a full and true account of the proceedings at the sessions of oyer and terminer, holden for the city of london, county of middlesex, and goal-delivery of newgate; which began at the sessions-house in the old-bayly, on wednesday, april . and ended on fryday, april , where were many remarkable proceedings, but more especially the tryal of james boucher, and walter archer, for killing the bayliff of westminster. as also, in relation to the person accused for getting his daughter with child: together, with the names of those that received sentence of death, the number of those burn'd in the hand, transported, and vvhip'd. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing f estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a full and true account of the proceedings at the sessions of oyer and terminer, holden for the city of london, county of middlesex, and goal-delivery of newgate; which began at the sessions-house in the old-bayly, on wednesday, april . and ended on fryday, april , where were many remarkable proceedings, but more especially the tryal of james boucher, and walter archer, for killing the bayliff of westminster. as also, in relation to the person accused for getting his daughter with child: together, with the names of those that received sentence of death, the number of those burn'd in the hand, transported, and vvhip'd. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) [ ], p. printed for t. benskin, [[london] : ] caption title. place of publication from wing; printer's name and publication date from colophon. some print show-through. reproduction of the original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng crime -- england -- early works to . criminals -- england -- early works to . trials -- england -- early works to . trials (murder) -- england -- early works to . trials (adultery) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a full and true accovnt of the proceedings at the sessions of oyer and terminer , holden for the city of london , county of middlesex , and goal-delivery of newgate ; which began at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , on wednesday , april . and ended on fryday , april , . where were many remarkable proceedings , but more especially the tryal of iames boucher , and walter archer , for killing the bayliff at westminster . as also , in relation to the person accused for getting his daughter with child : together , with the names of those that received sentence of death , the number of those burn'd in the hand , transported , and vvhip'd , at the sessions which began at the sessions-house it s the old-bayly , on the th of april , and was there continued till the th of the same instant : the proceedings were as followeth . edward odery was indicted and tryed , for that he on the th of december last , robbed the house of ambrose saunders , and took thence wearing apparel , sheets , pewter , brass , and other things , to a great value ; upon the tryal , although he pleaded not guilty , yet the witnesses swore that several of the goods were found in the prisoners house , and that he employed a woman to sell the same ; whereupon the jury ( after receiving their charge ) brought him in guilty . iohn belther , william best , and one butler , were indicted for picking the pocket of margaret king , on the th of february , of nine pounds , fifteen shillings ; the two former , upon their being apprehended , confessing the same , although one of them was not judged to be above years old , but there being no evidence against the third , only the confession of the accessaries , he was acquitted . richard osborn was indicted for stealing a tankard from one griffith iones in soaper-lane , but he not being able to charge him any otherwise than that he came and offered to help him to it again for a summ of money he was acquitted . mary sharp and mary motley were indicted and tryed for a burglary and fellony , in breaking the house of one mr. sadler , on st. thomas's eve last , and taking thence two farrendine gowns , six silk petticoats , several shifts , table-cloath , napkins , a hundred yards of ribbonds , and other things , to the value of fifty pounds , most of which they pawned at one smiths a broker ; but their plea was their husbands stole them , and compelled them to sell 'um ; the husband of the latter having been executed last surrey-assizes , upon which the jury so far commiserated them as not to find them guilty . william griffith and william hall were indicted for stealing a hundred and four gold rings from mr. william chapman goldsmith in barkin-parish , on the th of february , the manner thus ; a person comming into the shop to buy a ring , whilst the apprentice opened the shutter , the box was drawn out by reaching over out of the street , and the former of the prisoners some time after going to sell one of the rings , was apprehended , warning being given as is usual upon the like occasion , and upon further search , another ring was found about him , he having put it into his knife-sheath , but he alledged he found them , till coming before sir william turner , he confessed they were given him , and declared several of his accomplices ; but there being no other evidence than his against hall , he was acquitted , but griffith found guilty of the fellony . mary iones and margaeret shuter , having an indictment preferr'd against them for stealing a piece of crape from one mr. smith , a coat-seller in great st. bartholomews , under pretence of buying several yards ; but being pursued , the former was taken with it about her , but the latter at that time made her escape , but was soon after taken ; upon their tryal , they pleaded not guilty , alledging they found it , and that they were never in the shop ; but the proof being plain that it was taken upon them , they were found guilty of the fellony . mary harris was indicted for stealing two silver tankards , valued at twelve pounds , on the th of this instant , from iohn southey in thames-street , but there being no positive proof that she had them , the jury would not find her guilty upon circumstantial evidence . elizabeth cooper being arraigned upon an indictment for stealing ribbonds and silks , she confessed the fellony . uriah helder had an indictment preferred against him by one mr. benson of st. dunstans-in-the-east , for stealing about fifty pounds worth of brass-wyre , the evidence proving the sale of some parcels of wyre by the prisoner , but not being able to swear it was any part of that which was lost , he was acquitted . ioseph rudwell took his tryal upon an indictment for stealing about five hundred weight of lead and iron , the which he sold to a broker-woman near holbourn-bridge , and she disposing of them to stilliard-makers , they were owned ; to his indictment , he pleaded not guilty , and endeavoured to deny that he ever had or sold any such weights , but that being plainly proved , he layed it upon a porter , that , as he said , brought them thither , but the porter not being to be found , he was found guilty . george pain a pot-stealer was tryed for stealing near a hundred of all sorts , viz. pewter-pots , but for want of the brokers evidence that had purchased his stolen ware , he was acquitted . iames smithe was indicted for a fellony committed in st. martins in the fields , taking about three pounds worth of silks and stuffs , but there not being sufficient evidence against him , he was acquitted . two women for stealing tape , lace and stuffs , were indicted , and several of the said goods being found about one of them , she impeached the other , but there being no proof against her otherwise , she was acquitted , and she on whom the goods were taken , found guilty . george wallis was indicted for robbing his lodging , on the th of march , and conveying thence sheets , blankets , shifts , pillow-beers , and other things , to a considerable value ; which he disposed of to several brokers in long-lane , and other places , which being there found , and he upon the same apprehended , he pleaded he borrowed them , but that shift availed him not , for the jury brought him in guilty . a fellow that was chamberlain to an inn in st. giles's in the fields , entring a gentlemans lodging on the th of march , took thence a suit of cloaths , a sword , and other riding furniture , and conveyed them to a carriers , directing them to be sent after him to worcester ; but upon search for the goods , they were seized in the inn before they were packed up to be sent to him , so that by that means having notice where he was , the owner sent and had him apprehended ; who being committed to prison , and an indictment preferred against him , he confessed the takeing of them , but alledged that he only designed to ride a journey with them , and so to restore them ; but the excuse being looked upon as frivilous , he was found guilty . edward vvillmore was indicted for the murtherer of christopher todd , the manner , as it appearing upon evidence , thus ; the deceased drinking in the celler under the exchange in the strand , on the th of decemb. last , the prisoner came in , whereupon a quarrel happened about drinking , which in the end caused a scuffle , so that the deceased falling , his left thigh being infirm by reason of the perishing and splintering the bone for many years before , it either broke , or the splinters of the bones cut the arteries so , that by reason of the great effusion of blood , he dyed within weeks afterwards , but no former malice being proved , and it being plain that the deceased gave the first abuse , the prisoner was acquitted . hester bird was indicted for robbing alderman sturt of a gold-watch , silver-lace , and several parcels of money , which she did by the conveniency of a false key , he being a lodger in her house ; but she pleaded he gave her what she had , and made many slight pretences that he offered to force her , &c. but the evidence being plaid against her , she was found guilty . vvalter archer , iames boucher , and elizabeth fitz-patrick were indicted for the murther of vvilliam iones a bayliffs follower , the manner thus ; several officers having arrested the mother of vvalter archer , carryed her to an adjacent house in vvestminster , where under pretence of sending for bail , two persons came up , and after them four more with drawn swords , and forcing into the room , run the deceased through , and afterward stabbed him in several places , so that within half an hour after he dyed , the rest of the bayliffs hardly escaping ; the prisoners pleaded they were not the parties that killed him ; but the proof being plain , as likewise against elizabeth fitz-patrick , that she was aiding and assisting , they were all three found guilty of wilfull murther . iohn dicher , ann dicher , and elizabeth stocker , were indicted for robbing a house at deptford , and bringing the goods into middlesex ; as likewise another indictment for robbing the house of captain fosby ; of which fellonies the former was found guilty , but the latter was acquitted . iohn bant , a french-man , and late cook to his grace the duke of buckingham , was indicted for the murther of philip gilbert , cook to the right honourable the earl of feversham , the circumstances as they appeared upon evidence , being these , the prisoner going to a tavern at charing-cross , and sending a porter for the deceased , in the name of two french gentlemen , but he no sooner came , but they sell to quarrel , and the prisoner drawing upon the deceased , they fought , where after a pass or two , the prisoner swearing he should kill him , was as good as his word , for running him into the body , he instantly dyed ; the prisoner pretended the deceased owed him money , and that was the occasion of the quarrel , but not being able to prove it , he was found guilty of wilful murther . gilbert stock-dale , the person who was imprisoned for getting his daughter vrsula stockdale , a girl about years of age , with-child , was called to the barr , where he appeared to be years of age , and there being no indictment preferred against him , he was inlarged . at this remarkable sessions , eight persons received sentence of death , men and women , viz. john bants , iames boucher , walter archer , and elizabeth fitz-patrick , for murther , iohn belcher , william west , ann stubbs alias ditcher , and ann stacy , for fellony and robbery . hester bird , and iane freeman , were reprieved before judgement , and ordered to be transported . william griffith , iohn dicher , iohn smith , ioseph rudwell , katherine smith , elizabeth cooper , mary shorter , mary iones , ione hull , were burnt in the hand ; ordered to be whipt , and so ended this remarkable sessions . printed for t. benskin , . the arraignment, trials, conviction and condemnation of sir rich. grahme ... and john ashton, gent. for high treason against ... king william and queen mary ... at the sessions ... holden ... on the th, th and th days of january, ... : to which are added two letters taken at dublin the th of july, . preston, richard graham, viscount, - , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the arraignment, trials, conviction and condemnation of sir rich. grahme ... and john ashton, gent. for high treason against ... king william and queen mary ... at the sessions ... holden ... on the th, th and th days of january, ... : to which are added two letters taken at dublin the th of july, . preston, richard graham, viscount, - , defendant. ashton, john, d. . p. for samuel heyrick and thomas cockerill, london : . reproduction of original in university of michigan libraries. imperfect: film lacks t.p. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng preston, richard graham, -- viscount, - -- trials, litigation, etc. ashton, john, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (treason) -- england. great britain -- history -- william and mary, - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - ali jakobson sampled and proofread - ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the arraignment , &c. of sir richard grahme , baronet , viscount preston in the kingdom of scotland , and john ashton , gent. anno regni domini willielmi & dominae mariae , angl. &c. secundo . die veneris , . die januarii , anno dom. . the king and queens writ of habeas corpora was sent to the governour of the tower of london , to bring up the bodies of sir richard grahme baronet , viscount preston in the kingdom of scotland , john ashton and edmund elliot gent. to the sessions-house in the old-baily , london ; where they were brought between the hours of ten and eleven in the forenoon ; and , being placed at the bar , were arraigned upon an indictment of high-treason found the day before by the grand-jury for the county of middlesex , at hicks hall , in manner following : cl. of arraignments . sir richard grahme , hold up your hand , [ which he did , and so the other two . ] — you stand indicted by the names of sir richard grahme , late of the parish of st. anne within the liberty of westminster , in the county of middlesex , baronet ; john ashton , late of the parish of st. paul covent-garden in the county aforesaid , gentleman ; and edmund elliott , late of the parish of st. james within the liberty aforesaid in the county aforesaid , gent. for that you , as false traytors against the most illustrious and most excellent princes william and mary , king and queen of england , defenders of the faith , &c. your sovereign lord and lady , not having the fear of god in your hearts , nor weighing the duty of your allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , and true , due , and natural obedience , which every true and faithful subject of our said sovereign lord and lady , the king and queen that now are , towards them our said sovereign lord and lady the king and queen should , and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing ; and contriving , practising , and with all your strength indending the peace and common tranquility of this kingdom of england to disquiet , molest , und disturb ; and war and rebellion against our said sovereign lord and lady , the king and queen that now are , within this kingdom of england to stir up , move , and procure ; and the government of our said lord and lady the king and queen of this kingdom of england to subvert , change and alter ; and our said lord and lady , the king and queen , from the title , honour , and royal name of the imperial crown of this their kingdom of england to depose and deprive ; and our said lord and lady the king and queen to death and final destruction to bring and put ; you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott , the nine and twentieth day of december , in the second year of the reign of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are ; and divers other days and times , as well before as after , at the parish of st. clement danes , in the county aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , devillishly , and traiterously , with force and arms , &c. with divers false rebels and traytors , to the jurors unknown , did conspire , treat of , compass , imagine , and intend our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , ( your supreme and natural lord and lady ) from the royal state , crown , title , power , and government of their kingdom of england , to deprive , d●pose , and cast down ; and the same our lord and lady the king and queen that now are , to kill , and bring and put to death ; and the government of this kingdom of england to change , alter , and wholly to subvert ; and a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said lord and lady , the king and queen , within their kingdom of england , to cause and procure ; and an insurrection , war , and rebellion against our said lord and lady , the king and queen that now are , within this kingdom of england to move , procure , and aid ; and the same your most evil , wicked , and devillish treasons , and taiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid , to fulfill , perfect , and bring to effect , you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott , as false traitors , then and there , to wit , the said nine and twentieth day of december , in the said second year of the reign of our said lord and lady , the king and queen that now are , and divers other days and times , as well before , as after , at the parish of st. clement danes aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , with force and arms , &c. falsly , unlawfully , wickedly and traiterously , did propose , consult , and agree to procure and prepare great numbers of armed men , war and rebellion against our said lord and lady the king and queen , within this kingdom of england to levy , and make ; and that you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott , afterwards , to wit , the same nine and twentieth day of december , in the aforesaid second year of the reign of our said lord and lady , the king and queen that now are , at the parish of st. clement danes aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , and traiterously , did prepare , and compose , and then and there did cause , and procure to be prepared , and composed , several traiterous letters , notes , m●morandums , and instructions in writing , to shew and inform lewis then and yet the french king , and his subjects , then and yet enemies of our said lord and lady , the king and queen that now are , and very many other evil-disposed persons , and false traytors , to the jurors unknown , of and concerning the number , force , and condition of certain ships , for , and on the behalf of our said lord and lady , the king and queen of england , then , and there designed and prepared for the defence of their kingdom of england and their enemies aforesaid to repell and resist ; and how some of the same ships were manned , and of the names of the captains of several of the said ships ; and how the castles and fortresses of our said lord and lady , the king and queen , called portsmouth , south sea , and gosport , within this kingdom of england , were strengthened and fortified , and how the same castles and fortresses , into the hands and possession of enemies and false traytors against our said lord and lady , the king and queen , might be taken and seized ; as also of the time , places , ways , manners , and means by which , when , and where the same enemies of our said lord and lady , the king and queen , this kingdom of england might invade and infest ; and the same enemies , and the ships of the enemies of this kingdom of england , should fight against our said lord and lady , the king and queen , and their faithful subjects ; as also to procure , provide , prepare , and obtain against our said lord and lady , the king and queen that now are , assistance and armed men , our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , from their royal state and government of this kingdom of england to cast down and despose , and to stir up , promote , and procure the aforesaid lewis the french king , ( then , and yet an enemy of our said lord and lady the king and queen ) this kingdom of england to invade ; and to send ships within this kingdom of england , the city of london , of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , to plague ; as also to cause very many subjects of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , to rise , and war and rebellion against our said lord and lady the king and queen within this kingdom of england to move , procure , make , and levy . and you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott afterwards , to wit , the same day and year , at the aforesaid parish of st. clement danes in the county of middlesex , of and for the same your treasons and traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid , to execute , fulfill , perfect , and bring to effect into your hands , custody , and possession , then and there secretly , knowingly , vnlawfully , and traiterously did obtain , procure , detain , had , concealed , and kept two several bills of exchange then before made , for the payment of several sums of money to the enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are ; as also very many traiterous letters , notes , memorandums , and instructions in writings , then and there composed and prepared with that intent to shew and inform lewis then and yet the french king , and his subjects , then and yet enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , and very many other evil disposed persons , and false traytors to the jurors unknown , of and concerning the number , force and condition of the ships , for and on the behalf of them our said lord and lady the king and queen of england , then and there designed , and prepared for the defence of their kingdom of england , and to repell , and resist their enemies , and how some of the same ships were manned , and of the names of the captains of divers of the same ships , and how the castles and fortresses of our said lord and lady the king and queen , called portsmouth , southsea , and gosport , within this kingdom of england were strengthned , and fortified ; and how the same castles and forts into the hands and possession of enemies and false traytors against our said lord and lady the king and queen , might be taken and seized ; as also the times , places , ways , manners , and means , by which , when , and where the same enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen , this kingdom of england might invade , and infest , and the enemies , and ships of the enemies of this kingdom of england should fight against the same our lord and lady the king and queen of england , and their faithful subjects ; as also to procure , provide , prepare , and obtain against our said lord and lady the king and queen , assistance and armed men , to invade this kingdom of england , and our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , from their royal state and government of this kingdom of england , to cast down and depose , and to stir up , promote , and procure the aforesaid lewis the french king then , and yet an enemy of our said lord and lady the king and queen , to invade this kingdom of england , and to send ships within this kingdom of england , the city of london , of our said lord and lady the king and queen to plague ; as also to cause very many subjects of our said lord and lady the king and queen , to rise , and war , and rebellion against our said lord and lady the king and queen , within this kingdom of england , to move , procure , make , and levy . and you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott , afterwards , to wit , the thirtieth day of december , now last past , at the aforesaid parish of st. clement danes , in the county of middlesex , concerning , and for the same your treasons , and traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid , to execute , fulfill , perfect , and bring to effect , for one hundred pounds in moneys , numbred by you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott then and there paid , and deposited , unlawfully and traiterously did hire and prepare , and then and there did cause and procure to be hired and prepared a certain ship , and three men ; you , the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott , with the said bills of exchange , and the aforesaid traiterous letters , notes , memorandums , and instructions in writing , into the hands , custody and possession of you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliot , secretly , unlawfully , and traiterously , kept concealed and detained from this kingdom of england , unto , and into france , in parts beyond the seas , then and yet under the rule and government of the said lewis the french king , then and yet an enemy of our said lord and lady the king and queen , secretly to carry and transport , with that intent the said bills of exchange , traiterous letters , notes and memorandums , and instructions in writing there in parts beyond the seas , to the enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen , and other evil-disposed persons to deliver and disperse . and the said most wicked treasons , and traiterous compassings and imaginations aforesaid , to fulfil perfect , and bring to effect , as also to cause , promote and procure the aforesaid enemies of our said lord and lady , the king and queen , to invade this kingdom of england with ships and armed men. and you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott , afterwards , to wit , the th day of december now last past , at the aforesaid parish of st. clement danes , in the county aforesaid , concerning , and for the same your treasons , and traiterous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid , to execute and fulfil , maliciously , traiterously , and advisedly , then and there , and diverse other days and times , as well before as after , took upon your selves to very many other traytors to be aiding and assisting in the execution of the treasons , and traiterous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid ; and then and there , to wit , the same th day of december now last past , at the parish of st. clement danes , in the county aforesaid , maliciously , secretly and traiterously did hire , and prepare , and then and there did cause and procure to be hired and prepared a certain boat , and one man , to the jurors aforesaid unknown ; you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott , from thence to , and into the aforesaid ship , so as aforesaid hired and prepared to carry and convey . and you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott , maliciously and traiterously into the same boat , then and there did enter ; and your selves from thence , in and by that same boat , unto and into the ship aforesaid , then and there unlawfully and traiterously did cause , and procure to be carried with the intention aforesaid . and you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund elliott , with the same bills of exchange , and the aforesaid traiterous letters , notes , memorandums and instructions in writing , and in your hands , custody and possession then and there , in and with the ship aforesaid , did sail , and depart towards the aforesaid kingdom of france , in parts beyond the seas ; the same your most wicked , evil and traiterous intentions , purposes , compassings and imaginations aforesaid , to fulfil , perfect and promote , against the duty of your allegiance , against the peace of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , their crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that case made , and provided , and the indictment further sets forth , that long before the aforesaid nine aud twentieth day of december now last past , open war between our said lord and lady the king and queen , and the aforesaid lewis the french king was begun , declared , and waged , and yet is ; which said lewis the french king , and his subjects , and the men of those parts , then and yet , were , and are , enemies to our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , and to their kingdom of england : and that in the time of the aforesaid war between them our said lord and lady the king and queen , and the aforesaid lewis the french king , you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund ellyott , being subjects of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , as false traitors against our said lord and lady the king and queen , during the war aforesaid , to wit , the nine and twentieth day of december , in the second year of the reign of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , and divers other days and times as well before as after , at the parish of st. clement danes aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , with force , and arms , &c. to the aforesaid enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , unlawfully , and traiterously were adhereing , and assisting , and in execution , and performance of the same adhering you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund ellyott , then , and there to wit , the same nine and twentieth day of december in the second year of the reign of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , abovesaid , at the aforesaid parish of st. clement danes in the county aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , and traiterously did prepare , and compose , and then and there did cause , and procure to be prepared , and composed as also into your custody , and possession then , and there unlawfully secretly , and traiterously did obtain , detain , conceal , and keep , divers traiterous letters , notes , memorandums , and instructions in writing , to shew and inform the aforesaid lewis then and yet the french king , and his subjects , then and yet enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are , of and concerning the number , force , and condition of certain ships , for and on the behalf of our said lord and lady the king and queen of england , then and there designed , and preparing , for their defence of their kingdom of england , and their enemies aforesaid to repel , and resist ; and how some of the same ships were manned , and of the names of several of the captains of the said ships ; and how the castles and frotresses of our said lord and lady the king and queen , called portsmouth , southsea , and fortified , and gosport within this kingdom of england were strengthened , and how those same castles and fortresses into the hands and possession of the said enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen might be taken , and seized , as also of the time , places , ways , manners , and means , by which , when , and where the same enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are this kingdom of england might invade , and infest , and they the said enemies , and the ships of the said enemies of this kingdom of england should fight against our said lord and lady the king and queen , and their faithful subjects . and that during the war aforesaid , to wit , the aforesaid thirtieth day of december now last past , you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund ellyott , at the aforesaid parish of st. clements danes in the county aforesaid , unlawfully , and traiterously did hire , and prepare , and then and there did cause , and procure to be hired and prepared a certain ship , and three men , you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund ellyot , with the same traiterous letters , notes , memorandums , and instructions in writing , from this kingdom of england , unto , and into france in parts beyond the seas , then and there under the rule and government of the aforefaid lewis the french king , then and yet an enemy of our said lord and lady the king and queen , secretly , during the war aforesaid , to carry , and transport , to the intent the same traiterous letters , notes , memorandums , and instructions in writing there , in parts beyond the seas , to the aforesaid enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are to deliver , and disperse during the war aforesaid in aid of the said enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen in the war aforesaid : and that you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund ellyott , during the war aforesaid , to wit , the aforesaid thirtieth day of december now last past , at the parish of st. clement danes , in the county aforesaid concerning , and for the same your treasons and traiterous adhereings and purposes aforesaid to execute and fulfil , maliciously , traiterously , and advisedly , then , and there did hire and prepare , and then and there did cause , and procure to be hired , and prepared a certain boat , and one man to the jurors unknown you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund ellyott from thence to and into the ship aforesaid , by you as aforesaid , hired and prepared to carry , and convey : and that you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund ellyott , maliciously , and traiterously into the same boat then and there did enter , and your selves from thence secretly in and by the same boat unto and into the same ship then , and there did cause and procure to be carried in prosecution of the adhereing aforesaid . and you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund ellyott then and there with the same traiterous letters , notes , memorandums , and instructions in writing , in your custody and possession being , during the war aforesaid , to wit , the same day and year , in and with the ship aforesaid did sail , and depart towards the aforesaid kingdom of france , to the intent the same traiterous letters , notes , memorandums and instructions in writing in parts beyond the seas to the said enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are to deliver , concerning and for aid , intelligence , and counsel by you the said sir richard grahme , john ashton , and edmund ellyott to the same enemies of our said lord and lady the king and queen that now are to give , and yeild , during the war aforesaid , against the duty of your allegiance , against the peace of our said soveraign lord and lady the king and queen that now are , their crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . how say you sir richard grahme , are you guilty of this felony , and high treason whereof you stand indicted , or not guilty ? l. preston . my lord , i have something humbly to offer to your lordships . l. c. j. holt. what is it your lordship would say ? l. preston . my lord , i find i stand indicted by the name of sir richard grahme , baronet , but i do take my self to be intitled to another way of trial , as being a peer of england , by vertue of a patent before the vote of abdication was made ; and it was in a time when all your processes , and all your writs went in the late king's name , and all officers acted by vertue of his commissions . my lord , this is a matter that concerns me in point of life , estate , posterity , and all that 's dear to me ; and therefore i desire to know whether your lordships think fit to allow me my peerage ; i offer it , my lord , with all the respect and modesty imaginable . l. c. j. holt. my lord , i apprehend your lordship to offer against your being tried here , that you are a peer . l. preston . i take my self to be so , my lord. l. c. j. holt. my lord , you must make that out to the court. l. preston . i told your lordships the ground of my claim , and apprehension ; it is from a patent i received before the vote of abdication , when all commissions , and all process , and all the courts of judicature run in that name . l. c. j. holt. where is that patent , my lord ? l. preston . it is in the hands of the house of lords . l. c. j. holt. my lord preston , we cannot take notice of that patent ; if your lordship plead that you were made a peer by a patent under the great seal of england , you must produce it under the great seal , that the court may see what it is , and whether it be sufficient to justifie your plea. l. preston . i hope your lordship and this court will enable me to do that , by sending an order to the clerk of the house of lords , to bring the patent hither ; for it is in his hands . l. c. j. holt. my lord , that is not in our power : if your lordship take your self to be a peer , and would thereby stop this court from proceeding to try you , you must be ready to make it out . l. preston . i am ready to make it out , if i had my patent here , that would make it out . certainly there is some authority now in being ( i humbly offer it with all submission and respect ) that may order the clerk of the house of lords to attend this court , and produce this patent . l. c. j. holt. my lord preston , we are not to enable you to plead to the jurisdiction of the court. l. preston . my lord , i offer it with all respect to the court : i am concerned in it for my life , and my all , and if that be overruled , this i hope you will do before you go on , you will hear me by my counsel , l. c. j. holt. my lord , it is nothing that you have said ; for if your lordship plead this plea to the jurisdiction of the court , it ought not to be received without shewing your patent . l. preston . my lord , i desire my counsel to be heard to this matter . l. c. j. holt. i know your lordship has had the benefit of counsel , and i know your counsel must tell you , that what you say goes for nothing , unless you put in your plea , and produce your patent , that the court may judge upon it . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i have observed what my lord preston has mentioned — l. preston . pray mr. sollicitor will you speak out , that i may hear what you say ? mr. soll. gen. my lord , i say , i have taken notice of what your lordship has offered : it has been most truly observed by the court , that it is your lordships part to make good your plea , and it ought not to be expected that any court should help a person to plead to its jurisdiction : but because it should not be pretended that an advantage was taken against the prisoner for a defect in point of form , or that any thing was insisted on which should have the least appearance of a hardship , and that we may proceed in the most clear and unexceptionable manner that can be , i must beg leave to observe to your lordship and the court , how far this matter which my lord preston has insisted on has been debated and determined in another place . l. c. j. holt. so ; on mr. sollicitor . m. soll gen. my lord , upon the of nov. . my l. preston did make some claim in the house of lords that he was a peer of the realm ; the house of lords demanding of him upon what he founded his pretence ; he said he claimed by letters patents from the late king james , which passed the great seal before the time of the vote of abdication . the lords required that those letters patents should be produced , which being done , and my l. preston insisting upon his claim to be a peer of england , the lords thought fit that day to commit my lord preston to the custody of the black rod. the next day being the th of november , upon solemn debate of the validity of these letters patents , and consulting with the judges then present , the lords nemine contradicente did adjudge and declare those letters patents to be void and null : and by another order of the same date , they did order mr. attorney general to prosecute my lord preston in the king's bench for a high misdemeanor in presuming to claim peerage by those letters patents . and by a third it was ordered that the letters patents should remain in custody of the clerk of the parliament . thus you see , my lord , this matter hath had already a solemn determination in a court which had the most proper conusance and jurisdiction of claims in this nature . and they having pronounced their judgment , i did not think it would have been urged again in this place . i thought it proper to mention these things to shew how it comes to pass that my lord preston has not his letters patents to produce , and to satisfy every man that there is no hardship put upon my lord preston , by trying him here when he ought to be tried by another judicature . the lords have given judgment against these letters patents , and have ordered that they shall remain in custody of the clerk of parliament , and my l. preston is not a stranger to these transactions , and therefore if my lords council had been of opinion he could have made any use of them , they would have inform'd him he must have taken another course to have got them , and could not expect this court should make an order for him , contrary to the order of the house of lords , to take the letters patents out of the hands of the clerk of the parliament , and this , to help him to a plea against their own jurisdiction . i omitted one thing that upon the th . of the same month of november , upon my l. prestons humble submission and petition his lordship was discharged of his imprisonment and the house of lords were pleased to remit the order given to mr. attorney , for prosecuting him in the king's bench for the misdemeanour . so that i cannot but wonder to hear of this claim of peerage after that submission . but there is nothing offered to the court by my lord that the court can take any legal notice of . if my lord will plead any thing to the jurisdiction of the court , he ought to have his plea in form , and be ready with his proofs to make it good . mr. serj. thompson . my lord preston upon this last order of the house of lords has disclaimed any right of peerage when he made his petition , otherwise he had not been discharged . l. preston . my lord i beg leave — mr. s. thompson . besides , my lord , what my l. preston offers is a matter of record as all letters patents are , and tho out of his hands he might have had recourse to the record of the inrolment . l. preston . for that , my lord , i must humbly beg of your lordships a little time to put my self in a capacity to plead it in form. if you will over rule it , i can say nothing to it ; i offer it with all the modesty and respect imaginable . l. c. j. holt. it shall do your lordship no prejudice , my lord , god forbid but that you should make use of all advantages that you can invent for your defence . but , my lord , we must tell you what you have offered is nothing that we can take any notice of , unless you had your patent to produce , and we cannot give your lordship time to plead to the jurisdiction of the court. l. preston . then if your lordships are pleased to over rule this matter i submit , but i hope you will give me leave to make all the just defence i can for my self . does your lordship over rule me in it . l. c. j. holt. i suppose we are all of the same opinion , if not i suppose they will declare their minds . l. c. j. pollexfen . that which has been said by mr. sollicitor , was only that you and all the world may be satisfied that there is nothing of hardship put upon you . but the court , if this had not been said , yet could take no notice of what you say , unless it were pleaded , and pleaded in a legal form. but if the matter be , as the kings counsel have represented it , that this patent you now pretend to have , hath already had its determination in a proper place , this court ( which is an inferiour court to that of the lords in parliament ) cannot intermeddle with it . we cannot help you , nor can we set up what was condemned there . so that you can entertain no hope or expectation of our doing any thing for you in this matter , or any releif or help by such a plea. l. ch. baron . my l. preston , you may remember , ( i am sure some of us that were there present do , ) that you did decline further insisting upon this matter in the house of lords , and thereupon you had that great favour from the house shewn you , as the king's counsel have opened . l. preston . i did decline it , 't is true , my lord ; when they had declared it a misdemeanour , i made my application to the court , and therein declared i was sorry for having misdemeaned my self . m. s. thompson . if your lordships please we will read the very orders of the house of lords , to satisfie my l. preston , that we put no hardship upon him . l. preston . if there be any thing of hardship upon me in this case , it is because i think i have a right to insist upon this matter , and cannot have an occasion or power to have that which i would make my defence by . l. c. j. holt. your lordship shall have a fair tryal , if you will please to put your self in a condition to be tryed , by pleading to the indictment . m. b. lechmere . the lords in parliament have disclaimed you for being a peer , and we cannot make you one . l. preston . my lord , i hope your lordships will put no hard thing upon me , but give me leave and your lordships help to make my defence . l. c. j. holt. you shall by the grace of god have all the liberty you can desire to make your defence ; but you must first plead . l. preston . since your lordships are pleased to over rule me in this case . i shall say no more of it . i did not intend to offer any thing that might be an offence to the court ▪ l. c. j. holt. as i told your lordship before , so i assure you now again it shall do you no prejudice . l. preston . then if your lordship please , since the language is different in which the indictment is written from that in which it was read , and some things may be of different signification in both languages , i desire the indictment may be read in latin. l. c. j. holt. read it in latin. l. preston . i have one thing to beg of your lordship , before it be read . l. c. j. holt. what is it you desire my lord. l. preston . my lord , i humbly desire , because i cannot retain all the contents in my memory , that my sollicitor may have leave to stand by me . l. c. j. pollexfen . do you all joyn in this desire , for if you should each of you severally , have it read a great many times over , they that take notes in short-hand may take a copy of it as it is read , and a copy not to be allowed . l. c. j. holt. if we find they desire to be troublesome we can over rule them . l. preston . i would be guilty of nothing that may give the court offence , nor offer any thing that should take up the time of the court unnecessarily . l. c. j. holt. if they would have it read in latin , let it be read . l. preston . if it be troublesome to the court , i wave it my lord. l. c. j. holt. no , we do not think it troublesome . l. c. j. pollexfen . mr. ashton and mr. ellyott do you also desire to have it read again ? ashton , ellyott . we all joyn with my lord , and desire it may be read in latin l. c. j. holt. read it . ( which was done . ) cl. of arr. juratores pro domino rege & domina regina : super sacramentum suum presentant quod — & contra formam statuti in eo casu editi & provisi . l. preston . my lord , i am sorry i have taken up so much of your time , i thought the difference of language might have made some mistake , which i thought would be of advantage to me in my tryal : and for the same reason i humbly request you will please to order me a copy of the indictment . l. c. j. holt. my lord , that we cannot do ; it hath been frequently demanded upon these occasions , but always denied . i have always known it denied . l. preston . your lordship will give me leave to say what your lordship must needs know much better than i , there is a statute in the of edw. . that doth order a copy of any record to any prisoner , or other person if he demand it : and it has been granted , as i am informed in other cases , particularly in the case of colonel sidney . l. c. j. holt. no , my lord , it was denied in colonel sidneys case . l. preston . if i mistake i beg your lordships pardon . it is a reason in a late law made for the reversal of mr. cornishes attainder . the parliament , do there say that it was not a legal tryal , because he had not a copy of the indictment , and time given him to prepare for his defence . l. c. j. holt. truly , my lord , i do not know how that matter stands : that reversal of mr. cornishes attainder is but a private act of parliament . i never saw it , nor heard it read , nor can we take notice of it . but your lordship is to be tryed by the same methods of law , that all persons that have gone before you have always been , it has always been the course , that the prisoner should not have a copy of his indictment , col. sidney had it not , and i remember in the case of sir hen. vane in the year , he demanded a copy of the indictment , and it was denyed him , and it has been constantly denyed ever since in all such cases . l. preston . i humbly desire to know whether it was not granted in the case of my lord russel . l. c. j. holt. no indeed my lord , my lord russel had it not , i can take it upon me to say that , for i know all the proceedings in that cause . l. c. j. pollexfen . no my lord , never any man had it in all my experience . l. c. j. holt. some of us that are here were of council for my lord russel at that time , and we did not advise him to demand a copy of the indictment , for we knew he could not have it by law. l. preston . i am very tender of taking up your lordships time unnecessarily , but it stands me upon to do all i can to defend my self , may not i have my counsel heard to that point , because if it be a point of law , though your lordships are of counsel for the prisoner , yet i beg that i may have my counsel heard to argue it . l. c. j. holt. to what point would you have your counsel heard ? l. preston . to that point , whether i may not have a copy of my indictment according to the . of ed. . that is the point i would have my counsel heard to . l. c. j. holt. there is no such statute as your lordship mentions , that gives the prisoner a copy of his indictment . mr. jones . if your lordship please to hear me for my l. preston — l. c. j. holt. nay , mr. jones , you are mistaken in this matter : if my lord himself will shew that there is any such statute , we will consider of it , and if it be a matter that requires debate , we may assign my lord counsel to argue it , but till then counsel are not to be heard . my l. preston , if your lordship can shew us that statute , pray do ? l. preston . my lord i desire none if it be not so . l. c. j. holt. i have heard a discourse concerning such a statute , but i could never find it . l. preston . i suppose my sollicitor is here with it , there is such a statute my lord. l. c. j. pollexfen . the court over ruled it in the case of sir h. vane . l. c. j. holt. and so it was i remember in another case , and in none of the trials that have been since king charles the second came in , was ever a copy given that i know or heard of . mr. soll. gen. my lord this statute that my l. preston mentions , the of ed. . is printed at large in the preface to my lord cokes d. report ; and has been insisted upon in several cases in the kings bench , where the prisoner has desired a copy of his indictment , but a copy has been alwayes denied , and this statute has been taken to extend only to records , which may be evidence for the subject . l. c. j. pollexfen . 't was alwayes ruled that it did not extent to this matter . l. c. j. holt. my lord , 't is a misconstruction of that statute that your lordship thinks that it gives the prisoner a copy of his indictment : for that statute sayes that all persons shall be free to make use of the publick records , and take copies of them , because oftentimes the records are evidences of mens estates , and their titles . l. preston . my lord , an indictment i suppose is a record . l. c. j. holt. but not such a record as is within the intent of that statute . l. preston . my lord , i am tender of taking up your lordships time , but since all that is dear to me is at stake , i desire to this point i may be heard by counsel . l , c. j. pollexfen . my lord , i am satisfied you have had counsel with you , i have heard a great many . does any one of them tell you that this has been done ? if ever an one of them will come and shew us when it haseen done , you say something , but i dare say none of them will or can . mr. jones there , is as like as any body , but i believe he will not say it ever was done . l. preston . my lord i cannot say my counsel has told me so , but i have read such a statute my self , for it stands me upon it , and i believe there is such a statute , and it will be produced before your lordships . if your lordships will insist upon not allowing me a copy , i desire i may be heard to it by my counsel , for i take it to be a point of law , with humble submission to your lordships . l. c. j. holt. my lord , we must not hear counsel to debate plain points that have no manner of question in them ; it has been alwayes disallowed and 't is a setled point at law , and as plain as any whatsoever , that no copy of an indictment ought to be allowed to a prisoner in felony or treason . l. preston . my lord , there is a statute that sayes it shall be allowed to all persons to have copies of records , as well for , as against the king , and certainly the indictment is a record ▪ and a record of great consequence to me at this time ; and though my counsel has not told me when it was done , yet those that i have advised with , do say that the statute is express . l. c. baron . if any doubtful words be in such a statute , yet the constant practice must expound it , and since it has been so often denied , nay always , the law is now settled , that it is not within the meaning of that statute . l. c. j. holt. we must go in the way of our predecessors , we received the law from them , and must not contradict the received practice of the judges in all ages , nor alter the determinations that have been made in all cases of the like nature . l. preston . i hope your lordships intend , and i dont question it , that my tryal should be a legal tryal ; if there be such a statute that gives me a copy of the indictment , and the court deny it me . i am not legally tryed . l. c. j. pollexfen . if you please to name the statute my lord , it shall be read to you , but you are mistaken if you think there is any thing in that statute that will do your lordship service in this point . l. c. j. holt. see the . of ed. . read it . l. preston . here is a copy of the record in court. l. c. j. pollexfen . it is not printed , but it is mentioned in the preface to my l. cookes third report , and 't is mentioned no where but there that i know of : but whether there were any such statute or no non constat , for it is not printed but if it be a statute , it does not meddle with things of this nature , such as indictments ; for you must consider , my lord yours is not a case different from all other cases of like nature as to this ; but it is the case of all men that are tryed as you are to be . and if all people were to have copies of their indictments to make exceptions out of them before they plead instead of days of gaol delivery , the whole year would not be sufficient , but would be spent before they could be brought to their tryal . l. preston . my lord , i am to defend my self as i can by law , and not to consider what other peoples cases are . it is my particular case now , what the case may be as to any other hereafter , or what the general consequence may be is not to be considered , but if there be any thing that is legal that can give me an advantage in making my defence , i know your lordships are too just to hinder me from taking advantage of it . l. c. baron . my lord it is no new thing to demand it , it has been frequently demanded , but it has been always over ruled : l. preston . my lord , it is now desired , and a reason is given you that perhaps was not given before ; there is such a law. my lord ch. justice says well it is not printed , but it is a record , and there is a copy of that record in court. i desired there should be , i am sure . l. c. j. holt. if you have a copy of any record of an act of parliament , it shall be read , if it be proved . l. preston . nay we offer nothing if we dont prove it , but there is such a record , and the sollicitor is ready to attest it : pray swear mr. whitaker . mr. serj. tompson . swear him . araignment . you shall true answer make to all such questions as shall be demanded of you by the court , so help you god. is this a true copy ? mr. whitaker . it is a true copy . l. c. j. holt. where did you examine it ? mr. whitaker . my lord it is a true copy of the record , i examined it at mr. pettyts-office in the tower. l. c. j. pollexfen . upon what number roll is it ? mr. whitaker . there is the number roll and all upon the book . clerk reads . item pria les commons que come recorde & queconque chose en la court le roy de reason devoient demurrer illeoques pur perpetual evidence & eide de touts parties a ycelly & de touts ceux a queux en nul manner ills atteignent quant , mestier lour fuit . et ja de nouvel refusent en la court nostre dit seignior de serche ou evidence encounter le roy ou disadvantage de luy . que please os deiner per estatute que serche & exemplification soit faitz as toutz gentz de queconque recorde que les touche en ascun manner auxy bien de ce que chiet encountre le roy come autres gentz . le roy le voet . l. c. j. pollexfen . it is only copies of records that they shall have for evidence . l. c. j. holt. my l. preston , your lordship hears by this record , you may as well pray that an exemplification be made of this indictment as a copy , for so the words of this act run , it is only meant of those records that were to be given in evidence . but this indictment that you would have a copy of , is not now to be given in evidence nor to be exemplyfied , and so it does not reach your case . l. preston . my lord , this indictment is a record , and a record against me , and i think it is given in evidence against me . mr. j. eyres . no my lord , it is no evidence but an accusation , it is no proof at all . l. preston . it is always sworn unto . mr. j. eyres . the witnesses are sworn that testifie the matter of it to the grand jury , but the indictment it self is no evidence . l. c. j. holt. suppose a statute be doubtful , as truly i do not take this to be , we are to expound the statute as it has been expounded in all ages : it was never thought by any judges in any reign , that this statute did entitle a prisoner to have a copy of his indictment , but always held the contrary . l. preston . will your lordship be pleased then to allow me counsel to be heard to it ? l. c. j. holt. no , my lord , not counsel in a plain case : if the court apprehend there is any matter that may be debateable , or whereupon a doubt may be made , we may assign counsel , and shall ; but never in a plain case , where there is no manner of question . l. preston . my lord , here is a doubt in this case . l. c. baron . but , my lord , it 's not the doubt of the prisoner , but the doubt of the court that will occasion the assigning counsel . l. preston . but the prisoner may offer his doubt to the court , and your lordships are so just , that you will take care that the doubt may be legally resolved . l. c. j. holt. my lord , it is our duty to see justice and right done , and god willing , it shall be . l. preston . and i am bound in duty to my self in such a case to insist upon all advantages i can have by law. l. c. j. holt. my lord , no body blames you , though your lordship do urge things that are unnecessary , or improper ; and we shall take care that it shall not tend to your lordships prejudice . we consider the condition you are in ; you stand at the bar for your life ; you shall have all the fair and just dealings that can be ; and the court , as in duty bound , will see that you have no wrong done you . l. c. j. pollexfen . my lord preston , for this thing that you now mention , in all ages in all our books , it is the same thing , and has been in all mens cases that have been for their lives , denied ; and this statute that you bring is quite of another intent : for it is said , the records shall remain in court for perpetual evidence , and the aiding of all persons to whom they shall belong . my lord , this is none of your case ; for god knows , you expect no aid from this indictment : but this is meant of all copies that concern the estates of men , that they may have recourse to their records to make out their evidences to their estates , or to have them exemplified under the seal of the court for evidence : but to have a copy of an indictment , thereby to be enabled to consult with counsel , how to make exceptions to that indictment , is a thing that has been denied in all ages by all the judges that ever were . if any one can say the contrary , it were something ; but shall we now admit counsel to debate a thing that has been in all ages denied , and never admitted so much as once ? that cannot be expected from us . l. preston . the act says , that it shall be all records that shall be in aid to any person that shall desire it . here is no distinction made of what kind the records are to be : if it be for the aid of any person , it ought to be granted , and i may be aided by this record , if i have a copy of it ; and i think it is hard , when i am so much concerned in this record , that i cannot be helpt to it by this law. l. c. j. pollexfen . constant experience has gone according to what we say . l. preston . if that be law , and it has not been demanded , then they are not entituled to have the benefit of it : but now i demand it , sure it is good law. l. c. j. holt. it is no question a good law , but not applicable to your lordship's case : i suppose we are all of the same opinion ; if any think otherwise , i desire they would speak . l. preston . my lord , i submit to the court , but then i desire one thing , you know my life , my fortune , my reputation , my posterity , and all are at stake , and all that is dear to me must fall with me if i miscarry . therefore i take leave to represent , that i have had very short notice of my tryal , i assure you i have not had above or days notice , i hope you will not refuse me a little longer time before i come to my tryal , and i have had no copy of the jury yet . mr. sol. gen. if my lord please to plead to the indictment , that will be time enough to move afterwards , and till issue is joyn'd , it cannot properly be moved for . l. c. j. holt. it is not proper to desire time yet , till you have put your self upon your tryal by pleading to the indictment . l. preston . it was granted in colonel sidney's case , he had or days granted him after he had pleaded ; and in the act for the reversal of mr. cornish's attainder , it is given as one cause for the reversal , that he had not time to prepare for his defence . l. c. j. holt. my lord , days time is very fair notice , your lordship knew when the sessions would be , and your lordship might reasonably expect , that you should be tryed here , i think truly you have had very fair notice . mr. ashton . my lord , we have had days notice of our tryal 't is true , this day seven night at night we had notice we were to be tryed as this day , but days of the we had not the liberty of seeing any friend or counsel , or any body , not till tuesday night , and that we got with great application , and great charge to get an order for our counsel to come to us , so that though we have had days notice , yet we have had but days in all to consult with any body , and we never have had a copy of our jury till this minute . l. c. j. pollexfen . we see the nature of the thing , and i am sorry that i must say it is fit that we should take notice of it , perhaps the thing that you are accused of is not true ; but if it be true , you see what it is , that there are letters and papers preparing for a design to set all the kingdom in confusion : men that will venture upon such sort of things are not to condemn the law if it be a little hard upon them , for 't is the common preservation that is principally aimed at in prosecutions of this nature ; and if this accusation be true . 't is but just and reasonable , that all speed should be used to enquire into and prevent it , and as it falls out in this case , it is not in our power to do it . this sessions is set before this business is known , and this is an act done in this county , and therefore the sessions is the proper place for the tryal , and so you have the same sort of proceedings that all other criminals have , which are very many , though i hope not many of so high a nature , days notice you have had you acknowledge ; if my lords please we will indulge you as far as we can , and give you time for your tryal till to morrow , but you must plead presently . l. c. j. holt. my lord , we debate the time of your tryal too early , for you must put your self upon your tryal first , by pleading . l. preston . my lord , i hope i shall always carry my self as becomes me towards the court , but i do not really think , you have any tryals that are of so great concernment , and this sure is a fit time for me to offer it , for it may be , i have a great many witnesses in the country , and at a distance from this place and one another . l. c. j. holt. my lord , we cannot dispute with you concerning your tryal , till you have pleaded , i know not what you will say to it , for ought i know there may be no occasion for a tryal , i cannot tell what you will plead , your lordship must answer to the indictment before we can enter into the debate of this matter . l. preston . will your lordship give me leave to move it afterwards . l. c. j. holt. you may offer any thing then concerning your tryal , if you can shew any reason to defer it , it will be proper to do it then . l. preston . truly , my lord , i think one reason why my tryal ought to be put off , is , because i have a privilege of excepting against so many of my jury , but if i have not time to look into the pannel i shall loose that privilege . l. c. j. holt. we are not come to that yet , you are to plead now . l. preston . then your lordships are pleased to over-rule my claim of peerage . l. c. j. holt. my lord , we are of opinion you ought to plead to this indictment . c. of ar. what says your lordship , are you guilty of this high treason , or not guilty . l. preston . not guilty . c. of a. culprit , how wilt thou be try'd ? l. preston . by god and my country . c. of a. god send you a good deliverance . john ashton , what sayst thou ? art thou guilty of the same high treason , or not guilty ? mr. ashton . my lord , i have only this to observe , besides what my lord preston has offered , as to the business of the act of parliament , your lordships have been pleased to over-rule that plea ; but , my lord , i am told , that if an indictment be faulty , but even in a letter , we cannot be found guilty upon that indictment . now , if we never have a copy of that indictment , how shall we know whether there be any such fault in it ; your lordships , who are our counsel , i suppose have never seen the indictment , and suppose there be twenty faults , we have not the advantage of them , by not having a copy , and how shall we come to have any advantage , if neither your lordships , who are our counsel , nor we our selves can see them . it may turn upon that . l. c. j. holt. but we will see it when you come upon your tryal . l. c. j. pollexfen . that is a mis-information , for it may be such a letter as is not material , and it may be such as is material ; as , suppose , your name being ashton , the a should be left out , it would then be a question , what there would be to charge you . mr. ashton . we know that it has been so in several instances . l. c. j. pollexfen . it may be such an omission that may make it no crime , but we must not presently conclude that it is so , but you have heard it read , and so have we ; if there had been any such letter mistaken , it would have been taken notice of . mr. ashton . as to the reading , there may in the reading of the indictment be many words not nicely observed ; i suppose the indictment may be right , i say it is possible , it may , or it may not ; but if your lordships never see it , who are our counsel by law , nor you will allow us counsel to look into it ; if there be forty faults in it , we can have no advantage of it . l. c. j. holt. we must not allow you counsel to pick holes in the indictment , that never was done , if you assign any reason , we may assign you counsel to debate any matter of law that may arise , but never was counsel allowed to find out faults in an indictment , when you come to your tryal we shall try you upon your indictment , and if there be any thing considerable , you are to suppose we shall observe it for your advantage . mr. ashton . my lord , we never had a copy of the pannel of our jury , i pray we may have it . l. c. j. holt. that you cannot have till you have pleaded . l. c. j. baron . mr. ashton , we have over-ruled my lord preston about a copy of the indictment , do you think we shall grant it you when we have denied it him . mr. ashton . my lord , i desire we may have a copy of the pannel . l. c. j. holt. you must plead first . c. of a. are you guilty of the high treason , or not guilty ? mr. ashton . not guilty . c. of a. how will you be tryed . mr. ashton . by god and my country . c. of a. god send you a good deliverance . edmund elliot , how say you ? are you guilty of the same high treason , or not guilty ? mr. elliot . not guilty . c. of a. god send you a good deliverance . l. preston . my lord , i hope now it may be time to pray that my tryal may be deferred . l. c. j. holt. why would you have it deferred ? l. preston . because of the distance of my witnesses , and other things that would be necessary for me to have to prepare me for my defence ; and besides , we have not had a copy of the pannel of our jury , and the reason of the law does order , that because it gives us liberty to except against them , and that we cannot know how to do , unless we inform our selves of the men ; and therefore i beg , that i may have a copy of the pannel . l. c. j. holt. as for having a copy of the pannel , the court grants it . let them have a copy of the pannel . c. of a. here is one ready for you . mr. sol gen. there was direction given that there should be one ready . mr. ashton . we have demanded it every day since we had notice of our tryal . l. c. baron . you could not have it till there was an issue joyned , and that could not be till you had pleaded . l. c. j. holt. and as to the putting off your tryal , i know not to what time to put it off . l. preston . my lord , i am willing to have this matter tryed as soon as possible , for it cannot but be uneasie to me to lie under these accusations ; but some of my witnesses live in the country , at a remote distance ; if it may be next term my lord , or the next sessions ; for , if i have a copy of the pannel to night , and am to be tryed to morrow morning . how can i provide for my defence ? i cannot be prepared to except against the jury , and i am sure you will be tender , and consider the case of a man , whose life and fortune are concerned in this business . l. c. j. holt. to put it off till the next term is to remove it out of this court , that we cannot do , and to put it off till after the term will be too long a time . l. c. j. pollexfen . we cannot sit here after monday , because the term begins on tuesday . l. preston . my lord , this term is always a short term , and if i be tryed to morrow , it is trying me without giving me time for my defence . mr. sol. gen. my lord , there has been all the care taken that the nature of the thing was capable off , to prevent any complaint of this kind , order was given , that my lord and these gentlemen should have notice as early as was possible . as soon as ever mr. attorney general had had an opportunity of looking into the evidence , notice was given them , that they should be tryed , and that this was the day appointed for their tryal . but there shall be no contending in a matter of this nature , for a day . if it be desired , and the court please to put it off till morrow , we are contented , but there can be no reason to put it off for a longer time . as there is always a tenderness to be used , and i know will be , and as far as i am concerned , always shall be towards persons in these circumstances , so there is a regard to be had towards the government and the publick . i am sure if the accusation that is against these gentlemen is true , the government is highly concerned that this matter should come to a speedy examination , and that persons that enter into such designs be brought to judgment : the charge in the indictment is of such a nature as draws very great consequences along with it , it concerns no less then the life of the king and queen , the destruction of the fleet of the kingdom , and the invasion of the realm by the forces of a declared enemy . these are the things that the prisoners are charged with , and certainly there ought to be no delay in the searching into such matters as these . they have had a weeks notice of tryal already , and for many days of that week at least they have had as many councel to assist them as they desired , and all the sollicitors that they had a mind to , have had free access to them , so that they have wanted no opportunity to prepare for their tryal that men in their circumstances could have . as to what has been said with relation to the jury , the law indulges them in the number of their peremptory challenges without being put to shew cause , and the court hath granted them at the very instant of their pleading a copy of the pannel , and there is a reasonable time between this and to morrow for their making such enquiry into the jury as is justifiable and fit to be made . but if by time to look into the jury , it be meant , that there may be a time for tampering , that i am sure your tenderness of the government will not permit , you will take care as much that no such thing be done , as you will , that they should not be surprized . if your lordships are pleased , that the tryal be put off till to morrow , we will be ready to morrow to attend it . l. preston . my lord , 't is a very hard presumption that mr. sollicitor makes of our asking a copy of the pannel , that it is with a design to tamper with the jury . mr. sol. gen. i did not say so , but i said till to morrow was time enough to make a justifiable enquiry . l. preston . but if i be to be tryed to morrow , i am willing to be tryed to day , for i am as ready now as i shall be then . l. c. j. holt. it may be so , and as ready as you will be after the term : but i know not what your lordship means by expressing such resentment , that because you can't have what time allowed you would , therefore you will have none , but be tryed now . l. c. j. pollexfen . you may have time enough to prepare your self as to the jury certainly between this and to morrow . mr. serj. thompson . my lord , we that are for the king have given these gentlemen notice long enough to be prepared , if we should try them now , for that 's the time we gave notice for , but because we would indulge them as far as we could , we are willing that they should have till to morrow , and intending them that kindness , are not ready to try them to day , and there can be no pretence for them to put off this tryal any longer , for there can be no want of evidence as to the fact we charge them with , for all the evidence that we shall bring against them was taken from themselves , or the greatest part of it . l. c. j. holt. well , what time will you be ready then ? mr. serj. tompson . to morrow morning . l. c. j. holt. then to morrow at eight a clock you are to be tryed . l. c. pollexfen . my lord preston , do but consider you had seven days notice , and to morrow makes eight . l. c. j. holt. you had notice for this day this day sevenight . mr. ashton . but we have had only three days time to consult with our councel , though we desired we might have our councel come to us that day . mr. sol. gen. they were told , they must apply themselves to the king for that at the same time . mr. ashton . we did do so that night to my lord sydney then sunday interven'd , which was no day for business , and we could not have our order . on monday we could not have it till night ; so that it was tuesday before we could get any body to us . my lord it is a weighty concern , and all such hasty proceedings were thought very hard in the late times , and particularly the denying mr. cornish time , and 't is one of the reasons given in this kings declaration for his coming here into england , the hardships that the law laid upon men in their tryals , which he came to prevent . l. c. j. pollexfen . the hardship that was upon mr. cornish was , that he was taken upon the tuesday off from the exchange , and tryed before that day sevenight , and that was hard indeed ; but besides , he was taken about his business off from the exchange , i know not whether you were about your business , your lawful business , when you were taken , god of heaven knows that . and pray consider here is a matter of very great consequence on the one side and on the other : for if men be plotting against the government , to give them time to carry on their plots will be mischievous on that side . mr. ashton . my lord , till that be legally proved before your lordships , that is but a supposition . l. c. j. pollexfen . that will lie upon them to prove . l. c. j. holt. mr. ashton , we are to suppose you not guilty , till you are proved guilty . mr. ashton . then my lord , the law says we may except against so many persons , what is the end of the giving us a copy of the pannel , 't is not to be presumed we can do it by their faces , for what can i say to the face of one i never saw : we must enquire concerning the men , and that is a work of time , for some of these gentlemen i presume live eight or ten miles out of town , is it possible for me before to morrow morning eight a clock to send to men to enquire after them ? l. c. j. holt. no , nor is it intended you should . l. c. j. pollexfen . nay , if you intend to send to the jury-men , we have no reason to give you time . mr. ashton . i mean to enquire after the men , their lives , what religion they are of , what sort of men they are . l. c. j. holt. i suppose they are all protestants of the church of england , but suppose they are all strangers to you , and yet good and lawful men of the county , and there be no difference between you and them , then they are fit to try you . mr. ashton . 't is true my lord , but if i have liberty to except against , i ought to know something of them . l. c. j. pollexfen . yes , and inform your self as well as you can of them , but not to send to them , that is not to be permitted . l. preston . there is another point to enquire of them , and that is , whether they be freeholders or not ? l. c. j. pollexfen . we have neither you lordships affidavit , nor the oath of any other person , only an allegation . l. c. j. holt. my lord , you must expect your tryal to morrow morning , we cannot put it off , we are limited in time , the sessions can hold no longer than monday , because of the term. mr. ashton . then will your lordship please to put it off till monday ? l. c. j. holt. no , we shall not have time to do it , it may be a long tryal . l. preston . i protest to your lordships i cannot be ready to morrow to make that defence i desire , and design to make , and which i may make if your lordships give me a longer day . clerk of arraignments . here is a coppy of the pannel for your lordship . it was delivered to the lord preston , who gave it to his sollicitor . mr. ashton . my lord , we shall not have time to enquire into the jury . l. c. j. holt. look you , we are not bound to do this , but you have it as soon as you have pleaded . mr. ashton . my lord , it will take up or hours in writing of it out , and we must each have a copy . mr. sol. general . they are all joyned in one indictment , and have joynt-counsel , and joynt-sollicitors , as we are informed . mr. ashton . then i hope you will allow us liberty till monday for our tryal . l. c. j. pollexfen . the court cannot allow longer time ; the court here can sit no longer than monday , and here must needs be a great deal of business to do of the ordinary business of the sessions , and when that day comes , perhaps it will not serve to go through with the tryal , and then it must be adjourned till after the term , and in the mean while some are in hopes the king of france may come and determine the matter . mr. ashton . pray my lord , let no suggestion against us , prepossess the opinion of the court before we be tryed . l. c. j. pollexfen . i don't suggest any thing , but 't is in the indictment alleadged against you , and that you are to be tryed upon , and if such things be there suggested , as we would give you all reasonable time for your defence , so we must take care that the government sustain no hurt by delays . l. c. j. holt. it is observed by the king's counsel , that they are things of very great consequence , and therefore they press for the tryal . l. c. j. pollexfen . i cannot believe but that you will be as ready to morrow , as you can be on monday . mr. ashton . the government cannot be prejudiced by putting of it off till monday , sure . l. c. j. pollexfen . the evidence that is to convict you , lies all on their side that are for the king , and i cannot imagine , where your witnesses should be , unless they are in france ; but you had reason to exepect your tryal , being apprehended in the manner as you were , and to provide for it . l. c. j. holt. the want of witnesses is only a surmise , and a pretence , for there is no oath of any witnesses that they want , or who they are ; indeed if we had oath made that they wanted material witnesses , and to material points for their defence , that might be occasion for our further consideration ; but shall we put off a tryal upon a bare suggestion of the want of witnesses , sure that was never done . l. c. j. pollexfen . name any one particular man that is your witness , and the particular thing that he can prove , for if any of your witnesses do know any thing of this kind , it must be particulars and not generals ; if you will not name them , it is plain , it is only a pretence you insist upon for delay . mr. ashton . my lord , i insist upon the point of the jury , that we have not time to look after them . l. c. j. holt. then that of the witnesses is waved . l. preston . 't was i that desired time for my witnesses . l. c. j. pollexfen . but you neither name them , nor bring us any oath about them , or of any thing they can prove for you . l. c. j. holt. pray don't spend the time of the court , nor you own time unnecessarily , you must prepare for your tryal to morrow . mr. ashton . my lord , there is not a person in court , i believe , but will think it hard that we are so straitned in time . l. c. j. holt. the time you have had notice to prepare for your tryal , is sufficient . mr. ashton . mr. cornish's case has been complained of as a very hard case in this very respect , and we would hope , the king , that now is , came to reform such abuses . l. c. j. holt. you have been already told , wherein the hardship of that case lay , i am sure yours is not like it ; but take notice , we will be sitting here punctually at eight . l. preston . will your lordship please to let us have our counsel come to us , and our friends . l. c. j. holt. yes sure , you shall have all that is necessary for your defence , that we can allow you , but unnecessary delays must be avoided . then the prisoners were taken away by the keeper of newgate to the goal . sabbati xvii . january . this day between the hours of eight and nine in the morning , the court being sat , and those persons who were return'd upon the jury were called over twice , and their appearances recorded ; then the prisoners were brought to the bar. clerk of arraignments . you the prisoners at the bar , these men that you shall hear called and personally appear , are to pass between our soveraign lord and lady our king and queen , and you upon tryal of your several lives and deaths ; if therefore you , or any of you will challenge them , or any of them , your time is to challenge them as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . l. preston . my lord , i beg your lordship will inform me , whether if i have any thing to offer to the court , it is proper before the jury be impanelled , or after . l. c. j. holt. my lord , i don't know what your lordship has to offer , i think you have nothing to offer why the jury should not be sworn , for now your lordship has put your self upon your tryal , and are going to proceed in that tryal , and the jury are going to be sworn ; if you have any thing to offer , as to them , you may challenge them . l. preston . truly my lord , i have something to offer , but it is only what i did humbly offer yesterday , and that is , that my warning was so short , that i am not prepared for my tryal . we had not above three or four days wherein we might consult about it , all the former time we have been kept close prisoners ; we are now brought here to be tryed , without having time to look into the pannel of our jury . the pannel we had not till yesterday , and i humbly beg , that i may have some time to prepare for my defence . l. c. j. holt. my lord , this is that which you insisted upon yesterday . your lordship then said you wanted your witnesses , and your lordship did not then mention what witnesses you wanted , nor was any oath made of any one that you wanted ; and therefore the court over-rul'd you , and wished you to prepare for your tryal , and would not put it off : for if it should not be to day , but should be put off till another time , it must be the putting of it off till another sessions ; for we are streightened with it in point of time , for the session can last no longer then munday , and you have had convenient notice . l. preston . truly , my lord , i think it is hard when my life and fortune , and all are concerned , that i should be hurried on to a tryal , only because the court is streightened in point of time ; and yet that is the only reason that i can perceive , why such haste is made . i desire a little more time to prepare my self ; and i think it very hard i should be denied ; i must submit it to your lordships : if you will not allow me time , i cannot make my defence as i would . l. c. j. holt. my lord , as to the shortness of the time , that is no objection ; you have had convenient notice , as much notice as the law requires , and as much time as without particular cause shewn , hath here at any time been given in such a case . if indeed there had been any particular reason offered for putting off the tryal , and you had made it appear by oath , the court possibly might have put off the tryal ; but because your lordship only suggested you wanted a witness , naming neither person , nor place , or matter such witness should prove , they are of opinion no cause appears for such delay of your tryal . l. preston . my lord , i assure you i am not prepared for my tryal . l. c. j. holt. my lord , the court over-ruled this matter yesterday , it cannot be put off . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i would humbly offer your lordship one thing before the jury be called and sworn . by the law , these gentlemen at the bar have the privilege to challenge peremptorily to the number of ; which is so great a number , that if each of them severally take advantage of it , ( as they may do by law , and god forbid they should be denied any advantage the law gives them ) it will be next to impossibile to have a sufficient number of jurors appear so as that we may proceed in the tryal . l. preston . truly , my lord , we don't hear what mr. sollicitor says . l. c. j. holt. do you not ? then i 'll tell you what he says when he has done : go on , mr. sollicitor . mr. sol. gen. my lord , all that i would know of them is , whether they intend to take the advantage that the law gives them , of single and particular challenges ; for then they must be tryed severally : or whether they will be content that the same persons that are challenged by any one , shall stand challenged for all three . i leave it to them to take their own choice ; let them do what they please in it . l. c. j. holt. my lord preston , mr. sollicitor tells you what the law is , that every one of you may challenge five and thirty without cause ; and if the court should proceed to try you all together , and every one of you should challenge five and thirty , perhaps a sufficient number will be wanting to try you , the number challenged will then amount to in all . if so be you agree in your challenges , that what one challenges shall be challenged by the other two , then the court will go on , and try you all together , otherwise they will be forced to sever you ; therefore he desires to know , whether you will joyn or sever in your challenges . mr. sol. gen. take your own choice , gentlemen , and do what you think best . l. preston . my lord , the matter of challenging is so great an advantage to a man upon his life , that for my part i must insist upon that which the law gives me , to challenge as many for my self as i think fit , to the number that the law allows me . l. c. j. holt. my lord preston says , he will , as 't is fit he should , take all advantages he can ; what says mr. ashton to it ? mr. ashton . my lord , i expect the same advantage . l. c. j. holt. you must have it ; it is not proposed to preclude you from any advantage that the law allows you : if you insist upon that advantage , you must have it , and then you must be tryed severally . mr. sol. gen. then , my lord , since they are pleased to declare they will sever in their challenges , we must desire to sever them in their tryal , and to begin with the tryal of my lord preston . mr. ashton . my lord , i desire the liberty to be by when my lord is tryed . l. c. j. holt. no , no , that is not to be permitted . mr. serj. tompson . if you had joyned in your challenges , then you had been tryed all together . l. c. j. pollexfen . that advantage you lose by severing in your challenges ; you lose the assistance of each other at your tryal . l. c. j. holt. that is the consequence ; but do as you please ; set them by . l. c. j. pollexfen . it may be they do not so well weigh the consequence , therefore call them again . gentlemen , do you consider the consequence of your not joyning in your challenges ? you must not be by if my lord preston be tryed by himself , but must withdraw , and thereby you will lose the advantage of helping one another . mr. elliot . my lord , i desire to be tryed alone . mr. ashton . and so do i , my lord. l. c. j. holt. then , captain richardson , take them away . afterwards the court was informed that mr. elliot desired to be tryed with my lord preston , and thereupon they were called again . l. c. j. holt. gentlemen , do you desire to be tryed alone , or with my lord preston ? mr. elliot . my lord , if you please , i desire to be tryed with my lord. mr. sol. gen. does mr. ashton desire it too ? mr. ashton . no , my lord , i desire to be tryed by my self . mr. sol. gen. then we will try my lord preston by himself . l. c. j. holt. mr. elliot , the king's council do not think fit to try you with my lord preston , without mr. ashton ; and unless you will all joyn , you must all be tryed severally . mr. elliot . i can only answer for my self . mr. ashton . i am for being tryed alone . l. c. j. holt. then my lord preston must be tryed alone . the other two were carried back to newgate , and the lord preston was bid by the clerk to look to his challenges . cl. of ar. sir goddard nelthorpe baronet . challenged . sir thomas cooke kt. challenged . sir william hedges kt. challenged . james boddington esq challenged . thomas johnson esq challenged . ralph bucknal esq challenged . craven peyton esq l. preston . i do not except against him . cl. of arr. then swear mr. peyton . ( which was done . ) lucy knightley esq challenged . scory barker esq challenged . thomas cuthbert esq challenged . alban chaire esq challenged . john herbert esq challenged . hugh squire esq l. preston . i have nothing to say to him . sworn . c. of arr. john tully esq challenged . george ford esq l. preston . i do not challenge him . sworn . cl. of arr. henry whitchcot esq challenged . john crosse esq not appeared . thomas smith esq challenged . william withers esq challenged . richard cradeck esq mr. cradeck . my lord , i know not how i came to be summoned upon this jury ; for i am no freeholder . l. c. j. holt. then set him aside . cl. of arr. john cane esq challenged . william jacomb esq mr. jacomb . my lord , i am no freeholder . l. c. j. holt. how long have you not been a freeholder ? mr. jacomb . near this four months . l. c. j. holt. give him his oath . ( which was done . ) have you no freehold in the county of middlesex in your own right , nor in the right of your wife ? mr. jacomb . no , my lord. l. c. j. holt. then you must go on to the next . cl. of arr. joseph dawson esq mr. dawson . my lord , i am an ancient man , and not fit to serve upon the jury . l. c. j. holt. well , now you are here , for this time , serve ; we will excuse you hereafter . mr. sol. gen. my lord , we challenge him for the king. l. preston . my lord , i desire to know when any one is challenged for the king , whether they must not shew cause . l. c. j. holt. by and by , if there be not enough , they shall shew cause . l. c. j. pollexfen . you shall have all that the law allows you certainly , my lord. cl. of arr. thomas austin esq not appeared . richard paget esq l. preston . has this gentleman any freehold ? mr. paget . yes , my lord , i have in the county of middlesex . l. preston . i do not except against him . mr. serj. tremain . my lord , we challenge him for the king. l. preston . my lord , i humbly desire they may shew their cause . l. c. j. holt. my lord , cause is not to be shewn by the kings counsel till all the panel be gone through ; and then , if there be not twelve left to try , then they are bound to shew cause ; that is the law. l. preston . my lord , it is a thing of a very tender concern to me ; i desire to know , if it be not usual that they should assign the cause , when they challenge any for the king : for if it be not according to law , it may be a prejudice to me ; and i desire i may have counsel heard to that point . l. c. j. holt. my lord , shall we assign counsel to dispute matters not disputable ? tthere is not any more clear case in all our law , than that : if your lordship please , you shall have a book to read , that the king is not bound to shew cause till the panel is perus'd . l. preston . then i don't insist upon it . cl. of arr. walter bridal esq challenged . samuel-hodgkins esq challenged . thomas elton esq l. preston . i do not challenge him . mr. serj. tremain . then we challenge him for the king. cl. of arr. arthur bayly esq l. preston . i have nothing to say against him . sworn . cl. of arr. john milner esq not appeared . richard page esq l. preston . i do not except against him . mr. serj. thomson . then we challenge him for the king. cl. of arr. richard marsh esq mr. marsh . my lord , i desire to be excused ; i am not fit to serve upon a jury . l. c. j. holt. why ? mr. marsh . i am thick of hearing . l. c. j. holt. methinks you hear me very well . mr. marsh . truly , my lord , i do not hear well . l. c. j. holt. well , you may spare him , if there be enough . l. preston . my lord , i do not challenge him ; i desire he may be sworn . mr. serj. tremain . we challenge him for the king. cl. of arr. thomas harriot esq challenged . nath. wall esq l. preston . i do not except against him . mr. sol. gen. we challenge him for the king. cl. of arr. matthew browne gent. l. preston . i do not challenge him . mr. serj. tremain . we challenge him for the king. cl. of arr. thomas crosse gent. not appeared . robert bredon gent. l. preston . i have nothing to say against him . sworn . cl of arr. james partherick gent. challenged . john bayly gent. challenged . william bourne gent. challenged . henry gerrard gent. challenged . richard cooper gent. l. preston . i say nothing to him . mr. serj. thomson . i challenge him for the king. cl. of arr. john bignal . l. preston . i do not challenge him . sworn . cl. of arr. james firne gent. l. preston . i do not challenge him . sworn . cl. of arr. robert longland gent. challenged . edmund salter gent. challenged . john h●wlet gent. challenged . richard fitz-gerald . l. preston . i do not except against him . mr. serj. tremain . we challenge him for the king. cl. of arr. john owting gent. l. preston . i do not except against him . sworn . cl. of arr. mark lawne . l. preston . i do not challenge him . sworn . cl. of arr. thomas battle . not appeared . francis chapman gent. challenged . gilbert vrwin gent. challenged . richard bealing gent. challenged . edward fuller gent. l. preston . i do not challenge him . sworn . cl. of ar. john collins gent. l. preston . i don't challenge him . sworn . cl. of ar. thomas hollings . l. preston . i have nothing to say against him . mr. ser. tremain . we challenge him for the king. cl. of ar. william silcock gent. l. preston . i do not challenge him . m. serj. tremain . we challenge him for the king. cl. of ar. john preston gent. challenged . thomas wright gent. challenged . benjamin boultby gent. l. preston . i do not challenge him . sworn . then they were counted , and the twelve sworn were those whose names follow . jurors , craven peyton esq hugh squire esq george ford esq arthur bailey esq robert breedon gent. john bignal gent. james ferne gent. john owting gent. mark lawn gent. edward fuller gent. john collins gent. benjamin boultby gent. then proclamation for information and evidence was made , as usual . cl. of ar. sir richard grahme , hold up your hand — ( which he did ) — gentlemen , you that are sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause . he stands indicted by the name of sir sir richard grahme , late of the parish of st. anne within the liberty of westminster baronet , together with john ashton , &c. — prout in the indictment mutatis mutandis — and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided ; upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto hath pleaded not guilty , and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and his country , which country you are ; your charge is to enquire , whether he be guilty of this felony and high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ; if you find that he is guilty , you are to enquire what goods or chattels , lands or tenements he had at the time of the felony and high treason committed , or at any time since : if you find him not guilty , you are to enquire whether he fled for it , if you find that hefled for it , you are to enquire of his goods and chattels , as if you had found him guilty ; if you find him not guilty , nor that he did fly for it , you are to say so , and no more , and hear your evidence . mr. knapp . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , this is an indictment of high treason against my lord preston , who is indicted by the name of sir richard grahme baronet , and stands now prisoner before you at the bar ; and the indictment sets forth , that the prisoner , together with one john ashton , and one edmund elliot , as false traitors against our soveraign lord and lady king william and queen mary , not weighing the duty of their allegiance , the th of december , in the second year of their now majesties reign , at the parish of st. clements danes , in this county of middlesex , did conspire , consult and imagine to depose their majesties from the throne and government of these kingdoms , and to bring the king and queen to final death and destruction , and to levy war within this kingdom , and procure an invasion to be made here ; and that to bring their treasons to pass , they did prepare and compose , and cause to be prepared and composed divers treasonable letters , notes , memorandums , and instructions in writings , which were to inform the french king and his subjects , and other enemies of the king and queen , of the number , force and condition of their majesties ships , and how some of them were mann'd , and the names of several of the commanders of them , and how the castles and forts of portsmouth , south-sea and g●sport within this kingdom were fortified , and how they might be seized and surprized by the king's enemies ; as also to inform them of the time , places , ways and means how they might invade the kingdom , depose their majesties , and fight with their ships against their majesties ships , and cause and procure great forces to be raised against the king and queen , and fend ships to plague the city of london , and war and rebellion within the kingdom to procure ; and that they did knowingly and secretly prepare and conceal two several bills of exchange for the payment of money to the king's enemies , and got these bills of exchange , letters , notes and memorandums into their custody ; and afterwards , the th day of december , for the sum of one hundred pounds , by them , or some of them paid , they did hire a ship to carry them and the said bills of exchange , letters , notes , memorandums , and instructions , into parts beyond the seas , to , and among their majesties enemies ; and did also prepare a boat , which was to carry them to the ship , and accordingly they went into the boat , and went on board the ship with the bills of exchange , and papers aforesaid ; and being on board , they set sail , and made away towards france with those bills of exchange and papers , with intention to disperse them , and to perfect their said treasons . and the indictment further sets forth , that there was , and is a war between our king and queen , and the french king , and the people of those parts , under his dominions , who are enemies of the king and queen ; the prisoner , together with those other two named before , as false traitors , did adhere to the enemies of the king and queen , and to bring about this treason , they did procure such bills of exchange , letters , notes , memorandums and instructions , and did hire such ship and boat to carry them and those papers into france , and did go on board the said ship , and sailed away for france , with intention to aid and assist the king's enemies in counsel and intelligence , by those papers and bills of exchange , as i before opened unto you , and this is laid to be against the duty of his allegiance , against the peace of their majesties , their crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . to this indictment , gentlemen , the prisoner pleaded he is not guilty , and for his tryal hath put himself upon his country , which you are ; if we prove him guilty , it is your duty to find him so . mr. sol-gen . my lords and gentlemen of the jury , the indictment hath been opened to you at large , and i do not doubt but you have observed it : it consists of two parts , which are formed upon two several branches of the statute of the th of edward . the one is for compassing and imagining the deposing and destruction of the king and queen ; the other , aiding and assisting the king and queens enemies . treason , gentlemen , consists in the imagination of the heart , but because that imagination of the heart can be discovered no other way but by some open act ; therefore the law doth require , that some overt act , manifesting that intention and imagination , be assigned and proved . i doubt not but you have observed that there are several overt-acts of both these kinds of treason , assigned in this indictment . gentlemen , the general design of the conspiracy ( as will appear by the evidence ) was this : the king and queen were to be deposed , and this was to be effected by a french army and a french fleet. it will be easily granted , that nothing more dreadful can enter into the imagination of an english-man , than the destruction of our fleet , and the conquest of the kingdom by the arms of france . but yet it will be part of the evidence that we shall offer to you , that the prisoners , and others of the conspirators seem to be of another mind , for amongst the papers which were taken with the prisoners , you will see one , which is styled , the result of a conference , wherein they pretend to shew the possibility of restoring king james by the power of the french king , and yet to preserve the protestant religion , and the laws and liberties of the kingdom . they themselves went no farther than to think it possible , and i believe it will be hard to perswade any other english-man , that it is possible , unless one instance could be given , that the french king ever employed his arms for setting up any body but himself , his own religion , and his own government . i never heard that he did pretend to form any part of his glories upon the virtue of moderation , or self-denial . and there can hardly be imagined a greater instance of self-denial , than for the french king , after he had destroyed the dutch and english fleets , and subdu'd our forces at land , not to make use of his success , so as to add these three kingdoms to his conquests , and possess himself of the uncontested dominion of the sea for ever , but only to intitle him at so great hazard and expence , to become a mediator between king james and the people of england , and by his mediation , to establish the protestant religion , and the liberties of the people ; and yet as absurd as this seems , you will find this to be the result of one of their conferences . i did never think it was the part of any who were of counsel for the king in cases of this nature , to endeavour to aggravate the crime of the prisoners , by going about to put false colours upon evidence , or to give it more than its due weight ; and therefore i shall be sure to forbear any thing of that nature . but i think it my duty , to give you some account of the nature and course of the evidence to be produced to you , which consisting of several sorts , it will be in some sort necessary to open it , that you may the more clearly apprehend it , and with more ease make your observations upon it . gentlemen , we shall produce in evidence , as well living witnesses , as papers and writings , which by a strange kind of providence were taken upon my lord preston , and the other two persons named in the indictment when they were apprehended ; and therein this design that i have opened to you , will be made evident beyond all contradiction . as to the living witnesses , the course of the evidence will be this . one nicholas pratt , is the owner of a smack , called the thomas and elizabeth , he does usually entrust his wife jane pratt with the hiring out of this smack ; william paceley is master of the vessel , and has of late been made a part-owner , to protect him from being press'd ; for it is a priviledge that that the owners of vessels claim , not to be press'd . some time since , ( the witnesses will tell you the precise time ) this jane pratt was sent for to one mr. burdett's house in the city , where she met with mr. ashton , who desired to know , whether she could undertake to convey him and some others , with safety into france . she said , she did not doubt but she could do so ; and thereupon mr. ashton told her , that he and his friends were merchants and traders , and that they should make great advantage , to the value of a thousand pounds at least , if they could be there quickly ; their discourse went no farther at that time , but mrs. pratt was appointed by mr. ashton to bring the master of the vessel along with her , for he had a mind to discourse himself with the master , and they were to meet at the wonder tavern in ludgate-street ; and because there should be no mistake about the meeting , mr. ashton gave the woman a note of direction in writing , ready to be produced . accordingly by the th of december , mrs. pratt and the master came to the wonder tavern , where mr. ashton met them , and there they treated of the price to be given for the hiring of this vessel to carry them to france , and i think guineas was the sum then insisted upon , but no bargain was made at that time , but there was a new appointment to meet the next day , which was the th of december , at mr. burdett's house . the next day when she and the master came thither , they found there together ashton and ellyot , the two other persons named in the indictment , and there this matter was treated of with great secresie in mrs. burdet's bed-chamber . and they came to an agreement , that l. should be the sum to be paid to mrs. pratt for conveying into france ashton and ellyot , and two other persons ; so the contract was originally made for others besides mr. ashton and ellyot , and the money was actually deposited by mr. ashton and ellyot in mrs. burdet's hand , and a six-pence was broken , one half of which was delivered to mrs. burdet to keep , the other half mr. ashton was to take along with him , and when the master had safely landed them in france , mr. ashton was to deliver his half of the six-pence to the master ; which being brought to mrs. burdet either by him or mrs. prat , upon the joining of the two pieces together , the master was entitled to receive the hundred pounds . the next appointment was to meet at one mr. rigby's . house in covent-garden , and that was to be on the one and thirtieth of december , when the voyage was to be begun : and the tide not serving to go through-bridge till late , the appointment was to meet the later . when they , mrs. prat , and the master came there , they found only mr. ashton and mr. ellyot , but before that time care was taken to provide a sculler at surrey-stairs to be ready to carry them on board the smack , and the waterman was appointed to stay in a little ale-house thereabouts to be ready when he should be called . about ten a clock at night four persons came down together , and went into this scullen with the master of the smack , and made what haste they could through-bridge till they came to pickle-herring stairs over-against the tower , where the smack lay , and there went aboard the master and these four persons , my lord preston , a servant of my lord preston's , mr. ashton , and mr. ellyot . the smack set sail immediately after they were on board , and their haste made them carry away the watermans coat which he had lent them whilst they were in the sculler , and that accident was the occasion of discovering who the waterman was that carried them from surrey-stairs . after they were on board the smack , they were possessed with great fear of being surprised , they knew the nature of the business they were about , and the danger they were in if they should be discovered , and therefore when they were to pass by the george frigat , a man of war that lay in the river , they desired the master to hide them , which he did by putting them under the quarter-hatches , a place where they could not stand or sit , but must lie along on the ballast . when they were passed by the george frigat , they quitted that place , but when they were near the block-house at graves , they grew apprehensive , and they desired to be hid a second time , which was accordingly done . and they continued to lie in that place till they were taken , and it was a happy thing they did so , the place was such that they had not any possibility of throwing away their letters and papers , though they had made preparation for it in case of any accident , having tied them together , and fix'd a piece of lead to them , that so if they saw themselves in danger of being taken , they might easily sink the pacquet ; but being so close shut up in this place , that they could not execute their purpose , the papers were taken , and will be offered to you in evidence . gentlemen , captain billop by the order of a noble lord now present , was directed to use his utmost diligence to seize some dangerous persons , of whose design of going beyond sea for some very ill ends , an intimation had been given . he got ready a pinnace well mann'd , and went in pursuit of them down the river , and both as he went and return'd , he took care to search suspected vessels ; when he came to this , he demanded of the master what number of men he had on board , pretending he came to press men ; the master told him he had but three , and for those he had a protection . but the captain said he must be better satisfied , and must search the vessel , and in the search he found these four persons lying concealed in this secret place , under the quarter-hatches . as they were taken out one after another , one of the seamen observed mr. ashton to take up a bundle of papers from off the ballast , and put it in his bosom , and near the place where papers lay , he took up two seals , which after proved to be my lord preston's seals when he was secretary . captain billop being inform'd of this by that seaman , he put his hand into mr. ashton's bosom , and took away from him the bundle of papers with the lead fix'd to it . when they were put on board the captain 's pinnace , they all pressed him much , that he would let them go on shore at gravesend , pretending want of refreshment , they not having eaten , and the night having been cold , but he did not think that proper , nor safe , but told them , they should go on board the george frigat , and refresh themselves there . when they came on board the george frigat all the three gentlemen , and my lord preston in particular , were very earnest with captain billop to dispose of the bundle of papers , mixing extraordinary promises , with great complements . not prevailing there , when they were return'd to the pinnace , they renew'd their sollicitations , and one of them told him , it would be easie to remove all suspicion by fixing the lead to some other papers of little significations , which were found in my lord preston's pocket , which he might produce , and they would without difficulty pass for the papers that were taken . but the captain was too just to comply with this proposal . when they found he was not to be moved , you will find from the witnesses , that their promises were turned into threats , and they used another sort of language . when they were brought to whitehall stairs , upon their landing they gave money to the master and the seamen , desiring them to say , they were hired to go for flanders , and not for france . gentlemen , these things which i have opened carry a strong presumption of guilt , for englishmen , especially one of that quality of my lord preston , to go into the country of an enemy without any manner of passport , and in such a manner as they could not expect but to be seized for spies , unless they were assured , that their character was so well known there , that they should be look'd upon not as persons coming to get intelligence , but to give it , unless they were well assured of a good reception , when they came there . but there is no occasion to leave any thing to conjecture in this case , what is contained in these papers makes the design of the voyage beyond dispute . i think , gentlemen , after you have heard the evidence , you will be very well satisfied , that my lord preston and the other two who stand indicted , were equally concerned in the papers ; they were all alike earnest to preserve them from being seen , they all sollicited for the disposing of them , and promised rewards if they might prevail . gentlemen , these papers are of various natures . one i mentioned before , is entituled , the result of a conference between several lords and gentlemen , both tories and whigs , in which it was undertaken to prove the possibility and methods of restoring king james by a french power , without endangering the protestant religion , and the civil administration according to the laws of this kingdom . another contains heads for a declaration to be prepared , in order to be published when the french have had success at sea , and are landing , and that is filled with such pretences as they thought most specious , and most likely to amuse and delude the people . there is another sort of these papers which consists of letters . these letters are directed in false names , and are not subscribed , and it is not to be imagin'd it should be otherwise . yet , gentlemen , ( though that is not the present business ) the hands of the writers of these letters are very well known , and the subject matter of them will easily reveal to you for whom they were intended , for though these letters are most of them written under divers cants , some under the colour of trade , some of them under the colour of a law-suit for the redeeming of a mortgage , others under the notion of a match , and a settlement to be made upon that match , yet the real business is so plain , that you need but hear them read to see through the disguise . though they begin generally in the style of merchants writing to one another , or the like , yet towards the end of the letters you will observe expressions of duty and reverence ( terms which do not usually pass in a correspondence between persons of that sort ) sufficient to shew , that somewhat else was intended to be covered in what went before . gentlemen , it will appear to you , that some of the writers of these letters were of the number of those who were secured the last summer when the french fleet was upon our coasts , and you will observe they complain , that by reason of that restraint , the design was very much hindred , though they have endeavoured to redeem that loss of time since their discharge , and have carried on the business with more vigor than ever . in short , the design of these letters is to importune the setting out of the french fleet with all possible expedition : they say they must not suffer such a fit season to be spent unprofitably ; that the best time is between this and the first of march to come to a good market ; and if they come not before the th of march , all will be lost . in another of their letters they say , if the suit be well sollicited and managed , it may come to a final hearing before the end of easter term. they complain that there are several indiscreet letters came from st. germains , that turn to the prejudice of the design . those letters are not enough disguis'd to deceive the people here , but speak too plainly what is to be expected from themselves , and from the french. you will take notice , that the letters which you will hear , are all bills with high characters of the bearer : for which reason they write in such general terms , because the bearer was intrusted with the whole . some of the letters say , no particulars are or need be expressed , because he will inform them of every thing . others , that they could not write so much as he could say ; and that nothing was wanting but to allow him a full and a fit season to give an account of all the business ; and that they intirely depend upon his account of them and their condition . and , gentlemen , in one of the letters the bearer is styled a lord ; and to whom can that be applied , unless to the prisoner at the bar. in another letter , when they speak of sending the copper and the linen ( the goods pretended for carrying on the trade ) it is added , and what the meaning of that is , they must refer to the bearer , who was able to give them a particular account . i have mentioned so much of the papers , only that you might have a general notion of them ; that so when you hear them read , you may more readily make your observations . i assure you i have been as careful as i could , not to exceed the truth in opening any part of the evidence . but it is your part to see whether what i have opened be made out in proof . there is another paper that gives an account of their majesties fleet to be sent out this summer ; and there is an observation at the end of it , that it was hoped it may be out in march. but you will find by other papers ( and particularly by one of my lords own hand-writing ) that he was of another mind , that the fleet will not be out before june . gentlemen , the last sort of papers which i will mention to you , are some memorandums and notes , written by my lord preston ; wherein he gives an account of several . things of great moment ; which as his memory served him , are put together without connexion or method , being only to remind him of them when he should have occasion to mention them . he therein gives an account of the number and strength of the english fleet , how they are manned , and who are the principal officers and commanders , and in what time they will be out . he likewise gives an account of the number and state of the dutch fleet , and how that is to be divided and disposed of . and with relation to the french fleet , there is a particular memorandum , that they must be out at farthest in april ; that they must be out so as to separate the dutch fleet and ours ; that they must be sure to look in at spithead as they come by , and secure what ships should be in that harbour from joyning the rest . there is also a hint given of those that were most likely to come in to them . and there is advice in what place their fleet should fight ours . they must not come so high as beachy , where they fought the last year , but rather chuse to fight in the chops of the channel . there is an account of portsmouth , how fortified and garrison'd , that it had but men ; that gosport had nothing but pallisadoes about it ; and southsea castle very weak . there are memorandums of other heads proper for a declaration . there are the names of several persons , some of them with particular characters , and some without ; and amongst the rest , there is this character given of the clergy of the city of london , that they are the worst of all others . gentlemen , we shall proceed to the evidence , and first call the living witnesses , and then read the papers ; and when you have heard what the one can say , and what the other contain , we must leave it to your confideration , and submit all to the direction of the court. mr. serj. tremayn . pray swear mrs. pratt . jane pratt . who was sworn with seven or eight more . mr. serj. tremayn . mrs. pratt , pray will you tell us what you know concerning the hiring of a vessel , and whether it was to go ? and by whom it was hired , and for what ? pray tell your whole knowledge in this matter . mrs. pratt . mr. burdet , may it please your lordship , sent for me to his house , to hire a vessel to go for france , and asked me if i could carry them secure ; i told them i could let them have a smack that would carry them ; and if it please you my lord , we met several times at his house , and at last there was mr. ashton there , and mr. ashton appointed to meet at the dog tavern upon ludgate-hill ; i think they call it the wonder tavern . l. c. j. holt. mrs. pray begin again , and speak out . mrs. pratt , mr. burdet sent for me to hire my smack to go for france , and they asked me if i thought it would carry them secure ; i told them yes , i thought it would . and i came several times about it to mr. burdet's house ; the smack was not then come to the tower , as it did afterwards ; and then after they sent for mr. ashton , and he met me at mr. burdet's , and meeting at mr. burdet's , he gave me a note , to meet at the dog tavern upon ludgate-hill , and there ashton met , but mr. burdet did not come . mr. serj. tremayn . who was with ashton when you met at the dog tavern ? mrs. pratt . none but a man of his , as mr. ashton said ; there we sat about an hour and an half and did nothing : at length we went away , and appointed to meet at mr. burdet's house the next day at seven or eight a clock , and there we met , and the bargain was made . mr. serj. tremayn . what bargain ? mrs. pratt . i askt a l. and they told me that was too much ; says ashton , i will give you fourscore : says mr. burdet , pray encourage them offer them a l. thereupon he did offer a l. and we agreed for a l. mr. serj. tremayn . what day was that , can you remember ? mrs. pratt . we met on the monday , and the tuesday we agreed . mr. serj. thompson . what money was paid ? mrs. pratt . ninty three gnineas and six pence . mr. serj. tremayn . who was by when the bargain was made ? mrs. pratt . mr. ellyot was along with them ; mrs. burdet and the master of the vessel at the agreement . mr. serj. tremayn . what is the master's name ? mrs. pratt . his name is pasely , and there was six-pence broken , and mr. ashton took one of the six-pences , and mr. burdet ordered him to give his wife the other , and so he did ; and when the money was paid , mr. ashton brought it in a paper wrapt up , and said , we should see it told out , and he told it out there , and it was ninty three guineas and the six-pence . mr. serj. thompson . who did they tell you they were to carry into france ? mrs. pratt . truly my lord they said three , that was all . mr. serj. tremayn . what followed then ? did they give you any note where you were to come for them ? mrs. pratt . mr. ashton bid mr. ellyot write a note where they should come ; it was at mr. rigby's in covent-garden , at the seven stars , and there we were to meet at a eleven a clock at night ; and when we came there , mr. ashton was within , and went out and fetch'd in some company , mr. ellyot came and two other gentlemen that i never saw in my life before . mr. serj. thompson . mistris , you speak the breaking of a six-pence , what was to be done with that ? mrs. pratt . my master was to bring the half of the six-pence that mr. ashton had , to mrs. burdett , and then we were to have the l. mr. serj. tremayn . had mrs. burdet the other piece ? mrs. pratt . yes , mr. ashton had one half , and she had t'other . mr. serj. thompson . was there any provision carried on board this smack ? yes , there was a hamper and a trunck , which were fetcht from mr. burdet's house ; my man john fisher carried the trunk , and a porter carried the hamper , and i took care to see it put in the vessel . mr. serj. tremayn . when you came to covent-garden that night , what discourse had you ? and what inquiries were there made , and by whom ? mrs. pratt . mrs. ashton comes in , as she said , mr. ashton was her husband , and said there was some news from court , of having papers in a hatt , and that they had chosen some lord or other : something it was i remember , i can't tell what ; but says one gentleman that stood by , and said , i was chosen the last year , that signifies nothing ; and another said , i missed it ; it is only a christmas gambal , it signifies little . mr. serj. tremayn . what further discourse had they ? mrs. pratt . mrs. ashton said she was afraid they should have no very good luck , for the cock crowed . mr. serj. tremayn . was there any discourse what advantage they should get by going , or you by carrying of them ? mrs. pratt . they said they would help us to the earning of l. before lady-day , if they went this time safe . mr. serj. tremayn . pray mistris recollect your self ; were they to go to flanders ? or where ? mrs. pratt . they were to go for france : they were not to go for flanders . mr. serj. thompson . what time of night did you depart from mr. rigby's ? mrs. pratt . about eleven a clock . mr. serj. thompson . how did they go away from mr. rigby's ? mrs. pratt . i did not go with them : mrs. ashton kept me , and gave me the leg of a goose and some drink . mr. serj. tremayn . do you know any thing further ? mrs. pratt . no ; i think i have told all . mr. serj. tremayn . were you hired for france , or flanders ? i ask you once again . mrs. pratt . we were hired for france ; any place there where we could touch . mr. serj. tremayn . was there any particular port mentioned ? l. c. j. holt. if you have done with her , will my lord ask her any question ? l. preston . my lord , i desire she may be askt , whether she ever saw me before ? mrs. pratt . no ; never , my lord , but in the tower. l. c. j. pollexfen . but , she says , when they were at rigby's there came in two gentlemen with mr. ellyot that night . l. preston . i desire to know of her whether i was one of them two . mr. serj. thompson . my lord , she does not say your lordship was one of them . mrs. pratt . no , my lord , you were not one of them . mr. serj. thompson . then set up paseley . paseley , what do you know about hiring of this smack to go for france ? i think you are master of the smack , called the thomas and elizabeth , are you not ? mr. paseley . yes . mr. serj. thompson . then pray give an account of the whole matter . mr. paseley . the smack was hired of the woman , and not of me ; and when i came up to london she told me she had got a voyage over to france , if i was minded to go ; i said , yes : and she appointed me to go along with her to this mistris what do ye call um's house , this mrs. burdet , and when we came to this house there was no body within but mr. ashton : presently after came in mr. ellyot ; after they came in they told us the things were not ready yet , but they would be ready presently to carry on board ; when these things were ready , john fisher carried the trunck down , and the porter carried the hamper , and i went with them along to billingsgate and carried them on board ; and when i carried them on board i went to billingsgate again , and so we went along to this mr. burdet's house ; and so when we came up to burdet's house , ashton and ellyot were not there present , but we had been there but a little time e'er they came in , and then they came and said to my owner and me , you shall see the money told ; it was all in gold but one six-pence ; there was ninety three guinea's : and , after the money was told , there was a six pence that was broken in half , and the guinea's he roulled up in a paper , and gave them to mrs. burdet , and bid her lay them up ; and he gave her one half of the six-pence , and kept the other half himself ; and when i brought that other half that he had , or my owner , then she was to give the money to her or me . mr. ser. tremayn . pray what room of the house was this in at mr. burdet's ? paseley . it was on the left hand going in . mr. ser. tremayn . was it a bed-chamber ? paseley . yes , ' t was . mr. serj. tremayn . what time of night was 't pray ? paseley . about eight a clock . mr. serj. tremayn . what discourse had you with them there pray ? paseley . they asked me if i thought they might get well over ? i told them yes , i believed they might . mr. serj. thompson . did they tell you what part of france they were to go to ? paseley . no , they named no place , but any part in france . mr. serj. tremayn . well , go on , tell us what they said further . paseley . so , sir , they gave us direction to meet them at the seven stars in the little piazza's in covent-garden : when we came there it was eleven a clock at night , and they were not in the house when we came in , except t were mr. ashton ; but presently after ashton and ellyot came in , and they sate down ; and so in came two gentlemen more , but what they were , or who they were , i don't know , and they discoursed about papers shaking in a hat , and said they should have no good luck , for the cock crowed : and after this ellyot and ashton came out of the house and called me to go with them , and after we were gone out mr. ashton leaves ellyot and went away from him , and ellyot bid me go along with him , says , come master , come along with me ; he did not name any place whether they were to go , but it happened to be surry-stairs , and going down , he calls in at the corner house , which is an ale-house , for the water-man , and bid me go before to the water-side ; and when we came thither the water-man steps into his boat , and i after him ; and when i was in the boat i went into the stern , and by that time i was seated in the stern there came down four men ; but i never saw my lord and his man before they came into the wherry . l. c. j. holt. who came into the wherry ? paseley . there was all those four , mr. ashton , mr. ellyot , my lord , and his man. l. c. j. holt. where was this do you say ? paseley . at surry-stairs , there the boat was . mr. serj. tremayn . was the prisoner at the bar one of them ? paseley . yes , he was . l. c. j. holt. well , what did you do then ? paseley . after we were seated in the boat at surry-stairs we put off , and went down through bridge , and going through bridge we came on board the vessel , riding just against the tower almost , and we went all on board ; and when we came on board , my men were all asleep , and being asleep , i called them out of the cabin to hale up the anchor ; and there being very little wind stirring , we could not go very far , but came just below the half-way tree , and then we stopt , and i ordered to drop the anchor for fear of the vessels in the river : and the next morning about eight a clock we weighed our anchor again , and went on till we came near to the george man of war , and there they all of them hid . mr. serj. tremayn . who ? paseley . all of them , my lord. there was ashton , and ellyot , and my lord preston , and his man. mr. serj. thompson . in what place did they hide ? paseley . in the quarter-hatches , under the hatches where we lie . mr. serj. thompson . did they desire you to hide them ? paseley . yes , they did . mr. serj. thompson . what did they say ? paseley . they said , that if there should come any boat on board to press , i should shew them my protection ; and so there came no boat then . mr. ser. tremayn . how big is that place that they hid in ? paseley . 't is in the quarter under , near the cabin-hatches . mr. serj. tremayn . i ask you what kind of place it is ? paseley . they cannot sit upright , nor stand upright , but they are fain to lie along , or lean upon their elbows . mr. serj. thompson . well , go on , what happened afterwards ? paseley . after that we were past the man of war , they came up and sate in the cabin where we used to eat our victuals ; and when we came to gravesend , over against the dock-house , they would go down again and hide , and did so till we passed the block-house , and then they were for coming up again , and then i saw a boat coming about tilbury which made towards us , and thereupon they ducked down again , and the hatches were laid down upon them , and there they remained till they were taken . mr. serj. tremayn . where were they taken ? paseley . they were taken between the north block-house and the little — mr. serj. tremayn . but i mean in what part of the ship. paseley . they were taken in that little place where they were hid . mr. serj. tremayn . were the hatches shut down upon them ? paseley . yes , they were . mr. ser. tremayn . how long had they been hid before they were taken ? paseley . a quarter of an hour , or there abouts . sir w. w. did they desire to be hid there ? paseley . yes , they did and they were hid there . mr. serj. thompson . now tell us , after such time as they were taken , what they said , and what you observed . paseley . after they were taken they said nothing to me , my lord , nor none of them did speak to me after the boat had taken them . mr. serj. thompson . but what happened after they were taken ? paseley . after they were taken , captain billop ordered them to go into the boat , and us with them ; and when we came to white-hall stairs one of them said to me , master , when you come upon your examination , ●ay you were bound to flanders , and not for france . mr. serj. thompson . which was that that said so ? paseley . 't was ellyot , and he gave me half a crown to bear my expences that night , and said he would remember to take care of us afterwards . mr. serj. thompson . did they give any money to the sea-men ? paseley . yes , ashton gave one of my men half a crown , and bid him say he was bound for flanders , and not for france ; and my lords man gave my other man half a crown . l. c. j. holt. was my lord preston by when that money was given ? paseley . my lord was upon the bridge , but not near me . mr. serj. thompson . if my lord have any questions to ask him , we have done with him for the present . l. preston . no , my lord , i have no questions to ask him . l. c. j. pollexfen . was my lord preston by when the direction was given you to say you were to go to flanders , and not to france ? paseley . i say he was upon the bridge , but was nor near me . mr. serj. tremayn . what discourse had you on board with any of them ? paseley . very little . they askt me if i thought they should go clear ? and i told them yes , i thought they might . mr. serj. tremayn . clear of what ? pasely . clear of the vessels searching : they examined me that night i was at the seven stars , if i knew the way of the swing on the back of the channel , to go clear of the town . i told them i did not know the way by the back of the sands by margaret's , but the swing would not keep them clear of the town . mr. serj. tremayn . was there a note written whether you were to come ? pasely . yes , there was note written to meet them at the seven stars in the little piazza's l. c. j. pollexfen . where about is burdet's house ? pasely . that is in queen-street in the city . mr. serj. tremayn . you pasely , did the waterman that brought them on board , leave two coats behind him ? pasely . yes , the waterman did leave two coats ; and i put them into my chest , and afterwards they broke open my chest , and took them out , and brought them to my lord chief justices . mr. serj. tremayn . then we will next produce that waterman . set up charles betsworth . mr. serj. thompson . come , will you give us an account who you carried on board a smack , and what hapned . betsworth . i was going over the water from surry stairs about seven or eight a clock , and a gentleman at the stairs call'd sculler , and ask'd me if i would carry him down the river ; said i , how far , says he to the tower ; said i 't is against tide , and i can't carry you down so low ; he said he would stay till the tide turn'd ; said i , if i be out of my bed so long , i deserve to be well paid for it ; if you will give me half a crown i 'll carry you down ; says he i 'll give it you ; so then i came a-shore , and he ask'd me what my name was , i told him charles betsworth ; says he , will you be sure to stay for us ; yes , said i , if you will be sure to come : if i be not at the stairs , i 'll be at that ale-house there in the corner ; so i staid , and : carried over a fare or two over the water ; and about a eleven a clock , as i was sitting in the house , a gentleman comes , and calls charles , and so out i went to my boat , and took them in . there was one man , as i suppose , in the stern , and he that called me out followed me down , and by and by came three more into my boat ; one of them had a whitish cloak on , and the other a gray loose coat , and a red bag , of the quantity of a peck ; and so we put off , and rowed away ; and just under the temple wall , which was all the words i heard from them , that i can remember ; says one gentleman , when do your hear the king goes away ? and another made answer and said , a tuesday : so we rowed down through bridge ; and when we were through bridge , they asked where the vessel lay ; and he that was in the stern said , it was southwark side , over against the tower , and bid me row over thither . and when we came just below battle-bridge , that man said , that is she that rides a head of us , and i look'd , and she had a pennant up ; so they were put on board ; and as soon as they were on board , she went off , and i rowed up to the bridge , and went through bridge , and came up as far as and there i staid and took my scull and my staff out of my boat ; and when i took them out , i missed my clothes ; says i , god bless me , i have lost my clothes ; but then i thought it was but a still tide , and therefore i would try if i could overtake them ; for i thought they could not be got far , there being little or no wind ; so i went down to the place where the vessel lay , and she was gone ; and i enquired of several smacks that lay there , but could hear nothing , and i rowed as low as limas reach ; and about black wall and limas reach , i came up to a smack , that i supposed was she , and i cry'd out , ho the smack , and they answered me so ; i asked them if i did not bring a fare a-board that smack a while a go ; then they said no ; i told them i had brought a fare on board some smack that lay about horsleydown and pickle-herring stairs , and they had got two coats of mine , which i had forgotten , and it had a pennant up when they went on board , but this had none ; so i rowed on further , till i came as far as berking sherf ; and i thought there being so little wind that none could be gone beyond me ; and therefore waited to see a smack with a pennant coming down , but i could not meet with it , and there i lay all night in my wastcoat ; and the next day i came back to greenwich ; and as i came along , i went on board several vessels to enquire , because i took her for an attendant upon a man of war , but i could not hear of my clothes , till last friday was seven-night , two watermen came , and brought me the clothes i lost . l. c. j. then you have your clothes again ? betsworth . yes , i have . mr. serj. thompson . pray look upon that gentleman there , my lord preston , are you sure that he was one of them that was in your boat ? betsworth . i can't tell that ever i saw him in my life before . mr. serj. tremayn . you pasely , i ask you , was my lord preston one of the gentlemen the waterman brought on board your smack ? pasely . yes he was . mr. serj. tremayn . is that the waterman ? pasely . truly my lord i can't tell ; but the waterman's coat was left on board mr. serj. tremayn . then let me ask you another question , had you a pennant ? pasely . yes i had when i came on board . mr. serj. tremayn . did you take in your pennant ? pasely . yes , i did afterwards . mr. serj. tremayn . why did you take it in ? pasely . they asked me if there was a pennant ; and i told them yes ; and they bid me take it in ? mr. serj. tremayn . who bid you take it in . pasely . ellyot did ; so we took it down . mr. serj. thompson . will my lord ask betsworth any questions ? l. preston . no , i have nothing to say to him . mr. serj. tremayn . what did they carry a-board with them , pasely ? pasely . they had nothing a-board but the trunk and hamper , that were brought down before from burdet's house : and there was nothing brought in the boat but only a leather bag. mr. serj. tremayn . then set up fisher , i think his name is john fisher . you were one of the seamen that did belong to the smack , i think . fisher . yes , i was . mr. serj. thompson . pray then tell us , who were brought thither ; and what happened upon it . fisher . about six hours before they came on board us , our master came himself on board , and took me along with him ; but whither i was to go then i did not know . he carryed me to a house in the city , and there gave me a small trunk to carry , and a hamper to a porter ; and we went away with them ; and he bid us , at billing sgate , carry them a-board , which we did . l. c. j. holt. when was the trunk and hamper brought on board ? fisher . about six or seven a clock at night , on wednesday , i think . l. c. j. holt. well , and what followed ? fisher . my lord , and mr. ashton , and mr. ellyot , and my lords man , and the master came on board between eleven and twelve : there were no more came on board that i know of ; but we were asleep when they came on board ; and immediately our master ordered us to hale up the anchor . now there was but little wind stirring ; and by that time we were faln down as low as half-way tree , it being still flood , we could go no farther : so there we were ordered to stop , and we lay by till morning ; and about eight in the morning we weighed anchor again , and about nine , when we came to the george man of war they hid , they desired to go down into the quarters , and we laid the hatches upon them . mr. serj. tremayn . what kind of place is it that they hid in ? fisher . they could not stand upright , nor sit upright , but they must lie along or lean upon their elbows . so when when we were got below the ship , they came up again into the cabbin : and when we came at gravesend near the block house , then they hid again till we were below the block-house ; and then we spyed a boat coming , which made them to keep below ; and there they continued till captain billop took them . mr. serj. tremayn . were they all four there ? fisher . yes all four . mr. serj. tremayn . after they were taken , what said they ? fisher . after such time as they were taken , and come up to whitehall stairs , captain ashton gave me a half-crown-piece , and bid me say they were going to flanders , and not to france . mr. serj. tremain . but whether were you going ? fisher . truly , i did not know where we were to go , till since we came on shoar . i understood nothing till they hid ; and then indeed i thought we were going to france . mr. serj. tremayn . when did any body tell you you were to go to france ? fisher . since we came on shoar . mr. serj. thompson . will my lord ask him any questions ? l. preston . no. mr. serj. tremayn . then the next witness we call is one amonds , pray tell us what you know of this matter . amonds . may it please you my lord , i know nothing concerning my masters business , but all that i know of this business is , that they came on board about twelve a clock at night , and i was then asleep in the cabin , and hearing some come on board , and my master call , i looked out , and there were three or four centlemen and my master , and he ordered us to set sail immediately , and make our way down as fast as we could ; there was little or no wind ; so that when we came down to the half way tree , we were forced to come to an anchor , and there we rid at anchor till it was broad day , when there was a brave gale to the westward , and by that time we got down to long reach ; about nine a clock we came to the george frigat , a man of war , and they understanding that , desired to hide these gentlemen . l. c. j. holt. what gentlemen ? amonds . my lord preston , mr. ashton , and mr. ellyot , and the other gentleman that was with them . l. c. j. pollexfen . look upon my lord there , was he one ; amonds . yes , that gentleman was one . l. c. j. holt. well , go on . amonds . and so sir , after we were passed the frigat , they came up again , and did not design to go down any more till they see some other danger . when we came almost to gravesend , they went down again : when we were past the block-house i was at the helm , and they were resolving to go to dinner , and bid that man , my fellow , to reach them some victuals out of the hamper : and while he was reaching them some victuals , i see the pinnace coming towards us ; sayd i , here is a pinnace coming a-board ; says my lord and they , we must go down again and hide , and so they did go down again ; we apprehended that they were coming a-board to press us , and they had no mind to be seen . when the pinnace came near , they waved to us in this manner , as much as to bid us stay ; so we laid the sail by , and staid for them till they came up ; and when the captain came on board , says he , this is worth our coming on board , here are a couple of brisk seamen will do the king service ; i must have them , i think ; says he , i hope not so , noble captain ; says he , have you any thing to keep your selves clear ? yes , says our master ? i am sorry for that says the captain ; what is it ? says the master , i have a protection ; says the captain , let us see your protection : so the master pulls out his protection , and shews it : well , says the captain , i must look a little further , and away he goes into the cabin , and takes up the hatches where these gentlemen were ; says the captain ; hye , hye , who is here ? turn out , says he ; but i suppose they did not make so much hast as the captain expected ; so he called some of his men on board ; and when they came on board , my lord came out , and the rest of the gentlemen ; and says my lord to the captain , i hope you will be so kind as not to take any thing from us : says he , i' ll meddle with nothing but papers , 't is papers i look for , and put his hands in both his pockets , and pulled out papers , and put them into his own pocket , but whether they were new or old i can't tell ; and there was a watch likewise , but that he gave my lord again , and said , i' ll meddle with nothing but papers : then he searcht mr. ellyot , and mr. ashton was the last that came out , and there was one of my lords watermen in the cabin with him ; and , says he , an please you noble captain , that gentleman puts something in his bosom : says the captain , what did you put in your bosom , sir ; nothing , says he , but my handkerchief . l. c. j. holt. who said so ? amonds . mr. ashton , and shews him his handkerchief , and afterwards the captain put his hand in mr. ashton's bosom , and pulled it out . mr. serj. thompson . what did he pull out ? amonds . a roul of papers with a piece of lead to it . mr. serj. thompson . did you see the lead fix'd to the papers . amonds . i did see it fix'd to the packthred that tyed the papers . mr. serj. tremayn . what sort of place is it in which they were taken ? amonds . they could not sit nor stand upright in it . mr. serj. tremayn . had you any money given you ? amonds . i had half a crown given me by my lord's man. l. c. j. holt. who was it gave you the money ? amonds . it was my lord's man , he that was on board the ship ; he gave me half a crown in whitehall , and said , i should say we were bound for flanders , and not for france ; but who the half crown came from i can't tell , my lord said nothing to me at all . mr. serj. tremayn . did you hear any discourse as they came down ? amond . no , i did not mind any thing of discourse , for i never came among them , unless it were at the hour of watching . l. preston . pray did i say any thing to you at whitehall ? l. c. j. holt. my lord , your way is to propose your questions to the court , and they will ask them for you . l. preston . my lord i desire to ask him if i said any thing to him at whitehall . l. c. j. holt. what say you ? did my lord preston say any thing to you at whitehall ? amond . no my lord , he never said any thing to me at all ; it was his man that gave me the half crown , and spoke to me . l. c. j. holt. will your lordship ask him any other questions ? l. preston . no my lord. l. c. j. holt. then call your next witness . mr. serj. tremayn . swear captain billop . which was done . mr. serj. thompson . come captain billop , pray will you tell my lord and jury , where you did apprehend my lord preston , and the circumstances of what happened at their taking . capt. billop . sir , i met with them at the upper end of the hope . mr. serj. thompson . pray give us an account from the beginning to the end , what passed , how you came with the boat , and all that hapned at that time . capt. billop . about two a clock , or between one and two , upon the last of december , my lord danby came to me at one of the doors of the house of lords , and told me his father would speak with me ; and he carried me to my lord linsey's chamber , where immediately my lord president came , and told me there were some persons that were going for france about business of dangerous consequence , and he desired me to use some means to get them apprehended ; i then proposed what i should have to enable me for the undertaking . my lord danby said there was such a boat , that he would procure for me , and my lord president gave me a letter to another person , who was to instruct me further about this matter : my lord danby got the boat ready , and some men and arms in it ; but i thought there was not arms enough , so i borrow'd some arms of my lord lucas , and about eleven a clock as near as i remember we put off from tower wharf , it being very calm ; i thought we should be swifter than any vessel , and should have the advantage of them all ; and therefore run down as far as graves end ; and i brought several vessels by the lee , in which time i pressed some barkin men , two or three of them ; and amongst them , one that knew the vessels that lay in the river , having been on board several ; and we did board divers , and took out some men , having a press warant ; and he that i had taken of the barkin men , after we had passed by several vessels , seeing this vessel sailing , told me that was the thomas and elizabeth ; whereupon we made up to them , and waving towards them , they staid for us : when we came up , there was standing by the master two lusty sailors , and i told him i would take but one of them ; he said he had a protection ; i bid him shew it me ; when i was come on board , and had looked upon his protection , i told him i must look a little further , and i went down into the cabin , and took up the hatches , and there i found them all four lying together . mr. serj. thompson . what four ? capt. billop . my lord preston i did not know him then , nor till afterwards . mr. serj. tremayn . who else was there ? capt. billop . mr. ellyot was there , and mr. ashton , who were both my former acquaintance , but my lord preston i had forgotten , till one of them called him my lord , and i asked them what lord it was ; and they said it was my lord preston ; so then i saluted my lord , so we rowed up . mr. serj. thompson . pray captain tell us what hapned in the vessel before you went out of it , after you found them there ? capt. billop . i handed my lord preston up first , and after he came out of that little place , which he was forced to creep out of on his knees , i turned my lord about , and told him i must search him ; he said , he hoped i would not meddle with any thing ; i told him i would meddle with nothing but papers , so i put my hand in his pocket and took all the papers i could find , and put them in my own pocket , and taking out a watch , i delivered it to my lord again . the next was mr. ellyot , and i searcht him , and found nothing at all upon him . after that ashton came up , and one of my men told me that gentleman had put something in his bosom ; whereupon i gave him a sudden turn , his back being towards me , and asked him what was that he put in his bosom ? he told me nothing but his handkerchief , and pluckt his handkerchief out ; with that i clapt my hand in and got the packet , and took it out , with the lead fixt to it ; i have the lead now in my pocket . mr. serj. tremayn . pray will you produce it , sir. which he did . capt. billop . this is the lead , several of my men saw it when 't was fixed to the packet . mr. serj. thompson . what did you do with the packet ? capt. billop . i put it immediately into my pocket , as soon as i had searcht mr. ashton further , and then commanded these gentlemen all into my boat , and took all the people that belonged to the smack with me : after i had brought her to an anchor , and left two of my men on board of her , and there she rid till next day , when i sent two more of my men to bring her up and those two men i ordered to search all the parts of the vessel , and take what they could find , and whatsoever they found they should carry it to the tower to my lord lucas ; which , i supposed , they did . mr. serj. tremayn . well , captain billop , after such time as you had taken these papers , and brought these gentlemen into your boat , pray what discourse had you with them ? what said they to you concerning the papers ? capt. billop . it was a pretty while before we talked of any thing ; the beginning of our talk was , as i remember , they desired to go ashore at gravesend to refresh themselves , for it was cold , and they had not eaten any thing : it was my lord that desired it ; but i begged his pardon for that , and told him there was a man of war that lay at long-reach , whereas i believed his lordship would be very well accommodated with any thing he wanted . mr. serj. thompson . well , what said they afterwards ? capt. billop . my lord preston , after i had saluted him upon knowing who he was , and mr. ashton and mr. ellyot telling him i was of their acquaintance , he said he was glad he was fallen into a civil gentleman , and they said they were glad they were fallen into the hands of an acquaintance . i told my lord i hope he should never find any thing otherwise than civil from me ; my lord was very civil to me in complementing , and assuring me he would acknowledge my favour and kindness to him . mr. serj. thompson . ay , what did he say to you ? capt. billop . my lord preston told me , if ever it lay in his power to do me service he would , and he did not doubt but he might , and he used a great many words and expressions of kindness , and his readiness to do me service ; and amongst the rest , my lord said once to me , if i would dispose of the packet — mr. serj. thompson . pray speak that again . capt. billop . my lord preston , in one of his discourses of his kindness in doing me service , had this expression , as near as i can remember , if i would dispose of the packet . mr. serj. tremayn . what he would do for you if you would dispose of the packet ? capt. billop . he did not come to any particular instance of what he would do , but he said he would serve me in any thing that lay in his power ; but mr. elliot and mr. ashton discoursed me several times about it ; they courted me , and desired me to throw the packet over-board ; but i told them i would not do any thing of that kind ; and mr. elliot said that i might take the papers that i took out of my lord preston's pocket and tie the lead to them , and say that was the packet , and throw the to'ther over-board . i told him he took the king's council to be odd people , and very indiscreet , that could not find out such a thing as that : after this was over , we had a little interval , and there was a hamper in the boats stern , and there was some bottles of wine taken out , and we drunk several times ; and by and by we had some discourse a little further about the same thing , and they pressed me to throw the packet away ; and one time particularly mr. ashton i remember , said it would be a generous thing , billop , if you would go along with us , i think you may do as well there as here . mr. serj. tremayn . whether would he had you gone with them ? capt. billop . he did not name any place , as i remember . mr. serj. tremayn . what promises did they any of them make you ? capt. billop . mun ellyot whispered me several times , dear billop throw the packet over-board , what good would it do you to injure so many honest gentlemen ? and mr. ashton and mr. ellyot said i had it now in my power to make my self as great and as rich as i would be . mr. serj. tremayn . what did any of them say about the tide turning ? capt. billop . mun ellyot also said , it was impossible the current or the tide could run long this way , or always this way . mr. serj. thompson . when you had refused this that they desired of you , notwithstanding their promises , pray tell us how they turned their discourse into threatnings . capt. billop . ellyot told me , when nothing would prevail , that every dog had his day ; but i answered , i hoped never to see it your day ; but however , said i , pray desist from any such language , for i can't bear it . after that they never askt me any thing about it . mr. serj. thompson . now tell us what you did with these gentlemen , and these papers afterwards ? capt. billop . i brought these gentlemen up to my lord nottingham's office , and delivered the packet with the lead fixed to it , and stood by my lord nottingham in the room till he had opened the papers , except while my lord preston was examined , and when he opened the papers i stood by , that i might see him make them up again ; and , i think , i took some of them in my hand , and said i might read them , but i was uneasie , and not disposed at that time to read many of them , so i did not read them all . mr. serj. tremayn . they were all by when ashton said you would do generously to go along with them , were they not ? capt. billop . yes , they were all in the boat. mr. serj. trem. did not one of them say to you , i know if capt. billop do serve us he will do it generously . capt. billop . yes . mr. serj. trem. who was it ? capt. billop . it was ashton . l. preston . i desire i may ask captain billop a question . l. c. j. holt. pray , my lord , put your question to the court and they will ask it him . l. preston . i desire to know , my lord , where it was , i said this to capt. billop , that he would dispose of the packet . capt. billop . just after i had first saluted your lordship , you said , you were glad you were fallen into the hands of a civil gentlemen . l. preston . was it a-board the boat that i desired you to dispose of the packet ? capt. billop . yes , and before we came on board the george frigat , when we drunk about , upon the opening of the hamper , it was in the boat i am very sure , and before we came on board the george . l. c. j. holt. my lord preston said to you , you say , he would do you all the kindness that lay in his power if you would dispose of the packet ; how would he have you dispose of it ? what did he mean by it ? capt. billop . i don't remember he used any other word , but that dispose of the packet . mr. serj. thompson . but ashton and ellyot did desire of you a great many times to throw it over board ? ld preston . i desire he may be ask'd this question . you said you carried these to my lord nottingham : did you see them opened ? capt. billop . yes , i did see them opened , and i saw my lord as he opened , lay them one by one , and read them over , and put them up again . and i looked upon several of them , while my ld nottingham was reading others ; and i stood by the fire , and i see my lord make them up , and he tied them with a piece of twine , and he clapt his seal upon them , and delivered them to me ; and i went immediately and delivered them to my lord president . ld preston . were you all the while by , while my lord nottingham was reading the papers ? c. billop . yes , i was by when he opened them , and read them , and staid till he put them up again ; and as they came from his hands , i presently carried them to my lord president . ld preston . are you sure , or can you swear that these are the same papers which were taken on board the smack , that you carried from my lord nottingham to my lord danby . capt. billop . so many of them as i looked into , i marked ; and all that i marked i can swear to , and more than them i cannot . mr. serj. thomson . i think you say all those papers that you delivered to my ld nottingham , you saw my ld nottingham seal up , and all them you carried to my ld president . yes , i did so ; all that my lord opened at that time , were put up together again , and his seal put to them . l. c. j. holt. but my ld asks you , whether you can swear the particular papers ? capt. billop . what i read , i marked , and them i can swear to . l. c. j. holt. you say you carried all those papers my ld nottingham sealed , after he had opened them , to my lord president . c. billop . yes , my lord , i did see my ld nottingham open them , i see him make them up again ; and when they were made up , he put his seal to them , and i carried them to my lord president . jury-man . my lord , i desire capt. billop may be asked one question . l. c. j. holt. ay ; what is it you would ask him ? jury-man . i desire to know whether the papers were sealed when he took them and brought them to my lord nottingham ? c. billop . no ; they were all tied up together with a tape , or a twine , i think with both , very fast together . jury-man . there was no seal on them when he took them . c. billop . no ; but there were several letters within the pacquet that were sealed . l. c. j. holt. was not the out-side of the pacquet sealed ? c. billop . i don't remember the out-side was sealed ; there was a cover , but as near as i remember , they were folds of papers fast tied together . mr. serj. tremain . you delivered them as you took them , to my l. nottingham ? c. billop . yes : i never took them out of my pocket after i had taken them from mr. ashton till i came to my l. nottingham's office , where i deliver'd them to him . mr. s. thompson . had you ever opened them , or seen them opened , before they came to the hands of my lord nottingham ? c. billop . no indeed . mr. serj. tremain . then set up johnson . ( which was done . ) pray tell us what you know of this matter ? johnson . i was in my l. dunblain's barge , and i went down with this capt. billop , and we were on board several vessels ; and we light upon a ketch , where we pressed some men , we thought it had been only some seamen that were to be pressed , we did not know of any thing else when we had rowed down as far as you have heard . we rowed up again , and searched several little vessels and smacks that were in the river ; when a fisher-man that we had pressed , said , that that was the vessel the captain enquired after : and then the captain bid us take some small arms ; and i took a pistol , and i went aboard . the captain read the protection , and then said , he must look further : when the captain look'd into one of the cabins , and took up the hatches , i saw a great piece of roast-beef , and my l. preston by it , and a mince-pye , and a fowl ; and we took the beef out , but my lord's man said , he missed his knife , it lay upon the bench : and then came my lord up , and his man , and mr. ellyot ; and when mr. ashton ( the man with the pock-holes ) came up , he went down again and pretended to look for his hat ; but when he was down , i see him cram something into his bosom , and i told the captain , i had seen him put some-thing in his bosom ; and the captain took him hold by the buttons of his coat and turned him about , and asked him , what he put into his bosom ? he said , nothing but his handkerchief ; and pulling it out of his bosom , he shewed it the captain : but the captain put his hand into mr. ashton's bosom and pulled out the pacquet . mr. serj. thomson . you say you see him put something in his bosom when he went down . did you observe whence he took it ? johnson . it was upon the gravel , and there were a couple of seals which we afterwards took up lying by , and i believe he took up the pacquet , and forgot the seals . mr. serj. tremain . pray let us see the seals . mr. soll. gen. your lordship observes the pacquet was not at first in mr. ashton's bosom . l. c. j. holt. no , it was not . mr. sol. gen. but he took it up from the place where the seals lay , and put it in his bosom . pray in what place did this pacquet and these seals lie ? johnson . upon the ballast , for they had shoved away the board . mr. sol. gen. was my lord preston upon the ballast ? johnson . yes , my lord lay almost upon his back , he was the first that we saw , and he came out first ; they were all four lying together there . mr. sol. gen. who lay next my l. preston ? johnson . my lord's footman , mr. ashton lay next , and mr. ellyot lay next . mr. sol. gen. where were the seals then ? johnson . my lord was the first that i see come up . mr. sol. gen. but i ask you where the seals were ? johnson . the seals were down upon the ballast ; whether they were my lord's or no , i cannot tell , or whose they were . mr. serj. tremain . now that we will ask capt. billop : are these the seals ? c. billop . yes ; these are the seals this man gave me . johnson . i took them from off the ballast . mr. serj. thompson . did my lord own these to be his seals ? c. billop . i did not ask him that i know of . mr. serj. thompson . well , johnson , go on , tell what you know further . johnson . after we came to long-reach , a gentleman that had a long perriwig , a black gentleman , mr. ellyot i think they call him , had a pair of whiskers on when he was taken ; and he took a pair of siscers and cut them both off ; and he said , if ever he liv'd , he should remember me , having a tooth out , because i was so sharp upon him to make him come out : and when we came on board the george frigat in long-reach , my lord's man came to me , and said , he would give me something to drink , if i would deliver him the seals . ld c. j. holt. had you any discourse with my ld preston himself about them ? johnson . no , it was his footman that came to me , and said there was no body there but my self and him ; i had them , and he would give me something to drink if i would deliver them , but i delivered them to capt. billop . ld preston . my lord , may i ask a question or two of this witness ? ld c. j. holt. yes , my lord , if they have done with him . what say you , brother thompson ? mr. s. thompson . we shall have done with him presently , my lord. pray had you any money given you ? johnson . no , but my ld gave the ship 's company ten shillings to drink , and one piece was a brass half-crown . mr. s. thompson . what did they say as they went along , as you remember ? johnson . they had a great deal of discourse while we rowed ; i was at the next oar to them , but i cannot tell what ' t was . mr. s. thompson . who did discourse ? johnson . ashton , elliot , and the captain . mr. s. thompson . cannot you remember what they said any of them ? johnson . they did talk together several times , elliot said he was a-cold , and came and rowed at the oar awhile , and elliot swore an oath , says he , they row all as if they were rowing to prison ; but truly i did not much mind their discourse , i minded my rowing . there were some victuals handed to us which we did eat . mr. s. tremain . did elliot seem to be angry ? what did he say ? johnson . elliot wished that a thunderbolt might drop into the boat several times , and sink it ; and when we went through bridg , against tide , he wished that london-bridg might have fallen upon our heads . ld preston . now i would ask him , if your lordship please , did you see ashton take up the pacquet ? johnson . yes , i did , as it lay by the seals . ld preston . i perceive there seems to be some stress laid upon my lying next to mr. ashton , and my seals lying by the pacquet . ld c. j. holt. my lord , here has been no inference made from that yet by the king's counsel . ld preston . my lord , it is in vain to deny we were all together there . johnson . you were the first that i see , my lord. ld preston . we were all together , but there is no such thing to be gathered from thence as they would infinuate ; but i suppose 't would be deduced from hence , as if this pacquet , because it lay near these seals , should be my pacquet . ld c. j. holt. we have not yet heard , my lord , what use they will make of it . ld preston . but i desire to take notice of it , my lord , and i think it is a very hard presumption because we were in one place and the seals at a little distance from the pacquet , therefore the pacquet must be presumed to be mine , i hope it shall not be presumed against me . ld c. j. holt. since your lordship mentions it , i will take notice a little of it too : it is only a circumstantial evidence that is made use of against you ; how far it will weigh , is to be left to the jury vvhen all the evidence is heard . the pacquet is found in the place vvhere your lordship lay , and by it seals that belong to you ; one is the seal of your office , as secretary of state , the other is your own proper coat of arms. jury-man . with submission , my lord , i desire this witness may be asked this question , whether he savv capt. billop take the pacquet out of ashton's bosom ? johnson . yes , i did . jury-man . and , whether he savv billop deliver the same pacquet to my lord nottingham ? johnson . no , i did not . ld c. j. holt. you gentlemen of the jury , consider this , he vvas not then by : capt. billop tells you , that very pacquet which he took out of ashton's bosom he carried to my ld nottingham , and he tells you my lord opened it in his presence , and he is sure he put all the papers together again and set his own seal upon them , and then he took them from my ld nottingham and carried them to my ld president . johnson . as soon as i came to white-hall , i was set sentinel over those three men that came out of the smack , and was not admitted into the room . mr. sol. gen. then we must desire my ld nottingham may be sworn . the earl of nottingham sworn . mr. s. tremain . where are the papers ? e. of nottingham . mr. bridgman , i think you have the papers . mr. sol. gen. pray , my lord , does your lordship remember capt. billop brought a bundle of papers to you , and what became of them ? will your lordship be pleased to give the court and the jury an account of it ? e. of nottingham . my lord , all that i have to say in this matter is , capt. billop brought to me a bundle of papers tied about with a packthread , to vvhich was fixed a piece of lead , i believe the same piece that was now produced , at least it was one very like it , he brought also a signet which i presume i can know again when i see it . mr. s. thompson . pray shew my lord the seals . [ which was done . ] e. of nottingham . this is the signet i presume vvhich he brought to me , i am sure he brought just such a one , if not the same : those papers vvhen he delivered them to me , i opened in his presence , and vvhen i had so done , i read them and put them up together again and sealed them with my own seal , and delivered them to him back again . what the papers are , and what he did with them , i suppose , he vvill give you an account . ld c. j. holt. but your lordship says the bundle of papers he delivered to you , you sealed up , and delivered to him again . e. of nottingham . all those papers that he brought to me , i did seal up , and deliver back to him again . mr. s. thompson . pray , my lord , were they ever out of capt. billop's sight vvhile your lordship had them ? e. of nottingham . not after they were opened : there was a little paper that was tied to the bundle which fell loose upon the taking away the lead , and i opened that while he vvas by , and the bundle lay upon the table while i examined my ld preston , and after my ld preston vvas gone out , i called in capt. billop ( who vvent out while i examined my lord ) and i opened that great pacquet in his sight and read the papers , and he read some of them , and all the papers in the great pacquet , and the little paper that was stuck in , i delivered sealed up to capt. billop . mr. s. thompson . pray , my lord , were the letters in the pacquet sealed ? e. of nottingham . yes , there were some of them sealed , and all that i received from him i delivered to him , and no more . ld c. j. holt. the gentlemen of the jury hear vvhat my lord says . e. of nottingham . the very same , all , and no more , i say . m. s. thompson . capt. billop , when you had them back from my lord of nottingham , pray to whom did you deliver them ? capt. billop . to my ld president . mr. s. tremain . then vve must desire my ld president would be pleased to be sworn . the marquess of carmarthen , lord president of the council , was sworn . mr. sol. gen. we must desire the favour of your lordship , to acquaint the court when capt. billop came to your lordship , what he said , and what he brought with him . l. president . capt. billop did bring me a bundle of papers , and he told me he brought them from my ld of nottingham , and they were sealed , wrap'd up with a packthread , and sealed with a seal , which i knew to be my lord's seal ; he delivered them to me my self ; and these papers i kept till i shew'd them the king the next morning . and after i had shewed them the king , the king delivered them up back to me , having read some of them , and commanded they should be delivered to the cabinet council . a cabinet council was called , and accordingly there i did deliver them paper by paper , and they were all marked by my ld sidney , and some i think by my ld marlborough ; and so i delivered them all together to my ld sidney . mr. sol. gen. then we desire my ld sidney would please to be sworn . the lord sidney sworn . mr. serj. thompson . will your lordship please to acquaint the court and the jury what papers were delivered to you , and by whom , and where those papers are ? ld sidney . the papers that were delivered by my lord president , i have kept them , my lord , ever since : as soon as i had them , i read them , and marked them with a letter of my own name , the letter h. i have kept them ever since , only one morning i gave them to mr. bridgman to be copied out assoon as he could ; and he delivered them me back again , and they have not been out of my custody since , only the night before last night they were sent to mr. sollicitor to read , and brought immediately to me again . mr. sol. gen. to whom did your lordship deliver them to be copied ? ld sidney . to mr. bridgeman , i tell you . mr. sol. gen. so that they were never out of your lordship's hands till now , but only in mr. bridgeman's hands ? ld sidney . no , i kept them in my pocket ever since , only the night before last night when they were sent to you . mr. sol. gen. did your lordship mark them before they were delivered to mr. bridgeman to copy ? ld sidney . yes , i marked them when i received them . ld preston . my lord chief justice , your lordship does observe that capt. billop swears that they were never out of his possession till he delivered them to my ld nottingham ; my ld nottingham says he never opened them , but left the pacquet upon the table while i was examining . l. c. j. holt. pray , my lord , will you speak a little louder that i may hear you ? ld preston . my lord , i am saying , my l. nottingham says . that while he was examining me , the pacquet lay upon the table unopened , and were never out of his eye till he sent them sealed by c. billop , and so they come to my ld president , and they were kept by my ld president ; my ld president says , my ld churchill saw the papers , and they were in his possession . l. c. j. holt. my ld preston , your lordship does mistake my ld president , he does not say that they were in my lord marlborough's hands ; but he did communicate them at the cabinet-council where my l. marlborough was ; he said indeed , they were in the king's hands , but he was by all the while . ld preston . from that time they came out of my ld president 's hands , i know not what may be put in , nor what taken out , these papers are not sealed , as i hear of , afterwards ; and passing through so many hands , no body knows what may be done to them : truly , i think it very hard to swear , after all this , that these are the papers that were taken aboard the smack . l. c. j. pollexfen . will you please to ask any questions to satisfy your self of any of these noble lords ? l. c. j. holt. my lord , i 'le put your lordship right . ld preston . with all my heart , my lord. l. c. j. holt. your lordship hears what capt. billop says ; he says , he brought them , as he took them out of ashton's bosom , to my ld nottingham : my ld nottingham opened them before him , and did deliver them to him again , having made them up . my ld nottingham says , the same papers capt. billop delivered him , he delivered back again , all , and no more ; and billop says , he carried them to my ld president ; my ld president shewed them to the king , and afterwards carried them to the cabinet council ; there the same papers were opened , and there they were marked , some by my lord marlborough , and all by my ld sidney . ld preston . your lordship will please to observe this ; my ld nottingham was pleased to say , he opened no papers till i was called in and examined , and then capt. billop withdrew . now , my lord , i don't know whether the captain can say that these were the very same papers that he took in the smack ? l. c. j. holt. capt. billop says , that he saw the papers opened by my lord nottingham . capt. billop . my ld preston observes a thing that is very right , my lord , that after i had delivered the pacquet to my ld nottingham , while my lord was examined , i withdrew ; but my ld nottingham has given your lordship an account , that he had not opened the pacquet then , but only the small letter or note that lay apart from the rest : but , my lord , the pacquet was in the same condition when i came in again , upon the table , as when i left it ; my ld nottingham , as i believe , had not opened that pacquet , for i found it just as i left it , upon the table . l. c. j. pollexfen . my ld nottingham says , he delivered back to capt. billop all the papers that he received from him ; they were never out of my lord nottingham's presence ; nor were they opened , as my lord says , but in billop's presence , nor opened till after my lord's examination , except the little paper that was stuck in , and was loose upon taking away the lead . mr. sol. gen. pray swear mr. bridgeman . ( which was done . ) mr. serj. tremain . pray , when you received the bundle of papers from my ld sidney , to whom were they carried , and to whom were they delivered ? mr. bridgman . my ld sidney gave me these papers to have them copied ; and i copied some of them with my own hand , the others i delivered to mr. poultney , and were copied in my presence in the office : they were never out of my sight , and as soon as ever they were copied , i carried them back to my ld sidney , and delivered them to him my self . ld preston . were any of them taken from you , sir ? mr. bridgeman . my lord , i say i copied some of them my self , the others were copied in my sight and presence , in the office. mr. serj. thompson . pray , sir , let me ask you one question ; were the same papers that were delivered to you by my ld sidney , redelivered back again and altered ? mr. bridgman . i am very sure i gave them all the same back again , because i read them every one before they were copied . mr. serj. thompson . did you observe my ld sidney had marked them before you had them ? mr. bridgeman . yes , they were all marked before i had them . ld preston . my lord , i desire to ask mr. bridgeman this question , pray sir , were they sealed up when you sent them to my ld sidney ? mr. bridgeman . no , they were not sealed , they were tied up , but about the seals i remember when i was in my ld sidney's office — ld c. j. holt. the question is ask'd you , whether you carried them back sealed or no ? mr. bridgeman . no. they were not sealed when they were delivered to me , but i can safely swear they were never out of my custody till i delivered them back again ; for vvhat i did not copy my self , were copied in my sight . mr. s. thompson . but your lordship is pleased to observe they were all mark'd by my ld sidney before they were delivered unto him . mr. sol. gen. then , my lord , we have done with our living witnesses for the present , and will read the papers . mr. bridgeman . one thing , my lord , i do remember , as soon as my lord sidney received the papers back again , he looked over every one of them and read them , and looked upon the marks . ld preston . if your lordship please , i would beg the favour to ask one question of my ld sidney ; pray , my lord , did your lordship number the papers ? ld sidney . no , my lord , i did not number them . ld preston . but your lordship says upon your oath and honour , that those are the very marks upon them that your lordship set there . mr. sol. gen. we are indeed to produce them , and then we shall ask that particular question . ld c. j. holt. my ld sidney will see them , and then he will answer your lordship's question . ld c. j. pollexfen . my ld preston , my ld nottingham is here a witness , and his occasions call him away , have you a mind to ask him any more questions ? ld preston . no , my lord. ld c. j. pollexfen . what say you , gentlemen , have you any further occasion for my lord nottingham ? mr. sol. gen. my lord , we must beg his lordship's patience , we do not know what occasion there may be ; i desire this paper may be shewn to my ld sidney . ( which was done ) ld sidney . that is my mark , that paper i know is one of the papers . mr. s. tremain . here are two of them , one of these is the copy of the other , both were taken in the same packet , the one is fairer written than the other . mr. sol. gen. gentlemen , the paper we are now offering to you is that which i mentioned before , it is the result of a conference ; there were two of them taken in this bundle , the one of them seems to be the first draught , the other is a copy more fairly written ; but i think they are both in effect the same ; however they were both taken in the same pacquet , and you shall hear them read . ld preston . my lord , i desire that before it be read , it may be shewn to capt. billop , to know whether it be the very paper that he took . ld. c. j. holt. ay , let capt. billop look upon it . capt. billop . my lord , i do not remember that paper . ld preston . your lordship observes that capt. billop cannot swear that this was one of the papers that he took . capt. billop . all the papers that i looked into i marked , and all the papers that i mark'd i can swear to , and no others . ld c. j. pollexfen . did you look into all the papers ? capt. billop . no , i did not . ld c. j. holt. but he swears all that he brought to my ld nottingham were sealed up by my ld nottingham , and carried by him from my ld nottingham to my ld president , and my ld president swears he delivered them all to my ld sidney , and my ld sidney swears this is one of those papers . ld preston . certainly , my lord 's swearing to a paper in this manner cannot be a good proof : my circumstances , my lord , are very hard , and your lordship , i have heard , ought to be of counsel for me in any point of law ; and , my lord , i humbly desire to know , whether this can be a proof of a paper , that he says was taken in a pacquet , and yet he can't swear it ? ld c. j. holt. my lord , he does not swear that this was one of the papers ; but the question is , whether all these witnesses together do not prove it ? you see how the evidence runs ; all the papers taken were delivered to my ld nottingham : all that were delivered to him were sent back by him sealed , and delivered to my ld president ; my ld president brought them all to the cabinet-council , and delivered them to my ld sidney , and this my ld sidney says is one of those papers . ld preston . my lord , i have a very great honour for that noble lord , and i am sure , if he had not been upon his oath , he would have said that which was truth ; but in this condition that i am in , i must crave leave to observe every thing i can for my self , and i cannot but say these papers are very oddly managed , and delivered up and down from one hand to another ; i desire your lordship would please to observe that these papers are here brought after a very odd manner . mr. s. thompson . my ld preston , you are not to sum up the evidence to the jury till we have done , nor to make your observations . ld c. j. holt. brother , my lord opposes the reading of the paper , as not well proved . ld preston . i do so , my lord , and i hope your lordship will advise me whether you do think it a sufficient evidence and proof of these papers ; they are papers that have been copied out , and sent unsealed from hand to hand by some mestengers from one to another , and which now appear to be unsealed , and some of which he that took them cannot swear to . jury-man . my lord , we cannot hear one word that is said . ld preston . that is my misfortune : but i am urging to my lords the judges , whether this paper ought to be read , and i desire your lordship to advise me , whether it can be admitted as evidence , being thus oddly proved ? ld c. j. holt. it is evidence surely , my lord : but the question is , what credit the jury will give to this evidence , the jury are judges of that ; but certainly it is evidence to have the paper read . ld preston . i doubt not but your lordship will do me justice , and i readily acquiesce in what your lordships do appoint . ld c. j. pollexfen . pray , my lord , see how the evidence stands about this matter ; first it is sworn by billop , that he took a bundle of papers , tho 't is true , the particulars he does not undertake to swear to ; well , what is next ? why , says he , all that was in that bundle i carried to my ld nottingham , and i received from my ld nottingham all that i carried to him . what says my my ld nottingham ? he swears i delivered back again to capt. billop the same papers he delivered to me , and all and no more , sealed up with my seal . when he has it sealed up , what does he do with it ? why he carries it to my ld president . is there any possibility of creeping out of this evidence ? well , he delivers them to my ld sidney , and my ld sidney says this is one of those papers : can there be a plainer evidence than this ? when he says , all he had he carried to my ld nottingham , and my ld nottingham swears all he did receive he sent back sealed by him to my ld president , and my ld president swears all he received so sealed he gave to my ld sidney , and my ld sidney swears this is one of those papers . ld preston . but your lordship will please to observe they were carried to the king , and they were in the hands of my ld marlborough . l. c. j. holt. no , my lord , not out of the sight of my lord president . my lord president says my lord marlborough marked some of them , but they were delivered to my lord sydney , and my lord sydney does say they are the same papers that he had from my lord president , and my lord president says , they are the same that were brought him by captain billop from my lord nottingham , and my lord nottingham swears he sealed them , the same papers , all and no more than he received from captain billop . l. c. baron . your lordship should observe where the defect of the proof is , and then it may be supplyed ; for truly , put it altogether , i cannot see how there could be a plainer proof given . lord preston . my lord , i desire to be heard as to this my lord president was pleased to say , that some of them were delivered to the king. l. c. j. holt. no , they were shewn to the king , but my lord president was by all the while the king did read them . lord preston . my lord , where a mans life lyes at stake , and all that is dear to him , your lordship will certainly allow him to make what observations he can for himself . l. c. j. holt. ay , in gods name , by all means : you shall have all the liberty you can desire . mr. soll. gen. my lord , we desire my lord president will be pleased to look upon those papers . which was done . lord president . this is one of the papers that i received from captain billop , and which i shewed to the king , and which i brought to the cabinet council ; and this is another of the papers . lord preston . pray my lord , was your lordship by when his majesty read those letters . lord president . yes , my lord , i was . lord preston . my lord , i ask it for this end , to know whether they were out of your lordships sight . lord president . no never ; i was in the kings cabinet , his majesty read some of them , and then put them up again , and gave them me , and i delivered them at the cabinet council to my lord sydney . mr. soll. gen. my lord , we desire this paper may be read . l. c. j. holt. read it . clerk of the peace , reads . the result of a conference between some lords and gentlemen , both tories and whigs , in which it was undertaken to prove the possibility and method of restoring by a fr. power , without endangering the protestant religion and civil administration , according to the laws of this kingdom . . f. must either oblige or conquer us : if the last , he will find few helps here , but a bloodyer resistance then ever the romans , saxons , or normans found : it being incredible , how unanimous and obstinate that very thought renders the people , so that it may make us a heap of ruin , but no nation that can ever help or import any thing to f. . if k. l. desires to oblige vs , and make the work easie , that he may be at leisure to ply the empire or italy , or to have an advantagious peace , he must take off the frightful character we have of him , and shew us he has no such design , as returning our offended k. a conqueror upon us , but that he can and will be our friend and mediator ; upon which terms he will find that many lords and gentlemen will speedily shew themselves to his satisfaction ; especially , if he makes haste , and looses no approaching opportunity . . if he incline to this sort of sense , he must over-rule the bigotry of st. g. and dispose their minds to think of those methods that are more likely to gain the nation ; for there is one silly thing or other daily done there , that comes to our notice here , which prolongs what they so passionately desire . the methods thought upon are these . first , to prevent dangerous and foolish intelligence by forbidding all in that court to write any news hither , and that k. j. only have his correspondence by whom to hear from , and speak to people here ; since letters so often miscarry , and are filled with nothing but what we should not hear ; and what we have are arguments for the most part against the k's restoration . secondly , since there is a great body of protestants that never defected , and that many thousands are returning , and that they are the natural weight and power of these kingdoms , by having the heads , hands and wealth of their side , to the odds and advantage of at least two hundred protestants to one catholick ; the k. may think of nothing short of a protestant administration , nor of nothing more for the catholicks then a legal liberty of conscience ; for much e mutt is against all other notions , to which all private passions , and artificial frames in government must yield or break . he may reign a catholick in devotion , but he must reign a protestant in government . cromwel could not , yet on a broader bottom , with a victorious army , subsist or keep what he had got . thirdly , he must give us a model of this at st. g. by preferring the protestants that are with him above the catholicks ; one being loyal upon less tyes of interest , and to tell the nation here what they are to hope for when he comes . fourthly , he must give incouragement to lords and gentlemen here to come to him , at least seven or nine for a standing council , which will make us here think he is in some degree ours again , and that we have a relation to him , and some interest and share in him , by the men of quality of our own religion that are with him . this will incomparably faciliate the matter here , nor will they , when they come , come empty , and in their own names , which is still better , and will be more satisfactory there . fifthly , to induce this , english protestants should be encouraged by an edict of liberty from the k. of f. to have chappels at their own costs , in which to worship god after their respective ways , by which that k. will make us reflect upon his conduct towards his hugonots , rather to flow from the hazard he thought himself in by their antimon . and resisting principles , then a desire of persecution . lastly , all other requisite measures depending upon the acceptance this finds , an answer hereunto is impatiently desired by those that have discoursed the k's business to this maturity . so ended with an vnanimous consent , both tories and whiggs upon this occasion , that are in a way of closeing in his interest . lord preston . i can very safely swear , my lord , that i never saw that paper in my life . l. c. j. holt. come go on with your evidence . mr. sol. gen. this is another paper of the same , but the words that are written short in that are written at length in this . the paper was read accordingly , and in the first blank there was written k. j. in the first paragraph ( france ) twice , in the third paragraph ( st. germains ) in the fifth , ( mathemat . for much e mutt ) the rest are obvious , and need not be supplied . mr. sol. gen. pray shew my lord sidney that paper , what says your lordship to it . lord sidney , this is one of the papers that i marked , and that i received from my lord president . mr. sol. gen. pray will my lord president be pleased to give himself the trouble to cast his eye upon that , and see if that be one of the papers . lord president , my lord , i remember it well , it is one of the papers i received from . capt. billop . mr. serj. tremain , this paper is what mr. solicitor mentioned as heads of a declaration . lord preston , my lord , i think it necessary to offer one thing to your lordships before it be read , i desire capt. billop should swear it to be one of his papers . mr. sol. gen. if your lordship pleases , you observe what has been done already . my lord president says 't is one of those papers that was sent him by my lord nottingham ; and my lord sidney , has sworn it is one of the papers he had from my lord president . lord preston , i shall not give your lordship any more trouble than needs ; i only offer it your lordship : i wave it . l. c. j. holt. there is evidence enough to have the paper read . clerk of the peace , reads . that the king will return with a design of making an entire conquest of his people , is so ridiculous as well as difficult , that it needs not be spoken to . that the kings declaration be worded in general terms , that he will govern by the laws , that they shall be the rule of his actions , that he will endeavour to settle liberty of conscience by law , that whatsoever things were formly done by him , which occasioned jealousies in the minds of his people , shall be left to the determination of a parliament , to be formerly and regularly called assoon as is possible . that he has given sufficient evidence of his unwillingness to bring an army of strangers into his kingdom , by refusing the succors of the king of france offered him , and which were even ready to be embarked upon the first notice of the p. of oranges intended invasion . that he brings with him such an army only as is necessary for his own defence , and for the security of such of his loyal subjects as shall resort to him , that he will dismiss them as soon as he shall have rid the nation of those forreigners who have invaded it , and trampled upon the laws and liberties of his people . the kings large exercising his dispensing power gave the great alarm to the people , and contributed most of all toward general defection . yet when that power came to be debated in the last convention , there appeared so many difficulties in the limiting of it , every body ( even the present judges believing it necessary , that a dispensing power should be in the k. ) that it was let fall , and that point remains as it was . and without mentioning that , or any other particular , the k. can be in no danger by leaving all things which have been the occasions of jealousies to the determination of parliament , where besides the kings professed friends and servants , there will not want others who will be glad of opportunity to ingratiate themselves . l. c. j. pollexfin . gent. of the jury , if you desire any thing to be read again , or any thing doubtful in it , should be explained , tell us , and it shall be done . juryman , no my lord , there is no occasion for that . i believe we apprehend these three papers that have been read . lord preston , my lord , it is necessary the gentlemen of the jury should be satisfied in this point . l. c. j. pollexfen , ay in any point , and if they desire any scruple should be cleared , the court will do it for them . juryman , my lord , i desire to know whether captain billop signed that paper or no. l. c. j. holt , no , he did not sign half of them , but unless it be proved , you ought to take it for granted , that it is not signed by him . lord preston , my lord , i think it fit the jury should be satisfied in any scruple they raise . l. c. j. holt , they asked this question , whether captain billop did sign the paper , and i told them capt. billop did not say so , and therefore they are to take it for granted , that he did not . juryman , my lord , we take this last paper that was read to be a paper that was delivered in the bundle taken from mr. ashton to my lord nottingham , but not signed by capt. billop . l. c. j. pollexfen , then you take it right . mr. sol. gen. then the next paper that we produce is a list of the english fleet that these gentlemen were carrying over into france . lord preston , that is printed , and to be found in every coffee-house . mr. serj. tremain , shew that paper to capt. billop . which was done . can you take it upon your oath , captain , that that paper was in the pacquet that was taken in mr. ashtons bosom . c. billop , that paper i have marked , and that paper i swear was in the pacquet i took away from mr. ashton aboard the smack . l. c. j. holt , you are sure of it . c. billop , yes my lord. l. c. j. holt , then read it . clerk of the peace , reads . ships . rates ships in repair . not building .             fireships   bomb. vessels     ketches     brought in by admiral russel to the house of commons , decemb. th . . the fleet , whereof dutch. memorandum , the new ships building are expected , will be ready to be lanched by the end of march. mr. serj. tremani , pray shew this paper to capt. billop . which was done . pray was that paper there among the others that were taken with these gent. capt. billop . yes it was . mr. sol. gen. can you take it upon your oath , that that paper was in the pacquet that was in mr. ashton's bosom . capt. billop , yes my lord , i can . mr. serj. tremani . pray shew him that paper too . which was done . mr. sol. gen. and can you take upon you to say , that that was one of the papers in the pacquet . c. billop , yes it was . mr. sol. gen. my lord , we desire these may be read . clerk of the peace , reads , new-years eve , and it is directed for mr. redding . sir , though the bearer of this will do us the justice , to assure you , we are as full of duty , as unfeignedly , and unconcernedly yours , as your self could wish ; yet this gentleman has undertaken . you will forgive the presumption , if i do my self the honour to give you this fresh assurance in a few words , which i hope we do by our accounts ; i shall omit no occasions , not neglecting the least , and making zealous wishes for the greatest , to shew our selves such as we ought to be . sir , i speak in the plural , because i write my elder brothers sentiments as well as my own , and the rest of the family , though lessened in number ; yet if we are not mightily out in our accounts , we are growing in our interest , that is in yours : he that delivers this , will i hope , intirely to your satisfaction , represent us and me in particular , as with all the devotion imaginable , and unchangeable affection . yours , god grant the happiest new year . mr. serj. tremani . read the other paper . cl. of peace . this is dated dec. . . i must not let this bearer depart , madam without assuring you — mr. sol. gen. hold sir , don't read that yet . here shew this paper to captain billop . which was done . what say you captain billop ? is that one of the papers taken from mr. ashton . capt. billop , yes , this is one that i read and marked . mr. sol. gen. then read it . cl. of peace , reads : this is directed for mrs. redding . as 't is impossible for me to express that extraordinary great satisfaction it gave me this time twelve month , when i had the honour to receive that mark of your favour and goodness under your own hand ; so i have lived in some pain for an opportunity to write you my humblest acknowledgments and truest duty from which by the grace of god , i am no more capable of swerving , than of renouncing my hopes of heaven : i say this in behalf of my elder brother and the rest of my nearest relations , as well as for my self : you may intirely depend upon us , not only for a constant adherence to so well chosen a principle , but for our utmost activity to promote your interest , which are inseparable from our own : i need come to no particulars by this bearer , who can and will tell you our whole heart ; and i wish you could see them , how sincerely they are devoted to your service . god grant you a most happy new year , and many , very many , and very happy . our young master hath all our best wishes , he daily gains more friends , and we get ground of his adversaries . new-years-eve . mr. sol. gen. now read your other paper of the . dec. . cl. of peace , reads , december . . i must not let this bearer depart madam , without assuring you of my best respects : i have written by him to a friend of yours , but depend upon you to give my note credit . though my creditors were no friends to the match which has been so long in treaty for your relations have been very hard upon me this last summer ; yet as soon as i could go safely abroad , i persued the business , and do beg you to believe , that no endeavours of mine shall be wanting to perfect the settlement . you once put me in hopes of seeing you before this christmas : your friends are sorry for the disappointment , pray lose no more time than is of absolute necessity : the bearer will tell you all things may be now easily sittled , if the right way be taken . i long to hear how your young daughter does , she will find many friends , and i hope her portion will be well secured . god send you a happy new-year , and that i may be merry with you before it be far spent , and i beseech you keep me in the good opinion of your friend , i will always make good what i promised to you . it is directed for mrs. charlton . juryman , my lord , i desire to know what that is directed to . cl. of peace , 't is directed to mrs. charlton . mr. serj. tremani , shew capt. billop those two papers . which was done . what say you to them captain ? capt. billop . my mark is on the outside , but there is nothing written in that , i believe it is taken of from the inner paper . lord preston , pray my lord is this any proof ? i beseech you for gods sake to have a regard to a mans life . mr. sol. gen. pray shew the paper to my lord sidney . which was done . lord sidney , this was one of the papers i received from my lord president . mr. sol. gen. then we must beg my lord president would be pleased to look on it . which was done . lord president , this was one of the papers brought me by capt. billop , from my lord nottinghams , in that bundle . lord preston , capt. billop does not know the paper , though his mark be to it . l. c. j. pollexfen , it is not indeed very material , whether he does or no , because he did not read all ; but i would observe that 't is sworn by my lord sidney , that this was delivered to him by my lord president , and sworn by my lord president , that he had it in that bundle from capt. billop . lord preston , but my lord , it does shew that there may be some alteration in the papers , because he having marked it , and marking none but what he read , he does not now own that to be the paper . mr. sol. gen. pray will your lordship be pleased to take it as it is : these are two papers ; the one is only the cover , the other is the writing : capt. billop has only marked the cover , and not the writing , but my lord sidney he has marked the paper it self , as delivered him by my lord president , and my lord president has given you an account , that it is one of the papers he received in that bundle from capt. billop . lord preston , i only mark , that there may be alterations made in these papers since they were taken . mr. serj. tremani , pray read it . cl. of peace , december . . it is directed to mr. jackson . the bearer can give you so full an account of all things relating to your estate here , that i need not have troubled you at this time , but that i am desirous to lay hold of any opportunity i think safe to assure you of my service , and that i will never quit your interest whatever the rest of the freeholders do : your adversary has been so hard to his neighbours , that he has extremly disobliged all the old tenents , and a little matter would redeem the whole estate , if you would appear in westminster-hall your self , the best council have a good opinion of your title , and will zealously pursue your instructions : i only beg you wou'd hasten them to us , and that you will appear your self assoon as is possible , no time should be lost , and the cause may be brought to a final hearing before the end of easter term , if it be well sollicited . i heartily wish you a happy new year , and beg you to tell mr. charlton that i long to know wherein i may serve him , and that i will follow his directions to the utmost , while i live , god keep you and yours . lord preston , pray sir , to whom is that letter directed . cl. of peace , to mr. jackson , my lord. mr. serj. tremani , pray shew that paper to my lord sidney . which was done . lord sidney , this is one of the papers i received from my lord president . then it was shewn to my lord president . lord president , this is one of the same papers that i received ●n the bundle from capt. billop . l. c. j. holt , read it . clerk of peace , reads , december . the interruption of the former correspondency had a very ill effect many ways , but for that reason , no opportunity ought now to be lost , and i hope this will prove a happy one . in trade as well as in government schemes must be laid , for there is no living from hand to mouth any more in commerce than in the politicks . lay therefore your designs probably , and pursue them diligently , and with vigour , though it be a hazardous time , yet by ventring boldly , where venturing is adviseable , it often returns great profit . there is nothing more to be said , but to give the bearer fit and full seasons to tell what he knows , both as to goods fit for our market , and when and where to be sent ; the sea will quickly grow so troublesome , that unless you dispatch what you intend for us , you will loose a great opportunity of advantage . i hope the account he has to give of our negotiations here , with the merchants that deal with us , especially those that have lately brought us their custom , will both encourage a larger trade , and excite the utmost diligence ; i will say nothing of my self , it shall be enough that i can live in the good opinion of one i bear so great a reverence and affection for ; but for this honest factor , i must own i can hardly say enough , truth and boldness are excellent qualities in a servant , and he has shewn both , as occasion has required him to shew them . i have but one word to add , and pray take it as the truest mark of unalterable respect , chuse well , but have to do but with a few , for a multitude may give , but can never keep counsel . i shall with more impatience then becomes me , wait the result of this , and it will be a great mark of goodness , to let us have it the best and safest way . once more , let not the season spend unprofitably , for a more likely one can hardly come than between this and the st of march. interpret this i pray , as no private interest of my own , or partial motion of any other person . it is my sense , my duty , and my friendship , which will not let me prevaricate , nor suffer those i love and honour to loose so happy and pressing an occasion of advantage . with the best wishes i close up this , and am &c. lord preston . pray , my lord , who is that paper directed to . l. c. j. pollexfen . this is directed to no body at all . mr. soll. gen. shew that paper to my lord sydney . which was done . lord sydney . this was one of the papers i had from my lord president . then it was shewn to the lord president . lord president . this is one of the papers i had from captain billop . l. c. j. holt. read it . clerk of the peace reads . this is dated december . but is not directed to any body at all . it is a presumption incident to those that are any where upon the spot , to think that they know better then those that are not , what is fittest to be done in any occurrence . this makes me say , that now is the time to make large advantages by trading ; the sea being freer then two months past , or we can hope it will be two months hence . this gentleman is well instructed in our markets , and what the goods are we want , and when and where they should be sent : it is most earnestly desired that this happy opportunity may not be lost , espeally by the late vndertakers , and i would not for much , they should receive the least disgust . they are somewhat positive in their termes ; but they also say , they will be good and constant customers ; and i have more than once seen the mischief of over-rateing and over-staying the market . opportunities are to be used , they cannot be given by men. the bearer needs nothing from me to recommend him , but he is deserving in our opinion here , and many will take their measures by the usage he finds there ; and indeed the pressing posture of our trading affairs will not permit more experiments . if the several parcels arrive not , that have been promised , before the th of march at furthest , ( especially the copper and linnen , of which the bearer will be more particular ) i am satisfied we shall loose this summers profit . i am the more pressing , because i am well assured of what i write ; and if ever i judged right it is upon this occasion . i have said nothing of another gentleman that takes this opportunity to see those parts , but he has shewn a zeal and a sincerity in this affair equal to most . jo. is not yet gone , by a misfortune , but he will follow with a good postscript in this affair . of my self i will say nothing , i hope i need not , for no body without vanity can be more sincerely and affectionately a friend and servant to the company than my self . i writ at large yesterday , and cannot write what the hand that gives this can say ; and therefore will write no more , but that with the greatest respect , i am , &c. mr. serj. tremani . pray shew this paper to my lord sydney . which was done . lord sydney . this is one of those papers i received from my lord president . then it was shewn to the lord president . lord president . this was one of the papers in the bundle i received from capt. billop . l. c. j. holt. then read it . clerk of the peace , reads . sir , i vow to you , i do not repine at having lost all for your sake which i got by your favour , but it grieves me extreamly that there is not that left which can secure me from being troublesome to you ; for that is the thing in the world i would not be . i have told my lord my condition . what i desire of you he thinks very moderate , i hope you will. pray sir be not backward in setling my little affair , for i have deserved your care. your daughter and i must starve , if this government can make us . i hope our interests are not divided , that is , you have an equal tenderness at least for both . if you think fit to speak what i would have you to this bearer , he will give me a just account of it . you know he is obliged to be my friend , and i believe him grateful , since he ventures so boldly for you . he brings with him some merry papers . adieu , for i dare write no more ; but pray send a messenger on purpose to me , that i may know exactly what you will do , and would have me do . if you send upon no other business there will be no danger . pray sir ask my lord , and he will tell you how i have been used , and upon what account ; i believe you know it not . decem. the th . your daughter is very well , very tall , and very pretty , as i am told . l. c. j. pollexfen . that is not directed to any body neither . mr. serj. tremani . pray then shew these papers to my lord sydney and my lord president ; ( which was done ) . they were two . l. c. j. pollexfen . these papers my lord sydney swears he received from my lord president , and my lord president swears he received them in the bundle from billop . mr. serj. thompson . we pray they may be read . clerk of the peace . dec. . . was my condition more desperate and uneasie then it is , i desire no greater satisfaction then to have done my duty to so good a master , i wish it was of more use to him ▪ that is not my fault , nor of those i have acted with : let it be looked into what has been foretold both as to engl. scot. and irel. and see if most of it is not come to pass already , and the rest will follow if not prevented . i wish it may also be considered what usage we have met with from men imployed , and how they have left your business and friends ; how they managed it , you will know from all hands ; things they could not do , nor durst not undertake were better undone then not done by them . men in this place , and in these times , must have some courage as well as sence to do any thing with people here . it is not my own ill usage makes me say this , but my concern for one i wish the best to in the world , and will give my proofs of this upon all occasions . i need not enlarge , since all our grievances are known to him that brings this . for my own part i will stay here , so long as i can be safe , if with ne're so great trouble ; but it would be some comfort to know men ( when driven from hence ) may be so ; therefore the reports of peoples usage are terrible , as well as of the indiscretion of st. germ. family , we feel the smart of it by ridiculous letters falling daily into the hands of the government . their master and mistress are little obliged by it no more then we : if there is any thing , sir , you do particularly command me , or depend upon me for , let me know it . i cannot undertake much , nor furnish more . i have still helped every body , and paid to every thing i could ; and if a twelve month ago my condition was what i then represented , you best know if it has been mended . vse , and considering that of others , makes me grow more contented ; and if the prospect of misery to us all was any satisfaction , that is now plainly seen . pray god bless us all , by restoring every man his own , and you with long life . he that gives you this , hath furnisht for your use to me , &c. two hundred pounds , which i desire may be repaid . mr. soll. gen. read the 'tother , it is in the same hand , and was enclosed in the former . clerk of the peace reads . i only beg madam , no ill malicious report may take any place in your thoughts , in regard to me . i value your good opinion , and will endeavour to deserve it . i can do little towards , but wish most heartily for your happiness . i know no interest , madam , but my masters and yours , nor do i think they are to be made two : if you command me any thing , i will faithfully obey you , as i have ever done him . we all here depend upon this bearers accounts of us and our condition . his faith and courage hath been enough experienced . mr. serj. tremani . here is another paper , shew that to c. billop . which was done . capt. billop . this paper i did mark , and this was one that was in the bundle . l. c. j. pillexfen . what is it brother , pray open it . mr. serj. tremani . 't is a draught of a cipher , with an alphabet of names for carrying on the correspondence . mr. serj. thompson . your lordship observes these matters were designed to be carryed on under several sorts of cants . l. c. j. holt. what says captain billop to that paper ? capt. billop . that was one of the papers that i read at my lord nottinghams , and markt it there . l. c. j. holt. then read it . clerk of the peace reads . for mrs. anne russell , to be left with mrs. richeson at the blew bore in ryder-street , near st. james's . a — the king. b — the queen . c — the prince of wales . d — the prince of orange . e — canon and the scotch officers . f — the duke of berwick . g — duke tyrconnel . h — major general sarsfield . i — lieutenant general shelden . l — king of france . m — marshal luxemburgh . n — marshal belford . o — duke powis . p — dutchess powis . amsterdam — breast . rotterdam — deip. hague — hauvre de grace . brill — dunkirk . harlam — callis . italy — england . germany — scotland . spain — ireland . mr. serj. tremain . then the next papers we produce are the bills of exchange ; pray shew them to capt. billop . what say you capt. billop , were those among the other papers ? capt. billop . yes , they were i remember very well . mr. serj. tremain . my lord , they are in french , and therefore we must swear a gentleman that we have here , to interpret : call mr. humphry levermere . mr. levermere , here i am . ( he was sworn . a londres , le septembre . monsieur , les presante vous sera rendus par monsieur orbinet , qui est un de mes bon amis , & qui se fera cognoistre par quelque personne de vostre cognoissance . vouz m'obligerez tresenfiblemant en de luy rendre service en tout ce que vous pouires . il pourra vouz communiquer quelque affaire en commission vouz pouvez avoir confiance en luy de toutes les manieres je vous prie doncque l'obliger en tout ce que vous pourriez . je suis monsieur , vostre tres humble & tres obeissant serviteur p. du livier . a mon. mon. jo. du livier , paris . a londres le decembre janvier . monsieur , avn jour de veue il vous plaira payer par cette premiere d'eschange , a l'order de mr. michel orbinet , trois mille trois cents trente trois livres valeur , du dit sieur suivant l'advis de vostre tres humble & tres obeissant serviteur , p. du livier . a mon. mon. jo. du livier , paris . londres le decembre janivier . pour liv. . monsieur , avnjour de veue , plaira payer par cette me premiere d'eschange , a l'ordre de mr. michel orbinet , trois mille trois cents trente trois livres tournois , valeur du dit sieur & suis . vostre tres humble serviteur , j. berionde . a mon. mon. anthoine pelletyer , merchand , a paris . london the th december . sir , this present will be delivered you by mr. orbinet , who is one of my good friends , and who will make himself known by some person of your acquaintance . you will very sensibly oblige me in doing him service in all that you can . he will be able to communicate some affair in commission ; you may have confidence in him about all points : i pray you then to oblige him in all that you can . i am , sir , your most humble , and most obedient servant , p. du livier . to mr. joseph du livier . paris . london the th , december january . sir , at one days sight be pleased to pay by this first of exchange to the order of mr. michael orbinet , three thousand three hundred thirty three livres , value of the said gent. according to the advice of your most humble , and most obedient servant , p. du livier . to mr. joseph du livier . paris . london , december january . for livres . sir , at one days sight be pleased to pay by this my first of exchange , to the order of mr. michael orbinet , three thousand three hundred thirty three livres tournois , value of the said gent. and i am your most humble servant , j. berionde . to mr. anthony pelletier , merchant , at paris . mr. serj. tremain . pray how much do they all come to ? mr. levermere . they come to l. wanting but twelve pence . mr. s. tremain . my lord , we have shewn your lordship part of the papers that were taken in this pacquet , but we have reserved three of the papers till the last place ; and these three papers , if we had no other , were sufficient to maintain this indictment , for they are written all with my lord preston's own hand , wherein he gives an account how the french should invade us , how the forts may be taken , how london should be plagued , and what a sort of rascals the clergy of london are ; these are the contents of the papers among other things . pray shew them to captain billop . ( which was done . ) capt. billop . these were two papers that were in the pacquet , and the other little one with them . ld. preston . my lord , i would desire your lordship to observe one thing , to the best of my remembrance , capt. billop said , he only mark'd six of the papers . l. c. j. holt. how many has he sworn to ? ld. preston . i believe he has proved more . capt. billop . i never said so ; i mark'd a great many , tho' not all , but i did not say how many . mr. serj. tremain . were these papers taken in the pacquet ? capt. billop . yes , all three . ld. preston . just now he said but two . mr. sol. gen. have you look'd upon them all , sir ? capt. billop . yes , i marked but two of them , but the other little paper was with them , i read them my self , i remember it very well . mr. serj. thompson . then we pray the clerk may read them . ( cl. of peace reads . ) lady d. l. and l. for shop-debts — mr. s. thompson . my lord , we would open this piece of evidence before we read it , that it may be understood , and we shall prove it to be my lord's hand afterwards . it consists of many heads and particulars , without order or method , and seems to be no more than memorandums made by my lord preston , to put him in mind what he was to enlarge upon when he came thither . ( cl. of peace reads . ) lady d. l. and l. for shop-debts . pension upon the — deckt ships . — britania , ad. soveraign out and r — james . d rates , make the and . sundry hospitals and fire-ships , some built on purpose proportionable . of third rates most mann'd : not mann'd , great ones . rest in some proportion'd mann'd , not well manned , nor will be . — britania not out till march , the rest perhaps in april . — the french must be out in april , and in the downs : look in at the spithead to secure them . the dutch fleet cannot then joyn them . carter and others at portsmouth , the likeliest men to come to him — dutch fleet sail , from , to guns ; — from to — the rest betwixt and — get to it before the conjunction , otherways nothing . to fight in the chops of the channel ; not to come so high as beachy — portsmouth not mann'd above — one gibson a scotch pedler — lands behind south-sea cattle — nothing but pallisado's about gossport — jennings , or strickland , or trevannion comes from st. maloes in one night — most of the gentlemen have done him most mischief , the tarpaulins his best friends , which despirited — danby desires to be in the monk , keeps and fortifies hull — king not to be on board the fleet — foolish letters from st. g's taken every day in the d. post , and read in council — about june — england great ships . dutch — commanded to us , to act by themselves — russel in the britania admiral — killegrew the blue — the duke — ashby the royal james — delaval the soveraign , vice-admiral blue — carter the vanguard — those who shall not oppose or resist him to be pardoned — not days coming in , or shall not help the p. of o. l. to the states of holland — no taxes in his time — and the k. of fr. will require nothing — chimney-money to be taken away — not excepting outlaws — scotland — let know whether the king will come or not soon , and acquaint him with the weakness of the pr. councel — dashes — or the like of f. of — that 's some kind answer — mr. east merchant of bristol to be kept till called for william st — from amsterdam — alexander — england — george — scotland — dorset , cornwallis , mountague , stamford , shrewsbury , macclesfield , monmouth , devonshire — in feb. the k. come to scotland — endeavour to unite the episc . and presbit . parties — a less sum not interfere with the fr. k. from highlanders — campaigns — land at leith — the scotch army not a french one , good suedish foot , the reputation of a protestant ally , two months to settle scotland — a commission given to me from mr. p. — for fl. hinder eng. and d. from joyning — two vessels of l. price for pensilvania , for or months — ormond and brandon disobliged about the guards . to have seamen from denmark and holland . — to save cambell . — to be left at the ship in sheets westminster . — flanders . — r — scotch ships in new-castle harbour to plague london . — the modest enquiry , the bishops answer . — not the chilling of them . — but satisfying of friends — to tell him that to protect friends , and so soon as forreigners are gone , he will dismiss his . — the woman that was with the k. in ireland , and sent commission to stafford , and failing , not to be sent again , her friends live in covent garden . — private letters not . — protesting lords against the usurper , three of five against the vacancy of the crown , beauford , newcastle , thanet , sawyer , lutwich , pemberton , levintz , winnington , mountague , shore . — london clergy the worst , we have their wishes , and they their oaths . — k. betrayed by j. porter , seymour said it . — lord nottingham says there will be a peace with fr. and the k. left out . — bring forreigners to drive out forreigners , then dismiss them , leave all to a free parliament . — no justices of peace , &c. actually in commission to be criminal . l. c. j. holt. well gentlemen have you any more evidence ? mr. serj. tremain . my lord , we shall now prove these papers to be my lord preston's own hand . pray call mr. warr , mr. townesend , sir henry johnson , and mr. bland . mr. townesend sworn . mr. serj. thompson . pray shew mr. townesend that paper . ( which was done . pray , sir , whose hand-writing is that ? mr. townesend , i believe this to be my lord preston's hand ; i did not see him write it . l. c. j. pollexfen , are you well acquainted with my lord preston's hand ? mr. townesend . i have seen his lordship's hand sometimes . l. c. j. pollexfen , how often ? mr. townesend , not very often , but i have seen it sometimes . mr. serj. thompson , pray were you a clark in any office ? mr. townesend , yes , i am in the office of the great wardrobe , where i have had occasion to see his lordship's hand sometimes , and i believe this to be his hand . mr. serj. thompson . look upon the t'other two . mr. townesend . i do believe these three papers are my l. preston's hand . mr. serj. tremain . those are the three papers that have been read last , which he says are my lord's hand . mr. townesend . i do believe it , sir. mr. serj. tremain . pray look upon that paper , with the little one within it ; do you know whose hand that is ? mr. townesend . i did not see it written , sir. mr. s. tremain . do you believe you know who writ it , by the hand ? mr. townesend . the latter part looks like my lord preston's hand ; but i cannot well say any thing to the other , it is written so small . mr. serj. tremain . then swear mr. bland . ( which was done . mr. serj. thompson . give him the papers . we ask you , mr. bland , whether you were well acquainted with my lord preston's hand ? mr. bland . i have seen my lord's hand sometimes . mr. serj. thompson . have you looked upon those papers , sir ? mr. bland . yes , i have . mr. serj. thompson . pray whos 's hand are they ? mr. bland i do believe these three papers are my l. preston's hand-writing . mr. serj. tremain . then we pray mr. warr may be sworn . ( which was done . mr. serj. tremain . do you know my lord preston's hand ? mr. warr. i have seen my lord preston write , but not very often ; most commonly it was only his name : but i have seen him write some letters too . mr. serj. tremain . pray , sir , look upon those papers ; whose hand are they do you believe ? mr. warr. this paper seems to be like my lord 's preston's hand ; the other i cannot say much of , because that which i commonly saw him write was a large fair hand , and this is a little hand . mr. serj. tremain . pray mr. warr , look upon these seals ; whose seals were they ? mr. warr. i believe the seals to be my lord preston's ; one of them was his seal when secretary of state. mr. serj. thompson . you were under him in that office , were you not ? mr. warr. yes , my lord , i was . mr. s. tremain . now my lord , we have done with our evidence , and shall rest here till we here what my lord preston says to it . l. c. j. holt. my lord preston , you have heard what has been said concerning the matter you have been indicted for ; what has your lordship to say for yourself ? l. c. j. pollexfen . if the gentlemen of the jury desire to see the seals , they may have them . [ the seals were shewn to the jury . mr. sol. gen. my lord , we have done for the present . l. c. j. holt. then if your lordship please , you may make your defence . l. preston . my lord , in the first place i must refer myself again to my indictment , for i find , my lord , that the treasons of which i am accused , were none of them done in the county of middlesex , and they are laid to be done within this county ; i find nothing of that kind proved upon me to be done here , for any memorandums that they say may be in that hand , i hope the gentlemen of the jury will consider , that there was nothing followed upon any of these things , that may be found in those papers : and in the next place , i desire to know , whether they are sufficiently proved to be mine ; that is , whether similitude of hands is proof or not against me in such a case . i humbly offer these things to your lordship , and hope your lordship and the jury will consider of it . l. c. j. holt. is this your lordship's defence , my lord ? l. preston . my lord , i leave these things to the consideration of the court and the jury . l. c. j. holt. your lordship insists upon it first , that there is no act of treason proved in the county of middlesex ; and then , whether similitude of hands be a good proof to prove these three papers , or any of them to be your hand . l. preston . no body saying they see me write them , if i did write them . l. c. j. pollexfen . my lord , have you no witnesses , nor nothing that you would use of evidence for yourself ? l. c. j. holt. would your lordship disprove any thing of the matter that has been proved against you ? lord preston . i must deny the whole fact ; but i have no witnesses or evidence to offer you . l. c. j. holt. then your lordship has no more to say ? lord preston . i have not , i must leave it so with your lordship and the gentlemen of the jury . mr. sol. gen. we shall offer nothing farther , but leave it wholly to your lordship . l. c. j. holt. your lordship has done then ? lord preston . your lordship observes none of the witnesses have declared that i was going into france , nor knew any thing of it . i did not hire the ship , nor any thing of that kind ; tho' i suppose if they had , it is not treason ; but your lordship observes there is no such thing has been sworn . l. c. j. holt. my lord , as to the first matter that your lordship makes a question upon , whether there be any act of treason proved in middlesex , that does depend upon the proof of your lordship's being concerned in the papers , for if your lordship had an intention in carrying these papers into france , which speaks a design to invade this realm , your lordship took boat in middlesex at surrey-stairs , in prosecution of that intention , there is an overt-act in this county of middlesex . lord preston . your lordship and the gentlemen of the jurie observe these papers were not found upon me . l. c. j. holt. no , my lord ; but if it be proved that your lordship had an intention to carry these papers into france , and took boat in order to go with them into france , in the county of middlesex , where-ever your lordship acted in order to that design , that is treason , and there you are guilty . it is a treason complicated of several facts , done in several places . lord preston . my lord , i humbly desire to know , whether they have been proved to be my parpers ? l. c. j. holt. that is a question that must be left to the jurie upon the evidence . l. prest . no body swears they are mine , nor were they found upon me . l. c. j. holt. but what i am speaking to your lordship , is in answer to your question about the place , for you say , that there is nothing proved done in the county of middlesex ; now the question is , whether your lordship had a design to go to france with these papers ; if you had , and if your lordship did go on ship-board in order to it , your taking boat in middlesex in order to go on ship-board , is a fact done in the county of middlesex . l. prest . it is not proved by any witnesses that i designed to go into france . l. c. j. holt. that is before the jury upon the evidence . l. prest . i hope your lordship , and the jury will observe 't is not proved , and in the next place , there are no papers taken upon me , with humble submission , there is no proof of any such thing . l. c. j. holt. well , how far your lordship was concerned in these papers , and whether you were going with them into france , is to be left upon the evidence that hath been heard , to the consideration of the jury . l. preston . but i humbly submit that . l. c. j. holt. have you any more to say . l. preston . as to what i offer , that nothing has been proved in middlesex , i hope your lordship will take it to be a point of law , and then it ought to be argued ; and i desire i may have councel . l. c. j. holt. no , 't is a matter of fact only ; but if you please , the rest of my lords the judges may give you their opinion ; for this is a question upon a supposition that your lordship was guilty of a design of going into france , and this with a purpose to depose the king , and alter the government ; then the question is upon such a supposition that you were guilty of that design whether you were guilty in middlesex or no. l. preston . my lord , they have not proved that design . l. c. j. holt. we do not say , it is taken for granted now , but 't is a question upon a supposition . now my lord , i 'll tell your lordship in short my opinion , the rest of the judges will tell you theirs , i am of opinion , if your lordship had such a design to go with these papers into france , and these papers were formed by you , or you were privy to the contents of them , then it is plainly proved , that you went into a boat in the county of middlesex , in order to carry on this design , and that will make it a good indictment , and here is a plain overt-act of high-treason in middlesex . l. c. j. pollexfen . i am of the same opinion ; for your fact as to this particular point in law stands thus : you are indicted of high-treason in two points ; one is , for conspiring to depose the king and queen , and alter the government : and the other is , for aiding and assisting the french king , and his subjects , declared enemies , and in open war against the king and queen , and to invite the enemies of the kingdom to invade the kingdom . now this design , and this help and assistance , are written in these papers ; for they are instructions for the carrying on of this design . you my lord are the person that is charged to go with these papers to help on this design ; you began your journey in the county of middlesex , for according to the evidence , you took water at surrey-stairs , which is in the county of middlesex , and every step you made in pursuance of this journey , is treason , where-ever it was : so then here is a sufficient proof of a fact in middlesex . l. preston . that , my lord , is a point of law , and i humbly desire your lordship , that i may have councel in this case . it is not proved by any body , that i said i would go into france ; and in the next place , it is not proved that i had these papers about me ; there has been no evidence given that i did take water with an intention to go with these papers into france . l. c. j. holt. the jury are to be judges of that . l. prest . then , my lord , what have i done ? i have not done an thing within the danger of any statute upon which i am indicted ; besides , my lord , what i have to offer further , is this , i think i ought to have two credible witnesses to prove every fact , and i hope the gentlemen of the jury will consider , there is nothing but supposition as to me ; and i hope i and my family shall not be ruined upon a supposition . l. c. j. holt. has your lordship any more to say ? l. prest . all the judges have not given their opinion . l. c. j. holt. the rest will give their opinions , if you desire it . my lord chief baron , what say you ? l. c. baron . my lord preston , i am called upon , it seems , to give my opinion in this case , but this i take it must be left to the jury . what credit they will give to the proof , your lordship makes a question , as the proof stands , whether here be any thing done in this county ; here are instructions given to the french king how to invade england and carry on the war against us . these instructions are contained in several papers , and these papers in a pacquet are carried to the smack , which smack was hired to go to france . you are found taking water at surrey-stairs , which is in the county of middlesex , in order to go to the smack : you did go to the smack ; the papers were taken in your company , and were seen lying by your seals ; and the witnesses swear , they believe some of them to be your hand ; you took care to desire to have them disposed of . now how far the jury will believe this matter of fact , that is thus testified , is left to them ; this seems to be the proof , and if the jury do believe it , here is a plain evidence of an overt act in the county of middlesex . l. preston . i do insist upon it , with humble submission , it is not proved that these papers were taken upon me , or that i did take water at surrey-stairs to go to france . l. c. baron . that must be collected out of all the circumstances ; the credit of which is left to the jury . l. ch. j. holt. all the rest of my lords the judges are of the same opinion , as they tell me ? have you any more , my lord ? l. preston . i must submit . l. c. j. holt. gentlemen of the jury , my lord preston stands indicted for high treason , in imagining and compassing the deposition , death , and destruction of the king and queen ; and for that purpose , did write , or cause to be writ , several treasonable papers and letters , designed to go into france , and there to correspond with the french king and his subjects , who are enemies to the king and queen ; and to carry with him those treasonable papers and letters , containing a project and a formed design how this kingdom should be invaded by foreigners . there is another treason in the indictment mention'd , and that is for adhering to the abetting the king's enemies , there being open war declared between the king and queen , and the french king. you have heard , gentlemen , a very long evidence , witnesses have been produced viva voce , and several papers have been read to you ; some of the papers that have been produced , tho' they may seem misterious and canting , yet they are not so very obscure and unintelligible , but if you consider them well , the meaning of them will appear . others of them are more express , and do plainly demonstrate a design , that this king and queen should be deposed , and that there should be another prince set upon the throne , and restored to the government of this kingdom . gentlemen , there are two other persons mentioned in the indictment with my lord , and tho' my lord is only now upon his tryal , yet the evidence which doth affect them , doth also concern my lord. you have heard how there was an intention of some persons to go to france , and how mr. ashton , one of the two others that stands indicted with my lord , did 〈◊〉 with one mrs. prat , one of the witnesses , to hire a vessel for that purpose , and it was by the means of one mr. burdett , that lives in the city ; they had a meeting at burdett's house , where they treated about the price that should be given for the hire of this ship to go to france , but at that time they did not agree . it was concluded , that the woman and ashton and burdett should meet at the wonder tavern , but mr. burdett not being there , nothing was concluded upon then . after that the woman , mr. burdett , and ashton , and elliott , met at mrs. burdett's ; the woman insisted at first upon l. after they had been treating for some time , the bargain was made to go to france for l. then the next thing considered was , how this money should be paid ; by agreement , guinea's and d. which made up the l. was deposited in mrs. burdett's hand ; a six-pence broken one part mrs. burdett had , and the other part of the six-pence mr. ashton had ; and when either mrs. pratt , or the master of the vessel did bring back that part of the six-pence that ashton had to mrs. burdett , the money was to be paid . after this agreement , they were appointed to go to the seven stars in covent-garden , to the house of one mr. rigby , and there the woman , mrs. pratt , and the master of the vessel , ashton and elliot met , and they were that night to go away and to take water at some place near to go on ship-bord ; and having stayed there till it was about ten a clock at night , then they went away into the strand and so into surry-street , and took water at surry-stairs . but before that they came from mr. rigby's , some persons went to surry-stairs to see for a boat and met with that fellow that was here produced , who was a sculler , and did hire him to go through the bridge when the tide served , and to carry some gentlmen on shipboard ; they agreed with him for half a crown , and he was to stay in an house near the stairs until they came . and at the time appointed , mr. ashton and mr. elliot and the master of the vessel came to that place , and my lord preston and his man with them to take water . my lord preston was not at burdett's house at the hiring of the ship , nor at mr. rigby's ; but it is proved by the master of the vessel , that he took water with the rest of them at surry-stairs , that he went with them on shipboard , and was to go along with them . being on board the ship , they did appear to have some apprehensions of danger , and passing by a man of war , my lord preston , his man , and the other two went unto the quarter-hatches , where they lay down to prevent themselves from being taken or discovered ; and they hid another time when they came near gravesend , and coming up they seeing a boat coming towards them , they hid themselves again . captain billop , who , it seems , was sent to apprehend them , pretended he was to press seamen , and when he came on board the smack he said he would press the mariners , who answered they had a protection : but he being upon his search pulled up the boards of the quarter-hatches , and there was my lord preston and the other persons lying down : it was not a place that was very proper for gentlemen , or indeed for any passengers , to repose themselves in ; it was an uneasie place , no body could stand or sit upright in it , nay there was no convenient place for lying down but they must lean upon their elbows , which posture those gentlemen were in ; so that their purpose was plainly to conceal themselves , and their concealing themselves must be because of some design they were about , which they would not have discovered . they being taken out from under the hatches , one of the witnesses tells you he saw a pacquet lying there , and ashton pretending to fetch his hat , went down , took it up , and put the pacquet into his bosom ; and the witnesses informing captain billop thereof , he caused ashton's coat to be searched , and from thence took the pacquet and a piece of lead tyed to it , which was produced here in court. when they were bringing away in custody , they seemed all of them to be very much concerned about this pacquet ; some of them , that is , ashton and elliot , would have had it thrown with the lead over-board . my lord preston did not say so much , but complimented captain billop in this manner , he was glad he was fallen into the hands of a civil gentleman , a person of worth , and he should always acknowledge his kindness , and would do him all the service he could if he would dispose of the pacquet . my lord preston was searched at that time , and letters of no great moment taken about him . ashton and elliot would have had captain billop to take those letters which were taken in my lord preston's pocket and tyed the lead to them and have thrown the pacquet over-board , and to report to the king and council , that those letters were the pacquet that was taken with the lead , and so have perswaded him to be false to the trust that was reposed in him . and ashton and elliot used many expressions to induce him to that compliance ; they told him the government was unstable , and every dog had his day , and the tide would turn ; and that he would deserve very well if he would change sides and go with them where they were going , and that he had opportunity to get any preferment he would have . lord preston . my lord , i hope your lordship observes that i said none of all this . l. c. j. holt. no , my lord , i do not say you did ; my lord preston did not say any thing of all this , but only about disposing of the pacquet that his lordship spoke of to captain billop , and complimented him , and promised him kindness if he would dispose of the pacquet . but , gentlemen , as there was a pacquet taken , so there were two seals taken at the same time and in the same place , which have been produced and shewn to you ; they lay both of them upon the balast under the quarter-hatches , near the pacquet : the one of them is the seal of my lord preston's own coat of arms , the other seal belongs to the secretarys office , which office my lord once held in the late reign . lord preston . i beg your lordship would be pleased to observe that the papers were not taken upon me , and it can be no treason to have seals , i suppose . l. c. j. holt. good my lord , i will not do your lordship any wrong ; i do not say that the papers were taken about you ; no nor the seals ; but only that they lay upon the ballast from whence the pacquet was taken : and i say further , that these seals are not denyed by your lordship to be your seals ; the one is your own seal of your coat of arms which was taken at that time , and so i do not your lordship any wrong , and by the grace of god will not . lord preston . it is no crime , i hope , to have seals . l. c. j. holt. i do say , my lord , the papers were taken about ashton and not about your lordship ; but they lay upon the ballast where the seals were , and where your lordship lay : but how far my lord preston is concerned in this matter , is to be considered by you of the jury by and by . now , gentlemen , you have heard how earnest mr. ashton and mr. elliot were ; one of them , to wit , elliot , wisht a thunder-bolt might strike the boat under water as they were coming back ; and when they came through bridge he wisht that london-bridge had fallen upon them and knockt them upon the head . lord preston . but i hope that is not to lye upon me neither , for i said no such thing . l. c. j. holt. no : but ashton and elliot did say these things , and how the case stands as to that in relation to your lordship is to be considered . it is proved they afterwards gave mony to the seamen , half a crowna piece , to two of them , to say they were going to flanders , and not to france . now gentlemen , that my lord was on board this vessel , that my lord was under the hatches , and that the papers were taken in this manner , is beyond all contradiction : so likewise that the ship was hired for france ; that my lord took water at surrey stairs , and was taken in this vessel in that manner that you have heard . the next thing gentlemen is about the papers : i must tell you though there are several of them that do seem mysterious , yet they are papers that do shew a very great design of deposing the king and queen , and a purpose of altering the present government . but gentlemen , i will mention to you those papers that are very plain , and leave you to consider what construction to put upon those that are obscure . there is one paper that seems to be instructions and heads for a declaration , that is to say , that the king of france must not come with a design to make an intire conquest . l. preston . my lord , with submission to your lordship , i hope you will please to remember and observe to the jury , that paper is not proved to be mine . l. c. j. holt. no my lord , i 'll do your lordship no wrong , but i cannot speak all my words at once . l. preston . i am sure you will not my lord , but i beg leave to put your lordship in mind . l. c. j. holt. well then gentlemen the paper begins , that the kings declaration is to be formed in general terms , that he will govern by the laws , that they shall be the rule of his actions , that he will endeavour to settle liberty of conscience by a law , and that whatsover was done by him that gave any occasion of jealousy , shall be setled by parliament . that he hath given sufficient proofs and evidence of his not being willing to bring an army of strangers into the kingdom , by refusing the succours the king of france offered him , and that were ever ready to be embarqued upon the first notice of the prince of orange's coming . that he brings such an army only as is necessary for his own defence , and securing such of his loyal subjects as should come to him ; and that he will dismiss them as soon as he shall have rid the nation of those foreigners that had invaded us , and trampled upon the laws . so that gentlemen , here is a paper in this pacquet , that has plainly laid open and proved the design , and shews the meaning of it was to seduce their majesties subjects from their allegiance ; it was to be in such general terms , making general promises , hoping thereby that people would be the more easily imposed upon to renounce their allegiance to their present majesties . but gentlemen , the declaration imports farther , that the realm was to be invaded by foreigners ; and to palliate it , it is pretended that foreigners were only to be brought in to rid the nation of foreigners , and you know who are meant by that : so that this project was only to colour a foreign invasion ; and this declaration was to direct them how and upon what pretences they should invade this kingdom . gentlemen , there is no manner of doubt but this is a treasonable declaration , and if any person had this in his possession , and was going into france to carry , with an intention there to make use of it , that is treason , though it be coucht under specious pretences of restoring people to their liberty : it was plainly a design to invade england by a french army . l. preston . my lord , that paper was not found about me . l. c. j. holt. no , no , my lord , it was not ; but good my lord give me your favour , i will certainly observe every thing that is sitting ; but i tell you i cannot do it all at once . then gentlemen , there is another paper found in the pacquet , that is said to be the result of a conference that was had between divers lords and gentlemen , as well tories as whiggs as they call them , to prove it possible to restore the late king by french arms ; and how this may be effected , were proposals made : yet still it was pretended to preserve the protestant religion , and the civil administration according to law. and that it might be brought to pass , the credulous were to be imposed upon , and made to believe that the french king would not conquer england for himself ; no , but he would conquer it for the late king ; he would be at that vast charge , that great expence of men and arms to restore king james , and make no profit of it himself . and it was proposed how to seduce the people of england into a belief of the french king kindness ; he was to indulge the english protestants in france , and let them have the exercise of their own religion there at their own charges ; and this to satisfy the english protestants , that his persecution of the hugonots in france , was not out of aversion to the protestant religion , but only because of their antimonarchical and resisting principles . so that they were proposing among themselves what they were to do to make the people believe the french king had no dangerous design against our religion and liberties ; and if they could meet with persons to believe this , that was a probable way thought upon in this conference to get a great many adherents to the french king , thereby his invasion to be facilitated , and the whole project rendred more successful . there is another thing gentlemen , in this paper , and that is this ; they complained of the mismannagement of their affairs at st. germains ; that though they did earnestly desire the restitution of the late king , yet there was always some foolish thing or other that came from st. germains that obstructed their design . what that foolish thing is , i can't say , it does not appear ; but whether it were not too great a discovery of their zeal for popery , and the advancement of the popish religion , is worth your consideration . and something is to be done for satisfaction of the people as to that ; and it is advised that there should be seven or nine , or such a number of english men that should go over , and be received into favour at st. germains , and they should be of the councel there , and these were to be protestants ; and that was to be a colour and pretence that the late king was reconciled to the protestant interest , because he chose protestant counsellors , and had received them at st. germans , and was advised by them . this , says the paper , will make the world believe , he is ours , and that we have gained him ; which was to delude a great many of the people of england , that they should not be affrighted in case there should be such an invasion of england , but invited rather , and encouraged to joyn with the french when they came . but gentlemen , the three last papers that have been produced to you , are papers that do somewhat more nearly concern my lord preston . the first paper contains several memorandums ; it begins with lady d. l. who that lady d. is , i must leave it to you to imagine , tho' perhaps it may not be hard to guess . it takes notice that the english and dutch were like to joyn ; and these memorandums do also shew a design and purpose of something to be done for the prevention of that conjunction . they seem also to be instructions to be made use of upon going into france to negotiate or transport some matters of dangerous consequence . l. preston . my lord , i hope that your lordship will observe , that these memorandums are broken kind of notes , incongruous and incoherent . l. c. j. holt. ay my lord , they are so , they are but broken things ; but i say still , they are memorandums that were to be used for some purpose : now i leave it to the jury to consider of the matter of them : what can be plainer than what is there expressed ? the french are to come in time , before the dutch and the english joyn ; they are to watch their opportunity and come betimes , and they are to fight at the chops of the channel , and not to come so far as beachy . l. preston . this is all but presumptive evidence , my lord. l. c. j. holt. i appeal to your lordship if it was not in the paper , and i appeal to the memory of the jury whether i misrepeat it or not . the paper mentions gennings and strickland and trevannion , that they were to come from st. mallo's in one night ; the king ( meaning the late king ) was not to be on board ; and there were ships to lye at newcastle , to plague london : it is easy to understand what they meant . among these memorandums , it is made as a remark , that the london clergy are the worst . it gives an account how portsmouth was fortified , and gosport , and what number of men were in them ; and of the state and condition of our navy ; what rates our ships were , and how many , and who were to be the commanders . l. preston . i beg your lordship to observe this is not treason . l. c. j. holt. i shall tell you that my lord , by and by ; i am now stating the evidence . gentlemen , my lord preston insists upon it , that these papers were not found about him : it is true , they were not , but it does not therefore follow that they were none of his papers : but you have three witnesses , mr. townsend , mr. bland , and mr. warr , produced to prove these papers to be my lords hand ; mr. townsend says he was acquainted pretty well with my lord preston's hand ; he was one of his clerks in the office of the wardrobe ; he says he has seen my lord write several times , and does believe the writing to be his hand ; and to the same purpose says bland ; and mr. warr swears to one of the papers , that he believes it to be my lord preston's hand . l. preston . i hope your lordship will please to observe to the jury , that this is only a proof of similitude of hands , no body see me write them . l. c. j. holt. they only say they do believe it to be your hand , no body says they saw you write them ; if i omit any thing , pray tell me when i have done . gentlemen , there are other papers which have been produced and read , that are writ in canting terms , which yet plainly shew the general design ; they tell the party that council are of opinion , he has a very good title ; they hope he will appear himself , and if the cause be well solicited it may come to a hearing before the end of easter term. there is another matter mentioned in another letter which is under the disguise of trade , that the goods must come before the first of march. and another of them says , that unless the copper and the linnen come before the tenth of march they should lose this summers profit . gentlemen , what can be the meaning of all this ? lord preston . i know not indeed , my lord. l. c. j. holt. in another of the papers it is said , 't is thought our fleet will be ready by march or april , but they believe not till june . truly , gentlemen , i have not been able to take the particulars of every letter , but i must leave it to your observation ; only there is one of them that makes mention of acquainting my lord with condition of the writer , and direction is therein given to speak to the bearer ; and what other lord was there , but he in the company ? lord preston . i desire to observe , my lord , that i was not the bearer . l. c. j. holt. truly , my lord , i can't tell who was meant ; i must leave it to the jury to judge of that ; but there was no other lord in that company . lord preston . i give your lordship thanks for observing that it was not proved that they were taken upon me before ; but i beg your pardon for interrupting of your lordship . l. c. j. holt. interrupt me as much as you please , if i do not observe right ; i will assure you i will do you no wrong willingly . now , gentlemen , the question is in the first place , whether this be treason ? and i told you before , without question , if any persons do go into france to negotiate such a design as this , or do purpose to go into france , and do any act in order thereunto , that is high treason ; and these letters do import high treason as great as can be committed , a treason againg the king and queen , a design to invade the realm , to subvert the government , to restore another prince to the throne by the assistance of foreign force . there was a design to delude and impose upon a great many people , and those that would not be deluded into a belief by these fair pretensions of friendship , they were to be subdued by an army of foreigners . then , gentlemen , the next question will be , how far the lord preston is affected by this evidence , and whether you have sufficient proof from what has been offered , to satisfie you , that he is guilty of this treason or no. first my lord tells you , there has not been a clear proof that these are the papers that were taken ; for ( saith he ) they have been conveyed from hand to hand , and therefore possibly there might be some alteration made in them . you , gentlemen , are to consider , notwithstanding this objection , whether the identity of the paper be not proved . captain billop tells you he took them , and in what manner ; and afterwards carried them to my lord nottingham , who laid them by for a little while upon his table , and captain billop withdrew ( that is part of my lords objection ) while my lord nottingham examined my lord preston : after that , my lord nottingham called in billop again , and billop swears the pacquet was not opened , but remained intire in such manner as they were delivered to my lord nottingham ; and so says my lord nottingham . then captain billop saw my lord nottingham open it at that time , and he saw all these papers every one put up again by my lord nottingham ; so that he could not be deceived : and my lord nottingham delivered them to him , and he carried them to my lord president all sealed up with my lord nottingham's seal : and my lord president tells you he opened them , and brought them to the king , and had them back from the king ; but they were never out of his sight while the king read some of them , but he took them all and brought them to the cabinet-council , where my lord sidney received all these papers that have been read , and marked them . you have my lord sidney's oath that these are the papers he had from my lord president ; you have my lord presidents oath that he had them from billop sealed with my lord nottingham's seal ; you have my lord nottingham's oath that he had them from billop ; and billop swears that they were taken in the smack . so that it is plain , if you believe this evidence , that they are the same papers . besides , as to several of them , billop marked them , and swears directly to them . if you believe these witnesses , as you have no reason , i think , to the contrary ; it is plainly proved these are the very papers which were taken from the bosom of ashton , and taken up by him from under the quarter-hatches in the smack . lord preston . i beg your lordships pardon for one thing . l. c. j. holt. my lord , what say you , pray ? say what you will. lord preston . with humble submission , there is one thing that i think the jury ought to take notice of , that when the papers were sent from mr. bridgman to my lord sidney , they were sent by a messenger . l. c. j. holt. my lord , you are mistaken as to that objection , for my lord sidney did not send them to mr. bridgman by a messenger , but he delivered them with his own hand , and after he had set his own mark upon them ; and mr. bridgeman says they were never out of his sight , he copied them all but two or three , the other mr. poultney copied in his presence , and so he swears he redelivered them to my lord sidney . lord preston . with humble submission , my lord , if i remember right , they were in a third hand . l. c. j. holt. never , never . lord preston . did not my lord sidney say so , or mr. bridgman ? l. c. j. holt. no : neither my lord sidney , nor mr. bridgman said so ; i suppose the jury are apprehensive of the matter ; i would not mislead them , i 'll assure you , nor do your lordship any manner of injury in the world. lord preston . no , my lord , i see it well enough that your lordship wou'd not ; i am for my life , and beg your lordships pardon for my interrupting of you . l. c. j. holt. gentlemen , the next thing is to consider , whether my lord preston be answerable for these papers , or a party in this treason . first , gentlemen , i would have you to consider that there was the hiring of a vessel for france : it is true , my lord preston was not present at the bargain ; but you observe that my lord preston , his servant , ashton and elliot took water at surry-stairs on purpose to go on board that smack . now , gentlemen , whether or no you can intend any other ways than that my lord preston was privy to the hiring of this vessel , though he was not present at the hiring of it ; for how should my lord preston be ready to take water with them at surry-stairs ? can you imagine my lord came there by chance , and took a suddain resolution ? if you can imagine that he came only to go on shipboard without knowing the previous design , truly you imagine a very great thing for my lords advantage . it is plain he went voluntary without compulsion ; truly , i think the evidence is very strong to induce you to believe he was privy to this design , and that he did know of hiring the vessel . lord preston . i hope your lordship will observe at the same time , that i was never seen before we took boat. l. c. j. holt. my lord i have observed it , and i lay that weight upon the evidence , that i think it will naturally bear , and no more ; and leave it to the jury to consider , whether your lordship was privy to the design or no , when they weight the circumstances of the evidence together . lord preston . i hope i shall not be condemned upon presumption and argument . l. c. j. holt. what weight the evidence has they will consider . and then , gentlemen , there is another thing that i would observe ; why should my lord preston , a noble man , a person of his honour and quality , put himself in such a place as he was found in , and that twice ? it must sure be out of an apprehension of some danger as for the seamen they were secure enough ; they were not frightned , because they thought they were protected , and my lord preston knew he was not lyable to be prest ; the master of the vessel tells you they were fearful , and therefore hid themselves in a place they could not stand in , nor sit in ; there was the the gravel and ballast , it was uneasie to them , dangerous to their health to be there . gentlemen , why do men avoid the light and put themselves under covert , unless they have some evil design ? persons that are innocent seek not obscurity . the seals were found there , and my lord does not deny they were his seals . lord preston . i do not deny that , i hope it is no crime to have such seals . l. c. j. holt. ay , but says my lord , that does not affect — because the papers were not found about me , but were found about ashton . gentlemen , if you can imagine my lord preston had a different design from the rest of the company that were with him , then you may acquit my lord , and find him not guilty . but it is left to you to consider whether he had not the same design with them . besides there 's mention made in one of the letters , my lord , and there was no other lord but he ; and here are papers proved to be my lord 's own hand , containing several of the matters of which he stands indicted , and he would have had the captain to have disposed of the papers . now , gentlemen , what account does my lord give you where he was going ? it seems they did pretend at the time they were taken , and they would have had the master of the vessel said , that their design was for flanders ; but the witnesses tell you positively , that the vessell was hired for france . truly , gentlemen , i must leave the matter to your consideration whether my lord be guilty of this design or not guilty . there is another thing that my lord has urged ( for i would not willingly omit any thing material on the one side or the other ) he says his indictment is laid in the county of middlesex , but the papers were not taken there , the ship they went on board lay at anchor in surrey ; and when they were taken it was in the county of kent , and so there is no proof of treason in middlesex . ay , but gentlemen , give me leave to tell you , if you are satisfied upon this evidence , that my lord was privy to this design , contained in these papers , and was going with them into france , there to excite an invasion of this kingdom , to depose the king and queen , and make use of the papers to that end , then every step he took , in order to it , is high treason , where-ever he went ; his taking water at surry-stairs , in the county of middlesex , will be as much high-treason , as the going a ship-board in surrey , or being found on ship-board in kent , where the papers were taken . gentlemen , i have failed of recollecting several of the particulars of the evidence , because they are many ; and you will not depend upon my recollection of things so very incoherent as some parts of the evidence in the papers are , but upon your own notes and observations . if you do think , having heard this evidence , that my lord was not concerned in this matter , that my lord had no design to go into france with these papers , but that he was an utter stranger to all these things , then you are to acquit my lord. but if you believe my lord was privy to , and knew of the hiring of this vessel , and that he went to carry on the design , conteined in these papers ; and that he wrote some of these papers , and with the others , he was acquainted , then you are to find him guilty . l. c. j. pollexfen . my lord , if you please , i would observe one thing , to the jury . l. c. j. holt. ay , by all means my lord. l. c. j. pollexfen . gentlemen of the jury , i shall say but a few words to you , because indeed my lord has summ'd up the evidence very fully , for matter of law : i am fully of opinion there never was a more black nor horrible treason than is in this plot that is now discovered ; for i think englishmen have no greater enemies than the french and the papists , and you see this is a plot to bring in both ; and therefore i think there was never any thing of greater consequence to the government and the nation than to have this plot detected and punished ; tho' perhaps never any thing was more improbable than this same plot , that it should ever take effect , whatsoever they promised to themselves , and their desire of having it effected might perswade them to the contrary . but , gentlemen , the thing that i would mention about the matter before you now , is this ; here are three papers that by three several witnesses , acquainted with my lords hand-writing , are testified , as they believe to be his hand-writing ; if so , then there is an end of all , for therein is a horrid deal of treason conteined . if these instructions , these memorandums , these heads that were written down were my lords , and he did intend to go with these in a voyage towards france , that will be sufficient of it self , if there were nothing else in the case , to maintain this indictment . but , gentlemen , you have in the rest of the papers , that were taken , a great character of the bearer ; that the bearer had done great things ; that the bearer could inform them fully of every thing ; and there should be full and intire confidence put in the bearer , and a great many such phrases . but , says my lord , i was not the bearer , it was mr. ashton that the papers were found about ; it does not appear directly who the bearer was ; and they were not found about me . now , gentlemen , pray let us look a little how this evidence stands : pray where was this bundle found ? even upon the gravel , where my lord preston and mr. ashton lay ; there was it found , and my lord 's own seal with it . how , in the name of god , came my lord's seals to be found with other peoples papers , if they did belong to any body else ? how came they together in that place ? it may be he had a mind to leave his seals behind him , because they would discover his quality . but why should my lord preston have all this fear upon him ? why should two men go and take a ship for themselves a●d two others ; and when they come to take boat , take in my lord and his man , if they were not the two others that were designed ? and this to be done at night in the dark ? why should my lord be under such terrible apprehensions as to creep into a hole so unfit for one of his quality ? why do you not hear from my lord some good account upon what occasion my lord and his man were going to france ? or whether else my lord was really going ? for somewhere or other it was plain he was going . gentlemen , no man goes into an enemies country without some licence , unless he go upon some ill design : fear seldom is without some guilt ; and there appears , throughout the whole management of the story , that there was a great deal of fear upon these gentlemen . besides afterwards , when he is taken , and the letters taken with him in the same company , you hear what endeavours there were to suppress the truth , even by my lord 's desiring , to have the pacquet disposed of ; and my lords man gave one of the seamen half a crown to say they were going to flanders , not to france . i suppose the man knew how unfit it was to be known that they were going to france : and my lords two companions spared for no pains to get the pacquet thrown over-board ; tho' all that my lord said was what great kindness he would do him when it lay in his power , if he would dispose of the pacquet ; i suppose that is very easily intelligible . gentlemen , there is one thing which is mentioned in one of the particular letters that i desire particularly to observe to you , and that is all i shall say to you ; here is a letter in my hand that in divers places has somwhat remarkable , it says , your daughter and i must starve , if this government can make us : that the party did net repine at all for having lost all for your sake , which your favour had bestowed . and in another place this letter doth say , your daughter grows very tall , and very pretty , as i am told . but that which i chiefly mention it for , is , it 's twice mentioned , my lord will tell you all my condition , how i have been used ; and i have told my lord my condition : what i desire of you , he thinks very moderate . and pray consider and remember , that the first article of my lord's paper , that is taken to be under my lord 's own hand , there is two thousand pound to the lady d. now if any body should put these together , do they lack any great interpreter for ? for my part i leave them to you . then in aother place , towards the end of the letter , it is said , pray , sir , ask my lord how i have been used . now this letter being thus taken , and there is never a one of the rest that was a lord , do you think any of the rest was meant ? i must leave it to you . if my lord preston had produced any testimony to prove his own good carriage and behaviour towards the present government , it had been very much for his advantage , and might have had great weight with you ; but when things appear only in this manner as they do now , i must leave it to you . gentlemen , 't is a great matter , and of great moment ; if those that conspire against the kingdom , against the protestant religion , and against the present government , may do it with impunity , it will be worth the considering what the consequence of that may be . your own consciences require you to do right and justice on both sides ; and if you are satisfied he is not guilty , you will find him so ; if you are satisfied that he is guilty , you will find him so . l. preston . my lord , may i have the liberty to say any thing before the jury go out ? l. c. j. holt. you lordship should have said what you had to say before . it is contrary to the course of all proceedings in such cases to have any thing said to the jury after the court has summed up the evidence , but we will dispence with it . what has your lordship to say ? lord preston . my lord , i humbly thank your lordship ; i am not acacquainted with such proceedings . l. c. j. holt. my lord , you know i permitted your lordship to interrupt me as much as you wou'd , which was never done before in any such case . l. c. j. pollexfen . it is contrary to the course of the court : but yet if you have any thing to say to the court or the jury , for this once we permit it . lord preston . gentlemen , of the jury . — l. c. j. holt. my lord , what you have to say pray direct your self to the court that we may hear what it is . lord preston . my lord , i only desire the jury may be informed that i am a protestant , that i was baptized in the religion of the church of england , and have always lived in it , and hoped to dye in it . my lord , 't is true , things have been urged with severity against me that are a little hard in making , that which i hope will amount to but a presumption , to be a proof ; as in the case of the letters that are written in a cant , and my intention to go to france , and those words in the letter , where my lord the bearer is named . but your lordship observes , that that letter is not directed to any body , and that is full of cant as well as all the rest : why should i be supposed to be the bearer any more than either of the others , and they were found about one of them ? but , my lord , for the reason of my going beyond sea , it was this ; i designed to go to flanders or any place i could be driven to , and that ought not to be wondred at ; for really i who had lived quietly after the loss of my places , upon this revolution , and suffered great inconveniences in my estate , and was retired to my own house , with a design to live a retired life , was imprisoned twice in the tower , and proclaimed a traytor in every market town , without any indictment ; and my imprisonment tendded greatly to the impairing my health and my fortune ; all this made me very uneasie here : and , my lord , i went under a fixed resolution to go to flanders or any place where i thought i could be quiet . l. c. j. holt. my lord , your lordship should have said all these things before , for it is not the course to reply upon the court ; if you had had any thing to say , you know we heard you out of course , and i let you interrupt me as much as you did think fit , though that has not been allowed at any time before . but , my lord , pray let me say one thing more : suppose your lordship did think your self hardly used , though i know not any reason you had to think so ; yet your lordship must remember it was in a time of danger that your lordship was taken up before , and you had shewed your dissatisfaction with the present government , and therefore they were not to be blamed if they secured themselves against you ; but 〈◊〉 you had a mind to retire into the country , or to go abroad , was fran●● the only country you could choose ? a known declared enemy's country at open war with the government ? lord preston . my lord , i beg your lordships pardon , if i give any offence . l. c. j. holt. no , my lord , you give me no offence at all ; but your lordship is not right in the course of proceedings ; i acquaint you with it not by way of reproof , but by way of information . lord preston . then i hope the gentlemen of the jury will consider , that all that is alledged against me is but presumption ; my life and fortune , my posterity and reputation , are all at stake ; i leave all to the jury's consideration , and the god of heaven direct them . l. c. j. holt. if you go on thus to reflect upon the court , you will make the court to reflect upon you . the jury hear how the evidence has been stated : i think it has been done very impartially , and without any severity to you : why should you think we would press the evidence further than it ought to go against you ? you are a stranger to most of us , and i am sure we do not desire your life ; but still we must take care that justice be done to the government and the kingdom , as well as to any particular person ; and evidence that is given must have its due weight and consideration : if any one can design innocently to go into france , at this time of day , with such papers , and in such a manner , that i leave to the jury's consideration . then the jury withdrew , to consider of the evidence , and the court adjourned for a little while , and returned in half an hour ; and the jury came in and were called over , and appeared . cl. of ar. are you all agreed of your verdict ? jury . yes . cl. of ar. who shall say for you ? jury . our fore-man . cl. of ar. sir richard graham , hold up your hand , ( which he did ) look upon the prisoner . how say you ? is he guilty of the felony and high-treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? fore-man . guilty . cl. of ar. what goods and chattels had he ? fore man. none at all that we know of . then the verdict was recorded . l. c. j. pollexfen . i think , truly , gentlemen , you have done according to your evidence ; and though it be a hard case upon particular men that have brought themselves in to these inconveniences ; yet it is necessary justice should have its due course , or else there is no longer living for any man in any society or government . then the prisoner was carried back to newgate , and the court adjourned till munday morning following at seven a clock . the arraignment , tryal , conviction , and condemnation of john ashton , gent. for high-treason against their majesties king william and queen mary , in conspiring the death and deposition of their majesties , &c. london : printed for samuel heyrick and thomas cockeril , at grays-inn-gate in holbourn , and at the three legs in the poultrey . m.dc.xci . die lunae , xix januarii , . the court being sate , the jury was called over , and the appearance of those who answered recorded , then mr. ashton and mr. ellyot were brought to the bar ; but mr. ellyot was ordered to be carried back to newgate , the king's councel resolving to try mr. ashton by himself . cl. of ar. john ashton , hold up thy hand . [ which he did . ] those men that you shall hear called , and personally appear , are to pass between our soveraign lord and lady our king and queen , and you upon your tryal of your life and death . if therefore you will challenge them , or any of them , your time is to speak as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . mr. ashton . pray stay a little . l. c. j. holt. what say you , mr. ashton ? mr. asht . my lord , i humbly desire your lordship will allow me the benefit of pen , ink , and paper . l. c. j. h. pray let him have pen , ink , and paper . mr. asht . and likewise that you would give my sollicitor leave to be as near me as possibly he can , only to refresh my memory , if i should forget any thing . l. c. j. h. that is a thing you cannot of right demand , the other of pen , ink , and paper you may . mr. asht . my lord , i shall acknowledge it as a very great favour . l. c. j. h. that is an innovation that ought not to be , the court cannot allow it . mr. asht . i acknowledge it a favour , but if the court thinks it not fit to allow it , whatsoever your lordship shall order i readily submit to . l. c. j. h. you shall have pen , ink , and paper ; and what is fit for the court to do they will do it . l. ch. bar. if the witnesses say any thing that you do not hear , you must speak to the court , and you shall have them say it over again . pen , ink , and paper was given to the prisoner . cl. of arraign . sir william hedges , knight . he appeared . mr. asht . my lord , i would not trouble your lordship and my self with unnecessary challenges ; i intend to put my self with an intire dependance upon the first twelve men that appear , be they who they will. l. c. j. h. what you please for that matter , you have your own choice . mr. asht . whoever they are , i submit to them ; i know them not . cl. of arr. swear sir william hedges . which was done . and so were the eleven next succeeding in the pannel ; and the names of the twelve sworn follow . jur. sir william hedges , knight . john wolstenholm , esq james boddington , esq thomas johnson , esq ralph bucknall , esq lucy knightley , esq thomas cuthbert , esq john herbert , esq john tully , esq thomas smith , esq william withers , esq and daniel thomas , esq then the jury were numbered , and proclamation made for information and evidence in the usual manner . mr. asht . gentlemen of the jury , if your desire pen , ink , and paper , i hope the court will take care to provide them for you . l. c. just . holt. ay , ay , let the gentlemen of the jury have pen , ink , and paper . which was done . [ which he did . cl. of arr. john ashton , hold up thy hand . gentlemen , you that are sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause : he stands indicted by the name of john ashton , late of the parish of st. pauls covent-garden , in the county of middlesex , gent. for that he , together with sir richard grahme , late of the parish of st. anne , in the liberty of westminster , barronet , who stands convicted of high treason , and edmund ellyot , late the parish of st. james , in the said liberty , gent. for that they as false traytors , &c. ( prout in the indictment , mutatis mutandis , ) and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . upon this indictment he has been arraigned , and thereunto hath pleaded not guilty , and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and the country , which country you are ; your charge is , to enquire whether he be guilty of the felony and high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ; if you find him guilty , you are to enquire , what goods or chattels , lands or tenements he had at the time of the felony and high treason committed , or at any time since ; if you find him not guilty , you are to enquire whether he fled for it ; if you you find that he fled for it , you are to enquire of his goods and chattels , as if you had found him guilty ; if you find him not guilty , nor that he did fly for it ; you are to say so , and no more , and hear your evidence . mr. knap . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; this is an indictment of high treason against john ashton , the prisoner at the bar , and the indictment , gentlemen , charges him , that he , as a false traytor against their present majesties king william and queen mary , his supreme and natural lord and lady , not weighing the duty of his allegiance , did upon the twenty ninth of december last past , together with sir richard grahme , who stands convicted , and one edmund ellyot , and divers others ill disposed persons unknown to the jury , did conspire , imagine , and intend to depose , and deprive the king and queen , and to bring them to death and destruction , and to subvert and alter the government ; and to cause war and rebellion within this kingdom against their majesties ; and to bring these intentions and purposes to pass , the prisoner , with the rest of them , did prepare diver notes , papers , letters , and memorandums in writing , which were to instruct the french king , and other enemies of the king and queen , of the number of their majesties men of war , how they were mann'd , and the names of the commanders of several of them , and to inform them how the castles and forts of portsmouth , southsea , and gosport were fortified , and how they might be surprised by the king's enemies , and of the times , wayes and means how they might invade the kingdom , in order to depose the king and queen ; and to procure and incite such an invasion , and further to bring these purposes to pass , the prisoner and the other traytors did secretly conceal , and detain in their custody several bills of exchange for the payment of money to the king's enemies , and the several letters , notes , and memorandums before mentioned , which were for the purposes i before opened to you ; and further to bring these purposes , and treasonable intentions to pass , they did for one hundred pound hire and prepare a ship , which was to carry them secretly out of this kingdom into france , with an intent there to deliver these instructions , and memorandums , and bills of exchange into the hands of their majesties enemies ; and did hire a boat to carry them to the ship , and did enter into it at st. clements danes , within your county , and rowed to the ship , and went on board the ship , and there with the bills of exchange , notes , and memorandums , they set sail to go to france , in order to deliver them to the french king , and other enemies of the king and queen ; and the indictment does further set forth , that there hath , and still is a war between the french king and our king and queen , and that he and his subjects are enemies to the king and queen and their subjects ; and that during this war , the prisoner , together with the rest that were before named , were adhering to the king and queen's enemies in this war ; and in pursuance thereof , did prepare such letters and instructions before opened , and had , and concealed in their custody , and hired a ship and a boat , and went into the ship , and set sail in order to go for france , to aid and assist the king's enemies there with money , intelligence , and counsel ; and this is ●aid to be against the duty of his allegiance , against the peace of the king and queen , their crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . to this he hath pleaded not guilty ; if we prove him guilty , you are to find him guilty . mr. serj. thomps . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner at the bar stands indicted of a very heinous offence , no less than high-treason , the greatest offence that can be committed against any humane law. you have heard the particulars in the indictment read . i will not trouble you with any repetition , but go to open the evidence according to the steps that are obvious in the case . you have heard in general the design was to depose this king and queen , which the law expounds to be to bring them to death and destruction : you have heard it was to alter the government , and cause a rebellion in the kingdom , and to bring in foreign power ; and these are laid to be the heads of the offences that the prisoner stands charged with . gentlemen , the first step that was made in this matter was by the prisoner at the bar ; for there was one mr. burdett , which it seems had been one of his acquaintance , and had undertaken to bring him acquainted with a person that could furnish him with a ship ; and in order to that , one mrs. pratt , that had the management of the smack which belonged to her husband , she , by burdett's means was brought to burdett's house , where met mr. ashton , the prisoner at the bar , and they had some treaties about the hiring of a ship ; the purpose declared by the prisoner then was to hire a ship to go to any part of france , and he would give a considerable reward for it ; he said it was for himself and three more . they did not come to any conclusion about hiring the ship then ; but there was an appointment made to have the master of the ship to meet with them at the wonder tavern in ludgate-street , and in order to that , paseley that is the master , and the woman came there , and met with mr. ashton ; but because mr. burdett was not there , they came only to this proposal , one hundred and fifty pound was demanded for the hire of this vessel ; but there being no conclusion then made , they thought it better to do it at burdett's house ; and about a day after they came to mr. burdett's , and then it hapned that ellyot , one of the persons that is indicted , but not one before you , came thither too ; and at that time it was agreed to give one hundred pound for the hire of the ship. ninety three guineys were deposited in mrs burdett's hands ; and there was a token past betwixt them by the breaking of a sixpence , one part whereof was to lye with mr. ashton , and the other with mrs. burdett ; and whenever the master of the vessel brought back the broken piece of sixpence that mr. ashton had , then was she to pay the money , that being the sign that they had attained their ends , and were safely landed in france . the next step they take , is this , they appoint to meet at the seven stars in covent-garden , thither the master of the vessel and the woman were to come , and that was near the time , that very day that they designed to go dow● and there was mr. ashton , and mr. ellyot , but the other person did not appear as yet , there the sea-men were ordered to go along with them , and thence they went down to the water side , to surrey stairs , and the waterman was called , and in the mean time came my lord preston and his man to them , and they four did go in that boat , by the direction of the master , and were carryed on board his smack . after they came on board ( for i would note the particular circumstances ) they were very apprehensive of danger , for they knew what they went about , their own guilt gave them reason of fear , and when they came near a man of war , which lay at anchor in long-reach in the river , they desired the master to hide them , that they might be safe from any search , and they were hid and put close under the hatches for some time ; afterwards when they came to another place of danger , it was by the block-houses at graves-end , ( as they apprehended ) there they desired to be hid again , and so they were put in that place where they were in very difficult circumstances under the hatches , and there they remained till a pinnace , that had been sent to enquire after them , came and boarded this same vessel . upon its boarding of them , the captain made a search , and found these gentlemen , my lord preston , mr. ashton , and mr. ellyot , and i suppose his man also , all hid under the hatches . then the next thing which is observable , gentlemen , and the great matter that will shew where the treason was , is this , there was a bundle of papers that was on board , ready prepared , if they had not been surprized , but could have had an opportunity for it , to have been cast over-board , and there was lead fixt to it , to have sunk it , and mr. ashton the prisoner at the bar , was the person that concealed this bundle of papers , betwixt his body and his coat , and from thence it was taken by the captain that took them . when they were so taken , the captain , according to his duty , was bringing the prisoners to whitehall , they desired to go on shore at graves-end , but the captain did not think that so fit , but carryed them on board the george frigot , and then you will hear these gentlemen did fall into a treaty with the captain , to suppress these papers , and one instance i remember they did tell him , that since there were a parcel of papers that he had taken out of my lord preston's pocket , he might take off the lead and fix it to those papers , and sink the others ; and what should he have for it ? they promised him great rewards , they told him he might be a great man , he had an opportunity of making his fortune ; and when that would not do , they used many threatnings to him , all which will appear in the several circumstances that the witnesses will tell you of . i come , gentlemen , in the last place to shew you , that all the whole conspiracy , all this treason , did lye hid under this bundle of papers that were taken from mr. ashton , and so he might very well be afraid of having them opened , for there you will find a formed design , to alter this government by a french power and assistance ; and they contain so many particulars , that in regard , i would not do the king's evidence injury on the one hand , nor the prisoner on the other , i will forbear repeating the particular instances . gentlemen , you will have all the letters and papers read , but in the general , i must needs say , you will find it manifest , that there is a black and wicked conspiracy to introduce a foreign power , to establish the protestant religion , and that by a popish interest , and to settle our laws , liberties , and properties , by a french army . and let them pretend what they will for the protestant religion , when you hear these papers read , no body will imagine it was to any other purpose , ( if the plot had taken effect , ) but to have what religion , what laws , the french king had pleased to impose upon us . if the prisoner be guilty , gentlemen , of these matters , i know you will do your duty ; but if he be not guilty , god forbid that you should find , him guilty . l. ch. j. holt. call your witnesses , brother . mr. serj. thompson . we begin with mrs. pratt . she was sworn . sir w. wil. look you , mrs. pratt , here is now another gentlemen at the bar to be tryed , against whom you are called as a witness . mrs. pratt . yes , my lord. sir w. wil. pray hear what we ask you . pray do you give the court and the jury an account , what treaty you have had with that gentleman , about a vessel to go to france , and what was done in it . mrs. pratt . if it please you , my lord , i was sent for to mr. burdett's house in queen-street by cheap-side , to know whether he could have a smack to go for france ; i told him yes , i could help him to one ; he told me , there were two or three gentlemen bound for france , as merchants to fetch silk , and i was at mr. burdett's two or three times , and at last mr. ashton met me there . l. ch. j. holt. look upon the gentleman , is that he ? mrs. pratt . yes , that is the gentleman , and he met me there , and meeting with mr. ashton , he hired the vessel ; but first of all , he desired us to meet at the dog-tavern upon ludgate-hill , to make the bargain , and we did meet there , and were there about an hour , or an hour and a half , and mr. burdett did not come ; and the next morning , mr. ashton desired me to meet him at mr. burdett's again ; and the next morning i met at mr. burdett's , and there we made the bargain for l. and there was sixpence broke in two pieces . mr. serj. tremain . was the hundred pound paid ? mrs. pratt . yes , but we agreed on the tuesday morning , and there was a sixpence broken in two , and mr. ashton had both the six-pences in his hand , and the tuesday night the hundred pound was paid at mrs. burdett's . mr. sol. gen. who was by ? mrs. pratt . there was one mr. ellyot , and the master of the smack , and mrs. burdett . mr. serj. tremain . did they pay the money in gold or silver ? mrs. pratt . this gentleman , mr. ashton , told the money , there was guineys and a sixpence , and mr. ashton gave one half of the broken sixpence with the guineys to mrs. burdett ; and when the master of the vessel brought the other half of the sixpence , or i , either of us , we were to have the l. sir w. wil. pray to what place did they hire the ship to go ? mrs. pratt . to france . sir w. w. who hired the ship ? mrs. pratt . that gentleman . sir w. w. who paid the money ? mrs. pratt . that gentleman , mr. ashton . s. w. wil. to what hand was the money paid ? mrs. pratt . it was paid in mrs. burdett's bed-chamber , into her hand . s. w. w. who broke the sixpence ? mrs. pratt . mr. ashton , that day the bargain was made . s. w. wil. who carried it away ? mrs. pratt . when the money was paid , mr. ashton had one , mrs. burdett had the other part . mr. serj. tremain . to which part of france were you hired to go ? mrs. pratt . to any part where they could touch . mr. serj. tremain . pray did they give you any note about any thing ? mrs. pratt . yes , they gave me one note to meet at the dog-tavern , and another to meet at the seven stars in covent garden . mr. serj. tremain . who gave you the notes ? mrs. pratt . mr. ashton and mr. ellyot . mr. serj. tremain . look upon that note . which she did . mrs. pratt . this to my best remembrance mr. ashton wrote , i cannot well remember the hand . mr. serj. tremain . did mr. ashton desire to meet at the dog-tavern ? mrs. pratt . yes , and he did meet at the dog-tavern , but burdett did not . l. c. j holt. when did you meet at the dog-tavern ? mrs. pratt . on the monday night before new-years-day . l. c. j. holt. when was the money paid ? mrs. pratt . on tuesday night , at mrs. burdetts . mr. serj. tremain . after the money was paid , what did you do the next day ? mrs. pratt . mr. ashton ordered a note to be written , to meet at the seven stars in covent-garden , at one mr. rigby's . l. c. j. holt. at what time were you to go to rigby's ? mrs. pratt . a wednesday night . l. c. j. holt. but at what time ? mrs. pratt . some time about ten a clock , and we came there accordingly ? mr. sol. gen. who was with you at rigby's ? mrs. pratt . there was the master of the vessel , mr. ashton , and mr. ellyot , and two gentlemen more , that i never saw before , nor since . sir w.w. i ask you again , who first treated with you about hiring this vessel ? mrs. pratt . mr. burdett first treated with me about it . sir w.w. who next ? mrs. pratt . mr. ashton . sir w.w. who made the bargain with you ? mrs. pratt . mr. ashton . sir w.w. who paid the money ? mrs. pratt . mr. ashton . sir w.w. what can you say more ? mr. serj. tremain . pray let me ask you , when you came to mr. rigby's , in what manner did you go away from his house , and what was said at parting ? mrs. pratt . mr. ashton was not there himself at first , but he and mr. ellyot , and two other gentlemen were there afterwards , and mr. ashton's wife said something about papers hove in a hat at court , and about some bodies being chosen ; and one of the gentlemen said there was nothing in that , i was one that was chosen last year . mr. serj. tremain . did ashton and ellyot go out together from mr. rigby's ? mrs. pratt . i did not see them go . mr. trevor . had you any directions from mr. ashton , to send for a hamper or a trunk ? mrs. pratt . yes , that was at mr. burdett's house . mr. trevor . when was that hamper and trunk to be sent for ? mrs. pratt . on the wednesday night before we went to rigby's house . sir w.w. do you know one william pasely ? mrs. pratt . yes . sir w.w. was he with them ? mrs. pratt . yes , he was with them . sir w.w. what occasion brought him thither ? mrs. pratt . i carryed him to mrs. burdett's house . mr. trevor . pray did the prisoner desire to see the master of the vessel , or speak with him ? mrs. pratt . yes , and when i brought him , he said he liked him very well . mr. trevor . what is the master's name ? mrs. pratt . william paseley . mr. serj. tremain . had you any discourse with mr. ashton's wife after they went away ? mrs. pratt . we had little discourse , onely she gave me some victuals and drink ; and she said she hop'd i would not tell of her husband . mr. serj. tremain . what else did she say ? mrs. pratt . she hoped god would deliver them out of the lyon's mouth . mr. serj. tremain . did she say any thing about cock crowing . mrs. pratt . yes , she said she thought she should have no good luck for the cock crowed . mr. serj. tremain . who was by in the chamber when the money was paid ? mrs. pratt . there was the master of the vessel by , and mrs. burdett . juryman . my lord , i heard her say somewhat of some papers , which i do not very well understand . does she know of any papers that the prisoner had ? mr. serj. tremain . that was only about the two notes . l. ch. just . holt. she talks of papers being shaken in a hat , but nothing can be made of it . l. c. j. pollexfen . if you would ask her any questions before she goes , now is your time to doe it . mr. ashton . my lord , i desire she may stand up again . mrs. i ask you a question , not so much in kindness to my self , as justice to another gentleman . you say mr. ellyot writ one of the notes . mrs. pratt . yes , as i remember , it was that to meet at mr. rigby's . mr. ashton . i doe it to justifie that gentleman , i take that note upon my self ; and you say i hired the ship , and mr. ellyot was by . l. ch. just . holt. look you , mr. ashton , mr. ellyot is not now upon his tryal , it concerns you only to ask such questions as relate to your self . what is said now concerning mr. ellyot , goes for nothing against him . mr. ashton . my lord , i doe it only to doe him justice . l. ch. just . holt. but you are to ask questions only for your self . mr. ashton . remember , good woman , you are upon your oath ; and have a care of forswearing your self ; my bloud is at stake . mrs. pratt . i am sure i say nothing but the truth . mr. ashton . did i ever speak to you of going to france . mrs. pratt . yes , you did . mr. ashton . as i hope for salvation i did not . mrs. pratt . and another thing you told me more ; if i help'd this well away , you would help me to the earning of a l. before lady-day . mr. ashton . gentlemen , as to what was said of that kind , of helping her to a l. is no great matter to the thing in hand ; for if i was minded to go out of the kingdom , it was necessary to use all arguments i could , to persuade her to help me to go away . l. ch. just . holt. mr. ashton , you must stay your time before you speak to the jury ▪ make your observations upon the evidence to your self , you shall be heard at large all that you can say in your proper time . mr. ashton . i do assure my self , my lord , of all the favour that can be shewn to a man in my circumstances . l. ch. just. holt. you shall have all that is just , i do assure you . mr. ashton . my lord , i am glad in the circumstances i am in , that i am to be tryed before your lordship . but , good woman , by virtue of the oath that you have taken , did i ever speak to you directly or indirectly of going to france ? mrs. pratt . yes , and you askt for a hole to hide what you might have occasion to keep secret . mr. ashton . but i ask you , about going to france ; did i speak to you about going to france ? mrs. pratt . yes , you did . mr. ashton . then , as i hope to be sav'd , i never spoke directly or indirectly of going to france to her . mrs. pratt . you were not to go for holland nor flanders , i am sure . mr. ashton . nay , i did take it for granted , that you did know before i met you , that we were to go to france ; but i never spoke to you of it in my life , that i am sure of ; but i only urge this to let your lordship know , that woman has forgotten her self . l. ch. just . pollixfen . mr. ashton , you will have all lawfull favour ; but your time for arguing upon the evidence is not come . mr. serj. thompson . you must ask your questions now , and make your observations afterwards ; you must reserve your self for that , till after we have done . mr. ashton . but then , my lord , i shall have too many things for my memory to retain ; and therefore i beg leave , as they occur to my memory now , and as the witnesses go along , to make my observations . mr. ser. tremain . mrs. pratt , pray , when the vessel was hired , and you were told it was to go to france , what persons did mr. ashton say were to go with him ? mrs. pratt . three persons he said were to go , but he did not name them . mr. serj. tremain . then set up william paseley . ( which was done . ) sir w. williams . what can you say of any for the hiring of a vessel ? paseley . i did not know the vessel was hired before i came thither . mr. serj. thompson . prithee tell us what thou does know . paseley . the woman came to me when i was at billingsgate , and said i must go a little way along with her : and as we were going she told me it was to go to mr. burdett's in queen-street ; and when we came there , ellyot and ashton were not within : but by that time we had been there a little while , in came mr. ashton , and presently after him mr. ellyot ; and mr. ashton bid the woman give him the money out of the place where it was . juryman . my lord , we do not hear him . sir w. williams . pray begin again , and speak out . pasely . i met with this woman at billingsgate , and she told me i must go a little away along with her . l. ch. just . holt. that woman , name her . pasely . mrs. pratt ; and i went along with her , and askt her where she was going ; she said up into queen-street : and coming to queen-street , we went to mr. burdett's house , i was never there in my life before . when i came there ashton nor ellyot were either of them there ; after a little while in came ashton , and presently after in came ellyot , and he went up stairs into the bed-chamber ; and being in the bed-chamber , they brought the money out , rolled up in a half sheet of paper , set up an edge , and told it out at the window . l. ch. just . holt. who told it ? paseley . ashton told the money out ; and after the money was told , he pulled out two pieces of a six-pence , and when he had pulled out the two pieces of six-pence , he gives one half to this mrs. burdett , and the other half he kept himself ; and he bid her pay this same money , when the other half six-pence that ashton kept came to this woman , to match that which she had ; and after the money was told , we stayed but a small while there , and came down stairs ; and when we came down stairs we went down to billingsgate . i think john fisher was there , and we carried away with us a trunk and a hamper ; john fisher carryed the trunk , and another man the hamper ; and after that we had carryed the things on board , i came up to the house again ; and after i came up to the house , they directed us to go to the seven stars in the little piazza , there was a note written to direct us , which ordered us to go thither betwixt and at night . when we came there , i think there was neither of them there at present , but by that time we had been there a small space , in they both came , and sat down ; and a gentleman came in and said the cock crowed ; and therefore they should have no good luck . and then they talkt about papers being tossed in a hat , i dont know what , and in came two gentlemen more , just before we went away , to see them ; and after those gentlemen had seen them , they staid but a little while . says ellyot to me , master , come along with me ; so i went along with him , and we came to surrey stairs ; and on the corner on the left hand , there was an ale-house . he called the waterman out of the ale-house , and he bid me go before , and i went down ; and by the time that i had gotten down , the waterman came and halled his wherry to , and i went in ; and by that time i was gotten to the stern , down came ashby and ellyot , and my lord , and his man. l. c. just . holt. you mean ashton , not ashby ? paseley . yes , my lord , that is the man. and after they had got into the wherry , and were seated , they bid the waterman put off from land , and so we went through bridge ; and after we were through bridge , we got on board the smack , and they got into the cabin ; and when they were got into the cabin , i called my men , and bid them hale up the anchor , and they did so ; it proved to be but little wind , but that tide we got below half-way tree , and were forc'd there to drop our anchor , and stay till the next morning : the next morning we weighed anchor , and by that time it was nine a clock , we got to long-reach , where lay the george man of war , and there they hid . mr. soll. gen. and how was the hiding , pray ? mr. paseley . it was down in the quarters under the hatches . mr. soll. gen. why did they hide ? paseley . we reckoned they would come on board a pressing , and they bid me show my protection . mr. serj. tremain . did they desire to be hid ? paseley . yes , and after we came by the george man of war , they came up again , and remained afterwards in the cabin , till we came almost to gravesend : a little before we came to gravesend , they all hid again ; and , when they were hid , remained hid all , i think , but only ellyot ; i think , he popt up ; and they were resolved to go eat their victuals ; but then i told them , there was a barge a coming , and so he went down again , and there they remained , till they were taken , for the barge was on board presently , and found them there . mr. serj. tremain . what kind of place was it , that they were hid in ? paseley . they could not sit , nor stand upright in it , but lay all along , or lean'd on their elbows . l. c. just . holt. what did they lie upon there , pray ? paseley . there was ballast , and slit deal a top of the ballast . mr. serj. thompson . well , what happened when the captain came on board ? paseley . when captain billop came on board , master , says he , you have got a couple of stout young men , i must press them , or to that effect . i hope not so captain , said i. why , what have you to shew , says he ? i told him , i had a protection . let me see it , says he : so i shew him my protection , and he looks in it . well , says he , master , i must look farther , and went to rights to the place where they lay , and found them lying all together . after they were taken , and were come out , captain billop commanded them into his boat , and commanded me , and my two men , to go into the barge ; afterwards he set his man on shoar at hungerford stairs ; and when we came to whitehall bridge , the gate was not opened , and we stayed a little while at whitehall bridge ; and when we came a shoar , ellyot gave me half a crown , and bid me say , when i came upon my examination , that we were bound for flanders , and not for france . mr. serj. tremain . where were you bound for , pray ? paseley . they examined me in the chamber , when they paid the money , if i knew they went to france ; and i told them , yes , very well . m. s. thompson . did they desire you to go to any particular port in france ? paseley . no , we were to touch at any place we could . sir w. williams . did they mention any thing of flanders to you ? pasely . no , they did not . l. c. just . holt. did any body mention going to france to you ? paseley . yes , they did . they askt me , whether i could carry them to france safe . l. c. just . holt. who did ask you that ? paseley . ellyot or ashton , one of the two , i cannot directly say which ; but if i be not mistaken , it was ashton . mr. serj. tremain . when you came from rigby's at the seven stars , who came away with you ? paseley . ashton and ellyot . mr. serj. tremain . did ellyot and ashton both come out with you ? paseley . yes , they did . mr. serj. tremain . and did they part , after they were come out ? paseley . yes , ashton did go away from us presently after we were come out . mr. serj. thompson . when you came on board , had you any discourse with ashton , about going to france ? paseley . no , not that i remember . l. c. just . holt. did you go on foot , from the seven stars ? paseley . yes . l. c. just . holt. and did they part , after you came out ? paseley . yes , they did . l. c. just . holt. and who went with you , did you say ? paseley . ellyot came with me . l. c. just . holt. whither went mr. ashton then ? paseley . i cannot tell , my lord. mr. soll. gen. what did he say to you , when he went from you ? paseley . he bid me go along with ellyot . l. c. just . holt. was mr. ashton there as soon as you ? paseley . not quite ; but by that time the waterman had got the boat to the shoar , and i in the stern , they were all come down . l. c. just . holt. when ashton came , who came along with him ? paseley . i saw them all upon the stair-head ; i was in the boat when they came . i never saw my lord , till he was upon the stairs . juryman . my lord , i desire to ask him , what the summ of money was , that was paid at burdett's ? pasely . it was guineas and six pence . l. c. just . holt. who brought it ? paseley . it was laid down in the window . l. c. just . holt. but i ask you , who brought it ? paseley . i did see ashton bring it , and lay it down in the window , and he told it out , and put it up again , and gave it to mrs. burdett . juryman . my lord , i desire to know , what is the usual rate to go to flanders ; what may a smack and three men deserve ? paseley . truly i cannot tell , i never went upon my own account in my life . l. c. just . holt. mrs. pratt , what say you , what is the usual rate to go to flanders or holland ? mrs. pratt . i believe they may go for a matter of l. or l. l. c. just . holt. you hear them , gentlemen , what they say . juryman . yes ; but , my lord , he says , he gave them notice the barge was a coming . i desire to ask him . did he know there was a design to search him or no ? paseley . sir , i knew that there was a search for seamen . l. c. just . holt. but did you know there was to be a search , in order to the taking these gentlemen on board you ? for that is the question , i believe , the jury wou'd ask you . pasely . no , i did not know it . mr. soll. gen. but you say , these gentlemen desired to be hid ? pasely . yes . mr. soll. gen. and you hid them according to their desire ? pasely . yes . mr. serj. tremain . before you went on board , had you any discourse of hiding ? did they ask you for a place to hide in ? paseley . yes , they did . mr. serj. tremain . who did ? paseley . ashton and ellyot both askt if there were a place in the ship to hide them , and i told them , yes , there was . l. c. just . pollexfen . mr. ashton , will you ask him any questions ? mr. ashton . my lord , i desire to ask him this question . did we desire you to come and hide us , or did you desire us to go down ? paseley . you desired this of us , that if we saw any man of war's boat we would tell you , that you might be hid . mr. serj. tremain . pray repeat that over again , did they desire you to give them information when any boat was coming , that they might hide , or did you desire them to hide your self ? paseley . they desired it of me . mr. serj. thompson . then set up charles betsworth . mr. serj tremain . before betsworth is examined , i would ask pasely one question ? was there any coat left on board you ? pasely . yes , there were two coats of the waterman's left on board , and i took them and lockt them up . mr. serj. tremain . is that the man that owned the coats ? paseley . yes , it is . sir will. williams . then , betsworth , will you give an account of what you know against the prisoner at the bar ? betsworth . i cannot tell , my lord , i never saw the gentleman in my life before , that i know of . sir will. williams . prethee hear , friend , tell what you know of carrying any gentlemen on board the smack . betsworth . if it please your lordship , i was going home from our stairs about or a clock in the evening ; that is , from surrey-stairs , and a gentleman called sculler . said i to him , sir where do you go says he ? as far as the tower , said i. 't is against tide , i cannot go ; it will be ten a clock before it be high water . says he , will you go with us at that time ? said i , what will you give me ? will you give me half a crown ? then i 'll carry you down , for i cannot stay out so late for nothing . yes , says he , i will give it you . then i came and brought my boat to the shoar ; he asked me then what my name was ; i told him charles betsworth . says he , will you be sure to stay till we come ? yes , said i , if you will be sure to come ; and if i be not here , i will be at such a house , an ale-house , that was there by ; the sign of the swan : so i staid , and carryed a fare or two over the water , and about a clock comes a gentleman down , and calls charles ; and i went out a doors down towards my boat , and there comes one gentleman down , and a kind of a seaman , as i thought ; and the seaman went into the stern , and the gentleman sate at the back-board , and there was three gentlemen more came down the stairs into the boat ; one had a whitish cloak , and the other a loose coat ; and they brought a leather bag that would hold about a peck ; so i put off with them , and rowed down the river , and all that i heard them say , was when we came under the temple ; says one of the gentlemen , when do you hear the king goes away ? says another of them , he goes away a tuesday ; and when we got through bridg , one of the gentlemen askt where the vessel lay , and the man in the stern said on southwark side , over against the tower , and when we came a little below battle-bridge near pickle-herring-stairs , the master said , there lies the vessel , and it had a long pendant and a top sail loose ; so they paid me before they came on board , and when they were got a board , away rowed i ; and when i came to land , and take out my sculls and things , there i mist my cloths ; and i rowed after them , thinking they could not be got far ; but when i came to the place where they went on board , the vessel was gone , and i rowed down as low as limehouse-reach , and in black-hall-reach i overtook a vessel , which i thought was the vessel . i askt them who they belonged to , and they said they came from horseliedown , and i made answer i brought two fares on board a vessel at pickle-herring-stairs ; and had forgot to take my cloths that they had ; they made answer , i brought no fare on board them , so i rowed on farther beyond barkinshelf , and because there was no wind , i thought none could have gone beyond that place , and therefore resolved to row back again when it was flood ; and i rowed up to greenwich , but could not meet with the vessel ; and i heard nothing of my cloths , till last friday was seaven-night i had my cloths brought me . sir will. williams . can you say this gentleman mr. ashton , the prisoner at the bar ; was one of them that you carryed on board the smack ? betsworth . no , i know never a one of them . mr. serj. tremain . but you say the persons that you took in at surrey-stairs carryed away your cloths with them ? betsworth . yes , sir. mr. serj. tremain . then i ask you , paseley , is that one of the persons that he brought on board your smack ? paseley . yes , he was . mr. serj. tremain . how many came on board the smack ? paseley . four ; my lord preston , mr. ashton , mr. ellyot , and my lord preston's man. mr. serj. tremain . did you take in your pendant ? paseley . yes , i did . mr. serj. tremain . when did you take it in ? paseley . assoon as we weighed anchor . mr. serj. tremain . how came you to take it in ? paseley . ellyot spoke to me , to take it in ? l. c. just . holt. look you , pasely , you were by when the ship was hired . paseley . yes , i was by when the money was paid . l. c. just . holt. did they mention how many were to go in the smack ? paseley . he said , they were three of them , not four , as i remember , that were to go . sir will. williams . will you ask him any think mr. ashton . mr. ashton . no , sir : but i desire the woman may not go out of court. l. c. just . holt. no , no ; she shall stay . m. s. thompson . then call john fisher , and james amonds . ( fisher stood up . ) sir will. williams . pray do you acquaint the court and the jury what you know of this matter , whether you carryed any things on board the smack , and what ; and who came on board , and what hapned . fisher . my lord , a matter of six hours before they came on board , my master carryed me a shoar , and brought me to mr. burdett's house , and gave me a trunk , and i went with it , and another man with a hamper , and brought them on board ; and about or a clock , my master comes and brings mr. ashton and the other aboard ; and he bid me go forward , and heave up the anchor , and so i did , and we went down the river ; but we could go but a little way because there was no wind ; and when we came to half-way-tree , the tide turning , we were forced to cast anchor again , and stay till the morning ; and in the morning we weighed anchor again about a clock , and about we came into long-reach , where lay the george man of war , and then mr. ashton and they hid ; and when we came below them again , they came up again till we came almost near the block-houses at gravesend , and there they hid again ; and mr. ashton i think came up afterwards , and bid me go down to the hamper , and fetch them up some victuals for their dinner , and i went down and fetcht up some beef , and mr. ashton took hold of it ; and i took a bottle of wine or two out ; and just before i brought all the victuals up , the barge was spied a coming to us ; and then he went down again : and there they hid , and the piece of beef was a top of them . captain billop , when he came near , waved his hat , to bid us lie by ; and we did lie by , till he came up to us ; and when he came up to us , says he , master , you have gotten a couple of good likely men , worth the coming on board for , says the master . i hope captain , you wont press them , says he . what have you to keep you clear , says he ? i have a protection . have you , says the captain ? let me see it : so he shewed him the protection , and he read both our names in it . then , says he , master , i must look farther ; and he went down to the quarter hatches , and took them up , just where they lay . first my lord came out ; and he searcht them all , as they came out . mr. ellyot came out next , and mr. ashton stay'd within , being the last man. and after he had searcht them , and done what he pleased ; he got all the papers and writings : then he commanded us all to go into the barge ; and they came on board the george frigat in long-reach . and at the ship , mr. ellyot came to us ; and bid us say , we were going for flanders . and after we came to whitehall , mr. ashton gave me a half crown piece , and bid me say , we were bound for flanders , and not for france . l. c. just . holt. was that after they were taken , or before ? l. c. just . pollexfen . when was the first time , that they would have you say , they were bound for flanders ? fisher . it was on board the george frigat in long-reach . l. c. just . holt. who was it that bid you say so ? fisher . mr. ellyot and mr. ashton both , in the ship 's steerage , where they came to us . l. c. just . pollexfen . where was the next place , that they bid you say so ? fisher . at whitehall bridge ashton gave me a half crown piece , and bid me say so . juryman . did he speak that aloud , or softly at whitehall ? fisher . he whispered it in my ear. l. c. just . holt. did they ever say they were bound for flanders , till after they were taken ? fisher . no. mr. serj. tremain . what manner of place was this that they hid in ? fisher . an ugly hole ▪ where a man has no room to lie along at ease ; he can neither stand upright , nor sit upright . mr. serj. tremain . did you see the waterman that brought them on board ? fisher . no. mr. serj. tremain . was there any waterman's coat left ? fisher . yes , there was two . l. c. just . holt. but didst thou see the boat ? fisher . we were a sleep when they came on board , and the boat was put off assoon as ever they came on board . mr. serj. tremain . then assoon as ever they were on board , you got up the anchor , and pulled in the pendant ? fisher . yes , we immediately hove up the anchor , and took in the pendant . mr. s. tremain . did any sculler hale you afterwards , as you were going down ? fisher . yes , as we were going down there did . mr. serj. tremain . what did you say to him ? fisher . i was not steering then ; but this other man made answer . l. ch. just . holt. mr. ashton , will you ask him any thing ? mr. ashton . when i gave you the half crown that you speak of , what did i say to you ? fisher . you bid me when i came to be examin'd , say we were going to flanders , and not to france . mr. ashton . what did i say else ? fisher . you bid me take that half crown for to night , to help to bear charges , and to morrow you would take farther care of us . mr. ashton . i told you you were prisoners now , and i gave you that ; and told you i would take farther care of you . fisher . you did not say we were prisoners , but you said you gave me that to help bear charges for that night , and on the morrow you would take farther care of us . mr. serj. thompson . then set up james amonds . sir w. williams . are you sworn friend ? amonds . yes , sir. sir w. williams . then let the court and the jury know what you can say in this matter . amonds . my lord , they came on board about or a clock at night , i was a sleep in the cabin , and heard a boat coming on board , and i turn'd out , and before i could get out of the cabin , they were got aboard , and i see no boat , nor nothing . so , says the master , go forward and heave up the anchor ; and after we had heaved up the anchor , i goes into the skip to tow the vessel down , because there was no wind , and we would not let the vessel go foul on the ships that were in the river , and a little after we came on board again ; and when i came on board again , they were all on board , all four . after that comes a water-man , and i was at the helm steering , and he called out to us ! oh hoe , says he ; did not i bring a parcel of gentlemen on board this smack ? not as i know of , said i , says he , i carryed a parcel of gentlemen on board some smack , that had a pendant out , and i know not where it is ; they carryed my cloaths on board with them . said i , i know nothing of it , nor i did not ; for i saw neither water-man , nor boat ; so away the waterman goes , and we went down the river , and when we came to half-way tree , we came to anchor , and my master went and laid himself down , the tide being almost done , and there being no wind , and mr. ashton and they lay in the cabin ; and says mr. ashton to me , take care of us now , and we will take care of you hereafter ; says he , we shall help you to many a freight , and many a pound . ay , ay , said i , you will be taken care of to be sure at day break , or when the day comes on ; about a clock , we hove up the anchor again , and fell down as low as long-reach , where the george frigat lay ; and when we came there , they went down to hide in the quarter hatches . i steered it down still ; and when we were got past that man of war , the hatches were taken up , and they came up again out of the quarters , and sate in the cabin again , and we had a fresh gale of wind , and run down to gravesend quickly , and when we came near the block-houses , said i , we are almost at the block-houses ; then said they we will go down again and hide a little ; and so they did till they were past there , then resolving to go to dinner . l. ch. just . holt. what time a day was this ? amonds . about a clock , as near as i can guess . mr. soll. gen. well , they did go down to hide then , did they ? amonds . yes , they did go down and hide , and came up again , i am sure some of them ; i heard some of them in the cabin . mr. soll. gen. well , what followed ? amonds . after they were gotten up , and past gravesend , this man was sent for victuals for them , and so he fetch'd them some roast beef , and some other things ; and just as the roast beef was going into the cabin , said i , here comes a barge off , to press . so when i cried , the barge was a coming , they took the victuals down into the quarters , and there lay they , and the victuals a top of them . and when the barge came near us , the captain waved his hat to command us to lie by . said i , we must lie by , for the barge is coming up to us . and we clapp'd the hel●●-a-lee , and lay by ; and after we were laid by , the barge came on board us . says the captain of the barge , you have got a couple of likely , good men , master , said he ay , says the master ; but i hope you won't press them . says the captain , have you got any thing to keep you clear ? yes , if it please you , noble captain , i have got a protection . i am sorry for that , says he , and comes on board , for he stay'd all this time in the barge ; and smiling upon him , he comes on board , and , says he , come , let 's see your protection . and the master shew'd it him , and he read it . says the captain , i must look a little farther . and he goes into the cabin , and took up the hatches , and there lay all these gentlemen . they were something longer a coming up than he would have had them ; so says the captain to his men in the barge , come on board , and see who is here . and so some of his men did come on board ; and , to the best of my remembrance , my lord was the first man that came up : and when my lord came up , the captain run his hands into his coat-pockets , to feel for papers , as i suppose ; and my lord desired the captain to be kind , and take nothing away . says he , i 'll take nothing but papers ; 't is papers i look for : and he pull'd out a watch , and gave it him again . after that , ellyot came out ; and whether he found any thing upon mr. ellyot , or no , i cannot tell . mr. ashton was the last that came up ; and when he came up , a water-man of the captain 's calls to him , and says , that gentleman that came up last has put something in his bosom , but what i can't tell . so the captain took mr. ashton by the arm , and turn'd him about ; and , says he , what did you put in your bosom ? says mr. ashton , nothing but my handkerchief ; and pull'd out his handkerchief , and shew'd him . then the captain put his hand in , and pull'd out papers , with a piece of lead tied to them . and that is all that i saw . mr. s. tremain . but tell us what happen'd afterwards . amonds . when that was done , the captain commanded us all into his barge ; and i row'd , and some of the rest row'd , it being cold weather , till we came up to london . after we came up to london , they did not say any thing to me , because i was a rowing till then . it seems they did give them some money , but they gave me none , not till i came into whitehall ; and then my lord's man came to me , and call'd me a one side ; says he , here 's half a crown , will serve you to night ; and be sure , when you come to be examined , that you say , you were bound for flanders , and not for france , and you will be taken farther care of to morrow . mr. s. tremain . what manner of place is that quarter-hatches ? amonds . they could neither fit , nor stand upright in it . mr. s. thompson . what did they lie upon ? amonds . there were three or four flit deals that were laid over the ballast , but it seems they had shuffl'd 'em on the one side when they were taken , for the ballast lay open . mr. s. tremain . did the water-man that brought these men on board you , leave his coat there ? amonds . i did not see the boat , nor the water-man ; and therefore i am not able to say any thing about it . mr. sol. gen. how came the pendant to be taken down ? amonds . i can't tell that , i was in the skiff when it was taken down . jury-man . my lord , i do not very well understand how the papers came to be taken away from mr. ashton . l. c. j. holt. he tells you , mr. ashton was seen to put his hand with something into his bosom ; and being tax'd with it , he said it was his handkerchief ; and the captain put in his hand , and pull'd out a bundle of papers . jury-man . did he see ashton take away the papers from any other place ? amonds . no , an 't please your honour , i did not see them till they were taken out of his bosom . l. c. j. holt. did you see captain billop take the papers from out of mr. ashton's coat ? amonds . yes , i did . l. c. j. holt. where were they before they spy'd the barge a coming ? amonds . if it please your honour , i heard 'em talk ; i thought they had been up , but it seems there was but one of 'em up when they said , the barge was coming a-board : i was at the helm , and heard 'em talk . l. c. j. holt. then you knew nothing of these papers , but when you saw 'em taken out of ashton's bosom ? amonds . no , my lord. sir wi. williams . if you will ask him any thing , mr. ashton , now you may . mr. ashton . pray friend , had not i been up first , and search'd before the papers were taken ? amonds . not as i know of . mr. ashton . did not i go down into the hold to take my hat , and call to you , and desired that i might go down for my hat ? amonds . i can't tell ; for when i saw the papers taken from you , i was in the stern ; i was not down . mr. ashton . had not i been search'd first ? amonds . not that i know of , till you were in the stern . mr. s. thompson . then swear captain billop . which was done , he standing up by the sheriff . mr. s. tremain . captain , i suppose you may be heard from that place . mr. ashton . my lord , i desire the witness may come down , else i shall not be able to distinguish what he says : it is the proper place for him , i think . l. c. j. holt. let him come down . mr. ashton . i humbly desire , my lord , that the witnesses may all be obliged to stay in court. l. c. j. holt. let them all stay . sir wi. williams . you are sworn , sir : are you not ? capt. billop . yes , i am . sir wi. williams . then , pray , will you give an account where you took these persons , how you took 'em , what you found , and how you disposed of it . capt. billop . must i begin from the beginning ? sir wi. williams . yes ; tell your whole knowledge , in order of time , as it fell out . capt. billop . what , from the time i went out ? mr. s. thompson . make it as short as you can . sir wi. williams . yes , you must tell all ; for you speak now to a new jury , and here is another prisoner at the bar to be tried . c. billop . the last of december , about two-a-clock , or between one and two , my lord of danby came to me at one of the doors of the house of lords , and told me , his father must speak with me ; and he carry'd me up to my lord linsey's chamber ; and in a little time my lord president came there , and told me , he heard there were divers persons that had papers of dangerous consequence , and were going to france , and desired me to use my skill for my seizing and securing of the papers . i began then to talk of what was proper for such an undertaking ; and i told my lord , i thought the best way , was to go to woolwich or dep●ford , and to take a man of war's pinnace with us : upon that , my lord of danby being by , said , he knew of a boat that he could have , which was my lord duke of grafton's ; and my lady dutchess had lent it him , and he would go , and get it ready : upon this my lord president said , he would give me a note of the name of the vessel , and where she went out ; and likewise a letter to another person , that would instruct me farther , and shew me the vessel ; accordingly my lord president gave me the letter , and i went away to look for the person , but could not find him . my lord danby came to tower-wharf himself with the boat ; and i left a man there to bring me word , when the boat came up at the place where i was ; and captain stringer , and sir thomas taylor came there to me . after my lord of danby had told me what i had in the boat , i told him , i thought there were not arms enough ; and therefore it were best to go to the tower , to borrow some arms from thence : when we came to the tower , my lord lucas was not come in ; and when i had staid a little time , he did come in : and when i had acquainted him with my business , he sent for an officer of the guard , and there we borrowed some arms , a blunderbuss of his , and a carbine , and the like ; and about eleven-a-clock , or somewhat past , we put off from tower-wharf . it was calm , and we rowed down towards gravesend ; and we went aboard a vessel or two , but was not willing to lose much time , because i was resolved to take them before they were gotten too far : so we rowed away for gravesend , where i refresh'd my men , and afterwards went down into the hope ; and i did judge , that no vessel that could come from london that tide could be a-head of me . i went on board several vessels that lay in the river , in order unto the pressing of men ; and i went on board all sorts of vessels , because i would give no suspicion of what i was about ; and having been on board of several , i pressed two or three barkin men ; and one particularly , that knew all the vessels upon the river ; and i made him to row very near to me , that i might talk to him ; i had got the names of a great many smacks , and gave it out , that i would press a smack to carry for a tender to my ship , when the fleet went out ; and naming this smack that i was to go to search , i told him , i heard such a smack sailed well , and i had thoughts of pressing her ; he told me , she was old ; but said i , she will serve a summer well enough ; and that is it i intend to press , if i can find her . says he , i 'll shew you her , i know her when i see her ; so we went on board several vessels , as we went along . and as we were rowing along before , we came to the nest point by tilbury fort , we saw several smacks coming down the river ; and when we came about the point , the headmost smack of all , the fellow , lookt out , and said , yonder is the thomas and elizabeth . then i called to one of my men to wave , and bring them to lie by , which they did , and they lay by till i came on board . when i came on board , i saw two lusty men stand by the master ; said i , master , you have got two good lusty fellows that would serve the king ; but i 'll be kind and civil to you , i 'll take but one . says the master , i hope not so ; for i have a protection ; and with that , i came on board , and took his protection in my hand , and read it . as soon as i had read it , i ask'd him , if he had no more men upon deck than what i saw . he said , no ; then , said i , i must look a little farther . and i went into the quarters , and took up the scuttle , and the hatches , and i saw some gentlemen lie . oh , said , i , what a pretty posture is this ? where are we a going ? gentlemen , you must turn out . the first that came to hand was my lord preston ; but i did not know him then , nor some time after i was in the boat with him : so i took hold of him , and help'd him up ; and when he was up , said i , sir , i must search you . says he , i hope you will take nothing from me . nothing , said i , but papers : so i search'd all his pockets ; and as i found any papers , i put them into my own coat-pocket . and i took his watch , and pull'd it out , and gave it him again : after that i had search'd him , came up mr ellyot the first man , and the next was mr. ashton , who crouded up while ellyot came up , in his night-cap . i think , mr. ashton , you had your night-cap on . so mr. ashton goes down again , and puts on a periwig , i think ; but coming up again , one of my sea-men sees him take something , and put it into his bosom : he follows mr. ashton quick , and pulls me by the coat ; and , says he , that gentleman has got something in his bosom : so i took hold of him , and turned him round ; said i , mr. ashton , what have you got in your bosom ? nothing , says he , but a handkercheif ; and immediately he put his hand into his bosom , and pluck'd out the handkercheif , and shew'd me . as soon as he had pulled out the handkercheif , i put my hand into his bosom , and there i met with the pacquet that had the lead affixed to 't ; and pulling it out , i clapp'd it into my own pocket ; for i thought that was the matter of moment that i was to secure . so i ordered them to go into the boat , and the master of the vessel to let go his anchor ; and two men i left in the vessel , whom i ordered to search , and to secure what they found till farther order ; and i left two musquets with them . and after we were in the boat , they desired to have somethings handed in , which i gave order for , a hamper , and a night-bag ; and away we put off from the vessel , and rowed up ; it was against tide , and very cold weather . in a little time mr. ellyot called one of the gentlemen , my lord ; then i whispered him , and ask'd him who that lord was , and he told me , it was my lord preston . then i saluted my lord ; and my lord was pleased to say , he was very well satisfied they were fallen into the hands of a civil gentleman . so rowing up against tide , and it being a westerly wind , which blow'd very fresh , my lord desired that i would let them stop at gravesend , till the tide turned , that they might refresh themselves . i begged his pardon , and said , there was a ship in long reach , the george-frigot , and we would stop there ; and i did not doubt , but i would command the great cabin for his accommodation ; and there he might have any thing that he wanted . my lord seemed contented with it ; but before we came on board the man of war , there happened a great deal of discourse betwixt us of several things . sir wi. williams . pray repeat it as well as you can remember what discourse happened . capt. billop . truly my lord preston being cold , and the hamper standing by , says he , captain billop , we have not eaten , we will eat if you will. and there was a piece of bief at the top of the hamper , and bottles of wine ; and i opened the hamper , sitting fairest for it , and handed out the beef , the bread , and the bottles ; and after we had eaten what we would , my lord ordered the rest to be given to the men that were the boats crew , and after we had done this , and taken out a bottle or two , and shut up the hamper again , my lord preston drank to me once or twice , and seem'd very well satisfy'd and pleas'd with his usage . he told me he was sensible of my civilities ; and if ever it lay in his power , he would not forget me . so we drank again , and talk'd again ; but before we came to the ship , my lord preston told me , that if ever it lay in his power , he would be sure to make an acknowledgment of the civility i had shew'd him . and to the best of my memory , he had this expression , if there ever was any thing he could serve me in , he would do it with all his heart , if i would but dispose of the packet . mr. s. thompson . what would mr. ashton have had you done ? what did he say to you ? capt. billop . mr. ashton said , it would do me no good to injure so many gentlemen ; and desired me that i would throw the packet over-board . mr. s. tremain . what did he mean by so many gentlemen ? capt. billop . my lord , i cannot tell , but that was his expression . mr. s. tremain . who desired you to throw the packet over-board ? capt. billop . mr. ashton did several times . mr. s. tremain . what did he say to you ? what arguments did he use ? capt. billop . my lord , it was so many times over , and so much mixture of discourse we had , that i am not able to tell the particulars . l. c. j. holt. but what arguments did he use ? capt. billop . i don't know that he used any more great arguments , more than what i have told you already . l. c. j. holt. say that again that you said before . capt. billop . he said , 't would do me no good to injure so many gentlemen . prethee , captain billop , says he , throw it over-board . mr. s. tremain . what did he say farther ? capt. billop . i 'll tell you , if you 'll give me leave . mr. ashton did say , a little after this , with a great deal of insinuation , captain billop , what if you should turn about , and go along with us ? no , mr. ashton , said i , that i cannot do . says mr. ellyot , prethee , throw the packet over-board . this they did as we came up the river ; and 't is the most that i can remember , till we came on board the george ; and when we came on board the george , ellyot called me into the steerage , and desired me , of all love , that i would dispose of the packet : and he said , that now i had an opportunity to make my self as rich , and as great , as i would , and no body could see it , if i did throw it away . while i was in the ship , mr. ashton , my lord , and mr. ellyot , were with me , in the steerage . said i , i shall be taken notice of , to be whispering ; pray forbear . ashton then spoke to me again , to desire me to throw the packet over board ; by this time the victuals was handed in , and there we eat and drank , and my lord smoked a pipe of tobacco , before the tide turned ; and when the tide made , we went into the boat again , and rowed up towards london , and they were using these sorts of arguments over and over again . and once mr. ellyot , i think 't was , to the best of my remembrance , told me , now you have it in your power to make your fortune , and may be as great a man , and as rich a man as you can desire . and mr. ashton said some words something to the same purpose ; prethee , said he , throw it over-board : what good will it do you ? so i refusing of it , as i did many times , mr. ellyot told me , that i might take the letters that were taken in my lord preston's pocket , and tye the lead to them , and throw the packet over-board . no , said i , mr. ellyot , sure , you would take the king's council to be a very odd sort of men , that they cannot find out such a thing as this . prethee , dear billop , said he , throw it over-board . many times whispering me in the ear ; and so did mr. ashton many times , saying , you may do us a great kindness in it . and we drank , and had several intermissions ; and they at me again , and i denied them , and they desisted ; and then they at it again : and mr. ellyot then told me , prethee , dear billop , throw it over-board . said i , mr. ellyot , if i should be so great a villain to do such a thing , if ever it was your day , would you trust me again ? put it to be your own case . says he , you have gentlemen to deal withal . but , said i , i will never put it into your power . mr. ellyot seem'd to be angry at this , and said , every dog had his day . said i , i hope never to see it your day : but i pray , forbear this discourse ; let me beg that of you ; for i do not desire to be provoked to use you otherwise than a gentleman . and after that , they never urged me more to throw the packet over-board : but mr. ellyot was angry , and very much disturbed , and wished a thunderbolt might strike the boat , and sink it . so i brought them up , through london-bridge , and they said no more about the packet ; but ellyot wished , that london-bridge might have fallen on our heads . at length , i brought them to whitehall ; and i put my man a-shore at hungerford-stairs , that he might get before , and give the porter notice at whitehall-bridge , that he might open the gate . i brought my lord preston , and the rest , to the bridge ; and while i was arming my men , to guard them up to my lord nottingham's office , i suppose they then took the opportunity to give the men money , getting near to them ; i know nothing of that : but i carried them up to my lord nottingham's , and there i delivered them , and the packet to my lord. after some time , the packet lay upon the table , and my lord nottingham sends me for my lord preston . when my lord preston came in , i withdrew without bidding , and the packet lay upon the table , unopen'd : and when my lord preston came out , i went in on my self , and the packet lay in the same place and posture , and not open'd . and i stay'd while mr. ashton was call'd in , and my lord nottingham ask'd him a great many questions . mr. ashton . pray repeat those questions , captain billop ; and what answers i made . capt. billop . truly , my memory does not serve me to remember all of them , and i was in a very uneasie condition at that time , and would much rather have been in my bed , than any where else : for the night before i went down , i had a plaster of spanish flies ●ut to my back , and they had raised a great blister , and it had not been dressed so long , that the napkin that was applied stuck so to it , that the flesh was jagged , and i was in a great deal of pain , so that i did not mind , so much as i should have done at another time , what was said . mr. ashton . but pray , captain , remember as much as you can what pass'd . capt. billop . but i 'll tell you what i remember ; i remember my lord nottingham asked , who i took the packet from ? and you owned , i took it from you . sir wi. williams . pray mr. ashton , give us leave to have done with him , and then you shall ask him what you please . pray go on , captain billop . capt. billop . then my lord nottingham sent for mr. ellyot in , and ask'd him whither he was going ? and he said , for flanders . my lord asked him , what he was going there for ? he said , he was going to seek his bread ; he was turned out of all at home , and he had rather go abroad to seek his bread , than stay at home to starve . mr. s. tremain . was this the lead , that you took fix'd to the packet ? capt. billop . yes , sir ; that is the lead . mr. s. tremain . did you take that lead , with the packet , out of mr. ashton's bosom ? capt. billop . this was tied fast to the packet that was taken out of mr. ashton's bosom . these honest men saw me take it . sir wi. williams . now , if you have a mind to ask him any questions , you may . mr. ashton . pray , captain billop , did not you search me before you took the packet upon me ? capt. billop . no , not that i remember . mr. ashton . had not you taken some other papers from me before ? capt. billop . no , sir ; i took none from you but the packet . mr. ashton . pray recollect your self , for perhaps my life may turn upon it : you are as much a witness for me , as for the king ; you are to swear the truth , and the whole truth . capt. billop . and i will do you all the justice i can , i will assure you . l. c. j. holt. answer his question , captain billop . mr. ashton . was not i the first man that spoke to you after we came up ? capt. billop . no ; mr. ellyot was the first man that spoke to me , that i knew . mr. ashton . did not i ask you to give me leave to go down for my hat ? capt. billop . truly , i don't remember that . mr. ashton . did not you reply , that the man should go down and fetch my hat ? capt. billop . 't is likely i might , but i don't remember it . mr. ashton . had not you search'd me then , and taken papers from me ? capt. billop . no , mr. ashton ; for , upon the oath that i have taken , i took no papers that i remember , but the papers that i took out of my lord preston's pocket , and the packet that i took out of your bosom ; for my lord nottingham ask'd me , if that packet was all the letters i took ? i told him , no ; and shew'd him the papers i took out of my lord preston's pocket , and they prov'd to be of no consequence , and my lord nottingham gave them me again , and i carried them to my lord preston . mr. ashton . did not i go down into the hole for my hat ? capt. billop . i believe you might . mr. ashton . and was it not after that , that you took the papers out of my breast ? capt. billop . yes , i believe it was . mr. ashton . where is your man that call'd to you , and said , i put something in my breast ? capt. billop . here he is , by me , if you would ask him any thing . mr. ashton . you say , i spoke to you about disposing of these papers : pray , from the time that we came into your boat , before we came on board the george man of war , did i speak to you ? capt. billop . yes , of the packet you did : you said , what good would it do me to injure so many gentlemen ? mr. ashton . there pass'd no more than general discourse before we came on board ? capt. billop . yes , mr. ashton ; i 'll tell you another thing you put me in mind of . when you saw that , though you were so eager with me , nothing would prevail , you said , i know captain billop , and have known him many years ; and nothing will prevail on him , if he have no mind to it : and i know , if he will serve us , he will serve us generously , and like a gentleman . sir wi. williams . speak that again . capt. billop . he said , i know captain billop ; if he will serve us , he will do it generously , and like a gentleman . l. c. j. holt. who said so ? capt. billop . mr. ashton . mr. ashton . did i speak to you to dispose of the papers after we came from on board the ship ? i suppose you remember it was cold , and the tilt was call'd for , to be lay'd over us , and i fell asleep ; and you know i never wak'd , nor spoke , till i came to london-bridge . capt. billop . yes , yes ; we had the tilt over us . l. c. j. holt. pray speak your questions out , that we may hear 'em , mr. ashton . capt. billop . mr. ashton did go to sleep a great while , but he had many times urg'd me , and spoke to me to throw the papers over-board . l. c. j. holt. who was it that told you , every dog had his day ? capt. billop . that was ellyot . sir wi. williams . was there any discourse about turning of the tide ? capt. billop . mr. ellyot said , you have now an opportunity to make your own fortune , and you may be as great , and as rich as you please ; for 't is impossible the tide can run long this way . mr. serj. tremain . did mr. ashton say any thing about going along with them ? capt. billop . yes : you may remember , mr. ashton , that you said , come , go along with us ; you may do as well there , or better than you do here . mr. s. tremain . did he tell you , where you were to go with ' em ? capt. billop . no , sir ; nor i did not ask him the question . mr. ashton . pray , when did you give my lord nottingham these papers ? capt. billop . do you mean that bundle that i took out of your bosom ? mr. ashton . yes . capt. billop . as soon as ever i follow'd my lord nottingham into his room , i pull'd 'em out , and gave 'em him . mr. ashton . did not you go out of my lord nottingham's room , and give my lord nottingham some loose papers ? capt. billop . yes . mr. ashton . after this , was not my lord preston call'd in to be examin'd ? capt. billop . yes . mr. ashton . how long was my lord preston in the room , while you were out ? capt. billop . i can't tell very well . mr. ashton . pray , sir , answer that question . capt. billop . i believe it might be half a quarter of an hour : i do not think it was much more . mr. ashton . i believe you must remember some sort of discourse that was betwixt you and captain ellyot , even to a quarrel almost . and did you not speak to my lord nottingham's servants , to fetch your hat out of my lord nottingham's room . capt. billop . yes , i do remember that . mr. ashton . this must be a good considerable time : it was all the time that my lord preston was within with my lord nottingham , that you were out ? capt. billop . yes , it was . mr. ashton . and all that while was not the bundle of papers out of your sight ? capt. billop . it lay upon the table . mr. ashton . pray , answer my question : was it not out of your sight ? capt. billop . yes , it was . l. c. j. holt. yes , yes ; it must be , for he was out of the room . mr. s. tremain . when you came into the room , did you find the papers in the same condition ? capt. billop . yes , they were unopen'd , except that my lord had taken off the lead , and a little paper fell loose from the rest . mr. ashton . pray , take notice of that , gentlemen . l. c. j. holt. but pray don't infer more from thence than it will bear . mr. ashton . it seems some of the papers were taken out . l. c. j. holt. he does not say any such thing , that some of the papers were taken out . mr. ashton . he says , something was cut , and some papers fell out . c. billop . there was a little paper or two tyed to the great pacquet . l. c. j. holt. what became of them ? c. billop . they we cut loose , but not opened . mr. ashton . how can you tell they were not opened ? c. billop . because i stood by when they were cut . mr. ashton . but how can you tell that ; for you see the little papers taken , and they were loose from the others ? c. billop . they were taken from the great bundle before i went out . mr. ashton . had not my lord opened those papers before you came in ? c. billop . no. mr. ashton . how can you tell that ? c. billop . i tell you , as near as i can judge , they lay in the same posture that i left them in . mr. ashton . was the pacquet sealed when you took it ? c. billop . no ; but it was tyed . there were several letters in it that were sealed ; it was tyed up very hard . mr. ashton . i do not question but my lord nottingham will do me the justice to say how long he was in the room . l. c. j. holt. you must not comment , nor make your observations till your proper time . jury-man . pray , my lord , i desire he may be asked who was with my lord nottingham when my lord preston was there . c. billop . there was no body else then . jury-man . then 't is not probable they were altered before capt. billop came in . mr. ashton . but i hope probabilities shall not be evidence to condemn any man. jury-man . those two little papers you speak of , were they severed from the pacquet ? c. billop . i cannot tell whether they were or no ; they seemed loose upon untying the bundle . l. c. j. holt. were they cut in your presence ? c. billop . indeed , my lord , i cannot say that i did see them cut . mr. ashton . pray take notice of that , gentlemen of the jury . l. c. j. holt. they are twelve honest gentlemen , they will do you right . l. c. j. pollexfen . observe what the witness says ; he says , that he does not remember that they were cut in his presence , but he does not say , they were not . mr. ashton . if he does not swear they were , it is reasonable to conclude they were not cut in his presence . l. c. j. holt. he says , the great pacquet was not opened , the two little papers were loose from the rest of the great bundle . c. billop . there might be two or three of them , less or more , i cannot tell . mr. s. thompson . you will be further satisfied in this matter upon my lord nottingham's evidence , i suppose . mr. s. tremain . we have done with capt. billop for the present . pray call johnson . ( who was sworn . ) sir w. williams . were you at the taking of that gentleman , and the others in the smack ? johnson . yes , i was . sir w. will. then pray give an account of the matter how it was . johnson . we went down in a pleasure boat and went to the tower , went set through bridge against tyde , my lord of danby was with us ; and when we came to tower wharf there they went to the tower for arms , and we stayed till ebbing water , and rowed to graves-end ; and when we came to graves-end we went on board several ships , and i thought we were going a pressing ; and we stayed at graves-end the time of the writing of a letter , and then we went both into the boat again , and rowed after a smack that had gained of us , but that not being the smack we turned back again , and then it was high water : and when we came to the upper end of the hope we saw several smacks coming , and there was a fisher-man on board that said , that was the smack the captain enquired after , that was coming down there ; and when they came on board the captain said there were two or three brave men , and he hoped he could spare one of them ; and the master said he hoped he would take none of them because they had a protection , which he shewed to the captain . then the captain went in and bid me take some small arms and go on board with him , and told the master he must look a little further ; and the boards were taken up , and i saw a great piece of roast beef , and under that my lord preston , and mr. ellyot , and this gentleman mr. ashton : my lord preston came up first , and mr. ellyot next to him ; and i see this gentleman take up something and put it into his bosom , and i told the captain of it , and he asked him what it was , and he said nothing but his handkerchief , and plucked out the handkerchief ; but the captain put his hand into the bosom and pulled out something else . l. c. j. holt. what was it ? johnson . it was a parcel of papers tied up with a piece of lead tied to it , for i came up close after him and see him take it up . sir w. will. what else were there found with the papers , was not there some seals ? johnson . that was afterwards ; but when the captain asked him what he had gotten in his bosom , he pulled out his handkerchief , and said nothing but his handkerchief ; but the captain took the other papers out of his bosom and so i went down and there were the two seals , and i took them up ; and when i came up ellyot had a pair of black whiskers on , and he borrowed a pair of scissers and cut them off , and said he should remember me again if ever he lived , he should know me by my tooth being out . and coming up into long-reach , ellyot was a cold , and got to the oar and rowed , and said you row as if you were rowing to prison ; and he wished that a thunder bolt might drop into the boat , and that london-bridge might drop down upon his head. and when we came up to whitehall i stood a guard over them . jury-man . did you see captain billop take the pacquet of letters from that gentleman's breast ? johnson . yes , i did . jury-man . did you belong to captain billop ? johnson . yes , i was one of the boats crew . mr. ashton . had not i been up and searched before ? johnson . yes , i think you had been up before . mr. ashton . and then you saw me take up the pacquet off from the ballast ? johnson . yes , i saw you take it out of the ballast and put it into your bosom . mr. ashton . gentlemen , i hope , you will be pleased to take notice of that . l. c. j. holt. no doubt of it they will. mr. ashton . did not that bundle of papers that was taken out of my breast , did not they lie near to the place where the seals lay ? johnson . yes , it lay just by them . mr. s. thompson . pray set up capt. billop again . ( which was done . ) when you brought these papers to whitehall , capt. billop , who did you deliver them to ? c. billop . to my lord nottingham . mr. s. thompson . after he received them , what did he with them ? c. billop . after he had examined all these gentlemen he went to opening of the papers , and he desired me to stay in the room till they were opened , which i did ; and my lord upon looking on some of the papers said , if this pacquet had gone we had quickly been visited by the french. with that i took them up , and lookt into them . my lord said , i might look into as many of the papers as i pleased ; but i was very uneasy and full of pain , and had more mind to be gone , and be a bed , than a looking into papers ; but several of the papers i did look into , and several i put my mark upon ; and the next at the council , what of them i did know i did put my mark upon . mr. s. thompson . after my lord nottingham had perused them , what did he do with them ? c. billop . my lord put them up in a cover , and tyed them with a piece of twine , and put his seal upon them , and gave them me , and desired me to carry them to my lord president ; which i immediately did , and without stopping carried them to my lord president . mr. ashton . when was this , sir ? was it that very night that we were brought to whitehall ? c. billop . yes . mr. s. tremain . then we must desire my lord nottingham to be sworn . the earl of nottingham sworn . mr. s. thompson . will your lordship please to give the court an account how these papers came to your lordship , and how your lordship disposed of them . e. of nott. capt. billop came to my office — mr. ashton . i humbly desire your lordship would please to speak louder ; for i cannot hear your lordship , and i fear the jury cannot . e. of nott. i speak as loud as ever i can , but i have a great cold. l. c. j. holt. you may hear my lord very well , if the court be but silent . l. nott. capt. billop brought to me a pacquet tyed about with a packthread , to which there was a piece of a leaden pipe fixed , in which pacquet there was stuck in another paper , i think there was but that one besides the cover , but what it was particularly i do not remember , this pacquet was laid upon the table while he was by ; and i called in my lord preston , not being willing to make him stay , and after i had some discourse with my lord to examine him what account he could give of these proceedings ; then i called in your self mr. ashton , and capt. billop was by also , but the pacquet so tyed with the packthread i cut open in billop's presence with a pair of scissers ; the same papers that were in that pacquet , together with the little paper that was stuck in , i tyed up , i am sure i sealed them in a sheet of paper , and gave them back again to capt. billop to carry them to my lord president . sir w. will. capt. billop , you have already declared that all you received from my lord notingham you carried to my lord president . c. billop . all the papers that i received from my lord nottingham , just as i received them sealed with my lord's seal , i went directly to my lord presidents , and gave them him . sir w. will. pray , my lord , did your lordship deliver to capt. billop all the papers that you received from him ? e. of nott. my lord all the papers that capt. billop brought to me that were in the pacquet ( for he brought some letters that he took out of my lord preston's pocket that were of no consequence ) but all the papers that were in the pacquet i delivered back to capt. billop sealed as i received from him , and no more and no others ; for the other letters they being from my lord preston's children , and not relating to the publick , i gave them to him to give my lord preston again . mr. ashton . my lord , i humbly beseech your lordship to tell the court how long my lord preston was with your lordship in the room . e. of nott. truly i am not able to tell you particularly how long it was , i believe it might be about a quarter of an hour , or scarce so much . jury-man . was there no body with your lordship , when capt. billop was out , but only my lord preston ? e. of nott. no , not that i know of . mr. ashton . my lord , i have one favour more to beg of your lordship , i humbly pray your lordship will please to tell the court and jury what answer i gave to your lordship , when you asked me how i came by those papers . e. of nott. as near as i remember the account that you gave of them was , that you went down again after you were come up , as you said , to fetch your hat ; and that when you did go down into the little hole to fetch your hat you brought up these papers with you . mr. ashton . my lord , this was the account i did give . now this very well corresponds with that man's evidence , that says he saw me take up the papers and put them into my breast . l. c. j. holt. he does say so , and this does all very well agree . mr. soll. gen. now we desire my lord president would please to be sworn . the lord president sworn . mr. s. thompson . pray , my lord , will your lordship please to declare to the court what papers capt. billop brought to your lordship , and how your lordship disposed of them . l. pres . capt. billop did bring me a pacquet tied with a packthread , and that was sealed with my lord nottingham's seal , i knew it to be his seal ; and he told me that my lord nottingham commanded him to bring that pacquet to me . i opened the pacquet , and perused all the papers ; it was very late and i locked them up till morning , and i then carried those very papers to the king , and in the king's closet , at kensington , the king read some of them , and in my sight , for i never parted from the king , but was by all the while : the king put up all the papers again , and commanded me to call a cabinet council , and to let them be delivered there to the council ; accordingly i did deliver them paper by paper , and they were all marked there by my lord sydney , who is here present ; and they were then delivered into the hands of my lord sydney . l. c. j. pollex . will you please to ask my lord any questions , mr. ashton ? mr. ashton . my lord , if your lordship will be pleased to pardon me , i would ask your lordship , did any of your lordships servants , or family read any of these letters ? l. pres . no , not one . mr. ashton . were they locked up where any of your lordships secretaries , or servants could come to them ? l. pres . no , i lockt them up in a strong box in my closet . mr. ashton . my lord , i only desire this favour further of your lordship . your lordship at the committee of the council was pleased to ask me , how i came by those papers ; i presume you may remember , and i pray your lordship to declare , what answer i gave . l. pres . truly , mr. ashton , to tell you the truth , i do not remember the particulars , i remember you denied every thing ; i can only say that in the general , but what you said in particular i cannot remember . l. c. j. pollex . do you put my lord in mind , if you can ; see whether he does remember it . mr. ashton . my lord , i only desire to ask my lord president , whether i did not tell him i went down after i had been fearcht into the hold , and there i see the papers lye , and brought them up , and put them into my breast ; and they were no sooner in my hands but capt. billop had them in his ; for the man called and said , this gentleman has something in his breast , and the captain put in his hand and pulled it out . l. pres . truly , mr. ashton , i do not remember the words that you used , but remember you said something to which i made answer , what makes it matter , they were found upon you , and taken out of your bosom , do you look to it how you came by them . i do not remember what you said , for i cannot remember particular words , but i believe you might say some such thing . mr. soll. gen. then , pray my lord sydney , will you be pleased to be sworn . the lord sydney sworn . mr. s. thompson . will your lordship be pleased to declare what papers you received from my lord president ? l. syd . at the cabinet council my l. president delivered a pacquet of papers , i received them every one there , and markt them , and put them in my pocket . mr. s. trem. did your lordship deliver them to any person afterwards ? l. syd . the next day , or the day after , i gave them to mr. bridgman to copy out , and he delivered them back to me again . mr. soll. gen. pray , my lord , give me leave to ask this question — mr. s. thomps . your lordship had markt them before you delivered them to mr. bridgman to copy ? l. syd . yes , i markt them at the council table , at my l. nottingham's office. mr. soll. gen. my lord , those papers that you markt were they the same papers that my lord president brought , and delivered in at the council ? l. syd . yes , the very same . jury-man . my lord , shall we have leave to ask my lord sydney a question ? l. c. j. holt. ay ; what is it ? jury-man . pray , my lord , did the pacquet come to you sealed ? that which was taken from this gentleman , was it sealed when it came to you ? mr. soll. gen. no , it had been opened by my lord nottingham , and my lord president . l. c. j. holt. sir , you are under a misapprehension of the matter . my lord nottingham after he had opened them sealed them up again , and delivered them to capt. billop ; capt. billop carried them sealed to my lord president , my lord president opens them and lays them up , they were never out of his possession , he carries them to the king , the king read some of them in his lordship's presence , he delivers them at the cabinet council to my lord sydney , and my lord sydney swears he read them there , markt them , and , when he had done , put them in his pocket . mr. soll. gen. my lord sydney , will your lordship be pleased to look upon these papers , and see if these be part of them . l. syd . i know them very well , i have read them ten times , i markt them at the council , and that is my mark. mr. soll. gen. pray , my lord , are those two papers that you have in your hand , two of those papers that my lord president delivered at the cabinet ? l. syd . yes , that they are . mr. soll. gen. my lord president , will you please to look upon them ? ( which his lordship did . ) l. pres . these are two of the same papers that capt. billop brought me . mr. soll. gen. now we shall desire to have them read , but give me leave to observe to you , that one of them is a copy of the other ; only in the one some words are written short , that are written out at length in the other . jury-man . pray , my lord , i desire to ask , are they of the same hand ? mr. soll. gen. no , they are of different hands . mr. s. thomps . pray , gentlemen of the jury , take notice , and observe these papers , for there is a great deal of matter of great moment in them ; for you cannot expect the king's council should repeat every thing that is in so many papers as we shall read ; it is impossible we should take notice of all . l. c. j. holt. or i either ; therefore pray , gentlemen , observe what is read , for i shall be able only just to state the evidence to you . mr. ashton . my lord , i hear them say one of those papers is a copy of the other ; i desire the original may be read , and not the copy . mr. s. thomps . who knows which is the original ? l. c. j. holt. look you , mr. ashton , we don't know which is the original , or which is the copy , they are both found together , they contain the same matter and the same words : it may be you can tell which is the original . mr. s. thomps . you may look upon them your self , and tell us which is the original if you please . mr. ashton . that is very well observed , sir. that is throwing water upon a dead mouse . then i desire both of them may be read . mr. soll. gen. indeed , mr. ashton , i think there is a particular reason why you should not desire to have the copy read , because least it should prove to be your own hand writing . mr. ashton . pray let both be read . cl. of peace reads . the result of a conference — mr. s. trem. pray attend , for this is the scheme of the whole work. cl. of peace reads . the result of a conference , &c. and the other was likewise read as before . l. c. j. pollex . pray let mr. ashton see that paper . the paper was handed to mr. ashton , being one of the papers before read . l. c. j. pollex . mr. ashton , look upon that same paper a little , satisfy your own mind a little whose hand that paper is in . look upon it well , i would have you be satisfied about it . look particularly upon the latter part of it . mr. ashton . my lord , i have lookt upon it , i have seen it all . l. c. j. pollex . come then give it me back again , and think of it a little in your own heart . mr. soll. gen. my lord sydney , pray , will your lordship look upon this paper . l. syd . this is one of the papers that was among the rest , delivered by my lord president at the cabinet . mr. soll. gen. pray shew it my lord president ; what says your lordship to it ? l. pres . this was one of the papers i gave my lord sydney , and was brought me in the pacquet by capt. billop . cl. of peace reads . that the king would return with a design of making an entire conquest of his people — mr. s. thomps . pray , my lord , give me leave , before it be read , to acquaint the jury what this is , that they may make the better observations upon it . this , gentlemen , is the heads of a declaration that was intended to be published when the french came ; and you will see what it is when it is read . pray observe it . cl. of peace reads . that the king will return , &c. as before . mr. s. trem. the next paper is an account which they had taken with them of the force of the kingdom , of the ships , particularly how many in number , what rates , what were in repair , what out of repair , and what a building , pray shew it my lord sydney . l. syd . this is another of the papers that i received from my lord president , and markt at the cabinet . mr. s. thomps . then shew it my lord president . l. pres . this is one of the papers that were in the pacquet , that capt. billop brought me . cl. of peace reads . mr. soll. gen. pray , my lord sydney , look upon these papers , and tell where your lordship had them . the papers was shewn both to the lord president and the lord sydney . l. c. j. holt. my lord president says he received them from capt. billop , and gave them to my lord sydney ; and my lord sydney says they are the same he received from my lord president . jury-man . are those the papers that have been read , my lord ? mr. j. eyres . no , but they both say the same as to those that have been read . jury-man . they pray , my lord , what are those papers that are going to be read ? mr. s. trem. these are two letters , gentlemen , that are written , giving an account how the affairs in england stood , with reference to the persons concerns that they are written to ; and there is a particular passage in one of them , how their young master prevailed in its interest , and got ground of his adversaries . if you observe them , you will easily understand what is meant by them . cl. of peace reads . this is directed for mr. redding , new-years eve , though the bearer of this , &c. as before . cl. of peace reads . this is directed for mrs. redding . as it is impossible for me to express , &c. as before . mr. soll. gen. now we desire my lord sydney and my lord president would look upon these papers . jury-man . my lord , i desire the former part of that last letter may be read again . which was done . l. syd . these i had from my lord president . l. pres . and i had them out of the pacquet that capt. billop brought me . mr. s. trem. if your lordship please i will open them to the jury . here are two letters , in one of them there is an account given that they were heartily sorry they were disappointed , and that they had not been here already , but hoped they will be here as fast as they can ; that the match was concluded , the settlement prepared , and no doubt but the daughters portion would be well secured , if they would come quickly . cl. of peace reads . dec. . . 't is directed for mrs. charlton . i must not let this bearer depart madam , &c. as before . mr. s. trem. that letter tells you that the daughters portion would be well secured ; this that we now produce will tell you , how it shall be raised . it says , the old tenants are weary of their master , and a little matter , if he would but appear in westminster-ball , would redeem the estate ; and the cause might be brought to a final hearing before the end of easter term , if they made haste , and it were well sollicited . cl. of peace reads . this is directed for mr. jackson . dec. . . the bearer hereof will give you , &c. as before . mr. soll. gen. we must desire my lord president and my lord sydney would be pleased to look upon these papers . l. pres . i received these from capt. billop in the pacquet , and gave it to my lord sydney . l. syd . these are some of the papers i had from my lord president . mr. s. trem. the letters we now produce to be read seem to be written by a man that was involved in a great trade , that had great projects in his head , and drawn many schemes in his own brain how to carry on the trade , he directs what sort of wares he would have sent , what was proper for their markets , that he had got many a new customer , and hoped they should not be disobliged ; that all must be sent before the first of march , at least before the tenth , or the whole summer profits would be lost . cl. of peace reads . dec. — l. c. j. holt. read the superscription first . cl. of peace . there is no subscription , my lord , at all . l. c. j. holt. well , read on . cl. of peac reads . dec. the interruption of the former correspondence had a very ill effect many ways , &c. as before . mr. s. trem. gentlemen , doubting that that letter might not be pressing enough , here is another to the same effect . cl. of peace reads . dec. . it is a presumption incident to those that are any ways upon the spot , &c. as before . mr. s. trem. one would imagine this letter were written by some person that used to talk cant , that he is so ready at it . mr. soll. gen. pray , my lord president , what says your lordship to these papers ? l. pres . these two letters were in the same bundle that capt. billop delivered to me , and i delivered them to my lord sydney . l. syd . these are some of the papers i had from my l. president , at the cabinet . mr. s. trem. that first of these papers is a letter wherein the party gives an account of his own condition here , and how he would venture to bring about what was desired . cl. of peace reads . dec. . was my condition more desperate and uneasie than it is , &c. as before . mr. s. trem. this little paper was inclosed in the other . cl. of peace reads . i beg , &c. as before . mr. s. trem. now shew this paper to my lord president , and my lord sydney . which was done . l. c. j. holt. my lord president , and my lord sydney , swears the same for this paper , as for the rest . mr. s. trem. this paper shews they were going about a deed that they did not desire to have known ; 't is a key how to explain their meaning . cl. of peace reads . for mrs. anne russel , &c. as before . then three other papers were shewn to and sworn by the lord president , and the lord sydney , to be part of the same papers . mr. s. trem. the papers that we now are going to read are these . gentlemen , here is a letter of recommendation in behalf of one mr. orbinet , which is a name they pretended of some person that was at paris , or to go there ; and 't is written by one mr. dellivere to his correspondent there , and he tells him , the bearer had something to disclose to him , and that he might have an entire confidence in him : but the letter of recommendation alone , without a sum of money , they reckoned would meet with a bad welcome in france , and therefore they take l. with them , and here are two bills to pay it . then mr. humphrey levermere was sworn to interpret them , being in french , ( which he did ) and read them as in the former tryal . jury-man . were these bills found in that pacquet ? mr. s. trem. yes , yes ; they are sworn to by both those lords . mr. soll. gen. now , pray my lord , will you please to look upon these papers . the lord president , and lord sydney both , testified , that those were part of the papers . mr. s. thomp . this next paper that we give in evidence is very short . it seems to be a table for the memory of the person that was to carry it ; they are short heads for the memory , consisting of a great many particulars ; you will make your observations upon them , and what judgment you think fit of them . mr. s. trem. my lord , i desire to take notice of these papers that we are now going to read ; you will observe these things in them , which are worth your remarking , gentlemen ; because these papers that we now read to you are of themselves sufficient to prove every article in the indictment : for these papers give an account of the ships , their number and force , the forts of the kingdom , how they are manned , how they may be surprized , where the french fleet should fight , where they should assault us , how they should hinder the dutch and english fleets from joyning , what number of soldiers would be sufficient , and what number of ships in newcastle to plague the city of london , how to manage this whole affair ; and it gives characters of the clergy of england , and particularly of the city of london , and says , they are the worst of men. mr. serj. thomson . no brother , 't is the worst of all the clergy . l. c. j. holt. come , read them . clerk of the peace reads . lady d. l. &c. ( as before . ) the jury desired to see the last papers , and had them delivered to them . mr. soll. gen. then we rest it here , to see what the prisoner will say to it . l. c. j. holt. mr. ashton , the kings council have done their evidence for the king , what have you to say for your self ? mr. ashton . my lord , i humbly desire to know of your lordship , whether all the letters are read , that were read at the tryal of my lord preston ? l. c. j. holt. what is that material to you , whether they be or not ? mr. ashton . my lord , i am informed that there were several letters , that particularly name my lord , implying him to be the bearer , and i desire those letters may be read . mr. serj. thompson . with all my heart , if you do desire it , it shall be read , we do not think it material . mr. ashton . i do desire it , it will be plain , i believe , from thence , that i could know nothing at all of this matter ; and if your lordship please , my lord , to observe it , three or four of these last papers , as mr. serj. tremain observed , were the ground-work of all this business , which refers to portsmouth and south-sea , and some other papers ; these i think , with submission , were proved to be the hand of another gentleman , and i desire it may be proved again to the jury , by which i think it will be plain , that they do not affect me . l. c. j. holt. look you , mr. ashton , it is not proved to be your hand , nor pretended to be so . mr. ashton . but positively proved to be another's hand , as i am informed , and 't is that which mr. serj. tremain observed was the ground-work for carrying on the whole design , i presume the witnesses are in court that proved it then , and i hope your lordship will be so kind as to let it be proved now ; they did prove it to be another persons hand upon a tryal not long ago . l. c. j. holt. if you have a mind to call any witnesses to prove the papers to be another's hand , you may call them . mr. ashton . i hope the king's witnesses are now in court that did prove them to be his hand writing , and they 'll prove it now i suppose . l. c. j. holt. if you have a mind you may call them , they have not a mind to produce them for the king. mr. ashton . i know not where they are my lord. pray mr. aaron smith , be you so kind as to call them . l. c. j. polexfen . you should have sent and subpena'd them to be here . mr. ashton . mr. warr is there , my lord , i desire he may be ask'd the question ; and i believe mr. blane is in the court , pray let him be ask ▪ d. l. c. j. holt. mr. warr , you are called by the prisoner , as a witness , to prove my lord preston's hand . mr. ashton , mr. warr , mr. townsend and mr. blane , i desire may be all ask'd . l. c. j. holt. mr. ashton , you have insisted upon it , that these papers were my lord preston's own writing . mr. ashton . my lord , i do insist upon it , to know whether they were not proved to be his hand . mr. serj. tremain . yes , they were so , 't is agreed . mr. serj. thompson . we do grant the king's witnesses proved , that they did believe them to be my lord preston's hand . l. c. j. holt. the king's council do admit , that these three last papers were not your hand , but they admit them to be my lord preston's hand , and 't is very well done of them to admit it ; so that now it is to be taken for granted , that those three last papers were my lord preston's hand . mr. ashton . then , my lord , i desire the substance of those papers may be the ●ore press'd upon the jury , because mr. serj. tremain observed that the 〈◊〉 design in the scheme of it lay in those papers , and they are not my 〈◊〉 , but another's ; and for what is in them , i know nothing , nor am concern'd . l. c. j. holt. what have you farther to say , sir ? mr. sol. gen. you mentioned another letter which you did desire should be read . mr. ashton . ah! two or three where my lord is named . mr. sol. gen. this is the letter i suppose you mean , the clerk shall read it . clerk of the peace reads . sir , i vow to you , i do not repine at having lost all for your sake , &c. ( as before ) mr. ashton . gentlemen , i hope you will observe , in that letter my lord is called the bearer ; and it tells that he brings papers with him , by which it is plain , that you cannot imagine i could know any thing of these papers . and gentlemen , it has not appeared by any evidence that has been given , that i knew any thing more , than that they were unfortunately found upon me : but with submission , i believe there is another letter , if i am inform'd right , wherein my lord is named , and called , my lord the bearer . mr. sol. gen. sir , i do assure you now , we have , to my observation , read every letter , and every paper , that was read on saturday . mr. ashton . mr. sollicitor , i am satisfied , for i am confident you would not affirm it if it were otherwise . l. c. j. polexfen . there is not any letter that says my lord the bearer , but my lord will give you an account , so and so ; the bearer will tell you these and these things ; will you have it read again ? you shall if you will. mr. ashton . i am unwilling to take up your lordships time , unless the jury desire to have it read again . jury-man . pray my lord , when that letter was read on saturday , how was it construed by the court ? how did they take it then ? l. c. j. holt. we did take it then , because my lord was mentioned , that he might possibly be the bearer . l. c. j. polexfen . it is very probable , and so it was understood then , that the lord mentioned in the letters was my lord preston , and so that my lord was the bearer that could give an account of the countesses condition ; and in the beginning of those papers that are of my lords hand , there is mentioned so much money for the lady d — which is my lady dorset i suppose , that is there meant , and that writ that letter . mr. ashton . no , my lady dorchester . l. c. j. polexfen . dorchester , i cry your mercy ; and it is probable the same reason is a reason still to make it believed that my lord preston was meant . mr. ashton . i think my lord chief justice was pleased to observe , as i have been informed , in giving his charge to the jury , that these papers , some of them naming my lord , must be meant of my lord preston , there being no other lord but he ; and he likewise gave another reason , says he , they lay by my lord's seals that were produced , and therefore it was plain , they could not be ashton's nor elliot's . l. c. j. holt. no not so , but my lord might be concern'd , because my lord's seals were there where the papers were found . mr. ashton . i am wrong inform'd if those were not the words my lord chief justice polexfen used . l. c. j. polexfen . what do you say were the words ? if you will repeat them , i 'll tell you as near as i can . mr. ashton . your lordship seem'd to infer , that my lord being nam'd , and the bearer in the same paper , that of consequence that must be my lord preston , and the papers must be his ; and you did give another reason for it , to enforce it , that the same man that saw me take them up , saw them lye by the seals , which were proved to be my lord preston's , from whence your lordship did say , it is plain they were my lord preston's , and that ashton or elliot could not be concerned in them . l. c. j. holt. you mistake that matter , sure there was not any such word said , for that evidence that tended to convict my lord preston , did by no means tend to acquit you ; the question then was , how far my lord preston was concerned ; my lord insisted upon it , says he , they were not taken from me but from mr. ashton ; there the question was not about you . mr. ashton . i humbly hope , my lord , you will forgive me for ins●●●●●● upon these matters , because i am for my life . l. c. j. polexfen . i would do you all the right i can , i assure you , mr. ashton ; but certainly there was no such thing said as you have mentioned . mr. ashton . my lord , i do not question but you will do me right , and i thought so , when i chose the jury out of the first that appeared , without challenging any . l. c. j. holt. well sir , pray go on to your defence . mr. ashton . my lord , my own defence will be very weak upon the whole , for i am very illiterate and unskill'd in the laws , but where i do fail of taking advantage , to observe what may be for my advantage , i hope your lordships will be so kind to me , as well as just ( i may call it ) to your selves , being upon your oaths , as to take notice of it . my lord in the first place — mr. serj. tremain . before mr. ashton proceeds , i would observe one word in a letter that has been read , which is one of these papers , it says , i say nothing of another gentleman that takes opportunity to see those parts , but he has shewn a zeal and sincerity in the affair equal to most . mr. serj. thompson . you hear , gentlemen , that there is notice taken of another person besides the bearer . mr. ashton . pray , my lord , is it any consequence that i must be the person that must be meant , or that i must know what the contents of the letters was ? there was another besides me , and so it is not plain who was meant , or if i were the man meant in this letter , it must not therefore follow that i must know of it . mr. serj. tremain . i did not mention it as a proof that you were the person meant , but only to shew that there was another person besides , my lord , taken notice of in them . l. c. j. holt. i must confess , i think mr. ashton observes right , it does not concern him , for as well as he was there , there was another , and it is uncertain whether it relates to him or the other , and so it signifies nothing at all ; that 's my mind . pray go on , mr. ashton mr. ashton . my lord , upon the whole i have this to observe , first as to my business of going into france , i must ingenuously own it , though i protest to you i never own'd it nor named it to the woman though she had sworn it , but yet i do now . my design was to go to france , and i had very great and good reason for it , i think , i had endeavonred all ways i could in the world to procure a pass to go to france , 't is very well known , i did business under lieutenant-general worden that died half a year ago , his accounts are now depending , and such accounts as may be prejudicial in some points to his family to whom i have always own'd and must a great obligation , and would be very glad upon all occasions to serve it , and all the branches of it ; this was not the whole nor the only design i had in going thither , but i had likewise some business of my own , i have a considerable sum of money owing me , if it be necessary to prove it , i can prove it by a bond from a person that is there ; a great sum it is , a very considerable one to me at least . and , my lord , i did think if i did not go my self it was impossible for me to do any thing in that affair , and that was the true and only reason of my design in going to france , having been out of hopes of getting any other convenience otherways ; this was not a design just now formed , as if i were just now upon some plot concerning the publick , but it has been my design ever since lieutenant-general worden died , and he upon his death-bed ingaged me to do it ; and i once went down , hoping to have gone from dover , and there i was apprehended and taken . and , my lord , i have used all manner of endeavours to go other ways , but they have always failed me , and this way i hoped would have taken : my lord , i do own i did hire the boat , and i did pay the money , but with submission , i think that is not any manner of treasonable act , my lord ; perhaps it is an ill act , but it does not amount in least to treason going to the king's enemies , suppose i went upon that account , that is no manner of treason in the world , carrying papers to the king's enemies , except it be proved that i was privy to them , and knew the contents of them , if lawyers inform me right , is not treason ; then what remains ? 't is true , i must own the papers were found upon me , and i believe there is no body that has heard the evidence that has been given , but must readily conclude that i found them in the place where the sea-man says i took them up ; and besides , my lord , there is not any manner of proof so much as aim'd at by the king's council in all their evidence , that i was privy to any one of these papers ; so that , my lord , i think there is very little proved upon me at all ; i had the misfortune to be taken in this company that was going where these papers were taken , it 's true , but they have not attempted to prove that i was privy to or knew any thing of them at all , nor that i was more concern'd than that they were taken in my stomach ; this is all i have to observe upon the whole ; as to the business of the indictment there are great and grevious aggravations in it , and such as i am not able to comprehend the meaning of , the words confound me ; and therefore i humbly desire your lordship to tell me upon what statute i am indicted . l. c. j. holt. i 'll tell you , mr. ashton , you are indicted upon the th of edward the third , for conspiring , compassing and imagining the death of the king and queen , and for that purpose going into france , and endeavouring to incite the french king to invade the kingdom , and telling him how he should do it , and letting him know in what state and condition the kingdom was , and how fit to be invaded . m. ashton . pray , my lord , is that at all proved upon me ? l. c. j. holt. that is the question that the jury are to judge of upon the evidence that has been given . mr. ashton . as to that of compassing the death of the king and queen , i am ignorant of dealings in law ; but i conceive there are several species of treason mentioned in that act of the of edward iii. and as to the imagining the death of the king , that 's only to be proved by some overt act : now i think nothing at all has been proved of any open act conducing to prove the imaginary or compassing the death of the king or queen , no manner of consultation or treasonable act at all , and therefore , my lord , i do not see that there is any great matter that is proved upon me , and i hope you are of that opinion too . l. c. j. holt. mr. ashton , that you may not go away with a mistake , any that design'd the deposition of the king and queen , and the invasion of the kingdom , which is proved by any overt act it is sufficient to prove that they compass and imagine the death of the king and queen . mr. ashton . i presume it may be so , i believe that may be the construction of the law. l. c. j. holt. and i make no question but those that you have consulted with have told you as much . mr. ashton . truly as to counsel my tryal has been as hard as ever man met withal . l. c. j. holt. why do you say so , mr. ashton ? the court has not been hard upon you . mr. ashton . my lord , i do not complain of the court , but as to the matter of time , i had notice by that gentleman , mr. bale , to prepare for my tryal , and that was on friday , and not before . l. c. j. polexfen . friday was sevenight , you mean , i suppose . mr. ashton . yes , i do mean friday was sevenight i was then a close prisoner , i had not the opportunity or liberty of seeing any christian soul , i spake to him then , and told him , mr. bale , this is very short notice ; pray be so kind as to move my lord that i may have council ; truly he was civil enough , and said , he would do all he could ; says he , will you give me the names of your council ? so i gave him the names of four , and of a sollicitor ; but i never heard more of him in the matter : i did with all my industry and skill give my friends notice , but i was under great difficulty , for i had not the liberty of pen , ink , nor paper , nor a man to send upon a message on saturday ; i gave my friends notice of it , upon sunday , which was no very good day for business , they apply'd themselves to my lord sidney , whose favour and kindness i shall always own as long as i live , he gave me all the dispatch possible , and got me an order to see my wife that day , though it was sunday ; the next day i made application to have my council come to me , that was monday , he with the same readiness procured that , but it was tuesday in the afternoon before i could see any living soul but my wife and some of the council that i desired would not readily come to me , and it was wednesday before i did see any body of them , and so i had but wednesday and thursday to consult with them in . on friday i was brought here , and i endeavour'd to procure a copy of the pannel , that i might inform my self of the characters of the men that were to be my jury ; and my lord , i would desire you to give me leave to clear one point , which through inadvertency slipt from me about the time that i desir'd to send to enquire about the jury . i did not mean as was apprehended , to send to them to take them off , but i only meant to enquire after their characters ; this was done upon friday ; i had not a copy of the pannel till last friday , when we were arraigned in court , it was two of the clock before the pannel was given us , it was between three and four when we came to newgate ; we were to come upon our tryal the next morning by eight of the clock ; so that before the copies could be transcribed for us , there were left but six hours for us to enquire into the morals of so many men , of whom some liv'd eight , some ten , some fifteen miles out of town ; for my part i was not able to enquire after any one , and that your lordship may think by my taking the first twelve that appeared , and believing my self innocent of this matter , i resolved to put my self upon my tryal by any twelve indifferent english-men ; i only beg if i have omitted any thing in reference to my self , or misbehaved my self , with respect to the bench , that you would please to set me right , and consider that i stand here for my life ; and to grant me your pardon for any thing wherein i have offended your lordships , to whom , and to the jury , i refer my cause ; only i beg leave to call two or three witnesses , i know it hath been allowed before in such cases , to give some short account of my life and conversation , because it hath been reflected upon me that i was a papist , because i designed to go into france ; but i believe there is not any man , whose devotion to the protestant religion established by law , is greater than mine hath been , or to whom that religion is dearer than to my self . l. c. j. holt. you are not accused of any such thing , no body pretends you are a papist , but call whom you will. mr. ashton . pray call dr. bursh , dr. lake , dr. fitz-williams and dr. davenant . there is dr. fitz-williams ; i beg the favour of you dr. fitz-williams to give the court an account of your acquaintance with me , and particularly about my religion . dr. fitz-williams . will your lordship give me leave , my lord ? l. c. j. holt. ah! come , what do you know of mr. ashton ? dr. fitz-williams . i suppose , my lord , that he calls me in as a witness to his religion , and to his morality , i think so ; with my lord's permission i will give the truest testimony i can : i have known him some time , he used to be frequently at the service of the church in the protestant part of the family , at st. james's , where i was chaplain ; during the time i was there , i observed him to be a frequent receiver of the holy communion ; and as far as i could observe , lived answerable to what he professed to be , a sincere member of the church of england , and a serious christian for his sincerity and zeal for the protestant religion : i can give this instance , he had an aunt that had a relation to that family , one mrs. du-pee , whom he thought did warp a little towards popery , and he desired me , about five years ago , to have recourse to her , and desired to know if she were dissatisfied with any point of religion in the church of england , in communion with which she lived visibly , and i would do my endeavour to satisfie her , as i do not doubt but i could . she was desirous to know who was the person that sent me : i told her i came of my own head in the greatest part ; but i suppress'd the interposition of mr. ashton for several reasons , and told her , i had great suspition of her inclining the other way ; and i had great reason for it , because of her husband , who was a papist , and the great resort of popish priests to their lodgings . she told me then , she was satisfied in every thing , and if she had any dissatisfaction she would send for me and give me an account . some months after i came to st. james's to wait , and observing her to be absent more than usually before , from prayers in the chappel , i went to her , and asked her the reason : she told me , it was because she was making some linnen for her master king james , which was to be made in haste : but she then design'd to go for flanders quickly ; and mr. ashton about that time , or two or three days after , told me his aunt was gone to france , and spoke it with very great concern , and that he believed , under the pretence of calling over her younger son , she was gone to declare her self a papist , and he was very much troubled at it . this i know for his zeal for the protestant religion . l. c. j. holt. when was this , doctor ? dr. fitz-williams . this was , my lord , about five years ago . mr. ashton . that is , as to the business of my aunt i suppose , i know not how he comes to mention it , but as to my life and morals , you can give a later account . dr. fitz-williams . my lord , i have administred the sacrament to him . l. c. j. holt. what questions do you farther ask him , mr. ashton ? or can you say any more , doctor ? dr. fitz-williams . no , my lord , i can say no more , but that he received the sacrament about half a year ago . mr. serj. thompson . we have not objected any thing , as to his religion , at all . mr. ashton . but i know it has been a reflection that has gone about of me , that i am a papist , therefore i beg leave to prove my religion and conversation . l. c. j. holt. nay , call whom you will , you shall not be hindered , take what course you please . mr. serj. tremain . pray , doctor , you say he has received the sacrament lately ; when was that , and where ? dr. fitz-williams . it was at ely chappel within this six or seven months . l. c. j. polexfen . have you been lately conversant with him ? dr. fitz-williams . truly , my lord , i have not been very lately . l. c. j. polexfen . pray what have you heard him say , concerning his affection to king william and queen mary ? dr. fitz-williams . i do not remember any thing at all of that . l. c. j. polexfen . have you heard him say any thing to the contrary ? dr. fitz-williams . no , i cannot remember that . mr. serj. tremain . what have you heard him say about his affection to k. james ? l. c. j. holt. do not ask him that , there may be a snare in that question . jury-m . you say , doctor , that he received the sacrament six months ago in ely chappel ; did you deliver the sacrament to him there ? dr. fitz-williams . no , i did not . jury-m . pray , doctor , were the prayers that were used at that time altered ▪ as they are now in the common-prayer-book ? dr. fitz-williams . i cannot say they were . l. c. j. polexfen . did you ever see him drink king james's health ? dr. fitz-williams . i do not use to drink healths , i came here only to do an office of justice and kindness to mr. ashton , to testifie about his religion and conversation . mr. serj. tremain . but answer the question , did you ever see him drink k. james's health ? dr. fitz-williams . i cannot remember i ever did . jury-m . was king william and queen mary pray'd for in those prayers ? dr. fitz-williams . i cannot say they were . mr. just . eyres . but the jury-m . question was , whether king william and queen mary were pray'd for ? and whether the prayers were as they are now altered ? dr. fitz-williams . my lord , i say i don't remember there was any names mentioned , as the prayers are now altered . mr. serj. tremain . that 's very well . dr. fitz-williams . i did neither read the prayers , sir , nor administer the communion at that time . l. c. j. polexfen . but you were not at the prayers as they are now altered , i perceive . dr. fitz-williams . yes , i have , several times . mr. serj. thompson . not with that gentleman , mr. ashton . dr. fitz-williams . but i have been an hundred times at the prayers as they are now altered . mr. ashton . i desire dr. lake , who is there upon the bench , that he may be asked what he knows of me . mr. ser. tremain . but i have one question to ask of dr. fitz-williams before he goes . l. c. j. holt. what will you ask him ? mr. serj. tremain . i would ask you , sir , one question , have you taken the oaths to this king and queen ? dr. fitz-williams . no , i have not , sir , that 's my unhappiness , but i know how to submit and live peaceably under them . mr. ashton . but there is one dr. lake that has taken them , he 'll give you an account what he knows of me . dr. fitz-williams . if any one can say i have done or acted any thing against the government , i will readily submit to be punished for it . l. c. j. holt. well , dr. lake , what say you ? dr. lake . my lord , i have known mr. ashton above these sixteen years , we liv'd together in the same family several of them ; i always observed him to be a person of exemplary piety and singular devotion ; he duly came to the prayers of the church twice a day , and to the sacrament once a month ; he has taken occasion , that i know several times , both at st. james's and at edinburgh , to testifie his zeal against popery ; and i am apt to think , that he has suffered sometimes for doing so . mr. ashton . dr. bursh , pray , as to my religion , i beg you to give an account what you know of me , particularly something you may remember of me , of my perhaps over-heat against popery . dr. bursh . my lord , i have long known mr. ashton , the prisoner at the bar , and till within these two years frequently conversed with him ; and while i did so , i believed him a good protestant , and i have so many instances of it , and particularly before some upon whom his fortune depended ; but as to any thing of late , i can say nothing , because our conversation has ceased . mr. serj. thompson . dr. bursh , have you known any thing of mr. ashton's conversation for two years past ? dr. bursh . no , sir. l. c. j. holt. have you any thing more , mr. ashton ? mr. ashton . no , my lord , i have nothing more , unless your lordship desire any thing more of this nature . l. c. j. holt. call whom you will. mr. ashton . here is one mr. tomlinson . l. c. j. holt. come , what say you , sir ? mr. tomlinson . my lord , i waited upon major gen. worden when he was sick , and there read the prayers of the church , and mr. ashton was a constant attender upon the publick prayers at the visitation of the sick , and was very devout ; that 's all i can say . l. c. j. holt. when was this ? mr. tomlinson . it was in the sickness of major gen. worden . l. c. j. holt. how long ago was that ? mr. tomlinson . it was about half a year ago . l. c. j. polexfen . were those prayers as they are altered now or not ? mr. tomlinson . it was only the visitation of the sick , and the collect for the morning and collect for the evening , because the general 's sickness was such , that he could not bear long prayers . l. c. j. holt. sir , have you been acquainted with the prisoner any time ? mr. tomlinson . about eight months . l. c. j. holt. have you any more witnesses , mr. ashton ? mr. ashton . no , my lord. l. c. j. holt. then i would have you to answer me this one thing ; why were you so desirous , and used such importunity , that the papers should be thrown over board . mr. ashton . my lord , that is a point i ought to have spoke to , to clear my self . l. c. j. holt. it seems material , and i would not have it forgot , if you can answer it . mr. ashton . i humbly thank your lordship , and whatsoe'er my fate is , i cannot but own i have had a fair tryal for my life , and i thank your lordship for putting me in mind . l. c. j. holt. and take this other thing with it , why did you desire captain billop to go along with you where you were going ? mr. ashton . he has sworn it , my lord , that i did so , but as i hope for salvation , if i were to dye immediately , i do not know that i spoke to him of any such thing ; how was it possible that i should prevail with him ? or how was it likely that i should force him to go along with us , when he had about twelve or fourteen men with him armed , and we unarm'd ? l. c. j. holt. nay , it was not forcing , it was but perswading him to go . mr. ashton . my lord , i do not know any thing of it , i 'll assure you ; but as for endeavouring to perswade him to throw the packet over-board , i must own i did endeavour to perswade him to it ; and i do presume there is no body in court , that had been engaged with a person so unfortunate , that would not have done the same thing for any common friend , not knowing what the contents of those papers were , seeing them in that posture , especially when i saw some body else so near me , so uneasie and concern'd to have them seen . l. c. j. holt. then , mr. ashton , there 's another thing which you open'd , which i would have you prove ; you say you were to go into france upon the affairs of col. worden's family ; first you say col. worden had a great account to make up ; how will you make that out ? mr. ashton . my lord , if your lordship please , i will prove here in court , though it is a sort of surprize upon me ; that there is a great account depending , i believe i may appeal to mr. sollicitor himself , who knows that there is a petition in the house of commons , now depending , from the queens tradesmen and debtors , whom she owed l. she did assign the arrears of some growing rents for the satisfaction of this debt ; but the king and government have not thought fit to let it be applied to her use , or to the paying of those debts she assign'd it to . nay it has gone further , i can appeal to several persons , there is one man by chance in the court , that i believe does know that i promised and engaged , and actually have paid a great part of this debt ; for believing that the money was good upon the assignment , i have actually paid some of these men out of my own pocket , and perhaps more than became me to venture ; i think it may very well call my discretion into question . l. c. j. holt. who will you have called , mr. ashton ? mr. ashton . my lord , here is mr. spalding , l. c. j. holt. that the late queen does owe people mony , that i believe is true . mr. ashton . pray , mr. spalding , will you give the court an account , whether there is any money due from the queen to you . mr. spalding . my lords , and you gentlemen of the jury , i have a debt due to me from the late queen , as her coach-harness-maker , it is l. or something thereabouts , and mr. ashton has paid me part of this debt ; this i do own . mr. ser. tremain . pray , how long have you been acquainted with mr. ashton , sir ? mr. spalding . a dozen years , sir. mr. ser. tremain . have you had any intimacy with him ? mr. spalding . he and i have been very well acquainted . mr. serj. tremain . have you seen mr. ashton write at any time ? mr. spalding . yes i have . mr. serj. tremain . do you know his hand ? mr. spalding . yes , i think i do . l. c. j. polexfen . pray how came mr. ashton to pay you that part of your money ? mr. spalding . i press'd mr. ashton , and told him my necessities , and he did advance me this money . l. c. j. holt. how much did he advance ? mr. spalding . almost l. l. c. j. polexfen . when was it he paid it you ? mr. spalding . almost a year ago . l. c. j. holt. did he pay it out of his own pocket ? mr. spalding . i believe so . l. c. j. holt. i believe so ; or was it money that he had returned to him ? mr. spalding . i believe it was out of his own pocket , my lord. l. c. j. holt. why do you believe so ? mr. spalding . truly i believe it was out of his own pocket . l. c. j. polexfen . pray who was to repay him ? mr. spalding . about that very time we were petitioning the house of commons , that we might have our debts secured , and our money out of the arrears of rents due to the late queen , according to her assignment ; and we so far press'd the matter , that there was a clause inserted into the bill for the securing of our debt ; but upon the next day , or the day following , the parliament was prorogu'd . l. c. j. polexfen . which way did he expect to be repaid ? mr. spalding . i 'll tell you which way , i suppose , my lord. l. c. j. polexf . did he not tell you which way ? mr. spald . no , he never told me . l. c. j. polexfen . mr. ashton , did you never tell him how you should be repaid ? mr. ashton . my lord , i hoped to be repaid , and concluded i should , out of the arrears of rent in the tenants hands . l. c. j. holt. but you were very kind to pay money out of your own pocket upon such hopes . mr. serj. tremain . pray sir will you look upon that paper ; do you know the hand ? mr. spalding . no , sir , i do not . l. c. j. holt. i suppose he did compound with you . l. c. j. polexfen . this does shew an extraordinary kindness towards some sort of people . mr. ashton . if he discounted the interest to the time that we reckoned it would be paid , you know that prejudice would be to him , and not to me ; it may indeed prove a prejudice at last , if the debt be not paid , because the receipt is conditional ; if it be not allowed him , she shall discount to me again . l. c. j. polexfen . was there no money return'd over from the queen , k. jame's q — n that was ? mr. ashton . no my lord directly nor indirectly , not one penny , i believe they are not in a condition to return money . l. c. j. holt. well mr. ashton , what have you more ? mr. ashton , i have nothing more to say , i submit my cause to your lordship . l. c. j. polexf . look you mr. ashton , as to some things that you have mentioned : first , there 's no body questions but you are a protestant ; nay , as far as i discern , so they are all that are concern'd in this matter . the whole design shows that they are all so careful of the protestant religion , that they design to restore and establish it by the king of france ; so that it appears they are all protestants concern'd in this project . mr. ashton . pray , my lord , who is it that proposes that ? l. c. j. polexfen . the papers that were carrying to france , mr. ashton , you have heard them read . mr. ashton . i hope , my lord , that no doubtful insinuations or suggestions are to effect me ? mr. s. tremain . there is a gentleman that was called to by the prisoner , it may be , he knows his hand ; pray dr. fitz-williams look upon that paper , you have been acquainted with him many years , do you know his hand ? dr. f. williams . no sir , i do not know his hand , i never did see him write , i cannot say i ever received a letter from him . mr. ashton . i entirely submit my cause to your lordship and the jury . l. c. j. holt , then you have done mr. ashton ? mr. ashton , yes . mr. just . eyres . mr. ashton , because you cannot reply again upon my lord chief justice , after he has summed up the evidence . there 's another thing that i would put you in mind of , that you may give an answer to it . captain billop swears before the papers were found upon you ( and it seems to stick upon you ) when he was informed by the sea-men , that you had put something in your bosom , and he ask'd you what it was , you said nothing but your handkerchief ? now , if you knew not what was in the papers , how came you to deny you had any thing in your bosom ? mr. ashton , for the same reason that i would have endeavoured to have had them thrown over-board , out of kindness to the person with whom i hapned to be taken . l. c. j. polexfen . consider mr. ashton , what a strange many of things you run upon : first , you would have it believed , that you had a mind to go into france upon your own account . mr. ashton , i do own that . l. c. j. polexfen . next then , that you hired a vessel for you and ellyott . why would you have ellyott to go with you into france ? mr. ashton , i would not have him , he desired the favour of going . l. c. j. holt , who desired my lord preston to go , or did he desire to go with you ? mr. ashton , i had not seen mr. ellyott of three months before i went into the city to hire the boat. l. c. j. polexfen . why would you have my lord preston go with you ? mr. ashton , why would i have my lord preston go with me ? my lord , i hop'd to have got my passage free with a person of my lord's quality . l. c. j. holt , then you hired this vessel for my lord preston ? mr. ashton , no my lord. l. c. j. holt. was it my lord's money or your own that you paid ? mr. ashton , the money i paid , but how i should be repaid i cannot tell . l. c. j. holt , would you for your own convenience pay a hundred pounds for a boat to go to france , and yet hope to get your passage free by taking in my lord preston . mr. ashton , truly my lord , i cannot tell how it would have been , at the utmost , we could but have paid our share of it . l. c. j. holt , but you can tell me if you will , i ask you , how it was agreed among you ? mr. ashton , truly my lord , as i hope to be saved , i cannot tell . l. c. j. holt , then there is another thing , why did you desire one of the sea-men to say , that you were to go to flanders and not to france , and give him half a crown to say so ? mr. ashton , i presume your lordship knows that it is a fault , though it be not a treasonable fault to go into france . l. c. j. polexfen , but mr. ashton , truth is the thing that we are enquiring after ; and , that is the thing we would have prevail , and i hope shall in all cases : if you are not guilty , we hope it will prevail of your side , if you are guilty we hope it will prevail on the other side . now how likely is it that you should get into this same company by chance without a previous agreement ; you sent something from burdet's , a hamper and a trunk , and afterwards some other things went from rigby's , who is your father-in-law . mr. ashton , no , there was nothing at all carried from mr. rigby's . l. c. j. holt , yes , the leather bag , i believe , but another thing is this , that if it be possible you will do well to give an answer to , why did you enquire for a hiding place ? why did you ask the master of the ship whether there was a convenient place to hide in ? mr. ashton , as to that matter , my lord , i had heard of diverse people , that actually had passes , and were going to flanders , yet were stopp'd and brought to town again . i believe my lord nottingham has bail'd many a one , and your lordship knows it to be so , and has bailed many your self ; and therefore i had great reason upon that account to endeavour secrecy as much as i could . l. c. j. polexfen , mr. ashton , as i remember , you said your self you were once before a going over , and had the misfortune to be stopt , now to venture the second time without a pass , was something strange , why had you not gone and applied your self to the secretary for a pass ? mr. ashton , i had made all the application , i could to my lord nottingham , i cannot say in my own name , because i was sure before hand , i should be denied ; but i did by other hands endeavour to have got a pass to have gone into flanders , because it was of extraordinary consequence to me , as i tell your lordship , to go quickly . l. c. j. holt. if you had such an occasion to go , and had made it out to the secretary , and given security , you might have got it sure . l. c. j. pollexfen , one word further , why should you be so much concerned to have these papers thrown over-board ? mr. ashton , perfectly out of friendship , and had i been travelling with your lordship or any man else that had been so unfortunate , i would have done the same . l. c. j. pollexfen . well , have you any more to say for your self . mr. s. tremain . mr. ashton , call what witnesses you will , and speak as long as you will for your self , you shall be heard at large . mr. ashton , mr. serjeant , i thank you heartily , i have no more to say at present . l. c. j. holt. then the king's council desire to speak a word to the jury . mr. s. thompson . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury : it falls out to be my duty to sum up the evidence that has been given , i opened the cause at the beginning to you , and i opened it at large , and many particulars there were mentioned , and truly , i do not think we have failed in the proof of any one ; i know you are men of that observation , that i need not , nor shall take upon me to repeat all the particular circumstances , but as near as i can , i shall touch upon the heads of the evidence , and do it with as equal regard to my duty , and as much tenderness to the prisoner as any one can do . gentlemen , in the first place , you see what the indictment is for ; 't is for a high-treason of a very great nature , no less then the deposing the king and queen and subverting this government , and that by a french power and interest : if inviting an invasion , and giving an account of the weakness , and where the strength of the government lay , carrying papers to sollicite the french to come and to incite this nation into rebellion , that so they might depose this king , and set up the late king james again . if these be high-treason , as doubtless they are , then gentlemen , how far forth the prisoner at the bar had a share in it , i must refer to you from what we have proved . he is the man , it seems , that made the first step , for you may remember it was proved that he met this woman at burdet's in the city , for the hiring of this ship , and after two or three meetings more , they come to a conclusion , and guinies and six pence are deposited to make up a l. which was the price agreed upon , and that was actually paid by mr. ashton , this is sworn to be so . the next thing is , to what purpose this money was paid , and the ship hired , that is directly sworn , it was to carry mr. ashton and two or three more of his friends , not naming of them , and they were to go to france , one of the witnesses says , to any port in france , it was not directly declared to what part. this i say was the purpose , for which the money was paid , and the vessel hired , and this was to carry you mr. ashton and two or three more friends of his into france . it is true , mr. ellyott afterwards did meet mr. ashton , and i think was by at the bargain making , or at leastwise , when the money is paid , i will not be positive in that , because i would do him no wrong , he being to make his defence hereafter . mr. ashton , no , he was not by , i made the bargain my self . mr. s. thompson . then afterwards i remember one circumstance when he hired this ship , he was to hire a ship that had a place to hide in , and so he must needs know upon what design , i say , by that he must needs know , that there was a matter of great moment which he was to transact , for he was to have such a ship as he might hide in . after this ship was hired then they met in covent-garden , and there they take order with the man to go down with them to the stairs , where the water-men was called , indeed mr. ashton did part from them in the way , but presently after came to them at the stairs , and there came my lord preston and his man , who together with ellyott , that was there before , i think before , all embark't in the boat , and were carried to the ship , and made all the hast away they could for france . when they were there , and came to a place of danger , near a ship of war , there was care taken , according as they had enquired of the master of the ship before , that they should be hid , and hid they were . afterwards , when they were past that danger , when they came to the block-house at graves-end , there they thought fit to hide again , and did so , and there they concealed themselves , till they were surprized in that place by captain billop . my lord , after such time as captain billop had surprized them , he tells you , how he came down after this smack , you see what happened ; my lord preston first came up , and after he had search'd my lord preston , ellyott came up and he was searcht , and after mr. ashton was once come up , he went down to fetch his hat , and there was seen to take up this bundel of papers , and there the papers upon search were found in mr. ashton's breast . this being so found in his breast , you have heard what applications were made by this gentleman , to get these papers cast over-board , and what promises were made to the captain , and what likelihood there was of making his fortune , if he would go along with them or throw away the pacquet . you hear , gentlemen , that after they came to white-hall , one of the men swear , that this gentleman gave them money , that they should say , they were not hired for france ; but for flanders . these , gentlemen , are the several circumstances that do appear in this case , which shew the mighty care and dilligence that was used to get those papers suppressed that had been thus taken , or to get them again into their own custody , and that is a matter that shews how far this gentleman was concerned in this design , and taking all these things together , i think there can no greater evidence be given , that mr. ashton was in this contrivance , that he was concerned in the message , that he was to be sent , and all this business that was thus to be done , was as much guilty , as my lord preston , who now stands convicted for it . and the court will tell you , gentlemen , there are no accessorys , in treason , all are principals , though it be not actually proved , that this gentleman did not know all these papers what they were , yet in case he hired a ship for himself , and the lord , whose papers they were to go in , and take such notice of the papers as to take care of them , to suppress and conceal them , that is an evidence of his knowledge of the importance of them , and if so ; he will be equally guilty of the high-treason . l. c. j. holt. i doubt that . mr. s. thompson . my lord , i would not willingly press any thing further , then the nature of the thing will bear . l. c. j. holt. pray go on , brother , we are only talking among our selves . mr. s. thompson . the next thing is this , that is to be considered , that after such time as these papers came to be laid open , what is it that appear among them ? truly i shall not take upon me to repeat so much as the substance , much less the particulars of the several papers , but , 〈◊〉 must say , that there does appear to be a formed design of subverting the government , of deposing this king and queen , and of bringing us all into war and rebellion and blood-shed , all this under a pretence of establishing the protestant religion , and our legal government again ( tho i can see no means they had to depend upon for it ) but by a popish interest and a french power , and how far that is possible or probable to promote such an end by such means , i leave to your consideration . gentlemen , you have heard all the particular papers read , here was the resolution of a consult ▪ and conference , where this project was designed , here were heads of a declaration , that was to be framed to make the credulous believe , what mighty things should be done upon their new revolution , you see , what letters have been produced , and cannot but easily apprehend what is the import and meaning of them . i resolve , as i said , not to mention the particulars , but there is scarce one line among them , but what is treason , for it all tends to this purpose and design , to depose the king and alter the present government . now upon the whole matter , gentlemen what this gentleman has said , i confess to me seems strange , he said indeed at first , that he had no defence at all , or that which was very weak , and so it should seem , the truth was , for you see what his defence has been . he says , that he went into france , that he owns that he was going thither , but what was it to do , it was to settle some accounts with the family of collonel worden , and to receive a sum of money that was owing to him by a person there . gentlemen , if the design had so much innocency in it , certainly he might have had a pass , at least , there was no need of hiring a vessel at such an extravagant rate , there was no necessity of hiding in this secret manner , and no necessity of impossible suggestions , and prefering great rewards for the disposing of , and concealing , these papers . gentlemen , you will remember many particulars more , which have not slipt your observation , i shall not take upon me to repeat them , but leave them to your consideration . only this , i must say , that this is a treason of a very high nature , a treason to depose a king that has ventured all he had , 〈◊〉 his life has been in danger , and his blood has been spilt to establish this government , and our religion , and our laws , and yet it seems there are men that think this may be better done by a popish interest and french power , which i think no body of either wisdom or honesty can imagin , or will engage in , and therefore i leave it to your determination . l. c. j. holt. gentlemen of the jury , you understand , that mr. ashton is now tryed for high treason , it is mentioned in the indictment , to be for conspiring the death , and deposing of the king and queen , and for that purpose , he did endeavour to go into france , and to carry divers proposals in writing , and several memorials to shew how this kingdom might be invaded by the french. to prove this , the evidence that has been produced and given by the king's council has been long , and consists of two parts , witnesses , viva voce , that have told you how mr. ashton designed a voyage to france , and that he hired a ship for that purpose , and several papers were taken out of his bosom . in the first place , the witnesses tell you , that about the latter end of december last , mr. ashton , and mr. ellyott came to bardett's house , where they met with mrs. pratt , and burdett having before that spoken to her about a smack that she called the thomas and elizabeth . then there was a meeting appointed between her and mr. ashton at the wonder tavern , where they did treat and debate about the hire of it , afterwards they came back to burdett's again , and there the agreement was made betwixt the woman and mr. ashton , the prisoner at the bar , to have a hundred pounds . ninety three guinies and six pence was fetcht down by mr. ashton and told out , and deposited in the hands of mrs. burdett , then there was a six pence broken , and one part mrs. burdett had , and the other part mr. ashton had , and when either the master or mistress pratt should bring the part of the six pence that mr. ashton kept , to mrs. burdett , the hundred pounds was to be paid . and this agreement being made , 't is possitively sworn , that they did ask , whether there was a hiding place in the vessel ? an answer was made , there was one , and thereupon a note was given , that the master and mistress pratt should go to the seven-stars in covent-garden . upon wednesday night , they went there according to the direction , where meets ashton and ellyott , but before that , there was a boat hired at surrey-stairs to carry them down to the ship through bridge , over-against the tower , but the tide not serving till about ten a clock at night , they had agreed with a water man for half a crown to carry them , and he was to stay till the tide served . and when they went out from rigby's they parted , ellyott and the master went together , mr. ashton did not go with them , but came near about the same time to surrey-stairs , where they took water . being aboard , it was observed that all these gentlemen were very timerous , and seemed to be much frighted at the sight of any vessel , from which there was any apprehension of their being taken notice of ; and , therefore they went down under the quarter-hatches , which is a place very inconvenient for such persons , where none could stand or sit upright , but they were forced to lye upon the boards , or upon the balla●●● . it seems some intimation was given that some gentlemen had an intention to go into france to prosecute some treasonable design ; and captain billop being employed to pursue them , which he did in a pinnace , when he came near the vessel where they were , he called to the vessel , and under pretence of pressing sea-men , he went on board ; the master of the vessel said he had a protection from the admiralty ; so that there was no cause for them to fear pressing , nor indeed was there any for gentlemen to fear it , they being not lyable to be pressed . when the captain came near the ship , and declared his intent of coming on board , these gentlemen were gone under the quarter-hatches again , captain billop coming on board , and speaking about pressing of the men , and saying , there was a couple that would make good sea-men for the king ; the master shewed his protection , and then the captain said he would search further in the ship , and so he did , and then he pulls up the boards , and there he finds all these gentlemen , who were called up one after another , and searcht by the captain . gentlemen , there is one of the witnesses tells you , that when they were come up , he saw a pacquet that lay in this very place under the quarter-hatches , unto which was tyed a peice of lead , which mr. ashton takes up and puts in his bosom , with which the captain being acquainted . inquiry is made by him , what mr. ashton had there ? mr. ashton said it was his handkerchief , and nothing but that which he pulled out : but captain billop puts his hand in his bosom between his coat and his body , and takes out the pacquet , and carried these gentlemen on board the george frigat , where they stayed till the tyde served to bring them to white-hall . but before they came on board the frigat , mr. ashton was very importunate with him to throw this pacquet into the water ; when they were on board the george frigat , and in the cabin alone , they continue their importunity . now , say they , we have you here , and you are alone , pray will you throw this pacquet over-board ; and particularly , mr. ashton said it would do the captain 〈◊〉 good to injure so many gentlemen , and mr. ellyott would have per●●ded the captain to take the lead that was tyed to the pacquet , and ty●●●●o some letters that was taken out of my lord preston's pocket , and throw the pacquet over-board ; and then have informed the king and council , that those letters was the pacquet taken out of ashton's bosom : but the captain very honestly rejected all their motions of that kind . truly , gentlemen , my memory will not serve me to repeat all the particulars , but i question not your notes will bring them to your minds . mr. ellyott , it seems , was so mightily concerned at their being taken with these papers , that when they shot london-bridge , he wisht the bridge might have fallen upon them and knockt them on the head ; and , when they were got through , he wisht a thunder-bolt would fall down into the boat and sink them : that , indeed , was mr. ellyott , and not mr. ashton ; but mr. ashton was as much concerned about disposing of the pacquet as mr. ellyott . at white-hall this pacquet is opened , and you have several papers produced in evidence and read to you , you have heard what evidence has been given , that these are the very papers that were in the pacquet thus taken . first of all captain billop tells you he carried them to my lord nottingham , and that they lay there in his office ; he withdraw indeed while my lord nottingham examined my lord preston , but the pacquet was not opened in the interim , but there was only a paper stuck on the out-side that my lord had taken off before the captain returned into the room , and there the pacquet remained intire . he says , my lord nottingham opened the pacquet and put up all the papers that were in the pacquet in his presence into a cover again , and sealed them up with his seal . my lord nottingham says positively , he did put up all the papers that were in the pacquet again , all and no more , except the cover , and that he sealed up and delivered it to captain billop . captain billop says , he took these very papers from my lord nottingham , and as he received them , carried them without opening to my lord president . my lord president says ; he lockt them up unopened in a close cabinet in his closet-room , where no body comes ; there they were that night , and the next day he carried them intire to the king , and some of them were read by the king , in the presence of my lord president ; and , they were all taken away again by his lordship , no more nor no less ; and , my lord president brought them all to the cabinet-council , where they were read , and were delivered to my lord sidney . my lord sydney swears , these papers now produced , are the same papers he had from my lord president , and my lord president swears , that they are the same he received by billop from my lord nottingham , and my lord sydney markt them . so that there can remain no doubt of these being the same papers , that were contained in the pacquet , that was taken out of the bosom of mr. ashton . then , as to the matter of the papers , i think it is plain beyond all contradiction , that the import of them is treasonable : they shew a design of invading the kingdom by a foreign force , and of deposing the king and queen from the government , and of setting the late king upon the throne . it is agreed , as it is mentioned , at a conference , between several noblemen and gentlemen , that were of the whigg and tory party , as they call them , that the late king was to be restored , though by a french power . it was impossible for them to effect it , by going plainly to work , and saying in plain words , the french should invade us . it was to be done in this manner . the french king must pretend by all means to be our friend and a mediator , betwixt the late king and the people of england , and this was out of design , plainly to get a party of the kingdom , to joyn with them ; the most credulous and inconsiderate sort of people ; who when they should be seduced into a belief of the french king 's great kindness . it was not doubted but there would be a conjunction between them and the french forces , to restore the late king. and to procure such a perswasion in the people ; the french king was to shew himself kind to the english protestants , to appear and act another part than he had formerly done ; he was to permit them the exercise of the protestant religion , thereby to perswade many , that his persecution of his own subjects , the hugonots , was not out of any aversion to the protestant religion , but only to their antimonarchical and resisting principles . then an inconvenience is to be removed ; for they complain , that they are too full of bigottry at st. germains , and too bare-faced : for they make an open profession of popery , and speak truly what they do intend ; but say they , if they will have the design take effect , they must be more close and secret : for the folly and bigottry at st. germains , was a very great obstruction . therefore , they proposed , that some persons might be substituted as agents to correspond here , that understood the temper of the nation , and what would easiliest prevail with the people : and a model was to be framed at st. germains , the protestants are to be seemingly caressed , seven or nine to be of the late king's councel , that so we might believe , that he was ours in interest again , and that we have a relation to him . and if things were carried with such cunning and subtilty , they hoped to delude a great many people over into the interest of the late king ; but , if they went bare-faced , it would cause such great jealousies , that they must totally despair of success . yet they did not hope by these artifices to obtain so many friends here , as might have been sufficient to accomplish their design ; but they must have recourse to a forreign force , particularly a french force . for says one of the papers , vse foreigners to expel foreigners ; that is , use french foreigners to expel dutch foreigners , who are our allyes , and are falsly accused by them to have trampled upon the rights and liberties of the nation . there is one argument used to encourage people to assist the french in the invasion of their own country , which i cannot omit , namely , that as soon as the french , with a considerable expence of men and mony , had restored the protestant religion , the late king to the crown , and the people to their liberties , then he would withdraw all his forces , and reap no profit or advantage by his success . i must confess , this carries so little of persuasion in it , that it is ridiculous to think thereby to impose upon any number of men. but notwithstanding the weakness of their arguments , it is apparent they were in good earnest ; the papers give an account to the french , in what state and condition our forts were , portsmouth not man'd with above . and gosport how weakly fortifyed . it was a happy juncture between this and the first of march , when advice is given to make use of the opportunity . for men cannot give , but men may use opportunities , and something was to be done forthwith , and the goods must be got in readiness , particularly the linnen and the copper are mentioned , which are mysterious and dark expressions , and you may put a construction upon them as well as i ; for they are written in a style of trade , as if there were a correspondence between two tradesmen , and the linnen and the copper are ordered to be brought before the th . of march. but however obscure some of these expressions are , there are others that are more plain , that the french fleet must be out in april at farthest , and are to come before the conjunction between the english and the dutch , and jennings , strickland , or trevannian are to come from st. mallo's in one night , and to fight the english fleet in the chops of the channel , and not to come so high as beathy , where they came the last year . and there is an account given , in what condition and state our navy was , how many ships , what rates , how man'd , and who the officers ; and then as the french were to be in readiness to come in april , so they say our fleet was not to be out till june . gentlemen , there are a great many other particulars ; but these are enough , nay half of them were enough to make any man guilty of treason , that was concerned in them , or that had a hand in carrying or making use of them . besides , there are other letters which can import nothing , but the writer was of the late king's interest ; one directed to mr. redding , the other to mrs. redding ; and these were to go to france to let them know how zealous he was in his duty , and how the interest of the young master increased . the letters have these expressions : that though the family were decreased , yet our interest is increased , which is yours , and i speak in the plural number , because i speak the sentiments of my elder brother , and the rest of our relations , and desire them to believe they were zealous and cordial in their duty to mr. redding . now what interpretation you will make of this , i 'll leave to you . then there is another letter to mrs. charlton , and another to mr. jackson , and divers other things that have been read , and amongst the rest , hath been read the heads of a declaration at large , shewing what should be done , and what methods should be taken in order to the restoring the late king , and deposing this . and there is also mention made in a paper , how divers persons , who were to be pardoned , as particularly , all justices of the peace actually in commission are not to be excepted ; outlaws are to be pardoned ; chimney-money to be taken away ; and all that come in within one and twenty days are to be forgiven . so that it is plain , these letters import a design to depose the king and queen , and the kingdom to be invaded by foreigners , only a little to colour the matter , not to lose the pretence of a protestant interest altogether , there was to be or swedes to be made use of in the invasion . gentlemen , if there was a design of an invasion , be it by papists , or by protestants , if any act was done tending thereunto , it is high treason within the statute of e. . for purposing and intending to depose the king and queen , manifested by any overt-act , hath been always held to be high treason . this , gentlemen , is the sum and substance of the evidence that has been given at the bar. mr. ashton says for himself , it is true , saith he , my design was to go to france , i was so unfortunate as to have the papers taken about me . i did take them up ; but , says he , it is not at all proved that any one of the papers that are now produced are my hand : which is true : there is no such proof . the next thing is , that mr. ashton being ask'd , what occasion he had to go to france ? he says , he had formerly a relation to coll. worden , and did transact and had the management of his affairs , which were very great . coll. worden died half a year ago , and he enjoin'd him upon his death-bed to go into france about settling some accompts of his , and he was desired by the family of coll. worden so to do . this mr. ashton alledges ; but he has not proved it . 't is very strange , that if mr. ashton was to go to france to negotiate that affair for colonel worden's family , none of that family should be produced to prove , that coll. worden gave him such directions , or that the family desired him to go into france upon that account . then mr. ashton hath endeavoured to give another reason for his voyage into france ; he affirms , he had some affairs of his own with relation to the late queen , he was concerned for her , and she did owe monies here , and he paid several debts to tradesmen , particularly l . she owed to the coach harness maker ; and he having paid it , went over to reimburse himself : the tradesman was produced , and he says , mr. ashton did pay the mony a year ago ; but whether mr. ashton had effects from the late queen , or paid it out of his own pocket , does not appear ; mr. ashton says , he paid it out of his own pocket , which is very extraordinary , that he should be so kind to pay what he was not obliged to pay , and have no security to reimburse himself . so that , gentlemen , you had best consider whether there be any thing at all said or proved , that can justifie mr. ashton's going to france , or whether there be any good reason offered for it . then ashton has called witnesses to prove , that he was alwaies a protestant , though he did live in a popish family , where they did incourage papists and discountenance protestants ; for which he had the ill will of those he did depend upon . gentlemen , all that is agreed , and it is not a question in this case ; whether mr. ashton be a protestant or a papist ; but the question is , whether he be guilty of high treason , from which the being a protestant does not secure a man. but gentlemen , if mr. ashton had no knowledg upon what design the other persons were to go into france , though he had actually gone into france , it had been a crime in this juncture of affairs , yet not high treason ; but to go on into france , and carry a treasonable scheme of a design and project of an invasion , that is treason . now the question is , whether mr. ashton went with such a purpose or not , you are to consider ; i would not lead you into any strain of the evidence , but only state it how it stands . it is plain he was concerned all along in hiring the smack , and as the king's counsel observed to you , the price was something extraordinary , they were to pay l . for the voyage , to which was added some encouragement to the woman , that if she performed this voyage well , she might get l . before lady day , and the mony was paid by mr. ashton , and he was taken aboard the vessel . mr. ashton was much concerned to secure the papers , by taking them out of the place where they lay , upon the ballast under the quarter-harches , and after they were taken out of his bosom , he was very importunate , and so often with captain billop to throw them over-board . and why should he be so earnest and concerned , unless he very well knew and was acquainted with the contents of those papers . and he gave one of the seamen s , d . to say they were bound for flanders : unless it was a matter of great importance he went about , and that was not fit to be known ; why should he deny it , or labour to have it concealed ? an l . to be paid for this voyage , was , upon a joint account , as well for my lord preston as for ashton and elliot ; mr. ashton did pay the money , and he does not make it appear whose it was . gentlemen , it rests upon you to consider the evidence you have heard , whether it is sufficient to induce you to believe mr. ashton was going into france with these papers , to carry on the design of deposing the king and queen , and invading the kingdom : if you are not satisfied in your consciences that he i● 〈◊〉 then ; find him not guilty . on the other side , if you are satisfied that he is guilty , i do not question but you will find him so . l. c. j. pollixfen . look you , gentlemen of the jury , my lord has rightly repeated and stated the evidence to you , i shall only say but a very few words to it . mr. ashton , as at first he did , so in his defence has complained of a very speedy tryal , and would insinuate something of favour that he might find for that reason . it does appear he had notice of his tryal sufficient , and had time enough to prepare for it : but there is one thing extraordinary has happened to his advantage , which i would desire may be taken notice of . if he had been tryed on saturday , perhaps he had had more reason to complain than now he has ; for he has now ( and you see he uses it , and wisely enough too ) the advantage that happened to him upon my lord preston's tryal ; and he has had time since saturday to prepare for this days work , so that there is no hard point upon him as to that matter , but he has had pretty good fortune therein . next he does insinuate that he is a protestant : gentlemen , the law does not distinguish between a protestant traytor and a papist traytor ; if he has committed such an offence , as by the law is high treason , the law does not distinguish , nor may we . and protestants may serve papists designs , though they do not directly intend it . therefore the evidence to prove him a protestant is nothing before you ; for the matter is only whether he be guilty of this crime or not . in the tryal of my lord preston , then the labour was , that my lord was not the man that was concerned , as the bearer of this pacquet of letters or writings wherein the treason is contained ; but then it was mr. ashton , the pacquets were found about him ; but now it is not mr. ashton , but my lord preston , and this is now the question before you , that he stands upon . but if so be they were all concerned in the carriage and transporting of this business , then they are all alike guilty of treason , and therefore they cannot shuffle it from one to another . now there appears some reason why they would not all agree to be tryed together ; for now it is but turning it from my lord preston upon ashton , and mr. ashton upon my lord preston , and elliot upon either of them , and so by this means all might escape , if this were sufficient to serve their turn . but the question before you , is , whether all these persons are not all in all equally concerned , and 't is the evidence that must be your guide and ours ; for it is not mr. ashton's affirmation , that he had business to go into france , and he happened unluckily to fall into these mens company , that will be a sufficient excuse , unless he prove it . it had been an easie matter for him to have proved , if he had been going into france upon business for colonel worden ; but at length that is turned off , and then the pretence for going is , to recover some mony he had owing to him there , and that he had payed for another person . had he paper of instructions of this kind ? had he any one witness of this thing ? the merchandize that he carryed out with him is of another import . where were the notes or bonds that he was to recover ? where is the accompt that he had to make up with any body beyond sea ? there is no manner of evidence of any such thing . next gentlemen , do but consider , if the man were so innocent as he would insinuate , as if he had not gone with the rest upon this errand , how came the man to have so heavy a concern upon him ? why should he go to take up these papers , if they were not his brats ? why should he clap them into his bosom , if he knew nothing what was in them ? why was his concern so great to have them thrown overboard ? gentlemen , if you expect that the hearts of men should be proved otherwise than as men , guess by one anothers meanings ; by their actions 't is impossible to convict any man of a crime ; for if his own affirmation shall be a defence , he will never want a defence to keep himself from being convicted : but that is not what the law gives credit to ; it must be proof and evidence that you are to judg upon . but of all he pretends to he proves nothing . how came he acquainted with my l. preston ? sure he was a man sufficiently known in the world ? why should he go with him and mr. ellyott ? are they not all known ? are they not persons much of the same disposition , and much in the same imployment ? he had been taken a little before , he says himself , and was hindred from going ; and he had strange ill luck , if there was nothing else in the business than what he pretends . gentlemen , in short , if you do find by the evidence , that he was going upon a good and an honest design , and that he knew nothing of the danger that was in these papers , and that these persons were in , by reason of these papers , and yet would go about to have these papers concealed , and endeavour to have them thrown away , without knowing what was in them : these are evidences that will be good for you to go by , if you have any such ; but to take his affirmation , because he says it , when he proves nothing , that is no evidence to go by . i leave it to you , as my lord has done . if you are satisfied upon that evidence that he is guilty ; i doubt not you know and will do your duty , and will find him so ; and if you have no such evidence , or any to prove the contrary , that he is not guilty , then you ought to find him so too . mr. ashton , i beg your pardon for one word . l. ch. j. holt , what would you say ? mr. ashton , my lord , i shall reckon it a particular favor , if you will pardon me one word , after your lordship has given the charge . l. c. j. holt , well , what say you ? mr. ashton , i think , with submission , that there is no proof i knew or was privy to the contents of any of these papers . l. c. j. pollexfen , pray mr. ashton , shew any man any reason , if you can , why did you go down and catch up these papers , if you did not know what was in them ; they might be for your advantage to be shewn , for any thing you pretend to know . mr. ashton , i did it for my l. preston's sake , whose hand was proved , and he stands convicted as the bearer of those papers . mr. j. eyres , but you forget one thing that was plainly proved , mr. ashton , that when you importun'd capt. billop to throw away the papers , you used this as an argument , it would do him no good to injure three honest gentlemen . mr. ashton , i did not say so , my lord , that i know of , tho indeed he has sworn it . l. ch. j. holt , look you , mr. ashton , you have been heard as long as you did desire to speak , and were askt over and over again , whether you had any more : you are not now saying any new matter ; if you could urge any thing that had been omitted , which made for your advantage , i believe the court would indulge you , tho it 〈◊〉 ●gainst the course . mr. ashton , my lord , i say 〈…〉 ●●thing under my hand , there is no privity proved ; does supposition 〈◊〉 a man ? and is there any thing but supposition against me ? there is not my hand proved in any of the papers . i beseech your lordship and the jury to observe that . l. ch. j. holt , your being in the company , and being so concerned , and importunately endeavouring to have them thrown overboard ; the hiring the vessel to go with these treasonable papers to an enemies country , and the papers found about you , is fact proved , and is left to the gentlemen of of the the jury to consider of . mr. ashton . but does all this amount to more than suspicion ? l. c. j. holt. look you , mr. ashton , if you speak after we have charged the jury , you will give us an occasion of speaking to answer you ; the gentlemen of the jury are men of understanding , they have very well observed the evidence , and i perceive they have been very extraordinary intent upon it , they will be able to make a right judgment , no question of it . mr. ashton . all that i desire , is ; there is nothing proved upon me , of my knowing what was in these papers . mr. j. eyres . and there is that which is very considerable too , that 't is plain , what you say about coll. worden's account , is but a pretence , for which you were searcht , there was not one paper nor one bit of account found about you , nothing but this bundle of treasonable papers and letters . mr. ashton . my lord , i humbly begg you will observe what is for me , as well as what is against me . l. c. j. holt. gentlemen of the jury , do you think you shall stay out any time , the court desires to know it , because they will order themselves accordingly . juryman . my lord we do not know till we come together . l. c. j. holt. nay , take your own time , only the court would comply with your conveniency in the adjournment . then the jury withdrew , and the court adjourn'd for half an hour , and when they were returned , the jury came in to give their verdict , and being called over , answered to their names . cl. of arr. gentlemen , are you all agreed of your verdict ? jury . yes . cl. of arr. who shall say for you ? jury . our foreman . cl. of arr. john ashton hold up thy hand . [ which he did ] look upon the prisoner ; how say you ? is he guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of arr. what goods or chattels ? &c. foreman . none that we know of . maj. richardson , look to him , he is found guilty of high treason . cl. of arr. then hearken to your verdict , as the court hath recorded it . you say that john ashton is guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , but that he had no lands nor tenements , goods nor chattels , at the time of the high treason committed , nor at any time since to your knowledg , and so you say all ? jury , yes . l. c. j. pollexfen , gentlemen , i think truly you have gone according to your evidence , which the law requires you to do , and that is it which will preserve us all . and tho it be truly a thing that falls hard upon the particular men that are concerned in such things ; yet notwithstanding , we must have more consideration of the general good , and preservation , and the support of the government , and that the law have its due course , than of any particular man's case , as to the hard point of it ▪ we must look to these things , or there will be no living in the 〈…〉 sir w. hedges , my lord , we 〈…〉 of your lordship that we may be dismist from further attendan●● 〈…〉 l. c. j. pollexfen . ay. cl. of arr. gentlemen , you are dismist , and the court thanks you for your service . then the court adjourned for an hour , and then the lord mayor and deputy recorder , with several of the justices and aldermen returned into the court , and after proclamation for silence , order was given to bring the lord preston , and mr. ashton to the bar. [ which was done ] the lord preston standing without the bar , and mr. ashton within . cl. of arr. sir richard grahm , hold up your hand . [ which he did . ] john ashton , hold up your hand . [ which he did . ] my lord preston , you stand convicted of high treason , for conspiring the death of the king and queens majesties , for adhering to the king's enemies , and endeavouring to subvert the government : what can you say for your self , why the court should not proceed to give judgment against you of death according to the law ? lord preston . 't is true , my lord , the jury have found me guilty of the treason assigned in the indictment . my lord , it is a treason of a very heavy and black nature , 't is of such a nature , that if i had been conscious to my self to have deserved , i should be very willing to undergo that judgment that is like presently to pass upon me . it is to endeavour to bring in the king of france to conquer and invade this kingdom ; 't is a thought i always abhorred ; i love my religion , my family , my country too well to attempt or endeavour any such thing ; i must appeal to your lordship , though now perhaps it is too late , whether the treason that is laid against me has been perfectly proved ; for in the case of proving hands , and particularly in the case of collonel sidney , it was disallowed that comparison of hands should be evidence ; there ought to be at least one if not two evidences to prove the writing of it . my lord , i know this is too late , i should have offered this to the jury before , but being in the crowd and in great disorder by standing so long , i had not strength or ability enough to urge it as i should . i have nothing more to say in the case but submit to that judgment that the law has assigned . mr. d. recorder . my lord preston , your lordship knows the proceedings of the law in such cases ; there is no averring against the verdict of the jury , they have found your lordship guilty , and the law says , that judgment must be given upon you according to that verdict . lord preston . mr. recorder , i do not aver against the verdict . i own it is too late , i should have offered it before , and i submit to the judgment of the law. cl. of arr. john ashton , hold up thy hand . [ which he did . ] you are in the same case with the prisoner last before you . what can you say for your self , why judgment should not be given against you , to die according to law. mr. ashton . my lord , i would humbly desire i might have a sight of my indictment ; i have some reason perhaps to believe that i am found guilty upon an erroneous indictment , and if it be so , i would desire to have councel to argue the errors of the indictment . mr. d. record . you have heard it twice read in english , and once in latin , and that is all that is allowed to any one in your case , i never knew the record of any indictment shewn to any prisoner at the bar. mr. ashton . suppose there be any error in it . mr. d. record . i am not to suppose any such thing , if there is any , it has been read to you , assign it and the court will consider of it . mr. ashton . if i can assign the errors in the indictment , may i have the advantage of it then ? mr. d. record . if there be 〈…〉 you will have the advantage of them : if you will assign them ; if there be none , you can have none . mr. ashton . then i say , if there be words in the indictment that there are no such words in nature , then , sir , i am told it is a vicious and erroneous indictment , and that is enough to viciate the indictment . mr. d. record . no such words in nature ? it is hard to tell what you mean by that ; perhaps there are terms of art in the law , which though you are not acquainted with , we are . mr. ashton . then there are such words in nature . mr. d. record . that is an insensible expression , words in nature ! mr. ashton . i am informed that even a letter in an indictment is enough to viciate it , or if it be false latin , that will make it an erroneous indictment . mr. d. record . no , that is not so ; but if you will tell me what that letter is , i 'll tell you what i say to it ; it may , or it may not be material . mr. ashton . we know it was lately disputed in a case of this nature at this place , and i am informed the court were of opinion , if it had been in the body of the indictment , it had been an error . mr. d. record . if you please to tell me wherein the error in your indictment consists , i may be able to give you a good answer to it , or you will have the advantage of it . mr. ashton . i say it consists in this , the word cymba is written with an s in the indictment , whereas it should be with a c. mr. d. record . how do you know it ? mr. ashton . it is no matter how i know it , i have some reason to know it , it may be . mr. d. record . mr. hardesty , look upon the record . mr. ashton . with submission , that is an error , for there is no such word as cymba with an s. cl. of arr. it is a long indictment ; will you please to ask him where about it is . mr. d. record . mr. ashton , will you tell me where 't is written . mr. ashton . in the indictment when you come to speak of cymba a boat. mr. d. record . by the sound i cannot distinguish whether it be s or c. mr. ashton . sir , i hope you will do me the justice to examine the indictment it self . mr. d. record . the clerk is looking upon it ; how is it mr. hardesty ? is it with an s or a c ? cl. of arr. it is with a c. mr. d. record . the clerk has read it , and he certifies me it is in both places with a c which is true latin. mr. ashton . is it in all places with a c ? cl. of arr. i have lookt in two places and 't is right ; i 'll look further , if you please . mr. ashton . pray do . [ which he did . ] cl. of arr , it is with a c. in all places . mr. d. record . the clerk tells me it is the same , and right in every place , and he has lookt over all the indictment , as to the matter . mr. ashton . then sir i submit to it . mr. d. record . make proclamation for silence ; [ which was done . ] mr. d. record . my lord preston , or rather sir richard grahme , and mr. john ashton , ye have been indicted , arraigned and convicted of high treason against their present majesties king william and queen mary , whom god preserve . ye have had a long , and a fair , and favourable tryal as any persons that ever have been tryed at this bar. the jury that has passed upon your lives and deaths has convicted you ; and the court are now to do their last act ▪ which is to pronounce that sentence that the law does inflict upon 〈…〉 as ye stand convicted of . it is a great trouble to me to 〈…〉 judgment that is so heavy upon you ; but i must say , the evidence 〈◊〉 has been given against you , was so clear , and i suppose not only convincing to the twelve men that tryed you , but to all by-standers , that i can do it with that satisfaction that becomes one who is intrusted with the king's justice , that the law may obtain , and that there should be no interruption of justice . and the sentence that the law has declared should be pronounced in this case , is this : that ye do respectively go to the place from whence ye came ; from thence to be drawn upon a sledge to the place of execution , to be there hang'd up by the neck , to be cut down while ye are yet alive , to have your hearts and bowels taken out before your faces , and your members cut off and burnt , your heads severed from your bodies , your bodies divided into four quarters , your heads and bodies respectively to be disposed of according to the king's will and pleasure ; and the lord have mercy upon your souls . then the prisoners were conveyed away to newgate , the place from whence they came . an account of two letters ; one of which is from the late king james to the pope , as it is extracted out of the register taken at dublin , july . . with a marginal note , that it was all written with his own hand . the other is , an original letter from the earl of melfort , ( the late king 's principal secretary of state ) to the late queen , taken also at dvblin at the same time . it is thought proper , upon this occasion , to expose these letters to publick view , which would not have been so seasonable at another time as now , when the enemy has given open proofs of those designs which by these letters will appear to have been long concerted by them : and although , by the providence of god , they have been hitherto prevented ; yet since hereby , and by the late discovery , the industry of those who endeavour to subvert this government , is not only manifest , but that they give themselves great encouragement to believe they shall be able to effect it ; it is hoped , that these warnings will stir men up to such a degree of vigilance , as will make them careful to prevent any future designs against the peace and quiet of the kingdom . beatissime pater , gaudium ex vestrae sanctitatis in b. patris cathedram elevatione conceptum , literis nostris per comitem de melfort primum secretarium nostrum missis expressum . literae s. v. manu scriptae sinceri amoris paterni & tenerae compassionis ob ea quae patimur testes adeo auxerunt , ut malorum sensum minuerint , & nos verè consolata sint . unica turbarum contra nos excitatarum origo est , quod catholicam fidem amplexi simus , & eamdem in tria regna & latè sparsas per americam nostrorum subditorum colonias reducere statuisse nuper neutrum negamus . posterius quae fecimus in hoc regno probant , ubi enim divino auxilio , parvas quidem , sed frequentes victorias de rebellibus reportassemus ( magnam impedierunt isti , decretoriam pugnam pertinacitèr declinantes ) iis in religionis bonum usi sumus , quam hîc spero brevi firmitèr stabilitum iri . idem in aliis ditionibus nostris factum , ubi divinâ ope iisdem restituti fuerimus . hoc non ita difficilè videtur , modo subsidio aliquo juvemur , adeò aegre ferunt grave usurpationis jugum , & nostri reditûs tam sparsum est desiderium . juvabit pax catholicos inter principes inita , aut si pacem temporis angustiae vetent , induciae , quae etiam finem imponent tragoediae in germania inchoatae , ubi heretici in ipsis ecclesiae visceribus haerent eaque rodunt . nihil opus verbis , ubi res ipsae tam clarè loquuntur , & opem implorant . apostolicus s. v. zelus aliquam providebit malis parem , & à fiduciâ pleni deum veneramur , beatitudini vestrae longum & prosperum regimen largiatur , atque pedibus ejus advoluti , omni cum debito sanctitatis vestrae filiali amore atque observantiâ , apostolicam benedictionem postulamus . datum dublinii , novemb. . dublin , novemb. . translation of a latin letter , whereof the copy is annexed , which was then writ by king james to the pope , as 't is extracted out of the register taken at dublin ; with a marginal note , that it was all writ with his own hand . most holy father , we did by the earl of melfort , our principal secretary of state , signifie to your holiness the joy we had in your promotion to the sacred chair . and those letters which your holiness did with your own hand write us , were such testimonies of fatherly love , and of your tender compassion for what we suffer , that they have lessened the sense of our calamity , and have proved of real consolation to us. the only source of all these rebellions against us is , that we embraced the catholick faith ; and do not disown , but that to spread the same not only in our three kingdoms , but over all the dispersed colonies of our subjects in america , was our determination . to manifest this , there will need no other proof , than to see how lately we have proceeded in this kingdom ; for as we have frequently beaten the rebels in small parties , ( which might have been one complete victory , if they had not obstinately declined to give us battel ) ; so we have still turn'd all to the advantage of religion , and hope very soon to see it here firmly established : nor will it look hard , if but aided by some subsidies , to compass the same in our other dominions , as soon as by god's favour we shall be restored , seeing our people do so ill bear the usurper's yoke , and so universally long for our return . it would promote this work , if a general peace were settled among the catholick princes , or a truce at least , in case the time be too short for the other : for this would put an end to those calamities begun in germany , and where the hereticks lie now gnawing in the very bowels of the church . but what need we speak on this subject , where the things themselves are so loud , and implore your aid ? the apostolick zeal of your holiness must find out remedies fit for these evils ; and in full confidence hereof , we beseech god to give your holiness a long and happy reign : and we being , with all love and filial observance prostrate at your feet , do beg your apostolical benediction . given at our castle of dublin , this th of november , . may it please your majesty , since the last post , not having had any new occasion of demanding audience of the pope , i went to the cardinal ottoboni , whom after four or five disappointments , i at last found , and informed him of the matter , and begged his assistance with the pope , for all those reasons which your majesty has already seen , and what else i could invent . the cardinal seemed much more willing to enter into the matter than formerly ; was very glad at the news ; told me , that he had seen your majesties letter to the pope , all of your own hand ; that it was all their concerns ; that he was but the pope's minister , and so could answer for nothing , but informing him right , and that he promised to me he would do with as much affection to your majesties interest , as i could do if i were there . he complained ( in confidence ) to me , that the pope had some about him who were not so affectionate , and that so he often left him well inclined , and found him changed at next meeting ; but that in this he would do all that was in his power . he said , he doubted not that i was informed of the emperor's proceedings , how angry he was at the pope , &c. i told him , that for those about the pope , if any of them contradicted his inclinations , i humbly conceived it to be his fault , who having the double authority of minister and nephew , might easily make the palace too hot for any who would oppose him , especially in things so just , and , indeed , so necessary for his interest . that i was , indeed , informed of the emperor's h●ffing ; but withal , knew how little that would signify , if he took the right way , which was to assist the king to his throne , who would be in a condition to bring europe to peace on just terms , and not only to assist the pope , but to profit his eminence and all his family ; that i knew what a king of england could do , and what the generosity of this king would do to such as obliged him , as his eminence might do in this conjuncture ; that the emperor was lost however to them , and that made it the more necessary to hold in with same , so as to have a friend in time of need ; that if this was true , i informed him of the nearest way to put himself above what the house of austria could do , was to push on the wheel that went easiliest , and then the king on his throne , that family would not talk so high . i had all the satisfaction in words i could desire ; but in effect , i believe nothing will be done till the news of the rising come , and then i am very confident something will be done ; so i pray god we may have the news of it speedily : and if it be not dispatched hither before this come to your majesties hands , i would humbly beseech your majesty to get the m. c. king to send an express with it hither , that we may make the greater impression with it ; in the mean time , i shall ( after the post comes ) endeavour another audience , that i may still be keeping them in mind of what it 's so much their duty to do however . i am sorry , that on this important occasion , i should be so little useful to so good a master ; but it is god's will , and i must submit to it . i am told , how true i know not , that in ireland they begin to be sorry for their injustice to me ; pray god it be true , and that my example may hinder them from falling in the like with mr. de lauzune , who will certainly carry higher than i did with them ; and therefore i have some reasons to fear , from the humours he has to do with . i have written to all my friends to do their best to keep peace ; and that all may prefer the king's service to their own private interest , which i hope in god they will do , and that all shall go well . i am sorry to hear that there was not preparation made for the reception of the french ; the king could do no more but send a lieutenant-general , e. dover , to take order ; but alas , the negligence of the servant makes the master suffer ; and it will never be well till these 〈◊〉 be punished as they deserve , as i doubt not this has been , if the story be true , that the fault was so great ; and the worse the matter is represented in france , the more the king's honour is concerned , not to suffer it to pass unpunished ; one example or two is necessary for the recovering of the kingdoms ; for there is not one thing i stand so much in fear of , as negligence in executing the king's orders . forgive me , madam , for medling in this matter , but i 'll swear i cannot help it ; i must be concerned , when i hear of any thing by which the king is prejudiced , either in his reputation or service . i humbly pray , that almighty god may send his best blessings upon the king , your majesty , and the prince ; and that you may happy together for many years in your own england ; and that all 〈◊〉 subjects may rejoyce at it as heartily as i , who am , may it please your majesty , your majesties most humble , most faithful , and most obedient subject and servant . melfort rome , may . . lady melfort has her most humble duty presented to your majesty ; for which presumption , she begs most humble pardon . finis . the arraignment, tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge for high-treason, in conspiring the death of the king, the levying of war, and the subversion of the government before the right honourable sir francis north, lord chief justice of the court of common-pleas, and other commissioners of oyer and terminer and gaol-delivery held at the city of oxon. for the county of oxon. the th and th of august . i do appoint thomas basset and john fish to print the arraignment, tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge, and that no others presume to print the same. fr. north. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the arraignment, tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge for high-treason, in conspiring the death of the king, the levying of war, and the subversion of the government before the right honourable sir francis north, lord chief justice of the court of common-pleas, and other commissioners of oyer and terminer and gaol-delivery held at the city of oxon. for the county of oxon. the th and th of august . i do appoint thomas basset and john fish to print the arraignment, tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge, and that no others presume to print the same. fr. north. england and wales. court of common pleas. [ ], p. printed by joseph ray at colledge-green for a society of stationers, dublin : . includes colledge's petition to the king. reproduction of original in the cambridge university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng colledge, stephen, ?- -- early works to . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . treason -- england -- early works to . popish plot, -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - ali jakobson sampled and proofread - ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion 〈◊〉 arraignment , tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge for high-treason , in conspiring the death of the king , the levying of war , and the subversion of the government . before the right honourable sir francis north , lord chief justice of the court of common-pleas , and other commissioners of oyer and terminer and goal-delivery held at the city of oxon. for the county of oxon. the th and th of august . i do appoint thomas basset and john fish to print the arraignment , tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge , and that no others presume to print the same . fr. north. dvblin , printed by joseph ray at colledge-green for a society of stationers , . to the kings most excellent majesty . the humble petition of stephen colledge , now prisoner in your majesties tower of london , most humbly sheweth , that whereas your petitioner being charged with high-treason , is under strait confinement , that he hath not liberty to see or speak with any of his friends or his children , and being lately informed that it is ordered your petitioner shall come to his tryal at the city of oxon. about the middle of the next month. your petitioner therefore most humbly prays your sacred majesty , that leave may be given for mr. thomas smith , and mr. robert west to come to him ; and also to have the use of pen , ink and paper , in order only to make his legal and just defence ; and also to have the comfort of seeing his two children . and your petitioner , as in duty bound , shall ever pray , &c. a true copy , francis gwyn . at hampton-court , july . . upon reading this day at the board the petition of stephen colledge , prisoner in the tower , praying that in order to the making his defence at his tryal / which he hears is to be the middle of the next month / he may be permitted to see his two children / to have the liberty of pen / ink and paper / and that mr. thomas smith , and mr. robert west may come to him . his majesty was pleased to order / that the lieutenant of the said tower of london do permit the said stephen colledge to have pen / ink and paper / and to see his two children / and the said mr. thomas smith , and mr. robert west , and to converse with them as often as he shall desire / in the presence and hearing of the wardour who attends him . a true copy . francis gwyn . to the king 's most excellent majesty , and to the right honourable the lords and others of his majesties most honourable privy council . the humble petition of stephen colledge now a prisoner in the tower of london . humbly sheweth , that your petitioner having been a close prisoner ever since his first commitment , is altogether ignorant of the particular matters charged against him , and of the names of the witnesses who are to prove the same ; upon his knowledge of both which , as well the matter as the manner of his defence must depend ; and because upon the consideration of his case , several matters of law may arise as well before as at the time of his tryal , in which , councel will be necessary to assist him , and several matters of fact preparatory to his tryal ; with which , under his confinement , he cannot be furnisht without the help of a sollicitor , and he is like to be wholly uncapable of receiving any benefit from the priviledge allowed by law , of peremptory challenge to several jurors , especially in a countrey where he is absolutely a stranger , unless he may have some knowledge of them before his tryal . in full assurance therefore of the great justice and clemency of your majesty and this honourable board , which he hath lately had some experience of , and doth with all humility and thankfulness acknowledge , your petitioner doth humbly beseech your majesty and this honourable board , that he may have a copy of the indictment against him , or the particular charges of it ; that his councel and sollicitor may have free access to , and private conference with him ; and because their own private affairs or other accidents may call away some of his councel from his assistance , that mr. wallop , m. smith , m. thompson , m. darnell , mr. west of the middle temple , mr. holles of lincolns-inn , mr. rotherham , mr. lovell , mr. rowny of grayes-inn , mr. pollexfin , mr. ward of the inner-temple , may be assigned him for councel , and aaron smith for his sollicitor ; and that he may have a copy of the jurors to be returned upon his tryal , some days before his tryal . and your petitioner shall ever pray , &c. a true copy , francis gwyn . at hampton court , aug. . . it is ordered vp his majesty in council / that the friends and relations of stephen colledge a prisoner in the tower , shall have liberty of visiting and freely conversing with him ; and the lieutenant of the tower having first caused their names to be taken in writing / is to suffer such friends and relations to have access to the said stephen colledge without any interruption from time to time accordingly . a true copy . francis gwyn . the tryal of stephen colledge , &c. present , the lord norreys . lord chief justice north. mr. justice jones . mr. justice raymond . mr. justice levyns . on wednesday the th . of august , . the judges and commissioners of oyer and terminer and gaol-delivery , met at the court-house in the city of oxford ; and after proclamation for silence , the commission of gaol-delivery was read , and then the commission of oyer and terminer . proclamation was made for the sheriff to return the precepts to him directed : the justices of the peace of the county of oxford were called over ; and the appearance of the grand jury summoned to attend this commission was taken . lo. ch. just . north. gentlemen , you that are returned of the grand inqust , there has been a sessions so lately , that in all probability there will be no great matter to trouble you with at this time . and so i shall not trouble my self nor you to give you any charge , because we know of no business yet that we shall need you for . the court hath recorded your appearance . you will do well to be in the way , either in the town , or hereabout the court , that you may be ready if any thing should happen . 't is necessary for us to have your attendance ; but we know not of any thing that we have in particular to trouble you with . we have an indictment before us , let us proceed upon that . cl. of the crown . gaoler , have you your prisoner ? gaoler . we will fetch him presently . then the prisoner was brought to the bar. cl. of cr. stephen colledge , hold up thy hand . ( which he did . ) thou art here indicted by the name of stephen colledge , late of oxford , in the county of oxford , carpenter ; for that thou as a false traytor against the most illustrious , most serene , and most excellent prince , our sovereign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. thy supreme and natural lord , the fear of god in thy heart not having , nor weighing the duty of thy allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , and true , due , and natural obedience which true and faithful subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , towards him our said sovereign lord the king , should and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing and machinating , and with all thy strength intending the peace and common tranquillity of our said sovereign lord the king of this kingdom of england to disturb , and sedition and rebellion , and war against our sovereign lord the king , within this kingdom of england to move , stir up and procure ; and the cordial love , and true and due obedience which true and faithful subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , towards him our said sovereign lord the king should , and of right ought to bear , wholly to withdraw , put out and extinguish , and him our said sovereign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring , and put , the tenth day of march , in the three and thirtieth year of the reign of our sovereign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. at oxford , in the county of oxford , falsly , maliciously , subtilly and traiterously , did purpose , compass , imagine and intend sedition and rebellion within this kingdom of england , to move , stir up , and procure , and a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said sovereign lord the king to procure and cause , and our said sovereign lord the king from his regal state , title , power and government of his kingdom of england , to deprive , depose , cast down and disinherit ; and him our said sovereign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , and the government of the said kingdom at thy will and pleasure to change and alter , and the state of all this kingdom of england , in all its parts well instituted and ordained , wholly to subvert and destroy , and war against our said sovereign lord the king , within this kingdom of england to levy ; and thy said most wicked treasons , and trayterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid to fulfil and perfect , thou the said stephen colledge the said tenth day of march , in the three and thirtieth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king with force and arms , &c. at oxford aforesaid , in the county of oxford aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devilishly and trayterously did prepare arms and warlike offensive habiliments to wage war against our said sovereign lord the king. and thy self in warlike manner for the purposes aforesaid , then and there falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devilishly and traiterously didst arm , and one edward turbervill , and other subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , to arm themselves ; to perfect thy traiterous purposes aforesaid , then and there advisedly , maliciously and trayterously didst incite and advise . and further , then and there falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devilishly and trayterously didst say and declare , that it was purposed and designed to seize the person of our said sovereign lord the king at oxford aforesaid , in the county of oxford aforesaid . and that thou the said stephen colledge in prosecution of thy trayterous purpose aforesaid , wouldst be one of them who should seize our said sovereign lord the king at oxford aforesaid , in the county aforesaid . and that thou the said stephen colledge thy said most wicked treasons and trayterous imaginations , compassings and purposes aforesaid the sooner to fulfil and perfect , and discords between our said sovereign lord the king and his people to move , cause and procure , then and divers times and days as well before as after at oxford aforesaid , in the county of oxford aforesaid , in the presence and hearing of divers liege subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , then and there being present , falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devilishly and traiterously didst say and declare , that nothing of good was to be expected from our said sovereign lord the king ; and that our said sovereign lord the king did mind nothing but beastliness , and the destruction of his people : and that our said sovereign lord the king did endeavour to establish arbitrary government and popery against the duty of thy allegiance , against the peace of our sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statutes in this case made and provided . how sayest thou , stephen colledge , art thou guilty of this high-treason whereof thou standest indicted , and hast been now arraigned , or not guilty ? colledge . my lord , i do desire , if it please your lordship , to be heard a few words . l. ch. just . look you , mr. colledge , the matter that hath been here read unto you is a plain matter , and it hath been read to you in english , that you may understand it . 't is an indictment of high treason ; now you must know , that no plea can be received to it , but either guilty or not guilty as to the fact ; if you can assign any matter in law , do it . colledge . will you please to spare me , that i may be heard a few words . i have been kept close prisoner in the tower ever since i was taken : i was all along unacquainted with what was charged upon me . i knew not what was sworn against me , nor the persons that did swear it against me , and therefore i am wholly ignorant of the matter . i do humbly desire i may have a copy of the indictment , and a copy of the jury that is to pass upon me , and that i may have council assigned me , to advise me , whether i have not something in law pleadable in bar of this indictment . lo. ch. just . these are the things you ask , you would have a copy of the indictment , you would have council assigned to you , to advise you in matter of law , and a copy of the jury . colledge . one word more , my lord , i desire to know upon what statute i am indicted . lo. ch. just . i will tell you for that , is it not contra formam statut. with an abbreviation ? cl. of cr. yes . lo. ch. just . that refers to all manner of statutes that have any relation to the thing in the indictment that is high-treason . for it may be meant contra formam statut. which are all the several statutes that are in force concerning high-treason . now for those things that you demand , you cannot have them by law. no man can have a copy of the indictment by law ; for councel , you cannot have it , unless matter of law arises , and that must be propounded by you ; and then if it be a matter debatable , the court will assign you councel , but it must be upon a matter fit to be argued : for i must tell you , a defence in case of high-treason ought not to be made by artificial cavils , but by plain fact. if you purpose any matter of law , the court will consider of it , and assign you councel , if it be reasonable . for a copy of the jury , that you can't have neither , for there is no such thing as yet ; there is no issue joyned whereupon such a jury should be impannelled . when you have pleaded to issue , then we must award the sheriff to impannel a jury to try that issue . so as to what you say as to want of preparation for your tryal , we cannot enquire what notice you have had ; and yet if you had never so little time , there is no cause why you should not plead , though you were but just now taken and brought to the bar to answer it , and never heard of any thing of it before . so that i think you ought to plead presently . colledge . my lord , i am wholly ignorant of the law , i may ruine my self by mistaking the law ; i desire councel , not to delay my tryal , but only to advise me whether there is not something in law proper for me to plead to this indictment , and those things i alledged were not at all to delay the tryal , but only that i may not be wanting to my self in what i may by law have . lo. ch. just . i tell you , councel cannot be assigned you till the court be possessed of some matter to grant it upon . colledge . i had some papers , my lord , that were taken from me , which i desire may be restored to me . i only plead that i may have my birth-right , and that which the law gives me ; if i may have justice , i desire no more . these papers were taken from me in the house over the way since i was brought from the prison ; they were papers that concerned my defence ; some directions and instructions how to manage my self in that defence . if you please to let me have those papers , i will not take up much of your time ; i desire to have but common justice , and that which is my right by law. l. ch. just . that which you demand , justice , you shall have by the grace of god to the best of our skill , without any partiality in the world. but you must trust the publick justice of the kingdom . we are to be of councel for you , so far as to see that all things proceed fairly on all sides . and when things come before us that are fit for you to have councel upon , you shall have councel assigned you ; for we are tender of the life of a man , as well as of the life of the king , and of the publick justice of the kingdom . but this is no reason why you should not now plead . for the papers you speak of , we will take an examination of them afterwards : if they were papers that are necessary for your defence upon your tryal , in god's name you must have them restored to you ; but we know not which way you came by them , nor what they are . colledge . they were taken from me just now , under the pretence of bringing them to your lordship . lo. ch. just . how comes any body to give you papers ? nobody can solicit for any one that is under an accusation of high-treason , unless he be assigned so to do by the court. colledge . god have mercy upon any man that is so accused then ; for 't is not possible for him to make his defence , if he cannot be at liberty to look after it himself , nor any of his friends permitted to do it for him . lo. ch . just . you can say whether you are guilty or not guilty without any papers . coll. my lord , i know not but there may be something in law for me to plead to this indictment , which i shall lose the benefit of if i plead . i humbly conceive you are to be my councel , and as you are judges , are to proceed according to the law. you are upon your oaths to do me right according to the law. mr. just. jones . but till you have proposed a matter of law fit for councel to argue , there is no councel to be assigned you . colledge . if i had those papers , i could tell what i should plead . my lord , this is one thing , i am a free-man of london , and i am not impleadable by the charter of london , any where out of the liberties of the city in pleas of the crown . lo. ch . just . you are indicted in oxfordshire for high-treason committed here . if there be not any thing of high-treason proved , done in oxfordshire , you will be acquitted . but a free-man of london cannot have a priviledge to commit treason in oxfordshire , but must be tryed for it there . colledge . will you please to order me my papers back that were taken from me ? mr. just . jones . you ought first to plead . you have a right to demand councel in matters of law , but then it must be upon such matters of law as you your self propose to the court , and the court shall judge to be matters of law fit to be debated : till then we cannot assign you councel . colledge . it was so in the tryal of lilburne , and in the tryal of my lord stafford , there was councel assigned to them . mr. just . jones . not before they pleaded to the indictment . colledge . did not your lordships , some of you that are judges of the kings-bench , say , that it was the right of the prisoner to have a copy of the pannel , and of the jury , before the tryal ? mr. just . jones . no sure : here are two of us that are of the court , and we never heard of any such thing . colledge . pray , my lord , do me right , i am ignorant of the law , and through my ignorance may mistake . lo. ch. just . god forbid we should not do you right ; you may expect it from us ; we are upon our oaths to do all the kings subjects right . colledge . i am ignorant in the law , and 't is impossible for me to make my defence without the assistance of my papers . l. ch. just . cannot you tell whether you be guilty or not guilty of this treason ? colledge . i can so , but i know not what error i may run my self into , if i should plead presently , and lose the benefit that the law may give me . lo. ch. just . all matters of law are saved to you after you have pleaded . colledge . pray , my lord , let me have my papers again that were taken from me . cl. of cr. you must plead to the court , guilty or not guilty . colledge . shall i not have my papers after i have pleaded ? lo. ch. just . we will not capitulate with you . move what you will then , but till you have pleaded , we can enter into no other business . colledge . i know not but i might plead some other thing to the indictment . mr. just . jones . propose what you will , if it be a matter in law fit to be argued , you shall have councel assigned you . colledge . pray , my lord , let me have my papers again . if it were not my right to have them , or to have councel , i would not ask it ; but if it be , i would not lose what is my right . l. ch . just . you must plead first . i know not but he may be criminal that brought you those papers : for we allow no sollicitors in cases of treason . colledge . some of those papers were received from me in the tower , and were brought back to me , and taken away but to day , i desire they may be returned . cl. of cr. are you guilty or not guilty ? colledge . those papers tell me i have a plea in law , but what it is , i cannot directly tell without my papers . lo. ch . just . you must mention it , and propose it , and then we will do what is fitting for us to do in it . colledge . i have not that method about me , nor can i directly tell it without my papers ; but 't is something of law about the indictment . lo. ch . just . you are not bound up to forms of law. for if you propose the matter never so loosely , yet if it be a matter of avail , and that which the law is not clearly against you in , you shall have councel , and time to draw it up in form . colledge . i cannot propose the matter so regularly as if i had my papers . mr. just . jones . you are not bound to propose it in formality of law , my lord tells you , only let us know what it is . colledge . i have a priviledge in law , i hope you will give me the benefit of it . lo. ch . just . we will deny you nothing that the law gives you ; but we cannot give you councel . it is not one particular case , but the common course of justice is concerned . without a matter of law arises , we cannot assign you counsel ; if we would , we cannot in justice till you have proposed the matter which the court thinks fit to be argued . colledge . my lord coke says , it is the birth-right of every english-man to have councel in matters of law , and lilburne had it upon solemn argument in his tryal . mr. just . jones . what times were those ? that was before the high court of justice . mr. att. gen. if there be matter in law , it must be proposed to the court , and they are to judge whether it be a point fit to be argued , and then councel is to be assigned you , and not till then . colledge . my lord , i know not but there may be somewhat in law for me to plead to this indictment , till i have my papers i can't tell what it is . lo. ch . just . we know nothing of your papers what they are , you must answer whether you be guilty or not guilty . colledge . if i had my papers , i would answer to it immediately ; but i hope i shall not be murdered . mr. just . jones . have a care of aspersing the court. pray who intends to murder you ? mr. serj. jefferies . i remember in lilburn's tryal that he speaks of , such words were used indeed . colledge . my lord , i hope i shall not be deny'd what is necessary for my defence . this design is not only against me , but against all the protestants . mr. art. gen. how long have you been a protestant , mr. colledge ? colledge . ever since i knew what religion was , sir , i never was any thing else . for gods sake , my lord , let me have the justice of the nation , and what by law an english-man ought to have . lo. ch . just . you must plead guilty or not guilty , or you must shew some matter that you will plead , that is proper for us to assign you councel . if we should record your refusal , you would be judged to stand mute , and sentence would pass upon you . colledge . if i have a priviledge in law as an english-man , i will not forfeit it , if i can help it , for any thing in the world . therefore i desire i may have my papers again , that i may see if i can plead any thing in law ; for if i have a priviledge by the law , before i will forfeit it , you shall do what you please with me . lo. ch . just . you 'll have the advantage of all that matter that is in your papers after you have pleaded , if there be any advantage . colledge . pray , my lord , order me my papers that were taken away from me . lo. ch . just . they were not taken away by me . colledge . they were taken away by the keeper , under pretence to bring them to your lordship . l. ch . just . i know not how you came by them . there came one to me last night that is a common sollicitor , one aaron swith , and desired he might have liberty to go and speak with the prisoner . i told him , i did not understand till he were assigned by the court , that any could justifie solliciting for a man that is accused of high treason nor could any be of councel till they were assigned : for a defence against treason ought to be by plain matters of proof and fact , and not by artificial cavils . but if you will propose any thing of substance , as a matter in law which the court shall think fit to be argued , propose it , and then we will assign you councel . colledge . is it not my right that i ought to have a copy of the jury ? lo. ch . just . look you for that now , you cited the opinion of the judges of the kings-bench . my brothers , two of them that are here , who are judges in that court , say , they know nothing of any such matter : but i must tell you , you have liberty by law to challenge . by your sight premptorily , without shewing cause . they are bound to look upon you when they come to be sworn , and if you have any just cause , you may except against as many more as as you will. but now we that proceed upon a commission of gaol-delivery , are to proceed with expedition ; there are no particular men designed for a jury that i know of . but when you have pleaded , we shall award the sheriff to impannel a jury . colledge . if the law allow me the liberty of challenging , it does intend it me that i may challenge those persons that i think will do me no justice ; but where they are strangers unto me , if i can have no information about any of them by my own enquiry , or my friends , i may challenge my friends as well as my foes : and should there be any person that has a prejudice against me , and i not know it , he may chance to be one . l. c. j. i hope they will be neither friends nor foes , but true men . coll. i know not that , my lord. mr. just . jones . this that you say as to a copy of the jury , is unseasonable . there is no jury , nor can be awarded till you have pleaded . there must be first issue joyned , and that cannot be but upon your plea of not guilty . therefore you must plead first , and then say all you will. cl. of cr . are you guilty or not guilty ? coll. my lord , may not i have a pannel of the jury ? mr. just . jo . there is no such thing in being . coll. i know not what to say to it ; pray , my lord , let me have my papers . cl. of cr . you have heard the opinion of the court , you must first plead . coll. i cannot plead first , i must lose my life if i must ; i neither know who accuses me , nor what it is they accuse me of : 't is impossible i should defend my self if i have not my papers . l. c. j. we know not what papers you mean. coll. the gaoler took them from me , and one of the kings messengers . pray , my lord , will you order them to be returned to me again : let me but see whether i have any right or no , and whether i have any thing to plead or no : when i have perused my papers , i will propose it as well as i can to you . pray , my lord , let me have a fair tryal . l. c. j. we promised you a fair tryal , but you must put your self upon that tryal by your pleading . coll. i cannot do that without my papers , my lord. let me but have them again , and i will not delay your time at all . l. c. j. you can tell whether you are guilty or not guilty , can't you ? coll. if i have a plea in law against the indictment , i hope you will not hinder me of that which is my right . it is possible the indictment does not lay it right , either as to the matter of treason , or as to the place . mr. just . jones . that is upon the issue of not guilty upon your tryal . if there be not matter of fact , or words proved that are treason in this place , you will have the advantage of it upon your tryal . coll. i know not , my lord , but that the indictment does mention something of treason , and something of misdemeanour . mr. just . jones . that which is misdemeanour , won't amount to a proof of the treason upon the tryal . l. c. j. if they prove no treason against you here , but only misdemeanour , i do not understand that the jury can find you guilty of that misdemeanour ; for 't is another crime , and there is another sort of proceedings for it . in misdemeanour there are no peremptory challenges ; in misdemeanour councel is to be allowed for the prisoner , but not in treason . coll. pray , my lord , be pleased to order me my papers again : i know not what to say without i have the assistance of my papers : when i have them , i shall be ready to plead presently , according as i shall find i may by law . this i am sure , i have done nothing , nor said nothing of treason , and i pray for nothing but justice , and that which is my right . this is a most horrid conspiracy to take away my life ; and it will not stop here , for it is against all the protestants in england . l. c. j. mr. colledge , you do not only trifle , but run out into very great extravagancies . who has any conspiracy against your life ? you shall be allowed to give in evidence any thing of any conspiracy against you , or contrivance against you when you are upon your tryal . now the question is , are you guilty or not guilty ? i see no use of papers that you can have as to the plea. mr. just . jones . you will run into danger by spending of time . colledge . pray my lord , order me my papers , they are in the hands of mr. murrell the gaoler , and sewell the kings messenger . lo. ch . just . when you have pleaded we will take it into consideration . colledge . my lord , it may be too late then . lo. ch . just . 't is a plain matter before you , whether you be guilty or no. you know what to answer . coll. i will give a direct answer , after i have my papers again . mr. just . jones . you can give an answer to that without papers . lo. ch . just . consult with your own heart , and there you may receive an answer to that question . mr. att. gen. mr. colledge ; can any body tell whether you be guilty or no , better then your self ? mr. just . jones . if you expect any papers , they ought to be framed by your self ; for by law none can advise you what to plead . colledge . i don't expect it in matter of fact , but if matter of law arise . mr. just . jones . but this is a matter of fact , and therefore you may plead not guilty , as well without your papers , as if you had them . colledge . but if there be any matter of law , that i ought to have the advantage of . mr. just . jones . then you ought to have no advice , till they be assigned by the court : for by the law , neither counsel nor advice are allowable to you , till the matter has been proposed , and the court think fit to assign you counsel . mr. just . levinz . you talk of the priviledge of an english man ; you have all the priviledges of an english-man : you are here brought to an open tryal , according to the law , and by that law you must plead . now if a man be indicted for high-treason , he is bound to plead either guilty or not guilty , unless he has a matter in law to excuse him from that plea , which must be proposed to the court , and then counsel will be assigned , and if so be matter of law arises upon any evidence that is given against you at the tryal , you may demurr upon that evidence , and pray counsel of the court to argue that demurrer , and they will not deny you : but i think you must plead presently . colledge . i suppose other persons that have been tried , have had councel before they have pleaded . mr. just . jones . but never before the matter was proposed to the court. l. c. j. it was so in the case of my lord stafford . the court made him propose his matters in law , and so it was in lilburn's case . he did insist upon a great many matters in law , and had the books there himself . coll. i am wholly ignorant of the law , my lord. mr. serj. jeff. your lordships are the judges of law in this case . the question here in short is , whether the prisoner be guilty or not guilty , and that being demanded of him by the court , if he refuses , let him take the consequence of it . coll. what is that pray , sir george ? mr. att. gen. judgment of high-treason . for if a person stand mute , and will not plead to an indictment of high-treason , the common judgment of pressing to death must not pass upon him , but an attainder of high-treason . coll. well , if it be so , i cannot help it . i thank god i am innocent of any treason , or any such thing . l. c. j. why don't you plead not guilty then ? coll. i do not refuse to plead , i am willing to plead with all my heart , if i may have my right . mr. just . jo . if you do not plead , you do refuse to plead . coll. pray , my lord , let me have my papers . mr. att. gen. pray give the court an account where you had those papers . l. c. j. nay , we will not enter into any examination of that matter now , mr. attorney ; he can have no use of papers to see whether he should plead guilty or not guilty . mr. s. jeff. we know nothing of those papers , we desire he may answer to the question shortly , whether he be guilty or not guilty ; if not , we pray your lordships judgment . coll. i had them not all from one person , they were received from my own hands some of them in the tower , and being brought back to me , they were taken from me to day , let me have but one of them : the paper of instructions in point of law , that i may know what is my right , i would not throw away my life , if i have any thing that is my right that can preserve it . l. c. j. you are to give a plain answer , whether you are guilty or not guilty ? now for that you have no use of papers : for you can best tell whether you be guilty or not . if you can propose any matter of law that you can have to plead , do it . coll. if i have any plea that i may plead besides not guilty , i desire i may have my papers to consider of it , and that i may have councel assigned me . l. c. j. if you have any such plea , tell us the matter , and the subststance of it . coll. i do not know what really are matters of law , if i had those instructions that are in my papers , i could give you a direct answer presently . l. c. j. you ought not to have any advice to decline your tryal : when you propose matter of law your self , you may have advice upon it . but you ought not to have advice to decline your tryal before-hand . cl. of cr . are you guilty , or not guilty ? coll. mr. attorney , pray let me have a copy of the indictment . mr. att. gen. apply your self to the court for it , we must receive our directions from thence . l. c. j. you have had the opinion of the court , you can't have it . m. just . levinz . you have been told nothing can be received from you but a plea of guilty or not guilty , and the court have given you their opinion , and that you cannot have a copy of the indictment , nor councel assigned you , till you offer something for them to be assigned upon . l. c. j. and that was it which was done in the king's-bench in the case of fitz-harris , which i suppose you meant when you spake of the judges opinions . mr. just . jones . nothing was done there till he himself assigned the matter in law that he would plead , and then councel was assigned him . mr. serj. jeff. mr. colledge was in the court at that time , and can tell what was done . l. c. j. if you desire the indictment read over again distinctly , that you may have . mr. att. gen. ay , with all my heart . coll. pray let me hear it again , my lord , if you please . l. c. j. read it over again to him , and read it distinctly . cl. of cr . thou art indicted by the name of stephen colledge late of oxon. in the county of oxon. carpenter , as a false traytor . coll. i have observed one thing already , my lord , i pray i may have pen and ink. l. c. j. ay , give him pen and ink , let him make what observations he can . then the clerk read the indictment through . cl. of cr . art thou guilty of this high-treason , or not guilty ? coll. this indictment , if i understand it , says , there was a plot and conspiracy by me and others ; now i know when my lord stafford was tryed , they did proceed to prove first , that there was such a plot , and then that my lord was guilty of it ; first , that there was such a conspiracy by the papists , is it not requisite they should first prove such a plot and conspiracy there was , before they go to prove me guilty of it ? mr. just . jones . what , before you have pleaded ? l. c. j. when you have pleaded , the next thing is to try you , and to give the evidence , but what way the king's councel will take to manage your tryal , that we can't tell . mr. just . jones . but they are not to be directed by you , mr. colledge . colledge . it was so done in my lord stafford's case . lo. ch. just . he pleaded first however , you have not yet pleaded . cl. of cr . are you guilty or not guilty ? l. ch. just . do not trifle any longer , 't is a plain matter , and requires a very short and plain answer . colledge . your lordships are my councel as well as my judges , and i do desire if i have any right to plead any other matter , you will be pleased to declare it to me , for i am ignorant in the law. mr. just . jones . we have declared our opinion already , that you have no right to have any solicitor or councel till matter of law do arise . coll. is it your lordships opinion that i have no plea in law ? mr. just . jones . have you no plea in law ? l. c. j. he would have our judgment whether there be any or no. mr. just . jones . you your self know best , we know nothing you have to plead . colledge . i cannot unless i have counsel , and my papers . l. c. j. there does nothing appear to us . coll. i know nothing of the law. l. c. j. then plead not guilty , that is a ready plea. mr. just . jones . you have heard our opinion over and over again . you have as much counsel as is allowed in these cases , for every man is best judge of his own case , what to plead , whether guilty or not guilty : you have had as fair play as ever any man had . mr. att. gen. mr. colledge has said he knows of no plea in law he has , and therefore there is none ; for de non apparentibus , & non existentibus , the reason is the same . l. c. j. in matter of fact there is no plea but not guilty . coll. the court are judges in matter of law , and they are my counsel . mr. just . jones . and the court have all of them declared they know of nothing in law that you have to plead . coll. is not counsel to be allowed to one under my circumstances ? l. c. j. if you have any thing for councel to be assigned upon , you shall have them . coll. if i am ignorant of that , and cannot propose it , shall i not have the assistance of councel ? mr. just . jones . no , we have told you the law plainly , and that which is frequent in practice in like cases , and you must be contented with the same measure . coll. my lord , i am ignorant of the law . l. c. j. then rely upon the fact , and plead not guilty . coll. but if i have a right to any point in law , let me have it . mr. just . jones . you have a right if you will propose any matter of law , but we cannot propose it for you . mr. att. gen. mr. colledge , no man ought to propose your plea for you , ignoruntia juris non excusat . colledge . shall my ignorance destroy me , mr. attorney ? mr. sol. gen. you have heard the opinion of the court , you have a right to propose any other plea that you can your self , but you have no right to ask counsel before you have pleaded . mr. serj. jeff. if mr. colledge have such a thing as a solicitor , i shall crave leave to put that solicitor in mind of the case of one that was indicted of high-treason , for soliciting for one that was accused of high-treason . mr. att. gen. we shall talk of that by and by . l. c. j. the same methods are used in your case , as are in all cases of the like nature , as far as my knowledge reacheth . colledge . if i have a right to the law , i must not lose it for my own ignorance of the law ; but if you deny me both my counsel and my papers , you take away the means of my coming to that right , and make me uncapable of making my defence . lo. ch . just . you have been told you must plead before you do any thing . colledge . this is the person , ( pointing to a person by him ) that had the papers . be pleased to command him that i may have them again : he said he had order to take them from me , and bring them to your lordship . l. c. j. i know of no use you could have of any papers to plead guilty or not guilty . mr. sol. gen. if there be in those papers advice in matters of law , that you have been told you ought not to have , till the court has assigned you councel to give you advice . coll. then if there be a right in law , and a priviledge which i ought to have , i must lose it by my being ignorant of it , and have no one to advise me about it neither . l. c. j. you may propose it , if you have any , if not you must plead to the indictment . mr. serj. jeff. my lord , it has not been usual for us that are of the kings counsel , to enter into dialogues with prisoners at the bar. the first thing that is to be done in such cases , is for the prisoner to plead guilty , or not guilty or to offer something to the court that may be a matter in law fit to be debated ▪ and this we pray may be done in this case , and that the prisoner may plead presently , or else we desire your judgment . coll. pray let me have my papers again , my lord. lo. ch . just . you go in a circle , and run round from one thing to another , and will receive no answer . we have told you our opinion , and we must tell you , that though you hold long discourses , yet you will be judged lost and 〈◊〉 if you plead not a legal plea. therefore you must plead guilty , or not guilty , or offer something that may be a plea in law , and then you shall have the assistance of councel , but you must have none till then . colledge . but shall i not have my papers my lord ? l. c. j. we know nothing of them . colledge . pray my lord order the man to give them to me , that took them from me . l. ch . just . we will order no such thing . he may be a criminal perhaps that did give them you at first , but when you have pleaded we will hear any motion you will make about them . coll. it may be i ought to plead that the words were spoke in another place , then the place lay'd in the indictment . l. c. j. you will not need to plead any such thing , for if there be nothing proved of treason that you said or did in oxford-shire you must be found not guilty . coll. here is another thing , my lord , i am indicted by the name of colledge carpenter . l. c. j. what then ? coll. i am not a carpenter but a joyner , is that any bar to it ? l. c. j. the addition signifies nothing , i do not know any difference betwixt a carpenter and a joyner in law. mr. just . jones . they might have indicted you by the name of labourer and it had been good . coll. pray my lord either give me my papers or assign me counsel , or else i may throw away my life , for i am wholly ignorant of the law. l. c. j. when you have pleaded we will hear any motion you will make , and do that which is just upon it : but i see no use you can have of papers to plead guilty or not guilty , which is the only question is asked you . cl. of cr . are you guilty , or not guilty ? coll. will you promise me my lord , there shall no advantage be taken against me , if i do plead so ? l. c. j. we will make no bargains with you . plead as you ought by law to do . coll. if matters of law arise , shall i have counsel to speak to them ? mr. just . jones . yes you shall , you need not doubt it . propose any matter now fit to be argued , and you shall have counsel to it . coll. i am not capable of doing it . i know not when i have any right . mr. just . jones . the court is of councel to you . coll. if you are my counsel , then have i any plea in law to make ? mr. just . jones . you have heard the indictment read , what say you ? for you must propose the matter . l. c. j. we know of none but guilty , or not guilty , if you can tell of any do . coll. i pray i may have my papers again ; if there be no other plea for me , pray let me have my papers again . lo. ch . just . you have heard the opinion of the court , you must plead . mr. att. gen. certainly mr. colledge , you can't be guilty of these things , you need not scruple it , to plead not guilty sure . coll. my lord , having been kept a prisoner , as i have been , without pen , ink or paper , no conversation with my friends , no knowledge of the fact , and being ignorant of the law , not knowing where i have a right , nor when i have a right ; if you do force me upon this plea , and it cost me my life , at your doors lye it . mr. just . jones . you will lose your life if you do not plead ; if you plead not guilty , and are not proved guilty , you will save your life by this plea. colledge . i am willing to plead what the law requires of me to plead , and if i have a right in law , i would not lose it . cl. of cr. are you guilty , or not guilty ? colledge . why then , as they have laid it in that indictment , in manner and form as 't is there laid , i am not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit , by whom wilt thou be tryed ? colledge . by god and my countrey . cl. of cr . god send thee a good deliverance . mr. just . jones . got guilty is his plea. lo. ch . just . now he has pleaded , mr. attorney , he speaks of some papers , if there be any memorandums or any thing that must assist him , that is necessary for his defence in his tryal in those papers , it will be hard to deny him them . mr. att. gen. if your lordships please to give me leave ▪ i will give you an account of them . the messenger just now did deliver these papers to be delivered to the court. colledge . pray speak out , mr. attorney , and let me hear . mr. att. gen. when he came to prison he had none , but mr. aaron smith , the messenger informed me , did deliver them to him . l. ch . just . whose hand-writing are the papers in ? coll. he received them from me in the tower. mr. just . jones . you received them from him first . colledge . no. mr. att. gen. what were the papers you delivered to him in the tower ? colledge . the three pieces joyned together that contains directions how to govern my self , there is another of the same purpose which instructs me to demand a copy of the indictment , and of the pannel of the jury , and those were instructions to tell me what the law allows me . mr. att. gen. here is a speech made for you that begins thus . before you plead , speak to this purpose . pray , my lord , i desire that may be examined , and mr. smith may be called to give an account how he came to give the prisoner those papers ; for here are abundance of niceties proposed for him to move , and there will be a strange sort of proceedings at this rate , if men go about to espouse the cause of traytors . colledge . i am no traytor , mr. attorney . mr. att. gen. you stand indicted of high-treason . colledge . that is by a grand jury made up that morning , as i am informed . mr. att. gen. here is a list of the names of several men of the countrey returned to be of the jury , and particular marks set upon them , who are good men , and who bad men , and who moderate men . colledge . ought i not to have that paper , my lord ? mr. att. gen. no i hope not . lo. ch . just . whether they are material or not material , if we should judge them not material for his defence , yet it will look like an hard point upon the prisoner , and to deliver them into an hand that they may be carried away or stifled , in case there were a crime in the delivering of them that would not do well on the other side : therefore i would have these papers put into some safe hands , that what may be for the prisoners use he may not want , and yet they may not be taken away , if there be occasion to use them upon another account . mr. att. gen. but if it please your lordship , i desire you would enter into examination of this matter ; for i have an account from london by a special messenger that there are several persons that go up and down to procure witnesses against the kings evidence , making it a publick cause ; and here my lord , another paper which is a list of men as witnesses picked up together against the kings witnesses . lo. ch . just . he must have that , deliver him that presently . mr. attorn . gen. but my lord , others have gone about and framed witnesses for him . l. ch. just . you must give him a list of his witnesses , for i see not what use you can make of it . mr. serj. jeff. this no man will oppose sure , if any thing that is delivered to him be fit to be delivered , the person that delivers it must come and own it ; but before any person delivers any papers to the prisoner , for him to make use of against the kings evidence , we desire to know what those papers mean , and who gave them . lo. ch. just . look you brother , we will have nothing of heat till the tryal be over , when that is over if there be any thing that requires our examination it will be proper for us to enter into the consideration of it . but in the mean while what hurt is there , if the papers be put into some trusty hands , that the prisoner may make the best use of them he can , and yet they remain ready to be produced upon occasion , if a man be speaking for his life , though he speak that which is not material , or nothing to the purpose , that will be no harm to permit that . mr. serj. jefferies . with submission my lord , that is assigning him counsel with a witness . mr. att. gen. if people are permitted to go up and down and ask counsel of persons and bring it in papers to the prisoner , 't is the same thing as if counsel came to him . here is a busie solicitor and he gets advice from councel and then he delivers it to the prisoner , 't is the first of the kind certainly that ever was allowed ; and if this be not to assign him counsel , i know not what is . lo. ch. just . what think you of our perusing the papers ? mr. att. gen. with all my heart my lord. colledge . if you take away all helps from me , you had as good condemn me without a tryal . mr. att. gen. you ought not to have helps to plead dilatories . colledge . not to help me to my right in law ? mr. att. gen. we are to go upon the fact now : and , my lord , i pray your jugdment about them , when you have perused them . then the judges looked upon that paper that was called the speech . l. c. j. we have read enough of this to suppress it , and to examine it how this came to his hands . mr. just . jones . where is aaron smith ? mr. att. gen. my lord , here is another that is worse than that , charging the justice of the nation . pray call mr. aaron smith , and mr. henry starkey . mr. smith appeared . mr. att. gen. mr. smith , did you deliver these two papers to the prisoner ? mr. smith . does any body accuse me that i did ? mr. att. gen. you are accused for it . mr. smith . i desire proof may be made against me . mr. att. gen. that will be done . l. c. j. look you we will not interrupt the tryal with it , mr. smith must be taken into safe custody only to secure him , till we can examine it ; not as charged with any crime , but only that he may be forth-coming to be examined . mr. att. gen. you do not make a direct answer mr. smith in the case , it will be proved upon you . mr. smith . mr. attorney , i know not what answer to make better than i have given ; our law says no man is bound to accuse himself . mr. att. gen. but our law says , you shall be examined . mr. smith . i come to give no informations here mr. attorney : if i did i should be then examined . mr. att. gen. here are instructions given to the prisoner , they say you gave them . mr. smith . i desire to have it proved . l. c. j. mr. attorney , you will take a recognizance of mr. smith , to be , forth-coming during this sessions . mr. smith . i will not depart my lord i assure you : and i hope mr. attorney will take my word . mr. att. gen. indeed i will not mr. smith , because you have broken it with me already , when i gave you leave to go to the prison , i did not think you would have abused that kindness , to give him papers . lo. ch . just . well take his recognizance . mr. smith . 't is high time to have a care , when our lives and estates , and all are beset here . l. c. j. what do you mean by that mr. smith ? mr. smith . i said it not , meaning by it the court , for i dealare jabhor that expression to be so interpreted , that i reflected upon the court. l. c. j. why do you use such loose expressions then mr. smith ? mr. smith . because i have been threatned since i came to town , though i have not spoke one word in any publik company since i came . mr. just . jones . it seems you will reflect here in the face of the court , and in the face of the countrey , upon the government , upon the justice of the kingdom . mr. smith . no , my lord , i have told you what i meant by it ; i neither reflected upon the court , nor upon the government , nor upon the justice of the kingdom . lo. ch . just . you should have done well to have forborn such expressions as those were . colledge . shall i not have the use of the papers , my lord ; will you not please to deliver them back to me , now you have perused them ? mr. just . jones . one of them is a speech , and a most seditious , libellous speech , to spit venom upon the government in the face of the countrey . we cannot tell who made it , but it seems to be beyond your capacity , and therefore we must enquire into it : but we do not think fit to let you have the use of that paper . l. ch . just . for that which contains the names of the witnesses , that you have again : for the other matters , the instructions in point of law , if they had been written in the first person , in your own name , that we might believe it was your writing , it would have been something ; but when it is written in the second person , you should do so and so ; by which it appears to be written by another person : it is an ill president to permit such things ; that were to give you councel in an indirect way , which the law gives you not directly . coll. if i am ignorant what questions to ask of the witnesses , shall not my friends help me , my lord ? lo. ch. just . we will sift out the truth as well as we can , you need not fear it . coll. some of those things i took out of the books my self . and if you are resolved to take away all my helps , i cannot help it , i know not that mr. smith wrote one of those papers . mr. att. gen. but mr. smith would have given four guineys it seems , as a bribe to the gaoler , and he offered four more to let him have liberty to come to him . mr. s. jeff. 't is time indeed for mr. smith to have a care . keeper . it was mr. starkey that offered me the four guineys . mr. att. gen. pray call mr. henry starkey . ( but he did not appear . ) then the court took a recognizance of l . of mr. smith to attend the court durying the session . coll. pray , my lord , let me have my papers delivered to me , i cannot make my defence else . lo. ch. just . we are your councel in matter of fact ; and to give you your papers , were to assign you councel against law , they being not your own papers , but coming from a third hand . colledge . will you please to give me the paper that has the questions in it , to ask the witnesses ? l. c. j. there are no papers with any particular questions to any one witness , but only instructions how to carry your self in this case . coll. a great deal of it is my own , my lord. l. c. j. mr. attorney , truly i think that that do's not contain matter of scandal may be transcribed and given to the prisoner . coll. my lord , i desire i may have that that has in the margent of its the case of lilburn and stafford . mr. just . jones . you shall not have instructions to scandalize the government , all that is necessary for your defence , you shall have . l. c. j. if he had writ it himself i cannot well see how you could take it from him , and truly as 't is , i had rather let him have too much , then too little . coll. my lord , i thought i might have had counsel to have assisted me , but if i may have counsel neither before my plea nor after , i that an ignorant , may be lost by it , but can't help it . l. c. j. if matter of law arise you shall have counsel in it . coll. i know not but it might have admitted of an argument , that which if i had had my papers , i should have offered to you . l. c. j. mr. colledge , we shall not go any farther now , i know not how many witnesses will be produced either of one side or another , but 't is too late to go on this morning , and because we attend here only upon this occasion , we shall go on with the tryal at two a clock in the afternoon . coll. my lord , you will be pleased to order the papers for me to peruse in the mean time . l. c. j. we have ordered that you shall have a transcript of the paper of instructions , leaving out that which is scandalous . coll. i desire i may have a copy of the whole . mr. just . jones . no , we do not think fit to do that . coll. pray let me know which you do except against . l. c. j. look you mr. attorney , i think we may let him have a copy of the whole . mr. att. gen. my lord , before you rise , i desire , you would please to take the examination of mr. gregory , about mr. starkey . l. c. j. sweatr him . ( which was done . ) mr. att. gen. what do you know concerning mr. starkey , and what he did offer you ? gregory . when they came , by your lordships permission , to mr. colledge , they brought some papers which they delivered to him : and afterwards mr. starkey took me aside , and told me it was hard usage that the prisoner could not have his councel permitted to come to him . do him what favour you can , and i shall not be ungrateful ; so he clapped four guineys in my hand , but i immediately laid them down upon the table , and would not take them . mr. att. gen. my lord , i desire you would please to send for mr. starkey ? l. c. j. let him be sent for . cl. of cr . you must go and take up mr. starkey . messenger . must i keep him in custody ? i don't know him . cl. of cr . no , you must order him from the court to attend here . mr. just . jones . these papers colledge shall not be debarr'd of , for his defence , nor you , mr. attorney , from prosecuting upon them . l. c. j. no , we will put them into such hands as shall take care about that . coll. very few , my lord , have appeared to do me any kindness , some have been frightned and imprisoned , others are now in trouble for it . lo. ch. just . well , you shall have the use of your papers . coll. may i have any friends come to see me in the mean time ? l. c. j. they must not come to you in the prison to give you advice ; but i 'll tell you , since you move it , if my brothers think it convenient , whilst the court does withdraw , any body of your friends may come to you , in the presence of your keeper . mr. just . jones . certainly you cannot think we can give a priviledge to any friend of yours to commit any demeanor to offer bribes to any person . coll. i know not of any such thing . mr. just . jones . we do not charge you with it , but mr. starkey did . coll. i have been kept a strict close prisoner , and if my friends are so kind to me , as to help me in order to my defence , i hope you will not be against it . pray , my lord , let me have my papers . l. c. j. you shall have them , but they shall be put into such hands as the court may have command over ; they shall be in the sheriffs sons hands , and you shall have the immediate use of them . coll. if there be any thing else in those papers necessary for my defence , i pray i may have it . l. c. j. the speech is not fit for you , what other papers would you have ? coll. another paper there is , that is something of law. mr. just . jones . nothing but libellous , and what is a scandal to the government . mr. att. gen. you are to have nothing of matter of law , but what you are to propose your self . coll. if you take away all my helps , i cannot propose any thing . mr. serj. jeff. to allow you those papers , is to allow you councel by a side wind. l. c. j. look you , the papers of instructions shall be delivered to the sheriffs son , who shall let you peruse it in this interval , and make use of it in your tryal , but it must be in safe custody , to be used upon further occasion , as the kings attorney shall think fit . then the court adjourn'd till in the afternoon . post meridiem . at a clock the court returned , and proclamation was made for attendance , and for the under-sheriff to return his jury . coll. my lord , ought not i to have a copy of this jury ? l. ch. just . no , they are to look upon you as they come to be sworn , and then you are to challenge them . cl. of cr . stephen colledge , hold up thy hand , and hearken to the court ; those good men that you shall hear called , and personally appear , are to pass , &c. colledge . pray sir let the way be clear , that i may see them . cl. of cr . ay , ay. coll. pray , sir , how many are there of the jury that appear ? mr. att. gen. there are enough . cl. of cr . make proclamation for information , ( which was done . ) cl. of cr . henry standard , ( who was sworn , ) richard croke , ( who was challenged by the prisoner , ) william bigg ( challenged . ) mr. just . jones . do you challenge him peremptorily , or with cause ? l. c. j. if he do not shew cause , it must be supposed it is peremptory . colledge . i suppose he was upon the grand-jury . l. c. j. that would be a challenge with cause . mr. bigg , no , i was not . coll. then i do not challenge him ; i know him not . he was sworn . cl. of cr. thomas marsh , challenged . thomas martin , did not appear . gabriel merry , being almost a hundred years of age , was excused . robert bird , sworn . john shorter , sworn . william windlow , sworn . edward ayres , challenged . william ayres . challenged . and richard ayres , challenged . charles hobbs , sworn . roger browne , sworn . timothy doyley , sworn . richard dutton , challenged . ralph wallis , sworn . john nash , challenged . john benson , sworn . john piercy , sworn . william we●● , challenged . and john lawrence , sworn . then they were counted , and their names in order , thus . henry standard william bigg robert bird john shorter william windlow charles hobbs roger browne timothy doyley ralph wallis john benson john piercy john lawrence l. c. j. mr. sheriff , there are a great many of the jury that are not sworn , they are discharged , let them go out of the court , and so you will make room for the witnesses . cl. of cr . gentlemen , you of the jury , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his charge . he stands indicted by the name of stephen colledge , late of oxford , in the county of oxford , carpenter ; for that he as a false traytor , &c. proved in the indictment , mutatis mutandis , and upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , &c. mr. north. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen that are sworn , this is an indictment against stephen colledge , the prisoner at the bar , for an endeavour to raise a rebellion within this kingdom wherein he is accused , and the jury find that he as a false traytor against the kings majesty , contrary to the duty of his allegiance , on the th . of march , in the d . year of the kings reign , at oxon. here did trayterously conspire , and compass the death of the king , and the subversion of the government , and to raise a rebellion in the kingdom , and to slaughter his majesties subjects , to put the king to death , to levy war against him ▪ and to deprive him of his royal state and government , and to alter the government at his own will and pleasure ; and to accomplish this , he did at oxon. here prepare arms for the carrying on the war , and excited one edward turbervile and others , to arm themselves against the accomplishment of this design , and did declare his purpose was to seise the kings person at oxon. and that he was one of those that was to do it ; and to bring the said turbervile and other subjects to his purpose , did falsly , maliciously , and traiterously declare in their hearing , that there was no good to be expected from the king , that he minded nothing but the destruction of his people , and arbitrary government , and to introduce popery . and this is laid to be against the duty of his allegiance , against the kings peace , and against the form of the statutes in those cases made and provided . the prisoner you hear upon his arraignment hath pleaded not guilty , which issue you are to try , and if the evidence for the king , which are ready to be produced , prove that which is laid to his charge , you are to find it accordingly . mr. att. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . the prisoner at the bar stands indicted of a very high crime , no less then high treason , and that too of the deepest dye ; it is for an endeavour to destroy the king , to subvert the government , to raise a rebellion amongst the kings subjects . and gentlemen , those instances that we shall give you , and produce our evidence to for the proof of that , are these . he laid his design to seise the king at oxon. and he did not want his accomplices to do it , but they were not men , gentlemen , that were protestants , but men that were rebels in the late war , they were men of such a kidney , that he associated himself with , and these were the persons that were to assist in this attempt . in order to this he had prepared arms in an extraordinary manner , arms of a great value for one of his condition , who is by trade a joyner ; for if a true estimate were taken of the value of the arms ; i believe they were worth twice his whole estate ; he prepared a good horse , extraordinary pistols , a carbine , a coat of maile , an head-piece , and so being armed cap-a-pee , with that design he came hither to oxon. and you will judge whether these be fit tools for a joyner . colledge . i beseech you sir , have you any body to prove this ? if you have not , you do hurt to the jury as well as me , to speak it . lo. ch. just . be patient mr. colledge , and let mr. attorney go on to open the charge . i will tell you and the jury too , that what he says further then he makes good by proof and witnesses , will serve for nothing . coll. 't is hard the counsel should plead against me , and open things that he can't prove . l. ch . just . i will do you all the right imaginable , and therefore i do tell you again , if they do not prove it , all he says is nothing . colledge . but i beseech you my lord , since there hath been such extraordinary means , and methods used to contrive my death , that the witnesses may be examined apart , and far from the hearing one of another . lo. ch. just . that we will take care of by and by . mr. att. gen. mr. colledge . this shews your temper , you are very inordinate in your way of expressing your self . colledge . mr. attorney , i should not interrupt you , if i were not afraid this was spoken to possess the jury . mr. at. g. i hope to prove what i have said , or every word of it shall pass for nothing . coll. 't is impossible for all the men on earth to prove it . mr. att. gen. gentlemen , these were the particulars i was opening to you , in what manner he was armed , and how accoutred he came hither . we shall likewise shew you that he made it his business to perswade others to undertake the design , and joyn with him , and as if open war were already declared ; he gave out a sign , which was a blue ribbon , a wrought ribbon with letters in it , and this was the mark and sign they were to know one another by . this was given out by him frequently ; and that it may not seem an extraordinary thing , gentlemen , though indeed it was a wild atempt , yet you will cease to wonder when you have heard of the exploit of venner , who with a few men raised such a commotion soon after the kings coming in , and the several exploits that have of late in scotland been carried on by a few discontented persons . so that men of the like principles , as we shall give you an account of this gentlemans principles what they were , may well be thought to ingage in such an extraordinary exploit . and we shall prove what the incouragement was he was to have ; for he boasted of himself , that he should be in a little time a collonel . colledge . what , sir ? mr. att. gen. a collonel , a great preferment for a joyner . colledge . yes , it was so . mr. att. gen. we shall shew to you that this was not a sudden unpremeditated thing : for we shall prove that he had entertained the horridst malice against the king that ever subject entertained against his sovereign : for we shall give this evidence , and his front will not oppose it , that he had made it his common discourse in coffee-houses , and publick houses , ( and i believe i could bring you and witnesses to it ) to defame the king , and murder him in his reputation , and was one of the complices with fitz harris , who lately was executed for that venomous libel : we shall prove that he justified it , and maintained it to be as true as the gospel . we shall give evidence that he carried on the same design with that arch-traytor who was a papist ; and i believe if this gentleman were examined throughly , he would be found to be one of the same stamp , and acted by the same principle ; for i think that no protestant subject would attempt such things as we shall prove to you . i believe , gentlemen , you have frequently heard , as none of us but have , that the king hath been traduced as a designer of arbitrary government , and his reputation blasted maliciously , and falsly , as an introducer of popery : whence comes all this generally , but out of the popish quiver , who make it their business to set the kings good subjects at variance amongst themselves ; and against their prince , by styling the king a papist , as this person hath done ; nay , he hath been so impudent as to report that the king was in the plot against his own life . we shall prove to you , how here and at other places he hath frequently done this . to go further , we shall produce to you the evidence that he drew the king's picture , and exposed him in all the reproachful characters imaginable ; and that the picture might be the better understood , he adds a ballad to it : and that he may not have the confidence to say this is not true , we shall produce to you a whole bundle of these papers , among those which his son made a discovery of , when they were sent to his uncle to be hid , and we shall prove him to be the author of them ; and yet that this man should have the confidence to say he is a good subject and a good protestant , when by all ways imaginable he goes about to ruin the government , and defame the king ! and gentlemen when we have given you this account by witnesses , for i would have you believe me in nothing , but according as i prove it , you will not wonder then that he should say his life is in danger , ( for so it is indeed . ) and if any man ever was guilty of high treason , sure he is , and being guilty of the greatest treason , he deserves the severest punishment . colledge . pray gentlemen of the jury , take mr. attorney at his word , and remember sir , you desire not to be believed your self , but what you prove . mr. ser. holloway . may it please your lordship , and gentlemen , pursuant to what mr. attorney hath opened , we will call our witnesses , and we will begin with mr. dugdale , who was a witness against my lord stafford , at his tryal in parliament , whose credit mr. colledge did attest at that tryal , asserting him to be an honest good man , and i believe his evidence will go in a great measure thro●●l that mr. attorn . hath opened , & when we have done with him , we hope to second him with other witnesses of as good credit , and that will say as much to the purpose . then mr. dugdale was sworn . mr. att. gen. mr. dugdale , look upon the prisoner , and tell the court whether you know him . mr. dugdale . yes , i do know him sir. mr. att. gen. will you give us an account of your knowledge of him ? colledge . my lord , i humbly desire they may be examined apart , and not in the hearing one of another . mr. att. gen. that with submission ought not to be in the kings case , though we think there are none of them , that will speak any more then the truth . colledge . here are several of them my lord , they are all of a gang . mr. serj. jefferies . not of your gang , mr. colledge . colledge . i pray they may go out my lord. ( which was done accordingly . ) mr. dugd. if your lordships please , whether or no i may deliver in these papers ? mr. at. g. by & by , time enough when we ask for them , speak your own knowledg . mr. dugd. my lord , i have been i think acquainted with mr. colledge years or thereabouts . i have been several times in mr. colledges company , and truly sometimes he hath been mightily bent against popery ; he hath at sometimes uttered himself , because the king did not prosecute the papists according as he thought sufficiently , that the king was a papist himself , that he was as deep in the plot as any papist of them all , that he had an hand in sir edmondbury godfry's death . this mr. colledge i appeal to your self , whether you have not said it : and in this town of oxford you have several times told me that nothing was to be expected from him , he would no nothing . mr. just levinz . who did tell you so ? mr. dugdale . mr. colledge did tell me that there was nothing to be expected from the king , but the introducing of popery and arbitrary government , this i belive mr. colledge will acknowledge to be true . coll. where was this spoken ? mr. dugd. this was spoken at a coffee-house , called combe's coffee-house in this town , and at the angel-inn in this town at a barbers shop ; that day the king went out of town , we were in the same shop . coll. who was there besides ? mr. ser. jeff. do not interrupt our witnesses , let us have done with him , and you shall have time to ask him questions after . l. c. j. for your instruction , i will tell you , your time is not yet come , if you chop in , and interrupt the witnesses , you will disturb any man living ; but your way is this , when he hath delivered his testimony , ask him any questions then , and he shall be bound to answer you , and in the mean time you shall have pen , ink and paper , to help your memory . mr. dugd. that day the king went out of town , presently after he went , you and i went into the angel-inn : and we went into the barbers-shop that is just within the inn , and being charging your pistols there , you said rowley was gone , the rogue was afraid of himself , he was shirked away , and here i appeal to your own conscience , whether you did not speak it ? coll. i know nothing of it . mr. att. gen. don't appeal to him , 't is nothing for that . mt. sol. gen. who did he mean by rowley ? mr. dugd. the king. mr. serj. holloway . was that his common application for the king ? mr. dugd. it was his common word concerning the king. and at other times speaking that the king did not do those things that were fair , he hath given mighty great words against him : he hath told me that there was no trust to be put in him ; for it was the people we must trust to , and we must look to arm our selves , and that he would arm himself , and be here at oxford , and he told me here in the town accordingly , when i came out of the countrey , and he said that he had several stout men that would stand by him in it . their intention was , as he said , for the rooting out of popery , by which name he always termed the church that is now established by law , as to be of the same nature the papists were . this i believe mr. colledge will acknowledge . mr. att. gen. well , go on sir. mr. dugd. and at a time when he had dr. tongue at his house , he told me , that as for dr. tongue , he had much ado with him , and he had been at a great charge to keep him in order , that he was forced to neglect his own business to look after him ; for if he had not done so , the rogue , as he said , had a mind to fling all upon the protestants , that is , the dissenters ; for he does not count the church of england to be so ; that he had much ado to keep him in order ; for he had said he had drawn papers to that purpose , but those papers are secured ; for where they are , i can't tell . mr. att. gen. who were they that were to be with him in that design of his ? mr. dugd. he told me captain chinton , captain browne , and one dr. lewes , and he brought them into town here , when he came with him . mr. att. gen. to what purpose did he bring them ? mr. dugd. expecting there would be a rising . mr. jones . did he tell you that here ? mr. dugdale . yes , the friday , i think it was , after the parliament first sat . mr. jones . how did he express himself ? what they had to do . mr. dugdale . they were to be here , in case there were any rising , which he expected . mr. jones . what use did he say he would make of them ? mr. dugd. for the defence of the protestant religion , against the king and all his adherents . mr. jones . what did he say he would do to the king ? i would not lead you . mr. dugd. he did not say what particularly . mr. jones . what did he say if the king did not yield to the parliament ? mr. dugdale . if the king did not yield to the parliament , he should be forced to it . mr. jones . where did you hear him say that ? mr. dugdale . at oxford . mr. serj. holloway . did you hear him declare this at london ? mr. dugd. he did say at london , he expected there would be something done at oxford , and that he would go thither with his horse and arms , and those gentlemen i named before would go with him . and he said , let them begin when they would , he did not care how soon , his party was the greatest party . mr. att. gen. what was that capt. brown ? did you know him ? mr. dugd. yes , i knew him very well ; he did much frequent mr. colledge's company ; he was in the late army against the king. mr. serj. jeff. did you see him have any pistols ? mr. dugd. yes , i have seen him carry pistols about him . mr. serj. jeff. where , in his pocket ? mr. dugd. i saw them in the house . mr. serj. jeff. at oxford ? mr. dugd. yes . mr. serj. hollaway . did you see them in his hand ? mr. dugd. i cannot tell that , he had them in the house , i saw them there . mr. serj. hollaway . did you see him in his silk armour about the parliament-house , the lobby , or any place ? mr. dugd. i cannot say that . mr. att. gen. what did you know of his delivering any marks or signs for persons to be distinguished by ? mr. dugd. i had as much ribbon from him as came to forty shillings , with no popery , no slavery wrought in it ; and he gave it me to distribute among my friends in the countrey , that they might be known by other persons that would wear the same . mr. jones . where had you it ? mr. dugd. at london , from mr. colledge . mr. jones . where was it to be distributed ? mr. dugd. among those that i knew to be dissenters in the countrey . mr. jones . were you to come to oxford ; by agreement , with mr . colledge ? mr. dugd. i promised him to come to oxford , and did so . mr. attorn . gen. well , go on , what more do you know ? mr. dugdale . at london i was once at a coffee-house with mr. colledge , and with some of the members of the house of commons ; it was a little before they met ; and they were earnestly talking of the parliament at oxford ; and of some disturbance that was likely to happen here . and it was then fully agreed , and mr. colledg was by , that it would be the best way , out of every county , where the parliament had the best interest in the people , to leave one in every county that might manage the people . this i appeal to mr. colledge whether it be true . colledge . you appeal to me . shall i speak now , my lord ? mr. jones . no , you will remember it by and by . mr. att. gen. what do you know of any pictures ? mr. sol. gen. pray let him speak that over again which he mentioned last . mr. dugd. being in a coffee-house with mr. colledge , there were some of the members of the house of commons by ; and speaking of a disturbance that might happen here at oxford ; it was then agreed , that in every quarter where the parliament had the most interest in the people , they should not all come up , but some remain there to manage the people . mr. att. gen. what do you know of any pictures or papers , have you any about you : mr. dugdale . yes , i have one thing i have received from mr. colledge , that is , the letter pretended to be intercepted to roger l'estrange . mr. att. gen. pray , what account did he give you of it ? who made it ? mr. dugd. he told me he was the author of it himself , and he shewed me it in manuscript before it was printed ; and he told me , he got one curtis or his wife to print it ; but he would never trust them again , for they cheated him of some of the gain . mr. att. gen. who was the author did he say ? mr. dugdale . he himself . mr. att. gen. pray produce it sir. mr. dugdale . this and others he delivered to me to disperse . lo. ch. just . what is it mr . attorney ? mr. att. gen. it is a letter , and a great part of fitz-harris's libel is taken out ; it seems colledge was the author , and this is the original of the libel . lo. ch . just . did he tell you this was of his making ? mr. dugd. yes . mr. att. gen. did he disperse them to any body else ? mr. dugdale . yes , there were some given to one mr. boson , he had some at the same time , and mr. baldwin had some . then the paper was read . cl. of cr . first q. whether they that talk — mr. att. gen. pray give my lord an account what more papers and libels he delivered to you . mr. dugd. i received one like this , i cannot say it was the same , where all the bishops were changing their hats for cardinal caps . mr. serj. jeff. where is rary shew ; for it seems he hath expounded the meaning of that . ( then it was produced . ) mr. serj. jeff. i suppose 't is his own cutting too . mr. dugd. i heard mr. colledge sing it . mr. serj. jeff. where ? mr. dugd. in oxfordshire , and in oxford town , at my lord lovelace's . mr. serj. jeff. where at my lord lovelace's ? mr. dugd. at his house in the countrey . mr. serj. jeff. who were in the company there ? mr. dugd. sir robert clayton , sir thomas player , mr. rouse , mr. colledge . mr. serj. jeff. you say you heard him in oxford , and in oxfordshire , and at my lord lovelace's , where is that ? l. c. j. my lord. lovelace is here himself , and hears what he says . mr. dugd. i might mistake the county , but i heard him sing it at oxford town , and at my lord lovelace's house again . l. c. j. where is that ? mr. dugd. i cannot tell the town . mr. ser. jeff. how came you there ? mr. dugd. sir thomas player did invite me thither . mr. ser. jeff. where is it in oxfordshire ? mr. dugd. i cannot tell , 't is four miles from henly . mr. ser. jeff. was my lord at home ? mr. dugd. yes , he was . mr. ser. jeff. now for the cut then ; did he shew you this cut ? mr. dugd. yes , he told me he would get it printed . mr. ser. jeff. was it before it was printed then that he sung it ? mr. dugd. yes , it was . mr. ser. jeff. who did he tell you did make it ? mr. dugd. he told me he was the author of this cut , and he gave me one , and we sang it together presently after it was printed . mr. att. gen. how did he describe it to you , when he shewed it to you ? mr. dugd. that which hath the pack on the back of it , he described to be the king ; those that follow him were topham , cooper , hughs , and snow ; and that company of men there is the house of commons . mr. ser. holloway . what was meant by the pack ? mr. dugd. the parliament and all his retinue ; and then here is the king in the mire again , according as 't is represented in the long — mr. ser. jeff. ay , he goes on well . and this here is the bishops which they thrust into the pack when they have got him down into the mire , and then they thrust them all away , as it is in the song , to hoot them away . l. c. j. did he make this explication to you ? mr. dugd. yes . mr. serj. jeff. who were the all ? mr. dugdale . king and clergy-men and all . mr. serj. jefferies . where was this he explained it ? mr. dugd. at london . mr. ser. holloway . is there any thing relating to white-hall ? what name did he give that ? mr. dugd. yes , he said , louse-hall was white-hall , because of its poverty . then the ballad was read . cl. of cr . rarp shew . to the tune of , i am a sensless thing — mr. att. gen. this shews you what sort of man he is . mr. serj. jeff. here you say he explained this with the pack at the back to be the king ? mr. dugd. yes , he told me so . mr. ser. jeff. what did he mean by the two faces ? mr. dugd. that he was half protestant , and half papist . mr. jones . did he make any comparison between his own party and the kings party ? mr. dugd. he said they were but an handful to them . mr. jones . to whom ? mr. dugd. to his party , that was the dissenters . mr. att. gen. speak that out . mr. dugd. that their party was but a handful to theirs . mr. att. gen. theirs and theirs , who did he mean ? mr. dugd. he meant the dissenters , for the church of england he reckoned among the papists . l. c. j. tell us the words he said . mr. dugd. he said , his party was the true church of england , and that which is established by law , were but protestants in masquerade . mr. jones . tell us when he made the comparison , what words he did use , and upon what occasion . mr. dugd. when he perceived the king at oxford would not yield to the house of commons , he said , let him begin as soon as he would , he did not care how soon he did begin , for their party ▪ meaning the king and his party , was but an handful to him and his party , calling them the true protestants , the others were protestants in masquerade . mr. att. gen. what did he desire you to do , to be assisting in any thing ? mr. dugd. he always desired me to be true of that side , he hoped i was , and to get good arms for my self . mr. serj. holloway . did he in oxford desire this of you ? mr. dugd. no he did not . mr. sol. gen. for what purpose did he desire you to arm your self ? mr. dugd. he said the king had a design on the people to introduce popery and arbitrary government , and he expected every day when they would begin , and the sooner the better , he would be provided for them . mr. jones . was that in oxford ? mr. dugd. he spoke it in oxford , and in the city too . mr. jones . did he tell you of any that were listed ? mr. dugd. he spoke of capt. brown , and capt. clinton , and don lewes , and abundance more he said he had . mr. jones . did he tell you he had them here ? mr. dugd. yes , about forty of them were there he said . mr. serj. holloway . did he tell you of any that were listed , in order to the coming down of the parliament at oxford ? mr. dugd. not listed , but were intended to come down ; and at oxford he told me they were come down . mr. just . jones . were you in their company in oxford here ? mr. dugd. yes , i was . mr. just . jones . in the company of whom ? name them . mr. dugd. of capt. brown , don lewes , and several others of that gang ; i know not their names , but i know their faces . mr. sol. gen. did he take notice to you that they were come down . mr. dugd. yes . mr. sol. gen. to what purpose ? mr. dugd. he expected there would be a rising in oxford , and to this purpose . mr. colledge was one that debated it at richard's coffee-house , and it was to be carried from thence to the kings-head club , whether it were not best to leave a parliament man in every county ? mr. att. gen. where was this ? mr. dugdale . this was at richard's coffee-house in london , against they met here . mr. att. gen. we could give you an account of a volume of these things , abundance of scandalous pamphlets , both songs , libels , and ballads , that were made by this gentleman , and all seized in his custody . mr. jones . but he sung this libel ? mr. attorn . gen. all these , gentlemen , ( shewing a great bundle ) were to be dispersed over england . mr. serj. jeff. it was , it seems , expounded and sung by the prisoner at the bar ; he gave you the ballad here at oxford , you say , mr. dugdale . mr. dugd. no , i heard him sing it here . mr. jones . pray , mr. dugdale , what was the use was to be made of this ballad ? mr. att. gen. come , go to the next , we call this evidence to shew you the malice of the man. colledge . pray , my lord , let me ask some questions of mr. dugdale ? mr. ser. jeff. ay , now let the prisoner ask his questions ( to do him right ) before we go to another witness . mr. dugd. my lord , i have a word or two more about a libel in manuscript ; that very day the sheriffs were to be chosen , it was to be printed , and he told me the printer dust not print it , it was so dangerous . mr. serj. jeff. what was it , can you remember any part of it ? mr. dugdale . no , but it was the worst i ever heard in my life , against the king and government . lo. ch . just . now ask him what questions you will. coll. pray , when was the first time you gave this evidence ? mr. dugdale . truly , mr. colledge , i don't keep an account of time , i cannot give an account of time . mr. att. gen. as near as you can , tell him . mr. dugdale . i cannot tell whether it might be in june , i think it was . colledge . how long before i was taken ? mr. dugdale . it might be about the time you were taken . colledge . pray , who did you give it before ? mr. dugd. i gave it to sir lionel jenkins . colledge . where did you swear these particulars were done then ? mr. dugd. what was done in the city , i swore to be done there . colledge . what city ? mr. dugd. london ; the same words were said in the city of london , and over again here . i have repeated , for the most part , only the words you said here , but more was in the city than here . colledge . did you swear then , that the words you swear now were spoken at london ? mr. dugdale . it may be we might not name oxford then . mr. ser. jeff. he says well ; it might not be named then . colledge . then you did give in your information , that i spoke these words at oxford ? mr. dugd. i was not examined about what was done at oxford ; but i believe i have heard you speak the same words to me at my lord lovelace's , but i do not know what county that is in . colledge . i ask you positively , whether you did not swear that what you now say was spoken at oxford , was spoken at london . mr. dugd. i did not name oxford then . colledge . but did not you say that was done at london , that now you say was done here . mr. dugd. truly , you said them both at london , and here . colledge . pray , mr. dugdale , what had you to give this your information ? mr. dugdale . truly i can't say i have received the worth of a groat . colledge . nor was ever promised any thing ? mr. dugd. no , i never received any thing , nor ever was promised , but only what the king gave me for going down into the countrey for my charges . mr. att. gen. was that the same allowance you had when you were witness for the popish plot ? mr. dugd. yes . mr. ser. jeff. have you any other allowance than what you had before , when you gave evidence at my lord stafford's tryal ? mr. dugd. no , nor have got all that yet neither . coll. but pray observe my question , mr. dugdale , and answer it : did you not swear at london that i spoke these words there , which now you say i spoke here . l. c. j. pray observe , he says he did not then name oxford ; but in the giving of his evidence now , he tells you a series of what passed between london and oxford ; and i must tell you further , if a treason be committed , and the evidence prove it to be in two countries , the king may choose which county he will prosecute and bring his indictment in , and give in evidence the facts in both counties . but you shall have your objection to it afterwards , and we will take it into consideration . i tell you this , that it may not seem to you that the witnesses speak impertinently of what was done at london ; but if nothing was done or said at oxford , then it will be taken into consideration , you shall have it saved afterwards , i only him it now , that you may not think it impertinent . coll. i beseech your lordship give me leave to speak one word ; when he made his affidavit before sir lionel jenkins there about seizing the king , about the party i had , and the arms i had provided , ought not he at the same time to have said where i said those words to him ? but he did swear then it was in london that i said those words to him ; and coming before a grand jury of honest gentlemen in london , they were so wise and honest as to do me justice , and not find the bill ; so their design failing there , then they changed it to oxford . l. c. j. you did not come to your tryal there , if you had so done , then they would have asked him in particular what was said at oxford , and what at london , as 't is now , being done in both counties . but look you , if you will ask any particular questions , do , for they have other witnesses to produce . coll. my lord , i only ask this question , whether it be not rational to think , that when he swore before sir lionel jenkins , he should not swear the words were spoken , and things done ? mr. dugd. he hath said the same words to me at my lord lovelace's , as i lay in bed with him , and this i never mentioned but now in my evidence . coll. what words did i say there ? mr. dugd. if you must have them repeated , they were about the king. coll. what were they ? mr. dugd. that he was a papist , and designed arbitrary government . coll. did i say so to you at my lord lovelace's ? mr. dugd. yes , as we lay a bed. mr. sol. gen. did you lye together ? mr. ser. jeff. yes , yes , they were intimates . colledge . i had not six words with you when you went to bed ; for you said you were weary , and went asleep presently . mr. dugd. i say you said this in the morning ; for we had above an hours discourse when we were a bed , and all our discourse was about the parliament and the king. coll. where was it i said those words in oxford ? mr. dugd. at combe's coffe-house was one place . coll. was there no body by ? mr. dugd. no , but at the angel-inn there were several persons standing by . coll. surely then some of those heard the words as well as you . mr. dugd. it may be so , i am sure many at london have been by , as mr. starkey by name , mr. boson , mr. baldwin ? they have rebuked you for it , and i have rebuked you too . coll. what words have they and you heard , and rebuked me for ? mr. dugd. when you have been railing against the king , and said , that he designed nothing but the introducing of popery , and arbitrary government , and that he was a papist . mr. ser. jeff. he loves to hear it repeated . coll. what arms did you see of mine in this town ? mr. dugd. i saw pistols ; you had a case of pistols before you , and you had some pocket-pistols . coll. none but one i borrowed of you , and that you had again ; had i ? pray speak , did you see any more ? mr. dugd. it may be there might not , but there were pocket-pistols in the room , and you had them in your hand . colledge . he swore but now that he saw me have pocket-pistols , when it was but one , and that was his own . mr. serj. jeff. heark you now , you talk of pistols , do you know that he had any pistols in his holsters at oxford . mr. dugd. yes , he had . coll. yes , i know that , i don't deny it . mr. serj. jeff. i think a chissel might have been more proper for a joyner . coll. you say i was confederated with capt. brown , and other men . mr. dugd. you have told me that captain brown had agood allowance , and it was pity he had not a better allowance ; and you would speak he might have a better allowance , for he was able to do good service when the time came . colledge . from whom ? mr. dugd. among you . colledge . among whom ? mr. dugd. you know there were several gatherings among you that i was not privy to . colledge . what do i know ? mr. sol. gen. you know mony was gathered many times . colledge . for what purpose ? mr. dugd. you never told me particulars ; it was to distribute some where , i had none of it . l. c. j. he does not say these men were concerned with you , but you said so . mr. dugd. you know , mr. colledge ▪ there were many gathering of monies . coll. did i tell you there were any gatherings for capt. brown ? mr. serj. jeff. he says you told him no particulars ; if you have a mind to ask him any more questions , do . coll. pray , sir george , don't interrupt me , i am here for my life . did i tell you there were any gatherings for capt. brown ? mr. dugd. i do not say for him , nor whom you distributed it to ; but you gathered mony one among another , and you have paid mony . colledge . i have paid mony ! when , and to whom ? mr. att. gen. you will not deny that , you confessed upon your examination that you gave a guinny . coll. sir , did you see me any more at oxford , than in the coffee-house , and at that inn , when i went out of town , and was going home with the city-members ? mr. dugd. yes . coll. were you in my company any where , but in those two places ? mr. dugd. yes i was with you at the chequer . coll. did you come a purpose to speak with me , or had you any business particularly with me ? mr. dugd. truly , mr. colledge , i have forgot whether i had or no , i was in the room with you there . colledge . where is that room ? mr. dugd. i can't tell all the rooms in that house . coll. was it above stairs , or below ? mr. dugd. both above and below , two days i was there with you . coll. was there any of this discourse you speak of passed there between us . mr. dugd. i know i was with you in those two places i mentioned before ; you called me aside to drink a glass of mum , and there was none in the room but us two at that coffee-house . coll. sir , you came to town but on friday , i think , it must be saturday , sunday or monday this was , for we stayed no longer in oxford . mr. dugd. nay , i came to oxford , either wednesday night or thursday morning ; and i saw mr. hunt and you together the same day i came . coll. did i explain any pictures to you at london , or owned i was the author of them ? mr. dugd. yes , upon my oath , you have explained pictures to me , and there is one picture that i have not shewed yet , which you have explained what the meaning was . mr. serj. jeff. 't is your common trade it seems . mr. dugd. you told me you got them done . clerk reads , a character of a popish successor , &c. mr. ser. holloway . how did he explain it to you ▪ mr. dugdale ? mr. serj. jeff. i would see what opinion he had of the church of england ; there are some church-men , what are they a doing ? mr. dugdale . they are a parcel of tantivy-men riding to rome ; and here 's the duke of york , half man , half devil , trumpeting before them . colledge . you have got somebody to explain these things to you , mr. dugdale . mr. dugd. you did it , upon my oath . colledge . oh , fie upon you , mr. dugdale , consider what you say . mr. serj. jefferies . all this you did explain , it seems . mr. dugd. and in one place of the other libel , the king was termed a rogue , but they put him in by another name . mr. ser. jeff. where is it ? mr. dugd. 't is in rary-shew ; in the manuscript it was , now , now the rogue is down . mr. ser. jeff. let me see it , i took notice of it , 't is , now , now the gyant is down , here . coll. i ask you , sir , whether the song which you say was sung at my lord lovelace's , and other places , was the same with this ? mr. dugd. for the general it is , i can't tell for every word : you sang it half a dozen times there , and the musick plaid to you . coll. i ask you whether it was the same with this ? mr. dugd. i can't tell for every word you sang . coll. was there any body by at my explaining of these pictures ? mr. dugd. mr. baldwyn was by , and reproved and corrected you , that you would be so open . coll. was there any body by at oxford , when you did hear me talk of arming my self ? mr. dugd. they were walking up and down in the barbers shop , and i know not whether they did hear or no. mr. att. gen. was that gentleman sworn at my lord stafford's tryal , mr. dugdale ? colledge . yes , i was sworn there , i acknowledge it . mr. att. gen. did he swear any thing on your behalf , for your credit , mr. dugdale ? coll. that was by hear-say , mr. attorney , at the tower : i know nothing of my own knowledge ; but i did believe him another man than i find him . mr. ser. jeff. no question , or else you would not have trusted him . mr. att. gen. swear stevens . ( which was done . ) do you give my lord , and the jury , an account where you found this precious ballad . stevens . the first draught i found in his bed-chamber . mr. ser jeff. what , of all of them ? which is it ? stevens . the rary shew , we found the first draught of it in his house , when we came to search his papers , by order of council , and the printer that printed the ballad , hath told me since , he had it from him — mr. att. gen. what say you your self ? speak your own knowledge . stevens . and mr. atterbury was by when we searched the house . mr. att. gen. well , mr. atterbury will tell his own story . stevens . i have seen you on horseback , with holsters before you , with some hundreds of men after you , coming out of the bell-savage inn ; they said , you were going to choose parliament-men : i have known you three or four years , you were joyner to our hall. mr. ser. jeff. we call you to that particular of the papers , and you run out in a story of a cock and a bull , and i know not what . lo. ch . just . will you ask him any questions ? coll. no , only this ; do you swear , upon your oath , that you found the original in my house ? stevens , yes , sir , you will see it with my hand to it , and some more of them . mr. att. gen. and you found too those that were printed ? stevens . yes , both our names are to them , that were concerned in the searching of them . mr. ser. jeff. you found the paper in the house ? stevens . yes . mr. ser. jeff. that is towzer ; but you have the original of the rary shew ? ( it was looked for , but could not be found . ) coll. pray , gentlemen , observe , he swears that is an original . mr. ser. jeff. no , no , he found the paper in your house . coll. i ask about the original of rary shew . mr. ser. jeff. he says he saw a paper drawn with a pencil that was like the original . atterbury . there was an original drawn with a pencil , upon dutch paper , 't is lost since , for we do not see it here now , which at the same time we found upon colledge's table in his bed-chamber . coll. did you find an original of that in my chamber ? atterbury . yes , we found a paper drawn with black-lead . coll. pray , where is it ? atterbury . i did see it , it was drawn in black-lead , it was upon dutch-paper , and lay upon the table in your chamber . stevens . sure i am it was taken when we searched the house . coll. i am sure you could never find the original of any such thing in my house . mr. att. gen. then where is mr. sewel , ( who was sworn . ) sir , did you see that trumpery taken ? sewell . i had a warrant to seize mr. spur , and his brother-in-law , mr. colledge . so i went down to seize mr. spur , and search his house for such papers as i should find . i could not find them in the house ; but i enquired of him , after i had searched , and could not find them where they were ; because i saw him at mr. colledge's when we first searched ; he denied them a pretty while , but at last he told me they were in the hay-mow in the barn. when i came there , he was balling , and told me his wife , colledge's sister had taken them down , and carried them into a room where i had searched before , but could not find them ; and the man was angry then , so we run after his wife , and found her with all these papers in a bag . mr. att. gen. are these the same papers ? sewell . yes , and there were two other cuts ; the man himself is about the place somewhere . mr. attorn . gen. swear mr. john smith . which was done . mr. jones . come , mr. smith , do you know mr. colledge ? mr. smith . yes . mr. ser. jeff. give us an account what dealings you have had with him , where , and when ; what he hath said about the king ; and tell us first whether you be intimately acquainted ? mr. smith . we were intimately acquainted . the first time i heard mr. colledge discoursing any thing of this nature , that is , concerning treason , or any such thing , was once at a coffee-house by temple-bar ; there i met colledge , and he told me he was invited to dinner , and he likewise invited me to it . i asked him who provided the dinner , he told me it was one alderman vvilcox ; i told him i was a stranger , and did not care for going : he told me i should be very welcome there , and at last prevailed upon me to go : and as i was going along , i asked him what the alderman was ? he told me he was a man that was as true as steel , and a man that would endeavour to root out popery : said i , that may be done easily , if you can but prevail with the king to pass the bill against the d. of york . no , no , said he , you are mistaken , for rowley is as great a papist as the d. of york is ( now he called the king rowley ) and every way as dangerous to the protestant interest , as is too apparent by his arbitrary ruling . this was the discourse between the coffee-house and the tavern where we went to dine . when we came in , i asked colledge again , whether the alderman was there ; he said he was not there at that time : i asked him the second time what kind of man he was , he said he was one that lived in his countrey-house , and gave freely to several people to buy arms and ammunition . and i asked him to what purpose ? and he said it was to bring the king to submission to his people ; adding thereto , that he wondred old rowley did not consider how easily his fathers head came to the block , which he doubted not would be the end of rowley at the last . after this discourse the alderman came in ; we dined , and every one went his own way about his own business . mr. colledge ▪ then told me , if i would go with him to his own house , i should see how he was prepared with arms and provision . soon after i met with him , and he desired me to go along and dine with him ; and i did so , and there he did shew me his pistols , his blunderbuss , his great sword ; and he shewed me his armour , back and breast ; and he shewed me his head-piece , which , if i am not mistaken , was covered over with chamlet , it was a very fine thing ; and , said he , these are the things which will destroy the pitiful guards of rowley , that are kept up contrary to law and justice , to set up arbitrary power and popery . colledge . what did i say , sir , about my armour ? mr. smith . thus you said ; it was to destroy rowley's guards ( those were your words ) that were kept up contrary to law and justice , to set up arbitrary power and popery . after i had dined with him , i parted with him . a little before the parliament was to meet at oxford , i met him again ; and were discoursing of several things , what preparations the city were making , how they were provided with powder and bullets ; and for his part , he would go down to oxford , for he expected a little sport there , upon the divisions that were like to be between the king and parliament . then said i to him , why , what is the matter there ? why , said he , we expect that the king will seize upon some of the members , and we are as ready as he . and , says he , for my part , i will be there , and be one that shall seize him , if he secure any of the members , ( and i believe he did go down ; ) says he , you know how the city is provided : i told him , no , not so well as he ; but he told me all was very well . after he came up again , i met him another time , and he told me , he went down in expectation of some sport ; but old rowley was afraid , like his grand-father jamy , and so ran away like to beshit himself . mr. ser. jeff. did he say , if he had not ran away , he would have seized him ? mr. smith . he said nothing of that , but before , he said , he would be one of them should seize him , if he seized any of the members . after this he told me , that fitz-gerald and he had had a quarrel at the parliament-door of the house of lords at oxford ; that fitz-gerald had called him rogue ; and , said he , fitz-gerald made my nose bleed ; but before long , i hope to see a great deal more blood shed for the cause . after this again , when there was a discourse of disarming the city , that my lord feversham was to come to do it , he told me , he was well provided , and if feversham , or any man , nay rowley himself should attempt any such thing , he would be the death of him , before any man should seize upon his arms. mr. serj. jeff. did he discourse any thing to you about arms to provide your self ? mr. smith . yes , he did , i had an armour from him . mr. ser. jeff. what did he say to you about it ? mr. smith . he did desire me to get arms , for i did not know how soon i might make use of them . i had an armour from him upon trial ; he said it cost him or s. i had it upon trial , but it was too big for me , so i gave it him back , and bought a new one . mr. attorn . gen. did he tell you to what purpose you should arm your self ? mr. smith . no , he did not name any purpose , but he told me i did not know how soon i might make use of it . mr. att. gen. what did he say to you about any one's seizing the king ? mr. smith . he told me the parliament were agreed to secure the king , and that in order to it , all parliament-men came very well armed , and accompanied with arms and men ; and he told me of a great man that had notice from all the gentlemen of england how well they came armed . mr. jones . what did he say of himself ? mr. smith . he would be one that should secure the king , if he seized any of the members . mr. jones . when he had been there , what did he say ? mr. smith . if they had had any work , he was ready provided for them . mr. att. gen. but pray tell us again what he said of the kings running away ? mr. smith . he said rowley was afraid , like his grand-father jumy , and ran away ready to beshit himself . l. c. j. if you have done with him , mr. attorney , let the prisoner ask him what questions he will. colledge . mr. smith , where was this discourse i had with you ? mr. smith . which do you mean , the former part or the latter ? colledge . the first discourse you talk of , what i told you going to mr. wilcox's to dinner , and when it was ? mr. smith . you know best when it was , i can't exactly remember the time , but you know 't is true . colledge . where was it ? mr. smith . as we went along thither we had the first part of it , and when we came thither , you and i talked till alderman wilcox came in ; and you and i were alone together , and several persons that were there , were drawn into cabals , two by two . colledge . where ? mr. smith . in the room where we dined ; and you know there was a little room by , where some were drinking a glass of wine . coll. you say , by two and two the company were drawn into cabals . mr. smith . i tell you most of them were in cabals , two and two together , only those two gentlemen that belonged to the alderman went up and down , and gave wine . coll. what religion are you of ? mr. smith . is it for this man to ask me , my lord , such a question ? lo. ch . just . yes , answer him . mr. smith . i am a protestant . coll. you were a priest . mr. smith . yes , what then ? and i am in orders now . colledge . that was from the church of rome . mr. smith . yes and that is a good ordination : i came in voluntarily to discover the popish plot , and was no pentioner , nor received any sallary from the king. i have spent several pounds , several scores of pounds , but received no recompence . and i was the darling at one time all over the city , when i did adhere to what they would have me to do . mr. ser. jeff. did not you swear against my lord stafford ? mr. att. gen. were not you a witness , mr. smith , at my lord stafford's tryal ? mr. smith . in that case i did give a general account of the design of the papists ; they did not then question my reputation , and i defie all the world to say any thing against it . colledge . pray hear me sir , if you please ; the first discourse that you speak of about mr. wilcox's being a good man for the cause , and contributing mony , this was when we were at dinner . mr. smith . this was that day when we went to dinner with him , you know it very well . coll. where were the other discourses i had with you ? mr. smith . which part of them ? colledge . when i came from oxford . mr. smith . by the ditch side , by your own house ; i have two or three to prove it , we were an hour or two discoursing together about this business . coll. what business ? l. c. j. he tells you of two discourses , one before you went to oxford , and one after you came from thence . coll. he does say , that i discoursed him about our coming down hither to oxford , that the parliament would secure the king , and that i would be one of them that should seize him , and this was at the time when we dined with alderman wilcox . l. c. j. not so , he says after that time , and before you went to oxford , he had such a discourse with you . mr. smith . yes , my lord , so it was . coll. and does he speak of another time when i shewed him the back , breast and arms ? mr. smith . yes . coll. but he said , i discoursed then , that the city was provided with arms , and that the parliament were resolved to bring the king to submission . mr. smith . when i was in the house with him , he then said mr. wilcox gave mony to provide arms : i asked for what ? he said , it was to bring the king to submission to his people ; and then he added , he admired that rowley did not remeber how easily his fathers head came to the block ; and he doubted not but that would be the end of him too . l. c. j. he spake of several times you know . coll. i do not know one word of it , nor can distinguish the times : but , mr. smith the last discourse you say about oxford business , was by the ditch side . mr. ser. jeff. the discourse about bringing the king to submission , was in the way as you went to dinner . mr. smith . the last discourse when you returned from oxford , was by the ditch side ; but both before and after you spake to me at that place about this design of bringing the king to submission . colledge . you said it was at wilcox's at dinner . mr. ser. jeff. you mistook him then . colledge . nay , sir george , you took him not right . mr. ser. jeff. i have taken him right i assure you , and you shall see it by and by . colledge . he is the falsest man that ever spoke with a tongue . mr. att. gen. swear bryan haynes . ( which was done . tell my lord , and the jury , whether you know this gentleman , what converse you have had with him , and what discourse he hath had with you . apply your self to mr. colledges business only . haynes . i suppose he will not deny but that he knows very well ; i have been acquainted with him ever since march last , before the sitting of the parliament at oxford . my lord , there was a warrant against me for high treason ; and i made my application to mr. colledge , and desired him to go to a certain person of honour in england , and ask his advice , whether i might supercede the warrant by putting in bayl , and carry the supercedeas in my pocket : mr. colledge told me he would go to this person of honour , for he would do nothing of his own head ; and he bid me come to him the next day . my lord , i came to mr. colledge the very next day , and i met him at his house , and i asked him what was the result , and what advice he had from that person of quality ; he bid me be of good chear , that the parliament would be , and sit at oxford soon ; that i should not value the king a pin ; for , said he , the king is in a worse condition than you or i ; for you shall see , said he , he shall be called to an account for all his actions . mr. serj. jeff. who should ? haynes . the king ; for all the world may see , says he , that he does resolve to bring in arbitrary power and popery : and , said he , unless he will let the parliament sit at oxford , since he hath called them together , and put the people to charges in chusing of them , and them in coming down , we will seize him at oxford , and bring him to the block , as we did the logger-head his father . the parliament shall sit at guildhall , and adjust the grievances of the subject , and of the nation . and you shall see , said he , that no king of his race shall ever reign in england after him . l. c. j. where was this he said so ? haynes . at his own house i met him ; and he and i did walk all along from his own house , over the bridge that is against bridewel , and so went all along till we came to the hercules-pillars , and we had some discourse there ; we went up one pair of stairs and called for beef ; and all this discourse was in that very place of the hercules-pillars . mr. serj. holloway . do you know any thing of any arms he had , and for what ? haynes . but , sir , said i to mr. colledge , how can this be done , 't is a thing impossible . you pretend , you say , to the duke of monmouth , that he is a fine prince , and stands up for the protestant interest : alas , said he , we make an idol of him to adumbrate our actions , for fear we should be discovered . do you think the wise people of england shall ever make a bastard upon record king of england : no , said he , for though we praise his actions , yet we cannot endure him , because he is against his own father . but , said he , further , unless the king do expel from his council the earl of clarindon , cunning lory hide , the earl of hallifax , that great turn-coat rogue , that was before so much against the papists , a rascal , we shall see him hang'd , and all the tory counsellors ; except the king do it , we will make england too hot for him . coll. who did i say this to , to you ? haynes . yes , to me . coll. pray , how could this be possible ? haynes . yes , you knew my condition ; and i intimated to you at that time , that i was as much for treason and villany as you : but then said i to him , how can this be done ? here you have neither officers , nor men of experience , nor men of knowledge ; nor you have no ammunition , sea-port towns , nor ships . and besides , the king , said i , hath a great party in the land , and the duke of york likewise ; and for all the men of estates , and the ancient gentlemen , they will not be disturbed , and to quit their ease for a civil war. oh , says he , you are mistaken , for we have in the city barrels of powder , and we have men ready at an hours warning ; and we have ordered every thing in a due method against the sitting of the parliament at oxford ; and you shall see england the most glorious nation in the world , when we have cut off that beastly fellow rowley ; and speaking of the king , he said , he came of the race of buggerers , for his grandfather , king james , buggered the old duke of buckingham ; and he called him captain , and sometimes the king , and sometimes rowley . mr. ser. jeff. this was pure protestant discourse upon my word . haynes . then he railed at judge pemberton ; and , said he , let him try fitz-harris if he dare ; i shall see him go to tyburn for it , i hope , a turn-coat rogue . he was for the plot whilst he was a puisne judge , but now he is chief justice , he is the greatest rogue in the world . he is like one of the pensioners in the long parliament . so one day i went along with mrs. fitz-harris , and mr. ivy , and he sent a man to me , and desired me to come to the hog in armor ; thither we came , and met him , and went to his lodgings , and there we dined . then they made some persons of honour believe , that i was a person so and so qualified , and was brim full of the plot ; and he would put me upon charging the king with the firing of london , and the murder of sir edmondbury godfrey , and said he , such and such lords shall live and die by you ; and besides , said he , you need not fear , england shall espouse your cause . but , said i , the law is like the spiders web , that catches the little flies , but the great flies run through the net , and make their escape ; so 't is with these lords , they put you and me on the danger of acting ; and when they get off by interest , a jury of twelve men will hang us by the neck , and so i should perish , whilst others triumphed , and only be a martyr for the phanaticks . so in discourse we were talking of the libel of fitz-harris ; the devil take me , said he , every individual word is as true as god is in heaven ; and said he , if you do not joyn with fitz-harris in his evidence , and charge the king home , you are the basest fellow in the world , for he makes you slaves and beggars , and would make all the world so ; and 't is a kind of charity to charge him home , that we may be rid of such a tyrant . mr. serj. jeff. mr. colledge , if you will ask him any questions , you may . coll. certainly , my lord , the thing speaks it ; he is not to be talked withal ; is it probable i should talk to an irish-man that does not understand sense ? haynes . 't is better to be an honest irish-man than an english rogue . mr. serj. jeff. he does it but to put you into a heat , don't be passionate with him . haynes . no , i am not , i thank god he hath not put me into an heat . coll. where was this discourse about superceding your warrant ? haynes . at london . coll. when ? haynes . it was before the parliament sate at oxon. coll. how long ? haynes . i can't tell positively to an hour or a day . coll. what month as near as you can ? haynes . it was in the month of march. coll. had you ever seen me before ? haynes . can you deny that ? coll. i ask you whether you have or no ? haynes . yes , i have seen you in the coffee-houses bawling against the government . l. c. j. were you an intimate acquaintance of his before march last ? haynes . no intimate acquaintance . coll. then this is the first time you discoursed with me . haynes . oh , no , my lord. one and i fell out at the queens-head tavern at temple-bar , and he set me upon the business , and john macnamarra and others , and truly i did the business for him : for we fell out , and did box , and our swords were taken from us , and i went to john macnamarra , and told him , yonder is such a man at such a place , now you may seize upon him . coll. what man was that ? haynes . one richard ponre . coll. he belonged to my lord tyrone , i think , there were warrants to take him . do you say i set you upon that ? haynes . yes , you were with me the night before , and captain browne , and they gave us a signal , a blue ribband to distinguish that we were protestants from the bishops men . l. c. j. when were you to make use of it ? haynes . when the king was seized . mr. ser. jeff. well , go on , have you any more ? haynes . but , my lord , further , after he came from oxon. i met him , and said i , where are now all your cracks and brags ? now you see the king hath made a fool of you ; now you know not what you would have done . says he , what would you have us do ? we have not done with him yet : for , said he , no servant , no man living did know whether he would dissolve the parliament that day . i was that very nick of time at the lobby of the lords-house , and there was a man came in with a gown under his arm , and every one looked upon him to be a taylor , and no body did suspect , no , not his intimatest friends , except it were fitz-gerald , that he would dissolve the parliament that day ; but presently he puts on his robes , and sends away for the house of commons ; and when he had dissolved them , before ever the house could get down , he took coach and went away , otherwise the parliament had been too hard for him ; for there was never a parliament-man but had divers armed men to wait on him , and i had my blunderbuss and my man to wait upon me . but well , said he , there is a god above will rule all . mr. att. gen. call mr. turbervile . coll. hold , sir , i desire to ask him some questions . you say the first time that i saw you , you had this discourse with me . haynes . do not use tautologies , 't is not the first time i have been examined , i know how to speak as well as you . coll. answer my question , sir. haynes . you know it was after i had made affidavit before the recorder of london , a copy of which was carried to that noble-man ; and you came from him , and returned me his thanks , and told me it was the best service i could do him . i would not trouble the court with circumstantial things ; and you cold me i should be gratified not only in my own property , but a reward for me and my heirs for ever . mr. att. gen. for what ? haynes . i made affidavit before the recorder of london . colledge . about what ? haynes . concerning one fitz-gerald . mr. att. gen. is it to this matter ? haynes . no , nothing at all . l. c. j. let him ask any questions , what he will. coll. i ask when it was the first time you were acquainted with me so much , as to know me well ? haynes . as to the first time of intimacy , here is macnamarra will take his corporal oath that i was as well acquainted with him as any one in the world. coll. pray answer me , sir ; when was the first time i talked to you ? haynes . the first intimate acquaintance we had , was when you put me upon the design about fitz-gerald . colledge . pray sir , you go too fast already , as you are still gallopping ; where was this discourse about his majesty ? haynes . i told you before . coll. what was it ? haynes . i went to you after the affidavit was made , and told you there was a warrant out after me , and desired you to go to that noble-man , and desire his advice what i might do , or whether i might supersede the warrant . you told me you could do nothing without advice , and you would go and advise with that noble-man . colledge . my lord , here is mr. turbervile come in , they will over-hear one another , pray let me have fair play for my life . ( whereupon turbervile withdrew . ) lo. ch . just . can't you answer him ? when was the first time you came acquainted with him ? mr. serj. jeff. when was the first discourse you had with him ? haynes . in april last . coll. you say it was before the sitting of the parliament , and that was in march. haynes . i meant in march. colledge . so indeed you said at first . mr. ser. jeff. he never did say the day of the month , nor the month neither . mr. jones . how long was it before the sitting of the parliament ? haynes . mr. jones , truely i do not remember precisely how long it was before the sitting of the parliament , but i am sure it was before . mr. ser. jeff. i did take it that he said it was before the sitting of the parliament , and now he says , in the month of march. pray at that time he talked to you , did not he tell you of the sitting of the parliament , and that they would stand by you . coll. he hath said it already , you need not direct him , sir george , he goes fast enough . but you say , sir , the first time i ever was acquainted with you was in march , then gentlemen consider whether it be probable that at that time i should discourse to him after this manner . l. c. just . no , i will tell you what he says , he said the first time he was intimately acquainted with you , was in march , he said he had before seen you in coffee-houses , and he is sure it was before the sitting of the parliament ; for he tells you the discourse you had , and by that discourse it appears , it related to a parliament that was afterwards to sit . and then , to give you a more particular circumstance , he says that you put him upon the making of the affidavit about fitz-gerald , and so you came acquainted . haynes . ask mr. attorney . my lord , that day he was taken and carried to whitehall before the secretary of state ; he said , i do not know who it should be that should accuse me , i believe it is ivy ; as for haynes , he was taken t'other day , he was an honest man. coll. you say i desired you to make an affidavit , was it after that or before i had that discourse with you ? haynes . it was after . for i came and desired you to go to such a person of quality , and you went to him and advised with him ; and then the next morning such discourse as i told your lordship and the whole court of , he told me . coll. did i speak these treasonable words after the affidavit made ? haynes . you said i must make such an affidavit concerning fitz-gerald . colledge . but was this treasonable discourse before you made the affidavit , or after ? haynes . after the affidavit made you told me this : when i came to his house , and from thence we went to the hercules-pillars . mr. sol. gen. will you ask him any more questions , mr. colledge ? coll. did you ever speak with me in your life before macnamarra did call me out of the coffe-house to go along with you , where you would discover a design against my lord shaftsbury's life ? haynes . i told you i never had any intimate acquaintance with you in my life before , nor did i ever speak with you before . colledge . when was that discourse , i ask you once again ? haynes . after the affidavit made . colledge . that night ? haynes . within a week or thereabouts after the affidavit made . mr. att. gen. call mr. edward turbervile . but mr. haynes , i would ask you one question , did he deliver you any ribband as a mark of distinction . haynes . yes , here it is . ( and it was shewed to the court. ) then mr. turbervile was sworn . mr. ser. jeff. pray mr. turbervile will you tell my lord and the jury what discourse you had with mr. colledge , and where , and when . turbervile . when the parliament sat at oxon. about the middle of the week , i cant be positive in the day , but i think it was in the middle of the week i dined with mr. colledge , captain brown and don lewes clerk of derby-house , at the chequer inn. after dinner don lewes went out about his own business , and captain brown went to sleep ; mr. colledge and i fell talking of the times , and i was observing , i thought the parliament was not a long lived parliament . said he , there is no good to be expected from the king ; for he and all his family are papists , and have ever been such , you know it , sir. mr. serj. jeff. nay don't appeal to him . turbervile . said i , the king will offer some thing or other by way of surprize to the parliament , said he , i would he would begin ; but if he do not , we will begin with him and seize him ; for there are several brave fellows about this town that will secure him till we have those terms that we expect from him . l. c. j. where was this ? turbervile . at the chequer inn in oxon. l. c. j. what said he further ? turbervile . he said he had got a case of pistols , and a very good sword , and a velvet cap ; and i can't be positive he had armour on , but i believe he had . mr. att. gen. did he tell you he came down for that purpose to seize the king ? turbervile . yes , and he gave me a piece of blew ribband to put upon my hat , he had a great quantity of it . mr. att. gen. what was that for ? turbervile . to be a distinction if there should be any disturbance when the thing should be done . coll. what thing done ? turbervile . i knew nothing but of your telling me of it . coll. where was this ? turberv . at the chequer inn in oxon. m. colledge . you talk much and can't remember all you say . mr. att. gen. what did he discourse to you about arms and an horse . turberv . i told him i had never an horse , and nothing but a case of pistols ; he bid me i should not trouble my self , for he would get me an horse . coll. what to do ? turberv . to carry on your design , i know not what it was , but by your words . mr. sol. gen. tell what he said of it at the chequer inn. turberv . he said there was a design to seize the king. mr. att. gen. did he desire you to be one of them . turberv . he did desire me to be ready to assist . mr. jones . and how much of that ribband had he , pray ? turberv . a very great quantity , or yards . mr. sol. gen. pray mr. turbervile will you give your evidence over again , and let mr. colledge attend to it . turberv . when the parliament sat at oxon. about the middle of the week , i cannot be positive to a day ; i believe it was either wednesday or thursday i dined with mr. colledge , captain brown , and don lewes , who was formerly clerk of derby-house . don lewes after dinner went out , and capt. browne laid him down on the bed , and mr. colledge and i fell a talking of the times , and i told him , i thought this parliament was no long-lived parliament . upon which colledge told me the king and all his family were papists , and there was no good to be expected from him . then i replyed , the king would perhaps surprize the parliament , or use some stratagem to bring them to his terms . said mr. colledge again , i would he would begin ; but if he do not , we will secure him till he comes to those terms we would have from him ; for here are several brave fellows , and many more are coming down that will joyn with it . mr. att. gen. did he name any one ? turberv . no indeed , he did not ; he himself had a case of pistols , a sword , and i believe he might have his armour on . coll. did i discourse who were to joyn with me ? turberv . no , mr. colledge , you did not name any body to me , but captain browne was with you . mr. att. gen. were you examined in my lord staffords tryal ? turberv . yes i was . mr. att. gen. was this gentleman sworn to your reputation there ? turberv . no , not to mine . coll. pray how come we to talk of such things , what occasion was there that i should talk treason of the king to you , was there any body besides us two there . turberv . no , capt. browne was gone to sleep , and lewes was gone out . mr. att. gen. it was not at dinner that you talked so , mr. colledge , he says . coll. had they been at dinner with us there ? turberv . yes , and we had a legg of boyled mutton to dinner . coll. did you stay after dinner ? turberv . yes , and i lay with you afterwards upon the bed . coll. i thought you had said capt. browne went to sleep there . turberv . yes , but he was gone too , when we laid down together . coll. god forgive you , i can say no more , i never spoke one word of any such discourse in my life . mr. att. gen. will you ask him any more questions ? coll. mr. turbervile , when did you give in this information against me ? turbervile . i gave it to the grand jury . colledge . not before ? turbervile . yes , i did . colledge . when was it ? turbervile . truly i can't well tell , i believe it was a day or two before i came to oxon. coll. why did you make it then , and not before ? turbervile . i 'll tell you the occasion . mr. dugdale told me the grand jury of london would not find the bill ; i did admire at it extremely ; for i thought every one that conversed with him might be an evidence against him ; he was always so very lavish against the king and the government . so then colonel warcupp came to me , and took my depositions , and then i came for oxford . colledge . vvhat was the reason you did not discover this treason before ? turbervile . there was no reason for it , it was not necessary . coll. you were not agreed then . turbervile . there was no agreement in the case , there needs nothing of that i think ; but i am not obliged to give you an account of it . colledge . god forgive you , mr. turbervile . turberv . and you too , mr. colledge . mr. att. gen. then call sir vvilliam jennings . mr. serj. jeff. mr. attorney , if you please , till he comes , i will acquaint my lord here is a gentleman that hath not yet been taken notice of , one mr. masters , that is pretty well known to mr. colledge ; now he is a man , he must acknowledge , of an undoubted reputation , and i desire he may give your lordship and the jury an account what he knows of the prisoner ; because he is so curious for english-men , we have brought him an english-man of a very good repute . colledge . my lord , i am charged with treason in this indictment ; here are a great many things made use of that serve only to amuse the jury , i can conjecture nothing else they are brought for ; i desire to know whether the pictures produced are part of the treason . lo. ch . just . stay till the evidence is given ▪ and we will hear what you can say at large when you come to summ up your defence . mr. ser. jeff. pray , my lord , will you be pleased to hear this gentleman . he will tell you what discourse he hath had with the prisoner at the bar. then mr. masters was sworn . mr. masters . mr. colledge and i have been acquainted for a great many years ; and we have often discoursed . i have told him of his being so violent as he hath been several times . but a little before the parliament at oxon. about christmass last , after the parliament at vvestminster , at mr. charlton's shop the woollen-draper in paul's church-yard , we were discoursing together about the government , and he was justifying of the late long parliaments actions in ; and he said , that parliament was as good a parliament as ever was chosen in the nation . said i , i wonder how you have the impudence to justify their proceedings , that raised the rebellion against the king , and cut off his head. said he , they did nothing but what they had just cause for , and the parliament that sate last at vvestminster was of their opinion , and so you would have seen it . mr. ser. jeff. what did he say of the parliament since ? mr. masters . he said the parliament that sate last at vvestminster was of the same opinion that that parliament was . mr. ser. jeff. pray afterwards , what discourse had you about his colonelship ? mr. masters . we were talking at guild-hall that day the common-council was , the th . of may , as near as i remember ; so i came to him , how now , colonel colledge , said i , what do you make this bustle for ? you mistook me , and said , cousin , how long have you and i been cousins ? nay prithee , said i , 't is not yet come to that , to own kindred between us , i only called you colonel in jest ; marry mock not , said he , i may be one in a little time . mr. serj. jeff. have you any thing to ask mr. masters ? you know he is your old acquaintance , you know him well . ( then sir william jennings was sworn . ) mr. jones . what is it that you know concerning mr. colledge at oxford , sir ? sir vvilliam jennings . my lord , the first time that i heard any thing of mr. colledge , was , there was some company looking upon a picture , for i knew him not , nor never had any word of discourse with him in my life , any more then seeing him in a publick coffee-house . but there was a picture looking on by or or people , i believe , more or less , and i coming and crowding in my head amongst the rest , looked upon this picture . after the crowd was over , mr. colledge takes a picture out of his pocket ; and , said he , i will give you one of them , if you will. so he gives me a picture ; which picture , if i could see , i could tell what it was ; it was written mac a top , and there were several figures in it . ( then the picture was shewed him . ) this is one of the same that i had of him , and i had not had it long in my custody , but meeting with justice vvarcupp , i shewed it him , who bid me give it him , and so i did . the next thing i did see mr. colledge do , that was in the coffee-house , not the same day , but another time : i saw him bring in a parcel of blue ribband which was wrought , and these words eight times wrought in it , twice wrought in every quarter of a yard , no popery , no slavery . i saw him ●●●l to a member of parliament , as i took him to be , a yard of that ribband for s. and truly i was thinking he would ask me to but some too , and i saw that gentleman ( i took him to be a parliament-man ) take this ribband and tye it upon his sword. as to the other thing i have to say of mr. colledge , that very day the parliament was dissolved he had been in a quarrel , as he told me , with fitz-gerald , and i was standing in the school-house yard , and he comes directly to me without my speaking to him or any thing ; but he comes and tells me fitz-gerald had spit in his face , and , said he , i spit in his face again ; so we went to loggerheads together , i think that was the word , or fisty-cuffs . so , said i , mr. colledge , your nose bleeds ; he takes his handkerchief out of his pocket and wipes his nose , and said , i have lost the first blood in the cause , but it will not be long before more be lost . l. c. j. where was this ? sir william jennings . in the school-house yard at oxon. i never discoursed with him afterwards till i met him in london in fleet-street one sunday in the afternoon , and i remember captain crescett was along with me . and when he came up to me , how now , said i , honest joyner ? says he , you call me honest joyner , some call me rogue and rascal , and i have been beating some of them ; so that i believe they will be aware of it . so i told captain crescett i never met this man but he was always in a quarrel . colledge . was it on a sunday that i told you i had been beating of somebody ? sir. will. jenn. you told me so , captain crescett was by . colledge . i remember i met you , but i did not tell you i had been then beating any one . but pray , sir william , when i met you after the parliament was dissolved , and fitz-gerald and i had quarrell'd , did i say , that i had lost the first blood in the cause , but it would not be long e're more were lost . sir william , you are a gentleman ; as for the other men , they don't care what they say , nor do i so much regard them ; but you value your word and honour . these were my words , and pray will you recollect your self before you be positive in the thing , whether i did not say , i have lost the first blood for the parliament , ( for it was upon my vindicating of the commons , and dr. oates , whom fitz-gerald had abused ; and upon that the quarrel began ; so i said , when you met me , and told me my nose bled , i have lost the first blood for the parliament ) i wish it may be the last . sir will. jenn. mr. colledge , if you please i will answer you as to that , i do assure you 't is the first time that ever i came upon this occasion in my days , and i have declared it before , and do declare it now , i would rather have served the king in three engagements , then come in against you , or any man , upon such an occasion . but i declare to you , upon the whole memory of the truth , the words were as i spoke them at first , and no parliament named or mentioned . and , my lord , moreover , i will tell you , when i did tell this story , because mr. crescett that is here , is able to tell you whether i did not relate the words within half an hour , or a little time after . now i never had a prejudice against you in my days , nor other concern , but having told mr. justice vvarcupp this story , i am brought hither to testifie it . coll. sir william , i am sorry you did not better observe and remember my words then . sir vvill. jenn. i must needs say , i could not imagine what the words meant when they were spoken , nor do i understand them to this day ; but soon after they were spoken , i related them to justice vvarcupp , he being a justice of peace . mr. ser. holloway . gentlemen , we shall rest here , and conclude our evidence for the king at present , to hear what the prisoner says to it , only with my lords leave i shall explain the words to you that are in the indictment , and tell you what is meant by compassing and imagining the death of the king. the seizing the person of the king , is in law a compassing and intending his death ; and so it hath been adjudged in several cases , as in jacob , my lord cobham and my lord grey's case , and several other cases ; and so you may fully apprehend what the charge is , and may understand the words in the indictment , that if you are not satisfied with the general words of compassing the kings death , you may know , that the seizing his person extends to it mr. ser. jeff. my lord , we have done with our evidence , now let him go on with his . l. ch . just . now , mr. colledge , you may say what you will for your defence , and call your witnesses that you have to produce . colledge . my lord , i have heard this evidence that is against me , and i would desire your lordship to resolve me some questions upon it ; i think the indictment , is for treasonable practices , for a conspiracy ; now i desire your lordship will be pleased that i may know from you , and the court , whether in all this evidence given in proof against me , a conspiracy is proved ; or if any thing appears besides what they say i said ? l. c. j. for a conspiracy in you , if the witnesses speak truth , there is a plain proof , and of the degrees of it : first of all , by your publishing libels and pictures to make the king odious and contemptible in the eyes of the people , and that you should be the author of some of those pictures , and they were found in your custody . colledge . i conceive that is not proved . lo. ch . just . if the witnesses say true , it is proved . colledge . they do not produce that , they do but say it . lo. ch . just . mr. dugdale swears , that at oxford here , you shew'd him the picture , you sung the song here , and expounded it at my lord lovelace's , and a great many of them are found in your custody . then that you prepared arms , that you shew'd smith the arms in your house , and having those arms , you said you would go to oxford , and if there should be a disturbance there , you would secure the king. and you did come to oxford , where you hear what is said ; for i observe , stephen dugdale and edward turbervile speak of what was done at oxford . john smith and bryan haynes speak of what you said at london before you went to oxford , and after you came from oxford . now i say , if these witnesses speak true , 't is a strong evidence against you , both upon the statute of the edw. the d. and that of this king too . for my brother holloway told you true , that whereas the imagining the death of the king is high treason , by the of edw. the d. so a seizing of the king , and an endeavour to do that , is a constructive intention of the death of the king ; for kings are never prisoners , but in order to their death . and therefore it hath been held in all times , that by the statute of edw. d. that was treason ; but then the statute of this king , in the th . year of his reign , is more strong ; for there it says , if any man shall by any words , or malicious speaking , shew the imagination of his heart , that he hath any such intention , that is treason too . coll. my lord , the foundation of this indictment is said to be laid here in oxford , as i suppose ; pray , my lord , here is only mr. dugdale and turbervile that swear against me for what i should say in oxon. all the rest speak to things said and done at london . now , my lord , i desire to know , whether they have proved any treasonable practices , conspiracy or design against the government , i would feign know that , whether there be matter here to ground an indictment upon ; for the one says in one place , the other in the other , which may be distinct matters , and none of them swear facts against me , but only words . mr. just . jones . yes , providing arms for your self and offering others arms. coll. that i shall make this answer to , i had only a case of pistols and a sword , which every footman and horseman had , that came from london , i think . but further my lord , i would ask your lordship , whether there ought not to be witnessesdistinct , to swear words at one and the same time . mr. just . jones . no , no , the resolution of the judges in my lord staffords case is contrary . l. ch . just . look you , it hath been often resolved , that if there be one witness that proves one fact which is an evidence of treason , and another proves another fact , that is an evidence of the same treason , though they be but single witnesses to several facts . yet they are two witnesses to an indictment of treason ; that hath been often publickly resolved , particularly in the case of my lord stafford , mentioned by my brother . and i 'le tell you my opinion further , if there be one witness that proves here what you said at oxford , and another that proves what was said in london , if they be in order to the same treason , it is sufficient ; for if you do conspire to commit such a treason in london , and you come with such an imagination in your heart to oxford to compleat this treason , tho your design was not first formed there , i think 't is enough to maintain an indictment of treason , and they are two good witnesses , though but one speak to what was done at oxford , but i must tell you , in your case there are two full witnesses to that which was done at oxford , besides sir william jennings . colledge . that which sir william jennings speaks of , i told you before what it was i said , it was the first blood that was shed for the parliament . mr. just . jones . the parliament was dissolved before that which sir william jennings speaks of , therefore you could not say it was to defend the parliament . coll. mr. dugdale did say that i spake such and such words in the barbers shop in the angel-inne ; there i was indeed at the time that he does speak of , and the barber was by , i do think , indeed it were convenient to have him here ; but i knew not where he would charge me , or what it was he would charge me with , because i never said any thing in my life that was like treason . l. c. j. mr. colledge , call any witnesses you will. coll. but , my lord , pray let me ask you one question more ; you take these words distinct from any matter of fact don't you ? l. c. j. no , complicated with the fact , which was the overt-act , the coming to oxon. with pistols , to make one if there had been any disturbance , and to seize the king. colledge . then , my lord , i would ask you , whether , any act of treason done at london , shall be given in evidence to prove the treason for which i am now indicted , and which was given in evidence before the grand jury , upon which the tryal was there grounded . l. ch . just . any act of treason this is of the same kind . and i 'le tell you , that was resolved in sir henry vanes case ; those that gave you that paper understand it . but i speak now to your capacity , and to satisfie your question . he was indicted for levying war against the king , he conspired in westminster , the war was levyed in another county ; the conspiracy upon the tryal was proved in the county of middlesex , and the war in another place , and yet it was held sufficient to maintain the indictment in the county of middlesex . colledge . there was a war really levyed , but god be thanked here is only bare words . mr. just . jones . yes , actions too . colledge . what actions , my lord ? mr. just . jones . arming your self and coming to oxford . lo. ch . just . well , i have told you my opinion ; my brothers will speak theirs , if they think otherwise . mr. just . jones . that is not your case neither , though i am of the same opinion with my lord ; for here are two witnesses have proved plain matter of fact at oxford ; the providing arms your self , and encouraging others to take arms — colledge . they name no persons . mr. just . jones . you will have my opinion , and yet you will give me no leave to speak ; i had patience to hear you : you are told there are two witnesses , turbervile and dugdale , that prove your providing and having of arms at oxon. and perswading others to take arms , particularly turbervile , he told you he had no arms , or but a case of pistols , and he had no horse ; but you told him you would provide him an horse . and then there are two other witnesses , smith and bryan haynes , they do not tell you of any thing done at oxford , but they tell you what you said in their hearing of what you had done in oxon. and so i think if the witnesses are to be believed , there is a very full proof against you . mr. just . raymond . i am of the same opinion truly , and i cannot find , but that there is proof enough by two witnesses , turbervile and dugdale , of what was done at oxford . they swear matter of fact , not words only , but actions also . coll. no fact , but that i had pistols and a sword , and that i should tell mr. turbervile i would provide him an horse , which is still but words . mr. just . jones . but you shall hear anon for the full conviction of you and all others , the statute of the th . of this king read to you , and you shall there see that such words are made treason . coll. but i beseech your lordship to tell me whether there must not be two witnesses to the same words at the same time . mr. just . jones . no , it was the resolution of all the judges in the case of my lord stafford in the presence of the parliament , and the parliament proceeded upon it . m. ser. jeff. in the same tryal where mr. colledge was a witness . mr. att. gen. all the whole house of commons prayed judgement upon my lord stafford , pursuant to that resolution . l. c. j. come will you call any witnesses ? coll. my lord , i do not question but to prove this one of the hellishest conspiracies that ever was upon the face of the earth , and these the most notorious wicked men , an absolute design to destroy all the protestants of england , that have had the courage to oppose the popish plot. in which no man of my condition hath done more then i have done . i was bred a protestant , and continued so hitherto , and by the grace of god i will dye so . if that they had known of these words that i should speak , and such a design that i should have before the parliament sat at oxon. and be with me in oxon. when the parliament sat , if they had been good subjects , they ought to have had me apprehended . turbervile came several times indeed , and dined with me . i did not bid him go out of doors , nor invited him thither ; he was a man i had no disrespect for , nay he was a man i valued , thinking he had done the nation service against the papists ; that this man should hear me speak such words against his majesty , who was then in this town , and know of such a dangerous design to attempt the seizing of his person , or that i should discover a great party that were ready to do it , i think there is scarce any man of reason , but will say , if this were really done and spoken by me , neither of them would or ought to have concealed it , but discover it ; none of them has ever charged me with any such thing , they have been in my company since . i never had any correspondence with any of them but dugdale , then pray consider how improbable it is , that i should talk of such things to papists , priests and irish-men , who have broke their faith with their own party , that faith which they gave under the penalty of damnation , men that have been concerned in plots and treasons , to murder and cut the throats of protestants , that i should be such a mad man to trust these people , when i could receive no manner of obligation from them , nor could give any trust to them , they having before broke either faith ; especially , considering i could lay no such oaths and obligations upon them , who was a protestant ; then 't is the greatest non sense , to believe that i would say these things before persons whom i could never hope would conceal my treasons , having discovered their own . if they speak truth concerning the general popish plot , that could be no obligation upon me to trust them with another ; and they cannot say , that they ever obliged me in any one respect . my lord , i thank god i have had some acquaintance in the world , and have been concerned with some persons of honour , noblemen and parliament men , that i know are as good subjects as any his majesty has ; these never found me a fool , nor a rascal , so great a knave , as to have any such thoughts in my heart , nor so great a mad-man , or so foolish , as to go to discover them to papists , priests , and irish-men , to men of their condition , that were ready to starve for bread. as for haynes and smith , that run so fast through all their evidence , the first time that ever i set my eyes on haynes , was in the coffee-house that he speaks of ; macnamarra comes in , and desires me to go out with with him , and i should hear the greatest discovery of a piece of villany against my lord of shaftsbury's life , that ever i heard many life . this captain brown , who is now dead , a man that i had not known but a month before ( for i think it was in march last when this was ) could testifie for me ; for i came to him , captain , said i , here is a discovery offered to be made to me , of a design to take away my lord shaftsbury's life . macnamarra asks me to go to the hercules pillars , i went along with him , and took captain brown with us . afterwards he fell sick in april , and is now dead , so i lost a main evidence in the case . he was the only man that was by at the time ; god knows my heart , i speak nothing but the truth , i took him with me , haynes began to discover to us , that fitz-gerald had employed him to fetch over macnamarra , and if he would come in , and swear against my lord of shaftsbury , which was his design , it would not be long e're his head were taken off , and he said , he had given in a paper of high treason against my lord of shaftsbury , i asked what it was , he told me , that my lord should tell fitz-gerald that he had a design to bring this kingdom to a common wealth , and to root out the family of the stuarts . this he said fitz-gerald had given in in a paper under his own hand ; and i think he said , he had sworn it , and sent haynes to fetch macnamarra to swear agaist my lord the same things too . i writ down all the heads of the discourse which captain brown heard as well as i. after he had said it , he desired us to conceal it . sir , said i , you are a stranger to me , and these are great and strange things that you do tell us , macnamarra and browne and ivy , and others were there , which ( if they were honest men ) they would come and testifie . i thought them honest men , and that they had none of those wicked designs in their hearts , that now i find they have . so says haynes , i do not know this man , meaning me ; macnamarra told him , i was an honest man , he might lay his life in my hands . after he had spoken all this , he desired us to conceal it ; said he , i will not only discover this , but a great deal more of their rogueries that i know very well ; said i to him again , i will not conceal it , nor do you no wrong , for if this be true my lord of shaftsbury shall know it to night ; for where there is a design to take away a peer of the realm , i will not conceal it ; but if it be false , and you have said more then comes to your share , recant it again , and we will take no notice of it , only say you are a knave for speaking of it ; he swore dam him it was all true , that and a great deal more , which he said he knew , about seizing and destroying the parliament at oxon. about an army in the north that was to be raised about the time of the sitting of the parliament at oxon. of a french army that was to land in ireland at the same time , that the d. of york was to be at the head of them , and the intention was , to destroy all the protestants . upon this , i was resolved , if i lived , to come along with the parliament , and if there was any such design , i was resolved to live and die with them , but i had no more then common arms , a sword and a case of pistols , and my cap was a velvet cap , and nothing else . my lord , i had the honour to be sent for , when the parliament sat last at westminster , the sessions in october , it was an honourable occasion , and i thank those worthy gentlemen that sent me for the honour of it , there i begun to be popular as to my name , for from that time they began to call me the protestant joyner , because the parliament had intrusted me . my lord grey was pleased to send his footman for me to the crown tavern behind the exchange , where there were several worthy lords , peers of the realm , and one hundred of the commons , that had dined there that day , it was the day before they sat ; after they had dined i came to them , and the duke of monmouth told me , they had heard a good report of me , that i was an honest man , that understood building , and they did confide in me to search under the parliament house ; they did not really know of any design , but they would not be secure , there might be some tricks play'd them by the papists , tho' we are not afraid of them , said the duke , yet we think fit to employ you to search under the houses , whether you can find any such practices . so accordingly my lord , i did go , my lord lovelace was one of the honourable lords , and my lord herbert that went with me , and some of the gentlemen of the house of commons ; and those worthy protestant lords were pleased to thank me for my service , and did believe i was active and zealous to find out and discover the bottom of the popish plot , so far as it came legally in my way to do it . my lord , upon this occasion , there was a great kindness from them to me , and i had upon all occasions testimonies of it ; and this very man who now swears treasons against me ( which god almighty knows is all false ) did swear in his affidavit before sir george treby the recorder of london ( i did never see the affidavit , indeed i was over night at sir george treby's , but he was not then at leisure , but he drew it up next day , and swore it ) that there was a design to destroy the parliament at oxon. and there was not only his oath for it , but it was the general belief , that some evil was intended them . all men had cause to fear and to suspect , the papists did bear them no good will ; and making use of their own observations , they were generally armed with a pistol , or a sword for themselves , in case they should be attck'd by the papists . in order to this , i did come down with my lord howard , my lord of clare , my lord of huntington , and my lord pagett , those four worthy protestant lords ; and it was two days after the parliament was sat , that we came , and i went out of town again with my lord lovelace , sir thomas player and sir robert clayton ; and i am sure , they were all in so great a fear that london should be surprized and seized on by the papists , but there was no mortal man that ever heard of the kings being seized , or thought of it , till these men come and tell me , that i had such a design , and came hither with that purpose ; but my lord , i declare as god is my judge , i would not have it thought i speak it to save my life , were it as certainly a truth , as 't is most wickedly a falshood , that i had had a design to seize the king , i know not of one man who was to stand by me , parliament man , or other persons whatsoever ; and how is it possible for me to attempt that , being a single person , with only a sword and a case of pistols , let any man judge . and i do declare , i know of no conspiracy nor design , against the king or government , i never spoke one of the treasonable words in my life , that is laid against me , nor had ever any thoughts of any such thing . god that is my eternal judge knows , that what i speak is true . l. c. just . well , mr. colledge , will you call your witnesses , for i must tell the jury as i did at your request , concerning mr. attorney , that as nothing he said , so nothing you say is to be believed upon your own allegation ; for then no man would ever be guilty , if his own purgation by words were to be believed . coll. my lord , i thank god , i know my own innocency , and hope to prove it . i have a soul that must live to eternity , either in joy or misery , i act according to those principles , and i hope i have some assurance of my own salvation when i dye : i would not call god to witness to a lye , to save lives . my lord , this is a villanous conspiracy against me , and if it take place against me , it may go a great way , god knows how far . this is the th . or th . sham plot the papists have made against the protestants , to get over their own ; but i hope , my lord , god almighty will never suffer it . if they can make me a traytor , they will try it upon others , and so hope to sham off their own treasons ; but i say , i hope god almighty will never suffer it . my lord , i think the first witness that swore against me was mr. dugdale ; and i must call my witnesses as i have them here , i know no person of them hardly , and this tht is done for my defence was done abroad . my lord , i have been kept close prisoner in the tower , and none of them suffered to come to me , whilst the popish lords have had the liberty and priviledge to talk with their friends . here are vvitnesses i hope will prove that those are suborned men , for macnamarra did tell me presently after the parliament broke up at oxon. and whispered it to me in the coffee-house ; said he , there is a design laid to make us retract our evidence , and go over to fitz-gerald . said i , i suppose they have been at that sport a great while . ah , said he , they make large offers . said i , by whom ? said he , colonel warcupp hath been at me , and he tells me — mr. just . jones . macnamarra is not produced against you as a witness at all . coll. no , but he told me this , that there was such a design ; and , said he , i will get you , and some other honest men ; and he desired me to be by when he had something more to tell which would do his business for him ; but the next news i heard of him was , he was put into newgate . lo. ch . just . call your witnesses , mr. colledge , and prove what you can . coll. call mr. hickman . mr. att. gen. my lord , i desire he may observe the same rule he desired about our witnesses , that he may call but one at a time . colledge . yes , yes , i will call them one by one . l. c. j. are not your witnesses together ? send to them . colledge . my lord , i don't know , i have not seen one since i come . this is not the first time , my lord , the papists have designed to take away my life , though it is the first time they go to take it away by a law. l. c. j. i know not of one papist that is a witness against you . colledge . there is never a man of them , except sir william jennings , but what was a papists . mr. att. gen. what say you to mr. masters ? colledge . mr. masters says nothing material , it was only a jocose discourse . mr. serj. jeff. it was very pleasant discourse upon my word ; you were as merry as when you were singing of the rary shew . mr. just . jones . what , do you make mirth of the blackest tragedy that ever was ; that horrid rebellion , and the murther of the late king. colledge . i never justified that parliament in any such thing that they did contrary to law. mr. just . jones . he swears it . mr. att. gen. hickman does not appear , call another . coll. call william shewin , ( who appeared . ) l. c. j. look you here , friend , you are not to be sworn ; but when you speak in a court of justice , and in a course of justice , you must speak as in the presence of god , and only speak what is true . coll. i would not have any body speak any thing for me but what is truth . l. c. j. now ask him what you will. colledge . i don't know the gentleman . but , pray , sir , will you tell what you know of these witnesses . mr. shewin . name any of them that i know , pray , sir , and i 'll tell you . colledge . do you know bryan haynes ? mr. shewin . i know there is such a man , but i have nothing to say to him . colledge . do you know turbervile ? mr. shewin . yes . colledge . pray tell what you know of him . mr. shewin . my lord , i was in turbervile's company on thursday night last at the golden posts at charing-cross , and there i heard him say , that if i were at oxford i should hear strange things against colledge , and he would lay ten to one that mr. bethel and mr. wilmore should be hanged at christmass , and he would lead him by the gold-chain along fleetstreet , and down with his breeches in the middle of the coffee-house , with a band about his neck and a cloak . mr. serj. jefferies . did he say all these things against mr. sheriff bethel , i assure you he is a bold man. coll. what do you know of mr. smith ? mr. shewin . i know him by sight , but i have nothing in particular to say concerning him . i have something to say to macnamarra , sir , if he were here . colledge . do you know any thing of this conspiracy in general ? mr. jones . what , of your conspiracy ? mr. shewin . i know that they did lay who should be hang'd at candlemass , who at christmass , and who at several other times . lo. ch . just . what did you hear turbervile say ? mr. shewin . those words i spake before about sheriff bethel , and about the amsterdam coffee-house . colledge . did they say what time i should be hang'd ? for the discourse ' rose about me . mr. shewin . one told me that there was one that did design to be returned upon this jury , that was resolved to hang him right or wrong . mr. high sher. my , lord , i did hear there was such a one , and i left him out of the jury . l. ch . just . for mr. sheriffs honour we must take notice of what he hath said . he says he heare of a man that spoke something of that nature , and therefore he left him out of the jury . coll. now 't is possible these witnesses were at the same sport . mr. shewin . was mr. peacock , mrs. fitz harris maids father , or she here , either of them witnesses against you ? mr. serj. jeff. no , they were not , sir ? coll. they did swear against me at the finding of the bill . mr. ser. jeff. we have only called these witnesses , if you can say any thing against them , do . coll. call henry hickman , ( who appeared . ) mr. serj. holloway . where do you live , sir ? mr. hickman . at holborn-bridge . mr. att. gen. what trade are you ? mr. hickman . a cabinet-maker . l. ch . just . what do you ask him ? coll. do you know haynes ? hickman . yes , very well , because he used to come to my house to a popish widow that was a lodger in my house where i live now ; and this person was a prisoner at haynes's when he was a prisoner in the fleet. i always had a suspicion he was a priest , not that i could accuse him really of any thing ; but he several times using to come to my house , i thought so of him , and discoursing with my landlady . lo. ch . just . your tenant you mean ? mr. hickman . yes , my tenant . i asked her what this fellow was ; said she , he is a very dangerous fellow , though he is a papist , and i am one my self , yet he is a dangerous person , and he does not much care what he swears against any one . mr. just . jones . this your tenant told you , what do you know your self ? mr. hickman . another time he came to speak with my tenant mrs. scot , who is now gone into ireland ; when he came to the house , he asked me , is mrs. scot within ? yes , said i , mr. haynes , she is above ; and up he goes , and there they locked the door , and plucked out the key ; so i slipt off my shooes , for i thought there might be more danger from such people than i could discover any other way . so i went up stairs , and stood at the door and hearkened , hearing my landlady talk something to him , he wraps out a great oath . god dam me ▪ said he , i care not what i swear , nor who i swear against ; for 't is my trade to get money by swearing . whereupon , my lord , i came down as fast as i could , and a little after i saw him go out , and as soon as my landlady came down , said i , mrs. scot , i desire you would provide your self as soon as you can ; i would be civil to you , and i would not put you to a non-pluss , because your goods by the law will be seized for not departing according to the kings proclamation . so a while ago , since this business of haynes's swearing against my lord of shaftsbury , i bethought my self of some other businesses i had heard . to find out the knavery , i went to the fleet , where he hath a very ill character , as well amongst the papists as the protestants . whereupon i asked one fellow , that was a kind of a porter , if he knew any thing of him ? said he , go you to such an one — mr. ser. jeff. we must not permit this for example sake , to tell what others said . lo. ch. just . nothing is evidence but what you know of your own knowledge ; you must not tell what others said . hickman . this i do say , i heard him say ; and there are those that can produce a letter — mr. serj. jeff. bring those people , but you must speak nothing but upon your own knowledge . hickman . i was at the chamber-door , and looked in at the key-hole , and he sat down at the window . lo. ch . just . how long ago was it , pray ? hickman . a year and an half . mr. att. gen. you are an eves-dropper , i perceive . hickman . i did not know what danger he might bring men into , because he was a papist . i have taken an oath to be true to the king , and i will as long as i live . for this gentleman , i never beheld him , till last night , in all my days ; though he lived by me , i never saw him . lo. c. j. well , call the next . coll. i never saw this gentleman ; but you see what haynes hath declared . mr. serj. jeff. this man says he did say so . colledge . and , for ought i perceive , he does accordingly . call elizabeth oliver : ( who appeared . ) l. ch . just . mrs. oliver , stand up . what do you ask her ? coll. do you know haynes , pray ; bryan haynes . ? mrs. oliver . yes . coll. pray tell the court what you know of him . mrs. oliver . i know him very well . l. c. j. what do you know of him ? mrs. oliver . he writ a letter in my fathers name , unknown to my father . l. c. j. did you see him write it ? mrs. oliver . i saw him write it . l. c. j. read it . by whom is it subscribed ? clerk. by no body . l. c. j. why , how is it written in your fathers name , when it is not subscribed at all ? mrs. oliver . he writ it , as from my father . mr. ser. jeff. whether did he bring it ? mrs. oliver . he sent it into the countrey . mr. ser. jeff. can you write and read , mistress . mrs. oliver . yes . mr. serj. jeff. who did he send it by ? mrs. oliver . the carrier . mr. serj. jeff. when was it dated ? clerk. in . l. c. j. read the letter . ( which was done . ) clerk reads . l. c. j. what is all this to the purpose , unless your father were here to prove it was done without his knowledge . mrs. oliver . my father did not write it . l. c. j. was your father in the fleet then ? mrs. oliver . yes , my lord , he was a prisoner then . coll. mrs. oliver , do you know any thing more of him ? mrs. oliver . i have known him a great while , i know him to be a very ill man. mr. serj. jeff. must she tell you all she knows . mr. att. gen. did you ever know him forswear himself . mrs. oliver . no , i do not know that . lo. ch . just . come , call another ; this is nothing to the purpose . coll. call mrs. hall : ( who appeared . ) pray , do you know mr. bryan haynes . mrs. hall. yes , if i see him i know him very well . colledge . what do you know of him . mrs. hall. he lodged at my house , and came there the day before fitz-harris was tryed , and there was a great discourse about his tryal , and i was enquiring of him , and i told him i must expose my ignorance , i did not know what it was he was tried for : and , said he , if you please to sit down , i will tell you : madam portsmouth came to him , and went upon her knees , and begg'd of him , if he had any kindness for his majesty , that he would now shew it at this juncture ; and she told him she had heard he had formerly acquaintance with one mr. everard abroad , and therefore desired him to go now and renew it , and endeavour to get him over , and , if he could possibly , to get over some others to make a presbyterian plot of it . this is true , i very well know it : as for this gentleman , i never saw his face before ; but those were the words i am sure . l. c. j. what were the words ? mrs. hall. that they might make a presbyterian plot of it . coll. did he say so ? mrs. hall. he said that the dutchess of portsmouth did so . l. c. j. what a story is this ? coll. did not he s●y that the dutchess of portsmouth employed him too ? mrs. hall. no , this was about fitz-harris . coll. vvhat do you know more about haynes ? mrs. hall. one night he had been about some business for me in law with one mr. woodward an attorney at law , and when he returned i was busie in the kitchen with my maid about the house , and he came up to me ; madam , said he , this night i had a message from the king ; a justice of peace met me , and brought me word that the king had sent into ireland to enquire into the loyalty of my family , and he hath heard that my father was a loyal subject , but he understood strange things of me ; but if i would come in , he would grant me my pardon . i told him , said he , i did not value his majesties pardon a pin , for i had done nothing that might make me stand in need of it ; but i would do any thing that might tend to the preservation of his majesties person or honour ; but to do such base things as are beneath a man , i will never do it ; and he wisper'd me in the ear as the accusing of several persons ; ) and since , he sent me a letter by his mother in law , mrs. wingfield , that i should not believe it , if i heard he should accuse any body ; but i might be confident he had not , nor would not accuse any body . colledge . was he to swear against the protestants ? mrs. hall. i did not enquire any questions ; but he said , such base things he would never do , as the accusing of several persons . mr. att. gen. pray mistress , did you believe him when he told you he was so honest a man ? mrs. hall. how do you mean , sir ? mr. att. gen. when he said he would not do those base things , did you believe him ? mrs. hall. i never saw his face before he came there to lodge ; but i saw him to be a man that made little conscience of what he said or swore . mr. att. gen. did not you find him a bragging man ? mrs. hall. i had little discourse , but what he said of himself . but there is one thing more about an intelligence : when thompson had written something in his intelligence concerning bryan haynes , he said he would write an answer to it ; and accordingly he reads it to us : he said , he was going that evening to get it put into one of the intelligences : the words were to this purpose . whereas one nathaniel thompson had falsely and maliciously accused one bryan haynes for speaking treasonable words ; he the said bryan haynes doth declare , that he challenges any man to charge him with it : but he owned he had an hand , or was employed to put the plot upon the dissenting protestants . lo. ch . just . did he publish that in the intelligence ? mrs. hall. i never read it published ; but he had writ it , and read it to us several times . mr. att. gen. do you go to church , mistress ? mrs. hall. i hope i do . m. ser. jeff. to what church ? colledge . call mary richards , mrs. halls maid . ( who stood up . ) l. c. j. what will you ask her ? colledge . do you know bryan haynes , pray . richards . yes , he lodged there where i lived . colledge . what do you know of him ? richards . i know he writ that in the intelligence my mistress spoke of ; thompson in his intelligence , accusing him of having spoken treason , he read what he said he would put into the intelligence : that he never spake one word of treason , and he writ it for his own vindication ; that whereas nathaniel thompson , in his intelligence of the th . of june , had maliciously accused one bryan haynes of treasonable words ; there was no such thing . l. c. j. and that was to vindicate him , that he never did speak any treasonable words ? richards . yes . l. c. j. will you ask her any thing else ? colledge . i cannot tell what she says . l. c. j. she says , he writ something that was in answer to thompsons intelligence , to vindicate himself , that he never did speak any treasonable words . coll. but did you hear him say any thing of these words , that he was employed in a plot against the protestants ? richards . i read that , in what he writ to put in the intellgence , that he challenged any one to appear , and charge him with treason ; but , said he , i own that i was employed , or had an hand , in putting the plot upon the dissenting protestants : and he telling my mistress he had a message from the king , offering him his pardon ; i asked him why he did not accept the kings pardon . alass , said he , you do not understand what i was to do for it ; i was to do such base things so beneath a man , that i will never do them : i had five hundred pounds offered me , besides the kings pardon , to do such base things as are beneath a man to do . coll. what were the base things he said he was to do , and would not do ? richards . i cannot tell , he did not say to me what they were . mr. att. gen. when was this ? richards . it was a week before he was taken . mr. att. gen. that is two months ago . coll. it was since the parliament sat at oxford : but what was that he was employed to do , did he say ? richards . why , he said in his answer to the intelligence , he was one that had an hand to put the plot upon the dissenting protestants . coll. call mrs. wingfield ; ( who appeared . ) l. c. j. what is your christian name ? mrs. wingfield . mary . l. c. j. what do you ask her ? colledge . do you know this bryan haynes , pray ? mrs. wingfield . yes , very well . colledge . what do you know of him ? mrs. wingfield . i know nothing of him , but he is an honest man ; he married my daughter , and always carried himself like a gentleman , he scorns the thing that is unhandsome , and never did any thing that is unhandsome in my life . mr. ser jeff. pray , how came you by this witness ? have you any more of them ? coll. i never saw her before , but i believe she hath said something else in another place . did you ever say the contrary , pray ? mrs. wingfield . no body can say so ; and i had done the gentleman a great deal of wrong if i had . coll. call mr. whaley , ( who appeared . l. c. j. what is your name , sir ? mr. whaley . john whaley . coll. did you know bryan haynes ? mr. att. gen. where do you dwell , sir ? mr. whaley . at the hermitage , beyond the tower. coll. i don't know you , sir ; but what do you know of him ? mr. vvhaley . i never saw you , sir , till to day ; but that which i think i am called for is this ; though it was upon sunday that i receiv'd this same subpoena to come down hither : but about six years ago , bryan haynes was a prisoner in the kings bench , and he came down to the cellar which i had taken of the marshal to sell drink in ; and coming down to drink in one of the rooms of the cellar that belong to me , he took away a tankard , and went up with it . one of the men followed him up ; so i went to the marshal to complain , and told him of it : and the marshal took him from the masters side , and put him into the common side . that is all i know of him any way , directly or indirectly . l. ch . just . why did you not indict him of it ? mr. vvhaley . i acquainted the next justice of the peace , who was the marshal ; and he put him from the masters side into the common side . l. c. j. he was no good justice of the peace in the mean time . coll. call mr. john lun , ( who appeared . ) do you know bryan haynes , mr. lun ? mr. lun . i have seen him twice : the first time i ever saw him was , i went into the derby-ale-house , to enquire for one miclethwayte , a kinsman of mine , and there this bryan haynes was in a little room next the ditch , near the door that goes out there , as if he were asleep , and he roused himself up ; and , as i was walking there , sir , said he , will you take part of a tankard with me : ( that was his expression . ) with that , said i , i do not care if i do . and the first thing he began was the kings health , then the queens , then the duke of yorks ; then he fell very foul against the grand jury , because they had not found the bill against colledge , who is a gentleman that i never saw before in my life but once , as i know of : and he said , my lord shaftsbury was a little toad , but he would do his business very suddenly . then he raised upon the parliament , and said they were a company of rogues , they would giue the king no mony , but he would help him to mony enough out of the phanaticks estates . and he said , they would damn their souls to the devil before the catholick cause should sink . mr. serj. holloway . when was this ? mr. lun . it was three or four days after the bill was brought in ignoramus by the grand jury . mr. just . jones . was he alone ? mr. lun . yes , he was . colledge . is that all you have to say ? mr. lun . one thing more , my lord. on monday last i was at uxbridge , and a gentleman sent his man on purpose to let me know i must go to colebrook , and stay till they came thither . when i came there , i met bryan haynes at the crown kitchin-window , and he was stirring a glass of brandy , and sweetning it with sugar . said he , sir , will you drink ? here is the kings health to you : so i drank , and i asked him how he did ? do you know me , sir , said he . yes , said i , i drank with you once . says he , you have a good memory . so then a pint of sack was called for , and after that another , and then came down mrs. peacock ; and being very fine , all in her flower'd silks , i asked what gentlewoman that was ? said he , it is mrs. fitz-harris . no , says i , it is not ; they say she is gone . but , said he , it is her maid ; and sheriff bethel is to marry her . as i have a soul to save , i tell you nothing but what is truth . thereupon said i , sheriff bethel is able to maintain her ; he hath a good estate . but , said he , it shall be the kings e're long . coll. so that here is a plain design against all the eminent protestants . mr. lun . so with that , my lord , if it please your honour , i clapped my groat down at the bar , and went out of the room . nay , said he , let us have one health more : and so he had his tankard , and i had mine . haynes . i humbly desire you to call for mr. white , the kings messenger , who was by . i never saw the man before he was at uxbridge ; and asking mr. white who he was , said he , his name is lun , he was my prisoner two years . l. c. just . what say you to the discourse he talks of at fleet-bridge ? haynes . my lord , i am upon my oath , and i never saw him in my life before i saw him at uxbridge . mr. lun . i will take the sacrament upon it , that what i have averred is true . mr. ser. jeff. i suppose you are both known , and then your credit will be left to the jury . mr. att. gen. there is mr. white ; pray , swear him . ( which was done . ) lo. ch . just . do you remember that haynes asked who mr. lun was . mr. white . it was at the bar of the crown inn at uxbridge , and i being there , mr. lun came into the yard , and i knowing mr. lun asked him , how he did ; he said he was glad to see me ; and he called for a pint of sack to make me drink . haynes stood by , and he asked who he was and i told him ; and we drank the kings health ; but for any thing of those words that were spoken there , sir , i did hear not one word of them , but he thanked me for my civility when i summoned him up to court , and seeing mr. haynes by , he asked who he was ? mr. ser. jeff. and you , take it upon your oath , that he asked you , who haynes was ? mr. white . yes , i do . mr. serj. jeff. pray did you hear any discourse that time as if there had been a meeting upon fleet-bridge . mr. white . not one word of that ? mr. lun . i will take the sacrament upon it , what i say is true . m. ser. jeff. we know you , mr. lun ; we only ask questions about you , that the jury may know you too , as well as we . we remember what once you swore about an army . colledge . i don't know him . mr. lun . i don't come here to give evidence of any thing but the truth ; i was never upon my knees before the parliament for any thing . mr. serj. jeff. nor i neither for much ; but yet once you were , when you cryed , scatter them good lord. colledge . call mr. broadgate . l. ch . just . what is your christian name , sir ? mr. broadg. jeremiah . lo. ch . just . what do you ask him ? mr. broadg. my lord , i am a stranger to the prisoner at the bar ; what i have to say , is concerning mr. turbervile , whom i met one day , and he asked me how i did ? said he , i owe you a little money , but i will pay you in a short time ; but if you will go to drink a glass of ale ; no , said i , i am in haste , and do not care for going to drink ; said he , you shall go ; so away we went , and when we were sat , said he , when did you see turbervile that was my lord powis's butler ; said he , he was a great rogue to me , and when i stood up for the nations good , he vilified my evidence , and afterwards he came to me with doctor _____ to beg my pardon ; but i would not forgive him for the whole world : and speaking of the kings evidence , said he , the kings evidence are looked upon as nothing , as poor inconsiderable mean fellows , and their sallaries are lessened ; and , said he , i have had the greatest proffers from court , of preferment and rewards , if i would go from what i have said , and come upon the contrary ; and he repeated it , yes , upon the faith of a man , and from the highest : but , said he , i have a soul and a body ; a body for a time , but my soul for eternity , and i cannot go from it . he went over it again ; i might have what i would if i would go from what i have said , and come upon the contrary . mr. att. gen. but he does not go from any thing of what he hath said . coll. did he say what he was offered , and by whom ? mr. broadg. he said he had very great offers from the court , if he would disown the plot , and go upon the contrary . lo. ch. just . but he does not disown it . mr. just . jones . nay , he had a soul to save , and could not go from it . mr. ser. jeff. you talk of the contrary , and the contrary ; what did he mean by that , what plot should he disown ? mr. broadg. the popish plot. l. c. j. he does not disown it , nor never did disown it . coll. he would have made a presbyterian plot of it now ; for he cannot say i am in the popish plot. sir , do you know any thing more of him , or did he name me , or that he was to swear against me , or any protestant ? mr. broadg. no , only he said the kings evidence were vilified , and looked upon as poor inconsiderable fellows : but it seemed , if he would go on the other side , he might have great preferments and rewards . l. c. j. you make a wrong comment upon it , mr. colledge ; it was if he would retract his evidence , and disown the plot. coll. i leave it to your lordship and the jury to make the sense of it . mr. broadg. i saw mr. turbervile since i come hither , and he asked , are you come , mr. broadgate , to give evidence against me ? says i , i am come to declare the truth , and nothing but the truth . mr. ser. jeff. you might have staid at home for any thing material that you do evidence . colledge . call mr. zeal , ( who appeared . ) l. ch . just . what is your christian name , sir ? mr. zeal . john. l. c. j. what would you ask him ? mr. ser. holloway . where do you dwell , sir ? mr. zeal . in london . mr. ser. jeff. whereabouts ? mr. zeal . in fetter-lane . mr. ser. holl. what countrey-man are you , sir ? mr. zeal . somersetshire . mr. att. gen. whereabouts in somersetshire were you born ? mr. zeal . by sir vvilliam portmans , within six miles of him . mr. ser. jeff. what trade , sir ? mr. zeal . no trade . mr. serj. jeff. have you any estate . mr. zeal . my father has . i was bred to wait upon a person of quality . colledge . do you know turbervile , sir ? mr. zeal . yes sir , i do . coll. vvhat do you know of him ? mr. zeal . sir , i know nothing but what mr. ivy told me with his own mouth . l. c. j. do you know any thing of your own knowledge ? mr. att. gen. has mr. turbervile told you any thing ? mr. zeal . not concerning mr. colledge , he has not . coll. ivy was amongst them . mr. zeal . yes , my lord , he was the first that swore this presbyterian plot. coll. can you say nothing of your own knowledge concerning turbervile ? mr. zeal . nothing but what mr. ivy told me . mr. ser. jeff. that is not of your own knowledge , and so it is nothing , for he is not produced in this cause . coll. pray , my lord , give me leave to call mr. ivy. mr. ser. jeff. do if you will. ( he stood up . ) coll. vvhat was that you heard turbervile say of me , or of any presbyterian plot ? ivy. i never heard him say any thing concerning a presbyterian plot in my life . colledge . did not you tell zeal of such a thing ? ivy. no , i never did . coll. heark you . mr. ivy ; you have sworn against me , have you not ? ivy. what i have sworn against you , or against any other person , is true . coll. vvhat have you sworn against me ? ivy. i am not bound to answer you . coll. did not you call me out , with macnamarra and haynes , to the hercules-pillars ? l. c. j. look you , mr. colledge , i will tell you something for law ; and to set you right ; whatsoever witnesses you call , you call them as witnesses to testifie the truth for you ; and if you ask them any questions , you must take what they have said as truth : therefore you must not think to ask him any question , and afterwards call another witness to disprove your own witness . coll. i ask him , was he the first time with us when i was called out of the coffee-house to hear haynes's discovery ? l. c. j. let him answer you if he will , but you must not afterwards go to disprove him ? coll. if he were sworn against me , i would not ask him any questions , for he is among them . lo. ch. just . ask him what you will. coll. i desire not if he have sworn against me , for truly i can't expect a good answer from him ; but he was by when haynes made his discovery . l. c. j. will you ask him any questions ? coll. i ask whether he hath given any evidence against me any where ? ivy. i am not bound to answer you . l. c. j. tell him if you have . ivy. yes , my lord , i have . colledge . then i think he is no good witness for me , when he hath sworn against me . ivy. i have sworn against him and others . you know that you and i have had a great many intrigues about this business in hand , and how we dealt with mr. haynes . l. c. j. look you , he does not call you for a witness for him , you can testifie nothing , and so you must be quiet . coll. call mr. lewes . ( who appeared ) l. c. j. what is your christian name ? mr. lewes . william . coll. pray , mr. lewes , what do you know about turbervile ? mr. lewes . i know nothing at all , i assure you , of him that is ill . colledge . do you know any thing concerning any of the evidence that hath been given here ? mr. lewes . if i knew any thing relating to you , i would declare it ; but i know something of mr. ivy ; it has no relation to you , as i conceive , but against my lord of shaftsbury . lo. c. j. you would call ivy for a witness , and now you call one against him ; and that i told you you must not do : but ivy is not at all in this case . coll. do you know any thing of the rest of them ; haynes , or smith , or dugdale ? mr. lewes . no more than what mr. zeal told me was told him . coll. do you know any thing of a presbyterian plot ? mr. lewes . if the court please to hear me , i will tell my knowledge of that ; but i know nothing that affects him in the least , only that which concerns my lord of shaftsbury . l. ch . just . that is nothing to the purpose ; call another . mr. lewes . there was not , to my knowledge , a word mentioned of your name : i will do you all the justice i can ; if i knew any thing concerning you , i would be sure to relate it . coll. i cannot say who can , or who cannot : i am a stranger to all of it . lo. ch . just . well , call your next witness . coll. my lord , there was a petition presented to the common council of london , wherein they set out , that they were tamper'd withal about a plot against the protestants . lo. c. j. a petition from whom ? coll. i cannot tell from whom ; from some of these witnesses . l. c. j. who preferred and signed it ? coll. mr. turbervile was one . pray call dr. oates . l. c. j. the prisoner calls upon you , mr. oates . what would you ask him , mr. colledge ? coll. vvhere is the petition to the common council , doctor ? dr. oates . i have it here in my hand . lo. ch . just . by whom was it presented ? dr. oates . it was given by mr. turbervile and mr. macnamarra , to mr. vvilmoe . lo. ch . just . was you by when it was delivered ? dr. oates . mr. vvilmore did deliver it to me before he was apprehended ; for , being to come down as a witness , he was taken up , and committed to prison . lo. ch . just . whose hands are to it ? dr. oates . i know mr. turbervile's hand , he will not disown it . clerk , reads . it is subscribed edward turbervile , john macnamarra . l. c. j. look you , mr. colledge ; what word is there in all this petition that , is a contradiction to what they have said now ? colledge . i did not hear it , my lord. lo. ch . just . they say they are constant witnesses for the king , against the papists ; and they have been tempted to unsay what they have said : how does that contradict what they say now ? coll. i suppose they say they have been tempted to turn the plot upon other people , and to make a plot upon the protestants . l. c. j. they have been tempted , they say , by the papists , to unsay what they have said ; but the jury have heard it read , and will give it its due weight . will you ask mr. oates any questions ? colledge . what do you know of mr. turbervile ? dr. oates . as to turbervile , my lord , a little before the witnesses were sworn at the old-bailey , i met with mr. tubervile : i was in a coach , but seeing mr. turbervile , i stept out of the coach , and spoke with him ; for , hearing that he was a witness , i did ask him whether he was a witness or no against colledge ? mr. turbervile said , he would break any one's head that should say so against him ; for he neither was a witness , nor could give any evidence against him . so after he came from oxon. i met with mr. turbervile again ; and , hearing he had been there , i asked him if he had sworn any thing against colledge ? he said , yes , he had been sworn before the grand jury . said i , did not you tell me so and so ? why , said he , the protestant citizens have deserted us ; and god dam him , he would not starve . lo. c. j. would he say so to you ? dr. oates . yes , my lord , he said those very words . mr. serj. jeff. 't is mr. oates saying , 't is mr. turbervile's oath . dr. oates . several times he did repeat it ; but when i asked him what he had sworn , he said i am not bound to satisfie peoples curiosities . l. c. j. what say you to it , mr. turbervile ? mr. turbervile . my lord , the first part of the doctor 's discourse , in part is true ; i met him just at my lodgings , and the doctor alighted out of his coach , and spoke to me , and invited me to come to my old friends ; for he told me they had some jeajousie that i was not true to them : and he told me , if i would come to the king's-head club , i should be received with a great deal of kindness ; and never afterwards did i speak with the doctor a tittle about any evidence . l. ch . just . he says , you said you would break any one's head , that said you were an evidence against colledge ; for you were not , nor could be . mr. turbervile . there was no such thing said by me . mr. att. gen. upon your oath , did you tell him so ? mr. turberv . upon my oath , i did not . mr. serj. jeff. did you tell him that other passage , when you swore you would not starve ? mr. turbervile . no , i did not . dr. oates . upon the word of a priest , what i say is true . my lord , i do say , as i am a minister , i speak it sincerely , in the presence of god , this gentleman did say these words to me , which made me afraid of the man , and i went my ways , and never spake with him afterwards , nor durst i ; for i thought he that would swear and curse after that rate , was not fit to be talked with . l. c. j. 't is very improbable that he should say so to you . mr. turbervile . i always looked upon dr. oates as a very ill man , and never would converse much with him . l. c. j. will you ask him any thing more ? coll. do you know any thing of the rest , doctor ? dr. oates . i know nothing of turbervile further , but that he did present this petition , wherein he says , he lay under great temptations to go on the other side , and accuse some protestants . and truly till i heard he was an evidence at oxon. after what he had said to me , i did not believe it . mr. att. gen. doctor oates , mr. turbervile hath not changed sides , you have ; he is still an evidence for the king , you are against him . dr. oates . mr. attorney , i am a witness for truth , against falshood and subornation ; and it can plainly be made to appear there is subornation against the protestants . and moreover , my lord , — l. c. j. mr. oates , you would do well to explain your self . mr. serj. jeff. if there be any subornation relating to mr. turbervile , or any of the other witnesses that have now sworn against colledge , make it out , doctor . dr. oates . there is , my lord , and there will be made further to appear in time to come . to my own knowledge as to mr. smith , mr. colledge and mr. smith had some provoking words passed betwixt them at richard's coffee-house , and mr. smith comes out and swears , god dam him , he would have colledge 's blood . so , my lord , when i met him ; said i , mr. smith , you profess your self to be a priest , and have stood at the altar ; and now you intend to take upon you the ministry of the church of england , and these words do not become a minister of the gospel ; his reply was , god dam the gospel ; this is truth , i speak it in the presence of god and man. l. c. j. can you say any thing of any of the other witnesses . dr. oates . as for mr. dugdale , i was ingaged for him for l. for last lent assizes , he wanted money to go down to the assizes , having paid some debts , and paid away all his money ; and so i engaged for l. that he borrowed of richard the coffee-man . after he came from oxon. i called upon him to hasten to get his money of the lords in the treasury ; which , as near as i remember , was ordered him upon his petition , for so i heard . and at that time , said he , sir , i hear there is a great noise of my being an evidence ; against whom , said i , against several protestants , my lord shaftsbury , and others , said i : i never heard any thing of it ; says he , there is no body hath any cause to make any such report of me ; for i call god to witness , i know nothing against any protestant in england . after that i met with dugdale at richard's coffee-house , and pressing him for the money , and he saying he had it not just then , but would pay it in a little time : mr. dugdale , said i , you have gone , i am afraid , against your conscience ; i am sure against what you have declared to me ; said he , it was all long of colonel warcupp , for i could get no money else . mr. att. gen. mr. oates is a thorough-pac'd witness against all the king's evidence . mr. ser. jeff. and yet dr. oates had been alone in some matters , had it not been for some of these witnesses . dr. oates . i had been alone perhaps , and perhaps not ; but yet , mr. serjeant , i had always a better reputation than to need theirs to strengthen it . mr. ser. jeff. does any man speak of your reputation ; i know no body does meddle with it , but you are so tender . colledge . sir george , now a man is upon his life , i think you do not do well to affront his witnesses . mr. serj. jeff. i do not affront him ; but now , my lord , pray give us leave to call our witnesses . mr. smith , pray stand up . l. c. j. mr. smith , do you hear what mr. oates hath said ? mr. smith . no , my lord. l. c. j. then speak it again , mr. oates . dr. oates . yes , my lord , i will speak it to his face . he said , coming out of richard's coffee-house , they having had some provoking words , as i understood when i come in , god dam that colledge , i will have his blood ; and , my lord , when i did reprove him , and said to him , mr. smith , you have been a priest , and stood at the altar , and intend to be a minister of the church of england , these words do not become a minister of the gospel ; and he replied , god dam the gospel ; and away he went. l. ch . just . what say you to it , mr. smith ? mr. smith . not one word of this is true , upon my oath . 't is a wonderful thing you should say this of me ; but i will sufficiently prove it against you , that you have confounded the gospel , and denied the divinity too . mr. serj. jeff. mr. dugdale , you heard what was said against you . dr. oates . my lord , now dugdale is come i will tell you something more . there was a report given out by mr. dugdale's means , that mr. dugdale was poysoned ; and in truth , my lord , it was but the pox. and this sham passed throughout the kingdom in our intelligencies ; and this i will make appear by the physician that cured him . mr. ser. jeff. that is but by a third hand . dr. oates . he did confess that he had an old clap , and yet he gave out he was poysened ; but now , my lord , as to what i said before of him , i was engaged for l. for mr. dugdale , do you own that ? mr. dugdale , i do own it . dr. oates . i did press upon you to hasten the payment of it . mr. dugdale . yes , you did . dr. oates . and did not you come to me and tell me , there was a noise of your being an evidence , it was in time just before my lord shaftsbury was taken up . mr. dugdale . i never spoke to you till you spake to me . dr. oates . my lord , he came , and said to me . there is a noise of my being an evidence ; now i had not heard it then ; but the day after i did hear it , and i did justifie mr. dugdale . because he had said to me that he had nothing against any protestant in england . so i did stand up in vindication of him ; but , my lord , after he had sworn at the old baily i met him again , and pressed him for the money , and urged him with it , why he had sworn against colledge , when he had told me so and so before , and he said it was all long of colonel warcup ; for he could not get his money else ; and colonel warcup did promise he should have a place at the custom-house . mr. dugdale . upon the oath i have taken , and as i hope for salvation , it is not true . mr. serj. jeff. here is dugdale's oath against dr. oats's saying . dr. oates . mr. serjeant , you shall hear of this in another place . mr. att. gen. 't is an unhappy thing that dr. oates should come in against these men that supported his evidence before . mr. dugd. my lord , i say further , if any doctor will come forth and say he cured me of a clap , or any such thing , i will stand guilty of all that is imputed to me . l. c. j. mr. colledge , will you call any other witnesses ? coll. my lord , i think this is not fair dealing with a man for his life ; because these men be upon their oaths , and deny the things again that my witnesses prove , therefore what they swear must needs be taken for truth : but if my witness comes and says such a thing upon the word of a minister , and in the presence of god , and which he is ready to maintain by an oath , sure it is not to stand for nothing ; nor he to be hooted out of court , because mr. dugdale denies it upon his oath , i do suppose he will not acknowledge it . but , my lord , i am the prisoner , and cannot be heard as a witness for my self : but god is my witness , he hath said a great deal more to me formerly ; and he hath told me when i have seen him with warcup , and asked him why he kept company with warcup , and others ; said he , i know they are suspected men , but i must keep company with them to get my money ; what would you have me do , starve . and when i lent him money out of my pocket , and trusted him with my horse , i dunn'd him for money and could not get it ; said i , will you pay me the l. i lent you ; he put me off , said he , i shall have it , for the attorney general hath made up his accompts , and he is very kind to me ; why then , said i , why have you it not ; said he , he is my friend , and i do not question the getting of it ; but here is new work to be done , such work as my conscience will not serve me to do ; there is more roguery , they will never have done plotting , and counterplotting ; but they will make a thousand plots if they can to destroy the real one . l. c. j. can you prove this now ? coll. no , it was spoken to my self ; and no body was by but my self . l. c. j. then you should not speak it . but you asked the question whether a man may not be believed upon his word , as well as he that is upon his oath . your witnesses are not upon their oaths , but they may be witnesses , and their weight is to be left with the jury ; they will consider how improbable it is , that these men should come , three men to one man , and all of them should speak that which would make themselves rogues and villains ; and that one man of them , smith , should say such words , as , god damn him , he would have his blood , and god damn the gospel : that dugdale should confess he was wrought upon by warcup to testifie against his conscience ; and that turbervile should say to that purpose , he would not starve ; they have sworn the contrary , and so there are all these three mens oaths against one mans affirmation ; but it must be left to the jury . coll. there is his affirmation against what they three say . he charges every one of them , and 't is but the single denial of every one of them to his charge . l. c. j. 't is improbable they should own themselves such villains to him . dr. oates . they must be so , if they will do what they have undertaken . i hope my word will be believed as soon as their oaths . coll. it is not to be thought , but when they have sworn so against me , they will deny any such thing when they are charged with it . l. c. j. have you done with your witnesses ? or will you call any more ? coll. what is said upon an honest mans word in the face of a court , is certainly to be believed as well as what is sworn . l. c. j. 't is a testimony , that is most certain , and must be left to the jury , they must weigh one against the other . but pray , mr. colledge will you call your witnesses , for it begins to grow late . coll. there is mr. wilmore , that was a material witness for me , who was foreman of the grand jury , that would not find the bill upon this evidence . what he had to say i don't know , but i am informed it was very material for me . l. c. j. it will be enough for him to clear himself , for he is charged with high treason , and by two witnesses too . colledge . call. alexander blake . lo. ch . just . what do you ask him ? colledge . do you know john smith ? mr. blake . yes , sir. coll. pray will you tell the court what you know of john smith . mr. blake . i suppose you mean this gentleman . mr. john smith , gent. came to me one morning , and told me there was one haynes under examination , and haynes had discovered very material things against some great persons : this passed , and within few days after i met mr. smith at the exchange coffee-house , and having saluted him , i desired him to drink a glass of wine , and so we went to the sun tavern , and when we were there , i asked him , what his sense was of haynes , and his discovery ? said he , 't is a sham plot : i asked him what he meant by that sham plot ? said he , 't is a meal-tub plot. this is all that i know . l. c. j. would you ask him any thing else ? mr. blake . i know nothing more . coll. do you know any thing of turbervill or dugdale ? mr. blake . sir , i have no acquaintance with him , nor desire it . but i was acquainted with this gent. mr. smith , i know him very well . mr. ser. jeff. you say well , stand down . colledge . call mr. samuel smith . l. ch . just . what ask you him ? colledge . what he knows of mr. smith . mr. s. smith . mr. john smith and i have had an intimacy and acquaintaince several months , and since mr. john smith swore at the old baily against mr. colledge , and was gone out of town , several people have talked with me concerning him , and asking me what i thought of him ? i told them , i believed he was an honest man , however i would not believe otherwise till i knew a reason of it . they told me , that he had sworn against mr. colledge , that he was to seize the king at the parliament at oxford , and that there was barrels of powder , and it was to carry on a presbyterian plot : said i , i will never believe it , and the rather because he hath said to me often , there was a popish plot , but he does not believe any presbyterian or protestant plot ; and said i further , as to his giving in any evidence with irish-men , i believe it the less for that ; for i have heard him often say , they were a company of rogues that had done the protestant interest more harm than ever they would do it good , and bid me have a care of coming into their company , and many other such things , that mr. smith here knows to be true . then , my lord , when mr. smith came home ( for i was very impatient till he did come home to hear every day such things said against him ) i went to see him . said i , cousin smith , i have had great confronts about you since you went away , but i hope you can't be that ill man you are represented to be , and truly i should be sorry it should be so : pray cousin , said i , i have put every man off with this , that i would suspend my belief of you till i had spoken with your self ; what is the evidence you have given ? they say , you have sworn a presbyterian plot , or a protestant plot , a design of seizing the king at oxon. and of so many barrels of gen-powder that were provided . says my cousin , i did swear no such thing , nor never a word of any such thing as a protestant plot , or a presbyterian plot , and pray do not believe it of me . no , said i , i thought you could not swear any such thing , because you have said often to me , you believed there was no such thing . i do not believe it yet , said he , and as to whatsoever colledge said , i did not believe it , for he did not believe it himself . and mr. smith told me after his return that he did not know of any protestant concerned in the plot. l. c. j. he does not say now 't is a protestant plot. mr. s. smith . so far from that , that he told me after his return he did not know any protestant concerned in the plot. l. c. j. mr. smith , thus i understand you . you say that he said to you , that he had not testified any thing of a protestant plot , nor did believe there was any protestant plot , for he did not believe what colledge said himself : so by that discoure it seems he did not deny , but he had testified against mr. colledge , but he did not believe there was any protestant plot ? mr. s. smith . no , my lord , he did not deny but he had sworn against colledge . mr. just jones . nor that what he had said against colledge was true ; mr. s. s. no my lord , but he did not believe him , and he thought colledge did not believe it himself . mr. ser. jeff. it seems mr. colledge thinks the whole protestant interest concerned in him . l. c. j. the question is mr. colledge what you had in your mind , not what was in the mind of all the protestants . mr. s. s. this i do say , i would not speak more nor less than the truth , he did not deny , but he had heard colledge speak those words he swore , but he did not believe him , and i think mr. smith hath said that at another time before mr. gardner . coll. if he knew of no protestant plot , it was very unlikely that i should attempt such a thing my self . mr. s. s. my lord , i find mr. smith hath been very passionate and very inveterate of late against other men that he hath given me a very good report of before ; and when i was talking of this , i was saying , if it be true that people say of you , a man goes in danger of his life to converse with you . mr. smith , said he , i do not care for all the men between wapping and charing-cross , there is never a man that will forbear my company , but would do or say as much as colledge hath done or said . mr. j. smith . 't is true , and i say so still . coll. 't is a contradiction in it self , that there should be such a design and none but my self to do it . god my righteous judge knows my innocency . mr. just . jones . you might say those words in hopes they would be of your party and made so by your libels and poysonous pictures . l. c. j. come , call another witness . colledge . call mr. tho. gardner . but my lord , how likely is it that i should say , that i would seize the king , when he it seems says , he did not believe there was one man to stand by me ? l. c. j. what say you to this gentleman ? coll. i never saw him in my life . mr. gardner . nor i you , sir. colledge . i know not three of all that come here . l. c. j. well , will you ask him any thing ? coll. pray , do you know mr. smith ? mr. gardner . yes . coll. what do you know of him ? can you say any thing concerning this matter that is sworn against of treason ? mr. gardner . my lord , this day fortnight i think it was , mr. s. smith , the gentleman that was just now up before me , sent for me to the rummer in queen-street to drink a glass of wine , where , when i came , i found him and mr. j. smith that is here , whom they call narrative smith , talking very briskly concerning one colledge , i suppose that is the gentleman , and the jury that acquitted him , and he said that two or three of the jury-men were rascals and villains ; and , says he , they talk up and down the town as if i did intend to sham the popish plot , and to make a protestant plot ; which , said he , i vow to god , and i will justifie it before god , and all the world , that i know of no protestant plot , nor is there any protestant concerned in a plot to my knowledge , but this colledge , and upon his tryal i believe he will be made appear to be more a papist than a protestant ; but says mr. smith to him , now you are known to be a witness in this case , it will be a dangerous thing for a man to converse with you . coll. will it be now known that i am a papist ? no man could ever say so in this world. mr. gardner . says he , i care not what all the world says of me , and i do not value all the men from wapping to charing-cross , but that man that will shun my company , will say and do as much to the king as colledge hath done . but then i was saying , methinks it seems an improbable thing , that such a man as colledge should seize upon the king , or provide barrels of powder , and those other things . upon my word , said he , with some passion , clapping his hand upon his breast , when mr. colledge did say it , i did not believe a word of it ; and upon my faith i believe colledge himself did not believe it when he told me so . colledge . do you know any thing more , sir ? mr. gardner . no indeed , mr. colledge . colledge . call dr. oates again l. c. j. well , what say you to him ? coll. pray , dr. oates , mr. smith charges me that i should speak some treasonable words that time that alderman wilcox gave you a treat at the crown-tavern , you were there , and pray how long ago was it ? dr. oates . my lord , i heard mr. smith speaking of it at the old-bailey , and if you please to take notice , it was thus ; this summer was twelve-month , or i am sure a great while before christmas the alderman had invited me several times to give me a treat , and i had not time , other business calling me off , but finding a time , i sent him word i would come and see him . he said he was a brewer and troubled at home with customers , but he would give me a dinner at the crown tavern without temple-bar , that was the place fixed upon ; there was mr. smith the counsellor , who had been serviceable to me in several instances , i did get him to go along with me , and mr. colledge was with us , and i heard smith swearing at the old baily , that mr. colledge and he had discourse from the rainbow coffee-house where we met , and went together . colledge . there i was invited by alderman wilcox . dr. oates . but my lord , i will tell my story , i am not to tell mr. smiths ; colledge did tell me he was invited ; said i , you shall be welcome as far as i can make you welcome . so colledge ahd i went together from the rainbow coffe-house to the crown tavern : now indeed colledge was very pleasant and merry , and as i think , the discourse betwixt the rainbow coffee-house and the tavern was betwixt mr. colledge and me ; for mr. smith stayed somewhat behind or walked before , i cannot tell which : when we came to the crown tavern we did , to divert our selves till dinner came up , enter into a philosophical discourse with one mr. savage , who was formerly a romish priest , but this savage is since pardoned by the king and is a member of the church of england , and hath been professor of divinity and philosophy beyond sea. this as i remember was the discourse before we dined till we went to dinner , it was concerning the existence of god whether that could be proved by natural demonstration , and whether or no the soul was immortal : my lord , after dinner smith went away ; i did not hear the least discourse of any such thing as he speaks of , and mr. smith and colledge had no discourse in my hearing from the coffee-house to the tavern ; and when we were in the tavern we did discourse about those two points . counsellor smith , my lord , will justifie a great deal of this , and my brother too , who was with us . but when i heard mr. smith swear as he did about this matter at the old baily , i did really , my lord , in my conscience look upon him to be forsworn in that particular . mr. serj. jeff. and he does swear you are out in this . l. c. j. will you ask him any more questions ? dr. oates . if your lordship please he speaks of mr. wilcox to be a man that contributed money to buy arms , powder and shot , i think sir george jefferies knows alderman wilcox is a man of another employment . mr. serj. jeff. sir george jefferies does not intend to be an evidence i assure you . l. ch . just . do you ask him any more questions ? dr. oates . i do not desire sir george jefferies to be an evidence for me , i had credit in parliaments , and sir george had disgrace in one of them . mr. serj. jeff. your servant doctor , you are a witty man and a philosopher . colledge . call mr. thomas smith . l. c. j. what would you ask of him now ? coll. counsellor smith , here is john smith , or narrative smith , which you please to call him , hath charged me with speaking treason at our going to dinner at mr. wilcox's , i remember you were there , and i think you and i , and dr. oates and his brother , and mr. godwin wharton went together ; i did tell mr. smith of it , but i did not stir a step out of the coffee-house with him , but went away before him : how long ago is it since we had that dinner ? mr. t. smith . my lord , if your lordship please , i do very well remember mr. alderman vvilcox , so they called him , did desire to give dr. oates a treat , with some other of his friends , at the crown-tavern without temple-bar ; but really , my lord , as to the certain time i do not remember it , but to my best remembrance , my lord , it was before christmass last , and some time before christmass last . and , my lord , i was there all the time , mr. smith was at that time somewhat a stranger to me , something i had heard of his name , and i did stay there all the while : i remember mr. alderman vvilcox was to go out of town that day ; and truly , as to any thing of matter of treason , or treasonable words ; or any thing tending towards it ; i am confident nothing was , or could be spoken , and the room was a very small room , and our company did fill it up , and the table was so big , that there was little more than for the servitors to go about , so that any man might easily hear from the one end of the room to the other . i remember there was some discourse betwixt dr. oates and mr. savage , who i think hath been a jesuit , and it was about some points of philosophy and divinity ; but for treason , i do not remember the least of it , and i am confident colledge said not any such thing at that time , and my reason is this ; i very well remember mr. colledge did set himself down upon one side of the table , and fell asleep , and unless he talked treason in his sleep , there could not be any such thing said , and if it had been said , it would have been heard . mr. att. gen. mr. smith , did you never hear mr. colledge speak any ill words of the king ? mr. t. smith . never in my life : and if i were now to take the sacrament upon it , i could say so . mr. ser. jeff. you used to converse with him , mr. smith , did he never say any thing like it to you ? mr. t. smith . good mr. serjeant , you know i can take the sacrament ; pray let us have no reflections . mr. serj. jeff. who did reflect upon you , i did not reflect upon you . mr. just . jones . mr. smith , did he never deliver you any of those pictures ? mr. t. smith . no sir , he never did . coll. good sir george don't reflect upon my evidence . it seems smith is mistaken in the time , for he says it was at christmass , but mr. smith says it was some time before . l. ch . just . mr. smith does not say so , the certain time he cannot tell exactly ; but your witnesses say it was then . mr. t. smith . i do speak as much as if i were upon my oath ; and i know what an oath is , i thank god ; and what it is to speak before a court of judicature , and i know , and do speak truth as much as if i were upon my oath ; and i do say i did not hear colledge , or any one else that was in that company at that time , speak any thing reflecting upon the king and government , or any thing tending towards it . mr. just . jones . can you remember a matter so distinctly , which dr. oates says was a year and half ago ? l. c. j. no , this summer was twelve-month . mr. just . jones . and can you tell so long ago , not only your own actions , but testify to all other mens actions too that were in the room ? mr. t. smith . i cannot tell what dr. oates's memory is as to the time , but i remember the place , the occasion , and the persons that were there . mr. just . jones . and you take upon you to have such a perfect memory , as to the actions of all the persons that were in the room . mr. t. smith . i do not speak of all that was done ; but i say i remember no such thing that was said , and i believe no such thing was said , and have given you my reasons why . but , my lord , that which i say further for mr. colledge , is this ; i do hear something pretended , as if he provided arms to go for oxford . i have known him this three years , or thereabouts ; and , my lord , i do know that he did usually ride with a case of pistols before him . and before that time i had occasion to borrow his horse of him , at the election for westminster the last parliament that sat there , and i had it then with a case of pistols . i likewise borrowed it at michaelmas last , the same horse , and the same pistols they were : i did at the same time see a suit of silk-armour , which he told me he did provide against the papists , for he said he did expect we should have a brush with them . said i , do not trouble your self for that , they dare not meddle ; said he , this will do no harm . and , as i remember , it was a suit of armour made of silk , to wear under a coat . colledge . it was silk armour only for the thrust of a sword. and i assure you , my lord , i had but one suit , but one case of pistols , and but one horse , i had two before , but they did not then make a traytor of me , that was all that ever i had ; but if i had ten horses , and never so many armours , i declare it upon my salvation , i intended it for nothing but against the papists , if they should make a disturbance , and whatever i did was with that design , and truly , by the grace of god , i would not have been the last man then ; but i see , whatever i provided my self with for that , they have turned it all another way , that it might be believed the protestants were against the king and the established government . l. c. j. those observations may be proper for you at last : go on now with your evidence . colledge . my lord , i am not a man of that great memory , i may forget it , and therefore i speak it now whilst i think of it . l. c. j. set it down in your paper . coll. smith says i talked with him coming from richard's coffee-house till we came to the tavern ; i do declare it , i went away before him , and went away with dr. oates . l. c. j. ask mr. smith that question , if you will. coll. pray sir , do you know who went together thither ? mr. t. smith . i dare not undertake to say that , i cannot tell whether he went from the rainbow-coffee-house with us , or no. coll. he says after we had dined we divided our selves into cabals , two and two together : i do declare it , as that which is the real truth , i fell asleep behind the table , if any body was divided , it is more than i know ; but mr. smith , you can tell , because he says i spoke treason to him when i was in the room , he and i in one cabal . mr. t. s. my lord , i remember nothing of that , nor do believe it , for i told you the room was so little that we could not divide our selves ; and it is impossible in such a little compass where we were , so many as we were , or of us ; it may be one might talk to another that was next to him , but then the company must hear , and whether they did so or no , i cannot tell , i do not remember mr. smith's saying any thing to any particular person , but the great engagement was between dr. oates and mr. savage , and about some questions in divinity , and that is the great matter i took notice of . coll. however , my lord , i declare it , that was above a twelve-month ago , and i hope your lordship and the jury does observe that there was no new arms were found but what were provided a great while ago : all that know me , know i was never without a case of pistols and an horse , though i was but a joyner , and there is no more that you see now . and as to what smith said about our going into cabals , that you hear mr. smith denies . l. c. j. will you call any other witnesses ? coll. yes , if it please your lordship , do you know no more , sir ? mr. t. smith . i know no other thing , if i did , i would declare it . coll. call dr. oates's brother , mr. samuel oates . my lord , thus you see smith's testimony is false . l. c. j. i do not see this contradicts his oath , for he speaks of several times that he did speak with you , one was at wilcox's , which is this they speak of . coll. mr. smith says there was only that great discourse going on in the room , and there was no such things as cabals which he speaks of . l. c. j. what do you say as to this witness ? coll. do you know narrative smith ? mr. oates . yes sir. coll. what do you know of him ? were you at the dinner which mr. wilcox gave your brother ? mr. oates . yes , yes , i was at that dinner . coll. were you at the coffee-house when i went along with your brother ? mr. oates . yes , we went with you . coll. did mr. smith go with us ? mr. oates . yes , mr. smith followed us . coll. did you hear any treasonable discourse between us ? mr. oates . not the least of a little word . coll. did we go into cabals two and two together there ? mr. oates . there was nothing at all of cabals that i saw , from the time of going to dinner ; for we came just as dinner was going into the room , as i remember . mr. ser. jeff. what do you mean by cabals ? mr. oates . that is , as i discern by mr. colledge , as if there had been cabals amongst the company . mr. just . jones . that is , going by couples . mr. oates . yes , yes . mr. ser. jeff. what did they talk of ? mr. oates . there was nothing at all spoken of ? mr. ser. jeff. what , did they say nothing all the while ? mr. oates . nothing but matter of common discourse , matters of eating and drinking , and talking of countrey affairs , there were several that had lands in the countrey , and they were talking of those things . mr. just . jones . were you there all the while ? mr. oates . yes . mr. ser. jeff. heark you , sir , were there no disputations in divinity ? mr. oates . not at all . mr. ser. jeff. nor of philosophy ? mr. oates . no. mr. ser. jeff. why , pray sir , did not dr. oates and mr. savage talk very pleasantly of two great questions in divinity , the being of god , and the immortality of the soul ? mr. oates . there was not a word of that , but only of common discourse . mr. ser. jeff. are you sure there was no such thing ? mr. oates . not that i know of in the least . i sat at table with them . mr. ser. jeff. was it such a little room that you could hear all was said ? mr. oates . there was room enough . l. c. j. people cannot give a perfect account of all things that have passed so long ago . coll. i did not hear that discourse my self , because i was asleep behind the table ; and perhaps mr. oates cannot remember it . mr. sol. gen. was it before dinner , or after dinner , that colledge fell asleep behind the table ? mr. oates . he was not asleep , to my remembrance , all the while . mr. ser. jeff. recollect your self , pray ; was mr. colledge asleep there ? mr. oates . i do not remember he was . l. c. j. 't is impossible to give an account , and therefore witnesses in negatives are of little value . coll. did mr. smith and you and i go together ? mr. oates . mr. smith followed us . lo. c. j. how do you know that ? mr. oates . for you and i , and my brother went together : you were a saying when we came out of the coffee-house in a jocose way , come dr. i will go along with you , and be one of your guard. you spoke it in a jesting way ; so you may , if you please , said my brother . and so he went by my brother's side , and i went by mr. colledge's side . colledge . do you remember how long ago that was ? mr. oates . it was the last summer , but to say exactly what month , i cannot . mr. s. gen. mr. oates , answer me this question , pray sir. mr. oates . yes , sir. mr. s. gen. from what place did you go . mr. oates . from richards coffee-house . mr. s. gen. who went along with colledge ? m. oates . he came along with my brother and me ; for he said to my brother , i will be one of your guard. mr. s. gen. who went along with mr. smith ? mr. oates . i don't know , i took very little notice of things . mr. serj. jeff. 't is sufficient that he can tell who went with colledge . mr. oates . i remember one thing : mr. smith would fain have perswaded me into something that my brother should talk , but i heard nothing ; said i , do not examine me upon such things , for i took little notice of any thing ; but this i can say , whereas he does charge mr. wilcox , the gentleman did not speak five words all the time he was there . mr. ser. jeff. he does not use to be so melancholy , i assure you . mr. oates . i did wonder at it my self , but he was not long with us , for i do not think he was there a quarter of the time ; it seems he had a son sick in the countrey , and he was going thither . colledge . have you any thing against macnamarra ? l. c. j. he is no witness here . coll. do you know any thing against mr. dugdale ? mr. oates . no , not i. colledge . then i can say no more to you . l. ch . just . call another witness . coll. call mr. bolron . lo. ch . just . what do you ask him ? colledge . do you know john smith ? mr. bolron . yes . colledge . what say you against him ? mr. bolron . may it please your lordship , the last th . of july mr. smith , and mr. mowbray , and my self were travelling from york towards london . we lay the th . at and the th . we were travelling towards london : mr. smith did ask me , if i did remember what discourse there was betwixt sir john brooks and i at ferry-bridge , when we were coming up before to london ? i desired him to tell me what discourse , and i would tell him if i did remember it or no. so my lord , he did say , the discourse was , that sir john brooks did say , there would be cutting of throats at oxford , and that the parliament did go provided , some with , some with , some with men , and they were to meet at grantham , and go together . this discourse i did remember , that sir john brooks said , they went with horse and arms to secure them from high-way-men ; and sir john brooks did then further declare , that the discourse was , there would be cutting of throats at oxford , which made them go with arms to defend themselves . mr. smith did further upon the , , , and th . of july ( and it was our frequent discourse ) tell me , that he had given his majesty an account of it , which occasioned the dissolving of the parliament : that discourse that was made to the king , was , that sir john brooks should say , there would be cutting of throats at oxford , and that the parliament-men went provided with or , or men apiece ; and he did tell me , he had given a further account , that there was a consult a● grantham , wherein it was resolved , that it was better to seize the king , than to let him go on . now , this i knew nothing of , but he would have perswaded me to have given in this evidence against sir john brooks , as to this discourse . but i declare , i did never hear it , and mr. smith was the first man that ever i heard it from , i never heard it before in my life . colledge . would he have had you been an evidence , and swore it ? mr. bolron . yes ; he said he had given an account of it to the king , and if i did manage it rightly against my lord shaftsbury and colledge , he would make me for ever ; those two persons were mentioned all along . but i do declare it , i did never hear them speak treason against the king in my life . and he did further tell me , that i must say so and so ; for if we did not agree , it would signifie nothing . but , my lord , i know nothing of the matter , i never heard any one speak of it but mr. smith . my lord , this is true , mr. mowbray was the man that was by when it was discoursed . mr. just . jones . he would have had you sworn it , would he ? mr. bolron . i discovered it to my lord mayor . mr. att. gen. when did you discover it ? mr. bolron . soon after he came to town . mr. att. gen. when was it ? mr. bolron . some time last week . mr. att. gen. was it on saturday last ? mr. bolron . it was the beginning of the week . mr. serj. jeff. thou art such a discoverer . mr. bolron . my lord , 't is very true what i say . if i had known any such thing , i would have discovered it . mr. serj. jeff. thou wouldest have discovered it before that time , of my conscience . colledge . my lord , he hath been an evidence against the papists as well as mr. smith , and therefore pray sir george don't make your flourishes upon him . mr. serj. jeffer . he was an evidence , but he had the misfortune never to be believed . mr. att. gen. do you know any thing of any pictures of mr. colledges making ? have you seen raree shew ? mr. bolron . never in my life . mr. att. gen. did you not shew it in oxford ? mr. bolron . no , never in my life . mr. serj. holloway . did you never declare to any gentleman of oxford , that colledge made this picture ? mr. bolron . i have seen the character of a popish successor , but i never saw raree shew . mr. serj. hollow . here is the very gentleman , my lord , that will make oath of it . mr. bolron . he was supposed to make them , i did not know that he did . mr. ser. jeff. i do only desire one thing , i do not say , that you ever had raree shew , but did you ever tell any body that colledge made any of these pictures ? mr. bolron . i have heard of such a paper , but i did never see it in my life . mr. ser. jeff. do you know that gentleman , mr. bolron ? mr. bolron . i know him not . mr. ser. jeff. i would ask you , whether you ever had any discourse with that gentleman ? mr. bolron . never in my life . then the gentleman was sworn , being a master of arts. mr. ser. jeff. what is the gentlemans name ? mr. serj. holloway . mr. charlett of trinity colledge . mr. serj. jeff. pray sir , do you know that person there ? mr. charlett . my lord , in the new coffee-house that was by the schools , that was set up in the parliament-time , there was a gentleman that is in the court ( i think ) one mr. dashwood , and one mr. box were there together to drink a dish of coffee , and and hearing that some of the evidence were there , we desired their company up , and that gentleman was one ; and among other discourse , they were speaking of some pictures , and they shewed us the picture of the tantivies . mr. serj. jeff. did this man shew it you ? mr. char. this very man ; it was the pictures of the tantivies and the towzer , and he told me they were made by colledge , he was a very ingenious man. mr. bolron . i know nothing of it , the character of a popish successor i have seen , but never the other , i never shewed him any such thing . then the pictures were shewen him . mr. charlett . it was something like this , but i cannot say for any of the other . mr. bolron . the charcter of a popish successor , i say i have seen , and colledge himself hath told me he made the character of a popish successor , i do not deny that i have seen that . l. ch . just . would you ask him any more questions ? mr. bolron . my lord , i have something more to say concerning mr. brian hains ; in january , february and april last , several times i was in his company , and i heard him say , he knew nothing of a popish plot , nor of a presbyterian plot neither , but if he were to be an evidence he did not care what he swore , but would swear and say any thing to get money . mr. just . jones . did he tell you so ? mr. bolron . yes , i did hear him say , to day he would be a papist , to morrow a a presbyterian , he did not care for religion , he would never die for religion , he would be of that religion that had the strongest party . my lord , he told me so at my own house in fleet-street . colledge . he would say any thing for money , pray my lord take notice of that , for so i find he does . mr. bolron . then there is dennis macnamarra , and john macnamarra . mr. serj. jeff. we have nothing to say to them . colledge . they have been evidences against me , though you do not now produce them , they are all in a string , but they are not now brought because my witnesses are prepared to answer them . l. c. j. will you call your next witness . coll. mr. mowbray , pray , sir , do you know narrative smith , as he calls himself ? mowbray . yes , my lord. colledge . what do you know of it ? mowbray . i came up from york with him when i returned , after i was commanded down upon the kings account to give in evidence against sir miles stapleton , he came to me the third of august , and called at my house in yorkshire , and was very importunate for me to come up to london with him , for he said , he had a letter come to him which commanded his presence at london very suddenly , and he produced that letter which he said came from a gentleman of the court , or some court dependent ; so he read the letter in mr. bolrons hearing . we set forward on sunday , and upon our journey to london he told me he had something of importance to impart to me , so upon the road he began to discourse of the parliament , and of the illegal proceedings and arbitrary power of the two last parliaments , he said their proceedings were very illegal and arbitrary , and he began to open some of the votes , as that which they voted , that those that should lend the king money upon the crown lands , should be enemies to the king and kingdom , and those that counselled the king to dissolve the parliament ; and he repeated many votes ; and , said he , these are signs of arbitrary power , and certainly they design to take off the king ; so he proceeded further , to ask me what was the discourse of sir john brooks when we came up before , and he did much importune me to say , that sir john brooks did affirm there would be cutting of throats at oxford , and that the king was to be seized there . i told him , i could have no plausible pretence , because i had no acquaintance with sir john brooks , nor did i come up with him ; upon which he applied himself to mr. bolron , and importuned him for the same , he asked me who i came up with , i told him , i came up with three members of parliament , my lord fairfax , sir john hewly and mr. stern ; he asked what discourse we had upon the road ? and he asked , whether they had any discourse that tended to justifie their former votes ? for he said , if they did think to justifie any thing of those votes , or if they would not allow the king money , and stood upon the bill of exclusion , he said , that was pretence enough for any man to swear that there was a design against the king , and that the king was to be seized at oxford . coll. an excellent pretence indeed , and like the rest . mowbray . he would have tempted me to swear against my lord shaftsbury the same . and he said , it would be well if i did appear on colledges tryal at oxon. for it was a thing of great consequence ; the popish plot was thrown out of doors , and no man was looked upon that did speak of it . mr. just . jones . was all this in the presence of mr. bolron ? mowbr . no , my lord , when he was discoursing about sir john brooks , mr. bolron rid up to us , and he applied himself to him , because i told him i had no plaufible pretence to swear against him , having no acquaintance with him . mr. serj. jeff. pray , sir , let me ask you one question ; when came you from york ? mowb. we set forward the third day of august from wentbridge . mr. ser. jeff. pray who came with you in the company ? mowb. mr. bolron . mr. ser. jeff. that was a sunday , as i take it . mowb. yes . mr. ser. jeff. then pray , how long did you continue before you came to london ? mowbr . i think we came in on the thursday after . ser. jeff. when was the first time mr. smith came into your company ? mowbr . upon the road on sunday . ser. jeff. was that the first time ? mowbray . yes , he had been at york , and went further , and afterwards came to us . ser. jeff. when did you come from york . mowb. about the thursday before , if i be not mistaken . ser. jeff. was it in a week before . mowb. yes , within a week it was . ser. jeff. and you and mr. bolron came together . mowb. yes . ser. jeff. and you left mr. smith behind . mowb. yes . ser. jeff. and he overtook you upon the road . mowb. yes : he was to go further into the north as soon as the tryal of sir miles stapleton was over ; and therefore he did very much importune me to stay in the countrey till he came to go up with me . ser. jeff. what day was the tryal of sir miles stapleton . mowbr . on the monday before . ser. jeff. you are sure of that , and that mr. smith went further into the north. mowbr . i see him take horse . ser. jeff. but he did not come into the company of you and bolron till the sunday after that . mowb. see ye , sir , he did desire me to stay in the countrey till he came , for he had a business of great concernment to impart to me , but it would be a week or a fortnight ere he came , but yet he came in a shorter time ; for he said he had received a letter that brought him up . ser. jeff. you are sure of this . mowb. yes . ser. jeff. and you did not see him from the monday before , till that sunday . mowb. no , no. ser. jeff. now then , i ask you where was that place that he met with you . mowbray . at wentbridge . ser. jeff. and then you came from thence towards london the next day . mow. yes . ser. jeff. now would i desire to know of you , for i perceive he did attack you to say something against sir john brooks , and finding that you could not do it , because you had no acquaintance , he applied himself to bolron . i would know , was it between that place and london . mowb. yes , it was . ser. jeff. and after the third of august . mowb. yes , it was after we set out . ser. jeff. i thought it had been the th . of july that you set out , and continued your journey the , , , , and th . alas , we have lost a great deal of time between bolron and mowbray . bolron said it was the th . they lay at such a place , and you are gotten to the third of august ; you are mistaken certainly , as to point of time . mowb. see , sir , i will look in my almanack , 't is all set down there . ser. jeff. let us see now if your oxford journey be as well set down , as your journey to london is . mowb. here is my almanack , sir. mr. jones . here , look upon his almanack . ser. jeff. mr. jones , i don't care for his almanack , i had rather mowbray and bolron could bring their almanacks together , and i would have them compared , to see whether the third of august in one , be the th . of july in the other . did you discourse with him upon the road the third of august , and not before ; and bolron that came up with you , discourse with him the th . of july . mowb. i am mistaken , i find . ser. jeff. ay , that you are , one of you most grosly . mowbray . see , sir , here is my almanack , whereby . i find that it is my mistake ; but pray see , sir , here it is set down ; the day we came out was the th . the day we came to london was the th . mr. ser. jeff. how didst thou set out the third of august from that place , and yet come to london the th . of july . mowbray . i will refer my self to mr. smith , as to the time we came up , and here is my almanack . mr. ser. jeff. i will believe thy almanack to speak truth , though it have never so many errors about the changes of the weather , sooner than i will believe thee . coll. i perceive the man is mistaken in the month and the time ; but pray , my lord , will you please to see , for justice sake , if the almanack be new writ . lo. c. j. look you , here is the matter , mr. colledge , he was asked again and again , what day it was , and he was positive to the third of august . coll. he was mistaken , but his almanack is right . l. c. j. he speaks rashly , that is the best can be said . mowb. it was a mistake of mine , sir george , but my almanack is right . mr. ser. jeff. nay , mr. mowbray , don't enter into dialogues with me , i only make a little observation upon your almanack . mowbray . it was only my mistake . l. c. j. you are a rash man to affirm so : if you had an almanack , you should have consulted it , or referred to it . mr. ser. jeff. nay , we have lost a day even by your almanack ; for yours says it was the th . you came to town , bolron the th . mowb. i refer my self to mr. smith , he can't deny but he came up with us at that time . ser. jeff. you were examined at sir miles stapleton's tryal , was you not , mowbray ? mowb. i was an evidence there . ser. jeff. did the jury believe you ? mowbr . they did acquit sir miles stapleton . coll. that is nothing to the purpose ; so was mr. smith too . l. c. j. would you ask any thing further ? coll. call mrs. mary bolron . l. c. j. if you have any more witnesses , pray call them . mr. just . jones . mowbray , was bolron's wife by when this discourse was ? mowbr . no , she was in town , she did not go down with him at all . lo. ch. just . are you bolron's wife ? mrs. bolron . yes . l. c. j. well , what do you ask her ? colledge . mrs. bolron , pray do you know mr. john smith ? mrs. bolron . yes , i do know him . colledge . what can you say of him ? mrs. bolron . he sent several times for my husband and mowbray to my house , something he would have them be concerned in , some business he had in hand . lo. ch . just . when was that ? mrs. bolron . within this three weeks , since he came up from york assizes . colledge . you may see there was an understanding between them then . mr. just . jones . did they go accordingly ? mrs. bol. now and then they have gone to him , but they knew his business , because they had discourse with him , as they said , upon the road , and they would not go . l. c. j. would you ask her any thing else ; what do you know more ? mrs. bolron . nothing , for i am not one that stirs much abroad . colledge . call mr. everard . lo. c. j. what do you ask him ? colledge . as for mr. everard , i need not ask him whether he knows him , for they know one another well enough : but mr. everard , that i would ask you is this ; what do you know of mr. smith , and of this contrivance against me ? mr. everard . mr. smith i have been to see of late , and he told me he knew of no presbyterian or protestant plot ; and when my lord howard was tried , that is , the bill brought against him , he said he wondred how my lord howard could be guilty , and that both himself and i were joyned as evidence to that jury , only to put a gloss upon the evidence ; for , says he , i have nothing material to say . coll. mr. everard . do you know any thing more concerning him , what he hath said at other times concerning me ? mr. everard . i have told you already what i have heard him say , that he thought there was no protestant or presbyterian plot , & that now of late within this little while . colledge . pray sir , was there not some discourse betwixt justice warcupp and you in lincolns-inn walks ? mr. everard . is justice warcupp an evidence here ? l. c. j. no , no. colledge . 't is all but evidence of a presbyterian plot ; therefore , pray sir , what was the discourse between justice warcupp and you , what would he have had you done ? l. c. j. i think it is not material , there is nothing of mr. warcupp in this tryal . mr. everard . if the court does allow of it , i will freely tell it . coll. my lord , the papists design is to make a protestant plot to turn off their own , and they begin with me , but if i should go , they would not be satisfied with me , they would be at others . l. c. j. there is nothing concerning a presbyterian or protestant plot in the case . colledge . my lord , if there be no presbyterian protestant plot , and others to joyn in it , how could i do it by my self ; 't is impossible i should have such a design of seizing the king , and improbable i should speak it . now , my lord , this man was sollicited to come in for an evidence of such a plot. mr. everard . that is true . l. c. j. i tell you it is not material , justice warcupp is not concerned in your tryal . mr. everard . justice warcupp would have perswaded me to have sworn against some lords a presbyterian plot , but i deny that i know any such thing of them . coll. the papists aim is not at me only , but at others . mr. ser. jeff. we have nothing to do with what you and justice warcupp talked of ; for example sake , my lord , let us have no discourses that concern third persons brought in here . l. c. j. would he have perswaded you to say any thing that was not true ? mr. everard . he did not say positively those words , but this he said , i knew seveveral lords — mr. just . jones . now here is mr. justice warcupp's same traduc'd behind his back in the face of the countrey , and it is nothing to this cause before us . coll. my lord , i desire to know what he knows of these things , and that he may speak it out , 't is a material thing for me and others : here is a design of the papists to turn a plot upon the protestants , they begin with me , and if they have my blood , who may feel the effect of it next i cannot tell . lo. ch . just . truly i think it not material to your case , and indeed 't is of ill consequence to have any man traduced behind his back , as justice vvarcupp is . coll. my lord , macnamarra told me , that that man would have seduced him to have retracted his evidence ; upon my salvation 't is true . l. c. j. we meddle not with macnamarra neither , he is no evidence against you . coll. macnamarra hath sworn against me at the old-baily , and at the finding of this bill , but they have laid him by upon some trick or other : i desire mr. everard may tell what he knows . mr. everard . i would not reflect upon any person , nor will i answer it , if the court do not think fit . coll. my lord , this is foul play , if i die my self for my countrey sake , i can do it freely , and the will of god be done ; i would have the truth out for the sake of the protestants . mr. everard . i am very willing to tell the truth , if the court think fit . l. c. j. i see not that he says mr. vvarcupp would have had him swear that which was not true . mr. ever . but this he said , if the court will allow me to speak it ; justice vvarcupp said , that certainly there was a presbyterian plot , and such things ; and that some lords , some of the protestant protesting lords must be guilty of it , and said he , certainly you know much of it , you know such and such things , therefore you may safely swear it , if i knew it ; so by argument he would first prove there was a plot and combination amongst those lords , and then said he this you may safely swear . mr. just . jones . what is this to your purpose , mr. colledge , only mr. warcup's name is brought upon the stage when he is not here to vindicate himself . l. c. j. would you ask him any thing else ? coll. if he does know any thing more of any of them , i desire he would speak it . mr. ev. concerning mr. haynes , he told me it was necessity that drove him to speak any thing against the protestants , and the hard pay and the gratitude he did receive from the citizens . then mr. jones acquainted the court that mr. warcup was just come in , and desired to vindicate himself . but the kings other counsel waved it , saying there was no weight in it . lo. ch . just . where did he tell you this ? mr. ev. in the fields near grays-inn . lo. ch . just . how long since ? mr. ev. about three weeks ago . i asked him , mr. haynes , said i , i would not draw you from your testimony in any thing ; but how can this be congruous to what you have said formerly , that you knew nothing by them ? the truth is , said he , i will not say much to excuse my self , but my wife was reduced to that necessity , that she begg'd at rouse's door , and craved some salary , and mr. rouse would not give her any ; and , said he , meer necessity drove me to it . colledge . he found better pay in another place . mr. ev. and , says he , 't is self-preservation in the next place : for i was brought in guilty when i was taken up , and therefore i was obliged to do some things to save my life . coll. pray , my lord , and gentlemen , observe what this gentleman says , haynes takes this course to destroy innocent persons for his own preservation . mr. ever . besides , he told me , there is a judgment impending upon the nation , said he , either upon the king , or upon the people , i know not which ; but these irish mens swearing against them , is justly fallen upon them for their injustice against the irish in outing them of their estates . coll. so he did it then by way of revenge . for his country-men , i have nothing of their estates , i am sure ; therefore they had no cause to swear against me . but , mr. everard , have you any more to say concerning any of them ? mr. everard . no more concerning those persons that have sworn against you , i can say no more . colledge . as to dugdale or turbervile ? mr. everard . no indeed . colledge . as to this presbyterian plot , sir ? mr. ever . if the court does allow concerning other persons ; but i would not intrude any thing but what the court shall think fit . colledge . i know not but they may come in against me ; therefore pray tell what you know . mr. everard , do you know any thing more ? pray let me know what you know . mr. everard . nothing of any person that hath appeared against you as yet , but what i have told you . coll. they may do , sir. l. c. just . and then we may properly hear him to them , and not before . colledge . i desire to know who they are ; pray let me know their names . mr. everard . fitzgerald . l. c. j. he hath been no witness here . coll. call thomas parkhurst . l. c. j. what do you ask him now he is here ? college . what do you know concerning mr. dugdale ? mr. parkhurst . sir , the latter end of the last november , when the parliament sat at westminster , several times mr. dugdale having promised me his further narrative to publish , which he printed , i met him several times ; one time i met him at richard's coffee-house , and it was towards the evening before we went away ; he told me and mr. symonds , that he was to speak with dr. tongue ; and he told us , that this dr. tongue did lie at mr. colledge's ; and he having spoken the day before , and several times , of the danger he was in of his being assassinated by the papists , m. symonds and i offered to go with him , we took a coach ; for we did not know where mr. colledge lived : he had then a rheum in his eyes , and was not well ; so we accompanied him to mr. colledge's to speak with dr. tongue . it was evening when we went ; and whilst we took a pipe of tobacco , in our discourse we were speaking of the times , and of the danger of the papists ; so colledge took down a steel hat that hung up there , which he said he had , and he said he had a quilted coat of defensive armour , and he said he had a blunderbuss in his house , and two pistols . but i little thought of any thing of this , neither did i know well what i was subpoena'd down for : but these arms i saw in his house , and it was only in discourse that he was provided against the papists ; so i put the steel hat upon my head and pulled it off again , and so did mr. symonds . colledge . did i say any thing , sir , who i had those arms against ? mr. parkhurst . at that time there was no discourse in the world , but of the danger from the papists ; and he said he was provided for them , if they did come to make any disturbance . l. ch . just . when was it , sir ? mr. parkhurst . it was about the latter end of november . i have the narrative that i printed , which was the th or th ; and i have no directions but that to remember the time . so we carried mr. dugdale . home again in a coach and gave him a pint of wine at his lodgings . l. ch . just . this does not contradict mr. dugdale at all . mr. parkhurst . mr. dugdale does own this for a truth . mr. serj. jeff. so may any body own it . colledge . where is mr. symonds ? pray , sir , what do you know of mr. dugdale ? mr. symonds . what about , sir ? colledge . i have your name here , sir , but i know not for what . mr. symonds . i can say the same that mr. parkhurst did ; that i suppose is the busisiness . all i know of it is this : i was with mr. parkhurst and mr. dugdale at richards coffee-house some time in november , i think it was about the printing of mr. dugdales further information ; and mr. dugdale was saying dr. tongue had sent for him , but spoke as if he was fearful of some danger in going alone ; so we proffered to go along with him , and we took a coach at the coffee-house-door , and went with him to dr. tongue , who lodged at mr. colledges . when we came into the room , mr. parkhurst and i thought fit we should in civility withdraw , which we did ; and mr. colledge brought us down into another room , where we sat and took a pipe of tobacco , and talking about the common discourse of the times , about the papists and the danger from them , there hung up in mr. colledges room some arms ; what they were , i dare not charge my memory with to swear particularly , but i do think there was a silk coat of mail , and there was a cap of steel , and , as i take it , it was covered with cloth or some such thing ; what else i can't well say : i think there was a blunderbuss and a case of pistols : and all the discourse that i remember then , was only this ; speaking of the papists , and some fears as if there would be an insurrection amongst them , said he , let the papist rogues begin when they will , i am ready to defend my self for one . this is all i know . colledge . pray , sir , how long ago was this ? dr. tongue died before christmas at my house . mr. symonds . i cannot tell exactly when it was ; but during the session of parliament i am sure it was , and as i take it , in november the latter end . coll. so then , pray , my lord , see that these arms they charge me withal , were provided before christmas . l. c. j. but there is nothing that contradicts dugdale's testimony in this . coll. it does sufficiently contradict him . l. c. j. i do not see that this does at all contradict what he hath said ; but do you observe what you will upon it , when you come to make your defence . stranger . a gentleman below desires you to call mr. yates . coll. pray , sir , what do you know concerning dugdale ? mr. yates . i know that mr. dugdale sent for me to a coffee-house to bespeak a pistol for you , and told me that when i had made the pistol , i should deliver it to mr. colledge . and mr. dugdale promised to pay for it when i had done it . now some time after i did some small matter for mr. dugdale , cleaned his pistols , or some small business ; and mr. dugdale asked me if i would drink a pint of wine , which i agreed to ; and being at the tavern , mr. dugdale asked me if mr. colledges pistol were done . i told him no , it was not as yet . so i asked mr. dugdale , because he had promised to give mr. colledge a pistol , what obligation there was betwixt mr. colledge and him , that he should give him a pistol ? to which he answered , that mr. colledge had been serviceable to him in lending him a pair of pistols to ride withal sometimes . so he gave him a pistol to satisfie him for the wearing of his pistols now and then . i thought , said i , mr. colledge did impose upon your good nature too much , not but that i believe mr. colledge is a very honest man , and stands up for the good of the king and the government . yes , said mr. dugdale , i believe he does , and i know nothing to the contrary . mr. att. gen. when was this ? mr. yates . a little after the parliament sat at oxford ; for i never knew mr. colledge before mr. dugdale set me a work for him . coll. mr. yates , pray was there nothing in the coffee-house about one that he asked to go with him , when he said he knew nothing against me ? mr. yates . i heard one say — mr. ser. jeff. you must speak your own knowledge , you must not tell a tale of a tub of what you heard one say . yates . i heard it affirmed — mr. ser jeff. but by whom ? yates . by a person in the coffee-house . ser. jeff. who was that person ? yates . by one of the servants of the house . l. c. j. that is no evidence at all : if you know any thing of your own knowledge , speak it . ser. jeff. is he here ? yates . no , i think not . mr. ju . jones . how long do you think we must sit here to hear other peoples stories . l. c. j. if you know any thing of your own knowledge , i say , speak it . mr. att. gen. pray let me ask you that question again : when was this that he said he believed he was an honest man ? yates . it was about three weeks after the parliament sat at oxford . coll. then he does me wrong now ; for if i were an honest man then , it cannot be true that he says of me . l. c. j. who do you call next ? colledge . pray , my lord , who hath been sworn against me ? l. c. j. there is stephen dugdale , john smith , bryan haynes , edward turbervile , sir william jennings , and mr. masters . colledge . call mr. clayton . my lord , at his house it was i lay in oxford , and that dugdale says i spake some of the treasonable words : pray sir , do you know what time i came to oxford ? mr. clayton . i remember it very well , it was at the time the parliament sat at oxford , about two or three days after it began . coll. pray what arms did i bring to your house , sir ? mr. clayton . as to the matter of arms , ther was no other but a sword and a pair of pistols ; a pair of pistols in his holsters , and his sword by his side . mr. att. gen. was there no silk armor ? mr. clayton . i saw none , if it please you ; such a thing might be . coll. my lord , i continued at his house from my coming in to my going out , and that was till after the parliament was dissolved ; and i came after they were sat : but heark you , mr. clayton , mr. dugdale says he was with me at your house : did you ever see him there ? mr. clayton . i remember i have seen dugdale at my house , but never in your company . colledge . did you sell any mum ? mr. clayt . no , i never did sell any in my life . colledge . because he says we had mum there . mr. clayton . i never saw him there with you , nor changed any word with him , as i know of . l. c. j. was he never in the company of colledge at your house ? mr. clayton . not that i saw . mr. just . jones . you don't know all the companies that come into your house . coll. my lord , i am told there are some that came from the town where i was born that know me , and have known me this or years together , if you think that material for me to prove whether i am a protestant or no. lo. ch . just . if you will make out that , you may . but 't is your loyalty that is in question . if you will produce any that can make it appear , that you use to honour the king in your discourse , or so , that is something . coll. if i am a protestant , then the design is plain , these men swear to make a protestant plot , and turn the plot off the papists . mr. serj. jeff. what church do you frequent in london to hear divine service ? colledge . i have received the sacrament several times , sir george . mr. serj. jeff. when were you last at the publick church ? colledge . i hope i may be a protestant if i have not gone thither ; but however , i do use to go to church . lo. ch . just . well , call whom you will. colledge . is thomas deacon there ? mr. deacon . yes . coll. he lives , my lord , in the parish where i was born . if you please mr. deacon to give my lord an account what you know of me from my childhood . mr. deacon . i have known mr. colledge ever since he was a youth , he was born in the town where i live . l. ch . just . where is that ? mr. deacon . at watford , a town in hertfordshire . there he lived till he was a man , and married a neighbours daughter of mine , and lived there while he had two children ; i never knew but that he was a very honest man , frequented and kept to the church of england all along , and paid every man his own . mr. att. gen. how long is it ago since he left that place ? mr. deacon . i can't directly tell how long it is truely , but i think 't is eighteen years since you left watford . coll. 't is fourteen years ago . mr. just . jones . you say fourteen , and they say eighteen . mr. deacon . i say , i cannot exactly tell . coll. but mr. deacon , i have been in your country lately . mr. deacon . he used to come there once or twice a year generally to see his friends i have heard him delare himself against the popish church always very much . l. c. j. did you never hear him talk against the government ? mr. deacon . no , never in my life . mr. ser. jeff. nor against the king : mr. deacon . nor against the king. mr. just . jones . was he in your country the last easter ? mr. deacon . i think it was about easter he was there . mr. just . jones . was he at church there then , and received the sacrament ? mr. deacon . i know not whether he was there of the lords-day or no : he did quarter at another town , at bushy , where he has a brother-in-law . l. c. j. well , call another . coll. mr. whitaker . l. c. j. what is your christian name ? mr. whitaker . william . l. ch . just . what do you ask of him ? coll. whether he knows me and my education . mr. whitaker . sir , i have known him this six and twenty years . i knew his parents , i know his mother , she lives now at watford . i have known his behaviour to be very civil and good ; a very good church-man he was when he lived with us ; and i have inquired , and find he has the same reputation in the parish where he last lived in black-fryers : he was no jesuit nor papist , i dare aver ; he hath flouted them & mocked them with their wooden gods , and the like ; for he never could endure that perswasion . l. c. j. he is not questioned for that , but for treason . coll. did you ever hear me speak any thing against the government ? mr. whitaker . i never knew of any ill behaviour of him in my life . coll. but did you ever hear me say any thing against his majesty or the government ? mr. whitaker . never that i know of . i knew him a souldier for his majesty , in which service he got a fit of sickness , which had like to have cost him his life ; he lay many months ill , to his great charge . mr. serj. jeff. where was it he was in his majesties service ? mr. whitaker . at chatham-business . coll. it was under my lord rochester . but , my lord , i have a testimonial under the hands of seventy people of watford , to give an account of my good behaviour . mr. just . jones . he hath been gone thence these eighteen years . mr. whitaker . he hath come there almost every half year , sometimes three or four times in a year , because his mother lives there now , and he came to pay his respects to her . his children lived and went to school with us . l. c. just . come , who do you call else ? colledge . mr. neal. mr. neal. i can say no more than the other men before me . i know the man , he was bred and born at watford , he lived there several years , he married a wife out of the neighbourhood , frequented the publick worship . l. c. j. how long ago is this ? mr. neal. sixteen or seventeen years ago . but then he used to come once or twice a year into the countrey . coll. did you ever hear me speak any thing against the king or the government . mr. neal. no , never in my life . coll. how long is it ago since you were in my company last ? mr. neal. when you were in town last i never heard you say any thing that was ill . colledge . how long is it ago since we were at the white hart together ? mr. neal. it was about spring . coll. i said right , my lord , i was there about easter . pray did you ever hear me speak for the king ? mr. neal. truly the discourse we had i never used to keep in my mind , but i never heard him speak any thing against the king or the government . l. c. j. were you much conversant with him ? mr. neal. when he came down to give his mother a visit , and see his neighbours , we used always to see one another . coll. pray will you call mr. tanner and mr. remington . [ mr. remington stood up . ] mr. remington . i say i have known stephen colledge these forty years , and i have known that he was always an honest man. he was a souldier some time , but he always went to church , was no conventi●ler ; and used to visit his neighbours when he came down to see his mother , and was always looked upon to be a very good man. mr. serj. jeff. you say you knew him a souldier , pray when was that ? mr. remington . about the time of harwich business . that is all i can say . [ then mr. tanner stood up . ] lo. ch . just . come , what say you ? what do you ask him mr. colledge ? mr. tanner . i have known stephen colledge from a child forty years , he was born at watford , his father worked with my father , and great intimate acquaintance we had with him , and saw him very often ; i never knew any fault in him , and i never heard a bad report of him in all the town of watford . mr. ser. jeff. have you seen him at church lately ? mr. tanner . no , i have not . mr. att. gen. i would fain know whether this man hath been at church himself ; he looks as if he had not . coll. i know not whether he hath been at the church you mean or no ; but he may be an honest man and a protestant for all that . lo. ch . just . call another . coll. mr. peter norreys . l. ch . just . what do you ask him , mr. colledge ? here he is . coll. do you know any thing concerning mr. smith ? mr. norreys . i was once in the hercules pillars , where was sir william waller , macnamarra , mr. joy , and five or six of us together ; and mr. smith was there , and we were talking concerning the parliament approaching at oxon. mr. ser. jeff. tell the names of the rest . mr. noreys . sir william vvaller , macnamarra , mr. ivy , mr. lewes , macnamarra's brother , and i , and mr. smith . mr. ser. jeff. well said ; we don't meddle with any of these , but mr. smith . lo. ch . just . was john smith there ? mr. norreys . he was there . lo. ch. just . well , go on then . mr. norreys . we were talking of the parliament at oxon. says sir vvilliam vvaller , most of the parliament-men are afraid to go up to the parliament . truly , said smith , i hope they will be provided to go , if they do go . says sir vvilliam vvaller , i shall be provided with the rest of my friends ; and mr. colledge said , i will go up with the rest of the parliament-men ; i shall be provided too , says most of the evidence ; says sir vvilliam vvaller , will you go along with me , and i will provide you with an horse ; said he , i have an horse of my own , and if it please god i will have nothing else to do but to go along with the parliament , and i will not neglect it . this was all the discourse of the company for that night . colledge . did you hear mr. smith say any thing against me ? mr. norreys . no , not a word at all . colledge . but this were a material evidence against others of the confederates , if they had been examined . mr. norreys . my lord , i was at the amsterdam coffee-house the . of june last , and there was mr. denis macnamarra ; said he , will you go , and i will give you a pot of ale. l. c. j. there is nothing of denis macnamarra in question before us . if you have any thing to say against any of the witnesses that have been sworn , go on with your evidence , we must not hear stories of other people . colledge . he would speak against some men that have sworn against me , but are left out for some reasons i know not . pray call mr. thomas norreys . lo. ch . just . what do you ask him ? coll. my lord , he knew me in this country some fifteen or sixteen years ago . mr. t. norreys . my lord , i have been acquainted with mr. colledge about sixteen or eighteen years , and he hath always carried himself very civilly and well , and he kept to the church for a considerable time as duely as any parishoner did . l. c. j. how long have you known him ? mr. t. norreys . this sixteen years . l. c. j. you live in this country , don't you . mr. t. norreys . yes , at aylworth . coll. i was at astrop-wells last year . i believe mr. justice levins saw me there . mr. t. norreys . yes , i was there with you . coll. vve did discourse commonly then concerning the papists , pray , sir , did you find me inclined to the popish interest ? mr. t. norreys . you spoke very much against them . colledge . did you ever hear me speak against the king or the government ? mr. t. norreys . no , i never heard it ; for if he were my brother , i should have discovered it . l. ch . just . how often have you seen him ? mr. t. norreys . very often , and conversed much with him . collede . my lord , as to the papers charged upon me that they were mine , i declare i know not of them . dugdale says i owned them , and the letter and several prints ; but , my lord , i had done my self a great injury if i had done or owned those things he hath charged me withal . i never could make a picture , nor never did draw a picture in my life ; and that very person that he says i owned i got it to be printed by , hath denied it before the king and council ; for he there testified that he did not know the person that caused it to be printed . l. ch . just . how came you to have so many seized in your house ? colledge . my lord , here is elizabeth hunt , the maid by whom they were taken in , and who can give you an account of it . i cannot deny but that they were in my house ; but that i was the author , or did take them in , is as great a mistake as ever was made . call elizabeth hunt. i do not know whether curtis be in town , but this i am confident , he was examined before the king and council , and he and his vvise denied it . lo. c. j. he shall be called if he be here . colledge . i know nothing of the printing of them , nor was i the author of them . l. c. j. they were dispersed by you up and down . colledge . that they were in my house , i believe , my lord ; and this woman will tell you how , my lord. pray tell the court how these papers that are called the raree-shew came to be in my house . eliz. hunt. a porter brought three bundles to our house , and asked whether my master was not within : i told him no , he was not . said he , these papers are to be left here : said i , who do they come from : said he , 't is all one for that , you must pay me , and i must leave them here ; so i gave him six pence , and he left the papers , but i never saw the man since , nor before . and , my lord , i never read them what they were ; but i saw they were such sort of prints as those . l. c. j. how long was it before they were seized ? eliz. hunt. a matter of seven or eight weeks . coll. my lord , it seems they were put in a box , and left in my counting-house : i never touched them , but there they staid , for ought i know , till they were taken . l. c. j. you were colledge's servant , were you not ? eliz. hunt. yes , my lord. colledge . my lord , i neither knew the printer nor the author ; but i heard a man was in trouble about them , upon a by-law in the stationers company mr. att. gen. how came you by that original ? coll. have you it there ? i know of none was produced . but if i were a person concerned , it were no treason ; and , my lord , i hope you will do me that justice , to let the jury know they are not treason , none of these papers . and i do declare i know nothing of the original , the printer , nor the author . lo. ch . just . you spend time in making observations out of order of time : when you have given your evidence , then make your observations . colledge . i confess i may err as to matter of order , for i was never in this capacity before : but pray do you tell the court how the papers came there , and all the transactions ; for i was a prisoner when they came and searched . l. c. j. no , it was eight weeks before you were taken they were left there . mr. ser. jeff. did you tell you master soon after they were left there ? eliz. hunt. no. mr. ser. jeff. within what time did you tell him ? eliz. hunt. i believe it was a week or a fortnight . mr. att. gen. where was your master all that time ? eliz. hunt. he was in the countrey . colledge . my lord , i did see them there , i must confess , i do not deny but i saw them there , but i knew not whence they came , nor whose they were ; nor did i ever intend to meddle with them , nor concern my self about them . vvhat have you to say more ? eliz. hunt. concerning mr. dugdale , if i may speak . lo. c. j. ay , go on . eliz. hunt. i went to receive the money of mr. dugdale that he owed my master , and asking him for it , he said he would pay me such a time to morrow morning , if i would come for it ; but when i came , he had not the money ready for me . sir , said i , i think 't is very hard that you should keep my masters money from him , and yet you go and swear against his life too : what do you think we shall do at home in the family , if you keep my masters money , and he be in prison ? said he , there is a great deal of do about my swearing against your master , more than needs ; but as i hope for salvation , i do not believe mr. colledge had any more hand in any conspiracy against his majesty , than the child unborn . here is dugdale , let him deny it if he can . dugdale . as i hope for salvation i did not say so . eliz. hunt. upon my salvation 't is true what i say stephens . this was the maid that hid her masters papers when they were searched for . mr. ser. jeff. be quiet ; art thou entring into dialogues with the maid now . coll. mr. stevens , 't is well known what a man you are to propagate witnesses . my lord , she gave me an account of this in the tower before i came away , that dugdale desired to speak with mr. smith , and told her that nothing that he had to say would touch my life . eliz. hunt. as i am alive 't is true . l. c. j. mr. dugdale denies it now . eliz. hunt. he is not a right man if he denies it , for he told it me twice . colledge . i told mr. smith of it , when he had leave to come to me : i told him what the maid said he had said to her , and this was three weeks ago ; said he , i will speak with him with all my heart , if he has a mind to speak with me ; for he hath said that he hath nothing against her master that can touch an hair of his head , nor nothing that can touch his life ; that he knew nothing of a plot or contrivance against the king ; and if i could help it , i had as lieve have given a hundred pound i had never spoken what i have . this he said to her . l. c. j. you tell her what to say . eliz. hunt. sir , he does not tell me ; for mr. dugdale said those very things to me . coll. this is an account i had when i was a prisoner ; i could not direct her . l. c. j. do you deny what they say to be true , mr. dugdale ? mr. dugd. my lord , she came to me for money , i told her i had it not ready , but would pay her ; and in the shop , before the apprentice boy , she desired of me that i would write two or three words what i had to say against her master , and i told mr. graham of it . so , said i , i cannot tell , i have not the papers , nor what informations i have given against him . so she came again the next morning , and she was at me to write down what i said . i wonder , said i , your master will send you ! had not he as good send mr. smith , who is his counsel ? and this was all the words we had . eliz. hunt. my lord , i do solemnly assure you , he said he would write down what he had said against my master , and would fain speak with mr. smith ; for there was more ado made about it than needs . dugd. mr. graham can tell what it was ; for i came and told him immediately . lo. c. j. did you tell her you had nothing to say against her master that would touch his life ? dugdale . i could not say that i had said nothing against her master , for she asked me that i would write down what i had said ; but i told her i knew not what was treason , that must be referred to the court. mr. just . jones . did he speak it openly or privately to you ? eliz. hunt. he did not speak it aloud ; no body heard him but my self . dugd. it was in the shop , and the apprentice-boy was by . mr. just . levins . was this after he had been at the old-baily , or before ? eliz. hunt. yes , it was after he had been at the old-baily , and after he had been at oxon. too . mr. just . levins . then it was before the court , what could be made of it ? coll. she had gone forty times for the money i had lent him out of my pocket , and i lent him that when i had little more for my self . eliz. hunt. i did tell him , mr. dugdale , if you can't let me have my masters money , if you please to tell me what you have made oath against my master . said he , i can't let thee have it now , but thou shalt have what i have to say against him ; i will draw it up in writing , and thou shalt have it to morrow-morning . the next morning i came to him again , and , said i , i am come again , what must i do ? said he , i have no money , such an one hath not hoped me to it . sir , then said i , i hope you will be as good as your word , to let me know what you have made oath against my master . said he , i was about it yesterday , but could not do it : but , sweetheart , said he , ( and took me by the hand ) i will give you a copy of it to day at ten of the clock ; and if i do not , i will tell it thee by word of mouth . so i came to the house at ten , and staid till eleven , but did not see him . mr. just . jones . you had a great mind to be tampering . eliz. hunt. the first time , he asked me who was his counsel ; i told him , mr. smith ; then , said he , i have a great desire to speak with him : so i told my master of it . colledge . my lord , you see it is but black and white , all this whole contrivance upon me : she hath proved i knew nothing of these papers , and indeed i did not . lo. c. j. do you call any more witnesses ? colledge . there is my brother-in-law that received those papers . call george spur , and sarah goodwin . ( mrs. goodwin appeared . ) colledge . do you know any thing of the papers that were carried to my brother george spur ● ? mrs. goodwin . yes , i do . the saturday after my brothers confinement , about eight of the clock in the morning , i having heard of it , came into the house , and in a quarter of an hours time in comes a waterman , and desires an handful or two of shavings . i knowing not who he was , nor what he desired them for , told him he should have them ; so he went up to the working-shop togather them , for he pretended that to be his business . l. c. j. whose waterman was it ? mrs. goodwin . a waterman , i suppose , that belonged to his majesty , for he had a coat marked with r. c. coll. this is after i was in custody . mrs. goodwin . yes , it was the saturday after . so no sooner had he the shavings , but he goes out of the shop , and comes in again with three of his majesties messengers , and they made enquiry after papers , and i being innocent of concealing any papers , or any thing , said i knew of none ; so they came to one box that had the tools for the men to work with , and they demanded the keys : i told him , i knew not where the keys were : so they went to the next , and found it open , but nothing did they find there ; there was a bed wherein formerly my brother's servants did lye . said one to the other , look well whether there be not something hid in that bed ; said i , i suppose there is no such thing as you inquire for : if you please , you may take off the clothes , and gave them free toleration to look ; but for the chest , i would not deliver the keys , because the man was not there that owned it . in their searching they flung down the wainscote , and did a great deal of damage to his goods . gentlemen , said i , i suppose you have order to search , but none to spoil a mans goods . when they were gone , having found none , they threatned , god dam them they would have them , for there they were . but i being ignorant of the concealment of the papers , i requested the maid and my brothers son , whether they knew of any papers , and they satisfied me they knew of some prints that were brought by a porter , to be left at my brothers , but they knew not whence they came , nor what they were : and the same answer gave my brother's son , that he did not know whose the papers were . but since his fathers confinement , they were laid up sure and safe , for they knew not what they concerned . upon this , my lord , my brother in-law george spur , he comes into the house , and if it please your honour , i requested him to carry them into the countrey to his house , to secure them till we knew what they did concern , and who they did belong to . whereupon he replied , my lord , that he was fearful to carry any thing out of the house ; said i , if you will please to take them of me , i will carry them out of the house for your security , because his wife looked every hour ( being with child ) when she should be delivered , and he was fearful of troubling her . so i carried them out of the house , and delivered them to him . l. c. just . to whom ? mrs. goodwin . to my brother-in-law mr. george spur. so at my going out , after i had delivered them to him , in my way back again . i found a small paper-book , and a small parcel of writings ; who dropped them , or who laid them there , i cannot tell . but taking them up unadvisedly , i put them among the prints , which i carried out ; i delivered them to my brother-in-law . this is all i have to say as to the papers . stevens . three parts of what she hath said is false . mr. serj. jeff. well , hold you your tongue . stevens . mr. atterbury is here , my lord , that searched the house . atterbury . be pleased to give me my oath , i will tell you what passed . mr. att. gen. we don't think it material , but you were sworn before , stand up . l. c. j. tell the manner of finding the papers . this woman gives us an account of a waterman that came in , pretending to fetch shavings — atterbury . upon my oath it was not so . the waterman was a waterman that brought me and two more of my fellows , and the waterman followed us into the yard , but came after us : and being ordered to look for papers , i did search the house ; for i had intelligence that there were papers there , but i did not find them there . but upon finding the first papers , i made the more diligent search , but could not find the rest i most chiefly sought after . mr. serj. jeff. did the kings waterman take any shavings by himself ? atterbury . we were all together , we did not move out of any one room , but together ; this gentlewoman was in the house when i came , and there was a little child , a girl , and this maid was there . mr. serj. jeff. did you come for shavings there , mr. atterbury ? atterbury . no , i did not . mrs. goodwin . the waterman did though first . coll. call george spur. ( but he did not appear . ) but mr. atterbury , before you go down , pray tell the court , did you take any of these papers at my house , or at my brother-in-law spurs house ? sewel . my lord , i took the papers , and i took them at bushy at spurs house . and this woman carried out one half to spur , and the maid carried out the other . l. c. j. when did he carry them ? mrs. goodwin . the same day they searched for them , for my brother came in at the same time . l. c. j. how do you know spur carried any ? mrs. goodwin . he carried none out of the house , i carried them out of the house and delivered them to him . lo. c. just then they were in the house . mrs. goodwin . they were in the counting-house ? coll. my lord , if they were in any other place , i know not how they came there , for this was done after i was a prisoner ; and sewel says they were removed when i was a prisoner . where is george spur ? mr. ser. jeff. it is admitted they were at your house , and taken thence , and afterwards carried to spurs . colledge . they carried them abroad , and handed them from one to another , and took them into the countrey , i know not what they did with them ; but my lord , i neither know the printer nor the author , i declare it upon my life . l. c. just . have you any more witnesses ? colledge . no , my lord , i have not . l. c. j. will you that are of counsel for the king call any more ? mr. att. gen. one or two if you please , my lord. call john shirland . and it is to this purpose , it seems very lately mr. bolron would have tempted him to have forsworn himself . colledge . my lord , i hope , if they bring in any persons of new evidence , i may have leave to contradict them . l. c. j. you need not fear but you shall be heard to them . mr. att. gen. we shall prove bolron to be a subornor of witnesses ; and that the jury may know what he is , he and mowbray have gone to give evidence at several trials , and the jury would never believe them when they were upon their oath . mr. ser. jeff. i think it needs not , time hath been spent enough already . coll. no whispering , good my lord. sir geo. jeff. good mr. colledge , you are not to tell me my duty here . mr. just . jones . it is not lawful for the kings counsel to confer together ? coll. not to whisper , my lord , all ought to be spoken out . l. c. j. nothing ought to be said to the jury indeed privately . mr. att gen. but shall not we talk among our selves ? coll. no , i hope , not of any thing that concerns my trial. mr. just . jones . you are deceived in that . colledge . i think t is law , that all ought to be publick , i beg your pardon if i am in the wrong . mr. att. gen. swear john shirland . ( which was done . ) pray give the court and the jury an accompt of bolron , what you knew of him . shirland . bolron my lord , last whitson-tuesday , would have given me ten pound and an horse to go down and swear against sir miles stapleton . i was to swear i was suborned by his friends , and several other persons , which i have discovered upon my oath . l. c. just . is this man sworn ? mr. att. gen. yes . lo. c. just . now call bolron to confront him . colledge . he offered you an horse , as much as i offered turbervile an horse , and i never offered him an horse in the world . [ then bolron appeared . ] l. c. j. is this the man , shirland ? mr. att. gen. did he give you ten pound to swear ? shirland . he bid me ten pound and an horse to swear against sir miles stapleton . mr. ju . jones . did you ever see him , bolron ? mr. bolron . yes , my lord , he was to have been a witness against sir miles stapleton , and he pretended that he was suborned by sir miles , or some of his friends . coll. what are you , sir ? mr. bolron , what is mr. shirland ? mr. bolron . he is a man lives by his shifts : he hath been whip'd in bridewel . colledge . do you know him , sir ? what is he ? mr. bolron . even an idle man. shirland . you , once when you saw me , drew your sword on me , because i would not do as you would have me . mr. bolron . i profess , my lord , 't is not so . mr. att. gen. here is mr. smith , hear what he says against mr. bolron . mr. smith . as we were coming up along , he was speaking to me of colledge , and told me , he had as much to say against him as any body ; and if i would speak for him , he would evidence againce sir john brookes for a discourse at ferry-bridge . mr. bolron . i never did hear any such thing . mr. smith . no man in your own country will believe you . colledge . they believed you no more , it seems neither . l. c. j. do you call any more witnesses , gentlemen ? mr. ser. jeff. no , i think , we need not . l. c. j. look you , mr. colledge , as i understand it , the kings counsel will produce no more witnesses . you may make what observations you will upon the evidence to the court , and then must them make what observations they will to the court ; and then we will give the charge to the jury . colledge . my lord , i have only innocence to pleade ; i have no flourishes to set off my desence . i cannot take the jury nor the court with an oratory ; i am unhappy in those things . but , my lord , i do declare , as to my own particular , in the presence of god almighty , that as to whatsoever is sworn against me , as to the seizing his majesty , providing arms , or having any design either at oxford or london , or any other place in the world , to seize upon the person of the king , or to rebel against the government established ; i vow to god almighty , i never had such a thought in me : 't is a truth , my lord. my lord , they have sworn desperately against me , and it hath appeared , i think , by very credible persons , that they have contradicted one another . it hath been proved that it was a design ; that they were tampered withal ; that they complained they were in poverty , that they wanted maintenance ; and they did confess they were tempted to come over to swear against protestants : and now the lord knows they have closed with it , and they begin with me . i hope the jury have taken notice that i have contradicted them sufficiently in what they have sworn ; and that it is not possible , if i had a grain of sence , for me to discover my self to be such an one to haynes that was an irish-man , and should speak all the treason that he hath galloped through at first sight , that as soon as ever i saw him , that i should speak so to him ; i hope you will consider whether it consists with common reason , when there could be no probability of making any use of him in the world . my lord , all my witnesses that i have brought , your lordship can , and i hope will sum them up better than i can ; for i declare it , i have been so concerned , that i have not been able to write half of it down . but i think there is never a man that hath sworn against me , but hath been sufficiently confuted by persons of integrity and honesty , men of principles , and men of religion ; they are such , my lord , that make conscience of what they say : they are persons altogether unknown to me , most of them , as to what they had to say ; it was what they offered voluntarily ; and i am certain they have had nothing but their bare charges , if they had that , for their pains in coming hither ; and , my lord , there is no probability that they should come and attest any thing that is false , for me who am a stranger , for nothing : no man is a knave for nothing , as i believe these men are not . my lord , i do declare it , i was bred a protestant , and i have lived so ; i am so this very day ; i have been a lover of the church of england , and of all the fundamental points of doctrine believed in it ; i own the same god , the same saviour , the same gospel , and the same faith ; i never had a prejudice against any man in the church in my life , but such as have made it their business to promote the interest of the papists , and such i must beg leave to say there are amongst them : for there is no society in the world without some bad men ; and these do promote the interest of the papists , by dividing the protetestants and allowing none to be true protestants , but those that are within the church of england established by law ; which is a notion so wide i could never close with that . i never had a prejudice against any man but a knave in my life . i have heard , i confess , some of the dissenters , and i have found very honest , just , pious , godly men among them ; men free from oaths and all debauchery ; men that make a conscience of what they say : not like some persons that say they are of the church of england , that carry themselves in their lives and actions , so as that no credit can be gained to the church by them . my lord , i have been an hearty man against the papists ; i have been an hearty man as any person of my condition for parliaments , which i look upon to be my birth-right , and under god almighty , the bulwark of our liberty ; and i am sorry if any man should be an instrument to create a misunderstanding betwixt the king and the parliament : for i always thought i served my country , when i served the parliament , and i served the king , when i served my country . i never made any difference between them , because i thought them both one . i had the honour to be entrusted by them before , and upon that account i came voluntarily down hither . i rid my own horse , i spent my own money , and eat my own bread ; i was not beholding to any man for the value of six pence all the while i was here . my lord , i have ever since the plot hath been discovered , endeavered with all my heart , and all my power , to dedect and come at the very bottom of it : i have spared for no time nor pains , what lay fairly in my way , in every thing to encourage those that discovered the villanies of the popish plot against the life of the king , and for the subversion of the religion and government established by law. now certainly it is not strange to the world ; for i think all christendom is aware how plain the popish plot hath been proved . these men that swear against me , were they that used to follow me sometimes ; they would say , it was they that had come to save our lives , and yet we let them want bread. that argument , my lord , was so fair , that i thought it unreasonable to see them starve : and i have said sometimes to some honest considerable men , that it was hard they should have this to say of us , that they should want bread to eat that were the kings evidence , to detect a popish plot wherein we our selves were concerned ; and that when they had saved our blood in our veins , they should be suffered to starve . and one time , i think , some three or four gentlemen of the city did give me s. or s. and d. or thereabouts ; which i did distribute amongst them : and they never came to me in my life , but to seek relief , they knowing that i had a general acquaintance . and sometimes they thought it might be fit to petition the common council of london to take care of them : sometimes they would speak to particular men that care should be taken of them . at other times indeed it was not this sort of discourse they had with me ; but they would pretend they had something to discover of the popish plot , and so they would apply to me as a man of some acquaintance . and the first time i saw haynes was upon such an account , the beginning of march last , and it was thus : i was at richard's coffee-house at temple-bar , where macnamarra did desire me to go out , and i should hear such a piece of roguery i never did hear in my life , against my lord shaftsbury . so i did go out with them , and i called captain brown , who is since dead , to go with me ; and we went to the hercules pillars , and haynes there discovered what i told your lordship before , a design to destroy the parliament at oxford , an army that was to land in the north , another in ireland , and the duke of york was to be at the head of them . my lord , after i had heard all out , he did desire us all to conceal what he had said till the parliament sat , and then he would not only discover this , but much more . he at the same time told us , that there was a design of fitz-gerald's against my lord shaftsbury to take away his life , and he was employed to come to his cousin macnamarra to get him over to joyn in the design , and he should never want for money , if he would but come over , and do as they would have him . after he had discovered himself , sir , said i , you are a stranger to me , and i never saw him before in my days , if he had seen me , i can't tell : but , sir , said i , either this is true , or this is false . if it be true , said he , 't is all true , and much more . so he up and told us much of coleman , and of the reconciliation between the duke of ormond and the duke of york , and how he came to be lord lieutenant of ireland , and how plunket came to be primate , and by means of whom , and the letters that passed , and how so much a year was given to plunket for carrying on the correspondence ; and he told us so much , that i did wonder to hear any man talk after that rate . after i had heard what he had to say , i told him , sir , said i , this is either true or false that you have said ; if it be true , my lord shaftsbury shall know it to night ; for i will not conceal such a thing concerning a peer of the realm : and if it were a colour , he should know of it . and i did send him word that night ; and , said i , sir , you ought to go , for your own security and ours too , to swear it before a magistrate . said he , if i should , i should be discovered . said i , i can't think you will be discovered ; if you swore it before sir george treby , or sir robert clayton , they will not discover you . so he agreed he would swear before sir george treby , and he did go accordingly ; but he being out of town , i cannot have the affidavit to produse it . there was a letter sent last saturday-night to sir george to bristol , and i hoped he might have been here to day . this was the first acquaintance i ever had with haynes the next time i heard of him , was upon this occasion : ivy comes to me in richard's coffee-house , and , said he , yonder is the man that made that discovery , which i told you before that haynes had said to me ; it was about a month or three weeks before the parliament was at oxford . after the parliament was dissolved at oxford , ivy comes to me , and i think it was betwixt the two terms wherein fitz-harris was arraigned and tried : i know not the names of them , but he comes to me and tells me he had been with my lord shaftsbury , and that there was a friend of his that would confirm all that fitz-harris had discovered concerning the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey ; and , says he , my lord of shaftsbury hath sent me to you to acquaint you with it . where is your friend , said i ? he is without , said he . so we went out of the coffee-house , and when we came out of doors , there was this haynes : we went to the crown-tavern without temple-bar , it was in the forenoon . when we came there into the room , he examined all the corners , and cupboards , and places about the room , to see that no body was there . when he thought all was secure , he began to tell me he had been to acquaint my lord shaftsbury that there was a friend of his that would discover the whole intrigue of the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey , all that fitz-harris had said , and much more : and he desired me that i would intreat my lord shaftsbury to be instrumental to get him his pardon before he discover'd particularly . then i told him , i think 't is convenient , said i , that you discover something in writing , and give under your hand what you can say . he was not willing to do that . can you believe , said i , that my lord of shaftsbury will betray you ? says he , i will not trust any body ; i shall be assassinated . said i , if you will not give it to any body else , will you give it to mr. michael godfrey , sir edmundbury godfrey's brother ? you can have no jealousie of him , that he will ever discover you : said he , if my lord shaftsbury will engage to get me a pardon , i will tell the whole truth : said i , i will go to my lord and acquaint him : so i went to both my lord and mr. godfrey , and sir edmundbury godfrey's two brothers both met me at my lord of shaftsbury's house . this is the thing that he tells me ; he would have me get my lord's protection , and a pardon for treason : but the real truth is , he sent me upon this errand : so i came to my lord shaftsbury , and the two mr. godfreys were in the room ; and after i had told my lord what discourse i had with him , says my lord , colledge , these irish-men have confounded all our business ; and thou and i must have a care they do not put a trick upon us ; this may be a trick of the papists to ruine us ; and if they have such a design , if they will not put it upon you and i , they are fools . upon your lordship , said i , they may ; but i am a poor inconsiderable fellow . says my lord , i 'll tell you , mr. godfrey ; mr. colledge hath not only been an honest man , but a useful and an active man for the protestant interest . so i told my lord how far i had gone with him , and that i desired it might be put in writing : says my lord shaftsbury , if he will put it in writing , i will go once again , for i have been since i saw the fellow , with my lord macclesfield , and my lord chief justice pemberton , and my lord chancellor , and i have told them that there is such a person in general , but i knew not the man , as indeed my lord did not ; for only ivy was the person between them that my lord knew : and i told them , says my lord , that he can confirm all that fitz-harris has said concerning the death of sir edmundbury godfrey , and that he would prove my lord of danby was in it , if he might have his pardon ; and my lord said , they promised to speak to his majesty that it might be granted . but some time the latter end of the week i heard it would not be granted ; and both of these men followed me to know what they should do . said i , my lord shaftsbury knows not but that it may be a trick ; and , said i to ivy , i wonder why he should conceal it all this while , being a necessitous man , and l. proffered by the king in his proclamation . why , says ivy , do you think there is no truth in it ? says i , 't is not my judgment , but my lord shaftsbury and mr. godfrey's judgment too . he answered me again , fitz-harris hath desired he may have a pardon granted for himself and a french-man ; and if so be there were nothing in it , do you think he would move for a pardon ? says i , did mr. fitz-harris move for haynes's pardon ? how do i know that , says ivy again : fitz-harris's wife told me so . says i , let me speak with fitz-harris's wife , let me hear her say so , and i will believe you . the next day he did bring her to me to my house ; and this was the time and the occasion that brought fitz-harris's vvife , and haynes , and ivy , and mr. fitz-harris's maid to my house ; and i never saw fitz-harris in my days till his tryal , nor had any communication with him . but , my lord , she did talk with haynes , and confirmed it to me , that her husband had desired a pardon for him : why then , said i , he would do well to discover what he knows to my lord shaftsbury ; for i was with my lord , and he says he will meddle no more , unless he will give it under his hand what he has to say : and he did confess to me in my own yard , for there we were together , that he saw my lord of danby come into the chappel at sommerset-house , when the body of sir edmundbury godfrey lay under the altar . l. c. j. here hath been nothing of this made appear by proof . coll. my lord , i only tell you which way they introduced themselves into my acquaintance . l. c. j. you may observe what you will upon the evidence , as we told you ; but you ramble from the matter you are to speak to . and as we told mr. attorney , that what he said should go for nothing , unless he made it out by proof ; so must we say to you , what you say goes for nothing , further than you have proved it . now you have quitted the proof quite , and not spoke to that , but run into other stories . i would have you keep your self to your proofs , and make your observations upon them . coll. 't is , as i humbly conceive it , to my purpose but i hope my ignorance may excuse me , if i err . i tell you the truth of things , thus it was . l. c. j. truth ! why if yours , or any mans word in your case , should go for truth , no man that stands at a bar could be convicted ; for every man will say he is an honest man , and all the plausible things in the world . make you your observations upon the proof that is proper for you to do ; and urge it as well as you can , and to the best purpose you can : but to tell us long stories of passages between you and others that are not a whit proved , that is not usual , nor pertinent . colledge . i thought it had been to the point , when this man pretends to have a familiarity with me , to shew how his acquaintance begun . mr. just . jones . why , do you think ▪ 'tis an answer to him in what he proves upon his oath ? have you proved one jot of it ? not that i have heard . 't is your part to sum up the evidence on your own side , and to answer that which is proved upon you , if you can . do that , and we will hear you speak to it as long as you can . but to tell stories to amuse the jury with that are not proved , and to run out into rambling discourses to no purpose , that is not to be allowed , nor never was in any court of justice . mr. just . raymond . not one of your witnesses have mentioned any thing that you say . mr. just . levins . i wonder , mr. colledge , you should forget your self so much : for you found fault with mr. attorney at the beginning for opening the evidence , and you were told , and the jury were told at your request , that what he said , and did not prove , passed for nothing . but i must tell you , 't is much worse in your case : for mr. attorney only opened what he might prove afterwards , but your observations are upon what hath been proved already ; and yet you run out into stories of what hath not been proved at all , after your proof is past . colledge . sir , i could not prove this otherwise than by ivy , who hath been sworn against me . mr. just . jones . would you have the jury to believe you upon your word ? coll. there is no more than his oath against me ; and why my oath , being an englishman , and a protestant , should not be taken as well as his that is an irish man , and hath been a papist ; i know not . l. c. j. you go upon that ground that your word is to be taken , as appears by your defence ; but i must tell you , all the course of justice were destroyed , and no justice against malefactors were to be had , if the word of him that is accused should pass for proof to acquit him . colledge . my lord , i have given your lordship an account of these fellows conversations ; and what other proofs to make , i know not : for i knew not what they would swear against me , and i had not witnesses in my pocket to confront them . mr. just . levins . well ▪ the jury have heard it over and over again , first upon your request , that nothing is to be taken notice of that is not proved . coll. pray , my lord , then as to haynes . my lord , i do observe that there was a witness for me , that did prove he owned he was one that was employed to make a protestant plot , and another that did hear him swear , dam him , he would swear any thing against any body for money ; for it was his trade . mr. just . levins . now you are right ; speak as much as you will as to your proofs . coll. my lord , i think turbervile and dugdale swear as to the tenth of march oxon. i desire it may be proved i was in oxford the tenth of march. mr. just . jones . you your self came down the middle of march. l. c. j. i do not remember that they said the tenth of march. coll. did not the indictment say so ? mr. att. gen. it is only in the indictment . l. c. j. as to the time mentioned in the indictment , it is not material ; that is the constant rule in tryals upon indictments ; as if an horse be laid to be stole the tenth , if it be proved the prisoner stole it another day , it will be sufficient , the time is not material ; the question is whether the indictment be true in substance . mr. colledge , my brothers will all tell you that the law is so . mr. just . levins . though it is laid the tenth of march , yet if it be proved the first or twentieth before or after , it is all one : so the thing be proved , they are not bound to a day . coll. my lord , the punctilio's of law i know not , but it was the twenty fourth or twenty fifth e're i came down . l. c. j. well , go on sir. coll. dugdale says i meant by the word rowley , the king. mr. just . jones . he does so . coll. how does he come to know , that by that word i meant the king ? l. c. j. that we did ask him , and he says you used so to expound it . mr. just . jones . why , look you , he said you and he used to have frequent communication concerning the king and you did most frequently speak of the king by the name of rowley . colledge . but i say , my lord , i never spake of the king by the name of rowley in my life . mr. just . jones . you say it , and he swears the contrary . coll. i don't remember that he says i declared it so , but he said i meant it ; for if i had declared it , then it had been the same thing for me to have named the king downright . mr. just . levins . look you , mr. colledge , as to that , when any witness had done his evdence , you had liberty to cross examine him . l. c. j. would you have him called up again to clear this ? coll. yes , if you please . lo. c. j. stand up , mr. dugdale . i understood by your testimony , when mr. colledge and you discoursed of the king , you sometimes discoursed of him by the name of rowley , and that he explained that name to be the king. mr. dugd. the first time i ever heard what rowley meant , was from him ; for i asked him what he meant by the name of rowley ; i heard it before , but i did not understand it . mr. just . jones . where was it ? dugdale . at richard's coffee-house . mr. just . jones . what was the answer he made you ? dugdale . he said it was the king. coll. upon what occasion did i explain it to you ? dugdale . upon the account of the pictures . colledge . i know not which of the pictures has the name of rowley in it . dugdale . it was when we were talking of one of the pictures you brought in rowley ; and mac was the duke of york , and rowley was the king. coll. upon what picture was it that i took occasion to explain the name rowley to you ? dugdale . i am not certain . coll. remember you have an account to give as well as i. dugd. you have so many pictures that i can't remember them ; you have shewed me more than have been produced in court. coll. where had you that picture from me that they call raree-shew ? dugd. truly i received of them twice at richard's coffee-house . coll. twice , do you say ? dugd. yes , two of them at two several times ; for you having promised me one , you brought it according to your word . colledge . when was that ? dugd. i did not keep an account of the day of the month ; and another i do remember at the green-dragon-tavern you thrust into my pocket , and mr. baldwin was by at that time . and , said he , mr. colledge , you will be so open , that you will come to be discovered at last . coll. then will i be willing to dye for it , if he and i and mr. baldwin were at the green-dragon-tavern together . when was it that i gave you any pictures there ? was it since the parliament at oxon. dugd. do i charge you since the parliament ? coll. i never saw raree-shew before the parliament at oxord . dugd. i do not say it was that ; you gave me one of the others . coll. 't is strange you will stick to nothing . vvhen was it we were at the green-dragon-tavern ; dugd. we were there before the parliament sat at oxon , it was since christmass . coll. vvhat picture was it i gave you there ? dugd. it may be i can't remember which of them it was , it was not raree-shew ; i suppose you gave me one of them concerning the bishops , where you put bishop mew kissing the pope's toe ; for it was a bishop with a patch on , and that you told me was bishop mew . coll. i put it , did i make it ? dugd. you said you were the author . mr. just . jones . mr. colledge ; will you consider upon what mr. dugdale was called up about , the exposition of the name of rowley . coll. i did examine him , and he hath contradicted himself ; for he hath said at the green dragon-tavern i gave him a picture of raree-shew . mr. just . jones . he said no such thing , he said he did not know which it was . colledge . i am certain he meant that then when he spake it ; for he named it before , that he had two from me at richard's coffee-house , and one i thrust into his pocket at the tavern ; and i say i never was at the green-dragon-tavern with mr. dugdale and mr. baldwyn , nor in the tavern these three quarters of a year . mr. just . levins . mr. colledge , you were in the right just now , to manage your evidence , in opposition to the other evidence ; go on that way . coll. my lord , i don't know well what was said , for i could not hear half , nor write a quarter of it ; but , my lord , i hope your lordship has taken notes of it , and will remember it for me . you are my counsel as well as my judges . l. c. j. in matter of fact we are . colledge . my life and your souls lye at stake to do me justice ; therefore i hope you will take notice of what i have not had the opportunity to write down . i have observed that every one of my witnesses have spoken materially to contradict what they have said , to prove that this was done for money , and that there hath been confessions from every man of them ; that they were hired to do it ; that they did it for a livelyhood ; and one of them said ; it was a good trade , dam him , he would do any thing for money : and i hope then you will consider the improbability , that i should speak to an irishman who i had never seen before in my life ; and that i should at the first dash utter all that treason that he gives in evidence , i think it cannot consist with any mans understanding to believe me to be so● mad or so weak . mr. just . levinz . that is as to haynes only . colledge . as to smith now i suppose it does not come within the reach of the statute ; for the dinner that was made by alderman wilcox was made before last july was twelve-month ; all the witnesses do say it was before christmas , and dr. oates says it was in the summer ; i know it by a very good observation , because i went to astrop waters after that , and i saw sir creswell levinz at the wells : now sir you were there before this time twelvemonth . so then whatever he says i said to him there , i cannot be charged withal by the statute , more or less , if i had never a witness against him ; but i have witnesses that have contradicted him sufficiently , that he is forsworn in that ; and if so , he is not to be believed in any thing else ; for he says , he & i went to the coffee-house together , and we discoursed such and such things , which is not above half a bows shoot , and he made it i say a quarter of a miles discourse ; if i had had all the talk , the discourse could not be so long , tho' he had said never a word : so you see what a kind of witness he is . and dr. oates's brother did say , that i did go along with dr. oates , and offered to be one of his guard , and i did so , and went along with them , but mr. smith he came after . and as to what he says he is sufficiently confuted , that is , about the going into cabals after dinner ; for it is proved , that i fell asleep behind the table , and dr. oates was discoursing with mr. savage upon points of divinity ; but i took no notice of it , neither did i see smith any more , but he went away , and so did the rest of the company . but , my lord , when haynes was taken , smith comes to me that day to my house at the ditch-side , and sends in a man for me , his man ; i was writing in my parlour , and drawing the design for wainscoting alhallows church , a platform for it ; his man told me , his master would speak with me , and haynes was taken that morning : but as i understand since , it was by agreement and his own consent , tho' he hath pretended otherwise . you hear , says he , haynes is taken ? yes , says i , i do , he hath been ever since a clock before the secretary upon examination , and he was till a clock at night examining : said he , i believe he confesses a great deal : said i , of what ? said he , of some design of the protestants : said i , what , against the government ? i do not know what they may affright him into ; he is a great rogue if it be true all that he hath said of himself : he says he was concerned in the fire of london , and knew of a design to destroy the protestants then ; of a rebellion that was to be in ireland ; of plunket's being made primate , and a great many of those things : so that if he speaks truth , he hath been a great rogue , and as he hath pretended also , he was a great coward . so then i believe he may say any thing to excuse himself : says mr. smith , i wish you are safe . this was the very night before i was taken . mr. just . jones . have you proved any thing of this ? coll. my lord , pray give me leave to tell you what is proof . mr. just . jones . you are not to repeat this , unless you prove it , sir. coll. he spake cautiously to me , as if he would have intimated to me he would have had me run away . said he , i believe you are not safe , i would have you take care of your self , for you were concerned with him . now , my lord , if i had been a guilty person , i had time enough to get away ; and to prove this , i can only say this was betwixt him and i. but , my lord , you hear dr. oates says , that this very smith did swear he would hare my blood , and that was upon this occasion of my vindicating sampson , whom he had struck and abused ; and i asked why he did it ? said he , i value no mans life , if he affront me , if 't is any man in england , i value him not . my lord , upon this occasion the words rise between us ; and when he came out of doors , and was going away dr. oates said , he swore he would have my blood , and that was the occasion of his speaking that blasphemy . l. c. j. dr. oates did say so . mr. just . levins . well , you are right now , if you will go on in that way . colledge . my lord , this is for smith and haynes , that haynes should say it was a good trade , and dam him , he would swear any thing for money ; and that smith should swear , dam him he would have my blood . i cannot sum up the rest of them , for i have not them here . mr. just . jones . there is turbervile , and dugdale , and smith ; we will help you as to the persons . mr. just . levins . pray keep to the business , and do not run out . colledge . pray , my lord , i have one thing to say about smith ; he says i shewed him my arms , which i have had for any time almost these three years , ever since the plot brake out . i have been armed ready to oppose the papists , and i did my duty in the city in person in the trained-bands , but smith says these arms were to destroy the kings guards , but he does not prove that i was confederate with any other person , but instead of that there were other persons that say with his own mouth , that he did not believe there was any protestant plot ; nay , he did believe i said it only in wantonness . this is all , then how probable was it , that i my self should seize the king , or destroy his guards . mr. just . jones . you remember captain brown , captain chuton , and don lewes , mr. colledge . coll. did he swear they were all in my company at oxon. mr. just . jones . yes , dugdale did . coll. my lord , captain brown and lewes were friends to my lord howard , with whom and other company i came down to oxon. and they lay with me at the chequer , and they were in my company because they were guests in the house , and we came along together , but he does not say they were either of them armed more than my self , nor was he ever in company with us ; how then does he know we were in a conspiracy ? mr. just . jones . because you told him at london first that they were such persons . coll. i never saw lewes in my days till i saw him that morning i came down from oxon. and brown i was not acquainted with a fortnight before . this is a truth , but however they have sworn a plot upon me at oxon. and then come and prove i declared these were the men , and spoke such and such words at london ; i desire your lordships judgment in this matter of law , whether what be done at london can be sufficient matter of proof in law to maintain an indictment against me at oxon. and if not , they do not prove legally that i have spoken such words . besides i conceive 't is not a good proof , because there is but one witness . l. c. j. yes , look you , there are two witnesses , dugdale and turbervile , as to what you said at oxon. and two witnesses as to what you said at london , haynes and smith , who testifie what you said you would do at oxon. now in case you came to oxon. with any such intention , that coming to oxford is an overt-act , and the witnesses that speak what you said in london , is evidence to maintain the indictment here , and to prove what your intention was . coll. does that become an overt-act if i go to oxon. upon an honest occasion , any other occasion , though i had said these words before . l. c. j. if you came with that intent to joy with others , and with a real purpose to seize the king , that is the overt-act , and the words before prove the intention . mr. just . jones . he declared it himself by his words . coll. smith says that about a week after wilcox's dinner , i discoursed with him at the ditch side , that comes not within the compass of the statutes . then there is twice of the times he speaks of , the last day i do not remember when it was . lo. c. just . all was in london that smith speaks of you . coll. how comes that to be proof here , then nothing he says is to go for any thing . mr. just . jones . nothing will serve your turn ; we have declared our opinions once already , that if the witnesses swear true , here are two witnesses ; nay , if one were of what was done at london , and the other of what was done at oxon. if they be to the same treason , they be two witnesses in law. coll. my lord , i observe one thing upon turberviles evidence , he swears there was a discourse in the room when brown was upon the bed , but afterwards if your lordship minds it , he says , i discoursed with him as he and i lay upon the bed . before he said when brown lay upon the bed , and in the room , and afterwards when we lay upon the bed . mr. just . jones . both the one and the other . colledge . but he said first one way , and then the other . mr. just . jones . whilst brown lay upon the bed , and when he was gone , whilst you both lay upon the bed . l. c. just . we will do you no wrong , therefore if you will , turbervile shall stand up and clear it . colledge . my lord , i believe those that have taken the passages can prove he contradicted himself in that . lo. c. just . he said both . but the jury have taken notes of the evidence , and will take notice of it . coll. as to mr. masters , the evidence he gives was , he says that he and i should discourse of the parliament in . mr. just . jones . and the justifiableness of the late kings death , that they had done nothing but what they had just cause to do . colledge . he swears that i did say to him , that the late parliament did not cut off the kings head. mr. just . jones . and you said the last parliament that sate at westminster was of the same opinion with that in . coll. i dare appeal to esquire charlton , in whose shop the discourse was . i did not know that mr. masters was to be an evidence against me , and truly they have taken that course with me , by which any man may be destroyed with half this evidence , were they of good credit , let his innocence be what it will. i have been used so barbarously in the tower , kept from all conversation , and so in an utter ignorance of what was sworn against me ; for else i coud easily have disproved mr. masters , if i had been in london , and had liberty to provide for my defence ; but they have taken a course to prevent that , and brought me hither because 't is impossible i should here defend my self . lo. c. j. you have not offered any witness to impeach mr. masters credit . coll. mr. masters discourse he speaks of was in mr. charltons shop , i durst have appealed to him about it , for i know if he were here he would do me right . mr. masters did say the parliament cut off the late kings head. we held a dispute upon that which i was not willing to enter into ; i said they did not , and we did then dispute whether they began the war against his majesty : i said they did not that i knew of , neither were they the persons , but the papists that began that war , and that broke off the ereaty at uxbridge , and that the papists carryed it on to that sad issue , and put it upon the protestants , that they had the odium of it , but it was another sort of men that carryed it on . i said that i did always understand that parliament to be an honest parliament , that minded the true interest of the nation , and much of the same opinion with the parliament that sate last at westminster . but before i said this , i said they were persons altogether innocent of the kings murder , and raising the war against the king , i did always understand that so the parliament in were . l. c. j. but they were guilty of a rebellion , and are declared so by act of parliament since his majesty came in . coll. my lord , i am unacquainted with the law , i speak only my own sense of it . and my lord , i did excuse them as to the murder of the king , and the beginning of the war , that according to my understanding they were not guilty of it , and from thence i did maintain they were an honest good parliament , and much of opinion with the parliament that sat last at westminster , which was for the true interest of the nation . l. c. j. and was that the true interest of the nation , to cut off the kings head ? coll. i did argue that with him some time , and i did tell him that it was the papists that did all the mischief . mr. just . jones . but he says no , upon his oath , that when he had said , the parliament begun the rebellion , and the parliament did cut off the kings head , you said the parliament did nothing but what they had just cause for , and the parliament that sat last at westminster was of the same mind . l. c. j. those were his words . coll. pray let him be called again . lo. c. just . let mr. masters stand up again . coll. pray sir relate the whole discourse that passed between you and i , whether i did not argue with you it was not the parliament cut off the kings head , nor begun the war , but the papists . mr. mast . no , you did not say any such thing . we had a great deal of discourse in the shop , and under the arch , and the thing that was said , mr. colledge , was this . you did say to me that you did justifie the late long parliament of . and then proceedings , and you said they were a parliament that did nothing but what they had just cause for : said i , how can you be so impudent to say so , when they raised the rebellion against the king and cut off his head : said he again , they did nothing but what they had just cause for , and the parliament that sat last at westminster were of the same opinion . mr. just . jones . i did you no wrong in repeating the evidence , you see , mr. colledge . coll. did i not first dispute with you that , they did not begin the war , nor cut off the king , but the papists did it . mr. mast . look you mr. colledge , you would have had it the king began the war. coll. don't you say so , for i said the papists began the war. sir say no more to me than what you will answer to god almighty ; for i always said the papists did all the mischief in the late times : and i wonder sir you would not be so just to his majesty as to detect me for what i said then , if you did apprehend it to be as you now say ; but i am sure you did not nor could not . mr. mast . mr. colledge , it was so far from that , that i was afraid it was of dangerous consequence , and i gave some persons of honour an accompt of it , and i was sent to but on friday last , to know what it was was said , and i was desired and commanded to come down hither . coll. pray mr. masters , you are upon your oath , do me but justice , and speak upon your own conscience ; look you to it that you speak the truth . mr. masters . i will do you all the right i can in the world . coll. then before the court do you declare whether we did not discourse at that time as i said , for this discourse was at mr. charltons shop at the further end . mr. masters . no it was at the entrance into the shop , mr. colledge ; and did not we go into the arch and talk there . mr. serj. jeff. mr. masters don't trouble your self , your reputation is not upon the level with that gentlemans . coll. i desire he may speak the very truth , and nothing but the truth . mr. masters . i do as near as i can , and do you no wrong ; you did not in your discourse say the parliament did not begin the war , nor cut off the kings head. coll. you did say to me they did cut off the kings head , and i told you no , the papists did . mr. masters . i think you did say that the papists had an hand in it ; but , sir , you have left out the most material part of our discourse , which was , that you said they did nothing but what they had just cause for . coll. i do say , and it was my sense always , that the parliament did not cut off the kings head , for they were long out of doors before that came to pass , and a new unhappy war was begun . l. c. j. the war was a rebellion on the parliaments part , let us not mince the matter , and so it was declared by act of parliament ; and if you argued it after that rate , it shews your temper , and that you are a very ill man ; for they that justifie such things as to the time passed ; would lead us to the same things again if they could . therefore don't go about to palliate it , ad faciendum populum here , 't is nothing to the matter , but only to shew your principles , and the jury have heard what mr. masters says . colledge . i was then a child , and do not know all the passages , but i speak my sense . l. c. j. you should not have justified such things . mr. ju . jones . who appointed the high court of justice that tryed the king and condemned him but the parliament ? mr. just . levins . it was the garbage of that parliament i am sure , that is the rump , but they called themselves the parliament of england , and the parliament it was that begun the war. colledge . my lord , i did not know , nor don 't know that it is proved yet , that the parliament were those that did cut off the kings head. i don't know , mr. masters is pleas'd to say this of me ; but i thought no evil , nor did he understand it so i believe at that time , for he did not seem to take advantage of my discourse . i know he talked violently and passionately with me , as he used to do ; and for mr. masters to say this of me now , is a great unkindness ; for i thought he was so much a gentleman , that if i had spoken any thing that had not become me , he would have taken notice of it then . mr. ser. jeff. he did then he tells you . colledge . had i known of it , i am sure mr. charleton would have done me justice , and set things right ; but this i say , i did first excuse the parliament from being concerned in the murder of the king , or that they did begin the war , but the papists did it : if it were otherwise , it was more than i understood ; and after that i said , i thought that the parliament that sate last at westminster , did stand up for the peoples rights , after the same manner that the parliament in . did . mr. just . jones . what , just after the same manner , in raising war and rebellion against the king ? coll. after i had discoursed it thus , my lord , as i told you , it could not be understood that i thought that parliament would cut off the king's head : and therefore you that are my jury , pray consider , and take it all together , there could be no such meaning made of my words ; for i did not conceive that that parliament were concerned in those things , but were a parliament that stood up for the rights of the people : now if it were so , then the parliament at westminster were of the same opinion . l. c. j. i tell you , the long parliaments levying war , is declared rebellion by act of parliament . coll. my lord , if there hath been an act since that says they were guilty of rebellion , i declare it 't is more than ever i knew before . this is the first time that ever i heard of it . mr. serj. jeff. you are a mighty learned gentleman to talk of those points indeed . coll. my lord , i desire to know whether any words that were spoken months before they gave in their depositions , can be a sufficient evidence in law against me now . l. c. j. 't is upon the act of the th . of this king you speak . colledge . yes , my lord , i take it upon that statute . l. c. j. i tell you , as to that part of the statute which concerns misdemeanors , there is a particular clause for prosecution , by order of king or council ; but as to that part of the statute that concerns treason , it must be prosecuted within six months , and the indictment within three months after . coll. vvhat statute is this indictment grounded upon ? mr. just . jones . all statutes that concern treason . l. c. j. upon the statute of the of edw. . which declares the common-law , and the statute of the . of this king , which when you have done , i will have read to the jury . coll. then pray , my lord , let me ask you one question ; whether the statute of the th . of edw. . does not say that there shall be two positive witnesses to treason ? mr. just . jones . no , but there is another that does . coll. i am ignorant of the law , and therefore i ask the question . l. c. j. well , i will tell you , there must be two witnesses in the case , but one witness to one fact at one time , and another witness to another fact at another time , will be sufficient evidence to maintain an indictment of treason ; this was told you in the morning . mr. just . jones . and it was told you withal , that it was the resolution of all the judges in the case of my lord stafford when he was tryed in parliament . coll. they proved fact in that case , writing of letters , and offering money to kill the king ; but nothing of fact is proved against me , but riding into the countrey with arms that i had three years before . l. c. just . we will read the statute of the th . wherein words are declared to be treason coll. i pray it may be read , if you please . ( vvhich was done ) . l. c. j. look you here , to compass or imagine the imprisonment of the king , and to express it by malicious and advised speaking , when proved by two lawful witnesses , is treason by this act. colledge . now whether you will distinguish , that there must be two witnesses to distinct places or times , or whether the statute intends two witnesses to every particular fact and words . l. c. j. we told you our opinion before , that one witness to one fact , and another to another of the same treason , was sufficient . we are upon our oaths in it , and speak not our own opinions , but what hath received publick resolution in cases of the like consequence . coll. vvhat lies before these gentlemen of the jury , as done at oxon. 't is but upon a single testimony . mr. just . levins . nay , mr. dugdale and mr. turbervile both swear the same thing , your design to seize the king at oxon. and it would be the difficultest thing in the world to prove treason against any man , if the law were not so , and a man might commit all sorts of treason securely ; for to be sure he would never say the same things before two witnesses in one time , and the king would be in no sort safe ; for there would never be two witnesses to one and the same thing : but that hath been resolved often and often , over and over again , particularly in my lord stafford's case , as you have been told . coll. my lord , you say the king is not safe upon those terms , and no private man is safe in the other way . mr. just . levins . we say that the law is so , and there is good reason for it . mr. just . jones . we must not alter nor depart from the allowed received law. l. c. j. i say the thing hath been considered in other cases , and the law hath been adjudged and setled . it was so resolved in my lord stafford's case , when the judges , by the command of the parliament did deliver their opinion upon that point moved by him . coll. there is nothing of fact proved against me but a pair of pistols , a sword , and an horse . lo. c. j. we have told you the law , and answered your question . colledge . but as the case stands , if that be the law , all society and conversation must be ruined by it . mr. just . jones . pray go on , when do you think we shall have done else ? colledge . however i do not insist upon that so much , as that the testimonies and oaths of these men are altogether invalidated , by substantial persons that have here testified against them . i do declare upon my salvation , ( i have nothing else to say ) i am wholly innocent , and the jury are my judges ; and i beseech them , as they will answer me at the great day of judgment , where they must appear as sure as i stand at this bar now , that they do me right , and go according to their own consciences ; for if a man shall be sworn against by such fellows as these are , no man is safe . mr. ser. jeff. the worse , the better to be trusted by you . colledge . i am sure it cannot be thought by men of common reason , that i should speak treason at that rate that they have sworn , and to such men , men of their profession , irishmen , and papists , traytors , that have declared they have been in all manner of rogueries , murders , plots , and treasons . therefore , my lord , i cannot do any more for my self , because i have no notes , and cannot recite what hath been said for me , or against me , but i do depend upon your lordship , and i hope you will inform the jury rightly , and do me justice ; and i do pray the jury that they let their consciences be satisfied , as they are english-men , and as they are christians , to consider how the case lyes with me , whether there has not been more occasion of talking of late , and whether a slip of the tongue may be called a premeditated , malicious , advised speaking , i mean my discourse with mr. masters . he talked with me as hot as fire , he was so violent , and i did discourse him at that rate i have told you , and that is truth , as i have a soul to be saved : i did excuse the parliament , that as i understood it , they had no hand in the beginning of the war , or the murder of the king. my lord , as for the rest that have sworn against me so desperately , i must say , that if the jury did not as well consider my evidence as theirs , yet they might well consider , whether it consists with common sense and reason , that i should speak to these men after this rate , when i could lay no obligation upon them , nor have any confidence in them ; necessitous persons , that could not assist me one mite , men that were beholding to me to borrow money of me , and that eat of my cost , that i had always been obliging to , and not they to me . but i hope i need insist upon this no further , the whole nation is sensible what is doing , and what this does signifie : they have begun with me , in order to the making of a presbyterian plot , which they would carry on to stifle the noise of the popish plot ; and this is not the st , the d . nor the th . time that they have been at this game ; how many shams have they endeavoured to raise — mr. att. gen. who do you mean by they ? colledge . the papists . mr. att. gen. there is nothing of popery in the case , they are all protestants . mr. just . jones . they are all persons that have lately receiv'd the sacrament . colledge . they were all papists , and i believe are so still ; for mr. dugdale did justifie to me the church of rome in several things : and when i told him that they were all knaves and fools that were of that religion , he told me , that many of their priests were holy good men . mr. just . jones . have you proved that ? coll. i can't prove it , it was betwixt him and me , my lord. mr. just . jones . then i hope you have done . coll. if i had sworn against him , he had stood in my place . l. c. j. have you done , mr. colledge ? colledge . my lord , i only desire the jury to take all into their serious consideration ; i expect a storm of thunder from the learned counsel to fall upon me , who have liberty to speak , and being learned in the law , understand these things better than i , who must defend my self without counsel . i know not whether it be the practice in any nation , but certainly 't is hard measure , that i being illiterate and ignorant in the law , must stand here all day , they being many , and taking all advantages against me ▪ and i a single person , and not able to use one means or other either of writing or speaking . but gentlemen , i do declare and protest , as i shall answer it at the day of judgment , that as to what these people have sworn against me either as to words , or as to any manner of treason against the king , the government , the laws established , i take god to witness i am as innocent as any person upon earth . and therefore i must beseech you be not frightened nor flattered , do according to your judgments and your consciences ; you are to be my judges both in law and fact ; you are to acquit me , or to condemn me , and my blood will be required at your hands . and whatsoever is said to you by others , you are my true judges , you must give an account of the verdict you give ; and therefore you must see that you do justice , as you will answer it at another bar , where you must all certainly appear , and the lord almighty direct you that you do me true justice , and i ask no more . mr. sol. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . here hath been a great deal of time spent , and truly i think for no other reason but to divert you from the matter that is before you , and that you might forget the evidence that hath been given . and therefore i will briefly repeat it to you , that i may refresh your memories about what hath been sworn . gentlemen , the crime charged upon mr. colledge is high-treason , in imagining and compassing the death of the king ; the proof of that hath been by a conspiracy to seize the king here at oxon. which conspiracy he declared he was in , by shewing arms prepared for that purpose , and by coming down to oxon. with that intent ; this is the proof of his design to kill the king. colledge . is the conspiracy proved of that mr. solicitor ? l. c. j. mr. colledge . we have had a great deal of patience with you , you have spent a great deal of time , you must contain your self now , and let them go on . colledge . do not let him do me wrong , my lord. mr. sol. gen. i will do you no wrong , mr. colledge . coll. sir , there is no conspiracy proved . l. c. j. look you , mr. colledge , you have taken up a great deal of time , and we have had much patience , because we consider your condition , and had rather hear too much than be hard upon you ; and because the evidence was long and difficult to repeat , now we have heard you , you must have patience to hear what the king's counsel repeat , and observe upon it . mr. sol. gen. as i was saying the fact that is charged upon him , is a design to kill the king , the manifestation of that design is by preparing arms to that purpose , and by coming down to oxon. to seize the king here , and that this was his manifest intent to seize the king , the proof of it hath been by witnesses , that i think by and by you will have no objections against . these witnesses were dugdale , turbervile , smith and haynes , these are the most material witnesses to the treason ; there are two other witnesses indeed , but they are to other circumstantial matters that i will take notice of to you by and by , and make my observations upon them in their proper place . mr. dugdale was the first witness that was produced , and his evidence is very full , he proves that mr. colledge declared to him at the coffee-house here , that he was come down with an intent to seize the king , that he had an expectation something would be done , that he was armed , and that he did advise mr. dugdale to be armed too , for he was provided for the rooting out of popery , which he explained himself what he meant by it , that was the church of england , and the king and all his adherents . he came hither armed for that purpose gentlemen , and did advise mr. dugdale to arm himself too , that he did declare to him the king was a papist , and all his family were papists , he was as deep in the plot , and as guilty of the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey as any body else . this was what he declared to dugdale here , and this he swore to you when he gave his evidence . the next witness is mr. turbervile , and he is positive to the matter that is laid in the indictment , and swears to you expresly , that he did declare to him at the chequer-inn , that they came down here in expectation of some sport , that something would be done , that they did expect the king would begin with them , but if they did not , they would begin with him , and they would secure him till they had brought him to a complyance . he shewed him his arms , that he was ready to ingage in that design , and advised turbervile to be ready too . and the rather than turbervile should not be ready , he offered to procure him an horse . colledge . every man had the same arms that i had , and i had had them long before that time . mr. sol. gen. but every one had them not with the same intent , but gentlemen , because mr. colledge interrupts me with an objection , i will take notice of it now by the way . he says those arms he had before , and therefore they were not provided for this purpose , gentlemen , we do not pretend to prove when his trayterous intent first began , and how long this design has been hatching , but such a design there was , and such a design he manifested to be in himself when he made the declaration to turbervile , and advised him to arm himself , whether he prepared them against that time or no is not material , if he had them before , and if he had them first innocently , yet if he afterwards designed them for such a purpose , and shewed them in a readiness for it , that is a sufficient evidence to prove this treason . so here are two witnesses you observe against the prisoner of this matter that is laid against him in the indictment , an intent to kill the king , they both prove it positively upon him at oxon. mr. dugdale speaks to matters precedent to , for he tells you , his discourse before they came down , that they would come down for that purpose , that they had an expectation something would be done , and therefore he came down in an equipage not suitable to his profession , for you see he was by trade a carpenter or a joyner , but armed on horseback with a case of pistols , things that don't become such men to travel with , and he did declare to mr. dugdale for what purpose he came down . the next witness is mr. smith , and mr. smith is as positive and full to this matter of treason as any of the rest . col. there is scarce a carpenter or a joyner in london but hath pistols when he rides . l. c. j. mr. colledge , we must not suffer this , we had so much patience with you that we expect you should be quiet now and not interrupt the counsel . coll. my lord , let me not be overborn upon , there is sçarce a poulterer in london , but what hath pistols . mr. sol. gen. we had great patience with you mr. colledge , and did not interrupt you i am sure , but let you say what you would . i think i do you no wrong , if i do , i am under correction of the court , they will reprove me if i do that which does not become me . mr. att. gen. did not you ramble i don't know how , and yet you were suffered to go on ? mr. sol. gen. he tells you of a discourse as he came from the coffee-house to go to a dinner whither he was invited by alderman wilcox ; and the discourse was , that the king was as great a papist as the duke , and much more to that purpose vilifying the king. the alderman wilcox was a man that gave money to buy arms to bring the king to submission . he objects against this , and says , 't is impossible such a discourse should be , and that all this should be talked in so little a time , as in passing from the coffee-house to the crown tavern without temple-bar . coll. pray remember whose company it was proved i went in , mr. solicitor . mr. sol. gen. but gentlemen , when you consider , how busie a man he was , and how ready at talking of treason , you will not think , but that this man might talk much more than this ; but this i mention to do him right , it being one of the arguments he used ; and to give an answer to it , tho' when you consider it , i believe you will think it not to need an answer . but i would do him all the right i can , and now you have heard it , you will consider the weight of it . gentlemen , he tells you of another discourse afterwards that does relate to his being here at oxon. he tells you he had arms in his house , and was ready upon all occasions , and he shew'd mr. smith his arms , and told him , these were the things that were to destroy rowley's guards , as he said , which by the evidence is made to appear he meant the king by that name , his arms he said were for that purpose . that he would go down to oxon. and there he expected some sport , i know not what sport he thinks there is in rebellion ; you see what principles he is of , that does maintain and justifie the greatest and horrid'st rebellion that ever was in england , and says they did nothing but what they had good cause for . he tells smith that he thought the king would seize upon some members , and with that expectation he came down , but he was as ready as the king , and would be one in the securing of him , if he medled with any of the members . this proof mr. smith made ; and that after the parliament was dissolved , he said that the king ran away , and was very much afraid . this is proved by smith likewise , and this colledge did declare after he came to town . smith proves further , that he did wonder the king did not consider how easily his fathers head was brought to the block ; and for mr. colledges part he did declare , that he did believe this king would be served so shortly . and this does confirm what his other witnesses have spoken of his words at oxon. thus then there are three witnesses , tho' two are enough to convict a man , if they be positive to the treason . mr. haynes . is the th . witness , and he is as full as any of them . i do but repeat it in short ; you have had it so often canvassed by colledge , that i believe you will easily remember it . he did advise haynes that he should not value the king at all , for the king should be called to account for all his actions ; he said he would seize the king and bring him to the block as they did his father , with an undecent expression of that blessed king not fit to be repeated . and he said , they did intend when they had cut off him , never any more of his race should raign ; this it was haynes says , tho' there are other matters . i would take notice of one thing more , and i need not but mention it , you will remember it , and that is about the libel of fitzharris . haynes tells you upon discourse of that libel , he said , that every word of it was true , as sure as god is in heaven . now that was a libel made by a papist , an irish papist , who hath been tryed , convicted and executed for it , and the horrid'st libel it was , that ever was writ . and this is the libel which this gentleman , who is so very conversant in libels , and books of that sort , avers to be as true as god is in heaven . this is the substance gentlemen of that proof which hath been made to you ; we have other circumstances to prove , that as he came down with that intent to seize the king , and as he expected what he calls some sport , so he did endeavour to begin the sport , he did quarrel in the lobby of the house of lords with fitzgerald , some blows passed , and sir william jennings telling him his nose bled , he did declare , i have lost the first blood in the cause , but it will not be long before there be more lost . thus after he had come down , he endeavoured to begin a commotion ; for from little matters great things do sometimes arise , and when all men were possest with an expectation , such as he himself did declare , he and others came down with an expectation that the parliament should be attacked ; a little matter might have begun such a commotion which no man knows what end it would have had . gentlemen , this hath been our proof . now the objection made to this proof by mr. colledge is , that this is a popish design to raise a new plot ; and cast it upon the protestants , and that these witnesses are now to deny all the evidence they have given of the popish plot , and throw all upon the protestants . this is that he would persuade you to believe , but which i think when you do consider a little of it , it will be impossible for you in the least to have such a thought . for what are the evidence that have proved this ? who are they ? men of credit , that have been evidences against the popish plotters , and against men that have suffered for that plot , men that still stand to the evidence they have given , and affirm it every word to be true , and one of the very men that he brought says , that they still stand to it ; for turbervile who was one of the witnesses against my lord stafford was tempted by some persons to deny the evidence he had given against the papists , but his answer was , no , i can never depart from it , i have a soul to save , that was true which i said , i cannot deny it . if then the witnesses which he would have you believe to be guilty of denying the popish plot , do confirm what they have said as to that discovery , that objection is taken off , and they do stand still to it that every part of it was true , and aver the same thing ; and yet forsooth these men are going about to stifle this plot. gentlemen , these are the men the whole nation have given credit to , the parliament having impeached my lord stafford upon the credit of them , ( for it was upon the credit of dugdale and turbervile that they impeached him , for there was not two witnesses till turbervile came in and made a second , and upon their credit ) after so solemn a tryal , where all the objections that could possibly be made , were made ; the house of lords thought fit to find my lord stafford guilty , and my lord stafford suffered for it , and died upon the credit of these men . these are the witnesses , gentlemen , that this man thinks ought to be blown off with that frivolous objection , that they are persons he would have you believe , who are guilty of a design to throw the plot upon the protestants . but because he hath desired to save himself in an herd , by numbring himself amongst the protestants . i must a little observe to you what a sort of protestant he is , a man he would have you to believe , so popular for his religion , that he hath obtained the name of the protestant joyner . but when you have considered what his actions are , i believe you will a little suspect his religion . if the protestant religion allow any man to vilifie the king , to arraign the government , and to throw off all manner of allegiance , then this man is a protestant : but if this be to act the part of a papist , and if the papists could wish that such an infamy might be put upon the protestant religion , that it should justifie such a rebellion as the late horrid one was , and own such a principle that it is lawful for any subject to asperse and vilifie the king , as this man by those many and scurrilous libels seem to do it ; if they could wish this nation overturned , and the government in confusion , and the church of england destroyed , the best bulwark now in the world against propery , and the best or only refuge at this day left for the poor afflicted protestants abroad . then whilst mr. colledge does thus act the part of a papist , he does very ill to call himself a protestant . gentlemen , i cannot but observe one thing to you , and it was the evidence of dr. oates , when he did first discover the plot , and without his evidence you would easily believe the thing . he told you there were two ways they had to accomplish their design , by direct murdering of the king , or if that failed , by putting all things into confusion here , and raising rebellion and disturbance amongst us , and the way to effect that rebellion , it was by having emissaries sent among us , to work us into a dislike of the church , and by that means into a rebellion against the state. that some men were sent abroad for that purpose to preach at conventicles , some whereof were catched , and some did suffer . now without this evidence it would not be hard to believe that such there are , and have been ; for all that know the history of our reformation , do know that it was an early practice among them , to raise sects amongst us , to bring confusion first into the church , and the● in the state. and we have already found the sad effects of it . now gentlemen , if colledge have all this while under the name of a protestant acted the part of a papist , though i cannot say he is a papist , nor that he is one of those emissaries , yet i may say he is not that good protestant he pretends to be . gentlemen , i must now , to do him right , come to repeat the evidence that he hath given against our witnesses ; for mr. haynes he hath produced several witnesses , one is mr. hickman , who says he overheard haynes say to one that was his tenant , that it was his trade to swear , and he must get money by it . this ●e overheard him , standing and listning at a door . you have another man lun , that is the next witness , and he says that at the fleet-ditch , where he saw him , there he declared the same thing to him , that he would swear any thing for mony , and dam his soul rather than the catholick cause should sink ; and now he comes to prove a plot upon him that is a protestant , and in his person upon all the protestants of england , and this man would fain throw off the credit of the popish plot , and turn it upon the protestants . but gentlemen it is strange , that mr. haynes should have this discourse with lun , the first time that ever he saw him ; for i am sure his own witness lun says it was the first time , and that he should immediately talk to him at this rate is somewhat strange : but for an answer to it , this lun we have confronted with the evidence of white the messenger , who swears , that afterwards meeting him at uxbridge , lun asked him what gentleman that was , and did not know mr. haynes , and yet he takes upon him to prove , that he had spoke such words to him before . i think there is never another material witness against haynes , except whaley , who was an under-officer in the kings-bench ; and he says , that haynes whilst he was a prisoner there ran away with a silver tankard , but he never was indicted or prosecuted for it , tho' he remained afterwards in the house ; and this was or years ago . now gentlemen , i think the nature of this evidence hath not that weight , as to take off the credit of what this man hath said upon his oath , especially when this mans evidence is so backed with the evidence of other men , that i think there is no objection at all against it . for the other witnesses , dugdale , smith and turbervile , are men whose credit has not been impeached , and they have confirmed in substance what the evidence of haynes is ; so that he does not stand alone in what he here swears , but 't is confirmed with concurrent evidence with it . then gentlemen , for the objection against dugdale , turbervile and smith , they produced dr. oates to you , and he must vilifie the credit of those men , whose testimony , as to what he gave at first in discovering the popish plot , received credit by being seconded by these men . and i cannot but observe it as a strange thing , that this man comes now to vilifie the testimony of those , who have given evidence and been credited by the whole kingdom ; that he should come here upon the word of a priest to declare , that mr. dugdale was a man of very lewd conversation , and was a person that had a foul disease on him , when he pretended he was poysoned . i remember this was an objection that hath been made by the papists to him , and i believe you have heard it often out of their mouths ; but it is the first time that ever i heard it from any one that is a witness of the popish plot , and pretends to stand up for the protestant religion . gentlemen , if any such thing as this could have been made out against him , it had been made out e're now , the papists would have taken advantage of it ; and when the wit of all that party was bent against him , he could not have escaped the having it proved , if it had been true , yet dr. oates takes upon him now to vilifie his credit , and takes up those arguments the papists have maliciously suggested , but yet were never able to make out . this looks as if the doctor were again returning to st. omers , that he is thus going about to disparage the evidence of mr. dugdale , which in great measure verified the truth of that discovery , which himself first made of the popish plot. against turbervile , gentlemen , i think , there hath been very little at all objected that can have any weight with you . mr. broadgate , as i suppose you observe , has said enough to confirm turberviles credit ; for he hath proved to you , that when he was tempted to renounce his evidence against the papists , he refused to do it , he had more conscience than to do it , he knew well enough what he said was true , and as he had a soul to save , he could not go from it . this is the evidence that he gives , and which certainly serves much to confirm the truth of turbervile , besides the strict examination he hath been under , and beyond any thing that dr. oates , i think , has been able to contradict him in . dr. oates contradicts smith about his coming from the coffee-house to wilcox's dinner . he says , he did not come along with mr. colledge , but colledge came along with dr. oates , and smith followed them . but , gentlemen , you hear what smith has declared upon his oath , that they came both together out of the coffee-house ; and you hear what his witness mr. smith the counsellor says : he does not positively remember that circumstance , yet one would think he should ; for oates says , mr. smith the lawyer walked just before them , and colledge followed . mr. smith that is the witness for the king , he swears he came along with colledge , but mr. smith the lawyer being asked that question , he does not remember that . then another thing is , dr. oates says , when they were there , colledge was so far from discoursing of any treasonable matters , that he was very merry in the company , and talking innocently , but mr. smith says , he was so far from being merry or talking treason , that he fell fast asleep , and slept behind the table . gentlemen , these objections you see what the weight of them is , and how little the evidence agree one with another , but there is nothing that does contradict mr. smith in his main evidence . 't is possible they may not remember particular circumstances , whether mr. colledge and mr. smith came together , so they might come together for ought they know , and they may remember any circumstance about their retiring , but they can't take upon them to swear it is not so , and their not remembring it does not prove it was not so , and the circumstance it self is so trivial , that there was no necessity they should remember it . so then no evidence that comes from dr. oates can take off that that is given by smith , tho' if mr. smith were out of the case , and mr. haynes too , yet there is evidence sufficient from mr. dugdale and mr. turbervile , who are not impeached , and are both to the fact and to the place . there are two witnesses more that i must mention , and they are bolron and mowbray ; they swear that smith travelling upon the road with them , would have suborned them to swear against john brooks , about a discourse at some place ; but it happened , gentlemen , they differ in point of time in their testimony , the one said it was the th . of july , the other was positive it was the d. of august . but i think i need say no more of these men , but only to desire you to weigh their credit . bolron and mowbray i confess have been evidence against several men that have been accused of the popish plot , but they have been so unfortunte , as never to gain credit with any jury . mr. smith hath been believed by the whole court of parliament ; but if there were no more in the case , these are two men that never were yet believed , men that have been sworn in their own country , where they are well known , and been evidence upon tryals , but the jury have rejected their testimony : but besides that , comparing the testimonies , and the difference that was between them , is a sufficient evidence to confront all that they have said . i think , gentlemen , this is the substance of what has been offered by his witnesses against the witnesses produced for the king , except that of mr. everard , who says something against haynes , that haynes should say he swore for self-preservation ; and against smith he says , that he heard him say , he did not know of any presbyterian plot. i believe that may be true , and yet it does not contradict smiths evidence against colledge ; for mr. smith does not tell you , that he is privy to any such design of the presbyterians , that he knows of any consultations that they held , or the ways and means by which they would arive at the treason charged upon the prisoner at the bar , but his evidence is , that this man declared there was such a design , that there was a party would do it , and that he would be sure to be one , and armed himself for that purpose ; but his not being privy to any plot , or knowing the particulars , is no contradiction to what he said . this is that he has produced for his defence , and by these things he has endeavoured to take off the credit of our witnesses , and he would have you believe that he is a very good protestant though he does that which no protestant would do , and which is the papists work ; he has produced you witnesses that he has gone to church , but i do not see he has produced any witnesses at all that are now conversant with him , his own parishioners in london ; but if he had brought never so many witnesses of his going to church , and of his conformableness to the church , yet if he were guilty of these practices , he must give me leave to suspect the truth of his profession ; and i think it a great piece of arrogance for him to take upon him the title of a protestant , when he has abused that title by such unsuitable practices : and , gentlemen , if such practices as these are , which we have fully proved , are such as all good men must abhor , i cannot but reflect upon the condition of this man , whose only hopes is , that you should now forget your selves & become as ill as he is . but as that cannot be presumed , so i shall not need to say any more to you ; you are men of that consideration that can judge between things , and the appearances of them , and know very well how to give the due weight to the evidence we have given to you , as well as the objections made by the prisoner ; and so gentlemen i shall leave it to you . mr. ser. jeff. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; it has been a long time that has been spent in the course of this evidence ; whether there has been art or design in protracting the time , on purpose to obtrude upon the patience of the court , or that you gentlemen should forget the force of the evidence that has been given against the prisoner at the bar , when there has been so much time taken up unnecessarily , when there was no occasion , as i must needs say , there was not for such a tedious defence , i leave it to you to determine : but that which was truly intimated by the court at the beginning of the tryal , must at the end of this cause be repeated , and indeed go through it all , that we of the kings counsel , and what the prisoner has affirmed , that has not been given in proof , signifying nothing , and is not to be any guide at all to you . you are upon your oaths , and by the oath you have taken you are bound in conscience to give a verdict according to the evidence that has been given to you , and that is your guide ; so that what we opened and have not proved , is no more to be believed than what the prisoner has said for himself in his own defence ; and whatsoever he says , if he make not god proof of it , is no more to be regarded , than what we who are for the king have alledged , and not made out . so then this being in the first place premised , i shall take care as near as i can to save time of the court , and not to trespass on your patience gentlemen unnecessarily , in a case whereupon as great a concern does depend , as perhaps ever came to tryal at any bar : for i say 't is a case wherein the life and the liberty of the king is concerned , and that is the great concern of the nation ; the religion of the nation is concerned ; i would be understood aright , i mean the protestant religion established by law ; for i know no other religion men ought to sacrifice their lives and fortunes for , but the protestant religion established by law ; and when these things are concerned , 't is a case of great consequence : god forbid any person , protestant or other , should attempt the life of the king , and the subversion of our religion , and by stiling themselves by the name of protestants , should excuse themselves from any such crimes . for the evidence that has been given , i shall not enumerate the particulars against the prisoner at the bar , other than such as have been omitted , ( if i mistake not ) by mr. sollicitor . in the first place are the things that hapned at oxon. for you have had it already sufficiently told you by my lords the judges who are upon the bench , and who ( under mr. colledges favour ) are the prisoners judges in point of law , as you are in point of fact. they have ( i say ) already told you what the law is in relation to treasons ; that in case the treason be in two counties , if the witnesses speak to the self same treason , tho' to different facts , that will be two witnesses to prove high-treason ; and that there has been such a case , the prisoner at the bar , who he says is a protestant ( for his own souls sake i wish he were a good one ) must take notice , that gavan the great priest who was tryed at newgate , and convicted , by what evidence ? by one of them that is a witness now against the prisoner at the bar , that is dugdale , his treason was committed part in london , part in the country , of which part dugdale gave evidence ; but being both to the self same purpose , by the greater part of the judges , who were in the commission , and present at the tryal , they were reckoned a sufficient-testimony to prove him guilty of high treason : and i hope we do not live to that age , that any protestant whatsoever should come to trip up the heels of the popish plot , by saying that any of them who suffered for it , did dye contrary to law , or without sufficient proof : for if mr. dugdale was not a person fit to be believed , or if the rest of the judges who tryed gavan were out in the law , then that man died wrongfully ; for he had as much right to have been tryed according to the law , as any other person whatsoever . therefore , gentlemen , as to that matter , we must submit it to my lords the judges , who are to give you an account what the law is in all its particulars before you ; but as to the fact whereof you are judges , that is the great matter we shall apply our selves to , and for that it stands thus . here is dugdale that does give you an account what his design was in coming to oxford ; how he came to be armed as an index ( gentleman ) of his mind . and pray give me leave to put you in mind of one thing . you have first a libel produced , and read to you ; a pretended letter , wherein there are queries that have been taken notice of , and which seem to back the evidence given by mr. masters ; for there is a vindication in those queries of the proceedings of that parliament of . which he has confidence enough now at the bar to justifie too . but gentlemen , you were told by the court , and you know it , that that parliament was guilty of high rebellion : and even in those queries he asperses not only the government , but every man that has any concern in it ; for it takes notice not only of the king , but of all his council : never a judge nor an officer in the nation but is traduced by it ; and which is most material , it was the foundation of that libel which has been mentioned to you , and which fitz-harris was so justly condemned and executed for , that most traiterous and infamous libel in part of it has these queries , and a great paragraph of this libel makes up part of that libel of fitz-harris , which our witnesses say mr. colledge was pleased to affirm was as true as god is in heaven . another thing is this ; this gentleman , whose proper business it had been no manage his employment at london for a joyner , is best seen in his proper place , using the proper tools of his trade . i think it had been much more proper for him , and i believe you will think so too , than to come with pistols and all those accoutrements about him , to be regulating of the government : what have such people to do to interfere with the business of the government ? god be thanked , we have a wise prince , and god be thanked he hath wise counsellors about him , and he and they know well enough how to do their own business , and not to need the advice of a joyner , though he calls himself the protestant joyner . what had he to do to engage himself before his advice was required ? how comes he to concern himself so much , that after he had writ this libel , wherein he is pleased to take notice of tyrants , afterwards should go to make a print , i mean the raree-shew ; and when dugdale comes to enquire of him , what do you mean by such a thing , the tyrant shall go down ? says he , i mean by that the king. and what do you mean by having them go to breda ? why there he explains it , that he puts all the government , the lords and the bishops upon the kings back ; and being asked what he meant to have done with them ? why the bishops and the king , and all were to go to breda . these are the things that himself did acknowledge he was the author of , and these prints he did cause to be made , and he is the person that gives you an account , that it was but the conception and imagination of dugdale , that rowley meant the king ; but dugdale being called again , he tells you after some time , that he was under some difficulty to know the meaning of it ; and then colledge tells him it was meant the king , and so he expounded it to him . and so smith tells you of that same name of old rowley again . gentlemen , thus i tell you what hath been omitted . the evidence hath been long , and therefore we must be pardoned if we can't exactly repeat it . this is the evidence that was done at oxon. the next is mr. smith , who speaks of what was done in london , and he is an evidence both as to the word rowley , as to the coming with arms , and as to the declaring to what end he came , and what he had done : mr. haynes he tells you both before and after the same , and that i must take notice of to you , mr. smith does particularly say he used those words , which i hope every honest man , and every good man , that desires to preserve the government according to law , will hear with the greatest detestation and abhorrence : he talked of the taking away the life of the late king of blessed memory at such an impudent rate , that every true protestants blood would curdle at the hearing of it . and this he said not only to mr. masters , but he justified it to mr. smith too . in the next place you have turbervile , who gives you all the reasons , how he did not only tell of these things himself , but encouraged him to prepare himself accordingly , and he gave him a mark , a ribbon , with no popery , no slavery . these were marks whereby they were to be known , and they were to be one and all , as they call it , that when such a blow was struck , they should be ready to fall in . there is one thing more that i take notice of , that is , what was said by a gentleman , sir william jennings , which is a confirmation of all the other evidence ; that gentleman who hath appeared to you to be a man of honour even by the confession of mr. colledge himself , and by his own words ; for he said like an honest man , and like a loyal man too , that he would rather engage himself in three dangers for the service of the king at sea , than come in cold blood to give evidence against a man for his life at the bar. and yet this man who tells you this of himself , and that very person whom colledge himself calls a worthy person , hath given you this account , that when he told him his nose bled , he answered him , it was the first blood lost in the cause , but it would not be long e're there was more lost ; an excellent cause for a man to venture his blood in . when he was told of this , he began to put it off , and to use his own words , had a great mind to sham off the business , but in truth there was no answer given to it . gentlemen , the objections that have been made against the evidence that have not been taken notice of , i desire to take notice of : i think against three of them there has been only mr. oates , and mr. oates i confess has said in verbo sacerdotis strange things against dugdale , smith , and turbervile . i have only the affirmation of mr. oates , and as ill men may become good men , so may good men become ill men ; or otherwise i know not what would become of some part of mr. oates's testimony . and in the next place , if these men have not sworn true , i am sure mr. oates must stand alone in the greatest point , in which all the evidence agree , that is the popish plot. but gentlemen , i must take notice to you , that it is strange to me , that ever you upon your consciences should perjure three men , who positively upon their oaths deny any such discourses as mr. oates speaks of against them : i do put that upon your consciences , whether you upon the bare affirmation of mr. oates in this place , will convict three men , upon whose testimony the lives of so many as have suffered , have been taken away , and as we protestants do believe justly . i say , whether you will do it upon the bare affirmation of mr. oates against their oaths . in the next place , gentlemen , i must tell you , besides the positive evidence of these gentlemen , there is a circumstance of improbability in the very words which he speaks of : will any man tell me , that after such time as men have given their oaths , as smith had given his that he was concerned , and so had dugdale and turbervile too , that these men should come and voluntarily tell mr. oates they were all forsworn ; are these men such great coxcombs as he would have us ; to believe ? is it so probable a thing , that any men of common knowledge would do it ? do you think a man of that knowledge and consideration , as smith is an allowed scholar , and a man of known learning ; and mr. dugdale , who has been reckoned by all men to be a good evidence ; do you take these men to be such absolute novices , that they must seek an occasion to tell him they were bribed off , and were forsworn ? if you can think this , and if a bare affirmation against these positive oaths can prevail ; gentlemen , upon your consciences be it . in the next place , 't is a strange sort of thing to believe that mr. smith should come out of a coffee-house , where a quarrel is pretended to have been between him and colledge , but mr. smith does upon his oath say he never had any such quarrel with him , and that he should fall a damning and sinking against colledge , and against the gospel ; that there should be such impudence in the world in any man as to desire or wish such a thing ! gentlemen , these are strange sorts of apprehensions , and men must have very strange thoughts , that can strain themselves up to the belief of them . in the next place here it is said by the prisoner , good lord ! what a condition we shall be in ! here is a plot put upon the protestants , i hope in god there is no protestant plot , but i also hope the whole interest of the protestant religion is not involved in the prisoner at the bar , and all will be destroyed , if mr. colledge dies for his treasons . gentlemen , the question is not whether there be a presbyterian ▪ or protestant plot , we declare we know of none , but whether the prisoner at the bar have spoken such words , and done such things as are sworn against him . and i would fain know what all the discourses we have had about irish witnesses and papists signifie , when in all the course of our evidence , there has been but one irish , and never a papist . but here have been great discourses about macnamarra and dennis , and what it hath been for , but to make a noise , and raise a dust , i can't tell ; for in this cause there has not been one irish-man besides haynes , and never a papist throughout the whole evidence : so that it is easie , if men think it will take with the auditory , for a person to cry out , oh lord ! we are all like to be undone , here are irish witnesses brought against us ; and after all this stir , there is but one irish witness , and never a papist . and as for him , truly gentlemen i must take notice , that even colledge himself , till such time as he was taken , reckoned him an honest man. colledge . never in my life . mr. serj. jeff. it was so said . but i do say gentlemen , suppose ( which i do not admit ) that the irishman he speaks of be out of the case , not that the country is an objection against any mans testimony , god forbid it should be so affirmed ; for truth is not confined to places , nor to persons neither , but applyed to all honest men , be they irish-men or others : but i say , set mr. haynes out of the case , suppose there was no such man as haynes in this case , yet i must tell you , gentlemen , you have as great a proof as possibly can be . in the next place , i must take notice to you of some account that hath been given of him by himself : it is wonderful strange , when there was that kindness of intimation given by the court , that he should do well to prove his loyalty , as well as his religion , that he did not produce some of his later acquaintance . if this man that makes himself a protestant , would have it believed he is such , i wish he would have brought some of those men that knew him at london to give you some account of him , and not to stretch backward sixteen years to prove his birth and education ; that is not the best account sure a man can give of himself , to say after he hath been talking at this disloyal rate , that he is a good protestant , because he was thought so years ago . again in the next place , here is an account of the libels given by the old woman that is his sister : truly she would have it , and that is another libel at the bar , as though the man in the red coat , with r. c. upon it , had dropped this kind of libel in his house , and so he or somebody else put a trick upon him ; and because she would inveigle you to such an interpretation , she says that they staid behind till the man in the red coat had fetched away the shavings , and so here is a new sham plot to be put upon the prisoner , by dropping papers in his house ; a pretty kind of insinuation . but gentlemen , against the evidence of this woman , you have the very person that was there , the officer , who swears that he and his fellows came before the waterman into the house : but i suppose you observe how that notable talking maid and she does agree ; for the maid tells you there came a strange fellow seven weeks before , delivered these things into her hands , her master was abroad , and she was not to enquire whence they came , or what they were , but paid him six pence for bringing those things . now 't is very strange that the maid should pay for the bringing of those things , and yet after that should imagine that somebody else should put them there . but now gentlemen , in the next place , i must tell you another thing , which i would beg you to take notice of : here are two gentlemen , mr. bolron and mr. mowbray , and they have given you an account that they have been evidence against the papists , they did well in it ; but it hath been their misfortune hitherto they have not been believed ; but whether they have been believed or not before , is no guidance to you at this time ; but that which is to guide you is , whether or not they have given you now a testimony that you in your own consciences can believe . now can you believe what they have said , nay can you probably believe it without any circumstance to confirm it , against those express objections that arise from themselves , and against the oath of the person , when the one tells you so exactly of the twenty fifth , twenty sixth , twenty seventh , and twenty eighth of july , and the other tells you that smith took post , and yet overtook them not till the sunday after , which was the third of august ; and when the almanack is produced , it was so far from making out what they spake of to be the same time , that whereas one said he came to london the twenty eighth , the others almanack says it was the th . then pray how do these persons agree , when the one says that mr. smith talked with him upon the road the th . and the other says that they came to london the th . these are circumstances , gentlemen , that you must weigh , and you may bring the north and the south together as soon as their two testimonies , they are so far asunder . besides , gentlemen , i hope you take notice of a person that was sworn , a person of some quality , a scholar in the university here , that says balron ( though he denied it ) did shew one of these pictures , and did discover they were mr. colledges ; and balron himself , his own witness , tells you that he did acknowledge one of those pictures was his . it appears then how busie he was , and concerned himself in what belonged not to his profession . so that upon the whole matter , after this long evidence that hath been given , i must wholly appeal to your lordship and the jury ; as to the law , to your lordship and the court ; and as to the fact , to the jury : for i do not desire any sort of evidence should be strained against a prisoner at the bar , who is there to be tried for his life . god forbid if he be innocent , but he should be acquitted ; but on the other side , consider the murder of that great king of ever blessed memory is before you , and remember that base reflection which the witnesses tell you of upon that horrid action ; and as a great evidence , remember that seeming vindication of it at the bar , which certainly no english-man , no protestant according to the church of england , can hear without having his blood stirred in him . and these things are not only testified by dugdale and smith , but by gentlemen of known reputation and quality ; and he hath a little discover'd himself by that defence he hath made against their testimony . but know , gentlemen , that the king is concerned , your religion is concerned , that plot that is so much agreed to by all protestants is concerned ; for if dugdale , smith and turbervile be not to be believed , you trip up the heels of all the evidence and discovery of that plot. then i will conclude to you , gentlemen , and appeal to your consciences , for according to the oath that has been given to you , you are bound in your consciences to go according to your evidence , and are neither to be inveigled by us beyond our proof , nor to be guided by your commiseration to the prisoner at the bar against the proof ; for as god will call you to an account if you do an injury to him , so will the same god call you to account if you do it to your king , to your religion , and to your own souls . lo. ch . just . gentlemen , i shall detain you but a little , and shall be as short as i can , for your patience has been much exercised already : it is a burden , and a necessary one that lies upon us all , for there is nothing more necessary than that such tryals as these should be intire and publick , intire for the dispatch of them , and publick for the satisfaction of the world , that it may appear no man receives his condemnation without evidence , and that no man is acquitted against evidence . gentlemen , there are these two considerations in all cases of this nature ; the one is , the force of the evidence ; the other is , the truth of the evidence . as to the force of the evidence , that is a point in law that belongs to the court , and wherein the court is to direct you ; as to the truth of the evidence , that is a question in fact arising from the witnesses , & must be left upon them , whereof you are the proper judges . as to the force of the evidence in this case , it must be consider'd what the charge is ; it is the compassing the death of the king , and conspiring to seize the person of the king , which is the same thing in effect ; for even by the common law , or upon the interpretation of the statute of the . of edw. . that mentions compassing the death of the king to be treason , it has always been resolved , that whosoever shall imagine to depose the king , or imprison the king , are guilty of imagining the death of the king ; for they are things that depend one upon another : and never was any king deposed or imprisoned , but with an intention to be put to death , they are in consequences the same thing . now gentlemen , in cases of treason the law is so tender of the life of the king , that the very imagination of the heart is treason , if there be any thought concerning any such thing ; but then it must be manifested by some overt-act , upon the statute of the . of edw. . but upon the statute of the . of this king , made for the preservation of the kings person , if it be manifested by malicious and advised speaking , 't is sufficient . this is as to the charge , and as to the law concerning that charge , i must tell you there must be two witnesses in the case . now then for the force of the evidence , the question will arise there , whether this evidence , admitting it to be true , is sufficient to maintain the indictment ; so that if there be two witnesses , you must find him guilty . now as to this , gentlemen , the prisoner has before-hand called upon the court , and had their resolution ; and i hope you will remember what hath been said , and i shall have occasion to trouble you the less . there have been six witnesses produced for the king ; there are two of them , sir william jennings and mr. masters , that are some way applicable to the case , though they do not go to the treason , they are only to infer the probability of the treason . this of sir william jennings was upon the occasion of the bleeding of the prisoners nose , after his quarrel with fitz-gerald , when he said , he had lost the first bloud , and it would not be long e're there would be more lost ; which shews there were some extraordinary thoughts in his heart concerning some divisions , quarrels , and fighting that he expected should be . that which mr. masters has said , ( besides what he offered concerning his principles in justifying the long parliament ) was this , that when he called him colonel , marry mock not , said he , i may be a colonel in time ; that shews some extraordinary thoughts were in his heart . coll. will not that bear a more favourable interpretation , my lord ? must that necessarily follow upon my saying , i might be a colonel in time , and that more bloud would be lost ? if i had expressed it so . l. c. j. i say you had some extraordinary thoughts in your heart . coll. i am , sure , the fittest to explain my own thoughts . l. c. j. you would have done well to have explained it which way you expected to be a colonel . coll. it was not an expectation , for a may be , may not be ; my word was , mocking is catching : i thought he had called me cozen. l. c. j. well gentlemen , these are witnesses i say that go not to the treason , but only relate and reflect somewhat to shew there were thoughts in his heart , but no body could tell what they were , or know what he meant by them . coll. then always they are to be taken in the best sence . l. c. j. for the other witnesses , stephen dugdale , john smith , bryan haynes , and edward turbervile , they are all of them , taking what they say to be true , very full witnesses . the prisoner hath objected as to two of them , because they speak to nothing that was done in oxfordshire , but turbervile and dugdale they speak to what was said in oxfordshire . now for that i must tell you , if you believe any one of these witnesses , as to what was said in oxford , and any of them as to what was said in london , relating to the same fact of treason , they will be two good witnesses to maintain the indictment , tho' the one is in the one county , and the other in another ; for if a treason be committed in two counties , it is in the kings election where he will exhibit the indictment , and the evidence from both counties is good evidence ; that i take for law , and these four witnesses , with that consideration that they are true , as i think are full witnesses to maintain this indictment . why then the next head is concerning the truth of this evidence , of which you are to be judges , and you are the proper judges whether the witnesses speak true or no ; therefore you must have your own consciences to direct you in that case , and what i shall say about them , shall be only for your assistance . gentlemen , i shall not take upon me to repeat the evidence to you , it has been long ; and for me to speak out of memory , i had rather you should recur to your own memories , and your own notes : only i shall say something in general to contract your consideration of it . and as i told you at first , you must mind nothing of what the kings counsel said , for nothing must have impression upon you , but what they proved ; so you are not to consider any thing of the facts the prisoner spake of , that are not proved neither ; for common justice is concerned in it , and no justice can be done at that rate , if the prisoners own affirmations or purgation should be taken . no man ever can be accused but he will be ready to say he is innocent , and say as flourishing and popular things as ever he can for himself . and therefore these things must not weigh with you further , than as what is said , argues upon the proofs you have had . and you are to consider upon the proofs what the prisoner has produced , not what he says on the other side , for the proofs you have heard a great many witnesses in general produced by him , that say he was bred a protestant , and has been an honest man , that they knew no ill by him , that will be of little weight in a case of this consideration ; for unless he were a man that had committed treason to the knowledge of all the world , there is no man but can produce witnesses that know no ill of him , nor any treason , nor harm in him , therefore the question wiill lye upon the credit of the witnesses produced for the king barely , and that will be the consideration you are only to have , and you are to weigh them in the ballance against the witnesses produced against them . now gentlemen , for these witnesses i shall not repeat them to you , but only this i shall observe in general , that dugdale and turbervile that are the two most mateterial witnesses relating to what was spoke in oxfordshire , have the least said against them . i do not remember , i profess to you i do not ( but your own notes must guide you ) that there was any very material thing said against them except what is said against them by dr. oates , and dr. oates does say against smith , that he came out of the coffee-house , and swore dam him he would have colledges bloud , and when he reproved him , and said it was not fit for a minister of the gospel to use such expressions , he said god damn the gospel , if that be true 't is a great reflection upon the credit of smith . he says as to dugdale , that when he was expostulating with him about his evidence , he excused himself , that he was in want of mony , and was pressed to it , and being asked whether he was pressed to swear against his conscience , he said yes ; and much of the same kind he says as to turbervile , that he said he was disserted and would not starve . now all these three witnesses being called upon their oaths deny that which dr. oates testifies . now if it were in an indifferent and probable matter to have three men condemned , and set aside by the testimony of one is not equal , unless the man were of mighty extraordinary credit , and his testimony of more than ordinary weight . but then i must tell you this matter is very improbable , that after witnesses had sworn a thing they should voluntarily acknowledge themselves to be forsworn , and that without any provocation , they should at several times come to this one man and declare themselves rogues and villaines , but if it were probable , here are three mens oaths against one mans affirmation , this i say as to what concerns dugdale and turbervile , i do not see any thing material against them , besides now if you believe them , they are two witnesses to the full matter of the indictment , and two witnesses to what was done in oxfordshire , and that satisfies all the considerations of law. as to the rest of the witnesses , bryan haynes and john smith , you have had many witnesses produced against them , i shall not undertake to repeat the evidence , 't is your place and duty to weigh their testimony , and i shall leave it to your consideration . mr. just . jones . i shall add nothing to what my lord hath said , nor indeed can . colledge . my lord , i wish you would look upon your notes , you would then find there was much more evidence , that you have not repeated against turbervile and dugdale , besides what your lordship urged . l. c. j. if there be , i refer it to the memory of the jury , i can remember no more . colledge . i desire nothing but justice , and true justice . l. c. j. i am sure i design nothing else , you are a stranger to me , i believe i have seen your face , but i never knew you by name till now . look you , if the jury be like to stay , they may take something to refresh themselves at the bar before they go . colledge . my lord , i did see when the bill was brought against my lord howard , mr. attorney general and mr. sollicitor were an hour and half with the grand jury . mr. ser. jeff. you must say nothing now my lord has given the charge . col. let me have justice done my lord , that 's all i crave , that none may be with the jury . l. c. j. look you mr. colledge , they might be with the grand jury , but as to the petty jury there shall be a bayliff sworn , and neither mr. attorney , nor mr. sollicitor , nor any body else shall come to them till they be agreed of their verdict . mr. just . jones . if that be the thing you ask , you shall have it according to the law. colledge . and any friend of mine may be by . l. c. j. there shall be an officer sworn to keep them . then the court called for two bottles of sack , which the jury divided among themselves at the bar , for their refreshment , in the presence of the prisoner . after which a bayliff was sworn , and the jury withdrawing to consider of their verdict , the court adjourned for half an hour , and when they returned , proclamation being made for attendance , the court sent to see whether the jury were agreed , who immediately came in to court. cl. of cr. gentlemen , are you agreed of your verdict ? omn. yes . cl. of cr. who shall say for you ? omn. foreman . cl. of cr. stephen colledge , hold up thy hand , look upon him you of the jury : how say you , is he guilty of the high treason , whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. look to him gaoler , he is found guilty of high treason ; what goods , &c. at which there was a great shout given , at which the court being offended , one person who was observed by the cryer to be particularly concerned in the shout , was committed to gaol for that night , but the next morning having received a publick reproof , was discharged without fees. then it being about a clock in the morning , the court adjourned to . at which hour the court being sat , and first mr. aaron smith having entred into recognizance of l. to appear the first day of the next term , at the court of kings-bench . lo. c. j. where is the prisoner stephen colledge ? cl. of cr. set up stephen colledge . then the prisoner was brought to the bar. cl. of cr. hearken to the court and hold up thy hand ; thou hast been indicted and arraigned of high treason , and for thy tryal hast put thy self upon thy country , and they have found thee guilty , what canst thou say for thy self , why the court should not give judgment on thee to dye according to the law. coll. my lord , i have nothing more to offer , but only that i am innocent of what is laid to my charge ; i think it was severe againste me , now contrary to what was sworn at london : they swear now , i was to seize the king at oxford . in london they swore i would pluck the king out of whitehall , but 't is altered since , and now 't is to seize the king at oxford , but be it either one or t'other ( for the one is as true as the other ) i am wholly innocent of either , i never had such a thought in my life , god forgive them that have sworn against me , i have no more to say , my lord. l. c. j. look you , mr. colledge , it is too late to profess your innocence , you have been tryed and found guilty ; but because you say it now , 't is necessary for me to say something in vindication of the verdict , which i think the court were all very well satisfied with : there were sufficient proofs to warrant it , and the jury did according to justice and right . i thought it was a case , that as you made your own defence , small proof would serve the turn to make any one believe you guilty . for as you would defend your self by pretending to be a protestant . it is wonder , i must confess , when you called so many witnesses to your religion and reputation , that none of them gave an account that they saw you receive the sacrament within these many years , or any of them particularly had seen you at church in many years , or what kind of protestant you were . if we look to your words and actions , it is true , they did prove this , that you were mighty violent and zealous in crying out against popery , and the papists ; but if we look to your actions , they savoured rather to promote the papists ends . for i must tell you , the papists are best extirpated and suppressed by a steady prosecution of the laws against them , not by violent crying out , and putting the people into fervent heats and confusions , for that is the thing the papists aim at ; they have no hopes any other way to creep into the kingdom but by confusion , and after the church is destroyed , that is , under god , the best bulwark against them . but you that cryed so loud against the papists , it was proved here who you called papists . you had the boldness to say that the king was a papist , the bishops were papists , and the church of england were papists . if these be the papists you cry out against , what a kind of protestant you are , i know not , i am sure you can be no good one . but truly i thought you would have made better proof of that thing , when you called so manny witnesses to that purpose : and then if we look to your politicks , what opinion you had of the king , it was proved by your discourse , and by witnesses , that you could have no exception to their testimony , that you did justify the late horrid rebellion , and the consequences of that was the murder of the best king in the world , that you should go to justifie the proceedings of that parliament , and affirm that they did nothing but what they had just cause to do . i say he that will justifie such a thing , if there were the same circumstances , would do the same thing again . then if we look upon another part of your defence , as to your arms , it was objected you went armed to oxon. and that was made the evidence of the overt act , when you said by words your intentions what you would do , that you would make one to seize the king , that you did go armed , you did confess . i expected you should have said , you only wore those things for your own defence upon the road , as a gentleman travelling , or went with your friends to accompany them out of town , and defend them from robbery ; but you said you went to guard the parliament . i did not understand what you meant by it . i do not believe the parliament sent for any guard , or intended to have any guard. i do not believe that any of them in their hearts thought they needed a guard ; for i believe there was not a man that had any thing that looked like that , for any thing of that nature . for we saw , that when the king by the necessity of his affairs , when the two houses differed so much , was pleased to dismiss them ; they all departed quietly , not a man was seen to be disturbed ; there was no appearance of any such thing , and how it should come ●nto your head , that were but a private man , to go to guard the parliament , i much wonder ▪ suppose all men of your condition should have gone to have guarded the parliament , what an assembly had there been ? what a bustle might they have made , and what confusion might there have been on a sudden ? and though you say you are no man of quality , nor likely to be able to do any thing upon the kings guards ; or the kings person ▪ yet if all of your quality had gone upon the same design that you did , what ill consequences might have been of it ? we see what has been done by massianello a mean man in another countrey , what by wat tyler and jack straw in this kingdom ? i confess i know not what you meant by it , but very ill things might have hapned upon it . so that these things when i look upon them ▪ and consider the complexion of your defence , it makes an easie proof have credit . but i think there was a full proof in your case ; yet i say , if there had been a great deal less proof , the jury might with justice have found you guilty . and because you now declare your self innocent of all you are charged with , i think my self bound to declare here in vindication of the countrey , and in vindication of the justice of the court , that it was a verdict well given , and to the satisfaction of the court , and i did not find my brothers did dislike it . this i say to you out of charity , that you may incline your mind to a submission to the justice that has overtaken you , and that you may enter into charity with all men , and prepare your self for another life . there is nothing now remaining , but to pronounce the sentence which the law provides for such an offence ; which is this , and the court does award , that you stephen colledge shall be carried from hence to the place from whence you came , and from thence you shall be drawn on an hurdle to the place of execution , where you shall be hanged up by the neck , and be cut down alive , your privy-members shall be cut off , and your bowels taken out and burnt before your face , your head shall be cut off from your body , your body be divided into four quarters , which are to be at the kings dispose , and the lord have mercy upon your soul. colledge . amen . my lord , i would know what time your lordship is pleased to appoint for my preparation ? lo. ch . just . that will depend upon the king's pleasure : we do not use in these cases of high-treason to precipitate the execution , but we will leave such order with the sheriff to receive the king's pleasure , and obey it . he will not do it so sudden but that you shall have notice to prepare your self ; but it depends upon the king's pleasure ; for your body is to be at his dispose . then the court adjourned . and on wednesday the . of august , . being the day appointed by his majesty for his execution , he was according to sentence , executed over against the gate of the castle at oxford . finis . an account of what past on monday the th of october, , in the house of commons, and since at the king's-bench-bar at westminster, in relation to the earl of castlemaine castlemaine, roger palmer, earl of, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an account of what past on monday the th of october, , in the house of commons, and since at the king's-bench-bar at westminster, in relation to the earl of castlemaine castlemaine, roger palmer, earl of, - . england and wales. court of king's bench. [ ], p. printed for matthew granger, london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng castlemaine, roger palmer, -- earl of, - -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an account of what past on monday the th . of october , . in the house of commons , and since at the king's-bench-bar at westminster , in relation to the earl of castlemaine . london , printed for matthew granger , . an account of what past on monday the th . of october , . in relation to the earl of castlemaine , &c. the attorney general being ( on saturday the th of october . ) inform'd , that the earl of castlemaine , sr. edward hales and other prisoners of the tower , were brought by their habeas corpus to the hall to be bail'd , desir'd to know the pleasure of the house in that affair ; who order'd that they should presently be all sent for to their bar ; which was done accordingly ; only the said earl was not there ; for he remain'd still in the tower , having ( it seems ) made use of no such writ ; however the house directed the governour to bring him up ( as he did ) the monday following ; and then the speaker said to this effect . mr. speaker to my lord. my lord , the house having understood , that you went embassador to rome ; and also took your place at the board as a privy councellor without taking the oaths ( which are great crimes , and against law. ) they have sent for you to know what you have to say for your self . his lordship's answer . it cannot ( mr. speaker ) but put me into more then an ordinary confusion , when i find my self in this place as a criminal ; especially , seeing ( through the whole course of my life ) the glory and welfare of england has been my chief aim and endeavour . you are pleas'd sir to lay so great a charge upon me , that ( without shuffling or impertinence ) i might ask time to consider it ; yet since i well know how much you value your time , and since time also may make what i say suspected more of artifice then candor , i shall now ( without further delay ) let you and this great assembly see ( where so many of birth and quality are met ) how far i am from deserving either censure or reproach . but ( mr. speaker ) before i go further , i must humbly beg these few favours of you . first , that you would pardon all tautologies or want of method , as beginning perchance in the middle , and ending again where i should have begun . secondly , that you would not take any advantage at my answers , for i shall be ingenuous to the utmost , and hesitate at nothing you shall ask . and lastly , if ( through inadvertency or hast ) i should say what might shock you , that you would not stand upon the rigor of the words , but upon the sincerity and clearness of my explanation . be pleas'd then to know , sir , i was so far from seeking this employment , that i did not so much as dream it was design'd me ; and when i knew it , i us'd my utmost endeavour to avoid it . my ignorance of the kings intentions appears by this , that ( in the year i went to rome ) returning out of the country ( according to my usual custom ) after michaelmas , i found a protestant , a person of note at my house , who told me , that before i spoke with any man , he was to bring me to my lord sunderland , and from thence i was to go to his majesty ; nor would he ( scarce ) afford me time to put my self in a tollerable order to attend them . my lord sunderland soon hinted to me , what the kings intentions were ; and when i recurr'd to his friendship , i had this answer , or words to this purpose ; that if subjects should refuse their kings service in every thing that was troublesom or contre-coeur , all kings would be in an ill condition ; that my request was beyond his power ; and that he believed i should find his majesty very positive ; and so i did mr. speaker , i 'l assure you . nay to satisfie you yet more fully of my backwardness to this journey ; can you think , sir , that i , that had been at rome more then once ; that had seen the grandeur of so many roman embassies ; and knew they exceeded in splendor and expence three times those to any crown'd head whatsoever , should not be extraordinarily concern'd at an employment , which had for its subsistance ( as the lords of the treasury well known ) no other establishment then that to spain or france , which ( being l. a week ) amounts only to pounds per. annum ? having thus sir , shew'd you how little fond i was of the thing , let me now ( with submission ) ask you , what could i otherwise do in my circumstances ? for first i call all that 's good to witness , i never heard of law against it , nor know of any to this very day ; and yet ( on the other side ) i was not only commanded by the king , but knew his royal and legal power of commanding the service of his subjects , and most particularly in embassies , as appears by many old examples ; nay , by a fatal one in this very century ; i mean the case of overbury , to which no body here ( i 'm sure ) is a stranger . in the next place , sir , what did i go to rome for ? why only with a letter ; with a complement from a profest and open catholic king to his holyness , as all princes of that communion do in the beginning of their respective reigns . besides mr. speaker , as i know no law , that forbad my obedience , so i must needs say ( and this without cramping or putting any bounds to the legislative power ) that no such law can be made ; for sir , the pope is a very considerable temporal prince , whose territories border on two great seas , the miditerranean and adriatic ; if then our merchants should be by storm or other necessities , driven into his ports ; if english-men should be surpriz'd by any roman party as they travel in a neighbouring country , shall our government ( not to mention a hundred other greater accidents ) want power to send a messenger to ransom and compound for them ? what law therefore was there ever yet fram'd , or can be enacted ( let the commerce or intercourse between nations be never so much broken and prohibited ) but that a commander in chief , a general , and much more a king , may beat a parley , dispatch a trumpet , nay , send and receive letters as often as occasion does require ? now ( mr. speaker ) for religion , i neither had any commission concerning it , nor transacted with his holyness about it ; and as no body ever did , or could lay any thing of that nature to my charge , so for some confirmation of it , i will appeal even to the aqua fresca houses of rome , and to all the protestant gentlemen of our nation there during my embassie ; for though what i tell you , sir , be a wonder , yet the honourable persons , who have resided in those parts , know it to be true , that for a dish of chocolate or a dish of limonade , one may know the measures and particulars of an embassy in that city , as well as we do what passes within these walls at our coffee-houses . i am sure my under servants have often smil'd at the grimaces and mysteries which my secretaires us'd in the beginning to make before my audiences ; for they have told them ( within few hours after my return ) almost word by word what had pass'd . give me also leave , sir , to add one truth more , which will assure you that i had no dangerous intreague in hand ; and this is , that notwithstanding his holyness never had the least imagination or thought , but that i was as real and sincere a catholic as any man living ; and the same thing also i can say of all the cardinals ; and in fine , of the whole court in general ; yet none of them ( and every english-man in town knew it ) but look't upon me as one , that if any immunity of the crown were in question , or any temporal concern of the kingdom touch't , would stand as much in the gap , and be in as diametrical an opposition , as any person of the reform'd religion whatsoever . you see then sir , both how , and why i went ; nor have i done any thing certainly to merit any man's unkindness or ill-will ; nay , to lay yet further before you the hardship i am under , i shall state you a case , not fetch 't out of old forgotten records , or transacted in an age disparate from ours , but of a man attainted in this very house , in the memory of several now sitting , and even whil'st i my self had the honour to be a member of it . the case mr. speaker is axtels the regicide ; one whose crime ( i dare say ) my greatest enemies think i abhor in the highest manner ; nor do i mention the thing in favour of the criminal , but in honour of his grave and worthy judges . axtell you know ( mr. speaker ) was indicted for the murther of charles the first ; and to shew that he maliciously contriv'd and abetted it , the kings counsel urg'd his commanding in the hall at the tryal ; his placing the sentinels all about ; and in short , his performing there the whole office of captain of the guard. the prisoner answer'd ; but pray , mr. speaker , let me beg pardon , if the interval of almost thirty years has made me forget his words , i am sure the sense of them i have not ; i say , sir , the prisoner answer'd ; my lords i am under great oppression , i am hardly dealt with . has charles the second been so gracious as to pass over the ordinary transgressions of his stray'd subjects , and to look upon the obedience of souldiers to their then superiors , as if the authority had been more legal ? and shall i now dye ( who was under military discipline ) for that , which i must have presently died for , had i not done it ; to wit , had i not drawn up my regiment , kept the post order'd me , and perform'd the other duties , the concourse being great and troublesom ? upon this the judge reply'd ; i confess ( considering the kings merciful resolutions ) that your argument is strong ; it has great weight in it ; but mr. axtell , did you do no more ? did you only perform the duty of a commanded souldier ? who was it ( i pray ) that animated the rabble ? who beat the souldiers for not crying justice ? who encourag'd spitting in the kings face ? and who barbarously revil'd and threatned a noble lady , that in the transports of her zeal ( when she saw her sovereign abus'd , when she heard such blasphemy against him , and all this father'd upon the nation ) made a noise or stir in the court ? these things therefore sir , being prov'd against him ; he was convicted , condemn'd , and so paid a debt to justice , and to the sacred ashes of that great and just man. now mr. speaker to application ; and first ( after a little glance on the tenderness of these judges , when any necessity could be pretended ) let me with your pardon ask you , shall i suffer as a transgressor of the law , were there any , when i must have suffer'd by the law , had i refus'd his majesties orders and commands ? but sir , if you demand , did i do no more then carry a letter , or go with a ceremonious how d' ye from the king ? i must answer yes , and a great deal more too . for my house was an asylum , a place of refuge to all distress't or oppress 't fellow subjects . if seamen mutiny'd or had any contest with their captains , here a reconciliation was made , and here they return'd to their obedience , if the captains themselves ( fraughted for the camera ) were delay'd their money , or misus'd by under officers , they quickly found redress , and often ( by my interest ) receiv'd more then they themselves expected ; and if the question happened about quantity , or how goods were condition'd at delivery , the verdict i am sure went still on their side . nor was my care confin'd to rome only , but reach't to all the factories of italy : for the consuls themselves , nay every private person found both an easie access to me , and an indefatigable zeal in their concerns ; so that the merchants in general that had to do in those parts , were far from being behind hand in their thankful acknowledgments . nay one of the greatest companies of our nation , i mean that for turkey , not only return'd me their thanks very heartily by letter , but did it again by word of mouth after my arrival home . i am sure ( mr. speaker ) if the employment i submitted to were a fault , i have already not a little suffer'd for it ; for i never put bounds ( as our travellers , as well as my own officers fully know ) to any expence that could be imagin'd for the dignity of the nation ; and give me leave to tell you also sir , that though the name of rome may be harsh and ungreatful to your ears , yet what i did , was with a good intention , and like a true and faithful english-man . for had i been sent with a character to constantinople , where they are mahometans ; or to china , where gentiles ; the eclat or figure which i should have endeavour'd to make , would never be consider'd by you as an honour to their religion , but our country ; therefore since it is a disparagement and great reflection to a kingdom , to come below or short of others in any thing that is public and of note , i cannot but have ( at least ) faint hopes , that you will have some consideration , some opinion of an embassador ( though at rome ) that kept up ( to his power ) the glory and grandeur of england . but mr. speaker , not to trouble you longer on the present head , i 'le end when i have told you this ; that if i have done amiss in obeying the king's commands , no consul that has pursu'd pirate or bandite to rome ; no private factor that has follow'd a debter thither ; nor in short any man that has written so much as one letter to that city , though it were to demand his own , but is a far greater criminal then my self , and lyes at the mercy of every enemy to be indicted as a contemner and breaker of the laws . your second charge mr. speaker , is my being a privy counsellour , without taking the appointed oaths ; to which i can truly say , they were never offer'd me ; though i must also confess ( for i shall be sincere with you in every thing ) that i believe , nay that i am certain , i should not have taken them , had they been offer'd ; so that i do acknowledge the omission a fault against law — here the speaker thinking that his lordship had made an end , desir'd him to withdraw ; but being inform'd that he had not done ; he excus'd the interruption , and then his lordship went on . i say ( mr. speaker ) i acknowledge this a fault against law , were there not several things of weight , that will ( i hope ) justify me to you ; and here , sir , i must entreat you , not to conceive that i come now to defend or make good the dispensing power , but only to shew you how necessarily i was driven and induc't to the aforesaid omission ; for ( mr. speaker ) in controversies and disputes , what can one doe , but recur either to his own observation , or to the opinion of learn'd men , and professors in the science ? in the first place then , when i began to examine my self as to the right the king claim'd and asserted ; i saw non obstantes deem'd legal , which signified to me dispensing ; i found the power of continuing sheriffs own'd for many ages to be undoubted law , and yet i knew there was a positive statute against it ; nay i remember'd an act , which i my self had in this house given my vote and consent to , viz. that about the regulation of carriages and waggons ; or if this be not the exact title , i must beseech you to pardon my treacherous memory , and 't is i 'le assure you the only traytor i ever yet succoured or supported ; i say sir , i remember'd this very act ( almost as soon as made ) suspended by charles the d's . proclamation without the least question or murmur ; and i took so much notice of it , as to make even then this reflection ( and i do assure you upon my honour 't is true ) that though our monarchs could not impose and abrogate laws o themselves , yet they had the power ( i perceiv'd ) to respite them . in the second place ( mr. speaker ) if i went abroad ; i mean if i consulted the thoughts and sentiments of others , i found not only great men of the long robe , but the judges also themselves declaring in favour of this prerogative ; and the interpretation or determination of these sages was always told me to be law , till a new law or a new explanation should be enacted . what would you then ( mr. speaker ) have me to do , who was call'd to the board by the king ; who could not in conscience take the oaths ; and yet had no reason to think i committed ( in not taking them ) a crime ; seeing the law was thus openly expounded and publisht ? and now sir , since i have been forc't to mention my religion , which i know is a legal fault , and of a high nature ; i must not forget also to celebrate the goodness of this house , which has pardon'd the fault , even in the solemnest way , and by the solemnest act that ever past since magna charta ; to wit , the great act of oblivion . give me leave sir , to say this too , for i can justly do it ; that being so faithful and so true an englishman , i neither should nor could ( i am sure ) have ever , during my life , offended my country , but in my religion . pardon also i humbly beseech you this digression , and together with it the incoherences and disjunctions all along ; nor shall i any ways doubt of it , since you so well know how uneasy and troublesome a long discourse ( which my circumstances have now required ) must needs be to one , that wants both eloquence and practice . but ( mr. speaker ) to return where i left , and so conclude ; how sir , i pray you ( and i demand it again of you with great respect ) could i think the omission ( as i said ) of the oaths a breach of the laws , when our guides , who had the laws in their keeping , told us explicitely , and without reserve the said oaths were not necessary ? shall i then suffer that had neither buoy nor mark to direct me ? certainly no ; for if there were a fault , 't is not i must suffer , but the judges , and those knowing and deputed pilots , that hung out ( it seems ) the wrong flag and signal . i have sir , but one word more to trouble you with , and this i speak in behalf of all here ; nay in behalf of all the people of england ; that if i now undergo your severity , and that single persons ( notwithstanding the determinations and judgments of our courts of justice ) must be still responsible ; no man can be safe , no man can be rest ; for no body that acts can know ( as accidents will often happen ) whether he be innocent or guilty . mr. speaker , i am in great disorder for imposing thus on your patience ; and especially seeing i must yet presume to do it , one thing more occurring to me ( as i hope ) for your further service , or at least satisfaction ; and 't is to let you know how i came to be a prisoner , and why i continued so thus long . be pleas'd then sir , that i tell you , that as soon as the king first left white-hall , i thought it decency to go out of town ; and therefore three days after i took coach for montgomery-shire , where of late i us'd to reside in the summer time . on the borders of that country , at a small corporation called oswestree , i was first stopt by the rabble , and afterwards detain'd ( with a strong guard ) at my inn by the major ; though no body ( as he confest ) made any oath against me ; and tho he had no orders ( as he said ) from london for it ; nay ( after a months restraint ) he deny'd me my liberty upon bail notwithstanding two neighbouring lawyers ( whom i sent for ) assur'd him he could not justify the refusal by law. i do not sir , complain of any incivility , either from him or the people ; for i was us'd with respect enough ; but i judge it extreamly fit to let you see how the liberty of a subject was willfully invaded by a magistrate , and how little conscious i was of any guilt , since instead of flying , i went to a place where i was known by every body . in fine mr. speaker , after a confinement of seven weeks , i was sent for up , and brought hither by a party of horse ; nor was i ever question'd or examin'd by any body , but kept ( upon the suspension of the habeas corpus act ) at a messengers house for three months ; and when the said act was suspended the last time , i was committed ( by my lord shrewsberry's warrant ) to the tower , for suspicion of treasonable practices . his lordship having ended , retir'd with the serjant at arms to his room , where after a little stay , he was sent for in again ; and then the speaker told him ; that since he said his journey to rome was with a letter of civility to a temporal prince , and not about religion , the house ( to be more fully satisfied of it ) desir'd to see his instructions . to which his lordship thus answer'd . i hope ( mr. speaker ) though i shall readily acknowledge my own natural weakness , you will not yet think me so imprudent , as that ( in a time of such troubles and distraction ) i would keep papers by me , and especially about rome , to render my self lyable to every malicious man's extravagancy and comment . this therefore caus'd me sir ( the night before i went towards wales ) to burn all papers that came to hand ; and truly some amongst the rest , that i have since wanted ; nay this i can also justly aver , that i remember not now one word of those instructions , having ( i 'm confident ) never read them twice ; only this i remember , they were things of course ; words of form ; and needed no further consideration . yet sir , that you may plainly see my sincerity , and how far i am from any design of illuding and deceiving you , i shall shew you how you mayretrieve them , when i tell you , that mr. monstevens brought them me , and that they were drawn ( as i take it ) by mr. bridgman ; for i 'm certain they came from my lord sunderland's office. but my lord ( reply'd the speaker ) had you no private instructions ? none ; answered his lordship . what none at all , said mr. speaker again . none i 'le assure you sir , reply'd his lordship ; unless the kings orders , to demand a cardinals cap for prince reinaldo of este , were private instructions ; nor do i certainly know , whether those commands were in my foremention'd instructions , or whether i had them by word of mouth . my lord , said the speaker , i have another question to ask you ; to wit , who of the long robe told you of the kings power of dispensing , and that there was no necessity of taking the oaths ? i am sir ( answer'd his lordship ) infinitely troubled , if i have through want of care , or by any improper expression given you occasion to misapprehend me ; for i never askt any particular man of that profession about this affair ; but my meaning was ( and i hope my words are not contrary to my meaning ) that the said power was manifestly and openly declar'd to be law by judges and lawyers ; so that i deem'd it no solecism in discourse to mention it as if they themselves had told it me . then his lordship retir'd again , and after a long debate , the house past this order . that the earl of castlemaine stand committed to the tower by a warrant from this house for high treason , for endeavouring to reconcile this kingdom to the see of rome , and for other high crimes and misdemeanors . as soon as his lordship was inform'd of this vote , he entreated a member to let the house know , that he had a word or two more to trouble them with ; so that being brought in , the speaker told him , that the house having notice ( he had something further to acquaint them with ) was very willing to hear him . mr. speaker ( reply'd his lordship ) i have nothing more to say about the former matters ; but understanding your pleasure , i thought it my duty to let you know , how the custom of the tower as to prisoners is chang'd ; for in course heretofore ( unless there were a particular order of state to the contrary ) they had the liberty of the tower ; that is to say , they could walk about at seasonable hours with a warder ; but now as soon as one is committed ( though it be upon bare suspicion , as i was ) he is confin'd to his lodging , and hindred from the consolation of seeing his friends , till ( after much solicitation and trouble ) leave be granted by the secretaries . therefore sir , being morally certain that i shall be confin'd again assoon as i return , i humbly desire the favour of this freedom ; it being also what i hitherto enjoy'd after i had been restrain'd for some days in the aforementioned manner . this said , his lordship went out , and then was carried to the tower , where he was made a close prisoner , as he foretold , though what he moved , occasion'd the following vote . that a committee be appointed to bring in a bill for the better regulating the imprisonment of the subjects of this kingdom , and to settle the fees of goalers ; and it was likewise referr'd to them , to examine into the abuses of goalers towards their prisoners which have been heretofore committed . on wednesday the th of the following february , his lordship mov'd for his habeas corpus , and was brought by the lord lucas , ( the present governour of the tower ) to westminster , on the th ; so that appearing at the king's-bench , his commitments were read , and mr. attorney having nothing to object against his being bail'd , the court awarded it upon the security of thirty thousand pounds ; that is to say , a recognisance of ten thousand from himself , and five thousand a piece from his four sureties ; which were , john earl of bath , thomas earl of aylisbury , thomas earl of sussex , and charles lord landsdown . finis . the tryal of sir henry vane, kt. at the kings bench, westminster, june the d. and th, together with what he intended to have spoken the day of his sentence (june ) for arrest of judgment (had he not been interrupted and over-ruled by the court) and his bill of exceptions : with other occasional speeches, &c. : also his speech and prayer, &c. on the scaffold. vane, henry, sir, ?- , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of sir henry vane, kt. at the kings bench, westminster, june the d. and th, together with what he intended to have spoken the day of his sentence (june ) for arrest of judgment (had he not been interrupted and over-ruled by the court) and his bill of exceptions : with other occasional speeches, &c. : also his speech and prayer, &c. on the scaffold. vane, henry, sir, ?- , defendant. england and wales. court of king's bench. [ ], - , [ ] p. s.n.], [london : . place of publication from wing. errata note on p. [ ] at end. reproduction of original in library of congress. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng vane, henry, -- sir, ?- -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of sir henry vane , kt. at the kings bench , westminster , june the d . and th . . together with what he intended to have spoken the day of his sentence , ( june . ) for arrest of judgment , ( had he not been interrupted and over-ruled by the court ) and his bill of exceptions . with other occasional speeches , &c. also his speech and prayer , &c. on the scaffold . printed in the year , . the tryal of sir henry vane knight , at the kings bench , westminster , june the d . and th . . reader , thou shalt not be detained with any flourishing preface . 't is true ; whether we consider the person or cause , so much might pertinently be said , as ( were the pen of some ready writer imployed therein ) a large preamble might seem to need but a very short apol●gy , if any at all . yet , by that time we have well weighed what this sufferer hath said for himself , and left behind him in writing , it will appear , that there needed not any tongue of the learned , to form up an introduction thereunto , but meerly the hand of a faithful transcriber of his own observations ▪ in defence of himself and his cause . rest assured of this , thou hast them here fully and clearly represented . the necessity of this course for thy information , as to the truth of his case , be pleased to consider on these following accounts . he was much over-ruled , diverted , interrupted , and cut short in his plea ( as to a free and full delivery of his mind upon the whole matter at the bar ) by the judges of the kings-bench , and by the kings counsel . he was also denyed the benefit of any counsel to speak on his behalf . and what he did speak at the bar and on the scaffold , was so disgustful to some , that the books of those that took notes of what passed all along in both places , were carefully called in and suppressed . it is therefore altogether unpossible to give thee a full narrative of all he said , or was said to him , either in westminster-hall , or on tower-hill . the defendant foreseeing this , did most carefully set down in writing the substance of what he intended to enlarge upon , the three dayes of his appearance at the kings-bench bar , and the day of his execution . monday june . , was the day of his arraignment . friday june . was the day of his tryal , and the jurors verdict . wednesday june . was the day of his sentence . saturday june . was the day of his execution on tower-hill , where limitations were put upon him , and the interruptions of him by many hard speeches and disturbing carriages of some that compassed him about upon the scaffold , as also by the sounding of trumpets in his face to prevent his being heard , had many eye and ear witnesses . vpon these considerations , i doubt not , it will appear undispensably necessary , to have given this faithful transcript of such papers of his , as do contain the most substantial and pleadable grounds of his publick actings ▪ any time this twenty years and more , as the only means left of giving any tolerable account of the whole matter , to thy satisfaction . yet such information as could be picked up from those that did preserve any notes , taken in court or at the scaffold , are here also recorded for thy use , and that , faithfully , word for word . chancellor fortescue doth right worthily commend the laws of england , as the best now extant and in force , in any nation of the world , affording ( if duely administred ) just outward liberty to the people , and securing the meanest from any oppressive and injurious practices of superiours against them . they give also that just prerogative to princes , that is convenient or truly useful and advantagious for them to have ; that is to say , such as doth not enterfere with the peoples just rights , the intire and most wary preservation of which , as it is the covenant-duty of the prince , so is it his best security and greatest honour . 't is safer and better for him to be loved and rightly feared by free subjects , than to be feared and hated by injured slaves . the main fundamental liberties of the free people of england , are summed up and comprehended in the th chapter of magna charta . these be the words ; no freeman shall be taken or imprisoned , or be disseized of his freehold , or liberties , or free-customs , or be out-lawed or exiled , or any otherwise destroyed . nor will we pass upon him , or condemn him , but by lawful judgement of his peers , or by the law of the land. we will sell to no man , we will not deny or defer to any man , either justice or right . lord chief justice cook observes here nine famous branches of the law of england , couched in this short chapter , and discourses upon them to good purpose . he saith also , that from this chapter , as out of a root , many fruitful branches of the law of england have sprung . as for the very leading injury to other wrongings of the subject , ( to wit , the restraint or imprisonment of his person ) so curious and tender is the law in this point , that ( sayes cook ) no man is to be attached , arrested , taken , or restrained of his liberty , by petition or suggestion to the king or to his council , unless it be by indictment or presentment of good and lawful men ( of the neighbourhood ) where such deeds be done . this great charter of englands liberties , made hen. . and set in the front of all succeeding statute-laws or acts of parliament , ( as the standard , touch-stone or jury for them to be tryed by ) hath been ratified by about two and thirty parliaments , and the petition of right , . caroli . the two most famous ratifications hereof , entituled , confirmationes chartarum , & articuli super chartas , were made and of edw. . all this stir about the great charter , some conceive very needless , seeing that therein are contained those fundamental laws or liberties of the nation , which are so undeniably consonant to the law of nature , or light of reason , that parliaments themselves ought not to abrogate , but preserve them . even parliaments may seem to be bounded in their legislative power and jurisdiction , by divine equity and reason , which is an eternal and therefore unalterable law. hence is it , that an act of parliament that is evidently against common right or reason , is null and void in it self , without more ado . suppose a parliament by their act should constitute a man judge in his own cause , give him a meer arbitrary power ; such act would be in it self void . this is declared to be the ground of that exemplary justice done upon empson and dudley , ( as acting contrary to the peoples liberties in magna charta ) whose case is very memorable in this point . for , though they gratified hen. th in what they did , and had an act of parliament for their warrant , made the th of his reign , yet met they with their due reward from the hands of justice , that act being against equity and common reason , and so , no justifiable ground or apology for those infinit abuses and oppressions of the people , they were found guilty of . the statute , under colour whereof they acted , ran to this effect . be it enacted , that the justices of the assizes , and justices of the peace upon information for the king , before them to be made , have full power and authority by their discretion , to hear and determine all offences and contempts . having this ground , they proceeded against the people , upon meer information , in the execution of penal laws , without any indictment or presentment by good and lawful men , but only by their own promoters or informers , contrary to the th of magna charta , which requires , that no free-man be proceeded against , but by lawful judgment of his peers , or by the law of the land. secondly , this act allowed them to hear and determine arbitrarily , by their own discretion , which is not according to the law and custom of england . and cook sayes , 't is the worst ( and most aggravated ) oppression of all , that is done under the colour of law , or disguise of justice . such a statute or act of parliament , is , not only against the light of reason , but against the express letter of unrepealed statute-law ; . edw. . . it is assented and accorded , that the great charter , and the charter of forest be holden and kept in all points , and if any statute be made to the contrary , that shall be holden for none . this also is consonant to the first chapter of the great charter it self , made . hen. . we have granted to all the free-men of our realm , these liberties under-written , to have and to hold to them and their heirs , of us and our heirs , for ever . but what if this great charter it self had never been made ? had england been to seek for righteous laws and just liberties ? nothing lesse . the same liberties and laws were ratified before that , in the great charter made the seventeenth year of king john , and mentioned ( among others ) by matthew paris . and to what yet amounted the matter of all these grants , but what the kings themselves were bound before to observe , by their coronation oaths , as the antient fundamental laws or customs of this land ? this we may find in mr. lambard's translation of the saxon laws , from the time of king ina , who began anno ; to hen. . who began . amongst the saxons , king alfred is reputed the most famous and learned compiler of our laws , which were still handed along from one king to another , as the unalterable customs of the kingdom . in the th chapter of edward the confessor's laws , the mention of the duty of a king ( which , if not performed , nec nomen regis in eo constabit ) is remarkable . and mr. lambard tells us , that even william the conqueror , did ratifie and observe the same laws that his kinsman edward the confessor did , as obliged by his coronation oath . so then , neither the great charter in king john's time , nor that of . hen. . were properly a new body of law , but a declaration of the antient fundamental laws , rights and liberties of this nation , in brittish , saxon , danish and norman times , before . this , cook in his proem to the second part of his institutes , observes ; where he notes also , that this charter is not called great , for quantity of words , ( a sheet of paper will contain it ) but for the great importance and weight of its matter . through the advice of hubert de burgo chief justice of england , edward the first , in the eleventh year of his reign , did , in a council held at oxford , unjustly cancel this great charter , and that of forest : hubert therefore was justly sentenc'd according to law , by his peers , in open parliament . then , ed. . the statute , called , confirmationes charrarum was made , in the first chapter whereof , the mag. charta is peculiarly called the common law. . ed. . cap. . any judgment given contrary to the said charter , is to be undone and holden for naught and cap. . any that by word , deed , or counsel , go contrary to the said charter , are to be excommunicated by the bishops ; and the arch-bishops of canterbury and york are bound to compel the other bishops to denounce sentence accordingly , in case of their remisness or neglect . the next famous sticklers to hubert de burgo , for arbitrary domination , were the two spencers , father and son , by whose rash and evil counsel ( sayes cook ) edward the second was seduced to break the great charter , and they were banished for their pains . by these passages we may observe , how the people would still be strugling ( in and by their representatives ) for their legal rights and just liberties ; to obviate the encroachers whereof , they procured several new ratifications of their old laws , which were indeed in themselves unrepealable , even by parliaments , if they will act as men , and not contradict the law of their own reason , and of the common reason of all mankind . by ed. . cap. . justices , sheriffs , majors , and other ministers , that have the laws of the land to guide them , are required to allow the said charter to be pleaded in all its points , and in all causes that shall come before them in judgment . this is a clause ( sayes cook ) worthy to be written in letters of gold ; that the laws to be the judges guides , ( and therefore not the judges , the guides of the laws , by their arbitrary glosses ) which never yet misguided any that certainly knew and truly followed them . in consonancy herewith , the spaniard sayes , of all the three learned professions , the lawyer is the only letter'd man , his business and duty being to follow the plain literal construction of the law , as his guide , in giving judgment . pretence of mystery here , carries in the bowels of it , intents , or at least a deep suspition of arbitrary domination . the mind of the law is not subject to be clouded , disturbed or perverted by passion or interest . 't is far otherwise with judges ; therefore 't is fitter and safer the law should guide them , than they the law. cook on the last mentioned statute affirms , that this great charter , and the charter of forest , are properly the common law of this land , or the law that is common to all the people thereof . ed. . cap. . exact care is taken , that no commands by the great or little seal , shall come to disturb or delay common right . or , if such commands come , the justices are not thereby to leave to do right , in any point . so ed. . . ric. . . the judges oath , ed. . , runs thus : if any force come to disturb the execution of the common law , ye shall cause their bodies to be arrested and put into prison . ye shall deny no man right by the king's letters , nor counsel the king any thing that may turn to his dammage or disherison . the late king in his declaration at newmarket , , acknowledged the law to be the rule of his power . and his majesty that now is , in his speech to both houses , the th of may last , said excellently , the good old rules of law are our best security . the common law then , or liberties of england , comprized in the magna charta and the charter of forest , are rendred as secure , as authentick words can set them , from all judgments or precedents to the contrary in any courts , all corrupting advice or evil counsel of any judges , all letters or countermands from the kings person , under the great or privy seals ; yea , and from any acts of parliament it self , that are contrary thereunto . as to the judges , no question , they well know the story of the corrupt judges , executed by king alfred , as also of tresillian , belknap , and many others since . by hen. . cap. . they that serve the king in his wars , according to their duty of allegiance , for defence of the king and the land , are indempnified ; if against the land , and so not according to their allegiance , the last clause of that chapter seems to exclude them from the benefit of this act. hen. . . knights and burgesse of parliament are required not to depart from the parliament , till it be fully finished , ended or prorogued . ed. . cap. . no man is to be imprisoned , disherited , or put to death , without being heard what he can say for himself . ed. . . and . ed. . . a parliament is to be holden every year ▪ or oftner if need be . ric. . cap. . the subjects of this realm are not to be charged with any new imposition , called a benevolence . ed. . c. . all those that make suggestions against any man to the king , are to be sent with their suggestions before the chancellor , treasurer , and his grand council , and there to find surety that they will pursue their suggestions ; and are to incur the same pain , the party by them accused should have had , if attained , in case the suggestion be found evil , or false . jacobi , cap. . all monopolies and dispensations , with penal laws , are made void , as contrary to the great charters . these quotations of several statutes , as ratifications and restorers of the laws of the land , are prefixed to the following discourses and pleas of this sufferer , as certain steady , unmovable land-marks , to which he oft relates . the rouling seas have other laws , peculiar to themselves , as cook observes ( on that expression , law of the land ) in his comment on the th chapter of magna charta . offences done upon the high sea , the admiral takes conusance of , and proceeds by the marine law. but have those steady land-marks , though exactly observed and never so pertinently quoted and urged by this sufferer , failed him , as to the securing of his life ? 't is because we have had land-floods of late ; tumults of the people , that are compared to the raging seas , psal . . . the first paper of this deceased sufferer , towards the defence of his cause and life , preparatory to the tryal , ( as the foundation of all that follows ) before he could know how the indictment was laid , ( and which also a glance back to any crime of treason since the beginning of the late war , that the attorney general reckoned him chargeable with , shews to be very requist ) take as followeth . memorandums touching my defence . the offence objected against me , is levying war , within the statute ed. . and by consequence , a most high and great failer in the duty which the subject , according to the laws of england , stands obliged to perform , in relation to the imperial crown and soveraign power of england . the crime , if it prove any , must needs be very great , considering the circumstances with which it hath been accompaned : for it relates to , and takes in a series of publick action , of above twenty years continuance . it took its rise and had its root in the being , authority judgment , resolutions , votes and orders of a parliament , and that , a parliament not onely authorized and commissionated in the ordinary and customary way , by his majesties writ of summons , and the peoples election and deputation , subject to adjournment , discontinuance , and dissolution , at the king's will ; but which by express act of parliamen● , was constituted in its continuance and exercise of its power free from that subjection , and made therein wholly to depend upon their own will , to be declared in an act of parliament , to be passed for that purpose , when they should see cause . to speak plainly and clearly in this matter ; that which is endeavoured to be made a crime and an offence of such an high nature in my person , is no other than the necessary and unavoidable actings of the representative body of the kingdom , for the preservation of the good people thereof , in their allegiance and duty to god and his law , as also from the imminent dangers and destruction threatned them , from god's and their own enemies . this made both houses in their remonstrance ( may . . ) protest ; if the malignant spirits about the king , should ever force or necessitate them to defend their religion , the kingdom , the priviledges of parliament , and the rights and liberties of the subjects , with their swords ; the blood and destruction that should ensue therupon , must be wholly cast upon their account , god and their own consciences telling them , that they were clear ; and would not doubt , but that god and the whole world would clear them therein . in his majesties answer to the declaration of the two houses , ( may . . ) he acknowledgeth his going into the house of commons to demand the five members , was an errour : and that was it , which gave the parliament the first cause to put themselves in a posture of defence , by their own power and authority , in commanding the trained-bands of the city of london , to guard and secure them from violence , in the discharge of their trust and duty , as the two houses of parliament , appointed by act , to continue , as above-mentioned . the next cause was , his majesties raising forces at york , ( under pretence of a guard ) expressed in the humble petition of the lords and commons , ( may . . ) wherein they beseech his majesty to disband all such forces , and desist from any further designs of that nature , otherwise they should hold themselves bound in duty towards god , and the trust reposed in them by the people , and the fundamental laws and constitutions of this kingdom , to employ their care and utmost power , to secure the parliament , and preserve the peace and quiet of the kingdom . may . , the two houses of parliament gave their judgment , in these votes . first , that it appears , that the king ( seduced by wicked counsel ) intends to make war against the parliament , who in all their consultations and actions have proposed no other end to themselves , but the care of his kingdoms , and the performance of all duty and loyalty to his person . secondly , that whensoever the king maketh war upon the parliament , it is a breach of trust reposed in him by his people , contrary to his oath , and tending to the dissolution of this government . thirdly , that whosoever shall serve or assist him in such wars , are traytors by the fundamental laws of this kingdom , and have been so adjudged by two acts of parliament , and ought to suffer as traitors . die jovis , octob. . . , in the instructions agreed upon by the lords and commons about the militia , they declare , that the king ( seduced by wicked counsel ) hath raised war against the parliament , and other his good subjects . and by the judgment and resolution of both houses , bearing date aug. . , upon occasion of his majesties proclamation for suppressing the present rebellion under the command of robert earl of essex , they do unanimously publish and declare , that all they who have advised , declared , abetted , or countenanced , or hereafter shall abet and countenance the said proclamation , are traytors and enemies to god , the king and kingdom , and guilty of the highest degree of treason that can be committed against the king and kingdom , as that which invites his majesties subjects to destroy his parliament , and good people , by a civil war ; and by that means , to bring ruine , confusion and perpetual slavery upon the surviving part of a then wretched kingdom . the law is acknowledged by the king , to be the onely rule , by which the people can be iustly governed ; and that as it is his duty , so it shall be his perpetual , vigilant care , to see to it : therefore he will not suffer either or both houses by their vo●es , without or against his consent , to enjoyn any thing that is forbidden by the law , or to forbid any thing that is enjoyned by the law. the king does assert in his answer to the houses petition , ( may . . ) that he is a part of the parliament , which they take upon them to defend and secure ; and that his prerogative is a part of , and a defence to the laws of the land. in the remonstrance of both houses , ( may . . ) they do assert ; that if they have made any precedents this parliament , they have made them for posterity , upon the same or better grounds of reason and law , than those were , upon which their predecessors made any for them ; and do say , that as some precedents ought not to be rules for them to follow , so none can be limits to bound their proceedings , which may and must vary , according to the different condition of times . and for the particular , with which they were charged , of setting forth declarations to the people who have chosen and entrusted them with all that is dearest to them , if there be no example for it in former times ; they say , it is because there never were such monsters before , that attempted to disaffect the people towards a parliament . they further say ; his majesties towns are no more his care than his kingdom , nor his kingdom than his people , who are not so his own , that he hath absolute power over them , or in them , as in his proper goods and estate ; but fiduciary , for the kingdom , and in the paramount right of the kingdom . they also acknowledge the law , to be the safeguard and custody of all publick and private interests . they also hold it fit , to declare unto the kingdom , ( whose honour and interest is so much concerned in it ) what is the priviledge of the great council of parliament , herein ; and what is the obligation that lies upon the kings of this realm , as to the passing such bills as are offered to them by both houses , in the name , and for the good of the whole kingdom , whereunto they stand engaged , both in conscience and justice , to give their royal assent . first , in conscience ; in respect of the oath that is , or ought to be taken by them , at their coronation , as well to confirm by their royal assent , all such good laws as the people shall chuse , ( whereby to remedy such inconveniencies as the kingdom may suffer ) as to keep and protect the laws already in being . the form of the oath is upon record , and asserted by books of good authority , unto it relation is had , ed. . entitiled , the statute of provisors of benefices . hereupon , the said commons prayed our said lord the king , ( sith the right of the crown of england , and the law of the said realm , is such , that upon the mischiefs and dammages which happen to this realm , he ought and is bound by his oath , with the accord of his people in parliament , to make remedy and law , for the removing thereof ) that it may please him to ordain remedy . this right , thus claimed by the lords and commons , the king doth not deny , in his answer thereunto . secondly , in justice the kings are obliged as well as in conscience , in respect of the trust reposed in them , to preserve the kingdom by the making of new laws , where there shall be need , as well as by observing of laws already made ; a kingdom being many times as much exposed to ruine for want of a new law , as by the violation of those that are in being . this is a most clear right , not to be denyed , but to be as due from his majesty to his people , as his protection . in all laws framed by both houses , as petitions of right , they have taken themselves to be so far judges of the rights claimed by them , that when the king's answer hath not been in every point , fully according to their desire , they have still insisted upon their claim , and never given it over , till the answer hath been according to their demand , as was done in the late petition of right , . caroli . this shews , the two houses of parliament are judge between the king and the people in question of right , as in the case also of ship-money and other illegal taxes ; and if so , why should they not also be judge in the cases of the common good and necessity of the kingdom , wherein the kingdom hath as clear a right to have the benefit and remedy of the law , as in any other matter , saying pardon and grants of favour ? the malignant party are they , that not only neglect and despise , but labour to undermine the law , under colour of maintaining it . they endeavour to destroy the fountain and conservators of the law , the parliament . they make other judges of the law , than what the law hath appointed . they set up other rules for themselves to walk by , than such as are according to law ; and dispence with the subjects obedience , to that which the law calls authority , and to their determinations and resolutions , to whom the judgment doth appertain by law : yea , though but private persons , they make the law to be their rule , according to their own understanding only , contrary to the judgment of those that are the competent judges thereof . the king asserts , that the act of sir john hotham was levying war against the king , by the letter of the statute , ed. . cap. . the houses state the case , and deny it to be within that statute ; saying , if the letter of that statute be thought to import this ; that no war can be levied against the king , but what is directed and intended against his person ; or , that every levying of forces for the defence of the king's authority , and of his kingdom , against the personal commands of the king , opposed thereunto , ( though accompanied with his presence ) is treason , or levying war against the king ; such interpretation is very far from the sense of that statute , and so much the statute it self speaks , beside the authority of book-cases . for if the clause of levying war had been meant only against the king's person , what need had there been thereof , after the other branch in the same statute , of compassing the king's death , which would necessarily have implied this ? and because the former doth imply this , it seems not at all to be intended , at least not chiefly , in the latter branch , but the levying war against his laws and authority ; and such a levying war , though not against his person , is a levying war against the king ; whereas the levying of force against his personal commands , though accompanied with his presence , and not against his laws and authority , but in the maintenance thereof , is no levying of war against the king , but for him , especially in a time of so many successive plots and designs of force against the parliament and kingdom , of probable invasion from abroad , and of so great distance and alienation of his majesties affections from his parliament and people , and of the particular danger of the place and magazine of hull , of which the two houses sitting , are the most proper judges . in proclaiming sir john hotham traitor , they say , the breach of the priviledge of parliament was very clear , and the subversion of the subjects common right . for though the priviledges of parliament extend not to these cases , mentioned in the declaration of treason , felony , and breach of the peace . so as to exempt the members of parliament from punishment , or from all manner of process and tryal , yet it doth priviledge them in the way and method of their tryal and punishment , and that the parliament should first have the cause brought before them , that they may judge of the fact , and of the grounds of their accusation , and how far forth the manner of their tryal may or may not concern the priviledge of parliament : otherwise , under this pretext , the priviledge of parliament in this matter , may be so essentially broken , as thereby the very being of parliaments may be destroyed . neither doth the sitting of a parliament suspend all or any law , in maintaining that law , which upholds the priviledge of parliament , which upholds the parliament , which upholds the kingdom . they further assert ; that in some sense , they acknowledge the king to be the only person , against whom treason can be committed , that is , as he is king , and that treason which is against the kingdom , is more against the king , than that which is against his person ; because he is king : for treason is not treason , as it is against him as a man , but as a man that is a king , and as he hath , and stands in that relation to the kingdom , entrusted with the kingdom , and discharging that trust . they also a vow , that there can be no competent judge of this or any the like case , but a parliament ; and do say , that if the wicked counsel about the king could master this parliament by force , they would hold up the same power to deprive us of all parliaments , which are the ground and pillar of the subjects liberty , and that which only maketh england a free monarchy . the orders of the two houses carry in them law for their limits , and the safety of the land for their end . this makes them not doubt but all his majesties good subjects will yeeld obedience to his majesties authority , signified therein by both houses of parliament : for whose encouragement , and that they may know their duty in matters of that nature , and upon how sure a ground they go , that follow the judgement of parliament for their guide ; they alledge the true meaning and ground of that statute , . hen. . cap. . printed at large in his majesties message , may ; this statute provides , that none that shall attend upon the king and do him true service , shall be attainted , or forfeit any thing . what was the scope of this statute ? answ . to provide , that men should not suffer as traitors for serving the king in his wars , according to the duty of their allegiance . but if this had been all , it had been a very needless and ridiculous statute . was it then intended ( as they seem to make it , that print it with his majesties message ) that those should be free from all crime and penalty , that should follow the king and serve him in war , in any case whatsoever , whether it were for or against the kingdom or the laws thereof ? that cannot be : for that could not stand with the duty of their allegiance , which , in the beginning of this statute , is expressed to be , to serve the king for the time being in his wars , for the defence of him and the land. if therefore it be against the land , ( as it must be , if it be against the parliament , the representative body of the kingdom ) it is a declining from the duty of allegiance , which this statute supposes may be done , though men should follow the kings person in the war. otherwise , there had been no need of such a proviso in the end of the statute , that none should take benefit thereby , that should decline from their allegiance . that therefore which is the principal verb in this , is the serving of the king for the time being , which cannot be meant of a perkin warbeck , or any that should call himself king , but such a one , as ( whatever his title might prove , either in himself or in his ancestors ) should be received and acknowledged for such , by the kingdome , the consent whereof cannot be discern'd but by parliament ; the act whereof , is the act of the whole kingdom , by the personal suffrage of the peers , and the delegate consent of the commons of england . henry th therefore , a wise prince , to clear this matter of contest , happening between kings de facto and kings de jure , procured this statute to be made , that none shall be accounted a traitor for serving in his wars , the king for the time being ; that is , him that is for the present allowed and received by the parliament in behalf of the kingdom . and as it is truly suggested in the preamble of the statute ; it is not agreeable to reason or conscience , that it should be otherwise , seeing men should be put upon an impossibility of knowing their duty , if the judgment of the highest court should not be a rule to guide them . and if the judgment thereof is to be followed , when the question is , who is king ? much more , when the question is , what is the best service of the king and kingdom ? those therefore that shall guide themselves by the judgment of parliament , ought ( what ever happen ) to be secure and free from all account and penalties , upon the ground and equity of this statute . to make the parliament countenancers of treason , they say , is enough to have dissolv'd all the bands of service and confidence between his majesty and his parliament , of whom the law sayes , a dishonourable thing ought not to be imagined . this conclusion then is a clear result from what hath been argued ; that in all cases of such difficulty and unusualness , happening by the over-ruling providence of god , as render it impossible for the subject to know his duty , by any known law or certain rule extant , his relying then , upon the judgment and reason of the whole realm , declared by their representative body in parliament , then sitting , and adhering thereto , and pursuing thereof , ( though the same afterwards be by succeeding parliaments , judged erroneous , factious and unjust ) is most agreeable to right reason and good conscience ; and in so doing , all persons are to be free and secure from all account and penalties , not only upon the ground and equity of that statute , hen. . but according to all rules of justice , natural or moral . the day of arraignment , being monday june . . reader , the best account thou canst yet be furnished with , as to this dayes proceedings in court , is , as followeth . sir henry vane was the last term , indicted of high treason , before the middlesex grand jury , and the bill being found by them , he was upon monday the second of june this term , arraigned , to this effect . that you as a false traitor against his most excellent majesty king charles the second , your supream and natural lord , not having the fear of god before your eyes , and withdrawing that your duty and allegiance , which a true subject ought to have and bear to our said leige and sovereign lord , thirteenth of may , in the eleventh year of our said sovereign lord the king , at the parish of st. martins in the fields in the country of middlesex , did compass and imagine the death of our said sovereign lord the king , and the ancient frame of government of this realm , totally to subvert and keep out our said sovereign lord from the exercise of his regal government ; and the same the better to effect , the said sir henry vane the said thirteenth day of may , in the said eleventh your , &c. at st. martins aforesaid , together with other false traitors , to the jurors unknown , did traiterously and maliciously assemble and sit together , and then and there consulted to bring the king unto destruction , and to hold him out from the exercise of his regal authority , and then and there usurped the government , and appointed officers , to wit , colonels and captains of a certain army , raised against the king , against the peace of our sovereign lord the king his crown and dignity , and contrary to the form of the statute in that case made and provided . and the better to effect this , the twentieth of december , in the said eleventh year , with a multitude , to the number of a thousand persons , to the jurors unknown , in warlike manner assembled , and arrayed with guns , trumpets , drums , &c. did levy war against the peace , &c. and contrary to the form of a statute . which being read , he prayed to have it read a second time , which was granted him . he then prayed to have it read in latine , which all the court denyed , and keeling the king's serjeant said , that though all pleas and entries are set down on record in latine , yet the agitations of causes in court , ought to be in english . the prisoner moved several exceptions to the indictment , as that the . ed. . is not pursued ; that he had levied no such force as amounted to a levying of war ; also , the place in which , persons with whom , are both uncertain ; and the particular acts of levying war , being not set forth , he thought therefore the indictment was insufficient . also , he said , here is a long time of action for which i am charged , and i may be concern'd for what i acted as a member in that sovereign court of parliament , and if any thing concerns the jurisdiction of that court , i ought not to be judged here ; at which the court and king's counsel took great offence . he said also ; there hath been an act of general pardon , since that time , whereby all treasons are put in utter oblivion , and though sir henry vane were excepted , yet none consent that he was that sir henry vane . but the king's counsel said , if he would plead that plea , they would joyn that issue with him , if he pleased , which if it should be found against him , it would be too late to plead , not guilty . but the court said , in favour of life , a man may plead a double plea , and give in his exception , and plead over to the felony or treason , not guilty . but as to the exceptions taken to the indictment , they gave little heed to them , but pressed him to plead or confess . whereupon he pleaded , not guilty ; and had four dayes , to wit , till friday next , for his tryal . from another hand , take , as followeth . the prisoner did much press for counsel to be allowed him , to advise with about any further exceptions to the indictment , besides those by him exhibited , and to put all into form , according to the customary proceedings and language of the law , as also to speak to them at the bar , on his behalf , he not being vers'd in the punctilio's of law-writings and pleas. he further said . that the indictment , which so nearly concern'd his life , being long , and his memory short , it could not well be imagined that he should upon the bare hearing it read , be able in an instant to find out every material exception against it , in form or matter . he pleaded a good while on this account , but counsel was finally denied him till he should plead guilty or not guilty , unto which , being a third time urged , he pleaded not guilty ; the court having assured him beforehand , that after pleading , counsel should be assigned him , which yet never was performed . here followeth a transcript of the prisoners own papers , containing certain memorandums pleadable upon his arraignment . memorandums for , and towards my defence . upon hearing the indictment read , and before pleading . first , to lay before the court the impossibility that he humbly conceives , is already in view , as to the having any such indifferent and equal tryal , as the law intends him , and doth require and command on the behalf of all the free-people of england . the rise for this conception he takes from what hath been already done in relation to the prisoner himself , unheard , unexamined , and yet kept close prisoner for near two whole years . this he shall leave to the judgment of the court , after he hath made known the particulars thereof unto them , as necessary to precede the thing demanded of him , in pleading guilty , or not guilty . secondly , what is the indifferency which the law requires and appoints throughout , as well in matters that go before the tryal , as in the proceedings at the tryal if it self ? before the tryal , and in the first step to it , which is the keeping and securing his person , magna charta is clear , and gives this rule , cap . nullus liber homo capiatur , &c. no free-man shall be taken or imprisoned , or be disseised of his freehold or liberties , or free-customs , or be outlawed or exiled , or any otherwise destroyed ; nor we will not passe upon him , nor condemn him , but by lawful judgement of his peers , or by the law of the land : we will sell to no man , we will not deny or defer to any man either justice or right . out of this chapter , as out of a root ( saith sir edward cook ) do many fruitful branches of the law of england spring . it contains nine branches ; some whereof i shall insist upon in my case . first , that no man be taken or imprisoned but per legem terrae , that is , by the common law or custom of england ; which words , per legem terrae , though put last , refer to all the precedent branches . secondly , the goods of any offender cannot regularly be taken and seized to the king's use before conviction , nor be inventoried , nor the town charged therewith , before the owner be indicted of record . thirdly , no man shall be exiled or banished out of his country , not be in any sort destroyed but by the verdict of his peers . this appears by bracton and other ancient writers , quoted by cook , in the third part of his institutes , fol. . upon the whole matter saith cook , these two conclusions are manifestly proved . first , that before indictment , the goods or other things of any offender cannot be searched , inventoried or in any sort seized , nor after indictment , seized , removed , or taken away , before conviction or attainder . secondly , that the begging of the goods or estate of any delinquent , accused or indicted of any treason , felony , or other offence , before he be convicted and attainted , is utterly unlawful ; stat. ri. . cap. . and besides , it maketh the prosecution against the delinquent , more precipitant , violent and undue , than the quiet and equal proceedings of the law and justice would permit : or else , by some under-hand agreement , stops or hinders the due course of justice , and discourageth both judge , juror and witness to do their duty . thirdly , the judges are not to give so much as their opinion before-hand , concerning the offence , whether it prove that offence in that case . cook in the chap. of petty treason , fol. . expresly saith ; and to the end the tryal may be the more indifferent , seeing the safety of the prisoner consists in the indifferency of the court , the judges ought not to deliver their opinions before-hand , of any criminal case , that may come before them judicially . and he there cites humphrey staffords case that arch traitor , in which hussey chief justice , besought hen. . not to demand of them their opinions before-hand . and in the th of his institutes , in the chap. of the high court of parliament , fol. , he fully shews the evil of asking the judges opinions before-hand . but instead of this , the judges being assistant in the lords house , when all acts of parliament passe , and whose advice is taken in them , have ( as appears by what is declared in the said acts ) prejudg'd by their opinions and the opinions of the parliament before-hand , the merit of the cause that now appears to be put upon the issue in my tryal . hereby the judges are rendred ex parte , and the indifferency the law requires , impossible to be afforded . nor is this all ; but by the rules declared in the act of indempnity ; all are disenabled to plead , or make use of the ordinances , orders and votes of both , or either houses of parliament , that may have occasion thereof ; and then by excepting the prisoner and his fellow out of the said act , and all benefit thereby , a door is left open to arraign , bring to tryal and sentence the whole cause from the beginning to the ending , in the person of the prisoner , and at the same time , deprive him of all means and possibility of justification and defence . fourthly , it is observable how early hard measure appeared in the way wherein the prisoner became excepted out of the act of indempnity , when the commons , his proper judges , declared him in their thoughts , not fit to be endangered in the point of life ; yet unto the judgment of the lords , ( that ought not to judge commoners , unbrought before them by the commons , much less , in opposite judgement to the commons ) the commons were necessitated to yeeld , lest otherwise the act of indempnity to the whole nation should stop upon this dispute and essential difference between the two houses ; a competition , easily over-ruled ; although ( as it proves by the sequel ) that act of indempnity is like to become felo de se , or a destroyer of it self , if your lordships shall conceive your selves at liberty , ( notwithstanding that act ) not only to bring anew into memory upon the stage , the state of all the passed differences , from first to last , but to try and judge the merit of them in my person , and therein call in question the validity of that whole act , and make void the benefit intended by it , in case the war undertaken and managed by both or either of the houses of parliament , be judged unlawful , and within the statute of . ed. . for this adjudges all the people of england morally guilty of the evil of a sin and offence against the law of nature , which once done , what ever promised indempnity be granted for the present , the evil of the action remaining upon record ; not only to the infamy of the whole people of england , but their future danger , upon pretence they have forfeited the very indempnity granted . fifthly , the length of time taken to search out matter against the prisoner , and the undue practices and courses to find out witnesses , do further evidence how unlike the prisoner is to have an equal and indifferent tryal . he doubts not , this will appear in his two years close imprisonement , ( six months whereof was banishment ) during which time , he was never so much as once examined , or had any question put to him , whereby he might conjecture wherefore he was committed to prison , any further than was expressed in the warrants of commitments . now these were so general , that nothing certain or particular could be gathered out of them . but upon the received opinion , that he was excepted out of the act of indempnity , and in the sence of both houses , a great delinquent , his estate was attempted to be inventoried , his rentals demanded , his rents were actually seized in the tenants hands , and they forbidden to pay them . his very courts were prohibited by officers of great personages , claiming the grant of the estate , and threatning his officers from doing their duty . by these kind of undue proceedings , the prisoner had not wherewithal to maintain himself in prison , and his debts , to the value of above ten thousand pounds , were undischarged , either principal or interest . the hopes of private lucre and profit hereby , was such , in the tenants and other persons , sought out for far and near , to be witnesses , that it is no wonder at last , something by way of charge comes to be exhibited . and as this is the case of the person before his appearance at this bar , with respect to the foresaid unequal proceedings towards him , and the great disadvantages put upon him , and all these , as it were , in a continued series of design ; so , the matters and things themselves with which it now appears he is charged in the indictment , make his case still very extraordinary and unusual , involving him in difficulties that are insuperable , unless god's own immediate power do shew it self in working his deliverance . the things done , are for many years past , in a time of differences between king and parliament , and wars ensuing thereupon . many extraordinary changes and revolutions in the state and government were necessitated in the course of god's providence , for wise and holy ends of his , above the reach of humane wisdom . the authority by which they are done , is prejudged . the orders , votes and resolutions of parliament are made useless , and forbidden to be produced . hereby , all manner of defence is taken away from the prisoner ; and that which was done according to law , as the laws of those times were , is endeavoured to be made unlawful , and so the persons , acting according to such laws , are brought to punishment . the judges ( as hath been shewed ) are forestalled in their judgements , by the declared sence of parliaments , given ex post facto . the jurors are put upon difficulties never known before , for twelve commoners to judge the actions of all the commons of england , in whom they are included , as to whose judgment is the right , the one or the others ; and whether their representatives be trusty . the party indicted is under an incapacity to bring witnesses , as well from the nature of the place wherein the things were done , within the walls of the house , as from the shortness of time , having heard nothing of his charge , and being kept a close prisoner to the last day . his solicitors and persons imployed in his law-businesses , were also restrained from him . it is also most evident , that the matters for which he is questioned , being the product of so many years agitations of parliamantary counsels and arms , cannot be of a single concern , nor be reputed as the actions of a private man , done of his own head , nor therefore come within any of the six classes of treason , contained in . ed. . it is a case most unusual , and never happening before in this kingdom ; yet it is alledged in the indictment to be a levying war within that statute , and so comes to have the name of high treason put upon it , thereby ( if possible ) to deprive him of the use and benefit of counsel , as also of competent time to prepare for his defence , and all fitting and requisit means for the clearing of his innocency . unto this , unless some remedy be afforded by the justice , candor and favour of this court , it may be better for the prisoner ( for ought he yet knows ) to be immediately destroyed by special command ( if nothing else will satisfie ) without any form of law , as one to whom quarter , after at least two years cool blood , is thought fit to be denied in relation to the late wars . this may seem better , than under a colour and form of justice , to pretend to give him the benefit of the law and the king's courts , whose part it is , to set free the innocent , upon an equal and indifferent tryal had before them , if their cause will bear it : but it is very visible beforehand , that all possible means of defence are taken and withheld from him , and laws are made ex post facto , to fore-judge the merit of the cause , the party being unheard . and when he hath said all this , that as a rational man , does occur to him , and is fit for him to represent in all humility to the court , he craves leave further to adde ; that he stands at this bar not only as a man , and a man clothed with the priviledges of the most sovereign court , but as a christian , that hath faith and reliance in god , through whose gracious and wise appointment , he is brought into these circumstances , and unto this place at this time , whose will he desires to be found resigned up into , as well in what he now calls him to suffer , as in what he hath called him formerly to act , for the good of his country , and of the people of god in it . upon this bottom ( he blesses the name of his god ) he is fearless , and knows the issue will be good what ever it prove . god's strength may appear in the prisoner's weakness ; and the more all things carry the face of certain ruine and destruction unto all that is near and dear to him in this world , the more will divine deliverance and salvation appear ; to the making good of that scripture , that he that is content to lose his life in god's cause and way , shall save it , and he that instead thereof goes about to save his life upon undue terms , shall lose it . far be it therefore from me , to have knowingly , maliciously or wittingly offended the law , rightly understood and asserted ; much less , to have done any thing that is malum per se , or that is morally evil . this is that i allow not as i am a man , and what i desire with stedfastness to resist , as i am a christian . if i can judge any thing of my own case , the true reason of the present difficulties and straits i am in , is because i have desired to walk by a just and righteous rule in all my actions , and not to serve the lusts and passions of men , but had rather die , than wittingly and deliberately sin against god and transgress his holy laws , or prefer my own private interest before the good of the whole community i relate unto , in the kingdom where the lot of my residence is cast . here follow the chief observables ( as to matter of new argument ) on the day of his tryal , being friday june . . on this day , the sheriff returned forty eight freeholders of the country of middlesex . after thirty two were challenged by the prisoner , he had a jury of twelve men sworn , to wit , sir william roberts , junior . sir christopher abdy . john stone . henry carter . john leech . daniel cole . daniel browne . thomas chelsam . thomas pitts . thomas vpman . andrew bent , and william smith . the attorney-general's speech to the jury . the indictment is , for traiterously imagining and intending , &c. the death of the king. this very imagination and compassing , &c. is treason . yet , forasmuch as the intentions of the heart are secret ; the law cannot take notice of them , till they are declared by overt act. therefore we shall give in evidence , that for the accomplishing of these intentions , the prisoner sate with others in several councils , or rather confederacies , incroached the government , levied forces , appointed officers , and at last , levied open and actual war , in the head of a regiment . if any of these crimes be proved , it is sufficient to make him guilty within this indictment . and the open levying of war , and appearing in the head of a regiment , is not only a treason of it self , but an evidence of all those other treasons he stands charged with in the indictment . these things happening before the act of oblivion , you will take notice of that act , and that the prisoner being excepted by name from the benefit of that pardon , though he be chargeable for any crime of treason since the beginning of the late war , yet we shall confine the facts for which we charge him , to the reign of his now majesty . after the house had voted the late king's concessions in the isle of wight to be a good ground for peace , many of the members were kept out by force , others turned out ; the peers laid aside , and at last , the king murdered . the first thing then that we shall lay to the charge of the prisoner , is , that that very day , wherein that horried act was committed , we find his hand and seal to a warrant to the officers of the navie , to issue out stores for a summers guard of the narrow seas . this was the first day of the reign of his now majesty ; and so he enumerated all the particulars which he intended to charge him with , and proved them , as followeth . . the warrant of the th of jan. , was proved to be the hand of sir henry vane , by thomas lewis and thomas turner , as they believe , neither of them affirming that they saw him write it , but knowing his hand , believed it to be so . . ralph darnel , an under-clerk of the house of commons , proved the journal book of the house , and said , though he will not take upon him to say , when sir henry vane was there , and when he was absent , yet he said positively , that at what time soever he is set down in the journal , to have acted or reported any thing , he was there . in which book , febr. . . fol. , was the order to set up a council of state. fol. . th feb. were the instructions presented to the house , upon which the council of state was to act . . the first was , that you , or any four or more , are to suppress all and every person and persons pretending title to the kingly government of this nation , from or by the late king ; charles steward , his son ; or any claiming from or by them or either of them , or any other single person whatsoever . this the attorney said , was in the first part of that instruction , to destroy the king's person , and in the second part , the kingly government . . that you , &c. are appointed to direct the forces of this commonwealth , for the preventing and suppressing of tumults and insurrections at home , or invasions from abroad ; and for these ends , to raise forces , &c. . that febr. . . fol. ; sir henry vane was chosen a member of the council of state , and acted upon these instructions , which they proved thus ; to wit , first , that sir henry vane , as ( fol. ) d of march , reported from the council of state , an estimate of the number of ships for the summers guard of the narrow seas . secondly , march . , sir henry vane reports from the council of state , that ten thousand pounds , parcel of the twenty thousand pounds , assessed upon south wales for their delinquency , be allowed towards the setting out of this fleet , for the service of the parliament ; which was ordered accordingly , and to be paid to sir henry vane , as treasurer of the navie . thirdly , that sir hen. vane usually sate in council , but this deponent , being never admitted to go in , after the council was sate , proves , that he often saw him go in at the fore-door and back-door , and often continue there all the time the council was sitting . william dobbins and matthew lock say , that they several times saw sir henry vane sit in a committee of the council , in the years and , which consisted only of members of the council , and particularly at the committee for scotish and irish affairs , where sir henry vane was often in the chair , and produced several ●●ders of that committee . fourthly , febr. . , a new council of state was chosen , of which sir henry vane was one , fol. . feb. . , all the instructions of the former year were read and assented to . feb. . . fol. , sir henry vane reported the form of an oath of secresie to be administred to every of the members of the council , which was , to keep all things which should be transacted in council , secret , and to be true and faithful to their instructions ; which the attorney said , ( since their first instruction was , to suppress all persons pretending title from the king ) was in effect , an oath of abjuration . fifthly , anno , sir henry vane was president of the council of state , and several warrants were produced , to wit , may . , and d of may - ; to deliver to major wigan , two hundred firelocks , and ten drums . the other , for the delivery of five hundred foot-arms , for recruit of col. ingoldsbyes regiment ; and these were subscribed by order of the council , h. vane , president . april . . a warrant of that date was produced by the commissioners of the navy , of which he was one , for furnishing out the hampshire frigat , with provisions and ammunition for the use of the state. from this time to , they charge him with nothing , and then the journal-book was produced and attested by ralph darnel , wherein , may . , an order was made for appointing a committee of safety ( whereof sir henry vane was one ) that they , or any four or more of them , should take care of the safety of this commonwealth , and they to sit for eight dayes and no longer , fol. . die ven. may . , sir henry vane reported , that they had conferred with all the foreign ambassadors . that the common-wealth is in amity with all foreign princes , but spain . resolved , that ch. fleetwood , j. lambert , j. disbrough , jam. berry , arthur haslerigg , edmund ludlow , and sir henry vane be commissioners to nominate commission-officers for the army of this commonwealth . by vertue hereof they proceeded , june . , to nominate commission-officers , appointed robert mosse a colonel , presenting a list of his commission-officiers ; and john mason to be governour of jersey . die ven. may . fol. . sir henry vane reports , concerning affairs between the two northern kings , in the zound , wherein the affairs of this commonwealth are concerned . die ven. sept. . . at the committee of state at white-hall , an order was produced for the redelivery of the city-horses to their respective owners , signed , h. vane , president . a warrant was produced under the hand of sir henry vane , proved by thomas lewis and one falconer , for so many hangers to col. tompson , as he shall require for his regiment . three several letters , to deliver arms for the use of my regiment ; to wit , to sam. linn my capt. leiutenant , arms for my company ; to maj. tho. shurman , major of my regiment , four or five barrels of powder . then one marsh was produced a witness , who proves , that sir henry vane proposed the new model of government , whitlock being in the chair , in these particulars ; . that the supream power , delegated by the people to their trustees , ought to be in some fundamentals not dispensed with . . that it is destructive to the peoples liberties ( to which by god's blessing they are restored ) to admit any earthly king or single person , to the legislative or executive power over this nation . . that the supream power delegated , is not on trusted to the peoples trustees , to erect matters of faith or worship , so as to exercise compulsion therein . tho. pury proves , that he was at the debating of the two last of these propositions , and believes they were proposed to the chairman whitlock , by sir henry vane ; but affirms confidently , that sir hen. vane gave reasons to maintain them . tho. wallis produced , proves sir henry vane and col. rich in the head of a company , in winchester park in southwark , and that the capt. leiutenant linn said to the souldiers , that sir henry vane had given them five pounds to drink ; that the said linn sent home a key to his wife , to send him four pounds out of his trunk , to give the souldiers . john cook deposeth , that he was sent to the horseshoe-stairs , to meet sir henry vane and col. rich , and that sir h. vane delivered five pound to capt. linn , to reward the souldiers . this was all the evidence given by the king's counsel ; to which , sir henry vane was required to make his defence ; and to go through with his case all at once , and not to reply again upon the king's counsel , who resolved to have the last word to the jury . sir henry vane . cook in his pleas of the crown , fol. . saith , king is to be understood of a king regnant and in actual possession of the crown , and not of a king when he is onely rex de jure , and out of possession . now an interregnum is confessed by the indictment . all ensigns of authority and badges of government , were visibly in another name and stile ; the king 's best friends suing , and being sued , in another name . the court told him , he should first make his case out in point of suit , and it would be then seasonable to stand upon matter of law ; for ( said they ) it is a good rule , in facto jus oritur , and enjoyn'd him to call his witnesses , if he had any . to which sir henry vane desired process of court , to summon them ; and a further time , to answer the charge . but it was told him , the jury were to be kept without meat , drink , fire or candle , till their verdict was delivered in ; and therefore that could not be granted . he then cited the th part of cook 's institutes , concerning the priviledge of parliament , and that many of these things , being transacted there — the court here interrupted him , and said ; if the things charged , were done ; justifie them : if not , excuse them . so he went to give answer to the fact. and as to the first warrant , jan. . ; he said , that his hand had been oftentimes counterseited , and amongst other occasions , for two great sums , to the value of ten thousand pounds ; and that he had great reason to believe , that this warrant was forged , and produced two witnesses to prove it . then said windham , justice ; it may be your hand may have been forged for receiving of money , but it is not to be conjectured that it should be forged to set ships to sea ; and directed to the jury to consider of the circumstances . sir h. vane . neither of the witnesses ever saw me set my hand to either of these warrants or orders , nor doth one witness prove that he ever saw me sit in the council of state : he further said , that he absented from the house from decemb. . , till febr. . that he 〈◊〉 ●●osen a member of the council of state without his consent and knowledge ; and being demanded to take an oath of approbation of what had been done to the late king , he refused , and caused it to be expunged . that these actings in council , ( if any were ) were by authority of parliament , of a parliament constituted in an extraordinary manner , made indissolvable but by act of parliament . he insisted much on the preamble of that act , so as that parliament being co-ordinate with the king , ( for the government was in the king and the two houses ) what-ever he acted by them or their authority , cannot be treason within the statute of ed. . he cited an ordinance of parliament in , and said , that he hoped these things had been laid asleep by the act of oblivion , and if they should now rise in judgment against him , he feared they would shake that security which the people promised themselves under that act. but if he should be now called in question for those things which were transacted in that parliament , of which he was a member , he shal have the comfort and peace of those actions to support him in his greatest sufferings . he added , that if he were excepted , then must he be judged for the crime of the whole nation , and that crime must be ravelled into through him . that the case is such , as never yet fell out , to wit , that the government being entrusted to three estates , they should so fall out among themselves , as the people cannot tell which to obey ; that where these great changes fall out , it is not possible for any man to proceed according to all formalities of law. that there was a political power by this act of . caroli co-ordinate with the king ; and where these powers are not in conjunction , but enmity to each other , no court inferiour to the parliament , by whose authority these things were acted , ought to be judges of this case , which certainly never happened before . he farther saith , he was not the first mover in these actions , and that he should be called in question for these matters , by a king that was out of possession at the time when these things were acted , would be inconvenient , to say no more ; that when the three estates were disjoyned , he thought it the best policy , to preserve the government in its root , to wit , the commons : by whom it was preserved and at last restored to its former course . that as to the regiment that passed under his name , he disown'd it . that reports of messages are not the fault of the reporter , for his judgment does not always go along with them , but he is bound to deliver his message . that he alwayes loved the government , as it is set forth in our ancient law-books ; and that that parliament ( so much decried ) at last restored affairs to the ●●sture in which they now are . as to the warrants signed by him , he said , they appear to be signed in the name and by order of the council , and his hand that subscribes , is not so much active as passive , to the commands of the council . if the council , who commanded the signing , were unwarrantable , the parliament who appointed the council , must be much more unwarrantable . and here he offered these points to be considered , and pray'd earnestly to have counsel assigned him , to speak to them . . whether the collective body of the parliament can be impeached of high treason . . whether any person acting by authority of parliament , can ( so long as he acteth by that authority ) commit treason ? . whether matters acted by that authority , can be called in question in an inferiour court ? . whether a king de jure , and out of possession , can have treason committed against him , he not being king de facto , and in actual possession ? and pray'd it might be argued by counsel . . whether matters done in southwark , in another county , may be given in evidence to a middlesex jury ? as to the last exception , the court said , that he was indicted for compassing and imagining the king's death in middlesex , and any overt act , to prove this imagination , may be given in evidence wheresoever it be acted . to which sir hen. vane prayed the benefit of a bill of exception , upon the statute of westminster . cap. . and prayed that the justices might seal it , which they all refused , and held , it lay not in any case of the crown . the king's counsel desired he might call his witnesses , ( if any he had ) for if they once came to reply to him , he must then be silent , and consented , that ( if it would aid him ) they would allow his actings to be in the name and by the authority of the council of state , and the actings of the council of state to be by authority of what he called a parliament . sir hen. vane replyed ; then what i acted in the council of state , and committee of safety , constituted by the parliament to endure for eight dayes , you will allow me . then you must prove that i ever acted in the other council of state , after the parliament was turned out . then the king's counsel produced a warrant , dated novemb. . , which was sent in pursuance of an order of the committee of safety , by sir hen. vane , as treasurer of the navie . this warrant was , for the sending of divers arms northwards , after mr. lambert , who was gone down to oppose the now duke of albemarle . sir hen. vane produced will , angel , brisco , middleton , &c. officers of that regiment which went under his name , who having recourse unto him for orders , about octob. , he bad them desist , and declared his dis-satisfaction in their proceedings ; and this , after their several importunities to have orders from him . and thus he closed his defence . fynch , sollicitor . as to pretence of the power of parliament , it is to be known , that it was not the eighth part of the house of commons , such as were let in to do all that hath been complained , and the acting under authority of such an end of a parliament , under such a violation , was no excuse , but an aggravation ; but that the parliament was in law , ended , by the death of the late king , notwithstanding that act of . caroli primi , appears thus ; first , the king 's writ for a parliament is ad tractandum nobiscum ; which is intended as well of the natural capacity of the king , as of his politick . secondly , 't is absurd to say , that the acts of parliament of king charles the first , should be his acts , in the time of king charles the second . thirdly , a commission of sewers , enacted to be on foot for ten years , expires by the death of the king , and the authority of the commissioners is at an end . fourthly , it is not possible for one king to impose a parliament upon a successor . so much for his acting by colour of authority of parliament . and as to the question , whether an house of parliament can commit treason ? if they depart from that allegiance which they have sworn , at their first meeting , they are impeachable for it . as to a co-ordination in the parliament , he denied it . as to the question , whether the king being out of actual possession , can have treason committed against him ? he affirmed it : and said , otherwise , if rebellion should be so prosperous , as to depose or oppress the king in battel , the offenders are not to be called in question , because they prevailed . he said , it was the plea of watson the jesuite , who , being indicted for compassing the death of king james , in scotland , after he was declared king of england , and before his actual entring into this realm , made this defence ; that the king was never in possession of the crown . windam justice . as to the act of . caroli , and the preamble of that act , so much insisted upon by the prisoner . . he held that the parliament had not greater authority by it , but were onely made more durable than other parliaments have been ; but he held , that the parliament was absolutely dissolved by the death of the king ; and put this case : if it should be enacted that such a marriage should continue , till it was dissolved by act of parliament , if one dies , it is a determination of it in fact , so as no man can say , but it is absolutely dissolved . . it must continue in the degree and dignity of a parliament . if the house be under a force , and some kept out , some let in , to serve a turn , what-ever they act is a nullity in law. for freedom is the principal essence and honour of a parliament ; yet though the house be under a force , the house is not dissolved by such force , but the proceedings are to be suspended , till it require its former liberty ; and this as well by the common law , as by the civil and canon laws of all other countries . . the parliament is the king 's great council , the peers are consiliarii nati ; if they be forc'd away , or laid aside , as here they were , all the rest is but magni nominis umbra . twisden held the same opinion , that it is not the sitting of a few members within those walls , that will continue it a parliament . and though another parliament , a great many years after the kings death , declared it to be at an end , yet that act was but declaration , it was at an end before . whether a parliament may commit treason , is not the question ▪ but , whether a few of the house , shutting out their fellows , and usurping the government , were not traitors ? foster held the same opinion , and said , the distinction between the politick and natural capacity of the king , was the treason of the two spencers ; that priviledge of the parliament is no shelter for breach of the peace , much less for treason . twisden added , that to compass the death of the king as a natural person , was treason ; to compass his death in his politick capacity , as to depose him , was treason , and both provided for by the act of . ed. . that in the same instant the late king expired , in the very same his now majesty was king de facto , and affirmed the cases of watson and cleark . jac. if an army be raised against the king , and the king is slain in the battel , this treason is questionable by the successor , as stonies case is in dyer . thus ended the questions of law , proposed . the sollicitor spake after to the jury , concerning the fact , which after , they withdrew to consider , and being withdrawn about half an hour , returned with their verdict , which being delivered by the foreman in the name of his fellows , with their consent , found the prisoner guilty of high treason from januar. . . they not only found him guilty according to the indictment , which was laid for what the prisoner did , ; but for a long series of high treason ( as they reckon ) from jan. . . by which it may appear , they were a well-prepared jury for their work . the judges oft , if not alwayes , pretend , that the jury is to pass verdict only as to matter of fact , according to the evidence given by the witnesses thereof . but a general verdict evidently involves both , that he is guilty of such fact , and that the fact is treason , as they in this verdict openly undertake to determine , taking in the full sence of the indictment , and much more . unless a jury distinguish themselves out of this usually imposed snare , by giving a special verdict concerning the fact only , they undeniably have a share with their tutors and instructors in the shedding of innocent blood , in case matter of law be wrongfully stated . for a jury to resolve a case of law , that so eminent a subjects life was concern'd in , and that in less than half an hour , which never yet came before any bench of judicature in england , may seem a very strange and bold adventure . but reader , how far this falls short of a full account of all that was spoken by the prisoner ( though much interrupted by the king's bench and counsel ) in those ten hours , which on this day of his tryal he stood at the bar , ( pleading and answering for his life , and the cause he had with many thousands been engaged in ) i leave to thee to imagine , till a fuller and compleater account thereof can be obtained , than is yet come to hand . this was remarkable ; that never being indulg'd the liberty of any repose to his body , all that while , ( which indeed , he asked not ) nor receiving any creature-refreshings , though sent him , for his support ; yea , and though after all his most rational plea , in his defence , the jury gave their verdict against his life , he came chearfully and pleasantly from the bar , as thought worthy to suffer for the name of christ ; and was so raised and full of rejoycing that evening , at the place of his confinement in the tower , that he was a wonder to any that were about him . this spiritual rejoycing in christ jesus , and his heavenly raisedness of spirit , increased more and more , to the very moment of his death ; insomuch , that meer strangers to his person , yea , very foreigners , wondred at his triumphant dissolution . the true copy of the prisoner's own papers , containing the substance of what he pleaded on the said day of his tryal , june . memorandums as to my main defence , in relation to matter of fact , and as a narrative thereof . that without any seeking of mine , i was chosen by writ under the great seal , to serve as burgess for the town of kingston upon hull , in the parliament that sate down on the third of novemb. . and having in pursuance thereof , taken my seat in the said parliament , i was obliged by law , to give my attendance upon the said trust , as well as upon grounds of duty and conscience . the said parliament was not onely called and assembled after the usual manner , and had the power and priviledges incident to that high court , but was by express statute and consent of the three estates , so constituted , as to its continuance , adjournment , prorogation and dissolution , that in none of these particulars they were subject to alteration , but by their own common assent , declared by act of parliament , to be passed by themselves for that purpose , with the royal assent . in the preamble to the act for continuance of the said parliament , these words are contained : whereas great sums of money must of necessity be speedily advanced and provided , for the relief of his majesties army and people in the northern parts of this realm , and for preventing the imminent danger this kingdom is in , and for supply of his majesties present and urgent occasions , which cannot be so timely effected as is requisit , without credit for raising the said moneys ; which credit cannot be obtained until such obstacles be first removed , as are occasioned by fears , jealousies and apprehensions of divers his majesties loyal subjects , that this present parliament may be adjourned , prorogued or dissolved , before justice shall be duely executed upon delinquents , publick grievances redressed , a firm peace between the two nations of england and scotland concluded , and before sufficient provision be made for the repayment of the said moneys so to be raised , &c. by all which , the very work that was between the three estates agreed to be done for the good and safety of the kingdom , was in sundry particulars declared and expressed ; and not only so , but as is acknowledged by the late king himself in his answer to the nineteen propositions ; the power which thereby was legally placed in both houses , was more than sufficient to prevent and restrain tyranny . so that , by what hath been shewed , the law it self is with me , and for me , enjoyning my continued attendance on the trust which by this means was committed to me , and authorized me in particular to effect the things contained in the said preamble ; and to act in all matters belonging to the high court of parliament , for the good and safety of the kingdom in time of imminent danger , i had been liable to great punishment by the law , for dis-attendance and deserting my station therein , till lawfully or by force dismissed there-from : and this , whatever occasions others might have , by a voluntary or forc'd departure from attendance upon that trust . the actions therefore done by me in this capacity , and according to the law , priviledges , customs and power of parliament , and that , such a one as was thus extraordinarily constituted , neither are nor can be brought within the statute of . ed. . cap. . nor are to be questioned , tried , much less judged and sentenc'd in any inferior court. nay , so far is it from this , that by a declaration and resolution of parliament , aug. . , it is adjudged to be committing treason in the highest degree , to bring both or either houses of parliament under that or such like imputations . nor , till of late , have i ever heard but that those who took the judgment of parliament for their rule and guide , ( however tortuous or erroneous it might afterwards be accounted in succeeding times ) and they that acted by and under the countenance of their declared judgments , orders or ordinances , ( ever acknowledged binding during the sitting of the parliament ) were safe and indempnified from all punishment . and for government-sake it self , it is requisit it should be so ; because none are judges of the power and priviledges of parliament , but themselves . for admit once , that their judgment may be called in question , and disputed by private persons , or by inferiour courts , ( whose votes are included in theirs ) the fundamentals of government are plucked up by the roots . par in pares non habet imperium , multó minus in eos qui majus imperium habent ; an equal has no command over his equal , much less over those that have a greater command or authority . his late majesty , in his answer to the nineteen propositions , does very briefly and exactly state the nature and kind of government , that is exercised in this kingdom , saying , the laws in this kingdom are made by a king , a house of peers , and a house of commons , chosen by the people , all having free votes , and particular priviledges . these three estates , making one incorporate body , are they , in whom the soveraignty and supream power is placed , as to the making and repealing of laws . and the government , according to these laws , is trusted to the king , who in the interval of parliaments , is sole in the exercise of government , which ( the parliament sitting ) he is to exercise in conjunction with the two houses . and his said majesty asserting three sorts of government , absolute monarchy , aristocracy , and democracy , does most rightly distinguish the monarchy of england from all those three , and commends the constitution of this kingdom , as it is a mixture of all three , having the conveniencies of them all , without the inconveniencies of any one , as long as the ballance hangs even between the three estates , that they run joyntly on in their proper channels , and that the overflowing of either on either side , raise no deluge nor inundation . by the passing of the foresaid act , for the continuance of the forementioned parliament , the intervals of parliament were no longer , as before , at the will and pleasure of the king , but the power to continue the said parliament , without adjournment , prorogation , or dissolution , resided in the two houses with the king , joyntly , and in none of them severally ; so that in effect , the government of the kingdom , during the continuance of that parliament , was in conjunction of the three estates , and in their common consents and agreements among themselves , given in parliament , the assembling and meeting whereof was appointed and fixed to a place certain , by law. by reason hereof , it is not the attendance of any of the members in parliament ( for discharge of the trust reposed in them , confirm'd and enlarged by the said act ) that is faulty or censurable by the law , but those that unwarrantably depart and desert that their trust and station , are to be blamed ; . hen. . . the king in conjunction with the parliament , is maxime rex , and is supported in the throne and exercise of his regal power , by the joynt concurrence of both houses . and because ( as his late majesty well observed ) the happiness and good of the constitution of this government , lies in keeping the ballance even between the three estates , containing themselves within the bounds of their proper channels , therefore in attempts of either to overflow those bounds , ( they being co-ordinate ) the office of a parliament is by the very fundamental constitution of the government , to keep this ballance well poised . and to that end ( as was before mentioned ) his majesties own words are in his said answer to the nineteen propositions ; that there was legally placed in both houses , a power more than sufficient to prevent and restrain the power of tyranny . if so , then are they the legal judges , when there is danger of tyranny ; and have legal power to require their judgment and resolves to be obeyed , not only when arms are actually raised against them , but when they discern and accordingly declare a preparation towards it : else , they may find it too late to prevent the power of tyranny . there is no greater attempt of tyranny , than to arm against the parliament ; and there is no visible way for the restraining such tyranny , but by raising arms in their own and the kingdoms defence . less than this is not sufficient , and therefore far from more than sufficient , for the punishment of delinquents and restraint of tyranny . unto the king in conjunction with his two houses , according as is provided by the law , in this capacity of his as maxime rex , was the duty of allegiance to be yeelded by his subjects , during the indissolved state of that parliament . for they were the king 's great council , and supream court , exercising the known power and priviledges , that time out of mind have appertained to them , and been put forth by them , as the exigents of the kingdom have required , when differences have happened about the very title of the crown , in declaring the duty of the subject , by yeelding their allegiance to kings de facto , when kings de jure have been kept out of possession . this our chronicles , and the histories of former times , do plentifully inform . the causes that did happen , to move his late majesty to depart from his parliament , and continue for many years , not only at a distance and in a disjunction from them , but at last , in a declared posture of enmity and war against them , are so well known and fully stated in print ( not to say , written in characters of blood ) on both parts , that i shall only mention it , and refer to it . this matter was not done in a corner . the appeals were solemn , and the decision by the sword , was given by that god , who being the judge of the whole world , does right , and cannot do otherwise . by occasion of these unhappy differences , thus happening most great and unusual changes and revolutions , like an irresistible torrent , did break in upon us , not only to the disjoynting that parliamentary assembly among themselves , ( the head from the members , the co-ordinates from each other , and the houses within themselves ) but to the creating such formed divisions among the people , and to the producing such a general state of confusion and disorder , that hardly any were able to know their duty , and with certainly to discern who were to command and who to obey . all things seemed to be reduced , and in a manner resolved into their first elements and principles . nevertheless , as dark as such a state might be , the law of england leaves not the subjects thereof ( as i humbly conceive ) without some glimpses of direction what to do , in the cleaving to , and pursuing of which , i hope i shall not be accounted nor judged an offender ; or if i am , i shall have the comfort and peace of my actions to support me in and under my greatest sufferings . the resolutions of all the judges in calvin's case , entituled , post-nati , in the th book of cook 's reports , and the learned arguments thereupon , afforded me instruction even in this matter . it may be 't is truly thence affirmed , that allegiance is due only to the king , and how due , is also shewed . the king is acknowledged to have two capacities in him ; one a natural , as he is descended of the blood royal of the realm ; and the body natural he hath in this capacity , is of the creation of almighty god and mortal : the other is a politick capacity , in respect of which he is a body politick or mystical , framed by the policy of man , which is immortal and invisible . to the king , in both these capacities conjoyn'd , allegiance is due ; that is to say , to the natural person of the king , accompanied with his politick capacity , or the politick appropriated to the natural . the politick capacity of the king hath properly no body nor soul : for it is framed by the policy of man. in all indictments of treason , when any one does intend the death and destruction of the king , it must needs be understood of his natural body , the other being immortal . the indictment therefore concludes contra legiantiae suae debitum , against the duty of his allegiance , so that allegiance is due to the natural body . admitting then that thus by law , allegiance is due to the king ( as before recited ) yet it is alwayes to be presumed , that it is to the king in conjunction with the parliament , the law , and the kingdom , and not in disjunction from , or opposition to them ; and that , while a parliament is in being and cannot be dissolved , but by the consent of the three estates . this is therefore that , which makes the matter in question , a new case , that never before happened in the kingdom , nor was possible to happen , unless there had been a parliament constituted , as this was , unsubjected to adjournment , prorogation or dissolution , by the king's will. where such a power is granted , and the co-ordinates thereupon disagree and fall out , such effects and consequents as these that have happened , will but too probably follow . and , if either the law of nature , or england , inform not in such case , it will be impossible for the subjects to know their duty , when that power and command which ought to flow from three in conjunction , comes to be exercised by all or either of them , singly and apart , or by two of them against one . when new and never-heard-of changes do fall out in the kingdom , it is not like that the known and written laws of the land should be the exact rule , but the grounds and rules of justice , contained and declared in the law of nature , are and ought to be a sanctuary in such cases , even by the very common law of england : for , thence originally spring the unerring rules , that are set by the divine and eternal law , for rule and subjection in all states and kingdoms . in contemplation hereof , as the resolve of all the judges , it was agreed , . that allegiance is due to soveraignty by the law of nature , to wit , that law which god at the creation of man , infused into his heart , for his preservation and direction , the law eternal . yet , is it not this law , as it is in the heart of every individual man , that is binding over many , or legislative , but as it is the act of a community , or an associated people , by the right dictates and perswasions of the work of this law in their hearts . this appears in the case of the israelites , judg. , & chapters , cited in the th part of cook 's institutes , where mention is made of a parliament without a king , that made war , and that with their brethren . they met as one man to do it , in vindication of that justice unto which they were obliged even by the law of nature . this is that which chancellor fortescue calls political power , here in england ; by which , as by the ordinance of man , in pursuance of the ordinance of god , the regal office constituted , or the king 's politick capacity , and becomes appropriated to his natural person . thus politick power is the immediate efflux and off-spring of the law of nature , and may be called a part of it . to this , hooker in his ecclesiastical polity agrees , and selden on that subject . the law of nature thus considered , is part of the law of england , as is evident by all the best received law-books , bracton , fleta , lambard upon the saxon laws , and fortescue in the praise of the laws of england . this is the law that is before any judicial or municipal law , as the root and fountain whence these and all government under god and his law do flow . this politick power , as it is exercised in conjunction with , and conformity to the eternal law , partakes of its moral and immutable nature , and cannot be changed by act of parliament . of this law it is that magna charta and the charter of forest , with other statutes , rehearsed in the petition of right , are for the most part declaratory . for they are not introductive of any new law , but confirmations of what was good in all laws of england , before . this agrees with that maxime , salus populi suprema lex ; that being made due and binding by this law , which in the judgment of the community , declaring their mind by their own free chosen delegates and trustees , in harmony with the eternal law , appears profitable and necessary for the preservation and good of the whole society . this is the law , which is put forth by the common consent of the whole realm , in their representative ; and ( according to the fundamental constitutions of this kingdom ) is that , with which the kings of this land , by the joynt co-operation of the three estates , do make and repeal laws . but through the disorders and divisions of the times , these two powers , the regal and political , ( which , according to the law of england , make up but one and the same supream authority ) fell assunder , and found themselves in disjunction from , and opposition to one another . i do not say , the question is now , which of these is most rightly , ( according to the principles of the law of nature and the law of england ) to be adhered unto and obeyed , but unto whether power adherence is a crime , in such an exigent of state ? which , since it is such a new and extraordinary case , evidently above the track of the ordinary rules , contained in the positive and municipal laws of england , there can be no colour to bring it within the statute of . ed. . cap. . forasmuch as all statutes presuppose these two powers , regal and political , in conjunction , perfect unity and subserviency , which this case does not , cannot admit . so exceeding new and extraordinary a case is it , that it may be doubted whether , and questioned how far , any other parliament , but that parliament it self that was privy to all its own actings and intentions , can be an indifferent and competent judge . but however , the point is of so abstruse and high consideration , as no inferiour court can , or ought to judge of it , as by law-books is most undeniable ; to wit , bracton and others . this then being the true state of the case , and the spring of that contest that ensued , and received its decision by the late war ; the next consideration is , how far i have had my share and part therein , that by the laws is not warrantable , or by what appears in way of proof , to the jury . for the first , i shall crave leave to give you this account of my self , who have best known my own mind and intentions throughout , and would not now , to save my life , renounce the principles of that righteous cause , which my conscience tells me , was my duty to be faithful unto . i do therefore humbly affirm , that in the afore-mentioned great changes and revolutions , from first to last , i was never a first mover , but alwayes a follower , chusing rather to adhere to things than persons ; and ( where authority was dark or dubious ) to do things justifiable by the light and law of nature , as that law is acknowledged part of the law of the land ; things , that are in se bona , and such , as according to the grounds and principles of the common law , as well as the statutes of this land , would warrant and indempnifie me , in doing them . for i have observed by precedents of former times , when there have arisen disputes about titles to the crown , between kings de facto and kings de jure , the people of this realm wanted not directions for their safety , and how to behave themselves within the duty and limits of allegiance to the king and kingdom , in such difficult and dangerous seasons . my lord cook is very clear in this point , in his chap. of treason , fol. . and if it were otherwise , it were the hardest case that could be , for the people of england : for then they would be certainly exposed to punishment , from those that are in possession of the supream power , as traitors , if they do any thing against them , or do not obey them ; and they would be punishable as traitors , by him that hath right , and is king de jure , in case they do obey the kings de facto , and so all the people of england are necessarily involved in treasons , either against the powers de facto , or de jure , and may by the same reason be questioned for it , as well as the prisoner , if the act of indempnity and the king's pardon did not free them from it . the security then and safety of all the people of england , is by this means , made to depend upon a pardon , ( which might have been granted or denied ) and not upon the sure foundations of common law ; an opinion sure , which ( duly weighed and considered ) is very strange , to say no more . for i would gladly know that person in england of estate and fortune , and of age , that hath not counselled , aided or abetted , either by his person or estate , and submitted to the laws and government of the powers that then were ; and if so , then by your judgments upon me , you condemn ( in effigies , and by necessary consequence ) the whole kingdom . and if that be the law , and be now known to be so , it is worth consideration , whether , if it had been generally known and understood before , it might not have hindred his majesties restoration . besides , although , until this judgement be passed upon me , the people have apprehended themselves , as free from question , and out of danger , by reason of the act of indempnity and general pardon ; yet when it shall appear to them , that such their safety is not grounded on the common law , nor upon the law of nature , but that against both these in their actions , they are found faulty , and tainted with a moral guilt , and that as principals ; also , ( since in treason there are no accessories ) what terrifying reflexions must this needs stir up in the mind of every man , that will be apt to believe his turn will come next , at least once in two years , as hath befallen me in my p●rson , who ( however i have been misjudged and misunderstood ) can truly affirm , that in the whole series of my actions , that which i have had in my eye , hath been to preserve the ancient , well-constituted government of england on its own basis and primitive righteous foundations , most learnedly stated by fortescue in his book , made in praise of the english laws . and i did account it the most likely means for the effecting of this , to preserve it , at least in its root , whatever changes and alterations it might be exposed unto in its branches , through the blustrous and stormy times that have passed over us . this is no new doctrine , in a kingdom acquainted with political power , as fortescue shews ours is , describing it to be in effect , the common assent of the realm , the will of the people or whole body of the kingdom , represented in parliament . nay , though this representation ( as hath fallen out ) be restrained for a season , to the commons house , in their single actings , into which ( as we have seen ) when by the inordinate fire of the times , two of the three estates have for a season been melted down , they did but retire into their root , and were not hereby in their right , destroyed , but rather preserved , though as to their exercise , laid for a while asleep , till the season came of their revival and restoration . and whatever were the intents and designs of others , ( who are to give an account of their own actions ) it is sufficient for me , that at a time critical and decisive , ( though to my own hazard and ill usage ) i did declare my refusal of the oath of abjuration , which was intended to be taken by all the members of parliament , in reference to kingly government , and the line of his now majesty in particular . this i not only positively refused to take , but was an occasion of the second thoughts which the parliament reassumed thereof , till in a manner , they came wholly at last to decline it ; a proof undeniable of the remoteness of any intentions or designs of mine , as to the endeavouring any alteration or change in the government , and was that which gave such jealousie to many in the house , that they were willing to take the first occasion to shew their dislike of me , and to discharge me from sitting among them . but to return to what i have before affirmed , as to my being no leading or first actor in any change , it is very apparent by my deportment at the time when that great violation of priviledges happened to the parliament , so as by force of arms several members thereof were debarred coming into the house and keeping their seats there . this made me forbear to come to the parliament for the space of ten weeks , ( to wit , from the third of decemb. , till towards the middle of february following ) or to meddle in any publick transactions . and during that time , the matter most obvious to exception , in way of alteration of the government , did happen . i can therefore truly say , that as i had neither consent nor vote , at first , in the resolutions of the houses , concerning the non-addresses to his late majesty , so neither had i , in the least , any consent in , or approbation to , his death . but on the contrary , when required by the parliament , to take an oath , to give my approbation ex post facto to what was done , i utterly refused , and would not accept of sitting in the council of state upon those terms , but occasioned a new oath to be drawn , wherein that was omitted . hereupon , many of the council of state sate , that would not take the other . in like manner , the resolutions and votes for changing the government into a commonwealth or free-state were passed , some weeks before my return to parliament . yet afterwards ( so far as i judged the same consonant to the principles and grounds , declared in the laws of england , for upholding that political power , which hath given the rise and introduction in this nation , to monarchy it self , by the account of antient writers ) i conceived it my duty , as the state of things did then appear to me , ( notwithstanding the said alteration made ) to keep my station in parliament , and to perform my allegiance therein , to king and kingdom , under the powers then regnant , ( upon my principles before declared ) yeelding obedience to their authority and commands . and having received trust , in reference to the safety and preservation of the kingdom , in those times of imminent danger , ( both within and without ) i did conscientiously hold my self obliged , to be true and faithful therein . this i did upon a publick account , not daring to quit my station in parliament , by vertue of my first writ . nor was it for any private or gainful ends , to profit my self or enrich my relations . this may appear as well by the great debt i have contracted , as by the destitute condition my many children are in , as to any provision made for them . and i do publickly challenge all persons whatsoever , that can give information of any bribes or covert wayes , used by me , during the whole time of my publick acting . therefore i hope it will be evident to the consciences of the jury , that what i have done , hath been upon principles of integrity , honour , justice , reason and conscience , and not as is suggested in the indictment , by instigation of the devil , or want of the fear of god. a second great change that happened upon the constitution of the parliament , and in them , of the very kingdom it self and the laws thereof ( to the plucking up the liberties of it by the very roots , and the introducing of an arbitrary regal power , under the name of protector , by force , and the law of the sword ) was the usurpation of cromwel , which i opposed from the beginning to the end , to that degree of suffering , and with that constancy , that well near had cost me not only the loss of my estate , but of my very life , if he might have had his will , which a higher than he hindred . yet i did remain a prisoner , under great hardship , four months , in an island , by his orders . hereby , that which i have asserted , is most undeniably evident , as to the true grounds and ends of my actions all along , that were against usurpation on the one hand , or such extraordinary actings on the other , as i doubted the laws might not warrant or indempnifie , unless i were inforced thereunto , by an over-ruling and inevitable necessity . the third considerable change , was the total disappointing and removing of the said usurpation , and the returning again of the members of parliament to the exercise of their primitive and original trust , for the good and safety of the kingdom , so far as the state of the times would then permit them , being so much as they were , under the power of an army , that for so long a time had influenced the government . towards the recovery therefore of things again into their own channel , and upon the legal root of the peoples liberties , to wit , their common consent in parliament , given by their own deputies and trustees , i held it my duty to be again acting in publick affairs , in the capacity of a member of the said parliament , then re-entred upon the actual exercise of their former power , or at least strugling for it . in this season i had the opportunity of declaring my true intentions , as to the government , upon occasion of refusing the oath of abjuration before mentioned . and whereas i am charged with keeping out his majesty that now is , from exercising his regal power or royal authority in this his kingdom ; through the ill-will born me by that part of the parliament then sitting , i was discharg'd from being a member thereof , about jan. . , and by many of them was charged , or at least strongly suspected to be a royalist : yea , i was not only discharged from my attendance in parliament , but confined as a prisoner at mine own house , some time before there was any visible power in the nation that thought it seasonable to own the king's interest . and i hope my sitting still , will not be imputed as a failer of duty , in the condition of a prisoner , and those circumstances i then was in . this i can say , that from the time i saw his majesties declarations from breda , declaring his intentions and resolutions as to his return to take upon him the actual exercise of his regal office in england , and to indempnifie all those that had been actors in the late differences and wars , ( as in the said declaration doth appear ) i resolved , not to avoid any publick question , ( if called thereto ) as relying on mine own innocency and his majesties declared favour , as beforesaid . and for the future i determined to demean my self with that inoffensiveness and agreeableness to my duty , as to give no just matter of new provocation to his majesty in his government . all this on my part , hath been punctually observed , whatever my sufferings have been . nor am i willing , in the least , to harbour any discouraging thoughts in my mind , as to his majesties generosity and favour towards me , who have been faithfull to the trust i was engaged in , without any malicious intentions against his majesty , his crown or dignity , as before hath been shewed . and i am desirous for the future , to walk peaceably and blamelesly . whatever therefore my personal sufferings have been , since his majesties restoration , i rather impute them to the false reports and calumnies of mine enemies and misjudgers of my actions , than reckon them as any thing that hath proceeded from his majesties proper inclination , whose favour and clemency i have had just reason with all humility to acknowledge . first , with regard to his majesties speech made the th of july , , in the house of peers , wherein his majesty expresly declared it to be no intention of his , that a person under my circumstances should be excepted out of the act of indempnity , either for life or estate . and , secondly , however it was the parliaments pleasure ( my self unheard , though then in the tower , and ready to have been brought before them ) to except me out of the common indempnity , and subject me to question for my actions , yet they themselves , of their own accord ( admitting the possibility that in such questioning of me , i might be attainted ) made it their humble desire to his majesty , that in such case , execution , as to my life , might be remitted . unto this his majesty readily gave his grant and assent . and i do firmly believe , if the houses had pleased to give me the opportunity and leave of being heard , they would never have denied me the indempnity granted to the rest of the nation . that which remains of further charge yet to me , is the business of a regiment , an imployment , which i can in truth affirm , mine own inclinations , nature and breeding little fitted me for , and which was intended onely as honorary and titular , with relation to volunteers , who , by their application to the council of state , in a time of great commotions , did propound their own officers , and ( without any seeking of mine , or my considering any farther of it , than as the use of my name ) did ( among others ) nominate me for a colonel , which the council of state approved , granting commissions to my self and all other officers relating thereunto . and the parliament confirmed my said commission , upon report thereof made to them . this will appear by several witnesses i have to produce in this matter , that will be able to affirm , how little i took upon me , or at all , to give any orders , or make use of such my commission , any otherwise than in name only . 't is true indeed , that at a certain time , when i was summoned to appear at the committee of the militia in southwark , whereof i was a member ; that which was called my own company of foot ( from the respect which they and their officers pretended to me ) were desirous to be in a posture , fit for me to see them , and as i passed by , i took the opportunity at their desire to shew my self to them , and only ( as taking notice of their respect ) in some few words , expressing the reason i had to receive it in good part , i told them i would no longer detain them from their other occasions . after i was gone from them , i appointed my capt. lieutenant to give them from me something to drink , as might be fitting on such an occasion , which , to my best remembrance was five pounds , and he laid it out of his own money . more than this ( as i remember ) was not done by me , so much as to the seeing any more , the companies of that regiment gathered together , or giving orders to them , which i publickly and avowedly declined , perswading the officers to lay down their charges , in mine own example , so soon as i discern'd the intentions of the sitting down of the committee of safety , and the exorbitant power committed to them to exercise , and the way of proceedings by the army , in interesting themselves in the civil government of the nation , which i utterly disliked . and although i forbore not to keep my station , in reference to the council of state while they sate , or as a commissioner of the admiralty , during the time by them appointed to act by parliamentary authority ; and so , had occasion to be daily conversant with the members of the committee of safety , ( whereof my self , with others that would not accept , were named ) yet i perfectly kept my self dis-interested from all those actings of the army , as to any consent or approbation of mine , ( however in many things by way of discourse , i did not decline converse with them ) holding it my duty , to penetrate as far as i could into their true intentions and actions , but resolving within my self to hold true to my parliamentary trust , in all things wherein the parliament appeared to me to act for the safety and good of the kingdom , however i was mis-interpreted and judged by them , as one that rather favoured some of the army and their power . upon the whole matter , there is not any precedent , that ever both or either of the houses of parliament did commit treason . for though priviledge of parliament does not so hold in treason , but that particular members may be punished for it , yet it is unprecedented , that both or either houses of parliament , as a collective body , ever did or could commit treason . all the acts done in parliaments , have been reversed indeed , and repealed , as what was done . ric. . was repealed , . ric. ; and what was done . ric. . was repealed hen. . ; as appears by the printed statutes . yet i do not find , that both or either house of parliament were declared traitors for what they did in those parliaments ; or that any which acted under them , suffered for the same in any inferiour courts . and surely , the reason is obvious : for they had a co-ordinacy in the supream or legislative power , for the making , altering and repealing laws . and if so , par in parem non habet imperium ; and by authorities out of bracton , fleta , and others , it may appear what superiours the king himself hath , ( who yet hath no peer in his kingdom , nisi curium baronum ) god , law , and parliament . and if either or both houses cannot commit treason . then those that act by their authority , cannot : for , plus peccat author quam actor , the author offends more than the actor . if those that command , do not , not can commit treason , how can those that act by their authority , be guilty of it ? further , i must crave leave to assert , by reason of what i see opened upon the evidence ; that what is done in parliament , or by their authority , ought not to be questioned in any other court. for every offence committed in any court , must be punished in the same , or in some higher , and not any inferiour court. now , the court of parliament hath no superiour court , as is said in cook 's jurisdiction of courts . and the reason there given , that judges ought not to give any opinion in a matter of parliament , is , because it is not to be decided by the common laws , but secundum legem & consuetudinem parliamenti . this , the judges in divers parliaments have confessed . and that reason is not to be waved , which the lord cook gives : that a man can make no defence ; for what is said and acted there , is done in council , and none ought to reveal the secrets of the house : every member hath a judicial voice , and can be no witness . the main substance of these papers was read and enlarged upon by the prisoner , this day of his tryal . he was often interrupted , but his memory was still relieved by his papers , so as after whatever diversions caused by the court or counsel , he could recover himself again , and proceed . yet the edge and force of his plea , as to the influencing of the jurors consciences , may appear to have been much abated by such interruptions , as doubtless was intended , and will more at large appear , when it shall please god to afford us a full narrative of the proceedings of the king's judges , counsel and jurors about him , and of all that he occasionally said , upon the digressions by them caused . wednesday june . being the sentence-day . after some little skirmishings with the prisoner , to dash all the humane weapons of law and reason out of his hands , by force or noise , for half an hour or more they finally refused to hear his following plea and reasons for an arrest of judgment , or forbearing their sudden and rash proceeding to sentence . they had promised him before verdict , they would hear any thing in that kind he had to offer , as they had also before his pleading not guilty , promised him counsel , which never was granted , neither . they drew him on , step by step , first , to plead , on his arraignment-day , then to admit the juries verdict on his tryal-day ( so called , for he never owned it for a legal tryal to his last breath ) and after that , out comes the judgement or sentence of death against him , ( pronounced by the lord chief justice forster ) and that , of the worst complexion and most infamous famous circumstances , to wit , that he should be hang'd , drawn and quartered , at tyburn , the common execution-place for theeves and robbers . but in the order for his execution , ( for reasons best known to them that made it ) the manner of his death was altered , into a beheading only , on tower-hill ; to which place they carried him on a sled , drawn with horses , a circumstance very singular , and never used for those that die there , and which he was kept ignorant of till the very time ; one of the sheriffs men having that morning , a little before , told him , there was to be no sled , but that he was to walk on foot . some farther remarques of this last dayes proceedings of the court with him , besides what is already mentioned , ( received from one that was present , and did hear and see all , being what he could best remember ) take as followeth . after the customary formalities of the court , the clerk demanded of sir henry vane , what he had to say , why sentence of death should not be passed upon him ? sir henry vane first alledged , that he had not yet heard the indictment read in latine . the debate upon this , took up some time . at length some of the king's counsel desired that the prisoner might be satisfied in that point . sir henry desired that counsel then might also be assigned him , to make exceptions thereto , if they found cause , otherwise he valued not the hearing of it read in latine : this was over-ruled by the court ; he soon therefore desisted from any further urging it . the next thing sir henry offered in his own defence , was the bill of exceptions , which he brought with him ready drawn , and offered it to the judges , desiring them according to the statute of westminst . . . made . ed. . to sign it . this he urged so home , that the statute was consulted and read in open court , running in favour of the prisoner , to this effect , that if any man find himself aggrieved by the proceedings against him before any justices , let him write his exception , and desire the justices to set their seals to it . this act was made ( sayes cook ) that the party wronged might have a foundation for a legal process against the justices , by a writ of error , having his exception entred upon record in the court where the injury is done , which through the justices over-ruling it , they could not before procure ; so the party grieved was without remedy , for whose relief this statute was made : the justices refusing to set to their seals , the party grieved may have a writ grounded on this statute , commanding them to set their seals to his exception . this exception extends not only to all pleas , dilatory and peremptory &c. but to all challenges of any jurors , and any material evidence , given to any jury , which by the court is over-ruled : as in this prisoners case , the testimony about falsifying of his hand to writings , &c. was , by what was offered to the jury by justice windham . further , sayes cook on this statute , if the justice ( or justices ) die , their executors or administrators may be proceeded against , for the injury done . and if the judge ( or judges ) deny to seal the exception , the party wronged , may in the writ of error take issue thereupon , if he can prove by witnesses , the judge or judges denied to seal it . notwithstanding all this , the judges over-ruled this plea also , by such interpretation as themselves put upon that statute , to wit , that it was not allowable in criminal cases for life . this makes the law less careful for the preservation of a man's life , than any particulars of his estate , in controversies about which , this statute is affirmed by them to hold ; whereas life is the greater , and innocent blood when spilt is irreversible , as to the matter , it cannot be gathered up again ; the estate is the lesser , and if an erroneous judgment pass about it , 't is reversible upon traverse , writ of error , or otherwise . the reason they alledged for their pretended opinion , was this ; that if it be held in criminal cases for life , every felon in newgate might plead the same , and so there would be no goal-delivery . sir henry answered , his case was not the case of common felons , alledging the grant of his majesty to the petition of both houses for his life , in case he should be attainted ; there is no need therefore sure ( said he ) of fearing the consequence of spinning out the time a little with a person in his circumstances . besides ( he said ) he had been a prisoner two years , and never call'd on to give any account of himself and his actions , ( so is it not with felons ) which with other considerations , may sufficiently evince , that there is no need of such hasting his death . he told them withal , that he desired not this , for his own sake only , but for theirs , and for posterity , that they might on a more leisurely and unprejudiced hearing of what may be said on all hands , prevent the bringing of innocent blood upon themselves and the land. but being in this also over-ruled by the court , ( say what he could ) he only desired , he might understand whether they would all give it as their common judgment they would stand to , that what he desired was not his due by the law ? by this means they were all put upon it , one by one , to declare themselves in that point , unanimously denying him the benefit of that act. to the by-standers their chief reason seemed to be , that it had not been practised this hundred or two of years . the third thing sir henry desired , was , that the petition of both houses , with his majesties answer thereunto , might be read in the court , which , after some dispute , was concluded to be a thing they were not bound to take notice of , not being an act of parliament . yet what is any act of parliament , but a bill presented with the petition of both houses to his majesty , with his royal assent thereto , upon publick record ? at length they condescended to reade it , and that was all . the fourth and last thing sir henry offered to the consideration of of the bench , was this ; that in regard there were questions touching matter of law , in his case , which must receive their determination in parliament , he desired he might have counsel assigned him , to argue them before their lordships . some of these points he instanced in , to wit , . whether a parliament were accountable to any inferiour court ? . whether the king , being out of possession , and the power regent in others — here they stopt him , not suffering him to proceed , nor admitting that the king was ever out of possession . to which sir henry replied , the words of his indictment ran thus , that he endeavoured to keep out his majesty ; and how could he keep him out of the realm , if he were not out ? but when he saw they would over-rule him in all , and were bent upon his condemnation , he put up his papers , appealing to the righteous judgment of god , who ( he told them ) must judge them as well as him , often expressing his satisfaction to die upon this testimony ; which keeling , one of the king's counsel , insultingly answered , so you may , sir , in good time , by the grace of god. the same person had often before shewed a very snappish property towards the prisoner ; and sir henry sometimes answered him according to his folly : for when he would have had the book out of the prisoner's hand , wherein was the statute of westminster d. . sir henry told him , he had a very officious memory , and when he was of counsel for him , he would find him books . ( whereby was verified what was said to be spoken by him , at first , in answer to one of his brethren , on the arraignment day , though we know not what to say to him , we know what to do with him ) after sentence given , chief justice forster endeavoured to take off the king from any obligation by that grant to the petition of both houses , saying , that god , though full of mercy , yet intended his mercy only to the penitent . reasons for an arrest of judgment : writ by the prisoner , but refused to be heard by the court. i. i have been denied so much as to hear the indictment read in latine , as it is the original record of the court ; yea , so much as a copy of it in english hath been denied me , during the whole time of my tryal , by the fight whereof i might be able to assign the defects of law that may be in it . counsel also hath been denied , not only before i pleaded , but after ; and all points by me offered in law , to the judges of the court , have been over-ruled , without admitting me counsel to argue the same , and better inform the judgment of the court. i have demanded , that i might put in a bill of exceptions , upon the statute of westminst . d. cap. . this likewise is denied me , over-ruled and judged , as out of that statute . neither will counsel be allowed me in this , to shew cause , why it ought to be admitted as of right . and as no counsel was allowed , so neither were the judges counsel to me , as they said themselves , they would , and ought to be , but rather suffered me to wrong and prejudice my self , some of them saying , let him go on , the worst will be his own at last . and they neither checked nor restrained the king's counsel , in their high and irritating expressions to the jury , to find me guilty , one of whom were seen to speak privately with the foreman of the jury , immediately before the jurors went from the bar , after he had spoken openly , that the prisoner was to be made a publick sacrifice , in reference to the actions done against his majesty that now is . all this is very far from that indifferency in tryal , and from that equality which the law requires , and they are bound by their oath to afford me ; besides the undue proceedings in the business of the petty jury . a list of forty eight persons was presented to me , who being to me unknown , and no time allowed me to gain any knowledge of them , though i was permitted to challenge and refuse three juries , without shewing cause , yet could not that refusal be upon such rational grounds as the law supposes , which doubtless intends substantial relief to the prisoner , in allowing him the liberty of such refusal : whereas , through my ignorance of the persons , i might refuse the best , and chuse the worst , as to my safety . and then , whereas the law further allows me the refusal of any other beyond the thirty five , on just and exceptionable cause shewen ; what just exception was i capable to alledge in a sudden hurry , against persons to me altogether unknown , unless it would be taken for a just one , that they were unknown to me ? all these things , being so contrary to the right which the judges stand obliged to do to every one , as they are for that purpose entrusted by god and the king , is just cause for an arrest of judgment ; and a good reason why they should yet at length allow me a copy of the indictment , and assign counsel to argue for the prisoner , against the defects in law that may be found therein . without this , law is denied me , which is my birthright and inheritance ; the best birthright the subject hath , sayes cook on mag. charta , for thereby ( sayes he ) his goods , lands , wife , children , his body , life , honour and estimation are protected from injury . the life , birthright or inheritance we have from our parents , may soon be gone , if this fence thereof be broken down . how great a wrong then it is for the court to withhold it from me , is manifest . are they not therefore in effect , chargeable with my blood , by such unequal proceedings as i have had in my tryal ? ii. my second reason for an arrest of judgment , is drawn from the issue that is joyned in my case , which seems to depend chiefly upon matter of law , and that in such tender and high points , as are only determinable in the high court of parliament . for it is become the question , whether i am guilty , or not guilty , according as these propositions following , are truly or erroneously resolved ? . whether the parliament , that began novemb. . , were dissolved by the king's death ? and whether this court may judge things done in parliament ? . whether the powers regnant , and de facto , that successively were in being , from jan. . , to decemb. , , were such powers de facto , as are the king , or seigneur le roy , within the purview of the stat. . ed. . having the exercise of regal power in all the particulars of it , though not the name ? . whether during that time fore-mentioned , his majesty that now is , were properly king de facto ? or whether he were not out of possession , and without all exercise of his regal authority within the realm ? . whether the case now in question , be a treason literally within the words of the statute , . ed. . or at most , any other , than an interpretative and new treason , not declared before the very time of my tryal ; and that only by the judgment of the court , or opinion of my judges , eleven years after some of the things charged on me , are alledged to have been committed ? as to the first of these ; the act for continuance of the long parliament , is express ; that all and every thing or things whatsoever , done or to be done , for the adjournment , proroguing or dissolving of that parliament , contrary to that act , shall be utterly void and of none effect . i then thus argue ; the judges do upon occasion of this tryal , resolve , that the king's death dissolv'd that parliament . no act of parliament hath yet declared it to be so ; and the judges ought to have some law for their guide , as cook well sayes . to be sure , if in process of time , the parliament shall expresly declare , that not the king's death , but the act for the dissolution of that parliament , did dissolve it ; in such case , these judges resolution by vertue of such act , is absolutely void . but innocent blood in the mean time may be shed , and an estate wrongfully taken away . and in case what the judges assert herein , were law , 't is law not known or declared till many years after the fact committed . at this rate , who is secure of estate or life ? as to the second and third queries or propositions ; it does appear out of the third part of cook 's institutes , fol. . and the statute , . hen. . cap. . that actings for the king in fact , are not to be questioned by the king in right . if it be said , that there was no king in this case ; it may be replied , that they who had the power and exercise of the royal jurisdiction , as to peace and war , coynage of money , power of life and death , &c. which are the highest ensigns of regal authority , must needs be the powers regnant , though not under the name of king , and are within the statute , . edw. . cap. . as a queen also is adjudged , and any sovereign prince , though under the title only of lord , as was the case of ireland , before it was a kingdom . and if so , why not in more such persons as well as one , that de facto exercise the royal power and sovereign authority , under what name or title soever ? if upon this nicety , judgment be given against me , because the powers regnant wanted the name and formality of a king , i shall doubtless have very hard measure . for the reason and equity is the same , if the powers regnant had the thing , though not the title . and where there is the same reason , there is the same law , as is a known rule . now there is the same reason the subject should be equally indempnified , that acteth under any sovereign authority that hath not the name of a king , as if it had . if there had been many kings , as a heptarchy hath been in england heretofore , those would have been understood to be within the statute ; and the reason and equity of the statute is the same in all cases . for the law is made for the benefit and security of the subject , whom the law requires not to examine the right of soveraignty . nor is the danger less under one government than another . the statute is , for securing the subject from all dormant titles , that they may safely pay their allegiance when they receive protection , and that they may not be in danger of being destroyed by two powers at the same time . for that power which is supream and de facto , will be obeyed , and make it treason to do otherwise , be it right or wrong . and if the subject be at the same time in danger of committing treason against the power de jure , then is he in a miserable condition and state of unavoidable necessity , which is provided against by the laws of the land. otherwise , if he be loyal to the king de jure , he shall be hanged by the king de facto ; and if he be faithful to the king de facto , he shall die by the king de jure , when he recovers possession . against this it was , that the statute of . hen. . was provided , in the difference betwixt the two houses of york and lancaster . my case is either the same with that , and then i desire the benefit of that statute ; or else , it is new , and then i desire , as is provided , . ed. . that it be referred to the parliament . so that it is either within the equity of the statute , . hen. . or else it is a new case , and not to be judged by this court. if the judges in the resolves by them delivered , upon any of the particulars before-alledged , have not declared that law that ought to guide them , but their particular judgments or opinions , as undertaking to guide the law , and that in points of so grand concern as touch the subjects life , in case their judgments after should prove erroneous , the verdict given upon such errors , must needs be illegal and void . judgment therefore ought to be suspended till such time as the truth and certainty of the law may be fully argued and cleared , and that , in the proper court for the hearing and judging of this case . if this be not done , but i be forthwith proceeded against ( notwithstanding any thing however rationally or legally alledged to the contrary ) by such undue precipitation and giving sentence , i am ( contrary to magna charta , or law of the land ) run upon and destroyed , without due form and course of law. and i am like to be deprived of estate and life upon no law or certain rule , which was declared before the fact ; no , nor before the tryal . upon these considerations , i desire an arrest of judgment , and that counsel may be assigned me , and competent time allowed to make good my averrements . as an argument to press this , i desire leave of the court , that the petition of the two houses , and the king's assent to it , may be read in open court , attested by one that is present , who examined and compared it with the book of record in the lords house , by which it evidently appears , that as well the king as both houses of parliament , were agreed , that admitting i were attainted , yet execution , as to my life , should be remitted . and if so , there is no cause to precipitate the passing sentence ; especially , when also such weighty points in the law are yet to be argued and cleared , unless the judges will evidently charge themselves with my innocent blood. iii. my third reason for an arrest of judgment , is the manifest newness of this case , being such as never happened before in the kingdom : which withal , is of so vast a consequence to people of all sorts and conditions within this realm , as nothing more . and being so , ( as i doubt not with your lordships patience i shall make it appear ) it is the known law , witnessed by bracton and antient approved law-books ; that in such cases , the judges in the inferiour courts ought not to proceed , but bring it before the high court of parliament . to prove therefore the newness of this case , ( besides what i have already alledged in my defence , before the verdict ) give me leave to adde that , which yet further shews the newness and extraordinariness thereof . and i beseech your lordships to let me go on without interruption , in my endeavouring to make it out as clearly , as god shall enable me , and as briefly also , not to spend too much of your time . in general , i do affirm of this case ; that it is so comprehensive , as to take in the very interests of heaven and earth : first , of god the universal soveraign and king of kings ; secondly , that of earthly soveraigns , who are god's vicegerents ; as also the interests of all mankind , that stand in the relation of subjects to the one or both those sorts of soveraigns . this is general . more particularly ; within the bowels of this case is that cause of god , that hath stated it self in the late differnces and wars , that have happened and arisen within these three nations , and have been of more than twenty years continuance : which for the greater certainty and solemnity , hath been recorded in the form of a national covenant , in which the generality of the three nations have been either implicitly involved , or expresly concern'd , by the signing of their names . the principal things contained in that covenant , were the known and commonly received duties , which either as men or as christians , we owed and stood obliged to perform either to god , the highest and universal king in church and state , or to our natural lord and sovereign , the kings of this realm , in subordination to god and his laws . again , it contains as well the duties which we owe to every particular and individual person , in their several stations and callings , as to the king in general , and our representative body in parliament assembled . these duties we are thereby obliged to yeeld and perform , in consistency with , and in a just subordination and manifest agreeableness to , the laws of god , as is therein expressed : and this also , in no disagreement to the laws of the land , as they then were . by this solemn covenant and agreement of the three nations , giving up themselves in subjection to god and to his laws , in the first place , as the allegiance they owe to their highest soveraign , ( as the creator , redeemer , owner and ruler of all mankind ) they have so far interested the son of god in the the supream rule and government of these nations , that nothing therein ought to be brought into practice , contrary to his revealed will in the holy scriptures , and his known and most righteous laws . this duty which we owe to god , the universal king , nature and christianity do so clearly teach and assert , that it needs no more than to be named . for this subjection and allegiance to god and his laws , by a right so indisputable , all are accountable before the judgment-seat of christ . it is true indeed , men may de facto become open rebels to god and to his laws , and prove such as forfeit his protection , and engage him to proceed against them as his professed enemies . but ( with your lordships favour ) give me leave to say , that that which you have made a rule for your proceedings in my case , will indeed hold , and that very strongly , in this ; that is to say , in the sence wherein christ the son of god is king de jure , not only in general , over the whole world , but in particular , in relation to these three kingdoms . he ought not to be kept out of his throne , nor his visible government , ( that consists in the authority of his word and laws ) suppressed and trampled under foot , under any pretence whatsoever . and in the asserting and adhering unto the right of this highest soveraign , ( as stated in the covenant , before mentioned ) the lords and commons joyntly , before the year , and the commons alone afterwards , to the very times charged in the indictment , did manage the war and late differences within these kingdoms . and whatever defections did happen by apostates , hypocrites , and time-serving worldlings , there was a party amongst them , that continued firm , sincere and chast unto the last , and loved it better than their very lives ; of which number i am not ashamed to profess my self to be ; not so much admiring the form and words of the covenant , as the righteous and holy ends therein expressed , and the true sense and meaning thereof , which i have reason to know . nor will i deny , but that , as to the manner of the prosecution of the covenant to other ends than it self warrants , and with a rigid oppressive spirit , ( to bring all dissenting minds and tender consciences under one uniformity of church-discipline and government ) it was utterly against my judgment . for i alwayes esteemed it more agreeable to the word of god , that the ends and work declared in the covenant , should be promoted in a spirit of love and forbearance to differing judgments and consciences , that thereby we might be approving our selves in doing that to others , which we desire they would do to us ; and so , ( though upon different principles ) be found joynt and faithful advancers of the reformation contained in the covenant , both publick and personal . this happy union and conjunction of all interests in the respective duties of all relations , agreed and consented to by the common suffrage of the three nations ( as well in their publick parliamentary capacity , as private stations ) appeared to me a rule and measure approved of , and commanded by parliament , for my action and deportment , though it met with great opposition , in a tedious , sad and long war ; and this , under the name and pretext of royal authority . yet , as this case appeared to me in my conscience , under all its circumstances of times , of persons , and of revolutions inevitably happening , by the hand of god and the course of his wise providences , i held it safest and best to keep my station in parliament to the last , under the guidance and protection of their authority , and in pursuance of the ends before declared , in my just defence . this general and publick case of the kingdoms , is so well known by the declarations and actions that have passed on both sides , that i need but name it , since this matter was not done in a corner , but frequently contended for in the high places of the field , and written even with characters of blood. and out of the bowels of these publick differences and disputes , doth my particular case arise , for which i am called into question . but admitting it come to my lot to stand single , in the witness i am to give to this glorious cause , and to be left alone , ( as in a sort i am ) yet being upheld with the authority before asserted , and keeping my self in union and conjunction therewith , i am not afraid to bear my witness to it in this great presence , nor to seal it with my blood , if called thereunto . and i am so far satisfied in my conscience and understanding , that it neither is nor can be treason , either against the law of nature , or the law of the land , either malum per se , or malum prohibitum ; that on the contrary , it is the duty i owed to god the universal king , and to his majesty that now is , and to the church and people of god in these nations , and to the innocent blood of all that have been slain in this quarrel . nothing it seems will now serve , unless by the condemnation passed upon my person , they be rendred to posterity murderers and rebels , and that upon record in a court of justice in westminster-hall . and this would inevitably have followed , if i had voluntarily given up this cause , without asserting their and my innocency , by which i should have pulled that blood upon my own head , which now i am sure must lie at the door of others , and in particular , of those that knowingly and precipitately shall embrew their hands in my innocent blood , under whatever form or pretext of justice . my case is evidently new and unusual , that which never happened before ; wherein there is , not only much of god and of his glory , but all that is dear and of true value to all the good people in these three nations . and ( as i have said ) it cannot be treason against the law of nature , since the duties of the subjects in relation to their soveraigns and superiours , from highest to lowest , are owned and conscientiously practised and yeelded by those that are the assertors of this cause . nor can it be treason within the statute of . ed. ; since , besides what hath been said of no king in possession , and of being under powers regnant & kings de facto , as also of the fact in its own nature , and the evidence as to overt acts pretended , it is very plain it cannot possibly fall within the purview of that statute . for this case , thus circumstantiated , ( as before declared ) is no act of any private person , of his own head , as that statute intends ; nor in relation to the king there meant , that is presumed to be in the exercise of his royal authority in conjunction with the law and the two houses of parliament , if they be sitting , as the fundamental constitutions of the government do require . my lords , if i have been free and plain with you in this matter , i beg your pardon : for it concerns me to be so , and something more than ordinarily urgent , where both my estate and life are in such eminent peril ; nay , more than my life , the concerns of thousands of lives are in it , not only of those that are in their graves already , but of all posterity in time to come . had nothing been in it , but the care to preserve my own life , i needed not have stayed in england , but might have taken my opportunity to have withdrawn my self into forreign parts , to provide for my own safety . nor needed i to have been put upon pleading , as now i am , for an arrest of judgment , but might have watch'd upon advantages that were visible enough to me , in the managing of my tryal , if i had consulted only the preservation of my life or estate . no , my lords , i have otherwise learned christ , than to fear them that can but kill the body , and have no more that they can do . i have also taken notice , in the little reading that i have had of history , how glorious the very heathens have rendred their names to posterity , in the contempt they have shewed of death , ( when the laying down of their life has appeared to be their duty ) from the love which they have owed to their country . two remarkable examples of this , give me leave to mention to you upon this occasion . the one is , of socrates the divine philosopher , who was brought into question before a judgment-seat , as now i am , for maintaining , that there was but one onely true god , against the multiplicity of the superstitious heathen gods ; and he was so little in love with his own life upon this account , ( wherein he knew the right was on his side ) that he could not be perswaded by his friends , to make any defence , but would chuse rather to put it upon the conscience and determination of his judges , to decide that wherein he knew not how to make any choice of his own , as to what would be best for him , whether to live or to die ; he ingenuously professing , that for ought he knew , it might be much to his prejudice and loss , to endeavour longer continuance in this bodily life . the other example , is that of a chief governour , that ( to my best remembrance ) had the command of a city in greece , which was besieged by a potent enemy , and brought into unimaginable straits . hereupon the said governor makes his address to the oracle , to know the event of that danger . the answer was ; that the city should be safely preserved , if the chief governour were slain by the enemy . he , understanding this , immediately disguis'd himself and went into the enemies camp , amongst whom he did so comport himself , that they unwittingly put him to death ; by which means , immediately safety and deliverance arose to the city , as the oracle had declared . so little was his life in esteem with him , when the good and safety of his country required the laying of it down . the bill of exceptions , translated out of the best latine form the prisoner could procure , no counsel learned in the law daring to assist him in those circumstances , without assignment from the court , which was denied . first , concerning my imprisonment . ( . ) i shall here mention my entrance into this new scene of sufferings , under the present power , ( after my having been handled at will and pleasure , under the six years usurpation of cromwel ) which i conceive not to have been at all according to the law of the land , as may appear by the th chap. of magna charta , and cook upon it , with many other statutes and law-books : in all which it appears , that the law of england is so tender , not to say curious , in providing for the subjects liberty , that he is not to suffer the least restraint , confinement of imprisonment , but by the lawfull judgment of his peers , or by the law of the land : contrary to all which , i was committed at meer will and pleasure , and have been detained close prisoner these two years , without any cause specified , or any particular crime laid to my charge . secondly , concerning transactions at the grand jury . ( . ) the grand . jury of middlesex , without my privity , knowledge or presence , ( after i had been kept a close prisoner two full years ) did meet , take the depositions of witnesses , and find the bill against me , which inevitably exposed me to a tryal at the kings bench bar , for i knew not what ; whereas major rolph and others have had the right of englishmen granted them , to be present at the grand juries proceedings ; yea , and to have counsel also present , to plead any thing in a way of reason or law , for invalidating the testimony or disabling the witnesses , whereby the indictment hath been immediately quash'd , and so , the party accused , delivered from any shadow of infamy , by so much as appearing in the circumstances of a male-factor at any publick bar of justice . that this prisoner had great need of that priviledge , of being present himself , or having counsel and other friends present at the grand jury , will appear hereafter , by the subdolous and injurious handling of matters there . thirdly , concerning the jurisdiction of the court. ( . ) the offences supposed to be committed by me , are things done not of my own head , but as a member of the long parliament . or in pursuance of their authority . the matters done by me , in the one respect or the other , if they be deemed offences , are punishable only in parliament , and i ought not to be questioned for them in any inferiour court ; as cook shews in the th part of his institutes , chap. . concerning the high court of parliament . for the parliament is not confined in their actings , by the law which inferiour courts are tied up to , but in divers cases are priviledged to act extraordinarily and unaccountably to any but themselves , or succeeding parliaments . moreover , that parliament was extraordinarily commissioned , qualified and authorized by express act of parliament , beyond all preceding parliaments , for the causes and ends declared in the preamble of the act for their establishment , accorded and passed by the joynt consent of king , lords and commons , whereby they became unsubjected to adjournment , prorogation or dissolution , but by their own respective voluntary consents , to be by them expressed and passed for that purpose , with the royal assent ; which occasioned his late majesty in his answer to the nineteen propositions , to say , that the power hereby legally placed in both houses , was more than sufficient to prevent and restrain the power of tyranny . and further , the bringing of this case under the jurisdiction of this court , or of any other , but a parliament , may prove of very dangerous consequence , in point of precedent , and most disagreeing to all rules of justice . for , first , by the same reason that i am questioned in this court , not only every member of parliament , but the very houses themselves , with all their debates , votes and orders , may not only be questioned , but referred to a petty jury , and so come to be judged and sentenc'd by a court inferiour to themselves , which judges in all times have disclaimed and acknowledged to be out of their power , according to the known rule , par in pares non habet imperium , multo minus in eos , qui majus imperium habent . secondly , in such case , the parties accused , will be debarred of evidence or witness for their justification and defence . for no members , &c. present at debates in parliament , ( who are the onely eye and ear-witnesses of what is said and done there ) ought to discover the counsels of the house . fourthly , concerning the indictment . . i have not been permitted to have a copy or sight of the indictment , nor so much as to hear it read in latine , which is the original record of the court , and ought to be the foundation of their whole proceeding with me . i often desired these things of the court ; yea , or at least , to have but the transcripts of some particular clauses in the indictment , to enable me to shew the deficiencies thereof in law , ( all which , others in such cases have often obtained ) but nothing would be granted herein . this then was my hard lot and usage ; i was put ( after two years close imprisonment ) to answer for my life , to a long indictment , read in english , which whether it were rightly translated how should i know , that might not hear the original record in latine ? counsel also learned in the law , were denied me , though pressed for by me , again and again , before i pleaded . and had they been granted , what could they have said as to defects of law in the indictment , unless they might have a copy of it ? what can any counsel say to any petty business concerning any part of a man's estate that 's in controversie , unless they may have a leisurely view and perusal of the writings thereabouts ? much more sure will it appear requisit , to the reason of all mankind , when a man 's whole estate , life and all are at stake . 't is true , before i pleaded , this court promised i should have counsel assigned me after pleading , ( god forfend else , said the lord chief justice ) but 't is as true , i never could yet see that promise made good . all things tending to a fair tryal , were promised me in general before pleading , but every material particular for the just defence of my life , hath been denied me ever since . and my tryal for life was hudled up the next day of my appearing before you ; the jury as was told me ) must not eat or drink , till they had done their work ; ( so the more than forty jewry-men that resolved to kill paul , act. . . ) but why such haste and precipitancy for a man's life , that 's more than meat or estate , when you can let civil causes about mens estates depend many years ? and if an erroneous judgment be passed in such matters , 't is reversible ; but if innocent blood be spilt , it cannot be gathered up again , as the wise woman of tekoah said , sam. . . but secondly then , as to defects in the indictment , which i was in some measure enabled to observe from that broken hearing thereof , that was afforded me here in the court ; i say , there are many , and those very considerable ; and by the law of england i ought not to have been urged to plead or make answer to such an illegal and defective indictment . . there is no sufficient overt act therein alledged , of the prisoner's imagining the king's death , or that he had any the least intention that way . . the levying of a war , is alledged in southwark , and cannot therefore be tryed by a jury of middlesex ; dyer , fol. . and the d part of cook 's institutes , fol. . . there is uncertainty and obscurity in the main thing alledged against me in the indictment ; to wit , that i , together with a multitude of persons , to the number of a thousand , unknown to the jury , &c. whereas no criminal act can be tryed that is not certain ; certa res debet esse quae deducitur in judicium . . the treason laid to my charge , is alledged to have been committed with a multitude of other false traitors , which were pardoned by the act of indempnity ; such supposed crimes therefore of theirs cannot be remembred or alledged , without a manifest breach of the act of indempnity and oblivion . the indictment is , or ought to be founded on some clause or branch of . ed. . chap. . but no such overt act is alledged in the indictment , or proved by witnesses , as doth discover that i had any intention to kill , depose or hold out the king from the possession and exercise of his regal power . whereas i am accused of compassing or imagining the death of the king ; this must be understood of his natural or personal , not politick capacity ; for in this latter sence , the law sayes , the king cannot die . first then , to compass only the deposition of the king , is not within the words of that statute , ( several kings have been deposed by parliaments since the conquest ) and as to my compassing or designing the natural death of the king's person , with what colour can i be accused of such intentions , in the circumstances the king at that time was in beyond the seas ? secondly , the assembling of men together , without any hostility or injury offered to any person , but for a man 's own security and defence , in a time of confusion and distraction , is not levying war , or treason at the common law , or by that statute . yea , in this case , and at the season wherein such an act as this is alledged , it might be supposed to be done for the king's restoration as well as in opposition thereunto ; and the most favourable and advantagious construction ought to be made and put upon the prisoner's actings or words , where there is ambiguity , so that they may be taken or interpreted divers wayes . for the law alwayes presumeth actions to be innocent , till the contrary be manifestly proved . however , in a time of vacancy or an interregnum , when the foundations of government are out of course , by the law of reason , nature , and common prudence , every man may stand upon his own guard , endeavouring his own security and protection from injury and violence . thirdly , to be adherent to the king's enemies within his realm , &c. cannot , ought not to be understood of any adhaesion to a parliament , wherein the king by law is supposed alwayes present , as a part thereof . nor can the long parliament be called the king's enemies , without overthrowing the act of indempnity , which the king hath declared to be the foundation of the nations present peace and security . lastly , the treasons alledged in the indictment , are said to have been committed when the king was out of possession ; so the indictments runs , to keep out the king , &c. now my lord cook in the third part of his institutes , fol. . saith , a king de jure , and not de facto , is not within this statute ; against such a one no treason can be committed . for if there be a king regnant in possession , though he be rex de facto , and not de jure , yet is he seignior le roy , within the purview of this statute ; and the other that hath right , and is out of possession , is not within this act. nay , if treason be committed against a king de facto , & non de jure , and after the king de jure cometh to the crown , he shall punish the treason done to the king de facto . and after , in the same place he saith , that by law there is alwayes a king , in whose name the laws are to be maintained and executed ; otherwayes justice would fail . the act also of . hen. . was made for security of the subject on this behalf . the word king also may and ought to be taken largely for any sovereign power , in a king or queen , as cook in the place fore-quoted , shews ; and why not by the same reason , in a protector , though a usurper , or any other persons , one or more , in whom soveraignty is lodged , or that have all the badges of soveraignty , as the calling of parliaments , enacting of laws , coining of money , receiving forreign ambassadors , & c. ? his majesty that now is , is granted by the very indictment to have been then out of possession : if so , then was there either some other king , or what was equivolent , some sovereign power in actual possession and exercise , or none . if the former , then was there a king de facto , so no treason could be committed against him that was king de jure only : if the latter , then the government was dissolved , no allegiance was due to any persons , and so no offence could be properly treason , within the statute . but had the late protector had the name and stile of a king , no treason could have been committed against the king de jure only . now god forbid that you should give away my life upon such niceties , because a usurping protector was not clothed with the title as well as power of a king. the protector or any usurper's taking or not taking the title of a king , in case he have the power , cannot alter the state of my supposed crime . you ought not to be byassed by popular reports concerning me . 't is easier to be innocent , than so reported . the one is in our own power , not the other . fifthly , concerning the evidence . . no allegation was directly proved by two positive lawful witnesses , as in this case it ought to be . . one of the witnesses for the king , confessed in open court , that to his knowledge my hand had been counterfeited , to my prejudice and dammage , in great sums of money ; yet orders pretended to be signed by me , ( wherein my hand may as well be counterfeited ) are taken as evidence against me . . the issue of the whole cause depended on the solution of some difficult questions , of so high a nature and great importance , as could not safely be determined but in the high court of parliament ; as , . whether the long parliament , called in novemb. , were dissolved by the late king's death ? . whether the successive remaining powers , that exercised the royal or supream authority from , to the restoration of his now majesty , were not within the true sense and meaning of . edw. . and . hen. ? as to other pertinent queries , thou mayest see them , reader , in other parts of this tryal . that which remains , as an appendix to this bill of exceptions , is to lay before thee the grounds which plainly shew that there was a downright conspiracy in sir vane's tenants and others , to prosecute him for life and estate , under colour and pretence of justice . . presently after i was committed to the tower for high treason , and made a close-prisoner , mr. oneale , sir william darcy and dr. cradock obtained an order from the king , to seize and take into their possession , all the estates of such persons , that were already or should be forfeited to his majesty . hereupon the said mr. oneale and sir will. darcy appointed some under them in the bishoprick of durham , ( by name , thomas bowes esque now deceased , and capt. william darcy ) to joyn with the said dr. cradock , to put in execution the said warrant , as their deputies , who thereupon went to raby castle , and demanded the rent-books of thomas mowbray my steward , offering him his place under them , which he refused . contrary to this proceeding , sir edward cook expresly declares , that before indictment , the goods or other things of any offender , cannot be searched , inventoried , or in any sort seized ; nor after indictment , seized , removed , or taken away , before conviction or attainder . institut . d part , chap. . concerning the seizure of goods , &c. for offences , &c. before conviction . . at the instance and prosecution of my tenants and others , an order was made by the house of commons ( not of the lords ) requiring the tenants of such persons as were excepted out of the general pardon , to detain their rents in their own hands . by pretence of this order , ( though that parliament that made it , were dissolved ) the tenants refused to pay their respective rents , as they grew due , contrary to all law and equity ; and joyned together in open defiance and conspiracy against their landlord . . the said tenants , ( when legally prosecuted in his majesties courts at westminster , for the recovery of the said rents out of their hands ) did petition the late house of commons to put a stop to such legal prosecution and suits ; which motion of theirs , put the house into a great heat and violence against me , insomuch that they had no most passed a vote to sequester all my estate , though unheard or unconvicted . . william watson of cock-field , and other of the said tenants , have continued in london to carry on this conspiracy against me , by whose means , with others , the king hath been importuned to send for men from the isle of silly , in order to this tryal . . by common fame ( which , at least , affords a strong presumption ) my goods and estate have been long begg'd by several persons , and granted : whereas the begging of the goods and estate of any delinquent , accused or indicted of treason , before he be convicted and attainted , is utterly unlawful ; because till then , nothing is forfeited to the king , and so , not his to dispose of ; as sir edward cook shews , in the fore-mentioned chapter about the seizure of goods , &c. . i am credibly informed , that about december last , a certain captain came from the duke of albemarle , to capt. linn , with threatning language , that if he would not confess things against sir henry vane , he should be fetch'd up before the council and made to do it . linn answered , he knew nothing against sir henry vane , nor had any orders from him , but from the parliament and council . the same captain came again , about a fortnight after , from the duke of albemarle , with a parcel of fine words , that if he the said linn would testifie , that sir henry vane was in the head of his regiment , and that he received orders from him , the duke of albemarle would gratifie him with any civility he should desire . linn replied , he knew no regiment sir henry vane had , but that it was the parliaments and council of states regiment . the same captain came again to him , from the duke of albemarle , and told him , the duke desired him to testifie sir vane's being in the head of his regiment , and that he received orders from him , to fight sir george booth ; linn replied , he knew no such things . the captain told him , as from the duke , he should have any place or office in the court. be not afraid to speak , said he , i warrant you , we shall hang sir henry vane , for he is a rogue . . i am credibly informed , that one of the grand jury declared , that after the bill of indictment against me , was brought in , some from the king's counsel came to desire them , they would please to come into the inward court of wards ; upon which , one of the jury said , they were there to judge of matters brought before them , and ought not to go in thither ; but if the counsel had any thing to say , they ought to come to them . this was seconded by some ; others said , they were the king's counsel , and it was but matter of civility to grant them their request : whereupon they went into the inward court of wards , where the king's counsel were , to wit , attorney-general palmer , sollicitor-general fynch , serjeant glyn and serjeant keeling . after a while , they caused all to withdraw but the jury . then the clerk read the indictment in the usual form for levying war from . after it was read , one of the counsel told them , it was a bill of high treason against his majesty , and they were to consider of it according to their evidence . then they proceeded to examine their witnesses . jefford said , sir henry vane offered him a commission to go against sir george booth ; which , said serjeant keeling , was to go against the king. wright , being examined whether he saw sir henry vane in the council , said , yes . the attorney-general replied , that if he was amongst them , they might find the bill upon that . upon this , the jury withdrew , and were by themselves . then sir john croply , the foreman , said , we must pass this bill ; at which all the jury were silent . at last , one stood up and said ; this bill contains matter of fact , and matter of law. some of this jury , to my knowledge , were never of any jury before , as well as i , therefore ignorant of the law , ( in so difficult and unusual a point as this is ) and consequently could not give in their verdict , as to law , but only fact. several others of the jury seconded him in this , and protested against giving in their verdict , as to matter of law ; notwithstanding all which , the bill was carried up to the king 's bench. . on the day of my arraignment , an eminent person was heard to say , i had forfeited my head , by what i said that day , before ever i came to my defence : what that should be , i know not , except my saying in open court , soveraign power of parliament , which the attorney-general writ down , after he had promised at my request , no exception should be taken at words . and whole volumns of lawyers books pass up and down the nation with that title , soveraign power of parliaments . . six moderate men , that were like to consider what they did , before they would throw away my life , were summoned to be of my petty jury , which the king's counsel hearing , writ a letter to one of the sheriffs , to unsummon them ; and a new list was made , the night immediately before the day of verdict , on purpose that the prisoner might not have any knowledge of them , till presented to his view and choice in westminster-hall . yet one of the fourty eight of this list , ( who said he would have starv'd himself before he would have found sir hen. vane guilty of treason ) was never called , though he walked in the hall all the while . and in that hurry of those that compassed him about , he being alone , stripp'd of all assistance , sir william roberts foreman , and sir christopher abdy , were sworn by the court , before i was aware ; so my challenging them , might seem a personal disobliging and exasperation of them against me , after they were sworn and fixed . the sollicitor also had a long whisper with the foreman of the jury , in the court , before they went to verdict , telling him , the prisoner must be a sacrifice for the nation , &c. suddenly after which i am here called to receive my sentence . . after the day of my tryal , the judges went to hampton-court . . none were more forward to absolve the king from his grant about my life , than they that had appeared most forward in promoting the bill by way of petition to the king , for it . this grant , being upon record , may seem to have the same validity that other acts of parliament have , which are still but the two houses petition to the king for his assent to the bills by them drawn up and passed . they used this , as a means to induce the king to exempt me from all benefit of the act of indempnity and oblivion , and then at last perswade and absolve him from making good this grant also , thereby depriving me of all visible relief for my life . i conceived my life as secure by that grant , as others lives or estates are by the act of indempnity it self ; for what is that but the bill of both houses , with the king's assent to it , upon their petition ? the petition of both houses of parliament to the king 's most excellent majesty , on the behalf of sir henry vane , and col. john lambert , after they left them uncapable of having any benefit of the act of indempnity . to the king 's most excellent majesty . the humble petition of the lords and commons assembled in parliament . sheweth , that your majesty having declared your gracious pleasure to proceed only against the immediate murderers of your royal father : we your majesties most humble subjects , the lords and commons assembled , not finding sir henry vane nor col. lambert to be of that number , are humble suiters to your majesty , that if they shall be attainted , that execution , as to their lives , may be remitted ; and as in duty bound , &c. the said petition being read , it was agreed to , and ordered to be presented to his majesty by the lord chancellor . the lord chancellor reported , that he had presented the petition of both houses , to the king's majesty , concerning sir henry vane and col. lambert , and his majesty grants the desires in the said petition . john browne , cler. parliamentorum . concerning the proceedings of the court. . the judges denied counsel to the prisoner , on this pretext , that they ( as they were to be ) would be his counsel . they are the king's commissary judges , preferred and paid for their work by the king , who ( in this case ) was , through evil and false suggestions , rendred the prisoners chief or only adversary , whose death he stood accused of imagining and compassing . what counsel or assistance the prisoner was like to have from them , let the world judge . . his jury consisted of persons that had been engaged against him , in that very controversie and cause for which he was tryed . a forreigner , in any criminal case amongst us , may require six of his jurors to be of his own countrymen ; a french-man , six french-men ; a dutch-man , six dutch-men ; &c. there was but one here ( that was suspected only to have something of an english man in him ) sworn of the jury ; and the lord chief justice sharply rebuked the clerk of the court , alledging , that he knew not but he might have brought bread and cheese in his pocket , and would keep them all night , with other words to like purpose . . the prisoner was not suffered to speak a word to the jury , after the king's counsel had spoken , to take off the aggravating glosses they had put upon his pretended crime ; and the judges , ( that said they would be the prisoner's counsel ) dismissed the jury , possessed with the last exasperating charge , given by those , who were both the accusers and professed counsel against him . . the prisoner , on his sentence-day , challenged the sollicitor before the court , as to the injury done him on the day of his tryal , by his large and bitter invective , which he had not liberty to reply to , ( for the vindicating of his own innocency , and unpejudicing the juries understanding ) in the fittest season . the judges that had promised him ( before pleading ) they would be his counsel ( instead of relieving him herein , as in all reason they ought ) afforded him no other answer , but a sharp rebuke , for criminating and scandalizing the court , together with some threatning expressions . but what need had he to regard their threatnings , that he saw resolved to pass a sentence of death upon him , say what he would ? the main thing he charged the sollicitor with , was his saying openly in court , that he must be made a publick sacrifice , ( shewing no reason why ) and of whispering to the foreman of the jury , in the court , before they went to verdict ; a thing notoriously against all law and reason . amongst other things , he had also said , what counsel did the prisoner think would ( or durst ) speak for him , in such a manifest case of treason , unless he could call down the heads of those his fellow-traitors ( bradshaw or cook ) from the top of westminster-hall ? ( or to that effect ) when as there were able heads in the bottom of westminster-hall , ready to have spoken to his case , if they might have been assigned by the court. but what may not be said , when nothing may be replied ? for a person , that is designing his own interest , honours , advantages and preferments , to have the last word to the jury , against a prisoner that stands at the bar in danger of his life , ( and that , a person of so generally acknowledged worth and publick concern ) and to perform it with impertinent flashes of wit , and declamatory flourishes of rhetorick , ( sending away the jury with the fresh and last impressions of all that noise and buzze of his glosses upon the whole matter , and having with irritating expressions misrepresented and aggravated the supposed crimes ) is a thing to be hissed oft the stage of this earth , by the common reason of all mankind . what worse circumstances can a prisoner be in , than to stand at a bar of justice to be tryed , and there hear his professed accuser and adversary , misrepresenting , miscalling , and aggravating the actions he is questioned for , pressing all upon the jurors consciences with the greatest edge and flourish of all the art , wit and eloquence he is furnished with ( as tertullus served paul ) and then be deprived of all possible defence against his slanderous and injurious suggestions ? paul was not so served ; he had the last word to his jury , when tertullus had done , acts . but the children of this world are wise in their generation ; they knew well they had to deal with one , that had been experienced for twenty years together , to be a person of a very happy and unparallel'd dexterity in taking off the paint and false appearances that others ( by premeditated speeches ) could put upon ill matters , with an extemporary breath . if it be said , he had fair warning beforehand , to say all that he had to mind the jury of , and that he was not to speak after the king's counsel . it is answered ; though this were hard at best , and indeed , not at all sutable to the true and lawfull liberties of english-men , yet were it more tolerable , in case the king's counsel had started no new thing against the prisoner , used no provoking and unworthy expressions , or made no new and unforeseen glosses upon the matter he stood charged with . for then the prisoner might be presumed to have sufficiently obviated beforehand , any thing that would be said by the counsel , ( had they only recapitulated ) and so ( probably ) might have rendred his jury somewhat uncapable of being prejudiced thereby against him , unless they were as willing to abuse him as the counsel . but here were many things said at random , against all sense , law and reason , ( as if tully had been charactering a treacherous catil●ne ) and the innocent prisoner must be mute , and suffer the jury to be dismissed , and sent to pass their verdict on his life , without the least possibility of remedy . put this and all the rest together , ( to wit , that the jury themselves were of the opposit party to him in the late wars and whole cause in question , depending before them ) and it had been far better for the prisoner , to have cast lots on a drum-head for his life , as a prisoner of war , than to be so tryed in a time of peace , unless it can be reasonably presumed , that they that would have killed him any time this twenty year in the field , should now be like to spare his life at the bar. occasional speeches before his tryal . he said , there was something in this cause , that could never be conquered , and that he blessed the lord , it had never been betrayed by him , or conquered in him . and before this , in a letter from silly to a friend , he said , god's arm is not shortned ; doubtless great and precious promises are yet in store to be accomplished , in and upon believers here on earth , to the making of christ admired in them . and if we cannot live in the power and actual fruition of them , yet if we die in the certain foresight and imbracing of them by faith , it will be our great blessing . this dark night and black shade , which god hath drawn over his work in the midst of us , may be ( for ought we know ) the ground-colour to some beautiful piece , that he is now exposing to the light . when he came from his tryal , he told a friend , he was as much overjoyed , as a chast virgin that had escaped a rape : for , said he , neither flatteries before , nor threatnings now , could prevail upon me ; and i bless god that enabled me to make a stand for this cause ; for i saw the court resolved to run it down , and ( through the assistance of god ) i resolved they should run over my life and blood first . june . being friday , the day before his execution . on this day , liberty being given to friends to visit him in the tower , he received them with very great chearfulness , and with a composed frame of spirit , having wholly given up himself to the will of god. he did occasionally let fall many gracious expressions , to the very great refreshing , and strengthning of the hearts of the hearers . to wit , that he had for any time these two years made death familiar to him , and being shut up from the world , he said , he had been shut up with god , and that he did know what was the mind of god to him in this great matter ; but , that he had not the least recoyl in his heart , as to matter or manner of what was done by him ; and though he might have had an opportunity of escaping , or by policy might have avoided his charge , yet he did not make use of it , nor could decline that which was come upon him . it being told him by a friend , that his death would be a loss to the people of god : he answered , that god would raise up other instruments to serve him and his people . and being desired to say something , to take off that charge of jesuitism , that was cast upon him ; he said , that he thought it not worth the taking notice of ; for if it were so , he should never have been brought to this . a friend said , sir , the lord hath said , be thou faithful unto death , and i will give thee a crown of life . the lord enable you to be faithful . he replied , i bless the lord , i have not had any discomposure of spirit these two years , but i do wait upon the lord , till he be pleased to put an end to these dayes of mine , knowing that i shall change for the better : for in heaven there is an innumerable company of angels , the spirits of just men made perfect , and jesus the blessed mediator of the new covenant . there are holy and just laws , a pure government , blessed and good company , every one doing their duty ; herr we want all these . this is that city spoken of , psal . . , . that strong city , that cannot be moved , isa . . why therefore should we be unwilling to leave this estate to go that ? and although i be taken from hence , yet know assuredly , god will raise up unto you instruments out of the dust . another said to him ; sir , there is nothing will stand you in stead , but justifying faith in the blood of jesus . to which he said , there are some , that through faith in the blood of christ , do escape the pollutions of the world , yet afterwards are entangled therein again ; others there be , that are carried through the greatest sufferings , by a more excellent , spiritual sort of faith in the blood of jesus , and endure them with the greatest joy . he further said , we were lately preaching a funeral sermon to our selves , out of heb. . , . where those blessed witnesses do declare themselves to be pilgrims and strangers on the earth , and do desire a better country , that is , a heavenly ; wherefore god is not ashamed to be called their god , for he hath prepared for them a city . and if god ( said he ) be not ashamed to be called my god , i hope i shall not be ashamed to endure his cross , and to bear his reproach , even whatsoever it be that man can impose upon me , for his sake . yea , he will enable me not to be ashamed . i have not the least reluctancy or strugling in my spirit against death . i desire not to live ; but my will is resigned up to god in all . why are you troubled ? i am not . you have need of faith and patience to follow the lord's call. this ought chiefly to be in our eye , the bringing glory to our heavenly father . surely god hath a glorious design to carry on in the world , even the building up of david's throne to all generations . for he is compleating all his precious stones , making them heaven-proof , and then laying them together in the heavenly mansions , with the spirits of the just , till it be a compleat city . when the top-stone thereof is laid , then will he come in all his glory . this day , is a day wherein christ appears in the clouds . oh , that every one of our eyes may see him , and consider how we-have pierced him in his members , that we may mourn ! our lord jesus said , father , i have finished the work that thou gavest me to do , and now ( father ) glorifie me with the same glory i had with thee before the world was . our lord was capable of his glory beforehand ; and although we be not so capable as he , yet this we know , he wills the same to us , that where he is , we may be also , that we may behold his glory . and he is our head , in whom we are made capable , being chosen in him before the foundation of the world ; and he hath set us in heavenly places in christ jesus . the hope of this glory sweetens all our sufferings . i know , a day of deliverance for sion will come . some may think the manner of it may be , as before , with confused noise of the warriour , and garments rolled in blood ; but i rathe think it will be with burning , and fewel of fire . the lord will send a fire , that shall burn in the consciences of his enemies , a worm that shall not die , and a fire that shall not go out . men , they may fight against ; but this they cannot fight against . it being told him by a friend , that he had delivered him up unto god as a sacrifice , though ( said he ) i have day and night prayed that this cup might pass from you . he replied , that he blessed god , he had offered himself up first to god , and it was a rejoycing to him that others had given him up also . and why , said he ( speaking before all the company ) should we be frighted with death ? i bless the lord , i am so far from being affrighted with death , that i find it rather shrink from me , than i from it . his children being then present , to take their leave of him , he said , i bless god , by the eye of faith i can see through all my relations to mount sion , and there i shall need none of them . i have better acquaintance in heaven . these relations are nothing to those i shall meet with there . then kissing his children , he said , the lord bless you , he will be a better father to you : i must now forget that ever i knew you . i can willingly leave this place and outward enjoyments , for those i shall meet with hereafter , in a better country . i have made it my business , to acquaint my self with the society of heaven . be not you troubled , for i am going home to my father . i die in the certain faith and forefight , that this cause shall have its resurrection in my death . my blood will be the seed sown , by which this glorious cause will spring up which god will speedily raise . the laying down this earthly tabernacle is no more , but throwing down the mantle , by which a double portion of the spirit will fall on the rest of gods people . and if by my being offered up , the faith of many be confirmed , and others convinced and brought to the knowledge of the truth , how can i desire greater honour and matter of rejoycing ? as for that glorious cause , which god hath owned in these nations , and will own , in which so many righteous souls have lost their lives , and so many have been engaged by my countenance and encouragement , shall i now give it up , and so declare them all rebels and murderers ? no , i will never do it : that precious blood shall never lie at my door . as a testimony and seal to the justness of that quarrel , i leave now my life upon it , as a legacy to all the honest interest in these three nations . ten thousand deaths , rather than defile my conscience , the chastity and purity of which i value beyond all this world ; and god is not a little concern'd on my behalf . he will certainly judge my case , wherein is the bowels of this good cause , and in the bowels of that , the kingdom of jesus christ , which will speedily be set on foot in these nations . i would not for ten thousand lives , part-with this peace and satisfaction i have in my own heart , ( both in holding to the purity of my principle , and to the righteousness of this good cause ) and the assurance i have that god is now fulfilling all these great and precious promises , in order to what he is bringing forth . although i see it not , yet i die in the faith and assured expectation of it , hebr. . . and the eternal blessedness god hath prepared for me , and is ready now to receive me into , will abundantly make up all other things . through the power and goodness of god , i have had in this tryal of mine , such a proof of the integrity of my own heart , as hath been no small joy to me . the expressions of grief from his friends , he said , were but so many lets and hindrances to him , in the view he had of that glory he was going to possess , that heavenly city and commonwealth , where he should behold the face of god and of his son , in a society of angels , and the spirits of just men made perfect . some few dayes before his suffering , his thoughts were much fixed upon psal . . . where are these words ; god is the lord , which hath shewed us light ; bind the sacrifice with cords , even unto the horns of the altar . from this , he said , that god gives light , and is light to his people , under their darkest circumstances and sufferings ; and when he calls them forth to suffer , he binds them as sacrifices with cords , in three respects : first , by the cord of his love to us , for he loved us first . secondly , by the cruelty of our enemies . thirdly , by our resignation-duty and love to him . these three cords have bound me so fast , i cannot stir . upon friends perswading him , to make some submission to the king , and to endeavour the obtaining of his life ; he said , if the king did not think himself more concern'd for his honour and word , than he did for his life , he was very willing they should take it . nay , i declare ( said he ) that i value my life less in a good cause , than the king can do his promise . and when some others were speaking to him , of giving some thousands of pounds for his life ; he said , if a thousand farthings would gain it , he would not give it : and if any should attempt to make such a bargain , he would spoil their market : for i think the king himself is so sufficiently obliged to spare my life , that it is fitter for him to do it , than my self to seek it . he rejoyced exceedingly , that god assisted him so eminently in bearing his testimony with faithfulness even unto death ; and that he as willingly laid down his life , and with as much satisfaction , as ever he went to bed . for in a natural sickness , death seized on the body , without any consent of the mind ; but this was a free action of his mind , without any constraint upon his body . mention being made to him of the cruel proceedings against him ; alas ( said he ) what ado they keep to make a poor creature like his saviour ! in discourse he said , if the shedding of my blood , may prove an occasion of gathering together in one , the dispersed interests and remnant of the adherers to this cause ( of whatever differing perswasions ) i should think ten thousand lives ( if i had them ) well spent in such a service . he was much pleased in this consideration , that he was hastening to a place where god nor none of his , would be ashamed to own and receive him . here is nothing in this world ( saith he ) but reproaching and despising god's precious saints ; but in heaven there is a good reception for them , where are mansions prepared from the beginning of the world . he said , you will shortly see god coming forth with vengeance upon the whole earth , vengeance upon the outward-man of his saints , and vengeance upon the inward-man of his and their enemies ; and that shall perform greater execution , than was heretofore . after his sentence , he said to some friends , god brought him upon on three stages , ( to wit , before the court ) and was now leading him to the fourth ( his execution-place ) which was far easier and pleasanter to him than any of the other three . saturday june . , being the day of his execution , on tower-hill . he told a friend , god bid moses go to the top of mount pisgah , and die ; so he bid him now , go to the top of tower-hill , and die . some passages of his prayer with his lady , children , and other friends in his chamber . most holy and gracious father , look down from the habitation of thy holiness ; visit , relieve and comfort us thy poor servants , here gathered together in the name of christ . thou art rending this vaile , and bringing us to a mountain that abides firm . we are exceeding interrupters of our own joy , peace and good , by the workings and reasonings of our own hearts . thou hast promised , that thou wilt be a mouth to thy people in the hour of tryal : for thou hast required us , to forbear the preparatory agitations of our own minds , because it is not we that are to speak , but the spirit of our heavenly father that speaketh in us , in such seasons . in what seasons more , ( lord ) than when thou callest for the testimony of thy servants to be writ in characters of blood ? shew thy self in a poor weak worm , by enabling him to stand against all the power of thy enemies . there hath been a battel fought with garments rouled in blood , in which ( upon solemn appeals on both sides ) thou didst own thy servants , though through the spirit of hypocrisie and apostacy , that hath sprung up amongst us , these nations have been thought unworthy any longer to enjoy the fruits of that deliverance . thou hast therefore another day of decision , to come , which shall be wrought by fire . such a battel is to begin , and be carried on by the faith of thy people , yea , is in some sort , begun by the faith of thy poor servant , that is now going to seal thy cause with his blood. oh that this decision of thine may remarkably shew it self in thy servant at this time , by his bold testimony and sealing it with his blood. we know not what interruptions may attend thy servant , but lord , let thy power carry him in a holy triumph over all difficulties . thou art the great judge and law-giver ; for the sake of thy servants therefore , o lord , return on high , and cause a righteous sentence to come forth from thy presence , for the relief of thy despised people . this , thy servants with faith and patience wait for . the working of this faith in us , causeth the enemy to give ground already . if death be not able to terrifie us from keeping a good conscience , and giving a good testimony against them , what can they do but stumble and fall backwards ? the day approaches in which thou wilt decide this controversie , not by might nor by power , but by the spirit of the living god. this spirit will make its own way , and run through the whole earth . then shall it be said , where is the fury of the oppressor ? who is he that dares or can stand before the spirit of the lord , in the mouth of his witnesses ? arise , o lord , and let thine enemies be scattered . thy poor servant knows not how he shall be carried forth by thee this day , but , blessed be thy great name , that he hath whereof to speak in this great cause . when i shall be gathered to thee this day , then come thou in the ministry of thy holy angels that excel in strength . we have seen enough of this world , and thou seest , we have enough of it . let these my friends , that are round about me , commit me to the lord , and let them be gathered into the family of abraham the father of the faithful , and become faithful witnesses of those principles and truths that have been discovered to them , that it may be known , that a poor weak prophet hath been amongst them , not by the words of his mouth onely , but by the voice of his blood and death , which will speak when he is gone . good lord , put words into his mouth that may daunt his enemies , so that they may be forced to say , god is in him of a truth , and that the son of god is in his heart , and in his mouth . my hour-glass is now turned up , the sand runs out apace , and it is my happiness that death doth not surprize me . it is grace and love thou dost shew thy poor servant , that thou hastenest out his time , and lettest him see it runs out with joy and peace . little do my enemies know ( as eager as they are to have me gone ) how soon their breaths may be drawn in . but let thy servant see death shrink under him . what a glorious sight will this be in the presence of many witnesses , to have death shrink under him , which he acknowledgeth to be only by the power of the resurrection of jesus christ , whom the bands of death could not hold down ? let that spirit enter into us that will set us again upon our feet , and let us be led into that way , that the enemies may not know how to deal with us . oh! what abjuring of light , what treachery , what meanness of spirit has appeared in this day ? what is the matter ? oh! death is the matter . lord , strengthen the faith and heart of thy poor servant , to undergo this dayes work with joy and gladness , and bear it on the heart and consciences of his friends that have known and seen him , that they also may say , the lord is in him of a truth . oh that thy servant could speak any blessing to these three nations . let thy remnant be gathered to thee . prosper and relieve that poor handful that are in prisons and bonds , that they may be raised up and trample death under foot . let my poor family that is left desolate , let my dear wife and children be taken into thy care , be thou a husband , father and master to them . let the spirits of those that love me , be drawn out towards them . let a blessing be upon these friends that are here at this time , strengthen them , let them find love and grace in thine eyes , and be increased with the increasings of god. shew thy self a loving father to us all , and do for us abundantly , above and beyond all that we can ask or think , for jesus christ his sake . amen . several friends being with him in his chamber this morning , he oft encouraged them to chearfulness , as wel by his example as expression . in all his deportment , he shewed himself marvellously fitted to meet the king of terrors , without the least affrightment . but to shew where his strength lay , he said , he was a poor unworthy wretch , and had nothing but the grace and goodness of god to depend upon . he said , moreover , death shrunk from him , rather than he from it . upon the occasion of parting with his relations , he said , there is some flesh remaining yet , but i must cast it behind me , and press forward to my father . then one of the sheriffs men came in and told him , there was no sled to come , but he was to walk on foot . he told his friends , the sheriffs chaplain came to him at twelve of the clock that night , with an order for his execution , telling him , he was come to bring him that fatal message of death . i think ( friends ) that in this message was no dismalness at all ; after the receipt of which , i slept four hours so soundly , that the lord hath made it sufficient for me , and now i am going to sleep my last , after which i shall need sleep no more . then mr. sheriff coming into the room , was friendly saluted by him , and after a little pause , communicated a prohibition that he said he had received , which was , that he must not speak any thing against his majesty , or the government . his answer to this he himself relates on the scaffold . he further told mr. sheriff , he was ready but the sheriff said , he was not , nor could be this half hour yet ; then sir , it rests on you , not on me ( said sir henry ) for i have been ready this half hour . then the shriff , at his request , promised him his servants should attend him on the scaffold and be civilly dealt with , neither of which were performed , for ( notwithstanding this promise ) they were beaten and kept off the scaffold , till he said , what ? have i never a servant here ? after this , one of the sheriffs men came and told him , there must be a sled ; to which sir henry replied , any way , how they please , for i long to be at home , to be dissolved and to be with christ , which is best of all . he went very chearfully and readily down the stairs from his chamber , and seated himself on the sled , ( friends and servants standing about him ) then he was forthwith drawn away towards the scaffold . as he went , some in the tower ( prisoners as well as others ) spake to him , praying the lord to go with him . and after he was out of the tower , from the tops of houses and out of windows , the people used such means and gestures as might best discover at a distance , their respects and love to him , crying aloud , the lord go with you , the great god of heaven and earth appear in you , and for you ; whereof he took what notice he was capable in those circumstances , in a chearful manner accepting their respect , putting off his hat and bowing to them . being asked several times , how he did , by some about him , he answered , never better in all my life . another replied , how should he do ill that suffers for so glorious a cause ? to which a tall black man said . many suffered for a better cause ; and may for a worse , said sir henry , wishing , that when they come to seal their better cause ( as he called it ) with their blood ( as he was now going to seal his ) they might not find themselves deceived ; and as to this cause , said he , it hath given life in death , to all the owners of it , and sufferers for it . being passed within the rails on tower-hill , there were many loud acclamations of the people , crying out , the lord jesus go with your dear soul , &c. one told him , that was the most glorious seat he ever sate on ; he answered , it is so indeed , and rejoyced exceedingly . being come to the scaffold , he chearfully ascends , and being up , after the crowd on the scaffold was broken in two pieces , to make way for him , he shewed himself to the people on the front of the scaffold , with that noble and christian-like deportment , that he rather seemed a looker-on , than the person concerned in the execution , insomuch that it was difficult to perswade many of the people , that he was the prisoner . but when they knew that the gentleman in the black sute and cloak ( with a scarlet silk wastcoat ( the victorious colour ) shewing it self at the breast ) was the prisoner , they generally admired that noble and great presence he appeared with . how chearful he is ! said some ; he does not look like a dying-man ! said others ; with many like speeches , as astonished with that strange appearance he shined forth in . then ( silence being commanded by the sheriff ) lifting up his hands and eyes towards heaven , and then resting his hands on the rails , and taking a very serious , composed and majestick view of the great multitude about him , he spake as followeth . his speech on the scaffold . gentlemen , fellow-countrymen , and christians , vvhen mr. sheriff came to me this morning , and told me he had received a command from the king , that i should say nothing reflecting upon his majesty or the government ; i answered , i should confine and order my speech , as near as i could , so as to be least offensive , saving my faithfulness to the trust reposed in me , which i must ever discharge with a good conscience unto death ; for i ever valued a man , according to his faithfulness to the trust reposed in him , even on his majesties behalf , in the late controversie . and if you dare trust my discretion , mr. sheriff , i shall do nothing but what becomes a good christian and an englishman ; and so i hope i shall be civilly dealt with . when mr. sheriffs chaplain came to me last night about twelve of the clock , to bring me , as he called it , the fatal message of death , it pleased the lord to bring that scripture to my mind , in the third of zechary , to intimate to me , that he was now taking away my filthy garments , causing mine iniquities to pass from me , with intention to give me change of raiment , and that my mortal should put on immortality . i suppose you may wonder when i shall tell you that i am not brought hither according to any known law of the land. it is true , i have been before a court of justice , ( and am now going to appear before a greater tribunal , where i am to give an account of all my actions ) under their sentence i stand here at this time . when i was before them , i could not have the liberty and priviledge of an englishman , the grounds , reasons , and causes of the actings i was charged with , duly considered : i therefore desired the judges , that they would set their seals to my bill of exceptions ; i pressed hard for it again and again , as the right of my self , and every free-born english-man , by the law of the land ; but was finally denied it . — here sir john robinson ( lieutenant of the tower ) interrupted him , saying , sir , you must not go on thus , and ( in a furious manner , generally observed , even to the dis-satisfaction of some of their own attendants ) said , that he railed against the judges , and that it was a lye , and i am here ( sayes he ) to testifie that it is false . sir henry vane replied , god will judge between me and you in this matter . i speak but matter of fact , and cannot you bear that ? 't is evident , the judges have refused to sign my bill of exceptions — then the trumpets were ordered to sound or murre in his face , with a contemptible noise , to hinder his being heard . at which sir henry ( lifting up his hand , and then laying it on his breast ) said , what mean you gentlemen ? is this your usage of me ? did you use all the rest so ? i had even done ( as to that ) could you have been patient , but seeing you cannot bear it , i shall only say this , that whereas the judges have refused to seal that with their hands , that they have done ; i am come to seal that with my blood , that i have done . therefore leaving this matter , which i perceive will not be born , i judge it meet to give you some account of my life . i might tell you , i was born a gentleman , had the education , temper and spirit of a gentleman , as well as others , being ( in my youthfull dayes ) inclined to the vanities of this world , and to that which they call good-fellowship , judging it to be the only means of accomplishing a gentleman . but about the fourteenth or fifteenth year of my age , ( which is about thirty four or five years since ) god was pleased to lay the foundation or ground-work of repentance in me , for the bringing me home to himself , by his wonderful rich and free grace , revealing his son in me , that by the knowledge of the onely true god , and jesus christ whom he hath sent , i might ( even whilst here in the body ) be made partaker of eternal life , in the first-fruits of it . when my conscience was thus awakened , i found my former course to be disloyalty to god , prophaneness , and a way of sin and death , which i did with tears and bitterness bewail , as i had cause to do . since that foundation of repentance laid in me , through grace i have been kept steadfast , desiring to walk in all good conscience towards god and towards men , according to the best light and understanding god gave me . for this , i was willing to turn by back upon my estate , expose my self to hazards in forreign parts ; yea , nothing seemed difficult to me , so i might preserve faith and a good conscience , which i prefer before all things ; and do earnestly perswade all people rather to suffer the highest contradictions from men , than disobey god , by contradicting the light of their own conscience . in this , it is , i stand with so much comfort and boldness before you all this day , and upon this occasion ; being assured , that i shall at last sit down in glory with christ , at his right hand . i stand here this day , to resign up my spirit into the hands of that god that gave it me . death is but a little word , but 't is a great work to die , it is to be but once done , and after this cometh the judgment , even the judgment of the great god , which it concerns us all to prepare for . and by this act , i do receive a discharge , once for all , out of prison , even the prison of the mortal body also , which to a true christian is a burdensom weight . in all respects , wherein i have been concerned and engaged as to the publick , my design hath been to accomplish good things for these nations . then ( lifting up his eyes , and spreading his hands ) he said , i do here appeal to the great god of heaven , and all this assembly , or any other persons , to shew wherein i have defiled my hands with any mans blood or estate , or that i have sought my self in any publick capacity or place i have been in . the cause was three times stated . . in the remonstrance of the house of commons . . in the covenant , the solemn league and covenant — upon this the trumpets sounded , the sheriff catched at the paper in his hand , and sir john robinson , who at first had acknowledged that he had nothing to do there , wishing the sheriff to see to it , yet found himself something to do now , furiously calling for the writers-books , and saying , he treats of rebellion , and you write it . hereupon six note-books were delivered up . the prisoner was very patient and composed under all these injuries and soundings of the trumpets several times in his face , only saying , 't was hard he might not be suffered to speak ; but sayes he , my usage from man is no harder than was my lord and masters ; and all that will live his life this day , must expect hard dealing from the worldly spirit — the trumpets sounded again , to hinder his being heard . then again robinson and two or three others , endeavoured to snatch the paper out of sir henry's hand , but he kept it for a while , now and then reading part of it ; afterwards , tearing it in pieces , he delivered it to a friend behind him , who was presently forced to deliver it to the sheriff . then they put their hands into his pockets for papers ( as was pretended ) which bred great confusion and dissatisfaction to the spectators , seeing a prisoner so strangely handled in his dying words . this was exceeding remarkable , in the midst of all this disorder , the prisoner himself was observed to be of the most constant , composed spirit and countenance , which he throughout so excellently manifested , that a royallist swore , he dyed like a prince . the prisoner , suspecting beforehand the disorder afore-mentioned , writ the main substance of what he intended to speak on the scaffold , in that paper they catched at , and which he tore in pieces , delivering it to a friend , from whom the sheriff had it as above-said ; the true copy whereof , was by the prisoner carefully committed to a safe hand before he came to the scaffold , which take as followeth . the work which i am at this time called unto , in this place , ( as upon a publick theater ) is , to die , and receive a discharge , once for all , out of prison ; to do that , which is but once to be done ; the doing or not doing of which well , and as becomes a christian , does much depend upon the life we have been taught of god to lead , before we come to this : they that live in the faith , do also die in it : faith is so far from leaving christians in this hour , that the work of it breaks forth then into its greatest power ; as if till then , it were not enough at freedom to do its office , that is , to look into the things that are unseen , with most steadfastness , certainty , and delight ; which is the great sweetner of death , and remover of its sting . give me leave therefore in a very few words , to give you an account of my life , and of the wonderful great grace and mercy of god , in bringing me home to himself , and revealing his son in me ; that by the knowledge of the only true god , and jesus christ whom he hath sent , i might ( even whilst here in the body ) be made partaker of eternal life , in the first fruits of it ; and at last sit down with christ in glory , at his right-hand . here i shall mention some remarkable passages and changes of my life ; in particular , how unsought for by my self , i was called to be a member of the long parliament ; what little advantage i had by it ; and by what steps i became satisfied with the cause i was engaged in , and did pursue the same . what the cause was , did first shew it self , in the first remonstrance of the house of commons . secondly , in the solemn league and covenant . thirdly , in the more refined pursuit of it by the commons house , in their actings single : with what result they were growing up into , which was in the breast of the house , and unknown ; or what the three proposals , mentioned in my charge , would have come to at last , i shall not need now to say ; but only , from all put together , to assert , that this cause which was owned by the parliament , was the cause of god , and for the promoting of the kingdom of his dear son , jesus christ ; wherein are comprehended our liberties and duties , both as men and as christians . and since it hath pleased god , who separated me from the womb to the knowledge and service of the gospel of his son , to separate me also to this hard and difficult service at this time , and to single me out to the defence and justification of this his cause , i could not consent by any words or actions of mine , that the innocent blood that hath been shed in the defence of it , throughout the whole war , ( the guilt and moral evil of which , must and does certainly lye somewhere ) did lye at my door , or at theirs that have been the faithful adherers to this cause . this is with such evidence upon my heart , that i am most freely and chearfully willing , to put the greatest seal to it i am capable , which is , the pouring out of my very blood in witness to it ; which is all i shall need to say in this place , and at this time , having spoken at large to it in my defence at my tryal , intending to have said more the last day , as what i thought was reasonable for arrest of the judgment , but i was not permitted then to speak it ; both which may with time and god's providence , come to publick view . and i must still assert , that i remain wholly unsatisfied , that the course of proceedings against me at my tryal were according to law , but that i was run upon and destroyed , contrary to right , and the liberties of magna charta , under the form only of justice : which i leave to god to decide , who is the judge of the whole world , and to clear my innocency ; whilst in the mean time , i beseech him to forgive them , and all that have had a hand in my death ; and that the lord in his great mercy will not lay it unto their charge . and i do account this lot of mine no other , than what is to be expected by those that are not of the world , but whom christ hath chosen out of it ; for the servant is not greater than his lord ; and if they have done this to the green tree , they will do it much more to the dry . however , i shall not altogether excuse my self . i know , that by many weaknesses and failers , i have given occasion enough of the ill usage i have met with from men , though , in the main , the lord knows the sincerity and integrity of my heart , whatever aspersions and reproaches i have or do lye under . i know also that god is just , in bringing this sentence and condemnation upon me , for my sins ; there is a body of sin and death in me , deserves this sentence ; and there is a similitude and likeness also , that , as a christian , god thinks me worthy to bear with my lord and head , in many circumstances in reference to these dealings i have met with , in the good i have been endeavouring for many years to be doing in these nations , and especially now at last , in being numbred amongst transgressors and made a publick sacrifice , through the wrath and contradictions of men , and in having finished my course , and fought the good fight of faith , and resisted in a way of suffering ( as you see ) even unto blood . this is but the needful preparation the lord hath been working in me , to the receiving of the crown of immortality , which he hath prepared for them that love him , the prospect whereof is so chearing , that through the joy ( in it ) that is set before the eyes of my faith , i can , through mercy , endure this cross , despise this shame , and am become more than conquerour , through christ that hath loved me . for my life , estate and all , is not so dear to me as my service to god , to his cause , to the kingdom of christ , and the future welfare of my country ; and i am taught according to the example , as well as that most christian saying of a noble person that lately died after this publick manner in scotland ; how much better is it to chuse affliction and the cross , than to sin or draw back from the service of the living god , into the wayes of apostacy and perdition . that noble person , whose memory i honour , was with my self at the beginning and making of the solemn league and covenant , the matter of which , and the holy ends therein contained , i fully assent unto , and have been as desirous to observe ; but the rigid way of prosecuting it , and the oppressing uniformity that hath bin endeavored by it . i never approved . this were sufficient to vindicate me from the false aspersions and calumnies which have been laid upon me , of jesuitism and popery , and almost what not , to make my name of ill savour with good men ; which dark mists do now dispel of themselves , or at least ought , and need no pains of mine in making an apology . for if any man seek a proof of christ in me , let him reade it in his action of my death , which will not cease to speak when i am gone ; and henceforth let no man trouble me , for i bear in my body the marks of the lord jesus . i shall not desire in this place to take up much time , but only , as my last words , leave this with you : that as the present storm we now lie under , and the dark clouds that yet hang over the reformed churches of christ , ( which are coming thicker and thicker for a season ) were not un-fore-seen by me for many years passed , ( as some writings of mine declare : ) so the coming of christ in these clouds , in order to a speedy and sudden revival of his cause , and spreading his kingdom over the face of the whole earth , is most clear to the eye of my faith , even that faith in which i dye , whereby the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdom of our lord , and of his christ . amen . even so , come , lord jesus . some passages of his prayer on the scaffold . the heaven is thy throne , o lord , and the earth is thy footstool , but to this man wilt thou look , even to him that is poor , and of a contrite spirit , and trembleth at thy word . thou , o lord , art the great god of heaven and earth , thou fillest all places with thy presence , art the judge of the whole world , and dost righteousness . we are poor unworthy sinful creatures , by nature children of wrath as well as others : we are wise to do evil , but to do good we have no knowledge . if to will be present with us , yet how to perform and go through with that which is good , and not be weary of well-doing , we find not . bring us , o lord , into the true mystical sabbath-state , that we may cease from our own works , rest from our labors , not think our own thoughts , find our own desire , or walk in the way of our own hearts , but become a meet habitation of thy spirit by the everlasting covenant , the place of thy rest . let the spirit of god and of glory , that is greater than he that is in the world , rest upon us , work in and by us mightily , to the pulling down of flesh and blood , the strong holds of sin and satan in our selves and others , causing us so to suffer under the fire-baptism thereof , as that we may cease from sin for ever , or from that fleshly , mutable , & temporary state of life and righteousness , which at best is liable to roul back into sin again , to be intangled , overcome , and finally triumphed over by the pollutions of this world . deliver us , o lord , from the evil one , deliver us from our selves , take us out of our own dispose , our own liberty and power , the freedom , the mutable holiness and righteousness of the sons of men , at its best , and bring us into the most glorious liberty , the most holy immutable and righteous state of the sons of god , a freedom to good only , and non at all to evil , attended and accompanied with a power in us , through thy spirit , of doing all things for the truth , and a disability brought upon us as to the doing of any thing against the truth , in the single power and freedom of our own spirit . then the prince of this world coming to us , will find nothing in us ; at least , no prevailing activity of self , nature or flesh , which at best , is capable to be made by him an ergin of opposition to the kingdom of christ , and our own true blessedness . thou hast laid on thy son the iniquities of us all ; by his st●ipes we are healed . we must all stand before the judgment-seat of christ , to give an account of what we have done in the body whether it be good or whether it be evil . he will bring every secret counsel to light ; things that are wrought in darkness , he maketh plain and evident . thine eyes , o lord , run to and fro through the whole earth . thine eyes do behold , thine eye-lids try the children of men . the wicked and him that loveth violence , thy soul hateth . but thou upholdest the poor and needy , him that is of a broken heart and of a contrite spirit . the humble and lowly thou wilt teach , the meek thou wilt guide in judgment ; thou wilt beautifie the meek with salvation . thou art the supream disposer of all the kingdoms of men , giving them to whomsoever thou wilt . whatever cross-blows thou sufferest to be given thy people for a season , thou orderest all , to thy own glory , and their true advantage . but thou hast a set time for sions deliverance , in which the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven , shall be given unto the best and choicest of men , the people of the saints of the most high , whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom . let the exceeding near approach of this , bear up the spirits of thy poor despised ones , in this day of extremity and suffering , from sinking and despondency . carry them through their suffering part , with a holy triumph , in thy chariots of salvation . how long , o lord , holy and true ? make hast to help the remnant of thy people . break the heavens and come down , touch the mountains of prey , the kingdoms of this evil world , and let them smoak . let the mouth of all iniquity be stopped . silence every one that stands up against thee . rebuke the debauched prophane spirits of men , that set themselves to work wickedness , running with greediness into all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness . they eat thy people as they eat bread . they are profound to make slaughter , skilful to destroy , though thou hast been the rebuker of them all . but , lord , be this dispensation of what continuance it will , for the serving of thy most gracious and wise designs , let the spirit and resolution of thy servants be steady and unchangeable , that whether they live , they may live to the lord , that died for them ; or whether they die , they may die to the lord , who lives for ever to make intercession for them , that they may glorifie thee with their bodies and spirits , whether by life or by death . thou knowest o lord , that in the faith of jesus , and for the truth as it is in jesus , thy servant desires to die , walking in the steps of our father abraham , and for righteousness and judgment , following the lord in all his wayes whithersoever he goes , worshipping the god of his believing fathers , abraham , isaac and jacob , in that way which men call heresie . in this faith , dear lord , i have lived , and in this faith and profession i die , as one that hath herein stood up for the testimony of jesus against all idolatry , superstition , prophaness and popery , or whatever is unsound or unfit to be brought before the throne of so great and glorious a majesty . 't is in this faith that thy servant dies . now set thy seal to it , and remove the reproaches and calumnies with which thy servant is reproached , for thou knowst his innocency . dear father , thou sentest us into this world , but this world is not our home , we are strangers and pilgrims in it , as all our fathers were . we have no abode here , but there is a house , not made with hands , eternal in the heavens , that when this tabernacle is dissolved , we may enter into . in our fathers house are many mansions ; oh! whatever the curses and condemnations of the law are , be thou near to us , and spread the righteousness of christ over us , and we shall be safe . blessed is he , whose transgressions are forgiven , and whose sins are covered . who wil speak , who will take on him to say any thing , or to plead with thee , upon any other terms but in the name and merits of the mighty redeemer , on whom our help is laid . we desire to lie low , to be abased and take shame & confusion of face to our selves , as that which properly belongs to us , that thou alone maist be exalted and advanced . 't is of meer grace , o lord , that thy servant hath now some sign of thy special salvation , even thy free-grace , o god , whereby thou dost accept him in thy son. lay him low and humble & abase his soul for his sins , and all his unworthinesses before thee . men cannot speak evil enough of our sins . in this perswasion , this abasement and humiliation , thy servant desires to die . and , dear lord , thou seest & knowst all things , and art able to witness to the truth & integrity of thy servant . when his blood is shed upon the block , let it have a voice afterward , that may speak his innocency , and strengthen the faith of thy servants in the truth . let it also serve for conviction to the worst of thy enemies , that they may say , surely the lord knows , and the lord owns his servant , as one that belongs to him . the desire of our soul is to hasten to thee , o god , to be dissolved , that we may be with christ . blessed be thy name , that this great strait that we were before in , is now determined ; that there is no longer abode for me in this mortal body . our great captain , the great general of our souls , did go in a way of affliction before us , to heaven . come , lord , declare thy will , that thy poor servant may manifest a readiness to come to thee ; prepare his heart , that in his access to thee may , he be brought down at thy feet , in shame & confusion for all the evil is so of hul ; but thou art his salvation . let thy servant speak something on the behalf of the nation wherein he hath lived ; lord , did we not exceed other nations in our day ? great things have been done by thee in the midst of us . oh , that thou wouldst look down in pity & compassion , and pardon the sins of this whole nation , and lay them not to their charge ; shew them what is thy good and acceptable will , and bring them into subjection thereunto . we humbly pray thee , o lord , look down with compassion upon this great & populous city , cleanse away the impurity , sinfulness and defilements thereof ; cause their souls to delight in thy word , that they may live . let a spirit of reformation and purity spring up in and amongst them with power ; make them willing to lay down all that is dear to them for thee , that thou mayst give them a crown of life ; that they may always desire & chuse affliction , and to be exposed to the worst condition & hardest circumstances , that can be brought upon them in this world , rather than sin against him that hath loved them and bought them with a price , that they might live to him in their bodies and in their spirits . we are assured thou knowest our suffering case and condition , how it is with us . we desire to give no just occasion of offence , nor to provoke any , but in meekness to forgive our enemies . thy servant that is now falling asleep , doth heartily desire of thee , that thou wouldest forgive them , and not lay this sin to their charge . before the stroke , he spake to this effect ; i bless the lord who hath accounted me worthy to suffer for his name . blessed be the lord that i have kept a conscience void of offence to this day . i bless the lord i have not disserted the righteous cause , for which i suffer . but his very last words of all at the block , were as followeth ; father , glorifie thy servant in the sight of men , that he may glorifie thee in the discharge of his duty to thee and to his country . it was observed , that no signs of inward fear appeared by any trembling or shaking of his hands , or any other parts of his body , all along on the scaffold . yea , an ancient traveller and curious observer of the demeanor of persons in such publick executions , did narrowly eye his countenance to the last breath , and his head immediatly after the separation ; he observed that his countenance did not in the least change : and whereas the heads of all he had before seen , did some way or other move after severing , which argued some reluctancy and unwillingness to that parting-blow ; the head of this sufferer lay perfectly still , immediately upon the separation : on which he said to this purpose , that his death was by the free consent and act of his mind ; which animadversion notably accords with what the sufferer himself had before expressed , in differencing a death by rational choice , from that by sickness , which is with constraint upon the body . he desired to be dissolved & to be with christ . the names of the grand jury , in the case of sir henry vane . sir john cropley of clarkenwel , london , knight and baronet . thomas taylor of st. martins in the fields , london , esq francis swift of st. gyles in the fields , esq. jonas morley of hammersmith , gent. george cooper of covent garden , gent. thomas constable of covent garden , gent. edward burrows of east-smithfield , gent. michael dibbs of the same , gent. edward gregory of st. gyles in the fields , gent. richard freeman of istington , gent. thomas pitcock of the same , gent. richard towers of clarkenwel , gent. robert vauce of paddington , gent. thomas benning of wilsdon , gent. francis child of acton , gent. isaac cotton of bow , gent. peter towers of mile-end , gent. thomas vffman of hammersmith , gent. matthew child of kensington , gent. bryan bonnaby of westminster , gent. george rouse of st. gyles in the fields , gent. twenty one in all . the names of the petty jury . sir william roberts . sir christopher abdy . john leech . daniel cole . john stone . daniel brown. henry carter . thomas chelsam . thomas pitts . thomas upman . andrew brent . william smith . judges of the king 's bench. chief justice foster . justice mallet . justice twisden . justice windham . the kings counsel against the prisoner ; ( no counsel being permited to speake one word in his behalf , to the matter or form of the indictment , or any thing else . ) sir geoffry palmer , the king's attorney general . sir henneage fynch , the king's sollicitor general . sir john glyn. sir john maynard . sir william wild. serjeant keeling . witnesses against sir henry vane . marsh , a papist , 't is said ; who witnessed what was accounted most dangerous against the prisoner , as to change of government . william dobbins . mathew lock . thomas pury . thomas wallis . john coot . the peoples cause stated . he in whom is the right of soveraign , and to give law , is either so of himself , or in the right of another , that may derive the same unto him ; which shews that there are two sorts of soveraings . a soveraign in the first sense , none is nor can be , but god , who is of himself most absolute . and he that is first of all others in the second sence , is the man christ jesus , to whom the power of soveraign , in the right of the father is committed , over all the works of gods hands . christ exercised the same in the capacity of david's root from before the beginning of the world. he owne ; himself thus to be , long before he became david's seed ; this his being in spirit , or hidden being , even as a creature , the first of all creatures in personal union with the word , david saw and acknowledged , psal . . . thus christ may be called god's lieutenant soveraign , or general vicegerent of his supremacy over all in heaven and in earth . he therefore is the true universal king and root of all soveraign and just governing power , whether in heaven or on earth . his soveraignty is unquestionable and unaccountable , because of the perfection of his person , carrying in it an aptitude and sufficiency to govern , without possibility of error or defect of any kind . soveraign and governing power doth necessarily relate to subjects , that are to be the ruled , and subjects capable of such government . therefore when god himself purposes within himself , to be supream legislator and governour , he doth withal purpose the being and creation of both worlds , as the subject matter of his kingdom . he propounds to govern his subjects by and with their own consent and good liking ; or , without and against it , in the way of his revenging justice ; governing by laws , clearly stating and ascertaining the duty or the offence , as also the rewards and penalties . herein just government consists , or the justice of government ; for he that rules over others , must be just ; and indeed should be seen to be so in all his commands : so seen , as to render the consciences of the ruled , and those whose duty it is to obey , inexcusable before god and before men , if they dissent or resist . inexcusable they are before god , because the matter commanded is the matter of god's law , & therefore just to be obeyed . they are also inexcusable before men , that which is required of them being generally acknowledged and affirmed ( by those in whom the common consent of the subjects is intrusted to that end ) to be just , and reasonable , and therefore to be obeyed . for the end of all government , being for the good and welfare , and not for the destruction of the ruled ; god who is the institutor of government , as he is pleased to ordain the office of governors , intrusting them with power to command the just and reasonable things , which his own law commands , that carry their own evidence to common reason and sense , at least , that do not evidently contradict it , so he grants a liberty to the subjects , or those that by him are put under the rule , to refuse all such commands as are contrary to his law , or to the judgement of common reason and sense , whose trial he allows , by way of assent or dissent , before the commands of the ruler shall be binding or put in execution ; and this in a co-ordinacy of power with just government , and as the due ballance thereof . the original impressions of just laws are in mans nature and very constitution of being . man hath the law in his mind , ( or the superior and intellectual part of him ) convincing and bringing that into obedience and subjection to the law of god , in christ himself . he hath also that which is a law in his members that are on the earth , ( or his earthly and sensual part ) whose power is co-ordinate with the other , but such , that if it be not gained into a harmony and conjunction with its head , the spirit or mind of man , hath ability to let and hinder his mind or ruling part , from performing and putting in execution , that which is good , just , fit , and to be acknowledged as the righteous dictates of the mind , which ought to be the ruling power , or law to the man. so in the outward government over man , the secondary or co-ordinate power , concurring with that which is the chief ruling power , is essential to just government ; and is acknowledged to be so , by the fundamental constitution of the government of england , as well as in the legal being and constitution of parliaments , whether that which hath been usual and ordinary , according to the common law ; or that which of late hath been extraordinary , by express statute , for the continuance of the parliament , . car. until dissolved by act of parliament . for together with the legal being which is given to regal power and the prerogative of the crown , there is the legal power and being reserved also unto that body , which is the peoples or kingdoms representative , who are the hands wherein that which is called power politick is seated , and are intrusted with giving or with holding the common consent of the whole nation , according to the best of their understandings , in all matters coming before them , and are to keep this liberty inviolate and entire , against all invasions or encroachments upon it , whatsoever . this second power in the very writ of summons for calling a parliament , is declared to be of that nature , that what the first doth without obtaining the consent and approbation of the second , in parliament , is not binding but ineffectual . and when the representative body of the kingdom , ( in and with whom , this power is intrusted , as the due and legal ballance and boundary to the regal power , set and fixed by the fundamental constitution ) is made a standing court , and of that continuance , as not to be dissolvable but by its own consent ; during such its continuance , it hath right to preserve it self from all violent and undue dissolution , and to maintain and defend its own just priviledges , a chief of which is , to binde or loose the people , in all matters good or hurtful to them , according to their best judgement and discretion . in the exercise of this their trust , they are indemnified by law , and no hurt ought to come unto them ; that governing power , which is originally in god , and slowes at first from him , as the sole and proper fountain thereof , is brought into exercise amongst men , upon a differing and distinct account . first , as it is a trust and right derived conditionally from god to his officers and ministers , ( which therefore may be lost ) who being called by him , and in the course of his providence , to the exercise of it , are to hold it of him the universal king , and to own themselves in the exercise thereof , as his vicegerents , to cut off by the sword of justice evil-doers ; and to be a protection and encouragement to them that do well . but because it is part of god's call of any person to this high trust , to bring him into the possession and free exercise thereof , by the common consent of the body of the people , where such soveraign power is set up , unless they have forfeited this liberty . therefore , secondly , god doth allow and confer by the very law of nature , upon the community or body of the people ( that are related to , and concerned in the right of government , placed over them ) the liberty by their common vote or suffrage duely given , to be assenters or dissenters thereunto , and to affirm and make stable , or disallow and render ineffectual , what shall apparently be found by them to be for the good or hurt of that society , whose welfare next under the justice of god's commands and his glory , is the supream law , and very end of all subordinate governing power . soveraign power then comes from god , as its proper root , but the restraint or enlargement of it , in its execution over such or such a body , is sounded in the common consent of that body . the office of chief ruler , or head over any state , common-wealth , or kingdom , hath the right of due obedience from the people inseparably annexed to it . it is an office , not onely of divine institution , but for the safety and protection of the whole body or community , and therefore justly and necessarily draws to it , and engages their subjection . this office of the soveraign , according to the laws , and fundamental constitutions of the government of england , is ministred by the king in a twofold capacity , as his will and personal command is in conjunction and agreement with his people in parliament , ( during the session thereof ) or as it is in conjunction and agreement with the law , the parliament not sitting . but his will and personal command single , in dis-junction and disagree ▪ from the parliament or the laws , hath not the force of a law , saith fortescue , and gives the reason of it , because this is a limitted monarchy , where the king's power ( as to the exercise of it ) is onely a power politick . the obedience then which from the subject is due to the king , and which they are sworn to perform by the oath of allegiance , is to him , in the ministry of the royal office , according to the reason and intent of the fundamental compact and constitution , and according to his own oath , which is to govern by law ; that is , to exercise his rule or royal commanding power , in conjunction and agreement with the parliament when sitting , and in conjunction , and agreement with the laws of the land , they not sitting . to exercise his power otherwise , is and hath been alwayes judged a grievance to the people , and a going against that which is the original right and just liberty of the community , who are not to be bound to such personal commands at will and pleasure , nor compelled to yield obedience thereunto . the contrary hereunto was the principle at bottom of the kings cause , which he endeavoured to uphold and maintain , in order to decline and lay aside the legal restraints as aforesaid , which the government of england by the fundamental constitution , is subjected unto , as to the exercise and ministery of the royal office. from the observation and experience which the pople of england had , and made many years together , by their representatives in parliament , of a desire in the king to shake off these legal restraints in the exercise of the regal power , and on their having tried the best wayes and means that occurred to their understandings , to prevent the same , and to secure to themselves the enjoyment of their just rights and liberty , they at last pitch'd upon the desiring from the king , the continuance of the sitting of the parliament called , november d , in such sort as is expressed in that act , . car. wherein it is provided , that it shall not be discontinued or dissolved , but by act of parliament . this was judged by them , the greatest security imaginable , for keeping the ministry of the royal office within its due bounds ; and for quieting the people in the enjoyment of their rights . but experience hath shewed , that this yet could not be done without a war , the worst and last of remedies . for although their continuance as the representative body of the kingdom , with the right to exercise the power and priviledges inherent in , and inseparable from that supream court and chief senate ( whereof the king is head , both making but one person or politick body in law ) yet they themselves , as well as the king , were bound by the fundamental constitution or compact , upon which the government was at first built ; containing the condition upon which the king accepted of the royal office , and on which the people granted to him the tribute of their obedience and due allegiance . this condition , ( as the lawes and experience declare ) is , that the king shall exercise his office of rule over them according to the laws , as hath been shewed , and as he and his people shall from time to time agree in common council in parliament , for that end assembled . in respect hereof , the laws so made , are called the concords or agreements passed between the king and the subject , in the d part of cooks institutes . these agreements then are the standard unto the kings rule and the peoples obedience , signifying the justice of his commands , and the dueness of their allegiance . but the case so happening , that this conjunction and agreement which ought to be found between the personal will of the king , and representative will of the kingdom , failing , and these two wills declaring themselves in contrariety and opposition , both of them becoming standing powers , co-ordinate and distinct parts of the supremacy , as the two channels wherein the supremacy is placed and appointed to run , as to its exercise , by the fundamental constitution ; hence sprang the war , each asserting and endeavouring to defend and maintain their own part and right , which ought not to be kept up in dis-junction and contrariety , but in unity and agreement each with other . these two parties with their adherents , in this case , may be according to the law , contrarients one towards another , as the law affords an example , in the preamble to cook 's th part of his institutes ( not properly traytors ) being co-ordinate powers , parts of the supremacy , that are the heads to each party ; and by consequence have a right of making a war , as their last appeal , if they cannot otherwise agree . being once entred thus into a state of war and actual enmity , they do as it were become two nations , and cease to be under the obligations they were in before , for during this state of war and enmity , the standing laws ( in a sort ) cease , and a new way of rule each party forms to himself and his adherents , as may best consist for each of their safeties and preservations . upon this dis-junction of the two wills , in the harmony and agreement whereof , the supremacy is placed , these following queries do naturally arise ; first . to which , or whether of these by law is the allegiance required as due ? is it to be yeilded to the personal will of the king single , in disjunction from the will of the representative body of the kingdom , or to the will of the people , in dis-junction from the will of the king ? or is it to the personal will of the king , in conjunction with the laws , though in opposition and contrariety to the will of the kingdoms representative in parliament assembled ? or is it to the will of the kingdomes representative , in conjunction with the laws , though in opposition to the personal will of the king ? the second querie is , in whose judgement in this case are the people by law to acquiesce , as to the declaring with whom the laws are ? whether the personal judgement of the king single , or the vote of the senate , that is , the kingdoms representative body ? the third querie is , with whom will the laws be found to go in this case , so rare , unusual , and never happening before , and who is the proper and competent judge ? also , whether the laws be not perfectly silent , as never supposing such a case possible to happen , by reason that the power used by the one for dissolving the other , never before suffered the opposition to rise so high ? the fourth querie is , whether he , in this case , that keeps his station and place of trust , wherein god and the law did set him , with care to demean himself according to the best of his vnderstanding , agreeably to the law and customes of parliament , and pursuant to their votes and directions , ( so long as they sit and affirm themselves to be a parliament ) and uses his best endeavours in the exercise of that publick trust , that no detriment in the general come unto the common-wealth by the failer of justice , and the necessary protection due from government , without any designing or intending the subversion of the constitution , but onely the securing more fully the peoples liberties and just rights , from all future invasions and oppressions , be not so far from deserving to be judged criminal in respect of any law of god or man , that he ought rather to be affirmed one that hath done his duty , even the next best that was left to him , or possible for him to do , in such a dark stormy season , and such difficult circumstances ? as to the right of the cause it self , it ariseth out of the matter of fact that hath happened , and by the just and wise providence of god , hath been suffered to state it self , in the contest between the personal will and declared pleasure of the king , on the one hand , and the publick will or vote of the people in parliament , on the other , declaring it self either in orders or ordinances of both houses , or in the single act of the house of commons , asserting it self a parliament , upon the grounds of the act , car. providing against its dissolution . this will appear with the more evidence and certainty , by considering wherein either part had a wrong cause , or did or might do that which was not their duty ; taking the measure of their duty from what as well the king as the peoples representative are obliged unto , by the fundamental constitution of the government , which binds them in each of their capacities and distinct exercises of their trust , to intend and pursue the true good and welfare of the whole body or community as their end. this ( in effect ) is to detain the people in obedience and subjection to the law of god , and to guide them in the wayes of righteousness unto god's well-pleasing : and to avoid falling out or disagreeing about the way or means leading to that end. hence that party which in his or their actings was at the greatest distance from , or opposition unto this end , and wilfully and unnecessarily disagreed and divided from the other , in the ways and means that were most likely to attain this end ; they were assuredly in the fault , and had a wrong cause to mannage , under what ever name of face of authority it was headed and upheld . and such a wrong cause was capable of being espoused and mannaged under the face of authority , as might be pretended unto by either part . for as the king ( insisting upon his prerogative , and the binding force which his personal will and pleasure ought to have , though in distinction from , and opposition to his parliament ) might depart from the end of government , answerable to his trust , and yet urge his right to be obeyed ; so the publick will of the people , exercised in and by the vote of their representative in parliament , asserting it self to be of a binding force also , and to have the place of a law , though in distinction from the king and laws also , ( as saith the king ) whatever otherwise by them is pretended , might also depart from the true end of government , answerable to their trust , and yet insist upon their right to be obeyed and submitted unto ; and having power in their hands , might unduely go about also to compel obedience . it is not lawful either for king or parliament to urge authority and compel obedience as of right in any such cases , where ( according to the law of nature ) the people are at liberty , and ought to have a freedom from yeelding obedience , as they are and ought to have when ever any would compel them to disobey god , or to do things that evidently in the eye of reason and common sense , are to their hurt and destruction . such things nature forbids the doing of , having for that very purpose , armed man with the defensive weapon of refusing to consent and obey , as that priviledge , whereby man is distinguished from a beast ; which , when he is deprived of , he is made a beast , and brought into a state of perfect servitude and bondage . such a state of servitude and bondage may by god's just judgement , be inflicted upon man for sin and the abuse of his liberty , when by god restored . the liberty which man was at first created in , is that priviledge and right which is allowed to him by the law of nature , of not being compelled under any pretence whatsoever to sin against god , or to go against the true good and welfare of his own being ; that is to say , of his inward or outward man , but in both these cases , to have and to use his just liberty , to dissent and refuse to obey . for this every man hath that in himself , which by god is made a proper and competent judge . for , as to all sin against god , and the righteousness of his law , the light of conscience , that is to say the work of the law , in and upon the mind or inward sense , and in conjunction with it , doth lighten every one that cometh into the world , accusing or excusing , if it be but hearkened unto , and kept awake . and for all such actings , as tend to the ruine and destruction of man , in his outward and bodily concerns , and as he is the object of magistratical power and jurisdiction , every man hath a judgement of common sense , or a way of discerning and being sensible thereof , common to bruit beasts , that take in their knowledge by the door of their senses , but is much heightned and enobled in man , by the personal union it is taken into , with his intellectual part , and intuitive way of discerning things , through the inward reflectings of the mind , compared with the law of god. this inferiour judgement in man , when it is conjoyned with , and confirmed by the judgement of his superiour part , is that which we call rational , or the dictates of right reason , that man hath a natural right to adhere unto , as the ordinary certain rule , which is given him by god to walk by , and against which he ought not to be compelled , or be forced to depart from it , by the meer will and power of another , without better evidence ; that is , a higher , a greater , or more certain way of discerning . this therefore in scripture is called , man's judgement , or man's day , in distinction from the lord's judgement , and the lord's day . and this is that , in every individual man , which in the collective body of the people , and meeting of head and members in parliament , is called , the supream authority , and is the publick reason and will of the whole kingdon ; the going against which , is , in nature as well as by the law of nations , an offence of the highest rank , amongst men . for it must be presumed , that there is more of the wisdom and will of god in that publick suffrage of the whole nation , than of any private person or lesser collective body , whatsoever , not better quallified and principled . for man is made in god's image , or in a likeness , in judgement and will , unto god himself , according to the measure that in his nature he is proportioned and made capable to be the receiver and bearer thereof . therefore it is , that the resisting and opposing either of that judgement of will , which is in it self supream , and the law to all others , ( or which bears so much proportion and likeness to the supream will , as is possible for a society and community of men agreeing together for that end , to contrive and set up for an administration thereof unto them ) is against the duty of any member of that society , as well as it is against the duty of the body of the whole society , to oppose its judgement and will to that of the supream law-giver , their highest soveraign , god himself . the highest judgement and will , set up by god , for angels and men in their particular beings , to hold proportion with , and bear conformity unto , ( in the capacity of ruled , in relation to their chief ruler ) sinnes forth in the person of christ , the engrafted word . and when by the agreement or common consent of a nation or state , there is such a constitution and form of administration pitched upon , as in a standing and ordinary way , may derive and conveigh the nearest and greatest likeness in humane laws , or acts of such a constitution , unto the judgement and will of the supream legislator , as the rule and declared duty for every one in that society to observe ; it is thereby , that government , or supream power comes to receive being in a nation or state , and is brought into exercise according to god's ordinance , and divine institution . so then , it is not so much the form of the administration , as the thing administred , wherein the good or evil of government doth consist ; that is to say , a greater likeness or unlikeness unto judgement and will of the highest being , in all the acts or laws , flowing from the fundamental constitution of the government . hence it is , that common consent , lawfully and rightfully given by the body of a nation , and intrusted with delegates of their own free choice , to be exercised by them , as their representatives , ( as well for the welfare and good of the body that trusts them , as to the honour and well-pleasing of god the supream legislator ) is the principle and means , warranted by the law of nature and nations , to give constitution and admission to the exercise of government , and supream authority , over them and amongst them : agreeable hereunto , we are to suppose , that our ancestors in this kingdom did proceed , when they constituted the government thereof , in that form of administration , which hath been derived to us , in the course and channel of our customes and laws ; amongst which , the law and customes in and of the parliaments , are to be accounted as chief . for , hereby first , the directive or legislative power ( having the right to state and give the rule for the governors duty , and the subjects obedience ) is continued in our laws , which as well the king as people are under the observation of ; witness the coronation oath , and the oath of allegiance . secondly , the coercive or executive power is placed in one person , under the name and style of a king , to be put forth not by his own , single , personal command , but by the signification of his will and pleasure , as the will of the whole state , in and by his courts of justice , and stated publick counsels and judicatures , agreed on for that purpose , between him and his people , in their parliamentary assemblies . the will of the whole state , thus signified , the law it self prefers before the personal will of the king , in distinction from the law , and makes the one binding , the other not . so that the publick will of the state , ( signified and declared by the publick suffrage and vote of the people or kingdom in parliament assembled ) is a legal and warrantable ground for the subjects obedience , in the things commanded by it , for the good and welfare of the whole body , according to the best understanding of such their representative body , by it put forth , during the time of its sitting . the body with whom the delegated vote and publick suffrage of the whole nation is intrusted , being once assembled , with power not to be dissolved but by their own consent , in that capacity the highest vote and trust ( that can be ) is exercised , and this by authority of parliament , unto ex officio , or by way of office are the keepers of the liberties of england , or of the people , by the said authority , for which they are accountable if they do not faithfully discharge that their duty . this office of keeping the liberty , which by the law of god and nature is due to the community or whole body of the people , is , by way of trust , committed by themselves to their own delegates , and in effect amounts unto this . . that they may of right keep out and refuse any to exercise rule and command over them , except god himself , who is the supream and universal king and governour ; or , such as shall agree in their actings , to bear his image , ( which is , to be just ) and shew for the warrant of their exercise of soveraignty , both a likeness in judgement and will , unto him , who is wisdom and righteousness it self ; and the approbation and common consent of the whole body , rationally reposing that trust in them , from what is with visible and apparent characters manifest to them , of an aptness and sufficiency in them , to give forth such publick acts of government , that may bear the stamp of god's impression upon them in the judgements they do and execute ; especially , being therein helped with a national counsel of the peoples own choosing from time to time . . they may of right , keep , hold , and restrain him or them , with whom the coercive or executive power is intrusted , unto a punctual performance of duty , according to the fundamental constitution , the oath of the ruler , and the laws of the land. and if they shall refuse to be so held and restrained by the humble desires , advice and common consent in parliament , and the peoples delegates be invaded and attempted upon by force , to deter them from the faithful discharge of this their duty ; they may , in asserting their right , and in a way of their own just defence , raise armes , put the issue upon battel , and appeal unto god. . such appeal answered , and the issue decided by battel , the peoples delegates still sitting , and keeping together in their collective body , may of right , and according to reason refuse the re-admission or new-admission of the exercise of the former rulers , or any new rulers again over the whole body , till there be received satisfaction for the former wrongs done , the expence and hazzard of the war , and security for the time to come , that the like be not committed again . until this be obtained , they are bound in duty , in such manner as they judge most fit , to provide for the present government of the whole body , that the common-weal receive no detriment . . in this which is the proper office of the peoples delegates , and concerns the keeping and defending the liberty and right of the whole people and nation , they may and ought , ( during their sitting ) to exercise their own proper power and authority ( the exigents of the kingdom requiring it ) although the other two estates joyntly instructed with them , ( in the exercise of the legislative authority ) should desert their station , or otherwise sail in the execution of their trusts ; yea , or though many or most of their own members ( so long as a lawful quorum remains ) shall either voluntarily withdraw from them , or , for just cause become excluded . in this discharge of their trust , for the common welfare and safety of the whole , their actings ( though extraordinary and contrarient to the right of the other two ) cannot be treasonable or criminal , ( though they may be tortious , and erroneous ) seeing they are equals and co-ordinate , in the exercise of the legislative power , and have the right of their own proper trust and office to discharge and defend , though their fellow trustees should fail in theirs . nor can , nor ought the people , as adherents to their own delegates and representatives , to be reputed criminal , or blame ▪ worthy , by the law. in the exercise of one and the same legislative power ( according to the fundamental constitution of the government of england ) there are three distinct publick votes , allowed for assent or discent , in all matters coming before them ; the agreement of which is essential and necessary to the passing of a law : the personal vote of the king ; the personal votes of the lords in a house or distinct body ; and the delegated vote and suffrage of the whole people , in their representative body , or the house of commons . unto each of these , appertains a distinct office and priviledge , proper to them . . the regal office , and the prerogative thereof to the king. . the judicial office , to the lords , as the highest judicature and court of justice under the king , for the exercising coercive power , and punishing of malefactors . . the office of the keepers of the liberties and rights of the people , as they are the whole nation , incorporated under one head , by their own free and common consent . the regal office is the fountain of all coercive and executive power , pursuant to the rule , set to the same by law , or , the agreement of the three estates in parliament . the rule which is set , is that of immutable just and right , according to which , penalties are applicable , and become due , and is first stated and ascertained , in the declared law of god , which is the signification or making known by some sign , the will of the supream legislator , proceeding from a perfect judgement and understanding , that is without all error or defect . the will that flowes from such a judgement , is in its nature legislative , and binding , and of right to be obeyed for its own sake , and the perfection it carries in it , and with it , in all its actings . this will is declared by word , or works , or both . by word we are to understand , either the immediate breath and spirit of gods mouth or mind , or the inspiration of the almighty , ministred by the holy ghost , in and by some creature , as his vessel and instrument , through which the holy scriptures of the old and new testament were composed . by works that declare god's will , we are to understand the whole book of the creature , but more eminently and especially , the particular beings and natures of angels and men , who bear the name and likeness of god in and upon their judgements and their wills ; their directing power , and their executive power of mind , which are essential to their being , life , and motion . when these direct and execute , in conjunction and harmony with god's judgement and will , made known in his law , they do that which is right ; and by adhering and conforming themselves unto this their certain and unerring guide , do become guides and rulers unto others , and are the objects of right choice , where rulers are wanting in church or state. the rule then to all action of angels or men , is that of moral or immutable just and right , which is stated and declared in the will and law of god. the first and highest imitation of this rule , is the creature-being in the person of christ . the next is the bride the lambs wife . the next is the innumerable society of the holy angels . the next is the company of just men , fixed in their natural obedience and duty , through faith , manifesting it self not onely in their spirits , but in their outward man , redeemed even in this world , from the body of corruption , as far as is here attainable . the power which is directive , and states and ascertains the morallity of the rule for obedience , is in the law of god. but the original , whence all just executive power arises , which is magistratical and coercive , is from the will or free gift of the people , who may either keep the power in themselves , or give up their subjection into the hands and will of another , as their leader and guide , if they shall judge that thereby they shall better answer the end of government , to wit , the welfare and safety of the whole , then if they still kept the power in themselves . and when they part with it , they may do it conditionally or absolutely ; and whilst they keep it , they are bound to the right use of it . in this liberty , every man is created , and it is the priviledge and just right which is granted unto man by the supream law-giver , even by the law of nature , under which man was made . god himself leaves man to the free exercise of this his liberty , when he tenders to him his safety and immutability , upon the well or ill use of this his liberty , allowing him the choice , either to be his own guide and self-ruler , in the ability communicated to him , to know and execute gods will , and so to keep the liberty he is possessed of , in giving away his subjection or not ; or else upon god's call and promise , to give up himself in way of subjection to god , as his guide and ruler , either absolutely or conditionally . to himself he expects absolute subjection ; to all subordinate rulers , conditional . while mans subjection is his own , and in his own keeping , unbestowed and ungiven out of himself , he is not , nor cannot be accountable by way of crime or offence , against his ruler and soveraign , but may do with his own what he please ; but still at his peril , if he use not this his liberty as he should , to the end for which it is given him , which is by voluntary and entire resignation to become an obedient subject unto him who is the supream law-giver , and rightful king , without possibility of change or defection . unto this right and the lawful exercise and possession of , it this nation did arive by the good providence and gift of god , in calling and assembling the parliament , november d. . and then continuing their session by an express act , . car. with power not to be dissolved but by their own consent ; which was not so much the introducing of a new law , as declaratory of what was law before , according to man's natural right , in which he was created , and of which he was possessed by god , the soveraign giver of all things . but the passing that said act of parliament alone , was not that which restored the nation to their original right , and just natural liberty ; but onely put them in the capacity and possibility of it . that which wanted to make out to the nation a clearness in having and obtaining this their right , was the obligation they had put upon themselves and their posterities to their present soveraign and his authority , which in justice and by the oathes of allegiance they were solemnly bound to , in the sight of god as well as of man. and therefore , unless by the abuse of that office of trust , ( to that degree , as on his part , to break the fundamental compact and constitution of government ) they could not be set free nor restored to their original right and first liberty : especially if together with such breach of trust , both parties appeal to god , and put it upon the issue of battel , and god give the decision ; and in consequence thereof , that original right be asserted , and possession thereof had and held for some years , and then not rightfully lost , but treacherously betrayed and given up by those in whom no power was rightfully placed , to give up the subjection of the nation again unto any , whatsoever . unto which is to be added , that how and when the dissolution of the said parliament , ( according to law ) hath been made , is yet unascertained , and not particularly declared : by reason whereof , and by what hath been before shewed , the state of the case on the subjects part , is much altered , as to the matter of right , and the usurpation is now on the other hand , there being , ( as is well known ) two sorts of usurpers ; either such , as having no right of consent at all unto the rule they exercise over the subject ; or such , who under pretence of a right and title , do claim not by consent , but by conquest and power , or else hold themselves not obliged to the fundamental compact and constitution of government , but gain unduely from the subject , ( by advantages taken through deceit and violence ) that which is not their own by law. for a rational man to give up his reason and will unto the judgement and will of another , ( without which , no outward coercive power can be ) whose judgement and will is not perfectly and unchangeably good and right , is unwise , and unsafe , and by the law of nature , forbidden . and therefore all such gift , made by rational men , must be conditional , either implied , or explicite , to be followers of their rulers , so far as they are followers of that good and right , which is contained in the law of the supream law-giver , and no further ; reserving to themselves , ( in case of such defection and declining of the rulers actings from the rule ) their primitive and original freedom , to resort unto , that so they may in such case , be as they were before they gave away their subjection unto the will of another ; and reserving also the power to have this judged by a meet and competent judge , which is the reason of the king and kingdom , declared by their representatives in parliament ; that is to say , the delegates of the people in the house of commons assembled , and the commissioners on the kings behalf , by his own letters patents , in the house of peers ; which two concurring do very far bind the king , if not wholly . and when these cannot agree , but break one from another , the commons in parliament assembled , are ex officio , the keepers of the liberties of the nation , and righteous possessors and defendors of it , against all usurpers and usurpations whatsoever , by the laws of england . the valley of jehoshaphat , considered and opened , by comparing . chron. . with joel . it was the saying of austine ; nothing falls under our senses , or happens in this visible world , but is either commanded or permitted from the invisible and unintelligible court and pallace of the highest emperor and universal king , who is the chief over all the kings of the earth . for although he hath both commanded and permitted a subordinate external government over men , administred by man , for the upholding of justice in humane societies , and for the peace , welfare , and safety of men that are made in gods image ; yet , he hath not so entirely put the rule of the whole earth out of his own hands , but that in cases of eminent injustice and oppression ( committed in provinces , states and kingdomes , contrary to his lawes , to their own , and the very end of magistracy , which is , the conservation of the peoples just rights and liberties ) he that is higher than the highest amongst men , doth regard , and will shew by some extraordinary interposition of his , that there are higher than they . such a seasonable and signal appearance of god , for the succor and relief of his people , in their greatest straits and exigencies , ( when they have no might , visible power , or armed force , to undertake the great company and multitude that comes against them , nor know what to do , save onely to have their eyes towards him ) is called in scripture , the day of the lord's judgement . then the battel and cause of the quarrel , will appear to be not so much theirs , as the lord's : and the frame of their heart will be humble before the lord , believing in the lord , and believing his prophets , for their good success and establishment . this dispensation is very lively described under the type , and by the name of the valley of jehoshaphat , as to the season and place wherein god will give forth a signal appearance of himself in judgement , on the behalf of his people , for a final decision of the controversie between them and their enemies . it litterally and typically fell out thus , as is at large recorded , chron. . by way of allusion to this , and upon occasion of the like , yea , and far greater extreamities , which god's people in the last dayes , are to be brought into , is that prophesie , joel . for a like , yea , a far greater and more signal appearance of god for their deliverance and rescue , in order to a final decision of the controversie , between his people and the inhabitants of the earth , by his own judgement . this is there called , the valley of jehoshaphat , in which the lord will sit to judge all his enemies round about . in this battel and great decision of his peoples controversie , he will cause his mighty ones to come down from heaven , to put in their sickle as reapers in this vintage and harvest , when the wickedness is great . unto this , revel . . , . refers , which doth plainly evidence , that this grand decision is to fall out in the very last of times , and probably , is that , which will make way to the rising of the witnesses , and will be accompanied with that earthquake , in which shall be slain , of men seven thousand , and the tenth part of the city will thereupon fall , rev. . it is expressed , joel . that in this day of the lord , wherein he will be near , in the valley of decision , the heavens and the earth shall shake , by the lords own roaring out of sion ; and he himself will be the harbour , hope and strength of his people . the sun and moon of earthly churches and thrones of judicature , that contest with them , shall be darkened , and the stars , ( even the choicest and most illuminated gifted pastors & leaders , in the earthly jerusalem churches , with their most refined forms of worship , resisting the power of true spiritual godliness ) shall withdraw their shining . even their holy flesh will pass off from them and consume away upon their spiritual lewdness , and confident opposing the faith of gods elect , jer. . . their very eyes will consume away in their holes , with which they say , we see ▪ and for which , christ tells the pharisees , in like case , that therefore ther sin remaineth . ( john . . ) or , there remaineth no more benefit from christ's sacrifice , for their sin ; and therefore onely a fearful looking for of the fiery and devouring indignation , heb. . , . here 's that , the great confidence and boast of many professing churches and eminent pastors in the earthly jerusalem fabrick , or house on the sand , will come to , ezek. . and mat. . their very eyes , their high enlightenings and excellent spiritual gifts , their supernatural or infused humane learning , that 's admitted only as an adorning and accomplishment of the natural man , ( unaccompanied with that fire-baptisme , that 's performed by the unspeakable gift of the spirit it self , for the transforming of the natural man into spiritual ) even these eyes becoming evil , ( mat. . . ) and this light , opposing and preferring it self to the more excellent discerning and marvellous light in spiritual believers , are turned by the just judgement of god , into the greatest and most fatal blindness and darkness of all . their tongues also , though the tongues of men and angels , for excellency and dexterity of expressing what they see , with the forementioned eyes , will consume away in their mouth , ( zech. . . ) and leave them exposed to become , and accordingly be dealt with , as meer sounding brass and tinckling cymbals , ( cor. . . and . . ) giving no certain sound , and right warning to the battels of the lord , the good sight of faith. this comes to pass through their confidence in those attainments , which may be , and oft are turned into an idol of jealousie , and spiritual whoredom , ezek. . , . all these considerations of church and state , put together , afford great ground of enquiry , as to the condition of the times in which we live , how far the face which they bear , ( and which god hath put upon them , in the course of his providences , for some years now past ) doth speak or signifie the near approach of any such extraordinary and signal appearance or day of gods judgement , for the decision of his own or his peoples quarrel and controversie with the prophane heathen that are round about them , waiting for an advantage , utterly and universally to remove and root them out from off the face of the whole earth ? that which hath been acted upon the theater of these nations , amongst us , in the true state of our controversie , seems to be reducible to this following querie ; whether the representative body of the kingdom of england , in parliament assembled , and in their supream power and trust made indissolvable , unless by their own consent and free vote , and this by particular and express statute , have not had a just and righteous cause ? a quarrel more god's , than their own ? . it may appear they had ; first , from the ground of their undertaking the war ; was it not in their own and the kingdoms just and necessary defence , and for the maintaining of the publick rights and liberties of both ? . secondly , was it not undertaken upon mutual appeals of both parties to god , desiring him to judge between them , to give the decision and issue by the law of war , ( when no other law could be heard ) as the definitive sentence in this controversie , from the court of heaven ? . thirdly , pursuant to such decision , did they not recover and repossess the kingdoms original and primitive freedom ? did they not endeavour to conserve and secure it , as due to them by the law of god and of nature ? for man was made in god's image , and all adams posterity are properly one universal kingdom on earth , under the rule and government of the son of god , both as creator and redeemer . by virtue of this original and primitive freedom so recovered , they were at their own choice , whether to remain in , and retain this their true freedom ( unresigned and unsubjected to the will of any man ) under the rule of the son of god and his lawes , or else to set up a king or any other form of government over them , after the manner of other nations . in this latter case , it is acknowledged , that when a common-wealth or people , do choose their first king , upon condition to obey him and his successors , ruling justly ; they ought to remain subject to him , according to the law , and tenor of the fundamental compact with him , on whom they have transferred their authority . no jurisdiction remaineth in them ( after that free and voluntary act of theirs ) either to judge the realm , or determine who is the true successor , otherwise than is by them reserved and stipulated , by their fundamental laws and constitutions of government . and though the righteousness of this cause ( contained in the forementioned particulars ) be such , as carries in it its own evidence ; yet , as ( as things have fallen out ) it is come to be oppressed and buried in the grave of malefactors ; in the room of which , a contrary judgement and way , is visibly owned , upheld , and intended to be prosecuted to the utmost , for its own fast-rooting and establishment ; and this , by the common consent and association of multitudes . what then remaines for the recovery and restitution of that good old cause and way , but such a seasonable and signal appearance of god , ( as aforesaid ) in the valley of jehoshaphat ? what but the taking things immediately into his own hands , for administration of judgement , and giving the last and final decision ? especially , since what was foretold by daniel , is remarkably accomplished amongst us , to wit , that the visible power of gods people should be broken and scattered , so as that they should have no might remaining in and with them , to go against the multitudes , that design and resolve their ruine . there is not any remedy left to them , wherein they may expect success , but from such a signal day of the lord 's immediate appearance in judgement on their behalf . for their sakes therefore , o lord , return thou on high , ( psal . . . ) take thy throne of judicature over men , from which thou hast seemed to have departed , and execute that righteous judgement , which thou hast seemed for a season to have suspended , upon wise and holy ends best known to thy self . in such a dark and gloomy day , those that truely fear the lord , are directed and required by him , not to fear or be dismayed , because he will be with them . they are encouraged in the way of faith onely , to expect this deliverance ; even to stand still , as having no need to fight in this battel , but onely to see the salvation of the lord , through believing . antient foundations , when once become destructive to those very ends for which they were first ordained , and prove hinderances , to the good and enjoyment of humane societies , to the true worship of god , and the safety of the people , are for their sakes , and upon the same reasons to be altered , for which they were first laid . in the way of god's justice they may be shaken and removed , in order to accomplish the counsels of his will , upon such a state , nation , or kingdom , in order to his introducing a righteous government , of his own framing . this may have been the cause of our wandrings as it were in a wilderness , and of god's bringing us back again into egypt , after our near approach to the land of rest ; that we have no better known , and had no more care to prosecute , what he principally intended in and by all our changes and removes , in the course of his providence . yea we have added this also , to the rest of our sins , that we have improved the gifts and deliverances that god bestowed upon us , another way , and to another end than was by him intended , as well as providentially intimated , by that holy decree of his , in the decision , declared at the trial in his martial court , with points of swords . here the great controversie that had been depending many ages between rulers and the ruled , ( as to the claimes of the one in point of prerogative ; and of the other in their spiritual and temporal freedoms ) was after many heats & colds , many skirmishings and battels , at last decided by the sword. this is a way of tryal allowed by the known common law of england , and the law in force throughout all nations . by this , the verdict is given forth from a court of such a nature , as from whence there is no further appeal ; especially since after the tryal past , quiet possesion was given to the conquerors , and continued some years . upon this , reason and gratitude to god , obliged us to such a prosecution as might answer the true end of government ; and in especial after that manner , as might be most to god's well-pleasing . the powerful being which by success of armes , as given to the peoples representative body in parliament , did communicate to it essentiallity , according to the nature of that being , for which it was ordained . for that being , with power of continuing together at their own pleasure , were as the soul and body , unseperated , and they might have performed things necessary at present , for the safety and preservation of the body they represented . they might have been a good help to settle righteous government , in a constitution most acceptable to god , and beneficial to the governed , on the foundation of god's institution , and the peoples ordination , in consent together , laid by the power of god and the peoples own swords , in the hands of their faithful trustees . it would imply a high contempt of god and his dispensations , so signal amongst us , to communicate the benefit of them to his opposers . the right of choosing and being chosen into places of trust in the government , was returned by the law of the sword ( which is paramount to all humane laws ) into its primitive exercise , which is warranted by the law of god and of nature . by that law the most famous monarchies of the world in all ages were first constituted and setled ; and by it god decided our cause , looking for an event and fruit answerable to the benefit by him given ; even such a government , as god would have given us the pattern of ( had we sought it , as was our duty ) whereby justice and mercy should have been daily administred according to his will , to the bringing on the new heavens and new earth , wherein righteousness might dwell . the vessel of this common-wealth now weather-heaten and torn , seems to be more in danger , than that wherein jonah would have sled to tarsus : for though we have cast forth a great part of our goods to secure it , this has done us but small good . that ship had but one delinquint aboard , which occasioned the storm ; and his being thrown into the sea , brought immediate safety . they had also many skilful seamen to guide it , but all our pilots are cast over-board , and none left in appearance , but guilty passengers . nay , admit with jonah , both the common-wealth and cause be brought into most desperate exigents and extreamities , from whence there is no more appearing redemption for them , then such as they have , that go down quick into the grave and belly of the whale ; yet they may be preserved , even by that which naturally of it self is irrecoverably destructive to them , and be employed again in service by him against whom they have been so ungratefully rebellious after former great deliverances . so infinite are god's mercies , yea , so exceeding merciful are the severest of his judgements and dispensations towards his people . thus may both people and army be deprived of their power , and another party let in to plague and root out from amongst us , such as are more wicked than themselves , and so make room for a more righteous generation , which will begin all things anew . by the course of things acted amongst us , god's sentence on our behalf is made void , and that seems given away for ever , which was recovered by the sword. our troubles are onely prorogued . no faith or contract is thought meet to be kept with rebels and hereticks , when by acquired power it may be broken . 't was the great solly and self-flattery of some , to think it would be otherwise . it is most certainly true , that no time or prescription , is a just bar to god's and the peoples right . to murmure against god's verdict , and resist his doom , so solemnly given and executed amongst us , in the sight and concurring acknowledgement of the nations round about , is to become adversaries to god , and to betray our countrey . if god then do think fit to permit such a dispensation to pass upon us , it is for the punishment of our sins , and for a plague to those that are the actors therein ; to bring more swift exemplary vengeance upon them . such as have discharged a good conscience in what may most offend the higher powers , are not to fear , though they be admitted to the exercise of their rule , with an unrestrained power , and revengeful mind . though from that mountain , the storm that comes , will be very terrible , yet some are safest in storms , as experience shews . yea best therein by gods mercies , when their greatest enemies think most irrecoverably to undo them . our late condition held much resemblance with that of the jewes , and we deserve as well to be rejected as they were . if christ were in the flesh amongst us , as he was with them , we are as likely to prefer theeves and murtherers before him , and crucifie him . the present necessity in a righteous cause is to be submitted to , and we are not to be discouraged by the danger , which to some seems threatned us , from former or present laws . for no man that acts for common safety , when the sword hath absolute power , and shall also command it , can justly be questioned afterwards for acting contrary to some former laws , which could be binding no longer then whilst the civil sword had soveraignty . what people under heaven have had more experiments of god's timely assistance in all their extreamities , then english-men , as well with respect to times past , as within our remembrance ? are the like mercies recorded of any nation ? in their times of greatest confusion they were preserved . they were a living active body without a head : a bush burning in the flames of a civil war , yet not consumed : a people when without a government , not embrued in one anothers blood. a wonder to all neighbours round about , and many signal changes brought about without blood , which indubitably evidences that god is in the bush : and would gather us together as chickens under a hen , to be brooded by him , if we were not most stubbornly hardened . our sins have been the cause , that our counsels , our forces , our wit , our conquests , and our selves have been destructive to our selves , to each other , and to a happy advancement towards our long expected and desired settlement . until these sins of ours be repented truly and throughly , all the wisdom and power upon earth shall not avail us , but every day , every attempt , will encrease our troubles , until there be a final extirpation of all that hinders god's work ; when this once is , nothing shall harm us , god being a sure refuge against all evils , if we reconcile our selves to him by faith and repentance . then , even those things that are most mischievous in their own natures , shall be made our advantage and security . the peoples cause whom god after trial hath declared free , is a righteous one , though not so prudently and righteously managed as it might and ought to have been . god's doom therefore is justly executed upon us , with what intent and jugglings soever it was prosecuted by men . man's corruption makes him more firmly to adhere to that which is good : in which case , it is not many times , virtue so much as necessity that keeps men constant ; having no other means of safety and subsistance for the most part . the goodness of any cause is not meerly to be judged by the events , whether visibly prosperous or unprosperous , but by the righteousness of its principles : nor is our faith and patience to fail under the many fears , doubts , wants , troubles , and power of adversaries , in the passage to the recovery of our long lost freedom . for it is the same cause with that of the israelites of old , of which we ought not to be ashamed or distrustful . how hath it fared with the cause of christ generally , for more now than years , being made the common object of scorn and persecution , not from the base and foolish onely , but from the noblest and wisest persons in the worlds esteem ! yet , though our sufferings and the time of our warfare seems long , it is very short , considering the perpetuity of the kingdom which at last we shal obtain , & wherein we shal individually reign with the chief soveraign thereof . for whereas all the kingdoms of the world have not yet lasted years , this is everlasting and without end . they that overcome by not loving their lives unto the death , ( rev. . . ) shall be pillars in the house of this everlasting kingdom , never to be removed . they shall be kings and priests to god , sitting with him upon his throne , subjecting the nations , and reigning with him for ever and ever . this is a kingdom that consists with the divinity of christ , and humanity of men . such a reign of christ upon earth , as will not be without laws agreeable to humane nature , nor without magistrates appointed as officers under him ; in which election , god and the people shall have a joint concurrence . god's throne in mens consciences must then be resigned , and his people permitted to enjoy the liberties , due to them by the laws of grace and nature . into this , god's own immediate hand can now onely lead us , by his own coming to judgement in the valley of jehoshaphat . meditations concerning man's life , &c. penned by this sufferer in his prison state. it is a principal part of wisdom to know how to esteem life ; to hold and preserve , to loose or give it up . there is scarce any thing man more fails in than this . they that think nothing dearer than life , esteem life for it self , live not but to live . others think the shortest life best , either not to be born at all or else to die quickly . these are two extreams . that comes nearer truth , a wise man said , life is such a good , that if a man knew what he did in it , he would not accept , at least not desire it . vitam nemo cuperet , si daretur tantum scientibus . wise men , in living , make a virtue of necessity , live as long as they should , not as long as they can . there is a time to live and a time to die . a good death is far better and more elegible than an ill life . a wise man lives but so long as his life is more worth than his death . the longer life is not alwayes the better . to what end serves a long life ? simply to live , breath , eat , drink , and see this world ? what needs so long a time for all this ? me thinks we should soon be tired with the daily repetition of these and the like vanities ? would we live long , to gain knowledge , experience , and virtue ? this seems an honest design , but is better to be had other wayes by good men , when their bodies are in the grave . none usually imploy their time so ill in this world , as men. non inopes sumus vitae , sed prodigi . some begin to live when they should die . some have ended before they begin . 't is incident to folly to be alwayes but beginning to live. life is but a sorrowful state , a perpetual issue of errors . 't is a web of unhappy adventures ; a pursuit of divers miseries enchained together on all sides . solum id certum , nil esse certi : nec miserius quicquam homine nec superbius . vanity is the most essential and proper quality of man's first nature . the world is not worth that labour and pains man exercises in and about it ; which caused that saying ; a wise man should do nothing but for himself . t is not reason wise men should put themselves in danger for fooles , much less for knaves . the will onely is truly mans own , and the considerable part of the reasonable soul. on it depend the issues of good or evil , life or death . all the rest of a man , his understanding , memory , imagination , may be taken from him , altered , troubled by a thousand accidents . but the will is so much in our own power , that it cannot be taken away , though its action may be hindred . 't is our own , till we knowingly and freely give it away , which may be . and he that hath once absolutely given up his will to another , is no more his own man. he hath left himself nothing of his own . t is by the will we are good or evil , happy or unhappy . concerning government . he that gives up his will to the rule and government of another , becomes subject to that other . men that are born equal , come to be made subject two wayes ; either , by the free giving up of themselves to others , or by others violent assuming and exercising power over them , because they are strangers , as nimrod the mighty hunter of men , served his fellow mortals . government is either royal , or seignioral and tyrannical , as the turks . 't is then properly royal , be it administred by one , by many , or by all their representatives , when he or they that have soveraign power , obey the laws of nature , preserve the natural liberty and propriety of the goods and persons of the subjects , which no reasonable men , acted by sound judgement , will ever absolutely give away , but secure their right in , and power over , by fundamental contracts and agreements with their governors . absolute soveraignty is a perpetual power over all , without any restraint , limitations or conditions put upon the soveraign . this consists in a power of giving laws to all in general , and to every one in particular , without the consent or gift of any others , and requiring universal and undispensable obedience to all his commands , under just penalties . this soveraignty is proper onely to the highest being , not at all to creatures , though where the government is despotical and seignioral , it is assumed and exercised . but government royal , is that which is consonant to the immutable laws of nature and dictates of right reason , which require a conservation of the subjects liberty , and propriety in their goods and persons , as well as the preservation and upholding of empire and authority in the prince , and find out the medium , through the mutual agreements of soveraign and subjects , for both to consist . in quarrels between subjects and soveraigns , about the subjects liberty and the kings prerogative , 't is seldom seen , but the error lies on the soveraign's part , who is apt to be flattered into the presumptuous exercise of such an absolute soveraignty and legislative dominion over them , as becomes no creature , and exceeds all the bounds of that contract he made with them , at his inauguration . all just power and authority is from god , and by virtue of his ordinance and institution . he therefore that resisteth the power , resisteth the ordinance of god. but all contrarient actings against the prince , are not to be accounted a resisting of the power ; especially , when the whole state is concerned , and the business is managed by publick trustees , called and authorized by law , as conservers of the state , and defenders of the publick liberties and lawes thereof . in such a publick capacity , to stand in the gap , when a breach is made , and hinder any charge or attempt that would ruinate the state , is duty . in such case , they ought to withstand and hinder the violent proceedings of any , either by way of justice in a legal tryal , or by force . for the prince is not master of the state , but onely a guardian and defender thereof , from injuries and evil . yet these affaires , for redress of grievances , in case of princes failers , belong not to all , but to the tutors and maintainers of the state , or those that are interested therein ; as electors in elective states , and in hereditary states , the states general and representative body of the kingdom , according to the tenor of their fundamental laws . in this case it is generally acknowledged lawful , to resist a tyrant . under the cross accidents , issuing from such contests , to which man is subject through others arbitrary domination , he may carry himself well , two wayes . . by a strong and vigorous resistance thereof , to the last , for diverting or blunting the point of it , so as either to escape or force it . . the other way , and that perhaps the surest , is to take and receive these accidents at the worst , let them prove what they will , though to the loss of life and all that 's dear to him in this world. to resolve within himself to bear them sweetly and patiently , and peaceably to attend whatever shall happen , without tormenting himself about it , or loosing the calmness and serenity of his mind in going about to hinder or prevent it . he that takes the first course , labours to escape ; he that takes the latter is content rather to suffer . this many times proves the better bargain . 't is possible to incur greater inconveniency and loss in pleading and contending , than in loosing , or in flying for safety , than in suffering . concerning friendship . perfect friendship is a very plain and universal complication or enfolding of two soules in one , so , that the conjunction is most intimate and inseparable . they can no more be divided ; nor would they , if they might . secondly , it is very free , being built upon the pure choice and liberty of the will , without any other obligation or forreign motive . thirdly , without any exception of things , goods , honours , judgements , thoughts , wills , life . marriage it self is some resemblance of this divine knot , as saith the apostle , who from thence mounts in his contemplation to the great mysterie of this kind between christ and his church . abraham is called , the friend of god. concerning enemies . in reference to our enemies we must take care , not to meditate revenge . yet in some sense we may account it an excellent and worthy revenge , to slight the worst they can do , whereby we take away the pleasure which they think to have , in vexing us . we must in suffering injuries , have respect to our selves and to him that offends us . touching our selves , we must take heed , that we do nothing unworthy or unbecoming us , that may give the enemy advantage against us . as to him that offends us , we should be wise as serpents to wave his assault , till our hour is come , and we can gain and conquer by dying . it is a weakness of mind not to know how to contemn an offence . an honest man is not subject to injury . he is inviolable and unmoveable . inviolable , not so much that he cannot be beaten ; but , that being beaten , he doth neither receive wound nor hurt . we can receive no evil but of our selves . we may therefore always say with socrates , my enemies may put me to death , but they shall never enforce me to do that which i ought not . evils themselves , through the wise over-ruling providence of god , have good fruits and effects . the world would be extinguished and perish , if it were not changed , shaken and discomposed , by a variety and an interchangable course of things , wisely ordered by god , the best physitian . this ought to satisfie every honest and reasonable mind , and make it joyfully submit to the worst of changes , how strange and wonderful soever they may seem , since they are the works of god and nature , and that which is a loss in one respect , is a gain in another . let not a wise man disdain or ill resent any thing that shall happen to him . let him know those things that seem hurtful to him in particular , pertain to the preservation of the whole universe , and are of the nature of those things , that finish and fill up the course and office of this world. meditations on death . it is a fruit of true wisdom , not onely christian but natural , to be found and kept in a frame of mind , ready for death . the day of death is the judge of all our other dayes ; the very tryal and touchstone of the actions of our life . 't is the end that crowns the work , and a good death honoureth a man's whole life . this last act , as it is the most difficult , so but by this a man cannot well judge of the actions of anothers life , without wronging him . a wise greek being asked concerning three eminent persons , which of them was to be most esteemed , returned this answer , we must see them all three die , before this question can be resolved : with which accords that saying of solon , the wise athenian to craesus , when he boastingly shewed him his great treasures , no man is to be accounted happy before his death . true natural wisdom pursueth the learning and practise of dying well , as the very end of life ; and indeed , he hath not spent his life ill , that hath learned to die well . it is the chiefest thing and duty of life . the knowledge of dying , is the knowledge of liberty , the state of true freedom , the way to fear nothing , to live well , contentedly and peaceably . without this there is no more pleasure in life , than in the fruition of that thing , which a man feareth alwayes to loose . in order to which , we must above all endeavour that our sins may die , and that we see them dead before our selves , which alone can give us boldness in the day of judgement , and make us alwayes ready and prepared for death . death is not to be feared and fled from , as it is by most , but sweetly and patiently to be waited for , as a thing natural , reasonable , and inevitable . it is to be looked upon as a thing indifferent , carrying no harm in it . this , that is all the hurt enemies can do us , is that which we should desire and seek after , as the onely haven of rest , from all the torments of this life ; and which , as it gives us a fuller fruition of christ , is a very great gain , that the sooner we are possessors of , the better . death is the onely thing of all evils , or privations , that doth no harm , hath indeed no evil in it , however it be reputed . the sting of it is sin , and that is the sting of life too . there is no reason to fear it , because no man knows certainly what it is . this made socrates refuse to plead before his judges , for his justification or life . for ( saith he ) if i should plead for my life , and desire of you that i may not die , i doubt i may speak against my self , to my loss and hindrance , who may find more good in death than yet i know . those things i know to be evil , as unrighteousness and sin , i fly and avoid ; those that i know not to be so , as death , &c. i cannot fear , and therefore i leave it to you to determine for me , whether it is more expedient for me to dye or to live. he can never live contentedly that fears to dye . that man only is a free man who feareth not death , life it self being but slavery , if it were not made free by death . it is uncertain in what place death attends us , therefore let us expect it in all places , and be alwayes ready to receive it . great virtue , and great or long life do seldom meet together . life is measured by the end , if that be good , all the rest will have a proportion to it . the quantity is nothing , as to the making it more or less happy . the spirit of a good man , when he ceases to live in the body , goes into a better state of life , than that which he exercises in this world ; and when once in that , were it possible to resume this , he would refuse it . yea were a man capable to know what this life here is , before he receives it , he would scarce ever have accepted it at first . the self same journey men have taken , from no being to being , and from pre-existent being , into mortal life , without fear or passion , they may take again from that life by death , into a life that hath immortality in it . death is the inevitable law , god and nature have put upon us . things certain , should not be feared , but expected . things doubtful onely are to be feared . death in stead of taking away any thing from us , gives us all , even the perfection of our natures ; sets us at liberty both from our own bodily desires , & others domination ; makes the servant free from his master . it doth not bring us into darkness , but takes darkness out of us , us out of darkness , and puts us into marvellous light . nothing perishes or is dissolved by death , but the vail and covering , which is wont to be done away from all ripe fruit . it brings us out of a dark dungeon , through the crannies whereof , our sight of light is but weak and small , and brings us into an open liberty , an estate of light and life , unvailed and perpetual . it takes us out of that mortality which began in the womb of our mother , and now endeth , to bring us into that life which shall never end . this day which thou fearest as thy last , is thy birth day into eternity . death holds a high place in the policy and great common-wealth of the world. it is very profitable for the succession and continuance of the works of nature . the fading corruption , and loss of this life , is the passage into a better . death is no less essential to us , than to live or to be born . in flying death thou flyest thy self , thy essence is equally parted into these two , life and death . it is the condition and law of thy creation . men are not sent into the world by god , but with purpose to go forth again ; which he that is not willing to do , should not come in . the first day of thy birth , bindeth thee and sets thee in the way as well to death as to life . to be unwilling therefore to die , is to be unwilling to be a man , since to be a man is to be mortal . it being therefore so serviceable to nature and the institution of it , why should it be feared or shunned ? besides , it is necessary and inevitable , we must do our best endeavour in things that are not remediless , but ought to grow resolute in things past remedy . it is most just , reasonable , and desirable , to arive at that place towards which we are alwayes walking . why fearest thou to go whither all the world goes ? it is the part of a valiant and generous mind , to prefer some things before life , as things , for which a man should not doubt nor fear to die . in such a case , however matters go , a man must more account thereof than of his life . he must run his race with resolution , that he may perform things profitable and exemplary . the contempt of death , is that which produceth the boldest and most honourable exploits . he that fears not to die , fears nothing . from hence have proceeded the commendable resolutions and free speeches of vertue , uttered by men , of whom the world hath not been worthy . a gallant romane , commanded by vespasian not to come to the senate , answered , he was a senator , therefore sit to be at the senate ; and being there , if required to give his advice , he would do it as his conscience commanded him . hereupon being threatned by the emperor , he replyed , did i ever tell you , that i was immortal ? do you what you will , and i will do what i ought . it is in your power to put me unjustly to death ; and in mine to die constantly . what hard dealing cannot he suffer , that fears not to die ? other designments may be hindred by our enemies , but they cannot hinder us from dying . the means whereby to live free , is to contemn death . it is no great thing to live , slaves and beasts can do that , but it is a great matter to live freely , and die honestly , wisely , constantly . emori nolo ( saith one ) sed me esse mortuum , nihil estimo ; i would not die , but to be dead , i look upon as nothing . but no man can be said resolute to die , that is afraid to confront it , and suffer with his eyes open , as socrates did , without passion or alteration . in a miserable estate of a life , which a man cannot remedy , death is lawfully desirable , as our best retreat and onely haven from the storms of this life ; and as the soveraign good of nature , the onely stay and pillar of liberty . it is a good time to die , when to live is rather a burthen than a blessing , and there is more ill in life than good . there are many things in life , far worse than death , in respect whereof we should rather die than live . the more voluntary our death is , the more honourable . life may be taken away from every man by every man , but not death . it is no smal reproach to a christian , whose faith is in immortality and the blessedness of another life , to fear death much , which is the necessary passage thereunto . he ought rather to desire and thirst after death , as great gain ; vitam habere in patientiâ , & mortem in desiderio ; to endure life , and desire death . but it is greater constancy , well to use the chain wherewith we are bound , than to break it . a man is not to abandon his charge in life , without the express command of him that gave it him . sylvanus and proximus , being pardoned by nero , chose death , rather than to live upon those terms . nerva a great lawyer , cato of urica , and others , died , as not able to bear the sight of the weal-publick in that bad and declining state , into which by gods providence it was brought , in their times , but they should have considered , multa dies variusque labor mutabilis aevi , retulit in melius . a man ought to carry himself blamlesly and with a steddy courage in his place and calling , against his assailants , and consider that it is better to continue firme and constant to the end , then fearfully to fly or dye . it is not a less evil to quit the place and fly , than obstinately to be taken and perish . it is a great point of wisdom to know the right hour and fit season to die. many men have survived their own glory . that is the best death which is well recollected in it self , quiet , solitary , and attendeth wholly to what at that time is fittest . but let us more particularly , and upon truly and purely christian principles , weigh and consider death . they that live by faith , die daily . the life which faith teaches , works death . it leads up the mind to things not seen , which are eternal , and takes it off with its affections and desires , from things seen , which are temporary . it acquaints the soul experimentally with that heavenly way of converse and intercourse , which is not expressed by sensible signes , but by the demonstration proper to spirits , whether angels , souls separate , or souls yet in the body , as they live by faith , not by sense . in which respect , the use of voice and mouth is attributed to god , to christ , to angels , who have that with them and in them , whereby they outwardly manifest what they inwardly conceive , although they express not the inward word of their mental conception , by any outward voice , hand , eye , or other external sign , but by the way of its own self evidencing brightness , and essential demonstration . such a way of living and shining forth in man's naked essential beams , he then arrives unto , when the thick vail and wall of his flesh is dissolved , and his earthly tabernacle put off . the knowledge , sight , and experience of such a kind of subsisting and heavenly manner of life , that man is capable of , is the best preparative , and most powerful motive , to leave the body , and surcease the use of our earthly organs . this in effect is all that bodily death , rightly known and understood , doth impart ; a lawful surceasing the use and exercise of our earthly organs , and our willing and chearful resorting to the use and exercise of that life without the body , which man is capable to subsist in , when made perfect in spirit , an equal and associate with angels , under the power and order of expressing what he inwardly conceives , as they do . this made paul look upon life in the body , and life out of it , with no indifferent eye , but as accounting the being at home in the body , an absence from the lord ; and such a kind of absence from the body as death causes , to be that which makes us most present with the lord : which therefore we should be most willing unto , and with greatest longing after , desire . the strait which the apostle found himself in , was not at all from the least haesitation in his mind , which of the two , was in it self best and to be preferred , but by which christ might most be magnified , and the church benefitted , according to the will of christ . so then unless to live were christ , and a real and clear magnifying of christ in his body , he cared not for life , but contemned death . he saw evidently how it was his own particular loss and hindrance , even , not to die , since to be dissolved , to depart and be with christ , and in the society of the blessed angels and saints in heaven , was best of all , and far more gainful and to be valued by him , than any longer continuance or abode in the flesh . the magnifying of christ in his body , whether by life or by death , was the consideration with paul , that held the ballance , cast the scale , and that onely . so it ought to be with every true christian . the end of man's coming into the body , and his temporary continuance and abode there , according to the law of his creation , is the magnifying and glorifying christ , either by his life or by his death , or both , the one of which if he do not , it must needs be his sin , and he is left without excuse . for none can violate or corrupt the mind of man , by the law of nature , nor let in death upon his spiritual substance , but himself , though they dissolve his temporary abode in the flesh , break his outward case and shel ; and rather than do the one , we should choose the other , choose affliction rather than sin , the dissolution of the body , rather than the corrupting of the mind . in so doing and dying , christ is magnifyed . thus peter was foretold , by what death he should glorify god. and to such it is given by christ , not onely to believe , but suffer and die for his names sake , as a transcendent priviledge and honour . if no restraint then be upon our mind from without , what hinders that christ is not magnified in our body , but something within us ; in our judgement , will , and affections , that are not right set and fixed , nor as yet wrought to this self same thing by god , who hath given us the earnest of his spirit ? but it may be demanded , what is it , in which this great duty of man lies , as to the magnifying of christ in his body by his life , or living in the body , which is a more difficult thing to do than to die ? christ himself tells us , when he saith , let your light so shine before men , that they may see , feel , and sensibly discern , your good works ; and so , glorify your father which is in heaven . there are two sorts of signs we read of , in those that believe , which justifie their faith , in consortship ( as it were ) with which their faith works and is made perfect , so as the work of faith is fulfilled in them with power . . signs extraordinary , as mark . . with which the primitive christians were well acquainted , and so may all such again , as arrive to any competent maturity in that primitive christian spirit . . signes ordinary , as those mentioned , gal. . , . called , the fruits of the spirit in us , that makes us mighty in word and in deed , not onely to will but to perform that which is good ; by being filled with the spirit in our very bodies , made the temples of the holy ghost , rich in faith and tuch good works , as are the fruit of faith , without which , faith it self is dead and unprofitable ; and by which , abraham justified his faith , and was called , the friend of god. it is in this sense , the prophet urges the sanctification of our vessels , when he saith , be ye clean that bear the vessels of the lord. and the apostle , when he saith , cor. . . what! know ye not that your body is the temple of the holy ghost , unto which redemption by christ extends , as well as to your spirits ? therefore glorify god in your body as well as in your spirit , which is god's , and wherein he hath and challengeth a special propriety . the body in scripture acceptation , signifies , not onely the material substance , from which the soul is actually separated , when it is laid in the grave ; but very usually the soul it self , that is to say , that part of the soul , which vitally unites the body to it self , whose faculty and operation is in and by the body , and doth properly and immediately exercise bodily life , as that which is co-natural , and co-essential to it . there is a higher part in man's soul , called spirit , in distinction from soul and body , expressed thes . . . as if the spirit were an entire thing in it self , though it be that , in and with which , soul and body doth consist , as parts of the whole man. i pray god , saith the apostle , that your whole spirit , soul , and body , be preserved blameless to the coming of christ , and that you may be sanctified throughout , or in every part of you , in your soul and in your body , which are to be esteemed but as parts , comparatively with your whole spirit . man , considered as entire in his spirit , may have and hath being , before he partakes of flesh and blood , as it is written , behold , saith christ , i and the children which thou hast given me . forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood , he also himself took part of the same : even he , who , with the children , were a mystery hid with the father , before the world was , and had their seminal and radical being , in the word of life , the father of spirits . in this word , as in the image and mental conception of the invisible god , the souls of all men , even of christ himself , as man , were comprehended , as in their original pattern and rule , in order at the time appointed , to come into flesh , and there make their temporary abode , allotted to them . by the condition and law of man's creation , he is made a spiritual essence , with two distinct faculties and operations , according to which he may be said to be both immortal and mortal , immaterial and material , spirit and body , as body signifies man's animal rational soul , that is to live in flesh , and hath its peculiar desire , faculty , and operation , proportioned thereunto . in all this man bears the image and similitude of god the mediator , or of the godhead in christ , as two natures in him are hypostatically united , and make but one compositum , or person . this was comprehended in that counsel which the blessed trinity took concerning the making of man in their image , and after their similitude . he was made male and female in his very spiritual substance . first , with a faculty , and operation of mind , superiour , stronger and more excellent , which is free and independent upon bodily organs , exercising life , properly and purely spiritual and immaterial , above and without the use of sensible , signes , or shapes . secondly , with that inferiour faculty and operation of mind , whose subsistence , life , being , and motion , is in , with , and by the body , and through the use of bodily organs , sensible signes , and external mediums , on the loss of which , this second faculty and operation of man's soul , which is the weaker , inferiour , and less valuable , ceases ; at least , is for a time suspended , which in scripture phrase is called death ; even the death of the body . yet the more vigorous the exercise of this latter is , and the more that thereby we are at home in the body , the more in truth and reality we are dead ; at least , asleep in the earth , as to our more noble and spiritual part , in and through which , we enjoy most of the presence of god and of christ . since therefore , mans constitution of being , in such , as he cannot live both these lives together , untill the resurrection , but that in the one of them , he must be incompleat , have his operation much suspended , and be , as it were dead or asleep . to resolve which of these to choose and prefer , ought not to be so difficult , as commonly it is made . on the sufferings of the renowned sir h. vane , knight . — great soul , ne're understood until deciphered by thy blood , a priest , a prophet , and a king , systeme of every worthy thing . dying , that liberty might live , the english cause he doth retrieve ; stating it in no formal dress , but in the spirit of righteousness . which he from th' earth perceiving fled , dy'd , to return with 't from the dead . persons or forms of government , did little make to his intent . to nought was he an enemy , but what was fix'd in enmity . ' gainst which he fought with eager breath , became victorious in his death . and this not by necessity , it was his principle to dye . flesh will resist , but faith can suffer , the soft hand 's gone , beware the rougher . th' envy and hate of every form , upon his head pour'd down the storm . whilst he sublim'd , and sav'd the good o' th' lowest , and seal'd it with his blood. how great he was , his enemies tell , who , while he liv'd , could not be well . and in what stead his offering stood , by resolute silence , friends made good . the male o' th' flock is ta'ne , the best , to expiate the blame o' th' rest . what tears and prayers wanted in strength , his crying blood brings down at length . groan , english hearts ! groan ! help the cry , lord jesus come ! i come quickly . finis . the printer to the reader . it 's very probable thou mayest meet with some faults and misprintings escaped the corrector , which could not be avoided , by reason of the distance between the transcriber and the press ; thou art desired to correct them , and pass them by with candor . one thou mayest find in page , and , all those words within the parenthesis , should come in after the word penetent . and page . in the title to that part , read case for cause . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e ☜ the lawes against vvitches, and conivration and some brief notes and observations for the discovery of witches. being very usefull for these times, wherein the devil reignes and prevailes over the soules of poore creatures, in drawing them to that crying sin of witch-craft. also, the confession of mother lakeland, who was arraigned and condemned for a witch, at ipswich in suffolke. published by authority. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing l aa). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing l aa estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the lawes against vvitches, and conivration and some brief notes and observations for the discovery of witches. being very usefull for these times, wherein the devil reignes and prevailes over the soules of poore creatures, in drawing them to that crying sin of witch-craft. also, the confession of mother lakeland, who was arraigned and condemned for a witch, at ipswich in suffolke. published by authority. lakeland, mother. aut p. printed for r.w., london : . annotation on thomason copy: "oct: ". reproductions of the originals in the british library and the bodleian library, oxford. eng witchcraft -- england -- early works to . trials (witchcraft) -- england -- ipswich -- early works to . a r (wing l aa). civilwar no the lawes against vvitches, and conivration. and some brief notes and observations for the discovery of witches. being very usefull for thes [no entry] c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the lawes against vvitches , and conivration . and some brief notes and observations for the discovery of witches . being very usefull for these times , wherein the devil reignes and prevailes over the soules of poor creatures , in drawing them to that crying sin of witch-craft . also , the confession of mother lakeland , who was arraigned and condemned for a witch , at ipswich in suffolke . published by authority . london , printed for r. w. . the lawes against vvitches , &c. anno primo iacobi regis , cap. . the penalty for practising of invocation , or conjuration , &c. be it enacted by the king our soveraigne lord ; the lords spirituall and temporall , and the commons ●n this present parliament assembled , and by the au●hority of the same , that the statute made in the fifth yeare of the reigne of our late soveraigne lady of most famous and happy memory , queen elizabeth , entituled , an act against conjurations , inchantments and witchcrafts ; be from the feast of saint michael the archangel next comming , for and concerning all offences to bee committed after the same feast , utterly repealed . and for the better restraining the said offences , and more severe punishing the same , be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid ; that if any person or persons , after the said feast of st. michael the archangell next comming , shall use , practise , or exercise any invocation or conjuration of an evil and wicked spirit : or shall consult , covenant with , entertaine , imploy , feed , or reward any evil and wicked spirit , to or for any intent or purpose ; or take up any dead man , woman , or child , out of his , her , or their grave , or any other place where the dead body resteth ; or the skin , bone , or any other part of any dead p●rson , to be imployed , or used in any manner of witchcraft , sorcery , charme , or inchantment , or shall use , practise , or exercise , any witchcraft , inchantment , charme , or sorcery , whereby any person shall be killed , destroyed , wasted , consumed , pined , or lamed , in his or her body , or any part thereof ; that then every such offender , or offenders , their ayders , abetters , and councellors , being of any of the said offences duly and lawfully convicted and attainted , shall suffer paines of death as a felon or felons , and shall lose the priviledge and benefit of clergy and sanctuary . and further , to the intent that all manner of practise , use or exercise of witchcraft , inchantment , charme , or sorcery , should be from henceforth utterly avoided , abolished , and taken away : be it enacted by the authority of this present parliament , that if any person or persons , shall from and after the said feast of st. michaell the archangell next comming , take upon him or them , by witchcraft , inchantment , charme , or sorcery , to tell or declare in what place any treasure of gold or silver should or might be found or had in the earth , or other secret places ; or where goods , or things lost , or stolne , should be found or become , or to the intent to provoke any person to unlawfull love , or whereby any cattell , or goods of any person shall be destroyed , wasted , or impaired ; or to hurt or destroy any person in his or her body , although the same be not effected and done , that then all and every such person or persons so offending , and being thereof lawfully convicted , shall for the said offence suffer imprisonment by the space of one whole year , without baile or maineprise ; and once in every quarter of the said year , shall in some market-town , upon the market day , or at any such time as any faire shall be kept there , stand openly upon the pillory by the space of . hours , and there shall openly confesse his or her errour and offence . and if any person or persons , being once convicted of the same offences as is aforesaid , do eftsoones perpetrate and commit the like offence , that then every such offender , being of any the said offences the second time lawfully , and duly convicted , and attainted as is aforesaid , shall suffer paines of death as a felon , or felons , and shall lose the benefit and priviledge of clergy , and sanctuary , saving to the wife of such person as shall offend in any thing contrary to this act , her title of dower , and also to the heire and successor of every such person , his , or their titles of inheritance , succession , and other rights , as though no such attainder of the ancestor or predecessour had been made : provided alwayes , that if the offender in any the cases aforesaid , shall happen to be a peer of the realm , then his tryall therein , to be had by his peers , as it is used in cases of f●lony or treason , and not otherwise . the observations for the discovery of witches . now for asmuch as witches are the most cruell , revengefull , and bloody of all others : the justices of peace may not alwayes expect direct evidence , seeing all their works are workes of darkenesse , and no witnesses present with them to accuse them ; and therefore for their better discovery i thought good here to insert certaine observations , partly out of the book of discovery of the witches that were araigned at lancaster , anno dom . . before sir iames altham , and sir edward bromeley judges of assise there : and partly out of mr. bernards guide to grand iury-men . . these witches have ordinarily a familiar , or spirit , which appeareth to them ; sometimes in one shape , sometimes in another , as in the shape of a man , woman , boy , dogge , cat , fo●le , fowle , hare , rat , toad , &c. and to these their spirits they give names , and they meet together to christen them . ber. . . . their said familiar hath some big or little teat upon their body , where he sucketh them ; and besides their sucking , the devil leaveth other markes upon their bodies , sometimes like a blew-spot , or red-spot , like a flea-biting , sometimes the flesh sunck in and hollow , all which for a time may be covered , yea taken away , but will come again to their old forme : and these the devils markes be insensible , and being pricked wil not bleed ; and be often in their secret parts , and therefore require diligent and carefull search . ber. . . these first two are maine points to discover and convict these witches ; for they prove fully that those witches have a familiar ; and made a league with the devil . ber. . so likewise if the suspected be proved to have been heard to call upon their spirit , or to talk to thē , or of them , or have offered them to others . so if they have been seen with their spirits , or seen to feed some thing secretly , these are proofes they have a familiar , &c. . they have often pictures of clay or wax ( like a man , &c. made of such as they would bewitch ) found in their house , or which they roast , or bury in the earth , that as the picture consumes , so may the parties bewitched consume . . there are other presumptions against these witches ; as if they be given to usuall cursing , and bitter imprecations , and withall use threatnings to be revenged , and their imprecations , or some other mischief presently followeth , ber. . . . their implicite confession , as when any shall accuse them for hurting them or their cattell , they shall answer , you should have let me alone then , or , i have not hurt you as yet : these and the like speches are in manner of a confession of their power of hurting , ber. . . their diligent inquiry after the sick party ; or coming to visite him or her unsent for ; but especially being forbiden the house . . their apparition to the sick party in his fits . . the sick party in his fits naming the parties suspected , and where they be or have been , or what they do , if truly . . the common report of their neighbours , especially if the party suspected be of kin , or servant to , or familiar with a convicted witch : . the testimony of other witches , confessing their own witchcrafts , and witnessing against the suspected , and that they have spirits , or markes ; that they have been at their meetings : that they have told them what harme they have done , &c. ber. . . . if the dead body bleed upon the witches touching it . . the testimony of the person hurt , upon his death . . the examination and confession of the children ( able and fit to answer ) or servants of the witch ; especially concerning the first six observations of the party suspected ; her threatnings and cursings of the sick party ; her enquiring after the sick party ; her boasting or rejoycing at the sick parties trouble : also whether they have seen her call upon , speak to , or feed any spirit , or such like ; or have heard her foretell of this mishap , or speak of her power to hurt , or of her transportation to this or that place , &c. . their own voluntary confession ( which exceeds all other evidences ) of the hurt they have done , or of the giving of their soules to the devil , and of the spirits which they have , how many , how they call them , and how they came by them . . besides , upon the apprehension of any suspected , to search also their houses diligently for pictures of clay or wax , &c. haire cut , bones , powders , books of witchcrafts , charms ; and for pots or places where their spirits may be kept , the smell of which place will stink detestably . now to shew you further some signes to know whether the sick party be bewitched : . when a healthy body shall be suddenly taken , &c. without probable reason , or naturall cause appearing , &c. ber. . . when two or more are taken in the like strange fits in many things . . when the afflicted party in his fits doth tell truly many things what the witch or other persons absent are doing or saying , and the like . . when the parties shall do many things strangely , or speak many things to purpose , and yet out of their fits know not any thing thereof . . when there is a strength supernaturall , as that a strong man or two shall not be able to keep down a child , or weak person , upon a bed . . when the party doth vomit up pins , needles , nailes , coales , lead , straw , haire , or the like . . when the party shall see visibly some apparition , and shortly after some mischief shall befall him . ber. . note , for the better riddance of these witches , there must good care be had , as well in their examinations taken by the justices , as also in the drawing of their indictments , that the same be both set down directly in the materiall points , &c. as , that the witch ( or party suspected ) hath used invocation of some spirit . that they have consulted or covenanted with their spirit . that they imployed their spirit . that they fed or rewarded their spirit . that they have killed , or lamed , &c. some person , &c , and not to indict them generally for being witches &c. the difference between conjuration , witchcraft , and inchantment , &c. is this : viz. conjurers and witches have personall conference with the devil or evill spirit , to effect their purpose , see sam. . . &c. the conjurers believe , that by certain terrible words they can raise the devil , and make him to tremble ; and by impaling themselves in a circle ( which as one saith cannot keep out a mouse ) they beleeve that they are therein insconsed and safe from the devil , whom they are about to raise ; and having raised the devil , they seem , by prayers , and invocation of gods powerfull names , to compell the devil to say or do what the conjurer commandeth him . the witch dealeth rather by a friendly and voluntary conference or agreement between him ( or her ) and the devil or familiar , to have his or her turn served , and in lieu thereof the witch giveth ( or offereth ) his or her soule , blood , or other gift unto the devil . also the conjurer compacteth for curiosity , to know secrets , or work miracles ; and the witch of meere malice to do mischiefe , and to be revenged . the inchanter , charmer , or sorcerer , these have no personall conference with the devil , but ( without any apparition ) work and perform things ( seemingly at the least ) by certain superstitious , and ceremoniall formes of words ( called charmes ) by them pronounced , or by medicines , herbs , or other things applied above the course of nature ; and by the devils help , and covenants made with him . of this last sort likewise are soothsayers or wisards , which divine and foretell things to come , by the flying , singing , or feeding of birds : and unto such questions as be demanded of them , they do answer by the devil ( or by his help ) sc. they do either answer by voyce , or else do set before their eyes in glasses , chrystall stones , or rings , the pictures or images of the persons or things sought for . i shall now adde the confession of mother lakeland of ipswich , who was arraigned and condemned for a witch , and suffered death by burning , at ipswich in suffolk , on tuesday the . of september , . the said mother lakeland hath been a professour of religion , a constant hearer of the word for these many years , and yet a witch ( as she confessed ) for the space of near twenty years . the devil came to her first between sleeping and waking , and spake to her in a hollow voyce , telling her , that if she would serve him she should want nothing . after often sollicitation she consented to him ; then he stroke his claw ( as she confessed ) into her hand , and with her blood wrote the covenants . ( now the subtilty of sathan is to be observed , in that he did not presse her to deny god and christ , as he useth to do to others ; because she was a professour , and might have lost all his hold by pressing her too far ) then he furnished her with three imps , two little dogs and a mole ( as she confessed ) which she imployed in her services : her husband she bewitched ( as she confessed ) whereby he lay in great misery for a time , and at last dyed . then she sent one of her dogs to one mr. lawrence in ipswich , to torment him and take away his life : she sent one of them also to his child , to torment it , and take away the life of it , which was done upon them both : and all this ( as she confessed ) was , because he asked her for . s. that she owed him , and for no other cause . she further confessed , that she sent her mole to a maid of one mrs. ienings in ipswich , to torment her and take away her life , which was done accordingly : and this for no other cause , but for that the said maid would not lend her a needle that she desired to borrow of her , and was earnest with her for a shilling that she owed the said maid . then she further confessed , she sent one of her imps to one mr. beale in ipswich , who had formerly been a sutor to her grand-child ; and because he would not have her , she sent and burned a new ship ( that had never been at sea ) that he was to go master of ; and sent also to torment him and take away his life ; but he is yet living , but in very great misery , and as it is verily conceived by the doctors and chirurgions that have him in hand , that he consumes and rots , and that halfe of his body is rotten upon him as he is living . severall other things she did , for all which she was by law condemned to die , and in particular to be burned to death , because she was the death of her husband , as she confessed ; which death she suffered accordingly . but since her death there is one thing that is very remarkable , and to be taken notice of : that upon the very day that she was burned , a bunch of flesh , something after the form of a dog , that grew upon the thigh of the said mr. beale , ever since the time that she first sent her imp to him , being very hard , but could never be made to break by all the means that could be used ; brake of it self , without any means using : and another sore , that at the same time she first sent her imp to him , rose upon the side of his belly , in the form of a fistula , which ran , and could not be healed by all the means that could be used , presently also began to heale , and there is great hopes that he will suddenly recover again , for his sores heale apace , and he doth recover his strength . he was in this misery for the space of a yeare and halfe , and was forced to go with his head and his knees together , his misery was so great . finis . articles of impeachment and accusation, exhibited in parliament against colonell nathaniel fiennes touching his dishonorable surrender of the city and castle of bristoll, by clement walker and william prynne, esquires : together with a letter from mr. prynne to colonell fiennes. fiennes, nathaniel, or - , defendant. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing a ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; :e , no ) articles of impeachment and accusation, exhibited in parliament against colonell nathaniel fiennes touching his dishonorable surrender of the city and castle of bristoll, by clement walker and william prynne, esquires : together with a letter from mr. prynne to colonell fiennes. fiennes, nathaniel, or - , defendant. prynne, william, - . england and wales. parliament. p. [s.n.], london : . reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng prynne, william, - . trials (impeachment) -- england. a r (wing a ). civilwar no articles of impeachment and accusation, exhibited in parliament, against colonell nathaniel fiennes, touching his dishonorable surrender of walker, clement c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion articles of impeachment and accusation , exhibited in parliament , against colonell nathaniel fiennes , touching his dishonorable surrender of the city and castle of bristoll ; by clement walker and william prynne , esquires . together with a letter from mr. prynne to colonell fiennes . london : printed in the yeer , . die mercurii , novemb. . the humble petition of clement walker and william prynne , esqs concerning mr. nathaniel fiennes and the surrender of bristoll , was this day read-in the house of commons , and articles of accusation of the said mr. fiennes , touching the surrender of the said city of bristoll and castle , was this day likewise presented to the said house ; a letter from master prynne to mr. nathaniel fiennes was was likewise read . ordered by the house of commons , that they shall be carefull , that there be a a fair and equall triall of mr. nathaniel fiennes . resolved , &c. that these articles , intituled , articles of accusation and impeachment against colonell nathaniel fiennes , late governour of the castle and city of bristoll , touching the dishonorable surrender thereof to the enemy , contrary to his trust and duty , by clement walker and william prynne esqs shall be now read . the said articles and impeachment were accordingly read . the petition and articles were signed , clement walker and william prynne ; and they were both called in at the bar ; being demanded whether the names subscribed , were of their hand writing ; they did avow the names to be of their own hand-writing , and did avow the said petition and articles . ordered that a copy of the articles attested under the clerks hand , be forthwith sent to my lord generall . h : elsynge , cler. parl. d. com. articles of accusation and impeachment , against colonell nathaniel fiennes , late governour of the city and castle of bristoll , touching his dishonourable surrender therof to the enemy , contrary to his trust and duty , by clement walker and william prynne esq. . inprimis , that he the said colonell nathaniel fiennes , did suddenly apprehend , imprison , & remove colonell thomas essex , late governour of the said city and castle from his government there , upon pretence that hee intended to deliver up the same ( not then fully fortified , or sufficiently provided to withstand any long siege ) into the hands of the common enemies of the kingdome and parliament ; contrary to the trust reposed in him ▪ and that hereupon , hee the said col. fiennes obtained the government of the said city and castle for himselfe , and undertooke to defend and keep the same , to the uttermost extremity against the said enemy , for the use of the king and parliament , and not to surrender the said city and castle , or either of them to the said enemies , or to any other person whatsoever , without the previous consent and order of the parliament . . item , that the said colonel , soone after hee became governour of the said city and castle , did by martiall law , apprehend , condemne and execute some chiefe citizens thereof ; namely , master yeomans , master butcher , and others , onely for intending to deliver up the same to prince rupert , when he came first before bristoll ( not then fully fortified and stored ) though they did not actually surrender the same . . item , that he the said colonel did put the parliament , kingdome , country and city , to a vast expence in fortifying and furnishing it , and the castle thereof with forts , sconce , canons , ammunition , arms , victualls , provision of all sorts , and with garrisons sufficiently able to defend and maintain the same for three moneths space or more , against all the power of the enemies , that might or did come against the same ; and did likewise promise and undertake to divers gentlemen and inhabitants thereof , to defend the same for so long space or more , in case they should be besieged . . item , that he the said colonell , notwithstanding the said premisses , when the enemy came before the said city and castle , with no extraordinary forces or ammunition able to force the same , and besieged them not above foure dayes at the most , did before ever the enemy had taken any of the out forts , or sconces about the same ; or had made so much as the least battery or assault upon the walls of the said city or cast●e , or any myne or breach into any of the forts thereof , contrary to his former trust , promises , duty , and the honour of a souldier , most dishonourably , cowardly , and traiterously delivered up the said city and castle , with all the prisoners , canons , ammunition , artillery , armes , military provisions , magazines , victualls therein , and the very colours too , without , and against the consent of the parliament , or his excellency their generall , into the hands and power of prince rupert , and other common enemies of the kingdome and parliament , to the extraordinary great danger , dishonour , losse and prejudice of the whole kingdome and parliament , the evill examples of other governours and townes , the losse of most of the westerne parts of england , and great incouraging , inriching , and strengthening of the said enemies , both by land and sea , and that upon very dishonourable articles , to which hee was no wayes necessitated , and had no care to see them punctually performed by the enemy , when complaint thereof was made to him for reliefe , to the great prejudice and impoverishing of the inhabitants and garrison souldiers there . . item , that the said colonell , without the privity or consent of any councell of warre , did of his owne head , send out for a parley with the enemy , when the officers and souldiers advised and perswaded the contrary , and would have repulsed the enemies , and defended the said city and castle to the utmost , that the surrendering up of the same was principally occasioned by earnest perswasion , advice , and cowardice of the said governour , contrary to his trust and duty to keepe the same : and that the said governour , when as the councell of warre unanimously voted upon the parley , that it was neither safe , nor honorable for them to depart the towne , unlesse they might march thence with halfe their armes at least , and with their colours ; thereupon , after some private conference with colonell ierrard , one of the enemies commanders , in the garden , without the privity , and contrary to the vote of the said councell , did make & insert the last article , that they should leave all their canon and ammunition , with their armes and colours behinde them , and returning to them out of the garden , told them plainly , that they must now deliver up all to the enemy , but what was expressed in the articles , he then produced , and leave their armes and colours behind them , to the said councells and fouldiers great discontent . and whereas by those very articles , the said town and castle were not to be delivered up till nine of the clocke the next morning , nor the enemies to enter them , till the souldiers , and other gentlemen were marched out , the said governour was so over hasty to surrender up the same , that hee delivered them up to the enemy above one houre , or more , before the houre agreed on ; and suffered the enemies to enter and possesse them before the souldiers were marched out , whereby many of the souldiers were pillaged in the castle and towne , and divers of the inhabitants best affected to the parliament , plundered before the houre of surrender came , to their great losse and undoing . . item , that he the said colonell , during the foure dayes siege of the said city and castle , did not give any such incouragement to the souldiers and officers ( who bravely defended the same , and slew neere one thousand of the enemies best men , by his own printed relation , with the losse onely of eight persons ) which much discouraged them , as his duty and place required , and they expected ; and that when a small number of the enemies , not two hundred ( who gave themselves for lost , ) had entred the line of commumication at the weakest place , which vvas worst guarded ; on wednesday morning the . of iuly last ( being bravely repulsed by the souldiers with great losse in all places else ) he the said colonell for two houres space or more ( during which time no more enemies entred or approached the said breach ) both neglected and refused to command or incourage the officers and souldiers , who offered to beate them out in due time , as he was advised and pressed to do by captain bagnall , livetenant colonell damson , and divers others , who would have undertaken that service ; and instead of incountering the said enemies ( against whom the very women offered to go on with their children to dead the canon , if the souldiers were afraid , rather then the city and castle should be yeelded ) called off the souldiers and officers from the line and out-workes ( that the enemies might the better enter them without resistance ) upon pain of death , much against their wills , who should and would have hindered and repulsed the enemies , and discouraged and hindred such as were forwards to have cut them off , sounding a parly when the enemies were so beaten that they threw down their armes , and ready for quarter , insomuch that divers of the souldiers and inhabitants , cryed out they were betrayed , and some of the souldiers brake their armes in discontent , swearing they would serve the parliament no more . . item , that the said governour , notwithstanding his promises to defend the said city and castle , and dispute it to the last , had yet a reall intention to deliver up the same to the enemy before ever they were besieged by them , and no thought at all to defend it to the uttermost , or till it might be relieved by his excellency , as appeares by the premised articles , by the said governours refusall to send the prisoners formerly taken out of the said castle , before the enemy approached , when moved to it , saying to sir william waller and others , that he would detain those prisoners still there , to make his owne conditions and composition the better with the enemie , if they came before it , by his commanding master hassard the master gunner there , to lay aside a reserve of thirty barrells of powder , with match and bullet answerable , to which when he was reduced , he would then treat with the enemy , ( which he did before he was reduced to this large reserve ) by other speeches to the like effect , and by his moving sir william waller to depart from bristoll , before it was besieged , who otherwise would have adventured his life in its defence . . item , that he the said governour , when he surrendred the said castle to the enemy , had at least sixty barrells of powder therein ( besides what was in the city and forts ) being ten more then were in gloucester when it was first besieged , five hundred canon shot , fifty great granadoes , fourteen hundred weight of match or more , great store of musket bullets , and tin to make more , a match-maker , a bullet-maker , with materialls to make match and bullets , and all manner of provisions and victuals , sufficient to maintain one thousand men for three or four moneths space at least , eleven canons therein mounted , ( besides . canons mounted in the city and forts ) all which were surrendred to the enemy before any battery or assault made against the said castle ( though he had men more then enough by his own relation to defend it ) contrary to his promise made to divers inhabitants of the said city , best affected to the parliament , to defend the same to the uttermost , and to dispute every foot thereof with the enemy , and to keep it , or to lay his bones therein ; who thereupon sent in their estates , with provisions for them and their families , for three moneths or more , into the said castle , where the said colonell promised to secure and defend the same , most of which their estates , were there seized on by the enemy to their undoing , by reason the said colonell admitted the enemies into the said castle , and delivered up the keyes thereof unto them , before the houre agreed on in the articles , such was his extraordinary haste , to quit the same . . item , that the said colonell , to aggravate this his dishonourable action , hath presumed to justifie the same , not onely before the honourable house of commons , by word of mouth , but likewise before the whole kingdome and world in printed relations and letters , wherein he hath laid an extraordinary great blemish both upon the honourable houses of parliament , and his excellency the earle of essex , their lord generall , by publishing in print , that had he manfully held out the said city and castle to the last , yet he could not have expected any relief from them in six or eight weekes space at the least , when as glocester since besieged with a far greater force then bristoll was , yet relieved by them in lesse then halfe the time ( as bristoll doubtlesse might and would have beene ) and held out a full mone●hs siege or more , as bristoll might have done , though he the said colonell to adde to his former offence , and hinder or anticipate the relief of glocester , that it might be lost as bristoll was , gave out in speeches to some members of the house of commons and others , and namely to master samuel browne , and master iohn sedgwick , that he would lose his head , or be hanged , if glocester could or would hold out three dayes siege , if the enemy once came before it , or words to the like effect . item , that the said city and castle were so cowardly and unworthily delivered up to the enemies , that they have since published in print , and given out in speeches that the said colonell fines did bestow the same upon his majesty , that they were delivered up to them beyond their expectation , and that they could not have taken the same , had it been defended by the governour , who eventually at least if not intentionally , did but strongly fortifie , and plentifully store the same , with all manner of provisions to make it tenable , at the kingdoms and the countreys extraordinary expence , to render up the same to the enemies with great advantage to them , and far more prejudice and dammage to the commonwealth , as soon as it was made defensible . sir , on friday night late i received a note from your foot-boy , without name or date , with a datelesse , nameles paper inclosed , pretended to be a proclamation of my lo●● generals , to appear at a councell of war on thursday next ( not expressing what time of the day ) to be held in the army , ( without mentioning in what certain place , the army being dispersed into divers quarters remote from town ) to justifie what i have written concerning the cowardly and unworthy surrendring up of bristoll ; which generall , the consciousnesse of your own guilt makes you ( it seems ) to appropriate wholly to your self , though not named by me : which i shall be ready to do ( since thus unexpectedly challenged into the lists ) when i shall be legally summoned thereunto , at a certain competent time and place . to which end ( since your foot-boyes namelesse , dateleffe summons , without any warrant under my lord generalls hand and seal ; with the datelesse , namelesse , placelesse ; sealesse proclamation inclosed ; are but grosse artificiall flourishes to blinde the world , and meer nullities in martiall , common , civil , canon law , as all professors of them wil instruct you ; and such an individuum vagum , which makes intelligent men conceive , that you intend onely to abuse the world with flourishes , bravadoes , and never to put your self upon a reall publike triall . i and mr. walker , to set you into a legall reall way of triall , have both joyned in two petitions to my lord generall and the house of commons , to appoint a generall councell of war , for the hearing of this publike case in a convenient time ( the next wednesday if you please ) and fitting place within westminster or london , in presence of the house of commons , of which you are a member , to the end you may vindicate your honour , and make good your printed relation to the house , your letter to his excellencie , and delusory rude answer to mr. walkers , before them , if able , to your just purgation , and our disreputation ; or else give him and me leave to disprove them , and justifie what we have severally written ( my self by no lesse authority then a committee of the house of commons ) to your just dishonour , capitall censure , and maintenance of our reputations , which you would wound , if possible , to repair your own . truth seeks no corners , fears no colours , trialls ; neither shall i in this common cause , wherein the kingdom hath suffered more damage by bristolls surrender , then your life or estate are ever able to satisfie , though you should lose both for it ( as may peradventure chance to do , if you make no better a defence of your cause , in which you have now most unwillingly ingaged me past all retreats ) then of this city and castle , and that by your own martiall law ( to omit ancient presidents ) who dispossessed colonell essex of his governorship of that place , hanged up two citizens there , and ransomed others , onely for attempting to deliver up bristoll to the enemy before it was fortified and furnished ; when you did them a far greater kindnesse , to fortifie and furnish it with all sorts of ammunition and provisions , at the parliaments and kingdoms cost , and then most valiantly surrendred it , with all the canon , ammunition , treasure , provisions , ships , prisoners , arms , colours in it ; and if we beleeve mercurius aulicus , bestowed them on the king , to the irrepairable losse and danger of the whole kingdom , before any one sconce taken , any one shot made against the cities or castles walls , or the least assault of either of them . and yet such hath the carriage of this strange action hitherto been , on your part , that dat veniam coruis , vexat censura columbas . you censure , quarrell all other men who dare be so valiantly honest as to dispraise this your heroicke state-service , which hath quite undone them . sir , if you be as really confident of your owne innocency and valour , as you are quarrellous of our pretended calumnies of them , ( who beleeve we have written far more trueth of you , then your self hath done ) i beleeve you will cordially second our petitions , for such a fair publike triall as we desire , and the world expects , after so many printed bravadoes ; otherwise the whole kingdom will pronounce you guilty , and all men of armes , of honour , proclaime you a coward , if you flee a fair publike triall ; wherein i shall punctually follow those texts you point me to , exod. - , , . ( which i wish you had made use of in this cause ) and ayme not so much at victory , or private ends , as verity and publike good in this legall combat , in which i hope to manifest my selfe a true friend to my countrey , and no enemy to your self , but a pious one , of your owne seeking . yours , william prynne . lincolns-inne , . novem. . finis . a publick tryal of the quakers in barmudas [sic] upon the first day of may, by samson bond, late the preacher of the gospel in barmudas. bond, samson. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing b estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a publick tryal of the quakers in barmudas [sic] upon the first day of may, by samson bond, late the preacher of the gospel in barmudas. bond, samson. [ ], [i.e. ] p. printed by samuel green upon assignment of samuel sewell, boston : . pages - incorrectly numbered. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng society of friends -- controversial literature. trials (heresy) -- bermuda islands. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a publick tryal of the quakers in barmudas upon the first day of may , . first , the charge against them was openly read containing these particulars : as . that a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true christ , but the false christ , the devil . . that the main end of the quakers meetings in these islands , is to make the lords christ , his holy spirit , his angels , and apostles , all lyars and false witnesses of god. . that the prim-principles of a quaker , are the same held and professed by the beasts , which paul fought with at ephesus . secondly , the whole charge being proved by the testimony of the holy scriptures : was found by the sheriffe , and justices of peace , a true and just charge . thirdly , being found guilty , they are here sentenced , and brought forth unto the deserved execution of the presse . by samson bond late preacher of the gospel in barmudas . hos . . . the revolter is profound to make slaughter . prov. . . proud and haughty scorner is his name . boston in new-england : printed by samuel green , upon assignment of samuel sewall : . the preface to the christian reader . being lately informed , that the quakers had left a paper ( with a gentleman in these islands ) intimating a chalenge to the ministers here , viz. whether the ministers god , or the quakers god , were the true god ; little notice was taken of this their folly : in a short time afterwards , a justice of the peace acquainted me , that a quaker brought him a letter , and would have him deliver it unto me , but he refused to receive it from him : and some few dayes after this , an honest neighbour told me , that the quakers had reported up and down the countrey , s● . that i would as soon take a bear by the tooth , as dispute with them : and withal , that thereby the leading quakers did confirm and increase their party : hereupon i sent unto them ( a synagogue of libertines ) the charge in the title page asserted , [ being answers to three short questions . ] and in the paper ( which was sent the th . day of april . ) they were informed , that i would be ready to prove ( from the holy scriptures ) the charge against them : upon the modest motion of any one or more quakers in these islands , ( on any lecture-day in devon shier-tribe church ) in order to a regular and peaceable disputation , for the investigation of the truth of the true god ; which pap●r the quakers received and accepted . and according to the general directions therein given , they came ( the first day of may following , to the place assigned , ( but without giving me any special notice of it , ) then francis eastlack , a teacher amongst them , moved for a performance of my promise , in reference to the charge ( which he called a chalenge ) under my hand against them : i forthwith told him , that i was ready ( by christs help ) to do it : howbeit , by the way ( as i told them ) i thought it fit to signifie unto them , sc . that as they had accepted the paper which i had sent to them , so they had thereby bound themselves to all the terms and conditions therein expressed : as namely . . that the disputation is to be regular ; that is to say , i am ( in the first place ) to prove the whole charge , without any interruption from any one of you ; that then any one or more of you may ( without interruptions from me ) answer my arguments , or give your assent . . that the disputation is to be peaceable ; that is to say , one person only ( at a time ) is to answer ; that the disputation may not end ( as usually such kind of disputes have done ) in an unprofitable confusion , but to the satisfaction of the numerous , and judiciou● hearers : and that at the end of all , they may judge ( according to the scriptures of truth ) between you and me : let me here pray the reader to take notice , that not any thing said by me ( touching the regular and peaceable disputation ) was gain said by any of them , whose silence was ( by all the hearers ) taken for their full consent : yet , notwithstanding ; herein , they declared themselves most unfaithful , for they frequently interrupted me , more especially , by casting in impertinent objections , ere i ha● half answered this or that scripture , which some one or other of them had proposed ; thereby in design ( as i thought ) to obstruct the special matter , ready to be uttered for the satisfaction of the attentive hearers ; which urged me ( as i must confess ) unadvisedly to say , that what i had , and should then have declared , i would cause to be printed , that full returnes might be given to the objections made , and scriptures wrested by them : saying , if i could not be heard i would be read : herewithal , i cannot deny , but that i have in the returns , inserted sundry things from judicious authors ( for confirmation ) or further explication which i might not then have alledged , though i had not met with any interruption at all : and f●rasmuch as some of them have ( as i am informed ) since said , that their business was not managed aright by them , and that some things were forgotten to be spoken ; not only these but all other things which might seem for their advantage , i have ( in their due places ) set down and answered ; upon the whole i do assure the reader , i should not have given my self this trouble ; had they not ( by their manifold interruptions ) provoked me to make that inconsiderate open promise as above : concerning which many of the hearers have since been my frequent remembrancers ; and probably others may be ready ( on default of performance ) to reflect slanderously upon me , whose reviling rudeness is but too well known : and so farewel , samson bond . this insuing discourse had been printed sooner , had not mr. john foster ( the printer ) been disenabled by a tedious sickness , of which he died. errata . page . line . read doubled . p. . l. . r. assert . p. . l. . for believed , read belied the letter . p. . l. . r. free . p. . l. . for person r. reason . p. l. . r. either . the first part of the charge ; is that a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true christ , but the false christ , the devil . which was proved by four apostolical arguments . arg. . because , jesus christ of nazareth a man approved of god among the people , was and is the true christ , and our only saviour : which is frequently testified in the acts of the apostles : as in act. . ver . , , . ye men of israel , hear these words , jesus of nazareth a man approved of god among you , ye have taken , and by wicked hands have crucified and slain : let all the house of israel know assuredly , that god hath made that same jesus , whom ye have crucified both lord and christ . acts. . , , . be it known unto you all , and unto all the people of israel , that by the name of jesus christ of nazareth , whom ye crucified , whom god raised from the dead , even by him , doth this man stand here before you whole : this is the stone , which was set at nought of your builders , which is become the head of the corner ; neither is there salvation in any other ; for there is none other name ( sc . then the name of jesus christ of nazareth ) under heaven given among men , whereby we must be saved . acts , , , , . god anointed jesus of nazareth , with the holy ghost , and with power : whom they ( jews ) slew and hanged on a ●ree : him god raised up the third day , and shewed him openly : and he commanded us , to preach unto the people , and to testifie that it is he which was ordained of god , to be the judge of quick and dead : to him give all the prophets witness , that through his name whosoever believeth in him , shall receive remission of sins . from these texts of scripture , the st . argument did arise : to wit , if jesus christ of nazareth a man approved of god among the people of israel , be the true christ and only saviour , then a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true christ : but jesus christ of nazareth , a man approved of god among the people , was and is the true christ and our only saviour ; therefore , a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true , but false christ . arg. . ; because the saints of god ( by the direction of his spirit ) have alwayes acknowledged the man jesus christ , to be their true and only savi●ur : as in luk. . , , . , , . and behold , there was a man in jerusalem , whose name was simeon , and it was revealed unto him by the holy ghost , that he should not see death , before he had seen the lords christ ; and he came by spirit into the temple ; and when the parents brought in the child jesus ; then he took him up in his arms , and blessed god , and said , lord , now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace , according to thy word ; for mine eyes have seen thy salvation , which thou hast prepared before the face of all people , &c : joh. . , . then said jesus unto thomas , reach hither thy finger , and behold my hands ; and reach hither thy hand , and thrust it into my side , and be not faithless , but believing : and thomas answered and said unto him ( by the spirit of faith ) my lord and my god. joh. . . and said unto the woman , now we believe , not because of thy saying , for we have heard him ( the man christ , ver . . ) our selves , and we know that this is indeed the christ , the saviour of the world. from these scriptures the second argument was formed , sc . if the saints of god have ( by the holy spirits direction ) alwayes acknowledged , the man jesus christ , to be the true christ , and only saviour : then a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true christ . but the saints of god have ( by the spirits direction ) alwayes acknowled the man jesus christ , for their true and only saviour . therefore a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true but false christ . arg. . because the true christ and our only saviour , did at once ( without us ) in and by his one crucified body on the cross , finish and compleat the work and office of a saviour : as in heb. . , . by the which will we are sanctified ( that is , saved ) through the offering of the body of jesus christ once for all : and this man after he had offered one sacrifice for sins , for ever sate down on the right hand of god ; for by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified . heb. . . forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood , he ( jesus , ver . . ) also himself likewise took part of the same , that through death , he might destroy him that had the power of death , that is , the devil . pet. . . who his own self bare our sins , in his own body on the tre , and in pet. . . for christ also hath once suffered for sins , the just for the unjust ( that he might bring us to god ) being put to death in the flesh , but quickened by the spirit . eph. . . . having abolished in his flesh the enmity , — having slain the enmity in himself on the cross , so making peace : and in chap. . . as christ hath given himself for us , an offering , and a sacrifice to god for a sweet smelling savour . heb. . . but now once in the end of the world , hath he appeared to put away sin , by the sacrifice of himself : and in col. . . in the body of his flesh through death , to present you holy , and unblameable , and unreprovable ●n his sight . from these scriptures the third argument resulted . viz. if the true christ , and our only saviour , did at once ( without us ) in and by his one crucified body on the cross , finish and perfect the work and office of a saviour ; then a quakers pretended saviour within ●im , is not the true christ . but the true christ , and one only saviour , did at once ( without us ) in and by his one crucified body on the cross , finish and perfect the whole work and office of a saviour : therefore a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true , but the false christ . th . argument : because , the true christ , and our only saviour is in heaven above us . as in luk. . , , , . and jesus said unto them ( his apostles ) thus it was written , and thus it behoved christ to suffer , and to rise from the dead the third day . and ye are witnesses of these things . and led them out as far as bethany . and he lift up his hands and blessed them : and it came to pass , while he blessed them , he was parted from them , and carried up into heaven . mark . . so then after the lord had spoken unto them , he was received up into heaven , and sate on the right hand of god. act. . . ye men of galilee , why stand ye gazing into heaven , this same jesus which is taken up from you into heaven , shall so come in like manner , as ye have seen him go into heaven . act. . , . the god of abraham , and of isaac , and of jacob , the god of our fathers hath glorified his son jesus . whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things . heb. . . for christ is not entred into the holy places made with hands , — but into heaven it self , now to appear in the presence of god for us . act . but he ( stephen ) being full of the holy ghost , looking up stedfastly into heaven , and saw the glory of god , and jesus standing at the right hand of god : — and said , behold i see the heavens opened , and the son of man standing on the right hand of god. from these scriptures the fourth argument was formed : sc . if the true christ , and our only saviour be in heaven above us , then a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true christ . but the true christ , and our only saviour is in heaven above us . therefore , a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true but the false christ . lastly , that by the false christ , we are to understand the devil , is plainly proved by comparing , mat. . ver . . with rev. , . in the first text , the true christ calls the false christ a deceiver , if it were possible , shall deceive the very elect ; implying , that the false christ is the greatest deceiver : and in the other text , this great deceiver , which a●ceives the whole world , is called the old serpent , the devil , and satan . here hence this argument arose , so . he that is the great and principal deceiver , is the devil , ( rev. . . ) but the false christ is this deceiver ( mat. . ) ergo , the false christ is the devil : the conclusion ought not to be denied ; to deny it here , were to deny the scriptures of god , from whence it is plainly collected as above . having thus proved the first part , i proceeded to the second part of the charge : to wit , that the main end of ▪ the quakers meetings in these islands , is to make the lords christ , his holy spirit , his angels , and apostles all lyars , and false witnesses of god. being about to prove this , as i had done the former part of the charge : f. eastlack interrupted me ▪ pretending to make some answer to the foregoing arguments : i told him that by mutual consent ( as in the preface is declared ) the whole charge against them , was first to be proved by me , before any answer should be returned by him , or any oth●r of his friends ; therefore , i requested him , that as he had any regard either to truth or honesty , that he would forbear his interruptions ; that i might proceed ( according agreement as above ) to prove the second part of the charge : but his sepulchre being opened , he refused to shut it : whereupon i spake to the assembly , saying , i must let him take his own way , to prevent greater confusion : howbeit instead of answering ( as he pretended the above-mentioned ) arguments , or any of them : he first impertinently runs out , into a bare repetition of some words in the former part of the first chapter of the evangelist john , sc . from the st . verse to the end of the th . verse , which shall be mentioned and considered in their due places : let me note by the way , his after stragling inferences from those verses : to wit , that god the word , took flesh of the virgin mary , and in that flesh suffered death for all men , ( which he put a special remark upon , by repeating it twice ) it was well observed , that he made no mention of christs resurrection , but further said , sc . the word which is god , is christ , the true light , which was manifest in the flesh , and as in him , so in every man that comes into the world , as manifest in them , which quoth he ) it witnessed by john : and withal added , whosoever shall preach any other gospèlis accursed ; and after he had multiplied words to the same end and purpose alone as above ; the ingenious auditors began to mutter at his impertinences , and jumbled confusions : thereupon i called to him , and said , master islay ( so he is commonly called , as afore noteh , viz. islay ) either answer the arguments which have proved the first part of the charge , ( as you pretended , to mask your interrupting of me , or take some answer to what you have said : his first , reply was , the scripture saith , call no man master , i told him the scripture saith , sc . mat. . neither be ye called masters , for one is your master even christ ; which is not to be understood in your unmannerly sense : likewise i told him that he had no cause to quarrel the word [ master ] for you affirm the master , ( even christ ) is within you quakers , making your selves the greatest masters ; so that herein are fulfilled among you , the word of our lord concerning deceivers , namely , that false christs shall arise , and many shall say , i am christ , and shall deceive many , mat. . . further more i said unto him ▪ sc . thou art the master of an assembly , to wit of the synagogue of libertines : which opposed and persecuted the faith of blessed stephen , for believing in jesus christ of nazareth , to be the true christ and only saviour , act. , , , . at this be grew impa●ient , rebuking me , saying . thou didst promise not to interrupt me ; i replied , that i did not interrupt , but help him , sc . to remember that my promise was , not to interrupt him or any of his party , whilest he or any of them , were answering the arguments urged by me , ( as it may appear in the prefixed preface : but h● said , that he did not value the arguments , for they proved nothing , ( thus , he tha● was a party , made himself the determinating judge , ) and then with a throat stretched voice , returned to his former discourse , that the word is christ , the true light in the flesh , sent to save men from sin and death , whose death and sufferings with the effect thereof , we do own and witness , according to the scriptures , as inwardly received within us : yet speaking other whiles of the death , satisfaction and sufferings of christ , the true light , as done within us , for us : to which ( said he ) the scripture testifies repeating these words , but the righteousness which is of faith , speaketh on this wise , say not in thy heart , who shall ascend into heaven ; ( that is to bring christ down from above ) or who shall descend into the deep , ( that is to bring up christ again from the dead ) but what saith it ; the word is nigh thee , even in thy mouth , and in thy heart , that is the word of faith which we preach : after he had rehearsed these ( or most of these ) words , he forthwith inferrd , that the word of faith , was christ , the true light within , and then confidently affirmed , that to preach any other gospel , sc . ( then christ within to be the saviour ) is to be accursed ; which invited him to reflect on me , declaring that i had not in any thing , which was by 〈…〉 ( meaning in the arguments above ) made any mention of christ , as god , and with that saying he ended ( as it 's call'd , his prese●t dispute . forthwith i made some returnes , which i have now put into some better method , which was then much hindred by their confused interruptions but before i lay down those more orderly returnes , let me request the reader to understand , that i have filed off much of the rust and ruggedness of his expressions , which often wearied the christian hearers : for it was not only his , but also his fellow disputants course all along , here and there to steal , and strangely to disorder , ( nay to dismember ) scripture words , out of the evangelist , and the apostles , thereby endeavouring to cover themselves from being discovered ; not pl●inly , nor ho● estly mentioning either chapters or verses , ( william bullock once excepted ) though often called upon but all in vain : they would speak scripture words ( after their usual manner ) darkly and confusedly , thereby the more easily to deceive those with whom the scriptures have any credit ▪ i shall ( at present ) decline any further observation of this their dangerous and designful practice ; and proceed to the above signified method : and . as touching the first chapter of the evangelist john ( with which he began as above ) it treats of the god head of the son alone ( the eternal-word ) from the first verse to the end of the fifth verse : and then of the person of christ ( god-man ) from thence to the end of the chapter , some of these verses ( for satisfaction sake ) i shall touch a little in their order , first , of the eternal word , the godhead of the son , ( as in ver . , , ) in the beginning was the word , and the word was with god , and the word was god ▪ the same was in the beginning with god ; all things were made by him , and without him was not any thing made that was made . these verses denote to us , that its only the godhead of the son , that did create . ver . . the word was made flesh , and dwelt among us , i. e. whole christ , god man in one person ; as such , he created nothing , only as god , so he created all things . as the evangelist here , so doth paul to the col●ssians ( chap. . . ) speak distinctly of the god head of the son alone , and also distinctly of him as personal christ , viz. by him were all things created , that are in heaven , and that are in earth , visible and invisible , whether they be thrones or dominions , or principaliliti●s or powers ; all things were created by him , and for him : and he is before all things , and by him all things consist , ( ver . ) so he is the creator . again , ver . . paul speaks distinctly also of christ , as christ : for so ( as noted before ) he is no creator , because ( so considered ) he is in part a creature : ho● beit as christ he is the head and saviour , ( ephes . . . ) of the body , the church : who is the beginning , and first born from the dead , that in all things he ( christ god-man ) might have preheminence : for it pleased the father that in him should all fulness dwell , ( and ver . ) having made peace through the blood of his cross : and in the body of his fl●sh through death , to present you holy and unblameable , and unreprovable in his fight , ( ver . . ) if ye continue in the faith ( that is in the faith of the peace made through the blood of his cross , and body of his flesh through death ) grounded and rooted , &c. this distribution ( both by the evangelist and apostle ) was not understood by this disputant eastl●ck : for in all his foregoing discourse , his design was to m●ke the hearers believe , that the eternal word , the godhead of the son ( ●s distinct from the manhood of christ ) is the true christ , and only saviour ; and consequently , a quakers pretended saviour within him is the true , not the false christ : and hereunto agrees his words so frequently repeated by him , viz. god was manifest in the flesh , ( that is , as to their darkened understanding ) in all man kind of flesh ; which gross error shall be ( in its proper place ) considered : in the next place , this disputants more lax and general expressions shall receive some answers . . i do acknowledge with him , that the [ word ] took flesh of the virgin , and that he suffered without the gates of jerusalem ; howbeit , as it comes from a teaching quaker , it is undoubtedly no other , then a deceitful shifting of the matter in question : yet i am ready to grant , that f. e. and his partners may believe , that there was such a man , who ( as histories mention ) took flesh , and was born of the virgin mary , and suffered death without the gates of jerusalem , about sixteen hundred years ago : alas , how many turks and jews are there that know and believe all this ; yet they do no more believe jesus of nazereth , to be the true christ , and only saviour , then a teaching , seducing quaker doth : nay , such a quaker attributes no more soul saving merit to the holy body of jesus christ , then to the body of a turk or a jew : therefore it s not safe to put any other construction upon his acknowledgement above , then a deceitful shifting the business in hand , that he might thereby the more easily hoodwink the hearer ; for his discourse had no other tendency , then to make us believe , that the true christ and saviour was only in ( not at all of ) the body of christs flesh : . i do again acknowledge with him , sc . that the effects of christs death and sufferings , are to be inwardly witnessed , as received within us : and if so , then there must be a cause of these effects inwardly received , as previous and anticedent to them , to wit , the death and sufferings of the one man jesus christ ( as in the third argument ) which is therefore necessarily finished , and perfected already by the one crucified body of jesus of nazareth , upon the cross ( without us ) for us ; which in right reason must needs be , before the effects thereof could be revealed in us , and so inwardly witnessed ; though this were the thing i argued for , yet it was strongly opposed by them all , ( as may afterwards appear ) making those effects within them , the true christ , and their only saviour . now i proceed to the texts of scripture repeated by f. e. which shall be considered in order as he uttered them . john . . that was the true light , which lighteneth every man that cometh into the world : this scripture he more especially insisted on , to prove christ to be that true light , and that light to be the only saviour , which ( as he said ) is in every man , that cometh into the world : whence he argued , that a quakers pretended saviour within him , is the true , and not the false christ . answ . it s true , that by [ light ] in that place of scripture , the true christ , and our only saviour , is meant , iohn . . and although it be likewise true , ( in a true sence ) that every man that cometh into the world , is enlightened by christ ( i. e. with reason ) the son of god , as he is the eternal word that made the world : yet , the evangilist hath not in that text asserted , that there is a light ( or enlightening ) in every man , as he cometh into the world , which is the true christ , and our only saviour ; so that , thou hast plainly and openly belied that holy man io●r , in saying of him as above , that he so witnessed ; namely , that the light , ( or inlighting ) in every man , as he comes into the world , is the true christ , and mans only saviour : for , this evangelist witnesseth otherwis● , as ( in ver . . ) he evidently affirms the light ( in ver . . ) to be the man jesus , and as such , he never was ( nor can be ) in any man : so witnesseth the witness bearer , whom we are to believe , before a seducing quaker . . thou ( f. e. ) didst in thy discourse effectually affirm christ to be the light , and the light in every man to be the christ , implying thereby , sc . what might be truly spoken of the one , might be also so spoken of the other : here hence then it must follow , that the light within a quaker , was born in bethlehem , laid in a manger , hanged upon a tree , and gave up the ghost ; all these were truly and properly spoken of the true christ ( who is the light of the world : now , what can be more absurd and ●alse , then to affirm these things of the light , in every man that cometh into the world by natural generation . . it being an enlightning which is communicated ( as in ver . . ) to every man that comes into the world ( which comprehends both elect , and reprobate ) but the true christ is not in reprobates ( cor , . : ) therefore the true christ is not ( as in your sence ) in every man that comes into the world , and consequently not in teaching , seducing quakers . text d . tim . . great is the mystery of godliness , god was manifest in the flesh . hence , he ( f. e. ) inferr'd that the godhead only , as manifest in the flesh , is the true christ and only saviour ; and withal he effectually said , that the light in every man that comes into the world , ( as it is manifest in every man ) i● the same christ ( sc . the godhead ) and as in the body of christs flesh , so in the body of every mans flesh ( i. e. god manifest in the flesh , sc . flesh indefinitely ) and so by a consequence of his own blaspheming , a quakers pretended saviour within him , is the true , not the false christ . answ . nothing can be more evident then that this disputant would , have had the hearers to believe , that the godhead ( as distinct from christs being a man ) is the true christ and only saviour : surely this is new divinity ; which is diffe●ing and qui●e another gospel , then that of the apostles , as in ( mat. . . ) thou ( not the godhead alo●e in thee ) but thou ( the son of man , ver . . ) art the son of the living god. again , after christs ascention and glorification in heaven above , the apostles confess him , in hese words , ( act. . . ) let al the house of israel know assaredly , that god hath made that same iesus ( not the godhead only manifest in jesus , but ) that same iesus , whom 〈◊〉 crucified both lord and christ : consider i pray , did the iews ever crucifie your feigned godhead-light within : i could heartily wish , that all ye would feelingly lay to heart , what our blessed lord saith in this case , ( luk. . , . ) whosoever shall confess me ( not the godhead only in me , but me ) before men , him shall the son of man also confess before the angels of god : but he that denieth me ( the son of man ) shall be denied before the angels of god : thus the holy apostles confessed before men , the son of man ( iesus of nazareth ) to be the true christ , and their only saviour , and in the faith thereof , they both lived and died . f. e. let me ask thee this question : sc . if the godhead of the son ( considered as distinct from his being a man ) be the true christ and saviour ; how , or to whom was he manifested ? its impossible to imagine , that the godhead ( which is invisible and incomprehensible ) can be manifested to the external senses of men ; but the true christ , and our only saviour , was thus manifested ; as it is witnessed by christs faithful apostles ( sc . in ioh. chap. . ver . . , . ) there , speaking of the lord jesus christ , personally god man , they declare ; that which was from the beginning , which we have heard , which we have seen , which we have looked upon , and our hands have handled of the word of life . note here , that the blessed apostles testifie , that they had heard and seen jesus christ ( the true and only saviour ) looking upon him , and handled him , by being in his company : but as for your idol ( light-christ ) it was never visible , but ever invisible ; for ye say , it is within only , so that ( call it what ye will ) you , nor any man else , can say what it is , except a whimsey moreover , l●t it be considered , how these words ( god was manifested in the flesh ) are explained by the lord christ himself , ( joh. . ) this beginning of miracles did iesus in cana of galilee , and manifested forth his glory ( that is , his godhead to faith ) by this miracle ( of turning water into wine ) the glory of the godhead was manifested in the ho●y of his flesh : that is to say , the lord christ did by that ( and other miracles which he wrought in the sight of the beholders ) make it manifest , that he was true god , and true man in one person : ( which is so great a mystery , that neither saints nor angels are able to comprehend it ) this is indeed the genuine sense of that scripture , [ sc . great is the mystery , god was manifest in the flesh . ] and to force it to speak otherwise , is a most wretched and sinful wresting of the text ; but the disputant being as bold as blind , added as aforesaid ; viz. that to preach any other gospel , is to be accursed ; meaning , to preach otherwise , then that the godhead only in the flesh , ( all mankind fl●sh ) to be the true christ , and only saviour , is to be accursed ; these words were ( being his third text of scripture ) repeated by him ; shall now be considered , whether wrested or no. tent d. gal. . , . if any man preach any other gospel unto you , then that which we have preached unto you , and ye have received , let him be accursed . ans . i pray thee frances , what was the name of that apostle , who preached the godhead ( as distinct from christs manhood ) to be the true christ , and only saviour ? oh , thou poor , filly man , was there ever ( or will there ever be ) remission of sins preached by the spirit , but by and through the one man jesus christ ; the apostle paul heb. . . saith ( in effect ) to preach otherwise , is to despite the spirit of grace , even the doctrine of the spirit , rom. . . much more the grace of god , and the gift by grace , which is by one man jesus christ , hath abounded unto many : i shall let this pass a little , and proceed to a consideration of the text it self . and for our so doing , this question doth necessarily arise : quest . what was the gospel that paul preached ? answ . he preached the faith ( i. e. the gospel of faith ) which once he destroyed and persecuted , gal. . . now , the faith which paul once persecuted was , the faith of believing in jesus of nazareth the man approved of god among the people , act. . . to be the true christ and our only saviour ; then by good consequence the gospel which the apostle preached , was to believe in the name jesus christ of nazareth , to be the true christ , & our only saviour ( and justifier in the sight of god , without the works of law in or by us . ) to clear this answer yet a little further , let pauls own confession be observed , act. . . and i persecuted this way ( namely , of believing in jesus of nazareth , to be the true christ and only saviour ) unto the death , binding an●d delivering into the prisons both men and women , ver . . and i heard a voice , saying unto me , saul , saul , why persecutest thou me ? ver . . and i answered , who art thou lord ? and he said unto me , i am jesus of nazareth ( not the godhead only in jesus of nazareth ) whom thou persecutest : furthermore , at ver . . and he ( ananias ) said the god of our fathers hath chosen thee ( paul ) that thou shouldest know his will , and see that just one , and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth , ver . . for thou shalt be a witness unto all men , of what thou hast seen and heard . and accordingly the apostle did bear open and abundant witness to that just one , ( even jesus of nazareth to be the true christ and our only saviour ) this great t●uth is yet further evident , in the th . chapter of the acts , ver . . of this mans ( davids ) seed , hath god according to his promise raised unto israel , a saviour jesus ; him ( ver . . they ( sc . the rulers in ierusalem ) condemned , ver . . and slew , and took him down from the tree , and ver . , laid him in a sepulchre : but ver . . god raised him from the dead ; and he was ver . . seen many dayes of them , that came up with him , from galilee to ierusalem , who are his witnesses to the people ; that through this [ man ] ( not the godhead only in the man ) is preached unto you the forgiveness o● sins ; and by him ( this man ) all that believe are justified from all things , ver . . . against the blessed doctrine of the gospel , the unbelieving iews were ( as ye teaching quakers are ) filled with envy , and spake against those things , which were spoken by paul , contradicting and blaspheming , ver . . hereupon , ver . . paul and barnabas waxed bold , and said , seeing ye put [ it ] ( sc . faith in the man jesus christ of nazareth , slain and raised from the dead ) from you , and judge ( o , seducing quakers read and tremble ) your selves unworthy of everlasting life . here hence , it is most plain , that the apostles preached faith in jesus of nazareth a man ( not the godhead only in the man ) approved of god among the people , to be the true christ and our only saviour ; but never did they ( nor any of the apostles of god ) preach faith only in the godhead ( distinct from christs manhood ) to be the true christ , and only saviour ; against this new coined doctrine , no● only the apostles , but the holy ghost himself bears express witness , as in act. . , , . the god of our fathers raised up iesus , whom ye slew and hanged upon a tree , him hath god exalted with his right hand to be a prince and a saviour , for to give repentance and forgiveness of sins , and we ( the apostles ) are his witnesses of these things , and so is also the holy ghost . the whole is , if any man preach any other gospel , then what the apostle preached , he is accursed ; but ye ( teaching and seducing quakers ) do plainly preach another gospel ; therefore ye that preach it , and they that receive it , are accursed , by the testimony of gods own spirit , gal. . , . and consequently thou f. e. hast wrested that ( as other ) text of scripture , which ( without repentance ) will be to thy destruction , pet. . . the words of the fourth scripture ( which he repeated with more then ordinary state and confidence ) comes next to be considered : th text. rom. . , , . but the righteousness which is of faith , speaketh on this wife , say not in thy heart , who shall ascend into heaven ) that is to bring christ down from above ) or , who shall descend into the deep ; that is to bring up christ again from the 〈◊〉 : but what saith it , the word is nigh thee , even in thy mouth , and in thy hear● that it , the word of faith , which we preach . answ . . though the fifth and ninth verses , doth essentially appertain to the verses above , yet he made no mention of either of them ; their omission being for his turn . . i do not apprehend how those verses do answer the arguments ( or any one of them ) which proved a quakers pretended saviour within him , to be the false christ , the devil ; nor how they prove their preterded saviour within to be the true christ . . for the right understanding of the above repeated , , , verses we must ( first of all ) take in the th . verse , for moses describeth the righteousness which is of the l●w , that the man that doth these things , shall live by them , lev. ● . . so that , in these verses , the apostle paul compare the righteousness of the law , and the righteousness of faith together : and thereby shews that the righteousness of the law is not only uncertain , but also rom. . impossible ; but the righteousness of faith , is both certain and possible : for . it doth forbid all doubting about eternal life , because christ is ascended up into heaven for us , in our room and stead . . it forbids all fear of being tormented in hell ; because christ being risen from the dead , hath overcome eternal death for us , in our place and stead ( being our surety ) which is as much , as if paul had said , the righteousness of faith , fetcheth a remedy against doubts of salvation , for that christ is personally ascended up into heaven , and hath taken possession of it , in our names , and there he maketh intercession for us ; ( heb. . . chap. . . ) and if so , ( as truly so it is ) we must then deny christs ascention ( which is to bring him down from above ) if we doubt or question in our hearts , how to be saved : and as the righteousness of faith , is a remedy against doubts of salvation : so , is it also against fears of condemnation : for , if christ have dyed , and be raised from [ the deep ] the grave , then hath he thereby gotten the victory over s●n , death , hell , and satan : therefore to ●ear condemnation , what is it else , but to deny christs death , or descertion into the deep ; and so , to bring him back again to the cross and grave . moreover , the apostle paul in these verses , gives us a plain interpretation , of what moses had elegantly propounded by a figure , in deut. . , , , . from whence we are taught , that both moses and paul presupposed a twofold pressure upon the spirits of sinners , as . how they may enter into heaven : and . how they may avoid hell , these two moses and paul ( inspired of god ) do shew , to be taken away by the righteousness of faith ; the first is removed , because we believe the ascertion of christ is to heaven for us : and the second also , because we believe christs resurrection from the dead for us ; whereby the lord christ demonstrated his victory over hell , death , &c. in our room and names . it may hence be safely argued , that both moses and paul do conclude , that if any man seeks justification by the righteousness of the law , ( as most quakers do ) he must needs be in continual fear of hell , and despair of heaven : but he that ( through free grace ) believeth that the lord christ is risen from the dead , ascended up into heaven for him , in his place and stead , is freed from both . the sum of all , is this : namely , that jesus christ rose from the dead , for us , and ascended up into heaven for us : and before either ( which must be implied ) lived and died for us : but , he that believes not the descention , and the ascention of the lord jesus christ for him , but seeketh justification by the works of the law ; he doth ( in effect ) deny the resurrection , and ascention of jesus christ ; which to do , were ( as much as in him lies ) to bring christ down from above , and likewise to bring him up again from the deep . now tell me frances , whither these verses sc . the th . and th . so triumphingly repeated by thee , do not plainly prove , the true christ , and our only saviour to be in heaven , above us : surely nothing can be more clearly proved , and consequently ( by the scriptures alledged by thee ) a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the true but the false christ : . as the righteousness of faith is certain , from the th . and th : verses , so it is possible from the th . verse which comes now ( in like manner ) under consideration . ver. . but what saith [ it , ] ( meaning , the righteousness of faith ) the word is nigh thee , even in they mouth , and in thy heart , that is the word of faith which we preach . ver. . that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the lord jesus , and shalt believe in thine heart , that god hath raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved . answ . touching the th . verse , there are some queries , which require solutions . qu. what is meant by righteousness of faith ? sol. . by righteousness , is meant , that righteousness which obtains acceptance , justification and salvation with god , which is the righteousness alone of the lord jesus of nazareth , which he wrought out in his own personal-obedience and sufferings ( years since ) upon the cross . . by the righteousness of faith , is meant a right believing in the alone righteousness of this jesus of nazareth for acceptance , justification , and salvation with god. qu. . what , by the word faith ? sol. we are to understand , an evangelical ( not legal ) word : for , it is a word of faith , the same with the righteousness of faith above defined , and which agrees with the apostles explication , ver . . that is ( saith he ) the word of faith which we preach ; now the apostles preached no other word of faith , then the righteousness of faith afore expressed , ( and confirmed by the four arguments ) besides , there are other scriptures of infallible truth , evidencing the same : as rom. . ver . . separate unto the gospel of christ , ver . . concerning his son jesus christ our lord , ver . . declared to be the son of god with power , according to the spirit of holiness , by the resurrection from the dead : likewise in chap. . . who was delivered , ( i. e. to death ) for our offences , and was raised up again for our justification : and in cor. . . i declare unto you , the gospel which i preached unto you : what was that gospel , the apostle tells us ? ver . . how that christ died for our sins , according to the scriptures . ver . . and that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures , the last mentioned scriptures do illustrate the righteousness of faith , and word of faith preached ( in the abovesaid verses . . ) and therefore cannot possibly be understood for a quakers pretended saviour within him ( as this disputant f. e. would make us believe . ) qu. . how is this preached word ( or righteousness ) of faith , said to be night , even in the mouth , and in the heart . sol. it s resolved by the apostle in ver . , . that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the lord jesus , and shalt believe in thine heart , that god hath raised him from the dead , thou shalt be saved . that is to say ; the word of faith preached , is nigh in our mouths : when we confess before men , sc . that we believe that that righteousness , whereby we are accepted of god , justified and saved , is the only righteousness of jesus christ of nazareth , which he wrought out in his personal obedience , and sufferings upon the cross ( without us ) for us : and it is nigh in our hearts , when this confession proceeds from a right perswasion ingrafted an planted in our hearts by the spirit of faith , as it s testified by paul , ver . . for ( saith he ) with the heart man believeth unto righteousness , ( i. e. unto the righteousness of faith in jesus christ of nazareth ) ver . and with the mouth confession ( sc . of the same righteousness ) is made unto salvation . thus according to the command of jesus christ of nazareth , iohn . . i have ( as ye may see ) searched the scriptures of god , for the solution here asserted ; but where do ye , teaching quakers , search son your gospel word of faith : surely , not in th● scriptures of truth without , but at your oracle ( that idol-light tender part ) within , which ye falsly call the everlasting gospel , and eternal word , which , ( as ye affirm ) was never made flesh contrary to ioh. . ver . . o thou idol light within , let me tell thee , though many antichrists have done villanously , yet thou in villanies surmount them all : for as jerusalem once justified sodom ; so , thou light within , dost justifie the vilest antichrists , that are this day in the world ; for where doth that teaching quaker dwell ? what is his name ? who doth in his heart believe , and with his mouth confess that the righteousness whereby he is accepted of god , justified in his sight , and saved , is the righteousness alone of iesus christ of nazareth , which he wrought out in his own and only personal obedience , and sufferings in the world , sixteen hundred years ago : or , that doth believe and confess , that god , ( of his free grace and mercy ) giveth faith in this righteousness of jesus christ , which is by his father imputed or reckoned to believers for their justification before god : or , do believe and confess that in this reckoning or imputation there is a reality ; undoubtedly , there 's nothing more inconsistent ( with the faith and confession ) of teaching quakers , then these most evident gospel principles of infallible truth ; and therefore they are ( as i may safely avouch ) the greatest antichrists ( of this age ) on earth , and ordained to the greatest condemnation , jude ver . , . i do now proceed to consider his fifth scripture , alledged , to prove a quakers pretended ●aviour within him , to be the true , not the false christ . text . cor. . . know ye not your own selves , how that jesus christ is in you , except ye be reprobates . ans . . by the way , this text of scripture , layes the axe to the root of your new coined religion , and wounds it to death : which may be thus argued ; if the light which is ( by natural generation ) in reprobates coming into the world , be not the true christ , then the light that is in every man which comes into the world ( by natural generation ) is not the true christ : but the light which is by natural generation in reprobates , is not the true christ , as above , ergo , the light that is in every man , which comes into the world , ( is not according to your selves ) the true christ . . i answered , that this text of scripture understand , not the person of christ ( as such , he is the true christ , and our only saviour ) but the work of the spirit of faith , whereof personal christ is the author : for here the apostle frames an argument , to prove the mighty work ( or effect ) of the spirit in his corinthians , as he had before affirmed to be in them , ver . . since ye seek a proof of christ speaking in me , which to you-ward is not weak ( i. e. in operation ) but is [ mighty ] in you . now , in what sense christ was in paul speaking , in that same sense was christ in the corinthians : but christ spake in paul only by the might ( or power ) of his spirit , is mighty in you , sc . christs speaking in paul to the corinthians , was [ mighty ] ( an effect of the spirit ) in them this matter may appear somewhat clearer , if we consider the same apostle to the g●latians , gal. . . for he ( the holy ghost ) that wrought effectually in peter to the apostleship of the circumcision , the same was mighty in me towards the gentiles : ( such were the corinthians ) the phrases ( of effectual working in peter , and was mighty in paul ) do only signifie the effectual operation of christs spirit in both the apostles : so that paul affirming , as in ver . . above , that christ was mighty in the corinthians ; it s as much as if he had said , christ hath effectually wrought by his spirit , the mighty work of faith in you ( corinthians ) by my ministry ; which the apostles makes to be the proof of christ speaking in him , which in the th , verse above , he refers ( as it were ) to their own experience : saying , examine your selves , prove your own selves , whether ye be in the faith ) that is , believing in christ , the object apprehended by faith ) know ye not your own selves , how that iesus christ is in you , except ye be reprobates . qu. how is that iesus christ in you ? answ . to wit , by faith , as in the former part of the same verse , which is a clear interpretation of the latter part , sc . christ in you ; again , it s not rational to imagine that christ in the th . verse , could be otherwise in the corinthians , then he was in the foregoing d. verse , by reason of their dependance each on the other : now , in the d. verse christ was in the corinthians only , by the mighty work of the spirit of faith ; for even so , the word [ mighty ] doth furthermore import , as in eph. . . who believe according to the working of his [ mighty ] power : but no work or effect of the spirit , how mighty or powerful soever in us , either is , or can be christ personal , the true and only saviour . to explain these words ( christ in you ) a little more ; we must take good notice , that there are three things expressed by the name of jesus christ . . christ personal : col. . , . not after christ , for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the godhead bodily ( or personally : cor. . . in the person of christ : and mat. . . i am innocent of the blood of this just person , so the man jesus christ , who spake by the inspiration of god , tim . . . christs mystical , cor. . . so also is christ ( i. e. the church ) call'd the body of christ ver . . which body of christ , is the church , col. . . which is christ mystical as above . . christ operative , col. . . compared with eph. . . through the faith of the operation of god : that christ may dwell in your hearts by faith : forasmuch as faith is the operation of god ( in christ ) it s therefore called christ operative , in which sense only . christ is said to be ( in u● . ) as the sun is in the eye by its beams ; so , iesus christ ( as the author , or fi●st efficient ) is in us by the operated graces of his spirit ; hence it necessarily follows , that christ personal ( the only saviour ) is not in us ; nor christ mystical ( the church ) is in us : this is so plain , that there is no need of evidence , for , as christ personal is the head saving , so christ mystical is the body-saved , eph. . . therefore neither the one , nor the other can be said to be in us : then , . it s christ operative only ▪ that is in the saints , t is true , that christ personal in the first efficiency of gracious operations in the heart , which ( in scripture ) are sometime called christ in you : the cause being put for the effect , by a metonimy : a word ( as i said to f. e. ) which thou understandest no more then the hour-glass that 's before me : to which he readily replied , saying , we abhor hour-glasses , pulpits and cushens ; i told him , that preaching in a pulpit , was a warranted practice , neh. . . and ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood , which they had made for the purpose . but ( quoth he ) ezra had not a cushen : i askt him how he knew that ? to which he made no answer , but whither the holy scribe , had , or had not a cushen his familiar ( the glo worme light within ) bid him to say con●idently ( though blindly ) that ezra had no cushen : i shall here take up an expression which i had almost forgotten , which this disputant f. e. doubted in his discourse ; namely ( that the word took flesh of the virgin , and in that flesh died for all men ) though this notion pleased him so well , as to make a deliberate repetition of it : yea , he did not pretend scripture for its confirmation ; and therefore i could not assuredly know , whether he said it , as an arminian , or as a quaker : but i am apt to think , that he spake it in imitation of his friends , because of the word [ in. ] and [ in ] that flesh died for all men ; in that flesh , runs quaker-like , this being some part of their new-divinity . that god sent christ to save all men from sin and death ( as he f. e. said ) whose sufferings , sacrifice , mediation , intercession and offices ( or words to this effect ) we do own & witness as inwardly wrought and performed in us , and for us : and there is ( as they further aver ) a divine elect seed in the saints , which is the true christ ( still the idol-light within ) and suffers under sin in them , and is to be raised of a justification and righteousness of the elect seed within ; so that according to their divinity , christs bodily sufferings in and by the flesh , which he took of the virgin , signifies nothing for our justification in the sight of god : whereas these are new , self-devised imaginations , whereof no mention is made in the inspired scriptures of truth : i grant , that some scriptures are by them pretended for evidence ( which perhaps are some of the things ( as in the preface ) said by them to have been forgotten ) sc . amos . ● . behold , i am pressed under you , as a cart is pressed , and in gen. . ver . . it repented the lord that he made man on the earth , and it grieved him at the heart , and gal. . . to abraham and to his seed were the promises made , and to seeds as of many , but as of one , and to thy seed , which is christ , ( this say they ) is to be understood of an elect-seed within ) also in heb. ver . . seeing they crucifie to themselves the son of god afresh . answ . as to the two first texts ( sc . amos . . & gen. . . ) it is a well known truth , that god is unchangeable ; and as god 〈◊〉 him●elf unchangeably the same , so this cannot be spoken properly of hi● , nor is it thus to be understood ; as if god in those wicked men rep●nted , or was pressed down in them : neither is it so expressed in scripture : but god is said to be grieved for , and pressed down under the abo●inations of the wicked ; because , when through his prophets and ministers being rejected , in them so sent forth by him , he is said ( in the texts above ) to be grieved for , and pressed down under their wickedness : this interpretation , agreeth with the testimony of stephen ( act. . , . ) where their persecuting the prophets , their betraying and murthering the just one , and rejecting the testimony of his chosen witnesses , is called a resisting the holy ghost ; as for the third text above , sc . gal. . . this scripture only affirms : that christ , as he is the seed of abraham , is the one eminent seed to whom the promise belongs : what the promise was , the apostle sets down ver . . in thee shall all nations he blessed ; this promise is , act. . . mentioned by peter , as spoken of that jesus whom the jews delivered up in the presence of pilate ; and not otherwise is it to be found in scripture that jesus christ is called the seed to whom the promise belongs : for this is that seed of the woman , which god promised , gen. . and in the fulness of time ) as god promised ) 〈◊〉 forth made 〈◊〉 a woman , gal. ver . this is the personal seed christ , which was never in any man : but your quakerismes of anti scriptural divini●y ; to wit , 〈◊〉 ligh● in man , to be the elect-seed , the suffering christ 〈…〉 ; these , and such notions , are hatcht only in your own 〈…〉 : for , which of all the saints of old , ever spoke or wrote such divinity ? did the saints of old build upon any other foundation then the prephets and apostles , jesus christ himself being the chief 〈◊〉 , eph. ● which is set at nought by such builders , as teaching quakers are : consider , was there ever any other elect-seed , called the true christ , our only saviour , but that which god revealed to adam-fallen , gen. . . : and surely , in vain was that divine revelation from the father , if the 〈◊〉 within adam ( as the quakers prare ) would have shewn it to him . again , that your light within , cannot be the promised seed of the woman ( the bruised heel ) for as such , the seed is a creature : but the light within ( which ye call the elect-seed ) is according to the teaching quakers , the everlasting gospel , and eternal word , as such it is increa●e , and so it is god the promiser , not the promised seed . moreover , the seed preached and promised to abraham , was that one eminent seed , in whom all nations should be blessed , as above : which seed the same apostle calls , in cer. . . the person of christ : but your elect seed within , is not ( by your own acknowledgement ) a personal christ , or seed : o when will ye ( blind leaders of the blind ) blush and tremble at your accursed gospel within , which the lord hath cursed with a reiterated curse , ( as in gal. . , . before explained ) as for the fourth text above , sc . heb. . ver . . the apostle doth not ( in this place ) say : they that crucifie the son of god [ in ] themselves , but [ to ] themselves : that 〈◊〉 to say , they who have been inlightned by the holy ghost , if such fall away , they crucifie the efficacy of his death to themselves : and in so doing , it is impossible to renew them again to repentance , because rejecting the son of god ( jesus of nazareth ) who is the only propitia●ory sacrifice for the remission of sins ; there remaineth to them , no more sacrifice for sin , and so no remission : now , ( o ye teaching quakers especially ) are not ye of that sort of notorious sinners , meant in that text ( heb. . , . which is by you often used in defence of your cause : let me parly a little with you , have not you heretofore made some profession of jesus christ of nazareth , to have been the true christ , and your only saviour ? and are ye not now apostatised , and fallen away from this your profession of faith ? if so , ye then are in the number of those sinners , that commit the great sin , called as above , a crucifying of the son of god afresh , and a putting him to open shame : that is to say , ye ( as much as in you lieth ) do it now , that christ the son of god is in heaven glorified , and were the lord jesus christ of nazareth here upon earth again , ye most certainly would do your utmost to crucifie him again : for , that malitious spirit possesseth such wretched sinners ( as ye quakers cannot truly deny your selves to be ) which possessed those jews who were the very betrayers and murtherers of our lord jesus christ : oh , it s most manifest , that ye are of that sort of sinners , who by their sinning are said , to have trodden under foot the son of god , and have counted the blood of the covenant , wherewith ye were sanctified ( i. e. externally , or as to the opinion once of men ) an unholy ( common or vile ) thing , heb. . . that i may clear this great thing , yet a little more : let me crave leave to ask ( of you quakers ) one serious question : viz. have not ye heretofore professed ( as in act. . . ) repentance towards god , and faith towards our lord jesus christ : though this cannot be gainsaid with any truth : yet how apparent is it , that ye are wilfully gone back from this faith and repentance ? consider now i pray you , your declared d●om , heb. . . for , i● we sin witfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth ; there remains no more sacrifice for sin : that is , for wilful sinners against received light of knowledge , casting off the sacrifice of that one crucified christ upon the cross , with which they once seemed to close ; god will never provide them another sacrifice for sin ; undoubtedly , ye are ( at present of those apostates , which do not only refuse to choose that grace of the gospel ( which abounds to many by the one man jesus christ , rom. . . but ye refuse it after a seeming choice of it ; and are therefore said ( in the close of the th . verse , above ) to have dono despight to the spirit of grace : why , the same verse tells us , because the son of god is trodden under foot , the same apostle further tells us , why , heb. . ver . . as aforesaid , they crucified to themselves the son of god afresh , and put him to an open shame , i. e. by being ashamed of the true christ , and turning away from him , ( as ye are and do ) this , oh this , is to put the blessed son of god to an open shame : and even this is to do despight to the spirit of grace : and shall they who despite the spirit of grace , ever find the benef● of gospel grace ? the 〈…〉 this , that the scriptures of truth , do plainly charge the generality of quakers , with the guilt of the sin against the holy ghost : because they have sinned wil●●lly after a profession openly made 〈…〉 in the lord christ ( 〈◊〉 of the virgin mary in the city of da●● 〈…〉 , . . to be the true christ , and their only saviour : and therefore 〈…〉 , so do ye now crucifie ( not in , but ) to your 〈…〉 son of god a●resh , and put him to an open shame : oh , that 〈◊〉 ( i do heardly wish it ) would bring these repeated plain dealings effectually home to your hearts ; remembring from whence ye are fallen , and 〈◊〉 , and do the first works , rev. . . lastly , as it is above noted : in what sense this disputant f. e. intended the fore-asserted notions ( sc . that the word took flesh , and in that flesh dyed for all men ) i could not certainly determine , nor could ( as i am perswaded ) he himself : as it may appear , by the answer he then made to a question , which i put unto him : ●o wit , quest . whether he ( f. e. ) did believe , that jesus christ of nazareth , the man approved of god among the people : and whom the jews slew , and god raised from the dead , and also received up into heaven , were the true christ , and his only saviour ? he forthwi●h answered ; that be did believe it : capt. bascomb then called to him saying , thou wilt deny 〈…〉 tomorrow : and withal i likewise told him that by this his open confession of the true faith , he had openly declared himself to be a christian and no quaker and i furthermore said to him , that he had ( by that gospel confession of faith ) manifestly contradicted what he had contended for in his present discourse ( called disputation ) and that he had also thereby confirmed the first part of the charge against them , namely , that a quakers pretended saviour within him , was not the true christ , but the false christ . and at the same time nathaniel bethel spake to him ; saying , francis , you were ( not long since ) of another faith , or of another opinion ; for you told my wife , that if she did believe in any other christ , then in that christ which was within her , she would be damne● ; but francis ( jesuite-like ) openly denied , that he had spoken any such words to his wise , thereupon nathaniel bethel replied to him ( in the face of the congregation ) that he would depose , what he had declared to be a truth . since that time , i have been informed of the occasion , which invited these words from the sad-quaker : it was thus , discoursing of the old brigham ( a man of the fifth-monarchy perswasion ) who said , he hoped to live to see jesus christ on the earth , and to shake him by the hand ; then f. e. said , but he ( sc . brigham ) should be first sure , that jesus christ had a hand : bethels wife then told him , that christ had now a hand : for i do ( said she ) believe that christ hath now the same body in heaven , which he had when he was upon the earth : at this expression of her faith , this frank-quaker was offended , and could not forbear , but in plain terms , told her , that she was a blasphemer ( or , had spoken blasphemy ) and withal he further said unto her as above , to wit , that if she believed in any other christ , then in that christ which was within her , she would be damned : o most horrid quakerisme , dig'd out of the bottomless pit , from whence thou hast received thy ordination to be a teaching , seducing , and lying quaker : for francis , thou knowest both this man and his wife , to be persons of good name , credit , and of honest reputation in this country , and therefore worthy to be believed , before thy self : oh that the lord would give thee grace to repent of thy evident wickedness , and grievous god provoking blasphemy , ( proceeding from the false christ within thee ) which undoubtedly thou hast wretchedly aggravated , by making ( as much as in thee lay ) this faithful witness , an open lyar : and that ( as most of the christian hearers j●dged ) contrary to the testimony of the render part ( thy light-christ-conse●●nce ) within : oh , that i could prevailingly advise thee , to think how deservedly the dreadful words of the holy apostle , act. . . may be charged on thee , viz. they ( the jews ) were filled with envy , and spake against those things which were spoken by paul , contradicting and blaspheming : for , . the manner of thy words ( as above ) plainly declare , that thou were filled with envy . . the matter of her words , was the same with the thing spoken by paul , not only in ver . , . but also in chap. . . . the god of our fathers hath glorified his son jesus , whom the heaven must receive , until the times of restitution of all things ; so that thou wert not only filled with envy , but with blas●hemous contradictions ; now francis , this being thy case truly stated , hast thou not indeed cause to repent over thy false-christ that hath ( as above ) filled thy heart with envy , and thy tongue with blasp●●my , against the the truth of god believed and confesse● by that good woman above . by the way , i may not omit ( capt bascombes m●tion ma●e unto me ( upon the confession of f. e. his faith above , &c. that jesus of nazareth was received up into heaven : to ask him where heaven was ; ( it seems the captain knew , that the teaching quakers had jesuitical-equivocations , and mental reserves ) accordingly i askt him , where heaven was ; but he made me no answer thereupon , his tender headed-iniquity-brother , william harriot said , heaven was where it should be : i demanded of him , where that was ? he replied ( like himself ) heaven was there where god would have it to be : by these impertinent silly shifts , the intelligent hearers perceived , that they were basely afraid to stand to their quakerisme principles : it s well known , that at other times they have confidently avouched ( as their scripture-wresting-guids , teach ) that heaven ( as well as hell ) is within them ; for which that text especially is pretended , luk. . . for behold the kingdome of god is within you ( sc . the pharisees , ver . . ) whereas by kingdome of god in that place , our saviour understands the gospel of god preached as mark . . jesus came into galilee , preaching the gospel of the kingdome of god : and in luk. . . be ye sure of this , that the kingdome of god is come nigh unto you : likewise mat. . . therefore said iesus unto the pharisees , the kingdome of god shall be taken from you , and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof : and ver . . when the chief priests and pharisees had heard his parables , they perceived that he spake of them : these scriptures do plainly shew , that by kingdome of god , in luke . . christ doth not mean , the kingdome of glory in heaven , but the kingdome of the gospel preached by himself , and his apostles on earth ; to which he answered nothing . in the next place , f. e. doth ( as i suppose ) expect some answer to his reflection on me ( at the end of his tedious discourse afore signified ) sc . that i had not in any thing , which was said by me ( he meant in the four arguments , proving the first part of the charge ) made any mention of christ as god to be the saviour . answ . bold man , who art thou , that ●●achest the apostles of jesus christ , ( yea the holy-ghost himself ) how to speak , who were the fa●thful witnesses , that proved all which was said by me in those four arguments ; and that i might prevent ( which i foresaw ) such carpings , i barely repeated the apostles express words , mentioning ( in a manner ) no more , then what is plainly asserted by them ? what dost thou then , but ( under colour of reflecting on me ) reflect upon the holy apostles themselves ? alas , poor man ! had it not been more honesty in thee , to have thus charged the apostles , then me ; who wrested not , but only repeated the apostles words , for the confirmation of the alledged arguments , thou shouldest have clamoured against the apostles ; thus , there is not a word by them mentioned of christ , as god , to be the saviour ; and wouldest thou not ( hadst thou thus done ) have been as bold , as blind bayard : it s most evident , that the apostles preached christ , as man [ not but that he was and is also god ] to be believed in for the rem●ssi●n of sins , both to the jews , and to the gentiles : so that , thy quarrelsome reflection on me , is ( in effect ) a manifest denying the testimony of the apostles , joyntly testifying of the man jesus christ of nazareth , to be the only lamb of god , that takes away the sins of the world , ( reconciledworld , cor. . . ) for , there is no other man , name , or thing ever in scripture , called the lamb of god , which takes away sin ; but the one man jesus christ , and so it is recorded by christs witness bearer , joh. . . . one would now think , that the very mentioning of these things , were enough to refute them , with whom the scriptures of god , have any credit : but what shall i say unto thee francis ; i would ( in true love only to thy distressed soul ) advise thee to search ( as in iohn . . ) the scriptures : for i find thee very ignorant of the truth , as testified in them ; and hence asserting new notions , which thou hast received from other men which tend to the darkening and denying of the unanimous testimony of all the holy men of old , to the true saviour jesus of nazareth , and to salvation through faith in him ; and that thou mayest be delivered from the dangerous snare of the false christ ( the idol-light within ) is the hearty desire of him , whom ( for his faith in , and to the truth ) thou hast opposed . william bullock was the next disputant : to prove , that a quakers pretended saviour within him , is not the false but the true christ . and thus he argued : saying , that which may be known of god , is manifest in them , and t●en st●pt : therefore , i prayed him , to tell us , were tho●e words repeated above were to be found ? he readily told me , sc . in rom. chap. . ver . . because that which may be known of god , is manifest in them ; for god hath shewed it unto them : 〈◊〉 was the only proof named by them : i further demanded of him , what he inferred from this text of scripture ? but because he lookt as if he understood not , what was meant by that demand : i requested him to frame some argument from the text alledged by him , to prove the matter in hand , but all in vain ( a syllogisme being as great a monster to him , as jesus christ of nazareth ) thereupon , i did declare , that the apostle did not there understand the word [ god ] to signifie christ . god man : and as for the phrase [ in them ] it is interpreted [ to them ] as in the very next words in the same verse , sc . for god hath shewed it to them : likewise paul doth tell us , both how and where god shew'd them , this , as in ver . . for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world , are clearly seen , being understood by the things that are made , even his eternal power and godhead : which godhead alone , is not to be understood for god-man , christ the only saviour : in a word , the mind of the spirit , in these two , . verses , sc . is no more but this : namely , that the eternal power and godhead was manifested in ( i. e. shewn to ) the gentiles ( unconverted ) by the things that are made ( or created ) from the creation of the world : this being the true state of the text above , how they could prove the thing , to wit , that a quakers pretended saviour within him , is the true , not the false christ ) for which they were brought : surely , none but young and old bullocks ( or such as are of that kind ) can understand ; i expected some reply from this disputant to the substance above asserted : but instead of a reply , he urged another prool ( this was their manner even all along , that thereby they might ●loa● their weakness and insufficien●●● for returns ) saying , the flesh profiteth nothing , it is the spirit that quickeneth . upon his inversion of the order of the words ; i desired him , to name the chapter , and verse , where the words ( as he had spoken them ) might be found , but he did it not : i then named both , viz. joh. chap. . ver . . it is the spirit that quickeneth , the flesh profiteth nothing . he again refusing to frame an argument : therefore to the text. answered . if these words were to be understood in this sence ( sc . that the lord christ ( on the account of his body of flesh ) profiteth nothing to salvation , but it s the quickning spirit within , that is the only saviour ) then , what interpretation wouldst thou put upon christs words , in the same chapter , ver . . foregoing , then jesus said unto them , verily verily , i say unto you , except ye eat the flesh of the son of man , and drink his blood , ye have no life ( i. e. spirit , ver . . ult . ) in you ; or wilt thou make christ ( who is the wisdome of god , cor. . . ) guilty of contradiction , and so a lyar , to which he replied nothing , save that he had spoken scripture ; which necessarily engaged me to reconcile those scriptures to the understanding of the hearers : which , i endeavoured thus : joh. . . it is the spirit that quickeneth ( i. e. the soul of man , naturally dead in sins , eph. . , . ) the words exclude all endowments , qualifications , or excellencies in the natural man , from this soul quickening work ; hereunto agrees the words of our saviour , in the end of the d . verse above : the words that i spake unto you , they are spirit , and they are life : that is to say , the spirit of faith , is the souls life , or special quickening : so that the latter part of the verse , is both a verification and explication of the former part ( sc . it is the spirit that quickeneth , thi● is likewise con●irmed by the apostle paul , gal. . . and long before , by the prophet habakkuk , chap. . . the just shall live by faith ; faith 〈◊〉 the vital principal , and fountain of life in the soul : it is the uniting grace , it knits us to personal christ glorified in heaven above , from whose fulness , joh. . . we receive grace for grace ( i. e. grace for graces sake ) and therefore his flesh profiteth right believers ; the whole ( as to this particular ) is , though the spirit be a dead-souls quickener , yet it is not the quickened souls saviour . but this disputant still avers , that the scripture saith , christs fl●sh p●ofiteth nothing : therefore for further satisfaction , touching these words ; sc . christs flesh profiteth nothing , let this question be propounded : quest . in what sense way christs flesh be said not to profit , or profiteth nothing ? sol. . christs flesh profiteth an unbeliever nothing : as it is noted by our saviour , in the very next verse , ver . . but there are ( saith he ) some of you that believed not , intending such of them , as did not by faith ( the believing souls-mouth ) eat his flesh , and drink his blood : which , in ver . christ saith , is meat indeed , and drink indeed : also in heb. . . for unto us was the gospel preached , as well as unto them , but the word preached did not profit them , not being mix●d with faith , in them that heard it : what the gospel preached was ; hath been before frequently declared , more especially from act. . . that the same jesus whom the iews slew , and hanged on a tree ( this was the body of christs flesh ) god raised up from the dead , and exalted to be a prince , and a saviour , to give repentance , and remission of sins . this was the gospel word , that was preached , which profited not either iews or gentiles , that did not by the mouth of faith , eat the flesh , and drink the blood of jesus christ , the only saviour : hence , i did infer ; that the quakers being such non eating , non drinking unbelievers , christs flesh profiteth them nothing ( therefore fit to be insi●●ed on by this disputant . ) . christs flesh profiteth nothing ; if it be taken in that sense , in which the iews apprehended the eating of it ; and tha● was , with their natural mouths , as it appears from ver . . they ( the jews ) strove amongst themselves , saying , how can this man give us his flesh to eat ? ( for they knew of no eating , but as they did eat their bodily food ) yea , christs disciples ( such as for the present followed him ) said , ver . . this is a hard saying , who can hear it : hereupon christ doth explain himself to them all , in these words [ the flesh profiteth nothing , ver . . above ] thereby giving them to understand , that he meant not of eating his flesh with their natural mouthes , as they did eat their daily bread : for ( as if christ had said ) should ye so eat some of my natural flesh , or so drink some of my blood , it would profit you nothing : the reason of it , is assigned by the apostle paul , because christs flesh and blood , is new-testament blood , cor. . . in which all the promises of god are , cor. . here hence , it is safely inferr'd ▪ that the true object of faith , is , the n●w-testament promises in christ bodily ; in which respect , christs flesh is profitable to all right believers on him , for their justification , resurrection , and glorification , as in ver . , whoso eateth ( with a soul-believing mouth ) my flesh , and drinketh my blood , hath eternal life , and i will raise him up at the last day : but if we separate the promises of god , from christs flesh , or his flesh from the promises , then his flesh profiteth no more , then if it were eaten with a mans natural mouth ▪ which ( according ●o our blessed saviour ) profiteth nothing , or would not profit the soul at all : upon the whole it was concluded , that w. bullocks second ( as his first ) scripture , fell short of the mark ; that is of proving a quakers preten●ed savi●ur within him , to be the true , not the false christ . the next speaker was patience bullock : . she propounded a question to me : quest . whether christ could have saved us , without his being god ? i answered , though christ could not save us , unless he were god , as well as man : yet the godhead of the so● ( on●y as such ) doth not save us from the curse of the law , because the godhead alone could not fulfill that righteousness ( active and passive ) which the law required ; 't is true , we read o● the righ●eousness of god. cor. . yet it is not to be unders●●od for the essential righteousness of god , but for a righteousness ●nswerab●e unto the law performed by the manhood of christ , to which the godhead gav● both efficacy and excellency , heb. . . and thereby the righteousness answerable to the holiness and justice of the law , performed by the man hood ( soul and body ) of jesus christ , was made meritorious and satisfactory for sin ; as the apostle sign fies , heb. . . how much more shall the blood ( i. e. sufferings of christ who ( or which suffering christ ) through the eternal spirit ( i. e. godhead of the son ) offered himself ( sc . a sacrifice ) without spot to god ( the father ) hence i did affirm , that jesus christ ( as ma● ) is our only material saviour ; 〈…〉 ( if he may be ●…lieved ) 〈◊〉 us ●rom the 〈◊〉 of gods spiri● , 〈…〉 the man 〈◊〉 lord christ , then b●rn of the virgin mary ▪ whom 〈…〉 took up i●●o his arms , was the salvation of god ) i e. whom god had exalted to be ●h● only saviour act. 〈◊〉 . ) and the holy apostles preached ( as a●ore noted ) the man iesus christ of nazareth , to be be●ieved in remission of sins : herewithal named that text of scripture , in the t●m . . . there is one mediator between god and man , the man christ jesus , who gav● himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time . the apostle doth not ( as i said ) here assert , the man j●sus christ , to exclude the god head , or divine nature , from him the med●ator , and ransom●r , but emphatically to demonstrate that nature in which he meditates , and gave himself a ransome ; for though the ransome was paid by him who w●s and is god , or had a divine nature : yet , it was paid in the man hood , o● humane nature only , that is to say , christs humane nature gave worth and value to it : whence i did infer ( but w●th much reverence ) that the manhood of the son of god , is the only m●terial cause of our salvation : and by necessary consequence , the man hood or humane nature of christ , was , and is , our only material saviour ; which i had no sooner said : but f. e. called on the people to take notice , that i had declared the man hood of christ to be the only saviour : to which , some of the hearers forthwi●h replied , that i did say , to wit , that the manhood of christ is our only material saviour : which ( as i suppose ) he understood not ▪ and therefore he said no more : howbeit , i expected some reply from mrs. patience bullock ( no small prophetess in their libertine synagogue ) but instead of a reply , she puts forth another question : sc . quest . . whether we could be saved by christ , without the operation of the spirit in us ? i answered : although it were granted . sc . that we could not be saved , without the operations of the spirit in us : yet , this would be nothing to the business befo●e us : that is , it doth not prove a quakers-pretended saviour within him , to be the true , not the false christ : forasmuch as the operations of the spirit in us , are not christ , god-man , therefore not our saviour : again , i told her , let it be granted , that we cannot be saved without the effects and operations of the spirit in us : yet herehence it will not f●llow , that we are saved for , or by these effects and operations of the spirit in us : so that the me●r tendency of her questions we●e ( by the judicious hearers ) plainly discerned , to lay aside the material saviour : and to insinuate a spirit , and its operations ( still the idol-light ) within , to be the true christ● and only saviour ; thereupon , i denied the sp●rits operations in us , to be the previous , procuring cause or ground of redemption , justification , and salvation with god ; and that it is one thing to affirm that we cannot be saved without the efficacies of the spirit in us , as evidential , and another thing to be saved for , or by these operations in us , as causal ; to which she made no return : let me here add , what her last question hath since brought to my remembrance ; namely , somewhat ( touching this question ) the men of rome , have commonly expressed : the apostle ( say they ) excludes from justification , works which we our selves do meaning , tit. . . not by works of righteousness that we have done , & rom. . . if it be by works , then were grace no more grace , ) that is ( as they wrongly gloss ) works done by our own streng●h , without the help of the grace of god , not those works we do by the aid of the spirit within us , which is the same with that of the carnal prophetess above , only it is expressed in plainer words , so that in truth , her question is but a sly design , to renew again the old papish trick , to elude the genuine force of such texts , as above asserted : and in good earnest , a quakers light within , is but the pope without : by the way , in reference to her last question , let two things be seriously considered : . that carnal gospellers do but deceive their own souls , by resting in a bare literal , or historical assent , that the man jesus christ of nazareth is the true christ , and our only saviour ; while they are in no degree partakers of the divine nature , pet. . . i. e. of the effectual graces of christs spirit , sc . a living saith , a lively hope love unfeigned , true repentance , &c. but are slighters , and professed rejectors of th●m . . as carnal gospellers do thus deceive themselves ; so do anti-gospellars ( as quakers ) no less ( yea , much more ) put a ●heat upon their own souls , by their idle pretences , viz. that the graces , effects and operations of the spirit within them , maketh the true christ , and their only saviour from sins : alas , poor deluded ones , this is to testifie , that the effects of christs death , sufferings , redemption , and righteousness do constitute the true christ , and mans only saviour : which effects and operations ( say ye ) being followed in all righteousness , will bring you to salvation : now , what is all this ? but in plain english , to be brought to salvation , by the obedience of works : oh , let every good christian tremble to think of the dreadful consequence of this your god provoking doctrine ; for , it is a manifest renouncing of the righteousness and obedience of the son of god , jesus christ of nazareth , whom god the father hath exalted to be the only saviour to give remission of sins and salvation to all , that rightly believe on him , as is aboundantly foreshewed . next to mrs. bullock , the champ●●n francis , starts up , who ( who ( after the truths of god had silenced his fellow labourer in the work of the false christ ) repeats some words in the new-testament ; but ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified by the spirit of god. answ . . i requested him , to shew me where i might find those words ; he replied , that the words which he had spoken , were scripture : but ( i said ) thou hast d●●membred that scripture , as the text it self made it to appear , which is in the cor. . . and such were some of you , but ye are washed , but ye are sanctified , but ye are justified in the name of the lord jesus , and by the spirit of our god. . note here , that the only words which concern justification [ sc . in the name of the lord jesus ] were omitted the more craf●ily to abuse our judgements , that we might believe justification in the sight of god , is a work of , the spirit in us , and consequently , that a quakers pretended saviour was within him . i pray thee frances , how doth this accord with the confession of thy faith contained in thy answer to my question above : surely captain b●scomb might have told thee , that thou wouldest deny that thy confession of the faith not only by , but before tomorrow , by this all men may see what a blind , guid he is : to be at once ( almost on a breath ) guilty of such gross contradiction , and yet insensible of it : . my special answer was that [ spirit ] in the last clause of that verse , is to be referred to sanctification as it is in all other new testament scriptures , thess . . . pet. . . &c. and to be sanctified is mostly attributed to the spirits efficiency : and as to the text above , it is as if the order of the words had been thus : but ye are sanctified by the spirit of our god , but ye are justified by the name of the lord jesus : i know , that the teaching , seducing quakers , do convert the transposition in the text , into a confusion , by confounding justification and sanctification : where is the transposition in that text , doth no more co●found just fication and sa●ctification , then the transposition in mat. . confounds swine and dogs : give not ( saith christ ) that which is holy to dogs , neither cast your p●arl before swine , lest they tra●p●e them under their feet , and turn again and rent you : though turn again , and rent you , be in the last clause of the ●erse , yet it is to be referred ●o the d●g● , not to the swine : for as swine do tramp●e under heir ●ee● , so dogs 〈…〉 upon a man , renting and tearing him down : thi● instance plainly she●s that the 〈◊〉 posi●ion in cor. . . above 〈…〉 joyning of sanct●ficati●n to he spirit , nor justification to the name of the lord jesus alone , it being according to the tenour of th● whole new-testament . and instead of a reply , francis tells us of his experimental interest in that text : saying , that he was washed and justified in himself from his sins : and at length he told us , how ; to wit , in some measure : hereup●n ●emanded , what the sins in particular were , from which he was in himself washed and justified in some measure ? whether it were from 〈◊〉 or drunk●ness , oathes , or adultery ? he replied , i am not to tell thee : then more seriously i requested the assembly , to take notice of his want of knowledge in the scriptures ; inasmuch , as that he makes justification from sin , not only a work with●n him , but to be daily wrought in himself by measure , or degrees ; which assertion of his , is directly contrary , to the manifold scriptures of truth , which proved the third argument , to wit , that our justification from sins , was at once finished and perfected ( without 〈◊〉 ) on the cross , by the offering of the one body of jesus christ one for all ; and so already do●e by jesus christ , and in being , in him our head : nevertheless it was readily granted by me , sc . that all things relating to our washing and justification from sins , by that one sacrifice of the body of christ , as above ; is to be believed in for the remission of sins , and for the making of that blessed work ( so already finished ) effectual in us it is to be received and wrought , not at once , but by degrees and in measure , by the working and operation of the spirit of god in us , until mortality be swallowed up of life ; hereunto agrees the words of the apostle paul , tim. . . . the man christ jesus , who gave himself a ransome for all , to be testified in due time ; [ gave ] referring to the time past , the work of ransome being already done , and perfected . [ to be testified ] i. e. by the spirit of faith ( cor. . . and b● its effects in the hearts of believe●s , [ ●●due time ] i. e. in gods appointed time : so then when the spirit saith , as above sc . that the man jesus christ ga●e himself a ransome [ for all ] i e. for all them , by whom the ran●●mer is believed on ▪ and in whom ●he virtue and eff●cts of the ransome are by the spirit influenced 〈…〉 these things are , according to the scriptures , give● by the conspiration of god , ( tim. . ) whereas this doctor 's new divinity ( to wit , that he is in himself washed and justified from his sin● , in some measure ) it is most false and dangerous doctrine : for it doth clearly deny , that the m●ssias , jesus christ of 〈◊〉 hath at once by his own crucified bo●y ( without u● ) on the crosse , finished tran●●ress●●n , and 〈…〉 all which ( and much more ) is the joynt testimony of the prophets a●d apostles concerning the man jesus christ , and the work 〈…〉 some effected by him for sinners while 〈…〉 to god 〈…〉 note , that this truth , doth ●●lly answereth . quakers ca●il , about this matter : how is sin ( say they ) finished without a man , while no good is wrought within him : and seeing ( as they further say ) christ works all things in us by his spirit , how then can all things be finished by christ without us , before any good is wrought by him in us ? answ . it is most necessarily presupposed , that all things were finished by the man jesus christ ( as above explained ) for satisfaction to his fathers justice for sin , before we could receive that satisfaction by faith or its effects by the spirit within us : now , it s most certain , that before faith ( with its fruits and effects ) was wrought in us by the spirit : we were unbelievers , ungodly , unjust , and enemies to god in our minds by wicked works , col. . . then according to right reason ; if the one had not been first wrought by jesus christ without us , it had been altogether impossible for the o●her to have been wrought in us . or received by faith , and to witnessed unto by us ; consider once more , if the man iesus christ had not first given himself a ransome for our sins , we could not have received it by faith , nor could it have been testified or witnessed unto , by us : moreover , let it be well observed , that all the righteousness of sanctification that is in us from christ , is but a fruit of that righteousness of iustification , which ●esus christ of nazareth wrought out by his own personal obedience and sufferings upon the crosse : yea all the graces and operations of the spirit wrought in us , were thereby merited and purchased for us . therefore francis , your being in your self washed and justified from your sins , in some measure ; is , plainly to deny that one propitiatory sacrifice , of the one crucified body of the true man iesus christ , which can be no other then a wretched design , to blot out of our hearts the blessed name and remembrance of that one great propitiation once offered for sins , together with the redemption , righteousness and reconciliation to god , as already ( in christ our head and surety ) purchased and perfected for us until , no other righteousness or redemption be known , but that of obedience to the light ( that unbloody redeemer ) which is ( ye say ) in every man that comes into the world : and thus , so much obedience to the idol-light within , so much redemption , washing justifying and no more . ( here hence francis , comes ( thus in some measure in thy self ) this is the voice of your law-working spirit within : teaching , that he that doth these things shall live by them ; the pope without is become a quakers light within : i have now done with the enlargements upon his affirmation , to wit , that he was [ in some measure ] washed and justified in himself from his sins : the next apparition is of william bullock again : and he tells us , the law of the spirit of life in christ jesus , hath made us free from sin . answ . . i prayed him to tell me , where i might find those words , as uttered by him ; he had been taught his answer , sc . it is scripture : but i told him , that he had ( according to a quakers practice ) m●ngled and abused that holy text of scripture , intended by him ; namely , rom. . . for the law of the spirit of life in christ jesus , hath made me free from the law of sin and ●●ath ; but he repeated [ vs ] for [ me ] and free from sin : for , free from the law of sin a●d left out the word [ death . ] . i desired him , to frame his argument , to prove the matter controverted , sc . that a quakers pretended saviour within him , is the true , not the false christ : but no argument from the text ( nor any thing like it ) was alledged by him , long fa●ting perhaps , made him so empty . there●ore , . i said , that it is the law of the spirit of life ( not in a quaker , but ) in christ jesus and that there is not ( nor ever was ) any other jesus christ , a sav●our from sin , but the holy child jesus , born of mary in bethlehem , the city of david , luk. . , . which saviour is not to be sound in any quaker ; and therefore this place of scripture pretended by th●e , falls short of maintaining your cause , as it respects the first part of the charge : which ●id appear on a due examination of the text it self , in this man 〈◊〉 : to wit. exam. by the spirit of life in christ jesus , we are to understand , the spirit which the father gave him ( as the son of man ( without measure , ioh. . ● . ioh. . . now from this fulness of spiritual life in christ , paul received such a degree of it , as made him free from the law ( i. e. from the reign and dem●nion ) of sin , and from death , rom. . . ( i. e. from the power of natural death ) note , that the spirit in the text above is se●●own two wayes : . by the subject in whom it is ; that is , in the manhood of christs person . . by the effect it is a spirit of life if this life be not ( from christs fulness ) conveyed into us , we are but dead men , spiritually dead in sins , eph . . but when the spirit of 〈◊〉 ( from christs unmeasurable fulness ) is derived to us t●en we feel its law ( or power ) weakening and abolishing the law ( i. e. ) the strength and authority ) of sin in us ; and thereby sin hath now , no reigning , domineering power in or over us , nor can it condemn our persons : and thus , we are ●reed from the law of sin & death . note , not so ●reed , as if we were simply delivered from both or either of these , as that we cannot afterwards sin , and die : but the meaning is , sin cannot rul● , or exercise a command now over us , n●r can it damn ●s , nor can the natural death hurt us : now tell me william , whether there be ought in this third text of scripture alledged by thee , that doth in the least ( though never so much strained ) prove this first part of the charge against you , to be false ; for the mind of the apostle therein is plain and evident , viz. that the law of the spirit of life inherent in us , hath only a virtue to eat down the law ( or commanding power ) of present sins , and to destroy the power of our natural death : what ( i pray thee ) is in all this , to prove a quakers pretended saviour within him , &c. surely william , either thou art very silly thy self , or thou didst think thy hearers to be so : after him steps f. e. again , and said , the scripture saith of christ , i in thee , and thou in me : but he could not tell us , where to find the scripture , that said those words of christ . answ . that i did not remember any such scripture , for manner , and fo●m ; as spoken by him : to wit , i in the● , and thou in me ; but this parret must prate as he hath been taught ; howbeit , if it might be supposed ( not granted ) that christ had said to any particular person ▪ [ i in thee , and thou in me : ] it must needs follow , that the person of christ w●s without ( not within ) him , to whom he then spake ; and the person of christ , being the believers only saviour : this allegation , could not concern the charge before us t is true , we read in joh : i in them , and thou in we , that they may be made perfect in me : i e. in oneness of affection ; for so it is interpreted , in the last clause of the same verse , sc . and hast loved them as thou hast loved me ; also in joh. . . and you in me , and i in you : these words do only signifie the reciprocal love , that shall be fully experienced between christ and his members , at the glorious resurrection of the just , as it is implied in the former part of that verse : at that day ( namely of christs second comming in glory , ver . . ) ye shall ( sc . at that day ) know that i am in my father ( i. e. in his love ) and you in me ( i. e. in my love ) and i in you ( i. e. in your love , ver . . ) now francis , if thou dost mean , either of these scriptures , thou wilt be still at a loss : for it was the man jesus christ , which spake to his disciples , and it is very strange , that thou wilt produce a christ for evidence , in whom you do not believe : it s a sign , that thou art almost spent ; i do not remember that he made any reply to ought said by me , as above : but as a mask for their nakedness , he urged another scripture , ( not naming where , as to the chapter or verse ) to wit christ saith of h●mself , i am alpha and omega : rev . . i am alpha and omega , the beginning and the ending saith the lord , which is , and which was , and which is to come . the almighty , after the reciting of this scripture , i expected an argument , to be drawn from thence by the disputant , to prove the thing for wh●ch he brought it ; but it seems franks seducers could never make him capable of formal argumentations , which defect , constrained me to insist upon the explication ( herein more fully and distinctly enlarged ) of those texts of scripture , which ( for the most part ) were only repeated by the titular disputants , and that many times after their own most presumptuous mode and manner , adding or diminishing contrary to gods command , deut. . . but i proceed to the text it self : ans . the place of scripture above , sc . rev. . . consists of three parts . first part , i am alpha and omega , in these words christs creating power is metaphorically expressed , being the first and last letters in the greek alphabet ; which ( by a figurative speech ) are applied to any beginning and end ; and are here interpreted , by the next words , namely , the beginning , and the ending : which phrases , do signifie unto us christs divine nature , eternal power , and godhead , as in joh. . ver . . in the beginning was the word , and the word was god , ( sc . god the son ) and in col. . . all things were created by him ( his dear son , ver . . ) and for him ( sc for his glory , as the ultimate end , rom. . . ) this therefore is the meaning of [ i am alpha and omega ] that is christ is the efficient cause of all things , and the end also , wh●ther all things are referred : that he hath at first created all things , and that for his own glory alone . second part , saith the lord , which words denote christ the faithful promiser ▪ for all the promises of god are in him . cor. . in him i. e. in the man hood of christs person , col. . hereunto agrees the title [ lord. ] which is mostly appropriated to christs huma●e nature , as before his birth luk. . and whence is this to me , that the mother of my lord should come to me , and on the day of his birth , chap . ver . . for to you is born this day , a saviour , which is christ the lord : and afterwards , joh. . ver . , . ye call me master , and lord , for so i am : if i thou your lord and master , have washed your feet : also , after his resurrection , luk. . saying , the lord hath risen indeed , and hath oppeared to simon , ver . behold my hands and my feet , that it is i my self , ( meaning , your lord and master ) and likewise after his ascention , act. . . and i answered , who art thou lord ? and he said unto me , i am jesus of nazareth , whom thou persecutest : to these many more might be added , to evidence that by [ lord ] in the text above 〈◊〉 man hood of christs person is to be understood , at least not to be excluded : for in ver . . christ saith , i am alpha and omega , the first , and the last ▪ here alpha and omega , are explained by the terms [ of the first and the last ] that is to say , the lord christ is the first , to wit subsisting in the beginning with god , and equal with the father : and the last , having taken the 〈◊〉 of a servant , i. e. of the meanest man , and so last in reputation , phil. . , . third part ; which is , and which was , and which is to come , the almighty : by the distribution of the threefold time , is meant ( as aretas , and brightman on the th . verse ) the trinity of persons , which is , or i am , ( as in the first part ) are here of the same import , and do refer to the father . exod. . and which was , to the son , joh. . ver . . and which is come , to the holy ghost . iohn . . , . the almighty ; this last word of the verse , denotes the omnipotency , eternal essence and godhead of christs person : the sum of both ( sc . . . ) verses above , do reveal unto us only two things . . the union of the two natures in the person of christ ; namely ; that he was and is true god , and true man in one person . . the trinity of persons , in the unity of essence . now francis , doest thou think , that either of these things ( containing the true sense , of the texts alledged by thee ) will prove your cause , that a quakers pretended saviour within him , is the true christ : surely , thou canst not be so bruitish as to think so , but rather the contrary , sc . that it is the false christ the devil : this conclusion made patience ( an impatient ) bullock , she being unable to forbear any longer , calls to me , what ( quoth she ) dost thou make our christ within us , to be the devil ? to her i made answer : saying , that i did solemnly , and with much reverence ( as in the presence of god , to whom i must shortly be accountable for my words ) declare , that i do most assuredly know , that a quakers pretended christ within him , is the false christ , the devil , whom ye ignorantly believe in , and worship , and with whom ye will be damned in : hell , if ye repent not ; to this most serious declaration , she made no reply at all : but f. e. forthwith replied , saying , thou hast no warrant from the scripture , thus to speak : i told him , that i had sufficient warrant from the scriptures , to make good what i had ( in the fear of god ) declared : and forthwith i alledged the words of jesus christ of nazareth himself , ioh. . . i said therefore unto you , that ye shall die in your sins , this scripture silenced him likewise , and thereupon i told him , that the true christ had stopt his mouth . let me here add some other scriptures , for some further warrant , as ioh. . . he that believeth not ( sc . on the son of god ▪ sent into the world , ver . . ) is condemned already , that is , he is as sure to be damned , as if he was actually in hell : and in ver . . he that believeth not on the son ( sc . bo●n of mary ▪ luk. . , ) shall not see life , but the wrath of god abideth on him : likewise in luk. . . and his citizens hated him , ( sc , the son of man , the saviour , ver . ) and sent a message after him , saying , we will not have this man to reign over us : let it be here well noted , that the true christ calls those citizens his enemies , and such enemies as he would destroy , ver . . but those mine enemies , which would not that i ( the son of man , ver . . above ) should reign over them , bring hither , and slay them before me : in mark also , chap. . ver . . he that believeth not ( sc . on jesus risen from the dead , ver . . ) shall be damned . now frank , didst not thou speak under the power of satan , when thou didst so openly and confidently affirm , that i had no warrant to speak as i did , when i spake to thy fellow-labourer in the work of the false christ ? the next bolt was shot by william bullock , and he tells us , the light makes manifest ; lifting up his voice lowder and lowder , crying out , tell me , tell me , the true , and real meaning of those words ; the light makes manifest : i surely thought , that his lowd lowing and bellowing , was to prevent my asking of him , where those words might be found in the scriptures : which i did forbear to ask , because i knew his answer , ( sc . t is scripture . ) answ . . i told him , that he was at his old trade of mangling the scriptures : and then shewed him wherein ; namely , that it was not the light maketh manifest ; but whatsoever doth make manifest , is light : which , the ●ext made to appear , in eph. . . but all things that are reproved , are made manifest by the light : for , whatsoever doth make manifest is light . . by light , here ; we are to understand , a sin-reproving-light : inasmuch as the latter part , doth interpret the former part of the verse , sc . but all things that are reproved , are made manifest by the light , ( i. e. by the light of scripture ) whence paul argues thus : for whatsoever doth make manifest , ( in a way of reproof ) is light ( sc . scriptural light as before ) for the written scriptures are frequently described by light , psal . . . thy word is a light unto my path , isai . . . to the law , and to the testimony , if they speak not according to this word , it is because there is no light in them : here , the written word ( such , was the law and testimony ) is the only manifesting , and so determining-light , either for reprehension , or satisfaction ( in cases of error and doubts ) and the reason of it , is assigned by the apostle , tim. . . all scripture is given by inspiration of god , and is profitable for reproof , for instruction ( or manifestation ) and hereunto agrees the words of our lord and saviour , joh. . , . for every one that doth evil hateth the light , neither cometh to the light , lest his deeds should be [ reproved : ] but he that doeth truth , cometh to the light , that his deeds may be made manifest . . by light ( in these verses ) christ understands the doctrinal-light ( contained in the written scripture of the new-testament ) which was preached by him , and his apostles : hence it is that the lord christ , joh. . . and his apost●es , mat . are called the ●ight of the wonld . . that this light , doth reprove , ver . . and manifest , ver . . well then william , thy ●em●●d is granted thee ; namely that the true and real meaning of the text ( 〈◊〉 by thee ) is this : to wit , that the light of scripture , doth make reproved evils manifest , or evils manifest , which are to be reproved : this being the true and re●● meaning , how doth it prove the thing designed ? sc . that the light within thee , 〈◊〉 the true , not the false christ : i hope , thou art not such a bull●ck , as to think it the t●ue christ . now fora●much as that i have the advantage of more liberty ( without interruptio● ) to enlarge i will shew thee ( 〈◊〉 . b. ) two things ( from the light in the text recited by th●e , as above ) first . that the light of scripture , doth make some of a quakers evils manifest . secondly , that it doth reprove those their evils . for the first , sc . that the light of scripture , doth manifest some of a quakers evils . ● as . the evil of antichristianisme , joh. ver . . for many deceivers are entred into the world , who confess not that jesus christ is come in the flesh , this is a deceiver and an antichrist . observe by the way , when ever this text of scripture is mentioned against the quakers , they presently frame a pretence , whereby they would seem to go off with some credit ; telling us , that we make a man of straw , and then knock him down : for who is it ( say they ) of us , that doth deny jesus christ is come in the flesh ; we do ( say they ) confess that jesus christ is come in the flesh , that he suffered , and died in the flesh . answ . this is such a pitiful shift , nay , such a deceitful covering , that the weakest eye may look through it ; they well kn●w , how unable they are to deal with the arguments , which are in the inspired scriptures of god , against the feigned light christ within them , have therefore made the hole above , to creep out at : but this their juggle , is no other then what hath been a ready discovered : namely , that it was not the visible body of christs flesh , which was or is christ the saviour , but the christ in that appearing body of his flesh ; and as the christ was in this his flesh , so he is in every mans flesh that comes into the world. and hence it is , that a teaching quaker , when he is prat●ng of the idol-light within , he laye ●his hand upon his breast ; saying jesus christ is manifest in this flesh : ( meaning in his real flesh : but christs flesh was only in shew and appearance . ) t●is their ●olly brings to mind , what mr. haworth ( a converted quaker ) doth asse●t in his epistle to john crook , a teaching quaker . being ( saith he ) lately in discourse with some quakers , who held , that it was the light within , that was crucified without the gates of jerusalem : an● in the same epistle , he further saith , i can never forget james n●yler , whom i saw suffer , and what was the fruit of that spirit b● which he was ●cted , was he not strange●y lifted up in pride , to make 〈◊〉 the m●ssi●r , and take divine worship to h●mself : for ( saith he ) 〈…〉 tol● me , that he stood by and saw three women , 〈…〉 and worship him , and one of them in her bowings 〈…〉 : to wit. thy name is no more iames , b●t i am : and 〈◊〉 nayler told iohn bolton , that if he worshipped his body , he shoul● resu●e it , but if that within him he would ●ccept it : hereunto agrees 〈…〉 . d●ctrine ( at the time o● the disputati●n ) we do ( quoth he ) 〈◊〉 the out side christ , to be the ●rue christ and saviour ; so then , accordi●g to this doctors divinity : there is another christ , namely , an inside christ ▪ which he doth worship and believe in , for his salvation from 〈…〉 wrath ; ●ut i shall tell him more of my mind , in its due place . i now return to some further consideration , of what they have above affirmed ; which is , that they do not deny ( but confess ) that jesus christ is co●sidered as distinct from the flesh : and therefore ( according to a quaker , faith ) the true christ and saviour is within the flesh : that is , ( as to their sense ) in th● flesh , of every man that comes into the world , and therefore ( as they say ) they are neither deceivers nor antichrists : to ●ear this smoa●y cost : i answer . these words [ in the flesh ] though they are frequently inserted in the scriptures of truth , y● 〈◊〉 never sign fie a thing distinct from the flesh , but alwayes the flesh it self , as it may appear by mani●old instance ( re●erring to man kind flesh , consisting of soul and body , the true or whole man ) gen. . . ● . abraham a●d ishmael , circumcised in the flesh , i e. the flesh it self was circumcise● , rom. . . outward in the flesh , i. e. the outside flesh , cor. . . such shall have trouble in the flesh , i. e. their bo●ies of flesh shall have trouble : furthermore , the apostle puts this matter 〈◊〉 ●ll dispute , phil. . . but if i live in the flesh , i. e. to abide in the flesh , ver . . which he explains in ver . . i know , that i shall abide and continue with you all , i. e. i ( paul , true man , consisting of soul and body ) know 〈◊〉 i shall abide with you ; wherein it is most plain that his 〈◊〉 ( in the flesh , doth not denote a thing distinct from the flesh but the very mankind flesh it self . for here , by paul's being in the flesh he un●er an●s his whole man : howbeit , let me improve these last verses a little more by propounding thence a question . quest . what is it to confess that paul is come in the flesh ? answ . it is to confess , that paul is come true man , consisting of soul and body ( as above , ver . . ) and consequently , not to confess that paul is come true man , is to deny him come in the flesh : but , to say that paul is come in the flesh ; doth signifie sc . paul is to be considered as distinct from his body of flesh : and so to be in the flesh of every man that comes into the world , would be an interpretation , not only contrary to the scripture , above , but so absurd and irrational , as becoming none but seduced , seducing quakers : from whence i may safely infer : that whosoever doth not confess that jesus christ is come true man , consisting of soul and body , doth deny that jesus christ is come in the flesh ; but teaching , seducing quakers , do not confess that jesus christ is come true man , consisting of soul and body : ergo , they do deny that jefus christ is come in the flesh : and by good consequence from the whole , they cannot deny ( unless they will deny truth in god ) themselves to be deceivers and antichrists moreover the same apostle john , puts a question , joh . . who is a lyar ? and then answers it : but he that denieth that jesus is the christ ; and forthwith adds , he is antichrist : well then , according to the scripture of truth , he that denieth that iesus is the christ , is a lyar and an antichrist : but a teaching quaker doth deny jesus , to be the christ : ergo , a teaching quaker is ( by the spirits testimony ) a lyar and an antichrist : the proposition , being the words of that scripture , ver . . may not be gain-said : the assumption i do prove thus ; the iesus intended by the apostle , is iesus born of mary , ( who is called christ , mat. . . ) the iesus of nazareth a man approved of god among the iews , act. . . but a teaching quaker doth deny jesus of nazareth ( born of mary ) a man approved of god among the iews , to be the christ , and therefore the conclusion is undeniable : sc . that a teaching . quaker doth deny that jesus is the christ : and as this is undeniable , so is the other ; namely , that a teaching quaker is a lyar and an antichrist : which is further evidenced , ioh . . and every spirit that confesseth not that iesus christ is come in the flesh , is not of god , and this is that spirit of antichrist : ( in the fle●● , here is put for the flesh it self ) as in scriptures aforementioned : now to deny christs manhood to be a saviour , is to deny iesus to be the christ . secondly , as the light of scripture doth manifest , teaching quakers ( especially ) to be liars , deceivers , and antichrists , ( yea the spirit of antichrist ) so it doth also reprove them : . because , as such , they are of the dragon and beast , making war with the lamb , ●ev . . , the man iesus , ioh. . , . and the faith delivered to the saints . . as such , they are contradicters and blasphemers of the truth , which the holy men of god spake , as they were moved by the holy ghost , pet. . . for instance , ioh. . . and the word , ( god , ver . . ) was made flesh [ flesh ] i. e. true man : for he dwelt among us , ( the iews ) and we beheld the glory of him , ( this dweller among us ) concerning whom , the witness-bearer ( sent of god , ver . ) hare record , that he was a true man , ver . . there by witnessing , that ●esus christ was true man , as well as true god , and both in his one person : which article of our christian faith , is deried by most teaching quakers . another instance we have . ● tim . . god was manifest in the flesh , i. e. mankind flesh , or true and whole man ; for so the phrase ( in the flesh ) can●otates , as it hath been already cleared from the scriptures of god : so that , [ god was manifest in the flesh ] doth not teach us that god is to be considered as distinct from the flesh ; but that god was manifest flesh , real man-kind flesh , and thereby the godhead and the m●nhood were united in the one person of christ , and made manifest to the apostles bodily senses , of seeing , hearing , and ●eeling , ioh. chap. . ver . . . likewise paul , act . . through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins : through ( or by ver . . ) this man , viz. the man iesus of nazareth , who by the wicked hands of the iews , was slain , and hanged on a tree : and then , by god the father raised from the dead the third day , and exalted to be a saviour to give remission of sins , act. . . chap. . , . through [ this man ] is preached the forgiveness of sins as above : for so hath the lord commanded us , ver . . at which commanded preaching , the wicked iew● were filled with envy , and spake ( as teaching quakers do ) against those things spoken by paul ( as above ) contradicting and blaspheming ▪ ver . . so much for your first evil manifested and reproved by the light of divine scripture : though there are many professed evils amo●g quakers , which the light of holy scripture doth manifest and reprove : yet , i shall now make men ●on but of one more , because i would not be too voluminous : the second evil : is , the profess●a perfection of a quakers seeming sanctity , consisting in [ thou and thee ] thereby denying all reverential respects to any sort of men , of what rank or quality soever . for method sake : we will in the first place , ●ear what they have to say for themselves , touching this matter . . they are apt to say ( because they have often said it ) that [ thou , and you ] are of distinct significations in scripture , and likewise [ thee and you ] the one signifying a singular , the other a plural . answ . these terms of ( thou , thee and you ) are to alwayes in scripture of distinct significations : as it appears , lev. . . ye ( or you ) shall not swear by my name falsly , neither shalt thou prophane the name of thy god ▪ in this scripture , ye ( or you ) and thou , are of the same signification : and in ier. . . return thou , backsliding israel , and i will not cause my anger to fall upon you : here likewise , thou and you , are of the same signification : again , in luk. . . the kingdome of god is within you ; you , here doth ( in your sense ) signifie each particular quaker . . nor are these words ( sc . thee and you ) alwayes in scripture of dictinct significations , as in deut. . . herein , thee , ( a singular ) and holy people ( a plural ) are of the same signification , so in isai . . . here people and thou are of the same import : to these scriptures ( would it not render me tedious to the reader ) i might add many more , to gainsay this their trifling assertion : for you and thou are oft in scripture and reason convertitable terms , for instance , thou in the decalogue is indefinitely understood . . they are ready to affirm . sc . to salute a single person , under the notion [ you ] is both improper , and irrational , for it were to confound singular , and plural in point of right reason : answ . it s neither : for , it s not improp●r nor irrational , to say to a single man , this youth is your son ; for you a●e his father , which to 〈…〉 , is as proper and rational , as to say , thou art is father and the reason is because ( you and your , ) are of the same nature : unasmuch as the one is derived from the other : now as [ your ] is applieable to one as to many , so is ( you ) likewise . again it is both proper and rational to ●ell a single person , this house is your house , for you have a good ●itle to it ; which is as proper and rational as to say , thou hast a good ●itle to t●o hou●e ; and consequently it is not only irrational to affirm , that this dot 〈…〉 confound the terms of ( thou and you . ) ●ts diabolical to 〈◊〉 ( a the quakers do ) [ thou and thee ] making it the daily 〈◊〉 , for your levilling inflamed-pride . . they say for themselves ; that holy men ( in the scriptures ) did use the words ( thou and thee ) not only one to another , but to god himself : answ . this is granted ; howbeit i pray , can any of you quakers produce me one holy man ( in scripture expressed ) which used these words ( thou and thee ) that he might thereby take occasion to deny ( as ye wickedly do ) all reverential respects to any sort of men of what rank or quality soever : sure i am , ye cannot produce me one such man ; for this bruitish kind of practice , is contrary to the manifold precepts and presidents also , in the scriptures of truth , as afterwards shall plainly appear . indeed we christians do acknowledge , that holy men ( in scripture ) did use the words ( thou and thee ) not only one to another , but to god himself , for two eminent reasons . . that they might thereby be kept to the unity of the godhead ▪ for although jehovah is father , son , and holy ghost , yet he is not three gods , but one ; therefore holy men holding their minds to the unity of the essence ; thou and thee , were ( and are ) most proper and necessary to preserve their minds from a plurality of gods : but this ground cannot be pleaded by a quaker , who denieth a trinity in unity , and so , he denies the only true god. . reas . holy men used these words ( thou and thee ) to god , and one to another , as occasionally they were by holy spirit , drawn out to either of these words ( sc . thou or thee ) for all scripture is given by inspiration of god , ● tim. . . and in pet. . . holy men of god spake as they were moved by the holy ghost ; so then , its plain that holy men ( in scripture ) spake these words ( thou and thee ) to god , and one to another ; but it was then , when they were moved thereunto by the holy ghost : but i pray , do ye quakers never use those words ( thou and thee ) but then when ye are occasionally drawn out , or moved by the holy ghost to either : if any of you , should be so notoriouslyvile , as to father the use of those words ( thou and thee ) upon the spirit ; would not the holy ghost tell thee , that thou art of thy father the devil , who is a lyar from the beginning . again , although holy men frequently used those words , as above ; yet they never thereby took occasion to deny , but ever used reverential respects to all sorts of persons , according to their rank and quality : as for instance , abraham , gen. . , , . as he sat in the tent-door , he lift up his eyes and looked , and lo , three men ( angels unawares ) stood by him , and when he saw them , he ran to meet them from the tent-door , and bowed himself to the ground , and said my lord : and david , sam. . . rose out of his place , and fell on his face to the ground , and bowed himself three times to jonathan : again , in the sam. . , . abigail saw david , and fell before him , on her face , and bowed her self to the ground , and called him lord : likewise ruth , chap. . . she fell on her face , and bowed her self to the ground to boaz : and in ver . . boaz courteously said to the reapers , the lord be with you ; and they ( in reverential respects ) to him , answered , the lord bless thee . furthermore we read of reverential respects , between abraham , and his idolatrous neighbours , gen. . . abraham stood up , and bowed himself to the people of the lana , even to the children of heth , and ver . . he communed with them saying , if it be your mind : and ver . . the children of heth answered abraham , saying , hear us my lord : thou art a prince of god amongst us . and solomon also , king. . . arose from his throne , and bowed himself to his mother ; and joseph , gen. . . bowed himself to his father jacob , with his face towards the ground : and in the pet. . . sarah obeyed abraham , and called him lord : unto these presidents , many more might be alledged : thus we see , though these holy persons often used ( thou and thee ) yet , they ever used reverential respects to all sorts of men ; and that according to gods express command , as lev . . thou shalt rise up before the hoary head , and honour the face of the old man , and fear thy god , i am the lord. thus moses by gods own inspiration : but this ye quakers do not : therefore the light of this scripture reproves you , as no fearers of god : and exod. . . honour thy father and thy mother , which is also recited by the apostle , eph. . . honour thy father and thy mother , which is the first commandment with promise ; note this commandment comprehends not only natural parents , heb. . . the fathers of our flesh , but the fathers of our country , as civil magistrates and rulers , isai . . . yea , likewise spiritual fathers , as gospel ministers are phrased by paul , cor. . . we read , that in our saviours time , there were some proud professors , who inclined much towards this principle and practice of a quaker , ( but not in so bad a sense ) mark . . ye ( saith christ ) suffer him no more to do ought for his father and mother , making the word of god ( the commandment above ) of none effect ; and indeed as much more do the quakers ) paul also , by the same inspiration of god , rom. . . render therefore to all ( meaning higher powers and rulers , ver . , . ) their dues , honour to whom honour : and the apostle , pet. . . honour all men , especially in places of honour ) fear god , honour the king , as supream and governour , sent by him . moreover , tim. . honour widows , that are widows indeed ; and in ver . . let the elders that rule well , be counted worthy of double honour , especially they that labour in the word and doctrine . these precepts are given by the inspiration of god , and consequently are obligatory on conscience , to be performed in that useful , commendable , and necessary duty of reverential respects afore declared : and which hath been ( in conscience of gods strict , and indispensible command ( obeyed by the holy presidents above . secondly , as the light of scripture hath manifested this your second evil also ; even so likewise the light of scripture doth reprove it . . it reproves you , as such who want the fear of god , as above , lev. . . and as such , who harden their hearts against , not only the many precepts above , to bind the conscience , but the many presidents to evidence the practice ; now , as both are manifest reprovers of you , so i wish they might make you not only ashamed of your sneaking , surley , dumb , and scurvy carriage towards christians : but also convince you , that this kind of behaviour , is not in the written scripture without , but from the pretended unwritten scripture ( that idol-light ) within : proudly contemning the sacred oracles of god , above asserted . and which is thus further argued : what can the saints ( in all places and countries ) be more sensible of , then that the generality of quakers , do purposely use those words ( thou and thee ) to deny all reverential respects to any sort of men , of what rank and quality soever : that by that means , they may intrude themselves to be equal with any of what rank or sort soever : nay , thereby to advance themselves , above all men , under the notion of a seeming perfection , which is a manifest product of their ( god and man ) provoking pride : according to that of the psalmist , psal . . . our soul is exceedingly filled with the scorning , and contempt of the proud : and how is the prophesie fulfilled in you , isai . . . the child shall behave himself proudly against the antient , and the base against the honourable : and observe ye well the words of the lord christ , mark . . deceit , blasphemy , pride , foolishness : of these four links , hath satan made your chain of darkness ; which is most evident , from a due consideration of the foregoing truths : oh , how suitable is the prophets vision to a quakers condition , obad. . ver . , . behold , i have made thee small , thou art greatly despised , the pride of thy heart hath deceived thee , &c. from the whole be ye advised . . to cease from making your idolized thou and thee , ( the spring of your scurvy and surly deportment ) with their mask , to wit , that holy men ( in scriptur recorded ) did oft use ( thou and thee ) one to another , and to god himself : now , what is your design herein ? can it be ought else , then to put a cheat on the judgements of some ignorant creatures : as thus , oh surely ( say they ) the quakers do make conscience of the scripture for their warrant and authority ; thus poor ignorant ones are deluded by your equivocations : though its most certain , that the scripture no here commands a quaker to ( thou or thee ) any man , much less christian rulers , governours and magistrates , ( yet th●se things the unmannerly quakers will do ) but the scripture doth command all men to pray for rulers , governours and magistrates , to submit unto them , and to give the honour which is due to them , as fathers of the country , ( tim . , . pet. . . isai . . ) ( yet these things they will not do ) so that in a word of truth , , the profess●d perfection of a seemingly sanctified quaker , is a conscience of obeying his proud lusts , and disobeying gods inspired laws . . cease from calling the reverential presiden●s above the corruptions that are in the world through lust : for this is to make the fore expressed precepts of god , and the practises of his eminent sain●s , guilty of these corruptions : but it s no new thing , for a quaker boldly to blaspheme . . cease from wresting the holy scriptures : especially that of christ himself , john . . how can ye believe , which receive honour one of another , the other part of the verse ( giving light to these words ) is usually omitted by them , sc . and seek not the honour that cometh from god only . quest . what is that honour which cometh from god only ? answ . the d . verse tells us , all men should honour the son , even as they honour the father ; he that honoureth not the son , honoureth not the father which hath sent him , ( meaning , to fulfill all righteousness , mat. . . ) it s then clear , that the son of god , is the honour intended above ; if any ask , who is this son of god ? the good angel tells us , luk. . . that holy thing , which shall be born of thee , ( mary ▪ ver . . ) shall be called the son of god : so then the man jesus christ , is the honour that cometh from god only ; which honour the jews ( like the quakers ) received not , as this son of god told them , ver . . i am come in my fathers name , and ye receive me not ( sc . by faith , ) hence christ infers , ver . . above , how can ye believe , which receive honour one of another , and seek not the honour which cometh from god only . now the honour which the pharisees received one of another , was the doctrine of justification , and eternal life , by the works and righteousness of the law , fulfilled in and by the son of god alone : which righteousness of the son , is the justifying and saving honour that cometh from god only , to right believers : will it hence follow , because the proud pharisees took divine honour to themselves , and thereby received honour one of another ; therefore civil honour ought not to be given one to another : let me tell you , ye quakers could not have brought a scripture more full against your selves : for , under heaven , there are not a people to be found , that receive more honour one of another , then the men of your sect do : for ye affirm , and boldly teach , that he who made heaven and eearth , angels , principalities and powers , that hath a name above every name that is named : king of kings , and lord of lords , the prince and only saviour , that gives repentance , and remission of fins , is in each of your vile bodies . it s not to be wondred at , that ye are so possessed with the infernal spirit of superlative pride against jesus of nazareth , the man approved of god , and all true believers on , and lovers of him . so much for some further satisfaction to william bullock , and his light making manifest : the next to him was , f. e. he makes another motion , on the behalf of his cliant ( the false christ , and pretended saviour within him ) to wit , the blood of jesus christ cleanseth us from all sin : the text intended by him , is in the joh. . . and the blood of jesus christ his son [ his son he left out ] cleanseth us from all sin . answ . nor , doth this text of scripture , prove the thing for which it is brought : for , . jesus christ the son of god , in this th . verse , is that word of life , which the apostles , ve . , . had heard and seen with their eyes , and looked upon , and with their hands had handled ; who could be no other than the man iesus christ , which to prove , they bring in the operations of three of their five senses : now , this man jesus christ the son of god , as such , he cannot be in a quaker . . by the blood of this son of god , is meant the grievous sufferings , pains , and tortures , which he endured on the cross to the death ; and therefore called the blood of the cross , col. . . as the man jesus christ , cannot be in a quaker , so consequently , his bloody sufferings cannot be in a quaker . . that this blood of christ cleanseth ( meaning all right believers on it ) from all sin , i. e. from all the pains , and eternal sufferings due to the nature of sin : for ( cleansing ) here , is the same with washing , in rom. . and from iesus christ , the faithful witness , that loved us , and washed us from our sins in his own blood , i. e. in the sufferings of the manhood of his p●rson : for the former part of the verse , concerns christs propetical office : and the latter part , his priestly office ; which referred to christs humane nature : and for that reason , the cleansing , or washing cannot be within , but without us , sc . in heaven , heb. . . having therefore brethren boldness to enter into the holiest , by the blood of iesus : so then , to be cleansed from all sin by christs blood , is to be acquitted and justified in the sight of god , from all the deserved miseries of sin , as rom. . , . but god commendeth his love towards us ; in that while we were yet sinners , christ died for us : much more then being now justified by his blood , we shall be saved from wrath , through him : and the same apostle tells us , col. . , . yet now hath be reconciled ; in the body of his flesh through death , ( or through the death of his body of flesh , heb. . . ) to present you holy , and unblamable , and unreprovable in his sight , ( not in our selves ) for , rom. . . he justifieth the ungodly ; abraham was justified in the righteousness of christs person , when he had some ungodliness in his own person : a believer is compleat in christ bodily , col. . , , . when he hath some incompleatness in his own body : in a word , these things do clear this truth , namely , to be cleansed from all sin by the blood of jesus christ , is to be understood , for a cleansing from all the guilt , and passive fruits and effects of sin : but not for a cleansing ( as in your sense ) from all the movings , and actings of sin , in or by us while in this world , which the following verses make most plain : for even they which are by the blood of jesus christ , cleansed from all sin , ver . , . they have sin , and in ver . ought to confess their sin : now francis , upon the whole it doth appear , that the patterns cut out by thee , do still come short of the measure ; which plainly argues , thou art not ( as yet ) thy crafts-master ; yea this was manifested , by thy answer to this question : to wit , quest . whether the saints was cleansed from all sin by the water of regeneration , or by the blood of justification ? thy answer was , by the water ; which gave occasion to sundry persons to laugh at him : but he endeavoured to compose them , saying , it is no laughing matter , but indeed matter of melting pity , that thy seduced synagogue of libertines , should be led by so blind a seducer . the next after f. e. was william bullock again ; alledging , but a body hast thou prepared me : which he repeated again and again , and then most earnestly called upon me , tell me , what is meant by [ me ] for whom that body was prepared ? and what that body prepared was ? the same was as eagerly required by francis eastlack and william harriot : the place of scripture intended by them , was heb. . . but a body hast thou prepared me . i answered : by [ thou ] god the father is meant : by [ me ] the godhead of the son : by a body prepared , the man hood united to the god-head of the son. and hereunto agrees the ●ormer part of the th . verse , wherefore when he ( christ god-man ) cometh into the world , he saith , sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not ( or didst not desire ) and therefore were refused by god : it being impossible , that they should purge sin ▪ ver . . for it is impossible that the blood of bulls , and of goats , should take away sin : but a body hast thou prepared me : ( meaning , to receive and do his fathers will , in taking sin away , joh. . . ) go● the son having now taken , and put on the body o● flesh , prepared for ●im as above ; he now undertakes the great work of satisfying go●s justice for sin ; ( and so to take away sin ) saying , ver . . l● i come to do thy will , o god. and why ? he tells us , [ in the volume of the book it is written of me ] i. e. in the record of thy decree , from everlasting , is clear for it , that i am he , whom thou ( o father ) hast instituted and ordained to do thy will , for the taking away of sin : for ver . . by the which will , we are sanctified ( or saved ) through the offering of the body of jesus christ once for all : so then the body offered in the th verse , was the body prepared in the th verse : but the body of jesus christ offered , was a real man-kind body , as the spirit of truth witnesseth . ver. . but this [ man ] after he had offered one sacrifice for sin , for ever sat down on the right hand of god : here hence it is manifest , that the very offering of the body of jesus christ , could not have saved us , but by the will and ordination of the father , who prepared that body : for christs hanging and dying on the crosse had not delivered us from the pains of the eternal death , unless it had been written in the volume of the book : it s most sure , all that our lord christ did , or suffered ( in his soul and body ( for us , had not satisfied the justice of god for sin , if god had not appointed , that christ his son ( made of a woman gal. . . ) should be sent forth , to come into the world , to do , and suffer those things for the satisfying his juctice , to the taking away of sin ; upon the whole , i did inter , that the true christ , and our only saviour , must necessarily 〈◊〉 both without and above us : here i made some pause , to invite a reply ; but they were silent , at which i much marvelled , inasmuch as sundry of the ●●●ding quakers , had imprinted so many corrupt glosses on those words , it may be 't was forgotten ; as the preface notes [ but a body hast thou prepared me . ] as thus , the body prepared ( say they ) was prepared in heaven , and brough● by christ into the virgins womb , which body , they call a mystical , invisible , spiritual , heavenly body of flesh and blood : and withal , that the mystical , invisible body ( still the idol light christ within ) is the ●rue and only saviour : whose birth , death , resurrection , and glorification , is only mystical and invisible . hence , ( as i suppose ) it is , that george fox ( in his folio book , intituled the great mystery , page . ) asserts ; that christs nature is not humane , which ( saith he ) is earthly , the nature of the first adam . answ . i would gladly kn●w of this fox , whether [ humane ] doth not rather signifie , a man-kind nature , consisting of soul and body : it s true , we read ( cor. . . compare gen. . . ) the first adam was of the earth earthly ; in regard of his body ( not his soul ) which god formed out of the earth : but the word humane , comprehends both soul and body , which is much more then earthly , or earth , simply , litteral-material earth . again whereas he adds , the second man is from heaven ; to which i answer : the second adam ( or man ) is the lord from heaven as above . . because , christs man kind nature was conceived in mary , by the power of the highest overshadowing her , luk. . . . the true christ is stiled the secona man , because the first man ▪ was his figure , rom. . . likewise in the geneologie , mat. . christ is said also , to be partaker of the same flesh & blood , that the children were partakers of heb. . ; but the flesh and blood , which the children were partakers of , were real , visible , humane ( or man kind ) flesh and blood ( not mystical , ivisible flesh and blood . ) besides , this title , ( sc . th. son of man ) is frequently attributed to jesus christ , in the new-testament , as in mat. . . the foxes have holes , but the son of man hath not where to lay his head : also in mat. . . & . . & . . &c. the lords christ is called the son of man , which is to shew the truth of his humane mankind nature , it being lineally descended from david , according to the flesh , and therefore christ is stiled the son of david , ( luk. . . ) moreover , he hath the appellation ( of the son of man ) in reference to his participation with our humane nature , in all things which concern created-nature , as it s stated by the apostle , in heb. . . and in chap. . ) in all things it behoved him ( christ ) to be made like unto his brethren : and he was tempted in all points like as we are , yet without sin : surely , he that is in all things like man , except sin , is rightly called the son of man : for , sin is not at all the form , but all the deformity of man : the issue is , that the fox hath concealed his craft , putting no difference between the terms , sc . humune and humane : he knew full well , that the fox's craft would be soon discovered , should he admit the lords christ to have a humane nature , or a body as is common to man kind : and therefore ( in pag. . above ) he quarrels the word [ humane ] and querieth , where doth the scripture speak of humane ? where is it written , ( quoth he ) that we may search for it ? rep. though we have not the word , yet having the thing , it might satisfie all , with whom the light of reason hath any credit . once more ; christ the second man , is said to be lord from heaven , because , he is to restore the heavenly life , which was lost by the first man adam : who was also said to be earthly , by reason of transgression : and christ is also said to be from heaven , by reason of restoration . by he first mans fall , all mankind were deprived of all heavenly and spiritual graces : by the second man from heaven , the elect of god have those graces ( in some measure ) restored : as calvin in his exposi●ion on the ( th . ver . above ) paul doth not ( saith he ) speak of the substance of the second m●ns body , but of the habit of graces , and heavenly gifts of the spirit of christ : and on the same verse , he affirms , that the manichies were the first knaves , which invented that heresie , namely that christ brought from heaven an invisible body of flesh and blood into the womb of the virgin. and undoubtedly the quakers have drunk this poison originally from them , by whom the devil ( according to calvin ) first set it abroach ; which as it was , so still it is , a design from hell to beget not only a denial , but an utter blotting out of the very name and remembrance ( as before ) of the true jesus christ , and to set up a spiritual christ , a mystical , invisible , heavenly king jesus : and all this only to advance the idol-light within , and the more easily to deceive poor ignorant and unstable persons ; which hath been , and still is , their stragling trade ; i have yet one thing more to mention concerning this fox ; which is , in his book above , page . to wit , that thomas m●or had said , that christ was absent from us , while we are in this mortal body ; which ( said the fox ) is contrary to the apostle , who saith , the life of jesus , is [ mark , is ] manifested in their [ mark , their ] mortal flesh ▪ but he ( fox like ) quotes not any place of scripture ; the text of scripture abused by him , is in cor. . . eor we which live , are alway delivered unto death , for jesus sake , that the life also of jesus might ( not is , but ) be made manifest in ( not their , but ) our mortal flesh . note , the fox saith , the life of jesus ( is manifested ) making it present : but paul saith , that the life of jesus ( might be made manifest ) making it future : nay , he hath not only believed the letter , but the sense also of the text , which may appear partly by the former part of this th . verse , and partly by the subsequent verses : in the former part of the verse , thus , for we which live , are alway delivered unto death , for jesus sake , i. e. we have ( sc . for the testimony of jesus ) death ( that is sufferings to death , as in the subsequent verses , . ) continually before our eyes ; that we might be prepared for the fellowship of the glorious resurrection ; when there will be a full manifestation made of the glorious life of jesus in our mortal flesh : this may yet further appear , in ver . . so then , death worketh in us , i. e. our daily sufferings ( from the cruel hands of unbelieving men ) for our faith in , and testimony for jesus ; and as it worketh in us , so it ( sc . the strokes which are deadly to our bodies ) works , ver . for us : and what work they ? the th . verse answereth , for our light affliction , which is but for a moment ; worketh for us , a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory ; but how do they work it ? answ . not by way of merit or earning ( our striving to blood , cannot oblige god ) but by way of preparation to the resurrection , in ver , . knowing that he which raised up the lord jesus , shall raise us up also by jesus . then that glorious life of jesus , shall be manifest in our mortal flesh : the sum o● all is this ; to wit , that the lord sends afflictions , yea , death it self ( which to the saints , is the last and greatest affliction ) not only to cleanse their souls , but to fashion and prepare their bodies , as vessels to hold the exceeding weight of glory : now let any sober saint judge , whe●her thomas moor , or george fox hath contradicted the apostle ; surely that fox which endeavours ( as much as in him lies ) to choak the lamb of god , w●ll be ready to wrest the mind of the apostle . this fox , is seconded by quaker penington : sc . that the body prepared , heb. . . above , was a mystical , invisible body of flesh and blood : for , in his book , called mysteries of the kingdome , he saith , that the external blood of christ cannot cleanse the conscience ; for the blood of bulls and goats could not do it . no more can his blood , ( putting no more worth or vertue in the blood of christ , than in the blood of beasts , ) the consideration of this insufferable blasphemy , did so provoke the spirit of mr. francis duke ( a man eminent for meekness and modesty ) that in his answer to one john chandler ( a teaching quaker ) for the like expressions from him , page . he plainly tells this chandler , that he and his fellow-leading friends [ are a pack of such villains , as base as ever the earth bor● ] as for penington , he declares in his book above , that the heavenly body of flesh and blood , which christ brought with him from heaven ( meaning into the virgin ) and dwelt in the garment of his body a while , and now is in every saint , ( sc . quaker saints : ) his mind herein , is shortly this : sc . that a mans wearing garment , is not his body ; so the visible material body of jesus christ , ( which he calls the garment of his body ) is not the saviour christ : but as the natural body of a man is within his garment , even so the true christ , was within the garment of his external body : whence , it s most evident , that this seducing teacher doth not confess ( with the apostles ) that iesus christ of nazareth , the man approved of god , and by him exalted to be a saviour , is the true christ , act. . . let me add a little more of peningtons divinity , in the same book , page . ▪ what nature ( sayes he ) must these sacrifices be of , which cleanse heavenly things ( sc . souls ) whither of necessity , they must be heavenly ; if so , then whither it was the flesh and blood of the vail , or the flesh and blood within the vail : whither it was the flesh and blood of the outward earthly nature , or the flesh and blood of the inward spiritual nature : whither it was the flesh and blood which christ took of the first adams nature , or that of the second adams nature ? ans . in the three-fold querie above : two things are asserted , ( neither of them , are mentioned in the scripture of truth . ) . that the lord christ had a two fold body of flesh and blood : the one internal and invisible , the other , external and visible : and then●e concludes , that it is not the external , visible , earthly body , but the internal , invisible , heavenly body , which cleanseth souls ( which he names heavenly things . ) . that there is an inward spiritual nature ( still the idol light within ) which hath mystical flesh and blood , besides the outward earthly nature : the one he calls the flesh and blood of the vail ; the other , the flesh and blood within the vail : all which , he seems to ground upon the apostles words , heb. . , . having therefore brethren boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of iesus ; by a new and living way , which he hath consecrated for us through the vail , that is to say , his flesh . note here ; the apostle doth not make any mention of two distinct natures : nor of two sorts of flesh and blood , ( sc . visible and invisible ) ●or in the least , of two distinct vails : now , that his jugling cheat may be discovered , let the apostles mi●d be duely considered ? whose meaning is , to wit , that believers may draw near to god , through the vail of christs personal flesh and blood : for ▪ we christians believe ( according to the scriptures of god ) that as the high priest entred into the holy place with the blood of the sacrifice , so the true christ , by his own blood entred in once , into the holy place , into heaven it self , now to appear in the presence of god for us , heb. . . . the whole is , that the body of christs flesh and blood , entring into heaven ( the holiest ) is that new and living way consecrated for right believers to draw near to god , for justification through faith in the one only vail of christs flesh glorified in heaven above : which precious truths , are worth nothing , in the account of a quaker . furtheamore , let it be noted , that the word [ vail ] in an allusion to the temple , where the vail hid the glory of the sanct●m sanctorum , and gave entrance to it : even so christs incarnation did ( as it were ) rebate the edge of the divine glory and brightness , that believers may come and converse with it , without terror ; for some further illustration , i shall here add , sc . that christ is the true jacobs ladder , joh. . . the bottom of which toucheth earth there is his humanity ( or vail of flesh and blood ) and the top reacheth heaven , there is his divinity : so that we may climb this ladder , and have communion with god , i. e. climbing up in hope by the man-hood ( or vail ) of christ , we have social access to the god-head . by the way , observe , that this foxt penington doth not alleadge any of the holy men of old , that ever preached or writ such kind of divinity , as he hath done in his leger demain above ; whereby sundry unstable consciences have been deceived : i have often heard some of them to affirm , that the quakers do believe in christs body of flesh and blood , and that he died for sin , and rose again , and that he is mans only saviour : howbeit they do but wickedly equivocate : for they do not mean , that the body of flesh and blood , life and death , &c. of jesus of nazareth , conceived in , and born of the blessed virgin mary , hath purchased justification in the sight of god , and salvation from sin : but they deceitfully mean , sc . the new ●oined invisible flesh and blood of the heavenly mystical christ , ( still the i●ol-light within ) that died within and there rose to a righteousness and justification , which is a brat hatcht only in their addle brains , from whence also , it is , they teach a mystical bethlehem within , where ch●ist was born , that he suffered and died without ierusalem , that is ( say they ) mystical jerusalem within : o ye quakers judge whither these are not strong and damnable delusions . so much also , for some further satisfaction to william bullock , f. e. and w. h. concerning those words , but a body thou hast prepared me , heb. . . which was the last text of scripture proposed by them , in reference to the first part of the charge as above : i now proceed to the second part ; to wit , that the main end of the quakars meetings in these islands , is , to make the lord christ , his holy spirit , his angels and apostles , all lyars and false witnesses of god. as i was about to prove the second part of the charge against them , francis eastlack interrupted me , saying , thou never wert in our meetings how then canst thou know what we teach in them ? i replied , t is true , i bless the lord , i never were , nor as i hope ( through the mercy of god ) never shall be ( as one of you ) in any of your meetings : notwithstanding , i know what you teach , and mainly aim at in your meetings , for ye are g. foxes disciples , and ye have learned his doctrine : and as i was about to read some of it , they grew impatient , and by no means would have it read ; thereupon i did forbear , but i have here inserted it : to wit , g. fox , in his book intituled the mystery , page , . hath these words , ye scorn me , the light in you , they have disobeyed it , and called it a natural light : and ye have said , that i the light am not able to save those that believe in me : furthermore , page . that if ye would believe , and wait on me the light : i will purge out all your iniquity , and forgive all your trespasses , and i shall change your natures , if you hearken to me , and obey the light within : these are the words i would have read , but being hindred , i told them what they taught in their meetings : to wit , that the pretended light in them , is their true christ , teacher , rule , and guid : to be heard , believed in , walked up unto , and obeyed , as the only saviour ; to give remission of sins , and salvation with god : to which f. e. forth with replied , that he would for this , lay down his life : and to confirm him therein , w. harriot then said , we deny the out side christ , to be our saviour : then i requested the hearers to take good notice : sc . they have plainly granted , that the end of their meeting to be , for to teach a denial of jesus of nazareth , the man approved of god , ( act. , ) to be the true christ , and our only saviour : which teaching , is to make the lord christ , his holy spirit , his angels , and apostles all lyars , and false-witnesses of god : which i proved in their particular order , from the scriptures of god. as , . that this their teaching , doth ( as much as in them lies ) make the lords-christ a lyar : for we read joh. . . , . dost thou ( saith christ to the man that was born blind ) believe on the son of god ; he answered and said , who is the lord , that i might believe on him ? and jesus said unto him , thou hast both seen him , and it is he that talketh with thee . note , if our lord spoke truth here ; then he , whom this man both saw and talked with ( with his bodily eyes and tongue ) was the messias , the christ and saviour , the son of god : and in ioh. . , . the woman said unto him , i know that messias ( our saviour ) cometh , which is called christ : when he is come , he will tell us all things : jesus saith unto her , i that speak unto thee am he . here observe , the lord jesus christ , as of purpose to rebuke this lying spirit ( of a quakers mystical● invisible flesh and blood , their internal saving christ ) doth testifie of himself , that he , who was both seen and heard , by the bodily eyes and ears of the woman , with whom he conversed , was the messias , the true christ , and teacher of all things : and in mark . , . again the high priest asked him , and said unto him , art thou the christ , the son of the blessed ? and jesus said , i am : here likewise the lord jesus testif●ed of himself , that he on whom the high-priest looked , and to whom he spake ) was the christ , the son of the blessed . moreover , mat. . to . the lord jesus proposeth two questions to his disciples . first , what opinion others had of him , ver . . whom do men say , that i the son of man am ? and they said , ver . . some say thou art iohn the baptist , some elias , and others ieremias , or one of the prophets : when christ heard of those various apprehensions which were abroad concerning him : he presently asked his disciples a second question , ver . . but whom say ye , that i ( the son of man. ver . . ) am ? peter ( in the name , and as the mouth of the rest ) gives answer , ver . . thou art christ , the son of the living god : christ was so highly satisfied with this answer , that first , he pronounceth him blessed , ver . . and secondly declares , that this confession , is the rock upon which the church is built : and withal christ assures his disciples , that against this rock ( the joyn confession , sc . that iesus the son of man , is the christ the son of the living god , the gates of hell shall never prevail : o ye teaching quakers , is not this enough to open the eyes of your blind idol within . again , how hath our lord himself , said of himself ( even since his being ascended and glorified ) act. . . i am iesus of nazareth , whereby is plainly affirmed , the now present glorified existence of the man jesus christ of nazareth , and hereunto agrees that which he foretold of himself , mat. . . and they shall see the son of man , coming in the clouds of heaven , with power and great glory : the whole is this , if jesus of nazareth ( whom they wickedly call the out side christ ) be not the true christ and our only saviour ; then he is ( according to a quakers inside christ ) a lyar in all the words uttered by him above : but let god be true , and his enemies liars ; such liars are teaching seducing quakers ; yea , accursed liars , gal. . , . as above . . that this teaching in their meetings , doth ( as much as in them lies ) make the holy spirit of christ a lyar : for we read in the pet. . , . the prophets , searching what , or what manner of time the spirit of christ , which was in them did signifie , when it testified before hand the sufferings of christ , and the glory ( salvation grace , ver . . ) that should follow : and in acts . , , . the holy ghost doth witness , that god raised up the same jesus , whom the iews slew , and exalted him to be a prince and a saviour : likewise , luk. . , , , . that the holy ghost revealed to just and devour simeon , that the child jesus , which he took up in his arms , and saw with his bodily eyes , was the lords christ , and salvation , prepared before the face of all people . and paul also ( by the inspiration of the spirit ) assures us , rom. that the grace of god , and gift by grace , which is by one man iesus christ ▪ hath abounded to many : this one man , is no other then iesus of nazareth , the man approved of god ( not in , but ) among the iews , who with their wicked hands , did take , and him they crucified and slew , act. . , . the sum is this , if the man iesus christ of nazareth , whom the iews slew , and hanged on a tree , and god raised from the dead the third day , and exalted to be the only saviour ( be a spiritual inside christ , a heavenly man of mystical ▪ invisible flesh and blood ) then the holy spirit of truth must be a lyar ; which to affirm ( as quakers in effect do ) is horrid blasphemy . . they do in their meetings and aimes make the angels of christ liars , as it appears by the evangelists , mat. . , . behold the angel of the lord appeared to ioseph , saying , fear not to take unto thee mary thy wife , for that which is conceived in her , is of the holy ghost ; and she shall bring forth a son , and thou shalt call his name iesus , for he shall save his people from their sins . and in luk. . , , . and the angel said unto her , fear not mary , for thou hast found favour with god , and behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb , and bring forth a son , and shall call his name iesus , and he shall be great , and shall be called the s●m of the highest : and again on his birth day , luk. . , . and the angel said unto them ( the shepherds ) fear not ; for , behold i bring you good tidings of great joy , which shall be to all people ; for to you is born this day , in the city of david , a saviour , which is christ the lord , and ver . , , . suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host , praising god and saying , glory to god in the highest , and on earth peace , good will towards men . and immediately upon this blessed remark on the babe , ver . . wrapped in swadling clothes , lying in a manger ; the angels went away from the shepherds into heaven : whence i do inter ; sc . if the lords christ conceived in the womb of mary , and born of her in the city of david , be not the true christ and our only saviour ( but a mystical , unconceived , and unborn christ ) then the glorious angels of god , must be liars in all the expressions which they declared to ioseph . mary , and the shepherds : but most sure i am , that every good christian will rather believe the elect angels of god , then apostate men or angels . . they do in their meetings and aimes , make the apostles of christ lyars and false witnesses of god : for the apostles have with one mind and mouth , often witnessed this truth , to wit , that iesus the son of man , is the christ the son of the living god , mat. . from ver . to ver . . as above ) particularly , ver . . blessed art thou simon bar-jona , flesh and blood ( that is , meer man ) hath not revealed this to thee , but my father which is in heaven , as if the lord christ had said , all men are flesh and blood , so dull sighted and blind , that they could never have perceived this truth , by any study or observation , it comes only by gift and revelation ; and in ioh. . . we ( the apostles that then lookt upon the person of christ , conversing with him ) believe , and are sure that thou art that christ , the son of the living god ; and of whom , the apostles further testifie , ioh. . . and we have seen and do testifie , that the father sent his son to be the saviour of the world. furthermore , we are ( say they ) witnesses of these things , namely , that the god of our fathers raised up iesus from the dead , and exalted him to be a saviour , act. . . we also read in acts . from ver . . to ver . . ) that god anointed iesus of nazareth with the holy ghost , and with power , whom they slew and hanged on a tree ; him god raised up the third day , and shewed him openly , even to us , who did eat and drink with him , after he rose from the dead : and we ( the apostlss ) are witnesses of these things , and he commanded us to preach unto the people , and to testifie that it is he , which is ordained of god , to be judge of quick and dead . when i had thus proved the second part of the charge also , i then called to the disputants for their answer , or assent . but they betook themselves to their former practice , of repeating some texts of scripture , to beget believers in their new invented-mystical , invisible christ , their spiritual heavenly man , of internal and eternal flesh , blood and bones , their everlasting gospel , their tender part , that idol light within . william harriot , was ( as to the second part of the charge ) the first champion that stood up in defence of their meetings above ; saying , that paul travelled in birth , till christ was formed in the gallatians . i demanded of him , where those words might be found ? he told me , they were in the bible : his answer being like himself ) an impertinent simpleton ) inforced me ( as at other times ) to name this place of scripture intended by him : sc . gal. . . my little children , of whom i travel in birth again until christ be formed in you : to which i answered : . if when paul writ to the galatians , christ was to be formed in them , then the light that is in every man ( a quakers rotten principle ) by natural generation , is not the true christ : but according to this disputant ) when paul was travelling in birth for the galatians , christ was not formed in them , therefore , the light that is in every man that comes into the world , is not the true christ . though this poor deluded , soft and fair , had so deeply lasht himself , yet he felt it not . . that christ formed in a saint , is christ framed and wrought in him by the spirit of faith , as the same apostle explains it to the galatians , chap. . ver . . for we through the spirit , wait for the hope of righteousness by faith , so that a work of the spirit of grace in the heart , is christ operated and formed in the heart , as afore illustrated . . the apostle his trauelling in birth , &c. is an allegory : for the apostles were instead of fathers : as the natural father begets the bodily form , so the apostles begot the spiritual form of the mind , which is faith , or confidence of heart , laying hold upon the righteousness of that one man jesus christ alone , rom. . . above , to be made righteous in the sight of god , ver . . for as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners , so by the obedience of one ( sc . the one man jesus christ , ver . . ) shall many be made righteous , ( sc . in the sight of god , ver . . ) here william harriot interrupted me , saying , we are not come here to hear thee preach : as i was about to take up his bolt , i was hindred by william wilkinson , who called to me , friend , hear friend ; i replied , i am none of thy friend , for i am an enemy to the devil and all his works : christ ( quoth he ) called him friend , who was without the wedding garment : i then asked him , who made his wedding garments ? now , that which invited this queston , was a confident report that he had ( at once ) two wives , and in the time of his pretended distraction , he called the one his spiritual wife , and the other his fleshly wife : surely had this felonious quaker been really but half so lunatick , as he feigned himself , it would have rendred him uncapable of receiving this crafty and knave like distinction from the master of his religion , and maker of his wedding clothes , face't with dissembling madness : but letting this pass ; i shall add a little more to the alledged text above , gal. . . herein paul doth reprove the false apostles , who had abolished the professed form of christ in the galatians , and withal devised another form , gal. . . but they desire to have circumcised , that they may glory in your flesh : thus the seducing teaching quakers , have learnt their ignorant disciples , to glory in their own flesh ; whereas the blessed apostle , like a true gospel father , travelled in birth ( i. e. spiritually pained and troubled ) till christ was formed , namely , by a through work of faith in their hearts ; that they might truly believe in the righteousness of the law fulfilled by jesus christ of nazareth alone ; without circumcision , or any other work of the law wrought , in or by themselves , as causal of justification in the sight of god ; this being the true mind of the holy spirit : it cannot therefore be any advantage to their cause ; nor doth it in the least justifie the bold and open wickedness of thee ( o william harriet ) who didst refl●ct blasphemous contempt upon the glorified manhood of the just and holy one , existing in heaven above : [ calling him the outside christ . ] when jesus christ of nazareth was in this world , he was ( as man ) so far approved of god , that he commanded all the elect angels to worship him , heb. . . but with condemned thee ( w. h. ) a contemned out side christ , no saviour , no true christ . w. harriot , i will ask one question of thee ▪ which if thou canst soberly answer , i do assure thee , it shall be seriously considered : the queston is this ; to wit. why shouldest thou not be whipt by the christian magistrate , for this thy notorious and open blasphemy ? [ viz. for nick-naming the lords christ , and our only saviour , an out side christ , ( an unscriptural phrase ) and no saviour . ] the reason of this question is , because , we read that our blessed lord jesus christ whipt sundry persons ( honestey then thy self , and for a lesser offence ) as in joh. . , to . and jesus went up to jerusalem , and found in the temple those that sold oxen , and sheep , and doves , and the changers of money sitting : and when they had made a scourge of small cords , he drove them all out of the temple , and said unto them , make not my fathers house a house of merchandize . do thou now consider , if our lord jesus christ made ( at jerusalem ) a whip of small cords ▪ and with it did whip the people , for abusing the temple , which was but a type or figure of the humane or mankind nature of jesus christ ; which is testified in ver . , . destroy this temple , and in three dayes i will raise it up : but he spake of the temple of his body ; in which all his fathers true worship was to terminate , as it appeareth ( by comparing some scriptures , ) the kings . , , . and hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant , and of thy people israel , when they shall pray towards this temple , ( i. e. towards the temple in jerusalem ; for the words were uttered by solomon at the dedication of the temple : and in the faith hereof , daniel prayed , chap. . . his windows being open in his chamber towards jerusalem : and thus it was ( in those dayes ) with every true believer , in all forreign parts of the world , they did worship the father ( in his son ) with their faces towards the temple in iervsalem : yea , ionah in the belly of the fish , chap. . . yet i will look again towards thy holy temple . now , if in the judgement of jesus christ , the people deserved to be whipt for abusing , but the shadow of christs man-hood ; how much more dost thou ( o will. h. ) deserve whipping ( as well as thy late brother iames naylir ) that hast abused the holy substance , the temple of christs blessed body : this is a far higher offence : it is so great in respect of men , that it destroyes not only their peace in this world , but that eternal peace for the world to come : indeed , ye present your selves a peaceable people , calm saints , and ( as you stile your selves ) the meek lambs of god : but i can assure you , that the persons which jesus christ whipt out of the temple , were far more praceable then your selves : for they were but externally uncivil towards the temple , a shadow or figure only of the body of christs flesh ; but thou , art blasphemously rude : yea , ye make it your profest religion , to derogate from the true humane substance of the lords christ ; and ( with a brazen forehead , and ●eared conscience ) vilifying the holy thing born of mary , called the son of god : what greater violence can be offered to a true christians peace : paul exhorts christians tim. . . to pray for kings , and for all that are in authority , that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty : which christian prayers , the magistrates are bound ( in conscience ) to answer in their practice , which they cannot do , so long as such peace breakers and open transgressors : . of godliness ( in respect of gospel ordinances . . of honesty ( in respect of allegiance ) are tolerated by them : howbeit , i do not thus speak in respect of the poor ignorant seduced quakers ( the generality of that sect , being such in these islands ) but to thy self , and all such soul-seducers : now w. harriot , if the christian magistrate should follow our lord and saviours example herein ; don't thou cry out persecution , if thou dost , the scourge which christ made of small cords ; will tell thee , that thou art mistaken , it being a correcting of the nocent , no persecuting of the innocent : and for thy better satisfaction in this weighty matter , do thou consider , what he was that made that scourge of small cords ( and withal made such good use of it ) and thou wilt find , that he was , sc . . a prince that had magistracy and ministry , radically resident in himself , as the son of man. . though it were so : yet he alwayes refused to act as a magistrate , except it were in this one particular case , of whipping or scourging the abusers of the temple , in the holy city of jerusalem . quest . why should a lawful magistrate scruple to follow christs example , upon such open d●riders and blasphemous contemners of him , whom god hath exalted to be a prince , and our only saviour , rendring him most vile [ sc . an out-side christ no saviour ? ] to the proud and ignorant ( the materials of this synagogue ) yea , hereby increasing the number of those which break the peace , both of god , and the king , in regard of godliness and honesty , as above ? so much for the question propounded . the next prater was , william wilkinson : he repeats some of the apostles words , col. . . christ in you , the hope of glory : which text they wrest , by forcing this sense upon it , viz. that christ in us , is our present glory , and glorious saviour : i answered , . this enforced sense , doth destroy the true nature of the word [ hope ] for , it only quickens a believer to the lively expectation of the promised glory , tit. . . in hope of eternal life ( or glory ) which god hath promised : likewise , gal. . ver . . for we through the spirit wait , for the hope of righteousness by faith : well then , the office of hope , is , to look at some good to come , as rom. . . if we hope for that we see not , then do we with patience wait for it : which shews us , that this grace of hope , is not exercised about things present ( as quakers falsely gloss ) but only about something future , for it is a waiting grace . . as the forced sense above , doth destroy the nature of the word [ hope ] so it doth the genuine nature of the phrase [ glory ] which signifies eternal life , ( tit. . . above ) which is in reversion , or expectation , as the apostle witnesseth , pet. . . i who am a witness of the sufferings of christ , and also a partaker ( sc . by faith ) of the glory that shall be revealed . . if the entire clause in the scripture above alledged , col. . . be duely considered , it will plainly shew us , that the sense afore imposed by them , is antiscriptural ; for the whole clause in the verse runs thus , [ which is , christ in you the hope of glory . ] which is ( they usually leave out ) refers to the former part of the verse ; namely , the riches of the glory of the gentiles : which riches , christ in you the hope of glory : note that it was the person of christ , which was the riches of the glory of the gentiles , as well as of the people israel , luk. . . again , the lords christ , is called the riches of glory , and the unsearchable riches among the gentiles ; who is , said , ver . . to dwell in the heart by faith : so that the mind of paul , in col. . ▪ is explained in eph. . . that is to say , christ in you ( by faith ) is the hope of glory to be revealed , pet. . . though it be christ in you , the hope , yet not the merit of glory ; and therefore by christ in you the hope of glory , we are not to understand either present glory , or our glorious saviour to be in us : hereupon f. eastlack , shoots this bolt : to wit , that the deity was within him , ( meaning that the deity only , was the true christ and his saviour : ) to which i replied , that the essential general presence of the deity , was in cats and dogs , as well as in him , and therefore if the presence of the dei●y only , were the saviour , it might be so in these , as well as in him : forthwith , he cryed out , saying , thou hast spoken blasphemy : i told him , that i had not spoken blasphemy but good divinity ; and then proved it to be so , by the testimony of the holy apostle , act. . god that made the world , and all things therein , he giveth ver . to all , life , and breath , and all things : here hence i inferr'd , that as the deity was not included in any thing , or creature ; so nor was it excluded : to which f. e. returned , saying , i thought ( quoth he ) that thou hadst meant otherwise : this answer was like himself . but for asmuch as some of the quakers have ( as i am informed ) since affirmed , sc . that f. e. did me no wrong , in charging me with blasphemy , as above : i shall therefore endeavour some further satisfaction in in this matter : as from the prophet jeremiah , chap . ver . , . am i a god at hand , saith the lord , and not a god afar off : can any hide himself in secret places , that i should not see him ? saith the lord , do not i fill heaven and earth ? saith the lord. all these questions , are resolved into this one position ; namely , that the deity is omnipresent , in all things every where . the divine being filleth all things and places : for , though he be not circumscribed by any thing that is made , nor limited to any place ; yet it is not excluded from any place , creature or thing . this ( saith mr. carils on ier. . above , ) is a mystery which indeed we are not able to comprehend by reason , but we must take it down by faith● which gives credit to the word of god , and perswades the heart , that the report therein made , is a truth . but if any ask , how the deity may be said to be every where , and in every thing , and creature that is made ? i answer , this mysterious and astonishing question , with augustine , ( epist . . ad dard. ) who affirms . that the deity is wholly every where , and in every thing ; for the godhead cannot be divided or parted : that it is whole within all things , and whole without all things , no where included , no where excluded , containing all things , contained of nothing ▪ yet not at all mingled with the nature of these things , nor defiled with their pollutions . there is a truth in all these assertions , for the deity is infinite and indivisible , and therefore wheresoever the deity is , he is all and altogether , filling all places , creatures and thing in heaven , hell , sea , and earth ; as psal . , job . , . isai . . . and therefore their teacher , f. e. hath not only wronged me , but much more the god of truth , and which was implied by himself , when he said as above , to wit [ i thought thou hadst meant otherwise : ] but befo●e he making good this assertion ( sc . that i had not spoken blasphemy ) i discoursed the words of the psalmist , psal . ▪ . whether shall i go from thy presence ? david was so far from imagining that any such place could be found , that in the very next words he concludeth god to be every where , by an innumeration of all places : saying , if i ascend up into heaven , thou art there , if i make my b●d in hell , thou art there , if i take the wings of the morning , and dwell in the outermost parts of the sea , even there shall thy hand lead me , and thy right hand shall hold me : that is , there shall find thee efficaciously present with me . here vv. vvilkinson interrupted me , saying , we own gods presence in heaven and hell : ( now , forasmuch as i well knew the leger demains of seducing quakers , denying any special or distinct place , of heaven or hell , but what was within themselves ) i askt him , whither his god ( whose presence he owned in hell ) were saved or damn'd in hell ? to which he made no reply presently , but being often urged , at last he said , i will not tell thee : and afterwards he answered , i leave it to thee : this answer was no other than a silly shift , to hide his equivocations least they should have been unmasked , and then confuted by the scriptures of truth ; this undoubtedly was the ground of his silence which is the more remarkable , because this wilk●nson is one of their baffling and prating quakers : but i pass this , and proceed to the second scripture repeated by him ▪ to wit , cor . though we have known christ , after the flesh , yet now henceforth know we him no more ? i answered , that the word [ flesh ] is not here taken for the humane or mankind nature of christ . . because ver . . the saints are exhorted to magnifie the body of christs flesh , sc . that they which live , should not live to themselves , but to him that died for them , and rose again : now it was the body of christs flesh , which died and rose again from the dead ; and therefore the apostle doth not ( ●n this scripture ) deny the knowledge o● christ after the flesh : but he doth deny to k●ow ( i. e. in a special manner to love ) them who pretend to be saints , yet seek their own interest , more then christs : hence , . paul infers ; yea , though we have known christ after the flesh , i. e. after worldly greatness and honour , creature pomp and dignity : in which sense [ flesh ] is understood in ( cor. . . ) not many wise men after the flesh , not many noble , not many mighty ( sc . after the flesh ) are called : in this sense , is [ flesh ] in the alledged text above , to be understood ; as if the apostle had said , while we were unbelieving pharises , we expected the mesias to come in external state , earthly glory and majesty : but being now converted to the faith of christ , we have laid aside those fleshly thoughts , and apprehensions of christ , after which , we know him no more : this is ( as i said ) the mind of paul , in reference to christ after the flesh ( in the text of scripture above ) it doth not therefore advantage their cause , of an idol-light within , their pretended christ and only saviour : i did expect some return from w. w. but he made none . then f. eastlack said , the scripture saith , it is christ in you ( meaning therefore we are not to know christ after the flesh ) i told him , that i had more then once made replies to those words , which had ( as i hoped ) given full satisfaction to the christian hearers ; but this poor man , being almost spent , said again , the scripture saith , it is christ in you : which a little moved me , and thereupon i demanded of him , sc . if the true christ and only saviour be in thee , in what part of thy body is he residing ? that is to say , whether in thy ly legs , brains or bowels ? he had his answer ready , sc . this is an ishmael ; and his brother blasphemer w. h. seconded him , yes ( quoth he ) he is an ishmaelite : to which , ( being now without interruptions ) i make this return , that i am content to be called [ ishmael ] as it signifies [ heard of god ] as ( i hope ) i am , in bearing witness to the grace of god , and gift by grace , which abounds ( to all believing christians ) through the one man jesus christ : and withall let me tell you quakers , though ye are not in name , yet in nature , disposition and practise , ye are the true ishmaels ; as it doth appear by the spirit of christ , ( gal. . . to the end . ) wherein , all such as stand under the covenant of works ( as quakers do ) are typified by ishmael , for in this history ( as spiritually applied by the holy apostle ) we have these particulars noted : ( . ) sarah , notes jerusalem above . ( . ) isaac all the true seed of god by promise in christ through faith. ( . ) hagar , the literal covenant of god , abused by all false teachers . ( . ) ishmael , all hypocrites and bond-children hereby brought forth in the church , mocking and persecuting the children of promise ( under the covenant of grace ) &c. as its more particularly asserted in ver . . but as then , he that was born after the flesh , persecuted him that was born after the spirit , even so it is now . here the apostle reports to us , a great example of unholy scorn ; sc . ishmael persecuting isaac ; moses tells us the manner how , and the weapon wherewith , ishmael did not lift up his hand against isaac ( as cain did against abel ) but his tongue : he mocked him , gen. . . reproachful mocking , is one of satans choice engines to wound the blessed gospel at the very heart : even so it is now ( saith paul there ) and we may now say , even so it is now ; that is , they that are born after the fesh , do persecute them that are born after the spirit ( or of god , joh. . . ) who are believers in the name of jesus of nazareth , ( ver . . comp . . ) it s but too well known , how the quakers ( who glory in their own flesh gal. . . and in that respect , born after the flesh ) do with most unholy scorn , mock them that are born after the spirit , sc . after the spirit of faith in the lord jesus of nazareth , reproachfully saying : o , you believe in a humane , earthly christ in an out-side christ , a christ in name , shew and appearance only ; no real christ , no real saviour : surely , these kind of sayings , must needs be bitter mockings , sarcastical jearings , and most blasphemous scorning of the holy and just one , born of mary the son of the highest , which in ver . . above , the apostle calls persecution : for it plainly notes a contemptuous and malignant carriage against jesus of nazareth the man approved of god among the people , act. . . in short , the whole is this : to wit , let any rational saint judge whether the earth doth ( or can ) bear , greater persecutors of the man jesus christ of nazareth , than these scoffing , quaffing quakers , and consequently are the ishmaels both in having , and acting the very nature , and disposition of ishmael ; but i shall likewise pass this , and return to the third scripture , which william wilkinson repeated , viz. cor. . . but ye are washed , but ye are justified by the spirit of god : answ . i told him , . that he had prophanely dismembred that sacred t●xt of scripture , as his brother f. e. had done before him , leaving out the name of the lord jesus , ( a name too hard for them to bear . ) . that i had already shewed the mind of the apostle , touching those words : and that it would be a disingenious act , to weary the judicious hearers with needless repetitions : but be continued clamourous , querying ; why they might not be washed , and justified by the spirit now , as well as others heretofore ? i replied , that the spirit as such , never justified any saint from fin in the sight of god ▪ much less such a one as he was , who never had the spirit of god in him ; he forthwith required me to prove that , to wit , that he had not the spirit of god in him ▪ which i proved by arguments . . arg. was taken from joh. . . there are three th●t bear witness in earth , the spirit , and the water , and the blood , and these three agree in me : but the spirit that is in thee , doth not agree with the water of baptism●● nor blood of the super : ( for thou hast renounced both the sacraments ) therefore the spirit of god is not in thee . [ note : though i thus argued ; yet it was not to exclude other implicated respects in this text of scripture . ] to which he replied , saying , that he had both baptisme , and the lords supper within him : but i proved the contrary , thus ; baptisme and the lords supper are visible signes , of the invisible efficacy of christs one crucified body ; but the visible signes , ( namely washing with water in ( or unto ) the name of the father , son and holy ghost , and the bread and wine , broken , and given , and poured forth ) are not within thee , therefore the sacraments of baptisme , and the supper of the lord are not within thee : to this he made no reply . by the way , let the reader observe , to wit , that the teaching , seducing quakers do usually affirm , the true church officers , and ordinances of worship , are in god ; and that the deity is in them : therefore all these are invisibly in them : being ( as they prate ) immediately made by the spirit ( still the idol-light within ) whence they conclude that baptisme and the lords supper are within them : though their assertions herein , be frequently and most plainly contradicted by themselves : for they maintain and keep up visible meetings , officers , light worship , and worshippers : and thus by their constant visible practice they clearly confute themselves , living in contradiction to their own fanciful principles and being self confuted , they are self-condemned : how great is this darkness . again , here hence it is , that they acknowledge no other baptisme , then of the holy ghost , and of fire ( which makes many of them ( as it s supposed ) so hot , two wives ) calling it their internal warmth , and spiritual refreshment : nor no other lords supper , than their daily feasts of fat things , which ( as they dare say ) feed them with heavenly joyes , glories , and unspeakable delights : often attended with a dissembled kind of canting-hummings within : a new kind of charm to seduce the itching ear , and soft head , with unscriptural novelties : so much for their internal and invisible sacraments . i pass to the second argument . . arg ▪ was taken from rom. . . the spirit it self beareth witness with our spirit , that we are the children of god. but this holy spirit doth not bear witness with thy spirit , that thou art a child of god : therefore , the spirit of god is not in thee . he denied the assumption ; which i proved , the holy spirit witnesseth them only to be gods children , which do believe jesus christ of nazareth to be the true christ , and their only saviour , gal. . . but thou dost not believe on jesus of nazareth to be the true christ , and thy only saviour ; therefore , the holy spirit doth not bear witness with thy spirit , that thou art a child of god , and consequently thou hast not the spirit of god within thee : to which he made me no return at all ; so that his staring silence , gave open consent to the concluded truth above . the d. argument was thus formed : sc . he that maketh god the father a lyar , hath not the spirit of god in him : but thou makest god the father a lyar : this minor he confidently denied , but i proved it , thus : he that believeth not the record , which god gives of his son , makes him a lyar , joh. . . but thou believest not the record , that god gave of his son therefore , thou makest god the father a lyar : he denied the minor proposition ; for ( as he said ) he believed the record that god gave of his son : but i proved the contrary , thus , the record that god gives of his son , is this , sc . that iesus christ ( as man ) is the lamb of god that takes away the sins of the world , joh. . , . with . verse . but thou dost not believe the record , namely , that iesus christ ( as man ) is the lamb of god that taketh away the sins of the world ; therefore thou didst not believe the record , that god gave of his son ; consequently , thou makest god a lyar , and such blasphemers have not the spirit of god in them : here again the lord stopt his mouth , that he had not a word to say for himself . as i was thus arguing this truth , ( sc . that the spirit of god , was not in this disputant w. wilkinson ) i observed ( and o let it never be forgotten ) a very old quaker ( mr henry smith ) standing upon a form ( or some such thing ) and looked earnestly and sadly upon me , my very heart being moved towards this poor seduced old●man ; i forthwith called to him : saying , my soul is grieved for thee , oh do but consider , what will shortly become of thy unbelieving soul , which hath professedly forsaken the true christ , and only saviour , from s●n and the wrath to come , act. . . chap. . . thess . . . even iesus of nazareth a man approved of god among the people , and by him exalt●● to be a prince and saviour , to give repentance and remission of sins . o wi●h what horror and astonishment , wilt thou er● long look the lamb of god in the face , when he shall charge thee with an open denying , yea with renouncing of him before m●n , and with ( perhaps ) a causing many others likewise to do the same its high time for to bethink thy self what answer thou wilt give to the lord christ for this thy dreadful and accursed apostasie , when god shall take away thy soul : oh , that thou wouldest seriously think on blessed st pher , ( a man full of the holy ghost ) when he saw the heavens above opened , and jesus the son of man standing there , he called on him , and said , lord jesus receive my spirit , act. . , , . but alas poor ●ld man ! on whom wilt thou call to receive thy almost despairing spirit ? thou art not of blessed stephens faith , who lived , and died in the faith of jesus of nazareth , the true christ , and his only saviour : o thou poor sinner ▪ that art deluded into another faith , how dost thou think to escape the damnation of hell ? as i were thus speaking to him , the lord undoubtedly took hold on his heart ; for though he were a man of parts , yet he made no reply of anything , which ( in real tenderness to his soul ) i had spoken above : but immediately he stept down , in a trembling posture , with tears in his eyes , went out of the church : the next morning be came to my house , ( pretending a troubled spirit ) and after some conference with him , he went ●civily away , and ( as i hoped ) somewhat satisfied : but this visible and invisible hand shaking of god , was soon after forgot by him , and he ( according to the divine method of just and secret judgements ) more settled in his long runs of whoring from god ; which hath caused me to ●end a few lines more after quakers . . that ye would be perswaded , wisely to consider that text of scripture , in rev. . , &c. which concerns all sorts of unbelievers ver . , . calling to the mountains and rocks , fall on us , and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne , and from the wrath of the lamb : for ●he great day of his wrath is come , and who shall be able to stand ? o thou deluded one ! will it not amaze thee ? when thou shalt look up and see , and say ; lo , yonder is jesus of nazareth the man approved of god , that i would not have to rule over me , yonder he is indeed : oh , yonder he comes , he comes ! alas , alas ! what shall i do , that am in my sins of impenitency and unbelief , and have no share in him ? look , oh look , what a glorious train doth attend him : wo is me , oh we is me ! this lamb of god ( whom poor deluded i , called an out side christ , no saviour ) behold he comes lika a lion , tearing in pieces , and none to deliver : will not this be a dreadful , most dreadful day to thee indeed , dying in thy apostasie : i do therefore intreat you , to ponder seriously on this weighty matter , concerning jesus christ of nazareth , the son of mary ; that he is now in a present , glorified and bodily existence in the third heaven above , and that he now hath ( though denied by socinians and quakers ) in the heavens above , true flesh and blood , the nature and properties of a true mankind body ; which mr. doolittle plainly proves , by propounding ( in the young-man's instructor ) four questions . . quest . had not christ a real humane , mankind body , when he arose out of the grave ; forasmuch as he shewed the prints of the nailes in his hands and feet to thomas , joh. . . surely , this cannot be denied with any colour of reason . . quest . did he not ascend with the same body , or had he not the same body when he was parted from his disciples ; forasmuch as they saw the same body , go up , that talked with them , act. . , , . no man can deny this , with whom the scriptures of truth , have either authority or credit . . quest . can you say , that christ put off his body , after he was taken out of sight before he came into heaven ; or if you should say it , doth any scripture favour you herein ? neither socinian , quaker , or any other to this day ever produced ( nor can ) any such scripture : for stephen saw christs humane body since in heaven above , act. . . . quest . or can you tell , that christ put off his body , since he came to heaven , and stephen saw him there : i am ( said he ) most sure , that you can tell no such thing ; for the testimony of the holy angels is against it , for they did assure the disciples , that the same jesus that they saw ascend , should be so seen to come again , act. . , , . and will not these four things , put you out of doubt , sc . that christ hath the same body now , that he had upon the earth : oh , how great is the ground of a true christians comfort , that the same person that died for us , is thus sate down at the right hand of god : aad that there we have the same jesus interceeding for us in heaven : on the other side is it not matter of dread and terror to the wicked ( both in practice and judgment ) that still continue to oppose an exalted christ , and prefer their base lusts and errors before this glorious lord jesus . the second part of the charge being fully ended , w. wilkinson called on me , to make good the third part of the charge . viz. that the prime principles of a quaker , are the same which were held and professed by the beasts , that paul fought with at ephesus . which i thus a●gued : it appears by the manifold arguments , which the apostle paul used towards the corinthians , cor. chap. . to prove the resurrection of christs body from the dead , and the bodies of the saints by him : now their principles were these , to wit , . that the body of christ was not raised from the dead ( and consequently he is not jesus , a saviour ) . that no mans body shall be r●ised from the dead , ( and consequently , christ shall not be the riser of the dead . ) the first of these the apostle confutes , in chap-above , ver . . . for i declared unto you first of all , that which i received : how that christ diea● or our sins , according to the scriptures : and that he was buried , and that ●he rose again the third day , according to the scriptures . and the second likewise , in ver . , , . &c. but if there be no resu●rection of the dead , then is christ not risen ; and if christ be not risen , we are found false witnesses of god , because we have testified of god , that b● raised up christ , whom he raised not up , i● so be that the ●ead rise not . here hence paul infers , ver . . if after the manner o● me● , i have fought with beasts at ephesus , what advantageth is me , if the dead rise n●t ; let us ●at and drink , for tomorrow we die . as if the apostle had said , if it must be with our bodies , as with be●sts after death , then it would be best for us to live as beasts 〈◊〉 time of life ; intimating that there resolves and desires is to live in brutish lust & pleasures , these are the most predominate motiv●s that perswaded them to deny and oppose the resurrection of the dead ; which opposition i charged upon the quakers then present : to which , william wilkinson replyed , saying , shew us an express scripture which saith , that the beasts which paul fought with at ephesus , denyed the resurrection of the dead . i answered , . it was plainly implyed in that text of scripture ; and it doth evidently concenter therein : besides , in reason , there is nothing that could be the ground or occasion of this fight ( or violent contention ) between paul and these brutish disputants , but the doctrine of the resurrection . . i gave him the liberty to put his own interpretation upon the words ( in vers . . above ) to which he made no reply at all . let me here add , it is more then probable , that the beasts paul sought with at ephesus , were the same persons ( or of the same beastly perswasion ) which , in other places opposed paul's doctrines , of faith in jesus , and the resurrection of the dead . as in athens , act. . . then certain philosophers of the epicurians ( whom calvin on the text calls beasts ) encountered him ; and some said , what will this babler say ; othersome , he seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods , because be preacheth unto them jesus and the resurrection ; at which some mocked , vers . . and in the beginning of this chap. ( vers . , , . ) we read , that paul went into the synagogue of the jews in thessalonia , and three sabbath dayes reasoned with the jews out of the scripture , opening and alledging , that christ must needs have suffered , and risen again from the dead : and that this jesus whom i preach unto you is christ but what was the issue ; the . vers . tells us , sc : some of the jews believed of the devout greek , a great multitude , and of the chief women , not a few : but the ( . vers ) informs us , that othersome of the hearers believed not ; moved with envy , took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort , and gathered a company , and set all the city on an uproar ( against paul , because he preached jesus and the resurrection ) therefore ( . ) the brethren immediatly sent away paul by night unto berea , who coming thither , went into the synagogue of the jews ( and preached the same doctrine , v. ● ) but when the jews ( vers . . ) of thessalonia ( i. e. the lewd followers of the baser sort of the jews , vers . . ) had knowledge that the word of god was preached of paul at berea , they came thither also , and stirred up the people ▪ then immediatly the brethren sent paul away ( vers . . ) and they that conducted him , brought him to athens ( vers . . ) in the next chapter ( ch . . . ) we read , that paul departed from athens , and came to co●inth : and he , ( vers . . ) reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath , and perswaded the jews and greeks ( namely to believe in jesus and the resurrection , as in all places a●ore expressed ) but when he was here also opposed ( vers . . ) he departed thence , and sailed into syria ( vers ) and he came to ephesus ( vers . ) and entered into the synagogue , and reason●d with the iews : though some perhaps might believe his doctrines , because it is said ( vers . . ) he was desired to tarry a longer time with them : yet it is very probable that he was there opposed by some others , ( as at thessalionica above ) either at this , or some other time : and according to his first epistle to the corinthians , giveth them an account of it ( ch . . . ) now , if the beasts therein mentioned , were not the same individual person , yet they were specifically the same ( i. e. of the same malignant quality and rotten judgement ) with those lewd fellows of the baser ( or more bruitish ) sort ; which in act. . , &c. above so strongly denied and opposed , jesus of nazareth to be the true christ and only saviour with the resurrection of the dead , upon the whole : ye teaching , seducing quakers may run and read in the scriptures of god , what lewd and base fellows have been ( according to the testimony of the holy spirit of truth ) your predecessors , and of your bruitish principles : sc . . denying jesus christ of nazareth to be the true christ , and our only saviour . . denying the resurrection of the dead . as to the last of these , f. eastlack said , we do not deny the resurrection of the dead i demanded of him , whether they did believe , that the same body that dies shall rise again . he readily replied , saying , we do not beliyve the resurrection of the same body that dies : how then ( said i ) do you grant the resurrection of the dead ? if the same body that died shall not rise again : is not this , plainly to deny , what ye grant : for , if it be an●ther body that is raised from the dead , then it s not the same body that died : nay , it must be a raising of a body from the dead , that never died : th●se ab●urditi●s must unavoid●bly follow : nay furthermore , if it be not the resurrection of the same body that died . it cannot be called a resurrection , but a new creation , which is altogether ( in effect ) to deny the resurrection of the dead ; and so a plain self contradiction . next w. bullock appeared : telling us , that the same body which dies , shall not rise again ; alledging these words : it is sown a natural body , it is raised a spiritual body . i replied , . that the words repeated by him , were in , cor. . . and withal , the apostle saith not , that the body shall be raised a spirit , but spiritual ; as christs body of flesh and bones , after the resurrection , was spiritual , but not a spirit : for christ assured his disciples , that his body was not changed into a spirit ; behold and ●ee , for a spirit hath not flesh and bones , as ye see me have , luk. . . it is the same true and real body which is presented to you , saying , it is i my self . now , as it was with christs body raised from the dead , so it shall be with our body ( as to the substantial sameness ) after the resurrection , inasmuch as the resurrection of christs body is made a pledge of our resurrection , cor. . . and god hath both raised up the lord , and will also raise up us by his own power . again , but now is christ risen from the dead , and become the first fruits of them that slept , cor. . . . it is raised a spiritual body , because then the body shall have no need of natural helps , of which a natural body stands in need of , as sleep , meat , rayment ; but a spiritual body needs them not , this is the judgement of all orthodox authors : christ told the sadduces ( who said there is no resurrection ) that after the resurrection , mat. . . they neither marry nor are given in marriage , but are as the angels in heaven ? christ doth not say , that they shall be angels , or that their bodies shall be changed into ●he nature of angels : but as angels ( or angelical ) in respect of qualifications ; in like manner the body shall be raised spiritual , but not a spirit . francis eastlack stood up again , and boldly said , that the scripture saith , it shall not be the same body at the resurrection ; and forthwith called to me for the bible which was in my hand , he turned to the cor. chap. . and read the , , . verses . thou fool , that which thou sowest is not quickened except it dye , and that which thou sowest , thou sowest not that body that shall be but bare grain ; but god giveth it a body as it hath pleased him , and to every seed his own body . i answered , that the last words [ sc . to every seed his own body ] do shew , that it is the same body for substance , which was sowen ; but not for qualities : f. eastlack replied , saying , the scripture saith , it is not the same body , but thou sayest it is the same body ; i told him . what i had said , the same texts of scripture do ( in effect ( say , sc . though it be not the same body for qualities , yet it is the same body for substance : as a piece of plate of the old fashion , being cast into a mould of the newest fashion , is the same for substance , but not for qualities : wool died in a scarlet colour : is the same wool for substance as it was before , but not for qualities : and withal i told him , if he would not admit of a distinction , how then could he reconcile these scriptures to his understanding . viz. god repents and he repents not : god tempts no man , yet god tempted abraham : reprove a fool in his folly , and reprove not a fool in his folly : i and my father are one , and the father is greater then i , to which he made no answer , not quarell'd distinctions any more . as for the similitude of corn and grain , mentioned in the verses above , i shall answer with reverend mr. caril : it is ( saith he ) very true , that the corn or grain which is sowed , doth not arise again in that manner , or after that quality or likeness in which it was cast into the ground : we sow bare seed , but when it comes up again it comes with a stalk , and an ear and shoots up in much greeness and beauty : there is a great difference between a grain of wheat in the bushel , and a flourishing stem , or ear of corn in the field : god gives it another body in the growing up , but yet it is still a body , and there is the same nature in it still , and the same substance of the grain remains still ; only there is an addition of beauty and greenness when it is risen and grown up : so the body that is cast into the ground , is like a [ bare ] grain : it is cast in a bare ( or naked ) body , but when it shall be raised again , the body shall have many beautiful and glorious additions : so that in the resurrection there will be an adding of somewhat to that which was before ; the corn grows up , with somewhat that it had not , but it doth not lose any thing that it had : t is still a garin of wheat and better , so the body laid down in the grave , is raised , not the same in all things , but better in many things added : now the excellent endowments and qualifications added to the body , cannot work a loss or an annihilation of the frame or disposition of corporial parts and members , so much for mr. caril , upon the cor. . , , ▪ verses . i shall now consider the last text of scripture , which was by f. e. repeated , to wit : cor. . . that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdome of god ; therefore , the same body that dies shall not rise again . i answered . that the socinians ( your brethren and fellow adversaries of the truth ) do urge this text of scripture , to confirm their assertions against christ and the resurrection of the same body ; to wit , that christ hath not now flesh and blood , nor the nature and properties of a true mankind body ; this hath been afore propounded and confuted : again ( they say , as ye do ) how can the body arise of flesh , when the apostle saith , flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god ; if no flesh shall inherit the kingdom of god , how can it be affirmed that the same true flesh shall be raised to enter upon that inheritance ( perhaps this improvement he had forgot . . these inferences are not only defective , but contrary to the true nature of a resurrection , which denotes a taking up of that which was laid down : it must hence follow , sc : if the same body that dies be not raised up , but another kind of body , it cannot be a resurrection , as above ; moreover , if a● the resurrection it be not the same , but another body , then , that body which actively and passively honoured god in this world , shall not ( according to divine promise , col. . . ) be glorified with christ in the world to come , but another body shall be there glorified , which never did or suffered any thing for god's honour , and to which god never made any promise : yea , that body which wickedly sinned , lived and dyedin finall impenitency and unbelief : shall not ( according to divine threatning , matt. . . ) be for ever tormented : but another body shall which never sinned ( nor was ever threatned ) be eternally dammed in hell with the devil and his angels : these inavoidable consequents are no less than high blasphemies against the justice , truth , and righteousness of god himself , especially in that scripture of sacred truth ( cor. . ) we must all appear before the judgment seat of christ , that every one ( sc : the same whole man ) may receive the things done in his body , according to that he hath done , whether good or bad : and the lord christ assures us ( john. . , . ) the hour is coming , in the which all that are in the graves ( are there any other bodies in the graves then the same bodies which were put into them ) shall hear his voice , and shall come forth , they that have done good , unto the resurrection of life , and they that have done evil , unto the resurrection of damnation ; thus ( in matt. . . ) also proved . . that by flesh and blood ( in that place of scripture above ) is not meant the substance of flesh and blood ; the parts of a man's body ( as now it is ) but it is to be understood of the sinfull qualities of man's nature ( that are to be done away ) as in other places , rom. . , . chap. . , , . gal , , . flesh doth signifie ; or of naturall flesh and blood , of which the body is now composed and made up ; as such , it is corruptable , and cannot enter into the kingdome of heaven ; and thus paul expounds it , as in the latter clause of the same . verse . neither doth corruption inherit incorruption : that is , corruptable flesh and blood ( or flesh and blood that hath the seed and principles of corruption ) shall never enter into the kingdome of heaven : such flesh and blood is unfit to wear the crown of glory ; as our souls must be changed , before they can be fit for glory , so also must our bodies from their natural estate , to a spiritual : for at the resurrection , our bodies shall not be raised natural , corruptable bodies ; but spiritual , incorruptable bodies , and as such they will be fit for glory in the kingdome of heaven ; as it s illustrated , ver . . and the dead shall be raised incorruptable , and we shall be changed : but how ? the next verse , sc . . tells us , this corruptable must put on incorruption : note [ this ] mortal must put on immortality : well then , though the body of man be now natural , corruptable , and mortal flesh and blood ( and as such unfit for the kingdome of heaven : ) but in the resurrection the body will not be so ; for it will then be spiritual , incorruptable , immortal flesh and blood , and being so qualified , it will be fit to inherit the kingdome of god. having thus answered , i expected some return ; but they were all silent : thereupon capt. john hubbart sherrif , with the iustices of peace , ( as representees of the christian part of the assembly ) came forth towards me , and openly declared , that they were fully satisfied with my proofs and answers : the quakers being thus regularly found guilty of the whole charge ; the vast assembly was forthwith peaceably dismissed . reader ; i have been earnestly requested by some of the lords people in these islands , to make some replies to three or four erroneous principles ( not discussed in the disputation ) held and professed by most quakers : to wit , . that there is a state of perfect freedome from sin in this life . . that the matter contained in the scriptures , is not ( . ) the word of god. ( . ) nor the infallible standing rule of faith , and life . . that the soul in man is god , in part , and so infallible . . the denying of the trinity : sc . three persons in one deity . these corrupt principles maintained by most teaching quakers , i have ( on request as above ) considered , and made some replies to each particular distinctly , as in their order afore expressed . . principle . that there is a state of perfect freedome from sin , in this life ; alledging that the scriptures do testifie the same : as job . ver . , . psal . . ver . . & . . & . . mat. . . rom. . . & . . & . . phil. . . eph. . . luk. . . that i might herein give some satisfaction , i have considered the above-mentioned scriptures , one after another in their asserted order . the first scripture , job . ver . , , . there was a man whose name was job , and that man was perfect . reply to the st . verse . by perfect here , we are not to understand a legal perfection , such as adams before the fall ; though it be contended for by the teaching quakers , and affirmed by them as possibly attainable , yea , actually attained by many of their friends in this life : but the spirit doth not in any one of these verses , express ( no , nor in end ) iobs perfection from all sin in this life : nor did iob so understand it , witness his own confessions . chap. . . if i justifie my self , my own mouth shall condemn me : if i say ▪ i am perfect , it shall a●so prove me perverse ; that is to say , if i justifie my self , by the actings and expressions of my life , my mouth would condemn me : so , if i say , i am perfect in the thinkings and s●cret motions of my heart , it would prove me perverse ( caril in locum ) and in chap. . . thou enquirest after my iniquity , and searche●t after my sin : likewise in chap. . . wherefore i abhor my self , and repent in dust and ashes : but to put the word perfect , in ver . . out of all doubt , it is explained in the th . vese above , there was none like him in the earth , a perfect and an upright man : which referred to that generation in which iob lived . so we read of noah , gen. . . that he was a just man and perfect in his generations : in like manner consider iob in the time and age wherein he lived ; there was none like him in the earth for godliness and uprightness : hence for any man to infer , that either noah or iob were were perfect from all sin in this life , would be a miserable perver●ing of the places of scripture : they being only perfect comparatively , i. e. in comparison of all other men , which lived in their ages , and generations . and as for the d . verse . in all this iob sinned not . reply . these words are not to be taken in a quakers sense ( as if iob had been at any time without sin in this world ) for , in the th . verse , he ( iob will curse thee to thy face : satan was confident that iob would blaspheme , by cursing god to his face : this satan did promise to himself , and did undertake with god ; which plainly interprets the words , sc . in all this iob sinned not : that is such a sin , ( in thought or word ) as to curse god : he was not transported by passion or impatiency , to reproach or curse the living god , but gave him glory , saying , ver . . the lord gave , and the lord hath taken away , blessed be the name of the lord ; as to the phrase perfect above . obj. if any of you say , as some teaching quakers have said : sc . that it was in the time of iobs affliction , when he said ; if i say that i am perfect , it will prove me perverse ; but after his deliverance he was perfect without sin ? ans . this is wholly false : for the character given of iob , viz. a perfect man , was before his affliction ; for gods commending of him ( as perfect and upright ) was the occasion of the devils desiring leave of god to afflict him , and of gods grant , ver . . that his word might be found true : upon the whole , observe in iob , chap. . ver . . how then can man be justified with god , or can he be clean , that is born of a woman , this question , carrieth a strong denial , viz. it cannot possibly be , or it is impossible to be : as if iob had said , do but acknow●edge that any one is born ordinarily of a woman , and we may conclude him to be sinful and unclean , with ( or in the sight of ) god. second scripture , psal . . ver . . mark the perfect man , and behold the upright . rep. vpright , in the latter clause , doth interpret , perfect , in the former , so then the perfect man , is the upright or sincere hearted man ; we read in iacobs character , gen. . . and iacob was a plain man ; this phrase plain man here , is the same wite perfect man in the text above : a plain man and a perfect man ( in a scriptural account ) are convertible terms , chron . , . and do signifie , a man that hath not a heart and a ●cart , or a double minded man , jam. . . not a compound man , speaking one thing and meaning another : it is also the same word , that is given to noah , gen. . . he was perfect in his generation , or he was sound , upright plain hearted with god : and it is that god spake to abraham , gen. . . walk before me and be thou perfect ; or sound , upright , plain , in thy walking before me : now , though job , noah , jacob , abraham , are said to be perfect ; yet it is not to be found in the scriptures , that god ever said of all or any one of them ( or of any other meer saint ) they were perfect without sin in this world : but the contrary is ( as may afterwards appear ) often found in holy writ : forasmuch as it is sincerity ( or the law written in the heart , psal . . . ) which is the only gospel perfection . third scripture , psal . . . i said , i will take heed to my wayes , that i sin not with my tongue : compare with jam. . . if any man effend not in word , the same is a perfect man. reply , though david heedfully endeavoured circumspection , not to offend with his tongue , yet he sinned with it , psal . . i said in my haste all men are lyars : yea , frequently did he offend with his tongue , in and about the matter of vriah the hittite . . might it be supposed , that david sinned not with his tongue , yet he might sin in thought ; although , it be most true , which the apostle james speaks above , sc . if any man offend not in word , the same is a perfect man. reply , . these words , jam. . . in their litteral sense , denote a supposition [ if ] any man offend not in word , that is , ( as dr. manton in loc : saith ) if there be such a man , who never spake a word untruly , nor unseasonably , nor uncharitably ; a man whose words were alwayes without vanity , and folly . without obsenity , rash oathes , and passion , speaking only known truths : if these be such a man , who at all times avoids the evils of the tongue , i will ( as if the apostle should say ) make bold to call him a perfect man , such another as is not to be found among mortals . and thus moses ( by way of supposition ) said unto the children of israel , lev. . which [ if ] a man do , he shall live in them : here moses proposeth an unlikely , yea , an impossible practice , under the word [ if ] which if a man 〈◊〉 ( but where is the man , that can do the law of god , as exactly as he commands it to be done ) implying , there 's not such a man to be found in the world , so here , if a man offend not in word , the same is a perfect man , but such a non offender is not to be found , and consequently not a man of a perfect tongue . . some take the word [ perfect ] for upright , sincere ; that is to say , if a man offend not in word , he is perfect or upright , sincere without guile : those that are so are expressed by the term perfect , as in psal . . ● . afore noted : so in chron. . . with a perfect heart they offered willingly to the lord , compare ver . . in the uprightness of my heart , i have willingly offered : again , we read in ( chron. . . all these ( sc . an hundred and twenty thousand , ver . . ) men of war , came with a p●rfect heart to hebron : surely he must have a legion within him , that would interpret perfect , here , ( referring to the hundred and twenty thousand men of war above ) for a perfect freedome from sin . th . scripture , psal . . . blessed are the undefiled in the way , ver . . they do no iniquity . reply , the sixth verse following , explains the two foregoing verses ( sc . , . above ) then shall i not be ashamed , when i have respect to all thy commandments : hence , ver . . the prophet wishes , o , that my wayes were directed to keep thy statutes ; furthermore he strongly affirms , psal . . . verely , verely man at his best estate , is altogether vanity : therefore he cries out , psal . . . enter not into judgement with thy servant , for in thy sight shall no man living be justified : now , if to be undefiled , and to do no iniquity : be to be understood in a quakers sense ; that is to say , strictly for an absolute freedome from all sin in heart and life : then david had excluded himself out of a blessed estate . th . scripture , mat. . . be ye therefore perfect , even as your father which is in heaven is perfect . reply , the charge is only to be [ as ] perfect ▪ not [ so ] perfect let it be observe ●here , that [ as ] is only a note of likeness , or quality ; in which respect , the meanest saint upon earth , is like his father in heaven , i. e. as to the likeness of quality : for he hath of the same pure and perfect nature , being made partaker of the divine nature , pet. . and paul exhorts the philippians , chap. . . let this mind be in you , which was in christ : the meanest saint hath the same mind in reference to his new nature , that is in god himself : that is , he is like to god , who beg●tteth all his children in his own likeness , eph. . . but in regard of the likeness of equality , thus no man is like the father or the son , in the degrees of these perfect or pure qualities : the most pure saint is not equal to god the father , in this or that , or the other , which is infinitely pure and perfect in him ; this interpretation is only proper to the text of scripture above , which speaks not of a perfection from sin : though the father be perfect from all sin ; yet the evangelist hath not asserted it in this place : and therefore deductions of freedome from sin ( in the saints of god in this life ) cannot from thence be dra●n nor rat●onally argued : the sixth scrip●ure . rom . . being then made free from sin . reply . to be made free from sin , may not be understood of a freedome from a being of sin in this life , but only of a freedome from the reign and dommi●n of sin : as the apostle explains it , in ver . . let not sin reign in your mortal boaus , and in ver . . sin shall not have dominion over you : that is , ●e shall not be the servants of sin , as it is implied in ver . . and so to be free from sin is to be free from a voluntary subjection ( in will or work ) to the comman●ing motions of corrupt and sinful nature , ver . . it s most certain it cannot be understood of a freedome from sin simply and absolut●ly , for in ch●p . . . the same apostle chargeth sin , both upon the weaker and stronger saints : why dost thou judge thy brother , ( this judging , was the sin of the weaker christians : or why dost thou set at thy brother , ( this setting at nought the weaker brother ) was the sin of the stranger christians : well then ▪ there can be no state of perfect freedome from sin in this life : as the same apostle in the same chapter hath inserted , ver . . for he that is dead is free from sin . the seventh scripture , rom. . . that the righteousness of the law , might be fulfilled in us . reply , [ in us ] that is , in our nature in general ( heb. . . not in our particular persons , rom. . . i have given a large return to the sense of this place of scripture , in the dispute ( pa's , , &c. where i do refer the reader . the eighth scripture , rom. . , . for when the gentiles which have not the law , do by nature the things contained in the law , these having not the law , are a law unto themselves : which shew the work of the law written in their hearts , and their conscience also bearing witness , and their thoughts the main while accusing , or else excusing one another . reply , there is naturally in all men ( as such ) a light of direction ▪ two manner of wayes . . by the law written in their hearts ; ( for which the apostle is here express . ) for when the gentiles ( meaning the unconverted gent●●s ) which have not the law do by nature ( or natural lig●t ) the things contained in the law , these having not the law ( formally published or preached to them ) are a law unto themselves which shew the work of the law written in their hearts , their conscience also bearing wi●ness &c. and as all have a light of direction , from the law written in their hearts , or in the book of natural conscience , so also ▪ . they have a light of direction , from the law of creation , or from that which is written of god , in the book of the creature : and paul makes this light , the ground of the righteousness of god , in that dreadful revelation of his wrath , chap , . , against all ungodliness , and unrighteousness : yea , for this very reason ; because , that which may be known of god , is manifest in them , ( or to them , ver . . for god hath shewed it to them : the whole is , though all men have not a light of direction from god so powerful , as to change them , and make them holy ( much less perfect without sin ) yet they have a light so clear and full , as is enough to make them guilty : and when they refuse to follow this light of direction , in the book of the creature , chap. . . in doing what is right : then follows the second light , to wit , the light of conviction : their natural consciences troubling them , or ( as pauls phrase is ) their thoughts accusing them , because they have done that which is not right : which plainly argues the imperfection of sin , and not a perfection from any , ( much less from all ) sin , in men , as men. the ninth scripture , phil. . . let us therefore , as many as be perfect , be thus minded . reply , the word perfect here , may not be taken , for a perfect freedome from sin : for paul , ver . . saith ( in effect ) that he was not perfect from sin , which may appear by the th verse if by any means , i might attain unto the resurrection of the dead : now , the estate which accompanies the resurrection from the dead , excludes all sin , the saints shall then be legally perfect : this , the apostle aimed at , ver . . and used all means to accomplish , ver . . but he could not attain it , as he doth confess in the th verse not as though i had already attained , either were already perfect : meaning , with that perfection from sin , which accompanies the resurrection of the dead : so then ▪ paul doth not only deny himself to be perfect from sin , but withal inferres , such an estate of perfect freedome ▪ not to be attainable in this life , by any meer saint ; because it attends the resurrection from the dead ; which is sufficiently evidenced from the foregoing verses ( he grants a gospel , ver . . but denies a legal perfection , ver . . if so , then the phrase perfect , in the th verse above , cannot be understood , ( in a quakers sense ) for paul's being perfect from sin ; we may not affirm that of paul , which he himself effectually doth deny , without manifest wrong to the holy spirit . besides , the term perfect ( let us , as many as be perfect ) may be aken ( as learned , judicious authors have averr'd ) for some ripeness , and growth in matters of christianity ; as in the jewish discipline , there were two sorts of learners , beginners , these did only exercise themselves in the first principles of religious matters ; and while they were but endeavouring beginners , they were accounted weak , or imperfect in christianity ; then there were others , that had made some progress in , and attained to some growth in christian matters learned , these were called strong or perfect ( in comparison of the beginners ) thus , perfect is to be understood , in the cor. . . howbeit , we speak wisdome among them that are perfect : meaning , however imperfect weaklings are taken with inticing words of mans wisdome , ver . . accounting the preaching of the cross ( christ crucified ) foolishnest ; yet , grown mortified christians will discern wisdom and sublimity , in the plain preaching of iesus christ crucified ; and this sense , may be accommodated to this place of scripture , phil. . . above ) as many of us as be perfect , i. e. such of us , as are no beginners , or learners , such as try experiments in religion : but perfect , such as have made some towardly progress therein , that have attained to some gospel strength , ripeness , or growth in the blessed doctrine of faith. obj. but if any teaching , seducing quaker , should say , viz. that by the word perfect , as it referrs to saints in this world , it doth signifie a perfect freedome from all sin ? answ . . this was the lying doctrine of the heretical catharish's , and now taught by seducing quakers ; but no where owned in the scriptures of truth ; where is that scripture to be found , which saith in so many words , sc . that this or that saint , was perfect from all sin in this life ; when it shall be shewen , it will be seriously considered . . solomon makes a chalenge to all the world , prov. . . who can say ▪ i have made my heart clean , i am pure from my sin : that is , none can say it truly ( though some will say it bouldly ) that any saint of god in this life , is absolutely freed from the having of sin , which is evident from the confession of the most eminent saints , ioh. . . if we say that we have no sin , we deceive our selves , and the truth is not in us . but to this scripture , the quaker p●etends an answer , sc . that in v. . the same apostle saith , if we say we have not sinned , we make him a lyar : here hence , the teaching quakers do infe●r , saying , 't is true , the born of god should lie , if they did deny themselves to have sinned , before they were in the new birth , but not after it , alledging , ioh. . . whatsoever is born of god , doth not commit sin . reply , . the th verse above , sc . if we say , that we have not sinned , we make him a lyar : by these words the apo●●les intend , their having of sin after ( as well as before ) the new birth ; for , observe the th . verse , if we ( that is , we , who are in the new birth ) say that we have no sin , we deceive our selves , and the truth is not in us : note here , that the words in this th verse are expresly of the present time ; to wit , if we ( not have had ) no sin , &c. which doth most plainly prove ; that the born of god have sin after ( as well as before ) their new birth . . as to the words alledged out of the ioh. . . whosoever is born of god , doth not commit sin : answ . . if the words should be understood in the quakers sense above asserted : then the new birth would exclude the being of sin , in all the born of god : for the new birth agrees to them all , to one as well as to another ; as the reason given is the same verse doth testifie : because his seed remaineth in him , and he cannot sin , because he is born of god : now the seed remains in all the born of god , as well as in any : well then , it must be meant of all saints , or none : now , if the teaching quakers should be so stark mad , as to affirm all saints to be free from sin , the scripture above , ioh. . . will reprove their madness : for , if we ( who are the real saints , and born of god ) say , that we have no sin , we deceive our selves , and the truth is not in us : all men may see , that these words were spoken of and by such saints , as had , ver . . fellowship with the father , and his son jesus christ : and yet they have certified , sc . if that we say , that we have no sin , &c. again , that the words in ioh. . . cannot be meant of freedome from the nature and being of sin , in the born of god , but only of the trade and custome of sinning , which is explained in the foregoing th verse for the devil sinneth from the beginning , i. e. he hath never ceased to sin since he began , it hath ever been his trade or customary way ; thus to sin , the born of god cannot , for the course and custome of sin being broken , there 's not now such a free correspondency between the soul and sin , as before regeneration : this is the character of the unregenerate , they cannot cease to sin , pet. . . but so the born of god sinneth not , ( i. e. without cessation , ) inasmuch as he is daily pleading ( in his prayers ) against sin , desiring strength , not only against , but victory over it : thus is was with paul , rom , . . o wretched man that i am , who shall deliver me from this body of death , sc . from this burden and bondage of inherent sinful corruption ; yea , all this , after he was most truly the born of god : it is therefore a manifest wresting of the above mentioned texts , ( sc . john . . in forcing them to say , that the born of god sinned , before they were in the new birth , but not after it . the tenth scripture , eph. . . that ye might be filled with all the fulness of god : which ( some say ) excludes the being of sin in saints . reply , . the phrase [ fulness ] is to be expounded by a distinction , there being a double fulness ; namely , of parts and degrees : for the first of these , we read , act. . . but he ( stephen ) being full of the holy ghost ; this respects the fulness of parts only ; that is , he had something of every grace , though not a perfection of any grace ; an infant may be said to be a perfect man , as it hath a perfection or fulness of parts , but not of growth and degrees . . the fulness of god , in respect of degrees , is to be had only in heaven above ; and even there , the apostle intends not equality ( but quality ) of fulness : that is , a divine and glorious fulness of or from god : so then the fulness of god above expressed , is to be understood of a fulness ( not on earth , but ) in heaven , which is the proper import of that place of scripture : for , the apostle prayes , that they [ might ] be filled , &c. and so they should be in heaven , but he asserts not , that either they were , or should be so filled in this life : the person is , because here , we know but in part , cor. . , . for now we see through a glasse darkly , but then face to face , now , i know in part , but then i shall know , even as i am known : therefore , the fulness of god above , doth not exclude the being of sin in this life . the eleventh scripture , luk. . . walking ( sc . zecharias and elizabeth ' his wife , ver . . ) in all the commandments and ordinances of the lord blameless : here the quakers think they are perfect saints . reply , the word [ blameless ] doth not ( as the quakers would have it ) signifie [ sinless ] before the lord , but rebukeless before men , in this world , no man can be so blameless , as to be sinless in the sight of god ; 't is true , we read . numb . . . he hath not seen iniquity in jacob , that is , not with an eye of revenge , but pity : god saw iniquity in jacob his people , but not so as to destroy them , which was the unwearied design & desire of balack the princes of moab , ver . . in which sense , the not seeing of iniquity in jacob , is only meant . indeed , at the glorious second coming of the lords christ , then the persons of the just shall be sinlesly blameless before the lord , as in cor. . ● . that ye may be blameless in the day of our lord jesus christ : in that day of christs coming in glory , , the saints shall be found of god in peace , without spot and blameless , pet. ▪ , . but not thus in this life ; nevertheless , i willingly grant , that believers may walk in all the commandments and ordinances of the lord , blameless , that is to say rebukeless , in regard of men : this is verified by the apostle , phil. . . that ye may be blameless , and harmless , the sons of god without rebuke , in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation , among whom ye shine as lights in the world : in which sense alone , zecharias , and his wi●e elizabeth , were blameless : for zecharias was so far from being perfect without sin , that he was found ( at the very time , that the words above were uttered of him ) guilty of the great sin of vnbelief , and for it was punished with dumbness , luk. . . behold thou shalt be dumb , and not able to speak , until the day that these things shall be performed , because thou dost not believe my words . obj. here the quaker will be apt to say . but there is no sin charged upon elizabeth ; so that she might be perfect without sin ? ans . . the phrase [ blameless ] ( on which the quaker puts his whole stress ) may refer to an unbeliever , yea , to a persecutor of jesus christ of nazareth , phil. . . touching the righteousness which is in the law , blameless ; even then , when paul was graceless , he was blameless : this i have only noted by way , that teaching quakers may plainly see , that the word [ blameless ] simply in its own nature , will be so far from proving perfection of grace that it will not prove any truth of grace . . it will not therefore follow , that elizabeth was perfect without sin , because there is no mention made of her sin ; let it be well observed , that in the th verse above , they are both said to be righteous and blameless , even then when the best of them both , was guilty of actual sin : now , if the expressions of righteous and blameless , were applicable to zecharias , when he was under sin ; then the same expressions ( sc . of righteous and blameless ) will not argue her to be more free from sin , then her husband , there being the same reason for the one , as for the other : to deny this , were to destroy the rules of right reasoning ; besides , death took hold of her , as well as of him , which is the wages of sin , rom. . . . if the term blameless , should prove zecharias and elizabeth ( in their life time ) sinless , or perfect without sin , it would prove the scriptures of god sinful , ( which to assert were blasphemy , ) for the holy scriptures do utterly deny such a blamelesness , or freedome from sin in mortals ; as in eccless , . . for there is not a just man upon the earth , that doth good and sinneth not : that is , that sinneth not in doing good : the spirit doth say simply , that there is not a just man , that sinneth not , but a just man that doth good , and sinneth not : intimating , that in our most religious actions , there is some mixture of sin ; hence the prophet , isai . . . that all our righteousness is as filthy rags ; noting to us , that no righteous work of ours is so pure , but there is some taint , and filth of sin cleaving to it , which without a mediator ( in the rigor of the law ) would be damnable : so then , though the action ( as to the matter ) be not sinful yet there is some sin in the action : this difference is exprest , exod. . where the high-priest , is said , to bear the iniquity of the holy things ; holy things in the matter of them , yet iniquity in the manner of performing them , rom. . . how to perform that which is good i find not : here hence it is , that we read , king. . if they sin against thee , for there is no man that sinneth not : and again , chron. . . for there is no man that sinneth not : whence the apostle james , chap. . . for in many things we offend all : he saith , we , including himself , though an eminent saint , and an apostle of great holiness ; all of us offend in many things , and many of us in all things : likewise our blessed lord and only saviour , teacheth the choicest of gods children to pray unto their father in heaven , for dayly and continual pardon of sin , mat. . there is in all true believers , a cursed root of bitterness , which god doth mortifie , but not nullifie in this world ; 't is subdued , but not removed , 't is cast down , but not cast out : though grace makes the combat , yet death only makes the conquest over sin : i proceed to the quakers second principle ; to wit , that the written scriptures are not ( . ) the word of god. ( . ) nor the infallible standing rule of faith and life . reply , . vvhereas they say , the written scriptures are not the word of god : if thereby they mean the scriptures , as expressed by humane tongues , or as written , or printed with ink and paper , by the art of the vvriter , or printer ; if so considered , we do not affirm the scriptures to be the vvord of god : but as the written scriptures do declare the mind of god to us , so the matter therein contained , is the declarative vvord of god : as in heb. , . god who at sundry times , and in divers manners , spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets , hath in these last dayes spoken to us by his son. qu. what hath the son of god spoken , touching the scriptures ? ans . he tells us , that the scripture is the vvord of god , mark . . making the word of god of none effect . here the son of god , calls the fifth commandment ( in the written scriptures ) the vvord of god , and in iohn . . they believed the scripture , the word which jesus had said . also ioh. . , . and jesus answered them , it is written in your law , i said , ye are gods : if he called them gods , unto whom the word of god came , and the scripture cannot be broken . note , in these texts ▪ our lord and only saviour , jesus christ , the son of god affirms , that the vvord of god , is the scripture , and that the scripture is the vvord of god , as being convertible terms ; that is , what is truely and properly spoken of the one , is also spoken of the other , for so it is with all propositions convertible . moreover , tim. . . all scripture is given by inspiration of god , and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness : that is , in the righteousness both of faith , and life : and therefore as the scripture is the vvord of god , so likewise it is the infallible standing rule of faith and life . it being evidently so : i need not stay , to shew you the excellency of any part of the scripture , having pointed you at such an original of the whole , which adviseth you seriously to consider , what the lord speaks to all such as they are : we read , numb . . . the soul that doth ought presumptuously ( whether he be born in the land , or a stranger ) the same reproacheth the lord : o how highly do you teaching quakers reproach the lord , when you deny the scriptures to be the word of god ) that soul shall be cut off from the peeple ? , but mark the ground and reason of it : because he hath despised the word of god , ver . . and hath broken his commandments : note here , that the lord concludes his word , and written commandments to be one and the same thing , and thereupon the lord passeth this heavy sentence ; that soul shall be utterly cut off , his iniquity shall be upon him : i. e. it shall never be forgiven him , ( except god in mercy grant repentance for and from these dead works , ) o ye quakers , are you not herein , worse then the egyptian heathens : for they believed the word spoken to them by moses , to be the word of god , exod. . . he that feared the word of the lord amongst the servants of pharaoh , made his servants and his cattle to flie into the houses : howbeit , they will think themselves either wronged or feared , if their arguments be not considered . . argument , that which is the word of god , dwells within , col. . . let the word of christ dwell in you richly in all wisdome : whereas that which you ( meaning christians ) call the word , is the scripture without . reply , . is there any word asserted to be the word of christ , but the written word of truth , whereof christ is both the author and subject , if there be when it shall be shewen , it will be considered . the very phrase [ let ] the word of christ dwell in you , denotes , that the apostles words , are an exhortation to get the matter contained in the very letter of the word of christ : that it might dwell richly in them getting heart acquaintance with the matter contained in the letter of the word of christ , and that richly , sc . still increasing therein , that they might thereby be the better enabled , in the use of the duties of teaching , admonishing , and singing of psalms , in heart and voice , as it s expressed and implied in the same th verse . . those duties and services , of teaching , admonishing , and singing of psalms . which are spiritual hymns or songs , were to be done to the lord , ( as in the same th verse , ) that is , to the glory of the lord : now there are no duties and holy services done thus to the lord , which are not done in obedience to his will : but the lord hath no other will ( as a rule of obedience ) then his will revealed in the written scriptures : there is nothing that doth please god in any act of worship , unless he sees himself obeyed : hence , i may safely infer , that the quakers worship cannot be accepted of god , because it is not only without , but against the revealed will and rule of obedience , this cannot with any truth be gainsayed or denied . . arg. the written scripture cannot be the word of god , because it consists of words . reply , . this argument proves fully , that the quakers are under the power of satan , act. . . grosly blind in , and ignorant of the inspired word of christ : for in scripture language , word and words , are of the same signification : as for instance , jer. . . thy words were sound , and thy word was unto me : jer. . , . this word came : write the words : amos . , . hearing the words : seek the word : numb . . . the spirit calls the commandments of god , consisting of many words , the word of god : and the many words , which god commanded moses to speak to the egyptians , exod. . . is there called the word of the lord : likewise our saviour , ioh. . . calls the scripture , co●taining many words : and so also in , ioh. . . to these places of scripture , many more might ( were there any need ) be added , shewing that word in the singular , and words in the plural , are synonimous and of the same import in the holy scriptures , and therefore the cavil is idle and vain : i pass to the second part of this principle , viz. that the written scriptures are not the infallible standing rule of faith and life . . reply , this plainly argues an evil and vnbelieving heart , in the revealed truths of god : and distructive ( as much as in them lies ) to the great end of divine inspirations : for god purposely inspired holy men , not so much for their own sakes , as for this end ; that what they writ and spake from gods inspiration in the scripture , might be the standing and infallible rule for faith and holiness of life , in all succeeding ages and generations ; and for this cause hath paul recorded , rom. . . for whatsoever things were written aforetime , were written for our learning , that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope : note , that we , the apostle paul includes himself for one , that did learn of the scriptures written afore-time , as the only infallible rule . and thus was it also taken by our lord jesus christ , luk. . , . chap. . to . more especially in the hour of his temptations , he kept his mind close to the written word of god ; the scriptures penned by moses , dan●st . . to repel the devil ; saying , it is written , mat. . ver . , ver . ver . . with this sword of the spirit , three times ( as you see ) the lord jesus christ wounds the devil ; now doth the lords christ thus honour the written scriptures : who are ye then , that dishonour the same : notwithstanding , we will hear what they have ( by way of argument ) to say for themselves , concerning this matter . their . argument , the scripture it self sends us to the spirit for our rule , gal. . . therefore the written scripture is not our rule of faith and life . reply , the apostle in this text exhorts the galatians to walk in the spirit , ( sc . of faith ) i have not ( as if paul should have said , ) forget my former discourse concerning faith , ver . . nor do i declare it , in perswading you to mutual love , ver . . and that he might be understood aright , he adds , walk in the spirit , and ye shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh : for the spirit of faith , cor. . . purifying the heart , act. . . doth ( by that means ) not only resist occasional prejudices , or lustful desires of revenge , but begets also a composure of offences , and a healing of injuries , which are apt to arise from one saint towards another : hence , the apostle infers , walk in the spirit , that is , ( saith calvin in loc . ) be ye exercised therein , wrestle in spirit against all prejudicial returns of the flesh , following the motions , sayings , and actings of the rule of the spirit , ( which is the inspired word : for pet. . . holy men of god spake as they were moved by the holy ghost , ) and in so doing ( saith calvin ) ye shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh ( i. e. of corrupt sinful nature ) as in the th . ver . above asserted : surely then , the spirit of god doth not send us from the written rule , to a quakers spirit ( their idol light within ) as the only infallible rule of faith and life . . arg. the spirit was before the written scriptures , and therefore the spirit in us , ought to be our rule for faith and life . reply , we know that seducing quakers teach , because the spirit is anticedent to the scriptures , therefore none can walk in the scriptures , till they walk in the spirit : the consequence is as lame , as a teaching quaker is blind : however , it is granted , that the spirit is anticedent to the scripture , in respect of time , or as to the revelation of the scripture , howbeit , the scriptures are before the spirit , in respect of aid & assistance , thus the apostle , pet. . . but unto us they did minister the things which are now reported unto you by them , that have preached the gospel unto you , with the holy ghost sent down from heaven : which text of scripture clearly shews , that the holy spirit ( in respect of special help and assistance ) is subsequent , to the scriptural gospel preached : this receives further confirmation from the prophet , isai . . . to the law and to the testimony ( the written word ) if they speak not according to this word , it is because there is no light ( or beam of the spirit ) in them ; fairly intimating that the spirits walk ( in a way of aid ) is in the paths of the scriptures ; and consequently no christians can walk in the spirit , unless he first walk in and by the scriptures : again , joh. . . he that believeth on me , as the scripture hath said , but this spake he of the spirit , ver . ● . ( sc . of the power and help of the spirit ) as subsequent to the scriptures , and in luk. . . and as he ( christ ) was teaching , the power , ( sc . the spirit ) of the lord was present to heal them : likewise , joh. . . when the spirit of truth is come , he will guid you into all truth : that is into all scripture truth : so then , though the spirit be anticedent to scriptures , in regard of revelation , yet in respect of aid , help and assistance ( which is the matter in hand ) the spirit is subsequent to the scriptures , and in this sense the holy scriptures are the infallible standing rule of faith and life , rom. . . tim. . . d. argument . that there was a rule of faith and life , long before the scriptures were written : therefore the written scripture is not the rule of faith and life . reply , this consequence also is weak and infirm ; it doth not therefore follow , that the wr●tten scripture is not our rule , because there was a rule before the scripture was written : for , this is that which we affirm . sc . that the matter contained in the holy scriptures , is the only infallible standing rule of faith and life : which matter now contained in the written scripture , is the same with that which was before the scriptures were written : for , when god revealed himself by visions , dreams , &c. it was still the s●me gospel matter , even the same that is expressed in the written word of the new-testament : there hath not been since the gospel was preached to adam ( gen. . . ) any increase of gospel truths , in respect of essentials , but only in respect of explications : though the manner of conveyance is different then and now , yet the matter or gospel doctrines conveyed , is still the same : t is true , from adam to moses ( more then . years ) the people of god had no word written , yet they had a word given from god to be their rule ; else , their worship would have been ( like a quakers ) will worship , a contrived , or devised worship to pacific or please god , he could never bear with , had not the law of sacrificing , and the like , been by gods institution and appointment , the lord would have rejected it : now , though sacrifices ( which typed out christ ) were offered before the law of sacrificing was written , yet not before the law of sacrificing was given : for , it was given from the beginning as all other parts of worship were ; being carried from one to another by tradition , from the fathers to the children ( as in the holy stories of the patriarchs it doth appear ) as it were from hand to hand , till at last the la● was written , and the scriptures penned by moses : well then , though the rule they had before , was not an institution written , yet it was an institution sent forth , & given by god himself , which rule of faith and life then given , was ( i say again as to the matter therein contained ) the same with the instituted rule written ; now then , all that ye teaching quakers have said , is no more but this , sc . that you deny this way of written scripture , to have alwayes been the only way of gospel-conveyance ; and from thence , ye pretend to advance and extoll your unwritten scrip●ure , ( that idol light within ) that thereby ye may the more craftily throw down the scriptures inspired of god : surely ▪ this plot cannot be from the spirit of the true christ ▪ but from your own ( as the lord knows ) blind rotten and wicked spirit , which tells you , that you are no further bound to obey the written scriptures , then your light ( that false christ ) within , shall make you willing to obey . arg. . that the spirit is not to be tried by the scriptures , but the scriptures are to be tried by the spirit , therefore the spirit ( not the scriptures ) is our standing rule for faith and life . reply . the father of lies , cannot make a greater lie , then that which is contained in this argument : for it plainly makes the inspiring spirit , and the inspired scripture to be of different natures ; which is contrary to the many scriptures of truth afore asserted : there 's not any quaker , that hath to this day produced one text of scripture to make good this argument : where is that place of scripture to be found , which saith , the scriptures are to be tried by the spirit ? doth not the spirit it self require us john . . not to believe every spirit , but to try ( not the scriptures , but ) the spirits , ( i. e. spiritual gifts ) whether they are of god : and how did the noble elders at berea , try the spirit by which paul preached . the th . verse tells us , it was by their searching of the scriptures , daily , whether these things were so ; it being an article of faith with them , that the written scriptures were the churches standing rule for faith and life : and therefore , ver . . many of them believed , sc . that jesus of nazareth was the true christ and their only saviour : surely , the elders above , trying the spirit by the search of the scriptures doth sufficiently prove , that the spirits are to be tried by the scripture , and not the scripture by the spirit : the end of gods inspiring the scripture , was that it might thereby be enabled to try the spirit ; the spirit is so far from questioning or trying the scripture , that it ever witnesseth for or against , as the scripture witnesseth , being indited by the holy ghost , pet. . for that end , should the spirit of truth , witness otherwise then according to the inspired scripture : ( that is to say , if the spirit should witness one thing to be a truth in the scripture , and another thing contrary to it in a mans conscience ) the spirit should be divided against it self , it should be spirit of contradiction : for instance ; the spirit witnesseth in the scripture , that the true christ and our only saviour was and is jesus christ of nazareth , a man approved of god , who was taken by the jews , slain and hanged upon a tree , whom god raised from the dead the third day , and exalted to be a prince and saviour : thus the spirit witnesseth in the scriptures , act. . , . chap. . , , . but a quaker pretends , that the spirit witnesseth in his conscience , that there is a light within him , which is the true christ and only saviour , which is not the man jesus of nazareth , which the jews never slew , nor hanged upon a tree , nor was ever raised by god from a bodily death . again , the spirit witnesseth in the scripture : that he is a righteous man , who walketh in all the commandments and ordinances of the lord , luk. . . but a quaker pretends that the spirit witnesseth in his conscience , that he is a righteous man , who forsakes all the commanded ordinances of the lord. now should we christians be so weak and wicked , as to believe a quakers pretended spirit in him , to be the spirit of god ( and not of the devil ) should we not then be guilty of this dreadful blasphemy : namely , of maki●g the spirit of god , a spirit divided against it self , a spirit of contradiction ( teaching lies in the scripture ) by witnessing therein the things ab●ve , ( touching jesus christ , and his ordinances ) to be the truths ; and other things contrary to them , for truths in a quakers conscience , or ( as he calls it ) in his tender part , this were to take strong & damnable delusions , for sacred and scriptural inspirations : that inspiration , which is either without the wri●ten word , or against it , is an hellish imposture : indeed , it s no marvel , that the teaching quakers would have their spirit within , that idolized light ) to try the scriptures ( not to be tried by them ) for if they migh● herein prevail , ( and withal get into the sad●le ) they would undoubtedly soon arraign , try , and condemn the inspired bible of god to fire and faggot : this conclusion may ( without breach of charity ) be grounded upon the scurrilous pens of some s●ducing , teaching quakers ▪ whom in●ight herein , ( with their bold expressions ) have declared ( hav●ng them by me ) but i feared the swelling of these confutations , and the discouragement that might thereby be given to the reader . by the way , i lay down this caution : to wi● , though the holy and blessed spirit of god , be above all tryal yet the ●are spirits ( even the spirits i. e. the spiritual gifts of all m●n ) which must be submitted to tryal , whether they are of god , i. e. of the book of god , cor. . . wherein there is not any speech or passage , but the infinite wisdome of god hath thought fit to be recorded , as that which hath in it , somewhat for our instruction ; even the blasphemy of the fool , which contradicts not only the truth , but the very being of god : which teacheth us this divine truth , that there are seven ( that is , all manner of abominations in the heart of man : yea , we may draw useful instructions from the words of judas the traitor , after satan had entred into him and filled his heart : not only so , but from the words of satan , in his temptations and proposals unto christ ; much more may we from the sayings of holy men , which are all material truths , from the inspiration of god , and therefore fit to try the spirits ▪ ( or gifts of all men as above ) which must be submitted to the tryal of the scripture touch stone . in the last place , perhaps some teaching quakers may say , sc . we own the written scripture , as a witness-bearer , or declarer of that light which is in man. reply , we deny the written scripture , to be a witness bearer to your light within : for if the scriptures of god , should bear witness to that gross piece of foolery ( call'd light within ) it should witness it self to be no word of god : for , . your idol light within , saith , that the soul of a man is part of god , and no created substance . ( this will be debated in the next head. . that the light that is in every man , by natural generation , is the true christ and only saviour . . that the sacred oracles of god ( the scriptures of truth ) are not the standing rule for faith and life ( but your unwritten scriptures , that whimsical light within you . ) . that this light within , will bring men to an absolute perfection , a freedome from all sin in this life , and to heaven also . . that the lord jesus christ ( though god-man blessed for ever ) is not the son of god , the saviour of the world. . that the person of christ is not in heaven above , that it is blasphemy to affirm that he is there . . that the light within man , is the true scripture , and word of god even the everlasting word ; and therefore long before the written scriptures : to this last , i will make some reply . reply , let this be granted , sc . that the light in man was long before the written scriptures : yet the written scriptures do declare a truth to us , more ancient then the oldest quaker , or his idol light within him : namely , what the el●hims spake each to other , saying , let us make man in our own image , gen , . . and having made man ; it tells us , what god said , sc . be fruitful and multiply , ver . . and behold i have given you of every tree bearing fruit , ver . . and god commanded the man ▪ saying , of every tree of the garden , &c. gen. . . moreover the scriptures tells us of divers things long before themselves were written : to wit ▪ that ( after the fall ) the word of god was manifested to adam and his wise , and likewise , that god manifested himself to cain ( by his word ) three times , gen. . , . and afterward that the word of god came to noah , and so to abraham , and others . now ( o ye teaching , seducing quakers ) i would ask you this question : sc . could your light within tell you ought of all this , if the written scriptures had not told it first ? and yet , you would fain make us believe , that your light within is the true scripture , and word of god ▪ even the everlasting word : so that this most notorious lie , ( the whimsie , called light within ) is the new devised ground of your faith , and religious worship . oh , ye poor soul deluded , and soul-deluding ones : know assuredly , that this doctrine of your beloved idol-light in your own addle brains ) is directly contrary to what the lord christ said to his father , concerning his apostles , joh. . . i have given them thy words , ( word , ver . . ) which thou gavest me , and they have received them , and have known surely , that i came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send m● . note here , that the words which the father gave to christ , and christ to his apostles , they believed , and ( so believing ) preached them to the world : the substance whereof is in their written gospel , and epistles : which is to true christians , the word of god , and the ground of their faith , but ye ( soul-deceivers ) labour to dissolve this ground of our christian faith , because ye would lay a foundation of your own humane invention , sc . an un bloody light within , which idolized light , hath no more real blood in it , then there is in the transubstantiated bread of your popish brethren ; wherein both ye and they do exactly agree , in one feigned blood-less sacrifice for sin : which is evidently another gospel , which stands under the doubled curse of god , gal. . , . which is further confirmed , heb. . . without shedding of blood is no remission . o read and tremble before the i●raversible decree of wrath and vengeance go forth : for without shedding of blood ( sc . true humane blood ) there is no remission , as above , and consequently the unavoidable curse of hell and damnation , doth attend a non remission , which leads me to the quakers third principle . the third principle , that the soul of man is god in part , and therefore infallible . reply , this titular principle , consists of two parts ; which shall be dealt with distinctly . . that the soul of man is god in part : thus james nayler ( ●n his book , love to the lost , page . ) teaching fulness of light ( or soul ) within , in which fulness is ( meaning the fulness of god in part ) and john tayne ( in his book of ten epistles , page . ) saith , the soul of man is god in part , who in page . renders this reason for it , because the soul is no created substance : and john lilborn ( a la●e grand leading quaker ) in his book of six particulars , page . he affirms , that the light in man , was the light in god himself , in whom is no darkness at all ; referring to tim. . . who only hath immortality , dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto , which no man hath seen or can see , to him be honour and power everlasting . reply , although these words , do most plainly exclude any meer man from possessing god , in his essential nature : yet in page . he inferrs , that the light which is the infinite essence of god , is the living ( or quickening ) holy , tender part of man , the everlasting word of god , by whom all t●ings were made : and in page . further saith , it is the very principle of true religion : consider now , if it be so , then it must be such a principle to the devils , and all damned creatures : for : as creatures the everlasting word made them , and their being , life and motion is in him ; bec●us● he that is being it self , is the bottom of the being of all created natures , and consequently ( according to john lilbourn ) the light in man ( which he calls the everlasting word ) by whom all things are made , mu●● be the principle of true religion in the devils and damned ( o hel●ish divinity & doctrine ) for even they ( sc . the devils & damned ) live and move and have their dependance upon the divine nature , or infinite essence of the godhead , otherwise they would all fall to nothing by an annihilation nevertheless , this is in a special manner to be noted , viz. it s one thing that the infinite essence thus possesseth men , devils and all things else , and another thing , for man ( or any other creature ) to possess the 〈◊〉 essence of god , to his happiness and blessedness ; for , so man only possesseth god , according to his revealed will : but through the w●nt of a right understanding of this special difference above stated , it comes to pass , that this untoward generation dream , the light within them , to be god in part , and hence inferr , that the soul is god in part here , and full in god hereafter ; for which they do pretend especially four texts of scripture , to wit , gen ● . . eccles . . . act. . . . pet. . . reply , to the first scripture , gen. . . and the lord god formed man of the dust of the ground , and breathed into his nosthrils the breath of life , and man became a living soul : hence they argue , that the soul ( in this life ) is god in part . reply , . it is to be noted ; that in the former part of the verse , we have the creation of adams body : the lord god formed man , that is he fashio●ed the outward and inward part of adam , straight and upright , with all his outward limbs and lineaments in their due places , without ; and veins , arteries , venticles , and bowels in their due places within . . the creation of mans soul is described , i. e. breathed into his nosthrils , ( which syn●cdochically denotes the whole man ) the breath of life : go●s order herein is very observable ; sc . after the lord had formed his body , he gives in ( not himself in , but ) from himself the soul : here 's the nature of gods act [ breathed ] it is spoken after the manner of men , for as god hath no hands to form , so nor mouth to breathe ▪ so that hereby must be meant , gods powerful creation of his body , and infusion of his soul : which god doth as easily , as man breathes : but to the matter in hand ; . the divine being is infinite and indivisible ▪ therefore the soul of man cannot be god , either in whole or in part . . the words being spoken after the manner of men : that is to say as the breath of man , is not man in whole or in part , but only from him ; so the soul being breathed , is only from god by infusion . . the soul of man was made after gods image , gen. . . and god said , let [ us ] make man in our ( sc . the father , through the son , by the spirit ) image , after our likeness , i. e. in our image , most like to ( not the same with ) us . it is an hebraisme , noting a superlative image , most like the trinity in vnity . this image or likeness stands in representing god three wayes . . it is a made image . . it is a true image . . it is very near and likely image , which appears not only in the spiritual and immortal nature of it , but in rectitude of mind , will , affections , members , all pure and righteous , conformed to gods will , eph. . . which evidently proves , that the soul cannot be god the creator , it being made as above , it must be a creature , and consequently a created substance , and therefore not ( after a quakers gross and absurd manner of speaking ) god in whole , or in part . again , when god breathed into adams liveless body , he breathed not himself ▪ because he was there before : for , god is in every thing excluded out of nothing , as before evidenced ; whence , it undeniably follows , that into adam's liveless body , god breathed not himself , but mans reasonable soul , which is mans proper form , and without it , man is not a man : so much for the first scripture . the second scripture , eccles . . . then shall the dust return to the earth , as it was , and the spirit shall return to god who gave it : herehence , they argue , the soul of man is god in part , for god is a spirit . reply , . though god be a spirit , yet every spirit is not god , an angel is a spirit , heb. . , but not god ; so , though the soul be a spirit yet it is a made spirit , as afore observed ; likewise hereunto agrees , isai . . . for the spirit should fail before me , and the souls which i have made : souls are of gods making , and therefore a created ( not uncreated ) substance ; besides , to say , that god is a spirit , and the soul of man is a spirit , therefore the soul is part of gods essence , is not only false but a most silly inference : for there is multiplicity of sign●fication in words , and here lies the fallacy : spirit , sometimes signifie god , joh. . . and sometimes the wind , ionah . . now , it s no good inference thence , therefore god and the wind are the same : howbeit , here is some of a quakers divinity . . the scope and import of the text it self above , excludes this their interpretation : for. . when it s said , the spirit shall return , it notes , a passing from one place to another , which cannot be said of the essence of god : for that being infinite , filleth all places at once . . to god that gave it : now according to the rules of right reason , the giver and the gift are distinct . ▪ when the dust ( the body ) returns to the earth , then the spirit ( the soul ) shall return to god : that is , to gods only and alone disposing , either to weal or to woe , for eternity , according to what it hath done in the body , whether it be good or evil , cor. . in this sense it is that the soul returns to god ; which truth , the scripture points us unto ▪ as with the finger ; in the examples of dives and lazarus ( luk. . and therefore to affirm , the soul returns to god , as a part of god , is absurd and sinful with a witness : for it renders god defective , till the soul returns , making him a finite , not an infinite god. the third scripture , act. . , . though he be not far from every one of us ▪ for in him we live , and move and have our being . reply ▪ i have already and fully granted , that the essential presence of god , is in heaven and earth , and all created natures : yet i do herewithal say , though all created natures are in his , and his in theirs : but yet his uncreated nature , and their created natures are ever distinct and different ; theirs finite and bounded , his infinite and boundless , not included in , nor excluded out of any thing ; for god is infinitely beyond their beings , lives , and motions , where never any created nature was , nor ever shall be , otherwise he is not god infinite : furthermore the very text of scripture above alledged , confutes their inference , for it expresly saith , god is near to everyone of us , and gives this reason for it ; because in him , we live , move , and have our being : so then this very expression , sc . that god is but near to us , plainly shews , that he is not us , nor we him . the fourth scripture , pet. . . whereby are given unto us , exceeding great and precious promises ; that by these , you might be partakers of the divine nature : whence the teaching quaker doth conclude , that the infinite and indivisible godhead , is divided into parts : thus senseless are they of the grossest absurdities . reply , . this place of scripture , doth only signifie , that the participation of the divine nature , is by a reception of the promised multiplication of grace and pe●ce , ver . . so that the text asserts no more but this ; namely , that they partake of the divine nature , who are partakers of the grace and peace promised : these being divine qualities , are of a divine nature , called the communion of the holy ghost , cor. . . if this be the genuine and proper sense of the text ; how far is it from proving the soul of man to be part of god ; to clear this matter yet a little more , consider , . the divine nature may be taken in a twofold sense ; as . for the essential nature of god , which is , rom. . . his eternal power and god head : in this sense , the divine nature is infinite and indivisible ; and as such , no man can partake of it . . the divine nature , may be taken , for the gifts , graces , and comforts of spirit , flowing from christ man ( in whom they are without measure , ioh. . ) being daily given from him to his members : now , it is in this last sense , that the apostle peter speaks of the divine nature above ; and therefore not to be understood in a quakers sense , for the deity or godhead , this twofold signification of the divine nature , being hid from the lost ones ; causeth them to call the soul ( still the idol-light ) the deity in part , no created substance : not discer●●ng●h bid●ous blasphemies which attends this their principle ; for if the soul of man be god in part , then the essence of god would be subject to change an● passion ; yea , which is worse , to sin , ( for so the soul of man is in this 〈◊〉 ) th●se blasphemi●s are the unavoidable consequences , of the souls being god in p●rt : i pass this , and proceed to the second part of the principle , to wit , a quakers infallibility . reply , to the second part : a quakers infallible spirit within him ▪ their spirit of infallibility , or infallible spirit , is grounded upon the souls being god in part ; but this hath been proved to be erroneous and highly blasphemous : the other is therefore of the same nature , ( chips of the same block ) yea , this their principle of in●allibility shews us , the rise and original of their religion ; i have long bought their infallible light within ▪ to be no other then the pope without : we may not think it s for nought that there are so m●ny exact resemblances between the idol light , and the idolatr●us pope : i shall give you some instances , . the pope takes upon him the power of pardoning sin ▪ making himself god and christ : which power of pardoning sin , the quaker ascribes to his light within , calling it god and christ . . the pope affirms , that the teachings , and rules of direction ▪ being believed in , and walked up unto , will make such believers and walkers perfect , and bring them to j●stification and salvation , all which the quaker doth affirm of the light within , it being believed in and obeyed . . the pope teacheth that his written scriptures are so far to be obeyed , as they do agree with the infallible spirit within him , just so , the quakers teach , that they are no further bound to obey the letter of the scriptures , then the infallible , un●rring light within , makes them willing to obey . . the pope declares his apocryphals to be not only of equal verity with , but to exceed the scriptures : even so , a quakers light within teacheth him to prefer his apocryphal quakerisms , before the written scriptures . . the pope testifies , there is a nigher doctrine ( than the scripture hath ) to feed the saints and perfect●ones ( meaning , his church enlightning traditions , ) so saith the quakers light within , that it hath a higher doctrine , then the written scripture hath any , to guid and ●eed the true saints . . the pope robs christ of all his offices . . of his kingly office , in taking part of it to himself , by remitting sins , and making laws to bind conscience , both which a quakers light presumes to do ▪ remitting sin , and binding conscience by its laws . . the pope robs christ of his priestly office , for he doth dispose of it , giving to a masse priest power to offer a daily propit●ation-sacrifice : yea , that every papist hath a piece of it within him , that thereby every one of them may satisfie the justice of god for his sins , even by his own merits within him : and for christs mediatorship , as some of them do abolish it , so no catholick desires the man jesus christ to pray for him , because each one of them hath so much of the propitiat●ry sacrifice dayly i● them , as is meritorious to satisfie the justice of god for their sins . of which robbery ( in reference to christs priestly office ) the quakers are equally guilty : for , they give to their light ( that masse-priest ) with in a power to offer sacrifice propitiatory dayly forsin ; whereby they daily ( in themselves ) satisfie gods justice for their sins , even by their own internal merits ; and as for christs mediatorship , they have quite abolished it : for no quaker desires the one mediator , the man jesus christ , tim. . to pray for him . . the pope robs christ also of his prophetical office : for this office , he assumes to himself : who ( without the scriptures ) determines infallibly ( by the pretened assistance of a spirit of infallible light , lockt up in his own breast ) all points of faith and life : which kind of robbery ( as to crists prophetical office ) the quakers have likewise assumed , who by their light within ( without the holy scriptures , or laws of the king thence derived ) pretend to an infallible determination of all points concerning ●aith and life : here hence , we may sa●ely infer , that a quakers lig●t , and romes pope are co●qual antichrists . this may further appear ; if the terms and title heretofore given to the p●p● ( as ●sserted 〈◊〉 the reverend brightman , ren. . page , ▪ ) ●e compared with those now given to the light within , by g. fox in his fo●o book , the great mystery , &c. the terms and titles which were given to the pope ( and imprinted by brightman as above ) are these : to wit , . hear ( saith brightman ) what barnard saith , ( sc . of the pope ) thou art a great priest , the prince of bishops , thou art the heir of the apostles , thou art abel for thy primacy . noah for thy government , abraham for thy patria●●h●ship ▪ melchisedech for thy order , aaron for thy dignity , moses for thy authority samuel for thy judgement , peter for thy power , christ for thine anointing , &c. ( book . consid . ) again , mark ( saith brightman ) how the embassadors of the empour of sicily cry out to him ( the pope ) lying groveling on the ground : o thou that takest away the sins of the world , have mercy upon us ; thou that takest away the sins of the world , grant us peace . as also , what simon beginus saith , speaking unto pope leo , in the council of laterane , sess . behold the lion of the tribe of judah , the ●oot of david : we have waited for thee ( o most blessed leo ) to be our saviour : vn●o these ( saith b●ightma● ) we may joyn cornelius the bishop of bipentum , who laid open his blockishness , in wondring at the beast , in the council of trent : with these words , the pope is come a light into the world , and men have loved darkness more then light , every one that evil doth , hateth the light , and cometh not to the light : hence brightman inferr● ; o , out upon you , ye blasphemous claw-backs , is it not enough for you to adorn the man of sin , with the praises of the saint , unless ye do also heap upon him , the praises which ye have robbed christ of : it would indeed render me too volumenous to set down herein all the pages , lines , and words , imprinted in the foxes book above named , concerning the terms●nd ●nd titles given by him ( and other such se●ucing authors ) to the light within ; which are either nume●ically or specifically the same , with the collections above given to the popes : or if there be any difference ( as to terms and titles of blasphemy ) the f●z's are the more horrid , upon the whole , let any good christian judge , whether a quakers light within ▪ be not ( in go●d earnest ) the p●pe without . and so i pass to the fourth and last principle a●ore-named . the fourth principle , to wit , a quakers denying of the trinity , or three persons in one deity . reply , it is by most judicious christians acknowledged : sc . that three persons in one deity is so great a mystery , that it cannot be sound our by natural reason , and no wonder for there are many things in natu●e ▪ yea , in man himself , eccles . . . thou knowest not the way of the spirit , nor how the bones do grow in the womb of hen that is with child , reason cannot reach the knowledge of this : therefore ( saith mr. caril ) it is not to be admired , if man be at a loss about the incomprehensible nature of god , howbeit , it may be to all rational saints ) sufficient to prove three persons in the godhead , ( though we cannot fully conceive how this should be : ) for ▪ . there is , but one god , cor. . , . . in this one god , there are three [ he 's ] that do vnderstand , will , and act , and these three are so doistinguished , that the one is not the other : and 't is dr. gouges observation on deut. . . hear o israel , the lord our god , is one lord ; the word [ lord ] is twice in the text , and ( saith he ) printed in capital letters , purposely to notifie , that the word [ lord ] in the original , is jehovah , and so he reads it hear o israel , jehovah our elohims , is one jehovah : here is trinity in vnity . and we read that the prophet , isai . . . heard the voice of the lord , saying , who will go for [ vs , ] this [ vs ] denotes more persons , then one : likewise in gen. . . the elohims spake each to other , and said , let ( us ) make man : surely then , the trinity cannot be as some dream , sc . distinctions and relations only : but reall existences in the essence of jehovah : for distinctions and relations are such as cannot speak : but the elohims spake each to other , as above noted . obj. if it be said , the plural number [ vs . ] takes in all , as well as the number three ? answ . it doth so ; but when god hath determined plurality to three , it is time then to settle , and to be certain , that there are no more , which is confirmed , mat. . . baptizing in the name of the father , and of the son , and of the holy ghost : that is , to believe in , obey and worship the father , in the son , and the holy ghost : here you see , are three in the divine nature , that do live understand , will and act ; and here , it s plainly revealed , that they are so distinct , that the one cannot be the other . indeed the socinians ( the quakers brethren in this thing ) do deny the holy ghost to be a person ; and say , it is the power , vertue , and efficacy of god the father : if so then the scripture above , mat. . . must be read thus , baptizing them in ( or unto ) the name of the father , of the son ; and of the vertue , power , and efficacy of the father ( to be believed in , obeyed and worshipped ) which sounds absurdly , utterly disagreeable to reason : but above all , it is inconsistent with the scriptures of truth , as in ioh. . . and the word was made flesh , and dwelt among us , and we beheld his glory , as the glory of the only begotten of the father : and in ver . . no man hath seen god at any time , but the only begotten son , which is in the bosome of the father , he hath declared him : and in iohn . but the comforter , which is the holy ghost , whom the father will send in my name : these texts of holy scripture do shew us , that the father begets the son , the son is begotten of the father , and the holy ghost proceeds from both ? furthermore , when the lord christ was baptized , mat. ● . , , . the father was heard and not seen , the holy ghost ( in the form of a dove ) seen and not heard : and christ the son both seen and heard : the father , saying of christ , this is my son ; and the holy ghost descending and lighting upon him , which is a most clear demonstration of their real and personal dictinction . again , in joh. . . for there are three that bear record in heaven , the father , the word , and the holy ghost , and these three are one : now if they be three , then they must be ( in some respect ) more then one , and not the same ; besides it argues weakness to quarrel the phrase [ persons , ] for as much as the [ person ] doth grammatically ( tria necessaria sunt , ut aliquid persona dicatur ) signifie , first , second and third , which makes three , this only by the bye , for illustration rather then evidence : though we do not find this phrasiology in the scriptures , sc . trinity of persons : yet this is not a sufficient ground to deny it ; for though we have not the words , yet having the things signified , in and by the words , it ought to satisfie a rational saint : as for the things signified , the texts above , are fair and plain : affirming there are three that bear record ( or witness ) now to bear witness , is properly the office and act of a person , or persons . qu. whether the father , the son , and the holy ghost , are declared as three distinct witnesses ? answ . yes , that they are so may appear by the testimony of these scriptures , joh. . i am one that bear witness of my self , and the father sent me beareth witness of me , and joh. . . but when the comforter is come , whom i will send unto you from the futher , even the spirit of truth , which proceedeth from the father , he shall testifie of me : here , we have the father , son , and holy ghost , witnessing ; that is to say , the comforter sent , the son sending , and that from the father , which proves them to be distinct witnesses , and by good consequence to be distinct persons : herewithal , let it be well observed , sc . to deny ( as teaching quakers do ) the trinity of persons , in the unity of the godhead ; is , in down right terms , to deny that there is a god ; for the scripture inspired of god saith , these three are one , therefore to deny the trinity , is to deny in unity ; which is atheistical : so much in answer to the requests o● some of the lords people in barmudas . with whom , i shall now ( in a few words ) leave my hearty well wishing advice : beseeching them ( and all the rest of the lords people there ) to be ever mindful of the blessed apostles resolution , act. . . i am ready to die for the name of the lord jesus christ ; a most gracious ( as well as noble ) resolution , and fit for every good christians imitation . which is indeed , 〈◊〉 l●ss then the standing against the gates of hell , by bearing witness to the holy truth of god : o let us rather burn , then ●ow to that idol light , which the romish nebuchad●zzar ha●h set up in teaching quakers : oh , let us rather die for the name of jesus christ of nazareth , then leave the mark of the beast , citeer within or on us ▪ rather let us lose our heads from our shoulders , then renounce that saving head , who is ascended up into the heavens above : o let us rather effuse our dearest blood , and die glorious martyrs , then live apostates from , and die persecutors of jesus of nazareth : and for your constant incouragement herein , let us heartily learn the apostles inspired lesson . rom. . , . in all these , we are more then conquerers , through him that loved us . finis . the last proceedings of the parliament in scotland, against the marquesse of argyle. together, with the speech and defence of the said marquesse, in vindication of himself from the aspersions of his having a hand in the deaths of his late majesty, james duke hamilton, marquesse huntley, marquesse of montross. and of his dealing with the english after worcester fight. scotland. parliament. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing s thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) the last proceedings of the parliament in scotland, against the marquesse of argyle. together, with the speech and defence of the said marquesse, in vindication of himself from the aspersions of his having a hand in the deaths of his late majesty, james duke hamilton, marquesse huntley, marquesse of montross. and of his dealing with the english after worcester fight. scotland. parliament. argyll, archibald campbell, marquis of, - . [ ], p. printed by t.m. for t.j., london : . the words "his late majesty, .. montross." are bracketed together on title page. annotation on thomason copy: "march ". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng argyll, archibald campbell, -- marquis of, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . trials (treason) -- scotland -- early works to . scotland -- history -- - -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the last proceedings of the parliament in scotland , against the marquesse of argyle . together , with the speech and defence of the said marquesse , in vindication of himself from the aspersions of his having a hand in the deaths of his late majesty , james duke hamilton , marquesse huntley , marquesse of montross . and of his dealing with the english after worcester fight . london , printed by t. m. for t. j. . at the parliament house in edenburgh , march . . the parliament being all convened , the marquess of argyle , being accused with high treason , at the instance of sir j. fletcher , his majesties advocate , for his interest was brought to the bar ; his lordship desired to speak but a few words before reading the inditement , assuring to speak nothing in the cause it self . whereupon his lordship was removed a little ; and after some small debate , the house resolved , that the inditement should be first read : then his lordship desired that a bill ( which he had caused his advocates give in to the lords of the articles ; desiring a precognition ; with many reasons , urging the necessity of it ; to which he had received no answer ) might be read before the inditement ; which being likewise refused , the inditement was immediately read ; after reading thereof , the marquess being put off his first thoughts , made this extemporarie discourse following . may it please your grace , &c. my lord chancellor , before i speak any thing , i shall humble protest my words may not be wrested , but that i may have charity to be believed ; and i shall ( with gods assistance ) speak truth from a heart . i shall ( my lord ) resume mephibosheths answer to david , after a great rebellion , and himself evil reported of . sayeth he , a yea let him take all , since my lord the king is come again in peace to his own house . so say i , since it hath pleased god almighty , gratiously to return his sacred majesty , to the royal excercise of his government over these nations ( to which he hath indoubted right ) and most unjustly , and violently , thrust therefrom , by the late tyrannizing usurpers . it is ( my lord ) exceeding matter of joy to us all , that , that iron yoak of usurpation ( under which we have these many years , sadly groaned ) is now broke : and with such freedome , this high , and honourable court of parliament are meeting together , under the refreshing warm beams of his majesties royal government , so much longed for , by our almost starved expectations ; and i do earnestly wish his royal presence upon his throne amongst us ; but since at this time , that great happiness cannot be probably expected ; i am glad , that his majesties prudency hath singled out such a qualified , and worthy person as my lord commissioners grace , to represent himself : whose unspotted loyalty to his majesty , we can all witnesse . i cannot ( my lords ) but acknowledge , that there are two grand mercies , which comfortably attend my present condition . one is the high thoughts i deservedly entertain , of that transcendent , and princely clemency , wherewith his sacred majestie is so admirably delighted , abundantly evindenced by many noted and singular testimonies , in all the steps of his majesties carriage ; as those most gratious letters , declarations , and that free , and most ample act of indempnitie , &c. granted to all his majesties subjects , to eradicate any time●ous jealousie of his majesties gratious pardon ; which might happily arise , by serous reflectings , convincing them forcibly of their own miscarriages , in these most unhapy times of distraction , the effects ( my lords ) of which princely deportment , i am confidently hopeful , his majestie hath already experimentally , and shall futurely find , prove an effectual cement , to conciliate the most antimonarchich , and disaffected persons ( excepting some ) those barbarous phanaticks ) in all his majesties dominions ) most willingly to the subjection of his majesties royal scepter ; and with a perfect hatred * abominate all disloyal practises in themselves , or others in all times coming . the second is , my lords , when i consider , that my judges are not such as we had of late ( strangers ) but my own country men ; both which joyntly together with the royal sence , and solid convictions i had of my innocency , of these calumnies most unjustly charged upon me ) encourages my hopes rather , to expect such dealing , as will most sympathize with that clement humour , ( to which his sacred majesty hath such a natural propensitie ) and such equal administrate justice , ( void of all byassing prejudices ) as will be most sutable for such a high , and honourable meeting . i shall therefore ( my lord ) desire to use pauls answer for himself , being accused of his countrymen , ( i desire not to be mistaken ) having a learned orator ( tertullius ) accusing him , as i have my lord advocate : pauls was heresie , mine of another nature ; but i must say with him , * that the things they all laid against me , cannot be proved . but this i confesse , in the way allowed , by solemn oaths , and covenants , i have served god , my king , and my countrie , ( as he said ) which they themselves allow . therefore i shall ( my lord ) remember ( not with repining , but for information ) my hard usage , never having had any hearing , nor allowance of pen , ink , or paper , until i received this summons ; which was ( in effect ) a load , above a burden ; enemies ( both scots and english ) out of malice , calumniating me for all the same things , excepting what relates to his majesties most royall father of ever glorious memory . therefore , ( my lord , ) i beg charity and patient hearing , not doubting , but the wisdom and goodness of the parliament will be so favourable , and not as the inconsiderate multitude ( as a learned able man writes ) sayes he a as we see in experience , that dogs they alwayes bark at those they know not : and that it is their nature to accompany one another in those clamours ; so it is with the inconsiderate multitude , who wanting that vertue which we call honesty in all men , and that speciall gift of god , which we call charity in christian men ; condemn without hearing , and wound without offence given ; led thereunto by uncertain report only , which his majesty king james only acknowledgeth to be the father of lies . i shall not desire to be in the least mistaken by any that hear me : but sure i am , it is pertinently applicable to my case . i intreat likewise your lordships seriously to consider the words of another notable man , c who sayes ( d ) as the tongues of parasites are ill ballances to weigh the vertues of princes , & great men ; so neither ought theirs nor other mens blemishes be looked upon , as they are drawn with the deformed pencill of envy , or canker , which do alwayes attend eminency , whether in place or virtue . i shall not ( my lord ) be so presumptuous , as to arrogate any thing to my self in this , only i want not the two companions ; for i am but a weak man , subject to many failings and infirmities , whereof i do not purge my self ; for as we must all confesse to god almighty , * if he should mark iniquities , who can stand ? neither shall i say , that there cannot an hole be discovered ( as the proverb is ) in my coat : and it cannot but be so with any , specially such as have laboured in such times and businesses ; but i blesse the lord , that in these things which hath been , and are here cast upon me , i am able to make the falshood , and misconstructions of them palpably appear . my lord , ( before i mention any thing in particular ) i must shew this honourable meeting of parliament , & all that hear me ( who doubtless have various apprehensions of my being present in this condition , ) that i am here rather upon the account of misfortune than injury , wherein i desire to explain the differences , as plato and aristotle do very well , calling injuries , such things as are done purposely , and with a wicked mind ; and misfortunes , such things as are done with a good mind , though the events prove bad ; yet , we could not foresee them . so ( my lord , ) i shall take god to record ( who must judge me one day , ) upon my conscience , that what i did , flowed not from any injurious pinciples to any , though i acknowledge , the events were not still successefull , which was my misfortune indeed : but it has been my lot often , in these times , ( wherein i , and many others , were inevitably involved by the malicious tongues of my calumniating enemies , to be misconstrued for the worst ; yea , even in many which the lord was pleased to make successefull : for the truth of this , i may ( i hope ) safely appeal to many in this honourable house , who can abundantly witnesse my faithfull , and loyall endeavours for both my king , and native country , whereof i should be very sparing to be a herald my self , were not the contrary so impudently affirmed . there are five main calumnies , that i desire ( my lord ) to satisfie all that hear me a little in , to the end , that the rest of less moment , may be likewise ( in its own due time ) heard afterward , abstracting more from personal prejudice . the first calumny is , my lord , concerning that horrid and unparaleld murder of his late royal majesty , of eternall blessed memory : i do here publickly declare , that i neither desire , nor deserve the least countenance , or favour , if i was either accessary to it , or on the councell , or knowledge of it : which to make clearly appear , is under oath in the parliament books . ( whereof i was the first startour my self ) to the intent , we might both vindicate our selves , and endeavour a discovery , if any amongst us had any accession to that horrid and villanous crime ; as also in my latter will , which i made ; going to england , in anno . or . fearing what possibly might hereafter be obtruded by any upon me or my family upon that account , i set it down , to clear me to posterity , that i was altogether free of that detestable and execrable crime , or of any prejudice at his majesty , in either person or government . i left this with a very worthy gentleman , ( i believe ) well known to your lordships all , and never saw it since ; so your lordships may be pleased ( if ye will ) to call for it , and try the truth ; whatsoever other thing may be in it , i hope ( my lord ) this opportunity is a mercy to me , to have that vile calumny ( among many others ) against me to be cleared . and ( my lord ) to make this particular yet more evident , i did still , and do positively assert , that i never saw that monstruous usurper , oliver cromwell in the face , nor never had the least correspondence with him , or any of that sectarian army , untill the commands of the committee of estates sent me with some other noble men , and gentlemen , to the borders , in anno , . to stop his march into scotland , after those who returned from preston fight . neither , after he left the borders in the year . did i ever correspond with him , or any of that sectarian army ; so unsatisfied was i with their way , after the wicked and sinistrous courses he and they were upon , afforded evident presumptions for us to apprehend , that he , and they , intended prejudice to his royall majesty : onely one letter i received from sir arthur haslerig ; to which i returned answer , that he might have spared his pains in writing to me : for i blessed the lord , who had taught me , by his word , to fear god , and honour the king , and not to meddle with them that were gi●en to change. though sir arthur be now dead , yet he acknowledged to severall in the tower , that my letter he still had : and when i was there , i often desired he might be posed , and examined upon it ; which i can presently instruct . and during ( my lord ) my being in england , neither at london , nor newcastle , in anno . there was not any thing so much as mentioned , concerning his late majesties person : all that ever i heard of it , was in publick parliament . the commissioners papers at london , and committee-books at newcastle , will clear this fully . the second calumny is , anent the inhumane murther of duke james hamilton . my lord , it s well known , my great respect to that truly noble , and worthy person ; whereof ( upon all occasions ) i gave ample testimonies , and can yet convince any of his friends with the reality of it ; and evidenced my true sorrow , for the wicked cruelty commited on him . but indeed , i cannot deny , i refused to complement cromwell on his behalf ; he having ( my lord ) been immediately proceeding so instrumental , and so very active in that most horrid , and lamentable murder of his late sacred majesty . and if i had done otherwayes , undoubtedly , it had been a more black article in that lybil now read , then any that 's in it . the third calumny is , that which breeds a great part of these groundless clamours , ( though it be not in the inditement ) i● my lord marquess of huntly his death , wherein ( i may truly say ) i was earnest to preserve him , as possible i could , which is very well known to many in this honourable house . and my not prevailing , may sufficiently evidence , i had not so great a stroak , nor power in the parliament , as is lybelled . and my lord , for his estate , i had nothing in that , but for my own absolute necessary releif : and was even most willing to part with any interest i had therein ; getting his friends ( who professed zeal , for the standing of the familie ) engaged for warrandise to me , for any proportion that should happen to fall for my satisfaction . and to evidence that i was no means to harm the familie , i stood with my right , betwixt all fines , and forfeitures of lands , and accompted for any thing i did receive : and to manifest yet further , that the burden of that family , was not from any extrinsick cause to themselves ; i have under the old marquesses own hand , and his son george lord gordoun , ( who was a very worthy young nobleman ) the just inventory of their debts , amounting to about one million of mark scots , in anno . it would i fear , ( my lord , consume too much of the parliaments pretious time ) to hear many other circumstances to make this particular more clear : which i shall at this time forbear . the fourth calumny is , the death of the marquess of montrose . there are many in this house ( my lord ) who know very well , i refused to meddle either in the matter , or manner of it ; and so far were we from having any particular quarrells at one another , that in anno . he and i was fully agreed upon articles , and conditions , contained in a treaty past betwixt us ; and it was neither his fault , nor mine , that business did not end at that time ; which ( its known to all ) proved very obnoxious to the kingdom thereafter . the fifth calumny is , concerning my dealing with the english after worceter fight : it s well known ( my lord ) to many , that my self , and the gentlemen of argyle-shire ( my kinsmen , vassalls , and tennants ) endeavoured cordially , to engage all their neighbours about them , on all hands against the english , which they did not prevail in ; but was most unhappily made known to the english commanders , for the time , ( which they caused immediately to publish ( as a very notable discory ) in their newes books ) which occasioned two sad disadvantages to us ; for they not only crushed our attempts in the infantry , but also determined the severer resolutions against us ; whereby two strong regiments of foot ( overtons and reads ) and very neer the number of one of horse , ( under the command of one blackmore ) were sent to argyle-shire , and when dean came there , it pleased god to visit me with a great distemper of sicknesse , as dr. cunningham , and many others who were with me can witness . what ( my lord ) i was pressed unto , when i was violently in their hands , may be instructed by the paper it self , written by deanes mans own hand , yet extant to show , which i did absolutely refuse , upon all the hazard of the uttermost of their malice ; as also what i was necessitated to do , is likewise ready to be shown , whereby i was still detained their prisoner upon demand . i shall ( my lord ) add one reason more to clear this , besides many other weighty publick reasons and considerations ( which i shall forbear to mention at this time , it being more naturall to bring them by way of defences afterwards ) my own interest , and of all noblemen , and superiours in scotland ; it may be rationally presumed , that i had been a very senseless fool , if ever i had been for promoting such and such authoritie , or interest over me , as levelled all , and was so totally destructive to all that differenced my self , and other noble-men , from their own vassals ( which many sayes they were too earnest in ) yea , it being likewise so absurdly derogatory to all true nobilitie , and my ancestors and i ( as is said in that lybell ) have had so many titles of honour , dignitie , and eminent places of trust conferred upon us , by his majesties royal predecessors and himself , all for our constant loyalty and adherence to the crown , at all occasions , ( as the records and histories of this ancient kingdom holds forth , besides the narrative of all our grants ) and asserting the just priviledges thereof against opposers . i did ( my lord ) ever ( even when the englishs were at the intollerable height of usurpation ) declare my abhorrence to a common-wealth government , which was well known to them all . i was not indeed ( my lord very dissatified , when there were rumors current , of cromwells being made a king ( as some here can witness . ) for i told them , it was the most probable way for his majesties advantage ; therefore the less it were opposed ; and the more it were encouraged , it would tend to cromwells , and their deformed common-wealths governments ruine ; and promote his majesties just interest the more . my lord , i shall not much blame my lord advocate for doing his endeavour , ( it being in essentiall part of his function to accuse ) but i must say , that its very hard measure , that so able a man hath neer as many moneths , in taking paines to promp as many enemies as his perswasions could possibly invite , to bend upon the highest notes of their malice , and laying out search by them for , and collecting all the bad reports , or rather ( to give them their genuine term ) i may call them a confused mass of the common classis of the countrie ; thereby to devise misconstructions of all the publick actings of both parliaments or committees , during the late troubles , and with strange and remote inferences , and to adduce all those to the channell of my particular actings , as many i say ( my lord ) moneths , as i have dayes to answer them , ( being an exceeding disadvantage . ) but ( my lord ) that 's not all , i am likewise extreamly gauled , that he labours in that libell all along , to draw an obscure vail of perpetuall oblivion over all my good services , and specially my faithfull , and royall endeavours , in restoring his sacred majesty to the crown of his this most ancient kingdom of scotland , and the excercise of his majesties royall authority therein ; with my cordiall endeavours for his majesties restitution to the rest of his dominions also , which his majesty both knows , and has been pleased often to acknowledge it to have been good service : and yea , many present in this honourable house knows , that i extended both my zeal and affection to the uttermost of my power , for his majesties service in that particular : which i willingly acknowledge nothing ( my lord ) but my duty , whereunto i was tied , both by natural , civil , and christian bonds to my soveraign ; and especially such a deserving king , of whom i may now ( as i have often ) affirme , that he is a king , in whom the lord has taken such pleasure , as to possesse his majesty with so many superlative degrees of excellency , that any of his princely perfections may be a characteristick distinction sufficient to exalt his majesties fame , both in our age , and to the subsequent posterity , above all the monarchs in the world. so ( my lord ) we may consequently discover a high demonstration of the lords singular kindness , and speciall providentiall care for us his majesties subjects , in preserving such a rich blessing as his sacred majesty ; ( in whom the happiness of these nations is wrapped up ) under the safe wings of his divine protection , i may say , even when the extravagant malice of men would have swallowed him up . after his lordship had ended this discourse ( being heard very attentively by all without any interruption ) my lords advocate sayes to my lord chancellor thus , my lord chancellour , but what can the marquess of argyle say to the opposition at striveling in anno , ? the marquess replyed , that he found my lord advocate endeavoured to bring him to debate the particulars , which he hoped should be cleared at a more convenient time , and waved it , answering nothing to the thing it self , but insisted thus : ( my lord chancellour ) i have informativè only hinted at the main things , which i am often charged with , my memory cannot fully reach all , neither will time permit to circumstantiate these particulars , which i have onely touched in the generall ; nor is my purpose at present , to fall on the debate of that libell , not having , as yet unfolded the processe . by reason those advocates your lordships was pleased to allow me , have not yet all embraced , and the excuses of my ordinary advocates ( in whom i had confidence ) being admitted as relievant : and this gentleman that hath been pleased ( in obedience to your lordships commands ) to come here with me , not being much acquainted with matters of this weight , and not having embraced till within these two or three dayes , so that they are strangers altogether to my case . i shall therefore ( my lord ) humbly desire , that a competent time may be allowed me , that i may prepare my defences , and i shall ( god willing ) abundantly clear every particular in the libell . and also ( my lord ) i humbly desire , that those other advocates , who were ordained by your lordships to assist me ; after the honourable lords of the articles rejected their excuses , they may be now ordained by your lordships , to consult and appear for me . the marquesse his advocates entred a protestation , that what should happen to escape them in pleading ( either by word or write ) for the life , honour and estate of the said noble marquesse their client , might not thereafter be obtruded to them as treasonable ; whereupon they took instruments . the marquesse assured my lord chancellour , that he knew not of any such protestation to be presented , and that it flowed simply of themselves , and not of him . whereupon my lord chancellour desired the marquess and his advocates , to remove till the house should consider of both ; my lord marquesses desire , and the advocates protestation . the marquesse and his advocates being removed , the house ( after some small debates ) resolved , as to my lord marquesses desire , his lordship should have till the of march to give in his defenses in write , and ordained mr. andrew ker to be one of his advocates . as to the advocates protestation , the house resolved , that they could not be allowed to speak any treason , either by word or write , but upon their perill : only allowed them , in the generall , as much as ever in such cases was indulged to any . the marquess and his advocates being called in , my lord chancellour intimates the foresaid resolutions of the house , both in reference to my lord marquesses desires , and to the advocates , in relation to their protestation . when my lord chancellour had done , the marquesse spake as followeth : my lord chancellour , there is one thing that had almost escaped me , anent that opposition at striveling . that my lord advocate was speaking of , that it may not stick with any of this honourable meeting , i shall ingenuously declare , that after the defeat at preston , i was desired to come , and meet with the committee of estates ( meaning those who were not in the then engagement ) i came with some of my friends to striveling , fearing no harm , nor suspecting nothing ; i was invaded by sir george monro , where several of my friends were killed , and my self hardly escaped ; which is all that can be said i acted in armes , which many here knowes to be most true . my lord , not that i am any wayes diffident , but i shall in due time clear every particular in that libell : yet i am not a little troubled , that some , who have heard the calumnies therein , may let them have such an impression ( being asserted with such confidence ) as to conceive a possibility , if not a probability of their being true . i shall therefore humbly desire so much charity from this honourable meeting , that there may be no hard thoughts entertained by any , till i be fully heard . the marquesse thereafter , with joint concurrence of his advocates , humbly desired , that his bill , containing many pungent reasons for a precognition of his business , given in to the honourable lords of the articles , may be considered in plain parliament . to which my lord chancellour replyed , that it had been formerly refused at the articles , and that it would not be granted . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e a * sam. . . * psal . . . * acts . , , . a sir walt. rauleighs preface to the hist . of the world. c speed in his history . * psal . . v. . an exact account of the procedings [sic] at the old-bayly this july the , with a true survey of the tryal of the lord russel, john rouse, william hone joyner, capt. william blage who were indicted for high treason in conspiring the kings death, and raising arms to subvert the goverment [sic] and alter the religeion [sic], and conpsreing [sic] the death of his royal brother james duke of york : the lord ruslel [sic], john rouse, william hone, and one captain thomas walcot, being all condem'd to be hang'd, drawn and quarter'd. russell, william, lord, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing e estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an exact account of the procedings [sic] at the old-bayly this july the , with a true survey of the tryal of the lord russel, john rouse, william hone joyner, capt. william blage who were indicted for high treason in conspiring the kings death, and raising arms to subvert the goverment [sic] and alter the religeion [sic], and conpsreing [sic] the death of his royal brother james duke of york : the lord ruslel [sic], john rouse, william hone, and one captain thomas walcot, being all condem'd to be hang'd, drawn and quarter'd. russell, william, lord, - . p. printed by e. mallet, london : . caption title. attributed to russell by nuc pre- imprints. imprint from colophon. reproduction of original in the huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (treason) -- england. treason. great britain -- history -- charles ii, - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - jonathan blaney sampled and proofread - jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an exact account of the procedings at the old-bayly this iuly the , with a true survey of the tryal of the lord russel william hone ioyner iohn rouse capt. william blage who were indicted for high treason in conspiring the , kings death , and raising arms to subvert the goverment and alter the religeion , and conpsreing the death of his royall brother iames duke of yorke . the lord ruslel , iohn , rouse , william hone , and one captain thomas walcot , being all condem'd to be hang'd drawn and quarter'd . william hone , who was yesterday arraigned being set to the bar , & the indictment read , desired that the plea which he tendred yesterday might be accepted , which was that he was guilty of conspireing the death of the king , but not guilty of providing arms , or a designe of raising a rebellion ; sr. george gefferyes said the confession was not directly to the indictment ; therefore they would proceed to give their evidence , he pleading not guilty as to the whole indictment , the jury was then sworn , being the same that passed the day before , between the king and capt. walcot , mr. west was first sworn , who witnessed that the d . of march , caroli secondi , at the parish of st. michael bishshaw in the ward of bishshaw in the city of london , with rumbold burton , ferguson , holliway , roe , francis goodenough , and richard goodenough , and other false traytors , he conspier'd the death of the king , and the duke of york , to subvert the government , and alter the religion both in church and state , and the prisoner was one of the persons to be employed in that wicked act. then leiling was sworn , who witnessed that he was several times with the prisoner and several others ; who consulted the death of the black-bird , and the gold-finch , meaning the king and the duke of york . ho●e acknowledged that he consulted the death of the 〈◊〉 - bird , 〈◊〉 not of the gold-finch . but what mr. vvest witnessed concerning his design of shooting the king with a cross-bow , out of bow-ste●●le on the lord mayors day , he denyed . he then asked mr. 〈◊〉 what he thought of him , who said he took him to be a very honest man , for which expression he was severely checkt . sir nicholas butler witnessed that hone confessed to him , that there was a design to shoot the king with a cross-bow out of bow-steeple and that h●ne was one of them ; captain richardson being sworn , witnessed that hone confessed he was hir'd by goodenough , with the promise or twenty pounds reward to kill the king , and that he was to have shot him with a cross-bow . hone confessed that he was drawn in by goodenough to kill the king. but as to the shooting him with a cross-bow , he said he was not concern'd in it ; but was only told that there was such a design by some trades-men that lived near b●● ste●●le , then the iury without going from the bar brought him in gu●●●y . then the lord russell was brought in his coach into the yard , being attended by the livetenant of the tower. being brought into court before the bar , the indictment was read , that with iames duke of monmouth , ford lord grey , sr. thomas armstrong , and robert ferguson , conspired the death of the king , the raising arms to subvert the goverment , to alter the religeon &c. he pleaded not guilty , and desired that the tryal may be put of for a longer time , but being told that the kings councel insisted on it now , the court could not put it it off . he then desired a coppy of the pannel of the iury ' which was told him was matter of favour but such as was never denyed , and that it was alwayes ready for him . and being duly examined , it appeared that he had a list of all the iuries that were returned five or six dayes since . then they proceeded to call the iury to be sworn . iohn martin , being called ' the lord russell , asked him if he had any free-hold in london , he answered no. then he challenged him , for that cause , and desired that council might be allowed him , which was grantd ; ( viz. ) mr. pollexfen ' mr. holt , and mr. ward ' who appearing : argued very streamously , that the statutes concerning tryalls in london , by such as are not free-holders extended not to crimin all causes , but in only civill . but it was answered by the attorney generall , and sr. george gefferys , and answered by the whole court , that satutes extend to both cases , and it was lately so resolved in the case of worcester . then the iury was sworn he challenging thirty two . mr. roger north opened the indictment sr. georg geffery casting the evidence collonal rumsey was sworn , witnessed that my lord shaftsbury told him , that the lord russel and several others were met in consult about an insurrection ; and that he should go to them to know what readiness they were in for it , who returned answer , that they were not yet ready , being failed of their expectations in the west-county , ( viz. ) at taunton , therefore they defer'd it untill the th . of november , queen elizabeths birth day . then the lord russel asked if he spoke any thing , or conscented to the answer , and collonal rumsey said yes . mr. shepherd sworn , witnessed that he being a vintner ferguson came to his house , and told him that the duke of monmouth , and the lord russel were coming to his house , which in a short time they did , privately in hackney coaches , and being come , desired to be very private , and that none be permitted to come into the room , all the servants being sent away , he himself waited on them . and that he heard them consulting about an insurrection , and to be the best of remembrance , there was a discourse of seizing the guards . the lord howard of escreek then was sworn , who made a very large speech , as to the plot , or conspiering in the general , that the lord shafesbury contrived it , and sent rumsey to the lord russel , and several others , to know what readdiness they were in , for an information , and what resolution they come to , relateing to taunton that their answer was , they were failed in the west , and that they had always told him they could not be ready at that time , but defer'd it untill the ● th of november , on which the lord shaftsbury grew very impatient , and told them he had ten thousand brave boys ready at any time for his service . but afterwards the lord russell , was afraid there was a discovery by reason of the proclamation and forbiding bou●ires . that some time after that the lord shaftsbury , went to holland duke of monmo●th , hamden sidney , essex . robert ferguson , lord russel , and he himself sat as a chosen council , to manage the insurrection design'd and that there was a paper contriv'd as a declaration for liberty , reckoning up all grievences pretended we then lay under , but they thought fit to stay till they could see what intrest they could make in scotland , and to that purpose engaged sr. hugh cambden , lord mervin , sr. ithn cockrom , and others , one of them ( viz. ) sr. iohn camden came to town , about the time of this discovery , and then conceal'd himself , and is now taken . sidney was sent by this council to view the guards , in what a posture they were in ; who acquainted them them that they were very easily attain'd . that they had mony ready to carry on their design , but expected more from holland . the lord russel confessed his being at the consult , when the message was sent to the lord shaftsbury , but come in late . he was at shephards tavern only to taste his wines , and was several times in the company , which they called the council , only for the sake of the lord howards good company , but knew of no treasonable consults . he then called the earle of anglesey ' and mr. howard and dr. burnet who wittnessed that the lord howard severall times after 〈◊〉 discovery of this plot , and before his being taken denyed any knowledg of this conspiracy . dr. tillotson & several others wittness●d that they alwayes took the lord russell for a man of a very good life and conversation . then the evidence being sum'd up by the soliceter generall , and sr. george geffereys and the lord chief iustice pemberton the iurey withdrew , and the court adjorned . after dinner the court sitting , the iury brought in their virdict guilty . iohn rouse was then set to the bar and a new jury sworn lee witnessed that he had serveral times been with the prisoner who said popery and slavery were coming in , and it was no sin to kill the king and the duke and that they would propose the runing , for a golden ball on black heath and when they were mert they would assault the tower and take it . mr. lee swear that rouse had severall times contrived the the death of the king and to raise an armie and he to be pay master of it . all which rouse denyed and sayed that lee proposed such things to him but he refused it corbin witnessed that in . rouse told him the king had forfuted his crown . mr. william richardson , swore that when he went to take rouse he diso●●●● his name , and said his name was iohnson . the evidence being sumd up 〈◊〉 iury without going out of court foud him guilty capt. bluge set to the bar , and the same iury sworne . lee swore that he conspier'd then to kill the king , raise armies , and seize the tower. lee swore that being in his company , they discoursed the tower may be taken , but whether it was only to shew his opinion barely , or design he knew not , therefore the lord chief justice pemberton left it to the iury , to consider if they had two evidences for high treason , they consulted a small time , and brought him in not guilty . so the court adjourned . london printed by f. mallet . an account of the tryal of charles bateman, chirurgeon, for high- treason, in conspiring the death of the late king and the subversion of the government &c. who was tryed and found guilty, at justice-hall in the old bayly, on the th of december, . the tryals of john holland and william davis, for conspiring against, violently assaulting, and without any warrantable cause, imprisoning william chancey ... who were tryed and found guilty ... on the th of december, . as also the tryals of john holland, william davis, and agnes wearing, for a notorious burglary and felony ... in the house of leonel gatford ... who were tryed and found guilty ... on the th of december, . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an account of the tryal of charles bateman, chirurgeon, for high- treason, in conspiring the death of the late king and the subversion of the government &c. who was tryed and found guilty, at justice-hall in the old bayly, on the th of december, . the tryals of john holland and william davis, for conspiring against, violently assaulting, and without any warrantable cause, imprisoning william chancey ... who were tryed and found guilty ... on the th of december, . as also the tryals of john holland, william davis, and agnes wearing, for a notorious burglary and felony ... in the house of leonel gatford ... who were tryed and found guilty ... on the th of december, . davis, william, d. , defendant. wearing, agnes, d. , defendant. holland, john, defendant. bateman, charles, d. . [ ], p. printed for d. mallet, london : mdclxxxv [ ] imperfect: print show-through. reproduction of original in: william andrews clark memorial library, university of california, los angeles. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bateman, charles, d. . trials (treason) -- england. trials (duress) -- england. trials (burglary) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - megan marion sampled and proofread - megan marion text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an account of the tryal of charles bateman , chirurgeon , for high-treason , in conspiring the death of the late king and the subversion of the government , &c. who was tryed and found guilty , at justice-hall in the old bayly , on the th . of december , . the tryals of john holland and william davis , for conspiring against , violently assaulting , and without any warrantable cause , imprisoning william chancey , citizen and mercer of london ; to extort a sum of money from him ; who were tryed and found guilty at justice-hall in the old-bayly , on the th . of december , . as also tryals of john holland , william davis , and agnes wearing , for a notorious burglary and felony , committed in the house of leonel gatford , a minister in lime-street , london , and stealing plate , money and rings , to the value of l. who were tryed and found guilty , at justice-hall in the old-bayly , on the th of december . . london , printed for d. mallet , mdclxxxv . the tryal of charles bateman chirurgeon , for high-treason : and john holland , william davis , and agnes wearing , for a notorious felony and burglary . the sessions of peace , oyer and terminer , and goal delivery of newgate , for the city of london and county of middlesex ; beginning at justice hall in the old bayly , on the th . of december , . charles bateman , against whom , an indictment of high-treason had been found , for conspiring the death of the late king , &c. was brought in the custody of the keeper of newgate in order to his arraignment ; and being ordered to hold up his hand , he desired that he might first say something for himself , in order to put off his tryal , but was told by mr. recorder , he must plead before he could be heard ; whereupon desiring to know whether he might have the same advantage after his pleading as before , as to gain longer time for his tryal , and being answered he might , he held up his hand , and then the indictment was read : mr. bateman pleaded not guilty , and desired his tryal might be put off , saying , he was not prepared to make his defence , and therefore prayed a longer time , saying , he had been close prisoner for the space of ten vveeks , and was over and above very much indisposed ; and further alledged , he had had no notice nor any pannel of the jury ; as for notice of tryal , he was answered , that it was not usual to give any in that court , but that he ought to have expected it , and prepared for it accordingly , and as for the pannel it was not denyed him ; then he prayed a coppy of the indictment , but was told it could not be allowed ; and upon his further alledging his unpreparedness and no notice of tryal , and the like , the king's council urged that he had opportunity enough to take notice of his tryal , for that it was upon an indictment of the precedent sessions : then he asked what time he might have between his arraignment and tryal , and was answered , as much as would stand with the conveniency of the court ; and after several hours respite , he a second time was brought to the bar , and then upon his humble request , pen , ink , and paper was allowed him and his son to assist him ; and then were sworn to try the issue , richard aley esq richard williams john cannum patrick barret john palmer james raynor . edward rhedish george lilburn . daniel fouls peter floyer lawrence cole john cooper . and he making no exceptions to them , then the indictment was read . the jurors , &c. that charles bateman , late of the parish of st. dunstans in the west , in the ward of farringdon without , lond. chirurgeon , as a false traytor , against the most illustrious and excellent prince , charles the second ; late king of england , scotland , france and ireland , defender of the faith , and his natural lord ; not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weighing the duty of his allegience ; but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , and true due and natural obedience , which a true and faithful subject of our late lord the king , towards him should , and of right , ought to bear , altogether withdrawing and practising , and with all his strength , intending the peace and common tranquillity of this kingdom , to disquiet , and disturb , and war and rebellion against our late lord the king , within this kingdom to flir up , move , and procure , and the government of our late lord the king , of this kingdom to subvert , and our said late lord the king , from the stile , title , honour , and kingly name , of the imperial crown of this kingdom , to depose and deprive , and our said late lord the king , to death and final destruction to bring and put , the th . day of may , in the th year of his reign , and divers other days and times , as well before as afterwards , at the parish and ward aforesaid , falsely , maliciously , devilishly , and traytorously , with divers other rebels and traytors to the jurors unkown , did conspire , compass , imagine , and intend our said late lord the king , then his supream and natural lord ; not only of his kingly state , title , power , and government of his kingdom of england , to deprive and depose , but also our said late lord the king , to kill , and to death , to bring and put , and the antient government of this kingdom , to change , alter , and subvert ; and a miserable slaughter amongst the subjects of our said late lord the king , to cause and procure , and insurrection and rebellion , against our said late lord the king , to procure , and assist , and the same most wicked , treasons and traytorous conspiracies , compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid to effect , and bring to pass . he the said charles bateman , as a false traytor , then and there , ( to wit ) the said th . day of may , in the th . year aforesaid , and divers other days and times , as well before as afterwards ; at the parish and ward aforesaid , falsely , vnlawfully , most wickedly , and traytorously , did promise and undertake to the said other false rebells and traytors then and there being present : that he the said charles bateman , would be assisting and aiding , in the taking and apprehending the person of our said late lord the king , and intaking and seizing the city of london , and the tower of london , the savoy , and the royal pallace of white-hall , against the duty of his allegience , against the peace , &c. and against the form of the statute , in this case made and provided , &c. mr. phips , council for the king opened the nature of it , and was seconded by mr , serjeant selby and mr. charles moloy , after which , mr. josias keeling was sworn , whose evidence was , that he had been at divers meetings and consults , where the methods had been proposed for the purposes aforesaid , and more particular one time with rumbold the maltster , since executed for high-treason , and that then , three papers were produced by rumbold and opened , containing the moddel of the design , to divide the city into twenty parts , and to raise five hundred men in each part , to be under one chief , and nine or ten subordinates whom he should appoint , the names of the lanes and streets of each division being likewise inserted therein ; and at that time rumbold proposed the business of the rye house , saying , he had a house very convenient to plant men in , to seize the king in his return from new-market , but that he somewhat boggled about the killing the postillion , which had been proposed the better to stop the coach , because it looked too much like an exploit in cold blood : he further deposed , that he had been at divers other places where it had been discoursed to the same effect , and that mr. bateman was looked upon as a person fixing to manage one division in order to an insurrection , to seize the tower , city , &c. this being the sum of mr. keeling's evidence ; mr. bateman said , that what he had sworn , did not affect or charge any treason upon him ; and was answered by the court that it did not , and bid the jury take notice , that what mr. keeling had sworn , was only to the conspiracie in general , and did not affect the prisoner in particular . then thomas lee was sworn , and gave evidence , that he being made acquainted with the design by mr. goodenough , &c. and how the city was to be divided into twenty parts and mannaged ; and being asked who was a fit man to mannage one part , he nominated mr. bateman , and thereupon was desired to go to him , and speak with him about it as from mr. goodenough ; and when he came to discourse him about that affair , he apprehended very plainly , that he was no stranger to it nor boggled to give his assent , and seemed much desirous to speak with mr. goodenough about it : that he likewise went one day to the late duke of monmouth's house with mr. bateman ; and mr. bateman , after he had had some discourse with one of the duke's servants , came to him and told him , the duke was willing to ingage in the business , and assur'd him , that he had divers horses kept in the country , to be in a readiness when matters should come to extremity ; and from thence he went with him to the king 's - head-tavern , and there had discourse to the same effect ; and from thence , they came to the devil-tavern within temple-bar , where mr. bateman proposed the seizing the city , tower , savoy , white-hall , and the person of the late king , and promised not to be wanting therein . at another time , he met him at the half-moon tavern in aldersgate-street , where discoursing about the condition th - conspirators were in . as to the intended insurrection , he said , if he could but see a cloud as big as a man's hand , he would not be wanting to employ his interest , and that there were other discourses tending to the insurrection , but were broke off by the coming in of one john allmeger , before whom , mr. bateman would not discourse , because he knew not of his coming . mr. lee being asked the design of that meeting , replyed it was upon the account of carrying on the conspiracie , and that mr. bateman had told him , that he intended to take a house near the tower , to place men in , in order to surprize it , and that he had held divers conferences with some sea captains on that affair ; and that he had been with them at coffee-houses , &c. at sundry other times , but there to prevent discovery , they spoke of the design at a great distance . to this evidence , mr. bateman objected that if he had been conscous of what was laid to his charge he was fit for bedlam , saying , he wonder'd if he had heard him speak such words , he had not accused him sooner ; but was answered , that mr. goodenough was not to be had till after the rebellion in the west ; and that lee's single testimony in case of high-treason in so high a nature , was not sufficient . then mr. richard goodenough was called , who being sworn , deposed that being in compaay with mr. bateman ( to the best of his remembrance ) at the kings-head tavern in st. swithings-alley near the royal-exchange , and having some discourse about the intended insurrection , and of wade and others that had engaged to promote it . mr. bateman not only approved of the design , but promised to use his interest in raising men ; and not only to be assisting in the division allotted him , but in surprising the city , savoy , &c. and in driving the guards out of town . to this he objected , that he was not at the kings-head with goodenough , to which mr. goodenough replyed , he had not sworn possitive to the place , though he verily believed that was the place ; but however , as to the discourse and words then spoken by mr. bateman he was possitive . the evidence being thus full against mr. bateman , and he liberty granted him to make what defence he could , he desired that sir robert adams might be heard , in relation to a false report the said mr. lee had raised of sir robert and others , and sir robert being in court , gave evidence that there had been a report abroad said to be raised by mr. lee , that he ( viz. ) mr. lee had beaten three knights , and that mr. lee had came to him and asked his pardon , acknowledging the thing in it self was altogether false . to the same purpose sir simon lewis was called , but appeared not . ames child being called by mr. bateman , to testifie his knowledge of mr. lee ; and being asked what he could say against him , declared , that he knew nothing to the contrary , but mr. lee was an honest man. one baker being called by mr. bateman , to testifie that mr. lee would have subborned him against him to his prejudice , some years since , of which he had made an affidavit before sir. william turner , and the said baker not then appearing in court , he desired sir william turner to give some account of baker's examination , which he said sir william had taken , but it being above two years since , sir william declared , he could not charge his memory with any of the particulars contained therein . mr. tompkins sir william turner's clerk being called , and asked what he could say concerning any examination of baker's taken before sir william , that related to lee ; he said , there was an examination taken anno . wherein mr. lee was mentioned ; but to the best of his remembrance it was returned before the king and council , and he could not give any account of the particulars . then mr. bateman desired to know upon what statute he was indicted , and was informed by the court , that the treason wherewith he stood charged , was comprehended within the th . of edward the d. and the th of car. . by overt-act ; and having little more to say in his own defence . after a favourable hearing of all he had materially to offer , and his son having been allowed by the court to assist him , in looking over his notes , and calling his witnesses , by reason he through sickness pretended himself incapable . then the lord chief justice of the king 's - bench sum'd up the evidence at large , and omitted nothing that might be for the advantage of the prisoner , whereby the matter was fairly , fully , and clearly left to the jury ; and thereupon mr. bateman was taken from the bar , after which , the other prisoners being called and tryed , and the jury ready to go forth to consider of their verdict , mr. bateman's daughter came in and besought the court , that baker , whom she said she had found out , might be heard against mr. lee , but mr. lee being gone , and the tryal already over , the king 's council opposed it , unless mr. lee could be found ( which he could not be at that time ) and the court having deliver'd their opinion that it was not convenient to examine any witness after the jury had received their charge , it being a very ill president and of dangerous consequence ; yet some of the jury desiring it , the court to prevent any objections that might be made , consented , and baker had leave to speak , whose evidence was , that being in company with mr. lee , some time in the year . and discoursing about divers matters , he bad him go to the sign of the peacock , and to the angel and crown , to a chirurgeon , and a linnen-draper whom he named , the former of which he remembred to be the prisoner , and to insinuate himself into their company and discourse them ; and when he demanded of mr. lee to what end he should do it , or about what he should discourse them , he told him it might be about state affairs , and by that means he would find a way to make him a great man ; and when he excused his attempting to intrude into such company as was above him , he being but a shooe-maker , mr. lee told him he knew that , he kept company with such , and such men , and why could he not as well do it with those he had mentioned , and of this he said his examination was taken before sir william turner ; but this being nothing to the purpose , but was rather looked upon as a design , mr. lee had to make a discovery of the conspiracie , if he could have procured further evidence to have corroborated his own , and baker being looked upon as a broken fellow and that he lodged near the sessions house , and yet came not in before though often called , the consideration of the whole matter was left to the jury , and an officer being svvorn to attend them went out , and after about half an hours debating that , and what else was before them , gave in their verdict , that charles bateman then at the bar , was guilty of the high-treason as laid in the indictment , which verdict was accordingly recorded , and the prisoner re-conveyed to newgate ; and being again brought to justice-hall , on friday the th . of december , in order to receive sentence ; and upon holding up his hand , being asked what he could say for himself , why the court should not give judgment against him according to the law : he desired to know whether mr. goodenough was fully pardoned , and was told , that as for the out-lawrey he was pardoned , and that his pardon had been allowed and approved of in that court , and in the court of king's-bench , and for any thing else he was not prosecuted : then he said his opinion was altogether for monarchy , and that he hoped he should have an advocate with the king but ; had nothing more material to offer . then mr. recorder , after having spoke several things in aggravation of that great crime , whereof , after a fair and favourable tryal , he was convicted ; advised him not to flatter himself with hopes of life , and thereby delay his repentance necessary for his future happiness , pronounced the sentence , which was , that he should return to the place from whence he came , from thence be drawn to the place of execution , there to be hang'd by the neck , and whilst alive be cut down , and his bowels to be taken out and burnt ; his head to be severed from his body , and his body divided into four parts , and that his head and quarters be disposed of , at the pleasure of the king. upon this , he prayed a divine might have leave to come to him , as likewise his relations , which being allowed he departed the court , and was on friday the th . of december , executed at tyburn according to sentence . finis . the substance of the tryal of of john holland , and william davis , who were tryed and committed , for conspiring against , and falsely imprisoning william chancey , citizen and mercer of london , at justice-hall in the old bayly . on the th of december , . upon an indictment found against edward hays . william price , john holland , and william davis , for conspiring against , violently assaulting , and forcibly imprisoning , for the space of six hours the person of william chancey , citizen and mercer of london , against his will , and without any warrentable cause , whom they falsely charged with uttering divers treasonable words , to extort from him a sum of money , &c. john holland and william davis , were brought in the custody of the keeper of newgate , to justice-hall in the old-bayly , where upon their arraignment they pleaded not guilty , and desired their tryal might be delayed , seeing they were not prepared to make their defences , and were thereupon taken from the bar , but on the th . of december , . the lord mayor , mr. recorder , sir henry tulse , and other aldermen , being present they were brought up a second time , and ordered to look to their challenges , but making no exceptions the jury was sworn , viz. john meridale benjamin boltby john baly thomas barns richard bromfield samuel linn edward hemstead robert longland samuel bishop james fern william wheatly thomas phelps the indictment being read a second time , the council for the king opened the nature of the fact , of which the prisoners stood accused in all it 's unparralled circumstances , and then to proceed to swear mr. chancey , who gave evidence , that on saturday the th . day of november last , he was informed that a boy had been sent from the king 's - arms tavern in lawrence-lane london , about four of the clock in the afternoon , to let him know that there were two gentlemen that desired to speak with him , whereupon he went , and being shewed where they were , found them to be hays and holland , the former of which he had some small acquaintance with , he having been once a citizen , but as for the latter at that time he knew him not . hays after a complement had passed , desired to speak with him in private , but holland whom hays called captain holland , was somewhat against it , saying , they might speak what they had to say in his presence , but in the end he retir'd , when hay's in a melancholy tone , cryed out , o! mr. chancey i am the unfortunatest man alive , for being the other day in the company of the captain , i chanced to let fall some words said to be spoken by a merchant in london , which proved to be treason , and with which i am charged , and am now a prisoner to the captain , and therefore am obliged to produce you as my author ; upon this mr. chancey being a little surprized , as not knoing to what it might tend ; and not being conscious of any thing of that nature , replyed , he had never spoken any treasonable words , and that he knew not what he meant , whereupon as probable it had been agreed , holland came in and demanded of hays , if that was the person , meaning mr. chancey , that had spoke the words , to whom hays replyed he was : at which holland told him he was his prisoner , and must go with him to white-hall , before the secretary of state ; then mr. chancey demanding ing to see his warrent , he told him he was a captain of the guard , and that a captain of the king's guard had power without a warrant to seize any person for high-treason , with which he was charged ; then mr chancy desired to send for some friends , but holland would not hearken to that , telling him he must instantly go with him out of the damn'd factious city , as he term'd it , but withal that he would call at the crown tavern without temple-bar ; whereupon they stopping in cheapside , mr. chancey found an opportunity to send a person to his brother , to let him understand what had happened , and that he was going to white-hall , but should stay at the crown tavern , and thither he desired he would come to him , and all the way as they were going , holland railed and cursed hayes , that he being one of his majesties servants , should be such a vilan as to conceal treason , but holland understanding that mr. chancy had sent for his brother , and fearing the business might be discovered , would not suffer him to stay at the crown tavern nor send word where they were gone , but caused the coach to drive to the fountain tavern in the strand being nigh the savoy , where he said he could have several files of musquettiers to secure him if need required , and there it was that after some threats of soldiers , messengers , and imprisonment , and execrable oaths that he would run him through if he offered to make an escape : hays began to tamper with him , leting him know that the business yet might be hush'd up by stopping the captain 's mouth with a sum of money , since none but he could detect it ; but finding him absolutely averse to it , and whilst they were thus discoursing , word was brought up to holland that there were two of his kinsmen that would speak with him , and accordingly they were brought in and we were ordered to take no notice of the business in hand ; they discoursed of the rebellion in the west , he took them to be welsh , for the same time ( as he guessed ) they talked that language ; they being gone , and he not willing to give any money , to white-hall we must go ; but mr. chancey observed that holland paid two reckonings for a company in the house then present , beside their own ; when we came to vvhite-hall-gate , hays cryed , and stamped , and desired for god's sake we might not go in , for if we should , he and his family were certainly ruin'd , for he had two places at court worth eight hundred pounds , and he should loose them both , besides being pis'● upon by every body if this matter should come publick , therefore desired we might go to the swan tavern in westminster , which accordingly we did , there they both argued that it would be for both our interest to comply with the captain in his proposal beforementioned , that is , to give holland two hundred pounds , for that it was in his breast alone at present , but if we should be carryed before a secretary , or put to the hands of a messenger , it would be then out of his power ; but mr. chancey still persisted that he would not give any thing , whereupon to white-hall we must go ( says holland ) in order to be examined , and then the said hays declared that i was the person , which the merchant should say spoke those words ; however he was never brought before any body , albeit he was carryed to several places in white-hall for that : holland pretended the secretary was busie ; but after some stay , he said he would deliver us into the hands of a messenger which he was informed was at the fountain tavern in the strand , whom ( as he pretended ) he had sent for when we were there before , and accordingly thither he carryed us ; but there being no messenger , he then sayed he would send for one , and accordingly mr. chancey thought that halland had sent for one , but hays and he still continued their perswasions to give two hundred pounds , but finding him unwilling to give any thing , captain holland draws up a pretended information of high-treason against him only , which being done , word was brought that two of the gentlemen that were in company with them the last night were in the house ; holland desired them to come in , hays in the mean time called mr. chancey aside , and strongly perswaded him to comply with the captains demands , saying , that if he had not money enough , he would prevail with the captain to take his bond , and that he himself would be bound with him , and then he would be no more than one hundred pounds out ; however the two persons being come in , and as was afterwards inform'd , one was mr. william davis , and the other mr. william price whereupon mr holland reads the information to them , which he had just before written , and told him that price was a barrister ; then price did affirm that the words were high-treason , and perswaded him to comply , saying , it was the best hundred pounds that ever he parted with in his life , adding if he were innocent , that the delays , the neglect of his business , and the charges would amount to a greater sum ; likewise davis that came in with him , perswaded him to it also , and holland swore he would send him to prison without carrying him before a justice of peace ; and added , that one delawne had been in newgate for several years and never knew for what , and that he was like to lye there as long as he lived , and that cornish was hanged for only hearing a treasonable declaration read , and that his guilt was greater , having spoken words at length , finding by their discourse they would stick at no oath for interest or revenge , and knowing it was sunday morning , and not knowing what manner of men he had to deal with , nor what they might swear falsely against him , tired by hurrying him up and down as aforesaid , and somewhat affrighted with their menaces at the reiterated importunity of hays , who pretended himself to be in the greatest consternation imaginable , for fear the business should come to light , and in hopes to be rid of his dangerous company , that he might at leasure consider better what he had to do ; he consented to enter in to a bond with hays in the penalty of l. for the payment of , and the bonds to be made to holland ; but this would not be accepted till he farther consented to sign a warrant of attorney , to confess judgment upon the pond . this being concluded upon , holland sent his foot-boy to call up mr. — a neighbouring scrivener to make the writings , it being then between two and three of the clock on sunday morning , who was very unwilling to rise at so unseasonable an hour ; but being told there were divers gentlemen at the fountain that must needs speak with him , to draw some writings upon an urgent occasion , he at last went , and there found holland , hays davis , price , and mr. chancey , and that the instructions were ready drawn up , which he took into his own note-book , and so went home to draw up the writings , where he had not been long e'r price came to him , and told him that he must date the bond any day in trinity term last , the business so requiring , whereupon he dated it the th . of june , so that it became payable the next day after it was signed . this the scrivener ignorant of the consideration thinking pretty hard , and that a judgement was to be confessed upon it without a defeazance , made some scruple to do it ; but price assuring him it was so agreed for sundry reasons best known to themselves , he brought the writings , and spared not to say as much in the company , but mr. chancey not contradicting it the bonds were signed , but the warrents of attorney being purposed , he scrupled to sign it , and whispering holland in the ear , said , what need this , will not my bond suffice ? but he and his accomplices crying out , are not we agreed ? is it not so agreed ? &c. and hays without bogling signing on his part , mr. chancey with some reluctancy did the like , and then the scrivener proposing it was convenient to have releases to bar any former consideration for which the bond might be given , they willingly assented to it , and it was signed by holland bearing date before the bond , whereupon the scrivener was discharged , and mr. chancey had leave to go about his business , and then mr. chancey further deposed that on monday the th . of november , holland sent his foot-boy with a note directed to mr. chancey , at his house in st. lawrence lane , informing him that he had a present occasion for l. and that he must needs furnish him with that sum , as likewise with silk to make him a cap , a night-gown and a pair of slippers , promising to use him very kindly in the payment of the rest , and to take out part of it in wares , which was confirmed by the foot-boy being sworn , but mr. chancey by this time being better advised , and finding it was a cheat , and understanding by the boy where his master was , under pretence of furnishing him with the money and goods he had sent for , found means to secure him ; who being carried before a judge , was upon the oath of mr. chancey committed to newgate , and price being soon after taken , was committed to the king 's - bench and afterwards together with hays was bailed to appear at the king 's - bench , as it was suggested to the court. to this holland pleaded he only took the bonds to oblige the partys to appear before the secretary of state , and that he did it to save himself harmless , there being no consideration why mr. chancey should be otherwise obliged to him , and that he had made his report of the matter to a person of quality , who told him he had over done his business . davis pleaded that he was ignorant of the matter as to the contriving of it , and only came in by chance as he was going to his lodging that was near the fountain tavern , and was desired to stay as a witness to the writings ; whereupon holland's foot-boy being sworn , gave evidence , that he had seen davis pass through the king 's - arms tavern in st. lawrence-lane , when his master and mr. hays were above with mr. chancey , and farther that he had after that been to look for him to come to his master . this objection being answered , he proceeded to intimate that mr. chancey was a disaffected person , and that hays had affirmed he heard him speak these words , viz. that the rebellion in scotland was no rebellion , but a mere trick to get money , or to that effect ; whereupon mr chancey called several worthy persons to testifie his behaviour , and first sir edward waldon with whom he had served his time , who declared that he had all along behaved himself civilly and modestly , and that he ever looked upon him to be a very loyal person , and well affected to the government ; adding , that he had been so faithful a servant , that he could not enough commend him . sir robert adams being desired to testifie his knowledge on this occasion , declared , that he had known him many years , and that he always took him to be a very honest loyal man. mr. brough , the fore-man of the grand jury for london , testified the same as did some others of known loyalty and integrity ; so that the jury receiving the charge by mr. recorder , in which all was most exactly summed up that had been sworn against the prisoners , &c. and defence they had made for themselves , they withdrew , and within the space of half an hour gave in their verdict , that john holland and william davis were guilty of the conspiracie , assault , and false imprisonment , as laid in the indictment . the tryals of john holland , william davis and agnes wearing , for a felony and burglary : committed in the house of mr. leonel gatford , minister in lyme-street , on the th . of september , . john holland and william davis , were a second time indicted for a felony and burglary , committed in the house of mr. leonel gatford of lyme-street london , in the parish of st. dionis back-church , on the th . of september last , together with agnes wearing , as accessary , before and after the felony and burglary committed ; the goods layed in the indictment were sixteen silver spoons , nine silver porrengers , four silver salts , three silver pots , two silver plates , five silver candlesticks , a silver skimer , four silver boxes , one silver tanckard , one silver ladle , six diamond rings , twenty plain rings , and other plate of value ; thirty guineas , forty pounds in silver , &c. in all upward in value of three hundred pounds : to which indictment , the prisoners having severally pleaded not guilty , put themselves upon the jury for their tryals . the jurors were john wakley , george reeve , joshua sabin , richard jagman , richard austin , job harris , gilbert east , martin simpson , — masters , robert stevens , richard newstrop . thomas oliver , the jury sworn and the indictment a second time read , mr. gatford , gave evidence , that about six of the clock in the afternoon , going to prayers and leaving his wife and his maid in his house ( which maid was agnes wearing ) and returning about eight of the clock the same evening , found his house rifled and his wife much abused ; the things mentioned in the indictment , &c. being at that time stolen . mrs. gatford gave evidence , that on friday the th . of september , about five or six a clock at night , in the absence of her husband , somebody knocking at the door , she sent agnes wearing ( the prisoner at the bar , being her maid ) down to see who it was , and she returning , told her it was a gentleman would speak with her , she then desired he would send up his name and business , but the maid replyed he had a letter for her , which he said he must deliver to her hand , however she told her she would not see him till she knew his name , but whilst they were discoursing concerning it , a person came up stairs with both ends of his wig in his mouth , and made as if he would present her with a letter , but she seeming shye , and telling him he was a stranger to her ; he let go the ends of his vvigg , and swearing a great oath that he was a great stranger to her , and clapped his hands upon her throat and neck , saying he wanted money ; commanded her on pain of death not to make any noise ; and whilst this happened , he heard her maid cry out softly , thieves , thieves ; and then taking up her upper coat , he drew it over her head , and so tyed it vvith her hands in it , calling as loud as he durst , jack , jack , why don't you come up jack ? but he making as if he stay'd belovv to secure the maid , he cryed damn her for a bitch , shoot her , cut her throat , what is her life worth ? which mrs. gatford taking to be in earnest , besought them for gods sake not to kill her maid ; hovvever jack soon came up stairs , vvhereupon he that first seized mrs. gatford , commanded her to tell vvhere the money vvas , vvho replyed , she had none but what was in her purse : then he asked vvhere her purse vvas , she said in her pocket , then pull it out said he , but her hands being vvithin her coats , she told him she could not , vvhereupon he said he vvould take it out , vvhich he doing , and then laying her on her face vvith dreadful threats , that if she stirr'd — they vvent directly to the place vvhere the money vvas , altho' in a very private place ; as also to the glass case of plate : the first they had some difficulty to find , and vvere once about to go avvay vvithout it , but one of them knocking a board in the closet that vvas to dravv up heard it chink , and so by force vvrenching it up , they took the money before-mentioned , and other things not named : having gotten their prey , they told mrs. gatford she must go down into the celler ; to vvhich she replyed she could not see the way , then he that came up first lead her , and vvhen she vvas on the top of the stairs bid her take her first step , vvhich she did , and immediately slipp'd dovvn to the bottom , and did the like on the top of the celler stairs , being belovv they bound her to a partition , and brought dovvn agnes vvearing , vvhom they bound likevvise and set her by her , but so loose that she might easily have unbound her self ; near her likevvise they laid a piece of red damask , vvherevvith vvearing pretended they had blinded her , and so charging them not to stir for half an hour , nor make any noise , under the pain of being shot or run through ; ( for as they said , they vvould stay half an hour to observe them ) and having plunder'd the house they departed vvith their booty : when as mrs gatford hearing all still , and imagining as much , bid her maid ( vvho by this time had gotten her self pretty vvell at liberty ) to cry out which she feigned to do , but vvith so lovv a voice , as she vvas sure she could be heard by none , and therein excused her self through the fear she conceived of having her throat cut if they should happen to return ; hovvever , she got so much her liberty , that she untiy'd her mistress , and then pretndned that her hands vvere tyed over her head , vvhich vvhen her mistress vvent to help her , she found the same vvas so loose that she could easily have untyed her self . the robery being thus committed that discovery might the better be made : it vvas for some days kept a little private , for vvho vvere the robers was not as yet known to mr. gatford nor his wife ; and because one mr. hamlin's evidence on this occasion was rare and unusual corroberating and confirming that which was more possitive . mr. hamlin being called and sworn for the king , deposed that sometime before the robery , going with a french merchant to a musick-house near moor-fields to look for a laundress who had pawn'd one of his cravats , that he might perswade her to tell him where it was , and he thereby have the opportunity of redeeming it : having found the party whilst his friend was discoursing her , he retired and went down into the musick-room , and sat him down by agnes wearing ( whom he then knew not ) accompanyed only with an old woman , which made him press himself into her company and pass some complements on her ; she being well habited , and making such a suitable return , he earnestly desired to know what she was , she thereupon told him he was mistaken in the person he addressed himself to , for that she was but a cook-maid ; and when he found she made some difficulty in believing it , because she was better habited than might well consist with such an employment , she told him , that he might go a long with her and be satisfied , to this he consented , and went with her and the old woman as far as houndsditch where the latter turned off : from thence agnes wearing went with him through bishops-gate , and so to her masters house in lymestreet , and shewing him the kitchen and all its furniture , demanded , if he was confirmed in what she said , and some other words having passed , she desired him not to stay at that time , least notice should be taken of it , but if he would take any other opportunity to send for her , either to ale-house or tavern , she would come to him , and so they parted . about two days after the robery was committed , mr. hamlin being one evening upon the exchange with a scotchman a friend of his , his friend asked him , if he knew not where to spend an hour or two that dull evening , to which he replyed , he had a new mistress whose conversation was very taking , and who had invited him to pay her a visit , and so proceeded to tell him the whole story , whereupon they agreed to go thither ; and it being somewhat dark mr. hamlin left his friend at a distance , and knocked at her masters gate , holding ( to be the less known if any body else should open it ) the ends of his periwig in his mouth ; ( the posture the party came in that first seized mrs. gatford : ) scarce had he knocked twice when agnes wearing opening it , and not being capable of discerning who he was ; but supposing him to be the person he was not , fell to pushing him back , and as one in an extraordinary surprize , cryed out , though somewhat low , o! mr. davis what do you do here , will you ruin your self and me ? there is a great ado about the robery , and i would not have you appear here this month : is the plate secure ? have you shared the money ? is mr. holland safe ? and having said these words , ( to which mr. hamlin conceiving some robery had been committed made her a suitable reply ; ) she thrust him to be gone and shut the gate . this mr. hamlin told to his friend and divers others , and heard soon after of the robery that had been committed , and advised with several , whether he should acquaint mr. gatford with what he had heard ; but some alledging he might bring himself into trouble if he had no better ground for it , or no more to testifie than what he had heard , whereupon he forbore it a month or thereabouts ; after that he met agnes wearing in moor-fields with hollands foot-boy after her , and began to renew his former acquaintance with her , but at first she seemed strange and would not know him , till he remembred her of several passages that had been between them , and then she told him , she was fearful of lying aloan , and that she was going into spittle-fields , to get her sister to lye with her ; for it seems she then was come from her place . this would not satisfie him , but he would needs drink with her ; so after having taken a view of bethlehem , and dismissed the boy , they went to a house near moor-gate ; and there he told her how she had mistaken him such a night , and what he had heard her speak and observed , whereupon she began to excuse it and to change colour , and in the end confessed , she was mistaken , but that there was nothing in it , or to that effect , and so they parted . mr. hamlin not long after acquainted mr. gatford what he heard from agnes wearing , and holland having had notice of this from the said agnes , went to take up the said hamlin , for charging him falsely with the said robery : then margaret harris being sworn , said that she went to live with one madam walton , who lodged then at one mr. canes in new-street as her hired servant about the middle of august last , and that on or about the beginning of september , davis , holland , and one bishop , were together at the dog-tavern in , or near , newgate-street with her lady ( for so she called her ) & another woman , which she since believes was mr. gatfords maid , making very merry there ; and that about the middle of the same month of september , she was sent out by her lady to find out one mr. price , but not finding him she returned to her lady , & found william davis , whom she often had seen there before , near her closet door , and one humpton sitting in the room behind the door , and she then going near to her lady , to give her an account of her errand , looking over her shoulder , saw davis take out of his pocket a great handful of rings ; a great part of which were mourning rings , and from amongst them gave her lady a diamond ring , soon after which , davis and humpton went away together ; and then her lady said to her , margaret , see here what a fine ring mr. davis hath given me , which she then looked upon , and observed the same to be a diamond-ring with seven stones , in the middle one having a flaw therein fill'd up with silver ; and thereupon told her lady that she wondered she would take it of him , for that he was a clipper , a shop lifter , and a very ill man , and therefore to be suspected that he had stolen it ; to which her lady replyed , that she did not care if he robbed all the shops in town , so that he maintained her handsomely ; upon which she replyed , she doubted she would bring her self into trouble by it , and was sorry for it ; upon that , her lady was very angry with her , and gave her a box on the ear , and bid her meddle with her own business . about three or four days afterwards , her lady sent her to her daughters , one mrs. stanly , at one foot 's a barber in blow-bladder-street , over against the dog-tavern before mentioned , to borrow some money of her ; where when she came , she found her a bed , & gave her then an account of her business , who told her she had no money ; whereupon she asked her if she had the gazette , upon vvhich , mrs. stanly told her she had , and there vvas a great robery committed , mentioned therein , and shovved it to her , vvho read it , and found a diamond-ring vvith seven stones , and other descriptions according to what she had observed in the ring she saw davis give to her lady therein mentioned to be stolen , with several other rings , whereupon she said , that ring which davis had given to her lady , was the ring therein mentioned ; and that she believed that davis and holland ( for that she found them often together concerned in many crimes ) had committed the robery , and asked mrs. stanelys advice , whether she had not best write a letter , and put it into the penny-post , to give mr. gatford an account of it ; mrs. stanely replyed , she believed it to be true , but if she should do it without her mothers consent , she would go nigh to kill them both ; whereupon she went back to her lady , and carried the gazette with her , and told her what discourse had passed between her and her daughter concerning the ring , and gave her the gazette , and shewed her the place where the robery was mentioned , and told her of her daughters , and her intentions , but she was very angry thereat , and called them a couple of bloody bitches , and asked whether they had a mind to dip their hands in innocent blood , and beat this deponent , and tore all the cloaths off her head , and gave her a blow on the face , and made her nose bleed ; but it so happened , that a night or two afterwards she apprehended her lady was in a better humour , and therefore desired again that she would permit the ring to be produced to the minister that was robbed , believing it to be his ring , and offered that she should have the ten pounds ; but her lady refused so to do , and then collogued with her , and was very kind to her , and offered her ten pounds not to be concerned any more about it , and promised to keep her like a gentlewoman whilst she lived with her , and if she married she vvould give her five hundred pound , and if she continued vvith her till she dyed , she vvould give her fifty pound a year , for one & tvventy years ; to all vvhich , she ansvvered very little ; but about a fortnight aftervvards on a sunday , davis came and demanded the diamond ring of her lady , which this deponent advised her privately , not to let him have ; however he sate down by her lady on the bed-side , with his hand upon his knee , and whilst he was discoursing she observed a large plain gold ring upon his finger , which she with his leave took off to look upon , much commending it , and desiring that he would give it her , and looking upon it and the posie , which was , god above increase our love ; she read the same aloud , in the presence and hearing both of her lady and the said davis , upon which she told davis it was a good posie , and since he had promised to get her a husband , he would do well to give her that ring against she got him , but he would not , whereupon she gave it him again , but did not observe that her lady did let him have the diamond ring again ; but after he was gone , she said to her lady , what think you now madam , is it not true that davis and holland robbed the parson , for this is the ring , and the posie i read to you in the other ring is the same posie , both mentioned in the gazette ; whereupon her lady ( as formerly ) was very angry with her ; but about two or three nights afterwards , davis and one harrison came into her ladys chamber , and siting down , davis pulled forth a handful of guineas and other pieces , upon sight of which , her lady said , mr. davis when will you send me in some — davis replyed , and swore a great oath , that next week he would send her in a butchers tray full ; whereupon she said to mr harrison , we shall have guineas enough to thatch a house : and after they vvere gone , she desired leave of her lady , that she might go and discover this vvhole matter , othervvise mischief might come of it , but her lady vvould not let her go ; and one day in the morning early , she desired the maid of the house to call her as if some person would speak vvith her , intending by that means to have got out to make the discovery , vvhich the maid did ; and vvhen she vvas going , her lady lept out of her bed and stopt her , and beat her very much and locked her up , pretending she had got the ring , and then soon after favvned upon her , letting her knovv that she had accused her unjustly , and repeated her former promises to her , to engage her to the contrary : hovvever , tvvo days aftervvards being in october , on a wednesday in the sessions week ; she again desired to go forth , to deliver a letter for her father , but her lady suspecting she would go tell mr. gatford , charged her not to do so upon her salvation , and withal swore her upon a mass-book , that she should not tell mr gatford , by which compliance she got leave to go forth , and then went immediately to her sisters , at madam armatages in crain-court in fleet-street , and informed them both , of all those passages ; and advised with them , whether she might discover it notwithstanding her oath , who did advise her to go forthwith to mr. gatford and discover the whole matter , which she accordingly did the same day , and afterwards went back to her lady , and stay'd with her tho' in great danger , and under much dread ; being often told by her lady , that they would do her a mischief ; till the day before her lady was taken and sent to the compter , out of which she was soon after bailed ; and further saith , that she saw her lady have the said ring in her bosome the day before she was taken , and often heard her say that she would through it down the house of office , before it should be discovered : when she had done , then mr. recorder asked her , where was that madam walton , she had so often mentioned in her evidence ? to which , she answered that she was there , ( pointing up to the gallery ) amongst several other ladys and women : whereupon mr. recorder order'd an officer to go up immediately and wait upon her down , and thereupon she was brought into court , ( very richly habited ) and pretended she was an irish earls daughter , and a woman of quality ; however she was committed to prison upon the evidence that had been given , and an indictment order'd to be preferr'd against her , and persons bound to prosecute the same , which afterwards was accordingly done , and the indictment found , and there was a letter likewise given in evidence against holland , which holland own'd to be his hand , and was wrote to agnes wearing , & did mention things relating to this business ; and then holland's foot-boy was called and sworn , who testified that he had been often sent on messuages by his master to agnes wearing , and by that means was instrumental in having her taken by discovering the lodging that his master had often provided for her , tho' she had shifted them divers times , and being in custody upon hearing that davis and holland were taken , she cry'd out we are all concerned , and hoped they should live and dye together , for she was resolved she would live and dye with them . this being the substance of the evidence given against the prisoners at the bar : they were then asked by the recorder every one of them singly , what they had to offer in defence of themselves against this great crime . thus as it were miraculously made out against them , davis endeavoured to make it appear , that he had bought the diamond ring and as for the wedding-ring , there were few goldsmiths shops , that afforded not rings with the like posie , and did produce a person in court , of whom he had bought a diamond-ring , but it was about nine months since , and the same did appear to be another manner of a ring , and disposed of before the robery was committed , and the ring he had given to his mistress consequently could not be the same , then he called persons to discredit margaret harris , by alledging her unjustness , and amongst others , a mistress with whom she had formerly lived , who instead of accusing her of dishonesty , gave her a good character . holland alledged malice in mr. hamlin , and that mr. gatford had brib'd his foot-boy , but the former not appearing , and the boy upon oath declaring the contrary , that mr. gatford had indeed promised him two guineas to discover the lodging of agnes wearing , the which when he had done , he would not give it him till the tryals were over , lest the prisoner should construe that as a bribe , to induce him to swear against them ; and having nothing more material to offer further in their defence , agnes wearing insisting upon her innocence . mr. recorder sum'd up the evidence to the jury , very particularly , and at large , and more especially after he had repeated hamlin's evidence given against holland ( which he observed was their most difficult parts , for that generally what one prisoner saith of another is not evidence ) yet as this case is , they might consider the occasion that moved agnes wearing to speak what she did , it being without any compulsion , or any thing laid to her charge at that time she could not speak it out of any by ends , or dread , but merely upon a mistake and surprise , apprehending it was davis , because of his appearing to her in the same posture as davis was in , when he seized upon mrs. gatford , and then it was very plain by the whole course of the evidence , that holland , davis , and wearing were all well acquainted , and their familiarity began much about the time , when this fact was committed , and they both very fond of her , but holland more especially , he using all diligence to take care of her , and conceal her , by providing several lodgings for her in by places , and what was testified against davis and agnes , and what she confessed to hollithorn , made it plain if they did give credit to the witnesses ; so that upon the whole matter , he left it to them , whether they would find all or any , and which of the prisoners guilty or not guilty of this crime , whereof they stood charged within the indictment . whereupon , the jury after they were withdrawn some time , came in , and found them all three guilty of the indictment ; and william davis and agnes wearing , were executed on wednesday following , and holland reprieved . this may be printed , r. l. s. january the th : . finis . a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly at a sessions there held; which began on wednesday the th of this instant decemb. and ended on saturday the th, . setting forth the several facts and tryals of several malefactors. with the tryal of the maid that set her master's barns on fire at harrow on the hill, at michaelmas last. with an account how many are condemned, burn'd in the hand, to be whipt, and transported. with allowance. roger l'estrange. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly at a sessions there held; which began on wednesday the th of this instant decemb. and ended on saturday the th, . setting forth the several facts and tryals of several malefactors. with the tryal of the maid that set her master's barns on fire at harrow on the hill, at michaelmas last. with an account how many are condemned, burn'd in the hand, to be whipt, and transported. with allowance. roger l'estrange. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) p. printed for d.m., london : . copy has print show-through. reproduction of the original in the guildhall library, london. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england -- early works to . crime -- england -- early works to . criminals -- england -- early works to . murder -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , at a sessions there held ; which began on wednesday the th of this instant decemb. and ended on saturday the th , . setting forth the several facts and tryals of several malefactors . with the tryal of the maid that set her master's barns on fire at harrow on the hill , at michaelmas last . with an account how many are condemned , burn'd in the hand , to be whipt , and transported . with allowance . roger l'estrange . london : printed for d. m. . a narrative of the proceedings at the sessions begun the th of december , at the oly bayly . the first person tried , was for making away her bastard-childe ; but upon hearing the evidence , and examination both of the midwife and coroner , it appeared to be onely a miscarriage ; and by several circumstances there was reason to judge that she had not gone above sixteen weeks , and had never been quick , the abortive infant being not above eight inches long , and no symptoms of wounds or bruises being to be seen on the body to argue any violence used to it , the jury thereupon thought fit to bring her in not guilty . a young man was arraigned for murther , killing an old man in st. james's park : two fellows being running together in the evening the poor ancient man unlukily happen'd to be in their way , and one of them tumbled him down and bruised him , of which bruise the next day he died ; but the evidence testifying that it was done meerly by accident , without any grudge or quarrel precedent , and that the prisoner as food as he perceived he had done an injury , went immediately and call'd a chair to carry him home , &c. there was no reason for finding the indictment , so that he was discharged . a servant maid was found guilty of stealing a silver tankard of the value of five pounds : she living at a publick house in the old jury , took an opportunity to take it away ; and having knock'd off the lid , brought it to a goldsmith to sell , who perceiving the cover lately broke off , would not buy it , unless she would shew it him ; which after much importunity she did , and upon that was engraven the name of the owner , whose wife she then pretended to be , and had the goldsmith to a confederates house , who seemed to say as much : but at last being trapp'd in their words by him , she confess'd the felony to him , and afterwards on her examination before the justice , and acknowledg'd in effect as much now at the bar , onely said that the tankard was delivered her to sell by a fellow servant ; but there being neither proof nor probability of any such things , she was convicted . a woman was indicted for burning her master's barns at harrow on the hill , in which a considerable parcel of wheat and other corn was consumed on michaelmas day last . her master and his wife gave evidence , but nothing of their own knowledge , onely that she had confess'd the fact , that in their absence in the evening she took a fire-brand , and carrying it out of the house put it in at a hole in the barn amongst a mow of unthrash'd oats , whereby that barn , and another adjoyning were burn'd down , and the dwelling house with much difficulty preserved . and this likewise appeared on reading her examination ; for which mischievous act she could alleadge no other provocation but that her master would not lend her money to go to a wedding . however the justice that committed her , assuring the court from his personal knowledge , that the prisoners father was a very m●lanch●ly and dist●mper'd man , and that she her self had a defect in her understanding , and many times at least not the use of common reason or sense , and the evidence against her in effect acknowledging as much , which was confirmed by her present stupid carriage at the b●r. the jury looking upon her as non compos mentis at the time of the fact committed , could not finde her guilty in the eye of the law , of the crime for which she stood indicted . two legerdemain ladies of profound experience in the mysteries of shop lifting ; one of them having been whipt at the carts tail but the very last sessions , were convicted for stealing two pieces of callicoe , under pretence of buying ●o●kerum . the goods were taken before they got out of sight in one of their aprons , who alleadged a very civil excuse , assuring the court that she was drunk with brandy , and knew not what she did ; but that plea was over-rul'd , and both of them found guilty . a french gentleman , came in voluntarily to take a tryal for killing a marshal's man's follower , in april last was two years , at the end of st. martins-lane . the marshals man himself was gone another way , and the party kill'd , and three or four more seiz'd the prisoner ( as they subpose it was ) but without having any warrant at that instant with them ; and besides , the warrant their master had was wrong in the christian name . upon their taking the party , divers of his companions drew their swords , and one of the bayliffs lost his life in the fray ; but the evidence could not say who kill'd him , nor positively that the prisoner at bar was the person they had arrested : so that he was acquitted both of murther and manslaughter . the next was a tedious tryal of a young fellow for breaking open the house of a worthy gentleman his late master , and stealing thence a spanish gun , and other goods , to the value of fourty pound . there appeared several violent presumptions of guilt , and a person where the gun was found had sworn directly before the justice , that the prisoner was the man that sold it ; and another , that he verily believ'd him to be the man ; but now neither of them would say further , than that he was somewhat like him . the prisoner had a great number to speak in his behalf , but few couln say any thing to the purpose ; and the court declared themselves sensible of much practice us'd on the prisoner's behalf , to conceal the truth , yet on a full hearing , for want of direct evidence , the jury brought him in not guilty . a flemming born in the city of antwerp , was indicted on the statute for exercising the trade of a gold-beater here , not having served seven years an apprentice ; but it being prov'd by several witnesses that he serv'd the said term to his father of the same trade in the said city of antwerp , and that he was an excellent artist . the court considering the intent of the said statute , which is onely to prevent unskilful and insufficient workmen ; and that the art it self prohibi●s onely those that have been apprentices , or not serv'd as apprentices : and though he were not apprentice in england , yet he had serv'd as an apprentice abroad ; which they concluded to be within the intent of the statute : for otherwise it would be too great a discouragement to foreigners to instruct us in the usual inventions ; and therefore the jury found him not guilty . an old offender was convicted for stealing a bay gelding of six pound price , a quarter of grownd mault and two sacks : the horse was taken out of the stable on the th of nov. and the two sacks of mault with it . the very next day the owner coming to london met the prisoner driving his horse along st. gileses's , with one of the sacks empty on his arm , and there seiz'd him , who now pretended that the sack was given him by two strangers , he knew not who , for his pains to drive the horse along tyburn road , but he knew not whether ; and therefore seeming onely a forged excuse , without any proof to confirm it , he was found guilty , it being avert'd in court that he had three times already been burnt in the hand and convicted . two persons , one by his own confession , and the other by verdidict , were convicted for stealing a silver tankard in the woolstaple westminster , from a publique house , whence at once they stole away themselves , the plate and the reckoning , but were discovered by a female crony , upon a disgust , that she was not allowed snips in the prize , &c. a woman as principal , and a man as accessary , were conviicted for stealing plate , and other rich goods , to the value of pound from a frenchman at westminster ; whose servant the woman being , to●k the opportun●●y of his absence , and ransackt several of his rooms , and stole the said goods , after which the said other prisoner took her a lodging , disposed of a watch , and some of the plate ; for which both were found guilty . a lighterman and his wife were arraigned , for stealing of about pieces of serge , out of a lighter on the thomes ; the prosecuter produced several witnesses , and one very roundly swore , that she saw two of the pieces of serge in the prisoners house in the cradle , and that his wife seemed much afraid of a search ; and threatned to fling them into the house or office , &c. but upon a full examination , it appearing that there had been several suits and brangles between the parties , that the prisoner was sick at the time of the robbery , that it was two years ago , and no prosecution all this while , that the husband prisoner was a person of good fame , &c. they were both acquitted by the jury . there was great exbectation of the tryal of one lodowick muggleton , for spreading detestable opinions , and publishing several impious books ; but the same was put off , till witnesses might be ready for a full discovery of his villanies , and therefore the reader is to take notice , that any pamphlets published concerning his tryal , are faigned stories . there were t●nn burnt in the hand , seven allowed transportation , ten to be whipt , and one to stand in the pillory . finis . a true copy of a letter, writen by mr. harrison, in newgate, to a near relation, after his condemnation for the murther of doctor clinch. harrison, henry, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page image. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing h estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true copy of a letter, writen by mr. harrison, in newgate, to a near relation, after his condemnation for the murther of doctor clinch. harrison, henry, d. . sheet ([ ] p.) printed for randal tayler near stationers hall, london : [ ] date of publication from wing. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng clench, andrew, d. -- early works to . executions and executioners -- england -- early works to . last words -- early works to . trials (murder) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - pip willcox sampled and proofread - pip willcox text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true copy of a letter , writen by mr. harrison , in newgate , to a near relation , after his condemnation for the murther of doctor clinch . dear cosen , now accept of my hearty thanks for all your services and loving kindnesses ; and god allmighty reward you : i am now preparing my self for another world , and do heartily forgive all my enemies . there was four of my witnesses that did not appear ; one mr. white and his wife , mrs. fairelace and the maid , where i was that night . let not god lay my blood to their charge : and god forgive all those that swore falcely against me . and whether before my execution , or after , god is pleased to do it ( but i am sure he will reveal it ) and when it is brought to light , the world then will know my wrongs . in the mean time i resigne my soul and body to him , who is a just god , and by this means will bring me to himself . this affliction is a great one , and more than human nature can bear ; but i trust in him , that he will not lay more on me , than he will give me the grace of his holy spirit to undergo . and indeed i look upon it as a fatherly chastisement , for whom he loves he doth chastise : for if i had my deserts , he might have taken me off in the midst of all my sins , and have rewarded me with the punishment of the everlasting prison ( hell ) prepared for all impenitent sinners : but i hope he will give me the grace of his holy spirit to repent my self of all my sins ; which i have , and do , and shall , with a humble , lowly , and obedient heart , and not in the least cloke , or dissemble them before my heavenly father , who gave up his only begoten son to dy for sinners ( and me the greatest . ) and i hope he will give me the grace to follow his example , who was falsly accused , condemned , and suffered a shameful death upon the cross ; i being now falsly to suffer a shamful death : at which time i sincerely and heartily beg of him to support me , which i trust in god he will : humbly beging pardon , and confessing the sins i have been guilty of . now i have two things to beg of you , for christ his sake : the first is , that you will take it from me a dying man , without the least hopes of pardon here , from any mortal man , that i am innocent , clear , and free , in thought , word , and deed , of this bloody , barbarous , unheard of , and inhuman murther , for which i do suffer , surely knowing , and certainly believing no salvation can be had from the almighty god , the searcher of hearts , that at the houre of death dies with a ly in his mouth . therefore i desire your prayers ( for me being innocent ) and all other good christians prayers , that god almighty will be pleased to bring to light this bloody deed , not when we would have him , but at his one appointed time ( not our will , but his own be done . ) the other is , that you would be pleased to speak to your minister , or any other divine you know , to visit me , and get him to come as soon as you can ; and let me see you , for i have desired that no body may come at me , but your self , and cozen william , and some divines ; being i will not now discourse any persons relating to worldly affairs , but what may tend for the salvation of my poor soul : so recommending you to god , i rest the most wronged man , the most unhappy man , as to this world ; yet one of the most happy men through christ my saviour , in whom i trust for my eternal salvation . henry harrison . london , printed for randal tayler near stationers hall. the several tryals of sir henry slingsby, kt., john hewet, d.d., and john mordant, esq., for high treason, in westminster-hall together with the lord president's speech before the sentence of death was pronounced against the afore named sir h. slingsby and dr. hewet, being the of june, , at which time the said mr. mordant was by the court acquitted : as also the manner of their execution on tower-hill the of june following, with the substance of their speeches on the scaffold. slingsby, henry, sir, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing s ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing s estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the several tryals of sir henry slingsby, kt., john hewet, d.d., and john mordant, esq., for high treason, in westminster-hall together with the lord president's speech before the sentence of death was pronounced against the afore named sir h. slingsby and dr. hewet, being the of june, , at which time the said mr. mordant was by the court acquitted : as also the manner of their execution on tower-hill the of june following, with the substance of their speeches on the scaffold. slingsby, henry, sir, - . hewit, john, - . mordaunt, john mordaunt, viscount, - . [ ] p. [s.n.], london printed : . contains errors in pagination. imperfect: cropped, stained, with print show-through and loss of print. reproduction of original in the huntington library. eng trials (treason) -- england. great britain -- history -- commonwealth and protectorate, - . a r (wing s ). civilwar no the severall tryals of sir henry slingsby kt. john hewet d.d. and john mordant esq; for high treason in westminster-hall. together with the slingsby, henry, sir d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - jennifer kietzman sampled and proofread - jennifer kietzman text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the severall tryals of sir henry slingsby kt. john hewet d. d. and john mordant esq for high treason in westminster-hall , together with the lord president's speech before the sentence of death was pronounced against the afore named sir h. slingsby and dr. hewet , being the . of iune , . at which time the said mr mordant was by the court acquitted . as also the manner of their execution on tower hill , the . of june following , with the substance of their speeches on the scaffold . london . printed in the year , . the substance of what passed on tuesday the . of may . at the tryall of sir henry slingsby kt , in westminster-hall , &c. the high court being set , and the names of the commissioners being called , the serjeant at armes was commanded to fetch the prisoner to the bar. sir henry slingsby was brought accordingly to the bar. then proclamation made for silence , and the commission for tryal of the prisoner read . proclamation for silence again was made , then mr. attorney general prideaux exhibited a charge of high treason against sir henry slingsby the prisoner , which was read : the substance of which charge was as followeth , viz. that the town of kingston upon hull in the county of kingston upon hull in england , on the , of octob. . and ever since unto the day of the exhibiting of this charge , was , and hath been , and is yet a town belonging to this common-wealth , where there is a garrison , and a great part of the a●…y and forces belonging to this common wealth : that sir henry slingsby late of redhouse in the county of york knight , ●…nding and i●…ending to imb●…oil this common wealth in intestine ●…rs , the . of april last , and divers times since the . of octob. and before the said . of april last , as a ●…lse traytor and enemy then and yet to his highness oliver lord protector of th●…e nations , together wit●… one robert gardiner and edward chapman ; and with one william smith of the said county of york gentlemen , and divers others , did traiterously , advisedly and maliciously combine together , and plot and contrive to betray and yeild up the said garrison of hull unto charles stuart eldest son of the late king charles , ●…w an enemy to this common-wealth . that the said sir henry slingsby by like traiterous combination , the said . of april last , and divers times after the said . octob. . did traiterously and maliciously plot and contrive , and endeavour to stir up mutinies within the said garrison , to withdraw ralph waterhouse , iohn overton , geo. thompson &c. officers of the same from their ob●…dience to his highness oliver lord protector . that then and there , and at divers other times as well b●…fore as after the said . april 〈◊〉 , and after the said . octob. . ●…e the said sir h. slingsby did traiterously , advisedly and maliciously plot , contrive and endeavour to stir and raise up forces against oliver lord protector , and against the government of this commonwealth as the same is established , and to alter the same . that the said sir henry slingsby did traiterously , &c. then and there declare , publish and promote the said charles stuart to be king of england , scotland and ireland , and the dominions thereto belonging , and held correspondence with him . all th●…se things the said sir henry slingsby , at kingston upon hull aforesaid , did maliciously &c. carry on by conferring with the said officers how to eff●… the aforesaid treason , and encouraging the said officers thereunto . by promising to them and every of the●… rewards and summes of mo●…y ●…o joyn with him in the treason aforesaid , and by delivering to the said ralph waterhouse , one of the officers of the garrison , a certain instrument under seal , which the said sir h. slingsby said was from charles stuart , and did purport to be a commission from the said charles stuart , to him the said r. waterhouse to be governor of the castle . all which said treasons are contrary to the statute in that case made and provided . with which treasons the said attorney general , on behalf of the lord protector , &c. doth charge the said sir h. slingsby , and prays that the said sir h. sl. may be put to answer thereto , averring that the said sir h. slingsby is the person by name appointed by his highness the lord protector to be tried and proceeded against . signed , may . . edm. prideaux . lord president . thou here standest charged for high-treason ; this court requires that thou give a positive answer , whether guilty or not guilty . sir h. slingsby . i desire to have counsel assigned me . l. pres. there is matter of fact laid to your charge , which amounts to treason , and there is no law allowed in matters of fact . sir h. sl. there is also matter of law ; and i desire to be tryed by a jury , which is according to the law of the land . l. pres. we are all here your jury as well as your judges ; we are the number of two or three juries , and your jury is well known , for they are chosen by the parliament ; you are to plead to your indictment . sir h sl. i desire to know whether there can be any conviction , unless it be by confession ? l. pres. if you had looked upon the act of parliament , that would have told you ; it speaks of examination of witnesses , it speaks of your confession , and answer , and of your default ; and if you do not plead to it , will be very penal to you . sir h. sl. if it be by the laws of the land , that the trial should be by a jury ; i desire i may have that priviledge . l. pres. acts of parliament make justice and law , they are both ; they think fit to change the custom of trials that have been in former times , and all persons must submit to it : and the parliament hath thought fit to make this court both jury and judges ; and therefore i require that you answer , whether guilty or not guilty . sir h. sl. i desire that the act of parliament may be read , l. pres. you are before your jury and judges ; parliaments have great care of the rights of the people , and have appointed this court , and his highness hath appointed you to be tried by us , you ought therefore to plead to your indictment . sir h. sl. the law gives liberty in case of juries to the party accused , to make his exceptions against the jury , which he cannot do here , where you are both judge and jury . l. pres. if you have any particular exception to any man , you may make it ; you were sir of the parliament when this act was made sir h. sl. i was a prisoner at the same time . l. pres. although a prisoner , yet you are bound by act of parliament . mr phelps . clerk you have heard your charge read , and plea demanded ; the court again requires of you , that you give a positive answer , whether guilty or not ? sir h. sl. i am ( my lord ) of an opinion , ( though you may account it a paradox ) that i cannot trespass against your laws , because i did not submit to them l. pres. all the people of england must submit to the laws of england , to the authorities of england , all must submit to my lord protector and acts of parliament : we sit here by authority of his highness , by a commission under the great seal of england , and by authority of parliament , and you must submit to our authority . sir h. sl. the laws have been so uncertain with me , that i could not well know them , and when i was a prisoner i could not take notice of them , i could have no benefit by your laws , because that is no law to me which doth not give me interest and property to what i have ; it is the benefit of laws , that they do distinguish between meum and tuum ; but when you take all from me , in my case it is not so . mr attor . gen prideaux . he may enjoy as much benefit by the laws as any , if he have not for feited it , and i desire he may be put to answer . l. pres. the court again require you to plead to you indictment . sir h. sl. not guilty . mr phelps . your plea then is , that you are not guilty . to which , sir h. s. answered , yes . mr lichmore . mr. attorney general having exhibited a charge of high-treason against this gentleman , sir h. sl. the prisoner at the bar ; the charge doth set forth , that the town of kingston upon hull , octob. . . and ever since , to the time of exhibiting of the charge , was a town of this common-wealths ; and that within that town , in all that time , there is , and hath been a garrison , and part of the army of this common-wealth ; and during that time ralph waterhouse , john overton , george thompson , &c. were officers of the forces of that garrison . that sir h. slingsby , minding to imbroil the common-wealth in war , april . last , and divers other times since , octob. . . as a false traitor and enemy to his highness the lord protector , did plot contrive and endeavor to betray the said town and garrison to charles stuart , an enemy to this common-wealth . it sets forth further , that sir h. slingsby , the time and place aforesaid did contrive and endeavour to stir up mutinies among the souldiery of that garrison , and to raise forces against this common-wealth ; and that he did publish and declare the said charles stuart to be king of england , scotland , and ireland , &c. and hath held correspondence with him . and that he delivered to the said ralph waterhouse a certain instrument which he said was a commission from charles stuart : all which treasons are contrary to the form and effect of the act of parliament ; and the prisoner having pleaded not guilty , which plea is recorded , we are ready to prove him guilty , and ready to call our witnesses . mr. attor . gen. you have heard the charge and plea , not guilty , it rests upon us to prove it to you this gentleman himself ( i beleeve ) when he hath heard them particularly opened , will be convinced that of these acts he hath been guilty . it would not have been expected from him to have tasted of the mercy of this court : for had he had justice done formerly , he had not been to have answered this here . i do beleeve it was expected from those that did govern , to have got him off by mercy , not to take him off by justice ; but he ceaseth not to interpose on the behalf of charles stuart , and endeavoured to bring him in again , and had like to have withdrawn the faithfull officers of that garrison to betray their trust , if money would have done it , that was not wanting to be offered ; if preferment would have wrought upon them , that was proffered ; if hopes of higher preferment under charles stuart would ●…ave wrought upon them , it would have been done . but to our witnesses . ralph waterhouse sworn . mr. attor . gen. what discourse had you with sir h. slingsby touching the de●…vering up of hull ? mr. waterh i had several discourses with him . particularly , about the latter e●… of december last , being a hunting , sir h. slingsby's son came to me in the field , and told me his father presented his service to me , and gave me a book which i looked on about an hour after , and found it was a printed book ; at the beginning was a paper thus written , put this out with your finger , and then tell me whether rob. gardiner had not spoke to me to serve the king , &c. presently after i acquainted col smith , who advised me to discover if i could whether sir h. slingsby was carrying on any plot . i went to sir h. slingsby , and sir h. s. took me to the window side , and hugged and embraced me ; and asked me if robert gardiner had not spoke to me to serve the king : and then began with a great many good words , and said that one ( meaning his highness ) had put a disrespect upon me , and if i would i might right my self , with many other words ; and promised me a sum of money to secure the south-house for the service of the king . about a week after he sent the book again , and in the same leaf wrote a few lines more , which i also shewed to col smith ; he promised me l. in land or money here or elsewhere : i made many queries , and told him i thought it was to no purpose ; he told me that if that house were secured , in a little time he would bring an army to besiege hull , and then half our work would be done . he after sent me another paper which was to this purpose , ●…hat if the governor sought for him , he would give security for his peaceable living ; and said , if i would give him a piece , he would make it twenty if he did not procure me a commission from c. stuart within fourteen daies ; he said further , that a great party were in engaged in scotland . upon the second of april he delivered to me a commission , which he said was from the king , and the commission being read in court , the said mr. waterhouse averred it to be the same he received of sir henry slingsby , and which ran thus , c. r. charles by the grace of god ( with the old usual title , &c. ) to our right trusty and well-beloved maj. ralph waterhouse ; we do by these presents constitute and appoint you to be governor of the castle and two block-houses near hull , and to put such a garrison of horse and foot therein , as you shall judge necessary for the defence of the same ; and to command the said garrison as governor thereof , and to do all things necessary for the preservation of the said place . given at bruges , march . . sir h. slingsby also said to me , that he had spoken with capt. overton , and promised to furnish him with money to lay in provision , and engaged by a bond to repay such money , as i should lay out for the victualling of the south-house . and also read a letter from c. stuart running thus , i can never be enough sensible of your favors , &c. i demanded how the army should come ; he answered , that the duke of york had or men , that the king of spain would furnish them if there was a place of security , and asking him what way of correspondence he had with c. stuart , he said he had a way of having commissions from c. stuart which he would not discover . here sir . h. slingsby stood up and disowned any such expression . mr. at. gen. what officer were you mr. waterhouse ? mr waterh . i have the command of a company , and of the south-block-house . mr. at. gen. mr. waterhouse , what letter was that sir h. slingsby sent to his son ? mr. wat. the contents were thus , that harry would speak to the two men to be very importunate with the twelve . sir h. slingsby promised so many men . that he offered capt. overton l. to raise forty men . mr. at. gen. how many men did he tell you should be at paul near hull ? mr. wat. to march into hull . mr. at. gen. what men did he tell you andrew would raise ? mr. wat. he said andrew would raise or men when he pleased ; and that capt overton should have a deputation to command the castle under me , he said he had good hopes of col. smith , and that he had a com●…sion for him if he would accept of it . sir h. sl. this which is here spoken in seriousness , was then spoke in mirth , a meer discourse as those that are in good fellowship may have , and what i said or did was but in jest . l. pres there ought to be no good fellowship in treason . mr. wat. i never visited him but by col. smiths commission . sir h. slingsby according to his engagement upon receit of a piece gave me another commission running thus ; oliver lord protector , &c. took it again and burned it . mr. att. gen. sir henry , was it you that filled up that blank commission ? sir . h. sl. it is more then any man knows : but it is not the commission i gave waterhouse which is dated march , . capt. john overton sworn . mr. phelps , shewed him the commission dated . march , . mr. att. gen. did you see that commission delivered to waterhouse by sir h. slingsby ? capt. overton . yes , i did , he delivered it to him in the castle , about the second of april last . sir h. sl mr. overton , what date did that commission which i then delivered , bear . capt. overt . this is the same commission , and ( having it in his hand ) i here see it is dated . march , . sir h. sl. i deny that the commission i then delivered did bear that date . waterh . and overton . my lord , we are upon our oaths . c. overt . i saw sir h. give it to major waterhouse in his own chamber in the castle of hull , and maj. w. bid me read it , which i did . sir h. sl. was that commission which you read dated . march ? cap. overton reads the copy of it which he then wrote from the original , which agreed with this . sir h. sl. i deny that th●… commission then delivered was of that date . waterh . and c. over . both deny the altering of the date . sir h sl. maj waterhouse desired me to alter the date of the commission , and i scraped out april and the day , and put in march . capt. overton examined . mr. at gen. what treaty was between sir h. and you at hull ? are you an officer there ? c. ov. yes . mr. at. gen. how long have you been an officer there ? c. ov. about ten years . mr at. gen. what proceedings was there between sir h. and you ? what meetings had you ? &c. was he your prisoner ? c ov. he was my prisoner ; the first time he spake any thing to me was on febr. last , when he told me , he thought me the strictest man alive with prisoners , but n●…w would believe the contrary ; said , that i s●…arched a man of his for a letter , but afterwards to prevent me he gave his letter in a purse with some money to his landress who carried it into the town , and sent it away , and after that ( he told me ) i never found any letter . i told him if he wanted any thing necessary i would go to the governor about it ; he told me it was not much for tha●… , b●…t that i might very much befriend him . he wrote to me , that a colonel ( naming him ) was engaged 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the king , asking whether i knew my men were right for me , and particularized one clark , i told him he was right he asked me what i thought of l. to give them , i told him they did not use to have such great gratuities . this was febr. . . febr he asked me where the sallyport was , i told him it was twenty yards from the castle . he told me , some prisoners not long ago intended to make an escape that way , but were prevented , and asked me which way it entered into the castle , which way i could let in any men into the castle , that i should not want money ; whether i could tell how to victual the castle ; he would be glad if i could do it . he told me that the king kept his d●…signs so close that none knew of them , and that it was not known whether he wo●… land at hull or scarborough . . march . he asked me whether i continued my command , i told him i knew nothing to the contrary , to which he shewed much gladness ; he told me duke dassy was to bring a considerable party , but stai●… so long that the rest were gone . . march he asked me what news , and said that chapman had assured his son the town was too strong for the garrison , and asked me who i knew in the town to be right , i told him dw . chapman was not for the s●…ldiery . march . i told him , that his old master c. stuart was about to set sail with or men . he said , that the king was more private then to let any man know his design : but asked me , whether i was ready to receive him ? march . . sir h. slingsby being below in our chamber , told me that i had a fit opportunity to receive such men as might be right for me . i told him , i thought i could not have half my number . he told me , he was glad i would serve the king ; and said , that if he had any favour from the king , i should not want any thing : he told me he had assurance , that any that assisted the king , when he first came to kiss his mother earth , he would give them or l. that he would furnish me with money ; and desired that i would not shoot any great bullets at king charls's men when they were landing : and further told me , that if i would take a deputation to command under major waterhouse , he would procure it . on april . sir h s. told major waterhouse that he had a commission for him to be governor of hull , and i saw him deliver a parchment-commission to major waterhouse . mr. at. gen. if sir h. hath any thing to object , he may . sir h. sl. i see that i am trepan'd by these two fellows ; they have said that serously against me which was spoken in mirth between us ; i never sought to them , but they to me ; the commission was procured by no intercourse with any persons beyond the seas , but a blank which i had for four years together . nor had i any correspondence beyond sea to carry on any design here . lieutenant george thomson sworn . being asked what officer he was , he answered , i am a lieutenant to major waterhouse , i was desired to go and see sir h slingsby april , who told me that he had great confidence in me , i said to him , why ? ●…e told me he thought i had good thoughts of the king ; his son told me he heard the king was to co●…e in , and to ●…ring in a considerable army , but knew not when . next day i went again to sir h. and asked him if he would walk on the leads , which he did , and there i told him i had been pondering on the words he last spoke to me , who then hugging me ●…aid , i have a great deal of confidence in you , ther●… is a design in agitation to bring in the king with a considerable army , but he did not know how soon it would be , but 〈◊〉 me i should have notice of it , and said that the king had promised pardon to all officers but the lord protector and lord bradshaw . sir h sl. i confess such like discourses ; but — waterhouse spoke to me that i would speak to thomson to try whether he would be assistant , but i told him i would not , least he , should not accept it , and then turn him out of his place . waterhouse pressed me to go to thomson , and m waterhouse invited us to his house to dinner , after dinner be spoke to thomson to go with me on the leads to shew me the guns , we walked about , and came down agains then said waterhouse to me , did not you speak to thomson ? i said not : you had a good oportunity , said he . at last thomson came to me , and i had some discourse with him about it . l. pres. sir h. s. have you any thing else to say ? sir h. sl. no , my lord . then mr. mr serjeant maynard summed up the charge , plea and evidence , and eloquently set forth the fulness and clearness of the evidence with the heynousness of the oftence , and demanded the judgment of the court . mr. at. gen. i shall not trouble you with repetition , the matter being clearly laid open ; the place where this acting was , and where the design was laid , was , i may safely say , the most considerable place in england for charles stuart's design ; a place strongly seated and scituated and remote from this city , and had he prevailed there , as he endeavoured , it had not been peace with us that now are here : and truly my lord , i cannot but pitty those gentlemen that are thus drawn into designs which i am confident will never take ; and i am sor●…y that people should be so seduced as they are , for their seducers bring them to the gallows , and then laugh at them . and ( my lord ) i pitty this gentleman ( pointing at sir h. ) that those gray hairs should thus go to the grave ; i have no more to say , but crave the justice of this court . the serjeant at arms was commanded to take away the prisoner . proclamation for adjournment of the court into the painted chamber . after a little private debate in the painted chamber they adjourned till thursday next nine in the morning . thursday may . being appointed for the meeting of the same court , about ten of the clock they accordingly met in the painted chamber westminster ; where after about two hours private debate they adjourned till tuesday next , the first day of june . the substance of doctor hevvet's trial on tuesday the first day of june , . the serjeant at arms being commanded by the court to fetch the prisoners to the bar , dr. hewet was brought to the bar accordingly . after proclamation was made for silence , the lord president asked mr. attorney gen. what he had to say against the prisoner at the bar. mr. attorney gen. thereupon exhibited an impeachment of high treason against the prisoner , and desired it might be read , and prayed that the court will please to receive his answer thereunto . the charge was read by mr. phelps the clerk ; the effect of which was as followeth , viz. that john hewet late of the parish of gregorie's in the city of london , doctor of divinity , minding and intending to embroyl this common-wealth in new and intestine wars , the . of april now last past , and at divers times since the of october , which was in the year of our lord . and before the said . of april last past , as a false traitor and enemy to oliver then and yet lord protector of the common-wealth of england , scotland and ireland , and the dominions and territories thereunto belonging , and to the said common-wealth ; together with one trelawney late of london gent. henry bishop of lewis in sussex gent. and other their complices at the parish of gregorie's aforesaid , and at lewis in sussex , did traiterously , advisedly , and malicioufly plot , contrive , and endevour to stir up force , and levy war against the said oliver lord protector , and against the government of this common-wealth , as the same is now established , and to subvert and alter the same . and did also then and there , and at divers other times and places , as well before as after the said . day of april now last past , and after the said . of october , . traiterously , advisedly , and maliciously declare , publish , and promote charles stuart eldest son to the late king charles , to be king of england , scotland and ireland , and the dominions thereunto belonging : and did then and there traiterously , advisedly , and maliciously hold intelligence and correspondence with the said charles stuart . all which said treasons he the said john hewet at the parish of gregorie's in the said city of london , and also at lewis and elsewhere , did traiterously , advisedly , and maliciously declare at the times and places aforesaid , by conferring with john stapley and henry mallory how to effect the same ; and by encouraging the said john stapley and henry mallory thereunto , and by delivering commissions to them from the said charles stuart concerning the levying war against the said oliver lord protector of the common-wealth of england , scotland , and ireland , — all which said treasons are contrary to the statute in that case made and provided . with which said treasons committed and done , the said attorney gen. for and on the behalf of his highness the lord protector and the common-wealth , doth charge and impeach the said john hewet ; and for and on the behalf of the said oliver lord protector and the common-wealth prayeth that the said john hewet may be put to answer , that such trial , judgement , and proceedings may be had against him as to justice doth appertain . and the said attorney gen. doth averre that the said john hewet is the person by name appointed by his highness the lord protector to be examined and proceeded against according to the act . dr. hewet the prisoner sitting covered whilest his impeachment was reading , the lord president commanded his hat to be taken off ; which the doctor obser●…g took it off himself . then mr. phelps clerk to the high court address'd to the prisoner to this effect : mr. phelps . john hewet d. d. thou standest here charged of high treason : this court requires you to give your positive answer , whether guilty or not guilty . dr. hewet . my lord , is i have already misbehaved my self here , my error i●… the more pardonable , because i have not had any counsel ; and i●… dare not pre●… to have any knowledge in any faculty , especially in the law : i never did change my cassock into a jump ; i am better acquainted with a pulpit than a bar ; better read in st. austin than my lord coke , and in the fathers , than rastal's reports , or plowden's commentaries . in all my life i never studied any law-case till now ; that necessity that hath no law hath made me thus far to become a lawyer , as to think to plead ( not for my livelyhood , but ) for my life . god forgive them that have occasioned this unusual and unaccustomed 〈◊〉 , that hath put me into such a pulpit as i never saw before . and therefore ( my lord ) in as much as i have often heard that there are such niceties in the law that a man may be lost in the severity of it for a word spoken in meer simplicity , i shall crave that there may be nothing taken , in prejudice to my innocency , from words spoken in simplicity : and i hope you will please to grant me that . lord presid . dr. hewet , i am sorry , truly , very sorry , to see such an one as you in that place ; but you are impeached of high treason : all favour will be shewn you according to the rules of justice . i think you desire counsel . dr. hewet . no ( my lord ) it is first , that i , knowing nothing of the law , may have nothing ( simply spoken ) prejudice me : and that you will allow me counsel . l. presid . the court is counsel for you , your business is to plead to the indictment ; you are required by the court to answer whether guilty or not guilty . dr. h. my lord , you sit there as judge , i beseech you to let me know by what commission you sit th●…re . l. pres. dr. hewet , we sit here by a commission under the great seal of england , in pursuance of an act of parliament ; that 's our commission . dr. h. pray give me the favour to have the commission read , my lord . l. pres. d. h. we know our owne authority , it is not usual to read commissions to prisoners ; the laws of england and acts of parliament are to be submitted to . dr. h. i am not to own every person that will sit to judge me , therefore i desire to know by what commission you sit , and who are the judges , and then i shall say more . l. pres. those that are to judge you are very well known , you consented your self to the judges , we are all chosen by act of parliament , the parliament hath consented to it ; we are chosen judges , and are your judges by act of parliament . dr. h. my l. i must know the persons , whether they be all here ; i see but very few . l. pres. here be very m●…ny , and we have been all called this morning , as the course is , and we sit now as your judges . dr. h. under favour , my lord , as i remember , the commission by the act is directed to . and there are the lords commissioners of the great seal , with the lords of his highness treasury , and all the judges , and divers other persons are named in the act of parl. i do not see so many faces as are mentioned in that act . l. pres. dr. hewet , i must tell you the quorum is any seventeen , or more of them ; if we are here seventeen , or more , we are a quorum by that commission : we are here i believe forty or fifty . dr. h. my lord , with submission , the case is true , in 〈◊〉 the commissioners were but seventeen , and they all present , then they might hear and determine ; but if one were absent , they cannot my lord as i conceive . l. pres. you are a person of parts ; and therefore we may delight to hear you , but we must keep our selves to the business of the court : you are required by the court to answer the impeachment . dr. h. my lord , if you sit by the act , sit according to the act , and then i shall submit . it was resolved by all the judges of the kings bench in the . of eliz. in the earl of leicester's case , see plowden fol. &c. mr. att. gen. the doctor did profess his ignoranc●… in the laws , yet pretends more knowledge than the court : the court are here , and know themselves lawfully authorized to try you . dr. hewet , if you please to proceed to give your answer whether guilty or not , you will find the justice of the court to be according to the laws of england . dr. h. this learned gent. i know his face , though not his name ; he speaks according to worth , but i cannot answer him according to law , and therefore still plead ignorance of the law , but desire to be tryed according to law ; and i have given you a law-president , if you will go against it , i shall say no more . mr. att. g. this gent. hath it by tradition , not by his owne knowledge ; but the case he mentions cannot parallel this : the act of parliament saith , an hundred and fifty , or any seventeen ; here are three seventeens . mr. sol. ellis . i think the commission is directed to your lordships , or any seventeen : [ which commissioners , or any seventeen , &c. ] the meaning whereof is , that those seventeen , or more respectively , should hear , &c. there were several quorums for england , scotland and ireland : for england , for scotland , &c. that case out of plowden , differs clearly from this : for , if a commission be directed , and there be no quorum , then the commissioners must all certifie . we humbly conceive that if your lordships be here seventeen , or more , you are fully authorized to proceed . mr. att. g. in many cases you have a quorum of persons , such and such men : it 's true , here is no quorum of persons , but a quorum of the number ; and if there be a quorum of seventeen it is warrantable . dr. h. this learned gent. he is better able to speak what is law than i ; but under favour , and with submission , i do not think he may judge of the laws , or the other ( that spoke his private conception ) to interpret the meaning of the parliament . and ( my lord ) if your lordship please , i shall make this my humble appeal to the learned judges of the law ; that if they will say in this respect that this is a lawful judicature , i shall proceed . l. pres. you have heard the words of the act of parliament read , authority is given to the commissioners , or any seventeen or more of them : which said commissioners respectively ; that is , for england seventeen , or more of them ; and you have heard the judgement of the court upon that . that which you speak of in relation to my lord of leicester's case is true ; if a commission be directed to commissioners , and no quorum appointed , then all must certifie : but by the act of parliament , and the commission made in pursuance of it , the quorum is seventeen : but here are three quorums . dr. h. my lord , in as much as all the commissioners are named in that act , and that commission is according to the act , they are all commissionated to sit , & unless all sit the rest cannot try and examine , &c. and i shall refer it to the judges of the laws . l. pres. we did not call our selves to be your judges , by being named your judges by act of parliament , we have power to declare to you what the law is by that act of parliament , i have declared it . dr. h. my lord , if the quorum had been named , then it were somewhat : but it being directed to , or more , when more or are commissionated all ●…ust sit ; i refer it againe to the judges of the laws . l. pres. dr. hewet , what you say now , or what you say hereafter besides this , you have time to speak to , as to matter of law , after matter of fact hath been tryed ; if you plead to matter of fact , what you say to the court as to matter of law , we shal be ready to heare it , apply your selfe to the court in matter of fact . the court asks you whether guilty or not . dr. h. my lord , i must first know whether the court be a lawful judicature before i give imy defence . l. pres. dr. hewet , you have offered very much touching the jurisdiction of the court , in conclusion you must acquiesce ; i must put you up to plead , you know the danger if you doe not plead being required ; you stand mute and doe not plead , it is as equally dangerous to you as if you had confessed the crimes . dr. h. i am so highly sensible of the priviledges of an englishman , that both for the satisfaction of my own conscience , and all persons , that i would not willingly give up the liberties and priviledges of any english freeman to any body that demands it ; i am very loth that there should be any just imputation laid upon me , that i should seek a disturbance in point of selfe-interest to divide my selfe from the communion of those that are my fellow-freemen ; and i should , as i have always abhor'd to be both a schismatick from the church , and singular from the state . my lord , i am so concerned for the priviledges of an english freeman , and publick interest , that i should be loth to doe any thing towards the giving them up , that might make my heart ake . i shall desire it may be determined by the judges . l. presid . you speak of common friendship ; what is common friendship , but to be a friend to the publick government ? if you have been a friend to the government and peace of this nation , you need not fear to plead to the indictment : and therefore i require you to plead to it . dr. hewet . when ever you shall come to a particular examination of the business , it will not appear that i have been an enemy ; i desire that whereas there are many nic●…ties in the laws , i humbly crave the engagement of your honours , that there may not be any advantage taken . mr. at. g. god forbid . dr. h. my lord , i think i have not spoken any thing unreasonably , or against law , and therefore humbly ●…rave my former request . mr. at. g. if you please , the dr. knows that there must be a judgment in which we m●…st acquiesce : this is that judicature that calls you before them ; you sit by the highest authority of england , an act of parliament in the first place , a commission under the great seal in the second place , and a commission of his highness , against whom , of which the doctor is one ; i desire he may give an answer to the impeachment , that being done , we shall have liberty on both sides to speak to what is justice , and law , and fact ; if you are not guilty , be you assured that this court will not take your blood upon them , you have a very fair court . dr. h. this learned person speaks very fairly , it shall be far from me to question any act of a lawful parliament ; but under favour , as yet it doth not appear to me that you have by that act by which you sit , power to hear and determine concerning the matters of which i am charged ; i referre it , and appeal again and again ●…o the learned judges of the laws , even his highness judges . l. presid . and dr. h. the court hath had much patience in hearing of you thus long , you having not so much as owned their authority ; if you will not own us , we will own you ; therefore i require the clerk to enter it , that we have required you to plead . mr. phelps cl. john hewet , you here stand charged of high treason against his highness the lord protector , and the common-wealth ; the charge hath been read to you , the court have demanded whether guilty or not guilty , they again demand of you whether guilty or not guilty . d. h. my lord , i shall be very loth to do any thing to save my life , and forfeit a good conscience : and i shall not for my private interest give up the privileges of those that are equal freemen with my self : i am look'd upon in a double capacity , as a clergy-man , and as a common-wealths-man ; i should be very loth to be scandalous in either : and pray be pleased to do that justice to your selves as to vi●…dicate the legality of your judicature , and then i 'le proceed . mr. at. g. my lord , you was pleased to tell the doctor , that you will own him when he doth not own you , but , my lord , his flying in your faces , and taxing you thus is not to be endured ; i wish he would have that consideration of himself , that if he doth not own : your authority , you expect to be owned , and by it he will be supposed to be guilty of all those crimes that are laid to his charge , and by not pleading he doth confess them ; that will be an high scandal to mr. doctor ; therefore to vindicate your self , i desire you to answer . dr. h. this learned gent. hath urged it with a great deal of civility and respect to me , which i must own and thankfully acknowledge ; but ( my lord ) withal , i dare not for the saving of my self give up others , so many thousands of others , by my precedent , that might likewise be involved in the same condition that i am in ; therefore ( my lord ) let it appear that it is a lawful judicature , and i have done . mr. at. g. i besee●… mr. doctor to consider his case , he is not brought as a champion for the people of england , as he stands charged he appears to you to be contrary affected ; i humbly beg that he would be pleased to plead , that so his innocency may be clear'd . dr. h. my lord , i said before that i am no lawyer , i understand nothing of it , neither desire to be judge in my own cause ; but i do not desire likewise to be judged by every person that would sit to judge me , neither would i give up that right that belongs to an english man to every one that demands it , therefore i desire you to grant this petition , that you will make appear that you are a lawful judicature . i would rather die ten thousand times then i will be guilty of giving up my fellow-freemens liberties and priviledges . mr. at. g. my lord , some of his own co●…t have acknowledged the like authority before him ; but if mr. doctor be peremptory in this that he will not own your authority , and plead to his charge , i must do my duty , that is , humbly to pray the court , that if he refuse to answer , i must pray their judgment , and acquaint him with the words of the act ; which accordingly was read . so that , my lord , in default of answer , if mr. doctor will not plead to this , my lord i must thereupon pray that you will proceed according to the act , as in cases of high treason , which is very pen●…l . i have no more to say . dr. h. my lord , i suppose these learned gent. who are so learned in the laws will be cautious in what they do against law , and i hope they will remember what condemnation and execution besell trecilla in the of rich. . that there did misadvise the king to do such and such things , that is much like to , this case of mine : and withal i hope they will remember what befell the judges in the case of shipmoney in the time of the late king , and therefore i hope they will be cautious themselves in doing any thing that is contrary to law . l. presid . dr. h. you have heard the clause of the act of parliament read to you , whereby you may understand , either we must proceed upon your answer , or else to judgment upon your refusal ; if upon your answer you clear your innocency , then those freemen that you speak of may faithfully embrace you ; but if you will not answer , we must proceed to judgment ; i am sorry for your robe sake , but if you will not answer , you cannot acquit your self , you thereby confess it : therefore let me advise you for your robe sake to follow the best counsel , that is , to put your self upon that which prisoners must do : answer to it , guilty o●… not guilty . dr. h. my lord , i hope it is not the sense of the whole court that they should proceed against me , either to sentence or any other way , till first they clear themselves to me . mr. at. g. pray who is the judge ? you must clear your self to him . l. pres●… . if there be any here that are of another opinion , let him declare himself : dr. h. you lose your self mightily in saying this one thing so often , and we lose our time ; i require you again to plead . dr. h. my lord , i cannot speak of that too often that is so dear and precious to me and every person . mr. at. g. i can say no more but pray your justice . l. presid . doctor hewet , i am called upon by the court , because of your refusal to answer , but i pity you very much , and therefore desire once more the patience and favour of the court , that they would give you leave to answer ; therefore mr. doctor , that we may not record your standing mut●… and refusing to answer , i shall once more in favour to you require you to answer . clerk , stay your hand a while . dr. h. my lord , both the court and all these persons will thus clear me to the whole world , that i have referred my self and appealed to his highness judges of the law to resolve whether this be a lawful judicature ; this appeal is denied , therefore i must proceed to some other thing seeing you all deny me that . mr. ●…helpes cl. j. hewet d. d. you stand here charged on behalf of his highnes the lord protector , of treason against him and this common-wealth , you have heard the charge , the court hath several times demanded your answer , and you refuse ; they the third time require your answer whether guilty or not guilty . dr. h. pray my lord is there any indictment found against me by a crand jury , by which i am to be tryed ? for by the fifth and sixth of edward the sixt , all treasons are to be inquired into and presented by twelve men ; the commission by which you sit doth not declare any other way : i beseech you is there any other indictment ? l. pres. you have a very great grand jury , forty persons , and we have power upon a special act of parliament to give order for a charge to be brought in against you , and we have according to that power and authority given order for this charge to be brought in against you , and you are to answer to it . dr. h. my lord , with submission you are not a comp●…tent jury . mr. attorney gen. my lord , now it is the second part to the same tune ; i know there are many others upon the same string when this is resolved ; sir , this is the grand jury , the petty jury , and your judge ; they require you to give your answer , whether guilty or not guilty . d. h. my lord , this is likewise denyed me , i now humbly crave a copy of my charge , time to answer to it , and counsel assigned me . l. presid . for the copy of yòur charge it was never granted to any prisoner indicted for high treason ; for counsel , you are now upon matter of fact , whether guilty or not guilty . mr. att. g. i have a word to inform him , i would not press any thing against him which in my judgment i thought not legal , you have given him your resolution as to the jurisdiction , there is nothing now to say but guilty or not guilty ; he must bring himself to be a party or else nothing can be asked . dr. h. i think the prisoner cannot be charged and tryed on one and the same day , no more than a man can be endicted and tryed the same day , as in calway's reports : and this was declared to be law in the case of the portugal embassador's brother . mr. at. g. you are not upon your triall , you must plead and joyn issue , and then we will consider whether we will try you now or no ; yet there is many a man hath been brought to prison the same day , found the same day , and tryed the same day . dr. h. i desire a copy of my charge , if not that , i desire time to speake , and councell assigned me , which hath been the course of former times ; for counsell it hath been usually allowed , as in the case of humphry stafford in the time of henry the . and in the case of lilburn . baron nicholas , and serje . maynard were of counsell for major rolph , who indeavoured to poyson the late king : and for matter of law , it ought to be allowed , as in my lord cook — and dyer sixth book of his reports , fol. is of the sam●… opinion : arundell had counsel assigned him for murder , in matter of law . sol. ellis . for matter of fact it was never allowed ; but if he plead , and if any matter of law doe arise that 's doubtfull to the court , then the court if they doubt of it , assigne counsell ; but the prisoner must plead first to the matter of fact . for a man to be accused the same day , and tryed the same day , is no new thing : for counsell , if any thing arise in matter of law then it may be considered : the portugal embass. brother came , and was accused and tryed the same day . we shall humbly pray that he may plead guilty or not guilty ; if any matter of law arise your lordships may doe him justice . dr. h. my lord , with submission , this learned gent. hath understood me but in part ; my request was for counsell for matter of law in generall , as well as particular for matter of fact . i humbly conceive that there are severall acts of parliament that doe free me from this charge , and particularly the great charter of england ; for which i humbly crave i may have counsell assigned me . l. pres. you are now in generals , you speak of several acts of parliament , and you would have counsel to plead , counsel was never allowed in this case upon such a general desire ; many that stand about you may have a prejudice to you , and think you are loth to plead ; i have called upon you often : if we should once record the refusall , it would be very penall . i would advise you to plead to the indictment . d. h. my lord , since you have denyed me counsell , i shall desire to speake something in my own behalfe . mr. at. g this is a very ill president to the justice of england ; i suppose that you will allow him all favour , but the justice of england must be prefer'd against all persons whatsoever : the jurisdiction is setled to the satisfaction of the dr. himselfe ; if he will bring himselfe a party and aske any thing of you , that must be by pleading , till then ●…e can aske nothing . dr. h. my lord , the judicature is not yet clear'd to me , for the legality of it , and if you please to give a little patience i shall give you the reasons why . mr. at. g. i shall desire it may be no more thus . pre. i shall say no more to you , we must make our authority appear to you either by trying of you , or judging of you ; will you be try'd ? dr. h. my lord , the charge depends upon an act of parliament which was made about two years since , the members of which parliament were chosen by the people , yet notwithstanding one hundred and fifty of them were not permitted to sit — mr. at. g. my lord we must not suffer this , pray if he will not be otherwise satisfied i must require your strict justice . your words they are seditious : this shews the spirit of the man . dr. h. i hope you will have patience to heare me for vindication of my selfe , and satisfaction of my own conscience and all persons whatever ; and withall , for the clearing of your selves that you doe not bring blood upon your selves by taking that power that is not justifiable — mr. at. g. truly my lord this is insufferable ; mr. doctor hath had as much respect as ever any had . i have attended many , i never saw the like in my time ; you have had the patience to heare him oppose your selves , your authority , your persons , and to strike at the root of all . mr. doctor i would have you to carry your selfe with more respect . this shews that much of what is charged against him is true : if you will scorn the court say it positively . dr. h. my lord , i humbly submit my selfe to the laws of the land ; i shall not dispute acts of parliament , but i conceive ( if you will please to give me a little patience ) an house of commons is not of authority enough — l. pres. mr. doctor pray remember that text , he that seemeth to be religious and bridleth not his tongue , his religion is vain . will you plead or not ? dr. h. my lord , whilst i speak for the laws of the land this is not an evill speech . mr. at. g. my lord , if you please , i did receive your comands to prepare this charge against this doctor ; in obedience to you i have done it , not willingly against your person mr. doctor ; i have some others to proceed against , if you will please that mr. doctor may dispatch one way or other . i must pray your final sentence if you doe not plead immediately . dr. h. my lord , what i petitioned for before i doe again , that seeing you will not please to give me leave to speak either as to the priviledges of english men , nor as to the act , i desire time to speak to the charge , and counsell . l. pres. you have heard that i must require your answer ; you must plead guilty or not guilty . dr. h. hath your lordship assigned me counsel in matter of fact when matters of l●…w arise ? l. pres. we shall then take consideration of it , now is not a time . dr. h. my lord , i am in a great straight , i pray god assist me ; and i here appeale to almighty god and to all the world , that i doe against my soul and conscionce nothing that shall be to the prejudice of the priviledges of the laws of england ; if there shall be any thing in these proceedings that shall be to the disadvantage of others , my soul be clear of it , the guilt be upon others ; seeing i am necessitated upon this , and cannot have counsell assigned me for the judicature , for the legality of it , i refer●…ing my selfe to the judges of the land ; i durst refer my selfe to his highness●… own councell , that if they will say that this particular that i have urged , that this is a lawful judicature , i will go on . l. pres. i am required by the court , before i ●…nter your refus●…ll i require your answer . dr. h. i am in a great dispute , and i pray god direct me what to doe in this case , though i doe not at all dispute my own innocency , which i hope i shall clear , yet i could petition again ( though i am tedious to you , yet i can never importune enough ) to take into your thoughts your selves and posterity and all the people of england . l. pres. i shall desire , because you may see what i say comes from the act of parliament , i shall desire the words may be read to him , what is to be done if he refuse to answer . clerk read that clause . [ and for examination of witnesses upon oath ( which the said respective commissioners are hereby authorized to administer ) and thereupon , or upon confession of the party , or in defau't of such answer , to proceed to conviction and finall sentence , as in cases of high treason , and misprision of treason , according to justice and the merits of the cause ; and such final sentence to execute , or cause to be executed speedily and impartially . ] dr. h. my lord , this is a printed paper which is called an act of parliament — l. pres. i must take you off , you have been required to answer , often required , and having refused , in the name of the court i require the clerk to record it , and pray take away your prisoner . dr. h. my lord — court . take him away , take him away . the substance of mr. mordant's trial on tuesday the first day of june , . the serjeant at arms was commanded to bring john mordant esq to the bar , who was brought accordingly . l. pres. mr. attorney , what have you to say against the prisoner at the bar ? mr. att. g. my lord , i have prepared a charge of high treason against the gentleman at the bar , which i desire may be read . the substance of the impeachment . mr. phelps . john mordant esq stand at the bar , and hear your charge . a charge of high treason against john mordant of clement d●…es in the county of middls . esq as followeth , viz. that john mordant late of the parish of clement danes , in the said county of middls . esq minding and intending to embroil this common-wealth in new and intestine wars and seditions , on the . of april now last past , and at divers other days and times since the . of octob. . and before the said . of april last , as a false traitor and enemy to oliver , then and yet lord protector of the common-wealth of england , scotland and ireland , and the dominions thereto belonging , and to this common-wealth ; together with henry bishop late of parham in the county of sussex gent. hartgil baron , and francis mansel , and divers others their complices at the parish of clement danes aforesaid , and at divers other places , did traiterously , advisedly , and maliciously plot , contrive , and endevour to stir up and raise war against the said oliver , then and yet lord protector of this common-wealth , and against the government thereof , as the same was established , and to alter and subvert the same : and did also then and there , as well before as after the said . of april last past , and after the the . of octob. . traiterously , advisedly , and maliciously declare , publish , and promote charles stuart , eldest son of the late king charles , to be king of england , scotland , and ireland , &c. and did then and there traiterously , advisedly , and maliciously hold intelligence and corres●…ondence with the said charles stuart . all which said treason and treasons , he the said john mordant the said . of april last , and other the times and places aforesaid , and after the said . of octob. . at clement danes , and other places , did traiterously declare by overt act , that is to say , by conferring with j. stapley esq and henry mallory , and others , how to effect the same : and did then and there encourage the said j. stapley and h. mallory , and others thereunto : and did deliver commissions to several persons in the name of , and as from the said ch. s●…uart , concerning the raising of forces , and levying war against the said olive●… , then and yet l. prot. and against this common-wealth . all which said treason and treasons are contrary to the statute in that case made and provided . with which said treason and treasons , he the said attorney g. for and on the behalf of the said oliver then and yet l. pro. and on behalf of the said common-wealth , as aforesaid , doth charge and impeach the said j. mordant . and the said att. gen. prayeth , that he the said j. mordant may be put to answer : and that such proceedings , trial , and judgment may be had against the said mordant as is agreeable to law . and the said att. gen. doth averre that the said j. mordant is a person by name appointed by his highness and councel to be proceeded against . mr. i helps cl. john mordant esq thou standest here charged with high treason against his highness the l. protector and the common-wealth : you have heard the charge read ; the court demands your positive answer thereto , whether guilty or not guilty . mr. mord. my lord , i desire i may hear the commission read by which you sit . l. pres. you are impeached of high treason : we require your answer . mr. mord. i desire the commission may be read , and the commissioners names . l. pres. you are to be tryed by the laws of england , act of parliament , and commission under the great seal of england , in pursuance of that act . mr. mord. i claim it as my right , i am ignorant in law , i desire it may be read . l. pres. it is not granted to any . mr. mord. my lord , will you take away that liberty that we shall not know by what commission we are tryed , and who are our judges ? i desire i may not be made the first president . l. pres. it is visible who are your judges , they are named by act of parliament : we are your judges . mr. mord. my lord , if the act specifie any such thing that it may not be read , i have done : i desire it may be read , that i may have a legal and just proceeding . l. pres. the act of parliament doth not require it . mr. mord. the act doth not deny it . l. pres. you shall have all the privileges that may be ; but you must first plead . mr. mord. my lord , i demand this , to hear the commission read . mr. att. g. my lord , pray let him know what is done , to warn him , lest he fall into the same condemnation . there was one but a little before you that demanded the same thing , and the court hath ruled it otherwise , and he hath received his sentence . i tell you of it that you may beware , and know how to carry your self . if mr. mordant will be pleased to answer whether or no guilty of those crimes , then he shall have a fair trial , and full examination : if otherwise , the same sentence must be required as before ; that is , upon refusall , the judgement pronounced for high treason . mr. mord. my lord , i humbly crave the act may be read . mr. att. g. the act is publick ; the court are not to give you an account of their authority , or the way of their proceedings ; they require your answer . mr. mord. my lord , shall i not know by what law i am tryed , nor by what act , nor by what commission ? l. pres. you seem to be a young gentleman ; i wish rather you would plead not guilty , or make an ingenuous confession . mr. mord. my lord , this is the first time that i have been before any court in my life , i desire that my reason may be convinced ; either assigne me counsel to argue it with this learned councel , and if they convince my counsel i shall submit : or , if this councel will say , the law doth debar me the hearing of the commission and the act read to me , i shall refer it to the judges of the law , and by their opinions i will stand or fall . mr. att. g. my lord president , you have offered that gent. very seasonable advice , i wish he may be capable of it : and , in these debates , i wish he doth not lose those advantages that are really intended for him . for the court , it is by act of parl. and no judicature in engl. can require any account of their proceedings . mr. mord. my lord , pray give me leave to ask this question , whether there be any president for this ? mr. at. g. by way of advise i do acquaint you that there is no judicature in england superiour to this , but the parliament immediately ; you are here impeached of a very high crime , high treason , it may be a strain of youth , the first step to mercy is confession . mr. mordant . my lord , i have heard that the judges of the land are the best and proper expositors of the law , and if they declare that this is the sense of the act , i 'le submit to the court ; if the court will allow me counsel i shall submit if my counsel be convinced ; i desire to hear the commission read . mr. at. g. my lord , this gent. was a fellow-prisoner with one that went before him , he walks after the same steps , i wish he may not run into the same error ; these things were urged by dr. hewet , and the court hath ruled that their authority is sufficient , and therefore my lord be pleased that this gent. may plead . mr. mordant . i am overborn both for jury and counsel , i desire that my reason may be convinced , if this counsel will give it under their hands that this is law by the act of . if you will say under your hands that this is law that i must be excluded of jury and counsel , and that i must not know the commission by which i am tryed , i will proceed . l. pres. i am afraid you have received ill advise from others , possibly you know what is become of that prisoner that spake of counsel ; we cannot assign you counsel as to matter of fact ; the law and act of parliament have made us your judges , and therefore you are to plead . mr. mordant . my lord , i desire that that act may be read to know whether i am to be excluded of jury and counsel ; i re●…erre it to this counsel . mr. at. g. i doubt the gent. is in jest , we are here to attend by command of his highness the l. protector ; these gent. are all sworn by act of parliament : it is a little slighting of the court , to appeal from the court to the counsel ; but ( my lord ) i beseech you he may forbear to say he is overborn . you shall have justice done if you will plead , if not there was a president but now ; if you please to put your self upon the trial , you shall have a fair trial. mr. mordant . my lord , convince me by this act that i am to lose the right of jury ; i have not heard any reason why i must lo●…e it . mr. at. g. i do tell you the court hath given judgment just now in the like case . mr. mordant . i ask a president for this . mr. at. gen. i tell you a president , sir h. slingsby and dr. hewet . mr. mordant . is it a good president ? if any give an ill president , it is reason i should debate it my self . mr. at. gen. i humbly conceive that this court is your court , and you ought to plead it . mr. mord. my lord , i desire i may be heard ; the words are , that the respective commissioners , or the major part of them , are to meet , &c. i humbly conceive without the whole i cannot be tryed . l. president . all this that you ask of us now we have declared this morning already to one who was before you at the bar ; the quorum of this commission is seventeen or any more of them : we must require you again to plead . mr. mordant . my lord , i desire a little patience , the number of the commissioners is seventeen , i conceive that must be very much strained i●… reason that they ●…st try , because it relates to the respective commissioners ; several persons were allowed counsel , i humbly desire counsel . l. president . that is when there is matter of law , you have alledged nothing , you are now upon matter of fact . mr. mordant . my lord , my indictment is matter of law , and upon that i may sa●…ly demand counsel , i desire to have counsel as to my indictment . l. president . your reason and my reason and all reason must submit to the law : you are now upon matter of fact , the single question is , guilty or not guilty . mr. at. gen. my advise to you is , that you would put your self upon your tryal . mr. mordant . i am not convinced at all , but forced upon it , and it is a hard thing ; it is reason that my reason should be convinced , if this act doth say in any place that i must ●…ose these priviledges , or if the judges will declare it to be so , i will submit to it ; if ●…e judges will declare that 〈◊〉 must be tryed thus , god's will be done ; i desire to stand n●… fall by th●… laws . mr. sol. ellis . i will tel●…●…ou where his mistake is , he speaks of former trials , which we do not deny ; but ●…s gent. will agree that it is in the power of parliaments , by acts of parliament to alter those trials ; we conceive that this act of parliament hath determined thi●… very question : for , my lord , it is that you shall examine upon oath , and thereup●… proceed to conviction and final sentence , not by jury : and this act of parliament hath entrusted you to be both judge and jury ; all englishmen must submit to what the parliament hath done , and the parliament hath determined this question that you have power to examine upon oath , and thereupon to proceed to conviction , &c. if a jury was to do it , you were not to proceed to conviction ; this gent. sayes there is no president for it , but we say it was the same in queen eliz. time ; they proceeded to conviction and final sentence , when they proceeded against duke hamilton , lord capel , and holland ; did not the parliament approve of what they did in that case as just , honourable and lawful ? did not duke hamilton , did they not all petition to the house ? did not the parliament order execution upon some , and cleared others ? to say this is without president , when presidents are so frequent , i wonder that should be said . to that point of a jury , i must tell this gent. he speaks of a jury , but hath not put himself upon a trial ; after he hath pleaded not guilty , then it must be considered the manner of the proceeding ; but to come before he plead guilty or not guilty to desire a jury , this is a little to anticipate your judgment . mr. mordant . i do not shun to be tryed by the act of parliament , but referre my selfe to the judges , that those priviledges of the act may not be taken from me , mr. at. g. the parliament hath thought sit to go this way , and it is not to be disputed , they that live in this nation are not to dispute it : if that gent. will please to recollect himself , and not ( my lord ) thus expostulate and dispute with the court of justice , if he please to put himself upon a tryal , if he thinks himself innocent , i think it is best ; and if he refuse it , his sentence is from himself . mr. mordant . i do not ( my lord ) dispute the power of the court , but i desire my reason may be convinced , and that i may have counsel . l. pres. we are clearly of opinion , we have not power in this case to appoint any other jury , not to summon a jury , we our selves have taken on oath ; you would do well to plead mr. mordant . my lord , i have but little to say , and that is , that as that gent. said , it was referred to the court what jury i shall have , i desire ( my lord ) to know whether the court doth intend to try me by a jury . mr. sol. ellis . they do not . mr. mordant . is the court judge and jury ? mr. at. g. if you will deal ingenuously with the court , i think that is best . mr. mordant . seeing i am here overuled , though not convinced in my reason , i shall demur to the court , and plead not guilty . i desire a copy of my indictment , and time to plead . l. pres. it was never done ; for any indictment of high treason was never delivered to any prisoner . mr. mordant . i urge my lord cooke for authority , for a copy of my indictment . mr. phelph●…s . john mordant esquire , you stand here charged of high treason ; to this charge you plead not guilty , is this your plea ? mr. mordant . yes . mr. mordant . i beg ( my lord ) that my ignorance of the laws may not prejudice me , not understanding or knowing any thing of the law ; and this granted me , i shall address to my justification . mr. at. g. do you stand to your plea not guilty ? mr. mordant . yes . mr. litchmore . my lord , i shall shortly open the impeachment ; the attorney gen. hath exhibited a charge of high treason against john mordant esq viz. that he the said john mordant intending to embroile this nation in new and intestine wars the of april last past , and at divers times since the octob. together with henry bishop , hartgil baron , &c. at the parish of clem. danes in the county of middlesex , did traiterously , advisedly , and maliciously , plot , contrive and endeavour , first , to stir and raise force , and levy war against his highness the lord protector , and the common-wealth , to subvert and alter the government of the same . secondly , that he did traiterously , advisedly , and maliciously declare , publish and promote charles stuart to be king of england , scotland , and ireland . thirdly , that he did traiterously , advisedly and maliciously hold intelligence and correspondence with c. stuart , and that he did declare these treasons by overt act , that is to say , by conferring with john stapley , and henry mallory how to effect the same , and did deliver several commissions from c. stuart to several persons , and this contrary to the statute . to this charge of high treason the prisoner pleads not guilty ; we are ready ( my lord ) to call our witnesses to prove him guilty of these several crimes ; and with the leave of the court , we shall call our witnesses , mr. at. g. i wish mr. mordant had done this before , and made himself capable of more favour . mr. mordant then desired to have pen , ink and paper , which was granted him . john stapley and anthony stapley were then called . john stapley sworne . mr. at. g. we produce this gent. ( i suppose he is well known to the prisoner ) to prove the charge ; i desire he may declare what he knows . mr. at. g. what do you know concerning the discourses of mr. mordant with you , touching the bringing in of charles stunrt ? john stapley . i have been in mr. mordants company several times , and what i can say will not be much ; mr. mordant did once tell me there was such a design as the bringing in of the king , and he did ask me if i did not know of such a thing ; i told him no ; he was pleased to tell me somewhat of it : i asked him if he was engaged in it ; he told me he was not . mr. at. g. what did he tell you concerning his being entrusted by the king therein ? john stapley . he told me the king wrote to him , to speak to his friends that they would be ready to assist him when he should come into england with force , which he told me was with men ; this was the chief of all . mr. at. g. did he not say that he had commissions from the king ? john stapley . he did not tell me so , but i have heard him say others had had commissions , two other gent. in surrey . mr. at. g. did he not encourage you thereto ? what arguments did he use ? john stapley , he spoke to me of it several times . mr. at. g. after what manner ? j. stapley . onely in commendation of the thing ; i heard him say that if there were a necessity , surry folks would come into sussex to assist them . mr. at. g. who was present at any of these discourses ? j. stapley . there was none but him and my self . mr. at. g. at what place , and at what time ? j. stapley . near his own house at several times ; i have told you the main o●… the discourses . mr. mordant . mr. stapley , about what time was this ? j. stapley above a year since . mr. mordant . mr. stapley , at what place was the encouragement made ? mr. stap. i do not know what he means by encouragement , he onely told me of it . mr. mordant . i desire to know when i told you that i had received a letter to encourage my friends from beyond sea , and who was by . mr. stap. there was no body by . l. pres. about what time did he tell you of this letter ? mr. stap. about half a year since . l. pres. who was by ? mr. stap. no body my lord . mr. sol. ellis . did he tell you it was the king that wrote to him , and therefore it was just to assist him . mr. stap. i think i heard him say so , i cannot take my oath of it . l. pres. did he tell you what considerable persons were concerned ? mr. stap. i have heard him speak of some persons that were ingaged in this design , sir fran. vincent , and one brown ; he said that sir will . waller spake to him to speak to me . l. pres. when ? mr. stap. above a year since , it was since the parliament . mr. mordant . my lord , i do not know sir w. waller . anthony stapley sworn . mr. at. g. what discourse have you had with mr. mordant touching charles stuart ? a. stap. we were about a quarter of a yeare agoe at the halfe moon tavern in aldersgatestreet , at that time there was no discourse about the business at all . after that he was speaking to me about the times , losses of priviledges , great taxations , &c. wherein i agreed with him , and wished they might be better . i asked him if there was any way to help it ; he said yea , and said that charles stuart was intending for england , and that would be a fair opportunity to redresse all grievances . at birkshire house there he was pleased to enquire concerning the affairs of sussex , and in what preparation they were , in case the king of scots should land ; i told him i did not know , i had not been in the countrey lately , i did believe that there would not be an apearance suitable to his expectation : he told me something concerning surry , that there was a considerable strength there ready to assist us in sussex , and joyn with us when any such thing should happen ; he did say that he had delivered out four commissions , three for horse , and one for foot , but to whom i know not , i dare not sweare it , but it is to the best of my remembrance . mr. at. g. what discourse past between you at the halfe moon tavern in aldersgate street about march last ? a. stap. it was the day that the cavalier party were to depart the citie , there was captain mallory , my selfe , and this gentleman mr. mordant , and then he spoke again concerning sussex , that the king of scots coming was suddenly expected , and desire to know in what readinesse we were ; i told him i could not tell , but i did believe that things would be in as great a forwardnesse as the times would permit ; it was agreed upon that some of our countrey should meet mr. mordant at crawly in surry upon the tuesday following . mr. at. g. what was the end of your meeting ? a. stap. it was to consider further how things might be carried on , as to the businesse of surry and sussex , there was an expectation of the landing of charles stuart , and he did say that he heard charles stuart was in a readiness ; mr. mallory , my selfe , and mr. mordant , were to meet further to debate of things ; i understood it was for the businesse of the king , but it was not positively so expressed ; he asked me how things went on in sussex ; i told him i could not satisfie him : therefore we told him there should some of our countrey meet him at crawly to give him an account ; he said there was a considerable force , but i never heard him speak of any number of horse or foot in surry . mr. mord. mr. staply , i desire to know when i spoke to you of this . a. stap. my lord , it was , i cannot tell the dayes , but it was suddenly after the breaking up of the parliament , all the discourses were since the breaking up of the last parliament . mr. mord. i desire to know where i spoke this , and who was by . a. stap. as i take it the first discourse was at long acre , but no body by . mr. mord. i desire to know the time when i met him at the halfe moon tavern . a. stap. it was the day set for the departing of the cavalier party out of town . mr. mord. i desire to know who was by . a. stap. captain mallory . mr. mord. i desire to know whether i did meet at the place appointed . a. stap. my brother and mr. mallory did not meet him , because my brother was sent for to whitehall . mr. mord. i desire to know the witnesses to all he says . a. stap. it was all private , only once at the halfe moon tavern with captain mallory . mr. at. g. my lord , there was mention made of one captain mallory whom we did intend to have as a witnesse , he was committed upon this design , being privy to it ; it hath so fallen out that he is lately escaped ; i desire that mr. serjeant or armes , major ellison , thomas tatlock , and william capput may be sworn . all four sworn . mr. at. g. we doe produce these witnesses for this end . captain mallory was a prisoner , and we did intend to make use of him here , but it hath so fallen out that his guilty conscience hath made him to fly ; aske these concerning his being custody , and endeavour of escape . maj. ellis . my lord , captain mallory was in custody , and a guard constantly set upon him , which guard was relieved every twenty four hours ; the manner of his escape i only had by relation , we have used all endeavours to have found him since he is escaped , we did that night send presently to southwark to inns there , and laid wait for him , and sent to captain mallory's brother-in-law , where he formerly lay , examined him , but all in vain ; where we had any intimation of any relation of his , we did send to search for him . serj. dan. my lord , upon the twenty eigth of may last since the escape of cap. mallory i received a warrant from the councel commanding me to use all diligence for apprehending of cap. mallory ; i have accordingly endeavoured it , not knowing his relations , i did not speak to them : i have used all means i could , but cannot find him . tho. tatlock . my lord , cap. mallory went away about nine a clock at night , he went away in a black suit and cloak . wil. capput . all that i know ( my lord ) is that cap. mallory was a prisoner , and changed his habit and hair , went away and left money in the window to pay for his lodging . mr. at. g. my lord , the intention is to shew you cap. mallory was a prisoner , is escaped , and what means have been used for his apprehension ; officer pray swear mr. scobell . mr. scobel sworn . mr. at. g. my lord , mr. scobell was one of the justices of peace that took cap. mallory's examination upon oath . mr. scobell . my lord , cap. mallory gave in information upon oath before my lord gosse and my selfe upon the twenty first of aprill last , and upon his oath did inform us , that about the beginning of march last cap. an. staply and himselfe being at the halfe moon tavern , joh. mordant esq. being upon the exchange was sent for to mr staply , and that he came ; thereupon mr. staply presented cap. mallory to mr. mordant as a gentleman that was interested in charles stuarts designe , together with mr. staply that was his brother ; he said that by that brother he meant joh. staply esq. thereupon he informed us that mr. mordant did demand of cap. mallory in what readinesse the horse that were to be raised in sussex were : mr. mallory informed us that to that he returned an answer , that they were not in so good a posture as he did believe mr. joh. staply had represented to mr. mordant , but doubted that it would fall much short : mallory told us that at that answer mr. mordant did much wonder , because he said charles stuart the king was in a very good posture , and that there was a daily expectation of his coming over with forces , and that thereupon mr. mordant did desire that there might be a meeting in some convenient place beeween him and mr. staply , and such others of that county of sussex as should be thought fit . my lord , it was ( he said ) to this end that there they might conferr together , and understand how the affairs stood in reference to the counties of sussex and surry , that they might the better assist each other in the intended insurrection ; he did inform us ( my lord ) that accordingly it was agreed there should be a meeting upon the tuesday following at crawly , and in order thereunto he said that mr. an. staply and himselfe did speak with mr. joh. staply to have a meeting accordingly at crawly upon the tuesday following , and they did agree to it : he said that they should meet with mr. mordant at crawly , but in the mean time mr. joh. staply being sent for to whitehall that meeting was prevented . my lord , this is all . l. pres. mr. mordant , would you aske mr. scobel any question ? m. scobel . i suppose that mr. mordant's asking me any question will not advantage him , or that my testimony is disadvantageous to him ; for all that i have spoke was the same that mallory declared unto me and my lord gosse as justices of the peace . mr. mord. my lord , i neither know this gentleman nor mr. mallory upon my oath . mr. at. g. mr. an. staply , were you with cap. mallory and mr. mordant at dinner together at the halfe moon ? mr. a. stap. my lord , cap. mallory was once there , but not at dinner . mr. sol. ellis . the attorney geueral hath exhibited a charge of high treason against the prisoner at the barr , that was , to raise force against the government , and publish charles stuart to be king , and held correspondence with him . mr. mord. my lord , you have heard the witnesses , the first gentleman mr. joh. staply , he was pleased to urge against me , that i said charles stuart writ to me to engage my friends , but said not that he saw the letter , or that any one was by : he did not name the time or place but at randome , but that i said so ; being asked about commissions , he denyes that i told him i either had commissions , or delivered any ; he says i gave him encouragement to this engagement , or what he cals it i know not , but , he doth not say what kind of encouragement it was : he doth not say i promised him money , or preferment ; he says he heard i engaged two other gentlemen , sir francis vincent and col. brown ; he was asked , if any was by at these discourses , he said none was by : my lord this is a single evidence ; he says it was a year or more since , he says i said i was intrusted by charles stuart about the latter end of the last winter . for mr. an. staply , he urges against me , that at his lodging i discoursed with him , that the way to helpe us was to bring in charles stuart ; he says that i said in surry was a considerable strength to joyn with charles stuart , which if true might prove troublesome to me , but i have not been in surry this year and a halfe : he says , only to the best of his remembrance , i said i had three or four commissions , but he says it is to the best of his remembrance , but doth not say he saw the commissions , and will not swear whether they were for horse or foot : he says at the half-moon i spake with him and mallory ; who that is i have already spoke to : he says i did not name the number of any forces that were ready : he says that we agreed to meet on the tuesday following at crawly with mr. mallory , but says that i was not there . my lord , i doe not know that place , he says it is in our country , but it is not : he says it was his brother joh. staply that was to meet me : he says it was not about any positive thing why i was to meet there , but in generall , to carry on things about the intended design : he says not that i said it , but that i said i heard that charles stuart would land with a considerable party : he says it was to debate things in generall , he said it was not said about charles stuart , that he was not mentioned , but he supposed it to be so : he says positively that i never spake of any number of horse or foot , or any thing of that kind , i asked him when i first spoke of this ; he returned no time , would not say any positive time , but said all was since the breaking up of the parliament : i asked him who was by , he said no body , all was private : he says the time when we were at the halfe moon was near the time that those that served the late king were banished ; he says positively i did not meet at the place appointed , and he gives the reason , a very insufficient one , because his brother was sent for up ; that could not hinder me : he waves his own meeting : he says all was private ; i submit it all to this honourable court . mr. sol. ellis . the charge is for levying of war to alter the government , and embroyle us again in a new war ; to which he pleads not guilty : for the proof of this we have offered to you witnesses ; i shall take them in order as the gentleman did at the barr. john staply said mr. mordant said the king writ to him to encourage and engage his friends to assist him at his coming ; but says not the time when this was done : he says he did not see the letter , but says mr. mordant told him he had a letter , all the discourses ( because he says there was no time ) it agrees that they were since the tenth of october , and so it is clear within this act , and within your jurisdiction . now see how it was carried on ; after he had told him this , how doth he encourage him in his telling him the justice of the cause ; the persons engaged therein , and of sir william waller . then ( my lord ) he told them if the forces of sussex were not sufficient , that the surry forces would come to assist them for the coming in of charles stuar●… : this both john and anth●…ny staply . so that we conceive under favour that joh. staply and an. staply doe agree in most of the circumstances . an. staply says that mr. mordant came to him , tels him there were great grievances ; i , says he , but how shall it be remedied ? tels him that charles stuart intended to come to england with a great force , which would redresse them : he asked him how the businesse was in sussex ; he said it was not in so good a posture as he expected : he said that surry forces should joyn with sussex . my lord , i leave it nakedly to you , if you find this to be true , we submit it to you , and mr at. g. will pray what his place requires . mr. at g. you have heard the business , this gentleman hath interposed himselfe where he was not called , it is a happiness this business was discovered : upon this evidence : i leave it to your justice , and as you shall judge i shall say more . mr. mord. my lord , i will speake to you very short , it is this ; that to all this though it be urged against me by the ablest men in the land , yet there is but one witnesse in a manner , and that differing in many circumstances — here he was interrupted . my lord , i leave it to you , i remit my life into your hands , resting and believing your lordsh●●● will deale with me as one of this nation , an english freeman . i leave it to you , and doe submit . l. pres. withdraw th●… 〈◊〉 . proclamation to adjourn into the painted chamber . after a little debate in the painted chamber , they adjourned till the morrow the second of june . june . the lords comissioners met in the painted chamber about to in the morning and there continued till about a clock afternoon , and th●…n adjourned into westminster hall , where proclamation being made , the names of the lords commissioners being read , mr. serj. was commanded to bring dr. hewet , sir h. slingsby and mr. mordant to the barr. proclamation for silence was made . mr. phelps . si. h. s. stand at the barr , and heare what the court hath to say to you . mr. at. g. my lord , as for sir h. slingsby and mr. mordant , you have heard the impeachment read , and their pleas ; i have given in the evidence , i pray your judgment as to them : as for the other , you have heard the impeachment , and no defence ; i pray your justice . l. pres. and sir h. s. knight , thou hast been impeached on the behalfe of the lord protector and this common-wealth of high treason to which thou hast pleaded not guilty , which the court hath taken into consideration ; what hast thou to say further , why this court should not proceed to judgement ? s. h. sl. my lord , i humbly desire i may be try'd by a jury , for i must say you are my enemies , ( pardon the expression ; ) if not so , why did you sequester me , and sell my whole estate ? and why did you deny me the act of oblivion ? there is no man would willingly appeale to his adversaries ; there are some among you that have been instrumental in my sequestration , and in the selling of my estate , for which they gave me no reason but this , that i would not compound , when i thought not fit so to doe , when there was no establishment or setled peace ; if i had compounded , i had not been sure whether i might not have compoun●…ed over again ; my estate hath been sequestred , and sold ; now to be my judge and jury . i humbly pray , being a commoner , i may be try'd by commoners . l. pres. and s. h. sl. i am not to heare you as to any of these things , ( you have pleaded already ) this is not a time of pleading , but a time of judgment ; therefore i must require your silence , and heare me a few words . s. h. sl. i am really , &c. the lord presidents speech . sir henry slingsby , i am really and truly afflicted for your sad condition , but when i consider the nature of your offence , with the circumstances and aggravations of your treason committed ; when i consider your person ; and that such a person as you are , should be instrumental in so detestable a conspiracy , and when i think of that judgement that must be given against you , methinks you are one of the saddest spectacles that ever i beheld in all my days , i beseech god that you may seriously lay it to your heart , with sorrow and repentance , and that you may be more sensible of what you have done , then of what you are to suffer . sir , was it not a great aggravation of the sins of the egyptians , that when god had declared himself by so many signs and wonders on the behalf of the israelites , that yet notwithstanding they would still pursue moses and israel ? was not this a great aggravation of their sin ? who is so great a stranger in this nation as to be ignorant what god hath done amongst us , by a series of wonderful providences so many years together against that very party who are still hatching of treasons and rebellions amongst us ? it grieves my very soul to think of it , that after so many signal providences , wherein god seems to declare himself ( as it were by signs and wonders ) that your heart should be still hardened , i may say , more hardned then the very hearts of the egyptians , for they at length did not only see , but but confessed that the lord sought against them ; but you , o that you would confess , and give glory to god . you cannot chuse but 〈◊〉 that the lord fights against you , that the stars in their courses ●…ght against you , and yet you will not see , you will not confess , until destruction over-takes you . this is a sad lamentation , and i beseech god that you may 〈◊〉 consider it . sir , if the signal and the wonderful providences or god will not deter you , yet methinks national consi●…rations should 〈◊〉 you from such a treason as this is : charls stuart is in 〈◊〉 with spain against england , he is in confederacy with that great popish int●…t . is it imaginable that an englishman , that a protestant should a●…st ●…uch a 〈◊〉 as this is , yet that which is not imaginable in it 〈◊〉 , is h●… 〈◊〉 and evidently proved ●…ore us . sir h. slingby , there are three witnesses , 〈◊〉 , or waterhouse , capt. overton , and li●…ut . thompson ; two of them full in evidence as to every charge against you , and three of them as to ●…ome of the charges ; and besides your own confession at the bar full in proof against you . did it not clearly appear in proof before us , that you promoted c. s●… to be king o●…england ? did it not clearly appear before us , that you endeavoured to betray the garri●…on of hull to c. stuart ? did it not likewise clearly appear before us , that you endeavoured to withdraw the officers and some of the soldiers of that garr●…●…rom their o●…edience to his highness , and to make a mutiny in that garri●…on , and all the circumstances did clearly appear ? was it not proved before us , that you offered a commi●…on to major waterhouse , and promised him a commi●…on in the ●…rst place , and a second to capt. overton , and a deputation to the third ? and what you promised , did you not make it good ? did you not with your own hand off●…r a commission sealed , and said it was from c. s. and did you not only encourag●… him , by telling him that he was coming into england with a considerable force ; but did you not pr●…mise also , that upon his landing , l . should be paid to maj. waterhouse ? all these things were clearly proved before us . sir , what said you to this proof ? you confessed upon the matt●…r a●…l , in effect all ; but only some things you said by way o●… excuse , and i shall truly relate them all . all you did , you told us was but in jest . what ( sir ) if tho●… discontented english that complied with spain in q. eliz. days in . had said they had been in ●…st ; what would you have thought of that , sir ? what if those ●…uited papists that would have blown up the parliament-house upon the . of nov●…mb . with barr●…ls of gunpowder , had said that they had brought in those barr●…ls in jest ; what would you have thought of it ? sir , be not deceived ; as a man sows , so shall he reap : you have ●…owed treason and reb●…llion , and you are now come to reap the fruit of it . and sir , you told me you did not own the government , you were a prisoner and therefore could not be bound by the laws of that government . sir , doth not every englishman owe a natural allegiance to the supreme magistrate of england ? is not every englishman , whether in prison , or out of prison , bound by the laws of england ? sir , if you own not the government of england , that is an offence in it self , a great offence , and would you make an offence against the government to be an excuse , or justification for treason ? the last thing you said was this , you told us you were trepan'd into it , sir , did not you your self , of your self promise a commis●…on to maj●…r waterhouse , did you not o●… your self offer pound to be paid assoon as c s. landed upon english ground . i shall name those worthy gentlemen for ho●…ors sake to them , that had a hand in this discovery it was that prudent and faithfull governor of hull . col. smith , that had a hand in it . there was those worthy and faithfull commanders , who were here in court , maj. waterhouse , capt. overton , and lievt. thompson . sir , these faithfull and worthy gentlemen have carried themselves in this business , like the man of understanding , that solomon speaks of . i have done , only i would say one word to you , because i hear you are a protestant , i would only ask you this question , what think you , would have become of the protestant interest , of the protestants of england , scotland , and ireland ; if you had had your will , if charls stuart had come in ; if you had ●…ut time ( but the lord knows you have not time ) to look over the records of england , to look over the declarations of parliament since . if you could remember it sir , it would tell you what family it was that betrayed the protestants in france , when roch●…l was taken ; what family it was that betrayed the protestants in germany , and in the palatinate , vvhen a peace was made with spain without consent of parliament . what could you think of that family th●…r did tolerate popery for a match with spain ? what then would that family have done , if it could have gained them england , scotland & ireland ? and now sir , but one word more to you as you are an english-man : i beseech you consider what would have become of this nation , if you had had your will ; you had brought a new civil war upon england at the least . i cannot think of a new civil war upon england , but i think of desolation upon desolation to this poor nation , &c. i have but one word to say to dr. hewet : and sir , when i look upon you as a minister , i must confess i do not know how to speak to you , because it has always been my way to speak to men of your profession , to ministers , i never spake to them but as a childe speaks to his father : such reverence and such regard i bear to their office . but to speak so to a minister , as a judge speaks to a traytor , i must confess i know not how to do it . but sir , there must be words spoken to you , though i do not speak them , and not onely to you as a ttaytor , but a traytor in the highest degree ; not as a traytor ( as you are intituled , for endeavoring to levy a new war , and to bring desolation and a war in this nation ) but such an one as should rather die a traytor then own the authority of the nation . but sir , i know not how to speak to you , and therefore the ●…ecord must speak to you ; and i my self will not any further . i have now a word to speak to you mr. mordant , god hath appeared in justice , and god doth appear in mercy ; as the lord is just to them , so he is exceeding merciful to you ; and i may say to you , that god appears to you at this time , as he speaks to sinners in jesus christ ; for sir , he doth clear sinners in christ jesus , even when they are guilty , and so god cleareth you : i will not say you are guilty , but ask your own conscience whether you are or no●… . sir bless god as long as you live , and bless my lord protector , by whose authority you are clered . sir i speak no more , but i beseech you to speak to god . and now let me add this word to those two gentlemen . sirs , when i have done speaking , i shall never have done praying for you , as long as you are alive ; that is the last thing i must say to you : and now let the judgment of the court be read . thereupon the clerk read the judgment and sentence of the court against sir h. slinsby kr. which was as followeth . that the said sir henry slingsby as a false traytor to his said highness the lord protector , and this commonwealth , shall be conveyed back again to the tower of london , and fr●…m thence through the middle of the city of london , directly shall be drawn unto the gallows of tibourn , and upon the said gallows there shall be hanged , and being alive , shall be cut down to the ground , and his entrails taken out of his belly , and he living , be burnt before him ; and that his head shall be cut off , and that his body shall be divided into four quarters , and that ●…is head and quarers shall be placed where his highness the lord protector shall be pleased to ●…ssign . in the next place , the same judgment and sentence of the court was read against dr. hewet being ingrost in like manner . this being done , the judgment of the court was declared concerning mr. mordant , whis ( in short ) was , that upon consideration of the whole matter ; in reference to the charge against him , and his plea thereunto , they did adjudge him , not guilty . and so the prisoners were dismist . proclamation being made , the court adjourned back to the painted chamber , where they ordered the execution of the sentence upon sir henry slingsby and dr. hewet , to be on saturday next . and warrants are issued out to the sheriffs of london to see execution done accordingly . then the court adjourned it self till thursday the tenth instant . notwithstanding the former sentence passed by the high court , yet his highness being informed , that dr. hewet , prisoner in the tower of london , who stand attainted of high treason , before the commissioners appointed by act of parliament , for levying war against his highness and the common-wealth , had judgment to be hanged , drawn and quartered at tibourn this instant saturday , his highness was graciously pleased , upon humble suit made , to reprieve him till tuesday the eighth insiant , at which time he is to be executed on tower-hil , by severing his head from his body ; and his highness pleasure is , that the judgment shall be remitted . the like favor also was extended to sir henry slingsby , who is to suffer the same day , in the same place . the manner of the execution of sir henry slingsby on tuesday the . of june , . with the substance of his speech before his death . about eleven of the clock sir henry slingsby was brought from the tower to the scaffold on tower-hill ; whither being come , hee fell upon his knees , and for a short space prayed privately . then standing up , he did in a short speech , and with a very low voyce , address himself to that noble gentleman mr. sheriff robinson , telling him that what he had to say he would speak to him ; which was to this purpose : that he had received a sentence to die , upon account of his endevouring to betray the garrison of hull : but said , all that he did in that business he was drawn into by others . that the officers of that garrison did believe he had some greater designe in hand , and therefore they would needs pump him to the bottome : but what he spoke to them in private was brought into evidence against him : he likewise said , that he did no more than any person would have done that was so brought on . that he had made many applications ( by his friends ) for a reprieve , but found his highness was inexorable . he did confess that he did deliver a commission ( as it was charged against him : ) but said , that it was an old commission , and what he meant was well known to himself ; but what construction others had made of it might appear by his present condition . he discovered little sense of sorrow , or fear of death ; but said , he was ready to submit , or words to like purpose . then he addressed himself to private prayer again ; and kneeling down to the block he prayed privately for a short space : then laid his head upon the block , and at the signe given , the executioner severed his head from his body at one blow : and his friends put his body into a coffin , and removed it into a close coach prepared neer the place . the manner of the execution of john hewet , d. d. on the same scaffold , on tuesday the same . of june . with the substance of his speech before his death . as soon as sir henry slingsby's body was removed as is aforesaid , dr. hewet was brought upon the scaffold , whither being come ( together with dr. wild , dr. warm●…stry , and another divine ) he fell upon his knees , and prayed privately for the space of a quarter of an hour ; after that he prayed audibly for a good space . after which prayer he addressed himself to the people in a speech which continued above the space of an hour ; the substance of which speech was as followeth . that he was become a publick spectacle to men and angels , and that he hoped the omniscient god was then beholding him with much pity and compassion , the rather because he came hither to bear witness to the truth , for which end he came into the world , both as a common christian and as a minister , for wich dignity he blessed the name of god . that it seemed strange to him that he pleading for the lawes and customes of the land , should dye by those that should also stand for them . that he had rather dye many deaths then betray his fellow freemen to the inconveniences of a subjection to their wills that had condemned him to death . that although he had no knowledge of the lawes , yet he had instruction from the learned in that faculty , and had accordingly urged severall cases , and that he had made his appeal to the learned in the law , to the judges , and to his highnesse own councell . that through his ignorance in the customes and formalities of courts , he was taken in . defaults , but that when he would have pleaded , and resolved so to do , he was taken from the barr. that he did the next day petition the court twice , subscribing his name thereunto , to be admitted to plead ; but the title of the court being mis-taken in the one , and a word left out in the other , it was taken for an affront or contempt to the court , and that his answer was his sentence . he prayed god to forgive those that adjudged him to dye , taking advantage of his ignorance . that at the beginning of his tryall there was a seeming consent that nothing should be taken to his prejudice through his ignorance in the nicety of the law ; but heartily prayed god to forgive 〈◊〉 and desired that even those that shed his blood might have the blood of chri●… shed for them . he acknowledged himself to be a 〈◊〉 of the holy 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 church , which he said was the church of england , which church he averred was for doctrine and discipline , ( till the l●…●…d r●…ion ) more divine and apostolicall then any other doctrine or church in the world . he made confession of his faith negatively , and affirmatively ; neg●…tively that he did abhor all sects , schismes , &c. in religion : affirm●…tively , that as he did hold communion with , so he did love and honor all christians , that lov'd the same lord jesus in sincerity . that he did hope for salvation through the merits of christ jesus onely , although unto faith good works are necessary , not meritorious . touching , the treasonable design wherewith he was charged , he said that he hoped that his conversation had been such that none would imagine he should intermeddle in such an action , and hoped that none were so uncharitable as to believe he had knowledg of that design . he declared a partic●…ar abhorrency unto the firing of the city , professing that if he had known of such a design he should have been the fi●…st discoverer . that he never saw the marquesse of ormond in his life . and touching the report of his being at bruges , &c. he averred that he had not been miles out of london these . yeares last past . that he knew the names , but never saw the faces of barrow nor bishop , persons with whom he was charged to hold corespondency . he remembred that his highnesse told him he was like a flaming torch in the midst of a sheaf of corn : but said it was very uncharitably done of them that so irritated his highnesse against him ; but prayed the god of mercy to pardon and forgive them all . thus ( but more largely ) having spoken to the people , he told them he would after the manner of our saviour , ( who when he was to be taken from his disciples , blessed them ) pray for them , which he did accordingly for a good space with much earne●…nesse and piety . after this , he joyned in publick prayer with dr. wild , and dr. warmestry , he all the while lying flat upon his breast . then he addressed himself to private prayer , wherein he continued a certain time . after this he prepared himself for the block , and with a black ribbon bound over his eyes , lying with his breast o're the block . he prayed again for a short while . then laid his neck upon the block , and after some short and private ejaculations , the executioner ( having notice that he was ready ) at one blow severed his head from his body ; which was also put into a coffin , and conveyed away by his friends . the confluence of people of all sorts to behold these executions was very vast , the like to which hath not been observed . finis . treason and murther discovered being a true and perfect relation of the tryal & condemnation of james alsop the father, and william alsop his son for treason and murder; at the assises held at chelmsford for the county of essex, on wednesday the th of march, . also the wonderfull discovery both of the treason and murder; with the sentence of the court for the manner and places of their execution. written by a person who was present at the tryal. alsop, james. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) treason and murther discovered being a true and perfect relation of the tryal & condemnation of james alsop the father, and william alsop his son for treason and murder; at the assises held at chelmsford for the county of essex, on wednesday the th of march, . also the wonderfull discovery both of the treason and murder; with the sentence of the court for the manner and places of their execution. written by a person who was present at the tryal. alsop, james. alsop, william, of west ham, defendant. aut , [ ] p. [s.n.], london : printed in the year, . last page unnumbered; text ends on a v. copy has considerable print show-through. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng alsop, james -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . alsop, william, -- of west ham -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . trials (murder) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion treason and murther discovered . being a true and perfect relation of the tryal & condemnation of james alsop the father , and william alsop his son for treason and murder ; at the assises held at chelmsford for the county of essex , on wednesday the th of march , . also the wonderfull discovery both of the treason and murder ; with the sentence of the court for the manner and places of their execution . written by a person who was present at the tryal . london , printed in the year , ●● . treason and murder discovered , &c. upon wednesday , march the th , . the court being sate , william alsop alias thomas topham , was called to the barr , and two indictments read against him ; the one of treason for clipping of money ; the other for murther . that of treason to this effect , that he the said william alsop alias thomas topham , and james alsop senior , and others , of west-ham in the county of essex , had trayterously and feloniously against the peace of our sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity , with certain iron instruments , sheers , scissers , and other tools then and there found , clipped filed , and diminished the kings coyn , viz. fourty pieces of silver , each of them of the value of d. commonly called queen elizabeths shillings , and clipped from off them silver to the value of three pence ; forty other pieces of silver commonly called king james his shillings , and clipped off silver to the value of three pence ; forty pieces of silver called king charles the first his shillings , and clipped off from them silver to the value of three pence ; and twenty other pieces of money , called king charles the first his half crowns , and clipped silver from each of them to the value of eight pence , &c. ( according to the usual form of indictments . ) to these two indictments william allsop pleaded guilty , and seemed to excuse the rest , viz. his father , mother , and brother . william allsop being set by , james allsop the elder , and dorothy allsop the wife of james allsop the elder , and james allsop junior , was called to the barr , and the indictments to the same effect with the former was read ; to which they pleaded not guilty , and submitted themselves to their tryal by god and the country : upon which , the several witnesses was called and sworn ; viz. first the bell-man , two constables of west-ham , and several others . the constables and bell-man gave in their evidence thus ; the bell-man declared ▪ that upon the tuesday morning , the time that the murther was committed , he passed by the house of james allsop senior , and gave him the usual salute , and the time of the night , and was answered again by the said james allsop , and that he saw no light in the house ; neither did he hear the dogs bark as they use to do oftentimes to his affrightment : which dogs , as he was afterwards informed , were shut up in the barn ; and , as it was supposed , to prevent any disturbance by their noise , to their intended bloody design . in the morning , the murther being noised about , several people , as well officers as others , flocked to the house to enquire about it ; amongst which , he enquired of james allsop senior , and his wife , about the murther ; they both told him , that they had been robbed that night , and the persons that rob'd them , had done the murther : but the officers was not sufficiently satisfied with their answer , but made a farther search into the house , and found a chest in the chamber , where the murther was committed , empty ; which they said was their daughters chest , wherein was plate and wearing clothes ; but searching their chamber , they found the clothes which they pretended to be stole ; and also found in their daughters chamber a silver spoon , and a silver cup standing by the bed ; so that if robbery was the intention , they would have taken away those things . next , the constable agrees in a great part of the evidence of the bell-man , but gives this farther , that when he was about to carry james alsop before a justice of the peace , he desired to go into his house , pretending to make fast his dores ; which the constable granted ; but he would have gone into his chamber by himself , which the constable would not agree to : then he desired that he onely would go along with him ; which he did , and being alone , he pulled out of his breeches a bundle tyed up in leather , in which was several clippings of money . he tells the constable , that this bundle he found last night coming home between mile-end , and bow , and knowing , that upon this unhappy accident ( as he called it ) these things being found about him , it might do him a great prejudice , he would therefore give him ten pounds if he would conceal these clippings ; but the constable told him , he dar'd not do it , and brought him out to the company , and shewed what he found about him : upon this they make narrower search , and find in a chamber where wooll used to be laid up , in the wooll was hid several sheers , and a whetstone with several furrows in it , supposed to be for the smoothing of the money after it was clipped . ( here the sheers , scissers , and other tools , and whetstone , with the clippings bound up in leather , were shewn in court , and handled and viewed by the judge , and most of the jury . ) that when they first heard of these clippings found , they went to the house , and searched narrowly the parts of the same , in order to make further discovery ; and in a window in one of the chambers , they found clippings and filings , and the impression of the tooles , and spyed in a crevice something glyster , upon which they took up the boards , and there found hanging in the cobwebs several small clippings and filings of silver , some of which he shewed in court the next evidence was the other constable , which was much to the same effect with his partners , and agreed in the same circumstances . then there was called one that had peen a servant in his house , and lived so near to the chamber where they were supposed to clip , that he and his wife often heard a tinckling-noise ; he declares , that he never saw any thing of their clipping , but his wife and he had often been discoursing about the noise they heard , and she told her husband , that when she lived in yorkshire , she lived next to a house where she heard such noises in the night , and that afterwards there was a discovery made of clipping of mony ; and she-wished this might not prove so . he declared also that he had taken severall times clipped many of him for wages , and thought sometimes it looked as if it was but new done ; whereupon he once said to his master , when they were drinking together , master ; i doe not like this tink-a-tink-tink we often hear in your chamber , pray god you be john ; upon which he was very inquisitive to know what he meant by the tink-a-tink-tink ; he told him , he would say no more . a while after james allsop arrested this servant in a vexatious suit , but tould him if he would talke no more of tink-a-tink-tink , he would release him ; and that after he was apprehended , and the clippings discovered , he told james allsop , that now was come to pass what he long feared and expected . and afterwards when he visited his master in the gaol , he told him , that if he had bin worthy to know of his observations and suspicions of him before , he would have given him two or three hundred pound to have concealed what he observed . next was called and sworn a gold-smith , that bought the melted silver of this james allsop , he declared that about two years , or two years & half since , this james allsop came to his shop , and shewed him some burnt silver , and asked him what he would allow him , an ounce for it , and told him that a friend of his , had a house burnt down in york-shire , and that all his plate and mony was melted and burnt in the fire ; and tould him , if he would give him as much as it was worth , he could help him to more ; for as fast as they found it , and got it out of the ruins , it would be sent to him ; the gold smith allowed him four shillings ten pence an ounce , and bought at that time about four pound weight of him ; and said , that this james allsop sould to him about four or five times afterwards , of melted silver about three or four pound weight at a time ; and that he ordered letters to be left for him at his shop , and shewed him some subscribed by one nich. campion , who was pretended to be the person that sent this silver out of york-shire ; the gold-smith produced some part of the silver and shewed it in court. then allsop was called and asked what he had to say for himself , he made a long , tedious , and impertinent discourse in his defence , endeavouring to lay 't all upon his son william , that had confessed , and brought a boy or two that lived in his house to say , that the tinking noise in his house was pointing of nails to hang leather on , and several other idle excuses he made . then dorothy allsop was called , the evidence against her for this indictment was onely , that she had bin with her husband at the gold-smiths . james allsop junior was called , and little could be fastened upon him by the evidence . then the second indictment was read against jeames allsop junior for clipping , and there was produced in court a portmantle , in which was clippings , and sheeres , and other instruments , with some letters subscribed by nich. campion , which was after found to be done and contrived by james allsop junior , and william allsop who personated this nich. campion , sometimes went for his man : this was found in an ale-house in moore-fields , where a person that went by the name of campion lodged , and this portmantle was brought thither by this young allsop , who went there as campions man ; there was severall circumstances to prove this portmantle to be made in young allsops house , and that they there contrived it , and carried it from thence to moor-fields , but nothing positively could be proved . then there was read the indictment of murder against james allsop , the elder , and dorothy allsop , his wife , the evidence was first by the coroner , who said , that when he had , viewed the body , and had examined allsop and his wife , who tould him , that their house had bin robbed , and the theeves had murdered their daughter in bed ; the coroner demanded of them which way the thieves came in , they tould him , that they came in at such a window , the coroner went into the yard , and viewed the place , and found the glase lying behind a hedge , and as carefully set as any glasier could set it ; there being no part broken : he could likewise discover no foot-steps either in the grass , which was high , or print of any foot or toe in the wall , by which they should ascend to the window ; and viewing the window , they found it full of cobwebs , which went cross it , and not a part above the breath of a hand broke in them , so that it was impossible for any person to come in there , the cobwerbs remaining whole . a little child was then brought , which was the daughter of the young woman that was murdered ; she said , that she saw some body go out of the chamber in the night without any light she thought , about the height of her grandmother ; and that she found her self wet in bed , but knew not what was the reason of it ; but in the morning she went and told her grandfather , that her mother was kill'd ; who answered , god forbid ; and that was all she could declare . the next was the surgeons evidence , who declared , that hearing of the murther , he came to the house , and viewed the wound , and came down and found mris. allsop smoaking a pipe of tobacco by the fire ; he asked her , who did the murther ? she answered , the lord knowes . he enquired for her husband , she told him he was gone out just before he came in . the surgeon went after him , and over-took him about a bow shot from his house , and told him he must know something of this murther ; and ( the constable being by ) he charged allsop with the suspition of this murther . then a person of quality declared , that he went to view the place , and found it according to the coroners evidence ; and that there was shewn to him a vizard mask found in allsops trunk , having a drop of a candle newly done , on the out-side , and on the inside a spot of blood , like the print of a thumb ; and that when he caused allsops sleeve to be turn'd up , and found a spot of blood upon his shirt , which allsop said , was caused by bringing home some meat the night before ; and on mrs. allsops neck-kercher there was a spot of blood , which she said , was an iron-mold ; but a bason of water being brought to try it , the blood washed clear out , which no iron-mould would . other circumstances was proved against old allsop , as that he was observed in the morning when he rose to have black breeches on ; and that afterwards he had changed them , and put on other clothes . to this evidence , allsop answered , that his son william had been a treacherous son , and had done this to destroy him ; and talked a great deal , but nothing to any purpose . the wife likewise denyed that she knew any thing of the murther . upon which the jury went out , and returned with this verdict , that old alsop was guilty of clipping , and the murther ; and the wife and james alsop junior , not guilty . william alsop was guilty by his own confession . william alsop received sentence to be drawn upon a sledge from the gaol in chelmsford , to the place of execution , and there to be hanged by the neck till his body be dead . old alsop to be conveyed to stratford gaol , and to be drawn upon a sledge from the same gaol , to the place of execution , which shall be before his own house in west-ham ; where he is to be hanged upon a gibbet by the neck , till his body be dead . finis . some of the most material errors and omissions in the late printed tryals of the romish priests at the old-baily, jan. , approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing s estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) some of the most material errors and omissions in the late printed tryals of the romish priests at the old-baily, jan. , anderson, lionel, d. . p. s.n., [london : ] caption title. includes testimony given by lionel anderson. place and date of publication from wing. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng anderson, lionel, d. . trials (treason) -- england -- london -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion some of the most material errors and omissions in the late printed tryals of the romish priests at the old-baily , jan. . . to the reader . finding in the humour of this age , nothing more frequent than ( in printing of tryals ) wilful or ignorant mistakes and omissions ; witness mr. reading's tryal , ( and the rest ) where mr. just . wild told bedloe , god forgive him , he was perjur'd ; by bedloe's interest , that was thought fit to be omitted in his printed tryal : i thought it my duty to rectifie the mistakes in these last printed tryals , especially as to what concerns mr. anderson , having it from an impartial protestant pen , who stood by him as he spake it . those scriblers who ( as my l. c. j. hath well observed ) write for bread , without any respect to truth , have only this to say for their mistakes , that mr. anderson , by reason of his weakness , might easily have been mis-understood . well , admit it ; but why bedloe's open perjury about mr. anderson's father omitted ? and why mr. anderson's appeal to capt. rich. if that was not true what he urged against dangerfield ? with many other material omissions , as in this supplement you will see ; why these passages , i say , were omitted , truly i cannot tell : unless dangerfield had the same influence over those scriblers , or the printer , that bedloe had in printing mr. reading's tryal ; or else foreseeing that his most gracious majesty would either pardon them , or reprieve them , thought they need now prove so sincere in the relation of what the prisoners said for themselves ; but it proves otherwise , and their malice reflects on none but themselves ; for , magna est veritas & praevalebit . some material errors and omissions , &c. page . line . anderson . my lord , for my staying in the kingdom , i had the kings express command , and an order from the council-board : in the year . they ordered mr. peter welsh , and my self , with four or five others who had in writing asserted his majesties just rights over all his subjects , whether protestant , or papist , against those so frequently imputed usurpations of the court of rome . after this plot was discovered , i came to the king , being afraid of being involv'd in the general calamity , and said to him , sir , i desire to know what to do ? p. .l. . anderson . my lord , i that am but a poor little individuum , who am born with an innate and implicite obedience to my king , pray judge whether it lie in my power to dispute with him and his council , whether they can legally do this or no ? or that i ought to obey the kings command . my lord , i am put upon a hard dilemma ; if i ( notwithstanding his majesties command to the contrary ) go out of the kingdom , then the severe imputation upon us , is urged against me , that i have , with my religion , renounced my natural allegiance : and if i stay , then by the law , ( as you tell me ) i forfeit my life . p. .l. . anderson . no , i won't . pray do not interrupt me ; i perceive you have a pick against my life , and it may be i am as ready to give it , as you are to desire it ; i wish that all the punishments of hell and damnation may come upon me , if ever i open'd my mouth to this rogue for one farthing , or about any such business in the world. p. .l. . anderson . but my lord , this one thing i have to say against this rogue ; there is a statute , made since his majesties happy restauration , which judges what shall be treason during his majesties life : and after enumerating the crimes , and directing that the offender shall be convicted by the oaths of two lawful , adds , and credible witnesses : as if the prudence of our legislators , which brings good out of evil , and measures the subjects future safety , by past practices , judges that clause necessary , and credible . p. .l. . l. c. j. you must not do thus , abuse persons with words , without proof . anderson . what , to prove it is day ? mr. just. pemb. he must not be suffer'd so to do . anderson . why here is captain richardson , ( taking him at the same time by the shoulders ) knows what i say to be true : come speak , you have been familiarly acquainted with that rogue , ( pointing at dangerfield ) [ capt. richardson laughing , i must not witness . ] my lord , i will do thus no more , indulge a little to my innocency and infirmity . mr. just . pemb. you don't seem to have so much infirmity upon you . anderson . my lord , i will produce that worthy gentleman col. mansell , whose innocent bloud was designed to be shed by that villain ; who stood qualified then ( as he doth now ) with that magnificent title of the kings evidence ; but as soon as colonel mansell urged , that he was pillory'd twice , &c. our worshipful kings evidence was clapt up , and col. mansell left at liberty . p. .l. . anderson . 't is very true , i did it ; but , my lord , i will shew you , mass is no proof of a priest : for , . the statute makes a difference between saying mass , and being a priest ; in punishing priests , with death ; but saying of mass , with a pecuniary mulct of marks , and a years imprisonment . p. .l. . anderson . i understand by the laws of england , that i am tryed upon a statute , which makes priesthood a crime . now i will ask mr. oates a question ; mr. oates , can you prove that i received orders from the see of rome ? you are to prove by this statute three things against me : i am tryed upon a penal statute , which ought to be proved strictly against me , and construed most favourably on behalf of the prisoner . p. .l. . anderson . my lord , how comes it to pass that i did not come here in a yellow coat ; and was not arraigned for a fool , and not for a traytor ? if i am a priest , that i should tell him i was such an one ? p. .l. . strictly and in favour of the prisoner . p. .l. . mr. bedloe . he is a priest , and an englishman , if his mother be honest , and he honestly born ; for he is mr. anderson's son of oxfordshire , a gentleman of or l. a year ; i know him and his father very well . anderson . my lord , could i but apprehend that i lay under so great a guilt , as to have been acquainted with so great a rogue , as this fellow is , i would have been my own executioner , and not have expected my sentence at this bar. l. c. j. do you know him well ? mr. bedloe . very well , both him and his father ; his father is an oxfordshire gentleman . anderson . now i think i shall prove the rogue perjur'd : is my lord chief baron in the court ? court. yes , he is . anderson . why then my father has the honour to be well known to his lordship , who knows this to be false . l. ch. bar. no , no , mr. bedloe , he is a gentleman's son of quality in lincolnshire . l c. j. you are mistaken , you are mistaken , his father is a lincolnshire gentleman . anderson . and yet this rogue is upon his oath ; but indeed all his life is full of such mistakes . mr. bedloe . i don't know , my lord privy seal's nephew told me so . [ note mr. bedloe 's manifest perjury . ] p. .l. . anderson . my lord chief justice , i will bring witnesses to prove , that i did never say mass at wild-house , nor went to the chappel ; for some ( forsooth ) would needs have me to have been excommunicated for writing for the kings temporal jurisdiction over all his subjects , ( independent of the pope ) as appears by a letter of the bishop of london on my behalf , to sir clement armiger . p. .l. . anderson . nor would i tell a lye to take away the life of the greatest villain upon earth ; no not that rogue , ( pointing at dangerfield : ) but my lord , i protest , &c. p. .l. . anderson . i suppose the gentlemen of the jury being apprized of these my exceptions to these witnesses , notwithstanding give credit to them , whom perhaps they would not trust for d. in their shops , and make themselves their compurgators ; & as in waging law , do take it upon their conscience , that what these rogues say is true . p. .l. . anderson . that the clerk does at mass , he gives absolution . much more mr. anderson would have said , if his great indisposition of health had not hindred him ; or mr. justice pemberton , by his too frequent ( as vehement ) interruptions would have permitted him . p. .l. . corker . i would not tell a lye , though i should thereby save my life ; and i do again protest before god and the court , i never in my life said mass , or heard confessions at somerset-house chappel , nor at mr. paston's in duke-street . and as to the savoy , seeing i will be sincere , i shall only say , that as my denial will not clear me , so i beg i may not be my own accuser . at which several persons gave a hum , as approving of his sincerity . l. c. j. here is one hath swore it . corker . 't is only oates , my lord. p. .l. . mr. prance . i know he is a priest , and have heard him say mass at the venetian ambassador's , and at mr. paston's , and he went by the name of johnson . recorder . did you go by that name ? parry . no , i never went in my life but by my own name parry , that is my name , whatever he says , and i am not asham'd of it . p. .l. . parry . i have no reason to forget my self , for i never did any such thing , for i never brought or sold to him any chalice , or any such thing , and besides suppose i had , that doth not argue that i am a priest . l. c. j. no , but if he were so holy as to touch the chalice , he would be a priest . p. .l. . parry . i was never in my life at the venetian ambassador's , nor at mr. paston's , nor at wild-house . p. .l. . l. c : j. can you swear that he is the man ? bedloe . no. l. c. j. then set him aside . p. .l. . mr. prance . yes ; and i heard him confess himself to be a priest . p. .l. . parry . 't is false . p. .l. . parry . i know not mr. johnson , my name is parry ; i hope it is not just i should be hang'd for another person . p. .l. . and then for the private room , what room of the house was it ? ( this mr. parry said , in answer to dr. oates 's testimony about the private room in wild-house . ) p. .l. . jacob. no , we did . p. .l. . parry . i would ask mr. oates , and desire him to answer me to it , what he did depose against me before my lord shaftsbury , viz. that he heard me say mass in wild chappel , and there heard mr. collins's confession , and now he says , it was in a private room ; now i have it to shew that i did not officiate there , nor frequent the house . p. ib.l. . l. c. j. who is it that will prove that you did not come to the house ? parry the ambassador's servants . p. l. parry . he is one of the servants to my lord egmond , and he lived in the house , and he knows that by his master's order all his domesticks were examined , and all protested they neither knew nor saw me ever in wild-house ; all which i have under his hand and seal to shew , ( and so pluckt it out of his pocket . ) l. c. j. it signifies nothing . p. .l. . starkey . he tells me of priests habits ; what are they , sir ? l. c. b. what habit had he on ? dr. oates . a thing about his neck , and a surplice , and a thing about his arm ; he had a surplice girt about him . starkey . i know you not ; and i perceive you neither know what a priest's habit is , nor the difference between his habit and his ornaments . a priest's habit is a cassock down to the ground , and a side cloak ; the ornaments of a priest are not a surplice , ( as oates says ) but an albe that falls to the ground , and other things besides that . p. .l. . starkey . and how did you know that i said mass ? did you know that i took orders ? for if i took no orders , it was no mass ; for it is the priest makes the mass , and not the mass the priest , and then if i were no priest , it could be no mass . mr. j. pemberton . that is a pretty argument indeed : do any but priests say mass ? starkey . i can bring instance of a gentleman in this town , a private lay-man , who said mass about this town , and he was a protestant , and at last he stole the chalice , ( his name was gardner . ) mr. j. pemberton . he did well , did he not ? is that your use ? starkey . yes , with such priests as he . p. .l. . mr. prance . my lord , i heard him say mass at my lady somerset's in lincolns-inn fields , and at mr. duncomb's , that taught school in princes-street . starkey . as i hope for mercy from almighty god , i was never there in all my life ( except pantly ) her house in gloucestershire . p. .l. . mr. prance . did you know one mr. duncomb that is dead ? starkey . yes . mr. prance . well , i heard you say mass at his house . starkey . my lord , i was never at mr. duncomb's in my life , but at or a clock in the afternoon , and if i said mass there , it was over a pot of ale. mr. prance . i have heard him say he said mass in the king's army . starkey . i know neither of these two fellows . mr. recorder . come , i would fain see whether you priests and jesuits can speak one word of truth or no : come , mr. starkey , did you ever say mass in the army ? starkey . i never did : but pray give me leave to speak ; i appeared for the king , when he had not above men in appearance for him ; i am but a younger brother , second brother to john starkey of darley in the county of chester esq and yet with an annuity of seven score pounds a year , which i bought , and other moneys which i had , i spent above l. in the king's service , ( which i bled for before i had it ) for i got it in another monarch's service ; i lost my leg for him by a cannon-shot , and so spent my estate to that degree , that that day when i received my sentence of banishment , i had but three half crowns in the world , which were given me that same morning by two friends . p. .l. . starkey . pray , my lord , give me leave to add something more : i was banish'd for years into france , because i refus'd to take an engagement never to bear arms again for the king ; i did discover to this king a plot design'd against his life , state , and government , i suffer to this day for it ; and i delivered ( into his own hand ) articles of high-treason against the plotters and their abettors . p. .l. . l. c. b. you may be a priest for all that . starkey . but , my lord , by the civil law it is a conclusion , that although a man be a traitor , and in the same plot , he is to be indempnified for discovering the conspiracy against his prince ; much more for discovering another , ( that i was not a party in . ) p. .l. . starkey . if i was there , sure there was some body else besides my self , i did not say mass alone ; produce but one witness for you , then i 'le submit . p. .l. . anderson . i can say this , i would have gone out of england , but the king kept me here , telling me , i should not go ; and i had a protection from the council-board . the bishop of london , when i was taken first , sent a letter to sir clement armiger , that neither i nor my books should be medled with , that i had written for the king and the government , for which he conceived i might be excommunicated at rome , and that i was then under a special protection of his majesty and council ; and when i was again taken and put in custody of the horse-guard , the duke of monmouth sent sir thomas armstrong to have me freed again ; i begg'd of the king that i might go , said i , i won't expose the king to the worst of rabbles ; but he told me , i should stay in england ; and mr. peter welsh and i had orders from the council , he one and i another , to stay : p. .l. . parry . what have i to say for my self ? i have this to say , that those that did depose against me , did not say one word of truth as to their allegations , i take god to witness for it ; i am a dying man , and thank most heartily the court for what they are to pronounce against me , and i am as ready to suffer , as any man may be to have me to suffer , for it is god's glory , and his cause . then i insisted upon two parts , and complained , first , of sir william turner , that being brought before him by mr. prance , and shewing him my protection under an ambassador , and i professing my self a frenchman , he slighted it , which i held to be a manifest breach against the law of nations : secondly , i was wronged by sir william waller , when ( in his examination of me with justice warcup ) in the press-yard , newgate , he threatned me with irons , &c. if i did not take my oath i was not born in france , and i refusing , ( which none could be compelled to ) for 't was my opponents part to prove the contrary ; and who can prove me to be other than a frenchman ? mr. recorder . no body can ; we believe you to be an englishman . parry . if i be a frenchman , i am not subject to the penal laws . p. .l. . starkey . in the first place , mr. recorder , here is the man ( pointing at mr. prance ) hath sworn two lyes at one breath . p. ibid : l. . starkey . because there are hundreds , perhaps thousands , that have suffered death for it . p. .l. : starkey : i was threatned my life and liberty by the plotters : ibid. l. . he took me in his arms , and told me , you are welcome : p. ibid.l. . starkey . mr. recorder , i have wished an times , and wish now , that if there were any commissions , as is pretended , the first that had delivered one to me , should never have delivered a second ; for i would either have brought him to justice , where he should receive his reward , or else i would have kill'd him in the place : tell the king , mr : recorder , that i say so . p. ibid . starkey . if the king does not own what i told you , then count me the greatest knave that ever you spoke withal . p. .l. . mr. recorder : mr. starkey , what can you say for your self ? mr. starkey : mr. recorder , i have here ( plucking it out of his pocket ) his majesty's gracious pardon , of the th year of his reign : mr. recorder . i allow that , but you have stay'd here since : starkey . why then , mr. recorder , pray will you advise me what to have done ? nature teachheth all men to shun danger , for i was threatned with life , &c. if i stay'd in france ; whether should i stay there , or return to my native countrey with my king ? now , mr. recorder , i desire to know what you would have had me done ? mr. recorder . i shall acquaint the king , and will do you all the kindness i can with him : p. .l. . starkey . mr : recorder , give me leave to speak one word : if any one should have held to me that position , that it is lawful to depose and murther kings , i would have kill'd him in the place : tell the king , mr. recorder , i say so . p. . mr. anderson . it is my comfort , that no one of common sense can believe it : after the sentence was pronounc'd ; parry : te deum laudamu●s , te dominum confitemur . finis . the tryal of john giles at the sessions-house in the old bayly, held by adjournment from the th day of july, until the th day of the same month the adjournment being appointed on purpose for the said giles, his trial for a barbarous and inhumane attempt to assasinate and murther john arnold. giles, john. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of john giles at the sessions-house in the old bayly, held by adjournment from the th day of july, until the th day of the same month the adjournment being appointed on purpose for the said giles, his trial for a barbarous and inhumane attempt to assasinate and murther john arnold. giles, john. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) p. printed by thomas james for randal taylor, london : . "made publick by vertue of an order of the lords spiritual and temporal in parliament assembled." reproduction of original in the huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (murder) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - jason colman sampled and proofread - jason colman text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of john giles at the sessions-house in the old bayly : held by adjournment from the th day of july , , until the th day of the same month : the adjournment being appointed on purpose for the said giles his trial , for a barbarous and inhumane attempt , to assassinate and murther john arnold esq one of the justices of peace for the county of monmouth , and now a member of the honourable house of commons . made publick by vertue of an order of the lords spiritual and temporal , in parliament assembled . london , printed by thomas james for randal taylor , and by him sold at his house near stationers hall : . by vertue of an order to me granted by the lords spiritual and temporal in parliament assembled , dated on thursday the th of octob. ; i do appoint randal taylor , near stationers hall , to print this trial of mr. john giles , and that no other person or persons presume to print the same . london , octob. . . jo. combe . to the reader . certain it is , that by the fall of adam the general peace establish'd through the whole creation betwixt man and man , and even among the beasts themselves , was universally-broken . nature could never restore that peace to the brute animals , but that they still devour and prey one upon another . but heaven provided for rational man a sacred means to regain and preserve that blessed unity , which would have always accompany'd his state of innocency , which was the observance of religion ; which as it binds us to god , so ought it to tie us one to another in the strict bonds of heavenly example . to this intent , at length christ himself brought down from heaven a gospel of love and charity ; so that , as it is the true character of a true religion to vnite and preserve , so it is the most certain sign of a false and counterfeit religion , to disunite and destroy mankind . from whence we may easily conclude , that as there is no religion in the world that more imploys it self to the destruction of mankind , and the subversion of national order and government , then that of popery , so there can be no greater argument of its being counterfeit and false : that it ascended from below , never descended from above . which if people blinded and besotted by custom , cannot be brought to hate for it's ridiculous and abominable blasphemous ceremonies and superstitions ; they ought to abominate for its tyranny and cruelty . a tyranny then which never was any tyranny more domineering and ruinous ; a cruelty , then which never was any more barbarous among the adorers of moloch : as if it were their design to excel the ceremonies of the old law , by sacrificing men instead of beasts . were not this cruelty one of the main points of their doctrine ; and opression one of the chief supports of their bloody principles , it might be thought a defect of government in some of their particular ecclesiastical potentates , that such enormities were committed . but the torments of their inquisition , their assassination of princes , the maximes of their policy , their practices of extirpation of hereticks , as they call 'em , their devastations of whole countreys , upon that account , their croisado's to the ruin of emperors and crowned kings , sufficiently testify another thing . this very plot , so providentially discovered , of which this very tryal , brings a bloody part upon the stage of the world , is but a link'd contrivance of their designs of massacre and cruelty ever since queen elizabeth first ascended the english throne . 't is the misfortune of the papists , that they maintain and assert those principles in the doctrine of their religion , which they dare not own . and therefore never men have ever us'd more artifices to conceal their villanies ; and yet so providence would have it , never did men commit more folly to help out the discovery : while murther and assassination , in which they put their confidence , gave evidence against themselves ; and crimes discover crimes . as if those crimes would teach us how vainly criminals object against the testimony of men , because they were once so bad as to be in the conspiracy : as if that murther made a man a saint , but repentance and confession made a man a devil . in the infancy of the discovery , sir edmondbury godfrey had onely taken a single information of their conspiracies , which because it should not be read , they could find no better an expedient then to blur and cover the writing with his blood : so vain was their belief that the eye of justice could not pierce through such a crimson stain : so swift was the pursuit of their malice , to revenge themselves against the law , upon a person who had onely acted according to the law. and as if their motto had been , nemo nos impuné — or that because they were disapointed in their impious attempts upon the sacred person of the supream magistrate , they were resolv'd to wreck their malice upon his subordinate ministers of justice ; they lay their trains for this same worthy gentleman , john arnold esq of lanvihangel in the county of monmouth , whose misfortune was the occasion of this tryal . they could not be content by their lies and false reports to have scandilized and almost lull'd asleep the belief of the plot , but they must awaken it again by the designed murther of this gentleman . to shew they were not such dull scholars in the school of blood , but that they could follow a fair president . he must be another sir edmondbury godfrey , a second victime to their inexorable malice , to deter others , by giving them to understand how unsafe it was to hinder the progress of their busie contrivances . highly had mr. arnold offended his holiness , and his viperous brood , in monmouth and herefordshire . his active and indefatigable diligence in discovering their private haunts , and giving life to those laws that were in force against them , was a great curb to their daring and encouraged boldness in those counties : wherein his zeal for the true protestant religion , and his care of the publick safety , were the more eminently remarkable , in that he had with no less vigour proceeded in the discharge of his duty , before the discovery of the plot , in the time of their highest presumption and encouragment , then after ; as may appear by the printed abstract of examinations , by him taken upon oath in those parts , and the accompt given by him to the house of commons upon the th of april . he had also , since that , disturb'd within the verge of his own authority another nest of romish adders , that advanc'd their heads and hiss'd against the publick laws of the nation . and indeed such was his vigilant prosecution of those vermin , that his diligence reached the ears of the publick minister of portugal ; as hath been sworn before the two houses of parliament by one of his prime servants : who therefore thought him fit to be remov'd , and was privy to the intention . so general was the combination , so formidable his integrity . however it pleas'd the over-ruling providence , that notwithstanding the desperateness of the attempt , and the barbarousness of the execution , those antichristian bravo's miss'd their bloody aim ; so that the loss of his blood made only room for justice , and the scars of his wounds , were but the capital letters that spelt papistical impiety : while he by a kind of resurrection from the house of death , becomes the monument of his own loyalty , and a living martyr and victime to romes cruelty ; from whose inhumane sufferings , neglected and upbraided truth took a fair advantage to lay the foundations of new triumphs . whom heav'n would therefore have chosen into the grand senate of the nation , that he might be in the eye of the kingdom , a continual evidence against that irreligious religion , of which that high assembly seek with so much zeal and just cause to suppress the growth and progress . nor can we here omit an honourable mention of that worthy gentleman , edmund warcup esq who while this honour'd sufferer lay weltring in his blood , and hung in the ballance of life or death , gave those signal testimonies of his unwearied pains to serve the publick and his friend , which can never be forgotten . and to whose indefatigable and judicious industry , as well in the discovery of the actors in this tragedy , as in rommaging the most secret penetralia of the plot it self , the whole nation is not a little indebted . the conviction then of the person arraigned upon this tryal , ought to be accounted in the number of the most remarkable records of the popish plot , and therefore made publick to be added to the rest for general satisfaction ; all little enough to combat that infidelity which either weakness or interest still cherish in the nation . not considering that it is the most notorious character of the great whore , that she intoxicates with her pleasing potions , and charms with the gaudy delusions of pretence and falshood . it were else impossible that men should shut their ears with so much obstinacy against the attestations of such a crowd of undoubted testimony ; as if it could have been expected that only knights of the shire and l. mayors , should have been engaged in such a conspiracy . whether some such kind of misbelief as this , were not the occasion that put this tryal so much backward in the world , shall not be argu'd here ; only the world must know 't was none of mr. arnolds fault . however it has this advantage , that it will be never out of season : the murther of sir edmondbury godfrey , and the assassination upon mr. arnold , will be always at hand , if not to stop the mouths , yet to curb the insolence of unbelieving bigots . nor let the papists think that the spirits of the true protestants are yet so low , as to be cow'd , as they expected , by their attempt upon this gentleman . such acts of violence as these , rather exasperate then terrify . and since they have been the aggressors of the publick peace , by such violations of the laws divine and humane , it cannot be otherwise expected , but that the ministers of justice should be more careful to avoid their ambuscado's for the future ; not by withdrawing from their fury , but by exposing themselves more vigorously for the preservation of the true protestant religion , and the safety of his majesty , and the peace of the kingdom . frendet satan , fremit antichristus , tumultuantur jesuitae , & summa imis miscere conantur . ex adversa igitur parte hisce furoribus , motibus & conatibus obviam ire licet , & omnibus nervis contendere , ut vera religio & doctrina verbi dei pura conservetur , & a fermento jesuitico strenue defendatur . the tryal of john giles . the sessions began on wednesday the seventh day of july , the ninth day mr. john giles was brought to the bar , to be tried , and there pretended that he had witnesses at monmouth , who could testifie very material things for him ; and therefore prayed the court to put off his tryal until the next sessions . then the court asked him his witnesses names , and what they could say ? which he then declared to the court. upon which mr. arnold being present and prosecutor ( tam pro domino rege quam pro seipso ) the court asked his consent , and what he could say why the tryal should not be put off ; that so all the world might hereafter say , that mr. giles had all the favour that he could reasonably desire , and what the court could in justice shew him ; and that no manner of excuse might be left him ? after which , mr. arnold in a very pertinent speech declared part of the fact , and also of the proceedings before his wounding , as it had occurred between him and mr. herbert ; and of his favourable and just proceedings against mr. herbert , and also against john giles , after the fact was committed ; and declared that giles had sufficient notice of his tryal ; but notwithstanding he did submit himself to the judgement of the court. thereupon the court advising a minute or two's space ; it was ordered , that the court should be adjourned until the wednesday following ; by which time mr giles might send to monmouth , and have what witnesses brought up he could get . and the day appointed being come , and the court being sat , proclamation was made according to custom . then the following jury were called and sworn : viz. christopher plucknet william dodd anthony nurse john burton nathan goodwin george wood james partridge lawrence wood john bradshaw william withers edward proby richard bromfield . who according to the form of law , were charged to enquire , whether the prisoner were guilty of the following indictment , upon which he had been arraigned , and had pleaded not guilty ? the indictment . the jurors of our lord the king , upon their oaths , do present that john giles , late of the parish of st. dunstans in the west , in the county of middlesex gentleman , not having god before his eyes , but being moved and seduced by the instigagation of the devil , contriving and maliciously , by a most wicked conspiracy , with divers other malefactors , to the jurors unknown , fore-thought , and had , intending one john arnold esq a faithful subject to the king , and one of the justices of the peace , for the county of monmouth , inhumanely to maim , wound , kill , and murther , the fifteenth of april , in the thirty second year of the reign of our sovereign lord charles the second , by the grace of god king of england , scotland , france and ireland , defender of the faith , &c. with the said malefactors unknown , at the parish of st. dunstans in the west , aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , in and upon him the said john arnold , then and there being in the peace of god and the king , unlawfully , voluntarily , and of his malice , fore-thought , with force and arms , that is to say , with swords , staves and knives , of design , and by lying in wait , did make an assault ; and him the said john arnold , did then and there beat , wound , maim , and evilly intreat , and the throat and face of him the said john arnold , did grievously cut with a certain knife , also divers , almost mortal wounds , then and there , to the said john arnold , that is to say , one wound of the depth of seven inches in his body , between his belly and his left pap , two wounds upon his breast , and two wounds in his left arm ; with certain swords , did then and there give and impose , so that it was despaired of the said john arnold's life , and other enormities then and there unto him did bring , to the great danger of the said john arnold , and against the peace of our said lord the king , his crown and dignity . mr. gibbs , gentlemen , this is an indictment against john giles , the prisoner at the bar , for assaulting , and intending to dispatch and murther john arnold , one of his majesties justices of the peace , on the th day of april . this john giles and several others , did intend to kill mr. arnold , and set upon him in jackanapes-lane ; threw him down , and endeavoured to thrust their swords into him , but finding no penetration there , they kneeled upon him , and with a knife endeavoured to cut his throat , and in one place made a very large gash , and cut his face ; he endeavouring to keep them from his throat , they gave him a wound in his side seven inches deep , between his belly and left pap. they gave him several other wounds . to this he has pleaded not guilty . mr. holt. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am counsel for the king , and the indictment hath represented to you the most horrid , vile and barbarous assault that has been almost ever committed , and that any man has heard of ; and which i think scarce any thing in history can parallel . it was , gentlemen , in its nature most cruel , by the giving him so many wounds as are set forth in the indictment ; having first way-laid and surprized him near a place , and at such a time , as was convenient for the execution of their wicked design . this mr. arnold having occasion to go through bell-yard , between the hours of ten and eleven of the clock at night , at the end of jackanapes-lane , he was suddenly seized by two men , and by them halled into the lane , where they gave him several wounds , and used him in a most barbarous manner . and this did not arise from any private difference or animosity , that they could conceive against mr. arnold ; but from a cause more general , that is , the prosecution of the horrid popish plot ; against which mr. arnold , as became him , and according to the duty of his office , he being a justice of the peace , was a very zealous person . gentlemen , in the first place we will call mr. arnold , who shall plainly prove that this prisoner at the bar , was one of the three assassines ; and he proves it by a miraculous providence : for just before they seized upon him , a woman in bell-yard held out a candle , which gave mr. arnold an opportunity to see the prisoner at the bar , and did perfectly disern him . gentlemen , though this is enough , considering the integrity , and reputation of the person ; yet we shall fortify his evidence by strong and undeniable circumstances , circumstances that do particularly relate to this matter . in the first place , gentlemen , the very day that this fact was done , this person , tho he had a good sword by his side , yet he did inquire where he might buy a more convenient sword , and did desire to know where he might have a rapier , which was thought more convenient for this design . and the very next day after this fact , tho mr. arnold's having armour on was a secret which no person but mr. walcup a justice of the peace , and mr. arnold himself ; yet this same giles could say , arnold had armour on ; and if arnold had not had armour on , his business had been done . and after this fact was committed , this giles goes into glocestershire , and being pursued by a guilty conscience , he durst not stay there ; for he was afraid , as he said himself , of being apprehended for assassinating mr. arnold . after this , gentlemen , he came to one darcy a cutler in monmuothshire , with his sword which was broken , and desired him to mend his sword. how now , says he , how came this sword to be broken ? have you been fighting with the devil ? no , says he , i have been fighting with damn'd arnold . and at the very same time when these villains thought they had effected their bloody purpose , and gave mr. arnold his dispatch : one of them said to him , now villain , if thou hast any life in thee , pray for the soul of captain evans ; which evans was a priest executed in wales , upon mr. arnolds prosecution , at whose execution this giles was present , and dipt his handkerchief in his blood. now , gentlemen , considering all this , which we will make plain to you by mr. arnold , and all these circumstances , i suppose you will have sufficient evidence to find him guilty . mr. thompson , my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , the indictment has been opened , and the matter of it , that base attempt made upon mr. arnold , that was a justice of the peace in monmouthshire , that is shewed in the indictment . but i must crave your lordships leave , that i may more particularly open this case . this is a case , gentlemen , of very great consequence , and tho' it more immediately concerns mr. arnold , yet it highly concerns every man present ; you of the jury , and i ; nay , every other freeman of england , which ought to be protected by the laws , must needs be concerned at so great a violation of them , and cannot but set our faces against such villainous and barbarous attempts as these , wherein there did not want the good will of the actors to make it a most barbarous and bloody murther in the course of our evidence and the method we will take to proceed in , it will be necessary to do these three things . first of all , we shall acquaint you with that which we apprehend to be the reason and occasion of this horrid fact. next we shall tell you what that fact was . and in the last place , enquire how far this defendent is guilty thereof . for the first , give me leave to acquaint you with what we apprehend to be the true reason of this assassination , 't is notorious to most men , but especially to the county of monmouth , where mr. arnold was a justice of peace ; how active and diligent , how faithful and vigorous a man he has been in the discharge of his duty to his king and countrey , in putting the laws in execution against the papists ; and endeavouring to suppress popery : this was the ground of their malice , as you will find by the evidence , and by the several threats that he had before this act was done . but more particularly there was this occasion , there was one whom they called captain evans , but indeed was father evans a popish priest ; this man in monmouth was taken by mr. arnold , and was prosecuted according to law and convicted . i mention this circumstance , because our evidence will refer to it , and that you will see out of the actors own mouths , if we may believe the actors in this bloody tragedy when they did the fact : this prosecution of father , captain evans , was no small occasion of their villany which they acted upon mr. arnold . these were the grounds of their malice , gentlemen , and what happened to mr. arnold was the effect . and i do the rather mention this particular , that you may know what sort of people these were that practised this villany upon mr. arnold , for it will be a necessary circumstance in our proof against this prisoner at the bar , to shew that he is one of that bloody tribe . gentlemen , the next thing is to shew , what this fact was , and how it happened . mr. arnold had a controversie with one mr. herbert , another justice of the peace in monmouth-shire ; that cause between them was to be heard before the king and council the next day after this fact was committed : i mention mr. herbert , but i hope he is more a gentleman than to be concern'd in such a villany . we will not at this time give any evidence that relates to him : for truly i believe this could only be the contrivance of a jesuite and the practice of bygotted papists . but thus it happen'd , mr. arnold going to attend his council upon this occasion , to prepare himself for this hearing , that was to be before the king and council ; in bell-yard there he is set upon , there he is wounded , there he is murther'd , as these assassines thought . and this mr. arnold will prove to you when he comes to give his evidence . this to the fact. gentlemen , the next is , now to consider how far this man at the bar is guilty of it ; and for that , gentlemen , we will give you evidence of several sorts : . the positive proof of mr. arnold himself , who as mr. holt has observed before , almost by a miracle , discovered the defendant's face ; for a light accidentally coming out of one of the neighbouring houses , and the defendant looking at mr. arnold , to see whether he was the man they wanted , immediately upon that he was assaulted and carried into jackanapes-lane , and was wounded in several places . this gentlemen is plain , and will be positively proved ; and then when this man was taken upon suspicion , and was carried before a justice of the peace , and mr. arnold was sent for , tho mr. arnold had no private intimation , no kind of knowledg before-hand of giles's being taken , and there were several men stood besides this man ; yet tho he had never seen him before , but at the time when the fact was done , mr. arnold immediately charged him with the fact , and as soon as he heard him speak he knew his voice . this was so plain upon giles , that he had not the power , tho he might have had the confidence , at that time to deny it : but instead of a denial , said , the matter could but amount to an assault and battery . in the next place we have evidence from the defendants own mouth , which in a case of this nature ought to weigh as much as can be , and i think is as much as the nature of the thing is capable of . this man the very next day after mr. arnold had been thus assaulted , discoursing with one phillips by name , and relating the business which happened to mr. arnold , and before he could know he had armour on , as we will prove from the circumstance of the time ( what does giles say ? ) says he , dam him , rot him , mr. arnold , said he , had armour on : and , this gentlemen , could not be known by him at that time , if he had not been a party in this base attempt . and there is a circumstance that goes yet beyond this , which i would have you observe , that when mr. arnold was assassinated , when they made their attempt , in the very act were these words used , dam him , rot him , he has armour on . these very words were spoken then , and upon that they fell to cut his throat . we have this circumstance more ; he had broken his sword , and went to a cutler , one darcy by name ; this man was a papist , and says he , where hast thou been giles , a fighting with the devil ? no , it was with damn'd arnold . this we will prove to you : these are evidences that are positive . some other witnesses we have , that will be very material to prove to you what sort of man the defendant is . that he has declared there is no plot ; that those that believe it , are rogues ; and if ever any of the lords in the tower should suffer , this nation should feel a bloodyer war than ever it had done ; by which you may see his bloody nature . gentlemen , besides this we shall prove ( according to their custom of shamming ) that he has from time to time pretended as if mr. arnold had done this business himself , or some of his friends , to revive the plot. a very fine contrivance indeed ! for a person to stabb himself and cut his own throat , to revive the plot. these things we will make out clearly to you : and i must tell you it is a notorious crime , such a fact as has no precedent : there 's no remembrance in history , that i know of , of such barbarous attempts , except in the case of sir edmundbury godfrey , who was most barbarously murther'd by this sort of men. and this case , gentlemen , differs from that only in this , that there they accomplish'd their villany upon him : but the providence of god saved mr. arnold's life , and i hope to as good purpose : for as providence ordered that to confirm the truth of the popish plot ; so this assassination of mr. arnold must convince all mankind ( not concerned in the plot it self ) that this damn'd popish plot still continues , and that 't is high time for all honest men , as much as in them lies , to endeavour to suppress it . you , gentlemen , will do your duty in finding this man guilty ( if the evidence we give satisfies your consciences that he is so , else god forbid ) and then i doubt not but the court will do their duty , in putting such an examplary punishment upon this villain , that may deter the like barbarous and bloody attempts for the future . mr. arnold sworn . mr. thomson . pray mr. arnold give an account of this business . mr. arnold . my lord , i was ordered by the king and council to attend upon them the next day after this villany befel me . i was upon the th day of april in my chamber in the afternoon , and my lord shandois , and several other persons came to my chamber , and one evans , one of the messengers , belonging to the council , came to give me notice that my hearing ( which i was informed was to be at four in the afternoon ) was ordered to be at ten in the morning , which was the reason i sent my servants out to give notice of this alteration to my witnesses and council . and though i had resolved not to stir out that night , i went out with the company to the devil tavern , where we were and staid till about ten , or past ; and just as we were breaking up , i recollected that i had some business with mr. phillips , who is a councellor at law , and lives near the end of bell-yard . i desired the company to stay , and i would come to them in a moment . i went to the room were several servants were , and called to some of them to go with me ; for several of my friends and neighbours being in town , i very often took their servants with me , when mine were busy , or out of the way . as i went cross fleet-street i did see two men in campaign-cloaks follow me , and i thought them to be servants belonging to some of my company , who had followed me on my calling , and as i came into bell-yard , one of them went faster than i went , and got before me , and turned and looked earnestly in my face , and i went by him , when a woman standing in a door about the middle of bell-yard with a candle in her hand , i looked in his face , and that person was the prisoner at the bar ; and when his companion or companions came up to him , i heard them laugh aloud ; i took no notice but went on , and went as far as to that house . recorder . you knew him before , mr. arnold ? mr. arnold . i did not know him so well before as to know his face . at the kennel at the end of jackanapes-lane , i looking down to find the kennel , a cloak was thrown over my head , then i found very rough hands upon my shoulders , and they ran me into jackanapes-lane just cross the lane , against the opposite wall , and they run my head so hard i think they broke it ; i drew my sword before , but before i could use it i was struck , and immediately upon that , one of them struck me ; then i apprehended what it was , but could not turn to make any defence . i received a second blow and fell , and the first thing i was sensible of was a very sharp quick thrust in my side , and the point at that thrust ran into my belly : then i recovering began to make what defence i could . with a broad sword i was run through my arms , and with a small weapon i was run through in another place of my arm. i had several other wounds ; one of them set his foot hard upon my breast , and kept me down , and he was , as i conceive , run into the leg , by one of his companions ; for i heard him say , damme thou hast spoil'd my leg. they laughed all the while and were exceeding merry . i had then on a pair of bodice of whale-bone , notwithstanding which i had four or five wounds in my body through them , for they were not proof ; but they imagin'd they were , finding their swords double sometimes ; and then said one of them , damme he has armour on , cut his throat . immediately one kneeled down , and gave me several cuts in the lower part of my face , and i did what i could to defend my self , but they have given me some indellible marks , characters that will never be obliterated while i live , and i am afraid i shall never be my self again by reason of the bruises in my head and breast . by a candle in a window , i conceive in sir timothy baldwin's house , and some women in his yard , gave them the first disturbance , and a boy coming by with a link the same time , i both saw the face of the prisoner at the bar again , and remembred i saw him in the lane just before . they then pulled the cloak from off me , and i seeing the light , and being eased of the weight , i strayn'd all my strength and cryed out , and then some company came in , who are here to prove it ; but seeing me all blood and dirt , they stood gazing on me a time , but at last took me up , and carried me into the sugar-loaf , and from thence i was carried to my lodging , where all the company i left came to me , and a chirurgeon was sent for , who is also here to prove his knowledge of the condition he found me in . and when they went away , they did not steal away as other malefactors use to do , but clapt their swords close to their bodies and went away laughing aloud . but as they were going , one of them said these words , now you dog pray for , or pray again for the soul of captain evans . captain evans was a jesuite , and was executed at cardiffe for being a priest ; and i have been informed by several persons of good quality , that when the under sheriff came to give him notice , that he had a warrant for his speedy execution , the said evans being in a game at tennis , said god damme i will play out my sett first . recorder . mr. arnold i would know one thing , will you undertake to swear positively that this person was one of the persons who stept before you ? will you take it upon your oath , that that person , the prisoner at the bar , went before you ? mr. arnold . i will take it upon my oath as far as a man can do , for one man , 't is possible , may be like another both by his voice and his face ; i can swear i believe he is the man. mr. thompson . you are satisfied upon the first sight that you had of him in the countrey , that he was the man. mr. arnold . yes sir , and he can tell you that by a very good token , for i had like to have run him through . recorder . we must not expect that there can be exact and positive proof , for men that commit offences of this impudent nature , don't usually call witnesses to be present to see them done ; therefore we would come as near as we can to circumstances , whereby a fact of such a nature is to be proved . mr. arnold , do you believe that that prisoner at the bar was one of the persons that went before you in bell-yard . mr. arnold . upon my conscience i do believe he was the man. recorder . what a clock was it ? mr. arnold . about eleven a clock , or between ten and eleven . recorder . when the link came there , was there three , and do you believe by the light you had by the link that that was one of the persons that was there . mr. arnold . i saw his face and habit , and believe he was . recorder . what habit had he on ? mr. arnold . he had a grey cloak , a compaign cloack and a coat , i think lin'd with red. it is impossible to give an account of every particular under those circumstances i was in . recorder . it is not to be expected that a man under your circumstances , should be extraordinary precise in circumstances ; therefore it is i asked you , that according to the best of your apprehension , you might acquaint the court with those circumstances that may be remembred by the jury , that they may see there be no injury done to the prisoner at the bar ; but that right be done on both sides , and that in every circumstance . mr. holt. now sir we will call mr. phillips , with whom he had this discourse the next day . recorder . will the prisoner ask him any questions ? prisoner . truly mr. arnold knew me in monmouthshire , and knew me as well as any man in the city . recorder . did you not very well know him ? mr. arnold . it is very possible i might see him , and often at assizes and sessions , but not to know him , nor did ever know whether his name were giles , or what it was . your lordship sees many persons here and often , and it 's possible do not know them ; he lives i think a dozen miles from me . prisoner . that 's a wonder ; if it please you , sir , my wife is a near relation to you , both by father and mother , and i have spoken with you in your chamber . mr. arnold . 't is possible she may , but i do not know it . stephen phillips . mr. holt. pray mr. phillips give an account of what discourse you had with giles the day after the business was done . mr. phillips . we went to the tavern , and drank two or three bottles of wine , and we had some discourse concerning mr. arnold ; it was about eight or nine a clock in the evening the next day . some discourse happen'd concerning his miserable condition , and how he was hurt , and of that nature . recorder . how many was there in company ? mr. phillips . one or two more . recorder . what house ? mr. phillips . at the crown tavern in new-street in covent garden , and among the rest mr. giles was talking of it , and said he , god dam him , god rot him , he had armour on , the word was , god dam him , or , god rot him , he had armour on ; they say . mr. holt. what time of night was that ? mr. phillips . as near as i can remember , it was about eight or nine the next day in the evening . mr. thompson . the very words that mr. arnold swears when they went to cut his throat . prisoner . my lord , if you please , there was mr. phillips and another , and i spake nothing but what i heard as news , that they had killed him if he had not on armour . recorder . for that matter mr. giles , you shall have your time , and you may call up other witnesses , but the gentleman positively swears you said these words ; and if so , i 'll assure you , it does not look as if you were a kin to him , or your wife either . walter watkins . mr. holt. mr , watkins . what did you hear that giles should say in glocester-shire about this business ? mr. thompson . what said he about this business of mr. arnold ? mr. watkins . my lord , all i can say is this , i being at the stating some accounts between mr. john giles and mr. richmond : i asked mr. giles for some horse-hair to make a fishing-line . mr. giles replyed , that he had left very good hair for me at a farriers in glocester , for he and mr. herbet jones made such haste through the town of glocester that they did not call for the horse-hair . i asked mr. giles what was the occasion of his haste ? said he , for fear we shou'd be stopt in our journey , as suspected-to be concerned in mr. arnold's business . recorder . what time was that ? mr. watkins . about the th of may. george richmond . mr. holt , mr. richmond , what can you say concerning this thing ? mr. richmond . i desired mr. giles to meet me , that we might even our accounts , and upon the th of may last he met me , and i desired mr. watkins to be present as a witness . recorder . where was it . ? mr. richmond . at vske , and as we were making up the account , said mr. watkins to mr. giles , where is the horse-hair you promised me to make fishing-lines ? giles replyed , he left very good horse-hair at a farriers in glocester : and he asked him why he left it ? he said he made hast for fear of being taken and stopt for mr. arnolds business . i cannot say whether he call'd him esq arnold , or mr. arnold , or what ; he seldom used to give him so good words . walter powel . mr. holt. what do you know concerning giles's being at the cutlers ? mr. powel . if it please you , sir , i was at the cutlers . recorder . name the time when , and the place where . powel . the th of may , at a place called vske in monmouthshire , mr. giles and i , we came there , and mr. giles asked peter darcy , whether he would mend him that sword or no ? but mr. darcy had some business that he could not get time to mend it that morning , but would do it in the afternoon . says darcy , where have you been , you have been hot at it ? what have you been fighting with the devil ? no , said he , with damn'd arnold . recorder . what did you say when the cutler asked him , whether he had been fighting with the devil ? and he said again no , not with the devil , but with damn'd arnold ? powel . peter darcy said he must not speak such words , and giles's wife pluckt him by the coat and bid him hold his tongue . mr. darnal . who was by ? powel . there was one peter darcy . mr. darnal . was one john jones there ? powel . i think there was another indeed by the apprentice . recorder . there was the apprentice , but he does not know his name , and darcy , and giles , and his wife . william richmond . mr. holt. what did you hear giles say about the rapier ? william richmond . he asked me in the afternoon before mr. arnold was hurt , where he might buy a very good rapier ? i told him i could not tell , he had then a good back-sword in the house . mr. gibbs . tell the court what acquaintance giles had with father lewis the jesuite since executed . william richmond . my lord he told me he wou'd go to the executioner and perswade him not to execute mr. lewis , but i had the executioner lockt up , and i would not suffer him ; but i did see him very active at the execution , a dipping cloaths in lewis his blood. mr. thompson . what do you say as to his coming to his lodging ? mr. richmond we went to several places that day , and at eight or nine , or between eight and nine , we came to the kings arms in st. martins-lane , and i left him at the kitchin fire , and went up into the chamber , and drank a considerable quantity of drink ; and as near as i can guess , it was between twelve and one a clock before he came to his bed : for after i was going to bed , about one of the clock , i heard john giles come up the stairs , and bid me good-night ; he called at my door just as i was pulling off my breeches to go into bed. recorder . what time was this ? william richmond . as near as i can guess it was between twelve and one , or very near one. recorder . at what house was it ? william richmond . the kings arms in st. martins-lane . recorder . what did you say when the maid was making the bed. william richmond . i asked her who it was for ? and she said for a man that was not willing to lie with any body . recorder . what time did you come to the house ? will. richmond . about nine . record . did you stay in that house till that time ? will. richmond . i lay in the house sir. record . you were not out of the house all the while ? will. richmond . no sir , i was not out of it . record . and you are sure that you did not see him again till he came to your door going to bed ? will. richmond . yes sir. record . what time was that ? will. richmond . nigh one. mr. thompson . you see the contradiction between this , and what this fellow says upon his examination , where he says he was a-bed at nine a clock . record . where did you go at that time ? will. richmond . we went to long-lane to one philpots , and she told us her husband was gone to exercise at the next church ; i do not know the churche's name , and there we went and looked upon the souldiers , but did not see him . we came back to his house again , and the gentlewoman gave us a tankard of beer , or ale. and after that we went back , and we had a mind to make sport with a countrey fellow we had with us , and went into whetstones park , from thence we went to the helmet in drury-lane . record . you went to whetstones-park , and what did you spend there ? vvill. richmond . six pence and he paid it . record . whether did you go from thence ? will. richmond . into drury-lane . record . how long did you stay in drury-lane ? vvill. richmond . it was not long sir , about an hour . record . where after that ? vvill. richmond . from thence to the peacock and staid till eight or nine . record . who did you meet withall between your going from the helmet in drury-lane to the peacock ? will. richmond . we met with one powel and another , and one elizabeth edwards . record . what did you drink there ? will. richmond , we did drink both ale and brandy . record . well said , how long did you stay there ? vvill. richmond , we staid there a pretty while , an hour or more , or two hours . record . what time of night was it that you went from thence ? vvill. richmond , about eight or nine . record . and then you went to your lodgings ? vvill. richmond , yes . record . did you drink at the kings arms ? vvill. richmond , no , we drank not all together . record . and there you stay'd till twelve or one a clock ? will. richmond , yes . record . but can you remember , as near as you can guess what time was it you saw this maid making of the bed ? will. richmond , i cannot say positively , but i judge it was about twelve a clock . mr. thompson , as to that circumstance of his coming home at twelve at night , desire mr. arnold to give an account of his examination , what time of night he came to his lodging . mr. holt , do you believe that is john giles's hand ? record , that is a copy . mr. arnold . he did confess before a justice of the peace that he was at his lodging at ten a clock ; this i heard him say , and i believe he won't deny it ; and i heard him own this examination ; my man will prove it . prisoner , deny it ? yes i will deny it , there was no such word said : i did say , mr. arnold , i went to bed then . att. gen. the jury must take notice of this , that upon his examination , he says , he came home by nine ; which is before the thing was done : but by proof he did not come in till twelve , which was after the thing was done . mr. holt , we will give you now gentlemen an account of this mans principles . record . this is the business , richmond says , they came together to their lodging before night , but he left him at the kitchin-fire , and went into another room to drink with some company ; and this mr. richmond says his bed was not made till twelve a clock , and that he himself went to bed about one of the clock , and that he heard the prisoner at the bar while he was pulling off his breeches , call to him , and therefore he took notice of that as a circumstance ; that he does particularly remember he did not go to bed till that time ; and he says he did not stir from that place after nine a clock . mr. thompson , there is a contradiction in that . record . there is no contradiction : the other witness says that he came along with him at nine a clock . mr. thompson , i will tell you where this is a contradiction . att. general , he says he came to the house at nine a clock , but he came not to bed till after one. record . the evidence does not go so far : richmond says they came to the kings-arms , and left him in the kitchin at nine a clock , and he went into his chamber and staid up till one , and all that time he did not come to bed. mr. thompson , so far it lies upon him to give an account where he was between nine and twelve . bridges . mr. holt , heark you sir , have you had any discourse with giles concerning the plot , and concerning the lords in the tower ? and what did he say to you ? mr. bridges , i had some discourse with him concerning the papists , he said that it was the best religion , and that those that were not of that religion should be damn'd : i alledged against him , and told him the contrary : i thought not . can it be such a religion said i , that will act such things against the king and the government ? says he , if any says there is such a plot against the king or the government , he is a rogue , and a thief . mr. holt , what did he say of the lords in the tower ? bridges , nothing more . giles , how long ago was this ? record . when was this ? bridges , this was , my lord , about a twelve month ago . mr. thompson , did he speak any thing to you further concerning the plot ? bridges , not further . giles , my lord , i beseech you i may speak to this man , do you hear , sir , were not these the words that i said when you charged me to be a papist , that i knew of no popish plot , and they that said i was a papist , or knew any of the plot , were rogues or whores , or worse . bridges , you said thus , that the papists were the best religion , and that those that were not of that religion were damn'd . giles , have not you been a papist sir ? bridges , i am not now . giles , will you say that i am a papist ? bridges , i say you defended it so much i thought you were . said i , i wonder it being such a good religion , that they vvould offer to act such a thing against the king and government . said he , he that says this plot is acted by the papists , is a rogue and a thief . giles , how long ago is this ? bridges , a twelve month ago ; you remember it well enough ; you remember when you sent for me to the george . walter moor. mr. holt , what discourse have you had with him concerning the plot. mr. thompson , what has he said about it ? moor , he said , if the lords in the tower were executed , there would be a greater war than ever was in england ; and swore that if these lords were put to death , it would cost more blood then ever was spilt . and i asked him again , why they should not be put to death if they should deserve it ? for if a poor man had done such a fault , he would be hanged out of the way presently . he said again , they did not deserve it , for there was no plot at all . giles , pray sir , who was with you when you say i said these words ? moor , i was at george taylers house . giles , did not you say that george tayler discoursed this with you ? mr. thompson , is this the man that spake it , upon your oath ? moor , yes this was the man. giles , what did tayler say to you ? do you think my lord , i would say such a thing to such a man as this is ? recorder , do you hear mr. giles , for that matter it is not the question , the man has sworn it , except the jury know of their own knowledge that the man is perjured , he is not so as to me . moor , it is the first time that i ever took an oath . mr. reynold . mr. holt , mr. reynold , what have you heard giles say concerning mr. arnold ? reynold , sir i vvas in company vvith john giles and another , and vve had discourse concerning one arnold , and john giles said — recorder , what was that ? reynold , i being in company with him , we fell in discourse about justice arnold , how he was wounded . record . where was it ? reyn. in monmouthshire , at langoone , the second day of may : john giles answered us , that he could not see but he wounded himself . recorder , what day do you say ? reynold the second day of may. recorder . he did discourse the th day of may at vske , i would faign know when he came through glocester . mr. thompson , what did he say about mr. arnold ? reynold , he thought that he wounded himself , says his wife , how could he wound himself in his arms ? said he , it was himself or some of his friends . recorder . or some of his relations . reynold . some of his friends . mr. hobbs . mr. thompson , mr. hobbs , pray tell how you found mr. arnold when he was wounded . mr. hobbs , i found mr. arnold bleeding . mr. thompson , tell what wounds there were . mr. hobbs , two in his arm , two others upon the face , another upon the throat , which bled very much ; another two upon the breast , and one in the belly . mr. thompson , what depth might that be ? mr. hobbs , two inches and an half long . mr. thompson , where else ? mr. hobbs , there was another upon his breast . mr. thompson , what depth ? mr. hobbs , they were not very deep , but there was one upon the belly six inches and an half ; there was two through his arm , and a wound and several bruises in his head. mr. thompson , this is likely to be a fine contrivance , that he should do it himself , as likely as that sir edmundbury godfrey put his own sword through his body after his neck was broke . a great shout given . l. mayor do you believe a man could wound himself so ? mr. hobbs , no sir. record . i believe a man could do it , but i believe a man would not do it to himself . fifteen or sixteen witnesses more for the king , that were attending in the court were not examin'd , the court being in some haste , and the king's council not pressing to have them examin'd , there being so full evidence : nor was there one word replied to the prisoners witnesses , they being all either frivolous or contradictory . mr. darnal , may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am of council for giles the prisoner at the bar , and i must needs say there has been a strong evidence given against him , and if i were sure he was concerned in this barbarous attempt upon mr. arnold , i would not open my mouth in this cause : but if my brief be true , i make no question but to satisfy your lordship and the jury , nay and mr. arnold himself , that he had no hand in this bloody action . and first , my lord , in answer to the evidence that hath been given , there have been sworn among others , mr. richmond , mr. phillips , and one powel . first as to phillips's evidence , of what passed in discourse at the crown tavern in covent garden ; we have a witness here who vvas present at the same time , that will give you an account of the whole discourse , and that there were no such words said by giles in relation to mr. arnold , as dam him he had armour on ; and as to the evidence given by watkins , of what past at vske , about mr. herbert jones's and the prisoners making such speed through glocester , we have witnesses here my lord , that will satisfy your lordship and the jury , that when they came to glocester , though it was at the time of the general quarter sessions , yet they staid there four or five hours , at a publique house without the least sign of their apprehension of any pursuit ; which shews the improbability of any such discourse at vske : and my lord , as to the evidence of powel of what was said in darcies the cutlers shop at vske ; we have my lord a witness here that was present at that time , who will give your lordship and the jury an account , that the words said then by the prisoner , did much differ from what mr. powel swears ; besides the improbability that any man should be so weak to publish himself guilty of such a crime as this in this manner ; after his majesties proclamation out , with the promise of so great a reward to any man that would make a discovery of this horrid action : so far my lord we shall answer the evidence that hath been given , but to satisfy your lordship and the jury , that it was impossible the prisoner at the bar could be concern'd in this foul action , we shall prove to your lordship , that upon the th of april , upon the evening of which day this bloody attempt was made upon mr. arnold , the prisoner at bar came first to town ; and we shall prove that he came to town but at one a clock that day . we shall prove further , if my brief be true , by five or six substantial witnesses , against whom there can be no exception , how and where he imployed himself all that day , from the minute that he came to town : and that when he returned to his inn , about nine a clock at night , the maid of the inn lockt his chamber door after he was a bed , and kept the key of the chamber all night . and my lord , if all this be clearly proved , i make no doubt but your lordship and the jury and all persons here , will be satisfied that the prisoner at the bar is not guilty of this indictment . my lord we will first begin with mr. philpot. mr. philpot. mr. darnal , mr. philpot , pray do you acquaint my lord and the jury , what discourse past between you and giles at the crown tavern in covent garden . mr. philpot , we drank one bottle of clarret , mr. phillips came in when the bottle was almost ended . but by and by some friends came in , and they asked him , what news , sir ? said he , i hear of no news but a cruel assassination upon mr. arnold , but for my part i am sorry for it : but , said he , if any thing should be upon mr. arnold , it is a very strange thing . mr. darnal , were you there all the time sir ? mr. phil. yes sir , all the time . mr. darnal , and you heard no other discourse ? mr. phil. no he did not say dam him , nor sink him , for i hate such company . mr. holt , mr. john philpot where do you live ? mr. philpot , in long-lane . mr. holt , what sign do you live at ? mr. philpot , at the crown . mr. holt , what trade are you ? mr. phil. a salesman . mr. darnal , now we will go on to the discourse at vske , about their passing with such speed through glocester . record . mr. darnal , they do not pretend you were in great fear , but they say you said so . it is not the question , whether you did stay long at glocester or no ? but the question is , whether you told this man so ? because the man asked you , why you would leave the hair at the farriers in order to a fishing-line ? truly i was in great haste , for fear i should be taken up about the business of mr. arnold . mr. darnal , it is very true , and therefore we birng this evidence to shew the improbability that we should say any such thing , when it was false , and especially when it was to accuse our selves of a crime ✚ . herbert jones mayor of monmouth . mr. darnal , mr. jones , pray give an account to the jury of your passing through glocester , and how long you staid there . mr. jones , my lord , i came with the prisoner . record . what day did you come through glocester ? mr. jones , i cannot positively tell you the day , we went out of town upon friday , we came to glocester , either wednesday or friday , and there we went to the old-bear in glocester , and there staid an hour before we went to dinner , it was a publick time , the quarterly sessions , and several people came to us to hear the news , we told them , and were as sorry for it as any persons could be , and did confess it a very ill thing . we went from the old-bear after we had din'd to the new-bear , and drank several pints of cyder . i believe by the oath i have taken , we were several hours in the town . mr. milbourn , do you know mr. arnold is acquainted with mr. giles ? mr. jones , i do believe mr. arnold has great reason to be acquainted with giles . mr. thompson , yes now he has . mr. mil. was he chief constable ? mr. jones , yes he was , and certainly mr. arnold in reason would take notice of the chief constable . mr. mil. mr. herbert jones , i am informed that you know this gentleman goes to church , and receives the sacrament . give an account what religion he is of . mr. jones , always a protestant , i saw him at church within this half year . giles , i can shew a certificate of my going to church , since i came to town . record . there are many people that can go to church to serve their turn . giles , and my lord i have taken the oaths of allegiance and supremacy . mr. thompson , an excellent protestant to discourse so of the plot , i must needs say that . john jones the cutlers apprentice . record . how old are you ? jones , between , and . record . hark you , do you know the danger of for swearing your self ? jones , yes sir. record . what is it ? jones , i am in danger of everlasting fire . record . very well . mr. darnal . my lord this is the apprentice to the cutler , in whose shop powel says we had such discourse : jones pray tell my lord , and the jury whether you were by , when one walter powel came into your masters shop , when he and giles were talking about giles his sword ? jones , sir , john giles , came in the morning , and brought a sword , my master was not within , and he told me , give this sword to your master to be mended ; so i took the sword , and laid it up till my master came in ; when he came in , i told my master of it , and when he came again this walter powel was in the shop , said giles to my master , did you mend my sword ? says he ; says my master , mr. giles , how came your sword broke ? have you been fighting with the devil ? no , says he , for he never met with arnold . peo . hiss 'm hiss . record . it does not become the decency and gravity of a court of justice , to be humming and hissing , when facts are trying of this great concernment . mr. mil. it was the common discourse there , that mr. arnold had been assaulted . record . you have been in a great combat , have you been fighting with the devil ? what did he say to that ? jones , he never met with arnold , my master asked him , mr. giles , have you been in some battle or other ? have you been fighting with the devil ? no , sir , for i never met with arnold . record . you did not hear his wife bid him hold his tongue . jones , no sir. mr. thom. did he tell you how he did break his sword ? jones , no sir. giles , my lord , here is mr. philpott can tell , that i was sitting down in a chair , and broke off a piece of the guard. mr. thom. you will do well to prove it sir. mr. mil. was there any discourse in the countrey about mr. arnold ? record . did they not talk any thing about killing the devil ? jones , no sir. mr. darn . if your lordship pleases we will call witnesses to give an account when we came to town , and where we were all that day ; and we will call the maid that lockt the chamber door after we were in bed , on the same night when this fact was committed . john howel . mr. darn . john howel , pray tell my lord and the jury when giles came to town ? howel , if it please you my lord , i came to town and john giles together . record . what time of day was it ? howel , it was twelve a clock . record . who is thy master ? howel , william richmond . mr. darn . what time of night was it friend , when you heard him call to your master , and bid him good night . howel , about , or a clock . mr. mil. you say about nine , you were at your lodging with him , did your party company with him ? how. yes sir , we did . mr. thom. where did you go at that time ? howel , we went into the chamber , and drank two pints of brandy . mr. thom. what time of night was that ? record . after two pints of brandy , i wonder how he can remember any thing . ann beron. mr. mil. tell what time of the night giles came in , where you were in his company ; what time of night it was ? record . speak as loud as thou would'st do if thou wer 't at home : when was this ? ann. the thursday after easter . record . the thursday in easter week , or the thursday in the next week ? ann. the thursday in easter week ; we were never out of company ; when he came home to his lodging i believe it was near ten a clock . record . where was your lodging at the kings arms ? ann. at the kings arms. record . good woman , did you go with him to whetstones park ? ann. no not i. record . were you with him at the artillery ground ? ann. no not i. record . were you with him in drury-lane ? ann. no not i. record . he did not go out of your company at all ? ann. yes about ten a clock . record . woman you must be mistaken , he came to town at twelve or one , and might be in thy company , but it is plain he went to a brokers in long-lane , and so to the artillery-ground at cripple-gate , for i guess it might be so : then they went to whetstones-park , and spent six-pence , and after that they went into drury-lane . giles , my lord , she don't say she was with us all the while , but we came to an house where she was , and several other people our neighbours . record . she says you did go out some time : now see whether i mistake you . ann. yes you do mistake me . record . he went out , did he ? ann. yes he went out after we came into the city , he and some others , and then they came back to me again in two or three hours . record . then you were two or three hours at dinner . now i ask you , after they came back , was you with him all the while ? ann , yes that i was . record . where was it ? ann , at the peacock . record . that is the place in drury-lane . ann , no , indeed , it is in covent garden . mr. darnal , when did he go to bed , do you know that upon your oath ? ann , we were in the inn between nine and ten a clock , nearer ten then nine , and i saw him sitting taking a pipe of tobacco . mr. darnal , what time was that ? ann , a little after ten i believe . mr. thomp . he sat there till he was call'd away to do his business . elizabeth crook . mr. darnal , elizabeth crook , pray do you tell my lord and the jury about what time giles went to bed ? crook , indeed sir , he went to bed between ten and eleven . mr. darnal , how long was it that he came to his lodging before that ? can you say how long he was in the house before he went to bed ? crook , i asked him if i should take away his candle , he said he would put his candle out , but i might lock him in , and take the key ; but i did not do it . mr. thomps . did he go to bed as soon as he came in ? crook , no , i think he did not . record . you made the bed , did not you ? crook , i did . recorder , upon your oath , what time of night was it ? crook , i think it was nearer eleven than ten. record . did you make the bed after he went into it ? what time did you make the bed upon your oath ? crook , i made the bed about ten a clock . record . i ask you , do you remember richmond came into you and asked you any thing about making the bed ? do you remember he was in the chamber ? crook , in whose chamber ? record . did richmond come in when you were making the bed ? crook , he was not there that i knew of . rich. was not i in the chamber when you made the bed ? crook , no , i don't remember you . rich. my lord , when this maid went to make the bed , i went into the room after her , and had some discourse with her , we lean'd together upon the window , and i told her i was in love with her , i told her , if she liked of it , i would marry her the next morning : i did it to make merry , for indeed i am a married man. record . what time a night was it ? rich. about twelve a clock . record . if you forget your other sweet-hearts , can you remember this ? do you remember now he was there ? crook , i remember he was there . giles , mr. arnold , pray do not laugh at my witnesses and make may-games at them , it is not the part of a gentleman . rich. and she told me that he would lie by himself though the house was very full . record . do you remember any such discourse ? crook , i do remember that mr. richmond did come in . kings coun. what time of night was it that he was making love to you ? crook , i think about ten a clock . kings coun. time passed merrily away with you then . rich. it was twelve a clock . crook , why do you say so ? our house was all quiet presently after eleven . rich. why will you say so ? were not we singing and roaring together ? record . come don't be angry , you were not angry when you were making love together ? rich. i am not angry indeed sir. edward james . mr. mil. tell my lord what time of night giles came into his lodging , and where it was ? james , it was in easter week he came in , and so were drinking at the kings arms , in st. martins-lane , and from dinner , and from nine a clock . record . how ? you did not dine there , you din'd at the peacock . james , yes we din'd there , but from nine a clock , we were there till twelve . record . how do you know ? james , i was there with him . record , after twelve a clock you say you left him ? james , yes . record . where did you leave him . james , in the kitchin. record . are you sure ? james , yes my lord , i am sure of it . record . i ask you , because i have an unhappy memory , you are sure it was twelve a clock when you saw him in the kitchin , and here is a maid saw him go to bed at eleven . record . have you any more ? you know the matter that was the occasion of the dispute t'other day i would not by any means , that in a cause of this publick concern , there should be any pretence for any to say they were surprized ; therefore call as many witnesses as you please . robin gibbon . mr. mil. what can you say when mr. giles came into his lodging ? gib . it was about ten a clock . i gave his horse half a peck of oats . mr. mil. where ? gib . at the kings arms in martins-lane . mr. mil. do you know how long he staid before he went to bed ? gib . no sir , i cannot tell . mr. thom. he speaks honestly , this man. record . have you any more ? giles , there is another , a translator , my council knows his name . john chadwick . record . what is your name sir ? chad. john chadwick . record . go on . chad. i say this john giles was at my house between eight and nine a clock . record . where is your house ? chad. my house is — record . can you say any more to it ? chad. no. elizabeth . record . what have you to say ? eliz. sir i went with mr. giles home , and it was between nine and ten a clock , and i saw him in his lodging , and i saw him in the morning . elizabeth crook . record . are you sure he went to bed when you made it ? crook , it was between ten and eleven a clock . mr. thom. you see how they contradict one another . record . is your name james ? james , yes sir. record . you say you are certain you left him in the kitchin at twelve ? james , yes sir. record . but here is one that says he went to bed by eleven . james , o lord no sir. mr. holt , these are your own witnesses mr. giles . mr. thom. you see how they contradict one anonother . peter powel . powel , my lord , i met some of my countreymen about an hour before night . mr. thom. what day ? powel , about thursday sir. mr. thom. what week was it in ? powel , i believe in easter week , and i heard them say that mr. arnold was come to town , and mr. herbert and he was to have an hearing the next day . record . how long was you in his company ? powel , i had been in my friends company about an hour before he came , and we staid till near nine or thereabouts , and then we parted , and i never saw him afterwards , till last munday was seven-night . roger how. record . what say you ? how. mr. giles was in my company , and staid till about nine a clock , or thereabouts , and then we went away , and i saw him no more for that night . record . have you any more ? giles , no. then sir george jeffreys the recorder , gave directions to the jury to this effect : gentlemen of the jury , the evidence has been very long , and i know you have taken particular care to write down and take notice of all the circumstances that have been offer'd to you in this case : according to the best of my memory , i shall refresh yours with such of them as i apprehend to be most material in this cause ; and if any thing happen to be omitted , others will supply it . in the first place i am to take notice , and i think i am bound to do it , in discharge of my own conscience and of my duty to the court , that certainly if the prisoner at the bar be guilty of the offence of which he now stands indicted ; the punishment that we can inflict upon him , cannot be proportionable to the offence : for the offence is too great for any punishment that the law can inflict , for men are not presumed to be guilty of such actions as this ; and therefore the law has not proportioned punishments to them , because it presumes no man to be guilty of so base and barbarous an action as this ; and because it never could be presumed that any man would be guilty of such offences , therefore the law has not provided punishments proportionable to them . but this is not your question , the question before you is , whether this man be guilty or not guilty ? that there was a popish plot , no man sure doubts at this time aday . certainly there can be none here under so strange an infatuation , as in the least to doubt but that there was a plot ; especially , when so many persons upon full and clear evidence and tryals , have been convicted as instruments in that bloody tragedy . but you are not to make use of these things by way of evidence against the prisoner at the bar : but only in the general to premise some things by way of intraduction to their particular evidence , and i must plainly tell you ( for it is fit it should be mention'd ) that if any villany can come near that horrid murther of sir edmundbury godfrey , this does ; and i am sorry with all my heart , that within the government of the city of london , or so near it , there should be such a barbarous attempt as this made and concealed so long . it would not be strange to hear of such villanies committed in other popish countries : but for the honour and credit of that religion which i hope we shall maintain with our lives , that is , the protestant religion , i say in a protestant countrey , where the protestant religion is profest , i never heard of such a barbarous act committed before this one ; because our principles of our religion will not allow us to commit such villanies by any dispensation whatsoever . justice and truth , and righteousness , are the things that our religion teaches us . god almighty , and our blessed saviour jesus christ , by whom alone all mankind must be saved ; have commanded the contrary . their religion may dispense with such villainous actions ; but this i can say in vindication of ours , ours cannot do it ; nay it would be no religion if it could . in the next place , gentlemen , all circumstances of time and place , of men and things , should be taken notice of ; for dark cases must be made appear by circumstances : for as i hinted before , no body calls witnesses when they do such facts and works of darkness , the works of the devil , that is the father of all such works . i do not mean the devil , mr. arnold , but i mean they are the works of the devil . belzebub himself , the prince of devils , can be only an instrument and an agent in affairs of this nature . another thing that is fit to be taken notice of by you , is this , that by way of circumstance , whatever has been said one way or another , relating to the plot , relating to the business of sir edmundbury godfrey , is not to be taken notice of , as evidence against the prisoner . you shall have a faithful account of what has been said by every witness , both for and against him ; for right is to be done . our law comes even to a proverb , we must give the devil his due ; we must give every body right . you know that this business was deferr'd , that the prisoner at the bar might be left without all manner of excuse ; for if innocent , all mankind would be glad to have him cleared ; if guilty every honest man would have him convicted . now this being premised , the evidences against the prisoner are several , and i will as far as i can , give you an account of them . and first of all , it is not doubted but mr. arnold has behaved himself like an honest man , and as every honest man ought to do for the interest of his religion ; for there is no man can do too much , if he does it legally for the preservation of his religion ; of that religion which he is bound to rely upon for the salvation of his immortal soul. now , says mr. arnold , in the first place he gives an honest account of his being one night , on thursday night in easter week , at the devil tavern , about nine or ten a clock with some friends , and he went out between ten and eleven a clock , and his own servant not being there ; he did intend to call some other servants by . but as it happen'd , he went away without them , and he perceived two men in campaign cloaks follow him into bell-yard . he does take it upon his oath , that about the middle of the lane , there happen'd to be a candle coming out , and one of these two , that he did so observe to dog him , having a campaigne cloak upon him , and likewise a coat lin'd with red , he did observe came before him ; and he doth take it upon his oath , that he does believe the prisoner at the bar to be that very man that so came before him ; he does say that he had a perfect sight of him , and he does say that the reason why he should believe him to be the man , is , that he does remember his face , and he knew his voice . he tells you likewise that there were persons cast a cloak over his head , ran him into jackanapes-lane , fell upon him , bruised his head , and wounded him in several places ; particularly he mentions that there was at the same time , said by one of them , pray for the soul of captain evans ; and at the same time , which is a wonderful circumstance , dam the dog he has got armour on , cut his throat . he says that one man held him up by the chin , having several passes made at him , and he says he had something or other to preserve him ; but notwithstanding that , he was run into the side , there was three men he does tell you , and that one overtook him in bell-yard , and he continues to swear it was the prisoner at the bar , according to the best of his understanding and conscience ; he says it was he , and he discovered him by the sight of a candle . besides this , which is a material circumstance , some other persons being brought to mr. arnold about it , mr. arnold did not tax them ; but did positively tax that person to be one of the persons . but he tells you he suffer'd by passion , as i cannot blame any man for being in a passion at such a time . but his witnesses determine the thing , that that is the man , and he did positivly say it , his memory being better settled then he could at first pretend to ; but however , he gives that for another evidence , that he was not deceived in the person . this is the substance as i remember , i would not do any injury to the prisoner , by repeating any thing that has not been said ; nor would i do any injury to the evidence for the king , in omitting any thing that occurs to me . the next is one phillips , and he tells you that the next day being friday , about six or seven a clock at night , he happen'd to be in company with him at an house in covent-garden , and having some discourse concerning arnold , and concerning that bloody , base , and foul attempt that was made upon him , he was so far from having the bowels of an english man , or any thing of christianity in him , that he does say he broke out into this extravagant expression , saying , dam him , rot him , he had armour on , dam him , rot him , he had armour on : i speak it twice over , because mr. arnold tells you that the persons , during the fact was committing , said , damme cut his throat , he has armour on . the next person comes and tells you , at a certain place in monmouthshire upon the th of may following , that he went with one of the richmonds to this giles , and had some discourse : says he , how chance you have not been as good as your word , about providing me horse-hair to make fishing-lines , and you promised to leave it at a farriers in glocester ? how chance it was not so ? he immediately adds , we were in such extraordinary hast , because we thought we were pursued about the business of arnold . and that he gives as the reason why he did not stay at glocester . if in case it had not been so , why should he come and tell him he could not stay about the business of the hair , because he was like to be pursued about the business of arnold . the next thing , gentlemen , is concerning one powel ; powel , he tells you , that he being at one darcies house , a roman catholick , that is a sword cutler that lives , i think likewise , at vske . and it seems the prisoner at the bar came to him to have his sword mended . by the way i should have told you that the prisoner at the bar before the fact was done , did enquire at a place where he might have a good rapier : that was before the fact was done . the witness spake of it last , which was the occasion that i did not give it you in order . he asked where he might have a good rapier ? but now to come to darcy , darcy having been very familiar with him , inquired , wherefore , having had his sword so lately , he should have it to mend already ? have you , said he , been fighting with the devil ? immediately upon that he swears the prisoner return'd , no , but with dam'd arnold . and upon that his wife pluckt him by the coat , and bid him hold his tongue . i think that is the substance of what he swears . he says there were by at that time the prisoner at the bar , the apprentice to this darcy , and a woman , that is the prisoners wife . william richmond he comes and gives you a further account , that he being in his company ; he tells you , they went to some place in the city to inquire after their friends , and afterwards went to the artillery to see the exercise , then to long-lane , from thence to whetstones-park , and afterwards to drury-lane ; and that about nine a clock at night they came to their inn , and he left giles taking a pipe of tobacco in the kitchin , and went up into his chamber with some other people drinking and making merry ; and he does positively say that between eleven and twelve a clock at night , he saw the servant maid come up into the room , and did see she was making the bed ; that he seem'd to be a little surprized that any body should make a bed at that time of night ; which occasioned him to go in to her , and ask her the question . the answer that he had was very material , that she said , there is a gentleman below that i must make this bed for , he does not desire to have any body lie with him . that was the answer the maid gave . there was , he says some little talk of love between him and the maid , and that he positively says was near upon twelve a clock . he says that after this , he went into his own chamber , and continued in his own chamber till nigh one , and about one , being pulling off his breeches , the prisoner at the bar came and knocked at his chamber door and spake to him ; and that was near one a clock at night . but it is plain , during that time the prisoner was not in his chamber , if you believe him ; nor indeed is there any account given of the prisoner from nine a clock till near one , till he knockt at his door , as he was pulling off his breeches and going to bed. as to the answers that are given by the witnesses of the other side , i shall give you them , when i descend to give you the testimonies of the other side . to give you yet this further testimony , say they , we do not only give you this testimony that he is guilty of this fact , but we do give you an account of him , that he is very likely to do such a thing ; for he is an ill man in himself . as on the other side , no man can give a better testimony to himself in matters that are dark and obscure , than the testimony of his conversation , that he is upright in his conversation ; and therefore cannot be thought guilty of so base an action : so , they think they give a good evidence against him , that he is an ill man in himself ; and therefore because he is an ill man , he may be guilty of such a thing . and to prove that , they call up these witnesses . first of all , one bridges comes and gives you an account , that discoursing with him concerning the papists , he damn'd the plot , and said that all were rascalls that were not papists ; and if in case that the lords that were in the tower should happen to suffer , it would be a bloody day , and it would make bloodier work in england than ever was known : which shews he is a bloody ill man. the prisoner ask'd him , if he were not a papist ? it s likely he was a papist before , or he would not have trusted him so . and this is one circumstance to prove that he is an ill man , that he hath given out such and such expressions . there is another , one reynolds , who comes and gives you an account of his having some discourse with him afterwards about this business of mr. arnold , that the prisoner talked slightly of it , and said that he might do it himself . this , gentlemen , i take in general to be the substance of what hath been offer'd for the king. if there be any thing else that doth not occurr to my memory , if it doth to yours , you will do well to consider of it . say the council for the defendant , and that every man of the long robe ought to say , that if the person , which is the prisoner at the bar , were guilty of such a barbarous thing as this , no man would offer to open his mouth . and therefore they offer evidence for their client as they are instructed to offer to you ; and you are to try whether their client be guilty . say they , you first call one phillips to give an account , and as to what phillips says about the business in covent-garden , about dam ' him , and rot him , they bring one that was there all the time , and says he , i was by all the time , and i heard no such words . so far was he from making any particular reflections upon mr. arnold , that he cried it was a very horrible , a very barbarous thing . nay , says he , to give credit to this testimony of his , i never use to keep company with them that use such words , as , damn him , and rot him ; as he says . the next witness , is mr. herbert jones , he comes and tells you , i went wiith him from london , i went with him to glocester , i staid at an inn call'd the old-bear , and staid and dined with him there . i went after that to the new-bear , we went thither and drank cyder together ; and this was very publick : for several persons that lived in the town came to us , and enquired after the business of arnold ; and if in case we had been under any such jealousy as that was , we would not have staid so long , as says he , we did . say they on the other side , we do not say that you did not stay in glocester ; but , say they , by way of objection against the prisoner at the bar , we say that you your self , on the fifth of may , said , in answer to the person that came to ask you , why you had not brought the hair , that he might go a fishing ? you said , we durst not stay , for fear of pursuit upon the account of mr. arnold . this you your self said , and by saying so , you have contracted that guilt in point of circumstance , which is objected by us against you . this is the answer given to that that mr. jones says . the next person that comes to give you an account , is one john jones , who is the apprentice : says he , you bring a witness against me that i said such a thing at vske , at darcy's the sword cutlers , and you say the apprentice was by : and he gives you this evidence : says he , i was by at such a time as the man speaks of , and being by at that time , i do very well remember , that there was a discourse concerning some great conflict that mr. giles had been in , and that giles's wife was by , and so was t'other person that gave the evidence that such a discourse there was of fighting with the devil ; but now he inverts the saying of t'other man , and says that he should say , he never met with arnold the devil . the one answers , when the thing was asked him , whether he had been fighting with the devil ? no , not with the devil , but with arnold . the other swears , he did not meet with the devil arnold . he tells you likewise his wife did not pull him by the cloaths , and bid him hold his tongue . the next witness is howel , and he gives you an account that he came with him to town ; he gives you an account how he staid with him , and came along with him till nine a clock at night : for he does not pretend to give you an account after nine . then comes crook , and crook , that is the maid servant ; she says , i cannot positively tell you when he came in , but i will positively say that i made his bed about ten , and before eleven i asked him about his candle , he bid me lock the door , and he would put out the candle himself ; and she went away and left the candle . and that is very material ; for the time this fact was committed , was between ten and eleven . this is what the maid says . now there is this answer to what she swears . she first of all forgot that ever richmond , that speaks concerning the breeches and other circumstances , that ever he was there at all : but you hear he has refreshed her memory with a love story , that he was in the room , and she does agree in these very circumstances he speaks of : so that that gives credit to the testimony of richmond , and puts a disparagment upon her testimony , since she could be so exceeding forgetful , as not to remember such a circumstance . the next is an old woman , and she swears point-blank she was with him most part of the day ; and that she was with him at dinner , and was with him till nine of the clock at night , and then went to bed. and though she seem'd to differ and blunder in some part of her testimony , because she knew nothing of his going into longlane and other places ; however she gives an account about the time of nine a clock , that she left him in the kitchin , and then she went to bed. the next witness is james , and james doth positively swear that he was drinking with him in the kitchin , till past twelve a clock at night ; but that cannot be true , if the wench that made the bed , swear true : for she swears she made the bed before ten , and he went to bed before eleven ; so that he could not be a-bed before eleven if he swears true : and he could not be in the kitchin at twelve a clock , if she swears true . gentlemen , richmond's man he gives you no further an account than what runs square to his masters testimony , that he left him at nine a clock at night , and he heard him call at his masters chamber about twelve ; and so they punctually agree . but he gives no manner of account where he was between nine and twelve , between which hours this fact was done . next gentlemen , there have been some more witnesses called for the prisoner at the bar , who give you an acount where he was before such time as he came to his lodging . now it is not denied on either side , but that he might be till within night at that house they speak of ; but the account that is desired to be given of this matter , is to know where he was between nine a clock and twelve , when this fact was committed . these , gentlemen , according as it occurs to me , are the substantial parts of the evidence , both on the one side and the other . the matter therefore resolves it self within this narrow compass , if upon what you have heard from mr. arnold , attended with the rest of the circumstances that you have heard sworn by the witnesses , you do believe the prisoner at the bar is guilty : for he might be at his lodging at nine a clock , and he might be at his lodging at twelve or one , and yet he might do this fact : for it is certain it was not a sudden matter , for it was a thing done preparedly ; and therefore you must not expect that men that are guilty of such barbarous designs as this , will lay their designs open . to be sure , whoever it was did this fact upon mr. arnold , they would do it so as to make themselves appear as innocent as could be . it is not a matter to be relied on , that because this man was innocent in st. martins lane , therefore he did not do this thing in bell yard . there is another circumstance against the prisoner at the bar , that he should imagine , notwithstanding all this , that mr. arnold had wounded himself ; but when he found that that was not very probable , that a man could wound himself so , by reason of several places that he received his wounds in , he would have it , that though he did not do it himself , yet some of his friends might . indeed if he be guilty , some of his relations might do it : but certainly he was no friend that did it . it is against nature for any man to believe , that any person should put himself to so much trouble ; if he had a mind to dispatch himself , he might have done it with much more ease , and not have put himself to that trouble : for men , when they have a mind to do the business , they do not use to take such a deal of pains to stabb themselves here and there . thus , gentlemen , the evidence being very long , and the circumstances very many , things may occur to you , that do not at present to me . yet i must tell you again in a matter of publick example , the proof ought to be very great , to convict a man of such an offence : but you must not expect it should be so clear , as in a matter of right between man and man , and of things that are done in the face of the sun. it was done in the dark . the devil that set them a-work , does fill them with cunning enough to keep this attempt as concealed as may be : and therefore circumstances of this nature must be wonderfully considered : an account of which mr. arnold himself gives you , and he does believe in his conscience the prisoner at the bar to be the man. the jury with-drew , and having debated together about half an hour , returned , and brought the prisoner in guilty . which done , the court adjourned till the saturday following , the seventeenth of july : at which time the court being sate , john giles was brought to the bar , to whom the right worshipful sir george jeffreys , delivered himself to this effect : you the prisoner at the barr , you have been indicted for a very vile offence ; an offence in its nature that deserves a greater punishment than the law can inflict upon any such offences . there is a jury has convicted you of this crime , against whom , had you had any objection , you might have made your challenge . and now you stand convicted here , it is only the duty of the court to pronounce that judgment against you , which they think may be reasonable to inflict upon such an offender . for i must needs say , it was one of the basest and most barbarous actions , that mankind could possibly be guilty of ; an action of so much filth and baseness , that the law could not fore-see any man would be guilty of ; and therefore hath not made provision for a punishment proportionable to it . but in as much as we understand by mr. arnold you have a charge of children , therefore the court takes some consideration ; not that they think to extend any mercy to you for your own sake , but a regard they think they are bound to have for those that have not offended ; but we ought to have a care to let the world know we do not intend only a punishment to the offender , but by that to terrifie all other people from being guilty of such extraordinary villanies . and because they will have regard to your posterity , therefore they do not think fit to put so great a fine upon you as this fact does deserve . but on the other side , they have thought fit you should be made an example of , and that you should suffer as great a corporal punishment as the law will allow . and therefore in the name of the court , i do pronounce this to be your sentence : that you be put in the pillory towards lincolns-inn fields , as near the place where this barbarous fact was committed , as may be ; and there you are to stand from the hour of twelve till one , one day , at noon-day : and on another day from the hour of twelve till one , over against grays-inn in holbourn . and another day between the same hours , just by the may-pole in the strand . these three several days you are to stand in the pillory , and to have a paper put upon your hatt , whereby it shall be signified , the offence of which you stand convicted . and next , to deter all others from committing the like , the court does think fit likewise to award , that you should pay to the king the sum of five hundred pounds , and that you be committed in execution , till such time as you pay that money . and because it is both to be a punishment to you , and a terror to all other such villains , you are to find sureties for your good behaviour during life . sentence being pronounc'd , and the prisoner removed from the bar , richard cavanaugh was brought to the bar , and prayed to be discharged : but was by mr. arnold charged with threatning one phillip staneright , one of the kings witnesses ; for which reason , and for that also a new evidence was come in against the said cavenaugh , with some farther charge relating to mr. arnold's business , the court thought fit , for want of bail , to continue him a prisoner . then mr herbert appeared , and prayed to be discharged from his recognizance to appear at the old-baily ; but being accused by a woman for calling her whore , jade , and very ill names , and holding up his staff at her , and threatning to beat her , for being a witness against his friend giles ; as also for taking away her horse as she was going to the mill , and the reason was , because she was to be a witness in london against giles . but she being a married woman , and none appearing that would be bound to prosecute him for it , he was not bound over to answer it , till another complaint came in against him , which was immediately made by mr. ballard and another gentleman ; who charged mr. herbert , that , in whitson-week last , upon a discourse for chusing knights of the shire for monmouth , and the saying of one in the company , that it was thought mr. arnold would stand for it , mr. herbert should make answer , i will circumcise the other side of his cheek first , or he must have the other side of his cheek circumcised first . upon which the court ordered he should not be discharged , but remain bound upon the former recognizance to appear there next sessions . and the recorder gave him several sharp reprehensions for his malicious and unmanly words and proceedings . this being the second of the kings witnesses , and a woman that he had barbarously treated ; still passionately giving the reason , that they were witnesses against his friend john giles , as it was proved on oath before the court by several witnesses . then sir thomas allen acquainted the court that a gentleman had informed him the day before , that mr. herbert told him that mr. arnold wounded himself , and cut his own throat ; which the court lookt upon as an high effect of a malicious ingratitude , mr. arnold having besought his majesty , when mr. herbert was in newgate , to have his release . mr. arnold replied , that mr. herbert had been more ungrateful to his majesty , who had graciously pardoned him greater offences , and lately : for he had spoken worse of his majesties person and government than he had done of him , as it had been proved before his majesty ; and of which he believed his majesty was well satisfied . the court told mr. herbert he was a shame to all englishmen , and bound him by recognizance to appear and answer this offence at the kings bench bar the first day of the next term. finis . in obedience to an order shewed to me , made by the right honourable the lords spiritual and temporal in parliament assembled , i have perused these papers ; and according to the best of my remembrance , upon this distance of time , they do contain the substance of what passed at the trial of giles . geo. jeffreys . the tryal of sr. miles stapleton bar. for high treason in conspiring the death of the king, &c. at york assizes on the th day of july, before the right honourable sir william dolben knight, one of the justices of the court of kings bench and william gregory, esq; one of the barons of the court of exchequer then judges of assize for the northern circuit : to which is added the tryal and condemnation of mr. thomas thwing for high treason at the summer assizes before. stapleton, miles, sir, - , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of sr. miles stapleton bar. for high treason in conspiring the death of the king, &c. at york assizes on the th day of july, before the right honourable sir william dolben knight, one of the justices of the court of kings bench and william gregory, esq; one of the barons of the court of exchequer then judges of assize for the northern circuit : to which is added the tryal and condemnation of mr. thomas thwing for high treason at the summer assizes before. stapleton, miles, sir, - , defendant. thwing, thomas, d. , defendant. [ ], p. printed for richard baldwin ..., london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of s r. miles stapleton bar. for high treason , in conspiring the death of the king , &c. at york assizes on the th . day of july , . before the right honourable sir william dolben knight , one of the justices of the court of kings bench , and william gregory , esq one of the barons of the court of exchequer , then judges of assize for the northern circuit . to which is added the tryal and condemnation of mr. thomas thwing for high treason , at the summer assizes before . london printed for richard baldwin in the old-baily . the whole proceedings , against s r. miles stapleton baronet , &c. sir miles stapleton baronet , was indicted at a sessions of oyer and terminer at the west-riding of the county of york , and the indictment was removed by a writ of certiora●i to the kings bench , where sir miles stapleton having been arraigned and pleaded to the same not guilty , was sent down to be tried in the county of york . the indictment was as followeth . sir miles stapleton late of carleton in the county of york baronet stands indicted , for that he as a false traytor against our illustrious and excellent prince , king charles the second , his natural lord , not having god before his eyes , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , but by the instigation of the devil being moved and seduced , the cordial love , and true , due , and natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our lord the king should bear to him , and of right are bound to bear , wholy withdrawing , devising , and with all his power intending , to disturb the peace and common tranquility of this realm , and to bring and put our said lord the king to death and final destruction , and the true worship of god in this kingdom by law established and used , to alter to the superstition of the church of rome , and to move and stir up warr against our said lord the king in this realm , and to subvert the government of this kingdom , the th . day of may , in the thirty first year of our said lord the king's raign , at the parish of barwick in elmett in the said county of york , in the west-riding of the same county , with divers other false traytors unknown , did traiterously compass , imagin and intend , the death and final destruction of our said lord the king , and to change and alter , and wholy to subvert the antient government of this realm , and to depose and wholy to deprive the king of the crown and government of the said kingdom , and to root out the true protestant religion ; and to fulfil and accomplish the same most wicked treasons , and trayterous imaginations and purposes , the said sir miles stapleton , and other false traytors unknown , on the said th . of may in the thirty first year aforesaid , with force and arms , at the parish of barwick aforesaid , advisedly , devillishly , maliciously and traiterously , did assemble , unite and gather themselves together , and then did devillishly , advisedly , maliciously , craftily and traiterously , consult and agree , to bring our said lord the king to death , and final destruction , and to depose and deprive him of his crown and government , and introduce and establish the religion of the roman church in this realm ; and the sooner to fulfil and accomplish the said most wicked treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes ; the said sir miles stapleton , and other unknown traytors , then and there advisedly , maliciosly and traiterously , did further consult and agree to contribute , pay and expend divers large summs of mony , to divers of the king ▪ s subjects , and other persons unknown ; to procure those persons traiterously to kill our said lord the king , and to introduce the roman religion into this realm , against the duty of his allegiance , against the peace of our said lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in such case made and provided . clerk of assize , hold up thy hand , sir miles , thou hast heard the treasons and other misdemeanors whereof thou stand'st indicted , art thou guilty thereof or not guilty ? sir miles . not guilty . clerk of assize . how wilt thou be tried ? sir miles . by god and my country . clerk. of assize . culprit , god send thee a good deliverance . clerk of ass . sir miles , this understand you , that these gentlemen that are now to be sworn , are returned by the sheriff of this counry , to pass between our soveraign lord the king and you for your life ; therefore if you will challenge any of them , you are to challenge them as they come to be sworn and before they be sworn . the jury being called , mr. just . dolben took notice to sir miles that there were but few appeared , and therefore told him he would do well not to challenge too many of them , sir miles thereupon said he should not challenge many ; and enquired whether those that served on the lady tempests , mr. thwings and mr. ingleby's juries did now appear ? and the judge answered him , that if they did , care should be taken that they should not be sworn . then the jury being called to the book , sir miles challenged these , viz. sir david fowles , bar. rob. bell , gent. john eastoft , esq john dixon , gent. william bethel , esq the. wood , gent. william caley , esq rob. turner gent. towers driffeild , esq john beckwith , gent. marm. trueman , esq simon warrener , gent. john wright , esq gervaise hatfeild , gent. john green esq john coats , gent. and only two of the jury returned , viz. tho. fletcher , rob. gudgeon , were sworn . mr. just . dolb. sir miles , i see you must stay till the next assizes , for you challenge so many , here will not be a jury gotten . sir miles . if your lordship please , i shall be content , and do desire the jury may be called that served the first day ; nay all the three juries if you please . mr. just dolb. that is , you would chuse all of one way , and leave the others ; where is the indifferency of the trial then ? but come call them , i cannot deny it . the three juries called , and five challenged , viz. tho. worsely , esq roger strettwel , gent. samuel tennant , gent. roger lee , esq rob. bushel , gent. and these sworn , viz. sir tho. pennyman , bar. tho. rokely , esq william stone . thomas conyers . christopher tankerd esq who was excepted against by sir thomas stringer , as one that disparaged the evidence of the plot , and called his doggs by the names of oats and bedloe ; which the judge allowed to be a good exception ; but there being no witness in the court to prove it , he was sworn . mr. just . dolb. sir miles , you must stay till the next assizes , we have not a full jury . sir miles . here are gentlemen in the court , your lordship may take whom you please . mr. just . dolb. i can not do it without the kings council move for a tales , which as this case stands they will not do . and so he was remanded to prison , and remanet pro defectu juratorum until the th . day of july . and at the assizes then holden for the county of york before mr. just . dolben , and mr. baron gregory , was proceeded against as followeth . clerk of assize . sir miles stapleton hold up thy hand , thou standst indicted by the name of miles stapleton late of carleton in the county of york bar. &c. pro ut in the indictment . after not guilty pleadeded to the indictment and other formalites of court as before , these gentlemen following were called . sir thomas malliverer ; kt. challenged by the kings counsel . sir roger bekwith kt. challenged by the kings counsel . sir miles . are any challenged ? mr. just . dolb. yes , there are two challeng'd for the king. sir miles . i hope they must shew cause why they challenge them . mr. just . dolb. yes , they shall , but they are not bound to shew cause before the pannel be gone through , and then , if you desire it they will shew cause : but i suppose sir thomas malliverer marryed a kinswoman of yours , and if so t is a good exception . sir miles . i desire it may be proved . richard audbrough esq challenged by the king. john dodsworth esq challenged by the king. jsaac fairfax esq christopher bradshaw esq challenged by sir miles . these twelve following were called and sworn , viz. sir barrington boucher , kt. anthony franckland , esq sir john jennings , kt. john addams , esq richard hutton , esq francis battery , esq welbrough norton , esq francis fuldgam , esq tobias hodgson , esq humphry brooke , esq john beverly , esq thomas lee , esq cryer . twelve good men and true , stand together and hear your evidence . clerk of assize . sir miles stapleton , hold up thy hand ( which he did ) gentlemen , you of the jury that are sworn , look upon the prisoner and hearken to his charge ; you shall understand that he stands indicted by the name of sir miles stapleton , &c. pro ut in the indictment ; upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto pleaded , not guilty , and for his tryal hath put himself upon his country , which country you are , &c. then proclamation was made for evidence , and sir thomas stringer , one of the kings counsel aggravated the indictment as followeth . sir miles stapleton . i desire my lord the kings evidence may be put a part , not to hear what each other sweares . mr. just . dolb. no , no sir miles , that must not be , would you have the same for your witnesses ? sir tho. stringer , may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; sir miles , the prisoner at the barr stands here indicted of the greatest and blackest treasons that can be invented by the worst of men ; he stands here indicted for endeavouring to despose the king from his crown and dignity ; and by imagining and compassing the death of the king to alter the established government , and rout out the true protestant religion , and to establish the romish religion among us . gentlemen , to compass these wicked designes we shall prove there hath been several consults where the prisoner at the bar hath been , and where he hath contributed mony to carry on these wicked designes : and gentlemen i must acquaint you there hath been a horrid plot against the king and government , and i need not do it , for it hath been made notoriously known ; not only parliaments have declar'd it so , but there have been noblemen , gentlemen , and priests , nay , some men have been found guilty for carrying on the horrid designe and have receiv'd their deserts . this plot , gentlemen , is no new plot , not a plot of a day , nor of an age ; but a plot that hath been carryed on for a hundred years . my lords since we were delivered by god's mercy from the popish religion by the reformation ; ever since that time , the pope , the jesuits , the priests and those of the popish perswasion , have , my lords , been from time to time and ever since , endeavouring to carry on this wicked designe , and had desiroyed us long since , if we had not been by god almighty from time to time deliver'd from their power . and you gentlemen of the jury i must tell you , this plot was carryed on in queen elizabeths time ; and as they did in this plot carry on their designes , with the king of france , so then they carryed it on with the king of spain , at validolid in spain , the king of spain , he joyn'd with the popish partie here ; but it pleased the lord to take the queen to his mercy , before that plot was effected . and i must tell you , the same men of the same quality that carryed it on then , have now endeavoured to carry it on in these dayes . my lords , the king of spain , though he was a papist , yet it was so horrid a thing that he left them to carry on their wicked design , and god almighty did preserve the queen . my lords , they rested not here , but in king james his time they design'd to have destroy'd both king and parliament at one blow , and thereby the whole nation in its representatives , and this they managed by guy vaux and others . and all king charles his time the same plot was on foot , and pray how far did they bring it ? they brought it to the death of that gracious king , and the sad effects of a civil warr ; and they have brought it in these days , to raise officers , generals , major generals , and other officers , and proceeded so far that actual commission was deliver'd for destroying our king , and if this had not been by god's mercy prevented , what would have been the evil effects thereof ' ere this day ? and gentlemen , i must tell you that which is now before you is the greatest , and most wicked design that ever was before men ; and though you be of relations and kindred , yet i know if you have but conscience and right in you , you will give a verdict according to the justness of the thing and the evidence you shall have . sir john ottwith . we will call mr. smith first who will give you an account of the plot in general . mr. john smith call'd , and sworn . mr. just . dolb. mr. smith pray tell the court what you know of the plot. mr smith . i must speak of it then what i have done beyond-sea my lord. my lords , i remember when i had been first beyond-sea , i became acquainted with one abbot montague and mr. thomas car , at paris , and they told me then , if i came to the romish religion , what preferment i should have here in england ; they told me what friends they made in england , they nam'd several persons about the court , and several gentry in england which i did not then know to be papists . i stay'd sometime among them in paris , and all this while i did not pervert to the romish religion ; though they told me how many jesuits they had sent over into england . after i left france , i was going for rome , where i met with father anderton rector of the english colledge , and father southwel and father campian , who introduc'd me into the acquaintance of cardinal grimaldi , which is an italian name , but he is arch-bishop of that place , i happening there , they carryed me to speak to the cardinal , and he told me what likely-hood there was for introducing the romish religion into england , and he told me he would prefer me very well there , if i would turn to their religion ; and gave me letters to several friends in italy : at last i was perverted to the romish religion by vertue of this cardinal , and this gentleman at last askt me if i had a mind to study , i told him yes ▪ so i came into an italian colledge , and became acquainted with all the secular priests , both english , scotch , and french : who told me what interest they had made in england during the coming in of cardinal norfolk , and said there was but one man in the way , meaning the king ▪ and said they should soon remove him . mr. just . dolb. did they mean the king ? mr. smith . yes my lord , they said there was but one man in the way , and that they would soon make an end of him , and that they had men ready in england for it . after this , my lord , i left this italian colledge , and came to the english colledge ( for i had a mind to come there ) and i made friends with the jesuits : after i came to the english colledge , my lord , i was enform'd of one father anderton rector of that colledge , and father mondford , who told me that by means of this cardinal norfolk they did not doubt but to take the king out of the way ; and that they would give me all priviledges that could be for a young man in that time . when i was coming away , my lord , from rome , and had my letters emissaries , by cardinal perori● ( he sent for me when i was coming away , as is usually done to all scholars , and they kiss the popes toe , and he gives them his blessing and particular indulgence : which i had when i came into england ) said he to me there is one man in the way who hath made us fair promises but will performe nothing , therefore we must take him out of the way , and that i might be instrumental in the design ; with this my lord i took my leave of the colledge , and we came five into england as priests , and i made my application to the arch-priest which was in london , one purrat , and i was employ'd a long time by him in england ; but proclamations coming forth for the apprehending popish priests , i was constantly after at the portugal embassadors chappel , where this purrat had a chamber , wherein i discourst with several of the clergy in england , who said they doubted not but popery would soon be settled in england . i came after that to live at one mr. jennisons house where the clergy had several meetings , and we were all of opinion that course would be taken with the king unless he brought in popery . and this my lords is all i can say in general . mr. just . dolb. do you know of any conspiracy in yorkshire ? mr. smith . my lord i am coming to that . when i came to mr. jennisons house , there was one mr. thwing a priest , who has suffer'd as a conspirator , he was very well acquainted in the house before i came there , and did very much to perswade me that i would intreat mr. jennison to send his daughters to a place called dolbanck , where a nunnery was to be erected , and i knew several that were there . this mr. thwing came to me oftentimes and several other priests in this city , and they all prest me to it , but i was against it , knowing what their design was . mr. just . dolb. but do you know any thing against the prisoner ? mr. smith . all that i can say to the gentleman at the barr is this . i never saw him before to my knowledge ; but mr. thwing when we were at mr. jennisons and discoursing of the plot , askt me how they gave mony in bishopprick , i told him some gave more some less . mr. just . dolb. what were those collections for ? mr. smith . my lord it went among our selves under the notion of killing the king , and rooting out the protestant religion ▪ but we gave it out that it was for repairing a colledge at doway , which if granted , had been penal by law. then i askt him , how doth the collections go among you in yorkshire , some , saith he , give freely , but saith he , my uncle and his friends are engaged another way ; for saith he , they are going to make a founder for dolbank : several persons he named , among which he nam'd this gentleman . mr. just . dolb. what said he of sir miles ? mr. smith . he said sir miles was very zealous for promoting the roman catholick religion , and had contributed largly for the introduceing of it into england . bar. gregory . you say that amongst your selves you gave it out out that the mony that was rais'd was for the killing of the king and rooting out the protestant religion ; pray by what way and means was it to be done , was that ever discours'd among any of you , was it for raising of an army or what was it for ? mr. smith . where ever i was my lord , it was resolv'd that that was the most efectual means for the introduceing of popery . mr. robert bolron call'd , and sworn . sir tho. stringer . mr. bolron acquaint my lords and the jury , what you know of sir miles stapleton . mr. bolr. may it please your lordships , i came to live with sir thomas gascoyne in . as steward of his cole-works ; and was then a protestant , but was perswaded by mr. rushton , sir thomas and others to turn roman catholick ; when i had turn'd roman catholick , about , they came and askt me what i would do for the romish religion , if it should come to it ; i told them i would adventure my life in that cause , and then i went to barmbow-hall where i took the oath of secrecy , after that i went to barmbow-hall , where sir miles stapleton was at a consult in . mr. just . dolb. at what time in ? mr. bolr. it was about whitsontide , my lord. mr. just . dolb. that was the whitsontide after you had taken the oath of secrecy ? mr. bol. yes my lord. mr. just . dolb. who was there ? mr. bol. sir miles stapleton , sir tho. gascoyn , mr. gascoyn his son , my lady tempest , lawyer ingoldby , mr. thwing , father rushton and several others . baron gregory . what was there done at that consult ? mr. bol. my lord , the consult was about killing the king , and establishing a nunnery at dolbank near ripley ; sir tho. gascoyn gave . l. per annum , and . l. for killing rhe king ; and i remember very well pickering was mentioned about killing the king : and they askt sir miles stapleton what he would give ? and he said . l. for killing the king. mr. just . dolb. are you sure that in the presence of sir miles stapleton it was resolved the king should be killed ? mr. bol. yes my lord , it was resolved both by him and all others , that the king should be killed ; and my lord i heard them further say if the duke of york did not please , that they would serve him , as they would serve his brother . baron greg. who said these latter words ? mr. bol. sherby of stone-house said these latter words , and mr. shereburn said — mr. just . dolb. no matter what mr. shereburn said , what said sir miles ? mr. bol. the gentlemen said that sir miles should be a privy councellour , and that they would procure the duk 's consent to it . mr. just . dolb. is that all ? mr. bol. my lord i was further at a consult in seventy-eight , about the thirteenth or fourteenth of june . baron greg. what time was that ? mr. bol. the thirteenth day of june . and there it was agreed upon the taking of hull , the letting in of the french there , as the fittest place for the french to land at . mr. just . dolb. where was this ? mr. bol. at barmbow , and likewise they did discourse that my lord bellas had caused the block-houses to be almost ruined , that the french might more easily come in ; and we had all pardons for our sins . mr. lawrence mowbray called and sworn . sir tho. stringer . mr. mowbraey , tell my lords and the jury what you know against sir miles stapleton the prisoner at the bar. mr. mowbray . my lords , you have heard what mr. smith , and mr. bolron say to the plot in general , what i say shall be very breif in relation to sir miles stapleton and no further . sir miles stapleton being present with sir tho. gascoyn , my lady tempest , esq gascoyn and several others , they held several discourses concerning a design of killing the king , subverting the government , and bringing in popery , and accordingly they would fire london . bar. greg. when was this ? mr. mowb. this was in . where father rushton gave him an oath of secrecy , and he promised to be true to the design , and would venture his life and estate for the promoting so good a cause . mr. just . dolb. did you hear sir miles stapleton say hee would adventure his life and estate for the killing of the king ? mr. mowb. yes my lord. mr. just . dolb. and was it resolved at that consult ? mr. mowb. yes my lord. mr. just . dolb. and he consented to it ? mr. mowb. yes my lord , and took the oath of secrecy from father rushton . mr. just . dolb. this is not the time that mr. bolron speaks of . mr. mowb. no my lord he speaks of . and . this was in . mr. bolron . i have in . a collusive conveyance of sir miles stapleton's estate to sir john daney . mr. just . dolb. where did you see it ? mr. bol. i did see it at sir thomas yarbroughs , and he asking me when sir miles stapleton was at sir tho. gascoyns ; may it please you said i , i can tell you something where you are concerned with sir miles stapleton ; as soon as he heard that he blusht , and away he went and would hear no further . sir tho. stringer what say you mr. mowbray , of an indulgence you had ? mr. mowb. yes my lord i had an indulgence . mr. just . dolb. was it for the time to come , or the time past ? mr. mowb. it was for the time past ; for i was to enter into the rosary . sir tho. stringer . did you ever attend rushton at the altar ? mr. mowb. yes i did . mr. just . dolb. mr. bol. you say you saw a collusive conveyance made by sir. miles stapleton to sir john daney ; pray what was the forfeiture of it ? mr. bol. it was — mr. just . dolb. was it sir tho. yarbrough , or sir john daney you told of it ? mr. bol. i told it to sir john daney . mr. mowb. i drew a copy of that very conveyance . sir tho. stringer . truly my lord we want mrs bolron , one of the most material evidences against sir miles , being sick at london . mr. bayns called and sworn . sir tho. stringer . come mr. bayns declare to the court what you know against sir miles . mr. bayns . i know nothing against sir miles , only i have seen him at barmbow-hall in . sir tho. stringer . pray tell us this , whether you have observed in the year . sir miles stapleton come to several meetings with sir tho. gascoyn , and my lady tempest , and others ? mr. bayns . yes my lord i have . mr. just . dolb. but you do not know what discourse they had ? mr. bayns . no my lord , but i remember we were once discoursing about some nuns beyond sea , and they were called galloping nuns . mr. just . dolb. they were gallopers indeed . mr. just . dolb. sir miles , you have heard what hath been proved against you — sir miles . my lord there is nothing of truth in it at all ; i hope to make it appear to your lordship . i call god to wittness i am as innocent of what they say , as any child unborn . mr. just . dolb. that is an easie thing to say . sir miles . i hope to make it appear to your lordship . will your lorship please to give me leave to ask the witnesses some questions ? mr. just . dolb. that you may have allowancc in . sir miles . then i desire to ask bolron this question ; did you accuse me in your information to justice lowder ? mr. bol. no my lord i did not . sir miles . did i or any other desire you to keep any secret for me ? mr. bol. yes my lord ▪ i have been desired . mr. just . dolb. but did sir miles ever desire you ? mr. bol. no my lord he did not , but rushton did , when i was introduced by the priests to the consult . sir miles . did you and mowb. know that each other was concerned in the plot ? mr. bol. yes we did . sir miles . name the persons that were private at the consult . mr. bol. there was sir tho. gascoyn , my lady tempest , esq gascoyn , mr. ingleby , mr. thwing , mr. rushton , mr. addison , mr. metcalf and several others . sir miles . how long did the consult last ? mr. bol. some six or seven hours . sir miles . what servants were there ? mr. bol. i took no notice of the servants . sir miles . what room was it in ? mr. bol. in the old dining room . sir miles . how long did it last ? mr. just . dolb. six or seaven hours he tels you . sir miles . was there any other at sir tho. gascoyns ? mr. bol. none else that i can remember . sir miles . upon what occasion did he mention mowbray in his information to the counsel ? mr. just . dolb. there hath no information to the counsel been men tion'd here . sir miles . pray what was the occasion you were turn'd out of sir thomas gascoyns service ? mr. bolr. my lord i know not ; they say it was about a trunk ; sir thomas gaseoyne sent him to york and he was to come again : i know there was a design to take away mowbrays life , but i never told him so much , and my lady accused him for a ring , i never durst tell him this , but this was the thing contriv'd against him to take away his life , i can make it appear where he bought the ring . mr. just . dolb. what telst thou us of a ring ? canst not thou as well tell us it was for that he left sir thomas gascoynes service ? sir miles . when did you first become a protestant ? mr. mowbray . when i made my first information . bar. gregory . when was that ? mr. mowb. that was in , and a little before that i kept correspondency with father addison ? sir miles . i desire to know whether he saw a list of names . mr. mowb. yes i did . sir. miles . whose names were there ? mr. mowb. there was your name for one , and sir thomas gascoyns . sir. miles . what was it for ? mr. mowb. it was a list of those that were actors and contributors for killing the king. mr. just . dolb. you are sure sir miles stapletons name was in the list ? mr. mowb. yes my lord , i am . mr. just . dolb was it parchment , or paper ? mr. mowb. no , my lord , it was paper . mr. just . dolb. were you to assist in killing the king ? mr. mowb. my lord , i was not to be an actor in killing the king. sir miles . whether did i , or any other desire you to keep any secret for me ? mr. mowb. yes , father rushton did . sir miles . did i ever do it ? mr. mowb. no sir miles , you never did . sir miles . did any body else desire you ? mr. just . dolb. father rushton he tells you did . sir miles . was the discourse so loud that sir thomas gascoyne could hear it ? mr. mowb. sir thomas could hear well enough when he would . sir miles . was it in that you discover'd the plot ? mr. bolr. yes i went to london and there discover'd the plot in — i think it was . sir miles . you said i was not concern'd , you only accus'd sir thomas gascoyne and some other in your information but did not name me . mr. just . dolb. did he so , you may prove that upon him . sir miles . it was so in his information , my lord. mr. just . dolb. well then let it be so . call your witnesses . mr. lowder call'd and examin'd . sir miles . i desire mr. lowder to acquaint your lordships and the jury , what was in the information mr. bolron gave in , whether he accus'd me or no. mr. lowder . all i know of it is , that in january on sunday evening , as i think , about the th . day of the month robert bolron came to me and told me he had something of secrecy to impart to me , and i askt him if he would go into the house with me , he told me it was matter of high-treason ; i askt who was concern'd , he answer'd sir thomas gascoyne and several others ; then i order'd my clerk to bring a bible and pen and ink to take his information . i desired him to be very caurious , telling him that several lives were at stake ; at that he began to be fearful and chang'd coulor ; i askt him for what cause that fear was , he said if that were upon my conscience that was upon his , for concealing it so long , i should be as fearful as he . i bid him seriously consider what he had to say ; he said then he had deliver'd his information to mr. tindal ; well then said i why is it you come to me ? said i mr. tindal is to be at my house the th . day and i shall discourse it with him , and we shall take it together , mr. tindal did come , and bolron came and deliver'd in his information . mr. just . dolb. you did not give him his oath at that time ? mr. lowder . no my lord , for it seems he had not then deliver'd in his information , but only a writing of his to mr. tindal . bar. gregory . you took no examination then ? mr. lowder . no my lord , not at that time , but afterwards he came and he gave in his information to us , and i think we were about two hours about it ; and then he did not charge any person but rushton and sir thomas gascoyne ; but said he had more to recollect , well said i , if you recollect any more you may come again . bar. gregory . pray who did he name ? mr. lowder . he nam'd father rushton and sir thomas gascoyne ; he nam'd my lady tempest , but spoke that as from another . and when he came again he said he would trouble us with no more , but would go to the king and counsel to deliver in the rest . mr. just . dolb. he said then he should recollect more ? mr. lowder . yes my lord he did , and when he came again , he said he would not trouble us with it , but would inform the counsel of it : when we saw him so positive , he had a letter of recommendation from mr. tindal to the counsel ; and he lost that letter at ware , but he went on , and delivered his information to the counsel . mr. just . dolb. do you know it ? mr. lowder . yes my lord. mr. just . dolb. you cannot know it , were you there then ? mr. lowder . no , my lord , but i do know it . mr. just . dolb. how do you know it ? mr. lowder . i have a copy of the order under several of the counsels hands . mr. just . dolb. that is not evidence , you are not to speak what another man knows . but that is not the matter , it seems he went to give in his information to the counsel , for indeed he could not otherwise have been safe . mr. lowder . after this , he goes up to london again , and comes down and brings me another order of counsel to examin mr. mowbray and one hickeringil , and i askt him if he knew any thing about sir miles stapletons being concern'd in the plot , and he said no , he believ'd he was very clear . mr. just . dolb. you say , that bolron brought you another order of counsel to examin mowbray . mr. lowder . yes my lord. mr. just . dolb. did bolron bring you in writing what mowbray could say ? mr. lowder . my lord , i know not whether it was in writing or by word of mouth . mr. just . dolb. what was it he told you mowbray could say ? mr. lowder . he told me he could say he saw sir miles stapleton at barmbow when the consult was , but said he , there will others come against sir miles . mr. just . dolb. pray let us ask bolron that , did you say to mr. lowder you knew nothing against sir miles stapleton but there was others would do it ? mr. b lr . no my lord not that i remember . mr. lowder . bolron himself had never said any thing against sir miles . bar. gregory . did you ask bolron if he knew whether sir miles was concern'd in the plot or no ? mr. lowder . yes my lord i did , and he answer'd he knew nothing against him . mr. just . dolb. he was not then upon his oath ? mr. lowder . no not then , but after this he delivered his information , and did swear to the same effect , that mowbray did swear , that sir miles was at barmbow and that they all did conspire the killing of the king , and introduceing the romish religion ; and he said my lady tempest came to him , when he was in the passage , and said to him , mr. mowbray it is fitter for you to be treating of sir miles stapletons servants in the larder : and he askt me whether he had better go and apprehend sir miles or mr. ingleby first . mr. just . dolb. this was your discourse with bolron . mr. lowder . yes my lord. mr. bolr. may it please your lordship , i did not know then that mr. mowbray was at all concerned in the plot. mr. just . dolb. he tells you , how you told him what mowbray would say before he came to him , and what he would say against sir miles stapleton . mr. bolr. no my lord , i never said any such thing . mr. just . dolb. you say you did not know what mowbray would say , mr. lowder saith otherwise . mr. bolr. my lord , i did not know what it was before he brought it himself , and he brought it in writing . bar. gregory . mr. lowder did he tell you the perticulars , or he only said he was to depose things against sir miles stapleton ? mr. lowder . my lord he told me he could swear sir miles was at the consult at at barmbow , and did there conspire the death of the king and introduceing the romish religion . mr. just . dolb. how long was this mr. lowder , you had that discourse with bolron before mowbray came to give in his information ? mr. lowder . it was my lord two or three dayes before , and i ordered him to come again , when mr. tindal was to be at my house . mr. just . dolb. were you ever with mr. lowder , and knew when he and mr. tindal ordered him to come to him ? mr. bolr. i went to mr. mowbray , and we came to esq lowders , and there mr. tindal was ; but i knew nothing of what he had to say ; my lord mr. mowbray was there at that time he doth affirm . mr. just . dolb. mowbray , before you came to mr. lowders had you acquainted bolron with what you had to say ? mr. mowb. i might acquaint him i had something to say , but did not tell him the particulars . mr. just . dolb. did you tell him you had any thing against sir miles stapleton ? mr. mowb. t is possible my lord i might , but i am not positive in that . bar. gregory . did he tell you mr. lowder what mr. mowbray could swear against sir miles , and was it not the day which he tells you hereof ? mr. lowder . no my lord it was not . bar. gregory . it was not the same day ? mr. lowder . no , my lord , i shall be positive in it , if i be brought to my oath . mr. just . dolb. come another witness , sir miles . sir thomas yarbrough call'd and examin'd sir miles . i desire sir thomas , to speak , what he heard bolron declare what he knew of the plot after sir thomas gascoyne was taken . sir tho. yarbrougb . the th . of august mr. bolron came to my house about or a clock at night and knockt at my door , i thought him very unseasonable , but my servants looking out at the window askt who was there , he said a friend that would speak with sir thomas , my servant came and told me , and i ordered my servant to go down and bring him into my chamber , in the interim i put on a morning gown : as soon as he came in he told me he had an order of counsel to search all suspicious places for popish priests , and i have great cause to believe that there is one rushton a priest now at sir miles stapletons ; what would you have me to do , said i , would you have me to go with you my self ? he said no , but a servant : said i mr. bolron will you show me the order , and finding his name in the warrant i askt him was that the person that inform'd against sir thomas gascoyne ? his answer was this , that if i pleas'd he would shew me the article against sir thomas gascoyne , when i observ'd the article i askt him if he knew any thing of sir miles stapletons being concern'd in the plot : no i protest , saith he , i know nothing of sir miles stapleton's being concern'd in it , for he is a very honest gentleman ; only this i must say , that i know he hath made a collufive conveyance of his estate , and i believe most of the roman catholicks in england have done it for the securing of their estates . mr. just . dolb. what do you say to this , bolron ? mr. bol. my lord when i delivered in my information to the counsel i did accuse sir miles stapleton . mr. just . dolb. did you say this to sir thomas ? mr. bol. no i did not , if it was not in the information i gave to the counsel , beleive not one word that i have said . mr. just . dolb. it s possible it might be in the second information to the counsel that you accused sir miles : was sir miles stapleton's name in the paper you gave to him ? mr. bol. yes my lord. mr. just . dolb. this was the tenth day of august . had you then informed the counsel of any thing before that time against sir miles stapleton's being at barnbow hall at the consult ? mr. bol. may it please your lordship , i was called out when i was before the king and counsel , and there was something i did not deliver in . mr. just . dolb. then you did not do it at that time ? mr. bol. no my lord i did not . mr. just . dolb. i ask you again , before the tenth day of august . had you informed the counsel of any thing against sir miles ? mr. bol. no my lord i had not . mr. just . dolb. then it could not be in the information that you shew'd him . mr. bol. no my lord , it was at the second time . bar. greg. was it before you had this discourse with sir tho. yarbrough ? mr. bol. no , my lord it was not before that : i shall not speak one word of a lye. sir miles . every word you speak is a lye. mr. bol. it is no lye before this honourable court. mr. just . dolb. were these informations inclosed in the letter from the counsel ? mr. lowd . yes my lord , your lordship may see the letter mentions it , ( holding the letter forth in his hand with the informations ) which mr. just . dolb. took and silently read them over , after which he made his report thereof to the court. mr. just . dolb. mr. lowd . i have read all these things over , and there is nothing of any consult in them : how should then the accusation of sir miles be mentioned in them ? bar. greg. ido believe sir tho. you mistake times . sir tho. yarb. no my lord , i do not . mr. just . dolb. in the bringing of this order of councel to you , did you ask mr. bolron if he knew any thing against sir miles stapleton ? sir tho. yarb. yes my lord i did , and he said he beleived he was innocent . sir tho. stringer . pray sir tho. why did you ask him that about sir miles ? sir tho. yarbr . because i knew sir miles was related to sir tho. gascoyn , and was often there . sir tho. stringer . it seemed sir tho. you feared it . the lady yarbrough called and examined . sir miles . madam pray accquaint the court what you heard bolron say when he discoursed your husband . lady yarbrough . all i can say is , that i was in bed then and heard him say all these things , and i heard the order read , and there was mention of several at the consult , among whom there was no mention of sir miles stapleton . mr. just . dolb. does your ladyship very well remember that sir tho. yarbrough askt him if sir miles was concerned , and he said not that he knew of ? lady yarb. yes my lord , and he said more than that , for when he returned from taking priests in the afternoon , there was a great deal of company in the house , and when he came he brought one of the sons along with him , and they came into the hall , there mr. bol. was with them , and among the rest there was one mr. anby , who being a little merry , he takes him by the arm , and comes and bring him to us as we were sitting in the porch and said , heark you mr. bolron , i hear you are a discoverer of the plot ? yes i am said he : then i pray you , who are they that are concerned ? but he would not tell him ; so said he , is sir miles stapleton in it ? he answered he had nothing to say against sir miles , but he was an honest gentleman for ought he knew , excepting that he had made a collusive conveyance of his estate . mr. normanton called and examined . mr. norm . in june . came rob. bolron to me , and said , that sir tho. gascoyn would give l. for killing the king , and the lady tempest would have hang'd him for breaking a trunck , but now he would be even with her : and that sir miles stapleton kept priests in his house , but he would apprehend them presently , for he might have twenty pound a peece for taking of them . bar. greg. you say bolron told you this ? mr. norm . yes my lord he told me this in my own house , and i told him he might go to esq tindal , and i lent him eighteen pence , and borrowed him a horse in the town . richard pears , sir mile's man , called and examined . richard pears . my lord , bolron came to carleton . mr. just . dolb. carleton , what is that ? richard pears . to my master's house . mr. just . dolb. who is thy master ? pears . sir miles stapleton . mr. just . dolb. what then ? pears . i goeing to an ale-house where bolron was , he askt me how i did , i thank'd him . mr. just . dolb. did you know him then ? pears . yes my lord , and he had called for a pot of ale , and wished me to drink with him , and he asked me if they did not blame him for accusing my master sir miles ? and i said i did not hear him named , he said it was not him , but he might not tell who it was . mr. just . dolb. when was this ? pears . three or four days after my master was taken into custody : and he said he would have gone to have seen sir miles ; but i think , ( says he ) he does not know me : and he askt me if mr. legget would be at our house , and he desired me to give him a letter ; and i said i should not see him ; then he said i might burn it , and i did burn it my lord. sir tho. stringer , how came you acquainted with bolron ? pears . at the cole-pits , my lord. sir tho. stringer . did you never see him at sir tho. gascoyn's ? pears . no , my lord. stephen thompson , called and examined . mr. just . dolb. have a care you speak nothing but truth , though you are not sworn , yet we can punish you , and god almighty will punish you if you speak false . steph. thompson . an 't like your honour , rob. bolron was servant to sir tho. gascoyn , as steward of his cole-pits ; sir tho. put him out of his colepits , and there was a great deal of mony due , and he knew not how to get it , and therefore he would take threescore pounds for it , because he knew not how to get it , and he would take thirty two pounds at one time , and twenty eigth at another , and he came to me to be bound with him , which i was unwilling to ; saith he here is thirty eight pound good debt , and i shall take care to get the other , and if sir tho. be not kind , i shall do him an ill turn . mr. just . dolb. what is this to sir miles stapleton ? thompson . he did swear , this plot being discovered , they thought he knew something of sir tho. gascoyn , and he said before the plot broke out , there was never a catholick in york-shire was concerned in it , if there were any it was above . bar. greg. this was before his information i 'le lay a wager . mr. just . dolb. how could he do him an ill turn ? thompson . my lord this is the ill turn , mr. legget said he did it not for need ; oh rob. bolron said i , do you thus requite sir tho gascoyn's kindnesses ? bar. greg. did he speak any thing to you concerning sir miles ? sir miles . i conceive when they reflect upon sir tho. they reflect upon me . mr. just . dolb. no not so , you might be guilty , and sir tho. innocent ; or you might be innocent and sir tho. guilty . sir miles . my lord i think that as there was a consult at sir tho. gascoyn's ; certainly if any one was guilty , we were all guilty . baron gregory . there are some that conceive , and i think , not without grounds , that there are no considerable catholicks in england but they are concerned in the plot. mr. just . dolb. there was one dixon came at sir tho. gascoyn's trial , and said he heard bol. and mowb. down a pair of stairs , speaking of revenge against sir tho. gascoyn and my lady tempest , and thinking these witnesses might now be produced , we called at leeds to veiw the stairs , and i am sure neither my brother nor i could see any probability in it . bar. gregary . for satisfaction we made two go up into the chamber and stand where the witnesses were , and they spoke as loud as people do usually when they discourse , and i am sure i could neither perceive what they said , nor see them , unless i went three or four steps up . mr. just . dolb. this is but occasioned by your jesting upon the matter . nathaniel wilson call'd . mr. just . dolb. sir miles i would put you in mind of one thing , produce those two witnesses that were produced at sir tho. gascoyn's trial. sir miles . i have none of these witnesses . mr. just . dolb. certainly these witnesses would be as material as any you can have to do it sir miles . i have them not here my lord. mr. just . dolben . nay , that is because you dare not ; the kings counsel will prove what they spoke they were hired to , and had mony from sir tho. gascoyn , which they confest . sir miles . my lord they made affidavit of it . mr. just . dolb. though they did , yet they confessed they were hired to it . my lady vavasour called and examined . sir miles . my lord , i call my lady vavasour to tell whether sir walter was there at the consult they tell us of at barmbow . mr. just . dolb. that will be heard for her to do , but call her then : who was cal-called , but speaking so low she could not be heard by the court , and standing besides mr. just . dolben he repeated her words to the court. my lady saith this , gentlemen , she believes her husband was not there in any part of the year , because he was infirm at york . now gentlmen , i would only know whether that be conclusive evidence when it is only possible . mr. legget called and examined . sir miles . mr. leggett , pray what mony would mr. bolron have given you when i was taken ? leggett . mr. bolron desired me to lend his wife some mony to go to market with , and i did : the same day between tadcaster and york , mr. bolron askt me what allowance dr. oats had , i told him i heard he had five hundred pounds a year ; and he answered i deserve as much , for i have done as much good as he ; as i was going for york , i met with mr. mowb. and it raining i put in at tadcaster ; when the rain was over we set forward for york , said mr. mowb. mr. bolron hath sent for me , so i went to mr. bol. to the george , and he sent for mr. mowbray , and he pulls out his information , and after he had read it he askt him if he knew any thing of that , and he said he did not know of it . mr. just . dolb. well what is that to the purpose , did you hear him say any thing against sir miles ? leggett . i have heard mr. bolron say that he had nothing to say against sir miles stapleton , but only he had made over his estate to sir john daney . mr. just . dolb. how came he to name sir miles to you ? mr. leg. he voluntarily told me of it , when we went to allerton to apprehend some priests , and when i returned , i told him i took but one of these persons , old mr. metcalf , and he said he cared not if i had but taken one addy . mr. just . dolb. you must not talk of this fashion . sir miles . it shews but what a kind of a man he is . mr. just . dolb. so may we examine to the end of the chapter . do you say bolron read over his information to mowbray and he said he knew nothing of it as to sir miles stapleton ? legg . no my lord , but of sir tho. gascoyn ; he askt him nothing my lord but against sir tho. gascoyn , after they went out and had been together , mr. bol. told me sir miles stapleton was to be taken into custody , and he said you may as well have it as another , but i 'le go half snipps with you ; at last he told me if i have an hundred pounds of sir miles , you shall have twenty of it . mr. just . dolb. had you any warrant at that time to take sir miles ? legget . no my lord. bolron . i know nothing of any such thing . mrs. eliz. holmes called and examined mrs. holmes . and 't please you my lord , at sir tho. gascoyn's trial , mr. bol. and his wife they were at our house at dinner , after dinner they askt me if i would go to sir tho. trial , i answered yes , so mrs. mowbray came and called her husband out of door , and i askt her about sir tho. gas . and she said — mr. just . dolb. tell us not what she said . holmes . she said they were hard people , but she thought they were innocent to the plot , and she had nothing to say against them , as god should judge her soul. then another time my lord , after bolron came from york , he met me , how now sister , i understand you are to be a witness against me at york , but if you 'l be kind to me i 'le be kind to you and speak as favourably as i can ; and he said if he had known he should have been no better rewarded , he would never have been a witness ; the devil should have been a witness as soon as he . mr. just . dolb. against whom ? holmes . against sir tho. gas . and sir miles my lord , and he bid me be careful what i swore ; for if we did swear false he would have us at the pillory , and unless i would unsay what i had said in my lady's trial , he would punish me sufficiently . mr. just . dolb. who said this , know you ? holmes . mr. bol. my lord. bar. greg. where do you live ? holmes . i live my lord , in baldwin's garden . sir tho. stringer . did you ever tell any that if they would come and swear against the evidence against sir miles stapleton , they should be sufficiently rewarded ? holms . no , never in my life . sir miles . when did you see me last , bolron ? bol. i have seen you in . several times . mr. just . dolb. he hath seen you in prison . bol. my lord i have seen him at barnbow hall in . sir tho. stringer . you know sir miles stapleton ? mr. bol. yes very well ; and i have several times talked with him . sir miles . i desire to know whether he hath seen sir tho. gas . and me discourse about any thing ? mr. bol. no not since the plot broke out . sir miles . he swore in sir tho. gascoyn's trial he heard me and sir tho. discourse about oats and bedloe . mr. just . dolb. well how material will that be ? sir miles . i shall prove that he swore false , for sir tho. and i was never together since the plot broke forth . mr. just . dolb. that is hard to do . bar. greg. you have an excellent witness that can swear that . sir miles . in all probability i can do it . mr. just . dolb. but that must not go before a positive . well , have you done ? sir miles . there is another witness or two if it be not too tedious . mr. just . dolb. no we will stay here all day if you please . edward cooper called and examined . cooper . my lord all that i can say is we having been at autherton fair , we met with mr. mowbray , knowing him and being acquainted with him , pray said i , whether is there any thing of a truth in this that bolron swears against sir tho. gas . or no ? no saith he , he might as well have sworn it against you or another person ; for i have been in the house as he , and i never knew any such thing . mr. just . dolb. this was before mowbray had discover'd any thing , for mowb. was then a papist and had taken the oath of secrecy ; besides 't is not much what mowb. said he was going on a high-way : if it had been before a justice of peace , or if he had been upon his oath , then it had been more material . madam shereburn called and examined . sir. miles . madam shereburn , pray declare what bol. said at your house . madam shereburn . mr. bol. and mowb. came to our house under the pretence of searching for priests , and bol. took several parcels of silver away with him . judge dolb. away , away , if you have any thing against him on the behalf of this gentleman , madam speak it ; but you would prove him a theif , and say he went to seek for priests and he stole mony from them mowb. we went to seek for priests , and we took some chalices and other popish trinkets away . mr. just . dolb. do not spend your and our time in saying that bol. and mowb. were knavish boys ; we it may be are all guilty of extravigances in that particular . bar. greg. they themselves confess they have been very bad ; they took the oath of secrecy , and it is as ill as ever was spoken or writ in so few words . mr. just . dolb. i know they have been very bad men . well have you any more witnesses ? sir miles . i can produce my neighbours and those of the church of england , that can say no otherwise than that i have been of good behaviour . sir tho. stringer . it is generally concluded by all that sir miles hath ben a very good man until he fell into this great action . mr. just . dolb. brother have you any thing more to say ? if not i 'le proceed . sir tho. stringer . only i desire that dixon and wilson may be called in to swear that they were hired at sir thomas gascoyns trial. mr. just . dolb. call them then . dixon call'd and sworn . sir tho. stringer . pray tell my lord and the jury what witnesses were hir'd , and whether you were hired to testifie for sir thomas gascoyn or no ? dixon . my lord , in november john bayly sent john wilkinson for me , and when i came there , batley was there , and they desired me to go and there call'd me into the garden , and ask'd me if i would be a witness for sir thomas gascoyn , and would give me forty shillings . wilson call'd and sworn . sir tho. stringer . were you offer'd any thing by mr. babbington to be a witness for sir miles ? wilson . i was , my lord. sir tho. stringer . pray tell my lord what you were offer'd , and what he would have you to say ? dixon . batley would have him to be a witness . mr. just . dolb. well , but what was he to say ? dixon . he was to say he never see bol. nor mowbray at his house . saith batley , i saw them at the door . thou never didst see them in my house ? yes saith he i see them once , and my lord , the third time before they departed he might say that in . he came in and found them there . this he prest on me , celling me it was but as telling a lye , for no oath was required in this case . bar. greg. did mr. babington offer you mony , what would he have you to testifie for it ? mr. just . dolb. what mony would he have given you ? wilson . he would have given me l. and hickeringil profered me l. mr. just . dolb. is babington a solicitor for sir miles ? bolron . yes my lord here he is . dixon . batley did press me to say again that he did never see mr. bol. and mowb. in his house , and he had made a contrivance of that . christopher langley and richard cocker called and sworn . sir tho. stringer . pray tell my lords and the jury what you have been profer'd , and by whom to give evidence for sir miles . chr. langley . my lord and 't please you , i kept a publick house , so william batley and john ross came and called for a quart of ale , and this richard cocker was with us , and he said if you 'l go and be a witness for sir miles in those things we shall direct you , you shall have a couple of oxen and half a score of sheep . sir tho. stringer . who profer'd you this ? langley . wil. batley and john ross . cocker . well it is the same my lord , i went with him into his house and he profer'd him a couple of oxen and half a score of sheep , if he would be a witness for sir miles . mr. bayns called and sworn . sir tho. stringer . speak whether mrs. holmes would have had you to have recanted any thing against sir miles . mr. bayns . he profer'd me since i came into the kingdom of england threescore pound a year to have holden my tongue , if i had any thing to say against sir miles : i told her not whether i had any thing or no , and she profer'd me . l. per annum , mrs. hewit said she would give me more if i would say nothing against sir miles . mr. just . dolb. did they make any assurance ? bayns . i askt them , do you know another gentlemans purse : they said they knew it very well that he would give it . sir miles . pray let mrs. holms be call'd again . mr. just . dolb. well , she denies it . what is that hewit ? bains . he married another of my daughters : my lord. mr. just . dolb. she only appear'd zealous for sir thomas gascoyne , and she would be the same for sir miles stapleton . have you any thing more sir miles ? sir miles . no , my lord : only mrs. holmes denies it . mr. just . dolb. she does so . sir miles . i have not much to say against mr. bayns . mr. just . dolb. i do not hear he saith much against you . bar. greg. he had got his money pretty easily if he said nothing more against you : he had scarce earn'd his money . sir miles . i desire the jury may consider what credit was given to their evidence formerly in the former trials : for i speak seriously , i never spoke any such thing , nor was ever at any consult about any such thing ; i believe there is none that knows me will believe it . mr. just . dolb. is that all ? sir miles . the evidence is very improper : i never thought ill against the king in my life : what reason was there for it ? mr. just . dolb. no reason at all that either you or any papist should do it , but only through the mad fiery zeal of the jesuits , for ever since the reformation you have enjoy'd your estates and religion without any molestation , but you could not endure we should quietly enjoy ours . but if you have any matter on record against them we will hear it ; it may be you will say he is an idle fellow and the like ; there will be no end of such reflections . bar. greg. you see what is produc'd on your behalf sir miles though not by your direction , yet on your behalf , and they said it was but telling a lie . sir miles . no , my lord , not i ; i never gave any such directions . mr. just . dolb. gentlemen of the jury , sir miles stapleton , stands indicted for a very foul treason , for endeavouring to subvert the government , change the religion , and to bring in popish superstition and idolatry : which he could never do , without compassing the death of the king , he being the only obstacle in the way . this is his charge . the proof of this depends upon bolron and mowbray ; mr. smith , the first witness , he only relates he hath been in rome and france , and among all the priests he convers'd with there was such a design on foot ; but against sir miles he knows nothing , but things told him by mr. thwing , which i must tell you is no evidence against sir miles stapleton . bolron and mowbray , do positively swear the thing as plain as any thing can be ; they both swear they were present at several consults , where it was resolv'd the king should be kil'd , and that sir miles did agree to it , and did agree to contribute l. to carry on this design . captain bayns , being examined , he saith he did really see sir miles at barmbow-hall at that time , but he doth not know whether it was about that or no. against this , sir miles saith it cannot be but this is an invention of bolron and mowb ▪ and to prove this he produceth several witnesses , that bolron should deny , and that he should sometimes say that sir tho gascoyn knew nothing of it : sometimes that sir miles knew nothing of it : i must tell you at this time , that they were then discourst withal , they at that time were papists themselves , and lay under the oath of secrecy . but now here are three witnesses , sir tho. tarbrough , my lady tarbrough , and mr. lowder ; and they do speak as much as any of the other doth concerning bolron and mowbray , and they speak it when it was a time pertinent ▪ for what they spoke to a justice of peace at that time seems somewhat probable : you heard what mr. lowder saith , they came to him to accuse them the th . day of january , and he put them off for that time , and he gives you reasons why he did it ; and then he brings an order of counsel to examin mowbray , and he rells him what mowbray would swear , and he tells him he would swear against sir miles stapleton , that he was at the consult at barmbow-hall ; you have heard him often deliver this , and because it was somewhat material we desir'd him to speak it again and again : bolron denies it , he never told him what mowbray could swear ; so that depends upon the credit of the witnesses . sir thomas yarbrough tells us that bolron came to him , and knockt him up out of bed for his warrant to search for rushton a priest , who he said was at sir miles's , and thereupon he askt him if he could tell any thing of sir miles stapleton , and he said no , with many asseverations ; now if that information were the same that was sent to mr. lowder , then t is of no such weight , and it hath been presuppos'd by the kings counsel that sir thomas might forget himself , neither was there any thing in these papers relating to sir miles . and my lady yarbrough being in bed in the same chamber , she saith she heard the papers read and her husband askt him of sir miles stapleton , but he deny'd that he was concern'd in the plot : and she saith further , in the afternoon , a gentleman brought him into the porch where they were sitting , and the gentleman askt him who was plotters , but he would not tell him ; then he askt him if sir miles stapleton was concern'd , and he positively deny'd it . these things hang not well together , i know not how to make any observations upon it ; he denies that he said so , they say he did . the rest of the witnesses are not very much material , only as i told you before , what talk they would have talkt before they changed their religion : there is nothing proved against them , but they are good witnesses in the law ; there is no records , nor perjuries ; nor any thing else that takes off their evidence ▪ they have sworn it several times , and stand to it . now you have heard and taken notice what objections have been made against it baron gregory . my brother hath open'd it so fully , i shall trouble you with very little , only to let you see that my observations were the same , and that i concurr in the evidence with my brother , for there is very full evidence against the prisoner at the barr. the matter they swear is treason of the highest nature imaginable : there are but two that swear positively , but they swear of several consults , and of the particulars that were agreed on by sir miles stapleton for the carrying it on ; and there is no material witnesses against them . for the latter witnesses , of their denying of it , it must be before they were of the protestant religion ; when they were concern'd as much to conceal it , as any persons that were guilty of it : besides in a discourse a man is not bound to tell a neighbour all things that he doth know , he cannot be safe to tell it to a private person at that time . it is very true , as my brother hath told you , they were resolved when they discover'd it they would have security for themselves : i suppose they needed not have fear'd sir miles flying from being apprehended , but if sir miles was at large they might have fear'd it . but when they came to be examin'd upon their oaths before mr. lowder and mr. tindal there could not be any thing to excuse them ; it is true , to my apprehension , there was no probable reasons why these two gentlemen should ask them if sir miles were concern'd in the plot ; for in the information that they saw , his name was not mentioned ; thus they were as much afraid as sir miles was , it may be , it was their care of him knowing what religion he was of , and knowing him to be related to sir thomas gascoyn . no it doth depend upon the credit of what they have sworn , they deny what is charged upon them by these gentlemen ; by sir thomas yarbrough and by my lady ; and t is true mr. lowder was as a magistrate too , and sir thomas was as a magastrate too , it is true he was not upon the examination of them upon oath at that time , therefore that was not as before a magistrate ; but mr. lowder they came to him as a magistrate , therefore it must be for you to consider whether or no there might be a forgetfulness of them in their speaking or a misunderstanding of them ; there is nothing else that i know can tend to the reconciling of it : for if there were a mistake by the one , or a forgetfulness in the other , then it might alter the understanding ; but if they heard well and remember'd true , then it will be , as i said before , more difficult to be reconciled . but gentlemen , upon the whole matter , it will depend upon the construction and reputation of what they swear and these gentlemen speak , which you are to consider . having sworn a bailiff , the jury withdrew for about half an hours consultation together , and then return'd into court and gave in their verdict , not guilty . finis . the tryals of joseph dawson, edward forseith, william may, [brace] william bishop, james lewis, and john sparkes for several piracies and robberies by them committed in the company of every the grand pirate, near the coasts of the east-indies, and several other places on the seas : giving an account of their villainous robberies and barbarities : at the admiralty sessions, begun at the old-baily on the th of october, , and ended on the th of november. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryals of joseph dawson, edward forseith, william may, [brace] william bishop, james lewis, and john sparkes for several piracies and robberies by them committed in the company of every the grand pirate, near the coasts of the east-indies, and several other places on the seas : giving an account of their villainous robberies and barbarities : at the admiralty sessions, begun at the old-baily on the th of october, , and ended on the th of november. england and wales. high court of admiralty. p. printed by john everingham, bookseller ..., london : . reproduction of original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (piracy) -- england. great britain -- history -- william and mary, - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - daniel haig sampled and proofread - daniel haig text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryals of ioseph dawson , edward forseith , william may , william bishop , iames lewis , and iohn sparkes . for several piracies and robberies by them committed ▪ in the company of every the grand pirate , near the coasts of the east-indies ; and several other places on the seas . giving an account of their villainous robberies and barbarities . at the admiralty sessions , begun at the old-baily on the th of october , . and ended on the th . of november . london , printed for iohn everingham , bookseller , at the star in ludgate-street , . admir . angl. ss . the sessions of oyer and terminer , and goal-delivery , held for our sovereign lord the king , for the iurisdiction of the admiralty of england , at iustice-hall in the old-baily , in the suburbs of the city of london , on monday the th day of october , in the eighth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord king william the third , over england , &c. before the right honourable edward russel , esq henry priestman , esq sir robert rich , knight and baronet ; sir george rooke , kt. sir john houblon , kt. and james kendall , esq commissioners for executing and exercising the office and place of lord high admiral of england , respectively assigned and deputed ; the right worshipful sir charles hedges , kt. dr. of law , lieutenant in the high court of admiralty of england , commissary-general of our sovereign lord the king , and president and iudge of the said court ; the right honourable sir john holt , kt. lord chief iustice of the king's-bench ; sir george treby , kt. lord chief iustice of the common-pleas ; sir edward ward , kt. lord chief baron of the exchequer ; sir tho. rookeby , kt. and one of the iustices of the kings-bench ; sir samuel eyre , kt. another of the iustices of the kings-bench ; sir john turton , kt. another of the iustices of the kings-bench ; sir john powell , kt. one of the iustices of the common-pleas ; sir littleton powis , kt. one of the barons of the exchequer ; william bridgeman and josias burchet , esqs ▪ secretaries of the admiralty of england ; thomas lane. william king , and john cooke , respectively drs. of laws ; and others his majesty's iustices named in the said commission . his majesty's commissioners being then and there met , the commission was read , and proclamation made for attendance : after which , the gentlemen of the grand jury were called and sworn , and received their charge from sir ch. hedges , kt. judge of the high court of admiralty , who set forth unto them the nature of the commission , the extent of the jurisdiction of the court , and the subject matter of their enquiries . then the witnesses for the king being sworn , the grand jury withdrew , and after a little time returned , finding billa vera against henry every not yet taken , ioseph dawson , edw. foreseith , william may , william bishop , iames lewes , and iohn sparkes , prisoners , for feloniously and piratically taking , and carrying away , from persons unknown , a certain ship called the gunsway , with her tackle , apparel and furniture , to the value of l. and of goods to the value of l. together with pieces of eight , and chequins , upon the high seas , ten leagues from the cape st. iohns near surat in the east-indies . then dawson , forseith , may , bishop , lewes , and sparkes , were brought to the bar , and their indictment was read . ioseph dawson confessed that he was guilty , but the rest pleaded not guilty , and put themselves upon their trials ; and thereupon the petty-jury was called , and the persons , whose names follow , were sworn . william walker , iohn child , edward leeds , thomas clarke , nathan green , henry sherbrooke , benjamin dry , iohn sherbrooke , samuel iackson , thomas emms , henry hunter , iohn hall. then the king 's learned councel opened the indictment , &c. and dr. newton ▪ made a speech ; which is as follows . my lorde , and gentlemen of the jury , the prisoners are indicted for piracy , in robbing and plundering the ship gunsway , belonging to the great mogul , and his subjects , in the indian seas , to a very great value . and the end was suitable to their beginning , they first practised these crimes upon their own country-men , the english , and then continued them on to strangers and foreigners : for the ship in which this piracy was committed , was an english vessel , called the charles the second , belonging to several merchants of this city , designed for other ends , and a far different voyage , which by these criminals , with the assistance of one every , their captain , in all these villanies , was seized near the groyn in spain , in may . from which place , having first by force , set captain gibson the commander , on shoar , they carried off the ship , and with it committed many and great pyracies , for several years ( as will appear in the course of the evidence ) in most of the parts of the known world , without distinction upon all nations , and persons of all religions . their last piracy , was this in the indies , the greatest in it self , and like to be the most pernicious in its consequences , especially as to trade , considering the power of the great mogull , and the natural inclination of the indians to revenge : but they are now brought hither on their tryal , and if the matters , they are charged with , shall be proved , to receive that iudgment from you , their crime deserves ; and that is piracy , which by so much exceeds theft or robbery at land ; as the interest and concerns of kingdoms and nations , are above those of private families , or particular persons : for suffer pirates , and the commerce of the world must cease , which this nation has deservedly so great a share in , and reaps such mighty advantage by : and if they shall go away unpunished , when it is known whose subjects they are , the consequence may be , to involve the nations concerned , in war and blood , to the destruction of the innocent english in those countries , the total loss of the indian trade , and thereby , the impoverishment of this kingdom . the witnesses for the king , viz. iohn dan , and philip middleton , were then called and sworn , and in the opinion of the court gave a full evidence against the prisoners , which was very clearly summ'd up by the lord chief justice holt ; the tenour whereof is particularly set forth in the following trials : but the jury , contrary to the expectation of the court , brought in all the prisoners not guilty , whereupon the sessions was adjourned to saturday the th of october following , and the prisoners were committed upon a new warrant for several other piracies . die sabbati , tricesimo primo octobris , annoque regni regis willielmi tertii octavo , annoque domini , . the court being sat ( at which were present sir charles hedges judge of the high court of admiralty , the lord chief justice holt , the lord chief justice treby , the lord chief baron ward , mr. justice rookby , mr. justice turton , mr. justice eyres , and mr. baron powis , dr. lane , dr. king , and dr. cook ) the court proceeded in this manner . cl. of arr. cryer , make proclamation . cryer . o yes , o yes , o yes all manner of persons that have any thing more to do at this sessions , draw near and give your attendance : and you sheriff , of the city of london , return the several precepts directed to you , and returnable here this day , upon pain and peril that shall follow thereon . then the grand jury were called over , and the appearances mark'd . cl. of arr. make proclamation . cryer . o yes , &c. the lords the king's justices charge and command all persons to keep silence , while the charge is giving . the iudge of the admiralties charge to the grand iury upon this occasion . sir charles hedges . gentlemen of the grand jury . the opinion which this court had of the good intentions , abilities , and integrity of the last grand jury , was so fully answered at our late meeting in this place ; that i am confident all good english-men , who were witnesses of their proceedings , will concur in giving them publick thanks , for the good services which they then performed : i wish that all others , who were concerned in the dispatch of that days business , had the like pretence to have the same ; the publick justice of the nation , would not then have lain under any manner of reproach , neither would you have had this farther trouble . but seeing that it hath so happen'd , it is become absolutely necessary that a farther , and a strict enquiry should be made after those crimes which threaten , and tend to the destruction of our navigation and trade , and therefore i am assured of your patience , whilst i shew you briefly , . what the crimes are , which you are to enquire after . . how far the jurisdiction , and your power in making these enquiries doth extend . . what is the duty incumbent on you in this behalf . . as to the crimes , i shall not repeat what was mentioned touching all the particulars thereof , at the opening of this sessions ; but confine my discourse to those , which i find by the calendar will , at this time , necessarily fall under your examination , and those are piracies . now piracy is only a sea term for robbery , piracy being a robbery committed within the jurisdiction of the admiralty ; if any man be assaulted within that jurisdiction , and his ship or goods violently taken away without a legal authority , this is robbery and piracy . if the mariners of any ship shall violently dispossess the master , and afterwards carry away the ship it self , or any of the goods , or tackle , apparel , or furniture , with a felonious intention , in any place where the lord admiral hath , or pretends to have jurisdiction ; this is also robbery and piracy ; the intention will , in these cases , appear , by considering the end for which the fact was committed , and the end will be known , if the evidence shall shew you what hath been done . . now the jurisdiction of the admiralty is declared , and described in the statute , and commission by vertue of which we here meet , and is extended throughout all seas , and the ports , havens , creeks , and rivers beneath the first bridges next the sea , even unto the higher water-mark . the king of england hath not only an empire and soveraignty over the british seas ; but also an undoubted jurisdiction , and power , in concurrency with other princes , and states , for the punishment of all piracies and robberies at sea , in the most remote parts of the world , so that if any person whatsoever , native or forreigner , christian or infidel , turk or pagan , with whose country we have no war , with whom we hold trade and correspondence , and are in amity , shall be robbed or spoiled , in the narrow seas , the mediterranean , atlantick , southern , or any other seas , or the branches thereof , either on this , or the other side of the line , it is piracy within the limits of your enquiry , and the cognizance of this court. . concerning the duty incumbent upon you in making your enquiries , and presentments , you may consider that there is a great trust and authority committed to you , and therefore it will be expected that a suitable care should be had , and your power executed according to a well regulated discretion : as you are , on the one hand , to take care that the court be not troubled , nor any man put in hazard of his life , through any frivolous , or malicious prosecution ; so , on the other side , and more especially in the cases of great , and publick offences , you are to use your utmost endeavours , that justice , the support of government , be not obstructed by any partial proceedings . you are not obliged in all cases to require a clear and full evidence , but only to examine till you find , and are satisfied in your consciences , that there is sufficient and just cause to put the party accused upon his tryal . you cannot convict , but may in effect acquit it the greatest criminals , and therefore if you do but find proofs enough to create a presumption against the party accused , when the case seems odious , and is of great consequence , and importance , your safest way is to put it in a proper method for the petty jury , who are to receive full satisfaction from the evidence that shall be given in the presence of the party ; and according to that evidence , have power to determine whether guilty , or not guilty , condemn , as well as acquit . and upon this occasion , seeing many who are upon that service are present , it seems fit that they should also know that they have no power to do more or less than what is agreeable to the evidence : they are not to interpose in points of law , or to be swayed by any consideration whatsoever , but what shall arise from the proofs judicially made ; they are indeed judges of the fact , but they are not arbitrary ; they are as much restrained by the dictates of conscience formed and convinced by reasonable proofs , as the judges on the bench are by the rules of law. no man can believe just as he lists , and therefore a determination , or judgment at will and pleasure will never be thought to deserve the name of a verdict : for whatever may be pretended , the world will not be persuaded that a jury hath pursued the dictates of conscience , unless some reasonable grounds for its proceedings shall appear , and therefore , whenever it shall happen that notorious malefactors escape unpunished , notwithstanding , that in the opinion of most good men , there was a full and sufficient evidence for their conviction , it is to be wished , and indeed it seems to me to be necessary , in cases that relate to the laws of nations , that the reasons which induced such a determination should be given for the publick satisfaction , otherwise , since forreigners look upon the decrees of our courts of justice as the sense and judgment of the whole nation , our enemies will be glad to find an occasion to say , that such miscreants as are out of the protection of all laws , and civil governments , are abetted by those who contend for the soveraignty of the seas . the barbarous nations will reproach us as being a harbour , receptacle , and a nest of pirates , and our friends will wonder to hear that the enemies of merchants and of mankind , should find a sanctuary in this ancient place of trade . nay , we our selves cannot but confess , that all kingdoms and countries who have suffered by english pirates , may , for want of redress in the ordinary course , have the pretence of justice , and the colour of the laws of nations to justifie their making reprizals upon our merchants wheresoever they shall meet them upon the seas . if a jury happens in these cases to be too severe , there is room for mercy , and i am confident , that upon a just representation , the innocent never failed of obtaining it ; but for a fault , neglect , or errour on the other hand , there is no relief for injured forreigners , but by their carrying out , as we may be sure they will , for themselves , such a satisfaction , upon our merchants as they shall think fit , whenever they shall have an opportunity ; and so our whole nation must unavoidably suffer both in reputation and interest , and all as it were through our own default . i hope what hath been said upon this unexpected occasion , will not be looked upon as intended to influence any jury ; i am sure it is far from being so designed ; religion , conscience , honour , common honesty , humanity , and all laws forbid such methods : there is no doubt but the judge as well as the jury ▪ man then best discharges his duty , when he proceeds without favour or affection , hatred or ill-will , or any partial respect whatsoever . every man ought to be extreamly tender of such a person as he has reason to believe is innocent ; but it should be considered likewise on the other side , that he who brings a notorious pirate , or common malefactor to justice , contributes to the safety , and preservation of the lives of many , both bad and good , of the good by means of the assurance of protection , and of the bad too by the terrour of justice . it was upon this consideration that the roman emperours in their edicts made this piece of service for the publick good , as meritorious as any act of piety , or religious worship . our own laws demonstrate how much our legislators , and particularly how highly that great prince k. h. the th . and his parliament thought this nation concerned in providing for the security of traders , and scowring the seas of rovers and free-booters . certainly there never was any age wherein our ancestors were not extraordinary zealous in that affair , looking upon it , as it is , and ever will be , the chief support of the navigation , trade , wealth , strength , reputation and glory of this nation . gentlemen , our concern , as our trade is , ought in reason to be rather greater than that of our fore-fathers ; we want no manner of inducements , no motives to stir us up , whether we consider our interest or honour , we have not only the sacred word , but also the glorious acts of the best of kings , which sufficiently manifest to us , that the good and safety of this nation , is the greatest care of his life ; let every man therefore who pretends to any thing of a true english spirit , readily , chearfully follow so good , so great , so excellent an example , by assisting and contributing to the utmost of his power and capacity at all times towards the carrying on his noble and generous designs for the common good , and particularly at this time , by doing all that he can , to the end that by the administration of equal justice , the discipline of the seas , on which the good and safety of this nation entirely depends , may be supported and maintained . then the witnesses being sworn in court , the grand jury withdrew to hear their evidence . and in the mean time t. vaughan and i. murphey , tim. brenain , were arraigned , whom the keeper of newgate , by order , brought to the bar. cl. of arr. t. vaughan , hold up thy hand ( which he did ) . thou standest indicted , &c. art thou guilty of this high treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? t. vaughan . not guilty . cl. of arr. culprit , how wilt thou be tried ? t. vaughan . by god and this countrey . cl. of arr. god send thee a good deliverance . cl. of arr. i murphey , hold up thy hand ( which he did ) , thou standest indicted , &c. how sayest thou , io. murphey , art thou guilty of the high treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? i murphey . not guilty . cl. of arr. how wilt thou be tried ? i. murphey . by god and the king. officer . you must say , by god and my countrey . cl. of arr. god send thee a good deliverance . cl. of arr. bring tim. brenain to the bar , ( who was brought accordingly . ) cl. of arr. tim. brenain , have you any copy of your indictment ? tim. brenain . yes . cl. of arr. when had you it ? tim. brenain . this day sennight . cl. of arr. tim. brenain , hold up thy hand ( which he did ) ; thou standest indicted , &c. how sayest thou ? art thou guilty of the high treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? tim. brenain . not guilty . cl. of arr. how wilt thou be tried ? t. brenain . by god and my country . cl. of arr. god send thee a good deliverance . mr. mompesson . will your lordships please that he may be tried now ? l. c. i. treby . does he desire to be tried now ? mr. mompesson , yes , my lord , there is no evidence against him , and he is sick . mr. soll. gen. we are not now prepared for the tryal . l. c. i. treby . if the king's council and the prisoner be agreed , with all my heart . l. c. i. holt. he may be tryed with the rest . then t. vaughan , and i. murphey , and t. brenain , had notice to prepare for their tryals on friday next , at two of the clock in the afternoon . then the grand jury came into court. cl. of arr. gentlemen of the grand jury , are you agreed in your bills ? grand iury. yes . cl. of arr. billa vera against ioseph dawson , ed. foreseth , w. may , w. bishop , iames lewis , and i. sparks , for pyracy and robbery . cl. of arr. keeper of newgate , set ioseph dawson , ed. foreseth , will. may , will. bishop , will. lewis , and io. sparks , to the bar ( which was done accordingly ) . cl. of arr. ioseph dawson , hold up thy hand ( which he did ▪ ) ed. foreseth , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) w. may , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) w. bishop , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) iames lewis , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) io. sparks , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) then the indictment was read , and set forth , that henry every , alias bridgman , joseph dawson , edward foreseth , william may , william bishop , james lewis and john sparks , late of london , mariners , on the th of may , in the th year of the reign of our sovereign lord king william , and the late queen , did , against the peace of god , and our said sovereign lord the king that now is , and the late queen , by force of arms , upon the high and open seas , in a certain place . about three leagues from the groyn , and within the iurisdiction of the admiralty of england , piratically and felloniously set upon one charles gibson , a subject of our said soveraign lord the king , that now is , and of the late queen , being then and there commander of a certain merchant-ship , called , the charles the second , carrying forty peices of ordnance , belonging to certain subjects of the said king and the late queen ( to the iurors as yet unknown ) . and then and there put the said charles gibson in bodily fear of his life . and then and there , within the iurisdiction aforesaid , feloniously and pyratically did steal , take and carry away from the said charles gibson , the said ship , called , the charles the second , her tackle , apparel and furniture , of the value of one thousand pounds , forty peices of ordnance of the value of five hundred pounds ; one hundred fusees , of the value of one hundred pounds ; fifteen tun of bread , of the value of one hundred and fifty pounds ; and two hundred pair of woollen stockings , of the value of ten pounds , in the possession of the said charles gibson then being ; the ship , goods , and chattels , of the subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , and the late queen , ( to the iurors unknown ) against the peace of our said sovereign lord the king , and the late queen , their crown , and dignities , &c. how say'st thou , ioseph dawson , art thou guilty of this pyracy and robbery , or not guilty ? ios. dawson . i am ignorant of the proceedings . officer . he pleads ignorance . cl. of arr. you must plead guilty , or not guilty . ios. dawson guilty . cl. of arr. how say'st thou , ed. foreseth , art thou guilty , or not guilty ? ed. foreseth . not guilty . cl. of arr. how wilt thou be try'd ? e. foreseth . by god and my countrey . cl. of arr. how say'st thou , will may , art thou guilty , or not guilty ? w. may. not guilty . cl. of arr. how say'st thou , w. bishop , art thou guilty , or not guilty ? w. bishop . i desire to hear the whole indictment read again . l. c. i. holt. you have heard it , just now , and may hear it again if you desire it . w. bishop . the former indictment . l. c. i. holt. no , there is no occasion for that , this is an indictment for a fact distinct from that . cl. of arr. this is a new indictment , not the old one . art thou guilty of this pyracy and robbery , or not guilty ? w. bishop . not guilty . cl. of arr. how say'st thou , iames lewis , art thou guilty , or not guilty ? ia. lewis . not guilty . cl. of arr. how say'st thou , i. sparks , art thou guilty , or not guilty ? i. sparks . not guilty . cl. of arr. how wilt thou be tryed ? ( as of the rest ) i. sparks . by god and my countrey . cl. of arr. god send thee a good deliverance . cryer . o yes , &c. you good men of the city of london , summoned to appear here this day , to try between our soveraign lord the king , and prisoners at the barr , answer to your names as you are called , and save your issues . cl. of arr. io. degrave , benjamin hatly , io. ayres , &c. l. c. i. holt. have you any of the former jury in this pannel ? cl. of arr. yes , my lord. councellor coniers . we shall except against them for the king. l. c. i. holt. if you have return'd any of the former jury , you have not done well ; for that verdict was a dishonour to the justice of the nation . cl. of arr. you , the prisoners at the barr , these men you hear called , are to pass between our soveraign lord the king , and you ; if therefore you will challenge any of them , you are to challenge them as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they are sworn . then they were called over , and some being challenged for the king , and some by the prisoners , the persons sworn in this jury were these . i. degrave . i. ayres . g. broom . t. hicks . r. meakins . i. shelswell . alex. pollinton . i. glover . nath. carpenter . io. bickley . nath. troughton . hum. south ▪ cl. of arr. make proclamation . cryer . o yes , if any one can inform my lords the kings justices , the kings serjeant , the kings attorney general , or his majesties advocate in his high court of admiralty , before this inquest be taken , of the pyracy and robbery , whereof the prisoners at the barr stand indicted , let them come forth , and they shall be heard ; for the prisoners stand at the barr upon their deliverance ; and all others may depart . then the grand jury came into court again , having found two other bills against the prisoners at the barr , one for pyratically taking away a moorish ship , and another for committing piracy on two ships belonging to denmark . and then the grand jury was adjourned to friday next , at two a clock in the afternoon . cl. of arr. ed. foreseth , hold up thy hand , ( and so of the rest ) : you that are sworn look upon the prisoners , and hearken to their cause . they stand indicted , &c. mr. whitaker . may it please your lordships , and you gentlemen of the jury ▪ the prisoners at the barr stand indicted for felony and pyracy , for that they , about the th of may , in the th year of the reign of his present majesty king william , did make an assault on captain gibson ; commander of the ship charles the second , and put him in fear of his life , and pyratically stole away the ship , and all the furniture . and this is laid to be against their duty and allegiance , and against the peace of our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity . to which indictment they have pleaded , not guilty . we shall go on to call our witnesses , and prove the charge against the prisoners at the barr , and doubt not but you will do your duty . then dr. littleton , advocate general to his majesty , in his high court of admiralty . spake as follows , gentlemen of the jury , you have heard the indictment opened , and we shall now call our witnesses , who will relate to you what enormous and horrid crimes the prisoners at the barr have committed in the prosecution ▪ of the fact laid in the indictment ; crimes , that the bare intention ▪ had they not taken effect , would have merited the highest punishment ; but this is not their case , for they were not disappointed of their wicked lusts and desires ▪ for as their crimes are great , so have they been consummate as well as voluntary and malitious . i may well say , that their wickedness has been as boundless and as merciless , as the element upon which their crimes have been committed , nor is there any part of the world that hath not been sensible of their rage and barbarity . therefore gentlemen , as you are lovers of christianity , as you are lovers of honesty , nay , as you are lovers of your selves , who bear the character of honest men , if we prove this charge against the prisoners , you must and ought to find them guilty , remembring that the doing iustice upon wicked and profligate men , is the greatest mercy and protection to the good and honest ; we shall therefore proceed to call our witnesses , not doubting but that you will act like honest men , for the honour and welfare of your countrey , without having any respect to the dishonourable proceedings of the former iury. mr. whitaker . call io. gravet . ( he appeared , and was sworn . ) let him stand up . mr. soll. gen. mr. gravet , pray will you give my lords and the jury an account what you know of the prisoners running away with the ship charles the second . i. gravet . i was second mate in the ship at that time . there was violent hands laid on me , and i was seized , and a pistol clapt to my breast , and carried away . mr. soll. gen. who did it ? begin before . i. gravet . i was seized by the carpenter of the ship , he took me by the throat , and clapt a pistol to my breast , l. c. i. treby . begin where the ship was lying . l. c. i. holt. you was a mate in this ship , now pray give an account of the whole matter . i. gravet . i was upon my watch upon the deck . prisoners . pray speak up . i. gravet . and there was a boat came from the iames gally , with people in her . and as soon as the boat came , the carpenter seized me , and took me by the throat , and clapt a pistol to me , and said , if i resisted i was a dead man. they took me , one by one arm , and another by the other , and led me to my cabin . and one with a pistol stood at my cabin door , till they were got two leagues without the groin . then every came to speak to cap. gibson , who was then sick , and was guarded on both sides . and when he had done speaking with him , and was returned from cap. gibson , he came to me again , and said , i suppose you do not intend to go with us . i said , i would not . then i , and the rest that would not go with them , had liberty to go ashore . and i would have gone to my coffer and taken my cloaths , but they would not let me , and told me i should carry no more than my cloaths on my back . mr. so. gen. did any of the prisoners at the barr say so ? i. gravet . that i cannot tell . mr. coniers . then go on . i. gravet . then i went to every , and i had some of my cloaths , he was so kind to give me them , he gave me a coat and wastcoat , and his commission that he left behind him , and w. may took me by the hand and wished me well home , and bid me remember him to his wife . mr. coniers . was there liberty for any of them that would to go ashore . i. gravet . cap. gibson told me so , and there were about went off . mr. coniers . no matter what cap. gibson told you , you say you went off ; might any one that would go ? i. gravet . that i cannot tell . mr. coniers . you say there was about went off , would the boat hold more ? i. gravet . yes , sir. mr. cowper . did you see any hindered that would have gone off ? were any of the prisoners at the barr there ? i. gravet . no. mr. soll. gen. do you know ed. foreseth , &c. i. gravet . i know some of them . mr. coniers . name the men that you say you know . i. gravet . ioseph dawson , w. may , i. sparks . mr. soll. gen. they belonged to what ship ? io. gravet . to the charles . mr. coniers . was there not a boat came from the ship iames , before you went away ? was there any of the prisoners at the barr that came in that boat ? i. gravet . there were about that we had account of . mr. coniers . from what ship did they come ? i. gravet . from the iames. mr. coniers . were any of the prisoners at the barr any of them ? i. gravet . indeed sir , i cannot tell . cl. of arr. call t. druit . ( who appeared , and was sworn . ) mr. soll. gen. mr. druit , was you aboard the ship called the charles the second , when she was carried away ? t. druit . no , sir. mr. soll. gen. do you know any thing of the carrying of that ship away ? t. druit . i was not in that ship ▪ i was mate of the iames. and about came one from aboard the charles the second , and askt me for the drunken boatswain ; and i replyed short , and he went away again , and said the ship was going to be run away withal . whereupon i went with ten men to recover the ship. and after i had advised with the commander , i ordered the pinnace to be mann'd ; and when i came , the last that went into the boat was pike ; and i bid them put back , and they would not , but went away to the ship charles . mr. coniers . how many were there that went away in that boat ? t. druit . about five and twenty . mr. coniers . did you know all the men ? were any of the prisoners at the barr there ? look on them . t. druit . yes , my lord , there was ed. foreseth , w. bishop , and ia. lewis . l. c. i. holt. what boat did they go away with , the iames boat ? t. druit . yes , my lord. l. c. i. holt. then they came from the iames to the charles the second . name their names again . t. druit . ed. foreseth , ia. lewis , and w. bishop . mr. soll. gen. you saw them go off , did you not ? t. druit . it was so dark that we could not see them . mr. cowper . were these three men sent ? t. druit . they were sent . mr. cowper . or did they go of their own head ? t. druit . no , i do not say so . but i went to command them back again , and they refused . mr. cowper . did they make any answer ? t. druit . no , they only went away damning and sinking . mr. coniers . were there any guns sent after them ? t. druit . yes . mr. coniers . what was it for ? t. druit . it was to bring them back again . mr. cowper . and they would not come back ? t. druit . they did not come . mr. cowper . then they would not come . cl. of arr. call david creagh ( who was sworn . ) prisoner . this man is a prisoner for pyracy , my lord. l. c. i. holt. what if he be ? prisoner . i do not understand law , i hope your lordship will advise us . l. c. holt. i will do you all right . if he be so , that is no objection against him ; he may be a good witness for all that . cl. of arr. he is not a prisoner for pyracy , but for treason . l. c. i. holt. tho he be a prisoner for treason , he is not attainted . what is his name ? cl. of arr. david creagh . mr. soll. gen. what do you know about the prisoners running away with the ship charles ? d. creagh . upon the th of may , , i came to the groin , in company with the boatswain and several others , on board the charles ; and when i was going in to the captain of the charles , captain gibson , i found mr. every , the carpenter , and some others , drinking a bowl of punch : and after i was come from the captain , i came and sate down with them ; and mr. may drank an health to the captain , and prosperity to their voyage : and we not knowing their design then , thought it was to our lawful captain , and prosperity to the voyage he was designed for . l. c. i. holt. what was your voyage ? d. creagh . it was to the spanish indies . and afterwards the company broke up , and retired , and went to their cabins . and when we were in our cabins , we heard a great noise above deck ; and captain humphrys , that commanded the gally , called to us , to tell us his men were run away with the boat , and were gone to captain gibson . to which every answered , that he knew that well enough . so the men came aboard , and as i was coming out of my cabin , to see what the matter was , i was met by every , the carpenter , and two dutchmen ; and they obliged me to retire again to my cabin . and cap. humpreys fired two guns at us . but we presently gotout of reach of the guns , and proceeded on the design . and i came out of my cabin , and went on the quarter-deck , where i met every and the carpenter together ; every was cunning the ship. l. c. i. holt. what is the meaning of that ? d. creagh . that is , to direct in the steering of her . so every took me by the hand , and ask'd me if i would go with him ? and i answered , i did not know his design . he said , there were but few that knew it . says i , tell me who do know it , that if you will not tell me your self , i may ask them that can tell me . but he said , we should all know by to morrow morning eight a clock . i told him , that would be too late to repent of the design . the carpenter stood by him , and said , do you not see this , cock ? yes , says i , i do . says he , this man , and old may , and knight , i can trust with any thing , they are true cocks of the game , and old sports-men . then said i , i suppose they know your design . yes , says he ▪ they do , and if it were a thing of ten times the consequence , they should know it . upon this the carpenter came to me , and said , if you do not go down , i will knock you on the head. and as i was going down , i met with w. may , the prisoner at the barr. what do you do here ? says he . i made him no answer , but went down to my cabin ▪ and he said , god damn you , you deserve to be shot through the head , and he then held a pistol to my head. then i went to my cabin , and presently came orders from every , that those that would go ashore , should prepare to be gone . and when the captain was got out of bed ▪ who was then very ill of a feaver , every came and said , i am a man of fortune ▪ and must seek my fortune . says cap. gibson , i am sorry this happens at this time . says he , if you will go in the ship , you shall still command her . no , says cap. gibson , i never thought you would have served me so , who have been kind to all of you ; and to go on a design against my owners orders , i will not do it . then , says every , prepare to go ashore . upon which , the captain , and several others of us , went into the boat. when we were by the ships side , i heard them order the doctor to be secured ; but if there was any more would go into the boat they might . and we came into the boat to the number of sixteen . and they gave us four oars in the pinnace , and set us a drift . l. c. i. holt. where did he set you ? d. creagh . he set us aboard the iames , my lord. l. c. i. holt. that is , you were turned off from this expedition . d. creagh . yes , my lord. mr. coniers . was there any room for more in the boat ? d. creagh . yes there was . l. c. i. holt. was there liberty for any more to go ? d. creagh . yes , my lord. mr. soll. gen. what do you know of the prisoners at the barr ? d. creagh . i know only w. may. mr. cowper . what time past from the coming of the boat , to the time of your going off ? d. creagh . about two hours . sir. mr. cowper . was there any guns fired in that time ? d. creagh . yes , sir , one or two from the iames by cap. humphreys . mr. cowper . was this done in the ship with silence ? or was there any uproar , or opposition ? d. creagh . no , there could be no opposition : for the men came from the whole squadron , and came upon us and surprized us , being assisted by those that belonged to the charles . mr. cowper . but did no body make opposition to their going ? did not cap. gibson ? d. creagh . no , cap. gibson could not , being sick. l. c. i. holt. but he went ashore ? d. creagh . yes , my lord. l. c. i. holt. was any body stopt that would go ? d. creagh . no , my lord , none but the doctor . mr. soll. gen. now call io. dan : who appeared and was sworn . mr. coniers . what ship were you aboard of at the groin ? i. dan. the charles the second . mr. coniers . now pray give my lord and the jury an account , what you know of the taking away of the ship charles the second , and what past there . i. dan. yes , sir , vve came to the groin , and had been there about three or four months , and we had been about eight months out of england , and we lay for our vvages , and there was no vvages to be got . but in as much as we wanted vvages , every , and several others , contrived to carry this ship away . so that night , which was sunday , they went ashore ; and when they came aboard again , made some men privy to it , whom i know not . and the monday follovving , i think , the packet vvent out in the morning , and the night being fair , was ordered to give notice . and they came to the dove , and about nine or ten her boat broke off , and she haled us : for they told cap. humphreys they vvere coming to run avvay vvith our ship. so he hales the iames. and presently some of the officers came and ordered their pinnace to be mann'd , and it was so . and when they gave this order , there was every and or men. and as they came aboard , our cables were cut , and ready to go . and coming under the castle , we cut all the boats but two , and stood out to sea about two or three leagues . and there every went to cap. gibson , and as they said , to ask him if he would go with them , or not ? he said , no. then he said , he must prepare to go ashore ; and he did so , and several others with him . and the word was given about , that they that would go ashore might go ; but whether these men heard it or no , i cannot tell ; and no mans name was mentioned to be stopt , but the doctor . and when they went away , they cry'd , there was water in the boat , and they desired a bucket of us , to heave it over , and we gave them one ; and away they went , i think , about of them , and no more did offer to go as i saw , nor did i see any hinder any that would go : and afterwards , they that went off , went about their business , and we about our business . and we came to the isle of may , and victual'd our selves there . and there we met with three english ships , out of which we took some necessarys for our selves , and among the rest several men , nine men we took out of them . mr. soll. gen. were the prisoners at the barr in the ship , when they went away ? i. dan. yes , mr. soll. gen. name them . i. dan. ed. foreseth , w. may , i. lewis , io. sparks , w. bishop . mr. coniers . which of them was aboard the charles , that belong'd to her ? io. dan. w. may , and i. sparks , and ed. foreseth , ia. lewis , and w. bishop , came from the iames. mr. cowper . was it not generally understood , that they were going to run away with the ship , when they came to cap. gibson ? i. dan. yes , sir , they knew to be sure . mr. soll. gen. did you know that they assented to it ? i. dan. no , sir , i did not hear them say so . mr. i. eyers . did they desire to go ashore with the rest ? i. dan. i saw none hindered . l. c. i. holt. was ed. foreseth in the ship then ? i. dan. ed. foreseth was in the ship then . l. c. i. holt. was he at the isle of may , taking in necessaries with you ? i. dan. yes , sir , l. c. i. holt. vvhat did he do in the company ? i. dan. he was in the ship , and came from the iames. l. c. i. holt. and so did bishop , and so did lewis . i. dan. yes , my lord , these three , and the other two belong'd to the charles . mr. whitaker . did any of the ships crew go ashore at the isle of may ? i. dan. yes , sir , i think so . mr. soll. gen. but i think , you say , that the word vvas given about , that any might go that vvould . mr. coniers . go on vvith the proceedings after you vvere at the isle of may. i. dan. after vve had victual'd , vve took in some men. prisoners . vve have been tryed for that already , my lord. l. c. i. holt. go on . i. dan. after vve had been there , and took in vvhat vve had occasion for ; our quarter-master said , he vvould give them bills for vvhat he took of them . then vve vvent to the coast of guinea , and took several negroes , and carried them avvay vvith us . and aftervvard vve vvent to the island of princes , vvhere lay tvvo danes , and vve fought them , and took them ; and after vve had taken them , some of the men vvent ashore at the island of princes , and others vvent along vvith us ; and vve brought the ships to vandepo , and burnt one , and carried one vvith us . then vve came to cape lopes . l. c. i. holt. vvhere is that ? i. dan. under the equinoctial line . and there vve fired a shot through the little one to sink her , for the men could not agree , and so vve could not carry her vvith us . vve vvent about the cape and touch'd at madagascar . dr. littleton . had not these men their part and share of the plunder ? l. c. i. holt. you go too fast , sir. mr. coniers . what was the next ship you met with , after you had rounded the cape ? i. dan. the next was a small vessel , about or tun , and we put her ashore , and took a small matter out of her , and let her lie . and there vve put this gentleman , mr. may , ashore . and vve seeing english ships a coming , vve left him there , and vvent to the equinoctial line : and aftervvards , for vvant of bread and water , vve came again , and took another small vessel , and some rice and pody out of her , and sunk her , and then vvent to the cape again , and took in w. may again ; and met another vessel , and took rice and meal out of her , and sunk her too . and then vve vvent to the red sea , to a town called meat , and the people would not trade with us , and we burnt it . and thence we went up to the red sea , as far as we could and going up the cape adin , we met with two english privateers more , and they came and joyned with us . l. c ▪ i. holt. you call them privateers , but were they such privateers as you were ? i. dan. yes , my lord. i suppose they had commissions at first , but i suppose they did not run so far as that . mr. coniers . did you go all on the same design ? i. dan. yes , they sailed on with us . and we made the best of our way , and came up into the red sea in a little time , and came to an anchor at bobs key , and had lain there but a night and a day , and there came up englishmen more from america , and they likewise consorted with us ▪ and we lay there about weeks ; and in that time we expected the fleet to come down . mr. coniers . vvhat fleet ? i. dan. the moorish fleet , that came from mocha . they past us on saturday night unseen , and we took a vessel which gave us an account that they were gone . and then we followed them , and about days after we made land , we came up with one of them of about or tuns , and we fired a broad-side at her , and small shot , and took her , which , after we had taken her , we plundered , and took out some gold and silver . mr. coniers . and vvhat did you do vvith it ? i. dan. vve brought it aboard our ship. mr. coniers . did you share it ? i. dan. not then , but after vve took the other ship. mr. coniers . vvhat vvas that other ship ? i. dan. after we had taken her , we put some men aboard to keep her with us ; and about two days after , we were lying at anchor at st. iohns , and there was a great ship called the gunsway ; and we weigh'd anchor , and fought her about two hours , and took her , and put some men aboard her , and plunder'd her . and after we had done as much as we thought convenient , vve sent her to surat vvith the people in her . and then vve stood further to the indian coast , and shared our money about a vveek after . l. c. i. holt. that vvas a brave prize , vvas it not , the best you had all the voyage ? i. dan. yes , my lord. l. c. i. holt. did you all share ? i. dan. yes , all that vvere in the ship. l. c. i. holt. you have given a good account of this matter . was ed. foreseth there ? i. dan. yes , my lord. l. c. i. holt. vvhat did he do ? vvas he active ? j. dan. i did not see him act . l. c. j. holt. had he a share ? j. dan. yes my lord , he had . l. c. j. holt. vvas w. may there ? j. dan. yes my lord. l. c. j. holt. vvhat did he do there ? j. dan. he could do but little then ; he had his share . l. c j. holt. and vvhen you took him in again , vvhat did he do ? did he do his business as a seaman ? j. dan. yes my lord , till he vvas sick . l. c. j. holt. vvas w. bishop there ? j. dan. yes my lord , he vvas among the rest . l. c. j. holt. vvhat did he do ? did he consent and agree to vvhat vvas done ? j. dan. he had share of the money . l. c. j. holt. did ia. lewis share too ? j. dan. he had a share , as far as vvas allovved by the company . l. c. j. holt. did j. sparks share vvith you too ? j. dan. yes my lord , as far as the company thought fit to give him . mr. cowper . vvhen you say , as the company thought fit , vvhat do you mean ? hovv did they share it ? j. dan. some had l. some , others . mr. cowper . had all the prisoners some share ? j. dan. yes sir , all had some share . mr. whitaker . vvhat did you do vvith the charles the d , after the voyage ? j. dan. vve left her at providence . l. c. j. holt. if any of you prisoners at the bar vvill ask him any questions , you may . mr. justice turton . vvhat provisions vvere aboard the charles vvhen she vvas taken avvay ? j. dan. i cannot tell . mr. justice turton . what quantity of bread vvas there ? j. dan. a pretty deal , i cannot tell the quantity . mr. justice turton . and vvere there any guns aboard her , and small arms ? j. dan. yes my lord , there vvere . w. may. my lord , may i speak for my self ? l. c. j. holt. if you vvill ask him any questions you may ; you shall be heard again to speak for your self by and by . w. may. i desire he may be askt vvhere i vvas taken sick ? l. c. j. holt. he asks you vvhere he vvas taken sick ? j. dan. i cannot justly tell that , i think it vvas at allibore , at the coast of guinea . w. may. i did not lie dovvn vvith it ? j. dan. no , you did not , but your first being taken sick vvas at allibore . w. may. my lord , i desire you vvill ask him , vvhether he thinks i had any knovvledge of the going avvay of the ship ? l. c. i. holt. you hear vvhat he says , what do you say ? i. dan. i knovv nothing of that . l. c. j. holt. you vvere there , and you had a share of the prize ; you drank an health to the success of your voyage . w. may. i hope , my lord , you vvill not be angry for asking questions . l. c. j. holt. no , no body is angry , you may ask vvhat questions you vvill . then philip middleton vvas called and svvorn . mr. coniers . pray tell vvhat you knovv of taking avvay the ship charles the d ? p. middleton . i cannot say any thing of running avvay vvith the ship ; for i vvas asleep then : but afterwards , in the morning , they called up all hands ; and the captain said , every man should share alike , only he would have two shares . l. c. j. holt. who said so ? p. middleton . cap. every . from thence they went to bonyvis , and took in some salt and from bonyvis they went to the isle of may , and there they took english ships , and plundered them ; and they took the governour aboard their own ship till they had done ( for then they could demand what victuals they had a mind to ) and then they sent him away again and from the isle of may they went to the coast of guinea , where they put out english colours , to make the natives come aboard to trade , and when they came aboard , they surprized them , and took their gold from them , and tied them with chains , ond put them into the hold. and when they came to a place called the island of princes , they gave of them away for slaves : and then they went to vandepoe , where they clean'd their ship ; and from vandepoe they went to cape lopes , and from cape lopes to annibo , and from annibo about the cape ; and at madagascar they watered their ship , and got provisions , and cows to salt up ; and from thence they went to ioanna , and from ioanna they went to take a junk , and took rice out of her , and sunk her ; and from thence they went to the equinoctial line , and because they were short of water and rice , they went back again to iohanna : and the wind being contrary , they went to commeroe ▪ and there they met a small french vessel ▪ and they took her , and sunk her ; and then went to iohanna again and there took in mr. may again : and then went to meet ; and because the natives would not trade with them , they burnt their town : and then they went to bobs key , by the mouth of the red sea : but before that , they met with an english vessel , that was on the same account that we were , and we rode there a night or two ; and they saw there another sail a coming , which proved to be another english vessel ▪ and in the morning they saw two more , may , farrel , and wake , were the captains : and on saturday night all the mocho fleet passed by : and on sunday morning they took another vessel , that told them the said fleet was gone by ; and so they consulted whether they should follow them , or stay there . and then they went after them and overtook them , and took one that was about three or four hundred tun , and took gold and silver out of her ; and sent men aboard her to plunder and keep her . and next day they spied another sail , and got up their anchor , and stood to her , and took her ; she was called the gunsway ; they killed several men aboard , and when they had taken and plundered the ship , they left the men aboard to go to surat again . and then they went to rachipool in the east-indies , and got water and necessaries ; and from thence to degorees ▪ and watered again ; and then to dascaran , where they set about french men ashore and danes , and some english : for they were afraid , if they came to england , and were caught ▪ they should be hang'd , and they thought themselves there secure . from that place they went to ascension , and then to the island providence in the west-indies : and then they wrote a letter to the governour , to know if he would let them come in , and said they would present the governour with pieces of eight , and two pieces of gold , if he would let them come in ; and the captain , because he had a double share ▪ he offered pieces of eight , and four of gold ; and with that they sent some men down , adams and others , with the letter : and they came again , with a letter , from the island , that they should be welcome , and come and go again when they pleased . mr. coniers . look on the prisoners at the barr , were they all there ? l. c. i. holt. do you know ed. foreseth ? was he there ? did he belong to the charles the d ? p. middleton . he came from the iames. l. c. i. holt. was w. may there ? ph. middleton . he was aboard the charles . l. c. i. holt. was w. bishop there ? ph. middleton . w. bishop came from the iames. l. c. i. holt. was i. lewis there ? ph. middleton . yes , he came from the iames. l. c. i. holt. was io. sparks there ? p. middleton . yes , he was aboard the charles . l. c. i. holt. had all the ment heir shares ? ph. middleton . yes , such as the company thought fit to allow them , all of them . l. c. i. holt. had these men their shares of the several prizes they took ? ph. middleton . yes , they had . l. c. i. holt. were they active in the taking of the prize ? ph. middleton . they were , as far as i saw . l. c. i. holt. were not divers others set ashore , besides cap. gibson ? ph middleton . i never heard any repine , or wish they had been ashore , or that they had never come along with the ship. l. c. i. holt. but do you know of any others that were set ashore ? ph. middleton . yes , a great many , mr. gravet and several others . mr. cowper . i think , you said , some french and english were set ashore in the indies . ph. middleton . yes , sir. mr. cowper . were they set ashore willingly ? ph. middleton . they desired to be set ashore . iury-man . he says , in the morning cap. every called them above deck , and gave leave to any to go ashore , that were not willing to go with them ; we desire to know whether any of the prisoners were there at that time ? ph. midleton . i know not that , all hands were called up ▪ mr. iustice turton . what number of persons were aboard , when the dividend was made ? ph. midleton . about a hundred and sixty . mr. iustice turton . what might the shares be ? ph. midleton . some a thousand pound , some six hundred , some five hundred , and some less , according as the company thought they deserved . mr. iustice turton . had not you a share ? ph. midleton . yes , what the company thought fit , and they told me that would serve to put me out an apprentice , and that i should never go near my friends . mr. iustice turton . how much was that you had ? ph. midleton . above an hundred pound . mr. coniers . what became of it ? ph. midleton . io. sparks robb'd me of it . l. c. i. holt. the kings counsel have done with the evidence , and therefore now is your time for to speak , if you have any thing to say for your selves . ed. foreseth , what have you to say ? ed. foreseth . my lord , i desire you would call mr. druit , and ask him whether i was one of the pinnaces crew . l. c. i. holt. you hear what he says ? t. druit . yes you were , and i commanded you to come back , and you refused e. foreseth . did not you command me to go ? t. druit . yes , and i afterwards commanded you to come back , and you refused . e. foreseth . you did not command me back . t. druit . yes i did , and fired at you , and shot through the boat. e. foreseth . i held water with my oar , that was all i could do . l. c. i. holt. what did you cammand him to do ? t. druit . to rescue the ship. l. c. i. holt. instead of rescuing the ship , you run away with her . he commanded you back , and you refused to come back . e. foreseth . i could not bring her back my self , nor come back , unless i should leap over board . l c. i. holt. have you any more to say ? e. foreseth . my lord , when i was in the boat , i knew not who was in it , nor how many . when i came aboard the charles , the sails were loose , and i was in a very sorry condition ; they cut the boat off , and put her a drift , i could not get into her , she was gone in a minutes time , i did not know which way or what men there were in her , nor heard nothing till two a clock the next day . and i hope , my lord , as we are but poor sea-faring men , and do not understand the law , you will take it into consideration . l. c. i. holt. but all you sea-men understand that law , that it is not lawful to commit piracy , and he that doth deserves to be hang'd . e. foreseth . my lord , i never did . l. c. i. holt. did you think it no piracy to rob ? e. foreseth . i was forc'd to do what i did . m. i. eyers . you all compell'd one another . e. foreseth . my lord , i was sent of an errand . i hope as we are poor men in this condition , you will take it into consideration . l. c. i. holt. we shall . have you any more to say ? e. foreseth . no , my lord. l. c. i. holt. w. may , what do you say ? w. may. here is one of the king's evidence , that testifies that i knew nothing of the ships going away , and i believe very few knew of it , i believe not above nine or ten . l. c. i. holt. none of them say you were at the consult . but one says that you said , god damn you , you deserve to be shot through the head ; and held a pistol to him . w. may. i never was any higher than the under deck , i was coming up the hatch-way , and captain every was standing , and commanding the ship. l. c. i holt. every was no officer , he had nothing to do to command ; he was under captain gibson , and took the ship from gibson . w. may. my lord , i know nothing of the ships going away . l. c. i. holt. you should have stuck to captain gibson , and endeavoured to suppress the insolence of every . cap. gibson was the commander , you ought to have obeyed him ; and if any had resisted him , or gone to put a force upon him , you should have stood by him . w. may. i was surprised . l. c. i. holt. how ? w. may. by cap. every , and knew nothing of it . l. c. j. holt. you were zealous from the beginning , and said to one , damn you ▪ you deserve to be shot through the head. m j. turton . and one says you drank a health to your good voyage . w may. presently after i heard this rumour , i came up the hatch-way , and cap. every says , you may , i believe you do not love this way , pray get down to your cabin . so i went to my cabin , which one that is now at virginia could 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; which i hope will be considered , that i cannot have my witnesses for me . l. c. j. holt. what have you more to say ? have you any witnesses to call . w. may. i stay'd in the cabin a considerable time . i was thinking , i must leave my old captain without seeing him ; and i begg'd them to give me leave to come to him ; and there was two men stood with naked cutlaces , and would not let me come to him . we had some confabulation together , and i begg'd the favor to come in , and at last they permitted me ; and the doctor was anointing the commanders temples . and as i was coming along , i had my hand cut ; and i went to the doctor , to desire him to bind up my hand . when i came out again , they began to hurry the men away . here was mr. gravet , the second mate , who is now one of the king's evidence ; and i told him he should remember me to my wife , i am not like to see her ; for none could go , but who they pleased : for when those men were in the boat , they cryed to have a bucket ▪ or else they should sink , they having three leagues to go : and i do not know how they could go so far with more , when their boat was like to sink with those that were in her , as some of the king's evidence have testified . l. c. j. holt. who will you call ? w. may. mr. dan. ( who appear'd . ) l. c. j. holt. mr. dan ▪ answer the question , whether there was calling for a bucket several times by the men that were in the boat. ja. dan they did call , and a bucket was given them to pump with . l. c. j. holt. you were willing to be rid of them . w. may. i have more to say . afterwards , if i should have denied to go with them , i might have been kill'd by them ; and i knew not whether it be better to be accessary to my own death , or to suffer by the law of the nation . sir ch. hedges . you seem to say that you were under a constraint and terrour . did you make any complaint or discovery so soon as you had liberty , or at your first coming into the king's dominions ? w. may. yes , at virginia . s. c. h. where did you first arive in england ? w. m. at bristol . s. c. h. when you came to bristol , did you discover it to any magistrate ? w. m. when i came to bristol , i had a design to discover it to the lords of the admiralty . l. c. j. h. did you go to a magistrate ? w. m. i was several days in the king's collectors house , and did discover the whole to him ; and at providence . l. c. j. h. you speak now of providence , but in england who did you discover it to ? w. m. i was taken sick , and could not go abroad ▪ l. c. i. h. you might have sent to the mayor of bristol . w. m. i knew nothing of it , i intended to declare it to none but the lords of the admiralty . i knew no man there , but two men that were fellow-tradesmen in virginia . i came from virginia by the first ship ; and if that ship had come away before the fleet , i had been at home long before . i lay sick at bristol four or five days , and the fifth day i got passage for london in the coach ; and was taken three miles off bath by the king's messenger , by one who betrayed me , and i was carried back to bath again . and there was the duke of devonshire ▪ ; and there they examined the whole matter , in every particular , as i have now declared to the court. and my lord desired the messenger should take me away again , and see me safe to london , which was all he said to me . i have more to say , as to my being put ashore at joanna . i had no place to go to , but lay in a lamentable condition , i could not put water to my mouth without help , and remained useless of hands or feet , despairing of my life . i desired to go ashore , to see if the air would do me any good ; and i went ashore at joanna , with another man , gunning , and others for refreshment . so the second day we went in , there appears three ships , which were east-india men. captain every being surprised by these ships , hastened his men and water aboard to get out to sea , that he might not be surprised in the road without his men on board , who were come ashore for the sick. and i told them , i will not go with you , i will rather trust to the mercy of my countrey-men , or the mercy of the negroes ; i should endanger my life , if i go aboard ; if i stay , no question my countrey-men will have compassion on me ; and if i have committed any thing worthy of death , they have authority to put me to death according to the law of the nation . and i applied my self to mr. edgcomb , when he came ashore , and he gave me scurolous language . but i replied , i am a weak man , for me to stay behind is death ; i had rather suffer death by the laws of my countrey , then to be left to the mercy of these negroes . mr. edgcomb says , i will take you down with me , and will hang you there too . l. c. j. h. where ? w. m. at bombay , where he said i should be tried . his mate , and several other english-men came to see me , and brought one thing or other to refresh me . and at last , at night he sent his doctor and purser to me , who said , the captain is just now sending his boat for you . i replied , i am ready , here is all i have in the world , and he goes away about two a clock in the morning . and i remained seven or eight weeks after at the mercy of those negroes , and had perished , but that a negro hearing an english-man was there came to me ; he lived at bednai-green , and spoke english very well . he went from england in the ship rochester , taken at guinea some time before . the captain commanded this negro to go for the long-boat , and turn her adrift ; which he does , but goes away with her himself ; and in the fight , says , the ship blew up by an accidental fire , and several were lost . this negro i got to look after me , and he did really feed me , and got me all necessaries belonging to me : and by that means i saved my life . now when captain every came in again , i could not go nor stir . l. c. j. h. do not call him captain , he was a pirate . w. m. he commanded me , i was forced to obey him . l. c. j. h. for that matter call gravet again , because you and he were very kind together ; you shook hands with him , and bid him farewel , and remember you to your wife . mr. gravet , do you remember when you went into the boat ? did w. may take his leave of you , or was he unwilling to be left behind ? j. gravet . when we had liberty to go out of the ship , this man , w. may , took me by the hand and wished me well home , and bid me remember him to his wife , and was very merry and jocund , and knew whither they were going . mr. j. turton . did he express any inclination to go with you ? j. gravet . no , my lord , not at all . l. c. j. h. have you any more to say . w. may. yes , my lord , i remained in this condition till i came to providenee ; and the king's evidence can testifie what i say . i only beg mercy of this honourable bench , to consider my weak state and condition that i have been in . l. c. j. h. have you done ? w. may. yes , my lord. l. c. j. h. then the next . w. bishop , what have you to say ? w. bishop . i belonged to the ship james , and at the groyn the men began to complain about wages , and that was the first begining of the disturbance about this ploting . we were shipt out of england , in sir james hubland's service , to the spanish west-indies . upon this mutiny among the men for their wages , several men went aboard the kings ships ▪ and desired to be entertained on board any of them to go for england ; and we all went away again to the ship because we could not be entertain'd . but this design of everies i did not know of . on the th day capt. humphrys calls , and says , my men are gone aboard the charles , i think . and he calls out , says he , mr. druit , man the pinnace . i being then on the deck , at night , the men all quiet , as i thought , i went into the pinnace , and i was no sooner in , but in comes or more that knew of the design ; but i was then sent , and knew it not . and they put off the boat , and over-powered us ; and several of us would have gone aboard again , and they would not suffer us . and when we came aboard the ship charles , they had cut the cables , and the sails were loose , and several men went from the charls to the iames in a boat ; and they commanded the innocent to do what they pleased , with pistols and cutlaces ; and they commanded me to go into the hold , to do what they pleased . and i not knowing of this matter , the men that were in the boat called , hand the buckets , or we shall sink . and i heard afterwards , that none went ashore , but whom they pleased , that is , every and his crew . and i not knowing of it , could not go ; and if i had known it , i had not been admitted to go . then we were carried two leagues without the groyn . l. c. i. holt. have you any witnesses to call ? w. bishop , the king's evidence is my witness ; he commanded me to go into the boat. l. c. i. holt. will you ask him any questions ? w. bishop . no ▪ my lord. l. c. i. holt. iames lewis ▪ what have you to say ? iames lewis . i had been in france , a little before the ship came to the groyn , a prisoner there ; but i knew nothing of everies design . by the command of our officer i went aboard the boat , and as soon as we were in her , we were over-power'd , and carried away ; they took the oars out of our hands , and carried us to the ship charles . and when we came aboard , they put the boat a drift , and then they commanded me into the fore-castle ; they had arms but we had none , and so were forced to obey them . when the boat was going off , i heard a noise of crying out for a bucket . and when we were gone from the groyn , we were forced to do what they would have us ; it was against my consent , and against my will. l. c. i. holt. io. sparks , what say you ? i. sparks . when captain humphries called to them that were gone into the boat , i was asleep ; but with the noise of gravets crying out , he is coming , i awaked ; and all put the candles out for fear i should see them . and when the men were come aboard , i went on the deck , and they trow'd the hammocks and knock'd me down . l c. i. holt. who did it ? io. sparks . the hammocks they brought from the other ships . i durst not do any otherwise than they bid me ; i was innocent of the thing . i ask'd what they were going to do , and they said they were going for england . l. c. i. holt. who told you so ? i. sparks . iohn dan. l. c. i. holt. i. dan , did you tell i. sparks the ship was going for england ? i. dan. i do not remember i saw him all the night . l. c. i. holt. i would ask you if he had no share of the plunder . i. sparks . i was forced to take it . l. c j. holt. phil. midleton , you had some share , had you not ? phil. midleton . yes , my lord. l. c. j. holt. what became of it ? phil. midleton . they took it away from me . l. c. j. holt. who took it from you ? phil. midleton . i. sparks robb'd me of it by night . l. c. j. holt. did he take all away ? phil. midleton . yes , all that i had there , two hundred seventy odd pieces of gold ; it was in a belt. j. sparks . he took out his money and shewed it to the troopers , and they made him drunk and got it from him ; and the next morning he said they took it from him . phil. midleton . i was forc'd to say so , because if i had said he had it , he would have made no more but to cut my throat . l. c. j. holt , have you any more to say ? j. sparks . no , my lord. mr. soll. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am of counsel in this case for the king against the prisoners at the bar. they are araign'd for a very high crime , a robbery upon the seas . it was not a less crime because committed on the sea , but rather the more . these men had a trust reposed in them to assist their captain in his voyage ; but instead of that , they resist their captain , turn him out , and run away with the ship. they could not find shelter in any other part of the world , and i hope you will make it appear such crimes shall not find shelter here , more than in other parts of the world. these are crimes against the laws of nations , and worse than robbery on the land : for in case of a robbery on the land , we know who is to pay it ; but in a robbery by sea , it often happens that innocent persons bear the loss of what these men do . it has been very plainly proved against the prisoners , that the ship charles was run away with from the groyn . and it is as plain by two witnesses , that all the prisoners at the bar were in this ship ; by three that w. may in particular was one of them ; and by one that w. may was so far concerned , that because i. gravet seem'd to dislike it ▪ he said , he deserved to be shot through the head : so that he that would make himself the most innocent of the five , is most guilty . now they have only this to say for themselves , that they were forced to do what they did . but it has been proved to you that they were not forced ; it was said , all might go that would . and it is not proved on their side , that any one of the prisoners did seem to dissent from their going away . it is proved that they all made use of this ship to very bad purposes ; that they took and plunder'd several ships , and shar'd the booty ▪ we do not produce this to prove them guilty , but to shew that they made use of this ship to this very purpose . now if you allow what they say , that they were forced to go away ; than you must never convict , at any time , one or two highway men that robs in the company of four or five ; for they may say too that they were over-power'd , and forc'd by their company . it is so , not only in case of robbery , but in all other crimes also . they have said a great deal indeed , but without any manner of probability of truth . they have produced no witnesses for themselves , to prove any thing they have said . and the witnesses for the king have given testimony without any exception . and , i hope , you will vindicate the credit of the nation , and find them guilty as the evidence has proved them . l. c. j. holt. gentlemen of the jury , these five prisoners , e. forseth , w. may , w. bishop , ia. lewis and i. sparks , are indicted for a piracy and robbery committed on the high-seas , some distance from the groyn , in taking and carrying away a ship , and several goods therein contained ; she was call'd the charles the second . this was done in may last was two years , . you have heard what evidence has been given on this indictment against the prisoners . it has appear'd that this ship was bound in a voyage to the west-indies . two of the prisoners , w. may and i. sparks , were seamen then on board this ship , and ingaged in the voyage ; the other three were not marriners in that , but in another ship , call'd the james , that lay , at that time , near the groyn ; but they came aboard the ship charles before , and continued on board her when she was carried away . that there was a piracy committed on the ship charles , is most apparent by the evidence that hath been given ; that is , a force was put on the master and some others of the seamen on board her , who because they would not agree to go on a piratical expedition , had liberty to depart , and be set ashore . but the ship was taken from the captain , who was possessed of her for the use of the owners , and was carried away by every and others of his crew that remained on board her ; and others came from the james , which taking was a piracy that is manifested by the use they did put her to , for they did afterwards commit several other piracies with her , and took several english and danish ships , and then went to several islands , countries and places , as to the isles of may and princes , to madagascar , and then to joanna , and afterwards to meat , and then to the red-sea ; and at the entrance of the red-sea committed more piracies , in the manner as you have heard , and has been very particularly described to you . so that i must tell you , beyond all contradiction , the force put on the captain , and taking away this ship , call'd the charles the second , was a piracy ; and for that particular fact these prisoners are now charged . the matter you are now to inquire after , is whether all these prisoners were guilty of this piracy , or which of them . as for ed. foreseth , bishop and lewis , it hath appear'd to you , that they , with others , were aboard the ship james ; and that there was a report spread about of a plot against the captain of the charles the second , and a design to carry that ship away . to prevent which , there were some of these men sent out in a boat , by the captain of the james , to this ship to assist captain gibson , but instead of preventing this piracy , they stayed behind and went along with these men that carried away the ship. as to will. may and io. sparks , that were of this ships crew , they continued on board , and were parties in all those piracies . there was a consult , it seems , by some particular persons , of which every was the ringleader , how to effect this design , captain every as they call him ; though he was no captain , but was under the command of captain gibson that had the conduct of this ship. it 's true , it is not proved to you that these men were at that consult ; for , it seems , they were too many , for they were about that remained on board when the ship was carried off . now for w. may , io. gravet , second mate , that was aboard , and though he had a pistol clapt to him to prevent any resistance , yet had liberty to depart ; and upon his going off discoursed with may , who shook hands with him , and bid him farewel , and remember him to his wife . and therefore it is evident that w. may was under no force to stay ; he staied with his good will , and did consent to the piracy . and then another witness is d. cray , who says , that may was so zealous in the matter , that he said to him , god damn him he deserv'd to be shot through the head. sparks was on board the ship and had a design'd end , and no compulsion was used towards him , but since had liberty to depart ; but the staying behind by the rest , is a great evidence to induce you to believe they were parties in the design ; for why else should not they go ashore as well as others , since there doth not appear any restraint upon them to stay , especially when a general word was given , that those who would go on shoar should go on the deck , and a boat was ready to carry them off . they say , they wanted a bucket in the boat , and they gave them one to lave out the water ; that is a plain evidence they were willing to be rid of those that were not willing to engage with them ; and if they had not approved of the design , they were not hindred from going in the boat. as for those that came from the james , there was no manner of force on them , but they were sent from the capt. to assist the capt. of the charles ; for those two ships having lain near together at the groyn , there was some inteligence of such a design in agitation , and these three forsook their own ship ; every declared his design to some : and he told them what shares they should have ; and because he was their capt. and commander , he thought himself intituled to a doble share . and then you have heard what was done in the whole progress of this wicked design , every one of these men had their share , even this w. may , tho he was sick for some time , and was set ashore at joanna , and at the ships return taken in again , yet he had his share of all the prizes . w. bishop had his share , james lewis had his share , and john sparks had his share ; and , says this young man phillip midleton , i had my share , which was above an hundred pound , which was thought by them to be a good share for a boy ; and sparks took him at a disadvantage , and having an opportunity , took it from him . now if there be a piracy committed tho contrived but by one man , yet if others do concur in it they are equally guilty . now tho these prisoners tell you , there was a force upon them , it is a meer suggesttion , without any manner of evidence ; but there is evidence of their consenting and confederating in this wicked enterprise . indeed there hath been a tryal before , which you have all heard of ; for the city and nation have discoursed of it ; consider therefore the evidence . you have a great trust reposed in you , for you are not to act arbitrarily , but you are accountable to god almighty , to whom you are sworn , and to the government for the verdict you give . if you are not satisfied in your consciences that the evidence is sufficient to find these men guilty ▪ in god's name , acquit them . but if you are satisfied in the sufficiency of the evidence to convict them , you must find them guilty . cl. of ar. cryer , swear an officer to keep the jury ; which was done , and the jury went out to consider of their verdict . and in the mean time , the six prisoners were again araigned upon two several indictments , the one for piratically taking away a moorish ship ; and the other for committing piracy upon two danish ships . to both which indictments joseph dawson pleaded guilty ; the other five pleaded not guilty , and put themselves upon their tryals . then the jury having been withdrawn a little while returned into court. foreman . if there be any evidence to prove that john sparks consented to the runing away of the ship , we desire it may be heard again . l. c. j. h. he was with them at the carrying off the ship , and at the taking of the several prizes , and had his share afterwards . what is consent ? can men otherwise demonsttrate their consent , than by their actions ? juryman . but we understand , my lord , that he was tryed upon his consenting to carry away the ship. l. c. i. holt. what do you mean by consenting ? if a ship be carried away with force from the captain , diverse piracies are committed with her , one continues aboard and receives a share of the profit of the several piracies ; is not that an evidence of consent to the piratical design ? was it not proved that many went out of the ship , that were not willing to go on that design ? and that was with the leave of the rest that remained . mr. i. eyres , and one stood on the deck , and said with a loud voice , that they that will not go may have liberty to go ashore . mr. coniers . no man was hindered but the doctor , being a useful man. l. c. i. holt. when a ship is run away with , and people are aboard that ship so run away with , that proves their consent , unless they can produce evidence to the contrary . mr. i. turton . the captain was in his bed sick of a fever at that time , and was not willing to go with them , and they sent him away from them . mr. i. eyres . and every man had his share . then the iury consulting together a very little time , agreed on their verdict . cl. of ar. gentlemen of the jury , answer to your names , io. degrave . io. degrave . here ( and so of the rest . ) cl. of ar. gentlemen , are you all agreed of your verdict ? iury. yes . cl. of ar. who shall say for you ? iury. our foreman . cl. of ar. set ed. foreseth to the bar. ed. foreseth , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) look upon the prisoner ; is edward foreseth guilty of the piracy and robbery whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of ar. look to him keeper . what goods and chattels , &c. foreman . none that we know of . cl. of ar. w. may , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) is w. may guilty , &c. or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of ar. look to him keeper , &c. w. bishop , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) is w. bishop guilty , &c. or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of ar. look to him keeper , &c. ia. lewis , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) is ia. lewis guilty , &c. or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of ar. look to him keeper , &c. io. sparks , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) is io. sparks guilty , &c. or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of ar. look to him keeper , &c. l. c. i. holt. gentlemen , you have done extreamly well , and you have done very much to regain the honour of the nation , and the city . then the court adjourn'd to friday next the th of novemb. two of the clock in the afternoon . on which day ed. foreseth , &c. were tryed upon two other indictment for several piracies . an abstract of the tryal of ed. foreseth , james lewis , will. may , will. bishop , jo. sparks , ( joseph dawson having pleaded guilty upon his araignment ) at the sessions-house in the old-baily , friday novemb. the th . where were present sir charles hedges iudge of the high-court of admiralty , the lord chief iustice holt , lord chief iustice treby , with several others of his majesties iudges and commissioners . after several challenges made by the prisoners , of the persons returned upon the jury , these twelve gentlemen , were sworn , viz. roger mott iohn iames richard rider william hunt iohn hammond abraham hickman iohn watson benjamin hooper iohn hibbert richard chiswell daniel ray william hatch . then the clerk read the two indictments upon which they were tryed ; viz. one for scifing , robbing and carrying away two ships belonging to denmark , on the th of august , . the other for that they , on the th of september , . in a place leagues distant from surrat , did forcibly and piratically set upon a moorish ship , and take away her tackle and goods , to a great value . then dr. newton , one of his majesties advocates , spoke to the iury , as followeth . my lord , and gentlemen of the iury , the crime the prisoners at the bar stand charged with , and which has been opened to you , upon the indictments , is piracy ; which is the worst sort of robbery , both in its nature and its effects , since it disturbs the commerce and friendship betwixt different nations ; and if left unpunished , involved them in war and blood : for sovereign powers and nations have no courts of justice afterwards to refort to , as the subjects of princes have , in their own countries , for redress or punishment ; but they can only have recourse to arms and war , which how expensive , and how dangerous they are , and what calamities and ruin they carry along with them , no person can be a stranger to . so that those who bring not such criminals to judgment , when it lies in their power , and is their duty to do so , are answerable , in a great measure , before god and man , for all the fatal consequences of such acquittals , which bring a scandal on the publick justice , and are often attended with publick calamities . it is not therefore , gentlemen , to be supposed , that wise or honest men , ( and there are none who would be thouhght to be otherwise ) who love their country , and wish its peace and prosperity , would be guilty in that kind . gentlemen , this piracy was begun in europe , carried on through africa , and ended in the remotest indies ; so that , in a manner ▪ all the world is concerned in this tryal , and expects and demands justice of them , if they are guilty , at your hands . then the witnesses were produced to prove the facts charged upon the prisoners , viz. io. dan , david cray , phil. midleton , and others ; who fully proved against them , that the prisoners , with several other wicked persons , not yet taken , did forcibly take away the ship charles the second from the lawful commander , captain gibson , with a piratical design . and in the said ship did afterwards commit several piracies ; at the isle of may they took three english ships . from there they went to the coast of guinea , and when some of the natives came on board with their gold ▪ to trade with them , they took away their gold ▪ and carried them away for slaves . and they went to the isle of princes and took two danish ships , and took out what was in them ; viz. pound weight of gold-dust , and other merchandise ; and they offered to restore one of the ships to the master after they had robbed her , but the master he said she was insured , and he would not take her again . and afterwards they burnt one of the ships , and carried away the other . then they went to bobs key , at the mouth of the red-sea , waiting for the moco fleet , which one night past by them unseen ; but were informed the next day that they were gone . and then calling a council they agreed to follow them ; and accordingly went after them , and came up with one of them ▪ which was about tun , and with small resistance took her , and put some men on board her , and took out gold and silver out of her to the value of or l. with other merchandise . and afterwards met with the ship called the gunsway , and robbed her likewise of all her furniture ▪ to a very great value . and about a week after they shared all the prizes they had taken ▪ and some had a thousand pound , some had eight hundred , some seven hundred , some five hundred ; every man in the ship his share , as they thought they deserved . and it was particularly proved by the evidence against the prisoners that they had their shares . the more ▪ particular 〈◊〉 of which is already printed at large , in the foregoing tryal . when the king's evidence had done , the prisoners were permitted to say what they could in their defence ; out the same appearing to be very weak , the l. c. j. holt summed up the evidence ▪ and the jury going out to consider their verdict , after a short stay , brought them in all guilty . then the court adjourned to the th of november following . after the tryal of john murphey was over , the pirates were brought to the bar. cl. of ar. ioseph dawson , you by your own confession are convicted of piracy and robbery . what have you to say why sentence of death shall not be passed upon you according to law. io. dawson . i submit my self to the king and the honourable bench. cl. of ar. edward foreseth , what have you to say , &c. foreseth . i am an innocent man ; and went on to jushifie himself . &c. iudge of the admiralty . you and the rest of the prisoners at the bar have had a very fair tryal ▪ and been fully heard upon your defence ; but the jury your countrey-men , upon whom you put your selves to be tried , have found you guilty . so that the insisting upon your justification cannot now avail you any thing , the verdict being given ; but if you have any thing to offer in arrest of judgment , or can shew any cause why the court should not proceed to give judgment according as the law directs , against persons convicted of piracy , you shall have liberty to speak , and will be heard . foreseth . i desire to be sent into india to suffer there . cl. of ar. william may , what have you to say , &c. william may. my lord , i being a very sickly man , never acted in all the voyage . i have served my king and countrey this thirty years , and am very willing to serve the east-india company where they please to command me ; and desire the honourable bench to consider my case , and if i must suffer , i desire to be sent into india to suffer there . cl. of ar. william bishop , what have you to say , &c. will. bishop . i was forced away ; and when i went was but years old , and am now but , and desires mercy of the king and the court. iames lewis . i am an ignorant person , and leave my self to the king's mercy . iohn sparks . i leave my self to the king's mercy , and to the honourable court. iu. of the ad. ioseph dawson , you stand convicted upon four indictments , by your own confession , for piracy and robbery . and you ed. foreseth , will. may , will. bishop , ia. lewis and io. sparks , having put your selves upon your tryals according to the customs and laws of your own countrey , have been found gailty upon three several indictments , for the same detestable crimes committed upon the ships and goods of indians , of danes , and your own fellow-subjects . the law for the heinousness of your crime hath appointed a severe punishment , by an ignominious death ; and iudgment which the law awards , is this , that you and every one of you be taken from hence to the place from whence you came , and from thence to the place of execution , and that there you , and every one of you be hanged by the necks , until you , and every one of you be dead : and the lord have mercy upon you . according to this sentence , edward foreseth and the rest were executed , on wednesday , november the th , at execution-dock , that being the usual place for the execution of pirates . finis . the grand pyrate, or, the life and death of capt. george cusack, the great sea-robber with an accompt of all his notorious robberies both at sea and land : together with his tryal, condemnation, and execution / taken by an impartial hand. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing g estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the grand pyrate, or, the life and death of capt. george cusack, the great sea-robber with an accompt of all his notorious robberies both at sea and land : together with his tryal, condemnation, and execution / taken by an impartial hand. impartial hand. p. printed for jonathan edwin ..., london : . the account of the trial has special t.p. reading: an exact narrative of the tryals of the pyrats, and all the proceedings at the late goal-delivery of the admiralty, held in the old-bayly ... the th and th of jan. / . printed in the yeare, . "licensed novemb. , , roger l'estrange" reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore 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all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng cusack, george, -- capt. pirates. trials (piracy) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the grand pyrate : or , the life and death of capt. george cvsack the great sea-robber . with an accompt of all his notorious robberies both at sea and land. together with his tryal , condemnation , and execvtion . taken by an impartial hand . licensed novemb. . . roger l'estrange . london , printed for ionathan edwin at the sign of the three roses in ludgate-street . mdclxxvi . the grand pirate , or the life and death of captain george cusack . the world hath been long entertained with accounts of highway-men and land-robbers , but piracies and sea-robbers being for the most part either under the guard & protection of some states , that avowedly drive this infamous traffick , as they of algiers and salley do , or on the pretence of a commission from some prince engaged in a war with his neighbours ; therefore it is hoped that the following account shall be received and read generally , since it contains some of the passages of the most signal sea-robber , that perhaps this age hath known , who encourag'd with success , did with a most daring boldness , drive that cursed trade for years , and not daunted with one misfortune , continued and improved in his villainous course of life , till at length this captain george cusack ( for that was his name ) was taken , and being found guilty of unparallell'd crimes , was put to death at the execution dock on monday the eighteenth of ianuary , . according to the sentence past upon him . george cusack son to one mr. cusack of granstowen in the county of east-meath in ireland , was bred a scholar and a roman catholick , and was disposed by his parents for a fryer , but the wildness of his youth not agreeing with a religious life , made him first rob his nearest kinsman mr. benedict arthur of sixty pounds and his watch within two miles of dublin in the year ; after which he went to serve as a private souldier in flanders , but the severity of that discipline not agreeing with his looser temper , he did betake himself to sea-service in several privateers , where he continued for some time in a private capacity ; but after frequent removals , his first rise was to the degree of a gunners mate aboard of captain north , in a voyage to guinney ; where being very mutinous , and usual punishments not being able to keep him in order , his captain put him aboard the gift frigate , captain reynolds commander , in whom he sayled to barbadoes ; and after his return entred himself a midship-man aboard sir edward spragge : by whom being employed as a press-master in the former dutch war , amongst many others he prest one that was in the hands of the bayliffs , taken by them upon execution , and carried him clear away ; for which and for being a grand mutineer , he was afterward seized , and committed a prisoner to the marshalsey for some moneths . but at last being set at liberty , and having resolutions to raise himself by any sinister wayes , and determining to surprize and run away with the first good ship he could get employment in , it so happened , that in the year . being at cadiz in spain , he was entertained as gunner aboard the hopewell of tangier , captain lambert bartholomew welters commander , a vessel of about tuns , and guns , bound from tangier to virginia , and richly laden , who sayling from cadiz the second of september , and the next day springing a leak , thereupon by the general opinion of officers aboard , it was thought best to put in at the grand canar●es to stop it , where meeting with contrary winds , they constrained them to make more southerly . upon the eighth of october following at one of the clock in the morning , being in degrees and about minutes northern latitude , and about english leagues westward from ●erre , the said george cusack , with one richard parslow , one of the mates or pilots , and several others of their confederates , having privately armed themselves , fell upon the watches , and by violence seized the said captain lambert , thomas power merchant and supercargo of the said vessel , daniel gilson chief mate , together with the boatswain , carpenter , butler , and several others , having first through the great cabbin door shot the cabbin-boy through the thigh , and the carpenter upon the deck through the buttock , whom they also wounded in the arm , together with the boatswain , all whom this cusack commanded unto the round-house , placing guards over them , where they apprehended every minute to be murdered and thrown over-board ; at last he hawled out the small boat of tht ship , and by violence forced into the boat captain lambert , with the chief mate , the wounded carpenter , the butler with three seamen more , whom he exposed to the mercy of the ocean , denying them the long-boat , though they begged it upon their knees , without giving any reason for so inhumane an action , or having any provocation thereunto . the said thomas power being commanded out of the round-house with the rest , observing the said cusack to be the principal conspirator , desired to speak a few words with him before he was put off , who replied , god damme , what you have to say , say quickly ; whereupon the said power desired him to pistol him there , rather than to expose him to the mercy of the sea , for he had rather dye a sudden death , than a certain lingering one ; but withall told him , he conceiv'd he had a better way for the saving of his life , for a day or two might be of use to him till he had taken an accompt of the ships cargo , & how she was stored with water and provision , which having done , he might pistol him , or throw him over-board at pleasure . upon which the said cusack forthwith commanded the said power into the great cabbin , under the command of two musquetiers , straitly charging them upon pain of death to shoot him if he spoke to any man. the boat being fired at by a small shot out of the gun-room by one edward barry , and forced away , cusack together with ●ar●ow , the same day broke open captain lambert's chests , and there divided betwixt them all the goods and money in equal proportion , together with all the things of value belonging to captain lambert in the great cabbin , declaring their resolution of running away with the ships and cargo , and of taking or sinking all ships or vessels they should meet with belonging to any nation , english only excepted : promising to all persons aboard that joyned with them , their proportion and shares of the ship and cargo ; together with all other ships they should afterwards take or surprize , according to the lawes of pleron : to which end he ordered to be drawn up in writing an obligation to himself as captain , and the said parslow as lieutenant , expressing the resolutions of the subscribers upon their oaths to live and die with them in this their present design , to which there subscribed one thomas carre alias richardson , formerly gunners mate , whom he now made master ; one nathanael estan alias hillon , whom he made masters mate , moses white made boatswain ; thirteen servants ( who all voluntarily entered themselves upon the said voyage for virginia ) together with most of the seamen , many of them not daring to refuse . the persons names not subscribing nor consenting being iohn samuel the former boatswain , sore wounded ; iacob marrelly the chirurgion , leonard cornelly the carpenters mate , iacob cornelly the chief boy , with three other cabbin boys , and benjamin wilbius servant to the said thomas power . all whom they forced along with them . the persons unwillingly or constrainedly subscribing the writings were , thomas wildsmith , serjeant andrew mattes , and one clark of tangier sea-men . after the seizure of the ship he possessed himself of all letters and writings relating to the voyage , as well belonging to captain lambert , as also those in the possession of thomas power , except three papers onely which power hath concealed and reserved , almost all which he threw over board , lest any of them should discover his piratical proceedings , and could not be perswaded to save a great large bible that constantly lay upon the great cabbin table , from the mercy of the waves , which whiles some of his own crew endeavoured to perswade him to , he replyed , you cowards , what do you think to go to heaven and do such actions as these ? no , i will make you officers in hell under me ; and with that threw the bible out at the great cabbin window , saying go thou thy way divinity , what have we to do with thee ▪ upon which he presently altered his course , and set say● for guinney , intending there to convert the cargo into gold ; in ten days time he run into fourteen degrees and a half of northern latitude , but not being able to find the cape de verde islands , and being ignorant whether he was to windward or leeward of any of them , and not having above a months fresh water , he determined to sayle full west , in hopes either of falling in with some of the islands , or at worst to have the advantage of a trade wind for barbadoes , where he arrived the fourth of november following ; during this passage , as also before , he often sollicited thomas power to close with him in his design , profering him not only his own goods , but the moyety of the cargo besides , which power refusing , wrought in cusack such a jealousie of him , heightned with the discontents of his confederates , that it was daily expected when power should be murdered , and thrown over-board , being judged the only person that was in a capacity of discovering their piratical proceedings . the boat with seven men forced to sea , being concluded without fail lost , this merry crew often drunk to them in hell , though indeed they had more reason to conclude it nearer to themselves , which they were far enough from having any apprehension of , witness their daily song , and their drunken bouts , which was hang sorrow , let 's cast away care , the world is bound to find us : thou and i , and all must die , and leave this world behind us . the bell shall ring , the clark shall sing , the good old wife shall wind us . the sexton shall lay our bodies in clay where the devil in hell shall find us . in this passage she espied a sayl to windward , to whom she gave chase some hours , supposing it to be a portuguize from brazile , whom they intended to make a prize of , but were out-sayled by her , before their arrival at barbadoes , where they determined to touch and sell for ready money , as much of the cargo as they could , as also to carry as many men as they could get . they forced power to draw up several articles of their own dictating , to prevent the discovery of the vessel , which they had likewise altered all they could , and now called her the valiant prince , pretending her to belong to dublin , from whence she was freighted to cadiz , laden with loose pipe-staves , &c. by cusack , barshow , and others ; and that there she invested the produce of her goods in the present cargo aboard , and was bound for iamaica , and so back for dublin ; and that she hath lost her boat at sea in foul weather with seven men in it ; when she sprung a leak , that she touch't there to take in fresh water , and to stop her leak only : which pretences being proclaimed at the main-mast , it was declared present death to every man that gave out otherwise ; with order to sayl forthwith . at carl●●●● bay the fourth of november , they saluted the fort with seven guns , who returned one : without touching , they keep their course for speights bay , where they hoped to treat with more privacy and security ; but before they arrived there , a sloop with the kings jack and ancient out , was making after them ; cusacks vessel lay by for her , and upon her coming up , invited her boat aboard , who examined cusack whence he was , and whither bound , who answered as formerly agreed on . the boat left one thomas fox aboard to bring him to an anchor in speights bay , who immediately acquainted cusack with the safe arrival of the boat , & the seven men in her that he pretended he had lost at sea , and that if he touch't there , my lord willoughby would presently seize him ; that captain lambert had acquainted my lord with all particulars ; and that there was a privateer setting out , that was ordered to pursue and retake him ; that the said fox knew his design , and resolved to live and die with him . upon which information cusack called for a pistol , and also parslow fired at the small boat of the sloop , but neither going off , the sloop steered away , which cusack repented he had not either sunk , or forcibly carried away with him . from thence he immediately resolved for martinico a french island , and about eleven a clock the same night he was overtaken by a small vessel manned out by my lord willoughby ; who being to windward , and within shot of cusack , he fired about eleven guns at her ; upon which the vessel immediately tacked and returned without firing a gun ; the next day being betwixt sancta lucia and martinico , and being becalmed towards the evening , he espied a katch plying to windward , which he made towards all he could , but night coming on , he haled out and manned his long-boat with twelve men , whom he doubly armed , and commanded them to board and take her whatsoever she was ; the long-boat haling her , received this account , that she belonged to flushing , and was bound to sirenam , and desired them to keep off ; upon which they durst not attempt her : but cusack by this time coming up ( the katch not altering her course ) hailes her himself , being within musquet shot , and commands her to strike , otherwise he would sink her ; but receiving no answer , he fired about ten guns at her , besides some small-shot , thinking himself sure of her ; but in half an hours time she got the windward and escaped ; but what damage is uncertain . the eighth of november being sunday , by break of day , with the king 's iack and ancient out he came to an anchor , betwixt the town of martinico and carbat , giving himself out for a man of war , bound from london to iamaica ; that he intended to touch at , but had missed barbadoes , and wanting water and wood touched there to supply himself , which all the men aboard were then to give out upon pain of death . with these pretences he sent his boat ashore to the fort , in which returned aboard with him one mr. blake an englishman , pretending himselfe an interpreter , with two english-men more , and some french , who acquainted him , that the governour was at carbat at church ; and that it was both customary for others , and would be necessary for him to kiss his hands ; assuring him of all fair accommodation there . upon their importunity , together with the invitation of the captain of the guard ( by whom he sent the said governour a large looking-glass as a present ) he was prevailed with to go ashore , and presently commanded with him thomas power : the church being near the sea-side , and their service then ended , the governour monsier la bier ( with many followers ) meets cusac , who discoursed with him in french : power it seems conceiving there was then before him a most fit opportunity , not only to discover the piratical proceedings of cusack , but to recover the vessel and cargo , and bring the pirates to condigne punishment , acquaints the governour with the sum and substance of what has been here related touching the ship in the presence of cusack , which was interpreted to him by the black in the presence and hearing of two or three english-men more and many french , desiring the governour that he would secure cusack , with the boats crew ( who all alledged their vessel a man of war , and power only a passenger , whom they were to deliver at iamaica , to which they were all ready to give their oaths ) power profering to make good the truth of his accusation with his life , and for the better satisfaction of the governor , then produced the orders and instructions of his principals , together with his letter of attorney , and captain lambert's general bill of lading , signed with his own hand , ( which papers , it seems , power had privately secured ) desiring they might be read ; but monsieur la bier would neither suffer them to be read , nor secure cusack , nor protect power , nor send for other testimonies from aboard , though he was earnestly entreated to do it ; only ordered power to draw up in writing what he had to charge cusack with , and he would give him a farther hearing : power not being believed , and being forced to shift for himself , cusack with what men he could get makes haste aboard ; and not daring to stay to weigh his anchor , cuts his cable the same night , and stands off to sea , and the next morning early sends his boat ashore doubly arm'd to leeward of the town , and waters and woods by force , or at least by private connivence . from thence he makes for mountserrat , where he and the rest of his confederates being under the sense of their own guilt , and knowing themselves fully discovered ; endeavoured to piece up a kind of agreement with the governour colonel stapleton , but not daring to trust themselves under his power , and being informed that my lord willoughby was then upon his way for england , and intended to visit and strengthen the leeward islands in his passage , he withdrew himself to a small island called anguilla , where the governour captain howel ( being informed of their villany , by the dispersed intelligence of power ) upon his coming ashore seized him and his boats crew , the particulars whereof you have here exposed to your perusal as it was taken out of cusacks own journal , under his own hand-writing , by which you may not only discover the nature of the man , but from thence experience how custom in sin begets in some men an opinion of the lawfulness of their actions , though never so criminal , villainous or injurious . december the th . . i went ashore , says he , with five men to look after six men that runn'd from the ship , and some five miles in the country after i drunk a little molby at captain hews , one roch comes in and told me that two dutchmen run away with the boat , and hearing this i arose to go away , and stept some or paces from the house , they told me if i went any further i was a dead man , then i did suppose i was betrayed ; then came one suddenly and profered to lay hold on me , thinking that i had nothing but my cane , with that i pull'd out a pocket pistol and bid him stand off ; and so came through two of their ambushes , meeting in my way one of their lieutenants , called lieutenant derrick , whom i trust in amongst the rest of his consorts in the wood , and so going along until my wearied leggs missing the path-way were forced into the woods , where they were sufficiently torn , till at last being very dry with such unsatiable thirst , i found a puddle of rain water which contained to the value of a pint betwixt two rocks , sharing to every one his portion , we marched further , and being troubled with the former thirst , we spied a house in the wilderness but the place a little plainer , where i espied a woman big with child , fearing to fright the woman we asked for some water which she tendred to us at our request , and withall taking notice of our wearied limbs to be scarce able to sustain our bodies treated me with a civil entertainment in her house , which was a cup of cold water , being at that present more welcome to me than gold , there i stayed for two hours to revive my thirsty soul which breathed for air , after this little space of time comes one iohn merideth , and one bedhell , both merchants who courted me to yield upon terms , and deliver my sword and pistols to them , and the governour should do the same , to which i did give consent being unable to live in those solitary and rather venemous woods , where mirwings & musculers sting'd us as bad as wasps , then honour was forced to yield to unworthiness , for as assoon as the governor ( or rather a swine driver ) had spied my rapier in one of those gentlemens hands he forced him to deliver my rapier and pistols , and this finished , till the next day following he summonned me again , and i delivered my self up upon conditions that i should have all my cloathes and moneys belonging unto me in the ship. but what could i expect of a rebellious and unworthy bandida which never did familiar himself with men , but with wild goats in those woods , he left me with one sute of cloaths and one shirt to my back , continuing among those satyrs from the eighth day to the fifteenth , to requite my former kindness sent up with me two more , the boatswain and another , all three in irons , down a shallops hold , denying me only to breath in the hatch-way , as if that i had perpetrated the greatest murder in the world , which was a great vexation to my spirit , which with great courage being never inferiour to any , overcame this villainous action with patience . it would be too tedious to insert here the havock that was made of the ship and cargo and stores , with the hard usage of captain lambert , and the supercargo power , the design of this paper being only to pursue the life and action of cusack who from hence was sent up in irons to barbado's where being committed to the marshals custody , and afterwards to the common-goal , he with several other felons broke prison , and seizing upon an empty . boat ventured to sea , and touching at an indian island or two to refresh themselves got down to tartodos a french island , where being arrived he met with an opportunity of surprizing another ship to a greater value , the particulars whereof you have as followeth . a frigat of tuns and guns mounted , called the saint ioseph , belonging to david godfry of lisbon merchant , and others his partners then residing at rochel , being laden with campeach wood , varenus tobacco , coco , and other merchandize to the value of pieces of eight , whereof were in ready money , and being ready to sail in the month of march . whereof one peter asdel was captain , and stephen goliard merchant or supercargo ; who considering the hazard the ship and cargo might run by the spanish men of war in those parts , who make prize of all ships but their own betwixt the tropick , thought it convenient for the better security of the ship to strengthen her with as many men as they could conveniently get , and amongst many others unfortunately received aboard george cusack and his fellows , who having now been used and pretty well experimented in the trade of surprizing , and having before-hand contrived and agreed upon their designed treachery , the first of april following being the same night of their departure , they fell upon the master and merchant , and the rest of the french aboard being in number , whom having mastered and secured in the hold , they immediately set sayl for carthagine , and there exposed them to the mercy of the spaniards their sore enemies without any relief or maintenance in a most miserable condition , where they remained months in close imprisonment ; he and his followers in the mean time making for new-england , conclude they might now pass with more security and out of fear of discovery , the proprietors being in no condition to pursue them or disperse intelligence concerning the fact ; during this passage we may reasonably conclude their carriage and behaviour was not much different from that of their former , if we consider only the new name they gave the second piratical purchase , calling her now by the name of the flying devil , as indeed she might be so termed , as having none but devils aboard her ; however though the wind that fills pyrats sayls does in no case justifie their actions , they shortly after arrived safely upon the coasts of new-england , where in a short time they disposed of the cargo of their vessel , and afterwards burnt the hull , as will appear more particularly by the ensuing letter from thence . boston , n. e. decemb. . . mr. george nevil , sir , yours by mr. tirry i received , and should have been glad without the recommendation of our kinsman upon that common account of courtesie and assistance , that the course of commerce and obligations of humanity is due to strangers to have opportunities and means to have answered your request ; but as i was at rochel when the pyrat cusack came into these parts , so i cannot particularly as quaint you with his negotiations here ; but since my return home by proenrations from mr. bossereao an agent from rochel , i have been put upon enquiry after the concernment you recommended to me , and find that the iurisdiction under which i live , viz. the colonie , never countenanced the importation of any of his commodities , but upon penalty of forfeiture interdicted the same , however some of the inhabitants of this place , and persons of considerable interest and estates concerned themselves with the person that purchased the cargo , and landed and disposed of the same in the colonie of new-plimouth , and also made purchase of the ship , and in exchange furnished the pyrate with a small vessel or two to transport himself & comrades , and upon consider ation that the frigat was not worth setting to sea or not worthy to drink any other water , the artillery , ammunition , sayles and furniture● being secured they burnt the bottom . i understand that the common people of the colony manifested agreat dissatisfaction at the concernment of those that interested themselves , also that the authority resented the same , and took security from one dominick bodkin an irish man , the principal correspondent with cusack , to respond the claims of such as were concerned in the said ship , and should in a year and a day prosecute the same ; but the said term being elapsed and no demand made , his bonds became void , and he by the improving of what his profit was there , is become very considerable , and this year hath been here with a very rich cargo ; and had the order you intimate met him , it might possibly have prevailed for some competent satisfaction ; the magistrates and people hearing a general displacency against those that were concerned , but him in particular , as being the only and immediate agent ; he is gone hence for virginia and thence is intended for flanders , with at least a hogs heads of tobacco in two ships upon his imployment ; and in regard his success here hath been so good , 't is probable he may come here again . hereby your self or friends may know how to govern their expectations , and wherein i may serve you or them i shall be ready to assure you i am your faithful friend and servant , richard wharton . cusack having thus altered the property both of vessel and goods , and being no doubt plentifully stored both with monies and rich goods , his insatiate desire still thirsting after more , he could not forbear enlarging his own share , though with the loss of several of his own crew , who being big with expectations of their proportions of the whole product , and being resolved to be more than ordinarily merry ashore , at parting he gives them a small sum of money to that purpose , and whilst they were in the height of their merriment , he with the rest of his countrymen and principal confederates make all the sail they could , leaving their fellows as empty of their hopes , as full of their liquor , a pleasant but not sufficient reward for such villains . hence he steers his course for ireland , and though report gives an accompt of some small depredations he was guilty of in his way thither , yet i am unwilling to trouble the reader with matters of uncertainty , his whole life being a series of continued villainies , of which there are too many and too true instances . being therefore arrived in ireland , and having disposed of the product of his ill gotten purchases as he thought most convenient , and that the might follow his old trade with less suspicion , he provides himself with an old greenland shallop , and with others of his crew putting to sea , in saint george his channel , they meet with a malligo ship of twenty four guns , fraighted by own mr. fleming , and bound for glasco in scotland , whom they made towards all they could , and coming up with her pretended themselves to be shipwrackt men , and were ready to starve for want of sustenance , the captain out of pitty received them aboard as distressed men , and having plentifully relieved them with all things necessary , little expecting so sad a return of his kindness , they according to their wonted custom seized the vessel , and carried her for galloway in ireland , where they disposed of her and her cargo , and sent the captain and his men in the greenland shallop to the mercy of the seas , who by gods providence got the english shores . but now his many and frequent piracies having rendred him notorious in those seas , he thought it most safe to retire himself for some time within land , and to that end having provided himself with horses , he associates himself with a company of tories , and after many robberies , he could not forbear falling upon the house of one william chanvelly a quaker , for which some months after he was apprehended and committed to prison in dublin , where putting in bail for his appearance the term following , in the interim he made for england , acquainting his bail that he was gone thither to endeavor to procure his pardon , which if he obtained he would then return in certain weeks , otherwise he must shift for himself . after his private abode in england for some time , he went over for holland , where prying to and again for some advantage , and pretending to have deserted the french service , and that he intended for england , having several associates along with him he became acquainted with one simon harcourt , who was taken on by one mr. calhoon owner of the ship robert , for master of that ship upon a voyage to newcastle , with whom confederating for the surprize of the vessel , they accordingly effected their design as particularly appears by the depositions following . edward creswel of london-derry maketh oath , that about the first day of july last past , being aboard the ship , called the robert , one mr. calhoone being owner , the said ship being bound from amsterdam to newcastle , one symon harcourt being master , did take in one smith , alias dixon , alias cusack , with several others of the said cusacks companions , pretending them selves to be passengers , and the said ship being at sea , this deponent did often observe the said harcourt and cusack and the rest of the pretended passengers whispering together , which gave this deponent cause to believe , that the said harcourt and cusack , and the rest of his pretended passengers , did intend to surprize and seize the said ship ; soon after one of cusacks companions ( this deponent being asleep ) came to him with a sword drawn in his hand , and did awake this deponent striking him over the ▪ face with the flat of his sword , and calling him dog , swearing several oaths , using the deponent in a very ill manner , and said the ship was their own , and that they seized her by vertue of a french commission , and afterward came up with three ships , two swedes , and one dane , and robb'd them , leaving them not so much as victuals to maintain them for twenty four hours , having taken their sails , cables and anchors , leaving them to the mercy of the sea , and one main-sail ; and having begged on their knees for their fore-sail , and anchor , in a passion they let their water go out of their casks which was more dear to them than their victuals , he bidding them go , the devil would furnish them with sails and anchors ; this deponent having humbly begged for a sute of his own cloaths , after all being taken from him but his shirt and his drawers , cusack with his sword drawn caused him to leap over board , and if the danes boat had not been near , ( whom they had robb'd ) this deponent had been drowned ; and this deponent further maketh oath that they took out of the said swede ship , a parcel of dollars to the value of . as this deponent on oath believes , with much other merchant goods ; it was made out upon oath by the master of the said swede ship , before the council of elsenore , that he did take out of the said ship all the victuals and water , excepting half a barrel of water and a little broken bisquet , and left them but with one sail and one anchor , and that the said ship was left to the mercy of the sea , having fourteen days sailing to elsenore . jurat . the day of september , . coram me , ma. bramston . being possessed of the vessel , soon after that he seized another ship called the saint anne of tuns , bound from norway to london with timber and deals , chiefly belonging to captain shorter of the bank-side ; and at the same time seized an old fly-boat belonging to a dane , which after having plundred and taken away her fore-sayl , with one anchor and a cable , and utterly disabled her , he put the men into her that belonged to the saint anne , and turned her adrift , whom it pleased god , after much hazzard and hardship , to send safe ashore near yarmouth ; but he immediatly sayled with the saint anne to aberdeen in scotland , where ( having disposed of parcel of her loading by the way ) he sold her and her remaining loading for betwixt and hundred pound , though she was esteemed worth about three thousand pound : after which he came to the thames , and had the confidence to come to an anchor betwixt the forts at gravesend , where he continued two nights and a day ; but not finding himself secure there , he retired to lee-road , where he lay nine days before any discovery was made of him ; but notice being given to one lieutenant colonel kennedy , ( who was the man that took him ) by the owner of the ship robert of her surprize , and lieutenant colonel kennedy receiving intimation of her being at lee , obtained a warrant for her apprehension from the court of admiralty , which was accordingly executed , as appears by the following deposition . james dalton of saint giles in the fields , in the county of middlesex , maketh oath , that he this deponent on the twenty fourth of august last came to lee with lieutenant colonel kennedy , about ten of the clock in the evening , and the said colonel kennedy then having a warrant from the iudge of the admiralty to seize a ship called the robert , this deponent then knowing her to be a robber or pirate , for he sailed in her when she belonged to one mr. calhoone the right owner , and was on board her when she was surprised by captain cusack , alias smith , alias dixon , who then came as a passenger in her from amsterdam about june last ; about four leagues from the fly , the said smith , alias dixon , alias cusack , seized the said ship ; and a few hours after came up with three ships , viz. two swedes and one dane , and robbed them of their sayls , anchors , merohandize , and provisio●● , leaving nothing but one sayl and anchor to each ▪ and left them to the mercy of god and the sea , and 〈◊〉 into alford creek , and sold the plunder there , this deponent being then one of the ships company ; all which this deponent in formed the iustice of in the presence of the said lieutenant colonel kennedy whe● they came to him with the warrant of admiralty to seize the said ship : and further , that he was a notorious and desperate person , he cared a●t what he did . and this deponent too then desired the said iustice to be very careful of the prisoners which he had on 〈◊〉 out of the ship , for they would use all violent and desperate means to carry off the said ship , their lives being at stake : and the said iustice replyed , they were all honest men , the ship should not be taken away , he would secure it , which he said in presence of colonel kennedy and one mr. dermot and others ; notwithstanding that the said iustice did say , that he had a suspicion of them the next morning after the ship came . jurat . . die septemb. . coram me , ma. bramston . the said ship-robber being thus secured at lee , and his sayls brought ashore , and secured there also , cusack at the same time being absent upon new designs for more purchase , but hearing how things went , makes all the haste he could to lee , where he and his comrades partly by force , and partly by connivence , repossest themselves of ship and sayls , and turned the man ashore that was in possession of her ; colonel kennedy then being with the judge of the admiralty for a special warrant : which being obtained , he returned with one of his majesties yachts , and mr. ioynes the marshal of the admiralty , who pursued the said vessel , and found her at anchor near the essex-shore , waiting for more of their comrades to come aboard . when cusack saw the kings yacht and colours , he would have engaged , but his men would not : he being on the deck with a pistol in each hand , swore god dam him that he should be hanged , which was to the great grief and loss of many a merchant , that his oath was not sooner kept , and to the good of others so soon , leaving his ship plentifully victualled with fresh meat ; for he and his crew the two nights they were gone had stolen a number of sheep from essex , according to their wonted custom , whereof some killed , some alive were found aboard : he was constrained with the rest to submit himself a prisoner , and from thence was brought and committed to the marshalsey in southwark . it now remains , that i give you an account of the tryal and sentence of this famous pirate , which cannot be better taken than from the accompt then , which followeth . an exact narrative of the tryals of the pyrats : and all the proceedings at the late goal-delivery of the admiralty , held in the old-bayly , on thursday and saturday , the th and th of ian. / . where eight persons were condemned to dye . viz. capt. george cusack , alias dixon , alias smith . gerrard coundon . william collingwood . gerrard stack . henry lovewell . symon harcourt . michael fitz-gerald . for taking , and robbing two ships , viz. the robert , near the fly : and the anne on the dogger-sands ; with several others . and many other circumstances there very remarkable : the like court having not been held for many years before . printed in the year , . an exact narrative of the tryals of the pyrats ; and all the proceedings at the late goal-delivery of the admiralty ; held in the old-baily , on thursday , and saturday , the th and th of ianuary , / . captain george cusack , sometimes called dixon , and at other times smith , with several of his confederates , having been detained above six months prisoners in the marshalses , in order to their tryals : which at last was appointed to be on thursday the th of ianuary instant , at iustice-hall in the old-baily , as a place most convenient for that purpose . but this captain , being it seems conscious to his own merits , and apprehensive of the danger ; on munday before in the night-time , broke prison ; getting first down a chimney into a lower chamber , and then by a rope into a garden , and so cleverly made his escape : and could not be heard of till this very thursday , just as the court was going to sit . at which time , diligent enquiry having been made all wayes , and rewards promised for his discovery ; news came , that there was notice of him at a certain house towards the upper end of holbourn . where immediately after he was taken in bed with a woman ; who was brought along with him , forthwith to the old-baily , and was by some reported to be his sister . the other prisoners were brought over the water with a strong guard. the court was held by a special commission of oyer and terminer , and goal-delivery , directed to honourable persons of the court of admiralty ; and several of his majesties justices of the courts at westminster , &c. a silver oar was born before the iudge of the admiralty ; and three anchors put upon a cloth above the kings-arms , over the bench. the judge after the commission read , gave his charge to the grand-inquest , in an excellent oration , acquainting them with his majestie 's right of soveraignty over the british seas ; even to the very shoars of his neighbours . that they have alwayes been accounted , the royal chambers of our english monarchs : whose jurisdiction extends to punish all outrages , violences and offences whatsoever , committed thereupon , by any persons , ( whether his subjects , or strangers , ) upon ships , persons , or goods , of our own nation ; or others in amity with us . then he shewed the heynousness of the crime of pyracy ; that it was against the law of nations ; destructive to commerce : and therefore particularly branded by our english laws , by being excepted out of the benefit of clergy ; allowed in other cases . dividing the offences he had to give them in charge , as the subjects of their enquiry at this time , into things against the statute law ; and things contrary to the laws , customs and usages of the admiralty . on each of which , he particularly enlarged . and amongst other things , declared the ceremony of the flagg , to be our king 's indubitable right ; whereby all ships whatsoever , in those seas , are bound to strike to those of his majestie 's , where ever they meet them : and that all that refuse so to do , are severely punishable by the laws of the admiralty , &c. immediately after this , six prisoners were brought to the barr , viz. george cusack , william coundon , gerrard stack , symon harcourt , henry lovewell , and william collingwood ; who were indicted , for that on the third day of iuly last past , they pyratically , and feloniously did set upon a ship called the robert , near a place called the fly , on the coasts of holland . and by another indictment , that they had feloniously stoll'n several goods out of another ship , whose name to the iurours was unknown . to both these indictments they pleaded not guilty . but upon the evidence , the case appeared to be in effect thus : cusack , and others of his company , having a design to rob this ship , and understanding the master wanted sea-men , set two of their confederates to offer their service to him . where they were entertained ; and at last betrayed the ship into his hands : which he carried it away . the captain at the first took some exceptions to the jury ; not for any prejudice against any particular men of them ; but because they were citizens ; who did not ( he said ) understand maritime-affairs . and that it was necessary , sea-captains , and masters of ships should have been impannell'd . upon which occasion he cryed out , we will be tryed ( my lord ) by men of our own trade ! which being understood in another sence , made not only the audience , but his fellow prisoners to laugh heartily . but being over-ruled in this , he next insisted on a commission from the french king. which was read ; but was found to be directed to another person : but he alledged , it was his kinsman , who had the grant of a commission at the same time ; and that by mistake the commissions were changed : and so his kinsman's commission sent to him from callice to london ; where he paid a sum of money for it to the french resident : and that he not being able to read french , could not perceive the errour , but acted by it ; not doubting but that it had been his own . and that this ship the robert , was never made any free ship of england ; but the owners were dutch , and lived in rotterdam : and that he hoped the court would allow of his commission . the court told him , the commission was nothing worth . for if it had been directed to him , ( as it was not ) there was yet no power given him thereby to seize ships of england , as this proved to be . besides , they ask't , how he durst take a commission from any forreign prince , directly contrary to the late treaty , and his majestie 's proclamation ? to which he replyed , that his commission bore date before that proclamation . and besides insisted , that whereas by the indictment he was charged with an offence committed super altum mare , upon the sea ; this ship was taken in one of the dutch ports , and so not appertaining to the iurisdiction of the english admiralty . but this the witnesses refuted , proving she was taken three leagues out at sea , from the fly. this mr. cusack appeared to be a person of a clear courage , and good understanding : he pleaded very well for his life ; but the matter was too foul to be washt off with good words . the court having withdrawn about an hour , returned to give judgment . which was performed in most grave and solid speeches ; setting forth the nature , and aggravations of their crimes ; and advising them to prepare for death , &c. captain cusack presented a petition ; wherein he begg'd his life very pathetically : recounting his former services ; and offering himself to the service of his majestie 's gallies at tangier , till by his future good demeanour and services , he might wash off the stains of his late ill actions , &c. most of the others presented petitions also , desiring mercy and favour of the court : who proceeded to give judgment . which against captain cusack , and the seven others , before mentioned , to be convicted for pyracy and robbery , was , that they should be hang'd till they were dead . finis . the tryal of thomas, earl of strafford, lord lieutenant of ireland, upon an impeachment of high treason by the commons then assembled in parliament, in the name of themselves and of all the commons in england, begun in westminster-hall the th of march , and continued before judgment was given until the th of may, shewing the form of parliamentary proceedings in an impeachment of treason : to which is added a short account of some other matters of fact transacted in both houses of parliament, precedent, concomitant, and subsequent to the said tryal : with some special arguments in law relating to a bill of attainder / faithfully collected, and impartially published, without observation or reflection, by john rushworth of lincolnes-inn, esq. strafford, thomas wentworth, earl of, - , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing r estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : or : ) the tryal of thomas, earl of strafford, lord lieutenant of ireland, upon an impeachment of high treason by the commons then assembled in parliament, in the name of themselves and of all the commons in england, begun in westminster-hall the th of march , and continued before judgment was given until the th of may, shewing the form of parliamentary proceedings in an impeachment of treason : to which is added a short account of some other matters of fact transacted in both houses of parliament, precedent, concomitant, and subsequent to the said tryal : with some special arguments in law relating to a bill of attainder / faithfully collected, and impartially published, without observation or reflection, by john rushworth of lincolnes-inn, esq. strafford, thomas wentworth, earl of, - , defendant. rushworth, john, ?- . england and wales. parliament. house of commons. [ ], , - , - p. : port. printed for john wright ... and richard chiswell ..., london : . advertisement on p. [ ]. contains errors in pagination. "the table" [i.e. index]: p. [i.e. ]- . this work appears at reel : as wing r , and at reel : as wing t (number cancelled in wing nd ed.). reproduction of originals in university of michigan libraries and huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng strafford, thomas wentworth, -- earl of, - . trials (impeachment) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - ben griffin sampled and proofread - ben griffin text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion s r thomas wentworth kt. earle of strafforde , viscount wentworth , baron wentworth of wentworth , woodhowse , newmarch , oversley & raby , ld. lievtenant generall , and generall governor of the kingdome of ireland : and ld. president of y e councill established in y e north parts of england , l d lievtenant of y e county & city of york , & one of his ma ty most hon ble privy councill , and knight of y e most noble order of the garter . the tryal of thomas earl of strafford , lord lieutenant of ireland , upon an impeachment of high treason by the commons then assembled in parliament , in the name of themselves and of all the commons in england : begun in westminster-hall the th of march . and continued before judgment was given until the th of may . shewing the form of parliamentary proceedings in an impeachment of treason . to which is added a short account of some other matters of fact transacted in both houses of parliament , precedent , concomitant and subsequent to the said tryal : with some special arguments in law relating to a bill of attainder . faithfully collected , and impartially published , without observation or reflection , by iohn rushworth of lincolnes-inn , esq london , printed for john wright at the crown on ludgate-hill , and richard chiswell at the rose and crown in st. pauls church-yard , . to the right honourable george earl of halifax ; one of his majesties most honourable privy council . my lord , no man ( i believe ) understands better than your lordship , the interest and concern that posterity hath , in a true account of all matters of moment , that were transacted by their ancestors ; and i know none in whose devotion , to the service of the king and kingdom , i could so confide , as in your lordships , to patronize this plain and full relation of the proceedings in parliament , in the case of the greatest minister of state , in his time . i some times doubted that the dedication of these papers to your lordship , might be improper , because of your lordships descent from the sister of that great personage , whose unhappy fate is here related . but having well considered , that honor , truth , and justice , have the supreme empire in your truly noble soul ; and that a full and clear narrative of all the matters of fact , that occurred in this great affairs , with the intentions and constructions of them , as declared from the mouth of your noble ancestor himself , is the fairest and justest way to represent him truly to future ages ; i conceived it not unfit for your lordship to favour this true account of him , which may protect his name from the injuries , both of ignorance and malice . i ought not , neither can i flatter your lordship ; you are too well known to need any thing that can be said by me of your worth and true nobleness ; and the character of this your ancestor is best to be collected from the following papers . his letters published by me in the second part of my historical collections , and his behaviour in this solemn tryal here published , discovers the greatness of his parts , the quickness of his apprehension , the excellence of his wit and eloquence , the contempt he had of death , and the serene composure of his mind in that part of his life , which falls within this history , i should not have dared to present this work to your lordship , so nearly related to this eminent minister of state , if i had not been a witnesse to all the steps of the proceedings in this great ▪ action , and if i had not taken in characters , as well and truly , all that was said for him , as what his accusers said against him ; and therefore i can with great assurance aver it to be a candid representation of matter of fact , which is all i pretend to publish to the world : andas far as the exactest care could carry me , i have done it so punctually true , that i am hopeful there is none can have any just exception to any part of it . my lord , there is none alive can judge of a work of this nature better than your self , who as you are descended from a race of statesmen , being nephew and grandson to the two chief ministers of the last age , this great earl , and the wise and fortunate lord keeper coventry , so are you lookt on by all , as a person born for the service of the king , and the publique good of your countrey : and as i have always had a constant experience of your goodness and indulgence to my self , so i humbly hope your lordship will favourably construe my intentions in this dedication , and accept of it as a tribute of duty and acknowledgement humbly offered by may it please your lordship , your lordships most humble , most faithful , and most obliged servant jo. rushworth . march . . the preface . i cannot think that there wants an apology for publishing the ensuing papers , although the press seems over-charged . the trial of thomas earl of strafford , was , and is , some way or other , the concern of every man of england ; and the commissioners of scotland and ireland , thought those kingdoms also sufferers by his deportment , and joyned in the prosecution against him . all the commons of england by their deputies in parliament were his accusers , and the impeachment against him was in their names . the matter of his charge had reference to every english man , and all their posterities ; he was accused of designing to destroy the security of every of their estates , liberties and lifes , and to reduce them all to be subject to meer will and pleasure . it may therefore be said in the maxim of our government , not much varying the sense , quod omnes tangit , ab omnibus tractari debet . every man ought doubtless to know his own case , to understand whether that great man was justly accused of such a hainous crime ; and whether the kingdom escaped such a fatal blow , as was then alledged by his exemplary fall , under the iudgement of the king and parliament ; for this purpose i expose to the common view , the whole proceedings of his trial , being the most solemn , deliberate , and every way , the greatest tryal , whereof we have any account in our english story . the preparations for his tryal were made with an unusual solemnity , and were the results of the prudence of many selected lords and commons , as a committee of both houses . the usual places for administring iustice , and tryals of offenders , were thought too mean upon so great an occasion , and therefore scaffolds were erected in westminster-hall , fit to receive so great an assembly , as were to attend his trial. his majesty had a closet provided for him , the queen and prince near the place , where the house of peers sate , and was every day at the tryal of the said earl , and might hear what was said , and see what witnesses were produced , and take a full view of the greatness of the assembly , and yet remain privately in his closet unseen . seats were prepared for the lord high steward , and all the house of lords , who sate as his iudges ; woolsacks were placed for all the iustices or iudges to be their assistants : there were also seats provided for all the commons in parliament , though they came not with their speaker and his mace , as a house of parliament , but as a committee of the whole house ; seats were likewise prepared for the commissioners of the kingdom of scotland and ireland , which made it an assembly of three-kingdoms . at the lower end of the scaffolds , a place was provided for thirteen members of the house of commons , who were appointed for the earls prosecutors , to manage the evidence against him ; near to them stood the prisoner with a table before him , and a desk to write upon , and a chair was set for him to rest himself when he found it needful . the author of the ensuing papers was purposely placed near the earl , to take in characters whatsoever should be said , either against or for him , and to the best of his skill , he did impartially put in writing what was said in the case pro and con ; he hath not wittingly or willingly omitted the least particle said in the prisoners defence , either by himself or any body in his behalfe ; he hath not varied the form or manner of his expressions , being full of eloquence , and pleasing rhetorick , and excellently adapted to move compassion , both in his iudges , and the numerous assembly of auditors . the greatness of this minister of state 's tryal every way answered the high station and employments , unto which he had been advanced ; and the lofty designs he had managed . and the books of his life , from the time of his admission in the cabinet of his princes council , were exposed to the worlds view and the most profound learning of the laws of our countrey , the sharpest wit ; and the deepest wisdom of our kingdom were employed to examine and measure what he had done . not only by those rules of iustice , whereby all our ordinary courts of iustice are wisely bound by our ancestors , to proceed in the trial of criminals , but by those fundamental rules , and maxims of our english government , which that parliament asserted to be the safeguard , both of the king and people , and to be so reserved in the custody of the supream legislative power , that no criminals , by the violation of those first principles , which they said gave the being to our government , can be judged otherwise than in parliament , the ordinary iudges being obliged by that famous statute of the th of edw. . concerning treasons , to respit iudgment in all such cases , until the matter be declared in parliament , and iudgment there given ; whether the offence whereof any shall be accused , be treason , or other felony this tryal being upon an impeachment for treasons , not specially named and declared in the statute of the th edw. . occasioned more industrious and exquisite searches to be made into the most antient records of the kingdom , than had been for some hundreds of years , and also caused the most learned of the long robe to tumble over their law-books , and to apply their minds to look into the bowels of our antient laws , and the reason of them , from whence they had their being , and doubtless the counsel on either side brought out of their most secret treasuries , the quintescence of all their learning and studies ; besides the weight of the cause , every mans reputation pushed him to shew his utmost skill before so great and so grave an assembly of such critical and excellent iudges and auditors . the reader may find in these papers all the sweetness of learning , wisdom , and policy , which was the issue of the long labours and travels of many industrious bees , in the whole spring of their youth and vigor . the long continuance of this trial , is another evidence of its greatness ; it begun the of march . and continued with the interposition of divers intervals , for deliberation , and providing evidence , until the th of april . and an act for iudgment in a bill of attainder , passed against the earl in the house of commons the of the same month , and in the house of peers on the th of may following . i ought not to anticipate the reader with any thing that happened during this solemn tryal , nor to point at matter of law or fact ; every reader ought to suppose himself present at the tryal , and to make his own comments upon the law and fact , as it appeared ; every professor or student of the law may transcribe into his common place book , what he shall judge of most use , and every states-man may do the like in his studies ; and every man great and small , may , if he please , make excellent moral reflections upon the rise , greatness , and fall of this seeming fortunate , and yet at last unfortunate gentleman . this great mans principal crime , objected against him by the parliament , was his attempts to subvert that excellent law called the petition of right , which he himself ( especially in a speech made by him in parliament on , the of march , in the year ● had promoted and pressed with the most ardent zeal , as the best inheritance he could leave his posterity , and all the laws confirmed and renewed in that petition of right , were said to be the most invenomed arrows that gave him his mortal wound ; but how justly these were urged against him , is not my part to determine . i wish my labours in collecting truly the matter of fact , may be an occasion to many , to make true and righteous iudgment in this particular case so much controverted , and that from these matters of law and fact , such right measure may be taken , that all our future ministers of state may escape the conjoyned complaints of the three kingdoms against them : and that the government may be so administred , as shall best conduce to the happiness of the king and kingdom . advertisement , there is lately published historical collections : the second part. containing the principal matters which happened from the dissolution of the parliament , on the th of march , car. i. ● . until the summoning of another parliament , which met at westminster , april . . with an account of the proceedings of that parliamet , and the transactions and affairs from that time , until the meeting of another parliament , nov. , following , with some remarkable passages therein , during the firstsix months ▪ impartially related and disposed in annals . setting forth only matter of fact in order of time , without observation or reflection . by iohn rushworth of lincolns-inn , esq an introductive account of several passages previous to the grand tryal of thomas earl of strafford , who was impeached by the house of commons on the th of november , . as also of passages and proceedings in parliament from that time unto the . of march the same year , when his trial first began in westminster-hall . likewise an account of proceedings and remarkable passages in both houses of parliament , and some material matters elsewhere concomitant to the said trial , during the time it lasted , which was until the th of april , . friday , november th , . the house of commons having in the first place , according to ancient custom , setled all their grand committees , for religion , grievances , courts of justice , trade , and priviledges ; it was moved , that in regard the complaints of the kings subjects in ireland were many , who had undergone great oppressions in that kingdom by male-government there , and come to this parliament for relief , might be referred to a committee of the whole house for that purpose only to be appointed . this motion being made by mr. pym , and seconded by sir iohn clotworthy , avowing many particulars of the complaints mentioned to be true , it made a discovery to such as were well-wishers to thomas lord wentworth earl of strafford and lord lieutenant of ireland , that this motion was intended by a side-wind , to accumulate complaints against him the said lord lieutenant , in order to an accusation ; so when the question was put , after long debate , viz. whether the irish affairs should be referred to a committee of the whole house ? the house was divided , sir iohn clotworthy and sir henry mildmay being of opinion for the yeas , were appointed tellers of the number of the noes ; and sir edward bainton and sir richard luson being of opinion , not to refer this business of ireland to a grand committee , conceiving it without president , were appointed tellers of the number of the yeas , and when they had told all , they came up to the table , and made this report to mr. speaker , that there were with the yeas , and with the noes , whereupon it was resolved upon the question , that the irish affairs should be referred to a grand committee of the whole house , to meet to morrow in the afternoon at two of the clock in the house , and afterwards every thursday at the same hour and place : and this committee is ordered to have the like power as the other grand committees of the whole house have . this vote being carried for a grand committee as to irish affairs , a cabal of friends to the earl of strafford sent down post unto him into york-shire to acquaint him , that they apprehended a design against him in the making of this committee , and left it to his own election , whether he would stay still on the head of his army , or come up to the parliament . but if he did incline to come up , that he would , at his first appearance , impeach some members of both houses ( if he had evidence for the same ) of being privy to the bringing the scotch army into this kingdom , and told him , it was his wisdom to begin first , and not to be first impeached , as the earl of bristol was by the great duke of buckingham . the said earl , upon the receipt of this advertisement , suddenly resolved to come up and abide the test of parliament . but his friends , then with him in the north , told him , that his frank appearance would make polit●ans doubt , whether he did thereby assume his judgment and wonted prudence , to go thus from his army to the parliament , where his wisdom could not but know , that the scots and scotizing-english had resolved his destruction , and therefore ( said they ) unto him , it were better to keep under the safe-guard of the english army , at his command , ( from which he had acquired some affection ) or retire to the army in ireland , then being also at his devotion , or take sanctuary in some forreign parts , till fair weather might invite him home , neither ( said they ) would discretion vote it a betraying of his innocency to decline a trial , whereby the means of factions raised in england and scotland by his malicious prosecutors , and backed with power , his innocency could not protect him . they further told him , that if sentence should pass against him for non-appearance , yet he had kept his freedom till better times , when he might have occasion to do his master better service abroad , than in council at white-hall . but the said earl conceiving he had got good evidence in the north , that the scots came in by invitation and confederacy , between the heads of the covenanters and some of the english members of both houses , and having digested such his intelligence almost into the form of an impeachment , he posted up with the same , intending to present it to the house of peers , as soon as he arrived there . but on wednesday , nov. th the house of commons being acquainted by a member , that there was a business of great weight to be imparted , desired the house that the lobby without might be first cleared , and the key of the house brought up to the table , which was done accordingly ; and as the house had entred into debate about the earl of strafford , there came a message from the lords by the lord chief justice bramstom , and judge foster , that the king had commanded the lords commissioners , who were appointed to treat with the scots commissioners at rippon , to give an account to both houses of parliament of that which passed there and at york , and thereupon the lords desire there may be a meeting , by a committee of both houses this afternoon in the painted-chamber at three of the clock , if the occasions of this house will give leave . at this time many members of the house conceived this message was now sent , to get intelligence , what private debate was in hand ; the house of commons returned this answer by the same messengers , that at this time they were in agitation of very weighty and important affairs , and therefore they do doubt they shall not be ready , to give them a meeting this afternoon , as the lords desire , but as soon as they may , they will send an answer by messengers of their own . after the messengers were withdrawn , the house proceeded in the debate they were in before , and appointed a committee to prepare matter upon the said debate , for a conference with the lords , concerning the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 , and named seven members , viz. mr. pym , mr. stroud , mr. st. iohn , lord digby , sir iohn clotworthy , sir walter earle , and mr. hampden . which select committee retired immediately into the committee-chamber , to prepare matter of a conference to be prayed with the lords , and a charge against the earl of strafford . the said committee presently returned to the house , and reported the matter to them referred ; whereupon it was resolved upon the question , that a message be sent from this house to the lords , in the name of this house , and of all the commons of england , to accuse thomas lord wentworth , earl of strafford , lord lieutenant of ireland , of high treason , and to desire that he may be sequestred from parliament , and be committed to prison ; and that within some convenient time this house will resort to their lordships with particular accusations and articles against him . mr. pym went up with this message to the lords , and at his return made this report to the house . that he had repaired to the lords , and there , in the name of this house , and of all the commons of england , did accuse the said earl of strafford of high treason , and that he had also delivered the other particulars he had in charge . their lordships answer was , that they do desire to take this weighty matter into their serious consideration , and will speedily send an answer by messengers of their own . afterwards mr. pym was sent up to the lords , with a message that some fit course be taken , that there may be free passage between england and ireland , notwithstanding any restraint made there to the contrary . the same day came a message from the lords by the two chief justices , that the lords have taken into serious consideration , the accusation sent from this house against the earl of strafford , and have sequestred him from the house , and have committed him in safe custody to the messenger of their house , and they will move his majesty , that the passage from ireland into england may be open , notwithstanding any restraint made there to the contrary . the message delivered by mr. pym was in manner following : my lords , the knights , citizens and burgesses now assembled in the commons house of parliament , have received information of divers traiterous designs and practices of a great peer of this house , and by vertue of a command from them , i do here in the name of the commons now assembled in parliament , and in the name of all the commons of england , accuse thomas earl of strafford , lord lieutenant of ireland , of high treason : and they have commanded me further to desire your lordships , that he may be sequestred from the parliament , and forthwith committed to prison . they further commanded me to let you know , that they will within a very few days resort to your lordships with the particular articles and grounds of this accusation . the earl being required to withdraw , it was debated by the peers , whether he should be imprisoned on a general accusation , without any particular act of treason charged against him or not ? but upon the question it was carried in the affirmative , and he being called in , kneeled at the bar ; and after standing up , the lord-keeper spake to him as followeth : my lord of strafford , the house of commons , in their own name , and in the name of the whole commons of england , have this day accused your lordship to the lords of the higher house of parliament of high treason , the articles they will in a few days produce ; in the mean time they have desired of my lords , and my lords have accordingly resolved , that your lordship shall be committed into safe custody to the gentleman-usher , and be sequestred from the house , till your lordship shall clear your self of the accusations that shall be laid against you . and thereupon he was immediately taken into custody by iames maxwell , usher of the black rod. thursday , novemb. th , . a message came from the lords by the lord chief justice littleton , and the lord chief baron davenport : that the lords have commanded us to let you know , that in pursuit of your desire yesterday , to have the ports open between ireland and england , some of the lords had moved his majesty in it , and it shall be done speedily and effectually . this day the house fell into serious debate concerning sir george ratcliff , an intimate of the lord lieutenants of ireland , in whom he reposed great trust and confidence , and by the discourse was as if he were guilty of high treason , in endeavouring to subvert the fundamental laws , and that he did joyn with the earl to bring in an army from ireland into this kingdom , and had joined with the said earl to use regal power , and to deprive the subjects of this kingdom of their liberties . it was moved , that he might be sent for over ; as also for sir robert king , who is a material witness against the earl of strafford . but for as much as they were members of the parliament then sitting in ireland , it was referred to a committee , viz. mr. st. iohns , mr. selden , mr. ieofrey palmer , mr. solicitor , mr. maynard , mr. grimston , mr. chadwell . which committee had power to consider what was fit to be done in sending for sir george ratcliff , and sir robert king , in regard they are members of the said parliament now sitting in ireland , and to present it to the consideration of this house , and are to meet to morrow morning at seven of the clock in the committee-chamber . ordered , mr. speaker be intreated to be here this afternoon , to sit by , at the great committee for irish affairs , and if there be cause , to resume the house . and accordingly the grand committee of the whole house sate this afternoon upon the irish affairs , and the speaker sate by , according to order . there came word that the lords were come , and expected the committee of this house at the conference ; concerning the proceedings at the great council at york . mr. speaker assumed the chair , and it was moved , that the committees that sate in other places , might be sent for to attend the conference ; that those gentlemen might be sent for by the mace that were gone before to the conference . the house rose , and the committee went up to meet the committee of the lords at the conference ; and mr. speaker adjourned the house , and went home . friday , novemb. th , . ordered , that the committee for preparing the charge against the lord lieutenant , being now sine die , meet this afternoon at four of the clock in the treasury-chamber , which committee has power to receive all such petitions and papers , as may conduce to the business , and have likewise power to send for records , papers , parties , and witnesses , or any other thing that they shall think may conduce to the perfecting that charge . the king's solicitor reported from the committee appointed to consider of the manner of sending for sir george ratcliff and sir robert king , being , as is inform'd , members of the parliament in ireland . that the committee were of opinion , that it is better to examine this matter , according to the rules and foundations of this house , than to rest upon scattered instances : they distinguished between the case of sir george ratcliff and sir robert king thus , we find an information given ( which if it be true ) of high treason against sir george ratcliff , then there is no doubt , but in case of high treason , priviledge of parliament neither here nor there doth reach to protect him , but that sir george ratcliff may be sent for , though a member in parliament there ; this was the opinion of the committee . for the other , sir robert king , the case did differ , for to send for him to testifie in any case , were of dangerous consequence ; or to send for him to testifie in the kings bench in case of treason , where the court doth ordinarily sit ; but this case differs between sending for a member of parliament to give evidence in any ordinary thing , or in any ordinary court , for the parliament is a court that doth not ordinarily sit , a court of the great affairs of the kingdom ; therefore to be sent for hither to this high court , and to testifie in a case of the highest nature , in case of treason informed of against sir george ratcliff , we did conceive it to be no breach of priviledge of parliament that he should be sent for , and if the house require of us our opinions concerning the manner of sending for him , we shall tell you what we conceive of it . which report being made , it was resolved upon the question : that sir george ratcliff shall be forthwith sent for , to answer the information that is charged against him here of high treason . resolved upon the question , that sir robert king shall forthwith be sent for hither , as a witness to testifie in case of high treason . mr. solicitor likewise offered , from the committee , to the consideration of the house , two orders , which were read , in haec verba , and by vote ordered accordingly , viz. it is ordered by this house upon the question , that sir george ratcliff being , as is informed , a member of the parliament in ireland , because there is an information in this house of high treason against him , shall be forthwith sent for , and brought hither in safe custody , no priviledge of parliament extending to this case . ordered two messengers to be sent with these orders , and each messenger to have copies of both the orders . it was likewise offered from the committee , that the honourable persons , near the chair , would beseech his majesty , that he would be pleased to give such directions , as in his wisdom he shall think fit for the more expeditious sending for these parties . mr. treasurer delivered this message to his majesty . saturday , november th , . mr. treasurer after he had read out of a paper , the message which yesterday the house desired him to deliver to his majesty : declared , that he had acquainted the king therewith , who , this morning , hath given order to mr. secretary windebank , who deals for the affairs into ireland , to make instant dispatch to the deputy there , that all expedition be done according to the message . secondly , concerning the three letters desired by my lord mountnorris ; they were procured by mr. secretary cook , who was imployed about the affairs for ireland at that time , that he is now in the country in darbyshire ; his majesty will take some time to be informed in this , and no time shall be lost , and there shall be an account given . wednesday , november th , . ordered that no member of this house shall visit the earl of strafford , during the time of his restraint , without licence first obtained from the house . ordered a message be sent to the lords , to desire them , that they would please to appoint a committee of a very few , that in the presence of some of this house might take such depositions , and examine such witnesses as they should name upon interrogatories and questions , as shall be presented to them by order of this house concerning the earl of strafford , and the interrogatories , testimonies , and witnesses to be kept private , until the charge be made full and perfect . ordered that mr. pym go up with this message , accompanied with so many as shall be pleased to go . then the house fell into debate , concerning those lords who petitioned the king for a parliament to be called : whereupon it was resolved upon the question , that those lords which were petitioners to his majesty at york ; in their petition , a copy whereof was here now read , have done nothing but what was legal , just , and expedient for the good of the king and kingdom , and is now approved by the whole body of the commons . resolved upon the question , that the copy of the petition now read , and formerly preferred by the lords to his majesty at york , shall be here entred . thursday , november th , . it is ordered , that if occasion shall be for the examination of any members of this house in the business concerning the earl of strafford , they shall be ready upon notice , to be examined upon oath . it is likewise ordered , that upon the message to be sent from this house , the lords be desired to make the like order for the members and assistants of their house , and to desire their lordships , that if occasion be , that any privy-counsellors be produced as witnesses , they will take such course as in their judgments they shall think fit , that they may be examined . this message to be sent to morrow morning , by the messengers formerly sent . mr. st. iohns , mr. palmer , mr. glimer , mr. selden , mr. grimstone , mr. maynard , sir simond d'ewes , mr. whstiler , mr. thomas widerington , mr. sollicitor . this select committee , or any two of them , are appointed to search the record of attainder in the kings bench , in such manner , and at such time , as they shall think fit , for the furtherance of the charge in hand against the earl of strafford . friday , november th , . mr. whistler reported from the committee for irish affairs , that he is required , by the committee , to report to the house the affairs of that kingdom , as they were set forth in a remonstrance , made by the house of commons in this present parliament in ireland , wherein it appeared that trading was destroyed , industry disheartned , new and unlawful impositions were imposed , the arbitrary determinations of all causes for goods , land and possessions , by petitions , and act at council-table where no writ of error can lie , and the king loseth a fine upon the original writ thereby : that his majesties gracious inclination for the good of that kingdom is kept from them : that there is a monopoly of the sole trade of tobacco , of more gain to the parties interessed therein , than the king 's whole revenue in ireland . the destroying of the plantation of london-derry ; the exorbitant power of the high commission , which cryeth loud in all the three kingdoms : the proclamation forbidding any to depart thence for england without licence , and pay dear for it : the many subsidies given , and monies raised for the king , and still he is in debt , and therefore demands an account of his treasure , and desires present redress , or access to his majesty . a copy of the remonstrance was delivered in , under the hand of the clerk of the parliament there , and was read , and shall be entred , if so ordered . that the secretaries there , mr. slingsby and mr. little , be required to send hither the book of entries of the several petitions presented to the late lord deputy , now lord lieutenant of ireland , and the several orders and proceedings thereupon made . that mr. little the younger and mr. carpenter , who have the monopoly for tobacco , be required to send hither those warrants by which they demand , and have laid those taxes upon tobacco . that the several affairs of the custom-house and ports , ( viz. ) dublin , kingsale , yowhall , waterford , corke , galloway , carrick-fergus , and bangor be required to send hither their books of entries , whereby the impositions laid upon several commodities , may appear ; there were several warrants issued forth according to this order , and sent away . post merid. the articles offered by a member of this house against the earl of strafford are referred to the committee , that are to draw up the charge against the said earl , which being reported , were as followeth : articles of the commons assembled in parliament against thomas earl of strafford , in maintenance of his accusation , whereby he stands charged of high treason . . that he the said thomas , earl of strafford , hath traiterously endeavoured to subvert the fundamental laws and government of the realms of england and ireland , and in stead thereof , to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannical government against law , which he hath declared by traiterous words , counsels , and actions , and by giving his majesty advice , by force of arms , to compel his loyal subjects to submit thereunto . . that he hath traiterously assumed to himself regal power over the lives , liberties , persons , lands , and goods of his majesties subjects in england and ireland , and hath exercised the same tyrannically , to the subversion and undoing of many , both of peers and others of his majesties liege people . . that the better to inrich and inable himself to go through with his traiterous designs ; he hath detained a great part of his majesties revenue , without giving legal account ; and hath taken great sums out of the exchequer , converting them to his own use , when his majesty wanted money for his own urgent occasions , and his army had been a long time unpaid . . that he hath traiterously abused the power and authority of his government , to the encreasing , countenancing , and encouraging of papists , that so he might settle a mutual dependance and confidence betwixt himself and that party , and by their help prosecute and accomplish his malicious and tyrannical designs . . that he hath maliciously endeavoured to stir up enmity and hostility between his majesties subjects of england , and those of scotland . . that he hath traiterously broke the great trust reposed in him by his majesty , of lieutenant-general of his army , by wilful betraying divers of his majesties subjects to death , his army to a dishonourable defeat by the scots at newborne , and the town of new-castle into their hands , to the end , that by the effusion of blood , by dishonour , and so great a loss as that of new-castle , his majesties realm of england might be engaged in a national and irreconcilable quarrel with the scots . . that to preserve himself from being questioned for those and other his traiterous courses , he laboured to subvert the right of parliaments , and the ancient course of parliamentary proceedings , and by false and malicious slanders , to incense his majesty against parliaments . by which words , counsels , and actions , he hath traiterously , and contrary to his allegiance , laboured to alienate the hearts of the king's liege people from his majesty , to set a division between them , and to ruine and destroy his majesties kingdoms , for which they impeach him of high treason against our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity . . and he the said earl of strafford was lord-deputy of ireland , and lieutenant-general of the army there , viz. his most excellent majesty , for his kingdoms both of england and ireland , and the lord president of the north , during the time that all and every the crimes and offences before set forth were done and committed ; and he the said earl was lieutenant-general of all his majesties army in the north parts of england , during the time that the crimes and offences in the fifth and sixth articles set forth were done and committed . . that the said commons by protestations , saving to themselves the liberty of exhibiting at any time hereafter any other accusation or impeachment against the said earl ; and also of replying to the answers that he the said earl shall make unto the said articles , or to any of them , and of offering proofs ; also of the premisses , or any of them ; or any other impeachment or accusation that shall be exhibited by them , as the cause shall , according to the course of parliaments , require , do pray that the said earl may be put to answer for all and every of the premisses , that such proceedings , examinations , trials and judgments may be upon every of them , had and used as is agreeable to law and justice . tuesday , november th , . these articles thus resolved upon by question , were by another question ordered to be engrossed against to morrow morning , and no copies to be delivered of them in the interim ; and the same committee that prepared the charge is to draw up the interrogatories , and mr. pym is to go up to the lords with the charge . wednesday , november th , . lord digby went up with this message to the lords : that this house desires a conference with their lordships , by a committee of both houses , concerning the articles to be exhibited against the earl of strafford . lord digby brings answer , that their lordships have considered the message , and desire to meet a committee of that house , with a committee of theirs , presently in the painted-chamber . the ingrossed articles were again openly read in the house , and agreed to be sent up to the lords by mr. pym , by a vote upon the question . mr. pym before he went , made a short declaration of the substance of that he intended to deliver unto the lords , both before and after the delivery of the articles . mr. pym's report of the conference with the lords , in delivering up the articles against the earl of strafford , that he attended the great committee of this house , and , in their presence , delivered to the committee of the lords house the charge against the earl of strafford , and if any thing passed him through weakness , or disability , he desires the excuse of this house . it was moved , that mr. pym might have thanks for his well delivery of the charge against the earl of strafford . friday , november th , . a message from the lords by justice littleton and justice bartley . the lords desire a conference by a committee of thirty of their house , with a proportionable number of this house , concerning the message that was brought unto them by mr. pym , touching the examination of their members , in the accusation of the earl of strafford , and desire a free conference touching the last point of that message , that some of the members of this house should be present at the examination , and they desire it this morning in the painted-chamber , if it may stand with the conveniency of this house . answer returned by the same messenger , that this house has taken into consideration their lordships message , and will in convenient time return answer by messengers of their own . saturday , november th , . mr. whistler reports from the grand committee for irish affairs , that there are many petitions , and full of matter of complaints of the proceedings in ireland , and suitors here for justice . there are many petitioners here whose estates are so exhausted , that they are scarce able to bring witnesses from ireland hither ; many great persons of quality and trust are in ireland , material witnesses to be examined , as the master of the rolls , the lord chancellor , and others ; these can hardly be spared , to come hither , to give their testimony . the committee desires the advice of the house in this particular ( which without their judgments cannot be determined ) to think of some way how these parties might have their testimony taken , and the truth might be known , and justice done . this whole matter thus reported from the committee for irish affairs , is recommitted to the same committee again to consider of it , and to draw those things that are to be inquired of under apt heads , and so present them to the judgment of this house to proceed accordingly . mr. maynard , mr. st. iohns , mr. hide , mr. whistler , mr. ieofrey palmer , mr. glyn , mr. sollicitor . this committee is to collect and offer to this house , reasons for this house to make use of , and insist upon , in maintainance of that point of the message of this house to the lords , which desires the presence of some of the members of this house , at the examination of such witnesses , as shall be proposed by this house in the accusation of the earl of strafford . to the right honourable the lord-deputy . the humble and just remonstrance of the knights , citizens , and burgesses of the parliament assembled . shewing , that in all ages since the happy subjection of this kingdom to the imperial crown of england , it was , and is a principal study , and princely care of his majesty , and his noble progenitors , kings and queens of england and ireland , to the vast expence of treasure and blood ; that their loyal and dutiful people of this land of ireland , being now , for the most part , derived from british ancestors , should be governed according to the municipal and fundamental laws of england , that the statute of magna charta , or the great charter of the liberties of england , and other laudable laws and statutes , were in several parliaments here enacted and declared , that by the means thereof , and of the most prudent and benign government of his majesty , and his royal progenitors , this kingdom was , until of late , in its growth a flourishing estate , whereby the said people were heretofore enabled , to answer their humble and natural desires , to comply with his majesties princely and royal occasions , by their free gift of thousand pounds sterling ; and likewise by another free gift of thousand pounds more , during the government of the lord viscount faulkland , and after by the gift of thousand pounds ; and their free and chearful gift of six intire subsidies in the th year of his majesties reign , which , to comply with his majesties then occasions , signified to the then house of commons , they did allow should amount , in the collections , unto thousand pounds ( although , as they confidently believe ) if the subsidies had been levied in a moderate parliamentary way , they would not have amounted to much more than half the sum aforesaid , besides the four intire susidies granted in this present parliament . so it is , may it please your lordship , by the occasion of the insuing , and other grievances and innovations ( though to his majesty no considerable profit ) this kingdom is reduced to that extream and universal poverty , that the same is less able to pay subsidies than it was heretofore , to satisfie all the before recited great payments : and his majesties most faithful people of the land do conceive great fears , that the said grievances and consequences thereof , may be hereafter drawn into presidents , to be perpetuated upon their posterity , which in their great hopes , and strong beliefs , they are perswaded is contrary to his royal and princely intention towards his said people ; some of which said grievances are as followeth : . the general apparent decay of trades , occasioned by the new and illegal raising of the book of rates and impositions upon native , and other commodities , exported and imported , by reason whereof , and of extream usage and censures , merchants are beggered , and both disinabled and discouraged to trade , and some of the honourable persons who gain thereby , are often judges and parties , and that in the conclusion his majesties profit thereby is not considerably advanced . . the arbitrary decision of all civil causes and controversies , by paper petitions , before the lord lieutenant and lord deputy , and infinite other judicatories upon reference from them , derived in the nature of all actions determinable at the common law , not limitted into certain time , cause , season , or thing whatsoever : and the consequences of such proceedings , by receiving immoderate and unlawful fees , by secretaries , clerks , pursevants , serjeants at arms , and otherwise , by which kind of proceedings his majesty loseth a considerable part of his revenue upon original writs , and otherwise ; and the subject loseth the benefit of his writ of error , bill of reversal , vouchers , and other legal and just advantages , and the ordinary course and courts of justice declined . . the proceedings in civil causes at council-board , contrary to the law and great charter , not limited to any certain time or season . . that the subject is , in all the material parts thereof , denied the benefit of the princely graces , and more especially of the statute of limitations of of iac. granted by his majesty in the fourth year of his reign , upon great advice of the councils of england and ireland , and for great consideration , and then published in all the courts of dublin , and in all the counties of this kingdom , in open assizes , whereby all persons do take notice , that contrary to his majesties pious intentions , his subjects of this land have not enjoyed the benefit of his majesties princely promise thereby made . . the extrajudicial avoiding of letters patents of estates , of a very great part of his majesties subjects , under the great seal ( the publick faith of the kingdom ) by private opinions , delivered at the council-board , without legal evictions of their estates , contrary to law , and without president or example of any former age. . the proclamation for the sole emption and uttering of tobacco , which is bought at very low rates , and uttered at high and excessive rates , by means whereof thousands of families within this kingdom , and of his majesties subjects in several islands , and other parts of the west-indies ( as your petitioners are informed ) are destroyed ; and the most part of the coin of this kingdom is ingrossed into particular hands , insomuch that your petitioners do conceive that the profit arising and ingrossed thereby , doth surmount his majesties revenue , certain or casual , within this kingdom , and yet his majesty receiveth but very little profit by the same . . the universal and unlawful encreasing of monopolies , to the advantage of a few , the disprofit of his majesty , and impoverishment of his people . . and the extream cruel usage of certain late commissioners , and other stewards of the british farmers and inhabitants of the city and county of london-derry , by means whereof the worthy plantation of that country is almost destroyed , and the inhabitants are reduced to great poverty , and many of them forced to forsake the country , the same being the first and most useful plantation in the large province of ulster , to the great weakning of the kingdom in this time of danger ; the said plantation being the principal strength of those parts . . the late erection of the court of high commission , for causes ecclesiastical , in these necessitous times ; the proceedings of the said court , in many causes without legal warrant , and yet so supported as prohibitions have not been obtained , though legally sought for : and the excessive fees exacted by the ministers thereof , and the encroaching of the same upon the jurisdiction of other ecclesiastical courts of this kingdom . . the exorbitant fees , and pretended customs , exacted by the clergy against the law , some of which have been formerly represented to your lordship . . the petitioners do most heartily bemoan , that his majesties service and profit are much more impaired than advanced by the grievances aforesaid ; and the subsidies granted in the last parliament , having much encreased his majesties revenue by the buying of grants , and otherwise : and that all his majesties debts then due in this kingdom , were satisfied out of the said subsidies ; and yet his majesty is of late ( as the petitioners have been informed in the house of commons ) become indebted in this kingdom in great sums . and they do therefore humbly beseech , that an exact account may be sent to his majesty , how and in what manner his treasure is issued . . the petitioners do humbly conceive just and great fears , at a proclamation published in this kingdom , in anno domini . prohibiting men of quality or estates to depart this kingdom into england , without the lord-deputies licence , whereby the subjects of this kingdom are hindred and interrupted from free access , to address to his sacred majesty , and privy-council of england , to declare their just grievances , or to obtain remedies for them in such sort , as their ancestors have done in all ages since the reign of king henry the second , and great fees exacted for every of the said licences . . that of late his majesties attorney-general hath exhibited informations against many ancient burroughs of this kingdom , into his majesties court of exchequer , to shew cause by what warrant the said burgesses ( who heretofore sent burgesses to parliament ) should send the burgesses to the parliament , and thereupon , for want of an answer , the said priviledges of sending burgesses was seized by the said court , which proceedings were altogether coram non iudice , and contrary to the laws and priviledges of the house of parliament , ( and if way should be given thereunto ) would tend to the subversion of parliaments , and by consequence to the ruine and destruction of the common wealth . and that the house of commons hath hitherto , in this present parliament , been deprived of the advice and counsel of many profitable and good members by means thereof . . by the powerfulness of some ministers of state in this kingdom , the parliament in its members , and actions , hath not its natural freedom . . and lastly , that the gentry and merchants , and other his majesties subjects of this kingdom , are of late by the grievances and pressures before said , and other the like , brought very near to ruine and destruction : and the farmers of customs , customers , waiters , searchers , clerks of unwarrantable proceedings , pursevants , and goalers , and sundry others , very much enriched , whereby , and by the slow redress of the petitioners grievances , his majesties most faithful and dutiful people of this kingdom do conceive great fears , that their readiness approved upon all occasions , hath not been of late rightly represented to his sacred majesty : for remedy whereof , the said petitioners do humbly , and of right , beseech your lordships , that the said grievances and pressures may be speedily redressed ; and if your lordship shall not think fit to afford present relief , that your lordship might admit a select committee of this house , of persons uninteressed in the benefit arising of the aforesaid grievances , to be licenced by your lordship , to repair to his sacred majesty in england , for to pursue the same , and to obtain fitting remedy for their aforesaid and other just grievances and oppressions ; and upon all just and honourable occasions , they will , without respect of particular interest or profit to be raised thereby , most humbly and readily in parliament extend their utmost endeavour to serve his majesty , and comply with his royal and princely occasions , and shall pray , &c. monday , november th , . sir thomas roe , mr. pym , mr. strode , mr. st. iohns , mr. grimston , lord digby , sir iohn clotworthy , sir walter earle , mr. hampden , mr. maynard , mr. hyde , mr. whistler , mr. palmer , mr. glyn , mr. solicitor , mr. selden , my lord dungarvan , sir francis seymor , sir hugh cholmely , lord wenman , sir io. evelyn , sir benjamin rudyard , sir iames thynn , sir iohn culpepper , sir iohn strangwaies , sir symon d'ewes , mr. george vane , lord cramborne , lord compton , mr. bellassis , mr. kirton , sir thomas hutchison , sir william bowyer , sir iames smith , sir arthur ingram , lord russell , lord ruthin , mr. comisby , mr. noel , sir thomas bowyer , mr. cecill , lord fairfax , sir thomas widdrington , sir peter hayman , sir iohn holland , mr. iames fynes , sir robert crane , sir iohn corbet , mr. io. alford , sir roger north , sir edmond mountford , mr. whitlocke , mr. mountagne , lord faulkland , sir peter stapleton , sir henry mildmay , lord herbert , sir richard wynn , sir edward rodney , sir ralph hopton , this committee is to meet with the committee of of the lords , concerning a message sent hither on friday last from their lordships , touching a message sent formerly from this house to them by mr. pym , for the examination of their members , in the accusation of the earl of strafford , and touching a free conference upon the last point of that message , that some of the members of this house should be present at the examination of witnesses , to be propounded by this house , to be examined in the accusation of the earl of strafford . the petition of several of the knights , citizens , and burgesses of the commons house of parliament in ireland , whose names are underwritten , directed to the whole house of commons in england read . the humble petition of the knights , citizens , and burgesses of the commons house of parliament in ireland , whose names are underwritten : to the king 's most excellent majesty read . the two gentlemen , mr. io. bellewe and mr. oliver castle , who brought over those petitions were called in , and demanded by mr. speaker several questions . these gentlemen were again called in , and mr. speaker told them : this house has taken into consideration your petition , and in due time you shall know the pleasure of this house . ordered , that the lieutenant of the tower be required from this house , that he do not suffer sir george ratcliff to speak with the earl of strafford , a prisoner there , until further order be given from this house , nor suffer any message or letter to be sent from sir george ratcliff unto him ; or if any such be , to give notice of it to this house , sir george ratcliff being already sent for , by order of this house , upon an information of high treason . resolved upon the question , that the earl of craford's troop , and those other officers in the army , that go under the name of reformadoes are unnecessary charge , and fit to be spared ; and that my lord general be moved by message from this house thereunto . resolved , that those companies , or other officers , that shall be thus casheer'd by the lord general , shall be paid to the eighth of december next . tuesday , december . . a message from the lords by baron trevor and iudge bartley . the lords have sent us to this house , to desire a present conference in the painted chamber , with the same committee that was concerning the matter of the free conference yesterday . answer returned by the same messengers . this house has taken into consideration the message of the lords , and they return this answer , that they will give a meeting presently , as is desired . mr. pym reports from the conference this day , that the lords committee , with whom we had a free conference yesterday , took the matter into consideration , and their resolution is : that such members of the house of commons , as they shall make choice of , shall be present from time to time at the preparatory examinations concerning the earl of strafford . the lord keeper expected we should say something . we told them , we had no warrant ; for a conference was desired concerning the matter of free conference , and that a free conference was not desired ; the question they would have been satisfied in , was , whether we did intend to have the examinations taken publick in the house , or by a private committee ? i answered , we had no commission for a free conference . the same committee that were appointed to draw up the charge against the earl of strafford , are to be present at the preparatory examinations of witnesses before the lords , to present such questions unto the lords as they shall think fit thereupon ; and after a full examination , to present the whole state of the business to this house . a message to be sent to the lords , to acquaint them that the house is ready , by some members of this house , to present divers witnesses to be examined , and such questions as they shall desire that those witnesses so propounded by them may be all examined one after another , with speed and secresie . thursday morning is peremptorily appointed for sir george ratcliff to appear here , and if he come not then , a message is to be sent to the lords , to desire them to move his majesty for a proclamation to be ordered against him , to bring him in . power is given to the committee that is to be present at the preparatory examination of witnesses before the lords , to summon such witnesses to be examined to morrow as they shall think fit . mr. maynard's report from the conference yesterday . the lords said , they had taken the message into consideration sent by mr. pym , some things were resolved , others not , and for that purpose desired a free conference ; whereas we did desire to examine some members of this house , they were ready to examine them when we should require . they answered , that the peers of their house that shall be desired , and all the assistants of that house , when they shall be thereunto required , shall be examined upon oath ; and next for the time and secresie , they said they should be speedily examined , and examinations secretly kept . thursday , december . . a message brought from the lords by my lord chief justice littleton and judge bartley , that according to a desire of this house , by a late message , they have deputed certain of their members to take the examination of witnesses in the case of the earl of strafford , which they will be ready to perform in the presence of such members of this house , as shall be deputed to that purpose . ordered , that the earl of kildares petition , presented to the grand committee for irish affairs , be referred to the sub-committee for those affairs . friday , december . . ordered , that those members of this house , that be appointed to be present at the preparatory examinations before the lords , be required to declare that by their duty they owe to this house , they are obliged to keep all those examinations secret . those eight appointed for that service did make all of them protestations to that purpose . ordered , that those eight , or any four of them , may be present at the preparatory examinations before the lords . mr. selden , mr. dutton , mr. crew , sir peter hayman , sir harbottle grimston , sir henry anderson , sir nevil poole , sir thomas barrington . saturday . the petition of richard heaton and lyonell farrington were read , and farrington called in , did avow his petition ; the petitions are referred to the committee appointed to draw up the charge against the earl of strafford to make use of it , if they shall see cause . december th , . ordered , that the committee appointed to draw up the charge against the earl of strafford , shall have power to examine witnesses concerning sir george ratcliff , and to prepare a charge against him , and to present it to this house . tuesday , december th , . the articles against sir george ratcliff read. resolved upon the question , that this house shall accuse sir george ratcliff knight , of high treason , in the name of all the commons of england . that these articles thus read , shall be the ground of this accusation . that a message shall be sent forthwith to the lords , to accuse sir george ratcliff knight , of high treason , in the name of this house , and of all the commons of england , and that very speedily they will bring articles against him . resolved upon the question , that the articles prepared by the committee against sir george ratcliff , and read here , shall be engrossed against to morrow , to be sent to the lords , as a charge , against him . a message sent from the lords by the master of the rolls and judge reeves . the lords have commanded us to say to you , that whereas there came a message from this house , to accuse sir george ratcliff of high treason ; they would know , whether they should presently take care to make safe his person ? answer returned by the same messengers : that this house has taken their lordships message into consideration , and will forthwith return them answer by messengers of their own . mr. pym went up to the lords to acquaint them , that this day the house of commons gave no instructions to their former messengers , concerning the committing of sir george ratcliff , because his person is already in safe custody in the gate-house , and they intended to have acquainted their lordships with it , when they had produced the articles against him , which would have been very shortly , but since they are prevented by their lordships , they refer what to do in it to their lordships . mr. pym brings answer from the lords of his message , that concerning the safe custody of sir george ratcliff , they had sent for him , and had taken order in it , and touching the receiving of the examinations in this cause , there should be the same course observed in them as was in the earl of strafford . thursday , december . . the articles against sir george ratcliff , by former order ingrossed , were twice read ; and then it was resolved upon the question , that these articles thus ingrossed and read , shall be sent up to the lords by the commons assembled in parliament , in maintenance of their accusation of sir george ratcliff , whereby he standeth charged of high treason ; and it is ordered , that mr. pym go up with these articles . resolved upon the question , that a message be sent forthwith to the lords , to desire a conference of both houses , concerning articles exhibited in maintenance of the charge against sir george ratcliff . sir iohn strangways went up with this message . it was moved , that the house would think of some answer to the lords , concerning the charges against the lord archbishop of canterbury , and the earl of strafford , delivered from the scottish commissioners , at a conference by a committee of both houses . monday , ianuary th , . ordered , that a conference be desired with the lords to morrow morning , concerning the state , the disorders and dangers of the new levied irish army , and to present them to their lordships , and to desire them to join with the house in a petition to his majesty , for the disbanding of that army . the committee appointed for the earl of strafford's business , are to prepare the heads of this conference ; and the members of this house are required to bring into this committee , between this and to morrow morning , such informations as shall come to their hands conducing to these matters ; sir walter earle and sir iohn clotworthy are to manage this conference . it was likewise moved , that at this conference , considerations might be had of the great resort daily made to the earl of strafford . mr. nathaniel fines is to go up to morrow morning with a message to the lords , to desire a conference with their lordships , concerning the disorders and inconveniences of the new levied irish army . and to desire a free conference concerning those declarations presented by the scottish commissioners , against the lord lieutenant and the lord archbishop of canterbury , as incendiaries ; sir peter hayman to go up with this message . the subject of his conference to be , to present to the lords , that it may be made known to the lords commissioners , that the scottish commissioners be desired to bring in their proofs against the lord lieutenant , and the lord archbishop of canterbury , to the end , the parliament may proceed to judgment . tuesday , ianuary th , . ordered , that the several petitions of sir henry wallop , the lord viscount nettersfield , be referred to the sub-committee , formerly appointed by the grand committee for irish affairs for the business of sir henry wallop , because there is something in those petitions that will materially conduce to the charge of the earl of strafford . ordered , that the committee appointed to prepare some fit way of representing to the lords the four irish causes formerly reported here , ( viz. ) that of the lord mountnorris , the lord dillon , lord viscount ely , and the earl of kildare do sit . friday , ianuary th , . ordered , that the committee appointed to draw up the charge against the earl of strafford , shall desire to have the depositions that are yet sealed up , delivered unto them , and may add and insert such particular instances , and other circumstances , as they in their discretions shall think fit to the several articles delivered in charge against the earl of strafford , according to the saving in the conclusion of those articles , and that they present the whole matter to the house on monday morning next . saturday , ianuary th , . mr. pym went up to the lords with a message to this effect : to desire their lordships , that those examinations which , at the request of this house , were taken , in the case of the earl of strafford , by the lords deputed to that purpose , may be delivered to the commissioners of this house appointed to draw up the charge against the earl , that they may make use of them for the enlarging of their charge , in particularities of evidences , according to the clause of resolution in the conclusion of the said charge ; and likewise to make a declaration , that howsoever , by the course of parliament , this house might proceed with the charge in general , yet to avoid all scruples , and to bring the business sooner to a conclusion , they do desire to conclude in this way . saturday , ianuary . . mr. selden , mr. palmer , mr. whitlock , mr. maynard . by order , are added to the committee that are to draw up the articles against the earl of strafford . thursday , ianuary th , . the further impeachment of thomas earl of strafford , by the commons assembled in parliament , was this day read . friday , ianuary th , . ordered , that the consideration of the commission granted to the earl of worcester , and his eldest son the lord herbert , and some commissions by them granted to others , for the levying of forces in the several counties of england and wales , and all the circumstances depending thereupon , be referred to the committee to draw up the charge against the earl of strafford , and to consider of the magazine in sir piercy herbert's custody . saturday , ianuary th , . the further impeachment of thomas earl of strafford was again read , and the title of the impeachment , and every article , and the conclusion , were every of them particularly put to the question , and were every of them assented unto , and resolved upon the question : and afterwards it was resolved upon the question , that these articles being engrossed , shall be forthwith sent up to the lords . ordered , that mr. hambden go up with a message to the lords , to desire a conference with their lordships presently ( if it may stand with their lordships occasions ) by a committee of both houses , touching the further impeachment of thomas earl of strafford . mr. pym is to manage this conference , and mr. maynard is to be assistant to him . mr. pym acquaints the house , that according to their command , he had delivered unto the lords the articles for the further impeachment of thomas earl of strafford . ordered , that the thanks of this house be given to mr. pym , and to the whole committee , for the great service they have done this house in the great pains they have taken , in preparing and drawing up the charge and articles against thomas earl of strafford . tuesday , february th , . sir philip stapleton went up to the lords , with a message , to desire a conference with their lordships , by a committee of both houses , presently ( if it may stand with their lordships occasions ) concerning the earl of strafford . resolved upon the question , that the heads reported by mr. pym from the committee appointed to prepare the heads of the conference to be desired with the lords , concerning the earl of strafford , shall be heads of that conference , and that committee is to manage the conference . sir philip stapleton brings answer from the lords , that their lordships do expect his majesty at their house this morning ; and that so soon as his majesty shall be gone , they will send answer by messengers of their own . thursday , february th , . the lords desired a conference by a committee of both houses , concerning the sequestring of thomas earl of strafford from his offices , presently in the painted chamber , if it may stand with the conveniency of this house . to which , answer was returned , that they will give a meeting presently for a free conference . mr. pym reports the free conference . upon mr. pyms report , it was ordered , that this committee , viz. sir walter earle , sir io. culpepper , mr. hollis , mr. solicitor , mr. vaughan , mr. hyde , mr. pym , mr. maynard , mr. selden , mr. palmer , mr. whitlock , sir simon d'ewes , mr. whistler , mr. glyn , and mr. hampden . do take into consideration the whole matter of the report of the free conference now made by mr. pym , and also what concerns the right of the commons in the proceedings in the lords house against the earl of strafford , and what concerns the kingdom in general , and the legality of these proceedings ; and they are likewise to consider , what is fit for the commons to claim in causes of impeachment ; and they are to meet this afternoon at two of the clock in the treasury chamber . friday , february th , . that the committee for the earl of strafford shall have liberty to open all letters directed to sir george ratcliff , and if they find it worthy the knowledge of the house , they are to acquaint the house therewith . ordered , that the committee , appointed to consider of the proceedings in the lords house against thomas earl of strafford , do meet this afternoon at two of the clock in the treasury chamber . tuesday , february . . a message from the lords , desiring a present conference by a committee of both houses in the painted-chamber ( if it may stand with the convenience of this house ) concerning the conference that was yesterday , touching the proceedings against thomas earl of strafford . answer returned by the same messenger , that this house hath taken into consideration their lordships message , and will give a meeting for a free conference , as is desired . mr. glyn reports from the conference , that the lord keeper delivered the lords answer in these words , viz. first , that we shall admit him no further use of council , than the necessity of the case , for his just defence , requireth , and wherein council may , with the justice and honour of this house , be afforded him . secondly , that there shall be no delay in proceedings , but all expedition used according to their own desires . wednesday , february th , . a message from the lords , desiring a conference by a committee of both houses , touching the answer of thomas earl of strafford presently , if it may stand with the conveniency of this house . answer returned by the same messengers , that this house will give a meeting presently , as is desired . mr. solicitor , mr. maynard , mr. pym , mr. reynolds , mr. palmer , and mr. hampden , are appointed reporters of the conference . mr. solicitor reports from the conference , that yesterday was the day the lords had prefixed for my lord of strafford to give in his answer , that accordingly he was there , and had given it in ; and that this answer which now they had delivered to the commons was the answer which the earl of strafford was to stand or fall by . the engrossed answer , and a copy of it , were both delivered in by the reporters , and was desired , that when the copy was perfectly examined , the original might be delivered to the clerk of their house . ordered , that mr. speaker be here this afternoon at one of the clock , and that the earl of strafford's answer may then be read and considered of . the same day in the afternoon the several articles of the further impeachment of thomas earl of strafford , by the commons , were all read ; and to every of the said articles , the particular and several answers of the said earl were likewise read . the answer held three hours reading , being above sheets of paper , too long to be here inserted ; yet take an exact abstract of the said answer to the articles exhibited against him , which are as followeth : answers to special articles . to the first article , he saith , he conceives that the commission and instruction differ not from those formerly granted , but refers to them , and that such alterations and additions as were made , were ( for ought he knoweth ) rather for the explanation than for the enlarging of the jurisdiction , the care whereof was left to the secretary of that council , and to the king 's learned council , to be passed for the good of the king's service , and the publick welfare of that province ; for legality of the proceedings , divers eminent lawyers were joyned with the president , who , for the legal parts , was by them to be directed . he did not advise or procure the enlargement of the commission and instructions , and he believeth nothing hath been practiced since , that was not in former times , contained in former commissions , under general words . he believeth sir conyers darcy was lawfully fined for misdemeanors , as a justice of peace ; and hath heard , he being in ireland , that sir iohn boucher was fined for some great abuse at the kings being at york , going into scotland to be crowned ; to the proceedings he refers himself . he denies that he hath done any thing by that commission or instruction , other than he conceived he might by virtue thereof lawfully do . to the second article , he denieth the speaking of those words , but saith , that , l. or more , being returned as issues out of the exchequer , against some that had compounded for knighthood , for l. or l. so as the issues far exceeded the composition , and yet would next time have been increased . the said earl upon this occasion said , that now they might see , that the little finger of the law was heavier than the king's loins , which he spake to nourish good affections in them towards his majesty , and not to threaten or terrifie any , as the article is supposed . to the third article , he saith , ireland is not governed by the same laws that this kingdom is , unless it be meant by the common laws , their customs , statutes , execution of martial laws , proceedings at council-board very much differ , they spake not the words in the article to any such intent ; he saith , it might be fit enough for him to remember them of the great obligation they had to the king and his progenitors , that suffered them , being a conquer'd nation , to enjoy freedom and laws , as their own people of this kingdom ; and it might be , that upon some such occasion , he said to those of dublin , that some of their charters were void , and nothing worth , and did not bind his majesty farther than he pleased , which he believes to be true , having been formerly so informed by his majesties learned council upon sundry occasions . to the fourth , he saith , that the legal and ordinary proceedings at council-table are , and time out of mind have been by petition , answers , examination of witnesses , as in other courts of justice concerning british plantations , the church and cases hence recommended by the king , for the time being , and in appeals from other courts there ; and the council-board have always punished contempts to orders there made , to proclamations , and acts of state , by fine and imprisonment . he saith , that it might be , he told the earl of cork , that he would imprison him if he disobeyed the orders of the council-table , and that he would not have lawyers dispute or question those orders , and that they should bind , but remembreth not the comparison of acts of parliament ; and he hath been so far from scorning the laws , that he hath endeavoured to maintain them ; the suit against the earl , in the castle-chamber , was concerning the possessions of the colledge of youghall , worth or l. which he had endeavoured to get , by causing of unlawful oaths to be taken , and very undue means , the matter proceeded to examination and publication of witnesses , and after , upon the earl of cork's humble suit , and payment of l. to his majesty , and his acknowledgement of his misdemeanors , obtained a pardon , and the bill and proceedings were taken of the files ; and he remembers not any suit for breach of any order made at council-table . to the fifth , he saith , the deputies and generals of the army have always executed martial law , which is necessary there ; and the army , and the members thereof , have been long time governed by printed orders , according to which , divers , by sentence of the council of war , have formerly been put to death as well in the time of peace as war. the lord mountnorris , being a captain of a company in the army , for mutinous words against the said earl , general of that army , and upon two of those ancient orders was proceeded against by a council of war , being the principal officers of the army , about twenty in number , and by them , upon clear evidence , sentenced to death , wherein the said earl was no judge , but laboured so effectually with his majesty , that he obtained the lord mountnorris's pardon , who , by that sentence , suffered no personal hurt or damage , save about two days imprisonment . and as to the other persons , he can make no answer thereunto , no particulars being described . to the sixth , he saith , the suit had depended many years in chancery , and the plaintiff complaining of that delay , the said earl , upon a petition , ( as in such cases hath been usual ) calling to him the then master of the rolls , the now lord chancellor , and the chief justice of the common pleas , upon the proofs in the chancery , decreed for the plantiff , to which he refers himself , and it may be the lord mountnorris was thereupon put out of his possession . to the seventh , he saith , his majesty being intituled to divers lands , upon an inquisition found , proclamation was made , that such as claimed by patent should come in by a day , and have their patents allowed , as if they had been found in the inquisition , and accordingly divers were allowed . the lord dillon produced his patent , which being questionable , he consented , and desired that a case might be drawn , which was drawn by counsel , and argued , and the judges delivered their opinions , but the lord dillon , nor any other , were bound thereby , or put out of possession , but might have traversed the office , or otherwise legally have proceeded , that case or opinion notwithstanding . to the eighth , he saith , that upon sir iohn gifford's petition to the king , his majesty referred it to the deputy and council of ireland , where the matter proceeding legally to a decree against the lord loftus , and upon his appeal , that decree , by his majesty and his council of england , was confirmed , to which decree and order he refers himself , believing the lord loftus was committed for disobeying that decree , and for continuance in contempt committed close prisoner . he saith , that the lord loftus having committed divers contempts , the council by warrant required him to appear at the board , and to bring the great seal with him ; which order he disobeyed , and was shortly after committed , and the great seal was delivered up by his majesties express command , and not otherwise . and an information was exhibited in the star-chamber , for grievous oppressions done by the lord loftus as chancellor , whereof he was so far from justifying , as that he submitted , desiring to be an object of his majesties mercy , and not of his justice . the earl of kildare for not performing of an award made by king iames , and of an award made in pursuance thereof , by the said earl of strafford , upon a reference from his majesty , was by the deputy and council committed , and a letter being unduly obtained , he did not thereupon enlarge him ; but upon another letter , and submission to the orders , as by the king was directed , he was enlarged . the lady hibbots , and one hoy her son , having upon a petition , answer , examination of witnesses , and other proceedings at council-board , been found to have committed foul abuses by fraud and circumvention , to have made a bargain with the petitioner hibbots , for lands of a great value , for a small sum of money , was ordered to deliver up the writing , no assurances being perfected , or money paid , and it 's like he threatned her with commitment if she obeyed not that order , but denieth that the lands were after sold to sir robert meredith to his use , or that by any order by himself made , any one hath been imprisoned concerning freeholds , but for debts and personal things , as some have been used by all his predecessors in like causes . to the ninth , he saith , warrants to such effects have been usually granted to the bishops in ireland , in the times of all former deputies ; but the earl not satisfied with the conveniency thereof , refused to give any such warrants in general to the bishops as had been formerly done ; but being informed that divers in the diocess of down gave not fitting obedience , he granted a warrant to that bishop , whereto he referreth , which was the only warrant he granted of that nature , and hearing of some complaints of the execution thereof , he recalled it . to the tenth ; he saith ; the lord treasurer portland offered the farm of the customs for l. per annum in some particular species , but the earl of strafford advanced the same customs to l. per annum , and l. fine , and by his majesties command became a farmer at those rates proposed , without addition to those rates , as by the printed books car. regis may appear ; he disswaded the advance of rates lately proposed by sir abraham dawes , so as it was declined ; the rates of hydes and wooll are moderate , consideration being had of their true value , and of the places whereto they are to be transported ; and of the statute made in the time of queen elizabeth , and there in force , prohibiting the exportation of wooll , unless they pay to the crown s. the stone ; the trade and shipping of that kingdom are exceedingly increased . to the eleventh , he saith , pipe-staves were prohibited in king iames's time , and not exported , but by licence from the lord treasurer of england , or lord-deputy of ireland , who had s. d. a , and his secretary s. d. for the licence ; but to restrain that destruction of timber , by command of his majesty , and advice of his council , for his revenue in ireland , first s. then l. the money was paid to his majesty , who hath thereby about l. per annum , and his lordship lost about or l. per annum , which his predecessors had for such licences . this is paid by the transporter , not by the natives , whose commodity nevertheless appears by the article to be very much increased . to the twelfth , he saith , the subsidies there are an inheritance in the crown by act of parliament , d. was paid for subsidy , and s. d. for impost upon every pound of tobacco , and farmed or l. per annum , the commons in parliament , car. regis , finding the revenue to be short of the expence of that kingdom l. per annum , petitioned , those grants might be applied to increase his majesties revenue , without calling upon the subject , but upon urgent occasions : hereupon upon the advice of the committee of the revenue ; and in consideration of a proclamation made in england , several proclamations were made , and this setled in a way , till it could be confirmed by parliament , for which purpose a bill is transmitted , according to the desire of the commons , and the impost of tobacco is let to contractors for eleven years , at l. per annum for the first five years , and l. per annum for the other six years , and the earl hath lent money to forward the business , and by his majesties allowance is a partner , but hath not as yet in two years last past had any accompts thereof , or made benefit thereby . he knoweth of no whipping , or other punishment ; the farmes of the customs are better than formerly , l. per annum , five parts whereof is yearly paid unto his majesty ; the prices of tobacco exceed not s. or s. d. the pound , the setling of that revenue , according to the petition of the commons , he hath not raised , or countenanced any monopolies , but opposed the same . to the thirteenth , he saith , he endeavoured to advance the manufacture of linnen rather than of woollen-cloth , which might prejudice that trade here ; he bought flax-seed in the low-countries , and sold it at the same rate to such as desired if , they making their cloaths not above a foot broad , and winding or threads from several bottoms together ; the contrary was twined , their flax formerly not above a foot , became a yard in length , and that soil is fit to bear it , and the people love such easie works ; he hath set up many looms , made much cloth , and sold it to the loss of some thousands of pounds ; but when the state saw the natives would not change their old courses for new and better , the proclamation was declined . what he did was for the publick good , and had nothing from them that was not fully paid for . to the fourteenth , he saith , he refers to the oath and proclamation , which was set forth by the said earl and council of state there , at the instance of the farmers of the customs , towards the defrauding of the king's duties being in france , whereof his majesty had five eight parts : he never heard any complain of the oath , or of any that refused to take it , and conceived it to be lawful , divers of the council approving it , being learned judges of the law , to whose judgment , for the legality , he submitted , as well in that as to other matters of like nature . to the fifteenth , he denieth what is in the article objected , but saith , that about the year . certain agents authorized in ireland , were sent into england , and offered and agreed to pay to his majesty l. in six years , towards the maintenance of his army , and a like payment of l. per annum , was after agreed , and continued for three years longer ; the assessments were made , and it was shortly after , by them and the lord faulkland then deputy , agreed in ireland , that the money should not be charged upon record , but levied by captains , by paper-assignments , upon warrants from the lord deputy ; and this course was held four years in the lord faulkland's time , and the four years wherein the lord loftus and the earl of cork were lords justices there ; and it held for the remaining year only , after the earl of strafford came thither ; but the earl of cork having spared those towns for the benefit of himself and tenants during the time of his being justice : the earl of strafford reduced the assessments to what it was made by the lord faulkland , and gave way that sir william st. leiger , lord president of munster , to take the same arrerages , in satisfaction of a debt due unto him by his majesty , and he is confident no force was used in levying the same : it hath been usual to lay souldiers to levy that contribution , to send souldiers to apprehend contemners of orders made at council-board , and the like ; and when out-laws and rebels have been in the woods , no souldiers have in his time been laid , but by the advice of the council there . touching the castle-chamber , it 's a parcel of the territory of ideough , whereto the king was intituled by inquisition , and the possession established in a legal way , when the said earl was in england , and no souldiers were sent , but only at the intreaty of mr. wanesford , for security of his houses and plantations against rebels that then were out , and burned and spoiled houses thereabouts ; and neither richard butler's , or any other family were thence expelled by the said earl from their estates . to the sixteenth , he saith , there was such a proposition which was just , to prevent clamourous complaints here , which there might be redressed , but conceives that by the laws there , and the articles known since ( by the name of the articles of grace made about fourteen years since ) none ought to depart that kingdom without licence . thereupon , the advice of the state , the proclamations were set forth , but not with such intent as in the article . he denied licence only to three , the earl of cork , the lord mount● and sir 〈◊〉 hamilton ; to the two former , in regard of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then against them in the castle-chamber ; to the other by special command from his majesty ; but so soon as sir frederick said he would complain of the earl , he made suit to his majesty , that sir fredrick might come over , which was granted ; he conceives such restraint to be necessary , and if that it be not continued , it will prove of evil consequence to that kingdom . parry was questioned at the council-board for misdemeanors , and to avoid sentence , secretly went out of the kingdom , and at his return , for that and other offences , was fined and imprisoned , to the sentence thereof he refers , and knows of no other that were imprisoned , as by the article is charged . to the seventeenth , he saith , it 's like he might say ( for the better encouragement of the officers and souldiers of the old irish army , in discharge of their several duties ) that his majesty was so well satisfied in the way and pains they took in using and practizing of their arms , that in that point he would set them as a pattern to be imitated ; and conceives it would not be ill if they were so , they being in the opinion of those that have seen them exercise , very able and expert souldiers , he spake not other words , or to other purpose . to the eighteenth , he saith , when the earl of cork was one of the lords justices , he seized some houses in dublin , pretending they belonged to jesuits and fryers , without legal proceedings , which , upon suits prosecuted at council-board , were , according to justice , restored to the owners ; but how since imployed the earl of strafford knoweth not , but endeavoured the utmost he could to maintain that seizure . touching the men , he saith , they were raised according to the king's warrant , and that the said earl left the care thereof to the earl of ormond and others , and what number are protestants , what papists , he knoweth not , but believeth such a body cannot be there raised , without many papists ; the greatest number of the captains and officers are protestants , chosen by the said earl. the men were drawn out of the old , to make officers for the new army , and believeth the put to the old army are protestants , in regard by his express order no papist is to be admitted there a common souldier . he never preferred any captain , lieutenant or ensign to be of that army that was a papist , and conceives they are duly paid ; and believes those newly raised exercise the religion no otherwise than was practiced before the earl's coming thither : he was a commissioner to compound with the recusants for their forfeitures , and endeavoured to be informed of the utmost value of their estates ; in four years he brought that revenue from l. to be between and l. per annum , more than ever was raised formerly in so short a time , by which faithful dealings , for his majesty , he procured the hard opinion of the recusants throughout the kingdom ; that out of those compositions he hath paid near l. into the exchequer ; and they had no other priviledges than what was exercised in the commission , and in former like commissions , and as are in the present commission to the lord treasurer , and others . to the nineteenth , he saith , the last summer was twelve months , when the english and scotch lay in the fields near berwick , the earl and council of ireland having a general motion thereof , were in fear that the scots in ulster ( being almost in number ) might be drawn to side with the covenanters , and advising how to secure that kingdom , the principal of the nation of scotland , living in ireland , came to dublin and petitioned , that he might have an oath whereby they might give testimony of future obedience to his majesty ; whereupon an oath was by the advice of council of state framed , and chearfully taken by those scotch gentlemen , and generally by all the nation in ireland , as the earl conceives to their advantage , and the satisfaction of others ; he believes that some were sentenced for refusing it , but none were otherwise exiled . the earl in his vote said , that he would endeavour , that all of that nation should take that oath , or leave the kingdom , all which was done by his majesties direction and approbation ; and it was not contrived to the intents in the article charged , but to prevent their adhering to the covenanters then in open arms , and not concerning the ceremony or government of the church . to the twentieth , he saith , that in the year . the earl was in ireland , when preparations were made for war , and summons sent to the nobility of this kingdom : in the year . a general was appointed , and an army drawn to the field , and encamped near berwick , whereby it appears he was not acquainted that the article of pacification had been broken on both sides , and so distempered , that it was held fit an army in england should be raised , to suppress the covenanters , if the business could not with honour and safety be otherwise composed . the said earl humbly advised his majesty to call a parliament , and used many motives thereunto ; after the parliament was called , and before the sitting thereof , ten of the lords , and other of the council for forreign affairs , being assembled , his majesty then present , an honourable person related the covenanters demands ; it was then voted by all , that they were such as might not in honour and safety be condescended unto by his majesty ; and if they could not be otherwise reduced , his majesty must be constrained to bring them to it by force ; the like resolution was after at the council-table by twenty of the council : whereupon his majesty appointed a council of war , and it was held necessary to borrow l. upon good security , till the supplies by the parliament might come in . he never said the scotch nation were rebels , but was ever perswaded that many of them are most loyal subjects . those that raised arms , when they were at such distance from his majesty , he might say they were no less than rebels and traytors ; by warrant from the lord admiral , he caused divers ships and goods to be seized , but not with an intent to set on the war , but as much as in him lay to bring all to fair accommodation , without expence of blood . to the th , he saith , the pacification was broken before he came over , as in the answer to the former article he moved his majesty for a parliament in england , but not with such intent as in the article , but out of a desire to have setled a right understanding between the king and his people . it may be , he said , ( though he remembreth it not ) that if the parliament would not supply his majesty , he would serve his majesty in any other lawful way ; being well assured that his majesty would not imploy him , nor any man else , in any other kind . to the th , he saith , according to his majesties instructions , he did set forth to the parliament of ireland , the state of the affairs as they then stood , and they freely gave four subsidies , as an acknowledgment of his goodness and happy government , as by the act and remonstrance appears in print ; he , by his majesties direction , then gave order for the raising of men , who still remain in the king's pay , and were sent into ulster to secure those parts , or to land in scotland , to divert the earl of argile , in case he joined with the covenanters army against the king ; but it was mentioned in the king's letter , . mertii , . he had purposely given out , that they should join with the king's army at berwick , to colour other designs ; but the true cause of their levying was made known to be as aforesaid unto the earl of ormond , sir iohn burlace , and the marquiss of hamilton , and earl of northumberland , at the time of the writing the letter , and he denies the words charged in the articles , or any other words to such intent and purpose . to the th , he saith , the matters of the parliament were no otherwise referred to him , than to the rest of the council , that coming sick from ireland about ten days after the parliament were set , and after the treaty with the earl of dunfermline , lord lowdon , scotch commissioners , was broken off , and the army preparing , and the parliament not supplying monies as his majesty desired ; his majesty advised what might move them to prefer his supply ; in debate whereof , he humbly advised his majesty , by a message to the house , to lay down ship-money , and promise never to demand it , and give way to reverse the judgment by a writ of error in parliament , and to promise a redress of grievances when they should be prepared . and secondly , that they would presently agree upon such supply as should maintain his army , for reducing the scots to their obedience , wherein their safety and his honour was concerned : his majesty assented conditionally , that he might have subsidies ; the earl besought him that it might not pass as a condition , but to relinquish ship-money , and put himself upon their affections , and drew up the message in writing , and delivered it to mr. secretary vane to deliver to the house of commons : he desired to know if his majesty would not take less than , his majesty answered , he feared less would not serve his occasions ; the earl of strafford besought his majesty to accept of eight , so his majesty assented , and desired mr. secretary to signifie so much , as occasion should be offered ; but whether he did so or not the said earl knoweth not . the house of commons being in debate two days , and not resolving . his majesty about the th of may last called a council at seven of the clock in the morning , the said earl being sick , came late , and was told , ( as he remembreth ) by the earl of bark-shire , the king had declared his resolution to dissolve the parliament ; the earl of strafford besought his majesty to hear the advice of his council , and first of those that were members of the house of commons , by whom the rest might the better be guided : mr. secretary windebank said , he feared the house would first be answered of their grievances , and voted for a breach of the parliament . mr. secretary vane , in opposite terms , said , that there was no hope that they would give the king a penny , and therefore absolutely voted for a breach . and the earl of strafford conceiving his majesties pleasure to have accepted eight subsidies , had been delivered to the house of commons by mr. secretary vane , did , in his majesties turn , deliver his vote for breach of the parliament , which otherwise he would not have done ; it being contrary to what he resolved when he came thither , and like opinion was delivered by the rest of the lords , being about twenty , except two or three at the most . the parliament being dissolved , his majesty desired advice of his council , how money might be raised , affirming , that the scotch army was ready to enter into the kingdom ; the said earl , in presence of others in the council , delivered his opinion , that in a case of absolute and unavoidable necessity , which neither would nor could be prevented by ordinary remedies , provided by the laws , nor all his majesties other means sufficient to defend the common wealth himself , or their lives and estates from an enemy , without force of arms , either actually entred , or daily expected to invade the realm ; he conceived that his majesty was absolved from ordinary rules , and might use ( in as moderate a way the necessity of the cause would permit ) all ways and means for defence of himself and kingdom , for that he conceived in such extremity , salus populi was suprema lex , provided it were not colourable , nor any thing demanded imployed to other use , nor drawn into example , when law and justice might take place ; and that when peace was setled , reparation was to be given to particular men , otherwise it would be unjust . this was not officiously declared but in council , forced by the duty of the oath of a counsellor , which is , that he shall in all things to be moved , treated and debated in council , faithfully and truly declare his mind and opinion according to his heart and conscience ; which oath the said earl took , and humbly prays their lordships consideration thereof ; he denieth the words in the article , or any words to the intent thereby expressed . to the th , he saith , he delivered his opinion with such cautions and restrictions , as in the answer to the precedent article , and is well assured his discourse at all times hath been without ill intentions to either of the houses of parliament , which he ever did , and shall think and speak of with all reverence . he denies that he knew of the publishing or printing of the book , nor who caused it to be printed or published , for at that time he was sick in his bed , more like to die than to live . to the th , he saith , ship-money was levied , and adjudged to be due , before his coming over . sheriffs were then called up as before , and not otherwise . if any were sued in star-chamber , it was without any particular indeavour of his : it appearing at the board , that the mayor and sheriffs of london had been slow in collecting ship-money , he said , they were but ministerial , and ought to exact , and not dispute the king's writs , and that if through their remisness the king should be less able to provide for the publick safety , when any forreign army was ready to enter the kingdom , they might deserve to be fined and ransomed ; which he spake more to hasten them , than of purpose to advise any such prosecution ; but denies the other words , being , under favour , such expressions as he is not accustomed unto . to the th , he saith , he advised not either of those projects ( being then sick in bed ) but it being debated at the council-table , whether it were better for the king to raise gold and silver , or coin base money ? he ( for the reasons then given ) delivered his opinion for the latter . sundry merchants adventurers coming to his house , desired him to move his majesty , then at oatlands , to release the bullion , or money , he told them , he knew of no such thing , and would not meddle with it ; nor would his health permit him to go abroad , and said , that if their denying the king in such a publick danger , the loan of l. upon good security , the king were constrained , for the preservation of the land , to stay the bullion , they might thank themselves ; and the city receiving so great a benefit by residing amongst them , they made but an unthankful acknowledgment in such a straight , to refuse the loan of that sum. the officers of the mint came to the council-board , and the earl then shewed a letter , he received from the earl of leicester , wherein was related , that the cardinal had appointed commissioners to go into the merchants houses at paris , to peruse their shop books and accompts , and to cess every man , according to his ability , towards the payment of the king's army , and then said , that it was but just for us here in england , to bless god for being under a king which could not think upon such a pressing upon the people . but the words in the article , or words to any such intent , he did not speak , and cannot sufficiently bemoan himself to have been in all his words so ill understood , or so untruly reported as he hath been . to the th , he saith , he perswaded the gentry of that country , to allow the trained-band a months pay , which they yielded , and his majesty graciously accepted . it was by council of war ( his majesty being present ) thought fit the trained-bands should return , save the two regiments under the command of sir william pennyman and sir thomas danby . it was assented unto by his majesty , and the great council of the peers then assembled , that those spared should contribute , and the said earl was commanded by them to see it done ; which was done accordingly by warrants from him and from his deputy-lieutenants , which was much less charge to the countries than otherwise , and denies the other particular in the article mentioned . to the th , he saith , he was lieutenant-general to the earl of northumberland , about the th of august , of or foot and horse , being at new-castle under the command of the lord conway and sir iacob ashley , and the rest of the army at york ; the said earl went from london , and the th of august , notwithstanding his extream weakness , and came to york , and having received a letter from sir iacob ashley , that new-castle was fortified , and that they must be infamous beasts to lose it , and that it was fully secured ; and being acquainted with several dispatches sent by mr. secretary vane , by his majesties directions , to the lord conway , general of the horse , to oppose the passage of the scots over the river of tyne , the one dated . augusti , the other . augusti , another . augusti , another . augusti , the substance of which letters are particularly mentioned in the answer to this article , and to the same letters the said earl referreth himself . the said earl , upon sight of this and sir iacob ashley's letter , had reason to believe , that all fitting preparation was made , and then understanding that if the scotish army should pass the river , not only new-castle altogether unfortified on the south part , would be lost , but the said army of foot and horse endangered ; and hearing that the scotish army were distresied for want of victuals , and knowing the advantage that was in opposing the passage of such a river . hereupon the said earl , by a letter dated the th of august , advised the lord conway with all the horse , and at least foot , and all the cannon , to march and fight with them ; upon the passage of the river , at which time the said earl had no charge of the army ; but the truth is , the lord conway having not with him all the horse , and not above foot , and only some part of the cannon was in a posture to fight , for the passage before the said letter of advice came , which he received not half an hour before the fight began , and proceeded according to his own judgment , and his majesties said general direction ; and afterwards , that is about the th of august , and not before , the said earl took upon him the charge of the army at darlington , and brought it to york to be supplied with necessaries that they wanted , and purposed to have staid where they were quartered . but hearing from many hands that there was a purpose to question him in parliament , and his majesty having given him liberty of staying there , or coming away , he left the charge of the army with the lord conway , and other officers , as his majesty had directed , and came to london on monday the th , and the th of november was put under restraint , and so hath ever since remained . and saith , that the town of new-castle was no way under his care ; and as to other matters whereto by law he ought to answer , and hath not answered , he saith , he is not guilty of them , or any of them , in such manner and form , as in the said article is expressed , and humbly prayeth a convenient time for making his proofs , and to justifie and maintain his actions in ireland , by sight of his majesties warrants , records , and witnesses in that kingdom , and that if any mistake be in this answer , it may be amended . and this the said earl hopeth , that upon equal construction of his words and actions , he shall appear free from any great and hainous offences wherewith he is charged ; and howsoever it shall please god to dispose of him , he shall ever pray , that by their lordships great wisdoms and prudence , the affections of his majesty , and duty of his subjects , may this parliament be so surely knit together , as may by god's blessing lastingly tend to the prosperity and flourishing estate both of king and people . friday , february th , . ordered , that the same committee that was formerly appointed to draw up the charge against the earl of strafford , with the addition of mr. palmer , mr. selden , mr. whitlock , and mr. maynard , do consider of the articles and further impeachmment of thomas earl of strafford by the commons ; and likewise the said earl's answer to those articles and further impeachment . and they are likewise to consider of the proofs , and how the witnesses may conveniently be brought together , to give their testimony viva voce in the business ; and they are to proceed in the secretest and speediest way they can , for the advantage of the business , in preparing it for a trial and further proceedings ; and they have power to send for persons , witnesses , papers , records , or any thing else , that they in their judgments shall conceive fit , or may conduce to the service ; and they are to meet this afternoon at two of the clock in the treasury chamber . the four lawyers that were added to the earl of strafford's committee , made their protestation of secrecy openly in the house . sir george wentworth , upon his protestation made to the house to keep secret all such matters as passed this day , had leave to resort to his brother the earl of strafford , but all the other members of this house are restrained from resorting unto him , without leave first obtained . saturday , february th , . mr. whitlock reports from the committee for the earl of strafford . the house does declare , that they are well satisfied , that the evidence to be produced against thomas earl of strafford at his trial be managed by those members . friday , march th , . upon mr. whitlock's report from the earl of strafford's committee , it was resolved upon the question , that there shall be no replication put 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 but that the further proceedings shall be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as is now 〈◊〉 by the committee . mr. whitlock is to go up to the lords with this message , viz. that the house of commons have considered of the earl of strafford's answer , and do aver their charge of high treason against him , and that he is guilty in such manner and form as he stands accused and impeached , and that this house will be ready to prove their charge against him , at such convenient time as their lordships shall prefix , and intend to manage the evidence by members of their own , and desire a free conference with their lordships , by select committees of both houses , to consider of some propositions and circumstances concerning the trial. mr. whitlock brings answer from the lords , that their lordships have taken the message from this house into consideration , and will give a meeting , for a free conference , by a committee of on monday morning at nine of the clock . the committee of the commons . mr. pym , mr. strode , mr. solicitor , mr. grimston , lord digby , sir iohn clotworthy , sir walter earle , mr. hampden , mr. whitlocke , mr. palmer , mr. selden , mr. maynard , mr. treasurer , sir io. culpepper , mr. reynolds , mr. hyde , mr. prideaux , mr. whitlock , mr. martin , mr. proxholm , mr. gray , lord faulkland , mr. vaughan , lord russell , sir iohn strangwaies , mr. bellasis , sir guy palmes , mr. sutton , mr. whistler , sir symon d'ewes , sir an. irby , sir martin lomly , mr. waller , mr. coventry , mr. upton , sir iohn eveling , lord fairfax , sir william massam , mr. pierepoint , sir benjamin rudyard , sir thomas barrington , sir philip stapleton , mr. capell , mr. cary , sir ralph hopton , sir robert hatton , sir gilbert gerrard , mr. nathaniel fines . a committee of these are to meet a committee of of the lords at a free conference , concerning the trial of thomas earl of strafford , on monday morning next , at nine of the clock in the painted-chamber the committee for the earl of strafford are to manage this free conference with the lords . monday , march th , . upon mr. whitlock's report from the committee for the earl of strafford , the heads of a conference appointed to be had this day concerning the trial of the said earl. it was resolved upon the question : ( . ) to propose to the lords , that they will be pleased to take some order , that there may be a convenient place appointed for the trial of thomas earl of strafford , and to give such directions as shall be fit for preparing conveniency of room for both houses , and for such members of the house as are appointed to manage the evidence , and for witnesses , and for the prisoner ; and for excluding of all such as ought not to be present at the trial. ( . ) that whereas , in the last message to the lords , this house did intimate unto them , that they did intend to manage the evidence by members of their own ; they are now commanded to explain their reason , that their lordships may take notice , that we do not expect any council shall be admitted the earl of strafford at the giving of evidence at the trial. thursday , march th , . mr. whitlock reports from the free conference , concerning the trial of thomas earl of strafford , that the lord privy-seal began with this introduction ; that this parliament , both houses , have had often conferences , and to good purpose , which had preserved a true understanding between both houses , that at the last free conference their lordships did receive from this house certain propositions , concerning the trial of thomas earl of strafford , which we our selves call circumstances . ( . ) concerning place . ( . ) persons . ( . ) managing the evidence . ( . ) use of counsel ; he was pleased to remember the words of the proposition , as they were delivered unto them , and told us those were circumstances ; yet circumstances were servants to execution , and might be altered ; and if they should change from the house they now sit in into the painted-chamber , or the court of requests , upon survey of it , by skilful men , they were informed the floor of it is so weak , that it might be very dangerous for so great a resort to be in together at the trial , therefore left that to our further consideration . the lords thought of this , that the bar in their house might be removed higher , and the room there made longer ; and that being made a scaffold , might be a capacity sufficient to receive the members of this house ; this he did only propose , and said , the bishops did desire to be absent at this trial , so there would be more room , for the earls would sit in their places . next that , their lordships did desire to understand , whether we meant to be there as a house , which they thought we did , or as single members of the house . ( . ) his lordship was pleased to tell us , they desired an exposition of the words managing of evidence : whether we intended a marshalling and applying of the proof ? ( . ) that the lords did desire , concerning the place and persons , to know how they have been admitted in former times , that they might be fortified by presidents for place and persons , and for counsel . their lordships are careful not to admit of more than is according to the law of this kingdom : and thereupon their lordships have made this resolution , that the earl of strafford , in matters of meer fact , shall not make use of counsel , but in matter of law he shall ; and if any doubt arise , what is matter of law , and what is matter of fact , the lords do reserve the judgment hereof to themselves ; this came by intimation of ours , that we did intend to manage the evidence ; and at a conference we explained our selves , that we did not expect they would allow him any council at the giving of evidence . after this he was pleased to tell us , that he had not forgot another thing , though he omitted it , that he that delivered the proposition , at the message , used words to this purpose , that this house did hold it necessary and fit , that all the members of the house might be present at the trial , to the end , every one might satisfie his own conscience , in the giving of their vote , to demand judgment . upon this we thought it not fit to make an explanation , till we had acquainted the house with it . ordered , that the whole matter of the report , now made of the free conference with the lords , concerning the trial of tho. earl of strafford , be referred to the committee for the earl of strafford , to search and consider of presidents , and to prepare reasons , and to present them to the house to morrow morning , and they are to meet this afternoon at two of the clock in the treasury-chamber . a message from the lords , to desire a free conference by the same committee that last met , touching the demands concerning the trial of thomas earl of strafford in the painted-chamber presently , if it may stand with the conveniency of this house . answer returned by the same messengers , that this house has taken their lordships message into consideration , and will give a meeting presently by the same committee , as is desired . the committee , for the earl of strafford , are appointed to manage and report this conference . friday , march th , . mr. whitlock reports from the earl of strafford's committee such heads , as that committee does present unto this house to be the heads of a free conference , to be desired with the lords concerning the matter of the last free conference with the lords , touching the trial of thomas earl of strafford . upon this report , it was resolved upon the question , that this shall be the first head of the free conference , viz. . as concerning place , that this house doth conceive , that although the bar of the lord's house be removed , and some members thereof absent ; yet without the bar , the room will not be sufficient to contain the members of the house of commons , and that their lordships will be pleased to direct some other place for the trial. for the presidents concerning the place , their lordships take notice in their conference , that the parliament sate in the chamber blank , r. . but the parliament being summoned to appear at the king's palace at westminster , if one room be not convenient , another room might be desired that shall be more convenient . resolved upon the question , that this shall be the second head of the free conference , viz. ( . ) that the earl of strafford , being impeached by the commons , it doth belong to the house of commons to resolve who are to be present at the trial , and that of right they may come as a house , if they please , but however they are resolved to send their own members as a committee of the whole house . resolved upon the question , that this shall be the third head of that free conference , viz. ( . ) that by the managing of the evidence , this house doth mean the ordering , applying , and inforcing the evidence , according to the truth of the fact. ordered , that the fourth head of this report now made from the committee , of the earl of strafford , concerning the matter of council , be recommitted to the same committee , with the addition of the lawyers of the house as was yesterday made ; and they are likewise to take into consideration , what those gentlemen have incurred that have been of council with the earl of strafford , he being accused of high treason by this house , in the name of themselves , and of all the commons of england ; and to present to this house what they think is fit to be done in that business , and mr. peirepoint and mr. martin are added to this committee as to this business , and they are to meet this afternoon at two of the clock in the treasury-chamber . saturday , march th , . mr. peirepoint is appointed to go to the lords , to desire a free conference by the same committee that was last appointed for the free conference , touching the trial of thomas earl of strafford . mr. whitlock reports from the committee for the earl of strafford , that the house had heard part of this report the other day , viz. ( . ) the place of trial. ( . ) the persons to be present . ( . ) the managing of the evidence ; these three passed their vote yesterday . the fourth head concerning counsel was recommitted , which received this resolution , that the commons do acquaint their lordships , that if at any time , during the evidence , the counsel for the earl of strafford shall interpose , when the members of this house , that are appointed to manage the evidence , are speaking , they must of necessity desist , because it will not become them to plead against counsel ; and as concerning the allowing of counsel in matters of law , and reserving to their lordships to judge the doubts , what is matter of law , and what fact ; the commons do save to themselves all right that doth appertain to them , according to law and course of parliament , and do declare , that the proceedings in this case shall not be drawn into president , to the prejudice of the commons . for the other matter , concerning the offence of the counsel of the earl of strafford , by being of counsel with him , without leave of this house ; the committee could not proceed , the other matter taking up the whole time . the committee , for the earl of strafford , are to manage this conference . mr. whitlock acquaints the house , that according to the command of this house , he had delivered unto the lords the votes that had passed here , concerning the trial of thomas earl of strafford . a message from the lords , desiring a free conference by the same committee , touching the demands concerning the earl of strafford presently in the painted-chamber , if it may stand with the conveniency of this house . answer returned by the same messengers , that this house has taken their lordships message into consideration , and will give a meeting presently , as is desired . the same committee is to manage and report this conference . mr. whitlock reports from the free conference , touching the demands concerning the trial of the earl of strafford , that the lord of bath was pleased to declare , in the name of the lords , that the house had taken into consideration those demands made this morning , and agreed upon an answer to every one of them . ( first , ) as to the place , they had agreed , it should be in westminster-hall , and the king to be made acquainted with it by the lord great chamberlain . ( secondly , ) for persons , their lordships agreed to it , that the house of commons be present as a committee of the whole house for this time , with a saving of the right of the lords house , either according to law or parliamentary proceedings ; and that this shall not be drawn into president hereafter on either side . for the ( third , ) for the managing of our evidence , they grant it wholly . for the ( fourth , ) for counsel in managing and forcing of evidence ; the counsel of the earl of strafford is not to speak nor interrupt the matter of the house of commons until all the evidence is finished ; and the counsel is not to stand at the bar , but in some convenient place where they may hear ; and that they may speak for matter of law , but not for matter of fact , and that not unless their lordships shall see fitting . ( next , ) for the time , my lord of bath did tell us , they could not yet resolve upon it , till the surveyor and workmen , that did take care to build the scaffolds , did give account how soon they could be ready . ordered , that it be referred to the committee for the earl of strafford , with the addition made to the committee for this purpose , to consider of the saving , and the other part of the report now made from the free conference , concerning the trial of thomas earl of strafford , and they are to present to the house what they think fit to be done thereupon . monday , march th , . a message from the lords , that the house of peers desire a conference concerning the time of the earl of strafford's trial , and some other circumstances that concern that trial ; they desire it presently in the painted-chamber , if it may stand with the conveniency of this house by the same former committee . answer returned by the same messengers , that this house has taken their lordships message into consideration , and will give a meeting presently , as is desired by the same committee . mr. whitlock reports the conference had with the lords , concerning the trial of the earl of strafford , in haec verba , that the lord of bath did tell us , that he had something to acquaint us from the lords , that their lordships had ordered , that the place for the trial of the earl of strafford shall be in westminster-hall ; that the king hath been acquainted therewith , and hath been pleased to assent thereunto : that the time for the said trial shall begin on monday next at nine of the clock in the forenoon ; and that against that time care is taken that all things shall be prepared and made ready ; and that the lords will be pleased to give notice of the time appointed for this trial to the earl of strafford to attend accordingly ; and a warrant is to be directed to the lieutenant of the tower , to bring the said earl of strafford at the time and to the place aforesaid . after this the earl of essex told us , the lords did take into consideration something alledged in the earl of strafford's answer to the article , wherein the peers , that were of the great council , had some aspersion cast upon them , that they had entred this protestation . whereas the lords of the great council at york , to clear their honours only , have made their protestation , that they did neither command nor approve the raising of monies in york-shire , as is alledged by the earl of strafford in his answer to the th article . now the said protestation is by this house unanimously admitted . and it is likewise ordered , that so much may be intimated to the committee of the house of commons at the next conference . moved , that the committee for the earl of strafford do consider of the last part of the report now made , concerning the protestation made by the lords of the great council at york , how far they may make use of it in the evidence at the trial of the earl of strafford . ordered , that the committee for the earl of strafford consider of the last part of the report of the commitee , concerning the protestation made by the lords of the great council at york , how far they may think fit to make use of it as evidence at the trial. tuesday , march th , . mr. whitlock reports from the committee for the earl of strafford , that whereas the house of commons have formerly declared to their lordships , that the earl of strafford being impeached by them , they do conceive it doth belong to them to resolve , in what manner they will be present at his trial ; and that of right they may come as a house if they please ; but for some special reasons , upon this occasion , they are resolved to send their own members as a committee of the whole house , authorized by the house to be present at the trial to hear , and some particular persons of themselves to manage the evidence . the house of commons doth still continue their resolution in every part thereof and therein , and in the matter of allowing counsel : and their lordships reservation to their judgment what is matter of fact , and what not , the house of commons do save to themselves , as they have formerly done , all rights that do appertain to them , according to law , and the course of parliament ; and do declare , that the proceedings in this case shall not be drawn into president , to the prejudice of the commons . ordered , that this protestation be by way of conference transferred to the lords . wednesday , march th , . ordered , that mr. pym shall make report of three especial cases that concern the earl of strafford's business on friday morning next . thursday , march th , . ordered , that the earl of strafford's committee of twelve do attend that service , and lay aside all other excuses and occasions , unless they be otherwise commanded by this house , and mr. glyn is added to this committee . friday , march th , . ordered , that a warrant under mr. speaker's hand , be directed to the master of the marshalsey , of the kings bench , requiring him to send robert coyne ( a prisoner there upon execution in safe custody ) to attend the committee for the earl of strafford de die in diem , so long as the committee shall so require . ordered , that patrick allen , an irish merchant , who has a petition depending here , shall have the liberty to go abroad with a keeper to prosecute his business here , and to be examined as a witness at the committee for the earl of strafford . sir thomas barrington , sir iohn culpepper , sir io. strangwayes , mr. ashburnham , sir io. hotham , sir william litton , sir io. holland , sir robert pye , mr. wheeler , mr. lawrence , and mr. whittaker , are appointed as a committee to view the place for the earl of strafford's trial , and to think of some convenient manner for the committee of the house to go in , and be present at the said trial ; and for mr. speaker to be there in a private manner , and they are to meet this afternoon at two of the clock in the inner court of wards . saturday , march th , . ordered , that the earl of strafford's committee of shall have power to manage the evidence in such manner , as they shall think fit to manage the same at the trial of the earl of strafford . ordered , that mr. white and mr. prideaux be appointed to take notes of the passages of the trial of thomas earl of strafford , and to report them to the house , if occasion be ; and that the committee shall have power , if occasion be , to make use of two more , such as they shall think fit , though not of the house . moved from the earl of strafford's committee , that it would please the house to give a fair and candid interpretation of the committees labours and endeavours in this business . upon sir iohn culpepper's report from the committee appointed to view the place , and to regulate the order and the manner of the committee of the houses coming and being there : it was ordered , ( . ) that the members of the commons shall sit together , without any intermixture of others , in that place which is prepared for them . ( . ) that in respect of the inconveniency of it , the members shall not come to meet at the house on monday morning , but come directly to the place of the trial. ( . ) that for the well-ordering of the business , the said committee , with the addition of mr. peard , shall be present at the several doors at the entrance of the place appointed , for the members of the house by six of the clock , and are directed and required by the house to admit none but such as shall bring tickets of their names and the places for which they serve ; and that none of the members of the house shall be admitted to come in before those that are appointed to attend at the doors shall come ; and if any , either stranger or member of the house , shall offend this order , those who are appointed to attend this service shall report it to the house . and it is further ordered , that all of the house shall be there by eight of the clock at the farthest ; and that such places shall be reserved for them , who shall attend this service , as they shall find to be most proper and convenient for them . ( . ) ordered , that the serjeant at arms shall attend within the court , and his men without , to be imployed in such service as they who manage the evidence shall appoint . sir iohn culpepper further reported , that the speaker might be present in some private place , and as a particular member of this house ; but the committee doth not think fit that the house should declare any order in it . touching the members of the house being covered at the trial , the committee thinks it not fit for them to deliver any opinion , only they offer the difference that may be when both houses meet , or committees of both houses , and the present case , where the lords are to meet as a house , and the commons as a committee of their house . resolved upon the question , that the house shall sit this afternoon , and shall meet at two of the clock . mr. bellasis went up to the lords with this message , to desire their lordships , that in regard this house is much straitned in time , and hath great affairs in hand , and will sit this afternoon , and may have occasion of a conference with their lordships , that they will be pleased to sit likewise . the humble petition of thomas earl of strafford was this day read , wherein he desires , that he may make use of some members of this house , nominated in his petition , as witnesses at his trial ; and the house leaves those members , nominated in the said petition , to do therein as they shall please , without their giving any offence to the house . mr. martin is to go up to the lords , to desire a free conference with their lordships by the same committee that was formerly appointed , touching the matter of the last free conference concerning the trial of the earl of strafford . ordered , that those members of the house , that are appointed to manage the evidence at the trial of the earl of strafford , shall have power , if any witnesses be produced for the earl , to ask if they have been sworn , and if it shall appear that they have been sworn ; or if any shall be sworn at the bar , to forbear to proceed any further in the managing of their evidence , until they have resorted unto the house , and have received further order . all the orders that concern the proceedings against the earl of strafford are required to be copied out , for the service of the committee . the names of the members of the house of commons , appointed to manage the evidence against thomas earl of strafford at his trial before the house of peers , upon an impeachment of high treason . george lord digby . iohn hampden , esquires . iohn pym , oliver st. iohn , esq shortly after solicitor-general to king charles the first . sir walter earle , knight . ieoffery palmer , afterwards knighted , and made attorney-general to king charles the second . iohn maynard , esq afterwards serjeant at law to king charles the second . iohn glyn , esq recorder of london , afterwards sworn one of the council to king charles the second . the place for the appearance of the lord lieutenant was the great hall in westminster , where there was a throne erected for the king , on each side whereof a cabinet , inclosed about with boards , and before with arras : before that were the seats for the lords of the upper-house , and sacks of wooll for the judges , before them ten stages of seats extending farther than the midst of the hall , for the gentlemen of the house of commons ; at the end of all was a desk closed about and set apart for the lord lieutenant and his counsel . on monday morning , march . about seven of the clock , he came from the tower , accompanied with six barges , wherein were one hundred souldiers of the tower , all with partizans , for his guard , and fifty pair of oars : at his landing at westminster , there he was attended with two hundred of the trained band , and went in guarded by them into the hall. the entries at whitehall , kingstreet and westminster , were guarded by the constables and watch-men , from four of the clock in the morning , to keep away all base and idle persons . the king , queen , and prince came to the house about nine of the clock , but kept themselves private within their closets , only the prince came out once or twice to the cloth of state ; so that the king saw and heard all that passed , but was seen of none . some give the reason of this from the received practise of england in such cases : others say , that the lords did intreat the king , either to be absent , or to be there privately , lest pretentions might be made hereafter , that his being there was either to threaten , or some other ways to interrupt the course of justice . a third sort , that the king was not willing to be accessary to the process , till it came to his part ; but rather chose to be present , that he might observe and understand if any violence , rigour , or injustice happened . when the lieutenant entred the hall , the porter of the hall ( whose office it is ) asked master maxwell , whether the ax should be carried before him or no ? who did answer , that the king had expresly forbidden it ; nor was it the custom of england to use that ceremony , but only when the party accused was to be put upon his jury . those of the house of lords did sit with their heads covered , those of the house of commons uncovered . the bishops upon the saturday before did voluntarily decline the giving of their suffrages in matters criminal , and of that nature , according to the provision of the cannon law , and practice of the kingdom to this day , and therefore would not be present ; yet withall they gave in a protestation , that their absence should not prejudice them of that , or any other priviledge competent to them , as the lords spiritual in parliament , which was accepted . the earl of arundel , as lord high steward of england , sate apart by himself , and at the lieutenant's entry , commanded the house to proceed . master pym being speaker of the committee for his accusation , gave in the same articles , which were presented at his last being before the upper house , which being read , his replies were subjoyned and read also , the very same which were presented before in the upper house : some gave the reason of this , because the house of commons had not heard those accusations in publick before . others , that the formality of the process required no less , however that day was spent in that exercise . the queen went from the house about eleven of the clock , the king and prince staid till the meeting was dissolved , which was after two. the lieutenant was sent to the tower by his guard , and appointed to return upon tuesday at nine of the clock in the morning . the crowd of people was neither great nor troublesome , all of them saluted him , and he them , with great humility and courtesie , [ both at his entrance and at his return , ] therefore let fame pretend what it please about the malice and discontent of the multitude , that if he pass the stroke of iustice , they will tear him in pieces ; yet there is more in rumor than in sight and appearance ; and in this report , as in all others of this nature , more is thrust upon the vulgar ( who seem as well fearful of punishment , as exempt from it , for all their great number ) than they did justly deserve at this time . monday , march . . post merid. the house of commons spent the forenoon in the first days trial of thomas earl of strafford in westminster-hall : but in the afternoon the house ordered , that in case the earl of strafford shall ask leave , or shall have liberty given him to speak any thing by way of defence , before such time as the members appointed to manage the evidence , shall enter into the managing of their evidence , that then they shall interpose ; and if so be that notwithstanding such interposition , the lords shall give him leave so to speak , that then they shall forbear to proceed any further in the managing of their evidence , until they have reported unto the house , and received further order from them . ordered , that the house shall meet to morrow in westminster-hall as a committee ; and that the house sit to morrow in the afternoon at two of the clock . ordered , that the committee formerly appointed shall attend at the doors , at the entrance of the place prepared for the committee of the house of commons , at the trial of thomas earl of strafford . tuesday , march . . post merid. sir philip stapleton went up to the lords with this message , to desire a free conference by a committee of both houses , concerning their joyning with this house to petition his majesty , to disband the new-levied irish army , disarming the papists recusants , and the removal of papists from court ; especially those formerly named , viz. mr. walter montague , sir kenelme digby , sir iohn winter , and sir toby mathew . sir walter earle and mr. reynolds are to manage this conference , and are to move the lords , to appoint a petition to his majesty , and are to inforce their desire of removing the papists from court by that circumstance of mr. walter montagues appearing yesterday , before both houses , at the trial of the earl of strafford . ordered , that the house meet as a committee in westminster-hall at eight of the clock , and in the house at two in the afternoon , which they are constantly to observe de die in diem during the trial. the house does expect that all the members of the house should conform themselves to the order made for regulating matters at the trial of thomas earl of strafford ; and that the committee appointed for that business shall complain of any that conform not thereunto . wednesday , march th , . post merid. ordered , that mr. treasurer and mr. comptroller move his majesty , that the committees for the earl of strafford may have the perusal of sir edward cook 's pleas of the crown . ordered , that no member of the house shall stand in the place appointed for the earl of strafford's witnesses , at the time of his trial , unless they be such as by the said earl be required to be there as witnesses . ordered , that sir henry mildmay move the lord high chamberlain , that the door at the entrance in at the room , appointed for those that manage the evidence at the trial of thomas earl of strafford , be kept shut , and that there be some other passage for the members to come into the house at , and captain charles price is added to the committee appointed to regulate matters at the trial of thomas earl of strafford . ordered , that no member of the house confer with the earl of strafford during the time of the trial. thursday , march th , . post merid. ordered , that the committee appointed to manage the evidence at the trial of thomas earl of strafford , shall have liberty to proceed upon such articles , as they shall think most important for the speediest expediting of the trial , and to contract and proceed in such manner as they shall think most expedient . ordered , that the committee for the earl of strafford presently withdraw into the court of wards , to prepare heads for a conference , to be desired with the lords , concerning the preventing of all delays in the speedier expediting the trial of thomas earl of strafford . sir iohn culpepper reports from the committee that was appointed to draw heads for a conference to be desired with the lords , concerning the preventing of all delays in the trial of the earl of strafford , to this purpose : to represent to the lords the necessity of expediting the earl of strafford's trial , in respect of the pressing occasions of both houses , and of the estate of the whole kingdom , which will be much interrupted and prejudiced by the protraction of this trial : in this consideration the house of commons desired their lordships , that they would be pleased to prevent all unnecessary delays which may be occasioned by the earl of strafford's impertinent exceptions , which as they will take up much time in debate , so they may occasion frequent adjournments , the which we desire their lordships to take into consideration , that they may be avoided . resolved upon the question , that this shall be the subject of the conference . sir io. eveling went up to the lords , to desire a conference concerning the trial of the earl of strafford ; and sir io. culpepper is appointed to manage this conference . monday , march th , . post merid. sir thomas barington is appointed to go up to the lords , to desire a conference by a committee of both houses , concerning the trial of thomas earl of strafford . this house doth conceive , that the examination of the lord primate of ireland , already taken , is not to be urged , in regard none of the members of this house were present at the taking of it , but the examination of him ( provided ) that some of the committee appointed to manage the evidence at the trial be present thereat , this house will not oppose it , saving their own rights ; and in like cases the house leaves it to the committee to proceed in such manner as they shall think agreeable to law and justice . and this to be the subject matter of the conference , and mr. whitlock is to manage it . friday , april . . post merid. mr. pym went up to the lords , to desire , that such of their lordships as this house shall have occasion to make use of , in the trial of the earl of strafford , would be pleased to be present at the said trial , and by name the lord treasurer , lord admiral , earl of bristoll , earl of holland , and lord conway , be also named to the house , with some other lords that the house should have occasion to make use of ; namely , the lord primate of armagh , e. morton , and lord newburgh . mr. pym likewise nominated some members of this house , viz. mr. treasurer , sir william pennyman , sir iohn hotham , sir hugh cholmly , mr. henry cholmy , mr. thomas price , sir iohn strangways , mr. controllor , mr. henry piercy , sir william envidale , sir frederick cornwallis , sir henry mildmay , mr. nichols , mr. fines , sir thomas heale , sir thomas barington , mr. herbert price ; a note of these names was given to the serjeant at arms , attending on this house ; and he is ordered to give notice to the members of the lords , to be present upon all occasions . saturday , april . . post merid. the petition of thomas earl of strafford was this day read , and the like order made upon it , as was made upon the petition of the th of march. tuesday , april th , . post merid. the humble petition of thomas earl of strafford was read , and the same order made upon it as was upon that of the th of march. friday , april th , . post merid. the lord russel is appointed to go up to the lords , to desire a conference by a committee of both houses , concerning the proceedings in the trial of thomas earl of strafford . the heads of the free conference to be to this effect : to acquaint the lords with the great necessities of the kingdom , the pressures of the time , and how much time has been spent in this trial : how prejudicial it will be to the kingdom , if any more then has been be spent , and therefore to desire that to morrow may be appointed for a peremptory day , for the earl of strafford to be heard , if he will come ; otherwise that the committee of this house may proceed to the replication to the whole matter , and the earl of strafford to be absolutely concluded , for saying any more to the matter of fact. mr. pym is to manage this conference , and mr. glyn and mr. hampden are joyned unto him as assistants . mr. pym acquaints the house , that he hath delivered to the lords what he was intrusted with by this house , concerning the trial of thomas earl of strafford . they gave no other answer , then that they would send answer by messengers of their own . a message from the lords by baron hendon and mr. heath . that the lords have taken the last message to this house into consideration , and have resolved , that if the earl of strafford come to morrow , he may proceed according to the former order ; if he comes not , that then this house may proceed to sum up the evidence as to matter of fact , and the earl of strafford to be concluded as to matter of fact. saturday , april th , . post merid. mr. glyn reports from the committee , for the earl of strafford , some grounds concerning the further evidence that is offered by the committee to corroborate the evidence upon the latter part of the . article . and thereupon sir henry vane the younger and mr. pym are appointed by this house , to declare their whole knowledge concerning the matters contained in the . article against the earl of strafford , and how , and by what means they came to the knowledge thereof , which when they had done , what paper was produced by mr. pym , and so much of it read by him as concerned the earl of strafford : and then it was resolved upon the question , that the paper whereof mr. pym had now read in part , shall be all of it read , which was done ; and notice being given of a message from the lords , it was ordered , that all the members keep their seats , and go not out of the house without leave . resolved upon the question , that the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford of high treason shall be now read . and accordingly the bill was twice read . monday , april . post merid. the heads of a conference to be desired with the lords touching the proceedings against the earl of strafford . . the narrative of the evidence the committee intended to have given on saturday last , concerning which they resorted to the house of commons for further direction , to which evidence two members of this house were ready to depose . the house fell into a great and long debate of the second head. and in the mean time mr. hampden went up to the lords with this message , to signifie unto their lordships , that this house is now in debate of a business of great importance , which they do intend to communicate unto their lordships , but are not yet fully ready for a conference ; and therefore they do intreat their lordships would be pleased to sit a little while , and they hope they shall come up very suddenly unto them . the earl of strafford's committee who retired to prepare the second head , after some stay returned and presented this following to the house for a second head , which was read and allowed of by the house , ( viz. ) . that the house having taken consideration thereof , did conceive it very material , that in regard of the danger and distractions of the present times , and that what time might be spent in debate touching the admitting of the evidence , they resolved to come to a general reply , setting aside that evidence for this time , saving to themselves their rights , to make use of the said evidence , for the farther prosecution of the . article , if their lordships shall be unsatisfied concerning the same , without admitting the said earl of strafford to examine upon any of the other articles , which the house doth do , to the end , that the business might come to some speedy conclusion , the loss of time being of extream danger and ill consequence to the common-wealth , as they conceive . mr. hampden brings answer , that the lords will sit a convenient time . . the third head , that upon occasion of discovery of this evidence , a paper was read in the house , whereby it did appear , that at the same time when the dangers abroad were spoken by the earl of strafford , touching the bringing the irish army into england , other words were spoken by two others then present , descyphered by those letters l. arch. and l. cott. ( by which we conceive is meant the lord archbishop of canterbury and lord cottington , ) very full of pernicious counsels to the king , and slander to the commons assembled in the last parliament ; as will appear , if their lordships will be pleased to hear the papers read , which paper the committee is commanded to read , and leave it to their consideration , and to desire that their lordships will take some course , that it may be duly examined by whom these words were spoken , that there may be some further proceedings , to prevent the dangers that may ensue thereupon , and that those counsels may be looked into , and searched to the bottom . these three heads were all severally put to the question , and by resolution upon the question , ordered to be the heads of this conference . mr. stroud went up to the lords with this message , to desire a conference with their lordships , by a committee of both houses , touching the proceedings against the earl of strafford , and some other matters lately discovered . ordered , that at the next sitting of the house the bill for the attainder of the earl of strafford shall be read the second time , and mr. speaker is to put the house in mind of this order . a message from the lords by mr. heath and serjeant glanvil . the lords desire a present conference , by a committee of both houses , in the painted-chamber , if it may stand with the conveniency of this house , concerning the last conference about the proceedings against the said earl. answer returned by the same messengers , that this house has taken their lordships message into consideration , and will give a present meeting , as is desired . the committee appointed to manage the evidence at the trial , are appointed reporters of this conference . mr. glyn reports the conference with the lords to this purpose : that the lord steward spake in the name of the lords , and did declare , that their lordships are resolved this house may proceed , as formerly was intended , before the offer of further evidence to be propounded , the earl of strafford to recollect his evidence first , and that being done , the members of the house of commons to state their evidence , and this to be done to morrow morning , whereof they will give the earl of strafford notice . tuesday , april th , . post merid. the house only met and adjourned till the next morning . wednesday , april th , . post merid. an act was read the second time for the attainder of thomas earl of strafford of high treason , upon the question , committed unto a committee of the whole house , mr. speaker sitting by . the order for resolving the house into a committee , to consider of the bill , for the attainder of thomas earl of strafford of high treason , was read , and accordingly the house was resolved into a committee , and mr. peard called to the chair . then mr. speaker assumed the chair . a message from the lords by judge reeves and serjeant glanvile , that their lordships have appointed to hear the council of the earl of strafford to morrow at eight of the clock in westminster-hall , concerning the matter of law. thursday , april th , . post merid. mr. arthur capel went up to the lords with a message , to desire a free conference by a committee of both houses , concerning the proceedings against thomas earl of strafford , so soon as it may stand with their lordships conveniency . mr. solicitor , mr. maynard , mr. glyn , sir iohn culpepper , mr. pym , mr. whitlock , mr. whistler , mr. stroud . as a committee are to retire presently into the committee-chamber , to prepare heads for a conference , concerning the proceedings against the earl of strafford . mr. maynard reports from this committee , the heads of the conference to be desired with the lords , concerning the proceedings against the earl of strafford , to this effect . . to offer unto their lordships , that it was last night five of the clock before this intimation of their lordships intentions , to hear the earl of strafford's council , came to this house . . that upon some conferences heretofore had with their lordships , a saving was made by this house in the point , whether counsel should be heard or not ? and it 's not now time to consider , whether they should depart from this saving . . great difficulties to know to what purpose the counsel shall be heard , the case not being stated , agreed on , or made , when to propound the danger and inconveniencies ; if his counsel make a case , and ravel into all our evidence in such an auditory ; and whether to put the case as it is alledged in the articles , that the evidence of fact being given , it was in propositions , from the beginning , to go by way of bill , and that a bill is exhibited here for his attainder . that the proceedings , by way of bill , stands in no way of opposition to those proceedings , that have already been in this business . these several considerations make more difficulty in this house , than to come to a sudden and present resolution . resolved upon the question , that these shall be the heads of this conference ; the committee appointed to prepare the heads , are likewise appointed to manage and report the conference , if occasion be . mr. maynard reports , that the earl marshall acquainted them , that he had made a report of what had been delivered by the house of commons , and they had entred into debate about it , and so soon as they had come to a resolution , they would send answer by messengers of their own . but in the mean time they had put off the hearing of the earl of strafford's counsel for this day . ordered , that the house be resolved into a committee , to debate further the bill of attainder of thomas earl of strafford . a message from the lords by judge foster and mr. heath , that the lords desire a free conference , by a committee of both houses , concerning the business of the proceedings against the earl of strafford presently , ( if it may stand with the conveniency of this house ) in the painted-chamber . answer returned by the same messengers , that this house will give a meeting presently , as is desired . the same committee that managed the conference this morning , are to manage this , and to report it , if occasion be . mr. fines is added to the committee ; if any new matter be propounded by the lords at this conference , the committee is to give no answer unto it , but to report it to the house . mr. whitlock reports this conference , that the lord say told them , that they had taken into consideration the great business , and were not absolutely resolved how it should proceed , that the earl of strafford's counsel should have notice to attend there to morrow , and should not speak to any matter of fact , but to matter of law ; only it was afterwards said by another lord , that the time was so short , that they had resolved not to send for him , till they heard from this house . friday , april th , . post merid. ordered , that the house do first take into consideration the report of the conference with the lords yesterday , concerning the proceedings against the earl of strafford . resolved upon the question , that it is sufficiently proved , that the earl of strafford hath endeavoured to subvert the ancient and fundamental laws of the realms of england and ireland , and to introduce arbitrary and tyrannical government against law. mr. peard went up to the lords with a message to this effect : that this house at present is in debate of a great business , and fear they cannot come to a resolution so soon as to come to their lordships for a conference this afternoon ; if they can , they resolve to sit this afternoon , and desire their lordships to do the like , if it may stand with their conveniency . mr. peard brings answer , that their lordships will meet at four of the clock . resolved upon the question , that a committee of the whole house shall hear the earl of strafford's counsel in westminster-hall , concerning matter of law. ordered , that the house do this afternoon take the proceedings against the earl of strafford into further consideration . the committee is to retire presently into the committee-chamber , to prepare heads for a conference to be desired with the lords , concerning the further proceedings against the earl of strafford . mr. maynard reports the heads of this conference to this effect : . to take notice of their lordships resolution , to hear the earl of strafford's council in matter of law. . to put their lordships in mind of the saving of this house in that point , and further to tell them , that if after his council shall be heard , any doubt shall remain with their lordships , they shall be ready to satisfie them in due time . . that to this end they do intend to send a committee of this house , only to hear what his council shall say . these particulars raised some debate in the house , and being put to the question , the house was divided upon it ; but yet after the tellers were appointed , the noes yielded to the yeas without telling . . to desire that their lordships will be pleased to use all expedition to put an end to this trial , as much as in justice may be . . to desire a continuance of their care , that the counsel , under colour of speaking to the matter of law , ravel not into the matter of fact. sir robert harly went up to the lords , to desire a free conference with their lordships by a committee of both houses , upon the free conference had yesterday with their lordships , concerning the further proceedings against the earl of strafford . sir robert harly brings answer , that their lordships will give a present meeting , as is desired . the committee that was appointed to prepare heads for the conference , concerning the further proceedings against the earl of strafford , are to manage this conference , and to report it , if occasion be . ordered , that the committee formerly appointed to preserve places for the committee of the whole house in westminster-hall , do apply their endeavours in that service . a message from the lords by justice foster and justice heath , that the lords have sent this message , that they will be set to morrow at ten in the forenoon in westminster-hall , to hear the earl of strafford's council in matter of law. saturday , april th , . post merid. ordered , that the house be resolved into a grand committee , to take into further consideration the bill of attainder of thomas earl of strafford . mr. speaker left the chair , mr. peard was called to the chair of the grand committee , and mr. speaker again assumed the chair . ordered , that the debate of the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford , be resumed on monday morning at seven of the clock . monday , april th , . ordered , that after the conference shall be ended , the house shall again be resolved into a committee , to resume the farther debate of the earl of strafford , and all the members are required to return from the conference to the house . resolved upon the question , that the endeavour of thomas earl of strafford to subvert the ancient and fundamental laws of the realm of england and ireland , and to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannical government , against law , in both these kingdoms , is high treason . the lord digbye's speech in the house of commons , to the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford , april . . mr. speaker , we are now upon the point of giving ( as much as in us lies ) the final sentence unto death or life on a great minister of state , and peer of this kingdom , thomas earl of strafford , a name of hatred in the present age , by his practices , and fit to be made a terrour to future ages by his punishment . i have had the honour to be imployed by the house in this great business , from the first hour that it was taken into consideration ; it was matter of great trust , ( and i will say with confidence ) that i have served the house in it both with industry , according to my ability , and with most exact faithfulness and secrecy . and as i have hitherto discharged my duty to this house , and to my country , in the progress of this great cause , so i trust i shall do now in the last period of it , to god and to a good conscience . i do wish the peace of that unto my self , and the blessings of almighty god to me and my posterity , according as my judgment on the life of this man shall be consonant with my heart , and the best of my understanding in all integrity . i know well mr. speaker , that by some things i have said of late , whilst this bill , was in agitation , i have raised some prejudices upon me in the cause . yea some ( i thank them for their plain dealing ) have been so free as to tell me , that i suffered much by the backwardness i have shewn in this bill of attainder of the earl of strafford , against whom i had been formerly so keen and so active . mr. speaker , i beg of you and the rest but a suspension of judgment concerning me , till i have opened my heart unto you freely and clearly in this business . truly sir , i am still the same in my opinions and affections , as unto the earl of strafford , i confidently believe him the most dangerous minister , the most insupportable to free subjects that can be charactared . i believe his practices in themselves have been as high , as tyrannical , as any subject ever ventured on , and the malignity of them are hugely aggravated by those rare abilities of his , whereof god hath given him the use , but the devil the application ( in a word ) i believe him still that grand apostate to the common-wealth , who must not expect to be pardoned in this world , till he be dispatched to the other . and yet let me tell you mr. speaker , my hand must not be to that dispatch , i protest , as my conscience stands informed , i had rather it were off . let me unfold unto you the mystery mr. speaker , i will not dwell much upon justifying unto you my seeming variance at this time from what i was formerly , but by putting you in mind of the difference between prosecutors and judges . how misbecoming that fervour would be in a judge , which perhaps was commendable in a prosecutor ; judges we are now , and must put on another personage . it is honest and noble to be earnest in order to the discovery of truth , but when that hath been brought as far as it can to light , our judgment thereupon ought to be calm and cautious . in prosecution upon probable grounds , we are accountable only for our industry or remisness , but in judgment ; we are deeply responsible to god almighty , for it's rectitude or obliquity in cases of life , the judge is god's steward of the parties blood , and must give a strict account for every drop . but as i told you mr. speaker , i will not insist long upon the ground of difference in me now , from what i was formerly . the truth on 't is , sir , the same ground whereupon i ( with the rest of the five , to whom you first committed the consideration of my lord strafford ) brought down our opinion , that it was fit he should be accused of treason , upon the same ground i was engaged with earnestness in his prosecution , and had the same ground remained in that force of belief with me , which , till very lately it did , i should not have been tender in his condemnation . but truly , sir , to deal plainly with you , that ground of our accusation , that spur to our prosecution , and that which should be the basis of my judgment , of the earl of strafford , as unto treason , is to my understanding quite vanisht away . this it was , mr. speaker , his advising the king to employ the army of ireland , to reduce england . this i was assured would be proved , before i gave my consent to his accusation . i was confirmed in the same belief , during the prosecution , and fortified in it most of all since sir henry vane's preparatory examination , by the assurances which that worthy member , mr. pym gave me , that his testimony would be made convincing , by some notes of what passed at that iunto concurrent with it , which i ever understanding to be of some other councellor , you see now , prove but a copy of the same secretaries notes , discovered and produc'd in the manner you have heard , and those such disjoynted fragments of the venemous part of discourses , no results , no conclusions of counsels , which are the only things that secretaries should register , there being no use at all of the other , but to accuse and to bring men into danger . but , sir , this is not that which overthrows the evidence with me , concerning the army of ireland , nor yet , that all the rest of the iunto , upon their oaths , remember nothing of it . but this , sir , which i shall tell you , is that which works with me , under favour , to an utter overthrow of his evidence , as unto that of the army of ireland ; before , whilst i was a prosecutor , and under tie of secrecy , i might not discover any weakness of the cause , which now as a judge i must . mr. secretary was examined thrice upon oath , at the preparatory committee . the first time he was questioned to all the interrogatories , and to that part of the seventh , which concerns the army of ireland : he said positively in these words , i cannot charge him with that . but for the rest , he desires time to recollect himself , which was granted him . some days after he was examined a second time , and then deposes these words , concerning the king's being absolved from rules of government , and so forth , very clearly . but being prest to that part , concerning the irish army , he said again , i can say nothing to that . here we thought we had done with him , till divers weeks after , my lord of northumberland , and all others of the iunto , denying to have heard any thing concerning those words , of reducing england by the irish army . it was thought fit to examine the secretary once more , and then he deposes these words to have been said by the earl of strafford to his majesty , you have an army in ireland , which you may imploy here , to reduce ( or some word to that sense ) this kingdom . mr. speaker , these are the circumstances which , i confess with my conscience , thrust quite out of doors that grand article of our charge , concerning his desperate advice to the king , of employing the irish army here . let not this , i beseech you , be driven to an aspersion upon mr. secretary , as if he should have sworn otherwise than he knew or believed ; he is too worthy to do that ; only let thus much be inferred from it , that he , who twice upon oath , with time of recollection , could not remember any thing of such a business , might well a third time mis-remember somewhat in this business , the difference of one letter , here for there , or that for this , quite alters the case , the latter also being more probable , since it is confest of all hands , that the debate then was concerning a war with scotland ; and you may remember , that at the bar he once said , to employ there . and thus , mr. speaker , i have faithfully given you an account what it is that hath blunted the edge of the hatchet or bill with me towards my lord of strafford . this was that whereupon i accused him with a free heart , prosecuted him with earnestness , and had it , to my understanding , been proved , should have condemned him with innocence . whereas now i cannot satisfie my conscience to do it . i profess , i can have no notion of any bodies intent to subvert the laws treasonably , or by force ; and this design of force not appearing , all his other wicked practises cannot amount so high with me . i can find a more easie and more natural spring , from whence to derive all his other crimes , than from an intent to bring in tyranny , and to make his own posterity , as well as us , slaves ; as from revenge , from pride , from avarice , from passion , and insolence of nature . but had this of the irish army been proved , it would have diffused a complexion of treason over all , it would have been a withe , indeed , to bind all those other scattered and lesser branches , as it were , into a faggot of treason . i do not say but the rest may represent him a man as worthy to die , but perhaps worthier than many a traytor . i do not say , but they may justly direct us to enact , that they shall be treason for the future . but god keep me from giving judgment of death on any man , and of ruine to his innocent posterity , upon a law made a posteriori . let the mark be set on the door where the plague is , and then let him that will enter die . i know , mr. speaker , there is in parliament a double power of life and death by bill , a judicial power , and a legislative ; the measure of the one , is what 's legally just ; of the other , what is prudentially and politickly fit for the good and preservation of the whole . but these two , under favour , are not to be confounded in judgment : we must not piece up want of legality with matter of convenience , not the defailance of prudential fitness with a pretence of legal justice . to condemn my lord of strafford judicially , as for treason , my conscience is not assured that the matter will bear it . and i do it by the legislative power , my reason consultively cannot agree to that , since i am perswaded , neither the lords nor the king will pass the bill , and consequently that our passing it will be a cause of great divisions and combustions in the state. and therefore my humble advice is , that laying aside this bill of attainder , we may think of another , saving only life , such as may secure the state from my lord of strafford , without endangering it , as much by division concerning his punishment , as he hath endangered it by his practices . if this may not be hearkned unto , let me conclude , in saying that unto you all , which i have throughly inculcated to mine own conscience upon this occasion . let every man lay his hand upon his heart , and sadly consider what we are going to do , with a breath , either justice or murther ; justice on the one side , or murther heightned and aggravated to its supreamest extent . for as the casuists say , that he who lies with his sister commits incest , but he that marries his sister sins higher , by applying god's ordinance to his crime : so doubtless he that commits murther with the sword of justice , heightens that crime to the utmost . the danger being so great , and the case so doubtful , that i see the best lawyers in diametral opposition concerning it : let every man wipe his heart , as he does his eyes , when he would judge of a nice and subtile object . the eye if it be pretincted with any colour , is vitiated in its discerning . let us take heed of a blood-shotten eye in judgment . let every man purge his heart clear of all passions , ( i know this great and wise body-politick can have none , but i speak to individuals , from the weakness which i find in my self ) away with personal animosities , away with all flatteries to the people , in being the sharper against him , because he is odious to them ; away with all fears , left by the sparing his blood they may be incens'd ; away with all such considerations , as that it is not fit for a parliament , that one accused by it of treason , should escape with life . let not former vehemence of any against him , nor fear from thence , that he cannot be safe while that man lives , be an ingredient in the sentence of any one of us. of all these corruptives of judgment , mr. speaker , i do before god discharge my self to the uttermost of my power . and do with a clear conscience wash my hands of this mans blood , by this solemn protestation , that my vote goes not to the taking of the earl of strafford's life . ordered , that the debate of the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford , be resumed to morrow morning at eight of the clock , and mr. speaker is to put the house in mind of this order . ordered , that sir edward cook 's book , of the pleas of the crown , be delivered to the earl of strafford's committee , for the special service of the house . tuesday , april th , . post merid. the committee , according to yesterdays order , reassumed the debate of the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford . mr. speaker reassumed the chair . ordered , that the house sit this afternoon at three of the clock , and reassume the debate of the bill of attainder against thomas earl of strafford . the house resolved into a committee , mr. peard being called to the chair , then mr. speaker reassumed the chair . ordered , that the further debate of the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford , be reassumed to morrow morning at eight of the clock . wednesday , april th , . post merid. according to an order yesterday made , the house was resolved into a committee to consider of the bill of attainder of thomas earl of strafford . mr. peard being called to the chair , then mr. speaker reassumed the chair . ordered , that the doors be lock'd , and the keys brought up to the table , and that no man go out without leave of the committee . mr. peard again called to the chair . mr. peard reports from the grand committee the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford , with the additions and amendments thereunto , the which addition and amendments were twice read , and the bill upon the question ordered to be engrossed . ordered , that the house meet this afternoon at three of the clock , and the third time read an act for the attainder of thomas earl of strafford of high treason ; and upon the question for the passing , the house was divided . the lord digby , mr. lloyd tellers for the yeas , sir gilbert gerrard , sir thomas barington tellers for the noes ; with the noes , with the yeas . upon the report thereof the bill past. mr. pym is appointed to carry up the bill to the lords , and was further ordered to express unto the lords , that it is a bill that highly concerns the common-wealth , especially in the expediting of it . mr. pym acquaints the house , that according to the commands of this house , he had delivered the bill of attainder , with special recommendations for the expedition in regard of the importance , and that this house was ready to justifie the legality of the bill , if any way their lordships should desire a conference by a committee of both houses ; the sooner and the more publick the way , shall be the better , and the more agreeable to the desires of this house . thursday , april th , . post merid. a message from the lords by judge reeve and judge forster . the lords have agreed to hear this house in westminster-hall at eight of the clock on saturday next , touching the matter of law in the business of the earl of strafford , if this house shall so please . answer returned by the same messengers , that this house has taken their lordships message into consideration , and will send an answer by messengers of their own . mr. solicitor st. iohn is enjoyned by this house to maintain the legal part of the bill of attainder of thomas earl of strafford on saturday morning next , and mr. maynard and mr. glyn are adjoyned unto him as assistants . sir iohn eveling went up to the lords with this message , to desire a free conference by a committee of both houses , concerning their lordships message sent this day , touching the matter of law in the case of the trial of the earl of strafford . mr. pym , mr. pierepoint , sir iohn culpepper , mr. fines , mr. hampden , and mr. prideaux , are to prepare heads for this conference with the lords , and to manage the conference . sir iohn eveling brings answer , that their lordships will give a present meeting , by a committee of the whole house , as is desired . the heads of the conference , reported by mr. pierepoint , to be desired with the lords , touching the matter of law in the case of the earl of strafford . that this house received a message from their lordships this day , to this effect , that their lordships are ready to hear this house in westminster-hall on saturday morning next , touching the point of law in the case of thomas earl of strafford , they conceive , this did arise from the message of this house upon the delivery of the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford . that this house is ready at a conference by a committee of both houses , to justifie the justice and legality of the bill of attainder . mr. pym , mr. stroud , sir thomas barrington , mr. hollis , and sir io. hotham , are to prepare heads for this conference , and to manage it . mr. pierepoint reports the conference had with the lords , touching the matter of law , in the case of the earl of strafford . my lord privy-seal said , that the intention of their house was to have proceeded in the former way , to have heard the council upon the legal part ; but since it is your desire to have a committee of both houses , to meet at the time and place before appointed ; the day being now far spent , and finding something of moment to be considered of , their lordships will send an answer by messengers of their own in time convenient , and therefore shall not meet on saturday in westminster-hall , but will sit on saturday in their own house . friday , april th , . post merid. exceptions were taken by divers members of the house to the lord digby , for many passages in a speech of his , delivered at the passing of the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford . the lord digby rose up , and in his place explained himself , touching those several passages , and there was no more done thereupon at this time . saturday , april th , . post merid. two petitions from divers of the citizens of london were this day read . ( . ) to the house of commons . ( . ) to the honourable assembly of the lords and commons , as followeth : to the most honourable assembly of the lords and commons in this present parliament . the humble petition of divers citizens of london . sheweth , that notwithstanding his majesties gracious answer , to the humble petition of his loyal subjects , in summoning this parliament , with the great care and endeavoured pains taken by both houses , for the removing the heavy grievances in church and common-wealth ; whereof the petitioners have already received some fruit , for which they desire to return their most humble and utmost thanks ; yet nevertheless they are enforced , with all humility , to represent to this most honourable assembly , some of those obstructions which do still hinder that freedom and fulness of trade in this city they have formerly had , and , which considering the numerous multitude thereupon depending , they conceive it not able comfortably to subsist . as the unsetled condition of the kingdom , even since the troubles in scotland , hath caused both strangers , and also some of our own , who did furnish great sums of money to use , to call it in , and remit much of it by exchange into forreign parts , and stand now in expectation of what the issue of things may be . the stopping money in the mint , which till then was accounted the safest place , and surest staple in these parts of the world , still doth hinder the importation of bullion ; the scots now disabled to pay such debts as they owe to the petitioners , and others in the city ; and by reason of the oppressions exercised in ireland , their debts also are detained there . the english-trade , by reason of our general distractions and fears , is so much decayed , that country trades-men cannot pay their debts in london as formerly . the great sums of money unduly taken by his majesties officers and farmers , for impositions upon merchandize exported and imported , and the want of relief in courts of justice against them . the drawing out from the city great sums of money ( which is the life and spirit of trade ) for his majesties service in the north , and being there employed , is not yet returned . besides all which , from what strong and secret opposition the petitioners know not ; they have not received what so much time and pains might give and cause to hope , but still incendiaries of the kingdoms , and other notorious offendors , remain unpunished : the affairs of the church , notwithstanding many petitions concerning it , and long debate about it , remains unsetled ; the papists still armed , the laws against them not executed , some of the most active of them still at court , priests and jesuits not yet banished , the irish popish-army not yet disbanded , courts of justice not yet reformed , and the earl of strafford , who as now appears , hath counselled the plundering of this city , and putting it to fine and ransom ; and said , it would never be well , till some of the aldermen were hang'd up , because they would not yield to illegal levies of monies , had so drawn out and spent this time in his business , to the very great charge of the whole kingdom , and his endeavour to obtain yet more , all which makes us fear there may be practices now in hand to hinder the birth of your great endeavours , and that we lie under some more dangerous plot than we can discover . all which premisses , with their fears and distractions , growing therefrom , and from things of the like nature ; the petitioners humbly offer to the most grave consideration of this most honourable assembly , as being the true causes of decay of trade , discouragement of trades-men , and of the great scarcity of monies , with the consequences they labour under . and do humbly pray , that their said grievances may be redressed , the causes of their fears removed , justice executed upon the said earl , and other incendiaries and offenders , the rather , in regard till then the petitioners humbly conceive neither religion , nor their lives , liberties , or estates can be secured . and as in duty bound , they shall ever pray , &c. subscribed to the petition , all men of good rank and quality . after the petition was read and considered . the lord russel goes up to the lords with this message , to desire a conference , by a committee of both houses , concerning a petition from the city of london , directed to both houses of parliament . mr. glyn is ordered to manage this conference , and mr. hill to assist him , and to deliver the petition from the citizens of london at this conference , and thence to take occasion of representing the desires of this house ; likewise for the expediting of the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford . monday , april th , . post merid. a message from the lords by judge reeves and judge heath , that they are ready for a conference , by a committee of both houses , to the petition presented from london , for which this house sent a message on saturday last . answer returned by the same messengers , that this house has taken their lordships message into consideration , and will give a meeting presently , as is desired . according to an order on saturday last , mr. glyn and mr. hill went up to manage this conference , and sir walter earle is ordered to manage mr. pym's part , in respect of his absence at this time . tuesday , april th , . post merid. a message from the lords by judge foster and judge heath , that their lordships will be ready to meet at a conference , by a committee of both houses , at nine of the clock upon thursday morning in westminster-hall , and there to hear this house , according to their own offer , when they brought up the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford . answer returned by the same messengers , that this house has taken their lordships message into consideration , and is resolved to give a meeting at the time and place , as is appointed . wednesday , april th , . post merid. ordered , that mr. solicitor st. iohn have power to send for such records , as he shall think needful for that service committed unto him , for maintaining the point of law , in the case of the earl of strafford . the same committee as was formerly appointed to keep the doors at westminster-hall , is appointed to keep the doors again to morrow . mr. solicitor , and mr. maynard , and mr. glyn , appointed as assistants unto him , are to sit in the most convenient places in the middle of the lower rank . mr. edward hide went up to the lords with this message , to acquaint their lordships , that the house hath received such information , as hath moved some fears in them , that the earl of strafford may have a design to escape , that he hath ships at sea at command , and that the guards about him are weak ; therefore to desire their lordships he may be a close prisoner , and the guards strengthened . mr. hide brings this answer , that their lordships had heretofore given directions to the lieutenant of the tower , that he should be close prisoner , and take care for a stronger guard , and will take it into examination , and give directions as is desired . friday , april th , . post merid. ordered , that mr. solicitor be required from this house , to bring in a particular copy of his argument yesterday in westminster-hall , and likewise that mr. pym bring him a copy of the speeches spoken by him in westminster-hall , both at the beginning and latter end of the trial of the earl of strafford . a copy of the paper posted up at the corner of the wall of sir william bronkard's house , in the old palace-yard in westminster , declaring the following names to be enemies of iustice. the lord digby , lord compton , lord buckhurst , sir robert hatton , sir thomas fanshaw , sir edward alford . nicholas slanning , sir thomas danby , sir george wentworth , sir peter wentworth , sir fred. conwallis , sir william carnaby . sir richard winn , sir gervas cliffton , sir william withrington , sir william pennyman , sir patrick carwin , sir richard lee , sir henry slingsby , sir william portman , mr. gervas hollis , mr. sydney godolphin , mr. cook , mr. coventry , mr. kirton , mr. pollard , mr. price , mr. trevanyon , mr. ieane , mr. edgcombe , mr. ben. weston , mr. selden , mr. alford , mr. loyd , mr. herbert , captain digby , serjeant hyde , mr. tayler , mr. richard weston , mr. griffith , mr. scawen , mr. bridgman , mr. fettyplace , doctor turner , captain charles price , doctor parry a civilian , mr. richard arundel , mr. newport , mr. nowell , mr. chichley , mr. mallory , mr. porter , mr. white , secretary to e. d. mr. warwick . it is a presumption that these names were thus posted up by some of those who came in multitudes to the parliament house , but he that took the list of their names ( as mr. elsing told the author ) was one mr. w — who served for some borough in the county of wilts , and who did not afterwards go to the king at oxford in time of war , though his wife did ; but he staid in the parliament to do what friendly office he could for the king and his party : it is probable he gave a copy of those names to some friends , not intending to have the same made publick in that manner . the name of one member of the house that was in the list , who is omitted in this , viz. sir iohn strangwayes , who was not then in town , but sir iohn , after his return out of dorsetshire , complained that his name was posted up amongst others , and moved , that the business might be examined how the list came abroad , and was made publick , as aforesaid , he being then in the country . wednesday , may th , . mr. solicitor is appointed to bring in his argument he made in westminster-hall , at the trial of the earl of strafford on monday last . a message from the lords by judge reeves and judge forster , that they give this house thanks for sitting so long , that they are still in debate of the bill against the earl of strafford , so that this night they cannot be ready for a conference . saturday , may th , . a message from the lords by judge forster and judge heath , that the bill of attainder of thomas earl of strafford is passed their house , without any alteration or amendments . ordered , that a message be sent to the lords , to desire a free conference , by a committee of both houses , concerning the bill of attainder of thomas earl of strafford . mr. hotham is to go up with this message , mr. pym is to manage this conference , the substance whereof is : that in regard the peace of the kingdom doth much consist in the execution of the bill of attainder of thomas earl of strafford , to desire their lordships to move his majesty as speedily as may be to give his assent . mr. hotham brings answer , that the lords will give a present meeting at a free conference , by a committee of both houses , as is desired . mr. pym reports , that he had performed the command of this house . ordered , that this house shall joyn with the lords , to attend his majesty , to appoint a time when he would be pleased to set , concerning his assent to the bill of attainder of thomas earl of strafford . mr. pym brings word , that the lords have sent to his majesty , and this house shall hear from them very speedily . a message from the lords by judge forster and judge heath , that the lords appointed by their house , attended his majesty , who appointed that both houses should attend him at four of the clock in the banqueting-house , concerning the bill of attainder : that they have passed the bill concerning the not dissolving the parliament . monday , may th , . the gentleman-usher of the black-rod came to signifie to the house , that his majesties assent to the bill of attainder is now to be given by commission , and that the lords did expect mr. speaker and the house of commons to come up . articles of the commons assembled in parliament against thomas earl of strafford , in maintenance of their accusation , whereby he stands charged with high treason . whereas the said commons have already exhibited articles against the said earl , in haec verba , now the said commons do further impeach the said earl as followeth , ( that is to say , ) i. that the said earl of strafford the th day of march , in the eighth year of his majesties reign , was president of the king's council in the northern parts of england . that the said earl being president of the said council on the th of march , a commission under the great seal of england , with certain schedules of instructions thereunto annexed , was directed to the said earl , or others the commissioners therein named , whereby , among other things , power and authority is limitted to the said earl , and others the commissioners therein named , to hear and determine all offences , and misdemeanors , suits , debates , controversies and demands , causes , things and matters , whatsoever therein contained , and within certain precincts in the said northern parts therein specified , and in such manner as by the said schedule is limitted and appointed . that , amongst other things , in the said instructions , it is directed , that the said president , and others therein appointed , shall hear and determine according to the course of procéedings in the court of star-chamber , divers offences , deceits and falsities therein mentioned , whether the same be provided for by acts of parliament or not , so that the fines imposed be not less than by the act or acts of parliament provided against those offences is appointed . that also amongst other things in the said instructions , it is directed , that the said president , and others therein appointed , have power to examine , hear , and determine , according to the course of proceedings in the court of chancery , all manner of complaints , for any matter , within the said precincts , as well concerning lands , tenements , and hereditaments , either free-hold , customary , or copy-hold , as leases , and other things therein mentioned , and to stay proceedings in the court of common law by injunction , or otherwise , by all ways and means , as is used in the court of chancery . and although the former presidents of the said council had never put in practise such instructions , nor had they any such instructions , yet the said earl in the month of may in the said eighth year , and divers years following , did put in practice , exercise and use , and caused to be used and put in practice the said commission and instructions , and did direct and exercise an exorbitant and unlawful power and iurisdiction over the persons and estates of his majesties subjects , in those parts , and did disinherit divers of his majesties subjects in those parts of their inheritances , sequestred their possessions , and did fine , ransome , punish , and imprison them ; and caused them to be fined , ransomed , punished and imprisoned , to their ruine and destruction ; and namely , sir coniers darcy , sir john bourcher , and divers others , against the laws , and in subversion of the same . and the said commission and instructions were procured and issued by advice of the said earl. and he the said earl , to the intent that such illegal and unjust power might be exercised with the greater licence and will , did advise , counsel , and procure further directions ; in and by the said instructions to be given , that no prohibition be granted at all , but in cases where the said council shall exceed the limits of the said instructions : and that if any writ of habeas corpus be granted , the party be not discharged till the party perform the decrée and order of the said council . and the said earl in the th year of his majesties reign , did procure a new commission to himself , and others therein appointed , with the said instructions , and other unlawful additions . that the said commission and instructions were procured by the sollicitation and advice of the said earl of strafford . ii. that shortly after the obtaining of the said commission , dated the th of march , in the eighth year of his majesties reign , ( to wit ) the last day of august then next following , he the said earl ( to bring his majesties liege-people into a dislike of his majesty , and of his government , and to terrifie the iustices , of the peace from executing of the laws : he the said earl , being then president , as aforesaid , and a iustice of peace ) did publiquely at the assizes held for the county of york , in the city of york , in and upon the said last day of august , declare and publish before the people , there attending for the administration of iustice according to law , and ( in the presence of the iustices sitting ) that some of the iustices were all for law , and nothing would please them but law ; but they should find that the king 's little finger should be heavier than the loines of the law. iii. that the realm of ireland having been time out of mind annexed to the imperial crown of this his majesties realm of england , and governed by the same laws : the said earl being lord deputy of that realm , to bring his majesties liege-subjects of that kingdom likewise into dislike of his majesties government , and intending the subversion of the fundamental laws , and setled government of that realm , and the destruction of his majesties liege-people there , did upon the th day of september , in the ninth year of his now majesties reign , in the city of dublin ( the chief city of that realm , where his majesties privy-council , and courts of iustice do ordinarily reside , and whither the nobility and gentry of that realm do usually resort for iustice , ) in a publick speech before divers of the nobility and gentry of that kingdom , and before the mayor , aldermen , and recorder , and many citizens of dublin , and other his majesties liege-people , declare and publish , that ireland was a conquered nation , and that the king might do with them what he pleased ; and speaking of the charters of former kings of england made to that city , he further then said , that their charters were nothing worth , and did bind the king no further than he pleased . iv. that richard earl of cork , having sued out process-in course of law for recovery of his possessions , from which he was put , by colour of an order made by the said earl of strafford , and the council-table of the said realm of ireland , upon a paper-petition , without legal procéeding , did the th day of february , in the eleventh year of his now majesties reign , threaten the said earl ( being then a péer of the said realm ) to imprison him , unless he would surcease his suit , and said , that he would have neither law nor lawyers dispute or question his orders . and the th day of march , in the said eleventh year , the said earl of strafford , speaking of an order of the said council-table of that realm , made in the time of king james , which concerned a lease , which the said earl of cork claimed in certain rectories or tythes which the said earl of cork alledged to be of no force , said , that he would make the said earl , and all ireland know , that so long as he had the government there , any act of state , there made , or to be made , should be as binding to the subjects of that kingdom as an act of parliament ; and did question the said earl of cork in the castle-chamber there , upon pretence of breach of the said order of council-table , and did sundry other times , and upon sundry other occasions , by his words and spéeches arrogate to himself a power above the fundamental laws , and established government of that kingdom , and scorned the said laws and established government . v. that according to such his declarations and spéeches , the said earl of strafford did use and exercise a power above and against , and to the subversion of the said fundamental laws , and established government of the said realm of ireland , extending such his power , to the goods , fréeholds , inheritances , liberties and lives of his majesties subjects of the said realm ; and namely , the said earl of strafford the th day of december , anno domini , . in the time of full peace , did , in the said realm of ireland , give and procure to be given against the lord mountnorris ( then and yet a péer of the said realm of ireland , and then uice-treasurer and receiver-general of the realm of ireland , and treasurer at war , and one of the principal secretaries of state , and kéeper of the privy-signet of the said kingdom , ) a sentence of death , by a council of war called together by the said earl of strafford , without any warrant or authority of law or offence , deserving any such punishment . and he the said earl did also at dublin , within the said realm of ireland , in the month of march , in the fourtéenth year of his majesties reign , without any legal or due procéedings or trial , give and cause to be given , a sentence of death against one other of his majesties subjects , whose name is yet unknown , and caused him to be put to death , in execution of the same sentence . vi. that the said earl of strafford , without any legal procéedings , and upon a paper-petition of richard rolston , did cause the said lord mountnorris to be disseised , and put out of possession of his freehold and inheritance of his mannor of tymore in the county of armagh , in the kingdom of ireland , the said lord mountnorris having been years before in quiet possession thereof . vii . that the said earl of strafford , in the term of holy trinity , in the thirteenth year of his now majesties reign , did cause a case , commonly called the case of tenures upon defective titles , to be made and drawn up without any iury or tryal , or other legal process , and without the consent of parties , and did then procure the iudges of the said realm of ireland , to deliver their opinions and resolutions to that case , and by colour of such opinion , did without any legal procéeding , cause thomas lord dillon , a péer of the said realm of ireland , to be put out of the possession of divers lands and tenements , being his fréehold in the country of mayo and roscomen , in the said kingdom , and divers other of his majesties subjects to be put out of possession , and disseised of their fréehold by colour of the same resolution , without legal proceedings , whereby many hundreds of his majesties subjects were undone , and their families utterly ruinated . viii . that the said earl of strafford , upon a petition of sir john gifford knight , the first day of february , in the said thirteenth year of his majesties reign , without any legal process , made a decrée or order against adam uiscount loftus of ely , a peer of the said realm of ireland , and lord chancellor of ireland , and did cause the said uiscount to be imprisoned , and kept close prisoner , on pretence of disobedience to the said decree or order . and the said earl , without any authority , and contrary to his commission , required and commanded the said lord uiscount to yield up unto him the great seal of the realm of ireland , which was then in his custody , by his majesties command , and imprisoned the said chancellor for not obeying such his command . and without any legal proceeding , did in the same thirtéenth year imprison george earl of kildare , a péer of ireland , against law , thereby to enforce him to submit his title to the mannor and lordship of castleleigh in the quéens country , ( being of great yearly value ) to the said earl of strafford's will and pleasure , and kept him a year prisoner for the said cause ; two months whereof he kept him close prisoner , and refused to enlarge him , notwithstanding his majesties letters for his enlargement to the said earl of strafford directed . and upon a petition exhibited in october , anno domini . by thomas hibbots , against dame mary hibbots widow , to him the said earl of strafford ; the said earl of strafford recommended the said petition to the council-table of ireland , where the most part of the council gave their uote and opinion for the said lady ; but the said earl finding fault herewith , caused an order to be entred against the said lady , and threatned her , that if she refused to submit thereunto , he would imprison her , and fine her five hundred pounds ; that if she continued obstinate , he would continue her imprisonment , and double her fine every month ; by means whereof she was enforced to relinquish her estate in the lands questioned in the said petition , which shortly after were conveyed to sir robert meredith , to the use of the said earl of strafford . and the said earl in like manner did imprison divers others of his majesties subjects , upon pretence of disobedience to his orders , decrées , and other illegal command by him made for pretended debts , titles of lands , and other causes in an arbitrary and extrajudicial course , upon paper-petitions , to him preferred , and no cause legally depending . ix . that the said earl of strafford the sixteenth day of february , in the twelfth year of his majesties reign , assuming to himself a power above and against law , took upon him by a general warrant under his hand , to give power to the lord bishop of down and connor his chancellor , or chancellors , and their several officers thereto to be appointed , to attach and arrest the bodies of all such of the meaner and poorer sort , who after citation should either refuse to appear before them , or appearing , should omit or deny to perform , or undergo all lawful decrees , sentences , and orders , issued , imposed , or given out against them , and them to commit and keep in the next gaol , until they should either perform such sentences , or put in sufficient bail to shew some reason before the council-table , of such their contempt and neglect ; and the said earl , the day and year last mentioned , signed and issued a warrant to that effect , and made the like warrants to several other bishops and their chancellors in the said realm of ireland to the same effect . x. that the said earl of strafford being lord lieutenant , or deputy of ireland , procured the customs of the merchandize exported out , and imported into that realm , to be farmed to his own use. and in the ninth year of his now majesties reign , he having then interest in the said customs ( to advance his own gain and lucre ) did cause and procure the native commodities of ireland , to be rated in the book of rates for the customs ( according to which the customs were usually gathered ) at far greater ualues and prices than in truth they were worth ( that is to say ) every hyde at twenty shillings , which in truth was worth but five shillings , every stone of wooll at thirteen shillings four pence , though the same were really worth but five shillings , at the utmost niue shillings ; by which means , the custom , which before was but a twentieth part of the true value of the commodity , was enhanced sometimes a fifth part , and sometimes to a fourth , and sometimes to a third part of the true value , to the great oppression of the subjects , and decay of merchandise . xi . that the said earl , in the ninth year of his majesties reign , did by his own will and pleasure , and for his own lucre , restrain the exportation of the commodities of that kingdom without his licence , as namely , pipe-staves , and other commodities , and then raised great sums of money for licences of exportation of those commodities , and dispensation of the said restraints imposed on them , by which means the pipe-staves were raised from four pound ten shillings , or five pound per thousand , to ten pounds , and sometimes eleven pound per thousand ; and other commodities were enhanced in the like proportion , and by the same means , by him the said earl. xii . that the said earl , being lord deputy of ireland , on the ninth day of january , in the thirteenth year of his now majesties reign , did then under colour to regulate the importation of tobacco into the said realm of ireland , issue a proclamation in his majesties name , prohibiting the importation of tobacco , without licence of him and the council there , from and after the first day of may , anno dom. . after which restraint , the said earl , notwithstanding the said restraint , caused divers great quantities of tobacco to be imported to his own use , and fraughted divers ships with tobacco , which he imported to his own use : and that if any ship brought tobacco into any port there , the said earl , and his agents , used to buy the same to his own use , at their own price ; and if that the owners refused to let him have the same at under values , then they were not permitted to vent the same there ; by which undue means , the said earl having gotten the whole trade of tobacco into his own hands , he sold it at great and excessive prizes , such as he list to impose for his own profit . and the more to assure the said monopoly of tobacco , he the said earl on the thrée and twentieth day of february , in the thirteenth year aforesaid , did issue another proclamation , commanding that none should put to sale any tobacco by whole-sale , from and after the last day of may , then next following , but what should be made up into rolls , and the same sealed with two seals by himself appointed , one at each end of the roll. and such as was not sealed , to be seized , appointing six pence the pound for a reward to such persons as should seize the same : and the persons in whose custody the unsealed tobacco should be found , to be committed to gaol ; which last proclamation was coloured by a pretence for the restraining of the sale of unwholesome tobacco , but it was truly to advance the said monopoly . which proclamation the said earl did rigorously put in execution , by seizing the goods , fining , imprisoning , whipping , and putting the offenders against the same proclamation on the pillory ; as namely , banaby hubbard , edward cavena , john tumen , and divers others ; and made the officers of state , and iustices of peace , and other officers to serve him in the compassing and executing these unjust and undue courses , by which cruelties , and unjust monopolies , the said earl raised l. per annum gain to himself . and yet the said earl though he enhanced the customs , where it concerned the merchants in general , yet drew down the impost , formerly taken on tobacco , from six pence the pound to three pence the pound , it being for his own profit so to do . and the said earl , by the same , and other rigorous and undue means , raised several other monopolies and unlawful exactions for his own gain , viz. on starch , iron-pots , glasses , tobacco-pipes , and several other commodities . xiii . that flax being one of the principal and native commodities of that kingdom of ireland , the said earl having gotten great quantities thereof into his hands , and growing on his own lands , did issue out several proclamations , viz. the one dated the one and thirtieth day of may , and the twelfth of his majesties reign ; and the other dated the one and thirtieth day of january in the same year , thereby prescribing and enjoyning the working of flar into yarn and thread , and the ordering of the same in such ways wherein the natives of that kingdom were unpractized and unskilful : which proclamations so issued , were by his commands and warrants to his majesties iustices of peace , and other officers , and by other rigorous means put in execution , and the flax wrought or ordered in other manner than as the said proclamation prescribed , was seized and employed to the use of him and his agents , and thereby the said earl endeavoured to gain , and did gain in effect the sole sale of that native commodity . xiv . that the said earl , by proclamation dated the sixteenth of october , in the fourteenth year of his majesties reign , did impose upon the owners , masters , pursers , and boat-swaines of every ship , a new and unlawful oath , viz. that they ( or two or more of them ) immediately after the arrival of any ship within any port or créek in the said kingdom of ireland , should give in a true in-voice of the outward bulk of wares and merchandizes first laden aboard them , together with the several marks and number of goods , and their qualities and condition of the said goods , as far as to them should be known , the names of the several merchants proprietors of the said goods , and the place from whence they were fraughted , and whither they were bound to discharge ; which proclamation was accordingly put in execution , and sundry persons enforced to take the said unlawful oath . xv. that the said earl of strafford trayterously and wickedly devised and contrived , by force of arms , and in a war-like manner , to subdue the subjects of the said realm of ireland , and to bring them under his tyrannical power and will ; and in pursuance of his wicked and trayterous purposes aforesaid , the said earl of strafford , in the eighth year of his majesties reign , did , by his own authority , without any warrant or colour of law , tax and impose great sums of money upon the towns of baltemore , bauden-bridge , talowe , and divers other towns and places in the said realm of ireland ; and did cause the same to be levied upon the inhabitants of those towns by troops of souldiers , with force and arms , in a war-like manner . and on the ninth day of march , in the twelfth year of his now majesties reign , trayterously did give authority unto robert savile , a serjeant at arms , and to the captains of the companies of souldiers , in several parts of that realm , to send such numbers of souldiers to lie on the lands and houses of such as would not conform to his orders , until they should render obedience to his said orders and warrants , and after such submission ( and not before ) the said souldiers to return to their garrisons . and did also issue the like warrants unto divers others , which warrants were in war-like manner , with force and arms , put in execution accordingly ; and by such war-like means did force divers of his majesties subjects of that realm , to submit themselves to his unlawful commands . and in the said twelfth year of his majesties reign , the said earl of strafford did traiterously cause certain troops of horse and foot , armed in war-like manner , and in war-like array , with force and arms , to expel richard butler from the possession of the mannor of castle-cumber , in the territory of idough , in the said realm of ireland , and did likewise , and in the war-like manner , expel divers of his majesties subjects from their houses , families , and possessions ; as namely , edward o brenman , owen oberman , john brenman , patrick oberman , sir cyprian horsefield , and divers others , to the number of about an hundred families , and took and imprisoned them and their wives , and carried them prisoners to dublin , and there detained , until they did yield up , surrender , or release their respective estates and rights . and the said earl , in like war-like manner , hath during his government of the said kingdom of ireland , subdued divers others of his majesties subjects there to his will , and thereby , and by the means aforesaid , hath levied war within the said realm against his majesty and his liege-people of that kingdom . xvi . that the earl of strafford , the two and twentieth of february , in the seventh year of his majesties reign , intending to oppress the said subjects of ireland , did make a proposition , and obtained from his majesty an allowance thereof , that no complaint of injustice or oppression done in ireland , should be received in england against any , unless it appeared , that the party made first his address to him the said earl ; and the said earl having by such usurped tyrannical and exorbitant power , expressed in the former articles , destroyed and oppressed the péers , and other subjects of that kingdom of ireland , in their lives , consciences , land , liberties and estates ; the said earl to the intent the better to maintain and strengthen his said power , and to bring the people into a disaffection of his majesty , as aforesaid , did use his majesties name in the execution of the said power . and to prevent the subjects of that realm of all means of complaints to his majesty , and of redress against him and his agents , did issue a proclamation , bearing date the seventeenth day of september , in the eleventh year of his majesties reign , thereby commanding all the nobility , undertakers , and others who held estates and offices in the said kingdom , ( except such as were employed in his majesties service , or attending in england by his special command ) to make their personal residence in the said kingdom of ireland , and not to depart thence without licence of himself . and the said earl hath since issued other proclamations to the same purpose , by means whereof the subjects of the said realm are restrained from seeking relief against the oppressions of the said earl , without his licence ; which proclamation the said earl hath by several rigorous waies , as by fine , imprisonment , and otherwise , put in execution on his majesties subjects ; as namely , one — parry , and others , who came over only to complain of the exorbitances and oppressions of the said earl. xvii . that the said earl having by such means , as aforesaid , subverted the government and laws of the kingdom of ireland , did , in march , in the sixteenth year of his majesties reign , in scandal of his majesties government , of all his kingdoms ; and in further execution of his wicked purposes aforesaid , speaking of the army in ireland , declare , that his majesty was so well pleased with the army of ireland , and the consequences thereof , that his majesty would certainly make the same a pattern for all his three kingdoms . xviii . that the said earl of strafford , for the better effecting of his traiterous designs , and wicked purposes , did endeavour to draw dependency upon himself of the papists in both kingdoms of england and ireland , and to that end , during the time of his government in ireland , he restored divers fryeries and masse-houses , ( which had béen formerly suppressed by the precedent deputies of that kingdom ; two of which houses are in the city of dublin , and had been assigned to the use of the university there ) to the pretended owners thereof , who have since imployed the same to the exercise of the popish religion . and in the month of may and june last , the said earl did raise an army in the said realm , consisting of foot , all of which , except one , or thereabouts , were papists , and the said one thousand were drawn out of the old army there , consisting of two thousand foot , and in their places there were a thousand papists , or thereabouts , put into the said old army by the said earl. and the more to engage and tie the said new army of papists to himself , and to encourage them , and to discourage and weary out the said old army , the said earl did so provide : that the said new army of papists were duly paid , and had all necessaries provided for them , and permitted the exercise of their religion , but the said old army were for the space of one whole year and upwards unpaid . and the said earl being appointed a commissioner within eleven several counties of the northern parts of england , for compounding with recusants for their forfeitures due to his majesty ; which commission beareth date the eighth day of july , in the fifth year of his majesties reign that now is ; and being also receiver of the composition-money thereby arising , and of other debts , duties , and penalties , by reason of recusancy within the said counties , for his majesties use , by letters patents dated the ninth day of the same july ; he to engage the said recusants to him , did compound with them at low and under rates , and provided , that they should be discharged of all procéedings against them in all his majesties courts , both temporal and ecclesiastical , in manifest breach of , and contrary to the laws and statutes of this realm , in that behalf established . xix . that the said earl having taxed and levied the said impositions , and raised the said monopolies , and committed the said other oppressions in his majesties name ; and as by his majesties royal command , he the said earl in may , the fifteenth year of his majesties reign , did of his own authority contrive and frame a new and unusual oath , by the purport whereof , among many other things , the party taking the said oath , was to swear that he should not protest against any his majesties royal commands , but submit himself in all due obedience thereunto . which oath he so contriv'd to enforce the same on the subjects of the scotish nation , inhabiting in ireland , and out of a hatred to the said nation , and to put them to a discontent with his majesty , and his government there ; and compelled divers of his majesties said subjects there to take the said oath against their wills ; and of such as refused to take the said oath , some he grievously fined and imprisoned , and others he destroyed and exiled ; and namely , the tenth of october , anno dom. . he fined henry steward and his wife , who refused to take the said oath , l. a piece , and their two daughters and james gray l. a piece , and imprisoned them for not paying the said fines . the said henry steward his wife and daughters , and james gray , being the king's liege-people of the scotish nation ; and divers others he used in like manner ; and the said earl upon that occasion did declare , that the said oath did not only oblige them in point of allegiance to his majesty , and acknowledgment of his supremacy only , but to the ceremonies and government of the church established , and to be established by his majesties royal authority ; and said , that the refusers to obey , he would prosecute to the blood . xx. that the said earl hath in the th and th years of his majesties reign , and divers years past , laboured and endeavoured to breed in his majesty an ill opinion of his subjects ; namely , of those of the scotish nation , and divers and sundry times , and especially since the pacification made by his majesty with his said subjects of scotland in summer , in the th year of his majesties reign , he , the said earl did labour and endeavour to perswade , incite and provoke his majesty to an offensive war against his said subjects of the scotish nation : and the said earl , by his counsels , actions , and endeavours , hath béen , and is a principal and chief incendiary of the war and discord between his majesty and his subjects of england , and the said subjects of scotland , and hath declared and advised his majesty , that the demands made by the scots , in their parliament , were a sufficient cause of war against them . the said earl having formerly expressed the height and rancour of his mind towards his majesties subjects of the scotish nation , viz. the tenth day of october , in the fiftteenth year of his majesties reign , he said , that the nation of the scots were rebels and traytors , and he being then about to come to england , he then further said , that if it pleased his master ( meaning his majesty ) to send him back again , he would root out of the said kingdom ( meaning the said kingdom of ireland ) the scotish nation both root and branch . some lords , and others , who had taken the said oath in the precedent article only excepted : and the said earl hath caused divers of the ships and goods of the scots to be stayed , seized , and molested , to the intent to set on the said war. xxi . that the said earl of strafford , shortly after his spéeches mentioned in the last precedent articles , to wit , in the th year of his majesties reign , came into this realm of england , and was made lord lieutenant of ireland , and continued his government of that kingdom by a deputy : at his arrival here , finding that his majesty with much wisdom and goodness had composed the troubles in the north , and had a pacification with his subjects of scotland ; he laboured by all means to procure his majesty to break that pacification , incensing his majesty against his subjects of that kingdom , and the procéeding of the parliament there . and having incited his majesty to an offensive war against his subjects of scotland by sea and land , and by pretext thereof , to raise forces for the maintenance of that war ; he counselled his majesty to call a parliament in england , yet the said earl intended that if the said procéedings of that parliament should not be such as would stand with the said earl of strafford's mischievous designs , he would then procure his majesty to break the same ; and by ways of force and power , to raise monies upon the subjects of this kingdom . and for the encouragement of his majesty to hearken to his advice , he did before his majesty and his privy-council , then sitting in council , make a large declaration , that he would serve his majesty in any other way , in case the parliament should not supply him . xxii . that in the month of march , before the beginning of the last parliament , the said earl of strafford went into ireland , and procured the parliament of that kingdom to declare their assistance in a war against the scots , and gave directions for the raising of an army there , consisting of foot , and horse , being for the most part papists , as aforesaid . and confederacing with one sir george ratcliff , did together with him the said sir george trayterously conspire to employ the said army for the ruine and destruction of the kingdom of england , and of his maiesties subjects , and of altering and subderting of the fundamental laws and established government of this kingdom . and shortly after the said earl of strafford returned into england , and to sundry persons declared his opinion to be , that his majesty should first trie the parliament here , and if that did not supply him according to his occasions , he might use then his prerogative as he pleased , to levy what he néeded , and that he should be acquitted both of god and man ; he took some other courses to supply himself , though it were against the wills of his subjects . xxiii . that upon the thirtéenth day of april last , the parliament of england met , and the commons house ( then being the representative body of all the commons in the kingdom ) did accordingly to the trust reposed in them , enter into debate and consideration of the great grievances of this kingdom , both in respect of religion , and the publique liberty of the kingdom ; and his majesties referring chiefly to the said earl of strafford , and the archbishop of canterbury , the ordering and disposing of all matters concerning the parliament : he the said earl of strafford with the assistance of the said archbishop , did procure his majesty by sundry spéeches and messages , to urge the said commons house to enter into some resolution for his majesties supply , for maintenance of his war against his subjects of scotland , before any course taken for the relief of the great and pressing grievances , wherewith this kingdom was then afflicted . whereupon a demand was then made from his majtsty , of twelve subsidies , for the release of ship-money only ; and while the said commons then assembled ( with expression of great affection to his majesty and his service ) were in debate and consideration concerning some supply , before any resolution by them made , he the said earl of strafford , with the help and assistance of the said archbishop , did procure his majesty to dissolve the said parliament , upon the fifth day of may last : and upon the same day the said earl of strafford did treacherously , falsly and maliciously endeavour to incense his majesty against his loving and faithful subjects , who had béen members of the said house of commons , by telling his majesty , they had denied to supply him . and afterwards upon the same day did traiterously and wickedly counsel and advise his majesty to this effect , viz. that having tried the affections of his people , he was loose and absolved from all rules of government , and that he was to do every thing that power would admit , and that his majesty had tried all ways , and was refused , and should be acquitted towards god and man ; and that he had an army in ireland , ( meaning the army above mentioned , consisting of papists , his dependants , as is aforesaid ) which he might imploy to reduce this kingdom . xxiv . that in the same month of may , he the said earl of strafford , falsly , traiterously , and maliciously published and declared before others of his majesties privy-council , that the parliament of england had forsaken the king , and that in denying to supply the king , they had given him advantage to supply himself by other ways , and several other times he did maliciously , wickedly , and falsly publish and declare , that seeing the parliament had refused to supply his majesty in the ordinary and usual way , the king might provide for the kingdom in such waies , as he should hold fit , and that he was not to suffer himself to be mastered by the frowardness and undutifulness of the people . and having so maliciously standered the said late house of commons , he did with the help and advice of the said archbishop of canterbury and the lord finch , late lord kéeper of the great seal of england , cause to be printed and published in his majesties name a false and scandalous book , entituled , his majesties declaration of the causes that moved him to dissolve the last parliament , full of bitter and malicious invectives , and false and scandalous aspersions against the said house of commons . xxv . that not long after the dissolution of the said last parliament , ( viz. in the months of may and june ) he the earl of strafford , did advise the king to go on vigorously in levying the ship-money , and did procure the sheriffs of several counties to be sent for , for not levying the ship-money , divers of which were threatned by him to be sued in the star-chamber , and afterwards by his advice they were sued in star-chamber , for not levying the same , and divers of his majesties loving subjects were sent for and imprisoned by his advice , for that and other illegal payments . and a great loan of a hundred thousand pounds was demanded of the city of london , and the lord mayor , and sheriffs , and aldermen of the said city were often sent for , by his advice , to the council-table , to give an account of their proceedings in raising of ship-money , and furthering of that loan , and were required to certifie the names of such inhabitants of the said city as were fit to lend , which they with much humility refusing to do , he the said earl of strafford did use these and the like speeches , viz. that they deserved to be put to fine and ransom , and that no good would be done with them , till an example were made of them , and that they were laid by the héels , and some of the aldermen hanged up . xxvi . that the said earl by his wicked counsels , having brought his majesty into excessive charge , without any just cause , he did in the month of july last ( for the support of the said great charges ) counsel and approve two dangerous and wicked projects , viz. to seize upon the bullion , and the money in the mint . and to imbase his majesties coin with the mixtures of brass . and accordingly he procured one hundred and thirty thousand pounds which was then in the mint , and belonging to divers merchants , strangers , and others to be seized on and stayed , to his majesties use . and when divers merchants of london , owners of the said bullion and money , came to his house to let him understand the great mischief , that course would produce here , and in other parts , and what prejudice it would be to the kingdom , by discrediting the mint , and hindring the importation of bullion ; he the said earl told them , that the city of london dealt undutifully and unthankfully with his majesty , and that they were more ready to help the rebels than to help his majesty . and that if any hurt came to them , they may thank themselves : and that it was the course of other princes to make use of such monies to serve their occasions . and when in the same month of july , the officers of his majesties mint came to him , and gave him divers reasons against the imbasing the said money , he told them , that the french king did use to send commissaries of horse with commission to search into mens estates , and to peruse their accounts , that so they may know what to levy of them by force , which they did accordingly levy ; and turning to the lord cottington , then present , said , that this was a point worthy of his lordships consideration , meaning this course of the french king to raise monies by force , was a point worthy of his lordships consideration . xxvii . that in or about the month of august last , he was made lieutenant general of all his majesties forces in the north , prepared against the scots , and being at york , did then in the month of september by his own authority , and without any lawful warrant , impose a tax on his majesties subjects in the county of york of eight pence per diem , for maintenance of every souldier of the trained bands of that county , which sums of money he caused to be levied by force . and to the end to compel his majesties subjects out of fear and terrour to yield to the payment of the same , he did declare , that he would commit them that refused the payment thereof , and the souldiers should be satisfied out of their estates ; and and they that refused it , were in very little better condition than of high treason . xxviii . that in the months of september and october last , he the said earl of strafford , being certified of the scotish army coming into the kingdom , and he the said earl of strafford being lieutenant general of his majesties army , he did not provide for the defence of the town of newcastle , as he ought to have done , but suffered the same to be lost , that so he might the more incense the english against the scots . and for the same wicked purpose , and out of a malitious desire to engage the kindgoms of england and scotland in a national and bloody war , he did write to the lord conway , the general of the horse , and under the said earls command , that he should fight with the scotish army at the passage over the tyne , whatsoever should follow ; notwithstanding that the said lord conway had formerly by letters informed the said earl , that his majesties army , then under his command , was not of force sufficient to encounter the scots , by which advice of his , he did , contrary to the duty of his place , betray his majesties army , then under his command , to apparent danger and loss . all and every which words , counsels and actions of the said earl of strafford were spoken , given , and done by him the said earl of strafford , traiterously , and contrary to his allegiance to our soveraign lord the king , and with an intention and endeavour to alienate and withdraw the hearts and affections of the king's liege-people of all his realms from his majesty , and to set division between them , and to ruine and destroy his majesty , and majesties said kingdoms , for which they do further impeach him the said thomas earl of strafford of high treason against our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity . and he the said earl of strafford was lord deputy of ireland , or lord lieutenant of ireland , and lieutenant general of the army there under his most excellent majesty , and a sworn privy-counsellor to his majesty for his kingdoms both of england and ireland , and lord president of the north during the time that all and every the crimes and offences before set forth were done and committed , and he the said earl was lieutenant general of his majesties army in the north parts of england during the time that the crimes and offences , in the th and th articles , set forth were done and committed . tuesday , may th , . ordered , that mr. solicitor give order , that the arguments he made in westminster-hall , touching the matters of law in the case of the earl of strafford , be printed ; and that mr. pym give the like order , that his speeches at the beginning and ending of the trial of the said earl of strafford be likewise printed . the names of those gentlemen that managed the evidence in this trial , being , through over-sight , omitted to be inserted in their particular places , for the first nine articles ; it is thought fit , for more exact satisfaction , to give an account of them in this place , with particular references ; which may , by the reader , be easily supplyed . the names of the managers . folio . line . mr. pym. ibid. line . mr. pym. ibid. line . mr. pym. fol. . line . mr. pym. ibid. line . mr. pym. fol. . line . mr. maynard . ibid. line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. pym. fol. . line . mr. pym. fol. . line . mr. pym. to the first article . fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . m. maynard . fol. . line . m. maynard . ibid. line . mr. whitlock . fol. . line . mr. glyn. ibid. line . mr. maynard . ibid. line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. maynard . to the second article . fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. maynard . ibid. line . mr. maynard . ibid. line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. maynard . ibid. line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. maynard . to the third article . fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. maynard . ibid. line . mr. glyn. ibid. line . mr. maynard . ibid. line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . sir io. clotworthy . ibid. line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. pym. fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. pym. fol. . line . lord digby . ibid. line . mr. pym. ibid. line . mr. maynard . ibid. line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. maynard . to the fourth article . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. maynard . to the fifth article . fol. . line . mr. glyn. ibid. line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. glyn. ibid. line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. maynard . to the sixth article . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. palmer . ibid. line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. ibid. line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. stroud . ibid. line . mr. glyn. to the eighth article . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. ibid. line . mr. glyn. ibid. line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. ibid. line . mr. maynard . ibid. line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. to the ninth article . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. maynard . fol. . line . mr. glyn. fol. . line . mr. glyn. the tryal of t. earl of strafford . the first day . monday , march . . the lords being set in a place prepared in westminster-hall , purposely for the arraignment of thomas earl of strafford , upon a charge of high treason laid upon him by the commons house of parliament , in the name of themselves , and of all the commons of england . and the house of commons being there likewise , seated as a committee ; and those who were to manage the evidence on behalf of the house of commons , being members of that house , standing at the barr , the prisoner was called for ; and being brought by sir william balfour , lieutenant of the tower , after obeisances given , he came to the barr and kneeled ; and after standing up , the right honourable thomas earl of arundel and surrey , lord high steward of england , spake to him as follows . your lordship is called here this day before the lords in parliament , to answer to , and to be tryed upon , the impeachment presented to them by the commons house of parliament , in the name of themselves , and all the commons of england : and that their lordships are resolved to hear both the accusation and defence , with all equity . and therefore think fit in the first place , that your lordship should hear the impeachment of high treason read . the impeachment was accordingly read by the clerk of the parliament . a little after the entrance into it , a chair was brought to the prisoner by the gentleman usher , and the prisoner sate down thereon by their lordships direction . after the charge was read , the earl of straffords answer was likewise read . and no more of proceedings that day . only the lord steward said further to the prisoner , that his lordship had heard the whole impeachment of the house of commons read ; and his own answer : on which he hath put himself for trial. that which is now to follow , their lordships have commanded him to say , is the managing of the evidence by those the house of commons shall please to appoint , for the proving of this charge . but likewise they have commanded him to say , that the time being so far spent , it may not be so proper now to proceed further in the business ; that this shall be sate upon only once a day , which will be fittest both for their lordships , and for the house of commons : and that they conceive it will agree with the sense of the house of commons , not to fall into the particular management of the evidence so late , but to defer it till the morrow , at the hour of nine of the clock . my lord of strafford did then desire to know , whether he might with their lordships good leave and favour , say any thing at that time or no. the lord high steward answered , that their lordships commandment is , to let his lordship know , that if the house of commons proceed not by their members to manage the evidence this day , then what his lordship hath to say to this house , may be put off to another time . and so their lordships adjourned to the house above , ( by which is meant the house where the lords use to sit in parliament ) and appointed the next morning to proceed in this business . the second day . tuesday , march . their lordships being set , the lord steward recited in brief the proceedings of the day before , adding , that naturally and properly , it belongs ( in the next place ) for those whom the house of commons have deputed to manage their evidence , in pursuance of the articles of impeachment , to begin the work of the day . then mr. pym , one of the committee appointed for the management of the evidence , began as followeth . my lords , we stand here by the commandment of the knights , citizens and burgesses , now assembled for the commons in parliament . and we are ready to make good that impeachment whereby thomas earl of strafford stands charged in their name , and in the name of all the commons of england , with high treason . this , my lords , is a great cause , and we might sink under the weight of it , and be astonished with the lustre of this noble assembly , if there were not in the cause strength and vigour to support it self , and to encourage us ; it is the cause of the king , it concerns his majesty in the honour of his government , in the safety of his person , in the stability of his crown . it is the cause of the kingdom , it concerns not only the peace and prosperity , but even the being of the kingdom . we have that piercing eloquence , the cries and groans , and tears , and prayers of all the subjects assisting us . we have the three kingdoms , england , and scotland , and ireland , in travail and agitation with us , bowing themselves , like the hindes spoken of in iob , to cast out their sorrows . truth and goodness ( my lords ) they are the beauty of the soul , they are the perfection of all created natures , they are the image and character of god upon the creatures . this beauty , evil spirits , and evil men , have lost ; but yet there are none so wicked , but they desire to march under the shew and shadow of it , though they hate the reality of it . this unhappy earl , now the object of your lordships justice , hath taken as much care , hath used as much cunning to set a face and countenance of honesty and justice upon his actions , as he hath been negligent to observe the rules of honesty in the performance of all these actions . my lords , it is the greatest baseness of wickedness , that it dares not look in his own colours , nor be seen in its natural countenance . but virtue , as it is amiable in all respects , so the least is not this . that it puts a nobleness , it puts a bravery upon the mind , and lifts it above hopes and fears , above favour and displeasure ; it makes it always uniform and constant to it self . the service commanded me and my colleagues here , is to take off those vizards of truth and uprightness , which hath been sought to be put upon this cause , and to shew you his actions and his intentions , in their own natural blackness and deformity . my lords , he hath put on a vizard of truth in these words , ( wherein he says ) that he should be in his defence more careful to observe truth , than to gain advantage to himself . he says , he would endure any thing rather than be saved by falshoood . it was a noble and brave expression if it were really true . my lords , he hath likewise put on the vizard of goodness on his actions , when he desires to recite his services in a great many particulars , as if they were beneficial to the common-wealth and state , whereas we shall prove them mischievous and dangerous . it is left upon me , my lords , to take off these vizards and appearances of truth and goodness , in that part of his answer which is the preamble . and that i shall do with as much faithfulness and brevity as i can . . the first thing ( my lords ) that i shall observe in the preamble is this , that having recited all those great and honourable offices which he hath done under his majesty , he is bold to affirm , that he hath been careful and faithful in the execution of them all . my lords , if he might be his own witness , and his own judge , i doubt not but he would be acquitted . it is said in the proverbs of the adulterous woman , that she wipes her mouth , and says , she had done no evil. here is a wiping of the mouth , here is a verbal expression of honesty . but ( my lords ) the foulness and unjustness will never be wiped off , neither from his heart , nor from his actions ; i mean for the time past , god may change him for the time to come : that is the first thing i observe . . my lords , in the second place , out of his apologetical preamble , i shall observe this , he doth magnifie his own endeavours in five particulars : . that he hath endeavoured the maintenance of religion . ( i may miss in words , i shall not miss in sense . ) . that he hath endeavoured the honour of the king. . the encrease of his revenue . . the peace and honour , and safety of the kingdom . . the quiet and peace of the people . these are his five particulars ; and i shall give a short answer to every one of them . . for religion , ( my lords ) we say , and we shall prove , that he hath been diligent indeed to favour innovations , to favour superstitions , to favour the incroachments and usurpations of the clergy : but for religion it never received any advantage by him , nay , a great deal of hurt . . for the honour of the king : ( my lords ) we say it is the honour of the king that he is the father of his people , that he is the fountain of justice ; and it cannot stand with his honour and justice to have his government stain'd and polluted with tyranny and oppression . . for the increase of his revenue : it is true , there may be some addition of sums ; but we say , there is no addition of strength nor wealth , because in those parts where it hath been increased , this earl hath taken the greatest share himself : and when he hath spoiled and ravined on the people , he hath been content to yield up some part to the king , that he might with more security enjoy the rest . . for the strength and honour , and safety of the kingdom : ( my lords ) in a time of peace he hath let in upon us the calamities of war , weakness , shame and confusion . . and for the quiet of the subjects , he hath been an incendiary , he hath armed us amongst our selves , and made us weak and naked to all the world besides . this is that i shall answer to the second head of his apology . . the third is this , ( my lords ) that by his means many good and wholesome laws have been made since his government in ireland . truly , ( my lords ) if we should consider the particulars of these laws , some of them will not be found without great exception . but i shall make another answer , good laws , nay , the best laws are no advantage when will is set above law , when the laws have force to bind and restrain the subject , but no force to relieve and comfort him . . he says in the fourth place , he was a means of calling a parliament not long after he came to his government . my lords , parliaments without parliamentary liberties , are but a fair and plausible way into bondage ; that parliament had not the liberties of a parliament ; sir pierce crosby for speaking against a bill in the commons house , was sequestred from the council-table , and committed to prison . sir iohn clotworthy , for the same cause , was threatned that he should lose a lease that he had . mr. barnewell , and two other gentlemen , were threatned they should have troops of horse put upon them for speaking in the house . proxies by dozens , were given by some of his favourites : and ( my lords ) parliaments coming in with these circumstances , they be grievances , mischiefs , and miseries ; no works of thanks or honour . . the fifth is , that he hath been a means to put off monopolies , and other projects that would have been grievous and burdensome to the subject ; if he had hated the injustice of a monopoly , or the mischief of a monopoly , he would have hated it in himself ; he himself would have been no monopolist . certainly , my lords , it was not the love of justice , nor the common good , that moved him : and if he were moved by any thing else , he had his reward . it may be it was because he would have no man gripe them in the kingdom but himself ; his own harvest-crop would have been less , if he had had sharers . it may be it was because monopolies hinder trade , he had the customs , and the benefit of the customs would have been less ; when we know the particulars , we shall make a fit and proper answer to them : but in the mean time , we are sure whatsoever was the reason , it was not justice , nor love of truth , that was the reason . . he saith in the sixth place , he had no other commission but what his predecessors had : and that he hath executed that commission with all moderation . for the commission , it was no virtue of his if it were a good commission , i shall say nothing of that . but for the second part , his moderation ; when you find so many imprisoned of the nobility ; so many men , some adjudged to death , some executed without law ; when you find so many publick rapines on the state , soldiers sent to make good his decrees ; so many whippings in defence of monopolies ; so many gentlemen that were jurors , because they would not apply themselves to give verdicts on his side , to be fined in the star-chamber . men of quality to be disgraced , set on the pillory , and wearing papers , and such things , ( as it will appear through our evidence ) can you think there was any moderation . and yet truly , ( my lords ) i can believe , that if you compare his courses with other parts of the world ungoverned , he will be found beyond all in tyranny and harshness ; but if you compare them with his mind and disposition , perhaps there was moderation ; habits we say , are more perfect than acts , because they be nearest the principle of actions . the habit of cruelty in himself ( no doubt ) is more perfect than any act of cruelty he hath committed ; but if this be his moderation , i think all men will pray to be delivered from it : and i may truly say that is verified in him , the mercies of the wicked are cruel . . i come to the seventh , and that is concerning the kings revenue : that he hath improved it from l. to l. and that he hath done it by honourable and just ways . that he hath made the kingdom able to support it self . that he hath improved the kings revenue by many rich and great purchases . that he hath saved the charge of the navy , by bearing l. a year in ireland , which was born here before . and then he says for a conclusion , that he never took money out of the kings exchequer . my lords , i must run over all these . for the enlargement or increase of the revenue of that kingdom , i think there is a little fault in his arithmetick , but i will not charge him with that now . but for his honourable ways of increasing it ; if monopolies , if vexation of the subject , be honourable ways , we shall leave that to your lordships to judge . but most of his increases are made upon monopolies . it is true , there is another way of bargaining , but it hath been mixed with rigour and rapine , and injustice . men have been driven out of their estates ; offices have been found by force . men have been driven to resign their estates : and is this a just way of improving a kings revenue ? that i shall submit to your lordships . then he says , he hath made the kingdom able to support it self : my lords , he that hath no harvest of his own , must glean after another mans reapers . truly , this was none of his work : the kingdom was able to subsist of it self before he came thither . for that we shall appeal to the records of the exchequer , betwixt the year . and the time of his government , which was nine years at least , during which , nothing went out of this kingdom to the support of that island . the l. for the navy , was born in ireland before his time a year or two ; so he comes near the truth of that , yet misses a year of the truth . but if it were true ; hath it been only by the ordinary revenue that it hath supported it self ? he hath had six subsidies ; a year , or two of contribution , which the irish gave towards the supporting of the charge of ireland . it was not his husbanding , nor his managing of the revenue ; and truly if the kingdom were able to support it self , ( as it was before he came thither ) by the revenue of the kingdom , and by the help of that contribution , it would be very fit , ( since there may be many increases since ) to know what is become of l. for six subsidies , and of the contribution money ; and indeed there is a great suspicion , that that went another way but that you may the better observe his husbandry , i shall speak of his last years accompt ; the th of march , ( now something more than a year since ) the under-treasurer delivered an account , on which there was l. remaining in the kings coffers . since that time there hath been received l. for the king. ( i speak of round sums , ( my lords ) i leave out pounds and pence , and such things : this is l. he hath received out of the exchequer in england l. there are debts in ireland , l. and what other debts we know not : here is above l. consumed in a year ; which is almost as much as queen elizabeth consumed in any year when tyrone was in rebellion , and an army of spaniards was there . my lords , he saith he never took money out of the exchequer ; if he rests in that affirmation , it will be very near truth , yet serves but to shadow a falshood , which is worse , to cover and to glaze , under such a colour of truth as that is , a notable falshood . my lords , it is true , he hath taken no money out of the exchequer ; but he could be content to take from the under-treasurer of the exchequer , l. about two years since , and to keep it for his own occasions ; when the kings army was in want : and he paid it in but lately . and before i pass from this matter of the revenue , give me leave to speak something of the increase that comes in by the customs . it is true , there is a great increase ; but if your lordships look to the beginning of that bargain , you shall find the notablest cozenage that ever was offered to a prince , in one that was a sworn servant , and intrusted with so great a charge . it will be more fully opened in the article that concerns the customs ; but i shall speak of it a little : he made a bargain , and under pretence of getting of l. gain to the king , he gave cause of allowances and defalcations ; whereby he took forth of the kings purse l. a year , or very near , which the king had before . he laid new additions of charge on the customs , which came to l. so that on a bargain of giving l. more than was reserved on the former lease , he was sure , that when he made the bargain , of gaining or l. . but i shall pass from the revenue of the crown , to the revenue of the church , ( which is in the th place ) he saith he hath been a great husband for the church , and truly hath brought in many lands to the church ; but he hath brought them in by ways without law , without rules of justice : he hath taken away mens inheritances . and here ( my lords ) is an offering of rapine , an offering of injustice and violence : and will god accept such an offering . must the revenues of the church be raised that way . it is true , it was the more in the way of his own preferment . he knew who sat at the helme here , the archbishop of canterbury ; and such services might win more credit with him . it was not an eye to god and religion ; but an eye to his own preferment . i shall speak no more of that . . i come to the th head ; and that is the building of churches . many churches have been built since his government . truly , my lords , why he should have any credit or honour , if other men builded churches , i know not : i am sure we hear of no churches he hath built himself : if he would have been careful to have set up good preachers , that would have stirred up devotion in men , and made them desirous of the knowledge of god , and by that means made more churches , it had been something ; but i hear nothing of spiritual edification , nothing of the knowledge of god that by his means hath been dispersed in that kingdom . and certainly they that strive not to build up mens souls in a spiritual way of edification , let them build all the material churches that can be , they will do no good ; god is not worshipped with walls , but he is worshipped with hearts . . he saith in the th place , that many orthodox and learned preachers have been advanced by his means ; and the doctrine and discipline of the church of england , by his means protected and defended . my lords , i shall give but two or three paterns of the clergy that he hath preferred . if you will take doctor atherton , he is not to be found now above ground ; for he was hanged for many foul and unspeakable offences . doctor bramhill hath been preferred to a great bishoprick ; but he is a man that now stands charged with high treason : he hath been but few years in ireland , and yet hath laid out at least l. in purchases . i shall name but one chaplain more , and that is one arthur gwyn , who about . was an under-groom to the earl of corke in his stable : in the year after , dr. bramhill preferred him to be a clergy-man ; and a parsonage , and two vicaridges impropriate , were taken from my lord of corke , and given to this arthur gwyn . i shall add no more patterns of his clergy . . i go to the th , and that is concerning the army : he hath many glorious expressions of his service concerning the army ; that they are horse and foot : and that there hath been very few papists soldiers or officers ; and none preferred by himself . truly , i think he says true , or within one of true in this ; for there was but one preferred by himself , and therefore i shall not stand upon that . but he says this army was paid out of the revenue of the crown , which heretofore it was not wont to be . to that i have spoken before , and shewed , that many years before his time all the charges of ireland were born within ireland . he says , ( and i speak that as to the army too ) that neither the arms nor wages have been burdensome to the people of ireland ; but their lodgings and billettings have not been easie , and not without discontent , why ( my lords ) in dublin it self , where they have a charter that exempts them from billetting of soldiers , they have been faign to pay for billetting of soldiers . nay , those soldiers that were servants and dwellers in his own houses , and other places , must have their billetting moneys . and of this there hath been petitions and complaints ; nay , it hath been spoken of in parliament there ; and yet he can tell you , that the marching and laying of soldiers is without burthen and grievance to the people : that was the eleventh . . i go to the th , and that is the great increase of trade : the increase of shipping to one . truly ( my lords ) in a time of peace , and in a growing kingdom as that was , being formerly unhusbanded , it is no wonder , that when land increases in the manurance , and people increase in number , both shipping and trade increases . but it is the advantage of the time , not the advantage of his government ; for ( my lords ) his government hath been destructive to trade : and that will manifestly appear by the multitude of monopolies that he hath exercised in his own person . and that is all i shall speak to the th . . the th is , that justice hath been administred without bribery , without partiality , without corruption ; these are glorious things . but there will as much fall upon him of corruption and injustice , as of any other offence ; and that ( my lords ) will appear to you through the whole course of our evidence : i shall not now speak of the particulars . and that we may not content our selves with particular witnesses only , i shall humbly desire , that the remonstrance of the parliament of ireland , both of the lords and of the commons , may be read : and they will give a sufficient testimony of the quality of his justice . . the th ( my lords ) is this , that he hath been a means to his majesty for a parliament in england . it is true he was : and it is as true , that we count that as mischievous a part of his design , as any thing else . into what a miserable dilemma ( my lords ) did he bring the kingdom , that we must surrender the liberties of the kingdom in parliament , or see them oppressed with force and violence out of parliament . the particulars of this i shall leave for the instant ; for there is an article that concerns this . i have now passed through all the material parts of the apologetical preamble . he concludes with a desire , that he may not be charged with errors of his understanding or judgment , being not bred up in the law , or with weakness , to which humane nature is subject . truly , it would be far from us to charge him with any such mistakes ; no ( my lords ) we shall charge him with nothing but what the law in every mans breast condemns , the light of nature , the light of common reason , the rules of common society : and that will appear in all the articles which my colleagues will offer to you . my lords , i have some few witnesses which i shall desire may be heard to the points i have opened ; and i shall in the first place desire , that sir pierce crosby may be heard concerning the breach of priviledge in parliament : also sir iohn clotworthy , nich. barnewell , nich. plunket , and sir iames montgomery . i have some witnesses to the point of revenue , sir robert pye , sir edward warder , and sir adam loftus . gentlemen , you who are of the committee , i am commanded to let you know , that the lords will allow you all the testimonies you can produce to make good the impeachment ; but the witnesses which you do produce , must be deposed before their lordships . mr. pym replied , my lords , the commons agree to it ; and in the first place we shall call sir pierce crosby , who was sworn accordingly . my lords , i humbly crave leave whether i may not make my exception to any witness . yes , you may . we desire to be heard upon that point of exception , that if my lord of strafford will make any exception why a witness should not be heard at all , it may be according to the rules of justice . the lord high steward declaring , the prisoner might except against the person of the witness , if he have just cause , my lord of strafford proceeded in substance as followeth : my lords , i humbly conceive , that i have against this gentleman sir pierce crosby , just occasion of exception , ( as not being a competent witness ) for that the said sir pierce hath been sentenced in the star-chamber , for a very undue practise against me , tending to no less than the taking away of my life , charging me , ( and practising to prove it by testimony of witness ) that i had killed a man in ireland , whom i protest , i did never so much as touch . that ever since ( the said sir pierce having broke prison , and made an escape out of the fleet ) he hath remained abroad , and never came hither till such time as the parliament sate here ; and now is returned to make complaint in this business against me , or indeed against the court of star-chamber rather : and standing thus , whether the said sir pierce shall be allowed a witness against me , i humbly refer it to your lordships judgments . my lords , we expected my lord of strafford would have shown on what reason sir pierce was censured ; for a man criminous in one kind , may be nevertheless fit to give testimony in another kind . if it be a particular practice against my lord of strafford , when their lordships have heard what that practice was , and have heard likewise the witness , they will believe him according to the weight of the testimony , compared with the fault , or whatsoever else is in the sentence . but in the mean time , they conceive it is no exception , but that the witness should be heard , this that is charged on my lord of strafford , being a crime of high treason , it concerns the common-wealth , the king being party , and not the witness that is produced . and whereas it is informed that sir pierce crosby brake prison : the gentleman tells us it is not so ; he paid the kings fine , and so was discharged . but though he had , it will not take away his testimony when he is present ; which he said , he spake only to give satisfaction to that aspersion . i must desire their lordships directions , whether sir pierce crosby be allowed , notwithstanding my lord of straffords exceptions against him , and mr. maynards allegations why his testimony should be given in this case , or no : and divers of their lordships called to have the house adjourned to the house above , that they might there debate and determine it . mr. pym did thereupon offer , that they will at present lay him aside till their lordships have had opportunity to consider , and bring him again to morrow ; whereunto mr. maynard added this further : we desire rightly to express our selves to your lordships , we will lay him aside till your lordships have heard others , not that they wave him wholly : and we pray it may be so entred , the lord steward declaring it so to be . it is so understood . in the next place , we desire that sir iohn clotworthy may be called , whom we produce to this point , that during the parliament in ireland , for speaking against a bill in the commons house , he was threatned by sir george ratcliffe , ( whom we take to be bound up in one cause with my lord of strafford , and to be moved by my lord of straffords spirit ) and that parliaments are not priviledges , when parliament liberties are not observed . sir iohn clotworthy was sworn : my lords , we desire he may be asked , whether for having delivered his opinion against a bill preferred to the parliament in ireland by the earl of strafford , about the th year of this king , he was not asked by sir george ratcliffe , concerning a lease that he had ; the question intimating a threat , that he should suffer for speaking so freely ? to which he answered , my lords , in the th year of the king , i serving in ireland in parliament , did vote against a bill ; as soon as i had voted against it , sir george ratcliffe , being one of the tellers , on his counting the numbers , how many yea's , and how many no's , he came to me , and said thus , have not you a lease in such a place ? i told him yea ; remember that , saith he : this is all i can remember . and this ( he added ) was in the commons house . . he being interrogated whether he knew any thing of sir pierce crosbies commitment , or no ? he answered , i know it only by hear-say , he was a member of the house when i had the honour to serve ; i heard the expression of sir george ratcliffe at that time : and the common voice was , that he was under restraint ; but i saw him not . being asked whether there was any other occasion of these words but his said vote : he answered , truly ( my lords ) i can apprehend none . . being asked whether he heard sir george ratcliffe threaten sir pierce crosby in parliament : he answered , i heard sir pierce crosby speaking against a bill in parliament ; and as soon as he had sate down from speaking against the bill , sir george ratcliffe said to him , that is not privy-councellor like , or to that purpose , i heard him . to the point of sir pierce crosbies being sequestred from the council upon his speaking in parliament . the lord ranulagh being sworn , was interrogated whether about the th year of the king , he knew exception to be taken against sir pierce crosby , for delivering his opinion in parliament ; and what proceedings were against him thereupon : he answered , ( my lords ) to the best of my remembrance , sir pierce crosby being a privy-councellor in ireland , was charged at the council-board for voting against a bill that was transmitted by the lord deputy and council ; and hereupon the opinion of the board was asked ; and by the advice of that board sir pierce crosby was sequestred from the council . this is as much as i can remember . . being asked by whom he was sequestred : he answered , by the deputy and the council . . being asked who began the question : he answered , my lord deputy charged him . my lords , i humbly desire that my lord ranulagh may be asked , whether when things are handled at the council-table , the deputy be not the man that propounds them to the council or no ; not as a party complaining , but as belonging to the duty of his place : and how he behaved himself in that business . to which the lord ranulagh being interrogated , answered , it is the constant course for the deputy to propose the things that be brought to the board ; and seldom doth any of the council propound any thing ; but the proposition comes from the deputy . but being further asked on the committees motion , whether this of sir pierce crosbies came to the board by motion of my lord alone , or that any other moved him in it , or conveyed it to him : he answered , i cannot charge my memory where it had beginning ; but as i remember , my lord deputy wandesford that died last , and mr. wandsford , and sir george ratcliffe , were movers of it ; but whether it moved originally from them , or from my lord himself , i know not , i rather believe it proceeded from my lord deputy , as being proper for him . the lord mountnorris sworn and interrogated , whether he was present at council-table when sir pierce crosby was sequestred from council-table ; and for what reasons he was sequestred : he answers , i was then present at board , and he was removed on complaint made by sir george ratcliffe at the board , touching his voting of a bill in parliament : and when he said it was not spoken like a councellor , he said , he would answer it to him that made him a councellor . that was the effect , as i can remember , of his accusation ; and there were several others that testified the same words that sir george ratcliffe accused him of , and that was the reason he was sequestred by most voices at council-table , though he had many votes with him . and being further asked , what my lord of straffords vote was : he answered , it was for his sequestration . mr. nicholas barnewell sworn ; being asked , whether for his delivering his opinion in parliament , sir george ratcliffe did ask whether the said mr. barnewell's house was capacious to receive men , to be laid upon him ; intimating thereby , that he must look for soldiers to be laid upon him for that reason : he answered , there was a debate in the house concerning certain boroughs sequestred from the house by reason of a judgment in the exchequer , which the house conceived an erronious judgment , and were of opinion that the old boroughs should be called in ; i was of that opinion , sir george ratcliffe was of another opinion ; and would have another question debated : and coming out of the house , he asked me , will not your house hold five hundred men ? i answered , you know what my house will hold as well as my self ; and i smiling at it , he answered , but it is no laughing matter , you shall have men laid on you . i desire it may be asked , when this was spoken : he answered , it was in november last ; and that my lord of strafford was not then in the kingdom . mr. pym observed , that the spirit of my lord of strafford could move in sir george ratcliffe , wheresoever it was spoken ; and mr. barnewell added , it was done in november then last . in the next place , we shall shew the untruth of that part of my lord of straffords preamble , that says , the soldiers in ireland are disposed with so much contentment to the people , that they are no burden to them . mr. egor was called for a witness , and sworn . being interrogated whether he knew of any soldiers billetted in dublin ? whether they were not a grievance ? whether that city hath not a special charter of exemption ? he answered , may it please your lordships , the city of dublin doth bear the charge of horse , and pays to them l. a month for billetting ; which is conceived they should not bear , in regard they have a charter that says , nullus mareschallus capiat hospitium intra civitatem ; and therefore they conceive it a heavy burden , and it is as much as a subsidy : and another part of the city standing in another county , pays l. a month ; so they pay in all l. a month . i humbly desire he may be asked , whether before my lord of straffords time , and as long as he can remember , the lord-deputies foot-guard , and horse-companies , were not billetted in dublin ? he answered , to the foot-guard , when my lord of faulkland was there , they gave lodging continually ; but it was never drawn to matter of money : and till now we had never horse upon us , except it were for a month , or so . in the next place , we humbly desire the remonstrance of the nobility , and the house of commons in ireland , might be read as testimonies of my lord of straffords justice . i desire to know whether questions are to be asked of matters not contained in the charge , as the remonstrance is not . my lords , the subverting of the laws , and corruption in government and justice , is generally laid in the charge ; and he hath answered , that he hath administred justice with integrity : and this we produce to shew , that the frontespiece of his answer , is in that part untrue . to prove the truth of the copy of the lords remonstrance now produced , the lord digby of ireland was sworn ; and he on his oath said , that the copy was delivered him at his coming over , by the clerk of the lords house in ireland , to be brought over hither by order of the lords there . and the lord baltinglasse deposed , that he knew it to be the clerks hand ; and they were both present at the voting of it . the same was read , bearing date february . . the protestation and declaration of the lords spiritual and temporal in parliament assembled ; we desire to apply it to disprove part of the preamble of my lord of straffords answer . i desire my lord digby may be asked whether he gave his vote to this protestation ; we produce it not as the act of any particular man , but of the lords . your lordships may observe , that this is fallen out since my impeachment of high treason here : and that it is followed by faction and correspondence , as in time might be made appear , if i could undertake it ; and a strong conspiracy against me . my lords , these words are not to be suffered ; charging the house of commons with faction , correspondency , and conspiracy , we desire your lordships justice in this . god forbid i should think there was , or could be any thing in that house , or any member of it , but that which agrees with truth and justice , and equity . i must profess to your lordships , i had no reflection or intention , either upon the lords house there , or upon the honourable house of commons here ; but upon certain persons that are not members of the house here , that have correspondency with them in ireland , that are not members of the house there . we must consult with the house of commons concerning the prosecution of this exception to his words ; and in the mean time we will reserve it to our selves ; and so we shall proceed . we desire the remonstrance made by the house of commons in ireland , ( being deposed unto by patrick gough , that about february . it was delivered him , sealed up in a box , with other things , before his face ; being called on by the house to be brought to the committee for irish affairs in england ) may be read . which remonstrance was read accordingly . your lordships may observe , that my lord of straffords glorious declaration of his own merits , was confuted by the whole parliament ; and that the whole sum of the charge , is confirmed by the testimony of all ireland . to the point of revenue of ireland ; for the contradicting of my lord of straffords affirmation , that ireland supporteth its own charge ; sir edward warder produced , and sworn , was interrogated when the last money was sent out of this kingdom for support of his majesties affairs of ireland : he answered , the last money sent over for payment of the army there , was in the term of easter , . and it was l. in full of l. for one whole years charge , beginning the first of april , . and ending the last of march following ; which was iac. being interrogated , whether since that time the state here hath been actually charged with the affairs of ireland . he answered , nothing hath been issued out of the receipt of his majesties exchequer for the maintenance of ireland since this time , only such moneys as have been lately issued for the army , and what hath been issued to the treasurer of the navy , and the officers of it , for the maintaining of ships on the coast ; but otherwise , no money hath been issued as a constant setled thing out of the receipt of his majesties exchequer , for any thing arising since the last of march , . i desire he may be asked what was since issued for the navy . we admit that the charge of the navy continued divers years after , yet a few years before my lord of straffords government it was taken off too . the manager did so open it , and sir edward warder did in effect set it forth so : therefore that question was waved . sir robert pye produced , and sworn to that point of revenue ; and being interrogated to the same purpose , answered , no money hath issued out of the receipt , but as sir edward warder delivered it ; and i know of no other money , but only for the maritime parts , something hath been paid to the treasurer of the navy : and besides the l. of late , i know not any . the lord mountnorris was called upon ; and being asked whether the charge of l. a year for the navy of ireland , was not taken off a year before my lord of straffords government : he answered , i cannot say the sum was l. but two of the whelps employed there before my lord of strafford came to the government , were defrayed ; whether wholly , or in part , i cannot tell , but they had good large sums of money , and were paid in the kingdom . i desire my lord mountnorris may be asked , whether when i came to the government , the constant charge did not exceed the constant revenue ; and how much ? it is true , the irish gave sixscore thousand pounds towards the charge ; so that the supply came out of ireland , though not out of the constant revenue of ireland : but it came not out of this kingdom . he further answered , the constant revenue did not do it , there was a contribution by loan from the country , to supply it ; but before my lord of faulkland went over , i heard my lord of middlesex tell him , they must look for no more money , england had nourished ireland long enough , she must now live upon her own milk. the reason why money did not go out , was because l. was supplyed by a contribution ; notwithstanding which , when he came to serve the king in that kingdom , the crown was indebted very near l. sterling . he hath received l. for subsidies . it will appear on accompts , to be bestowed faithfully and justly every penny , for the king. to the point of my lord of straffords taking of l. of the kings money , and disposing it for a year and a half , notwithstanding his majesties wants , and the necessities of the army . sir adam loftus vice-treasurer , produced and sworn , was interrogated , whether my lord of strafford had not l. out of the kings revenue ? and how long time ? and when was it paid in ? he answered , my lord of strafford and sir george ratcliffe , had never a penny out of the exchequer , but on such warrants as i durst not deny them , for their due entertainment , and other things importing his majesties service . but i must confess , that they being partners in the customs , some moneys were to be paid for the profits of the customs which were in arrear ; and sir george ratcliffe moved me to give discharges for it , and he would give me my lord lieutenants bond , and his own , for paying of it upon demand ; which i accepted of , and accordingly did give those discharges . whence observe , discharges are money ; for so much money should have been paid in , and if it be intercepted , the king wants his money . being asked what was the sum ; and how long was it kept : he answered , the sum , as i take it , was l. on one bond , and l. on another ; and as i take it , it was in the year , . being asked again , how long it was kept : he answered , it was paid lately ; within these three months . whence observe , it was since the questioning of him in parliament . the parliament proves a good officer for the king there . i shall reserve my self to give full satisfaction to this in its proper time , it being part of my charge ; but at present i desire sir adam loftus may be ask'd the question , whether when i came into that kingdom , the constant revenue fell not short of the constant charge , at least l. a year . we except against interlocutory discourses ; and having now concluded this part of the charge , we desire , that if my lord of strafford would say any thing in answer to what hath been now said , he might say it presently , else we should be on great disadvantages . my lords , i conceive the proposition to be fair ; and it is that which i desire , my memory being weak , and not versed in these kinds of proceedings : i intended to have made it my humble suit for longer time to answer to this days proceedings , but shall readily answer every particular article in order as they go along ; and shall obey and observe the order proposed . but as to these things which i did not expect , as the remonstrances , and other matters opened , being not in this particular charge , i humbly crave your lordships leave and liberty , to recollect my self , and then i will give them the best answer i can . for to answer them suddenly i confess i am not so well fitted , as i trust i shall be . and i desire leave to say in the presence of almighty god , that i shall desire to be delivered from the afflictions that god almighty hath laid on me for my sins , no other way than as in the intention of my heart , and endeavour of my mind , i have been most faithful and true to his majesty and the common-wealth ; and i well trust and hope , that by the time all these things come to conclusion , and have been fully heard , i shall recover in great measure , the favour and good opinion of the honourable house of commons ; in which house , i have spent a great part of my time : and i doubt not but it is known to divers that sit here , what my carriage and behaviour hath been there . and i desire no more , ( and i am sure it will be granted , they are so just and good ) but that they will reserve towards me , an opinion of charity , that i give such an account , as may preserve me to be the same in their opinion , that i was formerly . i was never yet impeached in my private conversation , of untruth , and hope they will think of me charitably , till they have heard the whole business ; and i doubt not but i shall take off , in great part , their hard opinion , and procure to my self , their compassion and favour ; and that i shall go in peace and quietness to my grave , leaving all publick employments whatsoever . and i humbly beseech the house of commons , to incline a gracious opinion to me , so far forth , that i am the same man in opinion , that i was when i was one of them ; and i doubt not but this , out of their nobleness and goodness , they will afford me . but for these particulars , i humbly crave , that with your lordships good leave , i may have a little time with my self to consider them , because they be new ; and for the rest , i shall obey your lordships order , and give them thanks . no exception is taken , but to what is affirmed in his own answer ; and the commons will think it another mans answer , and not his own , if he be not ready to make good the truth of it . these things should not be new ; for every man should be ready to maintain his own assertions . i am ( my lords ) in an unknown way , being not versed in these things ; if i might have had the assistance of council , it would have been a great ease to me : but it is not possible for me to recollect all which the worthy gentleman hath said so materially , and with so much weight . matters of fact i could answer to , article by article ; but to answer presently so great and tedious a discourse , so well delivered , and so weighty , i profess i am not able ; my memory being not able to carry it . but if your lordships would please , out of your nobleness and goodness , to give me respite to recollect my self to these things that be generalities , i should be able to give a good accompt thereof , protesting seriously , that i think every part of the preamble to be very just and true ; and i hope , under favour , to make it appear so , when i shall shew those things which have not yet been so fully informed and known , as i trust they may be hereafter . my lords , we humbly desire , that since my lord of strafford is not ready to give satisfaction to what hath been disproved in his answer , we may proceed to that which he is ready to give answer and satisfaction to ; and that my lord of strafford might understand , that if he answers not now what hath been said concerning the preamble , he must have no time to answer it hereafter . i appeal to your lordships ; and i renew my request , that i may for these , have time to recollect my thoughts till next day : if it may not be granted , i beseech your lordships to bear with many of my infirmities , being very great , both in body and mind ; and to consider , that my sad condition doth some way plead for a little compassion and favour , i being in a way i was never in before , and having not the great parts that others have . yet rather than i should be thought to abuse your lordships with untruths , i will do the best i can to maintain my answer presently ; being confident , through the blessing of almighty god , that though the particulars thereof are delivered with a great deal of weakness and disadvantage , yet your lordships shall find them truths , my own heart ( i protest before god ) telling me so ; and hope that god will give me help and assistance to make it appear so : and other than that i desire not to be ; for if i were the man i am represented , i were not worthy to live : i confess , the honourable house of commons have proceeded against me with all reason and justice that can be ; being informed as they were , they could do no less ; if they had done less , they had not performed their trust with that fulness they should ; and therefore i find no fault with them . but i beg leave to express a truth as well as god shall enable me ; hoping it will appear , that all i have said is true , as all is true to my knowledge . and i know it is in the heart of every man that hears me , that i should have time to clear a truth ; no man can deny it : and therefore i humbly pray , i may not be suddenly taken , protesting seriously , i have said nothing but what i knew , or verily believed to be true . we pray your lordships resolution in this point , before we proceed any further . their lordships thereupon adjourned to the upper-house ; and about half an hour after , returned . i am commanded to impart their lordships resolution , that since the commons do not press these things as matters of crime , but rather upon the matter of truth , they conceive my lord of strafford need not further time for these particulars . and that if his lordship will make any answer to these particulars , he is to do it now . i shall never do other than readily obey whatsoever your lordships should please to command me , my heart paying you obedience ; and so in truth shall every thing that proceeds from me . the question ( i observe ) is matter of truth , or not truth , in the preamble ( as they call it ) of this my answer ; and to that , with all the humility and modesty in the world , i will apply my self , as not conceiving it any way becoming me to speak any thing of sharpness in any kind , but with all humility and reverence to bear all these afflictions , with acknowledgment unto almighty god , and to lay them so to my heart , that they may provide for me in another world , where we are to expect the consummation of all blessedness and happiness . and therefore to lay aside all these aggravations by words , wherewith i have been set forth to your lordships ( only with this ) that i trust i shall make my self appear a person otherwise in my dispositions and actions , than i have been rendred ; and shortly and briefly , i shall fall upon the very points , as near as i can , that were mentioned by that noble gentleman ; and if i should forget any , i desire to be remembred of them , that i may give the best answer i can on a suddain ; with this protestation , that if i had had time , i should have given a far clearer answer , than on the sudden i shall be able to do . i will take them as they lye in order : and the first thing in this answer is , that in ireland , by my means , many good laws were made for increase of the kings revenue , and for good of the church and common-wealth ; and this i humbly conceive , was not denied directly , only it was inferr'd , that laws were of no use where will was put above law. that these laws were made , the acts of parliament that are extant , and visible things , do make appear ; for ( though i might express it darkly , by reason i understood not matters of law ) the truth of it is , before such time as i came there , the statutes of wills and uses , and fraudulent conveyances , were not of force in ireland ; by which there was a very great mischief that fell many ways , both on the king , and specially on the english planters : for by want of these statutes , no man knew when he had a good title ; and old entayles would be set on foot , and by that means the later purchaser avoided ; by which means there was a great loss and prejudice to the king in his wards ; which by these laws are setled , and the laws of ireland brought much nearer the laws of england than before . and in this point i conceive i am not absolutely gainsayed , but only conditionally , that is , that notwithstanding this , i have set up another government , arbitrary , and tyrannical . to which , i shall not now trouble your lordships with an answer , that being in the particulars of my charge . and thus i think the first to be fairly and clearly answered . then , that there were more parliaments in the time of my government , than in years before . there were two in my time ; and if i might call witnesses , it would appear , that there were not so many within that time before ; but being not material to my defence or condemnation , i will not trouble your lordships with proof , unless you will require it ; i having them here , that i think can make it good . and whereas in my answer i deny that i ever had hand in any project or monopoly ; and that i did prevent divers , that otherwise would have passed : i said that , under favour , with all duty and confidence ; i must still affirm it , that i never had hand or share in any manner of monopoly or project whatsoever , unless the tobacco-business were a monopoly , which , under favour , i shall clear not to be ; but that being part of my charge , i think it impertinent now to give answer unto it ; but will satisfie your lordships in that behalf , in proper time and place : but more than that of tobacco , i say absolutely and directly , i never had my hand or share in any monopoly or project ; nay , i did , as murh as i could , oppose all of them , particularly the monopoly of iron-pots ; for which , i reserve my self to answer as part of my charge : and a new book of rates , whereby it was proposed , that the rates of the kings customs might be increased . and this i did oppose and disavow , albeit i was a sharer in the farm , and consequently should have had the benefit and advantage of it for my proportion ; and by the kings gracious goodness ( when his majesty came to be more fully and clearly informed of it ) it was stopped , and never went on : and this i will make appear in that point of the articles that concern the customs . the fourth is , that i have not had any greater power , or larger commission , than my predecessors in that government have had ; which i conceive , under favour , is not controverted , but granted , and therefore stands good to me ; or if it were controverted , i am able to make it appear , that i have brought in nothing more than was formerly accustomed in the point of the deputies-commission . the next thing in my answer is , that the revenue of ireland was never able to support it self before my coming thither ; and that i say still , with all humility and duty , is most true : and i trust to make it apparently true presently , if your lordships will give me leave to call for , and examine my witnesses . it being the proofs your lordships will look to , and not to what was only alledged by that worthy gentleman : and further than your lordships shall find proved , i desire not to be believed . the proof offered against me , is by sir edward warder , and sir robert pye , who testified , that from the year . nothing went out of the kings exchequer to supply the irish affairs , saving only for the maritime occasions . and this i believe to be true ; for they be gentlemen of credit that speak it : and i will believe them on their words , much more on their oathes . but ( under favour ) there was for eight years together before my coming , a contribution of l. a year paid by the country ; which was no part of the kings revenue , nor as i conceive , ever came into accompt , nor was paid into the exchequer , as will appear on the fifteenth article ; but was a gift of the country , and applyed to the kings occasions : and that determined , the revenue fell short l. of the charge . besides , when i came into ireland , the crown was extreamly indebted , above ( as i think ( not to stand on particular sums and pence ) l. sterling . and by the gentleman 's own saying , when i came out of ireland , i left l. in the kings coffers : and if any ask where the accompt for the subsidies is , there is l. debt paid , l. left in the kings coffers ; ( for it appears by sir adam loftus , that there was l. in the exchequer when i came from thence ) there was l. employed for buying land , that yields the king l. a year . and so much of my lord of ormond , as yields l. a year : so that the accompts will shew the bestowing of the subsidies , with as much advantage as might be , for the kings service . that the revenue was short , i could make appear clearly . the occasion that no money came out of the exchequer , was accidental , by a contribution of the country , no revenue of the kings . and if that had not been supplyed , there had been no possibility of defraying the ordinary charges of the crown out of the revenue ; and that is the point wherein i differ from the gentleman , his meaning being , that the ordinary revenue of the kingdom could not bear the ordinary charge of the kingdom . and i desire that sir adam loftus and sir robert dillom , may be examined upon such questions as shall be propounded in this point . your lordship may examine them , but not upon oath . i will not displease , but perfectly obey in every thing . it will not be denied , but the revenue is increased by such means as my lord of strafford hath increased it by ; yet it was not the natural revenue , but the additional part , that came in by the bounty of the country , that supported the charge many years before my lord of strafford came : so that if it be said ireland supported not it self before he came thither , in the general sense it is untrue ; if it be said in a special sense , that the kings proper revenue did not support it , that his lordship says is true . whence i infer , that it was not much material to insist on this , for i meant it so ; and it is plain and clear , that the kings revenue there was not able to bear the charge of that kingdom , by very near l. or l. a year : and it is now able to bear its own charges , and yet there is an increase of charge by horse ; by which , the army is stronger than it was . and whereas it is said , i was short in the shipping ; i affirm , that under favour , i was not . it is true , that in the time of the late justices , my lord of corke , and my lord loftus , the last years charge of the shipping was paid forth of ireland : but it is as true , that when the kingdom underwent the charge , they lessened the charge of the kings army , by striking off from the army ; and transferred the charge of their pay , to the easing of the kings revenue on the navy . but that charge being now increased again , and brought to the former certainty , i conceive i might truly say , there was in my time an ease to the crown of england , ( all things considered ) which formerly it had not : it being not with the prejudice of the kings service elsewhere , or lessening the standing army , which in all times hath been the strongest support of the kings justice , and ministers there ; and which it deeply concerns the crown of england , to keep in such a condition , that they may be responsible to the king for the services he shall command : so that though the shipping charge was paid the last year , yet so paid , that the kings army was weakened foot ; whereas now it is paid , and the kings army raised to a certainty again ; and a change is made to the better ; for instead of foot , there is horse . and that i say , my lord of corke remembers very well , there being letters of his , that sir pierce crosby his regiment , should be put off , and the money for maintenance thereof , should go to defray the charge of the kings ships , for guard of the coast. and yet the charge is much more now than it was ; for the charge was then only two whelpes , as my lord mountnorris said : and now there be three ships , the swallow , a ship of the third rank , and two lesser vessels ; so that i conceive my answer , in my sense , was true . for the matter of having money out of the exchequer , i conceive my answer to contain no matter of untruth ; for i had out of the exchequer only l. and for that the king will be answered l. a year good fee-farm rent , in lieu of it ; which he thought was no ill bargain . it is true , ( i say ) the money spoken of by sir adam loftus , was borrowed on my own , and sir george ratcliffes bond , to be paid upon sight . at that time ( i praise god ) i had credit for l. and at this time ( i thank god for that too ) i have not credit for d. gods will be done , i obey it . but this money is honestly and justly paid ; where is the crime then ? might not i borrow of a gentleman that would trust me with money , but it must be an offence ? it is true , it was of the kings money ; but the king had no use for it at that time . had not i made use of it , it must otherwise have lain in the exchequer , and yielded no profit ; and besides , i borrowed it of one that was accomptable for it . but since i am put to it , i will shew that which will clear it from being a crime indeed ; which according to the duty i owe unto his majesty , my master , his command hitherto have i kept private to my self : and that is the kings warrant , being all of his own hand writing . sir adam loftus , being then vice-treasurer , and now demanded the question , whether that warrant was produced to him at the borrowing of the money , confessed , that my lord of strafford never told him of the warrant . the warrant was read , containing a licence to make use of l. of his majesties treasure , now in the hands of his majesties vice-treasurer , for three years ; provided , that for security , there be always left in the hands of the comptrollers , a stock of tobacco , amounting to l. at the least ; with a direction to conceal this particular favour to him , that it might not be brought into precedent . there was accordingly so much tobacco left . but , by what law i know not , the magazines are seized on by order from the commons house of parliament , my goods possessed , and given over to others , to sell at their own prices ; my people imprisoned , as if they had been traytors goods , and as if an inquisition had been found upon me as a traytor . and this is my misfortune , to be very hardly dealt withall by the commons house there , to say no more . and whereas by the kings goodness i had liberty to take l. i took but l. and where i had liberty to take it for three years , ( which expires not till michaelmas next ) i paid it in long before the time . and by this one particular i hope it will appear to your lordships , and the gentlemen of the house of commons , how noble it will be to believe charitably of me , till they hear all can be said ; for i trust , in the whole course of this trial , to appear an honest man. and whereas i said , i never had but l. out of the exchequer , and yet had l. borrowed as aforesaid . the king commanded me i should not take notice of his gracious favour ; and therefore i conceive , that in duty to my master i ought not to have taken notice of it , otherwise my answer should have clearly and plainly exprest it : i never having disobeyed his majesty , nor , by the grace of god , never will. for the l. for the guard of the irish coast , that was mentioned already ; and i shall not need to answer it further . to the point of restoring the possessions of the church in a great measure ; i say , there was not only a restitution , but a preservation by an act of parliament , for preserving the possessions of the church from being mis-used by the present incumbent , to the prejudice of the successors ; which act , i wish were in england : but that i conceive not to be controverted , but granted me . but it is said , the possessions of the church were restored in an illegal way , to please my lord of canterbury : to which i answer , the gentleman indeed spake it , but there is no proof of it , neither hath he offered any proof ; and till it be proved , i conceive it not fit to trouble your lordships with answering it : i have done nothing in church or common-wealth , but justly and uprightly . albeit i conceive it a hard case , that having the honour to be the kings deputy sitting in council , where there be twenty who voted as well as my self , that i should be noted to answer for them all , though i did constantly submit my self to the major part . and as to my lord of canterbury , i beseech your lordships to think , that what i have done for the church of ireland , was out of a faithful conscience to god almighty , out of a desire to increase the religion i profess , and which i will witness with my blood , by the blessing of almighty god , if there should be occasion . and when i have done it with respect to that piety of his gracious majesty , which i would faithfully pay him. i desire it may not be put upon me , as done in an respect only to my lord of canterbury , where no such thing is proved : no , i did it out of conscience , my duty to god , to the king , and to the people , that they might be instructed in the way to eternal life . and i beseech your lordships to believe , i have a heart a little greater than to do any such thing to please any man living , with modesty be it spoken . for the building of churches , i confess , i built not any ; and in my answer i said no more , but that churches were built ; which the worthy gentleman acknowledged in some part . i confess they were not built by me , or at my particular charge ; nor do i say otherwise in my answer : and it had been a vain thing to have said it , though i had done it my self . but it is said , the answer is not right , in saying there be divers worthy church-men preferred ; and three are instanced in , bishop atherton , the bishop of d. and one gwyn : to this i beseech your lordships , that i may be bold to let the gentlemen know , that bishopricks are not in the gift of the deputy , but of the king ; and that he is not responsible for what the king doth . but not desiring to deny any thing that is true , i confess , i think bishop atherton was unknown to his majesty ; and that i my self recommended him to the bishoprick ; and at that time i thought the bishop a person fit for that charge : but suppose he had a secret fault of his own , ( god knows it was unknown to me ) may not a man be deceived in his judgement of a man , but this shall be turned against him ? it is a very easie thing for a man to cover his faults from the eye of the world ; i thought him not a vicious man , he proved so , and he had his merit , he suffered for it : and unless i had the inspection of almighty god , i suppose , this cannot be laid to my charge ; if any private end or respect should appear in the doing of it , i desire no more of your lordships favour ; and i profess , i had rather be out of the world , than not have the favour of your lordships , and the honourable house of commons ; of whom i desire , that they would hear me with that equity that they hear every thing . for the bishop of d. all that is mentioned against him is , that he is impeached of high treason by the commons house of parliament in ireland : and how the bishop will acquit himself i know not ; but for that the bishop must answer for himself , not i. this bishop hath lived in my house a long time , as my chaplain ; and i humbly recommended him to that bishoprick , taking him ( and i hope he will so approve himself ) to be a very learned man , and that i think no body will deny : certainly he hath the elements to make him a very worthy church-man as most i know . for that gwyn , i profess i never heard of him before , nor do i know him ; but recollecting my thoughts , i think he was recommended to me by my lord of d. for in matters of the church i did use that gentleman ; and if i were to begin the world again , i would use him still , holding him a very honest worthy man : and i think there was some rectory or impropriation that the earl of corke had possession of , which was restored to the church ; and it was of so small and trivial a value , that they knew not who to get to serve the cure ; and on that occasion this man was recommended to it : and i think , that if it shall come to be examined , thirty pounds a year will go far in his preferment . and if such a thing should happen , and miscarry in his hands , it is no such hainous crime as is objected . but i desire leave to shew what i have done in this kind instead of this mr. gwyn ; and your lordships may see a list of those i have preferred to the church of ireland , and perhaps they may be known to some of your lordships , and to many gentlemen of the house of commons . and first i say , i preferred mr. gray , and have done for him according to the means i had by the favour and goodness of the king ; perhaps he hath that which is worth , or , or l. a year by my gift . and this mr. gray ( if i be not mistaken ) was sometimes chaplain to a noble person that sits on the earls bench ; and if it were material further to enquire of him , i might give satisfaction what he is . i likewise brought into that kingdom mr. tilson , now bishop of elphin , and sometimes fellow of university colledge of oxford , a most worthy , honest , religious person he is ; and those that know him , i am sure will give him that testimony . i likewise preferred dr. margetson , dean of christs church ; he was of cambridge , and a worthy man. mr. forward , dean of drummore , an oxford man ; who if he were known , would appear worthy of that preferment . mr. dean cressy an oxford man. mr. roade , dean of derry , a cambridge man , of sydney colledge . dr. wentworth , dean of armagh , of oxford . dr. price , dean of conaught , of christs church in oxford . mr. thorpe , a cambridge man. i preferred likewise one mr. parry , whom i found in ireland ; but all the rest i brought , and sent for out of england : nay , i sent for them , and did those things for them before they did ask the question , or knew of it ; that being a means , under gods blessing , to conform that kingdom to the church of england . and these , and far greater numbers than these , to my best judgment and understanding , i made use of as instruments to gods glory , his true service , and the reducing of the people to the profession of the same religion that 's here in england ; and for no other end . but concerning my carriage of the trust reposed in me by the king , touching these ecclesiastical preferments , i desire no other testimony or witness for me , but the lord primate of ireland , who is sick , and cannot come hither : to whom i will appeal , whether i have not in my preferring to the church preferments , carried my self with all clearness and care i could possibly . to the point of increasing of protestants ; if your lordships please to hear any thing in that kind , i shall call my lord dillon , and sir adam loftus , who if they should be asked , whether there be more protestants in dublin now than when i first came thither ? i doubt not but they would give an account of a greater number . we charge him not upon this point ; so it was set aside . my preferring of none but protestant officers , if i mistook not , the noble gentleman did acknowledge . to the disposing of the army without grievance to the subject ; i leave that , ( which was spoken with so much advantage and ability , above any thing that from such a poor man as my self , could be expected ) and proceed to that which was proved ; observing , that one only testimony was produced , ( viz. ) alderman i. who said , they have a special charter at dublin to exempt them from billetting of soldiers . but whether it be so or no , it hath ever been denyed by the deputies : and by his own confession , the foot-companies of my lord of faulkland were billetted in dublin . and whereas it was said they had lodgings , not money , that was altered upon a composition with the soldiers , who can expect only lodging ; but if for the ease of the town they will allow the soldier money , and leave him to provide for himself , it is all one . for the horse-troops , my own is , and ever since i was there , hath been billetted in dublin . and it is in the power of the deputy to garrison part of the king's army where he pleases , and without controversie , hath been so at all times . and i desire that my lord ranulagh may be asked , whether the soldiers of the company he hath , be not billetted in athlone , at least some part of it . it is true , my lord of faulkland's troop was not billetted in dublin ; but they were in the counties round about , which was more chargeable . and besides , here is produced but one single witness ; and i hope my own answer may stand equal , and in as much credit , as a single testimony , that on the matter , confesses the thing in a great part . for the increase of shipping , the gentleman question'd it not ; and really there is now tun for one , that was there before my coming . and if i had time to send into ireland for the certificates of the officer of the ports , ( the surveyor , i think ) who views the ports once a year , it should appear to your lordships , that i have not abused you , nor the honourable gentlemen that hear me . and whether that be an argument that the trade and wealth of the kingdom is improved , ( i appeal to all that hear me ) when the shipping doth so much increase : and the customs , which were not above l. a year , are come to l. and that on the same book of rates . concerning the sentencing of jurors , and the questioning of them in the star-chamber . it is true , divers of their sentences were past : and to those sentences i refer my self , till something be proved against the truth and justice of them . and i think it will stand with your lordships goodness , to judge the best of the court of castle-chamber , wherein the deputy hath but one voice , they being the king's ministers , and standing upon their oathes to do their duties : but i think in my conscience , there was the greatest reason in the world to sentence those persons . and when it comes to be examined , it will prove so . and unless a strict hand be in that kind held upon the natives , the priests shall carry them against all things that can be . for either they do not , or will not , understand their evidence : so that it begets one of the most crying sins in ireland . and if some examples have been made , they are upon strict grounds and reasons of state. for if jurors going directly and manifestly contrary to their evidence , be not punished , that high and ancient trial by jury , will fall . and is it not ordinary in england to have juries sentenced for not finding according to the evidence ? but if any one hath not been just , upon instancing of the particulars , i will answer for his vote as well as i can : for it must stand or fall according to the merit of the cause . but one thing which i observe the gentleman to say , is very considerable ; for he tells what was spent there this last year . this i have little to answer for : for when i came out of ireland , there was l. in the exchequer ; and how it hath been issued , i know not , but it hath not been done by my warrant or direction ; yet i doubt not but it will appear , when examined , that it hath been faithfully and justly disposed . but i am not to answer for it , only i can say , that when i came out of that kingdom , the kingdom was so far from being l. in debt , ( as some such thing was spoken ) that there was l. in the kings coffers . and for the l. received by me in england , mr. vice-treasurer in ireland , is accomptable for it , though mr. vice-treasurer never touched the money , and my self as little . and mr. vice-treasurer discharges himself of it by warrants issued from me , and charged it upon other accomptants ; who when they come to account , i doubt not but a good account will be given . though ( under favour of the gentleman ) of the l. l. is yet unpaid , only there is an assignment . but it lies on him and his credit for discharge of the kings service : and it must lye on him , or on some other person , if himself have nothing left him . and whereas it is said , the money i had as borrowed , was taken out when the kings army was in want , i desire your lordships to observe , it was two years ago when i had this money ; and then there was l. in surplusage . and though the king gave me liberty , of his goodness , to use it three years , it was not wanting to the army when it stood in need of it . the next thing urged , was my cozenage in the custom-house ; and that i had there cozened the king notably , or l. a year deep . to answer this , i reserve my self till i come to the particular article ; but desire leave with all modesty to say , that it shall appear i have not cozened , nor deceitfully abused his majesty for a farthing token , neither in that , nor in anything else . and that there is no other allowance , nor defalcation by the grant wherein i am interessed for l. a year , and l. fine , then was allowed to the former farmers , that had it at the rent of l. a year . and that i have made the king a much more profitable bargain than he had , or could have without it . the next was for the revenues of the church , that they were got without rules of justice ; and were an offering of rapine . and that i had an eye to my own preferment , in the person of my lord of canterbury : to that i have already answered . and thus having run over all the preamble , i humbly begg leave to make some observations upon the testimonies produced , ( viz. ) that the examinations of sir iohn clotworthy , and my lord ranulagh , i conceive , do not concern me . mr. barnewells was for things spoken when i was out of the kingdom ; and were concerning sir george ratcliffe , and not me . for the remonstrances shewed , wherein they disclaim the preamble to the act for four subsidies , i beseech your lordships to consider , how unlikely it is that i should do any thing in that kinde fraudulently or surreptitiously : for by the custom of that kingdom , the laws must be transmitted hither under the hand of the deputy and council , and so pass the seal , and be returned to ireland ; when that law was transmitted , i was here in england , as i take it : and absolutely and directly , i protest i never knew any thing in the world of that preamble , never saw it , nor heard of it , i think , till i saw it in the copy of the remonstrance ; i never heard it was excepted against , it having pass'd the vote , and three times reading , in both houses : and i would have consented to have it struck out , as in truth i will now , being far from any thing of vanity , and not thinking my self better or worse by being put in or out : and if it were charged upon me as a crime , or were material for me to prove it , i think i could by witness in town prove , that it was the general vote of the commons house , and passed with as much applause and chearfulness , as any thing . and , that if my lord dillon , and sir adam loftus , and some other of the irish commissioners , were examined upon oath , i believe they would swear they never heard any exceptions against it , till the time i was impeached with high treason . for the particular concerning sir pierce crosby , it concerned not me ; but the reason of his being put from the board was this : all laws must first be transmitted from the deputy and council ; the bill against which he voted was transmitted , sir pierce crosby was there , and set his hand to the transmission ; and because he did not except against it then , being a member of the board , but did except against it afterwards , it was thought fit he should be sequestred ( as i remember ) till his majesties pleasure should be known ; but committed he was not : and it was done by the vote of the whole board , but no way to infringe the liberty of the house ; and so in obedience to your lordships , as near as i could , with a great deal of weakness and infirmity , i have said as much as i can for the present recollect , towards the making good the truth of my preamble . and i conclude with this humble suit , there being some exception took at some words that fell from me , many mens tongues and mouthes may offend , where their hearts do not : and that in truth i may say , my heart did not offend against that reverence and duty i shall always pay , on all occasions , to the honourable house of commons , and every member of it ; but to others , that are neither members of this house , nor of the house in ireland , i meant what i said : and i do beseech the gentlemen of the house of commons to accept my acknowledgment of this truth : and that my words may not be any ways raised against me as a cause of their thinking worse of me ; or that i should be peccant or offending , in having other thoughts of the members and proceedings of the house , than with all submission , and all belief of the equity of it . to which defence , one of the managers appointed for this days service , briefly replyed , in substance as followeth . what i have said in answer of the preamble , was not by way of charge , but only for disproof of that whereby my lord of strafford would take away , or nullifie the charge . so that if the charge remains in force , the services performed by him , are not effectual to mitigate it . that what we have proposed still stands unavoided , as we conceive , notwithstanding any thing my lord of strafford hath said . that as concerning sir pierce crosby his agreeing to the transmission , if that be true : that there is a preparative part of the law , and there sir pierce crosby might speak as a councellor ; but there is a legislative part of the law , and that is done in parliament ; and these being distinct , if sir pierce crosby did do any thing at council-table , it deprived him not of his liberty to speak in parliament . but we are informed , he gave his denial to consent to the transmission . and if my lord of strafford were not guilty in his own person of breach of priviledge ; yet if under his government , priviledge of parliament be broken , it is no matter of merit to say , he procured parliaments . it is no answer to say , things are not proved , when any thing we urged , is contained under an article ; for then he refers the proof when he comes to the article ; as many things concerning the lands of the clergy , will be made good in the proofs of the proper article . that he hath preferred many divines ; that is no part of his merit , nor takes away his fault , though it be true . that for the value of his living , we never heard of it till on this occasion ; but be it small or great , it is nothing to justifie my lord of strafford , being offered to this purpose ; that though his lordship were careful of the lands of the ministers , he was not careful of the ministers themselves , in suffering a groom to execute that high function ; ministers being not to be chosen according to the quality of the living , but according to the quality of the function . that for the matter of monopolies , if his lordship do stop any , he may stop them for sinister reasons and respects ; and however , there is no compensation , doing his duty in one thing , not satisfying for neglect in another . and then concluded , that what we have not now replied unto , shall be made good in the charge ; and ought not in their lordships opinion , make my lord of strafford more plausible ; for the charge shall be made good against him in the truth of the fact , and the aggravation of it . hereupon the court was adjourned , and the committee directed to proceed to the proofs conducing to the particular charge , the next morning . the third day . wednesday , march . . gentlemen , you who are of the committee to manage the evidence against the earl of strafford , i am to acquaint you , their lordships have considered of that point of sir pierce crosby , his being examined as a witness , and my lord of straffords exceptions ; and have resolved that he shall be examined ; and that the validity of his testimony shall be left unto their lordships judgments . your lordships have with great patience attended the charge that hath been read , and the answer , and the exceptions taken to the preamble , which my lord of strafford to ingratiate himself , did make to the main of his defence . my lords , i shall repeat little of that that hath been said , only pardon me if i say this to your lordships , that wherein my lord of strafford answered to very many particulars , yet to that one main he answered not , which was principally objected against him ; which i therefore speak to put him in mind of it , that if he can , he may answer : and that is , your lordships were pleased to hear the complaint and protestation of the whole kingdom of ireland read before you . the principal of their aim seems to be , to take off the extolling of my lord of strafford , that himself , or his agents , had put upon him in a bill of subsidies ; wherein indeed the praise and honour due to his majesty , was much attributed to my lord of strafford , which grieved the parliament , who would take it off , and my lord of strafford is now willing to lay it down ; and he doth well to do so when he can keep it no longer , when those from whom he took it by fraud or force , would wrest it again from him . i desire your lordships to remember , and i am sure you will , that the main of our complaint is , his alteration of the fundamental laws against will ; his introducing of new laws at his will and pleasure : this is not only the cry , but the testimony of a whole kingdom before your lordships ; of all the lords and commons of ireland . i shall not touch that which concerns breach of priviledge of parliament , he would fain put that off on sir george ratcliffe , his bosom friend , and put it off himself . my lord of strafford sequestred sir pierce crosby from the council , his vote went with it , others joined with him ; but i am sure he moved it , he concurred with it . but now , my lords , i humbly address my self to that we are ready to maintain , the body of the charge : and because some time hath been spent between the reading of the charge , and the main of the defence , i desire leave to open what is the nature , what the height and quality of the offence , of which this great lord stands accused before you ? my lords , it is a charge of the highest nature that can be against a man ; a charge of high treason . it is a treason , not ending and expiring in one single act of a discontented heart , but a habit , a trade , a mystery of treason exercised by this great lord , ever since the kings favour bestowed on him . my lords , it hath two evils to deprive us of that which is good ; that is , to subvert and take away the fundamental , the ancient laws , whereby we are secure of whatsoever we do enjoy ; it hath ( my lords ) a positive evil in it , to introduce instead of that an arbitrary government , bounded by no laws , but by the evil councels of such ministers as he hath been . my lords , it is the law that gives that soveraign tye , which w● all obedience and chearfulness , the subject renders to the soveraign . it is the law ( my lords ) that gives honours to the lords and nobles ; interest , property , and liberty to the subject . my lords , the law , ( as it is the foundation and ground of all these ) hath its distribution in a course of justice . justice is derived ( as by so many channels ) by the several courts of justice ; whereby the kings justice ( for it is his ) is brought and conveyed to the subject . my lords , of all this hath my lord of strafford endeavoured , not only to put the subject out of present possession , but to make him uncapable of the future benefit of it . other treasons , yea , a treason against the person of a prince ( which is the most transcendent and high treason that can be ) fall short of this treason ; for a good prince may be gathered to his fathers , yet another may succeed him , that supports the glory and justice of his throne . we have had experience of it : when blessed king iames was taken from us to heaven , sol occubuit & nox nulla secuta est . but if any one such a design as this should take effect , that the law and justice should be taken from the throne , and will placed there , we are without hope of ever seeing remedy . power in so great a measure taken , is not easily laid down , unless it be by the exceeding great goodness of so merciful and just a prince as we have . my lords , the particulars of this treason are conveyed to your lordships in several articles . i shall shortly and briefly touch but the heads of those on which i shall insist , and give some distribution of them . and i think the best way will be this ; to consider first what he did , and what he said , before he went into ireland ; then what he did and said there ; and what he hath done since . and in all of them , you will find this his main design , which i have opened , that law might no where stand against his will ; and to settle it , that he might continue so . my lord hath declared this in incroaching jurisdiction where it was not , in exercising an arbitrary power under that jurisdiction ; in taking on him a power to make laws ; in domineering and tyrannizing over the lives , the liberties , the goods , the estates , and whatsoever is the subjects . and ( my lords ) this hath he done , not only on those of the meaner sort that could not resist him , but on the peers , on the greatest and most ancient nobility of ireland : and what might your lordships expect , but the same measure at his hands , had his will had its passage here , which it had in ireland . i shall now come to the particular articles . . and first , whereas it pleased his majesty to place him with power and honour in his hand in the north as president , he had not been long there ; but that commission which bounded and pleased his predecessors , he must needs surmount and overgo . there was a commission in iac. which the then lord deputy had , in which was that legal phrase secundum antiquum cursum , his own commission car. pursued that , without any alteration ; but being in but four years , this would not please his boundless ambition , he must needs have the power that the lords in the star-chamber have , put in in express terms , a power to proceed according to the course of the chancery , that his conscience might limit other mens estat● ; that his injunctions might stay other proceedings at law : and which is highest of all , if any thing be done in that court , within these instructions , than no prohibition should be awarded . he would make himself safe from any supervising of other courts . if he committed any man to prison , though a habeas corpus were granted ( then which , the subject hath no other remedy to vindicate his liberty ) the officer ( for the encouragement of those which be under his power ) must not obey it . and if any fine be put upon the officer , then comes a command in this commission , that the fine shall be discharged ; so he not only takes a power to himself , but also takes the scepter of justice out of the kings hands ; for by this means there is an impossibility the subject should have the justice that my lord knows is due to him ; and he knows it right well : for when he was a member of the house of parliament , it was his own motion , who now stands at the barr , that all the officers and ministers of state , should serve the king according to that law , and he is the first officer and minister of state , that breaks it ; and in the most transcendent degree that ever it was broken . my lords , he doth in this , as much as in him lies , say to the laws , do your worst ; you can but fine , and that you can do shall come to nothing ; the fine shall not be paid , the officer shall not obey you . if this had been a single act , we should never have accused him of this treason , though it comes very high , and very transcendent . but the oppressions and injustice , the councels and speeches that we present to your lordships , we present them not singly , but as together , designing and noting , what a treasonable purpose and disposition is in him . . my lords , the next thing he doth when he is in the north among the justices of the peace , and the people attending for justice , you shall see what encouragement he gives them to look for it ; and how foul a thing he dares to fling on the sacred majesty that did advance him . he tells the justices that were to do justice , and the people that were to receive justice , that some of the justices were all for law , but they should find , the kings little finger is heavier than the loyns of the law. your lordships may consider what a transcendent speech this was , out of whose mouth it came , what sad accidents happened upon it ; nothing could move this lord to utter it : but his will and his violence must out , though he burst a kingdom in pieces for it . . the next thing is this , when he goes into ireland you will find his temper and spirit not a whit allayed ; but now being further from his majesties person , he is higher in his power and in his will. it is true , that kingdom was annexed to this many years ago ; but they that now possess the greatest part of it , are subjects of this kingdom , descended from them that went from hence thither . yet he tells them in a solemn speech , not suddenly but solemnly , that ireland is a conquered nation , and the king might do with them what he would ; and that their charters were nothing worth , and bind the king no longer than he pleases . surely ( my lords ) we might see what he would do if he had power . but god be blessed , we find not that disposition any where resented by his majesty ; and we hope that such councels shall never have access to so good and gracious an ear. . the next thing , he stays not in words , but will be as good as his word if he can ; and he begins high . for that we present next , is a peer of the kingdom thrust out of his possession by my lord of straffords order ; and when he sues at law for recovery of his right , my lord threatens him . truly threatnings are not good , in such a case , where a man sues for justice , and from him that ought to administer justice , and further him in it ; yet he threatens him imprisonment , to which peers are not ordinarily liable . first my lord tells him , he will not have law nor lawyers question his orders ; he might debar the lawyers in some cases , but why a man should have a spleen at the law , that his orders should not be examined by , that i know not . and he goes higher ; for when there was an occasion to speak of an act of state , he tells him , that he will make him and all ireland know , that as long as he had the government there , any act of state made , or to be made , should be as binding as an act of parliament . my lords , he cannot go higher in speeches than this , that an act of state of his own making , and his own power , should be as binding as an act of parliament . nay , he tells them in parliament , that they were a conquered nation , and must expect laws as from a conquerour . . next we shall shew divers instances wherein he exercises power over the lives , lands , and all that is the subjects ; deduced into several articles , viz. the th , the th , the th , and the th . in particular , one i shall be bold to open , that is the case of my lord mountnorris , another peer of that kingdom , and a great officer there . some words fell from that lord , speaking of one that had trodden on my lord of straffords toe , that he hoped the party did it not in revenge ; for he had a brother that would not have sought such a revenge . for these words , spoke at a private table , half a year , yea seven months before , my lord of strafford calls a councel of war , and judges his lordship to death . my lords , it is no wonder that he would make the kings little finger so heavy , that could make his own toe heavy enough to tread the life of a peer under his feet . and he did not only give sentence in that case , but caused execution to be done in another case , upon one d. who was condemned by martial law , and hanged at dublin , where there was no war at all . other particulars will follow when i fall upon proof . . then he comes to make laws ; and that is in the th article . by the laws of england and ireland too , the ecclesiastical power is distinct from the other , it not extending to the imprisonment of the person , but is to attend the kings courts , and to receive directions from thence ; yet he makes a warrant to the bishop of downe , ( and he made it to others too ) that if any of the poorer sort did not appear upon the bishops citation , or not obey when they did appear , they should be attached and imprisoned ; here he makes a law of himself , and subjects the liberties of the subjects to his own pleasure ; but this was for the poorer sort of people , though justice sees no difference in matters of estate , betwixt poor or rich : but when he hath brought it on the poor , he will afterwards bring it on the rich. . the next is a power of laying impositions on the subjects : first he is a farmer of the customs , he puts excessive rates upon the commodities ; that which is worth but s. as the hydes , he will have valued at s. and the wool , which is worth s. he will have it valued at s. d. and by this he takes away , in effect , whatsoever the commodity is worth ; for the customs come very near the value . another particular in this i shall be bold to open , and i hope his lordship will provide to give an answer , he hath advanced by this the kings customs , and a rent of l. is increased to the crown : but it will appear to your lordships , that the crown hath lost , and he only hath gained . and whereas my lord of strafford says there was no other defalcations in his patent , than in the former , that will fall out to be otherwise ; for this is the state of the bargain , there was a former rent of l. which the duke of buckingham paid out of this farm. on the earl of straffords patent that rent is reserved , and as much as came to l. more , but in lieu of l. advanced to the king , my lord of strafford hath in his grant the surplusage of wines ( which were not in the dukes patent ) worth l. a year , besides a rent paid for the term of the wine of l. and whereas there was no defalcation of the customs of london , derry and colerane in the dukes lease , which amounted to l. a year ; my lord of strafford must have a defalcation for them : and then the seizures , which were l. a year ; and for knockvergus and straniford l. a year , so here is above l. a year less to the crown , in lieu of the advance of l. a year , besides the increased customs , amounting to l. a year : and yet he again hath far exceeded this proportion . we say further , he doth not only impose on the subjects , but takes away that which is the subjects utterly and entirely , as in the case of the flax. it is true , the employment of it belongs to women ; but it is the greatest commodity ( one of them ) of that kingdom , and of greatest profit , the revenue of the custom of it being l. a year ; and this he hath gotten into his own hands and possession . this he got from the natives , and took it to himself . he doth for that purpose , issue a proclamation , that they shall use it in such a way wherein the natives were unskill'd , and if it were not so done , it should be seized ; and it was seized accordingly , yea their houses broke open , and their goods taken away , and brought to my lord of straffords house , where they were employed in his works . the like we shall instance in tobacco . . next we shall shew to your lordships how he hath levied war upon the kings subjects . we opened in the beginning , what an arbitrary jurisdiction he set up ; here we shall shew how he used it by a meer course of enmity and hostility . for ( my lords ) this was the course ; if a decree or order were made by him , and not obeyed , he issues a warrant to the sergeant at arms , to go to the next garrison , and take soldiers , with an officer , and carry them to the house of the party in question ; it is no matter where it was , but to the house of them that were pretended to be disobedient , they were to go : if the decree had been to raise so much money , or to put parties in possession . in plain terms , the soldiers were to lye like free-booters , and enemies on the king's people , to eat them up . they have killed their sheep , their oxen , and they have lain not on the parties only , but on their tenants , till the party comes in and renders himself . they have burnt their houses , taken their wives , and friends , and carried them away , till obedience was rendered , and this is a levying of war upon the king ; for the king and the people are both so united in affection and right of law , that there cannot be violence offered to the king , but it redounds to the people ; nor can any oppress the people in this sort , but it redounds to his majesty . besides , it is contrary to a law of that kingdom ; whereby it is enacted , that if any person shall assess horse or foot , on any of the kings people , without their consent , it is high treason . the next thing we shall go to , is the favour he shewed to the papists , in their compositions and exemptions from all penalties of law ; for they were expresly not to be proceeded against , nor to be convicted ; and so that which hath influence into religion and reformation , is quite taken away , and nothing but matter of profit is left . the next article is that that concerns the kingdom of scotland . first he begins with them in ireland ; contrives an oath , which is set forth in the articles , that they shall obey the kings royal commands without exception . this he enforceth , by fining and imprisoning them that disobeyed him : and so in all the other particulars when his proclamations were broken , his course was by fine and imprisonment to enforce an obedience . my lords , he doth not only press them in their estates , but strives to infuse into his majesty an ill opinion of them ; he provokes and incites him by all his arguments , to lay down his mercy and goodness , and justice , and to fall into an offensive war against that kingdom . he gives out , that the nation of them ( not this or that man ) are rebels and traytors : and if it please the king to bring him back to the sword ( indeed he is fit for that , it is a violent weapon ) he will root out the scottish nation , branch and root ; some few excepted of those that had taken the oath . when he comes into england , he find that his majesty , with great wisdom , had pacified those storms and troubles that threatned us there : yet he doth incense the king still to follow this to an offensive war , and prevails ; he plots to call a parliament , but with an intention ( if it furnished not his design ) it should be broken , and he would set up other ways of force to raise moneys of the kingdom ; and this fell out unhappily : for thus far his project took , the parliament was broken ; and broken at the very time when the subject was in debate and consideration , how to have yielded supply to his majesty . but that he might break it , he falsly informs the king , that the parliament had denied to supply him ; there is his counsel , that the parliament had forsaken the king ; and now the king having tryed his people , might use all other ways for the procuring and raising of moneys ; and the same day wherein that parliament was unhappily dissolved , he gives his further counsel to his majesty , ( which because no man can put such a spirit of malice into the words besides himself , i shall take the boldness to read ) that having tryed the affections of his people , he was loose and absolved from all rules of government ; and he was to do every thing that power would admit . and that his majesty had tryed all ways , and was refused , and should be acquitted both of god and man. and that his majesty had an army in ireland , which he might employ to reduce this kingdom . it is added in the printed book ( to reduce them to obedience ) i know not who printed it , but the charge is only ( to reduce this kingdom . ) and ( my lords ) you may please to consider , what a sad time this man took to reflect upon these bad councels , when our hearts were swoln with sorrow for that unhappy breach of the last parliament . and what doth he advise the king ? what positions offers he ? that he was absolved from all rules of government . if there be no rule of government , ( my lords ) where is the rule of obedience ? for how shall the people know to obey , when there is no rule to direct them what to obey ? he tells the king he was refused , which was untrue ; for he was not refused to the last breath we had in parliament : but we spake in that point , how to supply the king , and to prefer it at that time , before the complaints of our just grievances . but what doth he fall into ? that which in another article we charge him with , a plot and conspiracy betwixt him and sir george ratcliffe to bring in the irish army for our confusion , to root out our laws and government ; a pernicious counsel . he says not you shall do it ; but he that perswades it , doth as much as if in express terms he had councelled the acting of it . doth he mean that we should be to his irish pattern ; ( for speaking of the irish army , consisting of papists and his adherents , he said , that he would make it a pattern for all the kingdoms ; ) did he mean to reduce us to the pattern that he had placed in ireland ? surely he meant to reduce us to a chaos and confusion . he would have us without all rules of government ; and these be the means , wicked and cruel councels , and the cruelty of an army inspired with his spirit , and consisting of papists , enemies of our religion : and what mercy could we of this religion expect from popish enemies with swords in their hands ? that cannot but strike all english hearts with horrour and dread , that an irish army should be brought into england to reduce the subjects of england . i hope we never were so far gone in any thing , as that we should need an army to reduce us . i cannot but say here is the counsel of haman , when he would in one day cut off all the iewish nation , and have the king intend a favour to him . the king propounds a question , what shall be done to the man whom the king will honour ? haman thought in his heart , whom will the king honour but my self ? and so my lord of strafford having raised this army , it was set up by him ; and if such a counsel as this was entertained , into whose hands should it be put ? ( here were hamans thoughts ) who should have the power of it , but he that hath inspired it , and since maintained it . truly ( my lords ) it was a desperate counsel ; and methinks the counsel of achitophel might have been compared to it : for when he had stirred up the rebellion of absalom against his father , he perswades absalom to that which might breed an irreconcilable hatred between them . yet a father and a son might be reconciled . but he that adheres to the son in this case , might not so easily forgive . therefore this lord falls upon a counsel which he thought would never be forgiven . a counsel of irreconcilable difference , to subdue us by force and power ; and takes away all possibility of addressing our complaints to the king , as he had done from those of ireland ; when he not only forestalls their complaints , but by a proclamation takes order , that none should come over too , without his licence ; which was in effect , that none should complain of his oppression without his good liking . some violent speeches he uses , suitable to these counsels , that no good would be done upon the aldermen , till they were hanged ; that the french king employed commissaries to look into mens estates ; which will be insisted upon in their proper place . next , he levied eight pence a day for maintenance of the trained soldiers , against the will of the country , which he said was done by the consent of the lords of the great councel ; which we know is untrue . and we shall prove it untrue in the other part , where he says , it was done freely , by consent of the gentlemen of the country : most of them that did consent , were his own friends , and papists . but the petition of the country , ( as to that part of it that concerns a parliament ) he rejected , because he would have no parliament . and he prefers another in the name of the country , and that he calls , the petition of the country . and now i shall apply my self to the proofs ; and shall take care to offer nothing , but what will fall out to be proved . and shall first apply my self to the first article , concerning the commission for the north parts ; where an arbitrary power was thereby granted , as is used in the star-chamber and chancery . in the opening of it , first we shall produce the commission of car. and that of differs but little from it . we shall shew that these clauses were procured by him to be inserted upon occasion of a gentlemans , sir thomas gore being fined in the court of star-chamber there , and his being arrested by a warrant from my lord wentworth here in london . we do not go about to prove that he solicited for this commission , but that he expressed his desire of it ; and upon that it was granted . we shall prove that it was executed in this high manner , that when prohibitions have been taken out , he hath punished the parties , some he hath threatned ; nay , money hath been given to those that were defendants in the prohibition . and we shall offer this too , the judge is dead before whom it was ; but upon occasion of a prohibition , he went to a judge , a reverend and just man , mr. justice hutton ; what was said privately between them , we cannot tell ; but we shall prove , that mr. justice hutton complained with tears in his eyes , how that lord used him about a prohibition : and so we shall leave this article with this . we shall not go about to prove decrees , for which he might have colour ; but for these clauses he could have no colour , they never being in any commission before . the first article . the charge . that the said earl of strafford the st day of march , in the eighth year of his majesties raign , was president of the kings council in the northern parts of england . that the said earl being president of the said council , on the st of march , a commission under the great seal of england , with certain schedules of instructions thereunto annexed , was directed to the said earl , or others the commissioners therein named ; whereby , among other things , power and authority is limited to the said earl , and others the commissioners therein named , to hear and determine all offences and misdemeanours , suits , debates , controversies and demands , causes , things and matters whatsoever , therein contained , and within certain precincts in the said northern parts therein specified , and in such manner as by the said schedule is limited and appointed . that amongst other things in the said instructions , it is directed , that the said president , and others therein appointed , shall hear and determine , according to the course of procéedings in the court of star-chamber , divers offences , deceits and fal●ties therein mentioned , whether the same be provided for by acts of parliament , or not , so that the fines imposed , be not less than by the act or acts of parliament provided against those offences , is appointed . that also , amongst other things in the said instructions , it is directed , that the said president , and others therein appointed , have power to examine , hear and determine , according to the course of procéedings in the court of chancery , all manner of complaints for any matter within the said precincts , as well concerning lands , tenements and hereditaments , either frée-hold customary , or copy-hold , as leases , and other things therein mentioned ; and to stay procéedings in the court of common law , by injunction , or otherwise , by all ways and means , as is used in the court of chancery . and although the former presidents of the said council had never put in practice such instructions , nor had they any such instructions , yet the said earl in the month of may , in the said eighth year , and divers years following , did put in practice , exercise and use , and caused to be used and put in practice , the said commission and instructions ; and did direct and exercise an exorbitant and unlawful power and iurisdiction over the persons and estates of his majesties subjects in these parts , and did dis-inherit divers of his majesties subjects in those parts of their inheritances , sequestred their possessions , and did fine , ransom , punish , and imprison them , and caused them to be fined , ransomed , punished and imprisoned , to their ruine and destruction ; and namely , sir coniers darcy , sir john bourcher , and divers others , against the laws , and in subversion of the same . and the said commission and instructions , were procured and issued by advice of the said earl. and he the said earl , to the intent that such illegal and unjust power might be exercised with the greater licence and will , did advise , counsel , and procure further directions , in and by the said instructions to be given , that no prohibition be granted at all , but in cases where the said council shall excéed the limits of the said instructions . and that if any writ of habeas corpus be granted , the party be not discharged till the party perform the decrée and order of the said council . and the said earl in the th year of his majesties reign , did procure a new commission to himself , and others therein appointed , with the said instructions , and other unlawful additions . that the said commission and instructions , were procured by the solicitation and advice of the said earl of strafford . proofs touching the commission for government in the north , enlarged . to the point of star-chamber power . the commission granted mar. car. was read , article , whereby my lord as president , or in his absence the vice-president , assisted , ( prout in the commission ) are authorized to hear , end and determine , according to the course of proceedings in the star-chamber , all and all manner of forgeries , extortions , &c. and to fine , &c. so as the fines imposed be not less than by the acts of parliament is provided , &c. whence observe , that he would have power in fining to go beyond , but not less than the fines in the act of parliament . to the point of chancery iurisdiction . article . was read , whereby power is given by injunction , to stay proceedings in any court of common law. article . was read , whereby power is given to send the sergeant at armes , and attach in any part of the realm of england ; and to bring before the lord president , &c. any person departing the jurisdiction of that court , after commission of rebellion sued forth . article . whereby is granted , that no prohibition be granted in the court of westminster , to stay proceedings in that court. but in cases where the court of the president shall exceed the kings instructions ; and if any habeas corpus shall be sued forth for not performing the order of that court , the party committed , not to be discharged , so long as such orders shall stand in force ; and if any fine be thereupon estreated , the treasurer and barons of the exchequer to discharge it . whence observe , that the not granting of prohibitions , or habeas corpus's , and the discharging of the fines estreated , are new . to the sending of proces actually before these clauses granted ; and to the earl of straffords procuring the clause to be supplyed , when he found the defect . iohn gore sworn ; and being interrogated how his father was arrested , and how long before this commission ? answered , that sir thomas gore his father , was arrested in london , by a sergeant at armes ; that his father conceiving it to be out of the instructions at yorke , did appeal to the council-table : that mr. mason argued for his father , and made it appear , that the president and council had no instructions to take a man without the precincts of the court. that my lord of strafford fell on his knees , and besought the king , that if his instructions might not be so good as to bring in a delinquent that had affronted the court , if by stepping over the water he should go beyond the precincts of it , he might leave that service , and lay his bones in his own cottage . that his father was arrested in november , . as he takes it , and was kept weeks before he was discharged . evers gower sworn , and interrogated about the time of his fathers arrest : answered , that it was in november , . and his father kept in prison or weeks ; but referred to his brothers deposition for a more particular answer . to the matter of prohibitions ; iohn musgrave sworn ; was examined , whether he knew of any prohibition sued forth in vaux his cause : and whether a warrant were granted to attach : what threats my lord of strafford used to the party that sued it out , being after octavo caroli . after some exceptions taken to it by the earl of strafford , as not being within the charge , the witness answered , that he knew of an english suit between musgrave and vaux : that upon notice given by musgrave , a prohibition was procured ; direction was given , that an affidavit should be made of serving the prohibition . that affidavit being made , a warrant was directed to the pursevant , or his deputy , to arrest vaux . on which , he was arrested , and rescued . that after affidavit made of the rescue , a further warrant was sued forth for bringing in of the rescuers from london ; which warrant was now produced . that the rescuers being thereupon brought to yorke ; and having lain several days in prison , an information was exhibited by sir george ratcliffe , then the kings attorney at yorke , by relation of francis musgrave : to which they did answer . and after , upon full hearing , that before the censure , he the deponent , in michaelmas term , before . did come to london on behalf of francis musgrave , to move the court of common-pleas , to have the prohibition dissolved : and likewise vaux did procure a rule for a prohibition in the information cause ; which the witness offered to shew under the court hand , that it was moved by sir robert heath , that the difference might be referred to mr. justice hutton , and sir robert heath . that he the deponent undertook for musgrave , and vaux did submit : that afterwards , by sir george ratcliffes direction , thinking it not fit to refer the cause , it concerning the jurisdiction of the court of york . my lord president being acquainted with it , the reference went not on that term , but stayed till the presidents pleasure was known ; with which mr. justice hutton was made acquainted . that in december , upon his this deponents return to york ; and upon hearing the information cause , december . sir george ratcliffe did offer to the court , ( the lord president being there ) whether he might go on in the information cause ; ( for that there was a reference between musgrave and vaux , to justice hutton and sir robert heath ) or whether the reference might go on or no ? that the lord president thereupon answered , that a rule for a prohibition , was no prohibition ; but if there were one , he would not obey it : and whosoever brought a prohibition there , he would lay him by the heels . and as he the deponent remembred , he directed his speech to the register of the court ; and told him , there was a letter from the king to that purpose : but that , he said , he could not very well remember . and as touching the reference , my lord said , it was a cause that concerned the jurisdiction of the court of york ; and no private man should end it : he would try the jurisdiction of the court upon it ; and the next term would go to london , and acquaint the judges with it ; and if they remanded the cause back again , so ; if not , he would appeal to the king in it . that after christmas , in candlemas term , . he the deponent went to london with my lord , and moved again for dissolving the prohibition , and for liberty to proceed . that again it was agreed between the judges of that court , and my lord , to have a treaty : and several treaties they had , but could not agree . the effect of the treaty was , that if a trial could be directed at law upon a fained action , i should go to law , reserving the equity to the court ; if not , that the judges would remand the cause back again . but after they had several days met , and no trial could be directed , nor any action devised at law to try it , my lord thereupon said , he would give no further meeting , but would appeal to the king ; and the party should petition : on which , a petition was drawn , which the deponent offered . and the judge speaking something of vaux , my lord said , he should not be in england , but he would have his body ; or words to that purpose . f. thorpe sworn ; being interrogated touching some words he heard mr. justice hutton speak touching these prohibitions , and some other things in that point , he answered , he would give the best account he could of what passed ; being divers years since : that he was with justice hutton in his study , and they had conference together ( as they had many times ) touching that height that my lord of strafford was pleased to carry the business of york-shire with : and that amongst other things , my lord was pleased to say , my lord had been with him , and shewed himself very angry with him , because he had granted a prohibition . and this is all he could remember ; he took it to be seven years ago , and in the cause that concerned vaux , as he took it ; and this was at london : and added , that the judge spake with a great deal of passion , to think things should be carried in that manner as they were , that the judges should not have liberty to grant prohibitions : for the judge said , that he had thus debated the business with my lord , why should you be angry for granting of prohibitions ? they in the kings-bench can grant writs of error to examine our proceedings ; and we think it no offence , and hold our selves as able to judge , as they : and it is the justice of the law that requires it to be so ; and therefore you must submit to us , as we must submit to them . f. thorpe being asked what he knew of my lord of straffords distast against them that sued out , or solicited , or councelled prohibitions , or habeas corpus's ? he first desired to be excused from saying any thing that concerned himself ; but being commanded to speak , he answered , that he would speak nothing but the truth , if he must do it , though he perish for it : and he professed , that he had not spoken in any place , to any person , what he was now to say . that in the beginning of my lord of strafford's time , it fell to him , in his ordinary course of practice , to move for a prohibition ; and on his motion some were obtained . that he was informed by divers men , that my lord of strafford was much offended with him ; and some spoke it to him by way of threat , some others by way of advice and friendship . that he should give over moving for prohibitions , which he did not understand to be a fault , since the justice of the kingdom was , that they should be granted ; and it continued a matter of a year after . that then he took an occasion to go to my lords house to gantropp ; and his errand was , partly to present his humble duty and service to his lordship ; and in the second place , if he could have opportunity , and if his lordship would please to speak with him , to give his lordship satisfaction in any thing he had done in that particular ; because it was conceived , he opposed the jurisdiction of that court. that after he had the favour to speak with his lordship , ( which was long first ) he was pleased to say no otherwise than thus , i have nothing to say to you , you are one that oppose me : but at the present i have eased you of the office of justice of the peace ; so you need not trouble your self with that . that he did humbly thank his honour for it ; for howsoever he meant it , he took it to be no dis-favour , but a courtesie , he having been in three or four years , but not executing any authority , it standing not with his occasions . and his lordship added , hereafter you and i shall speak further of the businesse ; that afterwards his lordship met him in london , in the inner star-chamber , he then attending on a motion day before the lord keeper , amongst others of his rank . that my lord president was pleased to come behind his back , and lay his hand on his shoulder , and said , i command you not to depart the town . that the words were something strange to him ; and not understanding well what his lordship meant by it , he instantly went to his lordship , and desired that he might know his mind , he not very well hearing him . that his lordship repeated the words again , i command you not to depart the town . that for a matter of a week , or such a thing , he did attend under this command : and then applyed himself to his lordship , by all means and friends that he could . he petitioned three or four times ; he is uncertain which : he made means , by persons of quality , to his lordship , that his lordship would tell him the place where he was to attend , or the cause for what , or the person before whom ; but his lordship was not pleased to give him any satisfaction : only thus much he received , that he was one that did oppose his lordship , and he should attend . seeing there was no remedy , he made his address to a noble friend present , and acquainted him with the business ; who was pleased to take the matter so to heart , as to move it to his lordship . that then he conceived the fault he had committed , the not paying the knighthood money in york-shire . and his the deponents answer was , he had offered it , but was not chargeable by law ; for he had not l. a year three years before the coronation , as the writ did enjoyn . he speaks now of that which is not in the charge ; which ought not to be . we desire he may proceed , leaving it to your lordships to sever that which is material , from that which is not material . f. thorpe proceeded , and said , he could not say he punished him for the prohibition ; but he conceived , all did follow because he moved sometimes for prohibitions : and that he had opposed his authority and power in york-shire . i appeal to your lordships judgments , whether it be not out of the charge ; mr. thorpe could not search my heart to know the ground of the offence . the charge against my lord of strafford , is not only the executing of these instructions ; but also the exercising of an exorbitant and unlawful power and jurisdiction , over the persons and estates of his majesties subjects , to which , the matter offered by the witnesses , is material . the lord steward , speaking to the witness , said , apply your self as much as you can , to the point in question . f. thorpe proceeded , and said , that he conceived the question was asked him generally , what he could say concerning prohibitions , or them that had to do with them . that no man living hath less desire to speak of my lord of strafford , than he had ; and if he had not been asked this question on his oath , and before that presence , and on this command , he should not have said it : for what he said now , he never had spoke before ; and with what sorrow he came now to speak it , he knew ; and said , that he spake not this to any other purpose , but only , that these things which were done , were done on the occasion of the prohibitions . for the matter of knighting-money , though it were made the cause of staying him in london , yet , under favour , ( he said ) that was not , nor could be the cause ; for he had offered it below in the country , only thus , that he was not chargeable by law , but very willing to pay it , if my lord would have him pay it ; so he might comply with his lordship , or serve any occasion wherein his lordship was employed . and therefore that of knighting was the occasion taken , yet he conceived that was not the true occasion . and lastly , that after he had been kept or days under this command , his lordship was pleased ( on that which passed between that noble lord ( my friend ) and his lordship ) to give him leave to go home , and then he paid the money . we desire the witness may not conceal any thing , but speak it ; and being demanded accordingly . f. thorpe answered , there was another particular happened on him ; and though another occasion was taken , part came from the said root , but he desired to be pardoned in not speaking of it . being required to speak , and to set forth what time this was , and what that noble mans name was , who , upon my lord of straffords motion , procured him liberty . f. thorpe answered , that he conceived the time to be about the knighting-money business , and the lords name was , my lord goring . your lordships may observe this was long before the commission in car. and some two years after my lord of strafford came to the place . being interrogated further , whether he or his clients have forborn to move in that cause of prohibitions out of fear of my lord of strafford . he answered , for his own particular he hath forborn , and durst not adventure it , nor any that had to do with him in those parts , as he knew , durst move till of very late ; for he knew very well the price of my lord of strafford's displeasure . being asked if he knew any thing of the case of leyton , about a prohibition . he answered , he knew nothing of it . i humbly desire , with your lordships leave , to interpose a question . we desire that our witness might first be heard out , and we shall not interrupt my lrod of strafford in asking what questions he pleases in his just defence . let the witness proceed . to your lordships order , and in all things , i shall pay obedience , i desire nothing in the world but a clear understanding of the truth in this business , and so i am sure every man doth that hears me ; and without offence , and with all reverence , i humbly offer , that the witnesses may stand apart from the committee for the commons , the committe asking the witnesses many questions , which i conceive , by your lordships rule , should be asked by your lordships only ; for which i crave pardon , if i have offended in moving of it , i standing for my life , and which is dearer , my honour , and my children . their lordships rule hath been kept , and things shall be carried clearly on all hands . we desire the witness may proceed to speak concerning his own imprisonment ; and the lord steward interrogating him accordingly , he kept to the same point . f. thorpe proceeds , saying , that he could give no other ground for it , though another occasion was taken , yet he conceived the true ground , because he was too busie in medling with prohibitions . that the pursevant attending the council at york , came to his house , and carried him before the lord president and council , where he attended a day , and then had liberty to speak with my lord ; that his lordship was pleased to tell him , there was an accusation against him , but they that laid it were not come to town , therefore he must attend ; and that they were his betters , and therefore he had reason to attend : he desired to know what it was , but could not have that favour ; but some eight days after ( being in the mean time in the pursevants custody ) he was brought to the council-table again , and his lordship sitting at the upper end , commanded him to kneel , he coming as a delinquent ; which he did accordingly , bringing with him a spirit of submission , knowing very well his ruine depended on his opposition , and on his rising , his lordship was offended , he stayed no longer kneeling . afterwards a letter was read from some gentlemen in the country , wherein they had written , that i had spoken at the sessions a little more than became me to the court , in defence of a client , on a traverse to an indictment . and what they had written ( i confessed ) was very true ; for it was thus ; upon the traverse of an indictment , the question being , whether the bare indictment were evidence to the petit jury , i did say it was no evidence , and i desired to appeal to the judges . my lord president was pleased to say , he would teach me to know , there were other men for me to complain to , viz. the president and the council . i told his lordship , i was ready to complain to any where i might have right : and i appeal to the kings learned council , whether it was not law what i spoke . i was then put out , and direction sent , i must find sureties , and make publick submission at the sessions for saying these words : i did find sureties , and when i went to sir w. ellis to enter the recognizance , he told me , i am sorry , but i cannot help you , for my lord of strafford over-ruled us ; and you are to be bound to the good behaviour , and make submission at the sessions : and he said further , that what he was enjoyned , he did perform . and all this , i conceive , originally grew , for that i did oppose the jurisdiction of the court at york , and not for the causes pretended . and this binding to my good behaviour was eight or ten years ago . and being further asked , whether he knew of any other that had been oppressed with this exorbitant power , or no ? f. thorpe answered , he had heard of many , but he was not present at their commitment , nor saw their orders , and can say nothing of his knowledge ; only he knew sir thomas gore was under custody . george hawes was produced next , and interrogated , what he knew of sir conyers darcies fining . i confess i was there , and gave consent to his fining ; but it was not by vertue of the said commission , for it was before my time . the manager did now sum up the evidence , and my lord of strafford's answer was expected . i desire a little time to retire : and after some debating thereof betwixt his lordship and the committee , it was resolved his lordship should have some little space to rest , and peruse his notes at the bar , which the manager alledged to be unusual in any court of justice in a proceeding of this nature . my lords , there is a great deal of difference betwixt the case of a man that answers for a bloody , hainous , and known treason , by the statutes of the realm , before the lord steward and his peers , in an ordinary way of proceeding ; and him that answers a mixt charge , partly misdemeanors , and partly ( as apprehended ) treason . there is nothing in this that can be treason , and when misdemeanors will not make one felony , shall misdemeanors heighten it to a treason ? and in that point , in due time , i shall desire my council may express themselves , whether any thing in this charge ( admit it all to be true ) be treason , that if they be but misdemeanors , i should be admitted council , and examine witnesses by commission . i had no leave to summon a witness before friday last , and the greatest part of my proofs and charge comes out of ireland ; and to be debarred from these , under pretence of treason , i conceive to be , in this case , a little severe . but i shall proceed to my defence . and first , as for the instructions which i am charged withall , being . march , car. they were not procured by me , i knew nothing of them . the commission and instructions to the president and council of york , are of course renewed on the death of one of the council of the fee in ordinary , and the putting in of a counsellor at large , is only by letter . sir arthur ingram , who was secretary , going out , and sir iohn melton succeeding , these instructions of march car. were renew'd . that in the case of such renewing , the kings councell of the fee , do , by the secretary , offer the kings learned council such things as they conceive conducing to the clearing and bettering of the kings service in those parts : and it finally comes to the lord keeper or lord chancellor , and they agree it . i protest that i gave no direction in these , nor do i conceive any thing offered , proves me to be the man that procured them . as to the execution of it , from the date of that commission to this hour , i did never one act , nor stayed a minute as president of the council of york . the commission being granted march oct. car. and i went towards ireland in iuly following , which i can prove by my servants , if they might be sworn . and before i be convinced of a misdemeanor , i conceive they must be sworn : but that now i answer only to treason . if i were neither privy to the taking out of the commission , nor any way employed in the executing of it , i appeal unto your lordships , and the gentlemen of the house of commons , whether i can be charged as criminal , as to this commssion , or any thing that proceeds from it . as for the sentence against sir conyers darcy , it was just , and he complained not of it : of which i have a copy , and desire it may be read . that from the first institution of the court of president and council at york , that court had both a star-chamber and chancery power ; as will appear by all the instructions before that time . that if there be an errour in a judge , so that he give a sentence otherwise than a man of better understanding conceives reason for , there is no cause it should be heightned to a treason , to take from him his life and honour , and all he hath , meerly because he was not so wise a man as he might have been , nor so understanding as another : and if this be prest on judges , i think few judges will serve . and for my part , i had rather go to my cottage , as the witness saith , then serve on these terms . the charge lays it to be done in may , car. and divers years following , and the instructions came not in time till the st mar. car. which i conceive to be a mistaking of the year . that as to the sentence of sir iohn bourcher , which is charged upon me , but not insisted upon by the gentleman , i was no way acquainted with the beginning , proceeding , or ending of the cause , being all that while in ireland ; so your lordships may observe with what uncertainty men may speak , that do inform in such cases . that of the commission , the th of the king , with which i am likewise charged , as the procurer of it , i had no more knowledge , than of that which was most forreign ; being at that time in ireland , and the commission renewed of one of the council in fee. i shall now descend to proofs . that the commission car. was renewed upon sir iohn meltons coming to be secretary , instead of sir arthur ingram , the committee admitted it . to the testimonies given by the witnesses , i observe , that iohn gore , the first witness , speaks nothing to the renewing of the commission , but to his fathers commitment ; and that was in november , but what year , non liquet . but this is not within my charge , therefore i shall not answer to that ; though if it were in charge , i doubt not , but in that , and every thing else , i shall give an account of an honest and just man , not to say of a discreet , and a wise man. that for the testimony of iohn musgrave , it contains nothing within my charge : and i can say nothing to it , but by way of divination . and he is but a single witness ; and therefore i conceive , shall hardly be able to convince any man of high treason , hardly of a trespass . that what iohn musgrave speaks of , is grounded on a question of the jurisdiction of courts ; and one rule of our law is , boni judicis est amplicare iurisdictionem . and why the enlarging of a jurisdiction should be heightned to a treason , i appeal to your lordships nobleness , justice , and honour , to consider ; for i think there are none in place of judicature , but they will desire to enlarge their jurisdiction , as far as in reason and justice they may : and it is a chast ambition ( if rightly placed ) to have as much power as may be , that there may be power to do the more good in the place where a man lives . for f. thorpe's testimony , i observe , that i have nothing to say to him of exception ; but that he speaks nothing to the purpose , nor to any thing in the charge , i being charged with the execution of the commission and of the king ; and all he speaks of , is precedent in time : and what he says , is by hear-say from mr. justice hutton , and sir william ellis . i do not remember my lord gorings speaking to me about mr. thorpe , it being , , or years ago . i have put in my answer , and if that be not impeached by testimony of witnesses ( as it is not ) i conceive it ought to be allowed . i desire to produce witnesses , wherein i have liberty ; but not to examine on oath . and first , to the time of my going towards ireland . his lordships secretary being interrogated ; he answered , that his lordship went from london iuly , . towards ireland , the th year of the king. mr. railton , to the time of his lordships going towards ireland , said , that iuly , . my lord began his journey into ireland , being the ninth year of the king. the committee for the commons , admitted that he went over in iuly , . to the time of my lord of straffords coming from york ; mr. thomas little says , his lordship came from york in ianuary was eight years , and returned not to york till . to his lordships doing any act as president of york , since the said new commission of octavo caroli ; mr. thomas little says , that since the date of that commission , his lordship never sate as president of the north , in any cause whatsoever . his lordship offered to prove his being in ireland when sir iohn bourcher was censured by the vice-president and council ; but the commons not pressing his lordship in that matter , he said , if it be granted , i have done . to the earl of straffords being in ireland when the commission car. was renewed . mr. thomas little answered , being questioned , my lord was in ireland at that time ; he went over in . having come over in november before ; and was not in england again till . and so ( my lords ) i conclude my defence , that i am charged only with procuring and executing the commission . and this answer i humbly offer and submit . iohn gore speaks particularly of the occasion of enlarging the commission , upon the arresting of his father . that my lord of strafford fell on his knees , desiring from his majesty an enlarging of his power ; else that he might go home : so going out of england in iuly after , the commission answers to the procurement that was before . that which his lordship hath answered to f. thorpe , that the things by him complained of , were in the time before the commission , may be used as an argument , that he was privy to the instructions . we produce i. musgrave , only to shew my lords violence about prohibitions , before this commission was procured ; he growing so high , a little before , that he would lay them by the heels that brought the kings writ ; the council were awed , that they durst not demand justice : so that the procuring of it , suited most with his design . that his witnesses had little contradicted what the witnesses for the commons had said . that whereas it is said , the charge is not treason ; if the fact shall appear to their lordships , satisfaction will in good time be given . that though this particular is not treason , yet all the parts of it amount to the subversion of the laws of the kingdom ; that is prest as treason , and this as an evidence . that for the second commission , it follows as the other ; if he procured the one , he is guilty as if he procured both , it being the same power still . the second article . the charge . that shortly after the obtaining of the said commission , dated the st . of march , in the eighth year of his maiesties reign , ( to wit ) the last day of august then next following , he the said earl ( to bring his maiesties liege people into a dislike of his maiesty , and of his government , and to terrifie the iustices of the peace from executing of the laws : he the said earl being then president , as aforesaid , and a iustice of peace ) did publickly , at the assizes held for the county of york , in the city of york , in and upon the said last day of august , declare and publish before the people there attending for the administration of iustice according to law , and in the presence of the iustices sitting , that some of the iustices were all for law , and nothing would please them but law ; but they should find , that the kings little finger should be heavier than the loyns of the law. we are come now to the second article , touching words spoken of the king , that the kings little finger should be heavier than the loyns of the law. for that , we desire to produce witnesses , and they will shew how my lord of strafford is mistaken in his answer : or if he says true , as he slanders the king in one sense , so he slanders the law in another . witnesses produced . william long sworn , and interrogated , what words he heard my lord of strafford speak concerning the comparison between the kings little finger , and the loyns of the law , on what occasion , where , and at what time ? answered , when sir thomas leyton was sheriff of york-shire , . ( as he takes it ) my lord of strafford being there , he heard his lordship say these words , that some , nothing would content but law ; but they should know , the kings little finger should be heavier than the loyns of the law : and this was spoken in the place where the judges sate in york-castle , at the assizes that year . the occasion he knew not , but it was publickly spoken ; and as he thought , my lord did not then sit on the bench , but stood at the barr. sir thomas leyton was sworn ; and being thick of hearing , the manager was directed by my lord steward , to interrogate him to the effect aforesaid ; who answered , my lord said , some would not be satisfied but by law ; but they should have law enough ; for they should find the kings little finger , to be heavier than the loyns of the law. his lordship being on the bench then with the judges at that time , and abundance of the country being there then at lammas assizes , at the castle-bench ; and he thinks it was . or . but he knew not the occasion . marmaduke potter having been examined as a preparatory witness , and since being deceased , it was desired his deposition might be read . the lord steward declared , that the examinations of those preparatory witnesses , should be read , in case any should be dead . to prove marmaduke potter's death , thomas harrison was sworn : being interrogated what he knew concerning the death of marmaduke potter : answered , that since his coming out of york-shire , he heard a report from his neighbours , that m. p. is dead and buried , that he the deponent , lived a mile from the said marmaduke potter ; which is ninescore and ten miles from this place ; but he heard no particular of the day of his burial . the examination of marmaduke potter , gent. taken ianuary , . to the th and th inter. he saith , that about eight years since , when sir thomas leyton was sheriff of york-shire , he heard the earl of strafford make a speech publickly at the bench at summer-assizes ; and he said then , that the kings little finger should be heavier than the loyns of the law. i know not whether it were material for me to answer this , or no ; but as the charge is laid , it is impossible i should be guilty of the words : for it is laid to be the last of august , next following the st of march , in the eighth year of his majesties reign ; which falls out to be when i was in ireland . but i desire not to stand on such niceties , but that truth may appear . the words confessed in my answer , are quite contrary , being , that the little finger of the law , was heavier than the kings loyns . and that i set forth in my answer , and the occasion of them ; which these witnesses do not , or else will not , remember . the occasion was this : there came divers levies in the year when sir thomas leyton was sheriff , for divers great sums of money for issues in the knighting-business , on some that had compounded , and paid their money to me , the receiver of that money then , and by me answered in the exchequer ; yet these issues came down , through some errour above , and were levied with very great rigour by sir thomas leyton . when i came down , i spake with sir thomas leyton , and shewed him how the men were injured ; and did desire him to return the money to them again , and i would see him discharged in the exchequer , which he was contented to do . and then , to give satisfaction to the country , i told them , that that commission was a commission of grace and favour , and that their compounding with the king , was an ease to them , and much greater ease than by a proceeding at law would have fallen on them , the very first issues being three or four times more than they had compounded the whole for . and thereupon i applyed that speech , that the little finger of the law was heavier than the loyns of the king. for if i should then have fallen to threaten them , i had spoken contrary to the end i had proposed , which was to incline them : and further , that not one of the witnesses spoke any thing to the occasion of the speech . that it is long since , and was never yet complained of ; and that man must have a stronger memory than i , that will undertake to swear positively the very words spoken seven or eight years ago : and , under favour , he ought to have better ears than sir thomas leyton , who appears to have such an infirmity in hearing , that he must now be whoopt to at the barr , before he can hear ; and sure his sense of hearing is much decayed , else he could not have heard me speaking at that distance to the place where the sheriff sits in an open place , as far distant , as from the barr where i now stand , to my lord steward , or very near . dr. duncombe being asked , whether he came accidentally to york that day ? and what he heard the words repeated to be ? he answered , he came from durham , being sent for on other occasions ; that he was at york in his journey from durham , the first day of the assizes ; and being at dinner at dr. stanhopps , there came a gent. sir edward stanhopp , who called dr. stanhopp uncle , from the assizes . that the doctor asked what news , specially concerning my lord presidents speech , he told them , that he prest hard to hear , and could tell some passages of it . then they asked what they were , says he , my lord president was speaking of this , that the way of the prerogative was in some particulars , easier than the common law : and in his expression , he said these words , the little finger of the common law , is heavier than the loyns of the king. this the said sir edward stanhopp told him , in the presence of divers others , who he thinks , do remember the words were so related ; and that he had related them often since , and never took it otherwise , till he saw it in the charge ; and there it was clear otherwise . and upon further question , at my lord of straffords motion , he answered , that he never acquainted my lord of strafford that he could say any thing in this , till sunday night ; and then talking with sir william pennyman , he told sir william the story . my lord of strafford desired sir william pennyman might be heard ; and humbly acknowledged the favour that had been done him by the house of commons , in giving liberty unto it upon his suit . sir william pennyman being asked , whether he was present at the time when my lord of strafford spoke the words of comparison , between the kings little finger , and the loyns of the law ; what was spoke , and what was the occasion : he answered , that he was present at the assizes at york at that time , and heard my lord speak these words in another order and position , than is testified by these three witnesses . and in truth ( he said ) he could wish he spake now on his oath , for he knew he spake on much disadvantage ; the occcasion was this , a rumour was cast up and down in the country , that my lord of strafford had received great sums of money concerning knighthood , which he had detained in his own hands , and not paid into the exchequer ; hearing of this , his lordship thought himself much wronged in it , and took occasion to vindicate himself ; and there spoke of it , and told them , ( to the best of his remembrance ) there was some omission on the secretaries part , or some of the officers of the exchequer . hereupon my lord took occasion to discourse of the legality of knighthood-money ; and told them , gentlemen , you may see this is a commission of grace and favour : for whereas you may compound with the king for a matter of or l. you have in two or three terms , run into great sums . he added , that he did not remember the proportion ; but the inference was , so that you may see , that the little finger of the law , is heavier than the loyns of the king. one of the managers desired he might be asked , by what means this was brought into his memory , and how long since : he answered , he had the retention of it in his memory before ; but it was revived on occasion of these articles , when they were exhibited . it is enough , and he did his duty well , that being a member of the house of commons , he never informed the house of it . my lords , i desire my answer may be read ; wherein , the occasion , and the words , are directly set forth , quite contrary to those in the charge ; and i protest , that i will take my oath on it , that it was so . and my humble request is , that no witness i produce , may be prejudiced for any testimony he shall give here , being with the liberty and allowance of both houses . for if they should be discountenanced , nay , punished for it , i should think my self a very unhappy man indeed ; and rather than i should prejudice any man in that kind , i profess , i would put my self on gods mercy and goodness , and not make use of any member of either house , ( and my principal witnesses must be of both houses ) rather than acquit my self by their prejudice ; for i accompt it an unjust thing , to overthrow another to save my self . the testimony of a member of the house , hath great credit in the house , and they take not the least exception against sir william pennyman , for any thing he said before their lordships , but wish he may speak with clearness and truth ; but had he informed this particular himself to the house , he had done my lord of strafford more right , than by not informing , to let it come in charge ; and bring in his testimony contrary to his vote . when a witness hears a thing in question , though it be not required of him , certainly he should vindicate the reputation of his friend , in contradicting it in season , but it is not so done ; and certainly his silence to the house , was not well . my lords , this concerns me nearly , this gentleman , sir william pennyman , is my noble friend , and a worthy gentleman ; and i would give him my life on any occasion : but i know him to be a person so full of virtue and nobleness , that he would not speak an untruth for all the world ; perhaps he might not think fit to speak it in the house , men are left at their liberty . the charge came out in print very lately , and whether sir william pennyman might know any thing of it , i leave it to those that better understand it . but with this humble request to the noble and worthy gentlemen of the commons house , that they would please to regard it so , that no man may suffer by me , i protest i had rather suffer ten thousand times my self . the business concerns the house of commons , the committee knows not how they will apprehend it ; but it is only offered , that the judgment of the house of commons may not be prejudiced . the lord steward concluded this matter , that his lorship is put upon the trial of his peers , who will give him all fair respect . that his lordship shall be denied no just way for his clearing , that he could say nothing in the name of the lords to this particular that 's come out on the present , nor these gentlemen in the name of the commons , only he may be sure to find all that is fit : which my lord of strafford said he doubted not , and hoped their lordship would pardon him for moving it , it concerning him very much . as to the mistake in point of time , the commons laying it to be after the commission . march , reg. and prove it to be before the time , is not at all material . the offence is not that he spake it on that day , but that he spake the words . the exception to sir thomas leyton's testimony , that he had need to have better ears ; he is a gentleman of worth , his deposition is an oath , and he knew best what he heard ; the truth is , he stood within little distance of my lord when he spake the words , and hath not been deaf above two months , and two other witnesses concur fully with him . for doctor duncombe , whether he be the man that laid aspersions in the north on some noble lords , i know not ; but his testimony only is , that he heard so from one that spake it at the table , not upon oath , and not knowing what use would be made of it . and another witness shall be produced , that will speak to the occasion , and that it was not the matter of knighting-money . sir thomas leyton being asked how long he hath had this infirmity in his hearing . answered , that he got a great cold since he came to town , and had this imperfection since christmas , and had his hearing well before . being asked how far he sate from my lord of strafford . he answered , four yards off . my lord of strafford desired it might be asked the witness , whether he sate on the seat where the sheriff uses to fit , he answered affirmatively . his lordship excepted against his testimony , himself sitting where the president uses to sit , betwixt my lord chief baron and mr. justice vernon : and he appealed to my lord chief baron , whether the presidents seat and the sheriffs seat , be not as far distant , very near as far , as from his lordships then station to the lord steward . but the committee observed it not to be material , that there should be any geometrical measure , but be three , four , five , six or seven yards off . here the committee offered other witnesses , but my lord of strafford desired their lordships judgment , whether they should not bring all together , which the lord steward declared they might as to this point . sir david fowles being produced , was excepted against . my lords , he is no competent witnesse , he lying in the fleet , on a sentence in the star-chamber at my suit , being fined for divers things he had said , which concerned my self , which depended on this in question , and conducing to it . he comes not at his own request or suit , but in a suit that concerns his majesty and the commonwealth , and might offer the presidents own rule in the case , but that the law speaks for him ; that a witness ought to be heard in this cause , though there have been particular ill affections between them , and your lordships well know how to compare him with other witnesses , and to value him accordingly . this hath been resolved in the case of sir pierce crosby , that he should be sworn , and then value his testimony , as the lords shall see cause , and this may be put into the same way . sir david fowles being sworn , the lord steward put them in mind of the former caution , that their lordships would judge the value of his testimony , the committee not admitting what was excepted against him , he being not to obtain any thing for himself , nor his own interest concerned , but produced for the king and commonwealth , and therefore an indifferent witness in the case . and then being interrogated , touching the words of comparison between the king 's little finger and the loins of the law , whether he heard them , and the occasion . sir david fowles answered , he heard him say the very same words , that there were some for law , and nothing but law ; but the king 's little finger should be heavier on them than the loins of the law. the occasion he cannot well remember ; but there was some discontent taken by my lord against him he being desired by a messenger to levy mony to mend a bridge , he told the messenger , he could not well do it of himself , for there was a statute , as he took it h. . that appoints four commissioners to be at the doing of such service , and he being but one , durst not undertake to do it : besides , he said , he must see an order or warrant from the sessions , else he could not do it , and none was shewed . some other exceptions he took to the unlawfulness of the business , and the messenger reported this to my lord , and that he conceived was the cause my lord broke out so violently against him . but being interrogated on what occasion the words in question were spoken . he answered , before my lord went to ireland , he made a speech to the whole county , and desired them to go on in their service ; and so brake out , some are all for law , but they shall find the kings little finger heavier on them than the loins of the law. and this is all he can remember . sir william ingram sworn and examined , touching his knowledge of these words . answered , that he was on the bench at that time , sir thomas leyton was sheriff , and he heard my lord speak these words ; some of you are all for law , but you shall find that the king 's little finger is heavier than the loins of the law , but he doth not remember the occasion . the main point i must insist on is , that the very words , if they had been spoken by me , as they are laid ( concerning which , i call god to witness , i have spoken the truth , and the occasion . ) it is no treason within the statute . and that being a point of law , i crave leave to reserve my self according to your lordships order , that my counsel , in time fitting and proper , may speak as concerning that in point of law. we shall close this article , the last thing mentioned by his lordship was spoken to before ; as to the words , we had five witnesses express in the point , and therefore shall expect your lordships judgment in that . and so the court was adjourned . the fourth day . thursday , march . . the third article . the charge . that the realm of ireland having béen , time out of mind , annexed to the imperial crown of this his majesties realm of england , and governed by the same laws : the said earl being lord-deputy of that realm , to bring his majesties liege-subjects of that kingdom likewise into dislike of his majesties government , and intending the subversion of the fundamental laws , and setled government of that realm , and the destruction of his majesties liege-people there ; did upon the th day of september , in the ninth year of his now majesties reign , in the city of dublin ( the chief city of that realm , where his majesties privy-council , and courts of iustice do ordinarily reside , and whither the nobility and gentry of that realm do usually resort for iustice , ) in a publick speech , before divers of the nobility and gentry of that kingdom , and before the mayor , aldermen , and recorder , and many citizens of dublin , and other his majesties liege-people , declare and publish , that ireland was a conquered nation , and that the king might do with them what he pleased : and speaking of the charters of former kings of england made to that city : he further then said , that their charters were nothing worth , and did bind the king no further than he pleased . i humbly move your lordship , that since diverse things were spoken by the witnesses yesterday , which i conceiving not material as to the charge , forbore to answer to them , whereby i understand i have received some prejudice ; therefore i desire i may now give satisfaction therein , being well able to do it . we hope your lordships remember your own order . we desire he may not have that allowed him to day , which was not granted him yesterday . the evidence having been given for his majesty , my lord of strafford having answered , and the commons replied : touching which the lord steward declared , that the due course had been followed ; the evidence being given for the king , my lord having answered , and a reply made . my lord , this is a court of honour , which is a rule to it self , and no other court is a rule to it ; and therefore if any thing were omitted one day , through want of memory , your lordships may in your nobleness allow another . your lordships being your own judges and rule , and most fit it should be so . i do therefore beseech your lordships , that i may have liberty to offer new matter formerly omitted , else i shall be on great disadvantage , being to answer on a suddain , and had no time till friday last to bring in witnesses , and many perhaps may come up before my trial ends . we desire in the name of the commons of england , we may proceed according to the rule propounded , that his lordship may not invert the course on pretence of new matter , for then it will be impossible for us to make good the charge : ( which was accordingly resolved ) adding further , that there hath been ostentation of more evidence , we desire it may make no impression with your lordships . we shall open the third article , containing very seditious words , spoken by my lord of strafford , in a publick assembly , to the kings subjects , that ireland is a conquer'd nation , that the king may do with them what he pleaseth : and speaking of the charters of dublin , he said , the charters are nothing worth , and binding the king no farther than he pleases . i humbly desire , my lords , that the witnesses may stand in another room from the committee , it being not usual in other courts , though i dare not offer any court to be a rule to this , and that your lordship will direct the question . we have been sensible his lordship hath been large in his imputations . we shall behave our selves as becomes us in duty ; we speak nothing to the witnesses , but what any man may hear , and we must tell them what they must speak to , and less we cannot do . i am the loathest man in the world to speak any thing that may give offence in general or particular ; neither did i charge any , only desired that they might stand clear , and that the question might come immediately to them from your lordship . robert kennyday produced and sworn . i humbly offer to your lordships , that this witness hath been questioned for many misdemeanors , and extortion in execution of his place , as remembrancer of the exchequer , and for this was sentenced ; and that he knew he wished his lordship no great good ; and left it to their lordships , whether he be a fit witness , adding it to be his misfortune , that all that have suffered under the kings justice in his ministry , are ready to be witnesses against him . my lords , if he be guilty of extortion , it follows not that he is therefore guilty of perjury , neither doth any thing stand proved : but if he hath taken a sum of money , that makes him not to be believed when he gives testimony . robert kennyday being examined what words my lord of strafford spake in dublin , of ireland , whether it was a conquer'd nation , and what he said of the charters of dublin , and when . he answered , that . of september , . he was the kings remembrancer in ireland , and that day the new mayor of dublin was presented to my lord. the recorder of the city making a speech , touching the presentment of the mayor , cited many of the favors and graces of the kings and queens of england , and , among the rest , one charter , wherein he alledged was contained ; that no lieutenant , deputy , or governor for the time being , or any justice or justices could assess , or lay any souldiers on the city of dublin , without their consent . that after the recorder had made an end of speaking , my lord lieutenant was pleased to answer him in many particulars : among the rest , he told them , you are a conquer'd nation , and the king may do to you what he pleases , and for your antiquated charters , they bind nothing farther then pleases him. the witness added some things , to take off the aspertions cast on him by his lordship , saying , he was never brought to censure . being asked on my lord of strafford's motion , whether he said they were not void by misusage , or the like . he answered , no truly , not a word that he heard . richard earl of corke produced and sworn . i must profess , my lords , my sorrow and unwillingness to speak my exceptions to the earl of cork , as conceiving him no competent witness , in respect of an information exhibited against him in the castle-chamber , by the king's attorney there , which i desire may be read , and is , i will not say in all the points of it , but so far acknowledged , that he confesses himself , under his hand and seal , to be in the mercy of the king , and desires he may be made the object of his majesties compassion , not of his justice . and when your lordships shall see the nature of it , i appeal to your lordships , whether my lord of cork shall be admitted as a witness against me , especially he being a little displeased , and i am sorry for it ; for something done in the cause , he giving l. for a composition which the king had . there are two grounds of my lord of straffords exception to the earl of corke's testimony , as i conceive . first , his censure , or questioning upon the information against him in the castle-chamber , which we have heard , to be much of the nature of the star-chamber here : and that part we suppose , was cleared by your lordships wisdom yesterday ; that not a censure , much less an information in the star-chamber , should be a fit exception against a witness . the other part is , the ill will which my lord of corke , may bear my lord of strafford on that occasion . truly , ( my lords ) if ill will , and offence against my lord of strafford should be an exception and prejudice to a witness , i am afraid there will be few in the three kingdoms , whose testimonials will not be prejudiced . but this i humbly offer to your lordships likewise , my lord of corke is a privy councellor to his majesty , and made a privy councellor since by his majesty ; and certainly it is not seemly , to have that reproach cast on such a person , that for a prosecution in the star-chamber , he should be made an uncompetent witness . the reading of the information being hereupon denied , my lord of corke was asked , what words he heard my lord of strafford speak , touching ireland being a conquered nation , and that the charters of it were of no value , further then it pleased the king to make them . his lordship answered , and first desired leave to speak a word , hoping he should do no wrong to any man : that when he had obtained my lords licence , under the great seal , to come over hither , he came with as great a resolution , never to complain of any sufferings he had , or to petition against him , as any man did , and left all his papers and writings behind him , that he might have nothing to move him against my lord of strafford , but to do him all the service he could . to the question , his lordship said , that all he can say , is this , that he was present that day the mayor of dublin was presented to my lord deputy that then was , and the recorder set forth the great charters they had from the several kings of england ; and fell on that matter of placing soldiers in dublin , without their consent ; that my lords answer was , you must understand , mr. recorder , ireland is a conquered nation , and the king may give them what laws he pleases . and then going forward with the charters , he said , they be old antiquated charters , and no further good , than the king is pleased to make them : to that sense ( he said ) he is sure . we desire to observe to your lordships , that this time , was not the only time ; he spoke the very words in effect , to the whole kingdom afterwards , in parliament . the lord gorminstone produced and sworn : being asked whether he heard my lord of strafford speak words to the effect as aforesaid , that ireland was a conquered nation , &c. his lordship answered , that he remembers , that in the th year of the kings reign , on occasion of a petition presented to my lord lieutenant , in behalf of the country ( as far as his remembrance leads him ) from the house of commons , desiring the benefit of some graces his majesty had been pleased to confer on them , and he in the open parliament , sitting under the cloth of state , in presence of both houses , told them , ireland was a conquered nation , and they must expect laws as from a conquerour : and the instructions granted from his majesty for setling the government of that kingdom , were procured from a company of narrow-hearted commissioners . being asked on my lord of strafford's motion , when these words were spoken , whether the first day of the parliament , or at any other time : his lordship answered , that to his best remembrance , it was not the first day of the parliament . my lord of strafford saying it was at the opening of the parliament , and the second day ; my lord gorminstone being further asked about the time : his lordship answered , he knew not whether it were the second day , or another day , but the particular words he took notice of ; and it was in presence of both houses of parliament , the speaker standing at the barr. the lord killmallock produced , and sworn ; and interrogated touching the same words . his lordship answered , that he was a member of the commons house , the th and th of the king , and the house of commons petitioned the then lord deputy , the earl of strafford , for the gaining of the act of limitations , for the confirming of their estates , amongst other graces granted to the agents for that kingdom , in the fourth year of the king. these graces he answered to in writing ; and on the second or third day after , came into the house of lords , and there sent for the commons ; and in his speech ( amongst other things , i well remember , and to my grief , and to the grief of that kingdom ) he uttered these words , that that kingdom was a conquered nation , ( the words as he remembred ) and therefore they must expect laws as from a conquerour ; adding further , that the book of instructions , established in king iames his reign , for the orderly government of the courts of justice in that kingdom , were instructions contrived , and procured by a company of narrow-hearted commissioners , who knew not what belonged to government . sir pierce crosby being asked touching the same words , answered , that he very well remembred the words , as they had been spoken by the noblemen that had been examined before him ; my lord of strafford , then lord deputy of ireland , in the hearing of both houses , said , that ireland was a conquered nation , and that the conquerour should give the law. he added further , that the book of instructions for the government of that kingdom , was drawn up , or procured , by the means of some narrow-hearted commissioners , meaning those commissioners that were employed by commission from the king out of the house of commons , being a select committee , whereof there was one that is now a noble member of this house , that sits on the earls bench : and that he hath heard many of both houses , repeat the same words as spoken by him . and so the commons concluded the article , expecting my lord of straffords answer . after a quarter of an hours respit , my lord of strafford began his defence as followeth : first , i desire to open two points set forth in my answer , which under favour , i must stand to , as that by which i must stand or fall . first , that the kingdom of ireland , ( as i conceive ) is governed by customs and statutes , and execution of martial law , and proceedings at council-board , in a different manner from the laws of england . secondly , that touching the charters , i said , these charters were void , and nothing worth , and did not bind the king further than he pleased ; both which i hope to make good . the other business , that comes in de novo , is no part of my charge , and therefore i hope will not be laid to my charge . i observe in the beginning of this part of the charge that concerns ireland , that the governours for the crown of england , that have been it ireland , in all ages , almost , have had these misfortunes , that the native subjects of that country have not been propitious towards them . i instance in the case of sir io. perott , who on testimonies here , was attainted of treason in a legal ordinary way of proceeding , whereupon he lost his estate , though not his life ; and afterwards it was confest , there was little truth in all that accusation . next , my lord of faulkland , against whom , many of the witnesses that i think will come against me , informed ; as sir pierce crosby for one , my lord mountnorris for another , and divers others ; who had so prejudicated me when i went into ireland , in their opinion , by the generality of their charge , that i was a little distrustful whether it was not so : and thus much i have spoken once before his majesty at the council-board , on another occasion , and now speak it to your lordships , to the honour of that person , that is now with god , my lord of faulkland , notwithstanding all the heavy cries that were against him , and the wrongs and injuries laid to his charge , i had the fortune to have all the examinations whereupon they proceeded , and looked over them all ; and now i protest , and call god to witness , not any way as making to me , i found the said lord to have proceeded as honourably , justly , and nobly , to his understanding , as any man could do ; and yet was decryed as much as any man could be . and so i beseech your lordships to consider me the kings servant ; and that in the administration of the commands and justice intrusted with me , i had occasion to give offence to many ; and that it hath been the ill fortune of those that have been governours there , when they have left the government , not to be so well reported as otherwise they might be . besides , there is nothing in this charge can possibly amount to treason , admit all to be as it is laid , though perhaps to a misdemeanour . that if it be no treason , it will fall to be but misdemeanour ; and then i conceive , it stands with the justice and practice of this court , to allow councel and witnesses , which i am debarred from , by the involving me under the general charge of treason ; and having no further time to prepare , then since friday last . that though before , i durst not say your lordships were bound by rules of any judicature , but stood to your own honour and nobleness , and were a rule to your selves , ( and herein i take your lordships to witness ) yet since the gentlemen at the barr , have prest the rules of other courts , i desire leave to offer , that in all ordinary courts of judicature that ever i heard of , where the criminal party doth answer , and that answer is not replyed to , nor he admitted to make his proof , the answer of the party is taken and confest ; from which universal rule of justice , no man can shew him a transgression : and therefore , since i cannot be admitted my proofs , it being impossible to fetch witnesses out of ireland since friday last , my answer , i conceive , ought to be admitted , and the charge taken as i confest it , not as it is on proof . saving to my self , that i said i would go on to give the best answer i could , on a suddain , professing , that if i had had time , i am confident , through the mercy and goodness of god , and the innocency of my own heart , i should be able to clear my self of treason ( the greatest crime between man and man ) towards his majesty , and towards his people , ( my heart being innocent of it ; and never having suggestion or thought , but for the greatness and honour of his majesty , and the prosperity and blessed estate of his people , all the days of my life ; and ever desiring the best things , and never satisfied i had done enough , but did always desire to do better ) but also of all other foul crimes of injustice or oppression : errours i may have many ; perhaps my tongue hath been too free , my heart perhaps , hath lain too near my tongue ; but god forbid every word should rise up in judgment against me . if every word that 's spoken amiss should be observ'd , who is able to endure it ; for words spoken , ten , twelve , eight or nine years ago , to be brought in judgment of me , is a very heavy case ; and i beseech your lordships to turn the case inward , and to tell me if it be not a hard case to be put upon such an examination . i shall observe further , that words ought to be charged within a certain time by the proviso in the stat. in e. . time , they must be brought in question within days as i take it , which proviso stands good in law ; but i go now into a learning that god knows i have little skill of ; to this i desire my councel may in due time be heard , to open and plead . in the mean time i desire to say , that if popular actions must be concluded within a year or two at the most , sure words should be questioned within a less time . i shall proceed to maintain the truth of my answer , that ireland is not governed by the same laws that england is ; and for that i shall read a few words in my lord cooks learning ( which god knows i understand not ) it is in calvins case ; where the words are , so as now the laws of england , became the proper laws of ireland . and therefore because they have parliaments holden there , whereat they have made divers particular laws , as it appears in the h. . . and . and in ed. dyer . and for that they retain to this day divers of the ancient customs , the book of h. . holds , that ireland is governed by laws and customs separate and divers from the laws of england . therefore in all things belonging to my charge that came out of ireland , i hope your lordships will take along with you the consideration of the customs and practices of that kingdom , and not judge me according to that which hath been the custom and practice of the kingdom of england . in the second place , i come to the words of ireland being a conquered nation ; the words laid in the charge being , that i should say ; that ireland was a conquered nation , and the king might do with them what he pleased . and first , i should do extreamly ill to the honour of the english nation , and to the memory of divers of your lordships noble ancestors , if i should not both say and think , that ireland is a conquered nation ; when here 's mention made in the laws , and in the acts of state , of english rebels , and irish enemies , certainly there is something in that ; for till the kings of england gave them the advantage and benefit of the laws of england , it is well known , they were held irish enemies , and so termed and stiled in all the records one shall meet withall in these times . and that it was a conquered nation , i have very good authority in the statute made eliz. at the attainder of that famous rebel shan oneale . in one part of which it is said , that all the clergy of the realm assembled in armagh , at the time of the conquest , &c. see the statute . is it then so much for me to say what 's in the act ? and is it not for the honour of the english nation to say it ? and it must be said to the worlds end , for 't is a truth . and therefore there is no cause it should be taken so hainously , or heard with so much displeasure ; and if i displease for telling the truth , i cannot help it : he reads another part of it , viz. and therefore it is to be understood , that king hen. . the first conqueror of this realm , &c. and so it hath been acknowledged in all stories and times , and many an english man hath spent his blood in it , whose posterity will be ashamed to view it , other than as a conquered kingdom . nay , i believe many noble persons are yet living , that have bled for it , and will take it ill , if it be termed less than a conquest , in them who lived in those famous times , and spent their blood in obedience to their soveraigns command . so that by these words candidly and rightly taken , no manner of ill could come , being spoken , not with any sharpness or upbraiding , but meerly to let them see , that being in that condition , they were infinitely bound to the kings of england , who were pleased to communicate to them the laws of their own kingdom : and so far were they from being taken ill , that no man at that time took offence at them . for the words , the king might do with them what he pleased , let them relate to the conquest , and there is no offence in them ; for the conqueror might give them what laws he pleased , and yet nevertheless , hath been so gracious and good , as to give them the laws of his own people : give me that understanding of the words , and then where is the crime ? how can it be brought in judgment against me in it self , or be aggravated to high treason . i acknowledge i did speak to the recorder of dublin , yet some things i am put in mind of , which i am forced to deny with a great asseveration , that i do not remember the words , nay , i am sure i never spake them , let all the world , and a cloud of witnesses , say the contrary , when i know in my own heart i did not speak them ; though i offer not this to your lordships , to convince your judgments : and on the other side , there is nothing that is true , but i will acknowledge it with all ingenuity in the world , on the testimony of any one single witness . i desire that mr. slingsby , his servant , might be asked , whether he was not present when i spake these words ; and whether then any offence was taken at me , in respect of the high manner of my speaking ; or whether they were not rather extreamly well satisfied . now if your lordships take words in pieces , and not altogether , any man living may be convinced ; but taking my words altogether , though something might be thought harsh , yet something gave abundant satisfaction . i am upon a mighty prejudice , in being denied to have my witnesses examined upon oath in these things that are not treason . but they be persons of good credit , and i trust your lordships will believe them , as much as if they spake on oath , since i think none of them would say a word to your lordships , which they would not swear . mr. slingsby being asked , whether he was present when my lord of strafford spake to the recorder of dublin , what he said , and what acceptance it received . he answered , he was then present , being on the occasion of presenting sir robert dixton , the mayor of dublin ; that he cannot remember the particular words , nor deliver them to their lordships , as they were spoken by the lord-lieutenant : but he remembers particularly the scope of the discourse was to ingratiate his majesties present government to them ; that the words were well accepted by several persons whom he spake with , and took that effect , that his lordship was thereupon invited to the mayors house , where divers of the city congratulated his coming to them . i shall now proceed to the second part of the words , that their charters were nothing worth , and they bind the king no farther than he pleases ; and i conceive i may say so still . if their charters be nothing worth , they do not bind the king , but he may do with them what he pleases . in that , i desire your lordships to call to mind what my lord of corke said , that ireland was a conquer'd nation , and the king might give them what laws he pleased , and that the charters were antiquated , and no farther good , than it pleased his majesty to make them . it is likely ( i confess ) i might say so , and yet not say amiss ; for it is most evident and clear , their charters are void in point of law , and therefore it is in the king 's good will and pleasure , whether he will make them good or no. and that they were void , the king's council informed me so ; that they were questioned at council-board upon it , for divers unlawful exactions they took , under colour of charters , for divers by-laws that they had made , against law , by those charters , for divers neglects of duties that they ought to do by those charters ; and generally , for not performing the trust reposed in them , by those charters , with that integrity and care they ought to do and for the truth of it , that many complaints were made against the mayor and aldermen at that board , for neglecting their duty : i dare appeal to my lord of corke . i adding this , that the greatest part of the aldermen were recusants , and would never be brought to obey the order of the board ; but stood on their charters , and would be masters ; and by that means great disorders continued . and to prove that upon examination , they appeared to be void in law. i desire sir george ratcliffe may be admitted to speak on what grounds those charters were called in , and are now ( as i think ) deposited with the clerk of the council . sir george ratcliffe standing charged with high treason , by the commons of england , before your lordships , and of a conspiracy with my lord of strafford ; and whether it be fit to hear one charged with high-treason , to clear another so charged , we appeal to your lordships . that sir george ratcliffe is charged to be a conspirator with me indeed , and , in truth , i must confess sir george ratcliffe and my self ( under favour ) are equally guilty of treason , and i hope we shall both justifie our selves ; but i know so much of him , that i am not ashamed to say , that i think that sir george ratcliffe is my friend , and i wish him well , and so i think will all other men ( i trust in god ) when they hear him . but i conceive sir george ratcliffe might be heard in these points ; if he be examined as a witness against me , i desire he may be examined as a witness for me . sir george ratcliffe is not examined , nor at all sworn in the cause on our motion , and admitted , that if they produced him as a witness , they would not deny my lord of strafford to cross examine him . the lord steward declared the sense of their lordships , that sir george ratcliffe could not be examined . i shall readily obey ; but yet observe , that if it were only matter of misdemeanor , he might be examined , though charged . but this is my unhappiness , to be debarred of my witnesses , because i am charged with treason in general , though there be nothing in particular that 's near the complexion of treason . we desire to observe , that this justifies a part of our charge , for the charter of the subjects liberties are , as his lordship confesseth , brought to the council table , and judged there , and not to the proper courts where they ought to be judged ; the council-table having no power to declare the validity or invalidity of charters from the king to the subject . i crave liberty to explain my self , that i said not they were brought to the council-table to be judged , but that consideration might be had , whether there was ill usage and extortion practised under colour of them or no ; whether any thing were done that hindred the growth of that town , and the good of the people , and the protestant religion , that it might appear how the business stood in point of state ; but to give a judgment upon them in law , it was never in my thoughts . robert lord dillon being then asked , whether the charters of dublin have not been brought before the council of ireland , there to be considered concerning the validity of them , and whether it did not appear that for divers occasions , exactions and tolls , and by-laws , and other abuses in the exercise of these charters ; they did not appear to the king 's learned council , and others learned in the law , to be void . he answered , that it was a question he did not expect ; and yet being called , he should faithfully and freely tell his knowledge of it , to his best remembrance : that he doth remember very well , that the charters of dublin have been brought to the council-board , and argued strongly against by the kings learned council . that there was one particular of d. custom challenged by the city , which endured a very long debate : that it was argued against them , that they exercised by-laws , contrary to the common law of the land , and that divers other things were urged against them ; but he remembers not the particular determination of the board upon the question . being asked severally , what time those charters were so brought , and how long after my lord of strafford's coming into ireland . he answered , that he precisely remembreth not the time , but he takes it to be five or six years ago , something more or less , and he thinks about a year or two after my lord of strafford's coming , but he remembers not the time , not expecting to be interrogated in it . we desire your lordships to observe , that the words were spoken before the charters were brought to the council-board . it follows not , that because they were questioned at council-board afterwards , i did not therefore know them to be void , when i spoke of them , for they were complained of in parliament , as great grievances , in the exercising of them , and to that purpose i desire my lord dillom may be heard . and being asked what he knew concerning the charters of dublin , being questioned in the commons house for divers oppressions , unlawful by-laws , and other ill usage of their liberties . he answered , that he was a member of the first parliament after my lords coming into ireland , . after this visitation of the mayor some half an year , but he knows not the time precisely . that divers members of that house did object divers misdemeanors , in mis●sing the priviledges of those charters . that the particulars were several by-laws which they did execute , contrary to the common law : another was , that by the priviledge of those charters , they excluded divers of the tradesmen that came out of england to set up manufactures there , which was conceived a great grievance to that kingdom . another was , that having the government of that town , being a navigable port , they permitted the soil to be emptied into the river , without care or regard . that at the time of the presentment of the mayor , my lord took occasion to advise and advertise the mayor of several defects in that town , and divers of the commons house of that parliament are here that were present . hence observe the reason and grounds of my exception to these charters , and the effects of questioning them , which were two : first , by this means i am perswaded ( and thereof i beseech the honourable house of commons to take notice , as that which is reputed my greatest crime in ireland ) there be three protestants in dublin , at this hour , for one that was there when i came over ; for the townsmen did keep all the trade , and ingross all the manufactures into their own hands ; and being natives , and romish catholicks , did depress the english , that strangers out of england had little advantage of trade . and whatsoever any man may say or think on information from persons that do not love me , who are members of neither house ( for so i desire to be understood , when i speak of persons unfriendly to me ; i complain of nothing that is or shall be done me here , but will leave it all , with thankfulness to god almighty , and with that duty and reverence to this house , that becomes me . ) it will be known hereafter , when i perhaps am in my grave , that my greatest fault in ireland , hath been my extream zeal to bring them to conform with the church of england , which by that means hath provoked a great deal of displeasure . and secondly , i observe , that this argues no great malice in my heart , nor desire to oppress the king's people , when i shall tell your lordships , that to this day those charters were never legally questioned , but are enjoyed . so far was i from pressing rigorously any thing against them , i desiring nothing but reformation , and to have them what they ought to be , and to leave them not less , but more happy than i found them . and if i should serve there again , as i hope i shall serve only god almighty , and my master with my prayers , they should be freed from all exactions and misusings of them , tending to the prejudice of the town , the king's service , and the service of almighty god. and so i hope i have made a clear answer to so much as was charged , to free my self from guilt of treason , reserving to my self the advantage of having my counsel heard , in proper time , to the matter of treason in point of law , according to the liberty your lordships have afforded me . next , i shall proceed to that which is proved , and no way charged , which i forbore to speak to the day before , as holding it an impertinent expence of time to your lordships , and a spending of my own spirits , which , god knows , are weak and infirm indeed . if i were permitted to speak this morning to all the things extrajudicially formerly offered , i should give a free and clear answer . but suffering by my ignorance and silence then , i now desire leave to answer those things that came de novo , and that by three witnesses , touching words spoken at another time to both houses of parliament . i confess it to be true , that the second day of the last parliament , but this that is now sitting , i had the honour to sit as his majesties deputy , and it was the greatest honour that ever i received ; and i should be loath to say any thing , sitting in that place , that should not fully comply with the goodness , clemency , and justice of his majesty , or should mis-represent him in any kind to his people in another sense , or to other purpose than his own great and princely vertues do merit and deserve . and that all i said at that time tended to that purpose , to shew and set forth to them the excellent goodness of his majesty , and the graciousness of his government . therefore if i should say any thing to the purpose , as it is offered , i should go much against the purpose for which i intended my discourse . for me to have said openly there , in the king's chair , that they were a conquer'd nation , and must expect laws from him , as from a conqueror , when i knew it most false ; and expected from his majesty , that he would govern them by the same righteous rules of justice and honour ( as his predecessors had before him ) i had been much too blame , and it had been against the drift of my discourse . and i must say , and will say , to the death , i never spake such words , that they must expect laws from him as from a conqueror . i know very well how it is proved , and what my own affirmation doth in foro iudicii ; but how it may work in foro conscientiae , i trust i have so much credit left in the world , as to be known to be a man of truth , and not usually to speak untruths . and i take the heavenly god to witness , that i never spake them . i remember the words , and the occasion by a good token , without which i should not have remembred them ; my friends desiring a copy of my speech , which copy is in ireland ; and were it here , would satisfie every man. it was to incline them to take into consideration the great debt that lay on the crown , being near l. the shortness of the revenue , which was then short of the yearly charge l. though the first day it was stood upon , and would have been coloured over , as if there had been no such thing . i was to move thereunto a supply to pay the debt , and to improve the revenue to such a height as might answer the charge of the kingdom ; that to induce this , i told them the kingdom of england had expended great and vast sums of money , and had issued a great deal of noble blood for the reducing of them to obedience , and in that happy state wherein they then lived . that they must not think the kingdom of england must always bear the charge of the crown , but they must so fit the business , that the kingdom may bear its own charge ; for , said i , and these are the words , ( i take god almighty to witness ) and no other . if the kingdom of england should still be put to their charges , and the whole expence should still rest on the conqueror , you might very well think you are so dealt withall , as never any other conquer'd nation had been . that on these words my lord of ormond came to me , and told me , that the words he had spoken were not well taken ; for that i had said , the irish are a conquer'd nation , and that is not well . i answered his lordship , truly , my lord , you are a conquer'd nation , but you see how i speak it , and no otherwise . but this i am not charged with , and offer it only to keep and preserve me in a good opinion , as much as i can of both houses of parliament , which i desire of all things under heaven , next the favour of almighty god , and his gracious majesty . he then proceeded to examine witnesses : and first robert lord dillom being asked , whether he was present when he spake these words to both houses of parliament , and what they were ? we desire to put your lordships in mind that there were two times when my lord spake such words ; one , when he spake to hoth houses of parliament at the publick speeeh now mentioned ; the other , upon delivering a petition by the house of commons : that the words which the commons charge , were the last mentioned by me , not the first , and that was desired to be observed . the question being repeated . the lord dillom answered , that he served as a member of the commons house that parliament , and in respect of the honour he had to be of the king's council , and the son of a peer of the realm , he stood under the cloath of state , and was present when my lord made his speech to both houses ; for that passage of the conquest , some touch there was of it ; and he hath heard my lord of ormond speak in particular of it : for the other words , that they should expect laws as from a conqueror , he took god to witness , he did not remember them . being asked whether he remembers them to be spoken at any other time : he answered , that on his soul he doth not . sir adam loftus being asked to the same purpose . he answered , that he was the first and the last day at the parliament , that he doth not well remember the middle day , and he cannot burden his memory with any such words spoken that he heard either then , or at any other time . sir robert king was called , and asked to the same purpose . he answered , that he thinks he was present that day , but not within hearing , and he never heard the words at any other time . lord renula being asked , whether then , or at any time he heard my lord of strafford say , they must expect laws from the king , as from a conqueror . he answered , that he was then in the house , and remembers the words in the first place , that ireland was a conquer'd nation ; that for the words in the second place , something was spoken , but how far he cannot witness . sir george wentworth questioned on the same point . answered , that he sate under the chair of state at that time , and remembers not that my lord ever spake these words , that the king might do with them as he pleased . that it pleased my lord-lieutenant to send him into england at that time , to attend his majesty , with the success of that parliament , and that he brought the speech with him , and can confidently affirm , there was no such thing in the speech ; and the speech he did deliver to some privy-counsellor , and added , that he never heard my lord publickly or privately say those words , they must expect laws from the king as from a conqueror . we desire to know , whether the witness was returned out of england when this remonstrance was delivered . for the commons charge it thus , that the house of commons delivered a petition , to have the laws executed according to the instructions , upon which the words were spoken , and we believe sir george wentworth was not come back , and then it was impossible he should hear him , for it was after the parliament had sate , and some proceedings had . i observe , how it is in some of the witnesses , for my lord gorminstone fixed it on the first beginning of the parliament . he spake it to the occasion of the petition , but the distinct time he doth not remember . sir george wentworth being asked touching the time of his going into england . he desired to know what time the petition was delivered ; but he went over some few days after the subsidies were granted . lord robert digby being asked , whether at the parliament at dablin , or any other time , he ever heard my lord of strafford speak those words . he answered , that he never did ; that he doth not know whether he was present at that time or no ; that he did diligently wait , but doth not remember the words , nor occasion , but he thinks he was not present . your lordships have heard my lord of strafford's defence with much patience , that he hath said nothing that takes off the charge , but some things that aggravate it . that he would answer the particulars , as his lordship had propounded them . and first he observed , that his lordship denies not the words charged , which makes greater way for proof of them . he informs of the ill fortune of other governors , that one was attainted , and the informations afterwards retracted , that my lord of faulkland was complained of , yet a noble and good governor , against whom , or any deputy , we can say nothing : but what is this for my lord strafford to say , others were questioned , therefore he is innocent . these were complaints of particular men , this against my lord of strafford , is the complaint of all the commons of england . it is said , here is no treason in this article , no argument of treason ; but the commons never pressed these words singly and dividedly , to be treason ; but take all together , they discover that disposition , that counsel , that resolution that my lord of strafford had taken on him , the ruine and subversion of the common law , in both kingdoms . it is said , an answer is put in , and no replication . it is true , in other courts , if you go on bill and answer , the answer is taken pro confesso ; but the commons desire not to bind up my lord of strafford with formalities ; but by the substance of their charge , they have averred their charge , which is as much as a denial of his answer . to there being another government in ireland than in england , my lord himself spoke of it by himself ; but he thinks it will not be material to this purpose ; for whatsoever it is , some government there is : but the speech of my lord tends to take away all laws ; for they must expect laws as from a conqueror , in that limitation . for his referring it to the time , taking it in the sense , that the then conqueror might do what he pleased , that 's true , and justifiable : but that is to suppose the words otherwise than they are ; being spoken , not of the kings that were before , but of his majesty that now is . my lord would make an argument , his words were well accepted , because mr. slingsby heard nothing to the contrary ; the words had much acrimony and sharpness , and we dare not believe the mayor of dublin durst tell my lord of strafford so , or forbear any complement to him , though he had been displeased with him . but if that be material , the witnesses that have proved the words , will tell your lordships , it was resented with a great deal of grief and sorrow in all the hearers . his lordship justifies what was spoken of the charters , on these grounds , first , that the witness said they were antiquated charters , and therefore did not bind ; whereas it was a scornful epithite , their antiquated , and worm-eaten charters , did not bind . it is said , they were void through negligences , questioned at council-table , complained of in parliament . but they must take the words to pieces , not altogether . had he spoken of the charters alone , that they were void charters , it were no crime , no indiscretion . but take it with the occasion and connexion , it admits of no such mitigation , or interpretation . he tells them , they are a conquered nation , and they must expect laws as from a conqueror : and they are a conquered nation , and their charters are no further good than the king pleases . it is said , it is strict to answer presently what may be objected ; and the examinations are extrajudicial ; we doubt not but your lordships will justifie-our proceedings , nor is there any strictness in them ; for if a man be questioned of a crime , and several evidences be brought to make up this crime , some concurrent , some precedent , they will be allowed of in other courts ; it being never used , to set forth in a charge all circumstances of proof , the main is produced , and this is an evidence to prove that , and it is within the charge ; for there is a charge , that he corrupts the laws and government . then my lord produces divers witnesses , who speak in a different sense , sir robert king heard nothing ; another , that he remembers nothing ; and if he remembers nothing , it may as well be said of the rest , that there might be something they did not hear , or remember ; for they speak no more , but they did not remember ; there may be something they forgot , as well as another forget all . my lord ranulagh says , he remembers the first words , and something as spoken of the second ; but he cannot tell how far : so that there is rather a doubt , that something was spoken to that purpose , than otherwise . the lord digby was not present , sir george wentworth remembers not the words ; he hath a copy of the speech , and is confident the words were not spoken . but they were not spoken in the first speech , whereof there was a copy , when the petition for the laws was delivered . and this is an aggravation against my lord of strafford , that by his own shewing , there was an exception taken , when he spoke in a milder sense , and to advance his majesties government , it had an ill impression , and was taken notice of , and the exception delivered to himself . now if after exception taken to a speech delivered in parliament , cloathed with so much mildness , he in the same parliament , as soon as subsidies are granted , shall tell them , they are a conquered nation , and shall not have graces , but such laws as the king will give them : this puts the offence in higher terms than before ; so far are they from mitigation of the offence . we desire witnesses may be heard concerning the circumstance of time . mr. fitzgarret produced , and sworn . was asked whether he knew of a petition delivered to the earl of strafford by the commons , concerning the laws ; and how in time it followed the publick speech at the beginning of the parliament , and what answer was given to it . he answered , that he was then a member of the commons house , and present when the petition was delivered : but after the house of commons had given the king six subsidies , the house of commons entred into consideration , of petitioning for such things as were necessary and expedient for the common-wealth , as they thought ; this petition was preferred to the lord deputy , a good space of time after the subsidies were granted , and advertisement sent to england , of the good service done in obtaining those subsidies from the house of commons , that he remembers not any part of the answer given ; there was an answer given in writing , either at council-table , or in full parliament , from the house of lords ; but that he spake only to the point of time . my lord of strafford did here affirm it to be most certainly true , that the petition concerning the things mr. fitzgarret mentions , was delivered at council-board , and not in parliament ; and desiring mr. fitzgarrets further explanation of himself : he answered , that he conceives there were two petitions ; one , as he thinks , concerning the performance of the instructions of . whereunto an answer might be given at council-board ; and he believes it was subscribed by many of the council . there was another petition of grievances , seeking redress of them ; and to whether of these his lordship gave an answer in parliament , he remembers not ; but believes there was an answer made to both , or one of them , in full parliament . the lord gorminstone being demanded at what time , and on what occasion my lord of strafford spake the words , he was examined on before , in the parliament at dublin : he answered , a petition was delivered to my lord of strafford , and he spake to the house , wherein he spake the words that he had formerly related , that they must expect laws as from a conqueror ; and that the instructions published for the setling of that government , were procured by a company of narrow hearted commissioners ; that he did not then remember the certain time ; but he is sure it was in parliament ; and so resented , that almost all took notice of it ; when most part were english and british extractions , and very few irish. the lord killmallock being demanded to the same purpose , answered , that he conceived the occasion was , a delivery of a petition to his lordship . it is true , it was not delivered in parliament , nor were the words spoken at the council-table where the petition was delivered : but he conceives , it was on occasion of delivering that petition , that his lordship speaks : for after the petition was delivered , three or four days after , his lordship came to the parliament house , he called both houses before him , and there delivered these words , that ireland was a conquered nation , and therefore must expect laws as from a conqueror . adding further , that the book of instructions , meaning the book printed in king iames his reign , for the orderly government of the courts of justice , was contrived and procured by a company of narrow-hearted commissioners , who knew not what belonged to government . the words , he said , he remembers very perfectly , as having great misery on his heart in the speaking : and whereas it is said , none did take notice of them ; they did , but they durst not , it wrought inwardly ; and had they spoken of it , they expected no redress , but a greater addition of calamity to them . we shall now proceed , and observe , that this article touching the laws of ireland , gives the ground-work of what follows in the subsequent articles concerning ireland . and first , we desire your lordships to take into remembrance , that though ireland differ in some particular statutes from england , yet they enjoy the same common law , without any difference . that by the statute h. . in ireland , it is enacted , that every cause shall be remitted to its proper court ; it is true , the king hath this prerogative , not to be tied to sue in the kings-bench ; but may sue in any courts of justice , for matters triable in the common-pleas , or chancery , or exchequer ; all courts are open to him , wherever he will have his cause judged ; but with the subject , the proper cause must go to the proper court , and according to this , the exercise and use is continued in that kingdom . some incroachments being made , king iames , of blessed memory , took consideration of it , he appointed commissioners , and instructions were printed in pursuance of this : a noble earl now present , justice iones , sergeant crew , and divers others , were imployed in that service . these instructions , as they remit the causes to the proper courts , so they declare , that it had crept in at the council-table in latter times , to take oaths ; but direct , that it shall be forborn for matters of interest and complaint between party and party , and matters of title . and it stays not here ; but a proclamation is issued to the same effect . this statute , these instructions , and this proclamation , we desire may be read . accordingly the statute was read , whereby it was ordained to the governour of the land , or other officer for the time being , he that accuses , shall find sufficient sureties for the damage of him that is accused ; and if it shall be adjudged that the suggestion or accusation , is not true , &c. and also , that he that is arrested , may go by surety or bail , till the matter be determined . and if it be matter of treason or felony , to be remitted to the kings-bench ; if conscience , to the chancery ; if franchise , to the seneschal of the liberty ; if for debt , to the common-pleas , &c. saving the kings prerogative . then part of the instructions were read , published . wherein it is ordered , that the council-table shall keep it self within its proper bounds . amongst which , the patents of plantations , and the offices on which the grants are founded , are to be handled as matters of state , and to be determined by the lord deputy and council publickly , but titles between party and party , are to be left to the ordinary course of law , and neither lord-deputy , governour , nor council-table , hereafter to intermeddle , or trouble themselves with ordinary businesses , within cognizance of ordinary courts , nor meddle with possession of land , nor make or use , private orders , hearings , or references concerning such matters , nor grant injunctions , nor orders for stay of suits at common law , causes recommended from the council of england , and spiritual causes concerning the church , excepted . then the proclamation was read , dated november . . whereby it is commanded , that the deputy and council-chamber in ireland then , and from time to come , shall not entertain , or take consideration of any private cause or causes , or controversies between party and party , concerning their private and particular estates , nor any cause or controversie of that board , which are not of that nature that do properly concern matter of state ; but that all causes and controversies of that nature , moved or depending between party and party , concerning private and particular interests , be proceeded in in the ordinary courts of that kingdom respectively , to whom the cognizance of these causes and controversies doth belong , &c. for that objection from the opinion of my lord cooke in calvins case , if it were an opinion to the contrary in an argument , it is no binding authority ; but that opinion is nothing at all against what hath been said ; for it is express , that ireland did retain the same common law with england . it is true , ireland hath statutes and customs particularly retained ; and so there be divers particular customs in england , that differ from the common law , yet are approved and allowed in it ; as in wales , and the custom of gavel-kind , and the common law , which is the general government , is the same . if there be any statute that gives my lord of strafford , as governour alone , power to take cognizance of meerly private causes , it is something to the purpose to say , there is a particular statute ; but till that be shewed , he hath in this , erected an arbitrary power . and so he concluded the reply , and the third article . the fourth article . the charge . that richard earl of corke , having sued out process in course of law , for recovery of his possessions , from which he was put , by colour of an order made by the said earl of strafford , and the council-table of the said realm of ireland , upon a paper petition , without legal procéeding , did the th day of february , in the th year of his now majesties reign , threaten the said earl , ( being then a péer of the said realm ) to imprison him , unless he would surcease his suit , and said , that he would have neither law nor lawyers , dispute or question his orders . and the th day of march , in the said th year , the said earl of strafford , speaking of an order of the said council-table of that realm , made in the time of king james , which concerned a lease which the said earl of corke claimed in certain rectories or tythes , which the said earl of corke alledged to be of no force , said , that he would make the said earl , and all ireland know , that so long as he had the government there , any act of state there made , or to be made , should be as binding to the subjects of that kingdom , as an act of parliament ; and did question the said earl of corke in the eastle . chamber there , upon pretence of breach of the said order of council-table ; and did sundry other times , and upon sundry other occasions , by his words and spéeches , arrogate to himself a power above the fundamental laws , and established government of that kingdom ; and scorned the said laws and established government . one of the managers opened the th article , and said , the former articles shew my lord of straffords words , this his actions . this article concerns my lord of corke's being disseized of an impropriate rectory , upon a paper petition to my lord of strafford , and referred to the council-table , the earl of strafford saying , upon the questioning of the proceedings thereupon , that neither law nor lawyers , should question or dispute his orders ; an order of council-board in king iames his time , enjoyning , that no parson , patron , or ordinary , should make a lease for longer time , than the life of the incumbent , was made use of as a ground to dispossess the earl of corke . in the first place , we desire to open the proceedings at council-table before my lord of straffords time , ( viz. ) that in no case concerning land , no decree hath been there made , to bind up the party for remedy at law. the lord ranulagh being interrogated , whether by the course of proceedings at council-table , the deputy and council have determined title of land and possession , and interrupted the parties to proceed at law. he answered , that he hath observed the course of the board for years ; and the course was , that if title of land , between party and party , were in debate , it was commonly dismissed from the board , with a leading order , to be tried by course of common law. being asked , whether a deputy alone hath determined private interest . he answered , that he cannot positively say , whether it were done privately ; but to the best of his remembrance , he knows not that ever any deputy determined any matter of private interest , but brought it to the board , though by reference , or private proceeding , it might have proceeded before it came to the board . my lord of strafford desired he might be asked , whether he ever knew , that any matter of inheritance was ever by himself and the council determined , whilst he was governour there , that was barely title of land , and nothing else . he answered , and desired to explain himself concerning the former , that causes of the church , and matters of plantations , were resolved in former deputies times , to be dispatched at the board . and for the latter question , he never knew matter of title determined at the board , but in causes of the church , and plantations . my lord of strafford desired he might be asked , whether as president of connaught , he did not familiarly , on paper petitions , rule all things in the same nature , as the deputy on petitions to him . the fifth day . friday , march . . after consideration of this matter by their lordships , it was resolved in the upper-house , that my lord ranulagh ought not to be examined on that point , it tending to an accusation of himself . the earl of corke being sworn , and questioned touching my lord of straffords words to him , upon his excepting against the orders made upon the petition touching the said rectory . his lordship answered , that he had been in possession , as tenant of the crown thirty five years , of a rectory and certain tythes in the county of tiperany , for which he paid a yearly rent ; and having enjoyed it so long , my lord presented to it arthur gwyn , that had been his coach-mans groom . that when he heard of it , he went to my lord privately , and told his lordship , that he was his majesties farmer of those tythes , and paid a rent ; and desired he might not be sued for them in the council-chamber : but if a suit must be ommenced , that it might be in the proper court , the exchequer . that my lord told him , he should answer it there : that he did so , and my lord ordered it against him ; that a commission went down , and examinations were taken : and after my lord had ordered it against him , an order of course was set down , that gwyn should have them till i recovered them by course of law. that thereupon , i brought an action against him , and his tenants , who were arrested , and came to dublin ; and then went to my lord , and dr. bramhill , bishop of derry . that thereupon i was sent for before my lord lieutenant that then was ; and my lord lieutenant told me , sir , you have taken out writs against gwyn , to whom i ordered the tythes of the rectory . i confest i had , and desired to know why he aked me so ; adding , that i am sure your lordship will not take away my possession , by a paper bill , without trial. that my lord of strafford answered , call in your writs , or if you will not , i will clap you in the castle ; for i tell you , i will not have my orders disputed by law , nor lawyers . gwyn was a poor man , and if he should get the rents of the impropriation into his hands , i could not get them again : and therefore i desired security , that if by course of law i should recover it , i might have it again ; that my lord of strafford thereupon said , it was very fit and just ; but the order being brought unto me , i said there was no such thing in the order . being desired by the earl of strafford to repeat the last over again , i say , that i told the lieutenant , that i did hold , the council-chamber could not hold plea of this , and thereupon cited h. . the book of orders , the proclamation . then i moved his lordship , that in regard gwyn was a poor man , and not answerable , and might get the rents , being near marks a year , he might give security for the rents , if i should recover them by course of law ; that my lord of strafford thought it just it should be so entred in the order . and being asked how that came to be left out , he answered , that sir paul davis , the clerk of the council , told him , my lord of strafford found fault with it , and struck it out with his own hand . being asked what words he heard from my lord of strafford , concerning the said order at council-board , in king iames his time : he answered , that there was a parsonage in the county of kerry , in his presentment , and it fell void ; the dean , and some others , commended one atkinson to be his vicar , that on their commendation , not knowing him himself , he presented him , without any consideration . that atkinson afterwards fell into decay , and was imprisoned ; and the prison being very loathsome , the bishop wrote unto him , this deponent , and sent him a lease , under the hand and seal of him the said bishop , and the incumbent , with a label for his the deponents hand , and desired him to seal it for s. a year to another , that atkinson might pay his debts , and stock himself with cattle ; that he the deponent , refused it , though brought miles from his house , fearing it might be prejudicial to the next clerk. that the bishop sent atkinson's wife back over the mountains with his letter , and the lease ; and he the earl of corke , did sign it then ; for , seeing the misery of the poor woman , and her children , he thought it a work of charity ; and it continued so till my lord of strafford came to the government . that then he had a bill preferred against him in the star-chamber , for breaking an act of state , that none should make a lease for longer than the incumbents life , and desired that the bill should be read , in all the proceedings of it ; that thereupon he told the earl of strafford , it was a work of charity , and he never heard of such an act of state , being not published , and made in king iames his time , and in the lord grandisons government , who are both dead : and therefore he conceived , there was no cause to charge , or prosecute him for it , being but an act of state. that my lord of strafford answered , i tell you , my lord , as great as you are , i will make you , and all the subjects of ireland know , that any act of state made , or to be made , shall be as binding to you , and the subjects of ireland , during my government , as an act of parliament . being asked on my lord of straffords motion , whether the order made in the case of gwyn , was not made by the major part of the votes of the board : he answered , that he did say that it was voted at the council-table , but he knows not whether it were done by the major part ; and afterwards ( with a lower voice ) his lordship added , that he thinks it was never voted . iohn waldron sworn ; was examined touching the words my lord of strafford was charged to say , touching an act of state , being equal to an act of parliament ; and the occasion : he answered , it was his chance to be at council-table , when a cause , depending between the merchants of galloway , and some others , that prosecuted the business in behalf of the church , about a lease made by the dean of derry ; which was debated at the council-board . and there was one mr. martin of council for the merchants , and he pressing hard for his clients ; it pleased my lord to think he had over-shot himself , or was too forward ; and asked what he had to say , that he prest that cause so hard ; that mr. martin answered him , he had an act of parliament , or statute , or to that purpose . that my lord of strafford replied again , sir , i will make you know , that an act of this board shall be as good as any act , or statute , or words to that effect . iohn kay , after some exceptions taken by the earl of strafford against him , as no fit witness in respect of his prosecuting a suit against his lordship , for the lady hibbotts , which was over-ruled by their lordships , was sworn , and being asked touching the said words to be spoken by the earl of strafford , and the occasion and the time . he answered , that he was present at council-table by chance , when there was a cause , wherein mr. martin pleading for his clients : my lord-deputy then asked him , what made him so earnest for it ; he said , he had an act of parliament , or statute , to justifie his cause . hereupon my lord-deputy answered , he should know , that as long as himself sate in that place , an act of state should be as strong as an act of parliament , or words to that effect . being asked of the time . he answered , he doth not remember the time , but it was three years and upwards . it was before iuly . but the day and year he remembers not ; but it was in the case where mr. martin was council . my lord corke being asked about the time , he said , it was in . about february . mr. waldron being asked , whether it was in a church-cause . answered , my lord-deputy made an offer , that if they would take a lease for years , at full value , they should have it . but if they would stand on the trial of the lease , they must take the adventure . and mr. hoy being asked , whether it was a church-cause . he answered , he conceived the church was interested in it . lord kill mallock asked , whether he heard my lord strafford say , an act of council should be as valid as an act of parliament , when , on what occasion , and to what scope . he answered , that he was at council-table some four or five years ago , and there did hear my lord of strafford say to one of the council ( he cannot say it was mr. martin ) he would have him know , as long as himself was governor , an act of state should be as binding as an act of parliament ; on what occasion he cannot say . he further said , that in the th year of the king , in the parliament held in ireland , he heard sir george ratcliffe ( my lord of strafford's eccho ) in that house , say , on occasion of a bill that was cast out in that house , making it felony for any to have powder without licence . it is all one , he would have an act of state for it , which should be as binding as an act of parliament . sir pierce crosby was asked , whether he heard my lord of strafford at another time say , an act of council should be as valid as an act of parliament , when , on what occasion , to what intent . he answered , that he doth very well remember the words , the time not precisely ; but he was sure it was soon after my lords coming into ireland , and before the parliament , and was the cause of the first exception against him the said sir pierce crosby , for he reasoned it with his lordship , being at his own table at dinner , there being then present , and sitting next to him , a member of this honourable house , my lord castlehaven . there were likewise my lord osmond , and several others of the council of ireland . the words were these , that if he lived , he would make an act of state to be of equal power with an act of parliament . that he , the deponent , thought his lordship spoke it merrily , and answered him in the same kind , saying , my lord , when you go about to do this , i will believe some body will rise , as an english gentleman did in england , and desire a clause of exception , that it may not reach to himself , his kindred and friends . that my lord of strafford looked on him very earnestly , and said , he would take him , whosoever he was , and lay him by the heels . that this was in parliament time : and he the deponent would fain have qualified it ; but parliament , or not parliament ( says my lord ) ireland is a conquer'd nation , and the conqueror should give the law. that he the said sir pierce crosby replyed , my lord , then , i beseech you , give me leave , i am one of those that must uphold an act of state , by all lawful ways , having the honour to be a member of the government , though unworthy . what will be alledged on the other part ? they will say an act of parliament attaints and restores blood , and doth many things an act of state cannot reach to , for it is confined within the limits of the government . that my lord having not to reply to this , rose in some choller ; and told him , the deponent , of something else he conceived he the deponent had done amiss at council-board on a statute that was in debate . and so the manager concluded the article with thus much more ; the article , in the conclusion of it , charges him with scorning the government and laws . and it was desired their lorships would take notice of what is proved out of these words , and the concurrent proof yesterday . the earl of strafford begins his defence , saying , first , i must stand upon the truth of my answer , which must be good , till it be denied , so far as goes to matter of misdemeanor . i have not had time to examine witnesses , having not liberty till friday last , which i urge by way of excuse , if my answers give not full satisfaction . here is an order of the house of commons there , whereby your lordships may perceive how unlikely i am to have any thing from ireland that may work to my justification , which was read , and bears date . february , . authorising those undernamed to go aboard any ships , and seize , search , and break up all trunks , chests , and cabins aboard . to seize on all silver and gold , except small sums ; and all debts , evidences , and writings as they shall think fit , of him the said earl of strafford . this his lordship conceived to be a great violation of the peerage of the kingdom . for making good of his answer , his lordship alledged : that the council-board of ireland is a court of record , which differs much from the council-board of england ; and that they proceed there by bill , answer , examination , publication , and all the formal courses of legal proceedings . that my care to preserve the authority of the deputy and council , is not a subversion of the laws : only it directs it , and puts the execution of the law another way . that for reasons of state , it must be preserved , being the place of resort for protection and defence of the english planters , and protestant clergy . i shall produce and acknowledge the instructions made iac. and i shall read part that bounds the council-board particulary mentioned in the reply to the third charge . i desire a book may be read , a book in the hands of mr. denham , containing certain answers given by the lord chichester , to certain complaints made against that state , and written with mr. baron denham's own hand , which on debate , was resolved not to be read , being written only for a private remembrance . i shall refer to my lord ranulagh's deposition the other day , to satisfie your lordships touching the proceedings at council table . to prove the council-board to be a court of record . robert lord dillom being asked , whether before my lord strafford's time he had not known always , during his memory , the deputy and council in all causes of plantation , and the church , proceed by petition , answer , examination of witnesses , publication , and hearing , as in other courts of equity , and upon oath . he answered , that he remembers in my lord chichester's time of government , it was the practise of the board so to do : that he remembers it in my lord grandison's time ; that he had the honour to be called to the council-board under my lord faulkland's government , and knew it then . and it was in the justices time that preceded my lord strafford's government , to have petitions , examinations of witnesses , publication , a day of hearing granted , and all ordinary proceedings . being asked , whether at that board they have not been punished , who have disobeyed proclamations , and acts of state , before my lord strafford's time , and how long . he answered , that out of his observation , at council-table acts of state were made , because of the scarcity of parliaments , that they might be a supplement to acts of parliament , that he hath known before ; and when he sate at the board on contempts of these acts of state , or proclamations , which , he said , he had heard the judges say to be a kind of law of the land , for the present ; the parties were attached , brought to the board , and upon full examination of the cause , and proof of the contempt , sometimes imprisoned , sometimes fined , according to the delinquency and degree of the offence supposed to be committed . being asked of fines in cases between party and party . he answered , that he doth not remember any fine imposed in a special cause betwixt party and party . sir adam loftus being asked to the same purpose . he answered , it hath ever been , since his remembrance , the constant practise there , in causes of the church and plantation , to proceed on petition , answer , &c. and fines imposed on breakers of publick acts of state and proclamations . but he remembers not any fines for contempts , in case of particular and private interest . we shall admit it to have cognizance of matters of plantation and church , and such as are recommended from the king to the council here . but not to be a court of record . from these proofs , i infer , that the council-board there hath another constitution then here , where it is only a court of state. i shall produce the order made in my lord of corke's case , which i observe to be in the case of the church , and so within the cognizance of deputy and council . the order was read , being signed by sir paul davis , and acknowledged by my lord of corke to be sir paul davis's hand . upon reading whereof , my lord of strafford observed , that it appears to be a church-cause , that the order was just , and that the clause for the plaintiffs giving of security to answer the mean profits , which my lord of corke said was struck out of the order , and for my lord of corke's liberty to bring his action at law , only he was limited to prosecute it within a year . mr. leake was produced by my lord of strafford , and being asked what authority he hath known the council-board in ireland to exercise , both before my lord of strafford's coming thither , and since , in causes of the church and plantation , and concerning contempts to proclamations , and acts of state , and what countryman he is . he answered , that his name is leake of leake , in the county of nottingham , where , he said , his family hath continued years : that it is years since he went into ireland , and before this lords-deputies time ; and before that time he did not observe any restraint from injunctions on the council-board , till the instructions published , and they did stay them . that they proceeded by injunction , process , bill , answer , examination , and other courses , as in the chancery of england . and since the same course hath been held . and my lord of strafford hath had in the castle-chamber divers causes of law argued before him concerning the church , wherein one chadwick and divers others were convented thirty times , when he the examinant was there and heard them twenty he is sure , but he thinks thirty . but my lord of strafford did forbear to give sentence , till he heard these causes argued : that years he hath been very well versed in that kingdom , that he hath known injunctions have gone out from thence to stay proceedings in causes , where they have power of jurisdiction , that he hath known my lord chancellor loftus that was , to grant an injunction without bill , and before any complaint depended before him , and that he himself had the injunction granted . being asked about the time of his going into ireland . he said he went betwixt . and . whence observe , that the witness hath made an observation of the instructions five years before he came into ireland . being asked some other questions touching the occasion of his going into ireland , and how he came to take notice of the proceedings there . he answered , he hath been there at several times , to pursue some tenants of his that fled into ireland ; and by reason of the suits and petitions he prosecuted in his own right , he had occasion to enquire after proceedings there , having been there for the most part of years . to the statute of h. . which the commons have pressed as a rule for the re●ing of causes to their proper courts , and to annihilate all these proceedings before the deputy and council ; and before the deputy alone in his particular jurisdiction , in the nature of a court of requests in england . i reserve my self to have my council give satisfaction therein : only desire your lordships to observe the last clause , saving the king's prerogative . these proceedings are not against magna charta , they being according to the laws and customs of the land ; though it be not the custom of england . and if he hath been an innovator , it hath been to conform ireland by all ways he could in religion and laws , to the better and more excellent pattern of england . to the objection made against mr. gwyn , he is altogether unknown to me , only was recommended to me , and here is a certificate that gwyn is master of arts ; but that was not read , nor insisted on . to the matter of words charged upon him . he answered , that words without fact can be no matter of treason , though of a higher nature then these . that words are to be charged within a limited time . e. . ca. . whereby it is provided , that none shall be impeached concerning treason for words only , if the party , being within the realm , be not accused within thirty days : if out of the realm , within six months , &c. which proviso his lordship read , and reserved to his council farther to apply it . for the words spoken to my lord of corke , that neither law nor lawyers should dispute my orders . i conceive i might justifie the speaking of them , if the orders , and acts of state be justly warrantable , and honourably made . yet it is improbable i should speak the words , when the order refers it self to law. if they were spoken , they are at the highest indiscreet and foolish ; and it is a heavy thing to punish me for not being wiser than god almighty hath made me . for the last words , that i would make the said earl and all ireland know , that so long as i had government there , an act of state made , or to be made , should be as binding as an act of parliament . i observe my lord of corke's quick memory , that could swear them roundly , without missing a letter or sillable as they are laid in the charge . that these words are only in the charge , and so only to be answered to . and for answer , i say , that in case of an act done , they may be brought collaterally , as an inducement , to prove the intention . but the act must be proved , before they can touch me as of treason . my lord of corke is a single witness , and by a proviso , e. ca. . no person , after the first of february then following , is to be arraigned , &c. of treason , &c. for any words to be spoken after the said first of february , unless the offendor be accused by two sufficient witnesses , or should , without violence , confess them . to the words spoken of by the other witnesses being the same in effect , i am not to answer , being extrajudicially proved , and spoken in other places and times than i am charged withall . yet i think they might be fairly interpreted : for if an act of state be not made against an act of parliament , or a fundamental law of the land , but consistent with it , and made by way of provision for remedying some present mischief in the common-wealth , till the parliament may provide redress for it . they are as binding during the time they are in force , as an act of parliament ( though i confess , the comparison is not good ) because they be made according to law and justice ; according to the fundamental laws of the land , wherein the prerogative of the crown hath a part , as well as the property of the subject : for if the propriety of the subject , as it is , ( and god forbid but it should continue ) be the second , undoubtedly the prerogative of the crown is the first table of that fundamental law , and hath something more imprinted upon it : for if it hath a divinity imprinted upon it , it is god's annointed ; it is he that gives the powers . and kings are as gods on earth , higher prerogatives than can be said , or found to be spoken of the propriety or liberty of the subject ; and yet they go on hand in hand , and long may they do so , long may they go in that agreement and harmony , which they should have done hitherto , and i trust shall be to the last , not rising one above another in any kind , but kept in their own wonted channels . for if they rise above these heights , the one or the other , they tear the banks , and overflow the fair meads equally on one side and other . and therefore i do , and did allow , and ever shall , for my part , desire they may be kept at that agreement and perfect harmony one with another , that they may each watch for , and not any way watch over the other . and therefore this being a care of the prerogative , as long as it goes not against the common law of the land , it is the law of the land , and binds , as long as it transgresses not the fundamental law of the land , being made provisionally for preventing of a temporary mischief , before an act of parliament can give a remedy . and this condition must be implyed , that it must be binding , provided it be according to the law of the land. i instance in that exception that king iames would take , when a man saies he will do a thing as far as he may with conscience and honour ; because in persons of conscience and honour , those words are always implied . that the wisdom of our ancestors hath prevented this mischief ; that for a mis-word , a peer of england should lose his priviledge , being as great as any subjects that live under a king , that is not a free prince of the empire . and the preamble of a statute in queen elizabeths time , the very bent whereof is to take away the dawning of words , without any further act ; which preamble was read to their lordships . and so i conclude , the words were unwisely spoken , because they may be brought to a hard sense , but not criminal , for none of them swear any thing done in breach of the law. i except against my lord kilmallock's swearing sir george ratcliffe to be my eccho , as if he knew my thoughts ; and against mr. hoy , as a party concerned in interest , though not in name , in a suit that is or will be brought against me before your lordships come to the end of the charge . i confess mr. waldron's testimony makes me stagger , being the only person could make me believe i said the words . i except against sir pierce crosbies testimony , having been formerly sentenced in star-chamber , and i know what sir pierce crosby swore there , and that i never communed with him so far , as to have such a discourse , as is mentioned , in all my life . to the suit in the castle-chamber against the earl of corke , on pretence of breaking an order of council-table . i conceive it had relation to an order made in king iames his time , . march , iac. which i desire may be read , ( being now produced ) as also the information there exhibited , that so i may justifie my answer in that point of it ; that the suit was not upon that act alone , but for other matters also ; but that was admitted by the committee . and so the reading of them was waved . to that point of mr. waldron's testimony , touching the offering of a lease to the person concerned , rendring the half value : i conceive this circumstance qualifies the words , it being according to law. to demonstrate which , the statue was read . that no lease shall be granted , upon which less is reserved to the lessor ( during years ) then the moiety of the lands value . and so his lordship concluded his defence , and the manager made reply in substance as followeth . that this article proves my lord of strafford's intention to subvert the laws . that the long time spent in maintaining the jurisdiction of the council-board , is the least part of the article . that though these words singly , be admitted not to be treason , yet several words and actions must prove the general charge , of his endeavouring to subvert the laws . to the several provisoes in that act of parliament , mentioned by my lord of strafford , concerning words , we observe , that the words charged are only matter of evidence , to his general intention , of subverting the laws . and whereas he says they are not charged in time , the commons bring this as done long ago , and continuing to this day , if he were not prevented ; so they take him flagrante crimine . to the practise of the council-table before his time , his witnesses have proved their proceedings in cases of the church and plantations . but in other cases we deny it , for it is contrary to law. that admitting the extent given by the instructions to church-causes ( though the proclamation hath no such exception . ) yet it comes not to the case of my lord of cork , who claimed the thing in question as a lay-impropriation ; derived to the crown , by the statute of dissolution . that my lord of strafford makes this government arbitrary , in threatening the earl of cork , to lay him by the heels , if he went to law , whereas the order gave him liberty . that the original order in my lord of corke's cause was drawn , with these words put out , concerning gwyn's giving security , and that justifies my lord of cork's testimony . that notwithstanding my lord of strafford's justification of his words , that neither law nor lawyers should question his orders . this is to assume an arbitrary power ; for if his orders be legal , the law must justifie them , if not , question them . that the words , of making an act of state equal to an act of parliament , are proved by my lord of corke ; and those spoken are a confirmation of those before , and expresly within the article . the latter point thereof recites , that he spake the words at other times . this altogether justifie my lord of corke's testimony , though a single witness , and prove that my lord of strafford hath made it a habit to speak such words . that they have one witness more , and that is my lord of strafford himself , who says , he never spake any thing but truth ; and said , that he would make an act of state equal to an act of parliament . we desire , that for the taking off the aspersion cast on sir pierce crosby , my lord of castlehaven may be examined , touching the words alledged to be spoken in his presence . the earl of castlehaven being sworn and examined touching the said words , answered , that it is a business past long ago ; and but a table-discourse , and he took not much notice of the circumstances : but as he remembers , there fell a difference between my lord of strafford , and sir pierce crosby , within three or four months after my lords coming over ; and that as well as he can remember , my lord of strafford did say , that an act of state was equal to an act of parliament ; but he remembers not the occasion . that the justice of the order in my lord of corke's cause , is not material , or whether within the jurisdiction of the council-table , the charge being , that upon such an order made , my lord of strafford threatned the earl of corke for suing at law. that the justification brought by my lord of strafford , is an aggravation , restraining liberty to sue at law , to a year , else to be concluded for ever . whereas my lord of strafford says , he hath spoken unwisely , but done nothing ; sure he that threatens doth something ; and his actions will appear in the next articles . for the priviledge of peerage , it were to be wished he had known , or remembred it sooner , in my lord mountnorris his case . that though he says , acts of state are to be allowed for temporary provision , till an act of parliament , yet when things are propounded , and rejected in parliament , shall he supply it by an act of state. we desire to examine one witness more . the earl of strafford excepting against it , as not regular , the lords adjourned to their house , to take consideration of it . and a little after , returning , the lord steward declared their lordships resolution , that the witness might be examined ; the matter in question , arising from what was offered from the earl of straffords defence . roger lotts sworn , and examined , what words my lord of strafford gave out , when an act for powder would not pass in the commons house ; and what act of state was thereupon made . he answered , that he had the honour to be one of the members of that parliament that began . and ended april . that at the close of that parliament , my lord of strafford then lord deputy , told the house of commons , then sent for up , that they had voted against some bills in the lower house , amongst the rest , that of gun-powder ; where it was made felony for any man to buy , or have any , unless he got a license first for it : that my lord afterwards told them , that notwithstanding they had voted against it , yet he would make that , and some other bills they had voted against , acts of state , that should be as good ; and said , he heard it was done afterwards , but he doth not know that . this witness is something of justification of my lord of corke's testimony ; against which , my lord of strafford hath made some exception . and the lord digby added something for the justification of my lord of killmallocks testimony ; against which , my lord of strafford had likewise excepted . and so the reply was concluded . to the deposition of roger lotts , my lord of strafford answered , i had received direction concerning powder ; it being not conceived fit , for reasons of state , to buy , and have powder at pleasure , or that that commodity should be so frequently brought into the kingdom , and committed to unsafe hands ; so in that point , i did but what i was commanded out of many reasons ; which i desire i may forbear to express , it not conducing to my acquittal or condemnation . and so the lords adjourned . the sixth day . saturday , march . . the fifth article . the charge . that according to such his declarations and spéeches , the said earl of strafford did use and exercise a power above , and against , and to the subversion of the said fundamental laws , and established government of the said realm of ireland , extending such his power , to the goods , freé-holds , inheritances , liberties , and lives of his majesties subjects of the said realm ; and namely , the said earl of strafford , the twelfth day of december , anno domini . in the time of full peace , did in the said realm of ireland , give , and procure to be given , against the lord mountnorris ( then , and yet a peér of the said realm of ireland , and then uice-treasurer , and receiver-general of the realm of ireland , and treasurer at war , and one of the principal secretaries of state , and kéeper of the privy signet of the said kingdom ) a sentence of death by a council of war , called together by the said earl of strafford , without any warrant , or authority of law , or offence deserving any such punishment . and he the said earl , did also at dublin , within the said realm of ireland , in the month of march , in the fourtéenth year of his majesties reign , without any legal or due procéedings , or trial , give , and cause to be given , a sentence of death against one other of his majesties subjects , whose name is yet unknown ; and caused him to be put to death in execution of the same sentence . the manager began to open this article , shewing , that though my lord of strafford insisted on it , that whatever his words were , his actions were not against law. this article comes properly to reply to that answer , it charging him with exercising of a tyrannical power over the person of a peer of that realm . and first , it was desired that the sentence of death against my lord mountnorris , might be read , which was attested on oath , to be that which was delivered by mr. secretary windebanck , upon the commons humble suit to his majesty , for his leave , to have a copy thereof , that the papers concerning my lord mountnorris , might be delivered into the house , occasioned upon my lord mountnorris his petition to the house in that behalf . the sentence was read . reciting first , his majesties letter , iuly . then last , wherein notice is taken of the respect due to the deputy and general of his majesties army ; and of the carriage of my lord mountnorris , holding a captains place in the army ; in uttering speeches , inciting a revenge on the earl of strafford , lord deputy , and lord general ; and command thereby given , on receipt thereof , to call a councel of war ; and that the lord mountnorris should undergo such censure , as the said councel of war should impose , for the lord deputies full reparation . secondly , that a councel of war was accordingly called ; the words are also set forth , and the occasion , as followeth , that within three or or four days after the lord deputy had dissolved the parliament , his lordship sitting in the presence chamber , one of his servants , in moving a stool , happened to hurt the lord deputies foot , then indisposed , through an accession of the gout , which being spoken of at the lord chancellors table , one said to the lord mountnorris , being there present , it was your lordships kinsman , who is one of the lord deputies gentlemen ushers , that did it . whereupon , the lord mountnorris publickly , and in a scornful and contemptuous manner , answered , perhaps it was done in revenge of that publick affront that my lord deputy did me formerly . but i have a brother that would not have taken such a revenge . thirdly , the sentence likewise sets forth , that the lord mountnorris would not answer the said charge negatively or affirmatively , though required by the councel of war. fourthly , that thereupon , the witnesses , for proof thereof , were called , viz. viscount moore , and sir robert loftus , who upon oath deposed the same words , to be so then , and there spoken ; and the lord mountnorris at last , submitted himself to the councel , protesting , that whatsoever interpretation might be put upon his words , he intended no hurt to the person of his said lordship ; and affirmed , that he would dye before he would give the deputy and general occasion to give him such a rebuke . fifthly , that for the nature of the offence , it was conceived to contain a calumny to the lord deputy and general , insinuating the affront pretended , in these words of my lord mountnorris's , to be given to the said kinsman , and an incitement to revenge ; and that if the words had been spoken of the person of the king , it had amounted to high treason ; which by some rules of proportion , might be applyed to his deputy . sixthly , that the words were spoken when the lord deputy had the honour to be apparelled with his own robes of majesty and soveraignty ; when part of the army was in motion , and the lord deputy and general present . seventhly , that the words were adjudged an apparent breach of the st article of the printed orders , and laws for war , dated the th of march , . whereby it is ordered , that no man shall give any disgraceful words of any person in the army , upon pain of imprisonment , publick disarming , &c. and also of the th article , that no man-shall offer violence or contempt to his commander , or do any act , or speak any words , to breed mutiny in the army , or impeach the obeying of the principal officer , upon pain of death . eighthly , that according to the said articles , the counsel do unanimously , with one joynt consent , ( not one of us of another opinion ) adjudge the said lord mountnorris , for his high and great offence , to be imprisoned , to stand from henceforth deprived of all his places , and entertainments due , which he holds in the army . to be disarmed , to be banished the army , and disabled from ever bearing office. and lastly , to be shot to death , or lose his head at the pleasure of the general . given at his majesties castle at dublin , december . . valentia cromwell . this sentence of death against a peer , was pronounced by martial law , against the fundamental rules of law , without trial , answer , or hearing ; that though my lord of strafford owns it not , yet he made relation of the injury to his majesty : his majesty did justly direct , that my lord of strafford should have just reparation . that my lord of strafford produceth the witnesses , refused to let my lord mountnorris answer , though he demanded the benefit of the law ; owns it in his own person , for he said , ( treading on our foot ) and an injury done to us . and whereas some would have mitigated it , and found him guilty of the first article , he himself pronounceth it , both or none . the whole proceeding was but half an hour ; no notice was given before-hand , and my lord mountnorris checked , for desiring to cross-examine . my lord mountnorris produced as a witness ; some exceptions were taken against him by my lord of strafford , but were over-ruled . his lordship being sworn , and being directed to declare the whole truth in this business , answered as followeth : upon the th of december , . i was warned by a pursevant , late at evening , to attend my lord deputy in the council-chamber , at a council of war next morning , by eight of the clock . coming thither accordingly , i found many of the council , and captains of the army ; and having conferred with several of the chief of them , and with my lord valentia cromwell , and others , they said , they knew not for what that council of war was summoned ; after a whiles stay , my lord deputy came into the room , and sat down at the boards end , and commanded the rest to sit down ; where my self , that had the honour to be his majesties vice-treasurer , by his grace and goodness , sate in my place : after all were set , my lord deputy exprest , he had called that court to do himself right and reparation against my lord mountnorris . at those words , i rose up from my place , and humbly presented my self at the boards end , as the manner is , near his lordship ; who making some speech , about words uttered by me shortly after the preceding parliament , which was april . . and the words spoken within three or four days after , took a paper in his hand , and out of that , read the words wherewith he charged me ; to the effect , i conceive , as they are mentioned in the sentence . after his lordship had read them , he demanded of me , whether i would confess them , or deny them . i did humbly desire , i might have the charge in writing , that i might answer it by advice of learned counsel , the words being charged to be spoken long before , and it was hard to answer them suddenly . his lordship answered , that was not the course of a martial court , i must answer directly . i did several times desire i might have the charge in writing ; and my lord of strafford answered in the same kind , that i must answer , whether i would confess , or deny them . two or three of the counsel of war spoke something also to that purpose ; as i remember , the lord cromwell for one , and sir ch. coote , and sir iohn burlacy ; who intimated , that the manner was , i must confess them , or deny them . standing a while silent , my lord deputy said , he thought they must proceed against me as a mute ; for he will not answer , and therefore they must take them for granted . i said over again what i had said before , and desired i might have my charge in writing ; and that i might have advice of counsel , that i might be used as a peer of the realm , and an officer of the crown ; and still his lordship denied , that must not be , it was not the order of a martial court. i replyed , and told the lord deputy , i had seen it otherwise in a martial court in england , between my lord reas and ramzie , where the cause was debated by the advocates in writing . the lord deputy told me again , that must not be , i must answer directly ; and hereupon , the lord deputy caused his majesties letter , dated the last of iuly , to be read ; and when that was read , required me to make answer : i confess , i was amazed at hearing of this letter , and was much grieved ; and with humility and grief , expressed on my knees what sorrow it had wrought on me ; and that i had never willingly offended his majesty , or his laws : and declared , that i had been mis-represented to his majesty , and those letters were got by mis-information ; and humbly desired a copy of those letters , and the charge , that i might answer by writing ; and that his majesty might know my answer before further proceedings . his lordship upon that , rebuked me with worse language than was fit to be used to a meaner man , and not a peer , that desired but law and justice . the lord deputy told me , i was not mis-represented to his majesty ; for himself had represented me , and that matter , to his majesty ; and he did not use to mis-represent any thing : and then directly required me , whether i would confess them , or deny them . if not , he would prove them on oath ; and thereupon my lord deputy called for my lord moore , sitting at board with him , and required him to give his testimony ; who had an oath given him by the lord deputies command , by the clerk of the council ; and referred himself to what he and sir robert loftus had long before put under their hands : thereupon the lord deputy gave that paper to the clerk of the council to read ; which was the paper the lord deputy held in his hand , and out of which he had read the charge : and that being shewed to my lord moore , he said , to his best remembrance those were the words spoken . sir robert loftus was also called in , and he being required to give his testimony , referred himself to that which he and my lord moore had put under their hands ; and being shewed him , with his hand to it , he affirmed it . then my lord deputy asked me , what i could now say , since the words were proved to my face : i humbly told his lordship , and made solemn protestation , and offered to take my oath , that i did never speak the words , as i was able to prove by several witnesses ; and desired , that the lord chancellor ( at whose table they were spoken ) and judge martial of the kingdom , then in town , might be summoned to give his testimony for truth , and sir adam loftus his son , and near twenty others ; and desired they might be examined in the cause ; and that i was well able to prove , that the words charged to be spoken by me , were not spoken by me , but by others , as to that part that concerns the affront ; but his lordship refused me to have any examined . being asked , whether all the army was then on the march , as my lord of strafford had said in his answer . he answered , there was at that time three , or four , or five companies , i am not able to say how many . when my witnesses were refused , and i had made my protestation , that i had not spoken them , and was ready to prove it , ( my lord deputy answered , that he knew my oathes and protestations well enough ) i took exception to the testimony of the lord moore , and sir robert loftus , as i might in a legal way . but my lord deputy rebuked me , and spoke in commendation of them ; and bid my lord moore sit down now , and be one of my judges : and thereupon commanded me to withdraw , which i did , and went out into a gallery by , where i stayed about the space of half an hour , i think not more , i am sure not an hour ; and was then called in , and at the beginning , was required to kneel as a delinquent ; which i conceived i was not , having endeavoured always to shew my self a faithful officer . then my lord deputy commanded sir charles coote to pronounce the sentence , as provost martial of connaught ; which he did briefly , in effect as in the sentence : and my lord deputy took occasion to make a speech , and told me invectively enough , ( amongst other things ) there remained no more now , if he pleased , but to cause the provost martial to do execution . but withall added , that for matter of life , he would supplicate his majesty . and i think he said , he would rather lose his hand , than i should lose my head ; which i took to be the highest scorn , to compare his the lord deputies hand , with my head : i said , i never did , and hoped i never should , endanger my head by offending his majesties laws . i was hereupon commanded to be taken to prison , by the constable of the castle , who took me thence away ; what past in the time of my absence , i knew not ; but the articles i was charged with breach of , were not declared , nor i urged to answer ; if i had , i could have answered , i knew of no such articles , nor ever saw them , till iune . published by his own authority ; and made in time of war : and though made for regulating of the army , yet were never put in practice ; and on a conference with some of the council of war , i was informed , they differed in opinion amongst themselves ; and some moved , both the articles might not be pressed ; and his lordship answered , he would have both or none . being asked on my lord of straffords motion , how long after the sentence given , he remained a prisoner in the castle : i was committed the th , and remained until the th , and was not released by any favour of my lord deputy , but on a certificate of the physitians ; and that not admitted but upon oath , that i was in peril of my life ; and a petition drawn by them that had more care of my health than my self , being so afflicted in body and mind , with the high injustice and oppression i had , that i was extreamly ill ; and was then remitted on security , given by the chief justice in l. bond , to be a prisoner . being asked on the committees behalf , whether he was not taken to prison again ; and how long he continued in prison for this cause . i continued at my house , and was very ill ; and after that several times , was called to the council-table by my lord deputy ; and an information exhibited in the star-chamber for pretended crimes , which i shall ever desire to answer in any publick legal judicature , rather than live . and i was imprisoned again the th of april ; being sent for to my house , and found with my counsel about me , preparing my answer in the best manner i could ; and the advice was , i should demurr to that information , because i stood under the sentence of death : i was carried by the constable to the castle , and brought before my lord deputy ; and the said th of april . was committed close prisoner ; and there continued till the second of may : and i knew no other cause , but that i had ( as he said ) neglected the kings grace ; and had sent my wife into england , and transgressed a proclamation . to which i answered , i had not transgressed it ; that my wife was full of grief at my calamities : and i had sent her to save my life . then my lord deputy told me , that i had refused the kings grace offered me , in not accepting his pardon ; which i thought not legal for me to take : and thereupon committed me . being asked on the lord lieutenants motion , whether the council were not present ; he answered , some of the council were present ; but my lord committed me , the council not speaking a word . being asked again about the time of his commitment ; i was first committed the th of december , let go the th to my house ; committed again the th of april , put out the second of may : i was then in great extremity , and admitted to my house again ; where i lay in a long continuing sickness , and under the hands of physitians : and the th of ianuary afterwards , because i sued not out the pardon , was imprisoned again , and there continued till march . the lord dillom was called , and after some exception taken by my lord of strafford , to the examining of him , because he might speak things that amount to an accusation of himself , the same was over-ruled ; the committee for the commons declaring , that they would make no use against him , of any thing he should speak concerning himself . his lordship was thereupon sworn , and asked what my lord of straffords carriage was at the said sentence , not accusing himself : he answered , that he was present at the council , on summons to be there ; and the council being set , as a council of war , my lord of strafford did shew what they were called for ; and did set forth some injuries he conceived done him by my lord mountnorris . upon that my lord mountnorris was spoken to , and much interlocution there was , before he would say he did speak the words , or deny them ; and after much debate to and fro , the witnesses were called in , my lord moore , and sir robert loftus ; and they did testifie the words in the charge , upon oath ; much debate there was ; to call every particular to remembrance he cannot at this present , but as near as he can he will , that was before my lord mountnorris withdrew ; and after his withdrawing , and some speeches to the council of war , they came to voting ; and in the voting , there was never a man , to his remembrance , in giving his vote on both articles , but did profess he gave it in a confidence , that there should be mercy extended to my lord mountnorris ; and with an intercession , that he might find mercy from his majesty : and when the votes were all past , my lord of strafford stretched forth his right arm , and protested he had rather have his arm cut off , or lose his right arm , than my lord mountnorris should lose a hair of his head , or a drop of his blood , for that cause ; and that he would write to his majesty , to supplicate him for mercy . being asked on the committees motion , whether my lord of strafford did not publish , he had acquainted his majesty with it , and they were called together to give reparation of some injuries done to himself . he answered , my lord made a long speech at that time , setting forth the charge , and making mention of his majesties letter , and his majesties letter was read ; and he did understand by my lord deputy , it was to give reparation ; but the particular words , on his oath he doth not remember . being asked , whether ( some of the council moving they might proceed on the article that did not extend to life ) my lord of strafford did not reply , nay both . he answered , that he remembers very well it was proposed to the council of war , that they were to judge on both articles . and being asked by whom : he said , he will ingeniously answer , he believes my lord of strafford did ; but specially to say , who , or in what manner , he cannot . being asked , whether the evidence given against my lord mountnorris , was not written in a paper , drawn out by my lord of strafford ; and that the witnesses referred to that wholly : he answered , he did see a piece of paper in my lord of straffords hand ; and believes it was some note for his remembrance , what it was , he knows not ; and when the witnesses were brought in , there was a paper to which they had set their hands of the words spoken . being asked other questions successively , touching the pressing of the councels proceedings on the article only , that touched not death ; and whether my lord of strafford wished them to proceed on both : he answered , he remembers it not so prest on that occasion ; nor doth he remember whether such a provision was made , that the proceedings should be on the article that touched not life . being asked , whether any beside my lord of strafford moved , they might proceed on both articles . he answered , he remembers in the debate , the manner of proceeding was spoken of ; and to his best remembrance , by the discipline and rule of the army , it was said , he was to be proceeded against on both . being asked on my lord of straffords motion , whether the earl of strafford did not in plain and direct terms say , he would not be a judge in that cause , nor give a vote by any means : he answered , he remembers he gave no vote , and being more than five years since , the special words he doth not remember ; but in general , after he had set forth the injuries done to himself , he profest , he would give no vote , but left it to the council . being asked on the lord of straffords motion , whether he did not desire the council of war , but to proceed as to any other officer in the army ; and what sentence they should give , he would not take ill . he answered , when my lord mountnorris was withdrawn he spake not a word , but did when he came in again : he doth not remember the words . being asked whether the army was not a great part of it in dublin , and in motion , and daily exercised , when the words were spoken by my lord mountnorris . he answered , he cannot tell precisely whether the most part was there ; but there was a part of the army there , and they did exercise . being asked on the motion of the committee , whether the sentence he approved so well of , he thanked them for it . he answered , that he doth not remember any special words ; but he thinks , in civility he would do it . being further asked , whether , after my lord mountnorris was withdrawn , my lord of strafford did not continue in his place , and sit at the table end amongst the council . he answered , i do really believe he did so . the lord strafford confessed he did , when the votes were delivered ; but desired the lord dillom might be asked , whether he sate only as a party , not as a judge ; and sate bare through the whole proceeding of the cause . he answered , he doth not remember it particularly , whether he sate bare all the while ; for it is long ago , and he did not heed it . the lord ranulagh being asked , whether he was present at the lord mountnorris his sentence ; and whether my lord strafford declared , they were called together to give satisfaction for injuries done him by my lord mountnorris . he answered , that in this particular my lord of strafford was nobly pleased to mention his tenderness of my lord dillom , least he should be his own accuser , he was pleased to mention something the other day , wherein he had tenderness of him ; that he shall be as little fearful to speak the truth in this cause , as in that , having been required by their lordships ; as presuming he hath done nothing but what he may justifie ; that for that particular question , he hath been heretofore examined in some particulars of it ; and shall now , with the best of his memory repeat , and offer to their lordships , according to his weakness , every passage in it . that he was summoned to appear in the council-chamber ; and , as he takes it , it was december . . that being there , my lord sate in a council of war , and he ( amongst others ) having the honour to wait on him , my lord mountnorris's name being mentioned after he was set at the board , arose , and stood as near my lord deputies person , as was fit for him , towards the upper end of the table : and there stood charged with several dis-respectful words spoken by him ; and the words mentioned in the censure that was read , were the words ; that he was charged to have spoken those words in breach of certain articles , by which the army of ireland was governed , the th and the st , that there was much interlocution from my lord deputy to my lord mountnorris , and returned from my lord mountnorris to my lord ; the substance was , that he was ready to give his charge , that he had violated those articles , that my lord mountnorris desired time to answer by counsel ; and that he might have his charge in writing . that being not readily granted , he insisted on it , that he might have time to prepare his answer , but was told , it was contrary to the form of that proceeding ; but whether that objection of the form , came from my lord himself , or from some other member of the board that i heard before named , i cannot possibly say . but thus stands the state of it , my lord mountnorris neither confessing nor denying the charge , my lord deputy replyed , sir , if you do neither confess nor deny the charge , how shall we proceed ? the deputy called on the lord moore , and said , what shall we say to this business ? my lord , saith the lord moore , what i can say , is under my hand ; that a little time after , a letter was read from the king , whereby his majesty was pleased to give direction to proceed in a martial court , for reparation and honour of the lord deputy , on the complaint and information given to the king. that my lord mountnorris instantly fell on his knees , expressing a great deal of grief and sorrow , and in truth passion , and had not much to say for himself ; and soon after , was bid to withdraw ; and being withdrawn , my lord deputy said , that as he had complained to the king , so he would expect that honour from the board , that his cause should be taken into consideration , and such redress given as was fit ; he demanded justice according to the articles insisted on : and having declared it , there was a silence amongst us for some time ; that he was the first that brake that silence ; and in as humble manner and terms as he could light upon , did humbly desire my lord deputy to give him leave , to ask whether he would give leave to wave either of those articles ; but my lord said , he would demand justice on both . that this being so , there was some interlocution of discourse among the council , and in truth he thinks , that he was one of the first that said , that these articles , and the words , cannot bear so good a construction , but that there may be some danger of a breach upon these articles . being asked whether the words were not represented to the council of war in a paper written , and the testimony given in pursuance of that paper . he answered , that as he remembers , my lord moore having made a return to my lord deputy , my lord , what i can say , your lordship hath under my hand ; he thinks my lord deputy said , my lord , if you deny it , i have it under your hand to shew . and thereupon ( as he remembers ) the clerk of the council standing by , had direction to draw up some interrogatories , which my lord moore did acknowledge ; and sir robert loftus too did affirm , that they were spoken by my lord mountnorris , as much as was mentioned in the paper . being asked how many companies of the army were then in town ; how many in a company ; and whether they were exercised in a more than ordinary training ; and how many companies the army consists of : he answered , that he thinks the horse-troops were , or at the most ; some my lords own . the foot-companies were . and of those companies there were ( he takes it ) two horse-troops , besides my lord 's own troop , and four foot-companies ; they were called up to guard and attend our occasions in parliament , and they did their duties as souldiers every day , as indeed my lord of strafford was careful of well exercising the army as any general he ever saw ; and there are forty companies of the old standing army . being asked on my lord of straffords motion , whether my lord of strafford did not declare he would not give judgment in the cause , but appeal to them as a suitor for reparation . he answered , that my lord of strafford held them to the point of the articles , demanding justice on the articles ; that he said sometimes , he would depend on our judgment in it , and yet he would hold us to the point of the articles . and further , that if there were not a necessity of his being there , he would have withdrawn too . but my lord would not give the council a latitude to proceed according to the king's letter for reparation , but he held them to the point of the articles . being asked on my lord of strafford's motion , whether he did not tell my lord mountnorris , when he went out of the room , that he would not speak a word till he came into the room again , and whether he did not do it accordingly ; and whether he sate bare all the while as a party , and not as a judge . in answer , he desired leave to offer to their lordships , that he acquainted their lordships before ; that as soon as my lord mountnorris was withdrawn , my lord did declare what he the lord renula had formerly said . but after the council fell into debate of it , he spake not a word , nor gave any interruption . and he cannot positively say , that he sate bare all the while . being asked , whether this was not in the time of full peace , and whether any rebels or enemies were in the kingdom . he answered , certainly it was a time of very full and happy peace . to prove , that in discourse concerning this sentence , my lord said afterwards , he would not lose the honour or share of it . the earl of cork being asked to that purpose . answered , that all he can remember is , that the sentence was publickly read in the star-chamber , and my lord said , he would not lose his share in the honour of it , but he cannot remember the day . lord viscount dillon asked to that purpose . answered , that he happened to be in the star-chamber that day , by my lord of strafford's command , and carried the sword that day . that the reading of the sentence he remembers not , but the words he heard , that the sentence given against my lord mountnorris , by the council of war , was a noble and just sentence , and for his part he would not lose his share of the honour of it . the commons proceeded to that part of the charge , which concerns the execution of another man by martial law. william castigatt sworn , being asked several questions touching that part particularly , whether he knew one executed by martial law , and by whom ? &c. he answered , yes , his name was thomas denewitt , and it was last summer was two years , that he was on the green , when he was hanged , and they were born in the same town : he said , he knew not what martial law is , but he was hanged on one of the bows of a growing tree , and he takes it my lord of strafford was present ; he added , that all the souldiers were there , and the company ; but knows not whether he was condemned by a jury or no. and he heard that he was hanged for a quarter of beef , that he , and some of the company took away . lord viscount dillon being asked , if he knew of the execution of the said person , whether he was condemned by martial law , and whether he was a suitor to my lady strafford , and could not prevail . he answered , he did not know that man by name that was hanged , but it was by martial law. and he , and another noble lord that sits here , were suitors for him to my lady , and she told them , she did endeavour , but could not prevail for a pardon . that it was a little before the men went to carlisle , out of ireland . that he was not present at the trial , but saw him hanged on the green at dublin on a tree , and knows not his name ; and he conceives the provost-marshal , or the provost-marshal's son did execution , for they were there both of them . that the cause was double , as he heard , for which he was condemned ; for flying from his colours , and for stealing some beef . patrick gough sworn , and asked to the same purpose as before . he answered , that he remembers about the time of the souldiers sending to carlisle , and the army in dublin , this man was executed by the provost-marshal's son , and on a tree , and that time two other souldiers were whipt . the voice of the report was , he was hanged for a quarter of beef , and running away from his colours . lord renula asked what answer was given , when a motion was made that this man should be tried at law. he answered , that he was warned to come to a marshalls court , and the messenger came so late , that he came not timely enough to give his vote in the court. that he came when the matter was fully heard , and having done his duty to the lord-deputy , sate down behind the chair . that there were some controverted opinions concerning the condemnation of the man. the lord-deputy was pleased to desire his opinion , and stated the evidence to him , as it appeared before the court , which , to his remembrance , stood thus ; the party was accused to have stollen some beef ; and charged to have run from his colours , which was the reason of the parties being called thither , as he conceived . and it was thus , coming to his lieutenant to demand his pay ( if he be not mistaken , and if he be , he should be glad to be certified by any , ) the officer said , he had it not ; then he desired to be discharged , then go and be hanged , said the officer ; and thereupon left his colours , yet left his musket with his corporal . that for the beef , it seems the fact was clear , that this was when a regiment of foot was to be transmitted to carlisle , and were at dublin attending their transportation hence . that he the said lord renula was desired to inform himself of the particular charged upon his going from his colours . the thing in his excuse was , the officer's bidding him go and be hanged , and leaving his musket : that therefore he , the lord renula , did the rather advise he should be tried by the law , than in that court : that he doth not conceive the sentence was made certain before he came in , and if he be not mistaken , there is a noble peer of this house sate in that council , and he is sure , that he ( the said peer ) offered reasons why he should not die for that fact , for he heard him argue it so , and that is my lord conway . lord conway was sworn , and asked his knowledge of this . he answered , that he hath been asked of this heretofore , and therefore is something more in his memory than otherwise it would have been , for he had almost forgot it , and it is very imperfectly in memory . he remembers that he was at a council of war in dublin , that there was a man condemned to be hanged , and that it was for such a matter as their lordships had heard spoken , more of it he doth not remember . and being further asked , whether any proposition was made to my lord of strafford , to have the man referred to a legal trial , or the execution deferred . he answered , he remembers it not . and so they closed the article , observing it to be fully proved in both parts of it , and that it makes good the general article , of exercising a tyrannical government over his majesties subjects . the earl of strafford began his defence . i humbly conceive my answer must be allowed me , if i prove clear of treason , having been debarred of witnesses . my answer saith , that the deputies have always exercised martial law in time of the armies march , and divers articles for regulating the army printed , according to which divers have been put to death in peace as well as war. that the lord mountnorris , for breach of two of those articles , was proceeded against by in number , and sentence of death pronounced , wherein i was no judge ; and i obtained from his majesty that no personal hurt befel him , but a few days imprisonment . if i had been questioned on my life for murder or felony , i might in extremity have feared ( perhaps ) but certainly this can by no law be made treason , for which only i must answer , being a crime of another nature . i trust this will appear no crime , or such a one as , i hope , his majesty will grant me a pardon for , as he hath done to others . i desire to excuse a mistake in my answer , about the whole armies being at dublin , and i desire in my answer to have liberty to rectifie a mistake . i humbly desire the commission may be read under the broad-seal , whereby i am made general of the army , and power derived to exercise marshal-law , which was read , and this limitation is in it as to the exercise of marshal-law , si opus fuerit . and this i observe is according to the practise of all the world in cases of this nature . that the army in ireland is a standing army , in the king's pay , and and hath , and always had marshalls , serjeants , majors , generals , provost-marshalls , and other officers . we admit that there is an army in ireland that is in pay , and distributed in the country , and hath officers belonging to it . the generals there have from time to time set forth orders in print , for the government of the army , and the officers of it , particularly my lord wilmott , whose orders are here to be read . my lord wilmott being examined , confest there were orders made for regulating the army , that he had the honour to be general four years , and that the articles offered by my lord of strafford , and by him viewed , are attested under his hand , for which he took pattern from my lord faulkland , my lord grandison , and my lord chichester , and he did it by the power he had the honour to hold under his majesty as general : that yet he used them so sparingly , that neither in that time , nor in the government of munster ( in which he had as large authority as ever any man had ) he never did condemn a man to death in peaceable times , and that the authority hath been good . that martial-law is so frequent and ordinary in ireland , that it is not to be denied , and so little offensive there , that the common law takes no exception at it . that he hath lived to see three or four parliaments there , and they never complained of it . and to govern an army without martial-law , is impossible , for occasions , in an army , rise on a suddain , and something must be done on a suddain for example-sake to others . that martial-law was certainly in ireland ever since he remembers , and long before ; but it hath been used so sparingly , that in the time of peace , for his part , he did never know any executed in his time . being asked on the lord strafford's motion , whether he hath known sir charles coote as provost-martial of conaught , and sir iohn bower provost-marshall of leimster , in time of peace , execute divers persons , rebels , and others , by martial-law . he answered , for sir charles coote he can very well answer , though he had authority , yet it is out of his memory that he ever executed any . and for sir iohn bower , he dwelleth remote from him , that the said sir iohn bower hath authority , and so have many other presidents , marshalls of the army , provost-marshalls of every province , and upon great reasons for it ; for though they be inferior men , yet the intent of their commission is but to prosecute those men that cannot be had into the law , that is , rebels and fugitives , and those men he hath heard have been hanged . whence my lord of strafford inferred , that he had done nothing de novo . that provost-marshalls have been always appointed , and executed those places under the general for the time being . the committee admitted that there be four provost-marshalls , but deny that they exercise marshall-law . that those provost-marshalls have executed divers men to death by marshall-law , rebels and traytors . i desire to produce an order of my lord of faulkland's , taken from his book of entries ; but being not proved , nor written with my lord faulkland's own hand , the reading of it was not admitted , but left to their lordships consideration . to prove the practise of the provost-marshalls . sir adam loftus being asked concerning the provost-marshalls executing of marshall-law before my lord of strafford's time , and on what men . he answered , that it is most apparent , in all times , since he can remember , martial-law hath been executed , that 's undoubted . but it was on rebels and out-laws , and he hath known no other , but such , executed by martial-law . lord robert dillon being asked to the same purpose . answered , he hath heard the provost-marshals have taken and hanged men by martial-law in time of peace , since the beginning of king iames his reign , that of rebels and out-laws there is no question . my lord of strafford desired to compare his orders with those of my lord of wilmotts . and they were compared accordingly in divers articles . his lordship produced a copy of his majesties letter , attested to be a true copy by charles gibson . which was read , being the letter recited in the sentence of my lord mountnorris . i observe , that the sentence of my lord mountnorris takes notice that the army was part of it in motion , and divers companies daily exercised , and that my self was for the most part there present , which shews the truth of my answer to that point in part . to free my self from the said sentence , i desire a letter from my self and council of war to secretary cook . december , immediately after the sentence , may be read , to shew that i was a suitor to the king in my lord mountnorris's behalf . but being after the sentence , and written by himself and the council of war , for extenuating of the fact , the reading of it was over-ruled . i conceive my lord renula and lord dillon made it appear , that i declined giving judgment in the sentence . but for further proof , sir robert farrer was asked , whether my lord of strafford did not declare he would be no judge , nor give opinion in that cause , and whether he sate bare ? he answered , that he was present at the sentence , and heard my lord of strafford say , that he would give no judgment , nor have to do with the business concerning my lord mountnorris , and he sate a good time with his hat off . being asked on one of the committees motion , touching his pressing of both the articles . he said , he acknowledged my lord did require judgment on both articles , and yet sate silent at the time they were upon the sentence . being asked , whether my lord of strafford did not desire them to regard him no more than an ordinary officer , and do no otherwise than in reason and judgment they should think fit . he answered , my lord of strafford said these very words , that they should not look upon him , but go to the cause according to their opinion directly . and being asked , whether my lord mountnorris was a captain of the army . he answered , yes , and the council did admit it . sir george wentworth being asked to the same purpose as sir robert farrer . he answered , he was present at the sentence , and heard my lord of stafford say publickly , he did not sit there as a judge , and that he would give no vote in it . being asked , whether my lord of stafford did not tell sir george wentworth that he should give no vote in it , because he was his lordships brother . he answered , yes , and he gave no judgment upon that reason ; that my lord of strafford did publickly bid them all look on him as a private man , and sate by as a suitor , not as a judge , and put off his hat at the beginning to speak , and sate uncovered all the while , till sentence was pronounced . to shew that my lord mountnorris was enlarged by me presently after , i here produce the warrant dated . december , though indeed he was released . december . the denial of my lord mountnorris , to examine witnesses , was by my lord cromwell , sir charles coote , sir iohn burlacy , not by me , i sitting by as a private party : for this i refer to my lord mountnorris's own deposition , and my lord renula's . to prove it further , sir robert farrer was asked touching the denying of further time and council . he answered , he cannot tell who denied him , he remembers my lord cromwell spake something , but knows not whether to that effect . sir robert farrer being asked on one of the managers motion , whether before their coming together they did know the occasion of their meeting . he answered , he did not , he was warned to attend , and did not know the business till he came thither . i did never communicate it to any man , till i brought the letter , because i was resolved to speak of it to no man living ; and in conclusion , left it wholly to the council . for the words , that i would not lose my share in the honour of that sentence ; if i spake the words , i meant the justice and satisfaction done me by that sentence , being by the prime officers of the kingdom . and whereas it was said yesterday , that though i thought it hard to lay words to my charge , yet i thought it not hard to lay words to the lord mountnorris his charge ; there is a difference between laying words to a man's charge , to accuse and condemn him of high-treason , to loss of estate , life , honour and posterity , and pressing words to only two days imprisonment , being only intended to discipline my lord mountnorris , and teach him to govern his speech with more modesty . his defence to the business of denwitt's execution . he confesses his vote concurred , and thinks he had authority , and may justifie it . he produced the sentence dated . february , . where his crimes are set forth to be the fellonious stealing of a quarrer of beef , and running away from his colours , in breach of the th and th articles , for which he was sentenced to death , according to the use of martial-law . his lordship opened the nature of the offence , being committed at a time when the men were attending to go to carlisle ; and the example might be dangerous , and desired sir george mountnorris might be asked , whether denwitt was not convicted to be guilty , adding , that he had been burnt in the hand ; and running from his colours is death by the laws of ireland . he produced a statute of ireland , h. . c. . whereby it is enacted , that every man that receives the king's wages , and departs from his captain , &c. shall be proceeded against as a felon . as also the statute h. . c. . the departing of a souldier from his colours is felony , and the offendor to undergo punishment of law. and h. . all laws formerly made in england are to be in force in ireland , and so that of h. . for further clearing whereof , he refers himself to the council . one of the managers did make reply in substance as followeth : that if this fact be not treason , yet it seems to prove his intention to subvert the law , which is treason . whereas he hopes for the king's mercy , so the commons do as really trust for the king's justice . the commission he insists on , is limitted with si opus fuerit ; and the king intends execution according to law , magna charta , and the rest of the laws of england being of force in ireland . there hath been an army in pay in ireland since henry the eighths time , and so there are some in pay here , in portsmouth and plymouth , and yet it follows not england must be governed by martial-law . the lord wilmott was produced by him , to justifie the publishing of orders , and exercise of martial law in ireland . but we appeal to your lordships , whether he gave testimony of executing any by martial-law . sir adam loftus says , there are provost-marshalls , and they do use to put men to death , but they are rebels whom they execute , which squares not with this case , only that of sir thomas wayneman is a full president . for the king's letter , it is written on his information , and if the king's ministers misinform him , he is just before god and men ; and the letter directs reparation , as it was fit there should be . my lord pretends he was no judge in the cause , your lordships may remember who procured the letter to proceed , and who sate there to manage the business , though he sate with his hat off ; if he would have been indifferent , he should have left the counsellors to themselves . and when some moved they might proceed on one article , he cryed both , and so he was the procurer of the sentence , with which he is charged , not with the voting of it . he pretends he sate by and said nothing , yet no man talked more at the sentence than himself . he proves not the course of martial-law , and there is a judge-marshal , to whom , in any proceedings in a martial way , address should be made , and it was desired he might be called , to testifie how they went about it . another of the managers did add , by way of reply , that whereas my lord of strafford insists much , as if martial-law were part of the same law of ireland , but the e. . is in force there , and that is recited in the petition of right in force here , as the ground why martial-law ought not to be in england , and therefore there is the same ground why it should not be in ireland . for that commission he speaks of opus est , is martial-law , when there is bellum flagrans ; but what need was there of martial-law in my lord mountnorris his case , when he would rather lose his hand than the sentence be executed . for the orders made by my lord wilmott and others , there is difference between making an order in way of terror , for fear of execution , and putting that thing in execution . many witnesses are produced to prove the practise , but not one speaks in point of execution , unless upon rebels and traytors , and such as would not come into law , whereas my lord mountnorris was had into the law. whereas he takes the example of those before him ; the commons cannot see the restrictions put upon his commission for martial-law , but in the preceding deputies time there was a limitation , that the provost should leave the souldiers to trial at law , except in time of war and rebellion . the statute of h. . is against him , for it makes the souldiers running from his colours felony , and certainly meant it should be tried by that law that makes it felony , which would have given him the benefit of clergy , not by martial-law . and though he thinks he may justifie it , he falls at last to a pardon . he says , he acquainted no body before hand with the business ; but if he may give the interpretation , he will be sure to put a good end to it ; if he would not prepare the council for justice , why should not the delinquent be prepared ? the words are pretended to be spoken in april , my lord of strafford procures the king's letter in iuly , and questions it not till december , here is no opus est . the very words of the order , the witnesses were examined by our command , which make it his own . one of the managers desired that two of the instructions of former deputies might be read . to this my lord of strafford excepted , as supplemental and dangerous , and not warranted by any other judicature . after some debate touching the admitting of my lord of ely to be examined , to the course of martial-laws in ireland , being new matter , arising out of his answer ; it was resolved that he should be examined only to that new matter . the earl of ely sworn , was examined what was the proceedings of the marshalls court when he was judge-marshall , and how long he had been so . he answered , he was years since judge there , and for the manner of proceeding , there was never any deputy , or governor of that kingdom , but they had a commission of martial-law to be exercised in the time of their government ; but the exercise of that law was two-fold , one was summary , the other was plenary : that which was summary and short , was committed to the provost-marshall , that sought after the rebels and kernes that kept the woods . these , when they were apprehended , the provost-marshall hanged them on the next tree ; and this was in poor cases , where the estate of the party that prosecutes is not worth s. in the second , which is the plenary proceeding , there are three considerations to be had , of the time , the place , and the person ; the time must necessarily be in time of war , the place in the field , and the persons must be such as are subject to the rule of martial-law . and the proceeding was thus ; the parties complained , the other appearing , an information was drawn in writing , witnesses produced , and reduced in writing , a sentence given absolutely or condemnatory , and the party punished or acquitted , and the warrant directed to the provost-marshall to put the judgment in execution . but when the army was dissolved , and every one returned to their own home , souldiers , captains , and commanders ; this power ceased , and was no farther executed ; for it had been an extraordinary damage to his majesty , that by the martial-law every one should be tried ; for he loses nothing but his life , not his lands or his goods , and therefore the proceeding without was so slow and seldom , that he had not remembred any man of quality worth l. or l. in thirty years to have been executed by martial-law . here the manager did offer the instructions given in my lord faulkland's time , which mr. fitz-gerard testified to be by him examined with the original in the signet-office , as to the . and th articles . part of the instructions were read , viz. . such as are to be brought to trial at law , are not to be executed by the marshal , except in time of war and rebellion . one of the managers observed , that my lord of strafford would have power of martial-law over my lord mountnorris , but would not execute him ; which shews he desires not blood so much as power of blood ; that the law of all the peers might be under his girdle , and he besought their lordships to consider it . whereas , he said , the blood of their lordships ancestors was spent in the irish wars ; this way , their own blood may be spent in the peace of ireland , and peace of england , &c. my lord of strafford taking notice of some words , charging him that my lord mountnorris lost his offices in that sentence ; in way of answer said , that they were lost in a sentence in the castle-chamber for misdemeanors fully proved , and by himself confessed , and therefore his majesty disposed of them . to which one of the managers replyed , that there was no sentence in the castle-chamber against him . and so after some discourses and resolution touching the method of the proceedings about the next articles , the house was adjourned . the first day . monday , march . . the sixth article . the charge . that the said earl of strafford , without any legal procéedings , and upon a paper-petition of richard rolstone , did cause the said lord mountnorris to be disseized and put out of possession of his freehold , and inheritance of his mannor of tymore in the county of armagh , in the kingdom of ireland , the said lord mountnorris having béen years before in quiet possession thereof . mr. glyn opened the sixth article , setting forth the execution of an arbitrary power by the earl of strafford , contrary to law , in point of the estates of his majesties subjects , by disseizing and putting the lord mountnorris , a peer , out of possession of lands of l. a year , which he had possessed years before , on a paper-petition , without any rules of justice , during the said lord mountnorris his imprisonment , contrary to an act of parliament read the other day , to king iames his instructions , to the directions of his majesties proclamation , and the rules of proceeding in the kingdom of ireland . the decree made in the cause betwixt rolstone and my lord mountnorris was first offered , the manager observing , that it was nothing to the matter , whether the decree were just or unjust , and that it never depended in the chancery , as is set forth in his answer . thomas little , the lord of strafford's secretary , being sworn , attested that the copy produced was under his own hand . and here my lord of strafford informed their lordships , that upon his defence he would ask mr. little some questions , desiring their lordships to remember that he is upon his oath . the decree was read dated . iuly , . whereby for the reasons therein set forth , and with the assistance of the lord chief justice of the common pleas ; it was , among other things , ordered , that henry rolston should be put into quiet possession of certain lands therein mentioned . lord mountnorris being examined , whether he was put out of possession by vertue of that order , and how long he had possession of the lands ? he answered , he was in quiet and peaceable possession from may . till he was put out by my lord of strafford's warrant , august . . as was written to him from an agent that was there from the delivery of the warrant to the sheriff . that he was all the while the business was in prosecution , till his coming into england , a little before his putting out of possession , in prison , under restraint , for not suing out his pardon , upon the sentence of the council of war. mr. anslow sworn and interrogated to the same purpose . answered , that to my lord mountnorris's possession of the lands , he can say only by seeing the accounts passed by former receivers , and the patent my lord mountnorris had of the land ; but for his being put out of the possession by the order , he found when he was left in ireland , about a year and half ago he was put out of possession by an order of my lord of strafford , and that he being there , could have no rents paid , henry rolsion's son being in possession , the father being dead . being asked , whether a petition was not preferred for liberty to proceed at law. he answered , it was in his own behalf , for the land was estated on him by his father : and that he the deponent being to pass his land on the commission of grace , rolston petitioned for it himself ; and therefore he the deponent petitioned it might be hindred to pass , and that he might have his right tried legally , but he could get no answer ; the commissioners saying , they sate not there to question any lords estate . the manager observed this to be the assuming of an arbitrary power of jurisdiction , in a case of land , without any former president ; wherein , if he be justifiable , he may as well , riding on the high-way , determine any mans estate ; and added , that if my lord of strafford insist on this , they shall prove it not only in this , but in twenty more of this condition on the reply . my lord of strafford desiring they might bring their proofs at once . the manager answered , that they should prove an act of the same nature , but of a higher strain , concerning a peer of the realm ( for he chased such lions . ) but my lord of strafford desiring they might be kept to that within the charge . his lordship began his defence in substance as followeth : i confess i am charged with treason by the honourable house of commons , and that is my greatest grief ; for if it were not an arrow sent out of that quiver , it would not be so heavy as it is , but as it comes from them it pierces my heart through ; not with guilt , yet with grief , that in my grey hairs i should be mis-understood by the companions of my youth , with whom i have formerly spent so much time . if the decree be just ( as it is most just ) i hope it will go very far in the case . that whereas it is said it was against a peer , justice excepts not persons , and i know no priviledge peers have in point of possession of land above common persons . the act of parliament read the other day , against which , it is supposed to be made , i conceive it to be the statute in h. . time , and desire your lordships to remember , that by the last words , the king's prerogative is saved . i have done nothing contrary to the instructions in king iames his time , nor the proclamation , nor any thing , but according to the power of former deputies . i acknowledge my answer is mistaken , in saying , the cause depended formerly in the chancery , which was not out of cunning , but a meer failing of memory . i desire my commission may be read , whereby it will appear i had power to do that for which i am now questioned . the commission was read , whereby he had authority to proceed secundum consuetudines terrae , &c. from whence he observed , that having so great a power , the receiving of a petition , and giving relief to a poor body , should not be so great a fault , being at the most , but the exceeding of a jurisdiction , but by no construction can be made treason . that yet this is no exceeding of a jurisdiction , but was a power always in the deputies before his time , and warranted . to prove it , he produced the printed instructions , whereby the deputy and council-table are forbid to meddle with common businesses within cognizance of ordinary courts , nor alter possession of land , nor make private orders , or hearings , nor make injunctions for staying suits in any civil cause . which shews , that that course was in practise before the instructions took it away , ( viz. ) to alter possessions , to grant injunctions , &c. to prove by witnesses , that this power was always exercised by the deputy in the nature of a court of requests in england . he offered my lord primate of armagh his deposition , being taken , by reason of his sickness , by vertue of an order of their lordships ; but for that the commons had liberty by that order to cross-examine , and yet had no notice thereof , or of the depositions so taken ; the using of these depositions was waved , after much debate , till the next day , in the mean time the commons may cross-examine . henry dillon asked , whether petitions have been usually preferred to the deputies , and in how many governors time he hath known it to be so , that these paper-petitions have been preferred . he answered , his father had a lease during his own life and his wives , and the longer liver of them , and fifteen years after to his executors and administrators , which he the said henry dillon ( being come to full age ) enquired into ; and looking upon his fathers evidences , he found a business there depending between sir patrick plaintiff , and his father defendant , before my lord chichester , in the time of his government ; and he found several orders under my lord chichesters hand in that cause , that he being executor to maurice fitzgerard , and having occasion to peruse his writings , to see what debts were due to him , he found among them several orders of my lord grandison's time , one petition of fitzgerard , as well for debts as for land. that in the time of my lord faulkland he observed , and hath seen several orders made by his lordship , and one made on behalf of his sister mary dillon , for a portion paid by his father , and he recovered the portion , and received the money . that in the time of my lord of corke and lord of elyes being governors , there was a petition preferred against him , by my lord of longford , for a horse taken by him the said henry dillon , as sheriff of the county of longford , pretending it to be a stray , and belonging to his majesty , and triable , as he conceived , in the exchequer , and that he did appear , but my lord of longford died before examination . being asked , whether the causes were before the deputy alone , or the deputy and council . he answered , that in the time of my lord chichester he knows not whether they were before the deputy alone , but he found only my lord chichester's hand to the orders . in my lord grandison's time he saw his hand only , but where the causes depended he knows not . but that in my lord faulkland's time , was only by my lord-deputy : that of my lord corkes and lord of elyes , he remembers not whether it was before their lordships and the council ; but the way he was called to answer was by pursevant , before he had notice of the suit. being asked , whether examinations were taken . he answered , that in the case of his sister , he conceives there were examinations taken upon oath . and that in the cause before my lord of corke and lord of ely the attachment was under the hands of the two lords justices alone . being asked on the managers motion , whether he hath any of those orders to shew . he answered , he knows not whether those in my lord chichester's time were delivered to my lord dun , on composing the difference , or in his custody . robert lord dillon was asked , what he heard my lord grandison say in maintenance of this judicature by my lord-deputy alone . he answered , that he heard my lord grandison himself say nothing of it , but he heard by others , that he pretended to it as a judicature belōnging to the sword. being asked what he hath known of the practice of this court before the lord deputy alone , before how many deputies ; and upon what occasions : he answered , that he hath seen divers orders of deputies , or petitions , singly signed by themselves , and no other hand but the deputies . being asked in how many deputies times ; he answered , that he hath seen of my lord faulklands , and lord grandisons , and to his best remembrance ( but he will not peremptorily say it ) of my lord chichesters . being asked of the earl of bathes motion , whether he hath known them to proceed upon petition for matters of land. he answered , he never knew any . being asked on mr. maynards motion , whether they were orders of reference , or by consent ; he answered , he remembers one more particularly , and it was an order of my lord of faulklands , of reference to my lord angier , that was master of the rolls ; and was for a debt . being asked on my lord of straffords motion , whether sir paul davis clerk of the council , do not ordinarily examine on oath ; and thereupon causes come to publication . he answered , the clerk of the council hath a commission for taking oath , and wheresoever the deputy requires , he is to take oath ; but whether de facto he took oath on those former orders , he remembers not . and whether he takes oath in things determined by the deputy alone , he knows nothing of it . but it is the common course of proceedings , when there is an order for an attachment , an oath is taken of course , that the party is in contempt . being asked on mr. whitlocks motion , how anciently commission hath been granted to the clerk of the council to take an oath . he answered , he doth not know ; but knoweth , that since he had the honour to sit at the board , they have had them , and that is or years . being asked whether he hath known in matters of equity , or title of land , any determination by any other deputy alone ; and whether my lord of strafford hath not done it in many cases : he answered to the first , that he doth not remember any particular case of it : to the second , that he never knew my lord of strafford , with his remembrance , meddle with matters of law ; but for matters of equity , to his remembrance he hath . and this my lord of strafford confessed , this being in the court of requests is to the chancery . to prove that the clerks of the council have power to examine on oath , an order was read to the lord chancellor from the lord faulkland , for drawing up a commission to enable sir william usher for taking affidavits , and ministring oaths in all causes wherein the lord deputy or the board , &c. his lordship came to shew that the instructions were so much mistaken , that they were never observed by the deputy , judges of assize , presidents of provincial , &c. nor could the poor irish be debarred from remedy on petitions , without occasioning an universal out-cry , being not acquainted with legal forms , and beggarly ; and the man that came against my lord mountnorris , was in forma pauperis . to prove this , my lord of straffords book of entries was mentioned , and an order of my lord faulklands made in iune . which is after , the instructions being in . and being affirmed by my lord wilmott to be under my lord faulklands hand , it was read : containing a petition , which set forth the petitioners disturbance in his possession of certain lands by sir iames fitzgerard , contrary to a former order , and assaulting and beating the petitioner and his tenants , &c. and my lord of faulklands warrant thereupon for sir iames his appearance , to answer the contempt ; and for the sheriffs keeping the petitioner in possession . he produced another order of my lord of faulklands , august . . being for attaching divers persons that had not paid provisions for the deputies houshold . he produced another order made on walter dennotts petition , october . for direction to certain debtors to pay some moneys due . being a warrant to examine the truth of the plaintiffs demands ; and a command to the debtors to pay what 's due , or give better security , else to appear , to shew cause to the contrary ; the same being grounded upon letters out of england in the petitioners behalf . he produced an order of my lord of corke , and lord of ely , affirmed by the lord corke to be under his hand , on petition of henry iawant : the order being a reference to the lord primate ; and to take order for the petitioners relief as by a former order of reference was directed . and whereas it may be objected that these were in church causes , or plantation causes , his lordship observed , that these orders were made by the deputy and justices alone , without the council , though by the instructions , the deputy ought not to meddle with such causes , without the council . he then offered to shew , that this practice of hearing business on paper petitions , is used by the presidents in their provincial courts , and by the judges in their circuits , by commissions from the deputy ; whence his lordship observed , that if the deputies have power to authorize , they have likewise power to execute ; and he offered to this purpose , my lord ranulagh's answer at council-board , under mr. mewtis his hand . here the manager observed , that my lord of strafford is charged with exorbitant using of the law , and cannot be justified with others breaking of the law ; besides , it is neither in the charge , nor in his answer . my lord of strafford answered , that he offered this only to shew , that he is no innovator of the law , further than others before him ; and to shew that the instructions were mistaken in that point , and could not be observed , nor can they without much detriment to the commonwealth , yea that they have broken them , and that he only hath observed them . and so this matter was laid aside , as not fully pertinent to the charge . his lordship in the next place observed , that as the case stands with the government and people of ireland , there is a necessity that this power that hath been thus at all times in the deputies , should still remain there , for relief of the poorer sort of people , who are not able to undergo the long circuit of legal proceedings , nor are acquainted with them ; and must be drawn to it by degrees ; and that the plaintiff in this cause was a suitor in forma pauperis ; that it is a great assistance to the merchants , where they may recover their debts suddenly , and not lose their occasions , and their benefit by increase of trade ; that some reports being raised , as if he had neglected the poorer sort of people , and not given redress as former deputies have done , he advertised it over to his majesty , and fully informed him of the proceedings and instructions , and desired his majesties pleasure ; which was declared by a letter under his majesties signet , received october . the ninth year of the king , and to himself directed , which was read ; wherein recital is made of the instructions , . and particularly in the point of judicature by the deputies , that it is necessary to uphold such power , especially for relief of the poorer sort there , as formerly had been used ; and power is thereby to him given , ( notwithstanding any former directions , proclamation , or restraint ) to hear and determine such causes as shall be brought before him , according to the power of former deputies , yet not to meddle with titles of free-hold , except in cases of equity ; but to refer title of free-hold to its proper judicature , and not to hear causes where there is priority in other courts , unless in case of appeal for lack of justice , after due obedience : power likewise ( the said rules observed ) to call before him any person complained of , and therein to make such order and decree as shall stand with justice , and to cause the same to be put in execution . dated october . car. he then offered the first decree in the cause to be read , that had formerly been read , having relation to this , bearing date may . . and the same was read , being signed wentworth . gerard lowther , &c. whence his lordship observed , that the order was made for relief of a poor man , where my lord of mountnorris had by violence , and extream hard pressure , possest himself of lands worth l. a year , never paying out of his purse above l. the rest arising on a letter procured for sawing mills , and by interest at above in the hundred ; wherein his lordship had the assistance of two reverend and learned judges , the chancellor that now is , and sir gerard lowther , that the decree is in every part just and equitable ; and if he had not given relief , he had been justly censured , that the party is now in town , and means to complain , and sue for l. more than he is yet allowed . the committee declared , they insist not on the merit of the cause , as not being material . and so my lord of strafford observed , that he stands justified by the kings letter , which makes things differ from what they did formerly , and shew , that the power was there before , and is now restored . his lordship further added , that his practice in exercising jurisdiction , was conformable to that letter , viz. that he medled not with title of land triable at law , nor with causes which had priority of suit in other courts ; that he referred the business of the provincial courts to these courts , and many businesses to the judges of assize , and none determined by him , but upon full hearing and assistance of the judges . and whereas it is said , my lord mountnorris was kept in prison by reason of not suing out the pardon on his sentence pronounced by the council of war , i will make it appear it was for contempts , in refusing to answer a bill exhibited against him on the kings behalf , in the castle-chamber . mr. slingsby being asked touching that point ; answered , that he did constantly wait on my lord to the castle-chamber , and there heard the information of the kings attorney against my lord mountnorris read , and my lord mountnorris was called to answer it several times , and was committed to prison for not answering it ; but he cannot precisely speak to the time , but he thinks he was left in prison upon that , till my lords going into england . sir adam loftus asked touching the same point , did first make his humble suit that he might not be examined in any cause concerning my lord mountnorris , for some reasons inducing him thereunto . which my lord of strafford said was , because sir adam succeeded my lord mountnorris in the place of vice-treasurer ; and being required ( if that were all ) to speak notwithstanding : he answered , that he conceives he was committed for not answering the information ; but the precise day of his commitment , and the time how long , he cannot well remember . being asked , whether he was not brought before the deputy a day or two before he came away , and refused to answer , and was thereupon committed : he answered , that it was true . being asked on the managers motion , whether he was not committed on the old sentence , and remained in prison on that ; he answered , that he doth not know . if i had time to produce the orders of the castle-chamber , i could make it appear when my lord mountnorris was committed , and how long he continued so ; but he was committed for that contempt , and remained committed six months , i think , before he would answer ; which i would not speak if it were not true . the lord dillon called , and asked to the same purpose : he answered , that the judges of the castle-chamber are by commission , and that he is not of that commission . that the deputy , or chief governour , calls by way of assistance , such as he pleases . that he heard at council-board , my lord mountnorris was committed for a contempt , in not answering in the star-chamber ; but when it began , or how long , he knows not . in execution of this jurisdiction , i had no private advantage to my self , nothing but trouble was gained by it , no new thing was done , but such as was formerly by all the chief governours there ; and such as i had special warrant for from his majesty . i have observed the rules that guide others in chancery , and other courts of equity , and the judges in their circuits : therefore it can be no subversion of the laws ; for the same thing done by others hath been legally done , it differs only in respect of place , being before my self ; and so cannot be treason : and though it might be illegal here , yet it is according to the laws and customs of ireland , by which i am to be judged for all things there done . and the same is done by the presidents of the north , and of wales ; who did familiarly receive petitions from poor people that cannot seek remedy by a legal course ; and yet it is not treason in england : and it cannot sink into my understanding , how the enlargement of a jurisdiction should be strained to high treason ; specially being warranted by ancient practice , and modern authority , being only according to the nature of a court of requests , and not entrenching on the jurisdiction of law courts . and so i hope this will never rise up in judgment against me as treason , either in it self , or by way of application . the manager began his reply , in substance as followeth : whereas my lord of strafford says , this is not treason ; this is the burden of his song : but this is one of the particulars that prove his design to subvert the fundamental laws of both kingdoms ; he will not acknowledge a cumulative treason , he must have a treason over shooes and boots ; yet if he will look on it all together , he shall see the horridness of it , and it will prove as great a treason as ever was presented to a house of parliament . the manager opened the article , and said , they dispute not whether if it had been done in chancery , or other courts , it had been well done ; but it is done by him without rule of law ; and hereupon he hath drawn to himself an arbitrary power . whereas my lord of strafford , to take from himself the act of parliament h. . enjoyning , that causes should be referred to the proper courts , urged the last words , [ saving the kings prerogative ] we do observe , that when he is charged with an exorbitant proceeding , to the destruction of the law ; he flies to the kings prerogative for shelter . that to mention the kings prerogative in the face of the peers of the realm , and in presence of all the commons , when he is charged with an exorbitant proceeding , to the subversion of the laws , is but to cast a scandal upon the kings prerogative , and to make it have a worse relish ; whereas the law supports the kings prerogative , and the subject supports it . when his answer is charged not to be according to truth , he casts a gloss upon it , from the easiness of his being mistaken ; whereas , when he is able to justifie it , he glories in it , as that whereto he must stand or fall . that the letters patents which my lord of strafford produces , rise in judgment against him ; for the king hath trusted him ad custodiendas leges regni , and therefore if he hath broken through them , he hath broken his trust. he says , it is strange the exceeding of jurisdiction should be laid to his charge as treason ; he is charged with the subverting of the law , and that 's more than the exceeding of a power . he read the instructions to warrant his act ; and by these the commons desire to be judged , whether they do not in the negative say , there shall be no such proceeding before the deputy ; and yet he will imply , there have been proceedings to the contrary , which we cannot see . he justifies his proceedings by former deputies , and hath produced henry dillon , who hath seen several proceedings in sir henry bagnalls time , and others , where orders have been made by the deputy alone , but the orders themselves are not brought ; whereas if they were looked on , and consideration had what results out of them , their lordships would not have suffered them to be read , without attestation that they were true copies . but now whether they be entred or no , or what other proceedings there were , the witness doth not know ; and therefore they are no evidence , nor in truth ought to be offered : and the witness being asked what the orders were , he says , one was a reference , and whether witnesses were examined , he says , he doth not know . he produces my lord dillon ; and we offer to be adjudged by him ; for he says , he knew not any deputy before my lord of strafford , that hath intermeddled with matters of land , except in plantation and church causes ; and this order is charged to be made by him alone . he pretends this is a court , and a prerogative of the sword. we know not whether my lord of strafford intends to keep it by force ; but whereas he produceth a commission for giving oath to the clerk of the council ; this commission needed not if it were a court , for the court it self would give an oath ; and whereas he mentions it to be in the nature of the court of requests , we would gladly know , whether there be not authority in the judge to give an oath . he produces several orders in my lord of faulkland's time , the first is expresly for plantation lands ; and there was no determination in equity , or otherwise . the second order he produced in my lord faulkland's time , was a meer green-cloth case , and nothing to this purpose . the third order produced , was in a business recommended from england to my lord of faulkland , and such causes as are out of the instructions excepted . the order in the lord of corke's time , was but an order of reference to the archbishop ; and a reference is no determination , a private person may do as much . so that we observe , nothing hath been offered to prove , that a deputy alone hath determined matter of possession ; and in this we rest with confidence , that none ever did before himself ; and shall therefore desire the examination of some privy-counsellors . he produced a letter from his majesty to proceed in such causes : but if by law it ought not to be , then a letter , and authority derived thereby , is void , and warrants not proceeding in the subject ; the letter was as just as might be , being obtained on his information , to whose government and trust his majesty had committed the kingdom ; and if he mis-inform , he must answer it . and the letter is written with caution , giving authority to proceed in matter of equity , as former deputies had done ; and if it be not proved that his predecessors had used such proceedings , where is his authority ? he says , he hath proceeded according to the direction of the kings letter ; that is , he never determined title of land but in equity ; and when such causes have come to him , he hath referred them to law , which we are forced to disprove that , by offering it under his own hand , that whereas a nobleman of the realm , my lord of baltinglas , had mortgaged to sir robert parkhurst , for l. land of a l. year : when sir robert had title at law , and might as mortgagor , have entred after the day past , sir robert prefers a petition to my lord of strafford himself , and he without the council , determines the possession , and takes it from the mortgagee , and afterwards he purchases the lands himself , and letts them for and odd pounds a year . for my lord mountnorris his imprisonment , the manager said , that when his distressed lady , the mother of twelve children , petitioned his majesty , declaring the great distress her husband suffered by the tyrannical power exercised over them ; his majesty like a gracious prince , referred it to the consideration of the deputy , that on submission he should deliver him out of prison . but when the poor lady presented it with tears in her eyes , and cast her self at his feet , though there was a reference from his majesty ; yet he , that would at another time shelter himself under the kings prerogative , refuses to give so much respect as to entertain it ; and when the eldest son came , refused to accept it . another of the managers added , that whereas there is a restriction in the kings letter , that the earl of strafford should not meddle with any thing in other courts , they would shew , that after two decrees in a court , my lord hath on a petition , decreed quite contrary ; and it was no beggars cause , but a knights , and l. value : that to the kings letter they will give all reverence . but if my lord of strafford had found such a constant practice to be proved , he needed no letter to set up the jurisdiction that was in him before ; that this letter under the signet , can give no countenance against an act of parliament ; which orders , that the deputy shall not meddle with causes , but remit them to their proper courts ; and no other exposition can be given of the saving of the kings prerogative , but only a reservation of his liberty to sue in any courts , and for him to seek by mis-information , to procure a letter from his majesty , for a power not warrantable by law , he conceives it an abuse of his majesty , and that makes his fault the greater ; and he instanced in the marquess of dublin , who for procuring letters patents under the great seal , to exercise a power against law , was complained of in parliament , and had judgment for it , among other things , of high treason . they proceeded to proof . and first , the earl of corke being asked , whether before my lord of straffords time , he hath known the deputy , or justices alone , determine any matter of land , in equity or otherwise ; he answered , he remembers not any , except in cases of the church and plantation . the lord ranulagh being asked to that point , answered , never any to his knowledge ; having been of the table two and twenty years . sir adam loftus being asked to the same point , answered , he remembers not any ; having been a privy-counsellor years . the lord mountnorris being asked to that point , answered , he never knew any , having been a privy-counsellor since iac. and lived in ireland years ; that he was there all the time of my lord chichester , or very near ; and was so acquainted with his proceedings , that he dare engage himself for all he is worth , that the lord chichester never put any such order under his hand . the earl of bath sworn , and asked to that point ; answered , that he hath often heard the deputy in cases of debt , for relief of poor men , hath proceeded alone ; but in cases of land he never heard of any . to take off henry dillon's testimony , the manager alledged , that he had been sentenced at the council-board , for speaking untruths . my lord of strafford desired the exception might not be made ; some exceptions by him made to witnesses against him , being not admitted ; and that there might be unum pondus , una mensura . the manager answered , in eodem genere mali. this exception is not for extortion , or collateral matters , but for perjury . thereupon his acknowledgment was read ; wherein he confesses he had highly transgressed against the honour of his majesty and the board , in presuming to declare apparent untruths . and that such an acknowledgment was made , was testified by sir adam loftus , and likewise by the lord dillon , who shewed their lordships the occasion thereof . to the matter of my lord mountnorris his imprisonment , it was offered under my lord of straffords own hand , to shew that it was partly upon the sentence , december . . my lord of strafford not denying it to be his hand , it was read , being a reference upon my lord mountnorris his petition , and in substance as followeth . that for the petitioners restraint more than twelve months , he hath no body to blame but himself , that hath all that space lain under a deserved censure of the council of war , and stood in contempts , and trifled with the court of castle-chamber . that his majesties removal of the sentence hath been often signified , but never sued forth ; that the petitioner did to the same effect , petition the lord deputy in may last , and therefore all the answer that for the present can be given , is , that his most gracious pardon seeks no man , nor can his majesty remit all of that sentence to be applied to the petitioners benefit , till by his humble suit he procured his majesties pardon under the great seal , &c. which taking the usual way , and humbly acknowledging the justness of that sentence , he may have , &c. a petition was then read , directed to the earl of strafford from my lord mountnorris . praying a warrant for a pardon under the great seal , according to the law and the purport of his majesties directions ; if his lordship shall conceive his majesties letters ( on which the lord mountnorris relied as sufficient ) did not amount to a legal pardon . then was read my lord of straffords answer . dublin , ianuary . . when the petitioner shall prefer his petition for the said pardon , acknowledging the justness of the sentence pronounced against him by the council of war , we shall take his request into our further consideration . wentworth . whence one of the managers observed , that the king directs a pardon to be drawn ; and till the sentence be acknowledged to be just , no consideration shall be taken , and that the preamble of the pardon recites as much ; and he would not suffer it to be sealed till this acknowledgment passed . then was produced the lady mountnorris her petition to his majesty , referred to the lord strafford . mr. anslowe sworn , attested the truth of the copy ; and it was read . setting forth her sorrow on behalf of her husband , suffering in honour , health , and imprisonment , for a word mis-interpreted , and still pursued in the castle-chamber ; and humbly praying a command for his coming into england , &c. his majesties reference to my lord of strafford , iuly . . his majesty is pleased , that on such a submission as the lord deputy shall approve of , he shall have his liberty to come into england ; wherein the lord deputy is to take notice , and to give order therein accordingly . mr. anslowe being asked , whether this was brought to the deputy by the lady mountnorris ; and whether he did not reject it : he answered , that he was by when my lady mountnorris presented the petition , she was humbly on her knees to desire my lord of strafford to receive it : and he refused absolutely to receive it from her . they then produced the order in a cross suit , in t . robert parkhurst plaintiff , and the lord baltinglasse , & al. defendants , et e contra . the order was read , whereby certain lands for l. paid at several times to the viscount , and l. more to be paid afterwards , were setled with sir robert parkhurst . william brettergh sworn , was interrogated touching my lord baltinglasse his possession of the said lands , and his dispossessing thereof . he answered , that he was sollicitor for prosecuting of this cause , and made defence of it in behalf of my lord of baltinglasse , being then in england : but at the time of the decree , his lordship was come over ; that his lordship never made answer to it ; but when the cause came to hearing , my lord of strafford ordered the possession of the land against my lord baltinglasse ; and the possession before was in one grimble , who was tenant . and that he could speak many other things concerning the carriage of it . mr. glyn desired the witness might be examined touching my lord of straffords purchase of those lands ; and offered the articles whereby my lord of strafford leased the land for years , and at l. per annum . my lord of strafford confest thereupon , that he had it , but it was in trust for a noble person . the manager observed , that whether it was for a friend , or himself , it is equal ; for a man will do a courtesie for his friend , as soon as for himself ; and so he concluded his reply , hoping that their lordships were satisfied , that he hath introduced an innovation ; and being so , that he hath exercised a tyrannical power over the estates of his majesties subjects . to such parts thereof as was new matter , my lord of strafford replied , in substance as followeth . i desire that these matters that come on me suddenly , and being no part of my charge , may not stick with your lordships . in the business of my lord of baltinglasse , i remember little , only that my lord baltinglasse had forfeited his estate to sir robert parkhurst , who had a clear and free estate in the land , by fine and recovery , and divers conveyances ; the lord baltinglasse desired me to take the hearing of the cause , to see if i could procure from sir robert parkhurst , a further sum of money : the order was made with both their likings ; and my lord baltinglasse was content to perfect the whole estate . sir robert parkhurst was in possession at that time , not the lord baltinglasse ; that seeing no cause to relieve him in equity , they left him to seek relief in other places . that afterwards an agreement was made , l. received by the lord baltinglasse ; and after l. more got to be given , and so there was a full conveyance and acquittance from father and son , that himself hath no interest in it , but only of trust to anothers use . for that which was offered against the jurisdiction ; the proofs are negative , and contradict not what i have offered ; and if i might shew my lord of faulklands book of entries , i could produce as much done by my lord faulkland alone , . attachments against body and goods , hearings between parties and parties , warrants for distresses , warrants to the sheriff for possession of lands , injunctions to judges of assize . for my lord mountnorris his imprisonment , i desire your lordships to observe , that his majesties reference is , that i shall not set him at liberty without a submission , so that he may thank himself for his restraint . for my carriage to the lady mountnorris at the delivering the petition , i desire your lordships to hear a witness . who being asked to that purpose , answered , that he was present when my lady mountnorris was once with my lord , but knows not whether that were the time in question . it was about . that he was present when her son delivered one before ; which my lord would receive , but her son would not deliver the reference , but a copy , being so commanded by his lady mother . that when my lady delivered it on her knees , my lord told her , she had done him the greatest injury she could devise ; and that if she had broke his head , she should have pleased him better . being asked , whether my lord rejected the petition ; he answered , that he cannot certainly remember what was done with it ; but my lord said , he could not do any thing on a copy . the lord viscount dillon being asked to the same point , answered , he was by when my lady mountnorris came to my lord to the covent-garden , with a petition in her hand , and kneeled to my lord , but my lord desired her to rise , and offering the petition , he said , he would not meddle with any petition at that time ; that my lord was going abroad , and led her to her coach in civility , but received not the petition . my lord of strafford professeth , these things be so long past , that he remembers them not well , nor whether she offered a copy the second time . the manager did here observe , that he acknowledged the civility of my lord of strafford in this point ; but there is one point sticks with him , as higher than any offered , and then their lordships may think he goes high enough ; that there hath been proved my lord of straffords tyrannical . proceedings on the life and fortune of my lord mountnorris ; one step more , the manager said he had heard off , and that was his soul , and that sticks with him more than any thing else , he kept him in prison till he should acknowledge the justness of a sentence , which in his heart he abhorred , and held unjust ; that all former tyrants , when they would proceed against a man , have found out two false witnesses ; but when a man shall be made a false witness against himself , it is much more tyrannical . and he wished this design had kept only in ireland , and had not come into england , which he hopes shall be so no more . and so after a short reply to the two particulars last mentioned , the manager closed the th article , conceiving that it remains as was offered , that my lord of strafford hath determined things contrary to the commission and authority obtained from his majesty . the manager added , that for the present the commons will pass by the th article , and proceed to the th , concerning arbitrary power over the estates of the kings subjects ; and of that , the last part , only concerning the lady hibbott . but my lord of strafford professing his disability to endure the toil ; and that he was ready to drop down , in respect of his much sickness and weakness , and desiring their lordships to turn the case inward , and to see in the closet of their own hearts , if there be not reason , that being upon his life , his honour , and children , and all he hath , he should not be prest further ; and setting forth how the rest of the day after his going hence , is disposed of . the house was adjourned till next day . the fourth day . thursday , march . . the eighth article . the charge . that the said earl of strafford , upon a petition of sir john gifford knight , the first day of february , in the said thirteenth year of his majesties reign , without any legal process , made a decrée or order against adam uiscount loftus of ely , a peer of the said realm of ireland , and lord chancellor of ireland , and did cause the said uiscount to be imprisoned , and kept close prisoner , on pretence of disobedience to the said decree or order . and the said earl , without any authority , and contrary to his commission , required and commanded the said lord. uiscount to yield up unto him the great seal of the realm of ireland , which was then in his custody , by his majesties command , and imprisoned the said chancellor for not obeying such his command . and without any legal proceeding , did in the same thirtéenth year imprison george earl of kildare , a péer of ireland , against law , thereby to enforce him to submit his title to the mannor and lordship of castleleigh in the quéens country , ( being of great yearly value ) to the said earl of strafford's will and pleasure , and kept him a year prisoner for the said cause ; two months whereof he kept him close-prisoner , and refused to enlarge him , notwithstanding his majesties letters for his enlargement to the said earl of strafford directed . and upon a petition exhibited in october , anno domini . by thomas hibbots , against dame mary hibbots widow , to him the said earl of strafford ; the said earl of strafford recommended the said petition to the council-table of ireland , where the most part of the council gave their uote and opinion for the said lady ; but the said earl finding fault herewith , caused an order to be entred against the said lady , and threatned her , that if she refused to submit thereunto , he would imprison her , and fine her five hundred pounds ; that if she continued obstinate , he would continue her imprisonment , and double her fine every month ; by means whereof she was enforced to relinquish her estate in the lands questioned in the said petition , which shortly after were conveyed to sir robert meredith , to the use of the said earl of strafford . and the said earl in like manner did imprison divers others of his majesties subjects , upon pretence of disobedience to his orders , decrées , and other illegal command by him made for pretended debts , titles of lands , and other causes in an arbitrary and extrajudicial course , upon paper-petitions , to him preferred , and no cause legally depending . the article was opened by the manager . thomas hibbott's petition to my lord of strafford was read , setting forth ; that sir thomas hibbot's being seized of certain land , conveyed the same to the use of himself for life , after death to the petitioner in tail , and divers remainders over : that sir thomas of the said lands became seized for life , and died , the petitioner being in england , and not knowing of the conveyance . that dame mary hibbots , iohn hoy her son , and others , taking advantage of his absence , combined to get the deeds , touching the lands , into their hands . that they caused one booky to come into england to perswade the petitioner to go into ireland , and he went accordingly , and was brought to the place of the said ladies abode , who pretended that she had an estate in the lands during life . that by this means , before he could be advised , he was drawn to contract for the lands at half value , and he entred into bond to perform agreements . that the petitioner was more willing thereunto , in respect of a desire to buy other lands of iohn martin's , and agreed for it , and was to receive l. of the said lady , which martin was to receive , and the greatest part paid out at the time and place appointed . that a deed-poll was drawn from him to seal to , and acknowledge a fine , and deliver security for great part of the purchase-money . that notwithstanding a fine acknowledged , and security given up , the lady hibbots refused to let martin have the said money , and so the petitioner disappointed of the bargain ; and therefore prays , that the evidences , deed-poll , fine and bond might be delivered up , and the agreement discharged , being surreptitiously obtained . the lord-deputies warrant was subscribed and read , bearing dated . october , . viz. that the lady hibbot , &c. should on sight thereof , forthwith deliver the said deeds , &c. to sir paul davis , and to appear at council-table the th of this instant october . the manager observed , that the petition was preferred in the name of thomas hibbots , though , in truth , he had never knowledge of the exhibiting of it , and that the first bargain with the lady hibbots was made . september , . the petition exhibited . october , . the decree was read , iohn hoy attesting it to be a true copy , wherein the petition is recited , and the time ; and it is set forth , that the courts of justice were not then open , that the petitioner being a stranger , it was not fit he should long attend . that the defendants denied the fraud charged : to which the plaintiff replied , the defendants rejoin , time given to examine witnesses , and a day for hearing set down . that at the hearing , it appears the said lady brake into her deceased husbands study , possest her self of the deeds and writings . that booky was sent over ( as might be conceived ) to circumvent the plaintiff . that getting him to her house , she contracted with him for l. before he knew of the value ; that understanding it to be worth l. he refused to proceed , and then the lady raised the price to l. that by not payment of a part of it , the bargain with mr. martin ( the cause of his treaty with the lady ) was disappointed . that the lady pretended an estate for life in the lands , when she had only an estate in part for years , if she lived so long , and no estate in other parts thereof , which the plaintiff knowing not of , could not suffer a praecipe quod reddat without her joyning , whereas being but lessee for years he might . that it appears by the deeds that the plaintiff intended not to sell the lands , for that he knew them not , as appeared by circumstances , which the order doth more particularly set down . that the criminal part should be reserved , to be made use of by the king's council ; that for the civil part , the said bargain was ordered to be void . that the fine not yet recorded , but remaining unreturned , shall be cancelled , if the plaintiff shall require it . and the lady to have only such estate as she had before , and no other . and both parties are hereunto to yield obedience , . november , . adam loftus chancellor , ormond , valentia , moore , dillon , sherley , lowther , wainsford , manwareing , tiringham , george ratcliffe . the manager opened the nature of the cause , observed the particular parts of the order , shewing , that there was a conveyance executed , a fine levied , though not returned by his order , no witnesses examined , though she denies the fraud , and arguments are made to convince her by observation of circumstances , and so concluded to overthrow a bargain in october before . that it is pretended to be when the courts of justice were shut , though it was heard in full term , . november , . the term there beginning as in england , but adjourned to the . of november , and the said order was contrary to the vote of the council-board . that when that bargain was overthrown , the lands were purchased by sir robert meredith and others for l. to the use of the earl of strafford , and he sold them back to the lady hibbots for l. that when this petition was preferred , thomas hibbots desired to be gone , and have his money ; applies himself to sir william parsons for advice , whether he might not withdraw his petition ; he sends him to sir george ratcliffe , sir george opposes it ; the petitioner goes to my lord of strafford , and he tells him , do not withdraw your suit , l. more in your purse will do you no hurt . iohn hoy was first produced as a witness , and sworn . my lord of strafford offered to their lordships consideration , that the witness is to have the inheritance of the lands , and so swears directly for himself . but the manager answered , that if he shall have the inheritance , his lordship knows the terms , he hath paid l. for it . and mr. maynard added , that if the decree were of force against him , it were something , but the land is since paid for ; and whether the decree be good or bad , he can neither lose nor win by it , for he comes in as a purchasor . yet my lord of strafford prest it , that the witness complained , and seeks relief against the decree . but the manager answered , it was for his mother , not for himself ; though upon my lord stewards demand , he confest he was the lady hibbots son , by a former husband , and that the inheritance is now in him . but my lord of strafford observed , if he can recover or l. upon his oath for his mother , it is well . and their lordships admitted him to be examined . he was asked , what he knew concerning the agreement between thomas hibbots and the lady hibbots , for the purchase of the reversion of the said lands , the tearms and times . he answered , with desire to use his notes , that thomas hibbots about . september continued two or three days in dublin , and then came to castlington , continued there a full day , and not a word spoken of the bargain . that the writings , whereby the estate was setled , were shewed him , the said thomas , and he read them . that being asked , whether he would have more satisfaction ; he said , he was satisfied ; being demanded whether he would live in ireland , and keep his estate ; he said , no , and that he would sell most of it . that the lady hibbots desired she might be preferred in the sale , having interest by joynture , and she conceived it for life ; and demanded what he would ask , that he answered , what she pleased above l. that being asked , whether he knew the land , he answered , he knew it , for some years before he was in ireland in sir thomas his life time , and a servant of his had shewed him the land. that she offered l. and he said , for l. she should have it , and so it was agreed . that she sent the deponent up for l. but the said thomas said , he would not use so much , and took only s. to bind the bargain . that on monday following they went to dublin to draw up articles to perfect the bargain , and two or three days were spent about it . that he the deponent tendered the articles , and he the said thomas excepted against the general warranty , which he desired might be amended , and then he would perfect them , and it was amended accordingly . that in the interim , the day before sir robert meredith went to him , and treated with him , offering , if he would break off , he the said sir robert would save him harmless , as thomas hibbots told him the deponent . that thereupon thomas hibbots flies off , and told him the deponent sir robert meredith offered him l. that thereupon he the deponent left the town , and went to his mother , and informed her of it . that before the breach of the bargain , he the deponent procured a subpaena , to sue the said thomas thereupon , and that the said lady coming to town with the deponent , the said thomas came to her , and being asked the reason , why he would break the bargain , he answered , sir robert meredith had offered so much , and she answering , that she would not give an under-value , because she would not have another get the reversion . he replied , that for l. she might have it , which she was content to give ; and the agreement was made . that the said thomas went immediately to sir robert meredith to give him an answer , and satisfied him ; that he the deponent met sir robert meredith coming out of his lodging , and challenged him of this unneighborly courtesie , who said , it is true , he was about it , but the lady hibbots had bid more than he , and wished her much joy of it . that the next day the articles for the l. were perfected , and a bond given for l. to make it up the sum of l. and this to be paid in england ( for there was no motion about land in england from the said thomas . ) that two days after he the said thomas went to iohn martin , who had a little estate , and treated for the estate , for which he was to give him l. that the said thomas came back to dublin , and tells the deponent of it , who had taken a course to exchange l. for him , and was to have near l. for exchange of it . that notwithstanding , on mr. hibbots return , he the deponent was content he should have it paid there . that soon after thomas hibbots acknowledged a fine , perfected a feoffment , and so passed all the estate that could be in himself . but the lady thought it could not be secure without a recovery ; for the said thomas had but one son , who had no son , and the life of the man is uncertain ; yet before that was desired , thomas hibbots saying mr. martin was willing to receive the money ; he the deponent appointed a day for receiving of it , and paid mr. martin l. giving bond for payment of l. . november , this being th of october . that he delivered mr. hibbots l. and procured a bill of exchange to be paid at nesson on sight l. that he took up the l. bond , entred into by his mother , and gave a bond for payment of l. at chester a day following . that the money being sealed up by mr. martin , it was left there that night , and the next day they were to go to the lady to enquire if they had sufficient security , and went accordingly , and carried the deeds along with them . that the ladies council told her , a recovery was necessary , which might be done the first day of the term. that he the deponent desired mr. hibbots to stay till the term , and offered to bear his charges , but he would not , winter growing on , and said plainly , he would not stay . that thereupon he the deponent served him with a writ he had prepared on the first bargain . that immediately the said thomas goes away to mr. sambridge , and informed him , that he had been often with him the deponent to break the bargain , and now is served with a writ , and therefore prayed him to draw a petition to my lord-deputy , which was drawn accordingly . to which the lady and deponent had time to answer till thursday : that the time was short , and there was a mistake in the answer ; for it was set forth that the lady had an estate for life , whereas she had an estate but for years , if she lived so long . that on this mistake discovered , my lord-deputy called for the constable of the castle , and commanded the clerk of the council to draw a warrant to commit their council , till the gentleman fell on his knees , and openly asked forgiveness . that then they could hardly get council to plead : that there was a reply and rejoynder . and in the interim mr. hibbots came to him the deponent , went to the master of the wards , and desired to be dismissed . that sir george ratcliffe appointed them to attend him , which they did . that sir george took mr. hibbots with him , and on sunday following the lord-deputy being informed of hibbots consent , on monday he sent for hibbots , and wishes him to go on with the suit , and asked him , what hurt it would do him to carry l. more to england . the next day being tuesday , there was no witnesses examined , though a time was appointed to examine them ; for the clerk of the council was busie , and could not attend it . that they desired hibbots might be examined , and they would be bound by his oath , and his lordship granted a warrant for it ; and mr. hibbots was almost examined , for on a council-day the order was given to the deponent . but that very afternoon my lord-deputy came to the council-board , and as soon as he was sate , spake to this effect ; here is a business concerning my lady hibbots , prosecuted with a great deal of violence that ever i knew , and an order procured for the examination of the plaintiff ; but if any such order be , or examination taken , i will have it damned ; and this is as much as he can speak . being asked , whether my lord of strafford did not threaten my lady hibbots with imprisonment , till she performed the order . he answered , that on the first of ianuary , after the decree , my lord-deputy sent to the lady hibbots house , to require her and him the deponent to attend him , which they did accordingly , and were called into his chamber , where was mr. sambridge of council with mr. hibbots , a sister of the deponents , he the deponent , and some others . that my lord-deputy asked them , why they would not perfect the re-assurance according to the order , to which the deponent offered some exceptions , drawn up by the council , alledging , that they could not possibly perform the words of the order , and that they might perform them as near as might be ; they shewed a course that might be observed , but my lord-deputy said , he would not be cavil'd withall , he would have the order of the board obeyed ; and since they juggle thus , his lordship said , he would have the orders drawn up , and tendered , and that if they will not perform them , he will commit them to the castle , where they shall lie a month , at that months end he will send for them to the council-board , and tender them again , and if they would not perform them , he will fine them l. and another months imprisonment , and then tender them again , and if they will not perform then , he will fine them l. and another months imprisonment , and so from time to time , till they had performed the orders of the board . being asked , whether these lands were not purchased in the name of sir robert meredith , and others , and to whose use ? he answered , that he hath the deeds of the land himself , and what the dates are he doth not remember . but he knows the lands were purchased in the name of sir robert meredith and others , but he cannot speak to whose use , but from sir robert meredith's own mouth , for when he the deponent paid l. to him , he the deponent was telling him the great advantage he made by this bargain . in truth , saith sir robert , the advantage is nothing to me , i receive it with one hand , and carry to the castle with the other . that the beginning of december last sir robert sent for this deponent , and told him , he heard he was coming over to complain of such a matter , but desired him the deponent not to trouble him , for he protested seriously , he had nothing to do with the business , his name was only used as sir philip persivals and sir robert loftus , it was meerly to my lord lieutenants use . the manager observed , that when their lordships have heard this , they will not wonder at the next witness they shall produce , that a supream judge should perswade to continue a suit , which he would have withdrawn ; and that notwithstanding the major part of the board was against the petitioner ▪ yet the order was drawn for the petitioner . mr. hoy being asked to the matter of the vote . he said , he was withdrawn when they gave their vote , but a noble member of the board came to his mother to supper , and named to him the deponent every man that voted for and against her , that he writ down their names at that time , and there were twelve votes for her , and nine against her ; that he the deponent was afterwards informed by another then at board , that the major part of the board went for his mother . thomas hibbots was sworn , and being asked , whether there was not a petition preferred to the lord-lieutenant there for breaking off the bargain between himself and the lady hibbots , and answered before he knew of it . he answered , having the questions dictated by the clerk , being an old deaf man : that he caused a petition to be drawn , but not this ; that this petition he knew nothing at all of ; that he wished a petition to be drawn by mr. sambridge , but it was only that he might have his money , and go into his country . being asked , whether , after the petition drawn and answered , he did go to sir william parsons , and desired to be quit of the suit , and that he went thereupon to sir george ratcliffe , and what passed ? he answered , he sent to sir william parsons , and he sent him to sir george ratcliffe , and sir george ratcliffe said , he should not be dismissed from the board . being asked , whether my lord of strafford did not send for him , and tell him l. more in his purse would do him no harm . he answered , it is true , my lord wished him to go on with his suit at the board , and that no man in ireland should do him wrong , and it would do him no harm to carry over l. more . being asked , what sir robert meredith said to him . he answered , that he would bring all the writings to him the deponent . being asked on my lord of strafford's motion , what fees he laid out . he answered , l. to mr. sambridge ; and the manager observed , he was preferred presently after the bargain was executed . being asked , what words were used to the lady hibbots . he answered , that my lord-deputy asked , will you not perform the order ; if not by such a day , i will send you to the castle , and there you shall lie a month , and at the months end you shall be brought to the board , and have l. laid on your head , and at another months end l. more fine , and you shall go back to the place again , and after that a third months imprisonment , and your fine increased ; your estate i know is very great , and if it were ten times bigger than it is , i will make it crack . to prove that the major part of the board was against the plaintiff . the lord mountnorris was asked , whether he was present at the council-table at that time when this cause was agitated , and which way the major part of the votes went at that time . he answered , he was there present , and the major vote went for the lady , and there were or , he cannot possibly say which ( though he took it then perfectly into memory ) on one side , and nine on the other side . the earl of corke asked to the same purpose . he first made an humble suit to their lordships , that he might not be produced as a witness against the prisoner . his reason is , that when he hath delivered a true testimony , my lord of strafford presently pursues him , and lays imputations and scorns upon him ; and therefore humbly prayed to be spared , else that he might have liberty to justifie himself . whence the manager observed , what it is to fall on witnesses persons extravagantly , when they produce them , and therefore desired my lord of strafford might forbear it , being a great disheartening to witnesses . my lord of corke added , that my lord of strafford accused him to have a pardon , whereas he knows he hath none . that he is an honest man , and wishes my lord of strafford could leave the kingdom with as much reputation as himself had left it . and for the matter demanded , his lordship said , he was at the hearing of the cause , and voted against the plaintiff ; but whether the major part voted against him or no , he knows not . being asked , what words my lord of strafford said about making a party in that cause . he answered , that he thinks he spake these words , he did not think there would have been a party against him , for if he had , he would not have brought it to that table , for the petition was preferred to himself . sir adam lofius being asked , what sir robert meredith told him of his part in the bargain . he answered , that he heard him say , he had no title or interest in it , but only his name used in trust , but for whom he did not declare , and that was all he said to him . the manager added , that they have another witness to prove that of the majority of the vote , my lord of ely , but he is sick . and so the manager summed up the evidence , and observed it to be something , that my lord of strafford should pitch upon the very sum of l. that mr. hibbots had by way of increase . that the order was made with an examination of witnesses , on pretence of fraud , where the lady denied it on oath , and that though it was so great a fraud in the lady to procure a reversion for l. which was sold for l. and afterwards re-sold to the lady for l. and so concluded that it is an arbitrary government , drawn into my lord of strafford's own breast , and the inheritance of a great estate taken from the king 's subject without rule of law , there being a fine levied , but being not retorned ( as the commissioners are bound to retorn it ) he made an order it should not be retorned , and a lady threatened with doubling and trebling the fine , and one of the feoffees , sir robert meredith , confesses it was for my lord of strafford . and to prove that , sir philip persival acknowledged so much . mr. fitzgarret was interrogated , what sir philip persival said , who thereupon answered , that sir philip had often told him , the purchase was to the use of my lord-deputy , now earl of strafford . that he hath had occasion of conference with him about the estate , and hath sometimes discoursed with him concerning the estate wherein his name was used . that he the deponent might understand how far it concerned him , telling him , that the estate would one day be questioned . and sir philip protested , he never knew of this business till his name was put into it , and he came to seal the writings , and that it was to the use of my lord-deputy . some questions arising about the number of hands to the order , being in all . the manager observed , that more have subscribed than those that gave their vote , being a cause introduced by my lord of strafford . that all subscribed the orders , as well those against them , as those for them , and appealed therein to my lord of cork . the course being , when an order is made , to bring it to the table another day , and take all the hands of them present ; and he added , that their lordships that are counsellors know that course to be used here . my lord of corke being asked to that point . answered , that he knows nothing of it . the lord primate of ireland his examination was offered , and was admitted accordingly to be read , being taken . march , . to the fourth inter. that when the major part of the council-board go one way , and the minor part another way ; when the order is drawn up , the minor part signs it as well as the major . the lord-deputy alledging it to be the practise of the council of england , and he himself had done it ; but before my lord of strafford's coming he never knew it to be so . lord renula being asked to the same point . answered , that he doth not remember that order to be of force there till of late years , and that my lord of strafford hath declared to them that it is the practise of england , and when the major part doth subscribe , though others be of different opinions , they are involved in it , and must subscribe . the lord savil desired he might be asked , whether he ever knew , that when the major part did vote against an order , they did subscribe it . the manager answered , that that 's their grief ; and though there be no such course , yet if it concern my lord of strafford , he will make it a course . lord renula being asked , whether he were present at the council-table when this vote was given , and what he heard concerning the vote . he answered , that he was not there , and he heard very little of it ; that the most he heard of it , was since the coming of this gentleman , mr. hoy , into england ; and that to his best remembrance he heard sir william parsons , now lord chief justice , say , he was informed the major vote went against sir robert meredith . and so the manager concluded the charge as to the eighth article , saying , that here is a proceeding for a free-hold , contrary to the fundamental laws of the kingdom , contrary to the instructions in the manner and measure as their lordships had heard . my lord of strafford , after some time given for the re-collecting of his notes , began his reply in substance as followeth : i will , with your lordships noble permission , justifie my self against the charge of high-treason exhibited against me . having been blamed by the gentlemen at the bar for going to matters not pertinent , i shall henceforth keep my self to that within the charge , trusting that the things wherewith i am not charged , shall not dwell with your lordships to my prejudice , but that your lordships will in your nobleness and justice reserve to your selves , till in its proper place and kind , i shall answer thereunto , conceiving that i am to answer only to treason , not to misdemeanor . the charge opened , is a decree given by the deputy and council of ireland , to the subversion of the fundamental laws , and to the bringing in of an arbitrary and tyrannical government . whether it be so or no , or whether by any manner of construction it can be brought as an argument to convince me of high-treason , i conceive i am to answer . whether the decree be in it self just or unjust , is not the question , but will come clearly to your lordships judgments upon the petition of the party when she shall sue for her right . and when it comes to be charged upon me as a misdemeanor , i shall give such an answer as befits me . there is nothing in this charge that can be interpreted treason , for it is but the exercising of a jurisdiction in the deputy , which he hath commission for from his majesty ; and the inlarging of a jurisdiction in a judg , i conceive , is not treason . the proofs formerly offered to prove the use and practise of the deputies ( which i need not repeat , your lordships being persons of great wisdom , and once said , always said , ) come to my help and assistance in my charge , the question being upon the same jurisdiction only , and that in one particular circumstance i conceive my self stronger in this cause than in that of my lord mountnorris . this case being of a petition preferred to me , but referred by me to be heard before the council-board ; and the witnesses say , that though they did not know nor remember , that the deputy himself heard causes alone , yet it was frequent for the deputy to receive petitions , and refer them to the board . so that i conceive i have exercised or done nothing , but according to the practise and customs of that kingdom , and consequently cannot be made use of as an argument that i subvert the fundamental laws , or bring in arbitrary or tyrannical government , when i step in the paths of my predecessors , and the practise of other men in the like cases . and that i say as to this point of jurisdiction . the next point i am charged with is , that the most part of the council-board voted against it ; whereas i say in my answer , the most part voted for it , and on that i most humbly insist still , and shall make it clearly appear to be so . for proof on the other side , they have only my lord mountnorris his testimony , who saies , they had against the order , and nine for it . and mr. hoy saith , that an honourable person that night told him , were for him and nine against him ; so it must all be one man , and one testimony . to prove the major part was for the decree , there was the order signed under the clerk of the council , a sworn minister , who could not draw it up without the plurality of voices , being against the constant practise of the board to do otherwise . that this was the practise , i desire my lord primate's examination may be read to the second , third , fourth , fifth and sixth interrogatories . those his examinations which were taken in the presence of the peers and commons , taken this morning , being admitted to be read , and the former taken in the absence of the members of the commons house , being declared to be suppressed . the said examinations were read accordingly . . to the second , he knows the use was to prefer petitions to all the chief governors that have been within these fifty years last , but what hath been thereupon he cannot say . this my lord of strafford observed is to the jurisdiction . . it is the received practise of that board , that the clerk of the council , being a sworn minister , should draw up the opinions according to the major part of the board . . that he hath not known the earl of strafford to have at any time urged or pressed any member of the board contrary to his own opinion . . that he hath heard him divers times profess he had but a single voice , and that matters were to pass according to the major part of the voices of the board . whence my lord of strafford observed , that the clerk of the council , being a sworn officer , is perjured , else the greater part of the board was against the lady hibbots . robert lord dillon being asked concerning the use of the board in the clerk of the councils drawing up orders , according to the major part of the votes , and what he had observed in this particular case . he answered , that the clerk of the council is a sworn minister of his majesty , and by duty of his place is to take notice of the votes , and accordingly to draw up the rough draughts of orders , and to present them to the board , to see whether they be to the sense of the major part of the votes . that he was present at the council-board when this cause was voted , but cannot say , upon his knowledge , it was drawn up according to the major part of the voices at the board , for he counted not the votes ; but that was an inducement to him to believe so , because the clerk of the council drew it up so ; and it is the order of the board , when the major part votes , those that dissent , in regard their votes are involved , do commonly sign , and that he had seen some sign to the order which had given vote against the decree . being asked severally how his vote passed in this order , and whether the major part did not vote it , whether my lord of strafford did not always submit his opinion to the major part , and whether in a case that concerned my lord renula , there were eight at the board , and four went one way , and four another , that my lord of strafford would not over-rule it , but called in another , and desired the whole business might be referred to him ; whether before my lord of strafford's restraint , this order was questioned on this point for want of the major part of voices , and whether at the signing of it , or any time after , he heard any councellor except against the order . his lorship answered , that he gave his vote for the decree , that he reckoned not the votes , but conceives the major part were for it ; that he remembers not my lord urging any man to vote contrary to his opinion , or over-ruled it , but was content to let it go : that he remembers not the contrary , but my lord submitted to the major part of the votes : that in the business betwixt my lord renula plaintiff and one ormesby , he remembers there were but eight men at the board , whereof my lord-deputy made one , and four fell on one side , and four on the other , and my lord renula was then present , as he takes it , though withdrawn at the instant , and for ought he knows my lord renula can say something to it . that when my lord gave his vote , he said , he would not take the priviledge of casting the cause , but left it to an absent counsellor , and which way soever he inclined , the cause should go ; and afterwards that councellor did vote against the opinion of my lord-deputy , and the order was drawn up so : that he never heard of any complaint of the order , nor heard of the business , till he came to the board : that he doth not remember any exception taken at the time of the signing the order , nor at any time after . sir philip manwareing being asked concerning the matter of the major part . answered , that he was present at the council-table , and his vote went for the decree , and he conceives the major part of the table did so too , he is very confident of it ; and he doth the rather believe it , because he never knew the contrary practise at that board in any case ; besides , he knows the clerk of the council is a very faithful and careful servant , being a sworn officer ; and it is the duty of his place to draw up orders according to the major part of the voices , and that no member of the board took exception at the signing of this order that he knows . for the matter of imprisoning the lady , my lord of strafford offered , that he hopes it 's no great offence for the deputy of ireland to say as much to a subject that 's bound to perform the order of the board , and doth not ; i ought not ( under favour , ) favour le ts in that case ; for if obedience be not had , it is to no purpose orders should be made . for the words concerning fining of her , i offer to your lordships confideration , that one that gives testimony thereof is mr. hoy , who is a party interessed , and to whom the benefit will accrue of whatsoever shall be recovered ; and that your lordships may remember what a ready story he told , and wronged his memory , to desire to speak out of his notes , for i never heard one speak more readily , and conceive he is not in this particular so intire a witness to convince me . that the other witness is mr. hybbots himself , a weak old man , that hath not judgment sufficient , but says forward and backward , and may be taken any way : therefore his testimony is not so strong and binding . that suppose i had said the words , they cannot make a treason ; fining in cases of contempts being usual in chancery here , to enforce men to conform to decrees . however , i stand not charged with it ; and when it comes in its proper place and time , i trust i shall make a fair and just answer in it . the last thing in the charge , is the conveying of the lands to sir robert meredith , and others , to my use , which i deny in my answer , and under favour , deny it still . for the witnesses offered , i except against mr. hoy , as i must , under favour , as often as i mention it . that the words spoken by sir robert meredith , is only his saying , and offered here as a report ; and when sir robert speaks for himself , i believe he will say another thing . that the testimony of mr. fitzgarrett , is but what sir philip percival said ; and when sir philip comes to be examined himself , i trust your lordships will find it otherwise , i having never spoke to sir philip in all my life , touching the business . when my lady hybbotts complains of the injustice of the decree , before your lordships , i hope i shall clear it in its proper place , but in the mean time it is no part of my charge ; and i dare say they would not offer such a thing in charge , to my lord keeper , or my lord chief justice ; or if they should offer it , they know they should have a rebuke ; for lawyers must keep within the limits of the charge ; and therefore in this particular , i may reserve my self , without prejudice in your lordships opinions , till it comes to its proper place ; where i hope i shall justifie my carriage to be honest and faithful , according to the trust reposed in me . his lordship having finished his defence , the manager began his reply thereunto , in substance as followeth . that he shall not need to labour much in making a replication , little being answered to the charge , which he recited and opened . that his lordships proceedings have in this matter been contrary to law , they must rest on their lordships memory , the act of parliament cited before , the instructions , and the proclamation , the exercise of a jurisdiction on the estate of a lady , without the least colour of jurisdiction ; whereas if there had been any , it would have been heard of . that his lordship answers nothing to his sending for the party petitioning , bidding him go on with the suit ; and prophesying , that he might have l. more : that perhaps it is not material , whether the order were just or unjust ; and my lord of strafford will answer only to the jurisdiction . but we observe , that yesterday he made a great flourish to the justness of a decree , let the jurisdiction be what it will ; and when he cannot justifie that , then he declines it . that my lord his pulse is still beating , that this is no treason , yet it is an article to prove and conduce to the general charge , of subverting the laws ; and though he pretends that these circumstances , of purchasing the lands to his own use , and speaking to the party to proceed , and his threats , are not to the purpose ; yet under favour these , and his saying , when he perceived a great part to vote against him , ( though not the major part , as he says ) that he could have kept it in his own hands , do come home to the point , that he hath exercised an arbitrary power , specially when it is for his own benefit . his pretence , that this cause was heard before the lords of the council , and therein differs from that of my lord mountnorris , is no answer at all ; for the lords of the council have nothing to do in matters of freehold or inheritance , when it concerns not plantation , or the church , or is specially recommended . that they concur with my lord primates examination , that the clerk of the council should draw up orders according to the major part of the votes ; but what he hath done in this case , they know not ; and how far a deputy might prevail with the clerk of the council , they submit : and there is an express proof of one of the counsellors , that there was . or . against the order , and nine for it . and whereas it is said , he is but a single witness , my lord of corke says , though he remembers not which way the major voice went , yet he remembers very well my lord deputy exprest those words , concerning the making of a party ; which shews , that something was done that did not agree with his will : and another witness says , that sir william parsons told him , that the major vote was against the order . and whereas my lord strafford pretends , that the privy-counsellor that told mr. hoy , there were more voices for his mother than against her , must be my lord mountnorris , that is denied ; and we desire mr. hoy may in that point explain himself . he hath called sir philip maynwaring , and others , that would have testified the truth to his advantage ; but not one of them expresses any thing to their knowledge , but as they believe it ; because by the duty of his place , the clerk of the council ought to have drawn it up according to the votes . the threats to imprison and fine the lady ; and the kind of threats are proved by two witnesses , with this addition by one , that he would crack her estate ; which shew a great fervency in my lord of strafford to have the order performed ; and why should he be so earnest , if he had not had some game to play afterwards . if the conveyance had not been to his own use , my lord of strafford would have provided his testimony ; it being proved in whose name it was , and both they affirm it to be for the use of my lord of strafford . mr. hoy being asked , whether the counsellor who told him how the votes passed , was my lord mountnorris or no ; he answered , that sir iames erskyn , since dead , gave him a note of the names : and that the lord arch-bishop of dublin told him presently after , the vote went on his mothers side . mr. palmer observed , that the lord of strafford draws an argument , that because there was no complaint of the order , therefore there was no mistake ; and desired mr. hoy might be asked , why he made no complaint . mr. hoy being accordingly asked ; answered , that he was ready to come for england , and to take ship , and that evening he went to the master of the court of wards , to take his leave of him , and to acquaint him with his going . that sir paul davis being there , he and the master of the wards , desired him to walk into the study , and perswaded him against his going , telling him of my lord deputies great power ; and that he might as well run his head against a rock , as have any remedy against my lord strafford , as the times go now ; and this was very soon after the decree , and as he conceives , between it and christmas following . being asked , whether sir paul davis shewed him the order , and whether it was interlined ; and by whose hand : he answered , that he was at the clerk of the council to have got a copy of the order , and saw the order interlined with a strange hand ; and asking whose it was , sir paul told him , it was my lord deputies . here my lord of strafford observed , that it is very ordinary for the clerk of the council to bring orders to the deputy , who if he sees cause , mends them . sir dillon being asked , whether any that voted in my lady hybbots case , did tell him which way the major part of the votes in my lady hybbots case went ; he answered , that a little before his coming out of ireland , speaking of the charge against my lord of strafford , and particularly of this cause , one or two of the privy-council said publickly , the major part of the council was for my lady hybbots . to this last part my lord of strafford answered , with a desire that the witness might be asked , whether justice parsons be not father-in-law to mr. hoy ; and that this was since his my lord of straffords questioning . and so the th article was concluded , being his exercise of an arbitrary power over the estates of his majesties subjects ; though they have divers other instances , as in the case of the earl of ely , and my lord of killdare , the prime earl of that kingdom . the ninth article . the charge . that the said earl of strafford , the sixtéenth day of february , in the twelfth year of his majesties reign , assuming to himself a power above , and against law , took upon him by a general warrant under his hand , to give power to the lord bishop of downe and connor , his chancellor , or chancellors , and their several officers thereto to be appointed , to attach and arrest the bodies of all such of the meaner and poorer sort , who after citation , should either refuse to appear before them , or appearing , should omit , or deny to perform , or undergo all lawful decrées , sentences and orders , issued , imposed , or given out against them , and them to commit , and kéep in the next goal , until they should either perform such sentences , or put in sufficient bail , to shew some reason before the council-table , of such their contempt and neglect ; and the said earl , the day and year last mentioned , signed and issued a warrant to that effect ; and made the like warrants to several other bishops , and their chancellors , in the said realm of ireland , to the same effect . mr. glyn opened the ninth article , charging my lord of strafford with assuming of a power above law , in granting of a general warrant to the bishop of downe and conner , to attach such persons of the meaner sort as should not appear on their citation , to apprehend their bodies , and bring them before the council ; an act so high , that higher could not be , unless it extended to life , as my lord mountnorris his case ; to grant a warrant at pleasure contrary to law , to apprehend the bodies of his majesties subjects , that live under the protection of the law ; which if it be made good , will be of great might , and prove the charge fully . a copy of the warrant being produced , my lord of strafford excepted against it , as not to be read , by the proceedings of the court , being not the original . to which the council at the bar answered , that that 's the way to shelter any crime , if none but the original warrants in such cases should be admitted ; it being no record that they may repair to it . and their lordships being desired that a witness might be heard , what he can say for the attesting of it ; after which , it will be proper for their lordships to judge of the copy . sir iames mountgomery sworn , and asked whether he saw the original warrant ; and whether this be a true copy . he answered , he can depose , that he hath seen the original warrant , and read it ; and that the bishop of derry did shew it himself . that this copy , he believes , both in matter and words , to be a true copy ; for he hath another copy agreeing with this ; and that he knows this warrant hath been put in execution many times ; and he himself hath been charged to assist them that have put it in execution , by virtue of this warrant . thereupon the warrant was read ; being in effect as followeth . by the lord deputy . forasmuch as we have been informed by the right reverend father in god the lord bishop of downe and conner , that the most frequent offences against god , and the greatest contempts against the ecclesiastical jurisdiction , are committed by the meaner and poorer sort of people in that diocess ; whose faults , for the most part , escape unpunished , by reason the writ de excommunicato capiendo , is so long before it can be sued forth , and executed on them , that they remove to other parts , and cannot be found ; or if they be taken , their poverty is such , that they cannot satisfie the sheriff , and other officers fees , due for taking them on that writ ; whereby the officers become negligent , and backward of doing their duties . we therefore desiring the suppression of sin , and reformation of manners , have thought fit to strengthen the ecclesiastical authority of the said right reverend father in god , the lord bishop of downe and conner , with our secular power , and do therefore hereby give power and authority to the said lord bishop , his chancellor or chancellors , by their several officers by them to be appointed , to arrest and attach the bodies of all such of the meaner and poorer sort , that after citation , shall refuse to appear before them , or appearing , shall omit or deny to perform and undergo all lawful decrees , sentences and orders , issued , imposed , and given out against them , and them so arrested to commit , and keep in the next goal , till they shall perform such sentences , or put in sufficient bond , to shew some reasons before the council-table of such their contempts , &c. willing all justices of the peace , &c. in that diocess , to be aiding , &c. as they , &c. given , &c. febr. . . tho. little. mr. glyn opened the several parts of the warrant , and offered , that it was expresly against law , putting their lordships in mind of the former words , that he would make an act of state equal to an act of parliament : but now he is better than his word ; for he will make an act of state higher than an act of parliament : for whereas by the law , no subject of the kings , in any ecclesiastical court , may be taken till he be cited ; and then on disobedience , he is excommunicated ; and on excommunication , there is a writ called , capias excommunicatum , by virtue of which he is apprehended . now my lord of strafford issues a warrant to take him , if he appear not on citation , breaking through the law , and making no matter of that , but he will make a law that extends to the liberty of the subject . and if this had never been put in execution , it had been all one to the purpose of the commons ; for this shews how , being intrusted with the kings law in ireland , he discharges that trust. but for execution , they desired witnesses might be heard . sir iames mountgomery being asked , how this warrant was executed ; and the kings subjects used under colour of his authority : he answered , that he hath seen several warrants that have issued under the hand of the bishop of downe's chancellor , sometimes to the constables , sometimes to his own apparitors , with their assistance for to apprehend the persons under-named ; that there have sometimes twenty , sometimes thirty , sometimes more , sometimes less names , been put in the warrant . that he hath known them executed with great cruelty , sometimes wounding , beating , imprisoning them . being asked on my lord of straffords motion , how long since he knew any thing done upon that warrant : he answered , since the time of the warrant granted ; and he thinks the warrant bears date february . till of late , much about this time twelve-month , which was the last time he was charged himself , to be assistant to the execution of it . that he heard the bishop of derry had taken up the warrants in sommer last , on many and frequent complaints that had come ; and had withdrawn it from the bishop of downe about iuly last . the manager closed this article , observing , that my lord of strafford not only takes this power , but gives it over to others ; and see how they do execute it over the kings subjects ; knights , and men of eminency must be called to assist ; and therefore it was high time to accuse my lord of strafford of subverting the laws of ireland . and so expected his lordships answer . my lord of strafford began his defence , in effect as followeth . such warrants have been usually granted to the bishops of ireland , in times of all former deputies . but not satisfied with the convenience thereof , i refused to give such warrants generally , as was formerly used . being informed that divers in the bishoprick of downe gave not fitting obedience , i gave this warrant , being the only warrant of this kind that i granted ; and hearing complaints of the execution of it , i called it in again . they have produced only a copy of the original warrant , and what words may be omitted that 's in the original , god knows ; and i think , under favour , it would not be an evidence at the kings-bench bar. and this stands with the practice of former deputies , to grant such warrants of assistance to the bishops . the lord primate of ireland , his examination read . to the th interrogatory , that he remembers his immediate predecessor in the bishoprick of meath told him , he had a warrant of assistance from the then lord deputy , who was either the lord chichester , or the lord grandison ; that the recusants in his diocess desired it might be so , for the saving of those charges which would come on them by the writs de excommunicat ' capiendo . robert lord dillon , being asked whether he had known formerly such warrants to be granted , and by whom . he answered , he hath heard writs of assistance have been granted by former deputies , but he remembers not that ever he saw any . mr. tho. little being asked , whether this warrant was granted according to former presidents : he answered , that he hath seen one of the original warrants before my lords coming there ; and that it was brought to him to draw another by ; and going to instance in some copies seen in my lord of faulklands book of entries , the manager excepted against him , for medling with a book formerly over-ruled . mr. little proceeds , that he hath seen an original warrant by which this was drawn , and it was under my lord of faulkland's hand ; and this was made according to that pattern . being asked , whether my lord of strafford did not restrain , and give direction to him not to issue any other warrant of that nature : he answered , there was no more made but this , though divers required them , my lord forbidding him at all times afterwards . my lord of strafford offered his humble request to their lordships , that in all things that concern the irish charge , they will please to remember , it was not possible for him to procure any witnesses in this short time of his trial , having not liberty till friday was seven night ; these things being notorious , and might have been cleared if he had had time . he added , that whether this be a true copy of the warrant or no , i cannot tell , but likely enough it is . that it was moved for by the bishop of downe and connor , to whom , for some reasons , i was willing to grant it ; but being afterwards told by sir george ratcliffe , that he doubted whether it was legal or no , i called it in again , and never granted any but this . that ( as appears in the proof ) i sent to the bishop of derry , and desired him to call in the warrant , and so he did long before this complaint : and thence i infer , that it could not argue my intention to break the same . whereas the gentleman at the bar said , that i had been better than my word ; for i had said , an act of state should be as good as an act of parliament ; but here i made an act of state better than an act of parliament . i observe , that he is willing to make me better than my word , when it may be for my disadvantage ; but is willing to make me worse than my word , when by disproving me , he may hurt me . that therefore it befits me to do as well as i can for my self in this case ; yet not to take it amiss from the gentleman , who doth but his duty . finally , i conceive it not treason in me to follow the president and practice of those which have gone before me , which though it be not altogether so legal , yet i hope it is not treasonable . nor is it treason to mistake the law ; if it should , there would be more actions of treason than trespass in westminster-hall ; for i think few understand it , i do not i am sure . and so i hope this shall never rise up in judgment against me in its self , or as a concurrent argument towards treason . mr. glyn replied , in substance as followeth : what my lord of strafford is charged with , he confesses to be an authority above law ; and that it is not justifiable . yet he would justifie it by the practice of his predecessors , wherein the examination of my lord primate , offered for proof thereof , aggravates the offence , the warrant therein mentioned , being procured at the request of the papists ; and perhaps it might be so now : but the protestants have been oppressed by it . that was to save the charge of a capias excommunicatum , which was the process issued upon excommunication ; but by this warrant they must be taken on the citation , down-right club-law , having in similitude the civil law. that his own secretary that made the warrant , and is as guilty as himself , tells of a president , according to which he made this ; therefore the copy produced is a true copy , else he says not truth . that whereas his lordship says it is a single act , and as soon as he had notice of the illegality of it , he recalled it , and therefore it should not be laid to his charge : indeed if it were a single act , this answer might be taken ; but when in the case of my lord of corke , his inheritance was to be determined , and desired the benefit of the law , did my lord of strafford suffer the course of law to go on : now when he is pleased to make an excuse for himself , he calls it in ; but when in matter of life and inheritance concerning peers , right is demanded , he denies it . if this single act be compared with other exorbitant proceedings , we refer it to your lordships wisdom and justice , whether it be not a strong evidence to prove his subverting of the laws . after some discourse touching their proceeding on with the th article , for that the same would hold long , the day far spent , and my lord cottington and sir arthur ingram , material witnesses for my lord of strafford , ( as he alledged ) were absent ; for whose examination his lordship desired a commission , their lordships adjourned the house . the ninth day . wednesday , march . . the tenth article . the charge . that the said earl of strafford being lord lieutenant , or deputy of ireland , procured the customs of the merchandise exported out , and imported into that realm , to be farmed to his own use . and in the ninth year of his now maiesties reign , he having then interest in the said customs ( to advance his own gain and lucre ) did cause and procure the native commodities of ireland , to be rated in the book of rates for the customs , ( according to which the customs were usually gathered ) at far greater ualues and prices , than in truth they were worth , ( that is to say ) every hyde at twenty shillings , which in truth was worth but five shillings ; every stone of wool at chirtéen shillings four pence , though the same were really worth but five shillings , at the utmost nine shillings ; by which means the custom , which before was but a twentieth part of the true value of the commodity , was enhanced sometimes a fifth part , and sometimes to a fourth , and sometimes to a third part of the true value ; to the great oppression of the subjects , and decay of merchandise . mr. maynard proceeded to the th article , saying , they had shewed what my lord meant to do , what he threatned , what he did concerning the lives of his majesties subjects , what advantages he found to order their tongues , to cut off their heads ; but he rested not there , their lordships have heard how he executed one without law ; the subsequent articles were under colour of law , to take away the subjects lands , to distribute them in a way of justice ; and yet they come to his own profit . now the th article charges him , that he did procure to farm to his own use , the customs of ireland , that he inhanced those customs , procured a book of rates to be made , and goods valued treble to the worth of the commodity ; instancing in two particulars , wools worth s. the stone , or at most nine , rated up to s. d. and a hyde valued at s. which was in truth worth but s. that these high values were put upon them to increase the customs . that my lord of strafford in his answer , pretends it not to be done for his own benefit , but for the advantage of his majesty , and gives some colours , which are left to himself to open and prove . that they shall prove the fact to be done for his own advantage , to the great deceit and disadvantage of his majesty . the case was stated thus . his majesty king iames did , in the th year of his reign , lease to the duke of buckingham , the customs of ireland for years : in which lease there were exceptions and agreements of defalcations , as the custom of wines , which were leased to my lord carlisle , at the rent of l. per annum to the crown ; and on this lease was reserved l. a year rent , and half the clear profits above the rent ; which half did amount to l. a year . there was a second lease made to the dutchess of buckingham , being in the time of car. who was to have a certain sum out of the lease , but the profit was for my lord of strafford and his partners . mr. maynard observed the difference of the two leases ; and shewed , that it was not only a bargain of loss to his majesty , of what he had , but also a bargain by way of advancement of that which was not by inhancing the values . which he demonstrated thus ; the king out of the first lease to the duke l. and l. that is , l. by the latter lease l. so at first view , l. gain , besides the fine pretended to be paid ; but in lieu thereof , the lease to my lord of carlisle was procured to be surrendred , upon which the king had l , a year rent , before the dutchess , that is now my lord of straffords lease , was sealed ; which l. a year , is not reserved in the said latter lease , the surrender being mar. the demise mar. so that l. a year is swept away by my lord of strafford , instead of the l. by way of advance . besides the surplusage of the profit of the farm of wines , demised to my lord of carlisle , amounted to l. a year ; sometimes an odd l. sometimes l. but communibus annis , it was above l. and this being by surrender , drawn into my lord of straffords purse , but out of the kings purse , and that not only by way of gift ; for this surplusage above the l. per annum on the wines , was to be made good out of the l. so that out of the l. there is drawn from his majesty l. instead of an advance of l. and it rests not here , for besides these , the customs of london derry , and colerane , worth l. a year , and the customs of knockfergus and strangford , ( reserved in the dukes lease ) are stollen out by way of defalcation in the earl of straffords lease . besides , whereas the duke of buckingham had a moiety of the kings moiety , of all seizures in case of mens concealing custom , or landing goods at unseasonable times , the statute allowing to his majesty in some such cases a moiety , in some cases the whole , my lord of strafford by his lease , must have all that belonged to the king. and whereas the duke of buckingham had , for merchants goods that came in by way of prize , an allowance of custom . by the lease of my lord of strafford , whether they be the kings goods , or his subjects , custom must be paid by his majesty , to his own subjects . mr. glyn observed also a strange clause in the new grant ; which is to the matter of opposition and subversion of the laws , that this grant shall hold , whether it be repealed by parliament or not : and further , the rates are inhanced when they come to my lord of straffords grant , in particulars ; so that the customs which at that time were presented as worth l. a year , fall out on proof to yield , seldom less than . sometimes near l. a year ; all which gain hath gone out of the kings purse , and is in my lord of straffords , and his partners . the lease made to the duke of buckingham was first read , as to the grant , the render , and the defalcations , dat. may , car. the lease to the dutchess of buckingham was next read , dated mar. car. from the several parts whereof , mr. maynard observed the inhancing of the rates ; the grant of the wines , the payment of the customs for the kings prize-goods , the clause touching the repeal by parliament , the defalcations , the allowing the part of the kings moiety of the seizures , so formerly opened , to be fully manifested . in this lease there is l. consideration by way of fine , and rent received . the grant of the surplusage of the profit of wines to the earl of carlisle above the said l. per annum rent , for the remainder of fifteen years , was read . wherein is recited the original grant under the said yearly rent of l. and the surrender thereof to the crown , martii , car. they proceed to prove the values . and first , witnesses were produced to prove , that by the duke of buckinghams lease , l. per annum , was answered to the crown for the moiety of the surplusage of profits , over and above the l. yearly rent thereupon observed . the lord ranulagh being asked to that point , answered , that he was a partner in the farm in the time of my lord of faulklands government in ireland , and on the lease there was reserved to the king , over and above the l. a surplusage of the profits , which came to l. to prove the value of the wine-customs above the l. rent , reserved on the earl of carlisles lease , which was to be answered to the earl of carlisle , out of the l. sir iames hey sworn and interrogated to that point . answered , that in . the late earl of carlisle sent him into ireland , to settle his affairs there , where he stayed almost months ; and then he received a years account of the wines , which he hath to produce under the hand of the auditor of that kingdom , which is the money received for the profit of the wines . the accompt was read , viz. a collection of what the impost of wines amounted to , according to the old rates for the year ended , march . in the several parts following , wherein all wines discharged out of forraign bottoms , are rated as strangers , viz. the total , l. s. d. sterl . out of which the sum of l. the rent formerly reserved to his majesty out of the said impost defalked , there will remain l. s. d. sir iames hey further said , that . my lord of carlisle dyed , and he will not depose for that years accompt , but he conceives it is an accompt sent over from the same party : and that he had a letter from an officer of the custom-house at dublin , wherein he mentioned the impost to amount to l. and upwards , either . or . but he is not certain which . to prove the value of the defalcations of london derry and colerane . robert goodwyn sworn ; being asked what the customs of london derry and colerane amounted to communibus annis : he answered , that the customs received in the town of colerane , in-gate and out-gate , from mar. . till mar. . being for the space of five whole years , as appears by the several accompts thereof , is l. s. d. ½ . that the total of the customs of london derry , where he collected himself in-gate and out-gate , from the last of febr. . till michaelmas . as appears by the several accompts thereof made by his majesties commissioners for the city and county of london derry , is l. s. d. that he shall acquaint their lordships with the full truth . these were not collected according to the book of rates , but at an under value . that all the book of rates . and so forward to the last book , do value beef at l. a tun. but because beef is sold in derry and colerane , for or l. a tun at utmost ; therefore he was directed by the city of london to take s. after the rate of l. then for hydes , these books of rates value a hyde at s. and where he should have taken d. he received by direction of the city but d. at the infancy of the plantation , and for the good of the place , which the city tendred . henry brawd sworn , and examined to the same matter , answered , according to the deposition of robert goodwyn , for the value of the customs of colerane and london derry . to prove the value of the farms in ireland . iohn welsh sworn , and examined to that point . answered , that he can speak nothing of knowledge , but only by hear-say . to prove the value of the customs , as increased on the new book of rates . robert cogan sworn , and examined to that point . answered , that he never cast them up in particular , but he did estimate them before they took the farm to be worth or l. a year . here on my lord of strafford's motion , mr. cogan was asked , where he now lives . he answered , in london . to prove the increase of customs , , , . iohn welsh examined to that point . answered , that he was directed from the committee to come hither : that he went into the exchequer-office , and took notice of some books there , presented to him by one of the officers of the house , and he collected these four years , , , , and . and as they came to his hands he put them down , . they came to l. . l. . l. . l. being asked concerning the value of hydes , wooll , and tallow . he answered , that he knew the values very well , being commodities he deals in daily : that he hath bought hydes for s. some s. some s. and very few exceed these rates . and in their parts they ordinarily give l. a last , which is hydes , and then they have ordinarily or hydes on the last to make them full hydes . for wooll there is of s. s. s. s. s. and that 's the highest price he ever paid , or knew any of his neighbours to pay , he living in waterford . whence mr. maynard observed , that a hyde of s. is rated at s. and s. the uttermost for wooll , rated at s. d. lord renula being interrogated to the value of the customs , , , and . he answered , that all he knew of it is this , about christmas last he called on the remembrancer of the office of exchequer , that keeps the books of the customs , he desired a note of the value of the customs for three or four years back , and the officer gave him a note , , , , which note he hath , but forgot to bring it with him this morning . but to the best of his remembrance the value of the customs for these years is thus , . either . or l. and some odd hundreds , . l. and odd , . is the greatest year , and then it was l. and . l. patrick allen sworn , and examined to the value of hydes and wooll in ireland . answered , that he hath bought hydes at s. s. d. s. and s. the most that ever he knew any pay for hydes ; for wooll there is a course irish wooll not worth s. some is worth s. some . s. s. but s. is the most that ever he knew paid for wooll . and so mr. maynard closed the article , and left it to their lordships consideration , what the king hath left , what profit my lord of strafford hath received . to which my lord of strafford made defence , in substance as followeth : i shall , under favour , proceed to make a just defence of my self , as to this impeachment of treason brought against me by the honourable house of commons , for that is the thing in question , and which i shall only answer unto , as being charged with nothing else . i desire i may read the charge , and then your lordships will see how pertinently the time hath been spent in the proving of it . he reads his charge as to the tenth article . with humble submission to your lordships great judgments , i conceive there is nothing in this charge , that can by any law that ever i heard of , be brought to be treason . these gentlemen have told your lordships what his majesty lost by a contract with the dutchess of buckingham , which i conceive concerns not in me at all , being no party to it . if the dutchess , by her grant of . march , car. had more priviledge than the duke of buckingham had for the years preceding ; yet by their own shewing here is l. fine , and an increase of l. a year rent , so that there was a consideration for it . that these twelve commodities were raised , and the values inhanced on that consideration . march , car. but the lease wherein himself was partner bears date . april after ; so that the book of rates was not raised by me , but by them that had care of the business between the king and the dutchess of buckingham : and this being set by the king's officers , to whom it was proper , in the th year of the king , it falls very short of what is charged in the article , that i should do it in the th year of his majesties reign . if they can shew a book of rates raised the th , it may be said he hath raised the book for his advantage , for then he had a quarter part of the farm , and the king hath ⅝ parts to himself ; and these things have been tumbled and tossed over and over again , and fully answered in another place , and i shall be well able to answer it still , that the king hath had as great a service done in this particular , as may be in this matter . but that is not the question of the day . i am charged with raising a book of rates in the th year of the king , and if there be any such book , it is more than i ever saw , i know of none but that which was setled in my lord of portland's time , before i had any interest in the farm , which i think will go far to my clearing in this point . whether these rates be indifferently set or no , is a business for merchants , and matter of proof , and if it should be charged on me as a crime , i hope your lordships will allow me time to examine witnesses , and likewise council . but i conceive it can be no way conducing to me as a crime , and as a treason i think your lordships judgments will clear me , and that 's my answer as to the book of rates , and i think a clear one . for the values , your lordships may be pleased to consider , that it may be a loss to the farmer , and consequently to the king , who hath five parts of eight . but it can be a crime to no body , and i hope your lordships will give time to prove the point of value . your lordships may suppose i know not the price of hides , and wooll and tallow , being out of my calling ; but their worth will appear to be such , that the duty is but taken according to the articles of tunnage and poundage , that give this duty to the crown . for tunnage and poundage in ireland is of another kind than in england , for here it is given temporally , but it is an inheritance to the crown in ireland , being h. . given to the king and his heirs ; and producing the book of rates , his lordship said , that nothing is taken but what is justly due by that book . and if merchants ( who speak for their own advantage ) be rested on for the price of things , the customs will be little . but this book of rates was set by the lord treasurer that then was , and justly and fairly i think , and accordingly customs have been taken ; and when it shall be laid to my charge in a proper way , i shall give such satisfaction , as to clear my self of the least fraud or deceipt to my master , and in the mean time i know your lordships are so just , as not to prejudice me in this matter . i will now shew how i came into the business of farming the customs , not voluntarily , or upon my suit , nor did i ever intend it , but was commanded and enforced to it , and came in meerly for the doing of the king a service ; and if it prove a bargain of advantage , i never knew the making of a good bargain turned on a man as treason . it was justly , fairly , and honestly procured , and prove it never so beneficial , that can never make it a crime . his majesty hath been from time to time acquainted with the increase of this business most exactly and truly , it rising indeed beyond all imagination ; the customs , when we entred on them , being but l. per annum , and now your lordships see what is proved , and may judge with what truth they inform , in the remonstrance , out of ireland , that trade is decayed . on their own shewing , by the testimony of my lord renula , and others , it appears , that when they were farmers , there was l. paid to the king , and a devident of the other moity , which came to l. so the whole value of the customs was then l. his lordship desired that my lord cottington might be asked a few questions . lord cottington being asked , whether in the seventh year of the king there was not a bargain concluded by the late lord treasurer , the earl of portland , with captain williams , captain henshawe , and others , for the customs of ireland , paying l. rent , and l. fine . his lordship answered , that he conceives my lord of portland rested satisfied , that he had made that bargain for the rent and fine , and that he so understood it , as to acquaint his majesty with it , and understood it to be a very good bargain . being asked , whether did not williams afterwards relinquish the bargain . his lordship answered , that he well remembers he did refuse it , and he thinks he refused it , because henshawe was the chief man in it , and he died , and thereupon williams flew off . and that my lord of portland was very much troubled , because williams , and the rest fell off , as he remembers . being asked , whether after they had given it over , any body would give so much as they offered . he answered , he thinks there was no body that came near it , at least he never heard so . being asked , whether after it was so left , it was not undertaken by sir arthur ingram , and his partners , on the very tearms that williams refused it , paying only l. a year more rent . he answerd , it is very true , sir arthur ingram , and divers partners , by his procurement , paid l. more rent , and , as he takes it , the same fine , but for a quicker time ; for the first men were to have time , and sir arthur ingram was to pay it all in ready money . my lord of strafford here added , that henshawe , and the rest , having given over the bargain , himself went to my lord at rohampton , and found that these other partners that had it afterwards , would undertake the farm , if he the earl of strafford would be a partner with them , which was a thing he never intended , but refused . therefore on his lordships motion lord cottington was further asked , whether being moved by my lord of portland to come into the farm , he the earl of strafford did absolutely tell my lord of portland , that he would not meddle therewith , not knowing how it would be interpreted ; that he being the king's deputy should be a farmer . his lordship answered , that he well remembers my lord of portland did conceive that to draw in these later farmers ; it was very necessary , and all the succor they had to have my lord of strafford a partner in it ; because they conceived they should thrive in the bargain , if he , having so great a power , were a partner ; so it lay on my lord of portland to perswade him to yield to it ; and my lord of portland told him , that if my lord of strafford would do the king that service , he should not lose by it . and though my lord of strafford was unwilling to come in for a part , yet at last he did , and his coming in , drew in the rest , as he the lord cottington thinks . and further , that my lord portland told the king of it , and prepared the king to command him for the making of the bargain , depending on his taking of a part . my lord of strafford here observed , that he humbly conceived the goodness and grace of the king , and the love of my lord of portland , was such at that time , that they would not have brought him into a business that should be laid to his charge as treason . lord cottington being , on mr. maynard's motion , asked about the time , whether it was car. his lordship answered , that he must refer himself to the grant , for the lease my lord of strafford shewed did follow immediately after . sir arthur ingram being , on my lord of strafford's motion , examined to divers of the points before proposed to the lord cottington . he answered , he conceives there was a bargain made by my lord treasurer and my lord cottington , with williams and henshawe for l. a year , and , as he conceives , l. fine , and this was under their hands in writing , as he heard . that he knew nothing that my lord of strafford was to be a partner , or to have any interest in it . that he conceives williams did clearly refuse it after henshawes death , what other reasons he had he knows not ; that he cannot tell , nor doth remember , that my lord of strafford used means to perswade williams to stand to that bargain ; but certainly williams was perswaded much by my lord of portland . being asked , whether it was so left by williams , did not he and his partners undertake the farm ? he answered , that he was several times offered to come into that farm , and from time to time refused it : that williams pressed him exceeding much , and others before him ; and he was moved to it by one cogan , but refused it . that the truth is , his son arthur ingram was partner in it , and there came in my lord mountnorris , sir george ratcliffe , and one cogan , that they laboured much he should take the farm , and he had much ado to be brought in . being asked , whether these came in upon the same tearms offered to williams . he answered , it will appear on the warrant to the then attorney , sir robert heath , that they paid l. rent , and l. fine ; and whereas the officer should have paid it at six and six months , these were to pay ready money . being asked , whether he had moved my lord of strafford to be a partner in it . he answered , that he doth not remember he ever said so , but it might much encourage him to come in , if my lord of strafford were a partner . but he the examinant had no such great cause to desire it , for he was not in three years , but his son was put out again ; when it came to matter of profit they were gone . to this my lord of strafford , did by the way , answer in substance , that his majesty gave consideration for it , and had the benefit himself . and so , i hope , i have cleared how i came into the bargain , and that i cannot be charged with procuring the book of rates , it being printed . march , and my lease began april after , and that the right being in the crown , your lordships will not conclude it , till you have heard it for the king , it being his loss in ⅝ parts , which was intirely his. and whereas i am charged with raising the book of rates ( though done before my time ) yet i was taught here in england that they might have been raised to a much higher rate than they were , and to that purpose there came a letter from his majesty , whereby in . a proposition was made of raising the rates , the book being conceived not to be so high as it ought to be . his majesties letter was read , mr. slingsby affirming it to be a true copy , and that he saw it compared with the original . imparting , that his majesty finding the impositions set , on merchandize of all ports , to be well accepted , and to have ready and free passage , had resolved , that such impositions be laid in ireland as be fit for that kingdom , and to that end had caused a book to be drawn , with fit considerations of the difference of trade in both kingdoms , which was sent to my lord of strafford , to advise of the particulars , who , if he found that any may bear a greater proportion , he may add what he will ; if he find any over-rated , he may deliver his reasons to be considered , and regulated by his majesties committee here , dated the th of iuly , . my lord of strafford observed , that at the date of this letter , he had an interest in ¼ part of the farm , and desired that my lord dillon might be asked , how my lord of strafford carried himself in it . lord robert dillon being asked , whether my lord of strafford did not join with the council to disswade it . he answered , that he was at the board when the original of this letter was read , as he takes it , for there was brought with it a book of rates , that he remembers not the particular words of my lord of strafford ; but he is sure , by the whole board , the entertainment of those rates was dis-advised . and it was resolved a letter should be written to dis-advise it ; but he remembers not when the letter was written . whence it may be observed , that i was not very tender of my own profit , which laid to the other , i hope , will clear me of this article , wherein there is nothing of treason ; and nothing can be imputed to me , unless that the kingdom of ireland is under the king 's blessed government , an increased and growing kingdom , and the trade enlarged to such a proportion as makes the customs of far more value than they were heretofore , should be turned on me as a crime . and as for treason , your lordships see no complexion towards so foul a crime , and for all things that may reflect on me as misdemeanors , in due time and place , i trust , i shall clear my self from that as well as i do from this charge of high-treason . mr. maynard replyed thereunto in substance as followeth : that whereas my lord of strafford says , that to prove the matter of profit to himself , of loss to his majesty , is impertinent : they charge , that what he did was for his own lucre. he answers , that what he did was for his majesties profit . therefore whether it be for his lucre or not , is in issue , and that they have proved ; and that which he puts in issue is not to the purpose , nor proved . whereas , he says , this article is not treason , yet look to the whole body of the charge , his taking away the property of the subjects , his inducing this by subtilty , by force or advice , to bring it to pass , if these be proved , their lordships will be of opinion with the house of commons , that it is a high and a great treason . therefore let him not say this or that piece is not treason , let him answer it if he can , that the subverting of the fundamental laws be not great a treason . my lord takes advantage , that the patent to the dutchess concerns not him , for it is granted in march , and his . april following ; but if the times be observed , it will answer it self , for the th of march , car. the rates are raised , . march my lord of carlisles patent is surrendred , . march , the dutchess patent dated , and . april car. some days after my lord of strafford's lease is passed . if this had been intended for the dutchess , she would have kept it , but she keeps it not to pay a days rent , or receive any profit . but this will intrench on my lord of strafford's answer , on the ingenuity of which he stands so much , for he says , there were propositions to raise these rates , and he was acquainted and intreated to go on , and thereupon he enters into the bargain : we desire your lordships to mark the time , that if there were these propositions to raise the rates , and this lease must be drawn on the raising of the rates ; then was he interressed in the raising of the rates , before he was interressed in the lease . and then there is the execution of a design carried in several hands , which tend to one purpose , for he enters into it the seventh year , and his own lease is the eighth ; and therefore it was on his own design and counsel , and for his own profit . my lord instanceth , that the article lays the book of rates to be raised . whereas this was done . mr. maynard observed , time is not material ; had they charged him to have made a book of rates such a date , it had been something . but if an offence be laid in one year , and it appears to be done in another year , he must be punished for that now which he did at any time . to the tunnage and poundage , being the inheritance of the king , it is so in ireland ; but the point is the oppression of the subject , when he makes that three which is but one ; and so instead of giving the king his due , to extort from the subject what he ought not to pay . if he says , proofs could not be had to prove a greater value of the commodities , he had time to produce a witness out of all ireland . the commons have produced them that speak of the highest value , and there is great difference between three , four , five , the highest is six , and twenty . what occasioned williams to relinquish the bargain is not material : but in what case is the subject of ireland , that when a bargain is to be set at the highest , he that is to be their governor and judge , to whom all appeals must be made , shall enter and put in his authority to make a bargain that none else would take . the subject is like to have good justice , when the judge must lose by the judgment he gives in the cause ; when the deputy of ireland must be both judge and party . it is said williams first entertained it , and left it ; but though my lord be not the first that projected it , he is the man that first put it in execution , the first that took it under the great seal , and first brought it to be a grievance to the subject , and that he is charged withall . it might be fit for goldsmiths , and such to prosecute it , but not for them that are imployed in administration of justice , and in great designs to follow such a design . but when profit comes roundly in , sir arthur ingram must be put out , and for years have half a years value . mr. maynard added , that my lord of strafford , in his answer , gives it as a justification of himself , that he did not hold it fit to take such a bargain from the king , wherein there was not l. to be got . but though he thought it not fit to take when he could get but l. yet he held it fit to take such a bargain from the king , where , in holding it eight years , he gets l. he thrusts out sir arthur , and why not himself . and there is no wonder , that he that gained so much , would seem to interest his majesty in part , that his share might remain more intire ; surely it was the more injustice in him to retain the bargain , when he had stept into it . for the letter of iuly , . there was a proposition , shewing his majesties care for his subjects in ireland what to inhance , no , to inhance if there were cause . my lord pretends he was loath to make an inhancement , but that was the opinion of the board : it is to be wondred that he took them not down rather . and so he concluded , that they had proved the charge ; that he hath procured the customs to be advanced , they were not advanced till he entred . and their lordships were desired not to let one thing pass without observation . that from car. to this time such gain hath been made , that there is come to his purse and his parteners l. if the depositions be to be credited , and it must be four more , if the succeeding years hold proportion . that here is not only an inhancement of rates on the subject , by way of extortion , but this is soaked out of the kings purse . that is the l. a year rent for the wines , the surplusage of the wines , the defaulcation of colerane , london-derry , knock fergus , and strangford . and besides their lordships may observe the clause in the patent ; the grant must be good , though there be an act of parliament against it , and the king must pay for his own prize goods , which is left unto their lordships judgments . the committe did now declare , that for the present they would lay aside the eleventh article , and proceed to the twelfth . the twelfth article . the charge . . that the said earl being lord deputy of ireland , on the ninth day of january , in the thirteenth year of his now majesties reign , did then , under colour to regulace the importation of tobacco into the said realm of ireland , issue a proclamation in his majesties name , prohibiting the importation of tobacco without licence of him and the council , there from and after the first day of may , anno dom. . after which restraint , the said earl , notwithstanding the said restraint , caused divers great quantities of tobacco to be imported to his own use , and fraughted diverse ships with tobacco , which he imported to his own use : and that if any ship brought tobacco into any port there , the said earl and his agents used to buy the same to his own use , at their own price ; and if that the owners refused to let him have the same at under-values , then they were not permitted to uent the same there : by which undue means the said earl having gotten the whole crade of tobacco into his own hands , he sold it at great and excessive prizes , such as he list to impose for his own profit . and the more to assure the said monopoly of tobacco , he the said earl , on the three and twentieth day of february , in the thirteenth year aforesaid , did issue another proclamation , commanding , that none should put to sale any tobacco by whole-sale , from and after the last day of may , then next following , but what should be made up into rolls , and the same sealed with two seales , by himself appointed , one at each end of the roll. and , such as was not sealed , to be seized , appointing sir pence the pound for a reward to such persons as should seize the same : and the persons in whose custody the unsealed tobacco should be found , to be committed to goale , which last proclamation was coloured by a pretence , for the restraining of the sale of unwholsome tobacco , but it was truely to advance the said monopoly . which proclamation the said earl did rigorously put in execution , by seizing the goods , fining , imprisoning , whipping , and putting the offenders against the same proclamation on the pillory , as namely , barnaby hubbard , edward cavena , john tumen , and diverse others : and made the officers of state , and iustices of peace , and other officers , to serve him in the compassing , and executing these unjust and undue courses ; by which cruelties , and unjust monopolies the said earl raised l. per annum gain to himself . and yet the said earl , though he enhaunced the customes , where it concerned the merchants in general , yet drew down the impost formerly taken on tobacco from sir pence the pound to three pence the pound , it being for his own profit so to do . and the said earl , by the same , and other rigorous and undue means , raised several other monopolies , and unlawful exauions for his own gain , viz. on search , iron-pots , glasses , tobacco-pipes , and several other commodities . mr. maynard did begin to open the th article , which was read. that he did impost tobacco himself , and restrained others : forced the subjects to sell their commodity at low and under-values , because they could not import it without his licence ; and when himself had bought it at low rates , he sould it at excessive great rates ; so that he hath made near l. profit by his monopoly . that when his proclamation is made , and oppression put upon the people , he doth the d of feb. car. ordain , that none should sell tobacco within the kingdom , but such as was sealed by his appointment ; and , they that sold otherwise , their goods should be sold. that , by occasion hereof , the kings subjects have been grievously punish'd by fining , imprisoning , pilloring , whipping , and the like . to prove the restraint , the proclamation on the th of ianuary , the th car. was first read. by the lord-deputy and council . a proclamation concerning the importing of tobacco . by which proclamation , is set forth in substance as followeth . that whereas unsound tobacco is brought in , &c. by the unlimited liberty of divers to import , &c. and being no usual commodity , &c. a strict charge is given , that none presume from the first of may next , to import any tobacco without special licence from us , on pain of incurring his majesties high displeasure , and the punishments due for such contempts . the proclamation concerning sealing of tobacco was next read , the d of feb. car. by the deputy and council . wherein , the former proclamation is recited : and , to prevent secret wayes of importation , a charge is given from the last of may next , no tobacco be put to whole-sale , unless it be in compleat rolls , which may be conveniently seal'd , and to be sold with two seales , one to be affixed at each end , which seal order is taken to be provided for that purpose . that what tobacco shall be found without those seales , the kings officers may search for , and seize , and convey to the next port , which course shall be taken , that every seizor shall have d. for every pound , as an encouragement ; and , that the officers shall commit the persons of such in whose hands such tobacco shall be found , till security shall be given to appear before the deputy and council , and not to depart without leave , &c. mr. maynard observed , that iohn carpenter , &c. who are imployed in this business , are all servants to my lord of strafford , but little , who is sir george ratcliff's servant , who did accordingly make seizure . and he farther observed , that my lord of strafford had several magazines of tobacco , and that , from time to time brought in , was bestowed there . and , on the first day of his defence , my lord of strafford said , l. of his tobacco was seized . to prove the execution of these proclamations . timothy crosby sworn , and asked , whether ships have not been prohibited to land their tobacco ? he answered , yes : since the th of november , . and he instanced in governour briskett of montserratt , mr. arundel . being asked , if any ship perish'd upon the restraint ? he answer'd , the iohn of kingsale : it came into lymerick , and being not there suffered to sell , was forced to galloway , and was cast away going into another harbour : and this , because she was not one of the magazine . being asked , what rates the merchants sold their tobacco for before this restraint , and what since ? he answered , before the restraint , for d , or d the pound : and other times for d , and d on shipboard ; and since , some at d a pound , and others at d ob. being asked , why the ships were not permitted to land ? he answered , because they would not pay shillings a pound , d custom , and d impost . whence mr. maynard observed ; that if they come for the use of my lord of strafford , and his party , they must pay d ; if for others , d , and impost . patrick allen sworn : being asked to the matter of restraint . he answered , that a ship of tun was not admitted to land at yoghall , but forced to carry her lading of tobacco to st. mallis in france , where he believes it is . that a proclamation was out in , that no merchant should land any tobacco without special licence of the patentees . that before the proclamation he bought tobacco for d and d , a pound , a great quantity , of one of dartmouth : and since they pay shillings , groats , groats , and shillings . that the patentees pay the merchant d or d a pound , which is the most he hath heard of . iohn welsh sworn , and interrogated to the same matter . answered ; it was not granted , they sold as much as would pay for their provisions , for which they had d a pound ; but would not give way to land any more of it . that one arundell of excester put into waterford , and he the deponent was in company with him to dublin ; and desired , that if the said arundell could get off his tobacco , he would sell it him the deponent , who would give him shillings a pound for it : that he could not get it off , and sold it to ioseph carpenter for d a pound . that he paid for some landed at waterford by one wells , d a pound ready money . that the patentees do usually buy at d , only there was a bargain made with one arundell , to take it at d , or d ; but , how far they went he knows not . that one white of waterford put into lymerick , and told him the deponent , that he got but d a pound for his tobacco . being asked , what quantities he conceives is brought in annually ? he answered , that he hath estimated it with advice of others , that ireland cannot consume less then tun a year ; others say , it doth far exceed : and tun is near l. at s. d a pound . being asked , whether he knew any sentenced on these pretences ? he answered , he saw patrick wells , merchant , of waterford , stand on the pillory for having unsealed tobacco , and exposing it to sale. richard whitwick for the like offence pillory'd at waterford . that he hath heard of diverse others . and , he thinks the book of censures is here under the hand of the farmers sollicitor , and sent to the committee out of ireland by a messenger express . patrick gough being required to answer truely , whether the book produced , containing an abstract of the sentences made in the castle-chamber , was delivered him by the committee in ireland ? he answers , that he believes it was among other things delivered him by the house of commons , to be brought to the committee , sealed up in a box. but the committee not thinking fit to offer the book in evidence . patrick gough was examined , whether he heard of any sentenced in the proclamations for tobacco ? he answered , he knew divers , and there were three or fourscore from time to time attending in the council-chamber , committed to the marshalsey , and prosecuted by hunt ; and these were , ( as he remembers ) in easter term last . and michaelmas term before , and every year for three years past : that he hath heard of at a time committed , and they were sentenced for having tobacco unsealed . being asked on my lord of strafford's motion , whether my lord of strafford was a partie to them ? he answered , that as he remembers , in michaelmas term last was moneths , there were three waterford men sentenced , whereof one was for l. of tobacco . one of them fined l. and loss of his office , being waiter . the other l. and the merchant l. and both committed , and their fines reduced after to l. that they were fined before the council , at the council-table ; and as he remembred , my lord of strafford was then there . mr. maynard did then produce a sentence , under my lord of strafford's hand ( as he himself conceived it to be ) wherein divers persons were sentenced . mr. glyn desired a proof concerning the value , for which a witness should have attended , but is withdrawn ; but the remonstrance of ireland speaks particularly to it . that the value of it , exceeds all the kings certain and uncertain revenue in the kingdom of ireland . mr. plunkett being sworn , being examined touching the truth of the copy . answered , that he had the copy from the clerk himself being a member of the house . that he hath looked on the article of tobacco , and as it is in substance with that which was voted . my lord of strafford desired he might be asked what proofs were there offered . but mr. glyn opposed that , hoping there was no question to be made of the proof of a thing that was done by all the commons of ireland , to whom perhaps , their own knowledge is the proof . the remonstrance read as to the th article . that the tobacco bought at low rate , is sold at excessive rates , whereby thousands of his majesties subjects are destroyed , and most part of the coine of this kingdom ingrossed into particular hands ; insomuch , that the profits arising thereby , surmount his majesties revenue , certain or casual within this kingdom , and yet his majesty receives very little profit by the same . timothy crosby being interrogated how much tobacco comes into the port of kinsale for three years last past . he answered , tunn in three years . whence mr. maynard observed , if one port brings in tunn , the rest will go to a great height . being questioned what the patentees give , and what they require for such as is refuse tobacco upon the sorting of it . he answered , that for the refuse , the owners had not above d. and the patentees sold none of that under s. and so mr. maynard closed this article , observing that they have proved the restraint and the execution of it . that it is turned into a monopoly ; that none must be imported without their licence ; that they buy what is brought in at low rates , at d. a pound , when others will give s. that s. d. or d. is the highest they give , so that they sell for three or four times the value of what they pay : that by an estimate , tunn is imported : that punishments are inflicted ; the kings free subjects whip'd , pilloryed , fined ; and so my lord of strafford's answer was expected . after a little respit his lordship made his defence to this article , in substance as followeth . that he conceives he hath very little crime to answer , as to this charge , especially as unto treason . that he wisheth with all his heart he had so much profit to answer for , as is pretended that he gained by this business . his lordship presented in the first place a petition presented by the commons house of parliament in ireland ; in the parliament preceeding this , wherein they desired , that this lease of the impost of tobacco might be taken in , and compounded for , and converted to the kings benefit : that the revenue might be able to bear the charge , and the subjects eased from demand of contribution , and supply for this purpose ; so that this was originally ordained by themselves , on their own petition , to be setled as a revenue of the crown . the petition being affirmed by mr gibson , to be a true copy , being examined by him before sir paul davis in ireland , was read as to that point , and it imports . lastly , they do humbly advise , that the six subsidies , chearfully granted in this parliament , may be imployed for the buying of the leases and farms , that the same may be able to supply the necessary charge of this kingdom in the first place . and in the second place , to satisfie and discharge the debts and incumbrances aforesaid , as in manner aforesaid , and for the other not included . the house would not enter into consideration thereof , but are confident , that when others justly due , shall appear , your lordships will take a course that shall stand with your honor and profit . my lord of strafford offered a witness to prove , that the tobacco is one of the things that goes under the name of leases . mr. slingsby being examined to that point . answered , that he was a member of the house of commons the first parliament , and debate was offered , how the kings revenue might be supplied , to maintain the charge ; several grants and leases , applyed to particular men , were thought fit to be brought in , to be applyed to the kings advantage there ; there was the custom , wine , and aquavitae licenses ; there was tobacco , and in the kingdom . my lord of strafford desired liberty to reserve sir adam loftus , whom he conceived a material witness for him , but was now absent . lord robert dillon being asked whether he was of the parliament house when these leases were advised to be brought in , and whether the lease of tobacco was not one that was advised to be brought in , and applyed to the crown ; and that part of the subsidies should be imployed to that end . his lordship answered , that he did serve in the house of commons that parliament , that they were upon the kings revenue , and they wished that the charge might be answered by the coming in of the rents . he remembers , that on debate in the house , a committee was appointed to consider of the disposing of part of the kings revenue , to take off the incumbrances then of his majesties revenue , to the end , the rent of his majesty being raised , they might be able to answer the ordinary and standing charge of the kingdom , and so divers things were to be brought in ; but for the very particular of tobacco , he doth not remember , it by name though he remembers wine and aquavitae , and the incumbrances on the customs . my lord of strafford in the second place , shews the grant of the imposition on tobacco , as they were lett iune . iac. and at that time were lett for l. a year rent . which being attested by mr. gibson to be a true copy , and to be by him examined at the rolls in ireland , was read , as to this point purporting , that the king appoints , that from the date thereof , there shall be received by way of imposition money d. currant , upon every pound of tobacco , which is demised to william massam and iohn pitt for years , under the yearly rent of l. dat. iune , iac. next he offered a lease of the said impositions to mr. lyne for years , at l. per ann . dat. feb. iac. but mr. maynard admitting it , the reading thereof was forborn . next , he offers the kings letter iuly , car. whereby his majesty directs the setling of this business , and is a warrant for issuing of the proclamation wherewith he is charged . which being affirmed by mr. gibson to be a true copy , was read , whereby is imported . that his majesty being given to understand , that the pre-emption of tobacco may be rightly assumed , had resolved to lay hold of the present opportunity , requiring my lord of strafford to advise with such of the council there , as he should think fit , or by what limitations and conditions the pre-emption may be setled ; and afterwards , to direct a course for licencing the sale thereof , to the best improvement . yet so as a care may be had as near as may be , to prevent the bringing in of unfound tobacco , leaving to his judgement , all necessary provisions to be determined about this business , dat. iuly car. my lord of strafford observed , that this letter was sent upon the like course taken here in england , it being thought fit to be alike in both kingdoms ; but the business of england preceeded it , and was the occasion of the letter . the next thing observed was the proclamation in england , to probibit the planting of tobacco in england and wales , and the landing of tobacco in any part of england or ireland , but only at london , other than such , and so much spanish tobacco , and plantation tobacco , as should be allowed and determined to be competent , upon pain of confiscation : a moyety to the king , a moyety to the discoverer . which was read , being dated mar. car. which my lord of strafford observed to be the same with that wherewith himself is charged ; and that the letter directing him to take this business into consideration , bears date iuly . car. and the first proclamation issued out ult , ian. car. so that he made no haste . the next thing his lordship offered , was the contract it self , dat. nov. . car. which being affirmed by mr. gibson , to be a true copy , was read , being signed by the deputy and council , and imports that carpenter , bartholomew peatly and others had made an humble proposition , thereby setting forth , that no order hath been taken for the due bringing in of good and sufficient tobacco , or quantities proportionable to the consumption thereof , whereby the price is too much inhaunced , or the market glutted , and desiring that they may have the renting of the tobacco business for years , paying yearly l. for the first five years , l. for the six last years freed from custom , and only paying d. impost , and the custom not to be advanced ; that , they , and such as they shall contract with , may be free to return , and enter in london or ireland : that in case of war , they may account only for the profits , in lieu of the rent . that upon my lord of strafford's leaving the government , they may be free to surrender their grant , and not stand charged . that tobacco may be solely imported , and the sale licensed by them . that no tobacco be planted in ireland , during the term. whereupon , a warrant was issued for the paying of a grant to them of the sole importation , and lycensing the sale of tobacco for years , paying l. yearly for the first five years , l. for the last six years , above the custom of d. per pound , with all the customes received for his majesty since michaelmas last , and all impositions to be laid down during that term , &c. dat , nov. . and such security to be given for the rents , as to the court of exchequer should be thought meet where my lord of strafford observed , that he did nothing herein , without the assistance of the principal of the council there . and further , that before this was resolved , advertisement was sent his majesty , that his direction might be given , and the letter from the council of ireland , to secretary cook , being affirmed by mr. gibson , to be a true copy , was read , importing the substance of the said treaty , and the conditions thereof recited , dat. ult . may , . the next thing offered is the grant it self , dat. . iune , car. and an act of parliament for the confirmation of it , according to the petition and the king's letter . the clerk of the crown did now inform their lordships , that there is a bill concerning importation of tobacco , transmitted out of ireland in iuly last , and it was sent back at michaelmas last , with a commission to the lieutenant , to give royal assent , but whether it was given or no , he cannot tell . but my lord of strafford , said , it was only transmitted from the deputy and council , and sent back under the great seal , but did not pass the parliament there ; and he desired it might be read only as to the title : but that was laid aside . and then his lordship added , that as for the proclamation , he with the rest of the council , did set his hand thereunto ; and that he conceived then , and trusts it will appear now to be upon very good warrant , and justifiable ; he having the kings command in the point , and it being only temporary , till an act of parliament might make final in it , that it might remain in the crown for after-times , and a proclamation thus issued till an act of parliament comes , he conceives very justifiable ; if it be an error , it is an error he hath been always misguided by . that the king may make a proclamation till a parliament comes to make it more lasting . and whereas some transgressors against these proclamations , are sentenced , yet he is charged with none of them , and so on the matter is not charged with their sentence ; though he conceives the same very justifiable , there appearing to be perjury in some of them ; and if they be poor , and men of no great fortunes , he knows not what is more proper or deserved , than to see men taken in so foul a crime , on the pillory , as being a fair and moderate punishment ; and the fines were in terrorem , there being little or nothing of them paid . and this point of jurisdiction for punishing transgressors of act of state and proclamations , he conceives fully proved before in the former articles . and whereas 't is said ; the tobacco was not sold at reasonable rates as formerly , he desired their lordships to observe , that the contract was made iune , car. and in september was twelve moneths , he was not privy to it . and on this the contractors stand on their justification , and hope to make it appear , if they may have time , that the planters have in no part of christendom , so good a value as here ; and that they sell at as moderate rates , as ever was sold heretofore , and better conditioned commo●ty . his lordship further observed , that the proof which makes the great cry in point of value , is weak enough . that there should be near l. profit a year , is a wonderful estimate , and admirable to him . that during his being there , which was one year , it shall appear they were loosers by it ; which he speaks confidently , thinking those intrusted with it , would not abuse him ; they having protested , the countrey was so abused , that they could get very little by their office. that how it is sincehe knows not , for the contractors , one of them is laid up in prison , and the tobacco seized on , under pretence that he is impeached of treason ; but they profess ( and he believeth them ) that when sir george ratcliffe came out of ireland , they had received in money l. and they had layed forth in rent , buying tobacco , stock , and charges , l. so that they had not in their money by l. and sir george ratcliffe ( who is now in town , and though his misfortunes are heavy and sad enough , yet is known to be a person of honesty and worth ) he dares say , will take his oath on it , and they that know him , know he would not take a false oath , to gain all the world ; that there be indeed some debts which are not gathered , and some collected , and paid into the exchequer : and this he said , is to the value of the bargain ; and where he hears the gentleman say , the customs have been worth to him and his partners l. surely the informations have been much mistaken from them that gave the notice out of ireland ; for it is to be understood , that whatsoever the profits are , the kings rent must be taken out , which is l. of the rest the king hath ⅝ parts , and himself but ¼ part ; so that on the matter , he thinks they have been worth to him , or or l. a year better than the rent , though the value is not considerable in his charge against him of treason . that their lordships might see the reasons why he could not prepare a particular account of these things , his majesty had had a particular account , had not the ministers been so dealt withal , laid in prison , and abused ; if you will speak of a tyrannical and arbitrary way of government ( the commons expressing some distaste at this egression ; my lord of strafford saith he complains of ireland , not of things here ) and desires leave to read two orders of the commons house , who have seized on all , given order for sale of them , taken the contractors , imployed and imprisoned them , and he thereby rendred altogether unable to clear things , as otherwise he might have done ; and these things they do , he knows not how , but to his undoing indeed . mr. maynard did here interpose and desire to know , to what purpose he would have them read ; and whereas he speaks of a tyrannical usage , he desires to know whom he presses , whether the house of commons there or here . and mr. whitlock added , that my lord of strafford in his defence of the last article , let fall some things that were an aspersion on the whole state of ireland , the lords and commons there assembled ; for he said , their lordships might perceive the truth of the remonstrance , presented from thence on a former occasion , and now he speaks of a tyrannical government , on his making of orders , which himself mentions to be made by the house of commons in ireland . and therefore their lordships were desired to vindicate the honor of the kingdom of ireland , which suffers by those aspersions . sir iohn clotworthy further insisted on it , that their lordships are witnesses of the many commendations my lord of strafford hath formerly issued , concerning the people of ireland , as long as they were subservient to his courses , and could not find a way to extricate themselves from his lord ships yoke , they were cryed up , to be numbred amongst the best of his majesties subjects . now when they are seeking to vindicate and relieve themselves from his heavy yoke , they must be called a people , he knows not how bad , and therefore beseeches their lordships that they may be set right in their lordships opinions . the reading of the order being opposed by the committee , as tending nothing to the cause ; mr. maynard alleadging that my lord would have them ready to give their lordships satisfaction , why they should not be read , for he imports , they be tyrannical , and something he would deduce out of them , to the aspersion of others . whence my lord of strafford added only on the execution of them ; and mr. maynard replyed , prove them on the execution , they were at last permitted to be read . one dated feb. . importing , that whereas great sums of money have been raised by customs , above the rent , and my lord of strafford , and sir george ratcliff are impeached of high treason , therefore it is ordered , that all persons that have money of his majesties in their hands , concerning the monopolies , shall forthwith bring the same into his highness receipt ; and the commissioners appointed to oversee the ports , shall bring in their letters patents to be considered of ; and because the customs of dublin amount to ⅝ of ireland , and the now collector is not responsible for his great charge , if he should miscarry ; therefore sir edw. bagshaw , kt. now customer and collector , shall collect all the customes , and pay the same into the receipt . that the magazine-keeper of tobacco shall forthwith return a true list of all tobacco remaining in his hands , and what was sold since michaelmas . and to what account , and what moneys are received , and to whom the same is paid , and what money , bonds , bills , and other debts remain unpaid of the premisses , and in whose hands they be ; and that all customers , and officers in the ports and creeks , do deliver into this house within two moneths , a true list of all such seizures of money , tobacco , and other commodities , that they , or any of them have made or compounded for , or what remains in their hands ; and likewise all forfeited bonds for goods transported into england , &c. and of all fees they have received , and their warrants , and a note of all such persons as receive fees , and are no officers , and what fees , &c. for seven years last past . the second order was dated mar. . importing in effect , that forasmuch as much tobacco lies in the magazines , which is perished , it is ordered , that certain persons in the order named , shall make sale thereof to the best advantage ; and the contractors are required to make weekly accounts of all the moneys they shall receive , or which shall accrue out of the tobacco by them sold , and deliver the money to certain persons therein named , or any two of them , who are required to take the burden on them , and receive the account weekly due , &c. and to be answerable to his majesty , &c. my lord of strafford observed , that these he shewed , to justifie , that he could not give particular satisfaction , those imployed being in prison . and further , that in the whole proceeding of this , he had done nothing but what 's warrantable , and howsoever it proves a good or a bad bargain , that 's not in question ; for he never knew the goodness of a bargain could make a treason : if every one that makes a bad bargain with the king , should be a traitor , it were hard , but at that time none would be a partner with them , among them all that say , it was so great a bargain . that in fine , the worst of this can but be , that it is a monopolie , a sole buying and selling of tobacco ; and he hath known in his little poor experience many monopolies overthrown by sentence of the commons house , ; but under favour , never heard it to be judged treason before this time . for the port of kinsale , it is the port wherein in a manner , all the tobacco of the kingdom comes to be landed , and thence transported again ; and that the value of the tobacco is worth l. is but an estimate , and no consideration herein had of the price , the customes , the losses and charges , and the remonstrance of the commons , is only that they conceive it to be so ; and this is all the testimony to the value . and so his lordship concluded his defence . and mr. maynard made reply in substance as followeth . and first he observed , that whereas it was said , the orders of the commons house were rigid , indeed tyrannical , when they be heard , there 's no such thing in them ; they appoint two of my lord of strafford's agents , at least one of them is his agent , and the other patentee to account the money : that they shall only bring in a list , without taking away the books , or any thing conducing to his defence . that he knows not for what purpose my lord of strafford objected the lease iac. for that concerned imposition on tobacco , but the question here is , that none must sell tobacco without licence of the patentee . here my lord of strafford interposed , that any man that will pay imposition and custome , may bring in what tobacco he pleases . but mr. maynard answers , that that 's more than the tobacco is worth , and if the patentees may sell without imposition and custome at their own prizes , they are s. a pound before any man. mr. maynard proceeded to answer , that of the commons petitioning for regulating the king's debts , and observed , that it was only that the incumbrances on the kings revenue might be taken off ; and this is no ground that the subject must not have his goods , because the kings debts must be regulated , nor a good service done his majesty , that when the commons shall desire something may be done , therefore this is an argument , and justification , that any thing may be done ; this being to stop the issues of the affections of the kings people , when what they propound , shall be so far beyond their intention ; besides , some have been whipp'd , pillory'd , and , was that the intention of the commons house , to put such severity , pardon him if he say cruelty , upon the subject ? that the letter from his majesty was on a misinformation ; for it sayes , his majesty is given to understand the preemption of tobacco may be rightfully assumed ; yet the known law in england , or ireland , being , that any preemption may be put upon a commodity , to take it from the subject ; so they have the more to answer for it that did inform it : and , if the question be , who ? surely out of my lord of straffords own defence , he himself appears to be the man ; for , he makes the proposition of the commons-house the ground of his proceeding : so it was an arrow out of his quiver . besides , though it was to be assumed to his majesty , yet the question is , who had the profit ? the king had little in proportion to what hath been raised . for the proclamation , march car. whereas my lord makes that in england the example of that issued in ireland ; if that which follows may be an example to that which goes before , it may be true : but , the proclamation in ireland was in ianuary , and the proclamation here is in march , the same year ; therefore that 's a great mistake . besides , if there be a monopoly set up in england , shall that justifie another ? a crime being aggravated , when it becomes an example ; for , when they go to the other , one strengthens another ; and there is more mischief to the common-wealth . and , in parliament , they must be bold to say , when ill ministers shall take on them to vouch the sacred names of his majesty to justifie a monopoly , his majesty is innocent , but they liable to great punishment ; and the more punishable , because they justifie it under such a colour . as to the advertisement of it hither by the deputy and counsel ; shall their advertisement , of what was done unjustly , make it just ? besides , my lord of strafford takes on him the encouragement of the contracts ; for , there is one proposition that ( in case we remove ) they may have liberty to surrender their patents , which is a strong relish of my lord of strafford : for else , why should they desire no longer to continue the grant , then they may have his protection to whip , and pillory men ? and , the truth is , he is the sole man that hath the benefit of it , and the rest are his servants ; and , they will desire m r little may be examined to that point by and by . he added , that his lordship had a weak defence , else he would not have fled to such a buckler , as an act of parliament , certified from sir christopher wainsford the deputy of ireland ; that he thinks it fit to pass , who was one of them that acted at the councel-table , so far as his part came ; but , it was never propounded to either of the houses . and , where my lord sayes , a proclamation may be made , till an act of parliament make it more lasting ; mr. maynard said , yet he hoped , by no law in england , a proclamation may take away the goods of the subject : that there is a right in proclamation he will never speak against ; but , it is no temporary law to raise a monopoly . and , whereas he sayes , tobacco yields no where so good a value as in ireland , that 's nothing to the point of buying ; that when the subject may have shillings , my lord of straffords agents shall have it for d , and sell it again for or shillings . my lord sayes , the contractors are out of purse l. and 't is but said ; and that will not abate the testimony . for kinsale , the witness being an understanding man , says , that in that one port there comes in tun ; and whereas it is said , there comes none , in a manner , in any other port , why then hath my lord five magazines of tobacco at several places ? nothing is offered by way of defence : and he that shall justifie such things by the commands he hath produced , doth exceedingly justifie our complaint in that point ; for , were it not that by misinformation , the subject is left remediless at law , he might be holpen there : but , when my lord of strafford , and other great officers there shall use the king's name , that 's our trouble , therefore their profit : and , therefore , though my lord makes light of it , it will come heavy at the last , and is a great breach on the property of the subject , soleemption may be made of all things else . mr. glyn desiring to add a word , observed , that two things my lord of strafford mainly insists on , to justifie his actions . first , that the house of commons desired the revenue might be unfettered , by taking off the leases in being ; and urges , that they intended the lease of tobacco among the rest , which appeares not : but admit it , their intention was to take off the fetters and ingagements from the kings revenue , that the king might make the best of it ; not that others should feed on what was his , and he in the mean time want . now their lordships may observe , how my lord of strafford executes these intentions ; he gets a lease of it , but doth not he retain the kings revenue , being worth l. a year to himself for l. if the witness speaks truth ? so it falls on his own head , and is a plain deceiving of the king. there is a letter , which answer is made to ; but , if their lordships recall to memory what the letter was , it was as just as could be , to take a course for preemption of tobacco ; no , they afterwards enter into consultation , and advice , what should be done : and , what do they ? they lay a restraint that no man should import unless they would sell unto my lord of strafford , at his rate , and so it is executed to tyranny over the people . there is another thing my lord insists on : is the making of a good bargain treason ? but , out of the making of this bargain , if their lordships well consider it , they shall find a double treason to result ; first , exercising an arbitrary power , by laying what tax he will , for he may lay shillings as well as d. secondly . his depriving the king of his estate , under colour of advancing his revenue , which is to deprive the king of his government : for , if one takes away my meanes of livelihood , and defence against an enemy , it is a killing of me round about , though it were a more immediate killing of me to run me through . if he take away the kings livelihood and just revenue , whereby he is enabled to govern and protect his people , is it not to take away the government out of his hand ? and one word mr. glyn desired to add from something that fell from my lord of strafford , by way of prevention , concerning the parliament of ireland : we live under one king , and one government , and no doubt ought to be sensible of one anothers honour , the parliament of england , and the parliament of ireland . here is an article against my lord of strafford , for endeavouring to put him out of opinion of parliaments : in this assembly , where the commons and peers are assembled he hath endeavoured to blast a parliament : in the next kingdom he talkes of a tyrannical government , an arbitrary power : ( these were his words in effect ) is not this as much as in his power to cast a blast and ill affection ( in any man that hears him ) on the parliament of ireland ? and he that will do it in the presence of a parliament , in england , what will he do of a parliament of this kingdom , in the absence of a parliament , and when there is no parliament sitting ? and so concluded the twelfth article , and the house was adjourned . the thirteenth article . the charge , . that flax being one of the principal and native commodities of that kingdom of ireland , the said earl having gotten great quantities thereof into his hands , and growing on his own lands , did issue out several proclamations , viz. the one dated the one and thirtieth of may , in the twelfth of his majesties reign ; and the other dated the one and thirtieth day of january , in the same year ; thereby prescribing and enjoyning the working of flax into yarn and thread , and the ordering of the same in such wayes , wherein the natives of that kingdom were unpractised and unskilful : which proclamations so issued , were , by his commands and warrants to his majesties justices of peace , and other officers , and , by other rigorous meanes put in execution ; and the flax wrought , or ordered in other manner then as the said proclamation prescribed , was seized and employed to the use of him and his agents : and thereby the said earl endeavoured to gain , and did gain in effect the sole sale of that native commodity . april . . the thirteenth article was this day read and opened by mr. maynard , concerning flax , one of the native commodities of the kingdom , which my lord of strafford , by several proclamations , enjoyned the natives to work into yarn , in a way wherein they were unskilful ; and prohibited the buying of any yarn of this flax otherwise made ; and upon this occasion , much was seized : so that by the complaints of the commons , it appears , that thousands were undone , their goods being taken away , and converted to my lords use. for proofe , the second proclamation of deputy and counsel was read ; wherein the first is recited , importing in effect , that by reason of the multiplicity of ends in yarne , there is much confusion ; that for remedy , a proclamation issued the last of may last , which hath taken good effect : and , in regard some ill-disposed persons have nevertheless contracted for yarn at cheap and low rates , though not made according to the first proclamation ; that therefore the said first proclamation be strictly observed , and that none presume to buy any linnen-yarn , but shall be reeled on one end , and no more , &c. that if any person shall , after the first of april next , offend , contrary to this proclamation , he shall be proceeded against at the council board , or castle chamber : some are appointed to enquire of contempts , to whom recompence is promised . given , &c. ian. car. . the natives not being able to apply themselves to his commands , a warrant went to seize the goods , made , or brought contrary to this proclamation ; so that people forbore the markets , durst not sell none openly , and so could not pay their rents . the warrant was produced under my lord of straffords hand and seale , which his lordship affirmed , being in effect , by the lord deputy wentworth . to all iustices of the peace , &c. whereas benjamin croky is authorized to inform himself , and advertise the state , of abuses and contempts committed and done , against a proclamation made for reformation of the abuse of spinsters of linnen yarn , and to stay all yarn made contrary , &c. till our pleasure be further known : and whereas he now informs us , he cannot discharge that trust , in regard diverse persons do privily , in their own houses , and not in open markets , make sale of their yarn ; and though he hath desired assistance of publick magistrates , yet they have failed to afford him the same , in that measure that is fitting : in consideration whereof our pleasure is , and we do hereby require and authorize you , to be aiding and assisting to benjamin croky and his deputy , to seize on , and take all yarn which shall be found to be made contrary to the said proclamation , and to cause diligent search to be made in all houses , &c. where you shall be informed any such remaines lie hidden , and the same to seize and bring to dublin , to be disposed of , as we shall direct the party delivering it , taking crokies hand for receipt thereof , &c. to prove execution of it . benjamin croky sworn , was interrogated , whether he , by vertue hereof , hath seized any yarn , and how much ? and how it was disposed of ? he answered , that his deputy did seize yarn , and it was taken from him by means of ioseph carpenter the steward , who received the yarn into his custody , and converted it into my lords loomes . he doth not know what quantities , but it was a great parcel ; and , he thinks , it was to carpenters use , but most part of it unto my lords . further , this steward did employ iohn townesend to buy yarn , contrary to the proclamation ; he also imployed others to buy some for my lords use and his own . this he knowes . sir iohn clotworthy interrogated , what he hath known done in execution of these commands , being a justice of peace ? he answered , that he had formerly heard of this proclamation ; and another dated in may , concerning the yarn business , that there was this same , or the copy of this same warrant , under my lord deputies hand , brought to him , being a justice of peace ; and he required to give assistance in it : that he sent for the people that had been distressed in the business , and likewise the party employed by this crooky , and one white named in the proclamation , to know , by what authority they put this in execution ? thereupon they produced both the proclamation and this warrant . that he conceived , there was an extrajudicial proceeding in it , and therefore took examination of it ; and found , in the putting of the thing in execution , that whereas there was a clause in the proclamation , they should seize on all yarne , that was not an hundred threads every skean , and should seize on it when they found it short of this . that having taken the examinations , he sent them up to my lord deputy ( they being now out of his head ) with a letter , declaring the abuse of the business : that he heard nothing in return of the business ; but was severely threatned ; and received a letter from mr. secretary little , then my lord lieutenants secretary : that it was very ill taken , that he interposed in any thing , wherein my lord was concerned : and my lord rainalaugh had much adoe to keep off a serjeant at armes to be sent for him . my lord of strafford desired the letter might be shown : but , sir iohn answered , that it was written four or five years agoe , and he did not keep it ; but , if mr. secretary little be interrogated , he doubts not but he will acknowledge it . lord rainalaugh being interrogated to the same effect ? he answered , it is true , he was at dublin when some information had been given of sir iohn clotworthy , for something had been done in the yarne business , and that he apply'd himself to sir george ratcliffe , to desire him to preserve sir george from an ill office , and sir george moved in it accordingly , so that sir iohn escaped trouble at that time : for the execution of the warrant about the flax , that he knows is this white , or his fellow , or one of them , he knows not whether ; but , he coming to the fair of athlone ( where the lord rainalaughs residence is ) gave a deputation to iohn dennis , a soldier of my lord wilmots ; and , that within little time after , several complaints were brought to him , as well by some of the townsmen of athlone , or divers of the countrey , that this dennis had seized on a great deal of yarne in the shops in the town , and abroad in the countrey . that he sent for the soldier , and asked him , by what authority he did so ? who thereupon shewed the proclamation , a warrant from my lord deputy , and such a kind of warrant as this ; ( whether a warrant , or a copy , he cannot say ) : that he examined what proportion of yarn he had taken ; and , he told the lord rainalaugh , he had as much as a cart could carry : asking him what he would do with it ? the said dennis answered , he would carry it to dublin : and he asking him farther , what he would do with it there ? he told him ( the lord rainalaugh ) he had direction to deliver it to mr. carpenter , my lord deputies steward : that he , the lord rainalaugh , medled not with it , but thereupon posted a gentleman to dublin , that had ready access to the deputy , and told him the complaints , and this abuse , by execution of that warrant : and , that though it was not agreeable to my lord of straffords intentions ( he conceived ) to have them used , he thought fit to represent them : thereupon , he the lord rainalaugh went to dublin . sir iohn clotworthy being interrogated , what he knows about breaking open of chests , for finding of flax , or any thing of that nature . he answered , that ( as it hath been laid open ) immediately on the issuing of these proclamations , and these mens going abroad . the markets were deserted , and little came to the markets at all , though it were the most native commodity of the kingdom , and paid most part of the may-rents ; for , it is that the women work on all the winter-season : and , when the markets were deserted , people were fain to bring their yarn into houses , and sell it under shelter , where they might not be seen , nor these fellows seize on it ; that thereupon these men would come to justices of peace , and officers , and they came to sir iohn himself , and though he would not assist , they would threaten the constables , and break open chests , and thereupon he the said sir iohn clotworthy took away yarn from them , and restored it to the proprietors . this was done in the town and county of antrim : that he cannot tell how long it is since ; but , it was in pursuance of this proclamation and warrant . being asked , whether the people were not ready to rise in tumults and uproares , where these were executed ? he answered , that it made very great disorder , and great reason for it ; for , they took away all they had provided for their half years rent , and many people , even multitudes , starved . lord rainalaugh being interrogated the time , answered , he could not tell the certain time ; but , my lord of strafford did withdraw it himself . patrick gough being interrogated , where he had the remonstrance of the house of commons ? he answered , it was delivered him the th of february , in the commons house of parliament in ireland , the whole house sitting : to be transmitted to the committee for irish affaires here , with many other things . which remonstrance was read , being , in effect , the most lamentable complaint of the knights , citizens and burgesses chosen for the provinces of conaught , and ulster , touching that most cruel extortion , or rather robbery committed by a company of pursivants , sent abroad to seize yarne , by colour of divers proclamations by the lord deputy , ianuary and may , . i. the said pursivants came into all the publick markets , and seized on all the linnen-yarne and clothing , by which the markets were destroyed . ii. the merchant was forced to meet the people at their private houses ; which they understanding , way-layed the people , and took away their yarne , and cloth , and seized on what the merchants had bought . iii. when any came to the markets , they went to the houses of poor people , and took up the hutches where their cloth lay , and seized on all , leaving not so much as to cover their nakedness . iv. they took away all the poor peoples iron pots , on pretence of another proclamation , so that on this great cruelty , which exceeded pharoes , the poor children were forced to go into the fields , to eat grass with the beasts of the field , where they lay down and died by thousands ; if it be deny'd , it will be proved by twenty thousand : and the iudges of assize , &c. procured my lord lieutenant to recall all the foresaid proclamations . mr. fitzgarret being interrogated , as to the value of this commodity , to the kingdom of ireland ? he answered , that he hath known the province of ulster , and had occasion to converse with the best of it for years last past : that he was for years imployed in the circuit for these parts , and observed , the natives made a very great commodity of yarne and linnen-cloth : that he may safely call it the staple-commodity of that part of the kingdom ; that the merchants buying their yarne , and transporting it to lancaster , it was a very great commodity , and many lived on it ; that the proclamation and execution of it ( as he was informed by a man of very good rank ) impoverished the whole province , especially the irish natives , of whom few have lands or estates , but live as tenants ; and the lands there not yielding wheat or barley in abundance ( as other countries ) they convert the best lands to the sowing of flax , and make a very great commodity of it ; that he had continual conference , especially in term-time , with the best in those parts , and especially mr. robert braithwait , agent for my lord of essex , and dr. cook , of whose two towns , one is supported by this commodity , and dr. cook said , there hath been a hundred pounds worth of yarn in a day sold and bought in that place , and by this means the markets are wasted , the people impoverished , and that he the said dr. cook thinks in his conscience , many thousands are famished by the scarcity of money that ensued on the seizing of this ; and the extremity was such , that one of the deputies of those mens authorising , went into the house of a scotchman in the parts of ulster ( himself being in england or scotland ) would open the chests , and used such cruelty , that they thrust a stick into the womans throat , and she died of it , and the man was tried for it , as he was informed . and so mr. maynard concluded the charge , supposing it to be sufficiently proved . after a little respite , my lord of strafford made his defence in substance as followeth . that in this charge , he hears something tending to oppression , but nothing at all towards treason , for which he is only to answer . that the intention of these proclamations touching yarn , was certainly very good , and he thinks the power very lawfully executed , being but temporary , to take away an abuse , and make it better for the common-wealth . that he conceives not , how these proclamations should be particularly laid on him , for he hath very good company goes along with him , being set out by the deputies and council , and affixed to them the hands of my lord loftus , the lord primate , the archbishop of dublin , earl of ormond , lord dillon , sir adam loftus , the two chief justices , and others : that he had rather answer all , than impute any thing to any body else , but he believes their lordships will conceive he is not particularly answerable , for things done by the advice of the council , as for the best . that he conceives they had power to issue these proclamations , as in other things was frequent , as in drawing by the horse tail , burning the straw , and so taking the corn from it ; to bring them from these irish customs to the english manners : so in this , that their winding of thread might be brought off with more conveniency , as being of so much more value ; for the unwinding was as much trouble as the thing was worth , so that the authority was lawful , and well executed in the granting of it . he craved leave to tell their lordships wherefore it was , being desirous to regulate this business more than any other thing whatsoever ; and it was out of that duty and service he did , and ever should owe to the english nation ; however for the present , he may not be thought one , he had those affections , and shall have to his death , to wish the kingdom all prosperity and happiness , in all the parts of it . that at his coming over , he did observe , the wooll of that kingdom did increase very much , that if it should there be wrought into cloth , it would be a very great prejudice in time to the clothing trade of england , and therefore he was willing , as much as he might lawfully and fairly , to discourage that trade : that on the other side , he was desirous to set up the trade of linnen cloth , which would be beneficial there , and not prejudice the trade of england ; but it was extreamly to his loss , for he says he lost l. and the stewards chamber being searched , and it appearing so , the accounts were delivered back again ; so that he conceives they had lawful power so to do , till a law might make it more certain and setled ; and then he is answerable for nothing in all the rest , because the execution was nothing to him , and the abuses of the officers he is not to answer for , of whom croky was the principal executor , and if there was an offender , he is the greatest offender himself , and my lord rainalaugh tells their lordships plainly and truly , that upon complaint of the ill execution of it , it was absolutely recalled , and that within two years : so if it were a fault , he was not incorrigible , but willing to amend it on the first notice . for the warrant , there is nothing proved of any thing amiss in him , but it goes only to second the proclamation , and that there should be assistance in the due and just execution of it : only it says the yarn shall be brought to dublin , there to be disposed of , as he should direct ; but there is no proof of any brought to him , only my lord rainalaugh mentions a cart-load brought to dublin , as the fellow told him ; and croky says , some was brought to dublin ( but he knows not how much ) and it was converted partly to his use , partly to carpenters , but he is a single witness ; whereas my lord rainalaugh says , there was taken at athlone ( as he was told ) a cart-load of yarn , and sir iohn clotworthy says , they starved by multitudes in ulster ; my lord of strafford said , he could not conceive how so little a quantity taken in conaught , should be an occasion of starving multitudes in ulster , nor the small quantities taken by croky , but if there were so many starved , it must be occasioned by some other means than this . that his looms should be an occasion of starving so many men , he conceives very strange , for in truth , the value of cloth made in those looms in a year ( which he left his tenants to manage ) was not , as he remembers , above or l. and if their lordships consider the value of the yarn with the labour , they would wonder the making of such a quantity in a year should starve so many thousands . it is very true , ( he said ) he 's sorry for that remonstrance , read of the commons house in ireland , thinking he had merited a better opinion in that ▪ kingdom ; but howsoever they have been informed , he doubts not , but when things are shewed them more clearly , than they have been hitherto , he shall have their good opinion still ; he never in truth , doing or saying any thing in all his life , but with very clear and faithful intentions to the good and prosperity of that common-wealth and kingdom ; his lordship added , that he had some little fortune amongst them , not great indeed , nothing near that which is reported , hardly the fifth part , but something he had there , honestly and justly come by , and for that reason he had cause to wish well to the kingdom ; and it grieved him extreamly to hear such a remonstrance read : there would be a time he hoped , when he should have means to give them better satisfaction ; but it is but a charge , and cannot ( under favour ) be the proof of a charge , being only received by information of witnesses , and no oath being given by the commons-house , he conceived it could not be made a proof against him , but the truth of the charge comes to be examined ; for the remonstrance says , that these things will be proved by . to which he can say nothing , but that he is infinitely sorry , he should be so mistaken in that kingdom , where ( to his best understanding ) his conscience tells him he hath deserved very well ( with modesty be it spoken , his lordship added ) of them all , and desired to do justice amongst them , and there would come a time when he should be better understood , as well there , as here he hoped for the testimony of mr. fitzgarret , he speaks nothing of knowledge , but what he hath been informed and heard , and what hath been credibly reported to him , and those are no proofs to be judicially taken , as he conceived , nothing being by mr. fitzgarret spoken , but by report ; and their lordships have heard this reported as well as he , yet knew not whether it be true , further than is proved . so he concluded where he began , something may look like an oppression in them that did execute it , but nothing as to himself and the rest of the counsel , who issued the proclamation on just and warrantable grounds , and according to that power they had from the king , which he conceived was a full and clear acquittal of him ( humbly submitting to their lordships better judgements ) of this article , so far forth , as it amounts in any kind , to convince him of high treason . to which mr. maynard made reply in substance as followeth , and first he observed , that my lord of strafford was still striking on the same string , here ( said he ) is no treason , though something tending to oppression , and so at this rate , he can never want an answer : for if this be not ( in this particular ) as high and wilful an overthrow of the fundamental rules and justice of the kingdom , as can be imagined , i appeal to your lordships : and that is it wherewith he is charged , not as if this singly would amount to treason : and whereas his lordship says , his intention was good , if ( when an oppression of high justice is committed ) it be enough to say , he had a good intention , it is a good defence to take away mens goods , and apply them to his own use ; and so this being practis'd by him universally , on a whole kingdom , may be excused by a good intention : but god knows the heart , your lordships are judges of his actions and oppressions . he says the proclamation was a temporary law to take away goods , break open houses , forbid and annihilate contracts ; this he says in the face of the kingdom ; so that there cannot be better evidence given against him , than comes from his own mouth : for that , which is put upon him , is , that he would erect a government that depends meerly upon will , and take away that which is obliged to laws . to say a proclamation is a temporary law , is to make a law , as long as it pleases them that award the proclamation to continue : for when shall it have an end , but by the pleasure of them that send it forth ? he would excuse himself , that he hath gone in good company : did the commons insist on this , as a single misdemeanor , my lord might say , he is not the only man that deserves punishment , but he cannot say , but that he is the principal man , and indeed , and in effect the sole man , as it will appear in the answer to the rest . they are too blame that follow his misguidance , but he is not innocent that draws others into such actions with him . mr. maynard observed the nature of the proclamation , it was not to appoint a regulation , but to take away the subjects goods ; neither giving them time to vend the commodities in their hands , nor to depart from that ( if it were an ill usage ) but forthwith , as soon as the proclamation was out , the goods must be seized , because they did not doe the things they could not doe . he saith the execution is nothing to himself , but to his agents . surely , he that will command unjust and evil things , is not a whit less guilty , because he hath ministers , that will apply themselves to his pleasure , to execute unlawful commands . he commands , they execute it ; and when they had executed it , they bring it to his looms , that is , to his profit . he says it was recalled after two years or thereabouts , but your lordships may remember , on what misfortune and cruelty it was recalled , the tumults , the stirs , the oppressions it did produce : and his recalling it after two years , makes him not innocent before , when or or had perished by the oppression of it ; he was not innocent , because or did not perish ; it was too long kept on foot , and he that doth unlawful things in so great a measure , is not to be excused , because he cannot bring them wholly to pass . for that 's all can be said , he could go no further , and therefore he leaves it off . he says , his warrant is not amiss , but it is extreamly amiss , for the minister should advertise the state touching the subjects conformities ; but my lord of strafford will have them presently enter the house , and seize the goods : the proclamation puts them on it , but the warrants command justices of peace , and all ministers of justice , to come in and countenance this cruelty ; and when they did not conform to it , they had reproofs from my lords servants . and if the point were only to produce witness , that the flax or yarn came to my lords own hands , it might be despaired of , but when the profit comes to his hands by his agents , and those set on work by him , it is no excuse to say it was done by others . mr. maynard said further , he wondred my lord should say , there was no proof , when there were two express witnesses ; my lord said , he heard but of a cart-load , mr. maynard answered , he heard not the word , but he heard of about a cart-load , and could that starve men ? yet if a cart-load be not sufficient to starve men , if there be more than starved , then more than a cart-load was seized . at that time there came in but a cart-load , but there came in by good quantities , when it came in by cart-loads . he says the remonstrance is but a charge , but it comes in on good proof , and it is concerning a whole province , and ( as it is likely ) they were there that knew of the miseries that befell the provinces . mr. maynard further observed , that heretofore in the matter of tobacco he told your lordships , he had a command ; it was expected , he would have produced something to the purpose now , but god be thanked he hath not : he says tobacco is a superfluous thing , but these things that are for clothing are not superfluous , and being he hath gone into this excess , mr. maynard concluded with this , that he must leave him to their lordships judgements , for he had made an excuse , tho that he said did not reach an excuse , and whereas my lord said , the cart-load of yarn was taken in conaught , not in ulster . mr. glin added that one thing was observable from my lord of strafford's own evidence , which seemed to convince him of what he denied . he pretends this was for advancement of trade , not for his own use , and that there was but l. worth made in a year , but himself casting his accompts says , he lost l. so he owns it by the loss , but not by the benefit , which convinces the principal point himself denies . here my lord of strafford desired leave to explain himself , that ( when he said he lost l. and l. a year made of it ) he said he made cloth there or years as hetook it , and the cloth it self , not the yarn , was worth l. for the yarn was not worth l. and in that time he might very well loose l. and so the thirteenth article was concluded , and the fourteenth article being for the present laid aside , the committee proceeded to the fifteenth article . the fifteenth article . the charge , . that the said earl of strafford , traiterously and wickedly devised and contrived by force of arms , and in a warlike manner to subdue the subjects of the said realm of ireland ; and to bring them under his tyrannical power and will , and in pursuance of these wicked and traiterous purposes aforesaid ; the said earl of strafford in the eighth year of his majesties reign , did by his own authority , without any warrant or colour of law , car , and impose great sums of money upon the towns of baltemore , bandenbridge , talo'we , and divers other towns and places in the said realm of ireland , and did cause the same to be levied upon the inhabitants of those towns by troops of soldiers , with force and arms , in a warlike manner . and on the ninth day of march , in the twelfth year of his now majesties reign , traiterously did give authority unto robert savill , a serjeant at arms , and to the captains of the companies of soldiers , in several parts of that realm , to send such numbers of soldiers , to lye on the lands and houses of such as would not conform to his orders , until they should render obedience to his said orders and warrants , and after such submission ( and not before ) the said soldiers to return to their garrisons . and did also issue the like warrants unto divers others , which warrants were in warlike manner with force and arms , put in execution accordingly , and by such warlike means , did force divers of his majesties subjects of that realm , to submit themselves to his unlawful commands . and in the said twelfth year of his majesties reign , the said earl of strafford did traiterously cause certain troops of horse and foot , armed in warlike manner , and in warlike array , with force and arms , to expell richard butler from the possession of the mannor of castle-cumber , in the territory of idough , in the said realm of ireland , and did likewise , and in like warlike manner , expell divers of his majesties subjects from their houses , families , and possessions , as namely edward o brenman , owen oberman , john brenman , patrick oberman , sir cyprian horsefield , and divers others , to the number of about an hundred families , and took , and imprisoned them and their wives , and carried them prisoners to dublin , and there detained until they did yield up , surrender , or release their respective estates or rights . and the said earl in like manner , hath , during his government of the said kingdom of ireland , subdued divers others of his majesties subjects there to his will , and thereby , and by the means aforesaid , hath levied war within the said realm , against his majesty , and his liege people of that kingdom . mr. palmer proceeded to open the th article , which concurred with the precedent in point of evidence , to make good the charge of the commons against the lord of strafford , in point of high-treason . the main accusation being , his labouring to subvert the established laws and government , and instead of them , to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannical power . that this laid in the th article , doth more than prove this charge , charging him with acts of force and hostility , which are not only an evidence to prove his design , but are actual subversions of law , and introducing of an arbitrary power , as their lordships will perceive , when they shall hear how he executed his commands by soldiers . and as this contributes with the rest in proof of the main charge , so he humbly offered , that this article , singly and individually of it self , contained a charge of high treason , and that the nature of the offence would appear in the proofs of the article . the article is first general , that he did traiterously devise , to subdue the subjects of the realm of ireland , by force of arms , in a warlike manner , under his tyrannical power and will. in pursuance of these things that are charged in the article ; the first they said , they would pass over at that time , and my lord of strafford also had notice , that they intended to wave it for the present . the second is , that march . of the king , he gave a warrant to one savill , a sergeant at arms , and to captains and soldiers of that kingdom , to quarter on the houses and lands of such , as would not conform to render obedience to his orders , such number of soldiers , as the sergeant at arms should think fit , according to the demerit of the delinquents , and to be kept there , until they made submission , and then to return , and not before . and the like warrants were issued to others , and to the subjects of that realm , who were forced to submit to his illegal commands , and this is charged to be a levying of war against the king , and his people . your lordships may please to remember , what a power my lord of strafford had assumed to himself from the courts of justice established by law , in taking to himself an arbitrary power , to determine causes on petitions , and that without any legal process . and he intended to himself , an execution of these orders in this manner . if a petition was presented , first a signification went to the party , that he should satisfie the complaint , else shew cause ; if he did not appear , then there went a messenger , or pursivant ; on his affidavit that the party was not found ( as well he might not be found ) then an attachment : after that , the sergeant at arms. this sergeant at arms had always with him a warrant dormant , ( not a particular warrant in the case complained of ) that whensoever he should have an order to fetch any man in ( if once he had made affidavit he could not be found ) he was by virtue of that warrant , to repair to the next garrison , and there to take such numbers of soldiers , as he thought fit , and quarter them on the house of the party : and this was as ordinarily executed , as any powers of law in legal cases . in the execution of this , the party suffered as much insolencie , as is incident to war ; their catel taken , their corn thrash'd out , their growing corn cut , their houses burnt , and some exiled , and forced to leave their countrey , and flie to remote places , by reason of their soldiers insolencies . the method propounded is , first , to prove the fact : then to observe the nature of the offence , both from the stat. of . edw. . and also from a particular stat. in ireland h. . whereby the offendor in this very case , is adjudged to be a traytor . mr. savil the sergeant at arms produced and sworn , and a copy of his warrant offered . my lord of strafford excepted against the reading of the copy in a charge of high treason ; adding , that it concerned him very much , he being to be tryed for his life and honor , since upon this the whole charge was to be grounded . on other things he did not insist so much , but submitted to their lordships pleasure , because they said they would consider them in their judgement ; but this being the ground and foundation , whereupon they intend to charge him with high treason , he besought their lordships to consider it , with that honor , and goodness , and justice they did in all things . mr. glyn in answer alledged , that their lordships had over-ruled it in the case of the bishop of down . that ( suppose a warrant is offered by force , whereby high treason is committed ) if a copy may not be given in evidence , then let him that is guilty in such a case , get away the originals , it cleares him of the treason : besides , it is no matter of record : and mr. maynard observed , that if one writes a letter , and therein commands one to commit treason ; if the letter be burnt , this man shall not prove the command , if only the original must make it good . mr. savill being asked what was become of the original warrant ? he answered , it was in ireland , he not expecting any question about this business , but this was the copy of it , and under his own hand . my lord of strafford offered to their lordships , that he that is to swear it to be a true copy , is the man , that ( if a fault be committed ) is in fault himself as much as any , for he is the man that executed this treason , and now he shall swear to the justifying of his own act . mr. savill being ( on my lord of clares motion ) asked , how they came by the copy ? he answered , he knew not how it came into their hands . but , mr. palmer added , now he sees it in our hands , and he knows it : and that this copy cannot be questioned , unless he question what is done already ; for , in this very case , a copy is allowed to be an evidence , for the relation it hath to the greatness of the charge , as to my lord of strafford ; and it cannot alter the justice of the evidence ; for , if it be an evidence , it is an evidence in whatsoever the cause is . mr. savill being asked , how he came to set his hand to the vvarrant ? he answered , that in ianuary last there came to him one vvilliam somer , secretary to my lord rainalaugh , and told him ; mr. sergeant savill , you had a warrant to quarter soldiers on one within the town of athlone , but the parties were friends , and you removed them ; one of those soldiers committing extortion , in taking away two pewter dishes , and is to be tried at our next sitting ; and , unless the soldier have a copy of your warrant , he is like to suffer in it : that he thereupon answered , he could not deny it ; and brought the original warrant , and being a good clerk , he bad him copy it out . he sayes , he desired you to let some of your own men do it , and i will give him for his pains — that he , the said mr. savill , did thereupon deliver the original warrant to his servant , edmond brumingham , as he remembers , who copied it out . that mr. somer came , and told him , here is a copy : that he asked mr. somer , whether he had examined it ? yes indeed , saith he , it is a true copy : that upon that , he the said mr. savill delivered this to mr. somer , under his hand , but did not compare it himself , yet is confident it is a true copy . mr. maynard observed , that they charged a treason in an act , that my lord of strafford gave authority to do such a thing ; not that he gave this particular warrant ; and though they proved no copy at all , yet proving the command , it maintained sufficiently the charge : for , a treason may be a treason , though not put in execution . that they produced not this copy , as necessary to give a precise copy , but to prove that there was such a command and authority given ; and , as a farther evidence , they shew a copy taken on such an occasion : and , witnesses are here , who will clearly depose , that this is the very substance and effect of the warrant , given under my lord of straffords hand . here my lord of strafford interposed ; that it was charged on him in particular , that on the th of may , in the th year of the king , he gave traiterously , authority to robert savill , &c. but mr. palmer insisted , that they did not find much on reading this warrant ; but , if the authority was proved it was sufficient . and mr. pym added ; that they could not wave any part of the evidence , and therefore prayed it might be read . mr. savill being ( on the motion of the earl bath ) examined , whether this was the occasion of his coming over ? and , whether he had not said , he had brought all his warrants with him ? he answered , that by the oath he hath taken , that he knew nothing of it , till the night he came to the city : that he had not said , he had brought all his warrants ; for he had none ; and should have spoken an untruth if he had said it : and he came on his own occasions , not sent for . being asked , whether he thought in his conscience , that it was a true copy ? he answered , yes ; i am confident ; for the substance of it . to determine the question , their lordships resolved to adjourn to the house above . mr. palmer desiring it might be remembred , that the copy was signed by savill's hand ; that savill was the person to whom the warrant was directed ; and , the man that hath the principal warrant in his custody ; that gave direction for the copying of it ; and added , that himself was ready to prove the substance and effect of it . their lordships adjourning , and shortly after returning : the lord steward reported their lordships resolution , viz. that their lordships had taken into consideration this copy , and thought of it seriously ; and that in this individual case , they held it not fit to be read , because it was not attested : and that their lordships , in no other case since the tryal began , had admitted the like copy , but where it was attested : that they conceived , this could be no impediment , or failer in the proceeding , because the truth , and verity of it would depend on the first general power given to execute it , which they that manage the evidence for the commons , say , they can prove . mr. palmer thereupon alleadged , that they would apply themselves to their lordships directions : that the thing offered in evidence had been executed ; that soldiers ( according to what was deposed to be the effect of this warrant ) have been quartered on the houses , and lands of such persons , as have been complained of on paper petitions , either in case they have not appeared , or after appearance , did not render obedience . mr. savill being asked , what he did in that kind ? and , what warrant he had for it ? he answered , that the warrant , by vertue of which , he laid soldiers on several delinquents lands , was delivered to him by my lords deputies secretary , mr. edmonds ( as he remembred ) by virtue of which warrant , after five or six several times going for the delinquents , when they could not by any means be brought in , he did ( according to my lord deputies command , make use of his warrant , and layed soldiers on them till they had submitted themselves : and , that the warrant was given under my lord deputies hand . being asked , what he meant by delinquents ? he answered , thus ; he ever observed on complaints made to his lordship , my lord issued his command ; this command was served on the party complained of ; and , on return of that , oath being made of it , that the party gave not satisfaction , a warrant was issued to the pursivant ; on the pursivants return ( he not meeting with the party ) the party possibly absenting himself , or rescued out of the pursivants hands , there is an oath taken by the pursivant , a warrant given to the sergeant at armes , who goes in person , or sends his deputy three or four or five times , and when the party cannot be got , then he lays soldiers . being asked , what he meanes by laying of soldiers ? he answered , that he was to go to the captain , or chief officer of the next company , or garrison , to complain of the party he calls delinquent , and show my lord deputies warrant , and then he commands them to rise with such a number , as he shall think convenient , and march to the party complained of , in whose house they lie , till they receive further direction . being asked of the questions severally . he answered ; that it was by a general warrant he laid soldiers on delinquents , and that he had a particular warrant first , but when that was disobeyed , he used this general one , that the soldiers might not march but with an officer ; that he did never see those soldiers go on service like naked men , but they had such armes as were fit for soldiers ; that he hath seen them armed with muskets , swords , and such furniture . that they have meat and drink from the party they lie on , though ( for his own part ) he had never meales meat from him . being asked , whether they lie on the parties lands ? he answered , for that purpose they go . being asked , on how many several persons he had done it ? and , whether it was ordinarily done ? he answered , that he had done it on several occasions ; and that he was afraid that sometimes he should be complained of to my lord deputy , in not putting it in execution , when the parties have thought he the deponent hath been favourable without cause : that he had , on several occasions , executed his command ; as namely , he caused soldiers to be laid on one francis ditton , likewise on one conolly , and on luke borne , as he takes it , and some others , whereof he doth not remember the particulars : but , those men could not be brought in by any other meanes , that he knew . being asked , whether it hath been done ordinarily on all occasions , and on persons of quality as well as others ? he answered , that when he had my lord deputies warrant in a general way , he never made any difference of persons . being asked , whether by horse or foot ? he answered , never horse that he knew of , unless in case of necessity , when no foot was to be had near them ; and , that was but once . being asked , whether the number was left to his discretion , or a certain number assigned ? he answered , the warrant sayes , he shall raise so many , as shall be thought fit in the discretion of the sergeant . being asked , hath this been executed on several parts of the kingdom ? he answered , yes ; as well in one part of the kingdom as another , when the occasion served . being asked , whether it was done by himself only , or another ? he answered , there was none but himself , till the lord deputy , for the better service of his majesty , was pleased to direct another . being asked , whether my lord deputy ever spake to him , about the complaints made of him ? he answered , never , in good faith ; and he thinks my lord will clear him of that . being asked , was there not complaints made of his showing favour ? he answered , he must confess there was . being asked , what he said on that occasion ? he answered , sometimes my lords secretary would demand , why he would not put the warrant in execution ? and he ( this deponent ) would say , they were poor men : but , it never came to my lords hands , so far as he could remember . being asked , on my lord of straffords motion , what number of soldiers he commonly laid , and what was the greatest number usually ? he answered , that the greatest number was five and an officer ; but , for the most part , or , or ; but , of late , he hath heard of more . being asked , whether another had not a warrant to the same purpose ? and , how many he had laid ? he answered , he never saw the vvarrant ; but , he hath heard he hath , by vertue of such a vvarrant , laid soldiers , but he knows not how many ; he not looking to the actions of others , but his own : and he wished it had all layen in his power still , and he had done well enough . patrick gough being asked , whether he had seen such a warrant under the hand and seal of my lord of strafford , whereby the soldiers were assessed , and under whose hand ? he answered , he had seen a vvarrant , signed by my lord vventworth on the top , and a seal to it , directed to the sergeant savill , to the same purpose : that an affidavit made to him of the absence of the contemptor of the first vvarrant , he might lay soldiers on the land ; and that he made search for it , and saw it in secretary littles book , but it was long agoe . being asked , what he knew of the execution of this vvarrant ? upon whom ? how many ? and , upon what occasion ? he answered , it was a constant course , on a command , and affidavit made of serving a vvarrant , to the pursivant , on the parties failing , an attachment was granted to the sergeant , and a dormant vvarrant , that on his not finding him , he might lay soldiers on the land ; this was constantly practised during my lords government , as he obsered ; and particularly , upon one richard butler in the county of typerary last summer : and , no other cause could he learn or know , but not giving obedience to my lord of straffords orders , the original contempt . being interrogated , what insolencies he had known committed by soldiers in this case ? he answered , that he had heard , soldiers were left on one bernes land , and they took other mens cattel that grazed on the lands , and killed them , and burnt part of the house ( as he was told ) and broke up the hutches where he had his corn , and sent it to the next market-town to buy beer for them . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) whether in his vvarrant any command was given to take other mens goods ? he answered , he believed no such word was exprest in the vvarrant . being asked , whether there was not authority to lay soldiers ? and , what was meant by laying of soldiers ? he answered , the vvarrant imports , that , on their default , or absence , the sergeant at armes may lay soldiers on the land , there to lye to feed on the contemptors goods , and live there till he surrender his body to the sergeant at armes . then the sergeant gives notice to the soldiers , that the party is come in , and they go to their garrison . richard welsh sworn : being interrogated , whether he had seen a warrant under my lord of straffords hand , for laying of soldiers ? he answered , that he had seen my lord deputies hand signed ( if it was his hand ) wentworth : as he had seen it to many orders , being very well acquainted with his hand : that he had seen his hand to such a warrant ; that the man that showed him the vvarrant , was one of my lord deputies troopers ( by name patrick brady , who told him ) he was going to fetch soldiers by direction of sergeant savill , to lay on one francis dillon , who was in contempt at this bradyes own suite : that the occasion he showed him it , was ; that brady was indebted to him ( the deponent ) and he ( the deponent ) intending to petition my lord against him , brady desired him to forbear it , for he had a good way to get money , and shewed him the warrant ; he ( the deponent ) saw it under my lord deputies hand and seal . being asked , what was the suit ? he said , the suit was on a paper-petition ; for ( as he remembers ) l. and so dillon falling into contempt , a warrant was issued to the pursivant , and so , according to the practice , the soldiers were laid on him . being asked , what was the effect of the warrant under my lord deputies hand ? he answered , that the effect of the warrant was , that the sergeant at armes should bring upon the delinquents ( such as was incontempt ) out of the next garrison , soldiers , with an officer , and lay them on the delinquents lands , till he had rendered his body . patrick cleare sworn : was interrogated , what execution he knew of my lord of straffords warrant , to lay soldiers ? he answered , that he had seen no execution done : but , he had a letter sent out of the countrey , by a gentlewomans son , and she desired him ( the deponent ) to petition , to have soldiers that were laid on her land discharged , it being onely for a contempt , in not appearing . that he got a copy of the petition , her name being agnes white , and therein she petition'd my lord of strafford to have them discharged ; and said , she was very old , and would die , if she submitted her self to any sergeant at armes . the order was , that upon an affidavit he would give other direction . the son made affidavit , that she was years old : on that , an order was made , requiring sergeant savill to take off the soldiers , and trouble her no more , she paying him his fees. and he knew further , that sergeant pigott having an attachment against iohn barrow , who was gone away , by reason of certain cruelties , sent after him , by secretary little , who threatned to put soldiers on him , if he came not to compound with him for his fees. being asked , how far the old woman lived from dublin ? he answered , in the county of kilkenny , or miles from dublin , and this was four years ago . being interrogated , what the contempt was ? he answered , that the petitioner said , he was dammaged l. by not performing covenants ; so she was commanded to pay l. or else to shew cause to the contrary : she was an old woman , alwayes on her bed , and did not appear , not knowing what belonged to law. affidavit being made , that she appeared not , nor gave satisfaction , an attachment issued to the pursivant ; the pursivant could not find her , on affidavit . the sergeant at armes goes for her , and , not finding her , the first or second time ; he layes soldiers on her : and there they remained eating and drinking three or four weeks , till he got them discharged . and he heard by the sergeant at armes , that this was very usually and ordinarily done . being asked , if pigott had such a warrant ? he answered , he did not see the warrant , but pigott himself said , he would lay soldiers on barrow , if he did not submit and pay fees. nicholas ardah sworn : being required to deliver what he knew concerning laying of soldiers in case of paper-petitions . he answered , that he had heard of many , but never saw any but one , which was in the city of dublin ; one tho. cusacke of dublin was seized by sergeant savill , with corporal hamond , and some others of my lord lieutenants troops , for not obeying an order within these two years and a half : that he saw the horse , and the pistols at their sadles ; there were two or three as he takes it . being asked in what case it was ? he answered , a merchant of manchester , trusted with money , or commodities , and being not able to pay him , he sued him , and so far , that he got a warrant ; and this was before my lord deputy , on a paper-petition . being asked , how long the soldiers remained there ? he answered , some three or four dayes , till the man surrendred himself to the sergeant at armes . edmond berne being sworn , and interrogated , how many soldiers were laid upon himself , by vertue of this warrant ? and , for what cause ? and , what contempt ? and , what was the loss ? and , whether the soldiers were armed ? he , in his several answers , deposed , that there came to his house ten of my lord deputies own foot-guard , and an officer , in the county of wicklowe in ireland , in the bernes countrey , miles from dublin ; that it was on the th or th of october , , and they came on his land , under colour of a contempt , and there lay dayes : in which time , they consumed and devoured all his goods and chattels they found at that time : they thrasht out three ricks of corn ; one of wheat , one of rye , the other of oates , which were very well worth l. at the least : after they had thrashed this corn , and devoured the victuals they found in the house and about the house , they sent some of this corn to a market-town within three miles , called bray , and that they sold for tobacco , aquavitae , some beer , and victuals for themselves : and they would not be content with this , to satisfie themselves on his goods , but they must bring in the women of the town , and made the women drink , and offered to ravish them , but that some of the town came in to rescue them : that after they had consumed all his goods , they broke up his tenants doors , killed their geese , their hens , and destroyed their victuals ; and when they had destroyed all his tenants goods , they came on the town-people which were not his tenants , and broke open their doors , and struck them , and eat their victuals , and killed their geese and hens ; and after they came to his tenant , one timothy wells , they came on his land , and understanding he was his tenant , they took away english sheep , and brought them to his house , and there , that night , they killed two of them : that his tenant understanding them to be there , referred himself to the lord chief justice of ireland then , and petitioned , to this purpose , that is , my lord dillon , and sir christopher wainsford , that mr. wells , which was his tenant , had an order to take away his sheep from the soldiers : and then the soldiers reply'd , that since he had got an order to take away his sheep , they were sorry they did not kill more of them : that they were not content to have wood ( which was for his the deponents own fuell , and to destroy that ) but they burnt his partitions , his very house-door , sold his trunck , his bedsteads , his dining-table , and all they could light on in his house ; that after this time , he was not able to keep house , but left his wife and children to the courtesie of his friends , and was fain to flie his countrey , and to serve in the low countreys as a soldier ; that he may very well take it on his oath , that this loss was at least l. out of his way , for he was not able to sow the fallowes , and was fain to break up house and home , and was never able to keep house since . that this was upon colour of a contempt , upon a petition preferred against him to my lord deputy , by mr. thomas archibald for a pretended debt of a matter of ten pounds , and these soldiers were armed with swords , musquets , and halbeards some of them . being interrogated ( on my lord of strafford's motion ) whether he the lord strafford was then in ireland ? he answered , that before the soldiers came on his land , my lord deputy came to england . but mr. palmer observed , that the warrant was from my lord deputy , and mr. palmer added , that all will refer to the time of the warrant dormant . being asked , what warrant was shewed for laying on these numbers of foot ? he answered , that he durst not come in their sight . but mr. maynard observed , that this was one of the men savill did lay soldiers on , and therefore it behoved to be by that warrant . being asked , whether the debt might not have been compounded for l. and why he would not rather pay l. than suffer prejudice to l ? he answered to the first , yes . to the second , that he conceived the debt not lawfully due . mr. robert kennedy being sworn and interrogated , what he knew of the laying of soldiers on the said berne , and the occasion , and what they did . he answered , that one archibald preferred a petition against berne , for a pretended debt to my lord lieutenant , and ( as his usual course was ) his lordship would referr the matter to the two next justices of peace uninteressed , and they to determine the matter by consent , if they could ; else to certify that the party bringing the petition to him , the deponent desired him to draw the warrant according to my lord-lieutenants order . they sent a warrant for berne , who appearing , they examined the business , and it was so trivial , that he the deponent , desired them to compound it . berne stood on it , that the plaintiff ought to have none , and would pay him none . they certified my lord lieutenant . after this certificate , he ( the deponent ) heard not of it , till he heard that soldiers came to this gentlemans land , and hearing of it , and that some tenants of his the deponents were wronged by it ; he came thither , and some of them he knew , and asking by what authority they were there ? we come ( say they ) by warrant of the sergeant at arms mr. pigott , that the deponent thereupon said . mr. pigott hath no warrant ; yes , say they , my lord lieutenants , and he directed us not to leave , till berne delivered his body for a contempt . that he the deponent answered , though you have a warrant for lying on his land , you have no warrant to destroy his goods , for they were selling his corn , and loaded the horses that went through the town . that there was to the number of or of my lords guard , armed with pikes , and guns , and swords . but my lord of strafford he thinks was not then in ireland , he was newly gone . being asked ( on my lord of strafford's motion ) whether he saw the warrant under pigotts hand ? he answered , he did not , but the soldiers told him , pigott laid them on the land , by virtue of my lord deputies warrant . being asked , how long pigott had been a sergeant ? he answered , about ten years . and whether there was any more than two ? he answered , no more that attended the state ; and mr. kenneday , added , that he wondred at the course , for he never heard of any such course before my lord of straffords time . mr. palmer here observed , that they were my lord deputies own guard , which could not be but originally from him . mr. robert little , my lord of straffords secretary being sworn , was interrogated several questions , viz. whether he had made out any warrant by the lord of strafford's direction , and under his hand and seal to pigott , or any else , for raising soldiers after this manner . he answered , that he doth not know that pigott hath any such warrant ; nor doth he remember any such warrant passed the office if it did , it was by precedents of former times , but in good faith , he doth not remember it . whether he made any such warrant to pigott to his knowledge ? answered , that he never made any , or heard of any , nor knew of any . was one made to savill ? answer , he never made that to savill , and he cannot tell whether there was one to savill , or not ? was there an entrie of any warrant in his book to that purpose ? answer , that he did not enter them at any time , nor did he ever see any such entrie or warrant . mr. palmer inferred from hence , that he said the same for savill that he said for pigott , and yet how publique a thing this of savill's was their lordships have heard , and it could not but come to his knowledge , at least his ear . and mr. maynard , observed , he swears that he never made any such warrant , but if any were made , it was according to former precedents . but my lord of strafford answered , that if any says he cannot tell , 't is as much as he can say for another mans act . lord ranalaugh being interrogated , what he knew of this warrant , of laying of soldiers , upon whom ? and how long ? his lordship answered , that he had heard something of it heretofore , but more particularly in november last , when being at the council-board , a petition was preferred to the then lord deputy and council , by one davis , who dwelt in the county of clare ; and by his petition he set forth , that notwithstanding on a reference from my lord deputy to the judges of assizes , he had obtained a report from him ; yet by combination betwixt his adversary and the sergeant , he had soldiers laid on him , which made him leave his dwelling : that he the ( said lord ranalaugh ) asked the party , how the sergeants came to lay soldiers ? yes saith he , my lord deputy wansford hath made a warrant dormant , and taken a course for it from my lord lieutenant , and from himself , ( as he the lord ranalaugh takes it ) tho positively he could say , that the warrant dormant was the general cause . being asked whether it had been used before , or if it be an innovation ? he answered , that he knew a custome hath been in ireland , for laying soldiers on the relievers of rebels , and for laying of contribution-money , in case of delinquency , or not payment ; or where a return was made by the sheriff , that the kings rents did not come in , these rents being applyed to the payment of the army . the course before my lord of strafford's coming was , that soldiers were laid to constrain such , but in a civil cause between party and party , he never heard of it before in his life . being asked ( on my lord of strafford's motion ) whether ( he the lord ranalaugh was not a captain of the army before the lord of strafford came , and whether he had not commission by soldiers , to levy part of the money due to him , from the deputy and vice-treasurer ? he answered , that before my lord-deputy came into ireland , the course was , as he formerly touched , that where there was arrear of rents to the king , and these rents did not come in to the exchequer , then was assigned for the payment of the king's soldiers , and the acquittances delivered to the captains , on part of their entertainment : and this acquittance out of the exchequer was given by a special warrant from the deputy , and according to that course , his ( the deputies method ) was with other captains , and thus he levied the rent by his own soldiers , by virtue of that warrant . being asked when the money was assessed thus on countreys , was it not by consent of the countrey ? he answered , ( that if he hath not forgotten ) when the gentlemen of ireland were here . they were suitors to the king for several graces , and they obtained several of them from his majesty : among the rest ( if he hath not forgotten ) that in case of non-payment of rents or contribution , soldiers might go , and lye upon the defaulters , mr. palmer observed , that when he speaks of contribution or rent , he speaks not of this course , to compell to obedience on paper-petitions . and so ( he said ) they would conclude with their witnesses , reciting , that their lordships have heard the course taken , to secure that power , my lord of strafford assumed to himself , in hearing of causes . that this usurpation on ordinary courts of justice , to whom it belongs , could not be secured without arms in a warlike manner , to compel obedience . their lordships have heard how it was executed , that if the proceeding had been legal , the proofs of law had been according to the calme and quiet rules of justice , but being an incroached power , it must be executed by force , and arms , and war indeed ( for so it is in substance ) on the subjects of ireland . that this was in time of peace , the troubles of ireland being long since appeased , and the people reduced to the condition of subjects , governed by ordinary laws and magistrates : and now to put an extraordinary power in execution , to compell the subjects by act of hostility , they conceive is within the statute of ed. . a levying of war against our sovereign lord the king within his realm . which is nominally treason in that statute , and shortly for this reason . the king being invested with his sovereign power , whereby they are protected , but this power being ( instead of protection ) used by his ministers to the subversion and destruction of his subjects , doth on the matter , make an invocation on the king himself , this being a bereaving the subjects of the law by which they should live ; dispossessing them by force of arms , in warlike manner , must be a war against himself , that law is of force in ireland , by h. . whereby all the laws made before that time , were made of force there . and by a particular statute made the . h. . this very offence of sessing soldiers by lords , or any others , or any the kings people without their consent , is adjudged treason , and the offender is to be judged a traitor . the statute was read . statutes and ordinances made in a parliament , holden at dublin h. . ch . . an act that no lord or others , shall charge the kings subjects with horse , horsemen , or footmen , without their good will , and by so doing , the offender is a traitor . it is agreed and established , that no lord , or any other , of what condition soever he be , shall bring or lead from henceforth hoblers , kern , or hooded men , neither english rebels , nor irish enemies , nor any other people , nor horse to lye on horseback , or foot to lye on the kings people , but on their own cost , without consent . and if any so do , he shall be adjudged as a traitor . mr. palmer concluded that this hath been done , and how their lordships have heard that this hath been done by soldiers that profess hostility , brought from garrisons , ( the places of war ) in great numbers , and indeed the number left indefinitely to the discretion of the sergeant at arms , in warlike furniture , which is literally true in the case : and so he concluded the article , expecting my lord of strafford's defence . my lord of strafford desired their lordships would be pleased , to give him liberty to look over his notes , and he doubted not but to give their lordships a very clear satisfaction , by the help of almighty god. after a little respite ; his lordship began his defence in substance as followeth . and first , he desired their lordships would please to remember , that if he proved not all things so clearly and fully , the reason was obvious and plain , the shortness of his time , the witnesses being to be fetched out of ireland , and he having none but such as come accidentally . that the other day he read to their lordships , out of sir edward cook 's book , that the customs of ireland are in many things different from the customs of england : that for the things done in ireland , he conceived he was to be judged by the laws and customs of ireland , and not by the laws and customs of this kingdom ; and that his commission was to execue the place of deputy , according to the laws and customs of that kingdom . that what hath been opened to their lordships to be so extraordinary , he must justifie as very ordinary , frequent , and usually exercised by the customs of that kingdom : that in all times the army of ireland , and the officers and soldiers of it , have been the chief hands in executing all the justice of the kingdom , and of bringing that due obedience to the kings authority , that 's necessary , and fit , and due . that if they had not been so used , he thinks ( those who know the state of ireland will acknowledge ) the king's writs had never run in ireland , they being all executed by their power and assistance . first , his lordship undertook to make it appear , that ( in case of bringing in rebels and offendors of that nature , and forcing them to come in ) it had been the ordinary practice of the deputy and council , before his time , to assess soldiers , not only on the party , but the kindred of the partys , till the party be brought in , and yet it is no levying of war for all that . and because his lordship heard much speaking of rebels and traitors , he desired to represent to their lordships , what they be ( viz. ) a company of petit loose fellows that would be here apprehended by a constable . lord robert dillon was called for , and my lord of strafford desired he might be asked , whether it had not been the practice of the deputy and council , to assess soldiers , not only on the persons , but the septs and whole kindred of rebels ? here mr. palmer interposed , that for saving of time , if my lord makes this the case , that soldiers have been laid upon the septs of traitors or rebels , that lye out in woods , and esloigne themselves from the kings protection , whom they call kernes , outlaws , and rebels ; they ( the committee ) will admit the usage , though it will not justifie the case , being expresly against law ; for by a stat. eliz. if any lye out as traitors , or rebels , five of the sept that bears the surname , shall be fined at the council-chamber , but not have soldiers laid on them ; and against a statute there can be no usuage . to which my lord of strafford answered , and these are but ordinary fellows : and he desired their lordships would clearly understand what is meant by rebels , for every petty fellow stealing sheep , and the like , if the party be out in action , they commonly term such rebels . robert lord dillon being asked , whether ordinary fellows in ireland , passed not under the name of rebels ? his lordship answered , that touching this point he hath observed , that when a party hath committed some felony , or unjustifiable act , and withdraws himself into the woods , a proclamation is made , for his coming in by such a time , to render himselfamenable to the law ; and if he then comes not in , but keeps out , in commmon reputation he is accounted a traitor or rebel . sir arthur tyrringham being asked , whether of his knowledge the deputies and council have not frequently sessed soldiers on offenders and rebels , when they could not be brought forth to justice , and what is understood by a rebel in ireland . he answered , that it hath been the ordinary practice ever since he knew that kingdom , since my lord of faulklands being deputy there , and hath been ever practised there , both by him , and the justices that came after him : that ordinary fellows be commonly reputed rebels , with this observation . it is true , that every man is not a rebel , at his first going out , though he be called so ; but the course is first to proclaim them , and if they be not ameneable to law , they be rebels , and so they may be for felonies of a very small value . to prove that most of the kings rents , as well exchequer rents , as composition rents , have been levied by soldiers in all the times of my lord of cork . my lord of strafford desired . iohn conley might be called for ; who being examined , how long since he hath been in ireland : and whether in his time the rents were not col lected by the soldiers and officers of the army ? he answered to the first , years . to the second , that he remembers it very well , that in my lord faulklands time , it was an ordinary course , where the kings rents were due , to send some horse and horsemen , and takeup these rents , and lye on them till they were collected and taken up . so in my lord grandisons time , and in all chichesters time ; and this is all he cansay . henry dillon was called , and first my lord of strafford desired liberty to defend the credit of his witness , as to some exceptions taken to him the other day , and offered the occasion of the order of council-board made against him , to be only this ; that he said , he heard some such thing said , and thereupon was commanded to make an acknowledgement , and to this he was invited and perswaded by my lord dillon , for quietness sake , rather than he should be troubled about so small a matter , and that being granted , he supposed the gentleman stood upright , and was a competent witness in this or any other cause . to which some of the committee for the commons answered , that they except not against the hearing of him , but offer to their lordships memory his acknowledgement , that he spake falsly , as a weakening of his memory . and then , henry dillon being asked , whether he knew not that the exchequer and composition rents , upon failing of payment , have been levied by the army , on the appointment of the deputy , or chief governor ? he answered , that he had known several acquittances put into the hands of sir thomas dutton , for rents due on certain parcels of land in the county of longford , that were not paid into the exchequer by a certain time , for which a-fore-time , pursivants issued out against the tenants ; that himself was one of the tenants , and being out of town , sir thomas dillon seized three of his horses , at his the said dillons house , and there they remained till he came to town for s. d. this being in the time of my lord of corke and my lord of ely being justices . being asked , as to the contribution and composition-rents ? he answered , that some years before that , in my lord faulklands time when he lived in the county of longford , that were not paid , he remembers l. was granted on the coming of sir iohn b. — into the kingdom of ireland , and afterwards , sixscore thousand pound toward , maintaining of the kings army , and there was a troop of horse of sir robert — sent into the county of — but he knows not whether this be the money called contribution-money ; that he was then sheriff of that county , and had direction sent to sesse the soldiers on them that refused to pay the money . that at that time he conceived that was not so fully understood by the countrey , that they should have paid it , and himself and others did except against it ; conceiving the money was not granted farther , than as they would willingly pay . and valerian — on the statute urged , of assessing soldiers , refused to assess soldiers on the warrant of my lord of faulkland ; and thereon was sent for to the castle , the soldiers sent to his house and remained there , as long as he had provision ; and after that , from his house they were assessed on several delinquents , as the soldiers pleased to billet themselves ; and the foot-company of sir arthur tyrringham was then in that county . and one night he remembers , were assessed on his own house , because he did not pay the money : but he remembers not any thing of the composition-rents . being asked whether he had not seen a warrant to this purpose , subscribed by the chief governor ? he answered , that being sheriff of the county of longford in . or . there were warrants directed from my lord of cork , and my lord chancellor , and he thinks under the hands of the rest of the lords of the board , for levying moneys allotted to the soldiers , and he had three warrants himself , and by virtue thereof levied money , and paid the money to the troops there , under the hands of my lord of cork , and lord of ely , and the council . sir arthur tyrringham being asked whether he had not received order , with a warrant , for attaching a person in case of debt , and for laying soldiers on him in case he paid it not , and who was the person ? he answered , that he had ; and the sheriff of the county brought the warrant from my lord of faulkland , to lay some of his men on a debtor there , till he paid the debt ; ; that these soldiers were laid , being under his command , and stayed till the debt was paid , at the charge of the party ; and he tells this particular in it , that makes him remember the whole circumstance : the debt was very small , not above or s. the sheriff bringing him this warrant , he did not a little wonder at the matter , to require soldiers for levying such a sum . but it was then so ordinary and frequent , that it was seldom denied on any reasonable occasion : the men stayed there some or days , when the party had enough , he sends to him the said arthur , to recall the men ; that he told him he would , if he the said party had satisfied the money ; the party answered , he had not yet , but he would ; that he the said sir arthur told him , what a strange man are you , that will keep a charge on your self ? where , if you had paid it the first hour , i would have withdrawn the men. why , sayes he ? i do not care for giving half a score men a meales meat . being asked ( on mr. palmers motion ) whether it was a debt between party and party , or the kings debt ? he answered , he could not tell : but , the sheriffs name was fleming . being asked , under whose hand was the warrant ? he answered , under my lord of faulklands hand , otherwise he would have levied no money . lord rainalaugh being asked , whether before my lord of straffords coming into ireland , the kings debts and rents , as well exchequer as composition-money , were not raised by assessing of soldiers ? he answered , that he remembers in the lord justices time , my lord of corke , and lord of ely ( the kings rents being slowly paid in ) they did usually give acquittances out of the exchequer , to the captains and officers of the several companies ; and , if they were not paid by some time limitted , and if the sheriff , or the collector , did not bring in the money , the last resort was to fall on the defaulters , by assessing soldiers on them , and there to lie till the money was paid . here my lord of strafford , conceiving he had spoken of contribution and composition-rents , desired my lord rainalaugh might repeat what he said . thereupon his lordship answered , that he thought what he said he was sure of , and might justly say : that for the exchequer-rents , and contribution payments ( for the compositions he would say nothing ) the course was this . that for the exchequer-rents , the vice-treasurer gave out his acquittances , these were assigned to some captains , whose turn it was for payment , and they , accompanied with a warrant from the deputies , to constrain the payment by some few soldiers . hereupon my lord of strafford observed ; that this cause would seem strange in england . and whereas my lord rainalaugh spake of contribution-money , mr. palmer humbly desired , he might be asked , whether the raising of it by soldiers , was not so agreed to in the countrey ? for my lord of straffords own answer sayes , the countrey choose rather , that on delinquency it should be so levied than otherwise ; and , if it be by consent , the force of the statute is taken away . my lord rainalaugh being asked accordingly ? his lordship answered , that he had already spoken to that purpose , and he believed , some of the committee that were there had the particular instance to produce . being required to name them in whose hands it was ; his lordship said , in mr. plunkets , or mr. brown. being asked , when this course began ? he answered , he did not remember the time ; but , he thought , in . on certain of the agents out of england . my lord of strafford did here offer , that if he might have read the antient book in my lord faulklands time , he could have showed sir tho. wayneman sent up and down , to this and that county , to fetch in the composition-rents , and that they have been thus levyed . his lordship added , that the next point he should have endeavoured to prove , was , that the gentry that granted the six score thousand pounds for supply of the army in my lord faulklands time , agreed , that the same should not be brought into the kings exchequer , but be levyed by soldiers : nor be mentioned in any accompt of the kings , least it should be mentioned to their prejudice : but , let the gentlemen that manages the evidence , labour to prove this . and mr. palmer declared again , that they agreed to it . whence my lord of strafford observed , that it concerned him both to make good the truth of his answer , and to tell their lordships , how narrowly he is moved to look to himself ; for , though they now agree it to be done by the agents , and practised by them , yet the first part of this killing charge is , that he should traiterously and wickedly devise , to subdue the subjects of that realm , by levying money on them . but mr. palmer explained himself ; that they did admit the contribution to be levied by the agreement of the agents , and by consent , but they intend not to admit , that it did extend to a practice by his predecessors , for that it was formerly done , they did in no sort admit . and mr. pym added , that they do not charge him with levying the contribution money , but with levying money after the contribution , was paid , which was more than the contribution , but that is not in issue . so my lord of strafford concluded that point ; that the contribution , for eight years before his coming , was levied by soldiers , is admitted ; so that for all the things concerning that contribution , he did no more than was agreeable to the agents themselves . his lordship then desired , that the second article of my lord of faulklands instructions might be read , by which he was expresly appointed to lay soldiers on such , as paid not their rent to the king. and it was read. article ii. for the collection of our rents , in cases of default ; that first a summoning process shall issue : secondly , the pursivant sent : and lastly , if this be not sufficient ( in case the same be not levyed ) then our vice-treasurer , by warrant of our deputy and council , shall appoint a competent number of soldiers of the next ayding , and garrison , to collect the rents of the charge of the parties complained of ; having care , that no man be burdened with a greater number of soldiers , than the service shall necessarily require . mr. palmer desiring , that the first article of these instructions might be read , it was read accordingly . at the humble request of our subjects , we are graciously pleas'd to direct , for the better preservation and ease of our subjects , the soldiers shall be called in , &c. my lord of strafford from his proofes inferred , that he had made it clearly appear , that , notwithstanding the statute cited , it had been the frequent use and custome of ireland , to assess soldiers on septs of offenders , for the levying of exchequer-rents , levying debts , as appears in one particular case which is left in dublin , for the levying of the composition rents by troops of horse and horsemen ; and for the contribution , that state gives no difference , betwixt sessing for the kings rents , and for contempts and disobedience to justice , and certainly it would be high-treason : for , if the deputy had power to assess the soldiers , without being guilty in the former case , certainly his assessing of soldiers on contemners , to bring them to be ameneable to the kings justice , cannot be by any construction made treason in him : so that though it comes not to the particular individuum , yet it comes thus far , that sessing of the soldiers is a power that was in the deputies of ireland , and so he trusts was by the law of that land , without making them traytors . his lordship did further alleadg , that when he came into ireland , he found that none of the kings rents were levyed in other manner ; paper-attachments being given unto the captains , and they , on these assignements , levying the money for their entertainments : that he was willing to remedy this , being not much in love with the course ; and , since his time , it was never practised , the rents being brought in before it comes to that ; though if they had not been paid sooner , it must have come to that : and therefore he desired he might show them a proclamation , issued within three months after he came into ireland , to show , that he brought not the custom with him , but found it there . which proclamation was read , being dated th december , . and imported . that whereas the surplusage of his majesties revenue is appointed to be applyed towards the payment of the army , thereby to give the countrey more ease , &c. to which proclamation divers of the counsellors names were added , and were now read. so that if sessing of soldiers , in any case , be treason , certainly it is in this ; posito , that if the law be good , it equally goes to both . and so he conceives he hath shewed the use that hath been , and must be of the officers of the army , being the most ready way to procure obedience to the kings courts . his lordship observed , that the gentlemen at the barr waved part of his charge , though there was a book in print , wherein he appears to be charged in a trayterous manner , to subdue , &c. he waves the article . and though they decline it , he besought their lordships he might give an account of this particular , least it should stick with their lordships , when they read the article , and find no answer to it . but the committee opposed it , as conceiving it not fit he should answer to an article to which he was not pressed ( specially since they have not wholly laid it aside ) and that he had notice yesterday , that they intended not , for the present , to proceed upon it ; which my lord of strafford confessed , and gave thanks to the house of commons for it . his lordship then proceeded in his defence , setting forth to their lordships , that the first instruction to my lord of faulkland is no limitation to him , it being not good , as to him , unless it were given him , which he mentions onely by the way . for the warrants charged to be by him issued , and the execution of them , his lordship desires to free himself from the testimony given by mr. berne and mr. kennedy , concerning a very foul misdemeanour committed by some soldiers , under pretence of coming to see the kings writ executed , and his justice complyed withal , before he comes to that , that concerns mr. savill . . it appears , these soldiers were laid when he was not in ireland ; so that he is not answerable to any thing deposed by these gentlemen , further than that he gave a warrant for it to mr. pigott . ii. he denies that ever pigott had any such warrant from him , nor is any proofe to that purpose offered : therefore it is not to be laid to his accompt . iii. only patrick clear ( sayes pigott ) threatned to lay soldiers on some if they would not obey : but , because he threatned , therefore he had such a warrant , is ( under favour ) no consequence ; men commonly threaten most , when they have least to shew . iv. mr. kenneday sayes directly , pigott had done what he did by direction ; but , in express termes , he sayes , he never saw the warrant . then there remained only mr. savill's warrant . this warrant is not showed , nor comes it in judgment against him : and though some testimonies are given , that they have seen such a warrant , for assessing soldiers , &c. yet he conceives it very hard , that the warrant should be the ground of convincing him of treason , and yet the warrant not be shown , for what the grounds are , and what the limitations may be do not appear : and , if there were such a warrant , it is long since it passed from him ; but , it is not shown ; and therefore to convince him in modo & formâ is very hard to be done ; for what may be in it to qualifie , or what amiss , no body knows . but , to the proofs , his lordship observed , that the proofs are very scant ; this great mighty war made on the king and his people , in breach of the statute cited , is one of the poorest wars that ever was made in christendome ; for , last summer , one sayes , he knew soldiers laid on one man. the sergeant sayes , he never laid above , sometimes , sometimes ; and that this should be heightned to the making of a war against the king and his people , seems to be a very great strain put upon it , and more he hopes than the matter will bear . that it was never complained of to him , all the while he was in ireland , in respect of any manner of prejudice sustained by it . that if there be such a warrant , he is glad it hath been so moderately executed , that no worse consequence hath come of it , than their lordships have heard . but , he shall make it appear , that the sergeant at armes is a publick officer ; and , what warrant soever he hath from him , it is not in relation to him , but to the execution and procuring obedience to all other the kings courts of justice , as well as those of the deputies jurisdiction ; and , it was onely to enable him the better to secure the kings right : and he desired , that nicolas ardah be examined , whether he be not an officer of the exchequer in ireland , and whether he knows of any particular sessing of soldiers by the sergeant at armes , before my lord of straffords government ? and being askt severally these questions ; he answered , to the first ; that he hath some imployment in the exchequer , and was imployed in a commission of church-bounds . and , that about the second year of his majesties reign , there was one tho. fitzgerard high sheriff of a county , that had not perfected his accompts , and not appeared to the pursivant ; the lord chancellor that now is , desired the rest to assist him to move my lord of faulkland to lay horse on him ; and that the party was brought in within a short time after ; but , whether by soldiers , he knows not ; but he heard there was a warrant . mr. savill being asked , whether the warrant to him granted was not agreeable to former precedents ? he answered , that he never saw any other warrant of the same nature : but , he hath heard by him that was his predecessor ( now a captain of the army ) that he had received a warrant from my lord of faulkland , to sess soldiers on the land of tho. fitzgerard , who had refused to come to pass accompts . mr. henry dillon being asked , whether he knew of any such warrant formerly granted ? and what relation the sergeant at armes hath to other courts ? he answered , that he conceives , the sergeant at armes is an officer , as well to the court of exchequer , as to the chancery , on the last process of contempt . the last process is a writ to the sergeant , to attach a man , whether betwixt party and party , or concerning the king ; and that he had spoken with thimbleby , sergeant at armes , whether he did so in his own right , or as deputy ? and asking him , what he would do if the warrant was disobey'd ? and he pretended he would assess soldiers ; and being a scholar at — years , he heard one had soldiers sessed on him for disobedience to the sergeant at armes ; but , what the particular was he doth not know . here mr. palmer speaking some words , which my lord of strafford interpreted an interruption ; his lordship desired , that no hasty words might be misinterpreted , he being for his life and children ; and added , the gentlemen will do well not to put him out of his way , but let him speak the poor few things he can for himself , and then leave them to their lordships wisdom . and then proceeded . so he supposed there could be no such severe construction put upon this warrant , that it should be adjudged a levying of war against the king and his people , when it appeares to be the using of half a dozen , sometimes two or three soldiers to lye on refractory persons , and bring them to be conformable to justice ; that the kings law might be obeyed , without any treasonable or corrupt intention whatsoever : and , he hopes their lordships will have a more favourable and compassionate consideration , than to judge him a traytor for such a piece of business , accompanied with all these circumstances . but he added , that some wayes he is more qualified then an ordinary person , by reason he had the honor to be his majesties deputy ; and , by his commission , had power to pursue rebels , and to use the kings army for punishing of rebels , or securing the publick peace of the realm , as in his discretion he should think fit ; and , that he conceives , a warrant , though there had been no president in the case ( but with these accompany'd ) cannot be laid on him as a crime . for this , he refers himself to his commission , which had been formerly read , and therefore trusts this will not fall into their lordships judgment as a high treason , he being to govern according to the customes of the realm : there is a statute h. . cap. . whereby it was ordained , enacted , and estabished by authority of that parliament , that from that time forwards there be no peace nor war undertaken in the land , without the deputies licence ; but , all such war and peace to be made by the lieutenants , for the time being ; and this comes in time , after the statute of h. . this was never complayn'd of as a fault , and no ill consequence followed on it . if a man shall enter by force , and wrongfully keep away possession , that may be as well said to be a levying of war as this ; and yet a forcible entry is familiarly punish'd in the star-chamber , but not spoken of as a treason . as to the statute in ireland , of h. . cap. . an act , that no lord , or other , shall charge the kings subject , &c. he conceives , he cannot be brought within compass of this statute : for , i. he hath heard it said , that the king cannot be concluded in any statute , unless he be particularly named , and consequently not his chief governor : for , these words , no lord , or any other , of what condition soever , &c. must imply , a condition of a lord , or one under a lord , not a condition above a lord , as the chief governor is . ii. he shall not lead , or bring . he hath neither brought , nor lead them into action ; for the sergeant at armes hath done it , though under his warrant . iii. it speaks of bringing english rebels , or irish enemies , or hooded men , hoblers , kernes , &c. but , that sending of the kings soldiers to apprehend and attach such refractory persons should be within the statute , is a stretching of the words of it very far . iv. notwithstanding this law , the chief governor hath alwayes used to assess soldiers ( and practice is the best interpreter of lawes ) and yet his acts have not , by this statute , been concluded treason ; since they have compounded for it , and they pay a great rent ; the composition rents paid for their discharge from the assessing of the army , being one of the greatest revenues before his coming there . and , if their lordships will have it proved , there be few of the irish but know it ; and , in conaught the king may take , or leave as he pleases . though he shall not insist on it ( as desiring never to depart from their lordships judgment , nor thinking himself more safe in any other ; therefore freely and voluntarily he puts himself under their lordships censure , for his life , as for his death : but , if he should insist on it , admitting all this , that it was a treason by the statute-law of ireland , yet he is not tryable for it here : but , he makes no use of it to that purpose ; but , had he a thousand lives , he would humbly lay them every one at their lordships feet . he added , that it is a very heavy case , that such old laws as these should be started , in this manner , when the practice hath been quite contrary ; and kindled , to destroy him and his posterity at a blow . but , he trusts , god almighty hath provided better for him , by their lordships favour and justice : for , though the gentlemen at the bar are much more learned than himself ; yet , it may be , they are not so well read in the irish-statutes , as they be in the english : besides , he is most confident , he shall make it appear that statute is repealed . and , if it falls in his judgment , their lordships ( he hopes ) will find , he had reason to think , what he shall offer , might be available ; and , that their lordships will not be offended if he mistakes the law ; and this , as in other things , he desires the advantage of by counsel , concerning these points of law , before he be finally concluded . first , by the statute of ed. . ca. . ( and , had these gentlemen seen these statutes , he believes they would never put it in charge against him . ) whereby it is enacted , confirmed , and ratified , by authority of the said parliament , that the said statute be adjudged and approved in force and strength ; and the said statute may be of force in this land from the th day of march next ; and that from henceforth the said act , and all statutes and acts , made by authority of parliament , within the kingdom of england , be adjudged and ratified from the said th day of march. this comes in time , after the statute of treason of h. . and , ratifying all the former statutes of england , ratifies the th of e. . in england , which is the statute of treason : and , h. . which sayes , nothing shall be treason , but what is said to be treason within the said statute of e. . so that nothing can be treason in ireland , but what is treason by e. . or h. . or something subsequent , for these being confirmed later , do take away the statute of h. . secondly , by the statute of h. . c. . and this is a repeal in judgements , far better then his own . the former was for another purpose . by this , all the statutes made in england before that time , are brought to be laws within ireland ; and , all laws contrary to these laws are hereby repealed . but , the law urged by those gentlemen is against the laws of ed. . and h. . and consequently is repealed very clearly ; and , the words are these in effect ; it tells of the benefit and advantage that might come to them , after the english laws should be brought in ; and , if any statute have been made contrary to them , the same to be annulled void , and of none effect . and , that it hath been so taken and conceived , that that law is repealed , he hath , as he conceives , a judgment in parliament clearly on his side , to clear him , as to this treason , that the deputy hath power to assess soldiers , in cases where he shall think convenient . it is a power , which ( god forbid ) any many should exercise , but with all fair intention , and mildness that possibly can be ; and he speaks it , not to draw any inconvenience on that kingdom ( he being willing to spend his life for them , rather than do them any hurt ) nor will he carry from this bar the remembrance of any thing of their unkindness , in prosecution ( he means not them that are members of this house : ) praeter gratuitas cicatrices , and will never look the worse on them he vowes to god. the statute is eliz. ca. . being an act for taking away captainship , and all exactions belonging thereunto from the lords and great men. whereas , most gracious soveraign lady , the lords and chieftaines of this realm , in the time of desolation of iustice , have arrogated to themselves absolute and regal authority , &c. for remedy whereof , your faithful subjects most humbly beseech it may be enacted , &c. that no earl , viscount , baron , lord , &c. dwelling within this realm , shall assume , &c. the name of captain of any countrey , except such as hath , or shall have the same by letters-patents from your majesty , &c. or by the name of captain , or therwise exact for the finding of him , or them , their horse , foot of or upon any of your majesties subjects , tax , sess , subsidie , &c. , nor shall call togethe people of the same countrey to treat , conclude , and agree for making war or peace , &c. sess , nor lead the people , &c. without the great seal , or warrant from the lord deputy , &c. upon pain to every earl , viscount , baron , or lord , &c. for every time l. of lawful money of ireland . whence he inferred , that here is a commission , that the deputy and chief governors have power to assess , and yet are no traitors ; a penalty which they would have spared , had they thought that law to have been in force . so that as he hath been free in his heart from any treasonable designe towards his majesty or his people , and as he hath been innocent to god almighty within doors , so from this statute he shall stand clear abroad , and this cannot be brought as to this case , to convince him of treason . and his lordship did recall one thing in the lord dillons testimony , ( which he had formerly omitted ) that the assessing of soldiers was on men being in rebellion for any unjustifyable act. and so his lordship conceived , there remains no more for him to do at this time , but to answer that objection . that this proceeding of his , was treason , by edw. . though he had thought treason had been like felony in this respect ; that there must be a felonious intent to make felony , and so to make treason , there must be a treasonable intent . and he said ( god knows ) he had no treasonable intent in all this , for if he had a mind to have raised war against the king and his people , surely he should never have done it by laying two or three soldiers on a private man , and then taking them off again ; and is this that levying of war against the king and his people , that is meant in the irish statute of edw. ? the words of which statute his lordship read , viz. if any man levy war against the king in his realm , or adhere to his enemies , &c. he appeals to their lordships , desiring them to lay it to themselves , and tell him whether or poor soldiers sent in this manner to bring in a man , that will not be lyable to the kings justice , could by any construction , be brought to be a war levied against the king and his people ? which , said he , if it be an error , he knew it was no treason , for he had thought it had been for the honor and authority , and justice of the king , and not done as an enemy to him . and therefore all laid together , though he must needs say , men are dark towards themselves , and towards their own cases , and less able to judge , than in the case of other men ; in truth , under favour , withall humility , and submission to their lordships better judgements , he cannot believe nor fear , but for any thing proved this day against him , as he is clear in his heart from all treasons , and treasonable intentions towards the king and his people ; so he stands clear from treason upon this charge , not only in respect of the irish statute , but likewise the english statute ; and he shall beseech their lordships , when it comes to its time , they will give his council leave to urge these things for him , who he is sure will be able to do it with far greater reason and strength than himself , it being out of his profession . here his lordship took notice , that there was another part of the charge which he desired to speak to : but mr. palmer said , that was subsequent , and not yet come to . to which his lordship answered , that he should do all things without offence , only so long as he doth mannerly move any thing for his clearing , he hopes he may do it . and so the defence was concluded . and then mr. palmer replyed in substance as followeth . that their lordships have heard a very long defence , made by my lord of strafford , and that he would not apply himself to inforce any thing by circumstances , but to represent the truth , and to avoid those things offered by way of answer , for most part of that may be confessed , and yet avoided . whereas my lord of strafford hath made the greatest part of his defence in matter of fact from usage , their lordships may please to consider , that there can be no legal usage contrary to an act of parliament , made before time of memory , as e. . in england , and h. . in ireland , much less can there be usage for committing of treason . the usage insisted on , is first , for soldiers being assest on septs , till rebels and traitors not apprehendible , were brought in ; and by rebels , his lordship would have understood , not rebels against the king and state , but petit offenders and felons , and for that did examine witnesses : but the witnesse says , that when such had committed felony , and withdrawn themselves into woods , a proclamation went out to call them in , and if then they came not in , they were esteemed rebels , and soldiers were laid on their septs , which is not to lay soldiers on subjects in time of peace , when they will not conform to his private orders . the stat. eliz. describes what the laying soldiers on the sept was , viz. when outlaws and rebels lye in the woods , and will not be apprehended with the ordinary arm of justic , then five of the best of the sept shall be fined , but not , that soldiers shall be laid on them . and this being a statute and lately made , must needs give the rise to this laying of soldiers on the septs by the council-board , instead of a fine ; so this is no justification or excuse , it not bringing a full answer home to the present case ; nor is this of right to be justified . the next usage was concerning the kings rents , which mr. conley only extends beyond the time of my lord of faulkland , he speaks of it in the time of my lord grandison and chichester , yet it was no positive testimony , and he was an old man , and his evidence uncertain for those times . besides , there was no account given of the certain reason , whether by a legal process or no : for there might be due process awarded , and a writ of assistance , to carry the power of the countrey , and so the thing be done by legal authority ; and therefore since it cannot be applyed to any rule , it must be intended to be an illegal power , if at all . the rest were all for rents in the time of my lord of faulkland . the instructions were produced by my lord of strafford himself in time . which was before my lord of faulkland went out of that government . and by these instructions there is an agreement , and it is taken to be for the benefit of the people , that the kings rents should be levied by soldiers ; so that for all the time of my lord of faulkland , and the justices since , it was within the compass of the instructions , and reduced to the consent of the people , and the words of the statute are , no soldiers shall be assest without consent , but this remains charged to be by force , and against consent . that concerning the contribution-money , in which another usage is alledged , is set forth to be an agreement of the people , that because it might not come into the exchequer , to be made a precedent , it should not be levyed by ordinary process , but by soldiers , if it were behind , it being assigned for relief and pay of soldiers , and being by consent is out of the present case . sir arthur tyrringham speaks of this use in case of a petit debt of or s. on a warrant from my lord faulkland , which is the only case of debt prooved , but he could not tell whose or what debt it was , nor how determined or judged . if it were the kings debt , it might be one of the rents , or some duty leviable by consent of the people ; neither did he say , it was on a suit before the deputy , and therefore that will not come to the case . for that my lord dillon was called again touching contribution , composition , and rents ; composition-rents fall under the same consideration . that sir thomas wayneman laid soldiers is but an affirmation , and expects no answer , ( but if the information be true ) he used very violent courses , for it hath appeared he hanged a man , without any occasion . my lord produced the instructions of . and out of them inforced , that it might be lawful for him to levy soldiers with authority ; but it appears by the first article it was consented to at the writing , and for the benefit of the subject , as was before answered ; and that very much money was assigned for the soldiers , and it may be proved ( if there be occasion ) that there issued acquittances to the captains of the company , to deliver to the persons from whom the money was due , in case of payment ; and if they did not pay by consent , soldiers were laid , and not otherwise . for the proclamation of december . whereby the payment of his majesties rents and revenues was ordered , it recites divers rents were behind , that the surplusage would not pay the soldiers , that by want of money , the soldiers might make irruptions on the county ; that according to direction , to prevent inconveniencies , moneys should be levied , which had rise from the instructions , . for the time of it was . a proclamation might well second that which was setled before , by the instructions : if it did not pursue them , surely the proclamation was an offence in it self , and then there is no justification of a treason by a treason , but it might have been as well objected against , as this in hand ; but it is true , it hath the countenance of these instructions . but on all these , there is no pretence of forcing submission to my lord of strafford's orders . after usuage his lordship observes the testimonies produced , and takes exceptions to that of berne ; that the ground of his complaint was , when my lord of strafford was in england ; that it was done by pygott's warrants , who was not proved to have any warrant from him . it is true , there is no full and precise proof , that pygott had his warrant from my lord of strafford . but though it was done after his coming for england , yet if his warrant were made before , though it were executed in his absence , it will lay it on my lord of strafford . but we say the warrant was made before , and to pygott as well as savill . one witness says , pygott himself did vouch my lord of strafford to have given him his warrant , it was my lord lieutenants warrant , he was my lord lieutenants sergeant , the soldiers were my lord lieutenants troopers ; the soldiers laid by savill , are by my lord deputies warrant , proved to be under his hand and seal , and many witnesses are in savills case produced . and whereas my lord says , no warrant was shewed ; if himself had not excepted against it , a true copy had been produced , and if none be shewed , it is his own fault ; but my lord of strafford should have shewed it , if any thing was in it to qualifie the matter , for it is proved he gave authority , and by his authority the soldiers were laid . whereas my lord says , this cause was not complained of , berne gives the reason , he durst not complain there , but came over hither to complain , and hath prosecuted the complaint . my lord of strafford was pleased to aske ardah , what he heard concerning laying of soldiers ? it is true , he and savill mention the laying on soldiers on fitzgerard but it was for the kings money , and they spake it not on their own knowledge , but by hear-say , and it was done but once ; and whether since the instructions , it doth not appear , and if it was since , then it was by consent , and this fitzgerard lay out as a rebel , and if it was done , it was done under that capacity . to that point a witness was produced . mr. kennedy being interrogated , whether he the said fitzgerard did did not lye in the nature of a rebel when soldiers were laid on him ? he answered , that this fitzgerard was sheriff in the county of corke , and failing in his accompt at the time , process was issued on his recognizance , and he held out three or four years . that he , ( the deponent being then the kings remembrancer ) thought it his duty to acquaint the barons of the exchequer , that he could not be found , but kept abroad in the woods , being a man of good estate ; and then on acquainting my lord of faulkland with it , a warrant was procured to the sergeant at arms. henry dillon says nothing of the usage , but pretends one thimbleby said he had a warrant , but whether he had a warrant , or did execute it , appears not . and if it be so , it appears not for what time , when it was , nor out of what court the process came , upon which the last assessment was made . this is all offered in matter of fact ; my lord proceeds to other justifications . first , that his majesties deputy is so qualified , that he hath power to resist rebels and secure peace : and it is true , he hath power , but he hath no power at all to make a war , especially in time of peace : now all things are appeased there , and no occasion is given of a war ; only that soldiers be maintained for a nursery of martial discipline , but there is no occasion of soldiers to be laid on the kings people . he alledged a stat. h. . that no war or peace should be made , but by the deputies licence ; and therefore he infers , that by the deputy war might be made ; it is true , where there is hostility or rebellion , then to oppose and repress that rebellion , the deputy may make a defensive war ; but to do it in time of peace , on the kings people , that are under the government of his majesties laws , is to make war on the kings subjects , under his peace and protection , and consequently , on the sovereign power that doth protect them . he would compare it with forcible entry , but the circumstances do very much diversity it from riots , or forcible entries ; it is done by soldiers that come furnished with all warlike ammunition , brought from garrisons , the places of war , brought with an officer , brought in numbers ; and though the lord of strafford extenuates the numbers , yet the sergeant at arms was unlimited . so the power given to him , was a vast power , to take such a number of soldiers as he should think fit . his lordship observes , that the stat. of . h. . cannot conclude him , because statutes here in england do not include the king , unless he be nominated in them , the committee expected not to hear this reason ; that because the kings sacred person is not mentioned in a statute , who cannot be within the blemish of such an offence , therefore it should not extend to a subject . this is to take a power above law , and make himself equal to sovereignty , to say that he should not be comprehended more than the king himself . he says he did not lead the soldiers , but only gave a warrant , and therefore this should not be treason ; but though he leads them not , the commander is an actor ; and to give warrant for treason , is treason . he says this is a statute-law in ireland , and not examinable before their lordships here . mr. palmer alledged , that he would do my lord right ; that he submitted to their lordships judgements , and craved leave to give answer to that point , and said , the laws of ireland are devised from the crown of england , the king being seized of it in the right of his crown of england , and as a parcel of this crown : the power they have to make laws there , is derivative from the crown of england , and they did thankfully accept them from the first conqueror : since that , they had power to make acts of parliament , but that is subordinate , the laws there are the laws of england applyed to that place : as any particular custom of a place , not the general law of the land , is the law of that place by a general custom , and yet may be judged out of the precincts of that custom ; so the laws of ireland are the laws of that kingdom ; yet may be judged by this supream court , out of the limits of ireland . though in an inferior court , when a thing questioned in ireland , is brought by writ of error , they judge according to the laws of ireland , not of england . and my lord hath prayed , and werequire , that he may be judged according to the laws of ireland . so this law of h. . may be judged by their lordships , though it be a law in ireland . but my lord urges , that this law is repealed , and for that he gave reasons on many acts of parliament ; first , a statute made edw. . that is made to a particular purpose , reciting one particular statute , and repealing that , and then by a general clause , ratifying and introducing all the statutes of england into ireland . this being but on a particular occasion , with such a general clause , will not be applyable , however , it will be the answer to that that follows . it is a general clause to introduce the laws of england , and shall not have that reflexion to repeal any law of force in ireland . this introducing of our laws thither , shall not work to repeal their laws , but make a consistance of both laws , so far as they may stand together . on that mr. palmer said , he would not enlarge himself , it being not matter of fact , and it was not expected that matter of law would have been insisted on , and therefore he leaves it to those that shall hereafter give their lordships satisfaction in point of law. that which my lord called a judgement in parliament , eliz. recites that it was in time of desolation of justice ; that the captains had brought oppressions on the people . it was in a time , when , though the irish had been victi long before , yet they were not brought perfectly under subjection of the laws of england , there then remained rebellions and tumults ; it was in time of hostility and war , and that statute gives but an implication neither , that captains should not assess without the deputies warrant : and it follows not , that therefore he hath authority to do it . but howsoever the thing be , this was for defence of the people , to make resistance against rebels . but the thing in charge was in time of peace , and full government of the law , and so that statute will give no justification at all . my lord of strafford concluded , that there was no treasonable intent in this , and therefore it should be no treason on the statute of the edw. . my lord recited the words of the statute , not to be only the levying of the war , but adhering to the kings enemies ; but these glosses are not to be confounded but severed . the adhering to the kings enemies , is one offence within that statute , levying of war another ; so that if there be no adherence , yet if there be levying of war , it will be treason . and this levying of war , it was on the kings people ; perhaps there was no intent upon the kings sacred person ; yet if it be against the kings people , such a levying of war is treason ; ordinary cases of felony are to be against the kings crown and dignity , though it be the homicide of a mean subject , it is against the kings crown and dignity , because it is against the protection and safety of that man that is the kings subject ; and so the levying of war on the kings people , by laying soldiers in this hostile manner , being against the protection , by which they are governed , against the safety , by which the king is to defend them . it is a war against the king , his crown , and dignity , this is the answer to the defence . and mr. palmer concluded , that he conceived the charge of the house of commons , in matter of fact , was fully maintained , and for matter of law , if there remained any scruple , a farther argument , and stronger reasons should be offered hereafter . and so a recess being granted for a day , upon the humble request of my lord of strafford , the house was adjourned , and saturday following was appointed for the next meeting . the sixteenth article . the charge . . that the earl of strafford the two and twentieth of february , in the th year of his majesties reign , intending to oppress the said subjects of ireland , did make a proposition , and obtained from his majesty an allowance thereof , that no complaint of injustice or oppreision done in ireland , should be received in england against any , unless it appeared , that the party made first his address to him the said earl , and the said earl having by such usurped , tyrannical , and exorbitant power , expressed in the former articles , destroyed , and oppressed the peers , and other subjects of that kingdom of ireland , in their lives , consciences , land , liberties , and estates ; the said earl to the intent , the better to maintain and strengthen his said power , and to bring the people into a disaffection of his majesty , as aforesaid ; did use his majesties name in the execution of the said power . and to prevent the subjects of that realm of all means of complaints to his majesty , and of redress against him and his agents , did issue a proclamation , bearing date the th day of september , in the eleventh year of his majesties reign , thereby commanding all the nobility , undertakers , and others , who held estates and offices in the said kingdom , ( except such as were employed in his majesties service , or attending in england by his special command ) to make their personal residence in the said kingdom of ireland : and not to depart thence , without licence of himself . and the said earl hath since issued other proclamations to the same purpose , by means whereof the subjects of the said realm are restrained from seeking relief against the oppressions of the said earl , without his licence ; which proclamation , the said earl hath by several rigorous ways , as by fine , imprisonment , and otherwise , put in execution on his majesties subjects , as namely , one parry , and others , who came over onely to complain of the exorbitances and oppressions of the said earl. april . . mr. palmer proceeded in further maintenance of the charge of high-treason , by the commons of england , against the earl of strafford ; and said , they were now entring upon the sixteenth article of his impeachment , and shewed ; that from the former articles had been represented several and divers sorts of crimes ; and how that in every of them their lordships might perceive a power assumed by my lord of strafford , above , and contrary to the laws , and destructive to them in every part , so far as concerned the subject matter ; and , how these multiplications of acts did presuppose an habit , and evidently proved that main charge , wherewith he was accused , viz. his endeavouring the subversion of the established laws and government , and to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannical power . and , that by this article it would appear unto their lordships , that those exorbitances that were done in ireland , were prepensed and intended , before his going thither ; that those oppressions were so by him done ; and , that he might countenance it , the article charges him , that on the th of february , in the th year of the king , he procured from his majesties own allowance , that no complaint of injustice , or oppression should be received in england , unless the party made first his address himself to the deputy , and this was obtained on his repairing to that government : and this was to be observed by the secretaries here , the masters of request , and all others by whom complaints might have passage to his majesty ; and , it remained as a caution , that none should be admitted . it is true , many specious reasons and arguments were subscribed to this proposition , but the effect of them was , to take the reines of rule into his own hands , to prevent the immediate access and approach of the subjects to his majesty , in their seeking of redress for their grievances . and , in the th year of the king , after some time spent there , to prevent them of all meanes of redress , their complaints being before imbargued , that they could not be received , no person at all must come over without license ; there must not be a rumour of what was done in ireland , but such as he should so authorize . to that end , by colour of some laws in ireland , concerning them that were to maintain their lands against the irish in times of hostility and rebellion ; and , under colour of some instruction , for their keeping their residence on their lands , as also of a letter to that purpose from his majesty , he is charged ; that on the th of sept. car. he issued a proclamation , and that commands the nobility , undertakers , and others that held estates in ireland , to reside there , and not to depart without his licence , and so restrained them from seeking relief against his oppressions , without his licence . to them that desired licenses , he deny'd them : on them that adventur'd to repair hither without licence , he imposed fines and imprisonments for transgressing that proclamation ; and , howsoever this may be coloured with pretences of instructions , and letters from his majesty , it is an usurpation on regality , and an undermining of the protection of his majesty over his people . for proof thereof , iohn loftus being sworn , attested ; that the copy of the propositions , made by my lord of strafford , was taken out of the clerk of the councils office , and was a true copy . the said propositions were read. at vvhitehall , th of feb. . propositions to be considered of by his majesty , concerning the government of ireland . these propositions were entered according to his majesties pleasure , signified by mr. secretary cooke . these propositions made to his majesty by the lord wentworth lord deputy of ireland , and lord president of the north , were read and approved of at the council board , th feb. . there being present , &c. that no particular complaint of iustice , or oppression , be admitted here against any , unless it appear , the party made first his address to the deputy , this is but iustice to the deputy , who must needs , in some measure , be a delinquent . whence mr. palmer inferred , it did appear that this was to be entered , and remain with the secretaries , masters of requests , and all others whom it might concern . the next thing is the proclamation , in effect as followeth ; th of sept. car , by the lord deputy and council . a proclamation , that noblemen , undertakers , and others , shall be resident here . after the preamble it imports , we therefore , in obedience to his majesties royal command signified by the said letter , do publish , declare , and make known his princely pleasure , that all the nobility , undertakers , and others that hold estates and offices in the kingdom ( such only excepted , as are imployed in his service in england ) do hereafter make their personal residences here ; and not depart to england , or other place , without licence of us the lord deputy , any former letter to the contrary notwithstanding : and , in case we the lord deputy shall have notice of their contempt of his majesties will , we shall proceed against them in an exemplary way to deter others : therefore we straightly command all manner of persons to take notice of this proclamation . mr. palmer observed , that by the propositions , all complaints are prevented : by the proclamation all persons are restrayned from coming over without the lord deputies licence . and , that in pursuance hereof , several persons that have required licences have been refused ; that many of their occasions to come over , were complaints against the deputy himself ; that such use hath been made of this act , that the committee of the house of parliament there were restrained from coming over , on pretence of this prohibition . witnesses were produced . and first , richard wade being sworn , was interrogated , whether my lord of esmond did not require licence to come into england , and if it was deny'd him ? and , whether he had not a suit depending with my lord of strafford , and he would not let him come over till publication passed , whereby he was prevented of examining his witnesses ? he answered , that in august , , my lord of esmond sent him with a petition to my lord deputy , for licence to go to make an end of the cause , wherein my lord lieutenant was plaintiff ; that he delivered the petition to my lord lieutenant himself , and waited on him every day for his answer ; that he could not get licence on that petition . that , after this , in michaelmas-term , , as he takes it , my lord of esmond procured the kings letter ; this letter he delivered to my lord deputy , by direction of my lord of esmond ; but , in this , could not get licence : so that he was deteined from aug. , till april following , and he thinks till publication was granted . lorky being sworn , and interrogated touching my lord of esmonds restraint , till the passing of publication , he answered , that when my lord of esmond heard , that my lord of strafford had incerted him into a bill , amongst other defendants in the star-chamber , my lord desired leave to come to england , to make his defence in that cause , and to appear in it in person , because without his lordships leave he could not come over , by vertue of this proclamation . my lord sollicited his leave , first by a petition , aug. . afterwards by several letters , some , he ( the deponent ) carried to his lordship , who still denied leave , and would not suffer my lord of esmond to come over , till after publication was granted in the cause , which he conceives was in april ; my lord of esmond having sollicited from april , , till aprill following . richard wade interrogated , what my lord lieutenant said to him , concerning my lord of esmonds coming over ? he answered , that on delivery of the kings letter to him , when he looked on it in the evening , the out-side ( said my lord of strafford ) is secretary crookes hand ; and , to morrow morning , if you attend me , you shall have an answer . that the next morning , he ( the deponent ) came to the secretary carr , who told his lordship , the deponent was there . that my lord sent for him , the deponent , to his study , and said , what needs my lord of esmond be so importunate , for he can do nothing there ; but his attorney and agent may do it . indeed , said he , the deponent , my lord intends only to go over to get a commission to justifie his innocency : why then saith my lord of strafford , i will not give way , he shall have no commission but what is out already : and , if he have any commission , it is but negative . and , mr. palmer observed , that by this meanes my lord of esmond came to be sentenced ; and , mr. maynard added , that so might the most innocent man. lord roche sworn , and interrogated , whether he did not demand a licence , and was deny'd ; and , in what suit he thought to be relieved ? he answered , that he prayed my lord to give him leave , and he deny'd him : that his occasion to come over was about an information , preferred against him half a year before in the star-chamber : conceiving , that there were some intentions against him , that tended much to his prejudice , by my lord deputy , and lord president of munster , who were the occasion of the information , as he conceived ; and , that he intended to come over , hoping he might do something with the king , and their lordships ; and , when he demanded licence ( his lordship coming to take ship , and he ( the deponent ) conducting him ) he deny'd it him ( the deponent ) and the suit was not pursued in five or six months ; and , till my lord went over nothing was said of it , which was five or six months more . my lord of strafford desired he might be asked , whether he was not then prisoner in the castle ? he alleadging , that he was in prison for divers great misdemeanors , and being interrogated accordingly , he answered , that he was not a prisoner in half a year after , till my lord came out of england ; nor was the cause followed in five or six months after he propounded a licence to his lordship , which was the day his lordship went aboard . the next case offered is the case of dermond mac carty , who had a suit against him several times , dismissed in a court of justice , which my lord deputy took afterwards into determination himself , and made an order against him in the cause that was so diminished : mac-carty , grandchild to him against whom the order was made ( who was not bound by the order ; having no land , nor office in ireland , and so not bound by the proclamation ) desired leave to come into england , to complain indeed of this injustice , though he pretended it was for his education , but was deny'd by my lord , and by others in his absence , because my lord had deny'd him before . the petition subscribed by my lord deputy himself was read , my lord acknowledged it to be under his own hand . to the right honourable the lord viscount wentworth , &c. the humble petition of dermond mac-carty , showing , that your petitioner , for his private occasions , specially for better breeding and education , is desirous to travel into the realm of england ; he therefore most humbly prayeth , your lordship will be pleased , to licence and dispence with his iourney thither , and he will ever pray , &c. dublin-castle , iune , . for our reasons , best known to our selves , we think it not fit to grant the petitioners request ; but do rather hereby expresly inhibit , and forbid him to transport himself into england , or any part beyond the seas , without our licence first had in that behalf : and , of these directions the petitioner is required , not only to take notice , but also obey the same , as he will answer the contrary at his utmost peril . on a second petition preferred by mac-carty ( because my lord deputy had refused to give him licence ) sir christopher wainsford did also refuse his licence . the petition , and the answer thereunto purporting to that effect , were read. iames nash sworn , and interrogated , whether the occasion of these petitions was not to complain of that decree , made by my lord deputy , in a cause , that had in a court of justice been dismissed ? he answered , that he knew the passages of all the causes , having been a sollicitor and agent for the father of mac-carty , and waiting on their occasions in dublin . that after the obtaining of two dismissions in the suit , my lord did order and decree for sir iames craig l. against mac-carty . and , on this decree , an order , to dispossess him of all his fathers estate ; and he being banish'd into a foreign part the young man , for fear , would not come in and appear ; but , hoping to have redress in england , did petition in this matter , in desire and hope to have redress in that dismission made by the lord strafford . mr. palmer opened the case of parry his fine and imprisonment , who is mentioned in the article ; that he was servant to the late lord chancellor , was examined before my lord deputy of some things that concerned his master , and had answered so much as it pleased my lord to require of him . that after this ( being used to follow my lord chancellors occasions ) my lord deputy , to prevent his coming over , referred him to further examination before the iudges , whom he attended five or six dayes , but there was nothing to examine him upon , for he had delivered all that was required , as fully as he knew ; that finding my lord chancellors occasions very urgent , he came into england ; and , as soon as he came hither , it seems he was followed with directions thence ; for , by warrant from secretary cook he was apprehended by a messenger ; and the warrant expresses it , that he was one that came over without licence : that he was turned over to mr. ralton , my lords agent , and must give bond to repair , and make his appearance in ireland : before that bond was discharged , he did return ; and , after his return , he petitioned to be discharged of this bond , he conceiving he might come over without licence , having no estate nor office in ireland ; yet notwithstanding he was sentenced , fined , and imprisoned . it is true , the cause expressed in the sentence , is , because he went away not being examined ; and the sentence expresses , that he is not fined for coming without licence , but because he came away without being examined . henry parry sworn , was interrogated , whether the copy showed unto him was a true copy of secretary cooks warrant ? he answered , that he examined it with the original . the warrant was read. these are , in his majesties name , to will and command you , to make your present repair to any place , where you shall understand of the — of henry parry gent. lately come out of ireland without licence ; and , by vertue hereof , to take him into custody , and keep him safe till you hear from me . greenwich , june , . to thomas welch , messenger of the kings chamber . henry parry being interrogated , what were the proceedings with him about his examinations in ireland , before his coming over ? and , what was the whole process of the business ? he answered , that april , , my lord of ely , then lord chancellor , his lord and master , was committed to the castle of dublin , and , no sooner committed , but he ( the deponent ) was sent for to the council board , and , an oath administred to him , by the clerk of the council , on my lord of straffords direction . that thereupon his lordship interrogated him , where the great seal was ? he answered his lordship , that he knew not where it was , unless it was with my lord of ely : and , after his lordship had examined him to that , he commanded him to attend the iudges the next day , to be examined on some papers of his ( the deponents ) which his lordship had seized and brought to the council 〈◊〉 , and thereupon he was dismissed at night . that monday next ( this being saturday ) he attended the iudges alone to be examined , and attended not only that day , but five dayes more , from thence to saturday . that on saturday , my lord of ely told him , he had occasion to send him over into england , and desired him to go : that he did come away with some letters from his lordship , to some of his lordships friends here ; and , as soon as he came here with instructions from his lordship , the instructions were given to his lordships friends , to sollicite his sacred majesty for his relief , and enlargement out of prison ; and he continued a matter of two months or thereabouts ; and on that , one thomas welsh , by vertue of secretary cookes warrant , attached him , and kept him in restraint about three weeks . at the end of three weeks he was sent for to mr. ralton , who told him , it was secretary cookes pleasure he should enter into bond to go into ireland , else he should be sent by a messenger . that he ( the deponent ) answered , he could not pay a messenger , but if he could not get leave to stay , he would enter into bond to go to ireland : that mr. ralton took a bond , to appear the th or th of august following , this being in iuly , . that he came into ireland according to the tenor of his bond. that my lord of strafford being to go into the country , he presented himself before his lordship in the gallery at the castle , and acquainted his lordship , that he was there to attend his lordship , according to the tenor of the bond. his lordship asked him , who took his bond ? he acquainted his lordship , that it was his agent mr. ralton . his lordship asked , what warrant had mr. ralton to take bond of you ? he , ( the deponent ) acquainted his lordship , he did not know any warrant he had : but , he said , he had direction from secretary cook. my lord asked further , where he took the bond , if at the signet-office ? no : said he ( the deponent ) it was at his own house . my lord answered , that he ( the deponent ) might do well to attend at the next sitting of the council-board . and , that he ( the deponent ) going away , his lordship called him back , and said , methinks , mr. parry you are much sun-burned , the weather is very hot in england . he ( the deponent ) answered again , the weather is very fair . his lordship interrogated him , where my lady moore was ? and , how she did ? he ( the deponent ) acquainted his lordship , she was in england . here my lord of strafford interrupted him , asking , if this was to the business ? but , having direction to go on , he added , that my lord asked him , why he did not stay abroad to help my lady moore to spread abroad her malice against him ( my lord of strafford ) to which he ( the deponent ) said , he could say nothing : and so was dismissed . that afterwards he attended with a petition of my lord of ely's ; and , that my lord asked him , where his petition was ? he said , he had not any , but presented his person . his lordship told him , that it was councel-board-day for petitions , and wished him to come some other time : yet after , was called back , and had an answer to the petition . that the tuesday following , ( as he takes it ) he appeared before his lordship again , without any petition , not knowing any cause he had to petition : that , the next day after he petition'd ; and on reading his petition , the constable of the castle was called , and thereupon he ( the deponent ) was committed , and censured ( as he was told the next day ) l. that his lordship declared the order of the board , that he ( the deponent ) was fined l. bound to his good behaviour ; committed to the castle of dublin ; and to acknowledge his offence at the board , and to mr. ralton ; and there he continued in prison , and was utterly ruined . being asked , whether he was heard to answer in the cause ? or , whether he was examined after his return ? he answered , that he never put in answer in writing , nor was there any petition against him , but only his own petition ; nor further required to be examined from that day to this . being asked , how much of his fine he paid ? he answered , that before he could see his order , he was fain to pay sir paul davis l. and , when he saw his order for reducing it , for it was reduced from l. to l. of which he paid l. mr. palmer proceeded , observing , that the next thing was , a refusal of the whole kingdom to present their complaints : it is true , said he , it was not by my lord of strafford himself , but it ensued on these acts , and proclamations ; and that was hindering the committee of the parliament that were to come over , to make a remonstrance of their grievances to his majesty . sir robert smith being sworn , and interrogated , whether he was imployed by the house of commons to come over hither ? and , whether he was deny'd licence ? he answered , that we were sent for by my lord deputy wainsford , and he put us ( as we conceived them ) several catching questions , as , if they had not my lord deputies licence , and the boards . whether they would repair to england or no ? we answered , that , in obedience to the house of commons , we did intend to repair to england . no , sayes my lord deputy , answer me catagorically ; would you go or no , if we would command you not to go ? to this we answered , no : being between two jurisdictions , both from his majesty ; for , we had a command from the house of commons , and a counter-command from his majesty , and we were denied licence , and a restraint of ships , for that cause they conceived to restrain them . being asked , whether the deputy did know the house of commons had ordered them to come over , and yet refused ? he answered , the lord deputy did know it , it was apparently known to all the kingdom . mr. fitz-gerard being examined to the same points , as sir robert linch . he answered , that after the the session of parliament , octob. last , and the house of commons had travelled till the nov. in the affairs of the kingdom , the grand committee had heard and discussed many grievances general and particular , and voted them to the house . that about the beginning of nov. the house entred into consideration of those grievances , and drew up a petition of remonstrances to be presented to the lord deputy , which was voted in the house of commons nov. nov. the whole house attended with the speaker , and the speaker read it publiquely before him . the grievances were of that nature , that they did humbly , and of right ( as he remembers ) petition for redress of those grievances ; that the house conceiving the parliament would be prorogued , or dissolved before redress was given , they entred into consideration of a course to present it to his majesty . and nov. made an order : that the committee should be appointed to repair to england with a caution , that if redress should not be had before dissolution , or prorogation of the parliament , that committee should not proceed . nov. it was prorogued without redress ; that the next day after prorogation the committee was summoned to attend at the board , and there was interrogated severally on a question , as far as he can remember , viz. of their intention to go into england , whether they would aske leave to go into england ? and admitting my lord deputy should command them not to goe , till his majesties pleasure was known , whether they would go ? to all they were severally to answer , and catagorically ( this was my lord deputies word ) after answer given , they were ordered to withdraw , and being called in again , it was made known by the lord deputy wainsford ; that he and the lords had considered the whole matter , and bade them take notice , there was a proclamation , restraining all the subjects of ireland to make repair to england till application was made to the deputy . that he engaged them in allegiance , not to depart , till he ( the lord deputy ) had known his majesties pleasure , whether they should goe or no , which he would labour to know speedily . the next thing mr. palmer offered , was the irish remonstrance , which was read . to the right honourable the lord deputy , the humble and just remonstrance of the knights , citizens , and burgesses in parliament . the petitioners do conceive great and strong fears of a proclamation published in this kingdom , anno . prohibiting men of quality or estate , to depart this kingdom without the lord deputies licence , whereby the subjects of this kingdom are hindred and interrupted from free access to his said majesty and privy council of england , to obtain remedies against their just grievances , as their ancestors have had , since the reign of h. . and great fees exacted for the said licences . and so mr. palmer summed up the evidence , that by the proposition made before my lord deputies going over , it appeared what was intended , that no complaints of oppression should be made without address , first , to the deputy , and what followed , declares plainly the execution of it ; that notwithstanding the injustice and oppression done , complaints could not be received . by the former article , their lordships have heard what he did there , and the great causes of complaint ; after in time , is the proclamation , their lordships see the use made of it , , that those who had made complaints against my lord himself , and his orders , were refused to have licence ; some that adventured to come without licence were fined and imprisoned to their utter ruine . the whole parliament , when the order was well known , were refused to have licence ; it is true , not by my lord of strafford , but the deputy , who coloured his denial from these acts of my lord of strafford ; what fears they had , their lordships may apprehend by the remonstrance ; my lord of strafford assumed a great power to himself , all addresses being first made to him , and the subject thereby excluded from his majesty , till such address was made ; so that his lordship is not par negotio , but supra , above all the authority committed to him ; not an accessary but principal ; not in the nature of a subject but domini , and so he expected his lordships answer . my lord of strafford after a little time of recollecting himself , began his defence in substance as followeth . that he should only apply himself to the things in charge , as near as he could , and give the fairest answer he could , where , by the way he alledged , that he might very justifiably say , he had never in his life other thoughts or intentions before his going into ireland , or during his abode there , but justly and faithfully in the service of his majesty and the kingdom ; nor did he ever desire , or intend any thing , so much as to introduce the english laws and government there : and whereas he is charged with a subversion of the fundamental laws , he may say , he thinks , with truth and modesty , that the laws had never so free a passage , that never any deputy gave less interruption to the proceedings of the law , than it had , during all his time : that it did not appear by all that hath been said , that there was any stay of legal proceedings ; for all the causes spoken of him , came originally , and primarily , before they depended in any other court ; and that he never hindred , but gave all furtherance to the passage of the common-law ; and therefore if their lordships find ( as they cannot but expect from him much ) error and mistakes , he besought them out of their goodness and nobleness , to apply it rather to his infirmity and weakness , than to any habit of ill he had got , as he trusts , he should make appear to their lordships . the charge , is to have procured , with an intent of oppression , a stop of all complaints of injustice , that none might be received in england , unless it appeared , that the party did make his address to him . to prove this , the gentlemen have read a proposition of his , made before his going into ireland , and as appears , by their own shewing , such a proposition as was allowed and approved of by their lordships at the council-board . he desires that in this ( as in all things else ) he might not be taken in pieces , but altogether ; for if they take part , and leave what they please , they may make a man speak strange things ; and therefore he desired their lordships would hear the reasons inducing that proposition as well as the proposition it self , being under the clerk of the councils hand , and so attested by mr. ralton : the proposition and reasons were accordingly read as followeth in substance . feb. . a proposition amongst divers others , entred in the register of the acts of council feb. . follows in haec verba . that no particular complaint of injustice or oppression be admitted here against any , unless it first appear he hath made his address to the deputy . and indeed , this is but justice to the deputy , who must needs in some measure be a delinquent , if the complaints be true , as being in chief universally to take care that his majesties justice be throughly complyed with in that place ; and therefore good reason his judgement should be informed , and his integrity first tryed , before either be impeached ; nay , it is but justice to the government it self , which would be exceeding scandalous , through the liberty of complaints , and the ministery therein extreamly discouraged , upon every petit matter to be drawn to answer here , when the thing it self is for the most part either injurious , or for which , the party might have received good satisfaction at his own door . but where the complaint appears formally grounded , and where due application hath been made to the deputy , without relief to the party , let it be throughly examined , and severely punished , wheresoever the fault proves to be , especially if it be corrupt or malicious ; for so he shall not only magnify his justice , but punish an unfaithful minister , or clamorous complainant , and his service shall thereby be bettered . from whence my lord of strafford inferred , that by this it might appear to their lordships , his intent was not to assume any greater authority , than became him to desire ; but meerly to prevent clamors and unjust complaints , and that they might be redressed nearer home without complaint , and no way to hinder any mans just complaint . and so it had no relation nor aspect to himself , but meerly to the furthering of the kings justice . and so that proposition could not ( he conceived ) be turn'd upon him , otherwise then as just and honourable . for the proclamation it self , and the staying of men from coming without licence ( the thing complained of ) he begged leave to acquaint their lordships with some particulars . he conceived , by the laws of ireland , no man that is a subject and liege-man there , can come from thence without licence from the deputy , but it is very penal , and to that purpose he would mention two or three statutes of that kingdom ; one is the h. . ca. . the title whereof is , an act that the kings subjects , or officers in ireland , may be absent by the commands of the king or governor , or council , without censure of , &c. the words of the statute in substance . also it is decreed and agreed , that none of the kings liege men ( who comprehend all , as he conceives ) or officers of the land , go out of the land , but by commission from the king or his heirs , lieutenant-iustices , &c. all the rents , benefits , offices , or other possessions by their said absence , shall be seized into the kings hands , &c. whence my lord of strafford inferred , that if they go without the governors licence , there is a forfeiture of all these . another is h. . ca. . it is ordained , &c. that if any liege-man be out of the kingdom , by the commandement of the king or his heirs , or the lieutenant there , deputy-iustices , or council ; their rents , &c , shall not be seized , &c. whence his lordship inferred , that if they go without licence , they are punishable for it . the next is a certain article , preferred by certain irish agents then in england in may . or thereabouts , long before he was thought on for a deputy in ireland , either by himself or any body else ; and this is from their own desire and petition , being attested by mr. ralton to be a true copy , one article was read , being in substance as followeth . may . to the kings most excellent majesty , the humble petition of your majesties faithful subjects , appointed agents to prefer certain humble requests , &c. to your highness , in behalfe of your kingdom of ireland . after the preamble , amongst other things it contained , that his majesty would be pleased , that in respect of the non-residence of many great men , who spending their estates abroad , the kingdom was impoverished , and great sums of money transported ; order might be taken , that both they , and all undertakers , on whom estates have been bestowed , for the better supporting and improving of the kingdom , may make their personal residence , at least half the year , and not to depart without licence . his majesties answer was given in these words . all the nobility , undertakers , and others , who hold estates and offices within that kingdom , are to make their personal residence there , and not to leave it without licence , such persons excepted only , as are imployed in our service in england , or attend here by our special command . next my lord of strafford desired , he might read the lord faulklands instructions , which , as he conceived , were pursuing to this , and they were , as he takes it , may , . which being attested by mr. brooks to be examined by the original , was read . c. r. instructions to be observed by , or , &c. henry viscount faulkland , or council there , &c. all the nobility , undertakers , and others , who hold estates , or offices in that kingdom , are to make their personal residence there , and not to leave it without licence ; such persons only excepted , as are employed in our service in england , or attend here by our special command . next his lordship offered his majesties letter of th of ianuary . commanding the publishing of this proclamation , which mr. ralton affirming to be a true copy was read . c. r. to the lord deputy of ireland . whereas amongst other things in the graces vouchsafed to our subjects , . we signified our pleasure , that the nobility , undertakers , and others , holding estates in ireland , should be resident there , and not to depart without licence : and being now given to understand , that notwithstanding those directions , divers persons ( not of the meaner sort ) take liberty to pass into this kingdom , or foreign parts , as if they understood not what they owed to us in their duty , or themselves in their evil carriage , which presumption we may not long suffer , &c. we do therefore hereby will and require you , by act of state , or proclamation , to make known our pleasure , that all nobility , undertakers , and others , that hold estates and offices , ( such persons only excepted , as be imployed here , &c. ) do hereafter make their personal residence , and not depart for england , or other place , without privity of our deputy , any former letters to the contrary notwithstanding . and because we resolve to have this course constantly observed ( if you shall have notice of any contemner of this command ) our will and pleasure is , that you proceed against them in an exemplary way to deterr others ; and for so doing , this shall be your warrant . my lord of strafford observed , that he might well have hoped , that this being required by the laws of the land , that no man should depart without licence , but it should be penal to him , having their own articles , which desire the same thing ; that by this proclamation the power of my lord of faulkland was established upon him ; and the kings command for the issuing this proclamation , being justified by the kings own letter , so that this should not have been laid to him , for so great and high a crime as it hath been represented to your lordships ; and he trusted that by that time , their lordships thought it not so great a crime , as it might at first seem to be . that he was not very hasty in issuing the proclamation , ( he having no interest in it , nor nothing to drive him forwards ) for tho his majesties command was , bearing date iune . yet the proclamation issued not till sept. . . and because all he had said , had been turned on him as a crime , his lordship gave this further answer , that there could be no proclamation made by the deputy alone , ( he being absolutely restrained by his commission , not to make a proclamation without the council ) therefore he could not be singular in the fault , but had the consent of all the kings council ; and for instance , in matter of law , the chief justices are sitting at the board , to whom all matters of law are referred , and they are answerable for it ; and are so learned , that they could not do things so frequently , without good authority ; and this he offered in excuse of this , and all other proclamations , not doubting but it was according to the laws and customs of the land. and for further satisfaction , that part of his commission that concerned the proclamation was read , and in this particular he desired leave to offer something more with all humility , that tho none of these were for his justification , yet for reasons of state , this restraint was most necessary ; for whosoever goes over deputy , while these two great men ( to term them no worse ) o neal and tir-connel , have regiments of the most antient irish septs , serving the king of spain , under their command , it is necessary for him to have an eye upon them ; for if every one might withdraw himself at pleasure , without giving an account , it would open all the power and means that possibly can be , to distemper that state , and certainly if that liberty might be granted , he feared it would produce sad events in that kingdom . moreover , if all the primogeniture and nobility of that religion , should be suffered to go over to doway , st. omer , and the jesuites colledges , it was to be feared , they should not be so well brought up for the service of the king and common-wealth , as may be desired ; and therefore it was necessary , according to the constitutions of that kingdom , that they shall give an account to the chief governor ; and it was no other than what is practised here in england ; no man being at liberty to goe hence into france without licence . and certainly , said he , it is an account we owe to the king , and stands with the law of nature . pater familiae may take accompt of his own houshold , and the king being the great father of the common-wealth , we owe this accompt to him ; therefore he conceived it can be no great offence in him , to do this on these grounds ; and as he recommended the prosperity of that kingdom , and his majesties affairs there and here , to god , by his prayers and good desires ; so he wishes it might be taken into good consideration , that this may be continued as a principal and necessary expedient , to give his majesty that account , without which , the governor shall not be able to take just measures of things there . his lordship then observed , that something had been observed , that was no part of his charge , and therefore presumed their lordships would not expect an answer to it , or conclude him any way in their judgement guilty of it , since the means of giving that satisfaction , which otherwise he should have done , are now taken away . but when they came to be complained of in their proper place , he is ready to give such an account , as becomes a just and innocent man. but that which seems to be the foulest of them , was that concerning my lord of esmond , of which he remembred very little ; but something darkly , and if it appeared not as he should say , he was extreamly mistaken ; for what he did not know or remember , he would not speak of it confidently , and in short , the point is this . two men swear that he ( the lord of strafford ) denied liberty to my lord of esmond to come for england , aug. . and that he was kept in ireland , and could not have licence to come away till april . his lordship confessed it to be very true , and that he remembred my lord of esmond desiring to go over , was stopped by him a while , ( he being sergeant mayor-general of the army ) the army having occasion of motion , and that he was sure it was much about the time , if his memory failed him not extreamly , ( but when it came to this time , and he had means to produce witnesses , he hoped to make this appear ) besides , he was mistaken , if he did not very shortly after give him a licence , and that he found not occasion to make use of it ; and if that was was so , all they said was taken away , for he afterwards finding it to draw towards winter , laid aside the licence till the spring , at spring he asked it , and had it ; but in these things not judicially brought against him , and to which he could not make certain answers , he hoped he might stand clear , and unprejudiced , till he may answer positively for himself ; and then as their lordships should find him , they might judge of him : and he should ever most willingly submit to their judgements , and abide it whatever it was : and whereas the witnesse said , my lord of esmond was hindred , because he had no commission to examine witnesses , my lord of strafford said , he was able to prove , that a bond was granted him to examine witnesses . and the witness being accidentally there , his lordship took notice of gods providence from that , and said , god almighty was willing to help and assist him wonderfully in his trial , and that his goodness to him in this cause had been a great deal more than he would trouble their lordships withal at that time ; but he said , he was confident , god had him in his protection , and would never forsake him ; and whatsoever he should loose in this world , he would make it up to him in another world . and for this purpose mr. riley was produced , who being questioned , whether he was imployed in suing out a commission for examining of witnesses in ireland , in a cause concerning my lord of esmond , and sir peirce crosby ? mr. riley answered , that he was imployed as clarke in the cause , where mr. attorney was plaintiff , by relation of my lord lieutenant against my lord of esmond and sir peirce crosby , and when that cause came to commission , they for the defendant brought commissioners names , and did joyn in that bond , but he cannot remember the time . being asked ( on mr. maynards motion ) whether sir pierce crosby , or my lord of esmond fued it out ? he answered , he could not directly say ; but the clerk for the defendants could . mr. ralton being asked to the same point . he answered , that he remembers , that about this time , , or . commissions were sued out in the business , between my lord lieutenant and my lord of esmond , and sir pierce crosby , and that he was very confident , that my lord of esmond had the benefit of examining witnesses . my lord of strafford observed , that these gentlemen stirred up those things , to beget an ill opinion of him , but in short answered , they were not in his charge . and further , that he conceived my lord of esmond was stayed on a complaint of sir walsingham cokes , concerning a practice of his , to the endangering of sir walsingham's life . and that he was stayed upon that account , to be examined , and if he ( the lord strafford ) was not mistaken ) my lord esmond was , after examination left at liberty ; but these things he said , were rather aggravations of his charge , than within the charge , and therefore he humbly conceived , that in these cases their lordships would allow him liberty , and hoped the gentlemen will likewise allow it , that so he might satisfie them , their lordships , and all the world , that he hath carried himself justly and fairly in all these particulars ; also assuring himself , that these gentlemen were willing he should give the best answer to all these things he could ; and so he would , and that with all respect and reverence to them in the world . the next case is my lord roches , and his lordship conceives , that my lord roche himself gives a fair answer , for he was informed against him in the starchamber , and my lord of strafford said indeed , he remembred there was such an occasion for it , as he was willing to forget it , for that noble gentlemans cause , and that the complaint was of so high a nature against my lord roche , as he was not willing to press it , to his prejudice , nor ever did , but where there was great reason : and when he should come to answer for it ( for he imagines it is not expected he should answer it finally now , being not within his charge ) heaven should justifie him , and shew that he had reason to stay him at that time . the next is dermond mac-cartyes : and , the cause of his stay appears to be , that he would go abroad for his breeding . now if he and such other should go to doway and s t omer , he thinks their lordships and the house of commons would have blamed him more for giving him and such persons leave , then faulted him for restraining them : and , had he alleadged , that he intended to go over to complain of that decree , he would not have hindred him ; and , to that purpose , he hath witnesses , that he never stayed any man , that pretended he would complain of him . the decree was made by a letter from his majesty , on a notable fraud of mac-carty ( the father ) in the case of sir iames craig , and he that swears in it is solicitor in the cause , and so not altogether so competent a witness . but , these are all on the by , and come rather to prove an intention , then that which is pressed on him , as a thing to which he is properly and finally to answer . the next is concerning the sentence of mr. parry , in which business my lord humbly offered , that no testimony is yet produced , other , than the testimony of the party himself . now , if the judge may be convinced , and condemned on the single testimony of the party grieved , he knows no man would willingly sit in judgment on these termes : and , out of this single vvitness ( being qualified with the attribute of the party grieved ) must he be condemned , that was one of the judges ? but , as they have proved nothing judicially , that can weigh with their lordships , it will be fit for him to justifie himself for this sentence , so far as comes to his share , for all the whole board consented to it : and therefore he besought their lordships , to give him the honor , to offer the sentence given against mr. parry , wherein their lordships would see the reason , that it was not for departing without licence , but for great and foul neglects and contempts to the board . mr. gibson attesting it to be a true copy , the decree of the deputy and council was read , being in substance ; whereas henry parry , one of them who attended the lord chancellor , as his lordships register-keeper , or clerk for private iudicatures , and keeper of the books of these private proceedings , was commanded to attend the board to be examined ; and whereas in contempt thereof , he not onely neglected to attend accordingly , but departed this kingdom , which being represented to his majesty , it pleased his majesty to require his return hither to attend this board ; to which end a bond was taken for his appearance here the next council-day , after the th of aug. and whereas he was present himself at this board th october , , but offered no petition ; as if he disdained so far to humble himself to this authority ; whereupon it ebing made known to him , that it became him , in the duty he owed to the dignity of this board , to come by petition , as all other men : but he forbearing to exhibit his petition , till he was called by us the deputiee to do it ; and then when he exhibited it , he therein misrecited his offence ; alleadging it to be for his repairing to england without licence ; licence ; whereas his offence was , the disobeying the orders of this board . secondly , he laid a tax on william ralton esq alleadging , that on pretence of direction from secretary cooke , he took his bond for appearance here , whereas he knew it was not by any feigned direction , but by appointment of secretary cooke , by his majesties direction . thirdly ; in stead of humbling himself , he desired cancelling of his bond , and dismission from attendance ; and the rather , because he conceived he had not in any degree transgressed the proclamation ; cautelously alledging that to be his offence , which was not laid to his charge . and , for as much as his first offence in estoyning himself to shun the guilt whereof he was convinced ; and after his bold and insolent behaviour at this board ( in answering plainly that he conceived the command of the lord chancellor ought to free him from the command of this board ) deserves such proceedings against him , as may be both punishment to him , and example to others : it is therefore ordered , that he stand fined in l. bound to his good behaviour ; stand committed to the castle during the deputies pleasure ; and make acknowledgment of his offence at this board . and , the form of his submission is set down , i acknowledge i presented a presumptuous and untrue petition , &c. given october , . the names of those that subscribed it were also read. whence my lord of strafford observed , that he was not sentenced for going without licence , but for other causes ; and desired my lord dillon , and sir adam loftus ( whose hands are to the decree might be asked a question or two . and first to the business of my lord of esmond , which had been forgot before . robert lord dillon being asked , whether he remembred any charge laid against my lord of esmond , for a practice against sir walsingham coke ? whereupon being examined , and , when it was ? he answered , that he remembred it was about that time , when a letter was written from the judges of assize that went the circuit of the county of wexford ; and they reported , that they had taken examinations : whereupon it was mistrusted , or at least suggested , that my lord of esmond was to set some on to cut off sir walsingham coke ; and , this being taken into consideration , it was resolved , that till the judges had determined , whether it was treason , or not , he should be stayed for a time ; and , as he takes it , it was resolved he should be advertised into england . being asked ( on mr. maynards motion ) what time this was ? he answered , the question is sudden to him ; but , it was much about the time that my lord of esmond had been in town before ; but , he cannot expresly speak to the time . but , my lord of strafford observed , that the complaint came from the judges of assize , when they came from the circuit , and that was alwayes about august . lord dillon being asked , what year it was ? he answered , he cannot tell the year of the lord in terms : but , he remembers , it was much about that time when my lord of esmond was questioned , and about summer circuit . my lord of strafford proposing , that my lord dillon might be asked , what he remembred of the sentence against parry ? and , what his behaviour was ? to this mr. maynard excepted , as not proper to examine the judge , whether his sentence was just or no ? to which my lord of strafford answered , that it is as equal the judge that gives sentence should be examined , as the party against whom the sentence is given . that this is a sentence for things spoken and done at the board , which stands not on such niceties ; but contempts and misdemeanors to a court are frequently determined , without examination of witnesses ; and , this is a misdemeanor done in the place . but , my lord dillon being spared from answering , sir adam loftus was examined , what he knew of that practice of my lord of esmond , against sir walsingham cokes life ? and when ? he answered , that the first time he heard of it , was , upon an information of the judges of the circuit to my lord deputy , then in ireland , as he takes it ; and , he thinks , my lord was not then in town , but sent that information to the council at dublin , his lordship being then at his countrey-house ; and therein , some practice against sir walsingham coke , of certain rebels and outlawes , that had laid in ambush near his house , was set forth ; and thereupon that letter was sent to the council to consider of it , and take course for his security : that this was not all neither ; for , the examination of a rebel in the castle , brought it home nearest to my lord of esmonds case . but , because the rebel was a man of that condition , it was not thought his testimony could be prevalent against my lord of esmond : therefore the other witnesses were sent for to be examined in the cause . now , this course of examination held a matter of three weeks or a month , or thereabouts ( he doth not well know the time ) but , these men not concurring with the testimony of the rebel , in restraint , there was no words made of it ; but my lord of esmond was dismissed , and left to take his own course . the time was , as he takes it , in the summer assizes , , or , he knows not which : and this is the truth , and all he knows of the business . whence my lord of strafford inferred , that being under that charge of sergeant-major-general of the army , he denyed him liberty to go into england ; but , as soon as he was clear , he had his licence . mr. maynard desiring their lordships to observe , that my lord of strafford explained himself thus ; that he thought so , or very shortly after : and added , that the gentleman is very quick with him , being a man of great understanding , and himself a weak man. but , that he means very justly , and would not be taken in an untruth ; and said , that he hath a servant that was with him , when my lord of esmonds agent came to him , at his house in the countrey ; and desired , he might be asked , what answer he gave him ? francis wetheringe being asked , vvhat he knew concerning my lord of straffords giving of licence to my lord of esmond ? he answered , that he remembers very well that the gentlemen were examined , before they came to fairework-parke ; while he was waiting on his lordship at that time , the gentleman came to him , and desired him to tell my lord he would speak with him : that he heard my lord say , it was concerning his licence , to repair to england ; and , my lord said , he should have it ; but , it was winter time , and he would let it alone till the spring . being asked , what month it was ? he answered , he could not very well remember , but it was the latter end of summer as he thought . mr. ralton being asked , whether the business of my lord of esmond , and sir walsingham coke , were not advertized over hither ? he answered , that he doth very well remember the business ( he being then agent for my lord lieutenant . ) that in one of his letters , or the councils , advertisement was given of this practice against sir walsingham coke ; and , as he takes it , was in sept. . or thereabouts ; and that my lord was pleased to do him ( the said mr. ralton ) the favour , to give him some passages of it . therefore my lord of strafford desired , these things might not stick with their lordships , or the house of commons , to his prejudice ; when he had not means , nor possibility to make his defence : but , that in charity they would reserve their opinions till they sound the truth to the bottom ; and then he hoped he should appear an honest man , and that was all he pretended to . for the remonstrance of the house of commons in ireland , it is no evidence , but a charge to call him to accompt rather , than to condemn him or judge him by : for , it is the remonstrance of the commons house , that have not power to give an oath , and so may be easily misinformed , when they want a meanes to try out the truth . but , for the great fees exacted for these licences ; here are two of his secretaries imployed in this business , whom his lordship desired might be examined , what fees they demanded , and had in this particular ? he added , that he durst say , thousands that went over without licence were never question'd for it : nor any , but where there was cause ; as , in case a man was ill-affected , and then he was looked after . mr. slingsby being asked about the fees for licences ? he answered , they did give the clerks directions never to demand any fees for licences ; and , that the clerk never accompted to him for above five shillings for any licence , which he said was voluntarily given , not demanded . mr. little being asked to the matter of fees ? he answered , that he charged his servant still to demand no fees for licences , except of privy-counsellors , or officers of the army ; and , when they had licences they paid for them ; and , the fee of the licence from the captains was shillings ; the ordinary fee for others five shillings ; and , many times none at all was paid . and then my lord of strafford added , that he had now gone over all the particular proofes , as near as he could remember them : and , the last he shall insist on is this . that there is nothing in this charge as he conceives of treason ; and he must needs conclude every article so , in regard treason is the only thing he is charged withal : and , he conceives he hath given such answers to this , that nothing shall convince him before their lordships of treason . and , for matter of misdemeanors , he knowes their lordships will give him time to examine witnesses , and leave for his counsel to be heard , and then he shall acquit himself as becomes him ; and so with all humility , submit it to their lordships . and thus his lordship concluded his defence . article xvi . replication . mr. palmer replyed thereunto in substance as followeth ; that my lord of strafford , in the preamble of his defence , hath made a great profession to their lordships of his endeavour to preserve the laws in ireland ; and , that no deputy did ever less interrupt the legal proceedings : which , though it be not the matter of the cause , he desired leave to put their lordships in mind , how much he hath interrupted the legal proceedings , because it hath been another part of his army . that it hath been fully proved , how he assumed to himself , out of the ordinary jurisdiction , causes to be heard before himself , on paper petitions , which , how grosly he hath determined , their lordships have heard : and , whether this be not an interruption to legal proceedings , he submitted to their lordships , and also left them to judge how contrary it was to this profession of my lord of strafford . to the matter of the defence , viz. that these particulars were not complained of ; mr. palmer answered , it is true , there is no particular complaint in the article : but , my lord of strafford , in his answer , said , he never deny'd licenses to any man to go into england , and that puts it in is sue , and gives occasion to prove his denyal . to the reasons of his propositions , mr. palmer observed , they were , viz. because he was responsible for the justice of the place ; and therefore good reason his integrity should be tried before any complaints came : the officers and ministers of justice should not be drawn from thence on every complaint , where they might have redress at their own doors . these are fair shows , and something must be said to induce his majesties allowance ; and , as much as art and skill could invent to prevent the subjects access to their sovereign with complaints of injustice and oppression ; it must have a great deal of wit and art to colour it , and so he uses it : their lordships cannot expect it from him , nor will their lordships expect it in the proofs , that he should tell his majesty he doth all this , that they may not complain of injustice and oppression , for this is a hard thing to be done ; but , the thing it self showes for what end he obtained it , his many acts of injustice prove , quo obtentu , this proposition was gotten ; if this had been gotten on the fair grounds pretended , then , upon complaints here , his majesty , in consideration of them , had had it in his own power , to have referred them back to ireland , if they were misinformed ; but , meanes were used that they should not come to the king , the barr was laid with the secretaries , and masters of requests , that his majesty should , by no means know , as to consider of the fitness , or unfitness of them . for the matter of the judges and ministers being withdrawn ; it is true , they were most likely to be complained of ; but , when they cannot be complained of but to my lord of strafford , this draws a great dependence on him , and makes them amenable to his will. as , in the sentences wherein they concurred , and whereby he would justifie himself . again , the discouraging of complaints in this proposition , and the arguments used to his majesty , provided a punishment for clamorous complaints ; so , that they , which had cause of complaint , being terrified with a punishment ( though they were not clamorous ) might now be made appear to be so . for the authorities whereby he justifies this proclamation . first , he insists on the lawes of that kingdom , that by the law they could not depart the realm , and that by an implication h. . but , mr. palmer observed , that that is no prohibition of coming out of ireland ; but , if any liege man , &c. shall , by the kings command , depart the realm , his lands should not be seized ; and , the only inference can be , that if others went without license , their lands might be seized , but not that their persons might be restrained from coming without licence . there were such provisions and ordinances in ireland , to which the instructions following , and his majesties letter had reference ; that those persons that had great possessions in ireland , in time of discord , were to be resident upon their land personally , so that their land might be maintained against incursions . and , this is plain , by a statute h. . ca. reciting the inconvenience from those they call absentees ; that is , that having large possessions by descent , or graunt , did demurre in england , and left those possessions unsafeguarded ; and , by this means , the lands ( which his majesty had been at great cost in conquering ) were regained by the irish , and therefore there was a penalty on those lands ; and , it is provided , that the king shall be entituled to the duke of norfolkes land for that cause : but , here is only a provision that the lands should be safeguarded , but not that the subject should not resort to the kings majesty , for redress of grievances and oppressions , and that is in the charge against my lord of strafford . for the instructions of may , , on a petition by the inhabitants ; the petition was , that they might make personal residence at least half a year ; but , that related to undertakers , and others that have lands and offices there , and so was for the same purpose that the lands should be safeguarded : but certainly , there is great difference between residence , and restraining a resort hither to make complaint to his majesty : it is true , there should be a residence , they were not to depart without licence ; but , if they had temporary occasions , or reasons of complaint , it is not against the instructions that licences should be deny'd . my lord insists on this , that it is the law of the land , and agreeable to the laws of this land , and he would willingly bring the laws of this land into ireland . but , under favour , the laws of this land are not so ; it is no offence , or contempt for any subject , to depart this land without licence : our books are so . the statute r. . did provide , that none should depart without license ( a general prohibition ) except they were lords and good merchants : therefore , by the law , ( before that statute was ) any man might depart without license ; and , that statute is since repealed , by a statute made iac. so that by the common law of england the passage is open again ; and , it is no offence at all to depart without licence . it is true , his majesty may restrain by a ne exeat regno , &c. or by a proclamation on special causes , but till then the passage is open , and they may depart by the law of the land , and the penalty is only in the case of the absentees . my lord alledges the kings letter ; there is as much skill as can be for a defence , the proclamation reciting these letters , and the instructions . but , the grounds are false : for , that which is appliable to a residence for defence , my lord makes a ground to restrain all kind of resort . my lord takes notice of his moderation , in executing the kings letter , in respect of the distance of time , between the letter , ianuary , and the proclamation , sept. . if it had been a service to his majesty , it should have been speeded sooner ; it was a disservice in being so long delayed , if the matter required it ; but , there was something else ; it was not fit for my lords opportunity till then ; and , when it was fit he publish'd it , and not before . my lord deserting his justification by the proclamation , as a temporary law ( as he may , for proclamations be not temporary laws , in case they be against law , but publication of lawes . ) now , he insists on this , that by his commission he himself hath not power to publish proclamations , but by advice of others ; so the power is not in himself alone , for he had the concurrence of other counsellors joyned with him . mr. palmer desired their lordships to observe his own answer ; and , the reason , why that unreasonable allowance was got , which is , that he is responsible for the justice of that place ; and , if he be so , he takes but their concurring with him ; in a thing so much against law , it may make it an offence in them , it cannot extenuate his offence . he insists on a necessity of this , that it is fit for that kingdom , and wishes it might be so continued ; and that in several respects ; in respect of o neale , and tirconnel , and the rebels that adhere to them ; and that it might be dangerous , if those in ireland should go out at their pleasure . indeed , if their resort were thither , it were true ; but , the commons having offered nothing , but their request to come into england , where there is no o neale , nor tirconnel , to complain to the king of oppressions : and , however my lord of strafford doth conceive it fit in ireland , their lordships hear by the remonstrance , what just fears they apprehended ; it is an innovation brought on them , which was never on their ancestors from the time of henry the second . the next thing was his demeanor in the execution of this proclamation ; then he made that general protestation , that these particulars were not complained of . to which mr. palmer said , he must answer as before . my lord hath put it in issue , that he never did deny licence , which casts the commons on proof , that that in particular hath been deny'd . the case of my lord of esmond is observed to be in time , . and whereas it is said , a license was deny'd , because there was some charge against him , of practising against sir walsingham cook. this needs no other answer , but what sir adam loftus has given , that the business was continued in examination no longer than three weeks , or thereabouts , and was then dismist ; whereas the denyal continued longer . but , if it be truely informed , this demand of licence to come over was in august ; the information came not till september after : so that the information cannot be applyed to avoid the denyal of the license . torky being asked the time of year the summer assizes used to be in ireland ? he answered , that he hath observed them , since his knowledge of that kingdom , to be in september for the county of wexford . whence mr. palmer inferred , that if the petition were in august , the assizes in september , this could be no reason , why in august an information in september should be the cause of denying the license . my lord sayes afterwards , he did give him a license ; but your lordships may remember , it was not till the opportunity was past of examining witnesses . and , whereas it hath been said , in answer , that my lord of esmond did joyn , and riley was produced ; yet riley sayes , there were two defendants , sir pierce crosby , and my lord esmond ; and , for whom the commission was , he cannot tell : and , if there were a commission , it is very ordinary to have more then one ; and , if it be desired , a second is just as the first . mr. ralton sayes , he is confident there was a commission : if there was so , why is not that record produced ? the next particular was my lord roche , and the answer to that is , that there was an information against him in the starchamber . it is true , but that had ceased half a year before he desired a license , and therefore could not be a cause to hinder a licence . for dermond mac-carty it is said , his petition was for liberty to go over for breeding , and therefore he might go to doway or st. omer . &c. but their lordships might observe this petition was to come into england , and the occasion was his relation to that suit , and that is conceived the cause of denying that licence ; for my lord could not but know that mac-carty had relation to the suit before him , which was decreed after a double dismission , and it is no exception that the witness is his sollicitor in the cause : it is ordinary that the sollicitor be admitted a witness , and the best witness in courts of justice . and to answer that fully and clearly , it shall appear , that this very thing is assigned by secretary little , to be the reason why he should not go over , that he might not complain of his suit , and a witness did depose to that effect . iohn meaugh bein sworn and interrogated to the cause of denying the said licence . he answers , that he went to dublin with mac-carty the son , with the petition , and that secretary little took the petition in his hand , and said , are not you mac-carty's son ? yes said he . and you intend to go and complain against the order my lord conceived against your father ? no indeed , sayes he , i do not ; sayes the secretary , i will take your petition and deliver it to my lord , and i believe my lord will not grant your request , and they left the petition and went out . a little after , a kinsman of his , the deputies master , sir valentine brown said to him , the son , i have heard my lord hath granted your request in your petition ; so they came to the place to receive the petition , and this is the petition shewed their lordships , when his , the deputies master saw the petition , he would not take it . take notice gentlemen , saith mr. little , what charge he hath , and if he doth any thing to the contrary , let it be on his peril ; so they took the petition , and went away . against parries testimony ; first , my lord says , he is a single witness , but if that be not admitted , there is no need of his testimony ; for secretary cook 's warrant proves what was the reason , and their lordships may know whence that came . his sentence is thus far in question here , whether he was sentenced for coming over or otherwise ; it is true ( and that is the iniquity of it ) the sentence doth express it to be for another cause ; it is not usual in sentences , to say what it is not for , but what it is for ; but it is for his not petitioning the council-table , and setting forth after in his petition , that his offence was his coming overwithout licence ; and saying mr. ralton pretended secretary cooks ' directions , whereas he must so speak truth , as not to be charged with a pretence . and it were most just to sentence him for coming without licence ; then for his being not called , nor any way able to answer the defence . that others are joyned with him in the sentence , it doth not excuse his lordship : they shew the more dependencie upon him , and by this means , no complaints of injustice or oppression , can be brought to any but himself , and that brings them under his wing ; however , the fault is in them , as well as in him . the remonstrance he says , is only a charge , but it is the declaration and voice of all the people , of sufficient credit , to represent their grievances , what they conceive to be their true liberty , and how they have used it ever since the time of h. . which is , that they should have redress for grievances , which is no other than the common-law ; that the subject should have free access to the sovereign . his last is , that there is nothing of treason in this : and to this the same answer is given , as to all the rest , which are not individual treasons . the multiplication of acts , all containing something in them of an arbitrary power , conclude , as effects from the cause , from whence this proceeds . and this thing is not so petty as my lord makes it , to deny the access of the subject to their sovereign ; and tho it be allowed by his majesties letter and instructions , yet these being obtained by himself , make it worse , he taking so sovereign a power , that non sentit parem , nec superiorem . mr. palmer instanced in that great case of the marquis of dublin , that had the dominion of ireland granted him , he had merum & maximum imperium , under the broad seal , and his patent passed in parliament , yet it was one of the articles charged on him , for it tended to the severance of the allegiance of the people from their king. in the next article their lordships shall hear his demeanor to those of the scotch nation . mr. maynard desired to add a word to what had been said ; first , my lord says , that the particulars are not in the charge , but that is a mistake , for this case of parry is particularly charged , and divers others ; it is true , the rest are general , but this is particular , so the charge is good in that . and whereas my lord had endeavoured to justifie this by law. mr. maynard observed , that they do not lay the point upon that , how far the subject may be restrained in that particular : but here is the sting of my lord of strafford's proceedings , he takes this ( be it lawful or unlawful ) to prevent the complaints which might be brought to his majesty against his injustice , for he hath done all that tothis people : now an ill intent may make that ill which in it self otherwise will not be ill ; and he besought their lordships to take this into consideration , what a miserable condition the subjects of ireland are in , when there are never so great grievances laid on them , yet they cannot complain , and no complaint can be received , unless he that oppresses them , gives them leave so to do , and when their oppressions ri● so high , when shall he give them leave ? my lord ▪ of 〈◊〉 says , thousands have come , yea many he is sure , that have not been punished nor questioned . whence mr. maynard observed . that it is ill ▪ l●k that the oppressed are always punished , others may go without punishment ; but it falls out unhappily , that they that have complaints against him , are the men that are restrained , and it may not be thought that they will bear a complaint sometimes , that they may seek a better opportunity , when they shall see such examples ; that is , one fined for exhibiting a petition , and saying , that is untrue ; when against another , an information that hath laid dead halfe a year , shall be quickened upon that occasion , and they must be punished more , that are more oppressed , as in the case of my lord of esmond . and whereas my lord of strafford says , he never punished any , where there was complaint before . mr. maynard besought their lordships to observe , that it is point blank contrary to the evidence , and oath before their lordships ; for in that particular case of mac-carty , there were two dismissions : it is true , the merits of the causes are not proper to be offered , but there is cause to take confidence , that where it is called a fraud on mac-carty's part , when it is examined , it will be a very heavy oppression . and whereas it hath been said by way of justification ( mitigation at least ) that there hath been no fees taken for licences , but such as were given voluntarily , except in case of officers of the state , or the army ; proof was offered , that mr. little that takes on him to swear for himself or his fellows , tho he did not know whether it were or no , hath denyed licence without fees ; and that certain fees were demanded , shall be made appear . whereupon richard wade being interrogated , whether fees were not demanded by the secretaries , for licences of mens passage into england , and what fees ? he answered , that for fees for my lord of esmond's licence , he was demanded or s. patrick gough being asked to that point . he answered , that he remembers he hath taken licences twice or thrice for my lord viscount mountgomery , and for every one of them paid s. and for three of his servants s. and that those were demanded , for he ( the deponent ) would have given less if they would have taken less , and that these were demanded by secretary littles servants . mr. glyn desired one word more , and the rather , said he , because it seems my lord of strafford slights this article , which is the most proved , and the least answer'd of any yet heard , their lordships may observe what is laid to his charge , the subverting of laws , and the introducing of a tyrannical government . and before he goes about his work , he puts off all means of redress beforehand ; that if he give any occasion of offence , he that is offended , shall not possibly have remedy . his justification is , because of that great danger that may ensue , for they may joyn with rebels , but that 's a pretence ; indeed he used that argument when he moved it to his majesty ; but it was , that they might not come over to make complaints . that his propositions were made , and entred at the council-table , here he aggravates his offence , and mr , glyn did thus illustrate it ; that if a man come to him , and desire leave to lye in his house , if he gives the party leave , and he by that means takes occasion to betray him , or to commit felony , or steal his goods , that leave was well given , but it aggravates the others offence , when he doth mischief to him that lodged him . so my lord of strafford's proposition was fair , but if their lordships observe the subsequence of it , that he might exercise his power , and leave the subject without means of redress , but they must come to himself for it . mr glyn further said , he thinks , had he suffered under his hands after the example of my lord mountnorris , he should be loth to say to his face , he would complain . an act of parliament he produces for his justification , which is plainly against him , for it shews there were some that held lands there by tenure , and if they were not resident they forfeited ; then comes the act and says , that those whom the king commands to be absent , they shall not forfeit , which shows they had a personal power without licence ; so that the very law produced , is expresly against him , and there lordships may see by his own proposition , the occasion of his introducing this letter . and mr. glyn concluded , that he supposes that my lord of strafford hath made no answer to that . and so the th article was finished , and the th and th being for the present set aside , the committee that managed the evidence , proceeded to the th article . the nineteenth article . the charge . . that the said earl having taxed and levied the said impositions , and raised the said monopolies , and committed the said other oppressions in his majesties name , and as by his majesties royal command ; he the said earl in may , the th year of his majesties reign , did of his own authority , contrive and frame a new and unusual oath , by the purport whereof among many other things , the party taking the said oath , was to swear , that he should not protest against any of his majesties royal commands , but submit himself in all obedience thereunto ; which oath he so contriv'd to enforce the same on the subjects of the scotish nation , inhabiting in ireland , and out of a hatred to the said nation , and to put them to a discontent with his majesty , and his government there , and compelled divers of his majesties said subjects there , to take the said oath , a gainst their wills , and of such as refused to take the said oath , some he grievously fined and imprisoned , and others he destroyed and exiled ; and namely the th of october , ann. dom. . he fined henry steward and his wife , who refused to take the said oath , pounds apiece ; and their two daughters , and james gray , pounds apiece , and imprisoned them for not paying the said fines . the said henry steward , his wife and daughters , and james gray , being the kings liege people of the scotish nation , and divers others he used in like manner ; and the said earl upon that occasion did declare , that the said oath did not only oblige them in point of allegiance to his majesty , and acknowledgement of his supremacy only , but to the ceremonies and government of the church established , and to be established by his majesties royal authority ; and said , that the refusers to obey , he would prosecute to the blood. mr. whitlock proceeded to open the th article , setting forth in substance as followeth . that the next article in which they shall proceed , to make good the impeachment of all the commons of england against my lord of strafford is the th article . that their lordships have heard his demeanor to the subjects of the irish nation ; what power he exercised over their liberties , their properties , their lives . that he used his majesties subjects of scotland in the same manner , exercising an unlawful power over their consciences , by imposing a new and unlawful oath on such of them as lived in ireland . that the kings subjects of the scotish nation , have the same benefit of protection from his majesty and his laws , as his other subjects have ; since they are bound to the same allegiance , to the same obedience , and therefore what ought not to be done to any other of the king's subjects , ought not to be done to them . that a new oath cannot be imposed , without assent of a parliament yet my lord of strafford is pleased to enjoyn this oath , to contrive it , to threaten them that desired to consider of it ; he sends forth commissions , to the gentry in the countrey to tender it , and such as refused were brought up by pursivants and officers to dublin , and committed to prison , and divers of them , rather than they would take this oath , were fain to forsake their families , their estates , and lands , and fly away , and were exiled the kingdom . that the charge , particularly mentioning the sentencing of henry stuart his wife , and two daughters , and one iames gray , above the age of . who for refusing this oath , were fined , stuart himself l. his wife l. his daughters l. apiece , and iames gray as much ; and in their sentence my lord was pleased to declare himself so bitter against that nation , and so much resolved , that this oath should be taken by all of them ( though against law ) that he publiquely said , that those who refused to take the oath , he would prosecute to the blood. that the scotch nation were rebels and traitors , and that if his majesty should please to send him back to the government of ireland ( he being then to come into england ) he would root out the scotish nation root and branch . and further , did declare , that this oath thus enjoyned , did bind to the ceremonies of the church , not only those that were establish'd , but such as were to be established : so that the oath had some affinity with the oath in this kingdom , not long since . sir iames mountgomery being interrogated , what he knew concerning the contriving and imposing of the said oath ? he answered , that he was very unwilling to give any testimony in this particular , because he knows there is a petition for this oath , to which petition his hand is among others , and therefore some perchance , who doe not know the passage of the business , may think there was a discordance , and a disagreement between the instrument under his hand , and the testimony he must give , being put to it upon oath , but he hopes there shall none appear when he hath spoken . that in april ( as he remembers ) . my lord-lieutenant , then lord-deputy , did write down letters to the most part of all the noblemen and gentlemen of the scotish nation , dwelling in ireland , ( in the province of ulster especially ) amongst whom the deponent received one letter himself , and he was required by that letter ( as the rest , whose letters were to one effect ) to repair to dublin , april as he remembers , that his lordship might confer with them about some affairs , that did concern his majesties special service , and therefore they were required not to fail to be there that day . that thither they came , and being come , my lord viscount mountgomery being not well in his health , having got a cold in his journey , the said lord viscount sent to excuse himself to my lord deputy , that he was not able to come abroad for a day or two ; and my lord deputy sent him word he would come to his lodging , and gave warning to the rest of the gent. to meet his lordship there the next day at two of the clock ; that there they did all come , and there were the bishops of down and raffo , and some others of the clergy ; and being met , my lord deputy came thither and told them , he was there as their friend , to acquaint them with some things that did much concern them , and to give them his advice ; he did then tell them of great disorders in scotland , of great jealousies raised against them , and that they who were present , might possibly be favourers , or furtherers of those distempers ; but he added , that he hoped better of them : however , that it behoved them to do something to vindicate themselves from this aspersion ; and that they should offer it freely of themselves , and not stay till it were imposed by authority . that he did insist further in his speech , and insinuated to them , what was expected they should do , and that they should be suitors for it . that an oath was expected according to the example of scotland , as they had there joyned in a covenant . to this purpose he did deliver himself . that when his lordship had ended , the bishops of raffo and down , one seconding the other , gave his lordship thanks for his lordships favour to them , and told his lordship , that as those in scotland had joyned together , and conspired by an unlawful oath , so they here would joyn in a lawful oath in opposition to that , and would petition for it to his lordship . it was seconded by the bishop of down , and some others of the clergy there , little being spoken by others . that the bishop of down desired he might draw it , but the lord-deputy put it on the bishop of raffo . that some of them thought it a little too hasty , and when my lord was risen up he ( the deponent ) took on him to speak to his lordship , and told him , the things spoken of there , were not charged against the nation , but against the covenanters in scotland , and did not concern themselves : and therefore thought , under favour , that it should not be amiss to think what they should doe , before they appointed a man to draw a petition , or to this effect . that his lordship was pleased to turn towards him something in choler , and to tell him ; sir iames mountgomery , you may go home and petition or not petition if you will , but if you do not , or who doth not , or to this effect , shall do worse . that they seeing his lordship had resolved it should be so , there was no more said ; the bishop of raffo went with the petition in his hand to some of them , being desirous to see it , to contribute their advice to them , and somewhat suspecting this train of the gentry , that night again the said bishop met with my lord mountgomery , sir william stuart , sir iames craig and himself , ( the deputy ) and brought two draughts of petitions : the one indeed was down right railing , the other not very mild he thinks : howsoever , they did desire to have qualified it something in words ; but the bishop told them , it was already so cold , he was ashamed of it , and could not engross it , till he had shewed it my lord deputy , to know whether he would accept of it ; the next morning some of them saw it with him , and took exception at some bitter words that were in it ; and the bishop said it was not to be disputed , for my lord deputy had seen it , and it was done with his good liking . after that it was engrossed , they met to have signed it , and some took exceptions , that there was too great a latitude in it , and desired it might be entred , that they should be in the case with other his majesties subjects ; but the bishop said , he could alter nothing , without my lord-lieutenants knowledge , and he would go to my lord with it , and to my lord mountgomery ; they intreated to go along with him , and my lord was willing these words should be added , that it should be in equal manner and measure with other his majesties subjects ; so the petition was ingrossed , and signed , and was afterwards delivered to his lordship : that then my lord deputy desired them , to appoint five or six of their number to wait on his lordship , and some of the council the next morning , to confer concerning the oath , and they made choice of six , the lord mountgomery , — stuart , and these two bishops , sir william stuart , and himself the deponent ; when they came , his lordship caused the clerk of the council to read the oath that was to be administred ; and some other debates they had , some offered some motions , to his lordship for some words , by way of explanation ; as that they should not protest against any of his majesties royal commands , and it was desired it might be explained , by just commands , or commands according to law. my lord did then tell them , they were not to expect any other commands from his majesty ; the oath was for no other intent , and needed no alteration . the bishop of raffo would have had more added , saying , the oath was so mean , he would not come from his house to take it ; and so my lord deputy told him , the oath had been well consider'd of , and needs no alteration ; that he the bishop then desired a copy of it , to carry to the gentlemen that were not present , and were waiting for them at my lord mountgomeries lodging . his lordship was pleased to deny that , but would send the clerk of the council , who should bring the oath and read it , and bring it back again , and he did so . after this , the next day , or that afternoon , they were appointed to come to the council-board , and have the oath administred ; that here they came , and my lord himself was pleased to administer the oath to every one of us , two by two , or three by three . and this was the manner of administring it . being interrogated , whether they knew the occasion of their being sent for ? he answered ; they knew not for what cause , nor heard any thing of it . being asked , if he knew what scotchmen were those that left the kingdom , because they would not take this oath ? he answered , that ( soon after they were dismissed in may ) commissions came into the countrey to certain commissioners , for administring the oath , to all of that nation , above the age of sixteen ; and , he believes ( whether by the main commission , or private instructions , he cannot tell ) that it was ordered , it should be administred , both to men and women above that age : and , they were all called at certain dayes by the commissioners ; some were scrupulous , and thought in their consciences , they could not take it ; others , that were satisfied in their consciences , did take it ; and those that did not take it , the commissioners were required to certifie their names , and places of residence , to my lord deputy and council , that they might be proceeded against , as contemners of his majesties royal authority , according to the proclamation , and commission . after the proclamation had called them , some did appear , and they that did not , their names were certified , and afterward pursivants issued to apprehend them that did not appear , or them , who on appearing , did refuse . he knows of many that fled away into scotland , and very many that fled up and down in the country , and many were apprehended by the pursivants , and carried up , and some he thinks were censured . being asked , whether they left their corn on the ground , and goods in their houses ? he answered , that they did . being asked , whether any papists of the scotish nation were sent for by letter , or had the oath tendered ? he answered , none of them that he could hear : and the oath was not administred to any of them , neither were they called . being asked , if there were not diverse scotish papists there ? he answered , yes ; diverse gentlemen of good quality : and he named some of them , viz. sir william hamilton , &c. being asked ( on the earl of clares motion ) whether the refusers fled into any part of scotland ? he answered , in truth not , to his knowledge ; but they fled out of the kingdom of ireland . the oath was next read , viz. in. do faithfully swear , profess , and promise , that i will honor and obey my sovereign lord king charles , and will bear faith and true allegiance to him , and will defend and maintain his regal power and authority ; and that i will not bear arms nor do any rebellious or hostile act against him , or protest against any his royal commands , but submit my self in all due obedience hereunto : and , that i will not enter into any covenant , oath , or bond of mutual defence , or assistance , against all sorts of persons whatsoever ; or into any oath , covenant , or mutual defence , or assistance against any person whatsoever , by force , without his majesties soveraign and regal authority . and i do renounce all covenants , contrary to what i have sworn and promised . so help me god in christ jesus . whence mr. maynard observed , from these words , that they shall not protest against any of his majesties royal commands . that he believed all men were satisfied , that his majesty never did , nor will command any thing unlawful , but what a subordinate minister may command in his majesties name , and publish , as his command , in ireland , their lordships have heard enough of , and that may make them tender to take the oath ; besides , the oath being new , it is conceived to be against law. mr. maxwell being sworn , and interrogated , in what manner were gentlemen sent for to dublin about this matter ? and what he knew in particular about it ? he answered , that he was one that received a letter from my lord lieutenant upon that account ; and that he , as well as the rest , were required to be all at dublin at a certain day ; and , being there , and my lord mountgomery being a little sick , and not able to go abroad , desired their excuse for a day or two . my lord deputy was pleased to give command , that all that were writen for , might be at my lord mountgomeries lodging : and , at the time appointed , my lord lieutenant came , and at his coming he called them together , and showed the dissenters in scotland , and desired that they would show themselves faithful and loyal subjects to their master ; and , that it behoved them , as their own desire , to petition for it ; whereupon my lord bishop of down , r●o , and some others of the clergy being there , did second my lords speech , and told them , that as they rebelliously proceeded in scotland , in that the scots had taken in hand against the king ; so they would do well by petition , and by oath to his lordship and the council , to shew their willingness towards their masters service : so my lord lieutenant was pleased to take hold of my lord downs speech ; and my lord down desired , he might be the drawer of the petition . but my lord perceiving him a little too vehement , told him , smilingly , that he would recommend that to the bishop of raffo : so the bishop of raffo was appointed for the drawing up of that petition . the next day they desired to peruse the petition , before it went to my lord ; and , after they had perus'd it , they went in to my lord lieutenant with it ; after he had seen the petition , he mended something in it ; and , among the rest , he remembers , the bishop of raffo told him , that my lord had put in , that these that were here should be of no worse condition , then the rest of his majesties subjects . the next day the petition was ingrossed , and signed by them , and presented to my lord lieutenant : afterwards there were two noblemen , two bishops , two gentlemen , appointed to go to my lord concerning the oath , and they desired a copy of the oath . my lord lieutenant sent sir paul davies out to my lord mountgomery , and it was read to them all ; and they were commanded to attend at the council-table , and my lord gave them the oath . sir hen. spottewood was offered a further witness , but their lordships being satisfied with what was formerly offered , spared his examination . and mr. whitlock observed , that they did produce these witnesses the rather , because my lord of strafford sayes , in his answer , they willingly came to dublin , and were suitors for the oath . whereas my lord sent for them ; when they were there , my lord perswaded them ; threatned them ; contrived the oath himself ; altered the petition ; appointed who should draw it ; which disproves what is in his answer alleadged . to prove , that because diverse of the scotish nation were tender , and loth to take the oath , or submit to all the commands of my lord of strafford ( though they would to the kings ) they fled the kingdom , and left their estates . sir iohn clottworthy being examined to that particular ; answered , that he could speak to this particular clearly to his own knowledge ; for then my lord was pleased to insert him as a commissioner in the said commission , and he was there sometimes , and beheld the execution of it . he did likewise see the multitude ( when the oath was generally prest on several commands from my lord deputy to enforce it ) did leave their dwellings , and habitations , their corn on the ground , and their cattle , and fled away ; but , whether into scotland , or no , he could not precisely say ; but so it was reported : but , that multitudes went away , he knew to be certainly true . being interrogated , whether my lord of strafford did , by his instructions , deny liberty to the parties to whom it was tendered , to peruse the oath ? he answered , that he cannot precisely charge himself with it , for the instructions are out of the way ; but that was ( as he verily remembers ) part of the instructions , that they should have the oath read over to them , but no copies delivered to them at all . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) whether the commission and instructions were not under the hand of the council , as well as himself ? he answered , that he never saw a commission under the hand of the deputy or council , but under the seal ; but the instructions were under the hand of deputy and council . and mr. whitlock observed , that my lord of strafford drew in the rest to himself . mr. whitlock then proceeded to the matter of the sentence , against stuart and gray , who were imprisoned , fined five times more than the value of their estates ; deteined in prison a very long time , very hardly and cruelly used ; and , on this sentence , were the words spoken by my lord of strafford , which showes his rancour to the scotch nation . richard salmon sworn , and interrogated , what he knew concerning the sentencing of stuart , his wife and daughters , and gray in ireland ? he answered , that on the th of october , , after the kings attorney , sir george ratcliffe , and many other lords and noblemen , had given their sentence concerning this oath , many of them pleading to make it high-treason ; and , that it was a merciful proceeding against mr. stuart , his wife , and two daughters , and gray , in that court : my lord primate came to shew , that if it had been against the first part of the oath ( to deny allegiance and supremacy to his majesty ) it had been so : but being against the second part , they were to be judged in that court. my lord of strafford told my lord primate , he was mistaken , and that the bishop of derry had said well , in that they would not abjure all other oathes , bonds , covenants whatsoever , it was as palpable high-treason , as if it were against the first part of the oath . thereupon my lord said , these people are mad : and i know not how to express my self , without going beyond my self , they have almost made me lose my self . but , sayes he , mr. s●t , now you have heard my lord primate thus much , what can you speak for your self ? mr. stuart answered , he was willing to take the first part of the oath ; but , in that the oath seemed to bind them , not onely in point of allegiance and supremacy , but likewise in point of ecclesiastical duties , therefore he durst not take it : my lord told him again , he ( the said mr. stuart ) was not mistaken , but had judged right ; the oath was not only intended to bind them to allegiance and supremacy , for that they had other oaths , but likewise to be obedient to the ecclesiastical ceremonies of the church , either established , or that should be established by his majesties royal command : and , that whosoever would be obedient to the ecclesiastical orders of the church , he would lay his hand under their feet to do them good ; but , whosoever would resist , he would prosecute them to the blood. being asked ( on the earl of clares motion ) whether he be a minister ? he answered , that he had taught school in dublin , but hath not taken orders . being asked , what other orders my lord of strafford let fall , concerning the scotish nation being rebels . he answered , he remembers my lord said , they had caused him to forget himself . he said also , that they were traitors and rebels : and that if his majesty would honor him so much , as to send him back again , he would eradicate root and branch even all of that nation out of the kingdom of ireland , saving such lords and others that had taken the oath . being asked , what fines were imposed on stuart , and the rest ? he answered , ( to the best of his remembrance ) it was l. on him , l. on his wife , l. a piece on his two daughters , and l. on iames gray . being asked , whether they were worth these sums ? he answered , that it is not known to him : but he conceives gray was not worth a hundred pound ; for , he lived on the maintenance of mr , stuart in the prison ; and , he knows not whether they paid any thing of the fine or no. but , mr. whitlock observed , that stuart was fain to sell his estate to pay his fine . iohn loftus being sworn , and interrogated , whether he was present at the sentence against mr. stuart and the rest ? and what it was ? he answered , he was in dublin , when mr. stuart , his wife , and two daughters , and iames gray , were brought by the sergeant at armes from their house to dublin , where they remained prisoners in his custody , and were thence carry'd one by one to mr. attorney , and sworn by him ; and after their examinations taken , were called to the court of star-chamber , and proceeded against ore tenus . at which hearing , he ( the deponent ) was ; and , after the rest of the lords had delivered their opinions , he heard my lord deputy deliver his likewise ; and his in substance was ; he consented in fine , to that the lords had laid before , viz. l. on stuart , l. on his wife , l. a piece on his daughters , and l. on gray : and my lord exprest himself , that he wanted termes to set forth the heinousness of this cause ; and , that he was to leave his sword ; but , if it pleased his majesty to return him thither again , he hoped to have such , as would not conform themselves to the discipline of the church , rooted up stock and branch . being bid to repeat his testimony , he said , he declared he was then to leave his sword , and if his majesty would return him thither again , such as would not conform themselves to the government of the church , who were of the scotish nation , he hoped to root them up stock and branch , or words to that effect . mr. whitlock did then sum up the evidence ; that he conceives it proved , that my lord of strafford contrived the oath ; sent for them of the scotch nation by letter , and then wrought with them to make it their own work , and suit ( though it was his command ) and , by threats to some of them , that did but desire to consider of it : that diverse of the scotch nation being tender in their consciences to take the oath , it being a new oath , and tendered without authority of parliament ; and so , rather than they would take it , were forced to leave their habitations , their corn standing , with all their goods and fortunes , and to flie out of the kingdom : that mr. stuart , his wife , and daughters , and one iames gray , were sentenced very deeply for refusing this oath ; and , that my lord of strafford declared , that this oath extended to the ceremonies of the church established , and to be established ; that the scotch nation were rebels and traytors ; not going to any particular man , but the nation in general . and , that if his majesty would send him back again to that government , he would root them out root and branch . this is to take a power far above the law ; this is to bind their consciences by an oath , and to force them to that which they are tender of ; the execution of this with so much rigor and cruelty , showes the strength of my lord of straffords design to alter the lawes , and to do it with a strong hand , with all his force , and with all this cruelty . and so my lord of straffords answer was expected . and then my lord of strafford , after a little respit , began to make his defence , in substance as followeth ; that almost every new article sets forth a new treason , that ( for his part ) he never heard of before : but , for this , that is now the treason , and concerns the administring of an oath to such of the scotch nation as were in ireland . he , the defendant , besought their lordships in the first place , to take into consideration , the time when this oath was administred because of something else , that in the conclusion , for his further justification , he shall be bold to offer to their lordships ; but , he will begin with that which is matter in hand ; which , though he cannot say was the true reason , that made him first think of it ; yet was a sufficient reason of it self , if there had been nothing else . the proclamation for this matter he remembred was dated th of may , , and , in what condition the kings affairs then stood , their lordships , and my lord steward in particular , who was general , are very well able to call to mind , and what fears there were of the ill events of the things then in hand . the apprehensions were , that the scots being a great body in ireland ( and not so few , he is perswaded , as , by reason of their nearness to their own countreys confining upon it ) might , perhaps , have intelligence and occurrence with their countrymen , called , those of the covenant . and , this was the sence of all that were ministers of that state under the king , as well english as irish , and even those of their own nation . thereupon they entred into consideration , how to secure that kingdom , and settle things in quiet . besides , there was a man afterwards condemned of treason , for having a plot and design to have seized on knock-fergus castle , and delivered it to a great man in scotland ( whom my lord said he would not name ) for which he lost his life afterwards . these particulars were confirmed by several witnesses . and , to prove that there was a debate at council-board , for preventing of these inconveniences , my lord of strafford desired some privy-counsellors of ireland might be examined . robert lord dillon being asked , whether he and the state of ireland were not very apprehensive of the danger , that might happen to the kingdom of ireland , if the scots should declare themselves any way to the disquieting of that kingdom ? he answered , that about that time there were some advertisements out of the north , of particular meetings , and contrivances of some plot or other by the scots , which made the state very apprehensive , that there might be danger ensuing , and that the consequence would be ill . being asked , whether there was not a course taken upon that for an oath , to secure the quiet of the kingdom ? he answered , it was debated at the board , and concluded , that it would be a great security and obligation on those of the scotch nation in ireland , to keep them from treating , or concluding any thing together , if there should be any invasion . being asked , whether it was not thereupon resolved , to consult the principal gentry of that nation , and to speak with them ? and , whether my lord of straffords letters were sent in persuance thereof ? he answered , that he thought the letters were singly subscribed by the lord deputy himself , but it was also with the privity of the council . sir philip manwaring being asked to the same point , answered , that at the time the proclamation issued , he was in england , which was the th or th of may ; but , before he came from ireland , there were very many apprehensions , that inconveniences might arise , and many considerations in council , which way to prepare and prevent them . sir adam loftus being interrogated to the same point ? answered , that there were at that time some apprehensions and fears of danger , that might arise from the people of the scotch nation , in respect of their numbers there , lest they should adhere to them of the covenant in scotland , and thereby endanger the kingdom of ireland at that time : and therefore it was debated at the council-table , that some oath or bond might be made , that might divert them from joyning in the scotch covenant ; and thereupon it was resolved , that the principal noblemen , and gentlemen of scotland , that were then in ireland , should be sent for , and there dealt withal , both to express their loyalty and service to the nation of ireland , by their due obedience , and also to offer some means that might be security to the king and themselves . and being further interrogated , whether my lord of strafford's , sending for these principal gentry of the scotch nation , was not with the privity of the council ? he answered , that he thought it was : and added , he was very confident it was , though the reason was not exprest in those letters . being asked ( on m r maynards motion ) whether he was there , when my lord mountgomery , and sir iames mountgomery made exception to the form of the oath contrived ? he answered , he was not present at any exceptions taken at it . being asked ( on m r whitlocks motion ) who were those that took it so chearfully ? and whether the bishops were not more chearful then others ? he answered , that indeed he observed no reluctancy . my lord of strafford here added , that he speaks it truly ( to the honor of that nation be it spoken ) the oath was taken with much chearfulness , and not any man made scruple in the whole business , to his understanding , save only sir iames mountgomery , but took it with all the readiness in the world. this is as true as he lives , and he thinks he speaks it for their honor ; and , were he one of the temporal men in that kind , he should be very unwilling to be asked , whether the bishops had been more ready to give allegiance to his majesty , than himself ? and he thinks , he that asked the question , doth them a great deal of prejudice in it . finding them thus prepared , he was glad of it ; and they being willing to prefer such a petition , he went to them , and served them with all willingness , as he had reason . the petition was cheerfully brought to him to be looked over , and to have his opinion how he liked it . it was brought him by my lord mountgomery sir iames mountgomery's brother , and some others , whom he remembers not . but these words he remembers particularly in it . an offering of their lives and fortunes , for vindicating the authority of regal power , which he said was too general ; and though they intended it well , might be turned too strictly on them , and therefore he desired , it might be qualified with these words , in equal manner and measure with other his majesties subjects ; and the words were put in by him , as he is sure , my lord mountgomery would justifie . the petition was read , and the act of state , wherein it is recited , being in substance as followeth . by the lord-deputy and council , wentworth . where we have lately made an act of council in these words . whereas divers lords spiritual and temporal , knights , and others inhabiting in this kingdom , have lately exhibited a petition to us , in these words following . to the right honourable , the lord deputy and council , &c. the humble petition of , &c. the petition recites , the horror apprehended by the petitioners , his majesties subjects of the scotish nation inhabiting in ireland , for the covenant sworn by some of their countreymen in scotland , without his majesties authority and consent ; their dislike therof , and their consideration , that the causes of that action may be understood , to reflect on the petitioners , though innocent . they crave leave to vindicate themselves from so great a contagion , and desire his lordship to prescribe a way by oath or otherwise , to free themselves from these proceedings , to declare their acknowledgement of the kings regal power , and their dislike of that covenant , and of all other covenants entred into , &c. without his majesties regal authority , which they are desirous to manifest by offering their lives and fortunes , to vindicate the honor , &c. of their sovereign , which they are ready to do in equal manner and measure , with other his majesties subjects , &c. and divers names were to the said petition subscribed . in consideration of which petition , we cannot but commend the wisdom of the petitioners , which we will not fail humbly to represent to his majesty ; and for that we know many of this kingdom , have expressed good affection to his majesty and his service , and dislike those disorders : we hold it fit , &c. to free them the better from the crimes and scandals which their countrey-men have gone into , as also to free them from all prejudice , and to approve to the king , and to the whole world , their allegiance to him and his regal power , and the dislike of that unlawful oath and covenant : we do therefore ordain , that all and every person of the scotch nation , that inhabit , or have estates , or any houses , lands , tenements , or hereditaments within ireland , shall take the oath herein expressed on the holy evangelists , on pain of his majesties high-displeasure . the tenor of which oath follows . &c. to several seect persons , &c. authorizing them to call before them , and administer the oath to every person of the scotch nation , &c. at such time and place &c. and such instructions as shall be in that behalf given by the deputy and council , &c. and to certifie the names of all that take the oath , and if any refuse to certifie their names , quality , and residences to the lord deputy , &c. and there is a command , that all of the scotch nation do appear before the said commissioners , at times by them to be appointed , and to take the said oath before them ; and that all persons may have due notice , we think fit this be published , dated may . to prove a design of seizing the castle of knock-fergus , my lord of strafford desired mr. slingsby might be examined , and being interrogated ? he answered , that about the time , when it was supposed the king was in the field of berwick , there was an advertisement from knock-fergus , that one trueman had writ a letter , for betraying of the castle there ; the party that sent the discovery was to be employed in the letter , and he enformed , there were the hands of twenty that should have subscribed it , the letter was conceived to be voluntarily from trueman , and not sollicited out of scotland . trueman was sent to dublin and examined , and sent back to be tryed in the countrey , and there he received his tryal , and was hanged , drawn , and quartered . being asked of what nation he was ? he says he doth not know of what nation , but he supposes he was an englishman . for his further justification , he saith , at the same time there was the like oath , and proceeding here in england . the copy of which oath now read , being affirmed by mr. ralton to be a true copy . iune . a copy of an oath tendered to some of the scotish nation , resident here in england , as it is entred in the scotish book , being in substance in doe faithfully swear , profess , and promise , that i will faithfully obey my sovereign lord king charles , &c. and defend and maintain his royal authority ; and that i will not bear arms , nor do any rebellious act against him , nor profess against any his royal commands , &c. and that i will not enter into any covenant or bond , &c. of mutual defence or assistance against any person , &c. or into any covenant , bond of mutual defence or assistance whatsoever , without his majesties sovereign and regal authority . and i do renounce and abjure all covenants , contrary to what is here sworn , professed and promised , and he submits it to their lordships wisdom and justice , what offence this had been for a deputy of ireland in a time thus conditioned for securing the publique peace of that kingdom , where he serves the crown upon such apprehensions as these , fairly without any constraint or violence offered , to endeavour by such a manner of means as this , to secure the king of the royalty and allegiance of his subjects . to procure it to these ends , by these ways , at such a time , how this can be strained to be high treason , he confesses he does not well understand ; especially , since he is confirmed in that opinion , by the allowance given of it here in england , as , by the oath read appears ; and if all this had been done by him solely as deputy , by the power of that commission he had from his majesty , where should be the crime that should rise so high , as to convince him of treason ? but that is not all , he hath something else to say for himself , and that is , the kings letter of his majesties own hand-writing , as followeth . wentworth , considering the great number of scots that are in ireland , and the dangerous consequences may follow , if they should joyn with the covenanters in scotland ; i hold it necessary you should use your best endeavour , to try them by an oath , not only to disclaim their countreymens proceedings , but likewise , never to joyn with any in covenant , or otherwise against me , to which purpose i command you , to frame and administer such an oath , to the abovesaid intent , to my scotish subjects of that kingdom , that i may know the well from the ill-affected of that nation , of which fail not , as you love my service . and so i rest , your assured friend ch. r. dated jan. . whitehall . so he had his majesties warrant , but handled the matter so , that he never discovered it . and this he conceives doth clearly justifie him in all his proceedings . that none can administer an oath , but by authority of an act of parliament , is , as he conceived , an ignorance ; and that upon a command , and being not against law , but intended for the better preservation of the peace of the kingdom ; a deputy of ireland might do it : and if he hath failed , he shall not willingly undergo any punishment , since it was an act of obedience , and if it were to do again ( being informed as he then was ) he must obey , and he had rather suffer in obeying his majesty , than dispute with his commands in that kind , and so he hoped , that for the oath and proclamation , he had said that which might acquit him before their lordships . then his lordship applyed himself to give an answer to the other matters , brought in his charge , and the next thing urged against him is , the cenfure of mr. stuart , his wife and daughters , and gray . that sentence was the very day before he came from ireland , michalmas was twelve months . to that he can say no more , but that he delivered his opinion concerning them , as the rest , in the castle-chamber , where the deputy hath no more voices , than such as my lord keeper hath in the star-chamber , a casting voice , if the voices be equal , and otherwise but a single voice ; and the truth is , that the whole court did agree in it . and for their fine , one of their own witnesses sayes , that he delivered his opinion , as concurring with the rest of the court ; so that the fines were set before it came to him to vote . and the greatness of the fine , was only to shew the greatness of the offence , and not with respect to the persons , or with any purpose to take the fines of the parties ; for when it shall be examined , it will appear , that little of that hath been paid or looked after , for they might have had their pardon the next day , if they would have taken the oath ; and if he that shall refuse the oath of allegiance , shall instantly incurr the penalty of a praemunire , the fine was very moderate in this case . in the oath there is nothing of ecclesiastical businesses , but only a temporal allegiance , though some of the witnesses speak of the extending it to the ecclesiastical affairs . my lord primate should have been a witness in the cause , but he is sick , and therefore if it may well stand with their lordships favour and justice to deferr this point , till he may be examined , and heard about it . the next thing was the words charged upon him , spoken at the same sentence , that the scotish nation were rebels and traitors , and that he would root them out of the kingdom , root and branch . these words he absolutely denyed , and so under favour , he said , he must doe still , being well assured , he never spake them ; and he is privy to his own heart so far , that he can as truly say , he never thought them . he knows very well what he owes to that nation , as being the native countrey of his majesty ; and that respect , if there were nothing else , is sufficient for him to wish to it all happiness and prosperity , which he doth from his heart . besides , he knows there be many of that nation , most faithful and loyal subjects , he trusts there are few amongst them otherwise ; and therefore for him to say , the whole nation are rebels and traitors ; certainly were a speech of a man frantique , and out of his wits , rather than of a man in his senses : for though he hath some infirmities , of hastiness in him , yet he is not so divested of reason and understanding , as to speak like a mad man , especially in things of this nature . his lordship repeated it , that he never spake them , never thought them , nor ever wished any thing to that nation , but honor and happiness in all his life ; nor hath he any manner of particular exception against them , either in general or particular . besides , he never received personal wrong from any of that nation ; he hath received many courtesies from some of them , and therefore owes them no animosity , but all the respects in the world . but when it comes to the proof , that is sufficiently justified , for nothing is proved of that they charge him with , and when he hath shown the weakness of the proof offered to convince him of them , he shall offer a witness or two , that will absolutely clear him . nor did he speak any thing whilst he was in ireland , concerning the nation in general , but whatsoever he spake , was concerning the faction in it ; and it is an easie matter for a man at a distance , to mistake one word for another ; and when he spoke of the faction there , it was with a great deal of more moderation , and better phrase than the words charged . for sir iames mountgomery , he hath said little as to this matter , for he was not there , nor speaks at all , as if he ( the lord of strafford ) should have carried himself in that business , otherwise than became him ; only himself confesses when sir iames would have some words put into the oath ( of lawful and just commands ) he ( the earl of strafford ) said that that was needless , for they could expect no commands from his majesty , but what were lawful and just , and such is the wisdom and justice of the king as he dares say they will always be so ; and the words of the oath are , they shall be so far complying with these commands , as in due obedience they are bound and obliged to be . so it was not caeca obedientia . sir iames sayes , that he ( the earl of strafford ) did administer the oath . this one single testimony ; but to tell their lordships plainly the truth , he confesses he did give that oath , being not only obliged by the council , but they directing him , and that the petition was not got forcibly from them , it appears evidently , for there is nothing against it . sir iohn clotworthy sayes , that on this oath administred , great multitudes went away , but he names not one of that multitude , and if they did go , who could help it ? if they would go away , rather than give such a pledge of their allegiance , he should have been loth to have restrained them , to make them stay against their wills. for the instructions that went with the commissions , sir iohn clotworthy very truly says , they were under the hands of himself and all the council , but what these instructions were , he cannot expresly say ; and that , under favour , he conceives is no witness , and so is no charge on him . but to express his rancor against the scotish nation , next come the words proved by richard salmon the schoolmaster , and he swears positively and directly , that he ( my lord of strafford ) spake these words the th of october . the plain truth is , that he ( the earl of strafford ) was come into england in september before ; and if that man shall notwithstanding , undertake positively to swear that individual day , he is less to be credited . the said time of his coming into england was confirmed by two witnesses . mr. thomas little being ( upon my lord of straffords motion ) asked , about the time of my lord of straffords coming from ireland . he answered , that my lord lieutenant came from ireland , thursday sept. . and landed the next day , and came to london sept , . mr. ralton being examined to the same point . answered , he very well remembred my lord came to london sept. . for the words themselves , that the scotch nation are rebels and traitors , and that he will root them out root and branch , the witness is a single testimony ; their lordships see how true he is in the first part of it , and he is equally true in the second . the other testimony is one iohn loftus , and he sayes my lord of strafford wanted terms to express the heinousness of that offence , and he hoped to have such of the scotch nation , as would not submit to the ecclesiastical government , rooted out stock and branch from that kingdom and this ( said my lord ) is quite another thing , and no way agreeing ; with the former , but nearer the truth , and far from rooting out the scotch nation ; for there are but few that submit not to the english church-government . so there is left only one single testimony of the schoolmaster , that hath not learned his lesson perfectly , but is taken tardy , as if he were a scholar ; and the other makes it quite another business : and as they have offered these things , and have not proved them , by more than one single testimony , and he a very infirm one ▪ he , my lord of strafford , besought their lordships that he might call for a witness or two , that were there , and heard all that passed , sir philip manwaring ( my lord said ) was a judge of the court , and nearer him than the witness , and likely to hear more distinctly : sir philip being asked what the words were , and of what nature they were , whether they were not restrained to the faction of the covenanters , and them that would not take the oath in ireland , and not the nation it self ? he answered , that he was present that day , and sate within the court and within hearing , so that he heard every word that fell from my lord deputy : it is true , his speech there was very long , but he shall repeat no more of it , than that he conceives pertinent to the present occasion , that is , whether he should say these words , against the whole nation , or speak only to the faction , and properly , and pertinently , shun the word nation . it was on the occasion of mr. stuart , who stood at the bar with his wife and daughters , and gray ; my lord telling him he was sorry , that bearing the name he did , he should be the only man that carried himself with that disobedience , and my lord expatiated very much , and in conclusion said , that scotish nation ( with respect i speak of it ) for i know there be among them gallant and worthy persons , and i have great experience of them , and of the loyalty and faith they bear to their sovereign ; but there is a faction amongst them , which i shall endeavour , as near as i can , to bring to that obedience , at least , to keep them that are within this kingdom , to that obedience , loyalty , and duty , that subjects ought to bear . being asked , whether my lord did not express himself at that time , that he would not take on him to judge any thing of the action in scotland , not knowing the law of that kingdom ; but such of that nation , as are here in ireland ; if they will not submit to the government of ireland , he will do the best he can , they shall not stay here ? he answered , that it is very true , my lord deputy did at that time speak to that purpose , as near as he can remember in truth ( viz. ) that he did not know the laws nor customs of that kingdom ; therefore would say nothing to them ; but for so much as concern'd the kingdom of ireland , and the keeping of the king's subjects in loyalty and obedience there , he would do his best to preserve that . being asked ( on mr. glyn's motion ) whether he heard these words root and branch , or stock and branch ? he answered , in truth he did not . robert lord dillon being asked to the words spoken by my lord of strafford in the castle-chamber at the sentence , and how he expressed him-himself concerning the nation of scotland ? he answered , that he confesses , it hath been his custom ( and it may be it is an ill one ) never to mind words spoken in the place , unless he supposes he shall be called to account for them : he remembers my lord spake of the refusing of the oath , and of some rigor to them that should refuse it , but for particular words , he members not . sir adam loftus being asked what he heard of these words ? he answered , that he was at the censure , but truly he cannot burden his memory with any the words that tend to this question ; it was a great while agoe , and he little thought they should come to any recapitulation of them , and in truth he doth not remember them . being asked whether stuarts sentence was not given by the unanimous vote of the whole council ? he answered , indeed he believes it was . sir philip manwaring being asked , what he heard the master of the rolls say that day ? he answered , that coming from the castle-chamber , waiting on my lord deputy to the castle , where many dined , and all that had been judges ; and mr. wainsford , the master of the rolls , took occasion to speak to my lord deputy , in his ( the said sir philips ) hearing , and commended him for carrying himself with that caution , that he had no way reflected on the nation , but the faction in that kingdom , and had shunned the words , which might reflect on the nation . and so his lordship concluded his defence , and said , he hoped that there was nothing proved that should touch him so deeply as treason ; for if the obeying of the commands of this case be so great a crime , he must confess , if it were to do again ( being not better informed by wiser men , tho hereafter he may be better informed , and prevent it ) he should be that trairor over again , and do the self-same thing again : and therefore if he had done it out of ignorance , he hopes their lordships will not look on him as having any evil intention or wicked purpose , but to serve his majesty with faithfulness , which he hopes will procure an easier judgement from their lordships , than to think of a high treason in this article . and then mr. whitlock made reply thereunto , in substance as followeth . that in his answer to my lord of strafford's defence , he shall begin with that , which his lordship was pleased to mention last , and also at the beginning , that this should not be accounted treason , he knows not the illegality of it , and if it were to be done again , he would do it on that command . whence mr. whitlock observed , that his slighting , or rather justifying of this offence , when he is told in this great presence , that it is against law , and will be made good , and appear to be against law , is a great aggravation of the offence . it is well known , that a new oath cannot be imposed without assent in parliament . it is legistativa potestas ; the oath of allegiance is as antient as our allegiance , and nothing needed to have been added to that : and , had it been tendered to them , as it might have been by law , this would have performed the kings command , which , under favour , went no farther , and would have been sufficient security of what was doubted and feared : but , my lord of strafford will go farther ; the oath that the law enjoyns doth not please him , he must have a new one framed by himself , and published by his authority , thereby to make his authority equal to an act of parliament . 't is indeed believed , there were some apprehensions of dangers in ireland , by the great number of the scots there , and a covenant in scotland then sworn , but that covenant is not to be medled withal now . the charge enforced against my lord of strafford , is not his care of preventing danger to the kingdom , but that he caused a new and unusual oath to be imposed ; and particularly , that they should submit to all the kings royal commands . the committee confess , and think , no man had ever yet a heart to doubt , that the king would command any thing that should be against law : but , it hath been sufficiently proved , that my lord of strafford ( a subordinate minister under the king ) hath published his own commands in the kings name , which are not justificable , nor according to law : and that , under favour , might be a good cause for the scots , to be tender of taking his oath ; knowing , that these commands here , were not his majesties immediate commands , but the commands of my lord of strafford , which they saw many times so unlawful and exorbitant . my lord of strafford hath produced diverse witnesses , to prove , it was debated on at council-board ; and , that the scots did chearfully take the oath : but , in this , he hath laboured to disprove his own answer , which is , that the scots came up , and desired to have an oath ; whereas it appears , the council-table thought fit to send for them by letters , under his lordships hand ; and it was propounded to them to take such an oath . he sayes , himself put these words into the petition ; in equal manner and measure with other his majesties subjects : which showes , that my lord of strafford himself had the perusal and correction of this petition , which is a good proof , that he contrived the oath . the petition doth only beseech my lord deputy , that an oath might be framed to vindicate themselves from the faction of their countrymen , and the covenant , which they might have done by the legal oath , the oath of allegiance . but he put something in above what they desired , and that was , for submission to all the kings royal commands : which may extend to liberty , to property of goods , and so is a great deal further , than his majesty was pleased to command by his letter , wherein there was nothing but what was very fit to be commanded by my lord of strafford , and very fit for him to obey . and , what if my lord of strafford should procure a letter from his majesty to do that , which is not warrantable by law ? the kings considerations are far above the particular points of the municipal law of this kingdom ; he cannot know them , but is to be enformed of them by his ministers : now , if my lord of strafford shall misinforme him , and desire to have that by his authority , which is not warrantable by law , the fault is my lord of straffords ; and , it much aggravates the crime ; but , the kings letter doth not warrant my lord of strafford , for he hath proceeded further . he sayes , concerning the censure of mr. stuart , that he delivered his opinion among the rest : but , their lordships may remember , he went as high as to charge him with treason . it is true , the bishop of derry conceived it might be treason ; and , the primate said , the denial of the former part might be treason , but not the latter : but , my lord of strafford conceived the latter part to be treason too : and therefore , surely , his opinion had more harshness and severity then the rest ; and , being his opinion , it was of sufficient weight to carry along with him all the rest : and , that which was his own act at the beginning , which he contrived and treated with the scotch lords and gentlemen , that he persues in his sentence ; and , if others joyn with him in a hard sentence against law , his fault is not the less , but rather the greater , to draw others into the same fault . his lordship says little of the fine that is paid . it is true , it cannot be proved how much was paid ; but , those that were fined continued in prison till very lately , for that fine . and , whereas he sayes , any , taking the oath , might have been released the next day . it is the more cruelly done , to keep them in prison till they take an oath , who cannot satisfie their consciences , that they may take it . my lord sayes , if one refuse the oath of allegiance in this kingdom , he shall incur a premunire , and this sentence was more moderate , indeed , if that had been tendered , they had incurred the like sentence , and that might serve the turn ; but , my lord must stretch his power higher , and above the law ; he would frame a new law ; and , for not observing that , a new punishment too . he sayes , there is nothing of the ecclesiastical discipline in the oath : but , the witnesses expresse it , that my lord interpreted it , to extend to the observation of the ceremonies , and government of the church established , and to be established . his denial to speak the words , that he would root out the scotch nation , doth not disprove that , which is so clearly and strongly proved by two witnesses . he sayes , he should be frantick , if he should speak such words : but one of the witnesses said , he exprest himself to be transported , and that he knew not what he said in that sentence . he sayes , he never received wrong from that nation , but curtesies , then those words show the more ingratitude . he says , sir iames mountgomery speaks nothing that sticks on him : it is true , he speaks only to the contravening of the oath ; but , he shows that to be expresly otherwise , then in my lords answer . he confesses he gave the oath : but , whether he did or no , his authority injoyning of it , would have been all one . he says , sir iames mountgomery desired the words , iust and lawful commands , might be added : and , that my lord expounded it , no other were intended . but then there was the less reason to deny the inserting some of them , for their sakes that were tender , and desired to have them put in , for their satisfaction . he sayes , that sir iohn clotworthy deposes , that multitudes of the scotch nation went away ; but , he names none : but , if sir iohn be asked , he will give very good satisfaction . sir iohn clotworthy being asked to that point ? he answered , that he might easily , amongst so great a multitude , remember so few names ; and when he heard my lord of straffords exception , multitudes did throng in upon him , whereof he did now particularly name about six , and said , he could name a great many more . being asked , concerning the execution of trueman , as a traytor , for the matter of knockfergus ? he answered , that he was at knockfergus at the assizes , when this trial was concerning this trueman ; and was then on the bench , and heard all the passages of the business ; whereof he made this brief relation as followeth . this trueman was an englishman , that dwelt not far from knockfergus , and one that was sent about the country ; but , by whom , sir john could not tell : but , there were vehement suspitions , that he was imployed to find out those that would engage in discourse concerning the scotch business ; he spake with one captain giles , who feigned himself a great friend of the scotch nation ; and said , that he conceived they were greatly distressed ; and wished , that he could use means whereby they might be eased . hence he discoursed with true-man , who was but a silly man , and got from him words , whereby he discovered a good will to the scotch nation ; and some discourse about the castle of knockfergus ; insomuch , that he got truemans letter to recommend him into scotland , whether he pretended a desire to go , to serve under that command : upon this he produced the letter , and that was given in evidence against him , and so he was condemned and executed . mr. whitlock proceeded , and said ; my lord alledgeth for his justification , another oath , enjoyned here to the scots , by the authority of the council-board ; but , this gives no countenance to that in ireland ; for the oath enjoyn'd , there was another after that , enjoyned by my lord of strafford : therefore that which came first , can receive no colour from that which came last . and the oath here being the same ( as near as we can remember ) with that in ireland , was rather a precedent for this . howsoever , the committee never heard that the oath here , was executed , or enjoyned to any . though richard salmon was mistaken , in point of time , of speaking those words of the scotch nation at the sentence ; yet , he speaks to the substance and matter of the sentence and words , and it was when my lord of strafford was in ireland : and though the name of the month be mistaken , it cannot weaken his testimony ; and my lord of strafford confesses he was at the sentence , and the day before he came to england . and , with him , concurs loftus , though not in words , yet in substance . my lord produced witnesses concerning these words . sir philip manwaring affirms , my lord said , he was very sorry stuart should be the only man : yet , it is proved , that diverse were brought to dublin , and imprisoned there ; and many hundreds forsook the kingdom , and left their estates ; therefore he could not be the onely man. but , though he and the rest remember not the words , yet if the witnesses produced do precisely remember them , the forgetfulness of my lord of straffords witness shall not at all impeach the other . so the committee concluded thus ; that it stands clear , that my lord of strafford hath assumed a power to himself above law , to administer an oath contrary to law ; a new oath , to bind mens consciences with great severity . he said formerly , he would make an act of state equal to an act of parliament , and nothing can make an oath but an act of parliament ; in this therefore he is as good as his word . this is an assuming of a power above royal-power ; for an act of parliament cannot be made , without the three estates , their lordships and the commons are interested in it ; for , this is not — penes potestatem ministri . mr. maynard added , that some exceptions had been taken against sir iames mountgomery , viz. that he was scrupulous to the petition , but not to the oath . my lord of strafford takes a power to administer an oath . it is hard to lay such bonds on any ; but , to put it on general and ambiguous words , is much harder : and , how far that may intrench on any man , if for refusing such an oath he shall be sentenced in the star-chamber , more then he is ever able to pay , and more than my lord of strafford confesses he would expect payment of ; this is so transcendent an incroachment , that there cannot be a greater : for , it takes away liberty of conscience , and endangers the whole estate . and , the kings letter doth not justifie the proceeding at all : for , had my lord persued that , and gone no farther , there had been no complaint ; for his majesty enjoyned him to take an oath , that might distinguish one from another ; but , doth not enjoyn to punish them that refused it : the grievance is the coertion of it ; and so , under favour , it is no justification . mr. stroude added , that my lord of strafford , at the end of his speech , said , if this were treason , and the occasion offered , he would be ready to do it again . and mr. stroude said , he must confess he doth believe him : and , this makes him consider a heavy thing that once befel this kingdom ; when gaveston came to over-act his bold offences , how heavy that befel the kingdom , he leaves to their lordships consideration . my lord of strafford desired to clear this point ; and said , the gentlemen is a great way off him , and may easily mistake ; for he said , were it again to do , being no better informed then he was at that time , he should do it : but now he understands more than he understood before . but , mr. stroud answered , that under-favour he did not mistake my lord ; for , he remembred , how fierce my lord was upon an oath in the case of the loane when he was a commoner . my lord of strafford did here desire a motion or two : the first importing , that he should be very unwilling any thing should befall him , that might be a prejudice to the peerage of the realm ; and , out of the duty he owes to that , he might crave leave humbly to enform their lordships , that he hath a great family in ireland ; his wife and children are there ; that all he hath is seized on : so that he hath not , as he protested ( but as he borrowes it ) money to buy meat to feed himself here : and , how his wife and children , and servants do in ireland , he knows not ; but , that they are under the providence of almighty god. that it is a heavy case , that being impeached of treason ( and constructive treason , he hopes , it will prove at the most ) that he should be thus used , being a peer of the realm , to have all he hath taken in this sort , and his wife and children , and family thus unprovided for , and left without so much means as to feed themselves : he therefore besought their lordships to take him into consideration , that he may not be worse than the meanest sort of people , having the honor to be a peer , under the pretence of treason . the second was , that , since my lord-keeper , and my lord of northumberland may be very good witnesses for him in the subsequent charge , that will next come before their lordships : and , whether my lord cottington be in disposition to be here on monday , he knows not ; that therefore some course might be afforded , that he might have the benefit of their testimony , when he shall come to answer the next charges . being demanded by the lord steward , by whom his goods were seized ? and , whether by the orders of the house of commons read the other day , that their lordships might clearly understand him ? his lordship answered , yes : from whence sir iohn clotworthy observed , that , by these orders , nothing could be inferred , but a sequestration of the advantage , that might possibly be had by the tobacco ; and , that his lordship had a fair estate in ireland of — per annum acquired , since he came into ireland , which is not at all touched . to which my lord of strafford replyed , that he had a thousand a year in ireland , and that was all : and , he had two hundred and sixty in family ; and , how those can be maintained ( all the customs being seized , and a little money he had , having but narrowly escaped ) he desired their lordships to take it into their consideration . for these particulars , his lordship had direction to petition to their lordships ; and so the house was adjourned , and monday morning next appointed to proceed about the articles . the council for the house of commons having proceeded against the earl of strafford article by article , till they came to article , but then finding the following articles so nearly related to one another , they would tye themselves no more to these rules ; but , pleaded for liberty , to handle them , not as they lay , but as they were related to one another : and , after my lord strafford had long and vigorously opposed this , my lord high steward determined the case , and ordered , they should be handled promiscuously , and in cumulo , as the council for the commons-house should think fit . therefore i have set down these articles that were thus debated here . the twentieth article . the charge . . that the said earl hath , in the fifteenth and sixteenth years of his majesties reign , and divers years past , laboured and endeavoured to breed in his majesty an ill opinion of his subjects ; namely of those of the scotch nation . and diverse and sundry times , and especially since the pacification made by his majesty with his said subjects of scotland in , summer , in the fifteenth year of his majesties reign ; he , the said earl , did labour , and endeavour to perswade , incite , and provoke his majesty to an offensive war against his said subjects of the scotch nation : and the said earl , by his counsels , actions , and endeavors , hath been , and is , a principal and chief incendiary of the war and discord between his majesty and his subjects of england , and the said subjects of scotland , and hath declared and advised his majesty , that the demands made by the scots , in their parliament , were a sufficient cause of warr against them . the said earl having formerly expressed the height and rancour of his mind towards his majesties subjects of the scotch nation , viz. the tenth day of october , in the fifteenth year of his majesties reign , he said , that the nation of the scots were rebels , and traytors ; and he being then about to come to england , he then further said , that if it pleased his master ( meaning his majesty ) to send him back again , he would root out of the said kingdom ( meaning the said kingdom of ireland ) the scotch nation , both root and branch . some lords and others , who had taken the said oath in the precedent article , onely excepted : and the said earl hath caused diverse of the ships and goods of the scots to be ●aped , seized , and molested , to the intent to set on the said war. the one and twentieth article . the charge . . that the said earl of strafford , shortly after his speeches , mentioned in the last precedent articles , to wit , in the fifteenth year of his majesties reign , came into this realm of england , and was made lord lieutenant of ireland , and conti●ed his government of that kingdom by a deputy : at his arrival here , finding that his majesty , with much wisdom and goodness , had composed the troubles in the north , and had a paci●ation with his subjects of scotland ; he laboured , by all means , to procure his majesty to break that pacification , incensing his majesty against his subjects of that kingdom , and the proceeding of the parliament there . and having incited his majesty to an offensive war , against his subjects of scotland by sea and land , and by pretext thereof to raise forces for the maintenance of that war , he compelled his majesty to call a parliament in england : yet the said earl intended , that if the said proceedings of that parliament should not be ●ch ▪ as would stand with the said earl of straffords mischievous d● , he would then procure his majesty to break the same , and , by ways of force and power , to raise monies upon the sub●cts of this kingdom . and , for the encouragement of his majesty to hearken to his advice , he did , before his majesty and privy-council , then sitting in council , make a large declaration , that he would serve his majesty in any other way , in case the parliament should not supply him . the two and twentieth article . the charge . . that in the month of march , before the beginning of the last parliament , the said earl of strafford went into ireland , and procured the parliament of that kingdom , to declare their assistance in a war against the scots ; and gave ●ns for the raising of an army there , consisting of foot , and horse , being for the most part papists as aforesaid . and confederating with one sir george rateliffe , did together with him the said sir george , traiterously conspire to employ the said army , for the ruine and destruction of the kingdom of england , and of his majesties subjects , and of altering and subverting of the fundamental laws , and established government , of this kingdom . and shortly after , the said earl of strafford re●ited into england , and to sundry persons , declared his opinion to be . that his majesty should first try the parliament here , and if that did not supply him , according to his occasions , he might use then his prerogative as he pleased , to levy what he needed ; and that he should be acquitted both of god and man , if he took some other courses to supply himself , though it were against the wills of his subjects . the three and twentieth article . the charge , . that upon the thirteenth day of april last , the parliament of england , 〈◊〉 and the commons house ( then being the representative body of all the commons in the kingdom ) did according to the trust reposed in them , enter into debate and consideration of the great grievances of this kingdom , both in respect of religion , and the publique liberty of the kingdom ; and his majesty referring chiefly to the said earl of strafford , and the archbishop of canterbury , the ordering and disposing of all matters concerning the parliament : he the said earl of strafford , with the assistance of the said archbishop , did procure his majesty by sundry speeches and messages , to urge the said commons house , to enter into some resolution for his majesties supply , for maintainance of his war against his subjects of scotl before any course taken for the relief of the great and pressing grievances , wherewith this kingdom was then afflicted . whereupon a demand was then made from his majesty of subsidies , for the release of ship money only ; and while the said commons then assembled ( with expression of great affection to his majesty , and his service ) were in debate and consideration concerning some supply , before any resolution by them made , he the said earl of strafford , with the help and assistance of the said archbishop , did procure his majesty to dissolve the said parliament , upon the th day of may last ; and upon the same day , the said earl of strafford did treacherously , falsly and maliciously , endeavour to incense his majesty against his loving and faithful subjects , who had been members of the said house of commons , by telling his majesty they had denyed to supply him. and afterwards upon the same day , did traiterously and wickedly counsel and advise his majesty to this effect , viz. that having tryed the affections of his people , he was loose and absolved from all rules of government , and that he was to do every thing that power would admit ; and that his majesty had tryed all ways , and was refused , and should be acquitted towards god and man ; and that he had an army in ireland ( meaning the army above-mentioned , consisting of papists , his dependants , as is aforesaid ) which he might imploy to reduce this kingdom . the four and twentieth article . the charge , . that in the same month of may , he the said earl of strafford , falsly , traiterously , and maliciously , published and deciared before others of his majesties privy council , that the parliament of england had forsaken the king , and that in denying to supply the king , they had given him advantage to supply himself by other wayes ; and several other times he did maliciously , wickedly , and falsly , publish , and declare , that seeing the parliament had refused to supply his majesty in the ordinary and usual way , the king might provide for the kingdom in such wayes , as he should hold fit , and that he was not to suffer himself to be mastered by the frowardness and undutifulness of the people : and having so maliciously slandered the said late house of commons , he did , with the help and advice of the said archbishop of canterbury , and the lord finch , late lord keeper of the great seal of england , cause to be printed and published in his majesties name , a false and scandalous book , entituled , his majesties declaration of the causes that moved him to dissolve the last parliament , full of bitter and malicious invectives , and false , and scandalous aspersions against the said house of commons . monday , april . . the right honourable the lord steward did this day in the first place , acquaint the gentlemen that managed the evidence at the bar , that their lordships had commanded him to let them know , that my lord of strafford on saturday in the evening , gave in his petition for the examination of my lord of northumberland ; and that he coming in so late , it happened so , that the gentlemen of the house of commons could not possibly have leave to cross examine , and so the examinations are come only on one side , sealed up ; wherefore his lordship proposed , that things might for the present be so carried , as the proceedings of this day might not be hindred thereby . mr. whitlock answered , that they shall go on according to their lordships order , but he desired the cross-examination of my lord of northumberland , and the testimony of some other witnesses that are sent for , and not yet come ( whose names they shall give in ) may be reserved . to which my lord of strafford replyed , that the motion is very new to him , and in these things of form , he may be easily mistaken , and prejudiced before he is aware : that to their cross-examining of my lord of northumberland , he is very willing ; but for examining of witnesses , whose names are not yet known , and to have such a latitude as to reserve supplemental proof , he conceives may be hard , and so appeals to their lordships , whither their lordships will not have them name their witnesses , and assigne them a certain time , within which they shall examine them . and he desires likewise , the examination of my lord keeper , who is not yet examined , may be reserved for him . and likewise that my lord of canterbury may be examined , he having been examined , ( as he understood ) against him , which if he had not been , he should not have moved it : and that the advantage of their two testimonies may be reserved to him . but mr. whitlock and mr. maynard thus explained it , that they intend not to examine those who are not yet named in writing , but to produce them viva voce ; and that they should take the boldness to name one of them to their lordships , and that is mr. sergeant glanvile , who was sent for eight days since , and will be in town to night , and for my lord of canterbury , if they have examined him , it was before his charge , and they shall make no use of his examination , neither is he a person capable of being a witness , being now charged , and in some particulars , for conspiring with the lords at the bar , and therefore they submit it , whether it be convenient he should be examined , though if they shall urge his testimony , it will be something ; and likewise their lordships over-ruled it in sir george ratcliff's case . but my lord of strafford submitting all to their ordships good pleasure , it being his part only to move ( as his lordship said ) and do what their lordships should in their wisdoms think fit . the lord steward declared their lordships pleasure , that sergeant glanvill and the other witnesses might be reserved to be heard to morrow viva voce ; and that the examinations of my lord of northumberland , and my lord keeper might be likewise reserved ; for my lord of canterbury it was observed , that he was examined before the charge , and that the gent. of the commons-house intend not to make use of his testimony . and so the committee proceeded to the next article . mr. whitlock proceeded , putting their lordships in mind , that they had been pleased to take a view of my lord of strafford's courses in ireland , which have manifested his designe to subvert and change the law and bring in an arbitrary government ; that his execution of that arbitrary power upon the persons , estates and lives of the kings subjects there , hath been a clear proof of this his designe . they shall now proceed to show their lordships what his designe was in england and scotland , as the same was set forth in the th , , , and th articles , together with the matters contained in them , they being interwoven and depending one upon the other , and so are but one business . my lord of strafford did thereupon offer , that he conceived it was agreed , they shoul go article by article , that his memory is short , and his abilities weak ; and if three or four be brought together , his memory will not serve him to give them that account , that otherwise he should be able to do ; and since the order of proceeding article by article was by consent , he besought that course might be persued , not giving consent to the alteration of it . but mr. maynard desired leave to remember their lordships , that they offered to go article by article , till they came to some that were woven together , which might change the course . they find much time is lost between article and article , and there will need no great consideration of of these , being only about words ; and when my lord of strafford stands by way of defence , he may not inform them which way to proceed , and they will proceed no way differently from what was formerly proposed . my lord of strafford humbly appealed to their lordships , whether the favour offered him for recollecting his notes , had spent much time ; and added , perhaps if another man had been in his case , he would have thought as long a time as he had taken , necessary , tho a far abler man than himself ; but this inverts the whole order agreed on , and brings him to a great inconvenience , and therefore he desired he might answer them single , in the mannor as was agreed upon . to which mr. whitlock answered , that if the articles be not proceeded in together , and as having relation to one another , they will loose much of the application , evidence , and proof ; and he conceives will be more easie to my lord of strafford : and for the order mentioned , there was , under favour , no order in it ; but when my lord of strafford made the motion ( mr. whitlock said ) he took the boldness to inform their lordships , that he should proceed on some of them altogether , which my lord of strafford did not deny , and their lordships approved of , and according to that they desire to proceed . mr. glyn adding , that he never knew before this time , a prisoner at the barr prescribe a method to the evidence , especially if he be charged with high treason ; and my lord may afford them the same favour they do him , for if he will answer article by article , he may ; but as they leave him to his course , so they desire to take their course . but in that case my lord of strafford desired he might have time to answer till to morrow morning , and professed that he should be extream unwilling to offer any thing that became him not in humility and modesty , or to prescribe a course to any , he being in his condition ; but he trusts he may with humility and duty , offer to their lordships consideration , these things that may be for his assistance and defence , without offence to any . so the committee that managed the evidence for the commons-house , had direction to proceed as they had propounded . mr. whitlock then proceeded to open the charge of these articles , which will refer , to prove a designe of my lord of strafford against scotland , to subvert their parliament , and our government here , and to bring in an army on us , to force us to submit to an arbitrary power . first , they shall apply themselves to prove his designe against scotland , which lies first in the charge ; that he advised the king two or three times , that the demands made by the scots in their parliament , were a sufficient ground for a warr against them , notwithstanding that parliament was indicted by the kings royal authority , and they have their liberty to propound and treat . your lordships may remember what my lord of strafford said at the sentencing of stewart in ireland , whereby he expressed his hatred and rancor towards them , and his opinion of them at that time , being after the pacification made , and he continues in the same ill opinion of them , and to give the same ill council . that at another time he told his majesty , the demands of the scots in their parliament , were not matter of religion ; but struck at the root of government , and that it was fit to punish them by force . that he caused the ships of the scots in ireland to be seized . that he procured the parliament in ireland to declare their assistance , and give supply for a warr against scotland , and that several times he endeavoured to perswade his majesty to an offensive warr against the scots , under which particulars will fall in proof , his design against scotland . his design against england was of the same nature , which will appear by his words and by his councils , and by some speeches given out by those that have very near relation to him , and are his creatures , who agreed with his own words likewise . they shall prove to their lordships , that on a discourse between sir george ratcliffe and sir robert king , concerning the war with the scots , and my lord of straffords being engaged in it . sir george ratcliffe told him , we are ingaged in a war with the scots , and we must go on with it ; and being demanded how the king would do , if he were not supplyed by parliament ? he said the king hath men , and l. in his purse , and his sword by his side ; and if he wants money , who could pity him ? that he said likewise he could make peace with the scots when he list , but that was the worst of evils . there were other words spoken by sir george wentworth , my lord of strafford's brother , to a gentleman , a member of the house of commons ; that england was sick of peace , and it would never be well with it , till it were again conquered . these were the words of others his creatures , they shall prove his lordship's own words and counsels . that he declared his opinion to my lord primate of ireland , that in case of necessity , his majesty might use his prerogative , to levy what he needed , saving first to try the parliament , and if that supply him not , then to use his prerogative as he pleased . that at another time when my lord conway , a nobleman of this house , was pleased to ask him , how the forces raised , and to be raised , should be paid ? my lord of strafford said , he doubted not but twelve subsidies would be given . my lord conway putting the doubt to him again , what if they should not be given ? my lord of strafford was pleased to reply , then the king would be acquitted before god and men , if he took some other course to supply himself , though it were against the will of the subject . at another time , when his majesty had graciously declared himself , that he would have a parliament , he was pleased to say , that in case the parliament should not supply him , he would be ready to serve him in any other way . these words and counsels were all before the calling of the last parliament . in the time of the sitting of the parliament , the house of commons were frequently urged by messages , procured by my lord of strafford from his majesty , to take consideration of the kings supply for a war a-against scotland ; and before consideration and relief of the grievances in religion and government of the kingdom , subsidies were demanded , for release of the ship-money only , and when the house of commons were in debate concerning supply , and before they came to resolution , by advise of my lord of strafford , that parliament was dissolved . after the parliament was dissolved they shall show , how , by divers words and counsels my lord of strafford endeavoured , to incense his majesty against his loving subjects , and so to slander them to his majesty , as to make a division between them ; and also of his design , to bring in an army upon us . that he declared to his majesty , that the parliament had denyed to supply him , and had quite forsaken him : and that he said to a noble earl of that house , that the parliament in this great distress of the king and kingdom , had refused to supply the king in the ordinary and usual way , and therefore the king might provide for the kingdom , by such ways , as he thought fit ; and that the king was not to suffer himself to be mastered by the frowardness , and undutifulness of his people . that he said at another time to a nobleman in this house , that the parliament in denying to supply the king , had given him advantage to supply himself by other ways . and if worse words can be uttered or spoken than what have been mentioned , they shall conclude with such of his words , as none can be imagined to be of more fearful and dangerous consequence , viz. the same day that the parliament was dissolved , my lord of strafford , by way of advice and counsel , told his majesty , that now he had tryed the affections of his people , and that he was loose , and absolved from all rules of government : that he was to do all that power would admit ; since he had tryed all ways , and was refused , and should , in so doing , be acquitted before god and men , and that he had an army in ireland , which he might employ to reduce his kingdoms . they began with that which concerned scotland ; the earl of traquair being sworn , was asked , what he remembred to be spoken by my lord of strafford , concerning the demands made by the scots in their parliament , when he ( my lord traquair ) made relation of those demands , with the time , and other circumstances . he answered , that it would be hard for him to answer to so general a question , for their lordships , and a great many know , that he made relation of the demands made by the scotch subjects in parliament , at two several times , one by the king's command here , before the lords of the council : another by the like command of his majesty , before the peers at york . but being directed to apply himself to the words spoken by my lord of strafford , when he made his relation before the council here . his lordship answered , that he could hardly give an answer to such a general question ; but he believed my lord of strafford when he was at council , gave his opinion in any thing brought in debate , as the lords of the council did : he knew what was brought in debate , but cannot condiscend to every thing that my lord spake there . mr. whitlock here interposed , and said , that he mentioned not the particular words , that might come from my lord traquairs own expression ; but the question he desired , was , whether my lord of strafford did not say , the demand of the scotch parliament was a sufficient ground for the war ? to which my lord traquair being interrogated ? he answered , that he should very clearly declare to the best of his memory , what he heard upon that occasion ; but for the present he could not remember particularly , of any such words expressed by my lord of strafford here at whitehall ( for he believes it was there when the council met , when he made the first relation ) but he remembred he was deponed on these before , and if it might stand with their lordships pleasure and form , he would willingly remit himself to his former deposition . mr. whitlock offered to their lordships , that ( for the recollecting of his memory ) my lord traquair might peruse the former deposition . but my lord of strafford opposed it , because their lordships having not yet made use of any thing taken on oath , he desired that rule might be still kept . mr. palmer insisted on it , it being not offered as a proof to be heard , but because it was tender'd to him to vary ( being on his oath ) though but in a syllable , from what he had spoken before ; and mr. glyn added , that this is very ordinary at law. but my lord of portland moved that the house might be adjourned , that the examinations should not be made use of . my lord traquair desired , that he might not be mistaken , for he would express his reasons , and humbly submit it to their lordships , that he was by order of their lordships , examined on oath before , and examined on the same question , and he only submitted this to their lordships , whether or not their lordships would allow him , to remit himself to the depositions in writing ? and if it was not fit , nor consisted with their lordships pleasure , he should go on to the best of his memory , and if he keep not the very words , he should keep the sence . and this he said was , that he might not vary from any thing that was in his written deposition . mr. maynard to induce their lordships thereunto , instanced , that if a man writes a thing in a book , and he after produced as a witness , the witness may have leave to look on his own book , much more when he is examined , and there can be no suspition of fraud in this . whence my lord of strafford inferred , that this gentleman desired my lord traquair should desire that which my lord himself did not desire . the lord traquair then proceeded and said ; all that he remembred in this particular , to the best of his memory , was upon occasion of a debate at york , at the kings majesties last being there ; where it was required , that he should make that same relation before the peers , who were to meet the next day after , that he had made at the council-board here : some question having been made , what should be the ground or occasion of this relation again , since it was conceived , the business was not in the same condition it was , at the time of making his first relation : because , as it was alledged at the time of making this relation , that it was only of demands , and these demands had been represented by the commons of parliament to his majesty , with other demands ; and likewise in parliament they had made these demands pass into an act : it was therefore represented by some , that there was not a necessity of making the same relation he had before ; but of the demands only , and not the case of the business , as it stood before . and upon this , ( wherein he shall not be obliged to words ) but something to this sence ; my lord of strafford expressed , that he conceived , that the unreasonable demands of subjects in parliament , was a ground for the king to put himself into a posture ; or to this sence : and his lordship repeated , and explained it ; that the unreasonable demands of subjects , was a ground for the king , to put himself into a posture of war. being asked , whether it was spoken of demands in parliament ? his lordship answered , it was , that the unreasonable demands of his subjects in parliament &c. for it was on the scotch business they were speaking . being asked , where this was spoken ? he answered , it was spoken before the meeting of the peers , at the council , which was convened , and he believes his majesty was present . being directed to repeat the words again ? his lordship said , the words were , that the unreasonable demands of subjects in parliament ( for it was on the scotch demands ) my lord conceived , might be a ground for the kings majesty , to put himself into a posture of war. being asked , whether these demands of the scots were not in parliament ? he answered , that all the demands made to the kings commissioner , are in parliament , or by the parliament ; and here he said he was forced to make a little digression , if he answered to this , for the parliaments there , use not that way that the parliament doth here : for he being the kings commissioner , propositions , and demands , and articles were made for him which are the preparatory ways of parliaments ; and some commissioners from the gentry and nobility , made motions and demands to him in private , before they were voted in publique . and of them all , he was tyed to make an account . all were made in parliament , or by warrant of parliament , or by some body of the parliament . being asked , whether some of the lords then present , did not declare and express themselves to be of a contrary opinion ? he answered , that truly as he believed the occasion of this came upon this debate , and he believed there were some of the lords of the parliament , by way of debate , of another opinion , as he remembred it . and particularly my lord morton said , he was of another opinion , to the best of his memory . being interrogated , who first spake in council after this relation ? he answered , that he believed in this there might be a mistake , for at that time he had made no relation , but was to make a relation next morning before the peers , and this was only the debate , whether he should make relation or not ? but at that time at york no relation was made before the council , but before the peers next morning . being asked , but after the relation made to the peers , who then spake first ? he answered , that truly he could not tell . being asked , whether he could tell who spake first at whitehal ? he answered , that it is very well known to a great many lords here , that he ( by his majesties command ) made a narrative of the demands made to him in parliament by the subjects of scotland . in which relation ( he hoped my lords memory would serve ) he left the commissioners , who were coming up , by warrant from his majesty , on petition , to give a reason of their demands . this he did , and it was his greatest care to do it faithfully and ingenuously , without burdening of any whom it concerned : and , to burden his memory , who spake first , and who spake last , he could not tell ; but , on debate of the business , something was proposed to the table , and every man declared his opinion ; and , he thinks , they all agreed in one ; but , who spake first , and who last , he knows not . being asked , whether he remembred the words my lord of strafford spake , at the making of that relation to the privy-council ? he answered , that he remembers that ( which he hopes all my lords well remember ) on that relation of his , the kings majesty being then present in person , was gratiously pleased to take notice of that , he ( the deponent ) had there affirmed , that some one ( he thinks his name was cunningham ) was sent from the parliament of scotland , to supplicate his majesty to allow some of their own members to come up to his presence , and present their demands . the king was pleased it should be so ; and when they were all of the same opinion , the king condescended to it ; and , to the best of his remembrance , it was consented to by my lord of strafford and the whole board ; that at their coming up , if they should not give good reasons and satisfaction for their demands , they would be assistant to his majesty to put him in a posture , to reduce them to their due obedience ; but he cannot tye himself to words . being asked , what was meant by a posture ? he answered , a posture of warr he believed , must needs be a capacity and power , to reduce them to obedience . being desired ( upon my lord of straffords motion ) to repeat the words again . he answered , that he made a narrative relation , and a narrative relation only : and the commissioners , whom his majesty was pleased to condescend to their coming up , to give reasons of their demands , that the scotch subjects had made in parliament : this being the state of the question ; and the kings majesty gratiously condescending , that some of their own members should come up , to represent their own demands ; it was put to the question , what should be done ? and this was the conclusion ( to his memory , there being no clerk nor register there , wherein my lord of strafford was no more involved then the rest ) that if these commissioners should not , at their coming up , give good satisfaction touching their demands , the council would be assistant to his majesty , to put him into a posture of warr , to reduce them to their obedience . he will not say , these very words were reported again to my lords at york , but the sence and way of them was . my lord digby did here desire leave of their lordships , to represent something on consideration of that , which was last in question , touching the witnesses helping themselves by their former examinations . he did forbear it before , in regard he saw this honorable lord , for his own particular , did not insist on it ; but , for the future , he thought it very necessary to represent it to their lordships , as a thing not only much concerning the validity of the proofs , but likewise very much conducing to the honour of many of their lordships here ; and , concerning the validity of their proofs , he shall humbly offer this to their lordships . that this noble lord was often pleased to say , that he hoped he should not be tied to words : now , their lordships may be pleased to consider the charges of the present articles are consisting principally of words ; to say , he shall not be tied to words , is as much as to say , he shall not be tied to the question . and this he offered only concerning the validity of the proofs ; but concerning the honor of some noble lords that sit here , he confesses he is very zealous in that when he thinks of it ; that diverse of them have been examined formerly upon oath , and upon oath set down , without great leasure , and recollection of the truth of things : and now , whether ( so many months after , being called again suddenly on oath , to give account of these words ) the best memory may not be subject to variance and discrepancie , and may not forget some prejudice and disadvantage to those noble lords honor , he humbly submits to their lordships . and mr. glyn added , that this noble lord hath prevented him ; my lord of traquair hath not vary'd from his examinations in substance , but if he had , under favour , they must stand upon his examinations ; and , it is legal , and just , and ordinary ; and never a judge in england will deny it ; that if a witness be examined , and varies , his examinations shall be read to his face , and it is no prejudice , for the party is ready to explain himself ; and , he said , he was about the offering it , and now must offer it , according to the trust reposed in him by the house of commons ; that , if it stand with their occasions , the examinations may be read , and under favour they may . to this my lord of strafford answered , that here is a question now stirred , that hath been hitherto denied ; for , he could leave out any examinations taken , and certainly , as he conceives , it was never intended , that these examinations should be made use of . they were preparatory and no other : and ( by this learned gentlemans leave ) whereas he speaks of the manner of proceedings on tryals of ordinary felonies , he ( the defendant ) hath seen some of them ; and , in all particulars , where the witness hath been viva voce , he never heard examinations read. but , mr. glyn averred what he said before ; that if there be examinations taken of a felon at common law , and the witness comes viva voce ; and the kings council takes advantage , they do read the examinations taken . and here the lord steward declared , that it is not denyed to any to recollect himself . my lord traquair thereupon further alledged , that this was the first time he was ever examined upon oath ; and , if he hath been occasion of any scruple , he desired pardon : but , it was long since he was examined , and he could not see his depositions ; and , lest he should have erred in his words , he desired this favour . mr. whitlock further added , that they must affirm this to be the ordinary and constant practice ; and , if their lordships doubt it , it shall be made good : and , he hopes , the commons of england shall not be in worse case , then an ordinary prosecutor . and then offered the deposition of my lord morton ( he being taken ill at that time ) to this point . by which means my lord of strafford observed himself to be debarred , of cross-examining him . and mr. whitlock answered , and so is every prisoner in the like case . yet my lord of strafford desired , he might reserve to himself the benefit of cross-examining him , if he should see cause . but mr. whitlock said , that , under favour , in this case , no prisoner hath benefit of cross-examination , where examinations are read at tryal . and mr. glyn added , that he perceived by my lord of strafford , that he expected notice , what witnesses they were ready to produce , and his lordship knew what witnesses will be necessary for his defence , and should be careful of them : but , mr. glyn said further , that he thought never any prisoner expected to know from the prosecutor , what witnesses would be produced against him . my lord of strafford confest , he might easily mistake , for never did so ignorant a man , in their proceedings , stand at the bar : but , he conceived , that if the other party do examine , it stands with reason they should give him notice of it , else he cannot possibly cross-examine . mr. whitlock thereunto replyed , that their examinations are taken preparatorily , and it is according to course of law ; that , if any witnesses die , or be necessarily absent , their examinations be used at the tryal . yet my lord of strafford said , he takes it , that if these be those they call preparatory examinations , they ought not to be read but by an order of the house . so my lord steward put an end to this matter , saying , that if it can be , the witnesses , by the order of the house , shall be examined viva voce ; if not , upon faith made , the examinations are to be heard . and then they proceeded to read the examinations of the earl of morton , taken ianuary , . by vertue of , and according to a commission under the great seal of england , issued in parliament , and dated ian. . to the . interrogatory , this examinant saith , that he was present at york , the night before the meeting of the great council of the peers of england , then at a debate before his majesty , touching the ground of that war against the scots . . he saith , that at , or in the said debate , he heard the earl of strafford , in his majesties presence , say , that the unreasonable and exorbitant demands made by the scots in their parliament , were a sufficient ground to make a war against them ; and that the king needed not to seek for any other grounds for it , or words to that effect . . that towards the end of the said debate , this examinant told his majesty , that his majesty having given the scots leave , in their parliament , to petition for redress of such things , as they conceived to be grievances , he said , his majesty would not think it a sufficient ground , to make war against them for any demands by them made in parliament , without first hearing the reasons thereof , which reasons were not before that time related at , or in any meeting of the council , whereat this examinant was present ; howbeit the said earl of strafford again said , that there was ground enough for that war. after which his majesty was pleased to say , that this examinant had reason , for what this examinant did then say . whence mr. whitlock observed , that my lord morton went further then was opened ; for though he told his majesty , that that which was treated on in parliament , especially by the kings leave , and before the reason of these demands were declared , was not a sufficient ground of a war ; yet notwithstanding , my lord of strafford , though he heard not these reasons , nor knew whether they were unlawful or no , ( he was not versed in republica aliena ) yet he reiterates and declares his advice again to his majesty , that these demands were a sufficient ground of war. . he saith , that when my lord traquair made relation at the council-table , of the demands made by the scots in their parliament , without rendring any reason of the said demands , as leaving this to the scotch commissioners , who were on their way , coming towards his majesty , by his majesties leave , and allowed to yield their reasons in that behalf : which course of the said earl of traquairs , in leaving the said reasons to the said commissioners , his majesty well approved of , and pleased himself to expect from him a relation onely what the said demands were ; this examinant , on the said occasion , heard the said e. of strafford say to his majesty , after the said demands so related , that the said demands were not matters of religion , but such as did strike at the root of government , and such as he thought were fit for his majesty to punish by force ; or words to such effect . whence mr. whitlock observed , that the words last read , were spoken by my lord of strafford , at that time , when my lord traquair made a relation before the council here , which was a great while before the second relation at york , before the great council of the peers . and , though the king himself , in his clemency and goodness , thought that a sufficient reason , to do no more upon it at that time , having not heard the reasons ; yet my lord of strafford was pleased then to give him this counsel . my lord traquair being interrogated , whether the reasons of the demands were given before , or at the meeting at whitehall ? he answered , that at his first relation , their lordships know very well , the commissioners were not come up ; but , he cannot burthen his memory , that he heard my lord of strafford say such words . mr. glyn observed , that they put it only to this , that the reasons were not , nor could not be related , the commissioners being not come up . and , from these proofes , mr. whitlock conceived it to stand proved , that my lord of strafford laboured to perswade his majesty to an offensive war , to imbroyle both kingdoms in a national quarrel , and the blood one of another , and this several times : and that at whitehall being three quarters of a year before the other , which was at the council at york . for proof of the further prosecution of his design . sir henry vane , treasurer of his majesties houshold , and principal secretary of state , was sworn and interrogated , what advice my lord of strafford gave to his majesty , concerning making of a war with scotland ; or seizing their lordships ? he answered , that he should be very glad to understand the question cleerly , before he makes an answer ; for , to part of it , he is able to say nothing : that is , concerning the ships of scotland , he not hearing of it till now . and , he will be sorry here , to say any thing , that is not true ; for , he conceives , the witnesses were put upon a great strait . the examinations were taken long since ; and , for his part , he hath seen none of them : and he besought their lordships , to take so much care of them , that they may not be subject to cross what was said before ; and , peradventure , bespatter our selves , when we ought to have our memories a little refresht in it . this he said he thought fit to speak before he answers the question ; and , if he be asked such a question as he cannot clearly answer to , he shall do it candidly and ingenuously ; but , to the ships , he can say nothing . being asked , whether about the th day of may , , he heard my lord of strafford perswade the king to an offensive war against the scots ? he answered , saying , that to that question he is able to speak ; and , he is the better able ( which he may declare to their lordships here ) because his majesty hath been pleased , out of the justice and equality he owes to all his servants , to give him leave to do it : to that point then , this he sayes , clearly and plainly , whether it were upon the th day of may , or no , he is not able to say ; but either that day , or shortly after , where diverse of my lords were present , being commanded , after the breach of the parliament , to speak what was fit to be done , and every man to vote in his own turn , and he amongst the rest took his turn ; and he must say , that after mr. secretary windebank had spoken first of it , it came to him : there were then diverse reasons agitated , which do not occurr to his memory ; but this he remembers well , a defensive war was proposed , for it was proposed by himself : thereupon that was not thought fit to be done ; and certainly my lord of strafford was of opinion for an offensive war. this he can say , and this is all he can say to this point . being interrogated , what he could say against my lord of straffords procuring the parliament of ireland , to engage themselves in a supply for a war against scotland ? he answered , that this was new to him ; and , he could say nothing to it in particular , but what in general came to his knowledge ; that so many subsidies were given to the king : and that is all he can say , having not heard of the question till now . mr. whitlock desired to read my lord of northumberland his examination . but , my lord of strafford conceived that not so proper , his examination being reserved . which objection mr. whitlock taking off , by offering to their lordships that for which they desired to reserve him , was another matter , they now desiring his examinations only to the point , of my lord of straffords perswading the king , to an offensive war against the scots . the examination of algernon earl of northumberland , taken th december , . read. to the th interrogatory , he saith ; that the said lord lieutenant did , after the breach of the last parliament , advise his majesty , to go vigorously on in an offensive , and not defensive war against the scots . the lord bishop of london , lord treasurer of england , sworn , and interrogated , what he knew concerning the earl of straffords giving advice to his majesty , to go on in an offensive war against the scots , before , or after the breach of the last parliament ? he answered , that all he remembred of my lord of straffords advice , touching a war , was , that which he gave publickly in council at the council-board ; for , he remembred not any single advice that he gave at all . the advice given by his lordship ( the deponent ) at the council-board , after the relation made by my lord ( the earl of traquair ) to the best of his remembrance was this ; my lord traquair did make a relation before his majesty , and my lords , of what had passed in the parliament of scotland , and of many demands made there ; whereunto they did desire to have his majesties consent and approbation : his majesty was pleased to signifie to those lords , that , among these demands , there were some of them very prejudicial to that crown ; insomuch , that he could by no means give way to and consent to them , with his honor and safety , and thereupon the advice , or opinion , given , was ( and then was given by my lord the earl of strafford , ( as well as others of my lords ) and the demands being of that nature , as they were then informed , and the commissioners , as he remembers , being then come up , or at lest had a licence to come up ; ) it was resolved upon , that , in case they should insist upon those demands , that had been so related , and would not recede nor alter , nor submit otherwise , then his majesty should prepare himself to reduce them by force ; this he takes to be my lord of straffords expression , and the substance of what was there delivered . being asked , whether my lord of strafford advised then an offensive war , or a defensive war ? he answered , that he did not well remember what kind of war , but he thinks it was an offensive war. being asked , whether at the dissolving of the last parliament , my lord of strafford did not advise to an offensive war ? he answered , that he remembers , upon a meeting afterwards , of casting up the charges , and other things , there was a discourse of it , whether it was best to have a war , as only defensive ( the war being then resolved upon ) or to make an offensive war ? that is , to enter into scotland with force : and there were diverse opinions in 't , and he believes my lord did incline to the opinion , for an offensive war. being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) whether he ( my lord of strafford ) delivered any opinion at that time , different from the rest of the lords present ? he answered , that every man there , exprest himself in such sort as he thought fit ; some in one kind , some in another ; but he did not observe any difference as to the main , in the opinion of any man. being asked , about the time , when this was ? he answered , it was at the council-board , at that time , when my lord traquair made his relation , and , as he remembers , it was about december . being asked , whether he delivered his opinion once , or twice ? he answered , the opinion was delivered but once , as he remembers . to the seizing of the scotch ships in ireland , after the pacification , mr. nich. barnewell sworn , and interrogated , what he knew of the stopping of the scotch ships in ireland ? he answered , that sir robert loftus had a place under my lord admiral , and had seized on some scotch ships and boates ; and , that others fled away : and , that sir george ratcliff was angry that he spoke of it in so publick a place , as to give them occasion to run away ; but , the time he doth not remember : and , he thinks , sir robert loftus was vice-admiral of lemster ; but , he cannot take his oath that the warrant was from my lord of strafford ; but , sir robert told him , he had a warrant . and so mr. whitlock said , they would leave it , as to the matter of scotland , and observed the proofes . that when a free parliament was convened there , by the kings authority , and had liberty to treat of their grievances and demands ; and , when these demands , by way of narration , were declared in my lord of straffords hearing , though the reasons of them were not then delivered : yet my lord of strafford gave his advice to the king , that these demands made in parliament were a sufficient ground of a war against them , even after his majesty had declared himself satisfied , and would stay to hear the reasons ; but that would not satisfie my lord of strafford , he himself declared it at several times , and before himself had heard the reasons , that the demands made by the kings free parliament , were a sufficient ground of a war : and if it be so ( mr. whitlock , said he ) he is sure then , parliament or no parliament , no liberty , nor property can subsist with it . my lord of strafford hath declared his intention and designe , to subvert the parliament , and to subvert the government of scotland . that he perswaded the king to an offensive war , and told the king , their demands were not matter of religion , but struck at the root of government , and that it was fit to punish them by force , and on these proofs it is conceived his designe was manifest . after this mr. whitlock proceeded to shew also his design against england , and began with the testimony of my lord primate of ireland . the examination of the right reverend father in god , iames , lord archbishop of armagh , primate of all ireland , taken ian. . to the th interrogatory he saith , that in or about april last past , in discourse betwixt the earl of strafford , lord-lieutenant of ireland , and this examinant at dublin in ireland , touching the levies of money upon the subjects by the king , he did hear the said earl of strafford declare , that he did agree with those in england , who thought , that ( in case of imminent necessity ) the king might make use of his prerogative , to levy what he needed , save that , as his lordship then further said , in his opinion ) his majesty was first to try his parliament , and if that supplyed him not , then he might make use of his prerogative , as he pleased himself ; or words to that effect . the lord conway being asked what words my lord of strafford used , when the said lord conway demanded , how the army should be paid , in case the parliament gave not supply ? his lordship answered , that he had been formerly examined upon this thing , and then gave his answer , and besought their lordships to give him leave to look on what he said , that he might not vary . and after some debate thereupon , having the copy of his examination shewed him . he answered to the said question , that it was only for one word , that he desired to look into the paper , and it was , whether in the later end he did not say ( or words to that effect ) these words about which he is examined , did pass between my lord of strafford and him in private discourse , when ( he believes ) neither of them thought they should have been called to an account for them ; for they were then thinking of raising of horse , and seeing but small sums of money , he asked my lord how these forces should be paid ? his lordship answered , he made no doubt , but that the parliament would give assistance to the king by subsidies ; and if they did that , it would sufficiently pay the army , or some such words . but said he ( my lord conway ) what if the parliament shall not supply the king , or not give these subsidies ? then my lord of strafford said , or words to that effect , that the king had need , and if the parliment would not supply the king in those things that were just and lawful to be supplyed ; and if they would be so wilful , as not to supply him ; then the king was justified before god and man , if he did help himself in the goods of the subjects ( or to this effect ) tho it were against their wills. being directed to repeat the words again ( on my lord of strafford's motion . ) his lordship answered , that in his examination he said words to this effect , and so he doth now , yet doth not depose absolutely , that these very words were spoken , but to his understanding , and as he then conceived them , they were to this purpose ; when he asked my lord of strafford , how these troops then raised should be paid ? my lord of strafford said , he made no doubt but the parliament would supply the king , and give him subsidies . and saying again . what if the parliament would not give him that assistance ? my lord of strafford said , the cause was very just and lawful , and if the parliament would not supply him , then he was justified before god and man , if he sought means to help himself , though it were against their wills. sir henry vane being interrogated , whether he did not hear my lord of strafford ( when consideration was had of a parliament , before the last parliament ) promise his majesty , in case the parliament did not succeed , he would be ready to serve him in any other way ? he answered , that he must begin , as the lord that spake last ( since they have no help of their examinations ) which is , that the words were such , or to such an effect , for otherwise , they that be witnesses have a very hard task to play , for they lye open to be excepted against , and peradventure when they speak truly , may be intangled , if their memory help them not out . but to the question proposed , he says this , that upon the th of december , as he takes it , he did hear my lord of strafford speak words to that effect , as they are now asked , to his best remembrance : and truly ( he thinks ) really he did viz. that truly if the parliament should not succeed , his lordship would be rea dy to assist his majesty any other way , or words to this effect . mr. whitlock summed up the evidence , and said , there was an intent to call a parliament , to try if they would give the king a supply , and being engaged in a war against the scots , my lord of strafford before the parliament came , doubted not but subsidies would be given , and while the parliament was sitting , that was the number demanded by a message from the king. this designe did not take other effect than himself expected , and it seems desired ; for when the parliament was set , and frequently urged by messages from his majesty , to give that very number of subsidies , and that for release of ship-money only , whereas by the old and right course of parliaments , the grievances are in the first place to be considered of , and to be humbly presented to his majesty ; and upon redress of those grievances , the people are to shew their thankfulness to his majesty , for his grace and goodness , in redressing of them , by their free gift of subsidies . my lord of strafford changes this course , and perswades his majesty to put the subsidies in the first place , and to fall at first on consideration of supply , and that so great a proportion , and while the parliament was in debate of this , and before they had resolved whether they would give supply or no , by my lord of strafford's advice , the parliament was dissolved ; his lordship confesses in his answer , he did give his vote for dissolving of the parliament , and they shall make it appear in time , that he did procure it . after the parliament was dissolved , my lord of strafford goes on , endeavouring all that lay in his power , to incense a gracious sovereign against his loving subjects , to slander the people to the king , and for ever to break off all parliaments , and take away the liberty and property of the subject ; and by what course ? by force , by bringing in an army amongst us . that was his advice , tho ( blessed be god ) his majesty was pleased to reject it . . to prove what was said by the creatures and friends of my lord of strafford . sir ro. king being interrogated , what words he heard from sir george ratcliffe to this purpose , that the king had an army , and money in his purse , and if his subjects in england should not supply him , what use he might make of his army for supply , and the times ? he answered , that he demanded of sir george ratcliffe , how the king would do for money to maintain the scotch war ? sir george ratcliffe said , the king could not want money , his majesty had an army of men , and he had l. in his purse , and a sword by his side , and if he would want money , who could pity him ? or words to this purpose . to which he the deponent objected , how can this course be taken , when the scotch are on foot unpacified ? sir george answered , they can make peace with the scotch when they please ; and being riding together to the — — he the deponent said , that my lord lieutenant , and the said sir george had least reason of all his majesties subjects to desire a war. sir george answered , it is true , for his part he would give l. to be quit of it , but we are now engaged , and we cannot but go on ; and then he ( the deponent ) asking , what he would do for money ? sir george answered , the king could not want money , he had an army , &c. as before is deposed . being asked what was the reason of making this demand , and whether he did conceive a forcible way was intended ? he answered , he did understand that by the words , that if they would not supply him , the king was ready to supply himself . lord ranalaugh being interrogated , what he heard sir george ratcliffe speak , concerning the kings levying money by force , or to that purpose ? he answered , that the words he is to inform their lordships of , and on which he was formerly examined , proceeded from sir george ratcliffe , not to him privately and only , but they were spoken in a council of war , when they were assembled together upon that service . my lord-lieutenant arrived in ireland in march was months , and after his lordship had spent some days in ireland , ( within which time he ( the deponent ) with others , were commanded , to attend at a council of war ) departed that kingdom , leaving direction behind him , how this affair should be proceeded in , in his lordships absence ; and as he takes it , in the beginning of april , my lord departed out of ireland ; and not long after , they being assembled in a council of war , there was occasion to speak of all preparations that should be , for the raising of an army of foot , and provision for transportation of horse , which was the army of ireland at that time . in these discourses they found there was a great deal of treasure to be consumed , and much money required , to supply the occasion : it was computed ( and he thinks , sir george ratcliffe had a privy hand in the computing of it ) how much charge would maintain the army for a year ? and to the best of his remembrance , it was computed at l. and odd , which gave them occasion ( considering the army to be transported out of ireland , was but in proportion ⅓ of what was prepared in england ) to speak of the charge that must be raised in england , according to that proportion : and they finding it to amount to so great a sum , it fell into question , how the king should be supplyed with money , for so great expence of treasure , if he were not supplyed by parliament ? sir george ratcliffe answered , the king hath his sword by his side , and men at command , and if he want money , let no man pity him . it was thereupon replyed , and as ( he the deponent takes it , by himself ) how can money be raised , when the scotch army is on foot , and so strong ? sir george answered , we can make peace with the scots when we list , but that is the worst of evils ; and this is in substance as much as the deponent can remember . whence mr. whitlock observed , that their lordships heard what passed from sir george ratcliffe in words and counsels , and that their lordships knew the nearness and relation between sir george ratcliffe , and my lord of strafford , and this was after direction was left for raising the army ; and when my lord of strafford was come away himself , it seems he had left his directions with sir george ratcliffe , as it will appear by my lords own words concurring with these . and mr. maynard desired their lordships to take notice of these words , ( we can make peace with the scots when we will ) it was not sir george ratcliffe alone . sir tho. barrington being sworn and interrogated , what words passed from sir george wentworth to him , about englands being sick of peace , &c , at what time it was , and on what occasion ? he answered , that immediately after the last parliament , sir george wentworth had accidentally a discourse with him , being a gentleman , with whom , he ( the deponent ) never had intercourse or interlocution before that time . on some discourse betwixt them concerning the former parliament , in the close of his discourse , he was pleased to express himself thus . this commonwealth is sick of peace , and will not be well till it be conquered again . the application of these words , he ( the deponent ) said , he must leave to their lordships better judgements , he not being able to decide it : and to the occasion , according to the truth which shall be ever present with him , he ( the deponent ) said he would deliver it cleerly . they had some occasion to discourse of the former parliament , and speaking now on his oath , he must express that , which otherwise he should not , being the words of a private discourse , which in the course of his life he hath ever avoided , especially in the case of a gentleman . they were in discourse of the former parliament , and the carriage of that ; and sir george wentworth was of one opinion , and he ( the deponent ) of another . sir george expressed himself in this sence , that he conceived the parliament had no intention to give the king money , he ( the deponent ) said , that if the kings majesty had pleased , they had sate awhile together ; they had supplied him , and on the close , that expression fell from him , that which he ( the deponent ) said , he shall not not need to repeat . sir robert king being interrogated , what sense and apprehension was in my lord ranalaugh , on the words that fell from sir george ratcliffe at the council-board ? he answered , that my lord ranalaugh did conceive , there was an intention to take money forcibly in england , and was much troubled with the words , and cast out some such speeches ; that we shall turn our swords on them from whom we are descended , and having cut their throats , make way for our own safety , or some such words . lord ranalaugh being interrogated , what his sense was of these words , spoken by sir george ratcliffe ? he answered , that the expression of these words , and some other words , that fell from my lord-lieutenant to himself , before his lordships departure out of ireland , made him doubt that there might be some danger intended , by the transportation of the army ; and it was not his sense alone , for upon discourse betwixt others that were of the council and himself , the like apprehensions were amongst them , as between my lord president of munster and him ; and also between sir adam loftus and him : those that durst be free one to another , did express their fears and apprehensions about it . being asked , what the words were my lord of strafford spake to him , on which the apprehensions were grounded ? he answered , that it was thus : my lord of strafford at his last being in ireland , was pleased to say to him , my lord , will you buy any land ? i will sell you all the land i have in ireland . to which , he the lord ranalaugh answered , that he is not able to buy land , being in debt , and god forbid his lordship should sell his land in ireland ; truly says he , my lord , we are like to have a troublesome world , and i am willing to part with it . to which , the lord ranalaugh replyed , it will be hard then with us , that have no estates but in ireland . no my lord ( says my lord of strafford ) i do not mean it so , for i believe you will be quieter here , than they will be in england : but he doth not think that ever he spake these last words to sir robert king in his life . being asked , how he expressed his sense of those words to sir robert king ? he answered , that the first discourse was from sir george ratcliffe ; the latter was from my lord to himself . he apprehended there was some design ( as he feared ) in england , and he had this reason for it too . for in that condition they were then in , they of the council of warr saw no possibility to make this army in a readiness to invade scotland within the time limited ; for by directions of my lord of strafford , left with them , they were to be ready at the provincial rendezvous , by the th of may , and that by subsequent directions , was forborn till th iune : then they all met , to march to the general rendezvous ; the arms , ammunition , and preparations could not be ready so soon , nor were they in readiness , till the end of sept. following ; so that on the whole matter , those amongst them that might be free , their consultations all agreed , that it might tend to the purposes here declared . and from the time observed by my lord ranalaugh , for the raising of the army in ireland , mr. whitlock observed , that it could not be intended for scotland , for no army was raised in scotland , till some months after . to prove the words spoken by the lord of strafford himself , to shew his designe to bring the army to england . sir tho. german comptroller of his majesties houshold , being interrogated , whether he heard not the earl of strafford tell the king , that the parliament had denyed to supply him , and had sorsaken him , or words to that effect ? he answered , that he should humbly presume to crave one thing of their lordships , and it was briefly this , there is nothing that he can be interrogated upon in this cause , but it must fall within the cognizance and knowledge of many of my lords here present , who must needs remember all that he hath to say , as well , or perhaps better than he can himself ; his humble desire therefore to their lordships is , that if through distance of time , and the weakness of his memory , there be any thing that may be better remembred by some of their lordships , than is at this time by himself , it may not be imputed to him , as from a desire of concealing any part of the truth , but a failor in memory ; and that their lordships will believe of him , that in this great assembly , he shall be very unwilling to speak any thing , but , that that shall perfectly occurr to his remembrance , and that request granted , he shall humbly answer to every thing . and to the question he remembers very well , that he was interrogated upon the same terms heretofore , that he is now . his answer was then , as he takes it , in these words ; that he remembred that he heard my lord of strafford say something of the parliaments deserting , or forsaking the king , or something to that effect or purpose ; but he did not remember then , what inference my lord made upon it , nor what he did conclude thereupon ; neither can he now call himself to further remembrance on that point , than he then deposed . the earl of bristol sworn and interrogated , whether he heard any words spoken by my lord of strafford , that in this great distress of king and kingdom , the parliament had refused to supply the king in the ordinary and usual way , and that therefore the king might provide for the kingdom , by such ways as he thought fit , and was not to suffer himself to be mastered by the frowardness and undutifulness of his people , or to that effect ? he answered , that it is very true , that about months since , by meer accident , he had a private discourse with my lord of strafford , and some months after had discourse with a peer of this house , my lord conway by name , meerly to let him know the difference that was between some tenants of my lord of straffords and himself ( the earl of bristol ) what use hath been made of it , he doth not know ; but upon this , he doth conceive he comes to be interrogated : it is almost twelvemonths agoe , since this discourse did happen , yet afterwards he was called , now a month or six weeks since , and was examined on oath on several interrogatories ; after he had well recollected himself , he did set down for his memory , what he could think of , and out of those notes and papers , he did then make his answer : now his examination being upon oath , he shall be very loath to depose particularly to words , but to the effect of what passed : and therefore he shall crave leave , not out of his examinations , but out of the words he then set down , to read the effect of what he then spake ; for if a man be deprived of words , and tell not the sense and coherence , and subsequents , he shall not do himself right , but may do a great deal of wrong to the party accused : and therefore , though it be somewhat the longer , he shall tell the circumstances . it is true , that after the disso lution of the last parliament , he had discourse accidentally with the earl of strafford , but being many months since , he cannot precisely depose unto the words that then passed ; but he remembers , that speaking then together of the great distractions of those times ( videlicet ) touching the present things , that were then at lambeth ( for it was just about that time of the mutiny of some soldiers against their officers ) of the present great danger apprehended by the ensuing war ( as was feared ) of scotland , and of the said parliament being broken , without supplying the king ; he ( the earl of bristol ) did then , in his discourse , chiefly attribute these disorders to the breach of the parliament ; and , speaking what might be the best way for help in these distressed times , he then conceived and said , that he thought the best way to prevent any desperate undertakings , would be , to summon a new parliament , that might quiet the times for the present . the expectation thereof might quiet the distempers at that time . and , as for the war of scotland , he did much fear the success of it , unless the king should be assisted both with the purse and affections of his people . and he alleadging to my lord of strafford many reasons for it , conceiving it was not likely , that our nation , lying under great grievances , should go willingly and chearfully to a war , labouring under the same grievances with themselves . my lord of strafford ( he must speak it , and confess it very ingenuously ) seemed no way to dislike the discourse ; but said , he did not conceive it to be counsellable at that time ; neither did the present dangers of the kingdom ( which were not now imaginary , but real and pressing ) admit of so slow and uncertain a remedy , as a parliament was ; for that the parliament had , in the great distress of the king and kingdom , refused now to supply the king , by the ordinary and usual way of subsidies : and therefore the king must provide for the safety of his kingdom , by such wayes as he should think fit in his wisdom . and he ( the earl of bristol ) doth remember , that the said earl of strafford , at the same time , did use the sentence , salus reipublicae suprema lex : and further ( not to bind himself to words , but to the sense ) at the same time , the earl of strafford used these words , or words to this effect . that the king was not to suffer himself to be mastered by the frowardness and undutifulness of his people , or rather ( as he conceives ) by the disaffection and stubborness of some particular men . and this he said from his former notes , which he thought fit rather to use , than to trust his memory . being asked , whether by particular men , he meant not particular members of the parliament ? his lordship answered ; by his troth he conceives so , for he was speaking of the parliament . edward lord newburgh being sworn , and interrogated , whether he did not hear my lord of strafford speak these words to his majesty , that the parliament , in denying the king , had given him advantage to supply himself by other wayes ? his lordship answered , that those very words he never heard , nor words to that effect . but , he hath answered , in his deposition , what he hath heard ; and he shall desire to speak a little before he repeats it ; and this it is . when he was examined , he did then speak that , which occurred to his memory ; but , since the agitation of this business , something else hath come into his thoughts ; and , if he shall speak that which his conscience now tells him , he shall desire my lords that then examined him , and the gentlemen , not to misinterpret him , if he shall add something to what he formerly delivered . he cannot say , whether ( when he heard these words ) the king was by or no , for he doth not remember it ; but , he very well remembers , that after the breach of the last parliament , he heard , at the gallery , or council-table , but he rather believes now at council-table , some words to this effect ; that , seeing the parliament had not supplied the king , his majesty might take other courses , for defence of the kingdom : but , though he cannot possibly swear , my lord lieutenant spake these words ; yet , he verily believes he heard him speak something to this purpose : and , this is all he can testifie . henry earl of holland sworn , and interrogated , whether he did not hear my lord of strafford say to his majesty , that the parliament , in denying the king , had given him advantage to supply himself , by other wayes , or words to that effect ? his lordship answered , that he needs not trouble their lordships with circumstances , or long discourses ; but , these words , to the best of his remembrance , according to his oath , he conceives were said to the king , upon the dissolving of the parliament , at the council-table ; that the parliament , in denying to supply the king , had given him advantage to supply himself by other wayes . but , he will not tye himself so particularly to the words , but , as at the time when he was examined before the gentlemen of the committee , he added , or words to this effect . being asked , by whom they were spoken ? his lordship answered , by my lord of strafford . mr. whitlock then proceeded to the latter words of the d article , which shew , in full and plain termes , what my lord of straffords design was , and what he would have laboured , and endeavoured his majesty to entertain . the words of the charge were read. and , to prove them , the examination of algernon earl of northumberland was first read , taken the th decemb. . to the th interrogatory he saith , that the earl of strafford said , that in case of necessity , and for the defence and safety of the kingdom , if the people do refuse to supply the king , the king is absolved from rules of government : and , that every thing is to be done for the preservation of the king and his people ; and , that his majesty was acquitted before god and man ; and he saith , that the said words were spoken at the committee for scotch affairs , in the presence of his majesty ; and , for the time of speaking these words , he doth not perfectly remember . he saith , that these were the discourses mentioned in his answer to the third interrogatory , which made him believe what he hath answered to the said third interrogatory . their lordships calling to have the third interrogatory read , it was read. to the third and fourth , he saith , that the forces which were to come out of ireland , were to land in the west part of scotland ; but he doth not know , nor hath heard ( to his remembrance ) that these forces , or any other , were to be imployed in this kingdom , to compel , or awe the subjects of this realm , to yield to such taxes and charges , as should be imposed on them by his majesty . he saith , that he hath heard my lord lieutenant make some discourses to the king , whereby he believes , that in case the king were not supplied by parliament , that some course was intended to raise moneys by extraordinary wayes . he saith , that the said lord lieutenant did declare , in his majesties presence , that the design was to land the irish army in the west parts of scotland . sir henry vane being interrogated , what words he heard my lord of strafford speak to the king , before the parliament , or after the dissolution of it , tending to this ; that the king had tried the affections of his people , and was loose and absolved from all rules of government : and on what occasion ? he answered , that to the general question , of what was spoken before , or after the sitting of the parliament , he doth not remember : and there are no particular words asked him . but , to these words , which have been read , he shall , as near as he can , ingenuously deliver , what he did formerly depose ; ever reserving to himself words to the same effect . that he considers very well where he is , and the presence before whom he speaks ; that he hath never , in the whole course of his life loved to tell an untruth , much less in this honourable assembly . that he shall , as near as he can , in this case , tell their lordships plainly and truely the matter . it is true ( as my lord admiral hath declared to their lordships ) that these words he is to testifie , were spoken at the committee of eight for the scotch affairs : for the time , he shall crave pardon , if he cannot particularly speak to it : but , thus far he shall say , it was clearly after the dissolution of the last parliament ; it is true , and if he do not very much mistake , it was when the debate , whether a defensive or an offensive war , was controverted ; and , to the best that he can remember , and clearly as he conceives , there were words spoken , either these he shall now relate , or to the same effect , by my lord of strafford , who is now at the bar. the occasion being , whether an offensive or defensive war ? and arguments were controverted in it . my lord of strafford did say , in a discourse ( for he must be ingenuous , he must say all he hath deposed , or is required ) your majesty having tryed all wayes , and being refused ; and , in case of this extream necessity , and for the safety of the kingdom , you are acquitted before god and men : you have an army in ireland , which you may imploy here to reduce this kingdom , or some words to this effect : and , sir henry vane added , that he desires to speak clearly to it ; it is true , my lord of strafford said these words , you may . but , by that , he ( the examinant ) cannot say it was intended , but that the words were spoken ; and , if it were the last hour he is to speak , it is the truth to his best remembrance . being asked ( on the several motions of my lord of clare , and my lord savil ) whether , by this kingdom , he meant the kingdom of england , or scotland ? and , whether it was meant , that he might imploy the army in england , or in ireland , because he said , the army might be there imployed ? he answered , that he shall , as near as he can : and , because he would have-truth appear , he shall desire , that if in this case , any word fall , which may be uncouth in the sence , they would resort to his examinations , for there it remains under his hand and oath . but , to his best remembrance , he thinks , neither then , nor there were used ; but , your majesty hath an army in ireland , you may imploy to reduce this kingdom : but , far be it from him ( the examinant ) to interpret them . he tells their lordships the words , and no other . being directed by the lord steward , to repeat what he had spoken . he answered , that he shall plainly and clearly do it ; these words were spoken ( as my lord of northumberland hath testified ) at the committee of eight , for the scotch affairs : it was an occasion of a debate , whether an offensive , or a defensive war with the kingdom of scotland ? that , on some debate then , some being of opinion for a defensive , some for an offensive war ; he did say the words related , as he conceives . that in a discourse , the earl of strafford said these words , or words to this effect ; your majesty having tryed all wayes , and refused ; in this case of extream necessity , and for the safety of your kingdom and people , you are loose and absolved from all rules of government ; you are acquitted before god and men ; you have an army in ireland ; you may imploy it to reduce this kingdom . being asked , how long this was after the parliament was dissolved ? he answered , he cannot tell the time ; but , it was suddenly after , or within few dayes after the dissolution of the parliament . being asked ( on my lord of clares motion ) whether these words , you have an army in ireland ; did immediately follow these words , you are absolved , &c. he answered , that , to his best remembrance , it did interpose ; and , my lord of strafford did speak it once or twice . and , to his best remembrance , at first it was agitated , to press the offensive war ; for , there were divers reasons given , as the kingdom stood then , that there should be no offensive war ; and , he must speak clearly , and plainly , he ( the examinant ) did move for a defensive war : for , the subjects of england , how they stood affected to this war , they knew ; and besides a breach of a parliament , he thought it would but induce an ill effect . on these controversions the words were spoken . here mr. whitlock observed , that these words were spoken in england , on this occasion , of the kings trying his people , &c. which cannot be intended any other place but england , where the parliament was broken , and where the king had tried his people . being asked ( on the motion of the earl of southampton ) whether he sayes positively , my lord of strafford did say these words , or words to that effect , or whether to his best remembrance ? he answered , that he speaks positively , either those words , or words to that effect . the earl of clare desiring further satisfaction , to the question formerly proposed on this motion , whether he meant by this kingdom , the kingdom of england , or the kingdom of scotland ? the lord steward put his lordship in mind , that sir henry vane testifies to the words , not to the interpretation . and , mr. maynard said , the question is put , whether this kingdom , be this kingdom ? and , so mr. whitlock said , they should conclude their evidence , conceiving the last words spoken , to be very fully proved ; and , by connexion with those other words proved before , he thinks it is very clear and manifest , that my lord of strafford had a strong design and endeavour , to subvert and change the fundamental laws and government of england , and to bring in an army upon us , to force this kingdom to submit to an arbitrary power . that he shall not trouble their lordships with repitition of words , nor with the application of them , for indeed they be above application ; and , to aggravate them , were to allay them ; they have in themselves more bitterness and horror , then he is able to express : and so he left them to their lordships consideration and application , expecting my lord of straffords answer to them : only he desired their lordships , in one point , to hear what mr. treasurer can say further , concerning the breach of the last parliament , and what words and messages he heard of , during the sitting of that parliament , procured by my lord of strafford ; unless their lordships will reserve that , till the rest of the witnesses come to morrow morning , and then they shall be ready to produce all relating to that point together . whereupon liberty was granted for the reserving of them accordingly . my lord of strafford did hereupon crave of their lordships leave , to recollect his notes , being ( as he said ) a little distracted , how to give answer to these things ; for , diverse articles are mingled together , which will make his answer not so clear as otherwise he had hoped to have made it , but trusts he shall do it still . he desires leave to answer article by article : and , how much horror soever this gentleman is pleased to say , there is in these words , he trusts , before he goes out of the room , to make it appear , that though there may be error of judgment , yet nothing that may give offence , when the antecedents and consequents are brought together : and , that he shall give such an account , that ( whether or no their lordships will clear him , as to the charge of an indiscreet man , he knows not ) but , as for treason to the king , and his people , he shall give clear satisfaction , that no such thing was spoken or intended . his lordship desired , he might be favoured with the sight of my lord of northumberlands examinations . but this , mr glyn opposed , and said , his lordship being to answer to matter of fact , let him first say how it stands , and then prove it . to which my lord of strafford answered , that , in truth , they make much more of it then he did ; for , he trusts , by the blessing of almighty god , to give the answer of an honest man to all objections , he will not say of a discreet man ; and , once for all , he humbly besought their lordships ( and so he knows in their wisdom and judgment they will ) to look what is proved , and not to what is enforced on those proofs from these gentlemen : for words pass , and may be easily mistaken , but their lordships having regard only to what is deposed , and that they were to guide themselves by that . after some respit , my lord of strafford began to make his defence as followeth . that it will be very hard for him to know , in what order to answer all the matters objected against him ; but , the best course he can take for his own direction ( and he trusts it shall not be displeasing to their lordships ) will be , to go over the articles as they lie in order , and under every article to give his own proof , and to repeat all the proofs prest against him for that article . the other day , an end was made of the th article , but then likewise the th was entred into ; so , the middle part of that charge is answered already , touching words by him spoken at his last being in ireland ; and , to that he shall not need farther to answer . but , here is in it , that he did labour to perswade , incite , and provoke to an offensive war against the said subjects of the scotch nation ; and , to have been , by his counsels , actions , and endeavors , a principal incendiary . to prove this , they have offered first my lord traquairs depositions ; and , he craved leave to represent to their lordships , how he conceived his testimony was delivered ( viz. ) that upon a relation of his ( the lord traquair ) made at the council-board , he gave his opinion as other their lordships did ; and , that it was condescended to by the council-board , that if the comissioners of scotland gave not satisfaction , that then the king might put himself in a posture of war ; so that he gave only an opinion as others did . and that is proved ( as he conceives ) by my lord traquair ; who , among other parts of his testimony recited , sayes ; that there was no difference in the main amongst the votes : so that by both the testimonies , it plainly appears , that his opinion was no other then the opinion of the rest ; and , certainly , as that opinion can never be charged on any of the rest of the lords , in any kind whatsoever ; so he trusts it shall never be charged upon him : for , he thinks , he is in a great safety and security , when he hath the concurrence of so many wiser persons then himself , in the opinion he then deliver'd , and that is , for so much as was spoken at the council-board ; and if it were needful ( as he conceives it is not ) to examine the persons that were there , it should appear he delivered no vote at all at that time , but the vote of the board : but , it is clear in their own proofs , and their lordships will ( he hopes ) justifie him in their judgments , when it comes to sentence . the next thing is the deposition of my lord morton , concerning something spoken at york , at a council there called ; he met before the assembly of the great council of the peers , where , he conceives , and , as he remembers , he ( the earl of strafford ) spake something to this sence ; that the unreasonable demands of subjects in parliament , was a ground for the king to put himself into a posture of war. when this had been resolved by the council of england , he conceives it no great crime for him to say so : for , upon the question put on those demands , it was said , that it was fit for the king , to put himself into a posture of war , and into a condition to reduce them by force , if they could not be brought by fair means , to do their allegiance and duty to the king. there is something more , that my lord morton sayes ; that he ( the earl of strafford ) should say , it was a sufficient cause , without hearing their reasons , to declare a war. this he ( my lord of strafford ) conceives under favour , is but a single testimony ; and my lord morton gives himself the answer ; for he sayes the reasons were not related when he was present , and therefore , in that my lord of strafford conceives there is little matter . my lord traquair sayes one thing more , and that is , that the reasons were left to be alledged by the scotch commissioners : it is true , they were so : and my lord morton sayes , that he ( the defendant ) should say , it was not matter of religion that was the business , but they struck at the root of government , and were to be punished by force . he further adds by way of defence , that if he thought they struck at the root of government , he thinks every man will say , he had reason to say , it was fit to reduce them by force . but he said , he should speak further of these things anon , when he should represent , what words are in respect of deeds , and what difference there is between what a man sayes and does , in case of treason . but under favour , these two last are no part of his charge , though he answers them , for he is not charged with speaking any thing to the king at york , the night before the great council , but only with speaking at the council-board on my lord traquair's relation ; and this he conceives is all they bring against him , to convince him of the th article , saving only the testimony of my lord of northumberland , and of mr. treasurers ; and mr. treasurer says , that it being agitated , whether a defensive or an offensive war were to be undertaken ? he was for a defensive , and my lord of strafford for an offensive war. he ( the deponent ) cannot conceive , how this can conduce to make a treason ; if the war was resolved on , the debate , whether an offensive or defensive , shall not be treasonable : admit it to be as mr. treasurer sayes , mr. treasurer alledged his reason , and he ( the earl of strafford ) alledged his , and god forbid it should be treason in one , or any other , they both doing their duties , and delivering their consciences according to their oaths ; it was resolved as fit to reduce them , and whether by an offensive or defensive war , being a free council , they were bound to deliver judgements to a master , that was so wise as to know what was best for his service , and so to dispose as he should think fit . my lord of northumberland sayes , that he ( the earl of strafford ) advised to go on vigorously in an offensive war : admit he did say so , it is not treason , it was a free debate ; many reasons were given , and for him to give his reasons one way , was as free from crime or offence , as for them to give their reasons another way . they say that ( as a chief incendiary of the troubles between his majesty and the scotch ) he seized divers scotch ships when he was in ireland , and for this they have only mr. barnwels testimony ; and all he says , is , that sir robert loftus told him , he had a warrant to seize the ships , and they did seize them accordingly , but by whose warrant he doth not know . but if your lordships will know by whose warrant it was , he shall give the best account he can , and offer some proofs . sir robert loftus was the vice-admiral of the province of lemster , himself was vice-admiral of the province of munster ; and about that time the lord admiral sent direction and command to the vice-admiral of lemster and munster , to seize all the scotch ships then in those ports ; so that what was done , was done by the authority of my lord admiral ; and if their lordships asked mr. slingsby , he will say , that about that time there came these commands , and by virtue thereof these ships were stayed . mr. slingsby being interrogated , whether about that time my lord admiral sent warrants to the vice-admirals , to seize the scotch ships in their several ports ? he answered , that he received the letters , just as my lord was going into england , and dispersed them to the vice-admirals , he executing that for munster as deputy to my lord , and the ships were stayed after my lords going into england , and not before . whence my lord of strafford concluded , that it appeared , that he hath not been an extraordinary stirrer of difference between the king and the subject , he never desiring any thing but peace and quietness , and that all things might be ended ( as he trusts they shall ) with good understanding and perpetuity of affection amongst our selves , and with them . and there his lordship left the th article , hoping he had fully and clearly satisfied their lordships , as to any crime in it , but whether his judgement did mislead him in an opinion , he will not dispute , but will confess willingly , that no man is more ready to mistake than himself . his lordship proceeds to the article , which his lordship read . this he said , he perceives is a particular they have much insisted on , but have not ( as he conceives ) offered any substantial proof for what they alledge . the first proof of the article , was my lord primates examination , wherein he sayes , that in a discourse betwixt them concerning the levying of money on the subjects , in case of imminent necessity ; his opinion was , the king might use his prerogative as he pleases , but first it was best to try his parliament . this is the only testimony in this particular ; being singularis testis , he knows it will weigh with their lordships accordingly ; and then it is no otherwise , but by way of discourse and argument ; and how far that shall be layed to a mans charge , he must submit , in regard of the reasons subsequent in the next article , so that he will reserve himself to this point , till he comes thither . but the words fairly and cleerly understood , abide a sence no way of danger to him that speaks them ; for they are , that the king may use his prerogative as he pleases , and the kings pleasure is always just , and will not use his prerogative , but justly and fairly , and for a man to think otherwise , were a higher offence . besides , many things are lawful , which if they were done to the uttermost of the power , that his prerogative , and the law of the land gives him , might be prejudicial to his subjects ; which notwithstanding , he in his goodness and discharge of the trust , god almighty hath put into him , never hath , nor will exercise , but suffer them to be imployed for the subjects advantage , according to the present occasion : and therefore to say he may use his prerogative as he pleases , might be without prejudice to the subject , and very lawful . but it is a greater offence by much , to think that the king will use his prerogative otherwise , then as befits a christian and pious king. and therefore he hopes these words shall not be laid to his charge , as a signal crime , and of so high , deadly , and capital a nature as treason . the next proof offered , is my lord conway , and he sayes , on some discourse ( which being private between friend and friend , neither of them thought they should come here to give an account of ) my lord conway asked him where the means should be for the supply of the kings army ? he told him , in parliament , and doubted not but the parliament would supply his majesty , so far he was from thinking there should be that misfortune , as the breach of that parliament , but quite contrary . and for the words , that if the king should be denyed in just and lawful things , he might justifie before god and men , the seeking means to help himselfe , though it were against their will. he must needs say , that to help a mans self is a very natural motion , for commonly a mans self is the last creature that leaves him , and that which is natural to every man , is natural to the king , who is accountable , not only for himself , but also for all his people . the next is mr. treasurer : and he says , that the th of december was twelvemonths , to the best of his remembrance , upon a proposition of a parliament to the king , he ( the earl of strafford ) should say , that if the parliament should not succeed , he would be ready to assist his majesty any other way . he sees not where the heynousness of the words lies , nor where the venom is that should endanger him , as to his life and honor ; and if he said he would assist his majesty any other way , if it were needful , or any way conducing to his purpose , he is verily perswaded , mr. treasurer himself said as much , but that is not material , for he conceives it not blameble in either of them to have said so much ; therefore he laies it not on him as a recrimination . for the question was , a parliament or no parliament ; a parliament was the desire of every man to settle the common-wealth by , that they might stare super vias antiquas . and when they were moving his majesty for a parliament , for him to say , he would help any other way , doth always presuppose what must be presupposed , that it must be in all lawful ways ; the king cannot command unlawful ways ; and he hath that opinion of his majesty , and of his truth and faithfulness , that he will not command him any wayes , but lawful wayes , he having not carried himself in his masters service so , as that he can have an opinion of him , that he will do any thing , but what is honourable and just , and therefore he hopes it is spoken without offence , being fairly and rightly understood , that is , of lawful ways , the ways the king could command , and the wayes himself could serve him in , being no other . and this is all they bring to prove that part of the article , that concerns his procuring of his majesty to break the parliament , and by force and power to raise money on the subjects ; and this is all he sayes , and all they charge out of that article . this he must add , that when he sayes he will serve the king in any other ways ; in all debates whensoever he expressed himself to that purpose , he did ever in the conclusion end with this , that there was no safe nor sure expedient , to settle a right understanding between the king and his people , and to make both happy , but parliaments ; as shall appear clearly and plainly by that time he hath given his proofs , and so it will appear , he meant only lawful ways . the next particular wherewith he is charged , is to procure the parliament of the kingdom of ireland , to declare their assistance in a war against the scots . for that if their lordships please to give him leave , he thinks the thing it self will best shew it self , and therefore he desired the remonstrance of the two houses of parliament in ireland might be read . and that of the commons-house was read , being in effect , the declaration of the commons-house there , importing ; whereas they have with one consent , cleerly given to his majesty , four entire subsidies towards his present preparations , to reduce his disaffected subjects , the covenanters in scotland , to their due obedience ; they still hope that his majesties great wisdom , and unexampled clemency , may yet prevail with the worse affected of those his subjects , to bring them to that conformity and submission , which by the laws of god and nature they owe to him : but if his majesty shall be enforced to use his power , to vindicate his just authority : this house for themselves , and the commons of this kingdom , do profess , that their zeal and duty shall not stay here at these four subsidies , but humbly promise , that they will be ready with their persons and estates , to their uttermost ability for his majesties future supply in parliament , as his great occasions , by the continuance of his forces against that distemper shall require . this they pray , that it may be represented to his majesty by the lord lieutenant , and recorded as an ordinance of parliament , and published in print as a testimony to all the world and succeding ages ; that as this kingdom hath the happiness to be governed by the best of kings , so they desire to give cause , that he shall account this people amongst the best of his subjects . the declaration of the lords spiritual and temporal being of the same tenor , was spared to be read . upon which my lord of strafford said , that if he had procured this declaration , it had been no crime , considering what preceeded in the kings council there . but he says he hath no part in it , it was done with the greatest freedom and cheerfulness that ever he did , or shall see a thing of that nature done : it must be ascribed to that nation , and the zeal , affection , and chearfulness , by which they discovered themselves to the kings service , to which there was no need to invite them . but if he had had a part in it , he might have justified it , considering what precedent instructions he had from the king , which he could shew , but that he is loath to take up their lordships time . the next thing he is charged withal is , for confederating with sir george ratcliffe , and together with him , traiterously conspiring , to employ the army raised in ireland , for the ruine and destruction of the kingdom of england , and of his majesties subjects ; and subverting the fundamental laws of this kingdom . to which he saith , that truly if it be made appear , that he had so much as any such thought in his breast , he should easily give judgement against himself , as not worthy to live . if he should confederate to the destruction of the countrey that bore him , and consequently to the making of himself and his posterity little else than vassals , who were born a free people , by the goodness of almighty god , and under the protection and justice of the king , and particularly of his majesty , that he hath a heart that loves freedom as well as another man , and values it as highly , and in a modest and dutiful way , will go as far to defend it : and therefore certainly he is not altogether so probably to be thought a person that would go against it ; nay , he thinks that man doth the king the best service , that stands for the modest propriety and liberty of the subject . it hath been once his opinion , which he learnt in the honourable house of commons , when he had the honor to sit there ; it hath gone along with him in the whole course of his service to the common-wealth , and by the grace of god , he shall carry it to his grave ; that the prerogative of the crown , and liberty of the subject , should be equally looked upon , and served together , but not apart . the proof they offer for this , is a strange manner of proof ; for first they prove by sir robert king , what sir george ratcliffe said ; they will not admit the examination of sir george ratcliffe , but here is a report upon a report ; and what sayes this gentleman ? he tells of some time sir george ratcliffe said , which was not concerning him ( the defendant ) and was impertinent for him to repeat . but the deponent sayes in the conclusion , that as he understood them , there was some danger towards , &c. then comes my lord ranalaugh , and reports the words of sir george ratcliffe , and in conclusion sayes , that by some things he did gather , he had fears there might be some intendment , to employ that army in ireland , or some other place ; but he ( the defendant ( offers to their lordships , that what sir george ratcliffe said , was nothing to him , and so could not charge him with it . the meanest subject in the kingdom cannot commit treason by letter of attorney ; and it is a priviledge which , though he hath the honor to be a peer , he shall never desire that a peer may do it by proxy : sir george ratcliffe cannot speak , nor procure treason for him ; and being sir george ratcliffes words , they cannot be his ( the earl of straffords ) offence ; and he hopes sir george will answer them , as an honest gentleman , and a privy-counsellor to the king , which he hath the honor to be in ireland . and how sir robert king understood them , is as little , if not less to him ( the defendant ) sir robert's understanding of a thing can make no crime to him ( my lord of strafford ) and for my lord ranalaugh's fears , he may take them back again , for it will be shewed they were groundless fears , viz. that this army was intended for english ground : for him to imagine , that because my lord of strafford said , it was like to be a troublesome world , and that he was willing to sell his land , therefore this army should come into england ; these be non sequiturs , and fancies of his own , and there was no colour for such fears in his lordship . besides , my lord ranalaugh was not acquainted with the design , and therefore he might easily mistake , but others were acquainted with it , in such manner , as is expressed in his answer , and which ( my lord said ) he shall now declare , viz. that there was no intention or purpose of bringing this irish army into england ; and whereas to the design he hath exprest in his answer , of having two honourable persons to be made privy , and divers others to his papers , he humbly besought their lordships to favour him so far , as to suffer him to ask a question of three or four persons he shall produce , professing that there was never a thought in any mans heart that he knew , nor never a word in any mans mouth , that ever he heard , that any part of the army should ever touch a foot on english ground , as some of their lordships , and his majesty knows ( where his lordship added ) if he may with reverence name his majesty in that poor and distressed condition , wherein himself is ; for he is not worthy of his protection , being in this miserable case , and therefore it was too much boldness for him , to name him ; but his lordship desired the benefit of reading my lord of northumberland's examination , to the point of that design . algernon , earl of northumberland , his examination taken . to the first interrogatory he saith , that he hath often heard both his majesty , and the earl of strafford mention the foot , which were to be raised in ireland ; but to his best remembrance , he never heard any intention , of bringing the said foot , or any part thereof into england ; that the design of landing them on the west of scotland , was often spoke of , and so resolved , as he believes . to the second he saith , he doth not remember , that ever he heard the earl of strafford speak or mention the reducing of the subjects of england by the said army in ireland . here my lord of strafford desired their lordships to take notice , that my lord of northumberland was one of the committee of eight for scotch affairs . the lord marq. hamilton being sworn and interrogated , what he knew or believed , concerning the raising of foot in ireland ; or whether he was privy to any intention of bringing the same , or any part of them into england ? his lordship answered , it is late , and time is precious to their lordships , and so he shall answer as shortly as he can unto that question . it is very true , his majesty was graciously pleased to acquaint him with the resolution of raising that army of foot ; and it is true , that the resolution was , that these men should land in the west of scotland , about a certain town , called ayre , or where my lord should find it most convenient . and for any thing he ( the examinant ) knows , there was no other design , he never heard of any , nor did he hear of the bringing of them into england , for any such use or end , or that they were ever to come to england at all . being asked whether he heard my lord of strafford speak any thing concerning the reducing of england by the army ? his lordship answered , that he doth not remember my lord of strafford to have spoken any such words . sir tho. lucas , sergeant-major-general of the horse of the king's army in ireland , who ( as my lord of strafford said ) being with him him here in candlemas-term was months , in his own lodging at covent-garden , something passed between them , concerning the disposing of the foot , and horse , to what purpose they were raised . and being asked , what was the intent and circumstance of that discourse ? he answered , that about the latter end of ianuary . my lord of strafford told him , an army was to be raised in ireland , another in england , and with the english army a regiment of horse , whereof his ( the examinants ) troop should be one , and some regiments of foot , and these foot and horse were to joyn with the irish army ; and that my lord taking a map of scotland ( which lay then in the chamber ) said , now i must tell you the greatest secret in all the world , and pointed with his finger towards that part of scotland , which lies on the dunbar-frith : and said , the irish army is to land here , and here i intend to take a town ( but he did not nominate the town ) and added , that he might the more easily do it , because the scots would not expect his landing there , but it is likely , will imagine the landing of the irish army at carlisle , or some other part of england . and his lordship said further , that when he had taken this , he would strongly fortifie it , intending it for a magazine of ammunition and victuals for the irish army , and so he should bring all the countrey about to contribution , even to edenburgh , and when he is landed , he ( the examinant ) should have notice , and should joyn with the irish army ; and that he would send these horse , my lord spake to him the examinant , about , ( as he thinks ) to convey him the examinant to him . my lord of strafford added , that the truth is , there were foot-regiments of sir tho. wharton's , and sir arthur tyrringham's , and sir tho. lucas's regiment of horse ; that ( when the irish were landed in scotland ) were to be fetcht by ships from st. rees , and so to have joyned with the others . and it was supposed , would have found no great difficulty on a suddain for such a march , and sir tho. wharton , and sir arthur tyrringham came over purposely , to have persued his design ; by which it appears , there was no design to bring them to england ; and so a strange philosophy it was to bring it into any mans thoughts , it should be so . mr. slingsby being interrogated , what he knew concerning the design of the irish army ? he answered . that he had the honor to be sworn of the council of war , and then the charge of making the whole magazine of ammunition and provision for that army , was conferred on him , that he repaired to england days after my lord , and persued his received instructions , for making preparations of artillery and ammunition directed , which he got all shipp'd and ready about iuly ; that the slow proceedings of the irish army did then retard his directions from my lord-lieutenant , for the dispatch away of those ships which were ready . that my lord was pleased to tell him , he must provide some stores for a magazine for maintainance of the soldiers ; that he was pleased to impart to him , that the army was to land in scotland about aire ; that he thereupon proceeded to get a map drawn of that coast , and informed himself by that map , and discoursed with scotchmen in town ; that aire was a barred harbor , and that divers ordinance were mounted to intercept the landing , which he representing to my lord-lieutenant , my lord directed him to take consideration of the burdens of the ships , and whether they could be brought to ride near the town , and that there might be provision of flat-bottomm'd boats to land a good number at once ; that he had a warrant to receive of the king 's flat-bottomm'd boats , and were provided by my lord of antrim the last year with oars , and a floating battery to secure the landing of the men ; that he had direction to obtain warrants from my lord of newport for , , or pieces of ordinance , that at first he had , afterwards more iron pieces for fortification , which ( as my lord of strafford had imparted to him the examinant ) were to fortifie the place after landing at aire , and were shipt and sent away , but the ships were not sent a good while after , by reason of the slow proceedings of the army . being asked whether my lord of strafford did not give him direction to get a coast-map , to let him know the particular place , where he intended to land ? he answered , that he was particularly commanded to get a platt drawn , and the party that drew it is in town , and can testify , that he designed him . being asked , whether he had not commission and instructions from my lord of strfford to discharge some ships for the lessening of the kings charge , and to take only so many , as might be fit for the service ? he answered , that he received that command from my lord lieutenant , to discharge most of the ships , and none went about but them that were laden with ammunition , and he received direction to take as few ships as he could , to prevent charge to his majesty , and discharged some or flemish ships that were fraighted . this my lord of strafford said , he offers , because he would not have it stick with any man , that in the things concerning the kings service , necessaries were not ready at the time ; therefore he would not have any thing asperse him ; for the king never commanded him any thing , but ( according to what he understood , ) he did it faithfully , and never any thing miscarried . sir william pennyman being asked , what my lord of strafford's answer was to him , when he told my lord of some news scattered , that the irish army were intended for england ? he answered , he did ask such a question , and remembers it ( and may be , more particularly than my lord doth ) that he was newly come from his quarter , and my lord told him , that some of their lordships were come with a petition to the king , and , among other things , petitioned , that the irish army should not come over , and wondered , their lordships should petition for that ; for certainly , he should know that particular as much as their lordships ; and protested , before god , they were never intended to set foot on english ground : that he ( sir william pennyman ) reply'd again , certainly a great many more were in a great deal of darkness and error ; for , he had asked sir robert farrar the reason the irish army did not come over , it being the conjecture of a great many they should land at workington ; and his lordship protested again , that he never knew they were to set foot on english ground . he ( the defendant ) confesseth , he said , the army was to come to workington , and joyn with the kings forces at barwick ; for , he had no reason to prepare the scots before-hand but to disguise the business , though he never thought nor heard of any purpose under heaven , that any of them should come on english ground : and added , that he did not rest here , but acquainted my lord of ormond the lieutenant-general of that army , my lord president of munster , my lord justice burlace ( who now is general of the artillery ) that the army was to be sent for knockfergus , the northerly part of ireland , and the business to be for scotland , not for england : and , the sending of all the stores to the uttermost confines , shews plainly and demonstratively , that the design wrought there , howsoever it was pretended in another place . the next thing brought into his charge , is from the mouth of his own brother ; and , it is narrowly sought after , even in his innermost friends , his brother , his table , his house , his bed , in every place , for something to convince him of that , which he thanks god he was never guilty of . it is from a testimony of sir tho. barrington , who tells what passed between sir thomas and his brother . but , in answer thereunto , he offers , that what his brother sayes is nothing to him : his brother is a young gentleman ; and , in things that concern the kings service , and where there lies the obligation of an oath , his brother knows no more from him , than a meer stranger , nor shall , though he knows him well : and therefore he hopes this cannot convince him , when the whole course of his actions goes another way . but , thus much he must say for his brother , before he be examined , that when it was first opened in the parliament house , that one near to him in blood should say , england would be never well till it be conquer'd again ; he could not imagine who in the world it should be ; and besought their lordships , that , since he now comes to know it , his brother may be asked , whether he knows any thing of it ? sir george wentworth being to speak as to the said discourse , mr. maynard opposed this proceeding , as tending to the clearing of himself ; supposing , that if they had examined him , whether he had spoken the words or no , their lordships would not have suffered him to be examined to charge himself ; and their lordships judgments were humbly demanded , whether if he be not to be examined on one side , he should be examined on the other ? but sir george wentworth desiring to be heard for his own justification , mr. maynard further offered , that being for his own justification , he could not ( under favour of their lordships ) be heard . and their lordships directed it accordingly . my lord of strafford offering to their lordships , that it is easie to mistake words , that pass betwixt man and man , in ordinary and familiar discourse ; and , that memories that can remember things , so long since , he protested are quicker and fresher then ever his was . the committee thereupon offered to confirm the testimony by some other circumstances ; but , their lordships seeming satisfied , it was forborn . and so my lord of strafford concluded that part of the charge , which concerned his conspiring with sir george ratcliffe , to bring over the irish army to the prejudice of england ; thinking , as he said , that he had clearly and evidently demonstrated it to be a truth , that will not be denied him , that the intendment was for no such purpose , and consequently there was no such conspiracy to any such intent : and therefore left it to their lordships further , and wiser , and nobler considerations . the next thing , is the words charged to have been spoken after his return into england , to sundry persons , declaring his opinion , that his majesty should first try the parliament here , and , if they did not supply him according to his present exigency , he might use his prerogative as he pleased , and to levy what he needed . and , all the proofe of these words , is the testimony of my lord primate , whereunto he hath given that answer already , that he hopes will be satisfactory . as to the other part , that the king shall be acquitted before god and men , if he take other course to supply himself , though against the good will of his subjects . this he hath answered already , and shall not need to repeat : but , he finds some things in the proofes , which , whether they mean to make use of , to prove any of the words he knows not : and therefore he desired to touch on them a little . the first proof hereof , is the testimony of mr. comptroller , that he , the ( earl of strafford ) should say something of deserting the king , but he remembers not the particulars : in which words he conceives there is nothing that can make him criminal before their lordships . the next is , of what my lord of bristol sayes ; whose discourse came in upon some difference between the tenants of his lordship ( the earl of bristol ) and his ( the said earl of strafford ) the discourse he remembers very well , my lord of bristol honouring him with a visit when he was sick ; and , he remembers , something was spoken to that effect and purpose , as it is in the testimony . but , what is this as to the charge laid against him ? in the charge , there are only such words that may prejudice him , but nothing that may forfeit his life , estate , and honor. as in the case of extream and unavoidable necessitie , viz. the invasion of a foreign enemy , when there is not time to call a parliament . and , the king may in that case use , as the common parent of the country , what power god almighty hath given him , for preserving himself , and his people , for whom he is accomptable to almighty god , is a thing quite different , from what is in an ordinary case . he confesses , his opinion is , the king hath a power absolutely to use all possible means for the safety of the publick . in these cases he hath a power given him by god almighty , that cannot be taken from him by others ; neither , under favour , is he able to take it from himself . if this be a fond and foolish opinion , he craves their lordships pardon ; but , he thinks , a man should not forfeit his life and honor , and posterity , for a foolish opinion ; god forbid that common-law , or statute-law , should make that treason in any man. so that he acknowledges , there was some such discourse ; but , all things taken together , carries the state of the question quite another way , then when taken to pieces . my lord of bristols testimony sayes further . but my lord of strafford then said , the king was not to be mastered by the frowardness or wilfulness of his people , or rather by the disaffection of some particular men . to which words , he sayes , if he did remember them , he would acknowledge them : but , being then in that condition , delivered from a great and long sickness , infirm and weak ; both in the powers of his mind , and faculties of his body , if he be not able to recollect every thing , it is no marvel : but , he relies so much on the honor and nobleness of my lord of bristol , that seeing he sayes that he said it , he will not deny it , though he cannot remember it . but he must say withal , that his testimony cannot work any thing towards him further , then a single testimony can do in this case : and therefore , without offence , he shall desire , in this particular , to reserve that benefit to himself , that the law in this case gives him , in such sort , as hereafter he shall be bold to put their lordships in mind of , that is , how far a single testimony may work to the prejudice of a man , charged with high treason . the next testimony is my lord of newburgh ; that he heard me ( the defendant ) say , or words to this effect , that seeing the parliament had not supplied the king , his majesty might take other courses for the defence of the kingdom . these words i do ( said the defendant ) acknowledge : and he trusts there is no offence in this saying ; for , i conceive , that the king is not secluded , nor any one else , in a fair , and just , and an honourable way , from doing the best for himself , and his own preservation ; but those other courses that were intended , were just and lawful courses ; he must put that grain of salt into all the rest of his discourse ; that it was meant of no other wayes or means , but such as were allowed by the laws of the land , and were fit for a gracious and pious king to use : and so understood , he knows no reason , but the king should be left to supply himself , in all the fair and just ways he can , if the parliament should not supply him. the next testimony is my lord of holland's , and his lordship sayes , that at council-table my lord of strafford should say , that the parliament having deny'd the king , gave him an advantage to supply himself otherwayes . but , he sayes still , other lawful wayes ; it gave him advantage to use his prerogative in lawful wayes , further then otherwise perhaps out of his goodness , he would have done : therefore , giving those words that interpretation , he conceives they cannot be layd to him as a charge of high-treason . the next is the testimony of my lord of northumberland , who sayes , my lord of strafford said , that in case of necessity , and for defence and safety of the kingdom ; if the people refuse , the king might do every thing for the preservation of his people . this brings it much to the other business before spoken of , it being in case of necessity , for defence and safety of the kingdom , and to be used for preservation of the people ; for , he must needs say , that is his opinion , grounded upon that maxim , salus populisuprema lex ; in these things when ordinary formes cannot be had ( for when they may be had , to go to extraordinary , is not right ) but , when the ordinary wayes fail , and the occasion gives no time , god forbid , but the king should employ the uttermost of his power , wisdom , and courage , for preservation of himself and his people ; and , to say it with limitation , under favour , doth state the question quite otherwayes , then if the words were taken alone , and not put together . but , that with these limitations he spake , both these things , and diverse others , will more fully and clearly appear in the next succeeding article : for , here he is charged with speaking things at large ; but there at the council-board , and there it will come in properly . at which time he shall desire to examine some of their lordships , and , it shall appear , words of this nature went alwayes in this sort from him , in case of a foraign invasion , in case of an enemy actually entred , or to be entred , and not otherwise ; which makes it another question , then as by the antecedents and consequents it is laid in the charge . besides , this offence is , but words spoken by way of argument , in common discourse , betwixt man and man , without any further , or other proceeding , or execution upon these words : and , shall these be brought against a man , and charged on him as high-treason ? god forbid that ever we should live to see such an example in this kingdom : a matter of infinite prejudice and danger to every man ; for , when that is done , no man can be safe . is there any thing more ordinary , then for men in discourse , to seem to be of a contrary opinion to what they are , to invite another man to give reasons , perhaps to confirm him in his own opinion , though he seems to argue against it ? is any thing more familiar , than for a man to seem to be of an opinion , to gain a reason to confirm that opinion which he is of , and contrary to that he seems to defend , by this means to get the strength of other mens reasons to confirm his own by ? again , is any thing more familiar in private discourse , between man and man , than when one is so far on that side the line , for the other to go as far himself , that he may meet the first man in the midst ? if a man meet with one that is as far below , as himself is above , and shall seem to maintain further , than his reason and belief carries him , to bring the other to moderation , shall this be charged on him as a treason ? if words spoken to friends , in familiar discourse , spoken in ones chamber , spoken at ones table , spoken in ones sick-bed , spoken , perhaps , to gain better reason , to give himself more clear light and judgment , by reasoning ; if these things shall be brought against a man , as treason ; this , under favour , takes away the comfort of all humane society : by this means we shall be debarred of speaking ( the principal joy and comfort of society ) with wise and good men , to become wiser , and better our lives . if these things be strained to take away life , and honor , and all that is desirable , it will be a silent world ; a city will become an hermitage , and sheep will be found amongst a crowd and press of people ; and , no man shall dare to impart his solitary thoughts , or opinion , to his friend and neighbor , but thereby be debarred from consulting with wiser men then himself , whereby he may understand the law , wherewith he ought to be governed . but , these be but words all the while ; and , if he shall shew , that words of a higher nature , shall , by the judgment of an english parliament , be thought not to be treason ; why should he think , or imagine , or fear , that their lordships will make these indiscreet and idle expressions of his , reach so high as his head , and take the comfort of his life and children from him . no statute makes words treason : and , if the fundamental law , the common law of the land had made them treason , surely the parliament would never have set a mulct upon them . this statute is , ed. . cap. . as followeth , be it enacted by the authority aforesaid , if any person or persons , do compass , and imagine , by open preaching , express words , or saying , to depose , or deprive the king , his heirs , or successors , from his , or their royal estate , or title , or openly publish , or say , by express words , or saying , that any other person , or persons other then the king , his heirs or successors , of right ought to be , &c. these be words of higher nature , than those charged upon himself ; and yet the first offence is made but loss of goods , and imprisonment ; for the second , loss of lands , goods , and imprisonment ; the third time is only made treason . he added , that their lordships will never think these words , being flym-flam , that pass in a negligent manner betwixt man and man , shall ever be brought to be treason . and , whereas e. . hath these words , when a man doth compass , or imagine the death of our lord the king. the very words are mentioned in e. . when a man doth compass , or imagine , by open preaching , &c. to depose the king. and the first statute provides , that if a man shall compass the death of the king , and be not thereof attainted by open deed , it is not treason . and , the statute of h. . and mar. concurr with this , and shew , that the intent of these was to take away the danger the subject might incurr , if bare words should be brought against him as treason . and , it hath been the wisdom of their lordships noble ancestors , and this state , that they have alwayes endeavoured to conclude the danger that may fall on the subject by treason , that it might be limited and bounded , and that it might be so understood as to be avoided ; and , he hopes , we shall never be so improvident , as to sharpen this two-edged sword against our selves , and the faces of our posterity , and to let the lion loose to tear us all in pieces ; for , if way be given to arbitrary treason , and to the wits of men , to work upon it , to prejudice or question life , it would be very dangerous . and , he believes , that in this hall there would be actions of treason that would fly as familiarly up and down , as actions of trespass : and therefore since by the goodness of our king , and the wisdom of our ancestors , we have been thus provided for , why we should entangle our selves into the straights they could not endure , but endeavoured , by all means , to free themselves from the dangers that familiarly follow them , he cannot see . to the first part of the d article , concerning the last parliament , the gentlemen have reserved themselves till to morrow , and therefore he shall not need to speak to that , and so there will remain nothing for him to answer , but the last part of the act , with the next charge , concerning words spoken at the council-board , or at the committee for scotch affairs , viz. that his majesty having tried the affections of his people , he was loose and absolved from all rules of government , and was to do every thing that power would admit ; and , that his majesty had tried all wayes , and was refused , and should be acquitted both before god and man ; and that he had an army in ireland , which he might employ to reduce this kingdom to obedience . concerning this particular , he says , he remembers not anything , but what mr. treasurer is pleased to speak of : and , whereas mr. treasurer , as concerning that part , said , he loves to speak the truth ; my lord of strafford said , he doubts not but he doth , for that we should all do , he is sure of it ; but , mr. treasurer has reversed his testimony , in saying , that he will not speak to the very words themselves , but to these , or words to the like effect ; and , if he be not mistaken , and to the best of his remembrance , that , his majesty having tryed all wayes , and being refused , in this extream necessity , and , for the safety of the kingdom , and people , he might do , &c. and , that your majesty hath an army in ireland , which you may employ ( there , he said at first ) and afterwards ( which you may employ to this kingdom . ) and , he saith , he doth not interpret these words , but gives the words clearly and plainly , as my lord of northumberland hath declared , and that it was soon after the dissolution of the last parliament , to his best remembrance , and at the committee of ; and , he thinks , my lord spake them positively , or something to that effect . now , whereas he calls in to his aid my lord of northumberland , under favour , my lord of northumberland declared no such words , but absolutely denies , in his examination , that he ever heard my lord of strafford mention the reducing of england by an irish army : it is true , my lord of northumberland goes thus far , that he hath heard him say something , whereby he might conceive , there was intended some course of raising moneys by extraordinary wayes . and , that my lord of strafford confesses is very true , for , if it were by borrowing or l. it is an extraordinary way ; the kings revenue could not serve these occasions , there must be other wayes , and loan was one , and that fair , and honourable , and just . so then , as to this testimony , the defendant offers to their lordships , that he hath examined my lord of northumberland , and he knows no such thing ; he hath examined my lord marquiss of hamilton , and his lordship is pleased to say , he remembers no such thing at the committee of . he desired my lord treasurer might be examined to the same words . the l. treasurer being asked , whether ever he heard my lord of strafford in any private council , or debate with the king , tell him the said words ? he answered , that he never heard my lord speak those words of the irish army , nor any thing like it ; and he repeated , that he never heard his lordship speak it in the manner proposed , nor any thing like it . being asked ( on mr. maynards motion ) whether he ever heard my lord of strafford say , the king was loose , and absolved from all government ? he answered , that he desired time to consider of that . he remembers not any such thing , but he reserves himself for that . being asked on the like motion , whether he heard my lord of strafford say any thing to that purpose , that the parliament had deserted , or forsaken the king ? he answered , that he remembers not that he heard any such thing . lord cottington being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) whether he heard my lord of strafford say such words , that the king had an army in ireland , and he might employ them to reduce this kingdom ? he answered , that he hath heard the question heretofore , and is very confident he did never hear him say it in his hearing ; and , that he hath a great deal of reason to be confident of it . being asked ( on mr. maynards motion ) whether he heard my lord of strafford say , that the king was absolved , or loose from all rules of government , or words to that effect ? he answered , that , as he takes it , he hath been asked to that question too ; and , he thinks , he never heard the words , for it was ( as he thinks ) a very absurd proposition , and he should not have heard it with patience . being asked , on the like motion , whether he heard him say , the parliament had forsaken , or denyed , or deserted the king , or words to that effect ? he answered , that for saying , the parliament had not provided for the king , the parliament was ended , and had not provided for the king ; and , that the parliament had not provided , or left the king without money ; it is very probable he did say it ; and , he thinks , he did so , for it was the truth . being asked , whether he said , the parliament had denyed the king ? he answered , that what his words were , it is a hard matter for him to say ; that he said , the parliament had denyed , or left the king , he will not swear . being asked , on like motion , whether he perswaded the king that he was to be supplyed in extraordinary wayes ? he answered , that he cannot swear that neither . where mr. maynard observed , that my lord of strafford himself granted , and yet that 's forgotten . to which my lord cottington answered , that if the gentlemen would have heard him out , he should have given good satisfaction . he hath been examined , whether my lord of strafford used these words , extraordinary wayes ; and he cannot say he did ; but he hath heard him say , the king ought to seek out all due and legal wayes , and to employ his power , and authority , and prerogative , castè & candidè , he remembers these words very well . for close of his defence to these words , that his majesty had an army in ireland to reduce this kingdom , witnessed by mr. treasurer . my lord of strafford said , mens memories are weak , and the best may be mistaken , or misremember , and may think one man says that which another man says , or that a man says that , which in truth he did not say , as it is in this case . their lordships have had all the light that is possible for him the defendant to give them . my lord of northumberland being examined on oath , sayes , he remembers not the words . my lord marquis hamilton remembers them not . my lord treasurer of england remembers neither that , nor any thing like it ; my lord cottington remembers no such thing , and is well assured , he never heard him say any such thing . here are all that are left of the committee , save my lord of canterbury , and him ( the defendant ) cannot examine , otherwise he would . secretary windebank is a little too far off to be heard at this time , and if their lordships could ask him , whether the defendant ever spake the words , on the faith of a christian and a gentleman , he will take his oath , he doth not think nor believe he ever spake them , but believes as constantly , as possible can be , that he never spake them ; he would be loath to swear he did not , it being so long since : but when his words shall more particularly , and specially be remembred by another man , than by himself , he must commend that memory , that observed what he said , so perfectly , as to be able to give a better account of them than himself , the party that spake the words , or any man in the company besides . my lord further insisted , that this concerns him very nearly , for it would be a grievous charge that is on him by this means ( though not in the intendment ) of the gentleman that urges it , who ( he hopes wishes him well ) if he should be thought to be an overthrower of the liberties of the subject by a foreign army . however , it is a single testimony , and no more , and that single testimony ( without any prejudice to the testimony ) cannot rise in judgement against him ; nay , he cannot be indicted nor arraigned of high treason for it , by the statutes of e. . ca. . the last proviso of it , in these words . be it enacted by the authority aforesaid , that no person or persons after the first day of february next coming , shall be indicted , arraigned , condemned , or convicted of any offence of treason , petty-treason , or misprision of treason , or any words before specified , after the first day of february , for which the said offender or speaker shall suffer any pain of death , imprisonment , loss , forfeiture of goods , lands , or tenements , unless the said offender , or speaker , be accused by two sufficient and lawful witnesses , orshall willingly without violence confess the same . and if their lordships will give leave to consider the first part of the words , being fairly and indifferently interpreted , and with the secret reservations , men ought to speak things withal ( for we ought to think just things , and that men will do nothing but fairly , and these are conditions implyed , when we speak of the sacred majesty of kings ) let that be implyed , it could not be high treason to tell the king , that having tryed the affections of his people , he was loose and absolved from all rules of government ; that is , all ordinary rules , and was to do every thing that power would admit ; that is , that power would lawfully admit , and that his majesty had tryed all just and honourable ways , and was refused , and should be acquitted both of god and men . the last words , that the king had an army in ireland , which he might imploy to reduce this kingdom , he denies ; and if the other words be fairly interpreted with the reservations granted a man in that case , being spoken of so great a person as the king , nothing in them can turn so much to the prejudice of the speaker . but he desires leave to offer the antecedents and consequents of all that he said in council , whereupon this is gathered ; and then they find the case otherwise stated , than as it is strained in the charges . god forbid any man should be judged for words taken by pieces , here a word and there a word , where the antecedent and consequents are left out , for then treason may be fetcht out of every word a man speaks ; as for example , if one asks him whether he will go to such a place , he tells him by way of answer , he will kill the king as soon ; the other swears , he said , he would kill the king ; it is very true indeed , but if the other words be added , it will then imply , that he will be sure not to kill the king , and therefore he will be sure not to goe to the place . and if the words be taken together , he puts the case thus ; in case of absolute necessity , and upon a foreign invasion of an enemy , when the enemy is either actually entred , or ready to enter , and when all other ordinary means fail , in this case there is a trust left by almighty god in the king , to employ the best and uttermost of his means , for the preserving of himself and his people , which , under favour , he cannot take away from himself . and as this did precede these words , so there were divers restrictions added to them ; for he says , this must be done only , and upon no other pretence whatsoever , but for the preservation of the common-wealth , that it must be done candidè , & castè , that if it were done on any other pretence whatsoever , than clearly and fairly , for preserving the common-wealth , that would prove it to be oppressive and injurious , which otherwise rightly employed , would become a pious and christian king ; and that when the present danger of the common-wealth was , by the wisdom , and courage , and power of the king prevented , and the publique weal secured ; in a time proper and fit , the king was obliged to vindicate the property and liberty of the subject from any ill prejudice , that might fall from such a precedent ; and until the prerogative of the crown , and liberty of the subject are so bounded , that they may be rightly understood by king and people , ( which cannot be without a parliament ) his majesty and they can never look to be happy . now if he shall make this appear to be true ( as he hopes he shall ) then he conceives he states their lordships a quite different question , from that brought against him in the charge , and brings an opinion so concluded , and shut up with restrictions , and with necessity , and with unavoidable danger that were otherwise to fall on the common-wealth , as he trusts , cannot bring any manner of ill consequence whatsoever publiquely or privately to any creature . for this purpose , he desired the favour to examine some of the noble lords present , and that first , the examinations of my lord of northumberland might be read , and they were read accordingly . to the third interrogatory he saith , that the earl of strafford declared his opinion , that his majesty might use his power when the kingdom was in danger , or unavoidable necessity , or words to that effect . to the fourth , that the said earl did often say , that that power was to be used candidè & castè , and an account thereof should be given to the parliament , that they might see it was only imployed to that use . to the sixth , that the said earl of strafford said , that this kingdom could not be happy , but by good agreement in parliament , between the king and his people . my lord of strafford observed , that this was at the very same time , and let all the world judge , whether he had any intention to subvert the fundamental laws of the land , or no ? next he desired my lord marquis of hamilton might be examined to the interrogatory my lord of northumberland was examined to . marquis hamilton examined to the said interrogatory , ( viz. ) whether the said earl of strafford delivering his opinion , how far the king might use a power after the breach of the late parliament , did not put the case when there was an unavoidable necessity , upon actual invasion , or an enemies army ready to enter the land ? his lordship answered , that he hears the question , and remembers the same question was asked him formerly on his oath , when he was deponed , and he then said as now , he could not call to mind what my lord said in that point . whether my lord of strafford did not say , that that power was to be used candidè & castè , and if it were used for any other purpose , it would be unjust and oppressive ? his lordship answered , that he hath heard him use those words often to his majesty , and on them , or immediately after , he declared his opinion , that it would never be happy in this kingdom , till there be a right understanding between the king and his people , and that could not be , but by a parliament . whether he did not say at that time , that the present danger provided for , and all which setled , the king was bound to preserve the liberty and propriety of the subject , from the prejudice of such a precedent ? his lordship answered , he remembers something of that , but cannot positively say , because he cannot tell what the precedent was . being asked ( on mr. whitlock's motion ) what time he heard these words from my lord of strafford , in the said second question ? he answered , professing that his memory is not good , and if it fails not him in this , he may boldly affirm , he heard my lord of strafford speak the words , both before , and since the dissolution of the last parliament . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) whether his majesty was pleased to declare to the lords of the council , that he had perfect and full intelligence , that the scotch army intended to march into england ? he answered , he remembers very well his majesty had frequent advertisements of the scots intentions to come into england , he knows it very well , and he had not done his duty if he had concealed it , for he was one of them that told him of it . lord goring being examined to the first and second question , proposed to my lord marquis . his lordship answered , that he remembers something to this purpose , and candidè & castè makes him call it to mind , but the particulars he cannot remember ; candidè & castè , for using the kings power , he hath heard often . tho. german being examined to the same question . answered , that he would be very loath to say anything that doth not perfectly occurr to his remembrance ; he remembers that divers times at council-board , my lord spake these words , candidè & castè , and he remembers them very perfectly , but what day and time , he remembers not ; but he remembers very perfectly , he heard my lord of strafford say , it must be on an urgent and unavoidable occasion , that any by-course should be taken , or put in practice , but what day and time he cannot tell ; to the exact words of the interrogation he cannot say , but something to the sence , as he ( the examinant ) delivers them . being asked whether my lord of strafford hath not concluded , that things will not be right , till there be a right understanding between the king and his people , or words to that effect ? he answered , that he thinks no man hath the honor to sit at that board , but will give him that testimony , that he hath often spoken , that the greatest happiness that can occurr to the king and people , is the happy agreement and understanding between them . being asked ( on mr. glyn's motion ) whether those words were used before the dissolution of the parliament , or since ? he answered , to his best remembrance before , yet he doth not deny but they may be said since , that he must leave to the lords , whose memories serve better to distinguish times . the lord treasurer being examined to the first question , proposed to my lord marquis . he answered , that he doth not remember the discourse about his business . being asked to the question nov. . proposed to the lord marquis . he answered , that phraze of candidè & castè , he remembers very well , were used more than once ; but whether they were applyed to this particular , he cannot speak : he remembers my lord used the words in such a sence , and the interpretation of them was chastly and honestly , but the other part he cannot remember . being asked to the question , nov. . proposed to the lord marquis ? he answered , that he remembers not any of it . lord cottington being examined to the question nov. . proposed to the lord marquis ? he answered , that if his deposition be looked upon , it will be found , he did say , my lord put the case so , and he now says it again , he the examinant did declare , and understand that my lord — being asked to the question nov. . proposed to my lord marquis ? he answered , that he thinks he hath answer'd this already ; he remembers the words candidè & castè , and that the power the king had for the preservation of himself , his crown , posterity , and people , ought to be used candidè & castè , in all fair and just ways . being asked whether my lord of strafford did not say , that the king was bound after the present danger provided for , to free the subject in propriety and liberty , from the prejudice of such a precedent ? he answered , that he said the necessity being past , and the work done , the king ought to repair it , and not to leave any precedent , to the prejudice of his people . being asked , whether my lord did not say that in conclusion , all must be setled by parliament , and till all the dispute betwixt the prerogative of the crown , and liberty of the subject be determined , neither king nor people should be happy ? he answered , that he verily believes many of their lordships have often heard him say it ; he hath heard my lord say it to the king at the council-table . it hath been always his position , and to himself the examinant , he hath said often , both before the last parliament , and after it was broken ; and it was an ordinary discourse to his majesty , that his majesty could not be happy , till there were an happy union betwixt himself and the parliament , and the prerogative and liberty of the subjects were determined . and my lord of strafford desired to have so much benefit of their lordships justice , as to have the examinations of my lord keeper , ( which are not yet come in to these points ) reserved . and now he said he had stated to their lordships truly and justly the question , concerning these words that are by pieces and paches charged ; and which ( taking the whole contexture of the discourse , from the beginning to the ending ) represent them quite otherwise ( as he conceives ) than might seem to be enforced against him . he offered this further to their lordships , that they see plainly and clearly proved , that at all times , and frequently , he hath presumed ( by his majesties favour and good leave ) to express himself , how necessary it is , for the happiness of the king and people , that all these matters of difference should be setled and bounded , and that by parliament : and that till they were so bounded , neither his majesty nor they could be happy : so that it was far from going against the antient grounds of government , that have been here setled in that singular providence and wisdom of our ancestors ; and never shall he contribute any thing but to the maintainance and preservation of them , in all honest and honourable ways and means whatsoever ; and if these words were spoken with that moderation and qualification , that the power to be used must be a lawful power , and the ways to be taken lawful ways , they were no way subject to exception . besides , there is one argument that cleers the intendment and meaning of the words , as he conceives , a great deal more prevalently , than if those words of lawful power , and just and honourable ways , had been put in ; and that is , that nothing hath been done by the king or the council , against the laws and customs of the realm , in pursuance of them , where it hath been any breach on any liberty or propriety of the subject ; what extraordinary course hath been taken not warrantable by law ? none that he knows of ; so that there being nothing but justly and fairly administred , the very deed done , shews them to be spoken with that meaning , and so to be interpreted so much the rather , by how much doing well , is better than saying well ; and the worst that can be made of them , they are but words and no more ; and for the excuse of them , their lordships well remember what he said concerning the statute , they can never amount to treason , and before they shall be brought to him in a criminal charge , he besought their lordships to observe something he shall offer to them . these words charged on him , were not wantonly , or unnecessarily spoken , or whispered in a corner , but they were spoken in full council , where he was by the duty of his oath obliged , to speak according to his heart and conscience , in all things concerning the kings service ; so that if he had forborn to speak what he conceived , for the benefit and advantage of the king and people ( as he conceived this to be ) he had been perjured towards god almighty , and now it seems by the speaking of them , he is in danger to be a traitor . if that necessity be put upon him , he thanks god , by his blessing he hath learned not to stand in fear of him that can kill the body ; but he must stand in fear of him that can cast body and soul into eternal pain . and if that be the question , that he must be a traitor to man , or perjured to god , he will be faithful to his creator ; and whatsoever shall befall him from a popular rage , or his own weakness , he must leave it to god almighty , and to their lordships honor and justice . nothing is more common , than for a counsellor to be of one opinion when he comes out of his chamber , and to have that opinion he delivers , presently after confuted and cleared by the wisdom and prudence of his fellow-counsellors , of better understanding than himself . and in this case ( when opinions are thus delivered , and when there are alterations of these opinions , upon the very debate ) that an opinion thus propounded , should rise in judgment , to convince a man of high treason , it is very hard ; nay , it is to be thought , that this was the very case in this particular . the opinion was , according to his heart and conscience given , and for any thing appears to their lordships , something was said at that board by others , wiser than himself , that altered him in that opinion ; for there was never any thing moved by him , to reinforce that proposition , he rested quiet with it , he offered it not again ; there was never any thing done in pursuance of that advice , either by himself , or any body else , which shews he did not press it , but was rather perswaded by better reason , that it was fit to be let alone . an opinion may make an heretick , but he never heard before , that opinion should make a traitor . and though opinions may make an heretick , yet they must be held pertinaciously , and against the light of a mans own conscience ; here no pertinacy appears , no contestation , nothing done against the light of his heart and conscience , nothing of obstinacy , frowardness , and perverseness ; but simply ( simply indeed in all respects ) he did in the duty of his place , deliver his opinion modestly and fairly , and when he had done there , he left it , and persued it no further : so that such an opinion as this , would not have made an heretique , much less a traitor . in the last place , he humbly beseeches their lordships not to make themselves so unhappy , as to disable themselves and their children , from undergoing the great charge and trust of the common-wealth . their lordships have it from their fathers , they are born to great thoughts , and are nursed up for the great and weighty imployments of the kingdom ; and god forbid that any but themselves , caeteris paribus , should have this great trust , that their birth and breeding , and ranks procure for them , under the kings goodness . but let this be admitted , that a counsellor delivering his opinion under an oath of secresie and faithfulness at council-table candidè & caste with others , shall upon his mistaking , or not knowing of the law , be brought into question , and every word that passeth from him , out of a sincere and noble intention , shall be drawn against him , for the attainting and convicting himself , his children , and posterity ; under favour , after this shall be so , he doth not know any wise and noble person of fortune , that will upon such perilous and unsafe terms , adventure to be a counsellor to the king : and therefore if their lordships put these hard strains , and tortures upon those that are the counsellors of state to his majesty , when they speak nothing but according to their hearts and consciences , ( for we that are not of the profession of the law , are not bound to speak the law , we can tell what in our hearts and consciences we conceive honourable and just , but what 's legal , is another mans business . ) this shall disable their lordships from those great imployments , to which their birth and thoughts do breed them , and make them more uncapable than any other inferior subjects : and therefore he beseeches their lordships to look on him so , that his misfortune may not bring an inconvenience upon themselves . and so he besought their lordships to pardon what he had said , with a great deal of disorder , and if their lordships take him into consideration , they will find that nothing hath appeared in him , but what is honest , just , and faithful to king and people ; though they were not so advised and discreet , and well weighed as they ought to be , yet he hoped their lordships are so honourable and good , as not to lay their charge to him as high treason . to the th article , he said he made no answer , there being nothing spoken to it ; and so he concluded his defence to these articles . mr. whitlock did thereunto reply in substance as followeth . that their lordships have heard with a great deal of patience , this long defence made by my lord of strafford , and desired the like patience from their lordships , in hearing the reply , which he doubts not but they shall obtain , and give a clear answer to all my lord of strafford hath spoken in his own defence ; and how that it comes not at all to excuse him in this case . my lord is pleased to make it his suit , that their lordships will not be guided by enforcement of words against him , but by the words themselves ; and that mr. whitlock desired likewise , presuming that their lordships will not be guided by my lord of straffords interpretation of these words to another sence , than the words bear , but judge according to the clear understanding , and common signification of them , further than which he will not strain them . whereas my lord excuses his words , that the demands by the scotch in their parliament , were a sufficient ground of war , because he gave no other opinion than the rest of the council then did ; their lordships may be pleased to observe , that my lord traquair testifies , that some of the council wereof another opinion at that time , and that these words were spoken before the reason of those demands were given ; and that there was a clear difference betwixt my lord of straffords advice , and the advice of the rest : it is evident by the opinion delivered by him long before that time in sentencing of mr. stuart in ireland , where , after the pacification , he was pleased to call the scots rebels and traitors , and that he would root them out stock and branch that took not the oath ; and he said in his answer , that when he came out of ireland into england , he found the affairs of scotland so distempered , that he thought fit to reduce the kings subjects there by force . his lordship says , that if the demands struck at the root of government , then it was fit to say , they should be reduced by force ; but the words were spoken before the reasons of the demands were known , and before he could know how they could be warranted by the laws of that kingdom ; and it is part of the charge of the house of commons , that he said they struck at the root of government , which it appears they did not ; for those very demands , against which my lord of strafford delivered his opinion , are since enacted by the parliament of scotland , and confirmed by his majesties royal authority in the treaty , which is very well known to divers of their lordships sitting here . my lord sayes , it was first resolved a war should be had ; and then , for him to debate , whether an offensive or defensive war , is no crime : but , that receives a clear answer ; for , it was his resolution , his advice , that there should be a war , and an offensive war ; which shewes his design against the kingdom of scotland . my lord labours to prove , that the seising of the scotch ships was not by his warrant , but by warrants otherwise procured . that was not insisted on in the charge , and therefore they will not insist upon it in the reply , there is enough besides . my lord is further pleased to say , that there is no substantial or concluding proofe of his intent , that the parliament should be only called , to try whether there would be supply given or no ; and , that is only deposed by my lord primate , a single testimony : but , my lord primate concurs with others , in the same sence and meaning . to my lord conwayes testimony , my lord sayes , that , for the king to help himself , is a natural motion , and proper to every one : but , the other words of my lord conwayes testimony , that the king might help and supply himself , though it were against the will of his subjects , must be understood , not of a natural , but a violent motion , and it appears to be my lord of straffords design to have it so . he comes to the testimony of my lord treasurer , and sayes , that doth not at all touch him , that he promised to assist the king in any other way , in case the parliament did not succeed . but , this proves his intent , that if the parliament were dissolved ( as he was willing it should , as it will afterwards appear ) he would assist the king in any other way whatsoever : he took a good pattern , stare super vias antiquas , and we shall prove that too ; but , this was not via antiqua of parliaments , to propose supplies in the first place , and to put off consideration of grievances , to urge nothing but to give to the king ; and , before a resolution , whether they would give or not , to informe against the parliament by misinformation . my lord mentions the declaration of the house of commons in ireland , concerning the giving of four subsidies for the kings supply of the war with scotland , which is in the charge , but was not insisted upon ; but , by shewing this , my lord of strafford hath procured that which is likewise in the charge , that the parliament of ireland did engage themselves in the war against scotland , and by the preamble of his answer , this was in my lord of straffords knowledge , and may be easily proved to be by his procurement , being the chief governor there . he sayes , that had he ever entertained such thought , as the words proved , import , he should give judgment against himself : but , as no mans thoughts can be proved but by his words and actions , so the words proved do manifest , that his thoughts were no other , and shew clearly his intention , to bring in an army on us to reduce this kingdom . my lord calls sir robert kings testimony a report on a report ; and , sayes the like of the testimony of my lord ranalagh , which shall be answered , when he comes to lay the whole matter together , according to the course of opening the articles . diverse witnesses his lordship produces , to prove , that the foot raised in ireland , were designed for scotland , and particularly for the town of aire , which is very improbable ; for that town ( as was informed , and will be proved ) was , at that time , very well fortified ; and the coasts thereof , and the haven so barred , and narrow , that one of my lord of straffords own witnesses says , there could be no probability of landing an army there : the like may be said of the frith of dunbarton , that was fortified long before . and , if their lordships repair to some part of my lord of straffords answer , where he sayes , they were to be landed in some places near the country of my lord of argile , to divert him : these places are so far from his country , and such armes of the sea , and unpassable mountains are interposed , that they could not be landed there with any intention to go to argyles country . but , admit there were a primary intention of this army in some part of scotland , the witnesses speak onely to what was intended before the army was raised ; but , when the army was on foot , my lord of straffords intention might be changed , and it seems it was ; for he laboured to perswade his majesty , to make use of it to reduce this kingdom . he sayes , the testimony touching sir george wentworths words is single , and spoken by his brother , and could not reach him ; but , though one witness testifies the words , yet it may be made appear to their lordships , that presently after the words spoken , sir tho. barrington related them to other gentlemen , who are ready to testifie , that he so related them . but , their lordships seeming satisfied in that point , directed him to proceed . next my lord discourses of my lord of bristols testimony , and the differences of opinion between them , touching the summoning of a parliament . but , my lord of bristol proves the following words , that the king was not to suffer himself to be mastered by the frowardness of his people , &c. and , to these , no answer is given . to which , mr. whitlock said , he would further answer in the general reply ; and so for the words proved by my lord of newbrough , my lord of holland , and diverse other noble lords of this house . my lord of strafford was pleased to mention the statute of e. . ca. . where , to compass by preaching , or saying , to deprive the king is not for the first offence treason , though words of a more transcendent and high nature ; and hence he inferr'd , that the words charged on him are not treason . but that statute is onely of treasons spoken of the king , but not of words and counsels , that advise the thing to be done ; and , there is no question , but at this day , for any man to advise and counsel the destruction of the king , is high-treason , notwithstanding that statute . these words charged on my lord , are a declaration of his intention , to subvert the laws and government of the kingdom , and , the use made of the words , is not , that they are in themselves treason , but as they prove that intention . but , this is the work of another time , being matter of law , and therefore mr. whitlock said , he would say no more to it now , neither doth it require his answer , nor is it at all to this business . my lord did much insist on it , that there was no mention by any of the lords that were of the committee for the scotch affairs , concerning the words of bringing the army out of ireland , to reduce this kingdom , diverse of their lordships being to that point examined : but , mr. treasurer swears in the affirmative , he heard the words spoken ; and , when they come to sum up the rest of these words , and applying them to this , shew the dependance they have one upon another , their lordships will see plainly , that must be his intention , and that there could be no other interpretation of his words : it is possible , for some that were at the council , not to hear the words , and yet that disproves not a witness , that sayes in the affirmative , he did hear the words . and , though some of my lords do not remember some other passages , as , that his majesty was loose , and absolved from all rules of government , yet that is proved by two witnesses ; and , though the rest remember them not , yet that stands clearly proved . other things , which some of their lordships did not remember , were proved by three witnesses : whence it may be deduced , that , what mr. treasurer deposes is to be believed , though some of my lords that were present did not remember it . by making a sum and collection of the words , and comparing one with another , it will appear very clear , that my lord of straffords intention was , to bring in that army to reduce this kingdom . and first , their lordships will remember the words that passed betwixt sir george rateliffe , and sir robert king ; and , the relation between my lord of strafford and sir george ratcliffe ; and , before my lord of strafford came out of ireland , he gave direction to sir george ratcliffe ; and afterwards , on a discourse , sir robert saying , how my lord of strafford , and how the said sir george ratcliffe had least cause to desire a war ; sir george replyed , we are ingaged ( not himself onely ) but we ( speaking of my lord of strafford ) are ingaged in a war : and , sir george sayes further , that the king hath men , and l. in his purse , and a sword by his side , and if he wanted money , who would pity him ? which cannot be intended but by raising of money on the subjects of england . but besides , their lordships may remember the expression of my lord ranalaugh , and sir robert king , that these forces were intended to be used for raising moneys here ; and , that my lord of strafford offers to sell his land in ireland . besides , his brother said , the commonwealth is sick of peace , and would not be well till it was conquer'd again , which must imply force , and an army to do it . it is a proof of my lord of straffords intention , that a parliament should be summon'd to give supply , and , if not , that then it should be dissolved , and other courses should be taken ; my lord primates deposition is , that , in case of necessity , his majesty might use his prerogative , might levy what he needed , only first it was fit to try the parliament , and , if that succeeded not , then to use his prerogative as he pleases . my lord conway proves the same intention ; my lord of strafford saying to him , that if the parliament supplied not the king , his majesty would be acquitted before god and men , if he took some other course to supply himself , though against the will of his subjects ; and , it cannot be intended to be against their will , but it must be by force ; for , if it be with their will , it is voluntary . and mr. treasurer proves , that my lord would be ready to serve the king any other way ; that is , by force , by armes , or any way whatsoever . their lordships may remember his words to his majesty , that the parliament had denyed to supply him ; that they had forsaken him ; which was onely to incense his majesty against parliaments . he told my lord of bristol , in that discourse with him , that his majesty was not to suffer himself to be mastered with the frowardness and undutifulness of his people : and , if his majesty was not to suffer himself to be mastered by them , but to master them , it cannot be , but by strength of others . my lord of holland proves more fully ( and my lord of newbrough concurs with him ) that his majesty had an advantage , to supply himself other wayes , because the parliament had denyed to supply him : and there be no other wayes ( save parliament-wayes ) but extraordinary , and illegal wayes . my lord of strafford hath much laboured , to answer and qualifie the last words , but he comes short of it ; and those words are as fearful , and of as high a nature , as can be expressed by a subject , and by a counsellor to his soveraign . the first part of the said last words , are clearly proved by the testimony of my lord of northumberland and mr. treasurer , that the king had tryed his people , and was absolved from all rules of government : that he was to do all that power would admit , that he had tryed all wayes and was refused , and should be acquitted before god and men . the latter part mr. treasurer onely reaches to , that his majesty had an army in ireland , which he might imploy to reduce this kingdom : and comparing these words with the former , if the king be absolved from all rules of government , which way can that power be used , but by bringing in an army , the latter words being dependant and consequent to the former ? and , if they be compared together , and sum'd up , their lordships will be satisfied , that this was the intention of my lord of strafford , to bring an army out of ireland into this kingdom to reduce it , and that his purpose was , by a strong hand , to compel the subjects of the kingdom , to submit to an arbitrary power , and whatsoever should be imposed on them . and whereas my lord makes it a great part of his excuse , that nothing was executed , upon this counsel , we must give humble thanks to his majesty , for if his counsel might have taken place , no doubt but that had been done , which was laboured and advised to be done ; but a gracious sovereign would not take hold on those counsels , but rejected them , as to that , though so much was done on other counsels , and misinformations of my lord of strafford , as my lord of strafford will never be able to justifie . that nothing is done , is no excuse to him , it is an obligation to the kings subjects , the more to love and honor him ; but , it shews clearly , my lord of straffords intention , if it might have taken place , to have changed the lawes , to have brought an army upon us , and , by them , compel us to submit to an arbitrary power . and , so mr. whitlock concluded , that he should trouble their lordships no further at this time , having answered most of the things my lord of strafford hath insisted on , and if he hath forgotten them , he hopes he shall be holpen by some of his colleagues ; but , he supposes , it appeares clearly , that my lord of straffords intentions were , to subvert the laws , to set a division betwixt the king and his people ; and , though his lordship is pleased to make something slight of it , as not to be matter of treason ; yet , this compared with his other actions , declaring his intention and designs , it proves it not onely to be crimen laesae majestatis , but also reipublicae . mr. maynard seconded mr. whitlock and said , that something he should presume to add , my lord of strafford excuses himself , because he was not alone in the council against scotland ; thus far he was alone , the rest concluded upon a hipothetical proposition : if the demands were unreasonable , then a war was fit . but , in two propositions he was a lone ; first , that before the reasons were heard , the unreasonable demands of subjects in parliament , were a sufficient ground for the king , to put himself into a posture of war ; and secondly , that these demands were not matter of religion , but struck at the root of government . and , when he answers that point , he takes it for granted , that if he sayes they struck at the root of government , the resolution was just . in his defence , he insists upon two things , matter of excuse , and matter of weakning of the testimonies produced . for the matter of excuse , of what he said to the king in private , it was testified onely by one , who was then present , and at other times in council , viz. that there would be no happiness till there was a good agreement betwixt king and people . whence mr. maynard observed , that they think not , that all he spake is nought ; but , they produce proofes , that he did speak nought ; they think him not so unwise upon all occasions , to speak words of so high a consequence : he hath taken another course to weaken their testimonies ; and , nothing is so strong , but ( if that course be allowed that he uses ) it will take off the strength of it . mr. maynard said , he hath heard of breaking a thing to pieces , by taking to pieces , and if my lord of strafford shall take every parcel of the proof , and say this is a single testimony , this is matter of discourse ; this i speak at my table ; this in my chamber ; taking them asunder , he may answer them asunder : but if he hath in his chamber , and at counsel , and in bed , and on all occasions presumed to run so high on the liberty of the subject , and then think , that because he speaks sometimes good words , all must be paistered up ; he must give us leave to differ from him in that . the witnesses say he spake the words candidè & castè , some speak to the occasion , most say they were spoken at several times , both before and after the parliament , and if they must be applyed only to what is lawful , what need these adverbs to make it good ? truly he may say it was done cautè , it was not done castè in this cause . for that my lord hath said , divers witnesses were by , and heard not the words deposed by mr. treasurer , what argument is this ? that when divers are by , that which divers do not remember is not true ? my lord confesses himself sometimes , that witnesses do not remember all things , therefore it may be true , that something may be spoken , which witnesses remember not , else he confesses against himself which is not true . there be other things wherein the witnesses do concurr , and that my lord speaks not to , though he speaks to that which my lord of northumberland and the rest do not remember : and therefore it is no argument to say , some were by and heard not what was spoken . the sum of the case will come to this , there was a parliament sitting , he a little before casts out words , about raising money , where he must have adverbs to make it good ; he must raise money in an extraordinary way , the parliament is broken , and a necessity is made , and soldiers must be brought in , to make good these ways : now take these asunder , and my lord of strafford will make it a good action ; but as mr. maynard shewed , they conceive all my lord of strafford hath done , ended in that design ; he began it before he came over ; and though they believe his majesty designed it for scotland , they speak not what his majesty meant , but what my lord of strafford counselled , that is the thing he is charged with . and whereas his friends , and those nearest him , spoke of this fire that hath burst out , he sayes , this concerns him not ; indeed he is very unhappy , if his brother , or bosome friend must be the man that must accuse him . but noscitur ex comite qui non cognoscitur ex se. it comes out of his own mouth , and his friends expressions . when sir george ratcliffe is asked how money will be had ? he answered , we will make peace with the scots , and that is the worst of evils . surely , he that thought a peace betwixt the two nations the worst of evils , deserves not the applause that hath been given him in this place ; and if that comes to pass , this must have relation to that of which he spake , which is the levying of money by force , the king hath men , and l in his purse , and a sword by his side , and if he wants money , who would pity him ? lastly , my lord of strafford came to speak of their lordships priviledge , that if words spoken in council should be pressed , it would bring a disability on their noble lordships , to enter into those imployments ; but , that can be no excuse , to say , that he must take notice of things honourable ; and , for every thing that a man speaks at council , he must not be brought into question . it is not every thing , nor every thing that is illegal , that is brought into question ; but , if he advise to bring an army on us , to master all we have , and he must not be questioned , where then are their lordships priviledges ? and , who knows how soon there may be no difference betwixt a peer and another ? in all this defence , my lord of strafford hath not offered any defence for the scandal which he put upon the last parliament ; which , to the last breath , to the last minute of their continuance , did advise and consult of the supply of his majesty : yet , he calls this , a denying of the king ; a forsaking of the king ; an undutiful stubborness ; and , what else his high speech and eloquence pleases , to misconstrue their actions with . to that stat. e. . mr. maynard said , he shall not need to give any further answer ; for , if it be looked to , it will appear nothing to concern this case , there being great difference between words spoken with relation to action ; for , these be counsels , and if a man shall counsel the death of the king , will any man doubt whether this be treason ? surely no man will doubt it , that knowes the laws of england . the treason is not in his words , but in his wicked counsels : for ( under favor ) if it be true that he spake them , they may be called wicked ; and , that it is true , they have offered proof , and so he left it to their lordships . mr. glyn desired to add a word , it concerning the kingdom and peers ; their lordships observe , how my lord of strafford stands questioned for subverting of the laws , and for designing to introduce an arbitrary government ; the other day his design appeared , in the exercising of a tyrannical power over the persons , estates , and liberties of the kings subjects ; and , though a design was in practice , and something put in execution , yet there was something left , whereby that treason might be raised to a higher strain ; for that proofs were produced the other day , the exercise of this tyrannical power in his person , which was the stopping of the streams of justice , but , the fountain of justice was still uncorrupted , and hope left , and god be thanked we have hope still . but , this dayes work is to prove , that he ascended the throne , and , by his ill counsels , the venome he had hatcht in his own heart , he endeavored to infuse into the kings person , to make him of the same opinion with himself ; and that is to endeavor to corrupt the fountain ; but , god be thanked he hath met with a gracious king , upon whom he cannot prevaile . the words laid to his charge , are very many ; that he should tell the king , he was absolved from all rules of government , and , that he had an army in ireland , which he might employ to reduce this kingdom : the latter part of the words he hath endeavoured to answer , and the former part proved by positive witnesses , which he hath not given answer to . for the latter , that concerns the irish army , mr. glynn said , he shall not need to put their lordships in mind of any thing said ; but whereas my lord sayes , they are proved by one witness only , if your lordships revise their notes , they shall find them prov'd by many witnesses . when he was not accused by the commons , he tells sir william pennyman at york , he did intend to bring the army into england , but there was vox populi , and that 's a horrid witness . my lord cottington , one of the honourable persons present , when the words were spoken , testifies to their lordships , that he remembers my lord of strafford told the king , that after things were setled , he was bound to repair the property of the subject , and this , under favour , proves something ; for if some counsel and advice were not given , that there should be an invasion on the property , what should engage him to tell the king , he should restore it ? here my lord cottington explained himself , saying , that his meaning was , he hath often heard my lord say , the king and people would never be happy , till there was a good agreement . mr. glynn proeceded , that if their lordships please to look on my lord of straffords interrogatory , they shall find it asked his lordship , whether he did not tell the king , that he should make restitution of the subjects propertie , when the danger was over ; and why should his conscience aske such a question , unless there were counsel given , to invade the propriety of the subject ? your lordships remember the words of sir george wentworth , ( which mr. glynn said he will not repeat ) and when my lord was fixed by the words of his brother , he said , that tho he be my brother , i do not use to communicate my counsels to him , and that i am on my oath to conceal ; yet this great counsel he did impart to mr. slingsby for his own purpose , and to sir william pennyman . and so having spoken to the latter part of the words , ( the reducing of the subjects of england by the irish army ) to shew that it stands not only on a single proof , but if the whole be recollected together , there be many things concurring to the positive proof thereof . mr. glynn put their lordships in mind of the other words , to which two great witnesses concurr , and no answer at all is given , viz. that the parliament denyed supply , and the king is loose , and absolved from all rules of government ; put the other words out of doors ( as they are not ) if the king be loose from all rules of government , is he not loose to doe what he will ? and mr. glynn added , that he must needs give answer to something , that fell from my lord , concerning other words , that they were words of discourse , and what he speaks at his bed , or his table , or in private discourse , he thinks they should not be brought against him . but mr. glynn besought their lordships to remember , that if my lord speaks the words as a privy counsellor speaking to the king , concerning the subjects property , compare these words with the other extermination , and then see what the case is . the last thing in his defence , is as high as the charge it self . he is charged , that being a privy counsellor , and entrusted by the king , and a man of such eminence , he should indeavour to infuse into the kings sacred person , such dangerous counsels , tending to the destruction of the law and government , and consequently of king and subject ; and in the close , my lord of strafford put their lordships in mind , what a dangerous thing it is for one of the kings counsel , to be charged for words spoken at council-table , to speak this in such a presence before the peers , and commons of the realm ; that a privy counsellor , who ought to be clear and candid , is not to be questioned , though he infuse dangerous counsels . that it is justification of his own act , and so great , that he knows not how my lord could say greater ; and so he said , he hath no more to say , their lordships had heard the proofs and defence , and comparing them together , he doubts not but their lordships are satisfied , that the commons had just cause to do what they have done . my l of strafford desired to answer one thing , the gentleman that spake last , said , touching his revealing the kings counsels to mr. slingsby and others ; he would be loth to be charged with breaking his duty to god and the king , but where he hath power and liberty ; for as concerning the imployment of that army , the king left it wholly to him , to acquaint whom he thought fit , for the bettering of the service . but the thing that makes him rise , is , to represent to their lordships , that he hath been there constantly in a great deal of weakness and infirmity , since or of the clock , and now it is . that his speech and voice are spent , and it is not possible for him to come here to morrow ; and therefore he most humbly besought their lordships , to give him the respit of a day , to restore his litle strength it shall please god to lend him , for he is not able to speak or stand . which the committee for the commons house said , they should not oppose , if it stand with their lordships pleasure . mr. pym did only add this , that if their lordships please to observe my lord of straffords endeavours to prove divers mitigations of his words , some by mr. comptroller , and some others by my lord goring , but their lordships may observe , that the words in the charge were spoken at the committee ; the words spoken of by mr. comptroller , were at the council-table , and therefore they are not the same , nor serve they for extenuation of words spoken at another time . and so the house was adjourned , and appointed to meet again on wednesday next . the five and twentieth article . the charge . that not long after the dissolution of the said last parliament , ( viz. in the months of may and june ) he the earl of strafford , did advise the king to go on vigorously in levying the ship-money , and did procure the sheriffs of several counties to be sent for , for not levying the ship-money , divers of which were threatened by him , to be sued in the star-chamber , and afterwards by his advice , they were sued in the star-chamber , for not levying the same , and divers of his majesties loving subjects were sent for and imprisoned by his advice , for that and other illegal payments . and a great loan of one hundred thousand pounds was demanded of the city of london , and the lord mayor , and sheriffs , and aldermen of the said city , were often sent for by his advice to the council-table , to give an account of their proceedings in raising of ship-money , and furthering of that loan , and were required to certify the names of such inhabitants of the city , as were fit to lend , which they with much humility refusing to doe , he the said earl of strafford did use these , and the like speeches , viz. that they deserved to be put to fine and ransome , and that no good would be done with them , till an example were made of them , and that they were laid by the heels , and some of the aldermen hanged up . april . . mr. maynard proceeded to make good the charge of the commons of england , against the earl of strafford , touching high treason , and said , they had already brought it so high , as they must needs acknowledge they cannot goe higher ; a design being laid to introduce an arbitrary government , and counsels given to maintain that , and to introduce it by force . they can goe no higher , unless those counsels had unhappily succeeded ; but though those counsels take not effect , yet the principles whereby those counsels were given , appear still to have remained . and whereas my lord of strafford having these things proved against him by his speeches , opinions , and counsels , pretends there was no such thing done , as if the goodness of others , would excuse the badness of his counsels ; they shall shew what he did do in the succeeding articles : and in the th he proceeds , first , to advise his majesty to go on vigorously with the ship-money , he procured the sheriffs to be sent for , and sued in the star-chamber ; he sent for the mayor and aldermen , about the loan of l. and the furtherance of ship-money ; and were told by him , that they deserved to be put to fine and ransome , &c. to prove the th article . the lord treasurer of england being interrogated , what advice my lord of strafford gave , touching the levying of ship-money ? his lordship answered , that he remembers my lord of strafford did advise , that they should go vigorously and effectually on with the getting of ship-money ; he takes the time to be , when as the ship-money came in very slowly , and they were enforced to take out of these moneys that were provided , for the furnishing of the army , divers great sums to set out a fleet , which else would have staied still ; and my lord of strafford took no tice , that if it were not repaied , the army would be destitute and unfurnished , and therefore advised as formerly , that the ship-money might go on vigorously , and the other money be repaid again , for the use for which it was appointed , and it was after the breach of the last parliament . tho. wiseman sworn and interrogated , what he heard my lord of strafford say , when the aldermen of london were called to the council-table about the ship-money , and the loan , and when it was ? he answered , that for the time he cannot very well remember , and touching the loan , he is able to say little ; but about the ship-money , he doth well remember , that my lord should say , they would never do their duties well , till they were put to fine and ransome , meaning the aldermen , that were then called before their lordships , and this is as much as he can say . being asked whether there were not words of laying by the heels , and what the words were ? he answered , he should not fear to do it , my lord of strafford did say ( whether on the loan or ship-money , he is not able to remember ) you should doe well to be layed by the heels ; you shall have no good of this man till he be laid by the heels , and he ( the examinant ) supposes it was meant of my lord mayor , who was then present , ( as he remembers ) and my lord was there , and to his best remembrance , his majesty was present . earl of barkshire being sworn and interrogated , what my lord of strafford counselled the king , touching the said matter of loan ? his lordship answered , that he remembers his majesty desired to borrow a sum of money , and to give good security for it , and interest after per cent . on the sum . that the aldermen were sent for , and commanded to give in to the king , the names of those men , that were most able within their several wards , which they excusing themselves from doing ; my lord of strafford said : gentlemen , in my opinion , you may be lyable to fine and ransome , for refusing the kings command on this occasion , for not certifying the names ; and this is the effect of what he spake . sir henry garaway being sworn , and interrogated , what my lord of strafford said to the aldermen , about the ship-money and loan-money ? he answered , that as he was mayor of london in the last year , he was oftentimes commanded to attend the council-table , with the sheriffs of london ; when they came about the ship-money , there came no body ( as he conceives ) but they and himself ; but when they came concerning the loan , the whole court of aldermen came together . concerning the ship-money , he confesses he found a great difficulty of it ; he could not tell which way to turn himself to levy the money , to give the king satisfaction ; he acquainted his majesty , that there were these difficulties in it , that of two years proceeding , not one halfe of the city of london had paid , and therefore the willing men that had paid the money , thought it unequal some should pay , and some go free . and secondly , he said it was the opinion of the city of london , that a writ for ship-money , and a writ for a parliament did not agree well together , and for these reasons he found it very difficult : they were called up , and hastened both in the assessment of collection , and in respect they found every man adverse to it ; the business had not that progress , nor speedy execution it might otherwise have had , and as it had in former times . and when he had told his majesty this , it was ill taken , that he should deal so plainly , because he did discover himself clearly and freely , what was the fruit of the business and it pleased my lord of strafford , then in the presence of the king , to speak , sir , you will never do good on this man , till you have made him an example , he is too diffident ( or to this purpose ) unless you commit him , you shall do no good upon him ; this concerning the ship-money . concerning the loan-money , when they came with the aldermen together , he ( the examinant ) desired he might be call'd in singly , because he was very loath ( knowing the humour of the court of aldermen , how they stood affected ) that they should give the king a negative answer at the board , and it pleased his majesty to call him ( the examinant ) in singly , and he told his majesty in his hearing at that time , that there was no good to be done , for amongst all the aldermen , he could not yet consent to raise above or pound at the most . and then they were to bring in out of every of the several wards , the names of all the able men of the city of london , that could lend money ; wherein it was required they should set it down , what every man was fit to lend . this they altogether declined , for we thought it not fit we should rate mens purses , and he ( the examinant himself ) presented the size-cinque , the quater-tres men , and the deux-ace men , according to their qualities , but set a rate on men we did not , and desired his majesty we might be spared . hereupon my lord of strafford at that time , burst out into these words , sir , you will never do good to these citizens of london , till you have made examples of some of the aldermen ; this to his best remembrance he said , unless you hang up some of them , you will doe no good upon them . this is the substance of what he heard . being asked whether this was immediately after the breach of the parliament ? he answered , that he cannot confine himself in time ; he desired to be spared in that , but he was several times at the council-table ; but it was after the breaking of the parliament . my lord of strafford observing , that alderman garaway spake it only to his best remembrance , he was interrogated , whether he could speak it positively ? he answered , that it is a great while ago , and he did hear the words , that 's certain . being asked by my lord of strafford , whether he himself spake them ? he answered , yes my lord , your lordship did speak them . my lord desiring leave to recollect himself a little , said , he will speak with as much truth , albeit , not with so much confidence as this gentleman . and after a little respite , he began his defence as followeth . the defendant must still insist on this ground , which hitherto he hath gone upon , under their lordships good leave ; that there is nothing in this article , that can possibly convince him of high-treason , admit it all proved , as it is laid down in the charge ; he hath very little to answer , for there is little proved , the greatest part is offered on a single testimony , which as he hath heretofore mentioned , he humbly conceives , by the laws of the land , cannot be charged upon him in case of treason ; for nothing can be charged upon him in case of treason , without two lawful witnesses . for the advice my lord treasurer says he gave in case of levying ship-money , surely he advised no other ways , than as had been formerly used or years before his coming into the kingdom ; so that if it be an error , he was led into it by the practice of former times , and of wiser men than himself . besides , there was then , as he conceives , a judgement given in the exchequer-chamber , and he hath learnt always in his own practice , by reason of his own weakness of judgement , never to be wiser than his teachers , or to pretend to know more in other mens professions , than they know themselves . and therefore there being a judgement given in point of law by the judges , it was not for him to dispute what they had done , but with all humility , to submit it to better judgements than his own , so that to advise such a thing ( as it then stood ) he hopes will be excusable and pardonable in him , albeit he doth not justify himself in it , in respect of something he hath heard and learnt , since that time , and taught him likewise by wiser men than himself . and as he then followed that which was delivered by the judges , so he shall for the future , follow what he hath learnt by others , that ought to be believed , and by him credited before himself : but in the mean time he conceives it a pardonable fault , and shall never be drawn up , or put into the scale against him as treason . to the other words , testified to be spoken by him at the council-table , he answers , that he might hold the aldermen lyable or subject to fine and ransome , in case they did not submit to the kings demands ( for so on the matter , my lord of berkshire repeats the words ) truly such hath been , and shall be his ingenuity in all things concerning this business , that these words he hath already acknowledged and confest to be by him spoken ; and he confessed now he did say , that in his opinion , in a case of that great necessity , and imminent danger , which he conceived the kingdom to be in , their refusal might perchance , make them lyable to fine and ransome ; but the words , as he remembers them , were appliable not to that particular , but to another . for he says , and he says truly , the words were spoken to hasten and speed my lord mayor in the services that were commanded him ; not out of any intention or purpose , to do him hurt by further moving , or prosecuting any thing against him . he confesses , he wishes he had not spoken them , but being spoken , and spoken to that end and purpose , as high a thing as this might have been passed over , and not charged on him as a crime , but rather as an extravagant saying , which god forbid a man should be arraigned for in this kind , as he is , and a little excess of speech , he trusts by their lordships favour and goodness , may be excused , if not pardoned , at least so much pardoned , as it shall not be laid to him as treason , when it is but a hasty word , and nothing follows upon it . for the other words which my lord mayor sayes , that he the earl of strafford should say to his majesty ; sir , there will be no good done with the citizens of london ; till you have hanged some of them up ; which at first he said , was to his best remembrance , and upon recollection , he says directly and absolutely ; for my lord said , he must not make it weaker against himself than it is ; and he wishes that rule might be kept on both sides , which is to repeat the evidence to their lordships clearly and plainly as it is ; which duty he said , he had religiously observed , since the beginning of the cause , and will perform to the last , not misrecyting any thing for his advantage or disadvantage ; this being howsoever his comfort and joy , that their lordships are so wise , as not to hearken to what is repeated of the evidence , but to the evidence it self , as it is plainly and clearly represented , and that will not deceive them : and therefore my lord said , to the best of his remembrance ( and the witnesses said , no more at the first ) he spake them not , but he thinks they were spoken in so good company , before their lordships of the council-board , that it cannot but be remembred , by some of their lordships , if the words had been spoken , and by his majesty , to whom it is said they were directed . but being an equal testimony ( however in this condition , and misfortune , and affliction , it may be between this gentleman and himself ) he thinks that before these troubles befell him , he was as equally to be believed as the other ; and therefore all the difference is , one sayes it , the other denies it . my lord added , that he denyed it in his answer , and he denies it at the bar , and in truth , to his best remembrance , he never spake the words ; and it is a thing of no great moment , being a hasty word , and at the most very excusable , especially to a free spoken man , as he is , and he smarts for it , which hath further engaged him , perhaps than wiser man would have been , that hath much worse thoughts than ever he had , but he hoped it will be pardoned , and not amount to make good the charge against him , but that their lordships honor and justice will excuse it , rather than punish it , and so his lordship said , he would say no more to it . mr. maynard made reply thereunto , in substance as followeth . the committee shall need to to say little to this answer of my lord of strafford , for whereas he sayes nothing of high treason is proved , their lordships will be pleased to remember , how oft this hath been answered ; for if their lordships will look back , to what they have proved from the beginning : they charge not this as a particular treason , but having charged him with a design to subvert the fundamental laws ; it appears he threatened it , that the kings little finger should be heavier than the loins of the law ; they have shewed what he did in ireland , how he did not only threaten , but gave sentence of death on one for words , how there he hanged another ; it appears what a jurisdiction he erected against law , and wayes were taken to maintain them ; how soldiers were forced on mens houses against their wills ; and what insolency they committed , and that must not be questioned when it is propounded ; when he comes into england , their lordships hear what counsels he gives , which compared with the plots he laid , there is reason to think , that these words proceeding from my lord of strafford , that men should be fined and ransomed , hanged up , and laid by the heels , comes not out of suddain passion , but rise from those principles and resolutions that were in him , to do all things according to his will and pleasure , against law. they beseech their lordships , these may not pass as hasty words , when they appear to be suitable and conformable to actions and counsels preceding for many years , and not yet laid down by him , for ought can be discerned . the singleness of the testimony hath been often objected , and as often answered , but this is no single testimony ; my lord treasure speaks of his advice to go on vigorously with ship-money ; others prove fine and ransome , and hanging up , threatened , which have all concurred to the general charge , being several circumstances proved by several witnesses . but whereas my lord thinks to excuse himself , because there was a judgement in the exchequer-chamber ; god be thanked , it appears to be a judgement against law ; and my lord of strafford spake these words after the king offered to lay down the ship-money , for it was after the parliament ; but there was never any judgement , that a man might be hanged in such a case , nor be fined and ransomed for not certifying in matter of loan ; my lord of strafford knows as well as any man , that it is against law , himself having had a great hand in the petition of right . mr. glyn desired he might observe one thing , that fell from my lord of strafford , not at this time only , but at several times ; that it is hard he should for words be questioned as high treason , being a word spoken , and no ill effect of it ; their lordships may be pleased to call to mind , that for words spoken concerning treading on his toe , he prosecuted so far as to life , and yet they were spoken as accidentally as these , and not of less consequence , and nothing came of them ; and yet he procured a sentence of death against the speaker , but here he extenuates it , and must not be charged with words . and so the th article was concluded . the six and twentieth article . the charge , . that the said earl by his wicked counsels , having brought his majesty into excessive charge , without any just cause , he did in the month of july last ( for the support of the said great charges ) counsel and approve two dangerous and wicked projects , viz. to seize upon the bullion , and the money in the mint . and to imbase his majesties coyn with the mixtures of brass . and accordingly he procured one hundred and l. which was then in the mint , and belonging to divers merchants , strangers , and others to be seized on , and stayed to his majesties use . and when divers merchants of london , owners of the said bullion and money , came to his house , to let him under stand the great mischief that course would produce here , and in other parts , and what prejudice it would be to the kingdom , by discrediting the mint , and hindring the importation of bullion : he the said earl told them , that the city of london dealt undutifully and unthankfully with his majesty ; and that they were more ready to help the rebels , than to help his majesty : and that if any hurt came to them , they may thank themselves ; and that it was the course of other princes , to make use of such moneys to serve their occasions . and when in the same month of july , the officers of his majesties mint came to him , and gave him divers reasons against the imbasing the said money ; he told them that the french king did use to send commissaries of horse , with commission to search into mens estates , and to peruse their accounts , that so they may know what to levy of them by force , which they did accordingly levy ; and turning to the lord cottington , then present , said , that this was a point worthy of his lordships consideration , meaning this course of the french king , to raise moneys by force , was a point worthy of his lordships consideration , mr. maynard proceeded to open the th article , and observed , that they had shewed formerly , how my lord of strafford had laboured a disaffection betwixt his majesty and his people : now they come to shew , that his majesty being put to extreame charges , by the advice of my lord of strafford ; my lord adds his advice , for seising money in the mint , and for that of the base coyn , or black money ; and , that when some attended my lord of strafford about it , to shew to him the danger and ill consequence , that might arise from it , my lord of strafford tells them , the city had dealt undutifully and unthankfully with his majesty , and were more ready to help the rebels than his majesty ; and , they may thank themselves ; and , it was the course of other princes , to make use of such monies . and , when the master of the mynts gave reasons against it , my lord said , the french king uses to send commissaries to mens shops , and to look into the accompts and books of men , to see and peruse their estates , that they might raise and levy it by force : and , turning to a noble lord by him , he said , that was a point worthy of his lordships consideration . to prove the words spoken , about seising the money in the mint , robert edwards was sworn , and examined , what he heard my lord of strafford say , when he attended him , about the money seized in the mynt ? he answered , that he went to his lordship about the danger , that the company of merchant-adventurers were in , in regard their estates were beyond sea , giving his lordship to understand the danger , in regard so much money was taken out of the tower , being , as he remembers , on saturday night . they went on monday morning , and desired my lord to speak to his majesty , that the money might be restored again , that their means might not be seized ; for , some strangers had threatned , they would signifie to their principal , how their money was taken from them , and would seek for a recompence again , by the means they had beyond sea : and , my lord made answer again to him , and diverse others that were there , that if they fared amiss , they might thank themselves , for if they went on in that manner , they were like to find it themselves ; and that they should have the damage of it , if they did look to it no better . and withal he said , that though they think it is a strange business here , yet beyond sea it is not so , but on command men have their goods taken . this was the substance , as he remembers , of what he said to them . being asked , what my lord of strafford said , touching the city of london ? he answered , that he said , they did deal very unthankfully and undutifully , for there was but l. for ship-money that was his majesties due , and they denyed the payment of that ; and did more to maintain the rebels , than they did to maintain his majesty . being bid repeat his words . he said , that they came at first to be humble suitors to his lordship , to be a meanes to his majesty , that the money taken from the tower , might be restored again ; for , the merchants adventurers estates beyond sea , were in great danger , in regard there were some strangers threatned , to write to their principals , to stay their estates there , for the money stayed in the tower : whereupon my lord made answer , that if they did speed amiss , they might thank themselves , for they are more ready to hold with rebels , then they were to give his majesty his due , which was l. for ship-money . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) where he spake them ? and , whether he was not then sick ? he answered , it was in his chamber : and my lord did sit in his chair , and he ( the examinant ) stood hard by him , with four or five more , and he conceives my lord was sick at that time . being asked , on like motion , whether he did not tell them he was sick , and could not go to the king at that time ? he answered , that he remembers not that my lord said , he could not go to the king ; but , he said , he knew nothing of it till that morning , to his ( the examinants ) remembrance . anthony palmer sworn , and interrogated , what my lord of strafford said to him , concerning the mixt money ? he answered , that my lord of strafford had some discourse with him , and the rest of his fellow officers , concerning base money ; and , upon the questioning of it , they gave him their reasons against it , and the insufficiency of it to do any thing , and said so much , as they conceived my lord was disswaded from going any further in it : upon this , he afterwards shewed them a letter , drawn out of his pocket , which , as he said , was sent him out of france , and in the french tongue ; and , because he ( the examinant ) did not understand the french tongue , he read it in english to this effect , so far as the best of his memory will hold ; that the king of france , or the french king , had appointed certain officers of his , to go and take view of mens books of accompt and estates , by that means to see what they were worth , and to know what the king might demand of them ; and , if they were not willing to pay it , there would be a force upon them to pay it . this , to the best of his remembrance , is that my lord did deliver . being asked , whether my lord of strafford did not speak words to this effect , that if his majesty should do so , he should have the examples of others , or to that purpose ? he answered , something he set forth to this effect , but the very words he cannot express , but it was to that purpose ; that he had received letters , that the king of france had sent officers , that took view of mens books and accompts , to raise to himself some moneys ( if they were not willing ) by constraint , and withal some other speeches did fall from him to this purpose , but , the very words he cannot speak , that it was an example , or might be an example , to do the like in england . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) where this was spoken ? he answered , it was in my lords own house in leister-fields , he thinks , and there were present three more , sir william parkhurst , mr. gogan , and himself , and my lord cottington was also there . henry gogan sworn and interrogated , what he heard my lord of strafford say , when he attended him , about the abusing of the coyn ? he answered , that after the coyning of the base money was thought on , there were queries made , and they were to give an answer the next day about the making of it ; that was , about the expedition , and what it would cost , and two other particulars , the paper sir william parkhurst hath . but , some of them spoke against the making of the money , mr. palmer and the rest shewed the inconvenience of it ; and then my lord pull'd out a letter in french , and read it in english , to this purpose ; that the king of france raised money by force , sending commissaries of horse to look into their books and estates , and levy money accordingly ; and , did turn about to my lord cottington , and said , my lord , this is worthy your consideration or hearing , or words to that purpose . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) where it was spoken ? he answered , it was spoken at my lords house in the fields , in the presence of sir william parkhurst , lord cottington , mr. palmer , and himself . sir william parkhurst being sworn , and interrogated , what my lord of strafford said , when he and the rest attended him about the copper money ? he answered , that they were sent for ; and , the first question they were asked , was , what sorts of money were made in queen elizabeths time of copper , for the kingdom of ireland ? they told him what they were , and that they could produce the indentures and circumstances of making those monyes ; and they had diverse discourses of the matter of money , and it was resolved into certain queries that they should consider of , which he the examinant was never formerly examined of , and the papers are not here , neither was he warned hither to day . and , in the discourse of these moneys , my lord of strafford did produce a letter written in french , as newes lately received from thence , and , doubting whether they understood french or no , he englished it , in these kinds of words , or thus much in substance , that the french king had lately sent certain commissaries , or commissioners , into diverse parts of france , there to take and peruse the accompts of merchants , and the books of mens estates , whereby they might know what estates they had , and this is the substance of what he can say , and further he heard him not say . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) who was there present ? he answered , my lord of strafford , my lord cottington , mr. palmer , mr. gogan , and himself . being asked , on the like motion , whether he heard my lord of strafford offer to my lord cottington , that this was worthy his consideration or notice ? he answered , that he did not hear it . being asked , whether he said , that if the king should do so , he should follow the example of other princes ? he answered , no. sir ralph freeman being asked , what words my lord of strafford spake concerning copper money , if it were refused to be taken ? he answered , that he was not there at the first meeting , but at the private council , his majesty being present , there was a debate about paying copper-money , and he ( the examinant ) answering , that they would not work , if they were paid in copper money : my lord of strafford replied , you know what course to take with them , you may send them to the house of correction ; this is all he heard . mr. maynard desired tho. skinners examination might be read , as to the matter which mr. stewart was examined to , he being seen at westminster that morning , and acknowledged , that he was to be examined here as a witness , and it seems could not get in , or is otherwise kept away . my lord of strafford desired , they might reserve the advantage of him , and he would give way to it . mr. maynard answered , that when he sayes a witness may be kept away , it is not that he is kept away , for he is here ; but , if a witness hath been examined , and doth not come , his examinations may be read , for it is possible a witness may be kept away , though he be not sick . george henley being sworn , and interrogated , whether he saw skinner this morning at westminster ? he answered , he saw him in the pallace-yard , and he told him the examinant , that he ( the said skinner ) was to be here as a witness . my lord of strafford desiring that liberty for him to cross-examine him might be reserved , and that being granted , the examinations were read . the examination of tho. skinner gent. taken the th . ian. . to the interrogatory he saith , that he attended mr. edwards and other merchants-adventurers to the lord-lieutenant , a little after the stay of the money and bullion in the mynt , and the said merchants represented divers inconveniences to his lordship which might arise from the stay thereof ; and alleadged , that it would occasion a seisure of the english merchants beyond the seas . whereupon his lordship said , he did not know of the seisure until that morning ; but , if any inconvenience happen , they may thank themselves : and his lordship further said , that though this act might seem strange in england , it was no newes in other countries ; where princes made use of such means to serve their occasions ; and his lordship did very much tax and blame the city of london , saying , they dealt unworthily with his majesty , in refusing to pay the l. of ship-money , which was his due ; and that they were more ready to hold with rebels than with his majesty ; and , that they dealt unthankfully with his majesty , in not relieving him in his great necessities . and so mr. maynard concluded this article , the words charged being proved , and my lord of straffords answer was expected . after a small time given him to recollect his notes , my lord of strafford made his defence , in substance as followeth , that he is to give his defence to the th article , the first part whereof was , that he should counsel and approve two dangerous and wicked projects . first , to seize on the bullion and money in the mint . secondly , to debase the coyn with mixture of brass . that he hath , in his answer , denied either the counselling , or the approving of these projects , as they call them ; and , for that part , which indeed would be the principal thing in the charge , if it were proved , there is no offer of any proof at all , that is , concerning his approving , counselling , or devising those projects . to this he answereth , it will appear in their own proof , he ( the defendant did not counsel the seising of the money , for mr. edwards acknowledges , when they came to acquaint him with the business , he professed he knew nothing of it ; nor did he , being then sick , and unfit for this matter . and , mr. skinner sayes , he ( my lord of strafford ) told them , that he knew nothing of the seizure of that money ; so that there is no proof against him : and , the proof brought , acquits him , as to that . for the debasing of the coyn , mr. palmer sayes , that he and the rest of the officers giving reasons against it , he ( my lord of strafford ) gave it over ; he remembers very well , there was some speech about the copper coyn ; and , that information was to be given , what queen elizabeth had done in the like case : and , he remembers too , that it was given over : also , that he was one of the committee , to take information of the reasons for it , and against it ; and , to report : and , further then that , he medled not with it . for the rest of the charge , in telling the city , they dealt undutifully with his majesty , &c. he conceives the proofs are full in the point , and fuller then any thing of the charge since the trial began . and , it is true , he did not at that time think the city had dealt thankfully with his majesty , they having received so many favours from him , and he residing amongst them , should refuse the loane of l. on good security given ; and , it might very well be ( as he thinks he did ) at that time , he might say so ; and , if he spake it out of overmuch sence towards his majesty , and his service , surely he doth not conceive it to be any great crime , to say , they dealt undutifully with the king : but , whatsoever it was , he is sure he is ready to amend it , and to be of another opinion ; for , he remembers very well , and , he thinks many of their lordships will call it to mind , that when upon the return of diverse noble persons to york , he understood that the city of london had lent the king l. he then said , that he was glad for his part , extreamly glad of it ; and , all that was past formerly , was now fully satisfied , as to him , and he should be ready to serve them with his life for it , as long as he lived ; and this he spake in the great council of the peers at york , and that he would be as ready to serve the city of london , as any poor gentleman in the kingdom , and so he sayes again , he will : and if at that time , or other time , he was so sensible of the service of his master , as not to think it well done of them , to refuse so small a curtesie , and exprest something that might have been spared : men oftentimes offend with the tongue , when they offend not with the heart ; and , he hopes this can be no such bloody crime , it arguing him rather to be innocent from doing any great evil , when words are so often charged on him , rather than doing . but , there are some things not proved , that perhaps will be mentioned , because they be singly spoken of , but not doubly proved . the next charge is a letter , that he should shew , about the king of france appointing officers to take accompts , and to view mens books , and that it might be an example for us here . which words he doth absolutely deny . he never spake them . he never thought them : and mr. palmer only speaks it ; but sayes , the very words he cannot express : and , if he cannot ( the defendant ) appeales to their lordships , whether he should be condemned for words which cannot be exprest ? and he hopes it will be of very little force with their lordships , when it is so uncertainly delivered . but , however , it is a single testimony , none of the other witnesses testifying the words , as he conceives . sir william parkhurst denies expresly , that he heard them . mr. gogan is a single testimony , in saying , what my lord of strafford should say to my lord cottington , that they might be worthy of his lordships consideration ; and sir william parkhurst denies that he heard them . but , it will be necessary for him , to let their lordships know clearly and plainly , what this great matter was concerning the french letter , for he trusts my lord cottington would remember it , and my lord treasurer too , if need were ; but this is no way in his charge , and therefore he shall not insist in the proof of it . his lordship having the honor to be of the foraign committee , my lord of leicester was pleased to send weekly letters , to divers of their lordships , and , among the rest , he received one , being in the nature of a gazette : in which letter , nothing was mentioned of commissaries of horse ; but , it was mentioned , that the cardinal had given direction to certain commissioners , to go into the houses of divers merchants , not over the kingdom , but at paris , and inform themselves by their books of accompt , what estates they had , that they might demand supply . this letter , he sayes , he read , with this clause , you may see what is done in other places ; but , god be thanked you have so pious and gracious a king , that he thinks on none of these things ; he read it to them as a gazette , a foolish idle letter , and no more . my lord cottington being interrogated touching the letter , &c. he professes that he knew nothing of such a letter , but because he would remember it , he spake with sir william parkhurst , and mr. palmer , and some others , and they told him , that when my lord was reading the letter , he was writing in another room ; and asking , why it was said he was present ? they told him then , that they thought gogan had said so , when there was no such matter ; for , he having seen his name in the printed book , he hath been careful to inform himself , what kind of letter it was , for he profest to their lordships , he remembred not the letter , nor the discourse , and asking sir william parkhurst and the rest , why it was said , such words were spoken to him by my lord of strafford ? they say , they had been examined upon it , and had denyed it . for sir ralph freeman's deposition , that my lord of strafford should say , that if the poor men that work on the money should refuse to work , they might be sent to the house of correction ; that he conceives he might say without offence , but it is no part of his charge . my lord cottington being asked ( on mr. glyns motion ) whether he had heard of such a letter ? he professed , to his remembrance he never heard of the letter . whence mr. maynard inferred , there be others that speak to that , therefore there may be something that is not remembred . and so my lord of strafford concluded , that he had told their lordships clearly and plainly what is proved , what the things were , and as they were ; and he trusts nothing is in his actions , but such as may admit of a noble and favourable construction : and so there is no more for him to answer to this article , but only to say , that under the favour of these gentlemen , nothing can incline one way or other , to be an accusation of high-treason . to which mr. maynard made a reply in substance as followeth . that he should not hold their lordships long in reply to this ; my lord denies the counselling and approving the matter of seizing the mynt , and debasing the coyn , and a witness produced , sayes , my lord knew nothing of it ; that they can press no farther , but that is no justification to my lord strafford , to retort such words concerning the great city of this kingdom , on so small an occasion , as their desire to have their money discharged . it was a grievous thing , and is not to be slighted ; that their estates being beyond sea , my lord of strafford should make so little of it . but my lord answers nothing to these words , that the city of london was more ready to help the rebels , than to help the king , and he doth well not to do it , for whosoever doth help a rebel , is of the same condition with the rebel . for the matter of the letter , it is of no great importance whether it be so or no ? but the matter is , what speeches were used ? my lord sayes , the speeches are proved by only one witness ; but the truth is , one witness positively swears one part , and another the other part ; but both agree , that my lord cottington was there , though sir william parkhurst doth not remember it . mr. whitlock added , that my lord of strafford is pleased to mention a letter from an honouable person , my lord of leicester , and now he observes , it was a gazette , and no letter at all from my lord of leicester . but my lord of strafford desired , he might not be mistaken , he being very tender to have it laid on him , that he should in any thing speak untruth , or contradict himself . their lordships know , the letters sent familiarly every week from my lord of leicesters secretary , as news to the forreign committee , are only in the nature of a gazette , and so he intended to open it . mr. strowd added , there is something in the tract of this article that sticks near to me , and i cannot let it pass ; whereas my lord sayes , words are only laid to his charge , which argues his innocency in fact , in that he hath been sparing in doing , whatsoever his language is ; first , the laws are clear , that words may be treason , and to every mans reason it sounds thus far , that words in consequence may go beyond some actions ; and words of the highest nature he hath used , all trenching deeper on us than some acts might have done : to counsel his majesty in things of that consequence , it touches not only on the safety of his majesties crown , but also on the liberty of his people , and may go beyond force ; for if my lord of strafford had brought in his irish by force , we might have withstood them by force . but when he goes to the ear of a pious prince , and insinuates that we know not of , and brings a desolation on a kingdom , who shall repell such language , when force may repell forces ? and surely had he plotted and devised against his majesty , by any one ( which god forbid he should , or that his majesty should be in that danger ) the pretence of a prince might have daunted a traitor , that he could not have done the work ; yet had he done it ( which god forbid ) a prince , may dye with fair reputation to posterity ; but when he shall inspire a prince in his ear , and provoke tyrannical carriage to his subjects , he may abuse a good prince , but how he may leave him to posterity , i leave to your lordships . but my lord stays not singly in counsel and advice , but something was done upon it . i appeal to your lordships , when proof shall be brought in the case ; and first , consider the misery that england is now in , what could have been done more to have made us miserable , but absolute desolation ? the aldermen were committed that very day , and though it cannot be proved , he gave the immediate counsel , yet he gave the counsel that hath been proved , and that day four of them were committed ; and this the aldermen are ready to prove . sir henry garaway interrogated , whether any of the aldermen were committed ? he answered , that he shall not need to answer that ; for my lord will confess it , there were four aldermen committed , alderman rainston , alderman somes , alderman geere , alderman atkins , and it was the same day they were there , to give an account of the able men , and the loan of l. their answer not giving satisfaction , they were committed the same day to several prisons ; by what order or direction he knows not . so mr. glyn desired their lordships , to observe the words proved against him , that no good will be done on them , till they were laid by the heels , which my lord sayes , produced no effect ; yet that very day four were laid by the heels , and it rests upon their lordships judgements , by whose advice . and mr. strowde concluded , that my lord of straffords words and actions agree in this kingdom , and the miseries of this kingdom , do agree with his words and actions . and so the th article was concluded . the seven and twentieth article . the charge , that in or about the month of august last , he was made lieutenant-general of all his majesties ●orces in the north , prepared against the scots ; and being at york , did then in the month of september , by his own authority , and without any lawful warrant , impose a tax on his majesties subjects in the county of york of eight pence per diem , for maintainance of every soldier of the trained-bands of that county ; which sums of money he caused to be levied by force . and to the end to compel his majesties subjects , out of fear and terror , to yield to the payment of the same ; he did declare , that he would commit them that refused the payment thereof ; and the soldiers should be satisfied out of their estates ; and they that refused it , were in very little better condition , than of high treason . mr. maynard proceeded to the the article ; that the earl of strafford imposed a tax on his majesties subjects , in the county of york , of d. per diem , for the maintainance of every soldier of the trained band of that county , causing it to be levied by force , threatening them that refused with commitment , and that they that did not pay the soldiers , should be satisfied out of their goods , and they were in little better case , than the case of high treason , that refused to pay . the state of their proofs will stand thus ; there were three levies ; first , a months contribution , and that was for the general ; the second , a contribution for a fornight , and that was for two particular regiments or companies ; a third , for a month more , so it was for ten weeks in the whole . my lord of strafford pretends two things in his answer for his excuse . first , that it was upon a petition from the country ; to that we say this , the country did petition his majesty , offering their endeavour , in that petition they likewise desire a parliament for redress of grievances , with which petition some principal gentlemen of the countrey , attended my lord of strafford , desiring his assistance ; he likes well the clause concerning the petitioners endeavours , but not that touching the parliament ; and therefore he would not deliver it : though he said , it would fall out , there would be a parliament , his majesty having resolved it , but he likes not that they should petition it . they refusing to retract from their petition , he doth in the name of some of his lordships friends , and dependants , and recusants , prefer another petition , but it was when the gentlemen of the countrey were gone , and so there was no consent of the countrey . the other thing he pretends is , that the lords of the great council , had consented to that imposition , which we say is not true , there was no such consent or direction ; yet this he said , both in the countrey , and in his answer , and their lordships best know , that the lords of the great council did not give that direction , the first thing offered , was the petition first intended , which sir hugh cholmley , and sir philip stapleton affirming on oath , to be the true petition , their hands being to it amongst others , was read , being in effect . the humble petition of the gentlemen of the county york . whereas your majesty imparted to us the danger , by the incursions of the scots , and the necessity of continuing the trained-bands of this county in entertainment for two months , and raising money so long , and did royally assure us , that the wardships of such as dyed in this imployment , should be freed , and one third part of the trained-bands should be abated , for which we acknowledge our bounden thankfulness , in ready obedience of your majesties command , we have represented to your majesty our present condition , and in the entrance of the business , we found a great impediment and discouragement , by certain warrants produced for levying money , towards this new service , wherein in the first place , we cannot omit to let your majesty know , the great grief we have , in that the county is there charged with disaffection and backwardness therein , which as we are confident , we never were guilty of , so we were in good hope , your majesty had received no such impression of us . and in the next place , we find our selves much grieved , that the execution of such warrants , which we conceive illegal , should be concluded and urged on peril of life ; notwithstanding the strictness of which warrants , we find divers parts of the county have not been able to pay the money demanded , and from thence , and the attestation of divers gentlemen , we are assured the scarcity of money is such , that it is diabled from satisfying your expectation therein ; and that your majesty may know it is no pretence , but a real poverty ; we are bold to represent the charges , viz. of ship-money . vast expences the last year in military affairs . the billeting and insolency of soldiers this summer , part of the time on the credit of the county . decay of trade . stop of markets . charge of carriages , especially in harvest , by which means , not only the common people , but most of the gentry , by the failing of rents , are much impoverished : and therefore we petition your majesty , you will accept our endeavour , to prevail with the countrey to raise so much money , as will pay the county one whole month , from their first rising , within which time , ( as is generally reported ) your majesty hath commanded the attendance of the peers , to consult for the safety of the kingdom , and pray the trained-bands may be continued in the villages , where they are quartered , except your occasions otherwise require it ; and in the interim , for the redress of these grievances , and security of your kingdom , your majesty will please , to declare your pleasure for summoning the high court of parliament , &c. to prove that my lord of strafford refused to deliver this petition , and that another was framed , to which the countrey consented not . sir hugh cholmley was sworn and interrogated , whether this petition was shewed my lord of strafford , and whether he was not unwilling to deliver it , and why ? he answered , that this petition was shewed to my lord of strafford , in the name of the gentlemen that had subscribed it , and it was delivered to him by my lord wharton , and of those gentlemen that subscribed their hands , many were gone out of town , and desired that those that staid in town , might attend my lord wharton , and intreat him to deliver it to my lord of strafford , and when it was delivered , my lord of strafford took only exception ( at least he the examinant ) is sure that was the chief exception ) because they petitioned for a parliament ; and said , that leaving out that clause , he would joyn with him in the petition . being asked what he knew of another petition framed afterwards ? he answered , that at that time no other petition was framed , by the gentry of the countrey , this petition being rejected ; for my lord of strafford went and delivered some message to the king ( he thinks for the maintaining of the trained-bands a month ) and many of them that did subscribe to the petition not consenting to it , met together , intending to make a petition and protestation against it , and did so ; intending to deliver it to his majesty , but it was not delivered . being asked what moneys were levied , by whose warrants , and for what time ? he answered , that he can say nothing to the levying of money , but in general , he thinks money was levied . sir henry cholmley sworn and interrogated , what my lord of strafford said concerning money ? he answered , that he had the honor to be one of the colonels of the trained-bands , and received command from my lord of strafford , being lieutenant-general of the army , to give account in what state his ( the examinants ) regiment stood ? of what strength it was , and how provided of money ? that he repaired to his lordship , and told him , that notwithstanding the warrants sent out , they came not to him , and unless he had money shortly , the regiment would disband ; that his lordship answered him , he would send a levy on the goods of those that refused . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) whether he did so send ? he answered , no ; that he knows of . sir iohn hotham sworn and interrogated , what he knew touching the petition , and my lord of straffords rejecting it ? he answered , that concerning the petition , it is true , that being to meet together in the afternoon at the common hall , they did first consult , what to represent to my lord. but when they came there , my lord refused , and made doubt of delivering the petition , unless they would put out the clause , concerning the parliament , and some thought it fit to preferr it without it . some of the gentlemen that had petitioned , went out , and delivered in something to the king , but what it was he knows not . and for levying of the money , he can say nothing to it ; warrants were sent out by the vice-president , but how far my lord was interested in it , he can say nothing at all . sir philip stapleton sworn and interrogated , as to the delivering of the petition . he answered , that for the petition , he can say his countrey-men being sent for to york by the king , and intimation given , that they should keep their trained-bands for two months , they desired time to give an answer , which was allowed them as they desired , till the next day . they met that night , and though my lord-lieutenant desired to meet with them , they met first by themselves , and drew this petition ; for my lord being lord lieutenant-general , and a privy-counsellor , they should not have been so free to deliver their opinions , though he ( the examinant ) thinks some of them should have been free enough . they drew the petition , and he thinks there was hands to it , and being delivered to my lord-lieutenant , he took exception , because it concluded with desire of a parliament , and told them , if they would leave out that clause , he would deliver it , if not , he would not , and after long discourse ( wherein he shewed much eloquence ) most of them continued their resolution to stand to that petition , and many went out of town and left it , without making question but it should be delivered to his majesty . my lord after put it to vote , whereof there were many papists , and on the vote delivered an answer , what , he ( the examinant ) doth not know , for he staid behind to draw another petition , and an humble protestation to his majesty , that this petition was the answer of the countrey . lord wharton being sworn and examined to the point of the petition ? his lordship answered , that this was unexpected to him , for he heard not of it from the committee , till he came into the place , but he can perfectly speak to it , having a little interest in it , himself being one of them who subscribed it ; that on saturday in the afternoon , being appointed to attend my lord of strafford touching this business ( for most of the gentlemen desiring to be at home ) on a suddain went out of town , and desired him with some others , to deliver this petition to my lord , by his own hand , to be delivered to the king , he did so , and accordingly desired my lord to deliver it in the name of the gentlemen , that had set their hands to it , many being likewise with him on that occasion ; that my lord of strafford took exception to the clause for a parliament , and said , that if they would put that out , he would joyn in the rest of the petition . divers of the gentlemen that were there ( there being not many that had set their hands ) would not goe back from that , which with so much humility and reason , they thought was desired ; thereupon my lord would not deliver it , and went to the king. but they that thought not fit to have the petition altered , thought not fit to go with him to the king ; and what he said , he ( the examinant ) knows not . sir william pennyman being sworn and interrogated , whether a warrant now shewed him , was not under his hand and seal ? he confessed it was his hand and seal . and that being desired to be read , sir william pennyman offered to their lordships , that he presumes he comes to be a witness against my lord of strafford , not himself , and referred it to their lordships , whether he should answer any thing against himself , this having an oblique aspect on himself ; but if their lordships will require him , he will submit . but mr. maynard upon opening of the matter , shewing that they urge it only , as grounded on my lord of strafford's command for levying of moneys . it was read , being to this effect . to the constable of sergeant-major yaworthe's company . whereas the lord-lieutenant-general of his majesties army , by his majesties command , sent forth warrants to the constable of this weapontake of longborough , for collecting and paying the soldiers of my regiment , six weeks pay , to be delivered from my hands , which is not yet received from , &c. these are therefore once more in his majesties name , to will and require you forthwith , to pay , or cause to be paid to the said sergeant-major , the several rates and proportions , both of the first and second contribution , assessed on your-town , &c. and if any person or persons shall refuse so to do , you are instantly on receit hereof , to bring him or them , &c. to serve in their own persons , for the defence of this county , as the necessity of this cause requires ; and hereof , &c. fail not octob. . sir william pennyman being asked , whether the warrant was grounded on a former command of my lord of strafford ? he answered , that he cannot directly speak to that , he will not charge his memory with it ; for , he thinks , the first warrant was issued by the vice-president , and , whether any was issued by my lord of straffords direction , he cannot answer precisely , but he conceives there was ; and , he hath a confused notion in his head , but he cannot particularly and distinctly remember it . being asked , whether he knew any deputy-lieutenants were drawn to issue a warrant , to levy money on the country on this ground , that the lords of the great council had consented to it ? he answered , that he conceives they were summoned thither together , and on this occasion ; when the trayned-bands were disbanded , it was thought fit the frontier-regiments , viz. his ( the examinants ) and sir thomas danbies , should be continued , but he ( the examinant ) conceiving it unreasonable and unequal , that they should continue at their own charge , and the rest not tributary to them ; and , at least , they not being ordered to march successively to relieve them ; he ( the examinant ) complained thereof to my lord of strafford , they were thereupon sent for , and an order was made , to which he ( the examinant ) refers himself . being asked , whether it was not to this effect , whether those that would not pay their money , should serve in person ? he answered , sure he believes it was , for his warrant is a relative warrant to that other . being asked , on what grounds the deputy lieutenants were induced , to make such an order ? and , whether it was not on an allegation , that the lords of the great council had consented , or commanded , it should be done ? he answered , that he presumes it is matter of record , if a man may say so , for the warrant will speak : but , he presumes there was some such thing spoken by my lord of strafford , that he had acquainted his majesty with it , or the greatest counsel , or to that effect , and that induced them to put that into the preamble of the order . being prest to speak his knowledge , he answered , that truely he verily believes it was so . being prest again to speak his knowledge positively . he answered , that he doth very confidently and assuredly believe it is so , but he doth not particularly remember it , for it is a great while since he saw that warrant : but , it is matter of record , and if he sees a copy of the warrant , he shall let their lordships know , whether it be a true copy . being prest further to answer , upon what ground it was made ? and , whether upon an allegation of a consent , of the lords of the great council ? he answered , that he cannot further answer than before : he doth very confidently believe it to be so ; for , he doth remember , my lord of strafford told them , he had acquainted the kings majesty , or the lords of the great council , which induced them to put them into the preamble of the order . being yet urged to answer categorically . he answered , that he verily believes my lord did so ; and that under favour reaches almost to a knowledge , the thing is so notorious , that the thing it self may be known . being required to speak his knowledge , whether my lord of strafford told them , the lords had commanded , or consented to it ? he answered , when that was spoken of , he was out of the room , and it was drawn by mr. rockley a deputy lieutenant ; but , mr. rockley told him my lord did say so . being yet again prest to a positive answer ( mr. maynard observing to their lordships , that when a gentleman is brought upon his oath in a cause of this consequence , this dalliance is not to be admitted . ) he answered , that he answer'd as clearly as can be , and the gentlemen will not press him beyond his knowledge ; he sayes , he doth confidently believe it , but , under favour he was not at that time in the room , but mr. rockley told him , my lord of strafford had acquainted the king and the great council . mr. maynard observing , that now he speaks less then before ; and desired he might be interrogated , whether at that time , or at any other time , my lord of strafford told him , the lords of the great council had assented to this levy . which being proposed ; he answered , he doth confidently believe my lord did it ; it may be proved by a great many others ; but he is confident of this , as of any thing in the world , that my lord did tell them , when they went to draw the warrant , that my lord had acquainted the lords of the great council , and his majesty , and that he did it by their consent ; and , therefore they put it into the preamble of their order . sir hen. griffin sworn and interrogated , whether my lord of strafford said , the lords of the great council had consented to the levying of money ? he answered , he heard my lord say so indeed ( or else they had not set their hands to the order ) that he had direction from the great council , to levy money for sir william pennyman , and sir tho. danbies regiments . being interrogated , in what manner the money was to be levyed ? he answered , that he doth not know in what manner . being asked ( on my lord of clares motion ) what he meant by this direction ? he answered , that there was an order made from all them that were deputy-lieutenants , and my lord of strafford as one ; and this is the order concerning the levying of money for the two regiments . being asked ( on mr. glyns motion ) whether my lord of strafford had not directed the money to be levied in manner as is exprest in the order ? he answered , that to his best remembrance , my lord did say so , he must confess . being asked , whether in case any refused to pay this money , they were not to be compelled to serve in person ? he answered , there was such a clause in the order , to his best remembrance . mr. robert strickland sworn , and interrogated , whether my lord of strafford said , the great council had directed warrants should be issued for the levying of money ? he answered , yes . it cannot be deny'd : he ( the examinant ) gave a copy of that order , when the last commissioners were at rippon ; and he saw a gentleman even now behind him , that had a copy of the order and warrant , and it is declared , that it was done by the great council of the peers . sir iohn burroughes sworn and interrogated , whether he knew of any such vvarrant , or order , for levying money for those two regiments ? he humbly intreated , that he might have their lordships direction , before he answered the question ; for , their lordships know very well , that , by his majesties command , he was appointed to be clerk or register of the great council : moreover , he conceives , that ( by his duty , all orders and resolutions of the house , especially those that concerned third parties , without asking leave ) he was to deliver to the parties , if they required them : but , for such debates and arguments , as were used in the great council , to and again , between their lordships , he humbly intreated their lordships direction , vvhether he should publish any thing of them or no ? and , upon their lordships order , he shall clearly , and with all integrity , deliver the truth . being permitted by their lordships , to speak to the questions propounded . he proceeded , and said , that he hath very good cause to remember , that upon the th of october , he went to my lords commissioners for the scotch treaty at ripon , and , upon that day , there were two prime gentlemen of those parts , that came and attended the lords , he thinks , about business of their own , and , he supposes , only to tender their service to their lordships ; that , amongst some other discourses betwixt the lords and them , they mentioned some such order as this was , concerning the relieving of the two regiments , that were for the guard of richmondshire , and some other of those parts , made , as they said , by the great council of the peers ; and thereupon , that themselves , my lord of strafford , and the rest of the deputy-lieutenants , had granted out vvarrants , for the assessing of money for the relieving of those regiments ; those that heard it were startled at the order , being said to be an order of the great council ; and commanded him ( the examinant ) to inform them , vvhether he knew of any such order ? he told them , he remembers not any such order , and was confident he never drew up any , because he never heard any mention of those two regiments in the great council . their lordships asking him , whether he was sure of it ? he told their lordships he would look on his notes , and faithfully inform them how the case stood , he did so , and came back to their lordships , and told them he found nothing in his notes of these regiments ; and while he was there , he was confident no order was drawn up ; it is true , ( he told their lordships ) some order might be drawn up , when he was absent , for he was first at ripon , and at york he was oftentimes employed in the committee to write letters and orders , and what was done in his absence , he could give no answer to ; but confident he was , no order was made before the th of october by him , or in his hearing or knowledge . hereupon the lords desired those two gentlemen , to give them copies of the warrants they had sent out , and that he ( the examinant ) should take their testimony , which he did ; this was the twentieth or twenty seventh of october , which was the last day of the great council of the peers . my lord of strafford in council then did take notice , that some such thing had been done at ripon , and then said to my lord , that he did conceive he had the kings order , and their lordships approbation , for the issuing out of this vvarrant . but , since , he conceived their lordships disliked it , he had taken copies of it , he was very willing to withdraw these warrants ; and , on debate , there was nothing more done ; for his part , he never drew up an order , nor was he commanded to draw it up . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) whether on that last day , his majesty was not pleased to say in the council , that what the earl of strafford did in that affair , was with his consent ? he answered , it is true , he did give his consent to it , and commanded him to go on with it ; when he ( the earl of strafford ) desired , if any thing were amiss in it , he might call back his warrant again , and that he might easily do it , and no hurt would come of it ; and , whether his majesty did thereupon affirm , that my lord of strafford had formerly acquainted him with it , and he commanded him to go on ? he answered , that it is very true , my lord deputy appealed to the king , vvhether he had not his majesties approbation and order for it ? and , the king said , he did acquaint him with it before the lords ; but not ( to his knowledge ) that he commanded him to proceed . being asked ( on my lord of essex motion ) vvhether some of the lords did not take exception at the vvarrant , and likewise thought fit , it should be called in again ? he answered , that the vote generally of the lords was against the vvarrant ; but , he remembers not any thing said for the recalling of it ; but , they absolutely declined the making of any such vvarrant . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) vvhether it was voted or no ? he answered , that it was spoken to by several of my lords , but all declined it . being asked , vvhether he had the vvarrant , or a true copy of it ? he answered , he hath a copy of that which was delivered him , by the two gentlemen that were then at ripon , and their hands are to it , to attest it ; and , he saw them set their hands to it himself . being bid to name the two gentlemen . he said , they were mr. robert strickland , and mr. mallard , vvho did affirm , that , to the best of their remembrance , this is a true copy of the vvarrant , sent out to the several divisions . to prove execution by force , mr. henry cholmeley interrogated , what he heard the earl of strafford say , touching the vice-presidents issuing of warrants ? he answered , that shortly after my lord of straffords coming to york , in the presence-chamber at york , he ( the examinant ) among some other gentlemen , were summoned to be there , where my lord of strafford , speaking of the trained-bands , occasion was offered by another that was there , how the private , or common-men should be maintained ? my lord of strafford answered , it had been always the custom , that the private men should serve themselves in person , or maintain the charge of them that served for them ; and , the common mens charge is borne by the several constables in the towns where they live : and , he said to his majesty , sir , if you please , mr. vice-president may , or shall ( the examinant knows not which ) send out warrants to that purpose ; but , whether he sent out any or no , he cannot tell . william dowsen sworn , and interrogated , how he hath known those moneys for the trained-bands , levyed ? he answered , ( his answer being commanded by the clark , the witnesses having a low voice . ) that mr. yaworth , sergeant-major to sir william pennyman , came with four musketiers to the lordship of egton , and sent them for assessors , and when the assessors came , they were importuned to have them assess ( for they had been unwilling to assess ) and , if they would not , they should answer it before my lord general , and then they consented to assess ; and he shewed a warrant from sir william pennyman , and gave it to the constable for the collection of the money . being asked , vvhether he threatned , that he should serve in person , if he did not pay ? he answered , yes , by serjeant-major yaworth , and so he served under sir william pennymans regiment . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) vvhether he saw any vvarrant of his ? he answered , no. being asked , vvhether the four musketiers did not go along with the constable , from place to place to levy the money ? he answered , two musketiers went with every constable to levy it . william pierson sworn , and interrogated , vvhether four musketiers , or soldiers , did not come to collect this money ? he answered , yes . and he saw them in the town , go altogether in with the constables ; but , in the deales or outsides , there went but with each constable one ; the lordship consists of long deales , distant one from another score , and , in those out-places , one went with a constable , but , in the town , all four went. being interrogated , by what vvarrant ? he answered , that he did see a vvarrant that was receiv'd from captain yaiworth , under sir william pennymans hand , and he saw his name at it . sir william ingram sworn , and interrogated , vvhat he hath heard my lord of strafford say , touching this business of levying money ? and , what condition they were in that deny'd to pay it ? he answered , that soon after the trained-bands were commanded to be drawn forth , he found the opportunity , and did move my lord of strafford , acquainting him what case soldiers were in ; for he ( the examinant ) had been with the soldiers , and found them willing to march , if they might know how to be maintained : the masters had refused to pay the private men , and the constables said , the parishes were so poor , that they could not collect any more money ; and desired , his lordship would be pleased , before they were drawn forth , he might know how they should be maintained : and , his lordship gave him this answer , that the private men must maintain their soldiers after the rate of d. a day , so long as they were forth , else he would commit them , and order should be taken , the soldiers should be maintained after d. a day , out of their estates ; and commanded him ( the examinant ) to speak to the constables , that assessments might be made for the maintenance of the common army ; and , if any did refuse to pay their parts of an assessment , they should be likewise committed to prison , and lie there , and the common soldiers should be maintained after the rate of d. a day ; and , he would have men know , that refusing to pay such contribution , they were in little better condition , than guilty of high-treason . sir harry griffin being interrogated , vvhether my lord of strafford sent not messengers to them , that refused to pay this money assessed ? he answered , that indeed he doth not know of any thing concerning the two regiments of sir william pennyman , and sir thomas danby ; but , for his own , he can speak , that about the latter end of august last , he was commanded by the sergeant mayor-general of the trained-bands , to advance his regiment ; and , assoon as they were advanced , there issued forth assessments for a whole monthes pay , for his whole regiment ; and , on this warrant he received l. or thereabouts , but more they would not , nor could not pay ; whereupon he went to my lord of strafford , and told him , he could not keep his companies together without money ; and my lord bid him go back to his regiment , and he would take a course , and my lord did grant forth his warrant , and on that was pleased to send a messenger ( as he thinks ) to the constable , to whom it was directed , and the messengers went from constable to constable , and all was paid . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) whether it were paid voluntarily ? he answered , they were for ought he knows . sir hugh cholmley being interrogated ( on mr. maynards motion ) of what quality those persons were , that staid with my lord of strafford , and joyned in the latter petition ? and , whether many of them were not recusants ? he answered , that there were some of them gentlemen of very good quality , a few that had retracted their hands from the petition , some or , and he doth not know , whether there were not many papists , but they took a note of four or six and twenty , to his best remembrance , that the country had a character on them to be papists , and men affected that way , but he knows not whether they were convicted or no. and so mr. maynard said , they should leave this article a while , in expectation of my lord of straffords answer , and then they should recollect their proofs ; in the mean time they supposed every particular was proved . my lord of strafford , after some time granted him to recollect his notes , made his defence in substance as follows . and first , he desired leave to read the charge , and their lordships should find , how little of the matter opened before them this day , was therein contained , and so he is not accountable for it . he read the th article . that in or about the moneth of august last , &c. his lordship craved liberty to dissent from that worthy gentleman that spoke last , who in his opinion , is very much mistaken , who was pleased to say , that all was fully proved ; for he conceives , little or nothing is proved as to him . that he might give their lordships the clear satisfaction , he desired to go on in their own order ; and as the proofs were offered , he shall offer his answers . the first thing spoken of , is a petition drawn up by certain gentlemen , whereby they did offer a months pay to the trained-bands , which petition was shewed the defendant , and was refused by him to be delivered , and the reason assigned is , because in the latter part there is contained a petition for calling of a parliament , and that is laid to him as a crime , but where it is , he doth not find , and when he doth , he shall answer and acknowledge it . he acknowledged there was such a petition , and that it was shewed to him , and having not been acquainted with it formerly , he remembers very well , he desired to be excused from medling with it ; for having the honor at that time to be the kings lieutenant of the county ; besides that , he was lieutenant-general of the army , and having some poor share there , though not so great as other men , he thought it very strange , that when the king had appointed them on tuesday to meet together , and advise how his service might be complyed with , they should at a private meeting after supper , resolve of this petition , and never make him so much as acquainted with it ; and where he was made so great a stranger in the beginning of the business , he appeals to their lordships whether he had reason to be over officious , to serve them in the conclusion . he acknowledges the petition was delivered him , and on the reading of it , when he heard that clause , of moving the king for a parliament , he disadvised it , and desired to be excused concerning it , not so fitting at that time , nor for them on such an occasion : and therefore it might be left out , or a course taken to deliver it by some other hand than his ; and he trusts it is no offence , for which he is any way punishable , to reserve that christian liberty in his own opinion , that he sees cause for , when it may be done without breach of any law penal , or good manners , his liberty being as free then to himself , as to them . but it was not out of any unwillingness the parliament should be called ; upon which they should pinch him ; and make their lordships and the gentlemen think him averse from parliaments , for he did tell them at that time , he was confident there would be a parliament ; and that on the coming together of the great council of the peers , he did conceive his majesty would be pleased to call a parliament ; and that their petition would neither further nor hinder it , and therefore it might be forborn , and the king left in his acts of grace to his people , that he might have all the honor of it to himself ; and that it should rise out of his own goodness , and royal breast , not as advised to it on the desire of any body else ; and therefore he thought not fit that that should be put into the petition , not out of a desire to avoid parliaments ; for it is well enough known , ( and if need were ) he could justify himself in it , that no poor servant the king had , was more forward , nor ready , nor willing to advise the calling of this parliament , than he was : but he shall ever conceive it fit in this case , to reserve the honor of the kings grace and favour , as much as may be to himself , and not direct it to any other hand whatsoever , and did then ( as always ) as much as he could , apply the thanks of the people to the king his master , and assume nothing to himself . but this he conceives no crime , and therefore he shall not need to trouble their lordships with proof of it , there being gentlemen in the room ( he dares say ) that will justifie him in this particular . they come then and speak of a second message , to have been delivered by him to his majesty at york ; hereby he is charged to have imposed a tax without lawful warrant ; he humbly affirms , and trusts , he shall manifestly prove it , that the thing was yielded to by their own universal assent , and that it was levied by their own voluntary will ; and that there was nothing of force from the beginning to the ending of the business ; for if he had dealt in that manner , he had been much to blame , tho as he stood then qualified , he thinks himself not punishable for it . on debate of the business , not above three or four dissented , tho there were two hundred present , they were perswaded and convinced , it was just and necessary to contribute , and most of them that did dissent , have been examined before their lordships ; but they did absolutely and totally lay aside their petition , and gave him commission only in words , to signify to his majesty , that they were most willing and ready to contribute the pay of a month , for maintainance of the trained-bands , and that he did faithfully deliver . and whereas it is said they are papists , he shall name persons as free from that tax , as any men in the shire , who did give their consent , and he named divers of them . to prove that he did nothing by force , but by unanimous consent of all . sir paul neal was first called , and being interrogated , whether the petition signed by the lord wharton , and the rest , was not by the major of the gentlemen there declined and laid aside ? he answered , that he was amongst divers others , present at this meeting in the common-hall , and on the first coming thither , this petition was presented by my lord wharton in the name of the gentlemen that had subscribed it ; on the reading of the petition , my lord of strafford did conceive , that the clause concerning the desire of a parliament was in it self superfluous , because the king had declared his intention to have one , if at the meeting of their lordships at york it should be desired ; and therefore he desired the clause might be put out , and another petition presented to the effect of the former , only the last clause omitted , and that might be verbally presented by some such man , as the major part of the company should choose , and on a long debate , it was concluded ( to the best of his remembrance ) by vote , and the whole vote of the company went , it should be delivered by my lord of strafford , according to the substance of the petition , the last clause left out ; and to the negative part , there were some four or five , he dares confidently swear , not above halfe a score . being asked , what number there was of the company , that were willing to wave the petition ? he answered , that the hall was very full ; he cannot give account of a certain number , nor knew the subscription of the petition , for till now he remembers not , that ever he heard the particular names read ; but there was , he thinks gentlemen of several ranks . being asked whether it was not the voluntary consent of them all , that a months entertainment should be allowed the trained bands ? he answered , that he conceives the consent was given no fuller nor larger , but just the same as in the petition , saving that one clause . which mr. maynard observed , went not further than to promise an endeavor . sir paul neal being interrogated , whether the money was not voluntarily paid all over the countrey , for the months entertainment , with force or violence ? he answered , he can give no answer to that , having nothing to do in the countrey as deputy-lieutenant , or officer , and other than he heard by discourse , he cannot speak of his knowledge , being asked ( on mr. glyns motion ) whether the major part of them that signed the petition , did wave it ? he answered , that he conceives he gave an answer to that before , for he remembers not , that till this day , he ever knew the names of the gentlemen that subscribed it , but only an attestation , that about had subscribed , and whether the major part of those were present , he doth not know . being asked ( on my lord of straffords motion ) whether he did not know divers of them that signed the petition , declared themselves for the waving of it ? he answered , he did not know who had signed it , and who not , saving only some gentlemen speaking in the debate , did declare , that they in particular had signed it , and did recede from it . being asked what he meant when he said , that not above halfe a score went to the negative of the message ? he answered , that he meant it of them that were in the hall. sir edward osborne was called to be a witness for my lord of strafford , but mr. maynard excepted against his being examined , as being one of them that sent out the warrant , for paying money on pain of death , and as sir william pennyman would have declined answering any thing of his own act , as concerning himself , so it was desired this gentleman might not be examined to the justification of himself by saying , the money was levied by consent . but sir edward alledged to their lordships , that there is particular complaint in the petion against his warrant , and therefore it was issued long before the petition presented . after some further debate , the examination of him was resolved upon . sir edward osborne being interrogated , whether the major part of them that subscribed the petition , and were present at the second meeting , did not decline the petition ? he answered , that he cannot say the major part of them that subscribed the petition , did dissent openly in the hall , for he thinks many of them were gone out of town , but he is sure , the major part there , nay all , but about ten , did consent to the leaving out of the clause , touching the parliament , and to a months pay ; and on that , it was humbly moved to my lord ( he cannot tell whether by himself the examinant ) that my lord would do them the honor , to represent their ready affections to do the king that service , that he would be their mouth , which accordingly his lordship did , and they all attended him when he delivered the message ; and he doth not remember there was above or gentlemen , that opened their mouths against this consent , not in words , what their hearts were he cannot tell . being asked , whether many that had subscribed the petition , did not declare they would not wave it , and go the other way ? he answered , there were some that did indeed , but he doth not know how many , sir edward robinson in particular , and gave his reasons for it , sir richard hutton and some others . being asked , how many gentlemen he thinks were present at that meeting ? he answered , the hall was very full , and there were gentlemen , freeholders and others , to the number of , as near as he could imagine . being asked , whether that was not the place and time appointed by the king , for the countrey to meet and treat about the business ? he answered , yes , it was so , by his majesties special command , the day before . being asked , whether my lord of strafford did not go to the mannor , and many gentlemen with him , and delivered their message to the king faithfully and justly , as he had in commission to do , and no otherwise ? he answered , that according to their desire to his lordship , he went presently to the mannor ; and they all attended him , but he could not hear the message delivered , the croud was so great . being asked ( on mr. maynards motion ) whether there was any difference between the message and petition , but only the leaving out the last clause touching the parliament ? he answered , truly no , but the principal things he took notice of , was a months pay . being asked ( on mr. palmers motion ) of what quality they were that were in the hall , whether not some that came to gaze only , and not prosecute the matter of the petition ? he answered , that it is impossible for him to see through the bodies of men ; but there were not many of inferior quality that he knew ; but had he time to do it , they should make a catalogue of as many gentlemen and freeholders , as set their hand to the petition : but he cannot see in such a room as this , whether there be serving-men , or aprentizes in a croud . to which mr. maynard answered , much less can he hear it . sir william pennyman interrogated , whether the petition deliver'd by my lord wharton , was by the major part of the gentlemen that met , according to the kings appointment , at the place proper for the business , declined ? and whether they did not declare their consent to a months pay , and that my lord of strafford should deliver the message by word of mouth ? he answered , that the major part did decline the delivery of the petition , and it was done upon a vote , there being some difference of opinion , and he thinks truly , according to his conjecture , there were voices at the least , to three or four . happily some others tacitly might be of another opinion , but there was to his best remembrance , three or four voted against it . being asked , whether divers that signed it , did not decline it ? he answered , that divers that set their hands to the petition did retract it , whereof he himself was one , and divers other members of the house , whom he offered to name , if their lordships required it , but that their lordships did not think fit to direct . being asked , whether my lord of strafford did not faithfully and rightfully present to his majesty , the message , he was intrusted with ? he answered , that he was one of them that went with my lord , but was in the same condition with sir edward osborne , for the crowd was so great that he could not come to hear . where my lord of strafford desired their lordships to take notice , that it was not in a corner when gentlemen of their quality could not come near . being asked ( on mr. maynards motion ) whether there was to be any difference , between what was to be delivered to the king , and that contained in the petition , the last clause excepted ? he answered , that he conceives nothing was to be omitted , but only that of the parliament . being asked ( on the lord whartons motion ) whether he and another had not commission , to acquaint my lord of strafford from them that had subscribed the petition , that they had a petition to be deliver'd his lordship for his majesty , and whether he brought not word back again , that they should wait on his lordship with the petition on saturday , at one or two of the clock , and at his lordships own house , and whether they did not accordingly wait on him ? he answered , that he did , and they did come , and it was purposely , that they might most of them goe to the hall , not to make my lords house a place of his debate . being asked , whether he was not directed to acquaint my lord of strafford with the petition , and whether he brought back word about the time of attending ? he answered , it is true he did , but he knows not whether he brought it on a message from my lord. being urged to answer that positively , whether he brought it as a message from my lord. he answered , that it may very well be he did , he thinks he did ; but he added , in effect his desire was to know , what the question tended to . mr. maynard thereupon desired of their lordships , that a witness at the bar might not demand the meaning of a question , before he answers to the truth of it . and mr. glyn observed , that my lord of strafford had several times besought , he might go on quietly with his evidence , and they hope their lordships will justify them , that they have behaved themselves as men intrusted by the house of commons , and that their lordships will not suffer this language to be used . they must demand justice . and mr. maynard added , that they desire only that the witness may readily answer to the question propounded , and not advise , what may be the consequence , or enquire the intention of them , for they are to speak only the truth . but my lord of strafford conceived it a very fitting question for the witness , to desire to understand the question before he answers it , and that 's all he doth , as he conceives . being required to answer positively , whether he brought that message from my lord of strafford , touching the time of delivering the petiton ? he answered , that he did . my lord of strafford here offered to their lordships , that he conceives this question not material to him , he was then extream sick , and in his sick bed , when he should send this message ; and that truly , he was never in such height of incivility towards any man alive of a far meaner quality than my lord wharton , as to send them word , they should attend him at such an hour , he knows what belongs to my lord wharton , and what to himself , much better , than to send for , or expect any attendance from his lordship . sir william savill being interrogated , whether the petition signed as aforesaid , was not absolutely by the major part of them in the hall declined , and voted , that it should not be delivered ? he answered , that he was there , and by the major part of the gentlemen present , it was delivered , and consented , that my lord should deliver the substance of the petition to the king , by word of mouth , saving the last clause concerning the parliament . being asked , whether there were not divers that signed it , who did afterwards retract it ? and whether himself did not ? he answered there were , and that he himself signed the former petition , and then it came to be disputed before them , whether they should retract it or no ? he was against the retracting of it , and many delivered votes against it , under he believes , and for his own part he said nothing to it ; but it was carried so clearly by the opinion of them present , that he went along with a great number of gentlemen , that went with my lord to the king , and he heard my lord faithfully deliver the substance of the petition in every thing , and with more advantage to them than the petition was drawn , except the business of the parliament . being asked , whether part of it was not the consent to a months pay of the trained bands ? he answered , that he verily believes it was the intention of them all , that a months pay should be paid to the soldiers of the countrey , and the months pay was paid . being asked , whether it was not willingly and voluntarily paid in every place without constraint , to his knowledge ? he answered , that in that part where he lived , no body denyed whatsoever was asked , so there was no pressing of any body to pay a penny , nor complaint of any body for want of money . sir william pennyman being asked to the said last point ? he answered , that it was with a agreat deal of alacrity and cherfulness , and he heard no man repine at it , then nor since . sir edward osborne interrogated to that point ? answered , he never knew of any forcible course to make men pay it , but it was freely paid . sir william savill being interrogated , how many of them that set their hands to the petition , did vote against it ? he answered , that there were of them that set their hands to the petition , who did vote the retraction of it , and he named sir francis worteley , sir thomas danby , sir george wentworth of wolley ( as he thinks ) and sir edward rhodes . sir edward rhodes interrogated , whether the country did intrust my lord of strafford , to deliver a message to his majesty , declaring their consent to a moneths pay , &c. he answer'd , that after long debate , whether the petition should be presented or no ? it was by plurality of voices , declined and waved ; and , it was moved to my lord , that he should present the requests of the gentlemen then met , or the plurality of them to his majesty to this purpose , that having demanded two moneths pay , the gentlemen of the country made that request to my lord , humbly to beseech his majesty to accept of one moneths pay , which his lordship did , and his majesty was graciously pleased to accept of it , having formerly given them encouragement for the abatement of men of the trained bands after those troubles were past ; and , if any gentleman suffered in that service , there should be no benefit taken of his wardship , and when my lord presented the desire of the gentlemen to his majesty , he was pleased , in stead of taking of , to promise to reduce the trained-bands to . being asked what number of gentlemen were in the hall ? and , whether that was not the place appointed for the county , to consult about the business ? he answered , that he thinks that there was at the least , of the one and the other ; and for the place and time , it was both the place and time , and that was an exception my lord of strafford took , but he was not fairly dealt withal , that in regard his majesty gave direction , that at such a time , and such a place , my lord president ( by that name his majesty was pleased to call him ) and the gentlemen of the countrey should consider the business ; my lord thought much a petition should be drawn without his consent , and that the business should be concluded before the time , and from the place of debate . being asked , how many dissented from this court ? he answered , he thinks not above , if there were so many . being asked , whether diverse that signed the petition , did not retract it ? and , amongst the rest , himself ? he answered , diverse did retract it ; and , himself gave his voice for the waving of it : but , he cannot say he retracted it , for his hand was not to the petition . being asked , whether my lord of strafford had not commission from the county , to offer a full moneths pay of the trained-bands ? he answered , it was the desire of the country , that his lordship would be pleased to entreat his majesty , to accept of a moneths pay , being desired by the king. being asked , whether they were not willing to pay it in that part of the country , where he lives ? he answered , that where he served as deputy-lieutenant , he knows not of one man that complained , or shew'd unwillingness , or any difference , but only in the proportion between man and man. being asked , whether my lord of strafford did not faithfully relate the message to the king , according to the commission the country gave him ? he answered , that he conceives he did it most faithfully , and with great advantage to the country . sir tho. danby being interrogated to the matter of the petition , and the declining of it ; the consenting of a moneths pay ; the cheerfulness in paying of it . he answered . that the petition was delivered . that the money was paid with a great deal of cheerfulness . that they were content to come to a moneths pay . that he heard of no man that declared to deny it . being asked ( on mr. maynards motion ) whether any other direction was given for the message , besides the petition , the last clause excepted ? he answered , that one taken off , my lord was to deliver the substance of the petition . being asked ( on mr. maynards motion ) whether there were not two trained-soldiers hang'd up , for mutyning for want of pay ? mr. maynard thence observing , that if they had been well paid , there had been no want of it . he answered , that he cannot answer to that without some prejudice to himself ; he being question'd for hanging men by martial-law . sir george wentworth of wolley being interrogated , whether he was not present at the hall , where the petition was spoke of ? and , whether a moneths pay was not consented to ? he answered , he was present , and the petition was declined by the major number ; there was a great number in the hall , and my lord delivered it accordingly to the king. he was present when he presented all the grievances exprest in the petition , and left out only that part concerning the parliament . being asked , whether my lord of strafford had authority to acquaint the king , there should be a moneths pay ? he answered , yes : and , the place of debating was the common-hall ; and , diverse that signed the former petition , did retract it , and himself was one of them . being asked , whether the money was not paid willingly by every man , without force and constraint ? he answered , that he was a collonel , and it was paid him very well . the next thing my lord of strafford observed , was , concerning a warrant alleadged to be given out by him , for levying of a fortnights pay to the two regiments of sir william pennyman , and sir tho. danby . if in any thing in his answer he be mistaken , he had rather submit it than dispute it ; and , if it please their lordships to favour him so far , he will , as near as he can , tell every thing that passed ; and , he hopes , diverse of their lordships will remember a great part of it . it is very true , before this moneth was ended , ( he is sure within it ) the king licensed all the trained-bands to go home again , save the two regiments , one for richmondshire , and the other for cleaveland , which , by his majesties express command , and council of war , were required , one to remain at yaram , the other in richmondshire , to preserve them from those of the other side . sir william pennyman and some others finding , that by this means these regiments continuing in pay , fell to be grievous to that part of the hundred ; those two hundreds , or weapontakes acquainted him ( the earl of strafford ) with it , out of no particular end in the world , but that with equality and justice in that common misfortune , they might all bear the common burden . divers of their lordships being there at rippon , he did humbly present to the king , before the great council of my lords at yorke , that he conceived if the whole-charge of those two regiments should lie on those two hundreds , it would impoverish and undoe them ; and therefore he conceived it justice and reason , that the rest of the county should contribute towards the charge ( the benefit being common to all ) or else they should successively relieve those regiments , that the burden of all might lie equal on all . this was his intention , and he hopes it was fair , and if not as it ought to be , yet it was done with a very good heart , and justly intended : this he moving at that time , his majesty was pleased to assent to it , and lik'd it very well , and gave direction he should proceed ; whereupon he said , then if my lords approve of it , he shall see it done accordingly . there were diverse of the lords then said yes ; and thereupon he took it for granted , that it was their consent . if in this he did mistake , of their lordships , he humbly craves their pardon , it being far from him to prejudice any man living in that relation , and , that it was so , he thinks a noble peer , then present , ( viz. my lord of st. albanes ) will remember , that diverse on the motion did say , yes ; and thereupon he took it to be a thing granted . and , that as my lord of st. albanes , who being gone home indisposed in his health , my lord of strafford desired he might reserve himself the benefit of his examination , if he shall see cause , though he hopes there will be no need of it . after this , he understanding that some of their lordships at rippon were not satisfied , because the great council was named for the author of the warrant ; the very last day the great council sate at yorke ( their lordships being then come back from rippon ) he moved it to the king , and gave the same relation there , that he makes here before their lordships , desiring to know their pleasure , whether the warrant should be recalled or no ? for he could then easily do it : nothing being done upon it . under favour , some of their lordships said , the great council had no power to levy money ; to which he answered , that the warrant was not to levy money , but that the parties concerned should do their duties themselves , or otherwise pay the money . at that time it pleased his majesty to command him to go on ; and , after the king had spoken , no man spake to the contrary , and so the warrant was not recalled ; but , the moneys were paid voluntarily , no force or constraint being put upon any , but they took it as a great benefit that they had that favour , as for his part he conceived it was : and , all himself got by it , was , that , by this means himself , and all his tenants , and those that had relation to him , came to pay their proportionable shares , which otherwise should not have paid a farthing , ( for they were at a great distance in the west-riding ) and they paid it voluntarily , and willingly ; and , when he spake with the deputy-lieutenants , they all conceived it a benefit , and advantage to the country ; and , it was done with their consent , and a great ease , and a burden to no man , so he acknowledges such a warrant was granted , but nothing of force or constraint , mr. ro. strickland interrogated , whether he conceived not this a great ease to the country , thus to lay the last fortnights pay for the two regiments ? and stood with his advise , and the advise of his lieutenants ? he answered , that it was very well paid for any thing he knows , but the most part of it , if it was paid , was paid after he came to london . but , he conceives , that if those regiments must stand , or the other march up to their reliefe , it was for the ease of the country , and so he conceived then , otherwise he should not have subscribed the warrant : and , it had laid heavy on those divisions , where the two regiments of sir william pennyman , and sir thomas danby lay , who had been undone by it ; it was done meerly for their relief , without any ill intent whatsoever . sir edward osborne interrogated , what he thinks of the course ? and , whether he consented not to it , as a very great advantage ? he answered , the question being propounded by my lord lieutenant to the deputy lieutenants , whether two regiments that lived on the place , the frontier of the north-riding , should be paid by the countries contributing , or their charge , or the country to send their regiments for relief of these two ; they conceived it was a mighty ease and benefit to the country to pay the two regiments , and the rest of the trained-bands continue ; for , some of them must march miles in way , and miles backwards , and , some of them that lay there , never stirred out of their own towns : and therefore they were of opinion , it was a marvellous ease . being asked , whether this fortnights pay was voluntarily paid in the parts where he lived ? and , whether force was used ? he answered , he lived at york altogether , and cannot tell : but , some officers asking , what they should do for the moneys that are behind for relief of the two regiments ? my lord answered , that which will be willingly and freely paid , you must take it ; that which will not , you must let it alone : and , this was four or five dayes before my lord of strafford came from york . sir william pennyman being interrogated , touching the convenience and ease of this course ? he answered , that he conceives it very easie and advantagious , for else some of the regiments must have marched miles , and it would have taken up a great part of the charge , in the very march. my lord of strafford added , that he would prove it by all the deputy lieutenants that were there , that no force or constraint was put upon any man by him , nor is there any proofes to prove force : there be onely two things insisted on ; one is the warrant of sir edward osborne , that they should pay money on peril of their lives ; he denies that he signed any such warrant ; and , he is sure there is none under his hand : if they have it to show , he desires they would shew it ; if they do not , then their lordships judgments will acquit him of it . the other is sergeant major yowards warrant , and a fellow that tells a tale of muskiteers , and sayes , there was a warrant of his ; but , he sayes , he made no such warrant ; he gave no direction for it ; neither is there any such warrant shown ; and , he trusts , that will acquit him of that too : and , if there be any thing of crime in the business , it must be , that they have been constrained by force , to pay the moneys ; for , if it be voluntarily offered to take or leave , this can be no crime ; and , that there was any force , or any warrant issued by him , he denies : and , by this time , he thinks he hath cleared himself against all the matters charged in this article . but , he conceives , he hath done nothing , but that he had commission and power to do , though he never had acquainted the great council with it under favour : it is true , he was alwayes desirous , to have the assistance of men wiser than himself ; and , when there was means or opportunity to gain it , he took it : but , if he had been in yorkshire all alone , having the power and commission he then had ( though his majesty and their lordships had not been there ) he conceives he might have justified the doing of as much , as he hath done in this parliament ; his commission under the seal of my lord admiral being in effect , for the better execution of this our commission , we do further give and grant to you full power and authority , from time to time , and at all times at your discretion , to command , and require of and from all our lieutenants , and deputy-lieutenants in our several counties of this our realm and dominion of wales , and of and from every , or any of them , to send to you , or such place as you shall appoint , such number of able men for the war , as well horsemen as footmen , in the said counties respectively , or otherwise , sufficiently armed and furnished , as you in your discretion shall appoint and require . and , he did not send them to pay any money , but to relieve by turnes , regiment after regiment ; and , if they found it for their ease , they might be at the charge , else do the duty required , which , by the common allegiance , every man is bound to do . say then he had committed an error , he had rather confess than justifie it , as long as it is not brought to him as a crime . but , there is another clause , according to the statute of h. . viz. and further , our pleasure is , and we do give and grant for us , our heirs and successors , that whatsoever you , or any other person , or persons of what degree soever , by your commission , warrant , or command shall do , by vertue of this our commission , or letters patents , or according to the instructions aforesaid , or the purport of this our commission , touching the execution of the premises , both you , and the said persons , in shewing forth these our letters-patents , or the constat , or inrollment thereof , shall be discharged and acquitted against us , our heires and successors , and freed from all impeachment , and other molestation for the same . he did this without sinister ends , or by-respects ; and therefore if he did any way err , by his majesties own gracious clause , he is to be excused ; and , it is pursuing to the statute of h. . c. . where the preamble is very observable . the king , our soveraign lord , recalling to his remembrance the duty and allegiance of his subjects , and that they , by reason of the same , are bound to serve the king for the time to come in his wars , against every rebellion , and power , and might , &c. and whatsoever falls against the mind of the prince ; and , that it is against all law , reason and conscience , that attending his person , or being in other places of his command , any should lose or forfeit for doing their true service and obedience . be it therefore enacted , &c. that from henceforth , no manner of person , or persons whatsoever , that attends the king in his person , and do him true allegiance in his person , or be in other places in his wars , for the said deed , or true duty , he and they shall be any way convicted , and attainted of treason , nor of any other offence by any process of law , whereby he shall forfeit lands , goods , tenements , &c. and shall be for that deed and service utterly discharged of any vexation , &c. so that he conceives he hath done nothing , but what may receive a fair and equal interpretation ; what he hath done , he hath done very candidly , and clearly , for the good of his masters service , and preservation of the country ; and he hath done nothing violently , or deliberately , to force men to do things , that may any way trench on the propriety or liberty of the subject : and , whatsoever evil he may have committed in this , he hopes , by the act of parliament , and by the words of the commission read , he shall stand before their lordships ( in point of justice , and noble compassion to a man that may erre ) acquitted from any part of that charge , that may accuse him of high treason . onely one thing he hath omitted , and that is the testimony of sir william ingram , where he charges me with saying , the refusers to pay the money are in little better condition , than guilty of high treason . but he is a single testimony ; and he sayes , that clearly underfavour it is no mean offence for any man , to deny the common allegiance due to the king , for defence of his vvars : but , the words are testified to be spoken only to one man , and he is not accomptable to him , nor to their lordships , for that , he being but a single testimony . mr. maynard began to reply to the said defence in substance , as followeth . that whereas my lord sayes , they have urged much that , which was not charged ; his lordship hath answered , that which was not objected as a charge : for , the greatest part of the time he hath spent in examining so many vvitnesses , is , to shew on what grounds the first petition was deserted , and a message put on his lordship to deliver to the king : the petition was not offered to him as a matter of charge , but it is charged upon him , that he procured to levy and impole money upon the country by force , without a legal vvarrant , and , by way of excuse , in his answer , he sets forth , that the country did yield to it by their unanimous consent . to that purpose it was objected to him , not that the delivery of the message was a crime ( and therefore he might have spared this labour to answer it , as to that purpose ) but , as himself states the case , he hath much encreased , rather then diminished his fault ; for , he said , there was a consent ; yet , it appears , there were but principal gentlemen parties in the first petition , and he encounters these to met together ; the greater part of whom consenting , and of them that had subscribed , and about dissenting , they resolve of a message to be delivered touching consent ; but , they have proved , not only a leavy for the first moneth , but much more ; though when the gentry met together , and consented to a petition , it is no desertion of that petition , because of deserted , especially when they had a message from my lord to meet about it , and , relying upon it , went into the country : besides , gentlemen freeholders , and others , could not lay a charge on the rest of the country , nor bind them that had dissented before , and whose consent was not involved ; and , it is no legal way to raise money by warrant , much less by force . for the money levyed after the moneth expired , my lord hath offered no colour to their lordships ; for first , the ground whereupon he raised it , was contrary to that which was the truth , viz. the consent of the lords of the great council ; whereas it appear'd , and shall appear further , there was no such consent . my lord of strafford would next justifie it by a commission , but that doth only require people , according to their allegiance , to give attendance ; and , this is turned into a matter of laying of money : for , the first point of the warrant is , to pay the money assessed , and , if they will not , they shall attend , so that what is matter of service is turned out of its course , and this is a high abuse of his power , which makes that matter of money , which should be matter of service ; and , by this meanes , awes men to pay money . the country , on demand of his majesty , did consent to a moneths pay , but , my lord , without their consent , extends it beyond , and pretends an order ( to say no more of it ) when there was no such thing , to draw some deputy-lieutenants together , and , when they are drawn , to make an order , this must be his justification of that which is unduely done : and , this is far from the mitigation of an offence . to do an unjust act is one thing , but , it is a great aggravation when it is drawn by pretence of an authority which never was . on october , the self same day sir iohn burroughs spake of notice taken by their lordships , disclayming the order for a warrant ; and then my lord acknowledged it to be an error ; and , it is doubtful , whether he would have acknowleged it to be so , if it had not been proved so . my lords commission speaks not of money , and the statute makes not to this case , it being only , that when men are on their allegiance , doing the king faithful service , they should not be attainted of high-treason for doing their duty ; and , the interpretation his lordship puts on it , is , that the duty of the subject cannot be done to the king , without levying money in an unlawful way ; if the levying of money , or the imposing of charges be matter of duty , then he gives a justification of the charge : and , whereas he sayes , though he had not had command from his majesty , nor order from the council of peers , he had power enough to do that which he did ; it is to be observed , that my lord did not require men first to serve , but first to pay money ; and if they paid not , then he menaces them , that they should serve , as appears by sir william pennymans warrant , and therefore the warrant might be observed , which sir william pennyman justifies so unwillingly , though in other things he be very forward ; and for a man to be required to pay money , and if he will not pay it , then to perform service , is hard ; for now he comes not on the kings service , but on the displeasure of them that require money from him , and that 's a bad discouragement to them that serve . and whereas my lord sayes , nothing is proved , or but by single proof , their lordships may be pleased to remember , what is proved by sir henry griffin , that my lord said , that money should be levied , and he would take a course for it , and the same gentlemen deposes , that the warrant or order was under my lord straffords hand , which was the warrant for them to pay money . it is likewise proved by sir william ingram , that he said the private men must maintain after d. per day , and gave out his command to the constables , and he would have all men know , that those that refused it , were in a little better condition than high treason , so that to the first part , there is more than a single testimony . the latter part shall be proved by an other . mr. henry cholmley being interrogated , what he heard my lord of strafford speak , concerning treason , in case men pay not that money , or to that effect ? he answered , that he heard not any thing at all of treason . cconcerning the not payment , answered , that at york , at the mannor-house my lord of strafford speaking of the raising of the trained-bands , said , we are all by law tyed to serve the king in our own persons , and if any refuse , they are in little better case , than treason ( he cannot tell whether he said high treason ) and they might be severely punished in the star-chamhamber . and , their lordships may remember mr. cholmeleys former testimony , that the vice-president might , or shall send forth warrants to levy money ; and therefore these gentlemens testimonies stand without impeachment of that point . my lord sayes , moneys were not levyed by force ; yet it was proved , that for these two regiments money was levyed by force ; for , four soldiers came to the town , and went with the constables . but , he sayes , it concerns not him , for no warrant of his was shown . their lordships will not expect , that my lord of strafford should give particular warrants to every officer ; his direction is proved in general ; his commands are conveyed and distributed by particular ministers ; the captains look for commands from them that are above them ; and they from the lieutenant-general : and , sir william pennyman conceives , the warrant made out by the vice-president , was by a warrant from my lord of strafford , or he had my lord of straffords command . so that , take that which is under hand and seal ; take what sir william pennyman , take what mr. cholmeley hath spoken , it cannot be otherwise , but it was done by my lord of straffords command , and that is sure without legal authority : and so mr. maynard conceived they had made a full proof of this article . for that which concernes the great council , he desired my lords answer might be read ; where he sayes expresly , it was done by order of the lords of the great council ; and , mr. maynard humbly prayed , that some of the lords of the great council , might declare the truth in that case . but , my lord of strafford answered , that he confessed it here at the barr , that it is so ; and , must humbly put their lordships in mind , that in his answer , he prayes , if any thing be mistaken , he may have time to amend it ; and he doth amend it , he confesses it was put in too strongly . mr. glyn added , that they put their lordships in mind of it , that it may not be forgotten ; after his lordship was put in mind of it by the lords of the great council , he retracts it ; yet , when he comes to answer , he affirms it ; therefore they think it necessary , to put their lordships in mind of it , least he affirm it again . mr. whitlock observed , that my lord of strafford had made justification of his act here ; and truely , the opinions which he hath here published and declared in the face of the parliament , are sufficient grounds of condemnation of him . he said , the other day , that in case of necessity , the king was loose and absolved , from all rules of government ; and that then money might be levied by force ; and , that their lordships very well remembers what that necessity was , indeed no necessity at all . but , whatsoever the necessity is , they know no such tenent as my lord of strafford publishes : but , it is expresly against the fundamental lawes of the kingdom , and a meer course for his bringing in an arbitrary power . his lordship said , that as he stood qualified , he might justifie as much as he hath done ; which words are little less than the offence wherewith he is charged , and prove the charge . for him to say , that as he was then qualified , because he was lieutenant general of the army , he might send his warrants to tax the kings subjects without parliament , is , to take on him the power of a parliament ; for , under favour , no such tax can be made without assent in parliament : so that what my lord of strafford hath declared as a ground of his defence , is a good ground of his condemnation . my lord of strafford did here desire liberty to speak to the testimony of mr. cholmley , which is new matter ; and , he besought their lordships to observe , that he did not say , as sir william ingram , that the money should be paid , and he that paid not the money , should be in little better condition , then high treason ; but , he that denies his allegiance to the king , to go with him in his wars , in defence of the realm , is little better than guilty of treason , or is fineable in the star-chamber : but , because these are tender points , and he little understands them , and they take hold of all that falls from him , he shall say no more , but that the testimony of the one and the other , are two several things . and , his lordship proceeded to speak something touching sir william ingrams testimony , which mr. glyn interposed , and said , that 's no new matter , but it only arises out of his answer , and therefore he desired no more might be said to that . he proceeded to other matters contained in the reply , and offered to their lordships , that it had been said , he did publiquely justify at the bar , that he had power to lay taxes , and to force payment ; but he said , under favour , no such thing ; but that he having the kings commission and power to call in such , as he should think fit to serve the king , for defence of the realm , and this being pursuant to the act of parliament of h. . he said , he might justify ( as he conceives ) the calling of the regiments to relieve by turns one another , as there should be occasion ; but to say , he had power to tax what he pleased , god forbid , he should say or think such a thing . he is not the wisest man in the world , yet not so ignorant , but to know that the one were a great breach , on the fundamental propriety and liberty of the subject ; but to call men to perform their duty for preservation of the king and kingdom , he conceives to be a quite different thing . his lordship proceeded to speak to some part of the reply , concerning his sending forth of warrants to levy by force . which being excepted against , as new mattermy lord of strafford answer'd that if he speaks new matter , it is sufficient punishment to him . my lord of strafford proceeded , that he is charged to be the procurer of sir william pennymans sending a warrant to levy by force , whereas , he said , the warrant was issued by him and the deputy-lieutenants . but that being denyed and apprehended to be new matter . mr. whitlock desired to reply to my lord of strafford's answer , to what he had formerly opened , wherein he conceived he was not mistaken , but if he were , he submitted , but he opened it thus . that as my lord of strafford with the power and commission he had , he said , he might justify what he had done , and it proved that he sent warrants to levy money , and these moneys were levyed by force . mr. maynard added , that they are here for the king and common-wealth , and desired , that right might be spared them , and that there might not be continual replyes : that no colour of answer is given ; that because a man must serve in person , therefore money must be required of him , else he must be brought by head and shoulders to serve in person . they offered a warrant made upon peril of life , under the hand and seal of sir edward osborne . whence mr. maynard observed , that there is imprisonment ; levying of money ; charging upon pain of life ; levying of goods : nothing can be put upon the subject , but it hath been offered in this case . mr. glyn summ'd up their proofs , saying , since my lord of strafford will have another reply , they have produced their proofs , that he hath levied war against the kings subjects , and did before declare an intention to levy money , which was afterwards done by his direction . sir william pennyman proves , that warrants were issued , and in such sort as mentions a coertion ; they have in pursuance proved it to be levied by four musquetiers , if he gave direction , another gave execution , and the parties body must be carried away , if he pays not ; which is a levying of war against the kings subjects : and gogan r. . was accused of treason , for forceing a man to enter into bond , which is not so much as to force those payments on the kings subjects . they produced sir edward osborns warrant attested by mr. cholmley to be the original warrant that he had from mr. vice-president , to send for the levying of the money . to the &c. whereas his majesty is informed , that the regiment under command of col. cholmley is set forth with little money , which expresses great disaffection to his majesties service , and wilful neglect of your own , and the whole kingdoms safety ; the scotch army having taken newcastle , and being on their march towards these parts : these are therefore to will and require you in his majesties name , and by his special command , to raise , and cause to be raised by the port constable , or otherwise as you shall think best , the sum of s . d . at least for each common soldiers belonging to such towns or parishes , and to send the same immediately to york , to be delivered to the colonel , for pay and supply of the said soldiers , and likewise to charge and command all and every person and persons , who find private arms , or contribute thereunto , forthwith to send the like sum at least to york , to be disposed as aforesaid ; and in case any of them refuse to contribute , you are required by like command , to certify me the names of such refusers , that a messenger may be sent to bring them hither to serve in person , and be severely punished , according to the quality of so high an offence , seeing the safety of his majesties person , and the safety of the kingdom depends on this ; fail not in the speedy execution thereof , as you will answer to the contrary , on peril of your life . dated the last of august . mr. maynard desired their lordships to observe the former deposition that my lord of strafford should say , the vice-president shall , or may send forth warrants , and it is originally my lord of straffords fault . and so they concluded the th article . mr. glyn did offer to their lordships , that there is the th article remaining , wherein , whether shall proceed or no , they have not yet resolved . but they desired another day to be heard , they having something more to say . and so the court was adjourned , and the next day was appointed , a etight of the clock . a summary of the evidence of my lord of strafford . april . this day being appointed , for the summing up of the evidence formerly given on both sides , in the cause concerning my lord of strafford ; the right honourable the lord steward spake in substance as followeth . my lord of strafford , i am commanded by my lords to let you know , that they do expect your lordship will go on in the order set , to sum up your lordships evidence ; and , those gentlemen of the house of commons will likewise sum up theirs , for the close of proofes in matter of fact ; and , that your lordship do it with all clearness and succinctness , avoiding any thing that may give impediment , to the clear and fair proceeding of the cause , which , for matter of fact , is come to a period . my lord of strafford humbly desired , that he might clearly understand what was expected in that case , and then he would perfectly obey my lords in all things ; adding , that he conceives their lordships intention is , that they shall go upon what hath been alleadged before their lordships , without any new matter to be further alleadged on either side . whereunto my lord steward replyed , that if there be any new matter , god forbid but they might alledge it . and , my lord strafford thereupon answered , that he will offer no new matter , unless it should arise from the other side ; professing himself ready to be disposed of , in all acts of obedience to their lordships . and then his lordship proceeded to recollect his evidence in substance , as followeth . may it please your lordships , it falls to my turn , by your lordships leave and favour , to presume to put you in mind , and to represent to you , the proofes , as they have been offered , which i shall do to the best of my memory , with a great deale of clearness . i shall desire to represent them neither better nor worse , then they are in themselves , and , i wish , the like rule may be observed on the other side ; for , in the proceeding of this cause , i heard them alleadge , that , as they conceived , divers articles were fully proved ; whence i conceive , there was nothing fully proved . my lords , my memory is weak , my health hath been impayred , and i have not had such quiet thoughts , as i desired to have had , in a business of so great and weighty importance to me : and therefore i shall most humbly beseech your lordships , that by your wisdom , your justice and goodness , i may be so much bound to you , as to have my infirmities supplyed by your better abilities , better judgments , and better memories . my lords , the charge i am to answer , is a charge of high-treason ; and , that which makes it the most grievous of all , it is an impeachment of treason from the honourable house of commons : were not that in the case , my lords , it would not press so heavy and sore upon me , as now it doth , having the authority and power of their names upon it ; otherwise , my lords , the innocency , and the clearness of my own heart from so foul a crime , is such , that i must with modesty say , if i had no other sin to answer for , it would be easily borne . my lords , as i went along article by article , these gentlemen were pleased to say , they were no treasons in themselves , but conducing to the proof of treason : and , most of the articles being gone over , they come to the point at last . and hence , my lords , i have all along watched , to see if that i could find that poysoned arrow , that should invenome all the rest ; that deadly cup of wine , that should intoxicate a few alledged inconveniences , and misdemeanors , to run them up to high treason . my lords , i confess it seems very strange to me , that there being a special difference between misdemeanors , and between felonies and treasons ; how is it possible that ever misdemeanors should make felonies , or a hundred felonies make a treason ? or , that misdemeanors should be made accessaryes to treason , where there is not a principal in the case ? no treason , i hope , shall be found in me , nor in any thing i hear to be charged , under favour , and not waved . they say well , that if a man be taken threatning of a man to kill him , conspiring his death , and with a bloody knife in his hand , these be great arguments to convince a man of murder . but then , under favour , the man must be killed ; for , if the man be not killed , the murder is nothing . so , all these things that they would make conduce to treason , unless something be treasonable , under favour , they cannot be applyed to treason . my lords , i have learnt that in this case , which i did not know before , that there be treasons of two kinds ; there be statute-treasons , there be treasons at common-law , or treasons constructive and arbitrary . my lords , these constructive treasons have been strangers in this common-wealth a great while , and , i trust , shall be still , by your lordships wisdom and justice : but , as for treasons in the statute , i do , with all gladness and humility acknowledge your lordships to be my judges , and none but you , under favour , can be my judges : his majesty is above it , the king condemns no man : the great operation of his scepter is mercy ; his justice is dispensed by his ministry ; so he is no judge in the case ( with reverence be it spoken : ) and likewise no commoner can be judge in the case of life and death , under favour , in regard he is of another body : so that , my lords , i do acknowledge entirely , you are my judges , and do , with all chearfulness in the world , submit my self unto you ; thinking , that i have great cause to give god thanks , that i have you for my judges , and , god be praised it is so ; and , celebrated be the wisdom of our ancestors that have so ordained it . my lords , i shall observe these rules ; first , i shall ( as i hope ) clear my self of statute treason , and then shall come to constructive treason , or treason at the common-law . the first point they charge me withal of treason , is upon the fifteenth article ; wherein neverthess , before i come to answer the particulars , i must humbly inform your lordships , that , in that article , two of the most material charges are waved in the first part ; that piece of the charge that sounds so high , concerning a miscarriage in me , in levying money upon the towns of baltemore , bandenbridge , talow , of that i hear nothing , and i shall mention it only thus farr , humbly to remember your lordships , that , in that particular , i trust i have spoken nothing , that i should merit less belief of your lordships : for my part , it is far from me , to put you upon any prejudice , by any means whatsoever ; i look onely to the preserving of my self , if it may be without prejudice and hurt to any living soul. then they likewise wave another piece of the charge , and that is , that i should , by force of armes , dispossess divers persons in the territory of idengh ; and well they may , for , in truth , there is nothing at all of it that i am to answer , it being wholly done by the order of chancery , and i having no more to do with it , then any man that hears it : the matter that stayes with me in this article , is , the alleadged warrant to mr. savill sergeant at armes , and the execution of it , for that i shall humbly beseech your lordships , i may mind you , with all humility , that that warrant is not shewed ; and , i do think , that my lords the judges do , in the tryals before them , observe , that deeds are to prove themselves in ordinary tryals betwixt men and men ; now , how much more in a tryal for life , and , which is more than that ( though my misfortune will have me to own it ) in the tryal of a peer ? the witnesses , my lords , say , they have seen such a warrant ; but , no witnesse sayes , he knowes it , and will swear it to be my hand and seal ; or , that i set my hand or seal to it ; for , it may be counterfeited , for any thing they know . for , mr. savill , upon oath , i thought ( under favour ) he ought not to be admitted against me ; for , he swears directly to justifie himself : for if there be no such warrant , he is answerable for the fact , not i. but , my lords , admit there were such a warrant , i humbly conceive , i gave your lordships a very clear and full answer to it ; i shewed you ( and proved it , as i conceive ) that the sessing of soldiers hath been a coercive means used in ireland alwayes , to enforce obedience to the kings authority ; i proved it to have been used , to fetch in the kings rents of all kinds , contributions , compositions , and exchequer rents ; i proved it to have been used , to bring in offenders and rebels , and ( as my lord ranalagh deposes ) for any unjustifiable act. sir arthur terringham , for a small debt , which appears not to be the kings debt ; my lords , nothing at all is proved against it , but negatively , the witnesses say , they did not know such a thing , they had not heard the like ; and , i think , none of your lordships had , before this cause ; and yet that thing might be too . and , my lords , i beseech your lordships , how should it be not treason , to assess soldiers for the kings debts , and yet the assessing of soldiers , on the contempt of the kings authority , should be treason ? for certainly the kings authority is of far more dignity , and more respect is to be had to it , then the getting of a few poor debts ; and , why it should be treason in one case , and not in another , methinks it is very strange . my lords , in the next place i conceive , that not in any construction this can be said to be a levying of war against the king and his people , being but the imployment of two or three soldiers , to procure obedience to his majesties government : because ( as i conceive likewise ) i had commission to make war as i saw cause , for punishing the rebels , and securing the publick peace ; and therefore , how can i be charged with that i have power to do ? the worst that can be made of it , is , an absurd execution of a power ; but , to make it treason , when i had commission and liberty so to do , methinks that is very hard : and , it was no absurd execution of a power , under favour neither , when i had the precedent of all the former deputies and lieutenants in the case . my lords , it was never complained of all the while i was there , for ought appears to your lordships ; so , that it seems there was no great innovation , nor inconvenience , for , if there were , i should have heard of it . but , the statute e. . ca. . sets a penalty upon any subject , that shall assess without the deputies authority . now i do most humbly beseech your lordships , that you would be pleased to remember that , and let me know how it should be but penal in a common person to do it , and yet treason in a deputy ? my lords , i shall likewise humbly mind your lordships for the statute , or rather two statutes , as i take it , whereby i conceive this statute that made a treason in ireland was repealed ; but , howsoever , the practice in all time hath gone quite contrary to that statute , and the best interpretation of law is the practice of law ; and therefore the practice having been otherwise , it is an argument very strong and prevalent , that the deputy , as chief governor , was never intended to be concluded within that act , nor never to be brought in by general words onely . and , that this should be a levying of war against the king , within the statute of e. . in england , surely i conceive it cannot be ; for , the burning of towns , the taking of forts , killing and slaying , that i conceive to be a levying of war ; but , this is a strange levying of war , with two or three soldiers to rest in peace and quietness , eating on contemners onely ( and not killing and slaying ) and all to procure obedience to the king , not in disobedience to his command . if to lie upon them and eate , be high-treason , in this case , what shall become of a great company of good fellowes , that at this time eate at the charge of the country ? no , my lords ; this , in the case of a private man , had been but a forcible entry , or a ryot at the most , if a man had done the same thing mr. savil did of his own authority , without the deputy , it had been but a force and ryot ; and , how shall this be in my case high treason ? the next charge , in that case , is , concerning a warrant to one piggot , another sergeant at armes , and the great and crying miscarriages and misimployments of such a war ; if there had been any , it was when i ( as your lordships may please to remember ) was out of ireland , and that was the case of bern , a very foule misdemeanor , as it proved . but , my lords , i being out of the kingdom , and no such warrant shown , i conceive i am absolutely dismissed as unto that , and have nothing to answer for it : there was nothing done while i was in the kingdom : there is no warrant of mine shown : therefore , i conceive , i stand clear of that likewise . but admit there were such a warrant , the answer goes to that as to the test ; and certainly , i hope , will fully acquit me of this fifteenth article , as treason ; and so i must , in humility , submit to your lordships wiser and better judgments . the next statute treason , is an intendment , or design , or what you will have it , for bringing over the irish army into this kingdom , to reduce it , or to do i know not what , nor i think no body else , for there is no such thing . but , my lords , for proofe in this case , you have two offered there , and no more , under favour , at all : the first proof is , the fears and doubts of my lord ranalaugh , that tells you , he fears such a thing , and doubts such a thing . my lords , if fears and doubts may be sufficient to condemn me for treason , by my faith , i fear , and doubt very much , these fears and doubts might accuse me , and condemn me of treason more then once a year ; but , my lords , his fears and doubts , he may keep to himself , i hope they shall not be brought any way to the prejudice of me ; i am , i thank god , both confident and knowing , there is no such thing . the next is the testimony of mr. treasurer vane ; and , the words mr. treasurer doth witness against me in that particular , are , as i conceive , these ; that i should say to his majesty , in an argument concerning an offensive or defensive war with scotland ; your majesty hath tryed all wayes , and are refused , and , in this extream necessity , for the safety of the kingdom , and your people , you may imploy the irish army to reduce this kingdom . my lords , to this i say , that ( under favour ) mr. treasurer was in this ( methoughts ) a little dubious ; he was something doubtful ; for , at the first , he told your lordships , he would deal plainly and clearly with you ; that he knew before whom he spoke : and then , my lords , it was but to the best of his remembrance , that these , and these words were spoken . at the last , my lords , being put to it more , he was pleased to say , that these were positively the words , or something to that effect : so , my lords , here is but a dubious and uncertain witness , under favour , and these professions of his speaking clearly and plainly , and of his consideration before whom he was ( which are something unusual clauses to men , that come to swear upon oath ) make me conceive him something dubious in this point . secondly , my lords , he is a single witness , and not onely so , but , under favour , disavowed by all the rest that were present at the council ; my lord of northumberland remembred no such thing ; my lord marquiss of hamilton remembred no such thing ; my lord treasurer remembred no such thing ; my lord cottington is very well assured he said no such thing , for if he had he should have taken offence at it himself , which he never did . my lords , in the third place , he is pleased to mention , that it was in a debate , whether an offensive or defensive war ? and , that then i should say , the king had an army in ireland , &c. my lords , it falls out in time , to be as i conceive , to be about the th of may last , not many dayes sooner or later , the army of ireland was not raised till iune following . so it seems , i should tell the king a great untruth ; that he had an army in ireland , which he might imploy for his service , before that army was raised ; for , it is a notorious thing , and any of that country knows , that the army was not raised till the fifteenth of iune , as i remember . lastly , in farther taking away of this testimony , i have proved it , by a great many witnesses , beyond all exception , that there was never any such intendment of the bringing this army into england ; nay , that the design was quite otherwise ; and this hath been apparently cleared before your lordships , by the testimony of my lord of northumberland , marquess of hamilton , sir thomas lucas , and mr. slingsby ; and might have been further justify'd , by the testimony of my lord of ormond president of munster , and sir iohn burlace , master of the ordnance in ireland , if they had been here to have been produced : so that all these laid together , the strong and clear proof on my part , the producing of a single witness which , by the proviso of edw. . cannot rise in judgment against any man for high-treason . i trust , all these laid together , i shall appear to your lordships clear and free from these two points , whereupon they enforce me to be within the compass of treason by the statute alleadged . the third treason that is laid to my charge , is upon the th article , where four musquettiers being sent to egton , by sergeant major yawerth , to call for their eight pence a day , is prest upon me , as a levying of war upon the king and his people , and to be high-treason upon the statute of e. . these be wonderful wars , if we have no greater wars then such , as four men are able to raise , by the grace of god we shall not sleep very unquietly . but , how do they prove this to be done by me ? they produce to your lordships the vvarrant of sir william pennyman ; but , had no vvarrant at all of mine to shew . sir william pennyman doth not alledge any vvarrant of mine to that purpose ; he speaks of a general vvarrant , wherein i and the deputy-lieutenants joyne , for the paying of the fortnights pay , as they call it , and that is very true ; but , that i should give vvarrant to levy by soldiers , no such thing is proved ; no such thing is shewed ; no such thing is alleadged by sir william pennyman , that best knew it ; and , should do it in his own justification , if there were such a thing : but , on the other side , i must humbly beseech your lordships , to mind you what a clear and full proofe i made thereof to you , till you were weary , though , i think , i could have continued it a year longer if need had been , that there was nothing done by me in the levying of the first months pay , or the second fortnights pay , but with full consent of the country , nothing being of constraint , nothing being of force put upon them . the second point was a vvarrant shewed to your lordships , or at least pretended from sir edward osborne the vice-president , wherein he charges them to obey and persue the substance and direction of his vvarrant , on pain of death , and this must likewise be laid to me : my lords , i confess i have faults enough , more then a good many , though i trust neither so crying nor grievous , as some would pretend them to be ; but , faults i have , more then too many , i need not take nor add to my self other mens ; but , whether this be a fault or no , i cannot undertake to judge . but certainly , i am in no fault : for , i was at — when this vvarrant issued from mr. vice-president ; and , i dare say , he is a gentleman so worthy and noble , and so great a lover of truth , that let him be examined upon oath , if he shall not absolutely clear me from privity or direction of it , i so much rely on him , that i will be thought guilty before your lordships for this charge : now , my lords , having gone over all that first part , which i thought fit to apply my self to , and that is statute-treason , there is no statute-treasons in the whole charge , nor colour or pretence thereof , save onely that of newcastle which was waved . in these , my lords , i hope i am clear before your lordships ; and , sure i am , they give me little disquiet , for , in good faith , i am clear in my own poor judgment . then comes in the second condition of treason in the charge , and that is constructive-treason ; and , it is laid down in the first article of the general charge . for , my lords , i must tell you , the first articles exhibited , are grounds and foundations whereupon the rest are gathered , and to which they resort and apply themselves severally . i do conceive my self , in a manner , by themselves , clear of seven of these , for , they have , in a manner , relinquished five of them ; so that the first article is the main article whereupon i must be touched , and that is laid in the charge thus . that i have trayterously endeavoured , to subvert the fundamental lawes and government of the realmes of england and ireland ; and have , by trayterous words , councils , and actions , declared the same ; and have advised his majesty to compel his subjects , to submit thereunto by force . my lords , i must confess i have many times with my self considered with wonder , at the wisdom of our ancestors , that set the pillars of this monarchy with that singular judgment and providence , that i have ever observed , that so oft as either the prerogative of the crown , or liberty of the subject , ecclesiastical or temporal powers exceed those modest bounds set and appointed for them , by the sobriety and moderation of former times , the exercise of it over-turn'd to the prejudice and to the detriment of the publick weale ; all the strings of this government and monarchy have been so perfectly tuned through the skill and attention of our fore-fathers , that if you wind any of them any thing higher , or let them lower , you shall infallible interrupt the sweet accord , that ought to be entertained of king and people . with this opinion i had the honour to sit many years in the commons house ; and , this opinion i have carry'd along with me exactly and intirely for fourteen years in the kings service ; ever resolving in my heart stare super vias antiquas , to prove , with equal care , the prerogative of the crown , and the liberty of the subject , to introduce the laws of england into ireland , ever setting before my self a joynt and individual well-being of king and people ( for either they must be both or neither ) which made my misfortune the greater to be now in my gray haires charged , as an under-worker against that government , a subverter of that law i most affected , and a contriver against that religion , to the truth whereof i would witness by the sealing of it with my blood. my lords , as to the latter part , concerning my religion , they have quitted me ; and i have nothing to answer to that , because it is waved ; and , i trust , my lords , i shall clear my self in the first part , concerning my being a subverter of the fundamental laws , that i shall stand clear to your lordships judgments in that case . my lords , this subversion must be by words , by councils , and by actions in ireland and in england , my lords , i shall first give you an accompt of the words , wherewithall i am charged forth of ireland ; and , the first words are in the third article , where i am charged to have said , that ireland is a conquered nation , and that the king may do with them as he pleaseth : and , to the city of dublin , that their charters are nothing worth , and bind the king no farther than he pleaseth . these are the words charged . my lords , methinks it is very strange , under favour , that this can be made an inducement to prove this charge , because i said , that ireland is a conquer'd nation , therefore i endeavour to subvert the fundamental laws when i speak the truth , for certainly it is very true , it was so . my lords , under favour , i remember very well , there was as much said here at this bar , since we began ; and yet i dare well swear , and acquit him that spake it , from intending to subvert the lawes . for , my lords , you were told , and told truely , that ireland was a conquered nation , and that it was subordinate to england ( and , god forbid that it should be otherwise ) and that they have received lawes from the conqueror . my lords , the words testified by my lord gormonstone and kilmalock to be spoken , are not the words wherewith i am charged , and so , under favour , i conceive , cannot be brought to my prejudice , as to this tryal , and they are words that are denied by me . for my words concerning their charters , your lordships remember very well , i doubt not , wherefore i said they were void , for their misuse of them , and that i told them so , not with the intent to overthrow their patents , or charters , but to make them more conformable to those things , that the state thought fit , for encrease of religion and trade , and encouraging and bringing english into that town ; and , that it was meant so , and no otherwise ; whatsoever was said , it appeares by this , their charters were never touched nor infringed , nor medled withal by me , during the time i was in that kingdom ; so that words so spoken , and to such a purpose , that they should go to prove such a conclusion , i conceive there is great difference betwixt those premises , and that conclusion . the next charge for words in ireland , is in the fourth article , where i am charged to have said , that i would neither have law , nor lawyers dispute or question my orders : and , that i would make the earl of cork , and all ireland know , that as long as i had the government there , any act of state should be as binding to the subjects of that kingdom , as an act of parliament . my lords , i humbly beseech your lordships to give me leave to say for my self , that these words of the charge are onely sworn by my lord of corke , and no man else : and , his lordship appeared a little mistaken the other day in one point , on the reading of an order of the council-board , for so it appears , as i conceive ; so that for one single witness , and he the party aggrieved by these words , to be the man that must convince me , i conceive your lordships will not think that to stand with the ordinary rules of proceeding . for the rest , to say acts of state in ireland should be binding , so long as they are not contrary to law , i confess i then conceived it had been no offence , for i thought them to be as binding , being not contrary to law ; but , the elder we grow , the wiser we may grow , if god give us the grace , and attentions ; and , so i trust i shall , by these gentlemen , that have taught me to forbear those kind of speeches hereafter . my lords , these are all the words charged against me for ireland , saving onely some things that i shall come to anon , that is charged upon me in one of the latter articles , concerning scotland ; i say , my lords , these are all the words that have slipped from me in seven years time , having been well watched , and observed , as your lordships may perswade your selves i have been ; but , in seven years time , i say , these are all the words brought to my charge : and , in truth , i conceive , a wiser man than my self might be forgiven for one error , or slip of his tongue of that nature in a years time , seeing it is in no greater measure , god be praised , than these are . my lords , these being the words that passed from me in ireland , there are other words that are charged upon me , to have been spoken in england ; but if your lordships will give me leave ( though perhaps in no very good method ) i shall not fail to touch first or last , the words in every article . the next article then that i am charged withal for words , is the second article , and these are the words that i should say , concerning the finger and the loins . my lords , i may alledge much new matter , but i will observe your lordships order punctually , by the grace of god , for what i may say in that case , if it might be admitted , i keep it to my self ; but the truth is , they that do prove the words to be thus , that i would make the little finger of the law , heavier than the kings loins ; they do not tell you the occasion of the speech , or what went before , or what after ; for my lords , if they had told the occasion ( which methinks they should , as well have remembred as the words ) it would plainly and clearly have appeared to your lordships , that sir william pennymans testimony was most true , for the occasion was such , that to have said those words , had been to have spoken against that to which i intended the discourse ; but speaking them as i said , it makes very strong for that purpose , to which i directed them ; which was to appease the countrey , and quiet the discontents ; for having been double charged with the knight-money , and therefore it was not properly threatening them , further to have provoked them . my lords , you have sir will. pennymans testimony , that it was so , and my profession ; who ( under favour ) will not speak an untruth to save my life ; i protest before god , that i say , i verily believe , or else i will never speak it indeed , and there it is they have proved it to have been said one way , we another way , we give the occasion of our speech , and disavow theirs , and so we must leave it ; and howsoever , these words so spoken , can never be drawn ( as i humbly conceive ) as premises to prove their conclusions , that therefore i am guilty of high treason , they have made me guilty of a foolish word , and that i confess , and if they please , i will confess it all the day long ; for i have been foolish all the days of my life , and i hope hereafter i shall look unto my ways , that i offend not with my tongue , for if i cannot rule it abroad , i will rule it within doors else i will never stirr abroad , but bound it so to my own business and affairs , that i trust i shall give no offence . the next article that chargeth me with words , is the article , and these be words spoke in england ; the first part of them , which concerns the bringing in of the irish army , i have spoken to already ; but in the conclusion there are other words , and shortly , the said earl of strafford returned to england , and to sundry persons declared his opinion to be , that his majesty should first try the parliament here , and if that did not supply him according to his occasions , he might then use his prerogative as he pleased , to levy what he needed , and that he should be acquitted both of god and man , if he took some other courses to supply himself , though it were against the will of his subjects . my lords , as unto this , i conceive the charge is not proved by any witness , that hath been here produced against me ; and in truth my lords , i must needs say this , under favour ( if it be an error in my judgement , i must humbly crave your lordships pardon ) through the whole cause i have not seen a weaker proof , and if i had had time to have gotten my witnesses out of ireland , i hope that should be proved , and so clearly , as nothing could be proved more ; but i must stand or fall to what i have proved , and so i do my lords ; the proof they offer for this ( as i conceive ) is the testimony of my lord primate , and his testimony is , that in some discourse betwixt us two , touching levying upon the subject in case of imminent necessity , he found me of opinion , that the king might use his prerogative as he pleased . my lords , this is ( under favour ) a single testimony , it is of a discourse between him and me , and there is not any other that witnesses any thing concerning it , so that ( under favour my lords ) i conceive this will not be sufficient to bring me any ways in danger of treason , being but a single testimony ; and my lords , it is to be thought , and to be believed ( and it were a great offence for any man to think otherwise ) that in this case any thing can please the king ( he is so gracious and good ) but what shall be just and lawful , and then there is no doubt , but so far as with justice and lawfulness , he may use his prerogative in case of imminent danger , when ordinary means will not be admitted . at most , he saith it was but an opinion , and opinions may make an heretick , but they shall not , i trust , make a traitor . the next is the testimony of my lord conway , and the words that his lordship testifies are these ; that in case the king would not be otherwise supplyed by subsidies , he might seek means to help himself , though it were against the will of his subjects . truly , my lords , if i should acknowledge these words , i do not see how they can be any way capital in my case ; but this again is but a single testimony , and there is no other that says it but himself , and if there be a good sense given to them , certainly the words may very well bear it , for i think it is a very natural motion for any man to preserve himself , though it be to the disliking of another ; and why a king should not do it as well as a subject , it is such a prerogative of kings , as i never yet heard of ; for i thought , though they had been gods on earth , yet they are men , and have affections as men , and should preserve themselves , being not only accountable for themselves , to god almighty , but also for their subjects , whose good and benefit is wrapt up and involved in theirs , and therefore the king ought more to regard his own preservation , than the common-wealth . the third is , that mr. treasurer says , that to his best remembrance i did say , that if the parliament should not succeed , i would be ready to assist his majesty any other way ; god forbid this should be any offence for to say so , either in him or me ; for i will swear , if it please you , that he said so as well as i , therefore god forbid , it should endanger either of us both ; for my lords , to say i will serve the king any other way , it is no other than what became a good and faithful servant to do , always provided , the way be good and lawful , which in this case , is always to be admitted among persons of honor and persons of trust ; and therefore admitting it not any other way , it was just , and lawful , and commendable in mr. treasurer and me ; for i vow to your lordships , we both said it , and he as fully as i. but my lords , all these come very far short , to prove the words of the charge , and this ( under favour ) is all the proof as i have taken , that i should say these words before the parliament . the next words i am charged withal , are in the article , and those , my lords are , that having tryed the affections of his people , his majesty was loose and absolved from all rules of goverment , and was to do every thing that power would admit , and that his majesty had tryed all wayes , and was refused , and should be acquitted both of god and man : for the latter part that concerns the reducing of this kingdom by the irish army , i have answered already , and therefore shall not need to repeat it my lords , mine answer ( under favour ) to those words , with your lordships noble permission , must be thus , that they are no way proved in the most material part of them , by any testimony that hath been offered , i shall , as near as i can , repeat the proofs that were offered on this point ( for these articles were brought in four or five together , ) but i shall apply the proofs severally and distinctly . the testimony first given , was the testimony of the lord of bristol , wherein his lordship says , that in a discourse , there was difference betwixt his lordship and me , in some tenents of ours . to which i answered the other day ; that in discourse we speak not always the things we think , but many times to gain from other mens arguments , to strengthen me in my opinion , i will seem to be of the contrary ; this is ordinary and familiar in all conversation , and very honest and just , so that albeit we seem to differ as we held it severally , yet if the pulse of our hearts had been touched close , both his and mine , perhaps we should have found it one and the same ; besides , his lordship said , i disliked not the discourse , we speaking of another parliament ; only i said , it was not convenient at that time , and that the present dangers would not admit a remedy of so long consideration ; and that the king must provide for the common-wealth , et salus populi suprema lex . and truly my lords , i think that it is very hard , any man should upon such a discourse , have his words turned upon him , and made use of to condemn him for high treason . my lords , i know you are so just that you would judge me , as you would be judged your selves , and whether any man that hears me , would be content , to have every word that falls in discourse betwixt man and man , to be so severely interpreted , i leave to every mans breast , what he finds in the closet of his own heart : and desire to be judged according to that . my lord went further , and says , i should say that the king was not to be mastered by the frowardness , or disaffection of some particular men , and conceives it be meant of the parliament . my lords , i say ( under favour ) these words are not within the charge , and therefore i am not to be accountable for them ; besides , it is a single testimony , and by the proviso of that statute , cannot be made use of , to the end and purpose for which they bring them . my lords , the next testimony offered for proving this charge , is the testimony of my lord of newburgh , and he sayes , that at the council-board , or in the gallery i did say , that seeing the parliament had not supplied the king , his majesty might take other courses for the defence of the kingdom . truly my lords ( under favour ) who doubts but he might , for my part , i see not where the offence is ; for another man to have said thus , for if another man will not help me , may not i therefore help my self ? ( under favour ) i conceive there is no great weight nor crime in these words , but in these likewise he stands a single testimony , there is no man that joyns with him in it ; and there is this in the whole cause , concerning the words , that i think there is not any one thing wherein two concurr . the next testimony is that of the earl of holland , and he sayes , that at the council-board i said , the parliament having denyed the king , he had advantage to supply himself other ways ; truly , my lords , i say still other wayes , being lawful wayes , and just wayes , and such wayes as the goodness of the king can only walk in , and in no other can he walk . and therefore i conceive , they be far from bringing it to so high a guilt as treason ; and this likewise his lordship expresses as the rest do , singly on his own word , as he conceives them , and not on the particular word of any other person , which is i say , the case of every one that speaks in the business ; and therefore there being so great a difference in the report and conceiving of things , it is very hard my words should be taken to my destruction , when no man agrees what they were . my lord of northumberland is the next , and he sayes , i should say at a committee for the scotish affairs , that in case of necessity , and for defence and safety of the kingdom , every thing must be done for the preservation of the king and his people . and this is the testimony of my lord in that point ; if i take any thing short , it is against my will , i give you my notes as far as i have them , and further i cannot remember them . but my lords , i say this brings it to that , which is indeed , the great part of my defence in this case : there is another agreed in this too , and it is mr treasurer , who sayes , that in argument for offensive or defensive war , i should say , that having tried all ways , and being refused , the king might in extream necessity , provide for the safety of himself and his people ; i say this brings it to that , which is principally for my defence that must qualify , if not absolutely free me from any blame ; and that is that which did proceed and follow after . my lords ( under favour ) i have heard some discourse of great weight , and of great authority ; and that is certain , the arguments that were used in the case of ship-money , by those that argued against the king in that case , say as much , and will undertake , if any man read those arguments , he shall find as much said there , as i said at council-board ; for there you shall hear , that there be certain times and seasons , when propriety ceases , as in the case of burning , where a man pulls down the next house , to preserve the whole street from being set on fire . in the case of building forts on any mans land , where it is for the publique defence of the kingdom , in both these cases , propriety doth cease : nay , he says that in war , inter arma silent leges . now my lords , these are as highly said , as any thing you have heard by me , and yet certainly is no subverting of the fundamental laws for all that ; and therefore , if a man must be judged , he must not be judged by pieces , but by all together . my lords , whatsoever i said at council-board , was led in by this case , what a king should do , in case of a foreign invasion of an enemy , when the ordinary wayes and means of levying money would not come in seasonably to prevent mischief , for what a king may do , in case of absolute necessity ; certainly in these cases , the ordinary rules do not take place ; as this was the case that let in the discourse , so i most humbly beseech your lordships ( for it is fully proved ) to remember what was the conclusion of that discourse ; which was , that after the present occasion provided for , the king was obliged in honor and justice to vindicate and free the liberty of the subject from all prejudice , and harm it might sustain in that extraordinary occasion , and that this was to be done by a parliament , and no other way but a parliament : and the king and his people could never be happy , till the prerogative of the crown , and the liberty of the subject were so bounded and known , that they might goe hand in hand together , mutually to the assistance of one another . my lords , give me that which precedes , and that which follows , ( both being proved to be the case in these words in the charge ) i think , considering these two , i should be far from having committed any great crime or offence , in saying these words . but i say as i said before , i shall be more wary for the time hereafter , if it please god to give me that grace and life , which i submit to him , and shall readily and willingly resign to his good will and pleasure ; i conceive therefore , that as these words are accompanied , they be not words that do amount to treason , and are so qualifyed , and so weakly proved , that i trust they shall not stick with your lordships . the next words that i am charged withal in england , be on the th article , and that is , that i should say , that the aldermen that would not give in the names of the able men of the city , deserved to be put to fine and ransome , and that no good would be done with them , till an example were made of them , and they were laid by the heels , and some of the aldermen hanged up . in the first part of the article , there is something , concerning my advice for raising the money , but it is not proved that i did any thing therein , but as others did , and as in former years had been done , before my coming into the kingdom : for the words , that they deserved fine and ransome , i confess them in my answer , just in the same manner as my lord of berkshire was pleased to testify them the other day , that is , that if they should not do the thing desired , they might in my opinion , be liable to fine and ransome . and my lords , admit i were mistaken in my opinion , shall it be a treason to be mistaken ? i say in my opinion , they might be lyable to fine and ransome ; but what is this to treason ? under favour , nothing at all as i conceive . for the other part , that it would never be well , till some of the aldermen be hanged ; it proves to be testified by mr. alderman garroway , and he owns it only for himself ; for it was not that some of the aldermen should be hanged , but he said at the bar , till he himself were hanged . my lords , this is a single testimony , and these words , as he says , were by me spoken to the king at the council-board , that it would never be well till some of them were hanged , meaning himself ; truly my lords , i thank god i never spake such unmannerly language all the dayes of my life , i have had more regard to my words than to say such things to my master ; and your lordships must needs be many of you by , and i am very confident , there is not one among you , that can remember any such words were spoke ; for in good faith , i did not speak them ; and my lords , before this misfortune did befall me , i should with modesty have thought my self a person on equal terms , to have been believed as well as mr. garraway , and i speak it with as great confidence as he , that i never spake the words . my lords , the next is the th article , and that is , that i should say the city of london dealt undutifully with the king , and they were more ready to help the rebels , than to help his majesty ; and if any hurt came to them , they might thank themselves . my lords , i am in the first part of this article , charged to have counselled and approved two dangerous and wicked projects , the one concerning the stay of the bullion in the tower , the other concernin copper-coyn , and no proof hath been offered , that i either compelled , or approved either of those two projects . and my lords , it is proved to your lordships , that when the merchants came , i told them , i knew nothing of the business as to the bullion , neither indeed , did i ever know there was any bullion , nor any thing of that nature in the tower. but for the words , i conceive it had been no treason for me to think at that time , that the londoners had dealt unthankfully with his majesty , i thought i might have said it freely , without danger of such a thought , as might conduce to the convicting me of treason . but whatsoever i then thought , or on what grounds soever , it may be remembred , that then i alledged , and now i speak it , when news was brought to york , that the city had sent the king two hundred thousand pounds , i took notice , that notwithstanding all i had thought formerly , they nad now made such recompence , and so cleared their faith and duty to the king , that i should be their servant , and lay my hand under their feet , as those that heard me are able to speak ; for though at first i said they had dealt unthanfully with the king , yet afterwards i was ready and willing upon all occasions , to testify the contrary of them , and to profess that i was ready to serve them upon all occasions , just , and honest , and honourable . as for my saying , that they were readier to help the rebels than the king. in truth i am a man that cannot justify a thing i do not approve , i must needs say , it was an unadvised speech ; and , i wish i had not spoke it : it seems i did speak it ; for i have reason to believe honest men when they swear , though , in truth , i remember it not : but , i have no reason or cause to think , they would take an oath otherwise then truth . i have no exception to the men , and therefore , upon their words , i must credit them , before my own memory ; but , it was an unadvised speech , and he is a wise man , and much wiser then my self , that some time offends not with his tongue . and , in truth , my lords , though there be no treason in it , they are the most unwarranted words that appeare in the whole proofe made against me . in the th there are some words , that i should speak to my lord cottington , concerning a foolish pamphlet , or gazette , which i then had in my hand ; and , it is such a toy in it self , and all the circumstances of it , that i hold it not worth the mentioning , but only that i would not forget any thing in the proofes , as near as i could , and the proofe is uncertain , for onely one man sayes it , and , the very words he cannot express : now , he that shall swear , when he cannot express the words , his testimony is but of small value ; and , he is but a single proofe at best to disprove what is deposed by sir william parkhurst , who sayes , he was by , yet heard not the words ; and , cogam sayes , he remembers not the words : and so , upon the matter , there are two against one ; and , the whole being so uncertain , i conceive it is of very little moment in your lordships judgments . my lords , these are as near as i can gather , all that are charged as unto words , spoken either in england or ireland councils , other then these i am not charged withall , and so there remains nothing but my actions ; and , if i can free them as well , as i have freed the words , i conceive then , under favour , i have fully answered all , that hath been objected against me . my lords , the first of these is the fifth article in the case of sentence of the council of war , against my lord mountnorris , and the sentence of the council of war against denwit . for that of my lord mountnorris , i have shewed plainly and clearly to your lordships , that i was no judge in the cause , but a party , and therefore not responsible for any judgment given against his lordship . i gave no vote , and so consequently am not to answer for any guilt , if there were any ; which , under favour , i conceive , since all martial law is adjudged to be against the law , i may be of another opinion ; but , formerly conceiving that that might have stood with the law , i might say something more for the justification of it , then now i do , but hower i was no party . they say , he was a peer , and it is very true ; but , as he was a peer , so he was a captain of the army ; and , in this case , we consider men as members of the army , not as peers : and , if a peer will not submit himself to an officer of the army , he must submit himself to the order of the army . besides , i say it was intended only as a discipline to him , the better to remember him to govern his tongue afterwards towards other men ; and , that there was no more prejudice fell upon him by it , but two or three days imprisonment , so there was no great animosity in the business : besides , it appeared to your lordships , that two or three dayes after we writ to the king , and obtained his pardon ; so that i conceive , the inconvenience was not very great to him , nor the proceedings such , as should make it unpardonable , or criminal in them that gave sentence upon him , whereof i was none . for that other , concerning denwitt , your lordships may remember , he was found guilty of stealing a quarter of beef , and for running from his collours , and was formerly burnt in the hand ; for that he should be proceeded against another way : but , falling out at that time , when five hundred men were going over to carlisle , and they being unwilling to be put to sea , we were inforced to those proceedings for the preventing of further mischief . and , there is another thing ; that the martial-law hath been alway in force , and executed in all times in ireland , and never so sparingly as in my time ; for , this is the only man that suffered all the time i had the honour of the government : and , i dare appeal to them that know the country , whether , in former times , many men have not been committed , and executed , by martial-law , by the deputies warrant , that were not thieves and rebels , but such as went up and down the country ? if they could not give account of themselves , the provost-martial , by direction of the deputies , using , in such case , to hang them up . i dare say there are hundreds of examples in this kind ; so that as to that , i do not justifie it ; but , i say , it is a pardonable fault ; and , that others are of course pardoned for it ; and , i trust , that what falls of course , shall not be laid upon me as high-treason ; or conducing to it . the next is the sixth article ; and that is in the case of richard rollston ; and , therein , i am said to have subverted the fundamental laws , by executing a power , and a jurisdiction , which was not warranted by law , upon a paper petition , putting out of possession of his freehold and inheritance my lord mountnorris . my lords , that sentence will appear to your lordships to be no more , then the relieving a poor man in case of equity ; and , it is proved to you to be a power , that hath been formerly practised by the deputies ; and , i humbly conceive the decree is just : so that , my lords , i must confess , it is something strange to me , that , having the kings letter to warrant me in the course of proceedings , and having the power of former deputies in like case , and doing no more therein then the lord chancellor , by the very self-same law , should do in other places : and , that which should be — done , by the chancellor , should be innocent and just , yet become high-treason when done by me , is a thing i understand not . the next is the case of tonnres ; and , that is waved by them ; and well may it be ; for , it was in a case of plantation ; there was no possession altered , and it is fully within the book of the kings instructions . the next is in the case of sir iohn gifford against the lord viscount loftus , which they have waved ; and , well they may ; for it was grounded on a letter from the king , commanding it to be heard by the deputy and council , which is clearly within the instructions , and hath been since heard by the king and council-board , and by them confirmed for a just decree . the next is the case of my lord of kildare ; and , that they may well wave too ; the proceedings being grounded upon a letter from his majesty , and nothing done but in persuance of an award between the lord digbyes house , and that house of kildare made by king iames. the next is the lady hibbots case ; and that was relief given to poor men , circumvented by practice , to the prejudice of himself . my lords , i had power to hear that cause , and all causes of that nature , by the king's letter , and according to the practice of former deputies : and , i conceive , it will appear , when it comes to be heard , to be a just and fair decree , i do not any way question that , though i remember little of the business . but , at the worst , this is but an over-exercising of a jurisdiction ; and , that it should be high-treason in a judge to exceed his jurisdiction , i must confess i never heard it . i told your lordships the other day , bono iudici est amplior iurisdictio . but , that it should be high-treason to enlarge jurisdiction , is a perilous point ; and , if it be so , it befits your lordships , and all judges , to be well certained what you may do , least by going too far , you fall into great inconveniences . but , my lords , i say ( under favour ) that all these , if they had been done without any manner of authority , had not been a subversion , but rather a diversion of the law : it could not be properly said , to be the subverting of the fundamental lawes , though it might be a diverting , and so long as i keep the rule of the law , and do the same things that another man does , in a more legal way , i mean in a more warrantable place ; i say , my doing of the same thing in an improper place , is not a subversion , but a diversion of the law : if you will bring in the thames about lambeth , to come in again below the bridge , the river is the same , though the course be diverted to another place : so the fundamental law is the same , though the course be diverted to another place ; i say , the fundamental law is the same , onely it is carry'd in another pipe : and , shall this be said to be a subverting ? under favour , as the river is the same , so the law is the same ; it is not a subversion , but a diversion . nor doth it skill where justice be done ( i mean so far as it concerns the subjects interest ) for , so long as he hath justice speedily , and with least charge , his end is complyed with , and it concernes not himself , whether he hath it in the kings bench , or common-pleas ; so he hath it speedily , and with the least charge : and therefore , as long as the lawes are the same , though executed by several persons , and in several places , i cannot conceive it to be a subversion : and , i shall humbly beseech your lordships , to take care , that while these straynes are put upon me , to make this personal charge against me , ye do not through my sides , wound the crown of england , by taking that power from the deputy , which must of necessity be lodged in him , if you will have that kingdom depend upon the crown of england , which i hold , in all wisdom and judgment , ought to be cared for : therefore , i beseech you , prejudice not the deputy , to the disabling him from serving the crown hereafter , by beating down me , who am this day to answer before you ; for , if you take away the power of the deputy , you shall not have that kingdom long depend upon this crown ; for , it rests under god and his majesty , and must principally rest upon the care of him that is intrusted with that charge : and , therefore , give me leave , on the behalfe of the crown of england , to beseech you to be wary of lessening the deputies power too much ; for , if you do , i fear you will find it a great disservice to the crown . my lords , the next thing i am charged with is the th article ; that is , a warrant of assistance to the bishop of down and connor , and , for that , your lordships see there was but one of them , and have heard it proved , that before my time such warrants were frequent indeed , no man was denyed them : but , my lords , it must likewise be remembred , that of my own accord , i did recall it , before i was ever questioned for it ; and , it is very hard , if he that mends his faults , should be afterward punished for it ; for , it is a degree of repentance , and , it is hard , that a man should be finally condemned after repentance : and therefore , my lords , i trust , seeing there was but one of them , seeing i did my self recall it , so willingly , as soon as i found the inconvenience , i hope that will be easier remitted to me . the next is the th article , that concernes the customes , and that is rather to be looked on as a fraud , then as a treason , as i conceive it , there is no treason in the business sure : but , i have proved , the bargain was honestly made ; that there was more offered for it by me then any other ; that i had it upon no other termes , then it was formerly let to others ; that i was constrain'd to it whether i would or no ; and then , my lords , if the bargain , by the increase of that kingdom , proove a good and profitable bargain ; it is a very hard case , that if it be increased through the kings wisdom and goodness , and the kingdoms growth , trade and traffick , that this should be turned upon me , as an argument , to make me guilty of treason . i never found a good bargain should be so charged , so long as it was honest and fair . but , whereas they press , that i have gained three hundred thousand pounds estate by it ; it is a very strange mistake : for , the king has out of it his rent of or thousand pounds a year , and five entire parts of eight clear to himself ; and therefore it was a strange calculation , and much mistaken by them that gave the information of it to the gentlemen . for the book of rates it was none of mine , but was agreed on before my time ; i had nothing to do with it , and therefore have nothing to answer for it : and , when it shall come to be proved , it will appear , that the rates were set fairly and justly , and equal betwixt king and people , according to the law , whatsoever hath been said to the contrary . the next is the th article , concerning pipe-staves , and that is by them waved ; and well they may , for the plain truth is , if it had been proceeded in , it would have appeared , that there is come fifteen hundred pounds gain to the king , and four hundred pounds loss to my self , and preserving of woods , and that is all that would be made from that article . the next is the business of the tobacco , which is not applyable to treason in any kind ; but because i would be clear in every mans judgment that hears me , i beseech your lordships to call to mind , it was the petition of the commons-house of ireland , that the grant of impost on the tobacco should be taken in , and converted to the kings use ; so that whatsoever was done , was persuing their intention and desire . that there was no way but this , to make benefit and profit of it , is most manifestly shewed , that there was a proclamation in england of the like nature , and a command of the king to proceed in it accordingly ; and an act of parliament transmitted here , for passing it to the crown , according to the intention of the commons-house ; and , for the greatness of the bargain , no proofe hath been offered to your lordships , but only the estimate of a merchant ; and , how far your lordships will be guided by the estimate of a merchant i known not ; but , i have had trial of some of them , and their estimates never hold ; for , they have alwayes told me , i shall gain much , and when i came to the point , i gained nothing : and if sir george ratcliffe should be sworn to the point , he should say confidently , that we are fourscore and six thousand out of purse , and ; when he came out of ireland , but fourscore thousand pounds received ; and this is the profit estimated by the great merchants , at a hundred and forty thousand pounds a year : but , at the worst , it is but a monopoly , and a monopoly of the best condition , because it was begun by a parliament . i have seen many monopolies question'd in parliament , and many overthrown in parliament , but , i never heard a monopoly charged for a treason . my lords , the next is the th article , and that is concerning the flax business ; for that , my lords , if i had thought it any way concerning me , i could have cleared it in a very great measure ; but , i had no private interest in the business , much less of private profit ; but onely an endeavour and desire , to bring in the trade of linnen-cloth to that kingdom , which would be much advantage to both kingdoms , and no prejudice to this kingdom , which a woollen trade would have been , if set up these . and , the prolcamation , when it was found not so well liking to the people , was called in of our own accord , before it was question'd , and so laid aside , and given over . for any matter of private benefit , you have no witness but crokay , a fellow brought out of prison ; here is but a single witness , and a sorry one ; a fellow , who , by misbehaving and misusing the trust committed to him , was turned out ; and , upon the turning of him out , the proclamation was absolutely called in : and , now he comes to be a witness , being himself the onely offended in the cause . but , i beseech your lordships , to think , i have not lived with so mean a heart in the world , that i should look to gain four nobles more or less , upon a cart load of flax ; it is very well known my thoughts have carryed me free enough from gaining so poor and petty a matter , as that is . i know nothing in the world of it , no more than the man in the moon ; but , when it comes to be heard , your lordships will find me extreame pure in that ; for , i thank god i have clear hands i assure you . the th is waved by them , concerning an unlawful oath given to masters and officers of ships ; and , it might very well be waved ; for , i conceive it to be warranted by the law : sure i am , it is both the practice of england and ireland , and hath alwayes , and at all times , been practised and used , and is onely for the preventing of fraud and deceipt in merchants , by not paying the kings duties and customes . the th is answered already i hope . the th doth charge upon me certain propositions i made , before i went into ireland : and , in good faith , my lords , you may see , how short-sighted men may be to their own actions ; for , i did very well believe , i should never have reaped any thing from those propositions but thanks ; i am sure they were well received then , when they were offered to his majesty and the council ; and , i must truely confess , i never thought they should be objected against me as a fault . my lords , the proposition was , that no man should be allowed to complain of injustice or oppression in ireland , unless he first addressed himself to the deputy : my lords , there was no original intent , but onely to prevent clamours , and unjust vexations of the kings ministers there ; that , after men had received judgment of the kings courts , they might not presently come , and , by clamours , call over a chief justice , or a chancellor , or president , to answer here , and be at charge of five or six hundred pounds , unless they acquaint the deputy with it , that they might be righted in the place ; and , this is charged against me as a great crime . truely , my lords , i shall confess , and amend any thing , and trust other judgments rather than mine own ; but , i see not how this can charge me , as intending to subvert the laws of the land , but rather to preserve them . the other concernes a proclamation , that none shall depart the kingdom without license . my lords , for that i have shewed , that no man out of that kingdom , can come without license , but upon very great penalties . i have shewed likewise , it was the desire of their own agents some or years since , that there might be such a restraint , and none might come over without license . i have shewed you likewise , the instructions to my lord of faulkland , by which he was commanded , in persuance of that desire , that none should come over without his license : i have shewed the express command of his majesty to me , to have it so . i have shewed you likewise the reasons of state , why it should be so , to prevent that practice and intelligence , which might otherwise arise betwixt them of that nation , serving under tir-connell and o neale ; and likewise to prevent the going over , and transplanting the prime nobility and gentry to seminaries , and other such places , there to be brought up : and therefore , in reason of state , it is a restraint , and ought so to be . but , having these grounds of law , warrant , practice , former instruction and all , why this should be brought to me in particular charge , to convince me of endeavouring the subversion of the laws , i must submit to your lordships . my lords , there is , in the latter part of this , another charge , concerning the sentenceing of one parry , who was sentenced ( as i conceive ) very justly ; and , i have no more to answer for in that sentence , then any of the rest , having but a single voice ; and , that i should answer for all , i confess is something hard . but , there is no manner of testimony in the world in this , save the testimony of parry himself : now , if parry , the man offended , his testimony shall be taken against the judge , i know no man can be safe , and other testimony is not offered : and therefore i trust that that will easily fall off of it self . the th is likewise waved ; and is , in truth , of no great consequence , one way or other , and therefore i shall give no other answer to it ; it was well waved , and had been as well left out , having no great matter in it . the th is likewise waved , but it is that which sticks very heavy upon me ; and , wherein i find my self as much afflicted , as in any one part of the charge : for , my lords , here i am charged up and down , to endeavour to draw upon my self a dependance of the papists , in both kingdomes of ireland and england ; and , that i have , during the time of my government , restored diverse mass-houses in dublin and elsewhere , that have been by precedent deputies taken away . i am likewise charged to have drawn to my self a dependence of the irish army , eight thousand , all papists ; and likewise to have miscarried my self in a commission intrusted with me , before my going into ireland , concerning compositions for recusants . this is a very heavy and grievous charge , and hath raised a great deal of ill opinion against me in the world , to be a fafourer and contriver with papists , and i know not whom , against the religion i profess , a greater and fouler crime there cannot be against god or man ; and yet this goes in print all over the world : and , when it comes to the point , here is no proof , nor any part of the charge made good . and , therefore , since it is not made good by the charge , i humbly desire i may be vindicated in your lordships noble opinions , and the opinions of all that hear me , that i am , in my religion , what i ought to be ; and , that which i will dye in , and maintain against all the world : and , i am so far from contriving any thing to the hinderance of it , that , if god give me life , i will serve it , and prevent any inconvenience to it : and , my religion and duty to god is so dear , and precious to me , that there is nothing in this world , but i shall lay it down , as straw and stubble , under my feet , and trample upon it , rather , then in any kind , forfeit that : but , in the mean time , i suffer , and must be content . my lords , the next is the th article ; and , that was , for framing a new and unusual oath , which the scots did take in ireland , to give pledges of their allegiance to the king ; i have shewed you for that , that the oath was framed by the kings express command in ianuary , before the oath was given , which was , i think , in may. and , i did then humbly conceive it lawful for me so to do , being onely to take from them a pledge of their allegiance to the king. i confess , i conceived such an oath might have been lawfully administred to the people ; and shewed , that the same oath was administred here in england , to those of that nation , i shewed that it was taken in ireland voluntarily : and , i humbly represent to your lordships the time when this oath was required , when the king and both the armies were in the field , lodged not far from one another : and , whereas it is said , it should oblige the clergy in ecclesiastical matters ; if your lordships call to mind , the very oath it self cleares that point , requiring onely a temporal obedience and allegiance , in a time of that danger and distraction , given by the kings own command , and to no other purpose . and , my lords , the proofes are nothing at all on the matter ; sir iames mountgomery tells you a tale , not much material ; nor mr. maxwell , nor sir iohn clotworthy ; there is nothing at all in it concerning treason . stewarts sentence remains onely to be answered in this article ; for that , i conceive it was justly and fairly given , as i then conceived . i was one of the rest , and nothing was intended by that decree , but his reformation ; and , when he had pleased to have taken the oath , he might have been released of the sentence , and sent home again quietly . the next is the th article ; wherein i am charged to be a provoker , and incendiary of a war against his majesties subjects of the scotch nation ; and , that i should say of them , they were rebels and traitors : and , being about to come into england , that i should say , i would root out of the kingdom the scotish nation root and branch . my lords , i shall need no more to say in this , for my being an incendiary ; i think , by the proofe , it hath been clearly made appear to your lordships , that i gave no opinion , but such as others did in the like case . it is proved by my lord traquair , and my lord treasurer , and might have been proved by many more , if it had been needful . for the words , that i should say , the rooting out the scots root and branch , they are onely testify'd by one single witness ; salmon the school-master swears it , and no man else but he ; and , i hope , my lords , that when your lordships do call to mind , how he is crost by his fellow witness iohn loftus , your lordships will be satisfied ; he swears i will persecute them to the blood , and root them out root and branch , and , i cannot tell what : but , iohn loftus said indeed , that i said , i hope that such of the scotish nation , as would not submit to the ecclesiastical government , i would root out stock and branch : a wonderful difference between these two . but , my lords , it was testified by mr. secretary manwaring then present , that i neither spoke the one nor the other , but as in my answer i did truely and faithfully deliver it ; i said , that unless they would take that oath of allegiance , and secure the king of their allegiance in that point , i hope i should not see any of them stay in that kingdom , that refused it : and , there is no proofe in the world but the school-master ; and , i hope , your lordships will not take him to be a good and valid proof to convince me in this case , being a person of no greater quality , and crossed by his fellow witness : for my self , i do absolutely say , i was so far from wishing ill to that nation , or any dissension or division between them , that i never desired other in my heart and soul , but a firm peace through the kings dominions : my counsels tended to that ; and , if i might seem to begin in a contrary way , yet the last resort was , to bring all to quietness , and so , that it should be without blood. and , i dare say , there be them that heard me say it many a time in the kings council , that the king should be in nothing so much sparing and tender , as to draw any blood in that quarrel ; i dare say , many that heard it will justifie me in it : and , if your lordships will give me leave , i do think i have something that might procure your lordships beliefe that it was so ; for , at that time , my fortune ( though now by misfortune it be mean enough ) was such , as i needed not desire to shuffle the cards , and deale a new ; and , especially , when nothing was to be got but blows : and , that i trust will be an argument to your lordships , that nothing was desired by me so much as peace ; and that under gods goodness , and the protection and benefit of his majesties scepter , i might enjoy the little estate my ancestors left me ; for , it is certainly true , whatever the world may think to the contrary , it is very little better from what my father left me ; something it is , and the most part of the improvement of it was , before i came to serve the king ; and yet i have had more from the king then i deserved in all kinds , and all the whole service of my life , were it never so many years , could not merit , nor deserve from him , the hundred part of what i had from his favour . my lords , mr. treasurer vane sayes , i was in the argument for an offensive , and he for a defensive war , for a war both of us : and , i beseech your lordships , how should it be more treasonable for me , to be for an offensive , then for him to be for a defensive war ? for a war there must be , and the difference was not great : and , for a counsellor to deliver his opinion , and have that turned upon him as capital , to sweep from the world himself and his posterity , is a very hard case , to say no more of it . the next article is the th ; wherein i am charged to be an enemy to parliaments ; a breaker of parliaments ; and did , by that means , sow ill affections betwixt the king and his people . my lords , this is more fully charged in a subsequent article then this ; for , this is but onely for breaking of the last parliament , that i should advise it to be called , with an intent to break it , which is very unlikely ; for , that nothing in the world could be of so happy effect to me , as the success of that meeting ; and yet i must destroy , and disadvantage my self in that , then which , nothing could be of more advantage then the success of that parliament . the th article is answered already ; and , the th likewise . in the th article comes in that of the parliament more fully ; and there i am charged falsly , and treacherously , and malitiously , to have declared before his majesties privy-council , that the parliament of england had forsaken the king , and given him the advantage to supply himself otherwayes ; and having so malitiously slandered the said house of commons , that i did , with the advice of the archbishop of canterbury , and the lord finch , publish a false and trayterous book , called , his majesties declaration of the causes of dissolving the last parliament , &c. this goes very heavy upon me in the world , that i should be a breaker of parliaments ; a counsellor against parliaments . my lords , there is nothing proved of it ; and , i hope i shall be cleared by your lordships , and these noble gentlemen , and all the world , that i had no such thing in my heart . for the point of the declaration , i was at that time sick in my bed , and could do nothing in it , and therefore i trust i shall be acquitted as to that : as to the breaking of the parliament , or any ill-will to parliaments , i have ever honour'd them ; and , far be it from me to wish , that they may not be frequent , for the good of the king and kingdom ; but , as oft as you shall have it urged , and prest against me , that i should be an endeavourer to subvert the fundamental laws of the land in this kind , i beseech your lordships , call to mind what hath been proved , that at all publick debates , at council , and privately apart , i have humbly represented to his majesty , from time to time , that parliaments are the onely way to settle himself in quietness in the kingdom , and to acquire prosperity and happiness to himself and his people : and , when you shall hear them press upon me , that i have endeavoured to subvert the fundamental lawes of the land , i beseech your lordships to call to mind , how frequently and servently i have advised the king , to call for parliaments , which , under god , is the great protection , and defence of the fundamental lawes of the kingdom . to the th i have answered already , and to the th likewise . the next is the th ; and , for that , i can say no more , then that your lordships have heard the proofes for the levying of money ; it hath been cleared to your lordships , that nothing was done by me , but by consent of the country , with their unanimous good liking , and for their benefit and advantage : being done so , and for so good ends , as i trust that shall not be enforced against me ; and , it is very strange to me why it should be expected , that if two armies be in the field , one against the other ( as there was at york ) that they should be govern'd with as much quietness , as an atturney walking with his writs at his girdle , betwixt the kings bench and the common-pleas . for , armies cannot be govern'd without some latitude in this kind : inter arma silent leges : rightly applyed , there is truth in that . but , i did nothing in the business , i did nothing by compulsion , but by the voluntary liking of the parties themselves : and therefore , i conceive , that shall not be charged upon me as treason . there remains now the th article ; and , that is the onely bloody article , if it had been , or could be made good , that is in the whole charge ; for , there i am charged , out of ill and wicked purposes ( and , indeed , what can be worse than treason ) to have betrayed newcastle into the power of the scotch army ; and likewise , to have betrayed the kings army at newburn , to a dishonourable retreat . my lords , if either of these had been true , i should have saved your lordships the labour . i would have given judgment against my self , that had been certain : but , my lords , never was any man more innocent , therefore they may very well wave it . have i been all this while charged as an incendiary ? and , am i now come in the conclusion to be charged as a confederate ? it is wonderful strange ! certainly your articles fight one against another in this ; for , how can i be an incendiary in one part , and a conspirator with them that charged me , to be an incendiary in the other part ? in good faith , i have not been very kindly dealt withal by my confederates , if they be confederates , to charge me as an incendiary , that did them that service and help , as to deliver into their hands a town of such consequence as that is . no , my lords , i wish all happiness to the nation ; but , i can never wish so to it , as that they should take one of the kings towns in england , if i could have helped it . my lords , it was lost before i had the charge of the army , i had nothing to do in the business , nor am i to give any accompt of it , nor is any thing proved . and , as to the defeate at newburn , you yet fight one article with another , methinks in that too ; for , i am charged to be the man , that delivered up newcastle , and yet , all the world knows , that nothing could save it from being lost , but the taking away from the scots the passages at that time : so , that i should use all means to prevent men from doing that , which i meant to do for them , is very strange to me . here is no probability , and certainly little truth in the whole business , as concerning my confederating with the scots , either for the one or the other . and so , my lords , i am come to the end of these articles , that were for my further impeachment ; i have gone over them all : and , out of these now there remains , that other second treason , that i should be guilty of endeavouring , to subvert the fundamental lawes of the land , in the first of those seven articles . my lords , that those should now be treason together , that are not treason in any one part , and accumulatively to come upon me in that kind ; and , where one will not do it of it self , yet woven up with others , it shall do it ; under favour , my lords , i do not conceive , that there is either statute-law , or common-law , that hath declared this , endeavouring to subvert the fundamental lawes , to be high treason . i say , neither statute-law , nor common-law written , that i could hear of ; and , i have been as diligent to enquire of it as i could be : and , your lordships will believe i had reason so to do . and , sure it is a very hard thing , i should here be question'd for my life and honor , upon a law that is not extant , that cannot be shewed . there is a rule that i have read out of my lord cook , non apparentibus & non existentibus eadem est ratio . iesu ! my lords , where hath this fire lay'n all this while , so many hundred years together , that no smoak should appear till it burst out now , to consume me and my children ? hard it is , and extream hard , in my opinion , that a punishment should precede the promulgation of a law ; that i should be punished by a law subsequent to the act done . i most humbly beseech your lordships , take that into consideration ; for , certainly it were better a great deale to live under no law , but the will of man , and conform our selves in humane wisdom , as well as we could ; and , to comply with that will , then to live under the protection of a law , as we think , and then a law should be made to punish us , for a crime precedent to the law : then i conceive no man living could be safe , if that should be admitted . my lords , it is hard in another respect , that there should be no tokens set upon this offence , by which we may know it ; no manner of token given ; no admonition by which we might be aware of it . if i pass down the thames in a boat , and run and split my self upon an anchor , if there be not a buoy to give me warning , the party shall give me damages ; but , if it be marked out , then it is at my own peril . now , my lords , where is the mark set upon this crime ? where is the token by which i should discover ? if it be not marked , if it lie under-water , and not above , there is no humane providence can prevent the destruction of a man presently and instantly . let us then lay aside all that is humane wisdom , let us rely onely upon divine revelation ; for , certainly , nothing else can preserve us , if you will condemn us before you tell us where the fault is , that we may avoid it . my lords , may your lordships be pleased to have that regard to the peerage of england , as never to suffer your selves to be put upon those moot-points , upon such constructions , and interpretations , and strictness of law , as these are , when the law is not clear nor known : if there must be a tryal of wits , i do most humbly beseech your lordships to consider , that the subject may be of something else , then of your lives and your honors . my lords , we find , that in the primitive time , on the sound and plain doctrine of the blessed apostles , they brought in their books of curious art , and burnt them . my lords , it will be likewise , under favour ( as i humbly conceive ) wisdom and providence in your lordships , for your selves and posterities , for the whole kingdom , to cast from you into the fire , those bloody and misterious volumes , of constructive and arbitrary treasons , and to betake your selves to the plain letter of the statute , that tells you where the crime is , that so you may avoid it ; and let us not , my lords , be ambitious to be more learned in those killing arts , then our fore-fathers were before us . my lords , it is now full two hundred and forty years since any man ever was touch'd , to this height , upon this crime , before my self ; we have lived , my lords , happily to our selves at home , we have lived gloriously abroad to the world ; let us be content with that which our fathers left us , and let us not awake those sleepy lyons to our own destruction , by ratling up of a company of records , that have lay'n for so many ages by the wall , forgotten , or neglected . my lords , there is this that troubles me extreamly , least it should be my misfortune to all the rest ( for my other sins , not for my treasons ) that my precedent should be of that disadvantage ( as this will be , i fear , in the consequence of it ) upon the whole kingdom . my lords , i beseech you therefore , that you will be pleased seriously to consider it , and let my particular case be so looked upon , as that you do not , through me , wound the interest of the common-wealth : for , howsoever those gentlemen at the bar say , they speak for the common-wealth , and they believe so ; yet , under favour , in this particular , i believe i speak for the common-wealth too ; and , that the inconveniencies and miseries that will follow upon this , will be such , as it will come , within a few years , to that which is exprest in the statute of henry the fourth , it will be of such a condition , that no man shall know what to do , or what to say . do not , my lords , put greater difficulty upon the ministers of state , then that with chearfulness they may serve the king and the state ; for , if you will examine them by every grain , or every little weight , it will be so heavy , that the publick affaires of the kingdom will be left waste , and no man will meddle with them , that hath wisdom , and honor , and fortune to lose . my lords , i have now troubled your lordships a great deal longer , then i should have done ; were it not for the interest of those pledges , that a saint in heaven left me , i would be loth , my lords — ( here his weeping stopt him ) what i forfeit for my self it is nothing ; but , i confess , that my indiscretion should forfeit for them , it wounds me very deeply . you will be pleased to pardon my infirmity ; something i should have said ; but , i see i shall not be able , and therefore i will leave it . and now , my lords , for my self , i thank god i have been , by his good blessing towards me , taught , that the afflictions of this present life , are not to be compared with that eternal . weight of glory , that shall be revealed for us hereafter : and so , my lords , even so , with all humility , and with all tranquility of mind , i do submit my self clearly and freely to your judgments ; and , whether that righteous judgment shall be to life , or to death , te deum laudamus , te dominum confitemur . the speech or declaration of john pym , esq my lords , many dayes have been spent , in maintenance of the impeachment of the earl of strafford , by the house of commons , whereby he stands charged with high treason ; and your lordships have heard his defence with patience , and with as much favour as justice would allow . we have passed through our evidence , and the result of all this is , that it remains clearly proved , that the earl of strafford hath endeavoured by his words , actions , and counsels , to subvert the fundamental laws of england and ireland , and to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannical government . this is the envenomed arrow for which he inquired , in the beginning of his replication this day , which hath infected all his blood ; this is that intoxicating cup , ( to use his own metaphor ) which hath tainted his judgement , and poisoned his heart : from hence was infused that specifical difference , which turned his speeches , his actions , his counsels , into treason ; not cumulativè , as he exprest it , as if many misdemeanors could make one treason ; but formally and essentially . it is the end that doth inform actions , and doth specificate the nature of them , making not only criminal , but even indifferent words and actions to be treason , being done and spoken with a treasonable intention . that which is given to me in charge , is to shew the quality of the offence , how hainous it is in the nature , how mischievous in the effect of it , which will best appear , if it be examined by that law , to which he himself appealed , that universal , that supream law , salus populi : this is the element of all laws , out of which they are derived , the end of all laws , to which they are designed , and in which they are perfected ; how far it stands in opposition to this law , i shall endavour to shew in some considerations , which i shall present to your lordships , all arising out of the evidence which hath been opened . the first is this , it is an offence comprehending all other offences ; here you shall find several treasons , murthers , rapines , oppressions , perjuries . the earth hath a seminary virtue , whereby it doth produce all herbs and plants , and other vegitables : there is in this crime a seminary of all evils hurtful to a state ; and if you consider the reasons of it , it must needs be so : the law is that which puts a difference betwixt good and evil , betwixt just and unjust ; if you take away the law , all things will fall into a confusion , every man will become a law to himself , which in the depraved condition of humane nature , must needs produce many great enormities , lust will become a law , and envy will become a law , covetousness and ambition will become laws ; and what dictates , what decisions such laws will produce , may easily be discerned in the late government of ireland : the law hath a power to prevent , to restrain , to repair evils ; without this , all kind of mischief and distempers will break in upon a state. it is the law that doth entitle the king , to the allegiance and service of his people ; it entitles the people to the protection and justice of the king. it is god alone who subsists by himself , all other things subsist in a mutual dependence , and relation . he was a wise man that said , that the king subsisted by the field that is tilled : it is the labour of the people that supports the crown : if you take away the protection of the king , the vigor and cheerfulness of allegiance will be taken away , though the obligation remain . the law is the boundary , the measure betwixt the kings prerogative , and the peoples liberty ; whilst these move in their own orbs , they are a support and a security to one another ; the prerogative a cover and defence to the liberty of the people , and the people by their liberty are enabled to be a foundation to the prerogative , but if these bounds be so removed , that they enter into contestation and conflict , one of these mischiefs must ensue : if the prerogative of the king overwhelme the liberty of the people , it will be turned into tyranny ; if liberty undermine the prerogative , it will grow into anarchy . the law is the safeguard , the custody of all private interest , your honors , your lives , your liberties and estates , are all in the keeping of the law ; without this , every man hath a like right to any thing , and this is the condition into which the irish were brought by the earl of strafford : and the reason which he gave for it , hath more mischief in it , than the thing it self , they were a conquered nation . there cannot be a word more pregnant and fruitful in treason , than that word is . there are few nations in the world , that have not been conquered , and no doubt but the conqueror may give what laws he pleases to those that are conquered : but if the succeeding pacts , and agreements , do not limit and restrain that right , what people can be secure ? england hath been conconquered , and wales hath been conquered , and by this reason , will be in little better case than ireland : if the king , by the right of a conqueror , gives laws to his people ; shall not the people by the same reason , be restored to the right of th e conquered , to recover their liberty if they can ? what can be more hurtful , more pernicious to both , than such propositions as these ? and in these particulars is determined the first consideration . the second consideration is this ; this arbitrary power is dangerous to the kings person , and dangerous to his crown : it is apt to cherish ambition , usurpation , and oppression in great men , and to beget sedition and discontent in the people ; and both these have been , and in reason must ever be , causes of great trouble and alteration to princes and states . if the histories of those eastern countreys be perused , where princes order their affairs according to the mischievous principles of the earl of strafford , loose and observed from all rules of government , they will be found to be frequent in combustions , full of massacres , and of the tragical ends of princes . if any man shall look into our own stories , in the times when the laws were most neglected , he shall find them full of commotions , of civil distempers ; whereby the kings that then reigned , were always kept in want and distress ; the people consumed with civil wars ; and by such wicked counsels as these , some of our princes have been brought to such miserable ends , as no honest heart can remember , without horror and earnest prayer , that it may never be so again . the third consideration is this , the subversion of the laws ; and this arbitrary power , as it is dangerous to the kings person , and to his crown , so is it in other respects , very prejudicial to his majesty in his honor , profit , and greatness ; and yet these are the gildings and paintings that are put upon such counsels ; these are for your honor , for your service ; whereas in truth they are contrary to both : but if i shall take off this varnish , i hope they shall then appear in their own native deformity ; and therefore i desire to consider them by these rules . it cannot be for the honor of the king , that his sacred authority should be used in the practise of injustice and opprssion ; that his name should be applyed to patronize such horrid crimes , as have been represented in evidence against the earl of strafford ; and yet how frequently , how presumptuously his commands , his letters , have been vouched throughout the course of this defence ? your lordships have heard , when the judges do justice , it is the kings justice , and this is for his honor , because he is the fountain of justice : but when they do injustice , the offence is their own ; but those officers and ministers of the king , who are most officious in the exercise of this arbitrary power , they do it commonly for their advantages , and when they are questioned for it , then they fly to the kings interest , to his direction : and truly my lords , this is a very unequal distribution for the king , that the dishonor of evil courses should be cast upon him , and they to have the advantage . the prejudice which it brings to him in regard of his profit , is no less apparent , it deprives him of the most beneficial , and most certain revenue of his crown , that is , the voluntary aids and supplies of his people ; his other revenues , consisting of goodly demeans , and great mannors , have by grants been alienated from the crown , and are now exceedingly diminished and impaired : but this revenue , it cannot be sold , it cannot be burdened with any pensions or annuities , but comes intirely to the crown . it is now almost fifteen years since his majesty had any assistance from his people ; and , these illegal wayes of supplying the king were never prest with more violence and art , then they have been in this time ; and yet i may , upon very good grounds , affirm , that in the last fifteen years of queen elizabeth , she received more , by the bounty and affection of her subjects , then hath come to his majesties coffers , by all the inordinate and rigorous courses which have been taken . and , as those supplies were more beneficial , in the receipt of them , so were they like in the use and imployment of them . another way of prejudice to his majesties profit , is this : such arbitrary courses exhaust the people , and disable them , when there shall be occasion , to give such plentiful supplies , as otherwise they would do . i shall need no other proofe of this , then the irish government under my lord of strafford , where the wealth of the kingdom is so consumed , by those horrible exactions and burdens , that it is thought , the subsidies lately granted , will amount to little more than half the proportion of the last subsidies . the two former wayes are hurtful to the kings profit , in that respect which they call lucrum cessans , by diminishing his receipts ; but , there is a third , fuller of mischiet ; and , it is in that respect , which they call damnum emergens , by increasing his disbursements : such irregular and exorbitant attempts upon the liberties of the people , are apt to produce such miserable distractions and distempers , as will put the king and kingdomes to such vast expences and losses in a short time , as will not be recovered in many years : we need not go far to seek a proof of this , these two last years will be a sufficient evidence , within which time i assure my self , it may be proved , that more treasure hath been wasted , more loss sustained by his majesty and his subjects , then was spent by queen elizabeth in all the war of tyron , and in those many brave attempts against the king of spain , and the royal assistance which she gave to france , and the low countries , during all her reign . as for greatness , this arbitrary power is apt to hinder and impair it , not onely at home , but abroad . a kingdom is a society of men conjoyned under one government , for the common good : the world is a society of kingdomes and states . the kings greatness consists not onely in his dominion over his subjects at home , but in the influence which he hath upon states abroad ; that he should be great even among kings , and by his wisdom and authority , so to incline and dispose the affairs of other states and nations , and those great events which fall out in the world , as shall be for the good of mankind , and for the peculiar advantage of his own people . this is the most glorious , and magnificent greatness , to be able to relieve distressed princes , to support his own friends and allies , to prevent the ambitious designs of other kings ; and , how much this kingdom hath been impaired in this kind , by the late mischievous counsels , your lordships best know ; who , at a near distance , and with a more clear sight , do apprehend these publick and great affairs , then i can do . yet thus much i dare boldly say , that if his majesty had not , with great wisdom and goodness , forsaken that way , wherein the earl of strafford had put him , we should , within a short time , have been brought into that miserable condition , as to have been useless to our friends , contemptible to our enemies , and uncapable of undertaking any great design , either at home or abroad . a fourth consideration is , that this arbitrary and tyrannical power , which the earl of strafford did exercise in his own person , and to which he did advise his majesty , is inconsistent with the peace , the wealth , the prosperity of a nation ; it is destructive to justice , the mother of peace ; to industry , the spring of wealth ; to valour , which is the active virtue , whereby the prosperity of a nation can only be procured confirmed , and enlarged . it s not only apt to take away peace , and so intangle the nation with wars , but doth corrupt peace , and puts such a malignity into it , as produceth the effects of war. we need seek no other proof of this , but the earl of straffords government , where the irish , both nobility and others , had as little security of their persons or estates in this peaceable time , as if the kingdom had been under the rage and fury of war. and as for industry and valour , who will take pains for that , which when he hath gotten , is not his own ? or who fight for that wherein he hath no other interest , but such as is subject to the will of another ? the antient encouragement to men , that were to defend their countreys , was this , that they were to hazard their person , pro aris & focis , for their religion , and for their houses ; but by this arbitrary way which was practised in ireland , and counselled here ; no man had any certainty , either of religion , or of his house , or any thing else to be his own ; but besides this , such arbitrary courses have an ill operation upon the courage of a nation , by embasing the hearts of the people : a servile condition does for the most part beget in men a slavish temper and disposition . those that live so much under the whip , and the pillory , and such servile engines , as were frequently used by the earl of strafford , they may have the dregs of valour , sullenness and stubborness , which may make them prone to mutinies and discontents ; but those noble and gallant affections , which put men to brave designs and attempts for the preservation or enlargement of a kingdom , they are hardly capable of . shall it be treason to embase the kings coin , though but a piece of twelve-pence , or six-pence ? and must it not needs be the effect of a greater treason , to embase the spirits of his subjects , and to set a stamp and character of servitude upon them , whereby they shall be disabled to do any thing , for the service of the king and commonwealth ? the fifth consideration is this , that the exercise of this arbitrary government in times of suddain danger , by the invasion of an enemy , will disable his majesty to preserve himselfe and his subjects from that danger . this is the only pretence by which the earl of strafford , and such other mischievous counsellors , would induce his majesty to make use of it ; and if it be unfit for such an occasion , i know nothing that can be alledged in maintainance of it . when war threatens a kingdom by the coming of a forreign enemy , it is no time then to discontent the people , to make them weary of the present government , and more inclinable to a change ; the supplies which are to come in this way , will be unready , uncertain , there can be no assurance of them , no dependance upon them , either for time or proportion : and if some money be gotten in such a way , the distractions , divisions , distempers , which this course is apt to produce , will be more prejudicial to the publique safety , than the supply can be advantagious to it , and of this we have had sufficient experience the last summer . the sixth , that this crime of subverting the laws , and introducing an arbitrary and tyrannical government , is contrary to the pact and covenant betwixt the king and his people ; that which was spoken of before , was the legal union of allegiance and protection ; this is a personal union by mutual agreement and stipulation , confirmed by oath on both sides : the king and his people are obliged to one another in the nearest relations , he is a father and a child , is called in law pars patris : he is the husband of the common-wealth , they have the same interests , they ara inseparable in their condition , be it good or evil ; he is the head , they are the body ; there is such an incorporation as cannot be dissolved , without the destruction of both . when justice thorp in edward the iii. time , was by the parliament condemned to death for bribery , the reason of that judgement is given , because he had broke the kings oath , not that he had broke his own oath , but he had broken the kings oath , that solemn and great obligation , which is the security of the whole kingdom : if for a judge to take a small sum , in a private cause , was adjudged capital , how much greater was this offence , whereby the earl of strafford hath broken the kings oath in the whole course of his government in ireland , to the prejudice of so many of his majesties subjects in their lives , liberties , and estates , and to the danger of all the rest ? the doctrine of the papists fides non est servanda cum haereticis , is an abominable doctrine ; yet that other tenet , more peculiar to the jesuits , is more pernicious , whereby subjects are discharged from their oath of allegiance to their prince , whensoever the pope pleaseth ; this may be added to make the third no less mischievous and destructive to humane society , than either of the rest . that the king is not bound by that oath which he hath taken , to observe the laws of the kingdom , but may when he sees cause , lay taxes and burthens upon them without their consent , contrary to the laws and liberties of the kingdom , this hath been preached and published by divers ; and this is that which hath been practised in ireland by the earl of strafford , in his government there , and endeavoured to be brought into england , by his counsel here . the seventh is this ; it is an offence that is contrary to the end of government ; the end of government was to prevent oppressions ; to limit and restrain the excessive power and violence of great men , to open the passages of justice , with indifferency towards all ; this arbitrary power is apt to induce and encourage all kind of insolencies . another end of the government , is to preserve men in their estates , to secure them in their lives and liberties ; but if this design had taken effect , and could have been setled in england , as it was practised in ireland , no man would have had more certainty in his own , then power would have allowed him ; but these two have been spoken of before ; there are two behind more important , which have not yet been touched . it is the end of government , that virtue should be cherish'd , vice supprest ; but where this arbitrary and unlimited power is set up , a way is open , not only for the security , but for the advancement and encouragement of evil ; such men as are apt for the execution and maintenance of this power , are only capable of preferment ; and others who will not be instruments of any unjust commmands , who make a conscience to do nothing against the laws of the kingdom , and liberties of the subject , are not only not passable for employment , but subject to much jealousie and danger . it is the end of government , that all accidents and events , all counsels and designs should be improved to the publique good : but this arbitrary power is apt to dispose all , to the maintainance of it self . the wisdome of the council table ; the authority of the courts of justice ; the industry of all the officers of the crown , have been most carefully exercised in this ; the learning of our divines , the jurisdiction of our bishops have been moulded and disposed to the same effect , which though it were begun before the earl of straffords imployment , yet it hath been exeedingly furthered and advanced by him . under this colour and pretence of maintaining the king's power and prerogative , many dangerous practises against the peace and safety of the kingdom , have been undertaken and promoted . the increase of popery , and the favours and encouragement of papists have been , and still are a great grievance and danger to the kingdom : the innovation , in matters of religion , the usurpations of the clergy , the manifold burthens and taxations upon the people , have been a great cause of our present distempers and disorders ; and yet those who have been chief furtherers and actors of such mischiefs , have had their credit and authority from this ; that they were forward to maintain this power . the earl of strafford had the first rise of his greatness from this ; and in his apology and defence , as your lordships have heard , this hath had a main part . the royal power and majesty of kings is most glorious in the prosperity and happiness of the people ; the perfection of all things consists in the end , for which they were ordained , god only in his own end , all other things , have a further end beyond themselves , in attaining whereof , their own happiness consists : if the means and the end be set in opposition to one another , it must needs cause an impotency and defect of both . the eighth consideration , is the vanity and absurdity of those excuses and justifications , which he made for himself , whereof divers particulars have been mentioned in the course of this defence . . that he is a counsellor , and might not be questioned for any thing which he advised according to his conscience ; the ground is true , there is a liberty belongs to counsellors , and nothing corrupts counsels more than fear ; he that will have the priviledge of a counsellor , must keep within the just bounds of a counsellor ; those matters are the proper subjects of counsel , which in their times and occasions , may be good or beneficial to the king or common-wealth ; but such treasons as these , the subversion of the laws , violation of liberties , they can never be good or justifiable by any circumstance , or occasion ; and therefore his being a counsellor , makes his fault much more hainous , as being committed against a greater trust , and in a way of much mischief and danger , least his majesties conscience and judgement ( upon which , the whole course and frame of his government , do much depend ) should be poysoned and infected with such wicked principles and designes : and this he hath endeavoured to do , which by all laws , and in all times hath in this kingdom been reckoned a crime of an high nature . . he labours to interest your lordships in his cause , by alleadging , it may be dangerous to your selves , and your posterity , who by your birth are fittest to be near his majesty , in places of trust and authority , if you should be subject to be questioned for matters delivered in council . to this was answered , that it was hoped their lordships would rather labour to secure themselves , and their posterity , in the exercise of their virtues , than of their vices , that so they might , together with their own honor and greatness , preserve the honor and greatness , both of the king and kingdom . . another excuse was this , that whatsoever he hath spoken , was out of good intention . sometimes good and evil , truth and falshood , lye so near together , that they are hardly to be distinguished : matters hurtful and dangerous , may be accompanied with such circumstances , as may make it appear useful and convenient , and in all such cases , good intention will justify evil counsel ; but where the matters propounded are evil in their own nature , such as the matters are , wherewith the earl of strafford is charged , to break a publique faith , to subvert laws and government : they can never be justied by any intentions , how good soever they be pretended . . he alleadgeth it was a time of great necessity and danger , when such counsels were necessary for preservation of the state. necessity hath been spoken of before , as it relates to the cause ; now it is considered as it relates to the person ; if there were any necessity , it was of his own making ; he by his evil counsel had brought the king into a necessity , and by no rules of justice can be allowed to gain this advantage by his own fault , as to make that a ground of his justification which is a great part of his offence . . he hath often insinuated this , that it was for his majesties service , in maintainance of that sovereign power , with which he is intrusted by god , for the good of his people . the answer is this , no doubt but that sovereign power wherewith his majesty is intrusted for the publique good , hath many glorious effects , the better to inable him thereunto ; but without doubt , this is none of them , that by his own will , he may lay any tax or imposition upon his people , without their consent in parliament . this hath now been five times adjudged by both houses , in the case of the loans , in condemning commissions of excise , in the resolution upon the saving offered to be saved to the petition of right , in the sentence against manwaring , and now lutell , in condemning the shipmoney ; and if the sovereign power of the king , can produce no such effect as this , the allegation of it is an aggravation , and no diminution of his offence , because thereby he doth labour to interest the king against the just grievance and complaint of the people . . this counsel was propounded with diverse limitations and provisions ; for securing and repairing the liberty of the people . this implies a contradiction to maintain an arbitrary and absolute power , and yet to restrain it with limitations and provisions , for even those limitations and provisions , will be subject to the same absolute power , and to be dispensed in such manner , and at such time , as it self shall determine ; let the grievances and oppressions be never so heavy , the subject is left without all remedy , but at his majesties own pleasure . . he alleadgeth , they were but words , and no effect followed ; this needs no answer : but , that the miserable distempers into which he hath brought all the three kingdomes , will be evidence sufficient , that his wicked counsels have had such mischievous effects within these two or three last years , that many years peace will hardly repair those losses , and other great mischiefs which the common-wealth hath sustained . . these excuses have been collected out of the several parts of his defence , perchance some others are omitted , which i doubt not have been answered by some of my collegues , and are of no importance , either to perplex or to hinder your lordships judgment touching the hainousness of this crime . the th consideration is this , that if this be treason , in the nature of it , it doth exceed all other treasons in this , that in the design and endeavour of the author , it was to be a constant and permanent treason ; other treasons are transient , as being confined within those particular actions and proportions , wherein they did consist , and those being past , the treason ceaseth . the powder treason was full of horror and maglignity , yet it is past many years since : the murder of that magnanimous and glorious king , henry the fourth of france , was a great and horrid treason ; and so were those manifold attempts against queen elizabeth of blessed memory ; but , they are long since past ; the detestation of them onely remains in histories , and in the minds of men , and will ever remain : but , this treason , if it had taken effect , was to be a standing perpetual treason , which would have been in continual act , not determined within one time or age , but transmitted to posterity , even from one generation to another . the th consideration is this , that as it is a crime odious in the nature of it , so it is odious in the judgment and estimation of the law : to alter the setled frame and constitution of government , is treason in any state . the laws , whereby all other parts of a kingdom are preserved , should be very vain and defective , if they had not a power to secure and preserve themselves . the forfeitures inflicted for treason , by our law , are of life , honor and estate , even all that can be forfeited ; and , this prisoner having committed so many treasons , although he should pay all these forfeitures , will be still a debtor to the common-wealth : nothing can be more equal , then that he should perish by the justice of that law , which he would have subverted ; neither will this be a new way of blood , there are marks enough to trace this law to the very original of this kingdom : and if it hath not been put in execution , as he alleadgeth , this years , it was not for want of law , but , that all that time hath not bred a man , bold enough to commit such crimes as these ; which is a circumstance , much aggravating his offence , and making him no whit less liable to punishment , because he is the onely man , that in so long a time hath ventured upon such a treason as this . it belongs to the charge of another , to make it appear to your lordships , that the crimes and offences proved against the earl of strafford , are high-treason by the lawes and statutes of this realme , whose learning and other abilities are much better for that service : but , for the time and manner of performing this , we are to resort to the direction of the house of commons , having in this , which is already done , dispatched all those instructions which we have received ; and , concerning further proceedings , for clearing all questions and objections in law , your lordships will hear from the house of commons in convenient time . the argument of mr. lane , the prince's attorny-general , on the behalf of the earl of strafford , in point of law , my lords , i shall not at all touch the matter of law , further than to clear your judgments of one statute only , viz. e. . because when the same was alleadged by the lord strafford , in his own defence , that not being convict of the letter thereof , he could not be convict of treason : remember the salvo of the statute was much insisted upon , by those from the house of commons , as much conducing to their ends. my lords , i will first speak of the statute it self , and then of it's salvo or provision . the statute is , that if any man shall intend the death of the king , his queen , their children ; kill the chancellor , or judge upon the bench , imbase the kings coyn , or counterfeit the broad-seal , &c. he shall be convict , and punisht as a traytor : that the lord strafford comes not within the letter of this statute , is not so much as once alleadged , nor indeed it cannot be with any reason ; all that can be said is , that by relation , or by argument ( a minore ad majus ) he may be drawn into it ; yet , that this cannot be , i humbly offer these considerations . first . this is a declarative law , and such are not to be taken by way of consequence , equity , or construction , but by the letter only ; otherwise they should imply a contradiction to themselves , and be no more declarative laws , but lawes of construction , or constitutive . secondly . this is a penal law , and such ( if our grounds , hitherto unquestion'd , hold good ) can admit of no constructions , or inferences : for penalties are to perswade the keeping of known lawes , not of lawes conjectural , ambiguous , and by consequence ( which perhaps the most learned may not , in their disputes , question , much less the subject ( who is not obliged to interpret the statute ) doubt of , in the point of obedience ; yea , rather , without any doubt , he is rather to obey the letter of the statute , and conceive ( and that truly ) that he is not liable to the penalty . thirdly , we have a notable law , eliz. cap. . whereby it is declared , that the bringing in of bulls from rome , to stir up the subject to mutiny and rebellion , shall be punished as treason : now , if by interpretation , or by consequence , this sence might have been thrust upon the preceding statutes , the making of this had been superfluous ; yea , the persons then charged with that crime , might have been impeached of treason , even before the making of this act. anno edw. . we have a statute , declaring , that for a servant to kill his master , is an act of treason ; and , in the th year of the same king , a process of treason was framed against a man for killing his father , grounded upon the same argument a minore ad majus : but , it was found , and the sentence is yet in records , that although in the th year of edward the third , that argument might have been admitted , yet in the th it could not , by reason of the declarative law , intervening in the th year ; and , this case comes very home to the point in law. my lords , i will not demand , what kind of offence it may be , for a man to subvert the fundamental laws of the kingdom ? the crime , doubtless , is unnatural and monstrous , and the punishment must keep the same proportion ; only i presume to offer these few things to your lordships consideration . . that one , or more acts of injustice , whether malitiously or ignorantly done , can , in no sence of law , be called , the subversion of the fundamental laws ; if so , as many judges ( perhaps ) so many traytors ; 't is very incident to mans nature to erre ; nor doth the lord strafford plead his innocency in oversights , but in treason . . i do remember the case of iohn de la pole duke of suffolk ; this man , in the th of henry the sixth , was charged by the house of commons with articles of treason , and those too very like to these against my lord strafford . i. that he had given the king bad advices . ii. that he had embased his coyn. iii. that he had sessed men of war. iv. that he had given out summary decrees . v. that he had imposed taxes . vi. that he had corrupted the fountain of justice . vii . that he had perswaded the king to unnecessary war , and the giving over of anjou in france . and , for all these , though he was charged with high treason , for wronging the right of the subject , and subverting the fundamental lawes of the kingdom , yet , after a long agitation , the matter was found , by the lords of the parliament , not to imply treason , but only felony : add to this another , who , in the d of henry the eighth , was charged for subverting the english laws , and yet no treason charg'd upon him . add to both , the charge of richard larkes , pleaded at the common-pleas , who was charged with treason , for subverting the law , but convicted onely of felony : by which you may see , my lords , what to this time hath been subverting the lawes . . it is very considerable , that the lord strafford is not charged to have subverted , but onely to have intended to subvert the fundamental lawes ; and this , i conceive , if there were no more , might keep him free from that statute , the th of edward the third . for , although , as touching the king , his queen and children , intention is treasonable ; yet , in all other things there mentioned , there must be action besides intention : for , it is not said , if a man do intend to kill a chancellor , it shall be treason , but if he doth kill him , and if he doth actually counterfeit the broad seal : and , although a man should prepare a furnace , make ready his stamp , melt his bullion , yet if he gives not the kings impression upon the coyn , all his intentions , yea , his preparations will not serve to make up a treason . ye see therefore my lords , that the body of the statute cannot stick against the lord strafford , neither in letter nor consequence , this is not , that must not be : all that can be said , is , that the fact may be treason by the common law. for my part , i profess my ignorance , who ever thought the common law might declare , but never make a treason ; it might be presupposed , that there is a statute whereupon to build a declaration ; and therefore , to say there is no statute for it , it is to say , it is no treason at all : the statute ever makes the treason , and to be declared treason , either by common law , or by parliament , are but two different wayes of proceedings , and must both resolve into one principle ; nay , and which comes home to the point , in the of edward the third ; to kill a man , employed in the kings war , was treason : and , the d , to kill the king's messenger was treason , by declaration of the common law , but alwayes by reason of the statute ; yet none of these are treasons , but felonies onely , because of the intervening statute of the th of edward the third ; such hath ever been thought the force of its letter and declaration : and so i will leave it , and a word or two of the salvo , which is this , that because all particulars could not be enumerated , therefore what the parliament should declare to be treasonable in time to come , should be punished as a treason . and , according to this reservative , in the th year of king richard the second , one charged before the kings bench , was afterwards referred to the parliament ; and there , though the fact was not contained in the body of the statute , yet because of the proviso afore-mentioned , it was adjudged treason . in the th year of the same king , the duke of ireland , and nevill archbishop of york , were impeached of high-treason by gloucester , arundel , and warwick , and , notwithstanding the statute , were convicted thereof by the salvo ; but , in the of the same richard the d the tide turned , and the king had such a hand with the parliament , that the sentence was recalled , and those three noblemen themselves were adjudged traytors ; again in the of hen. the fourth his successor , that revocation of the richard the second was repealed , and the sentence of the th of his reign established : such were the tossings too and fro of treason , and all because of that uncertain proviso . therefore it was , that in the same parliament , the hen. the fourth , a petition was preferred by the nobility , to have treason limited within some statute ; because they knew not what to speak , or what to do for fear thereof : and , in chap. . an act was made upon this petition , that the salvo should be holden repealed in all times to come , and nothing esteemed treason , but what was literally contained in the th of edward the third . and therefore it is said in the records , that there was great joy at the making of this act ; in that the drawn sword , hanging over every mans head , by this slender thread of a consequence or illation , was removed by that act. add to this , that in the first of queen mary , cap. . the same is repeated , that no man shall be punished in life or estate , as a traytor , but for the crime contained in the statute of edward the third , without the least mention of the pretended salvo . the earl of northumberlands case comes nigh to the point , he was charged with treason the th of henry the fourth , and if the statute of the henry th , chap. . whereby this proviso is repealed , had not intervened , no doubt he had been condemned of treason ; but , he was onely convict of felony , and that because he could not be drawn within the letter of the statute of the th of edward the third . and , i dare confidently say it , that since that act was made , the henry the fourth , chap. . whereby the proviso is repealed , no man hath ever been declared a traytor , either by king or parliament , except it were upon that , or some other statute literally and declaratively taken . these two things i do offer to your lordships considerations , that the lord strafford cannot be impeached of treason , by the statute of th edward the third ; and , that the salvo , contained in the same , stands repealed , almost two hundred years agoe . and this is all , i conceive , to be necessary for that statute , which was alledged by the lord strafford , in his defence , for matter of law. the recorder said , he could add nothing to what the former councel had spoken , for matter of law ; but , if their lordships would state unto him any further questions , he was ready to give his resolution according to his best ability . mr. st. john's argument of law ; concerning the bill of attainder , april th , . my lords , the knights , citizens , and burgesses of the commons house of parliament , have passed a bill , for the attainting of thomas earl of strafford of high-treason . the bill hath been transmitted from them to your lordships ; it concerns not him alone , but your lordships and the commons too , though in different respects . it concerns his lordship the highest that can be in the penal part ; so it doth , on the other side , as highly concern your lordships and the commons , in that which ought to be the tendrest , the judicatory within that , that judge not them who judge him , and in that which is most sacred amonst men , the publick justice of the kingdom . the king is to be accounted unto , for the loss of the meanest member , much more of one so near the head. the commons are concerned in their account for what is done , your lordships in that which is to be done . the business therefore of the present conference , is to acquaint your lordships with those things , that satisfy'd the commons in passing of this bill ; such of them as have come within my capacity , and , that i can remember , i am commanded from the commons at this time , to present unto your lordships . my lords , in judgment of greatest moment , there are but two wayes for satisfying those , that are to give them ; either the lex lata , the law already established , or else the use of the same power for making new laws , whereby the old at first received life . in the first consideration of the setled laws , in the degrees of punishment , the positive law , received by general consent , and for the common good , is sufficient , to satisfie the conscience of the judge , in giving judgment according to them . in several countries , there is not the same measure of punishment , for one and the same offence ; willful murder in ireland it is treason , and so is the wilfull burning of a house , or a stack of corne : in the isle of man it is felony to steal a hen , but not to steale a horse ; and yet the judge in ireland , hath as just a ground to give judgement of high-treason in those cases there , as here to give judgment onely of felony ; and in the isle of man of felony for the hen , as here of pety-larceny . my lords , in the other consideration of using the supreame power , the same law gives power to the parliament to make new lawes , that enables the inferiour court , to judge according to the old . the rules that guides the conscience of the inferiour court is from without , the prescripts of the parliament , and of the common-law ; in the other , the rule is from within , that salus populi be concerned , that there be no wilful oppression of any of the fellow-members , that no more blood be taken then what is necessary for the cure , the lawes and customes of the realm as well enable the exercise of this , as of the ordinary and judicial power . my lords , what hath been said , is because that this proceeding of the commons by way of bill , implies the use of the meer legislative power , in respect new lawes are for the most part past by bill . this , my lords , though just and legal , and therefore not wholly excluded ; yet it was not the onely ground that put the commons upon the bill , they did not intend to make a new treason , and to condemn my lord of strafford for it ; they had in it other considerations likewise , which were to this effect . first , the commons knew , that in all former ages , if doubts of law arose of great and general concernments , the parliament was usually consulted withal for resolution , which is the reason that many acts of parliament are onely declarative of the old law , not introductive of a new , as the great charter of our liberties ; the statute of five and twentieth year of edward the third of treasons ; the statute of the prerogative , and of late the petition of right ; if the law were doubtful in this case , they perceived the parliament ( where the old way is altered , and new lawes made ) the fittest judge to clear this doubt . secondly , my lords , they proceeded this way , to obviate those scruples and delayes , which through disuse of proceedings of this nature , might have risen in the manner and way of proceedings , since the statute of the first of hen. . cap. . and more fully in the roll , number . the proceedings of parliament have usually been upon an indictment first found , though in cases of treason particularly mentioned in the statute of edw. . which had not been done in this case ; doubts likewise might rise , for treasons , not particularly mentioned in the statute of edw. . whether the declaratory power of parliament be taken away , in what manner they were to be made , and by whom , they find not any attainders of treason in parliament , for near this years , but by this way of bill ; and again , they know that whatsoever could be done any other way , it might be done by this . thirdly , in respect of the proofs and depositions , that have been made against him ; for first , although they knew not , but that the whole evidence which hath been given at the barr , in every part of it , is sufficiently comprehended within the charge , yet if therein they should be mistaken , if it should prove otherwise , use may justly be made of such evidence in this way of bill , wherein so as evidence be given in ; it 's no way requisite that there should have been any articles or charge at all ; and so in the case of double testimony upon the statute of the of edw. . whether one direct witness , with others , to circumstances , had been single or double testimony ? and although single testimony might be sufficient to satisfy private consciences , yet how far it would have been satisfactory in a judicial way , ( where forms of law are more to be stood upon ) was not so clear ; whereas in their way of bill , private satisfaction to each mans conscience is sufficient , although no evidence had been given in at all . my lords , the proceeding by way of bill , it was not to decline your lordships justice in the judicial way , in these exigends of the state and kingdom ; it was to husband time , by silencing those doubts , they conceived it the speediest and surest way . my lords , these are in effect , the things the commons took into their consideration , in respect of the manner and way of proceeding against the earl. in the next place i am to declare unto your lordships , the things they took into their considerations , in respect of the matter and merits of the cause , and they are comprehended within these six heads . . that there is a treason within the statute of of edw. iii. by levying of war upon the matter of the th article . . if not by actual levying of war , yet by advising , and declaring his intention of war , and that by savil's warrant , and advice of bringing over the irish army upon the matter in the article ; then intending of a war , if not within the clause of levying of a war , in the statute of th edw , . yet within the first treason , of compassing the death of the king. . if either of these two single acts , is within the statute of th edw. . yet upon putting all together , which hath been proved against him , that there 's a treason within the first clause , of compassing the death of the king. et si non prosunt singula juncta juvant . . that he hath sessed , and laid soldiers upon the subjects of ireland , against their will , and at their charge , within the irish statute of the th year of hen. th . that both person and thing are within the statute ; that the statute remains in force to this day , that the parliament here hath cognizance of it , and that even in the ordinary way of judicature , that if there be a treason and a traitor , that the want of jurisdiction , in the judicial way , may justly be supplied by bill . . that his endeavouring to subvert the fundamental laws and government of the realms of england and ireland ; and instead thereof , to introduce a tyrannical government against law , is treason by the common-law ; that treasons at the common-law are not taken away by the statute of th edw. . hen. th . &c. nor any of them . . that as this case stands , it 's just and necessary to resort to the supream power in parliament , in case all the rest should fail . of these six , five of them are treason , within the compass of the laws already established , three within the statute of th edw. . and one within the irish statute , the other by the common-law of england . if but any one of these six considerations hold , the commons conceive , that upon the whole matter , they had good cause to pass the bill . my lords , for the first , of levying war , i shall make bold to read the case to your lordships before i speak to it , it 's thus . the earl did by warrant under his hand and seal , give authority to robert savil , a sergeant at arms , and his deputies , to sesse such numbers of soldiers , horse and foot , of the army in ireland , together with an officer , as the sergeant should think fit , upon his majesties subjects of ireland , against their will ; this warrant was granted by the earl to the end , to compell the subjects of ireland to submit , to the unlawful summons and orders made by the earl upon paper petitions , exhibited to him in case of private interest between party and party ; this warrant was executed by savil and his deputies , by sessing of soldiers , both horse and foot , upon divers of the subjects of ireland against their wills , in warlike manner , and at divers times the soldiers continued upon the parties , upon whom they were sessed , and wasted their goods , until such time as they had submitted themselves , unto those summons and orders . my lords , this is a levying war within the statute of th edw. . the words of the statute are , if any man do levy war against our lord the king in his realm , this is declared treason . i shall endeavour in this to make clear to your lordships , . what shall be a levying of war , in respect of the motive or cause of it . . what shall be said a levying of war , in respect of the action or thing done . . and in the third place , i shall apply them to the present case . it will be granted in this levying of war , that forces may be raised , and likewise used in warlike manner , and yet no levying of war within the statute , that is , when the forces are raised and employed upon private ends , either of revenge or interest . before this statute in edw. the . time , the title of a castle was in difference between the earls of hereford and gloucester , for the maintaining of the possession on the one side , and gaining of it on the other ; forces were raised on either side of many hundred men ; they marched with banners displayed , one against another . in the parliament , in the th year of edward . this was adjudged only trespass , and either of the earls fined marks apiece . after the statute in hillary term , in the th year of edw. the . in the kings-bench rot. . nicholas huntercome in warlike manner with men , armed amongst other weapons , with guns ( so antient , as appears by that record , they were ) did much spoil in the mannor of the abby of dorchester , in the county of oxford , this was accounted no treason , and so it hath been held by the judges , that if one or more town-ship , upon pretence of saving their commons , do in a forcible and warlike manner throw in inclosures , this is only a riot , no treason . the words of the statute edw. . clear this point , that if any man ride armed openly or secretly with men at arms , against any other , to kill and rob , or to detain him until he hath made fine and ransome for his deliverance , this is declared not to be treason , but felony or trespass , as the case shall require : all the printed statutes which have it covertly or secret , are misprinted , for the words in the parliament roll , as appears in the th . are , discovertment on secretement , open or secretly . so that my lords , in this of levying war , the act is not so much to be considered , but as in all other treasons and felonies , quo animo , with what intent and purpose ? my lords , if the end be considerable in levying war , it may be said that it cannot be a war , unless against the king , for the words of the statute are , if any man levy war against the king. that these words extend further than to the person of the king , appears by the words of the statute , which in the beginning declares it to be treason , to compass and imagine the death of the king , and after other treasons , this is to be declared to be treason , to levy war against the king ; if levying of war , extend no further than to the person of the king , these words of the statute are to no purpose , for then the first treason of compassing the kings death , had fully included it before , because that he which levies war against the person of the king , doth necessarily compass his death . it 's a war against the king , when intended for alteration of the laws or government in any part of them , or to destroy any of the great officers of the kingdom . this is a levying war against the king. . because the king doth protect and maintain the laws in every part of them , and the great officers , to whose care , he hath in his own stead , delegated the execution of them . . because they are the kings laws , he is the fountain from whence in their several channels , they are derived to the subject : all our indictments run thus , trespasses laid to be done , contra pacem domini regis , the kings peace for exorbitant offences , though not intended against the king's person , against the king , his crown and dignity . my lords , this construction is made good , by divers authorities of great weight , ever since the statute of th of edw. . downwards . in r. the . time , sir tho. talbot conspired the death of the dukes of glocester and lancaster , and some other of the peers ; for the effecting of it , he had caused several people in the county of chester , to be armed in warlike manner in assemblies in the parliament , held in the th year of r. . n o . sir thomas talbot being accused of high treason for this : it 's there declared , insomuch as one of them was lord high steward of england , and the other high constable , that this was done in destruction of the estates of the realm , and of the laws of the kingdom , and therefore adjudged treason , and the judgement sent down into the kings bench , as appears , easter term , in the th year of r. . in the kings bench rot. th . these two lords had appeared in the th of r. in maintainance of the act of parliament made in the year before , one of them was of the commissioners appointed by parliament , and one of the appealors of those who would have overthrown it . the duke of lancaster likewise was one of the lords , that was to have been indicted of treason , for endeavouring the maintenance of it ; and therefore conspiring of their deaths , is said to be in destruction of their laws ; this there is declared to be treason , that concerned the person of the king and common-wealth . in that great insurrection of the villains , and meaner people , in richard the ii. time , they took an oath , quod regi & communibus fidelitatem servarent , to be true to the king and commons , and that they would take nothing but what they paid for , punished all theft with death ; here 's no intendment against the person of the king ; the intent was , to establish the laws of villanage and servitude , to burn all the records , to kill the judges : this in the parliament of the th year of r. . no. , . the first part , is declared to be treason against the king , and against the law. in the th year of r. . in parliament , the raising of forces against the commissioners , appointed by act of parliament the year before , adjudged treason by all the judges . the statute i mo mary cap. . enacts , that if or more shall endeavour by force , to alter any of the laws or statutes of the kingdom , he shall from such a time there limited , be adjudged only as a felon . this act was to continue but to the next parliament , it is expired , it shews by the words only , that the offence was higher before the making it . my lords , in queen elizabeths time , grant and divers apprentices of london , to the number of . rose , and assembled at tower-hill , carried a cloak upon a pole instead of a banner , their intent was to deliver divers apprentices out of prison , that had been committed upon a sentence in the star-chamber for riots , to kill the lord mayor of london , and for setting prizes on victuals . in trinity term , eliz. divers of the judges were consulted withal , and resolved , that this was a levying of war against the queen , being intended against the government and officers of the queen , and therefore grant and others were executed as traitors . afterwards , in that queens time , divers of the county of oxford consulted , to go together from house to house in that county , and thence to london and other parts , to excite them to take up arms , for the throwing in of all inclosures throughout england . nothing was done , nor no assembly . yet the statute of eliz. cap. . during the queens life , made it treason , to intend , or advise to levy war against the queen . in easter term of eliz. all the judges of england met about the case , it was resolved by them , that this was a war intended against the queen ; they agreed , that if it had been of one township or more , upon private interest , and claim of right of common , it had not been treason , but this was to throw in all inclosures through the kingdom , whereunto these parties should pretend no claim . that it was against the law , in regard that the statute of merton gave power of inclosures in many cases : upon this resolution bradsaw and burton were executed at aynestow-hill in oxfordshire , the place where they intended the first rendezvous . so that my lords , if the end of it be to overthrow any of the statutes , any part of the law and setled government , or any of the great officers intrusted with the execution of them , this is a war against the king. my lords , it will be further considerable , what shall be accounted a levying of war , in respect of the actions and things done ; there 's a design to alter some part of the laws , and present government , for the effecting thereof , people be provided of arms , gathered together into troops , but afterwards march not with banners displayed , nor do bellum percutere , whether the army themselves , and gathering together upon this design , be a war , or such prosecution of the design with force , as makes it treason within the statute ? first , if this be not a war , in respect that it necessarily occasions hostile preparations on the other side . secondly , from the words of the statute , shall levy war , and be thereof probably attainted of open deed , by people of their condition ; altho the bare conspiring be not an open deed , yet whether the arming and drawing of men together , be not an open declaration of war ? in sir thomas talbots case before cited , in the seventeenth year of r. ii. the acts of force are expressed in the parliament roll ; that he caused divers of the people of the county of chester , to be armed in a warlike manner in assemblies , here is no marching , no banners displayed . in the eighth year of hen. viii . william bell and thomas lacy in com. kanc. conspired with thomas cheyney , called the hermite of the queen of faries , to overthrow the law and customs of the realm ; and for the effecting of it , they with two hundred more , met together , and concluded upon a course of raising greater forces in the county of kent , and the adjacent shires : this adjudged treason ; these were open acts. my lords , for the application of both these , to the case in question : first , in respect of the end of it ; here was a war against the king , it was to subvert the laws , this being the design ; for the effecting of it , he assumed to his own person an arbitrary power over the lives , liberties , and estates of his majesties subjects , and determined causes upon paper-petitions , at his own will and pleasure ; obedience must be forced by the army , this is declared by the warrant . my lords , if it be said that the warrant expresseth not any intent of subverting the laws ; it expresseth fully one of the principal means , whereby this was to be done , that is , obedience to his arbitrary orders upon paper-petitions ; this was done in reference to the main design . in the cases of the town of cambridge and sir william cogan , they have formerly been cited to your lordships upon other occasions , the things in themselves were not treason , they were not a levying of war. in that of cambridge , the town met together , and in a forcible manner broke up the university-treasury , and took out of it the records , and evidences of the liberties of the university over the town . in the other , they of bridgewater marched to the hospital , and compelled the master of the hospital , to deliver unto them certain evidences that concerned the town , and forced him to enter into a bond of l. these if done upon these private ends alone , had not been a treason , as appears by the very words of the statute of edw. . before-mentioned , of marching openly or secretly . but my lords , these of cambridge and bridgewater , they were of the conspiracy with the villains , as appears in the parliament-roll of the first year of rich. the . numb . . and . where the towns of cambridge and bridgewater , are expresly excepted out of the general pardon made to the villains ; this being done in reference to that design of the villains , of altering the laws ; this was that which made it treason . if the design went no further , than the enforcing obedience to these paper orders made by himself , it was sufficient it was to subvert one fundamental part of the law ; nay , in effect the whole law ; what use of law , if he might order and determine of mens estates at his own pleasure ? this was against the law notoriously declared in ireland . in the close roll in the tower , in the th year of edward the . a writ went to the justices in ireland ( that kingdom at that time was governed by justices ) declaring , that upon petitions they were not to determine any titles between party and party , upon any pretence of profit whatsoever to the king. in the eight and twentieth year of hen. the th . chap. . suits in equity not before the deputy , but in chancery ; suits at common-law , not before him , but in cases of life in the kings-bench ; for title of lands or goods in the proper courts of the kings-bench , or common-pleas . this declared in the instructions for ireland , in the latter end of king iames his time , and by the proclamation in his majesties time ; my lord took notice of them called the commissioners , narrow-hearted commissioners . the law said , he should not thus proceed in the subversion of it , he saith he will , and will enforce obedience by the army , this is as much , in respect of the end , as to endeavour the overthrow of the statutes of labourers , of victuals , or of merton for inclosures ; here is a warrant against the king , in respect of the end . . in respect of the actions , whether there be either a levying of war , or an open deed , or both . my lords , there was an army in ireland at that time , of two thousand horse and foot ; by this warrant there is a full designation of this whole army , and an assignment of it over to savill for this purpose . the warrant gives him power from time to time , to take as many soldiers , horse and foot , with an officer throughout the whole army , as himself shall please ; here is the terror and awe of the whole army to enforce obedience . my lords , if the earl had armed two thousand men horse and foot , and formed them into companies to this end , your lordships would have conceived , that this had been a war. it 's as much as in the case of sir thomas talbot , who armed them in assemblies . this is the same with a breach of trust added to it . that army which was first raised , and afterwards committed to his trust , for the defence of the people , is now destined by him to their destruction . this assignation of the army by his warrant , under his hand and seal , is an open act. my lords , here 's not only an open act done , but a levying of war , soldiers , both horse and foot , with an officer in warlike manner assessed upon the subject , which killed their cattel , consumed and wasted their goods . your lordships observe a great difference , where six men go upon a design alone , and when sent from an army of six hundred , all engaged in the same service , so many were sent as were sufficient to execute the command , if upon a poor man fewer , more upon a rich ; if the six had not been able , the whole army must make it good . the reason that the sheriff directed alone , or but with one bayliff to do execution , is , because he hath the command of the law , the kings writ , and the posse comitatus in case of resistance . here 's the warrant of a general of an army ; here 's the posse exercitus , the power of the army , under the awe of the whole army , six may force more , than sixty without it ; and although never above six in one place , yet in several parts of the kingdom at the same time , might be above sixty ; for sessing of soldiers was frequent , it was the ordinary course for execution of his orders . the lord-lieutenant of a county in england , hath a design to alter the laws and government ; nay , admit the design goes not so high , he only declares thus much , he will order the freeholders and estates of the inhabitants of the county , at his own will and pleasure , and doth accordingly proceed upon paper-petitions , foreseeing there will be disobedience , he grants out warrants under his hand and seal , to the deputy-lieutenants and captains of the trained-bands , that upon refusal , they will take such number of the trained-bands through the county , with officers , as they shall think good , and lay them upon the lands and houses of the refusers , soldiers in a warlike manner are frequently sessed upon them accordingly ; your lordships do conceive , that this is a levying of war within the statute . the case in question goes further in these two respects . that it is more against the declared law in ireland , not only against the common-law , but likewise against the statute of hen. th . against the acts of the commissioners ; against proclamations in persuance of the law ; against that himself took notice of narrow-hearted commissioners . in this , that here was an army , the soldiers by profession , acts of hostility from them of greater terror , than from freeholders of the same county . my lords , i have now done with the first of levying of war. the second is the machination , the advising of a war. the case in this , rests upon a warrant to savile , and the advice in the article . the warrant shews a resolution of imploying the old army of ireland , to the oppression of his majesties subjects , and the laws . in the article , having told his majesty , that he was loosed and absolved from rules of government , and might doe every thing which power might admit ; he proceeded further in speech to his majesty in these words ; you have an army in ireland , you may employ to reduce this kingdom . my lords , both being put together , there 's a machination , a practice , an advice to levy war , and by force to oppress and destroy his majesties subjects . it hath been said , the statute of the edw. . is a penal law , and cannot be taken by equity and construction , there must be an actual war ; the statute makes it treason to counterfeit the kings coin , the conspiring , the raising of furnaces is no treason , unless he doth nummum percutere , actually coin. my lords , this is only said , not proved ; the law is otherwise , the th hen . fol. . there adjudged , that the conspiring and aiding to counterfeit coin was treason , and justice stamford ( fol. . & . ) is of opinion , that this , or the conspiring to counterfeit the great seal , is treason . the statute is , if any shall counterfeit the great seal , conspiring to do it by the book , is treason ; if a man take the broad seal from one patent , and put it to another , here is no counterfeiting , it 's tantamount , and therefore treason , as is adjudged in hen. . fol. . and by the opinion of stamford , if machination or plotting a war be not within that clause of the statute of levying of war , yet it is within the first , of compassing the death of the king , as that which necessarily tends to the destruction both of king and people , upon whose safety and protection he is to engage himself . that this is treason , hath been adjudged , both after the statutes of hen. . cap. . and queen mary ; so much insisted upon on the other side . in the third year of king hen. th . one balshal coming from london , found one bernard at plough , in the parish of ofley , in the county of hertford , bernard asked balshal what news ? he told him , that the news was , that king richard the second was alive in scotland ( which was false , for he was dead , ) and that by midsummer next , he would come into england ; bernard asked him , what were best to be done ? balshal answered , get men , and go to king richard. in michaelmas term , in the third year of hen. th . in the kings bench rot. . this advice of war adjudged treason . in queen mary's time , sir nicholas throckmorton conspired with sir thomas wyat , to levy war within this realm for alteration in religion , he joyned not with him in the execution . this conspiracy alone declared to be treason by all the judges ; this was after the statute of queen mary , so much insisted upon . that parliament ended in october , this opinion was delivered the easter term following , and is reported by justice dyer , fol. . it 's true , sir thomas wyat afterwards did levy war ; sir nicholas throckmorton he only conspired . this adjudged treason . one story in queen elizabeths time practised with foreigners , to levy war within this kingdom , nothing done in persuance of the practice . the intent without any adhering to enemies of the queen , or other cause , adjudged treason , and he executed thereupon . it 's true my lords , that year eliz. by act of parliament it 's made treason , to intend the levying of war ; this case was adjudged before the parliament : the case was adjudged in hillary term ; the parliament begun not till the april following . this my lords , is a case judged in point , that the practising to levy war , though nothing be done in execution of it , is treason . object . it may be objected , that in these cases , the conspiring being against the whole kingdom , included the queen , and was a compassing her destruction , as well as of the kingdoms , here the advice was to the king. answ. the answer is first , that the warrant was unknown to his majesty , that was a machination of war against the people and lawes , wherein his majesties person was engaged for protection . secondly , that the advice was to his majesty , aggravates the offence , it was an attempt which was the offence ; it was an attempt not only upon the kingdom , but upon the sacred person and his office too ; himself was hostis patriae , he would have made the father of it so to : nothing more unnatural nor more dangerous , than to offer the king poyson to drink ; telling him that it is a cordial is a passing of his death : the poyson was repelled , there was an antidote within ; the malice of the giver beyond expression . the perswading of foreigners to invade the kingdom , hold no proportion with this machination of war ; against the law or kingdom , is against the king , they cannot be severed . my lords , if no actual war within the statute , if the counselling of war , if neither of these single acts be treason within the statute , the commons , in the next place , have taken it into consideration , what the addition of his other words , counsels , and actions do operate in the case , and have conceived , that with this addition , all being put together , that he is brought within the statute of e. . the words of the statute are , if any man shall compass , or imagine the death of the king ; the words are not , if any man shall plot , or counsel the death of the king ; no , my lords , they go further than to such things as are intended immediately , directly , and determinatively against the life and person of the king , they are of a larger extent ; to compass , is to do by circuit , to consult or practice another thing directly , which being done , may necessarily produce this effect . however it be in the other treasons within this statute , yet in this , by the very words , there is room left for constructions , for necessary inferences and consequences . what hath been the judgment and practice of former times , concerning these words , of compassing the kings death , will appear to your lordships , by some cases of attainders upon these words . one owen , in k. iames his time , in the th year of his reign , at sandwich in kent , spake these words , that k. iames being excommunicated by the pope , may be killed by any man , which killing is no murther : being asked by those he spake to , how he durst maintain so bloody an assertion ? answered , that the matter was not so heinous as was supposed ; for , the king , who is the lesser , is concluded by the pope , who is the greater ; and , as a malefactor , being condemned before a temporal judge , may be delivered over to be executed ; so the king , standing convicted by the popes sentence of excommunication , may justly be slaughtered without fault ; for , the killing of the king , is the execution of the popes supreame sentence , as the other is the execution of the law. for this , judgment of high treason was given against him , and execution done . my lords , there is no clear intent appearing , that owen desired the thing should be done , onely arguments that it might be done , this is a compassing , there is a clear endeavour to corrupt the judgment , to take off the bonds of conscience , the greatest security of the kings life , god forbid , saith one of better judgement then he , that i should stretch out my hand against the lords annointed : no , saith he , the lord doth not forbid it , you may , for these reasons , lawfully kill the king. he that denies the title to the crown , and plots the means of setting it upon anothers head , may do this without any direct , or immediate desiring the death of him that wears it ; yet this is treason , as was adjudged in the th of hen. . in these of burton , and in the duke of norfolkes case , eliz. this is a compassing of his death ; for there can no more be two kings in one kingdom , then two suns in the firmament : he that conceives a title , counts it worth venturing for , though it cost him his life : he that is in possession thinks it as well worth the keeping . iohn sparhauk in king henry the fourth's time , meeting too men upon the way , amongst other talk , said , that the king was not rightful king , but the earl of march ; and that the pope would grant indulgencies to all , that could assist the earles title , and that within half a year there would be no liveries nor cognizances of the king ; that the king had not kept promise with the people , but had laid taxes upon them . in easter-terme , in the third year of henry the fourth , in the kings bench , rot. . this adjudged treason , this denying the title with motives , though not implyedly of action against it , adjudged treason ; this is a compassing the kings death . how this was a compassing of the kings death , is declared in the reasons of the judgment ; that the words were spoken with an intent , to withdraw the affections of the people from the king , and to excite them against him , that in the end they might rise up against him in mortem & destructionem of the king. my lords , in this judgment , and others , which i shall cite to your lordships , it appears , that it is a compassing the kings death by words , to endeavour to draw the peoples hearts from the king , to set discord between the king and them , whereby the people should leave the king , should rise up against him , to the death and destruction of the king. the cases that i shall cite , prove not onely that it is treason , but what is sufficient evidence to make this good . upon a commission held the th year of ed. . in kent , before the marquess of dorset , and others , an indictment was preferred against iohn awater , of high treason , in the forme before-mentioned , for words , which are entred in the indictment sub hac forma : that he had been servant to the earl of warwick ; that though he were dead , the earl of oxford was alive , and should have the government of part of that country ; that edward , whom you call king of england , was a false man , and had , by art and subtilty , slain the earl of warwick , and the duke of clare his brother , without any cause , who before had been both of them attainted of high treason . my lords , this indictment was returned into the kings bench in trinity-terme , in the eighteenth year of edward the fourth ; and , in easter-terme , the two and twentieth of edward the fourth , he was outlawed , by the stay of the outlawry , so long as it seemes the judges had well advised before , whether it were treason or not . at the same session thomas heber was indicted of treason for these words , that the last parliament was the most simple and insufficient parliament that ever had been in england ; that the king was gone to live in kent , because that for the present he had not the love of the citizens of london , nor should he have it for the future : that if the bishop of bath and wells were dead , the archbishop of canterbury being cardinal of england , would immediately lose his head . this indictment was returned into the kings bench in trinity-terme , in the th year of edward the th : afterwards there came a privy-seal to the judge to respit the proceedings , which ( as it should seem ) was to the intent the judges might advise of the case , for afterwards he is outlawed of high-treason upon this indictment . these words are thought sufficient evidence , to prove these several indictments , that they were spoken to withdraw the peoples affections from the king , to excite them against him , to cause risings against him by the people , in mortem & destructionem of the king. your lordships are pleased to consider , that in all these cases , the treason was for words onely , words by private persons , and in a more private manner , but once spoken , and no more , onely amongst the people , to excite them against the king. my lords , here are words , counsels , more then words and actions too , not onely to disaffect the people to the king , but the king likewise towards the people ; not once , but often ; not in private , but in places most publick ; not by a private person , but by a counsellor ofstate , a lord lieutenant , a lord-president , a lord-deputy of ireland . . to his majesty , that the parliament had denyed to supply him : a slander upon all the commons of england , in their affections to the king and kingdom , in refusing to yield timely supply for the necessities of the king and kingdom . . from thence , that the king was loose , and absolved from rules of government , and was to do every thing , that power would admit . my lords , more cannot be said , they cannot be aggravated ; whatever i should say would be in diminution . . thence you have an army in ireland , you may employ to reduce this kingdom . to counsel a king , not to love his people , is very unnatural , it goes higher to hate them , to malice them in his heart , the highest expressions of malice , to destroy them by war. these coales they were cast upon his majesty , they were blown , they could not kindle in that breast . thence , my lords , having done the utmost to the king , he goes to the people . at york , the country being met together for justice , at the open assises upon the bench , he tells them , speaking of the justices of the peace , that they were all for law , nothing but law , but they should find , that the kings little finger , should be heavier then the loynes of the law , as they shall find . my lords , who speaks this to the people , a privy-counsellor ? this must be either to traduce his majesty to the people , as spoken from him , or from himself , who was lord-lieutenant of the county , and president , intrusted with the forces and justice of those parts , that he would employ both this way . add , my lords , to his words there , the exercising of an arbitrary and vast jurisdiction , before he had so much as instructions , or colour of warrant . thence we carry him into ireland ; there he represented , by his place , the sacred person of his majesty . first . there at dublin , the principal city of that kingdom , whither the subjects of that country came for justice in an assembly of peers , and others of greatest rank , upon occasion of a speech of the recorder of that city , touching their franchises and regal rights ; he tells them , that ireland was a conquered nation , and that the king might do with them what he pleased . secondly , not long after , in the parliament car. in the chair of state , in full parliament again , that they were a conquer'd nation ; and that they were to expect laws as from a conqueror , before the king might do with them what he would , now they were to expect it that he would put this power of a conqueror in execution : — the circumstances are very considerable ; in full parliament ; from himself in cathedra , to the representative body of the whole kingdom . the occasion adds much , when they desir'd the benefit of the laws , and that their causes and suites might be determined according to law , and not by himself , at his will and pleasure , upon paper petitions . thirdly , upon like occasion , of pressing the laws and statutes , that he would make an act of council-board in that kingdom , as binding as an act of parliament . fourthly , he made his words good by his actions , assumed and exercised a boundless and lawless jurisdiction , over the lives , persons and estates of his majesties subjects , procured judgment of death against a peer of that realm ; commanded another to be hanged , this was accordingly executed , both in times of high peace , without any process or colour of law. fifthly , by force , of a long time , he seized the yarn and flax of the subjects , to the starving and undoing of many thousands ; besides the tobacco business , and many monopolies and unlawful taxes ; forced a new oath , not to dispute his majesties royal commands ; determined mens estates at his own will and pleasure , upon paper-petitions to himself ; forced obedience to these , not only by fines and imprisonment , but likewise by the army ; sessed soldiers upon the refusers in an hostile manner . sixthly , was an incendiary of the war between the two kingdomes of england and scotland . my lords , we shall leave it to your lordships judgments , whether these words , counsels , and actions , would not have been a sufficient evidence , to have proved an indictment drawn up against him , as those before mentioned , and many others are ? that they were spoken and done to the intent , to draw the kings heart from the people , and the affections of the people from the king ; that they might leave the king , and afterwards rise up against him , to the destruction of the king ; if so , here is a compassing of the kings death , within the words of the statute of th year of edward the third , and that warranted by many former judgments . my lords , i have now done with the three treasons within the statute of the twenty fifth of edw. d. i proceed unto the fourth , upon the statute of the eighteenth year of henry the sixth , chapter the third , in ireland , and i shall make bold to read the words to your lordships . that no lord , nor any other , of what condition soever he be , shall bring , or lead hoblers , kernes , or hooded men , nor any other people , nor ho rses , to lie on horseback , or on foot , upon the kings subjects , without their good wills and consent , but upon their own costs , and without hurt doing to the commons ; and if any so do , he shall be adjudged as a traytor . . the argument that hath been made concerning the person , that it extends not to the king , and therefore not to him , weighs nothing with your lordships , rex non habet in regno parem ; from the greatness of his office , to argue himself into the same impossibility with his sacred majesty , of being incapable of high-treason , it 's an offence ; no treason ; the words in the statute , no lord , nor any other , of what condition soever he be , include every subject . in trinity terme , in the three and thirtieth year of henry the eighth , in the kings-bench , leonard lord gray , having immediately before been lord deputy of ireland , is attainted of high-treason , and judgment given against him , for letting diverse rebels out of the castle of dublin , and discharging irish hostages and pledges , that had been given for securing the peace ; for not punishing one that said , that the king was an heretique : i have read the whole record , there 's not one thing laid to his charge , but was done by him as lord lieutenant ; he had the same plea with my lord of strafford ; that these things were no adhering to the kings enemies , but were done for reasons of state , that he was not within those words of the statute of the of edw. . himself being lord lieutenant there . object . it hath been said , that the soldiers sessed upon the subjects by him , were not such persons as are intended by that statute , hoblers , kernes , and hooded men , those rascally people . answ. my lords , they were the names given to the soldiery of those times , hoblers , horsemen ; the other the foot. but the words of the statute go further , nor any other people , neither horse nor foot. his lordship sessed upon them both horse and foot. object . the statute extends onely to those , that lead or bring ; savil led them ; my lord onely gave the warrant . answ. to this i shall onely say thus , plus peccat author , quam actor , by the rule of the law agentes & consentientes pari plectuntur poena ; if consent , much more a command to do it , makes the commander a traytor ; if there be any treason within this statute , my lord of strafford is guilty . it hath been therefore said , that this statute , like goliah's sword , hath been wrapt up in a cloath , and laid behind the door , that it hath never been put in execution . my lords , if the clarke of the crown in ireland , had certified your lordships upon search of the judgments of attainders in ireland , he could not find that any man had been attainted upon this statute , your lordships had had some ground to believe it ; yet it s onely my lord of straffords affirmation ; besides , your lordships know , that an act of parliament binds until it be repealed . it hath been therefore said ; that this statute is repealed by the statute of the ed. . cap. . and of the th of hen. . cap. . because by these two statutes , the english statutes are brought into ireland . the argument ( if i mistook it not ) stood thus ; that the statute of the first of henry the th , the th chap. saith , that in no time to come , treason shall be adjudged otherwise , then it was ordained by the statute of the e. . that the reason mentioned in the eighteenth year of henry the sixth , in the irish statute , is not contained in the edw. . and therefore contrary to the statute of the hen. . it must needs be void . if this were law , then all the statutes that made any new treason after the first of henry th , were void in the very fabrick , and at the time when they were made ; hence likewise it would follow , that the parliament now , upon what occasion soever , hath no power to make any thing treason , not declared to be so in the statute edw. . this your lordships easily see , would make much for the lord of straffords advantage , but why the law should be so , your lordships have onely as yet heard an affirmation of it ; no reason . but , some touch was given , that the statute of the tenth year of henry the seventh , in words , makes all the irish statutes void , which are contrary to the english. the answer to this is a denial that there are any such words in the statute . the statute declares , that the english statutes shall be effectual , and confirmed in ireland , and that all the statutes made before time to the contrary , shall be revoked . this repeals only the irish statutes of the tenth year of henry the fourth , and the nine and twentieth year of henry the sixth , which say , that the english statutes shall not be in force in ireland , unless particularly received in parliament , it makes all the irish statutes void , which say , that the english statutes shall not be in force there . it is usual when a statute sayes , that such a thing shall be done , or not done , to add further , that all statutes to the contrary shall be void . no likelihood that this statute intended to take away any statute of treason , but when in the chapter next before this , murder there is made treason , as if done upon the kings person . that this statute of the eighteenth year of henry the sixth remains on foot , and not repealed either by the statute of the eighth year of edward the fourth , or this of the tenth year of henry the seventh , appears expresly by two several acts of parliament , made at the same parliament of the tenth year of henry the seventh . by an act of parliament of henry the sixth's time in ireland , it was made treason for any man whatsoever , to procure a privy-seal , or any other command whatsoever , for apprehending any person in ireland for treason done without that kingdom , and to put any such command in execution , divers had been attainted of treason for executing such commands : there is a treason , so made , by act of parliament , in henry the sixth's time . in the third chapter of this parliament of the tenth of henry the seventh , an act is passed for no other end , then to repeal this statute of henry the sixth of treason . if this statute of henry the sixth of treason had been formerly repealed by the statute of e. . or then by the two and twentieth chapter of this parliament of the th of henry the seventh , by bringing in the english statutes , the law-makers were much mistaken now to make a particular act of parliament to repeal it , it being likewise so unreasonable an act as it was . in the eighth chapter of this parliament of the th of henry the seventh , it is enacted , that the statutes of kilkenny , and all other statutes made in ireland ( two onely excepted , whereof this of the eighteenth of henry the sixth is none ) for the common-weal , shall be enquired of , and executed : my lord of strafford saith , that the bringing in of the english statute hath repealed this statute ; the act of parliament made the same time , saith no ; it saith , that all the irish statutes , excepting two , whereof this is none , shall still be in force . object . oh , but however it was in the h. . yet it appeares by judgment in parliament afterwards , that this statute of h. . is repealed , and that is by the parliament of the th year of queen elizabeth , the th chapter , that by this parliament it is enacted , that if any man , without licence from the lord deputy , lay any soldiers upon the kings subjects , if he be a peer of the realm , he shall forfeit one hundred pounds , if under the degree of a peer , one hundred markes . this statute , as is alleadged , declares the penalty of laying soldiers on the subjects to be onely one hundred pounds , and therefore it s not treason . answ. my lords , if the offence for which this penalty of one hundred pounds is laid upon the offenders , be for laying soldiers , or leading them to do any act offensive or invasive upon the kings people , the argument hath some force ; but that the offence is not for laying soldiers upon the true subjects , that this is not the offence intended in the statute , will appear to your lordships ex absurdo , from the words of it . the words are , that if any man shall assemble the people of the county together , to conclude of peace or war , or shall carry those people to do any acts offensive or invasive , then he shall forfeit one hundred pounds . if concluding of war , and carrying the people to acts invasive , be against the kings subjects , this is high-treason , which are the words of the statute of e. . for if any subject shall assemble the people , and conclude a war , and accordingly shall lead them to invade the subject , this is a levying of war within the words of the statute ; and then the statutes of the e. . h. . of q mary , which the earl of strafford , in his answers , desires to be tryed by , are as well repealed , in this point , as the statute of the th of henry the sixth , he might then , without fear of treason , have done what he pleased with the irish army ; for all the statutes of levying of war by this statute of eliz. were taken out of his way . in ireland a subject gathers forces , concludes a war against the kings people , actually invades them , bloodshed , burning of houses , depradations ensue ; two of those , that is , murder , and burning of houses , are treason ; and there the other felony by the construction the punishment of treason , and felony is turned onely into a fine of one hundred pounds ; from loss of life , lands , and all his goods , onely to loss of part of his goods . the third absurdity , a war is concluded , three several inrodes are made upon the subject ; in the first a hundred pounds damage ; in the second , five thousand pounds damage ; in the third , ten thousand pounds damage , is done to the subjects ; the penalty for the last inroade is no more then for the first , onely one hundred pounds . this statute , by this construction , tells any man , how to get his living without long labour . two parts of the hundred pounds is given to the king , a third part unto the informer ; here 's no damage to the subject , that is robbed and destroyed . my lords , the statute will free it self and the makers from those absurdities . the meaning of the statute is , that if any captain shall , of his own head , conclude of peace or war against the kings enemies , or rebels , or shall , upon his own head , invade them without warrant from the king ; or lord deputy of ireland , that then he shall forfeit a hundred pounds . the offence is not for laying of soldiers upon the kings people , but making war against the irish rebels without warrant ; the offence is not in the matter , but in the manner , for doing a thing lawful , but without mission . i. this will appear by the general scope of the statute , all the parts being put together . ii. by particular clauses in the statute . iii. by the condition of that kingdom , at the time of the making of that statute . for the first , the preamble recites , that in time of declination of justice , under pretext of defending the country and themselves , diverse great men arrogated to themselves regal authority , under the names of captains ; that they acquired to themselves that government , which belonged to the crown ; for preventing of this , it 's enacted , that no man dwelling within the shire grounds , shall thenceforth assume , or take to himself the authority or name of a captain , within these shire-grounds , without letters-patents from the crown , nor shall , under colour of his captainship , make any demand of the people of any exaction , nor as a captain , assemble the people of the shire-grounds ; nor as a captain shall lead those people to do any acts offensive or invasive , without warrant under the great seal of england , or of the lord deputy , upon penalty , that if he do any thing contrary to that act , that then the offender shall forfeit a hundred pounds . my lords , the rebels had been out ; the courts of justice scarce sate ; for defence of the countrey divers usurped the place of captains , concluded of war against the rebels , and invaded them without warrant : invading the rebels without authority , is a crime . this appears further by particular clauses in the statute , none shall exercise any captainship within the shire-grounds , nor assemble the men of the shire-grounds , to conclude war , or lead them to any invasion . that that had antiently been so continued to this time , that is the irish , and the english pale , they within the shire-grounds were within the english pale ; and ad fidem & legem angliae . the irish without the pale were enemies always , either in open act of hostility , or upon leagues and hostages given for securing the peace ; and therefore as here in england we had our marches upon the frontiers in scotland and wales , so were there marches between the irish and english pale , where the inhabitants held their lands by this tenure , to defend the countrey against the irish , as appears in the close roll of the tower , in the th year of edw. . membrana . on the backside , and in an irish parliament , held the year of edw. . it 's declared , that the english pale was almost destroyed by the irish enemies , and that there was no way to prevent the danger , but only , that the owners reside upon their lands for defence , and that absence should be a forfeiture . this act of parliament in a great council here was affirmed , as appears in the close roll , the year of edw. . membrana dorso . afterwards , as appears in the statute of hen. th . in ireland , this hostility continued between the english marches and the irish enemies , who by reason there was no difference between the english marches and them in their apparel , did daily ( not being known to the english ) destroy the english within the pale : therefore it is enacted , that every english-man shall have the hair of his upper lip for distinction sake . this hostility continued until the th year of henry the th , as appears by the statute of h. th . and th . so successively downwards , till the making of this very statute of eliz. as appears fully in the th chap. nay , immediately before , and at the time of the making of this statute , there was not only enmity between those of the shire-ground , that is , the english and irish pale , but open war , and acts of hostility , as appears by history of no less authority , than that statute it self ; for in the first chapter of that statute , is the attainder of shane oneale , who had made open war , was slain in open war ; it 's there declared , that he had gotten by force , all the north of ireland , for an hundred and twenty miles in length , and about a hundred in breadth ; that he had mastered divers places within the english pale ; when the flame of this war by his death , immediately before this statute was spent , yet the firebrands were not all quenched , for the rebellion continued by iohn fitz-gerard , called the white knight , and thomas gueverford , this appears by the statute of the thirteenth year of queen eliz. in ireland , but two years after this of the eleventh year of queen eliz. where they are attainted of high treason , for levying of war this eleventh year , wherein this statute was made . so that my lords , immediately before , and at the time of the making of this statute , there being war between those of the shire-grounds , mentioned in this statute , and the irish , the concluding of war , and acts offensive and invasive there mentioned , can be intended against no others , but the irish enemies . again , the words of the statute are , no captain shall assemble the people of the shire-grounds , to conclude of peace or war ; is to presume , that those of the shire-grounds will conclude of war against themselves . nor ( with the statute ) shall carry those of the shire-grounds to do any acts invasive ; by the construction which is made on the other side , they must be carried to fight against themselves . lastly , the words are , that as captain , none shall assume the name , or authority of a captain ; or as a captain shall gather the people together ; or as a captain lead them ; the offence is not in the matter , but in the manner ; if the acts offensive were against the kings good subjects , those that were under command , were punishable , as well as the commanders ; but in respect the soldiers knew the service to be good in it self , being against the enemies , and that it was not for them to dispute the authority of their commanders , the penalty of l. is laid only upon him , that as captain , shall assume this power without warrant , the people commanded , are not within this statute . my lords , the logick wherupon this argument is framed , stands thus , because the statute of the eleventh year of queen elizabeth , inflicts a penalty of l. and no more , upon any man , that as a captain without warrant , and upon his own head shall conclude of , or make war against the king's enemies : therefore the statute of the eighteenth year of henry the th is repealed , which makes it treason to lay soldiers upon , or to levy war against the kings good people . but , my lords , observation hath been made upon other words of this statute , that is , that without licence of the deputy , these things cannot be done ; this shews that the deputy , is within none of the statutes . my lords , this argument stands upon the same reason with the former , because he hath the ordering of the army of ireland , for the defence of the people , and may give warrant to the officers of the army , upon eminent occasions of invasion , to resist or prosecute the enemy , because of the danger that else might ensue forthwith , by staying for a warrant from his majesty out of england . my lords , the statute of the th year of henry the th . chap. . touched upon for this purpose , clears the business in both points ; for there is declared , that none ought to make war upon the irish rebels , and enemies , without warrant from the lieutenant , the forfeiture l. as here the statute is the same with this , and might as well have been cited , for repealing the statute of the th year of henry the th . as this of the th year of queen elizabeth . but if this had been insisted upon , it would have expounded the other two clear against him . object . my lords , it hath been further said , although the statute be in force , and there be a treason within it , yet the parliament hath no jurisdiction , the treasons are committed in ireland , therefore not triable here . answ. my lords , sir iohn parrot , his predecessor , edw. was tryed in the kings bench for treason done in ireland , when he was deputy ; and oruche in the year of queen elizabeth , adjudged here for treason done in ireland . object . but it will be said , these tryals were after the statute of the th year of henry the th . which enacts , that treasons beyond sea may be tryed in england . answ. my lords , his predecessor my lord gray was tryed , and adjudged here in the kings-bench ; that was in trinity term , in the year of henry the th . this was before the making of that statute . object . to this again will we say , that it was for treason by the laws and statutes of england ; that this is not for any thing that 's treason by the law of england , but an irish statute . so that the question is only , whether your lordships here in parliament , have cognizance of an offence , made treason by an irish statute , in the ordinary way of judicature , without bill ? for so is the present question . for the clearing of this , i shall propound two things to your lordships consideration . whether the rule for expounding the irish statute and customs , be one and the same in england as in ireland ? that being admitted , whether the parliament in england have cognizance or jurisdiction of things there done , in respect of the place , because the kings writ runs not there ? for the first , in respect of the place , the parliament here hath cognizance there . and secondly , if the rules for expounding the irish statutes and customs , be the same here as there , this exception ( as i humbly conceive ) must fall away . in england there is the common-law , the statutes , the acts of parliament , and customs peculiar to certain places , differing from the common-law ; if any question arise concerning either a custom or an act of parliament , the common-law of england , the first , the primitive and the general law , that 's the rule and expositor of them , and of their several extents ; it is so here , it is so in ireland , the common-law of england , is the common-law of ireland likewise ; the same here and there in all the parts of it . it was introduced into ireland by king iohn , and afterwards by king henry . by act of parliament held in england , as appears by the patent-rolls of the th year of king henry . the first membrana , the words are , quia pro communi utilitate terrae hiberniae & unitate terrarum regis , rex vult , & de communi concilio regis provisum est , quod omnes leges & consuetudines quae in regno angliae tenentur , in hibernia teneantur , & eadem terra eisdem legibus subjaceat , & per easdem regatur , sicut dominus iohannes rex cum ultimò esset in hibernia statuit & fieri mandavit , quia , &c. rex vult quòd omnia brevia de communi iure quae currunt in anglia , similiter currant in hibernia , sub novo sigillo regis mandatum est archiepiscopis , &c. quod pro pace & tranquilitate ejusdem terrae , per easdem leges eos regi & deduci permittant , & eas in omnibus sequantur in cujus , &c. teste rege apud woodstock , decimo nono die septembris . here is an union of both kingdoms , and that by act of parliament , and the same laws to be used here as there , in omnibus . my lords , that nothing might be left here for an exception , that is , that in treasons , felonies , and other capital offences concerning life , the irish laws are not the same as here , therefore it is enacted by a parliament held in england , in the th year of edw , . ( it is not in print neither , but in the parliament book ) that the laws concerning life and member shall be the same in ireland , as in england . and that no exception might yet remain , in a parliament held in england . the th year of edw. . , it is enacted . quod una & eadem lex fiat tam hibernicis quam anglicis . this act is enrolled in the patent rolls of the th year of edw. . parl. membr . . the irish therefore receiving their laws from hence , they send their students at law to the inns of court in england , where they receive their degree , and of them , and of the common-lawyers of this kingdom , are the judges made . the petitions have been many from ireland , to send from hence some judges , more learned in the laws , than those they had there . it hath been frequent in cases of difficulty there , to send sometimes to the parliament , sometimes to the king , by advice from the judges here , to send them resolutions of their doubts . amongst many , i 'll cite your lordships only one , because it is in a case of treason upon an irish statute , and therefore full to this point . by a statute there made the fifth year of edw. . there is a provision made for such as upon suggestions are committed to prison for treason , that the party committed , if he can procure compurgators , shall be bailed and let out of prison . two citizens of dublin , were by a grand jury presented to have committed treason , they desired benefit of this statute , that they might be let out of prison , upon tender of their compurgators : the words of the statute of the th year of edw. th . in ireland being obscure , the judges there being not satisfied what to do , sent the case over to the queen , desired the opinion of the judges here , which was done accordingly . the judges here sent over their opinion , which i have out of the book of justice anderson , one of the judges consulted withal . the judges delivered their opinion upon an irish statute , in case of treason . if it be objected , that in this case , the judges here did not judge upon the party ; their opinions were only ad informandam conscientiam , of the judges in ireland , that the judgement belonged to the judges there . my lords ( with submission ) this and the other authorities , prove , that for which they were cited , that is , that no absurdity , no failure of justice would ensue , if this great judicatory should judge of treason , so made by an irish statute . the common-law rules of judging upon an irish statute ; the pleas of the crown for things of life and death , are the same here and there , this is all that yet hath been offered . for the second point , that england hath no power of judicature , for things done in ireland . my lords , the constant practice of all ages , proves the contrary . writs of error in pleas of the crown , as well as in civil causes , have in all kings reigns been brought here , even in the inferior courts of westminster-hall upon judgment given in the courts of ireland , the practice is so frequent , and so well known , as that i shall cite none of them to your lordships , no president will , i believe , be produced to your lordships , that ever the case was remanded back again into ireland , because the question arose upon an irish statute , or custom . object . but it will be said , that writs of error , are only upon failure of justice in ireland , and that suits cannot originally be commenced here for things done in ireland , because the kings writ runs not in ireland . answ. this might be a good plea in the kings-bench , and inferior courts at westminster-hall ; the question is , whether it be so in parliament ? the kings writ runs not within the county-palatine of chester and durham , nor within the five ports ; neither did it in wales , before the union of henry the th's time , after the laws of england were brought into wales , in king edw. the . time , suits were not originally commenced at westminster-hall for things done in them ; yet this never excluded the parliament-suits ; for life , lands , and goods within these jurisdictions , are determinable in parliament , as well as in any other parts of the realm . ireland , as appears by the statute of the thirtieth year of henry . before-mentioned , is united to the crown of england . by the statute of the eight and twentieth year of hen. th . in ireland , it is declared in these words , that ireland is the proper dominion of england , and united to the crown of england , which crown of england is of it self , and by it self , wholly and entirely endowed with all power and authority sufficient to yield to the subjects of the same full and plenary remedy , in all debates and suits whatsoever . by the statute of the three and twentieth year of henry the th , the first chapter , when the kings of england first assumed the title of king of ireland , it is there enacted , that ireland still is to be held as a crown annexed and united to the crown of england . so that by the same reason , from this that the kings writs run not in ireland , it might as well be held , that the parliament cannot originally hold plea of things done within the county-palatine of chester and durham , nor within the five ports and wales ; ireland , is a part of the realm of england , as appears by those statutes , as well as any of them . this is made good by constant practice in all the parliament rolls , from the first to the last ; there are receivers , and tryers of petitions appointed for ireland ; for the irish to come so far with their petitions for justice , and the parliament not to have cognizance , when from time to time they had in the beginning of the parliament , appointed receivers and tryers of them , is a thing not to be presumed . an appeal in ireland , brought by william lord vesey , against iohn fitz-thomas , for treasonable words there spoken , before any judgment given in case there , was removed into the parliament in england , and there the defendant acquitted , as appears in the parliament pleas of the two and twentieth year of edw. . the suits for lands , offices , and goods originally begun here are many , and if question grew upon matter in fact , a jury usually ordered to try it , and the verdict returned into the parliament ; as in the case of one ballyben in the parliament of the five and thirtieth year of edward the . if a doubt arose upon a matter tryable by record , a writ went to the officers , in whose custody the record remained , to certifie the record , as was in the case of robert bagott the same parliament , of the five and thirtieth year of edward the . where the writ went to the treasurer , and barons of the exchequer . sometimes they gave judgement here in parliament , and commanded the judges there in ireland to do execution , as in the great case of partition , between the copartners of the earl marshal in the parliament of the three and thirtieth of edward the . where the writ was awarded to the treasurer of ireland . my lords , the laws of ireland were introduced by the parliament of england , as appears by three acts of the parliament before cited . it is of higher jurisdiction dare leges , then to judge by them . the parliaments of england do bind in ireland , if ireland be particularly mentioned , as is resolved in the book-case of the first year of henry the seventh . cook 's seventh report , calvin's case ; and by the judges in trinity-term , in the three and thirtieth year of queen elizabeth . the statute of the eighth year of edward the th , the first chapter in ireland recites , that it was doubted amongst the judges , whether all the english statutes , though not naming ireland , were in force there ? if named , no doubt . from king henry the . his time downwards , to the eighth year of queen elizabeth ( by which statute it is made felony to carry sheep from ireland beyond seas ) in almost all these kings reigns , there be statutes made concerning ireland . the exercising of the legislative power there , over their lives and estates , is higher than of the judicial in question : until the th year of edward the . erroneous judgements given in ireland , were determinable no where but in england ; no , not in the parliament of ireland , as it appears in the close rolls in the tower , in the th year of edw. the . memb. . power to examine and reverse erroneous judgments in the parliaments of ireland is granted ; from hence , writs of error lye in the parliament here upon erroneous judgements , after that time given in the parliaments of ireland , as appears in the parliament rolls , of the eighth year of henry the th . no. . in the case of the prior of lenthan . it is true , the case is not determined there , for it 's the last thing that came into the parliament , and could not be determined for want of time , but no exception at all is taken to the jurisdiction . the acts of parliament made in ireland , have been confirmed in the parliaments of england , as appears by the close rolls in the tower , in the two and fortieth year of edw. the . memb. . dorso : where the parliament in ireland , for the preservation of the countrey from irish , who had almost destroyed it , made an act , that all the land-owners , that were english , should reside upon their lands , or else they were to be forfeited , this was here confirmed . in the parliament of the fourth year of henry the th . chap. . acts of parliament in ireland are confirmed , and some priviledges of the peers in the parliaments there are regulated . power to repeal irish statutes , power to confirm them , cannot be by the parliament here , if it hath not cognizance of their parliaments ; unless it be said , that the parliament may do , it knows not what . garnsey and iersey are under the kings subjection , but are not parcels of the crown of england , but of the duchy of normandy , they are not governed by the laws of england , as ireland is , and yet parliaments in england have usually held plea of , and determined all causes concerning lands or goods . in the parliament , in the edw. . there be placita de insula iersey . and so in the parliament , edw. . and so for normandy and gascoigne , and always as long as any part of france was in subjection to the crown of england , there were at the beginning of the parliaments , receivers and tryers of petitions , for those parts appointed . i believe your lordships will have no case shewed of any plea , to the jurisdiction of the parliaments of england , in any things done in any parts wheresoever in subjection to the crown of england . the last thing i shall offer to your lordships is , the case of eliz. in my lord dyer , . and judge crompton's book , of the jurisdiction of courts fol. . the opinion of both these books is , that an irish peer is not tryable here , it 's true , a scotch or french nobleman is tryable here , as a common person ; the law takes no notice of their nobility , because those countreys are not governed by the laws of england ; but ireland being governed by the same laws , the peers there are tryable according to the law of england only , per pares . by the same reason , the earl of strafford , not being a peer of ireland , is not tryable by the peers of ireland ; so that if he be not tryable here , he is tryable no where . my lords , in case there be a treason and a traitor within the statute , and that he be not tryable here for it , in the ordinary way of judicature , if that jurisdiction fail , this by way of bill doth not ; attainders of treason in parliament , are as legal , as usual by act of parliament , as by judgement . i have now done with the statutes edw. . and hen. . my lord of strafford hath offended against both the kingdoms , and is guilty of high treason by the laws of both . my lords , in the fifth place , i am come to the treasons at the common-law , the endeavouring to subvert the fundamental laws and government of the kingdom , and to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannical government . in this i shall not at all labour to prove , that the endeavouring by words , counsels and actions , to subvert the laws , is treason at the common-law , if there be any common-law treasons at all left ; nothing is treason , if this be not , to make a kingdom no kingdom ; take the polity and government away , englands but a piece of earth , wherein so many men have their commorancy and abode , without ranks or distinction of men , without property in any thing further than possession ; no law to punish the murthering , or robbing one another . that of hen. . of introducing the imperial law , sticks not with your lordships ; it was in case of an appeal to rome ; these appeals in cases of marriages , and other causes counted ecclesiastical , had been frequent , had in most kings reigns been tolerated ; some in times of popery put a conscience upon them ; the statutes had limited the penalty to a praemunire only , neither was that a total subversion , only an appeal from the ecclesiastical court here in a single cause , to the court of rome ; and if treason or not , that case proves not a treason may be punished as a felony ; a felony as a trespass , if his majesty so please ; the greater includes the less in the case of praemunire ; in the irish reports , that which is there declared to be treason , was proceeded upon only as a praemunire . the things most considerable in this is , whether the treasons at common-law , are taken away by the statute of edw. . which is to speak against both the direct words and scope of that statute . in it there 's this clause , that because many other like cases of treason might fall out , which are not there declared ; therefore it is enacted , that if any such case come before the iudges , they shall not proceed to iudgment , till the case be declared in parliament , whether it ought to be adjudged treason or not . these words , and the whole scope of that statute shews , that it was not the meaning to take away any treasons that were so before , but only to regulate the jurisdiction and manner of tryal . those that were single and certain acts , as conspiring the kings death , levying war , counterfeiting the money , or great seal , killing a judge ; these are left to the ordinary courts of justice : the others not depending upon single acts , but upon constructions and necessary inferences , they thought it not fit to give the inferior courts so great a latitude here , as too dangerous to the subject , those they restrained to the parliament . this statute was the great security of the subjects , made with such wisdom , as all the succeeding ages have approved it ; it hath often passed through the furnace , but like gold , hath left little or nothing . the statute of the first h. . cap. . is in these words , whereas in the parliament held the year of richard the . divers pains of treason were ordained , insomuch that no man did know how to behave himself , to do , say , or speak : it is accorded that in no time to come , any treason be adjudged otherwise , than it was ordained by the statute of th of edw. . it hath been said , to what end is this statute made , if it takes not away the common-law treasons remaining after the statute of the th of edw. ? therebe two main things which this statute doth ; first , it takes away for the future all the treasons , made by any statute since edw. . to the h. . even to that time ; for in respect , that by another act in that parliament , the statute of rich. . was repealed , it will not be denyed , but that this statute repeals more treasons than these of the r. . it repeals all statute-treasons but those in edw. . secondly , it not only takes away the statute-treasons , but likewise the declared treasons in parliament , after the th of edw. . as to the future , after declaration in parliament , the inferior courts might judge these treasons ; for the declaration of a treason in parliament after it was made , was sent to the inferior courts , that toties quotîes the like case fell out , they might proceed therein , the subject for the future , was secured against these ; so that this statute was of great use . but by the very words of it , i shall refer all treasons to the provision of edw. . it leaves that entire , and upon the old bottom . the statute of queen m. cap. . saith , that no offences made treason by any act of parliament , shall thenceforth be taken or adjudged to be treason , but only such as be declared and expressed to be treason by the statute of edw. . concerning treason , or the declaration of treason , and no others : and further provides , that no pains of death , penalties , or forfeiture in any wise shall ensue , for committing any treason , other than such as be in the statute of edw. . ordained and provided , any act of parliament , or any declaration , or matter to the contrary , in any wise notwithstanding . by the first of this statute , only offences made treason by act of parliament , are taken away , the common-law-treasons are no ways touched , the words [ and no others ] refer still to offences made treason by act of parliament ; they restrain not to the treasons only , particularly mentioned in the statute in the th edw. . but leave that statute entire to the common-law-treason , as appears by the words immediately foregoing . by the second part , for the peins and forfeitures of treasons , if it intend only the punishment of treason , or if it intend both treason and punishment , yet all is referred to the provision and ordinance of edw. . any act of parliament , or other declaration , or thing notwithstanding . it saith not , other then such penalties or treasons , as are expressed and declared in the statute of edw. . that might perhaps have restrained it to those that are particularly mentioned , no , it refers all treasons to the general ordination and provision of that statute , wherein the common law treasons are expresly kept on foot . if it be asked , what good this statute doth , if it take not away the common law treasons ? . it takes away all the treasons made by act of parliament , not only since the first of hen. . which were many , but all before hen. . even until the e. . by express words . . by express words , it takes away all declared treasons , if any such had been in parliament ; those for the future are likewise taken away ; so that whereas it might have been doubted , whether the statute of the h. . took away any treasons , but those of the d and d years of r. . this clears it , both for treasons made by parliament , or declared in parliament , even to the time of making the statute . this is of great use , of great security to the subject ; so that , as to what shall be treason , and what not , the statute of e. . remains entire , and so by consequence the treasons at the common law. only , my lords , it may be doubted , whether the manner of the parliamentary proceedings ; be not altered by the statute of h. . chap. . and more fully in the parliament roll , number , that is , whether since that statute the parliamentary power of declaration of treasons , whereby the inferiour courts receive jurisdiction , be not taken away and restrained only to bill , that so it might operate no further , then to that particular contained in the bill , that so the parliamentary declarations for after-times , should be kept within the parliament it self , and be extended no further : since h. . we have not found any such declarations made , but all attainders of treason have been by bill ? if this be so , yet the common-law treasons still remaining , there is one and the same ground of reason and equity since the h. . for passing a bill of treason , as was before , for declaring of it without bill . herein the legislative power is not used against my lord of strafford in the bill , it s only the jurisdiction of the parliament . but , my lords , because that either through my mistaking of the true grounds and reasons of the commons , or my not pressing them with apt agreements , and presidents of former times , or that perchance your lordships , from some other reasons and authorities , more swaying with your lorpships judgments , then these from them , may possibly be of a contrary or dubious opinion , concerning these treasons , either upon the statutes of e. . & h. . or at the common-law . my lords , if all these five should faile , they have therefore given me further in command , to declare to your lordships some of their reasons , why they conceive that in this case , the meer legislative power may be exercised . their reasons are taken from these three grounds ; . from the nature and quality of the offence . . from the frame and constitution of the parliament , wherein this law is made . . from practices and usages of former times . the horridness of the offence , in endeavouring the overthrowing the lawes and present government , hath been fully opened to your lordships heretofore . the parliament is the representation of the whole kingdom ; wherein the king as head , your lordships as the most noble , and the commons the other members , are knit together into one body politick ; this dissolves the arteries and ligaments that hold the body together , the lawes ; he that takes away the lawes , takes not away the allegiance of one subject alone , but of the whole kingdom . it was made treason by the statute of . eliz. for her time , to affirm , that the lawes of the realm do not bind the descent of the crown ; no law , no descent at all . no lawes , no peerage ; no rankes or degrees of men ; the same condition to all . it 's treason to kill a judge upon the bench ; this kills not iudicem , sed iudicium ; he that borrowed apelles , and gave bond to return again apelles the painter , sent him home , after he had cut off his right hand ; his bond was broken ; apelles was sent , but not the painter . there are twelve men , but no law ; there 's never a judge amongst them . it 's felony to imbezle any one of the judicial records of the kingdom ; this at once sweeps them all away , and from all . it 's treason to counterfeit a twenty shillings piece ; here 's a counterfeiting of the law ; we can call neither the counterfeit , nor true coyn , our own . it 's treason to counterfeit the great-seal for an acre of land ; no property hereby is left to any land at all ; nothing treason now , either against king or kingdom ; no law to punish it . my lords , if the question were asked at westminster-hall , whether this were a crime punishable in star-chamber , or in the kings-bench , by fine , or imprisonment ? they would say it went higher : if whether felony ? they would say , that 's for an offence only against the life , or goods of some one or few persons ; it would , i believe , be answered by the judges , as it was by the chief justice thurning in r. . that though he could not judge the case treason there before him , yet if he were a peer in parliament he would so adjudge it . my lords , if it be too big for those courts , we hope it 's in the right way here . . the second consideration is from the frame and constitution of the parliament ; the parliament is the great body politick , it comprehends all , from the king to the beggar ; if so , my lords , as the natural , so this body , it hath power over it self , and every one of the members , for the preservation of the whole ; it 's both the physitian and the patient ; if the body be distempered , it hath power to open a vein , to let out the corrupt blood for curing it self ; if one member be poysoned or gangred , it hath power to cut it off for the preservation of the rest . but , my lords , it hath often been inculcated , that law-makers should imitate the supreme law-giver , who commonly warnes before he strikes . the law was promulged before the judgment of death for gathering the sticks . no law , no transgression . my lords , to this rule of law is frustra legis auxilium invocat , qui in legem committit , from the lex talionis ; he that would not have had others to have a law , why should he have any himself ? why should not that be done to him , that himself would have done to others ? it 's true , we give law to hares and deers , because they be beasts of chase ; it was never accounted either cruelty or foul play , to knock foxes and wolves on the head , as they can be found , because these be beasts of prey . the warrener sets traps for polcats and other vermine , for preservation of the warren . further , my lords , most dangerous diseases , if not taken in time , they kill ; errors , in great things , as war and marriage , they allow no time for repentance ; it would have been too late to make a law , when there had been no law. my lords , for further answer to this objection , he hath offended against a law , a law within the endeavouring to subvert the lawes , and polity of the state wherein he lived , which had so long , and with such faithfulness protected his ancestry , himself , and his whole family : it was not malum quia prohibitum , it was malum in se , against the dictates of the dullest conscience , against the light of nature , they not having a law , were a law to themselves . besides this , he knew a law without , that the parliament , in cases of this nature , had potestatem vitae & necis . nay , he well knew , that he offended the promulged and ordinary rules of law. crimes against law have been proved , have been confessed , so that the question is not de culpa , sed de poena , what degree of punishment those faults deserve ? we must differ from him in opinion , that twenty felonies cannot make a treason , if it be meant of equallity in the use of the legislative power ; for he that deserves death for one of these felonies alone , deserves a death more painful , and more ignominious for all together . every felony is punished with loss of life , lands and goods ; a felony may be aggravated with those circumstances , as that the parliament with good reason may add to the circumstances of punishment , as was done in the case of iohn hall , in the parliament of the h. . who , for a barbarous murder , committed upon the duke of glocester , stifling him between two feather-beds at calice , was adjudged to be hanged , drawn and quartered . batteries by law are only punishable by fine , and single damages to the party wounded . in the parliament held in h. . cap. . one savage committed a battery upon one chedder , servant to sir iohn brooke , a knight of the parliament for somersetshire . it 's there enacted , that he shall pay double damages , and stand convicted , if he render not himself by such a time . the manner of proceedings quickned , and the penalty doubled ; the circumstances were considered , it concerned the common-wealth , it was a battery with breach of priviledge of parliament . this made a perpetual act : no warning to the first offender : and in the kings bench , as appears by the book-case of h. . the first leaf , double damages were recovered . my lords , in this of the bill , the offence is high and general , against the king and the common-wealth , against all , and the best of all . if every felony be loss of life , lands and goods ; what is misuser of the legislative power , by addition of ignominy , in the death and disposal of the lands to the crown , the publick patrimony of the kingdom ? but it was hoped , that your lordships had no more skill in the art of killing men , then your worthy ancestors . my lords , this appeal from your selves to your ancestors we do admit of , although we do not admit of that from your lordships to the peers of ireland . he hath appealed to them ; your lordships will be pleased to hear , what judgment they have already given in the case , that is , the several attainders of treason in parliament ; after the statute of e. . for treasons not mentioned , nor within that statute , and those upon the first offenders without warning given . by the statute of e. . it 's treason to levy war against the king ; gomines and weston afterwards in parliament , in the r. . n. , , adjudged traytors for surrendring two several castles in france , only out of fear , without any compliance with the enemy ; this not within the statute of th e. . my lords , in the d of rich. d. iohn imperiall that came into england upon letters of safe conduct , as an agent for the state of genoa , sitting in the evening before his door , in breadstreet ( as the words of the records are ) paulo ante ignitegium ; iohn kirkby , and another citizen coming that way , casually kirkby troad upon his toe , it being twilight , this grew to a quarrel , and the ambassador was slain ; kirkby was indicted of high-treason , the indictment finds all this , and that it was only done se defendendo , and without malice . the judges , it being out of the statute e. . could not proceed ; the parliament declared it treason , and judgment afterwards of high-treason : there 's nothing can bring this within the statute of e. . but it concerns the honor of the nation , that the publick faith should be strictly kept : it might endanger the traffique of the kingdom ; they made not a law first , they made the first man an example ; this is in the parliament-roll r. . number . and hillary terme , r. . rot. . in the kings-bench , where judgment is given against him . in r. . tresilian , and some others , attainted of treason for delivering opinions in the subversion of the law , and some others for plotting the like . my lords , the case hath upon another occasion been opened to your lordships ; only this is observable , that in the parliament of the first year of henry the third , where all treasons are again reduced to the statute of e. . these attainders were by a particular act confirmed and made good , that the memory thereof might be transmitted to succeeding ages , they stand good unto this day ; the offences there as here , were the endeavouring the subversion of the laws . my lords , after the h. . sir iohn mortimer being committed to the tower , upon suspition of treason , brake prison , and made his escape ; this no way within any statute , or any former judgment at common-law for this , that is , for breaking the prison only , and no other cause ; in the parliament held the second year of henry the sixth , he was attainted of high-treason by bill . my lords , poysoning is only murder , yet one richard cooke having put poyson into a pot of pottage in the kitchin of the bishop of rochester , whereof two persons dyed , he 's attainted of treason , and it was enacted , that he should be boyled to death by the statute of h. . c. . by the statute of the h. . elizabeth barton the holy maid of kent , for pretending revelations from god , that god was highly displeased with the king , for being divorced from the lady katherine , and that in case he persisted in the separation , and should marry another , that he would not continue king not above one moneth after , because this tended to the depriving of the lawful succession to the crown , she is attainted of treason . my lords , all these attainders , for ought i know , are in force at this day . the statutes of the first year of henry the th . and the first of queen mary , although they were willing to make the statute of e. . the rule to the inferiour courts , yet they left the attainders in parliament , precedent to themselves , untoucht , wherein the legislative power had been exercised . there 's nothing in them whence it can be gathered , but that they intended to leave it as free for the future . my lords , in all these attainders , there were crimes and offences against the law ; they thought it not unjust ( circumstances considered ) to heighten and add to the degrees of punishment , and that upon the first offender . my lords , we receive , as just , the other lawes and statutes made by these our ancestors , they are the rules we go by in other cases , why should we differ from them in this alone ? these , my lords , are in part those things , which have satisfied the commons in passing the bill , it is now left to the judgment and justice of your lordships . upon the close of mr. st. iohns speech the house adjourned , nor was there one word spoken but by master st. iohns , onely the lord lieutenant used the last part of his rhetorick , and by a dumb eloquence , manibus ad sydera tensis , often holding up his hands towards heaven , all along mr. st. iohns speech , made his replies with a deep silence . upon fryday , april the th , he petitioned the lords to be heard again , alleadging , that his lawyers had not fully spoken at their last meeting , but this was denyed him , because the house of commons were to have the last speech , nor were they content to speak again . the following speech of mr. glyns , is , by a mistake misplaced , for it ought to be next to my lords summary of the evidence . mr. glyn's reply to the earl of strafford's defence . my lord of strafford having concluded the recapitulation of his evidence ; mr. glyn applyed himself to their lordships in manner following . may it please your lordships , my lord of strafford ( as your lordships have observed , ) hath spent a great deal of time in his evidence , and in his course of answering , hath inverted the order of the articles ; he hath spent some time likewise in defending the articles not objected against him , wherein he hath made a good answer , if in any : we shall presume to withdraw a while , and rest upon your lordships patience ; and i doubt not but to represent my lord of strafford as cunning in his answer , as he is subtil in his practice . the committee withdrawing for about the space of half an hour , and then returning to the bar , mr. glyn proceeded as followeth . my lords , your lordships have observed how the earl of strafford hath been accused by the commons of england of high treason , for a purpose and design to subvert the fundamental laws of both the kingdoms , of england and ireland , and to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannical government : the commons have exhibited articles in maintenance of that charge : my lord of strafford hath thereunto answered in writing . the commons have proceeded to make good their charge by proof , and thereunto my lord of strafford hath made his defence ; and this day my lord of strafford hath taken upon him to recollect his evidence , and make his observation upon it , the most he could to his advantage . my lords , we that are intrusted for the house of commons , stand here to recollect the evidence on our part , and to apply it to the general charge , and how far it conduces thereunto . my lord of strafford in recollecting the evidence of his defence , as i did mention before , hath ( under favour ) exprest very much subtilty , and that in divers particulars , which i shall represent to your lordships . my lords , before i enter upon the recollection of the proofs produced on the behalf of the commons , i shall make some observations , and give some answer to that recollection of his ; though very disorderly to the method i propounded to my self . and first , in general , it will appear to your lordships , ( looking upon your notes , and observing his recollection ) that he hath used the repetition of evidence on both sides , in such manner as you know who useth scripture ; that is , to cite as much as makes for his purpose , and leave out the rest . and likewise , that in repetition of the evidence , he hath mis-recited plainly , very much of the proofs on both sides , and likewise hath pretended some proofs to be for his defence , which indeed were not : and he hath taken this farther advantage ; when it makes for his defence , he hath disjoynted the proofs and testimonies , and severed them asunder , that it might appear to your lordships , like rain falling in drops , which considered in distinct drops , bring no horror , or seeming inconvenience with them ; but when they are gathered together into an entire body , they make an inundation , and cover the face of the earth . he would not have your lordships look on those testimonies together , but distinctly and asunder , which being put together , look horrid , as will appear to your lordships , when you duly consider of them . these be the general observations , which in my answer i doubt not but to make good : but before i shall enter into observations of what he hath spoken , i shall answer in general to some things which he hath in general alledged . in the first place , he hath made a flourish this day , and several other days in the way of his defence , that if he could have had longer time , he could have made things appear clearer , and have produced more proofs . give me leave to inform your lordships , that he is no way streightned of time , for he hath been charged above three months since : he knew what was laid to his charge , and therefore his pretence of want of time , and of his disabilities to make better proofs , are but flourishes . and it appears plainly , whatsoever he hath had occasion to make use of , even the least paper , though he fetched it from ireland , there is not one wanting ; he hath copies of papers from the council-table , from the parliament of ireland , and all that may any way tend to his justification , and yet he stands upon that flourish , that if he had had time , he could have made it more clear . my lords , he hath mentioned often this day , and oftner the days before , that many of the articles laid to his charge , are proved but by one witness ; and thereupon he takes the advantage of the statute of e. . that sayes , a man ought not to be condemned for high treason , without two witnesses . my lords , this is a fallacy known to his own breast , i doubt not , and not taught him by any of his counsel , or others learned . the treason laid to his charge , is , the subverting of the laws ; the evidence is , the article proved : and though some one article appears to be proved but by one , yet put the evidence together , you shall never find it to be within the words or meaning of the statute ; for the charge is proved by a hundred witnesses : and because one part of the evidence is proved only by one witness , since , when you put them together , you will find a hundred witnesses , it is not within the words , nor meaning of the statute , neither will his counsel direct him to say so , i am confident . my lords , another observation i shall be bold to make , is , that he was pleased to cast an aspersion ( as we must apprehend ) upon them that are trusted by the house of commons this day , that we that stand here , alledged and affirmed things to be proved , that are not proved . he might have pleased to have spared that language ; we stand here to justify our selves , that we do not use to express any language , but what our hearts and consciences tell us is true ; and howsoever he is pleased to cast it upon us , i am confident i shall invert it upon himself , and make it appear , that he hath been this day guilty in the highest degree , of what he most unjustly layeth to our charge . and now my lords , to enter upon the particulars he hath been pleased to make it his general theme to day ( though he hath not spoke much to day but what he hath spoken formerly ) that these particulars considered by themselves make not a treason , and therefore put together , he wonders how they should make a treason : several misdemeanors can never make a murther , and several murthers can never make a treason ; and he wonders it should be otherwise in this case . my lords , he did instance it ( if my memory fails not ) in a case of felony ; that if a bloudy knife should be produced in the hand of the party suspected to have slain the man , if the party had been there seen before the death , it were a strange evidence ; but there must be death in the case , the fact must be committed , else there can be no murther : but he himself might answer himself , for there is a great difference ; there cannot be murther but there must be death , but he knows very well there may be treason and yet no death ; it is too late to forbear questioning treason for killing the king , till the king be killed : god forbid we should stay in that case , for the very intention is the treason , and it is the intention of the death of the law that is in question , and it had been too late to call him to question , to answer with his life , for the death of the law , if the law had been killed , for there had been no law then ; and how should the law then have adjudged it treason , when the same were subverted and destroyed ? and therefore he is much mistaken . the greatest traitor , in the memory of any that sits here to hear me this day , had a better , a fairer excuse in thisparticular , than my lord of strafford , and that is guido faux ; for he might have objected , that the taking of the cellar , the laying of the powder under the parliament-house , the kindling of the match , , and putting it near , are not so much as a misdemeanor , if you look no further ; for it was no offence in him to lay barrels under the parliament-house , and to kindle the match , and to lay it near ; but collect all together , that it was eâ intentione , to blow up the king and the state , there is the treason : but god be blessed it was not effected ; so that the rule is the same . nay , my lord of strafford hath not so much to say , when he is charged with a purpose and intention to subvert the law ; for to that purpose gave he traiterous counsels , and executed actions , thereby discovering his intentions to destroy the kingdom , and to destroy the kings claim by law , and discent . it is true , they were not put in execution , but they declared his intentions ; therefore this gives an answer to his first flourish , which is not so great an argument as the greatest traytor might use for himself , and yet it proved treason in him . my lords , he hath been plased to divide his treasons into two parts , and his division i allow of ; that is , treason by statute-law , as he terms it , though it be treason by the common-law ; and constructive treason : and upon that method he hath recited the evidence produced on either part ; give me leave to follow and trace him a little , and afterwards to discharge my own duty in taking my own course , and representing the evidence as it appears , truly ; and i will avoid ( as much as i can ) to fall into my lord of straffords error , in mis-reciting a particle ; if i do , it shall be against my will. he begins with the fifteenth article , and pretends that that is not proved : the ground and foundation of that article , was a warrant issued out by himself to a sergeant at arms , one savill , which gave directions and power to that sergeant , to lay soldiers on any person that should contemn the process of the council-board in ireland ; that was the effect : now ( says he ) this warrant is not produced , and adds , that the iudges will tell your lordships , that if a man be charged with anything under hand and seal , the deed must be produced and proved , or else no credit is to be given to it . truly , my lords , it is true , if it had been a bond , or a deed , where those that seal it , use to call their neighbors to testify , and be witnesses to it , perhaps it might be a colourable answer , that because we do not produce the deed , and prove it by witnesses , you can therefore give no credit to it : but my lords , in case of authority to commit high treason , i suppose my lord of strafford , nor any other , did call witnesses to prove the signing , sealing , and delivering of the warrant for execution of high treason ; and therefore it is a new way and invention found out by his lordship , for ought i see , to commit high treason , and to give authority for it ; and it is but taking away the original warrant , and he shall never be touched for any treason . but i beseech your lordships patience , till i come to open that article , and your lordships will find the warrant , ( though it be not produced , ) proved by three or four witnesses , and his hand and seal proved too . and whereas he pretends the sergeant at arms is no competent witness , because he excuses himself ; my lord mistakes himself , for i take it to be no excuse , to prove a warrant from any person whatsoever , if it be to commit high treason : and therefore savil's testimony is the more strong , being so far from excusing , that he doth accuse himself : and though he is charged with laying of soldiers upon the kings people , contrary to an express act of parliament made in h. . yet my lord is pleased ( i know not how to term it , whether it be merrily or otherwise ) to use his retorick , here is a great levying of war , when there is not above four musquetiers , or six at most , laid upon any one man. my lords , it is a plain levying of war , and without all question , and in all sense , it is as much mischievous to me to be surprized by four or six musquetiers , to enforce me to any thing they would have , as if there were an army of forty thousand brought upon me ; for if that strength will but over-master me , it is all one to me , whether i be mastered by four , or by four thousand . and therefore let not this be a rule , that to send four , or six , or ten musquetiers up and down , is not considerable , because of the smalness of the number ( the danger is the same ; ) yet this is no levying of war , because they goe not in troops of greater number , as it pleases my lord of strafford to affirm my lords , your lordships remember what the effect of the warrant is sworn to be , that howsoever the sergeant at arms , and his ministers that executed it , brought but four , or six , or ten , yet the sergeant might have brought all the army of ireland , for there was authority so to do . and admitting the matter of fact proved , he mentions an act of parliament made eliz. whereby a penalty is laid upon men that shall lay soldiers on the kings subjects , and yet ( as my lord observes ) it must now be treason in the deputy . my lords , the very casting of an eye upon that act , shews it to be as vainly objected , as if he had said nothing ; for in truth it is no other , than as if he should say , the king hath given me the command of an army in ireland , and therefore i may turn them upon the bowels of the kings subjects : it is no more in effect . your lordships heard him the other day mentioning two acts of repeal , and i expected he would have insisted upon them ; but it seems he hath been better advised , and thinks them not worthy repetition , nor indeed are they . and if the matter of fact be proved upon the fifteenth article , i am confident he will find the statute of h. . to be of ful force . my lords , i am very sorry to hear , that when levying of war upon the kings subjects is in agitation , and he charged with high treason , he should make mention of the yorkshire men , and the army now on foot , whereby he would insinuate , that if he be charged with high treason , then they must be likewise , though they lye quartered , and have meat and drink with the assent of the people ; which may breed ill blood for ought i know . from the fifteenth article he descends to the three and twentieth , and that is the article whereby he stands charged with speaking of words , and giving of counsel to his majesty , to incense him against his parliament pretending a necessity , and telling him , he is loose and absolved from all rules of government ; that he had an army in ireland , which he might make use of to reduce this kingdom . in this he is pleased to begin with the testimony of my lord ranelagh , conceiving an apprehension and fear in him , that the army should go over to england , which my lord says , is no more but his saying , and mr. treasurer vane ' s. i pray god my lord ranelagh had not much cause to fear ; but by the same rule he may lay a charge of unwarrantable fear upon all the commons ; for sure the commons of england did fear it , else they would not make an article of it : but my lord ranelagh's fear did not arise from a slight cause , and he shewed himself a good common-wealths man in expressing it , and he is to be commended for it , howsoever it be apprehended by my lord of strafford . for his observation of the single testimony of mr. treasurer vane , give me leave to take the same latitude as his lordship did ; for he shews to three or four articles what he could have proved ; as to the article concerning the army , he could have proved the design of it by sir john burlacy , and some others if they had been here . but by this rule and liberty , he hath taken to alledge what he could have shown , give me leave to tell you what we might have shown , and are ready to show : we could have made it express , and proved it by notes , taken by secretary vane , the th of may , when the words were spoken , which notes should have been proved , if we had proceeded on the three and twentieth article , to corroborate the testimony of mr. secretary vane , and that by two witnesses . we could likewise have shown how we came to the knowledge of it , it being by means unknown to mr. secretary vane , and have made him an upright counsellor and witness : but we shall prove his intentions to bring in the irish army another way , when i come to open my own course and method . my lords , he pretends these words were spoken the th of may , but when they were testified by mr. treasurer , he did not speak of the th of may , and yet now my lord remembers the day : and i wonder how he came to the knowledge of the day , unless he likewise remembred the words . but that my lord observes , is , that being spoken then , how should he perswade the king , that he had an army in ireland , when in truth he had none there ? for the army was not on foot till a month after . this my lords , is plainly answered ; and if he had thought of his own answer , he had answered himself : for he tels you , that in april before , he had taken a course for the levying of the army , he had nominated the officers , giving direction for raising it : and the day of the rendezvous of the army was appointed the th of may. and so in his own answer he makes an answer to the objection , and the objection is taken away out of his own confession . from that article he falls to the seven and twentieth article , whereby he stands charged with levying money by force upon the kings people in yorkshire : he is pleased to observe that all the proofe for the maintenance of that article , is only the levying of money by four soldiers by sergeant-major yaworth ; where he is pleased to disdain the war , because it was so weak ; yet it was too strong for them ( god help them ) that were forced upon pain of life to pay it . and whereas he pretends the warrant was not from him , i shall reserve that till i come to the article , and when i come to the proofs , i believe it will remain fixed upon him . and there he left his statute-treason , and now he falls to the second kind of treason , and that was the introductive or constructive treason : he begins with the third article , that is , concerning some words that he should be charged to have spoken in ireland ; and i shall desire that your lordships would be pleased to look upon your notes , how he answers that article ; my lords , says he , i am charged to say that ireland was a conquered nation , and that their charters were nothing worth , and bind the king no further than he pleaseth ; therefore i am a traitor because i speak the truth . there was his answer in his collection . and for their charters he sayes , he might very well say so , for he intended it no otherwise , but according to the validity of them , for they were several ways questionable , and ought not to bind unless they were good in law. but if you look upon his arguments , he hath like a cunning orator , omitted the principal part of the article ; and that is ▪ that ireland is a conquered nation , and they were to be governed as the king pleaseth , the king might do with them what he list ; this he omits , although they be proved by three witnesses , and are appliable to his intentions fully ; yet he could make use of so much as makes for him , and leaves out the rest , like your lordships know whom . then he descends to the fourth article , and this concerns some words he should speak , upon an occasion betwixt him and my lord of cork , that he should tell my lord of cork , he would have neither law nor lawyers dispute or question his orders . and upon another occasion , that he would make my lord of cork , and all ireland know , that all acts of state ( which are acts of council ) there made , or to be made , should be as binding as any act of parliament : this he said was proved but by one witness : and i extreamly marvel to hear him say so ; for the latter words we proved by four , or five , or six witnesses , that is , that he would have acts of state , as binding as acts of parliament . whereas he sayes , these are all the words produced against him in the time of seven years government there ; your lordships have heard of many words , and if we would trouble your lordships further in this kind , we could prove such words spoken , as often almost as he remained dayes in ireland , that is , for the mis-recital . the other part two witnesses proved ; but the residue , that they must expect law from the king as a conqueror , that acts of state should be equal to acts of parliament , and when an act of parliament would not pass , he would make it good by an act of state , these speeches at other times were proved by five witnesses . then he falls back to the second article , touching the words , that the kings little finger should be heavier than the loins of the law. my lords , these words were proved expresly by five witnesses , to be by him spoken ; and if he had produced five hundred that had said he did not speak them , they had not been equivalent to disprove five ; but he produces none . sir william penniman repeats other words , and inverts them , and none but he . another party , a minister , reports a report that he heard concerning these words , but my lord , he saith , the occasion of the speaking of them was not mentioned . truly perhaps it might be the forgetfulness of my lords memory , but let me put him in mind ; and your lordships remember that the occasion was exprest by one , and that is sir david fowles , that he laying a command upon sir david , to repair a bridge , and calling him to an account why it was not repaired , sir david fowles told him he could not do it by law. and therefore omitting it , my lord said to him , sir , some are all for law and lawyers , but you shall know , that the kings little finger will be heavier than the loins of the law. here is the occasion , though he would have another business , the knighting money to be the occasion . from the second he falls to the three and twentieth article , that is , concerning words , that he should counsel his majesty , that he might use his prerogative as he pleased ; but in saying there was no proof offered , he here begins to fall upon the other fallacy , that is , to pull things asunder ( whereas we produce them together ) and would make that which is a fagot , to be but a single stick ; but under favour , when i come , with your lordships patience , to open the force of the proofs , and put them together , he shall find ( contrary to his expectation ) that they are fully proved by the testimony of many witnesses , upon consideration of the precedent , concurrent , and subsequent acts and intentions of my lord of strafford . i shall not now run over my lord primates testimony , or my lord conwayes , or master treasurers , or my lord of bristols , but make use of them in their proper places , when i shall put all together , to shew his design , and to prove his speaking of the words . then he comes to the five and twentieth article , which i shall not insist on , though he pretends it not proved ; i shall refer that to my recollection , that i may not answer to his pieces , but bring all together , and then the horror of his fact shall more speciously appear . only this ( under favour ) i cannot pass over , when he comes to justify an advice and counsel of the kings being loose and absolved from all rules of government , and that he might use his prerogative as he pleases , he is pleased to mention the argument of the judges in the ship-money , and what they should deliver , he makes the warrant of his counsel . now your lordships may observe , he would justify his actions by law , in some cases , where it is to his advantage , but in other cases he must be ignorant of the law. but my lords , for him to mention any thing in the argument of the judges , concerning the ship-money , which is now cendemned , and to make that a ground of his counsel and advice to the king , and not the judgement in truth , but the argument of the counsel at bar , that therefore he is loose , and absolved from all rule of government ; for him to make the parliaments deferring to give supply , to be that necessity which was insisted upon in the counsels argument , and to be such an unavoidable necessity , as to beget an invasion upon propriety and liberty , it rests in your judgements , and the judgements of all that hear me , what argument this is , and what he declares his opinion to be this day . in the latter part let me close hands , and agree with him ; he sayes , proofs must be taken by themselves , they must not be judged by pieces , but together ; and now in good time i shall joyn with him , and shall desire the same judgement , that things may not be taken asunder , but judged together according to his own words . for the twentieth article , he is thereby charged with being an incendiary between both nations , and an occasion of drawing two armies into this kingdom , and to incense the war. my lords , i remember ( if i did not mis-conceive , and my memory misprompt me ) my lord said , he could have no occasion to incense a war , being a man of an estate , and should have no benefit by it , having sufficient to live without it : but in due time i shall make it appear , to my apprehension , and i believe to your lordships , when you have heard it , that the incensing of this war , and provoking of it , was the principal instrument of bringing to pass his design of subverting the laws , through the whole work of it . my lords , in the passage of this , he takes occasion to speak of the testimony of mr. secretary vane , who testifies , that my lord was for an offensive , and himself for a defensive war : whence my lord argues , here is no great difference , for both were for a war : but my lord , is there no difference between an offensive and defensive war , in case of subjects that live under one king ? is there no difference to bring an army to offend them , and for the king to raise a force to defend himself ? truly i think there is a great difference , and a very material one too : but your lordships see he makes no difference between them . my lords , in the four and twentieth article he mentions , that he is charged with being an occasion to break the parliament , and lays hold of that , as in the other articles , that it was not proved , but declined . my lords , when he shall hear the repetition of the evidence , though part of the article was not particularly insisted upon , yet i believe it will appear to your lordships , and the world , that he was the occasion of breaking the last parliament , and it is expresly proved by witnesses enough ; and though he says , how should any body think him an occasion of it , that did so often advise parliaments ? yet i shall shew anon , that when he did advise them , it was to compass his own design and plot , without which , his ends could not be brought to pass . he came from the four and twentieth article , to the seven and twentieth , and he answers against that article , that when armies are in the field , men cannot walk so peaceably , as an attorney with his box and papers in westminster-hall . i know not what he means ; but when two armies are in the field , they may raise war against the kings people , as well as the king for his just defence ; it is the way to make his people terrified with armies , and to avoid them as a serpent , and therefore it is a dangerous aspersion , as i conceive . with these he concluded , except some things that he took , by way of artificial insinuation , to perswade your lordships , that it was dangerous to raise a treason that had lain asleep , i know not how many hundred years , and create a treason . a strange thing indeed it is , that a man shall be charged with a treason for subverting the law ! a strange thing that one should be charged with treason for killing a justice sitting in the seat of justice , and yet it should be no treason to destroy king , and kingdom , and people , and all ; all which are destroyed , if the law be subverted . and now having touched upon what he hath spoken , with your lordships good favour , i shall crave leave to run the course i have propounded with my self : and that very briefly ; that is , upon the whole matter , to shew how far the evidence , produced on the commons part , doth prove the charge . my lords , that laid to his charge , is a design and purpose to subvert the fundamental laws of two kingdoms , and to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannical government ; not that he did effect it , but that he did intend it : for if he had done it , it had been too late to question it , he had left no rule whereby to call him to tryal ; but his intention and his endeavour are his charge . my lords , how far this is proved , if your lordships be pleased to call to mind the articles and the evidences produced on the commons part , your lordships will find , i believe , that his words , his counsels , and his actions , do sufficiently prove his endeavouring to destroy . in the first article , where my lord of strafford hath the first opportunity offered him to put this endeavour in execution ( that is the first place of eminency amongst his other places and commands , which i take it , was his being made president of the north ) he is no sooner there , but there be instructions procured to enable him to proceed in that court , almost in all causes ; for a man can scarce think of a cause , which is not comprehended within the instructions obtained after his coming thither : but i shall put your lordship in mind of two clauses of the instructions procured in the eighth year of this king , and after he was president ; that is , the clause of habeas corpus , and prohibitions ; that no man should obtain a prohibition , to stay any suit that should be commenced before him , in the council of york ; that if any man should be imprisoned by any process out of that court , he must have no habeas corpus . a prohibition is the only means to vindicate the estate of the subject , if it be questioned without authority . a habeas corpus is the only means to vindicate his liberty , if he be detained without law : but these doors must be shut against the kings subjects , that if either they be questioned , or restrained before him , there must be no relief . how far he could go further i am to seek , there being no means for the subject to relieve himself , if he be questioned for his estate without authority ; no means to redeem himself , if his person be imprisoned without law. and he had so incircled himself about , that if the judges should find the party that returns not the habeas corpus , according to law , there was a power , and a warrant , by the instructions , to the barons , to discharge the officers of that fine . and now i refer it to your lordships judgements , whether this be not to draw an arbitrary power to himself . for the execution of this power , it is true , it is proved to be before the instructions in the eighth year of the king ; but then it riseth the more in judgement against him ; for your lordships have heard how he went into a grave judges chamber , blaming him for giving way to a prohibition , granting attachments against one that moved for a prohibition ; and though this was done before the instructions were granted , yet the instructions coming at the heels of it , sheweth his disposition and resolution more clearly , for he acts it first , and then procures this colour to protect it : and though he pretends there was no proof , yet i must put your lordships in mind , that when these things were in question , concerning the apprehension of a knight , by a sergeant at arms , he kneels to his majesty , that this defect might be supplyed , and this jurisdiction maintained , else he might goe to his own cottage . and here being the just commencement of his greatness , if you look to the second , it follows , that at the publick assizes he declared , that some were all for law , but they should find the kings little finger heavier than the loins of the law. he did not say it was so , but he infused it as much as he could into the hearts of the kings people , that they should find it so ; and so he reflects upon the king , and upon his people ; the words are proved : and to speak them in such a presence , and at such a time , before the judges and countrey assembled , they were so dangerous , and so high expressions of an intention to counsel the king , or act it himself , to exercise an arbitrary government , above the weight of the law , as possibly could be exprest by words . and this is proved by five witnesses , and not disproved , nor is any colour of disproof offered , but only by sir william penniman , who says , he heard other words , but not that he heard not these words , if he doth , he must give me leave not to believe him ; for five affirmations will weigh down the proof of a thousand negatives . he stays not long in england with this power ( though while he stays , you hear how he vexes the subject ) but then he goes into ireland , and as his authority increases , so he ampliates his design ; and no sooner is he there , but the third article is laid to his charge ; that when the city and recorder of dublin , the principal city of ireland , presented the mayor , upon a solemn speech and discourse concerning the laws and liberties ( as your lordships know that is the subject matter of a speech at such presentments , as when the lord mayor of london is presented to the king ) i beseech your lordship , observe the words he then used , they were a conquered nation , and that we lay not to his charge , but they were to be governed as the king pleases , their charters were nothing worth , and bind but during the kings pleasure . i am to seek , if i were to express an arbitrary power , and tyrannical government , how to express it in finer words , and more significant terms than these , that the people shall be governed at the kings will , that their charters , the sinews and ligatures of their liberties , lands , and estates , should be nothing worth , and bind no longer than the kings pleasure , especially being spoken upon such an occasion , and the words proved by two or three witnesses of credit and quality . from thence we descend to articles , that shew the execution of his purpose . there are three things a man enjoys by the protection of the law ; that is , his life , his liberty , and his estate . and now , my lords , observe how he invades , and exercises a tyrannical jurisdiction , and arbitrary government over them all three . i shall begin with the fifth article , that is concerning my lord mountnorris and denwit . my lord mountnorris , a peer of that realm , was sentenced to death by procurement of my lord of strafford ; who , howsoeve he pretends himself not to be a judge in the cause , yet how far he was an abettor , and procurer , and countenancer , and drawer on of that sentence , your lordships very well remember ; he was sentenced to death without law , for speaking words at a private table , god knows , of no manner of consequence in the world , concerning the treading upon my lord of strafford ' s toe ; the sentence procured seven months after the words spoken , and contrary to law , and himself being put in mind of it , my lord mountnorris desiring to have the benefit of the law , and yet he refusing it . and then it was in time of peace , when all the courts of justice were open , and to sentence a man to death of that quality , my lord of strafford himself being present , an author , a drawer on of it , makes it very hainous . your lordships remember this article was fully proved , and though he pretends his authority by a letter from his majesty , i shall in due time give a full answer to that , so that it shall rise up in judgement against him , to aggravate his offence , and that in a great measure . here he exercises a power over life , his excuse was , that he procured a pardon from my lord mountnorris , but the power was exercised , and the tyranny appeared to be the more ; he would first sentence him to death , and then rejoyce in his power , that he might say , there remains no more but my command to the provost marshal to do execution . to exercise a power over his life , and to abuse him afterwards , is very high ; but no thanks to him that the sentence of death was not executed , it was the grace and goodness of his majesty , that would not suffer my lord mountnorris , a person of that eminence , to be put to death against law. but the other was hanged , and as appears , against law ; and though my lord pretends the party was burnt in the hand , yet that was not proved , nor material : and for him to do this in time of peace , when the courts of justice were open , it argues a desire in his breast , to arrogate a power above law. and in truth i may not omit some observations that my lord made this day ; he hopes his majesty would be pleased to grant him a pardon . i perceive he harboured in this thoughts , that he might hang the kings subjects when he would , and then get a pardon of course for it . the lord bless me from his jurisdiction . my lords , give me leave to goe back again , here is power over the lives and liberties of the subject ; but he exercised likewise a tyrannical power over his estate . your lordships may be pleased to remember the fourth article , where he judges my lord of cork's estate , in neither church-land , nor plantation-land , and therefore had no pretence of a jurisdiction ; for it is a lay fee divolved by act of parliament to the crown ; yet he deprives him of his possession , which he had continued for twenty nine years , upon a paper-petition , without rules of law. and whereas my lord of cork went about to redeem himself ( the law being every man's inheritance , and that which he ought to enjoy ) he tels him , he will lay him by the heels , if he withdraw not his process : and so when he hath judged him against an express act of parliament , and instructions , and bound up a great peer of the realm , he will not suffer him to redeem that wrong , without a threat of laying him by the heels , and he will not have law nor lawyers question his orders , and would have them all know , an act of state should be equal to an act of parliament : which are words of that nature , that higher cannot be spoken , to declare an intention to proceed in an arbitrary way . the next was in my lord mountnorris his case , and rolstone . and here i must touch my lord with misrepetition . rolstone preferred a petition to my lord deputy , my lord deputy himself judges his estate , and deprived him of his possession , though he cannot produce so much as one example , or precedent ( though if he had , it would not have warranted an illegal action ) but he cannot produce a precedent , that ever any deputy did determine concerning a mans private estate ; and if he hath affirmed it , he proved it not : some petitions have been preferred to him , but what they be non constat . but though never any knew the deputy alone to determine matters of land , yet he did it . to the seventh article we produce no evidence ; but my lord of strafford cannot be content with that , but he must take upon him to make defence for that which is not insisted upon as a charge ; but since he will do so , i refer it to the book in print , where he determines the inheritance of a nobleman in that kingdom , that is , my lord dillon , by a case falsly drawn , and contrary to his consent ; and though he deprives him not of his possession ; yet he causes the land to be measured out , and it is a danger that hangs over his head to this day . and had we not known that we had matter enough against my lord of strafford , this should have risen in judgement against him ; but i had not mentioned it now , if he had not mentioned it himself . the eighth article contains several charges , as that of my lord chancellor , how he imprisoned him upon a iudgement before himself and the council , how he inforced the seal from him when he had no authority ; nay , though it were excepted by his patent , that he should no way dispose of it ; but he looked not to authority , further than might make way to his will. another concerns the prime earl of that kingdom , my lord of kildare , whom he imprisoned , and kept close prisoner , contrary to the kings express command for his deliverance ; and in his answer my lord acknowledges it , but sayes , that that command was obtained from the king upon a mis-information . these things i would not have mentioned , if he had passed them over ; but since he gives them in , give me leave to mention and say , we had a ground to put them into charge , and could have proved them , if there had been need , punctually and expresly , and i believe , little to my lords advantage . but your lordships , i think , do remember my lady hibbots case , where the lady hibbots contracts with thomas hibbots for his inheritance , for l. executes the contract by a deed , and fine levied , deposits part of the money , and when a petition was exhibited to the lord deputy and council for the very estate , your lordships remember how this came in judgment before my lord deputy ; there was but a petition delivered , there was an answer made , and all the suggestions of the petition denied ; yet my lord spake to hibbots himself , that was willing to accept the money , not to decline the way that he was in by petition , five hundred pound more will do him no hurt to carry into england with him : and yet , without examination of a witness , a decree was made to deprive this lady of her estate : and the purchasing of this land by my lord of strafford , was proved by two witnesses , though not absolutely , yet by confession of sir robert meredith and others , whose names were used in trust for my lord of strafford , and that it proved according to my lord of straffords prophecy ; for the man had five hundred pounds gain above the contract with my lady hibbots . but after the lands were sold for seven thousand pounds : so that the lady hibbots offence was her making of a bargain , whereby to gain five hundred pounds ; but there was no offence in my lord , to make a bargain for three thousand pounds , and to gain four thousand pounds presently : this you see proved by hibbots the party , and by mr. hoy , the son of the lady hibbots , so that here is a determination of a cause before the council-table , touching land , which was neither plantation , nor church-land , without colour of the instructions , contrary to law , to statute , to practice ; and if this be not an exercising of an unlawful jurisdiction over the land and estates of the subject , i know not what is . in his answer to this case he did open it ( yet whether he mistook or no i know not ) that he had a letter from the king , but he produces none in evidence ; and that is another mis-recital . i am sorry he should mis-recite , and fix it upon the person of his sovereign in a case of this nature . now he falls more immediately upon the liberty of the subject , and that is by the warrant mentioned in the ninth article , to be issued to the bishop of down and conner , whereby he gives power to him and his officers , to apprehend any of the kings subjects that appeared not upon process out of his ecclesiastical courts , expresly contrary to law ; and your lordships have heard how miserably the kings subjects were used by this warrant , as hath been proved by a gentleman of quality , sir iames mountgomery : and howsoever he pretends it was called in , it was three whole years in execution , before it was called in ; and though he pretends his predecessors did ordinarily grant warrants of that nature , yet he proves no such thing . my lord primate was examined , and he says , that bishop mountgomery did tell him there was such a warrant , and one witness more speaks of one warrant , and that is all the witnesses produced , and that but to be a copy too . your lordships have heard how he exercises his jurisdiction and power over particulars , and that in a numerous manner ; now your lordships shall find it universal , and spread over the face of that kingdom that was under his jurisdiction , and that is in the tenth article , which concerns the customs : where he doth impose upon the kings subjects a rate and tax against law , and enforces them to pay it , or else punishes them for it ; which is expresly an arrogating to himself of a jurisdiction above the law. my lords , in his answer he pretends that this is rather a matter of fraud than otherwise : in truth and so it is , and that a great one too . but as it is a fraud , a dis-service , and deceit to his majesty , so it is likewise an exercise of a tyrannical jurisdiction over his subjects . that it is a fraud to his majesty , it plainly appears , for the king lost exceedingly by it ; whereas before the rent afforded the king was . l. there was improved by the new lease , that my lord of strafford took but l. and i beseech your lordships observe how much the king lost by it ; for my lord had comprehended in his new lease the impost of wine , for which the king before that time received l. a year ; and likewise the custom of london-derry , colerane , and knockfergus , for which the king had reserved l. a year , besides the moity of the seizures : so here is l. that the king lost of the old rent expresly : and if your lordships please , observe the gain and benefit my lord of strafford made by it ; in one year he and his sharers received l. and in the last year l. and that expresly proved upon two accounts : and if this be his dealing , where is his service to the king in his pretence to advance the customs ? it is true , he says , the king hath five eighth parts , but it was but within these two years , the king had it not before . and i would very gladly have heard whether the king received his part of an account of l. if he had received it , i believe we should have heard of it . my lords , there is something more ; here is a new imposition on the kings people without law , and yet i will do my lord of strafford no injury : but i tell you how the proof stands ; it was a book of rates framed before he came to the farm , for the book of rates was in march , and the date of his assignment was in april following ; and therefore my lord saith , it could not be for his benefit . but , my lords , all this while my lord of strafford was in england , and in agitation for the procuring of it , and they come one upon the heels of another , and i beseech you observe cui bono ; the book of rates was procured within a month of the patent , but god knows whether it were not within the compass of his intentions to take the patent ; and therefore whether he were not the instrument of raising rates , it rests in your lordships judgement , and all that hear me ; i am sure the benefit redounded to himself : and so here is an arbitrary government in imposing and forcing to pay , for that i desire your lordships to take with you ; and he might as well have raised nineteen shillings on a pound , as nine pence or three pence , by the same rule of law. the next article in number was the eleventh , and i would be glad my lord had not mentioned it ; it concerns the pipe-staves , wherein he pretends he did the king great service , and that , he sayes , was the reason of our passing over it : but that was not the reason ; it had been a foul business if we had opened it ; but having enough besides , we made not use of it : for the substance of the proofs by multiplicity of witnesses had been , that the parties themselves that bought the pipe-staves for four pound odd money , were fain to sell them to his instruments for six pounds , and after to buy them again for ten pounds , else there must be no licence to export them : but that i would not have mentioned , if he had let it slip over . i come to the twelfth article , and that is concerning the tobacco , wherein he pretends the kings service , and if my memory fail me not , the desire of the parliament , that he should take this into his hands for the king. my lords , therein , under his favour , he hath mis-recited the evidence , and spoken that he cannot justify ; for he can shew no such desire of the parliament . it is true , there was a desire of the parliament , that the king would be pleased to take his customs into his hands , for the advancement of his revenue , that it might go to maintain himself , and he might not be abused , and others live by it ; but to take the tobacco into his hands , he never did , nor can produce a witness to prove such their desire ; and therefore , under favour , he fixes a wrong upon the parliament , and injures your lordships by his reciting that he neither did nor can make good ; for there was no such thing . but if you observe the course he takes , he makes proclamation to hinder the importing of tobacco into ireland ; that if it be imported , it must be sold to him at his own rate ; and by this means he first hinders the liberty of the subject from doing what the law allows him , and so takes on him an arbitrary power ; and secondly , he ingrosses this commodity to himself , deceiving his majesty , to whom he professeth so much fidelity ; for whereas there is l. rent to the king , he , by the computation of merchants , receives near l. a year : and because their computations are not always true , i do not care if i allow him l. mistaken , and then he will gain near l. so that if he intends the kings benefit , it is wonder he told not his majesty of the great profit that might thereby have risen , and let him partake of it , as in justice he should have done , according to the trust reposed in him : but you have heard of no such matter . and surely my lord of strafford would not have omitted it , if it had been for his advantage , especially in this presence , where he omits nothing to clear himself , or to insinuate with his majesty . now i come to the thirteenth article , the article concerning flax , which i know is fresh in your lordships memories , and i believe will be so in the memories of the subjects of ireland for many years , how he ingrossed it into his hands , and interrupted the trade of the poor people , whereby such miseries and calamities befell many of that nation , that as you have heard it proved , thousands dye in ditches for want of bread to put in their mouths . and whereas he pretends that this was proved but by one witness , and that man to be imprisoned , and of no credit , though he was his own instrument ; your lordships remember sir iohn clotworthy his testimony , and anothers , and his own warrant produced , and acknowledged here to justify the execution of it , and such a thing was thereby taken into his own hands , that i profess i never heard the like , that the poor people should be constrained to use their own as he pleased , and that pleasing of himself laid an impossibility on the people to execute his pleasure , which was a bondage exceeding that of the israelites under the egyptians ; for there was not laid so much upon the children of israel , but there was a possibility to perform ; they might with much labour perchance get stubble to burn their brick , but the natives here must have a charge laid upon them without possibility to perform , and the disobedience must cost them no less than the loss of their goods , which drew with it even the loss of their lives for want of bread . this was not proved by only one witness , but by many . and your lordships remember the remonstrance of that parliament of ireland , which declares it to a greater height than i have opened it . the fifteenth article , is that of levying war upon the kings subjects , expresly within the statute of edw. . and h. . your lordships have heard the warrant proved by the party himself , to whom it was directed ; whereby power was given to lay soldiers upon any party , that did not obey my lord of straffords orders at the council table , but not to circumscribe him to a certain number ; but the sergeant at arms and his ministers , might lay as many as they would . it is true , this warrant was not it self produced , but a copy was offered , which was not read ; and therefore i will not offer it to be proved , but the party that executed the warrant it self , proves it to be under the hand and seal of my lord of strafford , he proves the express authority of it , which was to the effect i opened ; three or four more , who saw and read it , proved the same : and that it was under the hand and seal of my lord of strafford , that accordingly it was executed upon divers of the king's subjects ; it was proved by three witnesses expresly in the point , how by colour of this warrant the sergeant at arms , and his officers , sent soldiers to lye in the houses and lands of the kings subjects ; how the owners were thereby forced out from their own habitation ; how their goods were wasted and devoured , their corn and victuals eaten up , and the soldiers never left them , as long as any part of their estates remained to maintain them . my lord of straffords defence is , that it hath been used before his time in ireland ; wherein he hath again mis-recited ; for he did not offer a proof , nor a particle of a proof , that ever any man did know soldiers laid upon any party , for refusing to appear to a warrant , or for other contempt at council-table , before himself did it ; but he offered to prove , that formerly soldiers were sent against rebels , and that after they were declared to be rebels , and that justly too ; and he proved an use and custom to force men to pay contribution-money , due to the king , but that was by consent of the people , who granted a contribution of l. a year , for increase of the kings revenue ; and that it might not be upon record in the exchequer , and so claimed as due in time to come , they consented , that soldiers should be laid upon them that refused it ; and the word ( consent ) is within the statute of h. . again , did he prove all manner of rents were levied by soldiers ? no such thing ; but such rents as were designed for the payment of the army : he proved by sir arthur terringham , the laying of soldiers once for the payment of a fum of money ; but sir arthur being demanded whether it were the king's rents , or comprehended within the same general rule , he could make no answer thereunto . your lordships remember , he says he did not know it , and therefore probably it was the kings rents ; and doubtless it was so . but if he had produced precedents , it could not be an authority for treason , that if people did not appear to his orders , he must levy war against the kings subjects ; and for his extenuation of the war , that the same was of no great danger , there being not above five or six soldiers laid at a time . i would to god , the people oppressed by it , had cause to undervalue it : i am sure four or six musquetiers are as strong to oppress a man , as four thousand ; so the matter of fact is strongly and expresly proved . besides , though there came not above four or five to a house , yet the authority given to the sergeant was general ; he might have brought more if he had listed : and in truth , he brought as many as the estate of the party would maintain , and as to the not producing of the warrant , i have already answered it . if it were in the case of a deed wherein men call for witnesses , it were something ; but god forbid that the treason should be gone , and the traitor not questionable , if his warrant can be once put out of the way . the next article which is laid to his charge , is , for issuing out a proclamation , and warrant of restraint , to inhibit the kings subjects to come to the fountain , their sovereign , to deliver their complaints of their wrongs and oppressions . your lordships have heard how he hath exercised his jurisdiction , and now he raises a battery to secure and make it safe . if he do wrong , perhaps the complaint may come to the gracious ears of a king , who is ready to give relief , and therefore he must stop these cries , and prevent these means , that he may go on without interruption ; and to that end he makes propositions here , that the kings subjects in ireland should not come over to make complaint against ministers of state , before an address first made to himself . it is true , he makes a fair pretence and shew for it , and had just cause of approbation , if he intended what he pretended ; but as soon as he came into ireland , what use made he of it ? he ingrosses the proceedings of almost all the courts of justice into his own hands , and so pre-possesses the king by a colourable proposition , and prevents their coming over before they had made their address to himself , and then he becomes the wrong doer , and issues proclamations for the hindring of the king's subjects to seek redress without his leave ; which is as great a proof of his design , and as great an injury to the people , governed under a gracious prince , as a heart can conceive . and what his intention was in exhibiting this proposition , it will appear in the sentence of a poor man , one david , who was censured , and most heavily fined for coming over into england to prosecute complaint against my lord of strafford . it is true , that this was not the cause expressed , but this was the truth of the matter . your lordships remember a clause in the order at council-board , whereby is set forth the cause wherefore the party is not sentenced , which i never saw in an order before , nor should now , but that my lord foresaw there was danger in it , that he might be charged in this place for the fact ; and therefore puts in negatively , why the party was not censured . clausula inconsulta inducit suspitionem . and how defends he this article ? he sayes , his predecessors issued proclamations to hinder the kings subjects from going over , lest they should joyn with o-neal , and tirconnell beyond sea , and so it might be dangerous to the state ; but because they may joyn with foreigners , shall they therefore not come to the king to make just complaint ? what this argument is , i refer to your lordships judgments . then he pretends a former precedent , affirming that the like instructions were given to my lord of faulkland ; but was there any , that none should come to their sovereign , to make their just appeal if injured ? surely there was never any such instruction before , and i hope never will be again . the next article is the nineteenth : and now when he had so plentifully exercised his tyranny over the lives , the liberty , and the estates of the king's subjects ; a man would think he could go no further : but see a tyranny exercised beyond that , and that is over the consciences of men : hitherto he dealt with the outward man , and now he offers violence to the inward man , and imposes an oath upon the kings subjects , and so exerciseth a tyranny over the consciences of men . and setting aside the matter of the oath , if he hath authority and power to impose such an oath as he shall frame , he may by the same power impose any oath to compell consciences . he pretends a warrant from his majesty to do it , but the kings ministers are to serve the king according to law ; and i dare be bold to say ( and we have good reason to thank god for it ) if any of the kings ministers tell him , that any command he gives is against law , there is no doubt but in his goodness and piety , he will withdraw his command , and not enforce execution ; and therefore if there were an error , the king is free , and the ministers to be justly charged with it . but there was no command from the king to compel and enforce them to take the oath by the power of the star-chamber , to commit them to prison , to impose heavy fines , and tyrannize over them ; all which he did in the case of steward . and now one would have thought he had acted his part , when he had acted as much as lay in his own power ; and yet he goes beyond this , he was not content to corrupt all the streams ( which was not a diverting of the course , as he spoke in his answer ; for he not only turned the course of the water , but changed the nature of it , converted it into poyson , a legal and just proceeding into a tyrannical and arbitrary government , which is not turning , but corrupting of the clear and chrystal streams to bitterness and death . ) but yet the fountain remains clear , and perhaps when his hand is taken off , you shall have the streams run as pure and uncorrupt as ever they did . this is it troubles him , remove but this obstacle , and the work is perfect ; and therefore now he will go about to corrupt the streams : if he can but infuse his poyson into the kings heart , which is the fountain , then all is done ; and now he attempts that , and approacheth the throne , endeavours to corrupt the kings goodness with wicked counsels ; but god be thanked he finds there too much piety to prevail . and therefore the next article is that , that charges him to be an incendiary to the war betwixt the two kingdoms : and now i shall be bold to unfold the mystery , and answer his objection : to what purpose should he be an incendiary ? were it not better to enjoy his estate in peace and quietness , than have it under danger of a war ? now your lordships shall have the riddle discovered . the first thing he doth after his coming into england is , to incense the king to a war , to involve two nations of one faith , and under one sovereign , to imbrue their hands in each others blood , and to draw armies into the field . that he was this incendiary , give me leave to revive your lordships memories with the proofs which will make it plain ; and first give me leave to note unto your lordships , that his majesty , with much wisdom , did in iuly . make a pacification with his subjects , and even at the very heels of this pacification , when all things were at peace , upon the tenth of september , which was the next month but one , your lordships remember the sentence of steward in the star-chamber of ireland , for not taking the oath ; your lordships may call to mind the language my lord of strafford was pleased to use to the scots : when all was in quietness , he then calls them no better than traitors or rebels , if you will believe what the witnesse testifies , whom my lord is pleased to call a schoolmaster : and truly admit he were so , because he is a schoolmaster , therefore not to be believed , is a non sequitur . and another witness , one loftus speaks to the words , though not in the same manner ; but i say , the tenth of september , when things were at peace and rest , when the king was pleased to be reconciled to them by that pacification , what boiled in his breast then , to the breaking forth of such expressions , i know not , unless it were an intention to be an incendiary . my lords , i must say and affirm , and he hath not proved it to the contrary , that all this while ( i am confident ) there was not any breach of the pacification on either side , and it lyes on his part to prove there was : but the parliament of scotland then sitting , and making preparation for their demands in pursuance of the articles of pacification , he coming over into england in september , immediately upon the pacification answers , that he found things so distracted here , that it was fit the scots should be reduced by force , if they could not be otherwise : yet no breach appears , no war was denounced , there was no intention of a war : but see what harboured in his breast all the while ? the fourth of december following , my lord traquaire made his relation to the council of the scots proceedings : and all this while there was no demands brought by the scots themselves , nor reason of their demands brought by others , though they were not prepared ; yet you have heard his advice was for an offensive war , and that the demands were a just cause of the war. and though he pretends he said no more than what the rest of the lords of the council concurred with him in , i will joyn in issue with him in that , and if some of your lordships be not satisfied , you have many noble lords among you , from whom you may be satisfied that it is not so ; i am sure he proves it not . it is true , in the proposition of the demands , some of the lords of the council did say , that these demands hypothetically , if the scots did not give satisfaction by their reasons , were a just cause of war ; but not any lord of the council was of that opinion , that the very demands , positively , without hearing of the reasons , were a just cause of war , but himself ; and i believe the noble lords of the council , their consciences can tell them , and i believe will deliver it to the rest of the peers , that i speak truth . for the offensive war , he pretends a concurrence of the rest , but it was disapproved ; many were for it upon these terms , if they did not give reasons , and shew just cause for their demands ; and many were against an offensive war upon any terms , and therefore herein he fixes that upon the lords of the council , which he cannot make good . all this while his intentions are discovered by a matter precedent , but after the breach he discovers his anger further towards the scottish nation , and makes it his design to incense the king to this war. my lords , he is not at end yet , for he confesses himself that he advised the king to call a parliament ; and now i come to his work of merit , but it was to his destruction , and serves to prove this article directly ; for to what purpose was this parliament called ? exitus acta probat ; it was no sooner set , but within three weeks a proposition is made for supply towards a war against the scots : who was the cause of calling the parliament ? himself ; and therefore who was the cause of this proposition but himself ? and so the calling of the parliament is a concurring evidence of his being an incendiary to put on the war ; and it shall appear anon absolutely , that he was the occasion of it , though he thinks there be no proof of it . did not he go over into ireland , and by his sollicitation there , subsidies were granted by the parliament , only , to maintain this war , and to shew their ingagement in it ? and who was the occasion of drawing them on , i referr to your lordships judgements , by the circumstances precedent . your lordships heard his good opinion of the scots , when he began to discourse with the citizens touching money , and their affording of the king supply , and seizing the mint , by giving them no better expositions than rebels ; for , saith he , you are more forward to help the rebels here , than to pay the king his own : i know not who he meant , but certainly the scots were in his thoughts ; so that from the beginning he incensed the war against them : first , he exclaimed against them during time of peace . he alledges in his answer , that things were found in such distraction , that it was fit the scots should be reduced by force : he gave advice precipitately without hearing the reasons , and not concurrent to the council , for an offensive war ; and putting all together , i refer it your lordships judgement who is the incendiary ; for how can it be proved more clearly , unless it should appear under his hand and seal , proved by two or three witnesses ? now , my lords , how comes this to be his design ? here the mystery comes to be unfolded . having thus incensed to the war , and ingaged the king to the uttermost , and having a parliament now dissolved without supply , he sets up an idol of his own creation , as a means to draw on his design , and that was necessity ; necessity , is it that must enforce the king : what to do ? to levy money , to use his prerogative , to raise supplies upon his subjects without their consent , against their will , necessity must be his argument , and this war must be the occasion of that necessity , and without that , he cannot suggest to the kings ear , or advise this necessity , till this be brought to pass . and now he hath brought it to pass , he began in the one and twentieth , two and twentieth , and three and twentieth article , to perswade the king , that necessity hath surprized him , by the parliaments deserting of him ; that the parliament had forsaken the king , in denying supply , and having tryed the affections of his people , he was loose , and absolved from all rules of government ; and had an army in ireland which he might employ , to reduce this kingdom . that he spake these words to the king , part is proved by two concurrent witnesses , that is , that having tryed the affections of his people , he was now loose and absolved from all rules of government ; which words are proved by two witnesses of eminent quality , that is , my lord of northumberland , and sir henry vane : and truly , howsoever my lord in his speech pretends , that the most material words are proved but by one witness ( it seeming that he held it not a material charge , that he counselled the king that he was absolved from all rules of government ) for my part , if your lordships be satisfied those words were proved , i could willingly satisfy my own conscience in it , and make no great matter to quit the rest ; for i know not how he could express it in higher terms , than that the king was absolved from all rules of government , for then he might do what he would . it is true , the latter words , touching the irish army , are expresly proved but by one witness , mr. secretary vane ; but are fortified again with such circumstances as make up more than one , yea , more than two other witnesses , if your lordships will have the patience to have it represented , as it is proved . for howsoever it be slighted by him , if your lordships will call to mind the words of sir george ratcliffe , his bosom friend ( to whom he had contributed without question , his advice in all causes ) the said sir george ratcliffe expressed it before , and told some of his friends ( supposing that he never should be called in question , and that the power of my lord of strafford had been enough to protect any thing he had done , and out of the abundance of the heart his mouth spake ) the king must now want no money ; if he did , no body would pity him , now he had his sword in his hand . sir robert king proves it so . my lord ranalagh discovered the smoak of the fire that he had just cause to suspect , and on good grounds , i am sure ; and if the commons of england had not just cause to suspect him ( as i believe he is convinced they had good cause ) what is the reason this suspition should be entertained at that time , my lord of strafford being not then questioned for it ? and yet my lord ranalagh should say , shall we turn our swords upon our own bowels ? shall we bring this army to turn the points of our blades upon that nation from whence we were all derived ? and that was before any conference with mr. secretary vane . sir william penniman himself , his own witness and friend , says , at york , before my lord of strafford was questioned , that there was a common fame of bringing the army into england , and there is something in that surely ; and after all this , to produce one witness that expresly proves the very words spoken in terminis , as they be charged , if your lordships put the whole together , see whether there be not more than one witness . and , under favour , my lord cottington , if you call to mind his testimony , i must justify , he did declare , that he heard my lord of strafford tell the king , that some reparation was to be made to the subjects property ; which must inferre , he had advised an invasion upon the property ; else by no good coherence should a reparation be made . and that he testifies this , i must affirm , and most here will affirm it ; and i think your lordships well remember it : and that is an addition to it ; for if your lordships cast your eye upon the interrogatory administred to my lord admiral , and my lord cottington , that very question is asked ; so that his own conscience told him , he had advised somthing to invade upon the people , when he advised to a restitution after things should be setled : and so i refer it to your lordships consideration , whether here be not more than one witness by far . it is true , he makes objections to lessen this testimony ; first , that this army was to be landed at ayre in scotland , and not here ; and this was declared to sir thomas lucas , mr. slingsby , sir william penniman , and others . secondly , that others that were present when the words are supposed to be spoken , did not hear any such words . for the first ; perhaps the army might be originally intended for scotland , and yet this is no contradiction , but he might intend it afterwards for england ; surely this is no logick , that because it was intended for one place , it could never be intended for another place ; so his allegation may be true , and the charge stand true likewise . beside , that it was intended originally for scotland , what proof makes he ? he told several persons of the design , but i will be tryed by himself , he told some , it was for scotland , he told others it was for england ; and why you should believe his telling on one side , more than on the other side i know not ; though he pretends a reason of his several allegations , that the world should not know his design , but if you will not believe him one way , why should he be believed the other way ? and if not the other way , why the first way ? for the second , several persons were present , when the words were spoken touching the irish army , and they were examined , and remember not the words ; but one man may hear , though twenty do not hear ; and this is no contradiction at all : for those persons whom he examined , the lord treasurer , marquis hamilton , my lord cottington did not hear the words that are proved by two witnesses , concerning the kings being loose and absolved from rules of government : and if they did not hear those words , no marvel they did not hear the other : and therefore that which he himself pretends to be a convincing testimony , is nothing at all ; so that his objections are clearly taken away , and the single testimony fortified with testimonies that make above one witness , and so the words are fully proved . but to fortify the whole , i shall handle all these articles together ; this design to subvert the law , and to exercise an arbitrary power above the law in this kingdom will ( upon the proofs putting them altogether , and not taking them in pieces as my lord of strafford hath done ) appear to have been harboured in his thoughts , and setled in his heart long before it was executed . you see what his counsels were , that the king having tryed the affections of his people , was loose and absolved from all rules of government , and might do every thing that power would admit ; and his majesty had tryed all ways , and was refused , and should be acquitted of god and man ; and had an army in ireland , wherewith if he pleased he might reduce this kingdom : so there must be a trial of his people , for supply that is denyed , which must be interpreted , a defection by refusal , and this refusal must give advantage of necessity , and this necessity must be an advantage to use his prerogative against the rule of the law , and consent of the people ; this is his advice , which shews that this very thing that happened , did harbour in his thoughts long before the breach of the parliament , and the occasion of the army . your lordships have heard it confessed by himself , that before this last advice , he had advised the calling of a parliament : to the parliament a proposition of twelve subsidies was made for supply , and ( which may be spoken with great assurance ) before they had consulted , or given any resolution to that proposition , the parliament was dissolved , upon a supposal that the supply was denied . now that this was pre-designed by my lord of strafford himself , i beseech you observe these things following , that is , the words in the two and twentieth article , that his majesty was first to try the parliament , and if that did not supply him , then he would serve the king any other way . his words are proved by mr. treasurer , that if the parliament supplyed him not , he would serve him any other way ; and this is before the parliament set : now if your lordships hear the proofs of my lord primate , ( which my lord of strafford slights taking it singly ) my lord primate before the parliament was called , when my lord of strafford was in ireland , and not yet come into this kingdom , testifies , my lords , saying , that if the parliament will not supply his majesty , the king was acquitted before god and man , if he took some other course to supply himself , though against the will of the subjects . i beseech your lordships , observe how he prophesies these things must come to pass , and advised them accordingly . my lord conway testifies , that before the parliament sate , my lord of strafford said , that if the parliament would not supply his majesty , the king was acquitted before god and man , if he took another course to supply himself , though it were against the will of the subject , and he doubts not but the parliament would give , what ? twelve subsidies : and your lordships very well remember , twelve were propounded ; but i beseech you , observe the coherence of all ; the parliament must be called , they must be tryed , if they deny there is necessity , and this necessity is a warrant for the king to proceed ; so that my lord of strafford must be judged to be either a prophet , or to have this design beforehand in his thoughts . now the parliament being broken before answer to the demand given , he vents his counsel in the three and twentieth article , and how far it is proved , your lordships have heard . now comes the bullion to be seized , the copper-money to be advised , and now comes he to tell the king , that the aldermen of london must be put to fine and ransome , and laid by the heels , and no good would be done till some of them be hanged , so you hear his advice ; i beseech your lordships observe what success this advice took ; four aldermen were instantly committed , and then the counsel of the three and twentieth article is fomented . first , he foments the war , then there is a necessity , the defection of the parliament must set the king loose from rules of government , and now see whether the occasion of the war , the calling of the parliament , the dissolving of it , be not adequate to what he propounded to himself , namely , to set up an arbitrary government . your lordships remember how fresh my lord of bristols memory is , touching my lord of straffords opinion upon the dissolution of the parliament ; how he declared unto my lord of bristol instantly within three or four days after , that the king was not to be mastered by the frowardness of his people , or rather of some particular persons ; and your lordships remember sir george wentworths words spoken the very day of dissolving the parliament ; which may be very well applyed as a concurrent proof to his intentions of bringing the army into england . he was my lords own brother , that knew much of his counsel , and his words are , that the english nation would never be well till they were conquered over again . so my lords ; put all together , if he declared his own intentions , if actions , in executing this tyrannical and arbitrary power , if counsels of as dangerous consequence , in as high a strain as can be , be not a sufficient evidence to prove an intention , and desire to subvert the law , i know not what can prove such an interpretation : and now i refer it to your lordships judgements , whether here be not a good proof of the article laid to his chage , my lords , in the seven and twentieth article , he is charged with levying of war upon the kings people , by forcing them in yorkshire to pay money ; to prove they were so forced , you have heard by two witnesses , that sergeant major yaworth , by musquetiers , four together in the town , , and one by one out of the town , did compel them to pay the fortnights contribution , else they were to serve in person : that he did this by warrant is likewise confessed by sir william pennyman : and whether this were an authority derived from , or commanded by my lord of strafford , that is the question ; and my lords , it is plainly proved , that it was commanded by my lord of strafford , for sir william pennyman himself being examined , alledged that the warrant was made in pursuance of the relation , and direction made by my lord of strafford . your lordships heard what my lord of strafford did say before-hand , as is proved by two witnesses , ( sir william ingram and mr. cholmley ) that this money should be paid , or levied on the subjects goods ; then his declaration to sir william pennyman , ( in pursuance of which he made his warrant ) that it was the assent of the lords of the great council , that this money should be levied ; and taking all together , whether it fixes it not upon him to be the author and instrument , it rests in your judgements in point of fact : and so i suppose the seven and twentieth article rests on him , and so i shall conclude the evidence produced on the behalf of the commons . and now give me leave to put your lordships in mind of some evidences offered by my lord strafford himself in his answer , and in the passages of his defence , for his clearing and justification , but tending directly to his condemnation , i will enter upon some passages he mentioned to day , and often before ; when he is charged with invading the estates of the peers of the kingdom of ireland , and determining them upon paper petitions in an arbitrary way : your lordships have heard him speak it before , and repeat it this day , that he did it out of compassion , for the more expeditious proceeding on behalfe of the poor against these mighty : but then my lords , i beseech you , compare some other part of his proceedings . your lordships remember the business of the flax , which concerns the poor wholly and universally ; and if compassion had been the rule and direction of his actions towards the poor , surely this would have been a just cause to have commiserated them in this case ; but he exercised his power over them , and over them wholly , and over them universally : and therefore it shews , it is not his compassion to the poor , nor respect to the rich , or mighty , that will any way restrain or obstruct his ways , to his own will. and thefore you may see what truth there is in his answer , by comparing one part of the charge with another , when the business of the flax brought that calamity upon the kings subjects , that thousands of them perished for lack of bread , and dyed in ditches . secondly , your lordships have often heard him use a rhetorical insinuatian , wondring that he should be charged with words , and they strained so high as to be made treason , to question his life and posterity , though the words might be spoken unadvisedly , or in discourse , or by chance : your lordships remember the fifth article , touching his proceedings against my lord mountnorris , where words were spoken in an ordinary discourse at dinner , and slight ones , god knows , of no consequence at all , such as another man would scarce have harkened after , and yet my lord extends them to the taking away of my lord mountnorris his life ; gets a sentence of death against him , and that against law , with a high hand , in such a manner , as i think your lordships have not heard the like ; and therefore i beseech you , compare one part of his answer with another , and see how ready he is to make use of any thing that may excuse himself ; and yet when he comes to act his power , you see his exercise of it . you have heard how he magnifies his zeal for advancing the kings benefit and revenue , and his care of his service , and would shelter and protect himself under it , to justify an exorbitant action : but if your lordships call to mind the business of the customs for tobacco , ( which in truth were the kings right and due , and a great profit was thereby advanced ; and he trusted to advance it . ) the king must loose of his former rents in the case of custom , and received a small rent in the case of tobacco , my lord himself in the mean time imbursing such vast sums of money : where is then the discharge of his trust ? where is his care to advance the kings rents ? to increase his revenue ? compare that part of his answer with this , and see what credit is to be given to his affirmation . my lords , throughout the passages of his discourse he insinuates , ( and never more than this day ) with the peers of the realm , magnifying them almost to idolatry ; and yet my lords , when he was in his kingdom in ireland , and had power over them , what respect shewed he then to the peers of the kingdom , when he judged some to death , trampled upon others in misery , committed them to prison , and seized on their estates ; where then was the peerage he now magnifies ? and to shew it was an insinuation for his own advantage , you may remember , when there was an unlawful act to be committed , that is , the levying of money in the north , what regard had he then to the peers of the kingdom , when he comes to justify and boulster up high treason it self , under the name and authority of the great council , where most of the peers of the realm then were ? and so by this time i know what credit your lordships give to his words spoken , when he lies under your mercy and power : but what do i speak of the peers of the kingdom , and his using of them ? my lords , he spared not his sovereign , his majesty in his whole defence ; for being charged with offences of a high nature , he justifies those offences under the pretence , and under the authority of his majesty , our gracious king and sovereign , even murther it self , in the case of denwit , and my lord mountnorris . treason it self in the fifteenth article by a command in ireland , and in the seven and twentieth , by a pretended authority from his majesty in the face of his people ; he justifies my lord mountnorris his sentence by a letter from his majesty , denwits sentence by a commission from his majesty , and he read three or four clauses to that purpose . my lords , my lord of strafford doth very well know ( and if he doth not know it , i have a witness to produce against him , which i will not examine , but refer it to his own conscience , that is , the petition of right ) that the kings servants are to serve him according to law and no otherwise : he very well knew if an unlawful act be committed , especially to a degree of treason and murder , the kings authority and warrant produced , is no justification at all . so then , my lords , to mention the kings name , to justify an unlawful act in that way , can do him no good ; and his own understanding knows , it may do the king harm , if we had not so gracious a king , that no such thing can do harm unto . but , my lords , to produce the kings warrant to justify his actions under his patent and command , what is it else , but so far as in him lies , in the face of his people , to raise a cloud , and exhale a vapour ? to interpose betwixt the king and his subjects whereby the splendor of his glory and justice cannot be discovered to his people ? my lords , what is it else , when the people make complaint against the ministers ( that should execute justice ) of their oppression and slavery , and bondage ? for the minister , when he is questioned to justify this under the kings authority , what is it , i say , but as much as in that minister lies , to fix this offence , to fasten this oppression upon the king himself , to make it to be believed , that the occasion of these their groans proceeded from his sacred majesty ? yet god be thanked the strength of that sun is powerful enough to dispel these vapours , and to disperse the cloud that he would have raised ; but in the mean time , my lord is nothing to be excused . my lords , he may pretend zeal to the kings service , and affection to his honor , but give me leave not to believe it , since , when he is questioned by all the kings people , and in the face of his people , and offences laid to his charge , which himself now confesses to be against law ; he should justify it under the kings authority ; that savours not of a good servant : i will say no more . my lords , he is charged with exercising a tyrannical power over the kings people , and in his defence your lordships have often heard ( and i may not omit it ) that he shelters himself under the protection of the kings prerogative , though he be charged with tyranny of the highest nature that may be : see then how foul and malignant an aspect this hath . my lords , what is it else , but to endeavour , as much as in him lies , to infuse into the kings heart an apprehension , that his prerogative is so bottomless a gulf , so unlimited a power , as is not to be comprehended within the rules of law , or within the bounds of government ? for else why should he mention the prerogative , when he is charged to exceed the law ? what is it else , but as far as in him lies , to make the people believe ( for i may not forget the words he hath used ) by his magnifying of the prerogative , that it hath a special stamp of divinity on it ; and that the other part of the government that god pleases to put into the kings hands , had not that stamp upon it ? as if any thing done by one , was to be justified by authority derived from heaven , but the other not . these expressions your lordships remember ; and i may not omit to put your lordships in mind of them ; and i can expound them no otherwise than , as much as in him lies , to make the subject believe and apprehend , that which is the buckler and defence of his protection , to be the two-edged sword of his destruction , according to the doctrine he preached ; and that that which is the sanctuary of their liberty , is the snare and engine of their slavery . and thus he hath cast a bone of contention , as much as in him lay , betwixt king and people , to make the subjects loath that glorious flower of his crown , by fixing a jealousie in them , that it may be a means of their bondage and slavery . but there is so much piety and goodness in the kings heart , that i hope , upon fair understanding , there will be no such occasion ; but no thanks to the party , that so much advanced the prerogative in the case and condition he stands in , to justify that which is laid to his charge of high treason . my lords , i beseech you give me leave ; there is no greater safety to kings and people , than to have the throne incircled with good counsellors ; and no greater danger to both , than to have it encompassed with wicked and dangerous ones ; and yet i beseech you call to mind , how he hath attempted to deprive the subject of all means to discover this danger , by insinuating to your lordships , what a dangerous thing it were , if counsellors should be called in question for giving of counsel : for who then ( saith he ) would be a counsellor ? where is your safeguard ? where is the kings service ? is not this , as much as in him lies , to deprive the people of the means whereby they must make themselves happy , and whereby the king must be happy , that is , by his having good counsellors about him ? and yet he infuses that venom , that the questioning of counsellors is dangerous both to king and peers , if it should be brought into example . my lords , for many years by-past , your lordships know an evil spirit hath moved amongst us , which in truth hath been made the author and ground of all our distractions , and that is necessity and danger : this was the bulwarke , and the battery that serves to defend all exorbitant actions ; the ground and foundation of that great invasion of our liberties and estates , the judgement in the ship-money , and the ground of the counsel given of late to do any thing , and to perswade the king , that he was absolved from all rules of government ; and yet your lordships have observed in the course of his defence , how often he hath raised this spirit , that god be thanked hath been laid , to the great comfort of king and kingdom , by your lordships , and all the commons in parliament . and when he stands under this question , and goes about to justify his exorbitant actions , how often hath he created this idol again ? and therefore i am afraid he discovers too much his own heart in it . my lords , i may not omit some other passages in his defence , how he hath cast scandals upon three nations in this place ; that is , in his first day of defence , when the irish remonstrance , made by all the commons of ireland , was produced by the commons of england ; he expressed in a passion , that things were carried against him by faction and correspondence , and ( if he had time he would make it appear ) with a strong conspiracy . here is a scandal cast upon the parliament of ireland , with a reflection on the commons of england ; howsoever , it is true , your lordships may remember the recantation he made that day , which i will not omit , desiring not to lay any thing to his charge but what is true ; but it is the reflection of a scandal that i cannot omit to put your lordships in mind of ; and the rather , because this remonstrance , presented from the parliament of ireland , did bear date before my lord of strafford was charged here , which is very remarkable , viz. the th of november ; and therefore , though he pretends a correspondence , certainly there could be none then , for he is not charged here till the tenth . and the same day , justifying a sentence in the castle-chamber , your lordships remember he affirmed , that unless a strict hand were kept upon the nation there , they would find it hard to prevent perjury , one of the most crying sins in ireland . now to lay an aspersion upon the subjects of ireland , being under the government of the same king with us , how fit this is to be done by a man in that condition that my lord of strafford is , i referr to your consideration . another passage i remember , whereby in his defence he fell upon that nation ; in answer of which , i may not omit to do the service i owe to the commons , for whom i am trusted , and that is , that talking of an arbitrary and tyrannical government , in reference to some orders of the commons-house in ireland , he used words to this purpose : you talk of an arbitrary government , look upon these orders , here is an arbitrary government : and yet when he produced the orders , they appeared to have so much justice and discretion in them , that he can lay nothing to the charge of them , though in a passion he is not backward to asperse them . my lords , if this lyon ( to use his own language ) now that he is chained and muzled , under the restraint and question of high treason , will here take the boldness to vent this language , and express this malignity ; how would he doe if he were unchained ? how would he devour ? how would he destroy ? &c. my lords , something concerns your lordships ; your lordships remember , that he was not backward in his own answer , to fix a charge of high treason upon the lords of the great council ; and howsoever he hath affirmed this day , i must open it again , that the charge of the seven and twentieth article he fixes in his answer , to be by consent of the lords of the great council , though he hath since recanted it ; and yet you have heard him alledge , that he will stand and fall by the truth of his answer . my lords , i am now at an end . you have my lord of strafford here questioned for high treason , for going about to subvert the fundamental laws of both kingdoms , in defence whereof , your noble ancestors spent their lives and bloods . my lords , you are the sons of those fathers , and the same blood runs in your veins , that did in theirs ; and i am confident you will not think him fit to live , that goes about to destroy that which protects your lives , and preserves your estates and liberties . my lords , you have the complaints of three kingdoms presented before you against this great person ; whereby your lordships perceive that a great storm of distemper and distraction hath been raised , that threatens the ruine and distraction of them all . the commons with much pain and diligence , and to their great expence , have discovered the ionas , that is , the occasion of this tempest . they have still , and will discharge their consciences , ( as much as in them lies ) to cast him out of the ship , and allay this tempest . they expect , and are confident your lordships will perfect the work , and that with expedition , lest with the continuance of the storm , both ship , and tackling , and mariners , both church , and common-wealth be ruined and destroyed . saturday , may . . the king came to the house of lords , and sent for the commons thither , and made this speech to both houses . i had not any intention to speak of this business , which causes me to come here to day , which is the great impeachment of the earl of strafford ; but now it comes to pass , that of necessity i must have part in that judgment : i am sure you all know that i have been present at the hearing of this great business , from the one end to the other ; that which i have to declare unto you is shortly this . that in my conscience i cannot condemn him of high treason , it is not fit for me to argue the business , i am sure you will not expect it . a positive doctrine best comes out of the mouth of a prince ; yet i must tell you three great truths , which i am sure no body can know so well as my self . . that i never had any intention of bringing over the irish army into england , nor ever was advised by any body so to do . . there never was any debate before me , neither in publique council , nor at private committee , of the disloyalty , and disaffection of my english subjects , nor ever had i any suspition of them . . i was never counsell'd by any , to alter the least of any of the laws of england , much less to alter all the laws ; nay , i must tell you this , i think no body durst be ever so impudent to move me in it , for if they had , i should have put a mark upon them , and made them such an example , that all posterity should know my intention by it ; for my intention was ever to govern according to the law , and no otherwise . i desire to be rightly understood , i told you in my conscience i cannot condemn him of high treason ; yet i cannot say i can clear him of misdemeanor : therefore i hope that you may find a way , for to satisfy justice and your own fears , and not to press upon my conscience . my lords , i hope you know what a tender thing conscience is . yet i must declare unto you , that to satisfy my people i would do great matters . but in this of conscience , no fear , no respect whatsoever , shall ever make me go against it . certainly , i have not so ill deserved of the parliament at this time , that they should press me in this tender point , and therefore i cannot expect , that you will go about it . nay , i must confess for matter of misdemeanor , i am so clear in that , that though i will not chaulk out the way , yet let me tell you , that i do think my lord of strafford , is not fit hereafter to serve me or the common-wealth in any place of trust , no not so much as to be a high-constable : therefore i leave it to you my lords , to find some such way as to bring me out of this great streight , and keep your selves and the kingdom from such inconveniences . certainly , he that thinks him guilty of high treason in his conscience , may condemn him of misdemeanor . the house of commons as soon a they returned , seemed to be much discontented with what the king had spoken , and immediately adjourned till monday following , on which day being the third of may mr. pim makes known to the house , that there are divers informations given of desperate designs , both at home and abroad , against the parliament and the peace of the nation , and that the persons engaged in it , are under an oath of secresie , that there is an endeavour to disaffect the army , not only against the proceedings of the parliament , but to bring them up against the parliament : that there is a design upon the tower , that there is an endeavour for the earl of strafford to escape ; that those combinations at home , have a correspondency with practises abroad ; and that the french are drawing down their forces in all hast to the sea-side , and that there is cause to fear their intent is upon portsmouth ; that divers persons of eminency about the king ( as by good information appears ) are deeply ingaged in the plot : that it is necessary the ports be stopt ; and that his majesty be desired to command , that no person attending upon the king , queen , or prince , do depart without leave of his majesty , with the humble advice of his parliament . the commons hereupon fell into serious debate of this matter , and the same day came to a resolution of taking a protestation , which was accordingly taken by the speaker , and about members then present , man by man. we the knights , citizens , and burgesses of the commons-house in parliament , finding to the grief of our hearts , that the designs of the priests and jesuits , and other adherents to the see of rome , have of late been more boldly and frequently put in practise than formerly , to the undermining and danger of the true reformed protestant religion , in his majesties dominions established : and finding also , that there hath been , and having just cause to suspect there still are , even during the sitting in parliament , endeavours to subvert the fundamental laws of england and ireland , and to introduce the exercise of an arbitrary and tyrannical government , by most pernicious and wicked counsels , practises , plots , and conspiracies ; and that the long intermission , and unhappier breach of parliaments , hath occasioned many illegal taxations , whereby the subjects have been prosecuted and grieved . and that divers innovations and superstitions have been brought into the church , multitudes driven out of his majesties dominions , jealousies raised , and fomented between the king and his people : a popish army levied in ireland , and two armies brought into the bowels of this kingdom , to the hazard of his majesties royal person , the consumption of the revenue of the crown , and the treasure of this realm . and lastly , finding the great causes of jealousie , that endeavours have been , and are used , to bring the english army into a misunderstanding of this parliament , thereby to encline that army by force to bring that army to pass those wicked counsels ; have therefore thought good to joyn our selves in a declaration of our united affections and resolutions , and to make this ensuing protestation . the protestation . i a. b. doe in the presence of god promise , vow , and protest , to maintain and defend , as far as lawfully i may with my life , power , and estate , the true reformed protestant religion , expressed in the doctrine of the church of england , against all popery , and popish innovation within this realm , contrary to the said doctrine , and according to the duty of my allegiance , i will maintain and defend his majesties royal person , and estate . as also the power and priviledge of parliaments , the lawful rights and liberties of the subjects ; and every person that shall make this protestation , in whatsoever he shall do , in the lawful pursuance of the same ; and to my power , as far as lawfully i may , i will oppose , and by all good ways and means endeavour , to bring to condigne punishment all such as shall by force , practise , counsels , plots , conspiracies , or otherwise do any thing to the contrary in this prsent protestation contained . and further , that i shall in all iust and honourable ways endeavours to preserve the union and peace betwixt the three kingdoms of england , scotland , and ireland , and neither for hope , fear , or any other respects , shall relinquish this promise , vow , and protestation . this protestation was read by mr. mainard . here followeth the names of the members of the house of commons , who took the same , may . . viz. will . lenthal , esq speak . edward hide . george l. digby . lord faulkland . sir iohn culpepper . iohn selden . orlando bridgeman . sir william pennyman . sir henry herbert . sir tho. fanshaw . sir william widdrington . sir fredreick cornwallis . robert holborne , esq tho. chicheley , esq sir george wentworth . william mallory , esq io. bellasis , esq sir guy palmes . edm. waller , esq sidney godolphin , esq : sir nich. slany . sir hen. slingsby . tho iermin , esq sir tho. peyton . sir philip musgrave . sir patricius curwin . sir iohn stowel . sir iohn strangwayes . sir iohn paulet . sir rich. wynn. tho. tomkins , esq arthur capel , esq iames l. compton . sir ralph hopton . geofrey palmer , esq io. vaughan , esq edw. montague , esq geo. montague , esq will. plydell , esq sir iohn paulet . charles price , esq herbert price , esq sir ralph sidenham . fitzwilliam cognisby , esq baptist noel , esq sir roger palmer . iohn coventry , esq edw. seymor , esq sir arthur ingram . sir tho. ingram . sir edw. verney . sir ralph verney . eranics newport , esq ben. weston , esq lord mansfield . sir william carnaby . sir nicholas slaning . io. craven , esq william constantine , esq sir edw. deering . sir geo. dalston . sir tho. bowyer . io. hamden , esq henry pelham , esq sir tho. widdrington . sir henry herbert . sir edw. bainton . iames cambel , esq sir tho. heale . sir henry anderson . sir harbottle grimston : sir robert pye , senior . ferd. l. fairfax . sir henry mildmay . sir william armyn . sir roger north. sir walter deaveraux . tho. hatcher , esq sir chr. yelverton . william l. russel . sir philip stapleton . sir henry cholmly . sir iohn hotham . iohn pym , esq sir ben. rudyard . herbert , esq digby , esq sir gilbert gerrard . lord ruthen . sir nevil pool . denzil hollis , esq iohn maynard , esq sir robert harly , iohn glyn , esq sir tho. barrington . william stroud , esq nathan . fines esq henry martin , esq iohn bodvil , esq sir fran. knoles . rich. shettleworth , esq iohn moor , esq sir simon d'ewes . sir iohn wray . sir chr. wray . sir martin lomly . herbert morly , esq tho. l. grey , rog. burgoine , esq sir edw. hungerford . sir iohn curson . will. perepoint , esq iohn marstal , esq hugh owen , esq norton knatchbold , esq sir ed. hales . sir ed. master — iohn cowcher , esq sir william strickland . sir edw. boys . sir tho. walsingham . sir peter wrath. tho. maleveror , esq edw. bainton , esq oliver cromwel , esq sir gilbert pickering . will. whittaker , esq mich. oldsworth , esq sir iohn harrison . sir hugh cholmley . isaack penington , esq george peard , esq sir io. howard . henry vaughan , esq ed. kirton , esq ed. bagshaw , esq sir walter smith . rich. harding , esq bulstred whitlock , esq will. price , esq henry lucas , esq gilbert willington , esq sir tho. huchinson . sir will. morly . sir henry bellingham . sir iohn frankland . sir iohn clotworthy . sir edw. munford . will. kage , esq iohn northcot , esq sir tho. middleton . sir iohn salisbury . sir ro. nappier . tho. lower , esq fran. gerrard , esq perigrin pelham , esq tho. fountain , esq hen. vernon , esq lord lisle . ed. dawx , esq ro. scowen , esq sir dudly north. lawrance whitaker , esq sir humphry tufton . henry heyman , esq tho. hiblethwait , esq arthur iones , esq will. bell , esq io. harvy , esq io. ash , esq geo. gallop , esq io. nash , esq edw. ash , esq rich. seaburn , esq cornelius holland , esq edm. dunch , esq rich. barwis , esq humph. hook. esq ro. trelawny , esq rich. weston , esq iohn goodwin , esq nath. stephen , esq io. white , esq sir ed. griffin . rich. albrough , esq dr. sam. turner . ral. snead , esq ed. patridge , esq sir peter temple . poynings moore , esq sir will. lewis . peter venebles , esq hen. killagrew , esq iohn harris , esq io. moston , esq peter leigh , esq dr. tho. eaden . will. glanvil , esq arthur goodwin , esq edw. owner , esq tho. toll , esq iohn polwhil , esq simon thelwal , esq oliv. st. iohn regis sol. sir will. allynson . io. crew . rich. catelin , esq ro. goodwy , esq io. blakeston , esq sir will. brereton . miles corbet , esq phil. smith , esq sir rich. vivion . — ravenscroft , esq sir tho. middleton . rich. kingsly , esq ralph ashton , esq will. fitzwilliams , esq henry bellasis , esq sir edw. ascue . sir edm. fowel . sir io. price rich. boyle , lord dungarven . edw. pool , esq roger hill , esq sir io. eveling . edw. prideaux , esq giles green , esq dennis bond , esq roger mathews , esq zouch pate , esq io. white , esq rich. moore , esq rich. reeves , esq tho. pewry , esq will. pewrifoy , esq will. spurs●ow , esq simon snow , esq rich. ferris , esq ed. thomas , esq serj. wild. humphrey salway , esq tho. leeds , esq will. harrison , esq gervis clifton . will. herbert , esq iohn woogan , esq henry brett , esq iohn trevanion , esq walter lloyd , esq sir rich. leigh . sir tho. ingram . sir ro. crane . iohn upton , esq iohn arundel , esq iona. rashly , esq rich. arundel , esq iohn woddon , esq iohn pearsival , esq sir will. portman . theobald gorge , esq tho. smith , esq sir martin lister . sir tho che●k . tho. hayle , esq anthony beding field , esq sir tho smith . ralph ashton , esq iohn potts , esq francis rowse , esq pierce edcomb , esq sir walter earl. sir will. masham . iohn gourdon , esq iohn role esq tho. arundel , esq ioseph iane , esq sir philip parker . arthur ains●ow , esq geo. hartnal esq edw. wingate , esq robert sicil esq sir william litton . sir iohn iennings . sir oliv luke . sir an. nichols . iohn broxam , esq iohn allured , esq geo. buller , esq iames fines , esq nich. weston , esq sir beauchamp st. iohn . sir richard ans●ow . sir io. corbet . sir alex. denton . sir io. parker . sir ro. parkhurst . sir ambrose brown. sir sam. owfield . sir rich. buller . alex. carew , esq sir nath. barnadiston . sir harvy baggott . simon norton , esq samson evers , serj. at law. philip sidney , lord lisle . iohn alford , esq sir ch. williams . rich. herbert , esq sir edw. alford . sir william plaitor . francis gamull , esq sir ioh. stepney . sir io. brook. io. fenwick , esq will. chadwell . , esq alex. lutterell , esq io. burlace , esq sir io. cook. tho. cook , esq tho. may , esq sir richard lewison . iohn griffith , esq matthew davis , esq iohn fettiplace , esq geo. loe , esq rich. edgcomb , esq sir ed. redny . sir arth. ha●welrig . sir fran. barnham . sir tho. gervis . ro. wallop , esq iames rivers , esq will. haveningham , esq will. cawly , esq iohn button , esq tho. gervis esq sir hen. worsly . hen. darly , esq valentine walton , esq sam. vassal , esq hen. campion , esq io. merrick , esq herbert price , esq tho. earle , esq will. marlet , esq will. drake , esq sir ed. littleton . sir and. ludlow . rich. harman , esq rich. shettleworth , esq sir iohn draidon . will. ellis , esq will. thomas , esq io. pine , esq will. iepson , esq iohn hotham , esq tho. hodges , esq tho. moore , esq godfrey boswell , esq antho. staply , esq io. moyle , esq will. hay , esq ferdinando stanhop , esq harbottle grimston , esq iohn craven , esq rob-crooke , esq edw. philips , esq rob. reynolds , esq sir tho. pelham . ben. valentine , esq sir tho. fanshaw . matthew cradock , esq — lloyd , esq sir will. dalson . sir tho. woodhouse , francis godolphin , esq framlingham gaudy , esq anthony irby , esq lord wenman . iohn lowry , esq sir tho. danby . iohn eveling , esq — long , esq george parry , esq will. morgan , esq walter kirk , esq sir tho. parker . — grantham , esq — tailor , esq iohn trenchard , esq rob. sutton , esq iohn whistler , esq an. hungerford , esq tho. eversfield , esq george searl , esq cha. baldwin , esq rich. whitehead , esq gerrard napier , esq hen. garton , esq mich. noble . , esq serjeant creswel . sir iohn holland . sir will. ogle . sir charles gross . sir geo. stonehouse . ro. hurst , esq will. basset , esq ralph godwin , esq ro. nichols , esq sir er. knowles . nathan . hollow , esq ambros mannaton , esq ro. walker , esq sir rich. brown. a message was immediately sent to the lords to acquaint them , that the commons had just cause and ground to suspect , that there hath been , and still is a secret practise , to discontent the army with the proceedings of the parliament , to ingage them in some design of dangerous consequence to the state , and by some mischievous ways , to prevent the happy success and conclusion of this assembly , and to desire their lordships , that a select committee might be appointed to take the examinations upon oath , concerning this desperate plot and design , in the presence of some of the commons , and to move his majesty in the name of the parliament , that upon this great and weighty occasion , no servant of his majesty , the queen , or prince , may depart the kingdom without leave of his majesty , with the advice of his parliament , until they appear and be examined . and the commons immediately agreed upon a letter to the army , and sent it away by an express , to assure them of the care the parliament took , to provide moneys for them , and did not doubt but the army will give a fair testimony of their affections to the parliament , notwithstanding the evil deportments of some persons , who have endeavoured to discontent them . at the same time the commons passed several resolves , in order to the security of the nation , viz. that strict enquiry be made what papists , priests , and iesuits , be now about the town ; that the barrels of powder going to portsmouth may be stayed . that the forces in wiltshire and hampshire be drawn towards portsmouth . and the forces in kent and sussex towards dover : and they did declare , that whosoever should give counsel or assistance , or joyn any manner of way , to bring any forreign force into the kingdom , unless it be by command from his majesty , with consent of both houses of parliament , shall be adjudged and reputed as publique enemies to the king and kingdoms . these resolves the commons made known to the lords for their concurrence , and also desired them to move his majesty for the stop of the ports ; and that the lord admiral should place such trusty commanders in the ships , for the security of the nation , as they could confide in ; in all which , the lords did most readily concur . the commons did further communicate unto the lords , the protestation which they had taken in their house , desiring the lords it might also be taken by every member of their house : it was sent to the house of lords by mr. hollis , who at the delivery thereof , did ( amongst other passages ) express himself to this effect ; my lords , the knights , citizens , and burgesses of the house of commons , having taken into their serious consideration , the present state and condition of this kingdom ; they find it surrounded with variety of pernicious , and destructive designs , practises and plots against the well being of it , nay , the very being of it , and some of those designs hatched within our own bowels , and viper-like , working our own destruction . they find jesuits and priests conspiring with ill ministers of state , to destroy our religion ; they find ill ministers conjoyned together , to subvert the laws and liberties ; they find obstructions of justice ( which is the life and blood of every state ) the parliament of late years have been like the fig-tree in the gospel , without efficacy , without fruit , commonly taken away , as elias was with a whirlwind , never coming to any maturity . the same ill councils which first raised that storm , and almost shipwrackt the common-wealth , do still continue , they blow strong like the east wind , that brought the locusts over the land ; is it not time then my lords , that we should unite and concentrate our selves , and defeat the counsels of these achitophels , which would involve us , our religion , our king , our laws , our liberties , all that can be near and dear unto an honest soul , in one universal and general desolation , to defeat i say , the counsels of such achitophels , the knights , citizens , and burgesses of the house of commons ( knowing themselves to be specially intrusted with the preservation of the whole , and in their conscience perswaded , that the dangers are so eminent , as they will admit of no delay ) have thought fit to declare their united affections , by entring into an association amongst themselves , by making a solemn protestation and vow unto their god , that they will unanimously endeavour to oppose and prevent the counsels and counsellors , which have brought upon us all these miseries and the fears of greater , to prevent the ends , and bring the authors of them to condigne punishment , and thereby discharge themselves the better before god and man. here the protestation was read unto the lords , together with the grounds and reasons which induced the house of commons to make it , which are prefixed before it , by way of preamble . the kings speech on saturday last to both houses , being publiquely known in the city , rumours were spread abroad , concerning desperate plots and designs against the parliament , which occasioned multitudes of people to resort the monday following being may . to both houses of parliament , in such a confluence as hath not been usual ; they tendred petitions to both houses , crying iustice , iustice against the earl of strafford , and when the houses arose , they departed . tuesday the th of may , the lords desired a conference with the commons , which was managed by the lord privy seal , who spake to this effect : that the occasion of the conference was so visible , that he should not need to say more of it , the multitudes without bespake the business and matter of it ; that which he had to say was by command from the king to the peers , to be communicated to both houses of parliament ; that his majesty takes notice , that the people do assemble in such unusual numbers , that the council , and peace of the kingdom may be thereby interrupted , , and therefore as a king that loveth peace , and taketh care , that all proceedings in parliament may be free and in a peaceable manner , he desires that these interruptions may be removed ; and wisheth both houses to devise a course , how the same may be done . at the same time the lord privy seal communicated to the commons , a petition , which the lords had the day before received , from the multitude of people that flock'd together in the palace-yard , which was to this effect : that whereas your petitioners did yesterday petition , for the redress of many grievances , and for the execution of justice upon the earl of strafford , and other incendiaries , and to be secured from some dangerous plots and designs on foot , to which your lordships have this day given answer , that you have the same under present consideration ; your petitioners do render humble thanks : but forasmuch as your petitioners understand , that the tower of london is presently to receive a garrison of men , not of the hamblets , ( as usually they were wont to do ) but consisting of other persons , under the command of a captain , a great confident of the earl of straffords , which doth increase their fears of the suddain destruction of king and kingdom ; wherein your lordships and posterity are deeply interessed , and this is done to make a way for the escape of the earl of strafford , the grand incendiary . they humbly pray that instant course may be taken for the discovery thereof , and that speedy execution of justice be done upon the earl of strafford . whereupon the lords sent six peers of their house to the tower , to understand what truth there was in this information , and to demand of the lieutenant who chose those men to be lodged in the tower , whether he was privy to it himself , and what order he had to receive them , and what captain was to command them ? to the two first , he said he was wholly ignorant , and for the third he said , he had his majesties command , to receive one hundred men into the tower , and captain billingsly to command them , and to receive only such men as he should bring unto him ; but now understanding their lordships order , he did promise , that no other guard should come into the tower , unless it were the hamblet-men . the lords did further declare at the conference , that they were drawing to a conclusion of the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford , but were so encompassed with multitudes of people , that their lordships might be conceived not to be free , unless they were sent home , whose flocking hither was the only hindrance to the dispatching of that bill : and therefore desired the commons to joyn with their lordships , to find out some way how this concourse about both houses might be avoided . and then they debated the protestation , and passed it , and took the same . after that the commons returned to the house , doctor burgess was desired to acquaint the multitude with the protestation , which both houses had taken , which being read by him , and also made known unto them , that the parliament desired , that they would return home to their houses , they forthwith departed . the said protestation was afterward tendred to the whole kingdom , with this intimation , that whosoever refused to take it , should be noted as disaffected to the parliament . the commons forthwith ordered the bringing in of a bill , for the continuance of this present parliament , that it might not be dissolved without the consent of both houses , which was read the first and second time , and committed . that day the earl of strafford writ this ensuing letter to his majesty . may it please your sacred majesty , it hath been my greatest grief in all these troubles , to be taken as a person which should endeavour to represent and set things amiss between your majesty and your people , and to give counsels tending to the disquiet of the three kingdoms . most true it is , ( that this mine own private condition considered ) it had been a great madness , ( since through your gracious favour i was so provided ) as not to expect in any kind to mend my fortune , or please my mind more , than by resting where your bounteous hands had placed me . nay , it is most mightily mistaken ; for unto your majesty it is well known , my poor and humble advices concluded still in this , that your majesty , and your people could never be happy , till there were a right understanding betwixt you and them ; and that no other means were left , to effect and settle this happiness , but by the counsel and assent of your parliament , or to prevent the growing evils of this state , but by intirely putting your self in this last resort , upon the loyalty and good affections of your english subjects . yet such is my misfortune , that this truth findeth little credit ; yea , the contrary seemeth generally to be believed , and my self reputed as one who endeavoured to make a separation between you and your people ; under a heavier censure than this , i am perswaded no gentleman can suffer . now i understand the minds of men are more and more incensed against me , notwithstanding your majesty hath declared , that in your princely opinion i am not guilty of treason , and that you are not satisfied in your conscience , to pass the bill . this bringeth me in a very great streight , there is before me the ruine of my children and family , hitherto untouch'd in all the branches of it , with any foul crime : here are before me the many ills , which may befall your sacred person and the whole kingdom , should your self and parliament part less satisfied one with the other , than is necessary for the preservation both of king and people : here are before me the things most valued , most feared by mortal men , life or death . to say sir , that there hath not been a strife in me , were to make me less man , than , god knoweth , my infirmities make me ; and to call a destruction upon my self and young children , ( where the intentions of my heart at least have been innocent of this great offence ) may be believed , will find no easy consent from flesh and blood. but with much sadness i am come to a resolution of that , which i take to be best becoming me , and to look upon it , as that which is most principal in it self , which doubtless is the prosperity of your sacred person , and the common wealth , things infinitely before any private mans interest . and therefore in few words , as i put my self wholly upon the honor and iustice of my peers , so clearly , as to wish your majesty might please to have spared that declaration of yours on saturday last , and intirely to have left me to their lordships ; so now to set your majesties conscience at liberty , i do most humbly beseech your majesty for prevention of evils , which may happen by your refusal to pass this bill ; and by this means to remove ( praised be god ) i cannot say this accursed ( but i confess ) this unfortunate thing , forth of the way towards that blessed agreement , which god i trust , shall ever establish between you and your subjects . sir , my consent shall more acquit you herein to god , than all the world can doe besides ; to a willing man there is no injury done , and as by gods grace i forgive all the world , with a calmness and meekness of infinite contentment to my dislodging soul : so sir , to you i can give the life of this world , with all the chearfulness imaginable , in the just acknowledgment of your exceeding favours ; and only beg , that in your goodness , you would vouchsafe to cast your gracious regard upon my poor son , and his three sisters , less or more , and no otherwise than as their ( in present ) unfortunate father , may hereafter appear more or less guilty of this death . god long preserve your majesty . tower , may . . your majesties most faithful , and humble subject , and servant , strafford . wednesday the th of may there happened to be a strange hubbub in the city , upon a false alarm , that the parliament-house was beset , and on fire , and all their lives in danger , which occasioned such running up and down in a confused manner , to come to protect them , that the like hath scarce been seen . this hubbub and alarm happened upon this occasion , sir walter earl was making a report to the house of some plot and design to blow up the house of commons ; whereupon , some members in the gallery stood up , the better to hear the report , and mr. moyle of cornwal , and mr. middleton of sussex , two persons of good bigness , weighed down a board in the gallery , which gave so great a crack , that some members thought that it was a plot indeed ; and sir iohn wray speaking out , he smelt gunpowder , hastening back out of the gallery ; some members and others in fear , running out of the house , frighted people in the lobby , who ran into the hall , crying out , the parliament house was falling , and the members were slaine , and the people running in a hurry through the hall , sir robert mansel drew his sword , bid them stand for shame ; he saw no enemy to hurt the parliament , nor heard no noise of the fall of the parliament-house ; but some of them hastened by water from westminster , and carryed the alarm into london , which occasioned so great a resort of people in multitudes to westminster , to save the parliament , and one regiment of trained-bands , commanded by colonel manwaring , upon beat of drum , were instantly armed , and marched as far as covent-garden ( beyond their liberties ) to secure the parliament , but finding the alarm false , they returned again . the same day the commons passed the bill for the continuance of the present parliament , and carried the same up to the lords . the house of commons commanded all their members to attend the house , and not to depart the town . the next day the committee appointed to joyn with the lords , for taking examinations concerning the plot , did acquaint the house , that or of the chief conspirators were fled , of which mr. henry iermin , and mr. henry piercy , members of the house , were two , and that they were gone towards portsmouth ; upon which report , present information came , that the queen was preparing to go to portsmouth , thereupon both houses had a conference , and agreed to move her majesty to stay her journey for the security of her person , her majesty not knowing what danger she might be exposed to in those parts : in the mean time , one lord and two commoners were dispatch'd to portsmouth , with private instructions , to propose certain queries to the governor there , and to take further care for the security of the place and haven of such importance , and they took an oath of secresie , as those lords and commons had done , who were appointed to examine the plot. his majesty was desired by both houses , to issue out a proclamation , for the calling in mr. peircy , and mr. iermin within a time limited , which was accordingly granted . and the lords were desired by the commons , to hasten the bill of attainder of the earl of strafford . to prevent further discontents in the army , this letter was sent by order , to sir iacob ashly , and sir iohn coniers , to be communicated to the army in the north. whereas there hath been just cause of jealousie , that there hath been some secret attempt and practises , to infuse into the army a mistake of this parliament , to some dangerous intent and purpose againk this state ; and that now the matter is grown to strong presumption upon further discoveries , and by reason that some of those which were suspected to have been active therein , are fled upon the first stirring thereof , before ever they were once named . it pleaseth this house to declare , that notwithstanding they intend to search into the bottom of this conspiracy , yet purposing to proceed , especially against the principal actors therein , this house hath resolved , whereunto the house of peers hath likewise consented , that for such of the army as the conspirators have endeavoured to work upon , if they shall testify their fidelity to the state , by a total discovery of that which they know , and can testify therein ; they shall not only be free from all punishment , but also shall be esteemed to have done that , which is for the service of the state , in the discovering so dangerous a plot , and for such of the army as are and shall be found no ways tainted with the design , or knowing any thing thereof , shall make such discovery as aforesaid , as this house shall no ways doubt of their loyalty and fidelity , so it will have a special care , not only to satisfy all such arrears , as this house hath formerly promised to discharge , but also give a fair testimony of the sence they have of their present and past wants ; and it is ordered by this house , that immediately after the receipt hereof , you should communicate this their declartion unto all the officers and members of the army , under your command . this plot consisted of three heads , the first was the design upon the tower ; the second , to engage the army ; the third , to bring in foreign forces . for the tower it appeared to be thus , captain billingsly being examined upon oath , confessed that he was acquainted with sir iohn suckling , that the said sir iohn lately offered him imployment in one of the kings ships then at portsmouth ; afterwards imployment for portugal ; that this deponent having notice to meet at the privy lodgings at whitehall , did there receive orders to get men to serve in the tower under him , and if he did fail , he should answer it with his life : and afterwards meeting with sir iohn suckling , and acquainting him therewith , he told him he would furnish him with the said number . sir will. bellfower , lieutenant of the tower being examined , said , that he had a command to receive capt. billingsly with men into the tower , who should be under his command . that the earl of strafford at that time , expostulating with him about his escape , told him he would attempt nothing in that kind without his privity , and that he should have the kings warrant for his indemnity , and that the warrant should be to command him to remove the said earl of strafford from the tower to some other castle , and he would then take his opportunity to escape ; that the lieutenant of the tower not giving any complying answer thereunto , the said earl sent again to intreat him to come to him , and would have perswaded him to let him make an escape ; saying , without your concurrence it cannot be done , and if you will consent thereunto , i will make you present payment of twenty two thousand pounds , besides , you shall have a good marriage for your son. to which the lieutenant of the tower replyed , he was so far from concurring therein , that he was not to be further moved in such a thing ; thus much the lieutenant delivered upon oath . three other witnesses were examined , who did depose , that being desirous to see the earl of strafford , they were carried to the back door of the gallery where his lodgings were , and heard the earl of strafford discourse , as he was walking with mr. slingsby ( as afterwards they understood his name to be ) about his escape , as they conceived it , for they heard him say , where is your brothers ship ? to which he answered , in such a place , and that he might be there in three hours , if the lieutenant of the tower were sure to him . and heard the earl further say , that if the king could have done any thing , his majesty would by his warrant have done it before now , and have sent for him to be removed ; but now there was nothing to be thought upon but an escape ; and also heard the said earl say , if this fort could be guarded two or three months , there would aid enough come . the plot concerning the army was thus . col. goring upon his examination in the house of commons , did confess that sir iohn suckling was the first person that ever made any overture unto him concerning the armys marching towards london ; afterwards being in the queens lodgings , he met with mr. h. p. which was about the beginning or middle of lent last , and mr. p. told him , there was a consultation of officers to be had , concerning the good of the army , and desired him to go along with him to his chamber , where the meeting was to be ; there were present at the same meeting comissary wilmott , col. ashburnham , capt. pollard , sir iohn berkly , dan. o-neal , mr. iermin and himself . that mr. p. said , there were propositions to be made , which were of great concernment , and that it was necessary there should be an oath of secresie taken , before any thing was propounded ; that the oath should be to this purpose , that we should neither directly nor indirectly discover any part of the consultation , nor ever to think our selves dissolved from that oath , by any other oath , which might be imposed upon us hereafter . which oath was read out of a paper , when it was tendred unto them , and that thereupon they were sworn by laying their hands upon the bible , that he and iermin were sworn together , for the rest had taken the oath before . then three propositions were made unto them , being the same in substance , expressed in mr. p. letter . he further said , that the whole number there met , were of opinion , that the army should not march towards london , till a declaration had been first sent up to the parliament . that he the said goring answered , it was a nice point to interpose in the proceedings of the parliament , and did propound some difficulties to allay the business , to divert comissary wilmot , and those other persons from so dangerous a business , and said , that he did think it was a design of folly to undertake it , for they must think that the scots would take the advantage upon the armys removal southwards , whose correspondency was so great with the city , and for them to begin to shew their teeth , and not be able to bite , would argue little prudence . that they should either undertake it so , as to goe thorough with it , or to let it alone ; that he did ask them , what ammunition they had to accommodate so great an army , and whether they could command the ammunition in the tower. that wilmot , pollard , and ashburnham , then made answer , they had no purpose to go to london , for to surprize the tower , was to conquer the kingdom . that this amongst other passages , was part of the discourse at the first meeting . that shortly after , there was another meeting of the same persons , and in the same place in mr. peircies chamber , where there were propositions of another nature , desperate and impious on the one hand , and foolish on the other : and that he endeavoured by argument to divert them , by propounding an impossibility to effect the same : for how could the army lodged in several quarters , unpaid , and at such a distance , march on a sudden to london , and surprize what they had in design ? that mr iermin was the person that first proposed the marching of the army towards london ; that he for his part , declared himself absolutely against it : that mr. iermin replyed to him in private ; you do not dislike the design , for you are as ready for any wild mad undertaking , as any man i know , but you dislike the temper of those persons who are ingaged in the business . he did further confess , that he propounded , that suckling might also be admitted to the consultation , but wilmot , ashburnham , and pollard would not hear of it ; and they three did then declare themselves against the armys marching towards london . then he took occasion to say , that he did acquaint some members of both houses , whom he could name , that there were some of the army whom they did not think so well of , were more faithful and serviceable to the parliament , than they were aware of , which time would produce , and named them ; and they did accordingly give testimony of his integrity , so far as general terms could discover the design : he confessed , that mr. iermin did make some offers unto him , to relinquish the government of portsmouth , upon some other terms of advantage ; but he said , he did not conclude any thing , for he would first see the performance of what was offered , so had no further discourse with him concerning that business , but he doth believe that suckling and iermin did confer together about the design ; he said , they did desire his opinion about a general ; some were for essex , some for holland , but he with iermin , were for newcastle . being again examined upon his oath , before the committee of lords and commons , and pressed more particularly to answer questions not before proposed unto him ; he did confess , that meeting with mr. iermin in the queens drawing-chamber , her majesty came and told him , the king would speak with him , and meeting with his majesty , he told him , he was minded to set his army into a good posture , being advised thereto by the earl of bristol ( as he said ) and his majesty then commanded him to joyn with mr. peircy , and some others in that business . as for the designs from beyond seas , the committee did make report to the house , that it was clear'd unto them , that iermin endeavoured to have got the possession of portsmouth ; that the king of france had drawn down great forces to the sea-side ; that the governor of calice had examined some englishmen , whether the earl of straffords head was yet off ? and this was in point of time the first of may , according to the english stile , and sir philip cartwright , governor of guernsey , wrote letters also , which came in great haste ; that he understood the french had a design upon that island , or some part of england . it also appeared to the committee by divers of the letters , which were opened coming from beyond sea , that they expected the earl of strafford there , and that they hoped the horseleeches should be starved for want of blood ; and in some of those letters , there was advice to the cardinal , to bestir himself betimes , to interrupt the height of the proceedings here in england . also examination of some priests were taken in lancashire , and sent up to london , which were there taken the of may , which did testify , that the priests did say , the parliament should be suddenly dissolved , for the army was to march up thither with all speed , and they would be seconded by forces out of france ; and that mountague did write out of france to mr peircy ( which was also intercepted ) that if he did perform what he had undertaken , he would be made a knight of the garter mr. peircys letter to the earl of northumberland , and by him presented to the parliament what with my own innocency , and the violence i hear is against me , i find my self much distracted ; i will not ask your counsel , because it may bring prejudice upon you , but i will with all faithfulness and truth tell you , what my part hath been , that at least it may be cleared by you , whatsoever becomes of me . when there was l. designed by the parliament for the english army , there was ( as i take it ) a suddain demand by the scots at the same time , of l , of which there was l. ready ; this they pressed with much necessity , so as the parliament did ( after an order made ) think it fit for them to reduct l. out of the l. formerly granted , upon which , the soldiers in our house were much scandalized , amongst which was one , and sitting by wilmot and ashburnham , wilmot stood up and told them , if that the scots could procure money , he doubted not but the officers of the english army might easily do the like ; but the first order was reversed notwithstanding , and l , given to the scots , this was the cause of many discourses of dislike among us , and came to this purpose , that they were disobliged by the parliament , and not by the king , this being said often to one another , we did resolve , that wilmot , ashburnham , pollard , o-neal , and my self , to make some expressions of serving the king in all things he would command us , that were honourable for him and us , being likewise agreeing to the fundamental laws of the kingdom , that so far we would live and dye with him . this was agreed upon with us , not having any communication with others , that i am coupled now with all ; and further , by their joynt consent , i was to tell his majesty thus much from them , but withal , i was to order the matter so , as the king might apprehend this as a great service done unto him at this time , that when affairs were in so ill a condition , and they were most confident they would ingage the whole army thus far , but further , they would undertake nothing , because they would neither infringe the liberty of the subjects , nor destroy the laws ; to which i and every one consented ; and having their sence , i drew the heads up in a paper , which they all approved of when i read it , and then we did by an oath , promise one another , to be constant and secret in all this , and did all of us take this oath together ; then i said , well sirs , i must now be informed , what your particular desires are , that so i may be the better able to serve you , which they were pleased to do ; and so i did very faithfully serve them therein , as far as i could : this is the truth , and all the truth , upon my soul. in particular discourses after that , we did fall upon the petitioning to the king and parliament for moneys , there being so great arrears due to us , and so much delays made in the procuring of them , but that was never done . the heads were these . . concerning the bishops functions and votes . . the not disbanding of the irish army , until the scots were disbanded to . . the endeavouring to settle his majesties revenue to that proportion it was formerly . and it was resolved by us all , if the king should require our assistance in those things , that as far as we could , we might contribute thereunto , without breaking the laws of the kingdom . and in case the king should be denyed , those things being put to them , we would not fly from him : all these persons did act and concur in this as well as i. this being all imparted to the king by me from them , i perceived he had been treated with by others , concerning some things of our army which agreed not with what was proposed by me , but tended to a way more sharp and high , not having limits , either of honor or law. i told the king he might be pleased to consider with himself , which of the ways it was fit for him to hearken unto ? for us , we were resolved not to depart from our grounds ; we should not be displeased whosoever they were , but the particular of the designs , or the persons , we desired not to know , though it was no hard matter to guess at them ; in the end , i believe the danger of the one , and the justice of the other made the king tell me , he would cast off all thoughts of other propositions but ours , as things not practicable , but desired notwithstanding , that goring and iermin , who were acquainted with the other proceedings , should be admitted amongst us ; i told him , i thought the other gentry would never consent to it , but i would propose it , which i did , and we were all much against it , but the king did press it so much , as at the last it was consented unto , and goring and iermin came to my chamber there : i was appointed to tell them , after they had sworn to secrecy , what we had proposed , which i did ; but before i go into the debate of the way , i must tell you , iermin and goring were very earnest suckling should be admitted , which we did all decline , and was desired by all our men to be resolute in it , which i was , and gave many reasons ; whereupon mr. goring made answer , he was ingaged with suckling , his being imployed in the army ; but for his meeting with us , they were content to pass it by : then we took up again the ways that were proposed , which took great debate , and theirs differed from ours in violence and heigth , which we all protested against , and parted disagreeing totally , yet remitted it to be spoken of by me and iermin to the king , which we both did , and the king constant to his former resolutions , told them these wayes were all vain and foolish , and would think of them no more . i omit one thing of mr. goring , he desired to know how the chief commands were to be disposed of , for if he had not a condition worthy of himself , he would not go along with us ; we made answer , that no body thought of that ; we intended , if we were sent down , to go all in the same capacity we were in , he did not like that by any means , and by that did work so with mr. chidley , that there was a letter sent by some of the commanders , to make him lieutenant-general ; and when he had ordered this matter at london , and mr. chidley had his instructions , then did he go to portsmouth , pretending to be absent when this was a working ; we all desired , my lords of essex or holland to be general , but goring and iermin were for newcastle . they were pleased to give report , that i should be general of the horse , but i protest , neither to the king , nor any else , did i so much as think of it ; my lord of holland was made general , and so all things were laid aside : and this is the truth , and all the truth i knew of these proceedings ; and this i will , and do protest unto you upon my faith , and wilmot , ashburnham , and o-neal , have at several times confessed and sworn ; i never said any thing in the business , they did not every one agree unto and justify . this relation i sent you , rather to inform you of the truth of the matter , that you may the better know how to do me good , but i should think my self very unhappy to be made a betrayer of any body ; what concerned the tower , or any thing else , i never medled withal , nor ever spake with goring , but that night before them all , and i said nothing but what was consented unto by any party ; i never spake one word with suckling , carnarvan , davenant , or any other creature . methinks , if my friends and kindred knew the truth and justice of the matter , it were no hard matter to serve me in some measure . afterwards was read father philips's letter to mr. mountague , as followeth ; the good king and queen are left very naked ; the puritans , if they durst , would pull the good queen in pieces . can the good king of france , suffer a daughter of france , his sister , and her children to be thus affronted ? can the wise cardinal endure england and scotland to unite , and not be able to discern , in the end , it is like they will joyn together , and turn head against france ? a stirring active ambassador might do good here ; i have sent you a copy of the kings speech on saturday last , at which time he discharged his conscience concerning the earl of strafford , and was advised to make that speech by the earl of bristol , and the lord savile . this speech did much operate to the disadvantage of the earl of strafford , for the commons were thereby much incensed and inflamed against him , and this brought forth the next day , being monday , a protestation which was taken in both houses of parliament of the same nature , but rather worse than the scotch covenant . the londoners , who are very boysterous , came upon monday , or , and were so rude , that they would not suffer the lords to come and go quietly and peaceably to their house , but threatened them , that if they had not justice , and if they had not his life , it should go hard for all those that stood for him ; following them up and down , and call●g for iustice , iustice , iustice. there was in the house of commons fifty six that denyed to pass the earl of straffords bill ; their names were taken , and they were fixed upon posts in divers parts in london , and there was written over head , these are straffordians , the betrayers of their countrey . by this means it came to pass , that the lords and judges were much affrighted , and the most of his friends in the lords house forsook him , all the popish lords did absent themselves , the lords of holland and hartford were absent , so was bristol and others ; savil and the duke only stuck close and faithfully to him , and some few other lords ; god knows , the king is much dejected , the lords much affrighted , which made the citizens and the house of commons shew their heads ; some have braved little less than to unthrown his majesty , who , if he had but an ordinary spirit , might easily quash and suppress these people . our good queen is much afflicted , and in my conscience , the puritans , if they durst , would tear her in pieces . this cannot be for the honor of france , to endure a daughter of that nation , to be oppressed and affronted . the earl of holland is made general of the army , whither he is gone down ; the earl of newport , master of the ordinance ; ballfower , lieutenant of the tower , hath proved an errand traitor to the king , who commanded him upon his allegiance , to receive a captain and men into the tower , which he most traiterously refused to do . there was a report in london , that the parliament house was on fire , whereupon there were many thousands of people very suddainly gathered together ; whereby you may easily see the height and violence of the peoples affections , may the th . ann. dom. . upon the reading of this letter , and exceptions taken to his expression , that the puritans would tear the queen in pieces , and to other passages in the letter ; and upon information also given , of his endeavouring to seduce the kings subjects to the popish religion : it was ordered he should be sent for to be examined ; who thereupon applyed himself to his majesty , and the king told him , he would know what the business was before he should go , as philips told the serjeant , and so refused to come with him ; hereupon the house of commons desired mr. treasurer to acquaint his majesty , that they had some cause to examine francis philips , a romish priest , and to that end sent him a summons , which he doth refuse to obey , and makes his majesties house a sanctuary in case of high treason ; that in respect to his majesty , the house doth forbear to take further course herein , till his majesty be further acquainted with it . hereupon father philips appeared , and was called to the bar of the house , where he first kneeled , and afterwards stood up , and being demanded the reason , wherefore he appeared not ? he answered , because the warrant was to apprehend francis philips , and his name was robert philips , and that the queen wish'd him to stay till he had spoken with the king , and the king told him , the house may send for him , when they call for any of his servants , till then he need not goe ; and the letter before mentioned , being produced unto him , he confessed the same to be his own hand-writing . the further examination of this business , was referred to the committee for the popish hierarchy , who drew up this impeachment following , the impeachment , and articles of complaint against father philips , the queens confessor , lately committed to the tower by the parliament . i. that the said father philips hath been observed to be a great cause , both in himself and his adherents , of a great part of the unquietness of this state. ii. he , with parsons , and others their assistants , were the only cause that the pope was stirred up to some breves to these kingdoms of england and scotland , to hinder the oath of allegiance , and lawful obedience of the subjects to our gracious king , that so they may still fish in troubled waters . iii. the damnable doctrine which he and other jesuits have taught , to destroy , and depose kings , hath been the cause of the civil wars , like to befall these kingdoms , if god in his mercy do not prevent it . iv. they have been the cause of the monopolies projected in this kingdom , especially concerning soap , the forrest of dean , and marking of butter-cask , where all the parties were partners , and confederates with them , as sir basil brook , sir iohn winter , and a brother-in-law of the said sir iohn , that lived in worcestershire , and mr. ployden , whose servant named baldwin , hath been seen to deliver to captain read , a substitute of the jesuits , an hundred pound at a time to one jesuite . v. father philips hath been a great actor with the superior of the capuchins , who is a most turbulent spirit , and was sent thither by cardinal richlieu of france , to be a spy at this court for the french faction : and hath therefore laboured by all means to breed dissentions ; for the french aim at nothing more , then to make a schism betwixt the english and the scots , that this state might so be weakened , and made unable to withstand them , that so they might have an opportunity to conquer these kingdoms ; these unquiet spirits having access to her majesty , may importune things not fit for the state. vi. the said father philips hath been guided by a gray fryer , who by degrees hath intruded himself to be a clerk of her majestys chappel , and chaplain extraord . in time of progress , who when he is out of london , goeth by the name of mr. wilson , but his true name is will. thomson dr. of divinity , as some jesuits have affirmed ; but a most furious spirit , and unquiet , and therefore by nickname , is by some called cacafugo , that is as much as if in english you should say shit-fire ; by whom father philips hath been so led , that he hath been very officious to perform whatsoever he would have done . these two have ruled all the business concerning the two kingdoms on the papists parts , and for the most part of rome also . vii . the said father philips hath placed many unfit persons about her majesty , viz. sir iohn winter to be her majesties secretary , signior georgeo come late agent from the pope , his brother was by his means admitted to be servant extraordinary to the queen , a man altogether unfit for that place , a most scandalous person , having three wives , all now alive . viii . sundry persons by the said father philips have been admitted to be the queens servants extraordinary , by some supposed office or other , as mr. laburn , geo. gage , ( brother to col. gage ) have both oratorian priests , the one of the french faction very seditious , the other of the spanish , whose brother is now left resident at rome for them , by his master mr. william hamilton late agent at rome ; penrick is sworn servant extraordinary to her majesty , who is a sworn spaniard , and intelligencer for rome , in respect his brother is agent here by father philips ; these and many others , who are factious and turbulent spirits , have by father philips his means , received protection from the queens majesty . ix . the said philips hath been much ruled by sir toby mathews , sir iohn winter , and mr. walter mountague . x. he was very forward with his complices , for the breaking of the ice to begin the treaty here for the popes honors sake , and when sir robert dowglas , and signior georgio were nominated , whom he thought most fit , cardinal richlieu was thought fittest to be the man who should direct him to begin the correspondency between the pope and the queen , and therefore he was sent to france with many letters , and from thence he was dispatched for rome by the cardinal , where he was received with great respect ; and after a viatick , he was dispatched again for england with some few small gifts , as pictures , crosses , agnus dei's , and such like popish stuff , to father philips . xi . the said father philips was the chief agent in correspondency with , and bringing in of signior georgio parsons , the oratorian priest , by whose direction this priest , being at paris , left wearing of priests cloaths , and went in the habit of a gentleman ; and because he had a shaven crown , therefore he wore a periwig , and father philips directed all those that sent to write to him , as to an italian gentleman , desirous to see these kingdoms , and by father philips's direction , he afterwards came hither , who did here contrive for the space of two years , practising great and dangerous innovations from place to place , and then having dispatched his business , returns to rome with great presents from the catholicks of the greater sort . xii . whereas it hath pleased god to bless us with a hopeful prince , to the comfort of our king and kingdom , yet the said father philips hath attempted to traduce his tender years to popery ; but god hath prevented him of his purpose , and let us pray to god to preserve that royal race from popery , and the whole land from all innovations , that our gracious king may rule gloriously , and the whole land live in peace to the honor of god , and comfort of us all , amen . resolved , that mr. henry peircy in the months of march and april last , in the parish of st. martins , in the county of middlesex , did compass , plot , and conspire with others , to draw the army together , and imploy the same against the parliament , and by force and dread thereof , to compel the parliament to agree to certain propositions by them contrived , and to hinder and interrupt the proceedings of the parliament ; the like resolution in the same words concerning mr. iermin , sir iohn suckling , &c. resolved , that in pursuance of the said design , the said henry peircy by the plot and combination aforesaid , did endeavour to perswade divers members of the house of commons of the said parliament and others , being officers of the said army , that is to say , wilmot , ashburnham , berkley , pollard , and daniel o-neal , that they were disobliged by the parliament , thereby to incense them , and to affect them against the parliament , and did hold divers consultations with the said parties , to effect the said wicked and dangerous design ; and to that purpose , did set down in writing certain propositions to the effect as followeth , viz. the preserving of bishops in their functions and votes ; the not disbanding of the irish army , until the scots were disbanded ; and the endeavouring to settle the kings revenue to the proportion it was formerly . resolved , that the said henry peircy did in pursuance of the plot and combination aforesaid , and for the more secret carriage thereof , administer to the said parties a wicked and unlawful oath , whereby they did swear upon the holy evangelists , not to reveal any thing , that was spoken concernig the business , that was in consultation , directly or indirectly , nor to think themselves absolved by any other oath that should be after taken by them , from the secresie enjoyned by the said oath . resolved , that the said henry peircy at the time of the said oath was taken , and at divers other times did propound and endeavour to perswade the persons before-named , and other officers of the said army , to put the said army into a warlike posture , and to bring them up to london , and likewise to make themselves sure of the tower , and so by force to compel the parliament to conform to their will , and he with suckling , &c. did endeavour to work a belief in the said army , that the king and parliament would disagree , and so to persuade them to adhere to his majesty against the parliament ; and said , that all the french about the city of london would assist them , and to the great scandal of the king , that the prince and the earl of newcastle were to meet the army at nottingham , with a thousand horse ; and that suckling to encompass the design of gaining the tower , did contrive , that men under capt. billing sley should be designed for that purpose , when the opportunity was offered . to the end the city of london should not be able to make any resistance , when the said army should come up , according to the forementioned design ; and suckling by the means and plot aforesaid , did thereby endeavour , that the earl of strafford , then prisoner in the tower , might the better incompass his escape . that berkley and o-neal being questioned , did flye for the same . resolved , that upon the whole matter , mr. pierce shall be charged with high treason , the like for iermin and suckling . that l. of the pole-money be paid to col. goring , for the use of the garrison of portsmouth . resolved , that col. goring in his depositions concerning this discovery , hath done nothing contrary to justice and honour , but hath therein deserved very well of the commons of this house . friday the th of may , the lords passed the bill of attainder , as also the bill for the continuance of this present parliament . saturday the th of may , mr. hotham was sent with a message to the house of lords , to desire their lordships to joyn with them , to move his majesty for his consent to the bill of attainder , in regard , the peace of the ringdom doth so much depend upon the execution of that bill , which had passed both houses ; and accordingly a certain number of the house of peers were sent unto his majesty , to acquaint him therewith ; and also with the bill for the continuance of this present parliament . the house being informed , that ships were ready to be put to sea , but that mariners could not be got . it was the same day resolved , that a bill should be drawn to enable the pressing of mariners for a certain time , the house being very tender of bringing the way of pressing into example by a law. sunday the th of may , the king called his privy council together at whitehall , and propounded several scruples unto them concerning that bill , some of the judges and bishops were present also , to whom his majesty imparted his doubts , and had their opinions therein . in fine , his majesty gave order for a commission to impower the earl of arundel , the lord privy seal , and two other lords , to give his assent to the bill , for the execution of the earl of strafford upon wednesday following ; as also to the other bill for the continuance of this present parliament . monday the th of may , the commission passed the great seal accordingly , and the commons were sent for to the house of lords , to be present at the giving the royal assent to both those bills . the same day his majesty sent a message to both houses , that the irish army should be instantly disbanded , and that he would that night dispatch an express for the expediting thereof . it was hereupon moved , that mr. treasurer be desired by the house of commons to return their humble thanks to his majesty , and to assure him , that they would make him as glorious a potentate , and as rich a prince , as any of his predecessors , his majesty continuing still to take the advice of his great council the parliament along with him , in the management of the great affairs of the kingdom . the earl of strafford understanding that his majesty had passed the bill , did humbly petition the house of peers . seeing it is the good will and pleasure of god , that your petitioner is now shortly to pay that duty which we all owe to our frail nature ; he shall in all christian patience and charity , conform and submit himself to your justice , in a comfortable assurance of the great hope laid up for us , in the mercy and merits of our saviour blessed for ever . only he humbly craves to return your lordships most humble thanks for your noble compassion towards those innocent children , whom now with his last blessing , he must commit to the protection of almighty god , beseeching your lordships to finish his pious intentions towards them , and desiring that the reward thereof may be fulfilled in you , by him that is able to give above all we are able to ask or think ; wherein i trust the honourable house of commons will afford their christian assistance . and so beseeching your lordships charitably to forgive all his omissions and infirmities , he doth very heartily and truly recommend your lordships to the mercies of our heavenly father , and that for his goodness he may perfect you in every good work , amen . tho. wentworth . whereas the knights , citizens , and burgesses of the house of commons in this present parliament assembled , have in the name of themselves , and of all the commons of england , impeached thomas earl of strafford of high treason , for endeavouring to subvert the antient and fundamental laws and government of his majesties realms of england and ireland , and to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannical government against law in the said kingdoms , and for exercising a tyrannous and exorbitant power over , and against the laws of the said kingdoms , and the liberties , estates , and lives of his majesties subjects ; and likewise having by his own authority commanded the laying and assessing of soldiers upon his majesties subjects in ireland , against their consents , to compel them to obey his unlawful summons and orders made upon paper-petitions in causes between party and party , which accordingly was executed upon divers of his majesties subjects in a warlike manner , within the said realm of ireland ; and in so doing , did levy war against the kings majesty and his liege people in that kingdom ; and also for that he , upon the unhappy dissolution of the last parliament , did slander the house of commons to his majesty , and did counsel and advise his majesty , that he was loose and absolved from the rule of government , and that he had an army in ireland , by which he might reduce this kingdom ; for which he deserves to undergo the pains and forfeitures of high treason . and the said earl hath been an incendiary of the wars between the two kingdoms of england and scotland ; all which offences have been sufficiently proved against the said earl upon his impeachment . be it therefore enacted by the kings most excellent majesty , and by the lords and commons in this present parliament assembled , and by the authority of the same , that the said earl of strafford , for the heinous crimes and offences aforesaid , stand , and be adjudged and attainted of high-treason , and shall suffer such pain of death , and incurr the forfeitures of his goods and chattels , lands , tenements and hereditaments of any estate of freehold , or inheritance in the said kingdoms of england and ireland , which the said earl , or any other to his use , or in trust for him , have or had the day of the first sitting of this parliament , or at any time since . * provided , that no judge or judges , justice , or justices whatsoever , shall adjudge or interpret any act or thing to be treason , nor hear or determin any treason in any other manner than he or they should , or ought to have done before the making of this act , and as if this act had never been had or made ; saving always unto all and singular persons , bodies politick and corporate , their heirs and successors , others then the said earl and his heirs , and such as claim from , by , or under him all such right title and interest of , in , and to all and singular such of the said lands , tenements and hereditaments , as he , they , or any of them had before the first day of this present parliament , any thing herein contain'd to the contrary notwithstanding . provided , that the passing of this present act , or his majesties assent thereunto , shall not be any determination of this present sessions of parliament ; but that this present sessions of parliament , and all bills and matters whatsoever depending in parliament , and not fully enacted or determined , and all statutes and acts of parliament , which have their continuance until the end of this present session of parliament , shall remain , continue , and be in full force as if this act had not been . the day following , the king wrote this letter to the lords on the behalf of the earl of strafford , and sent it by the prince . my lords , i did yesterday satisfie the iustice of the kingdom , by passing the bill of attainder against the earl of strafford ; but mercy being as inherent and inseparable to a king as iustice , i desire at this time in some measure to shew that likewise , by suffering that unfortunate man to fulfil the natural course of his life in a close imprisonment ; yet so , if ever he make the least offer to escape , or offer directly , or indirectly to meddle in any sort of publick business , especially with me , either by message or letter , it shall cost him his life , without further process ; this if it may be done without the discontentment of my people , will be an unspeakable contentment to me ; to which end , as in the first place , i by this letter do earnestly desire your approbation , and to endear it more , have chosen him to carry it , that of all your house is most dear to me ; so i desire that by a conference , you will endeavour to give the house of commons contentment , assuring you that the exercise of mercy is no more pleasing to me , than to see both houses of parliament consent for my sake , that i should moderate the severity of the law in so important a case . i will not say , that your complying with me in this my intended mercy , shall make me more willing , but certainly 't will make me more chearful , in granting your iust grievances . but , if no less then his life can satisfie my people , i must say , fiat justitia . thus again , recommending the consideration of my intention to you , i rest , your unalterable and affectionate friend , charles r. whitehall , th of may , . if he must dye , is were charity to reprieve him till saturday . this letter , all written with the kings own hand , and delivered by the hand of the prince , was twice read in the house , and after serious and sad consideration , the house resolved presently to send of the peers messengers to the king , humbly to signifie , that neither of the two intentions , expressed in the letter , could , with duty in them , or without danger to himself , his dearest consort the queen , and all the young princes their children , possibly be advised ; all which being done accordingly , and the reasons shewed to his majesty , he suffered no more words to come from them : but , out of the fulness of his heart , to the observance of justice , and for the contentment of his people , told them , that what he intended by his letter was , with an ( if ) if it might be done without discontentment of his people ; if that cannot be , i say again , the same i writ , fiat justitia : my other intnetion proceeding out of charity for a few days respite , was upon certain information , that his estate was so distracted , that it necessarily required some few days for settlement thereof . whereunto the lords answered ; their purpose was to be suitors to his majesty , for favour to be shewed to his innocent children ; and if himself had made any provision for them , the same might hold . this was well-liking unto his majesty , who thereupon departed from the lords : at his majesties parting they offered up into his hands the letter it self which he had sent ; but he was pleased to say , my lords , what i have written to you , i shall be content it be registred by you in your house ; in it you see my mind , i hope you will use it to my honour . this , upon return of the lords from the king was presently reported to the house by the lord privy-seal , and ordered that these lines should go out with the kings letter , if any copies of the letter were dispersed . the house being informed , that the queen-mother apprehending her self in some danger , by reason that divers words were scattered among the tumultuous assembly , as if they had some design upon her person , and those priests which she had for her own houshold , desired a guard for her security , concluded , that as to the security of her own person , they were bound in honour not to suffer any violence to be done unto her , and so referred it to a committee , to consider what was fit to be done in order thereto : which being reported by mr. henry martyn , he declared , that the committee had duely considered her majesties just fears , and therefore should agree to all good ways and means , that might conduce to the safety of her person . but fearing that the said means may notwithstanding prove ineffectual for her protection , that therefore the house would intreat the lords to joyn with them , humbly to beseech his majesty , that the queen mother may be moved to depart the kingdom , the rather for the quieting of those jealousies in the hearts of his majesties well-affected subjects , occasioned by some ill instruments about the said queens person , by the flocking of priests and papists to her house , and by the use and practice of the idolatry of the mass. wednesday the th of may. the earl of strafford was brought from the tower to the scaffold upon tower-hill , where the bishop of armagh , the earl of cleeveland , sir george vventworth , brother to the said earl of strafford , and others of his friends , were present , to take their leaves of him . but before he fitted himself to prostrate his body to execution , he desired patience of the people to hear him speak a few words , which the author took from his mouth , being then there on the scaffold with him , viz. my lord primate of ireland , and my lords , and the rest of these noble gentlemen , it is a great comfort to me to have your lordships by me this day , because i have been known to you a long time , and i now desire to be heard a few words . i come here , my lords , to pay my last debt to sin , which is death ; and through the mercies of god to rise again to eternal glory . my lords , if i may use a few words , i shall take it as a great curtesie from you ; i come here to submit to the judgment that is passed against me ; i do it with a very quiet and contented mind ; i do freely forgive all the world ; a forgiveness not from the teeth outward ( as they say ) but from my heart ; i speak in the presence of almighty god , before whom i stand , that there is not a displeasing thought that ariseth in me against any man : i thank god i say truly , my conscience beares me witness , that in all the honor i had to serve his majesty , i had not any intention in my heart , but what did aime at the joynt and individual prosperity of the king and his people ; although it be my ill hap to be misconstrued ; i am not the first man that hath suffered in this kind : it is a common portion that befalls men in this life , righteous judgment shall be hereafter ; here we are subject to error , and misjudging one another . one thing i desire to be heard in , and do hope , that for christian charities sake i shall be believed ; i was so far from being against parliaments , that i did always think parliaments in england to be the happy constitution of the kingdom and nation , and the best means , under god , to make the king and his people happy : as for my death , i do here acquit all the world , and beseech god to forgive them ; in particular , i am very glad his majesty conceives me not meriting so severe and heavy a punishment , as the utmost execution of this sentence ; i do infinitely rejoyce in it , and in that mercy of his , and do beseech god to return him the same , that he may find mercy when he hath most need of it . i wish this kingdom all prosperity and happiness in the world : i did it living , and now dying it is my wish . i profess heartily my apprehension , and do humbly recommend it to you , and wish that every man would lay his hand on his heart , and consider seriously , whether the beginning of the peoples happiness should be written in letters of blood ? i fear they are in a wrong way ; i desire almighty god , that no one drop of my blood rise up in judgement against them ; i have but one word more , and that is for my religion . my lord of armagh , i do profess my self seriously , faithfully , and truly to be an obedient son of the church of england ; in that church i was born and bred , in that religion i have lived , and now in that i dye ; prosperity and happiness be ever to it . it hath been said i was inclined to popery , if it be an objection worth the answering , let me say truly from my heart , that since i was twenty one years of age unto this day , going on years , i never had thought or doubt of the truth of this religion , nor had ever any the boldness to suggest to me the contrary , to my best remembrance . and so being reconciled to the mercies of jesus christ my saviour , into whose bosom i hope shortly to be gathered , to enjoy eternal happiness , which shall never have an end ; i desire heartily to be forgiven of every man , if any rash or unadvised words or deeds have passed from me ; and desire all your prayers ; and so my lord farewel ; and farewel all things in this world . the lord strengthen my faith , and give me confidence and assurance in the merits of christ jesus ; i trust in god we shall all meet to live eternally in heaven , and receive the accomplishment of all happiness , where every tear shall be wiped from our eyes , and sad thoughts from our hearts ; and so god bless this kingdom , and jesus have mercy on my soul. then turning himself about , he saluted all the noblemen , and took a solemn leave of all considerable persons on the scaffold , giving them his hand . and after that he said , gentlemen , i would say my prayers , and i intreat you all to pray with me , and for me : then his chaplain laid the book of common prayer upon the chair before him , as he kneeled down , on which he prayed almost a quarter of an hour , then he prayed as long or longer without a book , and ended with the lords prayer : then standing up , he spyed his brother sir george wentworth , and call'd him to him , and said , brother , we must part , remember me to my sister , and to my wife , and carry my blessing to my eldest son , and charge him from me , that he fear god , and continue an obedient son of the church of england , and that he approve himself a faithful subject to the king , and tell him , that he should not have any private grudge or revenge towards any concerning me , and bid him beware to meddle not with church livings , for that will prove a moth and canker to him in his estate , and wish him to content himself to be a servant to his countrey , as a justice of peace in his county , not aiming at higher preferments : carry my blessing also to my daughter ann , and arrabella , charge them to fear and serve god , and he will bless them , not forgetting my little infant , that knows neither good nor evil , and cannot speak for it self , god speak for it , and bless it . then said he , i have nigh done ; one stroak will make my wife husbandless , my dear children fatherless , and my poor servants masterless , and seperate me from my dear brother , and all my friends , but let god be to you and them all in all . after , that , going to take off his doublet , and to make himself unready , he said , i thank god i am no more afraid of death , nor daunted with any discouragements arising from any fears , but do as chearfully put off my doublet at this time , as ever i did when i went to bed ; then he put off his doublet , and wound up his hair with his hands , and put on a white cap. then he called , where is the man that should do this last office ? ( meaning the executioner ) call him to me ; when he came and ask'd him forgiveness , he told him , he forgave him and all the world ; then kneeling down by the block , he went to prayer again himself , the bishop of armagh kneeling on the one side , and the minister on the other ; to the which minister after prayer he turned himself , and spoke some few words softly , having his hands lifted up , the minister closed his hands with his ; then bowing himself to the earth , to lay down his head on the block , he told the executioner , that he would first lay down his head to try the fitness of the block , and take it up again , before he laid it down for good and all , and so he did ; and before he laid it down again , he told the executioner , that he would give him warning when to strike by streatching forth his hands , and then laid down his neck on the block , stretching out his hands , the executioner struck off his head at one blow , then took the head up in his hand ; and shewed it to all the people , and said ; god save the king. a copy of the paper containing the heads of the lord straffords last speech , written by his own hand , as it was left upon the scaffold . . i come to pay the last debt we ow to sin. . rise to righteousness . . dye willingly . . forgive all . . submit to what is voted iustice , but my intentions innocent from subverting , &c. . wishing nothing more than great prosperity to king and people . . acquit the king constrained . . beseech to repent . . strange way to write the beginning of reformation , and settlement of a kingdom in blood on themselves . . beseech that demand may rest there . . call not blood on themselves . . dye in the faith of the church . . pray for it , and desire their prayers with me . give me leave here to add two pretty passages more : the first is when my l. of strafford , the night before the day of execution , had sent for the lieutenant of the tower , and asked him , whether it were possible he might speak with the archbishop ; the lieutenant told him , he might not do it without orders from the parliament . master lieutenant ( said he ) you shall hear what passeth betwixt us ; it is not a time either for him to plot heresie , or me to plot treason . the lieutenant answered , that he was limited , and therefore desired his lordship , that he would petition the parliament for that favour : no , ( said he ) i have gotten my dispatch from them , and will trouble them no more ; i am now petitioning an higher court , where neither partiality can be expected , nor error feared . but my lord , said he , ( turning to the primate of ireland then present ) what i should have spoken to my lords grace of canterbury , is this , you shall desire the archbishop to lend me his prayers this night , and to give me his blessing when i go abroad to morrow , and to be in his window , that by my last farewel , i may give him thanks for this , and all other his former favours . my lord primate having delivered the message without delay , the archbishop replyed , that in conscience he was bound for the first , and in duty and obligation to the second ; but he feared his weakness and passion would not lend him eyes to behold his last departure . the next morning at his coming forth , he drew near to the archbishops lodgings , and said to the lieutenant , though i do not see the archbishop , give me leave i pray you to doe my last observance towards his rooms : in the mean time , the archbishop advertised of his approach , came out to the window , then the earl bowing himself to the ground , my lord ( said he ) your prayers , and your blessing ; the arch-bishop lift up his hands and bestowed both , but overcome with grief , fell to the ground in animi diliquio ; the earl proceeding a little further , bowed the second time , saying , farewel my lord , god protect your innocency . the next is , when he was marching to the scaffold , more like a general at the head of an army , as many of the spectators then said , to breath victory , than like a condemned man , to undergo the sentence of death ; the lieutenant desired him to take coach , for fear the people should rush in upon him and tear him in pieces ; no ( said he ) master lieutenant , i dare look death in the face , and i hope the people too ; have you a care that i do dot escape , and i care not how i dye , whether by the hand of the executioner , or the madness and fury of the people , if that may give them better content , it is all one to me . he left these three instructions for his son in writing . first , that he should continue still to be brought up under those governors , to whom he had committed him , as being the best he could pick out of all those within his knowledge , and that he should not change them , unless they were weary of him ; that he should rather want himself , than they should want any thing they could desire . secondly , if his prince should call him to publique service , he should carefully undertake it , to testify his obedience , and withal , to be faithful and sincereto his master , though he should come to the same end that himself did . thirdly , that he foresaw that ruine was like to come upon the revenues of the church , and that perhaps they might be shared amongst the nobility and gentry , but i charge you never to meddle with any of it , for the curse of god will follow all them that meddle with such a thing , that tends to the destruction of the most apostolical church upon earth . a brief account of some interlocutory passages in parliament , in which my lord of strafford so discovered his wit and temper , that the court took particular notice of him . in the month of september , . the king having special occasions , to be furnished with money , suitable to the importance of his undertakings , for the relief of the king of denmark , his majesty came to this resolution : that the urgency of affairs not admitting the way of parliament , the most speedy , equal , and convenient means were by a general loan from the subject , according as every man was assessed in the rolls of the last subsidy . upon which result , the king forthwith chose commissioners for the loan , and caused a declaration to be published , wherein he alledged for this course of supply , the reasons set down at large in his late declaration , touching the dissolution of the parliament o car. adding farther , that the urgency of the occasion would not give leave to the calling of a parliament . in the said year . sir thomas wentworth having a privy seal sent unto him about the loan-money , and to advance the sum of l. to the king , he ( amongst other things in the county of york ) refused to lend the same , as being a demand contrary to the right and property of the subject , to part with their money , but by consent of parliament . the non-subscribers of high rank , and rate in most counties , were bound over by recognizance , to tender their appearance at the council table , and divers of them were committed to prison ; but others also of quality , were appointed to several confinements , not in their own , but in remote counties . sir thomas wentworth and geo. ratcliffe , esq ( afterwards sir george ) were sent by messengers from the council , and removed out of the county of york into the county of kent , and there secured by confinement , and during this restraint and confinement , a parliament was called , which was to meet march . car. . in the month of iuly , before the calling of this parliament , the lord conway , secretary of state , brought a message from the king to arch-bishop abbot , that it was his majesties pleasure , he would withdraw from his houses at lambeth and croydon , and go to canterbury , and reside there . what is my fault ( said the arch-bishop ) that brings this message of removal and confinement upon me ? although ( said the secretary ) i have no commission to tell you , it is for a book you would not licence for the kings service ; and afterwards the arch-bishop understood more particularly , that besides that , it was because sir thomas wentworth made resort to the arch-bishops house , at times of dinner and supper . as for sir thomas wentworth , he had good occasion to send unto me , and sometimes to see me , because we were joynt executors to sir george savile , who married his sister , and was my pupil at oxford , to which son also , sir thomas wentworth and i were guardians , as may appear in the court of wards , and many things passed between us in that behalf ; yet to my remembrance , i saw not this gentleman but once these three quarters of a year last past , at which time he came to see his brother-in-law the lord clifford , who was then with me at dinner at lambeth . saturday , march the th . the time of the house was spent in opening the grievances , and state of the kingdom , as billeting of soldiers , benevolencies , and privy seals , and the imprisoning certain gentlemen , who refused to lend upon that account , &c. sir francis seymor spake first , and said , this is the great council of the kingdom , and here ( if not here alone ) his majesty may see , as in a true glass , the state of the kingdom , &c. we are called hither by his majesties writs , to give him faithful council , such as may stand with his honor ; but this we must do without flattery , we are sent hither by the commons to discharge the trust reposed in us , by delivering up their just grievances , and this we must do without fear : let us not therefore be like the cambyses judges , who being demanded of their king , whether it were not lawful for him to do what in it self was unlawful , they ( rather to please the king than to discharge their own consciences ) answered , that the persian kings might do what they listed , &c. flattery tends to mischief , being fitter for reproof than imitation , and as flattery , so fear taketh away the judgement ; let us not then be possessed with fear or flattery , of corruptions the basest : for my own part , i shall shun both these , and speak my conscience with as much duty to his majesty as any man , but not neglecting the publique , in which his majesty and the common-wealth have an interest : but how can we shew our affections , whilst we retain our fears ? or how can we think of giving subsidies , till we know whether we have any thing to give or no ? for if his majesty be perswaded by any to take from his subjects what he will , and where it pleashim , i would gladly know what we have to give ? after sir francis seymor had ended his speech , sir thomas wentworth stood up and said , this debate carrys a double aspect , towards the soverign and the subject , though both be innocent , both are injured , and both to be cured : surely in the greatest humility i speak it , these illegal ways are punishments and marks of indignation , the raising of loans strengthened by commission , with unheard of instructions and oaths ; the billeting of soldiers by the lieutenants , and deputy-lieutenants , have been as they could have perswaded christian princes , yea , worlds , that the right of empires , had been to take away by strong hands , and they have endeavour'd as far as possible for them to do it : this hath not been done by the king ( under the pleasing shade of whose crown , i hope we shall ever gather the fruits of justice ) but by projectors , who have extended the prerogative of the king , beyond the just symetry , which maketh a sweet harmony of the whole : they have brought the crown into greater want than ever , by anticipating the revenues ; and can the shepherd be thus smitten , and the sheep not scattered ? they have introduced a privy council , ravishing at once the spheres of all antient government ; imprisoning us without bail or bond ; they have taken from us , ( what shall i say indeed , what have they left us ? ) all means of supplying the king , and ingratiating our selves with him , taking up the root of all propriety , which if it be not seasonably set again into the ground by his majesties own hands , we shall have instead of beauty , baldness . to the making of those whole , i shall apply my self , and propound a remedy to all these diseases : by one and the same thing have king and people been hurt , and by the same must they be cured ; to vindicate which , shall we propound new things ? no , our antient vital liberties by enforcing the antient laws made by our ancestors , by setting forth such a character of them , as no licentions spirit shall dare to enter upon them , will do the business ; and shall we think this is a way to break a parliament ? no , our desires are modest and just , i speak truly , both for the interest of king and people ; if we enjoy not these , it will be impossible for to releive him . therefore let us never fear , they shall not be accepted by his goodness , wherefore i shall shortly descend to my motions , consisting of four parts , two of which have relation to our persons , two to the propriety of goods for our persons ; first , the freedom of them from imployment abroad , contrary to the antient customs : for our goods , that no levies be made , but by parliaments . secondly , no billeting of soldiers : it is most necessary , that these be resolved , that the subject may be secured in both . monday , march . secretary cook renewed the motion of supply for his majesty ; yet so , that grievances be taken into consideration ; we all think ( said he ) that both these goe hand in hand together : but let me put you in mind of that which concerns the king , let him have the precedency of honor , if not of time ; let heads of the kings supply be first propounded : no king is more ready to hear the complaints of his subjects ; and withal , you know , no king is more sensible of all reproaches which touch his honor : would it not be fit to grant him this honor to have the precedency , this will have good aspect abroad , it will prevent divisions at home , &c. the first sower of seeds of distractions amonst us , was an agent from spain ( gundemore ) that did his master great service here and at home ; since that , we have other ministers that have blown the fire ; the ambassador of france , who told his master at home , that he had wrought divisions here between king and people , and he was rewarded ; whilst we sate here in parliament , there was another intended parliament within a mile of this place ; this was discovered by letters sent to rome , and the place of their meeting is now changed ; i desire the meanest judgement will consider what may follow in giving precedency to his majesty ; in so doing , we shall put from our selves many imputations ; this matter coming to no resolution this day , secretary cook the next day tendred to the house certain propositions from the king , touching supply . viz. wednesday , march . . the propositions tendred the day before by secretary cook from his majesty , were now received and read , but the debate thereof was referred to another day : the propositions were these , viz. . to furnish with men and victuals , thirty ships to guard the narrow seas , and along the coasts . . to set out other ships for the relief of the town of rochelle . . to set out other ships for the preservation of the elbe , the sound , and baltick sea , &c. wednesday , april . . car. . the business of confinement came into debate in the house of commons , whereupon sir francis seymour spake to this effect . that it is said , the greatest grievance is want of supply , but i hold it a greater grievance , that his majesty is brought into these necessitys , especially , considering the supplys that of late have been given to the king , of two subsidies in parliament , besides privy seals ; and that the late loan , whereby five subsidies were forcedly , and unadvisedly taken ; that it is not then what the subjects do give , unless his majesty do employ men of integrity and experience ; otherwise , all that we give , will be as cast into a bottomless bag. upon this occasion sir thomas wentworth stood up and spake as followeth ; i cannot forget that duty i owe to my countrey ; unless we be secured as to our libertys we cannot give : i speak not this to make diversions , but to the end , that giving , i may give chearfully . as for the propositions made to induce us to give , and to be considered of , i incline to decline them , and to look upon the state of our countrey , whether it be fit to give or no. are we come to an end for our countreys libertys ? have we entrenched on the right of the deputy-lieutenants ? are we secured for time future ? whereupon mr. selden speaking also upon this occasion of the confinement of sir tho. wentworth , &c. said , that though confinement is different from imprisonment , yet it is against the law that any should be confined to his house or elsewhere . i know not what you can call a punishment , but here is some grounds of it , or mention thereof in acts of parliament , books of records , but for this confinement i find none ; indeed iews have been confined in former times to certain places , as here in london to the iewry , now called the old iewry , &c. hereupon sir tho. wentworth spake briefly as to sir peter heymans enforced imployment beyond seas ; that if any man ows a man a displeasure , and shall procure him to be put into forreign employment , it will be a matter of high concern in the effect . we know the honor and justice of the king , but we know not what his ministers , or the mediation of ambassadors may do , to hold their own wrath upon any man. april . car. . mr. secretary cook moved for expediting of subsidys , and turning of the votes into an act ( saying ) we have finally and chearfully given the king five subsidies , but no time is appointed , and subsidy without time is no subsidy , let us appoint a time . to which sir dudly diggs spake thus ; we have ( said he ) freely concluded our libertys ; we have offered five subsidys , his majesty hath given us gracious answers , and nothing is done that the king can take notice of , &c. hereupon sir tho. wentworth proposed a middle way , ( viz. ) that when we set down the time , be sure the subjects libertys go hand in hand together with the kings supply ; then to resolve of the time , but not to report it to the house till we have a ground , and a bill for our liberties ; this is the way to come off fairly , and prevent jealousies ; hereupon the committee of the whole house resolved , that grievances and supply goe hand in hand . may . car. mr. secretary cook delivered a message from his majesty , viz. to know whether the house would relye on his royal word or no , declared to them by the lord keeper ? which if they do , the king assured them it should be royally performed . sir robert phillips of somersetshire spake upon this occasion , and said ; that if the words of kings strike impressions in the hearts of subjects , to speak in a plain language , said he , we are now come to the end of our journey , and the well disposing of an answer to this message , will give happiness or misery to this kingdom ; let us set the common-wealth of england before the eyes of his majesty , that we may justify to the world , that we have demeaned our selves , as dutiful subjects to his majesty . hereupon sir thomas wentworth stood up and concluded the debate , saying , that never house of parliament trusted more in the goodness of their king , for their own private , than the present ; but we are ambitious , that his majestys goodness may remain to posterity , and we are accountable to publique trust , and therefore seeing there hath been a publique violation of the laws by his ministers , nothing will satisfy him but a publique mends ; and to our desire vindicate the subjects rights by bill , is no more than is laid down in former laws , with some modest provision for restriction , performance , and execution ; and this so well agreed with the sense of the house ; that they made it the subject of a message to be delivered by the speaker to his majesty . whilst the lords afterwards were in debate of the petition of right , they were pleased at a conference to propose to the commons , this following addition to the petition of right , viz. . we present this our humble petition to your majesty , with the care , not only of preserving our own liberties , but with due regard to leave intire the sovereign power , wherewith your majesty is trusted for the protection , safety , and happiness of the people . upon this , sir edward cook spake , saving , this is magnum in parvo , this is propounded to be a conclusion of our petition ; it is a matter of great weight , and to speak plainly , it will overthrow all our petition , it trenches on all parts of it . look into the petition of former times , they never petitioned , wherein there was a saving of the kings sovereignty ; i know the prerogative is part of the law , but sovereign power is no parliamentary word &c. sir thomas wentworth spake next , and said , if we do admit of this addition , we shall leave the subjects worse than we found them , and we shall have little thanks for our labour when we come home ; let us leave all power to his majesty to punish malefactors , but these laws are not acquainted with sovereign power , we desire no new thing , nor do we offer to trench upon his majestys prerogative , we may not recede from this petition , neither in part or in whole ; to add a saving is not safe , doubtful words may beget an ill construction , and the words are not only doubtful words , but words unknown to us , and never asked in one act or petition before . . now he began to be more generally taken notice of by all men , and his fame to spread abroad , where publique affairs , and the criticismes of the times were discoursed by the most refined judgments ; those who were infected with popularity , flattering themselves , that he was inclined to support their inclination , and would prove a champion upon that account ; but such discourse , as it endeared him to his countrey , so it begot to him an interest in the bosom of his prince , who , ( having a discerning judgment of men ) quickly made his observation of wentworth , that he was a person framed for great affairs , and fit to be near his royal person and councils . about this time , in the heat of so general a report of him ; sir richard weston , then lord high treasurer after earl of portland , a person also eminent for his acute and clear parts , coveted acquaintance with this gentleman ; and there not being wanting discreet agents to accomplish what my lord treasurer desired , it was soon effected . after the first view a familiarity was begotten , and next a deep friendship . it happened , that in some conferences , they touched upon the popular humor ( as they termed it ) then appearing in the house of commons , and the present ways they were in as tending to no good , he proposed the most rational and plausible mediations that could be , for the present juncture of affairs , in somuch , that his judgment in things was much valued and followed . in some time after he was made baron wentworth , and had so gained his majesties opinion , that he was also created viscount wentworth of wentworth-woodhouse , made one of his majestys privy council , lord-lieutenant of the county of york , and lord-president of the north ; in this trust he governed himself with such skill , especially in those high contested points then in consultation , that he pleased his prince , and improved his majesties revenue . his frequent appearance at the council-board , quickly gave occasion to that great prelate archbishop laud ( then bishop of london ) and himself , to discern one anothers parts , begetting a right understanding betwixt them , which grew into so inviolable a friendship , that nothing but the inevitable stroke of death could separate them , who , whilst they lived , constantly united their great hearts and understandings , for the advancing the church , and the service of their prince . the cedar was still growing , though perhaps , to the dislike of some emulators , yet to the general satisfaction of all such as had ability enough to judge of his parts . his next advance was to be lord-deputy , and chief governor of ireland : the affairs of that realm being in much disorder by the temper of the popish party there , who did not with moderation , make use of the kings clemency to them , in relaxation of the rigor of some penal statutes . he began with the church , in the reformation of his kingdom , and first procured of the king , by the joynt mediation of the archbishop , that all the impropriations then in the crown , would be restored to the church in that nation , though to some diminution of the royal revenue , and advanced learned men , whose judgments were for episcopacy . he raised in ireland eight regiments for the kings service , each consisting of men , in ten companies , besides two more , which he intended to be raised in the nearest part of wales . before this army already raised , was dispersed into their several quarters , all which were in the province of ulster , near the sea , in sight of scotland , the lord-lieutenant returned into england by his majesties command , where an army-royal was levied , in opposition to the scotish design , leaving an honourable person mr. christopher wandesford , master of the rolls , lord-deputy ; the command of general of that royal army in england , was given to the earl of northumberland , then lord-admiral of england , upon whose sickness the earl of strafford was made lieutenant-general , who having undertaken the command of this army , signified by letter from dublin to the archbishop laud , that he durst venture ( upon peril of his head ) to drive the scots out of england , but that he did not hold it proper , as the case then stood for him to advise that course ; but if any of the lords would advise the king to try his fortune in battle , he doubted not of sending them home in more hast than they came ; but this severity and indiscretion of his against that kingdom when things were ripe , did much hasten his ruine and destruction , as may be seen by the following impeachment . the charge of the scotish commissioners against thomas earl of strafford . in our declarations we have joyned with canterbury , the lord-lieutenant of ireland , whose malice hath set all his wits and power on work , to devise , and do mischief against our kirk and countrey . no other cause of his malice can we conceive , but , first his pride , and supercilious disdain of the kirk of scotland , which in his opinion , declared by his speeches , hath not in it almost any thing of a kirk , although the reformed kirks , and many worthy divines of england , have given ample testimony to the reformation of the kirk of scotland . secondly , our open opposition against the dangerous innovation of religion intended and very far promoted in all his majesties dominions , of which he hath shewed himself in his own way , no less zealous than canterbury himself , as may appear by advancing of his chaplain , dr. bramhal , not only to the bishoprick of derry , but also to be vicar-general of ireland ; a man prompted for exalting of canterburian popery , and arminianism , that thus himself might have the power of both swords , against all that should maintain , the reformation , by his bringing of dr. chappel , a man of the same spirit , to the university of dublin , for poysoning the fountains , and corrupting the seminarys of the kirk . thirdly , when the primate of ireland did press a new ratification of the articles of that kirk in parliament , for barring such novations in religion , he boldly menaced him with the burning by the hand of the hangman , all of that confession , although confirmed in former parliaments . when he found that the reformation began in scotland did stand in his way , he left no means unassaied to rub disgrace upon us , and our cause . the pieces printed at dublin , viz. examen conjurationis scotianae , the ungirding of the scotish armor : and the pamphlet , bearing the counterfeit name of lisimachus nicanor , all three so full of calumnies , slanders , scurril●ys against our countrey , and reformation , that the jesuits in their greatest spite , could not have said more , yet not only the authors were countenanced and rewarded by him , but the books must bear his name , as the great patron both of the work and workman . when the national oath and covenant warranted by our general assemblies , was approved by parliament , in the articles subscribed in the kings name , by his majesties high commissioner , and by the lords of the privy-council , and commanded to be sworn by his majesties subjects of all ranks , and particular , and plenary information was given unto the lieutenant , by men of such quality , as he ought to have believed of the loyalty of our hearts to the king , of the lawfulness of our proceedings , and innocency of our covenant , and whole course , that he could have no excuse : yet his desperate malice made him to bend his craft and cruelty , his fraud and forces against us . for first , he did craftily call up to dublin some of our countreymen , both of the nobility and gentry , living in ireland , shewing them that the king would conceive , and account them as conspirers with the scots in their rebellious courses , except some remedy were provided ; and for remedy , suggesting his own wicked invention , to present unto him , and his own wicked invention , to present unto him and his own wicked council , a petition , which he caused to be framed by the bishop of rapho , and was seen and corrected by himself , wherein they petitioned to have an oath given them , containing a formal renunciation of the scotish covenant , and a deep assurance , ne-never so much as to protest against any of his majesties commandments whatsoever . no sooner was this oath thus craftily contrived , but in all hast it is sent to such places of the kingdom , where our countreymen had residence ; and men , women , and all other persons above the years of sixteen , constrained either presently to take the oath , and thereby renounce their national covenant , as seditious and traiterous , or with violence and cruelty to be haled to the jail , fined above the value of their estates , and to be kept close prisoners , and so far as we know , some are yet kept in prison , both men and women of good quality , for not renouncing that oath which they had taken years since , in the obedience to the king , who then lived . besides , a cruelty ensued , which may paralel the pesecutions of the most unchristian time : for weak women dragged to the bench to take the oath , dyed in the place both mother and child , hundreds driven to hide themselves , till in the darkness of the night they might escape by sea into scotland , whether thousands of them did flye , being forced to leave corn , cattle , houses , and all they possessed , to be a prey to their persecuting enemies , the lieutenants officers . and some indicted and declared guilty of high treason , for no other guiltyness , but for subscribing our national oath , which was not only impiety and injustice in it self , and an utter undoing of his majestys subjects , but was a weakening of the scotch plantation , to the prejudice of that kingdom , and his majesties service , and was a high scandal against the kings honor , and intolerable abuse to his majesties trust and authority , his majesties commission , which was procured by the lieutenant , bearing no other penalty , than a certification of noting the names of the refusers of the oath . but this his restless rage , and insatiable cruelty against our religion and countrey , could not rest here , nor be kept within the bounds of ireland , but proceeded further , so that by this means a parliament is called , and although by the six subsidies granted in parliament not long before , and by the base means which himself and his officers did use ( as is contained in a late remonstrance ) that land was extreamly impoverished , yet by his speeches full of oaths and asseverations , that we were traitors and rebels , casting off all monarchical government , &c. he extorted from them four new subsidies , & indicta causa , before we were heard , procured that a war was undertaken , and forces should be levied against us , as a rebellious nation , which was also intended to be an example and precedent to the parliament of england , for granting subsidies , and sending a joynt army for our utter ruine . according to his appointment in parliament , the army was gathered , and brought down to the coast , threatning a daily invasion of our countrey , intending to make us a conquered province , and to destroy our religion , liberties , and laws , and thereby laying upon us , a necessity of vast charges , to keep forces on foot on the west coast , to wait upon his coming . and as the war was denounced , and forces levied before we were heard ; so before the denouncing of the war , our ships and goods on the irish coast were taken , and the owners cast in prison , and some of them in irons . frigats were sent forth to scour our coasts , by which they did take some , and burn others of our barques . having thus incited the kingdom of ireland , and put his forces in order there against us , with all hast he cometh to england . in his parting , at the giving up of the sword , he openly avowed our utter ruine and desolation , in these or the like words , if i return to that honourable sword , i shall leave of the scots neither root nor branch . how soon he cometh to court , as before he had done very evil office against our commissioners , clearing our proceedings before the point ; so now he useth all means to stir up the king and parliament against us , and to move them to a present war , according to the precedent , and example of his own making in the parliament of ireland . and finding that his hopes failed him , and his designs succeeded not that way , in his nimbleness he taketh another course , that the parliament of england may be broken up , and despising their wisdom and authority , not only with great gladness accepteth , but useth all means that the conduct of the army in the expedition against scotland , may be put upon him ; which accordingly he obtaineth as general captain , with power to invade , kill , slay , and save at his discretion , and to make any one or more deputies in his stead , to do , and execute all the power and authorities committed to him . according to the largeness of his commission , and letters patents of his devising , so were his deportments afterwards ; for when the scots , ( according to their declarations sent before them ) were coming in a peaceable way , far from any intention to invade any of his majesties subjects , and still to supplicate his majesty for a setled peace , he gave order to his officers to fight with them on the way , that the two nations once entred in blood , whatsoever should be the success , he might escape trial , and censure , and his bloody designs might be put in execution against his majesties subjects of both kingdoms . when the kings majesty was again enclined to hearken to our petitions , and to compose our differences in a peaceable way , and the peers of england convened at york , had , as before , in their great wisdom and faithfulness , given unto his majesty counsels of peace , yet this firebrand still smoaketh , and in that honourable assembly , taketh upon him to breath out threatenings against us as traitors , and enemies to monarchical government ; and threatened that we be sent home home again in our blood , and he will whip us out of england . and as these were his speeches in the time of the treaty appointed by his majesty at rippon , that if it had been possible , it might have been broken up . so when a cessation of arms was happily agreed upon there , yet he ceaseth not , but still his practises were for war ; his under-officers can tell who it was that gave them commission to draw near in arms beyond the teese , in the time of the treaty at rippon . the governor of berwick and carlisle can shew from whom they had their warrants for their acts of hostility , after the cessation was concluded . it may be tryed how it cometh to pass , that the ports of ireland are yet closed , our countreymen for the oath still kept in prison , traffique interrupted , and no other face of affairs , then if no cessation had been agreed upon . we therefore desire , that your lordships will represent to the parliament , that this great incendiary upon these and the like offences , not against particular persons , but against kingdoms and nations , may be put to a tryal , and from their known and renowned justice , may have his deserved punishment . this noble earl was in person of a tall stature , something inclining to stooping in his shoulders , his hair black and thick , which he wore short , his countenance of a grave well composed symetry , and good features , only in his forehead he exprest more severity than affability , yet a very courteous person . and as he went from the tower to the scaffold , his countenance was in a mild posture , between dejection in contrition for sin , and a high courage , without perceiving the least affection of disguise in him . he saluted the people as he walked on foot from the tower to the scaffold , often putting off his hat unto them , sometimes to the right , and sometimes to the left hand , being apparelled in a black cloth suit , having white gloves on his hands . and tho at this time there were gathered together on the great open place on tower-hill , where the scaffold stood , a numerous croud of people , standing as thick as they could by one another , over all that great hill ; insomuch , as by the modest computation , they could not be esteemed to be less than people ; yet as he went to the scaffold , they uttered no reproachful or reflecting language upon him . he had three wives , the first the lady margaret clifford , sister to the earl of cumberland , who left no issue . the second , the lady arabella hollis , sister to the earl of clare , who left him his only son william , now earl of strafford , and two daughters . the third wife , was daughter to sir francis rhodes of yorkshire , by whom he had one daughter , an infant at the time of his death . on the first of december in the th year of the kings reign , by his majesties letters patents , his son william was restored to all his fathers dignities and titles , and was made knight of the most noble order of the garter , having doubled his paternal glorys and his own , by marrying the worthy daughter of two incomparable parents , henrietta maria , the daughter of iames earl of darby , and charlotte , daughter of claude , duke de temoille and charlotte of nassaw , daughter to william , prince of orange . a brief account of his secretary slingsby . mr. slingsby his secretary , after the death of this noble lord , presently left the kingdom , and was received beyond the seas into the queens favour , and by her majesty designed secretary to the prince of wales ( now our gracious sovereign ) but in his zeal to the kings service , and to enable himself to attend her majesty upon her landing , he transported himself into cleveland , where he had but a small estate , but so much a bigger interest , that in a very short time , he levied eight hundred foot , and eighty horse , with intention to make up a full regiment , and troop to wait upon the queen . he made his quarters at gisborough in cleveland , but before the foot were disciplined in the use of arms , he was attacqued by sir hugh cholmley with horse and foot , and some brass drakes , mr. slingsby ( who was wholly educated in civil affairs , never in the active military part ) having timely notice of his adversaries approach , thought not of any retreat , but addresses himself and party immediately , to draw out and fight the enemy , notwithstanding the inequality in number . at his first charge mr. slingsby ( having seasoned old soldiers in his troop , which he brought out of holland ) worsted their horse , and had some pursuit and execution , but being allarmed behind , by the noise of an engagement , betwixt the bodys of foot , found his regiment totally dissipated , beyond all hopes of rallying ; whereupon he employed his courage upon the enemies foot , in which charge his horse fell , and himself wounded with many case-shot , and became prisoner . the relation of bloud moved sir hugh cholmly to a generous regard and care of him , he was carried back to gisborough , where ( in order to the saving of his life ) both his legs were cut off above the knee , after which he lived three days . the lady slingsby his disconsolate mother , hastened from york ( betwixt hopes of life and fear of death ) to gisborough , where she found the late hopes of her family , and support of her age lying dead ; and sir hugh was as much concerned as his parent , for the loss of so accomplished a gentleman . his body was carried to york , and there with very honourable solemnitys interred in the cathedral-church , after a sermon preached by dr. bramhall , then bishop of london-derry , and late primate of ireland , who had a large experience of him . he was eldest son of sir guilford slingsby , of the family of screuen , and red-house , in the county of york ; his fathers estate did lye in cleveland in the said county ; he was educated first at the university at st. andrews in scotland , and afterwards studied some years in the university of oxford . sir guilford his father dying , the earl of strafford received this gentleman in his retinue , among other young gentlemen of quality , upon his going first into ireland , where his deportment , after some time , made his lord to promote him to be secretary , and afterwards lieutenant of the ordinance , and vice-admiral of munster . lastly , his lord made choice of him before all others , to stand by him , and manage all his papers , during his confinement and trial ; and immediately after the bill of attainder did pass both houses , the earl wrote this ensuing letter unto him . a letter from the earl of strafford to his secretary guilford slingsby , esq after the passing of the bill of attainder , under his own hand . i would not , as the case now stands , for any thing , you should endanger your self , being a person in whom i shall put a great part of my future trust ; and therefore in any case absent your self for a time , yet so , as i may know where you are , and therefore send your man back , that i may know whither to direct any thing i have to impart to you , and that presently , and after that , let your man come as little about this place as may be : your going to the king is to no purpose , i am lost , my body is theirs , but my soul is gods ; there is little trust in man , god may yet ( if it please him ) deliver me , and as i shall ( in the best way he shall enable me unto ) prepare my self for him , so to him i submit all i have ; the person you were last withal at court , sent to move that business we resolved upon , which if rightly handled , might perchance doe something ; but you know my opinion in all , and what my belief is in all these things ; i should by any means advise you to absent your self , albeit never so innocent , as you are , till you see what becomes of me ; if i live , there will be no danger for you to stay , but otherwise keep out of the way till i be forgotten , and then your return may be with safety . i mean indeed , to leave you one in trust for my children , and thank you for your readiness to look after it . time is precious , and mine i expect to be very short , and therefore no part of it to be lost . god direct and prosper you in all your ways ; and remember there was a person whom you were content to call master , that did very much value and esteem you , and carried to his death a great stock of his affection for you , as for all your services , so for this your care towards me all this time of my tryal and affliction ; and however it be my misfortune to be decryed at present , yet in more equal times , my friends ( i trust ) shall not be ashamed to mention the love to their children , for their fathers sake . your affectionate friend , strafford . the reflections of king charles the i. upon the earl of straffords death . i looked upon my lord of strafford as a gentleman , whose great abilities might make a prince rather afraid , than ashamed to imploy him , in the greatest affairs of state. for those were prone to create in him great confidence of undertakings , and this was like enough to betray him to great errors , and many enemies : whereof he could not but contract good store , while moving in so high a sphear , and with so vigorous a luster , he must needs ( as the sun ) raise many envious exhalations , which condensed by a popular odium , were capable to cast a cloud upon the brightest merit and integrity . though i cannot in my judgment approve all he did , driven ( it may be ) by the necessities of times , and the temper of that people , more than led by his own disposition to any height and rigor of actions : yet i could never be convinced of any such criminousness in him , as willingly to expose his life to the stroke of justice and malice of his enemies . i never met with a more unhappy conjuncture of affairs , than in the business of that unfortunate earl ; when between my own unsatisfiedness in conscience , and a necessity ( as some told me ) of satisfying the importunities of some people ; i was perswaded by those , that i think wished me well , to chuse rather what was safe , than what seemed just : preserring the outward peace of my kingdoms with men , before that inward exactness of conscience before god. and indeed , i am so far from excusing or denying that compliance on my part ( for plenary consent it was not ) to his destruction , whom in my judgment i thought not , by any clear law guilty of death ; that i never did bear any touch of conscience with greater regret : which , as a sign of my repentance , i have often with sorrow confessed , both to god and men , as an act of so sinful frailty , that it discovered more a fear of man , than of god , whose name and place on earth no man is worthy to bear , who will avoid inconveniencies of state , by acts of so high injustice , as no publique convenience can expiate or compensate . i see it a bad exchange to wound a mans own conscience , thereby to salve state sores ; to calm the storms of popular discontents , by stirring up a tempest in a mans own bosom . nor hath gods justice failed in the event and sad consequences , to shew the world the fallacy of that maxim , better one man perish ( though unjustly ) than the people be displeased or destroyed . for , in all likelyhood , i could never have suffered with my people , greater calamities ( yet with greater comfort ) had i vindicated straffords innoncency , at least by denying to sign that destructive bill , according to that justice which my conscience suggested to me , then i have done since i gratified some mens unthankful importunities with so cruel a favour ; and i have observed , that those , who counsell'd me to sign that bill , have been so far from receiving the rewards of such ingratiatings with the people , that no men have been harassed and crushed more than they : he only hath been least vexed by them , who counselled me , not to consent against the vote of my own conscience ; i hope god hath forgiven me and them the sinful rashness of that business . to which , being in my soul so fully conscious , those judgments god hath pleased to send upon me , are so much the more welcome , as a means ( i hope ) which his mercy hath sanctified so to me , as to make me repent of that unjust act ( for so it was to me ) and for the future to teach me , that the best rule of policy is to preferr the doing of justice before all enjoyments , and the peace of my conscience , before the preservation of my kingdoms . nor hath any thing more fortified my resolutions , against all those violent importunities , which since have sought to gain a like consent from me , to acts , wherein my conscience is unsatisfied , than the sharp touches i have had for what passed me , in my lord of straffords business . not that i resolved to have employed him in my affairs , against the advice of my parliament ; but i would not have had any hand in his death , of whose guiltlesness i was better assured , than any man living could be . nor were the crimes objected against him so clear , as after a long and fair hearing , to give convincing satisfaction to the major part of both houses ; especially that of the lords , of whom scarce a third part were present , when the bill passed that house : and for the house of commons , many gentlemen disposed enough to diminish my ld. of straffords greatness and power , yet unsatisfied of his guilt in law , durst not condemn him to dye : who for their integrity in their votes , were , by posting their names , exposed to the popular calumny , hatred , and fury , which grew then so exorbitant in their clamors for iustice , ( that is , to have both my self , and the two houses vote , and do as they would have us ) that many ( 't is thought ) were rather terrified to concur with the condemning party , than satisfied , that of right they ought so to do . and that after act , vacating the authority of the precedent , for future imitation , sufficiently tells the world , that some remorse touched even his most implacable enemies , as knowing he had very hard measure , and such as they would be very loath should be repeated to themselves . this tenderness and regret i find in my soul , for having had any hand ( and that very unwillingly , god knows ) in shedding one mans bloud unjustly ( though under the colour and formalities of justice and pretences of avoiding publique mischiefs ) which may , i hope , be some evidence before god and man , to all posterity , that i am far from bearing justly , the vast load and guilt of all that blood which hath been shed in this unhappy war ; which some men will needs charge upon me , to ease their own souls , who am , and ever shall be more afraid , to take away any mans life unjustly , than to lose my own . an act for reversing the earl of strafford's attainder . whereas thomas late earl of strafford , was impeached of high-treason , upon pretence of endeavouring to subvert the fundamental laws , and called to a publique and solemn arraignment , and tryal before the peers in parliament , where he made a particular defence to every article objected against him ; insomuch that the turbulent party then seeing no hopes to effect their unjust designs , by any ordinary way and method of proceedings , did at last resolve to attempt the destruction and attainder of the said earl , by an art of parliament , to be therefore purposely made to condemn him upon accumulative treason , none of the pretended crimes being treason apart , and so could not be in the whole , if they had been proved , as they were not ; and also adjudged him guilty of constructive treason ( that is , of levying war against the king ) though it was only the commanding an order of the council-board in ireland , to be executed by a sergeant at arms , and three or four soldiers , which was the constant practice of the deputies there for a long time : to the which end , they having first presented a bill for this intent , to the house of commons , and finding there more opposition than they expected , they caused a multitude of tumultuous persons to come down to westminster , armed with swords and staves , and to fill both the palace-yards , and all the approaches to both houses of parliament , with fury and clamor , and to require justice , speedy justice against the earl of strafford ; and having by those and other undue practices , obtained that bill to pass the house of commons , they caused the names of those resolute gentlemen , who in a case of innocent blood , had freely discharged their consciences , being fifty nine , to be posted up in several places about the citys of london and westminster , and stiled them straffordians . and enemies to their countrey , hoping thereby to deliver them up to the fury of the people , whom they had endeavoured to incense against them , and then procured the said bill to be sent up to the house of peers , where it having some time rested under great deliberation ; at last , in a time , when a great part of the peers were absent , by reason of the tumults , and many of those who were present , protested a gainst it , the said bill passed the house of peers ; and at length his majesty , the late king charles the i. of glorious memory , granted a commission for giving his royal assent thereunto , which nevertheless was done by his said majesty , with exceeding great sorrow then , and ever remembred by him with unexpressible grief of heart , and out of his majestys great piety , he did publiquely express it , when his own sacred life was taken away by the most detestable traytors that ever were . for all which causes be it declared and enacted by the kings most excellent majesty , by , and with the advice and consent of the lords spiritual and temporal , and commons in this present parliament assembled , that the act entituled , an act for the attainder of thomas earl of strafford of high treason , and all and every clause and article , and thing therein contained , being obtained as aforesaid , is now hereby repealed , revoked , and reversed . and to the end that right be done to the memory of the deceased earl of strafford aforesaid ; be it further enacted , that all records and proceedings of parliament , relating to the said attainder , be wholly cancell'd , and taken off the file , or otherwise defaced , and obliterated , to the intent , the same may not be visible in after ages , or brought into example , to the prejudice of any person whatsoever . provided , that this act shall not extend to the future questioning of any person or persons , however concerned in this business , or who had any hand in the tumults , or disorderly procuring the act aforesaid , any thing herein contained to the contrary thereof notwithstanding . the table . a. abstract of the earls answer to the articles , pa. . to account introductive of several passages previous to the tryal of thomas earl of strafford . p. . accusation of high treason , of thomas earl of strafford , p. . accusation of sir george ratcliffe , p. . act of attainder at large , . mr. st. johns argument of law , concerning the same , . to . it is read a second time , . lord digby's speech to that bill , . exceptions taken thereat by some members , act of attainder , as also the act for continuance of this present parliament past the lords , a message to the lords to send to his majesty for his consent to the bill of attainder , and the continuance of this present parliament , . act of reversal of this bill of attainder , adjournment of the commons upon the kings speech , may . . answer of the earl read , containing sheets of paper , . army in ireland new levied , to be disbanded , and eight articles against the earl in maintainance of his accusation , , . articles of high treason voted against sir george ratcliffe , . twenty eight articles against the earl , sent up to the lords , . they are at large inserted , . article ii. read , charging the earl with words , saying the kings little finger should be heavier than the loins of the law , &c. . names of witnesses , their evidence , exception taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply , as to that article , to . artice iii. read , charging him with words , saying , that ireland was a conquered nation , that the king might do with it as he pleased , names of witnesses , their evidence , exception taken , interlocutory passages ; defence and reply as to that article , to artic. iv. read , charging him with words , that he would make all ireland know , that any act of state there made , should be as binding as an act of parliament , . names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply as to that article , to . article v. read , charging him , that he did procure to be given against the lord mountnorris sentence of death in a council of war , , and the sentence read . names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply as to that article , to . article vi. read , charging him with putting the lord mountnorris out of possession of his freehold , upon a paper-petition , . names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply , as to that aticle , to . article viii read , charging him with causing the lord loftus , lord chancellor of ireland , to be close prisoner , . names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply as to that article , to . article ix . read , charging him with assuming a power above law , to give a general warrant to the bishops officers , to arrest the body of such as do not obey ecclesiastical decrees , sentences , &c. and to commit them , and a copy produced , . passages interlocutory , defence and reply , to . article x. read , wherein he is charged with procuring the customs to be farmed to his own use ; and did procure the native commodities of ireland to be rated in the book of rates for the customs , the case stated by mr. maynard , names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply as to that article , to article xi , agreed for the present to be laid aside , article xii . read , charging him with making a monopoly of tobacco , getting the whole trade into his hands , names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply as to that article , to article xiii . read , charging him with getting great quantities of flax into his hands , enjoyning the working thereof into yarn and thread , &c. names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply as to that article , to article xiv . laid aside for the present , article xv. read , charging the earl with imposing great sums of money upon people without warrant or colour of law , and causing the same to be levied by troops of soldiers , the charge opened by mr. geoffrey palmer , names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply as to that article , to , &c. article xvi . read , charging him with putting forth a proclamation , commanding the nobility , &c. not to depart that kingdom without his licence , the article opened by mr. palmer , who proceeded to manage the evidence , names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply as to that article , to interlocutory passages after the reply , to article xix . read , charging him , that he did with his own authority , contrive and frame a new and universal oath against the scots in ireland , the article opened by mr. whitlock , the oath tendred to the scots , read , names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , and defence . to more interlocutory passages , to the oath tendred to some of the scotch nation refident in england , the reply to the earls defence , article xx. read , charging him with endeavouring to perswade , and provoke his majesty to an offensive war against his subjects of scotland , &c. article xxi . read , charging him with compelling his majesty to call a parliament in england , with design to break the same , and by force and power to raise money , article xxii . read charging him to have procured the parliament in ireland , to declare their assistance in a war against the scots , and to raise an army of foot , and horse , for the most part papists , tending to the subversion of the fundamental laws in england , article xxiii . read ; wherein he is changed with words , that his majesty having tryed the parliament , he was loose and absolved from all rules of government , and was to do every thing that power would admit . &c. article xxiv . read , charging him , that he declared that the parliament had forsaken the king , in denying to supply him ; and that the king was not to suffer himself to be mastered by the frowardness of the people , names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply , as to that article , to article xxv . read , charging the earl , that the lord mayor and aldermen refusing to certify the names of such citizens as were able to lend money , he said they deserved to be put to fine and ransome , and some of the alderm . hanged up , the charge opened by mr. maynard , names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply as to that article to article xxvi . read , charging him , that he did approve of two wicked projects , to seize upon the bullion and money in the mint . and embase his majestys coyn with a mixture of brass , &c. the charge opened by mr. maynard , names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply , to &c. article xxvii . read , wherein the earl is charged , that he did by his own authority , impose a tax on his majestys subjects for the payment of the soldiers , and caused the same to be levied by force , the article opened by mr. maynard the petition of the gentry of york read , as evidence , names of witnesses , their evidence , exceptions taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply , as to that article , to more passages interlocutory to attainder , see act and bill . bill brought in for continuance of the parliament , bill of attainder , and bill for continuance of the present parliament , passed the lords house , bill to be drawn up for the pressing of mariners , a. bishop of canterbury settles an inviolable friendship with the earl , the bishops decline giving their suffrages in matters criminal , bishops enabled in ecclesiastical affairs , by warrant from the earl of strafford , see art. . bishops , iudges , &c. sent for to attend the king at whitehall , the day before his majesty consented to pass the bill of attainder , bullion in the mint to be seized , see art. . c. closets placed in westminster-hall , whither the king , queen , and prince retired , commissioners of scotland to bring in their proofs against the earl , commissions granted to the earl of worcester and his son , for levying of horses , to be drawn into the charge against the earl of strafford , committee appointed to be present at the private examination of witnesses , committee touching the examination of members named , , , a select committee of both houses , appointed to meet at a conference concerning the trial of the earl , commons house approves of the petition delivered by certain peers to the king at york , for the calling of a parliament , right of the commons in the proceedings in the lords house , in cases of impeachment , to be considered of by a committee , the commons to meet only as a committee of the whole house at the trial of the earl ; and in the house constantly at two of the clock in the afternoon , during the time of trial , names of the members of the house of commons , who are desired to be present as witnesses at the trial of the earl , conference , that all the ports in ireland be open , . conference about sending for sir george ratcliffe , a member of parliament in ireland , conference about disbanding the new levied irish army . conference to sequester the earl from his offices , conference as to place of trial , as to the persons present , as to conncil and management of the evidence , to conference is desired with the lords , to know to what purpose the earls council should be heard , council of the earl , concerning matters of law , to be to morrow heard in westminster-hall , in criminal matters the bishops decline giving their suffrages , . interlocutory passages , about admitting sir pierce crosby to be examined , customs farmed for the earls use , see art. . d. lord digby goes up to the lords to desire a free conference concerning articles against the earl , his speech to the house of commons to the bill of attainder , sir kenelm digby to be removed from court lord dillon's case of ireland , to be reported by the committee e. lord viscount ely his case in ireland to be reported by the committee , the evidence against the earl , to be managed by a committee of the house of commons , evidence offered by the house to the committee , to corroborate the latter part of the article , evidence for the earl to be recollected by him to morrow , which done , the managers are to state their evidence , examinations taken before the lords , to be delivered to the commons appointed to draw up the charge against the earl , examination of the lord primate of ireland debated , exceptions by the earl , and other unnecessary delays , to be prevented , exceptions taken by some members to the lord digby's speech , f. fine and ransome to be put upon those who refuse to lend money , see art. . flax , a great quantity thereof in the earl of straffords hands , &c. see art. . forces made use of to levy money , see art. . forces in wiltshire , hampshire , kent and sussex , be drawn towards portsmouth and dover , g. mr. glyn's reply , to gondamore , an agent from spain , a sower of seeds of distraction among us , col. goring his examination , his vindication by vote of the house , h. earl of holland general of the army , lord hollis his speech to the lords , to promote the taking a protestation , hubub in the city , that the house was beset , and in danger , i. impeachment against the earl read , he is declared an incendiary of the war with scotland , see art. . the introductive speech of mr. pym , as to the preamble of the earls answer . to petitions and complaints from ireland there reported by mr. whistler , irish affairs to be considered of by a committee of the whole house , irish remonstrance reported by mr. whistler , irish remonstrance read , , , new levied irish army , a conference about disbanding them , , irish army consented by the king to be disbanded , irish army , words spoken , &c. tending to the bringing the same into england , , e. earl of kildare his case of ireland , to be reported , the king declares the ports in ireland to be open , . king , queen , and prince come to their private closets , placed in westminster-hall during the trial , king 's little finger heavier than the loins of the law , see art. . king's letter on behalf of the earl , sir robert king , a member of parliament in ireland , sent for as a witness against the earl , . l. letter to sir jacob ashley , and sir john conyers , to prevent a design to engage the army against the parliament , letter from the king , to moderate the severity of the law against the earl , letter from the earl to his secretary slingsby before his death , loftus , lord chancellor , made a close prisoner , see art. . twelve lords send to his majesty , to shew favour to his innocent children , m. mariners , a bill to be drawn to enable the pressing of them , members of parliament in ireland sent for by the commons , , , . a committee , touching the examination of members of both houses named , , , members make a protestation of secresie , four members , viz. mr. selden , palmer , maynard , and whitlock , added to the committee for the earl , who made their protestation of secresie , members appointed to view the place of trials , members desired by the earls petition , to be heard as witnesses , some members of the lords house desired by the commons to be made use of as witnesses , members names of the house of commons , whom the house desires to be present at the trial as witnesses , message from the lords for a conference by a committee of thirty of their house , with a proportionable number of this house , touching the examination of members , &c. message to the lords about disbanding the new levied irish army , message to the lords , to appoint a day for the earl to conclude his trial ; both houses agree , that if the earl come not to morrow , the house of commons may sum up their evidence and conclude , message to acquaint the lords , that the proceedings by bill , stand in no way of opposition to what hath been already done , moneys without parliament to be raised by force , see art. . monopoly made of tobacco , see art. . sir walter montague , sir toby mathews &c. to be removed from court , lord montnorris his case of ireland , to be reported by the committee . montnorris sentence of death pronounced against him , see art. . sentence read , concerning his being put out of possession of his freehold , see art. . multitudes of people assembled in westminster , petition from them , desiring iustice against the earl , communicated to the commons , ibid. they depart upon the lords taking the protestation . n. lysimachus nicanor , his scandalous pamphlet printed , earl of northumberland made general of the royal army in england , upon whose sickness , the earl of strafford was made lieutenant-general , anno . earl of northumberland communicates mr. percies letter to the peers , earl of northumberland lord high admiral of england , o. oath contrived against the scots in ireland , see art. . the like to the scots in england , offensive war against the scots , urged by the earl , see art. . a troop of reformed officers to be disbanded , officers , &c. warrant to them , see art. . p. paper posted up at sir william brunkards house in the old palace-yard , declaring the names of many persons to be enemies of iustice , parliament in ireland declare against the scots , see art. . people assemble in multitudes at westminster , petitions , orders , and books of entries of impositions , &c. sent for out of ireland , petitions and complaints of proceedings in ireland reported , petition of the parliament of ireland to the king , read petition of the earl , to examine some members of this house , read two petitions of the citizens of london , read , one of them concerning grievances inserted , petition from a multitude of people at westminster , desiring iustice against the earl , communicated to the commons a discovery in the petition of soldiers , to be brought into the tower , ibid. father philips's letter to mr. walter montague read , he is called to the bar , and is impeached , mr. piercy's letter concerning the plot , to mr , piercy , and sir john suckling voted to be guilty of high treason , plot discovered in england , upon which the house resolves on a protestation , ibid. preamble thereunto , ibid. the protestation read , names of the protestors , to the plot still suspected to be carried on , ports in ireland to be open , barrels of powder gone to portsmouth to be stayed , lord primate of ireland his examination debated , proceedings by way of bill , no way in opposition to what hath been already done , proclamation to issue out against sir george ratcliffe , if he appear not at the day limited , proclamation by the earl , commanding the nobility to reside in ireland , see art. . . protestation of secresie taken by the members the same taken by the four members added to the committee for the earl , protestation of the lords , denying that they did approve of the earls raising money in yorkshire , , protestation resolved on by the house , upon the discovery of the plot in england , carried up to the lords , to take the same , mr. hollis's speech to the lords , to promote the taking thereof , the protestation taken by the lords , and the multitude depart , ibid. q. the queen came to her private closet in westminster-hall , during the trial , queen-mother apprehending her self in danger of the multitude , mr. martyn moved the house that she may depart the kingdom , r. lord ranelaghs , debate about his examination , not to be examined , sir george ratcliffe not to speak with , or write to the earl of strafford , a proclamation to issue out against him , if he appear not at the day limited , articles of high-treason voted against him , records of attainder , a committee appointed to search those cases in the kings-bench , reformado-officers to be disbanded remonstrance of ireland reported by mr. whistler , remonstrance of the house of commons in ireland read , , , , . no replication to be put in to the earls answer , strafford . a committee of irish affairs , of the whole house designed in order to his accusation . he is in a great dilemma in the north his intended impeachment of some members disappointed , ibid. he is accused of high-treason ; sequestred from the parliament , and committed to the black rod , ibid. examination of witnesses to be taken , previous to his tryal in the presence of some of the commons , records of attainder in the kings bench to be search'd , in order to a bill of attainder , irish remonstrance reported , which reflected on his proceedings in ireland , and petitions , orders , and books of proceedings upon paper-petitions , and of entries relating to the custom-house in ireland sent for , , articles , in maintainance of the accusation of the said earl , , free conference concerning the said articles , a select committee agreed upon for the examination of witnesses concerning him , members of both houses to be examined concerning him , , , parliament of ireland , their petition to the king against him , sir george ratcliffe not to speak with him , scotch commissioners to bring in their charge , and proofs against him , see the charge conference to sequester him from his offices , debate about admitting him council at his trial , his answer read , containing sheets of paper , abstract of his answer to the articles , unto the evidence against him to be managed by a committee of the house of commons , no replication to be put in unto his answer , ibid. the commons aver the charge against him , and will manage the evidence by members of their own ; the names of the members to that purpose appointed , a committee of of the commons , appointed to meet a committee of of the lords , at a free conference concerning his tryal , conference as to place of tryal , persons present , council , and management of evidence against him , unto protestation entred in the lords house , denying that they did approve of his raising money in yorkshire , , resolved that the commons be present , as a committee of the whole house , at his tryal , &c. some members appointed to view the place for his trial , his petition to examine some members of this house read , the manner of his coming to his tryal in westminster-hall , the manner of bringing him into the hall , the ax not being suffered to be carried before him till after tryal , suffrages in matters criminal declined to be given by the bishops , entring their protestation , &c , the house to meet at two in the afternoon , constantly during the tryal his exceptions , and frequent adjournment of the lords house , occasioned thereby , with other unnecessary delays reported , how to prevent the same , a peremptory day to be appointed for him to conclude his tryal , both houses agree , that if the earl come not to morrow , the commons may sum up their evidence , and conclude , . resolved by the lords , that to morrow be recollect his evidence , which being done , the managers are to state theirs , the act of attainder read a second time , and referred to a committee of the whole house . ibid. the council appointed by the lords to be here to morrow morning , concerning matter of law , resolved , that it is sufficiently proved that he hath endeavoured to subvert the antient and fundamental laws of the realms of england , scotland , and ireland , and to introduce arbitrary and tyrannical government against law , lord high steward , his speech unto him the first day of tryal , the impeachment against him read , the-speech introductive of mr. pym , concerning the preamble to his answer , lord digby's speech to the bill of attainder , names of witnesses , their evidence , exception taken , interlocutory passages , defence and reply , , &c. sentence against the lord montnorris read , some interlocutory passages and speeches in the petition of right made by him in parliament ; much notice thereof being taken by the court , his confinement in kent for refusing lone-money , complained of at court , for frequenting archbishop abbots table with sir dudly digs , &c. sentence against the lord montnorris read , earl of straffords summary account of his evidence , to the speech of mr. pym thereupon , , to mr. glyn's reply , to the earls summary of his evidenee , to king's speech in favour of the earl , the earls letter to him , to set his majesties conscience at liberty , concerning an endeavour for the earl to escape out of the tower , sir john suckling voted guilty of treason , the earl brought to the scaffold , his speech then , copy of the paper , containing the heads of his last speech , written with his own hand , and left on the scaffold , he desires before he dies , to speak with the archbishop of canterbury , but refused , he sees the archbishop the next morning at his window , as he was going to the scaffold , and desires his blessing , he went to the scaffold more like a general at the head of an army , after obtaining conquest in battel , than like a man going to execution by death , his instructions to his son in writing , ibid. a description of his person , and an account of the noble relations to his family , a brief account of his secretary mr. slingsby ; and of his death , by having his legs cut off above the knees , his letter to his secretary before his death , the king's reflections upon the earls death , t. tax imposed on the subjects , see art. , tobacco made a monopoly , see art. . westminster-hall the place of tryal , appointed to be viewed by members , the fitness thereof reported by sir john culpeper , ibid. the first day of tryal , march . . , , &c. the manner of his coming to tryal , u ulster the place of rendezvous for the irish army in fight of scotland , ungirding of the scotch army , w sir christopher wandesford , made lord deputy of ireland , by the earl , warrant given to officers of the ecclesiastical courts to attach and commit persons , see art. . warrant produced , . sir richard weston , lord treasurer , first courted the earl after the dissolution of the parliament , car. . sir iohn winter to be removed from court , some lords desired to be made use of as witnesses , earl of worcester and his sons commission for levying of forces , to be drawn into the charge of the earl of strafford , words spoken , tending to the bringing of the irish army into england , , words wherewith the earl was charged in several articles of impeachment , see art. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e see historical collections the first part. pa. . notes for div a -e resolved to accuse the e. of strafford of high treason . report of the message of high treason . message of sequestration of e. of strafford . the lord keeper to the e. of strafford . message from the lords . conference , that ports of ireland shall be open . committee how to send for sir george ratcliff . mr. speaker to sit at the grand committee for irish affairs . irish affairs . committee concerning the earl of strafford . resolutions thereupon . sir robert king to be sent for . expedition . mr. treasurer reports the message from the king. no member to visit the earl of strafford without leave . message to the lords for a committee to examine witnesses . approbation of the lords petitioners for a parliament . petition to be entred . speedy examinations against the earl of strafford by members of both houses . committee to search attainders . report irish remonstrance . book of petitions sent for over . warrants for taxes upon tobacco . entries of impositions . articles against the earl of strafford . articles to be engrossed . conference concerning the earl of strafford's articles . articles ingrossed . mr. pym gets leave to speak . mr. pym reports the conference . thank 's to mr. pym. message for a conference . answer . mr. whistler's report from the committee for irish affairs . a committee to meet a committee of the house of lords about the examination of witnesses , in the case of the e. of strafford . petition from the parliament in ireland read . sir george ratcliff not to speak with , or write to the e. of strafford . a troop of reformado officers in the army to be disbanded . a message for a conference for some of the members to be present at the examination of witnesses . mr. pym's report . a message by the commons . sir george ratcliff to come in by a day . a report of the conference for the lords members to be examined . another message concerning members to be present at the examination . a protestation of secrefie . articles against sir george ratcliff . a message . ratcliff . irish army . petitions referred to the sub-committee . depositions concerning the earl of strafford . a message concerning examinations . the further impeachment of the earl of strafford . sequestration of thomas earl of strafford . to open letters . concerning council for the earl of strafford . the little finger of the law ireland a conquered nation lawyers not to dispute the orders of the council-board , in the earl of cork's case . lord mountnorris sentenced to suffer death by martial law. the lord mountnorris put out of possession . lord dillon his patent questioned . the lord loftus close prisoner , not delivering the great seal . the earl of kildare committed . committee to consider of the proof . members to manage the evidence . no replication to the earl's answer . concerning the manner of the trial of the earl. concerning the place of trial , and the council for the earl. the time of the trial. concerning the place for the trial. members appointed to view the place of trial. e of strafford's petition read . the great hall in westminster appointed for the trial of thomas earl of strafford . menday . ( afternoon . ) ( afternoon . ) the petition of divers citizens of london to both houses of parliament , wherein is an accompt of their grievances , together with their desires for justice to be executed upon the e. of strafford , and other delinquents . a memorial of the member that first took the names . notes for div a -e the prisoner at the barr. lord high steward . lord high steward . e. of strafford . lord high steward . lord high steward . mr. pym. lord high steward . mr. pym. e. of strafford . lord high steward . mr. pym. lord high steward . e. of strafford . mr. maynard . lord high steward . mr. pym. mr. maynard . lord fligh steward . mr. pym. sir io. clotworthy , a witness . the question . sir io. clotworthy . lord ranulagh a witness . e. of strafford . lo. ranulagh . l. mountnorris a witness . nicholas barnewell a witness . e. of strafford . mr. pym. mr. egor a witness . e. of strafford . mr. glyn. e. of strafford . mr. glyn. remonstrance . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . mr. glyn. e. of strafford . mr. glyn. remonstrance . manager . witness . e. of strafford . manager . lord high steward . witness . witness . e. of strafford . manager . witness . e of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . witness . manager . witness . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . lord high steward . e. of straffords speech . lord high steward . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . witness . kings warrant read . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . billetting of soldiers in dublin . increase of shipping . jurors sentence in the star-chamber . manager . lord high steward . mr. maynard manager . article . manager . manager . witness . witness . witness . witness . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . lord high steward . manager . f. thorpe a witness . manager . witness . e. of strafford . manager . lord high steward . e. of strafford . lord high steward . manager . f. thorpe a witness . george hawes a witness . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . e. of straffords defence . manager . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . the managers reply . article . manager . witness . sir tho. leyton a witness . lord high steward . tho. harrison a witness . e. of straffords defence . witness . e. of strafford . manager . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . lord steward . managers relpy . e. of strafford . manager . lord high steward . sir david fowles a witness . e. of strafford . manager . article . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e of strafford . e of strafford . manager . robert kennyday a witness . e. of strafford . manager . lord corke a witness . manager . lord gorminstone a witness . lord killmallock a witness . sir pierce crosby a witness . e. of strafford . mr. slingsby a witness . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . manager . manager . e. of strafford . managers relpy . managers reply . mr. fitzgarret a witness . e. of strafford . lord gorminstone a witness . lord killmallock a witness . manager . article . manager . lord ranulagh a witness . e. of strafford . witness . e. of stafford . e. of corke witness . iohn waldron a witness . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of castlehaven a witness . manager . lord high steward . roger lotts a witness . manager . e. of strafford . article . manager . manager . lord mountnorris a witness . witness . witness . witness . lord dillom a witness . lord ranulagh a witness . manager . earl of cork a witness . william castigatt a witness . lord dillon a witness . patrick gough a witness . lord conway a witness . e. of strafford's defence . manager . e. of strafford . lord willmott a witness . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . sir robert farrer a witness . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . manager . manager . manager . earl of ely a witness . manager . manager . manager . article . manager . thomas little a witness . e. of strafford . lord mountnorris a witness . mr. anslow a witness . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . manager . e. of corke a witness . lord ranulagh a witness . s. adam loftus a witness . lord mountnorris a witness . earl of bath a witness . e. of strafford . manager . manager . mr. anslowe a witness . william brettergh a witness . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of straffords defence . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . article . manager . manager . e. of strafford . manager . manager . mr. hoy a witness . thomas hibbots a witness . lord mountnorris a witness . earl of cork a witness . manager . manager . manager . lord corke a witness . lord primate a witness . lord renula a witness . manager . lord renula a witness . e. of strafford . lord dillon a witness . sir philip manwareing a witness . the managers reply . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . article . sir ia. montgomery a witness . manager . e. of strafford . manager . e. of strafford . manager . article . lord ranulagh a witness . sir iames hey a witness . robert goodwyn a witness . henry brawd a witness . robert cogan a witness . iohn welsh a witness . lord renula a witness . patrick allen a witness . e. of straffords defence . lord cottington a witness . e. of strafford . lord cottington a witness . e. of strafford . lord cottington a witness . sir arthur ingram a witness . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . lord dillon a witness . e. of strafford . mr. maynard's reply . article xii . charge . mr. maynard . proclamation . proclamation . mr. maynard . mr. crosby . witness . mr. maynard . mr. allen. winness . mr. welsh . witness . mr. gough . witness . patrick gough . witness . e. of strafford . mr. maynard . mr. glyn. mr. blunkett . witness . e. of strafford . mr. glyn. mr. crosby . mr. maynard . mr. maynard . mr. gibson . mr. slings by . e. of strafford . lord robert dillon . e. of strafford . mr. gibson . mr. maynard mr. gibson . article xiii . charge . benjamin croky , witness . sir iohn clotworthy witness . e. of strafford . l. rainalaugh . sir iohn clotworthy witness . l. rainalaugh witness . mr. gough , witness . mr. firzgarret witness . mr. maynard . mr. maynard . mr. glyn. article xv. charge . mr. palmer . mr. savill , witness . mr. glyn. mr. savill . mr. palmer . mr. savill . mr. maynard . l. strafford . mr. palmer . mr. pym. mr. savill witness . mr. palmer . l. steward . mr. palmer . mr. savill . gough witness . richard welsh witness . patrick cleare . witness . nicholas ardah witness . berne . witness . mr. palmer . mr. maynard . mr. kennedy . mr. palmer . mr. little witness . mr. palmer . mr. maynard . lord strafford lord rana . laugh . mr. palmer , mr. palmer . e. of strafford defence . lord dillon . mr. palmer . e. of strafford . lord dillon . tyrringham . conley , witness . henry dillon . tyrringham . ranailaugh . strafford . palmer . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . mr. palmer . mr. pym. mr. palmer . e. of strafford . ardah witness . savill , witness . dillon . witness . e. of strafford . mr. palmer . reply . sir arthur tyrringham . article xvi charge . iohn loftus witness . wade witness . lorky witness . richard wade witness . mr. palmer . lord roche witness . e. of strafford . nash witness parry witness e. of strafford mr. palmer , afterwards his majesties attorney-general . linch witness . fitz-gerard witness . mr. palmer . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . mr. riley , witness . mr. maynard . mr. ralton . e. of strafford . mr. gibson . dillon wit. ness . mr. maynard mr. maynard . e. of strafford . mr. wether inge . ralton . e. of strafford . slingsby witness . little witness . e. of strafford mr. palmers reply . mr. palmer . torky witness . e. of strafford . e. of strafford . richard wade witness . patrick gough witness . mr. glyn. article xix charge . mr. maynard . mr. maxwel . mr. whitlock . sir iohn clotworthy witness . mr. whitlock . mr. salmon , witness . iohn loftus witness . mr. whitlock . defence . e. of strafford . robert lord dillon witness manwaring . sir adam loftus witness . maynard . whitlock . e. of strafford . mr. slingsby witness . trueman witness . little , witness . ralton . sir philip manwaring witness . robert lord dillon witness . sir adam loftus witness . sir philip manwaring . witness . whitlock's . reply . mr. whitlock . mr. maynard . stroud . e. of strafford . stroud . e. of strafford . article xx. charge . article xxi . charge . article xxii charge . artic. xxiii charge . art. xxiv . charge . l. high steward . whitlock . e. of strafford . whitlock . maynard . l. h. steward . mr. whitlock . e. of strafford . mr. maynard . e. of strafford . mr. whitlock . mr. glyn. e. of strafford . mr. whitlock . e. of traquair mr. whitlock . e. of traquair . mr. palmer . mr. maynard . e. of strafford . e. of traquair . e. of strafford . l. digby . mr. glyn. e. of strafford mr. glyn. e. of traquair . mr. whitlock . e. of strafford . mr. whitlock . e. of strafford . mr. whitlock . mr. glyn. e. of strafford . mr. whitlock . e. of strafford . l. h. steward . e. of morton . mr. whitlock . mr. whitlock . e. of traquair . witness . mr. glyn. mr. whitlock . sir henry vane witness . mr. whitlock . e. of strafford . mr. whitlock . e. of northumberland . witness . bish. of london witness . mr. barnewell witness . mr. whitlock . archbishop of armagh witness . l. conway witness . sir henry vane witness . mr. whitlock . sir ro. king. witness . l. ranalaugh witness . l. ranalaugh witness . mr. whitlock . mr. maynard . sir thomas barrington witness . king witness ranalaugh witness . mr. whitlock . sir tho. german , witness - e. of bristol witness . e. of holland witness . mr. whitlock . sir henry vane witness . mr. whitlock . e. of clare . l. h. steward . mr. maynard . mr. whitlock . e. of strafford . mr. glyn. e. of strafford . slingsby , witness . e. of strafford . marquis hamilton witness . mr. slingsby , witness . sir george wentworth . mr. maynard . e. of strafford . l. treasurer witness . mr. maynard . l. treasurer witness . l. cottington . mr. maynard l. cottington . mr. maynard . l. cottington . marq. hamilton , witness . e. of strafford . m. hamilton . l. goring witness . mr. german , witness . mr. glyn. l. treasurer . l. cottington . e. of strafford mr. whitlock's reply . l. conway . mr. maynard . mr. maynard . mr. glynn . l. cottington . mr. glynn . mr. pym. artic. xxv . charge . mr. maynard . l. treasurer . tho. wiseman witness . tho. wiseman , witness . e. of berkshire . garaway , lord mayor of london . e. of strafford . garaway . defence of the e. of strafford . mr. glyn. art. xxvi . charge . robert edwards , witness . palmer witness . mr. maynard . mr. maynard . mr. henley , witness . e. of straffords defence . i. cottington witness . mr. maynard . mr. maynards reply . mr. whitlock . mr. strowd . garaway witness . mr. glyn. mr. strowde . art. xxvii . charge . mr. maynard . sir hugh cholmeley witness . sir henry cholmley witness . hotham witness . stapleton witness , l. wharton witness . pennyman 〈◊〉 mr. maynard . griffin , witness . lord clare . mr. glyn. mr. strickland , witness . burroughes witness . cholmeley witness . dowsen , witness . pierson witness . ingram , witness . griffin , witness . cholmley , witness . mr. maynard e. of straffords defence . neale . witness . osborne , witness . mr. maynard . pennyman . witness . e. of strafford l. wharton . l. wharton . pennyman witness . mr. maynard . mr. glynn . mr. maynard . e. strafford . pennyman witness . savill witness . pennyman witness . osborne witness . savill witness . rhodes witness . danby witness mr. maynard . wentworth , witness . e. of strafford strickland , witness . edw. osborne . wil. pennyman , e. of strafford . mr. maynard . cholmeley witness . e. of strafford . mr. glyn. mr. whitlock . e. of strafford . mr. whitlock . mr. maynard . mr. glyn. mr. maynard . mr. glyn. object . answ. object . answ. owen ' s case of sandwich in kent . the house of commons adjourned upon this speech of the kings , in some dissatisfaction . may the . the commons having a plot discovered , fall into the debate thereof . and the same day resolve upon a protestation . the preamble to the protestation . the commons send a message to the lords , concerning the plot. and desire a select committee to take examinations upon oath . and that no servant of the king or queens majesty , departs the kingdom till they be examined . and sent a letter to the army , to assure them of the parliaments care of them . the commons past several resolves . these resolves and the protestation commuicated to the lords . mr. hollis his speech in a message to the lords about the plot. multitudes of people flock to westminster crying iustice , iustice , &c. the people assemble again in multitudes , which the lords communicate to the commons at a conference . and communicates the petition of the multitude , as followeth . desiring justice and execution upon the earl of strafford . to be secured against plots . and against a garrison newly put into the tower. to make way forth earl of straffords escape . the lords send six peers to the tower , to inquire of this business . the lieutenant said , he had his majesties command to receive men the lords at the conference declared , that the tumults hindred their proceeding upon the bill of attainder . the lords took the protestation . and the multitudes departed . a bill for the continuance of the present parliament , twice read . the earl of straffords letter to the king. a great hubbub in the city . conspirators fled . the queen desigas to goe to portsmouth . proclamation to call in the conspirators . a letter to prevent the design to engage the army against the parliament . sent to sir iacob ashly , and sir iohn conyers . the plot consisted of thre heads . capt. bilingsly his examination , that he had orders to get men into the tower . the earl expostulates about his escape . examination of three witnesses more , as as to the earls escape . col : gorings examination about the plot. mr. peircy his better against the plot. father philips his letter against the parliament . earl of holland general of the army . father philips to be sent for . he appears several votes against ar. peircy about the plot. barkley and o-neal are fled . mr. peircy charged with high treason . a vote to vindicate col. goring . bill of attainder , and for continuance of the parliament , passed message to the lords to move the king for his consent to pass the bill of attainder . to press mariners . the king , judges , and bishops consult about strafford . the king gives warrant for a commission to give his assent to the bill for execution of the earl of strafford . the royal assent given this day , and the bill passed . the king consents that the irish army should be instantly disbanded . thanks returned to his majesty . the earl of strafford's petition to the house of peers . the bill of attainder . * this proviso hath occasioned the common discourse and opinion that this judgment against the earl was enacted never to be drawn into president . the kings letter on behalf of the earl of strafford . twelve lords sent to the king. queenmother the earl of strafford brought to the scaffold . his speech . his majestys propositions tothe house of commons touching supply . see page in the first part of historical collections . the charge of the scotch commissioners presented to the parliament . the description of his person and family . mr. slingsby's interment . his extraction and education . the true narrative of the procedings [sic] at the sessions-house in the old-bayly. or the trial and condemnation of six notorious popish priests & jesuites, for high-treason viz. william russel, alias napper, james corker, lionel anderson, alias, munson, charles parry, and alexander lunsden. at a commission of oyer and terminer there held, on saturday the th of this instant january . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t ab estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the true narrative of the procedings [sic] at the sessions-house in the old-bayly. or the trial and condemnation of six notorious popish priests & jesuites, for high-treason viz. william russel, alias napper, james corker, lionel anderson, alias, munson, charles parry, and alexander lunsden. at a commission of oyer and terminer there held, on saturday the th of this instant january . england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) p. [s.n.], london : printed in the year, [ ] the year is given according to lady day dating. titus oates is cited as witness. reproduction of the original in the guildhall library, london. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng oates, titus, - -- early works to . trials -- england -- early works to . crime -- england -- early works to . criminals -- england -- early works to . popish plot, -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the true narrative of the procedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly . or the trial and condemnation of six notorious popish priests & iesuites , for high-treason , viz. william russel , alias napper , james corker , lionel anderson , alias . munson , charles parry , and alexander lunsden , at a commission of oyer and terminer there held , on saturday the th of this instant january . london printed in the year , . the trial and condemnation of the six notorious traitors . the kings witnesses attending on the court there were eight romish priests and jesuites brought to the barr , to receive their trials upon the account of high-treason , viz. joseph kemish , william russel , alias , napper , henry starkie , william marshal , james corker , lionel anderson , alias , munson , charles parry , and alexander lunsden ; but the evidence not being prepared for the trial of the former , viz. kemish , he was reserved till another time ; but against the other seven they proceeded as followeth , according to their indictments , that they being priests and english-born , after having received orders from the see of rome , came over and remained in england , the which by a statute of the th of queen elizabeth is made high treason , mr. attorny-general and the kings council laid open the cause to the jury and evidence , and the jury being charg'd with them , according to law , lionel anderson was first brought to the barr , where dr. oats , mr. bedlo , mr. dangerfield , mr. prance , and mr. dugdale were sworn for the king , mr. dangerfield first standing up , did give a fair and large account , that the prisoner was a priest in orders . and that he had not only confessed him , but had given him the sacrament , and in his priestly vestments celebrated mass ; not only at wild-house , but also at several other places , and that after he had confessed the witness , he bid him go and be drunk with such a gentleman , for it was for the good and propagation of the romish cause , that he was a priest likewise dr. oates did affirm , and that he had at several times repeated mass and given the sacrament to his knowledge , with many other plain and possitive circumstances , to this he pleaded not guilty , with many horrible execrations . afterwards james corker was brought to the bar , his plea was that he had been once tryed with sr. george wakeman , and that he ought not twice to be put in danger of his life : but the court satisfied him in this point , whereas he before was tryed as a conspirator , that he now was tryed as a popish-priest , and then he pleaded not guilty , at which mr. attorny general laying open the indictment , the evidence were sworn , viz. dr. oates and mr. prance who likewise did against him as against the former , affirm that they had seen him cellebrate mass , give the sacrament , and in his priestly robes at somerset-house , and other places , and was to have been a bishop : but he absolutely denied that ever he had acquaintance with the witnesses , or scarcely seen them before his last arraignment , and in a jesuitical obstenancy , made many vows and execrations endeavouring to scandalize the evidence the next was william ma●shal who was likewise tryed before with corker , and did plead the same , and made a long oration in his own defence , courting the acts of parliaments and statutes made and to be put in force on that account , and did , to speak the truth , seem to be a learned and most proficient man , his place of executing of his priestly function , was for the most part in the savoy , where doctor oates affirmed that he had heard him more then twelve times say mass in . this he denied , and brought the woman that keept the house to testify that dr. oates was never there , but she bogling in her testimony did confound her evidence , saying that he might be there , but that she knew not she had seen him there , mr. prance and mr. bedlo did affirm him likewise to have taken orders , and that they had known him to have been a plotter , and a most notorious priest , as likewise upon the same indictments and statute of the th of queen elizabeth which makes it high-treason for any english born subjects to go and take orders at rome , and after come over into england , whereupon william russel alias napper henry starky , charles parry , and alexander lunsdel were brought to the barr , who pleaded not guilty , but the aforementioned evidence for the king , did so plainly make it appear , that they were not only priests , but had at several times administred according to their priestly function , the sacraments , and also confessed and absolved some of them , and that mr. prance had received chalices , oyl-pots , and several other trinkets belonging to the al●er , of them to mend , scour , and refine ; upon this plain evidence , six of them were by the jury brought in guilty of high-treason , and sentenced by the court to be drawn , hang'd and quarter'd , viz. russel , alias , napper , starky , marshal , corker , anderson , and parry , but lunsden being a scotchman-born , was not thought to come within the verge of the said act of parliament , and therefore reserved for a special verdict in that case . thus may we see , tho haughty rome does bend her frowns at this our english nation , nay and prompt our native subjects to conspire our downfall and immediate ruine . heaven stands most firmly on our side , and that pernicious snare that they had laid to catch the innocent , themselves have fallen in ; for sure it is , eternal vengeance will not sleep for ever , when such dire contrivances hatched in the dark shades of night ascend and pierce the blushing clouds , therefore let both tirant rome , and her thrice fatal emissaries now beware , least they incur the high displeasure of a dreadful god , and pull down most deserved ruine on their heads , whilst that they think to dare omnipotence , by their endeavouring to destroy such as are protected by his providence : finis . the triall of mr. john gibbons, in westminster-hall, before the high-court of justice, beginning july . gibbons, john, d. . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing t a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the triall of mr. john gibbons, in westminster-hall, before the high-court of justice, beginning july . gibbons, john, d. . p. [s.n.], london : printed in the year, . errata on a v. stained with some print show-through; cropped at head. reproduction of the original in the henry e. huntington library and art gallery. eng gibbons, john, d. -- early works to . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . a r (wing t a). civilwar no the triall of mr. john gibbons, in westminster-hall, before the high-court of justice, beginning july . . gibbons, john d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the triall of mr. john gibbons , in westminster-hall , before the high-court of justice , beginning july . . hab. . ver. . thou art of purer eyes then to behold evil , and canst not look on iniquity ; wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously , and holdest thy tongue , when the wicked deavoureth the man that is more righteous then he . eccles. . ver. . there is a just man that perisheth in his righteousnesse , and there is a wicked man that prolongeth his life in his wickednesse . london , printed in the year , . to the reader . he , who while he readeth , taketh notice that these notes being taken from the prisoner , in taking them from his notary , and that the copy of his charge , and of the deposition of the witnesses , and the help of a councell at law , which had been granted to others , ( which was frequently , and with all earnestnesse pleaded for , and pressed by him ) were flatly , and peremptorily denyed , shall rather wonder , that so much of their unjust and illegall proceedings hath come to light , then be offended that this narration ( collected out of his own seattered papers ) cometh abroad imperfect ; read therein the meeknesse , cheerfulnesse , and constancy of the innocent , condemned ; the malice , iniquity , and obstinacy of the cruel persecutors : bear with the defects in the relation , at least ; let them run upon that reckoning , who are accountable for his bloud : be ye followers of the faith , and patience of him who having endured the triall , hath received the crown of life , which the righteous lord hath promised to them that love him : beware of the wolves of the evening , that walk in sheeps clothing , not sparing the flock , and the lord of all grace , who hath called us unto his eternall glory by christ jesus , after ye have suffered , make ye perfect , establish , strengthen , settle you to him , be glory for ever and ever . amen . the triall of mr. john gibbons , &c. friday the first day . potter and he were both brought to the barre together . potters charge was first read , unto which he pleaded guilty , and made a large narrative of all his crimes against the state ; very much was he examined against master gibbons , but no hurt at all he did him : after they had done with him , the charge of master gibbons was read , which , when he heard , he spake in this manner . gibbons . my lord , this charge is very new to me , i have been a prisoner under close imprisonment for many weeks together , and never knew before this time what it was in particular that was laid to my charge : and now i doe hear my particular accusation , it is so strange to me , that i doe not know what to say to it at the first hearing ; therefore i humbly beseech your lordship that i may hear it read again . attorney generall . my lord , master gibbons heard potters charge read , which was very like to his own , so he hath heard it twice already ; however my lord , he may hear it read again , for he may hear it thrice . keeble . come let him read it again , he is a young man , let him have what favour he may have ; mark it well , now you hear it again . after reading , master gibbons spake in this manner : gibbons . my lord , i am brought hither by an order of this court , which order mentions a charge of treason exhibited against me ; i should betray the liberty i am born unto , if i should not desire a triall , according to the fundamentall laws of this nation , which is by a jury of my neighbour-hood ; the benefits and advantages are exceeding great , therefore i doe earnestly crave to have them . keeble . the state have thought of another way of triall , which you you must have , and submit to ; this is best for your advantage , and more honourable then any other you can have , therefore you must plead guilty or not guilty . gibbons . my lord , i shall never be so prodigall of my bloud , as to throw away my life , by refusing a triall before you , though i am not satisfied in this new way of triall ; yet i shall not refuse to plead in confidence of my own innocency , and in hope of your tendernesse in matters of bloud : but before i plead , and answer to my charge , i have this humble motion to make . here he spake very much on the first day of his triall , moving very much for councell ; but after he had used many arguments to perswade the court to incline to it , and could not have it , he desired the court to be the councell for him , and take care of his life , and not suffer him by his own ignorance , to weave a web for his own ruine and destruction . after much said of this nature , he pleaded not guilty ; the which being entred in the book , they proceeded to the triall . attorney general . the attorney generall began with a long speech , how master gibbons had plotted and contrived these treasons , named the meetings , and the places , where he said it began presently after the late kings death , under the pretence of getting the king to scotland ; but the truth was , they intended to settle him upon this common-wealth . and further , that he the said john gibbon as a false traitour , and out of a malitious and wicked purpose and designe to raise insurrections in this nation , did severall dayes and times in the years , , , and . and at divers other times and places within this common-wealth , together with chistopher love , piercy , jermin , massey , &c. and other their complices , being false traytours to this common-wealth , trayterously and malitiously complot , contrive , and endeavour to raise forces against this common-wealth , settled in way of a free state , without king , or house of lords , and for the subversion of the same did raise , and collect divers great summes of money , and did hold intelligence by letters , messages , and instructions with charles stuart , sonne of the late king , and with the queen his mother , and divers other persons , being false traitours to this common-wealth . and further , he the said john gibbons , together with christopher love , william drake , peircy , jermin , &c. and other their complices , since the death of the late king , severall dayes and times in the years aforesaid within this common-wealth of england , and elsewhere did traiterously and malitiously declare , publish , and promote charles stuart , son of the late king , commonly called the prince of wales , to be king of england , meaning of this common-wealth . and further , to carry on the said designe , he the said john gibbons severall days and times in the respective years afore-said , together with christopher love , william drake , peircy , &c. did endeavour to procure the scots to invade this common-wealth of england . and further , that he the said john gibbon , on the th of aprill , . and on divers other dayes and times between the th day of march , . and the first day of june . at london , and elsewhere , did give , use , and hold correspondence with the said charls stuart , son of the late king , and the queen his mother , jermin , peircy , &c. and further , to accomplish the said designes , he the said john gibbon , on the th day of aprill . at the places afore-mentioned , did hold , and give correspondence and intelligence , with divers persons of the scotish nation , as argyle , lowden , lo hian , &c. enemies to this common-wealth , and adhearing to the king in the warre against them . and further , the said john gibbons did traiterously , and malitiously abbet , assist , countenance and incourage the scotish nation , and divers other persons adhearing to them , and did convey great sums of money , armes and ammunition into scotland , and elsewhere : all which wicked practices and designes of him the said john gibbons were against this common-wealth , parliament , and people ; and in manifest contempt of the lawes of this nation , and acts of parliament : and in such cases made , and provided . after he had ended , the witnesses were called in ; the first was major adames , the second colonell barton , the third was captain hatsell , the fourth colonell baines , the fifth major alford , the sixth captain farre , the seventh was master jekell , the eighth was major huntington , the ninth master harvey , the tenth was major corbet : adames being first examined , his testimony was to this effect . adames testimony . that the correspondency of john gibbons , with the rest above-said , was to endeavour an agreement between the king , and the scots ; the first meeting was at the swan in fish-street , where master gibbons was ; at that place there was only a consideration how to carry on the correspond ncy . there was also a petition to be sent to the king , ( as i was informed ) and the meeting in this place , was in reference to that also . there was letters written to scotland , and some received thence , which mr. gibbons was privie to . after master drake went away , we met at master loves house , where master gibbons met also ; there were letters read , and i think master gibbon did hear them , and did confer about them : the letters sent to jermin , peircy ▪ &c. at one time or other master gibbons was present , and heard them read . this was before titus his going away . then after there were letters sent from the king , which were read at master loves house , where m ster gibbons was present , and heard them read ; master gibbons brought likewise a rough draught of the instructions that were to go to holland a so ▪ there was a letter read at master loves from alderman bunce , where master gibbons was present ▪ also a letter after dunbar f●ght from scotland , relating how affairs stood there , and that letter ( as i remembe● , was for armes and money ) was read at masterloves house , where master gibbons was present at the reading of it . master gibbons was a constant man at all meetings . a letter sent from massey read at m●ster loves for arm●s and money , m. gibbons was present , and three or four hundred pounds agreed to be sent . a letter was written to the estates of scotland , to procure massey , and the english to be in est●eme . master gibbons sometimes acquainted me where we were to meet . lieutenant col. baines test●mony . a little while after the death of the late king , there was a meeting at the swan at dowgate , where severall persons were ; but whether m. gibbons was there , i know not ; but captain titus was there , and gave a large commendation of the young prince , and moved that a petition might be drawn up , and sent to the prince from the presbyterian party here ; there was a debate upon it , and this designe was looked upon as the onely visible way to preserve the presbyterian party , and to bring the prince to the crown . colonell bartons testimony . a while after the death of the late king i was going into cannon-street , and at dowgate i met with will . drake , who desired me to meet him at the swan at dowgate ; when i came there , i found capt. titus , leiut. col. bains , and divers other persons , i believe m. gibbons was not there ; i came in while they were in discourse , and i could not well hear them ; but at their rising , i asked m. drake what was the occasion of their meeting , and he told me that capt. titus had given a good report of the prince , and did desire that some addresses might be made to him , that thereby he might be taken off from his cavaliering councellors . after a while william drake came to me for l ▪ which he said was to furnish a friend of his which did want an l . he desired i would not deny him , and because he was a good customer to my house , i did len● it him ; and after i heard it was for capt. titus . as for the prisoner , i think he was not at the swan at dowgate , for i did not know him till afterwards . major alfords testimony . at the meeting at the swan at dowgate , where divers were ; captain titus made a large narration of the princes deportment , declaring how inelineable he was to cast off his cavaliering adherents , if he were but assured there was a people in england that stuck to their covenant , he was weary of his other councels , and was ready to apply himself to the ends of the covenant . a petition was brought to the bear in bread-street , where it was read , and d●bated among us and agreed to be drawn up , and capt. titus and drake were sent away with it . i doe not remember that master gibbons was at either of these meetings . there was money raised for titus ; drake had l . of me , he had it in private ; capt. titus had l . for his journey : he went over twice ( i think ) and if so , the second time master gibbons was there ; the second time i saw master gibbons , he brought me to his chamber ; and the third time he and i went with some papers to gravesend , agreed on at master lov●s : these papers were either a commission , or instructions , or both together in one ; but this was the substance , that the lord willoughby , and others ▪ should go to the treaty at breda , and to presse the king concerning this agreement with scotland . master gibbons was at master loves house when the commission and instructions were agreed upon ; he and i went to gravesend , and ( i think ) he carried the papers : but of this i am sure , that he knew the end of our going ; we tarried there all night , and delivered the papers to m. mason . i did goe to callice , when i came back , but i doe not know whether the papers that i brought over ( being read at master loves house ) were read all at one time or not , if they were , then master gibbons was there . i was present when the letters came after dunbar fight at m. loves , the letters came from col. massey ; they gave an account of the fight there , and of the estate of affaires ; and withall , writ for money and armes to be sent by way of holland . i cannot say m. gibbons was present : there was money agreed upon there to be raised for massey and titus ; m. gibbons was many times at the swan at dowgate , he was constant at the club . but after m. drake fled , we did take in other men into the club ; m. gibbons was as little absent as any man . m. gibbons did put me upon it to shew friendship to m. mason , and he gave me this reason , that so m. mason might represent our good affections to the king ; and m. gibbons did desire me to defray the charges of that nights expences at gravesend , where m. mason was telling me , that if i were not allowed it by our friends , he would doe it . master harvey his testimony . i came to the knowledge of this designe at severall meetings and places ; m. gibbons told me of l . wch was to be sent into scotland , and that massey was to land forces in the west ; and concerning my lord generals souldiers , that many of them were run away ; and concerning the trained bands of the north , he said they waited but for one blow to be given in scotland ; he told me also of a town that was to be delivered . major huntingtons testimony . the first that made me acquainted with this designe was m. gibbons who told me , that if i would come to m. loves house , i should hear the newes ; i went to m. loves , and when i came there , that which i heard , was a paper sent from massey , graves , and titus , brought by drake , and read by him ; m. gibbons was there then , there was many more there in m. loves closet , but i cannot say well who they were . the testimonies of the rest of the witnesses could not be well heard , neither can they be had , the books being so close kept . after all was ended , m. keeble desired master gibbons to speak for himself . gib . my lord , i have now stood here neer hours , and am both spent in my body and spirit , and that i am as unable in body to speak for my self , as i am disabled to make my defence without the court grant me time ; a copie of my charge , the depositions of the witnesses , & assigne me councell . and therefore , before i plead , or answer to my charge , i have this humble motion to make ( i being a man altogether ignorant and unacquainted with the lawes ) that this court would be pleased , as i said before , to assigne me councell to advise me in my chamber , and to plead for me in the court : and that your lordship , and this court would be pleased to give me a copy of my charge , and to assigne me a solicitor to solicite my businesse for me . keeble . m. gibbons , you must proceed to make some generall defence for the present . gib . my lord , i hope you will doe as god use to doe , allow some grains of allowance , that a man that hath nothing but weaknesse , and ignorance , may help himself . upon this motion the court adjourn'd , and m. gibbons was taken away by the keeper of newgate , and thereafter came a warrant to bring him to the bar the wednesday following . the reply that m. att. made to gibbons appeal we cannot have . in the mean time there were severall friends that went to mediate , and speak for him to the judge , who did lay out his simplicity and innocency , labouring what they could for the saving of his life . the judge answered , that he was not so simple as he was set out by them , and that he doubted not but that he was a servant to greater persons , who had imployed him : but if he would be ingenious , and discover the parties that were in that designe , he would labour to save his life , and do him good ; but if he would not confesse , he could not help him . yet still they interceded for him , untill at last the judge told one of them , that verily he was perswaded that he was innocent ; but neverthelesse , if he did not reveal all those whom he knew to have any knowledge of the businesse besides himself , nothing could be expected but death : he was extream desirous to have a discovery of some persons of quality , but m. gibbons constantly affirmed he knew none , neither would he accuse any , for he had rather die , then be a means to scandall , or hazard any good man , this he constantly affirmed with an undaunted resolution to the last . wednesday the d dayes tryall , july . master gibbons being brought before the court , my lord keeble spake as followeth . keeble master gibbons , the court out of abundance of favour to you , have given you time from friday till now , whereby you may be able to make your defence ; therefore it is now expected you should proceed , and plead what you have to say . gib . my lord , the last time i was before this honourable court , after i had desired a jury , and was denyed it , i did in confidence of my own innocency , and your tendernesse in matters of bloud , submit to a triall , though i was no way satisfied in this new way of triall ; but before i could plead , i made this humble motion , perceiving the charge against me for high treason , was against severall statutes , lawes , and acts of parliament , which i never saw , heard , or read them in my life . my life and estate thus being drawn into question ( my lord ) it did very much concern me to be well advised , there being many things in the statutes which made for my advantage , both in my plea and defence ; therefore i did humbly beseech your lordship , and this high court , that i might have councell in law assigned me ▪ both to advise me in my chamber , and plead for me in this court , that so i might be able to take all those lawfull advantages which the statutes and acts of parliament afford me , which i was not able to doe my self , being ignorant of the lawes ; this being denied , and i seeing i could no way obtain councell to preserve my life , as i did see the state had got great councell against me to prosecute me for my life . i did humbly beseech your lordship , and this high court , that you would be so far of councell against me a poor prisoner standing at the bar , drawn in question before the justice for my life , that you would not let the learned councel of this common-wealth take any advantage against me through my ignorance , or want of skill in the laws : but that if the statutes and acts of parliament , and laws of the land did afford me any advantage , which i might over-slip through my ignorance , that your lordship and the court , out of your bowels of compassion to a poor prisoner , would stand for me , that i might not have any wrong done , nor law denied , which by right was due unto me ; upon these considerations my lord , i did plead not guilty : i do humbly thank your lordship , and the court for the time you have given me , but as unable to answer , or speak for my self now , as i was the last time , i took my leave of this court , being wholly unfurnished , and altogether dis-inabled to make my defence ; for when i came back to my prison at newgate , with an expectation of meeting both the copie of my charge , and the deposition of the witnesses , i found all was taken away from my notary , whom i brought a purpose to this place to help me therein ; seeing my self thus totally deprived , and cut off from all helps , and hopes of making my defence , i could not tell whither to goe or send but to your lordship , whom i thought , upon my humble petition , might have granted both a copy of my charge , and the depositions of the witnesses : but seeing that could not be granted , i am left without all possibilities of pleading , or making any defence : therefore i do now again with all humility addresse my self to your lordship , and this honourable court , and doe most earnestly desire a copie of the charge , also the depositions of witnesses and conncell assigned me to come to my chamber to advise me there : also councell to plead for me before this court , and a solicitor assigned me to follow my businesse ; and if god shall not incline your hearts to shew this mercy , i doe not look upon my self as able to make my defence , as to stand before a company of armed men . keeble . the court will be very tender of your bloud , and they must , and will be as tender to preserve the bloud of the common ▪ wealth , in execution of justice upon traitors that seek to destroy them ; you have had a great deal of favour and time given you , therefore now you must make your defence . gib . my lord , if ever prisoner that came before this court had reason to cry , and call for possible helps and advantages that may be allowed them , much more have i cause to doe the same , verily believing never untill now there was ever any brought before justice so unable to help , or answer for himself as i am ; therefore i humbly beseech your lordship , and this high court ; and i doe withall , earnestly desire councell , a copy of my charge , the depositions of the witnesses , without which i am neverable to plead , or make any defence for my life : and the rather am i invited to crave , and desire the same , for that i have both heard , and seen presidents before mine eyes of this nature . major rolf , that was accused for high treason , had councell assigned him , by whose assistance he saved his life . sir john gell , before this court of justice , had his brother , master gell , to speak for him ; and since , m. love had councell to plead for him in this very place . keeb. m. gibbons , you will not be denyed councell , or any thingelse that may help you , if there be found matter of law : goe on , and make your defence , and make it appear to the court that there is matter of law , and you shall not be denied councel , and what ever else may doe you good . gib . my lord , had i the severall advantages that others have had to offer such matters of law , i should be as ready as any else to doe it ; but being deprived of all these helpes by the officers of the court , who took away the book from my notary , after he had written the charge ; therefore my lord , without a copy of the charge , and the depositions of the witnesses , it will be in vain for me to trouble this honourable court , when i never had fight of the charge , nor depositions of the witnesses ; the want of which have so dis-inabled me , ( seeing i could not have help of councell to advise me ) that i cannot tell what in the world to say my self . keeb. m. gibbons , you must proceed to plead , or else you will incense the court more then you are aware of , for you to stand out thus , and plead for that which cannot be granted , will doe you no good ; therefore i advise you no longer to stand out , but make your defence . gib . my lord , if i should begin to proceed , and make my defence , being ( as i said already ) totally ignorant in all the lawes , and utterly unable both in memory and parts to take all just and clear objections against the advantages of the charge , and evidences ; if i should make my defence when all means are thus taken away , i should certainly throw away my own life , and become guilty of shedding my own bloud ; therefore i had rather a times leave my self to the mercy and justice of the court , who , i hope , are very sensible how much the life of a man is worth , and withall , consider the hard measure i had , in taking away the books of those that wrote for me , that so i could never have sight of the charge , nor depositions of the witnesses , which all others have had , nor no councels to advise me . thus being left naked , and destitute of all helps , i had rather submit to the mercy of the court , then ever plead to save my life : my lord , i am perswaded , i stand to be judged by a court where i see the faces of those that truly fear god , and that they will seriously weigh and consider that the bloud of any , for whom christ hath died , is exceeding precious in the sight of god , who will not take any advantage against any for their ignorance , and that you also doe remember that all your judgements will be judged over again at the tribunall of christ , who will both be a councell and advocate for me a prisoner now standing at the bar : thus hoping that you will reckon the life and bloud of the meanest person , for whom christ hath died , as much worth as the life of the greatest . i will rather submit to your mercy , then plead , if i cannot have , what i doe desire : but being very unwilling to have any hand to destroy my self , and so become guilty of my own death ; therefore , though for want of help i be not able to make my defence , yet i shall make an appeal to the court , which is all i can doe ; and therefore desire you seriously to weigh and consider how far short the evidences come , and how full of contrarieties and contradictions ; by the law there ought to be two lawfull and sufficient witnesses to make a man guilty of treason ; these witnesses must agree punctually in their testimony , and the treason they prove must be against the expresse words of the act : also the law will not suffer those that are guilty and convict of the same crime , by their own confessions , whereof they accuse me , to give evidence against me ; these witnesses therefore cannot be lawful and sufficient against me , they having confessed thus much against themselves , and so do either witnesse against me out of fear of death , or promise of reward : this i am certainly inform'd will be proved against major adams , and was declared in the face of the court at m. loves triall concerning the testimony of major adams , which is the most materiall witnesse against me : i hope your lordship and the court will look upon it , as not onely he hath been offered , received , and taken money to discover the designe , and witnesse against me ; but also in regard to whatsoever he swears as that i should bring in the rough draught of instructions to m. loves : and as to my presence at the swan at severall meetings , was both contradicted , and positively sworne against by severall other of the witnesses : none but he doth say that i was present at the reading of any letters of the fight at dunbar ; nor none but adams sayth i was present at m. loves house when any monies was debated ; nor none but adams sayth i was a constant man at meetings , thatever i invited any to a meeting . i hope your lordship and the court will consider , that though there are ten witnesses produced against me , besides severall questions asked capt. potter at the bar concerning me ; yet many of them neither said , nor swore any thing that touched me at all : and of those that doe reach me in their t●stimony , not any two did agree in proving the same fact . as concerning the particular t●stimony of m. harvey , unto which no one witness but himself either say or swore the least tittle of it to be true ; being struck with wonder , and amazed to hear these things given in against me , which m● heart never thouvht , no● my tongue never spake : i doe both bef●re your lordship , and this high court , and the presence of all the people , lay it before the righteous ▪ god to plead my cause , and judge between me a prisoner at bar , and m. harvey , that falsly accused me . i did further desire , that this appeal might be set upon record , and meet me before the tribunall seat of christ , and that both your lordship , and them that sit in this honourable court , might follow this my appeal to the judgement seat , and there witnesse it before the presence of the lord against me when i am p●eading for mercy , if ever i spake , or heard these things which he hath accused me of . my lord , i shall go further , and did offer unto the court , that if in all england they could find a man that would say any of these things m. harvey accused me of ; then i said more particularly , if any whom i had most frequently convers'd withall , or any of those that kept my company would say they ever heard me say any of these words , the next time i came before this honourable court , i would come and plead guilty . and i doe now say , if it please your lordship , and the court to give me time , i shall be able to produce witnesses , i shall make it appear m. harvey is as unfit to be a witnesse in any court of record , as he was unfit to be a justice of peace in essex , where he was indicted for many and notorious offences . if i might have time , i should produce witnesses that m. harvey was the originall reporter of some of those things he accused me of . and concerning major corbets testimony , i know little in it , but that i shall call god to witnesse i knew not mason ; i did then in the face of the court declare how much he had wronged me , for that i had acquainted the committee who examined me , that i both knew mason , and told them the place , and how i came to know him ; besides , there is a copy of my examination abroad that doth confirm the same ; that corbet came to me more like a murtherer , then like a christian : and because i did call god to witnesse against these untruths he charged me withall , he did in effect , judge my soul to the devill , and my body to the gallowes , and so he left . for which unchristian carriage of his , i both complained to m. price , clarke to the warden in the fleet , my keeper , and some others . my lord , i am charged with being a solicitor , and represented as a man that had nothing else to do but follow such businesses as here i am accused of ; which is a life so unlike an english man , and so ill-becoming a christian , that i have all the dayes of my life walked a contrary course : if it were necessary , multitudes of witnesses will testifie the same for me . i was entertained by my master to waite upon him in his chamber , after he was gone to the house , i had constant occasions to go into the city , either to lay out , pay ▪ or receive money : so much experience had i gained , as i entred upon a merchants trade , dealt with many and severall merchantable cōmodities , having a wife children then living , that was the trade i resolved to follow . my wife dying , i went over to france some little time after with my master ▪ and carried many merchantable commodities with me , where i found library to encrease my experience my master returning to england , where he stayed not a year ▪ but we 〈◊〉 back again into france , i was left behind to wait upon my lady : my imployment in my ladies service is sufficiently known to be such as daily lead me to go into the city ; the th of july . my lady went from the city , there was a necessity one man she must leave behind in london , which fell to my portion , and my businesses called me daily into the city , sometimes to go to councell , sometimes to shew bills of exchange , sometimes to pay monies , sometimes to lay out money , and buy severall things which both my master and lady did daily send for to me ; there was some letters that came constantly every week from my lady ; some out of france to one m. charboners , whose house was in tower-street : i missing these letters often on the monday , went on the tuesday for them , which was the day that we met at the club , which was the main reason of my being so constantly there ; where i met for no other end then to see the faces ▪ of my friends , and to discourse of the newes of the town : most of what ever i heard there discoursed on , i found in the printed books ; nothing doe i know was ever said or done there prejudiciall to the state ; but since it is looked upon as a crime , i would i had never come there . concerning my master , were it necessary , i would here make a declaration , that he never left me to do any businesse , but to wait upon his lady , and to provide , buy , and send those things into france that were necessary for him : for letters , i never received any from him , but such as might have lookt all the world in the face ; neither think i , i need say much to clear this , for that the state have seen most of those letters that my master sent before they ever came to my hands . my lord , this is all i can say , being unwilling to trouble the court any longer , but must declare how much i am amazed to be indicted by so high a charge , of treason , as i dare say never lookt any such man as i am in my condition in the face till now , and doe fully perswade my self that your lordship will rather pity my ignorance , and sad condition ; then look upon me as a man either fit for plots , or any such matter i am charged with . i doe protest , that if i would make a declaration of every act i have done , of every word i have said , of every line i have written ; i never knew it came up to the border of treason , what ever is laid to my charge : and whereas major adams charges me of being at severall meetings presently after the late kings death ; i did not see them not nine months after the death of the king : and after i came acquainted with alford , and all that ever he layes to my charge , is going down to gravesend , but he did not say whether he or i carried the commissions or letters he speaks of ; it is hard for me to remember what the discourse was a year and half since , but i dare say he doth most falsly charge me that i should bid him shew kindnesse to mason , that so he might represent the presbyterian party considerable to the king , and that i should bid him disburse some money , and pay all the charges , and if it was not paid him by the company again , i would ; this to the best of my remembrance is all false ; capt. far ( who is another of the witnesses , who went along with me , and alford ) did declare it in the face of the court , that he knew no such thing , and that major alford was the man that invited him to gravesend ; and so i doe protest , he did me , or else i had never gone . for letters , i doe not remember that ever i touched any ; nor did major alford in the least swear positively i did ; onely he saith either he or i did deliver them ; alford doth not swear that ever i wrote , that ever i saw them open , or ever heard them read . all this my lord was done above a year and half ago , and i hope if there shall be any thing found done amisse in that journy , the acts will clear me , for that it is said , if a man be not indicted within a year , he is not to be arraigned , or questioned . all that maj. huntington says , is , he saw me at master loves when the instructions were read , but whether i heard them he could not swear , but he saw me go out of one room into another ; and since he sayes i met him in the street , and asked him if he would not go to m. loves to hear newes : and when we came there , after prayer half an hour , will . drake pulled a letter out of his pocket , neither swore he what it was , nor that i heard it read . my lord , upon the whole , i do say , among all the ten witnesses , there is not one that doth say or swear that ever i wrote letter , sent letter , or received letter ; that ever i collected money , paid money , or received money ; or that ever i discoursed any thing prejudiciall to the state ; not any one witnesse doth say any one thing to my charge done for more then this year and half besides major adams ; and all that ever he swears , is , being present at letters read ; he neither sayes i heard them , or ever discoursed any thing concerning them . so my lord , except it be one single witness , there is nothing laid to my charge done this year and half ; so my lord , the utmost that the whole proof against me doth amount unto is , but hearing of letters read at the second hand , and all this but in the utmost were but misprision of treason if fully proved ; but being but one single witnesse to swear this , i cannot imagine it will ever hurt me . for potter , jekell , far , or alford , ( who knew as much by me as adams ) did not say any such thing ; and all that adams did say , is but hearing of letters ; he doth not say that ever i sent means to the king : though i never did this , yet i have weakned my self , and opened my purse to help the state . about the time the kings & scots were agreed , i furnished my brother with a considerable sum of money , and sent him into ireland to doe the states service , where he gained a command under my lord , and did very good service for the state . my lord , had i ever such a mind to the war in scotland , i could have sent my brother thither , and not into ireland . thus my lord , i have gone as far as i can in making my appeal to the court , being utterly unable to make any defence , i do hope there wil be no advantange taken by my ignorance , but you will be pleased to take my condition into your consideration , and yet grant me both time and councell , and give me a copy of my charge , and the depositions of the witnesses , which is no more favour then was allowed to the archbishop of canterbury , and deputy of ireland : i crave leave of your lordship , and the court , that i may not suffer for want of experience , nor that my ignorance may be made use of to work my ruine and destruction : from my youth i have studied the scripture , but never have studied the lawes in my life , and therefore all that i have to help my self with is , from the scripture ; where i find that ignorance hath constantly the plea at the bar of heaven , and so i am certain should have at the bars of all the courts of justice . abimelech that committed a very great sin in taking another mans wife from him , he pleaded his integrity , and god did spare him , because he knew it not ▪ god hath alwayes been wonderfull tender of the life of a man , and that in the time of the most strictest lawes , so much care did he take to preserve the life of man , that he provided cities of refuge to flie unto , if any killed a man by accident , or unawares : murther is a great crying sin , yet were it done unawares god made a city of refuge to flie unto , that the man might be safe , & out of danger of the revenger . my lord , whatsoever i have done amiss , i do profess it is out of ignorance , i never knew i broke any of the acts of parl. nor that i offended the laws of england ; & therefore i hope my ignorance shall have the plea at your bar , as i am sure it shall have at the bar of god ; i have often heard that the law of england is the law of mercy , and that there is no law in the world looks with more tenderness and compassion upon a mans life : therefore i say as david concerning the sword of goliah , there is none like that , give it me ; the same i do say this day , no law is like to our english laws , therefore let me enjoy thē , i know the benefits & advantages ▪ hereby is wonderful great ; i do verily believe i am before a court that are fully perswaded that the strict-beholding eye of god looks upon them , and beholds all your intentions , and the thoughts of your heart towards me , and sees whether you do deny me any help or advantage that may save my life . therefore i earnestly beseech your lordship , and this honourable court to look upon the laws of england , and see whether there be not some helps , some city of refuge to flie unto , where i may be out of danger of all that i am here charged with . my lord , this is the first time that ever i was brought upon a stage , the first time that ever my name was heard of , or i known to be an offender against the state : and whatsoever shall now be found in me amisse , i desire there may be a favourable construction made of it , and not to be strained beyond what my intention was , who have alwayes abhorred from my very soul all designes that have tended to bloud ; i have alwayes stood firme to the cause of liberty and religion , and all the interests thereof : these are the principles i first took up , these are the principles i have alwayes held ; from which principles i never yet departed , i have alwayes had a bleeding heart when the church hath been in a suffering condition ; i have never been of a bitter spirit , but have alwayes carried a most tender and christian respect towards those that were of an unblameable life and conversation : and where i thought there was truth of grace , however contrary to me in judgement , yet i have loved them , and imbraced them as christians ; i have alwayes lived peaceably , never no disturber of the church or state , either by writing , or printing books , or any thing else . may it please your lordship , it is my desire you should do as god did , when the cry of sodom came up before him , i will goe down saith he , and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry which is come up to me , if not , i will know : the lord that knows all things , knew before what sodom had done , but after the manner of men , he came down , to teach all courts of what they should do before they proceed to judgement . my lord , here hath been a great charge against me , a great crie come up unto your ears , i desire you to to doe god did , that is , to know whether it be according to the cry , that you would seriously weigh all that the witnesses have said ; gather all the circumstances together , and see the utmost that it doth amount unto , and then i am sure you will see the evidences to come so infinite short of what the charge and cry hath been against me , that you will find arguments to incline to mercy ; and if i might not be quitted , yet at least you will let me have those helps and advantages that the lawes afford me , and god hath commanded you to give me ; that you will not keep any thing from me , that i , according to justice , have demanded , and for the want of wch see me destroyed before your faces ; therefore i do once more with all earnestnesse desire you will not deny me a copy of my charge , also the depositions of the witnesses , and assigne me councell to come to my chamber , and plead for me at the bar , without which you take from me all these helps that should enable me to make my defence ; without wch it is impossible for me to go any further , and must declare that i want all the materiall things that should help me to save my life , when i see before my eyes all possible advantages to undo me ▪ mylord , i am able to say no more , if thus my just request shall be denyed , i have gone as far as i can without them both to clear my innocency , and vindicate my self from that which is laid to my charge ; and am most confident , if you would let me have what you cannot justly deny me , a copy of my charge , and the depositions of the witnesses , i should stand as clear in the eyes of the law , in the eyes of your lordship , and all thi● court , as i am clear in the eyes of god , and my own conscience , from what is unjustly charged upon me . and thus much i have done , and am able to do no more ; therefore if you do deny me , i shall be abundantly satisfied ; howsoever , it shall please god to suffer you to deal with me . concerning the witnesses , i have little further to say , but desire that the lord would forgive them , as i do freely , would not change conditions with them , though i were sure to die in fire flaming , or in the mouth of lyons , even in the worst condition that could be imagined ▪ i both pity , and desire to mourn for them , who have so desperately wounded their own souls and consciences to destroy my life . and the lord grant , that not one drop of my bloud which they have endeavoured to shed , may not stand betwixt them and mercy , when they are upon their dying beds a crying for it . and this is the worst hurt i wish them for all the wrong they have done to me . now the lord of heaven direct your lordship , and this honourable court , that you may not suffer the witnesses testimonies to be strained for me to lose my life upon circumstances , or what is supposed to be , or in conscience thought , but according to clear proof and evidence ; do that which may give you comfort upon a dying bed , and no more then you dare look god in the face withall , and answer to me his poor servant , who am innocent at the bar of the lord jesus christ , where i shall have free liberty to speak , and you must , and shall hear me ; the lord of heaven direct you , that you do no more then what the law will allow , and that what you doe , may be according to the mind of god , and most for his glory , and the good of me a helplesse prisoner at the bar ; and so let it go which way it will , i shall submit with abundance of content and satisfaction , and with a quiet spirit , say the will of the lord be done . thus having ended his speech , the court adjourned untill friday next , and so m. gibbons was carried back by his keeper , and ordered to be brought before them again on friday after . friday , about twelve a clock m. gibbons was brought to the bar. keeble come m. gibbons what have you to say ? gibbons . my lord , i have not much to say , being totally dis-inabl●d ▪ and cut off from those means that might help me to save my life , which the last time i was here , i fully declared , and as earnestly desired both a copy of my charge , and the depositions of the witnesses , and councell assigned me this i pleaded for , untill your lordship told me the court would be encreased if i didnot proceed to my defence , which made me dare to go no further , but rather chuse to submit to the mercy of the court , and make an appeal to their justice , where i desired that you would seriously weigh and consider how wonderfull short the whole evidences come ; there was not any two agreeing adams , the materiall witnesse , most what he said , was disproved by the other severall witnesses that came after : i hope the court is very sensible how little is laid to my charge by major adams after so great an inquisition , as he daily set upon me , inviting of me to his house in the city , to his house in the country , going from one shop to another , where he thought i did come ; to aldermanbury church , and all other places where he did hope to find me ; after all this sifting , and trying , what was it he got out ? nothing but the hearing of letters read , which none but himself swears . my lord , all that i have to say is , to desire both your lordship , and this court , to consider with what great aggravation the attorney gen. did multiply , and aggravate against me beyond all that ever the witnesses said , leaving out all what might serve for my advantage . my lord , how the attor. . general could bring major alford , and major adams together , and so make them double witnesses against me , that is not possible for me , or any man else to understand . first , what adams sayes , is concerning of my bringing in of the rough draught of instructions , which i wholly deny , and so do all the witnesses that came after him , to the best of my remembrance ▪ and some of them sware positively that drake brought it in ; none but himself says that i brought it in : to testifie unto this , major alford sayes nothing : but all that he sayes is , that i went down to gravesend with him , and did not say or swear that i either carried the instructions , or delivered them , or that ever i heard them read ; all that he can say is , that i went with them , but whether he or i delivered them , that he cannot tell : he speaks of some discourse concerning shewing of kindnesse to mason , it being a year and half ago , i am not able to charge my self with what i said then , but dare say he hath falsly accused me : what major alford sayes more is , onely that i should bring them to masons chamber in the strand , delivered not , nor sayes that we had any discourse at all , but took our leaves , and came away presently ; another time , said alford ▪ i brought mason to titus to m. w●itarrs a book-sellers , and that mason and titus went up to the chamber , where they had private discourse together ; he did not say that i went up to the chamber , or heard , or knew any thing what their discourse was . now my lord , i hope by this time both your lordship , and the court , are satisfied what slender testimony there is against me . first ▪ my lord , i was never heard of , til● i cam● to gravesend with 〈◊〉 alford , only something that major adams says of m● , me●ting at the swan , which all the other witness●s doth acquit and clear me from . now my lord , to what major alford saith , is nothing but giving a vi●it to titus and mason , which , i hope , will never be thought any crime ; for that neither of them both were declared enemies to the state , and therefore certainly it could be no hurt for me to see them . and besid●s , what ever major alford charges me withall , is a year and half since , therefore am acquitted by your own acts . so that it cannot enter into my th●ughts by what act of parli●m●nt or law you can passe any sentence against me : for all that ever is laid to my charge done within this year , is nothing but hearing of letters read ; which not any one but major adams say s , and he neither saith what these letters were , and that ever i discoursed , or said any thing ▪ concerning them . thus my lord , you see there is but one single witnesse throughout . my lord , i waited upon a gentleman that led me to or meetings , by which means i gained a nearer acquaintance , which now proves part of my unhappinesse , seeing it is become a crime to meet friends at the club , and other places , and hear letters , and other news read , which is all that i am charged with . my lord , i hope i am before a court that doth consider , that all those days works will be judged over again ; therefore i cannot imagine that any court of justice in the world will proceed to sentence upon so slender a testimony that lies before you , but that you will rather allow me those helps that may enable me to end the difference that is betwixt the state and me , that is , to let me have a copie of my charge , the deposition of the witnesses , and councell assigned me ; without which , it is as impossible to defend my self , as for a little child to encounter an armed man with a drawn sword in his hand . my lord , i have no more to say , but shall submit to god whatsoever comes ; and , as i said before , so i say again , i do freely forgive the witnesses , but do desire that the court will not proceed upon so slight and slender testimonies , which never can , nor will hold water in the sight of god , or law . keeble . m. gibbons , most of what you have said now , you said before , only you made some little addition , the court hath debated your business and life , with as much care as if you were the greatest noble man in england , and upon the debate , they are perswaded in their consciences that you deserve to be sentenced . attor . gen. my lord , m. gibbons pleads for his life , and i for justice in the befalf of the common-wealth , therefore i desire you will proceed to sentence according to the judgement of the court . whereupon sentence was read : after that all the whole charge was read , and m. gibbons sentenced as a false traytor , to return to that place from whence he came , so to suffer death , by having his head severed from his body . after sentence keeble spake in this manner . m. gibbons , you having nothing to doe , but to prepare your self for god ; you have a great acquaintance among the ministers , you should do very well to send for them , and reveal what you know , and so do the state what good you can before you die . keeble . have you any thing more to say ? but m. gibbons said not one word more , but took his leave of the court , humbly bowing to them ; and after that , he bowed to the attorney generall , and took his leave of him , and so came down the staires with abundance of cheerfulnesse , speaking to his friends , and shaking them by the hands . and in this manner he went along the hall untill he took coach to go to prison . were we but able to give the world account of these three dayes triall that m. gibbons had , with what scorn and provocations the attorney generall did all along carry himself ; and how much he was dis-inabled by taking away his papers , and all other things , whereby he should make his defence ; and now at last receive the sentence of death upon such a testimony as very few , or none , are satisfied with that heard the triall ; were it all published to the world , i dare say such hard measure and dealing , and so severe a triall was never known upon english ground . a relation how master gibbons was cheated of two hundred pounds by smith , under-keeper at newgate , and dyke his master , who invited him to make his escape , and agreed with him for the aforesaid summe to conduct him safe away , and thereafter basely betrayed him ; take the words as they were less in writing by m. gibbons himself , with his own hand . a true relation how i was invited to escape out of prison by smith , who with his master dyke agreed most cruelly to betray , and cozen me of two hundred pounds . upon wednesday night i called up smith to pay him two shillings , i had a s piece in my hand , let me see it said smith ; when he had it , i told him i did not care if i gave of these for my liberty ; said smith , i was offered . i told him it was the first time i heard it . smith came up again to my chamber about one of the clock upon thursday morning , and when he had awakned me out of my sleep , was very earnest to perswade me to be gone , if i would give a in hand , and promise another , he would let me goe ? i told him i would rather die my self , then either wrong him , or his master , he said it could be no wrong to neither . here he told me a long story of one wharton , over the gallery by the great yard ; i told him there were some friends of mine were looking over , and said i might get away by that gallery ; i told them i never meant to try , for indeed i did abhor to make such an escape , or to break prison to hurt any person . but m. smith still following me with perswasions , and fully awakning me out of my sleep , told me he would let me out of the gate , and did give me assurance it would neither hurt him , nor his master . at last i did advise , and concluded , that if i did not accept of such a fair call , and free offer , i might become guilty of my own death . so at last i concluded to give him a l . and writ him a note for another . smith having got my l . seemed very carefull to have me alter my habit , and told me , that with some difficulty , he had sent his wife away , and therefore bad me prepare to be gone ; he went down before me to see that the yard was clear , and when he had made some search , he let me out of the gate , where , by his appointment , stood dyke , and another man , with smiths wife ready to receive me , who presently called me by my name , brought me in again , and kept my l . from me ; and that same night dyke went down to acquaint the councell of state . now i appeal to all , whether such cruelty was ever practiced , as dyke and smith have done upon me a dying man . it was resolved to go quickly to the scaffold , but dyke and his man , as if they intended to gratifie the devil , useth all possible means to take off my thoughts of dying , by prescribing a way to be gone ; which smith entreated me to accept of , and offered to go along with me himself ; when i did not accept of , then smith told me a long narration how he would answer the councell of state how impossible it was to prove any thing against him , and that he knew his master could receive no hurt , nor he neither : and that he did verily believe the councell of state , and his master both , would be glad if i were gone . i do forgive both dyke and his man , but i fear the lord will make a sad reckoning with them both : remember the words of a dying man , and mark their end , and blesse god when i am dead for his goodnesse towards me ; for all this is so far from unfitting me , that it makes me the more willing to leave the world , blessed be god , i am going from such a generation . finis . a letter written to my lord russel in newgate, the twentieth of july, . tillotson, john, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page image. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). b wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. b ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a letter written to my lord russel in newgate, the twentieth of july, . tillotson, john, - . sheet ([ ] p.) re-printed by david lindsay, edinburgh : anno . caption title. initial letter. signed: j. tillotson. reproduction of the original in the national library of scotland. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng russell, william, -- lord, - . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . broadsides -- scotland -- th century. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - elspeth healey sampled and proofread - elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a letter written to my lord russel in newgate , the twentieth of july , . my lord , i was heartily glad to see your lordship this morning in that calm and devout temper at the receiving of the blessed sacrament ; but peace of minde unless it be well-grounded will avail little : and because transient discourse many times hath little effect for want of time to weigh and consider it , therefore in tender compassion of your lordships case , and from all the good will that one man can bear to another , i do humbly offer to your lordships deliberate thoughts these following considerations concerning the points of resistance . if our religion and rights should be invaded , as your lordship puts the case , concerning which i understand by dr. b. that your lordiship had once received satisfaction , and am sorry to find a change . first , that the christian religion doth plainly forbid the resistance of authority . secondly , that though our religion be established by law , ( which your lordship urges as a difference between our case , and that of the primitive christians ) yet in the same law which establishes our religion it is declared , that it is not lawful upon any pretence whatsoever to take up arms , & c. besides that , there is a particular law declaring the power of the militia to be solely in the king. and that ties the hands of subjects , though the law of nature and the general rules of scripture had left us at liberty ; which i believe they do not , because the government and peace of humane society could not well subsist upon these terms . thirdly , your lordships opinion is contrary to the declared doctrine of all protestant churches ; and though some particular persons have taught otherwise , yet they have been contradicted herein and condemned for it by the generality of protestants . and i beg your lordship to consider how it will agree with an avowed asserting of the protestant religion , to go contrary to the general doctrine of protestants . my end in this is to convince your lordship that you are in a very great and dangerous mistake , and being so convinced , that which before was a sin of ignorance , will appear of much more heynous nature , as in truth it is , and call for a very particular and deep repentance ; which if your lordship sincerely exercise upon the sight of your error , by a penitent acknowledgment of it to god and men , you will not only obtain forgiveness of god , but prevent a mighty scandal to the reformed religion . i am very loath to give your lordship any disquiet in the distress you are in , which i commiserate from my heart , but am much more concerned , that you do not leave the world in a delusion and false peace , to the hinderance ot your eternal happiness . i heartily pray for you , and beseech your lordship to believe that i am with the greatest sincerity and compassion in the world , my lord , your lordships most faithful and afflicted servant , j. tillotson . edinburgh , re-printed by david lindsay , anno . the subjection of all traytors, rebels, as well peers, as commons in ireland, to the laws, statutes, and trials by juries of good and lawfull men of england, in the kings bench at westminster, for treasons perpetuated by them in ireland, or any foreign country out of the realm of england. being an argument at law made in the court of kings bench, hil. caroli regis, in the case of connor magwire, an irish baron ... fully proving; that irish peers, as well as commons may be lawfully tried in this court in england, by the statute of h. .c. . for treasons committed by them in ireland, by a middlesex jury, and outed of a trial by irish peers: which was accordingly adjudged, and he thereupon tried, condemned, executed as a traytor ... by william prynne esq; a bencher of lincolnes inne. prynne, william, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing p thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) the subjection of all traytors, rebels, as well peers, as commons in ireland, to the laws, statutes, and trials by juries of good and lawfull men of england, in the kings bench at westminster, for treasons perpetuated by them in ireland, or any foreign country out of the realm of england. being an argument at law made in the court of kings bench, hil. caroli regis, in the case of connor magwire, an irish baron ... fully proving; that irish peers, as well as commons may be lawfully tried in this court in england, by the statute of h. .c. . for treasons committed by them in ireland, by a middlesex jury, and outed of a trial by irish peers: which was accordingly adjudged, and he thereupon tried, condemned, executed as a traytor ... by william prynne esq; a bencher of lincolnes inne. prynne, william, - . [ ], p. printed by j. leach for the author, london : . running title reads: the case of the lord magwire, hil. car. banc. regis, &c. annotation on thomason copy: "may th"; "may. ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng enniskillen, connor maguire, -- baron of, - -- early works to . jurisdiction -- england -- early works to . jurisdiction -- ireland -- early works to . treason -- england -- early works to . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no the subjection of all traytors, rebels, as well peers, as commons in ireland, to the laws, statutes, and trials by juries of good and lawful prynne, william d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the subjection of all traytors , rebels , as well peers , as commons in ireland , to the laws , statutes , and trials by juries of good and lawfull men of england , in the kings bench at westminster , for treasons perpetrated by them in ireland , or any foreign country out of the realm of england . being an argument at law made in the court of kings bench , hil. caroli regis , in the case of connor magwire , an irish baron ( a principal contriver of the last irish rebellion : ) fully proving ; that irish peers , as well as commons , may be lawfully tried in this court in england , by the statute of h. . c. . for treasons committed by them in ireland , by a middlesex jury , and outed of a trial by irish peers : which was accordingly adjudged , and he there upon tried , condemned , executed as a trayur : wherein are comprised many other particulars and notable records , relating to the laws , peers , statutes , affairs of ireland , not obvious in our lawbooks , and worthy publike knowledge . by william prynne esq a bencher of lincolnes inne . numb. . , . ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer , which is guilty of death , but he shall be surely put to death . so ye shall not pollute the land wherein you are ; for bloud de fileth the land , and the land cannot be cleansed of the bloud that is shed therein , but by the bloud of him that shed it . london printed by j. leach for the author , . to the ingenuous readers , especially professors , students of the laws of england , and ireland . having lately published a much enlarged edition of my plea for the lords and house of peers , wherein the undoubted antient birthright of all english lords and barons to sit , vote , and judge in all parliaments of england , and their tryal by their peers , is irrefragably vindicated by histories and records in all ages , and larger discoveries made of the proceedings and judicature in our parliaments in cases as well of commoners , as peers , than in all former treatises whatsoever : i apprehended it neither unseasonable , nor unprofitable to publish this argument at law , concerning the trial of irish peers for forein treasons acted by them , made by me near years past in the kings bench court at westminster , in the case of connor magwire an irish baron , there indicted for high treason , in having a principal hand in the late bloudy rebellion in ireland ; against whom i was ( by special order ) assigned counsel , among others , by the parliament then sitting ; upon whose plea , and a demurrer there unto , i first argued this new point in law , never formerly disputed , adjudged in open court ; whether an irish peer , for commoner ) committing treason in ireland , sent over from thence into england against his will , might be lawfully tryed for it in the kings bench at westminster by a middlesex jury , and outed of his tryal by irish peers of his condition , by the statute of h. . c. ? after two solemn arguments at the bar , by my self , and serjeant rolls against , and mr. hales , and mr. twisden for the prisoner , and mr. justice bacons argument on the bench , his plea was over-ruled , adjudged against him ; it being resolved , he might and ought to be tried only by a jury of middlesex , not by his peers of ireland ; whereupon he pleading , not guilty , to his indictment , was tried by a substantial jury ( to whom he took both his peremptory and legal challenges , which the court allowed him of right ) and after a very fair and full trial was found guilty by the iury , upon most pregnant evidence ; and then condemned , executed as a traytor at tyburn , as he well demerited . the reasons inducing me to publish this argument were : . the near affinity and cognation it hath with my plea for the lords . ly . the novelty , rarity of the subject and points debated in it , not formerly discussed at large in our law-books . ly . the generality and publike concernment thereof , extending to all irish subjects , whether peers or commons , and so worthy their knowledge , perusal . , and of all publike officers in ireland ; especially lawyers . ly . the prevention of misreports of this case and argument , in this age , wherein many arguments at law , and reports of cases have been lately published by in●udicious hands , mistaking , mangling , or misreciting the reasons , records , lawbooks cited both at barr and bench , and sometimes the cases , iudgements themselves ; to the prejudice , seduction of young students of the law , and scandal of the law it self . ly . the importunitie of some friends who formerly desired copies thereof from me , when i had no leisure to furnish them therewith . ly . the vindication , declaration both of the parliaments and kings bench honorable , resplendent , equal , untainted justice against this arch-irish-traytor and rebel , and that in these particulars ; . in trying this notorious offendor , guiltie of the horridest , universallest treason and rebellion that ever brake forth in ireland ; and that in a time of open war both in ireland and england , only by a legal indictment , and indifferent sworn jury of honest and lawful freeholders , according to the known laws and statutes of the realm ; not in a court marshal , or any other new-minted judicature , by an arbitrarie , summarie , illegal or martial proceeding , without any lawful presentment , indictment or trial by a sworn , impartial , able iury , resolved , to be diametrically contrary to the fundamental laws , customs , great charters , statutes of the realm , and inherent liberty of the subject , especially in time of peace when all other courts of justice are open , and of very dangerous consequence , and thereupon specially prohibited , enacted against ; as you may read at leisure in the statute of r. . parl. . ch. . rot. parl. n. . r. . rot . parl. n. . h. . rot . parl. n. . h. . rot . parl. n. . the votes of the house of commons and lords against it , may . . the petition of right , caroli , mr. cambdens annals of qu. elizabeth , p. , . cooks instit. p. . . and accordingly declared by the commons house in their a remonstrance of the state of the kingdom , decemb. . and by the whole parliament , and most now in power , in the case of the lord mount-norris ; whose trial and capital condemnation in a court marshal in ireland by martial law , in time of peace , without a lawful indictment and trial by his peers , in a summarie way , by the earl of straffords power , then lord deputy of ireland , was one of the principal b charges , evidences against him , to make good his general impeachment of high treason , for which he was condemned and beheaded on tower hill for a traytor , by judgement and act of parliament ; namely , that he had trayterously endevoured to subvert the fundamental laws and government of the realm , and instead thereof to introduce an arbitrary & tyrannical government against law : though this lord was not executed or put to death by that sentence against him ; which if executed , had been wilfull murder both in his judges & executioners , as sir edward cook resolves in his . institutes , p. . . printed by the house of commons special order ; and king alfred long before him , who hanged up no fewer than of his justices in one year as mvrderers , for condemning and executing some of his subjects , without a sworn jury of . men ; and others of them for offences not capital by the known laws , or without pregnant evidence : as andrew horn records in his myrrour de● justices ; ch. . p. , , : who thence infers ; abusion est ( de la commen ley ) que justices & lour ministres que occient la gent per faux judgment , ne sont destruits al foer de autres homicides , que fit le roy alfred , que fist pendre ▪ jvstices en un an , tant come homicides pur lour faux judgements , which others guilty of the like crimes ( especially since these antient & straffords , canterbu●ies , with the ship-mony-judges , late presidents , impeachments , sentences , to the prejudice of the subjects lives , estates , ) may do well to ruminate upon . ly . in assigning this arch-traytor such learned counsel as be desired , to advise and plead for him in this case of high treason in all matters of law arising therein ; which the parliament likewise allowed to strafford and canterbury , though impeached of high treason : and therfore cannot in * point of justice be denied to any other person or persons in like cases , if desired . ly . in admitting him free liberty to put in a plea in writing to the manner of his tryal , and to the iurisdiction of the kings bench it self ( though the c highest court of justice in all england but the parliament , and having lawfull conusans of all sorts of treasons whatsoever ) and not peremptorily over-ruling , rejecting it forthwith , and giving judgement against him pro confesso , or as * standing mute , for not submitting to its jurisdiction , and a tryal by an ordinary middlesex jury , being a matter of law and right ; but permitting , yea ordering his plea upon a demurrer thereunto , to be publickly argued pro & contra at the bar by counsel , and then solemnly argued at the bench by the judge , before it was over-ruled ( being a case of general concernment ) to satisfie him and all the world of the legality and justice of his tryal . and then permitting him according to law , to plead not guilty , and put himself upon his tryal by the country ; not sentencing him to death for treason without any tryal or good evidence produced to convict him . ly . in allowing him a free honorable tryal upon an indictment , first found upon oath by the grand jury , & then suffering him to take not only his particular chalenges by the poll to every of the jurors retorned , upon a voyre dire ( not formerly heard of , yet allowed him , as reasonable , to take away all coulor of partiality or non indifferency in the jurors ) whereupon every jury man was examined before he was sworn of the jury : whether he had contributed or advanced any monies upon the propositions for ireland , or was to have any share in the rebels lands in ireland , by act of parliament , or otherwise ? but likewise in permitting him to take his peremptory challenge to of the juries retorned , without any particular cause alleged ; which liberty d our laws allowing men in favorem vitae , and because there may be private causes of iust exceptions to them known to the prisoner , not fit to be revealed , or for which he wants present proof , and that in cases of high-treason as well as of felony , the court though● just and equal to allow the same to him , though a notorious irish rebel . wherefore it ought much more to be allowed to all english freemen lesse peccant , and not so notoriously guilty as this transcendent traytor ; the debarring the party indicted of his lawfull challenges , being to debar him of a principal matter concerning his tryal , yea a means to take away his life without just cause or guilt ; much more then a tryal by such iurors , committees , commissioners or other judges nominated by persons interessed , or parties , without the denomination or direction of sworn officers of justice alone , against the course of the common law , as the statute of h. . c. . and cooks instit. p. , . resolve . in this argument the readers ( especially irish students of the law may take notice ; first , of some observable passages and * records touching the setling of the laws and great charter of england in ireland , the endenization of irish-natives to make them capable of the laws and liberties of the english there ; the statutes , peers of ireland , and the tryal of peers there for treasons , not obvious in other law books ; to which i at first imended to have added an appendix of the most remarkable passages in our histories , and chiefest records in the tower relating to the sover aign jurisdiction of the kings and parliaments of england over ireland , and to the parliaments , officers , government , and affairs thereof , not hitherto published , and unknown to most , of very necessary and excellent use . which being over-large for an appendix , i must reserve for a particular treatise by themselves ; or joyned with some other records and histories relating unto scotland , most worthy of publick view , if god send health and opportunity to communicate them to posterity . only i shall here insert one pertinent record to manifest , that the trying of irish malefactors in england , the binding them to appear , the recording their defaults , and giving judgement against them for not appearing here for murders , robberies , and felonies committed or acted by them in ireland , is no novelty ( having omitted it in my argument ) it being in use in the ninth year of king john , as this patent manifests . e rex m. filio henrici , iusticiario hiberniae salutem . mandamus vobis quod deduci faeiatis secundum judicium comitis dublin , galfredum de marisco & alios qui rectati sunt de incendio & roberia & morte homnum , & aliis rectis quo● pertienent ad coronam nostram unde eis dies datus est coram nobis in anglia a die sancti michaelis ad dies , ad quem non venerunt nec pro se responsales miserunt , et absentiam suam die illo attornatis eis in defaltam et ipsos 〈…〉 secundum judicium ●●●dict , comiti●de vita et membris , et obsidibus , et vadiis , et plegiis . teste me●pso apud theoukesbury , die novembris . ly . the readers may herein discern the treacheries , conspiracies , insurrections , rebellions of the native irish in all ages since their submission to king henry the d . anno . and their swearing of fealty to him and his heirs , for ever as to their lawfull kings and lords , recorded at large in our k historians , towards our kings and english nation , and their frequent endeavours utterly to cast off their dominion , and extirpate them out of ireland , which is notably expressed in many of our records , as claus. e. . part . m. . dorso . pa● . e. . pars . m. . cl. e. . m. . claus. . e. . m. . dors . & claus. e. . m. . & dors . , whence giraldus cambrensis ( who went along into ireland with king henry the d . and with his son john , when made king thereof by his father , who made the first and fullest description of it , and its conquest , and of the manners , qualities of the irish ; of any of our historians ) gives this character of them and their deportment towards the english in that age ; l praeomnt alia gente proditionibus semper insistunt ; fidem datam nemini servant , fidei et sacramenti religionem quam sibi semper servari summopere volunt , aliis praestitam quotidie violarenec verecundantur , nec verentur : unde et cum cautelas omnes observaveris & adhibueris , cum securitati & indemnitati tuaetam sacramentis et obsidibus , quam ami●itiis firmiter junctis , & beneficiis multimodè collatis , modis omnibus invigelaveris , tunc primo timendum est tibi : quia tunc prae●ipuè ipsorum vigilat malitia , cum ex securitatis abundantia te tibi praesenserint non invigilare : tum demum ad arcem nequitiae , tum ad assueta fallaciae telae confugiunt , ut sumpta securitatis occasione laedere valeant vel improvisum . he subjoins . inter alia multa artis iniquae figmenta , hoc unum habent tanquam praecipuum argumentum : ( and ô that too many english as well as irish were not guilty of this transcendent treachery and hypocrisie ! ) sub religionis et pacis obtentu ad sacrum aliquem locum conveniunt cum eo quem oppetere cupiunt : primo compaternatis foedera jungunt : deinde ter circa ecclesiam se invicem portant ; postmodum ecclesiam intrantes coram altari reliquiis sanctorum , sacramentis multifarie praestitis , demum missae celebratione , et orationibus sanctorum sacerdotum canquam dispensatione quadam , indi●●olubiliter faederantur . ad ultimum vero ad majorem amicitiae confirmationem , et quasi negotii consummationem sanguirē sponte ad hoc fusum , uterque alterius bibit . hoc autem de ritu gentilium adhuc habent , qui sanguinem in firmandis faederibus uti solent . o quoties in ipso desponsationis hujus articulo a viris sanguinum et dolosis , tam dolose & inique funditur sanguis , ut alteruter penitus maneat exanguis ! o quoties eadem hor a et in continenti , vel sequitur , vel praevenit , vel etiam inaudito more sanguinolentum divortium ipsum interumpit desponsationem ! adeo proditionis pestis h●c invaluit et quasi radices pouit , adeo in naturam converti praevalet pravae consuetudinis longus abusus , adeo a convictu mores formantur , et qui tangit picem coni●quinabitur ab ea , adeo mali vis magna est , quod etiam advenae eodem vitio inquinati sunt . he adds in another place , m ad resistendum anglis , et antiquae libertatis sub capitum discrimine iura tuendum , unanimi voto conspirant . et ut hunc plenius affectum deducere possint ad effectum , vinctis undique faederibus , de novo fiunt ex hinc amici qui antea fuerunt inimici . all which we find verified of them in this last rebellion and massacre of the english , for which this prisoner was indicted and executed : so as we may well conclude of the irish in his ensuing words . n nationis subdolae longè fortius timenda est ar● , quam mars ; pax , quam fax ; mel , quam fel ; ma litia , quam militia ; proditio , quam expeditio ; amicitia praefucata , quam inimicitia despicata . ly . the readers may here in part discern , by whom , and in what manner the laws of england were first established in ireland , and how farr , and to what persons there : to which i shall add this passage of o mat. paris , an. . touching k. henry the . his setling our lawsthere . rex pater antequam ab hybernia rediret apud lissemor concilium congregavit , ubi leges angliae ab omnibus sunt gratanter acceptae , et juratoria cautione praestita , confirmatae . with that of p sy●vester●●a●●us , who ●●●●●ing the constitutions made at the council of cassils in ireland under this king henry for the government of the church , and ●eformation of the manners of the irish , there recorded at large , concludes thus . itaque ●m●●● divina ad instar sacrosanctae eccles●e iuxta quod anglicana observat ecclesia in omnibus partibus hyberniae amo●o tra●●●●tur . dignum etenim & sust issi●●m est , ut sicut dom●nium et reg●m ex anglia , sortita est divinitus hybernia , sic etiam exinde vivendi formam reci●i●●nt m●li●●em . ipsi namque regi magnifico tam ecclesia quam regnum hyberniae debent , quicquia de b●n● pac●s , ●i incremento religionis hactenus est assecuta . after which the irish rebelling , and casting off the english laws , q king john anno dom. . arriving at dublin with a great army ; occurrerunt ei ibidem plusquam viginti reguli illius regionis , qui omnes ●imore maximo perterriti , ●●m●gium illi & fidelitatem fecerunt : fecit quoque r●●ibidem construere leges et consuetudines anglicanas , ponens vicecomites et alios ministros qui populum regni illius juxta leges anglicanas judicarent , ( ●o ●●● ; r in the english pale , and territories reduced into counties , and under the kings dominion ) as matthew paris and others story . fourthly , the readers and our whole nation may hereby and herein discover , for their present and future information , the provident care and prudence of our english parliaments in all former ages , to secure the lives and inheritances of all english freemen and irish subjects against all arbitrary , tyrannical power and proceedings whatsoever , even in cases of pretended or real treasons , and the highest capital offences , by providing and enacting from time to time , that not only all english freemen , but all other irish or outlandish persons accused of any high treasons , misprisions or concealments of treasons committed by them either within or without the realm of engl. should be impeached of , and arraigned for the same , only upon a legal presentment or indictment first found against them by a iury of good and lawful men upon their oathes ; and after that tried for the same by another legal iury of . honest and substantial indifferent freeholders upon their oathes , or by the lawful judgement of their peers ( if english peers ) and not for judged of life or limb , nor outlawed , exiled ▪ put to death passed upon or any way destroyed , but only by the lawfull judgement of their péers , according to the due course of the common law , and not otherwise , ●● the grand ●harter of king iohn , the statute of magna charta , ch. . in h. . e. . c. . e. . c. . e. . c. . e. . c. . e. . c. . of treasons , e. . c. . e. . c. . r . . rot . parl. n. . h. . rot . parl. n. . h. . n. , . h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. ● . h. . c. . h. . c. . h . . c. , , . h. . c. . . h. . c. , . h. . c. . , , . h. . c. , . e. . c. . . e. . c. . mar. c. . & phil. & mar c. , . eliz. c. . . el. c. . el. c. . el. c. . el. c. . el. c. . el. c. . jac. c. . the pitition of right . caroli , with sundry other statutes enact , and ſ all our law books resolve : so that no mans life whatsoever can legally be hazarded or taken away for any real or pretended treason or capital crime , without a double jury , & the verdicts of sworn good honest men at the least , or more , or by a grand iury , and or more peers of the realm , if an english peer ; and in case of forrai ners , by a jury of . english , and . of their own countrey-men ( if so many may be found fit to be retorned of a jury ) to avoid partiality : which seconded must be with the judgement of one or more sworn judges setting on the tribunal of justice . which treble bulwork and grand fundament . i security of all english freemens and others lives , inheritances , families , estates , against all unlawfull conspiracies , practises , combinations , subordinations of witnesses , machiavilian policies , and arbi●rary tyrannical powers , proceedings whatsoever , especially in perilous treacherous times , if once undermined , subverted , or interrupted by arbitrary courts-martial , committees , or any other new erected tribunals , by what names or specious pretences whatsoever of publick safety , danger , or necessity , what sad effects it would soon produce to the endangering , yea losse of the lives , inheritances , fortunes of the most innocent , best-deserving persons , and real patriots of their countries laws and liberties , through the power , policy , confederacy , covetousnesse , ambition , reveng , malice , emulation , suspition , tyranny , injustice , partiality , self-interests of suborned , perjured witnesses , or despitefull , powerfull prosecutors , accusers , and of unrighteous packed , partial prae-ingaged judges , ( admitting no legal pleas against their exorbitant jurisdictions no legal challenges to their petsons , nor appeals from their unjust sentences , though capital , without any clear testimony to prove them guilty and worthy of death by our known laws ) all lovers of their own families , friends , neighbours , liberties , lives , estates , or the publick safety , may eafily resolve , not only from sundry experiments and t histories in former and late ages over-tedious to recite ; but by the memorable presidents of innocent nahoth recorded for this purpose in sacred writ . king. . and of the pro zechariah , chron. . , . . compared with that of psal. . , . shall the throne of inquity have fellowship with thee which frameth mischief by a law ? they gather themselves together against the soul ( or life ) of the righteous and condemn the innocent blood : with ezech. . , ▪ , . & i say . , . behold the princes of israel , every one were in thee to their power to shed blood . in thee have they taken gifts to shed blood . her princes in the midest thereof are like wolves ravening the prey . to shed blood and to destroy souls ( that is the u lives of innocent men under a pretence of law , justice for pretended crimes , treasons ) to get dishonest gain : their wayes are wayes of iniquity , the att of violence is in their hands ; their feet run to evil , and they make hast to shed innocent blood : their thoughts are thonghts of iniquity ▪ wasting and destruction are in their paths , there is no judgement ( or justice ) in their going● , they have made them crooked paths : parallel'd with jer. . . but thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness , and for to shed innocent blood , and for oppression and violence to do it . such monsters of injustice , rapine , oppression , violence , against all laws of god and man , do kings , princes , and great men degerate into even among gods own people , when they break down the pales and fences of publique laws and justice made for their subjects preservation , and let loose the reines to arbitrary goverment , and lawless proceedings , to shed their blood , or confiscate their estates , supplant , and ruine their posterity in a seeming way of justice . the consideration of which sacred texts and presidents should both caution and engage all future english parliaments , the whole nation , and every individual member thereof , for ever to abandon and abominate such irregular judicatures and extravagant proceedings , and not to give the least countenance or incouragement thereunto , especially after this memorable president of the lord magwire , and our many years late contest in parliament and bloody encounters in the field , to maintain the fundamental laws , privileges , and good customes of this kingdome ( whereof the tryal of men by a lawfull indictment , jury , and verdict of their peers , is the principal ) whereby not only the supream authority , but the peoples security of lives , lands , livings , and privileges ( both in general and particular ) are preserved and maintained , and by abolishing or alteration of the which , it is impossible but that present confusion will fall upon the whole state and frame of this kingdome ; as king james himself , and the whole parliament long since resolved in the act of iacob . ch. . and without the full possession of which fundamental rights , laws , and liberties , we can have little hopes , ( as to humane considerations ) to enjoy anie comfort of life , or so much as life it self , but at the pleasures of some men , ruling méerite by will and power ; as the general , officers , and army themselves have long since published and declared to the parliament and world , in express words , in their x declaration and representation humbly tendred to the parliament , concerning the just & fundamental rights & liberties of themselves & the kingdome . iune . . which they may do well to remember and pursue ▪ in prosecution whereof , in the heads of proposals agreed upon by his excellency and the councel of the army , to be tentred to the commissioners of parliament residing with the army ; containing the particulars of their desires in pursuance of their former declarations and papers , august . . proposal . . they desired , that the rights of the commons of england might be cleared , as to a due exemption from any iudgment , tryal , or other proceedings against them by the house of peers , without the concurring judgement of the house of commons . as also from any other judgement , sentence , or proceeding against them other than by their equals , or according to the law of the land . which how inconsistent it is with all military and summary proceedings in all new courts , committees , or commissions since erected , i refer to their own consciences and iudgements to resolve . ly . the readers may hereby discern , that errors themselves in the courts of ireland , with other grievances could not antiently be redressed in the parliaments thereof , but * only in england , till e. . as is evident by this memorable hitherto unprinted record made for relief in such cases . * rex justiciario & cancellario suis hiberniae , salutem . ex parte nonnullorum fidelium nostrorum communitatis terrae nostrae hiberniae , nobis est graviter conquaerendo monstratum , ut cum ipsi dampna & gravamina quamplurima à magno tempore sustinuerint ex hoc , quod ipsi terras & tenementa sua in manum nostram per ministros nostros , terrae praedictae , cum nomine districtionis , cum ex causa transgressionis , sive alienationis sine licentia nostra , factae , voluntariè & absque causa rationabili capta , extra manus nostras , licet ritè & processu debito inde penes vos & alios de consilio nostro in partibus illis , juxta legem & consuetudinem terrae praedictae prosecuti fuissent * recuperare non possunt . et etiam ex hoc , quod errores qui in recordis & processibus placitorum coram justiciariis nostris & aliis curiis & placiis in eadem terra , quae recordum habent , habitis , & in redditionibus judiciorum & placitorum eorundem intervenisse praetendantur in parliamentis in eadem terra corrigi neqeunt , nec alias justicia inde fieri sine remedio in anglia querendo ; propter quod , quidam propter labores & expensas circa praemissa oppositas ad maximam miseriam & inopiam deducuntur , & quidam omnino exhaeredati existunt ; unde iidem fideles nostri nobis cum instancia supplicarunt , ut super praemissis remedium congruum apponi faciamus . et quia videtur nobis & consilio nostro durum esse et grave , quod conquaerentes super assecutione justiciae de iniutiis sibi illatis in partibus praedictis , taliter absque remedio fatigerentur ; per quod pro quictae , et indempnitate populi nostri in terra praedicta sub nostro regimine existentis , cui in exhibitione iusticiae sumus debitores ; ordinavimus , quod de omnibus terris & tenementis in terra pradicta per justiciarios , escaetores , seu quoscunque alios ministros nostros sub sigillo nostro in manum nostram ●aptis , illis qui pro eisdem terris & tenementis extra manum nostram debito & justo processu coram vobis prosequi voluerint , super hoc plena justicia secundum legem et consuetudinem terrae nostrae angliae , of dictae terrae nostrae hiberniae fiat , quibuscunque mandatis nostris * sub magno vel privato sigillo nostro angliae , vobis aut aliis ministris in terra praedicta ante haec tempora directis , non obstantibus . et quod ad prosecutionem omnium & singulorum qui conqueri voluerint errores in recordis vel processibus coram aliquibus justiciariis seu aliis ministris praedictis intervenisse . rotuli eorundem recordorum & processuum in parliamentis nostris in eadem terra tenendis , per justiciarios seu ministros , coram quibus recorda & processus illa fuerint , deferantur , et ibidem eadem recorda et processus diligenter recitentur et examinentur , et errores si quos in eisdem inveniri contigerit , debite corrigantur . et ideo vobis mandamus , quod ordinationem praedictam in terra nostra praedicta teneri , & partibus conquaerentibus plenam & celeram justiciam fieri faciatis in forma predicta , quibuscunque mandatis vobis aut aliis in terra praedicta ante haec temporae in contrarium directis , nonobstantibus . ita quod aliquis materiam non habeat nobis pro defectis justiciae , super casibus praedictis , de caetero conquaerendi . teste rege apud westm. die augusti . per ipsum regem et consilium if then the king and his counsel in england might thus by this their ordinance made in england , without a parliament , redress these grievances and faylers of justice in cases only of private concernment in ireland it self , formerly examinable and remediable only in england , for the ease and benefit of the loyal subjects ( not of irish enemies , and rebels ) there ; much more may the king and parliament of england for the preservation of the kings crown , interest , and of the lives , inheritances of all his loyal subjects there , and securing the peace of ireland , enact and ordain , that all irish rebels , traytors , committing , high treason , and taking up arms against the king , and destroying his liege people there ( especially in times of universal rebellions and insurrections ) shall be sent over thence , and tryed for the same in england , by a sworn jury of lawfull indifferent englishmen in the kings bench , be they commons or peers of ireland , without any injury or injustice . thus submitting this argument to the candid censure , and friendly embracement of every judicious reader , and craving a share in his prayers for gods gracious blessing both on me and it , i leave it to the readers immediate perusal without further prologue . from my study in lincolns-inne june . . on which day of the month . i was taken * pro confesso by the star-chamber lords upon a pretended contempt , in refusing to answer ; when as themselves refused to give me leave to plead , or answer , and rejected the answers tendred in court under my own and my councels hand , to the information there exhibited , against all rules of law , iustice , and of that very court . william pryn. the argvment of william prynne of lincolns-inne , esq hill. car. banc. regis . in the case of the lord cannor magwire baron of ineskellin in ireland ( the chief contriver of the late irish rebellion and massacre of the protestant english ) against whom he was assigned councell by both houses of parliament . connor magwire , by the name of connor magwire of london esquire , was in michaelmas tearm last , indicted in this court for several high treasons committed by himself , together with hugh mac-mahon and divers other conspiratours and false traytors against our lord the king within the realm of ireland in partibus transmarinis , on the day of october caroli , upon his arraignment at this bar , after not guilty pleaded , being demanded , how he would be tryed ? he put in this special plea , as to the particular manner of his tryall only , under his councels hand . that by the statute of mag. charta , it is enacted , that no freeman ought to be imprisoned &c. nor will we passe upon him , but by the lawful iudgement of his peers , or by the law of the land . that after this in a parliament held at droghedah in the kingdome of ireland in the th . year of king henry th . it was enacted : that all statutes late made within the realm of england concerning or belonging to the common an a publique weal of the same , from thenceforth should be deemed good , and effectual in law : and over that , be accepted , used and executed within the land of ireland in all points , at all times requisite , according to the tenor and affect of the same . and that by authority aforesaid they and every of them be authorized , approved , and confirmed in the said land of ireland : that before the time of the supposed treasons , king charles by his letters patents under the great seal of ireland , bearing date the last day of august , in the th . year of his raign at dublin in ireland , did create brian magwire , father of the said connor magwire , baron of iniskellin in the county of farmanagh in the said realm ; and granted to him and the hei●●males of his body , the title , honor and dignity of the said barony , and to have a place and voice among the peers and nobles of ireland in the parliaments of that realm ; by virtue whereof the said brian was seised in his demesn as of fee tayl of the said barony , and dyed seised thereof at dublin feb. caroli . before the supposed treasons : after whose death , the said barony discended to him as heir in tail : that by virtue of these letters patents , before the said supposed treasons committed , he was one of the barons , lords , and peers of parliament in the realm of ireland ; and at the parliament begun and held there the th . day of march . car. at dublin , and continued untill the th . of august then next following , and then adjourned till the th . of november next ensuing , and thence proroged to the of february next following , and from thence continued till the of iune car. he was present as one of the peers of the realm of ireland . and further saith , that on the of october car. he was taken and arrested by certain persons to him unknown at dublin in ireland , and there committed to safe custody for the treasons pretended to be committed by him , till afterwards he was on the of iune car. by certain persons to him unknown , brought in safe custody , against his will , to westminster within the realm of england , and then and there committed to the tower of london , where he is yet detained . and therefore prayeth , that he may be tryed and judged by his peers of the realm of ireland for the supposed treasons in the indictment . to this plea of his , mr. aske the kings attorney in this court hath demurred in law , and the prisoner hath joyned in demurrer : and whether this plea of the prisoner as to his tryall by his peers of the realm of ireland , be good in law ? is the sole question to be now argued . this case is of very great concernment , and yet of greater expectation : it concerns the whole peerage of ireland in some respects , on the one hand ; and on the other , the iustice both of the king , parliament and kingdome of england , in bringing a desperate rebell and arch-traytor to condigne punishment , for the most horrid , bloody treason against the kings royal crown and authority , the protestant religion , and the whole english nation inhabiting ireland ( devoted to destruction by this traytor and his confederates ) that ever was plotted or executed under the sun . the eyes of all our kingdomes highly concerned in and deeply suffering by this treason ) but more especially the eyes and hearts of our adjoyning vigilant parliame●t ( which hath specially recommended it to this court and assigned my self among others , counsel in this case ) are intentively fixed upon the final result and issue of it . i wish my vacancy to study and abilitie to argue this publique cause , had been such as might have satisfied expectation , and discharged the trust reposed in me ; but other publique services having much interrupted me therein , i shall begin to argue it for the present with the best skill i may , and so leave it to those learned gentlemen of the law ( if there shall be need of any further arguments ) who are provided to argue after me , to supply what is defective in this my proemiall argument . all matters of fact and form arising in this plea , have been already admitted true , and sufficiently pleaded in law by mutual consent , and nothing but the meer matter in law rests now to be debated , which i conceive to be but one short single point . for though the prisoner pleads , that there was a parliament , of which he was a peer and member , continuing in ireland by prorogation at the time of his apprehension and sending over into england ; yet this privilege of parliament , comes no wayes in question as to the point of his triall , now only in issue ( as hath been falsly suggested to the lords house and intimated in an ordinance of theirs since revoked , ) but relates only to his first apprehension , which is not here in controversie ' besides , he pleads not , that this parliament is yet continuing and actually sitting in ireland , of which he ought to have * the privilege ; but that it was continued till the of iune car. which is years since , and so intended to be long since ended : nor pleads he , that he ought to be , or to have been tryed for this treason in the parliament of ireland , nor that his privilege of parliament ought to extend to secure him from any apprehension or indictment for high treasou , ( when the treason is visible and reall , as his is , and not imaginary only , in which case of treason no privilege of parliament is to be admitted , as hath been resolved h. . rot . parl. n. . h. . rot . parl. n. , , . cooks . instit. fo. . so as the matter of his privilege of parliament , is quite out of dores , and the sole point in issue is but this . whether a peer of ireland committing high treason in ireland , for which he is there apprehended , and afterwards by order of parliament here , brought thence into england against his will , may be endicted and tryed for that treason in this court of kings bench , by a jury of middlesex only ; not by his peers of ireland ; by virtue of the statute of hen. . chap. . ? and under favour , i conceive in some clearness affinmatively , that he ma● and shall be tryed here by an ordinary iury of middlesex , and outed of his peerage , by virtue of this act . the question arising meerly upon the act it self , which is very short , i shall first recite it , and then draw my arguments , out of the very intention , words and bowells of it . forasmuch as some doubts , and questions have been moved , that certain kinds of treasons done , perpetrated or committed out of the kings majesties realm of england and other his graces dominions , cannot , ne may by the common laws of this realm be enquired of , heard and determined within this his said realm of england ; for a plain remedy , order , and declaration therein to be had and made ; be it enacted by authority of this present parliament , that all manner of offences being already made or declared , or hereafter to be made or declared by any the laws and statutes of this realm , to be treasons , misprisions of treasons , or concealments of treasons , and done , perpetrated or committed by any person , or persons out of this realm of england ; shall be from henceforth , inquired of , heard and determined before the kings iustices of his bench , for pleas to be holden before himself ; by good and lawfull men of the same shire where the said bench shall sit and be kept : or else before such commissioners , and in such shire of the realm , as shall be assigned by the kings majesties commission , and by good and lawfull men of the same shire , in such manner and form , to all intents and purposes , as if such treasons , or concealments of treasons , had been done , perpetrated and committed within the same shire where they shall be so inquired of , heard and determined as is aforesaid . provided alwayes , that if any the peers of this realm shall happen to be endicted of any such treasons or other offences aforesaid , by authority of this act , that then after such indictment they shall have their tryall by their peers , in such like manner as hath been heretofore accustomed . from this act i shall deduce several arguments and conclusions to prove , that the prisoner at the bar , though a peer of ireland , shall be tryed by an ordinary iury of middlesex , here , not by his peers in , or of ireland , for the treasons committed in ireland , whereof he stands here indicted . for my more methodical proceeding , i shall divide the single point in controversie into these subordinate questions . . whether this s●atute extends to treasons committed in ireland , by irish commoners ? ly . whether it reacheth to treasons in ireland perpetrated by irish peers , as well as by irish commons ? ly . admit it extends to irish peers as well as commoners , whether it doth not then inevitably out them of their tryalls by irish peers , and subject both of them alike to a tryal at this bar , by a middlesex iury ? for the first , whether this act extends to treasons committed in ireland by irish-commoners ? there is but little doubt of it . for first , it is as clear as the sun at noon-day , that this act extends to all treasons done or perpetracted in ireland by irish-commoners ; for the main scope and intent of this law being , to make all manner of offences then made or declared , or hereafter to be made or declared to be treasons , misprisions of treasons , or concealments of treasons , by any laws or statutes of this realm , done perpetracted or committed by any person or persons out of england , inquirable or tryable within this realm , without any scruple or difficulty , either in this court , or before such commissioners in such shire of this realm , as the king by his commission shall assign ( the very sum and substance of this act , as the express letter thereof resolves , ) the realm of ireland , being out of this realm of england , and no part thereof , and treasons therein committed by commoner , being treasons done and perpetrated out of this realm of england ; ( as is clear by h. . f. . a. b. ● h. . . b. h. . . b. r. . f. . h. . f. . plowden , . b. dyer , f. . b. cook . report . f. , . calvins case , ●h . . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. , cooks instit. p. ● . . ) these treasons must certainly and most necessarily be both within the intent and words of this law ; and so consequently tryable in this court by an ordinary jury of middlesex , without any scruple or difficulty . the rather because ireland , though out of this realm of england , is vet part of the kings dominions , and a subordinate kingdom , united and annexed to the crown of england , governed by the laws of england , and bound by acts of parliament made in england in many cases , as is resolved and undeniably evidenced by pat. . iohan. in . . n. . rot. pat. johan . m. . claus. . h. . m. , pat. h. . m. . h. . the statute of ireland . pat. e. . pars . m. . e. . c. , , , . e. . c. , . e. . stat. de m●rcat . h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. . ● h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . statutes of ireland , c. . e. . in ireland , c. . h. . in ireland , c. , . . h. . in ireland , c. . h. . in ireland , c. , , , , , , , . , . h. . in ireland , c. . h. . f. . kelway , f. . b. cooks rep. of , . calvins case . in●tit . f. . b. instit. f. , , &c. instit. p. , mr. saint johns argument at law at straffords attainder , p. . to . and therefore treasons there committed are more apt and proper to be tryed here within the letter and intention of this law , then treasons done in france , spain , or any parts else out of the kings dominions , where our laws and acts of parliament are not obligatory . . this statute ( as i conceive ) was principally made to punish treasons , misprisions of treasons , and concealments of treasons in ireland , where they were more frequently done and perpetrated , than in any or all parts of the world out of this realm of england , as our histories and the * irish-statutes record : and the ●orid general treason , insurrection and rebellion in ireland ( much like this for which the prisonner is indicted ) mentioned in the statute of ireland , h. . c. . but years before this act , with other frequent treasons and rebellions there , were no doubt the chiefest ground of making this new law . and that which puts it out of all dispute is the statute of h. . made in the parliament at dublin in ireland , c. . which reciting the statute of h. . c. . made in england concerning treasons , and enacting , ( as this of h. . ) that if any of the kings subjects , denizens , or others do commit or practise out of the limits of this realm ( of england ) in any outward parts , any such offences which by this act are made , or heretofore have been made treason , that then such treason , whatsoever it be , that shall so happen to be done or commitshall be inquired and present●d by the oaths of good & lawfull men , upon good and probable evidence and witness , in such shire and county of this realm , before such persons ●● it shall please the kings highness to appoint by commission under his great seal , in like manner and form as treasons committed within this realm have been used to be inquired of and presented , & that then upon every indictment and presentment founden and made of any such treasons , and certified into the kings bench , like process and other circumstance shall be there had and sued against such offendors , as if the same treasons so presented had been lawfully found to be done and committed within the limits of this realm , &c. addes this memorable clause thereto , considering then this statute made in the realm of england , is most beneficial and expedient to have due execution within the kings land and dominion of ireland , especially in respect of the high rebellion here lately committed , that the odible infamy against the king and queen in the same act expressed , and other offences , abuses , and abominations there mentioned , principally have been promulged , pronounced , done and attempted within this said land , be it therefore established , ordained and enacted by authority of this present parliament , that the aforesaid statute and ordinance , and every thing and things therein con●ained , be established , confirmed , acce●ted , deemed , iudged and taken for a good and right law within the kings land and dominion of ireland , and to be as good , effectual , and of the same strength and quality , effect , force and vertue to all intents and purposes within the said land , as the same is or ought to be in the realm of england ; and that the said statute and act made in england , and every thing therein contained , shall have relation , and take effect within this land of ireland against all offendors contrary to the form thereof , &c. now that act of h. . c. . with this of h. . c. . being principally made and intended for the treasons done and committed in ireland , as this irish-parliament resolves in terminis , and being most beneficial and expedient for that realm ; it wou'd be very illegal , yea irrational , absurd , impolitick , and improvident to exclude ireland out of this law , where treasons were most frequent , most dangerous to out kings and realm , and to extend it only to other places out of the realm , where treasons were seldome done or perpetrated , and nothing so perilous to the king and realm of england , as treason● , rebellions in ireland have usually been in former and later ages . ly . it hath been adjudged by all the judges of england both in * orourks case , eliz. and in sir john parrets case el. cited in calvins case , cooks report . f. a. in his institutes on littleton , f. . b. institut . p. , . and so was it agreed without any argument in hugh mac● mahones case this last michaelmas term ( the p●l●o●e●● confederate in this horrid treason ) that treason committed in ireland it self by an irish commoner , is tryable in this court by this very statute , contrary to the sub●tane extrajudicial opinion of dyer , m. , & ell● . fol. . ) resolved since to be no law ; seing then it hath been thus frequently resolved heretofore , and in case of the treasons now in question this very last term without any scruple ; that an irish-commoner committing treason in ireland , and brought over from thence hither against his will , is tryable in this court by a middlesex jury ; there is no doubt at all of the first question , but that this statute extends to treasons committed in ireland by irish commoners , and the doubt ( if there be any ) will rest meerly in the second point , which i am already arrived at . namely , whether this act extends to treasons perpetrated in ireland by irish-peers , as well as by irish commoners ? and under correction , i conceive with much clearness that it doth for the s●●●suing reasons . . from the generallity and universality of the act it self , wherein i shall observe a four-fold universality , which supplies me with four undenyable arguments , to prove irish peers , within this law , as well as irish commoners . the first , is a universality of the kinds of offences specified in the act , in these general terms ; all manner of offences being already mad : or declared , or here after to be made or declared by any the laws or statutes of this realm , to be treasons , misprisiion of treasons , or concealment of treasons , done or perpetrated out of this realm of england , shall be enquired of by the kings iustices of his bench &c. now these general words all manner of offences , &c. must necessarily extend to all manner of treasons perpetrated or committed out of this realm by peers as well ar commoners ; to the treasons of the lord magwire , as well as to the treasons of mac mahone esq , they being the selfsame treasons in substance , and a manner of treasons specially made and declared by the laws of this realm , since there are no restrictive words to confine these general clauses of treasons only to commoners , and no expresse exception for the offences or treasons of irish peers to be found within the statute ; else there would be a repugnance and contradiction between the text and the glo●●e , and this general should be turned into a specifical in respect of the traitors offending . therefore this general clause extending to all treasons whatsoever done or perpetrated out of the realm , must necessarily extend to the treasons of all irish peers as well as commons , and so both of them by the words and intention of this law shall be triable in this court . the second is , a universality of time . all manner of offences already made or declared , or hereafter to be made or declared treason &c. done perpetrated or committed , or hereafter to be done , perpetrated or committed , shall be enquired of by the kings iustices of the bench , &c. which extends to all former treasons done out of the realm at any time before the making , and to all future treasons since the passing of this act : now this universality of time extends as well to the treasons of irish peers as commoners , to the treasons of baron magwire as well as of mr. mac-mahone , both being alike treasons committed after this act . the d. is . a * universality of place , all manner of treasons done , perpetrated or committed out of this realm of england : that is , in any place whatsoever out of the realm of england , be it in ireland , scotland , france , spain , germane , italie , barbary , turkie , the east or west indies , as was resolved in dr. stories case , hil. eliz. dier b. ● & . phil. & mar. dier , . now this extends generally to all forein treasons committed by peers as well as commons , and so to the treason of the prisoner at the bar , it being done in ireland , out of this realm of england , and so fully within the act . the th . ( which is fatal and unanswerable ) is a universality of persons , coupled together with all the former generalities in these expresse words . all manner of offences made treason &c. done , perpetrated or committed by any person or persons out of this realm of england ; shall be from henceforth inquired of , heard and determ●●e● before the kings iustices of his bench , &c. now any person or persons , being a universal expression , equivalent to all manner of persons whatsoever , collectively : or , to all and euery person whatsoever , distributively , extends to irish peers as well as commoners , yea to all subjects of all ranks whatsoever , within the compasse of this law in regard of the manner of tryal , but such only who are excepted out of it by special proviso . now irish peers are none of those persons excepted , as i shall prove anon . that these words any person or persons , extend to peers as well as commoners , where there is no exception of peers , is undeniable . first because a peer is a person , though of a higher rank or degree than an ordinary commoner or freeman ; and one kind of person in law ; therefore within these words any person or persons . ly . because general laws made for the common good safety of the realm , and punishment of the grand crime of high treason , are like to go himself , * no respectors of persons , but bind and punish all alike . therefore any person or persons in such a publick law as this , made for the common good , safety , and punishment of the greatest treasons , evils , must necessarily include all persons , subjects whatsoever , and except none , especially the greatest , whole examples and offences are commonly most dangerous and pernicious . thirdly in all publick acts whatsoever ; these words any person or persons , extend to peers as well as commoners , and i know no one president to the contrary . to instance in some few acts instead of many ; in the statutes of h. . c. . & , & e. . c. . concerning treasons , any person or persons ; or any of the kings subjects , denizen , or others , that shall commit or practise treason out of the limits of this realm , in any outward parts ; extend to peers as well as commons . therefore in this act of the same nature . so in the statutes of ed. . c. . & e. . c. . & e. . c. . & eliz. c. . if any person or persons shall deprave or revile the most blessed sacraments , or the book of the common prayer , &c. in the statute of eliz. cap. . and also of eliz. cap. . if any person or persons , &c. shall extoll , &c. the power of the bishop of rome , or of his see , eliz. c. . if any person or persons shall bring in , or put in ure any bull from the bishop of rome , agnus dei , pictures , crosses , &c. in the statute of eliz. c. . if any person or persons shall with a malicious intent speak any false or seditious news of the queen , &c. in eliz. c. . if any person or persons shall barbour or contribute any mony to the maintenance of any jesuites , priests &c. in all these acts ( to pretermit * many others ) the words any person or persons , extend to peers as well as commons , as is resolved in the bodies and provisoes of all these acts : yea , in the statute of e. . c. . of treasons ( though a most penal law ) the words are only ; if a man do compass or imagine the deach of the king ; if a man do levy war against the king in his realm , &c. if a man counterfeit the kings broad or privy-seal , or his mony , &c. yet it hath been resolved without dispute in all times , and so agreed by sir edward cook , institutes . p. , . that this word a man , extends to both sexes alike , including women as well as men , peers as well as commoners , lords , as well as pesants . yea all ranks , callings , conditions of men who are subjects : and that this word man in the singular number only , extends to many men to any number of men committing any of these treasons joyntly , as well as to a single man or traytor , because it is a general law , made for the safety of the kings person , and the realm . much more then must any person or persons , in this statute , being both in the singular and plural number , and in common acceptation a far more universal , general , and comprehensive expression than this of a man , in e. . c. . extend equally to all sorts , sects , and degrees of men , as well as it , and so to peers as much as it , and to peers as well as to commons , as it doth in the statutes of h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. . & . e. . c. . mar. c. . . & phil. & mar. c. , to , . eliz. c. . eliz. c. . eliz. c. . eliz. c. . eliz. c. . jac. c. , concerning treasons . ly . my second argument to prove irish peers within this statute , is , because irish-commons are within its verge even for treasons committed in ireland , as hath been adjudged in the forecited cases of orourk , sir john parrot , and mac-mahone : for laws and law givers being no respectors of persons , where the offences be the same , and there being no one clause , word , or syllable in this statute extending to irish-commoners treasons , but which doth , may and ought by the self same justice , reason , equity to extend to the treasons of irish-peers , ( this statute making no distinction between the one and other , and the commons of ireland having as absolute a right and inheritance in their native privilege of being tryed by their peers in ireland , ( which yet is taken away by this act in case of treason ) as the peers in ireland have in their peerage to be tryed there by their irish-peers : ) we must not , yea we cannot in point of justice distinguish between the one and other , where the law it self makes no distinction : therefore since the irish commoner is undoubtedly within the words and scope of this act to be tryed at this bar by a middlesex-jury , the irish-peer ( unless we will judge with respect of persons , and coyn a distinction not warranted by this act ) must be also tryed in the self-same manner . the law is the same , the crime is the same , both in magwires and in mac-mahones cases , therefore the tryal and judgement too must in law , reason be the same in both . ly . it will be granted me without dispute , that if an irish-peer commit treason in any forein parts out of england and ireland , as in spain , france , flanders , italy , or germany , he shall be tryed in this court by an ordinary jury if free-holders , and not by his peers in ireland , by vertue of this act. nay , if he commit treason in ireland , and flye into england ; he may and shall be tryed for that very treason by an ordinary jury at this bar , * because by flying his country , and a legal tryal there , he hath outed himself of the benefit of his peers . therefore it extends to irish-peers , even for treasons done in ireland , else they could not be tryable here in any of these cases , which are granted on all hands to be law . ly . it is evident by the proviso in this act , that english peers committing any manner of treasons out of this realm , are tryable for it in england by vertue of this law , as well as english commons , though they were not so by the common-law . therefore irish peers committing treason , shall be within it likewise , & so tryable here as well as irish commons , else they should be in far better condition than english or scotish peers , and quite exempted out of this act. now the same words that bring english-peers within this law , must of necessity hook in irish-peers too , there being no clause which exempts or includes the one more than the other . ly . the very letter , intent , and scope of this act ( as appears by the body of it , and likewise by the statutes of h. . c. . & , & e. . c. . to the same effect ) was , to make all treasons done or commiteed out of england by any person or persons whatsoever , tryable in england , either before the justices in this court , or * before special commissioners in some other counties ; but to be still tryable within this realm , as the words ( all manner of treasons hereafter to be done , perpetrated , or committed by any person or persons out of the realm of england , shall be from henceforth enquired of , head , and determined before the kings justices of his bench &c. ) clearly resolve in direct terms : therefore to make the treasons of irish-peers committed in ireland or elsewhere tryable here in england , as well as the treasons of english-peers , or irish-commoners . and to send them back into ireland to be there tryed by their peers , when once they are here in prison , and indicted in this court , by exempting them out of this act , contrary to the very letter and intent of the law , is to run point-blank against the very words and meaning of this law and the law-makers : therefore he must by this act be tryed at this bar , and that by an ordinary jury only , as i shall prove anon . ly . the very scope and sole purport of this act is not to make new treasons or traytors , which were none before , but to bring real traytors only for treasons formerly made , or hereafter to be made and declared treasons by the laws and statutes of this realm , to exemplary punishment in this kingdome , for the peace and preservation of the king , realm , and the better execution of justice ( the very life of laws ) upon delinquents only of the highest rank , for the most transcendent crimes of high treasons , of misprision , or concealments of treasons , not for felonies , or petit treasons : which consideration must necessarily induce us , for the common good , to give it the largest , fullest , and most equitable constraction that may be . thus the judges in former times have always interpreted it , as appears by dyer , f. , . cookes . rep. calvins case , f. . a. his first institut . on littleton , f. . his instit. p. . and in orourkes case ; wherein the judges resolved . . that the statute of mar. sess. . repealing all former treasons , but those within e. . and of & phil. and mar. c. . enacting , that all tryals hereafter to be had for any treason , shall be had and used only according to the due course of the common-law of this realm , and not otherwise : exend not to the taking way of forem treasons or their tryals by this law ; and in orourks case , they extended it by equity , beyond , and in some sort against the letter of the law it self ; for he standing mute , and refusing his tryal , was thereupon condemned and executed for a treason committed by him in ireland , though the words of the statute are , the treason shall be enquired of , heard and determined before the justices of the kings bench by good and lawfull men of the same shire , where the said bench shall sit ; and the act speaks nothing at all of standing mute . but this being a publique law for the common good , to bring traytors only to their tryal and just punishment , his refusal to put himself upon his tryal , was adjudged to be a determination and conviction of his treasons within the act , else any traytor by standing mute might evade and frustrate this good law . if then this statute may thus be construed by equity and dilated beyond the words to one who stands mute , for a treason done in ireland : much more may it be extended to a treason by an irish-peer , who is fully within the words and intent of it , as i have already manifested : and it would be a most pernicious gloss which should either elude or nullifie this beneficial publique law . ly . it is clearly resolved in and by our parliaments , e. . proem. e. . of statute merchants , e. . rot . parl. n. . in the statute of h. . ch. . & in divers of our * law-books , that acts of parliaments made in england , wherein ireland is either specially named or generally and necessarily included , do bind those in ireland both commoners or peers alike . this therefore being such a law , extending and binding those in ireland as hath been resolved in the forecited cases , it must certainly bind both the peers and commons of ireland to a tryal at this bar for treasons done in ireland , when the king and kingdom deem it necessary or expedient to try them here in england . ly . the proviso in this act for tryal of treasons done out of this realm , by peers within the same , extends only in positive terms to peers of this realm of england , because they only are peers within england , and so only tryable by their peers , for forein treasons within the same , not to peers of ireland who are no peers at all , nor tryable by their peers within this realm of england , therefore this proviso extending only to peers of this realm , excludes all other forein peers whether irish or scots , from any tryal by their peer● in england for treasons acted out of it . ly . there is very great reason why natural irish peers and barons should be within the compass of this law as well as commoners , and rather they than any other forein peers , because as our * historians , the irish annals , statutes and our records do testifie , ever since their conquest by k. henry the d . and submission to the kings of england , they have frequently ( almost every year ) in most kings reigns broken footh into private , petit , or general rebellions and insurrections against the english ( as i could instance in sundry particulars ) in which rebellions i commonly find a magwire , a mao-mahon , and oneal , in the van , as ring-leaders of all the rest , as they were in this last rebellion , wherein most of the native irish peers and greatest septs have been deeply engaged as principal conspiratours . among other rebellions i find in story , and ( which is more authentick ) in the express statute made in the parliament at dublin in ireland , anno h. . c. . ( but years before this law ; ) that gerald fitz gerald earl of kyldare , the earl of desmond , with divers other of the irish peers and gentry conspiring together , to extirpate the english , and deprive the king of his soveraignty in ireland , did send to the french king , the emperour and bishop of rome , for ayd and assistance for taking the same land out of the kings and english possessions ; and thereupon with banners displayed and great forces traytorously invaded the kings dominions there , besieged the city and castle of dublin , murdered the kings good subjects , who withstood them , and resisted the kings forces sent from hence , &c. for which they were all by this act attainted of high treafon . the like general rebellions have there broke forth sundry times both before and since that act ; but none so generally , dangerously , bloodily , as this for which the prisoner at the bar stands endicted . the treasons therefore in ireland being commonly so frequent , so general , ( wherein most of the native irish-peers , and some of the english extraction too ) were usually chief actors ; there was very great reason , policie and justice too , why such a law as this should be made , to reach to ireland , and why in such cases as these , ( rebellions there being so universal , and most of the irish nobility , conspiratours , and parties in them ) that these peers and the chiefest conspiratours when surprized , should be presently sent over from thence into england and tryed there for their treasons . . to secure their persons from escapes and rescues , which might be there more easily procured , especially when and where the irish rebells are masters of the field , as the statute of h. . in ireland . c. . resolves . ly . to avoid a * fayler of justice there , when by reason of the many irish peers there out in actual rebellion , or by means of alliance of most other peers to them , or of the flight of other thence , or the employment of them in service , or places of trust , or by reason of the interposition of the rebels forces between them and the place of their tryal chere , a competent number of indifferent irish peers for a speedy tryal cannot be assembled with safety or conveniency in ireland to try a rebellious traytor by his peers there ; which obvious defects are all supplyed by this act . ly . to prevent all partiality and injustice in such cases , which might happen in tryals by peers in ireland either by consanguinity or alliance of the peer to be tryed , to the irish peers who are to try him , or by confederacy of the tryers in the same treason with the party tryed ; or through fear of mischief or revenge upon the tryers , jury , witnesses , judges , by the tryed rebels friends , kindred and confederates , in case he should be condemned by them and executed ( none being so vindictive and bloody in this kind as the irish ) upon all which weighty reasons , there was special cause , why both in justice , policy , and prudence , all irish peers , who by publick rebellion commit high treason in ireland , should be sent over and tryed here by ordinarie juries , to prevent the forenamed mischiefs and fayler of justice , and bring them to condign punishment . now in this case here in judgement at the bar , all these recited reasons hold . for first , most of the irish peers were in actual rebellion when the prisoner was sent over : most of the english and protestant irish peets there , eimurthered or forced to flye thence , or so dispersed and imployed , that they could not assemble a competent number of indifferent peers to any place with conveniency to try him in ireland . ly . the enemies and irish rebels were then masters of the field in most places , the prisoner in danger to be rescued by force from them , or by treachery likely for to escape out of their hands ; and the times so troublesome , as would admit no leasure for such a tryal . ly . most of the irish were-allyed to magwire , or ingaged with him in the self-same treason and rebellion ; and so neither in law , justice , or prudence fit or indifferent persons to pass upon his tryal in this case of most publick concernment . ly . the judges , witnesses and peers that should try him there , would have been in extreme perill of their lives , and of exemplary publick revenges from their confederate-rebels , who threatned revenge , as appears by mac-mahons speech ( magwires confederate ) to the justices upon his ●irst examination : i am now ( said he ) in your hands , and you may do with me what you please : but i am sure within few daies i shall be revenged : and by like words of revenge used by owen oneile in flanders so soon as he heard magwire was apprehended . ly . if he should now be sent back from hence into ireland to be tryed , the rebels and his party are there so predominant , that scarce any witnesses , nor peers , nor judges either would or durst there to appear openlie against him ; or else such means would be made to delay or delude his tryal and execution , that by some device or other , there would questionless be a fayler of justice against him . therefore for all these weighty reasons , he may and ought by all rules of policy , equity , and justice to be arraigned and tryed only at this bar by vertue of this act , which so clearly extends unto him ; that so the blood of * above one hundred and fifty thousand innocent protestants shed in ireland in less than four months space by means of this rebellion , which cryes loud to heaven and earth for revenge against this great contriver and arch-promo of it , may not go un-revenged in a way of publick justice to our eternal infamie . i have quite done with the second and main question , and proved an irish peer to be within the statute , as well as an irish commoner . i shall now proceed to the last point , arising from the manner of this plea , that he may be tryed by his peers , not expressing , where or how , and intimating that he would be so tryed here in england . it is briefly this . admitting an irish peer to be tryable in england for a treason committed by him in ireland , whether this doth not inevitably out him of his tryal by irish peers , and subj●ct him him to a tryal at this bar by an ordinary jury , as well as an irish commoner ? and i conceive without any scruple , affirmatively ; that it doth , for these undenyable reasons . . because irish peers , are peers only in ireland , not in england , and cease to be such in judgement of law so soon as ever they arive in england , both personally in themselves and relatively to others , being here in judgement but mere esquires , not lords , and are to be sued as such , not as lords or peers , even as peers of scoland , france , or spain are , as is resolved and adjudged e. . fitzh. brief . r. . process , fitzh. . e. . . brook , nosme de dignity , m. & eliz. dyer . b. cooks rep. f. , . calvins case , co. rep. f. . the lord sanchers case in point , and cooks instit. p. . the prisoner then being no peer in england , it is impossible that he should be tryed in england by his peers . ly . because no such way of tryal was ever yet heard of in any age , of any irish or other forein peer , tryed here in england , either by english peers , or by his irish or forein peers ; therfore such a trial shall not nor can be had or admitted now , ly . because neither the kings bench , nor the commissioners before whom the statute limits these forein treasons to be tryed , nor yet the high steward of england , ( if any such should be created ) have any power or jurisdiction to summon a jury of peers out of ireland to appear before them here in england upon such a tryal as this ; neither are the peers of ireland bound by any law to appear or attend as peers on any such service or tryal here , being peers , & bound to service as peers ( which their patents express ) only in ireland , and no peers here . therefore a tryal by his irish peers here in england is an impossibility , as well as illegality . ly . admit a jury of peers might be summoned and sent from thence , yet it would be a great delay of justice , it requiring a long time to procure a full appearance of peers thence : yea , a betraying of ireland to the rebels at this instant , to send for so many protestant indifferent peers now from thence as might serve to try him here . moreover , it would be an infinite expence , charge , trouble , besides the danger by sea , to summon a jury of peers from thence ; and if they failed to appear in england upon summons , as is probable they would , and lawfully might they being not bound to it by any law and so no fine certain to be set upon them for not appearing , nor legal means of coercion to compell them to come over upon such a tryal , there should be a fayler of justice for want of such a peerage ; and therefore no such tryal may or can be expected , which would delude and nul this law . ly . this statute directs the tryal of forein treasons in express terms , to be before the judges in the kings bench , or the commissioners appointed by the king in any county of this realm . now no tryal by english or irish peers was ever heatd of either in the kings bench , or before such commissioners , but it alwaies hath been , and ought to be either in the house of peers in parliament ; or before the lord high steward of england , as all former presidents accord , and , e. . c. . h. . . e. . . b. h ▪ . . brook treason , , . cooks institutes , c. . & . . p. , , . e. . rot . parl. n. . e. . rot . parl. n. to . . r. . n. . to . r. . n. . to . , n. . n. , . r. . n. . r. . n. to . & placita coronae coram dom . rege in parl. n. . to . h. . plac. coronae in parl. n. . to . walsingham hist. ang. p. . h. . n. . . h. . rot . parl. n. . resolve . therefore no tryal can be in this case by peers either in this court , or before commissioners , by vertue of this act or any other law . ly . this statute is introductive of a new way of trying forein treasons , done out of this realm by a jury within england , which by the rules of the common law could neither inquire nor take notice of any treasons or matters committed , perpetrated , or acted beyond the seas , as is evident by the prologue of this act , the statutes of h. . c. . e. . c. . m. & e. . coram rege rot. . hereford . m. e. . fitzh. obligation . & utlagary . tr. e. . fitzh. testament . e. . f. . . ass . . e. . . e. . , . h. . , . e. . , . e. . perkins , sect. . . . cook instit. c. . instit. ● . . stamford l. . c. . cook rep. a. long & pecocks case , rep. f. . a. instit. f. , . whereupon it altering the common law in this particular , it outs all former doubts , & most punctually prescribes all the particulars and appurtenances belonging to the tryal of them , from which there neither may nor can be any variation by law . first , it appoints the place where they shall be tryed . . in general , within this realm of england . ly . in particular , either in the kings bench wherever it sits , on in such county as the king by his commissions shall assign . ly . the judges before whom the tryal shall be are thus particularly described , the justices of the kings bench , o● such commissioners as the king shall appoint under the great seal . ly . the jury-men by whom they shall be t●yed are thus defined in terminis in the act , by good and lawfull men ( not peers or commons of ireland ) of the same shire where the said bench of the king shall sit , if the tryal shall be in the kings bench ; and if before commissioners assigned by the king in any shire of the realm , then by the good and lawfull men of the same shire where the commissioners sit , which is doubled ( ●ike pharohs dreams ) to make it more certain : and likewise precisely enacted by the statutes of h. . c. . & , & e. . c. . in pursuance of this act . ly . the manner how the tryal , shall be is thus punctually specified . in such manner and form to all intents and purposes as if such treasons , &c. had been done , perpetrated and committed within the same * shire where they shall be so inquired , heard and determined , as is aforesaid ; which last words ( with the very like in the sratutes of h. . c. . & e. . c. . extending to our case ) put an end to the point in question ; for if the lord magwire now at the bar had committed the treasons for which he is now endicted in westminster , there is no doubt nor scruple of it , but he should have been tryed by a jury of middlesex notwithstanding his peerage in ireland ; and he could neither have pleaded nor demanded his peerage , as is resolved expresliè in calvins case , c. rep. f. , . and in the lord sanchiars case . cooks rep. f. . who was tryed condemned by an ordinary jury , for suborning carliel to murther turner with a pi●toll in england , though a peer of scotland , because he was here no peer ; and the forecited books are express , that the same law holds in case of a peer of ireland . since then this law expreslie enacts , that the tryal of all forein treasons shall be by good and lawfull men of the same shire where the kings bench shall sit in such manner and form , to all intents and purposes , as if the same treasons had been committ●● here in middlesex where the kings bench sits . there neither may nor can be any other form of tryal for the prisoner , nor in any other place , nor before any other judges , nor by any other jury , but such as this statute hath punc●…e defi●ed ; and than is by a jurie of middlesex , to all intents and purposes as if the treasons for which the prisoner stands indicted had been plotted and executed in middlesex . therefore to admit him to a tryal by irish peers , and not by good and lawfull men of middlesex ; or to send the prisoner back to ireland there to be tryed by his peers , is to run quite counter and pointblanck against this unanswerable clause of the statute , that he shall be tryed by good and lawfull men of the same shire where the kings bench sits , to all intents and purposes as if the treasons had been there committed . and had they been there committed actuallie , as they are legallie by the express purview of this law , it could never so much as be scrupled and made a quere ; whether he should be tryed by his irish peers here ? or sent over to be tryed in ireland for treasons acted there , after an endictment for them here found against him ? in one word , statutes which prescribe new forms of trial in such a particular way as this act doth , are like letters of attorny , or licenses of alienation , * they must be most strictly pursued , and not varied from in the least punctilio ; as was resolved by all the judges of england , hill. jac. in the case of penal laws , co. rep. f. , . therefore no other form of trial ought to be admitted in this case than what the statute prescribes , and that is onlie by good and lawfull men of middlesex , not by irish peers . ly . the proviso in this act puts a period to this case . provided always , that if any the peers of this realm shall happen to be endicted of any such treasons or other offences aforesaid , by authority of this act , that then after such endictment , they shall have their tryal by their peers , in such like manner as hath been heretofore accustomed . from whence i shall observe these five particulars . first , that treasons committed by english peers in forein parts , are tryable here in england , within the verie bodie and purview of this law . therefore by the self-same reason , law , and justice , treasons committed out of this realm in ireland even by irish peers , are triable in england by this act , else irish peers should be quite out of this act , and in better condition than english or any irish commoners , who are clearly adjudged within it . ly . that tryal by peers , is saved by this proviso onlie to the peers of this realm , which both in the prologue and body of this act is expresly stiled this realm of england . but the peers of ireland are no * peers at all of this realm of england , as is resolved in ed. . brief . e. . . co. rep. f. , . & rep. lord sanchars case , f. . co. instit. p. . and dyer f. . b. therefore no waies within the compass , words , or reason of this proviso , but clearly secluded out of it , and so not tryable by their peers . and this statute prescribing a new way of trial for forein treasons , not triable here by peers before , had excluded all english peers from trial by their peers , by the bodie of the law , as some conceive , had it not been saved to them by this special proviso : therefore certainlie irish peers who are not provided for at all , and no peers in england , must necessarilie be excluded from their peerage by it upon their trial here . ly . the reason why this law doth save the tryal by peers to peers of this realm onlie and to no others ( which as some conceived was not saved to them in cases of forein treasons by the statute of h. . c. . as appears by the lord grayes case hereafter cited makes an end of the case in question , because peers of the realm of england are peers in everie shire and countie of england . therefore by the great charter of england , and all other acts confirming it , and the common law it self , they ought to be tried onlie by their peers within all counties and places of the realm of england : but-irish , scotish , and forein peers are no peers in any countie of england , as the forecited books ●esolve . now this statute enacting , all forein treasons to be triable not in ireland or any other his majesties dominions , but in england only ; it was necessarie and convenient by this special proviso to save the trial by peers to all english peers to be tryed for forein treasons only in england , according to * magna charta and the common law , being their birthright , because they are actual peers in all places of england , and may have english peers enough at hand to trie them without delay upon all occasions . but irish and other peers being no peers at all in england , and it being a thing improper to trie them by english peers being no real peers to them , and a thing impossible to try them here by irish or any other forein peers , for the reasons formerlie alleged , and this statute confining the trials within it only to england ; it had been a direct contradiction and absurditie to provide , that these forein peers should be tried here by their forein peers for treasons , and not by an ordinarie jury , because they are neither peers themselves in england , nor others who should come hither from ireland or other forein parts , who lose their forein peerage , as soon as they set foot on english ground , with relation unto england , where their peerage presentlie ceaseth . ly , the statute is , that the trial for such treasons , &c. shall be in such manner and form to all in●ents and purposes as if they had been committed in england . now if english peers commit treason in england , they shall by the statute of magua charta , cap. , ( yea by king johns charter , and by the common law long before , as sir edmund cook proves in his commentary upon it ; and i have at large demonstrated in my * plea for the lords and house of peers ) be tried onlie by their peers , and not by any ordinarie jurie , by english but not irish peers , as i have formerlie proved . therefore the ground of saving trial by peers , to peers of england by this act is , an unanswerable argument to denie such a trial here to any peers of ireland by irish or english peers . ly . the last words of this proviso determine the case in question without more dispute ; provided alwaies , that if any peers of this realm happen to be indicted of any such treasons aforesaid by authority of this act they shall have such trial by their peers , in such like manner as hath bean heretofore accustomed . it being alwaies the custome of england * since magna charta , and long before , in cases of treason at the kings sute , to trie all english peers in england only by their peers , and such a privilege as * sir edward cook holds , they cannot waive if they would , as it was adjudged in the lord dacres case , pas. h. . and since in the earl of castlehavens ease car. but on the other side it is most certain , that it hath never been accustomed heretofore , that irish or anie other forein peers should be tried for anie treasons here committed by english , irish , or anie other forein countrie peers within the realm of england , nay , no one president of this kind was ever heard of : and it is an impossible thing in point of law , as i have proved ; therefore no such trial by anie peers can be once thought of or imagined for the prisoner or anie other peer of ireland , within the purview or proviso of this act . ly . i shall adde further ex abundanti , to put this case out of all question that i have made some cursorie search into most of the irish annals , histories , antiquities , statutes , upon this occasion and i should have made a further inquisition had i enjoyed anie vacant hours to do it ) yet i cannot find so much as one president of anie irish peer tried in ireland for treason , or anie other offence , by his peers , before this statute of h. . and i believe the prisoners councel cannot ( as indeed they neither did nor could ) produce one example of such a trial there , by peers , before this law , nor anie act of parliament in that realm before this statute concerning treason , which provides , that irish peers , shall be tried by their peers , there being no such clause or least hint thereof to be found in the statutes of h. . c. , . ●● h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. , , . which make sundrie offences treasons , and extend to and mention irish lords and rebels by name , as well as commons : all and everie of these acts leaving both the irish peers and commoners to the self-same rrial by a jury . and since this act i presume they cannot produce above one president ( and that a verie late one in case of treason ) where an irish peer was tried by his peers , and it was the case of the l. slane , much about years since there tried and acquitted by his peers in ireland , as i am informed ; before which time , it was then confessed by the judges there they never heard or read of any one such tryal used in ireland ; and since it we have heard of no other trial there by peers , to second it , but onlie of one noble lord ( the lord of valentiae , vicount norris ) there extrajudiciallie condemned by meet martial-law in a council of war , even in times of peace , by the earl of strafford an. dom . . but not executed , nor tried by his peers in a legal way : all their peers formerlie being there either attainted by act of parliament , as is evident by the irish statutes of h. . c. . & ph. & ma. c. . el. c. . eliz. c. , . eliz. c. . eliz. c. , . jac. c. . h. . rot . parl. n. . or executed by martial-law , as soon as apprehended in the wars , or else slain in actual rebellion , or pardoned upon their submissions , without anie trial for their treasons by their peers . for attainders of irish peers , and other traitors and rebels by act of parliament in ireland ; i find the earl of kildare with others attainted for a treason and rebellion ( much like this for which the prisoner stands here indicted ) in a parliament held at dublin in ireland , h. . c. . since this in eliz. c. . shan o neale , a bloodie desperate rebel , was attainted by parliament after his death ( being hewn in pieces by the scots ) and the name of oneyle extinguished , it being made high treason for anie to assume that name ; and i find a mac-mahon and magwire forfeiting lands among other rebels in that act , which largelie sets forth the queens title to ireland , eliz. ca. . james eustace , viscount of baltinglas , was attainted of high treason for a publique rebellion against the queen . eliz. cap. . i find john brown and near one hundred more irish-men by name attainted of high treason by this act for an open rebellion . in & iac. c. . i find hugh earl of tyrone , jury earl of tirconell , caconaugh magwire , mac-mahon , and above more chief irish gentlemen , attainted of high treason by this act , for their open rebellions . but for a trial of any irish peer for anie treason in ireland by his peers , i can meet with no president as yet , but that of the lord slane onlie , and shall be glad to be informed of any other , to parallel it . indeed in the printed statute of eliz. c. . made in ireland , for restoring to the crown the antient jurisdiction over the state ecclesiastical and spiritual , and abolishing all forein power repugnant to the same ; and in the statute of elizabethae in ireland cap. . intituled ; an. act whereby certain offences are made high treason . i meet with these two clauses concerning the trial of irish peers for treasons onlie within these acts. and if it shall happen that anie peer of this realm shall fortune to be endicted of and for anie offence that is made premunire or treason by this act , that then the same peer or peers so being indicted , shall be put to answer for everie such indictment before such peers of this realm of english blood ( not irish mark it ) as by the lord deputie , governor or governors of this realm shall be by commission appointed under the broad seal , and to have his and their trial by his and their peers ; and to receive and have such like judgement upon the same trial of his or their peers , or making open confession of the same offence or offences , as in other cases of treason and premunire hath been used , or is used in other cases of high treason and misprision of treason ; which later clauses , as in other cases of premunire and high treason hath been used ; and as is used in other cases of high treason , or misprision of treason , relate only unto thosè words ; to receive and have like judgement upon trial ; and so onlie to the judgement and sentence given in these new treasons and offences enacted by these acts : not to the manner of trial by peers , which is meerlie a new kind of trial never mentioned in any other irish acts before these , and restrained onlie to the new treasons and premunires specified in these acts , in imitation of the * english statutes made in the self-same cases ; which provide , a tryal by peers for our english peers ; which was never heard of in any acts of parliament in ireland till these , and never practised that i read of in that realm , either before or since . to clear this up more fully , the statute of e. . c. . makes mention of prelates , earls , and barons in ireland , as well as in england : and the statute of h. . c. . prohibits , that any one of the irish nation should be chosen to be an arch-bishop , abbot , or prior within ireland , because many of them ( against a former act there made ) had been made arch-bishops , bishops , abbots , priors , wherby they became peers of the parliament in the same land , and brought with them irish servants to the parliaments and counsels there holden , whereby the privities of the englishmen within the same land have been and be daily discoverd within it to the irish people rebels to the king , to the great perill and mischief of the kings lawfull liege people in the same land . and the statute of h. . in ireland c. . enacts , that the spiritual and temporal lords of the land of ireland , shall appear in every parliament holden in that land in their parliament robes , in like manner and form as the lords of the realm of england appear in the parliaments holden within the said realm , under pain of forfeiting s. to the king : which use of robes they had there for penury omitted by the space of or years . but there is no mention of any tryal by their peers in these or any other english or irish statutes ; but those forecited of eliz. c. . & . yea the statute of h. . in ireland c. enacts , for that there is a law established , that every lord that is called a lord of the parliament in all pleas personal as well as real , in which amerciaments do lye , shall be amerced s. to the great impoverishment of the said lords , for as much as their livings are diminished and wasted by war ; that no lord of parliament shall be amerced from thence forward in the said pleas otherwise than other persons , notwithstanding any law made before to the contrary . the amerciaments therefore of irish lords and commons being alike by this law , it is very probable their tryals by jurie were both alike , and that they were not tryed by their peers . now the prisoners councel have pleaded in his plea , that magna charta gives the tryal by peers in ireland ; and no other law but it : and that it was not accepted , received , confirmed , and used as a law in ireland till the statute of h. . and the words thereof ( if it be confirmed by that act ) are most clear in it , that all statutes late made , &c. from henceforth be deemed , accepted , usea , and executed within this realm of ireland in all points ; and if it were made a law there by the statute e. . c. . ( which i rather believe ) the words of that act are , that from henceforth all other statutes and acts made by authority of parliament in england , be ratified , confirmed , and adjudged by authority of this parliament in their force and strength , from the sixth day of march . so as magna charta was not a general law in force , use , acceptance , or execution in ireland , at least amongst the irish , till e. . or h. . as is evident by these acts . because i would leave nothing concealed or unanswered that might make for the prisoners advantage , i must acknowledge , that king henry the d. in the first year of his reign sent a roll of the liberties which his father king iohn and he had granted to this realm of england unto ireland , out of his special grace , by unanimous consent of all his lieges , and confirmed the same to all his spiritual and temporal lords and faithfull subjects there ( for their fidelity to him and his father ) to them and their heirs for ever , as a signal bedge of his favour , by this patent . * rex , archiepiscopis , episcopis , abbatibus , comitibus , baronibus , militibus , et libere tenentibus et omnibus fidelibus suis per hiberniam constitutis , salutem . fidelitatem vestram in domino commendantes , quam domino patri nostro semper exhibuistis , et nobis estis diebus nostris exhibiti ; volumus , quod in signum fidelitatis vestrae tàm prae●lare , ●am insigniter libertatibus regno nostro angliae a patre nostro et nobis concessis , de gratia nostra et dono in regno nostro hiberniae gaudiatis vos et vestri imperpetuum : qu●● distincte in rotulum redactas , decommune consilio omnium fidelium nostrorum vobis mittimus , signatas sigillo domini gu●●onis apostolicae sedis legati , et fidelifsimi nostri willielmi marescalli * rectoris nostri et regni nostri , quia sigillum nondum babuimus ; easdem processu temporis majorum constlio proprio sigillo firmandas . teste apud gloverniam , die februari : he being * c. owned but on the of october before at gloucester , where this patent bears date . after which king henry having ratified the great charter of liberties in england , in the th year of his reign ( printed in all our statutes books , and in cooks institutes ) in the year he commanded it to be published openly in ireland by his writ , * rex dilecto et fideli suo r. burgo . iustic. suo hiberniae , salutem . mandamus vobis firmiter praecipientes , quatenus certo die & loco faciatis venire coram vobis archiepiscopos , episcopos , abbates , priores , comites & barones , milites , et libere tenentes , & ballivos singulorum comitatuum ▪ et coram eis publice legifaciati . cartam dom. regis johannis patris nostri cui sigillum suum appen●um est , quani fieri fecit jurari a magnatibus hiberniae , de legibus & consuetudinibus angliae observandis in hibernia . et praecipiatis eis ex parte nostra , quod leges illas et consuetudines in carta praedicta contentas de caetero firmiter teneant & observent . hoc idem per singulos comiratus hiberniae clamari faciatis et teneri prohibentes firmiter ex parte nostra , et super forisfacturam nostram , ne quis contra hoc mandatum nostrum venire praesumat , eo excepto quod non de morte nec de catallis hibernensium occasione nichil stauatur ex parte nostra citra quindecem dies a die st. michaelis anno r. n. . super quo respectum de dedimus magnatibus nostris hiberniae , usque ad terminum praedictnm : teste m●ipso apud westm. die maii anno . in cooks instit. f. . b. instit. p. ● . b. & in h. . rot , pat . m. . n. . there is mantion made of consuetudines & leges reg●i nostri angliae , quas bonae memoriae dominus johannis rex pater noster de communi omnium de hibernia consensu teneri statuit in terra illa . teste rege apud winch. die octob. in the th . year of henry the third , all laws and customs of england were established in ireland by this * patent . quia pro communi utilitate terrae hiberniae , & pro unitats terrarum rex vul , et de communi consilio regnt provisum est , quod omnes leges et consuetudines quae in regno angliae tenentur in hibernia teneantur , et eadem terra eisdem legibus subjaceat , et per easdem regatur , sicut johan ▪ rex cum ultimo esset in hibernia statuit et strmiter mandavit : ideo volumus , quod omnia brevia de communi sure quae currunt in anglia , similiter currant in hibernia sub vovo sigillo nostro , &c. teste meipso apud woodstock , die septemb. the patent of king iohn which this patent mentions , is that of rot. pat. johan . regis . m. . n. . never yet printed . rex , &c. justiciariis , baronibus , militibus , et omnibus fidelibus suis &c. sciatis quod dedimus potestatem justiciariis nostris hibernioe , quod brevia sua currant per terram nostram et potestatem hiberniae , scilicet breve de recto , de feodo aimidiae militis , et infra ; et erit terminus de morte aut post transfretationem henrici patris nostri de hibernia in angliam . et breve de nova disseisina , et erit terminus post primam coronationem nostram apud cant. et breve de fugitivis et nativis , et ejus erit terminus post captionem dublin . et breve de divisis faciendis inter duas villas , exceptis b●roniis : et ideo vobis mandamus et firmiter praecipimus , quod haec it a fieri et firmiter teneri * per ●otam potest atem nostram hiberniae faciatis . teste meipso apud westm. novemb. in the year of his reign , claus. h. . m. . dors . i find this memorable writ , touching the confirmation and customes of england setled in ireland , by assent of the prelates and great men thereof : rex thesaurario et baronibus de scaccario dublin salutem . quia de assensu et vosuntate praesatorum & magnatum terrae hiberniae dudum fuit provisum et concessum , quod eisdem legibus uterentur in terra illa quibus homines regni nostri utuntur in regno illo ; et quod eadem brevia quoad terras & tenementa recuperanda currerent in terra illa , quae currunt in regno praedicto , sicut nostis : et dicta provisio & concessio omnibus retroactis temporibus fuerit obtenta & approbata ; miramur quamplurimum , quod sicut ex insinua●ione venerabilis patris thomae lismor . episcopi accepimus , emanare permisistis ex cancellaria edwardi filii nostri in hibernia , contra consuetud inem optentam & formam brevium in regno nostro ufitatam , breve subscriptum contra praefatum episcopum in hac verba . e. illustris regis angliae primogenitus vic. waterford salutem . precipe thomae lismor . episcopo , quod juste & sine dilatione reddat waltero : episcopo waterford , maneria de archmordeglan , kilmordri & motha cum pertinentiis , quae clamat esse jus ecclesiae suae , & in quae idem episcopus non habet ingressum nisi per alanum quondam lismor episcopum cui griffinus quondam lismor . episcopus illa demisit , qui in illa se intrusit post mortem roberti quondam lismor . episcopi , qui inde injuste & sine judicio dissesuit robertum quondam waterford . episcopum , praedecessorem episcopi post ultimum reditum , &c. quia vero dictum breve tam dissonum est , et contra leges & consuetudines in regno nostro optentas , & formas brevium nostrorum ibidem approbatas , praesertim cum breve ingressus non transeat tertiam personam , nec ratione intrusionis in terram aliquem post mortem alicujus competat actio alicui de terra , illa nisi illi cui per mortem illam jus debetur in eadem : nec enim dicitur intrusor , qui jure haereditario , vel ratione ecclesiae suae succedit praedecessori sui in hiis de quibus idem praedecessor fuit seisitus in dominico suo ut de feodo die quo obiit : vobis mandamus , quod si●dictum breve a cancellaria praedicta in forma praedicta emanaverit , executionem ejusdem brevis supersedeatis ; revocantes sine dilatione quicquid per idem breve actum fuerit in curia praefati filii nostri : teste apud wynd . die januar. eodem modo scribitur alano la suche justic. hiberniae , & waleranno de wellesly , & sociis suis justiciariis itinererantibus , ut supra . in the th year of king edward . rot . pat. e. . parte . memb. it was enacted in a parliament that year in england amongst other things . quod una & eadem lex fiat tam hibernicis quam anglicis , excepta servitute v●cagiorum penes dominos suos , &c. by a parliament then holden in ireland . yet notwithstanding all these patents , charters , acts , the benefit of the great charter , and of the liberties , laws and customs of england , extended not to all ireland , and the irish therein dwelling ; but only to such parts of ireland as were reduced and divided into counties , and possessed by the english colonies , and to the english men inhabiting in ireland , and such irish within the english pale as lived in due subjection and obedience to the kings of england , or were specially endenized by their parents to them , not to the irish countries and colonies which were not reduced into counties , and under the obedience of the kings of england , ( amounting to more than two third parts of ireland in extent of ground ) who had no benefit of the laws or liberties of england ; but by special grants and charters of indenization from the kings of england , which some septs of the irish and others purchased from our kings , as sir john davis proves at large in his irish reports , in the case of tanistry , fol. , , . and the records there cited : to which i shall add these following records not mentioned by him , fully evidencing this truth . claus. . h. . m. . dors. rex justic. hiberniae salutem . monstravit nobis mamorth offerthierim , & rothericus frater ejus , quod antecessores sui & ipse , licet hibernienses fuissent , semper tamen firmiter fuerunt ad fidem & servitium nostrum & praedecessorum nostrorum regum angliae , ad conquestum una cum anglicis faciendum super hibernienses . et ideo vobis mandamns , quod si it a est , ●●●c non permittas ipsos mamorth & rodericum repelli●●● quin possint ▪ terras vendicare in quibus jus habent , stcut quilibet anglicus . quia si ipsi & antecessores sui sic se habu●runt cum anglicis , quamvis hibernienses , injustum est , licet hibernienses sint , quod exceptione qua repelluntur ibernenses a vendicatione terrarum & aliis repellantur . t●ste . &c. by this record it is apparant , that all irishmen but those whose ancestors joyned with our kings in the conquest of ireland , and were loyal subjects to our kings , had no benefit of the kings writs and laws to claim or recover lands in ireland , in h. . hereupon divers native irish men purchased several patents from our kings , granted out of special grace to enable themselves and their posterity to enjoy the benefit of the english laws in ireland , for which i shall cire these few ensuing presidents instead of many of like nature . pat . johan . reg. memb. . together with pat. . e. . m. . pro diversis in hibernia , quod uti possint legibus angliae in hibernia . rex omnibus ballivis & fidelibus suis hiberniae ad quos , &c. salutem . vol●ntes giraldo fil . johannis hibernico , gratiam facere specialem , concedimus pro nobis & haeredibus no●tris , quod idem geraldus & liberi sui quos legitime procreaverit , hanc habeant libertatem , quod ipsi de caete●o in hibernia utantur legibus anglicanis , & firmiter inhibemus , ne quis ●os contra hanc concessionem nostram vexet in aliquo , vel perturbet . in cujus &c. t. rege apud carnarvan , die maij , consimiles literae habet margeria de lessan , henricus de lessan , petrus de lessan , andreas de lessan , bene dictus fil . johannis , ardmagh , willielmus heuke , hibernici . in cujus , &c. teste ut supra . pat. . e. . m. . rex omnibus ballivis & fidelibus suis in hibernia , ad quos , &c. salutem . volentes isamaiae filiae oragilig ▪ & matildae fil . oragilig , hibernicis , graciam facere specialem , concedimus pro nobis & haereaibus nostris , quod eadem isamaia & matilda ad totam vitam suam hanc habeant libertatem , videlicit , quod ipsae de caetero in hibernia utantur legibus anglicanis : & fi●miter inhibemus , ne quis eas contra ●anc concessionem nostram vexet in aliquo vel perturbet : in cujus , &c. t. rege apud westm. die junii , per ipsum regem . pat. . e. . m. . rex omnibus ad quos , &c. salutem . sciatis quod de gratia nostra speciali , concessimus willielmo filio carmok . clerico ▪ quod ipse & omnes posteri sui imperpetuum lege & consuetudine anglicana utantur in terra nostra hiberniae , i●a quod ipsi per alias leges & consuetudines , p●r nos & ministros nostros quoscunque de caetero non deducantur contra voluntatem suam , sed quod ipsi , in vita sua & morte de caetero libertate gaudeant anglicana , in cujus , &c. teste rege apud ashermg . die jan. the like patent is granted mauricio de bre. hibernico , pat. . e. . m. . these records , with claus. . e. . m. . rex dilecto & fideli suo johanni darcy , de nevien , justiciario suo hiberniae , salutem . exparte quorundam hominnm de hibernia extitit supplicatum ut per statutum inde faciendum concedere velimus , quod omnes hibernici qui voluerint legibus utantur anglicanis , it a quod necesse non habeant super has chartas aliquas a nobis impetrare . nos igitur certior ari volentes , si sine alieno prae●●d●cio praemissis annuer ●valeamus , vobis mandamus ▪ quod voluntatem magnatum terrae illius in proximo parliamento ibidem tenendo ; super hoc cum ailigentia pers●rutari faciatis , & de eo quod inveneritis , una cum vestro consilio & ad visam●nto nos distincte & aperte cum celeritate qua potestis , certificetis , hoc breve nostrum nobis remittentes : which compared with claus. . e. . part . m. . pro hominibust●rrae hiberniae de lege angliae utenda in custodiis recuper andis , &c. are an unanswerable evidence beyond contradiction , that the great charter , liberties , customs and laws of england , granted to those of ireland by king john , henry the third , edward the first and third , extended only to the english subjects inhabiting ireland , and to such irish who lived in english counties in due subjection to the kings of england , or were by special charters of indenization enabled to enjoy the benefit of them ; who were but few in consideration of the rest of the irish nobility , gentry and commons , retaining their ancient brehon laws , and would not submit to the laws of england , nor government of our kings , against whom they frequently rebelled , being reputed rather enemies than rebels , and usually so stiled in the statutes of ireland , till the statute of h. . c. . as appears by the statutes of h. . c. . h. . c. , . h. . c. . e. . c. . e. . c. . e. . c. . h. . c. , , , . h. . c. . & by sir john davis irish reports in the case of tanistry , fol. . the common laws and statutes of england being not universally received or established throughout the whole realm of ireland , till after the statutes of and phil. and mar. c. . eliz. c. . and king james his proclamation in the third yeer of his reign : or at leastwise till the statutes of e. . c. . or h. . c. . which established all the statutes made in england concerning or belonging to the good of the same , only as to the englishry , or english pale and counties , not to the irishery , as the statutes of h. . c. , , , , , , . h. . c. . ed. . c. , , . h. . c. . h. . c. . made in ireland , with other acts resolve , which the lord magwire confesseth in his plea , and his council cannot deny . now the lord magwire being none of the english pale , or irish sept , liege subjects to our kings , but of the irishry , and professed enemies to our kings , as the irish annals and statutes inform us ; the statute of magna charta , and the laws , liberties and customs of england , granted to the english and loyal irish subjects in ireland ▪ and so this trial by peers , could not extend to his ancestors till after the statutes of e. . or h. . & of h. . c. . yea after the statutes of and ph. and ma. c. . and eliz. c. . for reducing the irishry into counties , and under the laws and statutes of england to which they were not formerly subject . and from these patents of king john and henry the third forecited , and the statutes of e . and h. . till h. . chap. . no one president of any one irish peers trial by his peers in ireland in any case whatsoever , can be produced . therefore certainly there was no such trial known or in use in ireland , before h. . nor any president of it since till one of late ; and una hirundo non facit ver. if then the peers of ireland before the making of this act of h. . were never actually tried by their peers for any treason done in ireland , for ought can be proved , and there be no express act for any trial by peers there , for any treason , but only the act of eliz. c. . and . and that only for special treasons within those laws , which are none of those for which the prisoner stands here indicted ; i may safely conclude , that this law of h. . never intended to preserve to irish peers a trial by their peers in ireland , which kinde of trial was never before had , used or practised in that realme ▪ and therefore the prisoner shall be tried by an ordinary jury at this bar , not by his irish peers ; because , if he were in ireland , ( for ought appears yet to me he should not be tried by his peers there ; and in both these points , the book in dyer , ( the only authority which seems to be strongest against , is for me ) the words whereof are these in english . the grand chancellor of ireland moved this question to the queens councel , if an earl or lord of ireland , who commits treason in ireland by rebellion , shall be arraigned and put to his trial in england for this offence by the statutes of h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . or e. . and it was held by wrey , dyer and gerrard attorney general , that he could not . mark now their reasons ; for he cannot have his trial here by his peers . ( which is a full resolution in point of my third question , agreeing with what i have endeavoured with arguments to prove , and is an unquestionable truth , which i submit to : ) then it follows , nor can he be tried here by any jury of twelve ; ( mark the reason , not because he is a peer of ireland , and therefore ought to be tried by his peers , and not by a jury ; for that had been full against me , and it is now the only knot in que●tion ) but because he is not a subject of england , but of ireland , and therefore he shall be tried there : which reason ( extending as well to an irish commoner as peer ) hath been since adjudged directly false , absurd , and against the law , both in orourks case , and in sir john parrets case , and since in mac-mahons case : and sir ed. cook informs us in his institutes on lit. f. , that wray himself in orourks case ( where this opinion of his was vouched ) did openly disclaim , that ever he delivered any such opinion as this , but ever held the contrary to it ; and so it is a misreport in this particular : after which the book concludes thus , and it is said , that the usage ( to wit in ireland ) to attaint a peer , is by parliament and not by peers ; which comes full in terminis to what i have last insisted on , and i am certain cannot be disproved . wherefore this authority in dyer , as to all that is truth and law in it , is wholly for me in the reason of the law ; and against me only in what hath been since adjudged to be no law . i shall close up all with a stronger case and authoritie than this in question , which will over-rule this case , and that was in * trinity term an. h. . in the kings bench . edward lord gray immediatly before having been lord deputie in ireland , was endicted , arraigned , and attainted of high treason by an ordinary jurie in the kings bench in england , for letting divers rebels out of the castle of dublin , and discharging irish hostages and pledges that had been given for the securing the peace of ireland ; and for not punishing one who said , the king was an heretick , whilest he was lord deputy in ireland : for these treasons ( all acted and committed in ireland ) through an english peer , he was tried by an ordinary jury in england by the statute of h. . c. . ratified in ireland by h. . c. . forecited ; which secluded him from his tryal by peers , being not saved by these acts. therefore a fortiori shall these statutes and this of h . c. . & e. . cap. . made since his judgement , exclude this irish lord being no english peer , from any tryal by his peers . finally , the prologue of this statute coupled with the body thereof puts a period to this question beyond all doubt or dispute . for as much as some doubts and questions have been moved , that certain kinds of treasons &c. committed out of the kings majesties realm of england , cannot , nor may by the common laws of this realm be inquired , heard and determined within this his said realm of england . for a plain remedy , order , and declaration therein to be had and made , be it enacted , &c. that all manner of treasons , &c. committed by any person o● persons ●out of this realm of england shall be from henceforth inquired of , heard , and determined by the kings iustices of his bench , &c. by good and lawfull men of the same shire , where the said bench shall sit and be kept , in like manner and form to all intents and purposes as if such treasons had been done within the same shire , where they shall be so inquired of , heard and determined . the sole scope , end , purpose then of the king and parliament in this act , being to take away all doubts and questions formerly moved in point of law , touching the tryal of treasons done out of the realm , before the kings justices of his bench and commissioners in england by a iury , and to make and enact a plain remedy and declaration therein for the future , in manner aforesaid , i humbly apprehend , there can be no doubt nor question now moved ; whether this prisoner ought to be tryed by his peers in ireland or england for this his most horrid treason committed out of the realm of england , since this statute so clearly declares and resolves the contrary in most plaine and positive words . the rather , because the kings patent creating him baron of ineskellin under the great seal of ireland , maketh him only a peer in ireland , and gives him only a place and voyce among the peers and nobles of ireland , in the parliaments of ireland , not in england , as he sets forth in his own * plea in precise terms ; as the patent made by king edward the th . to robert bold created him baron of rathtauth in ireland , and constituted him , unum dominum & baronem omnium & singulorum parliamentorum & magnorum conciliorum nostrorum in terra nostra hiberniae tenendorum : habendum , tenendum una cum stilo , titulo , nomine , honore , loco et sessione inde sibi et haeredibus suis masculis imperpetuum . and as king henry . made thomas viscount rochford by the self-same patent both earl of wiltshire , infra regnum nostrum angliae ; and earl of ormond in terra et dominio nostro hiberniae only , with several clauses of investitures ; several habendums , and several creation-monies for each title and kingdom : and as the patents of all other irish earls , viscounts , lords , and barons in ireland , create and make them peers only in ireland , not in england , as * learned mr. selden informs us , and their very patents resolve in terminis . and therefore quite exclude the prisoner and all other peers of ireland from any tryal by their peers in england , either by the proviso or body of this statute , or their patents which are point-blanck against it . and now , i hope , i have fully made good the point in question , with all the several branches of it , that this act extends to treason committed in ireland ; yea to irish peers as well as to irish commoners , and that there can be no tryal at all upon it here of an irish peer by irish peers , nor in any place else within england ; and that only ( as the prisoners case is ) by a middlesex jury . and so i have finished my assertive part . the first and grand objection is , that which i meet with in the beginning of this prisoners plea ; the statute of magna charta , c. . that no freeman shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised of his freehold , &c. nor will we pass upon ●or condemn him , but by the lawfull judgment of his peers , or by the law of the land : which law and statute is among others , established for a law in the kingdom of ireland , there to be put in ure at all times when need is , by the statute made in the parliament held at droghedah in ireland , in the th year of king h. . c. . and by vertue of these two laws he ought to be tryed by his peers in , or of ireland , in this sute against him by and for the king . to which i shall give these satisfactory answers . . that the statute of magna charta in its original creation and confirmation , was made , granted to the archbishops , bishops , abbots , priors , earls , barons , towns , and to all the free-men of this our realm of england , and to them only , to be kept in our kingdom of england for ever , whence it is intituled , the great charter of the liberties of england , as the prologue of it resolves . the first chapter thereof is peculiar to the church of england , viz. that the church of england shall be free and enjoy all her rights and liberties inviolable . we have also granted to our freemen of our realm of england these liberties under-written , to have and to hold to them and their heirs , of us and our heirs for ever : so cap. . the city of london shall have all her old liberties and customs , and all other cities , boroughs , towns , and the barons of the cinqueports , and all other ports shall have all their liberties and their customes . cap. . one measure of wine , &c. shall be throughout our realm . ch. . all merchants ( if they were not openly prohibited before ) shall have safe and sure conduct to depart out of england , to come into england , and to tarry in england , as well by land as by water , &c. in cap. . all weeres shall be utterly put down between thames and medway , and throughout all england : and the conclusion , c. . concerns the realm of england , and englishmen only . neither doth the * charter of king john , nor that of the of h , . nor h. . m. . nu . . nor of h. . nor yet of e. . cited in co. institutes , p. , and . and in his institut . on littleton , f. . establish mag. char. at least in relation to all the native irish but english alone , it being made particularly for the realm of england and english men : and therefore the prisoner pleads , it was setled there only as a law to be received and put in use ( in respect of the irish then living only in the english pale and the kings loyal subjects , not of any irish enemies in hostility ) by the statute of h. . c. . but not before : and so is sir ed. cooks opinion in express terms in his institut . pag. ● . by which it is most clear , that from king henry the seconds dayes , ( who first subdued ireland , an. . ) there were no trials in ireland , of any english or irish peers subjects to our kings , for treason by their irish peers by vertue of magna charta , till after the statute of h. . which was made but forty six yeers before the statute of h. . between which , and this later law we read not of one trial of any irish peer for treason there by his peers , nor yet since , that i can find ( but only one of late by el. c. , . ) till this very day : by which it is most apparent , that this tryal by peers in ireland a privilege now inficted on ) was never actually claimed or enjoyed by any peer of ireland , especially by those in antient emnity and rebellion against our kings , stiled * enemies in the irish statutes , and english records before the statute of h. . and so it can be no prejudice nor injustice at all , nor breach of magna charta , to out the prisoner of it . ly . it may be questioned upon very good reasons , whether the statute of h. . ch. . doth consirm this statute of magna charta in ireland or not ? at least as to irish peers , especially those of the old irish bloud ( to whom it relates not , as i have proved in the point of trial by peers , ) and that upon these grounds . first , because the words of that statute are not , that all laws made in england shall be confirmed , received and executed in ireland in all points : but , that all statutes late made within the realm of england , concerning or belonging to the commonweal ( not peers ) of the same , shall henceforth be deemed good and effectual in law , and received & executed in this realm of ireland . now magna charta , being no law then late made within this realm , but made at least years before it , can hardly ( without much straining of the words beyond their proper meaning ) be brought within the compass of this act , though sir ed. cook in his fourth institutes , pag. . informs us , that hil. jac. it was resolved by the two chief justices and chief baron , that this word late in this act , hath the sence of before , and shall not be taken in its proper sence or meaning : so that the act by this construction , against the sence of the words , extends to magna charta , and to all the acts of parliament made in england , not only late , but even long before ; yea , many hundred yeers before this act ; which for my part ( under the favour of those reverend judges who thus interpret it ) i hold still disputeable , yea , erronious , and no law at all , especially for these two reasons . . because if any law introduced and confirmed magna charta and the other laws of england in ireland , it is the statute of e. . c. . which confirms the statute made in england in the parliament of r. . ch. . concerning rapes , of which there was some doubt made whether it extended to ireland ? and then concludes thus : in avoyding of all inconvenience that might happen , because of the ambiguity of the said statute , be it enacted , confirmed and ratified by authority of the said parliament , that the said statute be adjudged and approved in force and strength , and may be of force in this land , from the th day of march last past ; and that from henceforth , the said act , and all other statutes and acts made by authority of parliament within the realm of england , be ratified , confirmed and adjudged by authority of this parliament in their force and strength , from the said th day of march . so that this law , if any at all , confirmed magna charta , and all the statutes made by authority of parliament in england , to be in force and use in ireland , ( yet only as to the english & irish subjects under the kings obedience , and none else , as i have proved , ) and this statute of h. . which confirms only the statutes lately made , must and doth in truth and reason relate only to the laws made in england since that statute of e. . c. . not formerly there confirmed by that act : so that the prisoners plea , that magna charta was confirmed by h. . is but a meer mistake and a void plea : neither are the judges here bound to take notice of this irish act of e. . c. . unless pleaded by the prisoner , being no law of this kingdom and not binding here . . because the forementioned charters of * joh. . and h. . &c. confirming the use of the laws of the realm of england in ireland , did not extend to settle magna charta there , ( at least wise not as to the benefit of the natural irish , but to the english and the irish within the english pale alone ) as is agreed by sir ed. cook , and in a manner resolved by this act of h. . as the words thereof , from henceforth be deemed good and effectual in the law , and over that be used , accepted and executed within the land of ireland , in all points , at all times requisite , import . and if those charters extended not to magna charta , which are fuller then this act , i doubt this law will hardly do it . ly . admit the law of h. . extends to magna charta in some particulars thereof formerly used in ireland , yet it reacheth not to the trying of irish peers by their peers now in question , for these ensuing reasons . . because trial of irish peers , by their peers in ireland was never used nor heard of , nor is there any one instance to be found before or since magna charta , till h. . which there setled that great charter for a law , nor from h. . till h. . nor since that , but of late in one case only about twenty yeers since , till this instant . now what littleton notes of the statute of merton , * sect. . that no action can be brought upon that statute for a disparagement , for that since the making of it , it was never seen nor heard , that any such action was brought upon it against the guardian : and if any action might have been brought upon this matter , it will be intended that sometime it would have been put in ure . the like shall i say concerning magna charta , and the trial of irish peers by their peers in ireland , that if the trying of irish peers by their peers had been the common law of ireland , or if magna charta and h. . had established it there for a law , it would some time or other have been there put in ●re , and some peers there would have claimed and enjoyed this their priviledge in point of trial : but since it was never yet in use there , for ought i finde , nor any one can prove , before h. . i cannot deem it the common law , nor priviledge of the peers of ireland , but the peculiar priviledge of our english peers , both by the common , statute-law , and great-charter of england , and no trial of right incident to irish peers as it is to english . therefore this kinde of trial neither is confirmed to , nor intended to be conferred on irish peers by magna charta , which is but a confirmation only of our * common laws of england , and no introduction of any new law here ; and so should introduce no new law there , but confirm the common laws and customes there formerly used and so the tryal by peers is not there setled in respect of the irish peers , by the statute of h. . now that which principally confirms me in this opinion is the two special acts of parliament , made in ireland in eliz. c. . & . * already cited , which create a special form of tryal of irish peers , not by their peers there of irish blood , but by their peers of that realm of the english blood alone , only in the new treasons and premunires specified in and created by those two acts ; but in no other treasons : which clauses had been merely nugatory and superfluous had the tryal of irish peers in ireland by irish peers been the birth-right and known priprivilege of irish peers , either by the common law there used , or by the custome of ireland , or by magna charta , with this act of h. . confirming it ; it therefore never being the intent of this act , nor of magna charta , to grant any new privilege or form of tryal to irish peers , which they never formerly enjoyed , neither the one nor other will sufficiently support the prisosoners plea ; nor indulge him any tryal here or there by his peers of ireland ( at least of irish blood ) for so horrid a treason as this ; which i hope is a satisfactory answer to this objection , since custome is the best expositer of all antient laws , as sir edw. cook declares in his commentary on littleton , sect. . f. . b. ly . admit the objection true , that magna charta extends to ireland , by vertue of this act of h. . so far as to give irish peers in ireland , ( though not of the english pale ) a trial by their peers , which they had not before its confirmation there ; yet then i answer , that this statute of h. . ch. , upon which the prisoner is arraigned , by making all treasons done and perpetrated in ireland , triable in england , when there is just occasion , ( as now there is in this time of a universal horrid rebellion , and in sundry other forementioned respects ) repeals this clause of magna charta , and deprives the prisoner of the benefit of his peerage , if at all conferred on him by it , and the act of h. . since it is most certain , that statutes made in the parliaments of england , ( being the supreme kingdom and court , to which ireland & its courts are subordinate , and whose erronious judgements in their high courts and parliaments there , were only reversible here in england in the kings bench and parliament of england as is evident by claus. . h. . par . . m. . and claus. . e. . m. . h. . rot . parl. ● . . cooks instit. p. . mr. st. johns argument at law at straffords attainder , p. , . k●ilway , f. . b. br. error , . fitz. nat. bre. f. . co. rep. f. . a calvins case ) do oblige those of ireland , not only before but ever since h. . when ireland is either particularly named , or generally included , as is agreed by rastals abri●gement , title ireland , e. . chap. . and e. . chap. . e. . chap. . h. . chap. . h. . rastal parceners . e. . of the staple , chap. . eliz. chap. . h. . ass . . h. . fol. . r. . f. . and cooks report . calvins case , f. , , . instit. p. . it being so resolved as to this purpose by all the judges of england in orourks and sir john parrets cases , cited in calvins case , and adjudged in mac-mahons case tried at this bar the last term , that this act of h. . ● . . bindes those of ireland for treasons there committed , & makes them subject to a trial here , whether peers or commoners , as i have already proved . ly . it is unquestionable , that every commoner of ireland , hath as large , as full an interest in magna charta , the laws and priviledges of england and ireland , and as much right to be tried in ireland for treason there committed by an irish jury , as any peer in ireland hath in or by them to be tried there by his peers , these laws being no respecters of persons , and every mans birth right alike , of commons as much as of peers , as the laws and great charter of england are ; magna charta , being as largly made and as amply granted to the meanest freeman as to the greatest peers of england and ireland , as the prologue and , , , , , , , ▪ chapters thereof resolve . since then this act of h. . chap. . doth without all controversie ( as hath been resolved in the forecited case ) deprive the commoners of ireland of a trial in ireland by irish commoners , and subjects them to a trial by an english jury here for treasons there committed ; for which by the common law , the customes of ireland and magna charta , before the statute of h. . and this act of h. . they could be no where tried but only in ireland , not in england , as is collected from the case of sir elias ashburnam , tr. e. . coram rege , rot. . cited by sir edward cook in his instit. p. . ( the principal case that can be objected against me , which makes nothing to the purpose , being long before these statutes were made : ) therefore by the self same reason it shall take away the trial of irish peers in ireland and england by irish or english peers , for treasons perpetrated by them in ireland , and subject them to a trial by an ordinary english jury at this bar , or before commissioners in any county of england , as i have already proved ; which jury here are in truth peers to all irish peers , being here no peers at all , but onely commoners . if it be objected , that this law of h. . chap. . cannot abrogate magna charta ; all acts and iudgements against magna charta being declared voyd : by e. . ch. . , . e. . ch. . & e. . ch. . therefore it shall not take away the tryal by peerage from irish peers . i answer . that you may by like reason object , that it cannot take away a tryal in ireland by an irish jury from irish commoners , seeing it cannot repeal magna charta and the common-law ; but this objection is yielded , and adjudged idle in case of an irish commoner ; therefore it is , and must be so in case of an irish peer . ly . the objected statutes do make void and null all acts and statutes made against magna charta before the parliaments wherein they were made ; but they extend not at all to future real parliaments and their acts , subsequent parliaments having alwaies had power to control , alter , abrogate precedent acts ; yea the very common-law and great charter it self , when inconvenient or defective , as all our books accord : therefore sir edward cook in his institutes p. . resolves and proves at large , by r. . c. . ro● . parl. n. . , . h. . c. . h. . c. . r. . c. ● . h. . n. . . . r. . n. , . , , , , , . that acts ( yea and oaths ) against the lawfull power of subsequent parliaments , that they shall not repeal such and such laws ( though mischievous or unjust ) bind not at all , and are merely idle ; for ●odem modo quo quid constituitur , dissolvitur ; those who have power to make any laws , having as great , as full a power to controll , alter , or repeal them when they see cause and necessity for it as you may read in rastals and poultons abridgements of statutes , and the statutes at large , repealing former acts : and how often magna charta hath been altered , supplied , or * repealed in some particulars , in and by our parliaments since its making , by subsequent acts both by prescribing creating new imprisonments , forfeitures , corporal punishments , fines , executions treasons , capital offences & customs , imposts , not then known , or different waies or places of tryal not then in use , in cases of forein treasons and the like , by a jury in england not then usual , but since confirmed by the statutes of h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. . h. . c. . & e. . c. . contrary to , or * different from magna charta , and the common law , e. . c. . is so well known to all lawyers that i will not spend breath to prove it . ly . i answer , that this act of h. . doth both alter and in some sort repeal magna charta , and the common-law , as to the point and place of trying forein treasons in england it self , as to english , peers and commoners , to whom alone the great charter was first granted , they being not tryable in england by iury or peers , for any forein treasons by the common-law , or great charter . therefore a fortiori it must both alter and repeal the common-law and great charter as to irish subjects , for whom the great charter was never originally made , not yet directly confirmed to them by h. . but only implicitly and doubtfully at most , as i have proved . ly . i answer , that this act of h. . doth no waies abrogate or alter magna charta in truth or reality , but rather ratifie & confirm it , in the form and manner of this tryal , though not in the place . for magwire being only a peer in ireland , but not in england ; every free-man of england that shall be impanneled to try him , is in truth & law his peer here : and this act , enacting that he shall be tryed , not by marshal-law , or the judges themselves , but by good and lawfull men of the shyre , where the kings bench shall sit , who are his equals and peers in england , and saving the tryal by peers to every peer of this realm after his indictment found by jury : this way and form of tryal by jury in england being then and now the law of the land , is no contradiction or repeal at all , but a direct pursute and confirmation thereof , according to its letter & meaning . and so much in answer to this grand objection , wherein i have been over tedious , but shall recompence it with brevity in the remainder . the second objection ( a meer branch of the former ) is this . that if irish peers should be tryable by an ordinary jury within this law for treasons done in ireland , this might prejudice the whole nobility of ireland , who by colour of this act , might be sent for out of ireland and tryed here for treasons , misprisions , and concealments of treasons there committed , and so quite deprived of their birth-right of tryal by their peers , which would be of dangerous consequence . i answer . that i have manifested , that this tryal by peers was never deemed , claimed , nor enjoyed in ireland , as a privilege by irish peers , nor ever used or practised in that land before this act , & but once claimed since , and that in ireland . therefore it cannot be intended that this statute or the makers of it ever imagined to save this manner of tryal by peers only to irish peers , which they never enjoyed , nor so much as once claimed or possessed before the making of it . neither can it be any injury or injustice to deprive them of that now they never heretofore claimed , used , enjoyed , as their privilege , and birth-right , being not indubitably setled on them by any law that i have seen ; but only in some special cases of treason since h. . wherof this is none by the late acts of el. z. c. . & . when as this privilege is taken from them , not by a bare strained exposition , or implication , but by this express act of parliament made long since for the common good and safety of england and ireland , not yet repealed . ly . this objection with as great or greater strength colour , might be made for all the commons of ireland ( far more numerous and considerable than their peers ) they being deprived by it of tryals by irish juries in their native country , than for irish peers alone ; which tryal here against irish commons was never of late excepted against , this law having been so often adjudged to reach to them ; therefore there is no colour , to exempt irish peers out of it . ly . this pretended prejudice to irish peers in point of tryal by their peers , is soly in cases of high treasons , or misprision and concealments of it , and no other , the statute extending to no crimes , but these alone . therefore the mischief is not great in general ; and no irish peers ( i presume ) but such who have trayterous or disloyal hearts , will deem it a disparagement or injustice to them , to be secluded of a tryal by their peers only in these cases of high treason : and if others who are professed rebels and traytors murmur at it ( as none else will ) we need not much regard it , nor prefer their pretended privilege , before our own kings , kingdomes , religions , yea irelands safety and wellfare , in bringing them to a speedy tryal and condign punishments for their treasons here in england by vertue of this law . ly . even by the very common law before this act , treasons committed in ireland by peers or commons , were tryable before the marshall of england , in england it self , as is evident by the parliament roll of h. . ● . . * where iohn lord talbot , being the kings lieutenant in ireland , accused james bottiler earl of ormond , of certain treasons ( there particularly recited ) by him committed in ireland , before john duke of bedford constable of england , in his marshals court ; which accusations the king , by the advice of his parliament , did discharge and abolish , to appease the differences between them : upon which else he might have been proceeded against , though an irish peer , without any tryal by his peers ( see cooks instit , p. , . ) therefore a fortiori this special act of parliament may subject irish peers to a tryal by a substantial english jury in england for treasons done in ireland , since tryable for them here before its making even in the marshals court . ly . this statute doth not simply take away the tryal of all treasons committed in ireland , from thence ; only it makes them all tryable here , when the king ▪ state and parliament shall see just cause or occasion for tryal of them here , as now they do in these times of general rebellion there , when the rebels are so predominant , and the times such , that no safe , fair , or indifferent tryal of this traytor can be there had or expected . and seeing the law and common reason will inform every man , that the king and state will never be at the cost and trouble to send for traytors and witnesses out of ireland to try them here , but upon a most just occasion and urgent necessity , to prevent either a faiter or delay of justice in case of horrid treasons and rebellions ; and no irish peer who hath any loyalty in his heart , or reason in his head , will deem it a dishonor , or prejudice to the whole irish peerage in general , or the trayterous peers sent hither to be tryed in particular , to be outed of a tryal by irish peers in such cases of necessity , and expediency only ; it being better and safer for this realm and ireland too , that these native irish peers , who have been proved to break out into actual rebellion in all ages ( as this prisoners ancestors have done as much or more than any , his * grandfather being the first man that broke forth in tyrones rebellion ) should be subject to tryals for the same by ordinary english juries here , and outed of their peerage , then that such arch-traytors and rebels as the prisoner and his confederates are , ( guilty of the effusion of many thousands of protestants and english mens bloods ) should escape uncondemned , or be executed by martial law . and our law in this case , which concerns the safety of kingdoms at once , will rather suffer a particular mischief , especially to rebellious peers , than a general inconvenience to both realms , and all loyal subjects in both . ly . though the tryal of all english and irish peers by a legal indictment , presentment , and jury of their peers alone , and not by martial-law or commissioners themselves alone , be an essential fundamental right and privilege for the securitie of their lives and estates , which our parliaments in all ages have been very curious to preserve , and not to alter ; yet the tryal of peers by peers alone ( not by a jury of other freemen ) for the most part ( if rightly considered ) is rather a meer punctilio of honor , than matter of real privilege or benefit to peers ; and by intendment of law and common experienc , a fair and legal tryal by the oaths of honest , substantial , indifferent english gentlemen or freeholders , to whom the prisoner may take all * sorts of lawfull challenges by law , which shall be allowed , if there be any just cause of suspition of partiality , injustice , consanguinity , &c. besides his peremptory challenge of jurors without cause ( which challenges * cook affirms , shall not be admitted or granted in case of tryal by peers ) it being the usual antient a tryal in all cases between the king and ordinary subjects , between man and man , peers and commoners , both in all civil and criminal causes whatsoever , it is and will be every way as just , as beneficial to a peer in point of law as a tryal by twelve peers , upon their honours only , b without oath . and the exchange only of the form of tryal , by twelve indifferent english gentlemen of quallity , upon their oaths , for twelve irish peers of english blood , nominated and appointed only by the king , or his c lord deputy of ireland , upon their honours without oath , in this case of necessity , can be no injustice , injury , or prejudice to the irish peers in general , nor yet to the prisoner in particular : the rather , if we consider , first , that every indictment by which an english or irish peer is or can be tryed , must first be proved before a grand jury of commons ( as this very statute prescribes ) and found by them upon oath , not by a jurie of peers : which is a kind of preparatory trial of a peer by jury , without which there can be no proper tryal by peers , as is resolved cooks institutes , p. , , , . & h . . ly . that in cases of appeal brought by a common person ●or murder , rape , robberie , or the like , and likewise in case of a premunire against an english peer , where his life is not brought into question ; he shall not be tried by his peers , but by an ordinary jury as other men ; trial of peers by peers being onlie in cases of indictments for treasons or felonies at the kings sute , and no other , as is clear by the statute of magna charta , c. . neither will we pass upon him , or condemn him , without the lawfull judgement of his peers , &c. the words onlie of the king not of the commons ; in this our books are express in point , all cited in sir edw. cooks institutes on this verie chapter of magna charta cap. . in his pleas of the crown , or instit. c. . p. , . & ed. . . b. now this case in question concerning not onlie the king , but the whole kingdome of england and ireland , and those manie thousands of common persons whose innocent blood hath been , shed in ireland by him and his confederate rebels crying out for vengeance and justice against him without delay ; he may thereupon be justly tried by an ordinary jurie of commons , as well as in case of an appeal of murder brought by a common person . ly . peers of parliament , even of this realm , not by inherent nobility and birth right , but only in right of their baronies , which they hold in auter droit , as arch-bishops , bishops , abbots , priors and the like , shall not be tried by their peers for treasons or felonies at the kings sute , but onlie by an ordinary jurie , as archbishop scroope of york , cramner arch-bishop of canterbury , * adam de orlton or tarlton bishop of hereford , mark bishop of carlile , fisher bishop of rochester , and others were tried ed. . f. . kelwaies reports , f. . stamfords pleas of the crown , f. . cromptons jurisdiction of courts , f. . . hall● chron , h. . f. . coo. instit. f. . now if these verie english peers to whom magna charta was immediatelie granted by name of arch-bishops , bishops , abbots , ( being the first persons mentioned in the prologue and ch. . & of this charter , ) shall be outed of their peerage , in these cases of indictment at the kings sute , though within the very letter of magna charta , because they are no peers of england by blood or birth-right , but in right of their churches , then a fortiori irish peers shall be deprived of their peerage by this special act , who are not within the letter or intent of magna charta , never made for them , but for english noble blood . and if it be neither injustice , nor injurie , nor inconvenience , to deprive these ecclesiastical english peers of a trial by peers in cases of treason or felony at the kings sute though within the letter of magna charta , and to try them by an indifferent jurie of freeholders ; it cannot be reputed any injustice , injury , rejudice , or inconvenience at all now to out this irish peer of his peerage here , where he is no native peer , for such an horrid treason as this . ly . irish peers are no peers at all in england , upon which account and reason if they commit treason herein they shall be tried by an ordinarie jury ; therefore to try them onlie by freeholders , no● by peers in england , can be no injurie nor dishonour to their peerage , unless it were in ireland where they are peers ; and yet have been seldome or never hitherto tried there by their peers , as i have proved . ly . the verie statutes of ireland it self made by the peers and commons thereof to prevent manie mischiefs by theeves , murderers , and rebells in that realm , do deprive both the lords & commons there of any legal trial at all both for their lives and estates too , witness the statutes of h. . c. . & e. . c. . & expose them to the judgement , slaughter , plunder of particular men in some cases , authorizing all manner of men that find any theeves robbing , breaking up houses , by day or night , or going or comming to rob or steal , having no faithfull man of good name and fame in their company , in english apparel , to take and kill those * theeves , and cut off their heads , ( without endictment or jury ) and seise their goods , without any impeachment of the king , his heirs , officers , or any other , for which they are to receive a sum of mony from every plow-land , and person of estate within the barony where they shall slay and behead such theeves . and h. . c. & . if any english men shall have any hair or beard upon his upper lip like the irish , it shall be lawfull for every man to take their goods , as irish enemies , and to ransome them as enemies ; and if any irish enemy received to the kings allegiance shall afterwards rob , spoyl , and destroy the kings liege people , it shall be lawfull for every liege-man that may meet with him afterwards , to do with him , and his goods and chattels as to enemies who were never liege , and to ransome them at their free will , without any impeachment of the law . and ch. . if any men , except knights & prelates shall wear gilded bridle , pestrels , or other harneys , that it shall be lawfull to every man that will , to take the said man his horse and harnesse , and to possess the same as his own goods , without endictment or legal tryal . all which would be monstrous in england . therfore it is much more legal and just , and no injurie at all to try the prisoner , an arch-rebel in england , in this time of war and combustion in ireland , for his treasons there perpetrated , by an indifferent , honest , lawfull english jury , upon an endictment found by the grand inquest , than thus to kill , behead such malefactors in ireland , and seise both them and their goods as enemies , and ransome them at pleasure without tryal , jury , or endictment , and not only to indemnifie but reward those that do it , by laws there made by the english , and irish themselves : which will answer all objections , and wipe off the least shadow of injustice in this case , and tryal . the third objection is this , that if irish peers had been within this law , there being so many rebellions in ireland since its enacting , we should have had some presidents of irish peers here tried by jurie , ere this ; but there is no such president extant ; therefore certainlie irish peers for treasons perpetrated in ireland are out of this act . to this i answer , . that no irish peers have been tried by their peers in ireland for treasons since this act ; ergo they are within i● . . that this argument is merely fallacious and non concludant : for the reason why no irish peers have been tried here since this law by vertue of it , is not because they were not deemed within it , but for other reasons . . because most of the irish peers ▪ who have been in actual rebellion since this law , were * either actually slain in the wars , or fled the kingdom , or else were received into grace , and pardoned before tryal upon their submissions ; or else attainted and executed by act of parliament , or by martial-law in ireland . and by these means onlie avoided their trials here . ly . because some irish rebels , as great as magwire , or anie of their peers in power and estate , have been heretofore tried and executed for treason in england by vertue of this law ; though brought over hither from ireland against their wills ; as orourke and sir john parrot of old , and mac-mahon the last term ▪ and the tryals of these three here are direct presidents in point , and good warrant by this very act for the tryal also of this irish peer , as i have proved . ly . this statute is not very antient , yet still in as full force as ever , and if this be the first president of an irish peer that came judicially in question here in england , to be tryed upon it since its making , it is no argument he is out of this law , but rather an inducement to make him a leading president to those rebellious peers of that nation , who have been the ring-leaders of the ordinary commons there in this grand rebellion , there being no president , judgement , nor foild season against it ; yea ●ome judgements in case of irish commons , and many unanswerable reasons for it . the fourth objection is , the opinion of the book in dyer , f. . ●● . forecited , recited in cromptons jurisdiction of courts , f. . a. and mr. st. johns argument at law at straffords attainder , p. . that an irish peer cannot be tryed here in england for treason done in ireland , neither by his peers , nor by a jury , because he is no subject of england . to this i have * already given an answer , and shall here only adde . . that the only reason given in the book hath been since several times adjudged to be no reason at all nor law , by all the judges of england , a subject of ireland being a * subject to the king of england in all places , as is adjudged in calvins case , and that wrey disclaimed any such opinion delivered by him as is there reported . therefore the reason of this opinion being adjudged erroneous and no law , the opinion it self grounded on it , must needs be so too . the rather , because the opinion there cited was upon a case casually put and moved out of court by way of discourse , without study or argument , and suddenly delivered only by dyer and gerrard ( since wrey disclaimed it ) but not given upon any cause actually depending or debated and argued in court . ly . that it is a full authority for me , both because it determines , there can be no tryal of an irish peer by his peers in england but only by a jury ; and that in ireland it self , peers are not used to be tryed by peers , but attainted by act of parliament ; therefore an authority point-blank against the prisoners plea . the th objection is orourks case ; which in judge andersons own book of reports , is put thus , whether orourk an irish subject ( and no peer nor baron of ireland ) might be tryed by this act here in england , for treasons committed in ireland ? which words ( nient esteant , un peer ou baron de ireland ) in the putting of the case seems to intimate , that in that case the opinion of the judges was , that an irish peer was not within this act . to which i shall return this brief answer , that this clause , not being a peer or baron in ireland , in the putting of that case , was only a description of the quality of his person , he being no peer or baron of that realm , not any point in or part of the case , there being not one syllable in the whole debate or argument of it , by way of admission or otherwise , that an irish peer was not within this act ; and in this very case the judges resolved the book in dyer to be no law , and wrey disclaimed any such opinion of his therein reported , as sir edward cooks institutes on littleton , fol. . b. records . the th . objection is this , ( intimated in an order of the lords house ) that this may much concern the peers of england ; for this law for trying forein treasons is enacted in ireland ; and so by colour of it english peers may be sent over into ireland to be tryed there by a jury of irish commoners , for treasons done in england , as well as irish peers sent thence to be tryed by ordinarie juries here in england for treasons committed in ireland . i answer , . that there is no such law extant in ireland , that i can fi●d , among all their printed statutes , so as this is a vain surmise . but ly . if there were any such law there , yet england being the supreme realm to ireland , may make laws in the parliament here to bind the irish peers and commons , but the parliament in ireland being a * subordinate realm to england , never yet did nor can make any laws at all to bind any english peers or commons for things done in england , ( untill the rebels there shall be able to conquer england , which i hope they never shall ) as we have conquer'd them . therefore we need not fear any such obliging laws of theirs , or the tryal of english peers in ireland . so as this vain fancy is quite out of dores , and the lords themselves upon conference with the commons , have been fully satisfied that this case no waies concerneth the peers of england , whose tryal by their peers is by direct proviso saved to them in this act , and therefore cannot come in question , or be taken from them by pretence of any such law established in ireland ; whereupon they have revensed their order , which seemed to give some colour for this objection . pat. h . . pars . . m. . i find this memorable record . rex , &c. omnibus salutem . cum secundum consuetudinem hactenus in hibernia obtentam , utlagati in regno nostro angliae pro utlagatis in hibernia haberi non consueverunt , & gregorius le somner , ratione utlagariae in ipsum promulgatae in regno nostro angliae●uper captus fuit in hibernia & in angliam reductus & imprisonatus ; nolumus quod fidelibus nostris hiberniae aliquod praejudicium ex hoc in posterum gravetur . in cujus , &c. teste rege apud turrim london . die junii● . if englishmen outlawed in england could not by the law and custome of ireland , be taken upon a c●pias utlagatum in ireland , or reputed as out-lawed persons there , as this patent resolves , much less can they there be tried for any treasons acted in england by colour of this law , nor can our english peers be there tried for treasons here by an irish jury . a seventh objection , which i have heard made by some , is as vain and absurd as the former , that if irish peers be within this act for treasons done in ireland , then by the same reason peers in scotland might be sent for and brought into england , and there tryed by an ordinary jury by vertue of this law , for treasons done in scotland ; which would be a great prejudice to the peers of scotland , and the privileges of that kingdome . i answer , . that this act extends not to any treasons of scots lords or commons committed or acted in scotland , and tryable there , though it reacheth to irish lords and ireland . . because this act was made long before the union betwixt england and scotland , by iac. c. , . iac. c. , iac. c. . & caroli : whiles that scotland was under the absolute and immediate power of its own kings , and not of the kings of england , and so it cannot extend to them . ly . scotland , although the * kings of it have often done homage to the kings of england , in antient times , as their soveraign lords ) was still an absolute independant kingdom in this respect of being subject only to & governed by its own parliaments , and laws . but not subordinate to nor governed by the laws or parliaments of england , which never bound them heretofore , nor now , as they did and do ireland ; their laws and statutes and ours still continuing different . therefore this act neither did nor could bind the scots peers or commons in point of tryal here for treasons committed in scotland , as it binds the irish ( still subject to our laws and parliaments ) for treasons done in ireland . ly . the very acts of pacification between both kingdoms & the solemn league and covenant passed this parl. here & in scotland too , which do specially reserve the tryals of all traytors and delinquents of either kingdom , to the tryal and judicatory only of their own parliaments and realms ) have for ever provided against this vain pretence , and secured not only all scotish peers but commoners too against any tryals here by vertue of this act for treasons done in ireland ; therefore i shall give it no further answer . the last objection i can think of is this , that in every case of treason or felony new made by statute , the lords of parliament in england shall have their tryal by their peers saved , not withstanding the statute provides not for it by express words ; so that provisoes of tryal by their peers inserted into them in such cases , are but idle , and ex abundanti , because it is provided for both by the common law and by magna charta it self , c. . and so was it adjudged in the case of the lord hungerford heretofore , and in the earl of castlehavens case of late for buggery , upon the statute of h. . c. . stamfords pleas of the crown f. , & cromptons iurisdiction of courts f. ● . therefore the tryof irish peers by their peers shall be likewise saved to them within this act , though it be not expressed , as well as the tryal by peers is to english peeers by expresse provisoe . i answer , first , that this rule holds generallie true in all cases of new treasons and felonies where the offences only are made capital , or punishable according to the antient , usual , and ordinarie proceedings of law , and the manner of the tryal of them left at large and not preciselie limited how and by whom they shall be tryed ; as they are in the objected cases upon the statutes of h. . c. . & eliz. cap. . concerning buggery : where the words are , that this vice shall be adjudged felony , and that such order and form of process shall thereupon be used against the offenders , as in cases of felony at the common law , and that the offenders being thereof convicted by verdict , confession , or outlawry , shall suffer pain of death , &c. which words without the least contradiction , stand as well with tryal of peers who are guilty of it by their peers alone , as of commons by a jury , they being both according to the order of our common law , and a verdict by peers is as properlie stiled a verdict in law , as a verdict by jurie , witnesse h. . . and cooks institut . ch. . p. . but in the statute of h. . there is no creation or introduction at all of any new treasons , but only an introduction of a new form and way of tryal for treasons formerly made and declared such , then done , or hereafter to be committed out of this realm , and that new form of tryal precisely limited in all particulars , and especially enacted to be by an ordinary iury , except onlie in case of our english peers ; therfore this statute comes not at all within the objection , because it particularlie defines the place where , the judges before whom , the juries by whom , with the whole form and manner how , such forein treasons shall be tryed , with all other circumstances of the tryal , and expresly prescribes ; that all but english peers indicted for forein treasons , shall be tryed by good and lawfull men of the shire where the kings bench or commissioners sit . therefore to alter this form of tryal precisely prescribed by this statute , by introducing a new tryal by irish peers , is to run quite cross against , and elude , repeal this sta●ute , as i have argued and proved at large . i have now quite done with my argument of this new untroden case , and i hope therein sufficiently manifested , that this plea of the prisoner is invalid , and such as ought to be over-ruled in point of law : and therefore as he hath been sent for over from ireland by the wisdome and justice of our parliament , and by the lords , justices , and councel there transmitted hither to receive a just , and speedy tryal at this bar for his bloody treasons , which there ( in respect of the rebels power , tumults in that realm ) he could not conveniently undergo : so i humbly pray on the behalf of the king , kingdome , parliament , and our whole english nation , to all which he hath been such a capital traytor and enemy , that this plea of his may presently be over-ruled , and himself brought to his speedy tryal , iudgement and execution for his unparallel'd treasons , and the blood of those many thousands of innocent english protestants shed in ireland upon this occasion , which cries for justice and execution against him without further delay . the rather , because nulli differemus justiciam , is one clause of that very act of magna charta , ca. . which he hath pleaded in bar of his tryal , of which i pray both he and the whole kingdom may now enjoy the benefit , by his undelayed tryal and execution too , in case he shall be found guilty of the treasons for which he stands indicted ; of which there is little doubt , since so fully confessed by himself in a writing under his own hand , and we are ready to make them good against him , as we have already done against his confederate mac-mahon , by the testimony of a clowd of honorable pregnant witnesses , in case he shall deny it . after two arguments at the bar on both sides of this case , justice bacon argued it himself , and delivered his opinion and judgement against the prisoners plea : that though he be a baron of ireland , yet he was triable for his treason by a middlesex jury in the kings bench , and outed of his peerage , by h. . c. . which iudgement was approved by this order of both houses of parliament . die lunae febr. . ordered by the lords and commons in parliament assembled , that the said houses do approve of the judgment given by master justice bacon , in over-ruling the plea of the lord magwire , and of the manner of the tryal by the indictment of high treason in the kings bench : and the judge is hereby required to proceed speedily thereupon according to law and iustice . john brown cler. parl. henry elsing cler. parl. d. c. upon which on monday febr. . . he was brought from the tower of london to the kings bench bar , & there arraigned ; where putting himself upon his trial he challenged of the jury which appeared peremptorily ; whereupon a distring as was awarded to the sheriff of middlesex to retorn quadrag●nta tales the next day ; of whom he challenged more peremptorily : and being tryed by twelve of the residue retorned ( against whom he had no legal exception nor challenge ) he was upon his own confessions and pregnant evidence of witnesses ( persons of quality ) found guilty of the treasons , for which he was indicted ; and thereupon febr. . was adjudged tobe drawn to tyburn , and there hanged by the neck , and cut down alive , and then his bowels to be taken out , and there burnt before his face , his head to be cut off , and his body to be divided into four quarters , and then to be disposed as the parliament shall appoint : which was accordingly executed the th . of febr. even so let all such perfidious bloody traytors perish . to fill up the vacant pages of this sheet , i shall annex this one record , and also one irish act , being both very pertinent to my argument . pat. e. . m. . hibernia . venerabili in christo patri eadem gratia midden episcopo , & dilectis & fidelibus suis mauricio filio ▪ mauricii , justiciario suo hibern ▪ et magistro johanni de saumford escaetori suo hibern . salutem . cum de●uncto jam celebris memoriae domino h. rege pa●re nostro ( cujus animae propicietur altissimus ) ad nos regni angliae gubernacu● ▪ et terrae hibern . dominium per●ineant , ob quod praelati ▪ comites , & pro●eres , as communit●s regni nostri nobis tanquam domino suo ligio et regi fidelitat●s juramentum & omnia alia quae nobis rations coronae & dignitatis regiae ab ipsis fieri & praestari nobis , in absentia nostra , poterunt plenariè & sine omissione aliqua prompto & liben●i animo praestiter int : ac archiepiscopi episcopi , abbates , priores , comites , barones , milites , libere tenentes , ac tota communi as terrae nostrae hiberniae nobis tanquam * regi & domino suo ligio consimile sacramentum fidelitatis praest are teneantur . dedimus vobis potestatem recipiendi nomine nostro fidelitatem ipsorum . ita tamen quod si vos omnes interesse nequiveritis , tune duo vel unus ●estrum qui praesens fuerunt nichilominus plenariam habeat potestatem rec●p●endi nomine nostr● fidelitatem ipsorum in forma praedict● . et ideo vobis mandamus quod fidelitatem praedictam nomine nostro recipiatis , prout melius videbitis expedire . in cuju● , &c. dat. per manum w. de merton c●nc . apud westm. vii die decembris . h. . c. . made in ireland . an act that the king and his successors , to be kings of ireland . forasmuch as the king our most gracious dread soveraign lord , & his graces mostnoble progenitors kings of england , have been lords of this land of ireland , having all manner kingly jurisdiction , power , preeminences and authority royal belonging or appertaining to the royal estate and majesty of a king , by the name of lord of ireland , where the kings majestie , and his noble progenitors , justly and rightfully were , and of right ought to be kings of ireland , and so to be reputed , taken , named and called , and for lack of naming the kings majesty and his noble progenitors kings of ireland according to their said true and just title , stile and name , therein hath been great occasion that the irishmen and inhabit ants within this realm of ireland have not been so obedient to the kings highness and his most noble progenitors , and to their laws , as they of right and according to their allegiance and bounden duties ought to have been . wherefore at the humble pursute , petition , and request of the lords spiritual and temporal , and other the kings loving , faithfull and obedient subjects of this land of ireland , and by their full assents , be it enacted , ordained , and esta blished by this present parliament● that the kings highnesse , his heirs and successors kings of england , be alwaies kings of this land of ireland , and that his majesty his heirs and successors , have the name , stile , title and honor of king of this land of ireland , with all manner of honors , preheminences , prerogatives , dignities , and other things whatsoever they be , to the estate , and majesty of a king appertaining or belonging : and that his majesty , his heirs and successors be from henceforth named , called , accepted , reputed and taken to be kings of the land of ireland : to have , hold and enjoy the said stile , title , majesty and honors of the king of ireland , with all manner preheminence , prerogative , dignities , and all other the premises , unto the kings highnesse , his heirs and successors for ever , as united and knit to the imperial crown of england . and be it further enacted by authority aforesaid , that on this side the first day of iuly next comming , proclamation shall be made in all shires within this land of ireland , of the tenour and sentences of this act. and if any person and persons , of what estate , dignitie or condition soever they or he be , subject or resiant within this land of ireland , after the said first day of iuly by writing or imprinting , or by any exteriour act or deed , maliciously procure or do , or cause to be procured or done , any thing or things to the peril of the kings majesties most royal person , or maliciously give occasion by writing , deed , print , or act , whereby the kings majesty his heirs or successors , or any of them might be disturbed or interrupted of the crown of this realm of ireland , or of the name , stile , or title thereof , or by writing , deed , print or act , procure or do , or cause to be procured or done any thing or things to the prejudice , slander , disturbance , or derogation of the kings majesty , his heirs or successors , in ▪ of , or for the crown of this realm of ireland , or in , of , or for the name , title , or stile thereof , whereby his majesty , his heirs or successors , or any of them might be disturbed or interrupted in body , name , stile , or title of inheritance , of , in , or to the crown of this land of ireland , or of the name , stile , title , or dignity of the same ; that then every such person and persons , of what estate , degree or condition they be , subject or restants within the said land of ireland , and their aydors , counsellors , maintainers , and abbetters therein , and every of them , for every such offence , shall be adjudged high traytors , and every such offence shall be adjudged and deemed high treason , and the offendors , their aydors , counsellors , maintainors and abbettors therein , land every of them being lawfully convicted of any such offence by presentment , verdict , confession , or proofs , according to the customs and laws of this said land of ireland , shall suffer pains of death , as in cases of high treason , and also shall lose and forfeit unto the kings highness , and to his heirs kings of this realm of ireland , all ●such his mannors , lands , tenements , rents , reversions , annuities , and hereditaments which they had in possession as owner , and were sole seised of in their own right , of , by , or in any title or means , or in any other person or petsons had to their use of any estate of inheritance at the day of any such treason and offences by them committed and done ▪ and that also every such offendor shall lose and forfeit to the kings highness and to his said heirs ▪ as well all such estates of freehold , and interest for years , of lands and rents , as all the goods ▪ cattels and debts , which they or any of them had at the time of their conviction or attaindour , of or for any such offence : saving alway to every person and persons , and bodies politique , their heirs , successors , and assigns , and to every of them , other than such persons as shall be so convicted or attainted , their heirs and successors , and all other claiming to their use , all such right , title , use , interest , possession , condition , rents , fees , offices , annuities , commons and profits , which they or any of them shall happen to have , in , to , or upon any such mannors , lands ▪ tenements , rents , reversions , services , annuities and hereditaments , which so shall happen to be lost and forfeited by reason and occasion of any of the treasons or offences above rehearsed any time before the said treasons or offences committed or done . finis . errata . page . l. . r. either . p. . l. . r. it , or rather that of pat. . johan . reg. m. . l. . r. statuatur . l. . dele de p. l. . & . c. . r. . p. . l. should come in l. . before authorizing . p. . l. . r. peytr●ls . p. . l. , ireland r. scotland . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- a an exact collection , p. . b see straffords impeachment & tryal . * stamf. l. . c. . . h. . f. . c cooks instit. c. . * stamf. l. . c. . d cooks th●●● . p. . stamf. pleas of the crown l. . c. . h. . f. . h. . f. . brook chal , , . * page to . to , , , , , . e ror. . pat. an. . iohan. reg. m. . n. . k hoveden , annal. pars post . p. , , . giraldus cambrensis , hybernia expugnata , l. . & . chron. johan . bromton , col . , , . mat. westm. & mat. paris , an. , . & others l typographia hybernia , c. , , . m hybernia expugnata , l. . c. . p. . n hybernia expug . c. . o hist. ang. edit. lond. . p. . p hybern . expug . l. . c. . q mat. paris h●st. a●gl . p. . h●n . de k●yghton de event . angl. l. . c. . col . . r sir iohn davis his irish reports , p. , . ſ stamfords plees of the corone , l. . c. . to . cooks instit. p. . to . instit. c. , . brook , fitzh. statham , ash ▪ ●ir . coron . trial , treason . t see sir walter rawlegh his preface to the history of the world , d. beards theatre of gods iudgements on the th . commandement . u see lyra , tostatus , lavater , polanus , maldonat , cornelius a lapide junius , and otherson these texts . x a declaration of the armies engagements , &c. p. , . , . * see here p. . crooks . rep. m. car. p. , . * claus e. . m. . de erroribus corrigendis in parliamentis tenendis in hibernia . * see pat. . johan . regis , m. , . pat. . iohan. reg. m. . n. . nota. * see e. . c. . e. . stat. . e. . c . claus. . e. . part . m. . r. . n. . r. . n. . claus. e. . part . dors . . * a new discovery of the prelates tyranny , p. ● . , . notes for div a e- the case and plea of the lord magwire . what not in question . * see e. . c. . in ireland . the question the act of h. . c. . question . * see the statutes of ireland , e. . c. . h. . c. , . h. . c. , . h. . c. . e. . c. . e. . c. . e. . c. . h. . c. , , , , , , . h. . c. , , , . phil. & mar. c. . eliz. c. , . eliz. c. . eliz. c. , . jac. c. . and the annals of ireland . * see mr. st. iohns argument against strafford , p. , . quest . d . * see cooks instit. p. . * acts . , . rom. . . eph. . . col. . . pet. . . * see h. . c. , , , h. . c. . h. . c. , , . eliz. cap. . , , , , . eliz. c. , , . eliz. c. . , eliz. c. . , & phil. & mar. c. . eliz. c. . * see cooks instit. p. . * see h ● c. . e. . c. . * h . . co. . rep. calvins case , f. , , . cooks instit. . p. mr. st. johns argument at law at straffords attainder , p. , . * mat. parls an. . mr. cambdens ireland p. . to . the annals of ireland in mr. camb. britan. p. , , , , , , , , , , , , , , to . * see e. . rot . parl. n. , , . e. . n. . e. . parl. . n. . r. . n. . r. . n. . see p. ● . * upon which ground writs of error lie in the kings bench in england , to reverse erroneous judgments in the courts and parliaments of ireland , cooks inst. p. . mr. st. johns arment at law against strafford , p. , . * dr. jones others printed relations concerning the irish rebellion . quest . d. * see dyer f. . , , . cooks ● rep. f. . rep. f. . * h. . br alienation . e. . br. alienation , & . * seldens tit. of hon. p. , , . * cap. . see cooks inst. p. , . * page to . * see my plea for the lords and house of peers . p. , to . where this is largely proved , & p. . * instit. f. . * el. c. . ▪ * par. h. . m. . * king hen. being then a minor and under his regiment . * mat. paris hist. angl. p. . * claus. h. . pars . m. . * rot. pat. h. . m. . sir iohn davis irish rep. p. . cooks instit. p. . instit. f. . b. mr. st. iohns argument at straffords attainder . p. . * nota. * mr. st. iohns argument at straffords attainder , p. , . here p. . * rot. pat . e. . in cancel . hiberniae ; mr. seldens titles of honor . booke . c. . 〈…〉 . * pat. h. . pars . decemb. * titles of honor , book . c. , . object . . answ . * here p. , , . * here p. ▪ * here p. , , . * see cook ibid. * co. instit. proem. * page . object . answ . * see horns m●r●our of justices , p. , . * see an exact abrigement of the records p. , , . object . . argument . answer . * see an exact abridgement p. , . cooks instit. p. , . * cambdens ireland , p. , , , . * see stamf. l. . c. . h. . . brook challenge . fitzh. stathams and brooks abridgements , and ashes table , title challenge , * cooks institutes , p. . a see fitzh. brook , ash . title jurors , tryal , enquest . b h. . . h. . . & h. . , . brook treason , . e. , . cooks inst. p. , . inst. p. . c eliz. c. . & . * godwins catalogue of bishops , p. , , , . * though peers . object . . * see the annals of ireland , and mr. camb. in ireland , p. to . object . . * here p. , . answer . * see here p. , to . object . . answ . object . . answer . * see crokes rep. p. , . object . . answer . * see hov. p. , , . walsingham . hist. angl. p. to . mat. paris hist. ang. p. , , , , e. . ro● . claus. dors . . claus. e. . dors . . scedula claus. e. . dots . . claus. e. . dors . . * jac. c. . lac . c. . lac . . object . . answ . notes for div a e- * not ● . the star . of ireland , prin-dublin . p. . the arraignment and conviction of sr vvalter rawleigh, at the kings bench-barre at winchester. on the . of november. . before the right honorable the earle of suffolke, lord chamberline, the earle of devon-shire, lord henry howard, lord cecill, lord wotton, sir john stanhope lord chiefe justice of the common-pleas, popham and andrewes, justice gaudy, justice warberton, sir william wade, commissioners. / coppied by sir tho: overbury. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing a ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) the arraignment and conviction of sr vvalter rawleigh, at the kings bench-barre at winchester. on the . of november. . before the right honorable the earle of suffolke, lord chamberline, the earle of devon-shire, lord henry howard, lord cecill, lord wotton, sir john stanhope lord chiefe justice of the common-pleas, popham and andrewes, justice gaudy, justice warberton, sir william wade, commissioners. / coppied by sir tho: overbury. raleigh, walter, sir, ?- . overbury, thomas, sir, d. . [ ], p. printed by william wilson, for abel roper at the sun over against st. dunstons church in fleetstreet, london : anno dom. . annotation on thomason copy: "aprill: th.". reproduction of the original in the british library. proceedings against sir walter rawleigh knight, at the kings bench-barre, in westminster, the . of october, -- sir walter rawleigh's lettet [sic] to the king the night before his death -- a copy of sir walter rawleighs letter to his wife, the night before his death. eng raleigh, walter, -- sir, ?- -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . a r (wing a ). civilwar no the arraignment and conviction of sr vvalter rawleigh, at the kings bench-barre at winchester. on the . of november. . before the righ raleigh, walter, sir b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - allison liefer sampled and proofread - allison liefer text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the arraignment and conviction of sr walter rawleigh , at the kings bench-barre at winchester . on the . of november . . before the right honorable the earle of suffolke , lord chamberline , the earle of devonshire , lord henry howard , lord cecill , lord wotton , sir iohn stanhope lord chiefe justice of the common-pleas , popham and andrewes , justice gaudy , justice warberton , sir william wade , commissioners . coppied by sir tho: overbvry . london , printed by william wilson , for abel roper at the sun over against st. dunstons church in fleetstreet . anno dom. . the arraignement and conviction of sir walter rawleigh , at the kings bench barre at winchester . novemb. . after that sir walter rawleigh was brought to the barre , hee sate upon a stoole within a place made of purpose for the prisoner to be in , and expected the comming of the lords : during which time he saluted divers of his acquaintance with a very steadfast and chearefull countenance . when the commissioners were all assembled , having stood up a while hee desired the marshall to aske leave of the lords that hee might sit , which was presently granted . then the court proceeded in his arraignment according to the ordinary course ; unto which sir walter did orderly and willingly dispose himselfe : as the jury was culled to the booke , he was asked whether hee would challenge any of the gentlemen impanelled for his jury , hee said hee knew none of them , but hoped they were honest men , and so desired the court to take their choyce of them . the jury being sworne , who were sir ralph conisbie , sir thomas fowler , sir edward peacock , sir william rowe knights . henry goodier , roger vvood , thomas vvalker , thomas vvhitby esquiers . thomas higate , robert kempton , iohn chawkie , robert brumley gentlemen . the inditement was red by the clearke of the crowne office , the effect whereof was as followeth . that he did conspire and goe about to deprive the king of his government , and to raise up sedition within the realme , to alter religion , and to bring in the romish superstition , and to procure forraigne enemies to invade the kingdomes . that the lord cobham , the ninth of june last , did meet with the said sir walter rawleigh : cobham was then in durham house in the parish of st. martins in the fields , and then and there had conference with him how to advance arabella steward to the crowne and royall throne of this kingdome , and that then and there it was agreed ; that cobham should treate with aremberge , ambassadour from the archduke of austria , to obtaine of him , thousand crownes to bring to passe their intended treasons : it was agreed that cobham should go to albert the archduke , to procure him to advance the pretended title of arabella , from thence knowing that albert had not sufficient meanes to maintaine his owne army in the lowcountreys : cobham should go into spaine to procure the king to assist and surther her pretended title . it was also agreed the better to effect all these conspiracies that arabella should write three letters , one to the archduke , another to the king of spaine , and another to the duke of savoy , and promising three things ; first , to establish firme peace betwixt england and spaine ; secondly , to tolerate the romish and popish superstition ; thirdly , to be ruled by them for the contriving of the marriage , and for the effecting of these trayterous purposes , cobham should returne by the isle of jersey , and should find sir vvalter rawleigh captaine of the said isle of jersey there , and take counsell of him for the distributing of the foresaid crownes as the occasions and discontentment of the subjects should give cause and way : and further that cobham and his brother brooke did meete on the ninth of june last , and cobham told brooke all the treasons , to which treasons brooke gave his assent , and did joyne himselfe to all these : and after on the thursday following cobham and brook did trayterously speake these words . that there would never be a good world in england , till the king and his cubs ( meaning his royall issue ) were taken away , and the more to disable and deprive the king of his crowne , and to confirme the said cobham in his intents , rawleigh did trayterously publish a booke falsely written against the most just and royall title of the king , knowing the said book to be written against the king , which book cobham afterwards received of him ; and further for the better effecting of these trayterous purposes , and to establish the said brook in his intents , cobham did deliver the said booke to him on the fourteenth of june , and on the sixteenth of june for the accomplishment of the said conference and by the trayterous instigations of rawleigh , did move brook to incite arabella to write to the three foresaid princes to procure them to advance her title , & that she , after that she had obtained the crowne , should performe three things , viz. to establish a firme peace betwixt england and spaine ; secondly , to tolerate the popish religion with impunitie ; thirdly , to be ruled by them three in the contracting of marriage by their assent : and for the better effecting of these treasons cobham upon the . of june by the instigation of rawleigh did write letters to count aremberge and delivered the said letters to one mathew de lawrencie , who delivered them to the count for the attaining of . crownes , which money by other letters aremberge did promise to performe payment of , and those letters cobham did receive on the . of june , then did cobham promise rawleigh that when hee should have received that money , he would deliver . crownes to him , to which motion he did consent . and afterwards cobham offered brooke , that when he should have received that money , hee would give . crownes thereof to him , to which motion brooke did assent . master serjeant heale opened the matter , and delivered the effect of the inditement ; in whose speech this was observed , that he charged sir walter to have intended the intitling of the lady arabella steward to the crowne , who he said had no more title thereunto than he had himselfe , and further said after a little pause , that hee for his owne part did disclaime and renounce all title thereunto . whereat sir walter rawleigh smiled . the serjeant concluding mr. atturney cooke began , and with a long disourse amplified ( with vehement words and actions ) the severall treasons whereof sr walter stood indited , wherein hee so farre moved sir walter that hee many times offered to make answer for himselfe before the court would give him leave ; protesting mr atturney told him newes hee never heard of before , and that his memory ( by reason of his sicknesse ) was so feeble that he could not remember so many circumstances as mr. atturney tired him withall ; but mr. atturney pressed the lords that the kings evidence ought not to be broken , or dismembred , whereby it might loose much of its grace and vigor : notwithstanding it was yeelded , when m. atturney came to his proofe , sir walter rawleigh should have leave to answer his severall points as they were objected : in mr. atturney divers things were observed which were said and used in his narration or evidence . some captiously noted that hee said this treason did tend not onely to the overthrow of true religion and destruction of all our soules , but even to the losse of our goods , lands , and lives : but it seemeth hee meant reciprocally : others thought him full of impertinent phrases and complements , and specially when hee spake of the kings issue or of the lords , after hee said hee would say nothing of them , then hee would presently fall into grosse and palpable adulation of them to their faces : but in their commendations he spake nothing but truth : some noted his care and diligence in delivering to the people that the king said he would loose lands , crowne , & life before he would suffer a tolleration or alterration in religion ; and that to these traytors ( for cobham and gray were upon the bye ) he had done nothing rigorously , nothing unnaturally : nothing precipitatly , not rigorously , because no torture used : not unnaturally , because the brother was not pressed ( further then he would ) to accuse his brother : not precipitatly because of the long time his gracious majesty had promised before hee would bring them to their arraignment : this was much to the satisfaction of the people , but this he was commanded to deliver : all the assembly could have wished that hee had not behaved himselfe so violently and bitterly , nor used so great provocation to the prisoner : which the better sort imputed to his zeale in the kings service , and to the passion which overwhelmed him in the cause of his countrey : as when he brake forth into these and the like speeches : this horrible and detestible traytor , this maine traytor ( for the rest were upon the bye ) this instigator and seducer to treasons , he that hath a spanish heart , you are an odious man , see with what a whorish forehead he defends his faults : this is he that would take away the king and his cubbs , o abominable traytor : but many that prejudicate of mr. atturneys nature would hardly bee perswaded but those speeches proceeded out of the insolency of his owne disposition given to tryumph upon poore delinquents , and men in misery , honest men have reason to thinke the best : and as the atturney was noted , so was the carriage of rawleigh most remarkable , first to the lords ( principally to my lord cecill ) humble , yet not prostrate ; dutifull , yet not dejected , for in some cases he would humblie thanke them for gratious speeches , in other acknowledge that their honours said true , as in relating some circumstances : and in such points wherin he would not yeeld unto them , he would crave pardon , and with reverence urge them , and answer them , as in points of law , or essentiall matters of fact ; towards the jurie affible , but not fawning , not in dispaire nor beleeving , but hoping in them carefully perswading them with reasons , not distemperately importuning them with conjurations ; rather shewing love of life then feare of death . towards the kings councell patient , but not insensibly neglecting , not yeelding to imputations layd against him in words , and it was wondred that a man of his heroick spirit could be so valiant in suffering , that he was never overtaken in passion : but when it was insinuated that it was said that it would never bee well till the king and his cubbs were taken away , hee said that mr. atturney used him basely , barbarously , and rigorously , and that hee was abase slave and a wretch that spake the words , but hee received comfort in these base words of mr. atturney for he hoped that it should be the worst he should be able to doe against him . the accusation may be said to be of two parts , viz. personall against the king , and publikely against the state and quiet of the realme . both high treason , the personall treason was of two sorts . the first a conspiracy against the kings life : the second a practise to disable the kings title to the crowne of england . to prove that rawleigh intended the kings death , the confession of george brooke was enforced , who said that his brother my lord cobham told him that he and my lord gray were but upon the bye , but the said cobham and sir vvalter rawleigh were upon the maine for it , and should never be well till the king and his cubbs were taken away . and further said that he thought in his conscience that the said speech of the kings cubbs proceeded from rawleigh . and it was further declared , that the confession of george brooke was enforced , and not voluntarily made , untill sir griffin markham , and watson the priest had vouched him for the knowledge of some farther purpose , than the surprizing of the king . to this sir walter answered that george brook would say anything of him , but he thanked god he never spake with him ; for if he had spoken but five words he perceived that it had been enough . then my lord cecil said that indeed he thought that george brook had a spleen to sir walter , but his brother my lord cobham and he were good friends , and therefore he could not tell whither he hated rawleigh so much as to do his brother so great a displeasure , and said , that my lord cobham might if he did practice ( as himselfe confessed ) with spaine , give sir walters name in to credit him withall , as a man that favoured him , and on whom he did presume more than he had reason . to prove that rawleigh practised to scandalize his majesties title to the crowne . my lord cobhams confession was produced , that sir walter delivered him a booke concerning the kings title , but told him withall , that it was a very foolish book which he delivered to his brother george to consider of , and george brook confessed that his brother gave him such a book , whereof he read onely the titles of the chapters , containing matter against the kings title and line . and it was not omitted by the attourney , that this booke was delivered upon occasion of my lord cobhams discontentment . rawleigh confessed that he had such a booke which he never read , but it was intitled , a defence of the queenes proceedings against mary queene of scotland , and constantly denyed that he delivered it to my lord cobham , but that my lord cobham tooke it out of his study ( if he had any such of his ) without his knowledge , he protested : here my lord henry howard signified that my lord cobham was asked in his examination whither sir vvalter gave him the booke , or that he took the same ? and he said that sir walter gave it him : but that since he had told some ( who were againe with him ) that whereas he had said that sir walter gave him the booke , the truth was he took the same of himselfe out of his study when he was asleepe . then my lord cecil asked sir walter , where he had the book ; and he said he tooke it out of my late lord treasurer burleighs study after he was dead . my lord cecil desired to know whither out of that which was left to him or to his brother ? and he said out of that which was in my lord treasurers house in the strand . whereupon my lord cecil published , that after his fathers death , sir vvalter desired to search for some cosmographycall descriptions of the west-indies which he thought werein his study , and were not to be had in print , which he granted , and said he would as soon have trusted sir walter as any man : though since ( for some infirmities of sir vvalters ) the bonds of his affection had been crackt , & yet reserving his duty to the king his master ( which he could not despence withall in his service ) hee swore by god he loved him , and found a great conflict in himselfe , in that so compleat a member in a common-wealth was fallen away . but he must needs say that sir vvalter used him discourteously to take the book away and not to acquaint him therewith : neverthelesse he said he need not to make any apology in the behalfe of his father , considering how usuall and necessary a thing it is for councellors and those in his place to intercept and keep all such kinde of writings , for whosoever should now search his study ( or at least his cabinet ) should like enough finde all the famous libells that ever were made against the queene that dead is : and shall also finde divers made against the king our soveraigne lord that now is , since his coming to the crowne : sir vvalter said that the book was a manuscript , and had noted in the beginning with my lord treasurers owne hand , this is the book of one rob. snag , and affirmed that as my l. cecil had said , he thought a man might finde also in his house all the libells that had been made against the late queene : but m. attourney said that he was no privy councellor , nor he hoped never should be : my lord cecil answered that he indeed was no councellor of state , yet he had been often called to consultation : sir vvalter thought it a very severe interpretation of the law to bring him within the compasse of treason onely for this book written so long agone as it was , whereof no man had read more than the titles of the chapters : and which was burned by george brook without his privity ; admitting that he had delivered it to my lord cobham , not advancing , nor approving the same , but discommending it , as cobhams first confession was ; and he put this case , if he should come to my lord cecil ( as oft he had done ) and finde a searcher with him with a packet of libells , and my lord let him have one or two to peruse , this he hoped was no treason . to prove this treason against the state and common-weale my lord cobhams confessions were read to this effect . that it was agreed between sir vvalter rawleigh and him that my lord cobham should deale with count aremberg to procure six hundred thousand crownes , that count aremberge did promise to satisfie his request , to the intent to advance the title of arabella : and that it was likewise concluded that cobham should ( under pretence of travelling ) goe into the low-countries , into france , and spaine , and carry three letters from the lady arabella to the arch-duke , to the duke of savoy and to the king of spaine to obtaine the said summe of crownes , and thereby to promise three things unto the princes . first that there should be a peace concluded with spaine . secondly , that there should be a toleration of religion in england . lastly that she would not marry but by the direction of the said princes . and that she should come back by iersey , and there he should meet with sir vvalter rawleigh and then they would agree how to dispose the mony to discontented persons ( whereof he thought he should finde many at his returne ) and that sir vvalter should have a great number of crownes from the said count aremberge , and that sir vvalter thought that the best course to trouble england was to cause division in scotland : and my l. cobham further accused sir walter , to have b in the only instigator of him to all these treasons . and one mat. de lawrencie , a merchant of antwerp that was used between count aremberge , and my l. cobham , confessed that sir walter rawleigh supped with my lord cobham one night when he came to my lord cobhams house , and that they three went alone to sir walter rawleighs house in the strand by water , and that the said mathew de lawrencie delivered a letter to my lord cobham from count aremberge at durham-house , and immediately sir walter went up with my lord cobham into his chamber , and mathew de lawrencie tarried below : sir walter confessed that he knew very well , that mathew de lawrencie held intelligence betweene count aremberg , and my lord cobham , and so did the lords of the councell know , that it had been so these seaven yeares by licence of the queene : but that he knew to what purpose it was now of late he denied , other then he took it to have been concerning the businesse of the peace with spaine , for that my lord cobham said that his brother george brook was very loath to accuse him , sir walter proceeded , and asked , whither my lord cobham had accused him or confessed any such thing . it was answered that my lord cobham had been asked whither he had spoken any such thing concerning his said brothers unwillingnesse , and he would make no other answer but that he had : however he said it proceeded out of a discontented minde from the said george brook , which m. attourney said was a confession of their pretence in law . then sir vvalter rawleigh , said that if my lord cobham had accused him as they alledged , he ought to renew his accusation to his face , that so he might not be massacred by heersay , and affirmed it was sir nicolas throgmortons case . there was further urged against sir vvalter for intending to make away the king the testimony of one that had been lately at sea , who was in the court in a blew cassock and deposed . that being at lisbone not long after the coming in of the king into england , a portugall gentleman asked him whence he was , and said of of england : then he asked whither our king were crowned or not , and he answered he hoped so by this time , whereupon the portugall said that my lord cobham and and sir vvalter rawleigh would make him away before it were long , sir vvalter made light of this rumour and of the witnesse , and said that he thought it might be so ; for that my lord cobham knowing that he had written a book and presented it to the king , to move his minde not to make his peace with spaine , hearing him one day at his table dispute very violently against the peace , told him in his gallery presently after , he need not be so much against the peaces , for he should have seven thousand crownes to labour for it , and that he thought it to be a toye nor knew how to deserve it , yet his answer was let me see the mony , and then i will answer you to the purpose . and my lord cobham told him further , that he would offer a great summe of mony to my lord cecill and to my lord of northumberland to the same end , but he disswaded him from it , and told him , they would hate him as long as they live for it . and sir vvalter said further , that the occasion of my lord cobhams accusation was this viz. when as sir walter perceived by the lords that they had the said mathew de lawrencie in jealousie to do some bad offices between count aremberge and my lord cobham ( who as he thought was justly condemned upon these advertisements ) that he observed my lord cobham that night ( when my lord cobham brought him home to his house ) to go back past his owne stayres towards his countesses lodgings , with the said mathew de lawrencie , as if he had been very sorry to have parted with him . then he writ to my lord cecil to signifie to him that in his judgement if he apprehended mathew de lawrencie presently , it might be a means that he might intercept their intelligence ( perhaps not yet ripe ) and if otherwise mat. de lawrencie might perchance be shuffled away , and so left it to his lordships consideration : and afterwards my lord cobham had constantly denied these matters upon his examination , this letter was shewed unto him as though sir walter had induced him to all the inconveniences he had fallen into , which after he had read , he desired to read it againe . and upon assurance it was sir walters letter , in a great passion he brake forth into these speeches ; oh villaine ! oh vile traytor ! hath he used me thus ? nay then i will tell you all , and thereupon in madnesse and perswasion of the wrong that sir walter had done him , he delivered the right accusation , the substance whereof was not denied , though m. attourney noted that he considered of a second time before he entred into passion , sir walter appealed to all that knew my lord cobham , that he was as passionate a man as lived , and said , that in his choller he had accused his friends of greater matters than these , and had been sorry for it afterwards . the kings councel replyed that the confession of george brook of the foresaid speeches of my lord cobham touching himselfe , and sir walter , for a further plot than they two by any way could excuse , must stand good in law , in that those speeches were uttered ( as it appeared ) before those matters came out , and before my lord cobham had conceived the spleene against sir walter upon the sight of this letter . and further produced my lord cobhams confession . that sir walter after his first being before the lords , did write unto him the said cobham , that he had been examined of many things concerning him , but he had cleared him in all : now the lords protested that all this while he was not asked one question touching my lord cobham , and therefore the attourney inferred that he writ this out of a fearefull and guilty conscience , to confirme my lord cobham in his deniall , against he should be examined : sir walter hereupon declared that my lord cobham put him in trust to passe the inheritance of certain fee farme lands for him , and gave divers jewells of great value for his security , which were in his bosome at the time of his apprehension , and that my lord cobham had a cabinet worth thirty pound , which master attourney should have had for his favour : and that at his returne from the lords with private restraint to his owne house ; my lord cobhams footman came to him to know what was done in the businesse : and he unwilling to have it knowne that he was restrained , dispatched the footman , saying he would write to his lord , and so did by captain kemish . besides for that which he writ of the said businesse , and acquainted my lord cobham that he had been examined , and that he had cleared his lordship : he did write so in this regard , that though he were not examined of my l. cobham , yet he talking with my lord cecil , and his lordship telling him he was glad there were no more in the action than there appeared , and that he hoped such a one was not in , s. walter said that my lord cobham was absolutely cleer : and my lord cecill replyed he did hope so , and thought no lesse : all which was said in regard my lord cobham was thought to be discontented . but afterwards my lord cecil said , sir vvalter you have kemish against you who carried the letter and toare out that sheet , which concerned the lords of the councell ( for so was my lord cobhams confession ) and he hath been offered the rack for it , but what he has confessed , i as yet know not : answer was made by sir vvilliam vvade , that kemish had confessed he carried a letter , and knew nothing at all of the contents and that indeed he was told that he deserved himselfe to be put to the rack for it : well said sir vvalter the rackkeeper was called for , was he not ? sir vvilliam vvade said , that it was privately reported , that kemish had his masters letter back from my lord cobham , but sir vvalter confessed no such matter . but concerning that he was charged withall , for practising to make a combustion in scotland , he confessed the words of my lord cobhams accusation to this effect , that he thought the best course to trouble england , was to cause sedition in scotland , and said that he had thought so any time these twenty yeeres , and so it had been also held by the wisest men in this kingdome : and he had delivered his opinion to be such divers times to the lords of the councell , and he thought that there were few there but were of his opinion : sir vvalter also offered to the consideration of the iury , that my lord cobham had not subscribed his accusation ; then the lords requested my lord cheife iustice to deliver whether subscriptions were necessary by the law , and my lord chiefe iustice said they were not : nay said sir walter , pardon me my lord , for this , by your lordships favour , i take to be the course of examination in this kinde . after that the examinate hath confessed , and his confession is written , it is all read over againe distinctly and deliberately to him , that he may be sure to say nothing but truth : and then in confirmation that it is undoubtedly true , and that he will stand thereunto , he is to subscribe the same . now my lords , if my l. cobham did accuse me thus rashly out of his passion , and afterwards when he had read it againe , began to relent , and ( with sorrow for the wrong he had done me ) refuse to set his hand thereunto , then i say my lords i have reason to take hold of it : and it is well knowne to you my lord cecil , and my lord of northampton , how he hath recanted his accusation , moreover he hath most penitently sorrowed for this injury he hath done me , and could never be quiet in his conscience till he had purged me . master atturney said , that in my lord cobhams accusation there were many things , that he had recanted , but there was no essentiall point prenominated , which he had recanted : and my lord cecil said , that the reason , that my lord cobham gave , why he would not subscribe , was , because he thought he was priviledged by his degree : wherein he appealed to my lord chiefe justice , who answered that it was a great contempt to refuse to subscribe , but it did not appeare that thereupon he did subscribe . then master atturney delivered that it was sir walters policy to have but one witnesse , because he thought that one witnesse could not condemne him . sir walter thereupon furiously started up , and said to him , master atturney , you must not thinke that all that maketh for me is policy , and all that maketh against me is plain , and god revealeth it . i were well fitted for justice , if you should come to be my judg , what indifferency is there in this my lord chiefe justice ? remember i beseech your lordship the statute of the first of edward the sixth ●ath this that no person shall be condemned of treason unlesse he be accused by two lawfull accusers , and those to be brought before the party , if they belong to england . and remember too the statute of the of the queen . no man shall be arraigned of treason , without the oath of two sufficient and lawfull witnesses brought face to face . my lord chiefe justice said , the statute of the first of edward the sixth , was repealed by the first and second of philip and mary , and reduced all tryall of treason to the course of the common-law . and that the statute of the thirteenth of elizabeth extended to such offences as were mentioned in the said act to be committed against the queene that dead is . and that all was now put to the common-law , and that by the common-law one witnes was sufficient concerning presumption , some of the judges said : that by the law a man might be condemned without a witnesse , onely upon presumption . as if the king ( whom god defend ) should be slaine in his chamber , and one is seene to come forth of the chamber with his sword bloody being drawne , were not this evident both in law and opinion without further inquisition ? and my lord chief justice said that one witnes accusing himself too , was very great testimony ; especially in this case . for it was not to be imagined that my lord cobham would do himselfe so much harme , as to adventure the losse of his honour , lands of so great worth , and his life , for any spleene to sir walter , unlesse the matter were true , and therfore the accusation was very strong against sir walter . note that the treasons against queen elizabeth , which by the statutes of the thirteenth of her raigne were to be proved by the oath of two witnesses , were death or bodily harme intending to death , imagined against her , levying of warres within or without the realme against her , plots to depose or deprive her , publishing her to be a tyrant , heretick , infidell , schismatick , vsurious , &c. sir walter proceeded and urged , that though these statutes lived not , yet he knew very well the reason of these statutes and equity of them lived still . but howsoever i am sure ( said hee ) the law of god liveth for ever . and you shall finde it in deutronomy in the seventeenth chapter . in ore duorum aut trium testium peribit qui intersicitur . nemo occidatur uno contra se dicente testimonium . and in the nineteenth chapter . non stabit unus testis contra aliquem : quicquid illud peccati , et facinoris fuerit . sed in ore duorum aut trium testium stabit omne verbum . divers other places of the old testament are to this purpose , confirmed by our saviour too in the eighteenth of mark , and the eight of iohn , and by saint paul , corinth . , and by the whole consent of the scripture . and if the common-law be as brookes saith ( who was a great lawyer ) then there ought to be two witnesses : for he saith a tryall is by verdict , and by witnesse , wherein my lord chiefe justice said he was deceived . but said he you tell me of one witnesse , let me have him . prove these practises by one witnesse , and i will confesse my selfe guilty to the king in a thousand treasons . i stand not upon the law , i defie the law , if i have done these things i desire not to live : whether they be treasons by the law or no . let me have my accuser brought to my face , and if he will maintaine it to my face , i will confesse my judgement . here my lord chief justice being required to signifie his opinion of the law in this case , he said it was not the law to have the witnesse brought to his face , considering he accused himselfe also : to the which the rest of the judges agreed sir walter replyed , it was not against or contrary to the law : howsoever i do not expect it of duty : and yet i say you should deale very severely with me if you should condemne me and not bring my accuser to my face . remember a story of fortescue a reverend chief justice in this kingdome ; tells of a judge in this kingdome that condemned a woman for murthering her husband , upon the presumption or testimony of one witnesse ( as it seemed ) and after she was burned , a servant of the mans that was slaine ( being executed for the same fault ) confessed that he slew his master himselfe , and that the woman was innocent . what did the judge then say to fortescue , touching the remorse of his conscience for proceeding upon such slender proof , quod nunquam de hoc facto animam in vita sus ipse purgaret . that he could never be at peace of conscience whilest he lived , although he but gave consent upon the verdict of the jury . but my lords for the matter which i desire , remember too the story of susanna : daniel thought the judges fooles because they would condemn a daughter of israel without asking the witnesse a question : why then my lords , let my accuser be brought , and let me aske him a question , and i have done : for it may be it will appeare out of his owne tale , that his accusation cannot be true , or he will be discovered by examination . but yet principally my lords remember what is said in the xix . of deutronomy , si steterit testis mendax contra hominem accusans cum prevaricatione , stabunt ambo , quorum causa est ante dominum , in conspectu sacerdotum , et judicum , qui fuerint in diebus illis . and i will tell you , master atturney , if you condemne me upon bare inferences , and will not bring my accuser to my face : you try me by no law but by the spanish inquisition . if my accuser were dead , or not within the land , it were something . but my accuser lives , and is in the house , and yet you will not bring him to my face . about this time my lord cecil asked him , if he would take issue upon these points upon my lord cobhams testimony : if my lord cobham would now justifie under his hand his accusation , and it might be that he would ( by the advice of the lords ) joyne issue with him , sir vvalter made no direct answer thereunto , but still besought them to bring his accuser to his face . my lord cecil then replyed , sir walter , it cannot be granted you : you have heard your selfe that the law will not dispense with it . it may not be forgotten that before rawleigh had been so importunate to have his accuser brought to his face , he used very probable reasons to the jury to satisfie them , how silly and foolish an enterprise this was , whereof he was accused , and how unlikely a thing it was that he should enter into it . first , said he that i should make choice of my lord cobham of any man living : a man of no following , nor of no force ; that i should dreame of disturbing of the state , now every body was so glad of the kings comming , and of unexpected peace : and now the state was greater , and stronger than ever it was . that i should be so simple to expect mony from spaine : for i knew how much that kings revenue was impared , and his treasure intercepted . i also knew well that where he had usually in his havens , or score sayle of ships , now he had not six or seaven sayle of ships : i knew well too that his jesuites begged from door to door in spaine : and i knew well that the king of spaine was bankrupt , as was protested by most of the merchants of christendome : and could i imagine then that in his poverty he could disburse six or seven hundred thousand crowns ? or if he had been in case , could i thinke it so easy a matter , to obtaine such a sum of mony of the spaniard ? do princes so easily now a dayes part with such masses of mony ? i knew that the queene of england disbursed no mony to the states of the low-countryes ( though it were partly for her owne security ) before she had the brill and flushing in pawne . i knew likewise shee disbursed no mony into france ( though for the like occasion ) till shee had new-haven in pawne , and afterwards more warme security : nay , the citizens of london would not lend their queene money , till they had her lands in pawne . what pawne had we to give the king of spaine ? what did we offer him ? or how could we invent to offer to him the letter of an arabella , whom he could not chuse but know to be of no following , what a mockery is this ? what would i make my selfe ? a cade ? a kett ? a jack-straw ? against these probabilities , the presumptions before alledged , were laid altogether , to fortify my lord cobhams accusation , in the ordering whereof master atturney shewed great wisdome and care in his majesties businesse . and whereas sir walter had urged , that it was not likely the king of spaine would be so easily perswaded to provoke the king of england to a warre , considering his bad fortune in six or seaven enterprises against this state , and what he had lost by warre with england : master atturney said he was so much the more likely to desire revenge , and to entertaine the least hope thereof . but rawleigh answered : all you suspitions , and inferences , are but to fortify my lord cobhams accusation ; my lord cobham is the onely man that doth accuse me . my lord cobham lives and is in the house , let him maintaine his accusation to my face . my lord cobham hath confessed himfelfe guilty , he is meerly at his majesties mercy : and without doubt shall highly offend the king , if he go back from his word , wherein he hath abused his majesty , and so is to looke for no mercy , but shall surely dye . on the other side he hath accused me to instigate and draw him into these treasons , and if it be so , then i have been the overthrow of him , his honour , estate and all . he is a man of a most revengeful nature , as all the world knowes , who would he be more willingly revenged on , then on him vvho hath been his utter overthrovv ? why then my lords if he vvill not displease the king in hope of mercy and compassion ( vvhich is his onely plea ) if he will be revenged on the man that brought him to all this , that hath ruinated him and his house , then will he justifie his accusation to my face , then good my lords let us be brought face to face . my lord of northampton replyed , sir walter you have heard it cannot be granted you , pray importune us no longer . no longer said rawleigh ? it toucheth ( my lord ) upon my life which i value at as high a rate as you do yours . at last sir walter was asked , whither he would say any more . then he directed his speech to the gentlemen of the jury , saying , you have heard the proofs , i pray you consider that these men ( meaning master atturney and the rest of the lawyers ) do usually defend very bad causes every day in the courts against men of their owne profession , as able as themselves : & if they can do so , what may they do with me , that never studied the law till i came into the tower of london : that have been practised in other affaires , and am weake of memory and feeble as you see , for he was faine to have pen and inke to helpe his memory in the long speeches that were made against him . but remember the godly saying of saint augustine , si judicaveritis tanquam jam judicandi estis . if you would be content to be judged upon suspitions and inferences , if you would not have your accusation suscribed by your accuser . if you would not have your accuser brought to your face ( being in the same house too ) where you are arraigned , if you would be condemned by an accusation of one recanted and truly sorrowfull for it , if you in my case would yeeld your bodyes to torture , loose your lives , your wives , and children , and all your fortunes upon so slender proof . then am i ready to suffer all these things . now after master serjeant phillips had made a very long repetion of all the accusation . master atturney asked sir walter againe whither he would say any more . rawleigh answered if he would say any thing he would answer him . master atturney told him the kings councell must speake last . nay by your leave ( said he ) he that speakes for his life shall speake last . are you contented said master atturney that the jury shall go together : yea , in gods name said sir walter . then master atturney entred into a speech to this effect : now iesus christ shall be glorified , iesus christ shall have a great victory this day , as great as when it was said vicisti galilee . now sir walter i will prove you to have a spanish heart . see with what a vvhoorish forehead he hath defended his fault : he hath deceived my poore lord cobham as eve was deceived with an apple , by a letter in an apple , and hath seduced this poor lord to write i know not what to him against his conscience : but he could not sleepe quietly till he had revealed the truth of it to the lords , and voluntarily of himself written the whole matter to them with his owne hand but yesterday , vvhich i vvill read vvith a loud voice though i be not able to speake this sennight after : and so pulled my lord cobhams letter out of his pocket , vvhich vvas in effect thus to the lords , vizt. that sir walter had vvritten a letter to him a weeke before to intreat him for gods sake , to signifie unto him by his letter that he had vvronged him in his accusation , and told him that the lords had appointed to meet at master atturneys house , to consider of his cause : and that it vvas better to be constant in deniall than to appeale to the king , and that he should take heed of preachers by my lord of essexes example . novv it vvas ( vvrites my lord cobham ) no time to dissemble , and therefore he protested unto their lordships before god and angels : that the accusation of sir walter vvas substantially true . and further confessed that sir walter had dealt with him since the queenes death to procure him a pension from spaine , to give intelligence vvhen any thing vvas intended by england against them . this letter vvas vvonderfully esteemed by master attourney and most effectually applyed vvith many quaint phrases against sir walter , vvho ansvvered nothing to those speeches vvhich vvere personall , having said before , that they vvere used onely to bring him into detestation of the vvorld , but spake to this effect . novv it shall appeare that my lord cobham , is an unworthy , base , silly , simple poore soule . master atturney said , is my lord so poore ? yea , ( said he ) in spirit . would to god you were so ( quoth master atturney : ) sir walter proceeded ; i will tell you the troth . it is true i got a poore fellow in the tower , to cast up a letter tyed to an apple ( for so cobhams letter was conveyed ) in at my lord cobhams window , when the lievtenant was at supper , ( which i was loath to have spoken of , least the lieutenant should be blamed , but all the lieutenants in the world could not have helpt it ) wherein i intreated him for gods sake to do me right , and to right the truth unto me : because i knew not whither i should be arraigned before him or no : and hereupon he writt to me how he had wronged me : and herein i did nothing that was dishonest for ought i know ; but i sent him a letter againe , ( because i heard he should be arraigned first ) and desired him to publish my innocence at his arraignment ; but that notwithstanding he writ unto me againe , which letter i have now about me ( being all my hope ) and i beseech your lordships to peruse it . master atturney would not have it read , but said , my lord cecill marre not a good cause , my lord cecill replyed , master atturney , you are more peremptory then honest , you must not come heer to shew me what to do . then sir walter desired my lord cecil perticularly to read it , because he knew my lord cobhams hand , which at his request my lord cecil did . the letter was to this purpose . that whereas my lord cobham did not know whither he or sir walter should be first arraigned , and because the bloud of sir walter , and undoing of him , his posterity should not be required at his hands at the last day . therefore he did by this letter confesse , that he had wronged sir walter in his former accusation , and that sir walter was innocent of any such practises , and this was true as he hoped to be saved : hereupon sir walter desired the jury to consider what a man this was , and what his testimony was , yet if it were worth any thing . the protestations which he had made to cleare him , were more violent then those which he had made against him . and the reason that might draw my lord cobham to vvrite this last letter in accusation of him , were greater then could be alledged to perswade him to write the letter in his excuse : here my lord cheife justice desired my lord cecil , and my lord of northampton to satisfie the jury , that there was no condition of favour promised to my lord cobham for writing this last letter : which they both did protest to their knowledge . nay said sir walter i dare say your lordshipps would not offer it . but my lord cobham received a letter from his wife , that there was no way to save his life but to accuse me : which was said upon the going together of the jury . concerning the matter in my lord cobhams letter of standing to his deniall , and to admit no preachers by the misfortune of my lord of essex ; and his desire of a pension from spaine . i protest to god said sir walter they are false like as the rest . saving that this i do confesse ; that my l. cobham offered me a pension , and i ( alas my lords ) loath to cast him away , and being confident that i had disswaded him from those humours , did conceale it . but that ever i dealt with him for any such pension is most untrue . and for the meeting of the lords at mr. atturnies house , he heard so he protested by happe by a child of his . after all this , the jury went together and staid above halfe an houre , and returned with their verdict , guilty . then my lord cheife justice asked what he could say why judgement should not be given upon him . hee said he knew the court was to give judgement after their verdict , and so was willing my lord should proceede . then my l. chiefe justice pronounced judgement against him in this manner , viz. sir walter rawleigh , you are to be conveied to the place from whence you came , and from thence to the place of execution , and there to bee hanged till you are halfe dead , your members to be out off , your bowells to be taken out , and cast into the fire before your face ( you being yet alive ) your head to bee cut off , your quarters to be divided into foure parts , to be bestowed in foure severall places , and so ( said my lord cheife justice ) lord have mercy upon your soule . sir walter upon this , humbly desired , that the king might know the proofes against him . and that hee did persist in his loyalty , notwithstanding the said verdict ( which he would pray his said jury might never answer for ) and further said , the death of him and my lord cobham should witnesse betweene them . only he craved pardon for concealing my lord cobhams offer to him . and humbly besought the king to have compassion on him , hee was a poore gentleman and had a poore wife , and a poore child , raw , and unbrought up : he had much forgotten his duty in concealing my lord cobhams fault . so judgement being given as aforesaid , and he having talked a while with the lords in private , went back with the sheriffe to the prison , with admirable erection , yet in such sort , as a condemned man should doe . the proceedings against sir walter rawleigh knight , at the kings bench barre , in westminster , the . of october , . together with his execution at westminster , on the of october anno the . iacobi regis &c. upon wednesday the of october , anno. dom. . the lievtenant of the tower according to a warrant to him directed , brought sir walter rawleigh from the tower , to the kings bench barre at westminster : where the recordes of his arraignment at winchester was opened ; and he demanded , why execution should not be done upon him , according to the judgement therein pronounced against him . to which he began in way of answer , to justifie himself in his proceedings in the late voyage , but the lord chiefe justice silenced him therein , saying , there was no other matter there in question , but concerning the judgement of death , that formerly hath been given against him , the which the kings pleasure was , upon some occasions best knowne to himselfe , to have executed , unlesse he could shew good cause to the contrary . unto which sir walter rawleigh said , that he was told by his councell , that in regard his majestie since the said judgement , had been pleased to imploy him in his service , as by commission he had done , it made void the said judgment , and was a verification unto him . but the lord chiefe justice told him , that he was therein deceived , and that the opinion of the court was to the contrary . wherewith he was satisfyed , and desired that some reasonable time , might be allowed him to prepare him selfe for death . but it was answered him , that the time appointed was on the morrow , and that it was not to be doubted , but that he had prepared himselfe for death long since . and i am glad said the l. chief justice , that you have given the world so good satisfaction of your religion , as by some bookes published by you , you have . and so master atturney generall , requiring in the kings behalfe , that execution might be done upon the prisoner , according to the foresaid judgement . the sheriffs of middlesex , were commanded for that purpose , to take him to their custody , who presently carryed him to the gate-house . from whence , the next morning , betweene the sheriffs of middlesex sir walter rawleigh was brought to the old palace , in westminster , where a large scaffold was erected for the execution . whereupon , when he came with a cheerfull countenance , he saluted the lords , knights and gentlemen , there present . after which , a proclamation was made for silence , and he addressed himselfe , to speake in this manner . i desire to be borne withall , for this is the third day of my feaver , and if i shall shew any weaknesse , i beseech you to attribute it to my mallady , for this is the hour in which it is wont to come . then pawsing a while , he sate , and directed himselfe towards a window , where the lord of arundel , northampton , and doncaster with some other lords , and knights , sat and spake as followeth , i thanke god of his infinite goodnesse , that he hath brought me to die in the light , and not in darknesse , ( but by reason , that the place where the lords , &c. sate ) was some distance from the scaffold , that he perceived they could not well hear him , he said , i will straine my voice , for i would willingly have your honours heare me . but my lord of arundel said , nay , we will rather come downe to the scaffold , which he and some others did . where being come , he saluted them severally , and then began againe to speake as followeth , viz. as i said , i thanke god heartily , that he hath brought me into the light to dye , and that he hath not suffered me to dye in the darke prison of the tower , where i have suffered a great deale of misery , and cruell sicknesse , and i thanke god , that my feaver hath not taken me at this time , as i prayed to god it might not . there are two maine points of suspition that his majestie as i heare , hath conceived against mee . to resolve your lordships wherein his majesty cannot be satisfied , which i desire to cleer , and to resolve your lordships off : one is , that his majesty hath been informed , that i have often had plotts with france , and his majesty had good reason to induce him thereunto . one reason that his majesty had to conjecture so , was , that when i came back from guyana , being come to plymouth , i endeavoured to go in a barke to rochell , which was , for that i would have made my peace , before i had come to englande ; another reason was , upon my flight , i did intend to fly into france , for the saving of my selfe , having had some terror from above . a third reason is , his majesty had reason to suspect , was the french agents coming to me , besides it was reported that i had a commission from the frech king , at my going forth , these are the reasons that his majesty had , as i am informed to suspect me . but this i say , for a man to call god to witnesse , to a falshood at the hour of death , is farre more grievous and impious , and that a man that so doth cannot have salvation , for he hath no time of repentance , then what shall i expect , that am going instantly to render up my account . i do therefore call god to witnesse , as i hope to be saved , and as i hope to see him in his kingdom , which i hope i shall within this quarter of this houre , i never had any commission from the french king , nor never saw the french kings hand writing in all my life , neither know i that there was a french agent , nor what he was , till i mett him in my gallery at my lodging unlooked for , if i speake not true , o lord let me never enter into thy kingdome . the second suspition was , that his majesty had been informed , that i should speake dishonorably , and disloyally of my soveraigne ; but my accuser was a base french man , a runnagate fellow , one that hath no dwelling , a kinde of a chymicall fellow , one that i knew to be persideous , for being by him drawne into the action of fearing my selfe at winchester , in which i confesse my hand was toucht , hee being sworne to secrecie over night revealed it the next morning . but this i speake , now what have i to doe with kings ; i have nothing to doe with them , neither doe i feare them ; i have onely now to doe with my god , in whose presence i stand , therefore to tell a lye , were it to gaine the kings favour , were vaine : therefore , as i hope to be saved at the last judgement day , i never spake dishonorably , disloyally , or dishonestly of his majesty in all my life ; and therefore i cannot but thinke it strange , that that frenchman being so base and meane a fellow should be so farr credited as he hath been . i have dealt truely , as i hope to be saved , and i hope i shall be beleeved : i confesse , i did attempt to escape , i cannot excuse it , but it was onely to save my life . and i doe likewise confesse , that i did faigne my selfe to be ill disposed and sick at salisbury , but i hope it was no sinne , for the prophet david did make himselfe a foole , and suffered spittle to fall down upon his beard , to escape from the hands of his enemies , and it was not imputed unto him : so , what i did , i intended no ill , but to gaine and prolong time till his majesty came , hoping for some commiseration from him . but i forgive this french-man and sir lewis stewkelye withall my heart , for i have received the sacrament this morning of master deane of westminster , and i have forgiven all men , but that they that are persideous , i am bound in charity to speake , that all men may take heede of them . sir lewis stewkeley , my keeper and kinsman , hath affirmed that i should tell him , that my lord carewe , and my lord of doncaster heer , did advise me to escape , but i protest before god , i never told him any such thing , neither did the lords advise me to any such matter : neither is it likely that i should tell him any such thing , of two privy-councellors : neither had i any reason to tell him , or he to report it ; for it is well knowne , he left me , , , and dayes together alone , to go whither i listed , whilest he rod himselfe about the countrey . he further accused me , that i should shew him a letter whereby , i did signifie unto him , that i would give him ten thousand pounds for my escape ; but god cast my soule into everlasting fire , if i made any such profer of pounds , or , but indeed i shewed him a letter , that if he would go with me , there should be order taken for his debts when he was gone , neither had i pound to give him , for if i had had so much , i could have made my peace better with it otherwayes , then in giving it to stewkeley . further , when i came to sir edward pelhams house , who had been a follower of mine , and who gave me good entertainment . he gave out , that i had there received some dramme of poyson , when i answered him that i feared no such thing , for i was well assured of them in the house , and therefore wisht him to have no such thought ; now god forgive him for i do , and i desire god to forgive him , i will not onely say , god is a god of revenge ; but i desire god to forgive him , as i do desire to be forgiven of god . then looking over his noate of remembrance , well said he , thus farre i have gone , a little more , a little more , and i will have done by and by . it was told the king that i was brought per-force into england , and that i did not intend to come againe ; but sir charles parker , m. trefham , m. leake , and divers know how i was dealt withall by the common-souldiers , which were in number , who mutined , and sent for me to come into the ship to them , for unto me they would not come , and there was i forced for to take an oath , that i would not go into england , till that they would have me ; otherwise they would have cast me into the sea , and therewithall they drove me into my cabbin , and bent all their forces against me . now after i had taken this oath , with wine , and other things , such as i had about me , i drew some of the cheifest to desist from their purposes ; and at length , i perswaded them to goe into ireland , which they were willing unto , and would have gone into the north parts of ireland , which i disswaded them from , and told them that they were red-shankes that inhabited there , and with much adoe , i perswaded them to go into the south parts of ireland , promising them to get their pardons , and was forced to give them pound at kinsall , to bring them home , otherwise i had never got from them . i heare likewise , there was a report , that i meant not to go to guyana at all , and that i knew not of any myne , nor intended any such thing or matter , but onely to get my liberty , which i had not the wit to keep . but i protest it was my full intent , and for gold , for gold for the benefit of his majesty , and my selfe , and of those that ventured , and went with me , with the rest of my countreymen : but he that knew the head of the myne would not discover it , when he saw my sonne was slaine , but made away himselfe . and then turning to my earle of arundel , he said , my lord , being in the gallery of my ship , at my departure , i remember your honor took me by the hand , and said , you would request one thing of me , which was , that whither i made a good voyage or a bad , i should not fayle , but to returne againe into england , which i then promised you , and gave you my faith i would , and so i have . to which my lord answered and said , it is true , i do very well remember it , they were the very last words i spake unto you . another slander was raised of me , that i would have gone away from them , and left them at guyana . but there was a great many worthy men , that accompanied me alwayes , as my serieant major , george rawleigh and divers others , which knew my intent was nothing so . another opinion was held of me , that i carried with me to sea , peeces , and that vvas all the voyage i intended , onely to get mony into my hands . as i shall ansvver it before god , i had not in all the world in my hands or others to my use , either directly or indirectly , above a hundred pound , whereof when i went i gave my wife pounds thereof , but the error thereof came as i perceived , by looking over the screvenors bookes , where they found the bills of adventure arising to a great sum , so raised that false report . onely i will borrow a little time of m. sheriffes to speake of one thing , that doth make my heart to bleed , to heare that such an imputation should be layd upon me , for it is said , that i should be a persecutor of the death of the earle of essex , and that i stood in a window over against him , when he suffered , and puffed out tobacco in disdaine of him , god i take to witnesse , i shed teares for him when he died , and as i hope to looke god in the face hereafter , my lord of essex did not see my face , when he suffered , for i was a farre off in the armory , where i saw him , but he saw notme . i confesse indeed i was of a contrary faction , but i know my lord of essex was a noble gentleman , and that it would be worse with me when he was gone ; for i got the hate of those which vvishad me well before , and those that set me against him , afterwards set themselves against me , and was my greatest enemies , and my soule hath many times been grieved , that i was not nearer him vvhen he died ; because as i understood aftervvards , that he asked for me at his death , to have been reconcyled unto me . and these be the materiall points i thought good to speake of , and i ame novv at this instant , to render up an account to god , and i protest as i shall appeare before him , this that i have spoken is true , and i hope i shal be beleeved then a proclamation being made , that all men should depart the scaffold , he prepared himselfe for death : giving away his hat , his cap , vvith some mony , to such as he knevv , that stood neer him . and then taking his leave of the lords , knights , gentlemen , and others of his acquaintance , and amongst the rest , taking his leave of my lord of arundel , he thanked him for his company , and intreated him to desire the king that no scandalous vvriting to defame him , might be published after his death , saying further unto him , i have a long journey to go , and therefore i vvill take my leave and then putting off his doublet , and govvne , he desired the headsman to shevv him the axe , vvhich not being suddenly granted unto him , he said i prethee , let me see it , dost thou thinke that i am afraid of it , so it being given unto him , he felt along upon the edge of it , and smiling , spake unto m. sheriffe saying , this is a sharpe medecine , but it is a physitian that will cure all diseases . then going to and fro upon the scaffold on every side , he intreated the company to pray to god to give him strength . then having ended his speech , the executioner kneeled downe and asked him forgivenesse , the which laying his hand upon his shoulder he forgave him . then being asked , which way he would lay himself on the block , he made answer and said , so the heart be streight it is no matter which way the head lyeth : so laying his head on the block , his face being towards the east , the headsman throwing downe his owne cloak , because he would not spoyl the prisoners gowne , he giving the headsman a signe when he should strike , by lifting up his hands , the executioner strook of his head , at two blowes , his body never shrinking nor mooving , his head was shewed on each side of the scaffold , and then put into a red leather bag , and his wrought velvet gowne throwne over it , which was afterwards conveyed away in a mourning coach of his ladyes . sir walter rawleigh's letter to the king the night before his death . the life which i had most mighty prince , the law hath taken from me , and i am now but the same earth and dust out of which i was made . if my offence had any proportion with your majesties mercy i might despaire , or if my deserving had any quantity with your majesties unmeasurable goodnesse i might yet have hope , but it is you that must judge and not i , name , blood , gentility , or estate i have none ; no not so much as a being , no not so much as a vitam planta : i have onely a penetent soule in a body of iron , which mooveth towards the load-stone of death , and cannot be withheld from touching it , except your majesties mercy turne the point towards me that expelleth . lost i am for hearing of vain man , for hearing only and never beleeving nor accepting : and so little account i made of that speech of his , which was my condemnation ( as my forsaking him doth truly witnesse ) that i never remembred any such thing , till it was at my tryall objected against me . so did he repay my care , who cared to make him good , which i now see no care of man can effect . but god ( for my offence to him ) hath laid this heavy burthen on me , miserable and unfortunate wretch that i am . but for not loving you ( my soveraigne ) god hath not layd this sorrow on me : for he knowes ( with whom i am not in case to lye ) that i honored your majesty by same , and loved and admired you by knowledge , so that whither i live or dye , your majesties loving servant i will live and die . if now i write what seemes not well favoured ( most mercifull prince ) vouchsafe to asscribe it to the councell of a dead heart , and to a minde that sorrow hath confounded . but the more my misery is , the more is your majesties mercy ( if you please to behold it ) and the lesse i can deserve , the more liberall your majesties gift shall be : herein you shall onely imitate god , giving free life : and by giving to such a one from whom there can be no retribution , but onely a desire to pay a lent life with the same great love ; which the same great goodnesse shall bestow on it . this being the first letter , that ever your majesty received from a dead man : i humbly submit my selfe to the will of god my supream lord , and shall willingly and patiently suffer whatsoever it shall please your majestie to afflict me withall , walter rawleigh . the copy of sir walter rawleighs letter to his wife , the night before his death . you shall now receive ( my deare wife ) my last words in these my last lines . my love i send you that you may keep it when i am dead , and my cou●cell that you may remember it when i am no more i would not by my will present you with sorrowes ( deare besse ) let them go into the grave with me and be buried in the dust . and seeing that it is not gods will that i should see you any more in this life , beare in patiently , and with a heart like thy selfe . first i send you all the thankes which my heart can conceive , or my words can reherse for your many travailes , and care taken for me , which though they have not taken effect as you wished , yet my debt to you is not the lesse : but pay it i never shall in this world . secondly , i beseech you for the love you beare me living , do not hide your selfe many dayes , but by your travailes seeke to helpe your miserable fortunes , and the right of your poor childe . thy mourning cannot availe me , i am but dust . thirdly you shall understand , that my land was conveyed bona fide to my childe : the writings were drawne at midsummer was twelve months , my honest cosen brett can testify so much , and dolberry too , can remem●er somewhat therein . and i trust my blood will quench their malice that have cruelly murthered me : and that they will not seek also to kill thee and thine with extreame poverty . to what friend to direct thee i know not , for all mine have left me in the true time of tryall . and i perceive that my death was determined from the first day . most sorry i am god knowes that being thus surprised with death i can leave you in no better estate . god is my witnesse i meant you all my office of wines or all that i could have purchased by selling it , halfe my stuffe , and all my jewels , but some one for the boy , but god hath prevented all my resolutions . that great god that ruleth all in all , but if you can live free from want , care for no more , the rest is but vanity . love god , and begin betimes to repose your selfe upon him , and therein shall you finde true and lasting riches , and endlesse comfort : for the rest when you have travelled and wearied your thoughts , ver all sorts of worldly cogitations , you shall but sit downe by sorrow in the end . teach your son also to love and feare god whilst he is yet young , that the feare of god may grow with him , and then god will be a husband to you , and a father to him ; a husband and a father which cannot be taken from you . baily oweth me pounds , and adrian in iersey i also have much owing me besides . the arrearrages of the wines will pay , your debts . and howsoever you do , for my soules sake , pay all poore men . when i am gone , no doubt you shall be sought too , for the world thinkes that i was very rich . but take heed of the pretences of men , and their affections , for they last not but in honest and worthy men , and no greater misery can befall you in this life , then to become a prey , and afterwards to be despised . i speake not this ( god knowes ) to disswade you from marriage , for it will be best for you both in respect of the world and of god . as for me i am no more yours , nor you mine , death hath cut us asunder : and god hath divided me from the world , and you from me . remember your poore childe for his fathers sake , who chose you , and loved you in his happiest times . get those letters ( if it be possible ) which i writ to the lords , wherein i sued for my life : god is my witnesse it was for you and yours that i desired life , but it is true that i disdained my self for begging of it : for know it ( my deare wife ) that your son is the son of a true man , and who in his owne respect despiseth death and all his mishapen & ugly formes . i cannot write much , god he knows how hardly i steale this time while others sleep , and it is also time that i should separate my thoughts from the world . begg my dead body which living was denied thee ; and either lay it at sherburne ( and if the land continue ) or in exeter-church by my father and mother ; i can say no more , time and death call me away , the everlasting , powerfull , infinite , and omnipotent god , that almighty god , who is goodnesse it selfe , the true life and true light keep thee and thine : have mercy on me , and teach me to forgive my persecutors and accusers , and send us to meet in his glorious kingdome . my deare wife farewell . blesse my poore boy . pray for me , and let my good god hold you both in his armes . written with the dying hand of sometimes thy husband , but now alasse overthrowne ; walter rawleigh . finis . the trial, conviction and condemnation of andrew brommich and william atkins, for being romish priests, before the right honourable the lord chief justice scroggs, at summer assizes last at stafford held there for the county of stafford, where they received sentence of death accordingly together with the tryal of charles kern, at hereford assizes last for being a romish priest. bromwich, andrew, defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the trial, conviction and condemnation of andrew brommich and william atkins, for being romish priests, before the right honourable the lord chief justice scroggs, at summer assizes last at stafford held there for the county of stafford, where they received sentence of death accordingly together with the tryal of charles kern, at hereford assizes last for being a romish priest. bromwich, andrew, defendant. kern, charles, defendant. p. printed for robert pawlett ..., london : . advertisement: p. . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bromwich, andrew. kern, charles. catholic church -- england. popish plot, . trials -- england. church and state -- catholic church. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the trial , conviction and condemnation of andrew brommich and william atkins , for being romish priests , before the right honourable the lord chief justice scroggs , at summer assizes last at stafford held there for the county of stafford ; where they received sentence of death accordingly . together with the tryal of charles kern , at hereford assizes last for being a romish priest . london , printed for robert pawlett , at the bible in chancery-lane , . i do appoint robert pawlett to print the tryals of andrew brommich , william atkins and charles kerne , and that no other person presume to print the same . william scroggs . the tryal , conviction and condemnation of andrew brommich . vpon wednesday the th . of august . at the assizes held at stafford for the said county , andrew brommich and william atkins being both seminary priests were brought to their tryal , and convicted before the right honourable sr. william scroggs knight , lord chief justice of england and one of his majesties justices of assize there . the court being sate they proceeded to their tryal thus . the lord chief justice having the night before charged the sheriff to returne a good jury , and the court being sate , he enquired of him if he had observed his directions ; the sheriff acquainted his lordship that since he had impannelled the said jury , he had heard that one _____ allen of _____ in the said county , being then returned to serve on the said jury , had said in discourse with some of his fellows , that nothing was done against the popish priests above , and therefore he would do nothing against them here , nor find them guilty : whereupon his lordship called for the said allen , and one randal calclough one of his fellows jury men and another witness upon oath who proving the words against him , his lordship discharg'd him of the jury , and committed him to prison , till he found sureties for his good behaviour , and likewise more of the jury were discharg'd upon suspicion of being popishly affected , his lordship commanding the sheriff to return good men in their places , which was accordingly done , and the jury sworn , viz. thomas higgin , john webb , edward ward , thomas marshall , john beech , randal calclough , richard trindall , james beckett , william smyth , william pinson , daniel buxton and richard cartwright . jurors . cl. of arraign . gaoler set up andrew brommich to the barr : cryer make proclamation . cryer . o yes ! if any one can inform my lords the king 's just the king's serjeant , the kings atturney or this inquest now to be taken , of any treasons , murders , felonies or other misdemeanours committed or done by the prisoner at the bar , let them come forth and they shall be heard . cl. of arr. andrew brommich hold up thy hand , these good men that were lately called and have now appeared , are those which must pass between our soveraign lord the king and you upon your life or death : if you will challenge any of them you must speak as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . [ the prisoner challenging none , the jury was sworn , ut ante . cl. of arr. gentlemen of the jury , look upon the prisoner and hearken to his cause , you shall understand that he stands indicted by the name of andrew brommich , late of perry barr in the county of stafford gentleman , for that he being born within the kingdom of england , the thirteenth day of january in the thirtieth year of the reign of our sovereigne lord king charls the d . by the grace of god of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. then being a seminary priest made , professed and ordained by the authority and jurisdiction challenged , pretended and derived from the see of rome , the said thirteenth day of january in the year aforesaid , within this kingdome of england , viz. at perry barr aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , trayterously did come , was and did remain against the form of the statute in that case made and provided , and against the peace of our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity . upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and hath pleaded thereunto not guilty , and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and his country , which country you are : your charge is to inquire whether he be guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty : if you find him guilty , you are to inquire what lands , goods , or tenements he had at the time of the treason committed , or at any time since ; if you find him not guilty , you are to inquire whether he did fly for the same , and what lands , goods or tenements he had at the same time of such flight , or at any time since ; if you find him not guilty , nor that he did fly for the same , you are to say so and no more , and hear your evidence . cl. of arr. cryer , call ann robinson , who being sworn . l. ch. just . ann robinson , what can you say against andrew brommich . a. rob. my lord , i can say that i received the sacarment of him according to the church of rome in a wafer . l. ch. just . when ? how long ago ? a. rob. about christmas last . l. ch. just . what company was there ? how many were there in company ? a. rob. my lord , i cannot possitively tell how many , but i beleive there were about seven or eight . l. ch. just . did they all receive at the same time ? ann. robinson . yes , my lord they did all receive at that time . l. ch. just . are you a papist ? a. rob. no my lord. l. ch. just . how long were you a papist ? a. rob. several years . l. ch. just . who first seduc'd you ? a. rob. my lord i cannot tell his name . lord chief justice . did you ever receive the sacrament according to their way of mr. brommich before the time you speak of ? a. rob. yes . l. ch. just . how often ? a. rob. four times , my lord , twice at mr. birch's , and twice at mr. pursal's . l. ch. just . how came you to give her the sacrament ? ( to the prisoner . ) pris . my lord i never did . l. ch. just . why , she has sworn you gave it her several times , once in particular at christmas last , and times more , twice at mr. birch's , and twice at mr. pursall's . pris . my lord , i cannot help it . i desire your lordship will take notice of one thing , that i have taken the oaths of allegeance and supremacy , and have not refus'd any thing which might testifie my loyalty . l. ch. just . that will not serve your turn , you priests have tricks to evade that . pris . besides my lord , i never absconded . l. ch. just . you never absconded , what is that to giving the woman the sacrament several times ? pris . my lord i desire she may prove it . l. ch. just . she does so . pris . my lord i humbly conceive it was no sacrament unless i were a priest . l. ch. just . what an argument is that ? you expect we should prove you a priest by witnesses , which saw you take orders , but we know so much of your religion , that none undertake to give the sacrament in a wafer , or say mass , but a priest : and you gave the sacrament to that woman in a wafer , therefore you are a priest . cl. arr. cryer , call another witness , swear jeoffery robinson . l. ch. just . what can you say to mr. brommich ? jeoff. rob. i can say nothing against him . l. ch. just . did you ever hear him say mass ? jeoff. rob. i cannot tell ; i have heard him say something in an unknown tongue , but i know not what it was . l. ch. just . was it latin that he said . jeoff. rob. i cannot tell , i am no scholar . l. ch. just . had he a surplice on ? jeoff. rob. yes my lord he had . l. ch. just . robinson , are you a papist ? jeoff. rob. yes my lord. l. ch. just . i thought so , it is so hard to get the truth out of you . cl. ar. cryer , swear jane robinson . l. ch. just . come what can you say ? did you ever see brommich give the sacrament ? jane rob. not to my knowledge . l. ch. just . did you ever hear him say mass ? jane rob. i never saw him doe any thing ; for i only went up and said my prayers , i took no notice of any thing . l. ch. just . did you not see brommich there ? jane rob. i cannot tell . l. ch. just . why , don't you know him ? jane rob. no my lord. l. ch. just . your husband knows him . you jeoffery robinson , do not you know mr. brommich ? jef. rob. not i , my lord. l. ch. just . that 's right like a papist , did you not but just now say you heard him say something in an unknown tongue , and saw him in a surplice , and yet now you do not know him ? you have no more conscience than what your priests allow you . but though your priests can perswade you to take false oathes , i would not have you think they can protect you from the punishment due to them here or hereafter . an. rob. my lord , they both took the sacrament with me at the same time from him . l. ch. just . look you there , was ever the like impudence seen , come friend , consider you are upon your oath , and do not bring your self into the snare of a pillory . come robinson , i ask you by the oath you have taken , did you receive the sacrament with an. robinson at the time she speaks of at mr. parsall's ? jeoff. rob. yes my lord. lord chief just . how hard is the truth to be gotten out of you . but within this country , which abounds so with priests and swarms with papists , that you get popery here like the itch ; if they but rub upon you , you ketch it . jane rob. my lord , he 's a weak man. l. ch. just . who gave it you . jef. rob. i do not know . l. ch. just . he 'l say no more then his wife and priest will give him leave . l. ch. just . look you gentlemen of the jury , here are papists that are witnesses , you are to consider how far they tell the truth , and how far they conceal it , how they tell their tail so as to serve a turn : for here you see the man said at first he heard him say somewhat in an unknown tongue , and that he saw him in a surplice , after that he denies he knows him , but now you see by this woman the truth is come out , he hath confess 't and own'd he received the sacrament at pursall's with her . we cannot expect more positive evidence from such people , come read the statute . anno eliz. cap. . whereas divers persons , called or professed iesuit , seminary priests , and other priests , which have been , and from time to time are made in the parts beyond the seas , by or according to the order and rites of the romish church , have of late comen and been sent , and daily do come and are sent into this realm of england and other the queens majesties dominions , of purpose ( as it hath appeared ) as well by sundry of their owne examinations and confessions , as divers other manifest means and proofs , not onely to withdraw her highnesses subjects from their due obedienee to her majestie , but also to stir up and move sedition , rebellion and open hostility within the same her highness realms and dominions to the great indangering of the safety of her most royal person , and to the utter ruine , desolation and overthrow of the whole realm , if the same be not the sooner by some good means foreséen and prevented . for reformac̄ whereof be it ordained , established and enacted by the quéens most excellent majestie , and the lords spirituall and temporall , and the commons in this present parliament assembled , and by the authority of the same parliam̄t , that all and every iesuits , semininary priests , and other priests whatsoever , made or ordained out of the realm of england or other her highness dominions , or within any of her majesties realms or dominions , by any authority , power or iurisdiction , derived , challenged , or pretended from the see of rome since the feast of the nativity of st. john baptist , in the first year of her highness reign , shall within forty days next after the end of this present session of parliament depart out of this realm of england , and out of all other her highness realms and dominions , if the wind , weather , and passage shall serve for the same , or else so soon after the end of the said forty days as the wind , weather and passage shall so serve . and be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid , that it shall not be lawfull to , or for any iesuit , seminary priest , or other such priest , deacon , or religious , or ecclesiastical person whatsoever , being born within this realm , or any other her highness dominions , and heretofore since the said feast of the nativity of st. john baptist in the first year of her majesties reigne made , ordained or professe or hereafter to be made , ordained or professed by any authority or iurisdiction derived , challenged or pretended from the sée of rome , by , or of what name , title or degrée soever the same shall be called or known to come into , be , or remaine in any part of this realm or any other her highness dominions , after the end of the same forty days other then in such special cases , and upon such speciall occasions only , and for such time only as is expressed in this act. and if he do , that then every such offence shall be taken and adjudged to be high treason , and every person so offending shall for his offence be adjudged a traytor and shall suffer losse , and forfeit as in case of high treason . and every person which after the end of the same forty days , and after such time of departure as is before limited and appointed , shall wittingly and willingly receive , relieve , comfort , aid or maintain any such iesuit , seminary priest , or other priest , deacon or religious , or ecclesiasticall person as is aforesaid , being at liberty , or out of hold , knowing him to be a iesuit , seminary priest , or other such priest , deacon or religious , or ecclesiasticall person as is aforesaid , shall also for such offence be adjudged a felon without benefit of clergy , and suffer death , losse , and forfeit , as in case of one attainted of felony . l. ch. just . come what have you more to say ? prisoner . i desire that there may be notice taken what robinson and his said wife said upon their examinations before the justice of peace . l. ch. j. we are to take notice only of what they say here . pris . my lord , they said here they did not know me . l. ch. just . n● did not robinson say he heard you say something in an unknown tongue , that he then saw you in a surplice ? did we talk of any one but you ? come jesuit , with your learning , you shall not think to bastle us : i have of late had occasion to converse with your most learned priests , and never yet saw one that had either learning or honesty . l. ch. j. have you any witnesses ? have you any more to say ? pris . no. l. ch. j. then gentlemen of the jury , the question you are to try , is whether ●●drew brommich be a popish priest or not : to prove that he is , here is a woman , one anne robinson , that swears she received the sacrament of him in a wafer once at christmas last , and twice at mr. birch's , and twice at mr. pursals , and that he gave it to several others at the same time . there needs not much to perswade you that he who gives the sacrament is a priest , for in their church they allow no one but a priest to give the sacrament , so there is one express evidence against him : and now i must satisfie you in one thing , that you are to give a verdict not that he is a priest , but that you believe him in your conscience upon the whole evidence , to be a priest . to make you do this here is one positive evidence . the other man , when i came to examine him whether he ever heard the prisoner say mass ; he answered , that he heard him say something in an unknown tongue , and that he was in a surplice . this is as much as we could expect from one of their own religion , who dare say no more than their priests will give them leave to do . so gentlemen i must leave it to you , whether or no you will not believe the testimony of this real positive witness , and the circumstantial evidence of the other man : for you see in what dangers we are , i leave it upon your consciences whether you will let priests escape who are the very pests and dangers of church and state ; you had better be rid of one priest than three felons , so gentlemen , i leave it to you . the jury having staid some time , returned to the court to give their verdict . cl. arr. gentlemen of the jury , have you agreed on your verdict ? jury , yes . cl. arr. who shall say it for you ? jury , the foreman . cl. arr. goaler , set up andrew brommich to the bar. gentlemen , do you find andrew brommich guilty of the high treason he hath been arraigned of , or not guilty . jury ; guilty . l. ch. j. gentlemen , you have found a good verdict , and if i had been one of you , i should have found the same my self . upon wednesday the thirteenth of august , . at the assizes held at stafford , for the county of stafford ; william atkins was brought to his tryal for being a seminary priest , before the right honourable sir william scroggs , knight , lord chief justice . the court proceeded to his tryal in like manner as in the former , there being the same jury . cl. arr. goaler , set up william atkins to the bar. cryer , make proclamation . cl. arr. gentlemen of the jury , look on the prisoner and hearken to his cause . you shall understand that he stands indicted by the name of william atkins late of wolverhampton in the county of stafford , gent. for that he being born within the kingdom of england , the fifth day of december , in the thirtieth year of the reign of our soveraign lord king charles the second , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france , and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. then being a seminary priest ; made , professed , and ordained by the authority and jurisdiction challenged , pretended , and derived from the see of rome ; the said fifth day of december in the year aforesaid within this kingdom of england , viz. at wolverhampton aforesaid in the county aforesaid , traiterously did come , was , and did remain against the form of the statute in that case made and provided ; and against the peace of our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity . upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto pleaded not guilty ; and for his tryal he hath put himself upon god and his country , which country you are . your charge is to enquire whether he be guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted or not guilty : if you find him guilty , you are to enquire what lands , goods , or tenements he had at the time of the high treason committed , or at any time since ; if you find not guilty , you are to enquire whether he did flee for the same : if you find he did flee for the same , you are to enquire what lands , goods , or tenements he had at the time of such flight , or at any time since ; if you find him not guilty nor that he did flee for the same , you are to say so and no more , and hear your evidence . cl. arr. cryer , call the witnesses ; call william jackson , francis wilden , jo. jarvis , &c. swear jackson , which was done . l. ch. j. come friend , what can you say concerning atkins the prisoner being a priest ? jack . my lord , i can say nothing at all , i was there when he was apprehended , and bound over to prosecute him . cl. arr. cryer , swear francis wilden , which was done . l. ch. j. what can you say concerning atkins being a priest ? w. my lord , i have seen him at prayers . l. ch. j. was he in a surplice then ? w. yes my lord. l. ch. j. did you ever see him say mass ? w. i cannot tell . l. ch. j. in what language were his prayers ? w. in an unknown tongue . l. ch. j. were they in latin ? w. i cannot tell , my lord , i am not a scholar good enough to know . l. ch. j. are you a papist ? w. i have been a protestant since christmas . l. ch. j. 't is the principle of a protestant to tell down right truth , and the principle of a papist is to equivocate ; come speak truth and your conscience will be lighter : did you ever see atkins deliver the sacrament in a wafer , according to the manner and way of the church of rome ? w. my lord , i never received it of him my self , but i have seen him give it to others . l. ch. j. where ? w. at mrs. stanfords , at wolverhampton . l. ch. j. to how many ? w. to seven or eight at a time . l. ch. j. was he in a surplice then ? w. yes my lord. l. ch. j. i do not know whether the prisoner can hear what the witness says , 't is fit he should know : the prisoner being told , he replied he knew not the witness . cl. arr. swear john jarvis , cryer , my lord , he refuseth to be sworn . l. ch. j. jarvis , why will you not be sworn ? jer. my lord , i was troubled with a vision the last night . l. ch. j. you mistake friend , old men dream dreams , 't is young men see visions , and you are an old man : speak the truth , and i 'll warrant you , you will not be troubled with visions any more , this is a trick of the priests . swear him cryer , which was done . l. ch. j. come jarvis , what can you say ? jar. my lord , he is a man that hath relieved me and my children oftentimes when i was in want . l. ch. j. did you ever hear him say mass ? jar. my lord , i am an ignorant man ; i cannot tell : i have heard him say somewhat in an unknown tongue . l. ch. j. did you ever confess to him ? jar. yes , my lord , i did . l. ch. j. did you ever receive the sacrament of him according to the manner of the church of rome ? jar. yes my lord i have , i must speak the truth . l. ch. j. how often ? jar. a great many times . l. ch. j. and had he not his priests habit on when he gave it you ? jar. yes my lord , he had . cl. arr. cryer , call joan wright , who was called but did not appear . call henry brown , who appeared and was sworn . l. ch. j. come mr. brown , what can you say against the prisoner ? did you ever receive the sacrament of him , or hear him say mass ? br. my lord , i was almost turned from the protestant religion to that of the church of rome ; but i never went further than confession , and that was to this man , and then i left them . l. ch. j. indeed you were the wiser . cl. arr. cryer , call tho. dudley who was sworn . l. ch. j. what can you say against the prisoner ? dud. i was a little given that way , and have been at confession with one atkins , and have seen him perform several rites of the church of rome at well head , at ham. l. ch. j. do you believe this to be the man ? dud. yes my lord i do . l. ch. j. have you any more to say ! dud. no my lord. l. ch. j. read the statute . which was done . have you witnesses atkins , or any thing to say for your self ? p. no my lord. l. ch. j. look you gentlemen of the jury , here is as full and as positive an evidence as can be against the prisoner : the two first witnesses , wilden and jarvis , are positive . wilden swears he heard him say his prayers in an unknown tongue ; and further says , that he gave the sacrament to seven or eight according to the manner of the church of rome in a wafer , at mrs. stamford's house in wolverhampton . jarvis the other witness , swears that he hath been at confession with him , and hath oftentimes received the sacrament of him . here are two other honest men , that speak very full as to circumstances ; so that in the whole you cannot have a more clear evidence : and gentlemen , i must tell you , it is to these sorts of men we owe all the troubles and hazards we are in , the fear of the kings life , the subversion of our government , and the loss of our religion . it is notorious by what they have done , that they are departed from the meekness and simplicity of christs doctrine , and would bring in a religion of blood and tyranny amongst us . as if god almighty were some omnipotent mischief , that delighted and would be served with the sacrifices of humane blood . i need not say more to you , the matter 's plain ; i think you need not stir from the bar , but do as you will. the jury having considered of the evidence some time , gave in their verdict . cl. arr. gentlemen of the jury are you agreed of your verdict ? jury , yes . cl. arr. who shall say for you ? jury , the foreman . cl. arr. goaler , set up william atkins , ( which was done . ) gentlemen of the jury look on the prisoner , what say you , is he guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? jury , guilty . cl. arr. what lands , goods , or tenements had he ? jury , none to our knowledge . cl. arr. look to him goaler , he is found guilty of high treason . the sentence . you the prisoners at the bar shall be conveyed from 〈◊〉 to the place from whence you came , and from thence that you be drawn to the place of execution upon hurdles , that there you be severally hanged by the neck , that you be cut down alive , that your privy members be cut off and your bowels taken out and burnt in your view ; that your heads be severed from your bodies , that your bodies be divided into quarters , and those quarters be disposed at the kings pleasure : and the god of infinite mercy be merciful to your souls . on monday the fourth day of august , at hereford ; charles kerne was brought to the bar , and being arraigned , he pleaded not guilty to the indictment : then the court ( after the usual formalities performed ) proceeded to the tryal of him , as followeth . cl. arr. gentlemen of the jury , look upon the prisoner and hearken to his cause : you shall understand that he stands indicted by the name of charles kerne , late of the parish of webly in the county of hereford , gent. for that he being born within the kingdom of england , the twenty ninth day of april in the thirty first year of the reign of our soveraign lord king charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france , and ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c. then being a seminary priest , made , professed , and ordained by the authority and jurisdiction challenged , pretended , and derived from the see of rome , the said twenty ninth day of april in the year aforesaid , within this kingdom of england , ( viz. ) at webly aforesaid in the county aforesaid , traiterously did come , was , and did remain against the form of the statute in that case made and provided ; and against the peace of our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity . upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto pleaded not guilty ; and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and his country , which country you are . your charge is to enquire whether he be guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted or not guilty : if you find him guilty , you are to enquire what lands , goods , or tenements he had at the time of the treason committed , or at any time since ; if you find him not guilty , you are to enquire whether he did flee for the same : if you find he did flee for the same , you are to enquire what lands , tenements , or goods , he had at the time of such flight , or at any time since ; if you find him not guilty , nor that he did flee for the same , you are to say so and no more , and hear your evidence . cl. arr. call edward biddolph , who was sworn . l. ch. j. give the jury pen , ink , and paper . l. ch. j. biddolph , do you know mr. kerne ? bid. i do not know him now : i did know such a man about six years ago , i have seen him once or twice at mr. somersets at bollingham about six years ago . l ch. j. how long is 't ago since you saw him last ? bid. about a year . l. ch. j. had you any discourse with him ? bid. no , i never had any . l. ch. j. look on the prisoner , can you say that is the man ? bid. no my lord , i cannot . l. ch. j. can you say you ever saw or knew him ? bid. i cannot . l. ch. j. set him down . call another witness . cl. arr. swear margaret edwards , which was done . l. ch. j. do you know mr. kerne ? edwards . yes , my lord , i do . l. ch. j. how long have you known him ? edwards . five or six years . l. ch. j. where did you know him ? edwards . at sarnffield , at mrs. monington's . l. ch. j. were you a servant there ? edwards . no , i went thither about business . l. ch. j. where did you first see him ? edwards . at mr. wigmore's of lucton . l. ch. j. had you any discourse with him there ? edwards . no. l. ch. j. how came you to see him at mrs. monington's ? edwards . my lord , one james harris's wife being very sick , i was desired by him to go to mrs. anne monington to seek some remedy for her : he desired me the rather , for that she being a papist , and i of the same religion ; he believed for that reason she would be the more kind to her . l. ch. j. were you a papist then ? edwards . yes my lord. l. ch. j. well , what said mrs. monington to you ? edwards . my lord , she told me she was glad that they had sent me , for that she did not care to discourse the distempers of a woman to a man. l. ch. j. well go on . edwards . my lord , after she had discoursed to me concerning the sick woman , she desired me to go with her , which i did ; and she brought me into the chappel , where i saw mr. kerne in his robes . l. ch. j. were there any more in the room besides him ? edwards . yes , my lord , four or five : he was in his robes and surplice , and was at the altar , and gave the sacrament to the rest , but i did not receive it . l. ch. j. what did you see him do ? edwards . i saw him give the sacrament . l. ch. j. what did he say ? edwards . he said corpus christi , or some such words . l. ch. j. did you see him deliver the wafers ? edwards . yes my lord. l. ch. j. to how many ? edwards . to four . l. ch. j. you swear positively to four : did they confess to him ? edwards . yes i believe they did . l. ch. j. did you ever see him since ? edwards . no my lord , i never saw him between that and this . l. ch. j. did you ever receive the sacrament before , and of whom ? edwards . yes i received several times : the first time was of mr. duffres , next of mr. kemble , then of mr. rowenhill , mr. standish , mr. morgan , mr. trindal ; i have received from mr. draycot at mr. berrington's , i have received at mr. blounts , but the last time was from mr. jennings at mr. wigmore's house . pris . my lord , i desire she may be askt whether she came to mrs. monington's of her own accord , or was sent for physick ? edw. i was sent . p. did the man send you or his wife ? edwards . the man. p. have a care what you say , harris's wife is here to trapan you . l. ch. j. give good words , you begin to triumph too soon . woman , was it harris or his wife sent you ? edwards . it was harris himself that desired me to go , because i might have more favour , being a papist . p. where did that harris live ? edwards . at lempster . p. i am satisfied , 't was a mistake , i thought it had been harris of lawton she had meant . l. ch. j. will you ask her any thing else ? p. i desire to know the time when she saw me at mrs , monington's . edwards . it was in last may was twelvemonth , the twenty ninth day to the best of my memory . l. ch. j. do you take it to be certain , or do you believe it only that it was that day ? edwards . my lord , i am certain it was that very day , for the woman died that day , and that day is writ on the gravestone . p. i desire to know of her whether she was ever askt upon her oath , whether she was ever at mrs. monington's since that time . edwards . i was not there since , nor ever askt the question to the best of my knowledge . l. ch. j. what a question is that ? p. 't is very remarkable , for she was askt by a jury-man last assizes , it was not upon the tryal , but before the grand jury , and she denied then that she was ever at mrs. monington's in her life . edwards . i have been there above twenty times . p. call roger hyet . l. ch. j. by and by your defence will be proper , in the mean time , what will you ask her more ? p. i desire to ask her what discourse she had with mary jones , the other witness , for she has been instructing her what to say ; and that they may be examined asunder , ( which was granted . ) l. ch. j. what discourse had you with the other woman ? edwards . my lord , she told me that she had never in all her life been before a judge or justice of peace , and that she was afraid of coming before one , for she did not know how to behave her self . l. ch. j. did you tell her what she shouly say ? edw. no my lord. l. ch. j. what did you say to her ? edwards . i told her that she would hear her name call'd , and then she must answer , and i bid her have a care that she spoke what she knew , and no more or less than the truth . l. ch. j. did she tell you what she could say ? edwards . she did . l. ch. j. what ? edwards . that she lived at mr. somerset's where mr. kerne usually was , and that several people used to come thither and go up stairs into the chamber ; and she went once to hearken , and she heard mr. kerne say something in latin , which she said was mass . p. here is a material question to ask this witness . i desire to know where this woman saw me first . edwards . at mr. wigmore's of lucton , as they told me it was him , for i did not know his name . p. i would know if the man she saw at mrs. monington's , was the same person she saw at lucton ? edwards . to the best of my knowledge it was . p. i never was at lucton in all my life . l. ch. j. call the other woman , you shall now see how these women agree . cl. arr. call mary jones . cryer , swear her , ( which was done . ) p. i desire they may be examin'd apart . l. ch. j. let the other woman go out . l. ch. j. when was the first time you saw margaret edwards ? jones . yesterday , and again to day . l. ch. j. did she tell you and instruct you what you should say against the prisoner ? jones . no my lord. l. ch. j. did you tell her what you could say against him ? jones . no. l. ch. j. did not you tell her that you lived at mr. somerset's , and that several people used to come thither and go up stairs into the chamber , and that once you went up to hearken , and heard mr. kerne say mass ? jones . she did say so to me , but i did not answer her any thing . l. ch. j. did she ask where you saw mr. kerne ? jones . yes . l. ch. j. where , at bollingham ? jones . i did tell her that i saw him at bollingham , and that i heard him say somewhat aloud , i think it was latin. l. ch. j. how you answer ? i askt you but just now , whether you told her that you saw mr. kerne at mr. somerset's house , and that you went up to hearken , and heard him say somewhat in latin ? and you then said you did not , and now you say you did . jones . she spoke to me first about it , and i did but answer . l. ch. j. what , did she ask you what you could say against mr. kerne ? jones . yes . l. ch. j. and what did you tell her you could say ? jones . i told her , that one sunday morning several people came to bollingham out of the town and out of the country , and went up after him , and he said somewhat aloud that i did not understand . l. ch. j. did you not tell margaret edwards that you heard him say mass ? jones . no my lord. l. ch. j. call margaret edwards again . margaret edwards , did mary jones tell you that she heard mr. kerne say mass ? edwards . yes my lord. l. ch. j. now , mary jones , what say you ? did not you tell her that you heard the prisoner say mass ? jones . no , i am sure i did not , for i never heard the word before , nor do not know what it means . l. ch. j. the one witness says she did not name mass , for she did not understand what it was ; the other says she did , so they contradict one another in that . l. ch. j. mary jones , when did you see mr. kerne ? jones . seven or eight years ago . l. ch. j. where ? jones . at mr. somerset's at bollingham , he lived there half a year . l. ch. j. what did you see him do ? jones . one sunday morning i was busie a washing the rooms , and i saw several people follow him into the chamber . j. ch. j. did you see him do any thing ? jones . no , i heard him say somewhat aloud which i did not understand . l. ch. j. how neer were you to him ? jones . there was only a wall between . l. ch. j. did you ever see him give a wafer , marry , or christen ? jonss . no my lord , there was a child christned in the house . l. ch. j. who christned it ? jones . i cannot tell . there was no one there but my master and mistriss , mr. latchet and his wife , and mr. kerne : i was in the next room , and i heard words spoken by the voice of mr. kerne . l. ch. j. what can you say more ? jones . i wash'd a surplice . l. ch. j. whose was it , the prisoners ? jones . i cannot tell , because i did not see it on his back . p. how could you know a voice ? jones . very easily , there was but a wall between . p. was there no room between ? jones . no , there was not . l. ch. j. the woman speaks sensibly , if you have done asking questions , you had best call your witnesses . pris . call mr. hyet . l. ch. j. mr. hyet , you cannot be sworn , but you must speak the truth as much as if you were : well , what can you say ? hyet . i askt margaret edwards if she had been at mrs. monington's : she said she had ; i askt her if she knew mr. kerne ? she said she did not . l. ch. j. was she upon her oath when you askt her this ? hyet . no my lord. l. ch. j. have you any more witnesses ? pris . call mr. weston's maid . l. ch. j. what can you say ? west . m. i saw those two women talking together , and that woman instructed the other what she should say . l. ch. j. what say you to this ? edw. and jones . my lord , we did not . l. ch. j. look you , they both deny it on their oaths . l. ch. j. how often between the first time and the twenty ninth of may was twelvemonth , did you see mr. kerne ? edwards . twice or thrice in weobly . l. ch. j. what can you say for your self ? pris . my lord , i am very happy that i receive my tryal before your lordship . l. ch. j. come , setting aside your apologies , tell what you have to say ; if you have any more witnesses , call them . pris . my lord , here are several witnesses who will prove that that woman was never at mrs. monington's . l. ch. j. that 's very improbable ; but call whom you will. pris . my lord , here 's mrs. monington , the person she pretends shewed her up , will swear she never saw the woman in her life ; and upon my salvation i never saw either of them before . l. ch. j. mrs. monington , the law will not allow you to be sworn , but i presume that a person of your quality will speak the truth , as much as if you were upon your oath . do you know margaret edwards ? mrs. mon. my lord , i do not . l. ch. j. woman , tell mrs. monington from whom you came . edwards . i came from james harris of lempster . l. ch. j. mrs. monington , do you know james harris of lempster ? mrs. mon. my lord , i do not . l. ch. j. do you remember that about may was twelvemonth this woman came to you for physick for a woman that was sick ? mrs. mon. a great many people come to me on that errand , so that it is impossible for me to remember any particular person . l. ch. j. did you ever take up that woman to hear mass ? mrs. mon. that i am sure i did not , for i never took up any stranger in my life . l. ch. j. did mrs. mon. know you by face or by name ? edwards . i had been at the house several times , but this time i was carried up to mrs. monington by mary lewis her maid : mrs. monington told me that she was very glad that i was sent , for she said she would not give the man so just an account because he was a man. l. ch. j. mrs. mon. do you remember this ? mrs. mon. this is frequent . edwards . then she told me that i must put a plaister of diapalma to the womans back , and give her a drink of malt with raisins , &c. mrs. mon. as for the plaister , 't is possibly i may prescribe it , but the drink is no receipt of mine . edwards . my lord , the maid when i came in , was making a cheese in the dairy , and i askt for mrs. monington , and she told me she was within , and straightway brought me up to her : mrs. monington in a little time fell into discourse with me about religion ; and understanding what i was , desired me to go into the chamber with her . l. ch. j. what kind of chappel was it ? edwards . i will give an account of it as well as i can remember : when we came up stairs , we turn'd in at a door on the right hand the altar stood just before the door ; it was richly adorn'd , the altar-cloth was white , and a fine crucisix on the altar . mrs. mon. what were the cushions of ? edwards . as i remember they were needle-work . l. ch. j. what was the chappel adorn'd with ? edwards . with abundance of pictures : i think the window was on the left hand of the altar . mrs. mon. she has fail'd in the first description , for we go not off the stairs into the chappel , as she says ; neither is it adorn'd in the manner as she says it is , nor is there any needle-work . here is a maid that i deliver all my medicines to , that perhaps can give a better account whether this woman were at my house , than i can . l. ch. j. call the maid . you wait on mrs. monington , did you ever see that woman ? maid . no. l. ch. j. i 'll shew you how you shall remember her : she came to mrs. monington on the behalf of one harris's wife , and askt if she were within , and you carried her to your mistriss . edwards . my lord , i was there several times besides this , for i carried the child mr. thomas monington thither several times . l. ch. j. do you remember this ? mrs. mon. i do not remember that she ever brought the child to me , but another . edw. my lord , i always lay with him , and tended him , and carried him abroad . l. ch. j. if you have any thing more to say , speak . what say you for your self ? pris . i hope your lordship will summ up the evidence . l. ch. j. that i will : i will tell the jury all i can remember on both sides ; i will not shed innocent blood , neither will i help the guilty ; for i , by the duty of my place , am counsel for the prisoner in all things fit and legal . pris . i desire the statute may be read . l. ch. j. let it be read . what statute do you mean , that of eliz ? pris . yes my lord. then the statute was read . pris . now gentlemen , i desire you to take into consideration whether my blood shall be drawn by the evidence of a woman , that says she saw me give a wafer ; or on that evidence of the other , who says she heard me read she knows not what through a wall : my lord , it is an oppression that statutes should be construed otherwise than they are intended . i hope my lord , that the statute will not take hold of a man for saying mass , for many say masses that are not in order . l. ch. j. it is one of the greatest evidence to prove a man to be a priest that can be , for we cannot think of bringing witnesses who saw you take orders : do any say mass but priests ? is it lawful for any one but a priest to say mass ? pris . that of bread and wine they do not , but the other they do . l. ch. j. do any bury or christen but priests ? pris . yes they do in extremis ; and , my lord , i do acknowledge that tread prayers sometimes , and sometimes others did it . and i desire your lordship and the jury will take notice , that i have taken the oaths of allegiance and supremacy . l. ch. j. is that all you have to say ? pris . yes , my lord. l. ch. j. then gentlemen of the jury , the matter you are to try is , whether charles kerne the prisoner at the bar , be a popish priest : an englishman i suppose he does not deny himself to be ; the question is then if he be a romish priest ? if so , he is guilty of high treason by the statute of of eliz. this was a law made for the preservation of the queen , for the preservation of our religion , and for the preservation of all protestants . the witnesses are margaret edwards and mary jones : margaret says , the first time that she saw the prisoner was at mr. wigmore's , who told her it was mr. kerne ; and she says that she hath seen him several times since ; twice or thrice at weobley , and the last time was the twenty ninth of may was twelvemonth at mrs. monington's , where she saw him deliver the wafer , which is the sacrament , to four persons that were there , but she her self did not receive it ; and then she gives you an account of the reason of her coming then to mrs. monington's , which was at the request of one harris whose wife was sick , to seek some remedy from mrs. monington for the sick woman : she tells you how the maid brought her up to her mistriss , how she acquainted her with her errand , what advice mrs. monington gave her for the sick woman , and how that mrs. monington understanding what religion she was of , took her into the chappel , whereof she gives you a description . 't is very probable she may go on such an errand , and yet mrs. monington not know her ; but mrs. monington cannot positively say , but believes she was never there : mr. kerne , i suppose , will not deny but that he who gives the wafer is a priest . pris . there is blessed bread which others may give . l. ch. j. when you give such bread , do you not say accipe corpus christi ? pris . we use no such words . ( but it appeared upon his own repeating of the latin words they used upon the giving the sacrament , that those were part of the words . ) l. ch. j. the prisoner made an offer to prove some disagreement between the witnesses ; 't is true , they did differ in some small things , as the saying the word mass , but from hence can no great matter be infer'd against the evidence ; so here is one positive evidence . there must indeed be two witnesses ; now the question will be about the second womans testimony : she says she knew mr. kerne about eight years ago , when she lived at mr. somersets , and that mr. kerne lived in the house about half a year : she tells you that she hath seen several persons come thither , and amongst the rest she says , that one sunday morning several persons came thither and went up with mr. kerne , and that she was so curious as to hearken , and did hear mr. kerne say something in an unknown tongue : kerne objects that she could not know it was his voice , but for that , i think men are easily distinguished by their voices , but that i must leave to your consideration . but now the main question will be , what it was she heard him say ? mr. kerne says that in times of straitness , persons that are not priests may read prayers , and so perhaps he may be then reading the collects . but then again : she says there was a child christned in the house , and no one there but mr. somerset and his wife , mr. latchet and his wife , and mr. kerne , to do it : she did not see him christen it , and 't is true likewise what he says , that in their church they allow others , as midwives , to christen in extremis ; not that he confesses he did christen . l. ch. j. call mary jones again . mary jones , was it a sickly child ? jones . no , my lord. l. ch. j. then that is answered : so that if you believe that he did christen the child , there are two witnesses against him : i must leave it with you as a tender point on both sides ; i would not shed innocent blood , neither would i willingly let a popish priest escape : there is one positive witness , and if you believe upon the womans hearing his voice , that he did say mass , or did christen , for i must confess she says she did not see him christen , then you must find him guilty : so i leave it to you upon the whole matter . the jury return'd and were call'd over . william barret , &c. cl. arr. goaler , set up charles kerne . gentlemen , are you agreed of your verdict ? jury . yes . cl. who shall say for you ? jury . the foreman . cl. look upon the prisoner : what say you , is charles kerne guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman , not guilty . finis . there is lately printed the lord chief justice scroggs his speech , in the king's bench , the first day of this michaelmas term , . occasioned by the many libellous pamphlets which are published against law , to the scandal of the government and publick justice . together with what was declared at the same time on the same occasion , in open court , by mr. justice jones , and mr. justice dolbin . sold by robert pawlett at the bible in chancery lane. an account of the proceedings against nathaniel thomson, upon his tryal at the kings bench-bar westminster who was tryed, and found guilty on wednesday the th of november . for printing a dangerous and seditious libel, intitled the prodigal return'd home, asserting the popes supremacy in ecclesiastical affaires, &c. thompson, nathaniel, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an account of the proceedings against nathaniel thomson, upon his tryal at the kings bench-bar westminster who was tryed, and found guilty on wednesday the th of november . for printing a dangerous and seditious libel, intitled the prodigal return'd home, asserting the popes supremacy in ecclesiastical affaires, &c. thompson, nathaniel, d. . england and wales. court of king's bench. sheet ([ ] p.) printed for a. banks, london : . "the prodigal return'd home" is attributed to e. lydeott. reproduction of the original in the henry e. huntington library and art gallery. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng e. l. -- (e. lydeott). -- prodigal return'd home -- early works to . trials (seditious libel) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an account of the proceedings against nathaniel thomson , upon his tryal at the kings bench-bar westminster , who was tryed , and found guilty on wednesday the th of november . for printing a dangerous and seditious libel , intitled the prodigal return'd home , asserting the popes supremacy in ecclesiastical affaires , &c. the house of nathaniel thompson the printer , upon information , that divers seditious books or papers , were printed by him : and especially , a book intituled the prodigal returned home ; asserting the popes supremacy in ecclesiastical affairs being searched , &c. a considerable quantity of those books , were found and seized by mr. stephens messenger to the press ; as likewise , a book known by the name of doleman about succession , whereupon mr. thomson by virtue of a warrant , being taken into custody , after some examination was committed to newgate , bail not being accepted , in a case of such a dangerous consequence ; notwithstanding , he moved by his counsel at the kings-bench bar , for a habeas corpus , which after some difficulty he obtained , and was thereupon removed corpus cum causa , to the kings-bench , and charged with an indictment of trespass and misdemeanours , for printing the said seditious and dangerous libel ; upon which , the tryal come on upon nisi prius , on the th of november . when as the council for the king , after the juries being impanell'd , and sworn , opened the case , informing the jurors that nathaniel thomson the defendant , stood indicted , for printing a seditious and dangerous book or libel , asserting the pope's supremacy above the kings , in order to withdraw his majesties subjects from their allegiance , and to bring a scandal upon the e●●●●lished government &c. and that divers of the said books , intitled the pr 〈…〉 ed home , had been found in his house , that he had been noted for a pe 〈…〉 had accustomed himself to print and disperse libells &c. which accordingly ●pear to them upon evidence to this effect the i 〈…〉 that being informed by one alexander banks , not long before in service with mr. thomson , that several ill books seditious and dangerous to the government , had been printed by his master , and that many had been dispos'd of , and that himself had help'd to compose part of a book , called the prodigal returned home , and that he doubted not , if search was speedily made , some part of them might be found in the house , he on the th of october last , taking to his assistance one mr. clinch a constable , and suddenly entring the house , found several of those books in quires , and that he found another seditious book , in the hands of mr. thomsons maid servant , which she had taken from her mistriss , further urging , that he had formerly printed and published the appeal , and the libellous pamphlet intitled the noble peers speech , &c. and that mr. thomson since his confinement , had confessed he had printed three hundred of the books , for which he was brought upon his tryal , but that he had done them for a gentle man , that was to carry them beyond the seas , not designing to disperse them in england , and that he had named the author , but his name he could not well remember : the evidence having proceeded thus far against the prisoner , alexander banks was examined , and demanded whether he had not composed part of the book in question , who with many abrupt stammerings , endeavoured to deny it , although he had formerly sworn it , and his examination taken by mr. recorder , produced , for which willfull retraction , being sharply reproved , mr. clinch the constable was examined , who confirmed all that mr. stephens had sworn , in relation to the finding the books in the house of mr. thomson , adding , that meeting with mrs. thomson , and perceiving her to hold something slyly behind her , he demanded what it was , to which she replied nothing , but he pressing her to see it , her maid took it out of her hand , and went about to escape with it , but was taken , and the book seized , which imported matter of very evil consequence . notwithstanding , the evidence being thus full , that the jurors might the better understand the malicious design of the libel , divers paragraphs on which the prosecution was grounded , were read , importing , that the proselites of the reformed churches , by reason of the heresie they embraced , were not capable of salvation , and that st. peter being once appointed head of the church , the pope as his successor , derived this power from him , and that all ecclesiastical dignities must of necessity hold of him and the bishops &c. ought to be of his constituting , insinuating how gregory the great , had the whole power of ecclesiastical affaires in his hands , and that christian princes intermedled not therein , when he sent st. augustine and his monks into this nation , who established the romish religion , and subjected the ecclesiasticks to the sea of rome , in fine , it altogether appeared to justifie the romish religion , and plead for the popes supremacy , magnifying the pontifical prelates , and justifying them in their usurpation , and unlawful claime . to this the prisoners council made reply , that he hoped what had been proved , would not extend to make his client guilty of publishing the books ( which he could not deny were ill and not justifiable ) for as much as it did not appear , he had exposed any of them to sail , to which it was replied , that he had confessed he had printed them , and it could not be imagined he designed them for wast paper , or to dispose of to any other end , than to disperse them , or that they might be dispersed , and that such things were of ill consequence , nor had this been the first libel the prisoner had printed , as had appeared upon evidence , when little or no other defence being made , the right honourable the lord chief justice , gave the charge , fully summing up the evidence , and minding them especially , of what the prisoner had voluntarily confessed , laying open the dangerous effects such libells might produce ; declaring , that upon the evident proof they had before them , and the confession of the prisoner which had been sworn , they could no less then find him guilty , whereupon laying their heads together , without going from the bar , they gave in their verdict , that nathaniel thomson was guilty of the trespass , &c. and he continued in order , to receive the judgment of the court. a narrative of the proceedings and tryal of mr. francis johnson, a franciscan, at worcester last summer-assizes anno dom. written with his own hand as followeth. wall, john, saint, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing n estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a narrative of the proceedings and tryal of mr. francis johnson, a franciscan, at worcester last summer-assizes anno dom. written with his own hand as followeth. wall, john, saint, - . , p. s.n., [london : ] caption title. imprint suggested by wing. reproduction of the original in the harvard law school library. with: mr. johnson's speech : which he deliver'd to his friend to be printed (as he mention'd at the place of execution). created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng wall, john, -- saint, - . popish plot, . trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a narrative of the proceedings and tryal of mr. francis johnson a franciscan , at worcester , last summer-assizes , anno dom. . written with his own hand as followeth . to which is annexed his speech at his execution , august . . i being at london on all-saints-day , when the proclamation came forth to command all catholiques to depart from thence by the friday following , i obeyed , and came to a friends house in worcestershire , not intending to stay there ; but the king 's second proclamation being presently published , that no catholique should walk above five miles without being stopt , and carried before a justice to have the oaths tendred , i asked counsel of the wisest i could , both of protestants ( whereof one was a lawyer ) and another a constable , as also of catholiques , whether that proclamation did so strongly oblige , that it permitted me no longer to go further ? they all concluded it was not secure to go , so i resolved to obey , and stay where i was , and with good reason . first , because all catholiques are obliged to obey the king's commands in all things that are not against our religion and conscience , and his commands in this nature are against neither . secondly , should i have disobeyed , and have been taken , in penalty i should have suffered , which would not have been so directly for my conscience and religion sake , as for disobeying the king's command ; because in case i should be taken by staying there in obedience to the proclamation , and be carried before the justices to have the oaths offered , whatever i was to suffer for refusing them , i should have this double comfort before god , and the king ; before the king , because i rather chose to go to prison , than to remove from his law , by taking the oaths against my conscience — therefore i was taken and put in prison . the manner of my being taken was as followeth . the sheriff's deputy came to the house where i was with six or eight men , to arrest a gentleman in the house for debt : the officers coming into the house in the morning , and not finding the person they came for , broke down all the doors , and among the rest mine , before i was out of bed , and by a mistake arrested me , instead of the other gentleman ; and although the deputy , coming into my chamber , looking on me , told them they were deceived , for i was not the man they came for ; yet other soldiers coming into my chamber , one of them said he knew me : it seems he had been a servant in the house seven years before , therefore he said he would have me to the justices , and bid his companions secure me , and so they did , and would not let me go out of their sight , until they carried me before the justice ; and this they did , without either constable , or warrant , law or justice . when i came before the justice of peace , i told him the occasion that had brought me to him ; and if i would have taken the oaths , i had been presently freed : but i told them that persuaded me to take the oaths , that it was against the faith and religion i professed , and against my conscience , and i would never offend against either , by so complying , whatever i suffered for the contrary . the justice's wife was compassion ate towards me , and desiring to speak privately with me , she used her best persuasions to me to comply with what was desired of me concerning the taking the oaths , for fear of further trouble or danger . i answered her with thanks , and told her , that i was sorry she had no better opinion of me , than to think i had prosest such a faith and religion all my life-time , and now upon the trial could be moved with any fear or danger ( which god sorbid . ) i told her it was such a faith , that in it i deposed my soul , my confidence , heaven and eternal life , and therefore i neve r did , nor ( by god's grace ) never would fear to suffer for it what pleased god ; for who could fear even death itself of the body whose life is momentary , for profession of that faith wherein he deposeth the eternal life of his soul ? this answer satisfi'd both her and my self , for i was resolved to make a publick profession of my faith and religion ; upon which i return'd to the justice , who thought fit i should go to another justice , who was sir john packington , whither also he went with me . when i came to sir john , he asked me who i was ? i answered him , i was a gentleman sufficiently known for these years in worcestershire to all sorts of people . he asked me of what calling i was ? i answered him , of none . he asked me what estate i had ? i answered , i was no landed man. then he asked me , if i would take the oaths ? i answered , i understood them not . he replied , will you take them , or will you not ? i told him if he pleased to let me see them , i should return him my answer . now the reason why i desired to see the oaths , was , because i was resolved to make a publick declaration of my faith , that they were against my conscience , and therefore by declaring publickly the reasons why i could not take them , it should be publickly known , that whatsoever i was to suffer for not taking them , was for no other cause but for my faith and religion , because i would not swear against my conscience — for , would i have taken them , i had been there also freed . when the oaths were brought to me , they told me i must read them out aloud , but i told them that because it was a publick place , and many there present of several degrees , as well of the housholders , as strangers , i feared least reading them aloud , some that heard me might think i sware what i read , and so might go and report they heard me take the oaths before the justices . but they declared they would not think so l so i read them over and over , which when i had done , i said aloud , god save the king ; and then declared to both the justices , and all the rest , in this manner . i am ready to swear as followeth : that i ever all my life-time have been , and now am , and ever will be to my last breath , as saithful a subject to the king , as any subject whatsoever , and as faithful as if i should take the oaths now offered by them to me an hundred times over ▪ but as for taking these oaths offered me , i could not take them whatever i suffered , and the reason was , because i understood what an oath was , and the conditions which god has prescribed to us , before any could call him to witness lawfully in taking of any such oaths . the conditions which god has prescribed i told them were these . thou shalt swear the lord liveth in truth , and in judgment , and in righteousness ; so that in every oath , the life of god , the truth of god , the judgment of god and his righteousness , are included by all which we swear , and the oath we take is to have all these conditions , truth , judgment , and righteousness , jerem. . — therefore if i should take these oaths which are concerning damnable doctrines and heresies , i must call god to witness that i no more believe him to be a living god and true god , a just and righteous god , than i believe these things contained in the oaths to be true , just and righteous , to swear to which oaths i do not nor cannot in my conscience believe to be so . for , before i or any man else can understand the contents of these oaths to be true , as to call god to witness that i believe them to be as true , just and righteous , i must be able to desine what is faith or heresie in these contents i swear to , and i must know the full extent of all cases of this nature that god has left to all temporal princes and their power ; i must also understand the full extent of all cases of this nature of power spiritual which god hath left in his church in or over christian kingdoms of temporal monarchs , which power in these oaths i am to swear on the one side , and forswearing the other . i told them i was not of capacity nor knowledge to set the confines to each power , or to determine or define the extent given by god to all in this nature , so as to swear and call god to witness i am as sure of it , as i am sure he is a living god , as i must do if i take these oaths , the extent of which i did not understand in my conscience to be so as to believe them ; therefore i could not nor would not swear to them . i having spoken these things , no body said any more to me , but the justices going out of the hall made my mittimus and sentence for worcester prison , because i would not take the oaths they tendred me . i have been since called to the bar at the sessions , where i spake to the same effect before judge street , and the justices , as i had spoken before to sir john packington , having first asked their leave to speak , which they gave me for a little time , and then bid me return to the prison . — but first they were urgent with me to answer positively , ay or no , was i a jesuitical priest , or was i not ? to which i answered , it was an easie thing for me to say no , but by saying no , i might prejudice others , who hereafter being asked the same question , if they did not answer no , it might be an argument that they were guilty , if they did not deny it as others before them had done . — therefore i desired that what proof could be brought against me , might be produced against me , and i would answer for my self : but i desired i might not be urged to answer ay or no , to any thing , before some witness or argument came against me ; for , i told them in such cases , neither law of god nor man obliged any one ( although he was guilty ) to bear witness against himself without some proof were alledged against him , for , that was no less than to be his own executioner . the judge answered there were witnesses would swear against me . i answered , if witnesses could make out what they sware of me , then my life was at the king's mercy : but in the mean time i told them i remained guiltless , though i did not answer them to their questions ay or no , because i told them that being my saying no in my own behalf would not be sufficient testimony to acquit me , therefore there was no reason why any man should be urged to say ay to accuse ones self though he was guilty . upon this the judge sent me to prison again at worcester , where now i am , which imprisonment , in these times especially , when none can send to their friends , nor friends come to them , is the best means to teach us how to put our confidence in god alone in all things ; and then he will make his promise good , that all things shall be added to us , luke . which chapter , if every one would read , and make good use of , a prison would be better than a palace ; and a confinement for religion , and a good conscience-sake , more pleasant than all the liberties the world could afford . as for my own part , god give me his grace , and all faithful christians their prayers , i am happy enough ; and as for others , i beseech god that the evil example of those that swear against their consciences , may not be guides for the rest to follow , nor their deeds a rule to their actions . we all ought to follow the narrow way , though there be many difficulties in it : it 's an easie thing to run the blind way of liberty , but god deliver us all from broad , sweet ways . we know what job saith of libertines , they lead their lives in the goods of this world , and in a moment they descend into hell. but , as our saviour saith , what doth it profit a man to gain the world , and lose his soul ? god gave job a goodly increase for all the riches he took from him , and blest his latter end more than his beginning , and gave him an hundred and forty years of flourishing life for his short affliction , in which , his constancy and faith in god was tried ; and our saviour promiseth an hundred-fold to all that leave goods , and every thing willingly for his fake . — who well considers this , will be content to leave both ▪ friends and fortunes , and freedom by imprisonment , for their faith and religion-sake , till such time as it shall please god and the king ( in obedience to whose command they suffer ) to release them . and in the mean time they will have this comfort , that they give a testimony they fear god , and honour the king ; they fear god , because they choose rather to suffer persecution , than swear against their consciences ; they honor the king , because they are willing to suffer the penalties he commands , and yet remain faithful subjects to him , whom god long preserve , with his parliament and people , in all happiness . on tuesday , april . . i came before judge atkins at worcester , to have my cause tryed at the sessions , having been committed five months before to worcester-castle by two justices of the peace , sir john packinton , and mr. townson , because i refused the oaths of supremacy and allegiance , and therefore was suspected to be a jesuitical priest . the manner of my tryal was as followeth . four witnesses were brought in against me ; three of them were forced by warrant to come in , whether they would or no , from several towns , and were fore'd to speak all that they knew , had heard , or seen , concerning me ; neither i , nor any of my friends knowing , that any would be compelled so to do , before the time of my tryal was come . the fourth witness came of his own accord for lucre sake , who , the same day that i was first brought to worcester prison , offered himself to swear before the mayor of the town , that i was a priest , before ever he came to see who i was . the testimony which he gave against me before the judge , was this . he swore he had been at confession with me , and that he had received the sacrament at my hands about two years before at his fathers house , whil'st he was a catholique ; and after he became a protestant he said i told him afterward he should turn back from whence he had fallen , else he would be damned . the other three witnesses that were forced to come in against me , when they came before the grand jury , and were urged to take their oaths , to tell that which they never had known nor seen concerning my being a priest , they all unanimously declared , that they had nothing to say against me , and that they were by violence forced to appear there , and therefore they said they would never swear nor say any thing against me , for they knew nothing to accuse me of : which when the jury heard , they called for the jaylor to take the party that fitst denied to swear to prison , thinking by this violent way of proceeding so to afright them , that they should say something , out of which advantage should be taken against me ; which thē better to effect , they made them first lay their hands on the bible , and then kiss it , which they did . then the jury told them , that now they were to tell all the truth according as they were asked . — first they asked whether any of them had ever heard me read ? one answered , yes , the bible , and sometimes any other book . then they asked , whether they had ever seen me pray ? it was answered , yes . then they asked what cloaths i had on when i prayed ? and whether i used to change my cloaths when i came to pray ? in these and other like questions they sifted them , to get out any thing that might do me hurt . but how charitable or christian-like these proceedings of the jury were , let the world judge now , as god will hereafter ; for , if this be a charitable way of proceeding among christians , that our neighbors should by such strange violence , as by warrant and oath be brought against their wills from any part of england , to swear whatever they have seen , heard , or known of their neighbors , what horrid confusions and odium's must this make among all sorts of people both friends and foes ? — but i do not blame those three witnesses , after they had been inconsiderately induced to lay their hands upon the bible , and kist it ; i suppose they judged themselves bound to say what they did . after this , when the jury had got out of them what they could , the four witnesses and i were called before the judge . the first witness that came to swear against me , as the custom is , repeated his testimony over again before the judge , and so did the other three that were forced ; which when i heard how absurd and insignificant some of their testimonies were , i inconsiderately smiled , at which the judge being offended , i humbly begged his pardon , and told him i was sorry for it . — but forasmuch as laughing or smiling were passions of nature , over which no man had a free course or power , i hoped and beseeched him not to impute it to me ; he told me he would not be displeased at me for it . then he asking me , whether i was guilty , or not guilty of my accusations ? and i answering , not guilty , he bad me shew it , by answering for my self ; i told him i was ready to do it ; but told him first , i had an humble petition to his lordship , which was , that i desired a full and free liberty without hindrance to answer to every objection , and plead for my self ; i also desired he would reflect in my behalf , that as he was to be my judge , so he was to be my advocate . and forasmuch as all earthly judges were to imitate the heavenly judge , who as advocate ten thousand times mitigates the severity of a judge , whil'st his hand of mercy is infinitely stretched forth beyond the hand of judgment . and therefore i begged of his lordship , that i might find the favor of an advocate from him , rather than the tigor of a judge , especially in those things which according to law may be advantageous or disadvantageous to me , which i understanding not how to make the best use of them , desired his lordship would vouchsafe to do it for me ; which that the better he might be moved to do , i desired he would be pleased to consider that this my life and concerns were ( in comparison of others greater ) not so much considerable , i being but a private person , yet my little was to me much , because my little was my all ; and my life to me were as much as caesars or solomons were to them ; and as great a gift from god to me , as theirs to them ; and therefore god has laid as great an obligation on me to defend my self and my life , as he had on them for theirs , and also had given to every one a strict command not to impair or prejudice me in the least , no more than the greatest potentate . therefore being i was now brought before him in a case , where the world as much as concerns me , lay at stake , and my life , and my credit , i did humbly beseech his lordship to proceed accordingly with me , as i presumed according to his prudence and worth he would . he assented to what i petitioned , and did bid me speak for my self . in answer therefore to the first voluntary witness against me , i told his lordship it was true , i had been at such a night at his fathers house , and accordingly , as i was desired by him , i staid all night . — but as for this witness , i was a stranger to him , and he to me , as he confest himself . then the judge asked him , whether he knew me before or no ? for he declared publickly , that he never knew me , nor saw me before or since , till he saw me at worcester , and yet he said the next morning he made his confession to me , and i gave him the communion at mass as he supposed in my chamber ; but he said that none of all the family was present at that time , only he and i alone ; whereupon i desired the judge to consider what possible likelihood could be of the truth in this his affirmation , that i should come to a house where i was acquainted with them all , father , mother , and children , with all but this witness , who as he declared knew me not , nor ever had seen me before , what likelihood is there i should say mass before him alone , hear his confession , and give him the sacrament , and so go away without any one of the family ( with whom i was so well acquainted ) hearing , seeing , or knowing the least of this that past between him and me . — i therefore desired my lord to ask him , whether i spake of confession or communion ? or what i said to him when i gave it him ? or whether i told him i would give him the sacrament ? which when the judge had asked him , he answered , that indeed i never had spoken to him either about confession or communion to come to either ; neither did he know what i said to him , when i gave him bread like a wafer ; but he of his own accord did desire me to hear his confession , and give him the wafer which he took . — whereupon the judge asked how it came to pass that he , never having known nor seen me before , nor i spoke with him about confession or communion , how could he now tell who i was , or how could he desire such a thing of me who was a meer stranger to him , neither of us knowing any thing of one anothers condition ; sure , said the judge , we do not give the communion on such terms . — to which he answered , that his father had told him , that if he would he might confess to me , and that i would give him the communion . — so although he had sworn before , that none in the house was witness , or saw him confess or receive , yet rather than be confounded , he would bring his father into confusion , and accuse him as guilty of being the cause of what he did , which might be the ruine of his family . but the judge taking no notice of what he had accused his father , spake to me , and told me , by this it might appear , that i had taken upon me what belonged to the priests office , by hearing his confession , and giving him the wafer . to which i replied , that with his leave , i would make it appear , that all which this witness had said against me , did not at all prove me to be a priest , or to have taken the office of a priest upon me ; for all he said i had done , i might do it lawfully though no priest , so might other men that never were nor would be priests do the same , as many thousands had done and did do through the world . he asked me how i could prove that ? i answered , as to his confession he spoke of , in the nature he declared it , it was only an act of charity for me to do as i did , and every christians duty obliges every man to do the same that he said i had done for him , and the same was practised by all sects whatsoever , that never knew what belonged to priesthood ; for , if our neighbor have any thing that perplexed his mind , there is no better way to ease it , than by speaking of it to any whom he supposed might know how to take away or mitigate his grievances by counsel or advice ; and therefore this witness having understood something from his father , that might move him to confide in me , came of his own accord , as he said he did , to impart his mind to me , and therefore i should not have fulfilled christian duty , if i should have slighted his trouble , and not have given him leave to ease his mind to me , and , in the best way i could , endeavor to assist him , and divert his trouble , though i was a stranger , being that he of his own accord , as he said , came to me for that intent , and therefore i desired the judge to ask him , if it were otherwise than what i had told his lordship ? the judge replied that i went further ; for , as he says , i gave him the wafer or communion . i answered , that suppose i had given him the wafer or communion ( which whether i did or no i was not certain ) yet according to his own word , this could no way prove that i gave him the sacrament ; for , let him speak if i told him it was so ; or let him declare if i said any thing to him concerning the communion , or what i said ; he could not say i did , only i gave him something ; therefore i told the judge , that if he pleased to give me leave , i would tell his lordship what practice ever had been , and is constantly used in the catholick church throughout the world , in giving hollowed bread or water , which is nothing belonging to the communion or sacrament ; for , i told my lord , as there was holy water kept in all private houses , as well as in the chapels , and places of prayer , so there was also holy bread , and sometimes of the same nature as the wafer or the communion , and of this as well as of the other sort of bread , was on sundays , and other certain daies , not consecrated as the communion , but only blessed as holy water by the word and prayer , and so distributed to men , women , and little children , of two or three years old ; and such like hallowed bread thousands of men , women and children , take , and may carry about them , and keep in their houses , and eat it at any time , and give it when , and to whom they would , to children , or others ; and for my part , i have many times in my life taken it from others at any time ; when i had it , or was in any private house where i found it , i have taken it to eat my self , and given it to any man , woman , or child , sometime they desiring it , sometime of my own accord i gave it , and so possibly i have given it to the man that witnesseth here against me ; and if he know the contrary , but that it was as i said , i desire that he would speak : but he had nothing to say of me to the contrary . i appealed to my lord to judge whether this testimony , or any other testimony this witness brought against me , were of any force or value to make me guilty in this matter , which no waies could be made out against me . i proceeded therefore to answer his third accusation against me , which was , that i should have told him , that if he did not return to the faith from whence he had fallen , he would be damned . to this my answer to my lord was , that i had all my life time been so fearful of such rash judgment , that i do declare it in the presence of god , as i did before him , that i had rather dye , than presume to pronounce the sentence of damnation against any man ; but i told his lordship , that if he pleased to give me leave , i would relate what i had said to him , and others , upon the like occasion , which the judge being willing to hear , i told him , that i being at this man's mother-in-law's house , who was of no religion , no more than this witness , and the mother desiring to hear what catholicks held , and the reasons for which we believe such points of faith , i told her what we held , and shewed her the proofs for what we held in her own bible , and when she made any difficulty whether such texts of scripture were to be understood as we understood them , or in any other sense , i shewed her out of the protestant practice of piety , and out of the protestant common prayer-book , that not only catholicks ▪ but all protestants understood them in such a sense ; and she having those books by her , i turned those places to her to read in her own books , and so she did , and yet neither the bible , nor common prayer-books , nor practice of piety , could satisfie , or make her believe ; whereupon i told her , that if she were a christian , she must believe something ; for , as she believed , so she should be saved : — i told her also what the bible declared to her , that without faith it was impossible to please god , and i bad her consider the text that saith , whatsoever is not of faith is sin ; as also the text that saith , the just man liveth by faith , and desired her to read those words of our saviour , where he saith , he that believeth shall be saved , but he that believeth not shall be damned ; which she did read ; and this witness being then present , and i saying the same then before him , i suppose , from this text , he accused me that i should say , he would be damned , because i repeated , and shewed them our saviour's words , as they appear in that place of scripture . i having thus answered all the testimonies this witness could bring in against me , i referred my self to his lordship , and all the bench , to judge whether any thing this witness had said against me , would make me guilty : the judge said but little to it , but called for the next witness ( who was father to this first ) who was so much grieved at the proceedings of his ungracious son , that he could not forbear to shed tears all the time that his son produced such ●ccusations against me ; so that he appeared more witness against his son's ungodliness , than a witness against me : yet the judge asked him many questions , whether he had ever heard , seen , or known any such or such things of or from me : to all which questions he answered , no , he knew nothing against me ; so that the judge seeing he shewed so much kidness , he asked him what he was ? he answered , a catholick ; whereupon the judge bade him go away , saying , he was too much my friend , and therefore he would not accept of him as a witness , but called the third . this witness was an old man , and very deaf , who was forced to come against me by a warrant , swore against his will : the judge asked him several questions , whether he heard me say any prayers ; he answered , yes , but he could not well understand or hear what they were , because he was so deaf ; he asked them whether they were english or latin ? he answered , he could not well tell , he thought it was both ; and , i think , it might be neither , for ought he could hear , he was so very deaf : then he asked him what cloaths i had on ? he answered , he could not well tell ; i had something on that was white , a surplice he thought ; and the judge was willing to suppose this to be a priests habit at mass , or when he gave the sacrament ; but i told his lordship , that this could be no proof of any such matter , because , all over the world , among catholicks , such garments were worn by thousands in time of prayer , who never were , nor will be priests , as is well known to those that have been travellers : and i told his lordship , that if he pleased to call for them , there may be several travellers , of several sects and opinions present in the hall , that would be sufficient witnesses as well of this , as of the holy bread and water , which the other witness as well as this old man said i had given them , which they suppose to be the sacrament ; but the judge would call for none , but called for the fourth witness . — this witness was a young woman , who was also by violence forc'd to come and swear what she had heard , seen or known concerning me about the matter in question . the judge asked her whether i had taught her any thing , whether she had been at confession or communion , what i said to her , what pennance i gave her ; and he asked also the like questions of the old man , the former witness , to all which they were both very unwilling to answer ; for which some of the rude people curst the old man for an old doting fellow , and were as much vexed at the young woman , because she was so dejected , that she could not speak , but lookt like one that was half dead , as some of the people said in anger she was so . the judge perceiving in what condition she was , said aloud , what men are these priests that have such power over people , that they are not able to speak against them ; he therefore bid them remember they were in the presence of god , and were bound in conscience to speak the truth of what they had heard or seen ; so at last they owned that i had read in the bible , and other books to them , and that they had confest what troubled them , and had received something like a wafer from me , and that they had believed what i read to them ; yet they both declared publickly , that i did not bid them come to confession , or take the wafer or bread ; and when they took it , that i did not tell them it was the sacrament , neither did they know whether it was or no : by all which it appeared according to the letter of the law , and in conscience , that none of these testimonies were of sufficient force to make me guilty . a mans life is not to be taken away upon surmises , or possibilities , that this might be the communion , as well as other holy bread. for , the law requires , that it must be proved that there was an administration of the sacrament by one that had taken orders from a foreign power ; of taking orders there was not the least accusation mentioned against me by any of the witnesses , much less could it be proved , no not so much that i pretended to give the sacrament any more than it might be holy water , or holy bread , as i desired my lord to consider ; neither was it the wearing of a surplice that could prove i said mass ; for priests never wear surplices at mass : and if a mans wearing a surplice at prayer , prove him a priest , then all the singing-boys in every protestant cathedral church , and in all other churches in christendom , all those boys , though but of ten or twelve years of age , must be by consequence all popish priests ; and all jews who constantly in their synagogues put on a white garment like a surplice , as i and all travellers have seen them do when we have gone to see them pray : at these jews must be romish priests : — out of all which it evidently appears , that none of these testimonies the witnesses brought against me , were any way concluding according to justice to make me guilty of being a priest . as for my reading the bible to them , or in satisfying them in what they doubted , or bidding them say their prayers , and particularly the lord's prayer , which the last two witnesses told the judge i had done , and the like ( he fearing to answer to all the questions he asked them ) to these i answered , that i own i had done so ; whereupon the judge said , that out of this it appeared , that i had taken upon me the priests office. i told him , that with his leave i would shew how it did no ways follow ; for , out of this it only followed , that i had done the duty of a good christian , and every man in the like circumstances is bound as a christian to do the like that i had done : i told him , that they , doubting of such things , and desiring me to shew them if such places were in the bible , or not , and desiring to know what i did believe of those points , and the reasons why i believed them , i turned to such places in the bible , and read it to them , and bid them read the same themselves , which they did , and so were satisfied . and i told my lord , for what i had done , i had the scripture warrant , and scripture command also to do it , and so had every christian command to do the like ; for the scripture commands all to be redy to give an answer to every man concerning the reason of the hope which is within us , and this i had done to them , or to any other that had asked me as they did . but i told my lord withal , that i knowing the statute of perswasion , had alwaies so much regard to that , when any would discourse with me concerning my faith , or theirs , i told them , that ( being there was such a statute as the statute of perswasion ) though i was bound to give them an account of my faith and hope , if for conscience sake they asked me , yet i told them i would not incur the penalty of that statute by using any force or perswasion against their consciences ; for violent forcing of consciences was against the law of god ; yet i told them what i did believe , and shewed them the places of scripture on which my faith was grounded , according as they desired me to do for them , and then i would leave it to god and their own consciences ; and if they did not believe those texts , i had no more to say to them ; and if they did believe them , they best knew before god and their consciences what they had to do ; so that it was not my perswasion , but god and their souls salvation that was to determine them in the belief of what they read in the bible : and i bade them bear witness that i told them thus , if in case we should ever be called in question before any judge ; and thus i have discoursed , as several would bear witness for me . i told his lordship this was true , and so did those witnesses ; for , they declared publickly what i said was true , whereupon i did appeal to my lord , if i was not innocent in this point ; and as for my bidding them say their prayers , or when they desired to ease their minds by declaring what troubled them , i desired to clear my self by asking my lord , with his leave , what nation or sect in the world ought not , and did not counsel and wish their neighbours in their troubles to ease themselves by prayer to god ; and much more every good christian ought , when he understood that his brother had acted the prodigal son , offended his heavenly father , and therefore was troubled in conscience , ought , i say , to perswade him to return by repentance , and beg mercy of our father which is in heaven : i having done no more but this , have only done a pious christian duty to my neighbours , which any man , though no priest , may and ought to do the same . i having pleaded these things for my self , the judge was pleased to tell me , i had a nimble tongue , and wit , and that by those discourses i strove to make the jury attend more to my pleading for my self , than to the witnesses arguments against me : to which i replied , i spoke nothing but truth , which i ought to do to defend my self against my enemies , therefore i hoped his lordship would not be offended : but if i have exceeded ( as his lordship said i did ) because i hindered him from speaking , i humbly craved his pardon , & hoped i should obtain it , being my concerns and reasons to plead , as i did , were of no less consequence than life and death . but for all this the judge told the jury , that they were to consider the accusations of the witnesses against me , as having done such and such things which priests use to do ; neither was it necessary that the witnesses should prove me to have taken orders from foreign power , and so to prove me positively to be a priest ; for , that ( they not having seen me take orders ) they could not do , but it was sufficient they had seen me do such things , by which it might be presumed it was so . whereupon i answered , that there was never a proof yet alledged , that did or could make that appear , or be sufficient to conclude me to be so , and therefore i was no more guilty than many thousands , of whom all these things alledged against me might be verifi'd , who never were nor would be priests , as i had sufficiently shewed , why therefore should they be thought sufficient to conclude against me . i therefore desired the judge , before he sent out the jury , he would give me leave to speak a word or two to them . he answered no , he would not . i then desired his lordship would give me leave to speak again to him before them , ere they went out ; to which he assented : i therefore desired his lordship to give me leave to ask this question of him , which the jury might hear . — suppose all the proofs which had been by all the witnesses brought against me , were to be alledged against the jury , or some of them , so that if the arguments were judged by them to be of force or concluding , some of those of the jury should lose part of their estates and credit , and being in some danger of their lives , who of all the jury on whom this peril were like to fall , would judge those arguments alledged against me , sufficient to condemn them to the loss of part of their estates , or part of their credit with some danger of their lives ? i therefore desired it might be considered , that my all lay at stake , all my concerns in the world ; credit and life not only in some danger , but certainly to be condemned , if those arguments brought in by them against me should be judged to be of force . therefore i desired they would deal by me as if it were their own case , according as i had proposed it to them , and so i should give no further trouble in speaking , being it was not judged fit i should say any more ( as i had desired ) to the jury . i had only one favor more to beg of the judge before they went out , which was , that his lordship would read a paper before them which i had ready , whereby i could prove , that the first and chiefest vvitness against me , which was rogers , ought not in justice to be admitted as a competent vvitness against me , as the vvriting i offered the judge would shew ; which vvriting i gave to the judge , and he read it over privately to himself , and seeing the hand of him that wrote it at the bottom , who offered to swear for me against rogers , the judge asked where this vvitness for me was , and why i had him not ready ? i answered he was hard by in the prison for debt , if he pleased to send for him ; but the judge would not send for him . i then desired the judge that at least i , or any else here present , might read my paper publickly , that all might know it was true , that i had such a sufficient vvitness for me against rogers ; but the judge neither would let me , nor any else read it openly , but however i made bold to tell publickly all the contents of the paper , which were word for word as the vvitness wrote it with his own hand and name at the bottom ; thus — memorandum , that upon the th of december last past , or thereabouts , came three men to the castle of vvorcester , and as they came up the stairs , rogers desires one of them to call for one mr. johnson , and see if he would answer to that name or not ; and entring into the room , he asked where was mr. johnson , and which was he , though he was at that time present in the room , and none else but one man and my self drinking at the door , and in my conscience knew him not . in witness to this i 'll lay down my oath . henry holland . by this it may appear , that if the judge would let my witness appear to have sworn , i might have cast rogers , the chief witness against me ; and why it was not granted , let all that hear it judge . however , i still continued to plead , that all proofs alledged against me were insufficient , which i can make appear even in the judge's own opinion , though i did not tell him so ; for you must know , that before in his circuit , though witnesses swore against a gentleman ( whom they would have proved a priest ) that they saw him marry people and baptize , which are the actions of a priest , yet the judge declared , that because these actions might be done by such as were no priests , as well as by priests , as it appeared , because justices of the peace married people in cromwel's time , and any man or woman might at some times christen children ; therefore such common actions , as he declared , could not prove the accused gentleman to be a priest for doing them , and thereupon the judge freed him . whereupon i infer , that all the actions the witnesses sware they saw me do , as wearing a surplice , giving the wafer , exhorting to prayer , shewing points out of the bible , hearing others grievances , which they of themselves declared to me , and the like , being these are things done as well by those that were no priests , as by priests ; according to the judge's own opinion , these actions ought not to have been judged sufficient proofs against me , no more than such actions were judged sufficient against other gentlemen ; although i did not alledge this to the judge , yet it was sufficient he knew it , and might , if he had pleased , done with me accordingly , though he did not , but sending the jury out , sent me from the bar. i being afterward called again to the bar , and it being declared unto me , that the jury had found me guilty , the bill was read against me ; and then i was asked what i had to say for my self , why i should not dye , that i might speak before the sentence of death past against me . to which i answered , i only desired to know for what i was to dye ; for i have shewed that all things alledged against me heretofore , were insufficient to prove me a priest , or take away my life . the judge answered , that the jury had found me guilty , and that now there was no more to be said concerning the proof , but that i was to be condemned as a priest . to which i replied , that though the jury had found me guilty , yet i was still innocent from any guilt of death , and with his lordships permission i would prove it . he asked me how ? i answered , thus ; i had not been out of england , to take any orders from foreign power since the king's restauration to his crown , neither had i any opportunity to take any orders in england ; therefore if i were a priest , i was so before his majesty came into england : but whatever i had done before the king came into england , cannot make me now guilty , supposing i had transgressed the law before because his majesty before his return , put out several proclamations , that none should ever be troubled for their religion or conscience-sake ; and since his coming into england , he had done the same by several proclamations : and what was yet more , not long since , had set forth his declaration , that every one should freely practise his own religion of what sect or persuasion soever , which declaration , if i were a priest , i might safely relie on , as well as all others . to which the judge replied , where had i the seal to that declaration ? i answered , i never questioned but that a subject might take his king's word declared in his publick proclamation without his seal . the judge answered , however if i were a priest now in england , i was guilty . i replied , that supposing i had formerly taken orders before the king came to england , i could not altogether degrade my self , or be otherwise now , than what i was ordained then ; therefore if i were a priest , i cannot now be guilty for it , because all that ever was done before the king's restauration , in what respect soever , was all forgiven and blotted out by the king 's general pardon to all subjects , even to those who had a hand in the death of his royal father , and so the catholicks for their religion were not excluded out of the general pardon , wherefore i told his lordship i was not guilty . whereupon he told me i was guilty , and presumed far to plead so resolutely , and with such confidence before him and all the bench. i craved his pardon for my fault , but desired his lordship to consider , that i was bid speak if i had any thing to say for my self , before the sentence of death past against me , and therefore i had reason to plead home , since this was the last time i was like to speak for my life in this world , which i hope his lordship and the bench would consider ; but if notwithstanding so many proclamations , grants for liberty of conscience , and his majesty's general pardon to all who had rely'd on them , if all this would not secure me , but my believing those things had caused me to err , and my error must cause me to lose my life , i had no more to say . so the judge sate down , and pronounced against me the sentence of death , that i should be drawn , hanged , and quartered , disbowelled , my intrals burnt , my head cut off , my body to be cut in four quarters , and my quarters to be at the king's disposal . which sentence being pronounced , i bowed , and said aloud , thanks be to god , god save the king ; and i beseech god to bless your lordship , and all this honourable bench. the judge replied , you have spoken very well , i do not intend you shall dye , at least not for the present , until i know the king 's further pleasure . i was not , i thank god for it , troubled with any disturbing thoughts either against the judge for his sentence , nor the jury that gave in such a verdict , nor against any of the witnesses ; for i was then of the same mind , as by god's grace i ever shall be , esteeming them all the best friends to me in all they did or said that ever i had in my life , or ever shall have , except upon the like occasion . and i was , i thank god , so present with my self , whil'st the judge pronounced the sentence to deliver me to death , that without any concern for any thing in this world , i did actually at the same time offer my self and the world to god. after the judge was gone from the bench to the other end of the hall , i stayed with the keeper in the hall , where several protestant gentlemen , and others , who had heard my tryal , came to me , though strangers , and told me how sorry they were for me . to whom , with thanks , i replied that i was troubled they should grieve for me , or my condition , who was joyful for it my self ; for i told them i had professed this faith and religion all my life-time , which i was as sure to be true , as i was sure of the truth of god's word on which it was grounded , and therefore in it i deposed my soul , and eternal life and happiness ; and therefore should i fear to lose my temporal life for this faith , whereon my eternal life depends , i were worse than an infidel ; and whosoever should prefer the life of their bodies before their faith , their religion , or conscience , they were worse than heathens . for my own part i told them , i was as ready by god's grace to dye to morrow , as i had been to receive the sentence of death to day , and as willingly as if i had a grant of the greatest dukedom : so we sate talking half an hour , and i returned to the prison , there to remain , as long as it pleased god and the king , whom god long preserve in all happiness . there was another objection which i forgot to put in , until i had finished the former writing , and it was an objection which the judge was pleased to put against me himself , and it was that i had changed my name , and went in several places by several names . to which i answered , the reason was , because in cromwel's time , in the great troubles , our family suffered much , my father was imprisoned , and a fellow-prisoner with sir thomas ashton , both confined together , which sir thomas is now one of his majesties admirals of the fleet. and for my own part , i going beyond sea to travel , i changed my name ; and then coming into england again , before the king's restauration , i was glad to conceal my self , and go by several names , as many others of the king 's loyal subjects did , the better to be able to do his majesty the best service i could , which , according to my small ability , i did endeavor both before and since the king came into england , like a dutiful subject , and like the rest of our family , who all endeavored to serve his majesty : for i have two brothers served him , the one a voluntier at sea in sir william reeve's ship , which sir william was killed in the last engagement with the dutch ; and the other brother had a command under his royal highness the duke of york at land : therefore i hope the changing of my name on such an occasion as i did , could not be imputed as a guilt upon me , nor speak me other than a dutiful subject ; which i could have made further appear before the bench , but i did not judge it convenient to say any more to the judge there in publick . but before his lordship went out of vvorcester , i presented him with a petition , to acquaint his lordship , that i having had the honour to kiss his majesties hand , before his restauration , in the low-countries ; as also i have had the honour to be one of those whom his majesty was pleased to grace with being entertained by us , his then best subjects ; his majesty was pleased to make us a gracious promise , that when it should please god to restore him to his crown , we should not live so in banishment as then we did . of this in my petition i did acquaint the judge , and beseeched him that he would be pleased , by declaring this to the king , to endeavor to obtain some gracious favor from his majesty for me , my condition now being such , that i could never have greater need to be partaker of his gracious promise and clemency . the judge promised me he would make an address to his majesty for me in this behalf , which whether he hath done or no , i wish some body may put him in mind to do it for me . i do not here mention the place where in particular , nor the other persons to whom his majesty made that promise , but if you remember , you know i did tell you , with several other particular circumstances , which i need not here make any further mention of . the last speech of mr. francis johnson priest , of the order of st. francis , who was executed ( as a priest onely ) at worcester , upon the d of august , anno dom : . which he spake , for the most part , upon the ladder , immediately before his execution , ( but being interrupted ) and that which he did speak , being taken by an unskilful scribe , was printed by the halves , and so imperfect , that it was in some places nonsense . to correct that abuse , this which he left ( written with his own hand ) is publish'd by a friend . almighty god , out of his infinite goodness to this world , through the merits of his son christ jesus , ordained or made choice of three virtues whereby we must walk , which are these , viz. faith , hope , and charity . first , by virtue of faith , we are to believe all things that are done in this world ; secondly , by virtue of hope , we are to believe and hope for all things in another world. and the reason why christians do believe this hope , is to bring and conduct them to salvation in the other world. and if we hope in god , we cannot but believe god ; for with the mouth confession is made , but with the heart ( and through faith ) we must believe unto salvation ; so that faith is not to be trodden under foot , or to be hid under a bushel , but to be set upon a candlestick , luke . whosoever doth confess me before men , him will i confess before the angels of god ; and therefore all are bound to believe that there is but one faith ; and if but one faith , then but one christian faith. there is but one faith , one lord , one baptism ; if it be so , how can this stand with so many sectaries as there are ? if there be but one faith , how can this be ? i believe the creed of st. athanasius , ( which is in your common-prayer book ) there it is said , that whosoever will be saved , 't is necessary before all things that he hold the catholick faith ; and that if he keep not that faith whole and undefiled , he shall perish everlastingly . and as st. james saith , jam. . . he that keepeth the whole law , and yet offendeth in one point , is guilty of all ; so they that believe , must be all of the same faith. and that this ought to be done , i appeal to all the saints that are gone before , of whom it is said , that their faith was such , as by it they stopt the mouths of lyons , they turned the edge of the sword , and caused the fire to cease that it should not burn ; so they were oppressed , they wandered about in sheeps-cloathing and goats-cloathing , heb. . therefore i say there must be an unity of faith. i desire all catholiques to consider this , that it is better to be reviled by man now in this world , than be reviled by god in the world to come . mat. . it is said , the catholique church is built upon a rock . and mat. . he who will not believe the church , let him be as a heathen and publican . this faith must be establisht so in every one , because christ said , he would send the holy ghost , and he will shew us ( or them ) what to do . this is the rule of faith : this faith was publisht at rome . and st. paul writing to the christians there ▪ rejoyceth that their faith was renowned in the whole world. go ye therefore , baptizing all nations in the name of the father . and this is the faith i confess and believe in , and which i dye for . i come now to speak of the second virtue , which is hope . i hope i shall have such reward , that neither eye hath seen , nor ear heard , nor can it enter into the heart of man to conceive . those that have hope , shall be as mount sion , that shall not be removed ; those that have firm hope , there 's nothing can disturb them ; as david faith , god is round about those that do hope in him , as the mountains are round about hierusalem . i come to the third virtue , and that is charity . it 's true , now this body of mine in this shipwrack is full of sin , but when that shipwrack is over , i shall come to inherit that rock that shall never fail . now welcome shipwrack that makes the body suffer , but brings the soul to that haven which is joyful . now many there be that talk much of charity , few understand it , and fewer that practise it . this is the greatest virtue , cor. . though ye speak with tongues of men and angels , and have not charity , it availeth nothing . so then we ought to have love and charity , or else it prevaileth nothing . 't is expected i should say something of the plot. as to this , i shall declare two points of my faith. first , i believe that all are bound to obey the king's laws . secondly , i do declare , that those that do break the law in word , or any action , or that do act any thing against his majesties life , that is a sin unto damnation , as much as it was a sin in judas to betray christ . an oath is a taking god to witness , and is as much as if he took his life and justice to stake . so that he who takes a false oath , is guilty of destroying the life of god and his justice , and of his own damnation . and if i were but guilty of this , i do declare , that all the sin of damnation would fall upon me , because i denied the truth , and so struck at god by my sin , in denying the truth ; that 's one damnation . a second damnation is , that if any man know of an evil against his majesty , his kingdom and nation , and to hide and not discover it , he shall answer for those mischiefs that come thereby ; so that a man would have made and committed as many sins , as there be men in england that had suffered . a third damnation , is to dye in this lye and with this perjury in his mouth ; whereby he loses heaven , and all its enjoyments , and dies in greater sins than the devils themselves . fourthly , i should have been guilty of my own death ; for that judge atkins offered me my life if i would confess what i knew of the plot , which had i known , and not discovered , would have made me the cause of my own death , which would have been a fourth damnation . i would have said more , but that i gave my speech to a friend to be printed . mr. sheriff . i pray sir speak on what you have to say , and none shall interrupt you . mr. johnson . now i have no more to do but to make my address to almighty god , with all the powers of my soul , that i may have his mercy and pardon of my sins ; and therefore i beg that all catholiques who join in union of this same faith , would make an address unto god for me , that we may receive pardon for our sins . -i have nothing now but wishes left . -i wish i may imitate david in his repentance , and that my eyes may run down with tears , because i have not kept god's law. i wish with the prophet jeremiah , that rivers of waters may fall from my eyes , by reason of sin , lam. . . but tears will not be proper for me at this time ; i have kept my self from them , lest by shedding tears , some might say i was unwilling to dye , or feared death : but instead of tears , i offer all the blood in my veins , and i wish every drop were an ocean , and i would offer it up to god. i wish i might become a man like david . i wish i had mary magdalens penitential tears ; i wish i had her arms to embrace the feet of mercy . i wish i had all the graces of saints and angels , i would offer them all to god for the remission of my sin . this is my desire , and this i wish for as much as is in me . i offer first my life , and i beseech and desire of god to turn his face from my sins , but not from me . i offer up my life in satisfaction for my sins , and for the catholick cause . and i beg for those that be mine enemies in this my death , and i desire to have them forgiven , because i go to that world of happiness sooner than i should have gone . and i humbly beg pardon from god and the world : and this i beg for the merits and mercy of jesus christ . i beseech god to bless his majesty , to give him a long life , a nd a happy reign in this world , and in the world to come . i beseech god to bless all my benefactors , and all my friends , and those that have been any way under my charge . i beseech god to bless all catholicks , and this nation , and his majesties privy council , and grant that they may act no otherwise than what may be for the glory of god , who will bring to light and to judgment all both good and evil , luke . so i beseech god that he will give them grace to serve him . i beseech god to bless the parliament that is now in election , that they may determine nothing , but what they themselves do hope to be judged by at the last day . i beseech god to bless all that suffer under this persecution , and to turn this our captivity into joy ; that they who now sowe in tears , may reap in joy . i beseech god to accept the death of my body , and to receive my soul. i have no more to say . mr. sheriff . i give you no interruption ; but only whereas you said , that you dyed for the faith , that is not so , you do not dye for that , but because you , being his majesties subject , received orders from the church of rome beyond the seas , and came again into england , contrary to the law. mr. johnson that was pardoned by the kings act of grace . mr. sheriff . that act pardoned onely crimes committed before the making of it , but not those done since , as your continuance in england was . mr. johnson . i am sorry if i have given offence in any thing i have said ; my ●●ason for it was , because when i was sent for to the judges upon sunday night , ●●dge atkins told me , i dyed not for being concerned in the plot , but for being a priest . mr. sheriff . no , but for your continuance in england against the law ( being a priest . ) mr. johnson . god receive my soul. mr. sheriff . sir , you may take your own time , and you shall have no interruption ; sir , will you be pleased to have your own time ? jaylor . sir , pray give the sign when you please to be turned off . mr. johnson . i will give you no sign , do it when you will. and so he was executed . mr. johnson was of an honourable family ( in norfolk ) born to an estate of l. per annum , ( all which he left for the sake of religion ) his third brother now enjoys the estate . finis . mr. johnson's speech which he deliver'd to his friend to be printed ( as he mention'd at the place of execution . ) advertisement . mr. johnsons's tryal , and what he spoke at his execution , being finisht , there came to the printers hands his speech at large ( of which his foregoing words are only the heads ) as the reader will see , and as mr. johnson also mentions , viz. ( i would have said more , but that i gave my speech to a friend to be printed ) therefore his friend has now faithfully publisht it accordingly , being written by mr. johnson himself , as followeth . god almighty ( honoured friends ) having been pleased of his infinite mercy through the merits of our saviour jesus christ , to bestow o● all christians the theological vertues of faith , hope and charity , by vertue of faith all are to believe whatever god hath revealed to us in this world , & by hope all are to expect what he hath promised we shall receive in the world to come . and because , where god bestows such a faith and hope , it is in order to bring all to a true charity and love of him ; for who can have faith to believe an infinite goodness , in which he hopes , but he must love that infinite goodness in whom he hopes , which bestows on him such gifts ? therefore all ought to honour god , and shew their love to him by a due profession , and a due practice of this faith , this hope , and this charity , otherwise they cannot be saved , because , as st. paul saith , with th●●● art it is believed to righteousness , but with the mouth confession is made to salvation , romans . . for those that will not shew their faith , which is a light not to be hid under a bushel , but to be set in a candlestick , to give light to all , such can never have neither true hope for themselves , nor true charity towards god , or their neighbour , nor god to them , because our saviour saith , luke . he that confesseth me before men , him will the son of man confess before the angels of god ; but he that denieth me before men ( as those do that act or swear against their conscience ) him will the son of man deny before the angels of god. and as all are bound to confess him , and his faith ; so likewise all are obliged to own and profess that this faith can be but one only faith , as we are taught , ephes . . where st. paul declares , there is one lord , one faith , one baptism , one god , even as you are called , saith he , in one hope of your calling . this being most true , let every rational christian , in his most retired thoughts , consider how this unity of faith , and this hope of our calling can stand with such multiplicity of sects and opinions , all so divers one against the other , with which the nation now so abounds : for according to the text , a man may as well say , there are diversities of gods , or diversities of christs , as that there are diversities of faiths , because faith is nothing but the truth of one god , which truth or faith he hath revealed , which none can alter . we are all therefore bound to believe alike , in one faith , and in one holy catholick church , as our creed teacheth us ; we are all obliged to believe in one catholick faith , as the creed of st. athanasius in the protestant common-prayer-book declares , saying , whosoever will be saved , it is necessary before all things , that he believe in the catholick faith , which faith , unless every one keep whole and undefiled , he shall without doubt perish everlastingly : all and every one are to keep this faith whole , because as it is writ , st. jam. . v. . whesoever keeps the whole law , and yet offends in one point , is guilty of all . all are to keep the whole faith , because our saviour saith , matth. . . go ye into the world , and preach the gospel to every creature : all are to believe alike the whole faith of the gospel , else they shall perish everlastingly ; because our saviour saith in the same place , v. . he that believes shall be saved , but he that believeth not shall be damned . we all must keep the unity of faith whole and undefiled , because our saviour also saith , st. matth. . . heaven and earth shall pass , but ▪ one jot , or one tittle of the law shall in no wise pass , till all be fulfilled ; as well the law of faith , as the law of works . in confirmation of this , i appeal to the faith , and works , and sufferings of all the saints from the beginning , who to keep their faith whole and entire , have made such profession and practice of it , and confirm'd it by such works as are recorded in st. paul , heb. . where first he registers the faith and deeds of the believers in particular , and then in general , of what they did and suffered by vertue of their faith , as there you read ; by faith they stopt the mouths of lions , extinguished the force of the fire , repelled the edge of the sword ; they were racked , they were tryed by mockings and stripes ; they were in chains and prisons , they were stoned , they were hewed , they were tempted , they died in ●he slaughter of the sword , they were so persecuted and impoverished , that they were fain to go about in sheep-skins , and goat-skins , needy , in distress , afflicted , wandring in desarts , in mountains , in dens , and caves of the earth . dear catholicks now in your present persecution , think of this , and be willing to follow these examples , that you , as in the same place it followeth , being appointed , as they were , by the testimony of your faith , may receive , ere long , those better things which god , as 't is there writ , provides for you : happy those that have this faith , but thrice more happy those that suffer these persecutions for faiths sake , because by this faith , as st. paul saith , gal. . . the just man lives , and those that have not this faith , are dead to god , because , as 't is written , heb. . . without saith 't is impossible to please god ; and yet though we have this faith , except we joyn , when god requires , our works of sufferings to this faith , both we and our faith are dead to god , because , as st. james saith , chap. . ver . . faith is to be shewed by works , because faith without works is dead . and he further shews us in his first chap. v. . 't is the works make a man happy , although there can be no good work without a firm faith in nothing doubting , as he saith , ver . . christian faith is a firm , established , and an infallible faith , because it is grounded upon a rock , against which the gates of hell shall not prevail , matth. . v. . this faith is firmly established by such authority of god and his church , that he that will not own the authority , is as a heathen and a publican ; god hath declared him so ; and what the church binds on earth , god binds in heaven . this church and faith is firmly establisht , because our saviour hath promised , that the holy ghost , the spirit of truth should teach the believers all truth , remain with them for ever , shew them things to come to be believed , and should cause the believers to remember all things which christ had already taught , which you read in john . and . chap. this faith is firmly established , because it was believed and published from the beginning , throughout the whole world , as st. paul proclaims , romans the first , where he speaks thus to all that be in rome ; beloved of god , called to be saints ; first i thank my god through jesus christ for you all , that your faith is published throughout the whole world . finally , this faith is established and infallibly confirmed , that it can never decay till the worlds end , because our saviour hath promised to be with the believers unto the worlds end , matth. . , . go ye therefore and teach all nations , baptizing them in the name of the father , and of the son , and of the holy ghost , teaching them to observe all things whatsoever i have commanded you , and behold i am with you alwaies even to the end of the world . thus much briefly concerning my christian faith in which i truly believe in all points infallible , and in confirmation of which one only faith and catholick church , i will and do lay down my life ; and whosoever will as he ought consider the text that proves this faith and church of the living god , to be the pillar and ground of truth , as 't is evident it is , tim. . . i question not but who i say considers this , will believe the same , our faith being assisted by our second divine vertue , which is our christian hope . this hope is that vertue which assures us , that for the reward of our faith , and the profession and due practice of it , as we ought , there are those heavenly gifts laid up for the christian believers , which neither eye hath seen , nor ear hath heard , nor the heart of man can conceive or comprehend , as st. paul declares : this hope gives such confidence , that death cannot overcome it , because , as the prophet saith , although he shall kill me , yet i will hope in him . why then shall any sear to die for his faith , having this hope ? 't is for want of making due reflection and use of this hope that causes so many to be fearful to suffer , and makes them fly the field of persecution , and forsake the banners of their christian faith , that all ought to fight under , and would still fight under , would they make use of the divine hope of gods promises , which are such , that as david saith , psal . . that he that hopes or trusts ▪ in our lord , shall be as mount sion , which cannot be removed , but remain for ever . as the mountains , saith god by the mouth of david , are about jerusalem , so the lord is round about his people ; that is , such as will place their hope in him , as the prophet did , and exhorts us to do the same , saying , psal . . , . my soul hath hoped in our lord ; from the morning watch , even until night , let israel hope in our lord ; that is , from the beginning of the day of our life , till the night of death ; as well in the morning of prosperity , as in the evening of adversity : because 't is also writ , god is my hope for ever ; and whosoever can truly say with david , psal . . . in thee , o lord , have i plac'd my hope , shall be assured of what there follows , not to be confounded for ever , because , as st. paul saith , hope consoundeth not . there is a contrary vice to this virtue , a worldly fear that brings all things to confusion ; it makes worldlings swear , and forswear , and perjure ; for which perjuries and false oaths , as the prophet saith , judgment springs up as hemlock in the furrows of the field . and therefore dr. thorndick , in his book of just weights and measures , saith , that coaction of oaths is the crying sin of this nation , to call down the wrath of god upon the kingdom . what better remedy than to secure our selves against all worldly fears , and these ensuing dangers , but by relying on the hope of future blessings , which god , if we fight and suffer for his sake , hath promised . god is the god of hosts , and we fight under him , and if we trust in him we are happy , as david saith , psal . . . o lord of hosts , blessed is the man that trusts in thee , in whom to hope is to be secured ; and therefore david also saith , psal . . he shall cover thee with his feathers , and under his wing shalt thou hope , especially if we fight for our faith ; and therefore he adds in the same verse , his truth shall be thy shield and buckler , if we will hope in him and his reward ; for if we hope for our great wages , we shall easily undergo our little work : as for example , if we hope to drink of the torrent of pleasure , as god hath promised we shall in his kingdom , who will fear to taste now of the chalice of some small persecution ? if we hope hereafter to be numbered amongst the sons of god , as he hath promised we shall , and have our lot among the saints , why should we now fear to be reviled of men , or be reputed ignominious , as our saviour and his apostles were ? if they have , so will they do you also ; the scholar is not above the master , nor the servant above his lord. if they call'd the master of the family beelzebub , so will they do his servants ; therefore we must with the apostles rejoice , as you read in the acts they did , because they were accounted worthy to suffer contumely and reproaches . if contumely and reproach seem so hard for us to undergo now for a good cause , as is our conscience before a few enemies , what contumely must those undergo who for now acting against their conscience , shall undergo at the great judgment before god , angels , saints , devils , and all the damn'd in hell ? if for our reproach now we hope that after a short sorrow , god will honour us so , as to wipe away with his own hand every tear from our eyes , as he promiseth in the revelations he will ; and that henceforth there shall be neither grief , nor labour , nor pain , or the like ; why should any now grieve either to see himself or others suffer ? it will not last , this tempest will soon be over , and if now in this storm the small vessel of my body suffer shipwrack , or some others the like vessels , if our souls can but carry off our goods of faith , hope and charity , all is very well ; for as soon as the vessels of our bodies sink , our souls will come to shore at the land of promise , and we shall be secured in the rock which is christ , and ever remain safe in the eternal hills , where neither winds nor waves of persecution can ever reach to assault us : then welcome shipwrack , that sinks the vessel of the body , to bring the passengers and their goods so happily to the haven , the heaven of bliss . let us therefore weigh these things in a prudential balance , and see which scale is the heaviest , of present fears , or future hopes ; of present sufferings , or future glories . let us remember our saviours words to his apostles , you are those that remained with me in my temptations or tryals ; for which , said he , their reward was , he disposed the kingdom of heaven to them ; partners in sufferings , partners in glovles : which if well considered , we shall say with st. paul , the sufferings of this present time are not condign ▪ or of equality to the future glory which shall be revealed in us ; and we shall with his joyful spirit say , cor. . our light affliction , which is but for a moment , worketh in us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory . 't is a happy weight that lifts both sufferings and sufferers up as high as heaven , to eternal crowns , of which we are all assured of as a reward for our faith , if we will make good use of our christian hope ; which that we may the better do , let us endeavor to help our selves by the third and greatest virtue that follows our faith and hope , which is charity . this is that greatest virtue of which all sorts of christians speak much , understand little , and practise less ; though without the practice of it , 't is in vain for any to pretend to have a saving faith , or hope ; for as st. paul saith , cor. . though he speak with the tongues of men and angels , and have not charity , he is but as sounding brass ; and although he should know all mysteries , and have faith to remove mountains ; and though he should have such hope , understand for reward , that he should give all to the poor , and deliver his body to burn , and yet not have charity , it profiteth nothing . charity , as he saith , ver . . suffereth all things , believeth all things , hopeth all things , beareth all things . do all that pretend to charity do thus ? if to speak with the tongues of angels without charity be nothing but vanity , what charity is there in those that speak with the tongues of detraction , scandal , slander , false-witness and perjuries against their neighbors ? if those that give all to the poor may want charity , so that all which they give profits them nothing , what charity is there in those that take all from their neighbors , to force them to forsake their faith ? if alms profit nothing without charity , can such injuries profit persecutors , that take all away-against charity ? if a man may give his own body to burn , and yet be cold in charity , what charity is there to kill others bodies , take away their lives with ignominy and violence , because they will not kill their own souls , by acting against god and their conscience ? if charity consists only in those that suffer all things , believe all things , hope all things , what charity is there in those who will make their neighbor suffer all things of persecution , because they believe and hope according to their conscience , and profess their faith and hope as they are bound before god upon their salvation so to do ? 't is certain , that though men may pretend persecution of others for gods sake , to reduce others to him , yet 't is evident that for any kingdom to persecute any , meerly for conscience-sake , is against the law of god ; and therefore whil'st they would seem so zealously to keep the first command , of loving god above all , and force others to conform to their opinions , they break the second command , because they do not love their neighbor as themselves , because they persecute them , and so they dash one commandment against the other , and so crack both commandments together : for wheresoever the second command is broke , by not loving our neighbor as our selves , the first is broke with it , because did they love god above all , they would do better by their neighbor . but i do not come here to beat down others pretence to charity , but endeavour to advance charity in my self and others ; and the way to do this , is not to reckon what others have not done according to charity , but to call to mind what others have done to raise charity towards god and their neighbors . we read in holy writ , that moses love was so to god and his neighbor , that to repurchase a peace and charity 'twixt god and the people after they had offended , he desired that his own name should rather be blotted out of the book of life , than that the peoples names should not be put in , by obtaining forgiveness ; and therefore he saith to god , either spare the people , or blot me out of the book which thou hast writ . how superlative a motive is this , to move christians to a perfect charity towards their neighbors ; well may a christian be willing to lay down his temporal life for good example sake , rather than offend god , and scandalize others by deserting his faith ; since others could be willing to hazard their eternal lives , to reduce their neighbors to god by charity . the like examples of love to god and his neighbors , we have in st. paul , in his manifold expressions both towards god and men ; first to god , as rom. . where he makes this proclamation , who shall , saith he , separate us from the charity of christ ? shall tribulation , or distress , or persecution , or famine , or nakedness , or peril , or sword ? as it is written , for thy sake we are kill'd all the day long , we are accounted as sheep to the slaughter . he adds , i am certain that neither death nor life , nor angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present nor things to come , nor heigth , nor depth , nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of god which is in christ jesus our lord. and for this charity in order to his neighbor , let what he suffered to serve them testifie , as he relates , cor. . by being in labors and stripes , in prison , in death , in scourgings , in shipwracks , being day and night in the bottom of the sea , in perils , in weariness , in painfulness , in hunger , in thirst , in fasting , in cold and weariness , besides what he suffered through his care of all churches , ver . , . where he saith , who is weak , and i am not weak ? understand by compassion , as fellow-sufferer ; who is scandalized , and i burn not ? understand by zeal . let those now consider this , who never more rejoyce than now , when they see their passive neighbors scandalized , and were never better content in their own apprehensions than now , when they behold us suffering , though before god we are innocent . were st. paul on earth again , he would rather give himself for others , to ease them of their sufferings , according to his wonted charity exprest , cor. . . saying , i will very gladly spend and be spent for you : and he would rejoyce to suffer in charity for his neighbor , as he abundantly declares , colos . . . saying , i rejoyce in my sufferings for you , and fill up that which is wanting of the passions or afflictions of christ in my flesh for his bodies sake , which is the church , and this example is given for us to do the like , and therefore he saith , cor. . . we are made a spectacle to the world , to angels , and to men ; and therefore god forbid but some of us , if we be christian men , should endeavor to imitate some of his examples , though we cannot all ; for he ascended to so superlative a degree of charity towards his neighbor , that he declares to the world , that he could be a cast-away himself to save others ; for thus he saith , rom. . . i could wish my self were accursed from christ for my brethren . christians do not then henceforth so easily ruine your neighbors , neither in their lives , nor estates , or credits , by persecutions and scandals , the scripture holds forth no such doctrine , nor gives any such examples , but , as you see , the contrary ; but if our persecutors will not imitate these examples , let us that are persecuted and suffer endeavor to imitate them , by choosing rather to lose all we can call our own in this world , and life also , rather than to break charity to god and our neighbor , either by denying or dissembling our faith , and scandalizing the church , or bearing false witness against our selves , or our neighbors , to save our lives or fortunes , or enrich our selves by false witness . and if we will put in practice the virtues of faith , hope and charity i have spoke of , we ought to do it thus ; what we profess by words , we must confirm by deeds and actions . our profession of catholick faith is this , i believe all divine revelations delivered to the prophets and apostles , proposed by the catholick church in her general councils , or by her universal practice to be believed as an article of catholick faith , knowing this to be our faith , the confirmation of this knowledge , or the practice of this by our deeds , is , as st. paul teacheth , ephes . . . to esteem all worldly things as dirt , in respect of this eminent knowledge of christ and his faith ; and therefore for my own part , i now being ready to leave all in the world , and my life in testimony of my catholick faith , which i profess i desire and hope to manifest to all , i value my knowledge of christs faith , more than i value the universal world. and as for my christian hope i profess to have , the confirmation of it , or the practical part is to be fulfilled thus , being that we must , as st. peter saith , pet. . . be always ready to give an account to every one concerning the hope which is in us . i have already by words expressed it , and by deed i express it thus ; that whereas i do believe that god , as the scripture saith , kills , and brings to life again ; ▪ carrieth down to the depth , and bringeth back again ; so now i do by this my present execution , which i am now to undergo , willingly give my body to be mortified in death for my faith , hoping in gods infinite mercy he will restore my body and soul to eternal life ; and i do willingly resign my self to be carried down to my grave , hoping by my saviours cross and passion , death and burial , he will raise me up again to a glorious resurrection . and as for the confirmation of my charity , to shew by deeds , the love i owe to god and my neighbor , it hath pleased my saviour by his own words to declare which is the best proof or practice of charity , where he saith , no man hath a greater charity , than he that lays down his life for his friend . i therefore do willingly undergo this death i am to suffer now , to testifie i love my friend , my neighbor as my self ; whil'st i undergo this death for my self and them , that seeing it is for the profession of my faith i dye , they , whil'st they live , may the more happily serve god in the same belief ; and i testifie i love god above all , because i forsake the world and my self in death , rather than offend him by doing any thing against my conscience . and forasmuch as for these many years i have had occasion by discoursing and reading the holy scriptures with others who desired to find out the true faith , i have by words declared what faith i did believe , and what faith they ought to believe ; i now declare that for every point of faith that ever i believ'd my self , or read to others , or told them that they might believe as a point of faith ; for all and every such points of faith , in confirmation of them , as well to my self as others , i here lay down my life ; and omitting all other particular points , i believe obedience to our king to be a divine law , and that we are bound to obey his commands in temporal laws ; and i believe it too a sin of damnation , for any subject of his to rebel against him , or his kingdom ; and i believe it as certain a sin to damnation , for any subject to endeavor , either by thoughts , words or deeds , to take away his life , or act any thing of that nature , either by himself , or any others , or other against his sacred majesty , as i believe it was a sin in judas to damnation to betray christ . and i do declare upon my salvation that i never did , nor do know any catholick , that ever was or is the least guilty , either by thought , word or deed , by any plot or otherwise , to have any design or concurrence to kill his sacred majesty , or rebel against his kingdom , whom god long preserve with his subjects in all happiness in this world , and crown him in the world to come with eternal glory . and now it remains , that with all the powers and forces of my soul , i make my address to god for mercy ere i appear before him for judgment ; and you , dear friends , here present , who believe in one holy catholick church , and communion of saints , be pleased in charity to make the same address to god with me , and for me , that we may obtain true sorrow and repentance for all our sins , and a merciful forgiveness ; and first let us wish from the bottom of our hearts , that we could express and make good our sorrow , as david did , psal . . whil'st rivers of waters run down our eyes like his , because we have not kept according to our saith gods commands ; for which had we that fountain of tears which the prophet wished for , we ought spend it all ; we ought with jeremy , lam. . , . to weep till our eyes , as his , failed and as his eye with tears afflicted , as he saith his heart , so ought ours to do , because we have made so ill use of that faith , hope and charity , which god hath bestowed upon us . but forasmuch as tears now at this present , and in these circumstances of rash censuring times , tears , i say , from me , might seem to some , either the off-spring of fear to dye , which god forbid i should have in so good a cause as my religion ; or lest others might judge my tears might fall by reason of some other guilt , of which i am free and innocent , i have endeavoured to stop the course of tears , and instead of drops of waters from my eyes , i 'll spend the drops of blood from every sorrowful vein of my heart , and my whole body , that god may please to wash away the sins of all my life past , and i wish each drop an ocean for my self and all the world , because i have nothing now left more than wishes , which i beseech thee , o gracious god , of thy mercy to accept of ; and if you will vouchsafe to accept of wishes to supply the deeds , by wishes i offer up all that 's good to you , that ever you gave to any since the worlds creation ; i offer up david's broken heart , together with my own , that so like him , after my repentance , i may become a man according to your own heart . i offer up the sighs of magdalen , and wish i could make such use of them as she did , to sob out my sins . i wish her repentant arms , that i may lay fast hold at the feet of thee my gracious god. i wish i had the longanimity of all the holy confessors . i wish i had the sufferings of all thy constant martyrs . i wish i had the lamps of all thy sacred virgins , that i might offer all to thee that in them was pleasant in thy sight . i wish i could offer up to thee , o god , the sacrifices of just abel , lot , job , and all other sacrifices that ever did gratefully ascend up in thy sight ; that thou being pleased by the sight of them , thou mightst look no more upon my sins : for if thou wilt observe iniquities , who shall endure ? let therefore thy mercy hide thy face from my sins , but let not the rigor of thy justice cast me away from thy presence ; cast me not away from thy face , and thy holy spirit take not from me , but turn away thy face from sin , and blot out all my iniquities , and i will offer my body as a sacrifice to thee by death to appease thy just anger . i own my sins , and i own your mercies . you gave me faith to know and believe what was the will of you my heavenly master , but i acknowledge my fault , that although i knew your will , i did not fulfill it , and therefore i ought to be beaten with many stripes , because you foretold me , that many are the stripes of a sinner ; but be pleased , dear lord , also to remember , that in the same place you promised , that notwithstanding this , yet mercy should encompass him that hopes ; you have given your divine hope , vouchsafe to let this hope defend me ; and although i know i have not made good use of hope , and hope not well us'd , of which i am guilty , makes a sinner defer repentance , and so puts in danger to fall into presumption by long neglect , yet the last hour of calling being not yet past , and your mercy being above all your works , i hope and humbly beg to be partaker with those who were accepted at the last hour . i humbly acknowledge with thanks , o gracious god , that you gave me charity as your livery , in which i always ought to have appeared in your sight , and never to have been divested of it ; but how oft have i been spoiled , through my own fault , of this garment ? how oft have i , by descending to jericho , instead of going up to jerusalem ? how oft , i say , have i been rob'd of this garment of charity ? even as often as i have preferred any sublunary object , and the love of that before the love of you , and before your goodness , which is above all goodness , and the object of all beatitude . vouchsafe again , o gracious lord , to restore in mercy to me this nuptial vestment , ere i dare appear at the supper of the lamb. make me , o heavenly father , a penitential prodigal , and then i shall have put on me again this best robe of charity . this i beg from the bottom of my soul for his dear sake , who was devested of his garments out of charity , that i might be invested in his charity , who also suffered his garments to be divided , that he might purchase grace , that we might never be divided from the unity of his faith and church , but rather willingly suffer for his sake the separation of our lives from our bodies the separation of our bodies from our souls , and the separation of our bodies into its quarters , that we may the more perfectly by these sufferings and separations from our selves be united to him . therefore in the faithful communion and perfect union of the sufferings of all saints that ever have been , or now are , or ever will be , in the union of the most sacred merits of the life , passions and death of god and man , my dear redeemer and saviour christ , i offer my self willingly to what i am now to suffer , begging by all that 's good in heaven and in earth , remissions of sins for my self and all the world , particularly for all that may appear to have been my enemies in the concern of my life , as witness , jury , judge , and others , whom i do not esteem as enemies , but as the best of friends ; i heartily forgive them , and beg the best of blessings for them all , as being the cause of sending me sooner than otherwise i might have gone , to the happy state of hope for the other world. whither , before i go i humbly beg pardon of all in this world , for whatever in thoughts , words or deeds i have committed to offend them , or omitted to do for them , by which any thing might have been mended in them , or my self , i beseech god to bless them all . i beseech god to bless also all my friends , spiritual and temporal ; all benefactors ; and all by whom i have received good or evil , by words , deeds or desires . i beseech god to bless all those of whom i ever had care or charge spiritually or temporally . i beseech god bless his holy catholick church , and our chief bishop thereof , with all other bishops , priests and clergy . i beseech god bless this nation , and unite all amongst themselves and to god , in true faith , hope and charity . i beseech god to bless his majesties privy council and make all the secrets of their hearts and their desires such , as that both charles our king on earth , and god our great king in heaven and earth , may be serv'd , pleas'd and honour'd by them , that men and angels may rejoyce at it now , and be publick witness of it at the last great day , at the great and last council table , where every secret shall be laid open , luke . as solomon saith , eccles . ult . when god will bring into judgment every secret thing , whether it be good or evil . i beseech god to bless the parliament now elect , and be so present with them when they sit to judge and discuss the causes of this nation , they may imitate the assembly of those that are to sit upon the twelve thrones at the last great assembly , that they may now judge or determinate of things no otherwise than they hope or fear then to be judged themselves , and determined of to all eternity . i beseech god to bless all that suffer in this persecution , and let the blessing exprest in the th psalm light upon them speedily , that god turning their captivity , all mouths may be filled with joys , and tongues with singings . convert , o lord , our captivity , as streams in the south , that those who now sowe in tears , may reap in joy ; and for this temporal death , o blessed trinity , give me eternal life ; let my body dye to the world for the love of thee , that my soul may live for ever , and love in thee my god and dear redeemer amen . sweet jesus amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e rom. . . luk. . . ephes . . , . jam. , ●● . mat. . . heb. . gal. . . heb. . . jam. . . jam. . . mat. . . john . . mat. . , . psal . ▪ , . psal . . . cor. . rom. . cor. . cor. . . coloss . . . cor. . . rom . . eph. . . pet. . . psal . . . the tryal of capt. thomas wallcot for high-treason in conspiring to compass the death of his majesty, and to subvert the government who was tryed this th of july at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, and there found guilty of the said high-treason : being an impartial relation of the most materials during the said tryal : as likewise what occured in relation to james duke of monmouth, ford lord grey, and others. walcot, thomas, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of capt. thomas wallcot for high-treason in conspiring to compass the death of his majesty, and to subvert the government who was tryed this th of july at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, and there found guilty of the said high-treason : being an impartial relation of the most materials during the said tryal : as likewise what occured in relation to james duke of monmouth, ford lord grey, and others. walcot, thomas, d. . england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). sheet. printed for langely curtis, [s.l.] : [ ] reproduction of original in the huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng monmouth, james scott, -- duke of, - . rye house plot, . trials (treason) -- great britain. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - jonathan blaney sampled and proofread - jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of capt. thomas wallcot , for high-treason . in conspiring to compass the death of his majesty , and to subvert the government . who was tryed this th . of july , at the sessions-house in the old-bayley , and there found guilty of the said high-treason . being an impartial relation of the most materials during the said tryal . as likewise what occured in relation to james duke of monmouth , ford lord grey , and others . this day the session of oyer and terminer began in the old-baily ; where after some proceedings against felons , &c. the grand jury for london found the bills of high-treason against james , duke of monmouth , ford lord gray , captain thomas walcot , john rouse , william blake , william hone , and divers others ; whereupon the four last , viz. walcot , rouse , hone , and blake , were brought to the bar , and there severally arraigned for high-treason , in conspiring the death of the king , &c. after which , captain thomas walcot was alone brought to his tryal , and having put himself upon god and his country , was ordered to look to his challenges , as the jurors came to the book to be sworn , of which he excepted against about ten or eleven , and the kings counsel against one . the court having thus far proceeded , the indictment was read , the substance of which , was , that he thomas walcot , the prisoner at the bar , had on the second of march last past , and at divers other times , conspired with many traytors , whose names were therein recited , in the parish of st. nicholas bashaw , and in sundry other places , to depose the king from his right and title to the kingdom of england , &c. and not onely so , but him to assassinate , and to final destruction , and to subvert the government , to raise rebellion through the land , and a miserable slaughter to make amongst his subjects throughout the kingdom and that in order thereunto , he had provided arms , as blunderbusses , muskets , pistols , &c. after this , mr. north one of the kings counsel , opened the nature of the fact , also what particulars the evidence were to give , and declared the haniousness of the fact ; being seconded by mr. attorney general , who at large declared the conspiracy , as it was laid in all or most of its circumstances ; how , according as the evidence had deposed in counsel , it was contrived , mannaged , and carryed on . and after him , mr. serjeant jefferies laid down such material points as the other had omitted , aggravating the haniousness of the crime , declaring and laying open at large , the damnable treason and conspiracy , desiring the jury well to consider the waight of the cause they were to determine ; and adding , that if the several particulars were proved against the prisoner by the witnesses for the king , who had been for the most part privy to the whole design , they would like good english-men and christians , find the traytor guilty . the kings council having layed open the indictment , the evidence were called ; the first was colonel rumsey , who deposed , that for a considerable time past , there had been a design carryed on by divers disaffected conspirators , against the life of his sacred majesty , and that in order thereto , divers consults had been held , and sundry devices proposed , to bereave his majesty of his life , and crown ; and that at most of those consults , captain walcot had been present , and consenting to the models layed and designed , to effect the horrid treason , to raise a rebellion throughout the nation , to root out the legal line , and repose the power in the people . nay , so far had they proceeded , as to settle a form of government amongst themselves , and appoint rulers and officers to manage the affairs , relating to government ▪ and computed what numbers might be raised in such places , where the conspirators had most intrest , . at least , being to be raised in wapping . but whilst this device was in hand , another was thought of , which was to assassinate the king , in his return from new-market , the last time he was there ; the conspiracy and plot to bring it to pass being thus layed , several persons were to use their interest , to raise men for that purpose , who were with carbines , musquets , pistols , &c. to be armed , and lye in ambuscade in rumbold the malster's house , near h●dsdone , and to send several persons in country habits to over-through a cart , to stop the passage of a lane , the king's coach was to pass ; upon which designed stop , about fifty men well appointed , were to have sallyed out , rumbold being appointed to kill the king , and the duke of york : others to kill the horses , coach-man , and postilion , and the prisoner , with a commanded party , ro fight the guard himself ; as he declared to the evidence , thinking it the braver part of the action , as thinking it beneath him to assasinate a naked man ; but this plot miscarrying by reason of the fire , divers other projects were laid to take away the life of his majesty , the conspirators meeting frequently to consult how to bring about their pernicious design : all which by the discovery , were frustrated . the next evidence that deposed , was mr. keeling ; who declared , that he had been privy , for some months past , to the conspiracy , and had been at divers consults , wherein the destruction of the king was proposed and agreed on as the only expedient to further their purpose ; and that by goodenough , and others , he had been solicited to raise men for the new-market expedition ; which he at first boggl'd at ; and that at sundry times the prisoner had been at the said consults , and approved of the proceeding , himself being to have a principal command , and to be aiding in the assassinating the king ; and being by the court demanded what induced him to discover ? he declared , it was the secret impulse of his tormented conscience , which would not suffer him to rest till so great a wickedness was made known . this being the substance of his depositions , mr. bourn was sworn , who gave evidence in effect to what the former had deposed : then mr. west stood up , and declared the manner of the contrivance of the plot , together with the several declarations that were to have been disporsed it the design had taken effect ; also the many other wicked designs to take away the life of the king , as at the play-house , bull-feast , and upon his comming from windsor in his barge ; declaring that he had bought arms for that purpose , with many other circumstances ; charging the prisoner in particular . there were likewise two letters under his hand proved in court , one to sir lyonel jekins to implore the pardon of his majesty , in lieu whereof he promised to discover the whole design layed in england , ireland , and holland ; which , as he said , none could do better than himself : another was intercepted by captain richardson , directed to a friend of his , to perswade collonel rumsey , and mr. west , to be tender of him in their evidence ; to these possitive evidences , his answers were for the most part but feeble ; he alledging himself indisposed of the gout at the time it was alledged he went to see how fit rumbold's house was for the purpose , and the impossibility of his bringing such things to pass as were sworn against him ; yet confessing that he had often associated himself with the conspirators , but hoped though he had some knowledge of the design , that it would amount to no more than misprision of treason ; but being confuted of his error by the court , after the evidence was summed up , and the charge given , the jury , after a short debate , found him guilty of the treason as in the indictment layed . printed for langely curtis , at the sign of sir edmund-bury godfrey's head , near fleet-bridge : the tryall and condemnation of col. adrian scrope, mr. john carew, mr. thomas scott, mr. gregory clement, col. john jones, who sate as judges upon our late soveraigne lord king charles their several answers and pleas at the sessions-house in the old-baily, friday the th of october , before the commissioners of oyer and terminer appointed by his majesty for that purpose. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing t ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryall and condemnation of col. adrian scrope, mr. john carew, mr. thomas scott, mr. gregory clement, col. john jones, who sate as judges upon our late soveraigne lord king charles their several answers and pleas at the sessions-house in the old-baily, friday the th of october , before the commissioners of oyer and terminer appointed by his majesty for that purpose. scrope, adrian, - , defendant. carew, john, d. , defendant. scott, thomas, d. , defendant. clement, gregory, d. , defendant. jones, john, d. , defendant. p. printed for john stafford and edward thomas, london : . wing's imprint reads "stetford" instead of stafford. reproduction of original in huntington library. eng trials -- england. a r (wing t ). civilwar no the tryall and condemnation of col. adrian scrope. mr. john carew. mr. thomas scott. mr. gregory clement. col. john jones. who sate as judge [no entry] b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryall and condemnation of col. adrian scrope . mr. john carew . mr. thomas scott . mr. gregory clement . col. john jones . who sate as judges upon our late soveraigne lord king charles . together with their severall answers and pleas , at the sessions-house in the old-baily , friday the th of october . before the commissioners of oyer and terminer appointed by his majesty for that purpose . james . v. . for he shall have judgement without mercy that shewed no mercy . london , printed for john stafford and edward thomas . . this day being friday the th . of october . the kings lords justices for tryal of several persons who had a hand in the death of our late soveraign , sate in the sessions house in the old baily , and called to the bar the persons following viz. col. adrian scroope . john carew , thomas scot . gregory clement . john jones . col. adrian scroope was first called to his tryal , who having accepted against several of the jury , at last had such a one as he agreed to . proclamation being made , and silence commanded , the indictment was read , and one of the kings council stood up and spake to this effect . gentlemen of the jury , you have heard by the indictment of several that did assemble themselves together to compass and take away the life of the king our late soveraigne , among which persons the prisoner at the bar was one , who under his hand and seal did consent to the said murther , first by setting hand to the commission which gave being to that bloody court , and afterwards by signing that bloody warrant which occasioned the severing his head from his body , which we can prove by several witnesses . the court call for the vvarrant for the king's execution , and went to shew it to one of the vvitnesses . which when col. scroope saw , he said , my lord let me see it , if it be my hand i will not deny it . the vvarrant it is carried to him . scroope . my lord i do not deny but it is my hand . mr. masterton one of the vvitnesses is sworn . kings council . whether did you see this gentlemen sitting among the judges of the king ? masterton . my lord , i was at the high court of justice so called , several times , and i saw the prisoner at the bar sitting among them , and particularly on the th . of december , being the day on which sentence was given . scroope . my lord , pray ask this gentleman whether he and i were ever in company together that he should know me so well , for i never saw him in my life before to my knowledge . to which it was answered , that he in person answered to that name , and was the man . several other witnesses were sworn to the same purpose . collonel scroope desired that one might be askt if he could tell whereabout he sate ; to which the witnesse answered , my lord , i cannot say that possitively , i cannot remember such circumstance so long ; but to the best of my remembrance , he was the uppermost judge on the right hand . sir richard browne was sworn to give evidence concerning several treasonable words that he should speak about the kings murther . the act for constituting the high court of justice was likewise read ; and col. scroop owned that to be his hand which subscribed thereunto ; saying , he did not desire that witnesses should be sworn to more then was needful . the kings council then spake to the jury , and told them ; that they had heard by six several witnesses that the prisoner had sate among the kings judges ; and by three that he sate the day which was by them called , the day of judgement . the prisoner said , that he had a great disadvantage in answering to such learned men , who were to plead against him , and said , that he would not undertake to justifie his person , but desired time and council to answer to matter of law . the judge . that is where you have matter of law . the prisoner answered , my lord , i was not of the parliament , i beseech you take notice of that ; and that which was done , my lord , was by a high court of justice , who had a commission from the parliament . my lord , it was that authority which was then accounted the supreme authority that the generality of the nation submitted to ; having received command from that authority it was in obedience to the same that i sate , i was promrted thereunto by that command : i have not time to bring these things to a head , because i have been these six weeks close prisoner in the tower , that i could not get councel to prepare myself ? therefore my lord , let me have some time and councel to provide myself to plead . my lord i was no contriver of that businesse only executed the command . to which was answered , that that which he called the parliament was no parliament ; that there was no colour of authority to justifie them ; and that if the whole house of commons had been sitting ( as these pretending that authority were not a sixth part ) yet they could not act against life of the least cripple at the gate without the king , much lesse against himself . col. scroope . i say my lord i am but a single person , and if there be mistakes i am not the only single person that have been misled , i hope that an errour in judgement , will not be accounted an errour in will , and shall not be accounted malice , truely my lord i must say this , and i desire your lordship to take notice of me , that i am without any malice at all . after several things of the like nature hoping that authority of the the rump-parliament would clear him and be taken as a sufficient plea for his aforesaid treasonable conspiracy , the judge askt him if he had anything further to offer in the case , which he being not able to do ; the charge was given to the jury , who never went out of the court to give in their verdict ; and being asked according to the forme , whether the prisoner at the bar were guilty of the high treason whereof he stood indicted or not guilty . the fore-man said gvilty . and so they said all . vvhereupon the prisoner was taken from the bar and shackled with chaines . the next who was called to the bar was mr. john carew , who after the formalities of the court was passed as aforesaid , and the ●ndictment read , he was charged by the kings council as followeth . the prisoner at the bar stands indicted for ( not having the fear of god before his eyes ) imagining , contriving and compassing the death of our late soveraigne of blessed memory ; for the proof of this there are several things in the indictment which do discover their private imagination , which is that they did meet and consult , &c. there is a statute of the t : of edward the third against imagining , designing , or compassing the death of the king , which ye are to enquire after . there was a thing called the high high cuurt of justice , in which bloody court our soveraigne was tryed , and this gentleman was one of those miscreants that had the confidence , nay , the impudence to sit among them , and afterwards sealed to that bloody roll whereupon he was executed . severall witnesses being examined spake to this effect , that they saw him several days in that court sitting among those who were called the kings judges , and particularly on the . day of january , . on which day the sentence passed ; also knew that to be his hand which was to the warrant for the kings execution , and for establishing a high court of justice . whereupon the prisoner was asked what he had to say for himself ? who answered , that he came not there to deny any thing that he had done ; that whereas what was done in the case was ushered in with these words , [ not having the fear of god before his eyes ] he did declare it was not done in such a fear , but in the fear of the holy and righteous lord the judge of the earth . where at the court was much troubled and disturbed that he should make god the author of their treason and murther . but he went on to this purpose when this came about there was an ordinance where in my name was set , which when i saw i stroke it out ; i leave it to the lord to judge , i thought not well of it , and so was very unwilling to appear in it , there being as i thought enough beside me to be imployed in it , and therefore i speak the truth as it is in jesus , to shew how i had the fear of the lord before me , i say as to what i did was upon this account ; i did it first in obedience to the then supreame authority of england , and after the lord gave answer to solemne appeals . running on after this rate the court were wearied with his discourse and put him on to plead to his indictment . he desired he might declare the grounds whereupon the parliament proceeded , and give the grounds and reasons of the fact . to which the king's council said , then you must needs confesse it . whereupon he acknowledged , that he was there , and proceeded against the act of parliament ; but was told ( as the court had often said before ) that neither the lords nor the commons , jointly or severally , had any power without the king ; and that the power then in being had not the least colour of authority for what they did ; and that it was not a thing to be debated without denying our allegiance , that the subject can hold up his hand against his soveraign . after the lord annesley made a learned speech , declaring the illegality of their proceedings , that when a treaty was concluded with the king , and accordingly all things like to be settled , he & some others had contrived and designed to keep the far greater part of the members out against their allegiance , the lawes of the land , and against the priviledges of parliament , &c. making themselves an arbitrary parliament and driving away the rest , &c. but mr carew being not able to say any thing in defence of his high charge : the jury never went out for it , but presently brought him gvilty . mr. scot was brought next , and after all the formalities of the court were over , he first pleaded the priviledge of a parliament man , several witnesses were produced against him , that he so gloried in the death of the king , as to say , that he desired it might be written upon his tombstone to th' end all the world might know it ; as also other things , which exprest his malicious forwardnesse in that horrid murther . the main part of his pleading was to justifie the authority of the rump-parliament , which being so often answered before , need not here be incerted ; the jury soon concluded with him likewise , and found him guilty . mr. gregory clement petitioned the court to wave his plea of not guilty ; which the court granting , he confest the indictment . col. john jones confest that he was present at giving sentence against the king , only denied the form of the indictment ; whereupon a jury was without his excepting against any , quickly sworn , and according to his own confession , found him guilty . the judge in a very learned speech endeavoured to make them sensible of the hainousness of the sin , and perswading them to repentance , prayed god to have mercy upon them , and read their sentence upon all together . you shall go from hence to the place from whence you came , and from that place shall be drawn upon a hurdle to the place of execution , and there shall hang by the neck till you are half dead , and shall be cut down alive , and your privy-members cut off before your face and thrown into the fire , your belly ript up and your bowels burnt , your head to be severed from your body , your body shall be divided into four quarters , and disposed as his majesty shall think fit . all were shackled with fetters and carried to the presse-yard . finis . the tryal of william viscount stafford for high treason in conspiring the death of the king, the extirpation of the protestant religion, the subversion of the government, and introduction of popery into this realm : upon an impeachment by the knights, citizens, and burgesses in parliament assembled, in the name of themselves and of all the commons of england : begun in westminster-hall the . day of november , and continued until the . of december following, on which day judgment of high treason was given upon him : with the manner of his execution the . of the same month. stafford, william howard, viscount, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of william viscount stafford for high treason in conspiring the death of the king, the extirpation of the protestant religion, the subversion of the government, and introduction of popery into this realm : upon an impeachment by the knights, citizens, and burgesses in parliament assembled, in the name of themselves and of all the commons of england : begun in westminster-hall the . day of november , and continued until the . of december following, on which day judgment of high treason was given upon him : with the manner of his execution the . of the same month. stafford, william howard, viscount, - . [ ], p. reprinted by jos. ray ... and are to be sold by s. helsham, joh. north, jos. howes and the rest of the booksellers of dublin, dublin : . errata: p. . reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng stafford, william howard, -- viscount, - -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (treason) -- england. popish plot, . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of william viscount stafford for high treason , in conspiring the death of the king , the extirpation of the protestant religion , the subversion of the government , and introduction of popery into this realm , upon an impeachment by the knights , citizens and burgesses in parliament assembled , in the name of themselves and of all the commons of england : begun in westminster-hall , the . day of november . and continued until the . of december following , on which day judgment of high treason was given upon him . with the manner of his execution the . of the same month. dublin , reprinted by jos . ray , at college-green , and are to be sold by s. helsham , job . north , jos . howes , and the rest of the booksellers of dublin . . the tryal of william viscount stafford , begun in westminster-hall , november . . the first day . william earl of powis , william viscount stafford ; henry lord arundel of wardour , william lord petre , and john lord bellasis , having been formerly impeached in the house of lords , of high treason , and other high crimes and offences , by the house of commons , in the name of themselves and of all the commons of england . and the house of commons having sent a message to the lords , to acquaint them with the resolution of that house , to proceed to the tryal of those lords then in the tower , and forthwith to begin with the said viscount stafford ▪ and to desire their lordships to appoint a convenient day for the tryal of the said viscount stafford ; their lordships did thereupon appoint the . day of november , . for his trial ; and a place in westminster-hall ▪ having been ( for that purpose ) erected , the same was as followeth , viz. therein were both seats and wool-packs , correspondent in all points to those in the house of lords ; as also a state placed at the upper end thereof , with a cabinet for the king ( and whom his majesty should think fit to attend him there ) on the right hand the state , and the like on the left hand for the queen and her followers . as also galleries over head , for ambassadors and others . and to the end that the commons might be fitted with seats upon this great occasion , there were erected for them , on each side divers benches , on several degrees , extending to the utmost walls of the hall. at the lower end the bar , ( whereunto the prisoners were to be brought ) being placed ; on the right hand thereof was a place raised about five foot , wherein the witnesses were to stand ; and on the left hand a convenient room for those particular members of the house of commons , which were to manage the evidence . and the right honourable heneage lord finch , baron of daventry , lord high chancellor of england , being by his majesties special letters patent , bearing date the . of november , . constituted lord high steward for that present occasion ; upon tuesday the said . of november , the lord high steward was honorably attended from his house in queen-street , by all the judges of his majesties courts in westminster-hall in their robes ; as also by garter principal king of arms , in his majesties coat of arms , and the gentleman usher of the black rod , unto whom his majesty had the day before delivered the white wand , to be carried before his lordship ; and about nine of the clock in the morning set forwards in his coach towards westminster , sitting at the hinder end thereof ; garter and the gentleman who bore the great seal sitting both uncovered at the other end ; one of the setjeants at arms , with his mace being placed on the right side the coach , and the usher of the black rod carrying the vvhite vvand on the left side ; the judges and his lordships gentlemen in several coaches following after . being thus come to the stairs-foot ascending to the house of peers , the judges went up two and two together ( the juniors first ) next the lord high steward's gentlemen : after them the serjeant at arms with his mace , and the seal bearer ; and lastly the gentleman usher of the black rod , bearing the vvhite vvand ; garter principal king of arms , going on his right hand . then his lordship alone ; his train born by one of his gentlemen ; in this manner entring the house of peers , he found all the lords in their scarlet robes ; also the bishops in their rochets , and took his place upon the uppermost woolsack . this done and prayers ended , his commission for lord high steward was read , and then the bishops receded , and the lords adjourned themselves into the new erected a court in vvestminster-hall . all things being thus in readiness , and a large door-place broken through the upper end of vvestminster-hall , into that room which was heretofore the court of vvards . their lordships passed from their house first into the painted chamber , then through that called the court of requests : thence ( turning on the left hand ) into that called the court of vvards , then entred at the door ( so broke down as aforesaid ) into vvestminster hall , and passed through a long gallery , ( placed between the king's bench and chancery courts ) into this new erected court in vvestminster-hall , and proceeded after this manner , viz. first the assistants to the clerk of the parliament . then the clerk of the crown in chancery , and clerk of the parliament ; after them the masters in chancery two and two , and the king's attorney general , alone . then the judges of all courts in vvestminster-hall , by two and two . next to them noblemens eldest sons . after them four serjeants at arms , bearing their maces . next the gentleman usher of the black rod. then all the noble men according to their respective degrees , the juniors first , viz. barons . viscounts . earls . great officer , viz. lord chamberlain of the houshould . marquesses . dukes . great officers lord privy seal . great officers lord president of the council . then four more serjeants at arms bearing their maces . after them , the gentleman carrying the great seal . then one of his majesties gentlemen ushers , daily-waiters , carrying the white wand . garter principal king of arms going on his right hand . then the lord high steward alone , having his train born , and after him his highness rupert duke of cumberland , a prince of the blood. this done , and the whole house of peers having taken their places according to their degrees , the commons being also seated on each side , and the managers in the room appointed for them ▪ the commons being all bare , the lord high steward ( after obeysance made towards the state ) took his place upon the uppermost wool-sack , and thereupon receiving the vvhite vvand from garter and the gentleman usher upon their knees , delivered it to the usher of the black rod , who held it during the time of sitting there ; having so done , his lordship said , cryer make proclamation of silence , then the cryer ( a serjeant at arms ) made proclamation thus , all manner of persons are straitly commanded to keep silence upon pain of imprisonment . god save the king. lord high steward . make proclamation for the lieutenant of the tower to bring the prisoner to the bar. cryer , oyes , oyes , oyes , lieutenant of the tower of london , bring forth thy prisoner , william viscount stafford , upon pain and peril shall fall thereon . god save the king. whereupon the lieutenant of the tower brought the prisoner to the bar. usher of the black rod. my lord stafford must kneel , which he did . lord high steward . rise my lord. then he arose and stood at the bar , and the lord high steward spake to him as followeth , my lord viscount stafford , the commons of england assembled in parliament have impeach'd your lordship of high treason ; and you are brought this day to the bar to be tryed upon that impeachment : you are not try'd upon the indictment of treason found by the grand jury ( tho there be that too in the case , ) but you are prosecuted and pursued by the loud and dreadsul complaints of the commons : and are to be try'd upon the presentment which hath been made by the grand inquest of the whole nation . in this so great and weighty cause , you are to be judg'd by the whole body of the house of peers , the highest and the noblest court in this , or perhaps in any other part of the christian world. here you may be sure no false weights or measures ever will , or can be found ; here the ballance will be exactly kept , and all the grains of allowance which your case will bear , will certainly be put into the scales . but as it is impossible for my lords to condemn the innocent ; so 't is equally impossible that they should clear the guilty . if therefore you have been agitated by a restless zeal , to promote that which you call the catholick cause . if this zeal have engaged you in such deep and black designs as you are charged with , and this charge shall be fully prov'd , then you must expect to reap what you have sown ; for every work must , and ought to receive the wages that are due to it . hear therefore with patience what shall be said against you , for you shall have full time and scope to answer it : aud when you come to make your defence , you shall have a very fair and equal hearing , in the mean time , the best entrance upon this service will be to begin with reading of the charge . lord high steward . my lord , if your lordship find your self infirm and unable to stand , your lordship may have a chair to ease your self whilst the charge is reading , and a chair was brought accordingly , and his lordship sate thereon . clerk of the parliament , read the charge . articles of impeachment of high treason , and other high crimes and offences against william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , and henry lord arundel of wardour , william lord petre , and john lord bellasis now prisoners in the tower of london . . that for many years now last past , there hath been contrived and carried on by papists , a trayterous and execrable conspiracy and plot within this kingdom of england , and other places ; to alter , change , and subvert the ancient government and laws of this kingdom and nation , and to suppress the true religion therein established , and to extirpate and destroy the professors thereof ; which said plot and conspiracy was contrived and carried on in divers places , and by several ways and means , and by a great number of persons of several qualities and degrees who acted therein , and intended thereby to execute and accomplish the aforesaid wicked and traiterous designs and purposes . that the said william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , henry lord arundel of wardour , william lord petre , and john lord bellasis , together with philip howard , commonly called cardinal of norfolk , thomas white alias whitebread , commonly called provincial of the jesuits in england , richard strange , lately called provincial of the jesuits in england vincent commonly called provincial of the dominicans in england . james corker , commonly called president of the benedictines . sir john warner , alias clare baronet , william harcourt , john kenis , nicholas blundel , — poole , edward mico , thomas bedingfield alias benefield , basil langworth , charles peters , richard peters , john conyers , sir george wakeman , thomas fenwick , dominick kelly , fitzgerald , evers , sir thomas preston , william lovel jesuits , lord baltamore , john carrel , john townely , richard langhorn , william fogarty , thomas penny , matthew medbourn , edward coleman , william ireland , john grove , thomas pickering , john smith ; and divers other jesuits , priests , fryers , and other persons , as false traytors to his majesty , and this kingdom , within the time aforesaid , have traiterously consulted , contrived , and acted to , and for the accomplishing of the said wicked , pernitious and traiterous designs , and for that end did most wickedly , and traiterously agree , conspire , and resolve to imprison , depose and murder his sacred majesty ; and to deprive him of his royal state , crown and dignity , and by malicious and advised speaking , writing , and otherwise , declared such their purposes and intentions . and also to subject this kingdom and nation to the pope , and to his tyrannical government . and to seize and share amongst themselves the estates and inheritances of his majesties protestant subjects . and to erect and restore abbeys , monasteries , and other convents and societies , which have been long since by the laws of this kingdom suppressed for their superstition and idolatry , and to deliver up and restore to them the lands and possessions now vested in his majesty and his subjects , by the laws and statutes of this realm : and also to found and erect new monasteries and convents , and to remove and deprive all protestant bishops , and other ecclesiastical persons from their offices , benefices and preferments . and by this means to destroy his majesties person , extirpate the protestant religion , overthrow the rights , liberties , and properties of all his majesties good subjects , subvert the lawful government of this kingdom , and subject the same to the tyranny of the see of rome . . that the said conspirators and their complices and confederates , traiterously had and held several meetings , assemblies , and consultations , wherein it was contrived and designed among them what means should be used , and what persons and instruments should be employed to murder his majesty ; and did then and there resolve to effect it by poisoning , shooting , stabbing , or some such like ways and means , and offered rewards and promises of advantage to several persons to execute the same , and hired and imployed several wicked persons to go to windsor and other places where his majesty did reside , to murder and destroy his majesty , which said persons or some of them accepted such rewards , and undertook the perpetrating thereof , and did actually go to the said places for that end and purpose . . that the said conspirators the better to compass their trayterous designs , have consulted to raise , and have procured and raised men , money , horses , arms and ammunition , and also have made application to , and treated and corresponded with the pope , his cardinals , nuncioes and agents , and with other forreign ministers and persons to raise and obtain supplies of men , money , arms and ammunition therewith to make , levy and raise war , rebellion and tumults within this kingdom , and to invade the same with forreign forces , and to surprize , seize , and destroy his majesties navy , forts , magazines and places of strength within this kingdom , whereupon the calamities of war , murders of innocent subjects , men , women and children , burnings , rapines , devastations , and other dreadful miseries and mischiefs must inevitably have ensued to the ruine and destruction of this nation . . and the said conspirators have procured and accepted , and delivered out several instruments , commissions and powers made and granted by , or under the pope , or other vnlawful and vsurped authority , to raise and dispose of men , moneys , arms , and other things necessary for their wicked and traiterous designs , and namely a commission for the said henry lord arundel of wardour to be lord chancellor of england , another commission to the said william earl of powis to be lord treasurer of england , another commission to the said john lord bellasis to be general of the army to be raised , another commission to the said william lord petre to be lieutenant general of the same army , and a power for the said william viscount stafford to be paymaster of the army . . that in order to encourage themselves in prosecuting their said wicked plots , conspiracies and treasons , and to hide and hinder the discovery of the same , and to secure themselves from justice and punishment , the conspirators aforesaid , their complices and confederates , have used many wicked and diabolical practices , ( viz. ) they did cause their priests to administer to the said conspirators an oath of secrecy together with their sacrament , and also did cause their said priests upon confessions to give their absolutions upon condition that they should conceal the said conspiracy . and when about the month of september last sir edmundbury godfrey a justice of peace , had according to the duty of his oath and office taken several examinations & informations concerning the said conspiracy and plot , the said conspirators or some of them by advice , assent , counsel and instigation of the rest , did incite and procure divers persons to lie in wait and pursue the said sir edmundbury godfrey divers days , with intent to murder him , which at last was perpetrated and effected by them , ( for which said horrid crimes and offences robert green , henry berry , and lawrence hill have since been attainted , and dominick kelly and girald and others are fled for the same ) after which murder , and before the body was found , or the murder known to any but the complices therein , the said persons falsly gave out , that he was alive and privately married ; and after the body found , dispersed a false and malitious report , that he had murdered himself . which said murther was committed with design to stifle and suppress the evidence he had taken and had knowledge of , and discourage and deter magistrates and others , from acting in further discovery of the said conspiracy and plot : for which end also , the said sir edmundbury godfrey , while he was alive , was by them , their complices and favourers , threatned and discouraged in his proceedings about the same . . and of their further malice , they have wickedly contrived , by many false suggestions , to lay the imputation and guilt of the aforesaid horrid and detestable crimes upon the protestants ; that so thereby they might escape the punishments they have justly deserved , and expose the protestants to great scandal , and subject them to persecution and oppression in all kingdoms and countries , where the romish religion is received and professed . all which treasons , crimes and offences above mentioned , were contrived , committed , perpetrated , acted and done by the said william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , william lord petre , henry lord arundel of wardour , and john lord bellasis , and other the conspirators aforesaid , against our sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the laws and sta ▪ tutes of this kingdom . of all which treasons , crimes , and offences , the knights , citizens and burgesses in parliament assembled , do in the name of themselves , and of all the commons of england , impeach the said william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , william lord petre , henry lord arundel of wardour , and john lord bellasis , and every of them . and the said commons by protestation , saving to themselves the liberty of exhibiting at any time hereafter , any other accusations or impeachments , against the said william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , william lord petre , henry lord arundel of wardour , and john lord bellasis , and every of them ; and also of replying to the answers , which they , and every of them shall make to the premises , or any of them ; or to any other accusation or impeachment , which shall be by them exhibited ( as the cause according to course and proceedings of parliament shall require ) do pray that the said william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , william lord petre , henry lord arundel of wardour , and john lord bellasis , and every of them , be put to answer all , and every the premises ; and that such proceedings , examinations , trials and judgments , may be upon them , and every of them , had and used , as shall be agreeable to l●v and justice , and course of parliament . the humble answer of william viscount of stafford , now prisoner in his majesties tower of london , to the impeachment of high treason , and other high crimes and misdemeanors , exhibited against him and others , to the right honorable the lords spiritual and temporal in parliament , by the knights , citizens and burgesses , in parliament assembled , in the name of themselves and of the commons of england . the said viscount saving to himself all advantage and benefit of exceptions to the generality , incertainty and insufficiency of the said impeachment , most humbly beseeching their lordships thereof to take due notice , and thereunto at all times , to have a just regard ; he answereth and saith , that he is not guilty of all or any of the offences charged against him by the said impeachment , and for his tryal humbly and willingly putteth himself upon his peers : no ways doubting but that by the grace of god , and their lordships impartial justice , he shall make his innocence appear . all which he most humbly submitteth unto their lordships further consideration . stafford . lord high steward . gentlemen of the house of commons be pleased to proceed . then mr. serjeant maynard one of the committee appointed to manage the evidence , began as followeth ; my lords , may it please your lordships : by the command of the house of commons , who have imposed upon us this task , we are here to prosecute this great charge against the prisoner the lord at the bar. my lords , there are two parts that are in this great charge , there is a general , which is the subversion of the whole nation , the king himself to be murdered , the protestant religion to be suppressed , war to be introduced , and those other things that are expressed in the articles . this general is charged in particular upon this lord ; and my lords , it was in consideration how far it was fit to meddle with this general at this particular tryal . for if this lord be guilty of such crimes , it will prove well enough that there was such a plot ; but , my lords , withall we did consider when the first discovery of this plot was made , how afterwards it took cold , how rumors were raised against it , how there were endeavours to suppress the belief of it , and therefore my lords , we do conceive that it is fit we should first settle that , that there was a general plot , a plot of such a nature as the articles express . some objections we thought there might be raised , because it hath been so long in the world , some years now since the discovery of it , some persons , that is some ten or eleven prosecuted and atatinted for it , and therefore that might have been satisfaction enough that such a plot there was ; besides , that there have been publick declarations of the particulars to the world ; but being now to proceed before your lordships in a judicial way ; we did think fit , and we hope your lordships will approve of it , to spend some time in the proof of the general plot , which we hope will be to the satisfaction of your lordships and the whole world ; for we do not think that england only looks into this days tryal , but the whole world one way or other , the whole christian world is concerned in it . my lords , after the publication of these things , ( which were not judicial ) how far your lordships will believe them as judges , we know not , we will prove it now , that their policies and contrivances may be laid open to the world ; and first we offer it to your lordships , because we have made it part of the charge : and secondly we shall do it , because we think your lordships are not obliged to believe things that are in print , till we prove them by witnesses judicially before you . but the main reason why we do it is , because we would touch upon those endeavours that have been used to make this seem as if it were a kind of state plot , i know not what to call ●t , a chimaera , an imagination , and not a real thing . this they laboured many ways to effect , but we shall prove that it is a very real and a very true one , when that oats first made a discovery , it seems it had not that weight , that we think now it will clearly have with your lordships ; and had not the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey followed in the neck of it , the world as it was asleep would have lain so , but that awaked us . my lords , it fell out in this case as it did in another , when cateline the traytor was a great way off rome , and four other lords with him , cassius , cethegus and others , five in all , it came to pass , that as the great orator that was at that time said , many were so ignorant that they would not think it , many were so unwise they would not believe it ; some so ill that they would favour it ; & some so much worse that they did foster it : but all of them in not believing it , gave strength to the conspiracy & the treason . and so it did here , for we look not upon our selves as discharg'd from the treason when discover'd , but when prevented . my lords , another reason to induce us into the proof of the main plot is this , we do not look upon it as a particular offence , as if one lord was only to be questioned and appear before your lordships judicially for it ; he is indeed only before you at this time to receive his tryal , and your judgment : but my lords , this is a treason of a faction , and of a general party in the nation , 't is not this or that lord , but a great number ; 't is not this or that lord that is mentioned in the articles , but the conspiracy is of a great faction . this we do think , and this makes us so earnest to press the general before your lordships , that we may give satisfaction to your lordships and the world what this plot hath been ; and how carried on every where . my lords , the consequence of that is very great ; for my lords , if there were a general design , and a general plot , as clearly there was , for some were to act in spain , and some in france , some in other places , some in ireland , scotland and england ; and a great number of jesuits , ( we have a matter of thirty in chase about this business : ) i say my lords , if it be so , if one action be in one place , and another in another , yet if there be a common consent to accomplish this plot , then what the one does , is the act of all , and the act of all is the act of every one . my lords , the persons were many , and the places and times many they acted in , and the designs which they were to accomplish , and the means wherewith they were to accomplish them were many too : great , and wicked were their designs to destroy our king , to take him out of the world ; and why ? upon hopes of better times to them under him that should succeed him . another part of the design was , to destroy , not this or that man that stood in their way , but the whole body of the protestants here in england ; not a murder , but a massacre and a slaughter of all whosoever they were that came near them , and none were to escape , for if any meant to flee , they would be sure to cut them off ; nay , not only to destroy our king , though that be the greatest offence that our law can take hold off , but to destroy our religion , and to destroy us , because of our religon . to accomplish this ( that we may open the generals of it ) arms were to be provided , men to be raised , an army was formed in effect , and who to lead , and who to command , and who to pay ; but my lords , not only were arms to be had here among our selves , but a french aid must be fetch'd in , assistance from france must come too , intelligences and letters are written , and correspondencies had , and aids promised by the ministers from thence . my lords , 't is a strange thing that english men should contrive to have an invasion of strangers upon their own country , and surely they are the worst biggots in the world that were so zealous to destroy their own nation , and they were not wise sure , to think , that if the french did come in , they should continue great lords or great men , and yet thus it was in general ; it is very strange that it should enter into the heart of any man to destroy so many persons : but my lords , if we look upon what did incourage them , and what confirmed them in this design , and what they have published to the world about their religion , we shall not wonder at it , since they tell us 't is lawful to kill an heretick king , and the king of england is an heretick they say , and so declared , so that whosoever would kill him , did a lawful and pious piece of service to god ; nay , not only so , but a meritorious and glorious one too , for which they may be canonized for saints . my lords , we find it is no new thing , look into all the nations where the pope hath any power , or a possibility of hope to gain a power , nothing hath been able to stand in their way , but they have broken through all the bonds of nature , and other obligations to attain their ends. look into spain , king philip there removed his own son , by what means the story tells us , he was heir apparent , but he was a protestant : and there also the father puts fire to his own daughter because she was a protestant , there a spaniard goes from spain into germany to murder , and did murder his brother for no other cause but because he was a protestant . leave spain and go into france , what massacres have been committed there under the colour of a marriage in queen elizabeth's time , and before that how many hundred albingenses and waldenses have been put to the sword for religion . come we to our own country , and look into england what hath been done here , when queen elizabeth had a successor of another religion , how many attempts were there made upon her person to bring that successor in ? when king james came to the crown let us remember the gunpowder treason , wherein all the nation was to be destroyed , king , lords , and commons together , and in parliament assembled were then to be a sacrifice , a burnt-offering , though they might call it a peace-offering : for these gentlemen are for sacrifices of blood as peace-offerings , to reconcile us to the pope . if this be made out , we think , their principles having produced these fruits in other ages , we may believe they would do so now . what has been said as history of former times is not offered as evidence of fact to the present case , but induces a probability that what hath been done by such persons may be done by them again . but , my lords , we shall make it clear , and bring it home to this lord , that he hath had his head , his tongue , his hand , his heart and his purse in this damnable and horrible contrivance and treason for the destroying of the king , the government , our religion , and our nation . we shall bring it home to him : but my part is only to open the general conspiracy . and indeed my lords , it is an heavy burden on my aged shoulders , considering that the winter of infirmity and age is growing so fast upon me . my lords , the particulars concerning this noble lord , because the credit of it rests on the testimony only of one man , viz. mr. oats , whose testimony being taken by sir edmunbury godfrey a justice of peace , and kept in writing by him , then sir edmundbury godfrey was way-laid , and murdered by men of the popish religion , thereby to suppress the examination that he had taken . this startled and opened the eyes of the world to look about us for farther discovery , lest we should be led as oxen to the slaughter not knowing whether we went. afterward it pleased god to bring some of their own religion and party to make farther discovery . whereupon several jesuits guilty of the plot were therefore prosecuted and brought to judgment and death . after the murder of godfrey several fables were spread abroad , as if he were alive and married , as was declared to several lords , others of the party reported he had murdered himself ; but his body being found ; it was hard for the party to invent or tell , whether he first strangled himself , and then run himself through , or first run himself through , and then strangled himself ; that was a dilemma to disprove their fables touching godfrey's murder . it then fell out , that mr. bedlow came as a second discoverer , whose testimony concurred with oats . and then there being two witnesses , as is necessary in case of treason , the design was to take off bedlow that there should remain but one , a single witness . in order to which reading tempts bedlow with rewards to lessen his former testimony , and qualifies that which he had deposed positively was but matter of hear say ; for which reading the instrument in that design and attempt , was indicted and convicted by three witnesses , and suffered accordingly . but then this attempt upon bedlow failing , the next attempt was to take off oats his testimony , by charging him with an infamous offence ; for which purpose one knox is imployed , who suborns lane and osborn , and they swore it against oats . but on re-examination confess the subornation and falshood of their design : and knox and lane are therefore indicted and found guilty . thus when the treason was discovered , the murder of an officer of justice is made the means to hide it , and then false and infamous stories set on foot of that officer to hide that murder ; and perjury and subornation the means to blast the discoverers . these wicked and ill practices we take to be a second reproof of the plot both in general and particular , the records of which convictions are here before your lordships ready to be proved . for cui bono ? none would do such wicked practices but to hide a greater sin and worse designs if possible will be opened , and proved by one to whom that is particularly appointed . my lords , we speak this that the world may receive satisfaction we will let our evidence be all open and publick in the face of the sun , and shew we go not about by private subornations , though there are endeavours to encounter us by such . my lords , if we make out these things , here is matter enough for the satisfaction of the world as to the general contrivance ; but my lords , as you sit here as judges of this lord , the prisoner at the bar , we must bring it down to particular persons , and we shall do it even to him that those things which were mentioned in general were his contrivance at least-wise , as a man highly ▪ deeply guilty of conspiring the kings death , and in order to that , of raising an army , and the other things that have been opened . my lords , i beseech you to pardon me if i have troubled you too long ; the particulars were many , and i have had little help to prepare it from any body but my self , but i submit my self to your lordships , and hope that what is wanting in me will be supplyed by others that follow ; and i also hope you will find no defect in our evidence at all , whatsoever may have been in the opening of it . then sir francis winnigton another of the committee appointed for the management of the evidence , began as followeth ; my lords , i shall begin where mr. serjeant maynard ended , and confine my self to this case as it stands before you , and to open the particular evidence relating to the lord , the now prisoner at the bar. my lords , i look upon the cause of this day to be the cause of the protestant religion , and i doubt not but that plot which has alarm'd all christendom , will be so clearly made out in this tryal , that the most malicious of our enemies will henceforth want confidence to deny it . that the religion of the papists does countenance and encourage the murdering of princes , the massacring of such as they miscall hereticks , and the committing of all sorts of impiety in order to promote their superstitions , and idolatries , has been mentioned by the gentleman who spoke before me , and i should mispend time to say more of a truth so well known in so great and so learned a presence . i will therefore directly apply my self to the business of the day , to represent to your lordships our evidence of the plot in general , and of the guilt of this lord at the bar in particular . in order to which , i shall crave your lordships leave that i may use this method ; first , to shew what advantageous opportunities the papists had to enter into , and undertake this great and detestable conspiracy . secondly , to prove the reality of the plot in general , which i look upon as a very easie undertaking . thirdly , to state the particular evidence against the prisoner at the bar by which he will appear to have been one of the principal conspirators in this horrid design , to murder our soveraign , ( whom god preserve ) to extirpate the protestant religion , and to subvert totally the government and fundamental laws of this kingdom . my lords , to shew what extraordinary advantages the papists had to enter upon this conspiracy , will very naturally lead us into our proof of it , and therefore i shall speak somewhat to that in the first place . it is not unknown to your lordships , or to any others who have in the least degree inquired into affairs , that his majesty has been so unhappy as that ( unawares to him ) some ministers who have been papists at the bottom , and others that have drove on their interest , have crept into his councils , and thereby gave great opportunities to advance popery . 't is most true , that as soon as these ill ministers were detected , and their ill designs discovered , his majesty did discharge them . but to the misfortune of the king and his people , as ill men have been recommended to succeed them , and came into their places . in the next place , my lords , there did appear in some men too easie and favourable a disposition towards the papists . they were grown strangely moderate towards these old enemies of our church and state. new projects of reconciling us were set on foot , and books were written to distinguish the church of rome from the court of rome . one of those books , which was printed the year before the discovery of the plot , pretends , that there ought to be a difference made between papists of loyal and disloyal ●●●nciples . this book , as it was written more artificially than the rest , and published in so critical and dangerous a juncture , deserves , and i doubt not in time will have , a particular consideration . 't is easie to believe how great encouragement this must give to the romanists , to see how very willing men were to meet them , and how freely the pen was drawn in their favour . another great encouragement , my lords , which the papists had , was , that by the means of those ministers who were secretly of their faction , whensoever his majesty was pleased to command the laws made against them in the reign of queen elizabeth and king james , to be put in due execution , his good intentions were frustrated , and the severity of those laws was turned upon the protestant dissenters . this was a masterpiece of rome , not only to divert from themselves the edge of those laws which were designed against them ; but to turn them upon the protestants , and to make them useful to advance the romish interest . and when they had thus divided and distracted us , then was the fairest time for them to attempt to destroy us utterly , and to make sharp their weapons in order to a massacre . but , my lords , that which gave the papists the greatest encouragement to enter into this detestable conspiracy , was , that they had ( to the great unhappiness of this kingdom & the protestant religion ) the expectation & hopes of a popish successor . this was an opportunity not to be lost . they had abundant experience of his majesties firmness in the protestant religion , both during his exile and since his happy restauration , and how resolutely he had kept that promise which he made in his letter from breda , that neither the unkindness of some protestants , nor the civilities of some papists should in the least degree startle him , or make him swerve from his religion . they therefore could have no hopes of arriving at their point , the re-establishment of their church , whilst the king liv'd ; and it was too great a hazard to expect his majesties death by the course of nature : and therefore , like true papists that would stick at no wickedness to accomplish their designs , they threw off all bonds of loyalty and allegiance , and resolved to destroy our soveraign , whose life was the only obstacle in their way . this was the last and most wicked part of their plot , which though it consisted of very many parts , yet this was the principal ; and our evidence against the lord at the bar will chiefly run to this part of the design . i have only mentioned some of those encouragements which the world plainly saw the papists had , before the plot was detected : but since the discovery , it has been abundantly prov'd , that it had been carrying on for many years , and that so universally , that it is a wonderful thing it appeared no sooner . my lords , i come now to our evidence ; and though it may seem unnecessary to prove to your lordships general plot of the papists , who are so well satisfied of it already , and have more than once declared so to the world ; yet because it is the most natural method for us , first to prove that there was a conspiracy , before we attempt to prove this lord to have been one of the conspirators , we shall beg your leave as to that particular ; and as we shall be careful not to take up too much of your time , so we well know your lordships will allow us all the time necessary to give our evidence . we have many records , things reduced to judgment , whereby the plot is most undoubtedly proved , and which are legal evidences before your lordships . the attainders of several jesuits and priests , the attainder of langhorn and of coleman , whom i should have named in the first place . we have also the conviction of those that were prosecuted for the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey , and there is a conviction , though not for murder , yet for cutting the throat of mr. arnold . 't is true he is not dead , yet , as to the publick , i count him murdered by the papists , though he be alive in the world . my lords , we have convictions not only of treasons , murders and cutting of throats , but of almost all other villanies whatsoever . as of attempts to suborn witnesses , and to scandalize the kings evidence ; and to that we shall produce the record concerning readings attempt upon bedlow ; that concerning the suborning of knox and lane to swear buggery against dr. oats : and the conviction of tasborough and price to corrupt dugdale , a principal witness as to this plot. i only mention these particulars , my lords , and certainly as you are a great court of record you will take notice of them . it would be a hard thing perhaps to spend the time in reading all , since all of them are made known to the world already , but we shall in the course of our evidence produce them , and you may read such of them as you please . all the use we make of them is for the proof of the general plot , which is requisite to be done , for it will be hard to believe the prisoner guilty of the plot , if there were no such plot at all . my lords , we shall make appear to you things which have not yet been brought into judgment . in the year ( . ) we shall prove by a witness that was then abroad , and discoursed with anderton , campion , green , and several other priests and jesuits , that they did acquaint him that there would be great alteration in england ere long , that the king was a heretick and excommunicated , and might be destroyed ; and this doctrine they continually and industriously preached . and they further said , if once the king were removed , ( who alone stood in the way ) their religion must needs flourish ; for this reason , ( as the witnesses will speak ) that the duke of york was on their side . my lords , we shall prove , that they had in england men no less industrious amongst them , some whereof have been executed ; gavan by name , who made it his business to go up and down in several counties of this kingdom , to prove by scripture , councils , and examples , that it was a lawful undertaking to kill his majesty . these things i name , as necessary in order to introduce our particular evidence , i am unwilling to dwell longer upon this point of the general plot. i shall produce the records , and produce our several witnesses , mr. oats and others that will give you a full and plain account of it . my lords , having done with the general plot , i come now to open the particular evidence against my lord , the prisoner at the bar. as to him , my lords , our evidence stands not upon conjectures , or upon meer probability , because this lord is ( as we well know ) a zealous papist , and hath owned himself so , but we have express particular proofs against his person . my lords , we have one witness to produce to your lordships who will prove , that in september ( . ) there was a consult of some priests and other conspirators at tixall in staffordshire , my lord aston's house , for killing of the king , where my lord stafford was present . and by a discourse in the same month , we shall prove what reasons this lord did give , why he and their party undertook the murdering of the king , because he said , that he and many cathol●ck families had no recompence for their loyalty ▪ but if any thing fell it was disposed of to rebels and traytors . this he resented deeply ; but above all , the obligation of his conscience and of his religion persuaded him to it , and confirmed him in his resolution to go on in this horrid design . my lords , we will go farther , and prove that this lord offered l. out of his own purse to carry on the plot , and particularly this part of it for killing the king. we shall produce to your lordships a witness to whom he made this offer , as looking upon him to be a faithful man , and having received so great a character of him from one evers a priest , that he thought he might safely communicate the matter to him , and the argument he urged to persuade the witness , besides the l. which he said upon his application to harcou●t and ireland they should pay him , was this , that others as well as he was employed in the same design , that it was the only way to establish the romish religion in england , that he would lay an everlasting obligation upon all the persons of that persuasion , and that he should not only have his pardon , but be canonized for it . my lords , this is the substance of the testimony of the first witness which we shall produce against my lord stafford , and that is so express as i think it can hardly be answered . my lords , our next witness says thus ; ( for i shall but open the substance of what they say ) in june or july . there were several letters from this lord at the bar , to the jesuits in london , in which his lordship did declare , his readiness to serve them in their great design ; and in june ( . ) the latter end of the month , my lord stafford came to mr. fenwicks chamber in drury-lane , ( he went not then by the name of my lord stafford , but by the name of mr. howard of effingham ) and there he did receive a commission from fenwick to be paymaster-general of the army which was to be raised for the carrying on the plot. his lordship told them he was then going into the country , but he hoped he should soon hear from them , that they had done the business , at least , that it would be done before his lordship did return . to which fenwick made answer ; your lordship must look after the business as well as other persons , and there will be need of some to countenance it in town ; thereupon the lord , the prisoner at the bar , said , that they had been often deceived by this prince and been patient with him , but they would bear no longer , but were now resolved to do the work without delay , for their patience was worn out . several other particular circumstances the witnesses will acquaint your lordships withal , which i shall not take up your time with . my lords , we have a third witness as considerable and particular as any of the rest , one that lived three years in the lady powis house , had his education there , and was persuaded by that lady and by one morgan a jesuit to become a fryer , and to that end was sent to doway ; but not liking to continue at doway , ( he will tell you the reason why ) he escaped to france , and at paris came to his brother , a benedictine monk there , who advised him to go for england . but whilst he staid at paris , this gentleman , by the means of his brother and other priests , grew into a great samiliarity with my lord stafford , who was then in france , and who at last came to have such a great confidence in him , that his lordship could not hold , but told him , that though he had disobliged all his friends by his going away from doway , yet he had something to propose to him which would be a means to reconcile him to h●s friends , and bring him into preserment , and into the friendship of all good catholicks , whom he would oblige by it . the gentleman was willing to embrace so happy an opportunity , and desired to know what it was , could procure him so great a good ; my lord stafford , the prisoner at the bar , told him , it was a thing of very great importance , and , after having required from him all possible obligations of secrecy , he told him plainly what great benefits would accrew to himself , and what advantage to the catholick cause , if he would make himself and the nation happy by undertaking to kill the king of england , who was an heretick , and consequently a rebel to god almighty . my lord stafford did believe the witnesses did embrace this proposal warmly , and therefore directed him to prepare to go for england , and to go before hand from paris to deep , where he would meet him , and go over with him . but it seems my lord stafford met with some diversion , for he did not keep his word with him in coming , and so this gentleman , being disappointed , went over without him ; but fearing to be called upon to the same service , he returned back again suddenly , and went into the french army . my lords , we shall produce these witnesses against the lord at the bar , and when they have proved to your lordships what i have opened , any one , who was not acquainted with the popish party , would believe they would be at a loss how to acquit themselves from this charge . all manner of foul and indirect practices have been used by them to terrifie , to corrupt and to scandalize our witnesses ; all manner of objections have been made to our evidence . if the witness does not come up to speak directly to every point , we are told , he says nothing at all ; if he speaks directly , they cry , he is not to be believed . thus they have a ready answer to every witness that has been , or ever shall be produced , either that he says nothing material , or that nothing that he says ought to have any credit . but we doubt not , by this tryal before your lordships , if we cannot stop their mouths , at least to convince all the world besides , of the reality of this plot. it will be no wonder if their confidence goes on still to frame cavils , they are used to scandalize the government , and they cannot give it over . how often has his majesty under his great seal , published and declared this conspiracy ? how often has he press'd his parliaments to go on to bring the conspirators to punishment , and at the opening of this very parliament , he says plainly , that he does not believe himself safe from their designs . your lordships also have voted the unquestionable truth of the plot , and so have the commons ; yet these men are so hardy , as still to deny the plainest truth so confirm'd as this hath been . nay , my lords , their malice goes yet farther , for they have been so bold as to whisper up and down , and industriously to spread reports before the trial , as if this lord at the bar , and the rest who are impeached should certainly be acquitted . we do hope to be able to detect the authors of this great scandal , and the commons doubt not of your lordships concurrence to assist them in bringing them to their deserved punishment . this is sure , the first time that ever any sort of men presumed to reflect upon the justice of this high and noble court. your ancestors , my lords , did by their honour , courage , and justice , preserve our ancestors : the advantage of which , we , who are descended from them , do now enjoy , and we shall never have occasion to doubt in the least , but that your lordships will tread in their steps . you have in your hands a great opportunity to make your zeal for truth , and for the protestant religion famous to posterity . no artifice or malice can create the least jealousie in us , that ever your lordships should shew any partiality or injustice to the commons of england , to your judgement this cause is submitted , and when we have your judgement , we doubt not but we shall drive popery out of this english world. my lords , we shall go on to the proof of our cause , and i hope this will be a happy day to us and the whole protestant interest . then mr. treby also one of the committee appointed for the management of the evidence , began as followeth ; my lords , these two learned gentlemen have fully discharged their province . i shall proceed to call our witnesses to give their testimony . but before we produce them , your lordships will be pleased to take notice , that our evidence will consist of two parts ; general and particular ; the general , to shew the universal conspiracy ; the particular , to shew what special part this noble lord , the prisoner at the bar had in it . and though in the first part my lord stafford may not be particularly named , yet that evidence will be pertinent and proper for us to give , in this trial of my lord stafford ; for , we charge him not with the private treason wherein he with his immediate complices only might be concerned , but it is a treason of the popish faction , or at least , the principal and active papists . we lay it in our articles of impeachment . that there was an execrable plot contrived and carried on by the papists , and that the conspirators acted diverse parts , and in diverse places beyond sea , as well as here . it was a treason that did best●ide two lands , england indeed was the thing aimed at ; the destruction of the religion , government and liberty of england was the end ; but the means and instruments were not collected here only , but part of them were to be brought in from abroad . this is an enterprise too extensive to be intirely manag'd by a single nobleman , and though we look upon my lord stafford as a great malefactor , yet we cannot think him so great a man as to be able within his own sphere to compass this whole design . should we not take this course of evidence first to prove the general plot , it might be a great and just objection in my lords mouth to say , you charge 〈◊〉 with a design of subverting the kingdom , how is that possible to be undertaken by me , and those i have had opportunity to converse and confederate with ? a mighty part of the catholick world had need be engaged for such a purpose . my lords , if this would be a material objection from this lord , then will it be requisite for us to obviate and prevent the objection by shewing first , that there was such a grand and universal design of papists , in which this lord was to co-operate for his distinct share ; though perhaps when we descend to our particular evidence it will appear , that his part hath been great , and manag'd with malice as great as any . my lords , we shall begin with a witness , a gentleman whose education has given him the opportunity of knowing the inside of their affairs , and we presume he will give you a satisfactory account , his name is mr. john smith . lord high steward . what do you call him to , gentlemen ? mr. treby . to the general plot , my lords . lord stafford , may it please your lordships , i know not who he is , nor his name , i humbly beseech your lordships that this witness , who ever he be , and all the rest that have any thing to witness against me , may look upon me face to face , according to the words of the statute . i humbly beseech your lordships to grant me this , which i take to be according to law ; and that each may give his evidence alone , and that both against me and for me , one may not know what the other says . lord high stew. my lord , you shall have all the fair proceeding that can be . lord stafford . the law says , my accusers must look me face to face . i desire to have the words read . lord high steward . your lordship may see him there where he stands up . then mr. smith turned , and looked upon my lord stafford . lord safford . i do see him , but do not know him . lord high steward . swear him . clerk. the evidence that you shall give in the tryal of william viscount stafford , shall be the truth , the whole truth , and nothing but the truth , so help you god , and the contents of this book . lord high steward . your lordship observes he is not brought as a particular witness against your lordship , but to prove the general design of your party . lord stafford . 't is still concerning me . lord high steward . look upon my lord stafford ( which he did ) and now tell your evidence . mr. treby . this is mr. smith , my lords . and that which we would examine this witness to , is the general design of the plot , what knowledge he hath had of it here or beyond sea , the gentleman is able to understand the general question . mr. smith . my lords , i remember very well , when i went first into france , i came acquainted with abbot montague , father gascoyn , and several other popish priests and jesuits , who often discoursed with me , and told me , if i would make my self a catholick i should have an employment amongst them there , and afterwards in england ; for they did not doubt but the popish religion would come in very soon ; upon which i asked his lordship the abbot one day , what reason he had to believe it ? he told me two reasons ; first , that they did not doubt but to procure a toleration of religion , by which they should bring it in without noise ; and secondly , that the gentry that went abroad did observe the novelty of their own religion , and the antiquity of theirs , and the advantages that were to be had by it . these reasons abbot montague gave me . there was one father bennet and others , that told me the chief reason was , their party was very strong in england , and in a few years they would bring it in right or wrong . all this would not prevail with me to turn papist , and i lived among them several years . at last i had a design to go to rome , and as i went i had a design to go to provence , ( and so into italy ) where there was one cardinal grimaldi coming thorough the town , and the jesuits having a great school there , i was curious to go to the school , and they were very desirous i should tarry for some time in the town ; i did , and they made much of me , and told me much to the same substance , what assurances they had of their religion coming into england . at last they had a desire i should discourse with the cardinal , which i did , and he made much of me , and he it was that perverted me to the romish religion ; upon this the cardinal shewed me a pair of hangings that were in his house , which he said did belong to the queen mother , and were bought in paris , and he told me he was acquainted with many of the nobility in england , and that he had great assurance the popish religion would prevail , and he told me there was but one in the way , and though that man was a good natured man , yet they could not so far prevail upon him , but that to accomplish their designs they must take him out of the way ; but at last i left this place and went to rome , where i lived some years in the english jesuits colledge there , and when i had lived there five years , i came to be prefect of several rooms there which are the scholars lodgings and places of study . i have heard it there often disputed in their own colledge , both preach'd and privately exhorted , that the king of england was an heretick , and that there was no king really reigning , and who ever took him out of the way would do a meritorious action . lord high steward . who was that that said so ? mr. treby . name the persons . mr. smith . father anderton , rector of the colledge , who was a very good scholar , father mumford , and one father campion , but chiefly one father southwell , one of the chief of the jesuits . and i doubting of the truth of that opinion , they did shew me several of their books there , and directed me to some passages of mariana , vasquez and bellarmine , which i have since published to the world , wherein they did assert it as a true doctrine , and as christian doctrine , what the fathers told me ; and this was never condemned at rome . besides , my lords , when i was coming from rome , with my faculty and license signed by cardinal barberino , who generally conducts , or causes to be conducted all papists to take their leave of the pope ; and before we came away ( for there were five or six of us together ) for a whole month these fathers were exhorting us , that we were not obliged to obey the king of england , and that in all private confessions we were to instruct all persons that we thought were capable of any design , that they should use all their endeavours for promoting the popish religion . i coming into england , made my application to dr. perrott , who belonged to the portugal ambassador , and was chief of the popish clergy in england : i was kept there some months , to say mass in his chappel ; and afterwards i was sent into the north , ( where there were abundance of jesuits and fryers ) to one mr. jenison's house , where knowing the principles of these people , i made it my business to rout these jesuits away , especially out of mr. jenison's house , who had a kinsman of his own that was a jesuit , and used to serve him in his house , and great complaint was made against me ; and there was one mr. smith , otherwise serjeant , in the north , who gave me intimation of it ; ond to whom i wrote to satisfie him and the clergy , of the grounds and reasons why i routed them away ; which if he be in england now , he can justifie . upon this , i received a smart letter , as a kind of reprimand for my doing so ; and he told me , that though they did agree with me in doctrine , yet they would endeavour what they could to bring in the popish religion . and taxed me sharply for appearing against it . i told him how the jesuits perverted the duke of york ; and that by that means they would be the chief men in england , though there were none of their order till queen elizabeths time . besides , my lords , in rome i saw coleman's letters , and read them once a month , as i believe ; wherein he gave us intelligence of several passages that happened in court ; how the duke and the queen , and the chief of the nobility were of their side ; how they carried matters several times ; the ways my lord clifford did use , and sir william godolphin , to effect the work ; and that they did not question but they should get my lord treasurer danby on their side too . this was in coleman's letters , and he had so much allowance for his intelligence . these letters of his i read several times in the colledge . my lords , afterwards when i came from rome , i saw abbot montague again , and he said he was very glad to see me , and that i was a priest ; well but , said i , what am i the better ? where is the employment you promised me when i should come into england ? he told me i should have it very soon , and he was very glad that i had not made my self a jesuit ; and he recommended me to dr. goffe , confessor to the queen mother ; who said , he would do any thing in the world for me , and he did not doubt but he should get a preferment for me ; which dr. goffe is now living . truly when i came into england i found all the popish clergy of england , that i discoursed with , of the same opinion , that they did not doubt but the romish religion would soon come in . and besides , in the north there was gathering of money , in which i was ordered to be one of the chief men ; but i was against it : i told them i would do nothing in it , i thought it was illegal to send any money beyond sea : they told me it was charity only to repair the college at doway : i told them it was strange that there should be so much money raised only to repair one college which would serve three or four colleges ; and i perswaded mr. jenison and all other persons i had to do with , not to meddle with it . as to this raising of the money , i conceive it may be inferr'd , it was for some other private business ; and i believe , was for the carrying on the design . as for the gentleman at the bar , my lord stafford , i know nothing of my own particular knowledge , but only this , therewas one thomas smith , sir edward smith's brother , that lived at a place not far off the place where i lived , who was one that contributed in paying the money that was then collecting : he was the man that writ a letter up to my lord stafford , to complain of two or three justices of the peace that were active against popery , upon which there was one that was turned out , that i think is now of the honourable house of commons — mr. treby . name him . mr. smith . sir henry calverley . the other was not turned out . so i asked smith , when i was lately in the country , about it , for i heard a rumor , that there was a letter of this mr. smiths found in my lord staffords chamber , and i was told it by a parliament man , one collonel tempest : so said i to him , now you will be concerned in the plot. no said he , i care not for that letter , it will signifie nothing ; for my lord won't keep by him any thing of any moment . i asked him what he knew about my lord ; he told me he writ another letter to my lord to know whether he would make a conveyance of his estate away , and whether he apprehended they were in danger : and he told me , his lordships answer was , that several did so , but he would not , for he expected some sudden change or alteration : i asked him what change or alteration he understood by it . sir , said he , what can be understood by it , but an alteration of the government and religion ? i am sure said he , my lord is so wise a man , that he would not write so without some ground . this is all i can say to the gentleman at the bar , and this is true by the oath i have taken . mr. treby . my lords , i did observe mr. smith in the beginning of his testimony ( speaking of the discourse he had at rome ) said , they told him there was one in the way ; i presume 't is not uneasy to conjecture who was that one . lord high stew. it was surely the king. mr. treby . but we would rather have it explained by him himself . mr. smith . father anderton , and father southwell , did say that the king was a good man , but he was not for their turn , and he was the only man that stood in the way . mr. treby . did they name the king ? mr. smith . yes , it was the common discourse all over the country . mr. treby . my lords , i desire mr. smith in the next place may give an account of the methods they were to use to accomplish this design , the firing of the city , and the rest . mr. smith . as to the burning of london i heard nothing beyond seas at all but this , it was discoursed that the papists did it , and the like , but they denied it , and they said it came accidentally in a bakers house ; but this i have often heard them say that it was no great matter if it had been all burnt . lord high stew. will you ask him any more questions yet ? mr. treby . no , we have done with him . lord high stew. have you concluded your evidence , sir ? mr. smith . yes . lord high stew. my lord stafford , will your lordship ask him any questions . lord stafford . i desire to know how long ago it was , my lord , since he was made a priest . sir fran. winn. my lords , with your lordships leave , no man is bound to answer a question whereby he shall accuse himself ; therefore under favour the question is somewhat harsh , and we demand your judgment in it . lord high stew. what is the question your lordship would have asked him . l. stafford . i will not ask it since 't is an offence , but did not he say he said mass , pray how long ago was that ? lord high stew. i will ask him a question , are not you a protestant ? mr. smith . yes , my lord. lord high stew. how long have you been so ? mr. smith . i have been a protestant near upon two years . lord high stew. how long ago before were you perverted ? mr. smith . some six or seven years . lord high stew. that is nine years . that was i suppose about ( . ) mr. smith . i was always bred a protestant , and was so abroad till i went towards rome . lord high stew. it is not criminal to have been a priest , if he have conformed . l. stafford . i have no more to say to him . lord high stew. have you any more questions to ask him ? l. stafford . no , i never saw him before , he may be as honest a gentleman for ought i know as any one here . mr. treby . then if your lordship have no more questions to ask him , he may withdraw . my lords , the next witness we produce is to the general still , and that is mr. stephen dugdale . lord stafford . is he only to speak to the general , or to me ? mr. treby . to the general , we shall tell your lordship when we come to the particulars . sir franc. winn. my lords , with your lordships favour , we have opened our case , first , that we would go on with the general , while we are upon that head we will only call those that speak to the general , but it may happen that one witness may speak to both ; but we shall divide his testimony when we come to observe upon it . mr. treby . my lords , i take leave to acquaint your lordships , that mr. dugdale hath but a low voice , and your lordships will not hear him without a command of silence , ( which was done by proclamation , and mr. dugdale sworn . ) mr. treby . mr. dugdale , take notice , we call you now only to the general part of the plot , what discourses you have heard from priests in general concerning any part of the plot. and you are not to give your particular evidence against this noble lord , my lord stafford , till we call you thereunto . lord high stew. what say you sir ? mr. dugdale . about fifteen or sixteen years i have been acquainted , that there was a design carrying on for the bringing in the romish religion . i have at several times , by the means of my ghostly father , that was mr. evers , been acquainted , that there were several lords , and several priests in several places in england that were to carry it on , that is , they were to have mony and arms ready for those that wanted against the death of the king. i have seen several letters which have come from paris , rome , and st. omers , all relating to this , to incourage mr. evers . and that he should go on to incourage the rest that were ingaged . for that purpose i read some of them , and intercepted them , because they were all directed to me . mr. evers hath sent me upon messages , sometimes by letters , and sometimes by word of mouth , and all tended for the introducing of their religion , that all should be ready with money and arms against the kings death . for i did hear nothing till of late about the killing of the king. in particular , there came one letter to evers , from my lord stafford , to shew that things went on well beyond sea , and hoped they did so here . i saw another time some letters which were also transmitted to my hands by a messenger that came from boscobel , which did come from paris , and so to st. omers , from whence they came to harcourt , and harcourt had delivered the letters to have the opinion of some lords : all which contained advice which they had received from paris , which they counted extraordinary good . the purport of these letters were to shew there was no way could be more likely to do their work , than if any sudden death should happen to the king then to throw it upon the presbyterians , who had killed the old king , and were likeliest to be thought to have done this , and so they might easily get the protestants , those of the church of england , to join with the papists against the presbyterians , who would by that become odious , and so should weaken the party the more easily to accomplish their design . i have of late several times been in company with priests and other gentlemen in the country , when they have had consultations both for the introducing their own religion , aud taking away the kings life , which they did always intend to be about november , december , or january ( . ) it was late in the year , but all that year ( . ) this was their consultation . i have been sent to the jesuits , some of them , particularly to mr. vavasor and mr. gavan for some moneys , for there was a general collection , and there was the sum of five hundred pounds at one time which i received , and gave to mr. evers , and he returned it to london for the carrying on this design , and for discharging an account of arms and things received from beyond sea. and it was agreed that my lord aston , sir james symons and others , should go in october . to dispose of the arms which they had so received , some here , and some beyond sea , to the value i heard say of . moreover i did hear that they were to have men raised there as well as here . so i have heard from mr. evers , and mr. gavan and others , and i have been also by when it hath been discoursed that the king of france was acquainted with all these designs , and that he would furnish us with men , and should not be wanting with all other aid and assistance , if there should be any alteration , if the king should die or be taken away , or to that purpose : i have been several times put upon to make foot-races to draw people together , that they might the better have discourses together without suspicion . i was likewise put in trust by the jesuits all the while the plot was carrying on , and particularly for two years , all the letters relating to the plot came to my hand , some of which i opened , and some i kept in my own hands , and particularly i had one that came to my hands which was about the death of sir edmundbury godfrey , for when i carried it to mr. evers , he said , there was one of our enemies taken out of the way ; and it was contained in the letter , this night sir edmondbury godfrey is dispatched ; which by the date of it was the . of october . i told him that that would prove a discouragement to us , and would be the ruine of all the design ; he said , not so , it would rather prove otherwise , for he was one that was active in punishing lewd and debauched persons , and it would rather be put upon them than us , as done out of revenge . mr. treby . pray sir speak the particular time when that letter came into staffordshire . mr. dugdale . the . of october , . which was monday . mr. treby . the date of it pray tell us . mr. dugdale . the . of october . mr. treby . the very night that it was done . mr. dugdale . likewise when i did hear there was like to be an alteration in the government , and having such fair promises , i was incouraged to it , and was very willing to contribute to the design , and i did then make over an estate which i had of four hundred pound value for that purpose , and for the praying for my soul. and when my lord aston and i should come to account , as there was money over and above due to me , i did likewise promise , because i saw money would be wanting , i would give them a hundred pound more . there were several other gentlemen , as mr. heveningham , sir james symons , my lord aston , mr. draycott , mr. howard , and mr. gerard , who did to my knowledge contribute towards the carrying on of this charge , for defraying of money and raising arms , and paying for them . and i have seen letters from beyond sea , that have been to mr. evers , that all things have been ready as to the arms , and there only wanted orders how they should be disposed of , and i have been several times brought to the oath of secrecy for fear i should disclose it , and particularly that time that i went away from my lord astons , which was on a monday morning , mr. evers gave it me about the . or . of november , . and i did then promise by all the promises i could make , and upon the sacrament in his chamber , that i would not disclose it ; but having others to advise me in it , such as could better do it , that told me such oaths were better broken than kept , and thereupon i came to discover the thing , which i have done to the best of my knowledge . i am very loath to charge my memory in particular , about times , or how many were in company , but those that i am sure of ; but there hath been in company at the consultation several times , mr. heveningham , sir james symons , mr. vavasor , mr. petre , mr. howard , and my lord aston himself ; when there hath been speech about the design , for the introducing of religion , and for taking order about money to buy arms , and particularly when my lord stafford was by about the death of the king , and that was about september . mr. treby . mr. dugdale , you speak of leavying arms , and of the oath of secrecy that was given you , were there not other spiritual weapons used ? was there not an indulgence , or such a thing ? mr. dugdale . there was an indulgence about . or thereabouts , which came through irelands hands , transmitted from beyond sea , and so to mr evers , and mr. gavan was put on to publish it , which he did one time at boscobel . and it was likewise at all private chappels , that whosoever , was active for the introducing the romish religion , or killing the king , should have a free pardon of all his sins . mr. foley . pray declare what arguments have been used by your priests , to induce you to this design ? lord high steward . raise your voice , that we may hear what you ask . mr. foley . we would know what arguments have been used to perswade to this design ? mr. dugdale . they have told me in their meetings , the king was an excommunicated heretick , and he was out of the pale of the church , therefore it was lawful to kill him , and it was no more than the killing of a dog . sir john trevor . my lords , i desire to ask him one question further , what he hath heard about a massacre that was intended ? l. h. stew. have you heard of any massacre that was to be ? mr. dugdale , i have heard that about the time the king should be killed , several should be provided with arms , and such instruments , and rise all of a sudden at an hours warning , and to come in upon the protestants , and cut their throats ; that was one proposal : and if any did escape , there should be an army to cut them off in their flight , mr. treby . my lords , i desire to ask him one question further , whether he ever knew or heard of mr. oates and bedloe till the plot was detected ? mr. dugdale . i have heard of them from priests , as messengers intrusted by them , but no otherwise . l. h. steward . when did you hear that ? mr. dugdale . i have formerly declared it . mr. treby . ay , when ? l. h. steward . before the discovery or after ? mr. dugdale . before the discovery . mr. treby . my lords , the reason of the question , and the use we make of it is this , we charge the papists with the conspiracy of a plot , and they charge our witnesses with a conspiracy to accuse : now it appears , that mr. dugdale had not any knowledge of the other witnesses , and only had heard of them as persons concern'd ; so it could not possibly be a joint contrivance amongst them . sir john trevor . my lords , i desire to ask this question , whether mr. dugdale hath seen any letters from whitebread to evers , and what instructions were in those letters to evers , about the persons to be concerned , and what kind of creatures he was to imploy in this great design of theirs ? mr. dugdale . i saw a letter from whitebread , to give mr evers a caution who he did employ or trust in the design ; for he told him there had been good care taken therein hitherto ; and it were no matter whether they were gentlemen of quality or not , so they were stout and trusty , or to that purpose . l. h. steward . what should they be trusty for ? mr. dugdale . for the killing the king. l. h. steward . was that said plainly in the letter ? mr. dugdale . to the best of my remembrance in those very words . l. h. steward . was there no cypher or character ? mr. dugdale . there was no cypher or character that i know of , nothing but two letters for his name . mr. treby . my lords , i desire mr. dugdale may give an account of those papers he speaks of ; what became of them , and tell us the reason why they were not produced . mr dugdale . my lords , when i was by the instruction of mr. evers , to take my flight , i conveyed all my papers , that either belonged to him or my self , for the carrying on of the plot , and carryed them to an house not far remote from my lord aston's , and by the help of two maids — mr. treby . name them . mr. dugdale . elizabeth eld , and anne eld. and they two did prepare a fire in their chamber for that purpose , and they assisted me to burn them . i was in a great consternation , and great fear , in regard i must fly and abscond my self ; and indeed i did it with tears in my eyes . and whilst we were burning of the papers , one of them spy'd a little paper-book , by chance , and she asked me , whether that should be burnt ; i told her , no ; burn not that , for there is no treason in it . with that one of them ask'd me , is there any treason in the rest ? and i put them off , to the best of my knowledge , and would not give them a direct answer . sir john trevor . why did you consent to burn them ? mr. dugdale . because i knew they would discover me , and others that were concerned in the plot. sir fr. winn. your lordships will be pleased to observe the burning of the letters was before he discovered the plot , or any thing . mr. sacheverell . my lords , we desire he may be asked one question , he told your lordships of the letter that came into staffordshire about the death of sir edmonbury godfrey , but he hath not told you of the reason why he was to be taken away . we desire he will let your lordships know what reasons they gave for it ? mr. dugdale . my lords , i was desirous to know how things went , being concerned as well as mr. evers ; and i asked what the reason was they took away his life ? mr. evers told me , that there was a message sent to mr. coleman , to desire him that he would not reveal what he knew concerning the plot , or any thing of that nature . mr. sacheverell . from whom was that message sent ? mr. dugdale . from the duke of york . and coleman did send word back again , what was it the nearer ? for he had been so foolish as to reveal all to sir edmondbury godfrey , who had promised to keep it all as a secret . but upon the examination of oates , before sir edmondbury godfrey , as a justice of peace , he was afraid he would come in an evidence against him ; and had shewn himself a little too eager , which made coleman afraid he would witness against him . and the duke of york did send word back again , that if he would take care not to reveal but conceal it , he should not come in against him , or to that purpose : and the next news we heard was the letter that he was dispatched . mr. foley . i desire he may give an account what assistance the pope gave for the carrying on of this design . mr. dugdale . i heard the pope had out of his revenue promised several sums of money for the carrying on this plot ; and particularly that he would assist the poor distressed irish , with both men and money ; and there should not be any thing wanting on his part . lord high stew. have you done with him , gentlemen ? mr. treby . yes , i think we have done with him as to the general . lord stafford . i desire to ask him then what sums of money did the pope contribute to it . l. h. steward . what sums of money did the pope contribute to this design ? mr. dugdale . i have heard of several sums in general that he was to contribute for the carrying on of the plot. l. h. steward . did you hear of any sum certain ? mr. dugdale . i do not know , but i think i have heard sometimes of ten thousand pound , or some such sum . i have been told by a servant , that formerly belonged to my lord stafford ▪ that the popes daily income was twenty four thousand pounds a day ; and that if he would do as he had promised , he was able to do very much . l. h. steward . they told you so , you do not know it otherwise . mr. treby . we have done then with him : we call mr. prance next . ( who was sworn . ) mr. treby . my lords , i desire mr prance would give us an account of what discourse he had with one mr. singleton a priest ; and when ? mr. prance . i went to one mr. singleton , a priest , at one hall's in the year ( . ) and he told me , that he did not fear but in a little time to be a priest in a parish church ; and that he would make no more to stab forty parliament men , than to eat his dinner vhich he was at , at that very time . l. h. steward . where was that ? mr. prance . at one hall's , a cook in ivy-lane . l. h. steward . will you ask him any questions , my lord ? lord stafford . no , my lord ? mr. treby . then call dr. oates . ( who was sworn ) l. h. stew. do you examine mr. oates upon the general plot , or the particular . mr. treby . only to the general now ; and we desire him to take notice he is so to speak , and to confine himself to that at present . dr. oates . my lords , in the year ( ) i was admitted into the service of the duke of norfolk , as chaplain in his house , and there i came acquainted with one bing , that was a priest in the house . and being acquainted with him , there came one kemish very often to visit him , and one singleton , who told me that i should find that the protestant religion was upon its last legs , and that it would become me , and all men of my coat ( for then i professed my self a minister of the church of england ) to hasten betimes home to the church of rome . my lords , having had strong suspicions for some years before , of the great and apparent growth of popery ; to satisfie my curiosity , i pretended some doubts in my mind . my lords , after some time had passed over , & i had some conversation with these men , i found they were not men for my turn , because being regular men , they were not men that had any great degree of learning . afterwards , my lords , i met with one hutchinson ; i found him a saint-like man , or one that was religious for religion sake ; and him i found not for my turn neither : for , my lords , my design was to deal with their casuists ; that is , those of the society . after that i had obtained the favour from him , to have some conference with one of the society , i found they were the men for my turn , because i found they were the cunning politick men , and the men that could satisfie me . after that i had some discourse with them , i pretended to be convinced by their arguments . and , my lords , after that i had thus acknowledged my conviction , i desired to be reconciled ; and accordingly on ash-wednesday , . i was reconciled . and soon after my reconciliation , strange , who was then provincial of the society , did tell me much after this way ; mr. oats , you are now reconciled to the church of rome , and you must lay down your ministry , for your ordination is invalid , and you must look upon your self as no more than a layman . pray , says he , now what course do you think to take ? i told him , i did desire to be one of their society , and to be admitted a novice into their order . he said , it was a very honest request , and a very honest desire ; and he said , he would take some time to consider of it , and he would take till the saturday following . saturday following i was sent for , by one fenwick : i lodged then in barbican , and fenwick came to me , and told me , the fathers were met at wild-house , and would speak with me . and he also told me , they had granted my request , and i should be admitted . after i was admitted , they told me , i had some years upon me , and i could not undergo those burdens they put upon younger men . but what did i think of travelling , and going beyond sea to do their business ? i did agree to it , and in april ( . ) i went aboard one luke roch , master of the bilboa merchant , bound for bilboa , having their letters of recommendation . after i arrived there , which was on a sunday , in may or june , ) i can't tell which ) i went the friday following for validolid in castile , and i got thither the tuesday following ▪ but by the way i opened certain letters , wherein was made mention of a disturbance designed in scotland . and the letters did express what hopes they had to effect their design in england , ●on the carrying on ( as they worded it ) the catholick cause , and for the advancement of the interest of the bishop of rome . my lords , after i had arrived at validolid , there were letters there got before me , which were dated in may , wherein was expressed news , that the king was dispatched , which was the cause of great joy to the fathers there ; and afterwards letters dated in may too ( but towards the latter end of may ) came , that they were mistaken , and desired the fathers there , to stifle that news . my lords , there came letters dated in june , wherein they did give an account , that they had procured one beddingfield to be confessor to the duke of york ; which beddingfield by his interest might prevail much with the duke , in order to this design . letters came also in june from st. omers , which gave them an account , that father beddingfield had assured them of the dukes willingness to comply with them , for the advancement of the catholick religion , my lords , after i had stay'd some time there , and had passed through the country for the business of the society ; i found that in the court of spain some ministers of that court had been very ready to advance money , which money was returned for england ; and that the father provincial of the jesuits of castile , by his care and industry had advanced ten thousand pound , which was promised to be paid in june following , within a twelvemonth after . my lords , in july i received letters out of england , wherein an account was given there , to the fathers in spain , that they were sending them a mission of twelve students , four whereof were to go to madrid ▪ and eight to validolid : the conductors of these twelve students were , one father crosse ( that was his true name ) and one father mum●ord , whose true name was armstrong . these missioners arrived in december , where they had a sermon preached at their coming , by this same armstrong , wherein the oaths of allegiance and supremacy were declared to be antichristian , heretical , and devillish ; in which the kings legitimacy was vilified and abused ; and that his religion did intitle him to nothing but sudden death and destruction , in that he appeared an enemy both to god and man. these were the contents of that sermon , as near as i remember . my lords , after the meeting with several letters there , in july , august , and september , in the kingdom of spain , it was ordered , i should return for england ; and in the month of november i came for england , at which time i had letters from the provincial of castile , called by the name of padre hieronymo de corduba , who did in his letter assure the provincial in england , and the fathers here , that the ten thousand pound should be paid ( as i said hefore ) in june following . when i came for england , at london i was lodged at one grigson's , that lived in drury-lane , near the sign of the red-lyon , and there i lay till i went to st. omers ; and by the provincial and the consultors of the province , i was ordered a maintenance , and it was paid to this man for entertaining of me . i went and brought these letters to this strange , and there was father keins , lying ill upon strange's bed , and keins was saying , he was mighty sorry for honest william , ( so they called the russian that was to kill the king ) that he had missed in his enterprize : but , my lords , this i think good to tell your lordships , they were not so zealous for the destruction of the king , till the king had refused coleman the dissolving of the long parliament ▪ then they were more intent upon it , though they had several times attempted it ever since the fire of london : but when coleman was refused the dissolution of the long parliament , then were they more zealous for the destruction of the king ; but the design for the introducing the popish religion , they have been carrying on some years before the fire , by those instruments some of whom are yet alive . my lords , i left england in november old stile , and december new stile ; for when i came to st. omers it was ( as near as i can remember ) the . or . of december according to the stile of the place . i carryed with me a packet of letters from strange the provincial , and other fathers that were of the consult for the province of england to the fathers at st. omers , wherein strange did tell them , that they had great hopes of their design taking effect the next year , but as yet it would not be effected ; he said , therefore they at london thought it fit to suspend it till they saw what the parliament would do . and he did in the same letter declare , that the parliament would be about a long bill that had been brought into the commons house some sessions before , but he did not question but that the catholick party would evade that bill . and my lords , in that year some time after , we had a letter from our new provincial , whose true name was whitebread , and his counterfeit name white . this father writes to the fathers at st. omers , and therein he does order one conyers to preach upon st. thomas of canterburies day , and he did therein also tell them , that he would be as zealous for the carrying on of the design as his predecessor had been , and a sermon was accordingly preached at the sodality church , wherein after he had commended the saint whose day they celebrated for his great vertues , declaring how unworthily he was sacrificed , he did inveigh against the tyranny ( as he called it ) of temporal princes , and particularly of the king of england , and when he came to speak of the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , he declared , that he looked upon them as antichristian and devillish , and that it was fit to destroy all such as would countenance them . we have done with the year ( . ) and we come now to january . lord high stew. you speak of one keins , who ( lying upon stranges bed ) said he was sorry honest will had missed his enterprize : you have not explained who that honest will was : explain that . dr. oats . it was grove . lord high steward . but about what did he say he was sorry for him ? dr. oats . that he had missed his design . mr. foley . what was that missing of his design ? dr. oats . that he had not killed the king. my lords , in january ( . ) lord high steward . you mean according to the foreign stile ? dr. oats . yes , according to the foreign stile , my lords , we received letters out of ireland , and there , my lords , we found by the contents of those letters , that they were as busie in ireland as we were in england . we found there that the talbots and other persons were very zealous in raising of forces , and were resolved to let in the french king , provided that the parliament should urge the king to break with france . my lords , likewise in january ( as near as i can remember ) morgan was sent into ireland , as a visitor ( which is something a better place than a provincial , but only it is but temporary for the time he visits ) and he returns in february or march , and gives an account how ready the irish were to vindicate their freedom , and their religion from the oppression of the english as they called it . my lords , in february some were employed to go into some parts of germany , to liege , and to some parts of flanders , to see how the affairs there stood , and how their correspondencies stood , to see whether there was not an interruption in the correspondencies . my lords , upon their return they found , that the fathers at ghent were inclined to take into this business the secular clergy , but the fathers of st. omers , together with the provincial , did refuse the motion , because the secular clergy were more cowardly , and sought themselves and not the interest of the church , or to that purpose . my lords , in march we received letters , that there was a very shrewd attempt made upon the person of the king , and that the flint of pickering's gun or pistol was loose , and his hand shaking , the king did then escape , for which he received a discipline , and the other a severe chiding . lord high steward . you explain not the meaning of what you say ; that was not honest william , for he you say was grove . dr. oats . i mean pickering received the discipline , and william was chid ; for it was pickering's flint that was loose . my lords , this was in march , and at the latter end of march , there comes a letter from london , in which there was a summons to a consult here in london , and being summoned , there went over eight or nine from st , omers , liege , and ghent , to this consult , and i did attend then in their journey . lord high steward . when did that summons come ? dr. oats . the latter end of march , or the beginning of april , as i remember ; they had notice of it in england before , but we had notice of it just when we were to come . i think it was in april , as near as i can remember , i cannot be certain in that , my lord. we did come to town in april , there the consult was held , it begun at the white horse tavern , where they did consult about some things of the society , and afterwards they did adjourn into particular societies , where they did debate and resolve on the death of the king , and that grove should have fifteen hundred pounds for his pains , and the other being a religious man should have thirty thousand masses said for him . my lords , after staying in town a while we returned to st. omers , and after i had staid there some few days the new provincial did begin to visit his province , and comes over to st. omers , where after staying some six days he goes over away from thence to wotion . but whilst he staid at st. omers , i was ordered to go into england to attend the affairs here and for to do some other services that they should imploy me about . my lords , accordingly i did come over , and it was on the . new stile , as near as i remember , i got to calice , the . i got to dover , on the . i got to sittenburn , but between dover and sittenburn we had some boxes seized ; for at dover we met with fenwick , who is since executed , who went by the name of thompson , and carried a box with him , and a little on this side canterbury it was seized by the custom-house officers , and several little trinkets in it which were seized as french goods , and he did desire the searcher to stand his friend , and he would give him something for his pains , and told him where he should write to him in london . there was a superscription on the box to one blundel , but he should write to him by the name of thompson , at the fountain tavern neer charing-cross . we arrived in town the . of june , which is the . new stile ; it was upon a monday , and there were letters which did follow us , wherein were proposals to be made to sir george wakeman for the poisoning of the king , and that the ten thousand pounds which the spaniards had promised in january before , and was accordingly paid in london at the time , should be proposed to wakeman , to poison the king ; i found that coleman did look upon it as too little , and he thought fifteen thousand pound should be given to him . i found that langhorn thought it too much , and that he ought to do so great a piece of service for nothing , and told us he was a narrow-spirited man if he would not ingage in such a thing . my lords , there was five thousand pounds , as the books told me , paid , but i did not then see it paid , because i was then ill and not fit to stir abroad . my lords , we are now past june ( . ) in july father ashby comes to town , who did revive the proposal to sir george wakeman , but being sick of the gout , he hastened down to the bath , and when he came there , as soon as he began to be well , he was advised by the fathers to see how the catholicks stood affected in sommerset shire ; for they had had an account in march ( . ) by letters from berkshire , oxfordshire and essex , that the catholicks stood well affected , and sir william andrews did secure that the people of essex should stand to their points ; and so several men did secure that they would have them in readiness . my lords , in august ( i cannot remember every particular , but refer my self to the records of the house ) about the . of august , i find that fenwick went to st. omers , and there he was to attend the provincial home , and to give the provincial an account of the proposal accepted by sir george wakeman , but in july ( if your lordships please to give me leave to go back again ) strange comes to town , and falling in discourse about the fire of london , and the rebuilding of it , he very frankly told me how it was fired , and how many of those concerned were seized , and among the rest told me that the duke of york's guard , as by his order , did receive them , and afterwards willing to discharge them , which i forgot to mention before , but upon review of my papers , i do find , that it was told me his guard did release the prisoners that were taken as suspected about the fire , and that all the order they had for it they pretended was from the duke . but now , my lords , we return to august again . upon the . of august , i find , ireland did pretend to go to st. omers , and a letter came from him as directed from thence ; but we find by his tryal and other things since , that he went into stafford shire ; and about the . of august ( as i remember ) he was here in town . the latter part of july i communicated with dr. tongue , and gave him some particular account of affairs , i desired him to communicate it to some that might make it known to the king ; the king had notice the . of august , or the . as i remember , and by the . of september i was betray'd , and was exposed to the vengeance of these men whose contrivances i had thus discovered . so my intelligence did cease wholly the . of september ; then was i forced to keep private , and upon my examination , what information i gave before the lords and commons , i refer my self to them . lord high steward . my lord stafford , will you ask him any questions ? lord stafford . no , my lord , i am not at all concerned in his evidence . lord high steward . you say you were betray'd , can you tell how or which way you were betray'd ? dr. oats . my lord , i will give this honourable house what light i can in it , but i desire then to be excused from my oath , for i can't speak it of my own knowledge . sir john trevor . then the next witness we desire may be called , is mr. bernard dennis . mr. serj. maynard . this witness we call now is to confirm what dr. oats hath said , that he was at validolid , and other places in spain : he will be short . lord high steward . call you oats again ? sir franc. winn , no , my lord , we call dennis to confirm what dr. oats hath said . he hath given your lordship an account that he was in spain , we now produce one that saw him when he was there , and so confirms the evidence given by him . ( then mr. dennis was sworn . ) mr. treby . mr. dennis , do you give their lordships an account of your discoursing with dr. oats in spain , or any where else abroad , and where . l. h. steward . stay a little , do you know mr. oats ? mr. dennis . yes , my lord. l. h. steward . how long have you known him ? mr. dennis . i knew him in the year ( . ) l. h. steward . where ? mr. dennis . at validolid . l. h. steward . did you see him there , was he a student there ? mr. dennis . yes , my lord. lord high stew. was he known by the name of oats ? mr. dennis . yes , my lord , he was . sir franc. winn. my lord , we desire he may tell his knowledge of mr. oats , what conversation he had with him in spain . mr. dennis . my lords , i was in spain in the city of victoria , and leaving the city of victoria in the month of june , i took my course to madrid , and passing through the city of validolid , going into the convent of the dominicans , there came an irishman , a priest of ireland , out of the city to seo me , and there he told me , there was a student of the jesuits , by name mr. oats , an englishman , and i understanding this , went into the colledge of the jesuits to see mr. oats , and there had conversation with mr. oats , and in the conversation i had with him there he told me that he was a vicar in kent , and that he was chaplain to a great nobleman in england , by name howard , and that he went out of england by the consent of the jesuits in england , being converted by them to the roman catholick faith , and that his going into spain was to fit himself for the society of the jesuits , and understanding my resolution was to go to madrid , he did desire me to carry a letter to the archbishop of tune , one james lench an irishman , who lived at madrid ; and further , he lent me four pieces of eight to defray my journey to madrid , and desired me to pay the money to the procurator of the jesuits at madrid , and in carrying this letter to the archbishop , when i came there i got a dominican fryer of ireland , by name humphry delphin , to go with me and see the archbishop at his lodging , and going in , i delivered him the letter in the presence of the dominican , and he perused it in my presence , and in the presence of a priest that waited upon him , and finishing the contents of the letter , as i suppose , with a smiling countenance he turned about , and said , sirs , the contents of this letter is , that mr. oats is desirous to receive the order of priesthood from me , or at my hands , and if it be so , it will be much in our way , and this man will be a fit man for our purpose ; for said he further , dr , oliver plunket , primate of ireland , is resolved this year , or with the next convenience , to bring in a french power into ireland , and thereby to support the roman catholicks in england and ireland , and if it please god , i my self , without any delay , will go into ireland to assist that pious work. all this discourse between us and the archbishop , and between oats and me , was in july ( . ) and there i did speak and converse with mr. oats . all this i can testifie for truth on the behalf of mr. oats , who was then a student in the colledge of validolid , and had no other name nor title . mr. foley . i desire himself may tell your lordships what religion he is of . lord high steward . what religion are you of ? mr. dennis . i am a dominican fryer , my lord. lord high steward . are you ? mr. dennis . my lords i am . lord high steward . at this time ? mr. dennis . yes , my lords . mr. serj. maynard . he hath a pardon , my lords . mr. treby . this hath been controverted , my lords , whether mr. oats ever was in spain , we desire to make it out plain to the world , for the confirmation of his evidence . therefore we ask him again , do you know the person of mr. oats ? mr. dennis . yes , i do . mr. treby . is this person that gave evidence last before you , the same person you saw at validolid ? mr. dennis . yes , it is . mr. sacheverel . my lords , we desire to ask of him , why he had the four pieces of eight of mr. oats . lord high steward . why had you that money of oats ? mr. dennis . for to defray my journey to madrid . lord high stew. was that all you had ? mr. dennis . yes , my lords , mr. sacheverel . we pray he may be asked how he came to be so needy . mr. dennis . my lords , i was not altogether needy , but it is very certain , religious persons , especially of my order , cannot carry any money about them but what is requisite for their journey , and that which may be removed from place to place . sir john trevor . i desire to ask him , did he see any more money that dr. oats had . mr. dennis . i did see dr. oats in his chamber in the colledge at validolid , when he delivered me the four pieces of eight , to draw out a drawer of a table in his chamber , and out of the drawer he pulled a bag of money , which was a very considerable sum of money ▪ and i am certain he did not want money there then . mr. treby . my lords , i think we have done with him , if my lord please to ask him any question he may . lord stafford . but only one question , for i never saw the man in my life . i desire he may be asked , whether he be still of the romish religion . sir john trevor . my lords , we have not yet done with him , the question we would ask him , is this , whether he hath heard of any money that was gathered in ireland for the support of this plot ? lord high stew. the question asked of you , have you heard of any money gathered in ireland for the support of this plot ? mr. dennis . i have both heard and seen of it . lord high steward . when and where ? mr. dennis . my lords , in the year ( . ) i entred into the order of the dominicans in ireland , and in the same year there arrived at dublin a franciscan fryer , brother to the late earl of carlingford , and arriving there he made several collectors for the levying a competent sum of money out of every convent and religious house . my lords , the collectors were by name john reynolds alias landy , and john berne , and arriving at the county of sligoe in the month of may. lord high stew. what year ? mr. dennis . ( . ) and when the collectors came to the convent of our fryers in sligoe , all the fryers gathered together into a room , and these collectors coming in did read their commission given them from one james taaffe , as they said , and i was there personally present , though a novice , and upon reading their commissions , they said forty shillings was to be paid by the prior , and the fryers of that convent , and the provincial of the order of the dominicans questioned the power of the said reynolds and berne , and so did the prior ; and i asked why the money was levyed ? they gave answer , that that levy and several other levyes was to encourage the french king , in whose kingdom were several bishops of ireland , clergymen , and others , whose business it was to provoke the king to bring an army to invade ireland , when ever time should serve . lord high stew. have you done with him now ? mr. treby . yes . lord high stew. will your lordship ask him any questions ? lord stafford . my question is only whether he profess himself of the church of rome , or a protestant ? mr. dennis . i am a roman catholick still , my lord. l. high steward . are you ? mr. dennis . i am , my lords . lord stafford . then i have no more to say . sir john trevor . then we call mr. jenison . ( who was sworn . ) mr. treby . mr. jenison , you have been among the papists , and you have had great confidence among them ; pray declare what you know of their designs for the destruction of the protestant religion , or the means of doing it , whether by the murder of the king , or what other means , tell your whole knowledge . mr. jenison . my lords , in the beginning of the year ( . ) i have heard mr. ireland , and mr , thomas jenison , both jesuits , speak of a design they had to gain a toleration of conscience for their party in england ; and the way then designed to get it was , by procuring a great sum of money from their party , and by bribing the then parliament . i have heard them likewise discourse of securing the duke of york's succession , and that ( they told me ) was to be done , by procuring of commissions to be granted to those of their party to be ready to rise upon the death of the king. i likewise have heard them discourse of the necessity and usefulness to their party of the alteration of the government established , and that their religion could never flourish till that was done , and this kingdom altered according to the french model . in the month of june ( ) i was at mr. ireland's chamber , and there happening a discourse , that the roman catholick religion was like to come into england , mr. ireland did then say , there was but one that stood in the way , and that it was an easie thing to poyson the king , and that sir george wakeman might easily and opportunely do it . i asked mr. ireland , whether sir george wakeman was the kings physician ? his answer was , no , but he was the queens , and so might have an opportunity to do it . in the month of august the same year , the day that i came from windsor , i went to mr. ireland's chamber , and i found he was newly come from staffordshire , and was drawing off his boots on the frame of a table : he asked me , whence i was come ? i told him , from windsor : he inquired of me about the diversions of the court , i told him , i understood his majesty did take delight in hawking and fishing , but chiefly in fishing ; and that he went accompanied only with two or three , early in the morning . then mr. ireland replyed , he were easily taken off , or removed : to which i answered , god forbid , being surprized at that time ; o said he , i say not that it is lawful . then there happened some interruption to our discourse about staffordshire ; then we fell into a discourse of their religion that he said was suddenly to come into england , and he asked me , if i would be one of those that would go to windsor to assist to take off the king : i told him no ; then he told me , he would remit the l. i owed him , if i would go to windsor to be one of those that were to take off the king. my lords , i told him , i would have no hand in any such matter , and that i would not for twenty times l. have any hand in the death of the king ; said he , would you do nothing for the bringing in of our religion ? i told him , i thought it would never come in by blood : i told him further , god forgive me , if the king were taken off , so , well and good , but i would have nothing to do with it . he left not the discourse there , but asked me , if i knew any irishmen that were stout and couragious : i told him , yes , i did , and named captain levallian , mr. karney , mr. broghall and mr. wilson , all gentlemen of my acquaintance about grays-inn . when i named these he asked me if i would go along with them to windsor , to assist them in taking off the king , i told him i did not think any man of estate would ingage in such a matter , that i was heir to an estate , my brother being a priest , and that captain levallian was heir to a very good estate , and therefore i did believe he would not do such a thing , unless the pique which he had to the king or religion might move him to it . my lords , be approved of these persons , and said , he knew the first two of them , levallian and karney ; and he set down , as i remember , the other two names in writing . he told me he was going to the club , to mr. coleman , and mr. levallian , and mr. karney at that time , and then asked me for the money , the twenty pounds that i owed him . he told me he wanted fourscoure pounds , and he desired me that i would return it as soon as i came into the countrey . now my lords , the same day that i received this twenty pound of ireland , i went with mr. thomas jenison the jesuit , to harcourts chamber to give the fathers thanks for the loan of the money , and there mr. jenison falling into discourse on that common topick of their religion coming into england , he did then use that expression which dr. oats hath in his narrative . if c. r. would not be r. c. he should not be long c. r. and he did interpret it thus in latine . si carolus rex non esset rex catholicus non foret din carolus rex . and he did add , my lords , upon the discourse , that if the king were excommunicated or deposed he was not longer king , and it was no sin , or no great sin to take him off , and if it were discovered who did it , two or three might perhaps suffer , but denying the fact the matter soon would be blown over . my lords , about two months after the mustering the forces upon hounslowe-heath , mr. thomas jenison did tell me he had a matter of great consequence to impart to me , that there was a design on foot so laid as that it could not well be discovered , and that the greatest papists , the greatest catholicks in england were in the design , that the queen and the duke were in it , and that several lords , by name my lord bellasis , my lord powis , my lord arundel of wardour and others , i believe my lord stafford was named , but i cannot be positive in that . at that time my lords , i did wish i had had a commission in the new raised levies that were mustered on hounslowe-heath , he told me he would procure me a commission from the duke of york , and that there was a new army to be raised to bring in the catholick religion , but he did say he would tell me more particulars after my receiving the sacrament of secresie , and i did understand by him that that commission was not to be sent till the taking off the king was effected ; but being i was surp●ised at it , he would not tell me the whole matter , but he desired me to come and receive the sacrament at sir philip tyrwhytts in blomesbury , and then he would acquaint me with the whole affair . my lords , being in berkshire about the month of december ( ) at madam halls in shinefield parish , one mr. cuffil a jesuit came into our company . it was about the tryal of coleman , and mr. cuffil did then say , that he thought mr. coleman was infatuated upon the discovery of the pl●t , to give notice to mr. harcourt , mr. ireland , and mr. fenwick , and the other jesuits to burn or secure their papers , and yet not to secure his own . my sister hall was present at this discourse , and mr. cuffil did then further say , that bellarmine did draw a sentence out of the scripture , to favour the popes authority of excommunicating , depriving , and deposing temporal princes , and the saying was this , quòd papa habeat eandem potestatem super reges , quam jehoiada habuit super athaliam . and that there were other corroborating testimonies among the fathers for it . mr. treby . my lords , we desire to ask him whether ever he heard of mr. oats being in the plot , or being thought trust-worthy among them . mr. jenison . yes , my lords , i did . l. h. stew. when did you hear it , and of whom . mr. jenison . of my brother thomas jenison the jesuit . l. h. stew. when did he tell you so ? mr. jenison . about the latter end of july ( . ) when there was a discourse of a design , and that the greatest papists were in it ; he said mr. oats a parson newly come over to them was in that design , i answered , i did wonder that he would trust a reconciled enemy ; he answered , that being once reconciled , they were more zealous and trusty : i submitted to his opinion , and instanced in dr. godwyn and dr. bayley that were protestants ▪ and afterwards came over to the church of rome . mr. treby . we have done with him my lord. l. h. stew. will your lordship ask him any questions my lord stafford ? l. staff. no my lord. sir fr. win. my lords , i would only observe the time when he says , his brother told him of the design , that it was about the time of the mustering of the forces upon hounslowe-heath , and that he was then told mr. oats was in the plot ; i only observe it now for the end of the case in point of time . l. h. stew. he says it was in july . mr. jenison . it was two months after the mustering of the forces , about the latter end of july . l. h. stew. before the discovery . mr. jenison . yes . l. h. stew. did you know oats at that time ? mr. jenison . no , my lords . i was not acquainted with him . sir john trevor . did you not see him then ? mr. jenison . yes , i saw him at irelands chamber . sir john trevor . when was that ? mr. jenison . the latter end of april , or the beginning of may. l. h. stew. you say you did not know him in july ; how then can you say you saw him before ? mr. jenison . i did not know him , i only saw him come into irelands chamber and whisper for sometime , two or three minutes , and then they told me , that that was mr. oats , a parson newly come over to them , a brisk jolly man , and worthy my acquaintance . l. h. stew. is this the same man you saw there ? mr. jenison . my lords , i can't remember his face , for he was gone out when i was told of him . l. h. stew. why , you know mr. oats now ? mr. jenison . yes , i do . l. h. steward . do you know him to be the same man that you saw then ? mr. jenison . i can't tell that . sir john trevor . my lords , he says mr. oats only came in for three or four minutes and his back was towards him , and his brother told him when he was gone , who it was . mr. jenison . i only knew his name from my brother . mr. treby . and i presume your lordships will observe this was at the very time of the jesuits consult . sir john trevor . we desire this gentleman may tell your lordships who his brother is , and what profession he is of . mr. jenison . my brother was a jesuit brought up at st. omers . l. h. steward . your brother is dead , and died in newgate ? mr. jenison . yes , he did so . l. h. steward . pray recollect your self again , when was it that you saw the man they called oats at the jesuits chamber ? mr. jenison . my lords , it was in the year ( ) the latter end of april or the beginning of may. and i will tell you why i apprehend it to be that time ; my brother being a priest lived with sir phillip tyrwhitt in lincolnshire , and in that year in lent he came to town with my lady and that family , and he and i used to dine together at the fish ordinary at pedleys . and about three weeks or a month after that time when he came to town i was at mr. irelands chamber , and there was a gentleman whom they told me was oats . l. h. stew ▪ this you say was the latter end of april , or beginning of may ( ) for the time is material , upon your oath you say it ? mr. jenison . yes , my lords , i do . l. h. stew. you say it was at ireland's chamber ? mr. jenison . yes , my lords . sir fr. win. my lords , will you give us leave to ask him one short question , because some of the gentlemen doubt of it , we would ask it again , what his brother was , whether he was a jesuit or no ? mr. jenison . i have heard him own it my lords . l. h. stew. whom do you call next , gentlemen ? mr. treby . if it please your lordships we shall in the next place produce our evidences that are matters of record and we desire your lordships advice and direction how we are to minister the same , whether your lordships will have them all read , 〈…〉 of them , and let them be left with your lordships . l. 〈…〉 〈…〉 records are they ? mr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are the records of the attainder of coleman , ireland , and the other conspirators . l. h. stew. the fact is so notorious that they were attainted and executed , that the reading of a word will serve the turn . sir john trevor . then we desire they may be produced here , and the copies proved upon oath , and then we shall leave them upon your lordships table . and my lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble , there may be delivered in the convictions of reading , lane , knox , and others . then mr. clare was sworn , and delivered in the copies of the records , l. h. stew. what record is that ? mr. clare . it is the record of the attainder of coleman for high treason . l. h. stew. did you examine it ? mr. clare . i did examine it . l. h. stew. is it a true copy ? mr. clare . to the best of my understanding it is . here is likewise a copy of the record of the conviction of ireland , pickering , and grove for high treason . l. h. stew. is there judgment of attainder entred upon record . mr. clare . yes my lords , there is judgement entred . here is a copy of the indictment , conviction , and attainder of whitebread , fenwick , harcourt , gavan , and turner for high treason . here is a copy of the record of attainder of richard langhorn for high treason . here is a copy of the attainder of green , berry , and hill for the murder of sir edmond-bury godfrey , here is a copy of the conviction of mr. nathaniel reading , for endeavouring to suborn mr. bedlow , to retract his evidence against some of the lords in the tower , and sir henry tichbourn , l. h. stew. what is the judgment there ? mr. clare . the judgment is entred upon it , and 't is to pay l. fine , and to be put in , and upon the pillory in the palace ▪ yard westminster for an hour , with a paper upon his head written in great letters , for endeavouring subornation of perjury . here is a copy of the record of the conviction of tasbrough and price , for endeavouring to suborn mr. dugdale , and judgment entred upon it . and here is a copy of the record of conviction of knox and lane , for conspiring to asperse dr. oats and mr. bedlow . here is the record of the conviction of john giles for barbarously attempting to assassinate john arnold esq one of his majesties justices of the peace ; and the judgment entred thereupon is , to stand three times on the pillory , with a paper on his hat declaring his offence , to pay ● l. to the king , to lie in execution till the same be paid , and find sureties for his good behaviour during life . l. h. stew. deliver them all in . and if my lords have occasion to doubt of any thing , being left in the court they will be there ready ●o be used . ( all which were then delivered in . ) mr. treby . my lords , we humbly desire that the record of coleman may be read , because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest , and your lordships may dispose of the others as you please . l. h. stew. read the record of coleman . then the clerk read ( in latin ) the record of the attainder of edward coleman , formerly executed for high treason , by him committed in this horrid popish plot , which in english is as followeth , viz. of the term of saint michael in the thirtieth year of the reign of king charles the second , &c. middlesex . at another time , ( to wit ) on vvednesday next after eight days of st. martin , this same term , before our lord the king at vvestminster , by the oath of twelve jurors , honest and lawful men of the county aforesaid , sworn and charged to enquire for our said lord the king and the body of the county aforesaid , it stands presented , that edward coleman late of the parish of saint margaret vvestminster in the county of middlesex gentleman , as a false traitor against the most illustrious , most serene and most excellent prince , our lord charles the second , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. and his natural lord , not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , but by the instigation of the devil moved and seduced , the cordial love , and the true , due and natural obedience which true and faithful subjects of our said lord the king towards him our said lord the king ought and of right are bound to bear , utterly withdrawing , and devising , and with his whole strength intending the peace and common tranquility of this kingdom of england to disturb , and the true worship of god within this kingdom of england practised , and by law established , to overthrow , and sedition and rebellion within this realm of england to move , stir up , and procure , and the cordial love , and true and due obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our said lord the king towards him our said lord the king should bear , and of right are bound to bear , utterly to withdraw , blot out , and extinguish , and our said lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , the th . day of september in the th . year of the reign of our lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. at the parish of st. margaret vvestminster aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , subtilly and traiterously proposed , compassed , imagined and intended sedition and rebellion within this realm of england to move , raise up and procure , and a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said lord the king to procure and cause ; and our said lord the king from his kingly state , title , power and government of his realm of england utterly to deprive , depose , deject and disinherit , and him our said lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , and the government of the same realm and the sincere religion of god in this kingdom , rightly and by the laws of this realm established for his will and pleasure to change and alter , and the state of this whole kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained , wholly to subvert and destroy ; and war against our said lord the king within this realm of england to levy : and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid ; the same edward coleman afterwards , to wit , the said twenty ninth day of september , in the abovesaid twenty seventh year of the reign of our said lord the king , at the parish of saint margaret vvestminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , subtilly and traiterously devised , composed and writ two letters to be sent to one monsieur le chese then servant and confessor of lewis the french king , to desire , procure and obtain to the said edward coleman and other false traitors against our said soveragin lord the king from the said french king , his aid , assistance and adherence , to alter the true religion in this kingdom then and still established , to the superstition of the church of rome , and to subvert the government of this kingdom of england : and afterwards , to wit , the said twenty ninth day of september , in the abovesaid twenty seventh year of the reign of our said lord now king of england , &c. at the aforesaid parish of saint margaret vvestminster in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , and traiterously devised , composed and writ two other letters to be sent to one monsieur le chese then servant and confessor of the said french king , to the intent , that he the said monsieur le chese should intreat , procure , and obtain to the said edward coleman , and other false traitors , against our said soveraign lord the king , from the aforesaid french king , his aid , assistance and adherence to alter the true religion in this kingdom of england then and still established , to the superstition of the church of rome , and to subvert the government of this kingdom of england ; and that the aforesaid edward coloman , in further prosecution of his treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid afterwards , to wit , the same twenty ninth day of september , in the abovesaid twenty seventh year of the reign of our said now lord the king , the aforesaid several letters from the said parish of saint margaret westminster in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , subtilly , and traiterously did send into parts beyond the seas , there to be delivered to the said monsieur le chese ; and that the aforesaid edward coleman , afterwards , to wit , the first day of december in the twenty seventh year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second now king of england , &c. at the aforesaid parish of saint margaret westminster in the county of middlesex aforesaid , one letter from the aforesaid mounsie●r l● ches● , ( in answer to one of the said letters ( so by him the said edward coleman writ , and to the said monsieur l● che●e to be sent ) first mentioned ) falsly , subtilly , and traiterously received , and that letter , so in answer received , the day and year last abovesaid , at the aforesaid parish of saint margaret westminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , subtilly and traiterously did inspect and read over , and that the aforesaid edward coleman , the letter aforesaid so by him in answer received in his custody and possession the day and year last aforesaid , at the aforesaid parish of st. margaret westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , subtilly and traiterously detained , concealed and kept ; by which said letter the said monsieur le chese the day and year last abovesaid , at the aforesaid parish of st. margaret westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , signified and promised to the said edward coleman , to obtain for him the said edward coleman and other false traitors against our said lord the king , from the said french king , his aid , assistance and adherence ; and that the aforesaid edward coleman , afterwards , to wit , the tenth day of december in the abovesaid twenty seventh year of the reign of our said soveraign lord charles the second now king of england , &c. at the parish of st. margaret vvestminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , subtilly and traiterously did relate and declare his traiterous designs and purposes aforesaid , to one monsieur ro●vigni , ( then envoy extraordinary from the french king , to our said most serene king , at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , residing ) to move and excite him the said envoy extraordinary with him the said edward coleman , in his treasons aforesaid to partake : and the sooner to fulfil and compleat those his wicked treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid , he the said edward coleman , afterward ▪ to wit , december . in the abovesaid th . year of the reign of our said lord charles the second now king of england , &c. at the aforesaid parish of s. margaret westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , advisedly , maliciously subtilly and traiterously did devise , compose , and write three other letters to be sent to one sir william throgmorton knt. then a subject of our now lord the king , of this kingdom of england , and residing in france , in parts beyond the seas , to sollicite him the aforesaid monsieur le chese to procure & obtain of the said french king his aid , assistance and adherence aforesaid . and those letters last mentioned , afterwards , to wit , the day and year last abovesaid from the aforesaid parish of st. margaret westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , to the same sir william throgmorton in france aforesaid , falsly and traiterously did send , and cause to be delivered , against the duty of his allegiance , and against the peace of our said now lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in such case made and provided . wherefore 〈◊〉 was commanded the sheriff of the county aforesaid , that he should not omit &c but that he should take him , if &c. to answer &c and now , to wit , on saturday next after eight days of st. martin this same term , before our lord the king at westminster , came the aforesaid edw. coleman under the custody of will. richardson gent ▪ keeper of the gaol of our said lord the king of newgate , by vertue of the king 's writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciend &c. ( into whose custody before then for the cause aforesaid he was committed ) to the bar here brought in his proper person , who is committed to the marshal , &c. and presently of the premisses to him above imposed , being asked , how he will thereof be acquitted ? saith , that he is in no wise thereof guilty , and thereof for good and evil doth put himself upon the country . therefore let a jury thereupon come before our lord the king at westminster on wednesday next after fifteen days of st. martin ; and who &c. to recognize &c. because &c. the same day is given to the said edward coleman &c. under the custody of the said keeper of the gaol of our said lord the king of newgate aforesaid in the mean time committed to be safely kept until &c. at which wednesday next after fifteen days of st martin , before our lord the king at westminster , came the aforesaid edward coleman under custody of the aforesaid keeper of the kings gaol of newgate aforesaid , by vertue of a writ of our lord the king of habeas corpus ad subjiciend ▪ &c. to the bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the aforesaid keeper of the kings gaol of newgate aforesaid ; and the jurors of the jury aforesaid , by the sheriff of the county aforesaid , hereunto impannelled , being called , came , who being chosen , tryed and sworn to speak the truth upon the premisses , say upon their oaths , that the aforesaid edward coleman is guilty of the high treason aforesaid , in the indictment aforesaid specified , in manner and form as by the said indictment above against him his supposed ; and that the aforesaid edward coleman at the time of perpetration of the high treason aforesaid , or at any time afterwards had no goods , chattels , lands or tenements to the knowledge of the jurors aforesaid ; and the aforesaid edward coleman being asked if he hath any thing , or knows what to say for himself , why the court here ought not to proceed to judgment and execution of him upon the verdict aforesaid , saith nothing , but as before he had said : and hereupon instantly the attorney general of our said lord the king , according to due form of law , demandeth against him the said edward , judgment and execution to be had upon the verdict aforesaid , for our lord the king. whereupon all and singular the premisses being viewed , and by the court here understood : it is considered , that the said edward coleman be led by the said keeper of the gaol of newgate aforesaid unto newgate aforesaid , & from thence directly be drawn to the gallows of tyburn , and upon those gallows there be hanged , and be cut down alive to the earth , and his entrals be taken out of hi● belly and be burned ( he still living : ) and that the head of him be cut off ▪ and that the body of him be divided into four parts ; and that those head and quarters be put where our lord the king will assign them , &c. l. staff. i do not hear one word he says , my lords . l. h. stew. my lord , this does not concern your lordship any further , than as to the generality of the plot. sir will. jones . my lords , we have now done with our proofs for the first general head that we opened , which was to make it out , that there was a plot in general . we now come to give our particular evidence against this very lord , and before we do begin , we think fit to acquaint your lordships , that our evidence will take up some time , if your lordships will have the patience to hear it now , we will give it ; but if your lordships will not sit so long till we can finish it , it may be some inconvenience to us to break off in the middle . and therefore we humbly offer it to your lordships consideration , whether you will hear it now or no. l. h. stew. if it cannot be all given and heard now , it were better all should be given to morrow . sir will. jones . if your lordships please then , we will reserve it till to morrow . l. staff. my lords , i would only have your directions , whether i shall answer this general first , or stay till all be said against me ? that which i have to say to this general , will be very short . l. h. stew. my lord , you are to make all your answer entire , and that is best for you . l. staff. i am very well contented , that i may be the better prepared for it . l. h. stew. is it your lordships pleasure , that we should adjourn into the parliament chamber ? lords . ay , ay. l. h. stew. then this house is adjourned into the parliament chember . and the lords went away in the same order they came . the commons returned to their house , and mr. speaker resumed the chair , and then the house adjourned to eight of the clock the next morning . the second day . wednesday december . . a message was sent from the lords by sir timothy baldwyn and sir samuel clark. mr speaker , the lords have sent us to acquaint this house , that they intend to proceed to the tryal of william viscount stafford , at ten of the clock this morning in westminster-hall . mr. speaker left the chair , and the commons came into westminster hall in the new erected court. and the managers appointed by the commons went into the room prepared for them in that court , to proceed to the particular evidence against william viscount stafford . about ten of the clock in the morning the lords came into the said court in their former order , and proclamation being made of silence , and for the lieutenant of the tower to bring his prisoner to the bar , they proceeded . l. h. stew. my lords expect you should go on with your evidence , and proceed in the tryal of this noble lord. l. stafford . my lords , if your lordships please , i humbly desire that my counsel may be near me for the arguing of what is fit to them to speak to , as to points of law , for points of fact i do not desire it . l. h. stew. my lord , you have an order for your counsel to attend , and they must and ought to attend . mr. serjeant maynard . the counsel must not suggest any thing to him while the evidence is giving , they are not to be heard as to matter of fact. l. h. stew. it is not intended to make use of counsel , as to matter of fact , but they may stand by . mr. serjeant maynard . my lords , they may stand within hearing , but not within prompting . l. staff. i assure you , if i had all the counsel in the world , i would not make use of them for any matter of fact. mr. treby . my lords , will you please to order them to stand at a convenient distance , that they may not prompt the prisoner . sir will. jones . my lords , i hope your lordships will consider , that a man in a capital cause ought not to have counsel to matter of fact. 't is true , he may advise with his counsel , i deny it not ; but for him in the face of the court to communicate with his counsel , and by them be told what he shall say , as to matters of fact , is that which ( with submission ) is not to be allowed . if your lordships order they shall be within hearing , i do not oppose it , but then i desire they may stand at that distance that there may be no means of intercouse , unless points in law do arise . l. h. stew. you were best make that exception when there is cause for it , in the mean time go on with your evidence . sir franc. winn. we did perceive his counsel came up towards the bar , and very near him , and therefore we thought it our duty to speak before any inconvenience happened . this lord being accused of high treason , the allowing of counsel is not a matter of discretion . if matters of law arise , all our books say , that counsel ought to be allowed . but we pray that there may be no counsel to advise him in matter of fact , nor till your lordships find some question of law to arise upon the evidence . l. h. stew. when there is cause take the exception , but they do not as yet misbehave themselves . mr. treby . my lords , we presume your lordships did , from the strength and clearness of yesterdays evidence , receive full satisfaction concerning the general plot and conspiracy of the popish party . it being an evidence apparently invincible ; not out of the mouths of two or three witnesses only , but of twice that number ( or more ) credible persons . upon which we doubt not but your lordships who hear , and strangers and unborn posterity when they shall hear , will justifie this prosecution of the commons , and will allow that this impeachment is the proper voice of the nation crying out , as when the knife is at the throat . by the evidence already given , i say , it is manife●t that there was a general grand design to destroy our religion , our king , and his protestant subjects . and 't is even impossible that this design , so big , could be conducted without the concurrence of such persons as this noble lord at the bar. it could not be carried on by less and lower men . and it were a wonder , that a person so servently affected and addicted ( as this lord is ) to that party , should not be in , at so general a design of the party . but this indeed is but presumptive evidence which will induce a moral persuasion . we shall now produce such positive evidence as will make a judicial certainty ; and will abundantly suffice to convince your lordships and convict this lord. the particulars you will hear out of the mouths of the witnesses , whom we shall call : they will testifie what share this lord had in ( almost ) all the parts and articles in our charge ; contriving and contracting for the murder of the king , levying arms , &c. and first we call mr. dugdale . l. stafford . my lords , i conceive i have good ground to except against this man for a witness ; for my own particular , i know myself as clear ●nd free as any one here , but i will not except against him now , but reserve it against the time when i come to make my defence , and therefore admit him to be sworn , provided , my lords , that he look me full in the face . l. h. stew. my lord stafford , what is your exception against this man that he may not be a witness ? l. stafford . i do admit him to be sworn , i say nothing now against him . mr. treby . he is sworn already . l. h. stew. you swore him to give evidence as to the general plot ; you did not swear him as to the particulars against my lord stafford . sir john trevor . we are content he shall be sworn again , we pray he may be sworn . sir will. jones . 't is true , my lords , we did divide the evidence into two parts , but his oath was not divided ; if your lordships please you may swear them all over again , if it may be any satisfaction , but i think it was never seen before . then mr. dugdale was sworn . l. h. stew. there is mr. dugdale , come sir , what say you ? l. staff. really he is so changed i do not know him . mr. dugd , my lord , i have witnesses to prove that you know me , l. staff. i beg your lordships that he may look me in the face and give his evidence , as the law is . sir john trevor . my lords , if this noble lord the prisoner at the bar will have this witness to look him continually in the face , the court will not hear half his evidence ; we desire he may address himself as the law is to your lordships and the judges . l. staff. i desire the letter of the law , which says , my accuser shall come face to face . mr. dugd. my lords , i am willing to do as your lordships shall order . l. h. steward . my lord , you do see the witness , that is enough for face to face , and you make no legal exception against him , why he should not be heard . l. staff. very well my lord , i submit . mr. dugd. my lords , i have for some years past whilst i was a servant with my lord aston , been acquainted and frequently had discourses with my lord stafford , before we came to discourse any thing concerning the plot on foot . lately in ( . ) my lord coming down into the countrey , it was either in august or september , the latter end of august or the beginning of september — l. staff. i beseech your lordships he may name the times . l. h. stew. my lord , if your lordship please do not interrupt the witnesses , but wherein he is short , do you ask him the question when it comes to your turn , i will bring it to as much certainty as i can . mr. dugd. there was a meeting at tixal , where there were several present — l. h. steward . when ? mr. dugdale . it was in september or the latter end of august . l. h. stew. what year ? mr. dugdale . ( . ) my lords , i had then by mr. evers means , admittance to hear , because of my incouragement , what the discourse was at that time . it was to debate and determine upon the former resolutions both beyond sea and at london , before both to take away the life of the king , and to introduce their religion , of which i was then one . my lord stafford was there present , and did with the rest consent to it . afterwards my lord stafford being at one mr. abnets of stafford one sunday morning in september , came to my lord aston's house to mass : i met with my lord stafford at some distance from the gate , and my lord speaking to me when he alighted off from his horse , told me , it was a very sad thing they could not say their prayers , but in an hidden manner , but e're long we should have our religion established ; which was much to my joy at that time . after that time my lord stafford was sometimes at stafford , and sometimes at tixal , i will not b● positive as to a day , but i think it was about the middle of september : my lord stafford sent for me to his lodging chamber , as he had several times before sent for me : and said , he had had great commendations of me from mr. evers that i was faithful and trusty . lord stafford . my lords , i desire i may have pen , ink and paper allowed me . l. h. stew. ay , god forbid you should be denied that ; give my lord pen , ink and paper : i hope your lordship hath one to assist you that takes notes for you , if you have not , you have lost a great deal of time already . l. staff. there was one all day yesterday my lords , i desire he may speak his evidence over again . l. h. stew. let him begin his evidence again , for my lord had not pen , ink nor paper , which he ought to have , to help his memory . mr. dugdale . i may miss as to the words , but the matter of fact i shall repeat ; my lords i have been frequently acquainted whilst i was a servant at my lord aston's with my lord stafford , coming to my lords house in the coun●rey , and my lord being several times there i came to that intimacy by mr. evers means , that my lord would frequently discourse with me . about the latter end of august or some day in september , my lord stafford , my lord aston and several other gentlemen , were in a room in my lord aston's house , and by the means of mr. evers i was admitted to hear for my incouragement ; and there i heard them in that debate at that time fully determine a resolution upon all the debates that had been beyond sea and at london before , that it was the best way they could resolve on to take away the life of the king , as the speediest means to introduce their own religion . after sometime my lord being at stafford at mr. abnets — l. h. steward . was my lord stafford at that meeting , where they debated to kill the king ? mr. dugdale . my lord was there . l. h. steward . was he consenting to that resolution ? mr. dugdale . yes , i heard every one give their particular full assent . ( at which there was a great hum : ) l. h. steward . what is the meaning of this ? for the honour and dignity of publick justice , let us not carry it as if we were in a theatre . mr. dugdale . my lords , some times in september , my lord stafford being at mr. abnets house in stafford , came once upon a sunday morning to hear mass : i meeting him at the outward gate of my lord aston's house when he alighted off his horse , after some discourse he turned to me , and told me , it was a sad thing we could not say our prayers but in an hidden manner , but e're long if things took effect we should have the romish religion established . and i at that time did seem to be , and really was as glad as any person could be . after some time , i think it was about the . or . of september my lord stafford sent for me into his lodging room , i think it was by his page , or him that waited upon him in his chamber : and he told me i must come to my lord , and i immediately went to his lordship , he was just then arising and dressing , he sent his men out , and told me , he had had a good accompt from mr. evers and other genlemen that i would be faithful and true to their intentions about the introducing their religion . he told me , he was likewise concerned himself , and that in a very high degree : and for taking away the life of the king , he offered me at that time for my charges and encouragement l. and that i should go in october after to london with him ( my lord stafford , ) and that i should be with him sometimes at london , and sometimes at an house of my lord aston's about twenty five miles from london , and that i should be under the care of him in london and mr. ireland , and in the countrey , of one mr. parsons that knew of the design . i did then shew as much resolution to be faithful to my lord as i could , and that i would be true to what my lord then engaged me . i after went to mr. evers and communicated to him what my lord stafford said , and was something in admiration at my lord 's offering me such a sum of money , for i doubted of my lords ability to make good payment . he told me , that i need not sear it , for mr. harcourt and mr. ireland had money enough in their hands to def●ay that and other charges , and i should not want money for the carrying it on . my lords , i remember that at another time there was a meeting , wherein there was a debate about my going up , and other businesses ; my lord stafford was present , and there were several there besides , i did not kn●w them all then ; but in the first place they told me i should be made equal with one captain adderly that is since dead , and that i should have a reward in london : i understood that the duke of york , my lord arundel and my lord bellasis and others were to give me it ; and speaking of the rewards to those that were ingaged , they said ▪ there would be land enough from the protestants to satisfie all that acted in the design . another time my lord stafford discoursing in a dining room in my lord aston's house , did express his great zeal , and the reason why he was such an enemy against the king : he said , both he and my lord aston had been great sufferers for the king , and for his father , and that my lord in particular his grandfather or his father had spent l. in the kings service , and had no recompence , that he had always shewed himself loyal to the king , but whenever there came any place of preferment to be disposed of , it was rather given to such as had been traytors and rebels to the old king , and likewise to the king himself than to any that had been had loyal . he said , this was his chief motive , if there were not religion in the case , which was of an higher nature , or to that purpose . l. h. stew. when was this last discourse ? mr. dugdale . in september ( . ) as near as i remember , for we had several discourses . l. h. stew. this was not the time you were at my lords chamber . mr. dugdale . no it was in my lord aston's dining room . l. h. stew. no , nor when he sent for you to offer you the l. mr. dugdale . no , not at that time , it was another time . l. h. stew. what month and year ? mr. dugdale . september ( . ) my lord. mr. foley . i desire he may give your lordships an account what assurance he had of pardon , if he did succeed . mr. dugdale . i was told i need not fear , and particularly my lord stafford told me , i should have a free pardon for it , for the king had been excommunicated , and was likewise a traytor , and a rebel , and an enemy to jesus christ . l. h. steward . but how could you be pardoned ? from whom were you to have that pardon ? mr. dugdale . i was to be pardoned by the pope . l. h. stew. that was for your sins ? mr. dugdale . yes , i expected no other if i had gone on . mr. treby . were you promised nothing else but a pardon from the pope ? mr. dugdale . yes , i was to be sainted . sir will. jones . will his lordship please to ask him any questions , we ask him no more . mr. foley . yes , i desire another question may be asked him , that he would give an account of the letters my lord stafford writ to evers about the design . l. h. stew. what say you to that question ? mr. dugdale . there came a letter to evers from my lord stafford , i knew it to be my lords hand , some might counterfeit his hand , but as near as a man can swear to the hand of another in a paper he did not see written , that was my lords-hand ; that things went all well beyond sea , and so he did hope they did here for the carrying on of the design , it was to this purpose expresly . mr. treby . we have done , my lords , with him . lord high steward . my lord stafford , will you ask him any questions ? l. staff. my lords , i have divers questions to ask him , very many , but i humbly crave your lordships directions , if i ask him any questions now , whether i may not ask him some afterwards . l. h. steward . my lord , you may ask questions of the witnesses as often as you please , and when ever you find it useful to you , god forbid there should be any time to foreclose a man from asking a question that may save his life . l. staff. i pray he may be asked how long before this time he knew of the plot. l. h. steward . how long have you known this plot ? mr. dugd. in general , for the introducing of the popish religion , and the incouragement to it by the duke of yorks being successor , i have known it or years by the means of mr. evers . l. staff. my lords , i understand him , he says , he knew of the plot or years ago , if i be not mistaken , he says so . mr. dugd. my lords , if your lordships please to give me leave to explain my self further , it was not for taking away the life of the king , but for making ready against the king died with men and arms. l. staff. my lords , he says , in the latter end of august , or beginning of september , i told him such and suc● things , i desire he may name the day , that may be many days , and i may prove i was not there , and i can prove for all august , and a good while in september , therefore i desire he may name the day . l. h. steward . my lord stafford , i come thus near on purpose to serve your lordship , that you may not strain your voice too much , but i am not so happy as to apprehend what it is you say . l. staff. my lords , i say , he speaks of the latter end of august , or beginning of september , which is too great a latitude , and i conceive more than ought to be given in such a matter of importance as this is to me ; i desire he may name the day , for he may name days perhaps that i was not there . l. h. steward . look you , mr. dugdale , my lord does desire , if you can , you would be a little more particular than about the latter end of august , or the beginning of september , if you can remember the day tell it us . mr. dugd. i cannot remember particular days , it being a thing i then took no account of , only this i do remember by a remarkable circumstance , that one time was either the . or . of september ( . ) l. h. stew. that was the time of your coming into his chamber , and his offering you five hundred pound ? mr. dugd. it was so , but other meetings i dare not charge to a day . lord stafford . how then can i make my defence ? mr. dugdale . i will stand to that time . lord stafford . how , my lords , can i be able to give an account of it ? i shall prove to your lordships , that he once said it was in august , now he says it was in august or september . i beseech you , that he may positively stand to the month , if not to the day . mr. dugdale . i speak as neer as i can . lord stafford . but he says the . or . particularly . mr. dugdale . thereabouts i am sure it was . lord stafford . look you , he will be positive in nothing . mr. dugdale . i will stand to that time . lord stafford . if he swears false in one thing , i hope upon proof of that your lordships will believe he may be false in all . i pray he may be asked what hour of the day it was , whether it was morning or afternoon . l. h. steward . he is positive only to the . or . of september , the time when he says you called for him into your chamber , and offered him five hundred pound to kill the king ; would your lordship ask him whether it were in the forenoon or afternoon ? lord stafford . yes , my lord , i would . lord high steward . was it in the forenoon , or in the afternoon ? mr. dugdale . it was in the forenoon ; for i did formerly speak of that , he was dressing himself when i came in . l. h. steward . then that is answered positively . lord stafford . my lords , he says one sunday morning i came to my lord astons to mass , i desire you would please to ask him , whether ever he saw mr. evers and me in his life alone together ? l. h. steward . have you seen my lord stafford and mr. evers , ever together alone ? mr. dugdale . several times i have seen them walking together in the garden , and in the walks at my lord astons ; and i have been with them my self when there hath been only them two besides . l. h. stew. that is answered fully ; will your lordship ask him any thing else ? lord stafford . he says he was to go to london in october with me , i stand not upon that till i come to make my answer ; but i take it , he says , the . or . of september , when i offered him five hundred pound , in my chamber , to kill the king , that he went presently to evers to speak with him about it . lord high stew. as doubting the payment of the money , and he told him , that harcourt and ireland would pay it . lord stafford . was it the same day , pray ask him , my lords ? mr. dugdale . i do not say it was the same day , but it was the next time i could come to speak with him . lord high steward . he tells you it was as soon as he could speak with him . lord stafford . he said before it was presently after he went from me . i desire your lordships would take notice how he contradicts himself in every circumstance . lord high stew. what say you , did you go presently to mr. evers after my lord stafford had made the offer ? or was it the same day or the next day ? mr dugdale . to the best of my remembrance it was the same day ; i can't say positively . lord stafford . my lords , i have no other questions with dugdale . sir john trevor , then my lords , we will call another witness . lord high steward . have you no more to say to dugdale , my lord ? lord stafford . not at present till i come to make my defence . lord high stew. god forbid , but you should have leave to say all that you can for your self . mr. treby . then set up dr. oats . do your lordships require that he should be sworn again ? lord stafford . i desire nothing , nor propose it , if he will declare upon his oath that he took yesterday . lord high stew. heark you dr. oats , this is but a continuation of the proceedings yesterday , you are upon the same oath now that you were then , and what you say this morning will be taken to be upon the same oath . mr. treby . dr. oats , upon the oath you have taken yesterday — lord high stew. pray swear him again , ( which was done . ) mr. treby . dr. oats . pray speak your knowledge of my lord stafford's being ing aged in the design . dr. oats . i desire i may be left to my own method . l. h. steward . go on in your own method . dr. oats . my lords , in the year ( . ) there were divers attempts upon the life of the king as the jesuits told me , and in the year ( . ) there was an attempt upon the account of the kings withdrawing the indulgence in ( . ) and ( . ) in the year . whilst i was in spain i met with several letters signed stafford , wherein my lord stafford did assure the jesuits in spain , that were of the irish nation , how zealous he should appear in the promoting of the catholick design . my lords , in the year ( . ) i went to st. omers , and i came there in december . my lords , in that year i being ordered to look over the papers and put them in order ; i found several letters signed stafford , wherein my lord stafford did intimate to the fathers that whereas there had been some difference betwixt him and the society for several years , the business was reconciled by one seignior con , who came over into england in the year ( . ) to reconcile the great difference that was betwixt the jesuits and the secular clergy , and between the benedictine monks and the jesuits . my lords , my lord stafford upon the perswasion of this seignior con , as he does intimate in his letter , does assure the jesuits of his fidelity and his zeal . my lords , in the year ( . ) i found letters from my lord stafford wherein he does blame mr. coleman's openness , and his being too publick in the great affair , and that mr. coleman was pleased to communicate several great secrets to men , of whose fidelity his lordship was not secure . my lords , in the year ( . ) in the month of june , my lord stafford , the prisoner at the bar , came to mr. fenwick , and there received a commission from him to pay an army that was to be raised for the promoting of the catholick interest , and he did assure mr. fenwick that he was going down into staffordshire , and there he did not question but he should have a good account how the catholicks stood affected , and he did not question but to give a good account how affairs stood in staffordshire , shropshire , and lancashire , and this commission to my lord stafford was , as neer as i can remember , to be pay-master-general of the army . my lords , among other discourses with my lord at the bar , he was discoursing about my lord duke of norfolk , and my lord arundel his son , and after several other passages , he ( fenwick ) was asking of him how my lord arundel came to have a jesuit in his house . my lord stafford did say , that my lord of peterborough , his father in law , was instrumental in it on purpose to oblige the duke of york ; for my lord arundel , as i have been told , kept father symonds in his house , who to my knowledge was a jesuit . but ▪ my lords , he came to mr. fenwicks ( my lord stafford did ) by the name of mr. howard of effingham . l. h. steward . were you at fenwicks when my lord stafford came to his chamber ? dr. oats . yes , my lords . l. h. steward . look upon my lord stafford , is that the same person ? dr. oats . it is the same gentleman that came there by the name of howard of effingham . l. h. steward . and he took the commission ? dr. oats . yes , he did so . l. h. steward . and he promised to effect it ? dr. oats . yes , and he said that he was then going down into the countrey , and he did not doubt but at his return grove should do the business . l. h. steward . who said so , fenwick ? dr. oats . no , my lord stafford . and , says fenwick to my lord stafford again , sir , ●tis fit that some should be here present least you fail of your expectation , or to that purpose . 't is two years since , and i cannot remember the words , but my lord stafford did say , he was of necessity to go into the country at that time . and there he did write a letter to st. omers , in which he did excuse himself about a young man that was to be sent to the jesuits colledge , whom he had taken care of another way . and he desired their excuse , but he would be as faithful to them as any body for all that . and the same hand that wrote that letter , by all the comparing i could make in my thoughts , wrote all the other letters that i saw at st. omers , and in spain . my lords , i saw my lord stafford at dr. perrotts , i think verily it was in june or july ( . ) it was before the rising of the parliament , that sat that summer , and my lord stafford was discoursing of a son he was to send over to lisbon , and he went over by the name of sir john stafford . and after this discourse was over they fell into a discourse of the affairs in hand , and my lord was mighty glad there was so good a correspondence and concord ; though my lords , it was not very great for the jesuits have an irreconcileable quarrel with the rest of the clergy . but my lord did hope that their fair correspondence might tend highly to the advancing the catholick cause . but my lords , i have one thing more to speak as to the discourse at fenwicks chamber , speaking of the king , he said , he hath deceived us a great while , and we can bear no longer . lord high stew. who said so ? dr. oats . my lord stafford , the gentleman at the bar. lord high stew. when was that ? at dr. perrotts ? dr. oats . no , i speak of a passage at fenwick's , which i had forgot . my lords , this is all i can remember at present . m. foley . my lords , i desire he may give an account what letters my lord stafford sent to fenwick and ireland , to pay money ? dr. oats . there was some money returned , but it was no great sum , and it was about private business ; mr. morgan was to receive it ; i chanced to have the money in my own keeping ; mr. fenwick gave it me to pay to mr. morgan , and the letter in which the sum was mentioned did give them an account ( for it was out of staffordshire ) that he found things stand in a very good state there ; but i being not within , mr. morgan called on mr. fenwick for the money , which i returned to him when he had paid it . lord stafford . my lords , i do in the first place desire to know where mr. fenwick lived . lord high stew. where did mr. fenwick live when you saw my lord at his chamber , and the commission delivered ? dr. oats . his lordship , i suppose , knows very well where he lived , he lived in drury-lane . lord stafford . i will submit to any thing , if i ever saw the man or heard of him till the discovery of the plot. dr. oats . he came to him by the name of thompson . lord high stew. your lordship does not observe , your lordship says that you never knew any fenwick , but your lordship knew one thompson , and that thompson was fenwick . lord stafford . i did know one thompson , but that thompson i knew , was an ●nglish merchant in brussels , and not a jesuit . dr. oats . i can't say what my lord knows , that he knew fenwick to be a jesuit , but he knew one thompson that was fenwick the jesuit . lord stafford . i never heard of the name till this plot. dr. oats . but , if your lordships please , i will give you a reason why i believe he knew him to be a jesuit , because the society was very often in their mouths in their discourses , which gives me a ground to believe he knew him to be what he was ; but my lord , he took his commission from him . lord stafford . i desire he may be asked — l. h. steward . good my lord raise your voice , for i am come half way to hear you . lord stafford . pray my lords give me leave to ask him whether dr. oats hath not said several times since i was first imprisoned , that he never saw me in his life . i think i was imprisoned the . of october ( . ) dr. oats . i never said any such thing . lord stafford . i will willingly dye if ever i saw this doctor in my life . dr. oats . i excuse my lord for that , for i was in another habit , and i went by another name , and your lordships do remember i came in another habit to make the first discovery . lord stafford . my lord , i never saw his face , nor know him , nor fenwick , or thompson , otherwise than one thompson , a merchant at brussels . dr. oats . but , my lords , i have one thing more to say of my lord stafford ; my lord stafford went into france , i can't say the year , but i believe it is within the term of or . but he went over to france , and it did appear by letters from him , that seignior con was made choice of to heal the difference between the regulars and the seculars , and seignior con did come over in the year ( . ) and there did make a kind of a peace among them , which lasted whilst con stayed here , and con did bring over messages , to which my lord stafford ( if he tells any truth in his own letter ) did return answers . lord stafford . for the present all i say to it is this , i never writ any one letter this years , nor had any correspondence with any jesuit . lord high steward . i beseech your lordship make me capable of serving your lordship , by letting me hear what you say . lord stafford . my lord , i have a great cold , and can speak no louder , i desire to ask this witness no more questions at present ; but i say i never writ any letters to any priest this years . mr foley . then , my lords , if my lord hath done , we will call another witness , and that is mr. edward turbervile . ( who was sworn . ) l. h. steward . look upon the prisoner . do you know my lord stafford . mr. turbervile . yes , my lord. l. h. steward . raise your voice , and speak deliberately . mr. treby . give an account of your knowledge , and use your own method . mr. turbervile . my lords , in the year . i was perswaded by my lady powis , and one morgan that was confessor to the family , to go to doway , in order to take upon me the fryars habit. when i came there , instead of religion , i found nothing but hypocrisie and villainy among them , and quickly grew weary of staying there , and with much difficulty i escaped thence to go for england ; when i came into england , i did not think that my friends would look unkindly upon me , because i refused to live in that way that they proposed to me to live in . i used all the means i could to have them reconciled , and made applications to them , that since i could not bear with the life they would have had me lived in , they would contrive some way for me , being a younger brother , that i might live in the world ; but they were so averse and inveterate against me , that they told me , instead of doing any thing for me , they would do me all the mischief and prejudice they could ; and having lived all my time among them , i thought the world would receive a character of me from them who were my relations , as they would please to represent it ; so having no hopes in england i took a resolution to go into france , where i had a brother that was a benedictine monk , and i hoped that he being in good repute amongst them , might be able to do me some service there . when i came to paris , my brother used all the endeavours imaginable to get me to be of that order ; but i having so ill a conceit and opinion of the order that i was in before , and thinking all the rest were the same , i was unwilling at all to enter into it . and after i had staid there a while i resolved to come over into england . my brother used all the means he could for my accommodation , and recommended me to this noble lord the prisoner at the bar , who lodged then at a corner house in a street which , as i remember , bears the name of la rue de beaufort , where i was several times with him in order to come over with him in the yaught for england . after i had been there for a fortnight with this lord , he understanding my condition , by my brother , and by the other fathers of that convent , and imagining i was a fit instrument to be employed on such an occasion , propos'd to me a way whereby , as he said , i might not only retrieve my reputation with my relations , but also make my self a very happy man ; and after having exacted from me all the obligations of secresie which i could give him , he at length told me in direct terms , it was to take away the life of the king of england , who was an heretick , and consequently a rebel against god almighty . i looked upon it as an extraordinary attempt , and desired time to consider of it before i would undertake it . and i gave him this answer , i would give him my resolution at diep , where we were to go on board for england . and when i came to take my leave of this noble lord at the bar , he was sitting upon a bench , and he was troubled with the gout in his foot at that time . and he told me he had some business to go to versailles , and that he should not be in six or seven days at diep , where i was to wait for him . after a while i received a letter at diep from his lordship , wherein he writ word , that he had altered his resolution , and would go by the way of calice , and that i should hasten to wait on his lordship at london . i have one thing more to observe to your lordships , when i got passage from diep , in a fisher-boat for england , i never came neer my lord stafford , because being not willing to undertake his proposal , i thought my self not safe , even from my own relations , and therefore i made my applications to the duke of monmouth , and his grace was pleased by letter to recommend me into the french service , and by that means i avoided his lordships further importunity . lord high steward . you say my lord did propose to you the killing of the king ; did he plainly make the proposal in direct terms to kill the king ? mr. turbervile . yes , he did , my lord. lord high steward . what did he offer you to do it ? mr. turbervile . nothing , for i would not accept of it . i told him it was a matter of great concernment , and i ought to consider of it , and i took time to think of it , and would give him my answer at diep , which he came not to ; and so there was an end of it . lord high steward . what ingagements of secresie had you given my lord before he opened himself so plainly to you ? mr. turbervile . i gave my lord my word and my promise that i would not discover it to any person directly nor indirectly ; my lord had nothing of an oath from me . l. h. steward . will you ask him any more questions , gentlemen ? sir will. jones . no , my lords . l. h. steward . will your lordship ask him any questions , my lord stafford ? lord stafford . my lord , i never saw the man before in my life . i will ask him one question since he hath been pleased to swear against me . mr. turbervile . my lords , i had no reason but the truth to do it , for i never received any injury from his lordship in my life . l. stafford . it seems i had ill luck to choose this man for an attempt to kill the king , who was such a coward he ran away from his colours . and was to have been shot to death . mr. turbervile . ask the duke of monmouth what character he received of me . l. stafford . he says in the year , ( . ) he went from london to doway , and staid some time there , and then came back to england . i beseech your lordships to ask him what time he went back to paris . l. h. steward . what time was it that you went back to paris ? mr. turbervile . truly , my lord , i cannot be punctual to a fortnight , but i believe it was the beginning of june . l. h. steward . what year ? mr. turbervile . ( . ) lord stafford . my lords , i would know who recommended him to me to go over with me into england . lord high steward . who recommended you to my lord stafford to go into england ? mr. turbervile . my lords , it was father sherborn who was then prior of the benedictine monks in paris , and father nelson sub-prior of those monks , and my brother who is a monk in the same convent . lord high steward . he says , that there were three persons that recommended him to your lordship . lord stafford . i never saw them in my life . mr. turbervile . your lordship that says i was a coward , and run away from my colours , will say any thing . lord stafford . i not only say it , but will prove it by two witnesses . mr. turbervile . do it if you can . lord stafford . he says in the beginning of june ( . ) he went into france . i desire to know of him when it was he spoke to me . mr. turbervile . in november . lord stafford . he says in november . mr. turbervile . yes , my lord , about the beginning of november . l. stafford . i beseech your lordship , where was it he spoke to me ? l. h. steward . turbervile , where was it you spoke to my lord ? mr. turbervile . in paris . l. stafford . whereabouts in paris ? mr. turbervile . it was the corner-house of the street , which street faces luxenburgh house , the prince of conde lodges on the right hand in that street , i take it to be so , and you lodged at the corner-house , i think the name of the street was la rue de beaufort . l. stafford . which if the prince of conde did — i will say no more . mr. turbervile . i cannot be upon my oath in such cases , but i think he does , i take it so . l. stafford . he says , he was with me a fortnight , what does he mean ? mr. turbervile . i came to my lord several times in the space of a fortnight . l. stafford . i desire to know who brought him to me . mr. turbervile . father sherborn , father nelson , and my brother father anthony turbervile ; and sometimes i came alone . l. h. steward . he says , those three fathers recommended him to your lordship , and he came himself several times . mr. turbervile . yes , my lords , it is true . l. stafford . i beseech your lordships , did he come directly to my chamber , or where ? mr. turbervile . sometimes to my lords chamber , and at other times i met him in a lower room . l. stafford . it concerns me much , my lords , and though they be foolish questions , yet i hope your lordships will pardon me if i ask them . where was this discourse about killing the king ? l. h. steward . was this discourse in the chamber , or in the lower room ? mr. turbervile . in the lower room . l. stafford . he says , i think , that he hath been in my chamber . l. high stew. have you been in my lords chamber as well as in the lower room ? mr. turbervile . yes , my lords , i have . l. stafford . what kind of room is it ? mr. turbervile . i cannot remember that . l. stafford . no , i dare sware you can't . mr. turbervile . i can't tell the particulars ; what stools and chairs were in the room . l. stafford . my lords , i have no more to say to him at present . l. h. stew. mr. turbervile , how long have you been in england ? mr. turbervile . i cannot answer punctually ; i have been in england near four years . l. h. stew. how came it to pass that you never discovered this sooner ? mr. turbervile . i had no faith to believe that i should be safe if i did it , but my brains might be knocked out ; and that kept me off from doing that service which i might be better able to do if i did deser it . l. h. stew. how came you to discover it now ? mr. turbervile . the kings proclamation , and some friends that have perswaded me i may do it with safety ; who will give your lordships an account of it . l. stafford . i desire he may attend when i make my defence . mr. turbervile . yes , i shall . but i am sorry that his lordship hath so ill a memory as to what passed between us . i shall be very unwilling to do his lordship , or any body else , any injury , but i must tell the truth . sir will. jones . my lords , we shall call no more witnesses , unless my lord , the prisoner , give us an occasion . if he shall make any objections to any of our witnesses , i hope we shall have liberty to call witnesses to support them ; but we give over at present , and expect his lordships answer . l. stafford . may it please your lorships , i beseech your lordships , before i say any thing , that i may know if they have any more witnesses to examine . lord high steward . they say they will call no more evidence unless your lordships answer do give them occasion to fortify their witnesses you except against . lord stafford . my lords , it is now about two years that i have had the misfortune to be accused of this detestable treason . i have been several times in those two years a close prisoner , that my wife and children were denyed to come neer me ; and hardly a servant permitted to ask how i did , but at the door of my prison . my lords , this was a great and an heavy affliction to me ; and , my lords , it was so great an affliction to me , that truly i did not know how to bear it . 't is true , i had that comfort , that i did hope i should soon come to my tryal , and before your lordships make my innocency appear . in order to which , i did all i could , having heard this hall was provided for it ; and i did expect in a very few days to clear my self before your lordships and all the world. when i had settled my mind , and did not foresee any greater affliction that could befall me , i had on the sudden by some of my friends a sad message sent me , that the house of commons had impeached me of high treason . my lords , i looked upon the house of commons then ( as i do now ) as the great representative body of the commons of england ; and i confess , my lords , to be accused by them was a load , especially being added to what lay before upon me , more especially to my ●eak body , and weaker mind , that i was so afflicted with it , and have so continued , that i am scarce able to bear up under it . for i look upon the house of commons as the great and worthy patriots of this kingdom : i ever held them so , and i hold them so still . my lords , these things being such great afflictions to me , and some other accidents , which i shall not trouble your lordships with the telling you of , have so much disordered my sense and reason ( which before was little ) that i scarce know how to clear my self to your ●ordships , as i ought to do ; or which way to go about the doing of it : therefore i do with all humility beg your lordships pardon if i say any thing that may give an offence , or urge that which may not be to the purpose : all which i desire you would be pleased to attribute to the true cause , my want of understanding , not of innocency , or a desire to make it appear . my lords , these gentlemen the managers of the house of commons , who are great and able men , some i am sure ▪ if not all of them , very well read , and have understanding in the law , have set forth to your lordships treason in an horrid shape ; but i confe●s , my lords , if they had made it never so much worse , it cannot be so horrid as i have often fancied it my self : for my lords , i do , and did ever hold treason to be the greatest sin in the world , and i cannot use words enough to express it , and therefore i hope you will give me leave to clear my self of it , and i shall give you one notion of it which i heard at your lordships bar some years ago , where you were pleased to here several people of several perswasions give you some reason why liberty of conscience should be allowed them . and i remember one of them , an anabapti●t , i think , did tell you , that they held treason to be the sin of witchcraft , and so do ● . and next to treason i hold murder to be the worst sin . but the murder of the king , i looked upon to be so , above all others , that it is not to be expressed by words . my lords , i have heard very much of a thing that was named by these gentlemen of the house of commons , and that very properly too , to wit , of the gun-powder treason . my lords , i was not born then , but some years after i heard very much discourse of it , and very various reports ; and i made a particular inquiry , perhaps more than any one person did else ▪ both of my father who was a●ive then , and my uncle and others ; and i am satisfied , and do clearly believe , by the evidence i have received , that that thing called the gun-powder treason , was a wicked and horrid design ( among the rest ) of some of the jesuits , and i think the malice of the jesuits , or the wit of man , cannot offer an excuse for it , it was so execrable a thing . besides , my lords , i was acquainted with one of them that was concerned in it , who had his pardon , and lived many years after , i discoursed with him about it , and he confessed it , and said , he was sorry for it then ; and i here declare to your lordships , that i never heard any one of the chur●h of rome speak a good word of it : it was so horrid a thing that it cannot be expressed nor excused . and god almighty shewed his judgments upon them for their wickedness ; for hardly any of the persons or their posterity are left that were conc●rned in it ; and even a very great family too , that had collaterally something to do in it , is in the male line extinct totally ; and i do think god almighty always shews his judgments upon such vile actions . and i have been told , all those persons that were engaged in this wicked act , were all heartily sorry for it , and repented of it before they died , without which i am sure there is no salvation . and therefore i think it was not the interest of religion , but a private interest put them upon it . my lords , as to the doctrine of king-killing , and absolving persons from their allegiance , i cannot say the church of rome does not hold it , i never heard it did hold it , it may be it does , it may be not , i say not one thing or other , but my lords , there was an english colledge of priests at rhemes , that translated the bible , and printed it with authority according to their translation , and in their annotations upon the fourteenth chapter of the epistle to the romans , they do declare their dislike and detestation of that opinion . they say all subjects ought to obey their kings as the 〈◊〉 mitive christians did the heathen princes of the empire ; and the learned doctors of the colledge of sorbonne , did upon an occasion administred to them about that opinion , declare the mistakes that were in it , and owned it to be a damnable principle . my lords , i have an authentical copy of that decree of the sorbonists , whether it be here or no , i can't tell — yes , here it is , which does declare that , a damnable position ; and there is lately come out a book , written by a priest of the church of rome , tryed for his life for being in the plot , but acquitted of that , in which he says , that that opinion of killing kings is damnable and herettical , and declared so by the council of trent . my lords , this gives me occasion to believe that the church of rome holds it not . i do not say that it does not , but some particular persons do abhor it which are great in that church , and which weighs far with me ; but that which further most of all confirms me in my ill opinion of it , is the words of our saviour , when not only he commands us to give unto caesar the things that are caesars , but asserts our obedience to our governours in many other passages of the holy scripture ; and what i find there , the whole world is not able to alter my opinion of . i do assure your lordships in the presence of almighty god , that i do extreamly admire when i hear of any thing like it , and i did read with great horror what i found the other day in the gazette , of some imprudent people in scotland , and of their wicked principles and practices . my lords , i do in the presence of almighty god , who knows and sees all things , and of his angels , which are continually about us , and of your lordships who are my peers and judges , solemnly profess and declare , that i hate and detest any such opinion , as i do damnation to my self . and i cannot be more desirous of salvation to my self , than i am cordial in hating this opinion . my lords , i know no person upon earth , nor all the persons in the world put together , nor all the power they have , can in the least absolve me of my allegigiance . and i do acknowledge the king is my soveraign , and i ought to obey him as far as the law of the land obliges any subject of his to obey him ; whether i have taken the oath of allegiance , i appeal to your lordships to be my witnesses ; and if i did not take it a thousand times for my allegiance to the king , if required , i think i should deserve a thousand deaths , and all the torments in the world for refusing it . my lords , these gentlemen here did begin their charge , serjeant maynard , and sir francis winnington , with telling your lordships there was an horrid design to murder the king , to alter the government , and introduce the popish religon . this they say was ingaged in by the roman catholicks , that all the church of rome were the contrivers of it ; for they tell your lordships , the whole body hath been ingaged in it , and they have given you many proofs by witnesses examined the first day , of a general plot ; what credit you will give to them i leave to your lordships in the end of the case , but still they said it was the body of the roman catholicks in england , or the papists , or what they call them , that were the plotters in this design . but i beseech your lordships , how am i concerned in it ? for i must say to your lordships , they have not offered one proof that i am of that religion . so that though any of you should have seen me at the exercises of that religion , or otherwise know it of your selves , yet if there be no proof judicially before you , you are not to take notice of it . i have heard if a man be accused of a crime , and be to be tryed , and no evidence come in , if every man of the jury were sure that the fact was done , yet they must go upon the evidence produced to them , and not upon their own knowledge . so then no evidence being produced before your lordships , about my being a papist , you are not to take me for such an one . but , my lords , if i were of that church , and that were never so well proved too , i hope i have an advantage in it , that i have kept my self from being poysoned with so wicked a principle , or ingaged with the rest in so ill a thing . my lords , i am here accused of having endeavoured to kill the king. i find by the law , upon reading sir edward coke , since my imprisonment , that all accusations of treason ought to be accompanied with circumstances antecedent , concomitant and subsequent ; but i conceive , my lords , there is no tittle of any such thing proved against me . the whole compass of my life from my infancy hath been clear otherwise . in the beginning of the late unhappy times , the late king of happy and glorious memory , did me the honour to make me a peer ; and thinking that my presence might rather prejudice him than serve him , my wife and i settled at antwerp when the war begun , where i might have lived , though obscurely , yet safely ; but i was not satisfied in my conscience to see my king in so much disorder , and i not endeavour to serve him what i could , to free him from his troubles . and i did come into england , and served his majesty faithfully and loyally , as long as he lived . and some of your lordships here , know , whether i did not wait upon the now king in his exile , from which he was happily restored , which shews i had no ill intention then . my lords , i hope this i have said does shew , that my life hath given no countenance to this accusation , but clear contrary to what these ( i hope i may call them so , and doubt not to prove them so ) perjured villains say against me . my lords , after i had this misfortune to be thus accused , about a month or six weeks after , your lordships were pleased to send two members of this honourable body to me . i do not see them at present here , to examine me about the plot , ( they were my lord of bridgwater , and my lord of essex ) if they be here , i appeal to them what i did say . these two , after they had examined me told me , they did believe , and could almost assure me , that if i would confess my fault , and let them know the particulars of it , your lordships would intercede with the king for my pardon ; but i then , as i ought , asserted my own innocency . not long after , the king out of his grace and goodness to me , sent six of the council to the tower to offer me , that though i was never so guilty , yet if i would confess , i should have my pardon . i did then consider with my self , i could not imagine what ground there was to believe your lordships could have evidence of what there was not , to bring me in guilty ; and thereupon i was so far from being able to make a discovery , that i could not invent any thing that might save my life if i would . my lords , i was seven days in the countrey after i heard of the plot ; if i had known my self guilty , i should surely have run away . as i came to london , when i was at lichfield there met me two of my lords ; they told me , and so did a gentleman of the house of commons , how much there was in the plot , which if i had had an hand in it would certainly make me fly for it . i have ever heard when a man is accused or suspected of a crime , flight is a great sign of guilt , and that it is often asked of the jury , though there be no certain positive evidence of the fact , whether a man fled or no ? as that is a sign of guilt , so remaining is a sign of innocency . if then after notice , i come to town , and suffer my self to be taken , if after imprisonment and accusation i refuse my pardon , and yet had been guilty , i ought to die for my folly as well as my crime . my lords , 't is a great offence to commit treason , and a great addition to continue obstinate , when upon acknowledgment a man can save his life ; nay , my lords , if i should have refused these offers , and yet known my self guilty , i had at the same time been guilty of one of the greatest sins in the world , as being the cause of my own death . and as i hold , next to treason , murder the greatest sin , so i hold of all murders self-murder to be the greatest : nay , i do not think any man living can pardon that sin of murder . and i do profess to your lordships in the presence of almighty god , that if i could immediately , by the death of this impudent fellow dugdale , who hath done me so much wrong , make my self the greatest man in the world , that is or ever was ; i profess before god i would not ; i cannot say my charity is so great , but that i should be glad to see him suffer those punishments the law can inflict upon him for his crimes , but his death i would not have . blood is so great a crime , and i know every man is careful of giving his voice in the case of blood , i should be very cautious my self ; and if i were a judge i would rather save twenty guilty , than condemn one innocent . i bless god i have not the least desire of the death of any man , and would not for all the world have the innocent blood of all the word lye upon me . i beg your lordships pardon that i have troubled you thus long : i shall now as well as i can , apply my self to my particular defence . i do , my lords before i can go on to it , desire i may have such depositions as have been taken against me ; and the liberty to look on your journal book , when i have occasion . i do particularly desire the depositions of oats , upon which i was committed , by my lord chief justice ; the two depositions of stephen dugdale , taken at stafford before two justices of the peace , mr. lane and mr. vernon ; i desire the depositions taken before , i think it was mr. warcup and sir william poultney , or some other two justices ▪ which was made by turbervile , and then i shall compare their testimonies together : and i hope shall give you a clear account that they are perjured persons . how without these to go on to my just defence i cannot well tell . lord high steward . what do you say to it , gentlemen , you hear what my lord prays ? sir franc. winnington . the witnesse are here , and have been heard viva voce . as we cannot use any of the depositions of which he speaks , so no more can they be used by him . lord high steward . if i understand my lord aright , this is the thing he desires ▪ says he , you have brought witnesses against me viva voce , they have been examined here , and they have been examined elsewhere , and their depositions are upon record , i desire to confront what they have said here , with what they have said contrary in other places . mr. serj. maynard . if there be any thing expressed by my lord , wherein they have contradicted themselves , and produce that deposition , he may do that ; but to desire to have all the depositions that have been made by our witnesses is a strange request . when there is occasion to use them upon any particular point , he may produce them if he can . lord high steward . can you object why my lord should not have copies of any thing that is upon the journal , and depositions that are sworn before a magistrate which may be of use to him ? sir william jones . my lords , we do not object against it ; but , my lords , i think it is out of time of to desire it . what was sworn , and is entred in your lordships journal , was sworn above two years since . my lord , or any man else might repair to them , they are matters of record , and for ought we know were never denyed to any , especially if they desired it in the house ; but after two years time , and after three weeks time given to prepare for this tryal , when my lord could not but know what witnesses would be examined before your lordships , for him to come now and desire such and such depositions may be produced , which if by law he might be allowed to do , he might have done before , is to no other purpose , under favour , but to gain time , and to cause our evidence to be forgotten . and therefore we must humbly pray it may not be admitted : my lords , i think it is an unusual thing , my lords the judges are neer your lordships , i suppose they will inform your lordships . if a man be tryed at the assizes , for him to desire a coppy of the informations remaining in court , by which he may except against the witnesses , is what the court does not use to grant : but if your lordships proceedings vary from the common proceedings of other courts , then i resort to what i said before . whether your lordships will think this a proper time when he might have had it in the parliament that was first dissolved , and then in the parliament that was last dissolved . now to desire those copies at this time , is to put off the cause , for that which perhaps he cannot be furnished with in a day or two . sir fr. vvin. i would add but one word , if your lordships please to give me leave . my lords , you have the learned judges near you , who will inform you whether ever , when a man was accused of a capital offence , and the evidence against him had been fully heard , by the court and by himself , he was admitted to require from the prosecutors , the copies of examinations formerly taken before other persons ? does my lord intend to have time to peruse those examinations , and to have the copies of them , that he may consult in private with his counsel to find out exceptions , and with his witnesses to make them good ? my lords ▪ i must say that in my short experience ( and i have attended a considerable time upon the greatest court for trial of offenders ) i never heard such a thing asked by a prisoner , either at the bar of the kings bench , or at the assizes . i speak with all the tenderness imaginable , because we are in a matter of blood , and god-forbid but the lord at the bar should have true and equal justice done him . but if i take my lord right , this seems but an artifice to delay the trial , of which it is our duty to be very cautious . indeed i have seen the judges , upon trial of a criminal , call for the depositions , or informations from the clerk , or the justice of the peace who took them , and caused them to be read ; but for a prisoner to call for examinations at the bar from the prosecutors , et ex debita justitia , to demand them , is a thing , which as it never has been , so i think will not be admitted at this time , especially when we are now almost at the end of the cause , and with all modesty and submission to your lordships , i look upon it as a very strange and unreasonable demand . l. h. steward . my lord stafford , what is the reason your lordship had not , all this while , copies of the journal , which is that you now ask ? l. stafford . i shall not undertake that i am able to give your lordships a reason for it , because i think wherein i have been mistaken as to point of time ; your lordships will not tie me up to that . but this gentleman that spoke last is not acquainted with me , and does not know me ; for i have no desire to go back , or to put off this trial : but if it cannot be done to day , i am as guilty to morrow as i am to day ; and i desire no more than what he says hath been done in the like cases . i do desire , my lord , the informations and depositions of dugdale , oates , and turbervile , may be produced and read , and i will make observations upon them in my defence . i desire those affidavits may be brought . l. h. stew. affidavits taken , when , and where ? l. stafford . of dr. oats , that was read in your lordships house , i heard it . l. h. stew. let us understand your lordships demands , that when my lords are withdrawn , i may know what questions to put to them , and acquaint them with your desires : the one is the journal of the lords house , which is always before their lordships , and you might have had copies long since . the next thing you ask is an affidavit of dugdale , if this affidavit is entred into the journal , that supplies your demands , if it be not entred there , where shall we find it ? l. stafford . i do not know . l. h. stew. does your lordship think all this matter must stay till we can find a loose affidavit , that we know not where 't is filed ? l. stafford . i know it was before the council , and i believe my accusers have it ; i desire the gentlemen of the house of commons may produce it . sir john trevor . i have seen none , nor have none . l. stafford . the one was taken the . of december this time two year , and the other the . l. h. stew. my lord , will your lordship give me leave to tell you , you ought to be provided with some particular exception , and not to make your demand in general . if your lordship will say dugdale did swear such and such things , which are contrary to what he now affirms , we know what to make of it ; but to hunt after an affidavit , that we know not where to find , to pick something out of it , that i do not understand . l. stafford , i appeal to my lord of essex , and my lord bridgewater , whether they did not examine me the first time upon one or two affidavits of dugdale . l. h. stew. suppose it be not to be found my lord ? l. stafford . then i must have patience and submit . l. h. stew. can you tell wherein he swore quite blank contrary to what he swears now ? l. stafford . my lord , i conceive it was never denied before , but your lordships may do what you please . l. h. stew. well , my lord , let us go on to the next . the affidavits of dugdale , if they be entred on the journal , may be ready , if not , then● shall acquaint their lordships , and they will direct what is fit in the case . l. stafford . then there is the affidavit of oats before my lord chief justice , upon which i was committed ; the next day , which was friday , it was read in your lordships house . l. h. stew. i believe that is entred upon the journal , and so will be ready to be used . l. staff. i do hope to make it evidently appear thereby that he is forsworn . i desire two affidavits more that were taken before the justices of the peace of middlesex , who examined mr. turbervile twice . l. h. stew. what justice of the peace ? l. staff. mr. warcupp , sir william poultney , and sir thomas stringer . i desire i may not be misunderstood , i do not desire to have them to instruct my counsel , or advise with them upon them , but i cannot make my defence without them . l. h. stew. those are voluntary extrajudicial affidavits , that no body is bound to keep . l. staff. they were spoken of in the votes of the house of commons . l. h. steward . what say you gentlemen to it ? sir fran. winn. my lords , because my lord at the bar is pleased to insinuate , as if we knew where those affidavits are which he seems to desire , and because your lordship was pleased to say that the commons in parliament are the grand-jury of the kingdom , i desire to say one thing ; that certainly it will not be required from us to produce and publish the several facts and circumstances that induced us to impeach him , if it shall be demanded by the prisoner at the bar. l. h. steward . i wish you would answer the question , and not argue upon it , whether those affidavits of turbervile may not be produced ; for 't is my lords exception against your witnesses , that he swears several ways ; and by those affidavits of turbervile , he intends to disprove him in what he hath said to day . sir fr. win. my lords , the house of commons never administer an oath , and therefore it is not to be said to us , but my lord stafford must go to the particular offices where they are to be found . l. h. stew. i do not ask you where my lord should find them , but whether , if they can be found , you can object any thing why they should not be produced and read . mr. serj. maynard . when they are produced we will give an answer . l. stafford . my lords , i am informed this is the substance of the affidavit , that turbervile did swear before two justices of the peace , whether they be of the house of commons , or no , i cann't tell , that he spoke with me at doway , and in paris , in the years ( . ) and ( . ) and now he says ( . ) and . ) i am informed , my lords , and i appeal to the house of commons , they are all persons of honour and worth ( if my information be mistaken i beg their pardon , and yours for 't ) whether he did not mend it after he had sworn it . l. h. stew. are these all you do demand ? l. stafford . yes , my lords . whether this was true or no , i don't know , ● is what i have been told , i appeal to the house of commons ( who are all worthy persons , i do not believe i have an enemy among them ) they know whether i speak true or no. l. h. stew. when will your lordship be ready to make your defence ? l. stafford . as soon as ever i have them , i will not stay a minute , a moment , an instant , i desire not to shew my counsel , nor any one ; for my tryal is a thing that i have long desired . therefore i would not be mistaken , as if i would put off the cause . i am innocent , and shall be so while i live , and hope i shall make it appear so . i beg if this be a matter of law , whether i may have them or not , that my counsel be heard to it . l. h. stew. this is a matter of fact. l. stafford , i insist upon it as things without which i cannot make my defence ; i am innocent , and i suppose not one of the house of commons , nor one of your lordships , will debar me of that by which i may make my innocency appear . lord high steward . you cannot know my lords pleasure till they are withdrawn . sir william jones . before your lordships withdraw , i hope you will please to hear us a few words , which we think may be for the service of this court. my lords , what evidence is before your lordships , 't is in your lordships pleasure what of that you shall please to communicate to my lord stafford ; but for this evidence he speaks of as remaining in our hands , and which he takes upon himself to appeal to us for , admits of another consideration . my lords , if we were conscious of any thing in these affidavits that were for my lords advantage , and knew where they were , we would redily produce them ; but for my self , i must answer , and i think my companions will say so too , that we do not know where these affidavits are , nor of any variation in those affidavits from what is now sworn , but whatever they were , they were taken for the information of the house of commons , who are the prosecutors in this cause , and who are no judges . now if my lord will bring any witness that will say this witness of ours did before a justice of peaee depose so and so , and says the contrary now , there might be then just reasons to look after these affidavits and to have them produced , but upon a bare imagination that there is a variance where in truth there is none , and the truth may otherwise be known ; to desire that these affidavits that never were before you should be produced , whether such a suggestion is to be admitted , i humbly submit it to your lordships consideration . l. stafford . my lords , if these gentlemen that are the managers for the house of commons will aver to your lordships , that there is no variation in them , i will submit to them and be quiet ; if they will say it was not debated in the house , whether he should amend or no. l. h. stew. look you , he puts it upon you so far gentlemen , that if you will take it upon you to aver that there is no variation between those affidavits upon which you grounded your impeachment , and the evidence you have given upon the trial of your impeachment , he will not give you the trouble . l. stafford . i beseech you let me say one word , my lords , i have been thus long a prisoner , i was as far from being proceeded against now , as any of the rest of the lords in the tower , till turbervile came in with his discovery , and i believe i am now called the sooner ( which i am glad of , and i give the gentlemen thanks for it ) upon the affidavit of turbervile , i desire that affidavit ; and though it be true the house of commons give no oath , yet they appointed two members of the house that were justices of the peace of middlesex to take it upon oath , and he desired the next day to amend it ; and i put my self upon them , whether this be not true . l. h. stew. what say you , sir , to it ? sir w. jones . my lord , i cannot answer , because i don't hear . l. stafford . my lord , i say this , i do observe that mr. turbervile ( whose face i never saw in my life , that i know of , till to day , nor never spoke a word to him , and i shall prove that no servant that ever i had see him ) did depose ( for the purpose ) to day , that he was in the years ( . ) and ( . ) in such and such places , and that he did speak with me at doway and paris , and to morrow recollecting his notes , he found he was mistaken in his affidavit that he had made before , and desired to mend it , and brought it to the years ( . ) and ( . ) there was some debate in the house about it , whether they should permit him to mend it ; i appeal to all the gentlemen , whether it were not so . l. h. stew. your labour is to have two affidavits that you do presume will do your business in order to the finding out a variety of time of his being at doway or at paris : that which does press your lordship we know in turbervile's evidence , is , that at paris in the room below of your lodging , you encouraged him to kill the king , and you were to have met him at diep to know his mind , but you came not , and he went away ; if you have it in the affidavit quite contrary to this , you say somewhat . l. staff. my lords , i beseech you , it presses me , and every man in england , not to be run down by a fellow that forswears himself ; for him to swear one thing to day , and another thing to morrow , is perjury . l. h. stew. what say you to it gentlemen ? sir w. jones . what was done in the house of commons , it does not become any of us that are members to disclose : but i have heard , and will admit it , that in the depositions , the witness made before a justice of peace , there was a year put down , which he going home , and upon sight of letters and papers , found it to be mistaken , he comes the next day and desires to alter it , if this be for my lords service ▪ we shall grant it . mr. serj. maynard . 't is on or about too . l. h. stew. what say you my lord now ? l. staff. i do say , my lord , i am informed by what i have heard cursorily ; for i have not seen one of the house of commons before the day of my tryal , that though in his second deposition he named the years ( . ) and ( . ) yet i can prove him perjured as to what he hath sworn here to day . l. h. stew. since 't is insisted upon gentlemen , that there is a variety in the last deposition from what he swore at first , what can you say why he should not have the avail of his exception ? sir will. jones . my lords , whether your lordships will think fit to consider by what ways and means the house of commons informed themselves , in order to impeachments , i submit to you ; and for those things that still remain in the hands of the commons , i suppose you will be pleased to consider how you can send for them to inform you . we would not be mistaken in the matter ; let not any one that hears us think that we are conscious there is the least variation , nay we are confident , if the thing were produced , it would turn to my lords prejudice ; but what is done in this case , may be a president for the future ; and therefore we cannot without resorting to the house , consent to deliver any thing the house took for their information . therefore if your lordships stand upon it , and incline to have it done , we must resort to the house to ask their leave whether we shall do it or no. l. h. stew. i cannot tell what my lords will incline to do ; but i desire when you are gone back , you will consider how far it will make the matter easie to my lord. sir will. jones . my lords , we can give no answer to that till we have attended our house . mr. serj. maynard . i desire your lordships to consider what a piece of cunning he hath put upon both houses , to pass by his villifying our witnesses , which i may say was not comely . but if he makes any question , it must be put to the houses upon supposition to be a question , and so he would bring things only to this issue to put off the cause for to day . he ought to put that which might probably be something of a question . let him instance in particulars , and make out his evidence , not seign things to put off the cause ; for ought i see 't is to no other end , and 't is a jesuitical trick i think . l. stafford . i feign nothing , i have been told this that i speak here , and i desire it may be proved . lord high steward . if you are bound up so that you cannot consent , i can ▪ t help it . mr. serj. maynard . let him put the fact , my lords , and not suppose , and imagine things , and then raife questions . l. h. stew. it is usual in these cases for the gentlemen of the house of commons to stay till the lords are withdrawn , and expect their lordships resolution ; perhaps they may so order it that you need not go back . sir will. jones . i desire before your lordships withdraw , that it may be taken notice of by your lordships , that for the matter of the variation of the year we do admit it . my lord is not pleased to mention any other particular matter of the affidavit , but only says in general that it is contrary to what he says to day ; if my lord would tell us wherein , perhaps we should admit it , or answer it , or take it into further consideration ; but to make so general an allegation , and give your lordships no particular account , we submit whether such a suggestion ought to be regarded . lord high steward . is there any further variation , besides the variation of the year ? l. staff. i cannot say there is my lord , i do not know it ; but i do really believe in my conscience there is , from what i have heard ; but however i insist upon it , and demand your judgment . sir fr. win. my lords , i humbly desire one word as to the objection that hath been made , that he hath prayed your lordships to grant him the sight of such and such papers . the nature of this cause , my lords , we know is such , that there was never the like number of papers known , as to the general plot ; and my lord , that is the prisoner at the bar , may as well demand to morrow such a particular paper , and the next day another , that he hath heard of in the general plot ; and where will the end of this be ? so that if the thing be granted upon the variation of the time that it was immediately rectifyed , and he cannot produce any grounds that may satisfie your lordships why he should have that paper , you may as well suffer him to demand any other paper after , and so never end the cause . l. h. stew. your lordship hath been told , and you shall find it , that you shall have as fair and equal an hearing as is possible , and nothing shall be denied you that is just and reasonable to safe your life , or make your defence . but pray , my lord , for so much as is upon the journal , which you may resort unto , you may easily know what answer my lords will give to that ; but for this other thing , if it be only the variety you alledge of the time and the year , and you do desire it to look for other exceptions , and you pray the help of the lords to see such a paper , that you might make inquiry after other varieties , do you think they are to help you to find out exceptions to the witnesses ? l. stafford . i do not desire their lordships to help me to find out exceptions ; but i have told your lordships of one exception to the affidavit which these gentlemen acknowledge to be true , and the other affidavit is , that he swears i spoke to him at doway in the year ( ) or ( ) which i can disprove ; and then i say he swearing several things false , he is no credible witness . l. h. stew. 't is admitted to your lordship that he did mistake the time . l. stafford . it is admitted that he said he spoke to me at doway . l. h. stew. how very an easie matter were it to expedite this process , by allowing the prisoner his demand in this particular . sir will. jones . i never saw it , and a great many of the managers say they never saw it . l. stafford . these gentlemen say i did it to put off the cause , i am far from it : for though i am in a condition very unfit to manage my defence , faint and weak with speaking so long , and hardly able to speak any more , yet i desire to finish this night , and if i see it now , it will be enough , i shall not desire to have a copy to advise with my counsel , or any body else . l. h. stew. pray gentlemen of the house of commons will you observe , my lord , as weary as he is , would make an end of the matter presently , if you would but send for the affidavit , mr. foley . my lords , it is not in our hands here , if the house of commons will order it , it may be done , we cannot order it of our selves . mr. powle . my lords , this is a paper that does properly belong to the house , and i do think , that none of us here that are managers for this trial , will undertake it shall be delivered without resorting to the house for their opinion ; for though i do verily beleive , and am fully persuaded , that what this noble lord at the bar does object , will not appear to be so ; for i think there is not any thing of my lord staffora's speaking with this witness at doway mentioned therein ; yet how far the presidents of this may reach in other cases , i think , is worthy the consideration of the house . and we cannot presume to offer any thing in it to your lordships , until you be pleased to give us leave to go and resort thither . then the lords withdrew , and after an hours and an halfs space returned , and proclamation was made for silence . l. h. steward . my lord viscount safford , my lords have considered of the demands you made ; and my lords , upon the debate of the reasons of your demands , are come to this resolution . your lordship did demand in the first place , that you might have a sight of the journal , and have the papers lodged in the house of peers : my lords take notice that this demand which your lordship now makes , is a demand that was granted you long ago , about two years since ; you have an order entred upon the books , that your lordship should have copies of every thing in that house , and if your lordship have not taken out copies , and if any thing is missing to your lordship that is yet there extant , 't is your lordships fault . however , my lords will command their journals to be brought hither , that your lordship may make that use of them that may be of most profit to you . for the other demand touching the affidavit supposed to be taken from turbervile by the justices of the peace , that my lords upon consideration had , do find that there is no obligation at all upon them as a court , to concern themselves in that matter . and therefore my lords have made no order in that point , but your lordship must come provided as well as you can , and the court can do no more to help you in it . for the rest , my lords did take notice that your lordship said before they were withdrawn , that you found your self very faint and weary , and that you were much spent in discourse , and tired with what already you have done . my lords are extreamly willing to give your lordship all the favour and accommodation possible , for the recollecting your self , therefore my lords will not now put you upon it , to go on to make your defence , but will give you time till to morrow . l. stafford . i humbly give your lordships thanks for your kindness and favour to me ; but here i profess , and call almighty god to witness , rather than i would have it thought i am willing to put it off , i would have sunk down dead at the bar. but , my lords , there was another demand that i made : your lordships say , i shall have copies of all the journals , and that you cannot help me to the affidavit of turbervile , i submit to it without saying one word more ; but i desire that i may have brought hither to morrow the journals , and other papers in the lords house , but i desire also the two affidavits of dugdale , taken the one the . the other the . of december following , which depositions were taken before mr. lane , and mr. vernon , in stafford town , when dugdale was in prison . l. h. stew. look you my lord , this is all under the same rule : what evidence soever there is before the court of peers , that you shall have ; whatsoever evidence is not in that court , you ought to come provided of ; the court is not to stay , nor to help you to evidence . l. staff. my lord , i beg your pardon , dugdale made an affidavit then , and says the clean contrary now ; i desire nothing but justice , and i am sure i shall have all justice from your lordships . l. h. stew. produce it , and alledge what you will for your self , it shall be heard . l. staff. how then shall i be able to make my defence , if i have not those papers , which i humbly concieve by the law , ought to be brought ? these gentlemen of the house of commons say , that i could not have turbervile's affidavit because it was in the house , and they could not give it without consent of the house , but this was examined before a justice of peace , and returned to the council : sure i shall have that ? i was examined by my lord of essex , and my lord of bridgewater , upon that affidavit twice i think , therefore that is material and necessary ; and i know your lordships would not have me come to defend my self without weapons . l. h. stew. my lord stafford , i do beseech your lordship to be a little better informed in your own business . you have leave to make use of the journal , and all papers that are entred there ; the clerks say , dugdale's oath is entred there . l. stafford . is the . of december there ? clerk. it is there . l. h. stew. pray , my lord , do not put the court upon interrogatories , but come provided as well as you can . l. stafford . if it be entred on the journal book , i desire not the original , i am very well satisfied . l. h. stew. will you be ready to go on to morrow , my lord ? l. stafford . i will withall my heart . l. h. stew. 't is too late gentlemen to go on to night , we must adjourn till to morrow . lord stafford . my lords , i had so much to write last night , that i had very little sleep ; i desire i may not come till ten. l. h. stew. my lord , i am not able to hear you , i take as much pains to come near you as i can . l. stafford . i had a great deal to write last night , i say , and i want some sleep ; i desire i may not come till ten. l. h. stew. will you be ready by ten a clock to morrow ? l. stafford . i will be ready by ten. l. h. stew. i will move my lords when they are withdrawn , to adjourn till ten to morrow . but my lord stafford , i do not know how your lordship is provided , or how you look after your own business . if you have not had copies of the journal all this while , 't is you are in the fault . a great deal of it is in print , you may send your solicitor to the clerk of the parliament , and take copies of what you have need of . i give you notice of it , that if you come unprovided , you may know it is your own fault . l. stafford . i do acknowledge i have copies of the journal book , i think of all ; but i do not find any thing of dugdale's second deposition there . l. h. stew. here is that of the . of december , that you ask after , send your solicitor and then you shall have a copy out of the journal of it . l. stafford . i assure your lordship i will be ready to morrow , if i can get those copies . lord high steward . my lords will give you as much ease , and all the accommodations that are fit . l. stafford . then to morrow i will be ready by ten a clock , if your lordships please , only i would desire your lordships to take notice , that these gentlemen of the house of commons do acknowledge that turbervile swore one day to one year , and the next day to another . l. h. stew. my lord stafford , you say you can be ready to mor●ow at ten a clock , are you sure you can be ready then ? l. stafford . i say , my lords , this , i shall not be so ready as i shall be next day ; but i assure your lordships , i will rather sink down in the place where i am , if you think fit , than put off the tryal . l. h. stew. look you gentlemen of the house of commons , in a case of this consequence , and of this vital importance to a man as this is , where is the inconvenience if there should be a days respite , and the court should adjourn till friday , if my lords be moved in it , i make no direction , but what inconvenience will be in it ? will it not be every way as well ? sir will. jones . my lords , your lordships does not expect from us to give our consent to put off the tryal . l. h. stew. i ask only what inconvenience it is ? sir will. jones . your lordships are the judges , and will do as you find it reasonable ; but this i say , it is very unusual , and scarce to be presidented , that when the prosecutors have given an evidence , the prisoner should have time , a further considerable time , to give his answer to it ; the prisoner knows before ▪ hand the general scope and drift of the evidence ; therefore for him to have time till to morrow is a favour ; but to have more than that , even a whole day to intervene , is very unusual . l. h. stew. if that be all , and the matter depend upon what is usual , i do venture with my lords leave , to inform you , that my lord of strafford had two days time after the prosecution to give his answer to what was said against him . sir william jones . that was an evidence upon twenty eight articles , this but upon two heads ; and that was after a long examination of many days . l. stafford . my lords i had prepared my self for my tryal as well as i could , and had written down a few things that i intended to say ; and i profess before god as i am a man , and as i am a christian , of all i intended to say i have in a manner made use of very few words ; but as to what i had to say upon the evidence i was forced to lay all aside , because i wanted these papers ; i have not eaten to day , and being forced to lay aside all that i had written , i shall need a whole day to write ; however i submit my self to your lordships in that matter . lord high steward . my lord , if it be equal to your lordship , and your lordship will be as ready to morrow as another day , this court will be more ready . l. stafford . i assure your lordships , if your lordships do give me another day , i will not debate with my counsel any one thing upon the papers i have asked . lord high steward . pray , my lord , will you be pleased to make your demand to my lords , who are your judges , by what time you will be content to be foreclosed . lord stafford . my lords , if you will give me till friday , i shall be ready to give my evidence , and i will bring witnesses sufficient i hope to prove my innocency . sir will. jones . my lords , we do not presume at all to offer our consent to what time the court shall be adjourned — l. h. stew. no , we do not ask your consent . sir will. jones . and i hope your lordships will not ask the prisoners consent , nor do it by his direction . l. h. stew. de morte hominis non est cunctatio longa . sir will. jones . but we must desire your lordships , as we are entrusted by the house of commons , to manage this tryal , to take notice , that as we do not expect your lordships should take the measures from our desires , much less do we expect you should do it at the only instance of the prisoner . 't is a great advantage to this lord to choose his own time when he will please to answer our evidence . we do know very well , that in this case there have been attempts to suborn witnesses , and that we shall prove in due time , and attempts to destroy witnesses too ; so that there hath been too much time lost already , and i think to morrow is a very convenient time for him to make his answer . and i must observe to your lordships , that the prisoner hath gained his end of not making his answer this day by raising an objection , which in my thoughts carried no great weight in it , though when it was made , your lordships were pleased to adjourn upon it : but seeing he hath got his point of deferring the making answer till to morrow , there can be no reason he should gain a further day , since the depositions may be ready by to morrow as well as by the next day . and therefore we desire your lordships will be pleased to go on in the tryal to morrow . l. h. stew. you shall know their lordships pleasure when they are withdrawn . is it your lordships pleasure that we should adjourn ? lords . ay , ay. l. h. stew. this house is adjourned into the parliament chamber . so the lords withdrew in their order , and the commons went back to their house , and mr. speaker resumed the chair . a message was sent from the lords by sir timothy baldwin and sir samuel clark. mr. speaker . the lords have sent us to acquaint this house , that they have ordered the prisoner william viscount stafford to be brought to the bar in westminster-hall to morrow morning at ten of the clock . and then the commons adjourned to eight of the clock next morning . the third day . thursday , december . . at the hour of ten in the morning the lords adjourned into westminster-hall , and returned in their former order into the court there erected ; and mr. speaker having left the chair , the commons were seated as before : the court being sat , proclamation for silence was made , and the lieutenant of the tower commanded to bring his prisoner to the bar , which being done , the lord high steward spake to him as followeth : l. h. stew. my lord stafford , this is the time appointed to hear what your lordship hath to say in your defence , and to call your witnesses . sir will. jones . my lords , yesterday my lord viscount stafford was pleased to make mention of an affidavit of mr. turbervile taken before two justices of the peace , wherein he was pleased to say there was some amendment made , and so indeed we did then acknowledg there was . but he had a desire to see it notwithstanding our acknowledgment , because he was informed that that which turbervile swore then , differed from what turbervile swore yesterday . my lords , at that time we had not the affidavit , nor was it proper for us to produce it , for indeed it remained in the justice of peace's hands that took it ; but now that his lordship may have full satisfaction , and not only his lordship , but also all that are present at this tryal . i do inform his lordship , that the affidavit is in the hands of a member of the house of commons , sir will. poulteney by name , and if his lordship please , he may have it produceed , and make what use he can of it . l. h. stew. 't is extream honourably and worthily done of the house of commons , and my lord hath no manner of exception left him . l. stafford . my lords , if i shall have occasion to use it , i shall call for it ; but i would first say something to your lordships ; my lords , i first give your lordships thanks , for granting me the liberty to come so late to day , i have had a little sleep upon it . your lordships heard yesterday , when you had dr. oats at the bar , the first thing that he said , as i remember , was to desire you would be pleased to leave him to his own method ; i beg of your lordships the same favour , that i may begin with the one or the other witnesses , or with matter of law , as i please . l. h. steward . god forbid but you should take your own method in your defence . l. stafford . in order to which , i desire first mr. turbervile may come to the bar. l. h. stew. do you call turbervile , my lord ? l. stafford . yes , my lord , i do . l. h. stew. he is there , what say you to him ? l. stafford . my lords , i will ask him but one question , and i hope i shall have occasion to ask him no more : when was the last time that he spoke with me ? l. h. stew. mr. turbervile , i think i hear right , i do not know : my lord stafford asks when was the last time you spoke with his lordship ? mr. turbervile . it was in november . l. stafford . i have very much to say against his evidence ; but i hope your lordships will not think him any evidence against me , or any body else . but i desire your judgment , whether i be not within the compass of the time limited by the statute . mr. serjeant maynard . express your self , my lord , for we do not understand you . l. stafford . i cannot say more than i do ; the time which the statute limits is six months , but this is five years ; i desire the statute may be read . l. h. stew. what statute , my lord ? l. stafford . the statute of the th . of this king. l. h. stew. if your lordship pleases you shall have it read , but your lordship does not observe , you are prosecuted and impeached of high treason upon the statute of the th . of edward the d. not upon the statute of the th . of this king , made for the safety of the kings person , which limits the prosecution of some offences to be within six months ; but the prosecution for treason may be at any time . l. staff. does your lordship say it may be at any time ? lord high steward . yes , my lord. l. stafford . this truly does very much surprise me , though i am wholly ignorant in matters of law. my lords , i have ever heard that no man can be prosecuted by that statute but within so many days , in one part of it thirty days , in another six months ; and i desire your lordships that the statute may be read . l. h. stew. if your lordship please , the statute shall be read ; if your lordship desires the clause of the statute of the th . of this king , which limits the prosecution to be within six months , that shall be read . but i conceive your lordship is not accused upon that statute . lord stafford . i beseech your lordships , i may know whether i am prosecuted upon the statute of the th . of this king , or upon what other statute . l. h. steward . what say the worthy gentlemen of the house of commons ; is my lord prosecuted upon the statute of the th . of this king ? m. serj. maynard . not at all , my lord ▪ he is not prosecuted upon that statute , but upon the common law , and the th . of edward the d. which was only declarative of the common law. l. staff. this is a point of law. sir will. jones . what is the point of law. l. staff. whether i can be prosecuted after so many days ? l. h. steward . the law is very clear . if you were prosecuted upon the th . of this king for any less offence than treason , you could not be prosesecuted after six months , but if you be prosecuted for treason either upon the th . of edward the d. or . car. d. there is no time limited , and god forbid there should . l. stafford . i beseech your lordships judgment , whether there be not a statute , i think 't is in the reign of edward the th . that sets the time , after which no man shall be prosecuted for any thing of treason ; i desire a quarter of an hours time to look into the statute . l. h. stew. what say you , gentlemen ? l. stafford . pray my lord , let me read the statute of edward the th . mr. serj. maynard . we know not of any such statute . l. stafford . i will not say there is , but i will say , i cannot read if there be not . l. h. stew. pray gentlemen of the house of commons , my lord does suppose he hath some kind of objection in law to make , which he cannot make out of himself ; will it be amiss to let his counsel make and propose the question for him ? sir will. jones . my lords , we rather would have my lord propose the objection ; for your lordships know , till a matter of law is proposed , he cannot be admitted to have counsel . if he desires time to recollect himself about the objection , we can't oppose it . but we desire that he may propose the objection , and after if it be any doubt in matter of law , your lordships will assign him counsel to be heard to speak to it . sir franc. winn. this would be a way for a prisoner to have the advantage of counsel , when they ought not to be allowed ; for 't is but to say , he hath some doubt which he cannot propose himself , and so let in his counsel to make objections for him . if any question of law do arise , and that question is stated , you will allow the prisoner counsel to argue it , but at this rate he may make the like pretences in every part of his defence , and so obtain that counsel shall manage his whole defence for him . l. h. stew. i suppose my lord does intend an objection as to the time of the prosecution , but he does not know how to make it . he supposes he is prosecuted after the six months , which he thinks is the time limited for the prosecution . but i pray , my lord stafford , will your lordship take time to recollect your self , and make an objection fit for counsel to be heard upon , and you shall have it . l. staff. i beseech you , i may have the statute-book with me , for i have none my self , my lord. sir will. jones . with all our hearts , we do not oppose it . then my lord withdrew into the room provided for him , and within a quarter of an hour returned . l. h. stew. say , my lord. l. stafford . my lords , i do confess i have been very much mistaken ever since i was first committed to the tower : for i did conceive that they would have proceeded , as i thought , i was impeached upon the statute of the th . of this king. i humbly desire your lordships judgment , whether i ought or no , to be prosecuted upon that statute ? l. h. stew. the gentlemen have told you already : they prosecute you upon the statute of th . of edward the d. and upon the common law. l. staff. and they lay aside that statute ? l. h. stew. what statute ? l. staff. the th . of this king. l. h. stew. what say you , gentlemen , once more ? sir fr. winn. my lords , we have declared already to his lordship , and if my lord had looked well upon the articles of impeachment , he could not have put that question , but would have found himself impeached for treason at the common law , declared by the th . of edward the d. l. staff. so then they lay that aside of the th . of this king. mr. serj. maynard . we do not mention any statute , but we mention the crime , and that crime is against the common law declared by the statute , to wit , the attempting the king's death , and the subversion of the government . l. stafford . my lords , there is no doubt but the attempting the king's death is a great and hainous crime , but , my lords , i do not find that in the impeachment , there is any overt act at all . and whether i shall answer to a treason not proved by any overt act sworn by two witnesses , i submit to your lordships . but , my lords , because your lordships and the house of commons , may not think that i propose these things out of a desire of delay ; if your lordships please , it may be saved to me with all other points of law , i will go on to my proofs . l. h. stew. yes , all these things shall be saved to you , pray let us hear your evidence . l. staff. since your lordships hath granted me that , be pleased to give me leave to go to my evidence , and i begin with stephen dugdale . l. h. stew. set up dugdale . l. staff. will your lordships please i may have pen , ink and paper ? l. h. stew. by all means , my lord. ( which was given him . ) l. staff. may it please your lordships stephen dugdale said , if i understand him aright , ( and i ask him again ) that he knew something of the plot , or years ago . l. h. stew. what say you , mr. dugdale , you hear the question . did not you say you knew of the plot or years ago ? mr. dugdale . i did say it , and did explain my meaning in it . i did say there was among us such a preparation to be made against the king died , of arms and money , that neither should be wanting . l. staff. i beseech your lordship to ask what proportion of arms was to be provided . l. h. stew. what proportion of arms was to be provided ? mr. dugdale . i never heard it nominated how many absolutely . i have heard of some numbers . i heard of late of . that were to be raised beyond sea , what the whole number in england was , i have forgot , but i think i have heard mr. gavan , and some of the priests say , that if there was occasion , they should have at least to assist them , that was of men , and i suppose they had arms as well as men. l. stafford . my lords , if this were true which he says mr. gavan said , that they were , i desire to know what men he ment , what religion they must be of . lord high stew. what religion were they of that were to come in and help ? mr. dugdale . he did not name them at that time , but i understood them , and so i apprehend the company would , that they were roman catholicks . l. stafford . 't is a strange thing that there should be catholicks raised , when there are not ● in england that can bear arms. l. h. stew. good my lord , they might come from beyond sea , and so they might be so many roman catholicks , though there were not so many in england . mr. serj. maynard . and he says not they were roman catholicks , but he heard so . mr. treby . there might be so many roman catholicks , and such as should be with them . l. staff. did he hear or years that i was one to be among them ? l. h. stew. answer that question : did you hear then that my lord stafford was to be one among them ? mr. dugdale . i cannot remember it that i did , my lord. l. stafford . then , my lords , i make this use of it : he tells you of a plot years ago , that men in arms were ready against the king's death . — mr. dugdale . i did not say so , my lords , i desire i may be understood aright . — l. stafford . you say you heard so . mr. dugdale . i speak as to the number of men what i heard of late at the consults and meetings within these two years . l. stafford . but i speak of years ago , what number of men was there to be raised ? mr. dugdale . my lords , it was a general word that was amongst us , that we must be provided against that time , against the death of the king , but no number at all . l. stafford . this , my lords , under favour , i conceive does not concern me . he tells you there was such a thing , it might be so , or it might not be so , i am not concerned in it , then 't is out of doors as to what concerns me : i conceive otherwise , if the gentlemen conceive otherwise they will say so . then , my lords , the next thing is , how long ago it is since i first spake to him about this plot , and i beseech your lordships he may mention time and place . l. h. stew. you hear the question , mr. dugdale . mr. dugdale . the first time , to my best remembrance — l. stafford . i beseech you , my lords , let us have no remembrance , but let him swear positively . l. h. stew. there is no mortal man can swear otherwise than according to his remembrance . l. stafford . when a mans life and honour , and all he hath is at stake , and indeed in consequence every man in england is concerned if they swear not positively , but still say as i remember , who can make a defence ? l. h. stew. mr. dugdale , go on and say as near as you can , and be as particular as you can , upon your oath . mr. dugdale . that which i can positively affirm , is , it was about august ▪ or september ( . ) l. stafford . he said yesterday it was in the latter end of august , or the beginning of september , which are two months . i beseech you what does he mean by the latter end of august , how long before the end of august ? l. h. stew. how long was it before the last day in august ? mr. dugdale . my lords , i will not be positive , but it was either in one month , or the other , i did not keep a diary , or else i would give your lordships satisfaction . l. stafford . i beseech your lordships he may positively say whether in august or nor in august , or whether in september or not in september . mr. dugdale . i dare not venture to swear that , i dare not do it . l. staff. then saving my exceptions to the incertainty of that afterwards , i would ask him what day was it in september that i spoke to him . mr. dugd. i remember one was either the . or . of september ( . ) l. staff. my lords , he says the . or . does he say that was the first time he spoke with me ? sir jolm trevor . no , no. l. staff. i beseech you my lords , they may not answer the questions , but the witnesses ; they cry no , no. l. h. stew. my lord , you shall certainly have an answer to all the questions you will ask . l. staff. but when i ask they answer for them , i would know whether that is the course or no. l. h. stew. do not disquite your self for any thing that is said about you , you shall have a fair hearing . l. stafford . but , my lords , i cannot but be disquieted when i hear these learned gentlemen make answers to my questions for the witnesses . l. h. stew. mr. dugdale , was the . or the . of september , you speak of , the first time you spoke to my lord stafford ? mr. dugdale . no , my lords , it was not . l. stafford . pray , my lords , what day was it then i spoke first to him ? l. h. stew. what was the day you first spoke to my lord ? mr. dugdale . truly my lords i cannot remember so well as to tell you . l. h. stew. do you remember when my lord came to tixal ? mr. dugdale . i remember one sunday in particular , but i cannot tell what day of the month it was . l. h. stew. do you remember my lord stafford at tixal in company of my lord aston , and father evers ? mr. dugdale . yes , i do . l. h. stew. do you remember that any discourse passed between them ? mr. dugdale . yes , i do . l. h. stew. was that before or after the . of september ? mr. dugdale . both before and after . l. stafford . my lords , he says there was a consult at tixal , where such and such were present , and the kings death determined , i ask when was that ? mr. dugdale . that was in september , i cannot say positively the day , but in september , or the latter end of august . l. stafford . my lords , i must acquiesce and submit to your lordships to do what you please ; but if he does not name times nor places , how can i make my defence ? i desire he may say positively within five days of the one or of the other ; and , my lords , i will put it upon that , if he say five days before the end of august , or five days in the beginning of september , which one would think is space enough , that is ten days time . l. h. steward . my lords do observe how far mr. dugdale goes , and that he is no further positive than he does express himself . l. stafford . i beseech your lordships , i press this , because it concerns me very much , that he may be positive within five days over or under . lord high steward . can you remember whether it were within five days of the one , or of the other ? mr. dugdale . truly my lords , i cannot be positive , if i had not made a particular remark upon that of the ▪ or ▪ the . i could not have remembred that ; for i did not then intend to reveal the plot , or else i could have given you satisfaction in that . lord high steward . my lord , your lordship hath an answer to it , he cannot speak more positively to it than he does . l. stafford . i beseech you then how is it possible i can make my defence ? mr. dugdale . my lords , i kept no journal : if i had i would be more positive . l. stafford . he says it was the latter end of august , or the beginning of september , i desire he will say whether it was the last week in august , or the first week in september . l. h. stew. he answers he cannot tell , your lordship must make what advantage you can of that answer . l. stafford . i can make no advantage of it unless he does speak positively to the time . my lords , i beseech you , i may know what is the end of august and the beginning of september ? l. h. stew. my lord , i hear you not . l. stafford . if a man says the beginning of june i was at such a place , how many days is the beginning , and how many days the end of a month ? how much time will your lordships understand the meaning of that to be ? i am concerned extremely in the point of time , for it is that which the whole business depends upon , i mean as to this man. l. h. steward . my lord , go on with your evidence , i know not how to give you an answer , what judgment my lords will make of it , or how much they will understand by it , till they are withdrawn , they observe how much you lordship insists upon it , and will hear what the worthy gentlemen of the house of commons will answer to it . l. stafford . my lords , my whole business with this fellow is concerned in a positive answer to this question , i give him i think reasonable time to confine himself to . l. h. stew. what say you to the . or . of september , my lord ? l. stafford . my lords , i shall give a clear answer to that anon ; but i am extremely concerned in this to know whether it was in august or september . l. h. stew. my lord , if your lordship be concerned never so much at that , the witness can swear no more than he can swear . he says about the latter end of august , or the beginning of september ; will your lordship stand still for that ? l. stafford . well then i will go on as well as i can ; as for the matter of the . or . of september , i beseech your lordships i may ask dugdale one question , whether at the tryal of sir george wakeman , or the five jesuits he did not say the consult was in august , if he deny it , i shall prove it . lord high stew. mr. dugdale , my lord asks whether at the tryal of wakeman , or of the five jesuits you did not say it was in august . mr. dugd. my lords , i did name there was a consult at boscobel in august , but i do not remember that i did name my lord stafford in any consult in august positively ; but as i say now , the latter end of august or the beginning of september . but i did name that there was a consult at boscobel in august , ( . ) l. staff. my lords , he did say i was at the consult in august . mr. dugd. i did not say my lord stafford was there , i don't charge him in it , and if any such thing was printed i have wrong done me . l. staff. then he says he had nothing to do with me till the latter end of august or the beginning of september . my lords , i beseech your lordships to ask him whether in sir george wakeman's tryal he did not say , he was to receive orders from me in june or july , when i came into the country . l. h. stew. did not you say at sir george wakeman's tryal , that you were to receive orders from my lord stafford in june or july , when he came into the countrey ? mr. dugdale . my lord , i submit to your lordship and the rest of my lords here , whether when that question was asked by my lord stafford , i did not say , that the first time i entred into correspondency with the consulters , they told me , my lord was to come down then , and i should receive orders from him ? i had heard of my lord stafford before , but not to enter into any consults with him , till he came down , the latter end of that summer . l. staff. i beseech your lordships pardon me , i desire him to answer positively , whether at the tryal of sir george wakeman , he did not say , he was to receive orders from me in june or july , when i came into the country . l. h. stew. did you say so at sir george wakeman's tryal ? mr. dugdale . i believe i did say so , for i had it from others , and not my lord stafford himself . l. staff. my lords , in june or july i was not in the country . l. h. steward . he says , you were to come down , not that you did come down . l. stafford . if you will let him do thus , there is no man safe , i shall begin the tragedy and millions will follow . he swore at the tryal of sir george wakeman , or that of those other persons , that there was a consult at my lord aston's at tixal , where i was one , in august . mr. dugdale . my lords , i did not swear so ; but in august or september , or one of them , as now i swear . l. stafford . i shall prove it by the book , and witnesses that were there . mr. dugd. then they did me wrong by printing it , for i never said of your lordship otherwise than i do now . l. stafford i desire my witnesses may be called to prove it , for i conceive it is very material . my lords , does he deny it ? mr. dugd. i do say there was a consult ▪ at tixal in august , but i did not charge your lordship positively to be there then , nor with more than i do now . l. staff. i think you did , and i have witnesses to prove it . and 't is impossible for any man living to defend himself , if persons shall swear as they suppose , think , or remember . i tell your lordships , i was not there in all the month of august ▪ l. h. stew. does your lordship intend to call any witnesses ? l. stafford . my lords , i thought i had more witnesses than i have . but i have two here , if your lordships will hear them , that he did swear i was at tixal in august . l. h. stew. who are they ? l. stafford . my daughter winchester for one , and a lady that is my kinswoman for another . l. h. stew. let them stand up , they are not to be sworn . you don't except against them , gentlemen ? sir will. jones . no , let him prove what he can . lady marchioness of winchester . he did swear that he was to receive his orders from — l. h. stew. madam , your ladyship is not upon your oath ; but you are under all the obligations of truth and honour in the world . lady march. winch. my lords , by the grace of god i will not speak an untrue word . sir will. jones . we desire to know this ladies name ? l. stafford . it is my daughter winchester . lady march. winch. this stephen dugdale , did say , at the tryal of sir george wakeman , that he was to receive orders from my lord in june or july , when he was to come down ; and that my lord was at a consult at tixal in august . l. h. stew. did he say positively in august , or in august and september . lady march. winch. no , he did not name september . mr. dugdale . my lords , i might say my lord was to come down then , but not that ever i said he was there but as now . l. h. stew. but she says , you did not name september . l. stafford . here is another lady . sir will. jones . who is she , my lord ? l. stafford . mrs. howard , daugh●er to sir george ●lount , and married to mr. howard , a kinsman of mine ; she is now a widow . mrs. howard . my lords , at the tryal of sir george wakeman , dugdale was asked to be positive in the month my lord stafford came down . and he said , he came down in june or july ; but he said the consult was in august , wherein my lord stafford was . l. h. stew. that lady likewise says the same , that you would not be positive as to june or july ; but as to august you were positive that my lord was there . mr. dugd. no , my lords , i only said , in august there was a consult , and in june or july my lord was to come down . mrs. howard . i do assure you we came to that tryal on purpose to observe every word he said about my lord stafford , and we have kept it in our memories ever since . l. h. stew. what do you say , mr. dugdale , to it ? mr. dugd. i suppose there was a great many more at that tryal than these two worthy ladies , and i suppose some of them may remember , i said no more than i do now . i said then , my lord was to come down at that time , and so i said several times , but not positively that he was there till the end of august or the beginning of september . l. stafford . my lords , i do positively averr , here are two witnesses , that say , he swore , i was there at the consult in august . now it concerns me to prove , that i was not there in august , since he said absolutely i was there in august ; and i assure you i can prove i was not there not all the whole month. in the beginning of august i came from london , from my own house ; on tuesday or wednesday the . of august , i went to my lord bellasis's , and that night i went to george porters , the next night i went onwards towards bath ; when i was there i went over and staid with my noble lord , the marquess of worcester , there i staid two or three days , and i went thence to another place hard by there , and then i came back again to bath , and went back again afterwards to my lords house ; and the first or second of september , i went from my lords house to london . then it this be acknowledged , i need say no more ; if not , i 'll prove it by sufficient witnesses : so then i was not there the whole month of august , and the beginning of september he says he spoke with me . i was not there till the . of september . now i beseech your lordships how that could possibly be the beginning of september . i submit to you , whether then he be a witness fit to be heard , that shall sweat positively what hath no colour of truth in it , i also leave to you . and if they object i was not where i say i was in august , i will prove it . and for the . and . of september , i do own something of that , and i shall prove to your lordships what it was . l. h. stew. call what witnesses you please my lord. l. stafford . my daughter proves when i went out of town . lady march. winch. my lords , it was on a tuesday my father went to my lord bellasis , he dined there and then went on to george porters . l. stafford . that i was at bath i shall call witnesses . l. h. stew. my lord , you should prove when you first came to tixal , my lord aston's . l. staff. will that satisfie your lordship ? l. h. stew. me ; 't is not me you are to satisfie , but my lords , and the gentlemen of the house of commons . l. staff. then i do own to your lordships , i came the first time the th . of september to tixal . l. h. stew. that was the first day you were there ? l. staff. that year , my lord , it was . sir will. jones . prove it . l. staff. does he deny that , my lords ? l. h. stew. do you deny that my lord came first to tixal the . of september ? or do you know he was there before ? mr. dugdale . my lords , i have positively spoke to no day , but only to the . or . of september . l. staff. where is my lord marquess of worcester's servant ? l. h. stew. my lord stafford , it will be best for your lordship to produce all the witnesses you have , and not to leave any thing undone that you can prove . l. staff. but i beseech your lordships , i may ask one question , if i shall name any of the house of peers as my witnesses , does that exempt them from being judges ? l. h. stew. no , my lord. if your lordship have any witnesses among any of my lords here , they may very well testifie for you , and yet remain still in the capacity of your judges : for my lord of strafford had a great many witnesses that were peers . sir john trevor . we do not oppose it , my lords . l. h. stew. my lord call your witnesses . l. stafford there is no place appointed for them , and therefore i could not have them ready here ; i have sent for them ; i have a throng of them . l. h. stew. they will open the way , and we will stay for them . l. stafford . my lords , i desire , that as yesterday , when the witnesses were sworn against me , mine did not hear what they said , so i desire when my witnesses come , theirs may not be present . l. h. stew. my lord , with your lordships pardon , it was not well done that your witnesses were not there ; but if witnesses be to confront one another , shall they not hear what one another say ? l. stafford . my lords , i am so clear in every thing , i will dispute no little matters . then my lords witness stood up . lord high steward . what is this mans name you call now , my lord ? l. stafford . indeed my lord i ▪ don't know . witness . my name is bonny , my lords . l. h. stew. does your lordship call this man ? l. staff. yes , my lords . l. h. stew. you are not upon your oath , but you are to look that a strict account will be taken of what you say . mr. foley . my lords , we desire to know where this witness lives ? bonny . i live in exeter-street , by exeter exchange . l. staff. i declare it , i know him not , but i am told he can witness for me . l. h. stew. your christian name ? bonny . thomas . l. h. stew. what profession are you of ? bonny . i live as clerk of the kitchin to my lord marquess of worcester . mr. foley . what religion are you of ? bonny . a protestant , one of the church of england . l. staff. my lords , i humbly move your lordships , when i asked mr. smith the first day , where he was made a priest , a gentleman said , he was not bound to answer any thing against himself that might make him criminal . i desire that the question may not be put to my witnesses what religion they are of . l. h. stew. the gentleman will not offer to ask any question that may make a man accuse himself ; but my lord , a papist or not a papist is not so penal as a priest or no priest . mr. foley . to acknowledge a mans self a papist , is not to make him a criminal . l. h. stew. what does your lordship call this witness for ? l. staff. to prove when i was at my lord marquess of worcesters . l. h. stew. what say you , when was my lord stafford at my lord marquess of worcesters ? bonny . in august ( . ) l. h. stew. do you remember it perfectly ? bonny . very well . l. h. stew. what day of august ? bonny . the . of august , which my lord marquess keeps as his wedding day every year , and the gentlemen of the country are invited thither . my lord stafford was then at bath , and my lord marquess was pleased to send his coach for him to be present there that day ; there he staid that day and the next day , and then returned on monday . and in the same month , the . of august , my lord came again from bath to badmin●on , my lord marquess of worcester's , and upon the monday after returned for london . l. h. stew. that was the beginning of september ? bonny . yes , the . he went to london . l. h. stew. will you ask him genlemen any questions ? managers . no , my lords . lord high steward . call another witness then . ( who stood up . ) l. h. stew. what is this mans name ? witness . thomas . witness . thomas white . l. h. stew. thomas what ? l. h. steward . where do you live ? white . i live with my lord marquess of worcester at badminton . l. h. stew. what do you say ? white . my lords — lord marquess of worcester . my lord steward , i have only this to say ▪ my lord stafford desired that his witnesses might not be asked what religion they were of , but i desire all my servants may be asked , for i keep none but protestants . lord high steward . what religion are you of ? white . a protestant . l. stafford . my lords , i did not require it for them ; i know my lord keeps none but protestants , but i asked it for others of my witnesses , that may come and be startled at it . l. h. steward . what say you , when was my lord stafford at my lord marquess of worcester's house ? white . the . of august ( . ) i fetched him from bath , being my lords wedding day . l. h. stew. you fetched him ? white . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. what place do you serve my lord marquess in ? white . as coachman . l. h. stew. was he there afterwards ? white . yes he was , but i can't remember the day , only this being a remarkable day i can remember it . l. h. stew. did you carry my lord from thence towards london ? white . yes , i did . l. h. stew. when was that ? white . the second of september to the best of my remembrance . l. h. stew. gentlemen , will you ask him any questions ? managers . no. l. stafford . i think this is so clear , i shall not need to trouble your lordships further with more witnesses . l. h. stew. call whom you please , my lord , and as many as you think fit , they shall be heard . l. stafford . one more then , my lords . ( who stood up . ) l. high stew. what is your name ? witness . richard bevan . l. h. stew. who do you live with ? bevan . i am groom to my lord marquess of vvorcester . l. h. stew. what religion are you of ? bevan . a protestant . lord high steward . do you remember when my lord stafford was at the marquess of worcester's house ? bevan , yes , i do . lord high steward . what time was it ? bevan . the . of august . lord high steward . do you remember any other day ? bevan . no , my lord , but he was there that day . l. h. steward . will you ask him any questions ? managers . no , my lords . l. stafford . my lords , if your lordships please , i desire my lord marquess of worcester may tell your lordships , whether his men have said true or no. lord marquess of worcester . my lords , i do remember , that my lord stafford was pleased to do me the honour , to come upon my wedding day from the bath , and dine with me , as most persons of quality that are of my acquaintance , and happen to be at the bath at that time , are pleased to do . and as most of the gentlemen of the countrey , within such a distance do also . ( and that day is the . of august ) i think he was there once or twice after , from the bath , but i cannot tell precisely the days ; but that particular day i remember , because it was my wedding day . l. h. steward . can your lordship remember when my lord stafford went to london ? lord marq. of worcester . truly i cannot tell that , my lords . l. h. steward . did you not after that , lend my lord your coach ? lord marq. of worcester . yes , i did , to carry him as far as sandy-lane , on the road to london ; but the particular day i remember not ; but one of the persons examined ( who was then my clerk of the kitchin ) must needs know , because he books every day , who is in the house , and therefore i believe what he has said is true . l. stafford . stephen dugdale i desire may come again . i conceive i have made it plain to your lordships , that stephen dugdale did swear , that in august there was a consult at my lord aston's , where i was , and i conceive it is also clear that in august i was not there ; and then if it were the beginning of september , that could not be neither , for i came not down to tixall till the . i beseech you to ask him when i offered him the five hundred pounds to kill the king , i think he says it was the . or . lord high steward . what was the time my lord offered you the five hundred pound ? mr. dugdale . it was about that time , the . or . of september to my remembrance . lord stafford . he said positively before , it was one of those two days , i beseech your lordship to ask him where it was ? l. h. steward . where was that offer made ? mr. dugdale . in my lords lodging chamber at tixall . l. stafford . then one question more , i desire you lordship to ask him , what day the race was at etching-hill , between sir john crew 's man and lazinby ? mr. dugd. if it please your lordship , i do conceive it was about that time . l. stafford . i pray he may answer positively , for if you please i will tell you how it was . it is very true the . of september this fellow was in my chamber , and i shall trouble your lordships with some little discourse about it , and my reasons why : first , i beseech your lordships to permit me to let you know , that this fellow did serve my lord aston in the quality of a bailiff . and i never thought him to be an honest man , he was a mean servant , and when the other servants waited but till the second course came in , he staid till the coach-man and the groom went to dinner , and eat with them . i profess before god it is true as that the sun shines , i have often and often , i cannot tell how many times , when i have been very dry at my lords table , and seen him by me , not called for drink , i did detest him as so mean a knave , that i often refused to take drink at his hands . and now for me to offer this f●llow five hundred pounds — l. h. steward . i think your lordship says he was bailiff to my lord aston . l. stafford . but i knew him to be an errant knave , and a great gamester at races and such things . l. h. steward . my lord , would you have offered five hundred pounds to an honest man to kill the king ? mr. serj. maynard . you said you never saw him . s. stafford . i said i had seen him , but now i did not know him by his peruke . lord high stew. did you not know him , my lord ? l. stafford . no , my lords , i profess i did not . l. h. steward . why your lordship was a going to shew that the race at etching-hill was upon the ● . of september , and your lordship confesses , that he did speak with you on the . of september in your chamber ; and dugdale says , this day was the very offer made him of five hundred pounds to kill the king. what do you say dugdale , were you at the race ? mr. dugd. yes , i was with my lord at the race . lord high stew. did my lord speak with you before he went or after ? mr. dugd. before . l. h. steward . that morning in his chamber ▪ mr. dugd. yes , it was that very morning , before he went to the race . l. stafford . i do own , my lord , thus far , he was in my chamber that morning ; but , my lord , i can prove what i say to you . my lords , that . of september in the morning , i was in my bed , and there comes a servant of mine that hath served twelve or fourteen years , and he comes in to me , and says , yonder is stephen dugdale very desirous to go to this race ; it seems he says he went along with me to this race . mr. dugdale . i say i went either before or after , or when you went to the race , for i was with you at the race . l. h. steward . whether he went with you , or no , is not the point , but whether he was in your chamber at that time . lord stafford . 't is the point , for he said just now , he went with me , as i apprehended him . but i tell your lordships , my servant came and told me , stephen dugdale desires that you will ask my lord aston leave that he may go before to the race , my lord is angry with him already for his medling in races , and he dare not ask himself . my lords , i was a little concerned in the race , for i had betted some money , and i thought with my self , should i ask my lord aston leave for him to go ▪ my lord will not deny me , but perhaps will take it ill to be asked ; so i was not over willing to do it . but i bid my servant call him in , and when he came , i asked him some foolish questions about the race , as who he thought would win , and the like ; but i told him i would get leave of my lord for him . my lords , i did go to my lord aston , and told him , my lord i am sending my servant before to the place of the race , but i am afraid he does not well know the way , shall stephen dugdale go along with him ? my lord gave him leave to go ; but , my lords , i dressed me , and did not speak one tittle more to this dugdale , but he went away before , and i was hardly or but just drest when he was gone . l. h. steward . i pray , my lord , was your lordship at no time alone with him in your chamber ? l. stafford . no , never since i was born , never in all my life . lord high steward . no , my lord ! l. stafford . he says my servants use to come for him , i profess it is all false . lord high steward . what say you to that , mr. dugdale ? mr. dugd. my lords , i was in my chamber , and busie when my lord sent for me that morning ; and it was either by his page or one that waits on him in his chamber ; i went to my lord , and the page was in the chamber , and he ordered him to go out . l. stafford . i declare and averr to your lordships he was in the hall or the next room and desired to come in . lord high steward . where is the page ? l. stafford . this fellow was but a poor boy found at the door , then he was a thresher , and now a witness for the king. ( then my lord stafford's man stood up . ) l. h. steward . what is your name ? witness . my name is furnese . lord high stew. do you remember the day of the race at etching-hill ? furnese . yes , i do , my lords . l. h. stew. do you remember dugdale was in your lords chamber that morning . furnese . yes , i do . l. h. stew. do you remember whether your lord did bid you go out or no ? furnese . no , he did not . l. h. steward . were you there all the while dugdale was there ? furnese . yes , my lords , i was . l. stafford . pray , my lords , ask him whether i sent for dugdale , or he desired to speak to 〈◊〉 . l. h. steward . did my lord send for dugdale , or did he come to you to speak to my lord for him ? furnese . no , dugdale spoke to me first . l. h. steward . what did he say to you , pray ? furnese . my lords , about eight or nine of the clock in the morning , i came to go to my lords chamber , and i came through my lord aston's hall , and coming through , i met mr. dugdale coming to me , and said , he had one favour to desire of me . he said , he would fain go to the race , but , said he , i do not know how to go , for my lord is very angry with me , and if i should ask him , he would be worse , for he is displeased that i have medled so far in these matters already : therefore i desire some means may be used that i may go , and i desire that you would speak to my lord , to get leave for me to go ; for mr. fox is there , and hath a great deal of money in his hands , and divers people will give mony to bett ; and so it will be a great loss and prejudice to me not to go . so i did promise him , my lords , and went into my lords chamber , and told him ; and when i had spoke to my lord , my lord bid him come in , and when he came in , my lord asked him several questions about the race ; my lord asked him what hopes he had , for he said , a great deal of money was laid by several people ; he replyed , he could win , but he wanted money to bett ; says my lord , i will bett twenty pound for staffordshire sake though i were sure to lose . and then after some discourse to that purpose , my lord told him , he would speak to his lord. after my lord was drest , he went out of his chamber , and went to my lord aston , to ask him leave for dugdale ; and my lord bid me make my self ready to go to the race . about nine or ten of the clock i was ready to go , and coming down the back stairs , my lord met me ; go , says he , to etching-hill , and see what bets there are , and take stephen dugdale with you to shew you the way , for i have asked his lord leave for him to go . so stephen dugdale went along with me to the stable , and took out his horse ; mine was not ready , but i overtook him in half a mile , and it was eleven of the clock ere we were at ridgley . i asked some questions about one mr. gerard ; and i think about twelve of the clock we were at the race , and i staid till one with him , and mr. fox , who was a party concerned in the race , and there were several betts laid ; i was watchfnl when my lord should come , lest he should want me : so i left them , and went to the room where my lord was to dine ; and when i went to my lord i left him betting . about of the clock the lords and gentlemen all went to dinner ( that were there ) and when we had half dined , betwixt two and three , dugdale came in , and we ask'd him how the wagers went ? he said he would bet gold to silver if he had it , but he had betted away all his money . i know not how much . so there was a gentleman that was servant to my lord aston , one george hobson by name , he lent him two guineys and odd money , and i lent him some forty or fifty shillings out of my own pocket , which i told him i would not lend unless he would give it me at the hill again , before the race began , because i was fearful my lord should go to stafford again , from my lord aston's that night . about or a clock i went up to the race , and demanded my money , and he paid it me before the race begun , and after the race was done i lost him . my lord went home , and i waited on him . this was about or , and about the mid-way towards my lord aston's house he went into the coach , and i got on horseback , and we got home about or of the clock as i suppose . but at night after supper i enquired for dugdale , how he took his loosings , and how he did after it ? they told me he was gone to bed , so i saw him no more that night . the next morning my lord bid me come betimes , for he would go to stafford that morning , where we dined , at mr. abden's , and from thence took our way to go to my lords own house . l. stafford . now , my lords , if you please to ask this boy , whether i bid him go and call dugdale to me , and leave him there . l. h. stew. my lord stafford did bid you , mr. furnese , go and dress your self , and make you ready for the race , did you not leave dugdale behind you in the chamber when you went to dress your self ? furnese . no , my lord , dugdale was gone thence , and my lord was gone too , before me to my lord aston's l. h. steward . i still ask you the question , ( you are upon an obligation very great , as much as if you were upon your o●th ) whether you were in my lords chamber before dugdale came in , and staid till after he went out ? lord stafford . and whether i bid him go out or no ? lord high stew. were you there before dugdale went in ? furnese . he went along with me in , i conducted him in . lord high stew. did you stay all the while dugdale was there ? furnese . as near as i remember i staid there all the while . l. stafford . ask him positively , furnese . yes , my lords , i was there all the while dugdale staid , but i cannot say positively how long it was . l. h. steward . mr. dugdale , you are upon your oath , he says he came in along with you , and you went out of the chamber before him , and he was there all the while you were there . mr. dugdale . my lords , i am not positive which of my lord's servants it was that came for me , but one it was . but when i came into the chamber to my lord , my lord was getting up , and he charged them both to go sorth , and the room was clear , and i saw no body . l. stafford , my lords , ask my man. furnese . my lord never bid me go forth that day , nor any else in my life when any was in the room . mr. dugd. my lords , if it please your lordships , mr. furnese was pleased to say , i would bett gold to silver , but in that he was mistaken , for the odds was quite six to four against us . l. h. steward . well we are not upon the race now , or the wagers laid there . but , gentlemen of the house of commons will you ask this man any questions ? sir will. jones . no , my lords , we have none to ask . sir tho. lee. we desire to know where he lives now , what country-man he is , and what religion he is of ? l. h. stew. whom do you serve now ? furnese . my lord stafford . l. h. stew. do you live with him still ? furnese . yes , i do , and have done this fourteen years . l. h. stew. what country-man are you ? furnese . a dutch-man . l. h. stew. where born ? furnese . at brussels . sir franc. winn. we would ask him what perswasion or religion he is of . l. h. stew. you may be sure of what answer you shall have . furnese . i am a roman catholick . l. stafford . that is as good as a jew . mr. treby . the question is not intended for any harm , not with any purpose to criminate him , 't is only in regard of his credit in this matter . l. h. stew. call another witness , my lord. l. stafford . where is george leigh ? ( who stood up ) l. h. stew. how old are you ? leigh . i am about fifteen or sixteen . l. stafford . my lords , i believe he is eighteen or nineteen . mr. treby . whose servant is he ? l. stafford . he is my servant , he hath served me seven or eight years . l. h. stew. what does your lordship call him for ? l. stafford , to tell you , whether i bid my servants to go out when dugdale came in , and whether ever he saw dugdale and i alone . l. h. stew. george leigh , how long have you lived with my lord stafford ? leigh . seven years the . of june last . l. h. stew. why then you were but nine years old when you came to him ? leigh . no , my lords , i think i was not . l. high stew. do you remember when my lord stafford was at tixall ? leigh . i do not remember the month very well . l. h. stew. do you remember the time of the race at etching-hill ? leigh . i do not remember the day , but i was at it . l. h. stew. did mr. dugdale come into your lords chamber that morning ? leigh . i do not remember he was there that very morning . l. stafford . be pleased to ask him , whether ever i bid him go out of my chamber when dugdale was there . l. h. steward . did you ever see dugdale any other morning in your lords chamber ? leigh . my lords , i think not , i am not certain , he was there one morning and it was about a race , but i am not certain what race it was , whether it was two boys ran or two men. l. h. steward . did your lord bid you go out of his chamber ? leigh . no , my lords . l. stafford . dugdale says , i often sent him for him , pray ask him that question . l. h. stew. my lord , this boy does not remember that dugdale at all was at your chamber that time of the race at etching-hill ; so that it is not material to the thing in question . l. stafford . yes , my lords , dugdale told your lordships yesterday , that i sent this boy often for him . l. h. stew. did ever this boy come for you ? mr. dugdale . yes , he hath i am sure come to my chamber for me to go to my lord. l. h. stew. were you sent for by my lord more than once ? mr. dugdale . yes , several times . l. h. stew. before or after the race ? mr. dugdale . both before the race and after the race . l. h. stew. by whom were you sent for ? mr. dugdale . sometimes by the gentleman that was last examined , and sometimes by this boy . l. h. stew. did you ever come from my lord stafford to bid dugdale come to him ? leigh . my lords , i do not remember that ever i did . l. h. stew. 't is an hard thing to remember so long . l. stafford , if ever he came once to me , and was alone with me , i will be content to acknowledge all this to be true . pray ask the other man , if ever i sent him for him . l. h. stew. he did testifie before , that he came with him that day to your lordships chamber . l. stafford . that day , my lords , but he says other days i sent for him . l. h. stew. call furnese again . ( who stood up . ) furnese , did my lord stafford ever send you for dugdale , either before or after the race ? furnese . never , my lords , to his chamber . lord high stew. did he ever in his life send you to mr. dugdale to speak with him as you remember ? furnese . never , my lords . l. stafford . he was , my lords , such a fellow i could not endure he should come near me , such an impudent lying fellow . l. h. stew. have you any more witnesses , my lord. l. stafford . yes , a great many . l. h. stew. call them all , i pray . lord stafford . my lords , i hope you think i would not be so great and impudent a fool to employ such a fellow as this , who not long after run away from my lord aston's . l. h. steward . who did ? lord stafford . stephen dugdale . and for that , if you please , i would call some witnesses . l. h. stew. call furnese again . ( who stood up . ) did you ever see dugdale and my lord stafford together ? furnese . never in my life . l. h. stew. why , you saw them together that morning you brought him to the chamber . [ then the auditory laughed . furnese . never alone . l. stafford . i did not think i was in a cock-pitt , or a play-house . but if your lordships please to let me call my witnesses to prove , that dugdale ran away from my lord aston , i shall call for that thomas sawyer . ( who stood up . ) l. h. stew. what is your name ? witness . sawyer . l. h. stew. your christian name ? witness . thomas . l. h. stew. who do you live withall ? sawyer . my lord aston . l. h. stew. where do you live ? sawyer . at tixall . l. h. stew. are you my lord aston's servant ? sawyer . yes . l. h. stew. how long have you been so ? sawyer . six years and ever since michaelmas . l. h. stew. what have you to say ? sawyer . as to dugdale's reputation , i have this to say , how that he went from my lord aston's for debt , and was taken by the watch at heywood . l. h. steward . when was that ? sawyer . the latter end of november or the beginning of december . l. h. steward . what year ? sawyer . ( . ) l. h. stew. then the family broke up . sawyer . and coming thither , and being taken by the watch , he was brought by the justices to tixall ; and after the justices had been with my lord , their resolution was , to carry him to the gaol . so coming to tixal where dugdale was , at an ale ▪ house , he desired me to go to my lord , and desire him that he would own him as his servant , for he was so much in debt that he should else be undone for ever . in the mean time mr. philips the parson of the town had been with my lord ( for dugdale had desired him to go to him also ) and he asking me whither i was going , said i , i am going to my lord , from dugdale , to desire him to own him as his servant , said he , i have been with my lord just now , and he said , he will not own him as his servant ; it was his own act and deed . so mr. philips and i came back to him , and told him . so he sat down in the chair , and then rose up again , and swore , he would be revenged of my lord aston if ever it lay in his power . lord high steward . you never heard him say , he would be revenged of my lord stafford , did you ? sawyer . no , of my lord aston . then another time , being at stafford , he owed me twenty nine pounds , and he was under the serjeants hands , and then he promised me from time to time he would pay me , and did not keep his word . this was three or four days before he begun to peach . he bid me come such a day , and he would pay me part of the money ; and when i came thither , he told me , it was reported , that he should be a peacher ; and that there was a speech , how that he should have two hundred pounds for informing , that there were fourteen priests in the country ; but he takes a glass of drink , and thomas , says he , by god , i wish this may be my damnation and my poison , if i know of any plot , or any priests . l. h. steward . was not he a papist then ? sawyer . i cannot absolutely tell that , whether he was or no. l. h. steward . do you know one father evers ? sawyer . my lords , i have seen him . lord high steward . hath he never been at tixal ? sawyer . yes my lords , i have seen him there . l. h. stew. and have not you seen dugdale in his company ? sawyer . yes i have . l. h. stew. did not you at tixal think dugdale a stout able fellow ? sawyer . no , he never was accounted to be so . l. h. stew. then i ask you , if you thought him an honest man , or a rich man ? sawyer . no , my lords ; for i 'll tell you more than that , my lord aston employed him to be his bayliff , and receive his rents , and to pay workmen their wages , which he received every saturday ; aud my lord aston did accompt with him , where he did set his hand to receive the poor workmens wages according to their bills , when they had not been paid some of them whole years , and half years , and quarters . and they came and cryed to my lord , that they were not paid ; and thereupon dugdale did say , that one of them had demanded more of my lord than was his due ; for he said he had reckoned such a day with him , and paid him so much money ; which man said he was not that day at tixal , and so he hindred him of part of his money . l. h. stew. did you ever know that dugdale did forswear himself ? sawyer . that i do not know , my lords . i did hear he was concern'd in a race , about which there was a tryal and a dispute which had won . ( this ● have heard by report . ) sir fr. winn. speak your own knowledge , not reports . l. h. stew. i ask you ; do you remember the day when my lord stafford came to tixal ? sawyer . he came on the . day of the month . l. h. stew. what , september ? sawyer . yes , the . of september . l. h. stew. did you ever see dugdale in the company of my lord stafford , while he was at tixal ? sawyer . no , never in the house , but at the race , he hath come into the parlour . mr. treby . you had discourse with dugdale ; you say he took a glass and drank , and wished it might be his poyson . was not father evers that time at my lord aston's ? sawyer . not as i know of , my lords . mr. treby . was he not commonly there ? sawyer . yes . mr. treby . if he were , mr. dugdale must know it ; and how then could he take a glass and wish it were poyson if he knew where any priest was , since it was apparent he knew where that priest was ? 't is most improbable mr. dugdale should say thus ! sawyer , my lords , this was three or four days e're he confessed any thing he knew of his knowledge . mr. treby . what perswasion of religion are you ? sawyer . of the church of england . mr. serj. maynard . pray , my lords , ask him one question ; he says dugdale went away from my lord aston's : was not there a speech of a plot ( at that time ) that was discovered ? sawyer . yes , that i heard . sir fr. winn. my lords ▪ i would ask him one question more : was there no discourse of the death of a justice of peace that was said to be killed in london about that time ? sawyer . to my best remembrance , as i heard , there was . mr. dugdale . my lords , if your lordships please that i should call witnesses to confront him now , or afterwards ? sir will. jones . not now ; stay till your time comes . l. stafford . then call philips . ( who stood up . ) l. h. stew ▪ what is your name , sir ? witness . ralph philips . l. h. stew. what are you , a clergy-man ? mr. philips . yes . l. h. stew. are you beneficed ? mr. philips . yes , my lord. l. h. stew. where ? mr. philips . at tixal , my lord. l. h. stew. you are a person that knows the obligation that lies upon you to give a true testimony ; what can you say of mr. dugdale ? mr. philips . my lords , i have very little to say concerning stephen dugdale as to any thing of the plot , but in reference to what he should relate concerning mr. sambidge and me in the narrative which he deposed upon the tryal of sir george wakeman : he said then he did receive a letter concerning the death of sir edmundbury godfrey , which was dated the . of october , as i remember ; and that he did communicate the letter to mr. sambidge and me immediately the next tuesday : whereas i will assure you , my lords , i never heard neither by letter nor word of mouth from him nor any other , till it was publickly known . l. h. stew. you did not live in my lord aston's house , did you ? mr. philips . no , my lords . sir will. jones . we know not what he says ; we desire to understand what he means . l. h. stew. he takes notice that dugdale at the tryal of sir george wakeman did depose touching a letter dated the . of october , which should come down to tixal , intimating the death of sir edmnndbury godfrey , and that he did communicate that with the parson of tixal and another ; which parson comes now to say , he did communicate no such a matter to him . sir vvill. jones . we desire to ask him whether he was present at that tryal , and heard him say so ? mr. philips . i was not present at the tryal ; but if the narrative of the tryal be truth , he did say so . l. h. stew. so then you only come to disprove what is printed that dugdale should say . mr. philips . then i leave it to your judgments , whether what he said in the narrative of that tryal , do concur with the truth . l. stafford . i desire then to ask him whether stephen dugdale did not run away from my lord aston's , and would have him go to my lord to own him for his servant . l. h. steward . what do you know of dugdale's running away ? mr. philips . i know nothing at all of that , my lords . l. stafford . whether he did speak to him for his servant when he was in the justices hands . l. h. stew. can you say any thing touching the credit of dugdale ? mr. philips . i have nothing to say concerning dugdale's credit . l. h. stew. did you know him ? mr. philips . yes , ever since i came to tixal ? l. h. stew. how long is that ? mr. philips . about fourteen years . l. h. stew. what reputation had he in the country ? was he looked upon as one that would perjure himself ? mr. philips . i never knew any thing of that . lord high steward . was he thought a stout man ? mr. philips . he was in good repute with some , and indifferent with others . l. h. stew. will you call any more witnesses , my lord ? l. stafford . i would only ask him one question ; whether he did go to my lord aston from dugdale , to know if he would own him for his servant ? lord high steward . what say you , sir , did you ? mr. philips . yes , my lords , he knows very well i did ; he did request me to go to him . my lord aston i was loth to go to , because i had no familiarity with him , nor interest in him ; but he did request and urge me so much , that i did go by much motives and persuasions from him , and i did speak to my lord ; so i told him the message i had was from mr. dugdale , who would request of my lord that he would own him for his servant ; for if he did not , he knew not what to do with himself : but if he did , he might be free from the gaol and from the oaths , and escape the troubles that were upon him . so my lord replyed to me , 't is his own act and deed , and i have nothing to do with him , and let the justices do what they will with him ; which were sir walter bagott and mr. kinnersley . mr. foley . we desire to know whether he heard any discourse about a plot at that time , or no. mr. philips . truly , my lords , i heard a talk of a plot , but not at that time . mr. foley . my lords , i desire to know if he took mr. dugdale for a person that might be in the plot , if there was any such thing . mr. philips . i cannot tell how to answer that , 't is an hard question ; i am not so intimately acquainted with persons whose secrets are not reposed in me . l. staff. the next witness i desire may be ( with the leave of the gentlemen of the house of commons ) sir walter bagott , i did desire him to be here . sir will. jones . there he is , we do not oppose it . l. h. stew. is it your lordships pleasure that sir walter bagott be heard in his place ? lords . yes . sir walter bagott . l. h. stew. what would you ask sir walter , my lord ? l. staff. my lords , i desire to ask sir walter bagott , whether he did not apprehend dugdale , and upon what account it was ? l. h. stew. sir walter bagott , my lord desires to know of you , whether you did apprehend dugdale , and upon what account ? sir walter bagott . my lords , mr. dugdale was taken at an unseasonable time of night and brought to me the next morning by the watch , as the other witnesses have told your lordships , and i took him away to stafford , where there were several other justices of the peace ; there we offered him the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , which he took . after the taking of these oaths , we told him , that he was a likely man to know something of the plot , and it was a very proper time for him to discover it to us that were justices : he at that time did deny the knowledge of it , that is all i can say . lord stafford . i desire sir walter bagott may be asked whether he did not go to my lord aston , to see whether he would own dugdale as his servant . l. h. stew. did you ask my lord aston to own him for his servant . sir walt. bag. yes , i did : for my lords house being in the way to stafford , whither i was going , i called upon him to know if mr. dugdale were his servant : he told me he was no servant of his , and he would not receive him : upon which i and another justice of the peace that was with me , took him to stafford . the occasion of our meeting there , was to summon in the militia , upon an alarm of the papists being risen in derbyshire . l. stafford . i make this use of it , my lords , that my lord aston would not receive him : and if my lord aston had known he had been in the plot , and could have discovered him , he would not have disobliged him . l. h. stew. nay , he says more then that , which you don't hear , he says when they examined him , they gave him the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , and then told him he would do well to discover his knowledge of the plot ? and then he did not own any thing he knew ? nay , he denyed it . mr. foley . did he deny the knowing of it . sir walter bagott . yes , he did then . sir fran. win. he was not resolved to discover at that time . mr. serj. maynard . we desire sir walter bagott may be asked whether he examined him upon his oath or no. sir walter bagott . no , i did not . mr serj. mayn . but had they then just given him the oaths of allegiance and supremacy ? sir walter bagott . yes , my lords , we gave him those oaths , and those only . l. stafford . then mr. kinnersley , if you please , ( who stood up ) be pleased to ask this worthy gentleman what he knows about dugdales going from my lord aston . l. h. stew. first let us know this gentleman . l. stafford . his name is kinnersley . mr. kinnersley . what questions would your lordship ask me ? l. stafford . what you know about dugdales going from my lord aston . l. h. stew. mr. kinnersley , we must know your christian name . mr. kinnersley . thomas . l. h. stew. do you know mr. dugdale ? mr. kinnersley . my lords , i was not acquainted with mr. dugdale , till sir brian broughton , sir walter bagott , and i and others gave him the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , the latter end of november , or the beginning of december ; i did not take notice exactly of the time . l. h. stew. what year ? mr. kinnersley . ( ) l. h. stew. well , sir , go on . mr. kinnersley . when he had taken the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , i asked him if he knew any treason or conspiracy against the king , telling him it was a seasonable time to declare it . he told me he knew of none . this is all i know , and all the discourse that i remember we had with mr. dugdale . mr. serj. maynard . pray why did you ask him that question ? mr. kinnersley . the plot was then newly broken out . mr. serj. maynard . why did you ask him so particularly ? mr. treby . why did you think mr. dugdale concerned in it ? mr. kinnersley . because we heard he was a papist , and my lord aston's servant . l. staff. then i desire sir thomas whitegrave may be examined . ( who stood up . ) l. h. stew. what say you to sir tho. whitegrave , my lord ? l. staff. will your lordships please to ask sir tho. whitegrave , whether he did not examine dugdale about the plot , and what he said at that time ? sir tho. whitegrave . my lords i came to stafford the latter end of november , or the beginning of december , i am not certain which , but i think it was this time two years . the deputy-lieutenants met about the militia of the county . they told me that mr. dugdale was in town , and was under an arrest : the occasion of his coming to town , was his refusal of the oaths of allegiance and supremacy ▪ which he had since taken . i proposed to them the sending for him , for i thought this was a fit opportunity to get something of him about the plot. they seemed to approve of what i said ; but withal , i told them it was not good to send for him till the evening late , that the people of the town might not take notice of his coming . at night we did send for him , and the gentlemen desired that i would examine him at the end of the table : so i called him up , and told him , i was sorry he was fallen into that misfortune to be arrested , and that mr. mayor had not dealt well with him or us to take that advantage of him : that now he had taken the oaths , i looked upon him as one of us , and would do him any kindness i could . he said , truly for his part , he was born a protestant , and of protestant parents ; and it was his misfortune to fall into the houses of papists , but he never liked their religion . i then told him , sir you may do your self a kindness , serve god and oblige your king and country : i am very confident you know of this horrid plot ; pray do not stifle your conscience with any oath of secrecy , but let it come out . many i told him , strained their consciences to serve their interests , but you may clear your conscience , and at the same time promote your true interest . he replyed , as he hoped to be saved he knew nothing of it . and this is as much as i know of the matter . l. h. stew. do you ask him any question , gentlemen ? managers . no , my lord. l. staff. my lords , i shall humbly move your lordships now , that you will please to take notice , this fellow , dugdale , hath endeavoured to perswade people to swear against me falsly , and offered them money for it . in order to the proof of which , i desire your lordships would call john morrall , samuel holt , and william robinson . then robinson stood up . l. staff. this man i never saw before in my life . l. h. stew. what is your name ? witness . robinson . l. h. stew. what is your christian name ? robinson . william . l. h. stew. where do you live ? robinson . in worcestershire now . lord h. stew. with whom ? robinson . with my self now . l. h. stew. do you know dugdale ? sir fr. winn. we desire he may give you an account what profession he is of . robinson . an upholster . sir fr. winn. how long he hath lived in worcestershire , and in what place there ? robinson . i have lived half a year in worcestershire half a mile beyond worcester . sir franc. win. and whether he follows that trade or profession now or no ? robinson . no , i do not follow it now . sir fr. winn. what do you live upon , and how ? robinson . i live of my self now . l. h. stew. how is that ? robinson . of my own money . mr. hambden . we desire to know whether this man was a servant to my lady gerard or no. robinson never . mr. hambden or to my lord gerard of gerards bromley . robinson . never , not an hired servant , my lords . mr. foley . were you a volunteer servant , or what were you ? mr. treby . did you work at any time there for my lord or lady gerard ? robinson . no. l. h. stew. how came you to live there ? robinson . i went over from a cocking out of cheshire . l. h. stew. how long were you there ? robinson . three weeks or a month . l. h. stew. what was your employment there ? robinson . nothing at all , i followed no employment . mr. treby . what kind of servant were you then ? l. h. stew. come , do you know dugdale ? robinson . yes . l. h. stew. how long have you known him ? robinson . i have known him about five years . l. h. stew. what say you to him ? robinson . i say , i met mr. dugdale about midsummer was twelve-month in london , about charing-cross , and he carried me to the harp and ball , and gave me beer and mum , and such as the house did afford , and treated me , and asked me what made me so dejected and cast down . i told him i was not well , i was poorer than i used to be . he told me again , i should not want any money that he had ; and if i would please to be ruled by him , and do what he would have me , he would furnish me with money . and he took his handkerchief out of his pocket , and bid me , if i wanted , take money there . i took none , but told him , i would not meddle nor make with any thing that night . then he told me he could furnish me with money , and put me in a way to get money , if i would come in as an evidence against my lord stafford . l. stafford . be pleased to ask him , for i never saw the man before , nor heard of him till last week , what he should say against me , and whether he knew me or not ? l. h. stew. did he tell you what you should say against my lord stafford ? robinson . nothing at all , my lords . l. staff. did he say any thing or nothing ? or did he ask whether he knew me or not ? l. h. stew. did you tell him you knew my lord stafford ? robinson . no , if it please you , i told him i did not know him . l. h. stew. and after you said you did not know him , he offered you money to swear against him . did he ? robinson . yes , my lords , he did so , to come in as an evidence against him . l. staff. will your lordships please to ask how much money there was in the handkerchief ? l. h. stew. how much money was in the hankerchief ? robinson . i believe there might be eight , or nine , or ten pounds . l. h. stew. did he offer you all the money , or bid you take some ? robinson . he bid me take some . l. h. stew. did he make any agreement with you for what yon should take ? robinson . no , not at all , my lords . mr. foley . did he see dugdale any more , or was there an end of it then ? robinson no , i saw him no more . l. h. stew. will you ask him any more questions ? sir w. jones . we shall have occasion to speak of him ( we desire he would not go away ) when our time comes . ( then another witness stood up . ) l. h. stew. what is your name ? witness . john morrall . l. h. stew. what are you ? morrall . a barber . l. h. stew. where do you live ? morrall . at ridgley . l. h. stew. where is that ? morrall . in staffordshire , within six miles of stafford . l. h. stew. what do you ask him ? l. stafford . whether dugdale did not perswade him to swear against some of the lords in the tower ? l. h. stew. do you know dugdale ? morrall . yes , my lords , i have known him twelve or thirteen years . l. h. steward . what can you say against him ? morrall . my lords , this mr. dugdale , the . of august last was twelve-month , sent for me to the white horse in ridgley , and there when i came to him , he told me i knew as much of the plot as he . i told him i was innocent of the thing ; he swore god damn him , that i knew as much as he : then i told him , if he knew no more than i did , he knew no more than my lord mayor's great horse did . then he took me aside ; come , says he , you are a poor man , and live poorly ; i can put you in a way whereby you may live gallantly ; i will give you l. in hand , if so be you will do so and so , and l. more when the thing is done . l. h. stew. what do you mean by so and so ? morrall . to swear against mr. howard , sir james symons , and several other gentlemen of the country . l. h. stew. did he offer you any mony to swear against my lord stafford ? morrall . no , i did not hear him mention any thing of him . l. h. stew. but he offered you mony to swear against symons and howard ? morrall . yes , my lord ; and herbert aston my lord aston's kinsman . l. h. stew. what were you to swear ? morrall . that they were at such a meeting at mr. herbert aston's upon the conspiracy of the plot. l. h. stew. will you ask him any thing ? managers . no , set him by . then another witness stood up . l. h. steward . what is your name ? witness . samuel holt. l. h. stew. what profession are you ? l. stafford . pray , my lords , ask him whether dugdale would perswade him to swear that which he knew not . l. h. steward . what profession are you of ? holt. a protestant of the church of england . l. h. stew. what trade ? holt. a blacksmith . l. h. stew. where do you live ? holt. at tixal . l. h. stew. are you my lord aston's servant ? holt. no , my lords . l. h. stew. what say you ? holt. my lords , he sent a man and a horse for me to stafford to the star. — l. h. stew. who did ? holt. mr. dugdale did . and there i waited upon him a good while . at length he came and told me he must speak with me privately ; so he told me if i would swear that vvalter moor carried evers away , he would give me l. and he bid me not be afraid to swear for fear of my lord aston ; for he would hire me an horse and get me to london , and place me , that where i got one shilling i should g et five . l. h. stew. did you know evers holt. yes , my lords , i have seen him . l. h. stew. do you know when he went away from tixal ? holt. no , my lords . l. h. stew. what else can you say ? holt. nothing else , l. h. stew. will you ask him any questions , gentlemen ? managers . no. l. stafford . t' e next thing i go upon is , that stephen dugdale at the tryal of the five jesuits , swore , that he acquainted sambidge with the letter about the death of sir edmundbury godsrey the munday or tuesday after ; which mr. sambidge denies . and in order to that , i call mr. sambidge ; but if your lordships please , i shall first prove that h● swore it then . where is mr. lydcott ? ( who stood up . ) i desire to ask him whether dugdale did swear at the tryal of the five jesuits , that he acquainted mr. sambidge with the letter about the death of sir edmundbury godfrey . l. h. stew. you fellow . witness . my lord. l. h. stew. what is your name ? vvitness . john lydcott . l. h. stew. how do you live ? lydcott . i am a fellow of kings colledge in cambridge . l. h. stew. what do you come to say ? lydcott . i don't know , my lords ; what my lord will ask me . sir vvill. jones . my lords , before you enter into the examination of this man , we desire to ask him a question or two . mr serj. mayn . whose servant are you , or were you lately ? lydcott . i am fellow of kings colledge . mr. serj. maynard . but whom did you serve lately ? were you never secretary to a lord ? lydcott . yes , i was . mr. serj. mayn . to what lord ? lydcott . to my lord castlemain , sir. l. h. stew. what religion are you of ? lydcott . of the church of england , and always was ; nay i can't say always , for i was bred up a presbyterian : my father was a colonel under monk. l. stafford . mr. lydcott . i ask whether you did not hear mr. dugdale swear at the tryal of the five jesuits . mr. serj. mayn . i desire one favour , my lords ; my lord stafford asks questions to lead the witness ; pray let him ask his questions more generally . l. h. stew. you say you are a protestant . lydcott . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. when did you last receive the sacrament ? lydcott . when i was last at cambridge . — no not so ; for it is not above a year ago that i was there . l. h. stew. when then did you receive the sacrament ? lydcott . i do not exactly remember , my lords . l. h. stew. my lord , i would be glad to know what is the question your lordship calls him for , that your lordship may not ask the question but by me . l. stafford . my lords , i desire to know ( for my part i know not what his answer will be ) whether he did hear at the tryal of the five jesuits , dugdale swear he had communicated the news of sir edmundbury godfrey's death , which was on the saturday , on the tuesday after to any people , and to whom . l. h. stew. were you at the tryal of the five jesuits ? lydcott . yes , i was . l. h. stew. did you hear dugdale swear there , and give his testimony ? lydcott . yes , i did . l. h. stew. do you remember what dugdale swore then ? lydcott . very well . l. h. steward . what was it ? lydcott . my lords , mr. dugdale spoke of a letter that came down to my lord aston's on the munday , and he imparted it on the tuesday after , at an ale-house , to one mr. sambidge and mr. philips ; this was also at sir george wakeman's tryal , which i took notice of more particularly , because i had occasion to take some notes there . l. h. stew. what use do you make of this , my lord ? l. stafford . if that be allowed to be so , then i will call no more witnesses , otherwise i have more . l. h. stew. call them all . lord stafford ? then call mr. charles gifford . mr. serj. mayn . pray , my lords , give me leave to ask this young scholar one question before he goes ; by whose commendation or means did you come into that colledge ? lydcott . by election from eaton . mr. serj. mayn . who promoted you ? lydcott . one mr. doyley , now senior fellow of kings colledge ; it was his election . sir fran. winn. my lords , i would ask him one question . he says he went to take notes ; by whose direction did he go to take notes at sir george wakeman's tryal ? lydcott . it was for my own curiosity . l. h. stew. friend , 't is all one as if you were upon your oath , and as penal to you ; by whose direction did you go ? lydcott . it was partly my own curiosity , and partly to see what evidence was against my lord ; for my lord castlemain thought himself concerned as well as others , and therefore desired me to go . sir fr. winn. now it is out . sir w. jones . it was done like a secretary . l. h. steward . had you ever that curiosity before ? lydcott . yes , i 'll assure your lordships , i had a great curiosity to hear it . l. h. stew. were you at any other tryal ? lydcott . yes , at the five jesuits tryal , and langhorns . then another witness stood up . l. h. steward . what is your name ? witness . charles gifford . l. stafford . ask him whether he did not hear at the tryal of the five jesuits , or sir george wakeman , dugdale say , that he did communicate that letter to some people , i name not who , the tuesday after ? l. h. stew. were you at the tryal of the five jesuits ? gifford . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. did you take notes ? gifford . yes , my lords , i was summoned there as an evidence ; i had occasion of being there , both at the five jesuits tryal , and vvakemans and langhorns . l. h. stew. you took notes you say ? gifford . yes i did . l. h. stew. what do you remember that mr. dugdale did then swear ? gifford . i remember at the five jesuits tryals , he did swear he received a letter sent to evers which he intercepted , and it spoke of the death of a justice of peace ; and he returned answer to evers again , he would be hanged if it did not spoil the business . and he said farther , he could not hold , but went to an ale-house , and there he did impart it : but then he did say there was one that could testifie and make out what he said ; upon which , he called mr. chetwyn , who deposed much to the same purpose . and then at sir george vvakemans tryal he did positively declare , that he spoke of it at an alehouse to a minister , parson philips , and my lord aston's kinsman . l. h. steward . what is his name ? gifford . mr. sambidge . l. stafford . well , my lords , i have no more to say to him ; but i conceive by this 't is plain that dugdale did then say , he had communicated it to mr. philips and mr. sambidge . i shall call mr. sambidge to g ve you an account . mr. sambidge stood up . l. stafford . be pleased to ask him whether he did hear mr. dugdale say on the tuesday , that sir edmundbury godfrey was murdered the saturday before . l. h. stew. you hear the question ▪ answer it . mr. sambidge . who must i speak to ? l. stafford . he is very deaf and very old , my lords . then the black rod was sent to be near him , to put the question to him . black rod. what would you have h●m asked my lord ? lord stafford . whether mr. dugdale did tell him on the tuesday , that sir edmundbury godfrey was murdered the saturday before . black rod. did mr. dugdale tell you of the tuesday , that sir edmundbury godfrey was murdered the saturday before ? mr. sambidge . no , my lords , he never told me any such thing , i take it upon my salvation . i never heard it till friday or saturday he was found at bury hill . lord stafford . ask him if he were with dugdale at the alehouse the tuesday before . mr. sambidge . dugdale never spoke any such thing to me . l. h. stew. were not you with him at the alehouse ? mr. sambidge . no. l. h. stew. not on munday ? mr. sambidge . no. lord h. stew. nor on tuesday ? mr. sambidge . no. l. h. stew. nor wednesday ? mr. sambidge . not as i know of . sir w. jones . we shall prove he was . l. stafford . pray ask him what reputation dugdale hath in the country ? mr. sambidge . oh the wickedst man that ever lived upon the face of the earth ; i know great part of it my self , and a hundred and a hundred of people will say as much . l. h. stew. what religion are you of ? mr. sambidge . i was never a papist in my life , nor ever a phanatick . l. h. stew. what do you know of dugdale in particular that is ill ? mr. sambidge . yes , my lords , i 'll tell you , he was a very abusive man , especially to the clergy and most especially to mr. philips , with whom i boarded . my lord aston that is dead , came and told me of it . said i , you are misinformed , for this dugdale is a knave & a rogue , and all the countrey ring of him for his wickedness ; upon which he cites me into litchfield court for defaming him , and he entertains all the proctors , that i could not get one to put in my answer : but before the day came he discharged the court , and never appeared ; for we had that against him that he durst not appear . l. h. stew. what particulars do you know ? mr. sambidge . he said the clergy of england was a lewd clergy , and a pack of rogues . l. h. steward . gentlemen of the house of commons , will you ask him any question ? managers . no. l. h. stew. hath my lord no more to say to him ? l. staff. no , my lords . l. h. stew. my lord stafford , go on ; hath your lordship done with dugdale , or have you any more witnesses ? l. staff. no , my lords , i have a great deal more to say to him . l. h. stew. go on then . l. staff. my lords , i conceive by this , 't is proved to your lordships , that dugdale did at that tryal declare , he had acquainted mr. sambidge and mr. philips with the letter about the death of sir edmundbury godfrey , the tuesday after he was murdered . and i conceive i have proved to your lordships , by their denying it , that he did not tell them so ; and so he is forsworn in that . i should now have humbly desired your lordships , that you will please to call william day : but upon asking the question , i find he is not yet come to town , and so i shall not trouble your lordships with him , i desire that thomas sawyer may be called again . ( who stood up . ) l. stafford . pray be pleased to ask him , whether he did not hear dugdale wish he might be damned , if he knew any thing of the plot. l. h. stew. he said that before . l. stafford . then i beg your lordships pardon , i shall not call him again . l. h. stew. go on , my lord. l. stafford . my lords ▪ there are a great many other witnesses which i could call ; but it is to no purpose , and so i shall call no more as to dugdale . i conceive upon the whole matter , his reputation and credit are gone , for he is forsworn before the justices of peace , in that he said there was no plot , and wished he might be damned if he knew of any plot. i conceive 't is also proved , that upon the twentieth of september , when , he says , i did communicate with him about the kings death , he was only then with me upon his own desire , and my servants were by ; there was nothing discoursed of , but about the foot-race . and likewise as to what he swore in august , that i was at such a meeting at tixal , he is forsworn , for i was not there ; and so i hope that witness is laid aside , no creature will give any credit to him , neither your lordships , nor the house of commons . l. h. stew. have you done with mr. dugdale ? l. stafford . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. whom will you proceed against next ? l. stafford . dr. oats . l. h. stew. call dr. oats . l. stafford . only give me leave to say one thing , my lords , that you were pleased to say , i should have copies of the two depositions of the twenty fourth and twenty ninth of december . and i had one to inquire , but can't find that of the twenty ninth . then dr. oats stood up . l. h. stew. what say you to dr. oats , my lord ? lord stafford . this dr. oats ▪ if your lordships please , i desire may be asked when was the first time he ever saw me in his life . l. h. steward . when was the first time , dr oats , you saw my lord stafford ? dr. oats . my lords , the first time i saw this gentleman at the bar , was , as near as i remember , at mr. fenwicks . l. h. stew. that was in drury ▪ lane ? dr. oats . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. when was that ? dr. oats . that was , as near as i remember , in june ? l. h. stew. was it that time the commission you spoke of was delivered ? dr. oats . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. did you see that commission ? dr. oats . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. did you read it ? dr. oats . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. from whom was it ? dr. oats . i cannot be positive as to that ; but as near as i remember , it was signed as the rest was signed . l. h. stew. how was that ? dr. oats . johannes paulus oliva . l. h. stew. you read it ? dr. oats . yes i did , my lords . l. h. stew. it was a commission to be pay-master of the army , was it not ? dr. oats . yes , it was . l. h. stew. and it was delivered to my lord ? dr. oats . yes , it was . l. h. stew. by the name of mr. howard of effingham ? dr. oats . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. what says your lordship to this ? l. stafford . what is it possible for me to say against this ? i declare to your lordships in the presence of god , i never saw the man in my life ; i never went by any name , since i had the honour of being a peer , but by the name of stafford ; i never heard of mr. fenwick the jesuit , nor by the name thompson , till this plot was discovered , and he taken . this you may believe , or not , if you please ; but this is as true as i am alive . my lords , i desire i may have out of the journals the deposition on which i was committed . l. h. stew. turn to the journal . l. stafford . it was read , as i remember , friday . octob. ( . ) then the clerk turned to the journal , and read . die veneris . die octobris , . the lord viscount stafford acquainted the house , that he was informed that there was a warrant issued out from the lord chief justice of england to apprehend him ; which he thought fit to acquaint their lordships with , and submitted himself their lordships judgment . the lord chief justice ( being present ) was commanded to give the house an account of the business ; who said , that last night about nine of the clock he received a letter from the speaker of the house of commons , dated from the speakers chair , to come to the house of commons about business of great concernment . accordingly he attended the house of commons ; where the speaker told him , that the house of commons had receiv'd accusations of high treason against five lords and some gentlemen , and desired him to issue out his warrants for their apprehension . the persons were , the earl of powis , viscount stafford , the lord arundel of wardour , the lord petres , and the lord bellasis . and upon this he issued out his warrants for their apprehension , having taken the examination of titus oats upon oath . that the earl of powis and the lord arundel were brought to him this morning in custody , and he advised them to render themselves to the gatehouse , where now they are . upon this the examination of oats was read ; whereby it did appear , that the lord viscount stafford was charged to be in a conspiracy of treason against the king. the lord viscount stafford denyed the fact , and after this , withdrew . and after a while the house was informed that his lordship would render himself to the lord chief justice . l. h. stew. this is all that is in the journal . l. stafford . then my lords , if your lordships please to remember , all of you that were there , that i was accused by dr. oats , whose depositions i desire to see , taken before my lord chief justice , that he had seen letters of mine written to fenwick , harcourt , and some others , three or four jesuits , in which i was consenting to the plot , that i had sent my son to lisbon , yet i would be as kind to the jesuits as before , though there was some difference between us . these affidavits i desire to see , which as i take it were read before your lordships that day . l. h. stew. the affidavit was taken by my lord chief justice in the house of commons , where he did attend them upon their summons : i know not if the original were read in the house of lords or the copy ; but it seems it is not entred into the lords journal , but your lordship had an order to take copies of all things you would have demanded , and if you would not , i cannot tell what to say to it . l. stafford . truly i could not take a copy , because i did not know where it was . i desire my lord chief justice may be asked where it is , that is all i desire , and i will then go on . l. h. stew. i think dr. oats does say at this time , that he had seen letters of your lordships , offering your correspondence and assistance . l. stafford . if dr. oats will own he said no more than is in that affidavit , i am content . lord high steward . have you any copy of your own examination doctor oats ? dr. oats . yes , my lords , i think i have it here . l. h. stew. marry , that is very well , produce it then . do you oppose it gentlemen ? managers . no , we agree , we desire the truth may come out . then dr. oats looking amongst his papers drew out one , and offered it to the court. l. h. stew. is that a true copy of your first examination ? dr. oates . my lords , i will not swear it , but it was given me for a true copy . l. h. stew. by whom was it given you ? dr. oates . i can't remember now , 't is two years ago . sir w. jones . unless we know whence it comes , or what authority it hath , we cannot consent it should be read . l. h. steward . had you it from my lord cheif justice , or any servant of his ? dr. oates . i can't tell whether sir charles harbord gave it me or no. sir fr. winn. my lords , sir charles harbord might be of the committee of examinations , but the examination for which my lord asked was not in the committee nor before the house . my lord chief justice retired out of the house & virtute officii took it . now it was very fair in mr. oates to produce it , but yet in point of evidence , if he will not swear it to be a true copy , or give an account how he came by it , we cannot allow it to be read . l. h. stew. my lord stafford , 't is you that want this paper , you desire to have the benefit of the examination that was taken of mr. oates , and therefore you must produce a copy of it . lord stafford . my lords , i could never get it . l. h. stew. 't is not entred in our journal , nor is it to be traced , we know not where it is . you have had time enough to look after it . you are now offered by oates himself a copy that was given him for a true copy , though he can't swear by whom . are you content that shall be read , if the gentlemen will admit it ? lord stafford . by what i guess of dr. oates , ( i know him not ) he would not give in a copy of an examination unless it were true , if it be true i know not what should hinder the reading of it ; but as far as concerns me i desire it may be read . l. h. stew. you do consent , and will you gentlemen permit it ? mr. serjeant maynard . we do not know whence it comes , we can't admit it unless oates says 't is true . sir william jones . my lords , it hath been long in the doctors possession , he hath read it over , he can't say 't is a true copy , but i desire to ask him whether all in that writing be true ? and whether he did swear what is in that writing ? l. h. stew. if your lordships please thus , and you gentlemen of the house of commons : the best way to have an answer to this question is , that it may be read de bene esse . sir fran. winn. pray my lords , let him read it over to himself privately , and then let us know whether he can swear the same things that are in that paper . ( which dr. oates began to do . ) dr. oats . your lordships ask only as to my lord stafford ? l. h. stew. my lord desires no more , but pray read it over all , and give your answer to all ; for that question , may be , will be asked in other cases , and 't is fit you should be provided for it . ( which he did . ) l. h. stew. what say you doctor ? dr. oats . my lords , i do verily believe i did swear the contents of that paper . l. stafford . my lords , i do not oppose the reading of that paper , but i have here a copy of something in the journal , and do not stand upon my memory ; but i think upon the viewing of it now , there is something in the copies of the journal . clerks . we cannot find it . l. stafford . then read this paper . l. h. steward . will you have this copy of the examination read , or not ? l. stafford . yes , my lords . clerk. the examination of titus oats clerk , taken before us — l. h. stew. when was that ? clerk. the . of october . l. h. steward . that was read the . the next day in the house of lords . the examination of titus oats clerk , taken by us the . of october . this examinant saith , that in the month of may last , this examinant saw a patent under the seal of the father general of the society of jesus at rome , called johannes paulus oliva , at the chamber of mr. langhorn , wherein it was expressed , that by vertue of a breve from the pope , he did constitute the lord arundel of wardour lord high chancellor of england , which patent was sent to the lord arundel of wardour by a messenger , who was the son of mr. langhorn ; and this examinant saith , that he saw a letter subscribed by the lord arundell of wardour as he believes , wherein the lord arundel did acknowledge the receipt of the said patent , and accepted of the same , and promised to answer the expectation of the society . this examinant saith , that in june last he saw the like patent , wherein the lord powis was constituted lord treasurer of england , which patent was carried by one parsons secretary to the lord powis from one saunders house in wild-street to be delivered to the lord powis , and at the delivery of the patent , was paid by parsons to fenwick and ireland to carry on the design of the jesuits , which was to raise a rebellion in the three kingdoms and to destroy the king. in the month of july this examinant saw a letter subscribed powis , and directed to fenwick , wherein his lordship did acknowledge the receipt of the said patent , and did accept of the same , and said he had men and horse ready for the design , and that his lordship would venture his life and fortune in the affair . in the month of august last , this examinant saw a letter directed to mr. langhorn by the outside , but within to the society of the jesuits , wherein sir william godolphin acknowledged he had received the like patent to be lord privy seal , and had accepted thereof , and in july . this examinant saw the same in the hands of the archbishop of tuam , at madrid in spain . this examinant saith , that in july last mr. coleman ackowledged and confessed to fenwick in this examinants presence , that he had received the like patent to be secretary of state , and that it was a good exchange . this examinant saith , that in may , june , july and august last , this examinant saw several letters signed stafford , whereby it appeared that the lord stafford was in this conspiracy against his majesty , and that he had returned several sums of mony to the jesuits to carry on the design , the letters were directed to fenwick and ireland , and in august last this examinant saw another letter directed to the same persons signed stafford , wherein my lord writ , that although he had sent his son to lisbon , yet he would be ne'r the worse friend to the jesuits , and this examinant conceiveth the reason of that letter was , because there was then a difference between the english colledge at lisbon and the jesuits ; in july last this examinant saw in the hands of fenwick a commission directed to the lord bellasis from the person aforesaid , to be lord general of the army to be raised in england against his majesty , and in july this examinant saw a letter from my lord directed to fenwick , wherein his lordship acknowledged the receipt of the commission , and thanked the society for the same , and that he accepted the same , and would do what in him lay to answer their expectations . in may last this examminant saw a patent in the hands of mr. langhorn to make my lord petres lieutenant-general of the army , and in june last , this examinant did hear my lord petres in the presence of mr. longworth his confessor acknowledge the receipt of the same , and that he accepted thereof , and his confessor wished him much joy thereof . lord stafford . my lords , if this be owned for truth that he swore , then i proceed upon the evidence of that . l. h. stew. without allowing it to be a true copy , dr. oats at the bar does swear , what is said there is true . lord stafford . then he says there , he saw letters signed by me to fenwick and others , i do humbly desire to know whether that be evidence or no , that a man says he saw letters , and does not say he knew them to be my hand , nor what the letters were in particular , nothing that he did prove of it . i must appeal to your lordships , to all my lords , to my lord high steward , and the rest that were of the council at that time ; whether dr. oats did not positively name some , and left ne out at the council table ? and whether dr. oats did not say there was no lord concerned in the plot , and whether some of my lords did not say so , and told some other lords of it , from whom i had it ? and in order to this desire sir philip lloyd may be examined , and if he did not know of my being in it , then he hath since forsworn himself . l. h. stew. my lord , i know not where you are , nor what you are about , are you objecting against oats upon any evidence out of the journal ? lord stafford . my lords , i go upon this that hath been read . l. h. stew. pray my lord produce your witnesses that did hear him say any thing , and take your advantage of it . lord stafford . i call sir philip lloyd . l. h. stew. where is sir philip lloyd ? l. stafford . my lords , i do not know , i think he is here , i hope he will come . then he appeared amongst the members of the house of commons , and was called to the bar amongst the other witnesses , and stood up . l. h. stew. what does your lordship ask sir philip lloyd ? l. staff. whether he was not by when dr. oats was asked , if there were any lords concerned in the plot , and he said no ; and whether he did not tell me so a day or two before i was committed in the p●inces lodgings . l. h. stew. what say you sir philip ●loyd did you ever hear dr. oats deny upon his oath , that ever he heard of any lords that were concerned in the plot ? sir philip lloyd . my lords , truly i cannot remember any such thing . if my lord put me in mind of any particular circumstance or time , i may recollect it ; i must confess i think i have heard such a thing rumor'd , but i am so unfortunate i cannot remember any thing positively of it . l. stafford . he did tell me so i am sure . sir philip lloyd . truly , my lords , i would be glad to remember any thing to justifie the truth , but i can't remember this . l. stafford . but whether it were so or no , your lordships that were of the council can tell . l. h. steward . my lord , i do not know . your lordship cannot be refused if you press it , to ask any of the lords of the council , if they remember any such thing that did pass there ; but if i were there or in the council , i deal plainly with your lordship , i cannot say that there was any such thing said . l. stafford . if there be any here that were there besides , i desire they may be asked . l. h. stew. if your lordship will call upon any other of my lords that were there , they will tell you . lord stafford . i do not know who were there , i can't call them . l. h. stew. you may ask any of the lords of the council who were there that time dr. oats was examined . lord marquess of worcester . my lords , i was not at the council then , but i heard it , not there indeed , but as a general report abroad . l. stafford . i desire my lord privy seal may tell what he knows of it . lord privy seal . what is it your lordship would know of me ? l. stafford . whether oats did not say , he had no more to accuse ? lord privy seal . where my lord ? l. stafford . at the council table . lord privy seal . 't is a very hard thing for me to charge my memory with all the questions at an examination , we use to refer to the examinations themselves ; i have seen some examinations , i wish all were so , wherein the questions are put down as well as the answers , and i cannot charge my memory that he said , he had no more to accuse . l. staff. i desire then all the lords of the council that are here to say whether or no he was not asked this question particularly by my lord chancellor , ( and i desire particularly his lordship would say , whether he can't remember it ) whether he had any thing to say against some lords , and he answered , they were to know of it , but god forbid he should accuse them ! l. h. stew. when should that be ? l. stafford . my lords , i can't say the day , for i was not in town . but i desire to ask whether you did not ask him upon the first discovery of the plot , whether he had any thing to say against some lords ? l. h. stew. do you desire to know whether i asked him this question , if he had any thing to say against some lords ? l. stafford . i do not say positively your lordship , but whether that question was not asked him ? l. h. stew. certainly i should never ask any such question of any man alive . i might ask in general of any lord , but not of some . l. stafford . some or other lords it was . l. h. steward . i don't remember it , and 't is impossible for any man living to remember , what questions he did ask two or three years ago upon an examination . l. stafford . i desire i may have leave to ask the earl of berkley a question . l. h. steward . what is it you would ask him ? l. stafford . my lords , i humbly ask his lordship , whether he did not hear dr. oats say , after he had accused some persons before the council , that he had no more to accuse ? earl of berkley . my lords , i had the honour to be of the privy council about the time of the discovery of the plot , but i do not remember that i heard dr. oats say any such thing there . l. staff. or , in the house of lords , for i may mistake . and therefore i desire my lord of berkley would declare what he heard dr. oats say before the house of lords . earl of berkley . yes , my lords ; in the lords house i will tell your lordships what i remember . my lord chancellor , to the best of my remembrance , did ask dr. oats at the bar of the house , this question — my lords desire to know if you can accuse any other person or persons of what quality soever , and you are incouraged by their lordships to accuse them : his answer was — my lords , i have no more to accuse in relation to england , but in relation to ireland , i have . l. h. steward . that was after he had accused your lordship , my lord stafford . sir w. jones . we pray , my lords , we may have the favour to ask that very honourable lord , at what time dr. oats said this , for the satisfaction of those that are present . earl of berkley . my lords , it was after dr. oats had accused my lord stafford , but before he had accused the queen . l. stafford . i beseech you , my lords , to mark it ( and i am very glad of it ) he said he had no more to accuse in relation to england , and yet after that he accused the queen . l. h. stew. my lord , then the best account of it will be on the journal , the question and answer is entred there . die jovis . die octobr. . post meridiem . titus oats being at the bar , is directed to proceed in giving an account of the commissions given to several lords , and other persons for offices civil and military . upon which he proceeded in a particular narrative thereof , with some circumstances tending to make out the truth thereof , and then was commanded to withdraw , but stay without . then upon consideration had hereof , the lord chancellor by directions of the house caused him to be called in again , and told him , that the lords expect not his entring into particular circumstances , but if there be particular persons concerned , of what quality soever they be , the house expected he should name them , but he named none but those he had mentioned in his narrative , nor could name no other person . lord stafford . then , my lords , he said , he knew no persons more than he he had discovered : and after , did he not accuse the queen and several others ? if he said true , then he knew no body more , if not , he is forsworn . sir vvill. jones . pray prove he did accuse the queen . l. stafford . he did so in the council , and he is clearly perjured in that , and so not to be believed . and i say besides , after that dr. oats had consulted with himself and possibly with some others what his narrative should be , and what he should accuse persons of , and did only accuse me of seeing some letters signed stafford , and now he comes to give evidence he knows more , of my having a commission : after this rate , it may be he may know a great deal more to morrow , when he hath invented it : and 't is a great sign he did not know of any more , if he did know of that ; for i never had any correspondence with the jesuits , nor any business transacted with them these twenty four or twenty five years . indeed at ghent the english jesuits were desired to do a little thing for me , and they refused it me : it was to send over a man that was to be a witness in a suit i had beyond sea. and i never writ one letter to a jesuit since , nor he to me that i know of , nor never had to do with them that i know of : i never heard of fenwicks name nor harcourts till i heard of the plot , nor of johnson nor thompson jesuits : and if any can prove it , i will acknowledge my self guilty of all that is said against me . and for that dr. oats at first said , he only saw letters of mine , and after comes and accuses me of a commission , i appeal to your lordships if there can be any truth or belief in him . i cannot say more than what i have said already , and i do challenge dr. oats at the day of judgment to say , if ever he saw me in his life till i was committed , or if i did ever go by any name , but that of stafford , i will be content to dye immediately . if i had gone by the name of howard i need not be ashamed of it , for 't is a name good enough to be owned . i know there is a worthy gentleman that bears the name of howard of effingham , but i never did . if your lordships please to let me ask mr. dugdale one question . l. h. stew. call dugdale again , ( who appeared . ) what say you to him my lord ? l. stafford . i desire to ask dugdale , whether he did not in his depositions before mr. lane and mr. vernon swear , that the th . of october , i offered him l. to kill the king ? mr. dugdale . no , september l. stafford . ay , september ? mr. dugdale . yes , i think i did make that deposition before captain lane. i am certain i did that , my lord stafford the th . or th . of september offered me l. l. stafford . then did not he say presently upon this he went to mr. evers chamber ? l. h. stew. he says so now . mr. dugdale . my lords , i am not certain it was the same day , it was assoon as i could have opportunity , it was presently after . lord stafford . did he not say he told erers what i said to him , and he did not understand the meaning of it ? mr. dugdale . i did say so to mr. evers , i did ask mr. evers what my lord stafford's meaning was , whether his intention was true or no to do as he said , and whether my lord was in that condition as to be able to perform his promise , for i feared payment of the mony , and he told me harcourt and the rest of the jesuits would furnish it . l. h. steward . so he said yesterday . l. staff. then ask him if he did not say , the beginning of september i met him at tixal , and i spake to him about such a business . mr. dugdale . my lords , i did say to the best of my remembrance it was about that time , the latter end of august or the beginning of september , i would not be positive , nor could not to five days . lord stafford . no i think not to . then i askt him this question whether he did not presently upon that , when i told him about the design , go to mr. evers , and ask what it meant . l. h. steward . he said so but now , he went to evers and asked what you meant . l. stafford . i beseech you i may be understood , whether he did not say in the beginning of september , which was before the . or . in the journal . l. h. stew. is it in the journal ? l. stafford . yes . l. h. stew. why then , read it . die sabbati . decembris , . the earl of essex acquainted the house , that he had received an information out of the countrey of very great concernment , which was read as followeth . staffordsh . december th , . the information of stephen dugdale gent. late servant to the lord aston of tixal , concerning the plot against our soveraign lord the king , as followeth . . this informant saith , that presently after one howard almoner to the queen went beyond the seas , he was told by george hobson ( servant to the said lord aston ) that there was a design then intended for the reformation of the government to the romish religion . . he informeth that in the beginning of september . he met in tixal , nigh the lord's gates , the lord stafford , who said to this informant it was said that they were troubled for that they could no say their prayers but in a hid manner , but suddenly there would be a reformation to the romish religion , and if there was but a good success they should enjoy their religion . and upon the th . day of september last , the said lord stafford told this informant that there was a design in hand , and if this informant would undertake the design , he should have a good reward , and make himself famous . . upon the aforesaid day immediately after , this informant went into the chamber of mr. francis urie alias evers ( a jesuit ) in tixal-hall , and asked him what the lord stafford meant by those words , and after he had made him to swear secresie upon his knees , he told him he might be a person imployed in the work , and have a good reward that would make him famous : and then he told him he must be instrumental with others in taking away the kings life ; and that it should be done by shooting or otherwise . and that this informant need not to fear , for the pope had excommunicated the king , and that all that were excommunicated by him were hereticks , and they might kill them and be canoniz'd for saints in so doing . . the informant saith , that the said evers and hobson both said , that the design was as well to kill the duke of monmouth as the king. . that george north ( nephew to pickering , and servant to the lord aston ) lately told this informant that they had taken his uncle ( meaning pickering ) and put him into newgate , and thought the king deserved such an execrable death as was intended him , because of his whoring and debauchery . . that mr. evers said mr. bennyfield had a packet of letters delivered to him from the post-house , which he feared the lord treasurer had notice of , and therefore he delivered them to the duke of york , and the duke delivered them to the king , and that the king gave them to the treasurer , after he had read them , but that the king did not believe them , and therefore it was happy , or else the plot had been discovered . . that he had received many packets of letters for evers , some of which this informant broke up , and found them to be , and tend to the establishing of the romish religion , &c. . that he had received several sums of mony himself , and knew of divers others that were imployed to put forth mony , which was and is for the jesuits use . stephen dugdale . taken upon oath the th . day of dcember , . before us . tho. lane , j. vernon . l. stafford . my lords , i find by this here , that presently after one howard almoner to the queen went over , george hobson servant to my lord aston told dugdale there was a design to reform the government , &c. i beseech your lordships i may ask him , how long after he went over , this discourse was . mr. dugdale . i do not say i knew george hobson before he came to be a servant to my lord aston , which was in the year ( . ) but that this was only a discourse to me , that the plot had been so long carrying on . l. stafford . he says upon his oath presently after the almoner went over , he told him so . now the almoner went over ; years before that , when the proclamation came out to banish the queens servants for being papists . mr. dugdale . i heard it there , i never knew george hobson before he came to be servant to my lord aston , but i did not tell it as a discourse at that time , or that it was more than what i had from him , that there was such a design so long before . lord stafford . he says presently after the almoner went over , in his oath , which was i think in the year ( . ) or ( . ) or rather in the year ( . ) about the end of the year ( . ) as i remember , and he says presently , three years after ; is that presently ? e'n now the end of august was the beginning of september , and how long that was we can't tell , and now three years is presently after . sir w. jones . he is telling of anothers discourse with him . l. h. stew. my lord , you must observe that dugdale says , that he did hear it from hobson after he came to my lord aston's service . lord stafford . but he says presently after the almoner went over , and 't is impossible , for he did not say it till three years after , and so there is no truth in him . mr. dugdale . my lords , it was that hobson told me that presently after the almoner howard went over , there was such a design carrying on . l. h. stew. you distinguish not , and therefore don't comprehend . 't is one thing if dugdale had said , that presently after there was such a design , hobson told him so . l. stafford . i beseech you , it is said , that presently after the almoner went over , hobson told him so . l. h. steward . but it is not that presently after he heard the discourse , but george hobson told him , that presently after the almoner went over , there was such a design . l. stafford . 't is said he was told presently after . then the information was read again . l. h. stew. do you know when howard the almoner went over ? mr. dugdale . no , my lords , but by report i heard when he went : but i do not make that part of my oath , for i cannot absolutely remember it . lord. high. steward . my lord , you must not make a strain to to make a mistake . lord stafford . gods life , is three years a strain ? mr. dugd. i never did mean so , nor never did intend so , for i never knew him till he came to my lord aston's , but he told me then this discourse . l. h. stew. my lord , this is only a question of grammar , how it can be construed . l. stafford . my lords , i beg your pardon : 't is to my little reason a question of sense , and it is plain to me it can have no other sense , but i submit it to your lordships , whether this be not the true construction . l. h. steward . go on , my lord , with your evidence , notice will be taken of your objection : you shall see what they say to it , if they do not give it an answer , it will have its weight . sir william jones . we will give that an answer in due time . l. stafford . then next he says , i talked with him at my lord aston's the beginning of september , where he met with me at tixal at the gate . and i said , it was sad we could not say our prayers , but in private . truely my lords , i cannot say , i did not say this to him ; but if i did say it , i do not remember it , or that ever i thought so much ; for i was so much of a contrary opinion , that i thought those of that religion said their prayers too openly , and have chid them for it . and why should i speak it to him whom i did not know what religion or what profession he might be of ? and presently after i spoke of these things , he says , he went to know what the design was , and then mr. evers told him of the plot , and yet yesterday he said he knew it sixteen years ago . how can all this be true ? and besides , it seems i could have no great power with him to persuade him , for it seems he mistrusted my ability to pay , and he had reason , for i should hardly have parted with l. in the condition i was then in to any one , but i have no more to say to him now . there is a third witness , one turbervill , i desire to ask him a question . l. h. stew. call turbervill , ( who stood up . ) lord stafford . i desire to know what time he came to serve my lady molineaux , ( for it is in the beginning of the information in the house of commons , that he came in the year . ) and how long he staid with her ? l. h. stew. my lord stafford , if your lordship please , there was an offer made to you , that those affidavits should be produced if you desired to see them . l. stafford . i think i shall have no occasion as yet , it may be i may by and by : but i desire to ask him this question first , whether he did not say he came in the year ( . ) into my lady mary molineaux her service , and staid with her about three years . l. h. stew. did he swear in the year ( . ( he came ? l. stafford . 't is so in his narrative in print . l. h. stew. do you own that narrative in print for true ? mr. turbervill . no my lords . l. h. stew. how can you challenge him then with a narrative he does not own ? l. stafford . then what can a man do if he must not go according to what is printed ? mr. turbervill . there is a mistake in the printing of it , there is a mistake of ( . ) for ( . ) l. stafford . i now desire that affidavit may be produced . l. h. steward . pray let him have the benefit that was offered him of the affidavit . mr. turbervill . besides , i declared i could not be positive to a year , i own any thing else in it . l. stafford . then my lords , if i shall have fellows that will not swear to months nor to years , i beg of your lordships to know whether these be legal witnesses . managers . the affidavit is in the custody of sir william poulteney a member of our house . sir will. poulteney . my lords , i have the affidavit , if you please i shall give you an account what i did upon it , and sir thomas stringer another justice of peace . my lords , after that mr. turbervill had given his evidence to the house of commons vivavoce , he tendred to them this information that i have in my hand , the house of commons after it had been read thought it might be convenient to have it sworn to before two justices of peace . whereupon sir thomas stringer and my self withdrew into the speakers chamber , mr. turbervill came to us , we read over the information to him again , and after we had read it over it was signed and he swore it . in this information when we then took it he declared there , that he came to my lord powis in the year , and came into england . after we had sworn him , we carried this information into the house again . the next morning , my lords , he came to me , ( i being one of the justices that had sworn him ) and told me that searching among his papers the last night for a letter , which he had said he had received from my lord stafford sent to diep , though he could not find the letter he looked for , yet he found that the precise time that he went to live with my lord powis was , and the precise time of his coming into england was . and he desired me to acquaint the house of commons with it , that this circumstance of time might be altered . whereupon my lords , i did acquaint the house of commons with it , how he was mistaken in that point of a circumstance of time , and that he came of his own accord and desired me to move the house in it ; i moved the house , and they did direct we should withdraw again , and take his information again , and that he should amend it , he amended it , and made the ( ) ( ) and the ( ) ( ) and then afterwards we swore him to it again de novo , and this is the matter of fact concerning the affidavit . l. h. stew. sir william poultney , did mr. turbervill correct the mistake himself first , or was it found and altered by others ? sir william poultney . my lords , he came to me , for i did not know any thing of it that he was mistaken , but he came to me the next morning assoon as ever i came to the house , before indeed i entred into the house and told me of the mistake and told me the reasons how he came to recollect himself , and find out the mistake . l. h. stew. mr. turbervill i would ask you the question , how came you to be informed that you had mistaken your self . mr. turbervill . my lords , i 'll tell you , i was searching for a letter which i received from my lord stafford , and missing that , i found my discharge i had from the french army , wherein i saw my mistake as to the time , and that i have to produce . l. h. stew. i ask you again , by the oath you have taken , did you correct it of your self , or by information from any other ? mr. turbervill . by the oath i have taken i did correct it of my self , and no body moved it to me . mr. serj. mayn . it was but a circumstance of time . sir fran. winn. and corrected by himself the very next morning my lords . l. stafford . he does acknowledge he did forswear himself once , and did make himself an honest man the next day , when he was a perjured villain the day before . and now he tells your lordships that he was searching for a letter that i sent to him , but he cannot find it . mr. turbervill . no , my lords , i thought i had it , but i cannot find it . l. stafford . no i 'le swear thou canst not . but then he does say that he had a discharge from the french army . mr. turbervill . yes 't is here my lord. l. h. stew. is that the paper of your discharge ? mr. turbervill . yes , it is . 't is worn out a little and torn , but the seal is preserved , i did not know that ever i should have occasion to make use of it , but my lord challenging me for a coward , and a deserter of my colours — l. stafford . i say so still , for i have heard so . l. h. stew. your honour is not in question , mr. turbervill . mr. turbervill . the title is a little torn , and if your lordships please i will read it ( which he did being in french , and is rendred in english in these words . ) this certifieth to all to whom it shall appertain , that i have given an absolute discharge to the sieur turbervill a cavalier of my company , after having served the space of six months with all honour and fidelity . therefore i desire those that are to be desired , to treat him civilly , and let him pass and re-pass without doing him any injury or giving him any hindrance ; but on the contrary to afford him all aid and assistance where it shall be necessary , promising the like upon all occasions that shall require it . in confirmation of which i have for him signed this present discharge , and thereto put the seal of my arms to serve him in case he shall need it . made at the camp before air this . of august , . sheldon . l. h. steward . what is the date of that discharge turbervill ? mr. turbervill . 't is in august ( . ) l. stafford . may i see it , my lords ? l. h. stew. yes , deliver it to my lord , ( which was done , and he looked upon it . ) l. stafford . the thing looks like truth , but there is no proof of it . mr. turbervill . the seal is a little broke , but the name remains perfect . l. stafford . he says here is a dismission from the army in ( . ) how will that rectifie this mistake about ( . ) i understand not that . then the court called for the paper , and it was looked upon by the duke of monmouth and some other lords . l. h. stew. my lord , this paper hath been looked upon , the hand is well known by those that should know it . l. stafford . i do not say the contrary . l. h. stew. whereabouts are you now my lord then ? l. stafford . i am extreamly faint and weary , that i am sure of . this gentleman told you yesterday , that he spoke with me several times in france , and that he was conversant with me for a fortnight together , that he visited me , and i proposed the killing of the king to him , and that he refused to give me an answer then , but told me he would give it me at diep ; this he said yesterday , as i remember : and afterwards when he was gone down , he came up again , and desired to put your lordships in mind of a particular circumstance which he said he did remember , that when he came to me i had the gout , and was in a lower room of the house , in such a street which faced luxenburgh house , all which i stand not upon : and that the prince of conde lived in the same street ▪ on the left hand he said first , and after on the right hand , and after he knew not where , and that i did lodge in the same street . mr. turbervill . i did say i believed the prince of conde lived there , but was not positive . l. stafford . no , but first he swears a thing , and then only believes it . be pleased to call my servants , to know if ever i had my foot ill of the gout in my life . mr. turbervill . your lordship told me it was the gout . lord stafford . if ever i put my foot on a stool , or was lame there , i will own all that he says . but when a man swears his evidence , and goes down from the place , and then invents and comes up again to tell new stories , who shall believe such a man ? mr. turbervill . i never went from the bar. lord stafford . i do say , y●● went down and had given all your evidence , and came up again and told this circumstance : i have not been lame not one moment these forty years , and yet this fellow , this impudent fellow , to say , that i was lame and put my foot on a stool . he does not , my lords , swear positively in any thing but this , and this i can easily disprove in him . l. h. steward . what say you to this particular , turbervill ? had my lord stafford never the gout while he was in france ? mr. turbervill . he told me it was the gout , my lords : he had a great lameness , he could not go from one place to another : here are several people to give testimony , that my lord was lame within less time than he says . mr. foley . hold , hold turbervill , you must not give that evidence now . l. stafford . call nicholas furnese again . l. h. steward . what do you call him for ? l. stafford . ask whether ever he saw mr. turbervill with me in france ? l. h. stew. were you with my lord stafford all the while he was in france ? furnese . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. did you never see turbervill there ? furnese . no. l. h. stew. pray did you never see father anthony turbervill there ? furnese . no , my lords , i never heard of his name . l. stafford . was i ever one moment lame while i was in france ? furnese . not , that i remember . l. h. stew. how long was my lord there ? furnese . about three months . l. h. stew. what time of the year ? furnese . at paris in october and november , in december at rohan , in january we came over into england . l. stafford . ask him if ever i put my foot upon a cushion , or upon a stool for lameness . lord. high. steward . mr. turbervill did you ever see furnese when you were in france . mr. turbervill . this man my lords . l ▪ h. stew. yes . mr. turbervill . no , not that i remember . l. h. stew. in what quality did you serve my lord in france , furnese ? furnese . my lords , i waited on him in his chamber . l. h. stew. do you remember any other servant of my lords , that you did see there ? mr. turbervill . truly , my lords , i don't remember , i might forget him . lord stafford . so i believe thou dost me too . mr. turbervill . your lordship , that could call me coward may say any thing . l. stafford . you shall be as valiant as hector , if you will. pray call my other boy . ( who stood up . ) l. h. stew. you little boy , were you all the while with my lord that he was in france ? leigh . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. did you ever see turbervill there ? leigh . no , my lords , not that i know of . l ▪ h. stew. had my lord the gout in france ? leigh . no nor never had since i have been with him . l. h. stew. that is six years . leigh . seven years almost my lords . l. h. stew. are you sure of that ? leigh . i am sure of it . l. stafford . now , my lords , mr. turbervill says i writ him a letter to diep , which letter he can't find . i beseech you what were the contents of the letter ? l. h. stew. what were the contents of the letter my lord sent you ? mr. turberv . the contents of the letter were that i should not stay at diep in expectation of him ; for he had appointed a yatcht to come to calice , but i should make what haste i could to london ▪ and there i should meet with him . l. stafford . i desire to ask whether i sent him word that count gramont came over with me ? mr. turbervill . yes , my lords , to the best of my remembrance . l. stafford . i shall now bring witnesses that i did not come by calice , but by diep , and count gramont came not with me . l. h. stew. mr. turbervill , which way came you , from diep , or from calice ? mr. turbervill . from diep , my lords . l. stafford . and i came from diep too . l. h. stew. my lord came that way too , he says . mr. turbervill . i know not of it , he sent me word otherwise . l. stafford . i shall now prove what i say , pray call mr. wyborne . ( vvho stood up . ) l. h. stew. what do you ask him , my lord ? l. stafford . whether he did not see me at diep , and embark from thence for england . mr. vvyborne . my lords , i ▪ will give you an account as well as i can . in the year ( . ) in december i had occasion to go over into france upon my own concerns ; and enquiring where there was a conveniency to go over , i heard that a yatcht was sending to diep for my lord stafford , and mr. henry sidney his majesties envoy extraordinary now in holland , i took that occasion , and we weighed anchor on friday the . of december ; and it being foul weather , and we being tossed long upon the sea , we did not come to an anchor before diep till sunday was sevennight , at two a clock in the afternoon , which was january . then i came with the captain immediately ashoar , to enquire for my lord and mr. sidney , i enquired for my lord , and they told me , he was at rohan , expecting to hear of the arrival of the yatcht ; upon which the captain desired me to write a letter to my lord , and i did so ; upon sight of which letter he came to diep on tuesday in the afternoon , which was as i take it , the . of january , and we were at the bastile there then together , when he came that evening ; and the next day i went on my own occasions to paris , and my lord and mr. sidney did come over together in the yatcht . l. stafford . if you please i will call my two servants again to this matter . lord. high. steward . call them , my lord. then furnese and leigh stood up . lord high steward . which way came my lord stafford out of france into england , by diep or by calice ? furnese . by diep . l. h. steward . what say you boy , which way came my lord ? leigh . by diep , my lords . l. h. steward . you came with him ? leigh . yes , we did . l. h. stew. my lord , the question is not whether you came by calice or no , but whether you writ a letter to him to diep that you would go by calice . lord stafford . he swore yesterday that i did come by calice . l. h. stew. do you say my lord came by calice ? mr. turbervill . my lords , i had a letter from his lordship , which he wrote to me , that he would come by calice . l. stafford . he did not name the letter yesterday , nor is 't in the information . l. h. stew. read the affidavit . the information of edward turbervill of skerr , in the county of glamorgan , gent. who saith , that being a younger brother about the year , he became gentleman usher to the lady mary molineaux , daughter to the earl of powis , and by that means lived in the house of the said earl about three years , and by serving and assisting at mass there , grew intimate with william morgan , confessor to the said earl and his family , who was a jesuit , and rector over all the jesuits in north-wales , shropshire , and staffordshire : and he , during the three years time , often heard the said morgan tell the said earl and his lady , that the kingdom was in a high fever , and that nothing but blood-letting could restore it to health ▪ and then the catholick religion would flourish . whereunto the said earl many times replied , it was not yet time , but he do●●ted not but such means should be used in due time , or words to that effect . and he heard the lady powis tell the said morgan , and others publickly and privately , that when religion should be restored in england , which she doubted not but would be in a very short time , she would persuade her husband to give l. per annum , for a foundation to maintain a nunnery ; and this informant was persuaded by the lady powis and the said morgan to become a fryar , the said lady en●ouraging this informant thereunto , by saying , that if he would follow his studies , and make himself capable , she questioned not but he might shortly be made a bishop by her interest in england , because upon restauration of the catholick religion , there would want people fit to make bishops , and to do the business of the church , and thereupon she gave this informant ten pounds to carry him to doway , where this informant entred the monastery , and continued about three weeks ; and with much difficulty made his escape thence , and returned for england ; for which the said earl and his lady , and all the rest that encouraged him to go to the monastery , became his utter enemies , threatning to take away his life , and to get his brother to disinherit him , which last is compassed against him . and father cudworth , who was than guardian of the fryars at doway , some days before his escape thence , told this informant , that if he should not persevere with them , he should lose his life and friends . and further added , that this king should not last long , and that his successor should be wholly for their purpose . and father cross , provincial of the fryars , told this informant , that had he been at doway when this informant made his escape thence , he should never have come to england : and this informant finding himself friendless , and in danger in england , went to paris , where one of his brothers is a benedictine monk , who persuaded this informant to return for england ; and in order thereunto , about the latter end of november . he was introduced into the acquaintance of the lord stafford , that he might go for england with his lordship , and three weeks he attended his lordship , and had great access and freedom with his lordship , who gave him great assurances of his favour and interest to restore him to his relations esteem again . and said , that he had a piece of service to propose to this informant , that would not only retrieve his reputation with his own relations , but also oblige both them and their party to make him happy as long he lived . and this informant being desirous to embrace so happy an opportunity , was very inquisitive after the means , but the said lord stafford being somewhat difficult to repose so great a trust as he was to communicate to him , exacted all the obligations and promises of secresie , which this informant gave his lordship in the most solemn manner he could invent : then his lordship laboured to make this informant sensible of all the advantages that would accrue to this informant , and the catholick cause , and then told this informant in direct terms , that he might make himself and the nation happy , by taking away the life of the king of england , who was a heretick , and consequently a rebel against god almighty . of which this informant desired his lordship to give him time to consider , and told his lordship that he would give him his answer at diep , where his lordship intended to ship for england , and to take this informant with him ; but this informant going before to diep , the lord stafford went with count gramont by calice , and sent this informant orders to go for england , and to attend his lordship at london , but this informant did not attend his lordship at london , but went into the french service , and so avoided the lord stafford's further importunities in that affair . and this informant further saith , that one remige a french woman , and vehement papist , who married this informants brother , lived with the lady powis all the time this informant resided there , and some years since , and was the great confident of the said lady ; and the said remige was for the most part taken with her ladyship into morgan's chamber when the consults were held there , where he hath often seen father gavan , father towers , father evans , father sylliard , roberts , white , owens , barry , and the earl of castlemain , and other priests and jesuits , meet and shut themselves up in the said morgan's chamber , sometimes for an hour , sometimes for two hours , more or less ; and at the breaking up of the said consults , have broke out into an extasie of joy , saying , they hoped ere long the catholick religion would be established in england , and that they did not doubt to bring about their design notwithstanding they had met with one great disappointment , which was the peace struck up with holland ; saying , that if the army at blackheath had been sent into holland to assist the french king , when he was with his army near amsterdam , holland had certainly been conquered , and then the french king would have been able to assist us with an army to establish religion in england . which expressions , with many others , importing their confidence to set up the romish religion , they frequently communicated to this informant . and the said morgan went several times into ireland , to london , and several other parts of england , as this informant hath just cause to believe , to give and take measures for carrying on the design , and the said remige and her husband having first clandestinely sold their estate , and fled into france about may or june last , for fear of discovery . this informant by many circumstances , being assured that the said mrs. remige was privy to all or most of the transactions of the plot. and he saith , that about may last was two years , he was present at mass with the lord powis in verestreet , when the earl of castlemain did say mass in his priestly habit , after the rites and ceremonies of the church of rome . edward tvrbervill . sworn the th . day of november . before thomas stringer . william poulteny . edmund warcupp . l. h. steward . my lord , this affidavit is to the purpose to which you call for it ; this does say that your lordship did go by the way of calice , it does absolutely so . l. stafford . now whether he be forsworn or no , your lordships may judge by these three witnesses . mr. turbervill . my lords , that which i grounded my belief of his going to calice upon , and so consequently that affidavit , was the letter which i received from my lord , which i have looked for , but cannot find . l. h. stew. this affidavit does not say you went from calice to england , but you went with count gramont to calice . l. stafford . i conceive , my lords , this affidavit , and his narrative are word for word the same , only that amendment of ( ) for ( ) upon which i observed before , he was forsworn once . i cannot tell what to say if this man can be believed . and count gramont came by diep too ; but besides , my lords , in this affidavit he does not say he believed so , by the letter , tho' now he speaks of one . l. h. stew. my lord stafford , was count gramont in your lordships company when you came to diep ? l. stafford . no , my lords , he was in england before me a month ; but , my lords , i cannot deny , but i had one recommended to come over with me , that pretended himself to be a french count , but the man was as errant a rascal as this that swears against me , and that was one that called himself count de brienne , whom all the world knows to be a cheat. l. h. stew. call your other witnesses , my lord. l. stafford . where is john minhead ? ( who stood up . ) l. h. steward . who do you belong to ? minhead . my lord powis . l. stafford . my lords , mr. turbervill , he says , by the persuasion of my lady powis , went to doway , and he staid in the monastery three weeks , and not liking that life , he came away ( this may be true , i say nothing to it : ) but that which i take exception at , is this , he says , for this the earl of powis and his lady , when he came back from doway , were very angry with him , and so were all his relations , and he stood in fear of his life from them . surely when mr. turbervill knew he was in such danger , he would not have come near them . pray ask this gentleman whether he was at my lord powis's , and how he was entertained . l. h. steward . do you know turbervill ? minhead . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. have you seen him at my lord powis's ? minhead . yes , my lords . l. h. stew ▪ how was he received there ? minhead . very well , my lords . l. h. stew , when was that ? minhead . in the year ( . ) l. h. stew. was that before or after he came back to england ? minhead . it was after he came from doway . l. h. stew. what country man are you ? minhead . a french man. l. h. stew. what religion are you of ? minhead . a roman catholick . l. stafford . pray ask him whether he lay in my lords house . minhead . yes , my lords , he lay with me in my lodgings . l. stafford . and yet he says he was afraid of his life . l. h. stew. did my lord know he lay there ? minhead . yes , he must needs , because he came through the room to go to bed. l. stafford . may it please your lordships , he says he was threatned that he should have his brother disinherit him , and which afterwards was compassed . now i shall shew that this is impossible , for he had no inheritance to lose , nor was to have none ; for his brother , who is elder than he , this man being by a second venter , hath children , as i shall make appear by another of his brothers , who is here . and this not being settled upon him who was by the second venter , could not come to him , but for want of issue of that brother , must go to the uncle . so he swears he was disinherited of an estate when he was to have no estate ▪ nor could have . call mr. john turbervill ( who appeared . ) my lords , i desire you to ask him whether he knew that upon his coming back to england , he was ill used ? mr. j. turbervill . i never knew any unkindness from my elder brother to him . l. h. stew. are you his brother ? mr. j. turbervill . yes , my lords , by the father , not by the mother . l. h. stew. well , what can you say ? mr. j. turbervill . i never heard any thing when he returned from doway , that he was ill received by my lord powis , but in a few days after my brother and sister came to town , we went to bloomesbury , and there we met together ; and my brother complaining that he was unfortunate in that he had undertaken what he could not perform in going beyond sea , and now wanted a livelihood ; my eldest brother told him he had done as far as his ability was , he could do no more , it was his own choice , and he had no more to say . l. staff. had he any money from his relations ? mr. j. turbervill . he made intercession by friends to my sister , and she told me that she gave him l. to bear his charges to paris , with that proviso that he would never trouble them more . l. h. stew. but were they not angry with him ? mr. j. turbervill . here he is , he cannot say they ever gave him an angry word in their days , i 'm sure , i never did . l. h. stew. did you not forbid him the house ? mr. j. turbervill . no. mr. edw. turbervill . these are people that take not the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , and therefore are not fit to be witnesses . l. stafford . now your lordships see what a villain he is . mr. serj. maynard . you must give good words , my lord , for none but good words are given you . lord stafford . i must call them vill●ius , or my self traitor . l. h. steward . you say they gave him l. upon condition they should never see him more . mr. j. turbervill . i did not say , my sister said upon condition she would give him l. he would never trouble us more , it was his declaration . lord stafford . one thing i w●●ld ask mr. turbervill more , and that is about this man's being disinherited : whether he could , or whether he was heir to any estate or not ? l. h. steward . what say you to it ? mr. j. turbervill . by all the information of our relations , the estate was made by my grand-father to my father for life , and after my fathers life to my mothers , and after my mothers life to my eldest brother , and the heirs males of his body ; and for want of such , afterwards to me , and the heirs males of my body ; and in case i had none , then to my fathers brother , and his heirs males : and if he had no heirs males , then after that to the right heirs of the grand-father . this was before my time . l. h. stew. well then , that remainder to the right heirs , might come to him ; and so there was some estate for him to lose , and that remainder might be docked by the tenant in tail. i would ask , was there any recovery suffered to bar that intail ? mr. j. turbervill . yes , i think there was one upon my brothers marriage . l. h. stew. mr. turbervill , were you told you should be disinherited ? mr. e. turbervill . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. who told you so ? mr. e. turbervill . my eldest brother . l. h. stew. what did he tell you ? mr. e turbervill . he told me it should not come to me . l. h. stew. how should it come to you ? mr. e. turbervill . i am not so good a lawyer as to tell that , whether it could or no , but i thought by succession . lord stafford . then he says he came to serve my lady mullineux in ( . ) it may be it is so as he says , i don't know it of my own knowledge ; but i pray he may answer , whether it was in ( ) or ( . ) mr. j. turbervill . in january or february ( . ) mr. treby . that is the beginning of the year ( , ) according to the almanack . l. staff. my lords , for the present i do not remember any thing more — oh , yes , my lords , he says he was at such a time at my lord powis's , when my lord castlemain was at powis-castle , which must be either in the year ( ) ( ) or ( . ) now i desire you would ask mr. lydcot whether my lord castlemain was there , or could be there in any of those years . ( then lydcot stood up . ) l. h. stew. what do you ask him , my lord ? lord stafford . i desire to ask him , whether in the year ( , ) ( , ) or ( . ) which are the years turbervill says he was at my lord powis's at powis-castle , whether my lord castlemain was at powis-castle , or could be there at that time . l. h. stew. was my lord castlemain there in any of those years ? lydcot . my lords , i can prove he was not , as much as i am capable of proving a negative . i was with him in the years , , and . l. h. steward . where ? lydcot . he was in england in . i was with him all the while ; and i am sure since i knew him he was never in wales , and i was never absent from him since i knew him ( which is nine years ) not four months in all . i have travelled with him , and been abroad with him . l. h. stew. turbervill , when do you say my lord castlemain was at powis castle ? mr. turbervill . i think it was in the year . l. h. stew. by what token do you remember him there ? mr. turbervill . he was arguing with my lord powis about religion , and several times he did so ; i believe it was in the year . l. h. stew. what say you to that ? lydcot . i can assure your lordships he was not there then , i was always with him that year ; he had many times a design to go there , but he could not but put it off , and the last time he was there , i can prove it was fifteen years ago . l. h. stew. i desire to know of you this , friend , can you take it upon you to affirm upon the faith of a christian , that you were never from my lord castlemain all the year ? lydcot . i can give an account to half a week where he was . and when i was absent from him , it was beyond sea , and all that while i kept correspondence with him every post , and received letters from him constantly once a week dated from liege . : this was in the time of my absence . l. h. stew. were you at liege when my lord was in england , or were you with him all the time that he was in england ? lydcot . my lords i was with him all the time he was in england , and was never absent from him all that compass of time , but when he sent me into england from liege . l. h. stew. then he was at liege himself ? lydcot . yes , my lords . l. h. stew. was that in the year ? lydcot . yes , my lords , i was then in england . but , my lords , i can give you an whole account , for my lord and i never made any journeys , but i put them down . l. h. steward . you say you can give a particular account of the whole year . even to the compass of four days in that year at most . lydcot . no , my lords , i do not say so , but i say i can give an account of the whole time i have been with him within four months . l. h. stew. were any of those months within the year ? lydcot . no , i was with him all the year . l. h. stew. will you take it upon you to say , that every day in . you were with my lord ? lydcot . every day , my lords . l. h. stew. every week ? lydcot . yes , i do not think but that i was . my lord did me the honour to make me as it were his companion . mr. serj. maynard . no , you do your self the honour to make your self his companion , he made you his servant . l. h. steward . come , where are your notes you pretend to speak by ? your diary , or your journal ? let us hear a whole account of the year . for you come to testifie as if you could give an account of every day . lydcot . i did not think any question of this nature would come on the stage , there is my lords steward can give a very good account of this by his account books , which are all ready to be produced ; he can tell where my lord was , by laying out such and such moneys . and 't is an hard thing to give a testimony after so many years , of a thing that we thought not would ever be a question . l. h. steward . let us see your notes . lydcot . my lords , i will read it to your lordships . l. h. steward . when was this written ? lydcot . i took this out of another book . l. h. steward . when ? lydcot . lately , since mr. turbervill's narrative came out . sir will. jones . oh , i desire that may be observed . l. stafford . if your lordships please , i desire that he may bring his books , oh , oh , will not condemn me , but law and justice . i am not to be run down with oh , oh , or what such impudent villains as these say . l. h. stew. read what you have there . lydcot . from liege we set forth to paris , january . . where we staid three weeks , and arrived thence at london january . there we staid till may . and from thence we went to liege again in june , and from liege we set forth to london in august , and returned october the d. . l. h. stew. were you all the while between august and october in london ? lydcot . i am morally certain , that i did not go from my lord all that time . l. h. stew. where were you after october ? lydcot . which october , if your lordship please ? l. h. stew. october , . lydcot . at liege , for we returned to liege at october the d. and then after this my lord sent me into england . i left him at liege , and from thence i set out for england , and in january i returned to liege , which was the greatest part of time that i was ever absent from him . l. h. stew. and was he at liege , are you sure , all that time from october to january ? lydcot . yes , except he fled : for i sent letters by the foreign post , and received letters by the foreign post every week . and his account-books will speak it . sir w. jones . my lords , we desire to ask him one question ( since he can give so exact an account ) whether my lord castlemain was in england ( ) and how much of that year ? lydcot . yes . sir w. jones . how many months of the year ( ) was he in england ? lydcot . i read it before . we arrived from liege to london , january . ( . ) and staid at london till may ( . ) l. h. stew. but where was my lord all the year ( ? ) lydcot . pray , my lords , do you mean new stile , or old stile ? l. h. steward . when i speak of his being at london , i mean the stile of the countrey . sir william jones . then under favour , he speaks of the latter part of the year : i desire to know , whether my lord for all the former part of the year was in england . l. h. stew. where was my lord in december ( . ) and in november before that , and in all the year up backwards ? lydcot . my lords , i have told you the whole year . l. h. steward . but where was my lord from january . to january ? lydcot . in . june . new stile , we came to london , and returned in september to liege ; from liege we set forth to paris january . . and arrived at london january . l. h. stew. he runs past the time . sir will. jones . my lords , we ask him a plain question , but he does not answer it ; he slips over the time that we desire your lordships to ask him about l. stafford . i beseech your lordships that it may be made plain , that there may nothing be said afterwards that it was not plain . lydcot . sir , do you propose any thing to me , and i will answer it . sir will. jones . answer not us , answer my lords . lydcot . i desire any body may peruse my notes , if they please . l. h. stew. pray , sir , answer the question , whichin very short terms is this , where my lord castlemain was all the whole year . lydcot . well , my lords , i will : i can but read it over again . from liege we set forth to paris , january . . l. h. stew. are not you a rare fellow now ? lydcot . my lords , i understand it according to the stile of that country when i am there , and of this place when i am here l. h. stew. answer me according to our stile . lydcot . this that i have written here , in the book out of which i took it , hath been written ever since that time ; and i did not think i should er'e be called to account about it . l. h. stew. begin january the st . . lydcot . we went from liege to paris , where we staid about a week , or such a time , and we arrived at london , january . that is the old stile , and staid at london till may . . l. h. stew. that is impossible , for you ' scape a year and a half to together . lydcot . my lord was here in england in january . l. h. stew. you begin very gravely with january , stylo veteri , that you came from liege , and so january . stylo veteri , you came to london . lydcot . when i speak of any style , i understand it according to the style of the country . l. h. stew. but in your account , what is become of all the time from january . to january . say and swear , if you can , where my lord was all that time . lydcot . he must be in london . l. h. stew. can you take it upon your oath , that my lord was in london from january . stylo veteri to may . stylo veteri ? lydcot . i cannot know how to count better than i have done . l. stafford . mr. turbervill . says , my lord castlemain was in . at powis-castle ; i beseech your lordships this man may be asked , and that without any interruption , where my lord was that year . sir will. jones . with your lordships favour , i must desire your lordships to ask mr. turbervill whether he did say positively the year ● . for if my ears and my notes do not fail me , he said , as he remembred , and that is the reason why we ask about the year . mr. turbervill . my lords , i do not say positively , nor cannot , which year it was . lydcot . my lords , i do stand upon it that he was in london january . and went away may . l. h. stew. what becomes of the mean time , between january . and may ? lydcot . my lords , i explain my self as well as i can . l. h. stew , my lord stafford , will you call any more witnesses . l. stafford . yes , my lord. l. h. stew. call them then . earl of shaftsbury . my lord high steward , i desire my lord stafford may be asked how many witnesses my lord hath more , for it now grows late . l. h. steward . my lord , i desire to know how many witnesses you have more ? l. stafford . three or four , i can't well tell how many . lords . adjourn , adjourn . lord. high. steward . is it your lordships pleasure that we do adjourn ? lords . ay , ay. l. h. steward . then this house is adjourned into the parliament chamber . then the lords returned in their former order to their house , and the commons went back to their house . mr. speaker , resumed the chair , and a message from the lords was sent by sir timothy baldwin and sir samuel clark. mr. speaker , the lords have sent us to acquaint this house , that they have ordered the prisoner william viscount stafford to be brought again to his tryal at the bar in westminster-hall to morrow morning at ten of the clock . the fourth day . friday , december . . about the hour of ten in the morning the lords adjourned into westminster-hall , and returned in their former order into the court there erected ; and mr. speaker having left the chair , the commons were seated as before mentioned . the court being sat , proclamation for silence was made , and the lieutenant of the tower commanded to bring his prisoner to the bar , which being done , the lord high steward spake to the prisoner as followeth . l. h. steward . my lord stafford , your lordships defence took up yesterday ; all the day was employed in hearing your lordships witnesses to impeach the credit of the testimony that hath been given against you . your lordship hath excepted against dugdale , because you were not at tixall , as he says you were ; neither the latter end of august , nor the beginning of september till the twelfth ; and when you were there , you never sent for him to your chamber , but your man upon his own desire brought him , and when he came there , the business was to desire you to get leave that he might go to the race ; and there was no opportunity of private discourse , because your men were in the room all the while ; that dugdale hath often said he knew nothing of the plot ; that he swore falsly when he said he told of the letter about the death of sir edmunbury godfrey before it was known he was killed ; and when he said , that hobson told him presently after the almoner went over , which was three years before hobson came to my lord aston's service . your lordship hath likewise objected , that he hath corrupted persons to swear falsly against you , and others , as robinson the upholsterer , against your lordship , morrall the barber against sir james symons , and holt the blacksmith to swear that one moor carried away evers . your lordship hath endeavoured to discredit oats , by his saying he knew nothing of any other persons that were concerned in the plot , and after accusing the queen : your lordship hath impeached the credit of turbervill , by proving , that you came home by diep , and not by calice , as he says you did ; that you had never the gout while you were in france , nor , as your page says , for these seven years ; that my lord castlemain was not at my lord powis's in the year . and there you left off . this i take is the sum of what your lordship says , if i do you any wrong , your lordship will put me in mind of it . l. stafford . i thank your lordship , you have done it with great equity and truth . l. h. stew. then go on . l. stafford . the next witness that i call , is one john porter . ( who stood up . ) l. h. stew. what is your name ? witness . john porter . l. h. stew. what profession are you of ? porter . a butler . l. h. stew. to whom ? porter . to my lord powis . l. stafford . my lords , i desire your lordships would ask him what mr. turbervill said about the plot. l. h. stew. i will ask him all the questions your lordship desires i should ask him . mr. foley . we desire to know what religion he is of ? l. stafford . i desire your lordships would ask him that question , and not the managers . l. h. stew. they will tell me their questions , my lord , and i will ask them . l. staff. they ask him , my lords , and not you . l. h. stew. what religion are you of ? porter . a church of england man my lords . mr. serj. maynard . the popish church of england , i believe . l. stafford . pray , my lords ▪ let not this be , when my witness says he is of the church of england , they cry he is of the popish church of england . mr. serj. maynard . pray , good my lord , we are silent when you ask him proper questions , and make no remarks , we do not speak it to the court , we may say what we will among our selves , i hope . l. staff. i may ask impertinent questions , because i do not understand so well as these gentlemen . but i pray they may not deal thus with me . l. h. stew. my lord , you shall ask what questions you please . l. stafford . pray ask him what mr. turbervill said to him about his knowledge of the plot. l. h. stew. what did turbervill say to you about his knowing of the plot ? porter . about a year since , when i served my lord powis , as butler there , he was used to come and see me , it was not at my lords house , but he sent for me to a victualling-house — l. h. stew. that was the last year ? porter . yes . l. h. stew. what time of the year ? porter . it was about twelve months ago , i cannot say positively the time . l. h. stew. was it winter or summer ? porter . he hath been both , i can't be positive which ; i believe he hath been there times . l. h. stew. in the year ( ) or ( ? ) porter . in the year ( . ) l. h. stew. what did he say ? porter . he came there , and asked me how my lord powis did , and said he was extremely troubled that he was in that affliction , for he did verily believe , that neither he , nor the rest of the lords were in the plot , and the witnesses that swore against him , he believed were perjured , and could not believe any thing of it . l. h. stew. have you any more to say ? porter . yes , my lords , i told him if there were such a thing as a plot , he having been beyond sea , must certainly know of it ; he told me , as he hoped for salvation , he knew nothing of it , neither directly nor indirectly , against the kings sacred person , nor the subversion of the government . and he further said ; although i am a little low at present , and my friends will not look upon me , yet i hope god almighty will never leave me so much , as to let me swear against innocent persons , and forswear and damn my self . l. h. stew. where was this said to you ? porter . at the ship alehouse in lincolns inn fields one time , another time at the kings head tavern in the strand , and another time at the golden ball in the strand . l. h. stew. was any body by , besides your self ? porter . not at that time , but there is a gentleman in court , that can testifie that he said such things at other times . l. h. stew. what say you to this turbervill ? mr. turbervill . i say 't is all false . but if your lordships please , i 'll tell you what i said once , i did conceive my lord powis was the least concerned of any , i thought , and i hoped it would prove so . i can take all the oaths in the world i said no more . l. h. stew. what else do you know ? porter . only such things as these he hath often said . earl of shaftsbury . pray , my lords , ask him how came turbervill to talk of witnesses about the plot. l. h. stew. upon what occasion came turbervill to talk of these matters ? porter . it was only voluntary of himself , it was speaking of my lord powis , and the rest of the lords in the tower. earl of shaftsbury . my lords i mean of his own being a witness . l. h. stew. how came turbervill to say , he hoped god almighty would never forsake him so far , as to let him swear against innocent persons , he was never called to be a witness ? porter . but , my lords , some of his friends did say they were fearful of him , in regard he was reduced to poverty ; his friends were fearful . l. h. stew. who were fearful ? porter . his brother and sister , mr. turbervill and his wife . l. h. steward . did he take notice to you that they were afraid he would come in ? porter . yes , mr. turbervill did tell me himself , that they heard he would come in ? l. h. stew. have you said all you have to say ? porter . my lords that is all i have to say . l. h. stew. then call another , my lord. l. stafford . where is mr. yalden ? ( who stood up . ) l. h. steward . what is your name ? witness . yalden . l. h. stew. your christian name ? witness . john. l. h. stew. what is your profession ? yalden . a barrester at law. l. h. stew. how long have you been called to the bar ? yalden . i was called to the bar last trinity term months . l. h. stew. what house are you of ? yalden . grays-inn . l. h. stew. are you a practiser ? yalden . yes , my lords . l. h. steward . what religion are you of ? yalden . of the church of england . l. h. steward . well , what can you say ? yalden . i am summoned to appear by order of this house , and i desire to know of my lord what he is pleased to examine me about . l. staff. what mr. turbervill hath said in his hearing about the plot. l. h. stew. what discourse hath passed between you and turbervill about the plot ? yalden . my lords , in february or march last , i was walking in grays-inn-walks with mr. turbervill , and mr. powell and he dined with me a day or two after , and there mr. turbervill and i were talking of the distractions of the times , how trade was ruined , how the whole kingdom was out of order , and he was a little touched at some things , and cryed out , go ! dam me , now , there is no trade good but that of a discoverer , but the devil take the duke of york , monmouth , plot and all , for i know nothing of it . l. h. stew. that is odd , that he should say it was a good trade to be a discoverer , and at the same time say , he knew nothing of the plot. yalden . this i understood to be his meaning ; he cursed himself and them , because he knew nothing of the plot to discover , for he would have got money by it ( as i understood ) as well as others . mr. turbervill . my lords , mr. yalden did declare yesterday , he was summoned in by my lord stafford the last night , and that he had nothing to say but what was by hear say . mr. yalden . my lords , i do declare what i say is true ; and yesterday mr. powell gave me a caution to take heed what i did , and swore , by god , it would else be the worse for me . l. h. steward . who did ? yalden . mr. powell . l. h. steward . who is that ? yalden . mr. turbervill's friend . and i said i do not appear here as a voluntary evidence , but by an order of the house of lords ; i do not know what weight my evidence may have , for i can say nothing but what i heard him say , and so perhaps it will be taken but for an hear-say . mr. turbervill . you said you knew nothing but by hear-say . l. h. stew. will you ask him any questions gentlemen ? managers . no , my lords . l. stafford . my lords , i shall not trouble your lordships with any more witnesses as to these points ; i have here a copy of the warrant for the yaught to go to diep ; and if there be any question whether i did come over from diep at christmas . if you please the book may be searched . l. h. stew. my lord it is all lost , for i hear not one word . l. stafford . i say , my lords , if it be fit to trouble your lordships with it , i can prove that i did come over in the yaught from diep at christmas . here is the copy of the warrant for it to go for me . and whether you will have it proved that i did come over thence , i submit to you . l. h. steward . i suppose that is fully proved already , that you did come by diep . managers . we do not deny it . l. h. stew. you do not stand upon it , gentlemen , do you ? managers . no , no , my lords . l. h. stew. 't is admitted to you , my lord. l. stafford . my lords , when i went from your lordships bar last night , i had no thoughts of examining any witnesss , but what i have already done : but , my lords , since i was here , there hath something happened , about which i desire dr. oats may be called again , ( i shall give you the reason why i move it afterwards , ) upon something i heard yesternight . l. h. stew. call dr. oats again . ( who appeared and stood up . ) l. h. steward . my lord , what does your lordship call him for ? l. stafford . he did say , that he being a minister of the church of england , did seemingly go over to the church of rome , or some such words ; i desire he may answer that first . l. h. steward . what say you ? dr. oats . yes , i did say , i did but seemingly go over . l. stafford . i desire to know , whether he was really a papist , or did but pretend . dr. oats . i did only pretend , i was not really one , i declare it . l. h. stew. what do you make of that ? l. stafford . i desire to know how long dr. oats was in spain . dr. oats . my lords , i came into spain in may , and i came home again in november . l. h. steward . that is six months . l. stafford . he is called dr. oats : i beseech your lordships to ask him , whether he were a doctor made at the universities here , or abroad . dr. oats . my lords , if your lordships please , any matter that is before your lordships , i will answer to it , but i hope your lordships will not call me to account for all the actions of my life , whatever evidence is before your lordships , i will justifie . l. h. stew. the doctor hath never taken it upon his oath , that he was a doctor , and why do you ask it ? l. stafford . he is called a doctor , and i would know whether he did never declare upon his oath , that he took the degree at salamanca ? dr. oats . my lords , i am not ashamed of any thing i have said or done . i own what is entred as my oath before your lordships , and am ready to answer it ; but i am not bound to say , what does not at all concern this business . l. stafford . i say , my lords , 't is entred upon your lordships books , that he did swear at the council , he was at madrid with don john of austria ; i would know of him whether he did so . dr. oats . my lords , i would have my lord to propose the question to the court of peers . l. h. steward . have you sworn any thing of don john of austria ? dr. oats . my lords ▪ i refer my self to the council book . l. stafford . i beseech your lordships , i may have that book . l. h. steward . i believe it is in the narrative , turn to the journal , you have that mentioned there . to which the clerk turned , but it could not be sound . l. h. stew. if you will not acknwledge it , we must stay till the book be brought . dr. oats . my lords , if your lordships please , i will repeat , as well as i can , what was said at the council table , but i had rather the council book were fetched , because i am upon my oath ; but , my lords , i always thought the council book is no record upon any man. l. stafford . i desire it may be produced , or he own that he said so . lord high steward . what you said at the council table , you said upon your oath , and 't is lawful to lay it before you . dr. oats . but , if your lordships please , as to what was said at the council table , if my lord will bring any one viva voce , to swear what was said by me there , that will make something . l. h. stew. that may be material , as he says , that your lordship should bring some body to swear he said so ; for the clerks may mistake him . l. stafford . if your lordships please that the book may be sent for , i will make it out . sir w. jones . it could not be read if it were here . l. h. stew. if the clerks will swear what is in the books , it may . sir w. jones . but whether the clerks will take that upon them or no , may be question . lord. high. steward . go on in the mean time . l. stafford . i cannot conclude with him without it . l. h. stew. where is the council book ? for the clerks inform me 't is not in their custody ; but the gentlemen of the house of commons have been attended with the book , and other papers relating to it . l. stafford in the mean time , give me leave to say something ; though perhaps it may be nothing to the purpose ; mr. yalden was just now going down ' and turbervill threatned to lay him by the heels . l. h. stew. if he did so , 't is a misdemeanor , and he must be punished for it . call yalden and turbervill . l. h. stew. mr. turbervill , have you dared , or threatned yalden the witness , to lay him by the heels ? mr. turbervill . i did not speak any such words to him , mr. dugdale was just by me all the while . l. stafford . i tell you but what he said , and what i can prove by witness ; pray call yalden . mr. turbervill . this gentleman , captain scudamore , stood by me too . l. h. stew. but i ask you upon this misdemeanor , whether you threatned yalden to lay him by the heels ? mr. turbervill . my lords , i stood by mr. dugdale till he was gone down . l. h. stew. how could he lay him by the heels ? by what authority could he do it ? mr. turbervill . i did not speak such a word , upon my oath . l. stafford . ask yalden , i am told he did . l. h. stew. i am afraid you are misinformed , my lord , for he could not do it , 't is not in his power . l. stafford . he threatned he would goal him , but if you won't examine it , i submit to you . dr. oats . my lords , yalden , it seems , calls us a pack of rogues , that give evidence for the king ; and here are witnesses of it . ( yalden stood up . ) l. h. stew. yalden , were you threatned by turbervill ? yalden . yes , i will tell you how i was threatned , my lords , mr. turbervill pulls me by the arm , when i had given my evidence , and asked me if i knew him , and bid me take care . l. h. stew. do you call that a threatning ? yalden . my lords , i did not make this complaint , nor did i desire it should be made ; but speaking this in the room , some body carried it to my lord. mr. turbervill . my lords , now he hath done , let me speak , i pray ; mr. yalden did say in the hearing of captain scudamore , who is here , he had got a great many clients here , but you , says he , have got nothing but a pack of rogues . yalden . that is a mistake . l. h. stew. this is fine work . but , gentlemen , will you call captain scudamore now , or will you stay till afterwards ? sir fr. winn. my lords , mr. turbervill desires it may be now , and we do also desire it upon this occasion , captain scudamore is a man of quality , and will give you a true account . we did not think to have interposed in my lord stafford's evidence , but he having impeached our witnesses of a misdemeanor , we conceive it fittest to clear it at this time . then captain scudamore was sworn . l. h. stew. mr. scudamore , what are you called for ? can you say any thing that happened between turbervill and yalden ? captain scudamore . the gentleman that is here , that said he was one of grays-inn , i do not know his name — l. h. stew. 't is yalden . captain scudamore . i heard a gentleman ask him , if he came there to get clients ? and he said , i know nothing among you but roguery . l. stafford . whereabouts did this gentleman stand ? captain scudamore . in the passage . mr. turbervill . here are five or six more that heard him say so . yalden . that which i said , was this , that i might come hither for practice , but i did not come hither for roguery . l. h. stew. my lord stafford , until such time as the council-book comes , which may be sent for : will your lordship proceed to something else ? l. wharton . my lord steward , i humbly conceive , that it was resolved in the lords house , the day before yesterday , that no book should be sent for out of the court , and it was done upon the judgment of all the judges of england . yalden . my lords , they will not permit me to go down . l. h. stew. there is a strange quarrel between you witnesses , and an affectation of complaining one of another . let mr. yalden go down . sir w. jones . my lords , i would only acquaint your lordships , that the council-book , that my lord does make mention of , was in the hands of our clerk , we did not know of it when it was first discoursed of ; but now understanding that here it is , we desire it may be delivered in to any body that hath occasion for it . l. h. stew. hand it in . ( which was done . ) l. h. stew. what day does your lordship speak of ? l. stafford . the , , or . of september . clerk. then this is not the book , for this is for january . l. stafford . my lords , is it your lordships pleasure i may have pen , ink , and paper allowed me ? l. h. stew. yes , yes , give my lord pen , ink and paper , ( which they did . ) then the lord high steward looked upon the council-book . l. h. stew. my lord stafford , in this council-book , as far as we can inform our selves by the table of it , there is nothing at all of it ; it must be the council-book in september . sir will. jones . we have no other book but that . l. h. stew. why did not your lordship send all this while to the council table for any thing that was material , but give the court the trouble to be interrupted upon your inquiries ? l. stafford . my lords , you may do what you please , i did not know any such thing would have needed to be urged . i have proof enough without the book ; the use i should have made of it , is this , i do appeal to some of your lordships ( you that were of the council ) i do appeal to which of you that were by , whether dr. oats did not say at the council table , he had been at madrid , he went from vallidolid to madrid , and there did preach something at the jesuits colledge at madrid , ( what it was i cannot tell ) when don john of austria was by . l. h. stew. if any of my lords of the council do remember it they may testifie . l. privy seal . my lords , i shall tell your lordships as much as i remember of it : dr. oats was examined about his journey into spain , and ( amongst the rest ) some question hapned to be asked , whether he had seen don john of austria , he said he had seen one that was called so , that he knew him not , but he was pointed to one that they said was don john of austria ; that i heard . l. stafford . my lord , i thank you . l. h. stew. you hear what is said , dr. oats . dr. oats . my lords , suppose i did say so , i think there is no crime in it . l. h. stew. 't is not objected against you as a crime , but as a mistake in your oath , there was no such man there . l. privy seal . my lords , i would not be misunderstood in the evidence i give ; i did not say that oats said he knew him , but that he knew him not , and only was told such a man was he . dr. oats . it was made apparent , that i did not know him , because i mistook his person . l. stafford . i do stand upon it , that upon his oath , ( and i have reason to believe he did so , because i am so informed ) he said it was don john of austria . l. privy seal . no , my lord , dr. oats said he was a tall lean man , and it seems he was a little fat man. l. stafford . if any man would shew him a man to counterfeit don john of austria , he would not shew him a lean man for a fat . l. h. stew. go on , my lord. l. stafford . i shall now put your lordships in mind that he swore , but my memory is bad , and my eyes much worse , that he saw me receive a commission , and it seems he saw what it was too : now it is strange , that amongst so many commissions that were given , none should be extant ; i desire him to shew the commission he saw me receive . l. h. stew. would your lordship have him shew the commissions which he saw you receive ? l. stafford . i do not believe he can shew my commission ; for i am sure there was none ; i desire him to shew any one of my letters he talks of . he says , he came over , feigning to be a papist , when he was not , and that they shewed him presently all my letters , and now he is come to discover the plot ; i ask him , did he keep any one of my letters ? l. h. stew. have you any of any lords letters by you ? dr. oats . my lords , i could not keep any letters sent to the fathers , i had a fight of them , but none of them to my particular use . l. stafford . does he know my hand ? did he ever see it in his life ? dr. oats . yes , i do know his hand , i believe i have a letter of my lords by me , but not about me , 't is of no concern ; i 'm sure i have one of my lord arundel's . l. stafford . but he says he hath a letter of mine ; let him shew one of my letters . dr. oats . he writes a mixt hand , i think 't is but an indifferent one . l. stafford . so many comissions , and so many letters , as are spoken of , and not one to be found or produced . l. h. stew. can you send for the letter ? dr. oats . my lords , i am not certain of that . l. h. stew. where did you see my lord write ? dr. oats . at fenwick's , my lords , when i carried the letter to the post . l. stafford . how often hath he seen me at fenwick's ? dr. oats . my lords , not above twice , if twice . l. stafford . my lords , i cannot say i did not see him there , but i can say i don't know the place , nor that ever i was there . dr. oats . my lords , will his lordship say i never saw him at dr. perrots ? l. stafford . who ? dr. oats . my lord stafford . l. stafford . where did he live ? dr. oats . in dukes-street , going into lincolns-inn-fields ; he is the arch-priest of the seculars , that is , the principal of the secular clergy ; and he hath the care of the english colledge for the sending of scholars to the colledge . mr. fisher , my lord stafford , and dr. perrot were together discoursing about sending his son thither , and mr. fisher would have one sent with him that was dr. perrot's man. l. stafford . i do profess before god , i was never at dr. perrot's in my whole life . l. h. stew. did not you send your son abroad ? l. stafford . no , my lords , not i. l. h. stew. had he a servant at dr. perrot's to attend him ? dr. oats . no , my lords , not that i know of , i cannot say he had not . l. stafford . i tell you positively , as i am a christian , my lords , i did not send my son to lisbon , he went against my will. i told him i had an aversion to it , but said i will not lay my commands on you not to go , but he would go , i could not help it ; i told him , do you mean to go into the colledge ? he would not tell me . l. h. stew. pray , my lord , does not your lordship know dr. perrot ? lord stafford , yes , my lords , i do . l. stafford . were you never with him at his house in duke-street . l. stafford . no , my lords , never in my life , nor saw that fisher he speaks of , ever in my life . dr. oats . my lords , 't is against the rules of that house , that any be admitted of that house ( if their parents be catholicks ) without consent of their parents . l. stafford . if he be admitted there , i know it not . dr. oats . he lives there . l. stafford . but i protest before god , my lords , i asked him that question , will you go to the colledge ? no , says he , i will go to lie at the bishops house ; but as for dr. perrot , i never was at his lodgings in my life , and i never knew where he lay ; he hath been with me sometimes , but i knew not that he was a doctor . but , my lords , i desire i may not be ran down by these fellows , who do not speak a word true , nor one tittle . my lords i have witnesses in whose house fenwick lay . call them and ask them if ever they knew me in their lives . l. h. stew. what kind of man was he ? dr. oats . my lords , he is an ancient man he wears his own hair. l. h. steward . is he a tall man , or a low man ? dr. oats . a lusty man. l. stafford . truly , my lords , i never was at his house since i was born . dr. oats . my lords , i 'll tell your lordships a circumstance , that summer don francisco de melos , the ambassador here was sick , and i think he died of the sickness , dr. perrot was his father confessor ; i was waiting for dr. perrot some time , for he promised to meet me at his lodgings , and this gentleman the prisoner at the bar did come in there . l. staffo rd . where ? dr. oats . into dr. perrot's lodging . dr. perrot had a kinsman there that waited on him ; and when my lord came in , he was in haste to speak with dr. perrot , and he offered me half a crown to fetch dr. perrot to him , and i made him this reply , i was no porter . l. stafford . if ever i saw this man in my life since i was born , or heard of his name till the plot , then i will confess my self guilty of all . indeed , when first i heard of the plot ( they said ) there was one mr. oats discovered it , but i did not know any such man. dr. oats . i went by another name , and went in another habit , and my lord stafford , though his memory be bad , yet it can't be so bad , but that he must remember something of me . l. stafford . i don't remember you , i never saw your face in my life . l. h. steward . you would have given him half a crown to have fetch'd dr. perrot . l. stafford . it seems then at that time , i took him for a poor fellow , that i should offer him a shilling or two . dr. oats . it is like i was , but i refused your half crown , and told you i was no porter . l. stafford . my lords , i shall give you evidence that he was a poor fellow , since he gives me occasion to prove it , nay , that he was so poor , that he was brought down to accept of d. i will prove it by the party that gave it , now he puts me upon it : but , my lords , this doctor oats says he saw some of my letters , i desire to know what was in them ; did he take any notes ? what was in them ? l. h. stew. did you when you had a sight of these letters at st. omers , take any notes out of them ? dr. oats what notes i did take , if i did take any , i have not now in being , but i do not remember that i did take any . besides , my lords , we could keep no papers by us , but what we communicated to our superiours , and therefore it was still their care to look after their papers themselves ; and in that circumstance of time , if they had known i had taken notes out of their papers , it would have been prejudicial to me , and indangered my life . l. stafford . my lords , i infer this one thing further , upon what this doctor oats tells you , he did seemingly profess himself of the catholick religion , and i do stand upon it , that hereupon he is no competent witness in that which he offers against me : for he being of the church of england , ( for i think he professes himself so , and wears that habit ) i say , any man , let him be who he will in the world , church of england man or other , that shall pretend himself to be a papist , for what end soever it be that he so pretends , and dissembles with god almighty , which he must do to a great height , in receiving that sacrament , which is by your lordships and the house of commons declared to be gross idolatry , is not easily to be esteemed a witness . i appeal to your lordships , to the house of commons , and every body , whether such a fellow , that will abhor his religion , let him do it for any ends in the world , be a man to be credited ; and especially ingaging in such a way , to such an height , in that which his conscience tells him is idolatrous , is not a perjured fellow , and no compleat witness ? no christian , but a devil , and a witness for the devil . and i appeal to the whole christian world , if a protestant of the church of england should come to be a servant to a catholick and pretend himself a papist , and were not so , whether he were fit to be countenanced ; as it did once happen to me at brussels , fore the king came in , one that was a protestant came to be my footman , and he professed himself afterwards to be a catholick ; and when i found he was not so , i told him what a villain he was , and he ought to be punished severely . i detest such dissembling with god , and i think by the laws of god and man , and the holy scriptures , such a perjured man is no witness . i am sorry i have troubled your lordships so long . but now if you please to give me leave , my lords , i will give you my reasons why i called him now : when i did remember how he had dissembled with god almighty , as i said before , i did consider with my self , sure this dr. oats must have been , ever since he hath returned , of a very severe , strict and sober life ; for a man that hath so dissembled with god , ought to shew himself of an exemplary , peaceful , pious , civil life , to testifie the truth and reality of his repentance . but last night when i came home , and was siting by the fire side extreamly weary , my daughter here comes in , and asks me if i had heard what had passed between dr. oats and the lieutenant ; how he called the lieutenant rascal and goaler : sure then , said i , to my self , this is not the quiet , civil , sober man , that such a one that hath lived as he hath done , ought to be . and this is the reason i speak of it , that he should call him vile names , goaler and rascal ; it did not become a man of his coat to do it : whether it was so or no , i do not know , but mr. lieutenant , i suppose , will satisfie your lordships . l. h. steward . what did oats say to you , mr. lieutenant ? mr. lieuten . my lords i was desiring mr. oats that he would keep the people down , because there was a great croud ; and seeing a great many people come in , he told me , they were witnesses that were to come in : said i , i believe half of these are not witnesses ; and the door opening so often , i could keep this place in no order ; so i desired they would stand away that were not witnesses : why , says he , you are but a goaler ; then i told him , if it were not for his coat , and i were out of this place , i would break his head . then he called me raskal . l. stafford . my lord steward , i desire to know whether this be a witness fit to be believed against any man. l. h. stew. mr. oats , this does not become you ; 't is very ill manners in you . dr. oats . my lords , the lieutenant of the tower hath the law ; and i refer my self to the law , if i have done him any wrong . mr. serj. maynard . it did not become mr. lieutenant of the tower to tell him he would break his head . mr. lieutenant . why ? if any man out of the court , or in another habit , should tell me i was a goaler , i think i should not deserve to be the kings lieutenant , if i did not break his head. mr. serj. maynard . pray tell the court so . but yet , under favour , you ought not to threaten him for a word to break his head . l. stafford . my lords , i do say this to your lordships , a man that hath dissembled with god almighty in so high a nature , as he ackowledges himself to have done , ought to be a man of a very severe life afterwards , and not so passionate and cholerick , as it seems this fellow is . l. h. stew. will your lordship proceed ? l. stafford . for this man , truly , i shall say no more ; i think i have said enough to make him appear a person not fit to be believed . i would only ask stephen dugdale a question , if you please ; 't is but a little , i won't hold you long . i only ask , and if he deny it , i 'le prove it , whether he was not a prisoner at stafford for debt , when he made the first affidavit ? l. h. stew. were you a prisoner for debt at stafford , when you made your first affidavit ? mr. dugdale . in the serjeants hands i was , my lords . l. staff. for a very great debt , my lords , some hundreds of pounds , and he was a fellow not worth a groat : and , my lords , dr. oats says i offered him half a crown , and he refused it . i call ellen rigby to prove he was so poor he begg'd for six pence . dr. oats . i will save my lord the trouble of proving any such thing . my lord stafford says i was a poor man , and had not six pence in my pocket ; i can make it appear to the house of lords , that sometime since i came in upon this discovery , i have not had two pence in my pocket , and sometimes i have not had six pence : but a mans pȯverty is no objection against his honesty . l. stafford . where is ellen rigby to prove , whether she did not give him six pence ? but then , my lords , pray ask him whether he did not swear at a former tryal , he had spent six or seven hundred pounds more than he got ? l. h. stew. did you say at a former tryal , you were five or six hundred pound out of purse ? dr. oats . my lords , i will satisfie this house what i said ; what folks write after me , i am not to justifie . but , my lords , i had a friend of mine presented me with l. i name not his name ; but if that be questioned , he is a peer of this house , and will justifie it . i had l. for my narrative . i had l. for taking some jesuits ; which is l. i had for some other copies that i printed , a matter of or l. and now i can make it appear , that as to those sums which i received in gross , i have spent them all , and more in this service , for i have none of the money now by me . l. stafford . he makes out but l. and he swore he was out l. but he does not swear one true tittle , nor is any whit to be believed . dr. oats . if you expect i should prove it , i can prove it now . managers . be quiet dr. oats , we will do you right anon . l. stafford . my lords , i do not know for the present that i have any thing else to trouble your lordships with . i remember these gentlemen when i asked them if they had any more evidence to give in , said no , unless i should give them some occasion ; and now i desire your lordships , if they bring any new evidence , that i may have time to answer it . l. h. stew. god forbid but you should have liberty to answer any objection . sir w. jones . my lords , before we go about to sum up our evidence we shall have occasion to call some witnesses , and that will be to fortifie what our witnesses have said , to discover what kind of witnesses have been made use of against them , and to falsifie what my lords witnesses have said in some particulars . these will be the three heads for which we desire to call witnesses . and because ( my lords ) we will not trouble you with making one intire narration of what they can say , or to what purpose we call them before they come , we desire the favour that we may acquaint your lordships with it , still as we call them ; for that we think will be the way more clearly to be understood . my lords , we shall begin to make good by other witnesses , some things said by mr. dugdale , ( for he was our first witness , and therefore in order of time we will first begin with him . ) my lords , the prisoner at the bar was pleased to object — l. stafford . my lords , i would not interrupt him ; but i would ask whether there were more than two heads that he proceeds upon to fortifie their own evidence , and to falsifie mine . sir w. jones . my lords , i think we may comprehend all under those two heads : but , my lords , you observe , one great matter my lord did insist upon yesterday , was this . that he , it is true , hath seen mr. dugdale at my lord aston's ( though by the way i must say this , my lord at the first did not seem to know him . ) — l. stafford . i did not know him in his peraiwig . l. h. stew. do not interrupt them , my lord , for they must have the same liberty that you had , to go on without interruption . sir will. jones . we must have the same freedom my lord had . i will do his lordship that right , he did afterwards recollect himself , and say , his perriwig had made that alteration in him , that he did not know him . but my lord was also pleased to say yesterday , that though he did know him , yet he looked upon him as so mean and inconsiderable a fellow , that he did purposely avoid all discourse with him ; and that sometimes when he was a dry at my lord aston's he would not speak to him to help him , nor to call one to help him to drink . my lord , was pleased yesterday also to deny that ever he had any converse with him but only that one time , when indeed mr. dugdale did desire to make use of my lord , that by his interposition he might have leave to go to the foot-race . my lords , your lordships very well perceive we are now going about to prove a matter mostly arising within my lord aston's family ; and what witnesses we shall have from thence , your lordships may easily imagine will not be very favourable to us : and if we have not many to this point , your lordships will take into consideration , that those who can give the fullest proof here , must be those of the family , and the religion of the family . but , my lords , we will call one or two that i believe will give you satisfaction that my lord the prisoner was no such stranger to mr. dugdale ; that they have been seen together , and alone together ; and that is the first thing we desire to call witnesses to . call mr. ansell and william hanson . mr. hanson was sworn . l. h. steward . where do you live ? whose servant are you ? mr. hanson . at wilnal in stafford shire . l. h. steward . what do you ask him ? sir will. jones . i desire , if you be satisfied where he lives , that he will tell you whether he hath been at my lord aston's , and seen my lord stafford there . l. h. steward . have you seen my lord stafford at my lord aston's ? mr. hanson . yes , my lords . l. h. steward . when ? mr. hanson . a little above two years ago . l. stafford . be pleased he may name the time positively . sir will. jones . my lord stafford is not so well versed in prosecutions of this nature , as to know that he is not to interrupt us while we are examining our witnesses . l. h. steward . my lord , your lordship received no interruption , nor must give none . sir will. jones . my lords , we desire this witness may be asked , whether or no he hath seen mr. dugdale and my lord stafford at any time together . l. h. steward . what say you ? mr. hanson . yes , my lords . l. h. steward . when , and where ? mr. hanson . i cannot justly tell the time . l. h. stew. can you tell the place ? mr. hanson . yes , at my lord aston's . l. h. stew. whereabouts ? mr. hanson . in my lord aston's parlour . l. h. stew. and were they alone ? mr. hanson . mr. dugdale fetched me to my lord stafford . l. h. stew. and was no body in the parlour when dugdale fetched you to my lord ? mr. hanson . no , my lords , i think there was not . l. stafford . he thinks there was not . mr. hanson . there was not , to my best remembrance . sir w. jones . my lords , will you be pleased to ask him the occasion why dugdale fetched him to him . mr. hanson . my lord had a mind to have a boy , l. h. stew. what was the occasion that dugdale did come to fetch you to my lord stafford in the parlour ? mr. hanson . to bring the boy , my lords , yong hawkins . mr. dugdale fetched me and the boy to him ; it was a boy that my lord would have to live with him . sir will. jones . can you tell what time of the year it was ? whether winter or summer as near as you can ? l. h. stew. aye , what time of the year was it ? mr. hanson . indeed , my lords , i cannot tell . sir will. jones . i desire to ask him , whether , when he went away , he left them together ? l. h. stew. did you leave them together ? mr. hanson . to my best remembrance , my lords , i did . the boy and i went away together , and we left them at my lord aston's parlour-door . sir will. jones . call james ansel . l. h. stew. nay , if you have done with him , my lord stafford may ask him any questions . l. stafford . my lords , i shall tell you how this thing is . there was a report that this hawkins was a very good running foot-boy ; and this was spoken of at my lord aston ▪ s at dinner or supper , i don't know which , nay severall times about that time ; it was when my lord of danby was treasurer , and his son my lord dunblain was much for foot-matches , and i had a minde to have a foot-boy to make a match with him ; and i believe dugdale at dinner or supper did say that he was a good running lad , and i might desire to see him , and dugdale did bring him to me i believe into my lord aston's parlour ; but there was at least six or seven in the room besides . l. h. stew. my lord stafford , was this at that time when your lordship was at tixal the of september ? l. stafford . pray , my lords i desire to ask him that question ; i would know what year it was . l. h. stew. he says it was above two years ago , l. stafford . i profess i believe it was one or two years before i was taxed with this plot. i did never think i should be questioned about this , or i could easily have brought witnesses that were by at that time . it is true he did come to me , but pray what time of day was it ? mr. hanson . in the morning i think it was . l. stafford . i profess to god , it was after supper ; as i hope to be saved , it was as we were going to bed , to the best of my remembrance . sir will. jones . did you come into the parlour after supper ? mr. hanson . i am not sure what time it was . sir will. jones . if his lordship please to ask him any more questions , if not , we will call another . james ansell . ( who was sworn . ) l. h. steward . what is your name ? witness . james ansell . l. h. stew. where do you live ? mr. ansell . at heywood in staffordshire . l. h. stew. did you live with my lord aston ? mr. ansell . i have been at my lords house at tixal . l. h. stew. but you are not of the family ? mr. ansell . no. l. h. stew. how far is heywood from tixal ? mr. ansell . a mile . l. h. stew. have you seen my lord stafford at tixal ? mr. ansell . i have seen a man they called my lord stafford . i did not know him , but as they told me . l. h. stew. did you ever see dugdale in the company of a man they called my lord stafford ? mr. ansell . two years ago i was at tixal , and there i saw one that they said was my lord stafford walking with mr. dugdale , whom i did know . l. h. stew. where was it ? mr. ansell . in the court at tiaxl , walking together . l. h. stew. were they alone ? was there no body else in company ? mr. ansell . none that i saw ; there might be more company , but i saw no more . sir will. jones . pray , my lords , ask how long ago this was ? mr. ansell . about summer was two years . sir will. jones . if his lordship will ask him any questions now we have done , he may ; otherwise we will call another . l. stafford . my lords , i have recollected my self as well as i can in so short a time , and all i can say is , some of my servants were by , i suppose ; and i do assure your lordships , the other business was above three years ago ; so the fellow does not know what he does say . l. h. stew. will you ask him any questions ? l. stafford . pray ask him how long he saw me in the court with dugdale . l. h. stew. how long was it ? mr. ansell . i cannot tell . i did but walk through the court : i came to speak with mr. dugdale , and he was with my lord. l. stafford . did he hear us discourse , or any word we said ? mr. ansell . no , i did not . sir will. jones . my lords , if you please , before ansell go away , we would ask him a question to another point ; and that is , for what reason dugdale was secured , whether he went away for debt or no ? l. h. stew. do you know wherefore dugdale was secured , or why he went from my lord astons . mr. ansell . i can't tell why he went away ; whether for fear of the plot , or no , i can't tell . sir vv. jones . what discourse was between you and dugdale about it ? mr. ansell . where ? there was a discourse at stafford when he was there . sir vv. jones . but before he went away ? mr. ansell . i came to my lord aston's one day , and told mr. dugdale i heard say he was concerned in the plot ; for i told him i was amongst some people , and they say you are concerned in the plot. and this was about a fortnight after the news was hot in our country . l. h. stew. what said he ? mr. ansell . he laughed at it , and said , god blast him if he knew any thing of it . l. stafford . so he denied it then . sir vv. jones . pray , sir , at that time did he say he knew any thing about my lord aston , and why my lord aston did use him ill ? then my lord stafford objected mr. dugdale was too near the vvitness , and desired he might go down ; and it was ordered accordingly . sir fr. vvin. my lords , we would ask this man what does he know of dugdale's concealing himself after he had heard of the discourse about the plot. mr. ansell . i know not that , my lords ; he was fearful of coming in company : what his discourse was , i do not know . sir vv. jones . my lords , now if it please your lordships , we will go to another particular . yor lordships will please to remember , that yesterday there were two witnesses called by my lord stafford , that is sambidge and philips ; sambidge was the old gentleman that was deaf , and a little passionate too , because he was once summoned to litchfield court. mr. philips was the minister of tixal . and both these did testifie , that whereas mr. dugdale had sworn at a former tryal , that he did give notice before them of the death of sir edmunbury godfrey upon monday , which ( as i take it ) was the . of october , there was no such notice given in their presence . mr. dugdale did affirm , they were by , and that he gave notice before them & others . this was made use of by my lord to invalidate the testimony of mr. dugdale , that he should go and affirm at a former tryal , that he did give notice of the death of sir edmundbury godfrey within two days after he was killed , before any one knew of it ; and dugdale must needs know it from the jesuits : and both of these gentlemen being now in court , do deny that they heard of it at that time . my lords , we shall prove to you here , that he did give notice of it at that time , and that they were both present . for mr. sambidge , it is not so strange he should not observe it , he was very deaf , and he could hardly hear yesterday ; and as he was deaf , so he was very passionate . as for mr. philips , i cannot say that as to him , but perhaps he cannot at that distance of time remember ; but we will prove by undeniable witnesses , that notice was given that munday , and that these persons were by when it was given . sir fran. winn. this witness we use to another purpose besides this ; but we will ask him only to this now . l. stafford . i desire the witnesses may stand by themselves . l. h. stew. let them take care that there be but one witness at a time , and that no body approach them while they are giving their testimony . sir will. jones . we did not make the like desire as to my lords witnesses . l. stafford . in troth you might with all my heart , if you would . sir will. jones . it may be so ; but we did not fear them so much . swear william goldsmith . ( which was done . ) sir will. jones . i would begin with james ansell . ( who appeared and stood up again . ) sir fr. winn. if your lordships please , we would ask him what he knows of a discourse about the justice of peace's death ; to tell the time , and what it was that was said . we only ask general questions . l. h. stew. what discourse did you hear of the murder of a justice of peace , and when ? mr. ansell . my lords , i heard it at tixal . l. h. stew. when did you hear it first ? mr. ansell . the . of october . l. h. steward . who did you hear it from ? mr. ansell . from mr. dugdale . l. h. stew. the letter was dated the . where did you hear of it ? mr. ansell . it was at one elds house , an alehouse in tixal . l. h. steward . where ? mr. ansell . at an alehouse hard by my lords . l. h. stew. who was by ? mr. ansell . when that was spoken , there was i , and vvilliam hanson , and mr. sambidge , and mr. philips . l. h. stew. did dugdale speak with them at that time ? mr. ansell . yes , he was with them at that time , but he spoke with me at the parlor ; for he sent for me into the parlor . l. h. stew. then at the same time he spake it to you , and they were in the house . mr. ansell . yes , he came from them to me into the parlor , and went to them again . sir will. jones . my lords , i hear him speak to the day of the month ; if you please to ask him , if he can tell what day of the week it was ? mr. ansell . it was on a munday . l. h. stew. that is right , the letter was dated on saturday the . of october . sir fr. winn. i would ask him , whether afterwards he came into the room where mr. philips the parson was ? mr. ansell . yes . sir fr. winn. was there any discouse after you came in , about the death of ● justice of peace ? mr. ansell . i cannot tell that . l. h. stew. will you please to ask him any thing , my lord ? l. staff. indeed , my lords , he says nothing concerning me ; therefore i say only this , i desire to know , if he can tell , what time of day it was ? mr. ansell . it was the forenoon . sir w. jones . then call will. hanson again . ( who appeared . ) sir fr. winn. we call him to the same question . do you declare to my lords what you know of mr. dugdale's acquainting you with the death of a justice of peace , and when it was . mr. hanson . i heard mr. dugdale say at old elds house at tixal , there was a justice of peace murdered , that lived at westminster . l. h. steward when did he tell you so ? mr. hanson . the day that i went to run the race , the . of october . sir fr. winn. can you remember what day of the week it was ? mr. hanson . it was munday . l. h. steward . was it the forenoon or afternoon ? mr. hanson . the forenoon . l. h. stew. what company was in the house when he told you of it ? m. hanson . old mr. sambidge , and mr. philips the parson of tixall . l. h. steward . were they in the house at that time ? mr. hanson . yes . l. h. stew. were they by when the discourse was ? mr. hanson . mr , sambidge was going to drink a bottle of ale , as he said , at my lords bowling green ; and for a while he sits down , and presently mr. philips comes in and sits down , and mr. dugdale came out of the parlour into the room where we were come ; said i , what news ? said he , they say there is a justice of peace murdered at westminster . sir fr. winn. was philips in the room ? mr. hanson . yes , he hath forgot it , but he was there . l. h. steward . did philips hear it ? mr. hanson . he might have heard it if he would . l. h. stew. had you any discourse with philips about this since ? mr. hanson . no , my lords . sir fr. vvinn . he is positive both as to the day of the month , and as to the week , and that both of them were present . sir w. jones . my lords , ●e shall prove to you now , that the post which comes out of london on saturday , comes to this place on munday morning ; and those which goes out of tuesday , come there on thursday morning ; and the post which goes out of london on thursday , comes to this place on saturday morning . l. stafford . he says the post comes such and such days , i own it , and in the morning too . sir will. jones . then i go on , my lords , to another point , which will be a farther confirmation of the matter . for , my lords , we will prove to you , and that by men of quality , that the noise of the murder was in that countrey the wednesday and thursday following the murder . your lordships please to observe , sir edmundbury godfrey was killed the twelfth of october ; he was found the thursday following , which was , ( as i take it ) the . or . of october . we will prove now , that the noise and knowledge of the murder was in the countrey about tixal , before he was found here near london . now we only bring this as a confirmation of this matter , that it was revealed at the alehouse , and so it went about the countrey . and for this we call edward birch esquire , and john turton esquire . sir fr. vvinn . before we examine them , i would state the time : sir edmundbury godfrey was missing on saturday , which was the . of october ; his murder was not discovered till thursday . we call these persons to a double purpose ; the one to fortifie what our witnesses have said , and the other to shew , that this man was dispatched by these mens confederates , because they knew it so soon ; which could not have been , but that they were in the conspiracy themselves . l. staff. i desire only that he may say whether he means me among the rest . sir fr. winn. my lord , i will do you no wrong , i speak of those at tixal . ( then mr. birch was sworn . ) l. h. steward . when did you hear of the death of sir edmundbury godfrey , mr. birch ? mr. birch . my lords , i did not hear any thing of the death of sir edmundbury godfrey , till the saturday-post ; but i presume that which these gentlemen call me for , is this : i did hear before thursday , i think tuesday was the first day , that there was a justice of peace of middlesex killed , and it was thought the papists murdered him ; and this on tuesday and wednesday was all over the countrey , that is , tuesday after his death : for i 'll tell your lordships how i came to take notice of it ; for hearing such a report in the countrey , i did not so much take notice of it , but being at the kings bench bar , at the tryal of green , berry and hill , for the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey , i found upon the evidence that the body was not found till the thursday after he was killed ; that made me recollect my self as to what i had heard in the countrey : and as i stood at the bar , i told several gentlemen that i did perfectly remember , before thursday it was discoursed of in the countrey by several gentlemen where i lived . sir will. jones . call john turton esquire . sir fr. winn. some of my lords here , i perceive , desire he should be asked a more particular question . l. h. steward . i desire to ask him this : you heard of it you say on tuesday , that a justice of peace of middlesex was killed ; i desire to know who you heard it from . mr. birch . truly , my lords , i can't tell . for i 'll tell your lordships , i have some certain days that i constantly appoint to be at home in , when people come about business to me . among these people , several came that asked me what news i had from london . i told them , i had received a letter or two by the post , and i shewed them those letters , there was little or nothing in them . thereupon they asked me if i did not hear of a justice of middlesex that was killed , no , said i. how come you to hear it , says one , i come through cank , ( which is within half a mile of mine own house ) and as i came through , there came a person from heywood , that said 't is all the news about tixal and heywood , and that part of the countrey . and this was said to me in my own house . sir fr. winn. how far is heywood from tixal ? mr. birch . about a mile . sir fr. winn. now , my lords , i would ask mr. turton to the fame business . ( mr. turton was sworn . ) l. h. stew. mr. turton , pray hear : when did you first hear in staffordshire of the death of a justice of peace of middlesex ? mr. turton . my lords , there are two races in that countrey , at a place near lichfield , and they are about the middle of october ; the one that year was the . the other the . the one the tuesday , and the other the friday . i was at both of them ; and one of the days , which i cannot be positive in , there was one mr. whitehall , a justice of peace in staffordshire , called me from the company , and desired to speak with me by my self . said he , do you hear any news ? no , said i. do you hear nothing , said he , of a justice of peace that is murdered ? ( i then had not heard of sir edmundbury godfreys being missing . ) no , says he , don't you hear he is murdered ? do you know him ? yes , said i , how do you hear it ? says he , 't is a report about us ; but i did not then believe it ; but the next post-day , which was munday , i did hear it ; it was either tuesday or friday , one of those days . sir will. jones . if it were either one or 'tother , 't is as strange , and the evidence as strong ; for his body was not found till thursday . sir fr. vvin. and will your lordships please to observe , that by that time the report had got the name of godfrey too , when at that same time we in london did not know what was become of him . mr. turton . he asked me if i knew sir edmundbury godfrey : said he , i hear he was an active justice of the peace against the papists ; and he made this inference , we had need have a care what we do , for we shall be all sacrificed . sir will. jones . my lords , will your lordships be pleased to observe , that yesterday there was some witnesses called to disparage mr. dugdale . and the first man as i can remember , was a very substantial gentleman , called mr. robinson ; i think he was not able to give an account of his employment , but he was a gentleman that lived upon his money ; i remember those were his words . my lords , we shall call ( without telling you what they will say ) some witnesses to prove the condition of this gentleman , what reputation he is of , and what is his conversation . and we first call my lady gerard. l. stafford . my lords , pray give me leave to say one word , — but 't is no great matter , 't is not worth the speaking . l. h. stew. what can you say , my lord ? l. stafford . it was only a thought of my own , not worth troubling your lordships with . ( then the lady gerard appeared , and was sworn . ) l. h. stew. does your ladyship know one william robinson ? lady gerard. no , my lords . sir w. jones . he hath several names , we desire he may be called . l. h. steward . call robinson the upholsterer . ( he was called , but appeared not . ) sir w. jones . i perceive we mistake one lady for another . we desire mr. booth , a member of the house of commons , may be sworn . ( vvhich was done in his place . ) l. h. steward . my lord stafford , send for robinson your witness . l. stafford . i believe he is here ; but if he be not , one that belongs to me i have sent to see for him ; whether he be a good or a bad witness , i do not know personally . sir vv. jones . mr. booth knows him very well , he saw him yesterday , and so we may venture to ask him the question . l. h. steward . did you see robinson the witness yesterday ? mr. booth . yes , my lords , i did . l. h. stew. do you know him ? mr. booth . my lords , i do know him very well , though i have not seen him often : for indeed , my lords , he behaved himself so the first time that i saw him , that i believe i shall never forget him . my lords , i am better acquainted with his character than his person , though i know the man very well ; and truly the first time that ever i was in his company , he gave me no incouragement ever to desire it again ; for if you please , i 'le tell you how i came to know him . he told your lordships that he came into cheshire at a cocking ; it was at that time that i saw him , for upon the sunday after the cocking , i was invited to a neighbours , about two miles from home . we were set down to dinner , and we had not sat long ; but this man comes into the room where we were ; there was an empty place at the lower end of the table , and he sits him down , and began a discourse to ridicule the lords day , in such a manner as i never heard the like . and the rest of his discourse was full of a great deal of contempt of god almighty , and all that was sacred . all his discourse at dinner was very prophane . it was not in mine own house ; and because it was not taken notice of by the master of the house , and he coming under the protection of a young gentleman , i did not what else i should , for i should have made him hold his tongue , or have used it to better purpose . the whole of his discourse was so atheistical and prophane , that i never heard the like in my life . when dinner was done , he used a great many inticements to draw the company into play , by asking what would they say if they should see such and such things to be done ; and at length he pulls out a great many dice out of his pocket , and behaves himself in that manner , as people do that would draw in others to play ; and they that had better skill in it than i , said that they were all false . when i saw this , i desired him to leave our room , or to forbear ; for , said i , if this be the entertaintment of the day , i must leave the company : then they commanded him to desist . this is all that i do know of my own knowledge . but i shall acquaint you what i believe , for i have heard it from very considerable persons , whom i dare credit ; for the man run much in my mind , because i never saw so ill a man in my life . coming home , i was speaking to some of my family : says i , yonder i met with the strangest fellow that i ever saw in my days , he is fitter to be hanged than any thing else . oh , sir , said they , there is such a fellow hath cheated i know not how many at the town where the cocking was . the next day , i think it was , or shortly after , i had occasion to go to that town ; and many people came and complained to me of his cheats , to a very great degree . they asked me what they should do : said i , you have nothing to do , but indite him for a cheat. why , said they , will you take no course with him ? said i , what course can i take ? i am turned out of the commission of the peace , else i know enough to bind him to the good behaviour . after this i had occasion to go into lancashire , and there i found he was better known than trusted . there were very loud complains against him , and some would have given twenty pound to meet with him . i heard afterwards , he went into staffordshire , and he changed his name where ever he went : but he soon discovered himself , and all thereabouts he goes for a notorious cheat. this is all i can say of him . l. stafford . my lords , be pleased to give me leave to say one word : i assure you , if i had thought this man had been such a fellow as now he proves , i would not have brought him before you . i never knew what he was in my life , nor heard of his name till saturday last . l. h. stew. it may be so , my lord. but your lordship must take notice , that this is the man that gave the most important evidence , that dugdale should corrupt him to swear against you for money . l. stafford . give me leave to observe upon that , my lords , that if dugdale knew him to be a cheating fellow , he might think him the liker to take money to forfwear himself . sir will ▪ jones . my lords , we shall not reply now , but observe anon , how this cheating fellow comes to swear for my lord at this time . but we desire an honourable peer of this house may give some account of him , and that is , the noble lord the earl of maclesfeld ; i think he may be known to your lordships . then the earl of maclesfeld stood up . l. h. stew. pardon me , my good lord , my lord must be sworn . e. of maclesfeld . before i am sworn , i would know of your lordships whether i should be sworn or no ; for your lordship shall not make me be sworn , unless my lords say i should . l. h. stew. i would not offer it , if there were any colour of doubt in it . ( then my lord was sworn . ) e. of maclesfeld . my lords , i have nothing to say against this man but what he said to me , and before a justice of peace too ; for i did take this man when he had run away from my lord gerard. he had cheated many of his servants ; i catched him on the way running to play his tricks somewhere else , and i intercepted him ; but though i was a justice of peace there , yet because it was in a manner my own case , i would not commit him , till i had carried him before another justice of peace . so the man comes up to me , says he , my lord , have you a mind to have your son-in-law bubbled ? i have been only teaching him how to avoid being cheated : i acknowledge my self to be a cheat , and i would teach him to avoid them . i am going now into staffordshire , and that was all i intended to his lordship . i am a rogue i confess it . and upon this a justice of peace comes in , and while they were examining of him , we bid some that were by to search him , and they found in his pocket false dice ; and truly the justice nor i did not know whether they were true or false . says he , you don't know what to do with these , but i do . this is all i can say ; but in all the three counties of staffordshire , cheshire , and lancashire , there are several men that i see here , that know his life better than i do ; for 't is his common practice : and i believe , my lords , the judges must know him , for it was his common practice at all assizes and great meetings to play these pranks . sir will. jones . my lords , we will not trouble your lordships any further as to robinson : if he were here , perhaps my lady would know him ; but having two such witnesses , i think we need not trouble our selves nor you any more about him . l. h. stew. have you done with my lady gerard ? sir will. jones . yes , and we beg her pardon for this trouble . my lords your lordships will be pleased to remember , there was one holt was produced as a witness by my lord stafford ; and your lordships , when you look on your notes , will remember , he testified to this purpose , that dugdale sent an horse for him to stafford-town ; which horse brought him to the star-inne , and there dugdale did offer him forty pounds to swear , that one mr. moor carried away evers the jesuit , my lords , we will call some witnesses to this mr. holt ; you will find him to be something akin to mr. robinson , and , as we suppose , of nothing a better reputation than he . the witnesses will give you an account of his pranks . call sampson rawlins and lander . rawlins stood up , and was sworn . l. h. stew. what is your name ? vvitness . sampson rawlins . l. h. stew. what do you ask him ? sir william jones . we desire ▪ to ask him if he knows samuel holt the black-smith . l. h. stew. do you know holt ? rawlins . yes . sir fr. winn. acquaint my lords what reputation he is of , where he lives , and what he is . rawlins . he is counted to be a very lewd loose fellow . l. h. stew. why so ? sir will. jones . what hath he done ? rawlins . he is counted a drunken lewd fellow . sir will. jones . is he of an ill reputation in the countrey where he lives ? rawlins . yes , he is so . l. h. stew. for what ? rawlins . 't is said in the town he keeps another mans wife . sir will. jones is there any other fault he hath ? rawlins . he said there were none but rogues would take mr. dugdale's part ; whereas i never knew any harm by mr. dugdale , and i have known him this fourteen or fifteen years : i dealt with him , i was taylor to the family , and he ever paid me very honestly and well . sir vv. jones . have you heard of mr. holt any other ill thing besides what you speak of ? rawlins . he broke open my lord aston's wine-celler , and stole several bottles of wine , wherefore my lord aston bid mr. dugdale send him to the goal : but he curryed favour with mr. dugdale , and so kept in with him , that he afterwards begged for him of my lord to forgive him . and now he comes to evidence against mr. dugdale , that was his sure stedfast friend , and saved him from the goal . l. stafford . i would ask this witness a question . — rawlins . and because i took mr. dugdale's part , saying , he was an honest man ( and he was so to me and all others , as far as ever i heard ) he met me and would have murdered me . l. h. steward . when was this ? rawlins . since last term , when i was up here . and likewise sawyer took a pot , and would have dong'd my brains out . sir fr. winn. my lords , i think this man was summoned as a witness , to attend at my lord aston's tryal . what occasion brought you to london at that time ? rawlins . i was subpoena'd up . and when i came home to my wife and children , they grosly abused me , and said i was a rogue , because i came up upon his majesties service . l. stafford . pray , my lords , ask him whether holt was my lord aston's servant or no. l. h. stew. was holt a servant to my lord aston ? rawlins . he was a smith hard by his gate , and he worked to the family . l. h. stew. were you subpoena'd up to the tryal of my lord aston ? rawlins . yes . l. h. steward . and it was for coming to that tryal he offered to murder you ? rawlins . yes , i have several witnesses of it . and by the blow that thomas sawyer gave me , for a good while i could not lay my head on the pillow . sir will. jones . call thomas launder , ( but he did not appear , being gone away sick . ) sir will. jones . because we would not lose your lordships time , seeing the man we call for , is gone away sick , we will call a witness as to another of my lords witnesses , john morral . call thomas thorne . ( who was sworn . ) sir fran. winn. my lords , if that other man come by and by , we hope your lordships will give us leave to ask him a question , to the point which we are now gone over . but my lord stafford did produce one john morral a barber that lived at ridgley , who said , that money was offered him to swear against sir james symons , and mr. howard , and others . we call this witness to give your lordships an account what this morral is , and how he hath behaved himself in this business . sir w. jones . what do you say about john morral ? do you know him ? thorne . yes . l. h. stew. what do you know of him ? thorne . i know he is a man that use to come often to my lord aston's to tixal , to trim him , he is a poor fellow that walks up and down the country , and hath little or nothing to live on . l. h. stew. is he poor and needy ? thorne . yes , he hath been sued for money , and i have been contributory to keep him out of prison . sir w. jones . i ask you in general , is he of a good or bad reputation ? thorne . indifferent . sir will. jones . 't is modestly said . my lords , your lordships have heard what kind of witnesses have been brought against us . for two of them , you have had particular matters ; for a third , our witness speaks modestly , that he is a man of indifferent reputation . but now , my lords , we must prove what endeavours have been used to get other witnesses against our witnesses ; and for that . i desire to call one simon vvright , to tell your lordships what hath been offered him to swear against dugdale , and by whom . ( vvright stood up and was sworn . ) mr. foley . my lords , we desire this witness would give your lordships some account , what endeavours have been used by offers of money , or otherwise , to make him swear against dugdale , and by whom . l. h. stew. hath any body endeavoured to perswade you to swear against dugdale ? vvright . yes , my lords . l. h. steward . tell your whole story , who it was , and what was offered you . vvright . the first time i was employed was presently after the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey ; and it was by one mr. plessington , that was in custody about that matter . and he sent me on sunday morning , to the marquess of vvinchesters , to desire him , to consider what a charge he lay at . and my lord did send him word , he could not expect to be discharged so soon . the tuesday after he was discharged . and afterwards coming unto me , i told him , i was glad he had so good friends to get out so soon . he told me , were i in the same condition , i should have as good or better . whereupon mr. plessington and i were as good friends as any about the town . i was his barber , and barber to mr. dugdale , and we were all great cronies . and plessington told me , if i could find a way to take off his evidence , or destroy him , i should have seven hundred pounds . i went to inquire out where i might have a security for the money . and mr. reeves , an apothecary in chancery-lane , did profer me his note , and so did mr. dewy the scrivener . but i did not , nor had the money . and several times , particularly at the tryal of mrs. price , and mr. tasborough , they would have had me sworn quite blank , that he would have hired me to have sworn against them . and afterwards they would have had me own i was forsworn , and they would get me a pardon . l. h. stew. what had you sworn ? vvright . what i heard mrs. price say at the horse-shoe in chancery-lane , as to the blasting of dugdale , as may be seen in the tryal . l. h. stew. who offered you that seven hundred pounds ? vvright . my lord bellasis's steward . l. h. stew. what is his name ? wright . plessington . sir fr. winn. my lords , i think he says he was to swear against mr. dugdale , i desire he would explain himself more particularly , and tell who it was that offered him any money to swear against dugdale ? vvright . mr. plessington , my lords . and since the tryall of mrs. price , they did persuade me to write a paper for the blasting the reputation of dugdale , and to shake his credit by it . and that they carried to mr. drayton , and sir james symons , and they being satisfied , would have me write again to those gentlemen , and they framed a letter for me to write . and thereupon mr. longmore ( i know the gentleman if i see him again ) told me that sir james symons was better able to perform than dugdale was to promise ; and if i would stand by it , i should be an happy man. l. h. steward . what had you said in that paper ? vvright . i had said according as they directed me , that mr. dugdale , would have given me money to swear against sir james symons , and mr. gerard. l. h. steward . did you swear that ? vvright . no , i did not , but i was to have done it . l. h. steward . how came it to pass you did not agree with them ? vvright . my lords , i have had four pounds in hand , and that i had by reason poverty came upon me . and my lord bellasis's steward came and lay with me , and spent twenty shillings upon me ; but finding that i was not absolutely true to them , nor like to go through , they distrusted me ; and i borrowed an horse of captain chetwin , and got down into the country , where i have been since july last , till i was fetch'd up by a messenger to come and give evidence for the king. and there i received a letter from my lord aston's agent , that if i would call at stafford and come up with my lords witnesses they would bear my charges up to london . i have the letter in my pocket . l. stafford . if it please you , he may shew the letter , ( which he did . ) clerke . this for simon wright , a barber at _____ deliver with care . subscribed , your loving friend _____ abnett . symon wright , i have just now received a letter from the lord stafford , wherein my lord mentioned wright to be one of his vvitnesses , and desired me forthwith , to give wright notice , that if possible , he should be at london on saturday night next , his tryal being to be on the tuesday after ; therefore if he pleased to come to him , he should give him money to bear his charges up , and he should come up with my lords vvitnesses . abnett . ( this is the substance of the letter as it was taken . ) sir w. jones . i presume your lordships will be pleased to take notice , he was intended a witness for my lord , and it was supposed then that he was able to say something , but he was not produced by my lord yesterday . l. stafford . pray , my lords , give me leave , as to this witness , i desire if you please , i may have time to prove something against this man till to morrow . i have enough against him . mr. serj. maynard . you will find another witness , i suppose , by that time . l. stafford . no , i will not find him , i have him already , i have enough against this fellow . l. h. stew. you shall have time to say what you will , my lord. mr. serj. maynard . i would my lord would name his witness . l. stafford . i will name him to you since you ask it , 't is dodd , he knows what i mean well enough . vvright . i don't know him , my lord , i 'le assure you . sir vv. jones . my lords , we will go on now to another matter . my lord stafford was pleased to object , that mr. dugdale did talk much of letters , and proceedings , but was able to shew none of them . my lords , we will give an account how that comes about . mr. dugdale as in part hath been proved already , was apprehensive of being accused for the plot ; nay i think we shall prove , he was afraid he had been in the proclamation against those traytors and jesuits that were fled ; we shall prove , that mr. dugdale to secure himself , and his then friends ( for he was not then come over to make any discovery ) did burn a great many letters and papers that did relate to those proceedings , and did not leave any thing remaining , hoping thereby to prevent a discovery . we will call witnesses that were by when it was done , and i think that will be some answer to this objection . call elizabeth eld , and anne eld. elizabeth eld sworn . sir fr. vvinn . my lords , if your lordships please , we would ask her this general question , what she knows of mr. dugdale's burning a great many letters and papers , at what place , and about what time . elizabeth eld. i cannot possibly say to the time , i burnt some writings for him when he went away , he desired me to burn them , he did not tell me what writings they were . he said , the times were troublesome , and if he should be sick upon the road where he was going , he would not have all his papers seen , but he desired me to burn them . and i took and burnt them all but one book ; and my sister asked if that book should be burnt , he said , no , there was nothing of treason in it ; i asked him if there were any thing of treason in the others , and he said , do you think there was ? sir vv. jones . how long was this before he went away ? elizabeth eld. that morning when he went away . sir w. jones . how many papers were there ? elizabeth eld. i cannot say how many . sir will. jones . i do not ask you the number , but the quantity , was there a bushel ? elizabeth eld. i cannot say , they were roll'd up , and put in his pockets and his breeches . l. h. steward . were they parchments or papers ? elizabeth eld. they were papers . l. h. steward . were they letters ? elizabeth eld. i did not see what they were , but they were wrapt up together , they might be the accompts of the house for what i know . sir fr. winn. but she says , as i take it , that mr. dugdale said there was treason in them . elizabeth eld. no , he said , did i think there was ? he said , it was no matter for burning that little book , there was no treason in that , and when i asked him if there was any in the others , he said , do you think there was ? l. h. steward . was it one or two bundles ? elizabeth eld. there were several bundles , they were not tyed up , but taken in handfuls and thrown into the fire . mr. foley . if my lord stafford will ask her no question , we will call up another . elizabeth eld. my lords , i did see mr. dugdale take a glass of cyder , and i heard him say , and wish it might be his damnation , and he might sink in the place where he stood , if he knew any thing of the plot. sir w. jones . i pray what religion are you of ? i don't ask you to disparage you . elizabeth eld. a roman catholick . l. h. steward . when was it that he said that ? elizabeth eld. when he was in staffordshire . anne eld was then sworn . mr. foley . tell my lords what you know of any papers that were burnt by mr. dugdale , or by his direction , and at what time . anne eld. mr. dugdale came to my fathers house over night , and the next morning ( before he went away ) he brought a great many papers he had in his breeches , and in his pockets , bundled together , and he desired us to burn them in the flame of a candle . l. h. stew. why did he desire you to burn them ? anne eld. he said , the times were troublesome , and being to travel , he was to go to diverse places , and if he were taken , people would think him a plotter , having all those papers about him . l. h. stew. did he burn the book at that time ? anne eld. no. l. h. stew. why not ? anne eld. i found that book , and asked him if that should be burnt , he said , no' lay that by , it may do good seven years hence , there is no treason in it ; says my sister to him , is there any treason in the rest ? says he , do you think there is ? that was all . sir will. jones . not to trouble you longer ( my lords ) upon this , your lordships will be pleased to remember , yesterday my lord stafford was pleased to offer by way of evidence , as if mr. dugdale was a man of an ill reputation in these particulars , that he had defrauded my lord aston , that he was a mean man , run in arrear to my lord ; and that being in necessity , he became a fit instrument to give false evidence . we shall shew , that mr. dugdale was a man of estate ; that both before , and since he came away from my lord aston , he hath made it his business to desire my lord to come to accompt ; that he hath pressed him , and that he does believe , and hath reason so to believe , that there is money coming from my lord aston to him , and that a considerable sum . now , my lords , if we shall make it appear , that he hath made it his business to come to accompt with my lord , i hope it will not be supposed that he is afraid of it , or so needy , or so mean. for this we call michael noble and stephen colledge . ( michael noble sworn . ) sir john trevor . what do you know of mr. dugdale , and my lord aston ? mr. noble . my lords , i can say little or nothing as to mr. dugdale , for that i have never been acquainted with him , but since the plot , and he came to be an evidence ; but mr. dugdale desired me to assist him as much as i could , to make up his accompts with my lord aston . and we were twice at the tower , one time we spoke with my lord with great difficulty , another time we could not see him . there were three books of accompt , two my lord would let us see , but the third , wherein all the discharges were , as mr. dugdale said , he would never let us see , that is all i can say . then stephen colledge was sworn . l. h. stew. what is your name ? witness . stephen colledge . sir will. jones . declare to my lords , what you know concerning mr. dugdale's pressing my lord aston to accompt with him . mr. colledge . in january last , i went along with mr. dugdale , at his request , to the tower , with one mr. noble a barrester of the temple , and one mr. boson of lyons-inn , in order to the making up accompts between mr. dugdale and my lord aston ; for he told me he was going thither for that end : when we came thither , we met with one captain hawley , who belongs to the lieutenant of the tower , and we desired him to go to my lord aston , and tell him , mr. dugdale was there , in order to make up his accompts with him . he went and brings an answer back again , that my lord was not at leisure to speak with mr. dugdale then , nor none of us from him . and mr. hawley said , he was then going up with the lords to nine-pins . mr. dugdale faid , he was very ill used , for he had been several times there before , and he could not be admitted to speak with him . he hath a little book says he ( meaning my lord ) wherein there is an accompt made up under his own hand of almost two or three hundred pounds , which sum i cannot say , but one of them i am certain of , which he hath denyed several times that he had it , ( but i can prove that he hath it ) if he will be pleased to produce that book , we need not be a quarter of an hour in making up the accompt . he did speak of some other sums he had to place to accompt too , but so much was made up already . but captain hawley saying he would not speak with him , nor any of us from him , i did take the liberty to say to captain hawley , that it was hard his lordship and his party should abuse mr. dugdale at that rate , to make him his debtor : for now i understood by what mr. dugdale said , my lord was his debtor . and said i , if i can perswade mr. dugdale he shall publish his case , for the protestant interest suffered by it , that he should be made a debtor to my lord when he was not so . and i believe capt. hawley told my lord aston what i did say , for when he came back again from my lord aston , he said my lord did acknowledge he had that book , and it was ready to be produced , but he would stay till a councellor of his came out of the country , and till he had spoke with the lieutenant ; for he would not speak with mr. dugdale unless the lieutenant were by , and in three or four days time he would send for him ; but i never heard that he sent for him ever since . if it please your lordships , i have one thing more that i remember : there was a young man that belonged to my lord aston's family , that heard mr. dugdale was at captain hawley's chamber , and came to see him , and paid a very great respect to him , and would stand bare to him , though mr. dugdale desired him to put on his hat several times . some of us asked him , whether mr. dugdale was thought to be such a knave , when he lived with his lord , as they would have made him since . no , said he , mr. dugdale was as honest a gentleman as ever lived in our family . i remember my lord aston's man said this to us then . l. stafford . my lords , will you be pleased to give me leave , if i speak impertinently i am under your correction , i conceive i shall have something to answer this , but i would first know whether i may desire of your lordships , that i may have my lord aston here to give an account of this matter . sir will. jones . if he were here he could not be heard , being a person accused for the same offence . l. h. stew. my lord , he stands indicted for the same treason , and cannot be a witness . l. stafford . i beg your pardon , my lord. nicholas boson was sworn . l. h. stew. what is your name ? witness . nicholas boson . sir vv. jones . declare to my lords what you know concerning mr. dugdale's pressing my lord aston to come to an accompt . mr. boson . in january last , i met with mr. dugdale , and one mr. noble , and one mr. colledge . and mr. dugdale desired us to go down with him to the tower. he said he had an order of the council to pass his accompts with my lord aston ; and when we came there , we enquired for captain hawley , and desired him that he would acquaint my lord aston , that he was there to accompt with him . captain hawley went up to my lord aston , and brought word back again , my lord was not at leisure , or would not speak with him , or to that effect : whereupon mr. dugdale said , it was very hard that he should be aspersed to owe my lord mony , and he would not come to accompt with him . for my lord aston had a book or books in his custody which he would stand by , and they would determine the business between them ; that my lord aston was almost two hundred pounds in his debt . and pray , says he , captain hawley , do me the favour to go to my lord aston again , and desire him that he will be pleased to produce that book or books . if i owe my lord any money i am ready to pay him , and if he owe me any , i hope his lordship will do the like by me ; as i am sure he does . two hundred pounds . captain hawley went away , and brought this answer , that his lordship would send for him in some short time , assoon as a co●nellor did come out of the country , whom he had entrusted with his books ; and that was one birch , as near as i remember . sir will. jones . we have done with this witness . and because we desire to conclude as to mr. dugdale , we shall call some persons of quality as to his reputation , my lord having gone about to make him a man of no reputation . mr. boson . i can speak too about the boy that came in . sir vv. jones . there is no need of that now : we shall trouble you no further , sir. your lordships will be pleased to observe , that mr. philips , the minister , that was one of my lord stafford's witnesses , did say , mr. dugdale was a man of whome many spoke well , and some indifferently , and perhaps that is the case of most good men ; for scarce any are so good that all speak well of them ; but that many should speak well and some indifferently of him , may be the lot of a very good man. we shall call some witnesses , and begin with mr. vvhitby a justice of the peace , that will tell you he hath known mr. dugdale long , and what reputation he is of . thomas whitby esq sworn . sir john trevor . my lords , we desire your lordships would be pleased to ask him what reputation and credit mr. dugdale was in , in my lord aston's service . mr. vvhitby . my lords , i have known mr. dugdale to be a servant to my lord aston this nine or ten years ; he was steward to him , and there was no other person between my lord and him ; he received my lords rents and debts for him , exchanged his lands for him in forty places , i exchanged some land with my lord my self , and he was the man that did it . he was very hard for my lords advantage , and did what he could for my lords profit . sir john trevor . what do you know more as to his dealing ? mr. vvhitby . he was a person that was next to my lord , and did rule and govern the rest of the family . all the servants were under him . sir john trevor . was he looked upon to be an honest man in his dealings ? mr. vvhitby . as to what i had to deal with him he was an honest man , i never heard the contrary . i have heard some tradesmen complain that he hath put them off without money , would not pay them what my lord owed them . l. stafford . i desire that mr. vvhitby may be here when i shall have occasion to say something to him . sir vv. jones . that will be , i hope , by and by , for we have almost done . call mr. vvilliam southall . ( vvho was sworn . ) l. h. stew. what is your name ? vvitness . vvilliam southall . mr. foley . give my lords an account how long you have known dugdale , and what you know of him . mr. southall . my lords , i have known mr. stephen dugdale about eight years . mr. foley . how hath he behaved himself ? what reputation hath he born ? mr. southall . truly he hath always had a good repute , not only with my lords tenants , but also with the workmen , and those people that had dependance on the family , and truly i never heard any ill report of him , but only what is spoken of now of late . sir fr. vvinn . were you very well acquainted with him ? mr. southall . yes , but never had any business with him . several discourses i have had with him about the popish religion . sir john trevor . my lords , i only observe this , this gentleman is coroner of the county , and hath a general knowledge of the county , and must know most men there . sir fran. vvinnington . you are coroner of the county of stafford , sir , i think ? mr. southall . yes , i am one of them . mr. foley . what was he in my lords house ? mr. southall . bailiff , and a kind of governour , providing meat , and paying workmen , most of the things of the family went through his hands . sir fran. winn. my lords , this gentleman is a coroner of the county , and can speak materially to other particulars besides this of dugdale's reputation ▪ for he was a person who was present when he made his first discovery of this plot , and was very instrumental in prevailing with him to do it . he will give your lordships an account of the whole business , and i would rather he himself should relate all the progress of it , than take upon me to recite any of the passages . mr. southall . there was the latter end of november ( . ) a report that mr. dugdale was gone away from my lord aston's , suddenly and strangely , and it was the common report in the country that he was in the plot , and was fled for it . in the beginning of december i went through a town called great heywood , a mile and a half from tixal , where my lord aston and mr. dugdale dwelt . i called at mr. thomas whitby's house , the gentleman that was up here lately , and he was telling me , dugdale was come again and apprehended by the watch at heywood upon suspicion . he told me further , he would make no confession of the plot , though he had been under examination before sir vvalter bagott , mr. kinnersley , and i think he said sir thomas vvhitgrave . but he told me divers passages by which we both suspected he might be concerned and know of the plot. we thought so from the various reports and rumors we had heard in the country , and from those great grounds of suspicion that were given us . as i returned from heywood , i resolved i would speak with dugdale the first opportunity , for i had a strong perswasion i could prevail with him to make a discovery of the plot , but before i did speak with him , there was one goldsmith my kinsman , had some difference fallen out between him and mr. ansell , and mr. dugdale , touching a deed , the deciding of which they had referred to mr. dugdale . and he desired me to go to mr. dugdale to stafford with him , i was very glad of the opportunity . ansel was to bring one hanson , mr. goldsmith was to bring me , and mr. dugdale was to bring one mr. gerrard , that was concerned in the premortgage , that we might all have discourse together . i promised to meet them at the time appointed , and accordingly the th . of december , two days before christmas-day , i came to the place in stafford , where dugdale was , about ten a clock in the morning , where they met according to their promise . we had not been in the house longer than a quarter of an hour , but the kings business , which i thought was a business of greater weight than any particular business , did stick much upon me , and i resolved before i spoke to the particular business about which we all met , i would first speak to mr. dugdale to put that in execution which i had resolved . after a short space of time i desired mr. dugdale that i might speak with him in a chamber privately between him and me ; he told me , if i would go into the next chamber to his , he would come to me . accordingly i went , and staid a short space of time , and mr. dugdale came to me . i desired him to make the door to , which he did , and i began thus with him . mr. dugdale , ●●id i , for some years last past , since i came to be acquainted with you , i have always had a good esteem of you , and you a good report in the country where you live , and now there is an opportunity put into your hands to serve his majesty and his protestant subjects , if ( as an honest man ought ) you will discharge your duty . mr. dugdale replyed , sir , what do you mean ? why said i , i mean this in a few words , here is a plot discovered in london , and if it be in london , i conceive it hath been in part acted at tixal , and if there , of necessity , you having such a government and rule over that house , it is impossible but you must know it . he looked upon me very earnestly , and gave me a smile , but answered me not ; i replied to him again thus , said i , there is a natural allegiance which every subject owes to his soveraign , and by that it is required , that if any subjects know of any plot or any conspiracy against his person and government , they ought in conscience to discover it , therefore mr. dugdale , said i , discharge a good conscience , and tell what you know , for it is commonly suspected you are concerned in the plot. he answered , i have taken the oaths of allegiance and supremacy . when and where said i ? before his majesties justices of the peace at stafford , said he . then said i , there is not only that natural allegiance which every subject owes to his prince , but the oath of almighty god lies upon your conscience , therefore discharge a good conscience ; and tell your knowledge . he stood pausing a little while , and by and by , said he , if i should make any discovery , how should i be secured of my life ? you need not question that , said i , nor his majesties gracious pardon which he hath promised in his proclamation ; have you seen the proclamation ? yes , said he . said i , you have but a short time , a day or two to discover in , for this is the th , and as i do conceive , you ought to discover before the th ; he stood pausing a while about the time , said i , you need not question his majesties gracious promise , and to incourage you thereto , there is not only an assurance of pardon , but a promise of reward of two hundred pounds . said he , if i do discover any thing of my knowledge , i matter not , nor desire ( i don't know which it was ) his majesties money , so i may be secured of my life . upon this , my lords , said i , sir , you need not question his majesties gracious promise , my life for yours , if you have not his pardon , but i will take special care about it , for i will send up a letter to london , directed to some of the lords ( which i accordingly did ) and i will also speak to captain lane , who is a worthy gentleman to interpose in it too . then said he , i will make a discovery of the plot. then , my lords , he told me first some particular passages relating to this lord at the bar , and also concerning mr. evers and mr peters , now in custody , and some other particulars ; i wished him that he would speak no more at that time . and when i parted with him , forthwith i consulted with my self what i ought to do , in point of law ; i knew , i must discover , that a further discovery might be made of what had passed between us . then i went to mr. freek , who was either mayor or justice of peace in stafford , and told him he must come with me to serjeant parry's . he asked me what to do . i told him when he came he should know : he accordingly came , and took short notes of a further discovery , and mr. freek he certified it up to mr. chetwyn , who was then at london . upon the day following the th . i rose and went to one mr. vernon , one of his majesties justices of the peace , and told him what had happened , and he sent for captain lane another of his majesties justices of the peace , and they took an examination of him . i have done , my lord , with reference to his discovery , and the time . l. h. steward . do you remember what he mentioned of my lord stafford ? what he said of him ? mr. southall . truly , my lords , i can only tell what he said at the first examination , he told me the first time my lord stafford spoke with him was at tixal-hall , nigh to the gate-house , betwixt the gate and the hall. my lord was going into the hall , and my lord stafford told him , it was a very hard thing , or to that purpose , that they could not say their prayes but in private , and after told him the same day or night t'one , that they had some work to do , and he might or must be instrumental in it . this was the effect of what he told me passed the first time . another time i think he told me he was to have five hundred pounds to kill the king. lord high steward . when did he tell you so ? mr. southall . not till captain lane examined him , which was the second time he was examined ; which was about the th . l. h. stew. did he swear that before vernon and lane ? mr. southall . yes , he did , i could give your lordships a breviate of what he swore then . l. stafford . i desire he may give that breviate . mr. southall . i took some notes of what he swore then . l. h. stew. have you them by you , or about you ? mr. southall . yes , my lords , i have . l. h. stew. produce them . mr. southall . i took this upon some paper i had in my pocket , and is the substance of what he swore . ( which he delivered to the clerk. ) clerke . december the th . . mr. dugdale informeth , that in september last , he met in tixall , the lord stafford , nigh to the gates , who said , that it was sad they were troubled they could not say their prayers , but in a hid manner , but suddenly there would be a reformation to the romish religion , and if there be a good success we shall enjoy our freedom . and that upon the th . day of september , . the said lord stafford told this informant , that there was a design in hand , and if he would undertake in it , he should have a good reward , &c. and make himself famous . the same day this informant went up into mr. francis evers chamber to know what my lord stafford meant by his words ; and he first made him swear secresie upon his knees , and then told him , that he might be a person employed , and have a good reward , and make himself famous , if he would stand instrumental with others in taking aatay the kings life , by shooting or otherwise , and need not fear , for that the pope had excommunicated the king , and that all that were excommunicated by him were hereticks , and they might kill them , and be canonized for saints in so doing . and that the design was as well to kill the duke of monmouth as well as the king. december the th . . this informant saith , that since the th . day of september last , the said lord stafford did promise him five hundred pounds as to the carrying on of the plot , and that mr. evers should give him instructions about the same . and that the lord stafford told him , he did not doubt of his fidelity , for mr. evers had given him a good character to be trusty . and that the lord stafford told this informant , that there was a design to take away the life of the king , and the life of the duke of monmouth , and that several others were to be imployed in the design besides this informant . and that this had been throughly considered of to be the fittest way for the establishing of the romish religion . and that at the said time , the said lord stafford laid his hand upon his head , and prayed god to keep him in his good mind , and to be faithful to what he had intrusted him in , &c. and this informant further saith , that he doubting of the lord stafford's payment , the said mr. evers promised him the making good of my lord stafford's promise , &c. and further saith , that he saw a letter directed from my lord stafford to mr. evers , and he read the same , and knows it to be my lord stafford's writing , and that therein was written , that things went on well beyond the s●as , for the carrying on the design , and so he hoped it did do here in england , &c. sir will. jones . my lords , we will examine no further as to mr. dugdale : but will conclude with this witness , and i think he speaks fully to him . the next witness we called was dr. oats , and your lordships have been pleased to observe , that what exceptions have been made against him , have not been so much by witnesses produced , as by opposing one part of his testimony to another , what he swore at one time to what he swore at another , to which we shall give an answer when we come to sum up our evidence ; for there will be no need of witnesses to what is objected against mr. oats , but only of observations ; but as to the third witness turbervill , we have something to answer of witness , and some●●ing by way of making observation . we will first call our witnesses . then mr. southall desired his paper again , which the court told him he should have a copy of from the clerk. sir w. jones . and our first witness is to this purpose , it was objected against mr. turbervill — l. h. steward . have you done with dugdale ? you have forgot to give an answer to the objection about the point of time when hobson told him of the design . sir will. jones . my lords , that will be when we come to make our observations , we shall not answer that by witnesses ; when we come to sum up our evidence , i doubt not but we shall give a sufficient answer to that objection . but to go on with what is to be answered by testimony , your lordships will be pleased to remember , that turbervill did inform your lordships , that he had some converse with my lord stafford at paris , being introduced by some of the fathers . my lords , we shall call a gentleman that had happened to be there at that time , that will tell you though he did not know my lord stafford , yet he knew that turbervill did converse much with an english lord in that place where my lord does acknowledge his lodging to be . he will give you some further account how turbervill went to diep in expectation of my lord , and how he had a message from the lord , though he did not know my lord stafford . he will give you a further account how mr. turbervill was earnest with him to go to calice , and then told him , he might go over with my lord at that time . the use we make of these particulars we will forbear to mention till we sum up our evidence . we desire to examine mr. thomas mort. ( who was sworn . ) sir will. jones . we desire to ask mr. mort , whether he knew mr. turbervill at paris , and at what time . l. h. steward . what say you , sir ? mr. mort. yes , my lords , i knew him , it is now five years past since we were in paris . he and i had been intimately acquainted , before we lived in the same family . i was several times in company with him , and many times in his brothers company , which was a monk , and i heard him say his brother had an intention he should be of the same order . and some time after that he altered his resolution , and designed for england , and i had such a design too to go from paris , where i was an apprentice . and being acquainted with him i resolved to go over with him , and he told me , his brother the monk had introduced him into the favour of a lord , as i take it , it was my lord stafford , as well as i can remember . and that there was a vessel to come to diep , a yaught , and we should go thither to go over with my lord. and mr. turbervill told me , we must make as much hast as might be , for it were better to be there a day or two too soon than too late . we went to diep , and when we came there , the vessel was not come . and when we had been there a fortnight , or thereabouts , we were put to a great deal of inconveniency by reason of our long stay there , and , i think , if i mistake not , i or some of the company said , cursed is he that relies or depends on a broken staff , alluding , as i believe , to my lord stafford's name . mr. turbervill told me , if we did go to calice , we might go over with my lord ; but how or by what means he understood the vessel would be there , and my lord go that way , i know not . but we did not go thither , we had another opportunity ; there was a small vessel whether a fish-boat , or a coal-vessel i cannot tell , a very little one it was , but we took the opportunity , and came over in it . sir will. jones . my lords , we shall make use of it in due time , we only call him now to prove his converse with a lord at paris . l. h. steward . did you ever see turbervill at a lords house in paris ? mr. mort. no , my lords , not that i can remember ; but i think as near as i remember , i will not be positive , i walked about luxenburgh house while he went , as he said , to the place where the lord lodged , i was thereabouts till he came . l. stafford : in what street was it ? mr. mort. indeed i cannot tell . sir w. jones . this man is very cautious . l. h. steward . can you tell the lords name ? mr. mort. i do not remember his title , but i think it was my lord stafford . sir william jones . pray who were you servant to ? who were you bred under ? mr. mort. my lord powis . i served as page to him , when mr. turbervill was gentleman-usher to the young lady , one of his daughters , since married to my lord molineux . sir will. jones . will my lord please to ask him any questions ? if not , we will go on . l. stafford . no , not at present . sir will. jones . well then , my lords , we desire to call one mr. powell , a gentleman of grays-inn , to tell you when he first heard mr. turbervill speak of this evidence he hath now given . mr. powell was sworn . sir w. jones . pray will you give an account what discourse you had with mr. turbervill about the plot , and when . mr. powell . about this time twelve-month we discoursed about it , and he told me , that he had much to say in relation to the plot ; but truly he did not name any particulars to me at that time . sir will. jones . where was this , we desire to ask him ? mr. powell . it was at the kings-head tavern in holborn . sir william jones . are you sure it was a year ago ? mr. powel . it was about this time twelve-month . sir will. jones . what was the reason he did not think fit then to reveal it ? did he tell the reason ? mr. powel . i think he gave me a reason , that he was something cautious , because he feared he might disoblige his brother at that time . sir vv. jones . did he give you any further reason ? mr. powel . i think he said he was afraid he should not have incouragement enough , for he said some of the witnesses had been discouraged , and he was afraid he should be so too . sir vv. jones . now we shall call a few witnesses to mr. turbervill's reputation which have known him a good while . mr. hobby . l. h. stew. was this time that mr. powel speaks of , that he did discourse with him , before or after that of yalden ? sir w. jones . my lords , we do not know of any discourse with yalden , nay we believe none such was . this witness speaks of a year since . l. h. steward . what time does yalden speake of ? sir vvilliam jones . february or march last , and this was a year ago . l. h. steward . this was then before that certainly . sir vvilliam jones . we desire mr. arnold a member of the house of commons may be sworn . ( which was done in his place . ) sir vvilliam jones . do you know mr. turbervill ? mr. arnold . my lords , i do know him very well , and i have known him these two years , he came recommended to me from his grace my lord duke of buckingham ; my lords , presently after the breaking out of the plot , he was sent down into our countrey , by the lords of your lordships house that were of the committee , and a particular recommendation from the duke of buckingham to me , to give him direction and assistance to find out a priest , one charles prichard , and i think also if i mistake not , one morgan , my lord powis's priest . i spoke with him before he went , i sent letters down with him , i spoke with him afterwards , he hath been in my family some time ; he hath behaved himself very well there , and in several other sober families nearly related to me . i have not heard a better character of any man from all sorts of people , than of him in my life . sir vv. jones . did he tell you any thing of the plot , sir ? mr. arnold . my lords , i did several times find by him , that he knew much ; having conversed both in france and here with jesuits and priests . i pressed him oftentimes to discover his knowledge , and to come in to the council ; but he gave me such answers why he did not , that i could not answer . sir vvilliam jones . what were they sir ? pray tell us mr. arnold . that the witnesses that were come in , were in danger of their lives ; that they were discouraged , that they were discountenanced ; and as long as the duke of york had that power in the conncil that he had , and my lady powis's brother had that power over those countreys where he lived ( which his lordship is often pleased to call his province ) he durst not do it for his life . then mr , hobby was sworn . sir will. jones . do you know mr. turbervill , and how long have you known him ? mr. hobby . my lords , i have known mr. turbervill near four years . l. h. steward . what account can you give of him ? mr. hobby . my lords , my first acquaintance with him , was at my brothers house in glamorganshire . when i came there , my brother shew'd him me , and told me he was a very worthy man , but his friends had cast him off , because he would not take orders in the romish church . he lived at my brothers above a year ; and when he came thence , my brother writ a letter of recommendation to my father to receive him there , and do him all the kindness he could . he came to my father's , and stay'd there near half a year , or thereabouts , i cannot tell to a month or so . since , i have known him often in this town , and been in his company ; and i never knew , nor heard , but that he behaved himself like a worthy honest gentleman ; but as to any thing of the plot , i know nothing . sir vv. jones . we ask you not to that : where is mr. matthews ? then mr. matthews a divine was sworn . sir vv. jones . mr. matthews , pray tell my lords , whether you know mr. turbervill , and how long have you known him ? mr. matthews . yes , my lords , i have known mr. edward turbervill for about four years last past . l. h. steward . go on , what do you know of him ? mr. matthews . my lords , he lived some time in my neighbourhood ; i never knew him guilty of any ill action at all , but a person of a very fair reputation . he acknowledged himself a roman catholick , and was pleased to give me the liberty to talk to him . i found him inclinable to hearken to me , and to those reasons i offered to him ; and i found he had a mind to quit that religion , being convinced by the arguments i gave him , and as several times he hath since told me , those were some of the great motives of his coming over from the romish to the protestant communion . l. h. stew. what were the motives ? mr. matthews . one was the hazard i told him of , in his living in the roman communion as to salvation ; another was the excellency of the doctrines of our church , its principles and practices . l. h. steward . did he acknowledge to you he knew any thing of the plot ? mr. matthews no , not a syllable of it . sir will. jones . we don't call him to that purpose . then another witness was sworn . l. h. steward . what is your name ? witness . william seys . sir w. jones . pray will you acquaint my lords , what you know of mr. turbervill . mr. seys . i have been acquainted with him this two or three years , and i never knew him guilty of any ill action my life . i never heard of any body that could asperse him , but he hath behaved himself like a very honest , civil gentleman . sir will. jones . where were you acquainted with him ? mr. seys . here in london . then captain scudamore stood up again . sir will. jones . he was sworn before , we desire he may speak to mr. turbervill's reputation . capt. scudamore . my lords , i have known mr. turbervill for these three quarters of a year , i have been acquainted with him in london , he hath been much at my house , and all that while i saw nothing in him , but that he is a very honest gentleman . sir william jones . my lords , i think we have but one matter more , which we should have mentioned before , but that our witness was not come : but i hope we shall have the favour of some honourable lords that do know the thing , and i think there are many more that can prove it . my lord stafford who is very ancient , it may be , may not remember matters exactly , i blame him not ; oblivion is the great infirmity of old age . he was pleased to say yesterday , he had so good health , that he had not been lame , i think he said for these forty years ; but at last his page said for the last seven years ; and i shall confirm our proof to that time . my lords , i think there are some honourable lords here , that have seen this noble lord , that says he was not lame in so many years very near about the time he was confined and imprisoned , go lame and come lame to the house , and ease himself by holding up his legg sometimes . my lords , i do not say , the circumstance is very material , but only to shew my lord may forget himself , which i shall impute to his old age. l. stafford . i will acknowlede it , if your lordships please , i did say i had not been lame with the gout so long , no more i have not . i was troubled with the sciatica many years , but 't is above eight or nine years since that , and i took so much opium that that and my going to the bath cured me . i have often come lame to the house out of weariness and old age , but if ever i put my foot upon a stool for the gout , or was ever so lame as to put my foot upon a cushion to ease it , i will admit what he speaks to , i 'll acknowledge thus much to save time . sir will. jones . seeing my lord is pleased to go off from it , i 'll call no witnesses to it . l. stafford . i go off from nothing , i was lame three or four years when the king came in : i went to the bath , and afterwards into germany , and what with opium and the bath i was cured , and i have not been lame these eight or nine years . i have not had the gout in my foot for these many years , and i never was so lame to put my foot on a stool to my remembrance . sir vvill. jones . i do not think we shall need to trouble your lordships more with this matter , that my lord was lame sometime he is pleased to confess . one witness says that he put his foot on a cushion , my lord does not acknowledge that . l. stafford . i was never lame at paris . sir vvill. jones . that a man that is lame does sometimes ease his foot is no hard consequence i think . l. stafford . i deny i was lame then , i walked about the streets of paris , i desire i may not be misunderstood . sir vvill. jones . i must then desire under his lordships favour , if he will not acknowledge it to be within seven years , that we may prove it , and falsifie his witness , the page . l. stafford . i have gone with a stick to the house , i acknowledge it , and been lame with weariness . sir fr. vvinn . the objection went to the credit of our witness , and therefore we desire to answer it : my lord was not lame , as he says , for so many years , but if we prove that within less time my lord hath been lame , it will take off that objection from our witness . and we desire a noble lord or two of this house may testifie what they know . and first the earl of stamford , ( who was sworn . ) earl of stamford , my lords , i think i have not had the honour to sit in this house much above seven years , but long since that time i have seen my lord stafford come lame into the house of peers , and that is all i can say . l. stafford . i have come lame with a stick to the house i say . sir fr. winn. my lords , we desire that noble lord , my lord lovelace may be sworn , ( which was done . ) lord lovelace . my lords , the account that i can give your lordships is this , i cannot ascertain any time , but i am sure , and i do declare it upon my honour , and the oath i have taken , that i have seen my lord stafford lame in the house of lords within less than this seven years . l. stafford . if he goes home to the tower he may see me lame , but never put my foot upon a stool . sir will. jones . my lords , your lordships will be pleased to remember we did call a witness , one thomas launder , and the account we had of him was he was gone sick from the bar , he was very sick indeed , but being just now brought , we desire he may be heard though it be out of time , we call him to the reputation of holt. thomas launder was sworn . sir john trevor . do you declare to my lords whether you know samuel holt ? launder . yes my lords , i do . l. h. steward . what do you know of him ? launder . he is a smith , my lords . l. h. steward . what reputation is he of ? launder . indifferent , my lords . sir william jones . what do you mean by that , good or bad ? speak plainly . launder . a drunken sot , a man that will drink and rant and tear the ground , and sing two or three days or a week together , and lose his time . sir fr. winn. i would ask this man whether he was summoned as a witness upon any tryal in relation to the plot ? l. h. stew. were you ever summon'd as a witness about the plot ? launder . my lords , i was summon'd concerning my lord aston's tryal , and i came up with my lord aston's people as an evidence . sir w. jones . had you any offer of money , and what sum ? launder . yes , my lords . sir fr. winn. acquaint my lords with it . l. h. stew. who offered it you ? and when ? and for what ? sir will. jones . for what was that money offered you ? launder . the money was not absolutely offered me , but i was to have an horse to ride on , and money in my pocket if i could take off james ansel , dugdale's evidence . l. h. stew. who came and offered it to you ? launder . i was sent for by mr. fox to tixal hall , and there was my old lords brother for one , and mr. thomas aston that is this young lords brother , and mr. francis aston who is my lords eldest son were in a room together , and this thomas sawyer that was here , and more were in the room when they promised all these things . l. h. steward . if you would do what ? launder . if i would take my oath that this james ansell was a perjured rogue . l. h. stew. did all they make you this promise ? launder . yes , my lords . mr. fotey . it was a consult together about taking off the evidence . sir will ▪ jones . my lords , we have done with our . witnesses , if my lord stafford please to conclude we are ready to do so too . l. stafford . what should i conclude ? about those witnesses you have now brought in ? sir w. jones . your lordship may please to conclude your evidence , we are ready to conclude on our part . l. stafford . these new witnesses , must i say what i can say against them presently ? i cannot do it , i know very few of them . l. h. steward . have you any witnesses here , my lord ? l. stafford . i cannot possibly have any . for i did not know nor guess these people would be brought against me . they are persons i know nothing of . ansell i have seen four or five times , i may have seen the rest , but i do not know them to be able to give an accompt of them . l. h. stew. if you have any witnesses here to support the credit of your own witnesses that have been impeached , you may call them . l. stafford . i have none , my lords . l. h. stew. will your lordship recapitulate the material parts of your defence , that the process may be closed ? l. stafford . i am very unready for it , my lords . let me ask mr. vvhitby a question , if i must have no more time . mr. whitby stood up . l. h. stew. there he is , what would your lordship have with him ? l. stafford . i do not know the gentleman . mr. vvhitby . nor i your lordship . lord stafford . i ask him upon the oath he hath taken , i know he will speak truth , whether he did not some years ago tell my lord aston that is dead , this lord's father , that dugdale was a knave , and persuaded him to turn him away , ( i say not it is true , but i have heard so ) and desired him to tell his son so , that he might quit himself of him ? l. h. steward . what say you , mr. vvhitby ? mr. vvhitby . my lords , about three or four years ago my lord aston that is dead ( i believe it may be two years last april ) sent for me to dine with him , and when i came thither , he told me , says he , mr. vvhitby i have sent to you to acquaint you with a thing , but i do not believe it before i tell it you . what is it , said i ? said he , stephen dugdale hath acquainted me , that you have employed persons upon the water to destroy my water ; said i , my lord i never endeavoured it ; he said , he did believe me ; then i told my lord ; said i , mr. dugdale is a dishonour to the family , upon this accompt , because many times people come for money and he will not let them have it , but puts them off and makes them complain ; says my lord , my son is now at standall , but i will tell him as soon as he comes home , and if you will bring the persons that have waited so long for their money , and made so many journeys , you shall hear what he will say to it . within a while my lord aston that now is , came down , and i went thither to see what became of it . and i went to the b●wling . green where my lord and his son were ; but my old lord said nothing to me of it , nor his son neither . within a few days my old lord aston's gentleman came down to my house ( one mr. ashley , ) said i , i wonder whether my lord aston hath acquainted his son with what i told him ; says he , he hath , but it signifies nothing , for he will hear nothing against mr. dugdale . this i speak upon my oath , 't is true . l. h. steward . your lordship sees what this gentlemans opinion was of dugdale then , he would hear nothing against him . will your lordship conclude ? l. stafford . my lords , i am mighty unready , and know not which way to turn my self , upon those new things they have brought , for i knew nothing of it , nor expected any such thing . but will you be pleased that i may call simon wright again . ( vvho stood up . ) l. h. stew. what would your lordship have with him ? l. stafford . i have nothing to say to him , but to desire him to seé this letter , whether it be of his own writing or no. l. h. stew. look upon that paper , shew it him , ( which was done . ) l. h. stew , is it your hand ? wright . this is my hand . 't is part of that i was hired to do . there is another of a great deal more consequence than that . l. h. stew. deliver it in , and read it . clerk. june the . . sir , i can i bless god with a safe conscience declare upon oath , that mr. dugdale hath been unkind to me in taking his opportunity of my poverty by reason of a private meeting of us two by his appointment , he did that time proffer if i would swear against you and mr. gerard , he would protect me as one of the king's evidence , and i should not want money ; and in the hall at westminster he said , if i did discover it that day at mrs. price's tryal he would set me in the pillory : this i have owned to his face , and shall not go back from this and more , neither for fear nor favour . so i rest as you shall find by your servant , sim. wright . l. h. steward . is this your hand ? vvright . yes my lords , this i was advised word for word to write . l. h. stew. who pen'd this for you ? did you pen it your self ? vvright . no , my lords , they penn'd it , and a great while i would not set my hand to it , but jermin drayton said i need not fear , i was not to swear against the king , l. h. steward . who is that ? vvright . he is butler to mr. heveningham . l. stafford . see what you have under his hand , i have no more to say to him . vvright . but by their perswasion at last i did wright it , and a great deal more then that . sir william jones . i desire to ask mr. vvright whether they would have had him swore this . l. h. stew. were you desired to swear this ? vvright . no , my lords , they never put me to swear it ; for they told me i was not to swear against the king ; but if i would be so kind to make an affidavit before a justice of peace , i might then go where i would into the country , and i should have money to bear my charges . sir vvilliam jones . who would have had you swear it before a justice of peace ? wright . jermin drayton and mr. longmore , where he is i can't tell , but he told me that sir james symons was better able to perform than dugdale was to promise . mr. serj. maynard . the same thing that was done by redding , he was convicted for it , and stood in the pillory . sir will. jones . we desire to know whether he was ever with sir james symons himself , and what he offered ? wright . i was once with him at the kings bench , i dined there : after i had written the paper that was read , he gave me s. and said , he hoped i would not go off from what i had said , and he hoped i was sensible his gratuity would not be wanting , and was sorry he had not occasion to use me . sir will. jones . my lords , we have done with him ; i only observe that my lord stafford was pleased to produce this paper ; he was master of it , and had it in his keeping . sir fran. vvinnington . wright says , there is another paper of more consequence ; i wish his lordship would produce that also . l. stafford . i did not know of this till just now it was delivered into my hands . did you see mr. longmore before this letter was writ ? vvright . both before and after , to the best of my remembrance , and at the time when sir james's tryal should have been , at the sign of the crown in kings-street in bloomsbury . l. h. steward . my lord , will you conclude ? l. stafford . my lords , i desire your lordships pardon ; i do not know how really to go about it to night . i will obey your commands , though i fall down at the bar. i protest before god , i was all night so ill of the cramp , that i had no repose . if you will have me go on , i will , if you will give me but a little time to recollect my self . l. h. steward . god forbid , when your lordship is to speak upon so great a concern , and a matter of that importance as this is to you , you should be put at the end of the day , and in the midst of all your thoughts , to sum up your evidence . i do believe , if you do desire time till to morrow , my lords will give it you : and if you would have me move my lords in it , i will. l. stafford . one word , i beseech your lordships — sir vvilliam jones . we do not oppose it . l. stafford . my lords , i desire one thing , i am very ignorant in this matter , and do not understand it ; i would desire your lordships directons to know in what method i must proceed . l. h. stew. your lordship is to proceed thus if you please ; your lordship is to recollect and recapitulate all the proofs you have made ; and you are to enforce them as well as you can , and make such observations upon them as are for your own advantage : and this your lordship must do for the fact : if there remain a doubt in law which you may have occasion to move , counsel may be demanded ; and if it be considerable and worthy of debate , you may have counsel heard to speak to it . but the process is closed , no more witnesses are to be heard : there remains only observations upon the fact or law to be made . l. stafford . are no more witnesses to be heard ? l. h. steward . no , i think not : 't is agreed on both sides , all is done : but my lord , i would not have your lordship to understand me so , that if so be you have yet any material evidence , that you think it does concern you to produce , and you have it ready to morrow , before you sum up the evidence ; i believe then , if you move my lords , they will let it be heard : otherwise i think here is an end of witnesses . l. stafford . i desire the paper i gave in , may be returned me . l. h. steward . but in order to this , my lord , if your lordship does think , you shall use or produce any other witnesses , it would be of importance that you would name them now . l. stafford . truly , my lords , i will go hunt for none ; and i think i shall have none : only one thing i must beg your pardon in ; which is the only thing i must have witnesses to , to answer what they have said , that my lord aston would not come to accompt . my witnesses are very near me , mr. lieutenant , some in the tower , and one mr. birch . l. h. steward . my lord stafford , bring those to morrow that you name to night . l. stafford . if you please that i may have that paper , wright's letter . e. of shaftsbury . my lord steward , i desire that letter may be kept . l. stafford . it is a paper that was given me , and i would return it : if you won't allow me it , i can't help it . l. h. steward . 't is desired it may remain where it is : but your lordship may have a copy if you please , attested by the clerk. is it your lordships pleasure to adjourn ? lords . ay , ay. l. h. steward . this house is adjourned into the parliament chamber . then the lords withdrew in their order , and the committee of commons returned to their house , where mr. speaker resumed the chair . a message was sent from the lords by sir timothy baldwin and sir samuel clark. mr. speaker , the lords have sent us to acquaint this house , that they have ordered william viscount stafford to be brought to his tryal at the bar in westminster-hall to morrow morning at ten of the clock . the commons adjourned to eight of the clock the next morning . the fifth day . saturday , december . . about the hour of ten in the morning , the lords adjourned into vvestminster-hall , going thither in their former order into the court there erected , and mr. speaker having left the chair , the commons were seated as before . the court being sat , proclamation for silence was made , and the lieutenant of the tower commanded to bring his prisoner to the bar , which being done , the lord high steward began as followeth . l. h. steward . what says your lordship my lord stafford ? my lords are pepared to hear what your lordship can say in the summing up of your defence . l. stafford . my lords , i must needs say to your lordships , that you have given me favour and time all that i could demand . but i am a very unfortunate man in many things , unfortunate in being brought hither upon this accompt , and truly , my lords , i am very unfortunate , that i had not yesterday , before i went away , the names of some material witnesses , and some that i did not know of , till within this half quarter of an hour ; i humbly offer this to your lordships consideration as the state of my case . 't is true , my lords , i acknowledge i was bound up to mr. lieutenant , and some others that i named , but i humbly tell your lordships this , that i am informed of some material witnesses more this morning . l. h. stew. are the witnesses you speak of , any of the witnesses you named last night ? l. stafford . no , my lords , 't is one of my lords , a peer of this house . l. h. stew. how many more have you ? l. stafford . five or six . l. h. stew. to what point ? l. stafford . to discredit the witnesses that have been brought against me , both some of those that have discredited mine , and some that have sworn against me particularly . l. h. stew. there is no end of this way of proceeding . l. stafford . my lords , i profess to your lordships , in the presence of god , i do it not for delay , nor did i know of them then . l. h. stew. what say you to it gentlemen ? sir vvill. jones . my lords , i am afraid this proceeding at this rate will never have an end . if his lordship have any witnesses to any material part of his defence , though he hath bound himself up , i should not be against hearing of them . but if his new witnesses are only to the reputation of our witnesses , then perhaps we must have some other witnesses brought to discredit his , and we not knowing who these new witnesses of his would be , may need perhaps another day to bring testimony against them , so that i know not when the matter can have an end . your lordships know , there is a rule in the civil law , in testem , testes , & in hos , sed non datur ultra ; and i hope beyond that you will not go ; truly , for my own part , i did not expect any other witnesses , but those he was pleased to name last night , in relation to the matters of accompt ; if he please to call them , we shall hear them ; but for any other , considering it would prolong the tryal to another day , and this cause hath had four days already for hearing , we hope they shall not be admitted . l. stafford . my lords , i profess to your lordships , if i were alone concerned in it , i should not have moved it , but when i consider my wife and family are concerned , i hold my self bound by the duty i owe to god and them , to propose this to your lordships ; i am pressed to it by my wife just now , since the house came in . i protest before god , for my self , i can look death in the face without being afraid , but when i consider in what condition i shall leave my wife and family , it moves me . ( then he wept . ) i am not concerned at it for my own part , for i know i am innocent , but i cannot forbear tears when i consider them ; 't is not for my self , i take god almighty to witness that i weep , i could be content to speak a few words to your lordships , and submit to your judgment , and take my death , if you decree me to it , and not defer it till munday ; but i cannot forbear shewing my grief when i consider my wife and children . l. h. stew. pray , gentlemen , consider , whether it be not a saving of time to let my lord examine his witnesses , else my lords must withdraw to consider of his desire ; 't is true , in the practice of chancery we do examine to the credit of witnesses , and to their credit , but no further , but what my lords will do in this case i know not till they are withdrawn . sir vvill. jones . my lords , we have that opinion of our own proofs , and are so desirous of an end of these proceedings , that rather than we will give your lordships the trouble to withdraw , if my lord will please now to tell us the number and names of his witnesses , we shall not oppose their being heard . sir fr. winn. if your lordships please , one word further ; we know well of what concern this is to my lord , and no body desires to have him crampt in his evidence . the objection did lie fair on our side , it looking like a designed delay , and yet we are willing to comply with this reservation , that if there should be any such witnesses produced now , as may require an answer , that we may not be foreclosed of advising with one another about it . l. h. stew. no , by no means . my lord stafford , your desire is consented unto upon these terms , that your lordship will now name the persons and number of the witnesses you will call . mr. hambden . and the points to which you will call them . l. stafford . i humbly thank your lordships for the favour , but it is an impossibility for me to do it : if your lordships will give me a quarter of an hours time , i will name them , i cannot name some of them , one is my lord ferrers , another is one dr. taylor , dr. watson , dr. elliot , and one william dale . l. h. stew. now to what points will your lordship call these witnesses ? l. stafford . my lord ferrers is to speak his knowledge of southall the coroner , and that is as to dugdale , my lord knows that person dr. vvatson , and they are to invalidate the testimony of dr. oats , and there is another mans name , i forget what it is . sir will. jones . to what point is he to be a witness ? l. stafford . 't is to dr. oats , and the evidence against me . mr. serj. maynard . so there will be pretences made every moment of some new witness to put off this cause . lord stafford . under your lordships favour , i scorn to make any delay . if you think this may not be material , or not fit to be done , i will quit it . l. h. stew. go on my lord. l. stafford . will your lordships be pleased to begin with my lord ferrer s ( who stood up in his place . ) l. h. stew. my lord ferrers , your lordship is called upon by my lord stafford , and you being a witness for the prisoner , and against the king , your lordship is not to be sworn . lord ferrers . my lords , what i have to say concerning that person my lord named , southall , is only upon hear-say , and upon the reputation he hath in the countrey ; for i have no acquaintance with him , nor do know him at all : but the reputation that hath been given me of him in the countrey , is , that he hath been a very active man in the late times against the king , and is counted to be a very pernicious man against the government . lord stafford . call dr. taylor . servant . i know not where he is , he can't be found at present . l. stafford . then call vvilliam dale in the mean time . my lords , this same southall i never heard of , the other man that drew up the affidavit , that is feake , i know , he was named by southall to joyn with him in the examination , i can tell what he was , i can prove that he is an attorney , that he was mayor of stafford , and proclaimed the king traytor . l. h. steward . who was that ? lord stafford . one that drew up the affidavit of dugdale , feake mentioned by southall . l. h. steward . who is your next witness , my lord ? l. stafford . one vvilliam dale ( who being called appeared . ) l. h. steward . what is your name ? vvitness . vvilliam dale . l. h. stew. what do you say ? l. stafford . about dugdale , my lords , what he knows about his offering him any money . sir vvill. jones . we desire to know where he lives ? dale . dugdale never offered me any money . l. h. stew. where do you live ? dale . at owseley-bridge . l. stafford . pray ask him whether dugdale persuaded him to swear against my lord aston something he knew not . l. h. stew. did dugdale ever hire you to swear against my lord aston ? dale . no , he never h●red me . l. h. stew. do you know that he ever hired any body else to swear false ? dale . i do not , my lords . l. stafford . my lords , i most humbly thank your lordships for your favour in giving me the liberty of examining these other witnesses , i shall trouble you no further , nor give no more evidence , only one witness , my lords , i shall trouble you no further , and that is mr. lieutenant of the tower to this point , whether my lord aston did refuse to come to accompt with dugdale . l. h. steward . come , mr. lieutenant , do you know any thing about accompts between my lord aston and mr. dugdale ? mr. lieutenant , my lords , last summer was month dugdale came to the tower , but my lord aston would not speak with him , unless i were by ; so they brought him to my lodging , and he shewed me the books of accompts , itold them i did not understand accompts , but if they would have me be by i would get some body to be present that did , and have them adjusted . mr. dugdale said he whould come another time , but from that time to this i never heard of him . l. stafford . my lords , i shall not trouble you with any more witnesses . my lords , i have now done my evidence . i shall as well as my weak memory and old age will give me leave sum it up , something ( as well as i can ) of the evidence given against me , and for me . truly , my lords , i am able to do it very imperfectly for want of understanding , and truly for want of sleep , but i do not doubt , but that according to the law , as i am informed it is , since i can have no counsel in matter of fact , or to advise me in any thing of that nature , yet i am also informed by the law , your lordships who are my judges , are my counsel . and i do not doubt but your lordships , when you take it into consideration , will supply any defects which i shall commit , which i believe will be many , i shall spend your lordships time as little as i can , though these gentlemen of the house of commons believe i desire to protract it , yet i profess before god i do not . and i declare before them all , and your lordships , i am so satisfied of my own innocency that i would never beg a moments time of delay ; and i know your lordships will take care of the life of the meanest subject ; and though i have had the honour to sit among your lordships as a peer , yet i ask not for your favour , but with your justice too ; i shall therefore sum up my defence as well as i can . for the first witness dugdale he swore i was at a consult at tixal in the end of august or the beginning of september , i have sufficiently proved that in all august i was not there , nor till the . of september . i have proved that his first oath was , i was there in august , and a man that will swear false in one thing is not to be credited in any ▪ i have made it appear to your lordships , that upon the . of september , when he says he was in my chamber and i sent the page to call him , that it is false , it was only he desired he might come to me to get leave that he might go to the race , my lord aston being angry with him for it . this i conceive is proved sufficiently by two witnesses , my man and my boy , and this i think i have proved as positively as can be done . my lords , 't is true , 't is objected against me , that i had said dugdale was never seen alone with me in my life , 't is true , and 't is true ansell swears he brought a footman to me , but he swears it was in the morning when it was at supper , and does not say that he was alone with me . my lords , dugdale swore that he told mr. philips and mr. sambidge of the death of sir edmundbury godfrey on the munday , some swore he said it was on the tuesday , but they deny that ever he told it them , and so he is forsworn in that . and my lords , whether he be a man of any great credit i think i have proved enough to your lordships . 't is proved by two witnesses holt and morrall that he offered them money to swear , as likewise he did to another , one robinson , whom i do believe by the information that was given of him to be a wicked ill man and not to be credited , but being so , my lords , he was the fitter for dugdale's turn . and yet he had so much conscience , though he was a poor and needy fellow , he would not swear a mans life away for money , the other two are without exception , the one they say is an idle fellow , and t'other a man but of an indifferent reputation , how far that will move with your lordships , i submit it to you . i suppose 't is also clear by my witnesses that dugdale is a man of no reputation , having forsworn himself in several particulars , and i submit the credit of all he says to your lordships upon that . the next witness , my lords , is mr. oats , whether he be a doctor or no i know it not , he would not own it here , he , my lords , swears that he saw a commission delivered to me to be pay-master of an army to be raised , god knows when , i never heard when , or where , i suppose it was in the clouds , for i never knew where else . mr. oats all along before swore only that he believed i was in the plot , now he swears i was in it , at mr. fenwicks chamber a man i never saw in my life , nor heard of till this discovery . and that he saw letters subscribed by my name ; but that , my lords , i conceive is no evidence at all , for he never saw me write nor does know my hand , nor does he pretend to know me then , and when he had told your lordships he had a letter of mine , he pretended to look for it , and then said he had lost it , that is , never had it . but besides , my lords , his evidence now does not agree with his former , for i do appeal to your lordships that were in the house then , that he swore the first time , he only saw my name to letters , afterwards he swore ( that is some days after he had ended all his evidence , and knew no more than he had put down then , afterwards he remembers what he knew not before , and swears ) a commission he saw delivered to me : so his memory increases as he hath time to invent , and perhaps by another time it might be much more . but , my lords , i think that one particular , his swearing before your lordships , as 't is entred in your journal , that he had no more to say against any body , and afterwards naming the queen , and now me to have a commission , i conceive is perfect perjury . my lords , mr. oats told your lordships , that he had never been a papist in his heart but ever feigned it ; truly my lords i cannot possibly give over that point , that a man that feigns himself to be a papist or any thing that in the opinion of protestants is so wicked a thing as that , is fit to be believed , if he shall not heartily repent himself , and own it to god and man as an ill thing to dissemble so . but yesterday he with a smiling countenance , and as it were in derision , owns that which must be a very great offence to god almighty to pretend to be of an idolatrous church . i appeal to your lordships whether he be a fit witness , i conceive he cannot be thought a christian , nor to believe in god. i know many wicked and infamous persons have done many wicked things , and yet have been witnesses , but never did any wicked man own a wicked thing , that he might have concealed , with boasting of it , that ever was credited in any thing ; for if he had said i do acknowledge i did dissemble with god and my own conscience , but i ask god forgiveness , it was for a good end and a good intention , it had been something ( though that could not have atoned for so ill a thing ) but shewing no repentance , but rather an impudent affronting of god almighty , i think he is not a fit witness , i appeal to your lordships and the whole christian world if he be . i cannot believe your lordships will condemn me for an opinion which i will go to my death with , and it stands upon me so to do . the last witness , my lords , is turbervill , and he says , in the year ( ) he often discoursed alone with me for a fortnight together at paris . my servants he owns he never saw them , and how he could come for a fortnight together , and not see my servants , i refer it to your lordships consideration whether it be possible . for i 'le tell your lordships , when i had been a few days at paris my landlord came one day to me , and said , you do not do well to suffer any body to come to you without your man be by , for there came yesterday a frenchman to speak with you , and i do not know him , and he went strait up to your chamber without any body with him , 't is a dangerous thing , said he , for i know that frenchmen and people have come up , and been alone with persons , and put a pistol to them , and made them deliver their mony for fear of their lives , therefore pray , said he , do it no more . from that time , which was a few days after , i came to paris the latter end of october , or the beginning of november , no christian soul was permitted to come to me without my servants , how then could he come to me for a fortnight together and none of my servants see him ? my lords , this gentleman very civilly the next day after he had made an affidavit against me would needs mend it , and sir william poultney did acknowledge that he made affidavit one day , that he came to my lord powis's in the year ( ) and the next day amended it to ( . ) now i humbly conceive , my lords , a man that swears one thing to day , which he forswears to morrow is not to be believed ; and the truth of it is , as his brothers prove to your lordships , he came to my lord powis's in the year ( ) and so he forswears himself in every thing , and is in no wise to be believed . he swears to your lordships i writ a letter to him to acquaint him that i would go by calice , and not by diep ; but i have proved i went by diep , and i assure your lordships i have not been at calice , i think , these twelve or fourteen years . i conceive these things are very manifest and clear proofs against him that he hath not swore one true word . he swears that my lord powis , my lady powis , and his friends , perswaded him to go to doway to to be a frier , but not liking it he came over again and was in danger of his life by them ; but the evidence is sufficiently strong in proof that he afterwards was at my lord powis's and was well received , that he lay in the house , and was not in the least injured by them . and for his other relations his brother proves he was not ill used by them . they gave him seven pound to be gone and trouble them no more . he says , i said , he was a coward , and i 'le tell you why i said so , because a captain , that is now out of england , told his sister so , who told me , but that is not very material . my lords , there is one witness more , john porter that swears to your lordships this one thing , that this turbervill swore to him at such an alehouse , he knew nothing of the plot. and then my lords there is mr. yalden , and he is a gentleman of reputation , he said in his company , there was no trade good but that of a discoverer , god damn the duke of york , monmouth , plot and all , for i know nothing of it . truly , my lords , whether he got no money by it or is known since he hath been a discoverer , telling what he knew not so many months ago ; and therefore i submit it to your lordships what he is . my lords , these people that swear against me , there is not one of them a person of any quality or condition , and whether they have not rather sworn for money than the truth , by things that are known , and need no proof , i shall observe when i come to it to argue that point in law ; whether a man that swears for gain is a credible witness or no ? my lords , i have as well as i can summed up that little evidence that was given against me , i cannot better do it in so short a time , for indeed i had but a very short time last night , and i have not slept , i had the cramp so much in extremity that my next neighbour heard me roaring out . my lords , i submit my self to your lordships , and doubt not but that the matters charged upon me will appear to your lordships sufficiently answered . and i beseech your lordships well to consider that one thing against dr. oats , his dissembling with god almighty , and his impudent owning of it . this i do insist upon , and i protest before god almighty , if i were a judge , i would not hang a dog upon such evidence . my lords , i have many points in law to offer to your lordships , and when you please i should do it , i 'le name them to you . l. h. steward . name them , my lord , if you have any doubts in law propound them . lord lovelace . my lords , i would not interrupt my lord , but i think indeed it is no interruption , since his lordship broke off and was going on to another point . but i think i see one of the impudentest things that ever was done in a court of justice ; whilest we are trying a person here for a popish plot , i do see a prosessed papist standing in the body of your house , and that is sir barnard gascoyne . ( who thereupon went out of the court. ) l. stafford . my lords , i do conceive i have cleared my self to your ' lordships of what i am accused of . my lords , the course of my whole life hath been otherwise , i defie any creature in the world to say , that i ever used one disobedient or disloyal word of the king , or did any such act. i waited on the king that now is in the unhappy war that is passed , when i was in a low condition enough as to fortune , and my wife and family were thereby reduced to great streights , for my wife and children lived some five or six years upon some plate and jewels that we had , whereas if i would have come , and been at london , and joined with that party , i could have saved my estate , and lived quietly as others did . but my conscience told me , i ought to wait upon the king , and offer him my personal service , when i could do him no other . i have shewn how the witnesses have forsworn themselves , i shall now , if your lordships please , desire your opinion in some points of law. and though perhaps i may name to your lordships many things that are impertinent , or not to the purpose , i beg your lordships pardon , 't is out of the weakness of my understanding , and i hope you will not think ill , neither your lordships , nor the house of commons , if i should , through ignorance , move things impertinent . the first point of law is this , first , i conceive there is no example or president for it , that proceedings criminal ever did continue from parliament to parliament , and this is continued to three . l. h. steward . speak out my lord , and go on l. stafford . secondly , my lords , i do not question the power of the house of commons in the least , but , my lords , i know they impeach when they find grounds for it without dispute , but i question whether any man , by the known laws of this kingdom , in capital cases , can be proceeded on , but by indictment first found by the grand jury , and not by impeachment by any person , or other body of men. l. h. steward . say on my lord. l. stafford . thirdly , my lords , i conceive there are many defects in the indictment or the impeachment ( indictment there is none ) there is no overt act alledged in the indictment or impeachment , i know not well what it is called . and , my lords , by the act of parliament in h. . c. . nothing from thenceforth is to be treason , but according to the statute of edw. . which includes an overt act. fourthly , my lords , i desire that i may prove that by law they are not competent witnesses , for they swear for money . but my lords , i forgot one thing to say to your lordships as to the evidence , that these gentlemen did endeavour to prove ( i do not speak whether they did or not ) a general plot of the papists , whether they did not , i am not concerned in it , for i say they have not proved me a papist , which i submit to your lordships ; and though any man may know me so in his private knowledge , yet they having not given any proof of it , 't is not to affect me . fifthly , there is is one point of law more , that no man can be condemned for treason , as i conceive by one witness , and there are not two witnesses to any point . these are the points of law , i humbly beg your lordships pardon for the trouble , and desire your opinion in them . sir william jones . my lords , before we make answer to what my lord hath said , i do humbly desire , that for the objection which he hath made against mr. southall , proved by a noble lord of this house ( though i must observe it was not of his own knowledge , but by hear-say , and that matter of hear-say contrary to the act of oblivion ) to the end there may no doubt remain of mr. southall's credit , that a noble lord of this house , and a gentleman of the house of commons ( who both know mr. southall ) may be heard to his reputation . sir fran. winn. my lord ferrers knew him not himself , but my lord brook and mr. gower will give a better account of him . ( then the lord brook was sworn . ) lord brook. my lords , what i have to say concerning this mr. southall is , that he hath been often employed both by my brother and my mother , and they have so good an opinion of him , that they employ him still , and therefore we take him for an honest man , and an able man , or he would not be so much trusted and employed , and i take him to be a very good churchman , for if he was not i would not employ him . l. h. steward . an honest man , an able , and a good churchman your lordship says . lord brook. he receives the sacrament four times a year . sir will. jones . then swear mr. vvilliam leveson gower , a member of the house of commons . ( which was done in his place . ) mr. l. gower . my lords , i have been near years of staffordshire , but did not know mr. southall till this popish plot was discovered . after that i came acquainted with him ( being a justice of the peace in that county ) in court , where i found him to be the most zealous prosecutor of the papists in that country , no man like him . i likewise found several popish priests , had by his means , been apprehended , and imprisoned , and one of them since convicted , who by the way still remains unexecuted in stafford goal . what opinion some may have heard or had of him formerly , i cannot tell , but this i know , that he hath more than once come to desire my assistance , that he might prosecute the papists the most effectual way upon the statutes made for that purpose , and that he did complain to me that he had not met with good usage elsewhere . my lords , i take opinion to be grounded upon principles , and i do observe that those of this country , who do believe this popish plot , and know mr. southall , and are principl'd for the preservation of the king , the protestant religion , and the government , do at this time speak well of him , and those who are not so principl'd speak otherwise . my lords , i was surpris'd when i heard my name mention'd upon this occasion , i have told your lordships all the matter of fact that upon the suddain occurs to me , ( with my own opinion , which i offer with all submission ) and had i had notice , i might possibly have recollected more , which i would freely have declared to your lordships , but this is all that i can now say . l. stafford . my lords , if your lordships please , i would say one word , if you will give me leave , i am very ignorant , and beg your lordships pardon for troubling of you , i humbly desire to know , whether after the points of law are argued , i may speak something not concerning the evidence of the plot , but concerning my self . sir will. jones . my lords , we shall not oppose the saying any thing he can for himself , but we must conclude , and have the last word . l. h. steward . my lord , the gentlemen that are for the house of commons must conclude . my lords will give you all the favour they can , but they must have the last word . l. stafford . i do not oppose it . l. h. steward . therefore you will do well to say all you have to say together . for the points of law , my lords will give no judgement till the commons have answered them , and they i suppose will first sum up the whole proofs , then you may say what you have to say , for they must make an end . gentlemen , will you speak first to the law ? sir will. jones . no , my lords , first to the fact. l. h. steward . go on then . then sir william jones , one of the committee appointed to manage the evidence , began to sum up the same as followeth : may it please your lordships , we have now done our evidence , as to matter of fact , and that which i have in charge at this time , is to remind your lordships of our proofs , to answer the objections that have been made against them , and to make some observations upon the whole . my lords , the members of the house of commons that were appointed for the service of the management of this tryal , those of them ( i mean ) who began the first day , made a division of our evidence into two parts , the one , that which concerned the plot in general , and the other what related to this lord in particular . my lords , as to the plot in general , we did call six witnesses , i know some of your lordships have taken notes , and you have their names , they were smith , dugdale , prance , oats , denis and jenison . my lords , because i will save as much of your time as i can , i will not take upon me to repeat what each witness said as to the plot in general ; but when i come to the ▪ evidence which immediately concerns my lord , i must beg your favour that i may be more particular . i will say thus much for the proofs of the plot in general , that there was by those witnesses so much fully proved , that made it most apparent , that there was a general design amongst the roman catholicks to introduce their false religion into this kingdom , that the jesuits had several meetings to that end , that they endeavoured to do it by several ways , by raising of armes , by collecting of monies , and by designing against the kings life ; nay , they had so far advanced their designs , and were in so much readiness , as they thought it time to appoint officers not only for their army , but for the civil government , as if the work were already accomplished . your lordships were told by one of the witnesses of a lord chancellor , and of a lord treasurer , ( lords now in the tower yet to be tried ) and you were told also of officers for the military part , a general , a lieutenant-general , and this lord at the bar to be pay-master of the army . i shall , my lords , desire to take notice to your lordships , that this design , though it was to be finally acted by other hands , yet was it first contrived , and afterwards carried on by the priests and jesuits . you will find them preparing for it , by making sermons to justifie that doctrine ( which i confess this noble lord denies ) of the lawfulness of killing kings . you will find the priests and jesuits , in their discourses as well as sermons , urging and incouraging their disciples and votaries , to go on with their design of killing our king , and giving that common reason for it , that he was an heretick , and it were meritorious to take him out of the way . my lords , i take notice of these particulars in the general plot , because it may give great light to , and add much to the confirmation of the particular evidence . and , my lords , ( i think ) i may take leave to say , that the plot in general hath been now sufficiently proved . and if we consider what hath been proved at former tryals ( upon which many of the offenders and traytors have been executed ) what hath been published in print , and above all coleman's letters , written all with his own hand , and for that reason impossible to be falsified ; we may justly conclude , that there is not a man in england , of any understanding , but must be fully convinced of the truth of the plot in general . i shall spare to mention the resolutions and declarations of two parliaments , and of both houses in those two parliaments without ( as i remember ) one dissenting voice , expressing their full satisfaction of the reality of the plot ; so that i think now none remain that do pretend not to believe it , but two sorts of persons , the one those that were conspirators in it , and the other those that wish'd it had succeeded , and desire it may so still . but , my lords , i will be the shorter on this part ; for perhaps it will be objected , you have offered a fair proof of a general plot , here are records , votes of both houses , papers and evidences printed , and witnesses viva voce to prove it ; but what is all this to my lord stafford ? my lords , it goes a great way to him ; i do not say to be a convincing evidence , but to make the particular evidence against him highly credible . your lordships cannot imagine , that there are such a store of lords and great men amongst that party ( though there be too many ) that they should have great choice for great offices . your lordships hear how the other great offices were disposed of , and truly i think the merit of this lord amongst that party might very well intitle him to an office as great as this of treasurer of war , or pay-master to the army . but what is the evidence of the general plot ( may some still say ) to my lord stafford ? what do you mention the raising an army ? what do you mention the collecting of money ? what do you mention the providing of arms for ? yes my lords , they are very useful , for they give a a fair introduction to prove against this lord that he was to have this office. if it be proved by other witnesses than those who swear directly against this lord , that there were arms provided , that there was an army to be raised , and the rest ; it proves at least that there was occasion for such an officer as the particular witness proves my lord was to be . my lords , for the other matter that relates to the consultations of the priests and jesuits , and their sermons and discourses ; i desire your lordships to observe that also , which if you do , your lordships will easily perceive what a great influence even that matter hath upon the particular evidence , and how credible it renders the testimony of the particular witnesses . your lordships will find , when my lord was at tixal ( as dugdale gives you an accompt ) there was evers the jesuit , and other priests still at my lords elbow , and egging him on to this business . your lordships will find where oats speaks of him , it is at fenwick's chamber , who was a jesuit , giving him ghostly counsel . your lordships will find , that at paris , where mr. turbervill speaks of him , there were father sherborne , father nelson , and father anthony turbervill . still the priests are about my lord ; and when my lord is among them , or but newly come from them , then he utters the treason of killing the king. and doubtless this trayterous purpose of his did arise from their counsels . so that though our witnesses speak of my lords discourses at several times about killing the king , yet they make them flow from one and the same fountain , the instigation of the priests and jesuits . but now , my lords , to come to the particular evidence , i think i may say , if ever evidence was convincing , this is so . we have brought three witnesses which speak each of them that which is sufficient to prove my lord guilty , and they speak of overt acts too , as i shall observe anon . his lordship was pleased at the beginning of our evidence to desire that the witnesses might look him in the face , and for that he cited two statutes , i supposed he intended the statutes of . & . of edw. . which statutes , or at least one of them , do say , that there shall be in case of high treason two witnesses to accuse , and those two witnesses brought face to face at the time of the tryal . and my lord hath had the benefit of those laws , he hath had two , nay three witnesses to prove him guilty , brought face to face before your lordships , and if these three , or any two of them , deserve to be credited , my lord in this case is guilty of high treason . my lords , i must beg the favour of looking upon my paper of notes , for the truth is , the witnesses are so many , and the proceeding hath held so long , that it is impossible for my weak memory to retain all that was said . my lords , the first witness we began withall was dugdale . and i know your lordships did take notice what he swore , but it will be my duty to remind your lordships , that he tells you , that he had heard of a general design of making preparations to be ready against the kings death , and this for several years past . but as to the matter of hastening the death of the king , that was but a late counsel . he tells you , i think , that about the latter end of august , or the beginning of september , . evers and other jesuits were at tixal , that there was a consult then about the kings death , and that ( by the means of evers , who was a very great man among them , but since fled , and is mentioned in the impeachment ) he was admitted to that consult , and heard particularly what every man said ; and he does take upon him to say , that at that time the matter of taking away the kings life was propounded , and that my lord , the prisoner at the bar , did consent to it . my lords , he tells you further , that upon a sunday morning my lord came from stafford to tixal to masse ; my lord was pleased to observe that we do not prove him a papist , but we prove my lord came to masse , and that i think is one good proof of his being a papist . besides , dugdale swears my lord did then complain , that they had not the free exercise of their religion , that they could not say their prayers openly ; what were they ? not the prayers of protestants , not those contained in the liturgy of our church . he could not complain of any restraint as to them , but complain he did that they had not the free exercise of their religion , but he did hope , if things succeeded well , in a short time , it would be otherwise . this is particularly sworn by dugdale . my lords , his lordship was very much unsatisfied , that dugdale was not particular in point of time , he did talk of some matters to be in august or september , but could not fix to any day . but your lordships will remember , that as to one particular , and which mainly concerns his lordship to answer , he comes to a day , or within a day , for he swears positively , that upon the . or . of september he was sent for to my lords chamber , the servants were put out , that there my lord did propose to him in express terms , the matter of killing of the king. he would have him be an actor in it , and he offered him a reward of l. to perform it . for this which is the most material part of his particular evidence against my lord , he is certain 't was either on the . or . of september ; and he tells your lordships how he comes to remember the time , by a good token , by the foot-race that was then to be run ; and i do not perceive that my lord does deny , but rather acknowledge that dugdale was in his chamber at that time . 't is true , he does deny some other circumstances which i shall answer anon . and here i do think dugdale undertakes to swear to that which will amount to an overt act , and a damnable one too , that is the offering l. to kill the king. but dugdale , it seems , was not willing to depend upon the promises of my lord for so much money , his lordship had not that credit with him ; he repairs to evers , and desires to be satisfied from him whether he might rely upon my lord for so much money , evers told him he might be sure to have the money , and that there was enough in harcourts and other mens hands for the carrying on that blessed design , and that he should have it thence . i might , my lords , remember to your lordships how dugdale does particularly swear concerning another discourse he had afterwards with my lord. that my lord complained of the great losses that had been sustained by him and his friends for the king , how in particular my lord aston's father had lost l. and what resentments my lord had of it ; he said that places of profit were rather bestowed upon those that disserted the king , and were rebels and traytors , than on those that did him faithful service ; and what does he conclude from thence ? he is very angry with the king , and does say that next to the cause of religion ( which was the strongest motive with him to take away the kings life ) the kings ingratitude to his loyal subjects was that which did most offend him . i shall not trouble your lordships with other particular matters which were to serve as incouragements to the design , as that there was to be a pardon from the pope ; that my lord did write a letter to evers , which was shewn to dugdale , wherein he says , that things did succeed very well abroad , and he hoped they would do so at home . i shall only observe that dugdales evidence , as to my lords damnable design of killing the king , is positive and full . and if this be to be believed ( as i hope we shall shew there is no reason but it should be ) then here surely is one sufficient witness to prove my lord guilty of the highest treason . my lords , the next witness we called for against my lord was dr. oats ; and i think dr. oats is not only positive , but he is positive in that which most certainly will amount to an overt act , nay i think to more overt acts than one . the doctor tells your lordships , that having been at st. omers and in spain , he saw several letters that were subscribed stafford ; he did not then know my lords hand , but he saw the letters , and he tells you the effect of those letters . and i remember in one of them there is this expression , that my lord ( the prisoner at the bar ) does give assurance to the fathers that he is very zealous and ready to do them service . doctor oats tells you , my lords , that afterwards coming into england , my lord stafford did write a letter , i think it was to his son , but sure i am the doctor said , he had the carriage of it to the post-house , that he saw my lord write it , he read the superscription , and he swears that the hand which writ that letter was the hand which subscribed to all the former . and so then joyning the one to the other it amounts to as good an evidence as if he had known my lords hand from the beginning . but that which comes home to my lord , is that which doctor oats saw , and that which doctor oats heard ; and they are these particulars which i now mention . first , he saw a commission directed to my lord to be pay-master of the army , he saw it delivered to my lords own hand and my lord accepted it . doctor oats read the commission , and he tells you by whom it was signed johannes paulus oliva , a person substituted by the pope to issue out commissions ; he tells you the contents of it , and of this he swears he was an ocular witness . he tells you of another matter he heard my lord say , as considerable as the other , that when my lord had received the commission , my lord declared that he was to go down into staffordshire and lancashire , where he was to put things in readiness . what were those things ? he had now a commission by vertue of which in lancashire , and the other places , h● was to prepare and gather monies for that army which he was to pay . so much doctor oats doth swear he heard from my lords own mouth . but there is one thing further which i had almost forgot . he doth swear that my lord was privy to , and approved of , the matter of killing of the king. for he doth swear he did hear my lord say at that time , he hoped before he returned , honest william ( who was grove that was executed for this attempt ) would have done the business . and what that business was every man who hath heard of groves treason must needs understand . there is but one thing more that i remember of doctor oats his testimony . your lordships that have a better advantage to write than we , who are crowded together , may have taken notes of more ; but this one thing i do observe , doctor oats doth expresly swear , that my lord bore a very ill mind towards his majesty ; for my lord did in his hearing complain , that the king had deceived them a great while , and that they would bear with him no longer , he should deceive them no more . my lords , our third witness was mr. turbervill , who doth give you an account , that he being first sent to doway , and intended to be entred there in one of the societies , ( he was sent by my lord powis and my lady powis , and some of his relations of that religion , for that purpose ) he did not like the company , he was not pleased with the exercises of that religion , and that with much difficulty he escaped thence and came for england : but finding he was not well look'd upon here , nor well received by his relations , he went over to france . that being at paris he came into the company of the three fathers i named before , father sherborn , father nelson , and father turbervill , the last whereof he tells you was his own brother . that by the means of these priests he was brought acquainted with my lord stafford , and doubtless they were able to make him intimately acquainted with my lord. and it did prove so ; for he tells you , after some time , that in a lower room of my lords lodging my lord proposed to him the business of killing the king. that he did not at all like it , was very unwilling to undertake it , but my lord bid him consider of it , and that he should give him his answer at diep , having enjoyned him secrecy ; but my lord after sent him word he would go by calice ; and the witness afterwards went into england , and from thence into the french army . and this is the substance of what turbervill deposeth . and , my lords , i think it will not be doubted by any man that will consider these three mens testimonies , but that here are two witnesses , if not more , to prove my lord guilty of treason . but my lord has been pleased against them to make several objections ; some have been by witnesses which he hath produced to incounter the proofs that we have offered ; and some of them have been by observations that he hath made upon what hath been said by our witnesses and his . i will keep to order as much as i can not confound the order and method of his defence . the witnesses he first brought were against dugdale , and of them his lordship was pleased to begin with his daughter , the lady marchioness of winchester , and his niece mrs. howard . your lordships , i presume , are pleased to observe what they were called to . they did testifie , that , being at wakeman's tryal , they did hear dugdale swear ( says my lady marchioness of winchester ) that my lord stafford was to come down into staffordshire in june or july , and mr. dugdale was then to receive orders from my lord , and he swore ( as she was pleased to say ) that there was a consult in august at tixall , and my lord stafford was there present . mrs. howard , for i put them together , was pleased to say that she was present at that tryal , and there dugdale swore my lord stafford did come down in june or july , and that my lord was at the consult in august . my lords , i will not make objections neither to the religion of these ladies , nor to the relation to my lord , though those be matters that are to be considered . but that which i shall observe to your lordships , is this , that they do not agree one with another ; for my lady winchester says , dugdale did swear that my lord was to come down in june or july , and mrs. howard says , that he swore he did come down then . now there is a great difference betwixt swearing an intention that a man was to come down , and swearing the very act that he did come down at that time . by which your lordships may observe how hard a matter it is for witnesses that are present at a tryal ( especially at a tryal which did not directly , though it might in consequence concern another person of their relation ) to take notice exactly of things . and truly , my lords , these ladies being of that religion might have so much concern upon them for sir george wakeman , the popish physician , and in him for other their friends of that party , that they might not have so much liberty of thought as to observe exactly all circumstances sworn to by the witnesses , and therefore it is no great matter if they are mistaken in them . but i believe if any one do consult the print ( though it be no evidence nor offer'd as such ) he will find no such thing was at that time sworn , for it is not so printed , and those that took notes did not understand it so . my lords , the next witness my lord is pleased to bring is his servant furnese ; and what is it that he testifieth ? he saith , that he was with my lord the whole time that dugdale was in my lords chamber , and he doth not remember that ever dugdale was there but once , and he doth not remember that ever my lord bid him go out of the room . my lords , it is a very hard matter for a man to come thus in the negative , to remember how often dugdale was there , especially there being no more occasion to take notice of it then , than here appears to be , and that after so long a time . and it is a very hard matter for a servant to gain credit , by saying his master never bid him go out of the room in his life . these things may be done or said , and yet escape the memory of a servant of more age and of less inclination to favour his master then this person appears to be of and to have . therefore i think there will be but a very small matter made of what he said , no force at all in it , and i believe your lordships will give very little regard to it , but rather believe those witnesses that swear positively , that they have seen him with my lord and speak to a familiarity at that time between them . this young man furnese was my lords servant , and of his religion ; and it is considerable whether we have not reason to be afraid that more than ordinary practice has been used to prepare evidence on my lords behalf , which i shall have occasion to speak to when i come to the other witnesses . his next witness , my lords , was his boy george leigh , who is fifteen years of age now , and was eight years old when he came to my lord seven years ago . and he attests the same thing , and to the same purpose with the other . and i think i may leave him with the same answer , for we are nothing more concerned with him than we were with the other . only one thing i would observe , to shew that his memory was imperfect , he doth not remember that dugdale was with my lord at all that day , which my lord himself doth acknowledge he was , and the other witness agrees . so that there cannot be any great weight laid upon what he saith . my lords next witness was thomas sawyer , and he is one of my lord aston's servants , that i desire to observe of him first . and what does he say ? he saith , that dugdale went away for debt . the contrary to which was apparently proved , for we , by our witnesses , made it manifest , that dugdale went away for the matter of the plot ; the fear and dread he was in upon that score : and the circumstance of his being apprehended by the watch at night in his flight , and how he was put to take the oaths , do manifestly prove this . but he says another thing , which i desire may have no weight with your lordships , that dugdale should threaten , that because my lord aston would not own him for his servant , he would be revenged of him . truly , if my lord aston were here to be tried , it would have some weight . but to think if it were true , that he had so sworn , that therefore he would be so wicked as to do mischief to another man , that he would be revenged of every man of that religion , or of every man that came to my lord aston's house ; that cannot be imagined . so i cannot see what great stress , my lords , the prisoner can lay upon it , as to the present tryal , which concerns my lord stafford . but , my lords , i desire to observe , that he says further , that when dugdale went away there was a discourse of a plot ; ( this he helps out dugdale in ; ) and that there was a discourse of the killing of a justice of peace . so that certainly it does shew , that dugdale was apprehensive of the plot. and as to that which he is pleased to say , that dugdale should deny his knowledge of the plot , and take drink , and with execrations forswear it ; it will be no manner of objection at all . for i shall have occasion to shew hereafter , that dugdale at that time was very far from revealing the plot , he had been so long ingaged in , he was in apprehension of the danger of his own life , and southall tells you how and when he revealed it , and by what inducements he was prevailed upon to do it . the next witness my lord called was philips , the minister of tixal ; and truly all that i can accuse him of , is , want of memory , and that is no fault in a man , that perhaps is very studious and careful in his imployment as i hope he is . he tells you , that whereas dugdale swore at a former tryal , that he acquainted mr. philips with the death of a justice of peace of westminster on the munday , that he did not acquaint him with it , that is , he does not remember it , for no man that swears a negative , can swear more . but whether mr. philips evidence be of any consequence to us , we submit to your lordships consideration ; when we oppose to his want of memory , two witnesses that swear he was by when this news was told ; and we are told likewise , as a confirmation of that , by two gentlemen of quality , that the report of such a thing was spread abroad all over that country ; before it was possible for it to come by the way of ordinary intelligence , whether therefore what mr. philips testifies proceeds from any other cause , than want of memory in mr. philips , i must leave to your lordships consideration . but this i would observe to your lordships , that when mr. philips was asked by my lord , whether or no dugdale were a person likely to perjure himself , he could not say so : nay , being asked of what reputation he was of , he said , by some , he was very well spoken of , by some but indifferently ; but i do not remember , that he said , he was ill spoken of by any . so i think mr. philips has rather advanced than prejudiced mr. dugdale's reputation and credit . my lords , i think i may lightly pass over the three justices of peace that were brought to give an account of dugdale's behaviour before them , and not mention them distinctly , because they swear all to the same purpose , that mr. dugdale was apprehended upon suspition of the plot , that he took the oaths , that he was invited and urged by them to make a discovery of the plot , which he then denied to have any knowledge of : for all this will be answered , when we come to re-mind your lordships of mr. southall's testimony . his lordship was pleased in the next place , to offer to prove dugdale an ill man , by endeavouring to suborn witnesses : and in the first place he called robinson , who testified a very unlikely thing , that mr. dugdale should call him in the street , and bring him to an house , and offer him money to swear against my lord stafford ; which money he had in an handkerchief , but did not tell him what particulars he should swear to : nay , and this after he had told him he could swear nothing . and it does not appear , that dugdale had any manner of knowledge of him , or that this gentleman , robinson had any knowledge of my lord stafford : so that it was a very rash and presumptuous thing , that dugdale should attempt a man that he knew not , and a very imprudent thing , that he should suborn a witness , to swear against a man that the witness to be suborned did not know . but i shall say no more of him , because i think upon the account that has been given of him by a noble earl of this house , and an honourable member of the house of commons , if he had said things in themselves probable , he deserves not in the least to be believed . my lords , next witness upon the same head of subornation was one morral , a poor barber ; and what says he ? he testifies that mr. dugdale did offer him l. to swear against sir james symons and some others . my lords , whether this be probable or no , we must leave to your lordships . we have called witnesses that prove him a man of no reputation , one that runs up and down the countrey , a kind of vagabond , and i think , ( upon the endeavours that have been proved to have been used as to others ) it is no very hard matter to bring a man of his condition to say as much as he hath done . the next witness is samuel holt the blacksmith ; and he tells such a story , that if it were true , would be some disparagement to dugdale , and what is that ? he says that dugdale sent a man and a horse for him , to bring him to the star in stafford ; and there offer'd him l. to swear that one moore carried away evers . my lords , how this story comes in i cannot imagine , why mr. dugdale should bear any ill will to moore , or what should induce him to intice this man to swear against moore , or what else was in it , it doth not appear . but no matter what it is for ; we prove against this man by two witnesses , rawlins and lander . by the first , that he is a man of ill reputation , very zealous to support the plot , and cry down mr. dugdale , saying , that he was a rogue and all they were rogues that took part with him . and by the other witness lander , that holt did make an assault upon him , and would have killed him for being ready to appear against my lord aston at his intended tryal . so that he is a man that has more zeal than honesty . zeal in no good matter , namely to hinder the truth from coming out against my lord aston ; and therefore we have little reason to wonder : nay , all the reason in the world to believe , that he says that which is untrue about mr. dugdale . my lords , there was another witness , mr. lydcott , that said , he was a fellow of king's colledge in cambridge . he has offered no proofs that he was so ; and truly it is very improbable he should be so : for i hope fellowships in the university , especially in one of the chief colledges ( as this is ) are bestowed upon more deserving , and less suspitious persons than he appears to be : a man that owns himself the continual companion and secretary of one so famous in the popish party as my lord castlemain is : a man that pretends he was never out of his company ; and a man that owns , that two years since , he was taking of notes at a tryal for this plot , not only for his own curiosity , but for the service of his lord , who was concerned in the accusation . that this man should be a fellow of king's colledge , seems strange , and till it be better proved will hardly be believed ; nor will he deserve any credit . it is true , he doth acknowledge himself a protestant , and to be of the church of england , and educated as he says a presbyterian ; but when he was asked when he received the sacrament last , i do not remember , that he gave your lordships any answer . this witness says , that he was at the tryal of the five jesuites ; and there dugdale did swear , that he gave notice to mr. philips , and mr. sambidge of sir edmundbury godfrey's death : and this they would make to be a great fault in dugdale , because neither philips nor sambidge remember it . now whether dugdale swore true in that or no , does not depend upon dugdale's own credit alone ; but you have heard other witnesses have made it appear , that he did swear true : so that we need not say any thing more to this witness , nor to gifford , who testifies to the same purpose ; because that point , as to the report of the death of the justice of peace is by other witnesses clearly proved . and as for mr. sambidge , i do not wonder much , that he should say , he did not hear it , because he could hardly hear what was said to him by the court , or any of the officers set near him on purpose . but , my lords , i desire your lordships to take notice , that he was a very angry witness ; he said , he had formerly had a controversie with dugdale , that dugdale had cited him into litchfield court , and had there a suit against him for defamation ; and he said that against dugdale , which , unless better proved , must needs make sambidge much suspected : he said , that dugdale was the wickedest man on earth ; but what proof he offer'd of that , or whether he did instance in any one particular , i leave it to your lordships memories . my lords , there is another proof relating to mr. dugdale , not out of the mouth of a witness , but out of a paper , which i desire to give an answer to . it was an objection , the prisoner at the bar was pleased to make to dugdale's information , taken the . of december . before the justices in the countrey , wherein he had said to this purpose ; presently after one howard , almoner to the queen , went over , he was told by george hobson , that there was a design , &c. this , saith my lord , is most impossible to be true : for you say , that immediately after the almoner was gone away , hobson told you this , whereas hobson went away with the almoner ; and he came not to live with my lord aston till many years afterwards . this my lord is pleased to offer as a falsification of dugdale's testimony ; but , my lords , i do desire to observe that this is an information taken before two justices of peace in the country ; and if you look upon it , you will see it was written by a country clerk , and not very skilfully done . ' t●s rather short notes of an examination , than a compleat examination . and your lordships will please likewise to observe , that this is not really an expression that is clear one way or th' other , but capable of two senses , that is to say ▪ either it may import hobson told him there was a design ever since the almoner howard went away ; or it may import hobson told him presently after the almoner went away that there was a design . read but the words with a different comma , and it makes the sense one way or t'other . now it is plain dugdale could not intend that hobson told him so as soon as the almoner went away , because hobson went away with the almoner . and it was better to his purpose , that hobson should tell him so after his return than before , for that shews the design had been long a carrying on . therefore it being a doubtful expression that may refer either to the time he told it to him , or to the matter he told him of , and being taken in the latter sense , the objection faileth : i think this matter can have no weight at all in it to falsifie a positive testimony . my lords , the next witness we did call , and which was objected against by my lord was dr. oats ; and truly i must observe , that his lordship was not pleased to call any one witness materially to falsifie dr. oats his testimony ; and i must likewise observe , that dr. oats is in the material part of his evidence supported by other evidence . when dr. oats gave evidence at former tryals , it was the common discourse of the men of that religion , that dr. oats had never been in spain , nor had ever any credit with the priests or jesuits , but was a mean contemptible person , and that all he said was improbable . but now your lordships have heard that dr. oats , even by the testimony of dennis a popish priest ( that is so to this day ) was in spain , was according to what he saith , brought up in the colledge of the jesuits , that he was in such esteem there , that the archbishop of tuam commended him very much in the presence of dennis , and spoke of what expectation there was of him . so that dennis the priest doth support dr. oats in some parts of his evidence . i do not speak of that part of it which concerns this particular lord , but of his testimony touching the general plot. there is another thing wherein dr. oats is supported by another witness , and that is the esteem and intimacy he had with the jesuits . for mr. jenison swears , that dr. oats was a man in esteem among them , that he was at ireland's chamber , and had discourse with ireland , and did appear to be frequently imployed by them . and i take these two witnesses to be a great support to dr. oats , as to the general matters which he evidenceth of the plot. what now doth my lord object against dr. oats ? he call'd no witnesses against him , but only an honourable earl of this house , i think i may name him , the earl of berkely : and that which his lordship was pleased to testifie against him was , object . that being examined at the house of lords after he had given a long evidence against many persons , he was asked this question , whether there were any more persons of quality he could speak against , or could accuse , and he said no. answ . first , your lordships will be pleased to observe , that this was after he had accused my lord stafford , my lord was secured in the tower long before that upon dr. oats his testimony , and so he could not exclude this lord. but that which it is brought for ( i suppose ) is to make him a person of no credit ; for after he had said this , he proceeded to an accusation of the queen . my lords , i humbly conceive this may receive a very fair answer . for , first , my lords , i appeal to your lordships memories ( for , i think , the matter was before you all , or at leastwise before some of your lordships ) that the accusation which dr. oats made of the queen was not positive , nor of his own certain knowledge , but words which he heard spoken in a room in which he was not himself , but coming in afterwards , he saw the queen was there . so it was not positive , but circumstantial proof , and questionable whether what he testified would amount to the proof of one witness . and i must observe in the second place , it might not be so clear to dr. oats , whether the queen were a person capable of an accusation , so as to be proceeded criminally against , the king and the queen are to some purposes but one person in law. 't is true , some queens have been tryed for treason ; but whether dr. oats understood that she might be brought to a tryal may be a question . but , that which i rely upon as an answer , and which i desire may be considered , is , that dr. oats had given an accompt of a great many persons , and a great many things he had sworn against several persons , some of which were executed , some to be tryed , and his narrative against them , and of the whole plot consisted of a great number of particulars . here is a question comes to the doctor on a sudden , have you any more to say , or can you speak against any other ? 't is possible a man that had said so much , and of so many , might not upon an instant recollect whether he had said all , or against all that he could say : nay , ' tit easily to be imagined he could not on a sudden comprehend all he had said or could say . therefore that the answer of a man to such a question put suddenly to him , having so much in his mind , and having said so much , should be taken so very strictly , and to hold him as perjured , because he did not at that instant time remember this particular of the queen , i think is a severe construction . his lordship is pleased further to object against dr. oats , that he is of no credit ; why ? because he went to be of the romish religion , and so was of that religion which is idolatry : i suppose his lordship will not call that religion idolatry at another time , and in another place ; but it serves his lordship upon this particular occasion , to call it so ; but suppose doctor oats did , out of levity , or for want of being well grounded in his own , turn to another religion , he is not the first man that hath done so : there have been men of great fame in our church , and of great learning too , that have changed their religion more than once . i think he that knew that famous man mr. chillingworth , could not but know he was first a protestant , and afterwards a papist , and afterwards a protestant again : so that unless my lord could accuse the doctor of some great crime , or immorality , it will be hard , that the matter of changing his religion , should hurt his testimony . i am sure , it was happy for us he did change ; without that , we had not had the first knowledge of the plot , nor of many particulars which he could not come to know but by occasion of that change. my lord was pleased to object , that the doctor was a man subject to passion ; and he brought in the lieutenant of the tower , to speak of some hot words that passed between them . my lords , i will allow the doctor to be a man of passion : nay , if my lord please , a man that is not of the deepest reach ; but your lordships will observe , that passionate men are not often malicious ; and that a man who is not of a deep judgment , could never have contrived and invented a narrative consisting of so many particulars , and they so coherent , if they were false : and if his narrative be not true , he must be indued with more subtilty and wicked policy , than upon tryal we can find in him : so that what my lord hath objected as to his infirmities , is no diminution to the truth of what he says , but rather a confirmation of it . my lords , the last witness whom my lord endeavoured to impeach is mr. turbervill ; and against him my lord thinks he hath a great advantage : but , my lords , by that time i have re-minded your lordships of what hath been already said , and what was before proved in answer to my lord's objections against him , mr. turbervill will stand as clear in this court , as any of the former witnesses . your lordships will be pleased to take notice , that mr. turbervill was at the beginning , when he came to the house of commons , a little uncertain , as to matter of time : for when he had made in his affidavit , the times to be ( ) and ( ) he craved leave to alter it to ( ) and ( . ) surely , my lords , this will be far from being any imputation to mr. turbervill ; because , first , he gives the reason how he came afterwards to understand the time bettter , by viewing his papers and letters ; he likewise gives you an account , and so did sir william poultney , when he did this , the next morning , before any man in the world had questioned him upon it : so that it shews the man's care and conscience both , when he is so careful , even in matters of the smallest moment to set things right . there is no man that knows the practice of the court of chancery , but knows , that for a man to mend his answer after it is sworn in a point of time , or other circumstance , is no disparagement to him : nay , to do it before the other party did except or take notice of it , is no objection , but rather a reputation to him : and your lordships will be pleased to take notice , that one of the times rectified , is of or years , the other of years standing . and i do not think the worse of a witness that is not positive , in a time , when that time is so far elapsed . the next matter is , that this man was never with my lord ; how was that proved , for 't is a negative ? why , my lord is pleased to call his own servants , furnese and the boy leigh , and what say they ? they never saw any such man. my lords , i desire your lordships to observe , that mr. turbervill was introduced by greater confidents than either of these servants . mr. turbervill came in the company of the priests , and you hear the boy deny that he knew anthony turbervill , but not that he knew father turbervill , nor doth my lord himself deny it , nor doth either master or man deny my lords correspondency with the other two fathers . and it might be very easie for mr. turbervill to come in the company of the priests , and the boy not take particular notice of him . and 't is as little an objection what my lord says , that turbervill himself said he did not know the boy ; how many are there that come to the houses of another ; and unless they lodge there or dine there often , do not remember the servants of the house : and 't is no greater an objection , to say , the servants did not know him : the priests they knew him ; they were his guides ; they were the likeliest to gain him admittance , not only into my lord's house , but into my lord's heart . my lords , your lordships will be pleased likewise to observe , they have also gone about in very little matters , to disprove mr. turbervill , as that whereas he says , he was not well used by my lord powis and his lady , when he returned from doway ; that he was very well used ; and as one witness ( i think minhead ) says , he was permitted to lie in a room near my lord's chamber . my lords , mr. turbervill does not pretend to say , that my lord powis shut him out of doors ; but what reproaches or unkind words might pass between them in private , minhead might not hear : so that to say , that he lay in my lord's house , is no answer to this matter . and for the other witness ( his brother ) that speaks of his kindreds being kind to him , that , under favour , does not at all disprove him ; for , what was the kindness ? his brother and sister were so kind as to give him seven pounds never to see him more ; a great matter when a younger brother lies upon a family , that the trouble of his stay there is redeemed at the price of seven pound . this was a very great kindness , a kindness indeed that one would scarce deny to a stranger , if in poverty . i mention the least matters i can remember , because i would have nothing stick with your lordships . then secretary lydcott ( the fellow of kings colledge ) was called again ; but indeed , my lords , he was so out in his arithmetick , so mistaken in the year ; and used the new stile ( the romish ) so much more than ours , that it makes me suspect he is not so great a protestant as he pretends to be . he promised us his book , which he was not then prepared to produce ; but because we do not hear of him , nor of his book since , we say no more of him . my lords , john porter my lord powis's butler comes next , and what does he tell your lordships ? why , that mr. turbervill came not to powis's house ( it seems he did not appear there ) but that he came to a victualling house hard by ; and he telling turbervill he must know something of the plot , he denied that he knew any thing . to the same purpose , or rather to less , and more improbably , does yalden ( the gentleman of grays inn , as he calls himself ) testifie , who says , that walking in grays inn walks , he had discourse with turbervill ; and that he then swore , there was no trade good now but that of a discoverer ; and damned himself because he could make no discovery . truly , my lords , this looks in it self to be something prepared for the purpose : it is not probable , that a man that should use those horrid oaths , and should have such a mind to be a discoverer , should disable himself ever to be so by swearing he knew nothing . but i will not only answer that matter , with saying 't is improbable ; but i shall desire your lordships to remember , that mr. powel , a gentleman of the same house , and of good reputation , does swear , that turbervill did acquaint him , that he could discover a considerable matter ; and this was above a year since . and mr. arnold , a member of the house of commons does confirm it , that he did several times acquaint him , that he could make an important discovery ; and gave him several reasons , why he thought not fit to do at that time , because of the dangers which might arise from some great men ; and therefore till he had a more convenient opportunity , he would not discover . but as soon as the parliament sate , very early he did begin to discover : so that i shall oppose the testimony of mr. powel and mr. arnold , to the testimony of my lord powis's butler , and mr. yalden ; the latter of whom , speaks so improbably , and of a discourse half a year ago ; whereas mr. powel speaks of what mr. turbervill said above a year since , and mr. arnold of a longer time . my lords , it hath been sometimes objected , that mr. turbervill was a stranger to my lord ; and it was too great a trust to commit to a stranger ; too great a secret for a stranger to be acquainted with : my lord's design of the king's death was too great a matter to lodge with one , with whom my lord had no more acquaintance than he had with turbervill . your lordships will be pleased to observe who they were that did introduce him , and who probably gave the best character of him : they were the three priests ; and i do not wonder when these priests had brought my lord up to such a purpose , that they should prevail with his lordship to give credit to , and deal with a man that was not very unlike in his circumstances to attempt such a business ▪ for your lordships will observe , he was a man that was very stout ; for against my lord's reflection upon him as to cowardise in deserting the army , mr. turbervill hath produced the certificate of his dismission , which gives him a very good character . besides , he was a man indigent , and therefore i think there could not be a fitter man chosen for the purpose , if he had been so void of all grace as to undertake it . and that priests having gotten a man so qualified , as they thought him , were not likely to let slip such an opportunity . but , my lords , to come to that which is the sum of the business , and which my lord lays more weight on than all the rest ; and that is the affidavit which mr. turbervill swore before the justices of the peace ( which was in effect what he informed the house of commons ) and in that affidavit , besides his alteration of times ( which i have spoken to already ) it is objected that he does say that which is manifestly untrue : for he says my lord came by the way of calice with count gramont , neither of which my lord did do . my lords , i will not mention the master of the yacht , nor the witnesses from the admiralty which make out that my lord came from diep , and not from calice . nor do i deny that my lord came by himself , and not with count gramont , and therefore 't is most certainly true , that what turbervill swore , as to those two particulars , was not true . yet if your lordships please to observe the circumstances , tho' what he swore herein was not true , it will appear a very innocent mistake . for in turbervill's affidavit he tells your lordships , that he came away without my lord to diep , and came from diep to england before my lord stafford left paris . mr. turbervill tells you , afterwards my lord came from calice with count gramont ; mr. turbervill could not possibly be thought to speak this of his own knowledge , because he does in the same affidavit tell you too , that he came away before my lord , and had not his passage with him . so that , my lords , i desire you would observe , it could be no design of his to affirm this of his own knowledge : for if it were , he took a very ill course to disclose in the same affidavit that he was absent , and so could not speak of his own knowledge . and , my lords , suppose a man did swear such a man and he were in such company , and that he came home and left the man there , and that afterwards the man said such and such things in that company , what should i say of this oath ? i might well say the words of his oath were not proper , or that he was unweary in expressing himself ; but i could not say , nor would any man justly be able to say he had a design to make the world believe he heard him say so , because he swears in the same breath he came away before the words were spoken . if mr. turbervill had understood how strict and nice a man ought to be in expressing himself in an affidavit , he would have said ( as he had been told ) my lord ●ame by calice , and that count gramont came with him , as he understood . 't is true he hath not put in those words , but i beseech you , when the matter it self will bear it , nay , when 't is most apparent that mr. turbervill could have no other meaning than to relate what he was informed by others , and what he could not know himself , what corruption , what obliquity can there be in this oath ? all that can be said is , it was not cautiously worded ; but it does certainly disclose so much in it self , that every one that hears it must say , that he did not take upon himself to swear it as of his own knowledge , because he tells you he was not there , so that it was rather want of knowledge how to express himself properly , than any corruption in his oath , or forswearing himself . but says my lord , how should he come to know this ? why mr. turbervill said he had a letter whereby he knew my lord would come by the way of calice , but where is that letter ? is it necessary to keep , or does any man almost keep letters of no greater concernment than this , that my lord writ him word how he would go by the way of calice , and this after five years , and after he was in the wars , and where i have heard he was taken prisoner . to be sure he was much tumbled up and down from place to place . and under all these circumstances might not such a letter be lost ? but , my lords , i beseech you , are there not some proofs that look much this way , made out by another witness ? does not mr. mort tell you something of this nature ? first he agrees as to the matter of an english lord lying about such a street in paris , he tells you he was with mr. turbervill , and that he himself walked about laxenburgh house whilst mr. turbervill went to speak with that english lord : he does say he believes his name was my lord stafford , but he is not positive ; and the times which he speaks of do agree with what mr. turbervill deposeth . and there is one thing , which tho' i should not mention upon any other occasion , because it was but a foolish joke , yet i shall crave leave to speak of it now . he tells you , that one day , while they were at diep in expectation of my lords coming , and hearing that he went another way , they had this piece of minute wit upon it , cursed is he that relies upon a broken staff : whereby he thinks was meant the name of stafford . so then , ● beseech you , if mort say true , are not here footsteps , and a foundation whereon to ground a belief , that there was a correspondence between turbervill and my lord , and that mr. turbervill had an information that my lord would come by the way of calice . and one thing more mort says , that turbervill told him , if he would make haste to calice , he might go over with my lord. and here i would observe , how should mr. turbervill come to know that my lord went that way ? and how should he tell mort that he might go over with my lord from calice , unless he had receiv'd some such information ? therefore , my lords , taking into consideration what is confirmed by mort , and taking into consideration the whole scope of the affidavit , i cannot see that there can be any material objection against mr. turbervill for saying , that my lord came by calice in the company of count gramont . my lords , i have done now with the witnesses , and i told you as i went along ( because i would not trouble you with a double repetition ) what evidence we have given in contradiction to those witnesses which my lord hath brought in order to defame our witnesses . but , my lords , i am to acquaint you , that besides these particular answers , your lordships have had men of very great credit brought to testifie the reputation of mr. dugdale and mr. turbervill . as to mr. dugdale we have brought men that have known him a great while ; one hath sworn what opinion even my lord aston himself had of him : for it seems he lived with so much credit there , that he would not believe any ill of him . you have heard from other witnesses how he did behave himself . it was objected sometimes tradesmen were not paid ; but what then , can a man pay without money ? i believe there are some lords here , whose stewards are very honest men , and yet the tradesmen such lords deal with , are not always readily paid . he was , as you observe , believed to be in the plot , and my lord's servants say he seemed much troubled about it , he went away upon that account , and was so much concerned , that he burnt his papers , which i make use of for two purposes , the one to shew that he did apprehend he was in great danger ; the other to shew what was the reason why the letters and papers he speaks of are not now produced , because he looked upon himself , and them who were then his friends , to be in such danger by them , that he burnt them . my lords , i know your lordships will take notice that there hath been a very good account given you , how it was that dugdale came to be prevailed upon to make a discovery of the plot , it was with great difficulty ; there were indeed persuasions used by some of his friends to bring him to it . the justices , as they themselves have sworn , endeavoured the same thing , but all without success . then the coroner mr. southall ( who tho' he was no great , yet seems to be a very understanding man ) takes him in hand , and he had the good fortune to succeed . i call it good , not only for mr. dugdale , but for the nation . i shall not trouble your lordships with the particulars of the arguments mr. southall used to him , but 't is plain ( if you believe mr. southall , whose credit is now supported by an honourable lord , and by a member of the house of commons ) that dugdale did at the first time that he did make a discovery , depose as much in substance against this lord , as now he does . and from thence i desire to make one observation , and that is this : 't was impossible it could be a contrivance among the witnesses themselves to depose the same crimes against this lord ; for doctor oats never knew mr. dugdale till dugdale was brought up , which was long after doctor oats his accusation of this lord ; nor could dugdale know what evidence oats had given here , for dugdale was a close prisoner in stafford gaol before oats accused this lord , and long after . and yet the first evidence dugdale gives against this lord doth in substance concur with that given by doctor oats . so that since there could be no intercourse nor conference between them , but as much distance as from the prison doors in stassord to london , there could be no contrivance between them for both of them to accuse this lord of the same matters . and this i desire may be looked upon by your lordships as a matter of great weight to support the credit of the whole evidence . and dugdale does seem to be a person of an unquestionable credit , and every one that hears him must observe , he does give his evidence with great mcdesty , and all probability of truth . there is another thing , my lords , that i would pray your lordships to observe ; these witnesses , mr. dugdale and doctor oats , do give such an evidence as is impossible to be given , unless it were true ; for other witnesses when they are put out of the road , and asked questions they did not expect , are commonly to seek , and must pump for an answer , and then answer with great difficulty and wariness . but these two witnesses do not only answer with readiness when you ask them any questions , but what is contained in every new answer doth add a further probability and confirmation to what they said before . and i must needs say of them , i think it were impossible for any men in the world to contrive a story of so many particulars , and so consistent in every part of it , and yet the same should be false ; and , which is more , after so many tryals , not one material circumstance of what they say contradicted by any solid proof . my lords , there may be other particulars which i may have forgotten , i know not whether i observed that my lord objected that we do not prove him a papist , i hinted something before about his coming to mass to my lord aston's at tixal , which is one sort of proof of his being of the romish religion . besides his perpetual conversation with that party , and his endeavours to promote their religion and designs , all which have been fully proved : i think also my lord deserted the house of peers , for that he would not take the test appointed by the late act , your lordships best know whether he did so or no. but , my lords , let him if he will be a protestant , for this time , let that be supposed : if he were a protestant , and should be guilty of the offences proved upon him , he would not deserve the more favour from your lordships . my lord hath been likewise pleased in further proof of his innocency to alledge that after the plot was discovered , he had seven posts time to have escaped , and yet never fled . my lords , 't is true , he might have fled , so might coleman too , that coleman that left so fatal an evidence against himself and all his party under his own hand , and for that had reason to believe himself very guilty , and so might the jesuits have escaped too , but that they had hopes the oath of secresie and the means they had used to conceal their damnable designs would have been a sufficient security against revealing it . they had that opinion of their priests , and of the fidelity and constancy of those that had been seduced by them , and recommended by them , that they apprehended nothing less than a discovery . and those other persons that were executed did all stay about the town after the plot was discovered , as well as this lord staid in the countrey . my lord did very much complain , that our witnesses were not positive in point of time , i think dugdale was positive enough as to the time of the offer of l. but for other matters he would not confine himself to a month , he talked of the latter end of one month , and the beginning of another , i think he is the more to be believed ; for i conceive unless a witness hath some notorious circumstance in his memory to satisfie him about the certainty of the time ( such as was that of the foot-race as to the time of the offer of l. ) it is rather a mark of presumption than of sincerity for a witness to be too positive as to the time . and is there so great a distance between the latter end of one month , and the beginning of another , that a witness need to be positive as to the very day ? but says my lord , you talk of the beginning , it was the th . of september ere i came thither ; does not every man count that till the middle of a month , 't is the beginning of a month sure , in common speech it is so . therefore i look upon that as a matter scarce worth the mentioning , i am sure not worth the serious answering . but , my lords , i must observe thus much , that what my lord complains of as a fault in our witnesses , his own witnesses are guilty of . for i appeal to your lordships , when they came to speak of times , whether they did not talk at the distance of a month , or months , and sometimes of years , and less certain in point of time than ours . but , says my lord , ( for i am still answering his objections , and you must take them as i find them ) here is mention made by dr. oats of letters , of many letters , shew me some of those letters ? shew me the letter you carried to the post-house ? my lords , were those letters written to dr. oats ? did they belong to him ? or is it possible that my lords letter delivered by the doctor to the post-house , should now be shewn by the doctor , or that the letters writ to the superior of the society of the jesuits should be produced by one that was a novice of that society ? does dr. oats talk of any one letter written to himself ? you will then , i suppose , see no reason to expect those letters should be produced by him that were not written to him , and the custody whereof belonged to others . my lords , i must observe to you , that there have been great endeavours used to invalidate our testimony , we have had witnesses called against witnesses , and my lord hath had that advantage to do it , which perhaps was never given in any case before , and which i hope will never be again . the evidence hath been printed and published to the world before it hath been given . i say not that it was not necessary in this case , which was a national cause , and the cause of our religion ; but i do say it would not be fit to be done in other cases , for the notifying of the evidence is the way to have it falsified and corrupted . but notwithstanding all these advantages , my lords , i appeal to your lordships memories what considerable contradiction hath been given . it is true some witnesses to that end have been brought before your lordships , but those witnesses have been rendred incredible , by more credible persons ; and i would desire your lordships to observe , that tho' my lord hath failed of proving any subornation in our witnesses , yet we have proved much subornation endeavoured by his agents . your lordships have the record against redding before you , and what reference that hath to the lords in the tower , every one does remember , and my lord is mentioned in that record . and i might likewise mention the business of cellier , and what therein related to the lords in the tower , and i 'le name but two witnesses more that have been attempted upon this nature : there was wright the barber , all the applications were made to him that could be , money given , letters writ , insinuations that he was not to swear , he was but to write , and that was easily done : or if he would be so kind to swear it , he should never come into open court , only go before a justice of peace . so that your lordships will observe by what steps and degrees men were endeavoured to be suborned . and then launder tells you what was offered to him to perjure himself , how he was brought to tixall , and what endeavours were used to make him swear against our witnesses . these things are plain , both by records and particular proofs upon oath . but , my lords , lest we should want proof of all , this very lord ( i pity him for it ) hath been so unfortunate as to bring that paper out of his pocket , which wright says he had money to frame , and was to swear to . it seems my lord had the command of it , it seems to have been prepared for such a good time as this , and the producing of this paper is as full a confirmation of this point as can in reason be expected . my lords , i have been i fear too long already , and yet i fear , i have omitted as many particulars as i have mentioned . my lords , the evidence is so strong , that i think it admits of no doubt , and the offences proved against my lord and the rest of his party are so foul that they need no aggravation . the offences are against the king , against his sacred life , against the protestant religion , nay against all protestants , for it was for the extirpation of all protestants out of these three nations . i mean not of every one that is now so , but of every one that would have continued so , every one amongst us ( if these designs had been accomplished ) must either have turned his religion , or turned out of his countrey , or have been burned in it . 't is a design that appears with so dreadful a countenance to your lordships , to this great assembly , and to the whole nation , that it needs not any words i can use to make you apprehend it . if the matter be fully proved ( as i see no reason to doubt but that it is ) i am sure your lordships will do that justice to your king and countrey as to give judgment against these offenders , which will not only be a security to us against them , but a terror to all others against comitting the like offences . l. stafford . i beg of your lordships to know whether you will give me leave to speak a word . and my lords , i shall not speak any thing but as to a mistake , sir will. jones hath made in two or three things . pray , my lords , may i put you in mind of them ? sir william jones . if there be any mistake pray tell us what it is ? l. stafford . first , my lords , he did omit telling you that mr. turbervill's brother did say he came in ( ) to my lord powis's . secondly , he says i have proved my self a papist because i have not taken the test . my lords , the test was since i was in the tower , and whether i will take it or not , i do not yet know till it be offered me . the third is this , that this letter was in my pocket which i produced to you , my lords , i knew nothing what was in it , it was given into my hand as i stood here at the bar. fourthly , he said hobson did go out of england with the almoner , he did not so . another thing he says , that i said oats was an infamous person because he went to a church that i said was idolatrous , i only said it was so adjudged by act of parliament . i find , my lords , these things he is mistaken in , and that , my lords , made me very willing to put you in mind of them . l. h. steward . gentlemen , i would ask you whether you take any notice of the points in law ? sir fran. winn. after the fact is stated , my lords , we shall . then mr. powle , also one of the committee appointed to manage the evidence , proceeded further in summing up of the same . mr. powle . my lords , the learned person that spake last , hath left very little for me to say in the summing of this evidence ; but because this noble lord hath been pleased to alledge several reasons , from whence he would infer at least a great improbability that he should be guilty of the treasons whereof he stands accused , i shall crave your lordships patience , that i may give three or four words in answer to those particulars . my lords , in the first place this noble lord was pleased to begin , and afterwards to continue his defence with making protestations of his own innocency ; we very well know your lordships sit now in the seat of justice , and whatsoever credit or regard your lordships please to give to the protestations of a peer in another case , your lordships will proceed here only according to your proofs and your evidence ( secundum allegata & probata ) and therefore all we shall say to this , is , that we hope our proofs are so clear and evident , as will leave no room to your lordships to believe this noble lords protestations . in the next place , my lord is pleased to alledge , and withal to lay some weight upon it , the voluntary surrendring of himself to justice , and he laid it down as a rule , that as flight is an argument of guilt , so the surrendring of a mans self to the trial of the law , is an argument of innocency . my lords , we admit the rule generally to be true ; but in some particular cases it may be otherwise ; for a man that is not very confident of his own innocency , may yet be very confident of the strength of his party ; and whether the consideration of the circumstances of affairs , as they then stood , and the power and prevalency of the popish party at that time , might not reasonably create such a confidence in this noble lord , we must leave to your lordships judgment . my lords , we do conceive that those persons who contrived sir edmundbury godfrey's murder , had so great confidence in the favour and protection of some of their party , that they thought themselves able to out-face justice . and we verily believe , they intended it as an example to deter all men from medling so much as with the taking an examination concerning this horrid plot. my lords , i desire to be understood aright in this , i lay nothing of the death of sir edmundbury godfrey to the charge of this noble lord , i only use it as an argument of the presumption of the popish party at that time . my lords , in the next place , my lord stafford did observe from my lord coke , that in the tryals of treasons we ought very much to guide our judgments by the nature and circumstances of the fact ( the concomitants and subsequents , as he termed them ) with reference to the person accused , whether they were likely to induce or deter him from such an attempt , and here he was pleased to raise some arguments from the whole course of his life , and did desire your lordships to consider those circumstances therein that might make it improbable or impossible , that he should commit a treason of this nature . he desired also your lordships to remember that he was descended from an honourable family , and that his ancestors were very worthy and very deserving persons , and such as had often ventured their lives in defence of their country ; and here he did likewise mention his own services to the last king , and our present soveraign , in the late wars . it is not my part , nor will i derogate any thing from the merits of this noble lord , much less from the honour of his family ; but in answer to this we shall desire your lordships to consider , that this noble lord ( however he is pleased to disown it at present ) is notoriously known to be a roman catholick ( as they call themselves ) and such we conceive we have sufficiently proved him to be , in the course of our evidence : and as there is nothing in the world so much as a misguided conscience that can ingage the best of men into the worst of actions , so we think the principles of that religion are such , as are more likely to pervert men from their duty and allegiance , than any other religion or perswasion whatsoever . and if the zeal of this noble lord did engage him to endeavour the establishment of that religion in this kingdom , we may easily believe that his reason did suggest to him , the means by which it must be effected , which could be no other but blood and confusion . my lords , the last thing i shall take notice of , is , what my lord stafford was pleased to say in general as to the doctrine of killing and deposing princes , which his lordship was pleased to call a private opinion , and not the doctrine of the church of rome . but by the way , my lords , give me leave to observe , that this noble lord did upon this occasion fully own ( and i much commend his ingenuity in it ) the reality of the gun powder treason , since we know , how much that party have endeavoured to render it incredible ; and as length of time hath so fully manifested the particulars of that execrable design , that it hath brought such as are of that perswasion to confess the truth of it ; so , we hope , this days tryal will convince both the age we live in , and all posterity of the truth and reality of this present conspiracy . but to go on with that point from which i did digress , i am not i confess much versed in the canons and councils of the church of rome , but , my lords , this i know , the most famous and celebrated writers of that church , especially of the society of the jesuits , have publickly avowed and maintained this doctrine ; and we know in all times , when there hath been occasion to put it in practice , it hath never failed to have been attempted ; and we likewise know that the church of rome and the pope have always avowed the acts when they have been done : from all which we might very reasonably conclude , that it is the doctrine of that church so to do . but , my lord is pleased to say , and admit for truth , that a great many private writers do hold the contrary , i believe it to be so , but i do also believe , that it is the policy and artifice of the church of rome , to leave this point of doctrine in some measure undetermined , that so they may make use of it as the occasion serves ; for if it succeeds , then it is owned and justified , if it miscarry , then the doctrine is but a private opinion , and the plot but the practice of particular persons that are either desperate or discontented . and i am fully of opinion , that this horrid conspiracy which is brought this day in judgment before your lordships , wants nothing but success to canonize it . my lords , as to what concerns the evidence , it hath been so fully stated to you , and the objections that were raised to invalidate it , so well answered , that i will not trouble your lordships with any repitition of what hath been said already : all we have further to desire , is , that your lordships will please to take our evidence into your consideration , and to do thereupon what shall be agreeable to justice . mr. serj. maynard . my lords , as to matter of fact i shall say nothing but only this ( and i wish it may be spoken with gratitude to almighty god , ) that the discovery of this plot is rather the work of god than man. it was first his act in prevailing upon oats to make the discovery ; and when he stood single almost , what came to support his credit but the letters of coleman , which were like a tally to what oats had said , for what oats informs is in a great part made good by his letters . then when godfrey was murther'd , how came that discovery out , but by the voluntary confession of one engaged in the whole plot , i mean bedloe ? so that though these men had engaged themselves by wicked oaths , yet their own consciences witnessing against them in themselves , they could not forbear coming in to testifie against themselves . i shall say no more , than that we ought to acknowledge the hand of god in the discovery with great thankfulness ; for it is he and he alone that out of his own grace and goodness hath done it , and thereby preserved the life of our prince to us , and in him us too . but as to the matter in law. my lord has been pleased to mention first this , that there is no overt act. i wonder that my lord should be so much mistaken . when it is charged in the articles , and proved to his face he received a commission , is not that an overt act ? he is charged in the articles of impeachment with contriving the death of the king , and being at several meetings and consults about the king's death , and h●●ing persons to kill the king ; and are these no overt acts ? therefore as to that my lord is mistaken . my lords , another exception that is taken , is , that there is no indictment . i conceive that an impeachment of the house of commons is more than an indictment . and there cannot be any doubt of that , the impeachment of the house of commons having always been received and proceeded on by your lordships . but that which is most insisted upon , is , that this charge that is made against this lord was presented in another parliament . it is true , but under favour , what is once upon record in parliament may at any time afterwards be proceeded upon . it is a sudden objection , but i conceive it hath been done . however in a case of this nature , when the life of the king , when our own lives , and our nation , and our religion lies at stake , if there were not a precedent , i hope you would make a precedent . but under favour , reason is for it , the charge is before you , the proof is made , and we pray you will judge according as the evidence hath been . sir will. jones . my lords , as to these matters of law , i think they are of so little difficulty , that my lord will not desire to have counsel assigned him , i am sure his counsel will not desire to speak to them . for this last matter which mr. serjeant spoke of , and which was first named by the prisoner , i desire your lordship to consider what it is . says my lord the prisoner , there was an impeachment begun in the long parliament , and this is now the third parliament in which i am brought to my tryal . it is very true , there was a general impeachment in the long parliament , the particular one was in the last , and this lord was pleased to plead in the last . it may be he was not so well advised then as he is now . but my lords , how can this be a doubt , when your lordships have resolv'd , and have sent it down to the commons ; and it is there entred in their book , as the law and constitution of parliaments , that not only impeachments but all judicial proceedings continue from parliament to parliament , in the same state that they were in at the rising of the last parliament . this is now become the law of your house , and it is under favour , being so , the law of the kingdom ; and you having thus declared it , and sent it to the commons , i hope the commons had very good reason to proceed upon this impeachment at this time . the next matter is concerning the overt acts , i think there are sufficient overt acts in proof and sufficient in the impeachment . will any man de●y tha● t●e receiving a commission to be pay-master of an army is an overt ' act ? will any deny that the sending for the witness and offering him money in order to hire him to kill the king is an overt act ? and ( which answers to all ) will any man deny that the meeting and consulting of several men together , about killing the king and changing the government is an overt act. my lords , these are all overt acts , and i cannot but think it was without advice of my lords counsel that he made these objections ; for indeed these several overt acts are laid in the impeachment as fully as they are made out in proof . my lords , there is another objection that my lord is pleased to make , and that is , that there is but one witness to a particular fact. l. h. steward . ay , what say you to that ? sir will. jones . that , my lords , is of little weight , with submission ; for our impeachments , and our proofs run to this , that my lord had a design and intention to destroy the king , this was to be done by force , and this was to be done by secret assassination . now if several witnesses come and prove each a distinct act , under this head of killing the king , it is so many proofs or witnesses to the treason . for , my lords , if a man shall intend to kill the king , and shall buy a knife in one county at one time , and send for a man out of another county at another time , whom he shall hire to kill the king , and these distinct acts are proved by several witnesses , if they concur to the same general treason , they are all but parts of that , and so are so many witnesses to the whole . and so i am sure it was resolved in the case of others of the conspirators in the old baily , and before that in the case of sir henry vane . but , my lords , in this case here is first a proof , that he accepted a commission , which i do not use as an act for the levying of war only , but as a design to change the government and destroy the king. here is meeting and consulting how to do this wicked work , i mean , to kill the king , that is another overt act ; here is offering money to one of the witnesses for that end , that is a third overt act ; and there is attempting another of them though not with money yet with promises of reward in general , that is another overt act , all which are to this end , the killing of the king. and i am sure of it your lordships cannot but receive satisfaction from my lords the judges , that it hath always been so held , that though there need two witnesses to prove treason , yet there needs no more than one to one act , and another to another , if the several acts fall under the same head of treason . sir franc. winn. my lords , i crave your patience but for a word or two , and this noble lord will have little reason to say his objections in point of law are of any weight . i confess he had said a great thing , if it were true , that the articles of impeachment did not alledge an overt act ; for then indeed they had been apparently defective . but under his pardon , that is not a point of law but a point of fact. let us therefore resort to the articles themselves . in the d article it is alledged that he with the rest did most wickedly and traiterously agree , conspire , and resolve to imprison , depose and murther his sacred majesty , and to deprive him of his regal state and government . and then the same article alledges farther , that they did contrive and consult to effect the murther of the king , by shooting , by poisoning , and by stabbing . all these particulars are expressed , so that when my lord said the articles were therein defective , all we can say , is , that he was misinform'd . my lords , there was another exception taken , that this is the impeachment of another parliament . i must not now repeat how this point was agreed by both houses at a conference . but it was then declared upon search of precedents in all ages , that it was the law of parliaments , which is the law of the land , that if once an impeachment by the house of commons were lodged in the house of lords , tho' that parliament were dissolved , the impeachment remained in the same state . it was the cause of the commons of england , who only change their representatives in a new parliament . it has been also objected , that this prosecution ought to have been upon an indictment . as if an accusation of the house of commons , who are the grand inquest of the nation , were not as effectual to bring offenders to justice as the finding of a particular jury . my lords , i should wonder to hear this objection made , were not my lord to be easily excused for his knowing the law no better . none who know any thing in the law would have urg'd such a thing . his counsel , i dare say , did not suggest this matter to him . it is true , my lords , when a peer comes to be tried by way of commission , or in parliament when it is not at the prosecution of the commons , there an indictment is first found in the proper county , and brought up before the peers by certiorari , and upon that they proceed . but whether the party be peer or commoner , if he be impeach'd for any crimes , surely no one can deny , but that by the constant use of parliaments , the lords have proceeded to trial , and have given judgment thereupon without an indictment found . so that this exception will be of no force at all . as for the remaining objection , that there are not two witnesses to prove any one overt act , the kings person would be in no manner of safety , if that doctrine should be once allowed . conspiring to kill the king is the treason laid in the impeachment , and the several overt acts are so many several evidences of that treason . words themselves if they signifie an intention to do an act , and express something to be done in futuro are a sufficient overt act , & a legal evidence of treason . then we prove by another witness , not words of encouragement only but offers of money , and they are both to the same kind of treason tho' not to the same act and at the same time . and if there must be witnesses to every single act the king of england is not only in a far worse condition than any other prince , but than any one of his own subjects , treasons may be committed every day with impunity , and unless the traytors be as great fools as villains , he shall never be safe from them , nor capable of punishing them . i must say it , and i say it with commiseration to the condition of this noble lord , that his exceptions in law are as weak as the answers he has given to our evidence . we hope no doubt in law remains with you , and that we have given your lordships full satisfaction of the reality of the plot , and a convincing evidence of the great share which my lord stafford had in it , and we humbly pray your lordships justice . lord high steward . you do not take notice of one thing that my lord stafford said this morning , that is , that the witnesses are not competent witnesses because they swore for money , and that is fit to be spoken unto , not for the weight of the objection so much as for the satisfaction of the auditory . sir francis winnington . my lords i had taken a note of that , but forgot to mention it . if my lord at the bar will say they have taken money to swear , that is purely a matter of fact , which he ought to prove , and that which is said and not proved ought to go for nothing ; let him prove his case to be so , and then we will give him an answer . lord high stward . my lord stafford , if your lordship can prove that they have had money to swear , your lordship urges that which will be material ; but if it were only money to maintain them , that sure will amount to no objection . lord stafford . my lords , i submit it to your lordships whether dr. oats and the rest have not had great sums of money besides their charges , l. a week a piece . but i desire your lordships to consider , and i appeal to many of your lordships , whether it has not been said , that it was a defect in coleman's and langhorn's trials , that they did not plead that , and if they had pleaded it , they must have been acquitted , i will name no body , but i appeal to your lordships , whether some of you have not said so . but i desire your lordships to admit me to plead by my counsel ; if not , i submit to you . i confess here is a piece of law that i never heard of before , that the house of commons and your lordships at a conference , have adjudged it to be the law of parliaments , that impeachments shall continue from parliament to parliament . if you will please to hear my counsel for me , so , if not i submit . lord high steward . what would you , or can you prove ? lord stafford . my lords , those things that i have given in to your lordships , i desire my counsel may be heard to . lord high steward . gentlemen , what can you object why he should not have counsel to argue his objections in law ? sir william jones . my lords , i do think under favour , if a prisoner in a capital cause do desire counsel , he must not only alledge matter of law to introduce that desire ; but that which he doth alledge , must be also a matter of some doubt to the court : for if he do alledge matter which in it self is not disputable , he shall have no counsel allowed him . if your lordships are not satisfied that it is the law of your house , that proceedings upon impeachments do continue from parliament , we cannot answer that , it lies in your lordships breasts , it is not what we are to argue . because it is a matter that concerns the law and rules of parliaments . is there , my lords , any doubt of any other point that is urged ? is there any doubt of this thing , whether if one witness speak to one point of fact and another to another upon the same sort of treason , but that these be two such witnesses as the law requires ? i pray then , my lords , consider the consequence of that doubt : a man shall talk with twenty persons about a design to kill the king in one and the same room one after another , by taking them into a corner singly , and if ten or all twenty come to prove it , here is but one witness to each discourse . this would be a matter of dangerous consequence , but i hope will remain no manner of doubt with you , nor is it fit to be argued . as to the hiring of witnesses to swear , i think that can be no point of law till it be so proved in fact. doth his lordship think , that when his majesty out of his grace and bounty allows a maintainance to his witnesses , that that is an objection to their testimony . doth not every man allow his witnesses a a maintainance , and yet it never was thought a thing to take away their evidence . it may be every one doth not give so large an allowance as the king , because his dignity is not so great . but can it be an objection to the house of commons ? have we that are the prosecutors maintained them ? if his majesty have been bountiful to his witnesses , what is that to this cause of the commons ? if my lord can prove any thing of bribery in us , as he has proved for us against himself , it may be an objection . but till that fact be proved , i hope there is no ground for a question in law ; and if there be no doubt in law , i hope there will be no need of counsel . lord high steward . my lord stafford , what are the points you would have counsel too ? lord stafford . to all of them , my lords . lord high steward . would you have counsel to the first point , to argue what the law of parliaments is concerning the continuance of impeachments from parliament to parliament . lord stafford , my lords , if you will declare the law to be as these gentlemen say , i must acquiesce . lord high steward . pardon me , my lord , i do not declare the law , but ask you whether you would have counsel to argue that point . lord stafford . my lords , i do say there is no example of it , i know there have been impeachments , but no examples of impeachments continued from parliament to parliament . lord high steward . then in the next place , for i shall propose your objections to their lordships by and by , and desire their judgment in them ; do you desire to argue by your counsel , that every overt act ought to be proved by two witnesses ? lord stafford . i do , my lords , i desire my counsel may be heard to all the points i mentioned to your lordships . lord high steward . have you counsel ready to speak to these points now ? lord stafford . yes , my lords . lord high steward . are they prepared to speak to them now ? lord stafford . they are , my lords . lord high steward . if they be so , what hurt will there be in hearing of them ? sir william jones . my lords , whether you will hear an argument from counsel about the law of parliaments , i hope you will please well to consider . sir fran. vvinnington . my lords , we in the house of commons do never suffer any counsel to tell us what is the course of our house and the law of parliaments ; if your lordships think fit to allow it , 't is in your own power , but we who are intrusted with the management of this cause by the house of commons have no direction to consent to such a thing . lord high steward . we will hear counsel to save time upon that point , whether in proof of a treason for killing the king , every overt act ought to be proved by two witnesses . sir william jones . if your lordships make a doubt of it . sir fran. winnington . and if the prisoner desire it . mr. serjeant maynard . my lords , we shall not oppose it , but i shall wonder if any counsel do maintain it . lord high steward . are your counsel ready to speak to that point ? lord stafford . here they are , my lords . mr. wallop of the middle-temple , mr. saunders of the same society , and mr. hunt of gray's - inn appeared by the prisoner at the bar as his counsel . mr. wallop . may it please your lordships , we are here commanded by your lordships to attend , that if any matter of law do arise upon a case proved , agreed , and judged by your lordships debateable , then in due time we are to conform our selves to your lordships command , and argue those points for my lord the prisoner at the bar. but if your lordships do think that the points urged by my lord are not debateable in law , i have so high an opinion of your lordships judgment , and such a mean opinion of my own talent , that i shall not undertake to argue extempore in this great assembly , in a cause of so high a nature . lord high steward . look you , sir , you are of my lords counsel . mr. wallop . i am , my lords , and by the order of your lordships do attend here . lord high steward . if you think it an arguable point , you will have the judgment of my lords afterwards . will you argue it now ? mr. vvallop . my lords , i always thought if a point be stirred in any court and thought disputable , it should be stated and agreed before it be argued . lord high steward . you are to argue for my lord , and to know the judgment of the court afterwards : would you know our opinions before hand . mr. vvallop . we would know what it is we are to argue if your lordships please . lord high steward . why , if you are provided for it , you are to maintain that by law every overt act ought to be proved by two witnesses , if you are prepared speak to it and my lords will hear you . mr. vvallop . it is true , my lords , there have been some publick resolutions concerning that point , therefore i shall be the warier what i say in that ; but , my lords , it is a matter that has been thought of great import one way or other , but i do profess at this time i am not able to undertake a solemn argument upon that point . lord stafford . my lords , i am so far from delaying this cause , that i desire it may be argued now . lord high steward . then you are not ready to speak to it . mr. vvallop . no , my lords , i am not for my own part at present , for it is impossible we should foresee what would be the point , and to apply our selves to study an unforeseen case before it be agreed , stated , and judged worthy of argument , cannot be expected from us . i have always observed it in the king's-bench . if the prisoner urge any thing and the court think it debateable , they first agree and state the case , then assign counsel , whom they do not urge to deliver an opinion presently , but give them time to prepare for it . lord high steward . mr. vvallop , it is not believed that this point is moved , but by your advice that are of my lord's council , and you should be ready to maintain the advice you give , therefore if you are so , speak . you have the protection of the court for the counsel you give in matter of law , and whatever advice you give you should maintain by law. mr. vvallop . truly , my lords , it is a point that has , as i said before , received some settlement , but whether ever in this court or no , i cannot tell . therefore i did discharge my thoughts of providing any argument till your lordships should have determined whether you will take the point upon the resolutions in the courts below to be finally settled and determined . sir william jones . so then it is agreed to be settled in the ordinary courts . lord stafford . i desire also it may be argued , whether words are an overt act. sir francis winnington . it seems the law is with us in case of a commoner , but whether it be so for a lord is the question . lord high steward . my lord stafford ; how comes it to pass that your lordship came prepared with objections , but not with counsel ready to argue them . lord stafford . mr. wallop has given you an answer , i must stand by that . lord high steward . is it your lordships pleasure that we adjourn ? lords . ay , ay. lord high steward . this house is adjourned into the parliament chamber . then the lords returned to their house in their order , and the committee of commons staid in their places to attend their resolutions . in one hours time the lords returned , and my lord high steward being seated upon the woolpack , silence was proclaimed . lord high steward . my lord stafford , my lords , since they have been withdrawn , have considered of one point , of that point chiefly which your lordship did move touching the necessity of two witnesses to every overt act alledged as evidence of high treason , that is the point you have desired counsel to speak to , and that is the point your counsel desired to know whether it was a doubtful or debateable point before they would argue it , and hereupon my lords did withdraw to consider it . and my lords have directed , that all the judges that assist them , and are here in your lordships presence and hearing , should deliver their opinions , whether it be doubtful and disputable or no. then all the judges consulted privately together , and afterwards gave their opinion seriatim , beginning with the lord cbief justice north , the lord chief justice scroggs being absent . lord chief justice north. my lords , i do here deliver my opinion , and i am cleàr in it , that if there be several overt acts or facts which are evidences of the same treason , if there be one witness to prove one such overt act at one time , and another witness to prove another overt act at another time , both the acts being evidences of the same treason , these are two sufficient witnesses of that treason , and will maintain an indictment or an impeachment of treason . i never knew any doubt made of it in any inferiour court of justice , and i have known it often resolved . lord chief baron montague . my lords , where ever treason is to be proved to every overt act , two witnesses , as i conceive , are not required . if so be there are two witnesses to several overt acts conducing to a proof of the same treason , i think they are witnesses in the judgment of the law such as the statute requires . mr. justice windham . i am of the same opinion with my lord chief justice north , and my lord chief baron , that if there be several overt acts done at several times tending to the same treason , these several acts being severally proved by several credible witnesses , though but by one witness at each time to each act , the said several acts being evidences of the same treason ; these are sufficient witnesses of that treason so proved , and will maintain an indictment or ( as i conceive ) an impeachment . mr. justice jones . my lords , if several witnesses speak to the same kind of treason , although they speak to several overt acts and give evidence of several times , the one of them speaking to one time and the other to another time , yet keeping still to the same kind of treason , they are such two witnesses as are required by the statute of edward the th , and this i do take to be the constant opinion of the courts below . mr. justice dolben . my lords , i am of the same opinion , and i know it hath been many times so resolved , i have been present when sentence hath passed upon persons by whom the same case hath been urged , and it hath been so resolved . and it hath been moved in westminster-hall , and that was the constant opinion of the judges there ; particularly in the case of sir henry vane . it was upon solemn debate resolved , and divers times it hath been held , that the same treason may be proved by two witnesses to several overt acts , though one speak of words or actions that were spoken or done at one time and in one place , and another speak of words or actions at another time and in another place , those are two good witnesses in treason within the intent of the law , and if the law were otherwise 't were scarce possible to convict any man of treason , and therefore i take it to be very clear . mr. justice raymond . i am of the same opinion , that where several cirstances are brought to prove the same treason , one witness to each of the several circumstances is sufficient , and this , i conceive , hath been always the opinion of the judges . mr. baron atkins . my lords , i am of the same opinion , that there must be two witnesses in the case of treason is a matter without question , but there are several overt acts that may contribute to the effecting of that treason . if a man designs to kill the king , and buyes powder at one place at one time , and a pistol at another place at another time , and promises a reward to one to assist him to do the thing at a third place and a third time ; these are several overt acts , but if the law requires that each be proved by two witnesses i do not well see how any man can be convicted of treason . in the case of sir henry vane and others , this very question was started but was not thought worthy of debate , if it should be otherwise it would touch the judgments which have been given upon this kind of proof , and what would the consequence of that be , but that those persons who were executed upon those judgments have suffered illegally ; and therefore i am of opinion that it is not requisite there should be two witnesses to every overt act. mr. baron gregory . my lords , i am of the same opinion , it is treason to conspire the death of the king ; now each of the witnesses is a witness to prove that treason , the one says he offered him such a reward , in such a place , that is one witness to prove that he conspired the death of the king , and another says , that he offered him such a reward in another place , that is another witness that he conspired the death of the king. for the party is indicted upon one particular overt act , but he is indicted for treason in conspiring the death of the king , and each of th● witnesses being to prove that , though they speak to several acts they are good witnesses according to the law. mr. baron weston . my lords , i am of the same opinion with my reverend brethren who have spoke before me . mr. justice charlton . my lords , i am of the same opinion , and i think truly it would be the easiest matter for a man to commit treason , and escape without questioning , if it should be otherwise . but this is the first time that i have heard it hath been made a question , that to the same treason there must be two witnesses to every overt act. it hath been adjudged always according to the law , that to prove treason there must be two witnesses , but to any overt act there needs but on● . lord high steward . my lord stafford , by the uniform opinion of all my lords the judges , there is no colour to doubt the law in that point which you desire to argue ; so that as to that point you must rest satisfied , you are not to have counsel to speak to it . for the rest i have no commission yet from my lords to say any thing . lord stafford . will your lordships give me leave to say one thing to what i have heard , i would answer , if i might , only to one judge , i think they call him judge atkins . lord high steward . your lordship may say what you please . lord stafford . my lords , i hear a strange position , i never heard the like before in my life , and 't is what he said , if i am in the wrong i beg your lordships pardon and his too . he told your lordships the reason why the law should be so , was because else a great many of those persons that have already been executed must have been acknowledged unjustly cut off and put to death , that is an argument i hope will not weigh with your lordships or any body , for 't is better that a thousand persons that are guilty should escape , than that one innocent person should die , much more then that it should not be declared , that such a judgment was not well given . lord high steward . look you , my lord , where many reasons are given 't is easie to make a reply to one of the least among many , that was one reason given , but the true reason is this , if the law were otherwise there would be great safety in conspiring the death of the king. lord stafford . my lords , i say nothing further as to the rest , but this stuck with me . i am sorry to hear a judge should say any such thing , and though i am in such a weak and disturbed condition , i assure your lordships my blood rises at it . lord high steward . is it your lordships pleasure that we should adjourn ? lords . ay , ay. lord high steward . then this house is adjourned into the parliament chamber . the lords withdrew in their order , and the committee of commons went back to their house . mr. speaker resumed the chair . a message was sent from the lords by sir timothy baldwyn and sir samuel clarke . mr. speaker , the lords have sent us to acquaint this house , that they have ordered william viscount stafford to be brought again to the bar in westminster-hall , on munday morning next at ten of the clock . after which the house of commons adjourned to eight of the clock on munday morning . the sixth day . munday , december . . about the hour of eleven in the morning , the lords being adjourned into westminster-hall going thither in their former order into the court there erected ; and mr. speaker having left the chair , the committee of commons were seated as before . the court being sate , proclamation for silence was made , and the lieutenant commanded to bring his prisoner to the bar , which being done , the lord high steward began . lord high steward . read my lord stafford's petition . to the right honourable the lords in parliament assembled , the humble petition of william viscount of stafford . humbly shewing unto your lordships , that he hath some things to offer unto your lordships in order to clear himself , which he hopeth to do . your petitioner doth therefore with all humility , most humbly beseech your lordships to give him leave to offer some things unto your lordships consideration , and your petitioner shall ever pray , &c. stafford . lord high steward . my lord stafford , my lords have been willing upon your petition to come and hear what that is that your lordship hath to offer : and they would know whether it be matter of fact or matter of law. for your lordship must know , that as to witnesses the process is closed . lord stafford . i do not pretend any more witnesses , my lords . lord high steward . then my lord what is it that you would say ? lord stafford . my lords , i did yesterday receive an order from your lordships , and upon that and some other things that i have to trouble your lordships with , i did petition for this favour , which i humbly thank your lordships for granting . if i be impertinent i shall beg your lordships pardon , and i hope you will be pleased to consider my weakness at all times , especially in this condition i am now in , but i hope by your lordships favour to be in an happier one quickly . for the matters of proof i shall offer not a tittle , but , my lords , this order which i received does say , that the lords assembled in parliament have ordered , that my counsel shall not be heard touching the continuance of impeachments from parliament to parliament ; but i hope my lords , you will please without offence , to let me offer to your lordships my own conceptions about it , which i shall do as briefly as i can . my lords , i do not conceive by this order , that your lordships say it does or it does not continue : you have given no judgment as i know of in it , when you have i shall acquiesce , but i hope your lordships will resolve that it does not . and , my lords , my reasons for it are two ; the first is , because one of the managers for the house of commons , as i take it sir william jones said these words , and your lordships may remember them , that if there were no such president your lordships would make a president , whether you will or no that i must submit to your lordships , but then there is none yet . the next thing is , my lords , this , whether an impeachment be to be prosecuted in parliament without an indictment : this , my lords , i humbly hope your lordships are resolved , it ought not : for i see not how truely , my lords , it can be , by the little reading which i have had in the law , i never found any man prosecuted in a legal way but by an indictment , i may be mistaken , and i beg your lordships pardon for troubling you with my mistakes , but i never read of any that were prosecuted upon an impeachment ; so then the legal usual word being indictment , i hope your lordships will not alter the form , for i hope you will keep that great maxim of your noble ancestors , nolumus leges angliae mutare , and whether this be a change of the law or no , i submit it to your lordships . a third thing is this , your lordships do not think fit that my counsel shall plead to that point , whether words do amount to an overt act , for hearing my counsel to that likewise i do not pretend , but i hope your lordships will give me leave to say this , i never heard that words did amount to an overt act , if your lordships judge otherwise , i submit , but till then i hope it shall not conclude me . there were some other points which i did offer to your lordships , and i humbly beseech you to know , whether my counsel shall be heard to them ; 't is true , one of them , which was , whether two witnesses in several places did amount to a legal testimony or no , your lordships did not declare one way or another : if you say you acquiesce in the opinion of the judges , i must submit , but till judgment is given , i beseech your lordships to give me leave to tell you my weak thoughts about it . i did not hear what the judges said all of them , but as i apprehend they were all of one opinion ; 't is true , one of them that spoke last , i think it was judge atkins , did say it did amount to a legal testimony , because else those juries that have found some guilty upon the same sort of evidence should be perjured ; but if this were not so , then upon the same grounds , under your lordships favour , those juries that acquitted some upon such testimony were perjured , but i must believe it to be otherwise till your lordships have declared it as your opinion , for that reason will not hold , for the same reason will be for the perjuring the one , as for the perjuring the other . and the same juries for the most part tryed those that were found guilty and those that were acquitted . lord high steward . is this all your lordship will please to say ? lord stafford . no , my lords , if you would give me leave i would trouble you a little farther , if it were an offence i would not say a word . my lords , i do conceive i am not concerned in the general plot of the papists ; for i am not proved to be so , and whatsoever i may be in my self , as i conceive , or whatsoever there is of hearsay , i hope your lordships will not go upon that , but upon what is proved secundum allegata & probata , and that common fame will condemn no man , if it do , then no man is safe , but i must say there is not one word of proof offered that i am a papist . i hope , my lords , i have cleared my self to your lordships and made my innocency appear , by making appear the perjury of the witnesses , and the falshood of those things they said against me . against dugdale i have proved it by two of his own witnesses , the one was eld the woman that swore for him , that he took up a glass of cyder and wished that it might be his poyson if he knew any thing of the plot , the other was whitby , who says , he had given my lord aston's father warning long ago what a knave he was . so 't is clear , for dr. oats i hope from his contradictions against himself as well as dugdale , who does contradict himself , at one time august , at another time the latter end of august or the beginning of september : and i hope your lordships will give no credit to oats's testimony , for he said before your lordships he had declared all he knew , ( 't is true i was then accused , but not for having a commission as he now swears ) and afterwards he accused the queen , so here is oats against oats and dugdale against dugdale ; and for turbervill i have proved by his affidavit , first he swears one thing and then another , and the truth of it is , his brother proved him false in his last oath , that it was ( ● ) and not ( . ) my lords , 't is not my part to make any question , nor do i , whether a plot or no plot ; for i am not concerned in it : if what i shall say now be impertinent , i humbly beg your lordships pardon . my lords , i have been by the most of my friends , at least every one that came to me , particularly by my . wife and daughter that is near me , persuaded to tell all that i knew , and i do here in the presence of almighty god declare what i know to be true . lord ▪ high steward . what says my lord ? speak out . lord stafford . my lords , i do believe since the reformation from the church of rome to ( what it is now established ) the church of england , those of that religion have had several wicked and ill designs and plots : i do believe they had a design in queen elizabeth's time , babbington's plot , ( that is a long time ago ) how far it was to take away the queens life i can't tell , but a plot it was : i do believe there was another in her time , called , earl of westmorland's plot , wherein there was a rebe●●ion in the north , for which some fled and some were executed , that was a very ill design : as for those poysonings of her saddle and the like , i take them to be but stories . in king james's time , in the first year of his reign , there was a wicked plot composed by actors , some of one religion , some of another , there was my lord grey , my lord cobham , my lord brooke , and others such , they were condemned all of them , some fled , as markham and bainham , those lords and sir walter rawleigh were reprived and kept long in the tower. but sir walter rawleigh was afterwards upon that same judgment beheaded , and the lords dyed in the tower. my lords , next to that was the execrable treason that i spoke of at ▪ first , the gun-powder-treason : and i protest before almighty god , i did from my infancy detest and abhor those men that were engaged in it , and i do think , and always did think , the wit of man nor the devils malice , can't invent an excuse for it : for the men concerned they all acknowledged it , confessed it ▪ and beg'd pardon of the king and god , and all good men for it , that is all i shall say to that now . my lords , since his majesties happy restauration i do conceive , and i think i may safely say it , ( for you all know it , he was gracious and good to all dissentersd particularly to them of the romish church , they had connivance and indulgence in their private houses , and i declare to your lordships , i did then say to some that were too open in their worship that they did play foul in taking more liberty upon them than was fitting for them too , and that brought the misfortune upon me which i will not name . my lord● , it was not long ago that your lordships at your own bar did allow all the dissenters from the church of england to give some reasons to your lordships why those laws that were against them should be repealed , as well protestant dissenters as those of the church of rome , and why they should have some kind of toleration ; among whom you did permit those of the romish religion to appear too , i forget their names . and i remember particularly one of the forts of them , an anabaptist i think , did urge for a reason , that which is a great truth , that they held rebellion to be the sin of whitchcrast , i believe it is as bad as any sin can be . my lords , that came to nothing at that time , but , my lords , i believe that after that all of all religions had meetings among themselves to endeavour to get that toleration which they proposed humbly to your lordships , there i will never deny , my lords , that my opinion was , and is , that this kingdom can never be happy till an act of parliament pass to this effect ; it was my opinion then , and i did endeavour it all i could that the dissenting protestants might have a comprehension , and the other a toleration ; i acknowledge it to be my intention , and i think it was no ill one ; for if that be a true copy of the commons votes which is in print , there is some such thing designing there as a comprehension ; and i was of opinion that it were sufficient that such as were of the church of rome might by act of parliament serve god in their own houses , and privately in their own way , not in publick , and that for it they should pay something to the king out of their estates , but truly not much ; that they should be severely punished if they or any of them did endeavour to persuade any subject to their opinion , or did come to court , or enjoy any office whatsoever , though it were but that of a scavenger , but that they should pay their proportion to all chargeable offices ; that i profess , my lords , was my opinion , and i confess to your lordships 't is so still . i was in some hopes that it would have been done in that sessions , because i was afraid it was unlikely to be done at any time else . i confess to your lordships i was heartily and cordially against the test , because it hindred those just and honest things that were for the good of the kingdom . my lords , there was the first or or the second day brought into your lordships house , the record of mr. coleman's tryal , and for the letters in it , i do my lords , declare to your lordships , i never read of one of them before , but i have read them since they have been in print ; and when i read them first cursorily over , my opinion was , and is , that coleman's endavouring by money out of france , and keeping off the parliament to get a toleration , was that which he could not justifie by law , how fat it was criminal , that i do not know , i am not so skilled in the law , i think it was not justifiable , but he hath paid for it severely since . my lords , i do declare that ever since i had the honour to fit among your lordships , which is now years ( for in the year . i was by his majesties favour called up a peer ) i have valued my self upon the honour of sitting with you ; and i do declare when i have sat in this house , when your lordships have desired the king when it was hot weather and unseasonable , to put off the sitting of the parliament , i was never glad of it , but sorry when they were prorogued but for a short time . this i profess is true , and i hope i am no criminal in it ; for i do value the parliaments sitting to be the only means to keep this kingdom quiet . my lords , 't is very true by coleman's letters , and what i have seen in print since , i do believe there have been some consultations for a toleration ; and if i had known as much then as i have since i have been in the tower , i had perhaps prevented many things ; for , my lords , i hold england to be a great and an happy body ; but it is as other great bodies are , it may be now , as you know before it was , over-grown or sick ; it was then , and i pray god it be not now , but i hold nothing can cure it but that old english physician , the king , your lordships and the commons in parliament assembled . but if i had known any such design , as coleman's letters do hint , i would not have continued in england . my lords , for that damnable opinion of king-killing , if i were of any church whatsoever , and found that to be its principle , i would leave it . my lords , this is as true as i can speak any thing in the world , i beg your lordships pardon for troubling you with my impertinencies , and hope you pardon it to my weakness . my lords , i do profess before almighty god , and before your lordships my judges , i know no one tittle nor point of the plot ; and if i did i hold my self bound to declare it . for the present i shall say little more , unless the managers give me occasion ; if they will reply , and make any objections i desire i may answer them . i know the great disadvantages i am under , when these gentlemen , who are great scholars and learned men , reply upon me , who have those great helps of memory , parts , and understanding in the law , all which i want . and therefore i hope your lordships will dot conclude me upon what they or i have said , but will be pleased to debate the matter among your selves , and be as well my counsel as my judges . my lords , when i offer to your lordships matter of law , i did in no wise admit the matter of fact. — lord high steward . my lord , i cannot hear you . lord stafford , my lords , if your lordships please , that paper may be read . lord high steward . deliver your paper in , my lords cannot hear . lord stafford . i cannot ●eny to your lordships , that what happened to me on saturday night , disturbed me very much . every day since i came ●●ther , there hath been such shouting and houting by a company of barbarous rabble , as never was heard the like , i believe , but it was at a distance most of the time , and so it did not much concern me . but saturday night it was so near and so great , that really it hath disturbed me ever since ; it was great to day , but at a distance ; if it were not thus , i should not offer a paper to be read ; i scarce know what i do or say considering the circumstances ▪ i am in . lord high steward . take my lords paper and read it . sir thomas lee. my lords , i desire you will please to consider whether this may not introduce a new custom by reading of this paper . as to what my lord is pleased to say , i am sorry for the occasion that any disturbance should arise to my lord , from the rabble , or any one else ; i hope his lordship believes we cannot help , nor do we contribute to that disturbance . but we desire your lordships to consider whether this practise of having things written down for the clerk to read , may not introduce a custom , which may in time grow inconvenient for future example . i see no great danger in the particular instance before your lordships now , but it is dangerous in such cases to do any thing that is new in this court. lord high steward . all the matter is , whether it be read by my lord , who cannot be heard , or read by the clerk. sir thomas lee. we only oppose it out of fear of making a president , which may be of ill consequence . lord high steward . read it , my lord , and raise your voice , for it concerns you to speak out . lord stafford . ( reading out of his paper . ) my lords , when i offered matter of law to your lordships , on saturday last , i did in no wise admit the matter of fact to be true that was alledged against me , and so i desire to be understood . and i hope your lordships will not lay the less weight upon the testimony of my witnesses because they are not sworn ; for the law does not suffer them to be sworn , which is no fault of mine , nor ought not to turn to my prejudice . i must appeal to your lordships judgments in point of fact , how far the kings witnesses are to be believed against me , considering the whole matter , and my counter-proof . next i submit to your lordships judgments this point , that the impeachment being founded upon the common law , and the statute of th . edw. . and not upon the statute of th . of this king , two of the witnesses , dugdale and turbervill , do only swear treasonable words spoken by me , and not my overt act ; for they swear only that i promised them money and rewards to kill the king. now i humbly pray your lordships judgment , whether bare speaking of words be an overt act , and treason at the common law , or upon that statute ; and whether there be more than speaking of words in a consult , or otherwise proved by dugdale and turbervill , i appeal to you ; then the other witness , oats , is but a single witness , who speaks of the receiving of a commission . this is that i offer to your lordships now for your judgments , and then i desire i may have your opinion in other things . lord high steward . is this all your lordship hath to say ▪ lord stafford . for the present , my lords . lord high steward . you must say all you have to say now . lord stafford . is it your lordships pleasure to hear counsel to nothing at all ? i did likwise alledge to your lordships th' other day , that people that swear for money , are not competent credible witnesses ; how far that was proved , or i may prove by my counsel , i submit to your lordships . lord high stewared . look you , my lord , you have so far received already the pleasure of the house : you have raised several questions of law , whether every overt act require two witnesses to prove it . you have had the opinion of the judges , and there is no more to be said in it . as to that , whether impeachments continue from parliament to parliament , and the other thing , whether proceedings may be upon an impeachment without an indictment ; these are matters of the course and constitutions of parliaments , my lords will consider of them by themselves , and will permit no counsel to argue them . for the other point , that words are no overt act , that rests for their opinion in another case , when it shall come , for they have now no such case before them . lord stafford . thumbly conceive there is . lord high steward . there is a great difference between bare words being an overt act , and perswasion by promises of money and rewards to kill the king , which is a very great overt act. lord stafford . is it possible to do an act by words ? if it be so , i never heard it before . lord high steward . otherwise men may promise rewards to ● several persons to kill the king , and then say 't is all but words . lord stafford . i say it not , but i humbly conceive the law says it . lord high steward . what say you , gentlemen of the house of commons ? lord stafford . my lords , i have something to say , which i desire to speak first : my lords , i hope i have cleared to your lordships , that all the witnesses have swore false against me , and this i have made out by proofs ; i say not much to that . — ( my lord was searching for his papers ) truly , my lords i am confounded with the noise and other circumstances , but my lords , i shall , if your lordships please to give me leave , humbly represent my case to you , how i take it to be in matter of fact as to my own condition not any thing , but how i am now before your lordships . i was , my lords , committed by my lord chief justices warrant , on the . or . of october , ( . ) friday , the . of october , i was brought to your lordships bar , i was impeached ; i do not remember the day , my lords , the beginning of december , in one parliament articles exhibited against me , in another parliament i was brought upon these articles exhibited , and being called to your lordships bar , the articles were read to me , and i gave in my answer , that was sometime in may ( . ) and in the end of may the . ( if i mistake not , if i do , i desire it may be rectified by your books ) i with the other lords , were brought to this place in order to our trial. we staid some time there , and then were remanded by your order to the tower , where i continued till november twelve month after , without having heard any thing concerning it ; so that i was first impeached in one parliament , articles brought against me and pleaded to in a second , and now brought to my trial in a third ; and what your lordships will say upon this , i submit to you , and whether these be proceedings according to law , your lordships will judge . my lords , i humbly conceive that magna charta says , that justice shall be denied nor delayed to no man , whether it hath not been delayed to me , let your lordships judge . if you say the prorogation of the parliament is the cause of that delay , i hope your lordships will give me leave to say , that from the . of december to the . when the first parliament was prorogued , or during the session of the other parliament , there was time enough sure wherein i might have been brought to my trial ; and if these proceedings be lawful and just , there is no man living , but may be kept off from time to time , till some accidents happen that their ends may be gained . i leave it to your judgment , whether it may be only my case now , or of some of your lordships in future ages , to be accused of things that you never heard of before , and not brought to justifie your selves , but kept in prison . my lords , there is a statute , i have forgot where it is ( but such a one i have read ) that though the king by his great seal , or little seal , command that justice should be delaid or denied , yet however the judges shall not obey it , but proceed . so i hope there is no pretence of delay on my part , and the benefit of that statute shall not be denied me . and that statute of the great charter , which cost so many of your ancestors their lives to maintain , i hope you will never go from . now , your lordships noble ancestors amongst other things , took great care that justice should be denied or delayed to none ; and this i desire you to take into consideration . i am in your lordships judgment either to be acquitted or condemned . i hope your lordships will , and i know you will lay your hands upon your hearts , consult your consciences and your honours , and then you will do what is just and equitable i doubt not . my lords , mr. oats said i came by the name of mr. howard of essingham , but that i did to my letters sign stafford ; surely , my lords , if i was ashamed to own my person , i should have been as much ashamed to have owned my name . he says he saw me take a commission , and whether that be an overt act , your lordships are to determine . upon the whole matter , i conceive , there is nothing proved against me , but words , nor pretended to ▪ but only by oats . and whether you will credit a man that so dissembles with god , as i have told you , i appeal to your lordships , and beg you to consider of it . that these witnesses have sworn for money , if you send to the exchequer office and see what money they have received , you will find by the great sums that 't is so , and then i hope you will not allow them to be heard , nor credit any that swear for gain . i had a suit in westminster-hall , that had like to have gone expresly against me , only because one of my witnesses was to gain l. if the suit went for me . but pray consider how much these men have had . and for the point that there are not two witnesses , i beseech your lordships , give me leave to put you in mind , that not many years ago , you passed an act against frauds and perjuries , wherein you were so careful to preserve mens estates , that you required three witnesses to prove a will of goods or lands , above l. and will you allow but one witness to take away a mans life for words ? though your lordships will never commit treason , yet no man can preserve himself from the misfortune that happens to me , of being falsly accused . 't is true , my lords , the managers have given an answer to the business of the money , by saying , the king may give as liberally as he pleases , but to give so great sums , whereby men poor before , are now become rich , i think will be an objection against their credit . my lords , i have said what i do think convenient , though i think much more might be said by an abler man to your lordships , for the clearing of himself . i hope i have done it , nay , i am confident i have ; and this i have done for the memory of that great and blessed king , who first made me a peer , that it may not be said , he did me the honour forty years ago to call me up to this dignity , and i should fly in the face of his son in so horrible a manner as these men would make me . i do owe it to the honour of my father and mother , who , i think , i may safely say , were both honourable and worthy persons : my father was a learned man , and a wise man , as i may appeal to some of your lordships who knew him well ; i say , i owe it to their memory , and to the honour of the family from whence i sprang , which all the world knows what it is . and i should be an infamous man to dishonour them so much as to bear their name , and commit treason . my lords , i owe it to my wife , who hath been a very kind wife to me as ever man had : she is heiress at law to the great estate of that great and unfortunate man stafford , duke of buckingham , who was cut offin the reign of king henry the eighth , and all his estate , if it were not for that attainder , would have come to her . i may be impertinent in telling your lordships what it was , but i do not over-say it , when i reckon it would have been at this day two hundred thousand pounds a year , for it was seventeen thousand pounds a year in those days penny rent , besides other emoluments . this is an extravagant thing to say , but 't is true , something thereof does ▪ remain to her , which i now enjoy . i owe it to all my children , especially to my eldest son , who is a young man , and i may say of far better parts and hopes than his father , and whom , i hope , will serve his country . i owe it to all my friends and relations , for i would not have it said after-my death , my wife was the widow of a traytor . i owe it to all these , but above all i owe it to god almighty , then when i come to be judged by him , i may give a good account of what he hath intrusted me with , that i may not appear as an infamous man who knows he hath a body , but not his own , and yet should throw it and his soul away together . and if i should have committed this execrable treason , i should have been guilty of my own murder : first , in the committing a crime worthy of death ; and then in not confessing to save my life . i hold murder an extraordinary crime , the worst next to treason : and i know , if i should not prevent my death by confessing all i knew , i should have been guilty of self-murder , the worst of murders . i know your lordships will lay to heart , what an execrable thing murder is and the blood of innocents ; and i hope there is none of the house of commons , but after this evidence , will clear me . i am sure none of them would have me punished for that i am not guilty of . i do not blame these gentlemen of the house of commons for prosecuting , nor the first for impeaching ; for they had , without all doubt , reasons great enough for it upon what evidence they had before them , before they knew what the witnesses were . i know your lordships will not in the least point vary from justice , or the law of the land , and i desire you to lay the whole matter to your hearts ; i have not the least suspicion of the partiality of any man in the house , nay , i profess , if i had an enemy and he were not here , i would beg of you that he might come . i have cleared my self before your lordshships , and i hope i shall not be run down by the wicked rabble , which where it will end , god knows . it began in the late times against my lord of strafford , and so continued till it ended in that most execrable fact , one of them that ever was done . a wicked beginning it was , and it had a wicked end . for since our saviours death and murder by the jews , never was so execrable a murder in the world ; and whoever had an hand in it without an extraordinary repentance , can have no thoughts of salvation . i never could serve the king , 't is true , but in my desires , and i never disserted him in thought , word , or deed to my knowledg in my life , much less did i ever contrive or consent to his death . i do in the presence of god , angels , your lordships , and all men , declare , i do know no more of the plot , or any such thing than any one here does . that those of the romish religion had meetings , i believe , to obtain those ends that i spake of before : coleman went too far , how far he was criminal in it i cann't tell . meetings , i say , there were , but i was never at one of them , nor do i know what was done there . i do leave it to your lordships to do justice , as i know you will , and with all submission i resign my self up to you . lord high steward . have you done , my lord ? lord stafford . if your lordships will not allow me counsel to argue those points , i have done . lord high steward . what say you gentlemen of the house of commons ? mr. serjeant maynard . my lords , some thing that my lord hath spoken hath been resolved against him , that is about two witnesses to each overt-act ; some things are not to be disputed about the law and course of parliaments , some things were not to be said now , because he had said them before . my lords ▪ we had concluded our evidence , and he is pleased to take up the time with repeating what was said before . for the other matters that my lord is pleased to discourse of , all he says is but his obligations , and how unreasonable it were for him to do it ; the question is whether he hath done it or no ; if he hath , his obligations are an aggravation of his crime , not an excuse . his relations , his family , and other things are nothing before your lordships now in point of judgment , nor is there any thing new said to day , that was not said before . sir william jones my lords , i should not add one word ▪ further , were it not that this noble lord is pleased upon his memory , or rather without , to say something of me , and that was , that speaking of the continuance of proc●edings i should say , if your lordships had no president i hope you would make one ; my lords , i do appeal to your lordships memory whether i said any thing like it , i utterly deny it , nor was there any occasion for it . for there was no need of urging presidents , when your lordships upon a conference with the commons , did declare it to be the law of proceedings in parliament , and did then fortifie i● with many arguments . i know my lords memory is not very good ; i 'm sure in this he is very much m●staken . my lord hath been pleased to complain he hath received much disturbance , and that the noise and shouts have been so great that they have occasioned some l●straction in him . my lords , i am sure his lordship cannot mean us ; for i appeal to your lordships , and all that have heard this tryal , whether he hath received the least disturbance or interruption from us , or whether we have not treated him with that respect that becomes his dignity , and the discretion that ought to be in the managers of the house of commons . but i must needs say , that his lordship hath received distraction from those friends or counsel of his that put those many papers into his hand ; for he hath read one after another that do contain the same matter over and over again . these i confess were sufficient to distract him , or any other that should make use of them . his lordship hath been pleased to go off from the matter of law , to the matter of fact , and backward and forward , so that it is impossible to follow him : and as to the matter of fact we shall decline to follow him ; for though we have not given his lordship any disturbance , yet we submit to your judgment whether it be regular , or according to the course of proceedings , when his lordship hath sum'd up his evidence , and we that are the prosecutors have concluded ours , he should begin that work again , which if it should be admitted we were to reply , and he might rejoin upon us , and so there would be no end of proceedings . and , my lords , i hope , though this lord hath had the favour to do it , yet it shall not for the future be brought into example , for it will make tryals endless . my lords , for the matter of law , there is nothing that deserves an answer , for though the law does admit the prisoner counsel in matters of law , yet it must be in things doubtful : and if there be any thing of that in our case , i submit it to your lordships . i am sure i have heard nothing new but what hath been over-ruled already , unless it be a matter of law which rises upon a matter of fact , and that not proved , to wit , the corruption of witnesses . the last day all was said by his lordship he could say , and all said by us that we thought fit to say , and now to begin the same matter again , i think ought not to be admitted . we shall not follow his lordship in that way of proceedings , and hope it shall never fall into example . sir francis winnington . my lords , i have only one word to say to your lordships , and that is in relation to the proceedings of the commons in this cause ; for if the cause had not been of an extraordinary nature , we should have stood upon it , that the prisoner ought not after the prosecutors had concluded to have taken a liberty of reading and repeating what we had said over and over again . we know , my lords , there are are a sort of men in the world , who are willing to lay hold of any pretences to cavil at our proceedings , and therefore we have let my lord take all this liberty , that so his party might have no colour of complaint . his lordship was pleased to say the last day , that he had not a witness more to produce , nor a reason to give , as i understood him ; and therefore he must own that we have been very tender to him in all our proceedings . one thing my lord insinuates to day , which i cannot forbear taking notice of , as if we had delayed him , which is without cause ; we had used all diligence in preparing our selves , and were soon ready when the king was pleased to let the parliament sit , and therefore it can be no imputation on us ; and truly if my lord considers the weight of the evidence , i fear he will think his tryal comes soon enough now . lord stafford . my lords , i desire to be rightly understood in one thing , and 't is only this , i did not say the house of commons shouted at me , but the rabble . lord high steward . is it your lordships pleasure to adjourn ? lords . ay , ay. lord high steward . then this house is adjourned to the parliament chamber . then the lords withdrew in their former order , and the committee of commons went back to their house . mr. speaker resumed the chair . a message was sent from the lords by sir timothy baldwyn and sir samuel clarke . mr. speaker , the lords have commanded us to acquaint this house , that they have appointed william viscount stafford to be brought to the bar in westminster-hall to morrow morning at ten of the clock to receive judgment . the commons adjourned to eight of the clock the next morning . the seventh day . tuesday , december . . about the hour of eleven , the lords adjourned into westminster-hall , going thither in their former order into the court there erected ; and mr. speaker having left the chair , the committee of commons were seated as before . the lords being sate , proclamation was made for silence ; and the lord high steward being seated on the wool-pack , with garter principal king of arms , the usher of the black rod ▪ nine maces attending him , with all the rest of the solemnity , as was at first expressed , took the votes of the peers upon the evidence , beginning at the puisne baron , and so upwards , in this order , the lord stafford being ( as the law requires ) absent . lord high steward . my lords , i am an humble suitor to your lordships , that you will give me leave to collect your votes as i sit , for i am not able to stand . which being granted , the lord high steward proceeded . lord high steward . my lord butler of weston , is william lord viscount stafford guilty of the treason whereof he stands impeached , or not guilty ? lord butler . not guilty upon my honour . the same question was put to the rest , whose names and votes follow . lord arundel of trerice . not guilty upon my honour . lord crewe . guilty upon my honour . lord cornwallis . guilty upon my honour . lord holles . not guilty upon my honour . lord wootton . not guilty upon my honour . lord rockingham . guilty upon my honour . lord lucas . not guilty upon my honour . lord astley . guilty upon my honour . lord ward . not guilty upon my honour . lord byron . not guilty upon my honour . lord hatton . not guilty upon my honour . lord leigh . guilty upon my honour . lord herbert of cherbury . guilty upon my honour . lord howard of escrick . guilty upon my honour . lord maynard . guilty upon my honour . lord lovelace . guilty upon my honour . lord deincourt . not guilty upon my honour . lord grey of wark . guilty upon my honour . lord brook. guilty upon my honour . lord norreys . not guilty upon my honour . lord chandos . guilty upon my honour . lord north and grey . guilty upon my honour . lord pagett . guilty upon my honour . lord wharton . guilty upon my honour . lord eure. guilty upon my honour . lord cromwell . guilty upon my honour . lord windsor . not guilty upon my honour . lord conyers . guilty upon my honour . lord ferrers . not guilty upon my honour . lord morley ▪ not guilty upon my honour . lord mowbray . not guilty upon my honour . lord viscount newport . guilty upon my honour . lord viscount faulconberge . guilty upon my honour . earl of conway . guilty upon my honour . earl of berkley . not guilty upon my honour . earl of maslesfield . guilty upon my honour . earl of hallifax . not guilty upon my honour . earl of feversham . not guilty upon my honour . earl of sussex . guilty upon my honour . earl of guilford . guilty upon my honour . earl of shaftsbury . guilty upon my honour earl of burlington . guilty upon my honour . earl of ailesbury . not guilty upon my honour . earl of craven . not guilty upon my honour . earl of carlisle . guilty upon my honour . earl of bath . not guilty upon my honour . earl of essex . guilty upon my honour . earl of clarendon . not guilty upon my honour . earl of st ▪ albans . not guilty upon my honour . earl of scarsdale . guilty upon my honour . earl of sunderland . guilty upon my honour . earl of thanet . not guilty upon my honour . earl of chesterfield . not guilty upon my honour . earl of carnarvan . not guilty upon my honour . earl of winchelsea . guilty upon my honour . earl of stamford . guilty upon my honour . earl of peterborough . not guilty upon my honour . earl rivers . guilty upon my honour . earl of mulgrave . guilty upon my honour . earl of barkshire . guilty upon my honour . earl of manchester . guilty upon my honour . earl of westmorland . guilty upon my honour . earl of clare . guilty upon my honour . earl of bristol . guilty upon my honour . earl of denbigh . not guilty upon my honour . earl of northampton . guilty upon my honour . earl of leicester . guilty upon my honour . earl of bridgwater . guilty upon my honour . earl of salisbury . guilty upon my honour . earl of suffolk . guilty upon my honour . earl of bedford . guilty upon my honour . earl of huntingdon . guilty upon my honour . earl of rutland . not guilty upon my honour . earl of kent . guilty upon my honour . earl of oxford . guilty upon my honour . lord chamberlain . not guilty upon my honour . marquess of worcester . not guilty upon my honour . duke of newcastle . not guilty upon my honour . duke of monmouth . guilty upon my honour . duke of albemarle . guilty upon my honour . duke of buckingham . guilty upon my honour . lord privy-seal . guilty upon my honour . lord president . guilty upon my honour . lord high steward . guilty upon my honour . prince rupert duke of cumberland . guilty upon my honour . lord high steward . my lords , upon telling your votes , i find there are thirty one of my lords that think the prisoner not guilty , and fifty five that have found him guilty . serjeant make proclamation for the lieutenant of the tower to bring his prisoner to the bar. ( which was done , and his lordship came to the bar. ) lord high steward . my lord stafford , i have but heavy tidings for you , your lordship hath been impeached of high-treason , you have pleaded not guilty , my lords have heard your defence , and have considered of the evidence , and their lordships do find you guilty of the treason whereof you are impeached . lord stafford . gods holy name be praised , my lords , for it . lord high steward . what can your lordship say for your self , why judgment of death should not be given upon you according to the law ? lord stafford . my lords , i have very little to say , i confess i am surprized at it , for i did not expect it ; but gods will be done , and your lordships , i will not murmur at it : god forgive those that have sworn falsly against me . my lords , i conceive i have something to say for respit of judgment ; i have been at many tryals in my life , but i never saw any tryal where the party tried did not hold up his hand , which i was never asked to do ; i thought it had been a very material point in the law , that by the holding up of the hand he might be known to be the person . i have read , lately , since i had the misfortune to be thus accused , sir edward coke upon the pleas of the crown , and he says that misnomer , the not giving a man his right name , or addition , is likewise a just cause to arrest the judgment . there is likewise another question how far it may be valued i know not , i submit it , as i do all , to your lordships . though i am tried upon the act of edw. d. yet there is nothing more in that act , than what is included in the act of the th . of this king : and i humbly conceive , my lords , by that act , and the last proviso in it , a peer that is accused and found guilty of the crimes therein mentioned , is to lose his seat in parliament ; those are the words , and since 't is so put down in the act , it is so to be understood , and that is all the punishment . and i humbly demand your lordships judgment upon these points , whether it be so or no ? and humbly demand your lordships judgments upon these points , whether it be so or no ? lord high steward . has your lordship any more to say ? lord stafford . no , my lords , i submit to your lordships , and desire your judgment in these points . then the lords adjourned into the parliament chamber , and the committee of commons returned to their own house ; and the speaker having reassumed the chair , the whole body of the house went with their speaker to the bar of the house of lords , to demand judgment of high treason against william viscount stafford , upon the impeachment of the commons of england in parliament , in the name of the commons in parliament , and of all the commons of england . the commons , with their speaker , went back to their house . then the lords took into consideration what judgment was to be given upon william viscount stafford , and it was moved that he might be beheaded . after some debate , the judges were asked , whether if any other judgment than the usual judgment for high treason were given upon him , it would attaint his blood ? the judges were of opinion , that the judgment for high treason appointed by law , is to be drawn , hanged , and quartered , and in the courts and proceedings below , they can take no notice of any judgment for high treason , but that . then sir creswell levinz , the kings attorney-general , desired to be heard on his majesties behalf , which the house gave leave for him to be ; who said , he knew no other judgment by law for high treason , but drawing , hanging , and quartering ; if any other judgment were given , it would be prejudicial to his majesty , and be a question in the inferiour courts as to his attainder of high treason . whereupon their lordships ordered , that the lord high steward do pronounce the ordinary judgment of death upon the lord viscount stafford , as the law hath appointed in cases of high treason . and a message was sent to the house of commons from their lordships , by sir timothy baldwyn and sir samuel clark. mr. speaker , we are commanded by the lords to acquaint this house , that their lordships are going presently into westminster-hall , to give judgment against william viscount stafford . mr. speaker left the chair . the committee of commons appointed for the management of the evidence against the prisoner , with the rest of the commons , went into westminster-hall , to the court there erected , to be present when the lords gave judgment of high treason against him , upon the impeachment of the commons of england . after a short time their lordships were adjourned into westminster-hall , coming in their former order into the court there erected , where being seated , and the lord high steward being on the wool-sack , attended by garter principal king of arms , the usher of the black rod , eight of the serjeants at arms kneeling with their maces , the ninth macer making proclamation for silence ; which being done , the lord high steward gave judgment upon the prisoner as followeth . lord high steward . my lord stafford , that which your lordship hath said in arrest of judgment , hath been found by my lords upon due consideration had of it , to be of no moment at all . it is no essential part of any trial , that the prisoner should hold up his hand at the bar ; there is no record ever made of it when it is done ; the only use of it is to shew the court who the prisoner is , when that is apparent , the court does often proceed against him , though he refuse to hold up his hand at the bar ; therefore the omission of that ceremony in this case is no legal exception , as all the judges have declared . and as to the proviso's in the statute of the th . year of this king , their lordships do find that they are in no sort applicable to this case , forasmuch as the proceedings against your lordship are not grounded upon that statute , but upon the statute of the . e. . and yet if the proceedings had been upon the latter statute , the proviso's therein could have done your lordship no service at all . my part therefore which remains , is a very sad one : for i never yet gave sentence of death upon any man , and am extremely sorry that i must begin with your lordship . who would have thought that a person of your quality , of so noble an extraction , of so considerable estate and fortune , so eminent a sufferer in the late ill times , so interested in the preservation of the government , so much obliged to the moderation of it , and so personally obliged to the king and his royal father for their particular favours to you , should ever have entred into so infernal a conspiracy as to contrive the murder of the king , the ruin of the state , the subversion of religion , and , as much as in you l●y , the destruction of all the souls and bodies in three christian nations . and yet the impeachment of the house of commons amounts to no less a charge , and of this charge their lordships have found you guilty . that there hath been a general and desperate conspiracy of the papists , and that the death of the king hath been all along one chief part of the conspirators design , is now apparent beyond all possibility of doubting . what was the meaning of all those treatises which were publisht about two years since against the oath of allegiance , in a time when no man dreamt of such a controversie ? what was the meaning of father conyers's sermon upon the same subject , but only because there was a demonstration of zeal , as they call it , intended against the person of the king ? which the scruples arising from that oath did somewhat hinder . to what purpose were all the correspondencies with foreign nations ? the collections of money among the fathers abroad and at home ? what was the meaning of their governing themselves here by such advices as came frequently from paris and saint omers ? and how shall we expound that letter which came from ireland , to assure the fathers here , that all things were in a readiness there too , as soon as the blow should be given ? does any man now begin to doubt how london came to be burnt ? or by what ways and means poor justice godfrey fell ? and is it not apparent by these instances , that such is the frantick zeal of some bigotted papists , that they resolve , no means to advance the catholick cause shall be left unattempted , though it be by fire and sword ? my lord , as the plot in general is most manifest , so your lordships part in it hath been too too plain . what you did at paris , and continued to do at tixal in staffordshire , shews a settled purpose of mind against the king ; and what you said at london touching honest will , shews you were acquainted with that conspiracy against the kings life which was carrying on here too : and in all this there was a great degree of malice ; for your lordship at one time called the king heretick and traytor to god ; and at another time you revil'd him for misplacing his bounty , and rewarding none but traytors and rebels . and thus you see that which the wise man forewarn'd you of is come upon you , curse not the king , no not in thy heart : for the birds of the air shall reveal , and that which hath wings will declare the matter . three things i shall presume to recommend to your lordships consideration . in the first place , your lordship now sees how it hath pleased god to leave you so far to your self , that you are fallen into the snare , and into the pit , into that very pit which you were digging for others . consider therefore , that god almighty never yet left any man , who did not first leave him . in the next place , think a little better of it than hitherto you have done , what kind of religion that is in which the blind guides have been able to lead you on into so much ruin and destruction as is now like to befall you . in the last place , i pray your lordship to consider , that true repentance is never too late . a devout penitential sorrow , joyn'd with an humble and hearty confession , is of mighty power and efficacy both with god and man. there have been some of late , who have refus'd to give god the glory of his justice by acknowledging the crimes for which they were condemned ; nay , who have been taught to believe , that 't is a mortal sin to confess that crime in publick , for which they have been absolv'd in private ; and so have not dar'd to give god that glory which otherwise they would have done . god forbid your lordship should rest upon forms ; god forbid your lordship should be found among the number of those poor mistaken souls whom the first thing that undeceives is death it self . perhaps your lordship may not much esteem the prayers of those whom you have long been taught to miscal hereticks : but whether you do or no , i am to assure your lordship , that all my lords here , even they that have condemned you , will never cease to pray for you , that the end of your life may be christian and pious , how tragical soever the means are that must bring you thither . and now my lord , this is the last time that i can call you my lord ; for the next words i am to speak will attaint you . the judgment of the law is , and this court doth award , that you go to the place from whence you came ; from thence you must be drawn upon a hurdle to the place of execution ; when you come there , you must be hang'd by the neck , but not till you are dead ; for you must be cut down alive ; your privy-members must be cut off , and your bowels ript up before your face , and thrown into the fire ; then your head must be severed from your body , and your body divided into four quarters ; and these must be at the disposal of the king. and god almighty be merciful to your soul. prisoner . my lords , i humbly beseech you give me leave to speak a few words : i do give your lordships hearty thanks for all your favours to me . i do here in the presence of god almighty declare , i have no malice in my heart to them that have condemned me ; i know not who they are , nor desire to know ; i forgive them all , and beseech your lordships all to pray for me . my lords , i have one humble request to make to your lordships , and that is , my lords , that the little short time i have to live a prisoner , i may not be a close prisoner , as i have been of late , but that mr. lieutenant may have an order that my wife and children and friends may come at me . i do humbly beg this favour of your lordships , which i hope you will be pleased to give me . lord high steward . my lord stafford , i believe i may , with my lords leave , tell you one thing further , that my lords , as they proceed with rigour of justice , so they proceed with all the mercy and compassion that may be ; and therefore my lords will be humble suitors to the king , that he will remit all the punishment but the taking off your head. prisoner ( weeping ) my lords , your justice does not make me cry , but your goodness . then the lord high steward broke his staff , and the lords adjourned into the parliament chamber , and the commons returned to their house , and the prisoner with the ax born before him with the edg towards him ( it being carried contrarily during his trial ) was sent back to the tower. his majesty afterwards ordered the lord high chancellor to issue out under the great seal of england the following writs for executing the said late viscount stafford ; the first being to the lieutenant of the tower , to deliver him on the twenty ninth of december . between nine and eleven a clock in the forenoon , at the usual place without the tower-gate , to the sheriffs of london and middlesex ; and the other being for them then and there to receive him into their custody , and to lead him to the usual place upon tower-hill , and there to cause his head to be cut off , and severed from his body : which writs were in form following . carolus secundus dei gratia angliae , scotiae , franciae & hiberniae rex , fidei defensor , &c. locumtenenti turris nostrae london salutem ; cum willus vicecomes stafford , per communes regni nostri angliae in parliamento assemblat ' , de alta proditione , necnon diversis aliis criminibus & offensis per ipsum perpetrat ' & commissis , impetit ' fuit ; ac superinde per dominos temporales in praesenti parliamento nostro convent ' , triat ' convict ' ; & debita juris forma attinct ' fuit ; & morti adjucat ' existit : cujus quidem judicii executio adhuc restat facienda . cumque praedictus vicecomes stafford in turri nostra london , sub custodia tua detent ' existit : precipimus tibi & per presentes firmiter injungendo mandamus , quod in & super vicesimum nonum diem instantis mensis decembris , inter horas nonam , & undecimam , ante meridiem ejusdem diei , ipsum vicecomitem stafford , usque locum usualem extra portam turris predictae ducas ; ac ipsum , vicecomitibus civitatis nostrae london & middlesex , adtunc & ibidem deliberes : quibus quidem vicecomitibus , nos per aliud breve eis inde direct ' , precipimus predictum vicecomitem stafford adtunc & ibidem recipere , ut fiat executio judicii predicti , modo & forma prout dictis vicecomitibus london & middlesex , per aliud breve nostrum predictum precepimus : et hoc nullatenus omittas , sub periculo incumbente , aliquo judicio , lege , ordinatione , seu mandato praeantea habit ' , fact ' , ordinat ' , seu dat' in contrarium non obstante . teste meipso apud westm . decimo octavo die decembris , anno regni nostri tricesimo secundo . barker . carolus secundus dei gratia angliae , scotiae , franciae & hiberniae rex , fidei defensor , &c. vic. london & vic. middlesex salutem : cum will. vicecomes stafford , per communes regni nostri angliae in parliamento assemblat ' , de alta proditione , necnon diversis aliis criminibus & offenfis per ipsum perpetrat ' & commissis impetit ' fuit ; ac superinde per dominos temporales in presenti parliamento nostro convent ' , triatus , convict ' & debita juris forma , attinct ' fuit , & morti adjudicat ' existit : cujus quidem judicii executio adhuc restat facienda ; precipimus vobis , & per presentes firmiter injungendo mandamus , quod in & super vicesimum nonum diem hujus instantis decembris , inter horas nonam , & undecimam , ante meridiem ejusdem diei , dictum vicecomitem stafford , extra portam turris nostrae london , vobis tunc & ibidem deliberandum , prout per aliud breve locumtenenti turris nostrae london directum , precepimus , in custodiam vestram adtunc & ibidem recipiatis , & ipsum sic in custodia vestra existentem , statim usque usualem locum super le tower-hill ducatis ; ac caput ipsius willi. vicecomitis stafford , adtunc & ibidem amputari , ac a corpore suo omnino separari faciatis , aliquo judicio , lege , ordinatione , seu mandato praeantea habit ' , fact ' , ordinat ' , seu dat' in contrarium , non obstante : et hoc ( sub periculo incumbente ) nullatenus omittatis ; teste meipso apud westm . decimo octavo die decembris , anno regni nostri tricesimo secundo . barker . there were two writs to the sheriffs both alike verbatim , one delivered in london , the other in middlesex . whereupon the sheriffs doubting whether that was a sufficient authority for them to execute the prisoner by beheading only , the sentence of death being otherwise given , petitioned the lords in parliament to take the premises into consideration , and to make such order as should be agreeable to right and justice , as by the following petition appears . to the right honourable the lords temporal in parliament assembled ; the humble petition of slingsby bethel esq and henry cornish esq sheriffs of london and middlesex . sheweth , that your petitioners have received a writ under the great seal of england , reciting , that judgment had been given by your lordships against william viscount stafford , for high treason , and diverse other crimes and offences , upon the impeachment of the commons in parliament assembled , and commanding your petitioners to cause the said viscount staffords head to be severed from his body upon the twenty ninth day of this instant december , notwithstanding any judgment , law , ordinance , or command to the contrary . that your petitioners have not as yet received any command from your lordships for executing the said judgment . may it therefore please your lordships to take the premisses into consideration , and to make such order therein as shall be agreeable to right and justice . and your petitioners shall always pray , &c. upon which petition the lords did declare as followeth : die martis decembris . . upon application from the sheriffs of london and middlesex , making some scruples concerning the execution of the late lord viscount stafford , which were sound by this house to be unnecessary , this house do declare , that the kings writ ought to be obeyed . the said sheriffs likewise made application to the house of commons upon the aforesaid matter , who made the following resolve . die jovis decembris . . resolved , &c. that this house is content that the sheriffs of london and middlesex do execute william late viscount stafford , by severing his head from his body only . wednesday december . . about the hour of ten in the morning , the sheriffs received the prisoner , according to the command of the writs , from the lieutenant of the tower , and brought him upon the scaffold , which was erected on tower-hill . the prisoner took a paper out of his pocket , and ( putting off his hat ) read it as his speech , ( which the very same day , before two of the clock , came out in print as his speech ) and he delivered divers copies signed by himself , to mr. sheriff cornish , and other gentlemen about him . he then desired he might have liberty to pray in his own way ; which being granted , he kneeled down by the block , and taking out of his pocket another paper , he read a latin prayer ; which done , he gave the paper to mr. sheriff bethel ; and then spoke to the people about the scaffold to this effect : god bless you all , gentlemen ; god preserve his majesty , he is a●good a prince as ever govern'd you ; obey him as faithfully as i have done ; and god bless you all , gentlemen . then he stripp'd himself to his wastcoat , and after some ●ew short private discourses with his friends , he laid down his neck on the block , and stretched himself . the executioner being demanded by the sheriffs whether he had any sign ; he answered , no. then the prisoner raised up his head , and said ; he had no sign to give , but the executioner might take his opportunity ; and laid his neck on the block again . after which , in a short time , the executioner did his office , by severing his head from his body , and holding up the head in his hand , carried it about the scafsold , shewing it to the people , and saying , here is the head of a traitor . the body was put into a coffin , and conveyed to the tower. finis . sadducimus debellatus: or, a true narrative of the sorceries and witchcrafts exercis'd by the devil and his instruments upon mrs. christian shaw, daughter of mr. john shaw, of bargarran in the county of renfrew in the west of scotland, from aug. to apr. . containing the journal of her sufferings, as it was exhibited and prov'd by the voluntary confession of some of the witches, and other unexceptionable evidence, before the commissioners appointed by the privy council of scotland to enquire into the same. collected from the records. together with reflexions upon witchcraft in general, and the learned arguments of the lawyers, on both sides, at the trial of seven of those witches who were condemned: and some passages which happened at their execution. cullen, francis grant, lord, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing c a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) sadducimus debellatus: or, a true narrative of the sorceries and witchcrafts exercis'd by the devil and his instruments upon mrs. christian shaw, daughter of mr. john shaw, of bargarran in the county of renfrew in the west of scotland, from aug. to apr. . containing the journal of her sufferings, as it was exhibited and prov'd by the voluntary confession of some of the witches, and other unexceptionable evidence, before the commissioners appointed by the privy council of scotland to enquire into the same. collected from the records. together with reflexions upon witchcraft in general, and the learned arguments of the lawyers, on both sides, at the trial of seven of those witches who were condemned: and some passages which happened at their execution. cullen, francis grant, lord, - . [ ], p. printed for h. newman and a. bell; at the grasshopper in the poultry, and at the crosse keys and bible in cornhill near stocks-market, london : . by lord francis grant cullen. reproduction of the original in the trinity college library, dublin. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng shaw, christian, b. ? witchcraft -- england -- early works to . trials (witchcraft) -- england -- early works to . executions and executioners -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion sadducismus debellatus : or , a true narrative of the sorceries and witchcrafts exercis'd by the devil and his instruments upon mrs. christian shaw , daughter of mr. iohn shaw , of bargarran in the county of renfrew in the west of scotland , from aug. to apr. . containing the journal of her sufferings , as it was exhibited and prov'd by the voluntary confession of some of the witches , and other unexceptionable evidence , before the commissioners appointed by the privy council of scotland to enquire into the same . collected from the records . together with reflexions upon witchcraft in general , and the learned arguments of the lawyers , on both sides , at the trial of seven of those witches , who were condemned : and some passages which happened at their execution . job . . and the lord said unto satan , behold he is in thy hand ; but save his life . math . . . have mercy upon me , o lord , thou son of david ; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil . rom . . . and the god of peace shall bruise satan under your feet shortly . london , printed for h. newman and a. bell ; at the grashopper in the poultry , and at the cross-keys and bible in cornhill near stocks-market . the preface . wise men do justly suspect , and are hardly brought to believe , the accounts of extraordinary stories ; especially about witchcraft : because the frequent impostures which the romanists have obtruded on the world in their miracles and legends ; the many relations of odd things as done by daemons or wizards , which yet , were either false , or meerly the product of natural causes ; the ignorance of several judges and juries , who have condemned silly creatures meerly upon their own ridiculous confessions , or other slender proof ; and the difficulty of conceiving the manner or philosophy , of some operations and appearances , tho undoubtedly true in fact ; are good prejudices against a sudden belief , and may serve as precautions to make an exact inquiry into those matters before we believe them . but they are men of weak souls , and destitute of cleer thoughts ; who deny all , because they have discovered error in some ; or condemn all facts , as false , because they know not how they came to exist : by the same rule of reasoning they may argue that there are no enthusiasts , because the best men have been sometimes mistaken for such , and that there are no criminals , because several have been punished that were not truly such : because many historys are fabulous , that there are none to be trusted : and that all the phaenomena in nature , whose invisible causes they cannot comprehend , are meer delusions . the following narrative , as to the truth of the matter of fact , is the best attested piece of history of this kind , that has occurr'd in many ages : the most of the matters therein represented having gained the assent of private scepticks ; and been prov'd before publick judges . so that its more surprising than witchcraft it self , that any man should seriously deny the beeing of any such thing , and from thence doubt the falling out of such strange providences at a distance , when the certainty of the matter of fact has dispell'd all objections in the places where they happened . many authors have proved , at large , that there are witches and witchcrafts , from reason , scripture , antiquity and the experience of all nations and ages : and they have solved the difficultys which might obstruct the belief of this positive proof , by hypoth●…ses of philosophy : where it 's to be observed , that tho such explications of the natural manner of phenomena are subject to cavil , yet the existence of a thing which has so certain an●… positive evidence cannot be denyed in sound reasoning ; because angels and men not being made for civil converse together in this world , and all communion with devils being forbidden us , the scripture needed to unfold little of their way of acting ; and still the next age , may discover what this could not , as there have been those things explain'd already in this age which were thought unexplicable in the last . therefore such a short hint , as may somewhat illustrate the events in the subsequent discourse , is sufficient in the present case : especially since providence designs those eminent occurrences , rather for our practical instruction , then for a subject of ●…otional speculation . the devil can assume a bodily shape , and speak to man out of it : as he did to eve , to our saviour , and in some heathen oracles ; to make men capable of entring into contract with him , for satan is willing thus to ensure mortalls of being enemies to heaven , to other men , and to their own salvation . the insatiable itch that prying wits have after hidden and curious knowledge , the desire of honour , revenge and of the knowledge of secrets , in some who are great in the world , the desire of riches , and many times likewise of revenge in worldlings and the poorer sort of people , and the eager pursuit after the enjoyment of sensual pleasures by those that are voluptuous , do by the just judgment of god render all those sorts of persons liable to his tentations and easie to be prevail'd upon by his proposals to gratify them in those things which they seek after as their chief good . we see daily , how the lusts of criminals inflamed by satan , divert their horrour not only of eternal and distant , but also of temporal and imminent torments ; and pervert those instincts of nature which might otherwise frighten them from a surrender . but further , he commonly facilitates his conquest over witches , by decoying them gradually to his lure , through the mediation of others that are already embarrr'd with him , till they be sufficiently prepar'd for making an explicite transaction to obey him . that accordingly he has de facto prevailed in making sorcerers and witches , appears from the testimony of the wisest and best of men in all ages and nations . the heathens , by nature and practice , discovering this truth , made laws against malefico's and mathematico's , and some of the last ( tho they assumed the name of an art much encouraged by the legislators ; being known , under the pretext of that , to consult the devil , as to the distinies of men and states ) were punish'd by the senate and people of rome . and even the persians , in some good reigns , did the like . in the old testament we have an account of the magicians of egypt and babylon , who were baffled by moses and daniel ; of balaam and the witch of endor ; and that iesabel , manasseth , and the ten tribes were punished by just judgments for their sorceries and witchcrafts amongst other crimes ; and there also we have an account of the laws made against such , as distinct from those against other criminals . the new testament gives us an account of simon magus who bewitched the people of samaria ; of elimas the sorcerer that was struck blind at paul's rebuke ; of the pythonisse who seems to have been possest by consent , because she was not tormented , but got profit thereby ; and of such as confessed , shewed their deeds , and burnt their books in ephesus ; which are all of 'em undeniable instances of witches and witchcraft . there are also prophesies of false christs with signes and wonders , able to deceive , if posible , the very elect : general councils have made canons against those wretches ; and the experimental knowledge of injured mortalls in all ages , with the publick sentences of courts of judicature thereupon , are delivered down to us by all historians . pet. mamo●…ius in his book de lamiis , gives us an account , that gulielmus linensis , a popish doctor was justly put to death tho he dyed penitent , he having confessed witchcraft , had the written covenant with satan in his pocket , and own'd that his share of the devils service was to preach and perswade people that witches were only silly deluded melancholians , and therefore their confessions were no proof . his success in this work of darkness was such , that the people and judges did slacken their procedure against those miscreants , by which means the witches were vastly multiply'd in a few years , as we are told by the same author , who gives an account of the whole process , from authentick records . it is observ'd , that satan has ofttimes chang'd his scene in the different periods of time , and turned himself into such shapes as he found most convenient for his purpose . ●…o that the manner of his apparition has been different , according to the state of the times . of old he appeared devil like , and was worshiped as such by those that deprecated his mischeif : as some of the barbarous indians do to this day . in the darkness of popery he was transformed into a more innocent sort of spirit called brounie or fairie , ( that pretended to fortell deaths , to reveal the deceaseds will , discover hidden murders , and do other friendly offices , &c. which were subtile means of inducing people to rely on him ) those spirits were then very frequent , he having the impudence thus to appear openly proportiona●…ly ●…o the knowledge of men , over whom his reign was so universal : and as travellers and authors in●…orm u●… he continues to do so in the more northerly regions to this day . but since the ligh●… of the gospel has broke out in our horison , he oftner works externally by magicians and witches , and internally on the lusts of men , being now mostly restrain'd to his own sphere or subjects . yet still he ensnares too many , partly by aping the ordinances of god ; especially as they are corrupted in the romish church , whence so many monks and nuns , as being well 〈◊〉 ●…o his hand , have been easily overcome by him . thus he keeps publick 〈◊〉 in the night as things of extraordinary merit : they formally worship him by many 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ●…e imprints on them a kind of sacrament : he inflicts dread●…ul penances on such 〈◊〉 have not executed the commanded mischiefs : he teaches them odd word ●…nd ●…ignes , upon repeating of which exorcisms , he effects the operations agreed on beforehaud . but though what he does of himself , or by the watch-word of sorcerers or witches , may , by collection , and an artful disposal of matter and form ; appear very surprising : yet he cannot work against nature ; or overturn the course of it ; since that is only in the power of its author who alone can do true miracles , or know immediatly the thoughts of men. it is probable moreover that since the fall satans natural power is below that of good angels ; and it is certain , that he is often baffled in his designs by providence : yet beyond all doubt he retains so much poweras ( being permitted by god ) is sufficient to bring about , by unseen natural means , most of the extraordinary appearances , that the generality of the learned , have ascribed to him : and particularly those in the subsequent narrative : many of which , tho they are beyond the efficiency of disease , deceit , or any visible cause ; yet may be the effects of some such unperceived means , as follow . there is no difficulty in satan's transmiting in a short time an account of things which are past ; since it s known he goes to and fro in the earth : yea , he may have certainly foretold some future events , as that of alexander's success against persia , &c. seeing he understands and may steal , the great revolutions of the world out of the prophets ; wherein they are so graphically described : or he may discover his own resolutions whenever he is commissioned or permitted to execute a judgment ; as in the case of those who , for seeking their horoscops , are given over to him by god ; and thus he gave saul an exact account of his own end by the philistines . but without some such aids satan can only guess like a phisician by the symptoms , or a politician by the crisis of states : which is the cause that most of his oracles are ambiguous . his transporting of witches is elsewhere explained . he can raise hurricanes ( as appears in iob ) which are known to carry very ponderous bodies over great tracts of sea and land. it s easy for him to condense a part of the vehicle ; which may protect the breathing and yet cut the air , like the fence of dyvers , &c. the beak of a sloop : in which also he affects the magnifying of his own natural power , and to make his followers believe that it is no less then that of the good angels , who transported ezekiel and elijah through the air. his covering of the witches from sight , at some times , is also cleared , from the difficulties which seem to attend it , in another place of this book : where it appears very possible that his skill in opticks , reflection and refraction of light &c. to which his power and agility as a spirit subministrats materials ; may effect all that can be prov'd to be matter of fact in that case . glanvil , more , and others lay down another hypothesis in both , viz. that the soul is separable from the body in some cases , without death : when by god's permission , satan with the parties consent , gets power over both soul and body ; whereby he may carry away the one from the helm of the other , and bring it back again into its seat ; provided the vital spirits which make the body a fit receptacle , be well preserved by ointments , that constrict the pores , till the return of its guest : but death ensues from a separation when the organs of the body are rendred altogether unapt to obey the soul's commands in its functions . if such an opinion could be true , satan might imploy this captivated spirit to actuat any shape he thinks fit . but there needs not so much metaphysicks to unridle the appearances of witches in the shape of beasts , and the like : since their real persons may be covered with a vehicle ; which by disposal of the rays comming from it , may deceive the eyes by the same impressions that come from the true sight of such things . his power of representing another thing in lieu of that which is truly present ; is so certain that it 's found he may make up the image or resemblance of persons who are not present at all : for it is not doubted but spiritual devils may sometimes be permitted to represent by phantoms the most innocent and praise-worthy men , aswell as incarnate devils , are suffered to tr●…duce them . he that accuseth the brethren and imitats an angel of light , may likeways personate the children of ligh●… by his delusions : yet the antecedents , concomitants , and consequents , of such providences , do generally discover the falshood ; so as the just man , for the 〈◊〉 part shall not perish in his righteousness , and god , in his ordinary providence , will not laugh at the trial of the innocent ; tho sometimes it falls out , that the sons of belial may swear away the life of an innocent naboth . there are several other things of less difficult explication . particularly , the devil , or witches might have been heard in converse by the maid and not by others ; the sa●…e 〈◊〉 as a sound directed through a speaking trumpet reaches the ears to which it is aimed without dispersing it self towards those that are not in a streight line betwixt ' em . the confederate devil may , upon the witches desire , infuse poisonous humors , extracted from herbs , of the same invisible operation with the steem of mad-dogs , or the pestilence ; which being joyned to the rapid course of the patient 's own spirits , humors , and blood , and satan , by ingyring himself into them , may , through the natural means of pulsion , set 'em in such a career as may very well produce those extraordinary motions which are mentioned in the following account . the devils delight much in the torture , or destruction , of young children , out of envy to christ , who is tender of such little ones ; and because the crime is the greater the less the patient has offended , or can resist . they use , or make others to repeat , scripture-words for gaining credit , or alleviating the terror , or to disgrace the word , by such a mock-use ; as they did in the time of our saviour , and therefore their testimony was by him rejected . it 's observable from many passages ; that he hastens , sometimes , and effects the discovery of witches by his malice against their present temporal enjoyments , the uncertainty of their continuance in his service , and unsatiable desire for their full ruine : yet some of them , who are most maliciously bent , he thinks fit to keep here , as useful instruments ; and providence permits others to live , that by a wilful filling up the measure of their wickedness , under the means of the gospel , they may be rendered finally inexcusable . as for those , whom , in secret judgment , the devil is permitted to torment ; but , in mercy , not to overcome : he may be influenced thereunto by a design of perverting them with terror , whereof he is at last disappointed : and it is likewise certain , that the defacing of god's image in man , especially in despite of iesus christ , who honoured that nature by assuming it , is his chief delight : or he may be constrained to make such stupendious appearances against his will ( because he 's most successful when he is least known ) for a visible testimony superadded to the greater gospel proofs , in gross times , that there are spirits , and a devil to torment sinners , as it 's observable that this was denied by mr. aikenhead , yet he died in full conviction of it ) by the passages contain'd in the ensuing narrative : or providence may suffer things to fall out , that , though they be intended by the devil for an instance of malice ; they may , by their notoriety , be a means of promoting the discovery , and bringing to justice those miscreants , whom he made use of as his instruments ; and who , perhaps , may have liv'd long in rebellion against heaven , and destroying mankind by services of the same nature , as fell out in the case now in hand . in the last place , god may permit such things for the magnifying of his own grace , which was so conspicuous in enabling this young girl to resist the fierce and cunning assaults of the wicked one ; and there is no doubt but the devil himself hath the greatest malice against those countries or persons , over whom he perceives his reign to be nearest at an end . there are many other profitable instructions that may be learnt from this wonderful providence , for such dispensations have their own language , and the man of wisdom shall see god's name . the use of charmes for men or beasts , certain characters , words , verses , and spells : the observation of times and seasons as lucky , or unlucky : the belief of having success by care rying about one some herbs , plants , or branches of trees : and many the like superst●…tions ; which can have no natural causality on the effects desired , are the very rudiments of witchcraft , and an implicite application to the devil for vertues which god has deny'd to those things : whence they are to be abhorred as sinful in themselves , and introductory to an explicit engagement with the devil . so , gross ignorance , prophane loosness , stupid forgetfulness of god , and neglect of his worship in closets and families ; malice , envy , revenge , discontent , oppressive fear of want , and distrustful anxiety of spirit : and lastly , a libidinous temper , curses , imprecations , and sinful curiosity , are to be avoided , as paving the way to the same mischief . let none enveigh against a profession of religion , because some , under that specious covert , have been found in league with the devil . it 's because of the glorious lustre and excellency of our holy faith that these miscreants paint themselves with it ; that they may be the less suspected , and the more able subtilly to gain others , and do their masters work : it was no stain on the apostles that one of their number had a devil , was a traitor and cheat : nor that satan transformed himself into an angel of light , on design that the good ways of the lord may be evil spoken of . neither let us be under a slavish fear and terror of that hellish tribe , in truckling to their humor , least they should do harm , which savours of worshiping and paying homage to the devil ; whereas we ought only to make the lord of hosts our fear and our dread . there is no just ground to reflect on particular persons or families , upon account of such troubles . for no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that 's before them : all things happen alike to all : we must not suppose , that these were sinners above all the galileans , or above all that dwelt in ierusalem : the infinite wise god may thus try our faith , patience , and christian fortitude . iob and our saviour were assaulted ; and seven devils cast out of mary magdalen , a chosen vessel . a daughter of abraham was bound by satan for eighteen years ; and his messenger was sent to buffet the great apostle of the gentiles . the woman of canaan , math. . . and the godly man , mark . . had their nearest relations vext in this manner : and blessed be the lord that he has le●…t such instances on record for prevention of s●…umbling ; though it must be confessed , that the same charity which judges well of all things , cannot but alter its remark when its proof is sufficiently clear from the way in which the person affected did formerly walk , since presumptions do always yield to truth , and lawyers have a maxim , that in re clara non est locus conjecturis . the deaf adder that stops her ears at the charming voice of a sun-shine gospel , will , one way or other , fall into the charms of satan , or his instruments : when men will have none of christ , he gives them up to their own lusts , and the power of their spiritual adversary ; as , when israel had forsaken their god ▪ he gave them up to worship the host of heaven . what holy caution , and pious use of our baptismal covenant , ought we to make , as the best amulets against being either enticed by the attempts of his instruments . but how much ought we to be humbled ? and how great diligence ought to be used in the discovery of so many hidden achans that are in the camp of israel ? yet poverty , age , the features , yea , ill fame , or the like slender grounds , which could not be worthy of being represented to a magistrate ; ought not to move us to suspition , much less to defame : since charity hopes all things , and we ought to do to others , as we would be done by . these things we doubt not will meet with a very different reception , especially in this unhappy age and place of the world , where britain may be termed the unfortunate island ; africk never having been more fertile in the production of monsters : since it s observ'd , that through all the successions of men , there was never before any society , or collective body of atheists till these dreggs of time ; though there might have been here and there some mishapen births . but wisdom is justify'd of her children , and it 's the season for sampson to awake when dalilah gives the alarum , that the philistines are upon him . what peace , so long as the whoredomes of iezebel and her witchcrafts are so many . but good things are hoped of our magistrates , who have already so happily begun . the apostle said of iob's tryals , ye have heard of the patience of iob , and have seen the end of the lord. so , in this narrative , you have a deplorable account of this maids dreadful fits , and of the powers of darkness that combind together , not only for the ruining of her body ; but also for murdering her soul. in the mean time the hearts of many were bleeding for her , and much application was made to god in her behalf : divers solemn facts were observed , both in her fathers family , in the parish , and throughout the bounds of the presbitry , and else-were ; her case was expresly minded in publick addresses to the throne of grace , till at length there was a general fast religiously kept in most parts of the synod , that god might give an effectual check to satan's rage and dominion in the countrey . boasting of prayers is to be abhorred ; yet it is our duty , with all gratitude , to acknowledge god to be the hearer of prayer , and to proclaim to the world the excellency of them upon this very occasion : for he hath not turned away his ear from us ; it being the comfortable result of this history , that the girl hath been perfectly well for many months : so that we may well say , t●…at she is a brand plucked out of the fire ; and the instruments wherewith the witches thought to have destroyed her , have fallen upon some of their own heads . the devil could not enter the herd of swine , nor touch one hair of iob's head , without permission from him whose kingdom ruleth over all : whence it appears , that tho our enemies be indefatigable and invisible , yet we are under the conduct of a watchman who neither slumbers nor sleeps ; to whom darkness and light are both alike ; and greater is he that is in us , than he taht is in the world : so that unless we wilfully ●…orfeit our priviledge , 〈◊〉 is no fear of our being able to resist the wicked one ; since neither angels , principalities , nor powers , shall be able to separate us from the love which is in christ jesus our lord : and though no argument can be drawn from any merit in us , yet we shall carry the day against all the militia of hell , under the captain of our salvation . it will not be a natural sturdiness of temper , nor a formal mentioning of the name of god or christ , that can shelter us from those devourers , as appears by the seven sons of s●…eva , acts . they wrestle most successfully against principallities and powers , who fight upon their knees , by prayer ; this is the true way of resisting the devil , so as to make him flee from us . if satan's possession of bodies be so great a plague , how much worse is it to have him reign master of our souls ? wherefore let us watch and pray against every sin , the least of which is more pleasing to him , and worse to us then to be tormented bodily . if satan , as a spirit , can insinuate himself into our humours , it is no wonder , if , by having such an advantage of our temper , he influence the flegmatick person to sloth , the cholerick to anger , the sanguine to lust and sinful pleasure , the melancholick to despair , &c. so that they that think they stand , have need to take heed least they fall : and to pray , that the watchman of israel may make an hedge about them and their house , and about all that they have on every side . let this not only rouze our diligence , and stir up our gratitude , for not being afflicted in the same manner ; but let it also raise up our admiration and love of iesus christ , who hath freed our souls and bodies from the power and slavery of satan : and finding our selves too weak to resist those deluding pleasures which occasion our being deserted by god , and given up to this fearful thraldom ; let us run to the rock of ages for protection and support , our sufficiency being only in god. seeing devils take so much pains to contract for the souls of witches ; the saducee's the judicially blinded in their reason , are hereby rendred inexcusable by very sense ; ill books , which corrupt and ensnare curious fancies , who are seldom endow'd with accurate judgments , ought to be restrain'd : as also such ridiculous pamphlets , as no doubt by the instigation of satan , have lately been sent abroad , designedly to frustrat any good use which might be made of such extraordinary providences as these contained in the ensueing narrative . the authors of those pamphlets having either forged other subjects or disguised this . the publication of this narrative has been delayed so long , partly , that there might be the more narrow scrutiny made into the matters of fact ; and partly , by some accidents which did retard it . the reader is not to expect any accuracy of stile ; because the designed brevity occasion'd the wraping up of much matter in few words , naked and exact truth in every circumstance being our chief aim . the narrative . about the end of august one thousand six hundred ninety six , christian shaw , daughter to iohn shaw of bargarran gent. in the parish of erskine and county of renfrew ; a smart lively and well inclin'd girl , of about eleven years of age , perceiving one of the maids of the house , named catharine campbel , to steal some milk , she told her mother of it ; whereupon the said maid ( being a young woman of a proud and revengeful temper , and much addicted to cursing , swearing and purloining ) did , in a mighty rage , imprecate the curse of god three times upon the child ; and at the same time did thrice utter these horrid words , the devil harle ( that is drag ) your soul thro' hell. this past on munday , august . in presence of several witnesses , who afterwards gave evidence of it . upon the friday following , being august . about sun-rising , one agnes naismith , an old ignorant woman , of a malicious disposition , addicted to threatnings , ( which sometimes were observed to be followed with fatal events ) came to bargarran's house ; where finding the said christian shaw in the court with her younger sister , she ask'd how the lady and young child did , and how old the young sucking child was ? to which christian replied , what do i know ? then agnes ask'd , how she her self did , and how old she was ? to which she answered , that she was well , and in the eleventh year of her age. on the saturday-night after , being august the . the said christian shaw went to bed in good health ; but assoon as she fell asleep , began to struggle and cry , help , help : and then suddenly got up , and did fly over the top of a bed where she lay , to the great astonishment of her parents and others in the room , with such violence , that probably her brains had been dasht out , if a woman , providentially standing by , had not broke the force of the childs motion ; she was afterwards laid in another bed , and remained stiff and insensible as if she had been dead , for the space of half an hour ; and for forty eight hours after could not sleep , crying out of violent pains thorow her whole body , and no sooner began to sleep or turn drowsie but seemed greatly affrighted , crying still help , help . after this a pain fixt in her left side , and her body was often so bent and stiff , that she stood like a bow on her feet and neck at once , and continued without power of speech , except in some very short intervals , for eight days ; during which time , she had scarce half an hours intermission together , the fits taking her suddenly , and coming on and going off by a swoon , or short deliquium , but she appeared perfectly well and sensible betwixt whiles . about the middle of september her fits returned , in a manner differing from the former , wherein she seemed to fight and struggle with something that was invisible to the spectators ; and her actions appear'd as if she had been defending her self from some who were assaulting , or attempting to hurt her , and this with such force , that four strong men were scarcely able to hold her ; and when any of the people present touch't any part of her body , she cry'd out with such vehemence , as if they had been killing her , but could not speak . when she was seized with those fits , her parents sent to pasley , for iohn whyte an apothecary , their near relation , and afterwards for dr. iohnston ; who order'd her to be let blood , and apply'd several things to her , without any discernable effect : all the while of these later fits she was afflicted with extraordinary risings and fallings in her belly , like the motion of a pair of bellows ; and with such strange movings of her body , as made the bed she lay on to shake . some days after she was able to speak during her fits , and cried , that katharine campbel and agnes nasmith were cutting her side , and other parts of her body ; which were at that time violently tormented : and when the fit was over she still asserted , that she had seen those persons doing the things which she complained of in her fit ; ( it being observable , that in the intervals , she was still as well and sensible as ever ) and could not believe but that other persons present saw them as well as she : in this condition she continued with no considerable variation , either as to the fits or intervals , for the space of a month. after which she was carried to glasgow , where doctor brisbane , an able physician , order'd mr. henry marshall , apothecary , to prepare medicines for her ; so that having stayed in glasgow about ten days , she was brought home to her father , and had near a fortnights intermission . but then her fits returned , with this difference , that she knew when they were coming , by a pain in her left-side : and in these fits her throat was prodigiously drawn down toward her breast , and her tongue back into her throat ; her whole body becoming stiff , and extended as a dead corpse , without sense or motion : and sometimes her tongue was drawn out of her mouth over her chin , to a wonderful length , her teeth closing so fast upon it , that those about her were forced to thrust something betwixt , for saving her tongue . and it was often observed , that her tongue was thus tortured when she attempted to pray . in this condition she was for some time , with sensible intervals , wherein she had perfect health , and could give a full account of what she was heard to utter while in her fits. her parents resolved to carry her again to glasgow , for the greater conveniency of being under the doctors inspection and care , and for the further discovering the nature of her distemper , and making use of the most probable natural remedies . but being on her way thither , in her grand-mothers house at northbar , she thrust , or spit out of her mouth parcels of hair , some curled , some plaited , some knotted , of different colours , and in large quantities : and thus she continued to do , with several fainting fits every quarter of an hour , both in her passage to glasgow , nov. . and after she arrived there , for the space of three dayes ; then from munday to thursday following , she put out of her mouth coal-finders about the bigness of chesnuts , some of 'em so hot , that they could scarely be handled , as dr. birsbane witnesses in his atttestation . then for the space of two days , in her swooning-sits , there came out of her mouth great numbers of straws , by one at a time , folded up , but when out return'd to their natural shape ; and it was observable , that in one of them there was a pin : after this there issued out of her mouth bones of various sorts and sizes , and then some small sticks of candle-firr ( a sort of firr in this countrey that burns like a candle ) one of 'em about three or four inches long ; which , when any attempted to pull out , they found them either held by her teeth , fix'd upon them , or forcibly drawn back into her throat ; particularly archibald bannatine of kellie , junior ; observing a bone in her mouth , like that of a duck's leg , and essaying to pull it out , he declared he found something drawing it back into her throat ; so that it required a deal of strength to pull it out . it is to be observ'd , that hitherto she knew not how these things were brought into her mouth , and when they were pulled out , she immediately recover'd of her fit for that time . after this there came out of her mouth some quantity of hay , intermix'd with dung , as if it bad been taken out of a dunghil ; which stunck so , that the damsel could not endure the tast and smell of it , but was forc'd to wash her mouth with water . then for a days space she put out of her mouth a great number of feathers of wild-fowl ; after that a stone , which , in the judgment of beholders , had been passed by some person in a fit of the stone ; with some small white stones , and a whole nut-gall ( with which they use to dye cloath and make ink ) also lumps of candle grease , and egg-shells : of all which there were many witnesses . when the sticks above-mention'd came out of her mouth , she foretold that she was to be grievously tormented with sore fits that night , which accordingly fell out : for a little after , she fell into a swoon , wherein she had no use of her senses : and though the spectators called to her aloud , and moved her body , and mr. bannatin above-named , gave her a very sore pinch in the arm , she was not sensible of it . after she recover'd from the swoon , but continuing in her fit , she fell a reasoning with katharine campbel after this manner , thou sit'st there with a stick in thy hand to put in my mouth ; but thorow god's strength thou shalt not get leave : thou art permitted to torment me ; but i trust in god , thou shalt never 〈◊〉 my life , tho it 's my life thou design'st . and callin●… 〈◊〉 ●…or a bible and candle , said , come near me kate , and i 'll let thee see where a godly man was given up to satan to be tormented : but god kept his life in his own hand : and so i trust in god , thou shalt never get my life , and all that thou shalt be permitted to do unto me , i hope thorow god's mercy , shall turn to my advantage . this man was rob'd of all , and tormented in body , and had nothing left him but an ill wife . come near me kate , and i 'll read it to thee . and reading that passage of job , when she came to the place where his wife said to him curse god and dy , the damsel considering these words alittle , said ; o! what a wife was this , that bid her husband curse god and dy ? she who should have been a comfort to him in his trouble , turned a cross to him ? then after reading of the chapter to the end , she lookt towards the foot of the bed and said . now kate , what think'st thou of that ? thou seest , for all the power the devil got over iob he gain'd no ground on him ; and i hope he shall gain as little on me . thy master the devil deceives thee , he is a bad master whom thou serv'st , and thou shalt find it to thy sorrow , except thou repentest ; there is no repentance to be had after death : i 'll let thee see kate , there is no repentance in hell , and turning over the book citeing luke , chap. . near the latter end , and reading the same said , kate thou seest , there is no repentance in hell , for this rich man besought abraham to testify to his five brethren , that they come not to the place of torment , where he was ; but repent and turn to the lord , for there is no getting out if once they come there ; now kate , thou hear'st this , what think'st thou of it ? i 'll let thee hear another place , which should pierce thy very heart , and turning over the book said . she would read about adam and eve , thou know'st kate , the serpent ( the devil thy master ) thought to have ruined mankind at the beginning , his malice was so great at that blessed state wherein they were , seeing himself cast down from all hopes of mercy , he used all means possible to subvert their happiness , by suggesting to them fair promises , and a prospect of advantage in causing them to eat of that forbidden fruit ; and were made subject to god's curse for ever : but god did not suffer them to remain in this condition , but of his infinit mercy shewed to them a better way whereby they might have life eternal by revealing to them that blessed promise , the seed of the woman shall bruise the head of the serpent . now kate what think'st thou of that promise ? but observe this , thou 'lt get no advantage by it , it 's not made to thee , who hast renounced god's service , and listed thy self under the devil ; thou art his slave , thou deny'st this ; but i know thou art a hypocrite ; for i remember , when thou wast in my mothers house , thou boughtest a catechism upon a pretence to learn to read , to cloak thy sin : wilt thou hear me ? know'st thou the reward of the hypocrit ? i 'll let thee hear it ; i remember mr. william gillies was lecturing the other day upon the of mathew , where many a wo is pronounced against the hypocrit , eight dreadful wo's here kate , and some of them belongs to thee : but i 'll tell thee more , know'st thou the reward of the hypocrit they shall be cast into the lake that burns for ever , that 's their portion ; do'st thou hear this now ? thou turn'st thy back to me , when i am telling thee truth ; if i were reading a story-book , or telling a tale to thee , thou would'st hear that . remember it will be thy portion too , if thou do not repent , and confess , and seek mercy . again turning over the book , she read about pilat , saying ; pilat he made a shew of cleansing himself of christ's blood , he wash'd his hands and declar'd himself innocent ; but for all his washing he had a foul heart , he would not loose his office for the saving of christ's life : he knew well enough that christ was an innocent person ; but he perferred his honour before christ ; therefore to please the iews , and to quench the strugling in his conscience , he washt his hands , and then delivered christ to be crucified by them . thus she continued for more then two houns space ; reasoning at this rate , and exhorting her to repent , quoting many places of scripture , in the revelations and evangelists . and when any one offered to take her bible from her , she uttered dreadful schreeks and out-crys , saying , she would never part with her bible as long as she liv'd , she would keep it in spight of all the devils . before we pass from this it will be needful to give the reader notice of some few things . . that while she call'd for her bible and a candle , she neither heard nor saw any of those persons who were then actually and discernably present in the room with her , and that katharine campbel to whom she directed her speech was not discernably present to any body but her self . and the pinch mr. bannatine gave her in her insensible fit , she complain'd of afterward , but knew not how she came by it , nor did she blame any of her tormentors for it . . that these words set down as spoke by her , were the very same both for words and order as nearly as they could be gathered and remembred by the hearers , without any addition of their own . . that altho she was a girl of a pregnant spirit above her age , knew much of the scriptures , and had a pretty good understanding , above what might be expected of one of her years , of the fundamental principles of religion ; yet we doubt not but in so strong a combat , the lord did by his good spirit graciously afford her a more then ordinary measure of assistance . sometime after the trash above-mentioned issued out of her mouth she fell into extream violent fits , with lamentable out-crys , four persons being hardly able to hinder her from climbing up the walls of the chamber , or from doing her self hurt , in the mean time she had no power to speak , her back and the rest of her body was grievously pained , and in this condition she continued four or five days with the usual intervals : during which she declared , that four men , alexander and iames anderson , and other two ( of whom she gave particular and exact marks , but knew not their names ) were tormenting her . it was observ'd , that many of those she named were known to be persons of ill fame , as were these two persons last mention'd : it is also remarkable , that for some time she knew not the name of the said alexander anderson , till one day that he came a begging to the door of the house , where she was , then she immediatly cryed out , that was he whom she had seen among the crew . after this she fell into other fits , wherein she saw the persons before-named , with some others , and heard and saw several things that past among them . particularly , she sometimes foretold when she was to have the sits , and how often she should have them , ( which fell out accordingly . ) about the eighth of december , being brought home again from glasgow , and having had six or seven days respite from her fits , she fell into a frightful and terrible relapse : the occasion whereof she declar'd to be , her seeing the devil in prodigious and horrid shapes , threatning to devour her ; she would fall down dead , and became stiff , with all the parts of her body stretcht out , like a corpse , without sense or motion ; those fits came suddenly , without her knowledge , and she did as suddenly recover and grow perfectly well ; and they usually came on her when she offer'd to pray : sometimes she knew when the other fits were a coming , how long they would continue , and when they would return : in which fits her eyes alter'd strangely , and turned in her head , to the admiration of the spectators , with a continual pain about her heart ; sometimes her joynts were contracted together , and her forehead drawn forcibly about toward her shoulders ; these fits she took by falling into a swoon , and would instantly recover in the same manner . during this time her fits alter'd again , as to their times of coming , and continuance , in which she sometimes endeavour'd to bite her own fingers , or any thing else that came in her way ; she did the like when she saw the persons before-mentioned , or any one of them about her , she would point out where they were to the people with her , but they could not see them ; and sometimes she declared , that she had hold of them by their cloaths . particularly , december . being in a sore fit , she cry'd out of several persons that were tormenting her ; and being in the bed , grasped with her hands towards the foot of it , and cry'd out , that she had catched hold of the sleeves of one i. p's . jerkin ( or jacket ) which was , as she said , ragged at the elbows : and , at that very time , the damsels mother and aunt heard the sound of the rending or tearing of a cloth , but saw nothing , only they found in each of the girles hands a bit of red cloth , which lookt as if it had been torn off of a garment ; of which kind of cloth there was none in the room , nor in any part of the house : at the same time she told them , there was such an one among the crew going to pinch her tongue , which was thereupon instantly pull'd back into her throat , and she lay dumb for a considerable space . sometimes after her recovery from her fits , she told that she heard several things spoken by her tormentors , but durst not make them known , because they threatned to torment her more if she did ; and accordingly when her mother or others prevailed with her to tell them any thing , she was instantly tormented . she added that her tormentors appear'd to her usually with lights and strange sorts of candles , which were frightful to look on . thus she continued till the first of ianuary , . in such fits as before-mention'd with some alterations , and had likewise other swooning fits , wherein she continued for two or three hours together , sometimes more , sometimes less , with very short intervals , in which fits she did not complain much of pain ; but had a great palpitation in her breast , and sometimes strange and unaccountable motions in other parts of her body , which continued in a greater or lesser degree during the whole time of the fit , wherein she was somewhat light-headed , and not so solid in her mind as at other times ; tho in the intervals of these , as of all other fits she was composed enough , and these fits , as all the rest , came suddenly on and went as suddenly off by a swoon . before we proceed any further it is fit to observe , . that agnes naismith before-mentioned , being brought by the parents a second time to see the girl , did ( without being desired ) pray that the lord god of heaven and earth might send the damsel her health and discover the truth : after which , the child declared that tho the said agnes had formerly been very troublesome to her ; yet , from that time forward she did no more appear to her , as her tormentor ; but as she thought defended her from the fury of the rest . . that katharine campbel , before-mentioned , could by no means be prevailed with to pray for the damsel , but on the contrary cursed them and all the family of bargarren , and in particular the damsel and all that belonged to her , with this grievous imprecation ; the devil let her never grow better , nor any concern'd in her be in a better condition then she was in , for what they had done to her . which words she spoke before diverse credible witnesses . . that bargarren having prevailed with the under sheriff to imprison the said katharine campbel , she never after appear'd to the damsel , ( tho formerly she was one of her most violent tormentors ) except once or twice , when it was found upon enquiry , that she was not in the prison , but either in the jaylors house , or when she had liberty to go to church . . that at the time when the damsel voided at her mouth the hair and other trash as above related , katharine campbel being taken into custody , there was found in her pocket a ball of hair of several colours , which being thrown into the fire the child from that time forward vomited no more hair , she declared that she heard her tormentors say that katharine campbel made the ball , of the hair cut off of christians head when her trouble began . upon the first day of ianuary about ten a clock at night , she swoon'd and fell into fits differing from the former , in that , after her swooning was over she lay still as if she had been dead , yet at the same time she was heard talking mournfully with a low voice , and repeating several storys in meeter , which they thought to be an account of the rise and progress of her own trouble ; and thus she continued ( naming some of the forementioned persons at times ) till her parents and others offered to rouze her , by touching and moving her body , whereupon she uttered horrid shreeks , and cry'd as if she had been pierced thorow with swords , and assaulted for her life . after this she fell a singing , leaping and dancing for a long time , laughing with a loud voice , in an unusual manner , tearing down the hangings of the bed , and pulling off her head-cloaths ; in which extravagances she was acted with such force and strength that her father and the minister tho joyning their whole strength , could not hinder her from dancing and leaping . but after prayer , the minister finding her composed , enquired if she remembered what she had done in the time of the fit ; to which she reply'd , that she distinctly remembered her miscariages , and in particular her singing and dancing , adding , that the witches enclosed her in a ring ( or circle ) and dancing and singing about her , was the occasion of her dancing , which she then gladly performed with the rest . for some days after she had fits much after the same manner , with some small variation : in one of 'em she tore off her head-cloaths , and would have stript her self of all her cloaths if she had been permitted . about the eleventh of ianuary , she fell into fits different from the former , in which she was carried away from her parents and others that were about her , with a sudden flight , and the first time ( to their great amazement ) thorow the chamber and hall down a long winding stair towards the tower-gate , with such a swift and unaccountable motion , that it was not in the power of any to prevent her , her feet did not touch the ground , so far as any of the beholders could discern ; and as she went she was heard to laugh in an unusual manner : but by divine providence the gate being shut , her motion was stopt till such time as some of the family could overtake her , who endeavouring to carry her back , she immediately fell down and became stiff like a dead corps , and being brought back to her chamber , lay so for a considerable space : upon her recovery she declar'd , that there were about nine or ten persons who carried her away as if she had been in a swing , wherein she then took pleasure , her feet not at all touching the ground , to her apprehension . the night following she was suddenly carried away , as before , from her parents and others thro the chamber and hall , and sixteen large steps of a winding stair towards the top of the house , where she met with apparitions of strange and unaccountable things , but was carried down again 〈◊〉 she thought in a swing by six women and four men 〈◊〉 the the gate , where she was found , and thence 〈◊〉 up as formerly with all the parts of her body distended and stiff like one dead ; she lay so for some time , and when recover'd , declared , that both then and before , she had endeavoured to open the gate , and that those she saw about her helped her , with a design to get her to the court to drown her in the well , which she heard them say they intended to do , and that then the world would believe she had destroyed her self . it is observable that in one of these fits afterwards , she was stopt at the gate , tho it was not bolted nor lock'd , yet the providence of god order'd it so that neither she nor her tormentors could open it so that they left her there as usual . before we proceed further , it is fit to take notice that as soon as the damsels affliction was observ'd to be extraordinary and preternatural there was ( besides former private prayers and fasts by the family ) at the desire of the parents and minister of the parish , and by the presbytries special order , a minister or two appointed to meet one day every week to joyn with the family , the minister of the parish and other good christians of the neighbourhood , in fasting and praying . and on the th . of ianuary it being the turn of mr. patrick simpson a neighbouring minister to be there ; when he came he found the minister of the parish , and the other who was to joyn with him absent upon necessary occasions , yet resolved to carry on the work with the assistance of three elders and some other good people that were present . when he first saw the damsel he found her under some lesser fits which came and went off quickly : she was quiet and sober during prayer , but in time of singing the psalm she fell into a sore fit , of greater continuance , first laughing , then making a sound like singing , after that pulling her head-cloathes over her face , and lastly turning so outragious in her motions that her father could scarce hold her till the fit abated : after her recovery she was quiet and composed all the time of prayer , and while the minister lectur'd on mark . from . verse to the . was very attentive , carefully looking for the scriptures quoted , and so continued till the religious exercise was ended , and sometime after , when she acquainted the company that she had something to tell which she heard some among her tormenters say ; but durst not reveal it ; upon which the minister and her mother urg'd her to be free and not to obey the devil , but before she got a sentence fully pronunced in her mothers ear , she fell into a violent fit , so as her mother and others could scarcely hold her till the violence thereof began to abate , and then her mother told the company that she was speaking of a meeting and a feast her tormentors had spoken of in the orchard of bargarran , but was able to say no more . after her recovery , her mother desir'd her to tell the rest of it , and she began again to wisper in her ear , but could not get one word uttered till she was seiz'd again with a fit , as violent as the former , whereupon the minister desired them to forbear troubling her any further . but it was observed afterwards that elizabeth anderson , iames lindsay and thomas lindsay , three of those that tormented her confessed that they and others had a meeting in the orchard at that time , tho neither of 'em knew what the girl had said , or what the others had confessed concerning it . a little after this , she was again suddenly carried from them down a stair , which goes off from a corner of the chamber to a celler just below it , whether her brother and sister were providentially gone a little before , to bring some drink with a lighted candle , which she soon put out : but they crying and holding her by the head-cloaths , quickly discovered to the rest where she was . upon which mr. alexander king minister of bonnil made hast down stairs where her brother and sister had lost their hold of her ; but mr. king having caught hold of her again , keept her in his arms till another candle was brought , and endeavoring to bring her up stairs , declared that he found something forcibly drawing her downwards , but still keeping his hold , she fell as one dead upon the stairs , and being carried up and laid in bed , she lay ▪ so for a considerable space . when recovered from her fit , she declar'd that the occasion of her going down stairs with such force , was , that the crew had suggested to her while she was light-headed , that the devil was in the meal chist in the celler , and that if she would go down and put out the candle , she might force him out of it . when some fits of this kind were ready to seize her , she now and then gave notice thereof to those that were present and earnestly desired their help to prevent her motion , which usually proved to be of good effect , wherein the divine mercy toward her is much to be observed . when she was in these flying fits , she used to utter horrid shreeks and crys not like those of rational creatures : and there were heard for three nights together , when the damsel was asleep in bed , shreeks and crys of the same kind in the court , when none of the family was without doors , to the great afrightment of those that heard them , because they exactly resembled the crys and shreeks the girl used to utter in her fits ; and in one of her intervals hearing the family talking of those crys and shreeks , and alledging they had been uttered by some wild beast or other , she told them they were mistaken , for it was margaret and two others of the name of margaret call'd by the crew their maggi's , that uttered those shreeks , the devil having promised to them at that time to carry her out of the house that they might drown her in the well , where there were eighteen more waiting for her . after this she fell into freting and angry fits , in which she was cross to all those about her , nothing they did or said proving to her satisfaction ; but when restored to a right composure of mind , she declar'd that her tormentors did still suggest to her and advise her to go to such and such remote places of the house alone , and bring with her a string or cravat or some such thing , promising her almonds and other sweet-meats , and bid her bring her apron with her to hold them in , and accordingly when she was seiz'd again with fits of this nature she did resolutly endeavour to repair to those places with a string , cravat and apron , and would suffer none to be in her company , which put her parents and others under a necessity of detaining her by force , and being thus prevented she would utter hideous shreeks and crys . thursday ianuary th . at night a young girl appear'd to her with a scabbed face amongst the rest of her tormentors , telling her she was to come to the house to morrow about ten a clock , and forbidding her to reveal it . the next day in the afternoon the damsel earnestly enquired at her mother and the rest of the family what beggars had come to the gate that day , and of what countenance and visage they were ? but not knowing her design in such a question , they gave no heed to it ; yet she still insisting on it , and being in company with her mother and another gentlewoman , about four a clock at night she said to them , she thought she might tell them somewhat ( the time being now past ) that she was forbidden to reveal ; but as she begun to tell it , she presently fell a crying that she was tormented and pricked thorow her whole body , however recovering from her fit , she went on and told 'em that a scabbed-fac'd lass appear'd to her yester-night and was to be at the gate this day at ten a clock . whereupon the servants being enquired at what sort of beggers had been there that day , they declar'd that among others , there had been a begger woman at the door and a young lass with her who had scabs on her face , and receiv'd their alms. ianuary , th and th , when recovered of her swooning fits , she voided at her mouth a great number of pins , which she declared i — p. — and a gentlewoman , who had been always one of her most violent tormentors , had forc'd into her mouth . ianuary , her fits altered again , after this manner , she would fall into them with heavy sighs and groans and hideous out-crys , telling those about her that cats , ravens , owles and horses were destroying and pressing her down in the bed : and at the same time her mother and another gentlewoman being in the room with her , did declare that immediatly after they had taken the girl out of her bed in this condition , they did see something moving under the bed-cloaths as big as a cat. the same morning in the interval of her fits , she said , she heard her tormentors whisper amongst themselves , and suggest to one another , ( naming i — p. — the andersons and others ) that the devil had promised and engaged to them , to carry her out at the hall window , to the end they might drown her in the well which was in the court ; and then they said the world would believe she had destroyed her self ; and the same day and several days after , when seiz'd with her grievous fits , she did attempt with such force to get out at that window , that the spectators could scarcely with their whole strength prevent her . about this time , nothing in the world would so discompose her as religious exercises , if there were any discourses of god or christ , or any of the things which are not seen and are eternal , she would be cast into grievous agonies ; and when she assayed in her milder fits to read any portion of the scriptures , repeat any of the psalms , or answer any questions of the catechisms ( which she could do exactly well at other times ) she was suddenly struck dumb and lay as dead , her mouth opened to such a wideness that her jaws seem'd to be out of joynt , and anon they would clap together again with incredible force . the same happened to her shoulder blade , her elbow , and wrists . she would at other times ly in a benum'd condition , and drawn together as if she had been ty'd neck and heels with ropes ; and on a sudden would with such force and violence be pull'd up , and tear all about her , that it was as much as one or two could do to hold her in their arms : but when ministers and other good christians ( seeing her in such intollerable anguish ) made serious application by prayer to god on her behalf , she had respite from her greivous fits of this kind , and was ordinarly free of them during most of the time of prayer , tho seiz'd by them before ; usually when ministers began to pray she made great disturbance by idle lowd talk , whistling , singing , and roaring , to drown the voice of the person praying . particularly ianuary . she was more turbulent then at other times , and continued some space after the minister began to pray , singing and making a hideous noise , fetching furious blows with her fist , and kicks with her feet at the minister , uttering reproachful talk to him , and calling him dog , &c. yet being compos'd , and her fits over before prayer was ended , the minister , when he had done , finding her sober and in a right composure of mind , enquired why she made such disturbance ? she reply'd , she was forc't to do it by the hellish crue about her , and that she thought they were none of her own words that she uttered . ianuary th . she said that some things relating both to her self and to others had been suggested to her by her troublers ; but that they had threatned to torment her if she should offer to make them known . and accordingly as she essay'd to express her mind , she was cast into two grievous fits , in which she cry'd out of violent pains ; all the parts of her body becoming stiff and extended like a corps , her head was twisted round , and if any person offered by force to obstruct such dangerous motions , she would roar out exceedingly ; sometimes her neck-bone seem'd to be dislocated , and yet on a sudden became so stiff that there was no moving of it ; and when those grevious agonys were over , she again essay'd to express her mind in writing , but to no purpose ; for she was cast instantly into other two very grievous fits , wherein she was struck dumb , deaf and blind , and her tongue drawn to a prodigeous length over her chin. and when the fits were over she declar'd , that the andersons i. p. the gentlewoman , and i. d. with the rest of the hellish crew , some of whom she could not name , had been tormenting her in her fits , and that there had been fifteen of them about the house all last night ; but were now all gone save one who was to stay about the house till her fits were over . and accordingly her brother and sister declared that they saw in the morning a woman in the garden with a red coat about her head , sitting at the root of an apple-tree ; but bargarren with most of the servants being abroad , that matter was not further search't into . that same day about six at night , she was seiz'd with variety of greivous fits , in which sometimes she lay wholly senseless and breathless , with her belly swel'd like a drum , her eyes were pul'd into her head so far that the spectators thought she should never have us'd them more , sometimes when she was tying her own neck-cloaths , her enchanted hands would tye them so strait that she had certainly strangled her self if the spectators had not prevented her ; sometimes she offered with violence to throw her self into the fire , and divers times she struck furiously at her near relations . in her fits she 'd maintain discourse with her tormentors , ask questions concerning her self and others and receive answers from them ; which none but her self could hear : she reasoned particularly with one of them after this manner ; o what ail'd thee to be a witch ! thou say'st it is but three nights since thou wast a witch , o if thou would'd repent , it may be god might give thee repentance , if thou would'st seek it , and confess ; if thou would desire me i would do what i could ; for the devil is an ill master to serve , he is a lyer from the beginning , he promises but he cannot perform . then calling for her bible , she said , i 'll let thee see where he promised to our first parents , that they should not dye , and reading the passage , said , now thou seest he is a lier ; for by breaking of the commandment , they were made liable to death here and death everlasting . o that 's an uncouth word ; long eternity never to have an end , never never to have an end : had not god of his infinite mercy , ordain'd some to eternal life through jesus christ. the devil makes thee believe thou wilt get great riches by serving him ; but come near , and having uttered this word she lost the power of her speech , her tongue being drawn back into her throat ; yet beckning with her hand to the spectre to come near her , and turning over the book , kep't her eye upon that passage of holy scripture , iob. . . and pointing with her finger at the place , and shaking her head , turn'd over the book again . and recovering speech , said , i 'll let thee see where god bids us seek and we shall find , and reading over the place said , it is god that gives us every good gift , we have nothing of our own , i submit to his will tho i never be better ; for god can make all my trouble turn to my advantage , according to his word , rom. . . which place she then read , and thus continued reasoning , for the space of an hour . sometimes she cry'd out of violent pain , by reason of furious blows and strokes she had received from the hands of her tormentors , the noise of which those that stood by heard distinctly , tho they perceiv'd not the hands that gave them . one night sitting with her parents and others , she cry'd out something was wounding her thigh ; upon which , instantly her mother putting her hand in the damsels pocket , found her folding knife open'd , which had been folded when put into her pocket , but her uncle not believing the thing ; did again put up the knife and leaving it folded in her pocket on a sudden she cry'd out as before , that the knife was cutting her thigh , being unfolded by the means of i. p. and others : upon which her uncle searching her pocket , found the knife open'd as formerly . this happened twice or thrice to the admiration of the beholders , who took special notice that neither she her self nor any other visible hand opened it . ianuary th . she was again seiz'd with her swooning fits , with this remarkable variation ; her throat was sometimes most prodigiously extended , and sometimes as strangely contracted , so that she appear'd in palpable danger of being choak't , and through the violence of pain in her throat and difficulty of breathing struggled with her feet and hands , as if some body had been actually strangling her , and she could neither speak nor cry out to any ; with these kind of fits she was frequently seiz'd for several days ; and in the intervals declar'd that the fore-mention'd persons , and others ( whom she could not then name ) were strangling her , and that the occasion of her not having power to speak or cry in the fit , was a ball in her throat , which also was visible to the spectators ; for they did clearly discern a bunch in her throat ( while in the fit ) as big as a pullets egg which had almost choak't her . sometimes she was kep't from eating her meat ; having her teeth close together when she carried any food to her mouth . also she was diverse times kept from drinking when at meat ; no sooner tasting the drink , but she was in hazard to be choak't ; sometimes she held the cup so hard betwixt her teeth , that it was not in the power of those that were with her to unloose it . and when any thing had fallen out amiss in the place where she was , as the falling and breaking of a cup , any body's receiving harm or the like ; she would fall a laughing and rejoyce extremely ; which was far from her temper at other times . february st . she attempted to tell some things that she had been forbidden by her tormentors , upon which she was grievously tormented ; at the beginning of her fits she would look odly ; sometimes towards the chimney , sometimes towards other places of the room , but could not always tell what she saw ; yet ordinarily she 'd name such and such persons , who , she said were then come to cast her into fits. and when any desired her to cry to the lord jesus for help , her teeth were instantly set closs , her eyes twisted almost round , and she was thrown upon the floor in the posture of one that had been some days laid out for dead : and on a sudden she would recover again , and weep bitterly to think what had befal'n her . that same day , when her fits were over , she said , she perceiv'd it was by means of a charm , that such restraints were laid upon her as she could not tell what the witches had forbidden her to make known , but the charm might be found out ( as she said ) by searching beneath the bed where she lay ; and having quickly done it her self , she found ( to the apprehension of the spectators ) an egg-shell open in the end , which being thrown into the fire , did melt after the manner of wax , without any such noise as egg-shells use to make when thrown into the fire . after this she said , she should not now be handled so severely , upon essaying to make known what the witches had forbidden her , only her tongue would be drawn back into her throat , which accordingly happened . she did likewise inform her friends of many things she had not liberty to do before the charm was found out , particularly that her tormentors had frequently solicited her to become a witch her self , and promised her great riches , and perfect health to induce her thereunto . which tentation , she through the infinit mercy of god still resisted , reasoning with them after this manner : the devil promises what he cannot perform ▪ and granting he could fulfill his promises ; yet i am sure from the scriptures , hell and the wrath of god will be the final reward of all such as yeild to this wickedness . to which she receiv'd this reply ( which indeed none but her self could hear ) that hell and the wrath of god so much talk't of , was not so formidable as represented . she also said , the witches had importunatly urged her to give her consent to the taking away the life of her young sister , who was at that time upon her mothers breast ; which tentation also she was enabled throw the grace of god to resist . she told her parents likeways , there had been a charm laid upon the top of the house where her young sister was ( the child having been sent out to nursing by reason of the continued affliction of the family ) and that the charm had been plac'd there by pinch'd maggi , who thereby did design the taking away of her sisters life ; and that this was the cause why she had so often for some weeks before desired her mother to bring home her sister , constantly affirming , that the child would daily decay as long as she stayed there : whereupon her parents observing the decay of the infant ; even to skin and bone , they brought her home , where she recovered . and the girl being asked how she came to the knowledge of these things ? reply'd , that something speaking distinctly as it were over her head , had suggested these and other things of that nature to her . february d . being in the chamber with her mother and others , she was on a sudden struck with great fear and consternation ; and fell a trembling , upon the sight of one iohn lindsay of barcloch , talking with her father in the hall. she told her mother , the foresaid lindsay had been always one of her most violent tormentors , and that she had been threatned with extreame tortures , if she should offer to name him ; whereupon she was desired to go toward the place where he was , and touch some part of his body , unknown to him , which having done , with some aversation , she was instantly seiz'd with extreame tortures in all the parts of her body . after which lindsay was examin'd thereupon ; but giving no satisfying answer , was desir'd to take the damsel by the hand , which being unwillingly prevail'd with to do , she was immediately , upon his touch , cast into intolerable anguish , her eyes almost twisted round , and all the parts of her body becoming stiff , she fell down in the posture of one that for some days had been dead , and afterwards got up on a sudden , and tearing her cloaths , threw her self with violence upon him , and when her fits were over , the spectators did also take the damsel by the hanud , but no such effects followed . about six at night there came an old highland fellow to bagarren , who calling himself a weary traveller , said , he behooved to lodge there that night ; but the servants refusing him lodging , gave him something by way of almes . at this time the damsel being in the chamber with her mother , and another gentlewoman , said , to her best apprehension , there was one of the wicked crew in or about the house at that time ; whereupon her mother made hast with her daughter down stairs toward the kitchen . and finding there unexpectedly the highland fellow , whom the girle then accused , as one of her tormentors , she desir'd him to take her daughter by the hand , which he being urg'd to do , the girle immediately , upon his touch , was grievously tormented in all the parts of her body . whereupon bargarran gave orders to secure him . the next morning the minister being come to visit the damsel , called for the highland fellow , and having examin'd him about this matter , without any satisfyfying answer , he brought the child out of ●…he chamber , covering her face , and almost her whole body with his cloak ; and giving signs to the highland fellow to touch her in this posture , as he had order'd him before , without the damsels knowledge , he did it with great aversion ; and the girle not knowing of his touch , was instantly cast into intollerable agonies ; yet others afterwards touching her , no such event followed . and when her fits were over , she besought the highfand fellow to allow her the liberty to discover the persons that haunted and molested her , whom he had forbidden her to make known : upon which the old fellow looking at her with an angry countenance , her mouth was instantly stop't , and her teeth sett : but being desired by those present to speak her mind freely ; whether he would or not , at length she reply'd , that she was affraid to do it . and when by the importunity of the lairds of dargavel and porterfield of fulwood , and some other gentlemen there present , she essay'd to declare her mind , she was seiz'd with her fits again . before this time , the lamentable case of the afflicted damsel and family had been represented to his majesty's most honourably privy-council , who , upon serious application made to them , granted a commission to a noble lord , and some worthy gentlemen , to make enquiry into the matter . by vertue of this commission some suspected persons were seiz'd ; particularly on february . alexander anderson ( an ignorant , irreligious fellow , who had been always of evil fame , and accused by the afflicted damsel ) was by a special order from the commissioners for enquiry , apprehended and committed to prison ; as was also elizabeth anderson his daughter , upon strong presumptions of witchcraft ; for the other year iean fulton her grand-mother , an old scandalous woman , being cited before the kirk session , and accus'd for cursing , and imprecating mischief upon several persons , which had been followed with fatal events ; the fore mentioned elizabeth anderson her grand child , who liv'd in the house with her , did declare before the session , she had frequently seen the devil in company with her grand mother , in the likeness of a small black man , and that he usually vanished on a sudden , when any body came to the door . upon this presumption was the said elizabeth anderson seiz'd with her father , and committed to custody ; but at first most obstinatly denied any manner of accession to the sin of witchcraft , until afterwards , that being seriously importun'd in prison by two gentlemen , she did , before she came to bargarran's house , confess her guilt . and that she had been at several meetings with the devil and witches , and , amongst others , she accus'd her own father , and the fore-mention'd high-land fellow , to have been active instruments in the girl 's trouble ; and before she was confronted with him , gave exact marks of this highland man , tho' she knew not his name ; yet when she saw him did accuse him , and affirm'd he was the person she spoke of . february th . a quorum of the commissioners being met at bargarran , and the persons then accused by elizabeth anderson to have been at meetings with the devil , and active instruments of the damsels trouble , viz. alexander anderson her father , agnes nasmith , margaret fulton , iames lindsay , alias curat , katharine campbel , were all of them confronted , with christian shaw , before the lord blantyre , and the rest of the commissioners , and several other gentlemen of note and ministers ; and accused by her as her tormentors . and they having all severally touched her in the presence of the commissioners , she was , at each of their touches , seiz'd with grievous fits , and cast into intollerable agonies ; others then present did also touch her , in the same manner , but no such effect followed . and it is remarkable , that when katharine cambel touched the girle , she was immediately seiz'd with more grievous fits , and cast into more intollerable torments than upon the touch of the other accused persons ; whereat cambel her self being daunted and confounded , tho' she had formerly declined to bless her , uttered these words ; the lord god of heaven and earth bless thee , and save thee both soul and body ; after which , the damsel , when the fits were over , in which she had lain a most pitiful spectacle , did declare she was now loos'd , and that she might freely touch any of the accus'd persons , or they her after this , without trouble , which accordingly , upon trial , fell out : and being enquired how she came to the knowledge of that , answered as formerly in the like case ; that something speaking distinctly as it were over head , suggested this to her ; and likewise , usually gave her the knowledge of the names of her tormentors , and places in which they liv'd . february . the girle being seiz'd with sore fits , something was seen in her mouth like pieces of orange-pills , which were invisibly convey'd thither ; she seem'd ; in her agonies to chew them ; and having got them down her throat , she fell down as if she had been choak't , strugling with her feet and hands , and at the last gasp , and her throat swelling in a prodigious manner , to the affrightment of the spectators ; when she recover'd she was light-headed for some time , and would say , o it was a very sweet orange-pill which i got from the gentlewoman ; declaring also , that there had been others there , particularly margaret l. or pinch't maggi , whose sirname she had neither power nor liberty to express , neither durst she of●…er to do it , least she should be tormented as was threatned , and alwayes came to pass when she essay'd to do it , either by speaking or writing , as had appear'd the day before in presence of the commissioners . about this time , thomas lindsay , a young boy , not yet twelve years of age , was seiz'd , upon strong presumptions of witchcraft ; he had said before several credible persons , that the devil was his father , and if he pleas'd he could fly in the likeness of a crow , up to the mast of a ship ; he sometimes caus'd a plough to stand , and the horses to break their yokes upon the pronouncing of some words , and turning himself about from the right-hand to the left , contrary to the natural course of the sun. this he would do upon the desire of any body for a half-penny . upon these and the like presumptions he was apprehended , and at first continu'd most obstinate in denyal ; yet afterwards confess'd to the minister , in his own house , before credible witnesses , his compact with the devil , and that he had receiv'd the insensible mark from him , which is visible upon his body : as also , that he had been at several meetings with the devil and witches , where he said were present his brother iames , with others , and particularly those who had been accus'd by anderson . this he confest , with some others of the like kind , before he was committed to custody . after this , bargarran made diligent search for iames lindsay , elder brother to thomas , he having been all along accused by the afflicted damsel , as one of her troublers , by the name of the gleid , or squint-ey'd elff , ( the rest of her tormentors having call'd him so , because of his squint eyes ) when he was brought to the place , he did at first obstinately deny his guilt , yet , at length , by the endeavours of mr. patrick simpson , a neighbouring minister , ingenuously confessed it , and did agree in every material circumstance with the other two , tho' he knew not what they had confest , he having neither seen them before his confession , nor had any occasion of information in conference with others , being immediately brought thither from the prison of glasgow , where he had been shut up some weeks before as a vagabond , in order to be sent to forreign plantations . a more particular account of what all of them freely confess'd and acknowledg'd before the commissioners for enquiry , we have , for the satisfaction of the reader , subjoyn'd to the narrative ; with an abstract of the report made by the commissioners , to the lords of his majesty's most honourable privy-council , concerning the who●…e affair . february . there was by the presbitry's appointment a publick fast kept on the damsels account in the church of erskine , in which mr. turner , minister of the place , begun with prayer , expounding rev. . from vers. . to vers. . mr. iames hutchison minister at killellan took the next turn of prayer , and preach'd on pet. . . and mr. simpson concluded the work , preaching on mat. . , . the girl was present all day ; and before she came to church that morning , told , that while she was in one of her fits the night before , she heard the devil speaking of that publick fast , and what ministers were to be there ; and that the old man mr. iames hutchison , should stumble , and his peruick fall off as he went up to the pulpit , and all the people should laugh at him ; and he should break his neck in going home . and when she came out of the church , she said , the devil was a liar , for no ●…uch thing fell out as he had threatned . she was all day very quiet in church ; though troubled with some of her light fits , during which some spectres appear'd , as she told afterwards . about six at night there were present in the chamber with the damsel , mr. simpson with his wife , the lady northbarr ; and others , discoursing and conferring about her case ; and while they were thus conferring together , she told them , she would gladly make some things known , if she durst , for her tormenters ; and afterwards attempting to do it , was instantly seiz'd with a violent fit ; in which she leapt strait up , and appear'd as if she had been choak'd , so that it was as much as one or two could do , to hold her fast in their armes : and when the fit was over , mr. simpson going about family worship , did expound psalm . and speaking of the limitted power of the adversaries of our lord jesus chist , from the latter part of verse . she was on a sudden seiz'd with another grievous fit , and some blood issued from her mouth , which rais'd grounds of fear and jealousy in the minds of the spectators , as to the occasion of it ; yet they could not get her mouth open'd , her teeth being close set . and in the interval of the fit being ask'd , if she found any thing in her mouth that had been the occasion of that blood ; she reply'd , she found nothing , nor knew not the cause of it ; but opening her mouth , they found one of her double-teeth newly drawn ; yet tho' search was made for the same , it could not be found : after which the minister proceeded upon the same subject , but was again interrupted by her renewed fits , yet closed the exercise with prayer ; after which she was taken to bed , without any farther trouble that night . february . margaret laing and her daughter martha semple , being accused by the three that had confessed , and accused by the girl to have been active instruments in her trouble , came of their own accord to bargarran's house , and before they came up stairs the girl said , she was now bound up , and could not accuse margaret laing to her face : and accordingly the girl 's mother having desired some of those who were sitting by her to feel her body , they found her so stiff and inflexible , that there was no moving of it , and immediatly again found some parts of her body contracted and drawn hard , as if by cords ; after this margaret laing and her daughter , having gone to the chamber to the girl ; did in presence of the ministers and others , desire the damsel to come to her ; for she ▪ would do her no harm , and laying her arms about her , spake very fairly to her , and question'd her if ever she had seen her or her daughter amongst her tormentors , to which the girl did positively reply , she had frequently seen her daughter ; but declined throw fear to accuse her self , saying faintly no ; after which margaret and her daughter returning into the hall , and the minister requiring at her why she said no , seeing she had accus'd her before , she answered , you must take my meaning to be otherwise , upon which she was seiz'd with a grievous fit ; and after her recovery being urg'd again to tell her mind freely , whether or not margaret laing was one of her tormentors , the child thereupon essaying to say yes , and having half pronounced the word , was cast into unexpressible anguish ; and again in the interval of the fit , she essay'd to express the same thing , and saying only the word tint ( that is lost ) was on a sudden struck with another fit , and when the fit was over , and the child returned to the chamber , margaret laing who was sitting near the hall door , spoke these words the lord bless thee , and ding ( that is beat , or drive ) the devil out of thee . a little after which , margaret going down stairs , the damsel came to the hall and said , her bonds were now loos'd , and that she could accuse margaret laing to her face , and declar'd the occasion of her being so restrain'd while margaret was present , was her letting fall a parcel of hair at the hall door as she came in ; being a charm made by her for that end , which also had been the occasion of her uttering the word tint in the former fit : and accordingly a parcel of hair had been found at the hall-door , after margaret laing had gone straight from the hall to the chamber , which immediatly was cast into the fire and burnt . and its remarkable , that it could be attested that there was no hair , or any other thing else in that place before margaret laing came in , and the girl being enquired , what way she knew margaret laing had laid the fore-mentioned charm upon her , replyed , that something speaking distinctly to her as it were over her head , inform'd her so . about eight at night she was severely handled in her fits , much after the former manner , and while she was in her swooning fits , there was seen in her mouth a pin , wherewith she seem'd almost choak't ; but by divine providence it was got out , tho with great difficulty . after this she was somewhat composed , and did not much complain of pain ; but was distinctly heard to entertain discourse with some invisible creatures about her , and the reply's given by her , and heard by those who took care of her , gave them ground to conclude she was tempted to set her hand to a paper then presented to her , with promises that upon her yielding thereunto she should never be troubled any more ; as also that she should have sweet meats , a glass of sack , and a handsome coat with silver lace : she was also distinctly heard to say , resisting the tempter , thou art a filthy sow , should i obey thee ; this was not the end of my creation , but to glorify god and enjoy him for ever ; and thou promisest what thou canst not perform : art thou angry at me for saying thou sow , what should i call thee but thou filthy sow ? art thou not the filthy devil , for as brave as thou art with thy silver and gold lace ? wouldst thou have me renounce my baptism ? dost thou promise to give me brave men in marriage , and fine cloaths , and perfect health , if i should consent thereunto ? dost thou say my baptism will do me no good , because thou alledgest he was not a sufficient minister that baptized me ? thou art a liar , i 'll be content to dye ere i renounce my baptism . o thorow the grace of god i 'll never do it . and thus she continued reasoning , being both blind and deaf , for the space of two hours ; and when she came to her self did declare it was the devil , who first presented himself tempting her in the shape of a sow , to renounce her baptism , as is hinted ; and that he did chide her when she call'd him , thou sow , and immediatly appear'd to her again in the shape of a brave gentleman , having gold and silver lace on his cloaths , still urging her to renounce her baptism , which temptation through the special assistance of the grace of god she effectually resisted : she also said , that it had been suggested to her by the spirit , speaking to her as formerly over her head , after the combat with the tempter was past , that one of her tormentors would be at the house to morrow . february . she was seiz'd with a sore fit about twelve a clock of the day , in which she continued for more than two hours , both deaf and blind . those in the room with her cry'd to her aloud , and pinch'd her hands and other parts of her body ; but all to no purpose . and in this posture she was hurried ●…o and fro with violence thorow the room : and when any body offer'd to hinder the dangerous and violent motion she seem'd to be in , she 'd roar exceedingly , sometimes she 'd desire her father and mother and others to come and take her home ( supposing her self not to be in her fathers house ) when she was in this deplorable condition , margaret roger who liv'd in the neighbour-hood , came to the house of bargarren enquiring for the lady ; and having come up stairs , the parents of the damsel remembering the girl had said the night before , that one of her tormentors was to come that day to the house , brought margaret roger to the chamber where she was , and so soon as she entered the door ; the damsel tho she could discern none of those who were present with her , nor answer them when they cry'd to her ; yet presently saw her and ran towards her , crying , maggi , maggi , where hast thou been ? wi●…t thou take me with thee , for my father and mother have left me . whereupon the spectators being astonish'd , caus'd morgaret to speak to the child ; which she having done , the girle distinctly heard and answered her every word . after this , the three that had confessed , were also brought up to the chamber where the damsel was ; and as soon as they entered the door , she ran also to them , laughing , as if she had been overjoy'd , answering them when they spoke to her : and margaret roger being confronted with them , they declared that she had been at meetings with the devil and witches in bargarran's orchard , consulting and contriving the childes ruine . the lord's day following , being february . after some short intervals , she was again seiz'd with her fits , in which she said , margaret laing , and her daughter martha semple , were tormenting her , and cutting her throat ; which words , through violence of pain , and difficulty of breathing , she uttered with a low , and scarcely , audible voice ; and upon the naming of margaret laing and her daughter , she was tossed and dreadfully tormented in all the parts of her body , being made sometimes to stand upon her head and feet at once , sometimes her belly swelling like a drum , and falling again on a sudden ; and sometimes her head , and other parts of her body were like to be shaken in pieces , so that the spectators fear'd she would never speak more . and when the fit was over , she declar'd , margaret laing said to her , while in the fit , that she would give her a tosty ( which imports hot and severe handling ) for naming her . at this time she was seldom free of her light-headed-fits , which , for the most part , were all the respite and ease she had from the unexpressible agonies she endur'd in her more grievous fits ; unless when asleep : and while she was in these fits , no body could perswade her to pray ; yet , when in a right composure of mind , she 'd weep bitterly at the remembrance of this , expressing her fears , least it might be an evidence that god would for sake her . february . about two in the afternoon , she being in a light-headed-fit , said , the devil now appear'd to her in the shape of a man ; whereupon being struck with great fear and consternation , she was desir'd to pray with an audible voice , the lord rebuke thee satan : which essaying to do , she instantly lost her power of speech , her teeth being sett , and her tongue drawn back into her throat ; and attempting it again , she was immediately seiz'd with another grievous fit ; in which her eyes being twisted almost round , she fell down as one dead , struggling with feet and hands , and getting up again on a sudden , was hurried with violence too and fro , thorow the room , deaf and blind ; yet was speaking with some invisible creature about her saying , with the lord's strength thou shal't neither put straw nor sticks into my mouth . after this she cry'd in a pitiful manner , the bee hath sting'd me : then presently sitting down , and untying her stocking , put her hand to that part which had been nip't or pinch't ; whereupon the spectators did visibly discern the lively marks of nails of fingers deeply imprinted on that same part of her leg. and when she came to her self , she did declare , that something speaking to her , as it were over her head , told her it was m. m. in a neighbouring parish ( naming the place ) that had appear'd to her , and pinch't her leg in the likeness of a bee. she likewise declared , that the forementioned m. m. instantly after this had been suggested to her , appeared in her own shape and likeness , as she us'd to be at other times . shortly after this , being still seiz'd with her light fit , she whisper'd in her mothers ear , the devil was now appearing to her again in the shape of a gentleman : and being instantly seiz'd with her light fits , in which she was both blind and deaf , was distinctly heard , arguing after this manner . thou think'st to tempt me to be a witch ; but through god's strength thou shalt never be the better : i charge thee , in the name of god to be gone , and thy papers too ; in the lord's strength i 'll not fear thee : i 'll stand here and see , if thou can come one step nearer me ; i think thou fearest me more then i fear thee . then turning her self again , she was hurried to and fro with violence thorow the room as formerly , saying , she was bitten or pinch't very sore in the hands with teeth , and nip't with fingers above twenty four times ; which occasion'd her to utter horrid shreeks , and out-crys at every time she receiv'd them , shewing and pointing with her finger to those parts of her arm and leg which had been pinch't and bitten , but neither saw nor heard any about her . and accordingly the spectators did visibly discern the evident marks of the teeth and nails of fingers upon her arms and legs . in this postute the girle continued from two to five in the afternoon ; and when her miseries were over , she sa●…d , m. m. told her in the fit , that margaret laing , then in custody , had ordered her to handle her after that manner . and that margaret laing had a commanding power over her . on friday and saturday , february and . she was frequently seiz'd with the foremention'd fits , and violently bitten , pincht and nipt in her hands , neck , and other parts of her body , so that the marks of the nails of fingers and teeth , with the spittle and slaber of a mouth thereupon were evidently seen by spectators . when she was seiz'd with her blind and deaf fits , a crooked fellow appear'd to her , having his two feet deform'd , his two heels turning inwards toward one another , and the fore-parts of his feet outward , so that the broad side of his feet mov'd foremost ; and upon the appearing of this fellow , her feet were put in the very same posture during the time he tormented her . it is to be observed that there is a fellow in one of the neighbouring-parishes , whose feet are exactly deform'd in that manner , who has been of a long time of evil fame , and accused by those that confessed , to have been at meatings with the devil , and the rest of the crew in bargarren's orchard . saturday , february . the whole family being gone to bed , they had left a great quantity of peets ( or turff ) by the hall chimney , which , the next morning , they saw burnt to ashes , though there had been no fire in the chimney , nor near them , so that the plaister and stones of the wall , where the peets or turff lay , were , in a great part , turn'd to rubbish by the violence of the fire , but no other damage followed , the hall-floor being laid with stones , and the peets lying within the brace of a large chimney . febr. th . the chamber-fire having been covered with ashes in the chimney when the family went to bed , the next morning , though a good quantity of ashes had been left ; yet they found all clean sweept away , and no appearance of ashes nor fire at all , th●… none in the family had been there after the fire was covered . in fits of this kind she continued for several days after , naming the foremention'd crooked fellow , i. r. and m. a. two women that lived in the neighbouring parishes , which two latter were accus'd ( by the three that had confessed ) to be amongst her tormenters , and particularly upon the lords day february . and the munday following , the said i. r. appearing to her grievously vexed her , telling her she was commissioned so to do , the gentlewoman m. m. having a pain in her head at that time , and so not being able to come forth . concerning which it is worthy of remark , that the damsel declar'd m. m. to have appeared to her about two days after , with her head bound up with a handker-chief , in which posture she did not formerly appear . upon thursday february . she continued in the former fits , weeping bitterly and complaining of a pain in both her sides , she also told in the interval of her fits , that she was that night to be in very grievous and sore fits , her tormenters being resolved to choak her , by putting pins in her mouth , which ( tho she emptied her self of all that were in her cloaths ) yet accordingly came to pass : in those fits she was both blind and deaf , leaping up and down in an extraordinary manner , and thus continued for some days voiding out of her mouth a great quantity of small broken ●…ins , which she declar'd i. r. had forc'd into the same . upon the lords day being the last of february , about five a clock in the afternoon she fell into grievous fits , accompained with loud laughing , leaping , and runing with violence to and fro , and thereafter wept sore , crying out of pain , and that a little highland man ( whom she knew to be such by his habit and speech ) was now breaking her leg ; which ( because of pain ) she scarce could get told in the fit , and putting her hand to the part of her leg affected , the spectators untying her stocking , distinctly observed a sore bruise in her shin bone ; which when touched did so pain her , that she uttered horrid shreeks and crys ; and when recovered did declare , that the little highland fellow had given her that bruise . after this , she voided at her mouth a crooked pin , which she said the highland fellow had forc't into her mouth , and design'd to choak her . the first eight days of march she continued in her former fits ; with little variation , voiding at her mouth a great number of small pins and often fainted and fell as dead upon the ground on a sudden , strugling with feet and hands ; by all which her natural spirits were much weakned and exhausted ; sometimes also she attempted to go into the fire . about this time when ministers and other christians met in the family for prayer , she us'd at the beginning of the work to make great disturbance , particularly march . which day being set apart for fasting and praying , she was for some time very composed , until of a sudden , a strong blast of wind forced open the windows of the room ; upon which she was instantly seiz'd with a violent fit , whilst the minister was supplicating god that she might be delivered from satans bonds : in this fit she was both blind and deaf as to all , except her tormentors , was hurried with violence to and fro in the room , sometimes falling down as one dead , sometimes singing and making a hideous noise , sometimes naming m. m. and others , who she said , were there present afflicting and tormenting her , and named the particular places of the room where she saw them standing and sitting . and when recovered from the fit , she told that a gentlewoman and a little highland fellow came in with the blast of wind , which forc'd open the windows . this falling out upon the tuesday , she continued in the light fit without any intermission , till the sabbath after , not being seiz'd with any of her sore fits : and having gone to church the lords day following , was perfectly well ●…or the most part of the day ; yet affirmed she saw ianet wagh and others in one of the windows of the church , tho invisible to all others . tuesday being march the th . her mother and margaret campbel her cousin took the damsel to walk with them in the orchard ; and returning back to the house , her mother entered the tower gate first , with the damsel at her back and margaret campbel tarrying a little while at the gate , her mother went into the kitchen , supposing they had both been with her , whereas the damsel was of a sudden carried away in a flight up stairs with so swift and unaccountable a motion , that her absence was not in the least suspected , but her mother turning about and missing her , cry'd , where is christian and margaret campbel ? and instantly runing up stairs to look for the damsel heard a noise and following the same , found her leaping and dancing upon one of the stairs being seiz'd with fits , out of which being recovered she told , that i. p. had carried her away from her mothers back as she entred the kitchen door ( her feet not touching the ground to her apprehension ) with a design to strangle her in an high wardrob with ropes on which they us'd to to dry linnen , but that the said i. p. could carry her no further then the place where she was found , and did therefore leave her in such a violent sit . upon the lords day after being march . her fits altered , her mouth and nose were prodigiously distorted , and her face thereby strangely and horridly deform'd . that same day being at church in the forenoon , her glove falling from her , was again put into her hand by some invisible agent , to the amazment o●… the beholders . to which we may add here , as that which is worthy of remark , that all this while an invisible beeing haunted her on all occasions , suggesting many things to her , both concerning her self and others ; but yet wa●… never heard by any but her self . the same day betwixt sermons , she foretold that she was to be violently tormented in the afternoon ; which accordingly came to pass , and in her fits she named one i. k. a woman living in the neighbourhood , of whom she said , that she had seen her in the church . as also , that she was master of these kind of fits she was now afflicted with ; withal asserting , that it the said i. k. were not sent for , she would grow worse and worse ; which her parents finding to be true , sent in the evening for the said i. k. threatning her , if the damsel was any further troubled with her , that she should be apprehended as others had been ; after which the damsel being in the mean time in a very sore fit , the forementioned i. k. prayed ( tho not desired ) that god might send the damsel her health ; whereupon the damsel was no more troubled with these kind of fits ; but did instantly recover , by falling into a swoon as she us'd to do before her recovery out of any of her fits . tuesday march , she was again seiz'd with her other fits , all the parts of her body being stiff ; and sometimes she was heard conversing with the gentlewoman ( as she call'd her ) vindicating her self of what the gentlewoman alledged against her , viz. that she had accused some innocent persons as her tormentors , to which the damsel distinctly reply'd , that she was a lyar , saying , it was you your self , and no other ever mentioned any such thing . thus she continued until the friday after , being never free of the light fits , and now and then also falling into swoons , and appear'd to be almost choaked by the means of some charms and inchantments , invisibly convey'd into her mouth ; which , to the apprehension of spectators , were like pieces of chestnuts , orange-pills , whites of eggs , or such like , all which were distinctly observed ; when occasionally in the fit she opened her mouth , and when the spectators essay'd to get them out , she kept her mouth and teeth so closs , that no man could open the same . and when recover'd out of the fit , she told , that l. m. a woman living in the neighbourhood , had put them in her mouth . upon friday , march . she was violently tormented with sore fits , in which her neck was distorted , and bended back , like a bow , towards her heels , she strugling with her feet and hands , and was sometimes stiff , blind and deaf , and voided at her mouth a great number of small pins , which she said the foremention'd l. m. had put there . about six a clock that same night , being violently tormented , she fell a crying , that if the gentlewoman was not ●…hended that night , it would be in vain to apprehend her to morrow : ●…or , said she , i have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 suffer at her hands betwixt twelve and one a clock in the morning . after this , the damsel 〈◊〉 up her eye lids with her hands , and looking upwards , said , i●… ha●… art thou that tells me , that the sheriff and my father are coming here this night ? after which the sheriff , her father , and iames 〈◊〉 , macer to the justiciary court instantly came up stairs , to the amazement of those who remembred what the damsel had just said . the girl continued afterwards blind and deaf , yet was heard , in the presence of the sheriff , &c. discoursing distinctly with some invisible being near her , saying , is the sheriff come , is he near me ? and stretching out her hand to feel if any person were near her , the sheriff put his hand in hers ; notwithstanding which , she said to the invisible being , that discours'd with her , i cannot feel the sheriff , how can he be present here ? or how can i have him by the hand as thou say'st , seeing i feel it not ? thou say'st he hath brown clothes , red plush breeches with black stripes , flowred mu●…ling cravat , and an imbroidered sword-belt , thou says , there is an old gray-hair'd man with him , having a ring upon his hand ; but i can neither see nor feel any of them : what , are they come to apprehend the gentlewoman ? is this their errand indeed ? and the girl being enquired at , how she came to the knowledge of these strange things ? reply'd , as formerly , in the like case , that something speaking distinctly , as over her head , suggested them to her . it is very observable , that the persons aforesaid had that same afternoon got an order from the commissioners of justiciary to apprehend the same gentlewoman , and were so far on their way to put it in execution against next morning ; but being witnesses to the damsels trouble , and hearing what she had told , viz. that a delay in that matter would prove exceeding dangerous to her , they went straight on in their journey to the gentlewomans habitation , and put their warrant in execution that same night ; the damsel continued to be violently tormented , sometimes lying with her neck , and other parts of her body upon the ground , as if they had been disjoynted , and sometimes essaying to throw her self into the fire . about ten a clock , her father ( who had not gone with the sheriff ) began to read in the bible , and she repeated the words after him , though blind and deaf , which made the spectators to apprehend , that she had the sense of hearing in those fits , at least when the word of god was read : to find out the truth of which , her father ceas'd from reading ; yet she continued to repeat the following verses of the chapter , though none in the room were reading , and her self had no book , but was heard to say to some invisible being , wilt thou teach me a part of the old testament as well as the new. she continued in her fits , and said unto the people that were present , now it is twelve of the clock ; oh it is now past twelve : sometimes lying as one dead through the violence of pain , and decay of her natural spirits ; sometimes again recovering , she essayed to express somewhat , but could not ; a great quantity of crooked pins issued out of her mouth , and her body being prodigiously distorted , she complain'd of great pain . thus she continu'd until half an hour after twelve at night ; when , on a sudden , she recover'd , to the admiration of the beholders , telling them , she might now go to bed , being told by some invisible informer , that the sheriff , and the other gentleman , to wit the macer , had now entred the gentlewomans house ; and accordingly going to bed , she was no further troubled that night . it is worthy of remark here , that the sheriff and macer , at their return , declared , that it was just about that time they entered the gentlewomans house , which the damsel mention'd . saturday , march . about ten a clock in the forenoon , she was , of a sudden , seiz'd with fits , falling down as dead , with her eyes closed , and sometimes again opening and turning in her head , she saw nor heard none about her , but was hurried with violence to and fro through the room , crying with a loud voice when any one offered to hinder her motion . being in this posture , and deprived of her senses , iames lindsay , one of the three that had confessed , was brought into the room , and no sooner entered the door but was perceived by her , and she ran towards him smiling , saying , jamie , where hast thou been this long time ? how is it with thee ? and answered him distinctly to every word he spake , though , at the same time , she neither heard nor saw any other in the room , nor could she converse with them , which was tryed by several experiments for that purpose , particularly a tobacco-box , being held before her eyes by one of the company , she did not see it ; but assoon as it was put in the hand of iames lindsay , she enquired at him , where he had got that box ? she continuing in this condition , the sheriff and her father being present , thought it fit to confront m. m. who was now come , to try if the damsel would hear or see her , as she had done iames lindsay , which accordingly they did . and as soon as m. m. entered the door , the damsel ( though still in the fit ) presently smiled and said , i see the gentlewoman now : though she had never seen her personally before , but only by her spectre in the fits. she likewise heard when she spoke to her , and answered distinctly to some questions proposed by her , such as , when it was she had seen her 〈◊〉 her . to which she answered , she had seen her the other night in her fits : and further challeng'd her , why she had 〈◊〉 her from making known the highland womans name ? adding , thou pretendest thou knowest no●… what i say , thou knowest well enough . upon which the gentlewoman , on a sudden , ( without being de●…ired ) prayed , that the lord might send the damsel her health , saying , " lord help thee poor foolish child , and rebuke the devil . which words were no 〈◊〉 uttered , then the damsel fell down as dead ; and being carried to another room forthwith recovered of her blind , deaf , and light-headed fit , became perfectly well , and continued so for some time : being thus recovered , and m. m. removed into another room , the damsel was examined , whom she had seen in her last fit ? to whi●…h she reply'd , she had seen the gentlewoman : though , in the mean time , she was altogethe●… ignorant of her having been personally present with her . that same day the commissioners of justiciary being come to bargarren , m. m. and the damsel were again confronted , on which the child ( being in her light fit ) upon the first look of m. m. was suddenly seiz'd with sore fits , and when recovered , accused her as being one of her most violent tormentors , particularly mentioning such and such times in which she had in an extraordinary manner afflicted her , as also what words she spoke in her hearing while in the fit , and which is yet more remarkable , did question the gentlewoman if she did not sometime in december last when she was tormenting her , remember how she went away from her in great hast , saying she could stay no longer being obliged to attend a childs burial at home . in confirmation of which it is very credibly informed that w. r. a near neighbour of hers had a child burried that same day , and that the gentlewoman came not in due time to attend the corpse to the burial place , but the corpse being near to the church-yeard ere she reached the house from whence they ●…ame , she returned again to her own lodging , and so did not accompany the burial at all . the lords day following being march ▪ she fell into swooning fits , complained of a pain near her heart , and fell down as dead , not only when the fits seiz'd her , but also during the intervals , sometimes singing after an unusual manner , and informing the spectators that i. g. constrained her to that kind of musick , her own lips not at all moving in the time , which the beholders saw to be true , but her tongue mov'd , for preventing of which she frequently put her hand in her mouth . at this time when either she her self , or those about her , offered to read any part of the scripture , she was violently tormented , declaring if she did but so much as hear the word of god read that day , she would certainly be extremly tortured ; in confirmation of which when some essay'd to read heb. . , . . isa. . psal. . she uttered horrid shreeks and out-crys , complaining that she was pinched , in evidence of which , the prints or marks of the nails of fingers were distinctly seen on her arms , and being thus pinched or bitten four several times with great violence and pain , the skin it self was torn off those parts of her arms and fingers where the prints of the teeth and nails were observed ; so that the parts affected fell a bleeding , and her blood was both seen and handled by the spectators . while she was in this sad and lamentable condition she seem'd to be extreamly affected and oppressed with sore sickness , as one in a fever , crying sometimes to remove those dead children out of her sight ; which she frequently repeated from six to nine in the morning , she continued thus the rest of the day , and it was observed that some charm , and inchantments were put in her mouth as formerly , of which being very sensible , she fell down on a sudden to the ground putting her hand to some spittle which came out of her mouth , and lifted up some trash which she again cast down to the ground , so as it made a noise , yet nothing could be seen in her spittle , nor elsewhere by spectators , tho in her mouth they could distinctly observe something like orange pils , whites of eggs , and peeces of chesnuts . munday , being march . the before mentioned l. m. or i. g. came to bargarrans house , and being confronted with the damsel , questioned her if ever she had seen her in any of her fits , alledging that she withal could be none of her tormentors , because she was not now seiz'd with a fit , tho looking upon her , as she us'd to be , when she look'd upon any of her other tormentors ; upon which the damsel being for sometime silent , i. m. or i. g. did again propose the same question , to which the damsel distinctly reply'd yes , upon which l. m. reply'd , perhaps you have seen the the devil in my shape . as to this conference there are several things exceeding remarkable , as first , that the damsel upon her answering , yes , was immediatly seiz'd with a fit. dly . that tho after katharine campbel had touch'd the damsel in presence of the commissioners , upon the th . of february last , she had ever since that time freedom to touch any of her tormentors without being seiz'd with her fits , as has been hinted , yet true it is , that in the room of that charm a new one took place , viz. when any time she looked upon her tormentors in the face , at the very first look she was seiz'd with her fits ; which charm she declar'd was laid on her by the said l. m. or i. g. and taken off again by her that very morning before she came to visit the damsel , and this she said was suggested to her by some invisible beeing , speaking distinctly over her head ; and that therefore the damsel now had freedom to look l. m. in the face without being seiz'd with fits , which for a considerable time before she could not do when confronted with any of her tormentors . ly . it is yet more observable , that the same morning before ever l. m. came to visit her , it was told by the damsel to several persons in the family , that l. m. had taken off that charm , of her being seiz'd with fits when looking any of her tormentors in the face , but withal that she had laid on another it is room ▪ to wit , that as soon as the damsel should by words confer with any of her tormentors , so soon should she be seiz'd ▪ with a fit , which accordingly w●… verified when she spoke to l. m. or i. g. on tuesday march d , the damsel being asleep in the bed with her mother about three a clock in the morning was on a sudden awakned ( having for sometime struggled in her sleep ) in great fear and consternation , and being seiz'd with her blind and deaf fits , took fast hold of her mother , declaring to her father and her , that the devil was standing near the bed assaulting her , upon which she try'd out suddenly : god almighty keep me from thy meetings . i 'll die rather then go to them , i 'll never thorow the grace of god renounce my baptism ; for i 'll certainly go to hell if i do it : thou sayest i 'll go to hell however , because i am a great sinner ; but i believe what the word of god sayeth , tho i have many sins ; yet the blood of christ cleanseth from all sin , and i will not add that great wickedness to my other sins , which thou art tempting me too . it s no wonder thou lie to me seeing thou wast bold to lie i●… gods face . i know thou art a liar from the beginning ; and the red coat thou promisest me , i know thou canst not perform it . and altho i should never recover , i 'm resolv'd never to renounce my baptism , it is god who hath kept me all this time from being a witch , and i trust he will yet by his grace keep me , not because of any thing in me , but of his own great mercy , and that he who hath kept me hitherto from being devoured by thee , i hope will yet keep me . this conference continued near the space of an hour , her father , mother and others being ●…ar witnesses to the same . and after recovery the damsel declared that it was the devil , who ( in the ape of a naked man in a shirt , having much hair upon his hands and his face , like swines bristles ) had appear'd to her tempting her as aforesaid . until sabbath following she continued in the light fit , but withal every morning and evening was still seiz'd with her sore fits , and continued still to name m. m. ( who was at this time set at liberty ) the forementioned l. m. e. t. an highland woman , and others as being her tormentors . it is fit to be observed here , that m. m. being set at liberty upon bail , the very day after she went home , she again appear'd to the damsel tormenting her in her fits , and continued so to do several days , particularly on the saturday march after she was set at liberty : on which day the damsel was heard name her in her fits , and saying to her , wilt thou say god help me poor mad or foolish child as thou saidst the other day before the iudges ? art thou wishing the devil to take me ? where is the habit thou wast cloathed with the other day ? on ●…abbath morning , march . the damsel throw god's great mercy towards her , was perfectly recovered from all her fits , and became as well , sensible and composed as ever . if it be questioned , how the truth of all these strange things is attested ▪ there is none of those particulars , but had the witnesses names inserted at the end of every particular paragraph , and were attested before the commissioners for enquiry at renfrew , by the subscriptions of the respective witnesses . but seeing the placing of them so now , would have occasioned the repetition of several persons names and made the narrative swell too much ; therefore we judg'd it fittest to set down the names of the chief witnesses altogether at the end of the narrative ; and the rather because those things fell not out in a private corner ; but thousands in this countery have been eye and ear witnesses of 'em , and been fully convinced of a diabolical hand in the affliction of the damsel : we shall only here make mention of a few , viz , besides the father , mother , grand-mother , and nearest relations of the damsel , and servants of the family , who were always present with her in her fits : such of the commissioners for inquiry , and of justiciary as had occasion to be on the place of the events , were as follow , the lord bantyre , mr. francis montgomery of giffen , sir iohn maxwell of pollock , sir iohn houston of houston , alexander porterfield of porterfield , the laird of black-hall younger ▪ the laird of glandeertone , the laird of craigens , porterfield of ●…ullwood , iohn alexander of black-house , mr. semple sheriff of renfrew : and several other honourable persons of good sense and quality as the earl of marshal●… , the laird of orbiston , the laird of killmarnock , the laird of meldrum , the lairds of bishopton elder and younger , gavin , cochran of craigmure , william denneston of colgrain , dr. mathew brisben , &c. and several ministers , who kept days of humiliation and prayer weekly in the family , and sometimes in the parish-church with the congregation , viz. mr. iames hutchison , minister of the gospel at killelan , mr. patrick simson of renfrew , mr. iames stirling of kilbarchan , mr. thomas blachwal of paisly , mr. iames brisban of kilmacolme , mr robert taylor of houston ; and of neighbouring presbytries , mr. neill gillies , mr. iames brown , mr. iohn gray ministers of glasgow , while the damsel was there ; mr. iohn ritchie minister of old kilpatrick , mr. alexander king of bonui●… , mr. archibald wallace of cardross , mr. iohn a●…son of drymmen , mr. andrew turner minister of the place , who was frequently there : besides mr. menzies of cammo , and mr. grant of cullen , advocates ; who were eye and ear-witnesses to several important passages of the damsels affliction , and the convincing evidences of its flowing from the operation of the devil , and his instruments . the truth whereof is further demonstrated by the progress and issue of the tryal , at which were present , at several occasions , not only sir iohn hamiltoun of halcraig , one of the senators of the colledge of justice , sir iohn shaw of greenock , commissar smollet of bonnill , mr. iames stewart advocat , who were concerned in the commission with the others before mentioned : but also a great confluence of several of the nobility and gentry out of the countrey , such as the earl of glencairn , the lord killmares , the lord semple , &c. the report made by the commissioners appointed by his majest's privy-council for enquiry : and of the confession of elizabeth anderson , james lindsay , and thomas lindsay ; transmitted by those commissioners to the council , before granting of the commission for a trial . to which is subjoyned , the sum of the confessions of margaret and jannet rogers , who did confess ( during the tryal ) of the rest , beyond expectation . together also with an account of the confession and death of john reid , who made a discovery agreeable to that of the former witnesses , after the trial was over . and , in the last place , there are added some passages which fell out at the execution of the seven witches who were condemned . the commissioners ▪ for enquiry having met at bargarran in february , did chose the lord blantyre for chairman , and took the confession of elizabeth anderson , aged about years , as follows . that about seven years ago the stayed with iean fultoun her grand-mother , and playing about the door , she saw a black grim man go into her grand-mothers house : after which , her grand-mother came to the door , called her in , and desired her to take the gentleman ( as she nam'd him ) by the hand ; which she did , but finding it very cold , became affraid ; and immediately he ●…anish'd . about a month after , her grand-mother and she being in the house together , the said gentleman ( whom she then suspected to be the devil ) appeared to them , and fell a talking with her grand-mother ▪ and whispering in one anothers ears : upon which , the grand-mother desired her to take him by the hand , being a friend of hers ; but elizabeth refusing , her grand-mother threatned , that she should have none of the cloaths promised her unless she would obey : yet elizabeth withstood , saying , the lord be between me and him ; whereupon he went away in a flight , but she knew not how . elizabeth was not troubled for a long time after , till her father desiring her to go with him a begging through the countrey ; and ●…e saying , that she needed not seek her meat , seeing she might have work ; her father pressed her to go along with him , and took her to a heath in kilmacome , where were gathered together , at that and other subsequent meetings , katharine campbel , margaret fulton ( her grand aunt ) margaret lang , iohn reid , smith ; margaret and ianet rodgers , the three lindsays ( besides the two confessing ones , ) &c. and several others whom she did not know , and the foresaid gentleman with them ; he came to her the said elizabeth , bidding her renounce her baptism , promising that if she would consent thereunto , she should have better meat and clothes , and not need to beg. but ( as she declared ) she would not consent . then he enquired what brought her thither ? she answered , that she came with her father : whereupon the devil and her father went and talked together apart , but she knew not what . she declares , that in that meeting was conserted the tormenting of mr. william fleeming minister of innerkipp's childe . the said elizabeth confesses she was at another meeting with that crew above the town of kilpatrick , with the foresaid gentleman , whom they called their lord : and that she went with her father to the ferrie-boat of erskin ; where the devil , with the rest of the band , overturn'd the boat , and drowned the laird of bridghouse , and the ferriman of erskine , with several particular circumstances concerning that affair , as that some of the crew would have saved the ferriman , but one of them , viz. his mother-in-law gainstood it , because he had expelled her out of his house a little while before the meeting . she acknowledges she was present with them at the destroying of william montgomeries child , by strangling it with a sea handkerch ; that having entered the house , they lighted a candle which was somewhat blewish , and agnes naismith saying , what if the people awake , margaret fulton replyed , ye need not fear : she also declares , that about five weeks before the date , her father brought her on foot to bargarran's orchard , into which they entred by a breach in the wall , and there were present the persons before-named , &c. and the devil , who told them , that no body would seem them , at which they laugh'd . at this meeting , they , with their lord , contriv'd the destruction of christian shaw : some being for stobbing her with a a rappier , others for hanging her with a cord , a third sort for choaking her , and some intended to have her out of the house to destroy her ; but fearing they might be taken before the next meeting , their lord ( as they call'd him ) gave them a piece of an unchristened child's liver to eat ; ( but the deponent , and the other two confessers avoided the eating of it ) telling them , that though they were apprehended , they should never confess , which would prevent an effectual discovery : and further , several of them being affraid that the deponent would confess , and discover them , as she had formerly done her grand-mother , they threatned to tear her in pieces if she did so ; and particularly margaret laing threatned her most . after two hours , or thereabouts , they disappeared and flew away , except the deponent , who went home on her foot. she confesses likewise , that one night her father raised her out of her bed , and going to the river side , took her on his back , and flew with her over ; from whence they went on foot to dunbritton , and in mr. iohn hardy , the ministers yard the crew and their lord being met , they formed the picture of mr. hardy , and dabbed it full of pins , and having put it amongst water and ale mixed together , roasted it on a spit at a fire , &c. after which her father and she returned in the same manner as they went. iames lindsay , ( aged years ) declares , that one day he met with the deceast ▪ iean fulton his grand-mother , at her own house , where she took from him a little round cap , and a plack , or ⅓ of a penny ; at which being vexed , he required them from her again , and she refusing to restore them , he called her an old witch , and ran away ; upon which she followed him , and cryed , that she would meet him with a vengeance . about three days after , being a begging in the countrey , he met his grand-mother with a black grim man , whom she desired him to take by the hand , which he did , but found it exceeding cold , and his own hand mightily squeezed ; whereupon the said gentleman ( as she termed him ) asked the deponent if he would serve him , and he should have a coat , hat , and several other things ; to which iames answer'd , yes , 〈◊〉 do it : and after this , the foresaid gentleman ( whom the deponent knew afterward to be the devil ) and his grand-mother went away , but knows not how . he acknowledges he was frequently after at meetings with the devil and witches , particularly those mentioned in elizabeth andersons confessions : that their lord came to iames at the first publick meeting , took him by the hand , and for●…d him to discover : that they contrived before hand at the said meeting the drowning of brighouse , and concurrs with elizabeth anderson , as to the design of saving the ferriman , which his mother in law did divert . he being examined , declared he did not see i. k. and i. w. at the committing of the foresaid fact : ( and indeed they were then in prison ; that they with a cord strangled mathew park 's child ; and that the person who waited on the child finding it stifled , cryed out mathew , mathew , the child is dead : elizabeth anderson concurrs in this particular ; and tells that when they had done , they took the cord with them . he declares , that he was present at strangling william montgomeries child with a sea handkerchief , and heard agnes naismith say draw the ●…not . that about five weeks since he was carryed to them in bargarrans orchard , and concurrs with elizabeth anderson in what was treated there , as to the destroying christian shaw , and the charm against confessing . he likeways acknowledges the meeting in dunbritton about mr. hardy : and that he has several times appeared to christian shaw both in glasgow and bargarran , with the rest that tormented her , and put in her mouth coal cinders , bones , hay , hair , sticks , &c. intending thereby to choak her : that he and they did oft-times prick and stob her in the following manner , viz. he had a needle which if he put in his cloaths , her body would be pricked and stobed in that place where he fixt the needle , and if he put it in his hair , that part of her head would be tormented : that he saw her void the pins they had put in , on which time he cryed out in these words , help i. d. who was also then present : that when the ministers began to pray in bargarrens house at several occasions , the devil and they immediatly went away , &c. thomas lindsay being under age , declares that the same iean fulton his grand-mother awaked him one night out of his bed , and caused him to take a black grim gentleman ( as she called him ) by the hand ; which he felt to be cold : and who having enquired if thomas would serve him and be his man , and he would give him a red coat , he consented : and the gentleman ( whom he knew afterwards to be the devil ) pinch'd him in the neck which continued sore for ten days . that one day after his grand-mothers decease , coming by her house , he thought she appeared to him stroaking his head , and desiring him to be a good servant to the gentleman to whom she had given him , and forbid him to reveal it . he declares , that one night lying in bed in the house of one robert shaw , he was awaked out of his sleep and carried as if he had flew to mathew parks house , where were present the particular persons named by him , and concurrs as to the manner of strangling of the child with iames lindsay his brother : and that another night being in the house of walter alexander , he was brought to the strangling of william montgomeries child , and agrees likeways in the manner of it with his brother ; only he sayes the sea-handkerchief with which they committed the fact was ●…pecled . he likewise concurrs as to the meeting in bararrans orchard about five weeks ago , and in what was acted there . as also about mr. hardy ; with this addition , that he himself turned the spit on which the picture was roasted , &c. it is to be observed , that as the three confessers were apprehended seperatly upon several occasions , so ( after their obstinacy to discover was abated ) they made these confessions in several distinct places without communication , without knowledge of one anothers confessions . the commissioners examined them by other trying questions that were new , on purpose to make experiment of their agreement , or disagreement : but still found them to agree in , the matters of fact ( declared by them , ) particularly in strangling of the children , the death of the minister , the drowning of those in the boat , and the tormenting of bargarrans daughter . the commissioners did also confront them both with christian shaw the afflicted girl , and the other persons accused ( whom they had caused to be apprehended ) and both the girl and the confessers did accuse them to their faces , and convince them by circumstances with great steddiness and agreement , tho separatly brought in . the commissioners did also try some experiments about the girls falling in fits on the approach of the accused , as is exprest in the narrative ; and examined her , with those who were commonly about her , as to the particulars of her sufferings : they tryed to cause her to write ( since she could not speak ) the name of a person , whom she first called margaret , or pinch maggie , and asserted to be one of her chief tormenters . but , upon writing margaret , and the letter l. of her sirname , the girl was presently taken with a fearful convulsion , the pen was struck out of her hand , and she fell dead , with heavier groans than ordinary : after her recovery , some ministers shew'd her a passage of the bible , but assoon as she attempted to cast her eyes on it , she fell into vehement pangs ; but one of the commissioners ordering the book to be closed , she immediately came to her self , &c. in the last place , the commissioners called before them those persons who had signed the passages of the several days in the written journal of the girles sufferings ; and , having examined them upon it , transmitted the same , with the declarations of the three confessers , and several of the passages that occurred in the precognition , to his majestys privy council , by whom they were appointed to enquire into the matter . besides all this , the signed attestations of dr. mathew brisbane , physician , and mr. henry marshall apothecary in glasgow , did very much influence them to the belief of an extraordinary cause of those things that befel katharine shaw. the doctor's attestation . about the th or th of october last , the lady bargarran brought a daughter of hers , a child of eleven years old , or thereabouts , to glasgow , to take advice of physicians concerning her . when i was first brought to her , i could hardly be perswaded there was any need of me , or any man else of my profession ; the child appeared so brisk , and vigorous in motion , so cheerful , and of so florid and good a colour , and , in a word , to outward appearance , every way healthful ; but , it was not long , till i found my self obliged to alter my thoughts of her ; for , i had not been above eight or ten minutes in the room by her , till she arose from her seat , and acquainted the company , that she was instantly to be seized with a fit ; and so being straightway carryed to bed , i observed a considerable stiffness and distention in her left hypocondre , which falling in a tryce , she was taken with horrid convulsive motions in most parts of her body , but her back and neck especially ; this was accompany'd with heavy groans at first , which , so soon as she was able to frame words , were converted into a kind of expostulatory murmuring against some women , two whereof she always named ; one of them she called nasmith , ( as i remember , ) and the other campbel : all these symptoms , i thought , were very reduceable to the effects of hypocondrick melancholy ; and therefore putting her in such a course , as i thought proper , against that kind of malady , i was in absolute security , as to her case ; the child having continued free from all the above-mentioned symptoms , for the space , i think , of a week in this town , and some eight or ten days more in the countrey . and i was perfectly surprized , when a friend of the lady bargarrans told me , that the child was returned to town again , and worse than ever ; for now she was in great hazard of being choaked with mouthfulls of hair , which she apprehended the women above-named to be pressing down her throat , had not she her self pulled it out . having read many such stories in authours , and heard the like from other hands too , but never seen any such thing , i was the more earnest to see the child again ; and , for some weeks that she stayed in this place , i was frequently with her , observed her narrowly , and was confident she had no humane correspondent to subminister the straw , wool , sinders , hay , feathers , and such like trash to her ; all which , upon several occasions , i have seen her pull out of her mouth in considerable quantities , sometimes after several fits , and at other times , without any fit at all , while she was discoursing with us ; and , for the most part , she pulled out all these things , without being wet in the least ; nay , rather , as if they had been dryed with care and art : for one time , as i remember , when i was discoursing with her , and she with me , she gave me a sinder out of her mouth , not only dry , but actually hot , much above the degree of the natural warmth of a humane body . during the time she was thus exercis'd , though she had daily , not only light convulsive motioos , but two strange convulsions , such as we call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to a high degree and rigidity of the whole body ; yet she fancyed , as at other times , she saw many such people , as have been already named , about her ; but the voiding , or rather pulling out of the things above named , did no sooner cease , but , as in all her fits , when she was able to speak , she constanstantly cry'd out , that they were pinching , or pricking her : those fits were both more severe , and more frequent than before , and followed with an alienation of mind for some time . i have seen her too when otherwise , free of all fits , suddenly seiz'd with dumbness , her tongue , being strangely contracted , that it appeared , to her self , as she expressed it , as if people were drawing it down her throat . this i declare on conscience , and in most solemn manner , is what i have seen and handled ; and , were it not for the haires , hay , straw , and other things , toto genere , contrary to humane nature , i should not despair to reduce all the other symptomes to their proper classes in the catalogue of humane diseases ▪ written and signed at glasgow the thirty first day of december , . by me , sic subscribitur , a. brisben , m. d. the declaration of mr. henry marshall , apothecary . being desired by john shaw of bargarran , to declare what i know of his daughter christian's condition , i do it as follows . about the latter end of october last , she was brought hither to have dr. brisbens advice about her health , and i was imployed as apothecary . the child was about eleven years of age , of a good habit of body , as far as i could judge ; but now and then fell into convulsions , swoons , and a little lightness of head ; and when recovered , out of those fits , she would be perfectly well again ; and , by the use of the means the dr. prescribed , she seemed to be free of her distemper : whereupon she was taken back to the country ; but , had not been long there , till she became worse then before , and was sent hither again to be under the doctors care ; and after her fits she took out of her mouth , without any pressure , or vomiting , tufts of hair , straw long , and folded together , burnt coals , pieces of bones , leather , chips of timber , and several other things , divers of which she hath taken out of her mouth and given to me , while we were conversing together : and upon the th of november last , when i went to see her , i found her in a swoon , whereinto she had fallen just as i came to the house : when she had lain so for some time , she arose in a great rage , beat all about her , frowning with her countenance , and uttering a great deal of unknown language in an angry manner : then she put the tuft of a highland belt , with which she was girt , into her mouth , and pulled , with her hand , so hard , that if we had not cut the belt with a knife , she had , in all probability , drawn out her teeth ; whereupon she tore the tuft all to pieces with her teeth , and afterward fell a tearing her cloathes , and her shooes which she pulled off , and every thing she could get into her hands ; then she fell into a dumb fit , as she termed it , wherein all her body was so convelled and distorted , that i endeavoured to put her armes into a better posture , but found them so stiff , that i could not bring them to their natural posture without breaking them : then she arose out of that fit , and went up and down the room , and would have gone through the wall , muttering the former unknown language ; after this she fell headlong upon the ground , as if she had been thrown down with violence , where she lay for some time as dead , but afterward arose , as if she had been somewhat recovered , and fell a reasoning , very distinctly , thus ; ketie , what a●…eth thee at me , i am sure i never did thee wrong ? why should thou trouble me ? come , let us agree , let there be no more difference between us : and putting out her hands , as if she would take her by the hand , said , let us shake hands together : then pulling in her hand again , she said , well , ketie , i cannot help it , you will not agree with me : and having pronounced those words , immediately she fell into another fit , and swoon'd ; and out of that into another rage , wherein she bit her own fingers , and tore her hands upon pins that were in her cloathes ; after which she appeared angry , pulled out all the pins , and threw them away . and after she had been thus tortured for more then half an hour , without any intermission , she recovered , and became perfectly well : whereupon i asked her , how she was ? to which she reply'd ; she had just now a very bad fit , for , during the fit , she knew no body , neither took any notice of me , though i moved her body , and spoke often to her : i asked her again , what she saw in her fits ? she replyed , i saw katherine cambel , agnes nasmith , alexander anderson , and others that she did not know . i enquired again , what katharine cambel was doing ? she told me , she was going to thrust a sword into her side , which made her so desirous to be agreed with her : and when she had told me this , instantly she fell into another swoon , and repeated all that was said before , and much more , which i have partly forgot : and in each of those two fits she continued halfe an hour . all this i declare upon conscience , and in most solemn manner , to be a truth ; in testimony whereof , i have writ and subscribed this at glasgow , the first day of ianuary , ●… . sic subscribitur , henry marshall . while the trial was depending ianet and margaret rodgers confessed in this manner , the commissioners had adjourned to two several times ; and though they were to meet on the third , yet it was not expected that they would proceed till providence should make the guilt of the prisoners appear by the further testimonies of those who might confess ; but on the very morning before they were to meet the third time , those two women above mention'd , confessed which was a surprize to every one that came to attend the court , since these women were not formerly taken notice of as others were ; but confessed of their own free motion without any persons desiring it , nor had they such means of instruction as were administred to others : their confessions agreed as to the meetings and the things acted in them with those of the three former , and the other evidences of visible matters of fact : only they were so punctual as to name some of the indited persons whom they did not see at those rendevouzes ; and great care was taken to compare their testimonies with what had been already discovered , and to try their certain knowledge by new questions when they were separated from one another , &c. thus the whole matter was so evident that the commissioners , with the general approbation of the most intelligent men of the countery , who came to attend the court , approv'd the going on of the process , and bringing seven of the best known criminals , ( for whom an advocat appeared ) to trial ; accordingly there were some days allowed for the persons indited to give in their informations upon the finding of the bill : and at the term , there was much time spent in producing wittnesses , an account whereof is referred to another place . upon the th . of may . after trial of the seven witches , there is an attestation subscribed by m. patrick simson minister of renfrew , walter scot baily there , &c. of this import , iohn reid smith at inchennan prisoner , did in presence of the said persons and some others , declare , that about a year ago the devil ( whom he knew to be such thereafter ) appeared to him when he was travelling in the night time , but spoke none to him at the first encounter . at the second appearance he gave him a bite or nipp in his loyn ; which he found painful for a fortnight . that the third time he appeared to him as a black man , &c. desired him to engage in his service upon assurance of getting riches and comfort in the world ; and that he should not want any thing that he would ask in the devils name : and then he renounced his baptism , putting the one hand to the crown of his head , and the other to the sole of his foot ; thereby giving himself up to satans service : after which the pain of the bite or nipp ceased . he told that hitherto there was none others present with them ; but afterwards he was at several mettings , particularly that in bargarrans yard , about the time when there was a fast for christian skaw , where the devil appeared in the same kind of garb as he first appeared to him , and they consulted christians death either by worrieing or drowning her in the well ; and the devil said , he should warrand them , that they should neither be heard , seen , nor confess , to which end he gave every one of them a bit of flesh , that the deponent got one of them , but let it fall , and did not eat it . he afterwards own'd this confession in presence of the laird of iordanhill , the minister , mr. andrew cochran town clark , and baily paterson ; and being enquired at by iordanhill how they were advertised of their meetings , he said that ordinarly at their meetings the time of the next was appointed ; but for particular warning there appeared a black dog with a chain about his neck , who tinkling it , they were to follow , &c. and being enquired at by the minister if he did now wholly renounce the devil ( for he had formerly told how satan had not performed his promise ) and give himself to jesus christ , and desire to find mercy of god through him : he assented thereunto . it is to be observed that john reid after his confession had called out of the prison window , desiring baily scott to keep that old body angus forrester , who had been his fellow prisoner , closs and secure ; whereupon the company asked john when they were leaving him on friday night the th . of may , whether he desired company or would be afraid alone , he said he had no fear of any thing : so being left till saturday in the forenoon , he was found in this posture , viz. sitting upon a stool which was on the hearth of the chimney , with his feet on the floor and his body straight upward , his shoulders touching the lintel of the chimney , but his neck tyed with his own neck-cloath ( whereof the knot was behind ) to a small stick thrust into a hole above the lintel of the chimney , upon which the company , and especially iohn campbel a chyrurgeon who was called , thought at first in respect of his being in an ordinary posture of sitting , and the neck-cloath not having any drawn knot , but an ordinary one which was not very strait , and the sticks not having the strength to bear the weight of his body or the struggle ; that he had not been quite dead ; but finding it otherways , and that he was in such a situation that he could not have been the actor thereof himself , concluded that some extraordinary agent had done it , especially considering that the door of the room was secured , and that there was a board set over the window which was not there the night before when they left him . we shall add but little as to what past at the execution of the seven witches , because there is no subscribed attestation concerning it : and the design of ▪ the publisher is , to advance nothing but what stands warranted by testimonies of known credit beyond contradiction . yet this is well known , that when they were going to the stake , one of the lindsays was over-heard to say to the other , now , brother , it is high time that we should confess , since our keeping it up will serve us to no purpose , or the like expression ; to which the other answered , that they should never do that , &c. and margaret lang , before execution , own'd , that when the devil first appeared , she knew him not to be such till afterwards ; that he gave her the insensible marks found upon her body : she yielded to engage her self in his service by a covenant ; and besides publick meetings , she had been above times in private conferences with him . being asked by a near relation of her own , as to her being in bargarrans house , tormenting christian shaw , she answered in these words ; the devil having an absolute power and dominion over me , carryed my shape whither he would : and it is known how she confessed unnatural lust , and profound hypocrisy , &c. though truely it did appear from her mein , and other circumstances , that these things dropped from her at seasons , when natural ingenuity , and the vigour of truth got the ascendant over the devil . so agnes nasmith , &c. frequently told the minister , that their hearts and tongues were bound up in such a manner , that they could not express what they would : and sometimes it appear'd by ocular inspection of their visage , that convulsive-damps did seize their heads , when they attempted to make any such discovery . there are two remarkable instances in the case of katharine campbel , who was the chief instrument and author of the girles trouble , viz. an eminent minister discoursing , before reputable witnesses , to the said katharine , and enquiring , if she did not distinctly remember the godly counsels , and gracious admonitions , which christian shaw , while in a fit , ( mention'd in the narrative , ) gave her at a certain time ? and instancing some particulars thereof ; she answer'd , with heavy groans , yes , i remember . but being asked , why she would not confess the rest , as well as that passage ? and finding her self thereby to be caught , she began to retract , and seemed to be confounded . this happen'd while she was in prison , before the tryal : and after it , in presence of several witnesses , she spoke these words , that the doom pronounced on her was most just , and that she could not free her self of witchcraft : but , upon such attempts , she fell down dead , strangely distended , and that six or seven times successively , with a suddenness , that was both surprising and convincing to the spectators : on which occasion it was observed , that immediately before her falling into those fits , and upon her essaying to speak , when things were charged home to her conscience ; her mouth seemed to be contracted , and she uttered heavy moans ; whereupon convulsions followed ; and after rising out of them , she turned more obstinate and inflexible : and whenever there was any appearance of her being more plyant , the foresaid fits did overtake her . i shall only add some passages which were omitted in the narrative , but are attested by some of the same persons that were witnesses to the other matters mentioned therein . particularly , the girle declares , that in one of her conflicts with the devil , he told her , how a certain minister ( for whom she had a special respect ) did compile his sermons throughout the week ; what books he chiefly made use of ; and several other matters , as to his method of study in his closet , that no mortal could know by ordinary means : by which , no doubt , satan did partly design ( though by a very false argument ) to raise the esteem of books above sermons collected out of them : cencealing , in the mean time , both the gift of improving helps , and the blessing promised to the hearer of the word preacht . when the lady bargarran received the two pieces of red cloath , that the girl had torn from one of the witches sleeves , as is before-mentioned ; she locked 'em up , and kept the key : notwithstanding which caution some friends having come to visit the girle , and being destrous to see the said pieces of cloath ; she being in one of her fits , laughed , and said . that her mother needed not to s●…ek for them in the place where they were locked up ; the witches having taken them away , and laid them in a corner of the cellar ; and accordingly being searched for , they were found in the particular place she mentioned . another such passage happened to a friend of bargarrans , who went with him to sollicit a commission from the council : for he having brought along with him those pieces of cloth , buttoned up in his pocket , and secured them , as he thought , they were missing in the morning ; but , after search , found at a good distance from his pocket , though no visible thing had been in the room to open it , or carry them off . in the last place it is to be observed , that the young girl , christian shaw , discovers a great sagacity in her discourse and observationss , but accompanyed with extraordinary modesty : she observed , among other things , that the doors and windows did open and shut upon the entry of the witches , and that there was , at no time , such a number of them about her , as the room might not very well contain , with the visible persons that were present therein : she observed them to shift their place with a great agility , when any other came into it , or offer'd to attacque them , upon her pointing where they were : and she often averred from the instance of the spirit that spoke to her above her head , told their names , and gave her other means of discovering of them , &c. that satan does often contrive their ruine , by the most undiscernible methods he can ; because , if he did it openly , it would scare others from engaging with so faithless a master , &c. two letters , giving an account of what appeared most material or curious in the tryal of the seven witches . the truth of the strange things mentioned in the preceeding narrative was at first carefully searched into only by private persons : but at last became so notorious , that , upon application founded on a journal of those extraordinary events , and attested by many of the gentry in the country ; the privy council gave a commission for enquiring into it . the honourable persons to whom this was recommended , did , with great impartiality and exactness , make a report : which influenc'd the government to order the execution of justice on some of those witches , who otherways , might have lurked without being discovered . for , hereupon , the council directed a second commission , for trial of those who appeared to them to be most charged by the evidence of the witnesses , produc'd on the first commission . several of the judges were not only persons of honour , but also of singular knowledge and experience , and accordingly proceeded with extraordinary caution , and were so far from precipitancy in the affair , that , after several diets of court they adjourned to a long term , that , in the mean time , the prisoners might be provided of advocates . accordingly an advocate appeared for them , and managed their defence with all the accuracy that could be expected . there were above twenty hours imployed , at one diet , in examination of witnesses : and the jury being shut up spent about six hours in comparing the evidence : whereupon seven of the most notorious criminals were convicted and condemned . the crimes charg'd and proven against them , were not meer spectral imaginations ; but obvious and plain matter of fact : viz. the murders of some children , and persons of age ; and the torturing of several parsons , particularly bargarran's daughter : and both these , not at a distance , but contiguously by natural means of cords , pins , and the like . besides the other ordinary works of witchcraft , such as renouncing baptism , entering in contract with , and adoring the devil in a corporal shape , &c. which could not but be sustained as sufficient ground for a trial in scotland , since there is an express statute parl. . act. . queen mary ordering such persons to be put to death . to make the probation the more convincing , it was adduced orderly in three periods . the first consisted of unsuspected witnesses , who proved facts : from whence it was necessarly inferred , that there was witchcraft in the case . the second did include , also unexceptionable witnesses , who deponed upon facts ; which made it probable , if not necessary , that the persons indited were the witches . the third did comprehend six positive testimonies , of those who did see and hear the witches committing the crimes charged in the inditement . the only valuable subject of debate , was as to the import of these last testimonies ; five whereof were by confessants , who had been at the meetings in which the crimes were committed , and the sixth of bargarran's daughter , who was one of the persons afflicted . the antecedent part of the probation was by witnesses beyond exception ; and the judges upon a long debate did fustain four of these six only cum nota , and two of them to be examined without oath . so nice were they in favour of the criminals lives , since some of these witnesses might have been admitted in such a crime without any quality ▪ by the most scrupulous judicatory in europe . but all things were carried on in this procedures with tenderness and moderation : for even the advocates , who were sent to prosecute the enditement by his majesty's council and advocate , did not act with the byass of partys ; but on the contrary , shewed an equal concern to have the accused persons absolved , if it could be found compatible with justice . this is the reason for which the publisher doubts not , but the two following letters ( one whereof gives an abridgment of the advocates speech to the jury , and the other , of their answers to the objections against the confessant witnesses ) will afford a satisfying view of the chiefest part , of the trial : since the objections which were , or might have been made are therein stated and answered , or anticipated and prevented ; and the intended brevity would not premit to print at this time the whole process , which being extant upon record , any who are cautious may have easy access thereunto . there is scarce any need to take notice of a late scurrilous pamphlet , that has been printed in england , pretending to give an account of those proceedings : for any who reads it may easily find , that the author has been either fool or knave , or both , there being neither good language , sense nor truth in the most part of it . the first letter . sir , you having told me , that the odd passages which occur in the west , have put many of your neighbours and your self , upon reading all the books you can get that treat of witchcraft : and therefore desired me to transmit to you my observations at the trial : i shall not prepossess your opinion by giving them in my own form ; but herein i send to you the exactest copy of the advocates speech to the jury that i could obtain ; and by the next post you shall have something more curious : viz. a collection of their answers to the objections against the six last witnesses , that were adduced for concluding the proof : having these , you will want little that could be agreeable to such an accurat pallat as yours is . the speeches to the jury were ▪ to this effect . good men of the iury ; you having sitten above twenty hours in hearing the evidence : and being now to be inclosed , where , its like , you will take no small time to re-consider and compare it : we shall not detain you with summing up the same in particular ; but shall only suggest some things , whereof it is fit you take special notice in your perusal of it : viz. st . the nature of your own power , and the management thereof . dly . the object of this power which lies before you ; wherein you are to consider , in the first place , whether or not there has been witchcraft in the crimes libelled ? and , in the next place , whether or not these prisoners are the witches ? as to your power , it is certain , that you are both judges and witnesses , by the opinion of our lawyers and custom : therefore you are called out of the neighbourhood , as presumed best to know the quality of the prisoners , and the notoriety of their guilt or innocence . your oath is , that you shall all truth tell , and no truth conceal ; which does plainly imply , that you are to condemn or absolve , according to your own conscience . such is the excellent constitution of juries in england : and ought to hold more specially in thi●… circumstantiat ●…ase , where there is such a chain of different kinds of probation concurring against the same prisoners , as will appear by the review thereof in its proper place . we are not to press you with the ordinary severity of threatning an assyse of error , in case you should absolve ; but wholly leave you to the conduct of god and your own consciences , and desire that you proceed with all the care of the prisoners lives that is possible for you , as the honourable judges have set to you a desirable pattern , by their great caution in this matter . as to the probation it self ; you see , that it is divided into three parts , viz. the extraordinariness of the crimes : the probability of the concurring circumstances : and the clearness of the positive probation . as to the first part , the crimes , or corpora delicti , are proven by unexceptionable witnesses , to have fallen out in such an odd and extraordinary manner , that it points out some other cause , than the ordinary course of nature , to have produced those effects . for clearing of this , particularly in relation to the torments of bargarran's daughter , you may consider not only the extraordinary things that could not proceed from a natural disease , which ly proven before you ; but also several other matters of fact , which is notorious ; have been seen by some of your selves , and ly here in a journal of her sufferings : every article whereof is attested by the subscriptions of persons of entire credit , before the honourable commissioners appointed by his majesty's privy council , for making enquiry into the matter . this girl 's throwing out of hair , pins , and coals of greater heat than that of her body or blood ; as also so dry , that they appeared not to have come out of her stomack ; nor had she any press of vomiting at the time , that she declared the same to have been put in her mouth by her tormenters : is deponed by doctor brisban , in his opinion not to proceed from a natural cause . she was not tormented by any of the criminals after their imprisonment : except two nights by katharine campbell ; which being a surprise , it was thereafter discovered , that these two nights the jaylor's wife had let out katharine campbell to spin in her house . she having been speaking to one of her tormenters as present ( tho' invisible to the by-standers ) and asking how her tormenter had got those clouted red sleeves ; she suddenly gets up , takes hold of them , the company heard the noise of the cloaths tearing , and she pulls away two pieces of red cloth , which all the by-standers beheld with amazement in her hands : nor was there any other piece of this kind of cloth to be found in the room at that time . she told , that her tormentors were giving her a glass of sack , an orange pile , &c. ( thereby ensnaring her to accept of a favour from them ) and accordingly she was seen to move her lips , and to have the orange-pile betwixt her teeth ; tho' there was no visible hand that could have done it . she advertised before-hand , that one of her tormentors was to be at the door at a particular hour : and that another of them was in the kitchin ; before any did tell her thereof ▪ which accordingly fell out : and these being brought to her presence , became obnoxious to the ordinary means of discovery . when her glove fell down from her , at a time that several persons were about her : it was lifted up again by a hand invisible to them . she was not only transported throw the hall and down stairs , without perceiving her feet to touch the ground : but also was hurried in a flight up stairs : and when a minister endeavoured to retain her ; he found a sensible weight , besides her own strength drawing her from him . when she complained , that her tormenters had bitten and scratched her ; the marks of the nails and teeth were seen upon her skin , with blood and spittle : about the wounds , which were above twenty four ; while neither her own , or any others teeth that were visible , could have done it . she was most vehemently distorted , upon attempting to tell , or even to write the names of her tormenters : yet that ceased as to any of them , how soon that person was accused by any other , and particularly she had liberty , after many painful attempts , to accuse margaret laing , so soon as the charm of hair to restrain her ( which margaret had left behind the door ) was found and burnt ; the girl having told it to have been lost , as mentioned in the depositions . she did throw out no more hair after the finding and burning of a ball of hair , of the same colour and kind with that thrown out by the girle ( in katharine campbell's pocket ) with pins in it . after agnes nasmith had prayed for her , she did appear to her , but not torment her . she foretold , that her tormenters had conserted to throw her , at a certain hour , in a fit , ( whereof they did forewarn her , on design to fright her , to renounce her baptism by the terror ) and had left one of their number to execute it : and accordingly there was a woman with a red-coat seen under a tree in the orchard , and the torment was brought on at the time appointed . when she told , that there was something tormenting her under ▪ the cloaths ; the spectators saw the bed-cloaths move in an extraordinary manner , after the girle had been raised out of them . when she complained that she was beaten : the by-standers heard the noise of the strokes . she cried out at a time , that her thigh was hurt : and one of the company having searched her pocket , found a knife ; but unfolded : however , having folded up the same , and put it in a second time , she cries out a-new : and , upon the second search , ( though secured by the spring ) it is found open , to the great wonder of the beholders ; since they did watch , that no visible thing could have possibly opened it . she told of a charm under the bed : and accordingly it was found in the shape of an egg , which melted away being put into the fire : she told also , that her sister that was boarded abroad , had charms put above her in the house , and would not recover of the decaying sickness till she were brought out of it : and accordingly , the child being brought home , straightway recovered . she told of their meeting in the yeard of bargarran , for consulting about the destroying of her : and accordingly the confessants have deponed , that they did meet and consult her ruine in that place . the story about her telling , that the commissioners , though at three miles distance , had granted a warrant to the sheriff , to apprehend one of her tormenters : her giving so perfect an account of the sheriff , and of mr. guthrie who was with him , while her eyes were cieled and fast : her being in excessive torments ( as she fore-told till that person was apprehended , and immediatly thereupon , tho' at many miles distance , her telling that her tormenters were now taken , betwixt ▪ twelve and one a clock in the morning ; and the sheriff when he returned , did declare the seisure to have been about that time : is so notorious and so well attested that we need only to put you in mind of it . her falling in fits upon the sight , or touch of her tormenters , was no effect of imagination : for she was fully hood-winked with a cloak , so as she saw no body whatsoever ; yet upon the approach of her tormenter , she immediately fell down dead : whereas she no ways startled upon the touch of any other : which experiment was tried for ascertaining this mean of discovery . in the last place , she is naturally sagacious and observing : and discovered her integrity in the face of the court. for when the president asked , whether or not she knew one of the prisoners names that was to be pricked ? she answered , that though she knew her well enough of her self ; yet one had told her the name of this prisoner when she was sent for to be confronted with her : so far did this girle discover her aversion from any thing that might seem intended to aid the natural evidence of truth unfairly : and her firmness to the utmost against temptations of becoming a with ; particularly against the last assault of satan , wherein he perswaded her at least to go to their meetings ; and she answered , that she would not follow such a base fallen creature : and he rejoyning , that she would go to hell however for her other sins ; and she answering , that he was a liar from the beginning , and the blood of iesus would cleanse her from all iniquity : whereupon he disappeared , and she perfectly recovered upon the sabbath thereafter , was an happy end put to this fearful tragedy of witchcraft , and confirms , to conviction , the reality of it . as to the murdering of the children , and the minister , charged in the inditement ; you may observe several extraordinary things appearing in them ; particularly , the witnesses depone , the minister to have been in excessive torments , and of an unusual colour , to have been of sound judgment ; and yet he did tell of several women about him , and that he heard the noise of the door opening , when none else did hear it . the children were well at night , and found dead in the morning , with a little blood on their noses , and blewness at the root of their ears ; which were obvious symptoms of strangling : besides , that the mother of one of them cried out , matthew , mathew , the child is dead . and the house of the other was whitened within , with sifting of meal the night before . both which particulars were told and discovered by the confessants , before the witnesses , which now concur with them in it , were examined . secondly . the second part of the probation consists of several adminicles , or corroborating evidence proven by unsuspected witnesses , which lead us to suspect those prisoners to be witches , as so many lines drawn from a circumference to a center , and as an avenue to the positive probation thereafter adduced : and these either strike at the whole prisoners in general , or some of them in particular . in general ▪ we need not enumerate all these adminicles , but remit you to the probation , which is so full concerning it ; only you will be pleased to take notice , that it is clearly proven , that all the accus'd have insensible marks , and some of them in an extraordinary manner ; that most of them have been long reputed witches , and some of them in . by a confessing witch , whose subscribed confession has been produced . you see that none of ▪ them do shed tears , nor were they ever discovered to do it since their imprisonment , notwithstanding their frequent howlings : so that it is not a sudden grief or surprise . and finally , that the girle fell in fits of torment upon the prisoners approach to her , and that she did name them all frequently , either in , or out of her fits. in particular , you see how katharine cambell was provoked by this girles discovering her theft ; whereupon she has brought in the rest of her confederats to act the following mischiefs : how thereupon cambell did curse and imprecate in a terrible manner : how she stayed out of her bed at night , and was frequently drousie in the morning : how she was named by the girle , particularly the two nights she was out of prison : the ball of hair was taken out of her pocket and burnt ; whereupon the girle 's voiding of hair at her mouth did cease : she could not express one word , even when on her knees , of prayer for the girles recovery : and the insensible marks on her were very remarkable . agnes nasmith did not torment the girl , after she had prayed for her : she was reputed a witch , and hath the marks . she came early in the morning to bargarran's yard , when , by her refusing to go in , it appeared she had no business : yea , it is plain , that she had a resentment , because she got not a greater alms the last time she was there . the girl declared ex incontinenti , that nasmith asked her health and age ; which , in these circumstances , was a shrewd presumption of her evil design : and she acknowledged her self ▪ to have done this , when she asked the age of another child ; wherein , by providence , she was befooled ; since that which she thought would have been an excuse , tended to discover her guilt . and lastly , a●…ter this appearance of agnes nasmith , the girl did take her first fit , and nominate her amongst the first tormentors . margaret lang , that great impostor , has been a master-piece of the devil ; she has confessed unnatural lust , which is known to some of your number . she sat near the door , where the charm of hair was found , which the girle declared did keep up her tongue ; and , upon burning thereof , it was loosed . the girle fell in fits upon her approach : she has notable marks ; particularly one , which the confessants declare she lately received ; and , by inspection , it appears to be new. when she came from her private conversation ( no doubt with the devil ) she raged as if she had been possest , and could not but declare , that she expected a violent death . she looked in the face of iames miller's child , and asked her age , whereupon that child sickned the same night , and named margaret lang on her death ▪ bed ; it appears she was ready to show to ianet laird a sight of her mother , who had been three years dead . and finally , she has been taken in several lyes , and gross prevarications ; particularly , you may remember , how six hours ago , when the witnesses were examined on the ball of hair found with katharin campbell , a gentleman ( mr. stewart of ) heard her say to katharin in the ear ; this is well bestow'd on you , because ye would not put it away when i desired you , &c. vvhich the said mr. stewart did openly testifie in court upon oath ; notwithstanding which this impudent vvretch had the confidence to deny it , tho katharin cambell also confest , that she had pulled her , and had spoke somewhat to her , to which she did not advert , which was no wonder , the vvitnesses deponing , at the time being close upon katharin . margaret fulton was reputed a vvitch , has the mark of it ; and acknowledged , in presence of her husband , that she made use of a charm ; which appeared full of small stones and blood. that her husband had brought her back from the faries ; and her repute of being a vvitch is of an old date ; besides her being named often by the bewitched girl . as to the lindsays , they all have the mark ; and were all of a long time reputed to be vvitches . iohn lindsay of barloch was accidentally discovered by the girles taking a fit upon his coming to the house . iohn and iames lindsays were accused by a confessing vvitch in anno , vvhich confession is publickly read before you ; and there was money given to the sheriff-depute for the delaying of the pursute . iames lindsay appeared to william semple suddenly , and flew about like a fowl , for an opportunity to strike him , in revenge of the quarrel mention'd in the deposition , and at last prevailed to strike him dead over a vvall. and finally , which is a remarkable indication , both of truth and providence , the very vvitnesses adduced in defence of the lindsays , deponed so clearly against them , even beyond the pursuers vvitnesses , that their advocate was daunted at it ; and thereupon desisted from calling any more vvitnesses to be examined in their defence . it is true , some of these indications may be in one , and others of them in another , either from nature or accident ; and yet that person not be a vvitch : but it was never heard or read , that all these indications , which are so many discoveries by providence , of a crime that might otherways have remain'd in the dark , did ever concur in one and the same individual person that was innocent : yea , on the contrary , they , by the vvisdom and experience of all nations , do as convincingly discover a vvitch , as the symptoms of a leprosie concerted by all physicians argue the person affected with the same to be leprous . but grant they are not sufficient of themselves : yet their tendency and meaning , being cleared and applyed to their proper cause , by a plain and positive probation ; there wants no more to determine you as to the prisoners guilt . and therefore , thirdly . as to the third part of the probation , vve remit the positive depositions of the confessants , and against whom they do concurr , wholly to your own perusal and examination : only be pleased to take notice . first , some things which very much add to the credibility of their testimonies , arise from their examination in court. secondly . we shall explain to you the import of the word nota , which is added to the decree of the judges , admitting these last witnesses . as to the first . elizabeth anderson is of sufficient age , being seventeen ; yet so young and punctual , that her deposition appears no effect of melancholly : she accused her father to his face when he wa●… dying in the prison , as now there are two of her aunts in the inditment , which certainly must proceed from the strength of truth , since even dives retain'd a natural affection to his relations . she went on foot to the meetings with her father , except only that the devil transported them over the water of clyde , which was easy to the prince of the air who does far greater things by his hurri-canes ; she tells that montgomeries house was meallie when his child was strangled : and she declares that she never renounced her baptism ; but was carried along by the compulsion of a parent : so that nothing can be objected against her testimony in any judgement , much less in an excepted crime . iames lindsay it is true , is of less import : yet by his weeping when he came in and was admonished of the greatness of his guilt , it appears that he had a sense of it : he hath a natural precipitancy in what he speaks , yet that is commonly the concomitant of ingenuity , as importing his expressions not to be fore-thought . he concurrs in most things with the others , and yet he has declared , that he saw not margaret fulton at dumbartoun , &c. which implys that he does not file the prisoners all at randome , but tells what occurred to his senses , &c. ianet and margaret rodgers are instances of a singular providence , for they did confess the same morning that the court did last sit , of their own proper motion , there being neither ministers nor judges by them at the time . agnes naismith is ianets relation , and she tells that she never saw katharine campbel , as margaret declares that she did not see iohn lindsay of barloch : which plainly demonstrats that they tell only the dictats of their natural conscience arising from discretion and knowledge of the true matters of fact : they both professed their repentance last sabbath in the church : and do persist with a great firmness , and you see their deportment in deponing to be congruous and exact . thomas lindsay and christian shaw , being under age , we did not press their being put to an oath ; yet you saw that they did declare in court against these criminals in such an harmony with the rest of the deponents , and gave such a cause of their knowledge , that it is certain their youngness in years adds extreamly to the credit of their testimony : because thereby it is incredible , that they could have contrived or executed the acting so by concert . as to the second . since these witnesses are admitted by the judges ; it necessarily inplyes , that they meant them to be probative ; only they added the words cum nota : that is , you must take notice , or notandum est . that there must something else concurr to prove the guilt of the prisoners , besides the depositions of any two such witnesses : but so it is , that all the circumstantial evidence , on which you have seen probation led , for more then sixteen hours of your time , are strenghtening evidences , of those witnesses credibility , and cannot but have been taken notice of by you as inferring the same things which they depone . whereby the nota is fully taken off by the concurrence of four other positive testimonys , agreeing with that of two of these witnesses : by the extraordinariness of the corpora delicti : by the probability of circumstances : and finally by the whole chain of this affair , and the sparkles of an infernal fire , which in every place have broke out of it . it is true there are some few of the circumstances that are proven only by one witness . but as to this , you may consider , st . that a witness deponing de facto proprio , is in law more credited than any other single witness : and this is the present case as to some of the circumstances . dly . the antecedent , concomitant , and subsequent , circumstances of fact , do sustain the testimony and makes the semi-plenary probations to become full . but , dly . the other circumstances , undoubtedly proven by concurring witnesses , are per se , sufficient : and therefore you saw us , at the desire of the judges , forbear to call the far greatest part of our witnesses ; because the time had already run to so great a length , and it was thought that there was already enough proven of presumptions : for it may as reasonably be imagined , that the most regular and curious scheme had emerged from the fortuitous concourse of atoms roving without rule , as that so many indications should concenter against each of these prisoners , and yet they remain innocent of witchcraft . now upon the whole , you will take notice , that presumptions being vehement , make a more certain probation then witnesses : because presumptions are natural emanations of the thing it self , which cannot be bribed ▪ whereas witnesses are obnoxious : so in our law there was one condemned for theft , another for falshood , and a third for murdering of a child , meerly upon presumptions , as is related by mc. keinzie in his criminal treatise : much more may presumptions , add to the credit of , and take off the nota from , positive witnesses , for it is a gross mistake , that several proofs , which have each of them some import , may not be joyned to make a full evidence , the same way as two small candles in a dark room , will not suffice ; yet several others being added to them , will make a sufficient light , to discover the murderer ▪ two boys will be able to carry a weight which one of them would not be able to sustain ; as two units make a full number : one witness of whatsoever dignity proves nothing ; yet out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every truth shall be established . and finally , tho one coal make not a fire that can do the work ; yet several coals added to it encrease the flame ; which is hoped will be sufficient for the operation . we shall therefore leave you with this conclusion , that as you ought to beware to condemn the innocent , and ought to incline to the safest side : so if these prisoners be proven legally guilty ; then , as to what is past , your eye ought not to spare them , no●… ought you to suffer a witch to live : and , as to the future ; in doing otherways you would be accessory to all the blasphemies , apos●…acys , murders , tortures , and seductions , &c. whereof these enemies of heaven and earth , shall hereafter be guilty , when they are set at liberty . so that the question seens simply to come to this , whether upon year oath de sideli , you can swear , that the prisoners , notwithstanding all that is proven against them , are not guilty of witchcraft ? in the determination whereof we pray god may direct you to the right course . the jury being inclosed near six hours , brought in their verdict to court , that they found the inditement . i am , &c. the second letter . sir . i have collected according to my promise , what appeared to me most specious in the reasonings , either in court , or private conversation about receiving of the confessants as witnesses . you are not to imagine , that the prisoners were condemned on the credit of these : for i do believe the probation by unexceptionable witnesses , led antecedent to this last , was so pregnant , that the prisoners might have been condemned on it , tho' these last had not been adduced . i may have missed the energy of the argument sometimes , in a case which in it self is so abstruse : however , you have it in such manner as i was able to comprehend it ; as follows . in order to the more satisfactory answering of the objections made against these last witnesses , we shall first , lay before you the state of the case : and , then , clear up the ●…mination of it . as to the first , the question is not , whether partners in the crime , or others mentioned in the objections , can be a concluding proof of themselves , tho' two of them should concurr as to the same act of witchcraft : but whether the corpora delicti appearing already to imply witchcraft , and the extrinsick presumptions being so pregnant , to infer that these prisoners are the witches : there concurring such characters , as by the observation of all nations and ages , are the symptoms of a witch ; particularly the marks , fame , not shedding of tears , &c. which are providencial discoveries of so dark a crime , that like avenues lead us to the secret of it . and finally , when six persons of different ages and stations , fiye confessants , and the girl , do , when separatly examined , agree in their answers to every material question that is put to them , even tho' it be new ; so that it could not be concerted : we say , whether or not in such a case may witnesses be received to compleat the evidence by a positive probation , of a matter of fact which is the object of sense , tho' otherways they be liable to exception , if such extraordinariness of the corpora delicti , clearness of the circumstances , and of the diagnosticks of the witches ; did not preceed them ; as you have seen it proven they do ? the case is not , whether these witnesses would be good in an ordinary crime , which commonly happens to be exposed to other witnesses , then those concerned in it : but whether they can be received in this extraordinary , occult , and excepted crime of witchcraft ; wherein there are two special cases to be consider'd ; viz. sometimes the acts thereof are open and admit the choise of witnesses ; such as charms used in the day-time , when the actor is visible . but that part of witchcraft , whereby witches meet in the night-time , adore their lord , contrive their mischievous designs , and accordingly afterwards put them in execution , when other witnesses are asleep , or the witches themselves are covered from sight : we say , that this can be no otherways proven than by these that are privy to it , joyned to the positive proof and presumptions before-mentioned . we do not alledge , that persons altogether destitute of knowledge and natural conscience are to be admitted in any case , such as infants , mad , foolish persons , &c. neither do we contend , that thomas lindsay and christian shaw , who are under age , should be put to their oath ; for they are only to be examined separatly before the court , upon queries , by which it may appear , whether or not they agree with the four other confessants , that are to depone before them ; and this is the prisoners advantage in case of disagreement : but we insist , that any person above nonage , giving evidences of considerable knowledge and natural conscience ( which is a sufficient fond for all the credit that we need in this case , that is already almost fully proven ) is to be received as a witness . as to the d . we shall make this as clear as noon-day . st . from reason and the nature of the thing . dly . the unanimous judgment of lawyers in all nations and ages . dly . our own customs and decisions . and thly . the singularity of this circumstantiat case . as to the first . the going to , and coming from meetings , especially on ●…oot ; the falling down , and worshiping the devil there , untler a corporal shape ( which he had when he tempted our saviour to do it ) the actual murdering of children by a cord and napkin ; and the tormenting of others by pins , &c. are plain objects of sense : and therefore he senses are to be believed concerning them . for as reason hath things intelligible , and faith things supernatural ; so the senses have things c●…rporeal to their object , as to which they are to be trusted , until it be proven , that the appearance is impossible , or that the witness of it , is an impostor . it is part of the witches purchase from the devil , that they cannot be seen on some occasions : so that the abominations committed then would remain unpunished , if such witnesses were not admitted . i●… cannot be thought that witches ( who of all criminals are the most backward to confess ) would venture the loss of their own lives , by deponing against others , against whom they have no special pi●…que ; yea , for whom they have particular affection , as several of the prisoners are some of the witnesses relations . nor has the devil any peculiar interest to instigat them thereunto : for several of the prisoners have confessed other execrable crimes : whereby it cannot be supposed , that satan would be divided against himself . god in his ordinary providence has taken such care of publick judgments , that the enemy of justices special power ceases as to that , as appears by the witches not being able either to do more harm , or to escape , after god's ministers begin to counteract satan's instruments by imprisonment . and finally , the oddness of the crimes , the concurrence of the presumptions ; and the existence of matters of fact , wherein these consessants ( tho' not knowing the same otherways ) do agree with other unexceptionable witnesses , &c. do sufficiently add to their credibility : for as falshood being a crime , is never presumed ▪ so ●… person found true in many things , is still presumed to continue such , till the contrary be evinced . as to the second . socius criminis &c. admittitur si delictum sit nefandum men. a. i. q. l. d . l c. c. is . . n. . seq . aut ocultum & veritas aliunde haberinon p●…sit m●…s . ●…ol . . c●…n . . n. . aut di●…ficilis probationis farin . lib. . op. criminalium . ●…it . . q. ●… . n. . mas. v●…l . ●… . co●… . . n. th . menoch . l. d . cas. . l. st . q. . nocturno tempere comi●… qu●… dis●…ilis dicuntur probationis boer . deci●… . . n. . menoch . d. cas. . n. . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 presump●…iva & conjectur at a probatio sufficit , verum etiam in habiles admit●…tur faria . ●… . d . ●…r . . q. . n. ▪ mas●… . l. . con. . n. . i●…em in dilictis commissis in ere●… , 〈◊〉 , mo●…te alio●… loco secreto , gomez . var. res , tom. d. c. . n. . far. d. tit. . q. . ●… . sed o●…cultum non dicitur quod ac●… non intervenerint , at quod de natura delidi vel r●…ne 〈◊〉 & ●…poris a●…ii tes●…s habitu intervenire non po●…uerint : ut est mal●…ficium 〈◊〉 quo socius 〈◊〉 , &c. a●…mittitur . men. l. d . cap. . cas. . n. . campeg . te test . reg ●… . ●… ▪ 〈◊〉 . . c●…otus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . part th . n. . o●…dindorp . d●… . ●…est . ●…il . de personis testium n. . in a word all lawyers who have writ particular treatises on witch●…rast in germany , italy , love●… , fran●… , and spain , &c. do concl●…de , that inhabile witnesses ; and particularly socii are to be admitted in vvit●…craft ; only the strictest of them do think , that this admission is to be cum nota ; or as delrio in the place cited for the prisoners expresses it , ex his so●…is , the judge is not to condemn , nor do we require it . as to the ●…hird . we have the testimony of our famous k. ia. th . de●…on . lib. . c. ult . telling us , that it is our law , that boys , girls , infamous persons , &c. are not to be rejected any more in witch●…rast , than in humane lese majesty , even tho' they assert others to have been presen●… at imaginary meetings : because this supposes their having entred into a pre-contract : he say●… , th●…t 〈◊〉 mark , and the want of tears , are pregnant aids to the discovery , quod deus prat●… 〈◊〉 ordi●…em voluit ess●… secretae iman●…tatis judictum , & co non permittente ut fedissimi criminis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . he gi●…es an instance of a girl , who having named several witches 〈◊〉 her 〈◊〉 , they 〈◊〉 all condemne●… upon 〈◊〉 concurring presumptions . this is not a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but ●… man who as cur●… u●… , was exact : as ●…rudent did not publish such ●…hings 〈◊〉 the approbation of the best divines and lawyers ▪ as a pri●…ce , is to be craedited about the law of his own country ; and as a king has determined any doubt that might have remained in this ●…oint , as far as the law of our government will permit . but further our judges and lawyers have followed his majesty : for in all the processes in the journals ; fame , and accusation , and the mark , are still sustained , as most pergnant presumptions ; upon which , and a very small probation besides , witches have been frequently condemned . so in the processes against the bewitchers of sir george maxwel of pollock , and hamilton of barns , anno , . socius criminis , tho under age , is sustained to be a witness : and witnesses are adduced before the jury for proving , that the mark was found upon some of the witches . women and minors have been received by multitudes of decisions cited by mckenzie . tit. prob . by witnesses , and tit. witch●…raft . and he also cites decisions , where , in paralel cases , socii criminis and others inhabile were admitted ; particularly in treason and in falshood : and all lawyers conclude , that witchcraft is as much an excepted crime as these . as to the th . what ever inhability these witnesses might be under , it is fully made up , and they rendred unexceptionably habile by the chain of this whole business . it is true one m●… thro the concurrence of corrosive humors , may have an insensible mark ; another be enviou●…y defamed : a third may thro sudden grief or melancholly , not be able to weep , &c. a fourth may be loaded with suspitious circumstances , when extraordinary things fall out in t●… country : and a fifth may be deponed against by two false vvitnesses , tho neither of these separatly be truly vvitches . but by the known observation and experience of mankind , none except vvitches have had the unhappy medley and concurse of all or most of these indicia , and ordinarly , and for the greater part , vvitches have them : so that since the rules of judgment are established upon that , quod plerumque fit , which does obtain till an excepti●… be apparent in a special case , the conjunction of these in one per●…on , does as plainly give 〈◊〉 character , as the most certain symptoms of the plainest disease , being universally concer●…d in all parts of the vvorld , points out to us that the haver of them is a person ●…ruly affected with that disease , whereof he hath the concurrent diagnosticks . in a word , one or other 〈◊〉 these may concurr in the innocent ; but no vvriters do attest , that all of them have concentred in any other person in the world but a vvitch : and on the other hand , their taking place in witches , through all parts of the world , must proceed from a common , and not from a peculiar humour or cause . the specifick aptitude , of some of the nicest of the indicia , which appeared from the probation already led , to discover a witch , do serve to clear the ground of the worlds observation concerning them . particularly the devil , as aping god , imprints a sacrament of his covenant : besides that , commonly this mark being given at the first meeting , does by its intollerable pain , force the witch to a second randevouz for curing it , at which the poor wretch being under this furious necessity , fixes the paction by renewing it with deliberation , ha●…ing been diverted in the mean time from considering the horridness of the first 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the pain . the inability to shed tears may be a characteristick of harden●…ng , th●… not alw●… ▪ in the case of christians ; yet in these who have ceased to be such ; lest the devil giving the●… such words of scripture and prayer as many have , it should be impossible to discover their hypocri●…y ; and that is not satan's own interest , since by this discovery occasion i●… given to buffoon the profession of holiness . a report often arises without ground , but a consta●… report that keeps footing ▪ implyes for the most part a surer cause ; especially when it is o●… persons below envy ; and by persons above calumny . the girls falling in fits at the approach of the prisoners might proceed from antipathie , arising from the poisono●… steems of the witch accustom'd to produce that effect through a vertue affixed thereun●…o by the dev●… , by conjunction of natural causes ( the same way as the invisible ●…estilence does operat ) of his promise of casting the girl in fits at the witches presence , might have been general ; whereby the witch was eventually befooled and discovered , as it often falls out : for satan envies even their temporal felicity , and fears lest by continuing here , they should be pluck●…d out of his hands by conversion : when they come to perceive the delu●…ion of his promises to make them rich and the like , &c. there was one thing further , which was tried before your lordships , viz. none of the prisoners that were tried ( tho most sagacious and knowing , and perfect in memory , so that it could not proceed from ignorance or forgetfulness ) could make out the attempt of saying the lord's prayer ; which may either be a secret judgment for renouncing their first lord , from whom it is pecul●…arly denominated ; or by restraint of their new lord , who may think that too special an homage to his adversary . but we have hindered you too long with that which is not necessary : for this being incontravertible law and custom , there needs no phylosophy to support it : since legislators do reason , but subjects must obey : and both the fool and the lazie ( who have neither read nor thought enough to understand this subject ) are to be left to their own chimera's : yet least they should insult , we shall answer in their fashion , such of the objections as the prisoners advocate thought any ways worthy to be repeated in this place . whereas it is objected , that delrio sect. . sess. . says , that socii are not to be admitted witnesses ad condemnandum ; especially considering , that the probation ought to be luce meridiana clarior . it is answered , that the place it self confutes this inference in the present case : for it says , ex his solis non est procedendum ad condemnationem , s●…io contrarium communius ●…eneri & in praxi ●…tinere , &c. so that it is evident , first . that the common opinion and custom is in the contrary , even when there is no other probation , but by the partners of the crime . yet , second●…y , we are not so strai●…ned , but subsume in his very words , ex his solis , we do not desire the prisoners should be condemned ; but your lordships see these witnesses we are to adduce , are not soli , or alone ; for the probation led these last sixteen hours , are so many concomitants and discoveries of providence , which astruct and make up any defect in their credit that can be desiderat . hence , thirdly , the meaning of that maxim ( which is metaphorical , as appears by the words , clarior luce meridiana , an equal clearness being sufficient ) is fully answered , and takes place in the present case , for the extraordinariness of the corpora delicti , pregnancy of the presumptions , and punctualness of the positive probation , being conjoyned ; there is not a clearer proof upon record in any nation , than that to which , 't is hoped , these will amount . whereas this allegation is enforced , by pretending it were of dangerous consequence to allow such witnesses to prove meeting with the devil , since satan might have represented other●… by their false shapes . it is answered . first . that we are not straitned in this ; because there are many articles proven , which ●…ould not have been falsifyed . but if we give some scope to reasoning , even in this point , it is to be considered , that the rules of judgement are established upon that , which , for the most part , does still obtain ; and rules are to be followed , till an exception be proven in a particular circumstantiat case . but so it is , by the experience and observation of the wisest divines , lawyers , philosophers , physicians , states-men , judges and historians , at home and abroad ( that are too wise to be imposed upon , and too ingenuous to deceive us , when they all concur in the same matter of fact ) beside the testimony of witches themselves every where ; makes the apparitions of withes to be commonly and mostly real ; so delrio tells us , lib. . sect. . illusi rarissime contingit , ita iaquerias , comensis , sprengirus bien●…dus , &c. and therefore the testimony of the senses is always to be credited concerning them , until it be disprov'd . for single or few instances of false representations to the s●…nses esteeming them to be true , or a possibility of appearances being false , can no ways invalida●… the rule established upon experience , which is common , and for the most part , whereby no exception is to be proven in a special case ; since a wonder does not subvert the proof draw●…●…rom the common course of nature ; logick admits not to argue a 〈◊〉 , or from possibility to existence ▪ law puts the burden of proving simulation on the affirmer , and that which se●…dom occurrs , is not considered by the legislators . for illustrating of which , it is further to be considered , that for the most part and ordinarily , the witches are personally existent in the places where they appear ; because it 's more easie for the prince of the air to transport them in his hurricanes which he can raise , as is plain in the instance of iob ( who was put in his power , i. e. his natural power without delegation ) forming a fence upon their face , whereby the violence of the air may be diverted from choking them : than to form the curious miniature of such various transactions on their brain : the difficulty whereof is the ●…eater , that all their 〈◊〉 are not disposed at all times the same way ; and they have not the seeds of this work , unless they had once acted it in reality . it is both the greater crime and pleasure to act in reality , which therefore the devil and witches do rather chuse ( unless the place be far distant , or the party indisposed ) and this de facto is attested to be so , by the writers and witches in all nations and ages . secondly . notwithstanding that the rule must hold , till an exception of exculpation be evinced , as to a particular person , by evidencing , that the real appearance was in that special case a true mistake ; yet this exception is sufficient for safety of the misrepresented ; since the same providence which permitted the affliction , will order the out-gate and exculpation ; either by the aerial bodies not abyding the touch , or some other distinction , as providence commonly allowes the devil to personate only with cloven feet , or that the apparition was solely to one single witness , who cannot be a proof ; or that the innocent can prove alibi ; or finally , the known character of a samuel , will purge and dispel the aspersions of satan , contrived on purpose to discredit the evidence of sense , by which alone his instruments can be discovered . especially this character being joyned to the other circumstances of the providence ; such as when good men are disguised , they are mostly passive in the scene and presumptions . whereas witches are personally active in their common life by such words and deeds , as ( in conjunction with these appearances ) conspire to make us know , and distinguish them from the truely good ; since these witches open profanity , naughtiness , or unvailed hypocrisy , being cleared by fame , sealed by the mark , and confirmed by the other discoveries of the presumptions that ly proven before you , do still make a land-mark betwixt the children of darkness and light. so delrio , lib. . sect. . n. . tells of athanasius and st. germanus , against whom probation was adduced for sorcery , but providence did disprove it . it 's a famous instance of susanna , represented by the elders ; which , though not in the case of spectre , yet agrees in the rationale . the representation by pharo's magicians had concomitants , by which they were discovered and confounded . but lastly , suppose that god , in the depth of his wisdom ( to convince the error of too much self confidence ) should permit all necessary probation to concur against an innocent person ; yet the judge , following the faith of proofs , established by divine and humane laws , is altogether innocent : and since this case is very rare , the evil is less than the establishing a principle , by which most of all these monsters could not be cut off . upon the whole , it is certain , that tho' oft-times false witnesses set on by the devil , have taken away an harmless life , by accusing it of crimes ; yet the testimony of witnesses must still be credited , till they be made evident : so these appearances of witches , with the other specialties before exprest , being proven , ought to be esteemed real , till the fallacy be made evident . especially seeing there are examples in ancient and modern history of satan's representing the best of men , as committing murther , buggrie , &c. in effigie ; so delrio , lib. . sect. . n. . relates , that st. silvanus was represented by the devil , as committing a common capital crime : and the like of a monk : whereof there are several modern paralel instances ; yet this cannot enervate the rule and faith of publick judicatures , founded on no more but upon the sight of the like appearances ; and any argument against the probation in witchcraft , will equally hold against the probation of any other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . wherefore the rules of them both must be common , as to believing the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 supra ; till their error be individually discovered . finally , the certainty is noways diminished by the extraordinariness of the appearance to the senses : for in law and nature reality and not simulation is presumed , 〈◊〉 the contrary be made appear by proving the thing not possible in nature , or tho' it be possible , that it is actually false . this is answer enough to those who place a great part of their small wit in a nonsensical arguing against all divine authority : but writers further illustrate that the extraordinariness of a matter of fact , does not exclude its reality from being the subject of the testimony of vvitnesses , in our saviours miracles , transfiguration , vvalking on the vvater , standing in the midst of the disciples while the doors were shut , and arguing assurance by their senses , that a spirit had not flesh and bones , tho' indeed the surer vvo●…d of prophe●…e did put these beyond doubt . nor could it be alledged for the prisoners ( tho they had the last word , as perhaps they have not , in objections against witnesses , since therein re●…unt acto●…es by atta●…qing the presumed hability , or legality of the vvitnesses ) that it s not conceiveable , how the girl or vvitnesses could see what the bystanders could not behold : besides the impossibility of the real bodies entering at closs doors and windows , or not intercepting the sight o●… what is at its back . for to this it would be answered . st . proven facts must not be denyed , tho' philosophers have not yet certainy reached the invisible manner of their existence : so in nature , the load-stone draws the iron , the compass turns always to the poles , &c. in scripture the angel●… ( and the devil was once such , retaining as yet his natural powers ) smote the sodomites , that they could not see the poor ; tho' they saw the house . balaam's ass perceived the angel that stood undiscover'd to himself ; and the rod thrown down by the magicians of egypt , was no doubt , seen by themselves , tho' invisible to the by standers . vvhich holding of their eyes , interpreters explain to have been done by natural means ; and yet the manner thereof is certainly difficult . however , it is also certain , that if a possible way can be proposed , the reality of a proved fact is not to be contradicted : and this can be done in the present case : for , secondly . satan's natural knowledge , and acquired experience , makes him perfect in the opticks and limning : besides that , as a spirit , he excels in strength and agility ; whereby he may easily bewitch the eyes of others , to whom he intends that his instruments should not be seen , in this manner , as was formerly hinted , viz. he constricts the pores of the vvitches vehicle , which intercepts a part of the rayes reflecting from her body ; he condenses the interjacent air , with grosser meteors blown into it , or otherwayes does violently move it , which drowns another part of the rayes : and lastly , he obstructs the optick nerves with humors stirred toward them : all which joyned together , may easily intercept the whole rayes reflecting from these bodies , so as to make no impression upon the common sense ; and yet at the same time , by refraction of the rayes , glyding along the fitted sides of the volatile couch , wherein satan transports them , and thereby meeting and coming to the eye , as if there were nothing interjacent , the vvall , or chair , behind the same bodies , may be seen ; as a piece of money lying out of sight in a cup , becomes visible , so soon as the medium is altered by pouring some vvater on it . several of your number do know , that the girle declared , that she saw and heard the doors and vvindows open at the vvitches entry , when , no doubt , the devil had precondensed a soft stoppage on the eyes and ears of others , to whom that was unperceiv'd . so apolinus escaped domitian's sight ; and giges became invisible by his magical ring . iohn of sali●…bury tells us of a vvitch , that could make any thing not to be seen : and mejerus mentions another , that had the like power . some italian vvitches of greater then ordinary wit confessed to grillandus , the devils opening doors and windows for them , tho the more ignorant , by a fascination , think themselves actors of this . whence it ought not to be doubted , by any reasonable man , what in all times and places is so uncontestible fact. finally , the prisoners could not insist , that those confessants are to depone only on their imagination . which can prove no more against themselves , or others , than a dream . for still it s to be minded , that there are other proofs to which this is only necessary , as a consonant circumstance . but further , arg. causa , it is answered , that the allegation is a mistake ; seeing they declare plain matters of fact , obvious not only to one , but to several of their senses , viz. some of them went the greatest part of the way to these meetings on foot : they there saw and touched their confederates ; they heard their combinations to destroy and torture the infants , the girle and the ministers : they returned on foot again : and even when they were carried thither , or back again , they knew , on the next day that it was no dream , by the same way as all other mortals discover the difference . but moreover , this is confirmed by some real effects of a personal presence , as you have seen in the probation : and it is yet further cleared by the journal of bargarrens daughters sufferings ; which was attested before the former commissioners , and is known in the country ; particularly the glas●… of sack , and orange pi●…e ; the pieces of the clouted sleeves ; the words expressed on the sudden murther of the child , by the woman that looked after it , which are constantly told by some of the confessants ; as also the houses being strewed with meal that night . the girle , the hood-wink'd , her falling in fits at their approach , &c. and others , which shall be pointed at to the jury , conjoyned together , can be ascribed to no other cause then the real ex●…stence of the witches persons in the place : unless it be said , that satan might possibly have foisted and suborned all those ; and thence it be concluded , that the devil did actually so , in which case the objecters are the persons that found their opinion on imagination , without any positive ground of the reality of what they fancy ; yea , against positive grounds , of belief in the contrary ; which arguing from possibility to existence , is already sufficient exploded . whereas , for strengthning the objection it is alledged , that the confessants having been in the devils service , and renounced christ , they are not capable o●… the religion of an oath . it is answered , first . in the rules of charity , &c. the confessants , tho once witches , have now , at least the majority of them , ceased to be such , having had the use of means , by the ministers and word , and actually declared their repentance , and the devils ceasing to molest them ; particularly elizabeth anderson was only carried along violently by her father , and stood out , to the last , renouncing of her batism , or consenting to those crimes which were contrived in their meetings . ianet and margaret rodgers do testifie a great remorse , and avowed the same last sabbath in the face of the congregation . so those three are sufficient , whatever might be said against the other two , especially if we joyn the improbability , either of hazarding their own lives , or the devils sending them out against these prisoners , or their destroying their own relations ; as was remarked before . but , secondly . whether they remain witches or not ; it is certain , by reason and experience , that the devils peculiar influence ceaseth when they are brought to judgment : by the common course of providence : and therefore the authors before cited admit witches whether penitent or not . thirdly . all the supposed defects of their evidence is supplied , and the intireness thereof compleated , by their testimonies being so wonderfully confirmed ; particularly the confessants are constant from the first discovery ; uniform in such various circumstances , not only with themselves , but with the girle : they declare nothing but what is probable , most of the prisoners having been reputed witches , all of them having the mark ; and one or other of them , ( to whom their associates who delighted in mischief , never failed to joyn ) having had particular provocations to take revenge by the torture and deaths mentioned : besides , the other presumptions of guilt already proven before you . the confessants were threatned to retract by the prisoners themselves and their friends : besides the bad usage from others in the countrey . they concurr with the bewitched girles testimony , and amongst themselves , even when examin'd singly : and upon new things : as several of your number have tryed the experiment : on this head delrio , lib. . sect. . n. . wisely observes , quamvis tam facile foret demoni plures decipere quam unum tamen non est censendus deus hoc aeque p●…rmi tere ne omnis ratio probandi talia delicta occulta judicibus adimatur ; hoc enim est dissentaneum provid●…ntiae divinae . the reiteration of the acts which they declare , as to some persons that they never saw , except in these congresses , and yet whom they knew now on the first sight , is unaccountable , if they were cheats : and that they are not such is further confirm'd by some of the prisoners being accused , by a confessing witch in anno . and you know that others accus'd by these confessants , were lately brought in guilty by the verdict of a former inquest , &c. which are so many joynt proofs of the witnesses integrity , and make a chain of evidence and moral demonstration both against error in themselves , and delusion , in relation to others , &c. there were some things objected from the law of scotland , of which also i shall give you a touch . whereas it was alledged , that irretiti criminibus capitalibus , those who are indicted for capital crimes , and so under the pursuers power , cannot be admitted to be witnesses ; conform to a statute in regiam majestatem . to this it was answered , that we need not say , that these statutes have not the force of law , except in so far as they are received by custom ; and are conformable to law. a laick cannot witness against a clerk , or e contra , &c. nor need we make use of that which is obvious , viz. that these statutes are only common rules in ordinary crimes ; which have their exception in all occult and excepted crimes , such as witchcraft , &c. nam omnis regula subverti potest , and particularly this rule is actually so restricted in the case of witchcraft , by the opinion of lawyers and the customes before-mentioned , which are the best interpreters of laws : for if this application should hold , a socius criminis could never be admitted : but we positively deny , that those confessants are under our power or influence ; seeing elizabeth anderson is not guilty of witchcraft , for any thing that does appear : the lindsays were never indicted for it ; and the inditement against ianet and margaret rogers was drop'd ; as the whole commission is to expire against the first of iune , betwixt and which time , they are to proceed no further then this particular trial. so that this objection vanishes into smoak . whereas it is pretended , that the rogers's cannot be received , because not given out in the list of witnesses ; conform to the regulation , whereby the prisoners might have proven their objection by their exculpation . it was answered , st . this objection ought to be rejected ; because , besides that the act speaks only of criminal libells , and not indictments , which with the list of the witnesses may be given in far shorter time than the additional list has been given to the prisoners indited , being prisoners : this act is interpreted by the common custom of the justice court ; of giving additional lists after the first , upon shorter time then this has been given : as is particularly attested by iames guthry macer , who gave them , and being a person in officio , his testimony is to be credited in what relates to his office : so that the old custom confirmed by a decision , august d. ▪ where alexander forrester was cited apud acta against a vvitch , continues as to this point , as is related by mckenzie , pag. . but dly . any objection that the prisoners pretend against these witnesses , is in jure , or may instantly appear . dly . the case is altogether extraordinary and circumstantiat : for these witnesses had not confessed : and so were not existent under that reduplication when the principal list was given out : whereby the act of parliament can only be understood of witnesses , that were then existent . and finally the prisoners got a general warrand of exculpation for citing of any witnesses they pleased , and they have had several days since they got this additional list , so that they might have cited witnesses to prove their objections , were it not the truth is , they have none , besides these that are common and before answered . thus i have given you hints that your own reason ( which i know to be refin'd ) may improve and apply , so as to dissolve the quibles which the petty witts , who have not soul enough of themselves to penetrate into the depth of that which is abstruse may raise against it : it being their common talent either to skipp over things superficially , or else to attaque some of the slightest outworks , and then to triumph as if they had obtain'd the victory . i must confess that none could be more sceptical as to the truth of such odd things as i had heard ; nor inquisitive for canvassing the reality , and explications of them , then i was before my attendance at bargarrans house , and the several dyets of court ; and my conversation with some of those concerned in the matter . but now , after all that i have seen , reasoned , and heard ; i do acknowledge may self entirely captivated by the dictats of natural understanding and common sense , into a firm belief and perswasion , that , as there is such a thing as witchcraft , so it was eminent in its forementioned effects ; and that the seven prisoners were some of the witches . i have troubled you little with my own observations ; yet lest you should think me too lazy i shall make one , and that is , that i do not think the greater part of the condemned prisoners will ever fully confess : for which conjecture i have two grounds , viz. that they are neither ignorant nor melancholick ; but on the contrary , some of them would seem to have been once enlightned before they fell away , so that if this be a sin unto death , there is no appearance that they will glorify god by confession . several of them are persons of singular knowledge and acuteness beyond the common level of their station : particularly margaret lang did make harangues in her own defence , which neither divine nor lawyer could well out-do : yet i thought that when they sp●…ke in a matte●… of any concern , their eyes stood squint and fixed , as if they had been turning their ears and attending to some invisible dictator . their answers to the trying questions put to them , were surprisingly subtile and cautious : tho indeed , by the indu●…ry of some of the judges and lawyers , they were sometimes catch'd in lyes , prevarications , and contradictions ; which might have proceeded either from natural or perternatural causes . some of them were esteemed in the country to be very sagacious and exact in their bussiness : margaret lang having been a noted midwife , and one of the lindsays having acquired a considerable fortune by his tillage and trade : yet it was observed , that there did commonly break out in their hypocritical way of living , something odd either of iniquity or affectation ; and lindsay did cunningly enough get off from the sheriff when he was formerly accused in . melancholy persons are lovers of solitude ; witches of society , and feasts : those are commonly pale and heavy ; many of these corpulent and ●…oluptuous witches are hard to confess as knowing their guilt ; the melancholy delight to discover their horridest damps , because they think them no crime : the contessions of the one are every where uniform ; the others phantasms are as various as their humours . finally , witches teach their trade ; whereas conceits would dye with the melancholy ; and can no more be conveyed by them to others then the humour which is the specifick cause thereof . as these distinguishing characters do hold in the general , so in this particular case there are several others : such as , most of the prisoners were of middle-age , one of them not much above twenty ; and the first confessants are known to be young : so that dotage or melancholly are the less to be suspected ; yea was morally impossible in many of their cases . for the facts which the confessants had formerly declared before the commissioners for enquiry , were sworn to by other unexceptionable witnesses before the commissioners for the trial ; and their circumstances were such , that one of 'em could not know what was to be deponded by the other : as it 's already manifest , that the real effects in several passages of bargarrans daughter were not possibly producible by any imagination or humour ; and it is special in this case , tha●… neither the prisoners nor confessants were distempered by being kept from sleep , tortured , or the like , which were too usual in former times ; but all the measures were strictly observed , that are requisits to a truly impartial judgment . i needed not insert the copies of the depositions themselves : because it is not deny'd that they are such as represented in the pleadings ; the chief question being about the legality of the last deponents . nor is there any need to insert the defendants part of the debate , seperately by it self ; in respect that it is faithfully repeated or implied in what you have here sent you . upon the whole i do believe ; that there is scarcely a more remarkable providence of this nature to be found in any true history ; nor was there ever a more exact caution in any enquiry or trial of this kind : a more clear probation , without confession of the prisoners themselves , or , a more just sentence , putting together all circumstances , upon record . i am , what you have made me , yours , &c. finis . the tryals of thomas walcot, william hone, william lord russell, john rous & william blagg for high-treason for conspiring the death of the king, and raising a rebellion in this kingdom at the sessions-house in the old-baily, london, on a commission of oyer and terminer held there for the city of london and county of middlesex, on thursday, friday and saturday, july , and , . walcot, thomas, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryals of thomas walcot, william hone, william lord russell, john rous & william blagg for high-treason for conspiring the death of the king, and raising a rebellion in this kingdom at the sessions-house in the old-baily, london, on a commission of oyer and terminer held there for the city of london and county of middlesex, on thursday, friday and saturday, july , and , . walcot, thomas, d. . hone, william, d. . russell, william, lord, - . rouse, john, d. . blague, william. england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). [ ], p. printed for richard royston, benjamin took, and charles mearn, london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng walcot, thomas, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. hone, william, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. russell, william, -- lord, - -- trials, litigation, etc. rouse, john, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. blague, william -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (treason) -- england -- london. rye house plot, . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryals of thomas walcot , william hone , william lord russell , john rous & william blagg . for high - treason , for conspiring the death of the king , and raising a rebellion in this kingdom : at the sessions-house in the old-baily london , on a commission of oyer and terminer held there for the city of london and county of middlesex , on thursday , friday and saturday , iuly , , and . . london , printed for richard royston , benjamin took and charles mearn . m dc lxxxiii . i appoint richard royston , benjamin took and charles mearn to print the tryals of thomas walcot , william hone , william lord russel , john rous and william blagg , at the sessions in the old-baily ; and that no other do presume to print the same . will. prichard , mayor . the tryals , &c. the tryal of captain thomas walcot . thursday iuly . . at the sessions-house in the old baily , london : the court being me● and proclamation made for attendance , the proceedings were as follow . thomas walcot being set to the bar , and after having held up his hand , the indictment was read as follows . london . the iurors for our sovereign lord the king , upon their oaths present , that thomas walcot , late of london gent. as a false traitor against the most illustrious and excellent prince , our sovereign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , his natural lord , not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weighing the duty of his allegeance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , and the true duty , and natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our sovereign lord the king , towards him our said lord the king , do bear , and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing , and with his whole strength intending the peace and common tranquillity of this kingdom of england to disturb , and war and rebellion against our said lord the king to move and stir up , and the government of our said lord the king within this kingdom of england to subvert , and our said lord the king from his title , honour and kingly name of the imperial crown of this his kingdom of england to put down and deprive , and our said lord the king to death and final . destraction to bring and put , the second day of march , in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord charles the second , king of england , &c. the five and thirtieth , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , at the parish of s. michael bassishaw , in the ward of bassishaw london aforesaid , maliciously and traiterously with divers other traytors , to the iurors aforesaid unknown , did conspire , compass , imagine and intend our said lord the king , his supreme lord , not only of his kingly state , title , power and government of this his kingdom of england to deprive and throw down , but also our said lord the king to kill and to death to bring and put , and the antient government of this his kingdom of england to change , alter and wholly to subvert , and a miserable slaughter amongst the subjects of our said lord the king through his whole kingdom of england to cause and procure , and insurrection and rebellion against our said lord the king to move , and stir up within this kingdom of england ▪ and to fulfil and perfect the said most horrible treasons , and traiterous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid , the said thomas walcot as a false traytor , then and there , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , maliciously , traiterously and advisedly did assemble , meet together and consult with the aforesaid other traytors , to the iuror , aforesaid unknown , and with them did treat of and for the executing and perfecting their treasons , compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid ; and that the said thomas walcot as a false traytor , maliciously , traiterously and advisedly then and there , and divers other dayes and times , as well before as after , did take upon himself , and to the aforesaid other traytors did promise to be aiding and assisting in the execution of the treasons and traiterous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid ; and in providing armour and armed men to fulfil and perfect the said treasons and trayterous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid : and the said most wicked treasons , and trayterous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid to fulfil and bring to pass , he she said thomas walcot as a false traytor , maliciously , traiterously and advisedly , then and there did procure and prepare arms , to wit , blunderbusses , carbines and pistols , against the duty of his allegeance , against the peace of our sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statutes in that case made and provided , &c. cl. of cr. what saist thou , thomas walcot , art thou guilty of this high treason , whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? capt. walcot . not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit how wilt thou be tryed ? capt. walcot . by god and my countrey . cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance . then were william hone , john rouse and william blague arraign'd , who pleaded not guilty to their indictments , and the court adjourn'd till the afternoon . when thomas walcot being again brought to the bar , after some exceptions , the following jury was impannel'd . nicholas charlton , christopher pitts , robert beddingfield , iohn pelling , william winbury , thomas seaton , william rutland , thomas short , theophilus man , iohn genew , iohn short , thomas nicholas . cryer . oyes , if any one can inform my lords the kings justices , &c. l. c. j. mr. sheriffs , this is an extraordinary case , it is reasonable the evidence should be well heard : i require you both to keep the court quiet . — mr. tanner , swear the kings evidence one at a time . clerk. thomas walcot , hold up thy hand : you of the jury look upon the prisoner and hearken to his charge : he stands indicted by the name of thomas walcot gent. prout in the indictment before mutatis mutandis . upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto pleaded not guilty , and for his tryal put himself upon his countrey ; which countrey you are . your charge is to enquire , &c. mr. north. may it please your lordship , and you that are sworn , the prisoner stands charged , that he being a false traytor to the king , and intending to raise war and rebellion against the king , and to bring his majesty to an untimely death , did on the second of march in the five and thirtieth year of the king , at the parish of s. michael bassishaw , meet with other traytors like himself , and there conspired to bring these treasons to effect ; and accordingly promised to be aiding and assisting to provide arms for it ; and did actually provide several arms , as carbines , blunderbusses and pistols for the perpetrating this treason . this is the charge , to which he says he is not guilty . we will call our witnesses and prove it , and then you are to find it . mr. att. gen. gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner at the bar is accused of the highest of crimes , high treason against his sovereign lord , in compassing the murder of the king , in raising rebellion within this kingdom , to the overthrowing of the best constituted , and the most excellent government in the world. gentlemen , he does not stand alone ; and therefore he is charged in the indictment with a conspiracy with many others : i am heartily sorry to say there are many ; indeed there is hardly any kingdom or nation , wherein there are not discontented persons , whose narrow fortunes or malevolent spirits render them uneasie in that condition god almighty hath put them ; but to find men that pretend to be christians , or to have any thing of virtue , and under the best of governments , that indeed is a matter of wonder ; and indeed it casts so great a stain and reproach upon the protestant name , that it is not to be wiped off , but by the severest justice of the kingdom . gentlemen , this design was for a general rising , and at the same time to assassinate the king and the duke , of york : this is the design which the whole course of our evidence will open to you , and lies so naked , that i hope no englishman that lives , but will see through these men , that have made such a noise and tumult in these latter dayes . this design to assassinate the king , and the rising , was designed to be in october last , upon the king 's return from new-market ; and at that time there was a noble lord , that is gone now to his own place , as will appear by the evidence , that furnished them with considerable summs of money , for the providing men and arms for the assassinating the king at that time , but the assassinates were not then ready , as god appointed they should not be ready ; and so at that time they were disappointed . then the general rising was put off till queen elizabeth's day , which will open your eyes to see upon what grounds those tumultuous meetings were encouraged in the city , to the terror of all honest men : but that rising was also disappointed , because some of the conspirators were not ready with their men in the countrey : and then , gentlemen , though it was prest on by the person i mentioned , he then thought it high time to leave these confederates to themselves . gentlemen , after this we shall trace them in their several meetings and consultations : for there was a time that they struggled with themselves ; which should be effected first , whether they should first kill the king and the duke ; or whet●●r they should first rise , and so prosecute him in an open rebellion , and destroy him that way . and the course of our evidence will shew how ingenious these men were ; for it appears , there were men of great ingenuity and courage , as appears by the prisoner at the bar ; and they would discourse of these matters in phrates , that common persons should not understand them — capt. walcot . i do not understand you . mr. att. gen. i speak as loud as i can . at their meetings , for cutting off the king ; that was the executing of a bargain and sale ; and a short conveyance , to come to their end . the raising of a war , that was under the notion , and so to be discourst of , of executing a lease and release , to work both upon the possession and upon the reversion : and under these mystical terms they discourst of all these subjects , when they were in publick places . capt. walcot . i do not hear . mr. att. gen. you will hear the witnesses , and that will concern you more . then gentlemen , in these several meetings they contrived to allot every man his part , some were to provide arms , others were to provide men , to do the execution , which was last resolved upon to be at the rye , upon the kings last return from new-market . gentlemen , in all these parts , which i hope to prove , the prisoner will appear to have a principal part in them all : in all the consultations and advisings for the raising men , wherein he was to be a principal commander , according to the skill he hath ; but for the assassination at the rye , rumbold was to conduct the men hired for that purpose . gentlemen , accordingly the time was appointed for his majesty to come , and the assassinates to meet him there : but it pleased god , that that was disappointed by a miraculous fire , for so all englishmen may call it : and whereas they were to go down on friday to rumbold's house , and the king to come up on saturday , the fire brought him to town on tuesday : but notwithstanding this great providence to divert them , rumbold and others of the confederates , resolved to go on with it still ; and several places were appointed , and several officers appointed to view those places , either between hampton-court and windsor , or else to do it at the play-house , or upon the kings passage from the play-house by bedford-wall at covent-garden ; but if these should fail , they were resolved to do it at the bull-feast . gentlemen , they went further ; they provided arms ; which very arms opportunely fell into our hands : we seised those very arms that were bought for that purpose to kill the king and the duke . we shall go through with it ; i will name you the material places of their meetings , that so you may understand the witnesses ; the green-dragon tavern on snow-hill , the salutation tavern in lumbard-street , the angel tavern near the exchange , and mr. west's chamber in the middle temple ; these were some of the principal places , though they had several other places , wherein all these matters were consulted and transacted . they had prepared a new model of government , and they were for overturning all , as all these politicians do ; though they had a most excellent government , yet they had a better in their own brains ; or at least ; their share would be greater in it , as all rebels have a prospect of . gentlemen , for the other parts , we shall have less occasion to give evidence of now , for every one had their particular part ; some for the great design of the rising , some for the killing of the king , whereof that gentleman , the prisoner , was one ; and there were other parts assign'd to others , for taking and surprizing the tower. we will call our witnesses , and prove all that we have opened , and make it as clear to you as the sun shines : such a prodigious villany , nothing but a firebrand from hell could kindle in me●s minds , to kill the best of kings , and to destroy the best frame of government . gentlemen , i do not question your justice , but that this man shall pay what is due to the justice of the kingdom . mr. s. jeffreys . my lord , i only desire to give an account of the method of our evidence . capt. walcot . my lord , i desire i may have the favour of pen and ink. l. c. j. that you shall have . mr. s. jeffreys . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , mr. attorney hath already given you an account of the design that was to be put in execution by a parcel of evil men , whereof the prisoner at the bar we charge to be one . we shall not detain you longer with opening the matter , but beg the favour of the court , that we may acquaint you a little with the method we intend to follow in calling our evidence for the king against the prisoner at the bar. in the first place , my lord , we will call our witnesses , to give your lordship and the jury satisfaction , that there was a design in general , and that that design was first intended to be a general rising over all the kingdom ; in which design the prisoner at the barr had a very considera●● share , and was looked upon to be a very proper and fit person for the managery of that part of the design : for other meetings , and at what places , mr. attorney hath already opened to you . we will then come to more particular agreements that were between them , in order to the carrying on this admirable good work , as it hath been truly stated , for the destruction of the best and most merciful of kings , and for the destruction of the best of religions , the religion of the church of england . i take notice of it , because all men may know , the most of these persons , nay , all of them , concerned in this hellish conspiracy , were dissenters from the church of england . and the better to effect this horrid villany ( i am sure i want words , and so does any man else , to express the baseness of these crimes ) the better to effect this thing , the way it was to be done , was by taking off the king , and by taking off his brother too . at length after several debates and some proposals made between these persons , they came to a determination and an actual resolution , to take off the king and his royal brother . my lord , we will prove generally , that this was the intent of the design or the plot in general . my lord , we will then give you an account , that they entred into several consultations for a new model and frame of government ; for they intended to set up the people , and they had even fixt a certain superiority , and resolved as all people of their principles have a mind , according to their several inclinations to fix the power in the people ; gentlemen , an old tenent , that brought the kings father to that untimely and horrid end , by fixing the power in the people . these gentlemen had a mind to insinuate and ingage the people , by fixing the power in them , and saying that publick proclamations were to be made . and after this horrid and barbarous murder , intended upon the king and the duke , there were declarations to be made in the names of such and such lords , and the associating members of the last house of commons , these were the persons thought fit in whose hands the power of the whole kingdom should be lodged . gentlemen , after we have given you an account of the several meetings , then we will come to the prisoner at the bar , and prove against him , that he had not only an hand in the first part of the plot , about the rising , but he was also to be one of those villains that were to murder the king : i cannot express my self in more moderate terms , and i am sure no man can blame me that hears the proof . gentlemen , when we have thus given you this evidence , i hope we shall satisfie the court , and all mankind , that persons that have been thus guilty , under pretence of religion , or under any other pretence whatsoever , are fit objects of the severity of humane laws . if we prove against the prisoner at the bar , that he had an hand in this horrid conspiracy , i make no doubt but you will shew your selves to be englishmen , loyal men , and overtake all men that thirst after the kings blood . mr. sol. gen. gentlemen , we will call our witnesses , and as no man can doubt , but the murder of the king , that vile design , would have been seconded by a power to back that horrid villany ; so we shall shew you , that this gentleman was concerned in both parts , in the immediate assassination of the king , and the raising of arms. we need not go about to give you an history of the thing any other way than in applying it to this person , for there is no part of this conspiracy he can clear himself from , and all the evidence that speak of this design , speak of this man as a chief actor in it . m. att. gen. call col. rumsey . ( who was sworn . ) mr. sol. gen. col. rumsey , pray give my lord and the jury an account what you know of the prisoner at the bar , whether he were concerned , either in relation to the murder of the king , or the raising arms. l. c. j. mr. rumsey , raise your voice so audibly that you may be heard . col. rumsey . the first meeting i had with this gentleman , was at mr. west's chamber . mr. att. gen. before you begin to tell of your meeting , give an account of any rising that you have heard of . col. rumsey . sir , about the latter end of october , or the beginning of november , i was with my lord shaftsbury late at night , and he told me , that the duke of monmouth , my lord russel , my lord grey and sir thomas armstrong , were at one mr. shepherd's house near lumbard street . he desired me to go to know what they had done about the raising arms at taunton . i did go , and mr. shepherd carried me up to them , and they told me , that mr. trenchard had failed them about the men , and they could proceed no farther at that time . l. c. j. what shepherd was this ? coll. rumsey . mr. shepherd the merchant near lumbard-street , one mr. thomas shepherd . and so i came to my lord the next day and told him of it ; and then he made his preparation to be gone for holland . l. c. j. what discourse had you with my lord shaftsbury thereupon ? what did he say ? what made you believe he made preparation to be gone ? col. rumsey my lord , he said , there was no dependance upon those gentlemen that met , and he would leave england . after that a fortnight or three weeks , there was a meeting one day at mr. west's chamber , and there was mr. west , and mr. goodenough , and mr. wade , and some body else there was , but i cannot remember his name , captain walcot was in holland then . there it was proposed , nothing was to be done by a general rising ; but there was no surer way than to take off the king and the duke ; and that to that intent and purpose , they could not carry it on without mr. ferguson ; and so he was writ for into holland ; and he came out of holland upon that letter , and captain walcot with him . after mr. ferguson's coming back from holland , there was very suddenly a meeting again , and then it was concluded , that nothing was to be effected without taking off the k. and d. or to that purpose . mr. ferguson was not at that meeting . there were two or three meetings before captain walcot was there , to find out men , and they could not find out a number of men , without which mr. rumbold would not undertake it . so about three or four meetings after captain walcot came , and he was resolved at last to join in the matter ; but he would not have an hand in attacking the coach , but he would command a party that should charge the guards . l. c. j. what did he say ? col. rumsey . he would not meddle with the king in the coach , but he would command a party , that should charge the guards that came along with him . mr. att. gen. after what manner was it setled that it should be done ? col. rumsey . there were several parties : one small party was to have killed the postillion , another to kill the horses , and mr. rumbold with a certain number to seise the coach , and capt. walcot the guards . mr. att. gen. where was it to be done ? col. rumsey . at mr. rumbold's house . l. c. j. where is that ? col. rumsey . near hodsdon . l. c. j. for what purpose was mr. rumbold and those other men to attacque the coach ? col. rumsey . to murder the king and the duke . l. c. j. how was it designed to be done , by pistol , or how ? col. rumsey . by blunderbusses , and if they mist , then swords . mr. att. gen. did they give any directions about preparing arms ? col. rumsey . when that time fail'd , after the fire fell out at new-market . l. c. j. when was this to be done ? col. rumsey . when the king returned from new-market . l. c. j. about what time ? col. rumsey . the saturday before easter . l. c. j. i don't ask you the day ; but was it when the king was last at new-market , or before ? col. rumsey . last at new-market . l. c. j. when he was last at new-market , in his return from thence ? col. rumsey . in his return from thence . l. c. j. whereabouts ? col. rumsey . at rumbold's house which is near hodsdon . l. c. j. in hertfordshire ? col. rumsey . in hertfordshire . l. c. j. and you say , those methods were chalked out by them , that rumbold and some others were to attacque the coach , others to kill the postillion , others to kill the horses ; and this gentleman with a commanded party was to fall upon the guards ? you say this ▪ col. rumsey . yes , my lord. capt. walcot . i would beg leave , my lord — l. c. j. stay , captain walcot , you shall have leave to ask him any thing by and by ; but you must first let the kings council have done with him . mr. att. gen. i would ask you , what you know of a design at any other time . col. rumsey . i do know nothing , i heard by mr. west , but i knew nothing before . l. c. j. mr. rumsey , about what time was this resolution taken up , as near as you can ? i ask neither the day nor the week , but about what month ? col. rumsey . the beginning of it was in february . l. c. j. last february ? col. rumsey . last february . mr. ferguson and capt. walcot came to this town upon ash-wednesday . mr. s. jeffreys . what other meetings were you at , sir ? col. rumsey . this was the first , when the prisoner at the bar came in . the first time was at mr. west's chamber , where he came : there it was considered and debated . mr. s. jeffreys . very well , you say that was the first time capt. walcot came in . col. rumsey . it was at mr. west's chamber : this was before the king came from new-market , that they were to do this , and the number of men could not be got ready ; so there were several meetings afterward at mr. west's chamber , to consult whether they could raise the number they resolved upon ; and there were notes brought by mr. goodenough and mr. rumbold of many names , i cannot say who else brought notes of the mens names , to see that they might not be deceived in the number : and at that time , capt. walcot was there , and did undertake to go to mr. rumbold's house , and i think did go down to the very place . l. c. j. look you , sir , was there any number of men insisted upon for doing this villany ? col. rumsey . capt. rumbold did insist upon . men . l. c. j. but capt. walcot , how many was he to have ? col. rumsey . it was not divided to a perfect number . mr. s. jeffreys . what other meetings were you at with captain walcot ? col. rumsey . i was at the salutation with him , and the green dragon with him . mr. s. jeffreys . where is that ? col. rumsey . the green dragon is upon snow-hill . mr. s. jeffreys . where is the salutation ? col. rumsey . in lumbard-street . mr. s. jeffreys . now tell what discourses you had there . col. rumsey . that was about dividing the city into parts , to see how many men could be raised out of every part , and they were to be divided into fifteenths , and every man to lead a fifteenth , that they might not be at a loss . mr. att. gen. who was intrusted with this to do it ? col. rumsey . mr. goodenough , mr. west , and mr. wade . mr. att. gen. what account did they give of what they had done ? col. rumsey . m. goodenough gave an account of parts of the . and said out of them would be raised men , and made an estimate that the other . would not raise above as many more , for those were the most considerable parts , as wapping and southwark . mr. s. jeffreys . mr. ramsey , pray what consultation had you afterward , and what was done after ? l. c. j. pray let us go on a little gradatim , what was the reason that this was not effected when the king returned from new-market ? col. rumsey . the fire happened , and brought the king sooner from new-market than the men could be got ready . l. c. j. was there a day appointed for the doing this ? had you a prospect when the king would return ? col. rumsey . yes , it was commonly talked that it would be the saturday before easter , but he came on the tuesday before . l. c. j. then give us an account how that design was disappointed at that time . col. rumsey . the fire happened in new-market , and they were all in a confusion , and could not get their men ready by tuesday ; the news came upon friday to town . l. c. j. of the fire ? col. rumsey . of the fire , and there was a meeting . mr. ferguson lodged then in covent-garden , and sent to several to come to him , to see if men could be got together against tuesday , when the king was to come in , and it could not be done , and it was laid aside for that time . mr. att. gen. upon that what resolution was taken ? col. rumsey . then they had a meeting , and ferguson was not there , there was cap. walcot , mr. west and mr. goodenough ; this was immediately after this disappointment , i am not certain whether it was in mr. west's chamber : and that there might no accident happen afterwards to hinder it , it was resolved that money should be raised for the buying of arms , and mr. ferguson undertook to raise money to buy arms , and mr. west did undertake to provide them . mr. att. gen. who undertook to provide men ? col. rumsey . mr. goodenough and mr. rumbold . l. c. j. look you , colonel rumsey , after this disappointment , when this next meeting was , had you any further design upon the king then ? col. rumsey . yes , my lord. l. c. j. give us some account of that . col. rumsey . it was to be done a coming from windsor to london , or from windsor to hampton-court , or the play-house , and therefore that arms should be ready against any opportunity that should happen , let it be what it would ; and mr. west did undertake to provide arms , and he told me he bought them , and did not get his mony in six or seven weeks after , a day or two after going to ferguson , he told him now he might have his money , if he would send a note to major wildman ; but after he was told , that major wildman would not pay it by note , but he must send mr. rumbold to him for it , for he would trust no body else but him . and so mr. west did send mr. rumbold , and he was there at his house by six a clock in the morning , but he was gone out of town an hour before , so mr. west went to mr. ferguson , and he then told him that he should have money in two or three days , if he would come to him , and mr. west did go to him , and he paid him an hundred pound . mr. att. gen. was there any provision made for a rising now again ? col. rumsey . yes , this general rising , by this division of the city , was intended to be ready against the first opportunity that hapned . mr. att. gen. before this discovery , did you keep up these meetings ? mr. sol. gen. when was your last time ? col. rumsey . my lord , i think it was the very thursday before the discovery ; but then on friday or saturday , we had inklings that this was discovered , and did meet at the george upon ludgate hill. l. c. j. who met then ? col. rumsey . i think it was the very thursday before , i am not very certain , we m●t at the salutation in lumbard-street ; and there was captain walcott , mr. west , mr. wade , the two goodenoughs , and mr. nelthrop , and my self . mr. att. gen. what did it come to , pray what was your discourse then and resolution ? col. rumsey . the resolution was still to carry it on . we went thither to know of . mr. goodenough , what was done about the other thirteen parts , he told us he had no account , but he said , he thought he should have a meeting on saturday in the afternoon at ludgate-hill , at the george , to have his answer , but the discovery coming , there did only meet mr. norton , mr. bourne ; there was another , i don't know who the other was , there was a fourth . mr. att. gen. mr. rumsey , pray after the discovery , what did you resolve upon ? what meetings had you upon your flight ? col. rumsey . we met at capt. tracey's . mr. att. gen. what day was that ? col. rumsey . that was upon the monday after the discovery . mr. s. jeffreys . who was there ? col. rumsey . there was capt. walcott , mr. west , mr. wade , mr. nelthrop , the two goodenoughs , and mr. ferguson . mr. att. gen. what did you discourse of there ? col. rumsey . there was exclaiming against mr. keeling , and taking resolutions to be gone . l. c. j. mr. keeling ! what was keeling ? col. rumsey . mr. keeling was he that made the discovery . mr. s. jeffreys . have you ever been in keeling's company ? col. rumsey . i was that time we met at the salutation , he came in there for a quarter of an hour . l. c. j. look you , sir , do you know capt. - walcott ? are you sure it is that gentleman at the bar ? col. rumsey . yes , my lord. l. c. j. hath he owned always the name of walcott ? col. rumsey . yes , my lord. l. c. j. what did he say to mr. keeling , when he came to the salutation ? col. rumsey . there was in that very days gazette a report of a rising at cologne , and one gulick that headed them , and said mr. west to keeling , he should be our gulick . mr. att. gen. pray how did he interpret it at that time ? col. rumsey . mr. west said that gulick was keeling , gu was keel , and lick was ing . mr. s. jeffreys . a quirk upon his name . mr. att. gen. when you resolved to flie , had you any discourse of making a stand , and fighting the government then ? col. rumsey . not that i know of , i was not all the time with them . l. c. j. look you , colonel rumsey , let me ask you this , what was keeling to do ? was there any post assigned to keeling in this ? col. rumsey . i never saw him before . l. c. j. how long was it before the discovery , that you did see him ? col. rumsey . the thursday before . l. c. j. at the salutation tavern ? col. rumsey . yes , he was there call'd gulick . mr. s. jeffries . if captain walcot will ask him any questions , he may . l. c. j. look you , mr. walcot , now you may ask colonel rumsey ; tell me what questions you would have asked , and i will ask him . capt. walcott . i desire colonel rumsey may be asked , whether i ever met at mr. west's chamber , till after his majesties return from newmarket . l. c. j. look you , sir , you hear the question ; it is , whether ever mr. walcot met with mr. west , till after the king 's return from newmarket ? col. rumsey . till after ? l. c. j. till after the king's return . col. rumsey . yes , sir. capt. walcott . my lord , i have sufficient evidence against that . mr. s. jeffries . i think that he was to undertake the guards , that was before the king came from newmarket . l. c. j. he hath given this evidence , he was there , and he would not attaque the coach ; he would not meddle with the king , but he would fall upon the guards . capt. walcott . shall i speak a word , my lord ? l. c. j. look you , i will tell you , you shall have your answers to these things , you have pen , ink , and paper . capt. walcott . but i have a bad memory , and i am afraid i shall forget this very thing . mr. s. jefferies . i hope the jury will not forget it . l. c. s. look you , mr. walcott , we must not admit you to break in upon the king's evidence , when that is heard , you shall have your liberty to make your answer to any thing , and call any witness . col. rumsey . my lord , i will give one instance more : there was one meeting at the five bells in the strand , where there was only ferguson , captain rumbold , mr. west , goodenough , and my self : and mr. ferguson told us that night , that captain walcott would come the next meeting we had at mr. west's chamber . l. c. j. then captain walcott was not with you at the five bells ? col. rumsey . mr. ferguson told us he would come in the next time at mr. west's chamber , and there he did come . l. c. j. and that was before the king went to newmarket . pray , sir , answer this , was this before the king went to newmarket , or not ? col. rumsey . no , my lord , this was , when he was at newmarket ; for the king was at newmarket , when he and mr. ferguson came from holland , the king was then at newmarket . mr. s. jefferies . now we will call mr. keeling . ( who was sworn . ) mr. att. gen. pray will you acquaint my lord , and the jury , what you know of these conspiracies , and touching this man. mr. keeling . some time my lord , before the king went to newmarket , i was at the sun-tavern , and in company with richard rumbold , richard goodenough , and some others ; goodenough calls me forth of the room , and asked me what men i could procure ? i asked him , for what purpose ? he said , to go down towards newmarket . i asked , for what end ? he said , to kill the king , and the duke of york . i told him , i thought none . before the king came from newmarket , he renewed his question to me again several times : i had , in the interim , some discourse with burton and thomson ; burton told me , that barbor would be concern'd ; and he also told me , thomson would . the saturday after the fire hapned at newmarket , rumbold came down to my house , or the friday , the day that the news was of the fire , the day that he commonly came to town , he came to my house ; it was on the friday , to see those men i could procure , and he desired to see them on the morrow , which was the saturday before the king returned ; the saturday after the fire , i went into london , and met mr. rumbold that day at the exchange , and he then put me in mind of the matter again . i did go to burton , and thomson , and barbor , the place appointed on saturday was the mitre-tavern at the corner of dukes-place within aldgate . he did meet there , where there was some discourse hapned tending to that matter by rumbold ; the substance of which was , whether they were willing to go down ? i think he call'd the place by the name of , the rye , that is his house ; there being , says he , no greater conveniency than in that , i believe scarce in england for the executing such a design , being an house very intire to it self , and very remote from neighbors , besides the advantage that belongs to it of a court or wall. and , among other discourse , this was an argument to prevail with those persons : for , saith he , it will be a keeping one of the commandments , to kill the king , and the duke of york ; for , says he , if that be not done , there will be otherwise a great deal of bloodshed committed . he also told us the way that he design'd to effect this at his house ; that he had a conveniency for our horses ; and that there would be so many appointed to shoot at the postillon and the horses ; and that there would be so many appointed at the coach , and so many men to attaque the guards : and if there was a failure in shooting the coach-horses , that then there should be men in the habit of country-men , with a cart in the lane , and they should run this cart athwart the lane , and so stop the coach. i believe there might be some other particulars , which , at present , i do not remember . from thence we went to the exchange , and there we met in the afternoon at the dolphin-tavern in bartholomew-lane , there was rumbold , west , goodenough , and hone the joyner . and after we had been there a little , west asked rumbold , whether he heard the king would come home that night ? ho said , yes , he heard so ; but , said west , i believe he won't come till monday , and i hope he won't come till saturday , for that was the day appointed to go down to rye , to meet the king , and the duke of york . said rumbold , i hope they will not come till then : but , said west , if they do come , how many swan-quills must you have ? how many goose-quills ? and how many crows-quills , with sand and ink , must you have ? said they , six swan-quills , twenty goose-quills , and twenty or thirty crow-quills . l. c. j. explain that . mr. keeling . i am coming to it . i asked west or rumbold , or both of them , what they intended by it ? they told me swan-quils were blunderbusses , goose-quills musquets , and crows-quils were pistols , sand and ink , powder and bullet . this is all my lord as i remember in general as to the design . l. c. j. what can you say concerning the prisoner at the barr ? mr. keeling . i was at the salutation tavern and captain walcot was there , and when i came in , there was some person called me culing , and i a little stranged at it , not knowing the meaning ; says i , gentlemen , what do you design by it ? says one , here 's a good health to our english culing ; says west culing in dutch is keeling in english , and says mr. west , i hope to see mr. keeling at the head of as good an army in wapping as culing is at collen . i suppose captain walcot remembers it very well . i can say no more , sir , to the prisoner at the barr ; i remember not to have seen him any other time upon this design . mr. serj. jefferies . would the prisoner at the bar ask him any questions ? cap. walcot . my lord , i don't remember any such thing . if you please , my lord , to ask him , whether i call'd him culing , or said any thing more or less to him . mr. keeling . i don't say you did , but you were by , that i say . mr. serj. jeffreys . i think , mr. keeling , you were the person that made the discovery ; give an account of it for the satisfaction of the world . l. c. j. upon what occasion did you reveal this ? mr. keeling , if your lordship please i will give you an account . there was something happened before that time . some time before this thing was discovered , goodenough came down to my house , and i went with him to drink a dish of coffee , and there was in company with him richard rumbold , and his brother william ; that i believe mr. walcot knows ; and when we were by our selves , he pulls out some papers out of his pocket , and gave me one ; i asked him what he meant ; he told me he had divided the city and suburbs into twenty parts , and there was three divisions ; and says he , you know the persons better than i , and who you can trust with it ; one is for your self , and i would have you take to your assistance nine or ten men , more or less , that you can communicate it safely to , and they were to go to several persons , and ask them , supposing that the papists should rise , or that there should be a general insurrection , or a french invasion , are you in a posture of defence ? this was all we were to communicate of the matter to them , and this was to feel them , and see how many men they could raise . and he told me there was a design to kill the king and the duke , which was design'd to be done at the bull-feast , for mr. west had told me it was to be done between windsor and hampton-court . i asked him if that design went on , and he said no ; for the duke of york seldom came with the king from windsor to hampton-court , but it was to be at the bull-feast . and says he , these men are to be in a readiness , and it s designed that the thing should be laid upon the papists , as a branch of the popish plot. he also told me , there was one drawing a declaration , which would relieve poor people of that which seemed most burthensome to them , which was the chimney-money , and then the common people would fall in with them more readily . mr. att. gen. how came you to discover it ? mr. keeling . i will tell you , sir , i was troubled in my mind about it , and do declare that was the only reason ; i thought i did very ill in not discovering it and i had no peace nor satisfaction , nor content , nor did i mind my business , nor could i take that rest that at other times i did , and that was the moving cause , and no other . i thought if it were a sin in david to cut off the hem of saul's garment , it was a sin in me much more to kill my king. l. c. j. was there any post in this case assign'd to you ? was it requir'd of you to do any thing your self , more than to raise those men , and know whether they were in a readiness ? were you design'd to go down to rumbold's house ? tell what part you were to act . mr. keeling . in the first place , i was to raise some men , but i thought they looked upon me for one to go down my self with those men i raised ; but i remember not that i was asked the question . l. c. j. were any of those men to go down ? mr. keeling . those three i named were to go down , burton , thompson , and barber . mr. att. gen. call mr. bourne . l. c. j , tell us the manner of your revealing and discovering this , who you discovered it to . mr. keeling . i revealed it to one mr. peckham . i. c. j. who did he bring you to ? mr. keeling . to my lord dartmouth . l. c. j. and so you did discover the whole business to him ? mr. keeling . i had offered to discover it to another man before , but i thought he was careless , so i did not tell him positively what i thought to tell him , because i saw he slighted the matter , he was a minister of the church of england . then i went to mr. peckham , knowing he was intimate at court , and from thence to my lord dartmouth , and then i was carried to mr. secretary ienkins . mr. att. gen. was there no design to take off the mayor or the sheriffs in particular ? mr. keeling . i will tell you , goodenough did tell me , that the design was to secure the lord mayor , and the sheriffs ; and he told me , they had a design to secure the tower. mr. att. gen. were you employed to arrest my lord mayor ? mr. keeling . i did arrest my lord mayor . l. c. j. what are you ? how came you to arrest my lord mayor ? what are you by profession ? mr. keeling . a white salter , or oyl-man . l. c. j. how came you to arrest my lord mayor ? mr. keeling . i was put upon it by goodenough , and those men . l. c. j. as a special baily ? mr. att. gen. he was as a special bailiss . mr. keeling . under the coroner . mr. s. jeffreys . a special bailiss under a special coroner . mr. bar. street . was this coroner any time at any of your meetings ? mr. keeling . no , my lord. mr. bar. street . i am glad he was not . l. c. j. what say you , capt. walcott ? capt. walcott . my lord , i have nothing to say . mr. sol. gen. call zachary bourne . ( who was sworn . ) mr. att. gen. pray will you recollect your self , and tell what knowledge you have of the prisoner , what meetings you had , and what was agreed . l. c. j. raise your voice a little . mr. bourn . the occasion of my knowing captain walcott was mr. fergusons lodging at my house , captain walcott used to come thither , but it was sometime before i changed any words with him . mr. att. gen. speak aloud , mr. bourne . mr. bourne . mr. wade came presently after i came to town from the wells , and said , i must needs meet in such a place , it was at the dragon upon snow-hill , where we met several others besides captain walcott ; the business was a design to raise men , and divide the city into twenty divisions , in order to the securing of his majesty and the duke of york , and setting up the duke of monmouth l. c. j. was it securing or killing ? mr. bourne . it was not killing i think , we never expressed it killing at those meetings . i think every time i met them captain walcott was there . once i was at the salutation in lombard-street . l. c. j. what was the result of your meetings ? mr. bourne . to make all expedition imaginable . l. c. j. was it discourst how , or in what manner those persons were to be raised ? don't refer your self to the evidence that went before , but tell it your self . mr. bourne . the city was to be divided into twenty divisions , and to raise as many men could out of them , but they were not to tell the direct business , but if there should be occasion , or the papists should rise , they might know their strength , and what they were able to do . mr. att. gen. this was their pretence , because it should not be told those men . l. c. j. did mr goodenough bring any account of it ? mr. bourne . mr. goodenough brought an account of about four thousand ; three i think it was , or very near , out of those divisions he had an account of . l. c. j. was captain walcott there at that time ? mr. bourne . yes . mr. s. jeffreys . when the discourse was about securing the king and the duke , was captain walcott there ? mr. bourne . yes . l. c. j. did you hear what parties were design'd to be in this act ? mr. bourne . they were not come to that . l. c. j. did you break off from them before that ? mr. bourne . no , ●h : discovery prevented it . l. c. j. when was your first meeting ? about what time ? mr. bourne . about ten days before the discovery was made . l. c. j. was mr. west at any of your consults ? mr. bourne . yes , at some of them , and captain walcott was at three of them , if not at all , i think . l. c. j. what was to be done ? mr. bourne . they were to have seized my lord mayor and the two sheriffs , and some of the aldermen , and the chief ministers of state about town . mr. bar. street . was there any body designed for that particular business ? mr. bourne . no , not then , it was not come to that . mr. att. gen. was there any thing about my lord keeper ? mr. bourne . yes , mr. west did say to me , it should be my business to secure my lord keeper . i told him , i did not care to meddle with any of my neighbours . he said , he would call him to account with all his heart , he would put him in mind of colledge . mr. att gen. pray were you imployed to speak with any of the nonconformist ministers about it ? mr. bourne . i would have spoke to two of them , and mr. west was unwilling , for he said the ministers had destroyed all designs ever since constantines time , and he would have nothing to do with them now . mr att. gen. when was your last meeting , before the discovery , that you were at ? mr. bourne . the saturday before the discovery , we met at captain traceys , and that evening we ha● some intimation that there was a discovery made . and i went again on munday morning . mr. att. gen. who was there ? mr. bourne . captain walcott , mr. ferguson , mr. goodenough , mr. west , mr. norton , and my self , one captain pottle came in , but he did nor stay . mr. att. gen. collonel rumsey was there to , was not he ? mr. bourne . yes , sir. l. c. j. and what did you resolve upon then ? mr. bourne . truly they resolved upon nothing , i left them upon the debate of killing mr. keeling . mr. att gen. why would they kill him ? was that debated among them ? mr. bourne . yes , because he had made the discovery . mr. att. gen. did you hear them talk of standing to it with swords in their hands ? mr. bourne . yes , rather than be hang'd , they thought that was the better way , and to have keeling dispatched out of the world . l. c. j. look you , sir , did any of them talk of securing themselves ? mr. bourne . the next morning i went again , and they were all gone but mr. west , they had all secured themselves . l. c. j. was the prisoner at the bar there at that time , when they consulted about killing mr. keeling ? was he there at that meeting on munday morning ? mr. bourne . he was there at captain traceys , he was there i think all the while , while i was there , for i was not there all the time . l. c. j. ( to walcott . ) now , sir , what question would you have ? cap. walcott . my lord , if you please , i would ask whether he ever heard me say any thing more or less , of assassinating the king. l. c. j. in the first place , did you hear any thing in general of assassinating the king ? mr. bourne . i did hear of it , my lord , when the thing was over . and as to his question , i did never hear him discourse of that matter . i understood the design was prevented . l. c. j. who did you understand that from ? mr. bourne . from one mr. row , and mr. ferguson . mr. att. gen. pray in all your meetings was there no discourse of killing the king and the duke ? mr. bourne . very little . mr. s. jeffreys . the discourse was about securing the king while walcot was there . mr. bourne . there was such discourse in several meetings . it was said it would be well if they were off , and the discourse was about lopping . mr. att. gen. pray , tell my lord , what discourse you had of lopping , and the general point . mr. bourne . they said , there was no way like lopping them . mr. att. gen. what was understood by that ? mr. bourne . the taking off the king , and the duke of york . l. c. j. was that the usual phrase among you , to signifie that ? mr. bourne . yes , my lord. l. c. j. was he there ? mr. bourne . i have heard it several times , and i suppose he was there at the hearing of it . l. c. j. ( to walcott . ) look you , sir , he speaks of the time of discourse , of securing the king , and says you were there then . capt. walcott . i had no hand in it . mr. att. gen. we will nail it home upon you , we will call mr. west . ( who was sworn . ) mr. s. jeffreys . come , mr. west , do you tell my lord and the jury , the whole story . mr. west . my lord , i came acquainted with the prisoner at the bar last summer , vacation , by the knowledge of one wilcocks , who , i suppose , return'd his mony out of ireland . i heard a very fair character of him , and he , i suppose , met with such an one of me , which did incline us both to an intimacy , and to talk freely with one another . about the middle of october , i observ'd a general discontent in the city , and was afraid there was some design in hand , and was very inquisitive to know it : i was unwilling to be involved and surprized into a sudden ruine , and so thought fit to inquire of them that were most likely to be concerned . i took capt. walcott for one , being inform'd that my lord shaftsbury had sent for him out of ireland ; and capt. walcott told me , that my lord was also sending for some scottish gentlemen , on occasion of carolina ; but that he was very cool in carolina business , and that that was but a pretence . my lord , one morning capt. walcott came to my chamber , and we discours't concerning the election of sheriffs carried on in the city , contrary , as we thought , to the justice of it : says he , will the people do nothing to secure themselves ? with that he told me a secret , and said there was a design of an insurrection to be made within three weeks , or a month , that would make us free , or worse . i told him , i thought it was a certain way to bring us into a worse condition , and that it was very full of hazards . he told me then , he did not know whether he should be concerned : but a little while after he told me , my lord shaftsbury was engag'd in such a design , and he had engag'd him in it ; and he told me , he had an expectation of being a colonel of horse , and ask'd me , if i would have any command under him ? i told him , i knew some gentlemen of the temple that i might engage in it , but i told him i had not a constitution to bear the toils of war. my lord , he told me then , that my lord shaftsbury , to the best of my remembrance , had another design upon the king , and the duke , as they came from newmarket in october last , but he told me he abhorr'd any such thing , it was ungenerous , and he would not be concern'd in it , but only in a general insurrection . but this he did tell me , i think , before the thing was to be executed ; i imparted it to no body , till after the time of both was past : but in the discourse of the insurrection , he told me , i should lend him a suit of silk armour , which i bought about or years ago , when the popish plot broke out , and he would have had me kept that , and used it my self , which i did decline . then he told me , he had very good swords in ireland , but he wanted them here . says he , i am a man that am observed , because i have a correspondence with my lord shaftsbury , and asked me , if i would provide him a good stiff tuck ? i told him , i would , and i did bespeak one ; but before it was done , the design was laid aside , and the tuck was left upon my hands . i came to understand that the design was put off , by means of mr. trenchard , who had discours't about a fortnight before of great forces he could raise in the west , and the duke of monmouth sent for him , but his heart fail'd him , and he could not raise any men ; upon which , my lord gray cal●●d him coxcomb . this was about the th of november . mr. att. gen. what time of november ? mr. west . the th . mr. att. gen. but upon what day ? mr. west . queen elizabeth's days . mr. att. gen. no , sir , that is the th . mr. west . now after this i understood by capt. walcot that mr. ferguson had the management and conduct of the assassination in october , and that he likewise was acquainted with the insurrection , and was a great man in it . i met with mr. ferguson , and fell into discourse with him , and he treated me , as he always did , with a long story of the miseries of scotland , and that the people were all in slavery and bondage , and would be so here if they did not free themselves ; and says he , there are two ways thought upon for it , one is by a general insurrection , and that is gone off ; the other is a much more compendious way , by killing the king and the duke of york . my lord , i told him , i thought the first way was a very dangerous way , that the people were in no sort of capacity to carry it on , that the government had the navy and the militia , and this would at the best entail a long war. he told me he thought the other was the best way , and we went to a tavern , where col. rumsey , and one row , and he and i went divers times . they proposed to meet at my chamber as a place of privacy and little observation . my lord , when they came to my chamber , mr. ferguson proposed several ways of doing it . one way was as the king and duke had their private visits in st. iames's , where it was an easie thing for sword-men to kill them . there is one thing i have omitted , and that was after the design of october had miscarried , i think , to the best of my remembrance , capt. walcott told me , there was another design of attaquing the king and the duke at my lord mayors feast in the hall , or in their return home , in pauls church-yard , or at ludgate : and mr. ferguson did likewise tell me the same thing , but the king not dining there the thing was wholly disappointed . another way that he proposed was , that they should do it as the king and duke went down the river , they should lie behind some small ships within a hoy ; or some such thing , and so overrun their barge ; and if that fail'd , they should break a plank with their blunderbusses , and so sink them . another way was at the playhouse , and that was to be done in this manner ; there should be or men got into the pitt with pocket blunderbusses , or hand blunderbusses , and pistols and swords ; and when the musick struck up between the acts , they should fire upon the box ; but this this they thought was hazardous , and therefore they thought it better to do it as he came back , and pitched upon covent-garden under bedford-garden wall , because there was a conveniency for a great many men to walk in the piazza , and there might be another parcel of men planted at covent-garden church porch , and within the rails where horses could not come ; and while the men within the rails fired , the men in the piazza might ingage the guards , and they in the church porch to come down and secure them from escaping . mr. sol. gen. when was this time ? mr. west . i think it was before mr. ferguson went for holland . and , my lord , there was another thing propos'd ; i think it was colonel rumsey did say , he wonder'd that the lords and great men that were so fond of the thing , did not raise a purse , and buy some body an office , who should rail against the duke of monmouth , and the whigs , and by that means get himself an opportunity of access to the king's person . my lord , after these discourses , when my lord shaftsbury retir'd to holland , mr. ferguson thought fit to do so too : he was afraid of a book that he had printed , and away he went , and capt. walcott with him . in the mean time i met col. rumsey several times , and several things were offer'd , but nothing resolv'd upon . a little after christmas we met at the salutation-tavern in lumbard-street , and there it was agreed we should send for mr. ferguson , and there i writ a canting letter , that he should come over for his health , for he was the only man that could manage the affair . when he came over , there was one meeting at the five bells , but i came in just as they were coming away , and cannot say what past there . after that they came several times to my chamber , and there mr. ferguson , mr. goodenough , and mr. rumbold , undertook to provide the men . l. c. j. the men , for what ? mr. west . the men for the assassination : that i was not concern'd in , either in person or purse , or to procure any body for it . and they did agree to do it in the going to or from newmarket , and thereupon were several debates , whether it should be done at their going , or coming back . against doing it going down , it was objected , that the guards were left here and there , and they went together , but very often they return apart , and therefore it was not the safest way going down ; and nothing also being prepar'd , so it was resolv'd to be done coming back . then it was consider'd what arms should be provided : mr. rumbold was the man to manage that matter , and was to procure some blunderbusses , some carbines , and some pistolls ; but there was nothing to be prepar'd as i know of by other persons , but every man was to provide himself . several meetings there were , they brought their notes , and conferr'd together about the men , but i remember no names , but keeling and burton : and mr. goodenough said , he had spoke to one hone a joyner ; and , i think , he spake of one manning , and these are all the names i can remember . after they had conferr'd their notes , i ask'd mr. ferguson , what provisions of mony he had made ? says he , i shall have mony when the men are provided , but not till then : for , said he , the last time there was some mony rais'd , and put into a man's hand , who never returned it , but since i understand it was paid to mr. goodenough . and mr. ferguson said , mr. goodenough call'd him fool , for returning some mony he had , and not keeping it for his own use ; and my lord shaftsbury had often complain'd of that injustice done him : the colonel said , mr. charlton should pay the mony. there was a further debate , how these arms should be got down to mr. rumbolds ; it was proposed , to send them down by smithfield carts in chests . others , to send them down by trusty watermen , who were to cover them with oysters . others , that the men should carry them ; but no resolution taken : then it was consider'd , how they should get off . the next thing was , how they should execute this ; and it was propos'd , that one party was to fall upon the coach-horses , a second upon the coach , a third upon the guards : captain walcott would not undertake any thing but the guards . capt. walcott . what do you say , sir ? mr. west . sir , i do say , you were at my chamber , and did say , you were to command that party of horse that were to attaque the guards . it was to be done at rumbold's house ; they were to lie there pardue , till the king just came down upon them . mr. s. jeffreys . at the time of the assassination ? mr. west . yes , sir. mr. att gen. where were these arms to be carried ? mr. west . to rumbold's house ; i did not see it : but he said he could keep them all private , where no body could see them , till the time of the execution . and that there was a gate they were to pass through , that he could shut upon the horse-guards , that they should not be able to come in for their relief . mr. rumbold said , he would bring them off ; and said , he thought it dangerous for them to go the road-way , but he would bring them over the meadows , and come in by hackney marsh : but the way which the prisoner did most approve of , was , that they should retire within his wall , there keep till night , being a place they could defend against any force for a days time . mr. att. gen. where was this resolution taken ? mr. west . this resolution was taken at my chamber . my lord , as to the attempt , when they design'd to make it upon the king 's coming from the play-house , one mr. row said , he had discours'd with one gibbons , that was the duke of monmouth's servant , about it , and ask'd him , if any of their family knew of it ? yes , says he , they all know of it , but they will not be se●n in 't ; and said , that he shew'd him the place . my lord , in one of the discourses i had before mr. ferguson went for holland , i had a mind to be rid of the thing , but i did not know how ; so i created difficulties , and said , i suppose the duke of monmouth is to get most by it , what security will you have you shall not be hang'd when the thing is done ? he is bound , said i , in honour , to hang us all , and make inquisition for this blood , otherwise they will say he is a party . says he , what if i get it under his hand ? but , said i , engage his servants , and that will stick upon him . there is one thing i have omitted , which was in the first discourse with capt. walcott about the insurrecti●n of november ; he told me that my lord shaftsbury was preparing a declaration to be published , in case of an assassination or insurrection , and he ask'd me , if i would undertake to do one too ? for , says he , i would have several people draw it , to pick one good one out of all . and he told me he had made some collections towards it , and shew'd me a paper , which was a collection of all the passages in the three kings reigns , k. iames , charles i. and this kings , that he call'd attempts to introduce arbitrary government and popery ; and concluded , taxing them with some personal vices , and that the government was dissolved , and they were free to settle another government : these , i perceiv'd , were the topicks my lord shaftsbury laid weight upon . i told him that this did require an exact knowledge of the history of those times , and i would not undertake a thing to which i was not competent ; and so he desir'd me to burn the paper , which i did : but for any other declaration , my lord shaftsbury kept his paper to himself , and i never did see it , though i desir'd it . mr. s. jeffreys . can you remember in whose name the declaration was to run ? mr. west . no , i do not remember that . mr. att. gen. after the disappointment , what meetings had you ? mr. west . sir , i will tell you , when the news of the fire came , they adjourned to my chamber , and there considered what they should do ; they were in no readiness , nor had any horses : nay , i believe the thing could not have been effected , if the fire had not happened , and i was very glad it could not ; but for that , i am in the charity of the court. they did endeavour to put things in a posture , to see if it could be done another day ; i think they met on thursday night , and friday night ; but they said , the king would be at home the next day , and the thing was laid aside . my lord , a day i think , or two after , i went into the city , and went to the dolphin tavern , where i met with colonel rumsey , and this mr. keeling came in ; he was there talking of blunderbusses and pistols in down-right english : i told him , it was a foolish thing to talk so before drawers , and that was the occasion of calling them by the names of swan-quills , goose quills , and crow-quills . after this thing we met the next week , not at my chamber , col. rumsey was mistaken in that , but at the george and vulture : there was captain walcot , mr. goodenough , mr. ferguson , one norton and one ayliff : they discours'd of the late disappointment ; and that one reason was , they had not arms in readiness . then they agreed , that arms should be bought , and the number was ten blunderbusses that should be twenty or two and twenty inches in the barrel . thirty carbines , eighteen inches . and thirty cases of pistols to be fourteen inches . my lord , it was put upon me to provide them , for this reason , because i was serviceable to them no other way , and could have a pretence for buying them , because i had a plantation in america ; but mr. ferguson was to pay the money . my lord , i did bespeak the arms , and paid for them with my own money , and was not paid again a great while ; mr. ferguson disappointed me : but at last told me , if i would send to major wildman , he would pay me . but he told me before that , one mr. charlton when he came to town would pay me , but i had none of him . so i told him , i bought those arms upon a pretence i intended to use them , and had spoke to a sea-captain to carry them off to a plantation where i had a concern my self . after that , mr. ferguson sent to me to take my money , so i came to him ; and found with him mr. charlton and another gentleman , whom i could not distinguish , because it was duskish ; mr. charlton went down , and then says mr. ferguson , i have your money for you ; and he paid me in fourscore and thirteen guinneys , which was something more than the arms cost ; and said , he had not the mony above half an hour in his hands ; by which i did guess , it was mr. charlton's money . another thing was , at last meeting with mr. ferguson , he did say , there was a man imployed to see what conveniency there would be for an assassination between windsor and hampt●n-court ; but that was never reported , and so laid aside . that is all i can say concerning the ass●ssination ; but i believe , they did intend to carry it on ; for coll. rums●y did tell me , he saw the hearts of all the great men were upon it : and it would be convenient to have an army to back it . but in case this assassination had gone on , these things were to be done . it was design'd , the lord mayor and the sheriffs should be kill'd , and as many of the lieutenancy as they could get ; and the principal ministers of state , my lord halifax , and my lord rochester that now is , and my lord keeper , for which they gave this reason , because he had the great seal ; and my lord rochester as like to stand by the dukes interest ; and my lord hallifax , as being one that had profest himself of the party before , and turn'd from the right side , and had put the court upon that which otherwise they would never have acted , nor had the courage to have done . as for my lord keeper , they said they would hang him for the murder of colledge , and upon the same post colledge had hung . sir iohn moor was to be kill'd , and to be hung up in guild-hall , as a betrayer of the rights and liberties of the city : and your lordships to be flead , and stuft , and hung up in westminster-hall ; and a great many of the pentional parliament hanged up , as betrayers of the rights of the people . l. c. j. how was this to be done ? to flea them , and stuff them ? mr. west . yes , i understood it so . mr. attor . gen. at these discourses was this gentleman present ? mr. west . he was not at my chamber so often as the rest ; he came not there till towards the latter end ; but he was there sometimes when these things were discours'd of . l. c. j. but you say , he did at last undertake to fight the guards ? mr. west . yes , upon the news of the fire , says he , i believe god shews his disapprobation of the thing . says mr. ferguson , i believe he reserves them for worse punishment . mr. walcot said , he desired to have his name conceal'd . why , says ferguson , why should you be ashamed , it is a glorious action , and such an action as i hope to see publickly gratifyed by the parliament ; and question not , but you will be fam'd for it , and statues erected for you , with the title of liberatores patriae . mr. s. jefferies . what is this ferguson ? mr. west . he is an independent parson . mr. s. jefferies . he preached excellent gospel . mr. west . says he , i have told some non-conformists , and they desired me to forbear ; but , says he , they are silly people , that do not know how to distinguish between killing a prince for difference in opinion about religion , and destroying a tyrant , for preservation of the rights and liberties of the people . he said , it was an action that would make all the princes of the world tremble , and teach them to use their subjects kindly . my lord , they did design at the same time , when the mayor and sheriffs were to be kill'd , that mr. papillon , and mr. dubois should be forced to take the office of sheriffs upon them ; and if they would not take it , they would use them as they did the other : and that sir thomas gold , or sir iohn shorter , or alderman cornish , should be set up for lord mayor : but rather alderman cornish , as the fitter person . i asked them further , what they would do with the king 's natural sons ? says he , they are good lusty lads ; i think we had as good keep them for porters , and watermen ; and for my lady ann , they had as good marry her to some country gentleman for a breed , to keep out foreign pretences . mr. s. jeffryes . i perceive they left nothing unconsidered . mr. att. gen. mr. west , to repeat all their passages would fill a volume ; but as to the continuation of the rising , and whether it was continued ? mr. west . i have a great many particulars , but have them not in method . mr. soll. general . answer questions then . mr. west . when mr. rumbold came to town , he said , he saw the king come by but with six guards , and believed he could have done it with six men , if he had been provided with arms. this is all i can say , except some little d●●course which i have not time to reduce into method . about christmas coll. rumsey told me , there was a design carrying on among the lords , and great men , by whom i alwaies understood , the duke of monmouth , my lord russel , my lord grey , lord howard , coll. sidney , major wildman , mr. hambden , for an insurrection ; and that this was designed to be done about march. coll. rumsey and i were discoursing o● it ; and coll. rumsey thought it fit to draw up some things , that we should require of them to do for the people ; and a paper was drawn up , but my lord russel said , they were rejected , and all should be left to the parliament . and coll. rumsey said , the duke was inclin'd to gratify the parliament ; but the lords about him were for great places , and they would suffer him to do nothing . mr. s. jeffryes . now tell us about culing . mr. west . i dined at a tavern with coll. rumsey , mr. wade , mr. nelthrop , mr. goodenough , capt. walcot , and mr. norton . mr. s. jeffries . what was your discourse there about ? mr. w●st . there was no discourse that had any particular point . mr. sollicitor . was there nothing of division of the city . mr. west . sir , goodenough gave some general account , but nothing was done upon it ; while we were there , in came mr. keeling to speak with mr. goodenough , and mr. nelthrop ; and in the gazette that day was an account of the insurrection at collen ; and mr. nelthrop when he came in , call'd this man , culing . what is that , what do you mean , says he ? i was then writing a letter , and told him , culing in dutch , was the s●me as keeling in english . mr. nelthrop took me aside ; says he , what will you say if i , and some friends of mine , deliver the city , and save the charter , and no body shall know of it till it be done ? but s●ys he , shall not i be hang'd for it ? said i , take heed what you do , no body will be hang'd for any good thing , as to the delivering of the city . there was a treaty between the scots , and our persons of quality here , and coll. sidney and major wildman had the management of it , as i understood . at last , they came down to some terms ; they would have had l. to buy arms , and came down at last to l. and the earl of argyle was to head them : but when mr. ferguson paid me for the arms , he told me , the scots business was quite off , and wildman and sidney haddone ill with the scots ; for after they had kept them , and treated with them two or three monrhs , they broke off because the scots would not declare for a commonwealth the first hour , and extirpating of monarchy , and the family of the stuarts : and that the scots answer was , that would be to destroy all their interest among the lords ; and providence might orderit so , as to bring it to a commonwealth , but that was a business of time . when this was broke off , mr. ferguson told me , that the duke of monmouth was willing to speak with me . and goodenough , and some others . i told him , i never had , nor was willing to speak with him . then he said , sir thomas armestrong would , i told him , i was not willing to speak with him neither : mr. goodenough , i believe , did speak with sr. thomas armstrong . we met at richard's coffee-house , and adjourn'd to the young devil tavern , there was capt. walcot , col rumsey , mr. wade , mr. goodenough and my self , and one holloway a merchant at bristol . mr. holloway did propose , since the scotch business was broke of , that they should try what forces they could raise here . and mr. ferguson did say , if three thousand men could be had , he believed the duke of momnouth and my lord russel would appear in the head of them . they were to divide the city into parts ▪ each th part into ths and ths , and to divide it into streets and lanes ; one principal man was to have a th part , and to have men under him and that they should not interfere with one another , they bought a great map of the city of london . my lord , i did not read one line in it : but mr. goodenough being a man of publick acquaintance by reason of his office did undertake it . i think he did propose mr. borne for one , and one mr. graines for another , and said he would speak with mr. keeling . we had several meetings after this , and mr. goodenough did report that there were men out of two of the hamlets . my lord , i stood here while mr. bourne gave his evidence ; but i suppose he hath a little forgot himself , for he told me he had spoke to one parson lobb , and he said to him he would try what his congregation could do ; that he had two in newprison , and he would set them out to see what they could do ; that they were poor men , but zealous in their way . i think mr. bourne hath forgot himself , for he did mention that he had spoken to parson lobb . mr. s. jefferies , then parson lobb was in ; there was another parson in . mr. west . yes , and he mentioned lobbs pound . mr. att. gen. the prisoner was at those several meetings , was he not ? mr. west . yes , and did shew himself ready to act his part . about a fortnight before the discovery brake out , mr. rombold told me they had a great jealousie mr. keeling would discover all the business ; that mr. keelings wife and mother cryed mightily , and charged him for neglecting his business ; and said they were afraid he would do a great deal of mischeif to honest people , for he had replied to them he would not want money , and he would be hanged for no body ; upon which rombold told me , if i was sure of this , says he , i would dispatch him , i would get him into the country and kill him ; but saies he , i will not kill an innocent man ; if i thought the thing was not so , i would not kill him for all the world. mr. keeling told him he had an overture from one shoote of fourscoure pounds a year . mr. att. gen. after you had notice of the discovery , did you meet ? mr. west . the saturday before the discovery , i dined with mr. rombold , and he took mr. keeling along with him ; saies he , we won't discourage him too much ; it may be 't is not so ; mr keeling told him he never wanted money so much in his life ; mr. rombold and one gal● that was to be one of the assassinates ; contrived to help keeling to money , and lent him . upon the sunday , i had notice the thing was discovered , and that keeling had accused me , and mr. goodenough , and mr. nelthrop . on the munday morning early i thought fit to retire ; but we did agree to meet at capt. walcots lodging . my lord , i came thither pretty ●arly , and all the people came afterwards that had agreed to come thither , but they designed to go beyond sea. i had no mind to go ; they had hired a boat , and gave . l. in earnest , but the next morning it was said the messengers were abroad , and that it was believed the river was beset , and there was no getting away ; then every man shifted for himself , & i shifted by the means of mr. bourne , who i thank him , helped me to a conveniency for two or th●ee days . when we were all retired , they got mr. keeling in the city , and rumbold discoursed him in the presence of several people , where he wished a great many imprecations upon himself if he had discovered . i told them i did not understand him ; for if he had made a discovery , it was a fine way to catch people in . then there was a discourse of killing him ; they proposed to him to go out of town : he refused them , but said he would go in a few days ; tha● night they followed him , and upon tracing of him , they found he had called out his brother , and that he and his brother were gone to the secretarys , and then it was taken for granted that discovery was made , and every man must shift for himself . had not keeling deceived them at that meeting at the tavern by the protestations he made , some body had killed him there . then mr. wade said , if the duke of mommouth would go into the west , we might try a push for it , and the prisoner at the bar said , i am satisfied god will deliver the nation , tho he does not approve of the presen instruments . l. c. just. have you done as to this gentleman at the bar ? capt. walc . when was it that i should say these words ? then i desire your lordship would ask him how many months ago it was he saies i gave him the paper ? mr. west . it was in october . capt. walc . then , whether i did not then lye ill of the gout ? mr. west . not at that time , my lord. this that i say of the paper was given me at my chamber , and then i think he was pretty well . capt. walc . my lord , i am not so natural a fool to think , for me to charge the guards , when another man kills the king , but i am as guilty as he that kills him . l. c. just. no doubt of it . mr. west . capt. walcot , i would not take away your life to save my own ; but i do take it upon me , that you did agree to command , or be one of those that were to fight the guards . l. c. just. what was the reason he would not kill the king ? mr. west . he said it was a base thing that way , being a naked person , and he would not do it . l. c just. so the point is the same , but only you distinguished in the point of your mistaken honour , and thought to kill the king was not so honourable a point , as to fight the guards . capt. walc . there is no difference between the one and the other , to do one and the other is the same thing . l. c. just. your judgment is now rectified ; but what say you to the matter ? for now you hear what is fastned upon you , that is , several consults about the securing or killing of the king ; and your advice was to kill him , and you did go down to romball's house , to view the place where it might be done the most securely ; and you did undertake , as several witnesses say , not only mr. west , but col romsey and another of them ( bourne i think it was ) , that you would fight the gaurds , if you might have a considerable number of men . capt. wal. my lord , if ever i was at mr. romballs house , unless it was when i travelled from york by norwich , and came to london ; if ever i was there since , then i am guilty of all the roguery imaginable . mr. west . i never heard , my lord , mr. romball say he was there , but col. romsey told me so . col. roms . my lord , he bought an horse , and he said he did intend to go down ; and indeed to the best of my remembrance he did say he was down ; but i am not certain ; but he did buy an horse that cost him , i think , twenty pounds . l. c. just. for that purpose ? col. romsey . yes . l. c. just. now you hear , this is a little more particular than the other ; col. romsey did say before , that you did agree to go down , and as he believes you did go down . col. roms . i believe mr. west may remember he bought an horse for that purpose . mr. west . i remember he bought an horse for service ; but i can't say it was to go down thither . l. c. just. it does import you to tell us upon what account you met so often , and what was your meaning in hearing these things , and consulting of them , and what your raising of men was for , and the declaration written for the people , to please the people when this assassination was over . capt. wal. the declaration , mr. west saies , was in october last . mr. west . i take it to be so , my lord , to the best of my remembrance there was this passage : saies he , i believe in a month or three weeks you will be better or worse , so that i measure it by that . cap. wal. my lord , mr. west , does tell your lordship a very long story , and sometimes he names one gentleman , and sometimes another . i am very fearful the iury will be very apt to apply all to me , who was the man least concerned ; for i had the gout for several weeks together ; and mr. west came several times to my own lodging to see me : and for that of assassinating the king it never entred into my thoughts more or less ; but here are four gentlemen who by their own confession are sufficiently culpable ; they to wipe off their own stains , are resolved to swear me out of my life . l. c. j. what made you among them ? mr west . i do take it upon me , he was there three or four times . cap. wal. i did not stir for three weeks or a month . i came to town on ashwednesday , and then fell ill of the gout , and that continued for divers weeks ; for a months time that the king was at new-market . i am confident i was not out of my chamber , unless i made a shift to scramble to stepney , and dipp'd my foot in every well of water i came by . mr. west . my lord , i do remember this passage , the he was afraid he should not be able to draw on his boot , because he had the gout . cap. wal. i desire to know , my lord , when is the time mr. west speaks of , that i gave an account of killing the king at my lord mayors feast ? mr. west . i do not charge you positively with it ; but i had it from you or mr ferguson , but i must do the prisoner justice , he said he would be no way concerned in it . mr. att. gen. pray swear mr. blaithwaite , ( which was done . ) mr. blaithwaite , pray tell my lord and the iury , whether capt. walcot owned that to be his hand . a letter being then produced from captain walcot to mr. secretary jenkin● . mr. blathwait . my lord , i remember when captain walcot was examined before the king , he did own this to be his hand . sir geo. jeff. give it in . cl. of cr. honoured sir , iuly th . . — l. c. j. who is it directed to ? cl. of cr. there is no direction . mr. blathw . it was directed to mr. s. jenkins , as i find by the minutes i then took of it . l. c. j. here is the cover it seems . cl. of the cr. to the right honourable sir leoline jenkins , &c. honoured sir , i being in the country , and to my great trouble seeing my self in his majesties proclamation , i came last night to town , resolving to lay my self at his majesties feet , let him do with me what he pleaseth ; this it the first crime i have been guilty of , since his majestie 's restauration , and too soon by much now : if his majesty thinks my death will do him more good than my life , god's will , and his be done . vntil i sent your honour this letter , my life was in my own power , but now it is in the kings ; to whom i do most humbly propose , that if his majesty desires it , i will discover to him all that i know relating to england , scotland , or ireland ; which i suppose may be something more than the original discoverer was able to acquaint his majesty with ; especially as to ireland : there is not any thing his majesty shall think fit to ask me , but i will answer him the truth , as pertinently and as fully as i can ; my intimacy with a scotch minister , through whose hands much of the business went , i judge occasioned my knowing very much : and i do further humbly propose , that ●f his majesty thinks it advisable , i will f●llow those lords and gentlemen that are fled into holland ; as if i fled thither , and had made my escape also , and will acquaint the king , if i can find it out , what measures they resolve of taking next : i do assure his majesty , the business is laid very broad , or i am misinformed . and i am sure as to that particular , if my being with his majesty , and your honour , be not discovered , i shall be ten times abler to serve him , than either mr. freeman , or mr. carr , for they will trust neither of them . there 's scarce any thing done at court , but is immediately talk'd all the town over ; therefore if his majesty thinks what i have presumed to propose , advisable , i do then further most humbly propose , that my waiting upon his majesty may be some time within night , that your honour will acquaint me the time and place where i may wait upon you , in order to it ; and that it may be within night also , and that no body may be by , but his majesty , and your honour ; and if his majesty pleaseth to pardon my offences for the time past , he shall find i will approve my self very loyal for the future ; if not , i resolve to give his majesty no further trouble , but to lie at his mercy , let him do with me what he pleaseth . i purpose to spend much of this day in westminster-hall , at least from two of the clock to four. i beg your pardon i send your honour-this by a porter : i assure your honour , it was for no other reason , but because i would not have a third person privy to it ; and that i might have the better opportunity to make good my word to his majesty , and to approve my self . your honours most humble servant , tho : walcot . mr. att. gen. swear capt richardson . ( which was done . ) capt. richardson . my lord , on sunday at night , mr. walcot desired to speak with me , and he seemed very desirable to wait upon his majesty , and unbosom himself to the king ; mr. attorney sa●d , i should give him notice , to prepare himself for his tryal : which i did , and told him , he should want nothing to prepare himself for his tryal . yesterday morning his son came , and i sent my clerk to stand between them , and he had prepared this little paper tyed close with a thread , which my man told me he did intend to give his son ; and he desired me , since i had discovered it , i would make no use of it . the letter was to captain tracy , that was his land-lord , to speak to coll. rumsey , that he would be tender of him ; and tell him , he had ground enough to serve the king upon other men : and also to speak to mrs. west , to desire , the same thing of her husband . the last words of the note were , if you cannot be private , leave the issue to god. l. c. j. mr. walcot , have you any thing to say for your self , against this plain evidence ? capt. walcot . my lord , they have taken a great deal of pains , and made long speeches , though very little of them relating to me , though too much . coll. rumsey tells your lordship of a design they had to assassinate the king , and carrying on a war , or something like it , when i was out of the kingdom ; that at mr. sheppard's house they drew up a declaration ; and that upon mr. trenchard's saying , things were not ready . this was before i came into england : and he says , this was agreed at mr. west's chamber befo●●● came out of holland : that rombald undertook it . then he says , that after i came over , i undertook to charge the guards while the king was killing . my lord , that was a very improbable thing : for i look upon it , that there is no difference between killing the king , and securing his guards . these gentlemen , by what they have said , do sufficiently convince the court , and all that hear them , that they are sufficiently dipp'd themselves . here they combine to take away my life , to save their own . then they tell you , ' that mr. goodenough , and mr. rombald brought notes about men that were to assassinate the king ; but they do not tell your lordship i was privy to any of these notes ; nor that i knew any of them . it 's in it self very improbable , that i would ingage in so desperate an undertaking with men i never saw , nor heard of in my life . then he tells you , that mr. ferguson had been at a place where i was , & there they inquired , what mr. goodenough had done : and withal , they told you , they met at my lodging ; now that their meeting was ar'my lodging , was by coll. rumsey's appointment , i knew nothing of it . most of these meetings were by coll. rumsey's appointment , or mr. wests : i accidentally came amongst them sometimes , but all my business was , only to hear news ; nothing was agitated concerning killing the king , or levying of war , more or less , as i know of . i must confess , i did hear that there was a design by a great many lords , and gentlemen , and others , for asserting of their liberties and properties , but i was never in any consultation with them , or any message to them ; nor i never saw one of these lords , that i know of , that are said to be concerned . therefore i say , 't is very improbable i should be so far concerned , as they seem to represent it ; they met at the five bells , they allow themselves i was not at that meeting . for mr. keeling , he does not at all charge me . what i said to mr. west , relating to the business he talks of in october last , that , my lord , is out of doors in point of time ; i pray god forgive him for what he has said , i can't say more than i have . l. c. j. pray where do you live ? where is your habitation ? capt. walcot . my habitation is in ireland , my lord. l. c. j. pray , what do you here ? capt. walcot . i was invited by my lord shaftsbury to go governor to carolina . l. c. j. that design was a great while ago frustrated . capt. walcot . my lord , it was some while before i came over , and so my lord gave his commission to another . but being in england , my lord shaftsbury invited me to go to holland with him , which i did ; and when he dyed , i came to london ; i had not been here a f●rtnight , but i fell ill of the gout , and that continued three months : another thing was , my son was here , and i designed to marry him , and make provision for my younger children . my lord , i have a competent estate , i hope it is no great crime for a man of an estate to be here . l. c. j. you confess , you heard some discourse of these things ; what made you to frequent their company , when you heard these things ? capt. wal. it was my folly to do it . l. c. j. ay , but you are to understand , that folly in these cases is treason . capt. walcot . i conceive , my lord , 't is only misprision of treason . i did hear of a great deal that these gentlemen have said , and that there would be an insurrection ; but i had no hand directly , or ind●rectly in it ; nor did it enter into my thoughts , either directly or indirectly , the death of the king. when some gentlemen have talked to me of it , i abominated it , and told them , it was a ●candalous thing , a reproach to the protestant religion : for my part , i had children would bear the reproach of it , and i would have no hand in it . l. c. j. look you capt. walcot , that you did deny to do the fact , to assassinate the king , that is very true , they say so , that you did always deny it , for you stood upon this point of gallantry , a naked man you would not assassinate . and then you talk of misprision of treason : for a man to hear of treason accidentally , or occasionally , and conceal it , is but misprision : but if a man will be at a consult where treason is hatched , and will then conceal it , he is guity of treason therein ; therefore do not mistake your case . so that your point of law fails you , and every thing fails you in this case . it appears plainly by them , that you were not only privy to the consult as an auditor , but as an actor ; you chose your post , and upon this point of gallantry you would venture your self , not upon a naked man , but upon persons that would oppose you . cap. wal. certainly no man that knows me , would take me for such a very fool , that i would kill the kings guards ; as if i were not sensible , that was equal treason with the other . mr. att. gen. ill men are always fools . capt. wal. 't is clear they have laid their heads together , they have contrived to take away my life to save their own ; 't is plain enough . l. c. j. there is nothing more reasonable , nothing more just in the world , than to make use of some traitors to discover and convict the others , else would treason be hatched securely . there is no body capable ( where treason does not take effect ) of making an evidence in such a case , but some of you that are the conspirators . you do not publish it at the market-cross . and if you could gain but this point , that none that are concerned with you in the conspiracy should be witnesses , it would be the securest thing in the world to hatch treason . for you would be upon this point , either it shall take effect , and then 't is too late ; or if it do not , and the conspirators are not to be believed , then i am secure no body in the world can convict me . juror . we desire he may be asked what he says to the letter . l. c. j. well , what say you to it ? you have made proposals you will discover others , and you will give intimation to the king of the measures the rest of the conspirators were taking in ireland , and other places ; upon what design did you write that ? and what induced you to it ? cap. wal. my lord , i have told your lorship , that i have heard a great many discourses relating to that thing , and heard it mostly by mr. ferguson , with whom i had a very great intimacy , and i did according to my promise give that accompt of it ; but if his majesty would not believe me , i can't help it ; but the king was not pleased with me , because i could not descend to particulars . and i could not , because i never had been in their company , nor knew nothing , but what i had once by a private hand ; i dealt ingenuously and truly with the king , and told him what i knew . l. c. just. pray observe the contents of your letter . you made this proposal , that you being in the proc●amation , you where one of the fittest men to understand and spell out the measures of the other persons . by this it is plain , you took your self to have an intimacy , and some intrigue with the other persons that you thought were impeached . your letter does import that you had such an interest with those persons , that they would have communicated their counsels to you . cap. walc . my lord , i never spake but with mr. ferguson , who was a man they did much confide in ; and i knew very well that by my interest in mr. ferguson , i shou'd have an interest in the rest . but truly whether the duke of monmouth be there , or not , i know not . i do not know him if i meet him . i was never at any consult , never at any of these debates . l. c. just. what did you mean by this , that this was your first crime ? you knew what you was charged with , it was for high treason . capt. walc . my lord , 't is my first crime . my lord , i have heard there was an insurrection intended , i have heard of the persons that were to carry it on ; i did look upon this as a misprision of treason ; but that i ever acted in it , or intended it , i utterly deny . l. c. j. the last question is , whether you have any witnesses ? cap. wal. i have only a young man or two , if he be here , to prove the time that i was ill of the gout , and therefore it is improbable i should be so far concerned . l. c. j. i must tell you before-hand , that an argument from the topick of probability , will do you but little service , when there is positive evidence against you . this it will import you to make a little anwser too , if you can , what you meant by your application to col. rumsey ; desiring cap. tracey to speak to him and mr. west , what do you mean by that ? cap. wal. my lord , would not any man in my circumstances desire a man to deal tenderly with him ? l. c. j. well , is this young man come in ? come sir , what have you to say on the behalf of the prisoner at the bar ? or will you ask him any questions ? cap. wal. only about what time i fell ill of the gout , and how long i continued so . l. c. j. do you know about what time he fell ill of the gout , and how long it continued ? wit. my lord , i can't certainly remember the time , but i believe it was about three months ; i can't tell certainly when it began . cap. wal. my lord , it is very improbable , that when i was not able to put a shooe on , nor wear a boot , i should ingage in so hazardous and desperate an undertaking . l. c. j. have you done sir ? cap. wal. yes , my lord. mr. sol. gen. may it please your lordship . — cap. wal. the iury will take notice , here are four men to save their own lives , swear me out of mine . mr. s. gen. may it please your lordship and you gentlemen of the iury , the evidence you have heard has been very long , and i observe that cap. walcot has complained of it ; it has been delivered mostly in general terms , and is afraid you should not apprehend it aright , to see those parts wherein he is concerned , but mistake what is said in general , to be spoken against him ; i will therefore do him the justice as to recapitulate that part of the evidence that does immediately concern himself . it has been very full , and given by every one of the four witnesses that have been produced against him , besides the letter under his own hand , which is twice as many more . the first witness i shall remind you of , is mr. west , tho not produced first , yet because his evidence goes further backward ; his acquaintance began with him in last summer vacation , he became soon intimate with him , and cap. walcot did unbosom himself , and tell him that there was a design to make an insurrection ; that it was my lord shaftsbury's design that he was to be an officer , i think he said a colonel of horse ; he invited mr. west to partake with him in that design , and did propose to him the advantage of a command in the army ; but he not being qualified , declined it . he tells you further , that he did acquaint him , there was a design to assassinate the king ; and 't is easie enough to be believed ; if there was one designed , the other was too . and you see all along the only dispute was , whether the assassination should be first , or follow ; for to raise arms against the king , is directly to assassinate the king ; for it cannot end any other way with security to those that raised it . he told mr. west he would not be concerned directly in the assassination ; but in the insurection he would ; he was perswaded to come in ; this was last october discoursed with mr. west , they were to rise in november . then col. rumsey comes in , and he tells you that there was a design to rise in november . the lord shaftsbury sent him to persons concerned in the conspiracy to know in what readiness it was ; but they being disappointed of men , whom they expected to rise in the country , they did defer it at that time ; at which my lord shaftsbury being concerned , went into holland , and i think the prisoner himself hath told you he went with him . the design was not then laid aside , but still carryed on , the most material man , mr. ferguson , being in holland , there was some little stop put to it , that is , to the swift progress of it ; & therefore he was s●nt for over to manage it , as being the only man , in whom all persons had confidence . when he comes over , he brings cap. wal. along with him , mr. ferguson meets at mr. wests chamber , this mr. west and col. rumsey give an account of , they both swear it . several meetings there was , in which cap. wal. was not , and possibly at those times he might be sick of the gout , and that might occasion his not being there . but afterwards , both tell you that cap. walcot did meet at mr. wests chamber , and there was debated particularly the assassination of the king ; and it was agreed to be at rombalds house called the rye , looking upon it as a very convenient place ; as those that know it say ; there being a narrow passage that it was easie to assault , and hard for persons to esape , and with or men , thereabouts ; it was a design very likely to have suceeded . cap. walcots share in this , was not directly the assassination of the king , that he would not be concerned in , being a soldier , it was beneath him to do that ; but his part was to fight the guards , he looked upon that as the more honourable employment ; men-that were armed , to ingage them . this is proved both my mr west and col. rumsey . in the next place , gentlemen , when this did not succeed , but was prevented by the great providence of god almighty , as you have heard , they carry on the design still , and take it into their counsels , and resolved to carry it on , either at windsor , or in his passage from windsor to hampton-court ; but no place was certainly fixed upon ; and i think the latter resolution was , that it should be done at the bull feast , an entertainment that was designed here in the fields . now gentlemen , while this was carrying on , it was necessary to carry on the other part too , that is the insurrection ; and that , cap walcot is all along concerned in . he is present at the meetings in the taverns , where they discoursed concerning raising men to secure the king. this is mr. bournes evidence , that at the dragon-tavern on snow-hill , there they met to consult to secure the king and the duke . that he was present at the meeting in london , this is sworn by all , by col. rumsey , mr. west , & mr. bourne , where goodenough was to give an account what success he had in the list , made of dividing the city in several parts , and raising men out of every division , and cap. walcot met for to know what progress they had made in it . gentlemen , every one of these are overt-acts to declare his intention to kill the king , and are all high-treason . the gentleman at the bar cannot attempt to mitigate his offence , by saying he would not directly assassinate the king , but would be the man to assist in raising arms ; this make him equally guilty . to conspire to raise arms against the king , certainly that is as great a declaration of his imagination of his heart to kill the king , as anything in the world . and this being proved upon him , there is no room for any ojections for him to make ; some he hath made , not worth the mention ; but because they are those he thinks fit to put his life upon , i will take notice of them to you . he says the witnesses are not to be credited , because they have been concerned in the same conspiracy . gentlemen , because they have been concerned , therefore they are to be believed ; for who should know this , but thos● that were so concerned ? i think , gentlem. there is no good man , no honest man would desire a better evidence , for better evidence could not have been had , unless the thing had taken success , and i am sure that is far from the heart of any man , that has the heart of a christian , to wish . does he pretend to intrap these witnesses in any contradictions ? does he pretend to say that these witnesses have consulted together to make up this story to accuse him for his life ? there is nothing pretended of it , but on the contrary he owns he met these men ; but the end of his going there , was only to hear news . i thought that had not been the proper place to hear news inicertainly no man that comes there , would have been admitted me●rly for curiosity ; certainly he must bring a mind to accompany them in all their villany ; but his own confession you have for that . i think he hath hardly confidence to deny , but he was at several consults for raising of arms at mr. vvests chamber . you were when goodenough gave an account , at the green-dragon tavern . you were where discourses were of raising arms to secure the king , and nothing he has said gentlemen , to clear himself . gentlemen , here is that above all evidence ; here is almost the confession of the prisoner , the letter of his own hand . that letter ( when he see his name in the proclamation ) acknowledges it , it is his first crime he says ; what was that crime ? he was proclaimed as a traitor : he says in his letter , that his life was at the king's mercy , that if his death would do the king more service than his life , god's will be done ; that if his m●jesty would admit him to come in , and use mercy , he would tell all he knew concerning england , scotland and ireland , which he thought would be more material than any thing that another discoverer cou●d tell . this shows he hath a deeper hand than any of these men that have given this evidence : you see they accuse themselves , they confess this , and 't is a great mercy they have so done , for all your lives and liberties in the person of the king are preserved ; and god be thanked , that you are here this day to sit in judgment upon that would have deprived you of them . l. ch. j. look you , gentlemen of the jury ; here is the pr●soner at the bar indicted of high treason , and 't is for conspiring the death of the king , and for endeavouring to raise arms within his kingdom against him . you hear he d●nies himself to be guilty ; you have heard the evidence , and this does plainly appear upon what you have heard , that there was a dangerous and desperate plot upon the king , to have destroyed him , that is most certainly plain , the prisoner himself conf●ssed it , that there were several consults and meetings concerning it ; and that this had a great progress from time to time , for near half a year is very plain ; that he was at many consults is very certain ; that there was a design to raise an insurrection and war within this nation , is as plain by them all ; it was designed the last winter to have done it . the witnesses ( who are certainly the persons most capable of giving evidence ) tell you there were several times appointed , and still they were by one providence or another disappointed . all of them tell you , there was a design to kill the king and duke at the rye in hertfordshire , as they came from new-market : this is very plain too , , that th●● gentleman at the bar knew of this ; this he himself confesses , that the was at several of the consults ; and this he excuses it by , that that was bu● misprision of treason , if he did not undertake to do any thing . as to that , gentlemen , we do tell you ; the law is , that those that are at a consult for the killing of the king , or doing of a traiterous act , that this is in them high treason , this being at the consulting of it . 't is true , it would excu●● and mitigate the fact , if they should come afterwards and discover it , it might intitle them to the king's mercy ; but to be at a consult upon a treasonable design , to meet for that purpose , to ●●●r the plot laid , and a design to take the king's life , or to raise arms against him , and to say nothing of this , this is down-right treason , and 't is not misprision of treason ; his law that he relies upon fails him there . 't is very plain of his own words , he heard of this conspiracy , and he kept it secret , and says nothing of it ; and this he says is his crime that he mentioned to the king ; so he would mitigate it by saying , 't is but misprision of treason . but without doubt the meeting at several times upon this design , if he had promised and undertaken nothing in it , his keeping of it private , as he has done , makes him guilty of high treason : so that out of his own words , 't is plain that he is guilty . but then , consider what two witnesses positively prove upon him : they prove , that he did there deny to be ●ny of them that should assassinate the king ; thus says collonel rumsey , and thus says mr. west ; but he would be one of them that should fight the guards , and he did undertake to fight the guards , as both of them positively swear . this is done with circumstances of overt-acts too , as the providing of horses , and a tuck was to be prepared in order to it , and a tuck he did prepare ; whether he did go down , that is a little dark , but he did agree to go down . gentlemen , 't is plain by what mr. west said of him , that he had a design formerly in my l. shaftsbury's time to have raised war ; he had undertaken to be a collonel of horse under my lord shaftsbury , and he offered mr. west to be one of his officers under him . this is a design to raise war against the king , and declares it sufficiently . that which makes the evid●nce further plainly and greatly clear , is a letter , whereby he does submit to the king's mercy , but proposes that himself is abler to instruct the king in these matters , than any of those that had made former discoveries ; and therefore if his majesty should think fit , he would make him a full discovery , not only of things in this kingdom , but of the transactions with other kingdoms , that is , scotland and ireland , in which he takes himself to be more capable of discovering to the king than any body else , because he was concerned with the agents there ; which shews this plot hath gone a great way ; this design hath gone into other of the king's dominions , and it is to be s●ar●d , 't is larger than the king knows . 't is time to nip these treasons when they are gone so far ; certainly a more barbarous design was never thought of by mankind . we have had certainly as many ingagements to the king , as any subjects ever had to any prince whatsoever ; he has done as many acts of grace , we have lived as peaceably , as any people under a prince can ever expect to do ; he hath shewed himself with as much kindness , with as much lenity , even to his very enemies , as any prince that ever we read of ; the preservation of our religion , and the laws of the kingdom , our laws and liberties , and all our happiness depend as much upon his life , as they ever did upon the life of any prince , or ever can do ; so that we ought all to be concerned , even to the last drop of our blood , to preserve him : but how this mischievous design should enter into the hearts of men , to undertake to kill him in such villanous and barbarous a manner as this , may justly makes us astonished . gentlemen , you hear your evidence , you have a very strong evidence in this case , and stronger , i think , than could be expected in the case of treason . the iury went out for about half a quarter of an hour , and returned , and brought the prisoner in , guilty . the tryal of william hone. on thursday , july . william hone being set to the bar , and after having held up his hand , the following indictment was read . london . the iurors for our sovereign lord the king upon their oaths present , that william hone late of london labourer , with many other traitors , as a false traitor against the most illustrious and excellent prince , our sovereign lord charles the second , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france and ireland king , his natural lord ; not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil ; and the true duty and natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our sovereign lord the king , towards him our said lord the king do bear , and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing ; and with his whole strength intending the peace and common tranquillity of this kingdom of england to disturb , and war and rebellion against our said lord the king to move , and stir up ; and the government of our said lord the king within this kingdom of england to subvert ; and our said lord the king from his title , honour and kingly name of the imperial crown of this his kingdom of england , to put down , and deprive ; and our said lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put ; the second day of march , in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord charles the second , king of england , &c. the th , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , at the parish of st. michael bassishaw , in the ward of bassishaw london , aforesaid , maliciously and traiterously , with divers other traitors , to the iurors aforesaid unknown , he did conspire , compass , imagine , and intend , our said lord the king , his supream lord , not only of his kingly state , title , power , and government of this his kingdom of england , to deprive , and throw down ; but also our said lord the king , to kill , and to death to bring and put ; and the ancient government of this his kingdom of england to change , alter , and wholly to subvert ; and a miserable slaughter amongst the subjects of our said lord the king , through the whole kingdom of england , to cause and procure ; and insurrection and rebellion against our said lord the king to move and stir up , within this kingdom of england . and to fulfil ; and perfect the said most horrible treasons , and trayterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid . he the said william hone , and many other traitors , as a false traytor , then and there , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , maliciously , traiterously , and advisedly , he did assemble , meet together , and consuls with divers other evil-disposed and discontented subjects of our said lord the king , to the iurors as yet unknown , and had discourse , and did treat of , and for the executing and fulfilling their treasons , and traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid . and that the said william hone , ( together with many other traytors ) as a false traytor , maliciously , traiterously , and advisedly , then and there , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , did take upon himself , and promise to be aiding and assisting in the execution of the treasons , and traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid . and in providing of arms , and men armed , to fulfil and perfect the said treasons , traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid . and to fulfil and bring to pass the said most horrid treasons , and traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid , he the said william hone ( with many other false traitors ) as a false traitor , maliciously , traiterously , and advisedly , then and there , did procure and prepare arms , to wit , blunderbusses , carbines , and pistols , against the duty of his allegiance , against the peace of our sovereign lord the king , &c. and against the form of the statutes , &c. cl. of cr. how sayest thou , william hone , art thou guilty of this high-treason whereof thou standst indicted , or not guilty ? hone. in some measure i am guilty . capt. richardson you must say , guilty , or , not guilty . l. ch. just. you must plead to this , and the way is to confess all , or deny all . hone. i know nothing of the arms. l. ch. just. are you guilty of the treason , in conspiring the death of the king , and providing of arms for that purpose ? hone. i never provided arms , i am guilty of the conspiracy . l. ch. just. we can take notice of none of these odd kind of words you talk of , but either plainly , guilty , or not guilty . hone. my lord , i can truly say i am not guilty for i know nothing of it . l. ch. just. if you say so , you say as much as is required of you at present . hone. in that understanding of it , i am not guilty . l. ch. just. well , he says he is not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? hone. by god and my country . cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance . friday , july the th , in the morning , the court being met , and proclamation made . mr. att. gen. set william hone to the bar. cl. of cr. you the prisoner at the bar , hold up your hand . hone. i desire i may retract my plea , i would plead guilty . l. ch. just. do you confess the indictment ? hone. yes , my lord. l. ch. just. that is , that you did conspire the death of the king , and in order to that , that you did provide your self with arms to do this wicked act. hone. i never did that , my lord , i never provided any arms. l. ch. just. what were you to have done ? hone. that deposition i gave before sir william turner is true . l. ch. just. tell us what you were to have done in this bloody matter . hone. i was asked by one mr. richard goodenough to go along with him , and i asked him whither , and he would not tell me , but i understood it was to kill the king and duke of york , but he did not tell me the place . sir geo. jeff. he does not confess fully , we desire to try him . l. ch. j. look you , you have pleaded not guilty to this indictment , the king is willing , that if you be not guilty you shall not be condemned , and therefore he does desire and command the evidence against you should be publickly given , that all persons may see that you are not without cause brought to tryal , therefore swear the jury . the prisoner chal'enged none , but the jury that were sworn were , nicholas charlton . christopher pitts . robert beddingfield . iohn pelling . william winbury . thomas seaton . william rutland . thomas short. theophilus man. iohn ienew . iohn short. thomas nicholas . then proclamation for information , and for those that were bound by recognizance to appear , was made . cl. of cr. william hone , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) you gentlemen of the jury , that are sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause , he stands indicted by the name of william hone , &c. prout a●tea , in the indictment , mutatis mutandus upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and hath thereunto pleaded , not guilty , and for his trial , &c. mr. jones . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner stands indicted for the most horrid treason that ever was endeavoured to be committed in this kingdom , for traiterously conspiring to kill the king , and consulting how and in what manner it should be done , and for preparing arms for the doing of it ; we shall prove this to you , and then i hope you will find him guilty . mr. attor . gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; the part the prisoner at the bar was to act in this treason , was the killing of the king ; he was one of the persons that were to be assisting in assassinating the king's person . we will not trouble you with the large evidence of the rising , as we did yesterday ; but we will prove these things upon him , that he undertook to do it , that he was concerned with the rest of the confederates : we shall shew you this is not a new thing , but he hath been an old rebel ; for this hath not been a new project but hath been acting several years . five years ago , when the king attended my lord mayor's show , he undertook to kill him off of bow-church . we shall call our witnesses , and prove it fully upon him . mr. keeling , and mr. west . mr. josias keeling sworn . mr. attorn . gen. do you tell my lord and the jury , what you know of this prisoner at the bar. mr. keeling . the first time i saw him was at the dolphin tavern , when the arms were agreed upon , he was there then . mr. attorn . gen. who was there then ? mr. keeling . mr. west , mr. goodenough , and him i remember particularly , and some others , whom i do not at present remember , and since that he hath taken notice of me . mr. att. gen. was mr. rumbold there at that time ? mr. keeling . yes . mr. att. gen. pray at that meeting tell the jury what discourse you had , for many of these gentlemen are not the same that were on the jury yesterday . mr. keeling . it was discoursed then of the king 's coming home from new market the saturday after the fire . mr. west told mr. rumbold , he heard the king would come home that day , but says he , i don't believe it ; says rumbold , i hear he will come home on says mr. west . i hear so too . they said they hoped they would not come home on monday . says mr. west to mr. rumbold then , how many swan quills , goose quills , and crow quills , and how much sand and ink must we have ? i think the prisoner at the bar must needs remember it as well as i. it was agreed by mr. rumbold , i think i am exact in the number , and he was by and heard all the discourse . mr. att. gen. what did they mean by this ? mr. keeling . by swan quills , they meant blunderbusses ; by goose quills , muskets ; and by crow quills , pistols ; and by sand and ink , powder and bullet . he took acquaintance with me after that meeting ( for i never saw him , as i know of before ) and after some time he told me , he was one of them that was to go down to rye to assassinate the king. and since that , at a coffee-house in swithin's alley , he told me , it would never be well , till the black-bird and the gold-finch were knocked on the head ; they being terms i did not understand , i asked him what he meant , he said the king and duke of york . sir geo. jeff. you are sure that is the man ? mr. keeling . i am sure that is the man ; vvilliam hone. sir geo. jeff. what , is that the man that talked of the black-bird , and gold-finch ? mr. keeling . i am sure that is the man. mr. att. gen. now swear mr. west . sir geo. jeff. if mr. hone has a mind to ask him any questions , he may . hone. my lord , this i deny : as to the black-bird , i own it ; as to the gold-finch , i never heard a word of it till this time . sir geo. jeff. you had only a design upon the black-bird then . mr. west sworn . mr. att. gen. tell the court what you know of the meeting at the dolphin tavern . mr. west . i was there , and mr. keeling came in . there was several things said of swan quills , goose quills , and crow quills ; but this man did not come in till this discourse was over ; and i am sure i did not speak of any thing of this nature before this man in my life . but mr. goodenough did undertake to provide the men , and mr. goodenough said , he would try him , if he would make an attempt upon the duke without the king. and i asked him , whether he had seen mr. goodenough ? he told me he had ; says he , he spoke to me about a little job for the duke . mr. goodenough said , he had spoke to him fully about the thing . and i saw him often in the company of mannius , that was designed to be another of the assassinates . he was at my chamber once ; says he , master shall we do nothing ? i think he used these words , that if the duke of monmouth would be true , and appear , he could bring or threescore honest men of to'ther side the water to do the business : i asked him , what business ? says he , either a brisk push ( that i took for an insurrection ) for the two brothers : says i , what brothers do you mean ? says he , the captain and lieutenant : those were the two terms they used since the van●berring was printed . i think he was a pretty honest fellow before this time ; he was deluded by goodenough , i think , in the thing . l. ch. just. ( to mr. west . ) do you come to justify these things ? mr. west . my lord , he hath been deluded basely , and i am sorry for the poor fellow . l. ch. just. it is a very unusual thing , for one in your condition to use such expressions in such a case . sir geo. jeff. mr. west , you have been deluded . mr. att. gen. captain richardson , and sir nicholas butler . sir geo. jeff. i find he is not worthy of the mercy the king hath shewed him . mr. west . it was a word i put from me unawares . sir geo. jeff. my lord , we will give you an account of a design this man had long ago to kill the king. sir nicholas butler sworn . sir nicholas butler . my lord , i know the prisoner at the bar very well , i have known him many years , i have always known him guilty of plotting and contriving , and ready upon all occasions to embrace any thing for these purposes laid to his charge . particularly , when sir francis chaplain was lord mayor , his majesty and the duke stood at mr. waldoe's house , by reason of the angel-house being shaken . and he came to my house , and told me , he would discourse me upon some private matter , i called him into a closet , and he told me , they had a fair opportunity to take off the king and the duke at once ; i told him , that would do very well , but how will you do it ? says he , we will do it with cross-bows , we are to be half a dozen , and we will go into the steeple , where there is a window just opposite to the balcony , and a great deal of discourse we had to this purpos● . my intent was to divert him from this design , and told him how impossible it was they should escape the foot-guards , and horse guards , and multitude of people : and if he did not do the business effectually , he would be undone , and all the party . i rested satisfied he would have desisted upon this . but i knew the principles of these fifth monarchy men , and their associates , and thought it not safe to trust to his bare say so , that he would desist , but i went to the king and the duke of york , into my lord chamberlains chamber , where they came to me , and i gave them this account , and desired them to set some to watch the place , and to search if any were got into the steeple before they came ; and there was one horsal appointed , that did accordingly watch them , but none came : upon which some good-willers to it have reported that it was a sham-business , but i think that was not well done . but the thing was real , and when he was examined before the king in the secretary's office , he did confess all these things that i charged him with . mr. att. gen. sir nicholas butler , had you any discourse of killing the king at this time ? sir nicholas butler . no ; at last they did understand i kept a correspondence at court , and then they would tell me no more . mr. attorn . gen. since he was taken , what did he say about this matter ? sir nicholas butler . about this matter he did acquaint divers , he was one that was to kill the king and the duke . captain richardson sworn . capt. richardson . sir nicholas butler asked him in my presence ( i went along with sir nicholas when he examined him ) as to this thing , how he was concerned ? he said mr. goodenough came to him , and told him , he wanted labourers ; he asked him , for what ? at last he did confess that mr. goodenough did tell him , it was to kill the king and the duke of york ; he did confess that he did agree to it , and that he would be one of them . he did likewise say , that after , at another meeting , he was for killing the king , and saving the duke ; but goodenough was for both . sir nicholas butler . he said he was to have l. capt. richardson . he said he did not desire to stir , and goodenough told him he should have l. to buy him horse and armor : and told us the business of rye ; the place he did not know , but said it was ●●● place where the king was to be murdered . this is the substance of the examination taken ; sir geo. jeff. tho the p●l●ner at the bar did partly make a confession , yet for the satisfaction of the world. ●y lo●d gave us leave to call our witnesses . capt. richardson . that which sir nicholas says about the cross-bows , he did own , but — l. ch. j. what say you to this treasonable design of yours , in undertaking to kill the king , in hiring your self out to be one of the persons that should have executed this traiterous design , this horrid murder , to have killed the king at the rye ? hone. i say , i did not know the place where , nor when , at the time it was proposed about the rye . l. ch. j. but what do you say as to the undertaking to kill the king ? the other is but a circumstance , this is the material point . hone. my lord , i was drawn into it by mr. richard goodenough . l. ch. j. you hear what sir nicholas butler says of the cross-bows you designed to kill the king with , what say you to that ? hone. i say , there was a person told me of such a thing ; and i told sir nicholas immediately of it . the person that told me was a shop-keeper , and i don't know him . sir nicholas butler . you named three persons to the king , that were confederates with you , but you came to me of your self . l. ch. j. look you , your self was one of the wicked undertakers in that traiterous design . hone. no , i did never design it , but i was told it . l. ch. j. ay , that your self and some other good fellows were ingaged in the design . hone. i was not ingaged , only as i was told by a fellow , that there was a shop-keeper lived hard by that would do such a thing , and i immediately told sir nicholas butler . l. ch. j. come , 't is in vain for you to mince the matter , for here is a full evidence against you : the best you can do for your advantage now , is to consider well with your self , and repent of this wicked design . what religion do you profess ? hone. religion , my lord ? l. ch. j. ay , any or none ? hone. my lord , i hear several sorts of men , sometimes baptists , sometimes independents , and sometimes the presbyterians . l. ch. j. but regard none . look you , gentlemen of the jury , you hear a plain case of a barbarous murder designed upon the king , one of the horridest treasons that hath been heard of in the world , to have shot the king and the duke of york in their coaches , as they were coming upon the road. you have had full evidence of this man 's being one of them ; and therefore i am of opinion , that you must find him guilty . so the iury brought the prisoner in , guilty , without going out of court. the tryal of the lord russel . july . . my lord russel was set to the bar , within the bar. cl. of the crown . william russel , hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) then this indictment was read , which is as followeth . london . the iurors of our soveraign lord the king upon their oaths present , that william russel late of london esq , together with other false traitors , as a false traitor against the most illustrious and excellent prince , our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france and ireland king , his natural lord ; not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil ; and the true duty and natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our soveraign lord the king , towards him our said lord the king do bear , and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing ; and with his whole strength intending the peace and comm●n tranquility of this kingdom of england to disturb , and war and rebellion against our said lord the king to move , and stir up ; and the government of our said lord the king within this kingdom of england to subvert ; and our said lord the king from his title , honour , and kingly name of the imperial crown of this his kingdom of england , to put down , and deprive ; and our said lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put ; the second day of november , in the year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second , king of england , &c. the th , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , at the parish of st. michael bassishaw , in the w●rd of bassishaw london , aforesaid , maliciously and traiterously , with divers other traitors , to the iurors . aforesaid unknown , be did conspire , compass , imagine and intend , our said lord the king , his supream lord , not only of his kingly state , title , power , and government of this his kingdom of england , to deprive , and throw down ; but also our said lord the king , to kill , and to death to bring and put ; and the ancient government of this his kingdom of england to change , alter , and wholly to subvert ; and a miserable slaughter amongst the subject of our said lord the king , through his whole kingdom of england , to cause and procure ; and insurrection and rebellion against our said lord the king to move , procure , and stir up , within this kingdom of england . and to fulfil and perfect the said most horrible treasons , and trayterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid , he the said william russel , together with other false traitors , as a false traytor , then and there , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , maliciously , traiterously , and advisedly , between themselves , and with divers other traitors , to the iurors aforesaid unknown , they did meet together , consult , agree , and conclude , and every of them , then and there , did consult agree , and conclude , insurrection and rebellion against our sover●ign lord the king , within this kingdom of england , to move and stir up ; and the guards for the preservation of the person of our said lord the king , to seize and destroy , against the duty of his allegiance , against the peace , &c. and also against the form of the statutes , &c. cl. of cr. how sayest thou , art thou guilty , or not guilty ? l. russel . my lord , may i not have a copy of the matter of fact laid against me , that i may know what to answer to it ? l. ch. just. my lord , we can grant you nothing till you have pleaded . therefore that which is put to you now is , whether you say you are guilty , or not guilty ? l. russel . my lord , i 'am not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? l. russel . by god and my countrey . cl. of cr , god send thee a good deliverance . l. russel . my lord i thought a prisoner had never been arraigned and tryed at the same time , i have been a close prisoner . l. ch. j. for crimes of this nature , my lord , we do it continually . l. russel . it is hard , my lord. mr. att. gen. my lord hath no reason to complain for want of notice , for since monday seven-night he had notice of his trial , and the matters alleged against him he had notice of , for questions were put to him about this matter , he hath been fairly dealt with , he hath had the liberty of counsel to advise him ; there hath been no sort of liberty denyed him , which becomes any subject to have in this condition . l. ch. j. my lord , i do not know whether you hear mr. attourney . he says your lordship hath had a great deal of favour shown you already , in that you have been acquainted with the crimes for which you are now indicted , that you have had a great deal of warning given you , that you have had the liberty of counsel , which hath not been known granted to any under your lordships circumstances . he says , he doubts not but your lordship is prepared for your defence , because you have had so much knowledg , and warning of the time and matter for which you were to be called in question . l. russel . my lord , i am much to seek , i only heard some general questions , and i have witnesses , that i believe are not yet in town , nor will be , i believe , till night ; i think it very hard i can't have one day more . mr. attorn . gen. munday seven-night your lordship had notice . l. russel . i did not know the matter i was charged with . mr. attorn . gen. yes certainly , for i was with you my self , my lord ; and those questions you were examined upon , were a favour to you , that you might know what the matter was you were accused of . l. ch. j. my lord , without the king's consent we can't put off the trial ; if the king's council think not fit to put it off , we can't grant your lordship's request in this case . l. russel . i would desire a copy of the pannel of the jury , that i might consider of it ; for how else can i make any just challenge ? i thought the law had been very favourable to men upon their lives ; and therefore it had allowed people to have some little notice . l. ch. j. hath not your lordship had a copy of the pannel ? i think your lordship was allowed one , we gave order your lordship should have a copy of the pannel . mr. att. g. we did indulge him so far , that he might have a note of all the men returned . l. russel . i never had a copy of the pannel . l. ch. j. it was the fault of your lordship's servants then ; for i gave order for it my self . 't is such a favour , that in regard a man's life lies at stake , we never did deny it , to my knowledg . and therefore in this case i gave order to the secondary to deliver a copy . i know the king did not design to be hard upon my lord in his tryal , but that he should have as fair a tryal as ever any noble person had . l. russel . i pray i may have a copy then . sir g. jeff. if my lord had sent his agents , and it had been refused , there had been something in it . mr. att. gen. secondary normansel was with me , and i gave him my allowance , tho it was not his right . l. ch. just. that my lord may not be surprized , what think you of giving my lord time till the afternoon , and try some of the rest in the mean time ? mr. att. gen. truly , my lord , if i could imagine it were possible for my lord to have any witnesses , i should not be against it . l. russel . 't is very hard . mr. att. gen. do not say so , the king does not deal hardly with you , but i am afraid it will appear you would have dealt more hardly with the king : you would not have given the king an hours notice for saving his life . secondary trotman . i gave my brother normansell a copy of the pannel on my side , and hear that my brother normansell hath said that he delivered a copy . then secondary normansell was sent for , and the court staied for him some time . mr. atwood . my lord , a gentleman told me , he did not know whether it was fit , till he had consulted the attorny general ; afterwards i had a copy as it stood then , not as it is now . mr. attor . gen. i desire my lord may be asked who he sent for it ? lord russel . i did not send for it ; i inquired , and they said it would be refused . mr. attwood . no , the gentleman had it with the fair perriwig . l. ch. just. it was delivered to your servant , or agent , what did you do with it ? l. russel's gent. sir , the gentleman gave me out of a book some names . sir geo. jeff. what did you do with them ? l. russel's gent. i writ them down , they were not perfect , i did not know what they were . l. ch. just. sir , you were to blame not to deliver it to my lord. l. russel's gent. i was not bound to deliver an imperfect thing to my lord. l. ch. just. sir , you should have consulted your lords advantage , so as to have delivered any thing for his good . l. russel's gent. my lord was in the tower , i was not admitted to my lord. mr. attor . gen. did you give it to my lady ? l. russel's gent. yes , those names i had , my lady had . sir geo. jeff. how long ago was it ? mr. attwood . tuesday or wednesday last . l. ch. just. ( to lord russel ' s servant . ) look you , sir , when had you this ? l. russel . i had no pannel , i will assure you , delivered me ; i had some names of people that they said were usually on juries . l. ch. just. they were the names of the jury . l. russel . they were only the names of them that were like to be of the jury , no other pannel came to me . l. ch. j. my lord , there can be no other copy given , but the same that was delivered ; for your lordship does know in this case , any person accused , as your lordship is , may challenge ; and therefore there is a return generally of score , or score , and these are returned in case of your lordships challenge . when you have challenged so many as you please , then the men that stand after your challenge are to be of the jury : and therefore this is not like a pannel made up by the sheriff , in ordinary causes between man and man ; there they make a formal pannel , from which they cannot depart , when that is once returned ; but herein criminal cases , because of the challenge , they return either or : and i presume your lordship was attended with the names delivered . sir geo. jeff. how many names was delivered ? mr. atwood . above . l. russel . i had nothing of a pannel delivered to me , but some names . l. ch. just. there was never any formal pannel delivered to any person accused : the copy of it is in paper always . l. russel . how can i know who to challenge ? l. ch. j. my lord , the copy of it is in your hands ; your lordship hath been deceived in this , by not understanding the true nature of these things : if we were to give you a new one , we could give you but such an one . l. russel . i had no paper from the true officer . l. ch. just. no , but from your servant . mr. attor . gen. my lord , you will have cause to complain , if they are not the same men we now shall call . l. ch. j. my lord , that paper will guide your lordship in your challenges . l. russel . my lord , i did not mind it , i put it away . my lord , with your favour , i must needs insist upon having a pannel , and that you will put it off till the afternoon ; i have a witness that is not in town . my counsel told me it was never done , or very seldome , arraigning and trying at the same time ; except in case of common malefactors . l. ch. j. mr. attorney , why may not this tryal be respited till the afternoon ? mr. attor . gen. pray call the jury . l. ch. j. my lord , the kings counsel think it not reasonable to put off the tryal longer , and we can't put it off without their consent in this case . l. russel . my lord , 't is hard , i thought the law had allowed a pretty deal of favour to a man when he came upon his life . how can i know to except against men , that i never heard or saw one of them . cl. of cr. you the prisoner at the bar ; those good men that have been now called , and here appear , are to pass between you and our soveraign lord the king , upon your life or death , if you challenge any of them , you must speak as they come to the book to be sworn , before they are sworn . l. russel . my lord , may not i have the use of pen , ink , and paper ? court. yes , my lord. l. russel . my lord , may i make use of any papers i have ? l. ch. just. yes by all means . l. russel . may i have some body write to help my memory ? mr. att. gen. yes , a servant . l. ch. just. any of your servants shall assist you in writing any thing you please for you . l. russel . my wife is here my lord to do it . l. ch. just. if my lady please to give her self the trouble . mr. att. gen. my lord , you may have two persons to write for you if you please . l. russel . my lord , here hath been a name read , that i never saw in the list of the jury i had , i heard sir andrew foster called . l. ch. just. he is not called to be of the jury . cl. of cr. call iohn martin . he appears . l. russel . are you a freeholder of s. a year , i hope none are allowed in the pannel , but those that have freeholds ? l. ch. just. there is no pannel made in london by freeholders , we have very few freeholders capable of being impannel'd , because the estates of the city belong much to the nobility and gentlemen that live abroad , and to corporations : therefore in the city of london the challenge of freeholders is excepted . l. russel . my lord , i thought it had been always so , and the law had been clear in that case throughout england , that no man ought to be tryed for his life , but by those that have freeholds . my lord , i remember i read the statute of h. . where 't is positive , that no persons shall be judged in cases of life and death but by those that have s. a year . l. ch. just. my lord , that statute extends not to this case . read the statute . cl. of cr. whereas perjury is much used in the city of london upon persons , &c. l. ch. just. is this the statute your lordship has read ? l. russel . this is not in the case of life and death . l. ch. just. it is not , my lord. l. russel . that that i read is positive . and if your lordship will not allow of it , i desire my counsel may come and argue it , for 't is a matter of law , and i can't argue it , whether the jury are not to be freeholders . mr. ser. jefferies . there is nothing mentioned in that statute with relation to the city of london indeed , but the necessity of the thing requires it . mr. att. gen. it will not be material , 't is a collateral point ; for most of the jury have freeholds . l. ch. just. do you allow the exception ? mr. att. gen. no , my lord. l. ch. justice . therefore we must , if my lord stand upon it , hear his counsel . my lord , we will hear your counsel ; what counsel do you desire , my lord ? l. russel . the counsel that were allotted me . l. ch. just. no , you must have counsel assigned by us . the counsel that was assigned elsewhere signifies nothing . l. russel . mr. pollexfen , mr. holt , and mr. ward . the said persons were called , and came into court. l. ch. just. ( to the counsel . ) gentlemen , my lord here desires counsel , you are here assigned as counsel for my lord russel that is at the barr , 't is concerning a thing wherein he doubts the law , he would except to the jury upon this account , to the poll , because they have not freehold within the city of london , and he desires you may be assigned his counsel to make it out that this is a cause of challenge . mr. att. gen. 't is a case of treason , mr. pollexfen . mr. ward . we take it so . mr. pollexfen . my lord , perhaps if we had more consideration of it we should speak more , but if your lordship pleases to hear us what we can say ; first , we take it , with submission , at common law a freehold was necessary to make a man juryman . but that which falls out in this case is the statute of h. . c. . which statute i suppose is here in court , that statute says this ( if you please i will quote the substance of it ) that none shall be admitted to pass upon any inquest upon the tryal of the death of a man , except he have lands and tenements of the yearly value of s. now we are here i think within the words of the statute , and i take it to be no question at all were we not in a city and county . i think this would be no question upon any tryal in any county at large . the statute does not make any exception or distinguishment between cities and counties at large , but the words are general , as i have opened them . my lord , the statute does also provide in cases of freehold or marks . now , my lord , to prove this statute extends to london , tho a city and county , there are other statutes that have been made subsequent make it plain that it does so extend . but before i speak to them , there is , ● inst. fo . . that takes notice of this statute , and speaks it generally that the freehold ought to be in the same county , nor do i remember to have seen any book that distinguishes between counties at large and cities and counties . but statutes that have been made concerning cities and counties are a plain declaration that this is meant of juries both in cities and counties . i will mention the statute h. . c. . the substance of the statute is this , it takes notice that there were challenges in london for that they had not s. per ann. and that this challenge was to be made in the wards , which are the same with hundreds in the counties , so this statute is made to take away the challenge of s. freehold . this statute of h. . that takes away the challenge in london for not having s. is , with submission , a strong evidence and authority that it was before that time a good challenge , for otherwise to what end should they make a statute to take away the challenge , unless it were before a good cause of challenge . in the next place h. . c. . that extends to civil causes in london , and says , that in london jurors shall ( but provides only for london in civil causes ) be admitted in civil causes , that have goods to the value of marks . my lord , if that first statute , or the common law , had not extended to require freeholds in london , then there would have been no need of this statute that was made to inable men to be jurors that had goods to the value of marks . so that we take it to be good authority that by the common law freehold was required in all civil causes . then there is another statute h. . . and that will be a strong evidence to shew what the law is , for the statute says , in cities and burroughs , in tryals of murder and felony , if a freeman of the city of london is to be tried , the freemen shall be upon the jury , tho' they have not freehold , and then there is a proviso , that for knights and esquires that are out of the burrough , tho' they are arraigned in the burrough , that extends not to them , tho' in cases of murder and felony . as for this statute , we take this sense of it , first that it does not extend to treasons , for when it only names murders , and felonies , that makes no alteration as to treason , therefore that stands as before : but if there be any alteration , that extends only to freemen and burgesses that are to be tried , but not to knights and esquires , so that if we were in a case of felony and murder , i think we are not concerned in this statute , for we are no freeman nor burgesse , but we are an esquire , and therefore ought to be tryed by freeholders : so that for the law we relye upon these statutes , that we have looked upon as strong evidence , that there ought to be in the tryal of the life of a man , especially for treason , freeholders . first , if it were in civil causes , if this qualification be not in jury-men then an attaint would lye ; the penalty in an attaint is , that their houses should be pulled down , &c. this is provided by the law , to the intent the jury may be careful to go according to their evidence . 't is true , no attaint does lie in in criminal causes , but if so be in civil causes there be required freeholders , and an attaint lies if there be not , 't is not reasonable to think but there should be as great regard to the life of a man , as to his estate . next , my lord , i do not know any law that sets any kind of qualification but this of freehold , so that be the persons of what condition or nature soever ( supposing they be not outlawed ) yet these persons , if this law be not in effect , may then serve , and be put upon the life of a man. these are the reasons , my lord , for which we apprehend they ought to be freeholders . mr. holt. my lord , i would desire one word of the same side : we insist in this case upon these two things ; first , we conceive by the common law , every jury-man ought to have a free-hold , we have good authority for it , cokes first institutes , but if that were not so , i think the statute mr. pollexfen hath first mentioned , h. . c. . to be express in this point . my lord , the statute in the preamble does recite all the mischiefs , it says great mischiefs , ensued by iuries that were made up of persons that had not estates sufficient ; in what ? as well in the case of the death of a man , as in the case of free-hold between party and party : the statute reciting this mischief , does in express words , provide two remedies for the same in these cases : first on the life or death of a man , the jury or inquest , to be taken , shall have s. per ann. and so between party and party marks , so that this being the tryal of the death of a man , it is interpreted by stamford a. that is in all cases where a man is arraigned for his life , that is within the express words of the statute . besides this exposition that hath been put upon the statute , my lord , it does seem that the judgment of several parliaments hath been accordingly in severall times and ages . my lord , to instance in one statute that hath not been mentioned , and that is the of h. . c. . that does give the king power to award commissions of oyer and terminer , for tryals in any county of england . and that ( says the statute ) in such cases no challenge to the shire or hundred shall be allowed ; that is , you shall not challenge the jury in such a case , because they have not free-hold , are not of the county where the treason was committed ; but that upon the tryal challenge for lack of free-hold of s. a year shall be allowed , though it alters the manner of trying treason by the common law ; so that , my lord , here is the opinion of that very parliament ; that though it took away the usual method of tryals , yet it saves the prisoners challenge for want of free-hold . now indeed that statute is repealed ; but i mention it as to the proviso that it shews the judgment of that parliament at that time : my lord , those other statutes that have been made to regulate cities and towns corporate , why were they made ? h. . that no free-hold should be allowed , that shews that h. . did extend to these cases . but my lord , these statutes that shew the judgment of the parliament , sufficient to our purpose , do not extend to this case ; the statute goes only to murders and felonies , but not to treasons : and we are in the case of a penal statute , and concerning the life and death of a man , which ought to be taken strictly , it ousts the prisoner of a benefit ; and by parity of reason , if treason be not mentioned , your lordship can't by equity extend it to it , when it only mentions inferiour offences , and takes away the benefit in lower cases : like the case of the bishop of winchester , where the statute set down d●an and chapters , and other ecclesiastical persons , it shall not extend to bishops , because it begins with persons of an inferiour nature : no more shall murder and felony extend to treason . but further the statute only concerns freemen , for there is an express proviso in the case : for in case any knight , or esquire come to be tryed in the place , he has his benefit as before . my lord , we are in this case , as in the case not mentioned in the statute , we are not a freeman of london . my lord , there is another thing h. . c. . why there was not only requisite at the common-law , that the jurors had sufficient free-hold , but it was required it should be in the hundred ; and free-hold in the wards in the city is the same with free-hold in the hundreds in the country : so that the want of freehold in the hundred , was a good cause of challenge . so that i think it will hardly be denied , but that a jury that passes upon the life of a man , ought by the law , by the statute , and by the judgment of the parliament , to have free-hold . where is there then any statute whatsoever that makes a difference in this case , between london and other counties ? we are in the case of treason , we have taken our exceptions , and on behalf of the prisoner at the bar we pray the challenge may be allowed . mr. ward . my lord , i shall be short , because mr. pollexfen has observed these things so particularly already . i observe the statute of h. . is a general statute , and extends throughout the realm : now when the thing is thus general , there is no room to except particulars . and in this case 't is within the very words of the law , if the words be so generally penned in the negative , then we conceive there is no construction to be made upon them , unless some subsequent parliament alter it . coke's institutes . where 't is said in treason as well as any thing else , upon h. . there shall be freeholds . if they have provided in civil and other criminal causes , it were strange that this should be casus omissus , but there is no construction against a negative law. for the parliament taking care of the city of london ( as the subsequent statutes say ) that he that hath marks shall pass in civil causes , and then it says in murders and felonies , and that only confined to the freemen of the place , does sufficiently explain the law , where 't is not altered by any subsequent act , therefore i desire the challenge may be admitted . mr. att. gen. my lord , these gentlemens foundation is not good , for they prove it not by any books , that at common-law it was requisite for a juryman to have freehold . my lord , i deny their foundation , there is no such law , and at this day in all criminal cases where the statute does not direct it , as for riots and other informations for misdemeanour , there is no law restrains them , and they may be tryed by any men they have no exception against . then h. . says , none shall be admitted to pass upon the death of a man , ( i take it to extend to all capital matters , though it is pretty odly expressed ; for when a man is accused of other felonies and high treasons , 't is of the death of a man ) unless he have lands or tenements , of the yearly value of s. but i will take it as these gentlemen do at this time , it not being so at common-law , nor in other criminal cases , but what are provided for by the statute : as to other matters of felony and murder , no doubt there these challenges are to be taken upon the statute , but not for treason , because the statute of queen mary does expresly repeal that statute ; and no statute since takes away the force of that of queen mary ; that all tryals for treason shall be as at the common-law ; and according to this the constant practice in all cities ( not only london ) where persons have been indicted for high treason hath been . there was never any such thing pretended : most of these gentlemen have freeholds , but we would not have this point lost to the city of london ; so that the statute they speak of , and the interpretations of the several other statutes too , are to no purpose ; for we say by common-law all causes might be tryed by any persons , against whom there was not sufficient cause of challenge ; and the common-law is by that statute restored in this point . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i have little to say ; mr. attorney hath given a true answer to it , the foundation does fail them . it was not necessary at common-law , for a jury-man to have freehold : but then they must shew you , my lord , it is altered , and made necessary . the statute of h. . does not seem to extend to treason , but if it did , 't is now out of doors , by that of queen mary , whereby all tryals of treason are reduced to the common-law . this is that we answer , they fail in their foundation , they do not make it out , that it was necessary for a jury-man at common-law to have freehold . sir geo. jeff. my lord , i confess they have cited several acts of parliament , and upon them lay their foundation , and draw inferences from them : but they will find , that in several acts of parliament which they have quoted , there is a particular regard had for the preservation of the constant usage and custom for tryals within the city of london . that notwithstanding several acts of parliament have in other places ascertained the value of jurors ; yet they had still an eye that the city of london should continue in its usages . i think it will be necessary to put you in mind of the case of the city of worcester . it would be very hard , say they , because an attaint does not lye in criminal matters ; if you intend by that to have people of ability , 't is well known , that the ablest people in the city of london , have scarce any freehold in it ; for that most of the inheritances of the city of london remain in the nobility and in corporations . now in the case of my lord russel , he hath a peremptory challenge to , and i think i may adventure to say , there can scarce be more that can call themselves freeholders in london ; consider the consequence then , treason should be committed in the city of london , and there would not be enow in the city of london to try it . in the case of the quo-warranto brought against the city of worcester , to know by what warrant several took upon them the offices of aldermen ; the gentlemen at the bar objected that it was reasonable that no freehold should be determined , but by freeholders . but the judges of the kings-bench , ( the court being full ) for the necessity of the thing , lest there might not be sufficient freeholders in the city , having sent one of the judges of that court to your lorships of the common-pleas , for that reason did agree the challenge was not good . i know these gentlemen will please to remember the case ; so that i say , as in one case we ought to be tender of the life of the prisoner , so we ought surely to be tender of the life of the king , otherwise it may so happen , that the kings life may be incompassed , and treason commited in the city , and there would be no way in the world to try it ; therefore we pray for the king the challenge may be over-ruled . m. north. my lord , it is the practice to make the venire facias , without mentioning freehold , for it does not command , that they return so many men that have freehold , but probos & legales homines de visineto ; therefore at the common-law , those were good inquests to try any man that were not excommunicated , nor under any out-law . 't is true , there are statutes that say , all jury-men shall have freehold ; but we say these statutes do not extend to the city of london , but that it is governed by its own customs ; and we say it is the custom that citizens of ability have been returned , that have no freehold . but granting what we do not , but by way of supposal , my lord , it does not extend to this case , because tryals are to be according to the use at common-law , by the statute of queen mary , which does set them at large again ; and that is the reason the prisoner , in this case , hath his challenge for , and is in other cases restrained to ; so that we say , these men of ability are good , and there is no statute affects them . l.c.j. mr. pollexfen , do you find any judgment , that in cases of treason by common-law , they might except for want of freehold ? have you any resolution in the case ? mr. pollexf . i think there are books that say , at common-law there must be freehold . l. ch. just. what , in treason ? mr. pollexfen . no , my lord. l. ch. just. unless you speak of treason , you do not speak ad idem . for i do take it that in cases of treason , or in cases of felony , at the common law , they had no liberty to except to jurors , that they had not any freehold , but that at the common law any good and lawful men might pass . then take as introductive of a new law the statute of h. . i am of the mind that this statute of h. . peradventure may extend to treasons and felonies ; but when the statute of queen mary comes and says , all tryals shall be by such evidence , and in such manner , as by common law they ought to have been , i do not see how it is possible to make an objection afterwards of this nature . for , admitting this act of parliament of h. . had altered the common law , and given a challenge , why then when the statute of queen mary comes and sets all tryals at large in the case of treasons , then certainly the challenge is gone again , and i doubt you will not find one exception in this case , ever since that statute concerning the jurys freehold in cases of treason , but it hath generally passed otherwise , and there hath not been any ever excepted ; i doubt it will be a very hard thing to maintain such a challenge now . here are my lords and brothers will be pleased to deliver their opinions . it is a business of great consequence , not only for this noble person at the bar , but for all other persons . l. ch. baron . i agree with your lordship perfectly , but if the counsel had laid a right foundation that it had been so at common law , there had been much said ; but i take it at common law there was no challenge for want of freehold , and i am induced to think so , for otherwise what needed the statute of h. . been made ? but whether it extend to treason or no , i am not so clear . and if it did , it 's wiped off again by that of queen mary , which reduces all to the common law tryal . mr. just. wyndham . i am of the same opinion : i conceive at common law , lack of free-hold no good cause of challenge . 't is true , that challenge is given in some cases by act of parliament , yet i doubt whether it extend to a thing of so high nature as treason , for other statutes have not mentioned any thing of treason . but suppose . h. . did extend to it , yet it is very plain , the statute of . and . queen mary hath set all at large again . they are to be good and lawful men , and i do not find that any thing of the lawfulness must be the freehold . and therefore , i conceive this is no just exception in this case . mr. just. iones . my lord , i am of the same opinion . i am of opinion that the common law did not require freehold to be a good cause of challenge , in the case of treason , and the rather , because at the common law a man that was indicted of high treason , had liberty to challenge , peremptorily , to the number of . persons . my lord , if the common law be altered by the statute of h. . yet i take it , that the statute of . and . ph. and m. does restore the common law in this particular point . for whereas there was a statue of h. . to restrain the prisoner to the number of , for his challenge , now the statute restoring it to common law , the prisoner hath his challenge to , as he had before that statute of h. . so i take it , the king shall have his priviledge also to try a prisoner for treason , by persons that have not freehold . mr. just. charlton . i am of the same opinion . and truly the rather , because no president hath been offered of any such challenge before , and many men have suffered , and sure if it could have been , many would have made use of it . mr. just. levins . i am of opinion 't is not to be allowed . i do not think my self driven to the necessity to determine now whether freehold was a good challenge at common law in point of treason . i think the statute of ph. and m. hath restored the tryals to the common law. what was the common law ? the common law is the custom of england , which is other in cities than in countries , and the custom of london is part of that common law. so , tho it be a cause of challenge in a county at large , yet it is not a cause of challenge in cities , where freeholders are not to be found . now that which satifies me is , that this custom is restored by the statute of ph. and m. because never such a challenge hath been . and it is known when were tryed for treason together in this very place , and one of them a notable cunning lawyer , and if such a challenge were to have been allowed , no doubt he would have made use of it , but the challenge was not taken , and if he had made such a challenge , and it had been allowed , perhaps he could not have been tried : that was cook. i have heard several persons tryed for treason my self , and never heard it taken . therefore i am of opinion , that before any statute was made in this case , it was the custom in london to try without freeholds , and since by the statute of queen mary 't is restored . mr. baron streete . i think there was no such challenge at common law. the jury were only to be probos & legales homines , and no more , till the statute made it so , but there is a particular reservation for corporations . and certainly , if this should be admitted to be a good challenge , tho' it were between party and party , there would be in some corporations a perfect failure of justice . so that without doubt at common law there was no such challenge . as for the statute of h. . 't is gone by that of queen mary . if this were admitted within london , nothing would be more mischievous to this corporation . methinks we have been very nice in this matter , when the life of the king is at stake , and all the customs and priviledges of the city of london seem to be levelled at in this point . i am of the opinion with the rest of the judges , that this challenge ought to be over-ruled . justice withins . i am of the same opinion . l. ch. just. my lord , the court is of opinion , upon hearing your counsel , and the kings , that it is no good challenge to a jury in a case of treason , that he has not freehold within the city . but i must tell your lordship withall , that your lordship has nothing of hardship in this case , for notwithstanding that , i must tell you , you will have as good a jury , and better than you should have had in a country of l. or s. a year freeholders . the reason of the law for freeholds is , that no slight persons should be put upon a jury , where the life of a man or his estate comes in question , but in the city the persons that are impannell'd are men of quality and substance , men that have a great deal to lose , and therefore your lordship hath the same in substance , as if a challenge was allowed of freehold . it will be no kind of prejudice to your lordship in this case , therefore , if you please , apply your self as the jury is called , and make your exceptions , if you shall make any . l. ch. just. mr. bollexfen , you shall have liberty to stay any where here , if you please . counsel . here is such a great crowd , my lord , we have no room . then the iurymen were called , and after the lord russel had challenged one and thirty of them , the iury sworn were as follows . jur. iohn martin . william rouse . iervas seaton . william fashion . thomas short. george toriano . william butler . iames pickering . thomas ieve . hugh noden . robert brough . thomas omeby . then was made proclamation for information . cl. of cr. william russel esq hold up thy hand . ( which he did ) . you of the jury look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause . he stands indicted by the name of — pront before in the indictment . upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto pleaded not guilty , and for his tryal hath put himself upon his country , which country you are : your charge is to inquire whether he be guilty of this high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty : if you find him guilty , you shall inquire , &c. mr. north. may it please your lordship , and you that are sworn , the prisoner at the bar stands charged in this indictment with no less than the conspiring the death of the kings majesty , and that in order to the same , he did , with other traitors named in the indictment , and others not known , . november , in the th year of this king , in the parish of bassishawe , within the city of london , meet and conspire together to bring our soveraign lord the king to death , to raise war and rebellion against him , and to massacre his subjects . and in order to compass these wicked designs , there being assembled , did conclude to seize the kings guards , and his majesties person . this is the charge , the defendant says he is not guilty , if we prove it upon him , it will be your duty to find it . mr. att. gen. my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , most of our evidence against this honourable person at the bar is to this purpose , this person , the duke of monmouth , my lord gray , sir thomas armstrong , and mr. ferguson , they were the council of state , as i may call them , to give forth directions for the general rising that hath appeared was to have been within this kingdom . the rising was of great concern and expence , and must be managed by persons of interest , prudence , and great secre●e . these gentlemen had frequent meeting in october and november last ( for then , you may refresh your memories again , was the general rising to be ) and there they did consult how to manage the rising , they consulted how to seize the king's guards ; and this noble person being mixed with these others , especially with ferguson , who with others of an inferior rank was also ingaged in a cabal for managing worser things ( tho' this is bad enough ) ; at several meetings they receive messages from my lord shaftsbury touching the rising . they being looked upon as the persons that were to conclude and settle the time and all circumstances about it . we shall make it appear to you in the course of our evidence , that those underlings ( for this was the great consult , and moved all the other wheels ) who managed the assassination , did take notice that these lords and gentlemen of quality were to manage and steer the whole business of the rising . it seems these gentlemen could not give the earl of shaftsbury satisfaction to his mind , for he pressed them to keep their day , which was the th of november last , but the honourable person at the bar , and the rest , made him this answer , that mr. trenchard had failed them , for that he had promised to have foot and or horse at four hours warning , but now it was come to pass , he could not perform it , that some persons in the west would not joyn with them , and therefore at this time they could not proceed , and therefore they must defer the day . and as a council , they sent my lord shaftsbury word he must be contented , they had otherwise resolved , and thereupon my lord shaftsbury went away , and mr. ferguson with him . to carry on this practice they took others into their council sir thomas armstrong was left out , and there falling that scandalous report upon my lord gray he was to be left out , and then there was to be a new council of six , whereas the inferior council to manage the assassination was seven . at this council there was this honourable person at the bar , the duke of monmouth , my lord howard , and another honourable person , who i am sorry to name upon this account , who hath this morning prevented the hand of justice upon himself , my lord of essex , and collonel sidney , and mr. hambden : these six had their frequent consults at this honourable persons house ; for they had excluded sir thomas armstrong , and my lord gray , for these gentlemen would have the face of religion ; and my lord gray was in their esteem so scandalous , that they thought that would not prevail with the people , if he was of the council . there they debated how they should make this rising , after several consultations they came to this resolution , that before they did fall upon this rising , they should have an exact accompt both of the time and method of the scotch rising ; and thereupon a messenger was sent on purpose by collonel sidney , viz. aaron smith , to invite scotch commissioners to treat with these noble lords . pursuant to this , j●●● before the plot brake out , several from scotland came to treat with them how to 〈◊〉 work ; l. was demanded by the scots , in order that they should be read● 〈◊〉 scotland ; then they fell to , and at last ( for the scots love money ) they fell to , which they would take and run all hazards , but they not coming to their terms , that broke off that week the plot was discovered . gentlemen , if we prove all these instances , besides we shall call some to shew you that all the inferior party still looked upon these to be the heads ; and tho' they kept it secret , god hath suffered it to come to light with as plain an evidence as ever was heard . sir geo. jeff. i will not take up any of your lordships time ; we will call our witnesses to prove the fact mr. attorney hath opened . swear collonel romsey . ( which was done ) pray collonel romsey will you give my lord and the jury an accompt , from the beginning to the end of the several meetings that were , and what was the debates of those meetings . col. romsey . my lord , i was at my lord shaftbury's lodging where he lay down by wapping about the latter end of october or the beginning of novemb. and he told me there was met at one mr. sheppards house the duke of monmouth , my lord russel , my lord gray , sir thomas armstrong , & mr. ferguson , and he desired me to speak to them to know what resolution they were come to about the rising of taunton . i did go there accordingly , and call for mr. sheppard , and he carried me up where they were , and the answer that was there made me was , that mr. trenchard had failed them , and there would be no more done in the matter at that time . mr. att. gen. tell the whole passage . col. romsey . i did say my lord shaftsbury had sent me to know what resolution they had taken about the rising of taunton . they made me this answer , that mr. trenchard h●d failed them , that he had promised foot and horse , but when he came to perform it he could not . he thought the people would not meddle , unless they had some time to make provision for their families . l. ch. just. who had you this message from ? col. romsey . mr. ferguson did speak most of it . l. ch. just. who sent this message back ? col. romsey . mr. ferguson made the answer , my lord russel and the duke of monmouth were present , and i think my lord gray did say something to the same purpose . mr. att. gen. pray how often were you with them at that house ? col. romsey . i do not know , i was there more than once ; i was there either another time , or else i heard mr. ferguson make a report of another meeting to my lord shaftesbury . sir geo. jeff. was my lord russel in the room when this debate was ? col. romsey . yes , my lord. mr. att. gen. what did they say further ? col. romsey . that was all at that time , that i remember . mr. att. gen. was there nothing of my lord shaftesbury to be contented ? col. romsey . yes , that my lord shaftesbury must be contented ; and upon that he took his resolution to be gone . l. ch. just. did you hear any such resolution from him ? col. romsey . yes , my lord. mr. att. gen. did you know of their meeting there , or was it by my lord shaftesbury's direction ? col. romsey . no , but my lord told me , i should find such persons , and accordingly i found them ; and this answer was given . mr. att. gen. what time did you stay ? col. romsey . i think i was not there above a quarter of an hour . mr. att. gen. was there any discourse happened while you were there about a declaration ? col. romsey . i am not certain whether i did hear something about a declaration there , or that mr. ferguson did report it to my l. shaftesbury , that they had debated it . sir geo. jeff. to what purpose was the declaration ? l. ch. just. we must do the prisoner that right ; he sayes he can't tell whether he had it from him or mr. ferguson . mr. att. gen. did you hear no discourse to what it tended ? col. romsey . my lord , there was some discourse about seeing what posture the guards were in . one of the jury . by whom sir ? col. romsey . by all the company that was there . l.c.j. what was that discourse ? col. romsey . to see what posture they were in , that 〈◊〉 might know how to surprize them . l. ch. just. the guards ? col. romsey . yes , that were at the savoy , and the mews . l. ch. just. whose were the words ? tell the words as near as you can . col. romsey . my lord , the discourse was , that some should — l. ch. just. who made that discourse . col. romsey . my lord , i think sir tho. armstrong began it , and mr. ferguson . mr. att. gen. was it discoursed among all the company ? col. romsey . all the company did debate it . afterwards they thought it necessary to see with what care and vigilance they did guard themselves at the savoy and the mews , whether they might be surprized or not . mr. att. gen. was there any undertook to go and see there ? col. romsey . there were some persons . sir geo. jeff. name them . col. romsey . i think the duke of monmouth , my lord gray , and sir tho. armstrong . sir geo. jeff. was my lord russell , the prisoner , there , when they undertook to take the view ? col. romsey . yes , sir. mr. att. gen. to what purpose was the view ? col. romsey . to surprize them if the rising had gone on . sir. george jeff. did you observe by the debates that happened , that they did take notice there was a rising intended ? col. romsey . yes . sir geo. jeff. and that direction was given to take a view of the guards , if the rising had gone on ? col. romsey . yes . l. ch. just. pray sir declare justly the discourse . col. romsey . i went to them from my lord shaftesbury : and i did tell them , that my lord did pray they would come to some resolution ; & they told me , mr. trenchard they depended upon , for taunton , had failed them , who when he came up to town , first at the term , had assured them , that in three or four hours time , he could have one thousand foot , and three hundred horse : but now it came to be tryed , he answered it was not possible for him to undertake it , for people would not rush into it of a sudden , but have some time to prepare for their families . mr. att. gen. was it pretended there should be a rising at that time ? col. romsey , yes , the th . of november was appointed for the rising . l. ch. just. was it before that time , you went to press them from my lord shaftesbury ? col. romsey . yes , i think it was a matter of a fortnight before , or something more . for i think it was concluded sunday fortnight after my l. gray met . mr. attor . gen. but you say , besides what you heard there , you understood there was to be a rising at that time , was you to be engaged in this ? col. romsey . yes , i was ▪ l. ch. just. you must speak so , that what you deliver may be sensible ; for if you speak , i apprehend so and so , that will be doubtfull . col. romsey . no my lord , the rising was determined , and i was to have gone to bristol . mr. attor . gen. in what capacity , as colonel or captain ? col. romsey . there was no determination of that , no quality . l. c. just. by whose appointment was that ? col. romsey . my l. shaftsbury spake that to me . sir. geo. jeff. but pray col. romsey , this you are very able to know , what the debates were , and need not be pumped with so many questions ; pray was there any debate , when you came with the message from my l. shaftsburyes , was there a debate about the rising ? col. romsey . there was no debate of it , because they made answer , mr. trenchard had failed them . sir. geo. jeff. but did not they take notice of the rising ? give an account of it . col. romsey . i have done it twice . jury . we desire to know the message from the l. shaftsbury . l. ch. just. direct your self to the court : some of the gent. have not heard it , they desire you would with a little more loud voice repeat the message you were sent of , from my l. shaftsbury . col. romsey . i was sent by my lord , to know the resolution of the rising in taunton ; they answered , mr. trenchard , whom they depended upon for the men , had failed them , and that it must fall at that time , and my lord must be contented . mr. attor . gen. was the prisoner at the barr present at that debate ? col. romsey . yes . sir. geo. jeff. did you find him averse to it , or agreeing to it ? col. romsey . agreeing to it . baron street . what said my lord shaftsbury ? col. romsey . upon my return he said , he would be gone , and accordingly did go . sir. geo. jeff. if my l. russell pleases to ask him any questions , he may . l. russel . must i ask him now ? l. ch. just. yes my lord , propose your questions to me . l. russel . i have very few questions to ask him , for i know little of the matter , for it was the greatest accident in the world i was there , and when i saw that company was there , i would have been gone again . i came there accidentally to speak with mr. sheppard ; i was just come to town , but there was no discourse of surprizing the guards , nor no undertaking of raising an army . l. ch. just. we will hear you to any thing by and by , but that which we now desire of your lordship is , as the witnesses come , to know if you would have any particular questions asked of them . l. russel . i desire to know , if i gave any answer to any message about the rising : i was up and down ; i do not know what they might say when i was in the room ; i was tasting of vvine . l. ch. just. did you observe that my l. russel said any thing there , and what ? col. romsey . yes , my l. russel did speak . l. ch. just. about what ? col. romsey . about the rising of taunton . l. russel . it was sir tho. armstrong that conversed with mr. trenchard . l. ch. just. what did you observe my l. russel to say ? col. romsey . my l. russel did discourse of the rising . l. russel . how should i discourse of the rising at taunton , that knew not the place , nor had knowledg of trenchard . mr. attor . gen. now my lord , we will give you an accompt , that my l. russel appointed this place , and came in the dark without his coach. l. russel . my lord , i think the witness was asked , if i gave my consent . l. ch. just. what say you , did my lord give any consent to the rising ? col. romsey . yes my lord , he did . mr. attor . gen. pray swear mr. sheppard , ( which was done ) . pray will you speak aloud , and give an account to my lord , and the jury , of the meetings at your house , and what was done . mr. sheppard . in the month of october last , as i remember , mr. ferguson came to me in the duke of monmouth's name , and desired the conveniency of my house for him and some other persons of quality to meet there . and as soon as i had granted it , in the evening the duke of monmouth , my lord gray , my lord russel , sr. thomas armstrong , col. romsey , and mr. ferguson came . sr. thomas armstrong desired me , that none of my servants might come up , but they might be private ; so what they wanted i went down for , a bottle of wine or so . the substance of their discourse was , how to surprize the kings guards . and in order to that , the duke of monmouth , my lord gray , and sr. tho. armstrong , as i remember , went one night to the mews , or thereabout , to see the kings guards . and the next time they came to my house , i heard sir tho. armstrong say , the guards were very remiss in their places , and not like souldiers , and the thing was feasible , if they had strength to do it . mr. att. gen. how many meetings had you there ? mr. sheppard . i remember but twice sir. mr. att. gen. did they meet by chance , or had you notice they would be there that night ? mr. sheppard . yes , i did hear it before . mr. sol. gen. who had you notice would be there ? mr. sheppard . the duke of monmouth , my lord gray , my lord russel , sir tho. armstrong , col. romsey , and mr. ferguson . mr. att. gen. did they come with their coaches , or a foot , in the night time and in the dark ? mr. sheppard . i cannot tell ; it was in the evening , i did not let them in . mr. att. gen. was there any coaches at the door ? mr. sheppard . none that i heard , or saw , they came not altogether , but immediately one after another . sir geo. jeff. had they any debate before they went into the room ? mr. sheppard . no , they went readily into the room . sir geo. jeff. was my lord russel both times there ? mr. sheppard . yes , sir , as i remember . sir geo. jeff. had you any particular business with my lord russel , or he with you ? mr. sheppard . no , not at that time , but since i have had about the affairs of my lord shaftsbury . sir. geo. jeff. do you remember , col. romsey at the first time had any discourse about any private business relating to my lord russel ? col. romsey . no i do not remember it . mr. att. gen. besides the seizing of the guards , did they discourse about riseing ? mr. sheppard . i do not remember any further discourse , for i went several times down to fetch wine , and sugar , and nutmeg , and i do not know what was said in my absence . sir geo. jeff. do you remember any writings or papers read at that time ? mr. sheppard . none that i saw . sir geo. jeff. or that you heard of ? mr. sheppard . yes , now i recollect my self , i do remember one paper was read : sir geo. jeff. to what purpose was it ? mr. sheppard . it was somewhat in the nature of a declaration ; it was read by mr. ferguson , who was present at the reading , i cannot say whether they were all present or not . the purport of it was setting forth the greivances of the nation , but truly what particulars i can't tell : it was a pritty large paper . mr. att. gen. but you can tell the effect of it , when was that to be set out ? mr. sheppard . it was not discoursed , it was shewn only i suppose for approbation . mr. att. gen. who was it shew'd to ? mr. sheppard . sir tho. armstrong . sir geo. jeff. who else ? mr. sheppard . as i remember the duke was present , and i think col. romsey . col. romsey . no , i was not , it was done before i came . sir. geo. jeff. what was the designe of that paper ? recollect your self , what was the design ? mr. sheppard . the design of that paper , was in the nature of a declaration , setting forth the greivances of the nation , in order to a riseing , i suppose by the purport of the paper ; but cannot remember the particular words of it . foreman of the jury . can you say my , lord russ●l was there , when that declaration was read , as you call it . mr. sheppard . i can't say that . mr. att. gen. but he was there when they talked of seizing the guards ? mr. sheppard . yes , my lord was there then . l. russel . pray mr. sheppard , do you remember the time where these meetings were ? mr. sheppard . i can't be positive as to the time , i remember it was at the time my l. shaftsbury was absent from his own house , and he absented himself from his own house about michaelmas day ; but i can't be positive as to the time. l. russel . i never was but once at your house , and there was no such design as i heard of . i desire that mr. sheppard may recollect himself . mr. sheppard . indeed my lord i can't be positive in the times . my lord i am sure was as one meeting . l. ch. just. but was he at both ? mr. sheppard . i think so , but it was or months ago , and i can't be positive . l. russel . i can prove i was then in the country . col. romsey said there was but one meeting . col. romsey . i do not remember i was at two ; if i was not , i heard mr. ferguson relate the debates of the other meeting to my lord shaftsbury . l. russel . is it usual for the witnesses to hear one another ? l. ch. just. i think your lordship need not concern your self about that , for i see the witnesses are brought in one after another . l. russel . there was no design . sir geo. jeff. he hath sworn it . mr. att. gen. swear my lord howard ( which was done . ) pray will your lordship give an account to the court , what you know of a rising designed before my lord shaftsbury went away , and afterwards how it was continued on . l. howard . my lord , i appear with some confusion . let no man wonder that it is troublesome to me . my lord , as to the question mr. attorney puts to me , this is the accompt i have to give . 't is very well known to every one , how great a ferment was made in the city , upon occasion of the long dispute about the election of sheriffs : and this soon produced a greater freedom and liberty of speech one with another , than perhaps had been used formerly , tho'not without some previous preparations and dispositions made to the same thing . upon this occasion among others , i was acquainted with captain walcot , a person that had been some months in england , being returned out of ireland , and who indeed i had not seen for years before . but he came to me assoon as he came out of ireland , and when these unhappy divisions came , he made very frequent applications to me ; and tho' he was unknown himself , yet being brought by me he soon gained a confidence with my lord shaftsbury , and from him derived it to others , when this unhappy rent and division of mind was , he having before got himself acquainted with many persons of the city , had entred into such counsels with them , as afterwards had the effect , which in the ensuing narrative i shall relate to your lordship . he came to me , and told me that they were now sensible all they had was going , that this force put upon them — l. ch. just. pray my lord raise your voice , else your evidence will pass for nothing . one of the jury . we cannot hear my lord. l. howard . there is an unhappy accident happened that hath sunk my voice , i was but just now acquainted with the fate of my lord of essex — my lord i say , he came to me , and did acquaint me that the people were now so sensible , that all their interest was going by that violence offered to the city in their elections , that they were resolved to take some course to put a stop to it , if it were possible : he told me there were several consults and meetings of persons about it , and several persons had begun to put themselves into a disposition , and preparation to act ; that some had furnished themselves with very good horses , and kept them in the most secret and blind stables they could ; that divers had intended it , and for his own part he was resolved to imbark himself in it . and having an estate in ireland , he thought to dispatch his son thither ; ( for he had a good real estate , and a great stock , how he disposed of his real estate i know not ) ; but he ordered his son to turn his stock into mony to furnish him for the occasion : this i take to be about august . his son was sent away . soon after this , the son not being yet returned , and i having several accompts from him , wherein i found the fermentation grew higher and higher , and every day a nearer approach to action . i told him i had a necessity to go into essex to attend the concernes of my own estate , but told him , how he might by another name convey letters to me , and gave him a little cant , by which he might blind and disguise the matter he wrote about , when i was in the country . i receiv'd two or three letters from him , that gave me an account in that disguised stile , but such as i understood , that the negotiation which he had with my correspondents was going on , and in good condition ; and it was earnestly desired , i would come to town ; this was the middle of september . i notwithstanding was willing to see the result of that great affair , upon which all mens eyes were fixed , which was the determination of the sherivalty about that time . so i ordered it to fall into town , and went to my own house on saturday night , which was michaelmas day . on sunday he came to me , and dined with me , and told me ( after a general account given me of the affairs of the times ) that my lord shaftesbury was , secretted and withdrawn from his own house in aldersgate-street ; and that though he had a family setled , and had absconded himself from them , and divers others of his friends and confidents ; yet he did desire to speak with me , and for that purpose sent him to shew me the way to his lodging : he brought me to a house at the lower end of wood-street , one watson's house , and there my lord was alone . he told me he could not but be sensible , how innocent soever he was , both he and all honest men were unsafe , so long as the administration of justice was in such hands , as would accomodate all things to the humor of the court. that in the sense of this he thought it but reasonable to provide for his own safety , by withdrawing himself from his own house into that retirement . that now he had ripen'd affairs to that head , and had things in that preparation , that he did not doubt but he should be able , by those men that would be in readiness in london , to turn the tide , and put a stop to the torrent that was ready to overflow . but he did complain to me , that his design , and the design of the publick was very much obstructed , by the unhandsome deportment of the duke of monmouth , and my lord russel , who had withdrawn themselves , not only from his assistance , but from their own ingagements and appointments . for when he had got such a formed force as he had in london , and expected to have it answered by them in the country , they did recede from it , and told him they were not in a condition , or preparation in the country , to be concurrent with him at that time . this he looked upon but as an artificial excuse , and as an instance of their intentions , wholly to desert him ; but notwithstanding there was such preparation made in london , that if they were willing to lose the honour of being concurrent with him , he was able to do it himself , and did intend speedily to put it into execution . i asked him , what forces he had , he said he had enough ; sayes i , what are you assured of ? sayes he , there is above ten thousand brisk boys are ready to follow me , when ever i hold up my finger : sayes i , how have you methoded this , that they shall not be crushed , for there will be a great force to oppose you ? yes , he answered , but they would possess themselves of the gates ; and these ten thousand men in twenty four hours , would be multiplied into five times the number , and be able to make a sally out , and possess themselves of white-hall , by beating the guards . i told him , this was a fair story , and i had reason to think , a man of his figure would not undertake a thing that might prove so fatal , unless it were laid on a foundation that might give a prudent man ground to hope it would be successful . he said he was certain of it , but confessed it was a great disappointment , that these lords had failed him : i told him , i was not provided with an answer at that time , that he well knew me , and knew the general frame , and bent of my spirit . but i told him , i looked upon it as dangerous , and ought to be laid deep , and to be very well weighed and considered of ; and did not think it a thing fit to be entred upon , without the concurrence of those lords : and therefore desired , before i discovered my own inclination , to discourse with those lords . he did consents with much ado ; but sayes he , you will find they will wave it , and give doubtful and deferring answers , but you will find this a truth . i went to moor-parke the next day , where the duke of monmouth was , and told him the great complaint my lord shaftesbury had made , that he failed him : sayes he , i think he is mad , i was so far from giving him any incouragement , that i did tell him from the beginning , and so did my lord russel , there was nothing to be done by us in the country at that time . i did not then own i had seen my lord , but spake as if this were brought me by a third person , because he had not given me liberty to tell them where his lodging was . sayes i , my lord , i shall be able to give a better account of this in a day or two ; shall i convey it to my lord , that you are willing to give a meeting ? yes , sayes he , with all my heart : this was the second , third , or fourth of octobre ; i came to town on saturday , and was carried to him on monday ; and i suppose this was tuesday the second of october ; on wednesday i think i went to him again ( but 't is not very material ) and told him i had been with the duke of monmouth , and given him a punctual account of what i had from him ; and the duke did absolutely disown any such thing ; and told me , he never did give him any incouragement to proceed that way , because the countries were not in a disposition for action , nor could be put in readiness at that time ; sayes my lord shaftesbury , 't is false , they are afraid to own it . and sayes he , i have reason to believe , there is some artificial bargain between his father and him , to save one another : for when i have brought him to action , i could never get him to put on , and therefore i suspect him : and sayes he , several honest men in the city have puzled me , in asking how the duke of monmouth lived : sayes he , they puzled me , and i could not answer the question ; for i know he must have his living from the king ; and sayes he , we have different prospects ; we are for a common-wealth , and he hath no other design but his own personal interest , and that will not go down with my people now ( so he called them ) they are all for a common-wealth : and then sayes he , 't is to no purpose for me to see him ; it will but widen the breach , and i dare not trust him to come hither . sayes i , my lord , that 's a good one indeed , dare not you trust him , and yet do you send me to him on this errand ? nay , sayes he , 't is because we have had some mis-understanding of late ; but i believe he is true enough to the interest . sayes i , 't is a great unhappiness to take this time to fall out ; and i think 't is so great a design , that it ought to be undertaken with the greatest strength and coalition in the kingdom . sayes he , my friends are now gone so far , that they can't pull their foot back again without going further ; for sayes he , it hath been communicated to so many , that 't is impossible to keep it from taking air , and it must go on . sayes he , we are not so unprovided as you think for ; there are so many men , that you will find as brisk men as any in england . besides , we are to have or . horse , that are to be drawn by insensible parties into town , that when the insurrection is , shall be able to scour the streets , and hinder them from forming their forces against us . my lord , after great inlargement upon this head , and heads of the like nature , i told him i would not leave him thus , and that nothing should satisfy me , but an interview between him and the lords : no , i could not obtain it : but if i would go and tell them what a forwardness he was in , and that , if they would do themselves right , by putting themselves upon correspondent action in their respective places , and where their interest lay , well , otherwise he would go away without them . so i went again to the duke of monmouth , i spake to him only ( i never spake to my lord russel then , only we were together , but i had never come to any close conjunction of counsels in my life with him at that time . ) sayes i to the duke , this man is mad , and his madness will prove fatal to us all ; he hath been in a fright by being in the tower , and carryes those fears about him , that cloud his understanding : i think his judgment hath deserted him , when he goes about with those strange sanguine hopes , that i can't see what should support him in the ground of them . therefore sayes i , pray will you give him a meeting . god-soe , sayes the duke , with all my heart , and i desire nothing more . now , i told him , i had been with my lord shaftesbury , with other inlargements , that i need not trouble your lordship with : well , sayes he , pray go to him , and try if it be possible to get a meeting : so i went to him , and told him . sayes i , this is a great unhappiness , and it seems to be a great absurdity , that you are so forward to act alone in such a thing as this . pray , sayes i , without any more to do , since you have this confidence to send for me , let me prevail with you to meet them , and give them an interview , or else you and i must break . i will no longer hold any correspondence , unless it be so . sayes he , i tell you they will betray me . in short , he did with much importunity yield , that he would come out the next nightin a disguise . by this time it was saturday , i take it to be the sixth of october ; an almanack will settle that : so the next night being sunday , and the shops shut , he would come out in a concealment , be carried in a coach , and brought to his own house , which he thought then was safest . i came and gave the duke of monmouth an account of it ; the duke , i suppose , conveyed the same understanding to my lord russel ; and i suppose both would have been there accordingly , to have given the meeting ; but next morning i found collonel romsey had left a note at my house , that the meeting could not be that day . then i went to the duke of monmouth , and he had had the account before , that my lord shaftesbury did apprehend himself to be in some danger in that house , and that the apprehension had occasioned him to remove ; but we should be sure to hear from him in two or three dayes . we took it as a waver , and thought he did from thence intend to abscond hinself from us , and it proved so to me , for from that time i never saw him . but capt. walcot came to me and told me , that he was withdrawn , but it was for fear his lodgeing might be discovered , but he did not doubt , but in a week he would let me know , where his lodging was . but told me within such a time , which i think was or days , there would be a rising : and i told the d. of monmouth , and i believe he told my l. russel ; and we believed his frenzy was now grown to that heigth , that he would rise immediately , and put his design in execution ; so we endeavoured to prevent it . upon which my lord russel ( i was told ) and the duke of monmouth , did force their way to my lord shaftsburyes , and did perswade him to put off the day of his rendezvous . i had not this from my l. russel , for i had not spoke a word to him ; but the duke told me , my l. russel had been with him ( i had indeed an intimation that he had been with him ) ; but the duke told me , says he , i have not been with him , but my l. russel was , having been convey'd by col. romsey . after this day was put off , it seems it was put off with this condition , that those lords , and divers others , should be in a readiness to raise the country about that day fortnight , or thereabouts ; for there was not above a fortnight's time given : and says the duke of monmouth , we have put it off , but now we must be in action , for there 's no holding it off any longer . and says he , i have been at wapping all night , and i never saw a company of bolder , and brisker fellows in my life ; and sayes he , i have been found the tower , and seen the avenues of it ; and i do not think it will be hard in a little time , to possess our selves of it ; but says he , they are in the wrong way ; yet we are ingaged to be ready for them in a fortnight , and therefore , says he , now we must apply our selves to it , as well as we can . and thereupon i believe they did send into the country ; and the duke of monmouth told me , he spake to mr. trenchard , who was to take particular care of sommerset-shire , with this circumstance , says he , i thought mr. trenchard had been a brisker fellow ; for when i told him of it , he looked so pale , i thought he would have swooned , when i brought him to the brink of action ; and said , i pray go and do what you can among your acquaintance : and truly i thought it would have come then to action . but i went the next day to him , & he said it was impossible ; they could not get the gent. of the country to stir yet . l. russel . my lord , i think i have very hard measure , here is a great deal of evidence by hear-say . l. ch. just. this is nothing against you , i declare it to the jury . mr. att. gen. if it please you my lord , go on in the method of time. this is nothing against you , but it 's coming to you , if your lordship will have patience , i assure you . l. howard . this is just in the order it was done . when this was put off , then they were in a great hurry ; & capt walcot had been several times with me , & discoursed of it . but upon this disappointment they said , it should be the dishonor of the lords , that they were backward to perform their parts ; but still they were resolv'd to go on . and this had carried it to the latter end of october . about the th or th cap. walcot came to me , and told me , now they were resolv'd positively to rise , and did believe that a smart party might perhaps meet with some great men . thereupon i told the duke of it ; i met him in the street , & went out , of my own coach into his , & told him , that there was some dark intimation , as if there might be some attempt upon the kings person ; with that he strook his breast with a great emotion of spirit , & said , godsoe , kill the king ! i will never suffer that . then we went to the play-house to find sir tho. armstrong , & send him up and down the city to put it off , as they did formerly ; & it was done with that success , that we were all quieted in our minds , that at that time nothing would be done . but upon the day the king came from new-market , we din'd together ; the duke of monmouth was one , and there we had a notion conveyed among us , that some bold action should be done that day ; which comparing it with the kings coming , we concluded it was design'd upon the king. and i remember my l. gray , says he , by god , if they do attempt any such thing , it can't fail . we were in great anxiety of mind , till we heard the kings coach was come in , and sir tho. armstrong not being there , we apprehended that he was to be one of the party ( for he was not there ) . this failling , it was then next determined ( which was the last alarum and news i had of it ) to be done upon the th of november , the anniversary of queen elizabeth ; and i remember it by this remark i made my self , that i fear'd it had been discovered , because i saw a proclamation a little before , forbidding publick bonfires without leave of my lord mayor . it made some impressions upon me ; that i thought they had got an intimation of our intention , and had therefore forbid that meeting . this therefore of the th . of november , being also disappointed , and my l. shaftsbury , being told things were not ripe in the country , took shipping and got away ; and from that time , i heard no more of him , till i heard he was dead . now sir , after this , we all began to lye under the same sense and apprehensions that my l. shaftsbury did , that we had gone so far , and communicated it to so many , that it was unsafe to make a retreat ; and this being considered , it was also considered , that so great an affair as that was , consisting of such infinite particulars , to be managed with so much sineness , and to have so many parts , it would be necessary , that there should be some general council , that should take upon them the care of the whole . upon these thoughts , we resolved to erect a little caball among our selves , which did consist of six persons ; and the persons were , the duke of monmouth , my lord of essex , my lord russel , mr. hambden jun. algernone sidney , and my self . mr. attor . gen. about what time was this , when you setled this council ? l. howard . it would have been proper for me in the next place to tell you that , and i was coming to it . this was about the middle of january last , ( as near as i can remember ) ; for about that time , we did meet at mr. hambdens house . mr. attor . gen. name those that met . l. howard . all the persons i named before : that was , the d. of monmouth , my l. essex , my l. russel , col. sidney , mr. hambden jun. and my self . when we met there , it was presently agreed , what their proper province was , which was to have a care of the whole : and therefore it was necessary some general things should fall under our care and conduct , which could not possibly be conducted by individual persons . the things that did principally challenge this care , we thought were these ; whether the insurrection was most proper to be begun in london , or in the country , or both at one instant . this stood upon several different reasons : it was said in the country ; and i remember the d. of monmouth insisted upon it , that it was impossible to oppose a formed , well methodiz'd , and governed force , with a rabble hastily got together ; and therefore whatever numbers could be gathered in the city , would be suppressed quickly before they could form themselves : therefore it would be better to begin it at such a distance from the town , where they might have an opportunity of forming themselves , & would not be subject to the like panick fear , as in the town , where half an hour would convey the news to those forces , that in another half hour would be ready to suppress them . mr. attor . gen. was this determined among you all ? l. howard . in this manner that i tell you , why it was necessary to be done at some reasonable distance from the town . and from thence it was likewise considered , that the being so remote from the town , it would put the king upon this dilemma , that either the king would send his forces to subdue them , or not ; if he did , he must leave the city naked , vvho being proximi dispositioni to action , it would give them occasion to rise , and come upon the back of the kings forces ; if he did not send , it vvould give them time to form their number , and be better ordered . mr. attor . gen. my lord , we do not desire all your discourse and debates ; what was your other general thing ? l. howard . the other was , what countries and towns were the fittest and most disposed to action : and the third , what arms were necessary to be got , and how to be disposed : and a fourth , ( which should have been indeed first in consideration ) propounded by the d. of monmouth , that it vvould be absolutely necessary to have some common bank of . or l. to answer the occasions of such an undertaking . nothing was done , but these things were offered then to our consideration , and we were to bring in our united advice concerning them . but the last and greatest was , how we might so order it , as to draw scotland into a consent with us , for we thought it necessary that all the diversion should be given . this was the last . mr. attor . gen. had you any other meetings ? l. howard . we had about ten days after this at my lord russels . mr. attor . gen. the same persons ? l. how. every one of the same persons then meeting . mr. attor . gen. what debates had you there ? l. how. then it was so far , as we came to a resolution , that som persons should be sent to my l. argyle , to settle an understanding with him , & that some messengers should be dispatcht'd into scotland , that should invite some persons hither , that were judged most able to understand the estate of scotland , & give an account of it : the persons agreed on were , sir iohn cockram , my lord melvil , and another , whose name i have since been told upon my description sir hugh cambel . for this purpose we did order a person should be thought on that was fit — mr at. gen. do you know who was sent , and what was done upon this resolution ? l. howard . i have heard ( i never saw him in six months before ) that aaron smith was sent . mr. at. gen. who was intrusted to take care of that business ? l. howard . colonel sidney , we in discourse , did agree to refer it to colonel sidney , to have the care of sending a person . mr. at. gen. who acquainted you aaron smith was sent ? l. howard colonel sidney told me he had sent him , and given him sixty guineys for his journey . mr. at. gen. what more meetings had you ? l. howard we did then consider that these meetings might have occasioned some observation upon us , and agreed not to meet again till the return of that messenger . he was gone i believe , near a month before we heard any thing of him , which we wondered at , and feared some miscarriage , but if his letter had miscarried , it could have done no great hurt , for it carried only a kind of cant in it ; it was under the disguise of a plantation in carolina . mr. at. gen. you are sure my lord russell was there ? l. howard . yes sir , i wish i could say he was not . mr. at. gen. did he sit there as a cipher , what did my lord say ? l. howard . every one knows my lord russel is a person of great judgment , and not very lavish in discourse . sir g. jeff. but did he consent ? l. howard . we did not put it to the vote , but it went without contradiction , and i took it that all there gave their consent . mr. s●l . gen. the raising of money you speak of , was that put into any way ? l. howard . no , but every man was to put themselves upon thinking of such a way , that money might be collected without administring jealousy . mr. at. gen. were there no persons to undertake for a fund ? l. howard . no , i think not . however it was but opinion , the thing that was said , was jocosely , rather than any thing else , that my lord of essex had dealing in money , and therefore he was thought the most proper person to take the care of those things ; but this was said rather by way of mirth , then otherwise . mr. at. gen. what do you know else my lord ? l. howard . i was going to tell you , i am now at a full stop . for it was six weeks or more , before smith's return , and then drew on the time , that it was necessary for me to go into essex , where i had a small concern ; there i stayed about three weeks , when i came back , i was informed that he was returned , and sir iohn cockram was also come to town . l. c. just. did you meet after this ? l howard no my lord , i tell you , that i was forced to go three weeks upon the account of my estate , and afterwards i' was necessitated to go to the bath , where i spent five weeks , and the time of coming from the bath to this time , is five weeks more ; so that all this time hath been a perfect parenthesis to me , and more then this , i know not . l. c just. my lord russell , now , if your lordship pleases , is the time for you to ask him any questions . l. russell . the most he hath said of me , my lord , is onely hearsay , the two times we met , it was upon no formed design , only to talk of news , and talk of things in general . l. c. just. but i will tell you what it is he testifies , that comes nearest your lordship , that so you may consider of it , if you will ask any questions . he says after my lord shaftsbury went off ( all before is but inducement as to any thing that concerns your lordship , and does not particularly touch you ) after his going away , he says the party concerned with my lord shaftsbury did think fit to make choice of six persons to carry on the design of an insurrection or rising , as he calls it , in the kingdome . and that to that purpose choice was made of the duke of monmoth , my lord of essex , your lordship , my lord howard , colonel sidney , and mr. hambden . l. russel . pray my lord , not to interrupt you , by what party ( i know no party ) were they chosen ? l. h●ward . 't is very true , we were not chosen by community , but did erect our selves by mutual agreement , one with another into this society . l. russel . we were people that did meet very often . l. c. just. will your lordship please to have any other questions asked of my lord howard ? l. russell . he says it was a formed design , when we met about no such thing . l. c. just. he says , that you did consult among your selves , about the raising of men , and where the rising should first be , whether in the city of lond●n , or in more foreign parts , that you had several debates concerning it ; he does make mention of some of the duke of monmouth's arguments for its being formed in places from the city ; he says , you did all agree not to do any thing further in it , till you had considered how to raise money and arms ; and to ingage the kingdom of scotland in this business with you ; that it was agreed among you , that a ●ehenger should be sent into the kingdom of scotland . thus far he goes upon his own knowledg , as he saith , what he says after , of sending a me●enger , is by report only . mr. at. gen. i beg your pardon my lord. l. c. just. 't is so , that what he heard concerning the sending of aaron smith . mr. at. gen. will you ask him any questions ? l. russell . we met , but there was no debate of any such thing , nor putting any thing in method . but my lord h●ward is a man hath a voluble tongue , talks very well , and is full of ●iscourse , and we were delighted to hear him . mr. at. gen. i think your lordship did mention the camb●lls ? l. howard . i did ●tammer it out , but not without a ●arenthesis , it was a person of the alliance , and i thought of the name of the argyles . l. russell . i desire your lordship to take notice , that none of these men i ever saw , my lord melvile i have seen , but not upon this account . mr atterbury sworn . mr. at. gen. aaron smith did go , and ca●bell he went for is here taken . this is the me●enger . pray what do you know of the apprehending of the cambells ? mr. atterbury if it please your lo●dship , i did not apprehend sir hugh cambell my self , but he is now in my cu●tody ; he was making his escape out of a ●oodmongers-house , both he and his son. mr. at. gen how long did he own he had been at london ? mr. atterbury . four days , and that in that time he had been at three lodgings ; and that he and his son , and one baily , came to ●own together . mr. at. gen. ●● l●rd , we shall besides this , ( now we have fixed this upon my lord ) give you ●n●ccount , that these persons that w●re to rise , always took them as their pay-masters , and expected their assistance . mr. ●est , mr keeling and mr. lesgh . ●r west sworn mr. at. gen. that which i call you to , is to know whether or no , in your managery of this plot , you und●r●tood any of the lords were conc●rned , and which ? mr. west . my lord , as to my lord russell , i never had any conversation with him at all , but that i have heard in this , ●hat in the in●●rre●tion , in november , mr. ferguson , and colonel rumsey , did reli●me that my lord rus●ell intended to go down and take his post in the west , when mr trenchard had failed them . l. c. just. what is this ? mr. at. gen we have proved my lord privy to the consults , now we go about to prove , the under-acters did know it mr. west . they always said my lord russell was the man they most depended upon , because he was a person looked upon as of great sobriety l. russell . can i hinder people from making use of my name ? to have this brought to in●●uence the gentlemen of the jury ▪ and in●ame them against me , is hard . l. c. just. as to this , the giving evidence by hear-say , will not be evidence , what colonel rumsey or mr. fergu●●n , told mr. west , is no evidence . mr. at gen. 't is not evidence to convict a man , if there were not plain evidence before , but in plainly confirms what the other swears . but i think we need no more . sir g. jeff. we have evidenc● without it , and will not use any thing of garniture ; we will leave it as 't is , we wo●'t trouble your lordship any further . i think mr. attorney . we have done with our evidence . l. c. just. my lord russell , the kings counsel do think to rest upon this evidence that they have given against your lordship . i would put your lordship in mind of those things that are material in this ●●se , and proved again●t your lordship , here is colonel rum●ey does prove against your lordship this , that he was sent upon an errand , which in truth , was traiterous , it was a traiterous errand sent from my lord shaft●bury by him to that meeting . he does swear your lordship was at that meeting , and he delivered his errand to them , which was to know what account could be given concerning the design of the insurrection at taunton , and he says , your lordship being there , this return was made , that mr. trenchard had failed them in his undertaking in the business , and therefore my lord shaftsbury must be contented , and sit down satisfied as to that time . mr sheppard does likewise speak of the same time , that your lordship was there with the rest of the persons , the duke and others , that there was a discourse concerning an insurrection to have been made , ( though he is not so particular , as to the very notion of it , as colonel rumsey is ) as to the time they do agree . l. russell . col. rumsey is not positive that i say'd , or heard anything l. c. just. my lord , if you will have a little patience to hear me , i will tell you what it is presses you , there is this which i have mentioned , and mr. sheppard does say , there was a paper purporting a declaration then read among the company there , which was to be printed upon the rising , setting forth the oppressions and greivances of the nation and then my lord howard ( after a great dicourse concerning the many designs of my lord shaftsbury ) comes particularly to your lordship and says , that six of you , as a chosen counsel among your selves , ( not that you were actually chosen ) but as a chosen counsel among your selves , did undertake to mannage the great matter of the insurrection , and raising of men in order to surprize the kings guards , and for to rise , ( which is a rebellion in the nation . ) he says that you had sever●l consults concerning it . i told you the several particulars of those consults he mentioned ; now it is fit for your lordship , and 't is your time to give some answer to these things . l. russell . my lord , i cannot but think my self mighty unfortunate to stand here charged with so high and hainous a crime , and that intricated and intermixed with the treasons and horrid practices and speeches of other people , the kings counsel taking all advantages , and improving and heightning things against me . i am no lawyer , a very unready speaker , and altogether a stranger to things of this nature and alo●e and without councel ▪ truly my lord , i am very sensible , i am not so provided to make my just defence as otherwise i should do . but my lord , you are equal , and the gentlemen of the jury , i think , are men of consciences , they are strangers to me , and i hope they value innocent blood , and will consider the witnesses they may be accounted , they can't be credible . and for col rumsey , who it's notoriously known hath been so highly obliged by the king and the duke , for him to be capable of such a design of murdering the king ! i think no body will wonder , if to save his own life , he will endeavour to take away mine ; neither does he swear enough to do it . and then if he did , the time by the th . of this king is elapsed , it must be , as i understand by the law , prosecuted withisix months , and by the e. . a design of levying war is no treason unless by some overt a●●it appear . and my lord , i desire to know what statute i am to be tryed upon , for generals , i think , are not to be gone upon in these cases . l. c. just. ( to the attorney general● ) mr. attorney , you hear what it is my lord objects to this evidence , he says that as to those witnesses that testify any thing concerning him , above six months before he was prosecuted , he conceives the act of parliament , upon which ●e takes himself to be indicted , does not extend to it , for that says that within six months there ought to have been a prosecution , and my lord tells you , that he is advised , that a design of levying war , without actual levying of war , was not treason before that statute . mr. at. gen. to satisfy my lord , he is not indicted upon that statute , we go upon the e. . but then for the next objection : surely my lord is informed wrong ▪ to raise a rebellion or a conspiracy within the kingdom , is it not that which is called levying of war in that statute , but to raise a number of men to brake prisons , &c. which is not so directly tending against the life of the king. to prepare forces to fight against the king , that is a design within that statute to kill the king ; and to design to depose the king , to imprison the king , to raise the subjects against the king , these have been setled by several resolutions to be within that statute , and evidences of a design of killing the king. l. russell . my lord , this is matter of law ; neither was there but one meeting at mr. sheppards house . mr. at. gen my lord , if you admit the fact , and will rest upon the point of law , i am ready to argue it with any of your counsel . i will acquaint your lordship how the evidence stands . there is one evidence since christmas last . l. russell . that 's not to the business of sheppards house . my lord , one witness will not convict a man of treason . mr. at. gen. if there be one witness of one act of treason , and another of a d , another of a d , that manifest the same treason to depose or destroy the king , that will be sufficient . l. c. just. my lord , that has been resolved , the two witnesses , the statute requires , are not to the same individual act , but to the same treason if they be several acts declaring the same treason , and one witness to each of them , they have been reckoned two witnesses within the statute of edw. . sir geor. jef. if my lord will call his witnesse — l. russel . this is tacking of two treasons together , here is one in november by one witness and then you bring on another with a discourse of my lord howard , and he says the discourse passed for pleasure . l. c. just. if your lordship do doubt whether the fact proved against your lordship be treason or not within the statute of e. . and you are contented that the fact be taken as proved against your lordship , and so desire counsel barely upon that , that is matter of law. you shall have it granted . l. russel . i am not knowing in the law , i think 't is not proved , and if it was , i think t is not punishable by that act. i desire counsel may be admitted upon so nice a point . my life lies at stake ; here 's but one witness that speaks of a message . sir geor. jef. the fact must be left to the jury , therefore if my lord russel hath any witnesses to call , in opposition to these matters , let him . l. c. just. my lord , there can be no matter of law but upon a fact admitted and stated . l. russell . my lord , i do not think it proved , i hope you will be of counsel for me , t is very hard for me that my counsel may not speak for me in a point of law. l. c. just. my lord , to hear your counsel , concerning this fact , that we cannot do , it was never done , nor will be done . if your lordship doubts whether this fact is treason or not , and desire your counsel may be heard to that , i will do it . l. russell . i doubt in law , and do not see the fact is proved upon me . mr. sol. gen. will your lordship please to call any witnesses to the matter of fact ? l. russell . t is very hard a man must lose his life upon hearsay . col. rumsy says he brought a message , which i will swear i never heard nor know of . he does not say he spake to me , or i gave him any answer . mr. sheppard remembers no such thing , he was gone to , and again , here is but one witness and seven months agoe . mr. at gen. my lord , if there be any thing that is law , you shall have it . l. russell , my lord , colonel rumsey , the other day before the king , could not say that i heard it , i was in the room , but i came in late , they had been there a good while , i did not ●tay above a quarter of an hour tasting sherry with mr. sheppard . l. c. just. read the statute of e. . c. . my brothers desire to have it read . cl. of cro. whereas divers opinions have been before this time , in what case treason shall be said , and in what not : the king at the request of the lords and of the commons , hath made a declaration in the manner as hereafter followeth . that is to say , when a man doth compass or imagine the death of our lord the king , or of our lady his queen , or of their eldest son and heir , or if a man do uiolate the kings compagnion , or the kings eldest daughter unmarried , or the wife of the kings eldest son and heir ; or if a man do levy war against our lord the king , in his realm , or be adherent to the kings enemies in his realm , giving to them aid and comfort in the realm or elsewhere , and thereof be proveably attainted of open deed by people of their condition . and if a man counterfeit the kings great or privy seal , or his money : and if a man bring false money into this realm , counterfeit to the money of england , as the money called lushburgh , or other like to the said money of england , knowing the money to be false , to marchandise or make payment in desceit of our said lord the king , and of his people : and if a man slea the chancellor , treasurer , or the kings iustices of the one bench or the other , iustices in eyre , or iustices of ●●ise , and all other iustices designed to hear and determin , being in their places during their offices . and it is to be understood that in the cases above rehearsed , that ought to be iudged treason , which extends to our lord the king , and his royal majesty . l. c. just. my lord , that which is urged against you by the kings counsel , is this . you are accused by the indictment of compassing and designing the kings death , and of endeavouring to raise an insurrection in order to it ; that , that they do say , is , that these counsels that your lordship hath taken , are evidences of your compassing the kings death ; and are overt acts , declaring the same ; and upon that it is they insist your lordship to be guilty within that statute . l. russell . it is in a poynt of law , and i desire counsel . mr. at. gen. admit your consultations , and we will hear them . l. c. just. i would set your lordship right , for probably you may not apprehend the law in this case ; if your counsel be heard , they must be heard to this , that taking it , that my lord russell has consulted in this manner , for the raising of forces within this kingdom , and making an insurrection within this kingdom , as colonel rumsey and my lord howard have deposed , whether then this be treason ; we can hear your counsel to nothing else . l. russell . i do not know how to answer to it . the point methinks must be quite otherwise , that there should be two witnesses to one thing at the same time . mr. at. gen. your lordship remembers , in my lord staffords case ; there was but one witness to one act in england , and another to another in france . l. russell . it was to the same point . mr. at. gen. to the general point , the lopping point . sir g. jeff. there was not so much evidence against him , as there is against your lordship . l. c. just. my lord , if your lordship will say any thing , or call any witnesses to disprove what either of these gentlemen have said , we will hear your lordship what they say . but if you can't contradict them by testimony , it will be taken to be a proof . and the way you have to disprove them , is to call witnesses , or by asking questions ; whereby it may appear to be untrue . mr. sol. gen. if you have any witnesses , call them , my lord. l. russell . i do not think they have proved it . but then it appears by the statute , that levying war is treason , but a conspiracy to levy war is no treason ; if nothing be done , 't is not levying war within the statute . there must be manifest proof of the matter of fact , not by inference . mr. at. gen. i see that is taken out of my lord coke . levying war is a distinct branch of the statute , and my lord coke explains himself afterwards , and says , 't is an assuming of royal power , to raise for particular purposes . just. wythin . unless matter of fact be agreed , we can never come to argue the law. l. russell . i came in late . mr. sol. gen. pray my lord , has your lordship any witnesses to call , as to this matter of fact ? l. russell . i can prove i was out of town when one of the meetings was , but mr. sheppard can't recollect the day , for i was out of town all that time . i never was but once at mr. sheppards , and there was nothing undertaken of viewing the guards while i was there ; colonel rumsey , can you swear positively , that i heard the message , and gave any answer to it ? l. c. just. ( to colonel rumsey , ) sir , did my lord russell hear you , when you deliver'd the message to the company ? were they at the table , or where were they ? col. rumsey . when i came in they were standing at the fire-side , but they all came from the fire-side to hear what i said . l. russell . colonel rumsey was there when i came in . col. rumsey . no , my lord. the duke of monmouth and my lord russell went away together , and my lord gray and sir thomas armstrong . l. russell . the duke of monmouth and i came together , and you were standing at the chimney when i came in ; you were there before me . my lord howard hath made a long narrative here of what he knew , i do not know when he made it , or when he did recollect any thing ; 't is but very lately , that he did declare and protest to several people , that he knew nothing against me , nor of any plot , i could in the least , be questioned for . l. c. just. if you will have any witnesses called to that , you shall , my lord. l. russell . my lord anglesey , and mr. edward howard . my lord anglesey stood up . l. c. just. my lord russell , what do you ask my lord anglesey ? l. russell . to declare what my lord howard told him , about me , since i was confined . l. anglesey . my lord , i chanced to be in town the last week , and hearing my lord of bedford was in some distress and trouble , concerning the affliction of his son , i went to give him a visit , being my old acquaintance , of some years standing , i believe , for my lord and i was bred together at mandlin-college in oxon , i had not been there but a very little while , and was ready to go away again , after i had done the good office i came about , but my lord howard came in , i don't know whether he be here . l. howard . yes , here i am to serve your lordship . l. anglesey . and sat down on the other side of my lord of bedford , and he began to comfort my lord , and the arguments he used for his comfort , were , my lord , you are happy in having a wise son , and a worthy person , one that can never sure be in such a plot as this , or suspected for it , and that may give your lordship reason to expect a very good issue concerning him . i know nothing against him , or any body else , of such a barbarous-design , and therefore your lordship may be comforted in it . i did not hear this only from my lord howards mouth , but at my own home upon the monday after ; for i use to go to totteridge for fresh air ; i went down on saturday , this happened to be on friday , ( my lord being here , i am glad , for he can't forget this discourse , ) and when i came to town on monday , i understood that my lord howard upon that very sunday had been at church with my lady chaworth . my lady has a chaplain , it seems , that preaches there , and does the offices of the church , but my lady came to me in the evening . this i have from my lady — l. c. just. my lord , what you have from my lady is no kind of evidence at all . l. anglesey . i don't know what my lord is , i am acquainted with none of the evidence ; nor what hath been done . but my lady chaworth came to me , and acquainted me , there was some suspition — sir g. jeff. i don't think it fit for me to interrupt a person of your honour , my lord , but your lordship knows in what place we stand here , what you can say of any thing you heard of my lord howard , we are willing to hear , but the other is not evidence . as the court will not let us offer hear-says , so neither must we that are for the king permit it . l. anglesey . i have told you what happened in my hearing . then mr. howard stood up . l. c. just. come mr. howard , what do you know ? mr. howard . i must desire to say something of my self and my family first , my lord and i have been very intimate , not only as relations , but as dear friends . my lord , i have been of a family known to have great respect and duty for the king , and i think there is no family in the nation so numerous , that hath expressed greater loyalty , upon which account i improved my interest in my lord howard ; i endeavoured , upon the great misunderstanding of the nation , ( if he be here he knows it , ) to perswade him to apply himself to the king , to serve him in that great difficulty of state , which is known to all the world. i sometimes found my lord very forward , and sometimes i soften'd him , upon which parly , upon his permission , and more upon my own inclination of duty , i made several applications to ministers of state , ( and i can name them ) that my lord howard had a great desire of serving the king in the best way of satisfaction , and particularly in the great business of his brother . i wonder'd there should be so much sharpness for a matter of opinion , and i told my lord so , and we had several disputes about it . my lord , i do say this before i come to the thing . after this i did partly by his permission , and partly by my own inclination , to serve the king , because i thought my lord howard a man of parts , and saw him a man that had interest in the nation , tell my lord feversham , that i had prevailed with a relation of mine , that may be he might think opposite , that perhaps might serve the king in this great difficulty that is emergent , and particularly that of his brother . my lord feversham did receive it very kindly , and i writ a letter to him , to let him know how i had sof●ned my lord , and that it was my desire he should speak with my lord at oxon. my lord feversham gave me a very kind account when he came again , but he told me — l. c. just. pray apply your self to the matter you are called for . mr. howard . this it may be is to the matter , when you have heard me ; for i think i know where i am , and what i am to say . l. c. just. we must desire you not to go on thus . mr. howard . i must satisfie the world , as well as i can , as to my self , and my family , and pray do not interrupt me . after this , my lord , there never passed a day , for almost — l. c. just. pray speak to this matter . mr. howard . sir , i am coming to it . l. c. just. pray sir , he directed by the court. mr. howard . then now sir , i will come to the thing . upon this ground , i had of my lords kindness , i applied my self to my lord in this present issue , on the breaking out of this plot. my lord i thought certainly as hear as i could discern him ( for he took it upon his honor , his faith , and as much as if he had taken an oath before a magistrate , ) that he knew nothing of any man concerned in this business , and particularly of my lord russell , whom he vindicated with all the honour in the world. my lord , it is true , was afraid of his own person , and as a friend , and a relation , i concealed him in my house , and i did not think it was for such a conspiracy , but i thought he was unwilling to go to the tower for nothing again . so that if my lord howard , has the same soul on monday ; that he had a sunday , this can't be true , that he swears against my lord russell . this i say upon my reputation , and honour , and something i could say more , he added , he thought my lord russell did not only unjustly suffer , but he took god , and men to witnesse , he thought him the worthyest person in the world. i am very sorry to hear any man of my name , should be guilty of these things . l. russell . call dr. burnet . pray dr. burnet , did you hear any thing from my lord howard , since the plot was discovered concerning me . dr. burnet . my lord howard was with me , the night after the plot broke out , and he did then , as he had done before , with hands and eyes , lifted up to heaven , say he knew nothing of any plot , nor believed any , and treated it , with great scorn and contempt . l. howard . my lord , may i speak for my self . sir g. jeff. no , no my lord , we don't call you . l. c. just. will you please to have any other witnesses called . l. russel . there are some persons of quality , that i have been very well accquainted and conversed with , i desire to know of them : if there was any thing in my former carriage , to make them think me like to be guilty of this . my lord cavendish . l. cavendish . i had the honour to be acquainted with my lord russell a long time , i always thought him a man of great honour , and too prudent and wary a man to be concerned in so vile and desperate a design as this , and from which he would receive so little advantage , i can say nothing more , but that two or three days since the discovery of this plot , upon discourse about col. rumsey , my lord russell did express something , as if he had a very ill opinion of the man , and therefore it is not likely he would intrust him with such a secret. l. russell dr. tillotson , he appears . l. c. just. vvhat questions would you ask him my lord ? l. russell . he , and i , happened to be very conversant . to know whether he did ever find any thing tending to this in my discourse . l. c. just. my lord , calls you as to his life , and conversation , and reputation . dr tillotson . my lord , i have been many years last past acquainted with my lord russell , i always judged him a person of great vertue , and integrity , and by all the conversation and discourse i ever had with him , i always took him to be a person very far from any such wicked design he stands charged with . l. russell . dr. burnet . if you please to give some account of my conversation . dr. burnet . my lord , i have had the honour to be known to my lord russell . several years , and he hath declared himself , with much confidence to me , and he always upon all occasions expressed himself against all risings , and when he spoke of some people that would provose to it , he expressed himself so determined against that matter , i think no man could do more . l. c. just. vvill your lordship call any other vvitnesses ? l. russell . dr. cox. dr. thomas cox stood up . dr. cox. my lord , i did not expect to have been spoken to upon this account . having been very much with my lord of late , that is for a month or six weeks before this plot came out , i have had occasion to speak with my lord in private , about these publick matters . but i have always found that my lord was against all kind of risings , and thought it the greatest folly and madness , till things should come in a parliamentary way . i have had occasion often to speak with my lord russell in private , and having my self been against all kind of risings , or any thing that tended to the disorder of the publick , i have heard him profess solemnly , he thought it would ruin the best cause in the world to take any of these irregular ways for the preserving of it , and particularly my lord hath expressed himself occasionally of these two persons , my lord howard , and col. rumsey . one of them , col. rumsey , i saw once at my lords house , and he offered to speak a little privatly . but my lord told me he knew him but a little , i told him he was a valiant man , and acted his part valiantly in portugal . he say'd he knew him little , and that he had nothing to do with him but in my lord shaftsburys business . he say'd , for my lord howard , he was a man of excellent parts of luxuriant parts , but he had the luck not to be much trusted by any party . and i never heard him say one word of indecency , or immodestly towards the king. l. russell . i would pray the duke of somerset , to speak what he knows of me . d. of som. i have known my lord russell for about two years , and have had much conversation with him , and been often in his company , and never heard any thing from him , but what was very honourable , loyal , and just. l. c. just. my lord does say , that he has known my lord russell for about two years , and hath had much conversation with him , and been much in his company , and never heard any thing from him , but what was honourable , and loyal , and just , in his life . foreman of the jury . the gent. of the jury , desire to ask my lord howard something upon the point , my lord anglesey testified , and to know what answer he makes to my lord anglesey . l. c. baron . my lord , what say you to it , that you told his father he was a discreet man , and he needed not to fear his ingagement in any such thing ? l. howard . my lord , if i took it right , my lord angleseys testimony did branch it self into two parts , one of his own knowledg , and the other by hear-say , as to what he sayd of his own knowledg , when i waited upon my lord of bedford , and endeavoured to comfort him , concerning his son , i believe i sayd the words my lord anglesey has given an account of , as near as i can remember , that i looked upon his lordship , as a man of that honour , that i hoped he might be secure , that he had not intangled himself , in any thing of that nature . my lord , i can hardly be provoked to make my own defence , least this noble lord should suffer , so willing i am to serve my lord , who knows i can't want affection for him , my lord , i do confess i did say it ; for your lordship well knows under what circumstances we were , i was at that time to out-face the thing , both for my self , and my party , and i did not intend to come into this place , and act this part. god knows how it is brought upon me , and with what unwillingness i do sustain it , but my duty to god , the king , and my country , requires it , but i must confess , i am very sorry to carry it on thus far . my lord , i do confess i did say so , and if i had been to visit my lord pemberton , i should have say'd so , there is none of those that know my lord russell , but would speak of my lord russell , from those topicks of honour , modesty , and integrity , his whole life deserves it . and i must confess , i did frequently say , there was nothing of truth in this , and i wish this may be for my lords advantage . my lord , will you spare me one thing more , because that leans hard upon my reputation , and if the jury beleive that i ought not to be beleived , for i do think the religion of an oath , is not tyed to a place , but receives its obligation from the appeal , we therein make to god , and i think , if i called god and angels , to witness to a fals-hood , i ought not to be beleived now . but i will tell you , as to that , your lordship knows , that very man that was committed , was committed for a design of murdering the king , now i did lay hold on that part , for i was to carry my knife close between the parting , and the apple , and i did say , that if i were an enemy to my lord russell , and to the duke of monmouth , and were called to be a witness , i must have declared in the presence of god , and man , that i did not beleive either of them had any design to murder the king. i have said this , because i would not walk under the character of a person , that would be perjured at the expence of so noble a persons luc , and my own soul. l. russell . my lord clifford l. c. just. what do you please to ask my lord clifford . l. russell . he hath known my conversation for many years . l. clifford . i always took my lord , to be a very worthy honest man , i never saw any thing in his conversation to make me beleive otherwise . l. russell . mr. gore . mr. luton gore . i have been acquainted with my lord several years , and conversed much with him , in all the discourse i had with him , i never heard him let any thing fall that tended in the least to any rising , or any thing like it : i took him to be one of the best sons , one of the best fathers , and one of the best masters , one of the best husbands , one of the best friends , and one of the best christians we had . i know of no discourse concerning this matter . l. russel . mr. spencer , and dr. fitz williams . mr. spencer . my lord , i have known my lord russel many years , i have been many months with him in his house ; i never saw any thing by him , but that he was a most vertuous and prudent gentleman , and he had prayers constantly twice a day in his house . l. c. just. what , as to the general conversation of his life , my lord asks you whether it hath been sober . mr. spencer . i never saw any thing but very good , very prudent , and very vertuous . l. russel . what company did you see used to come to me . mr. spencer . i never saw any but his ne●r relations , or his own famely . i have the honour to be related to the family . then doctor fitz williams stood up . l. russel . if it please you doctor , you have been at my house several times , give an account of what you know of me . dr. fitz williams . i have had the knowledg of my lord these fourteen years , from the time he was married to his present lady , to whose father , eminent for loyalty ; i had a relation by service ; i have had acquaintance with him both at stratton and southampton buildings , and by all the conversation i had with him ; i esteemed him a man of that vertue , that he could not be guilty of such a crime as the conspiracy he stands charged with . l.c. j. my lord , does your lordship call any more witnesses ? l. russel . no , my lord , i will be very short . i shall declare to your lordship that i am one that have always had a heart sincerely loyal and affectionate to the king and the government , the best government in the world . i pray as sincerely for the kings happy and long life as any man alive ; and for me to go about to raise a rebellion , which i looked upon as so wicked and unpracticable , is unlikely . besides , if i had been inclined to it , by all the observation i made in the country , there was no tendency to it . what some hot-headed people have done there , is another thing . a rebellion can't be made now as it has been in former times ; we have few great men. i was always for the government , i never desired any thing to be redressed but in a parliamentary and legal way . i have been always against innovations , and all irregularities whatsoever , and shall be as long as i live , whether it be sooner or later . gentlemen , i am now in your hands eternally , my honour , my life , and all ; and i hope the heats and animosities that are amongst you will not so byass you , as to make you in the least inclined to find an innocent man guilty . i call to witness heaven and earth , i never had a design against the kings life in my life , nor never shall have . i think there is nothing proved against me at all , i am in your hands , god direct you . mr. sol. gen. my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner at the bar stands indicted for high treason , in conspiring the death of the king. the overt act that is laid to prove that conspiracy and imagination by , is the assembling in council to raise arms against the king , and raise a rebellion here . we have proved that to you by three witnesses . i shall endeavour as clearly as i can to state the substance of the evidence to you , of every one of them as they have delivered it . the first witness colonel romsey comes , and he tells you of a message he was sent of to mr. sheppards house to my lord russel , with several other persons who he was told would be there assembled together . and the message was , to know what readiness they were in , what resolutions they were come to concerning the rising at taunton . by this you do perceive that this conspiracy had made some progress , and was ripe to be put in action . my lord shaftesbury that had been a great contriver in it , he had pursued it so far , as to be ready to rise . this occasioned the message from my lord shaftesbury to my lord russel , and those noble persons that were met at mr. sheppards house , to know what the resolution was concerning the business of taunton , which you have heard explained by an undertaking of mr. trenchards : that the answer was , they were disappointed there , and they could not then be ready , and that my lord shaftesbury must be content . this message was delivered in presence of my lord russel ; the messenger had notice my lord russel was there ; the answer was given as from them all , that at present they could not be ready , because of that disappointment . col. romsey went further , and he swears there was a discourse concerning the surprizing of the guards ; and the duke of monmouth , my lord gray , and sir thomas armstrong , went to see in what posture they were in , whether it were feasible to surprize them , and they found them very remiss ; and that account they brought back , as is proved to you by mr. sheppard , the other witness , that it was a thing very feasible . but to conclude with the substance of col. romseys evidence , he says , my lord was privy to it , that he did discourse among the rest of it , though my lord was not a man of so great discourse as the rest , and did talk of a rising . he told you there was a rising determined to be on the th of november last , which is the substance of col. romseys evidence . gentlemen , the next witness is mr. sheppard , and his evidence was this : he swears that about october last , mr. ferguson came to him of a message from the duke of monmouth , to let him know , that he and some other persons of quality would be there that night ; that accordingly they did meet and my lord russel was there likewise ; that they did desire to be private , and his servants were sent away ; and that he was the man that did attend them . he swears there was a discourse-concerning the way and method to seize the guards ; he goes so far , as to give an account of the return of the errand the duke of monmouth , my lord gray , and sir thomas armstrong went upon , that it was feasible if they had strength to do it . then he went a little farther , and he told you there was a paper read , that in his evidence does not come up to my lord russel , for he did not say my lord russel was by , and i would willingly repeat nothing but what concerns the prisoner . this therefore col. romsey and mr. sheppard agree in , that there was a debate among them how to surprize the guards , and whether that was feasible , and mr. sheppard is positive as to the return made upon the view . the next witness was my lord howard ; he gives you an account of many things , and many things that he tells you are by hearsay . but i cannot but observe to you , that all this hearsay is confirmed by these two positive witnesses , and their oaths agree with him in it . for my lord shaftsbury told him of the disappointment he had met with from these noble persons that would not joyn with him ; and then he went from my lord shaftsbury to the duke of monmouth to expostulate with him about it ( for my lord shaftsbury was then ready to be in action ) and that the duke said he always told him , he would not engage at that time . this thing is confirmed to you by these two witnesses . col. romsey says , when he brought the message from my lord shaftsbury , the answer was . they were not ready , my lord must be contented . next he goes on with a discourse concerning my lord shaftsbury , ( that does not immedia●●ly come up to the prisoner at the bar , but it manifests there was a designe at that time ) he had brisk boys ( as he called them ) ready to follow him upon the holding up his finger . but it was thought not so prudent to begin it , unless they could joyn all their forces . so you hear in this they were disappointed : and partly by another accident too my lord howard had an apprehention it might be discovered , that was upon the proclamation that came out forbidding bonfires , to prevent the ordinary tum●lts that used to be upon those occasions . then my lord howard goes on and comes particularly to my lord russel : for upon this disappointment you , find my lord shaftsbury thought fit to be gone . but after that , the designe was not laid aside : for you hear they onely told him all along they could not be ready at that time , but the designe went on still to raise arms , and then they took upon themselves to consult of the methods of it ; and for the carrying it on with the greater secrecy , they chose a select council of six , which were the duke of monmouth , my lord of effix , my lord howard , my lord russel , mr. hambden , and col. sidney . that accordingly they met at mr. hambden's ( there was their first meeting ) and their consultation there was , how the insurrection should be made , whether first in london , or whether first in the country , or whether both in london and in the country at one time . they had some debates among themselves that it was fittest first to be in the country ; for if the king should send his guards down to suppress them , then the city that was then as well disposed to rise , would be without a guard , and easily effect their designes here . their next meeting was at my lord russel's own house , and there their debates were still about the same matter , how to get in scotland to their assistance ; and in order to that , they did intrust col. sidney one of their counsel to send a messenger into scotland for some persons to come hither , my lord melvin , sir hugh cambell , and sir iohn cockram . accordingly col. sidney sends aaron smith ( but this is onely what col. sidney told my lord afterwards , that he had done it , but ) you see the fruit of it . accordingly they are come to town , and sir hugh cambell is taken by a messenger upon his arrival ; and he had been but four days in town , and he had changed his lodging three times . now , gentlemen , this is the substance of the evidence that hath been produced against my lord russel . my lord russel hath made several objections , that he was accidentally at this meeting at mr. shephards house , and came about other business ; but i must observe to you , that my lord russel owned that he came along with the duke of monmouth , and i think he said he went away with him too . you observe what mr. sheppard's evidence was : mr. ferguson came to tell him the duke of monmouth would come , and accordingly the duke of monmouth did come , and brought his companion along with him , which was my lord russel ; and certainly they that met upon so secret an affair , would n●ver have brought one that had not been concerned . gentlemen , there are other objections my lord hath made , and those are in point of law ; but before i come to them , i would observe what he says to the second meeting . my lord does not deny but that he did meet both at mr. hambdens house and my lords own : i think my lord said they did meet onely to discourse of news ; and my lord howard being a man of excellent discourse , they met for his conversation . gentlemen , you can't believe that this designed meeting was for nothing , in this close secret meeting that they had no contrivance among them . you have heard the witness , he swears positively what the conversation was ; and you see the fruit of it , sir hugh cambell's coming to town , and absconding when it is discovered . now my lord russel insists upon it , that admitting these facts be proved upon him , they amount to no more than to a conspiracy to levy war , and that that is not treason within the statute of e. . and if it be onely within the statute of the th of this king , then 't is out of time , that directs the prosecution to be within six months . the law is plainly otherwise . the statute of the th of this king i will not now insist upon , though i believe if that be strictly looked into , the clause that says the prosecution shall be within six months , does not refer to treason , but only to the other offences that are highly punishable by that statute . for the proviso runs thus : . car. . provided always , that no person be prosecuted for any of the offences in this act mentioned , ( other than such as are made and declared to be high treason ) unless it be by order of the kings majesty , his heirs or successors , under his or their sign manual , or by order of the council-table of his majesty , his heirs or successors , directed unto the attorney general for the time being , or some other of the councel learned to his majesty , his heirs or successors for the time being : nor shall any person or persons by vertue of this present act incur any the penalties herein before mentioned , unless be or they be prosecuted within six months next after the offence committed , and indicted thereupon within three months after such prosecution ; any thing herein contained to the contrary notwithstanding . this word ( nor ) is a continuation of the former sentence , and the exception of high treason will go through all , and except that out of the temporary limitation of treason : but this is high treason within e. . to conspire to levy war , is an overt act to restifie the design of the death of the king. and the errour of my lord cook hath possibly led my lord into this mistake . but this , gentlemen , hath been determined ; it was resolved by all the judges in the case of my lord cobham , iac. a conspiracy to levy war against the kings person ( as this was a conspiracy to seize the guards ) what does that tend to , but to seize the king ? and that always hath been taken to be high treason . but there are some things called levying of war in law , that are not so directly against the king ; as if a number of men go about to levy men to overthrow all . inclosures , this by the generality of the intent , and because of the consequences , is accounted levying war against the king. a conspiracy therefore to levy such a war which by construction only is against the king , perhaps that may not be such an overt act as to testifie the imagination of the death of the king ; but other conspiracies to raise war against the king have always so been taken . 't is the resolution of all the judges in my lord dyers reports , the case of dr. story . a conspiracy to invite a forrein prince to make an invasion , though no invasion follow , is an overt act to prove conspiring the death of the king. and as it has been so taken , so it hath been practised but of late days . in the king's bench i take it , the indictment against plunket that was hanged , he was indicted for conspiring against the life of the king , and his charge went no further than for raising of arms , and inviting the french king in ; and he suffered . this is acknowledged by my lord cook ; for he himself said in the paragraph before that out of which this advice to my lord russel is extracted , that a conspiracy to invite a forein prince to invade the kingdom , is a conspiracy against the life of the king. and in the next paragraph , he says an overt act of one treason cannot be an overt act of another treason ; but constant practice is against him in that : for what is more common , than to indict a man for imagining the death of the king , and to assign the overt act in a conspiracy to raise arms against the king ? and sometimes they go on and say , did levy war against the king. now by my lord cook 's rule , levying war , unless the indictment be particular for that , is not an overt act for the compassing the death of the king ; but the contrary hath been resolved by all the judges in the case of sir henry vane , and it is the constant practice to lay it so in indictments . it would be a strange construction if this should not be high treason . 't is agreed by every body , to take the king prisoner , to seize the king , that is a compassing of the death of the king : and to sit in counsel to conspire to effect that , that is an overt act of the imagination of the death of the king : now no man can distinguish this case from that . and this consultation amounted to all this ; for plainly thither it tended . the consultation was to seize upon the kings guards , that could have no other stop but to seize upon the kings person , and bring him into their power . as to the killing of the king , i am apt to think that was below the honour of the prisoner at the bar ; but this is equal treason : if they designed only to bring the king into their power , till he had consented to such things as should be moved in parliament , 't is equally treason as if they had agreed directly to assassinate him . therefore i think there is nothing for you to consider , but to see that the fact be fully proved ; and i see nothing that hath been sald by my lord russel that does invalidate our evidence . he hath produced several witnesses , persons of honour : my lord anglesey he tells you of a discourse my lord howard had with my lord of bedford ; that he told my lord of bedford that he needed not to fear , for he had a wise and understanding son , and could not think he should be guilty of any such thing as was laid to his charge . this is brought to invalidate my lord howard's testimony . gentlemen , do but observe , my lord howard was as deep in as any of them , and was not then discovered : is it likely that my lord howard , that lay hid , should discover to my lord of bedford that there was a conspiracy to raise arms , and that he was in it ? this would have been an aspertion upon my lord of bedford , that any such thing should have been said . mr. edward howard is the next , and he proves , that my lord howard used solemn protestations that he knew nothing of this conspiracy . i did observe , that worthy gentleman in the beginning of his discourse ( for it was pretty long ) said first that he had been several times tempting my lord howard to come over , and be serviceable to the king , and if he knew any thing , that he would come and confess it . why gentlemen mr. howard that had come to him upon these errands formerly , and had thought he had gained him , i conceive you do not wonder if my lord howard did not reveal himself to him , who presently would have discovered it for , for that errand he came . but if my lord had had a design to have come in and saved his life , he would have made his submission voluntarily , and made his discovery . but my lord tells nothing till he is pinched in his conscience , and confounded with the guilt ( being then in custody ) and then he tells the whole truth , that which you have heard this day . gentlemen , this hath been all that hath been objected against the witnesses , except what is said by dr. burnet ; and he says that my lord howard declared to him , that he believed there was no plot , and laughed at it . why gentlemen , the dr. would take it ill to be thought a person fit to be intrusted with the discovery of this ; therefore what he said to him signifies nothing , for 't is no more than this , that he did not discover it to the dr. but the last objection ( which i see there has been a great many persons of honour and quality called to ) is , that 't is not likely my lord russel should be guilty of any thing of this kind , being a man of that honour , vertue , and so little blameable in his whole conversation . i do confess gentlemen this is a thing that hath weight in it . but consider on the other hand , my lord russel is but a man , and hath his humane frailties about him . men fall by several temptations ; some out of revenge , some by malice fall into such offences as these are : my lord russel is not of that temper , and therefore may be these are not the ingredients here . but gentlemen , there is another great and dang●●ous temptation that attends people in his circumstances , whether it be pride , or ambition , or the cruel snare of popularity , being cryed up as a patron of liberty . this hath been a dangerous temptation to many , and many persons of vertue have fallen into it , and 't is the only way to tempt persons of vertue ; and the devil knew it , for he that tempted the patern of vertue , shew'd him all the kingdoms of the world , and said , all these will i give thee , if thou wilt fall down and worship me . though he be a person of vertue , yet it does not follow , but his vertue may have some weak part in him . and i am afraid , these temptations have pr●vailed upon my lord. for i cannot give my self any colour of objection , to disbelieve all these witnesses who give in their testimony . i see no contradiction , no correspondence , no contrivance at all between them . you have plain oaths before you , and i hope you will consider the weight of them , and the great consequence that did attend this case , the o●●●throw of the best government in the world , and the best and most unspotted religion , which must needs have suffered ; the greatest liberty and the greatest security for property that ever was in any nation , bounded every way by the rules of law , and those kept sacred . i hope you will consider the weight of this evidence , and consider the consequences such a conspiracy , if it had taken effect , might have had . and so i leave it to your consideration upon the evidence you have heard . sir geo. jefferies . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , this cause hath detained your lordship a long time , by reason of so many witnesses being called , and the length of the defence made by the prisoner at the bar ; and if it had not been for the length i would not have injured your patience by saying any thing , mr. sollicitor having taken so much pains in it . it is a duty incumbent upon me , under the circumstances i now stand , to see if any thing hath been omitted that hath not been observed to you ; and i shall detain you with very few words . gentlemen , you must give me leave to tell you , 't is a case of great consequence , of great consequence to that noble person that now is at the bar , as well as to the king : for it is not desired by the king nor by his counsel , to have you influenced in this matter by any thing but by the truth , and what evidence you have received . you are not to be moved by compassion or pity : the oath you have taken is to go according to your evidence ; and you are not to be moved by any insinuations that are offered by us for the king , nor by any insinuations by the prisoner at the bar , but the truth according to the testimony given , must be your guide . how far the law will affect this question , that we are not to apply to you for ; for that we are to apply our selves to the court ( they are the judges in point of law ) who will take so much care in their directions to you , that you may be ve●y well satisfied you will not easily be led into errour . for the instances that have been pu● , i could put several others , but i will take notice onely of one thing that that noble person at the bar seems to object . gentlemen , it is not necessary there should be two witnesses to the self-same fact at the self-same time ; but if there be two witnesses tending to the self-same fact , though it was at several times , and upon several occasions , they will be in point of law two witnesses which are necessary to convict a man for high-treason . gentlemen , i make no doubt this thing is known to you all , not onely by the judgment of all the judges in england , but the judgement of the lords in parliament , when i doubt not the prisoner at the bar did attend in the case of my lord stafford , wherein one witness gave an account of a conspiracy in england , turbervile of another in france ; and by the opinion of all my lords the judges , approved in parliament , that was enough , and he was convicted . the question is , whether we have sufficiently proved this matter . gentlemen , i must tell you , we rake no gaols , nor bring any pro●●gate persons , persons that wanted faith or credit before this time . i must tell you , that notwithstanding the fair notice that hath been given to the prisoner at the bar ( that you see he hath taken an advantage of it , he hath given an account of a private conversation with my lord howard before that noble person that was witness against him was taken ) he has not given you in all his proof hitherto , nay i say , he has not pretended any thing in the world : wherefore you , gentlemen , that are upon your oaths , should take it upon your consciences , that two men , against whom there is no objection , should come to damn their own souls to take away the life of this gentleman ; when there is no quarrel , no temptation wherefore these gentlemen should come in the face of a court of justice , in the face of such an auditory , without respect to that infinite being to whom they appeal for confirmation of the truth of their testimony : and if they had the faith of men or christians , they must necessarily conclude , that if they did swear to take away a mans life ●hat was innocent , god would sink them down presently into hell. gentlemen , in the next place i must acquaint you , that the first witness , col. romsey , it is apparent he was taken notice of by the prisoner as a man fit to be trusted , he was engaged by my lord shaftsbury : but , says he , would any man believe that that man that had received so many marks of the kings favour , both in advantage to his estate , his honour , and person , could be ever contriving such an hellish designe as this ▪ gentlemen , if you will argue from such uncertain conjectures , then all criminals will come off . who should think that my lord of essex , who had been advanced so much in his estate and honour , should be guilty of such desperate things ! which had he not been conselous of , he would scarcely have brought himself to that untimely end , to avoid the methods of publick justice . col. romsey tells you my lord shaftsbury was concerned in this conspiracy . i am sorry to find that there have been so many of the nobility of this land that have lived so happily under the benign influence of a gracious prince , should make so ill returns . gentlemen , i must appeal to you whether in your observation you found col. romsey to be over-hasty and an over-zealous witness ; he did not come as if he came in spight to the prisoner at the bar : you found how we were forced to pump out every thing ; but after he had been pressed over and over again , then he came to it : so that i observe to you , that he was an unwilling witness . gentlemen , give me leave to observe to you , the prisoner at the bar , before such time as mr. sheppard came up and gave evidence against him , says he , i come only by accident , only to tast a parcel of wine . mr. sheppard when he comes up , he tells you , there was no such design . ferguson ( that was the person he kept company with , the reverend dean and the rest of the clergy of the church of england , they were not fit to be trusted with it , but this independent parson ferguson ) he gives notice of the coming of these persons , and in pursuance of this notice they all come , they come late , in the evening , not in the posture and quality they use to go , for you find they had not so much as a coach. is it probable they came to tast wine ? wherefore did they go up into a room ? wherefore did they order mr. sheppard that none of the boys should come up , but that the master must fetch the sugar and wine himself ? wherefore you may perceive the action they were upon , there were only to be such persons as had an affection for such a cause . you find pursuant to what col. romsey says , that there was a direction to take a view of the guards , that sir tho. armstrong comes back and makes this report : says he , i have taken notice they are in such an idle careless posture , that it is not impossible to surprize them . this mr. sheppard he does not come , nor does he appear to you to come here out of any vindictive humor , to do the prisoner at the bar any hurt . in the next place we have my lord howard , he comes and positively tells you after he had given an account ( for you observe there were two parts to be acted in this horrid tragedy ; there was first the scoundrel sort of people were to be concerned to take away the life of the king and the duke , the great persons were to head the party in the rising ) they put themselves in proper postures , each of them consenting to something of the surprize , inasmuch as you observe that sir thomas armstrong and some other persons might not be trusted . they come and resolve themselves out of a general council , and they meet in a particular council of six , looking upon themselves as the heads of the party : and i must tell you many of them ( we live not in an age of such obscurity , but we know them ) how fond have they been of the applause of the people ! as that person incouraged himself yesterday , they were liberatores patriae that could murder the king and the duke . my lord , i must take notice that this noble lord is known to have an intimacy with him ; you observe with how much tenderness he is pleased to deliver himself , how carefully he reports the debates of the particular consults of the persons to be intrusted in the management ; he tells you that noble lord the prisoner at the bar was pitched upon , and algernoone sidney , a man famous about the town , for what ? to call in parties from some of his majesties other dominions , persons we know ripe enough for rebellion , to assist . pursuant to this , you find persons sent of a message for some to come over , whereof some are in hold : so that for all dark and obscure sort of matters , nothing can be brought better to light than this , of taking all matters together , with the concurring circumstances of time and place . gentlemen , i must confess this noble lord hath given an account by several honourable persons of his conversation ; which is a very easie matter . do you think if any man had a design to raise a rebellion against the crown , that he would talk of it to the reverend divines , and the noble lords that are known to be of integrity to the crown ? do you think the gentleman at the bar would have so little concern for his own life , to make this discourse his ordinary conversation ? no , it must be a particular consult of six , that must be intrusted with this . i tell you , 't is not the divines of the church of england , but an independent divine , that is to be concerned in this ; they must be persons of their own complexion and humour . for men will apply themselves to proper instruments . gentlemen , i would not labour in this case ; for far be it from any man to endeavour to take away the life of the innocent . and whereas that noble lord says , he hath a vertuous good lady , he hath many children , he hath vertue and honour he puts into the scale : gentlemen , i must tell you on the other side , you have consciences , religion ; you have a prince , and a merciful one too ; consider the life of your prince , the life of his posterity , the consequences that would have attended if this villany had taken effect . what would have become of your lives and religion ? what would have become of that religion we have been so fond of preserving ? gentlemen , i must put these things home upon your consciences . i know you will remember the horrid murder of that most pious prince the martyr , king charles the first . how far the practices of those persons have influenced the several punishments since , is too great a secret for me to examine . but now i say you have the life of a merciful king , you have a religion that every honest man ought to stand by , and i am sure every loyal man will venture his life and fortune for . you have your wives and children . let not the greatness of any man corrupt you , but discharge your consciences both to god and the king , and to your posterity . l.c.j. gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner at the bar stands indicted before you of high treason , in compassing and designing the death of the king , and in declaring of it by overt acts , endeavouring to raise insurrections and popular commotions in the kingdom here . to this he hath pleaded not guilty . you have heard the evidence that hath been against him , it hath been at large repeated by the kings counsel , which will take off a great deal of my trouble in repeating it to you again . i know you cannot but take notice of it , and remember it , it having been stated twice by two of the kings counsel to you ; 't is long , and you see what the parties here have proved . there is first of all col. roms●y , he does attest a meeting at mr. sheppard's house , and you hear to what purpose he says it was , the message that he brought , and the return he had ; it was to enquire concerning a rising at ta●nton ; and that he had in return to my lord shaftsbury was , that mr. trenchard had failed them , and my lord must be contented , for it could not be that time . you hear that he does say that they did design a rising ; he saith there was a rising designed in november , i think he saith the th , upon the day of queen elizabeth's birth . you hear he does say , there was at that meeting some discourse concerning inspecting the kings guards , and seeing how they kept themselves , and whether they might be surprized ; and this he says was all in order to a rising . he says that at this my lord russel was present . mr. sheppard does say , that my lord russel was there : that he came into this meeting with the duke of monmouth , and he did go away with the duke of monmouth as he believes . he says there was some discourse of a rising or insurrection that was to be procured within the kingdom ; but he does not tell you the particulars of any thing , he himself does not . my lord howard afterwards does come and tell you of a great discourse he had with my lord shaftsbury in order to a rising in the city of london , and my lord shaftsbury did value himself mightily upon men he hoped to raise ; and a great deal of discourse he had with my lord shaftsbury . this he does by way of inducement to what he says concerning my lord russel . the evidence against him is some consults that there were by six of them , who took upon them , as he says , to be a council for the management of the insurrection that was to be procured in this kingdom . he instances in two that were for this purpose ; the one of them at mr. hambden's house , the other at my lord russel's house . and he tells you at these meetings there was some discourse of providing treasure , and of providing arms , but they came to no result in these things . he tells you , that there was a design to send for some of the kingdom of scotland that might joyn with them in this thing . and this is upon the matter the substance of the evidence that hath been at large declared to you by the king's counsel , and what you have heard . now , gentlemen , i must tell you , some things it lies upon us to direct you in . my lord excepts to these witnesses , because they are concerned by their own shewing in this design : if there were any , i did direct ( some of you might hear me ) yesterday , that that was no sufficient exception against a mans being an evidence in the case of treason , that he himself was concerned in it ; they are the most proper persons to be evidence , none being able to detect such councils but them . you have heard my lord russels witnesses that he hath brought concerning , them , and concerning his own integrity and course of life , how it has been sober and civil , with a great respect to religion , as these gentlemen do all testifie . now the question before you will be , whether upon this whole matter you do believe my lord russel had any design upon the kings life , to destroy the king , or take away his life , for that is the material part here . 't is used and given you ( by the king's counsel ) as an evidence of this , that he did conspire to raise an insurrection ; and to cause a rising of the people , to make as it were a rebellion within the nation , and to surprize the king's guards , which say they can have no other end but to seize and destroy the king ; and 't is a great evidence ( if my lord russel did design to seize the king's guards , and make an insurrection in the kingdom ) of a design for to surprize the king's person . it must be left to you upon the whole matter : you have not evidence in this case as there was in the other matter that was tried in the morning or yesterday , against the conspirators to kill the king at the rye . there was a direct evidence of a consult to kill the king , that is not given you in this case ; this is an act of contriving rebellion and an insurrection within the kingdom , and to seize his guards , which is urged as an evidence , and surely is in it self an evidence to seize and destroy the king. upon this whole matter this is left to you . if you believe the prisoner at the bar to have conspired the death of the king , and in order to that to have had these consults that these witnesses speak of , then you must find him guilty of this treason that is laid to his charge . then the court adjourned till four a clock in the afternoon , when the iury brought the said lord russel in guilty of the said high treason . the tryal of john rovse . thursday july . john rouse and william blagg being set to the bar , and after holding up their hands , the following indictment was read . london . london . the jurors for our soveraign lord the king , upon their oaths present , that john rouse late of london gent. and william blagg late of london gent. as false traytors against the most illustrious and excellent prince our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france , and ireland , king , their natural lord , not having the fear of god in their hearts , nor weighing the duty of their allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil ; and the true duty and natural obedience which true and faithful subjects of our soveraign lord the king towards him our said lord the king do bear , and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing , and with their whole strength intending the peace and common tranquillity of this kingdom of england to disturb , and war and rebellion against our said lord the king to move and stir up , and the government of our said lord the king within this kingdom of england to subvert , and our said lord the king from his title , honour , and kingly name of the imperial crown of this his ●●●●dom of england to put down and deprive , and our said lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , the second day of march , in the year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second king of england , &c. the five and thirtieth ; and divers other days and times , as well before as after , at the parish of st. michael bassishaw in the ward of bassishaw , london , maliciously and traiterously with divers other traytors to the jurors aforesaid unknown , they did conspire , compass , imagine , and intend our said lord the king their supream lord , not onely of his kingly state , title , power , and government of this his kingdom of england to deprive and throw down , but also our said lord the king to kill , and to death to bring and put ; and the ancient government of this his kingdom of england to change , alter , and wholly to subvert , and a miserable slaughter amongst the subjects of our said lord the king through his whole kingdom of england to cause and procure , and insurrection and rebellion against our said lord the king to move and stir up within this kingdom of england . and to fulfil and perfect the said most horrible treasons and traiterous conspiracies , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid , the said john rouse and william blagg , then and there , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , as false traytors , maliciously , traiterously , and advisedly they did assemble , meet together , and consult between themselves and with the said other traytors to the jurors aforesaid unknown , and with them did treat of taking and seizing the tower of london , and of and for the executing and perfecting their treasons and traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid . and that they the said john rouse and william blagg , as false traytors , maliciously , traiterously , and advisedly , then and there , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , they and either of them did undertake , and to the said other traytors did promise for themselves to be aiding and assisting in the execution of the treasons and traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid , and in providing arms and armed men to fulfil and perfect the said treasons and traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid . and the said most wicked treasons and traiterous compassings , imaginations , and purposes aforesaid to fulfil and bring to pass , they the said john rouse and william blagg , as false traytors , maliciously , traiterously , and advisedly , then and there did procure and prepare arms , to wit , blunderbusses , carbines , and pistols ; against the duty of their allegiance , against the peace of our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statutes in that case made and provided , &c. cl. of cr. what sayest thou , john rouse , art thou guilty of this high-treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? rouse . not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit , how wilt thou be tried ? rouse . by god and my country . cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance . what sayest thou , william blagg , art thou guilty of this high-treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? capt. blagg . not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? capt. blagg . by god and my country . cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance . friday july , in the afternoon , the court being met , and proclamation made , cl. of cr. set john rouse and william blagg to the bar. you the prisoners at the bar , these good men that you hear called , are to pass between our soveraign lord the king upon tryal of your several lives and deaths ; if you will challenge them or any of them , your time is as they come to the book to be sworn , before they are sworn . nicholas charlton . capt. blagg . i hope i shall onely speak for my self . l. c. j. yes , you shall be heard . rouse . my lord , i have had no liberty so much as sending for my wife . monday morning they gave me notice of tryal , but i have had no advantage of that notice ; i presumed it is meant we should have the liberty of subjects , but though notice was then given , yet i had not the liberty of sending for any body till wednesday . it was or of the clock on wednesday night that one came and told me , i should have no liberty of counsell unless i had it from the court ; and yesterday morning i found that captain blage and i were joyned in one indictment , which alters the case with submission to the court. what time i have had for tryal has been so short , i have not been able to get my witnesses ready . i desire nothing but as an english man. l. c. j. as an english-man you can demand no time to prepare , for tryal , for those that will commit crimes they must be ready to answer for them , and defend themselves . 't is matter of fact you are charged with , you knew long agoe what you were to be tryed for , for you were taken up and charged with high treason . you might then reasonably consider what kind of evidence would be against you ; if you be an innocent person you may defend your self without question . but if you have done an ill thing , the law does not design to give you time to shelter your self under any subterfuge , or make any excuse , or to prepare any witnesses to testify an untrue thing for you . rouse . my lord , i only beg a little time , i don't design to make any evasion , that i am innocent i thank god i am . l. c. j. we can't give you any further time unless the king pleases , we are bound to try those he brings before us . sir g. jeff. because captain blage does desire not to be joyned to the other , we that are for the king are contented , that rouse be tryed first . [ then captain blage was taken away , and after several persons challenged by rouse , the iury that were sworn were ] robert beddingfeild , john pelling , william windbury , theophilus man , john short , senior . thomas nicholas , richard hoare , thomas barnes , henry robbins , henry kempe , edward raddish , edward kempe . cl. of cr. john rouse , hold up thy hand . you of the jury look upon the prisoner and hearken to his cause ; he stands indicted — prout antea in the indictment mutatis mutandis ; upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto pleaded not guilty , and for his tryal put himself upon his country , which country you are , your charge is to inquire , &c. mr. jones . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner at the bar stands indicted for high treason , in conspiring the death of the king , and in order thereunto consulting how to-seize the tower , and in providing of arms in order to destroy the king and subvert the government ; if we prove it upon him , you are to find him guilty . sir g. jeff. the prisoner at the bar was ( as you have been acquainted ) in that horrid conspiracy , whereof several of the conspirators have been brought to tryal , and received a verdict surely according to evidence . the prisoner at the bar did bear a proportion among the rest . it does occur to your memorys , there were several undertakers that undertook several stations ; some whereof were to undertake the blackest part of this horrid villany , by the taking off the king and his r. highness his brother ; others ( in order to the same design ) were to seize upon the king's guards , and so to deprive him of all manner of defence whatsoever , and to prevent all persons to make any defence against them , as you heard there was another part to be acted , therefore the town was to be divided into several divisions , i think there was twenty , but the most numerous and beneficial parts were thought to be about wapping . a particular part of the evidence was , that the tower was to be seized and the kings arms there , i know you observed that they took notice of a particular place of the tower that was most capable of access . this rouse is a gentleman very well known , 't is not the first time he hath been at this barr : he was here at a time when the common justice of the nation could not be obtained in this place , in so much that the judges who came to execute justice , had more reason to fear being executed upon the bench than the prisoner at the bar. it may easily appear how far mr. rouse was concerned ( i don't love to aggravate matters , he has crimes enough ) he was reckoned pay master to this rabble , he was to take care to manage those persons that were to seize upon the tower. he is a man of great skill in that subject , a doctrine wherein he was well tuto●ed under a lord you heard mentioned this morning , but he is in his grave and so i shall say no more of him . we shall give you an account of a design he had how to compass this business . black heath was looked upon as a convenient place , where there was to be a golden ball , for which the sea-men were to play in great numbers , and he that won the prize was to have the golden ball , but his eye was upon the tower all this while . he thought to allure these silly sea-men by the advantage of the honourable winning of this ball , and when they were fraighted with the success of this meeting , then it was proper to attack the tower. we shall prove the other prisoner that was at the barr ingaged with this prisoner at the barr. we shall not only prove this , but that mr. rouse hath been always of an inclination against the government . we shall call you witnesses , that he hath undertaken to dispute by what authority the king comes to govern into england , that he hath said he had forfeited his government , that he told an ordinary miscreant one of his levellers , that he had as much right to the crown as he had . my lord , if we prove this matter to your lordship , and the gentlemen of the jury , it will be high time for us to endeavour to preserve the crown upon that royal head , upon which all loyal men desire it should flourish as long as the sun and moon indure . mr. burton . call thomas leigh . ( who was sworn . ) mr. jones . pray give us an account what you know concerning mr. rouse . mr. north. of any design against the king , and providing arms. rouse . if it please you my lord , one word before he speaks : i have an exception against him . i wonder with what confidence you can look in my face at this time . kings counsell . nay , nay , speak to the court. rouse . my lord , he is a person that before he was taken up , was swore by two persons to have a hand in the plot , one was mr. keeling , the other mr. how of old street , and then being taken up , and conscious to himself that he was guilty of such notorious crimes , and knowing i was pretty well acquainted with him , he was deadly afraid i should come and swear against him , and thereupon he took the boldness to swear against me first . mr. north. my lord , he hath offered nothing of objection . rouse . i suppose with submission to the court , without he have his pardon , he is no evidence in this case . sir g. jeff. come tell us all you know . mr. leigh . if it please you my lord , i have been concerned in this conspiracy , i know something of it , but i believe mr. rouse knows a great deal more . mr. rouse takes me to the kings head tavern in swithins-alley , where after some time mr. goodenough came , where there was a clubb of men that was in the conspiracy . i had seen mr. goodenough before , he acquainted me that there was an apprehension our rights and priviledges were invaded , and it was time to look to our selves , for popery was designed , and arbitrary power ; and therefore he desired to know whether i would ingage in that affair to prevent it , and withall he told me , the city of london and middlesex was divided in twenty-parts , and he asked me to ingage in one part . i told him , my acquaintance did not ly where i lived , but i would get a part where my acquaintance was . i acquainted mr. rouse and mr. goodenough what men i had spoke to mr. goodenough told me , the design was to set up the duke of monmouth , and kill the king and the duke of york , but that all parties must not know of it : but that we must tell some people there was like to be a foraign invasion , and ask them what readiness they were in , and if we found they were like to be compliant in that , then we might discourse with them about the other matter . i discoursed with several men about this affair : and he told me , the lord mayor and aldermen were to be killed immediately , ( especially the present lord mayor sir iohn moor ) and their houses plundred , and there would be riches enough , and that would help to maintain the army , and we went on further in this discourse . then i acquainted mr. rouse with this business , but he knew of it before , and he did tell me he could provide arms for an hundred men , and said nothing was to be done unless the king was seized ; saying , we remember since forty one the king went and set up his standard ; therefore ( says he ) we will seize them , that they shall not set up their standard . but ( says he ) i am for seizing them ; but not for shedding their blood . mr. rouse went off with that discourse , says he , i must speak with mr. goodenough and some of those that are principally concerned . mr. rouse acquainted me , that it was a very convenient thing to have a ball played upon black-heath , and to that end we must speak to some sea captains , and ( says he ) i will ingage ten , and they shall manage that affair , and he that wins the ball take it . but when they have so done , every captain shall take his party , and tell them they have other work , and then go with long boats and arms and seize the tower. i acquainted mr. goodenough with this , and mr. goodenough asked me the charge of the golden ball , mr. rouse had told me it would be ten or a dozen pounds ; mr. goodenough said , if it was forty pound he would be at the charge of it all . several such discourses mr. rouse hath in my hearing spoke to several men at the kings-head tavern . i understood i was sworn against , i heard of it at the kings head tavern in his company and mr. goodenough's . mr. rouse directed me to go to the sun tavern near moorgate , and he would come to me , and there mr. rouse and mr. goodenough came to me , and mr. rouse told me i should ly at his house . mr. rouse cut off my hair , and went to mr. bateman's and fetched me a perriwigg ; mr. rouse and i went several times to view the tower , and took mate lee along with us . so mate lee directed us to traitors-bridge , and he said that was an easy place , and he would undertake to do it with an hundred men , so they had but hand granadoes . we had some time before that appointed to meet at wapping , to speak with the sea-captains mr. rouse met the first day in order to this business at the amsterdam coffee house , and there mr. rouse met with two sea-captains ( as he told me , that were to officiate in this business , and the two captains he took to the angel and crown in threadneedle-street . a small time after , about an hour and a half or thereabouts , mr. rouse came ( i am not positive whether mr. goodenough were there or no ) and told me , he had spoke to both the sea-captains , and they were willing , but one was going to new iersy , and therefore the work must be done before he went , or he could not assist : another time he appointed mate lee to meet at the anchor in wapping . i did speak to mr. goodenough , but he did not meet us , so that we could not go down that day , but mr. rouse always undertook that business to get ten sea-captains , and get armes for an hundred men . after i was sworn against , and went to mr. rouse's house ; the next day mr. nelthrop and mr. goodenough came to me to mr. rouse's , says mr. rouse be not discouraged , let the business go on . i was directed by mr. nelthrop and mr. goodenough when ever i was taken into custody i should deny all , and it could not touch my life . i thank him for his kindness , i lay well , and eat well at his house , my lord ; but however i will tell the truth . we met afterwards several times , and went to captain blage's , and the rest of the company , but at different places . we had an accompt that mr. goodenough was in the north raising men , and that the duke of monmouth was thereabouts , and that a deliverance should be wrought for all this . l. c. j. about what time was this ? mr. leigh . in last june . the design was so laid , that i was told it was to be done in a fortnight . they never agreed on a way or method of killing the king , but they told me they had a thousand horse ready in the country , and that there was five hundred horse or thereabouts ready in the town , and that the king should be killed coming from windsor . now they were contriving how to send arms that they might not be suspected to some private place , they were to be sent in trunks to some private house , and there they were to arm themselves in the night , and some brisk men were to go to windsor to know when the king came , and give information , and so they were to set upon him in some convenient pla●e , and b●●● were to be taken off together , the king and the duke ; and mr. rouse said , take them off , and then no man can have commission to fight for them . sir g. jeff. he is a polititian every inch of him . mr. jones . what did he imploy you to do ? mr. leigh . i was imployed by mr. goodenough to make all the friends i could in this ingagement . i went into spittle-fields and ingaged some weavers and other people . they promised me a gratuity , but i never had any thing . sir g. jeff. if mr. rouse has a mind to ask him any questions . rouse . i will my lord. l. c. j. propose your questions to the court. rouse i ask him by the oath he has taken , whether ever i spake with him of any design against the king and government ? i ask you whether you did not begin with me ? l. c. j. you hear his question , answer it . mr. leigh . for that i answer , that mr. rouse was the first man that ever i heard propose that the king and the duke should be secured , and there is another thing come in my mind , mr. rouse hath been a traveller , he did presume to say , and has said to me , and in company , that the king was sworn in france and spain to bring in popery and arbitrary power in so many years , and therefore it was no sin to take him off , and he told me he had it under his own hand . rouse . it was impossible my lord. sir g. jeff. i do beleive it . i do not believe he thought thee fit to be a secretary . l. c. j. look you , if you would have any thing asked him , propose it to me . rouse . what place was it i began to speak of any thing of this design ? mr. leigh . the kings-head . rouse . who was with us ? mr. leigh . mr. goodenough and several others . rouse . was it discoursed of before them ? mr. leigh . no , you never discoursed of it before them . rouse . you discoursed of going an hay-making in the country , says you , i will trust them one alone , but says you i am under an oath of secresy not to communicate it but to one at a time , but i make bold to acquaint you with it ; i give you an accompt what i heard from his own mouth . l. c. j. look you , what you heard from him will signify nothing unless you are able to make proof of it by other witnesses : if you will ask him any questions you shall . we will hear what you can say for your self at last . but you must not invade the kings evidence with any discourse at randome . rouse . did i ever put you upon any thing of this nature ? did you not tell me , there was a design to overturn the government , but you would not shed blood ? mr. leigh . i will answer ; i can't be positive whether i came to mr. rouse or he to me . i had been in his company several times before , and whether he discoursed it first to me or i to him i cannot tell , but when that point was discoursed , he was very zealous to get en captains , and that the ball might be played and the tower taken . rouse . d●d ever mr. goodenough and you and i meet upon such an accompt ? mr. leigh . yes , at the kings-head tavern . rouse . i can take my oath i never saw mr. goodenough but twice in your company , and i never knew you till may last . sir g. jeff. you came to a very strict alliance by that time it came to june . [ mate lee sworn . ] sir g. jeff. tell my lord and the jury what you know , the whole truth , and nothing but the truth . lee. the whole truth i will tell . about a week before midsummer or thereabouts i met mr. rouse , i think it was in popes-head alley , going to look after captain blage : says mr. rouse i have something to say to you , but he did forbear speaking it then ; so i went to the kings head tavern by the exchange , we went into a little room ; says he , there is something i would have you do . what 's that ? says i. says he , can't you get some sea-men sitting to make commanders of ships . i did not understand mr. rouse's meaning in it , but i thought mr. rouse being in employment might put me in , being destitute of employment , as well as other men . so after we did appoint to meet at wapping , at the sign of the blew-anchor in wapping-dock . says mr. rouse ; if i come not at ten of the clock do not look for me . says he , can you get no men that are fit to make commanders of ships ? says i , i have no acquaintance with any , i do not know but two or three : but says i , i will see what i can do . i waited for mr. rouse and mr. leigh next day ( both were to come . ) the next day i asked him , what he intended by the commanders of the ships ? where would he have those ships ? he answered some of the kings men of war that lay at deptford and woolwich to make guard ships . says i , what will you do if you have no powder and shot ? if you could take the tower , then you might provide them with every thing fitting . says mr. rouse we must secure the tower and whitehall both , or we can do nothing . says i mr. rouse , where is your oath of allegiance then that is to the king ? says he we will secure the king that he shall come to no damage , and he shall remain king still . if mr. rouse ha●h any thing to object against what i say , i desire to hear it , i speak nothing but the truth . sir g. jeff. did you meet with him at any other time ? lee. this was the first time he put out any such thing to me , concerning any such contrivance . sir g. jeff. did you meet with him afterwards ? lee. yes , we had some discourse , it was to the same effect , but it signifie● nothing , and my memory being shallow i do not exactly remember it . i know i must give an accompt of this before a greater court than this . mr. burton . mr. corbin ! sir g. jeff. i did acquaint you , my lord , that there was occasion to make use of evidence against the prisoner at the barr , i gave you an account how that evidence was not receiv'd . now i desire to give you proo● that the continual inclination of this man's heart was the killing of the king , and destruction of the government . [ mr. thomas corbin sworn . ] sir g. jeff. pray sir , tell my lord and the gentlemen of the jury , what meetings you had her ●ofore with the prisoner about the year eighty one or thereabouts . see whether you know him . mr. corbin . what i have to say against mr. rouse is only what i gave in evidence to the court before . rouse . when was that . mr. corbin . in eighty one. l. c. j. pray what do you know of him ; don't tell us what you gave in evidence , but you are on your oath to speak truth , not what you said then . mr corbin . my lord , some few days before the mem●ers for the city of london went for oxford , i happened to appoint a gentleman ( one mr wya● to meet me at mr. leeches in cornhill . mr. rouse came by , i knew him very well ; he was concerned in the commission for disbanding the army as well as i. he came in and saluted not only me but the master of the shop with how do you ? he entred into discourse , and said he intended to go for oxford , and that he had agree● with the coffee-men about town to furnish them with news , says he , there are several gentlemen resorting to your shop , it would do well if you had it . says mr. l●ch what shall i give you ? says he , if you will go to the tavern we will agree it over a glass of wine . but mr. rouse told me he had a kindness to beg o● me , and ( say he ) i would have you ingage some of your friends to deliver them speedily to such a person i shall appoint , de die ●n diem ; for says he , if they b● delivered by the ordinary letter-carrier , they won't turn to accompt , nor give satisfaction . by and by mr. wyat came in , ( that i was to meet at the stationers ) mr. wyat asked me , what i thought of the sessions ? mr. rouse made answer he did forsee it would be a very short sessions . says he , these frequent prorogations and dissolutions of the parliament wont avail him , for what ever the king has , the parliament gave him , and they may take it away , when they please . one bid him have a care what he said , and he replyed , the king had forfeited his crown , and had no more right to it than he had . l. c. j. mr. rouse , if you would ask him any questions pray direct your self to us and we will ask them . rouse . i desire he may be asked what was said before and after ? l. c. j. can you tell him ? do you know there was any previous or subsequent discourse to this , that m●ght a●y way alter it ? rouse . it was the same question pr●pounded in eighty one. mr. justice wi●hi●s . pray did he say the king had forfeited his crown ? mr. corbin . yes , and when he was r●buked for it , he reiterated it . sir g. jeff. we will trouble your lordship but with one peice of evidence more , only to give you an account mr. rouse is a man very well known in the city of london , yet when there were officers came to seize him he had forgot his name of rouse , and did not remember ●it . swear william richardson , ( which was done ) pray tell my lord and the jury , whether you were at the taking of this mr rouse , and what name he went by . mr. richardson . i was upon the fourth of july , instant , to search for one armiger , and coming to widow hays ●o●●ee-house ( i think they call it ) the widow told me there was no man in the house : i went down the street and came back again , and one said he saw a man go into the garden● says he do you stay here and i will go and see ; he saw this gen●leman , says he , what is your name ? he said johnson . i asked him and he said iohnson , i told him we must have an accompt of him . some said they did not know him . we weat to the half m●on taver● in alderseate-street , he sent for other men , they said they did know him , but they co●●● say nothing in his behalf . sir g. jeff. is that the man , johnson ? richardson . that is the man that said his name was johnson . l. c. j. look you now mr. rouse this is your time to speak for your self . what have you to say to this that is charged upon you ? you hear the first witness does say , that you would have , ingaged him in a design of raising of men , and you told him you designed to surprize the tower , and to that purpose he surveyed it with you , and you told him what your design was you met mr. goodenough about , it was to raise ● . en . goodenough was for killing the king , you it seems at first was but for securing the king , and making him do what you pleased ; but afterwards it was come to an higher matter , and then you had found out a way to ingage some captains to seize the tower , and others were to seize white-hall , both were to be done at once . what say you to this ? ( here are three witnesses that testify very strongly against you ) and the device you had to get men to black-heath to secure the tower. rouse . my lord , i stand here for my life ; it never entred into my heart , nor came out of my mouth , but he came to me several times about it , and i opposed it . at last he dogg'd me so often , that he gave me occasion to ask him the meaning of it . the first place i saw him in was the kings-head ( as he saith truly ) in swithins alley . there were several persons ( as they met there every day upon their private occasions ) that is true . he asked me a strange question , ( that was the first time i heard of it ) whether i was willing to oppose a foreign invasion that was like to be made speedily ? and whether i would ingage in the defence of it ? and this he did two or three times afterwards . to which i rep●yed , sir , i and every honest man are bound ( as we are subjects , and have taken the oaths of supremacy and allegiance ) to ingage in such a thing you put me upon , that was to ingage against a foreign invasion . the next time , he as●ed me how far i would assist if such a thing should fall out as a foreign invasion ? i wondered to hear it so often repeated ; i answered , i never had but one sword for several years , though i have had occasion for many in other countries , but i make no question but by the assistance of my friends , to raise an hundred arms , that was my very expression . but withal i demanded what he meant by invasion , and that i insisted upon several times ; for , says i , i know of none , and i hope there is none li●e to be . i took an accompt of this in characters , and have acquainted his majesty and the council with it . he replyed to me , says he , i wonder you are a stranger to such a thing , 't is true says he , that is the word goes up and down , but says he there is another kind of invasion meant by some men . i asked him what other invasion do you mean ? he answered presently , don't you know ? are you a stranger in england ? in israel ? says he there is an invasion upon our rights and liberties and all we have : whereupon i was a little startled . this was at the kings-head tavern . another time i desired him to explain his meaning , being a stranger to it , when i exp●essed my readiness to serve the king upon such an occasion in those words ; they that know me , know that i am not in the capacity of raising an hundred arms , but i intended it as god knows in opposition to a foreign invasion . but i thank god i took characters day by day , and with a resolution day by day to discover it , but he has got the start of me , for fear i would swear against him . he insisted still upon it that our rights and liberties were invaded , and that was the invasion all along intended , and that was the way to hook in persons only upon that pretence of a foreign invasion . i asked him in what manner he meant invasion ? says he , what with their doctrines on one hand , and oppression on the other , they lye so heavy that we can't bear it no longer . says i , what do you mean by this ? what course do you think of ? what can you propound to your self to extricate your self out of these troubles you so much complain of ? to which he answered , you are a stranger to what is a foot and hath been a foot a great while . do you not know the persons that are ingaged in the design ? ( i was a little inquisitive to know what was meant by the persons . ) no ( says i ) positively , i know not what you mean , i am a perfect stranger to these persons and this design , and i wished him and all others ( as they were men and christians ) that they would take care of opposing the government they lived under , that was my very words . says he , that we have considered very well , and how to secure the two things , and says he you shall see we will do it dexterously , without shedding a drop of blood , nay , says he , not the blood of the duke of york , though he be the veriest dog in england . i desired him to explain himself , he answered , the mischief of it is we can't agree among our selves , for it was vs and we at every word ; so i concluded he was of the cabal and clubb that met together on this design ( that hath come before your lordship ; ) and i am pretty confident there was such a h●llish design , though i thank god i had no hand in it . say i , who are the persons ? pray declare the bottom of this story you come to me about one day after another . with much ado , he told me mr. goodenough was one . after this discourse i never saw mr. goodenough but twice , once was at the king's-head tavern , where i believe was twenty ; the second time was a day or two after i saw the proclamation and his name in it . so much i speak of mr. goodenough . i asked him the names of the other persons that were ingaged in this design , and ( says he ) i must conceal them , for i am under an obligation ; but the first time i saw the proclamation against col. rumsey , and the others , says he , i was deadly afraid i was in the proclamation ; but ( says he ) all these persons are concerned and several others . thereupon he told me , that when they met they came to this resolution , of seizing the tower , the aldermen , and taking of london . says i , pray what money have you to carry on this ? money ! oh , says he , we don't want money ; says he , mr. goodenough hath assured me there is l. l. c. j. look you , you invert all his discourse : he hath sworn it against you . have you any evidence in the world ? you are not in a capacity to swear against him . rouse . my lord , he hath turned it upon me , he spake to me always in private . l. c. j. look you , you have fixed but upon one person , here was mate lee that gives a very threwd evidence against you ; did he come and teach you ? did he use these words ? rouse . my lord , i have nothing to say against mate lee , i hope he is an honest man. but i having a design to discover this whole thing , and having so much out of leigh the dyer — l. c. j. what did you use these words to him for then ? rouse . to satisfie the gentlemen that put me upon it , that i might come to the bottom of the design . mr. just. with : you say you know a great deal more : how came it to pass you never told the king one word of this 'till after you was taken ? rouse . i have told it since i was taken . mr. sol. gen. pray when you had got to the bottom of all this ( as you call it ) why did you deny your name ? rouse . i did not deny my name . sir g. j. he hath as many names as he has designs , and they are abundance . rouse . i did not know they were officers : i did not think there was any obligation upon me to tell every man my name . l. c. j. you hear what evidence is given against you concerning your discourse in eighty one , which though it be not the thing for which you are directly called in question , yet if you could clear your self of it , it would import you much , for that does show your spirit , and that you have had a long while a design against the king's life , if that be true ; therefore it would be very fitting that you purged your self of it , and that you could some way or other give an answer to what you said , that the king had forfeited his crown , and had no more right to it than one of those sorry persons you sp●●e to : and to say the parliament might take away the king's authority . these are strange treasonable expressions . rouse . my lord , though this thing be revived , which was out of doors two years since , and i suppose it is well known to your lordship , who was then upon the bench. as i was told , there was a word in the indictment called colloquium : he was asked what discourse passed before ? but if mr. corbin would remember himself , i do confess i did say these words ; but the words that followed , before . mr. just. with. what do you mean , the cart before the horse ? rouse . mr. wyat was urging of several discourses , the popish grandeur in deposing kings , and i gave this answer in these words : sir , ( says i ) if it were in the power of any pope to depose the king , then he might as well take away the crown off the king's head ; but he hath no such power ; if he had that power , says i , then the crown of england is yours as much as his . mr. sol. gen. what was the colloquium , when you said the parliament might take it away ? rouse . i never said that . l. c. j. i have heard a great deal of your discourse , if you think you can make any of it good by witnesses to your advantage , call them . rouse . my lord , i have not had time to collect my witnesses . how can it be supposed i should call witnesses : i don't know whether they are here . here are witnesses called to prove a matter , whereof upon a tryal two years past i was acquitted . mr. just. with. pray do not go away with that , here are two witnesses since . l. c. j. you were told , that was not the thing laid to your charge now , that does only shew the temper of your spirit , and how your inclinations hath been all along . look you , this you are now charged with is a design to seize and kill the king , and to that purpose to have entred into a conspiracy with goodenough and others , for the raising of men , and the making of a rebellion and insurrection here in the kingdome ; whereby you might have seized not only the king but his fort here the tower , and made your selves masters of hi● ships , and so en●red into a perfect war with him in his own k●ng●ome , to the destruction of himself and the government . you hear what the witnesses say against you . rouse . i do declare in the presence of god almighty , before whom i must stand , it never entred into my heart . mr. jones . if that would do , we should have none hanged . r●us● . i appeal to your lordship , and this honourable ●ourt , whether 't is likely for me , who am such a silly person to ingage in such a devillish design , especially being concerne with no person in the world about it ; for i declare , if i was upon ●en thousand o●ths , i never had any discourse with any person in the world a●out it . in the next place , i was n●ver in any meeting , though i have heard of several darkly that they met in london , and in several clubbs , but i could never find out the places . i desire to ask him , whether he knows with whom i did concern my self . l. c. j. look you , did you never meet him with any company concerning any of these treasonable designs that you have spoken of . mr. leigh . i will give your lordship and the jury an accompt . mr. rouse acquainted me he could make ten sea-captains , i acquainted mr. goodenough with it . he tol● me he w●ul● have a golden ball , and told me the charge . we went to the angel and crown t●●rn from thence he came to meet mr. goodenough to tell him what he had said to these captains . the next d●y he met mr. goodenough ; and mr. goodenough , mr. rouse , mr. pachin , and i , went from joseph's coffee house in exchange alley , and he discoursed about g●●● of these captains . rouse who was present ? mr. leigh we never discoursed the matter joyntly , but singly with one man. mr. rouse and mr. goodenough went into a room apart above staires , and discoursed this matter ( as i believe ) half an hour . rouse . how do you know what discourse i had with mr. goodenough when you was not present ? mr. leigh . mr. goodenough thanked me for bringing him acquainted with you . l. c. j. how do you know what discourse they had ? mr. leigh . i know only what mr. rouse told me , mr. rouse told me that he would ingage , ten sea-captains , that a ball should be played , and every man take his dividend . l. c. j. did he tell you he had discoursed this with mr. goodenough . rouse . did i tell you so ? mr. leigh . yes , sir. l. c. j. you speak of several in company , one pachin and others . mr. leigh . we went from the kings-head tavern , for there was company we did not like , though we discoursed there but of hay-making , and getting men to help the country people . l. c. j. what did you mean by that ? mr. leigh . that was to get men for this business . l. c. j. what did he say the intention was of raising these men ? mr. leigh . mr. rouse hath frequently and often acquainted me , that the king had taken an oath in france and spain to bring in popery and arbitrary power in so many years , and that he had not done it made the popish party angry , but that he would do it . l. c. j. well , what design was there in raising of men and seizing the tower. mr. leigh . he told me all things must be done together . the king and the duke must be seized , for that was the principal work . rouse . it never entred into my heart . be pleased to ask him if he was not arrested by one keeling , and what was the accompt of it . mr. leigh . no. rouse . i mean sword against . mr. leigh . i will give your lord hip an account of it . mr. goodenough , mr. rouse , mr. pachin , and i , had been at the kings-head tavern , a man came and told me ; a man had been at my house , and that one swore against me , and it would be dangerous to go home . a while after comes one armiger and he told me mr. bateman was gone one way and he another to seek for me , and desired me to have a care of my self . with that mr. rouse , mr. goodenough , and mr. pachin came out to me . mr. rouse directed me to go to the sun-tavern at moongate , and i went ; mr. rouse , mr. goodenough , and mr. pachin came to me . i told them i would meet my wife , but they would not let me go on by any means , but sent one mr. thomas a coffee man for my wife . she came and told me mr. goodenough had sworn against several people , or he was sworn against , i went to mr. rouses house where mr. goodenough came to me , mr. rouse would have had mr. goodenough staid there all night , mr. goodenough sent for his wife to know if his brother had sworn , she acquainted him he had not sworn , mr. rouse invited him to lie with me . he shewed me behind the bed a window to go out into another mans room to make my escape , if any man should come to search the house . i lay there on saturday , mr. goodenough and mr. nelthrop came to me , mr. goodenough told me he had laid at mr. nelthrops all night , but he had seen his brother and he had not sworn against me , i heard that mr. keeling had sworn against me , and did say in discourse if i did light of keeling i would kill him . rouse . i desire to ask him another question , when he was told he was sworn against , what did he say ? l. c. j. he tells you before hand that he said he would kill keeling if he could meet him . rouse . he says mr. goodenough and mr. nelthrop came to my house , ask him if i was in the house or saw mr goodenough . mr. lee. i am not positive whether he saw them together , but that he saw mr. goodenough there the friday night for he invited him to lie with me . l. c. j. pray what was your reason in putting mate lee upon the inquiring out men to make masters of ships . rouse . to satisfie the gentleman because he told me there was such a design in hand to get to the bottom of that design that so his majesty might come to no damage . pray my lord , how could i acquaint the king or any justice of peac● what he meant by it unless i understood it . l. c. j. have you any thing more to ask ? or would you have any witnesses called ? rouse . my lord , 't is my unhappiness i have no witnesses . sir geo. jeff. he hath confessed the treason enough . l. c. j. look you gentlemen of the jury . you hear that this person at the bar is indicted for high. treason in conspiring the kings death , and declaring this by over acts , that is endeavouring to raise men here for to seize the tower and to make an insurrection here , and a rebellion within the kingdom : you hear two positive witnesses of what they have heard from him ; he did endeavour says lee to bring him into it , and he told him the whole design , he did declare to him the manner how they intended to seize the king and the duke of york ; mr. goodenough was one of the persons that confederated with him , one of them , but several others they had . they had covert terms to disguise this , by getting the country people in their harvest . he told them of a design he had to get the seamen a thousand of them together to seize the tower and white-hall both at a time . and you hear that mate lee had the same discourse in substance with him of endeavouring to seize the tower and get arms , for to seize the kings ships , to raise a thousand persons for the effecting of this ; all these things you have heard proved against him , he gives no answer to any of them , but only tells you that in truth he did not say these things to them . but they , that is the first lee said these things to him . he hath no evidence at all of it . you hear likewise ( which does agree with this case ) the testimony by the other person concerning his discourse in . how he said the king had forfeited his crown and had no right to it , but the parliament gave him his authority and might take it away . all these discourses they savour of a very wicked spirit as can be in the whole world. i must leave it to you whether you believe him guilty . the jury presently gave their verdict that he was guilty . william blague having been arraigned on thursday , july th pleaded not guilty and put himself upon his countrey , was brought to the bar again friday , july th . he made no challenges , and the former jury was sworn . the jury . robert beddingfield . john pelling . william winbury . theophilus man. john short , the elder . thomas nicholas . richard hoare . thomas barnes . henry robins . henry kemp. edward radish . edward kemp. clerk. gentlemen of the jury , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his charge . he stands indicted by the name of william blague , late of london , gent. that he together with john rouse , &c. mr. north. gentlemen , you that are sworn ; the prisoner at the bar , is charged with compassing the death of the king , and conspiring to raise war and rebellion , to destroy the government and take possession of it , that he did conspire with one rouse , and several others not yet known to bring these things to pass , and being join'd together to seize the tower , and to provide several arms : to this he hath pleaded not guilty , &c. mr. s. jeffreys . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , we shall not need to trouble you much with the prisoner at the bar , for this prisoner with him that went before were to undertake that part of this horrid conspiracy relating to the seizing the tower , because the same witnesses that were against the former , are against the prisoner at the bar. we shall not need to trouble you with the history , we will call our witnesses to prove it . — do you hear , lee , you must tell my lord and the jury what the prisoner at the bar was concerned in . l. c. j. what do you know of any treasonable practices of his ? mr. lee , i will acquaint your lordship and the gentlemen of the jury , that capt. blague , and mr. rouse were frequently at the tavern . i presume many times they came in about business , and sometimes there was discourses to carry on this conspiracy . mr. rouse told me he had acquainted capt. blague with it , about getting ten sea captains ; capt. blague told him they had better engage one or two ships to shoot morter-pieces into the tower , which would presently destroy it , and discoursing with capt. blague about the affair , he told me he would be ready , in a fortnight or three weeks . capt. blague . my lord , will you please to ask what time that was . l. c. j. you shall have any question asked by and by . capt. blague . very well . mr. lee. capt. blague told me he would be ready in a fortnight or something more , and he had an intention to lay in about fourteen guns in his own ship that he had bought , he would have twenty four in it , and lay it on southwarke side against the tower. he would venture his ship , but they must see they were provided with money for the seamen . i acquainted mr. goodenough with this , and mr. goodenough desired to speak with capt. blague , i told capt. blague of it , and we took coach at the stocks-market , and went to the kings-head in chancery-lane , where we met with mr. richard goodenough , and mr. francis goodenough , capt. blague asked what money they had provided , they said about l. says capt. blague , the seamen will swallow that up immediately . l. c. j. what did capt. blague say ? mr. lee. mr. goodenough and capt. blague discourst about the matter at the kings-head tavern at chancery-lane end , and the discourse about the matter was , how to seize the tower , he then told them again , the only way was to do it with morter-pieces , that he would venture his own ship and provide two hundred men . l. c. j. what did he say about money ? mr. lee. he asked what money was provided , he said there was about l. then , he said that would be easily swallowed , mr. goodenough said that there would be more provided at any time . cap. blague and mr. goodenough , both of them , drank a glass or two of wine together , and so at that time we parted . i met with capt. blague again , and bid me for god's sake , don't discourse before my mate such a one , but my mate lee is a very honest fellow : said he , i will undertake once in twenty times to dismount them six guns that face towards surrey side , which i understood to be about traytor's-bridge , he would undertake to dismount them . what discourse capt. blague , and mr. goodenough had a part i can't tell , but mr. goodenough told me , he would get some other captains to engage in that affair . that business was left to him and i , and i was desired to be frequently with capt. blague for the managing this affair of the tower , and saies he , i have had a commission , though not in england , by land as well as by sea. l. c. j. will you ask him any thing , sir ? now he shall be asked any thing that you will propose . first , you do propose to him about what time this meeting was . what say you to that ? mr. lee. if it please your lordship , i believe it was toward the latter end of may or the beginning of june . capt. blague . if you please , my lord , i will give you a journal or narrative of all my proceedings . l. c. j. will you ask him any more than that ? cap. blague . no , my lord. mr. s. jeff. we will call mate lee. this mate lee was the man that might not be trusted . — mate lee , tell my lord and the gentlemen of the jury , what discourse you have had with the prisoner at the bar , capt. blague , about seizing the tower. mate lee. i shall sir. the first discourse that ever i understood , was one time he and i was riding in a coach , saies capt. blague , one of these daies we shall have a ball to toss . i did not know the meaning of this ball , till afterwards mr. rouse and mr. lee and i came together , and he told me of tossing a ball upon black-heath . then i began to understand it . and after this , i can't tell whether it was before that , capt. blague , and i walking about the tower , and discoursing of this , my way was to scale the tower , and take it that way , saies capt. blague , the best way is to shoot morter-pieces on southwarke side ; this was all the discourse . mr. s. jeff. can you say any thing about the ship ? mate lee. nothing about the ship , but about morter-pieces on southwarke side . mr. s. jeff. what time was that ? mate lee. i cannot be possitive , about six weeks ago or less . mr. s. jeff. the first time was in the coach ? mate lee. that was about the ball , i did not understand it , only tossing up a ball , i did not understand the meaning of it , till afterwards mr. rouse and mr. lee and i came together . l. c. j. how came you to discourse with him concerning the best way of taking the tower ? mate lee. mr. rouse , and mr. lee and i , and capt. blague had been together . we discourst about taking the tower. and we had this discourse among our selves , which was the best way to take the tower , my approbation was scaling ladders , and hand granadoes , that was the best way . cap. blague's way was with morter-pieces on southwarke side . l. c. j. to what intent was this discourse , had you had any former discourse with any persons ? mate lee. not at all , if it please your lordship . the first discourse i had was with mr. rouse and mr. lee. l. c. j. and was that about taking the tower ? mate lee. to surprize the tower , and mr. lee and mr. rouse and i went down to view the tower. l. c. j. then afterwards capt. blague came in about the way to take it ? mate lee. this discourse with capt. blague about the tower was between him and i. i don't remember it in any other company . l. c. j. what was your business with capt. blague . mate lee. my business was with capt. blague to be his mate , and i was conversant with him at the exchange , the coffee-house and the kings-head tavern . and we had discourse about these things . l. c. j. come capt. blague , would you have him asked any question ? capt. blague . my lord , otherwise i had gone to sea soon after i came home , but so it was , that i had an occasion for pensilvania , and new-york , and coming one day to the exchange , i met mr. rouse , whom i had not seen in or years before , for mr. rouse made a voyage to virginia with me about years ago . now , my lord , meeting with mr. rouse , i had an occasion then to take up two ' or three hundred pounds , and knowing mr. rouse was a broker , i did imploy him to procure it me , but he did not ; however daily i came to him to dispatch that affair , and mr. rouse being a man for a tavern , i went to the kings-head tavern , and the sun tavern , if he was not at one place i found him at another , in order to perfect this business . so , my lord , when i came into his company , several people use to be with him that i never saw in my life , and mr. rouse would say sit down a little and i will go with you presently , so i would sit down and drink a glass of wine , and go to the places where the affair was to be managed , after i had done thus several days and to no purpose , i did it my self . now , my lord , mr. rouse in that time brought me acquainted with goodenough , because goodenough was in his company and mr. lee , not that i ever saw mr. goodenough in my life before , and not as mr. lee says that i ever was with him at the dragon . mr. lee. the kings-head tavern in chancery-lane . capt. blague . i was just coming home when mr. lee was going to meet with mr. goodenough , and i went in there and took a glass of wine and bid them farwel , and so went home . when i was with mr. rouse , i was asking what people they were that were in his company , he said very honest men , drank a glass of wine and went away , and still i found them together . i was saying to this mr. lee here , if you will go along with me , you shall give me as much for your passage as any of the rest of the passengers do . now at this time my ship was not in my possession , this very day three weeks i had it in my possession , and now at this very day she is in the carpenters hands , who is here now i suppose . l. c. j. well go on . capt. blague . now sir , whereas mr. lee reports that i discourst with mr. goodenough concerning any publick affairs , or any thing tending to the disturbance of the peace , then am i not a christian. besides sir , i did not speak twenty words , or ten words at the time but your servant sir , or here 's to you in a glass of wine ; and this i do speak in the presence of god almighty . and when i came into a room , i never staid longer than mr. rouse for my business was with him , and so went about my own affairs . as for mr. goodenough , i believe i was three times in his company before i could remember his name , i would ask rouse several times what do you call that man. but in reference to the tower that mr. lee speaks of , that must be touched at ; i do remember very well , i shall by no m●ans palliate it if i were presently to die , coming up from the ship we were coming by water , indeed i should have had possession of the ship a fortnight before , if they had done me justice , i had two or three hundred pounds for them before , but coming from the ship , we were coming up by water by the tower , i don't know how it was , i spake it to the waterman , this place is not well fortified , and if any occasion should happen this place lies in more peril and jeopardy than any place of the tower , and so it does . it is an ease matter for any to give their sentiments whether they be accepted of or no. this is the very thing i said , and then they were talking of a french war and the like . then i said you silly fools , if they should take it , it is but going over a t'other side and throwing half a dozen bombo's to them and set them out again . but however , mate lee , if he remember i told him the same thing at that same time , and i told mr. lee it was pitty a thousand times , that place was not better fortified . but as to what mr. lee says , to have two hundred men in a poor pink , i have refused several in that very ship , because i could not stow an hundred men , women , and children , and that i should press two hundred men in that ship , that will not hold . and besides it is a pink , let any one look upon her and see , whether that ship be fit or no to take in two hundred men. but whereas they say i had arms and such things , i bought the ship and arms together , i had blunderbusses , javelins and half-pikes , that is all . l. c. j. you forget to answer several things , you had discourse about a bank of money . capt. blague . a bank of money , my lord , i never discourst of . and as to the ball that my mate speaks of , my lord , i know no more what it means to this very day than one that never saw a ball. l. c. j. look you , sir , you were with mr. lee , this mr. lee hath sworn , he says you told him that you would undertake to get two hundred men , and you had bought fourteen pieces of ordnance already , and that you would within a fortnight's time , do you remember , bring your ship to southwark , and be ready to beat down that part of the tower. capt. blague . my lord , i have told you already the ship was not mine to bring till this day three weeks . l. c. j. that was within compass , for they tell you this discourse was about a month ago . capt. blague . it was in may , my lord , they talk of . l. c. j. no , they speak of about a month ago , you were to have them in a fortnights time . — what saies the first lee , what time does he speak of ? mr. lee. if it please your lordship , he said his ship would be ready , in a fortnights time or thereabouts . l. c. j. how long was that ago ? mr. lee. about a month or five weeks . l. c. j. to what purpose did you meet mr. goodenough so often to discourse about this matter of the tower ? capt. blague . my lord , i never met with him at all but when i came to mr. rouse about this business of the two hundred pound . l. c. j. mr. lee , what say you concerning his inquiry for money ? mr. lee. if it please your lordship , mr. goodenough and the captain met at the kings-head tavern , they met several times apart out of company , and discourst of the business apart ; mr. goodenough asked me for the captain many times , i told him what the captain said to me . mr. goodenough took the captain out , and discourst him about this affair . mr. goodenough hath told me several times the captain would be very serviceable . the captain asked what money there was ; i told him about l. and he said that would be quickly gone . i inquired of mr. goodenough again , and mr. goodenough told me there was more money in holland . l. c. j. what money was he to have ? mr. lee. two hundred men . — the captain says i named him before the king and council , to be at a meeting at the green-dragon tavern . it is true i did acquaint the king and council , that mr. rouse had business at the green-dragon tavern . but this was at the time of my absconding , i could not tell where to meet him again . l. c. j. what guns did he say he had provided . mr. lee. if it please your lordship he said he had fourteen guns in the ship , and would make them up twenty four : he would undertake in twenty shot to dismount them guns . l. c. j. where was this discourse you had with him about this two hundred pound . mr. lee. if it please your lordship , it was at several times , one was with mr. goodenough at the kings-head at the corner of chancery-lane . l. c. j. look you sir , by the oath you have taken did he undertake to raise men , and to assist with his ship in taking the tower ? mr. lee. if it please your lordship , he told me he would so do it . he told me he would have twenty four guns . jury . did the captain tell you so ? mr. lee. captain blague that is here . capt. blague . my lord , in reference to the two hundred men , this is the thing that i would answer , i could not stow a hundred men , women and children . l. c. j. two hundred men he saies for this service . capt. blague . yes , my lord , i mean so . who can you have to say so besides your self ? mr. lee. if it please your lordship , this discourse was only with mr. rouse , mr. goodenough , capt. blague and i. capt. blague . my lord , mr. lee said before the king and council , that he was never along with me but once , and of what i said then he could tell only he was there when i went to look mr. rouse . how can these two expressions go together ? mr. lee , my lord , as to that before the king and council , i did say i was not apart with captain blague , and mr. goodenough at the kings-head tavern , but captain blague and mr. goodenough were there several times , and they were apart by themselves , and that i had discourse with captain blague and mr. goodenough and came with them once to the kings-head tavern . l. c. j. what did captain blague tell you of what discourse he had with mr. goodenough ? mr. lee. captain blague did tell me that we must have a great care , or else we should be all ruined , and that his ship should be ready , and alwaies encouraged me . and says he , when i have done the business , i have been a captain ashore in another country , i have been in commission in another country ashore , and can tell how to mannage men ashore as well as aboard . another thing was , after all this some time , when i understood i was sworn against , i was indeed , the captain says right , to have gone with him a passenger , and was with him several times , i gave him a report how the tower might be taken by ladders and granadoes , and he told me that nelthrop's brother came to see him , and did inform me that neither mr. goodenough nor his brother was taken , and that the duke of monmouth was in the country and quickly would come . l. c. j. who told you this ? mr. lee. capt. blague . mr. s. jefferies . this is a pretty matter to smirk at , captain . capt. blague . i will assure you sir , there is not truth in it . mr. s. jefferies . would you smile the witnesses out of their oaths . l. c. j. look you , mate lee , what say you to 〈◊〉 in your judgment and your thoughts was the discourse concerning taking the tower in a jesting way ? mate lee. no , an 't shall please your lordship , i was in earn●st in discoursing of it , my way was , as i told your lordship before , scaling ladders and hand gra●●● l. c. j. had you any talk before of surprizing the tower ? mate lee. no , my lord , by no body but mr. rouse and lee. l. c. j. what had they spoken to you concerning surprizing the tower. mate lee. mr. rouse spoke to me of getting some seamen , that might be fit to make masters of ships , and i asked him what he would do with those seamen to make commanders of ships , he said , to put them aboard the kings men of war , and make guard ships of them ; i said , what can you do with them to make guard ships , when there is neither powder , shot , nor ammunition , but said i , if you can take the tower you may do well enough : so that our discourse was about taking the tower. l. c. j. was capt. blague with you then ? mate lee. what discourse we had about taking the tower was between our selves . l. c. j. how came you to discourse concerning this ? mate lee. this was our common discourse , i suppose the instigation might be by mr. rouse . i was acquainted with mr. rouse by going with capt. blague ; this was my first discourse with mr. rouse and mr. lee together . l. c. j. who was with you when you discourst it first ? mate lee. there was only mr. rouse and mr. lee , i can be positive that capt. blague was not , but this capt. blague did say when i gave my way of taking the tower by scaling ladders , and hand granadoes , no , says capt. blague it is a better way to have mortar-pieces over the water , and shoot into the tower. mr. s. jefferies . hark you friend , did lee or rouse tell you that blague was made privy to it ? mate lee. i understood nothing of it but what we discourst together , for i was acquainted with none of the cabal but mr. rouse and mr. lee. l. c. j. what did you discourse about ? mate lee. about taking the tower. i won't mince it , i am upon my oath . l. c. j. therefore we would have the truth out of you . mate lee. i did gather from mr. rouse and mr. lee that the intention was to take the tower. l. c. j. give some account how you and blague came to discourse of such a thing as this is , and in order to what design . mate lee. the design was to take the tower. l. c. j. did blague and you discourse it to this purpose ? mate lee. capt. blague and i discourst it to that purpose of taking the tower. mr sol. gen. did you discourse of it as a thing that might be done , or that was intended to be done ? mate lee. we did discourse of it as a thing that might be done , or was intended to be done . l. c. j. now capt. blague , if you have any thing to ask him you may . capt. blague . ask him whether there were any projections or provisions made for the taking it , and whether or no there was any resolution taken , that the tower should be taken . mate lee. an 't shall please your lordship , the king's majesty asked me when i said what capt. blague said about taking the tower with mortar-pieces , if it please your majesty ? said i , i don't know whether there was any such thing discourst , that i did not hear . l. c. j. well , was there any thing provided or designed in order to it ? mate lee. an 't please your lordship , there was nothing of men or guns provided , that i did know or hear of . mr. s. jefferies . how many times did you talk with capt. blague about this ? mate lee , several times . l. c. j. had you any order from any other persons for to discourse capt. blague in order to this ? mate lee. no , an 't shall please your lordship , to the best of my knowledge i had no order , for they were commonly together , capt. blague , mr. rouse , and mr. lee , and i came to them when i had business with capt. blague . l. c. j. did you ever discourse this thing with capt. blague before them ? mate lee. i cannot be positive in that . mr. sol. gen. did those other persons that you said you discourst with engage you ? mate lee. mr. rouse and mr. lee and i went out , to view the tower how it might be taken . mr. sol. gen. did they engage you ? mate lee. yes , they did engage me . jury . my lord , we desire to have the witness asked whether the captain knew he went to view the tower. l. c. j. had he any intimation you went to view the tower ? mate lee. my lord , i cant be positive in that : some time after we met the captain , and did tell the captain we had view'd the tower ; but i don't remember what observations we made . mr. s. jefferies . nor what he said to you ? mate lee. no , nor what he said to me upon it . l. c. j. look you mr. lee , mate lee , the captain told you of this ball that was to be thrown upon blackheath , how long ago was it ? mate lee. an 't please your lordship , i cannot be positive , it was five or six weeks ago , i think it was the last time i rid along with him to to the kingshead tavern . i went to chancery-lane , and you gave me coach-hire for nothing , and then you spoke of tossing up the ball. l. c. j. what was it he said ? mate lee. this was all , i did not know his meaning , neither did he express his meaning , he was saying to the best of my remembrance , we shall see a ball tost up , i don't remember he said upon blackheath ; the confirmation of it was by mr. rouse and mr. lee , then i came to understand what the ball did mean. sir james butler . with his lordships leave , did you speak first to the captain about the tower , or did he speak to you , was it your motion to him , or his to you ? mate lee. i don't know but it might be my motion to him . sir james butler . then my lord give me leave to ask another . how were these mortar-pieces to be brought up , to be planted on southwark side to play upon the wall of the tower. mr. s. jefferies . that was t'other man , sir james . l. c. j. is there any thing more that you would have asked of any of these witnesses , or have you any witnesses of your own ? capt. blague . my lord , the witnesses that i have in reference to the number of men are here . i desire , my lord , you will be pleased to order them to come in , to know upon what account i shipped them . jury . my lord , pray let us ask t'other lee one question . l. c. j. the first lee. jury . we desire to know whether he heard anything of the ball or tossing it ? l. c. j. he hath told you a long story of it . mr. lee. the story of blackheath i acquainted you with it about mr. rouse . there was a golden ball to be plaid upon black-heath , a thousand seamen to be at the playing of this ball , ten sea captains to manage these thousand seamen , and after the play was over , every captain to take his division apart , and treat them with punch , and after that was done , to tell them they had other work to do , and to have long-boats and arms ready , to go and seize the tower. jury . did capt. blague acquaint you with this ? mr. lee. mr. rouse told me captain blague was acquainted with it , i never discourst with captain blague about it . captain blague told me the best way was to set a ship a to'ther side , and shoot mortar-pieces into the tower. l. c. j. what would you have mr. wright asked ? capt. blague . my lord , please to ask him upon what account he was shipped . l. c. j. was you shipped upon the captain 's ship , and upon what account ? mr. wright . an 't shall please your honour , i was shipped upon him almost four months and three weeks ago . l. c. j. upon what account ? mr. wright . i was shipped upon him upon the account of new york , england and holland . l. c. j. well what use do you make of this evidence . capt. blague . only , my lord , if you please to ask the rest , whether i have shipped any more men , or spoke with any more than these are . mr. wright . an 't like your honour , i have waited upon the captain ever since i have been shipped , i have waited upon him in london at the coffee-house about business : since i have belonged to him i was in pay although we had not a ship in possession : sometimes at the mayors court office , mr. briggs , sometimes with mr. rouse , who had something to do for ●●prain blague . i kept at the coffee-house commonly every day from eight or nine a clock in the morning , sufficient persons know me in london . i have kept at the coffee-house from nine or ten a clock in the morning till four or five in the afternoon , and so i have satisfied him about what people have inquired after him . capt. blague . call robert chappel . l. c. j. capt. blague what would you have him asked ? capt. blague . carpenter , declare to my lord how long you have been with me and upon what account i shipped you ? chappel . four months and an half . l. c. j. what besides ? chappel . we were to go to new york . i have been shipped four months and an half to go to new york : we came to the coffee-house in birchin-lane . l. c. j. well . chappel . we have had the ship a month in our hands next munday . l. c. j. is she fitted ? chappel . no , she is not fitted . l. c. j. was she in a condition to have done any serivce upon the water ? capt. blague . carpenter , do you hear what my lord saies . chappel . the ship is a small vessel about a hundred and fifty tun , between that and an hundred . capt. blague . my lord , ask you if she be in a condition to do service . l. c. j. was she capable to do any service upon the water ? chappel . no service at all upon the water she could do three weeks ago . mr. s. jeff. a ship of one hundred and fifty , or two hundred tun , would hold a great many people , she was to lie still , that was the mischief . chappel . we haled her down to the carpenter's yard , she is now in a condition to work . l. c. j. have you any more men ? capt. blague . dr. upon what account were you shipped ? bellinger . for new - york , england , and holland . capt. blage. when were you shipped ? bellinger . seven weeks ago . l. c. j. when were you to begin your voyage ? bellinger . i belonged to the captain before he had a ship. l. c. j. but when did you reckon to begin your voyage ? bellinger . that i cannot tell . capt. blage. my bill upon the exchange doth specifie it , sir. jury . pray my lord , will you ask if he have any . guns aboard , and how many ? l. c. j. what say you ? what guns are there about the ship. bellinger . , sr. and wooden ones . l. c. j. what are they ? bellinger . above deck , in the hold. — capt. blage. they are saker guns . l. c. j. saker ? capt. blage. yes sr. — richard clarke , what voyage had we ? clarke . new york . l. c. j. surely it doth appear that these men were shipped a great while ago . capt. blage. some of them have had a dependance upon me a great while , one hath depended upon me i believe seven months . l. c. j. have you any thing more to say ? capt. blage. no , my lord. l. c. j. look you , gentlemen , you that are of this jury , this gentleman is indicted for conspiring the death of the king , and doing some acts in order to it , that is , endeavouring to surprize the tower , and raising of men , and preparing of shipping and guns , and this on purpose to surprize the tower. that there was an evil design , a very wicked notorious design of siezing the kings person , and killing the king , that is most certain , you have heard it by a great many witnesses , and it is a thing i think not to be doubted of by any . the question is , whether this man be guilty of it , and hath undertaken any thing in relation to it . look you , you ought to have in such cases of high treason , as you have been told , you ought to have two witnesses against a person . here is two witnesses produced , one of them does speak very shrewdly to the case , and tells you he had it from this person himself , that he had spoken with goodenough about this matter , about surprizing the tower , and that he told him it was an easie thing to surprize the tower , and that he could do it , that he had a ship ready , and he would undertake that men should be ready , with morter-pieces from southwark-side to throw them and beat down the tower , so that it might have presently been down . first , mr. lee doth say , that the captain there at the bar , that he was oftentimes with mr. goodenough , and mr. rouse , and others , who it is plain were in that design , both rouse and goodenough was , and that he heard goodenough say that the captain had undertaken it , and he says that the captain had discourse with goodenough about it . he says , the captain asked him in order to this , what money could be raised , and he told him there was . . and the captain told him that was but a small matter , the seamen would eat up that ; and goodenough told him there was a greater bank in holland , that would be brought over . so that this evidence goes a great way . but then , gentlemen , you must consider whether you have another evidence or not . there is a person that you call mate , the mate doth give a dark kind of an evidence , he does say here that he and the captain had discourse about the way of taking the tower , and he believes it was in order to take the tower , but he does say when he heard it no body was present but himself , and he was of one opinion how the tower might be taken , that is , by scaling ladders and hand granadoes , and that the captain was of another opinion , whether it might not be better taken by morter-pieces thrown from southwark-side , but whether the captain had any notice of this design of taking it , he cannot tell , or whether he had any acquaintance concerning it . so that his evidence does seem to be somewhat dark . whether this were sportive , or a trial of their skill , or whether it was a design to have counsel and advice one of another , which way to take it , i must leave it to you , whether it was done with an intent and design , for to find out the best way in order to the taking of it . but if it were only a discourse at large between them , an endeavour to try their judgments one with another , and speaking their minds one with another in that case , then this evidence doth not come home to make him guilty of the plot of taking the tower or taking away the kings life . he tells you he did speak of a ball to be thrown up , but whether he ever heard of the other design that lee speaks of the first lee , thomas lee , of throwing up a ball by seamen in order to the taking of the tower , he knows not . lee says , the first witness , he does not know any thing whether this man at the barr was ever acquainted with the ball or not . if upon what you have heard you believe that there are two witnesses to prove this gentleman at the barr guilty of this design , of surprizing the tower , and killing the king , and taking the tower in order to it in this manner ; then you ought to find him guilty : but if you have not two witnesses that do testifie the thing , then gentlemen , under two witnesses a man cannot be guilty . after which the jury withdrawing to consider of their verdict , in a short time returned , and brought him not guilty . saturday th . july , my lord russel was brought to the barr. cl. of cr. vv illiam russel esq hold up thy hand ( which he did ) thou hast been indicted for high treason against our soveraign lord the king , and thereupon hast pleaded not guilty , and for they tryal hast put thy self upon the country , which country has found thee guilty . what canst thou say for thy self why judgment of death should not pass upon thee according to the law ? l. russel . mr. recorder , i should be very glad to hear the indictment read . mr. att. gen. you may read it . cl. of cr. will you have it read in latin or in english ? l. russell . in english. the clerk read to the words of conspiring the death of the king. l. russell . hold , i thought i had not been charged in the indictment as it is , of compassing and conspiring the death of the king. mr. att. gen. yes , my lord. l. russel . but , mr. recorder , if all that the witnesses swore against me be true , i appeal to you and the court , i appeal to you whether i am guilty within the statute of e. . they having sworn a conspiracy to levy war ; but no intention of killing the king : and therefore i think truely judgment ought not to pass upon me for conspiring the death of the king , of which there was no proof by any one witness . mr. att. gen. that is no exception . mr. recorder . my lord , that was an exception proper ( and as i think you did make it ) before the verdict ; whether the evidence does amount to prove the charge , that is proper to be observed to the jury ; for if the evidence come short of the indictment , they can't find it to be a true charge : but when the jury has found it , their verdict does pass for truth . we are bound by the verdict as well as your lordship , we are to go by what the jury have found , not their evidence . l. russel . without any proof ? mr. recorder . the jury must be governed by their evidence . l. russel . i think it very hard i must be condemned upon a point that there was not one thing of it sworn , therefore i think i may very legally demand arrest of judgment . mr. recorder . i hope your lordship will consider 't is not the court can give a verdict , it must be the jury . i believe there is no body in the court does delight in giving such judgments , especially against your lordship . the verdict is found , and the kings attorney general on behalf of the king does demand it . mr. att. gen. i do demand judgment of the court against the prisoner . proclamation made for silence whilst judgment was giving . mr. recorder . my lord russel , your lordship hath been indicted , and tryed , and found guilty of high-treason , the greatest of crimes , your quality is great and your crime is great . and i hope and expect that your behaviour and preparation in this condition will be proportionable . my lord , it is the duty of the witnesses to give evidence according to truth , it is the duty of the jury to proceed according to evidence , and 't is the duty of the court to give judgment according to the verdict . it is the kings pleasure signified by his attorney general , to demand judgment against your lordship according to this verdict , and therefore my lord i shall not delay it with any further circumlocution . the judgment the law hath provided , and is the duty of the court to give , is , that you be carried back again , to the place from whence you came , and from thence , be drawn upon an hurdle to the place of execution ; where you shall be hanged up by the neck , but cut down alive , your entrails and privy-members cut from your body , and burnt in your sight , your head to be severed from your body , and your body divided into four parts , and disposed at the kings pleasure . and the lord have mercy upon your soul. mr. att. gen. set up the other now . cl. of cr. set captain walcot to the barr , rouse , and hone. which was done and they bid severally to hold up their hands , which they did ; and captain walcot being asked what he could say why judgment of death should not pass upon him , said , cap. walcot . i have nothing to say , only i have one favour to begg of the court , whether it be proper to begg it now or no i can't tell . mr. recorder . what is it ? capt. walcott . i would beg the favour that the youth my son might come and see me , and some of my friends . mr. recorder . capt. richardson does not deny it to any man after he is condemned , that is a piece of humanity you need not ask , i never knew it denyed . then hone was asked what he could say against judgment . hone. i beg the same favour . mr. recorder . ay , ay , god forbid . you had best ask for some divine to come to you . then rouse was asked the same question . rouse . i would speak of the disadvantages i had when i came upon my tryal . when i was put upon my tryal you know very well , i begged the favour of some things ; one was a copy of the indictment , when i saw a person come before me , who in his own conscience knew was the author of all these things , i have nothing to say against the judgment or verdict , i always had a great veneration for the constitutions of the kingdom , i pray god forgive them that came against me . i wish i had no more weight upon my legs then i have in my own conscience . i prayed a copy of my indictment . these things unexpectedly came upon my tryal , that i had not opportunity to speak what i should . mr. recorder . we are content to hear you . but observe , you are to answer the question that is asked . why judgment should not pass upon you . you say you won't speak against the jury , we must not hear you , nor against the verdict . rouse . i have one word more , and that is , the vast difference between the indictment and their oaths ; the indictment was , that such and such words , and discourses , passed the second of march ; the oaths sworn were , that the words were not spoken then , but the last of june , which was three months difference , but however the jury have pleased to find it . i must throw my self at his majesties feet , i have nothing more to say . then silence was proclaim'd and judgement given against walcott , hone , and rouse , in like manner as upon the l. russel . finis . the tryal of slingsby bethel, esq., upon an indictment preferred by robert mason against him of which he was found guilty at the general quarter sessions of the peace for the town and burrough of southwark at the bridge-house, holden and kept before the right honourable sir patience ward, lord mayor of the city of london, sir thomas allen, sir william hooker, sir thomas bloudworth, sir james edwards, and justice pyrs, on wednesday, october , . bethel, slingsby, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of slingsby bethel, esq., upon an indictment preferred by robert mason against him of which he was found guilty at the general quarter sessions of the peace for the town and burrough of southwark at the bridge-house, holden and kept before the right honourable sir patience ward, lord mayor of the city of london, sir thomas allen, sir william hooker, sir thomas bloudworth, sir james edwards, and justice pyrs, on wednesday, october , . bethel, slingsby, - . [ ], p. printed for r. harbottle, london : . reproduction of original in the huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bethel, slingsby, - . trials (political crimes and offenses) -- england. great britain -- history -- charles ii, - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - jason colman sampled and proofread - jason colman text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of slingsby bethel esq upon an indictment preferred by robert mason against him , of which , he was found guilty . at the general quarter sessions of the peace , for the town and burrough of southwark , at the bridge-house . holden and kept before the right honourable sir patience ward , lord mayor of the city of london , sir thomas allen , sir william hooker , sir thomas bloudworth , sir james edwards , and justice pyrs , on wednesday , october . . london : printed for r. harbottle . . the preface . reader , that you may have a full sence and vnderstanding of the following indictment , and what what ensued thereupon , it is necessary to acquaint you with all the circumstances of the last pole , upon the election of members to serve in parliament for the town and bourough of southwark , from whence the pretence for this indictment was taken . the pole began on thursday the tenth of february . and continued until tuesday following , full five days . the candidates were sir richard how , and mr. peter rich , on one part ; slingsby bethel , and edward smith , esq on the other part . the place of pole was the old artillery-house in southwark , which is ascended out of the artillery ground , by six or eight large stone steps , with two half spaces , the uppermost at the entrance into the house , being banistered about , is so capacious , as will hold a hundred persons or more . the method of poling was by filling the house , from the doors that open upon the half space , then shutting them , until they within were all poled , and let out at a back door , and so filling the house again . vpon the first half space , was planted one sam sams , a known hectoring carr-man , and two water men of the largest size , fetched from lambeth , or there abouts . these men obstructed coming up to the pole-house , all such as they knew , or suspected were friends to bethel and smith , to the hurting some ; discouraging others , and causing many to go away . this rudeness was several times complained of to mr. bethel , who kept in the pole-house , but being pressed to endeavour to reform this disorder , at last , and on the fourth day of the pole , he went along with those that fetched him , but found then upon the forementioned steps , no more in that hectoring posture as was represented to him , than sam sams , and robert mason . mr. bethel aapplying himself first to mason , asked him in a milde and civil manner if he had a right to pole ? and upon his denyal that he had , desired him to withdraw , and not disturb the peace , and so took him by the arm ( he having a wide camlet coat over his red coat ) and led him gently down , who followed without resistance ( or any such dialogue , as is falsly suggested to have passed betwixt them , ) and went quietly away . after this mr. bethel asked sam sams the same question as he had done his companion mason , who answering that he had a right to pole , took him by the hand , and led him in at the back door to pole , at which how and rich seemed displeased , though rich did cunningly speak to him , to pole for bethel and smith , intending ( as may well be supposed ) that he should thereby defend himself , against bethel and smiths complaint , of his rude and disorderly cariage ; but the dull fellow , not apprehending the meaning of it , poled for 〈◊〉 , how and rich. and now this being all the ground there was for an indictment , one that pulls another by the sleeve to speak with him , may as well be indicted for so doing , as mr. bethel was for what he did . having this occasion to take notice of the manner and way of poling in southwark , i cannot but upon the whole observe , that the inhabitants thereof lye ( at the times of poling ) under great oppression , in the expence of five or six days , when fewer hours might serve the turn , could the bayliff be prevailed with , to follow the example of london , ( where double the number of true electors in southwark , are poled in four hours ) by having several writers and pole-books , especially the artillery house being so convenient for the purpose , as nothing can be more , and the benefit in putting this in practice , is backed with these cogent reasons . first , because the industrious sort of inhabitants will hereby save the attendance of four or five days . secondly , because the doors of the pole-house standing open , and the people understanding , that every one in three or four hours will be dispatched , it will prevent quarrelling and rudeness in coming to the pole , and discourage factious persons , from sending for hectoring fellows , to espouse a particular party , in opposition to all others , as was done the last pole. thirdly , the candidates will hereby be prevented , in raking the prisons , hospitals , almes-houses , and streets , for beggers , and the adjacent neighbourhood for necessitous persons , to the swelling the number of electors to above double of what they really are , as was done the two last poles ; the first having poled near fourthousand , and the latter above three thousand ; whereas there are not in all above eighteen or nineteen hundred in the bourough , that have a right to pole , whereof we found the last pole , by examination of the church-books , no more to appear than thirteen hundred , that payed to the poor , the rest being abated by widdows , aged , sick and absent persons : of which number of thirteen hundred , how had five hundred eighty six , rich five hundred eighty three , bethel seven hundred and three , and smith seven hundred and sixteen ; so that though by the pole at large , how and rich had near three hundred more than bethel and smith , these two latter , upon a true account , had near one hundred and thirty more than the two former , as may be observed by the above mentioned numbers . fourthly , because so long as this method of poling is continued , the burrough of southwark will never be truely represented in parliament ; the candidates that live upon the place , being always able to make their numbers by illegal polers , as great as they please . antiently , and in the memory of some living , none were admitted to the election , but such as by their taxes appeared to be the most substantial inhabitants , which was acquiesced in without poling ; but of late that way is not only by the bayliff , increased to all that pay to the poor , ( against which none can object ) but even to all that will but say they are house-keepers , under which notion it is , that the true electors are abused . this fraud hath been complained of to two parliaments , but both dissolved before business came to hearing , otherwise it is more than probable it would have been reformed . the last election , bethel and smith , being sensible that there was no poling for them against all the beggars in the town , they with many inhabitants , propounded to the bayliff , to pole by the poors books , and to convince him of the reasonableness thereof , delivered him the opinions of two serjeants at law , and one bencher , under their own hands , that none had right to pole , save such as at least paid to the poor , and also inforced this opinion , by the votes of the commons in parliament , in the case of other burroughs , fully to the same effect : but though the bayliff confessed it was but reasonable it should be so , yet he would not be prevailed with , to do that which he owned to be reasonable ; from whence it is , that the burrough hath not had in the two last parliaments representatives , which have been duly chosen by true electors . and thus much may suffice at present , to shew the irregular , and unjust way of election of members to serve in parliament , for the town and burrough of southwark . the tryal of slingsby bethel esq on wednesday the fifth of october . at the bridge-house in southwark , before the right honourable sir patience ward lord mayor , &c. the court being sate , the jury were called as followeth , whose names are desired to be mentioned with their distinctions , because there are several others in southwark of the same names . jury-men . edward collingwood brazier , alias tinker . francis waker comb-maker . zebulon newington chandler , alias salter . william head. woollen-draper humphrey roberts john allyn baker . john morgan grocer william morice francis ferrey richard frankling thomas wade butcher , and private informer for the custom-house . edward kemp ale-draper . being sworn , the indictment was read. the indictment at the general quarter sessions of the peace , of our soveraign lord the king , for the town and burrough of southwark , in the county of surrey , at the bridge-house within the town and burrough aforesaid , to wit the twenty ninth day of june , in the thirty third year of the raign of our soveraign lord charles the second , king of england , &c. the jurors for our soveraign lord the king , upon their oath do present , that slingsby bethel , late of the parish of st. olaves southwark , within the town and burrough aforesaid , in the county of surrey , esquire , on the twelfth day of march , in the three and thirtieth year of the king , with force and arms , at the parish aforesaid , and within the town and burrough aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , in and upon one robert mason , at that time one of the kings water-men , in the peace of god , and of our lord the king , then and there standing , did assault and make a battery , and the said robert mason , then and there most griveously , and dangerously did beat , wound , and evil intreat , so that his life was greatly dispaired of , and other innormities that then and there he offered to , and brought on the said robert mason : and that the same slingsby bethel , then and there ( to wit ) the same twelfth day of march , in the thirty third year aforesaid , in the parish aforesaid , in the town and burrough aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , in the presence and hearing of very many of the subjects of our soveraign lord the king , then and there to the said robert mason , he spake , uttered , and with a loud voice , declared and publisht these provoking , threatning and approbious words ( to wit ) syrrah , pointing at the said robert mason , i ( meaning himself slingsby bethel : ) will have your coat , ( a certain cloth coat of a red colour ; with which the said robert mason , then and there was covered , and adorned with a certain badge of our said lord the king upon the said coat , ) pluck'd off your back , to the great terrour , disturbance and trouble of divers , of our soveraign lords liege people and subjects , being then and there present , to the evil example of all others offending in the like case , as also against the peace , crown and dignity of our soveraign lord the king , &c. councellor peasely . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , slingsby bethel esq stands indicted , for that he the said slingsby bethel , made an assault and battery on robert mason : as also for menacing and threatning words ; saying , to him , the said robert mason , sirrah i will have your coat pluck'd off your back , to the great terrour and damage of the said robert mason , &c , to which indictment he has pleaded not guilty . mulloy , my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am councel for the king against slingsby bethel , esq who upon the twelfth day of march last , in the thirty third year of the king , did assault robert mason , one of the kings watermen , and did injuriously beat and strike the said robert mason , did give several opprobious words , saying he would have his coat pluck'd off his back , &c. to which he pleadeth not guilty . holt. my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am councel for the king against slignsby bethel , esq you understand the issue you are to try , it hath been opened : the question is , whether mr. slingsby bethel be guilty of this battery , and the matter contained in the indictment , and the agravating words therein , or no. the occasion was , that in march last , there was an an election for two burgesses , to be chosen to serve in parliament , for this burrough ; this robert mason was desired to come from lambeth , to see whether any of that parish came to pole , which had no right so to do . the competitors were sir richard how , captain rich , slingsby bethel , and edw. smith , esquiers , mr. slingsby bethel , shewed at his entrance into the burrough what inclination and temper he came with , for his followers , and such as came with him , came with their god-damme's , and several execrable oaths against those that voted against him ; after the election began , and the pole demanded , truly then mr. bethel acted his part , and took occasion to go off from the place where he was , and strike several persons that were acting against him , particularly this robert mason , finding him to be against him , took his cane , and knocked him over the pate , and afterward knowing him to be kings waterman , said he deserved to have his coat pluck'd over his ears ; were the affront against him as a single person , it were not of so bad consequence , but we are to take notice of the solemnity of the occasion of the meeting , now consider the occasion , it was for the chusing of parliament men , and had it not been for the prudence of the waterman , in forbearing to strike again , god knows the effects , and what an uproar it might have occasioned : but he prudently refrained , and took his course in a legal way , and according to law hath preferred this indictment against mr. slingsby bethel . now though the said mr. bethel be so great a man , and a person of value , lately sheriff of the city of london , and he robert mason , appearing to be but a poor waterman , yet i don't question , he will find an english jury to do him right . kings councel . call mr. robert mason , arthur adams , tho. walbrooke , griffin meade , tho. smyth , alexander dory , 〈◊〉 lawrence . councellor holt. mason , what can you say on the kings , and your own behalf concerning this matter . robert mason . i was standing upon the steps by the door in the artillery ground , and mr. bethel came and gave me divers blows , on the stairs , knock'd me with his cane , and followed me down beating of me , and said , sirrah , i will have your coat pluck'd over your ears , and i answered , so you would my masters too , if you could . counsellor thompson . by whose sollicitation came you there ? mason . i was desired to be there . thompson . what did he strike you also with his fist ? mason . yes . thompson . where did he hurt you with all his blows ? mason . on the breast . thompson . how many blows ? mason . he gave me twenty blows at least , i can swear safely , but how many more i know not . thompson . did not you , before mr. bethel came there , interrupt the peoples coming to pole , and what did mr. bethel say ? mason . he asked what i did there , and bid me go down . justice pyrs . did mr. bethel single you out from the rest of the company . mason , yes he did . kings councel . call adams . adams , what can you say ? did you see mr. bethel strike mason , and what words did he say ? adams , first witness . there was a tumult at the stairs , and they called to me , being constable , and when i came , mr. bethel , and mason were together , and a great company followed them , i said sirs pray keep the peace , and i saw mr. bethel gave him two or three shugs , and said , sirrah , i will have your coat off your back , and mason answered , i , and so you would my masters too , if you could . holt. adams , tell the court what do you think would have been the consequence if mason had struck again . adams . it would have been of a sad consequence . holt. what was mr. bethels behaviour , when he entered into the burrough ? did you see him come into the burrough ? adams . they came in and cryed no abhorrers , no abhorrers . thompson . did you hear mr. bethel say so ? adams . no , did you hear him swear ? adams , no. thompson . vvho was it that swore ? holt , he that rid first . thompson , mason said mr. bethel gave him twenty blows , did you see it ? adams . i was not there all the while , i did not see it . third witness . thomas walbrooke , what can you say to the case in hand ? walbrooke . i stood by the stairs when mr. bethel passed by , i saw mr. bethel thrust him down the stairs , and i said , robert take care what you do : mr. bethel said , sirrah come down ; mason said , i will come when i see my own time , i do no body any hurt : mr. bethel answered , i command you to come down ; and his answer was , i will when i see my own time . thompson . did you see any blow given by mr. bethel ? walbrooke . no , i saw none , i won't swear to any blows , but i saw two or three pushes in the brest , he pushed him back . thompson . and how many blows were given , ten or twenty , or how many ? walbrooke . i will not answer any thing concerning that . thompson . upon the oath you have taken , being ( i think ) you are an honest man , had the waterman this coat on at that time ? or had he not a campain coat over it ? walbrooke . he had that coat , but i don't remember any other . kings councel . call griffith meade . give an account of what you can of this matter . griffith mead. i saw a great number of people come to the place , and saw mr. bethel give him a push , and that was all . thompson . what words did you hear ? meade . no words . thompson . how was this man cloathed ? was he cloathed with this coat , or had he not a campane coate over it ? meade . i cannot tell . thompson . upon the oath you have taken , how many blows did you see given , because they say twenty ? meade . no blows at all , but a little push . call thomas smith , he appeared . what do you know ? smith . as robert mason and my self stood together , mr. bethel came round the burying place , and he brought a great multitude of persons with him , and bid mason come down the steps ; mason answered , i will come down when i see my time . mr. bethel said , if you will not come down , i will have your coat pluckt off your back ; afterwards , many words passed , which i cannot remember , and mr. bethel pusht him on the breast . second councel . mr. smith pray give the court an account of the behaviour of the men that followed mr. bethel , did you not see mr. bethel give robert mason a push when he was in the artillery ground ? smith . i saw none . holt. what do you think the consequence had been , if mason had struck again ? smith . had he given any blows again , i do believe a hundred and a hundred had been slain . thompson . smith , pray give an account of the behaviour of the men that came with mr. bethel , and what coat mason wore , and whether he had not a campane coat on it ? smith . sir i know not that , but he had the same coat then on his back , which he has on now ? thompson . why what made you think , if mason had struck mr. bethel , that it would have made such a great disturbance ? smith . because he was the kings servant . call alexander dory . dory , give the court an account of the matter in question , did you see mr. bethel give mason any blows ? dory . sir , mr. bethel gave him some pushes in the breast , and said , he would have his coat off his back . thompson . had he the same coat on as now he hath ? dory . i saw the same , and no other . mulley . call lawrence , he appeared . lawrence give the court and jury an account of what you know of the quarrel between mr. bethel , and robert mason ; did you see mr. bethel give him any blows ? and give an account of the behaviour of mr. bethel and his company , when they came into the burrough . thompson . this indictment is for an assault and battery , if you can give any account of that do , but not of the behaviour of those that came with mr. bethel ; that is not the matter at this time . holt. i answer , sir it is not , but we aske the question , to make out the behaviour of mr. bethel and his company , and shall leave it to the jury , what judgment to make of it . lawrence . i saw the persons that came with mr. bethel , hectoring and swearing at a strange rate , and the persons which rid before cryed , hollow , hollow . thompson . i appeal to mr. holt , what if john an oakes or tom a styles swear and hector , &c. shall mr. bethel answer for that , in a matter that falls out long afterwards , as this did ? lawrence . i saw their behaviour , as i have said , and when mr. bethel came to robert mason , he stood with his hands behind him , mr. bethel bid him come down , he said no , he would not ; then said mr. bethel , i will pluck your coat off your back ; and mason answered , i and so you would my masters too , if you could . lord mayor . did mr. bethel swear when he came into the borrough ? lawrence . no. lord mayor . who did swear ? laur. he that rid first . mr. thompson . may it please your lordship , i am of councel for mr. bethel the defendant , who has been , and stands indicted for making an assault and battery upon robert mason , and for speaking many menacing and threatning words , as that he would pull his coat over his ears , &c. and for giving several blows ; unto which , we have pleaded not guilty . they have produced several witnesses , and robert mason himself , ( who is so thorow-stitch in the case ) that he swears so , as no one can believe him , for his own witnesses do not ; for they do not swear , nor pretend to swear like him , being not able to stretch at that rate ; he is desperately mistaken , to speak the best of him . for this mason swears mr. bethel gave him twenty blows at least , but how many more he cannot say ; see how this will look , when we shall prove ( by substantial and credible men ) that not one blow was given , or push either ; but suppose he were pusht , yet his evidence agree not one with another ; for some swear to one push , some to more ; but mr. mason swears to the full number of twenty blows at least , and that positively , but how many more he doth not remember . but suppose it were so , yet the matter is not so much , but what may be justified by the occasion given , and what would be a good plea in law , in an action , will be the same upon pleading not guilty , in this case . may it please your lordship , the occasion of mr. bethels coming here , was this , being about the chusing of parliament men for this burrough , the competitors were sir richard how , mr. rich , mr. bethel , and mr. smith ; there was a house wherein they appointed to pole , called the artillery-house : when they came to take the pole at this place , where there is a pair of stairs which leads to the door , the manner of taking the pole was thus , first to fill the house , by that door to the stairs , and after they had voted to put them out at the other door ; this being the occasion of the battery ( however agravated ) will to all that know it , or shall take the matter into consideration , seem a very shameful thing , to ground an indictment upon . but this mason , a very officious man , who had no right to pole , ( as himself confesses ) and who might have spared the trouble ( for any authority he had ) of coming there , and it might have been better he had staied at home , by what he has sworn , this man and one sam sams , a hectoring carr-man , were set upon the stairs ; and their business was not ( as they now pretend ) to take notice who were fit to pole , but to understand who were for mr. bethel , and mr. smyth , and those they did abuse , and push them down the steps , which mr. bethel being informed of , came out of the house , and spake civilly to them , and said , friends what have you to do here , if you have not a right to pole come down from the place , which mason refusing , the defendant took him gently by the hand and led him down the steps , giving neither blow nor push : we shall call witnesses to prove this , — now for a gentleman that stood as one of the competitors for a parliament man at that time in that place , he might do this to a person that had nothing to do there , nay they themselves say there ought not to be any interruption at an election , and that the interruption was from themselves and that occasioned the mighty battery they make so much of . we shall call our witnesses , and shall make this matter appear to be our case , and then though mason hath spoken of twenty blows , if believ'd , as there is but little reason for it , it will be sufficiently justified by the witness we shall produce , and the evidence we shall give in this matter . call mr. nath. travers constable , mr. benjamin tarrant , mr. george hampton , mr. mark clark , mr. thomas weeks , mr. benjamin gerrard . thomson . let us begin with mr. traverse . mr traverse , what account can you give of the matter ? traverse . may it please your lordship , i remember it as if it were but just now ; i was called out of the house to come to this door , hearing the people were in a very great disturbance , i came to this robert mason , and said , what do you there to make this disturbance ? have you a right to poll ? he answered , it may be i may . i told him , if he would not be civil , i should take a course to indict him . thomson . and what was he doing ? traverse . he was throwing people from both sides with his elbows , in this time a report being carried to sheriff bethel , of a persons legg broken , and a man like to be kill'd , sheriff bethel came to the steps and took him just by the arm thus — shewing the manner — and said , pray friend , what hast thou to do here ? hast thou a right to poll ? at first he said he had , afterwards he said no ; then said sheriff bethel , pray go about your business : mr. bethel gave no blow , nor did so much as shew any passion , or angry countenance . and said no more . but others said , mason was a rude person , and that he deserved to have his coat pluckt over his ears . thompson . did you not hear mr. bethel say so ? travers . — no , but it was said by some of the company . thompson . i ask one question more , mason said he had twenty blows , what say you to that ? traverse . he had not one upon the oath that i have taken . thompson . had he this coat on or no. traverse . truly i know not , i cannot tell , but he had a badge , whereby he discovered himself to be some gentlemans servant . thompson . was sams there ? holt. mr. thompson , is that a fair question ? thompson . i did it purposely to try your observation , you would call to what others did long before the battery , i must not ask if one was there at the time of the battery . holt. did you not see mr. bethel on the artillery ground , was not mason pusht there . travers . i tell you , sir , there was not one blow given . holt. then you did not see the quarrel on the ground ? travers . i tell you , there was no quarrel on the ground ; i stood on the steps when sheriff bethel came , and the sheriff , when he was half way the steps , seeing the water-mans posture he was in , said , friend , have you any thing to do to poll ; if you have not , why do you make a disturbance ? he answered , it may be i have , and it may be not : pray friend , said sheriff bethel , if you have not , come down : i went from thence about the ground , and did not see the least blow given , or any appearance of passion . thompson . before mr. bethel came , how did this man behave himself , did he not shout and behave himself rudely ? holt. let him speak of himself , let not words be put into his mouth . thompson . had he a red-coat on ? travers . i cannot say it . thompson . mr. tarrant , what can you say ? tarrant . i was on the ground when the sheriff came , i was at some distance ; but upon the oath i have taken , i saw mr. bethel and the waterman coming together ; but i saw no blow , and i am sure there was not one blow given . mr. weekes , give an account of what you know . weekes . my lord , i saw sheriff bethel when he came into the ground , and went up the steps , i made haste after him , and was there all the while , and there was nothing like a blow ; but all he did was to this purpose : pray friend , ( said he ) if you have no right to poll , go your way , what have you to do here ? and i followed after him into the artillery ground , and there was nothing of a blow , or any thing like it . thompson . you were there all the while ? weekes . yes , i was . thompson . yet mason saith , there were twenty blows given . weekes . upon the oath i have taken , there was none , nor any thing like it . holt. mr. weekes , do you live in london , or do you live in the burrough ? weekes . sir , i live in london . holt. what is this witness to the purpose then ? thompson . may not a man live in london , and be a good evidence here ? notwithstanding , call mr. gerrad . mr. gerrad , what can you say ? gerrad . my lord , i was in the ground before mr. s. b. came out of the polling-house , and i saw this waterman and sam. sams thrusting of people down , that seemed to be for mr. b. and smyth , crying how and rich. weekes . my lord , my memory failed in this point ; but upon the oath i have taken , what that gentleman swears , it is true . thompson . pray , sir , ( as you seem a sober man ) were any blows struck by mr. bethel ? gerrad . i went with sheriff bethel there at that time , and he asked the waterman what he had to do there ? i cannot well tell what answer he made : but mr. sheriff said , if you have no right to poll , pray go about your business ; upon the oath i have taken , he did not strike one blow , no more than he doth now standing in this court before your lordship . lord mayor . was there any pushing , or thrusting , by mr. bethel ? gerrad . upon my oath , my lord , not any . thompson . and you say you were there all the while , and saw no disturbance given by mr. bethel ? gerrad . i am sure there was not . thompson . had he this coat on or no , or had he not a campaign coat on ? gerrad . to the best of my remembrance he had a campaign coat on , and i believe he had . thompson . mr. hatfield , pray give an account of what you know of this matter . hatfield . there were two men which i saw in red coats , which pusht down the people that came to poll for mr. bethel , before mr. bethel came ; and had not mr. bethel come to appease the tumult , i do believe there had been much mischief done by them and sams , &c. thompson . upon the oath you have taken , were there any blows given ? hatfield . no , sir , there were none . thompson . were there any blows given by mr. bethel ? hatfield . no , sir , not one : for mr. bethel being informed of the incivility of mason and sams , mr. bethel came civilly to them , and intreated them to come down , and bid them be gone , and not make a disturbance . mulloy . call lawrence again , to shew that mason did not make the disturbance . lawrence . i saw robert mason , and the party with him , behave themselves very civil ; and the disturbance that was , proceeded from the other party . thompson . this is the same man we had but now , he is called to witness again ; a pretty way of multiplying witnesses : i appeal to mr. mason himself , whether this be not the same man you called once before ? thompson . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , i think the case is plain , and needs no arguments : i shall onely take notice how careful these men are ( as they pretend ) to keep the king's peace . the matter you see , in short , is , mr. bethel ( who stood for a parliament man of this place , and at the same time bore an eminent character , ( as sheriff of the city of london ) upon information given of the disturbance made by this mason , and of the unfairness of their proceedings , only came civilly , and took him by the arm , perswading him to come away , and make no disturbance . and this is the truth of the case , and the mighty battery they pretend to . now suppose , that when people are in such a crowd , and upon such an occasion , there were some pushes , ( as is the utmost here pretended ) could this be a sufficient matter to ground an indictment upon ? no , gentlemen , no : this indictment , and the design of it is to raise a dust , and ( if possible ) to cast reflections on mr. bethel , but 't is more than they can do in point of law , by any matter here proved , if masons witnesses do swear true ; yet you see how mason behaves himself , crying how and rich , striking down all that came between sam. sams and him ; so they broke the peace , and raised the disturbance themselves . and in that case any man ( and why not mr. bethel ? ) might have taken him , and carried him before a magistrate , and have justified it . but now , for the credit of the thing ; you see none swears it but mason himself ; but even he swears to that impossibility , so over-reaches the matter through the excess of his passion in swearing , that no one can believe him ; if he had sworn modestly , as the rest did , to two or three pushes , it might have been credited ; but to twenty blows , no one can believe it ; neither doth any one of his own witnesses swear like him , or of so much as one blow given : so there is not one word mason saith can be credited . then , my lord , admit it be so ; yet you saw m. bethel was not the person that first began this disturbance ; now if the other party had been indicted and tryed , ( as indeed it had been much more fit they should ) we could have proved much against them . — and as to the fact and manner of what mr. bethel did , it was no more than coming in a civil manner , asking whether he had a right to poll ? when he said no , he took him civilly by the arm and led him down ; and this is a justifiable assault , being the nature of the thing required a necessity of somewhat of action in it . i appeal to you of the jury , whether here be any cause for this indictment , or colour of reason for you to find it ? holt. gentlemen of the jury , you have heard the evidence on both sides , and the question is , whether , in your consciences , you can dis-believe eight witnesses , that swear positively to the battery , and believe those witnesses that did not see it ? if you acquit mr. bethel , you must necessarily convict eight persons of perjury : but if you do not find for mr. bethel , the other witnesses cannot be convicted of perjury ; for how can men swear , ( though they were there all the time ) that they did not see ? possibly they may be very honest men , and present at the time , and yet not see bethel strike , and so not swear to it : but our witnesses swear very true ; i hope you will be guided by sense and conscience , and not by spectators humours , and apprehensions , that come here and hiss in a court of justice : now eight witnesses swearing it , i do appeal to the court , whether in matters of this nature , one witness for the affirmative , be not more valid than many of the negative ? they take notice of the impossibility , and why , because they swear ( as they say ) at an extravagant rate , that mr. bethel gave him twenty blows . gentlemen , if mr. bethel will beat a man extravagantly , it is not extravagancie to swear it : now mason's evidence is confirmed by all the rest produced , and no contradiction : if one swear to ten , and another to two , and another to three , is this inconsistent ? no , gentlemen , it is evident those men swear cautiously and fearfully , for if otherwise , they could swear to as many as twenty , as mason hath done : who is the best judge , he that felt the blows , or they that swear there was not one given ? he that felt them , i am sure . gentlemen , it was in a crowd , 't is possible they may not see all ; yet their evidence is a concurring circumstance . next i come to the point of law , how a man that is a candidate at an election , can beat any man that stands in his way ; i do not understand that to be law : if any man had beaten mr. bethel , he might have beaten him again in his own defence ; but there was no such thing . mr. bethel saw no disturbance himself , but was informed of it , and so became too officious ; though he was sheriff of london , yet he was not an officer there ; for he was not a constable there ; and it was a constables office , and he only could have seized him , and not a constable neither , unless he had seen the kings peace broken . and as to what mr. thompson saith , that it is impossible that such an election should be carried on without some bustle ; it 's true , in a crowd men justling one another , and by accident strike another down , it 's no battery ; but is it necessary for mr. bethel to thump a a man on the breast ? is it necessary for mr. bethel to beat a man with his cane ? is it necessary for mr. bethel to give a man twenty blows ? is it necessary for mr. bethel to pluck a mans coat off his back ? is it necessary to an election ? it is not necessary , and so being not necessary , is not by law justifiable . gentlemen , as mr. thompson saith , it is a case of example ; i say so too ; and it is fit persons that will do such things , should be made an example . justice pyrs afterwards summed up the evidence , and told the jury , ( as mr. holt the counsellor for the king had before well observed ) that they were to have regard to the positive affirmative evidence , mason having sworn positively to several blows that were struck by mr. bethel , and that eight witnesses had sworn in the affirmative ; and that though there were seven witnesses produced by mr. bethel , which were on the negative part ; yet they were to observe , that the law did not allow of those negative evidences : but for that so ma-many had sworn in the affirmative , that they saw a thing done , and as many swear that they saw it not ; he could not tell what to say , but to leave it to the jury ; saying , that one affirmative was better than forty negative oaths . so the jury went out , and in a very short time were pleased to find the indictment , and brought mr. bethel in guilty . then mr. bethel's counsel moved in arrest of judgment , for that no indictment lay for the words , and the court for that reason stayed the judgment , as to that part of the indictment , and gave judgment only as to the assault and battery , and fined mr. bethel five marks . upon which the counsel for the king moved to have him taken into custody , until he paid the fine , which he presently paid , and so was discharged . the crowd was so exceeding great , that i could not take this trial so exactly as otherwise i should have done , but the defects are only to the prejudice of mr. bethel . postscript . having as a preface to this trial , shewn the occasion of the indictment , i shall here make some observations upon the prosecution of it . and first , as to mason , those that know him best , think it as improbable ( his estate considered ) that he should be at the charge of three counsel in this business , as it is that a man of his bulk and temper should tamely receive twenty blows with a stick , without returning one ; or be pursued with blows in the presence of five hundred men , at least , without having it taken notice of by any one besides himself , or especially , that his partner and companion , sam. sams , who stood close by him , should not see one blow given , as he hath affirmed to one mr. farthing , his southwark neighbour , he did not ; adding , that he would not forswear himself for all the world . but the plaintif was not thus alone more than ordinarily concerned ; for his counsel were the same , otherwise at the opening of the cause , they would not impertinently , and from the matter , have inferred mr. bethel's quarrelsome and rude intentions , from the company that came first into the burrough with him , whom they rendred to be none but debauched god dammee's , though when it was put upon them to declare who they were that swore at that rate , they could not instance in any , save one , whom they described by his riding first , as not daring to name him : and were it true , that such a person was in the company , it was as uncharitable a synechdoche , to condemn a considerable number of grave and sober citizens , who never were known to be guilty of swearing or cursing , for the fault of one man , as it was indecent in them to describe reproachfully a person of great quality , because they durst not name him : but to make amends for this , in the case of a fellow commoner , after a fine of five marks was laid upon mr. bethel , the same counsel moved to have him taken into custody , until he paid the money , insinuating thereby , that otherwise he might run away , and defraud the baliff of his fine . mr. recorder not being at the court , he who in his absence gave directions to the jury , told them , that they had mason's positive oath , that one affirmative was better than forty negative oaths , and therefore they must either find bethel guilty , or they would make mason perjured . which passing for law with the jury , they brought him in guilty of the assault and batterie . the bench being now to set the fine , my lord mayor and sir thomas allen ( considering the nature of the action ) thought s. d. enough , but the rest were for several higher sums , yet at last all centred in five marks . and thus the whole matter is left to the reader , to make what judgment and conclusions he pleaseth upon it . finis . a murderer punished and pardoned, or, a true relation of the wicked life, and shameful-happy death of thomas savage imprisoned, justly condemned, and twice executed at ratcliff, for his bloody fact in killing his fellow-servant, on wednesday, octob. , / by us who were often with him in the time of his imprisonment in newgate, at at his execution, robert franklin, thomas vincent, thomas doolitel, james janeway, hugh baker ; to which is annexed a sermon preached at his funeral. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing a a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a murderer punished and pardoned, or, a true relation of the wicked life, and shameful-happy death of thomas savage imprisoned, justly condemned, and twice executed at ratcliff, for his bloody fact in killing his fellow-servant, on wednesday, octob. , / by us who were often with him in the time of his imprisonment in newgate, at at his execution, robert franklin, thomas vincent, thomas doolitel, james janeway, hugh baker ; to which is annexed a sermon preached at his funeral. r. a. (richard alleine), - . janeway, james, ?- . franklin, robert, - . the twelfth edition: p. printed for p. p., london, in the year, . attributed to richard alleine by wing ( nd ed.). the sermon is by james janeway--cf. bm catalog. imperfect: stained, torn and tightly bound, with slight loss of print. reproduction of original in: william andrews clark memorial library, university of california, los angeles. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng savage, thomas, d. . blay, hannah. bible. -- n.t. -- timothy, nd, ii, -- sermons. murder -- england. trials (murder) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a murderer punished ; and pardoned or , a true relation of the wicked life , and shameful-happy death of thomas savage ; imprisoned , justly condemned , and twice executed at ratcliff , for his bloody fact in killing his fellow-servant , on wednesday , octob. . . by us who were often with him in the time of his imprisonment in newgate , and at his execution : robert franklin , thomas vincent , thomas doolitel , james janeway , hugh baker . to which is annexed a sermon preached at his funeral . the twelfth edition : with the addition of the leud life , and shameful death of hannah blay , who was condemned and executed for being guilty of the bloody murther committed by thomas savage . with other new additions . london , printed for p. p. in the year , . to the reader . in the following narrative you have a relation of the bloody murther committed by t. savage , with an account of the wonderful mercies of god to his poor soul after the committing so bloody a sin . to which is added a short relation of the carriage and behaviour of that vile strumpet hannah blay , during the time of her being in newgate to her execution : which , though it hath nothing in it worthy to be related , yet , she being an instrumental cause of that bloody resolution , was thought fit to be inserted , that she may remain as an example of shame to all leud women , and a severe example of gods justice upon such cruel monsters , who are not contented with endangering the soul of such ignorant young men , that have not the fear of god before their eyes , with their abominable whoredomes and adulteries , but as it were to make sure of destroying both body and soul together by adding to their former sins the guilt of shedding innocent blood : and as you have a wonderful instance of gods free-grace to the soul of t. s. so the foulness of his fact , the danger of damning his soul , and the twice shameful execution which he suffred , may be a means to preserve all young men and apprentices from being guilty of the like fact . and as a help to you herein , you are advised to be very careful what company you keep . that you addict not your selves to drinking , or gaming , or company-keeping , which is the ruin of many young men , who by getting a habit of keeping company , or other vices , are to often drawn to purloin from their masters , to maintain them in their extravagancies . by which means they do not only run the hazard of exposing their bodies to publique-shame , if they be discovered , to the great grief , and even heart breaking of their friends , when they hear of their ill courses but the wrath of god and eternal damnation of their poor souls , as you may see in the narrative of t. s. who first began with company-keeping , from company-keeping to whoring , from whoring to thieving and murther . and lastly , be careful to spend the lords-day , and all thy other spare time in the service of god , as reading , praying , hearing the word preached , which may be a means to preserve thee from the guilt of sins of this nature , and other sins likewise , if thou apply thy self seriously to this work . but whiles i am advising of others , i my self commit an error in exceeding my ●onds , being confined to a page , i rest . a real well-wisher to the eternal happiness of your immortal soul . blood doth cry aloud ; the blood of man , when violently shed by cruel hands for private revenge or covetousness , or the satisfaction of some such base lust , doth cry as far from earth to heaven for vengeance : and however some horrible murder may be secretly plotted and as secretly effected , yet seldom are they long unpunished even in this world , for besides that sometimes the guilty accusing consciences of such persons who have committed this heinous crime , do so inwardly lash and torment them , that they can find no rest until they have made discovery of the fact with their own mouth ; there is the all-seeing eye of sin revenging god , which doth find them , and a strange hand of his providence which doth often follow them , and entangle them in their steps ( when they are flying and seeking some hiding-place ) which doth as it were bind them before they are in chains , and deliver them before they are aware , into the hands of justice to be punished . but there is another blood which doth send forth a louder cry , namely the blood of the lord jesus christ , which was shed for the sins of men , which speaketh better things than the blood of abel , crying for mercy and forgiveness , this blood hath such prevalency and vertue , that when it is applyed by faith unto the most notorious malefactor guilty of blood , as well as other wickedness : it doth out-cry and drown the voice of blood and every other sin , and washeth the most impure soul , dyed in sin unto a scarlet and crimson hue . this blood we hope was sprinkled upon the conscience of this murtherer , who had a little before embrued his hands in the blood of his fellow-servant : for having given such evidence of his sincere repentance , and true faith , unto several of us ministers and other christians that were with him , before and at his execution : we hope , though he were justly punished with the first death by the hand of man for his crime , that through infinite free grace and christs blood , he hath escaped the second death and wrath of god in hell. the narrative may give the same satisfaction to others , which the publishers hereof have received , which is as followeth . thomas savage , born in the parish of giles in the fields , he was put out apprentice to mr. collins , vintner at the ship-tavern in ratcliff , where he lived about the space of one year and three quarters : in which time he manifested himself to all that knew him , to be a meer monster in sin : in all that time he never once knew what it was to hear one whole sermon ; but used to go in at one door , and out at the other ; and accounted them fools that could spare so much time from sin as or hours on a lords day to spend in the lords service . he spent the sabbath commonly at the ale-house , or rather at a base house with that vile strumpet hannah blay , which was the cause of his ruine ; he was by a young man ( now gone to sea ) first enticed to go drink there , and after that he went alone , and now and then used to bring her a bottle or two of wine which satisfied not her wicked desires ; but she told him , if he would frequent her house , he must bring money with him : he told her often , he could bring none but his masters , and he never wronged his master of two-pence in his life : still she enticed him to take it privately : he replyed he could not do it , because the maid was always at home with him . hang her jade saith this impudent slut , knock her brains out , and i will receive the money ; this she many times said , and that day that he committed the murther , he was with her in the morning , and she made him drunk with burnt brandy , and he wanted one groat to pay of his reckoning : she then again perswaded him to knock the maid on the head , and she would receive the money ; he going home between twelve and one of the clock , his master standing at the street-door , did not dare to go in that way , but climbed over a back-door , and commeth into the room where his fellow-servants were at dinner : o saith the maid to him , sirrah , you have been now at this bawdy-house , you will never leave till you are undone by them : he was much vexed at her ; and while he was at dinner , the devil entered so strong into him , that nothing would satisfie him but he must kill her ; and no other way , but with the hammer ; to which end , when his master was gone with all the rest of his family to church , leaving only the maid and this boy at home ; he goeth into the bar , fetcheth the hammer : and taketh the bellows in his hand , and sitteth down by the fire , and there knocketh the bellows with the hammer : the maid saith to him ; sure the boy is mad , sirrah , what do you make this noise for ? he said nothing , but went from the chair , and lay along in the kitchin window , and knocked with the hammer there ; and on a sudden threw the hammer with such force at the maid ; that hitting her on the head she fell down presently , screaking out , then he taketh up the hammer three times , and did not dare to strike her any more , at last the devil was so great with him , that he taketh the hammer , and striketh her many blows with all the force he could , and even rejoyced that he had got the victory over her ; which done , he immediately taketh the hammer , and with it strikes at the cupboard door in his masters chamber , which being but slit-deal presently flew open , and thence he taketh out a bag of money , and putting it upon his arm , under his cloak , he went out at a back-door straight-way to this base house again : when he came thither , the slut would fain have seen what he had under his cloak , and knowing what he had done , would very fain have had the money : he gave her half a crown , and away he went without any remorse for what he had done . going over a stile he sat down to rest himself , and then began to think with himself ; lord what have i done ! and he would have given ten thousand worlds he could have recalled the blow . after this , he was in so much horrour , that he went not one step but he thought every one he met came to take him . he got that night to green-wich , and lay there ; telling the people of the house that he was to go down to gravesend : that night he rose and walked about , and knew not what to do , conscience so flew in his face , the mistress of the house percieving the lad to have money , and not sealed up , said , i wish this lad came by this money honestly . the next morning he going away towards woolliedge , the mistress of the house could not be satisfied , but sent for him back , and told him , sweetheart , i fear you came not by this money honestly . yes indeed mistress , saith he , i did ; for i am carrying of it down to gravesend to my master , a wine cooper . vve live upon london-bridge , and if you please to send any one to my mistress i will leave my money with you . so there were some people going to london , and he writ a note to send to his mistress , and he left the money with the woman of the house , and went his way , wandring toward vvoolliedge , and there was in the ship-yard ; about which time news came to greenwich of the murther that was committed at ratcliff by a youth , upon his fellow-servant , and that a bag of money was taken away : the mistress of the house forthwith concluded that sureit was the same youth that was at her house and that that was the money ; whereupon she sent men out presently to seek him : who found him in an ale-house , where he had called for a pot of beer , and was laid down with his head on the table and fallen asleep : one of the men calling him by his name , tom , saith he , did you not live at ratcliff ? he said , yes , and did you not murther your fellow-servant ? he confessed it : and you took so much money from your master ? he acknowledged all : then said they , you must go along with us : he said , yes , with all my heart . so they went forthwith to greenwich , to the house where he lay that night : where when he came , he met his master with some friends , and when his master spake to him of it , he was not much affected at first , but after a little while burst out into many tears : thence he was conveyed to the justice at ratcliff , where he fully confessed the fact again , and by him was committed close prisoner in the gaol of newgate , where mr. h. b. ( who after some acquaintance with him , had this preceeding narrative from his own mouth ) came to see and speak with him : and he seemed but little sensible of what he had done . are you ( said he ) the person that committed the murther upon the maid at ratcliff ? he said , yes : o what think you of your condition ) what do you think will become of your precious sou ? you have by this sin not only brought your body to the grave , but your soul to hell , without gods infinite mercy : were you not troubled for the fact when you did it ? not for the present , sir , said he ; but soon after i was , when i began to think with my self what i had done . the next time he asked him , whether he were sorry for the fact ? he said , wringing his hands , and striking his breast , with tears in his eyes yes , sir , for it cuts me to the heart to think that i should take away the life of a poor innocent creature ; and that is not all , but for any thing i know , i have sent her soul to hell : o how can i think to appear before god's barr , when she shall stand before me , and say , lord , this wretch took away my life , and gave me not the least space that i might turn to thee : he gave me no warning at all , lord. o then what will become of me ? soon after the imprisonment of this thomas savage , in new gate . upon the desire of one of his friends , mr. r. f. and t. v. went to him in the prison , and had liberty , with much readiness , from the keepers , to discourse with him : they asked him , if he were the person that had murthered the maid ? he answered , that he was ; they did then open to him the heinous nature of that sin , endeavouring to set it home upon his conscience , telling him of the express law of god , thou shalt not kill , and the express threatnings , that whosoever sheddeth mans blood , by man shall his blood be shed . they spake to him of the law of the land , and the punishment of death which would certainly be inflicted upon him ; that he had but a few vveeks more to live , and then he would be tryed , and condemned , and executed : but they told him , that the punishment of the temporal death was but small in comparison with the punishment of eternal death in hell , which he had deserved , and was exposed unto . they told him , that so long as death should make a separation between his soul and body , that his soul must immediately appear before the dreadful tribunal of the sin revenging god , and there receive its final doom , and be irreversibly sentenced to depart from the presence of the lord , into everlasting fire , if he were found under the guilt of this , or any other sin . they asked him if he knew what hell was ? telling him what a fearful thing it would be for him to fall into the hands of the living god ; how intolerable the immediate expressions of gods wrath would be upon his soul , what horror and anguish he would there be filled withal , and how he would be bound up in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day ; and then told him of the glorious appearance of the lord jesus christ to judgment : that soul and body should be then joyned together , and condemned together , and punished together with such exquisite torments as never entred into the heart of man to concieve ; declaring the extremity and the eternity of the torments of hell , which were the just demerit of his sins . then they asked him , whether he had any hopes of escaping this dreadful punishment of hell ? he answered , that he had : they enquired into the grounds of his hopes ? he told them , that he repented of his fault , and hoped god would have mercy on his soul : they asked him , whether he thought his repentance could procure for him a pardon ? he knew no other way . they told him that god was just , and his justice must be satisfied : and there was no way for him to do it , but by undergoing the eternal torments of hell : and did he know no way of satisfying god's justice besides ? and pacifying his anger that was kindled against him ? no , he knew not any , and yet did he hope to be saved ? he answered , yes . they enquired whether ever he had experience of a gracious change wrought in him . herein he could give no account , and yet hoped to be saved . they told him his hopes were unfound , having no good foundation ; and he would find himself disappointed : that it was not his repentance , his tears , and prayers ( though he ought to use them as means ) that would save him , if he fixed the anchor of his hope upon them . that if he hoped to be saved in the condition which for the present he was in , he would certainly be damned : that he must cast away all those groundless hopes he had conceived , and endeavour to despair in himself , that being pricked and pained at heart , through the apprehensions of the wrath of god ready to fall upon him , and seeing no possibility of flying and escapeing , if he looked onely to himself , he might cry out , vvhat shall i do to be saved ? and enquire after a saviour : and then they spake to him of the lord jesus christ , and the way of salvation by him , which before he was sottishly ignorant of , as if he had been brought up in a country of infidels , and not of christians . the words spoken to him by these two ministers , seemed to take little impression upon him whilst they were present ; yet after they were gon , the lord did begin to work , and he did acknowledge to mr. b. that two had been with him ( he knew not their names ) whose words were like arrows shot into his heart , and he did wish he had those words in writing especially one expression of t. v. that he would not be in his condition for ten thousand worlds , did affect and affright him that he said it made his hair stand an end . an account of a discourse betwixt t. d. and t. s. about fourteen dayes after he was prisoner in newgate . vvhen i came to him and saw him in irons , i said , were these fetters for the sake of the gospel , they would be far more precious than chains of gold : but see here the cursed fruits of sin ; thou that shouldst all thy life-time have been a faithful servant of god , hast neglected no time to serve the devil . i asked him how old he was ? he said , sixteen years old : i told him , he was a young man , but an old sinner ; then i began to set my self to bring him to a sense of his sins , and of his miserable and lost estate ; and asked him , whether he belived there was a god ? he answered , yes : and dost thou believe that this god is true ? he said , yes : and taking up the bible , i asked him , dost thou believe that this is the word of god ? he answered , yes : then i told him , according to this word he was a damned wretch , and god had past a sentence of death upon him , and told him plainly , that he should not enter into the kingdom of god , but be a companion of devils in a lake of brimstone to all eternity , ( meaning without repentance , conversion and faith in christ . ) then i turned him to several scriptures , and told him , this was the word by which he must be judged at the barr of god , and be damned or saved according as then he should be found to be , converted or unconverted : the scriptures were as followeth , cor. . . know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of god ? be not deceived ; neither fornicators , nor idolaters , nor adulterers , nor effeminate , nor abusers of themselves with mankind , verse . nor thieves , nor covetous , nor drunkards , nor revilers , nor extortioners , shall inherit the kingdom of god. another scripture i read to him , was gal. . . now the works of the flesh are manifest , which are these , adultery , fornication , vncleanness , lasciviousness , v. . idolatry , witchcraft , hatred , variance , emulations , wrath , strife , seditions , heresies , v. . envyings , murders , drunkenness , revellings , and such like , of the which i tell you before , as i have also told you in time past : that they which do such things , shall not inherit the kingdom of god. the next scripture to the same purpose , was , rev. . . but the fearful and unbelieving , and the abominable , and murderers , and whoremongers , and sorcerers , and idolaters , and all lyars , shall have there part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone , which is the second death . i told him these were the words of the holy , true , and infallible god ; this was the sentence which god had passed upon him , as the desert of those abominable sins which he was guilty of : for these scriptures pointed at several of the sins which he confessed he had lived in , and had committed , as drunkenness , lying , uncleanness , and murther . i cryed , you confess your self guilty of these sins , and that god threatneth you with eternal death , with everlasting torments , and exclusion from his presence and kingdom , not only gods justice but gods truth also , stood betwixt him and eternal happiness ; and told him , that i spake it with reverence that the holy god must be a lyar , or else he dying in the guilt of these sins . must be certainly and eternally damned . i asked him , what do you think ? how will you escape the damnation of hell , and the great wrath that is come ? you have heard what god saith ? what do you say ? what course will you take , and what means will you use , that you may not , according to god's threatning , be cast amongst devils , into eternal devouring flames ? to this , at present , he made no reply , but did often shake his head , and lifted up his eyes towards heaven . next i endeavoured to bring him to a sight and sense of the corruption of his nature , and of the sinfulness of his heart : and told him , all those sins were in his heart , before they were actually committed : and turned him to the saying of christ , in the th of matthew , ver . . for out of the heart proceedeth evil thoughts , murders , adulteries , fornications , thefts , false-witnesses , blasphemies , and told him , that in his repentance for those sins , he must not only lay to heart and be grieved for the outward acts , but lament and bewail the inward principle of corruption , whereby he was so strongly inclined to such horrid abominations , according to the example of david after his sins of adultery and murther , in his confession did follow them up to the rise and original from whence they did spring , psal . . . behold , i was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me , by this time i perceived some workings of heart within him , and that he was in some measure sensible of his lost estate , and by his deportment and carriage , to be cast down , not knowing what to do ; i was unwilling to leave him without some grounds of hope , that it may be , he might be saved ; that there was a possibility that he might obtain pardoning mercy , and be delivered from that great damnation that was due to him for his great transgressions , i began to open to him the readiness of christ , the fulness and sufficiency of christ to save the greatest sinners : and that god ( i hoped , in mercy to his soul ) had sent me , one of his embassadors , to offer him a pardon , and eternal life , if he were but willing to accept of christ upon the terms of the gospel , for his lord and saviour : and did encourage and assure him , upon repentance and faith in christ , there was mercy yet for him , though a murderer , from these scriptures , isa . . . come now and let us reason together , saith the lord , though your sins be as scarlet , they shall be as white as snow ; and though they be as red as crimson they shall be as wool . as i opened to him the great mercy of god in christ toward sinners , dyed in grain , that were sinners of a scarlet colour , that had committed heinous transgressions , he brake forth into tears , and wept plentifully at the tydings of mercy , and possibility that such a one as he might be saved . besides , i turned him to some scripture-promises , that god would certainly forgive his sins , and save his soul , if he could repent , and get faith in christ : such as prov. . . he that confesseth and forsaketh his sin , shall find mercy : and isa . . . let the wicked forsake his way , and the unrighteous man his thoughts ; and let him return unto the lord , and he will have mercy upon him ; and to our god , for he will abundantly pardon . this scripture he diligently heeded , and turned it down in his bible ; and these two scriptures ( the night before he suffered ) amongst others he alledged as the grounds of his hopes of mercy . i also gave him some scripture instances of great sinners that had obtained mercy ; turned him to the example of manasseh , chron. . to that of mary magdalen , luke . , . to that of the jews , acts . , . that were guilty of the blood of christ , that had murdered the son of god , a greater murther than which could not be committed : and yet upon repentance and faith many of them were pardoned and saved : to that of paul , tim. . , , , . shewed him how god had set up paul as a pattern of free-grace , towards great sinners , for the encouragement of such , that ( though guilty of great sins ) afterwards should believe . to all these he hearkned very carefully , and took notice of the places of scripture , for his meditation after i left him . and last of all , i endeavoured to set before him jesus christ , as the only remedy and saviour for his soul ; and shewed him the insufficiency of all his duties , prayers and tears , to get off the guilt of the least sin : that if he could shed a thousand tears of blood for any one vain thought , it would be no better than puddle water to justifie or to save him . much discourse i had with him at this time , besides what is here inserted , and several other times when i went to visit him in newgate ; which i willingly omit , because this book should not swell to too great a bulk . after all , i went to prayer with him : in which duty he was much dissolved into tears : he seemed to me , and his faithful friend that was most with him above all others , to be very earnest in prayer , and with weeping eyes to beg for pardon and for converting grace , and christ to be his saviour ; which was much insisted on in the prayer that was made for him . after which , advising him to consider of what i had said , for that time i took my leave of him . the next time after this discourse , that mr. baker came to him , he enquired how it was with him : he said , what t. d. had said , did very much startle him , that he knew not what to reply , and cryed out very much of the heinousness of his sins , that he should commit that horrid sin of murder : and knew not what to do , for that left a deep impression upon his heart , that god must be a lyar , or else he ( in that condition of impenitency ) must be damned : yet he laid hold upon that promise that was unfolded to him , that if a sinner turned from his wicked ways , god would abundantly pardon : and afterwards read on the verse that followed , isa . . for my thoughts are not your thoughts , neither are your ways my ways , saith the lord. upon which considering , said men cry out for death and vengeance , no mercy to be had from men : but gods thoughts to a repenting sinner were life , for he delighteth not in the death of a sinner . about four or five days after this , he was puzled about his performing of duties , and resting only upon christ for salvation ; for he was tempted , if he performed duties . to rest upon them : or to let them alone , and leave them off , if he must rest only upon christ . at which time . h. b. coming to him , enquired how it was with him now ? and how he hoped to be saved ? he answered by repentance and faith : and i could easily tell you , to satisfie you , that i do repent , and do believe : but truly so to do as i ought , i find it the hardest thing in the world : i do believe , and i do not : i cannot tell how to believe that christ dyed for sinners , so as to throw my self wholly and fully upon him , and to think my tears and prayers will do me no good . but here , reader , we must take notice of the unwearied diligence of the devil , in using all means from time to time , to undo , ruine , and wound the soul of this poor malefactor , who would not forbear to solicit him to sin , after he was cast into prison for former iniquities he had committed ; for we cannot but judge that the devil was loth to loose such a prey as his immortal soul ; when he had brought him to the very mouth and gates of hell , to have him snatched out of his hands by the free-grace of god , the devil did work the more ( because he knew his time to tempt him , was but short ) to blemish and eclipse the gracious work of god upon his heart , and cloud the glory of gods mercy , in saving such a sinner . he was by some former acquaintance visiting of him , ( who shewed their love to a death deserving sinner , no other way then by calling for drink , and desiring him to drink with them ) overcome therewith , and after some former convictions of sin , and his lost estate , did twice relapse into the sin of drunkenness , whereby he caused many to fear , that all this while he had no more than some common workings of the spirit ; and put us to stand , that we knew not what would be the issue of these things : but yet not daring to omit endeavours ( if possible ) as instrumenents under god to save his soul , we did after this , visit him again and again , and set forth unto him the greatness of his sin , that he should sin yet more against the lord , and in his affliction and chains , to provoke the lord to greater wrath against his soul ; with many words to that purpose . after which , his soul was wounded , his heart was pierced , he knew not what to do : he asked , may mercy be had for a back-sliding sinner ? to which were given him some scriptures , where god called to back-sliding sinners to return , and invited them to repent , and promised mercy to them if they did , even after they had done as wickedly as they could : and this was much enlarged upon before him , from jer. . ver . , to . verse . but god that had begun to awaken and to rowse his conscience , that he might set him up as a pattern of free-grace , would not let the devil go thus away with his soul , but brought him to a deep sense of his falling into sin , that he much lamented with many tears the sadness of his state , the misery of his soul , saying what will become of my soul ! my immortal soul ! i cannot think what will become of my soul ! i deserve hell ten thousand times over ; and have i now but one grain of sand left in the glass to work for eternity ? shall i neglect god any longer ? o , i have neglected god too long already ! striking his hand upon his breast , and wringing his hands , and shaking his head , and weeping abundantly , said , lord , what shall i do ? o god , what shall i do ? lord , what will become of me ? if god had dealt justly with me , i had now been in hell , i had been dashed into hell when i murthered that poor innocent creature , i wonder that i am not now in hell ; that such a wretch as i , am not in hell : god hath been pleased to manifest more mercy to me , in sparing of me , and affording me so long time for repentance ; but i have neglected time , and relapsed into drunkenness and vain talking , time after time . i thought this place ( meaning the hole in newgate , ) hell upon earth , and did account it a heaven to be among other prisoners : but now god hath tryed me , whether sin will be bitter and displeasing to me , or not ; i have this day ( being the lords day ) been among the prisoners , and they asked me to play at cards : but instead of complying with them , i reproved them , and told them , for my part i had profaned sabbaths enough already , i have but a little time to work for my soul , and i ought not to neglect time now ; that they likewise ( he told them ) if they rightly considered , had something else to do , and striking his hand upon his breast , with much earnestness he cryed out with tears , now , now i find that god hath been at work upon my soul ; he hath , i am sure , been at work : for now i see so much evil , and taste such bitterness in sin , that i am not so much troubled that i am to dye , nor so much troubled that i am in danger of hell , as to think i should so dishonour god , that i should so offend so gracious and merciful a god , and spurn against all his mercies . oh my soul , my immortal soul ! i know not what will become of it to all eternity . it is the grief of my very soul , that i have neglected time as i have done : now i see so much need of a christ , and so much preciousness and excellency in christ , that if the greatest king in the world should come and throw his crown at my foot , and tell me i should enjoy it , and all the glory of it for millions of years , and should have my liberty presently , and should say , but it must be without christ , i would sooner chose to dye this moment ; nay , to be racked to pieces by ten thousand deaths , or burn ten years together , so i may have a christ , i speak freely from my heart , so far as i know my heart ; and now i find it is not only the devil 's tempting me , hath brought me to this , but this cursed , wretched , devilish heart of mine within . it is within me , so that it was in me before it was committed by me : i deserved hell ten thousand times over , before i committed this horrid sin : well , now i am resolved , i will pray as much as i can , and weep and wrestle with god , as if i were to have heaven for it : but when i have done all , i will deny all ; for my prayers and tears cannot save me : and i will fully and wholly throw my self at the feet of christ ; and if i am damned , i will be damned there . and more he spake to this purpose in mr. baker's hearing . about three days after , mr. baker coming to him , asked him how it was with him . he told him , that the devil was very busie with him , and did solicit him grievously with his temptations , perswading him to have thoughts of escaping : these things ( said he ) hindred my minding of god one part of the day ; the other part of the day the devil fills me with drowsiness , that i can neither pray , nor read , nor perform any duty , nor mind any one that prays with me . sometimes he tempts me to delay , telling me that it is time enough for me to think of repentance when i am condemned ; and , that god is a merciful god ; and sometimes he tempted me to despair , telling me that it was impossible that so monstrous a sinner as i had been , should be saved . but blessed be god that he made me to think that these were but the devils temptations , although i have been sadly hurried with them for some days : but that which did most fill me with terror , was the frequent fears of the devil 's appearing personally to me ; which did so exceedingly trouble me in prayer , so that i could say nothing when i kneeled down , but was fain to set the candle down before me , and durst not look one way nor other , for fear i should see him ; and my thoughts have been so vain many times , when you have been reading to me , that i have scarce heard a word of what you said . a discourse betwixt h. b. and t. s. prisoner in newgate , after some friends went away dissatisfied , fearing he had not a sense of his sin , &c. h. b. asking him how it was with him ? he replied , it is the grief of my soul that i should be no more affected : i think i have the most rocky , stony heart in the world : if ever there was an heart of iron , i have one , it is not fit to be called an heart . to have others come and pray with me , and instruct me , and see how they are affected with my condition , and yet i not at all affected with my own condition ; oh it is the grief of my soul to see it so ! and yet as soon as ministers and good people are gone , and i walk about and consider , oh it melts me , and breaketh my heart in pieces to think , i can mourn for sin , and grieve for sin no more , when gods people are with me ! because it causeth them to think that i am not sensible of my sin ; though blessed be god i am in some measure sensible of the evil of my sins ; and it is the grief of my soul to think how i have dishonoured god , and abused his mercy , and spurned against his mercy and patience . after this , they both spent some time in prayer , and h. b. asked him , how it was with him now ? he said , i find so much sweetness in prayer . although i cannot find god loveth me , that to think i am not cursing and swearing as others are , but be confessing my sin , my very tears trickle down my cheeks for joy : sometimes i find my heart so dead and dull in duty , that i know not what to say in prayer : at other times i find my heart so full , and so much affected in duty , that i could wish i might never rise off my knees . the night before the sessions , h. b. coming to him , asked him if it was not terrible to him to think of appearing before the barr of men ? he answered , methinks when i consider seriously of it , what a light poor thing mans barr is in comparison of gods barr , yet mans barr is enough to daunt one , to hear them say , take him gaoler , tye him up : but to appear before gods barr , who knoweth all the sins that ever i committed ; he saw all my secret sins ; and for god to say , take him gaoler , take him devil , shut him up in the dungeon of hell : oh! that is enough . i believe , to make the stoutest heart in the world to tremble : for there is no recalling that sentence ; and i believe there are many go out of this prison , as i saw formerly three that went to be hanged , and they were almost drunk , and did sing all the way they went : but oh , their note was soon changed , when they came to stand before gods barr. the morning before he went to the sessions , h. b. and the prisoner spent some time in prayer , the prisoner in his prayer did earnestly beg of god that he would keep him from those temptations he might be exposed unto by bad company : after this he was taken down to the sessions house , but was not called because the jury of middlesex did not sit that day . at night h. b. came to him again , and asking how it was with him ; he answered , he found it no easie thing to be a true christian : i thought before i came to prison , that reading a chapter now and then , and saying the lords prayer , and the creed at night when i went to bed , would have saved me , though many times i was asleep before i had half done : but now i find it no such easie thing to get to heaven ; nay , i find it the hardest thing in the world , for my prayers and tears and duties , if i could fall upon my knees and never rise off from them while i live , they would not save me ; for all this is but my duty : but i now know there is merit enough in the blood of christ to save me ; and he did earnestly beg of god in prayer , that god would wash his soul in the blood of christ , and blot out all his sins out of the book of his remembrance , and turn them behind his back , though i as earnestly beg they might be all spread before my face , that i might have a more humble and throughly broken heart for them : lord , one drop of that blood is enough to wash away all my sins : and so after some conference , h. b. left him for that night , who heard from one that was with him that night , that he spent that time most in prayer and reading . the second morning , in the time of the sessions , mr. baker , that was a careful friend for the good of his soul , went to the sessions house , where he found him well , and in good frame , and continued with him for the space of two or three hours that morning ; after which time mr. baker was from him to hear the tryal of the person that was arraigned , and afterward executed for the fire upon the house burnt down in mincing-lane , for the space of half an hour , or thereabout ; in which time , in company of other prisoners , he was much distempered with something that he had drank amongst them , which did take from him his understanding , that he was not his own man ; we judge ( that though this did cast a blemish upon the profession that he had made after he came to newgate ) it was not a voluntary act , but some surprisal or design of the other upon him ; partly , because the quantity was far less than what at other times he could drink without any disturbance to his head . a friend also heard hannah the strumpet that enticed him to his former wickedness , say , others have made you drunk to day , but i will make you drunk to morrow . but afterwards he was afraid to drink in their company , but rather denied to take what was necessary for his refreshment . the prisoners , were much against his accusing of that harlot ; and did much perswade him to take something to chear his spirits ; and when t. d. was with him on saturday before he dyed , he charged him with his sin , which had caused such a blot upon all the profession he had made , and what great cause he had to be humbled before god ; and desired him , to tell him , as a dying man , whether it was his voluntary act and delight in excessive drinking , or no ? and he did prosefs , that he knew it was not the quantity that he had drank , which was not near so much as at other times he did use without distempering of himself however , god was pleased to make him taste the bitterness of that cup in that he had given such occasion to sinners to speak evil of the wayes of god , and beating his hands ( being returned to himself , ) upon the stones , cryed out , oh that i should offend god! and though he did much lament the scandal , yet he always said , that he looked not upon it as a sin of drunkenness , but a circumvention ; or to use his own words , that something was put into the drink , to distemper his head . on saturday during the sessions , he was arraigned , and pleaded guilty , confessing with many tears and wringing his hands , that he , through the instigation of the devil , and enticement of that wretched creature ( meaning the harlot ) had committed that bloody fact , which was such an horror to his conscience , that he would not do it again for ten thousand worlds : his carriage and confession was such , that he much moved the honourable bench and jury , and most of the beholders . on monday next he received his sentence of death ; after which time he was with the other condemned prisoners , and did pray with them four times a day , and read to them , and sung psalms with them . after the execution of the rest . he had time given or procured him by the honourable sheriff of london , for some days , which he improved to the great advantage of his soul. on friday night he uttered these expressions , in company with h. b. being the day that the other prisoners were executed . i find , saith he , so much sweetness and delight , and pleasure in gods ways , and so much folly in the ways of sin , that if there were no heaven to reward , nor any hell to punish , i could not but love the ways of god , and the people of god : oh , it is so sweet to be in company with them , praying and conversing with them , over what is in hearing others swear , and curse , that i account it as great a mercy as any almost , that i may be in their company . o methinks it is a heaven to me to be with god's ministers and people : and prayer now is so sweet , that i grudge the time always when i am off from my knees , or go down to the grate . now there is nothing in the world i prize like christ ; one christ above ten thousand worlds : now i do repent , and i do believe through mercy : it is the lords work ; but i earnestly beg and pray for a more humble , and a more broken heart , and a more through sense of sin , and a greater sorrow for it , and beg that god would enable me to come to him , to believe in him ; lord , saith he , faith is thy work , repentance is thy work ; do thou enable me to repent ; nay , thou hast enabled me to repent , and i do from the very bottom of my heart , lord , as far as i know my own heart : i repent that i should offend so gracious , and so merciful a god as thou art , lord ; and faith is thy work . lord , saith he , hast thou not said , no man can come to thee , except the father draw him . draw me , o lord , and i shall run to thee ; enable me to believe . lord , and i shall believe ; nay , i do believe , lord , that jesus christ his blood was not shed in vain . did christ die for nothing , lord ? did he not die to save all repenting and believing sinners of whom i am chief ? on saturday at night , in company with mr. baker , he discoursed thus . oh! my dear friend . taking me by the hand , come hither , saith he , and opening the coffin , look here is the ship , saith he , in which i must lanch out into the ocean of eternity : and is it not a terrible thing ( saith he ) to see one's own coffin and burying-cloaths , when at the same time i am as well as you ? do you think it would not daunt you ? to go to the gallows , to have the halter , and to dye there ; were this for the sake of the gospel , i should not care , were it ten hundred times a worse death : but to suffer this cursed death for such horrid sins , o this is sad ! why , said i , you have a greater mercy in some respect , than those that dye in their beds ; for they are full of sickness and pain , and cannot so well mind repentance as you , who are well , and have nothing else to mind . ah sir , saith he , their sins are of a far less nature than mine , and so they do not need so much repentance as mine do : my dying for such horrid sins , makes my repentance to be so much the more hard . o , saith he , i believe it , it is a hard work to dye : i could carry it out as bravely as any , ( do you think i could not ? ) but to consider , that as i die , and am sentenced from god's barr so i must be for ever , immediately either be everlastingly happy , or everlastingly miserable : to consider this , would make a stout heart to tremble : those poor creatures that were here the other night ( meaning the other condemned prisoners ) they know now what it is to be in an eternal state , and if they are gone to hell , o lord , how miserably are they disappointed , who hoped for to have gone to heaven , and are sent from thy barr to endless burning ! lord , what a mercy is it that i have a little time longer left , let it be improved to thy glory and let my soul live , and i shall praise thee . the last lords day , he lived , he desired to be alone , and spent it in wrestling with god by prayers , and in other duties in order to his preparation for his great change by death , that then he expected the next day ; in which duties he found so much of god , that he had some fore-tasts of the joys of heaven ; and when we asked him what of god he had found that day ; he replyed , that he had such pleasure and delight in mourning for sin , and praying unto god , that he was loath to come off from his knees . at night there were some ministers that sat up with him , and spent that night in prayer with him , and for him , and in conference ; on monday morning came t. d. to him before day ( thinking it was his last day ; for an order was sent on friday for his execution on monday ) and said to him , thomas , how is it with you now ? your last day begins to dawn . he said , blessed be god i am not afraid to dye , because i hope i shall go to jesus christ . after some time in prayer for him , we desired him to spend some time in that duty ! which he performed with so much affection , and earnest pleading with god , that all the company were exceedingly melted , and their hearts beyond ordinary measure warmed and raised , that the room did ring with sighs and groans ; and there was such a mighty presence of the spirit poured out upon him , and on those that joyned with him , that we do not remember the time when ever we had experience of the like . in which prayer , after the confession of his sins , he begged earnestly for pardon , and for an interest in christ ; saying , o lord , wilt thou let me dye without a christ ? shall i leave this world , before thou smilest upon my soul ? thou hast promised pardon , and mercy , and salvation to those that do repent , and to those that do believe : lord , i do repent , and do believe , if i know my own heart , i do repent , i do believe ; lord i roll my self upon thy son , i cast my self at his foot for mercy . thou wouldst be just , if thou dost damn me ; but thou hast pardoned others , and it will be to the praise of thy free-grace to pardon me . lord , shall those prayers that have been made , and all those tears that have been shed for me , and all those instructions which have been given me , be all in vain ? with many other expressions in that prayer , which wonderfully affected the hearts of those that were with him ; that afterwards we looked upon one another , wondring at the grace of god towards him , that one so wicked all his days , so young , ( being sixteen years old ) so lately acquainted with the ways of god , should have such a spirit of prayer poured out upon him : after this , he prayed with more life and fervency than before ; and the nearer he came to his end , the more we perceived god was ripening him for glory . after this we took our leave of him , not knowing but that was the last day ; for the cart stood below , and the coffin fetched down , and some of the honourable sheriffs of londons men , came into the prison : but the sheriff of middlesex having not notice to be ready , his execution was deferred till wednesday following . reader , here take notice , that the report that the reason why he was not executed on monday , was because he was drunk , is an abominable falshood ; for to our knowledge that were with him , he did not eat nor drink that morning . when we went up to him again , we told him we perceived he was not to dye that day , giving him caution , not to think there was any pardon intended for him : and one came from the sheriff to acquaint him with the reason of the delay of his execution . when his coffin was carried up to him again , one asked what he thought , and what were the workings of his heart when he saw his coffin brought back ? he said he was much troubled , and it daunted him to see it ; for he could willingly have dyed that day to go to christ . on monday in the afternoon he had an excessive pain in his teeth , ( as we judge occasioned by his leaving off his cloaths , and putting on some thin apparel to dye in ) and that evening he expressed great willingness to dye and leave the world. he said , i see and feel so much excellency in christ , that he is so pure in grace , pure in holiness , pure in all things . lord , i count it an hell to be upon earth , i so long to be where i might enjoy thee : and he spent some time in prayer , ( notwithstanding his pain ) with much affection , wherein he said , the pain of the teeth was great , but the pain of hell was greater . on tuesday , the day before he dyed , after some time spent in prayer both by him and h. b. being full of joy , he expressed himself thus : o my dear friend , what a welcome shall i give you when you come to heaven , and say to you , come see , come see , this is the glory that you told me of : but all that you ever told me , was nothing to what i have found : o what a place is this ! o how shall we love one another then ! sure it cannot be , but heaven must be a glorious place , where god , christ , and angels be . the night before he dyed , a minister came to thomas savage , and after other serious discourse , sor satisfaction of a christian friend that had seen him before , he demanded of him , what were now the grounds of his hopes of salvation ? he made this reply , god both in infinite mercy made me deeply sensible of great sins , and not only of them , but of the vileness of my heart and nature , and god hath made me to abhor my self for my sins , and i hope truly to repent of them : for that which hath been the delight of my soul , is now as bad as hell ; and god hath given me to see , that all my own prayers and tears , and all the prayers of all the good people that come to me , are not able to save . a christ alone ; i throw my self at the feet of christ for mercy , and if i perish , i will perish there . i feel longings and breathings after christ , and love him more than my life : i long to be with him ; and i would not be to live any longer : this world is a little hell because of sin . i fear not death , for i hope the sting of it is taken out for me . this last night before his death , he desired us to sit up with him , in order to his better preparation for the great work he had to do the next day , that we might wrestle with god on his behalf , that when death approacheth so near unto him , he might have some nearer accesses unto god into his soul , that when pale death stared him in the face , he might see gods smiling countenance , which opportunity we readily embraced , and spent the former part of the night in prayer , till two of the clock in the morning ; about which time he desired us to go down into the lodge , that he might have some part of the night for prayer and meditation alone , and to discourse a while with his friend mr. baker , to whom he most of all did open his very heart , and spake more freely to , than to any other ( whom for that reason we left with him ) and when we were gone down , his friend being with him , who told us afterwards , he fell into admiration , and said , what a prodigy am i ? what a wonder of mercy that god should encline the hearts of his ministers to come and pray with me ! and pour out their souls in prayer thus for me ! for me a murtherer , for me a drunkard , for me so vile and sinful ! well , i cannot but love god ; and though i go to hell , yet i will love god for his goodness and graciousness to me already manifested in this world : yea , though i should be damned for my sin , yet i could and would love god. what , would they venture to come and pray with me a murtherer ? how did they know but i might have murthered some of them ? pray for me ! wrestle for me ; well , i know god loves ; i am sure god loves me . when he was in prayer , some of us heard him say , now lord i am coming to thee , thou art mine , and christ is mine ; and what need i be afraid of death ? lord , give me some sense and some sign of thy love , that when my soul shall be separated from my body , it may be received into glory . afterwards when he looked upon his cloaths he had put on to dye in , said , what have i got on my dying-cloaths ; dying-cloaths did i say ? they are my living-cloaths ; the cloaths out of which i shall go into eternal glory ; they are the best cloaths that ever i put on . about four of the clock in the morning ; we went up to him again , full of expectation what we would say to us , and what we should hear from him ; and t. d. stood behind him , and took his expressions as he spake them , from his own mouth : and first , he told us , i account it a great mercy that god hath shewed me the evil of sin , before he cast me into hell : sin hath not only brought my body to the grave , but my soul in danger of everlasting burning . the lord will have mercy on me , i hope ; i am filled with joy , i am no more afraid to die , than to stand in this place , the lord make me thankful . the lord hath been working on my soul , for it was not i that could pray , nor refrain from company , nor delight in any thing that is good : i have cause to bless god that ever i was taken , ( and this we have often heard him say ) for if i had escaped , i had gone on in my sin , and might have lost my soul for ever . one asked him , which he thought was worse , hell or sin ? using some gesture of body ; said , hell is very dreadful , but sin is worse then hell . because sin brings mens souls to hell , and sin is that which offendeth god. one asked him what he thought of heaven ? and he with a smiling countenance said , heaven ! it cannot be , but heaven must be an excellent place , for it is an holy place . we spake to him concerning his coffin that was by him , whether it did not trouble and amaze him to have it in his sight : he replyed , with all my soul i coul go into my coffin : oh ! it is a comfortable place ( he spake it with joy ) i can comfortably dye : i have found such a deal of joy and comfort , that i would not for a world have been without it . we enquired whether death did not affright him ; morning light will presently appear : he answered , death indeed did trouble me , but now not at all : i long for day , i am not daunted at death . dye , it is nothing : this life is nothing : but to dye eternally and to loose god , and christ , and heaven , that is death . hell-tormens is not so much , as to be shut from the presence of god. alas ! who would not dye this death to go to jesus christ ? when my body is upon the gibbet , my soul shall be carried by angels into heaven . my heart is so drawn out after god , that i could leave this world to be with him . this world is nothing , those that have the pleasures of it , have nothing : i desire to dye , because i long to be with christ , there i shall never sin more : there is no sin , but joy , where i shall sing hallelujahs and praise to god. we askt what he thought of the company of gods people ; for he had now experience of company good and bad : he said , i had rather be here , ( meaning the hole in newgate ) with bread and water with such company , then to have the company of wicked persons , with the greatest dainties . it was wicked company that drew me away . i account it the greatest mercy to have the prayers of gods people for me : had i had my deserts , i had been now in hell , where i should have had no prayers , no instructions : god doth love me , for he hath inclined the hearts of his people and ministers to pray for me , and their prayers have prevailed . being ask'd what promises he found to be his support against the guilt of sin , now he was to dye , he alledged these , repeating the words himself . whosoever will , let him come and drink of the waters of life freely : and , he that confesseth and for saketh his sin , shall find mercy : and , let the wicked for sake his way , and the unrighteous man his thoughts , and let him return unto the lord , and he will have mercy on him : and to our god , for he will abundantly pardon . this word ( abundantly pardon ) did often refresh his soul , i have sinned abundantly , but god will pardon abundantly . after these , he mentioned another , viz , this is a faithfull saying , and worthy of all acceptation , that jesus christ came to save sinners , of whom i am chief : and said , i do relie and throw my self upon jesus christ : i do believe there is merit enough in him , and all sufficiency in him to save me : it is nothing that i can do will save me . he complained , that it was the grief of his soul that he could love god no more , and love christ no more for his mercy toward him , in giving him so much time , and so many helps , in sending so many ministers to instruct him ; but added , when several ministers had been with me , i threw of all , and returned to sin , and did as vainly as any : i could not have repented and believed of my self , it is the work of god. he often said , i fear not death , it was nothing with him to die and go to christ . he often said , that he had rather die immediately , having an interest in christ than to live a thousand years in this world , in the enjoyment of all the pleasures of it , without christ . and that he had found more pleasure and delight in the ways of god since he came into prison , than ever he found in all the ways of sin . he confessed his sins , saying , he first neglected and profaned the sabbath ; and said , this was the beginning of all his wickedness , that on the sabbath morning he studied what company to go into , in what place of sin he might spend the sabbath , then to wicked society , then to ale-houses , then to brothel-houses , then to murther , then to theft , then to newgate , and yet at last he hoped to heaven . he lamented , saying , i have striven to dishonour god , and to run into sin : oh that i should spend so much time in serving of the devil , and now have but a little moment of time to spend in the service of god , and to the glory of god. this discourse being ended , we desired him now on his last morning before he went into eternity , to pray with us , and he willingly consented , and his prayer was as followeth , being taken from his mouth by thomas doe-little , that also took in writing his preceding discourse , verbatim . the prayer of tho. savage in newgate , with those that sat up with him the night before his execution . o most merciful and ever blessed lord god , i beseech thee , o lord , look down upon me , with an eye of pity , if it be thy blessed will : it is thy infinite mercy that i am on this side the grave , and out of hell : o lord , i have deserved to be cast into torments to all eternity . how have i offended thee , and run on in fin , and thought i could never do enough to abuse thy mercy ! pardon the sins that i have committed , wash that blood from off my soul ; let not me perish to eternity . it was an horrid crime to shed innocent blood ; pardon that sin ; o lord , let the blood of christ cry more for mercy than the blood of that creature cry for for vengeance . o lord , thou hast been merciful to me in giving me time to repent ; for ought i know her soul is undone for ever : lord forgive me , lord forgive me , i knew not what i did . forgive my sabbath-breaking , lying , cursing , forgive my drunkenness , blot them out of the book of thy remembrance , turn them away behind thee . lord , i have repented of them from my soul that ever i should offend a god so good , and so merciful , and gracious . i do believe on thee , and do wholly throw my self upon thee . i acknowledge it would be just in thee to damn my soul , but it will be infinite mercy in thee to save me ; and what free grace will it be in thee to pardon me ! it is dreadful to lose the body , but how dreadful will it be to lose the soul to all eternity ! lord , let it not be in vain that i had so many instructions : o let me not go down to hell , let my soul bless and praise thy name for ever , for what thou hast done for me ; thou hast been at work upon my heart , and thou hast helped me to repent , the lord be praised . lord , i desire to be more and more humble under the sence of my sins , for they are dreadful : there are many souls that have not committed those sins , that are now in hell , o what a mercy is it that i am not in those flames , in those devouring flames ! lord , as thou hast spared me here , spare me to eternity . let not my soul perish . lord , reveal thy self unto me , make known thy love unto me , tell me my sins are pardoned ; tell me that i have an interest in christ , before i go hence , and be seen no more ; that i might leave some testimony behind me , that i might tell thy ministers what thou hast done for me , and tell thy people what thou hast done for my soul. lord , this will not be onely for my satisfaction , but for thy glory : blessed lord , pardon the sins that i am guilty of , and take away this cursed base heart of mine , break this rocky stony heart in pieces , these sins of murder and drunkenness , &c. were in my heart before : i thought no eye did see me commit those sins , but thou didst see me : lord , turn my heart to thee , and take away this heart of stone , and take away this cursed nature ; for it was this cursed nature that brought me to these sins , and to this end ; and i was in danger of loosing my soul to all eternity : but lord , though i a great sinner , christ is a great saviour , he is able to save me from my sins , though they be never so great : i do believe , lord , i speak freely from my heart , so far as i know my heart , i do believe : it is my grief i can sorrow no more for my sins , which have been the cause of offending thee so long , and so much . one drop of thy blood sprinkled upon my soul , will pardon all my sins . lord , cross the black line of my sins , with the red line of thy blood : i am not able to answer for one vain thought , much less for all my horrid crimes , lord , save my immortal soul : that i might sing praise to thee to all eternity . thou hast pardoned manasseh , that was a great sinner , and mary , magdalen , and paul , that were great sinners , and the thief upon the cross ; and thy mercies are as great , thy mercy and thy love to repenting sinners is not shortned ; though my sins be great , yet thy mercies are greater then my sins : lord be with me in my death , then let me have some comfortable assurance of thy love unto my soul , of the pardon of my sins : do thou be my god and my guide now , and to all eternity , amen . this prayer he put up with much earnestness , with great brokenness of heart for sin , that all that joyned with him , were exceedingly affected , and blessed god for the spirit of prayer , they discerned god had so plentifully poured out upon him . after we had some other discourse with him , we took our leave of him , telling him we purposed to see him again at the place of execution . after two or three hours , when the time of his going from newgate drew near , we were willing to return to see him once more there : and the rather , because one minister that had not yet been with him , was desirous to visit him ; and then again after some few words with him , we asked him to go to prayer again once more , saying , now this will be the last time that we shall pray with you in this place . and he did perform this duty with great liveliness , that now he excelled himself , and the nearer he came to his end , the more fervently we perceived he prayed : but we took notice , that in this last duty in newgate he was much in praising god , and blessing god for his mercy to him , to our great astonishment . after a few words , when this duty was over , we took some of us our final farewell of him : and he , expressing his thanks to gods people for their prayers for him , and to the ministers for their love and pains with him , was commended by us to the grace of god , saying ' thomas , the lord be with you , the lord of heaven be with you , o the lord of mercy help you , and have compassion on you . this morning he expressed himself to his friend h. b. thus : oh my friend , we cannot tell how glorious a place heaven is : but if once i get thither , and could drop down a letter to you , and tell you of the glorious things i there shall find ; how would it rejoyce your heart ? and to his friend , parting with him said , i know god loveth me , and that i am going to the kingdom of heaven . the last speech of thomas savage at the place of his execution at ratcliff . gentlemen , here i am come to dye a cursed and ignominious death , and i most justly deserve it , for i have murthered a poor innocent creature , and for ought i know , have not only murthered her body , but if god had no more mercy of her soul , then i had of her body , she is undone to all eternity : so that i deserve not only death from men , but damnation from god. i would have you all that look upon me , take warning by me : the first sin i began with , was sabbath-breaking , whereby i got acquaintance with bad company , and so we went to the ale-house , from the ale-house to the bawdy house , there i was perswaded to rob my master , as also to murther this poor innocent creature , for which i am come to this shameful end . i was drawn aside i say , by ill company , pray take heed of that , for it will not only bring your bodies to the grave , but your soul to hell : have a care of neglecting the sabbaths , it is that which hath not only brought my body to the grave , but my soul in danger of eternal torments . and try the ways of god , for the lord be praised i have found so much of excellency and sweetness in gods ways , that i bless god that ever i came into a prison . and now , though i am leaving this world , i know i shall go to a better place : for i have repented from my soul for all my sins ; not because i am to dye for them , but to see that i should do that whereby i should deserve hell ten thousand times over , and so dishonour god. now the lord have mercy on my soul. the prayer of thomas savage at the place of execution . o most merciful , and for ever blessed lord god , i beseech thee look down upon my poor immortal soul , which now is taking its flight into another world , which now is ready to appear before thy barr . lord , i beseech thee prepare me for it , and receive my soul into the arms of thy mercy ; and though my body die , and i come to die this shameful death , yet let my soul live with thee for ever . lord pardon all the horrid sins that i have committed , the sabbath breaking , lying , swearing , cursing , vncleanness , and all the rest of my sins that ever i have committed . lord , give me a new heart , and give me faith that i may lay hold and throw my self fully and wholly upon thee : enable me , o lord , give me saving repentance , that i may come to thy bar , and thence be recieved into glory : let me not be a prey to devils to all eternity : let not my soul perish ; though my body die , let my soul live . lord let me not be shut out from thy presence , and let not all the prayers , and tears , and counsels , and instructions , that have been made and shed on my behalf , be in vain ; pity my poor soul . lord , my immortal soul ; lord , it would be just with thee to cast me into everlasting burning . i have been a great sinner , but christ is a great saviour . o lord , thou hast pardoned great sinners , and thou canst do it lord ; and lord , wilt thou not do it ! lord , let me not be a fire-brand in hell , and a prey to devils to all eternity , let me not then be shut up with devils and damned souls , when my soul takes its flight into another world. lord , i have repented for what i have done , from the bottom of my heart i have repented : and lord if thou wouldst damn me , thou wouldst be just : but how infinitely more would it be for the glory of thy free grace , to save such a sinner as i am : good lord pour down thy spirit upon my soul . o tell me that i have an interest in christs blood , good father , good lord , before i go hence lord i am willing , i am willing to leave this world : i can prize thee above all : there is nothing i can prize like to thee ; wilt thou not recieve my soul ? recieve it into thy arms , and say , come thou blessed of my father ; good father for jesus christs sake pity my poor soul , for pities sake . lord , it is not my prayers or tears will save my soul ; but if ever i am saved , it must be through free-grace , and the blood of christ ; and if there be not enough in that blood , lord , i am willing to be damned . lord , look down upon my poor soul ; and though i have been such a sinner , thou art able to pardon me , and wash me , apply one drop of thy blood to my soul , lord , my immortal soul , that is more worth then ten thousand worlds . it is true , lord , i confess i have taken a great deal of pleasure in sin , i have run on in sin , and could not invent where to go on thy day , and was wont to study into what place , and into what company i might go upon the sabbath day : forgive me , lord wash me , receive me into thy arms , o lord : oh for one glimp of mercy : lord if thou wilt please to reveal thy self to me i shall tell it to all that behold me . it is a mercy , lord , that i am not in hell , and that thou showest me the bitterness of sin before i come into hell : it is a mercy , lord , that i have had the prayers , converse , and instructions of so many of thy ministers and people . lord , recieve my soul , one smile , lord , one word of comfort for jesus sake . oh , let me not go out of this world , let not my soul perish : though i killed a poor innocent creature , lord , deal not with me as i dealt with her ; but pity me , pity me for jesus christ sake , amen . one asked him in the cart , well now , thomas , how is it with your soul ? what sense have you of god's love ? he answered , sir ▪ i thank god through infinite mercy , i find god loves me , and that now i can chearfully go . after his cap was over his eyes , he used these expressions . lord jesus recieve my spirit . lord one smile . good lord one word of comfort for christs sake : though death make a separation between my soul and body , let nothing separate between thee and my soul to all eternity . good lord hear me . good father hear me . o lord jesus receive my soul . vvhilst he did thus pathetically express himself to the people , especially to god in prayer , there was a great moving upon the affections of those who stood by , and many tears were drawn from their eyes by his melting speeches . all this was the more remarkable in this young man , being under sixteen years of age when he was first apprehended . after he was turned off the cart , he strugled for a while , heaving up his body , which a young man ( his friend ) perceiving , to put him quickly out of his pain , struck him with all his might on the breast several times together , then no motion was perceived in him ; and hanging some considerable time after that , and as to all outward appearance dead , insomuch as one said to another friend of his , namely mr. b. now he is in eternity ; and the people beginning to move away , the sheriff commanded him to be cut down , and being receiv'd in the arms of some of his friends , he was conveyed by them into a house not far distant from the place of execution , where being laid upon a table , unto the astonishment of the beholders , he began to stir and breath , and rattle in his throat , and it was evident his life was whole in him ; from the table he was carried to a bed in the same house , where he breathed more strongly , and opened his eyes and his mouth ( though his teeth were set before ) and offered to speak , but could not recover the use of his tongue ; but his reviving being known within an hour the officers came to the house where he was , and conveyed him to the place of execution again , and hung him up again , until he was quite dead , whence he was carried by his mourning friends to islington , where he now sleepeth in the bed of his grave , until the morning of the resurrection , from whence , though buried in dishonour , he will then be raised in glory . thus you have had the relation of one that was but young in years , but old in wickedness : you have read of his sabbath-breaking prophaness , swearing , lying , stealing , drunkenness , fornication , and the like sins , which he confessed himself frequently and deeply guilty of : and to compleat and fill up the measure of his sins he added to the rest the horrid sin of murther . i believe you have scarcely heard of sin grown up to such maturity in so short a time as it did in him , who when he was imprisoned , was under sixteen years of age . and what could any expect should be the issue and product of sin arriv'd to such perfection , but death and wrath , and the vengeance of eternal fire ? but behold here an instance of free-grace ! his sins did abound , but gods grace did super abound . sometimes god doth sow the seed of grace in the heart that is most unlikely to receive it ; and reapeth great glory to his name by pardoning great sins . vve read that when ephraim was bent upon wickedness , so that a man could hardly expect the restraining of gods anger any longer , but that it should kindle in his breast , and break forth in a flame , to devour a people so rebellious ; yet the lord expresseth himself in a way of wonderful mercy and astonishing free-grace , hos . . , . how shall i give thee up , o ephraim ? how shall i make thee as admah ? how shall i set thee as zeboim ? my heart is turned within me : ( not against ephraim , but towards him ) my repentings ( not mine anger ) are kindled together , i will not execute the fierceness of mine anger . and the reason is not drawn from any thing in ephraim to move him , but only from himself , for i am god and not man. if one man had been so provoked by another , and it had lain in the power of his hand to have avenged himself on his enemy , surely he would not have spared or shewn any favour . but because he is god and not man , whose thoughts are not like our thoughts , and whose mercies are not like our mercies , but further removed above them , then the heavens are removed above the earth : in comparison with whose mercies , our most tender mercies are not less then cruelty : therefore because he is god and not man , and herein would act like himself , he hath pity , and sheweth favour unto ephraim . take another instance in israel , who had made god to serve with his sins , and wearied him with his iniquities , having pressed god herewith , as a cart is pressed with sheaves , and nothing but vengeance could rationally be expected , and that god should say as at another time ( for god doth not shew such favour to all , and at all times , that the freeness of it might be the more evident ) ah , i will ease me of my adversaries , and avenge me on my enemies , and i , even i , am he that will make such audacious sinners see , and feel , what an evil and fearful thing it is to affront and provoke me : yet read how graciously god pardoned israel , declaring the ground of it to be only for the glory of his own name , isa . . . i , even i , am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake , and will not remember thy sins . surely no motive from this young mans person , or any good previous disposition ( he being so exceeding vitiated by such defiling sins ) could in the least encline god to have mercy upon him ; but the motive was taken from himself and his own bowels . he had mercy on him , only because he would have mercy , and compassion , only because he would have compassion . if some , yea many , are passed by , who have escaped the more gross pollutions which are in the world , through lust , and never committed such god-provoking sins as you read in the narrative that he committed , but for lesser faults are punished everlastingly , when god hath had mercy upon him , and thrown the skirt of his love over him , and wrought a gracious change in him , we must say with our saviour , mat. . . even so father , because it so seemed good in thy sight . it is through free grace that any are saved ; but in the salvation of such a one , god hath demonstrated the exceeding riches of his grace towards him , through jesus christ . eph. . . let not any from this example of gods free grace , presume to continue and indulge themselves in a sinful course , hoping to obtain mercy at the last , as he hath done , and so turn god's glory into shame , and his grace into wantonness : for it is a rare example , hardly again to be parallel'd : will a man run himself through the body , because some have been healed of such wounds ? will a man drink down poyson , because some by an antidote have expelled the poyson , and escaped with life ? is not presumption the bane and ruine of millions of souls ? may not god cut you off in the act of some of your sins , and not give you time for repentance ? and if life doth continue , may not he deny you the grace of repentance ? doth not custom and continuance in sin , harden your heart , and fasten you in satans chains ? hath not god threatned , that such who cry peace , peace , to themselves , though they walk after the imagination of their own hearts , to add drunkenness to thirst : that he will not spare them , but his anger and his jealousie shall smoak against them , and that he will blot out their name from under heaven , deut. . , . the great improvement which should be made of gods gracious dealings with this young man , is for all to admire god's free-grace ; and especially for poor distressed souls that are upon the brink of hell in their own apprehensions , and are ready to despair of gods mercy because of the greatness of their sins , to take encouragement from hence , and hopes that there may be mercy in store for them : they have not been murderers , whatever their sins have not been , and if a murderer hath been received into favour , why may not they hope ? let such think with themselves , that it is free grace hath saved him , and let them sue out at the throne of grace , for the same grace which is freely tendred unto them . a recollection out of this narrative of those passages ; from which in charity we do conclude that the work of grace was really wrought in his soul : or the evidences of t. s. of his title to eternal happiness . . he bitterly lamented his sins , and loathed himself for them , especially as they were against a good and gracious god , according to psal . . . and luk. . . . he was deeply sensible of , and grieved for the corruption of his heart , from whence his actual sins did proceed , according to psal . . . . he mourned over his back-slidings , because god was thereby dishonoured . . he found it hard to believe , yet professed , he would roll himself , and relie upon the merits of christ alone for salvation ; and if he perished , he would perish there . . he was much in a little time in duty , yet did profess himself , he saw the insufficiency of them to justifie or save him , according to phil. . . . he made choice of christ before all , before life it self , according to phil. . . . he longed for the morning when he was to dye , because he desired to be with christ , according to ph. . . . he greatly loved god , because much was forgiven him , according to luk. . . and said though god should damn him , yet he could and would love god. . he loved the company of gods people , and professed he had rather be with gods people in prison with bread and water , than with the ungodly with liberty and greatest dainties , according to jo. . . . he blessed god that ever he was taken and imprisoned ; thinking it better to be in chains , and brought to dye , than to go on in sin . . he was most broken and melted for his sins , when those that came to visit him , were gone from him , and not in their presence ; when hypocrites mourn before others , and are less affected when alone : yet this was sometimes his trouble , lest god should lose the glory of the work he had wrought in him . ( this was observed by one that was usually with him , when others went from him . ) . he wept for joy at that time , when he could not find that god loved him , that he was not cursing , and swearing , and singing against god as others did , and he himself , formerly . . he found and tasted more sweetness in the ways of god , in praying and mourning for sin , than ever he found in the commission of sin . . he accounted sin to be worse than hell . . he had a spirit of prayer given to him so plentifully , that it was an astonishment to many that joyned sometimes with him , considering how ignorant he was a little before , according to act. . . for behold he prayeth . . he looked upon the loss of god , more than the torments of hell , and feared it more . . he prized heaven , because there he should sin no more . these were his own expressions , and what we observed that were frequently with him : and reader , do thou pray and watch , that thou mayst not be guilty of this young mans sins , but pray and labour that thou mightest obtain the like evidences for heaven . a relation of what passed in the imprisonment , and at the execution of hannah blay . h. b. belonged to a bawdy-house in ratcliff , where t. s. used to frequent , and was always welcome so long as his money lasted : his money being gone , h. b. presently puts him upon robbing of his master , which he could not easily accomplish by reason of the diligence of the servant-maid , and to murther the maid rather than fail of getting money , which he accordingly did , and goes again to h. b. and tells her what he had done , then flies : but the justice of god pursued him so fast that he was soon apprehended , and committed to newgate . after he had accused h. b. for putting him upon the murder , she was apprehended and committed also . at the sessions she was indicted and condemned for being accessary to the murder committed by t. s. in the time of her imprisonment , she was very rude , and debauched , being seldom sober , except at such times when she could not by no means procure drink to be drunk withal . she often endeavoured for to make t. s. drunk with her , which she once or twice effected , and endeavoured very much to draw him off from his repentance , by driving his old trade of sin and wickedness , if any advised her to repentance , and to take care for the future estate of her soul , she would laugh at them , and reply in some such language as she had learned in the devils school , with which she was well stored . she was from that sessions reprieved till the next , fully perswading her self she should escape that bout , and spending her time according to her former course of living , taking as little care what should become of her soul , as though she had never offended a gracious god , and as if there was no devil to torment her , nor hell to be tormented in : but now sessions being again come , and she again brought down to the sessions-house in the old-baley , had sentence to be executed at ratcliff , where the fact was committed . the night before her execution , the ordinary of newgate came to administer the sacrament to her , which she refused , saying , she could not dye in charity with some , whom she named , judging them the cause of her second judgment , and execution . the next day , being friday , feb. . she was conveyed in a cart from newgate to the place of execution , where she ended her wicked life by a shameful death , without the least sign of sorrow or repentance for her abominable whoredoms and wickedness . tim . . flee also youthful lusts . i am come this day to speak to you in the name of a dying man , and dyings mens words should leave living-affections , and lasting-impressions upon the hearts of the hearers : nay , that which is infinitely more , i am come to speak to you in the name of the living god ; and therefore , i beseech you , be serious : remember that we are not now about a laughing-business ; it is no less than for lives and souls ; and , for all that i know , as you demean your selves now , it may fare with you to all eternity : and if that will make you mind what i say the more , know this , that what i shall now speak , is but a comment upon what was yesterday delivered in brief , from one that was in perfect health , and in the grave the same day . and who knows whether there be not some here alive , and in health , that before to morrow morning shall be lumps of clay , and this the last sermon that ever they shall hear ? wherefore , i beseech you sirs , if you love the life of your souls , hearken as if you expected to dye as soon as my sermon were ended . the shortness of my time will give me leave to spend no time at all by way of reflection upon the context : but i shall immediately fall upon the words , as they lye before us : flee youthful lusts : in which you may observe . . an act , flee . . the object , lusts . . the quality of the object youthful lusts , the doctrine that i shall take notice of from these words , is this : doct. that it is the great duty of young people , to be exceeding careful to avoid the sins which usually attend their age . or if you please , that it highly concerns young men to flee youthful lusts . it 's no cowardise to flee from sin . in the prosecution of this doctrine , i shall shew , . what are the common sins of young people . . what it is to flee from youthful lusts . . why they should flee from youthful lusts . . i shall apply it . i shall name some of those sins which young ones are subject to . first , young people are very apt to be disobedient to their parents or masters . o how great a rarity is it , to see young people as ready to obey , as their parents are to command ! most children are children of belial , that is , without a yoak . let parents command , advise , nay , intreat , all 's to little purpose . how ready are they to break the bond which god and nature lay upon them to dutifulness ! though the command of god be plain enough ; though his threatnings are terrible ; and though this sin seldom goes unpunished in this life , yet children take little or no notice of them . one would think that one scripture should scare them , prov. . . the eye that mocketh at his father , and despiseth to obey his mother , the ravens of the valley shall pick it out , and the young eagles shall eat it . what is the english of that ? why , they shall come to an untimely end . have not the sad complaints of many at tiburn , sufficiently demonstrated this to be true ? have not many cryed out with a halter about their neck , children , if you value your lives and souls , take heed of disobeying your parents . that was the sin which brought me to this untimely and shameful end . . another youthful sin is , lying . poor children quickly learn this lesson of their father the devil . it is not without good reason that the psalmist , psal . . . gives such a character of wicked children which went astray from the womb , telling lyes ; and the older they grow , the more skil'd they be in this devilish art : it 's likely they are ignorant that it is a sin that cuts the bonds of all society : it may be they are told how dear ananias and sapphira paid for one lye , act. . . nay , though the word of truth tell them more than once , that lyars must dwell with their father the devil , in that black prison , hell ; though they hear of a lake of fire and brimstone that burns for ever , rev. . . and that such as they are , must be cast into it : yet for all this they 'l venture still . . sabbath-breaking is another youthful sin . o how little do most of the young people of this city mind the sanctifying of the sabbath ? doth not the multitude of apprentices and children that wander up and down moorefields on the lord's day , speak this to be too true ? they dare not make bold with their masters time on the week-days : but as for god's day , that they spend as if god had set apart one day in the week for young people to sleep , drink , and play in : they dare as well eat a piece of their fingers almost , as to do that on another day , which they do then ; and the truth of it is , they look upon the displeasure of a dying man as terrible ; but the anger of a holy god they make light of . o little do they think what precious time that is ! their souls are naked , and they then may have cloathing ; they are starving , and they may then have food , the market is then open , provisions for eternity may then be had . but , o prodigious madness ! the hearts of most young ones speak in this language : as for christ , heaven , and soul , let them go , we have better things to think on , more weighty matters to mind . and it is true indeed , o young man : what is the company of vain wretches , like thy self ; the wanton embraces of a whorish woman , the turning off thy cups , and damnation , more needful than the hearing of sermons , than praying , and reading , and salvation ? sure you should not alwaies be of that mind ! o little do you imagine how dear you shall pay for all the pleasures you have on the sabbath , out of gods house . this , this was the sin which lay like a load upon the soul of this poor young man , the profaning of the sabbath ; that was the bane of him . this carried him out of gods way into the devils quarters . o how bitterly did he bemoan himself for this sin , as the cause of all the rest ! of ( said he ) when i should have been begging the life of my soul i was plotting the death of my soul and body too . did none of you stand by the cart when he wept so bitterly , and cryed to the lord to forgive this great and dreadful sin ? did none of you hear how earnestly he begged of you to have a care of that sin , as you loved your lives and souls ? o wretch ( said he ) that i was ? i studied how i might spend the lords day in the devils wo●● ▪ i thought i could never dishonour god enough ; and that time that i should have served god most in , i did most for satan● in them then i play'd my mad pranks . i went into the church indeed sometimes , ( but i may speak it with shame and deep sorrow now ) i never heard one whole sermon all the while i was with my master ; and indeed i laugh'd at those that spent the sabbath in ●●aring of sermons , and praying ; and looked upon them as the ver●●●t fools in the world . i was glad when the sabbath came , that i might have time to run to my vile comrades . i rejoyced that i could then go to satisfie my cursed lusts with whorish women : o! tell young men from me , that the breaking of the sabbath is a costly & dangerous sin . sirs , the substance of this sermon i received from his mouth : and will you not believe a dying man ? do you think he did but jest ? 't was on the sabbath day he went to a whore , 't was on the sabbath he robbed his master , and 't was on the sabbath that he killed the maid . but because this sin is epidemical , i leave a short story with you , and desire you to think of it , and then if you like what follows , break the sabbath still . the story is this : a dear friend of mine was preaching about the sanctifying of the sabbath , and had occasion to make mention of that man , that by the special command of god was stoned to death for gathering sticks upon the sabbath-day . whereupon one of the congregation stood up and laughed , and made all the hast he could out of the church , and went to gathering of sticks , though he had no need of them , but when the people came from the sermon , they found this man stark dead , with the bundle of sticks in his arms , lying in the church-porch . and yet for all this , there stands a young man in that corner that makes nothing of idling away the sabbath : and there sits another that minds not the lord's day , except it be to get into wicked company , and take his pleasure in it . and how canst thou endure to hear of this , without trembling ? but i fear , thy heart is so hard , that thou art ready to rage against this reproof : well , if the case be so , i have done with thee ; but believe it , god hath not yet done with thee , and the devil hath not done with thee : and though thy conscience say nothing now , yet i tell thee , that hath not done with thee neither : let none think i am tedious upon this head : if young men will but reform this sin , i promise i will never tell them of it more . christians , ( i hope that there be some such here ) would it not be a blessed sight to see the fields , the taverns , the whore-houses empty , and the churches full ? would it not be a blessed reformation ? o when shall it once be ! which is the sweeter musick , to hear the air eccho with the confused hollowing and roaring of lewd young men , playing upon the lords day , or to hear the sound of singing of psalms , repeating of sermons , praying , reading of scriptures ? which is like to end best ? isa . . . amos. . isa . . . . ezek. . . . another youthfull sin is mis-spending of time , young ones think they have time enough before them , and therefore make nothing of trifling it away . how far are most from following the apostles counsel ▪ in redeeming of the time ? what do you think many hours discourse of filthy bawdy stories , is that redeeming of time ? is sitting up whole nights to play at cards and dice redeeming of time ? is robbing your selves of sleep , to lye in the bosom of dalilah , redeeming time ? if this be redeeming of time , then some of our young ones , and many of our gallants , redeem time bravely . 't was a notable one , that of seneca ; if ( saith he ) one ask me for my purse , i am not very willing to give it him ; if he beg my estate , i think it a mad request ; but if he ask me to pass away time with him , two or three days of time , i pass not much upon it , but it 's easily granted : and thus one of the most precious things in the world is vilified . o little do people think how glad they shall be one day of one of those hours that they spent in foolery oh call time again , will be the language of more then one , upon a death-bed . could you talk with some of the mad young ones that are in hell , that lived five or six years ago in as much pleasure as you do now , and spent their time like you , but it may be little dreamed of being in hell so soon , but might reckon of forty or fifty years to live ; could you i say , talk with them , and ask them what they think of time now : they would quickly say , oh a world for one praying hour . oh where are the people to be found that seriously consider that there is not a moment of time but we must be accountable for . 't was excellently spoke of that poor young man when he was in newgate amongst the common prisoners ; one sabbath-day they asked him to play at cards with them ? oh ( saith he ) you and i have something else to do with our time , than to play at cards : is it now a time for us to be sporting away the sabbath , when we have but one poor sand left to work for eternity ? . another youthful sin is , keeping bad company . are there not many of the devils emissaries , that make it their business to decoy poor young ones ? o what a happiness do they promise them ! a goodly happiness indeed , to carry them to the devil ! 't was not without cause that david ( in psal . . . ) did pronounce them blessed that had least to do in wicked company : whatever deluded creatures think of their mad jovial company ; one that is well in his wits , looks upon their society as an emblem of hell , psal . . the young man upon whose account we are here met this day , told me , that two or three wicked fellows first got him out to spend a penny ; but little did he think whither they were leading of him ; and after they had been at one place , they carried him to another , till at last they brought him to that house , out of which few go without their deaths-wound . this was the general complaint of them that went this last assizes to tiburn . and yet how are silly souls pleased with such company , whose greatest kindness is to make them go merrily to hell ? and are they still such sweet natur'd creatures , that you can't love too much , who do what they can possibly to deprive you of your truest happiness , and make you miserable for ever ? o how will your boon companions greet one another in hell , nay , it may be upon earth too ? i remember i was once with a drunkard that lay a dying , and after i had prayed with him , in comes one of his old companions in sin , and askt him how he did : at which he was ready to gnash his teeth , and made this dreadful reflection concerning him to me , o that , that was the wicked wretch that drew me away : if it had not been for him , i had not been in so lamentable a condition upon a death-bed , prov. . , . . the sixth youthful sin is , cursing and swearing . how ready are young ones to learn the language of their father ? it was not long since that i heard a little boy swear at every sentence he spoke . o what will such be when they come to be old , if they begin so soon ? scarce creep on their feet , and yet running post to hell ! oh how many are there of this daring generation , that bend their tongues like bowes , and shoot those arrows against heaven , which will fall down dipt in the poyson of divine fury . it would make one's heart ake , to hear how some belch out their hellish oaths , to hear how cruelly they rake in the wounds of christ , and crucifie him afresh ; not considering , that at the same time they are butchering of their own souls ; and if one tell them of their swearing , how ready are they to swear ? that they did not swear ? and turn and laugh , as if it were a creditable thing to be like the devil , and an honour to make hast to hell . o how many are there of this black crew , that brave it out with their damn-me , and sink-me , and oaths as if they would dare the almighty to his very face , and as if there were little of truth in gods threatnings , and his anger a very light matter ! o sinner ! what if god should take thee at thy word , when the next damn-me is in thy mouth ? and stop thy breath with an oath in thy mouth ? what if god should go to cursing too ? do you know what a dreadful word that is , go thou cursed ! o! what if god should swear too . that thou shalt never enter into his rest ? couldst thou but see the flaming tongues of those horrid sinners that know what the meaning of that word damn-me , is : couldst thou but see how they bite those tongues for madness , it may be it would make thee think , that an oath is no such light matter . you say , words are but wind : but believe it , this wind will rise to such a storm as will not be allay'd without deep repentance , till it hath blown thee into hell . did you never read the third of mal. ver . . i will come near to judgements and i will be a swift witness against the false swearers , and such as fear not me , saith the lord of hosts . but you 'l say , your tongues are your own ; who is lord over us ? psal . . . you shall hear one shortly that will answer that question , and let you know , that he is lord over that , and that your own tongue shall be made to condemn you . but what is it that i see ? how does that swearing wretch storm and rage there at me , for telling him of his sins ? come , come , sinner if you spare not god , i promise you i will not spare you , and i tell thee , what thou hearest , is nothing to what thou shalt feel . . the next youthful lust that i shall mention , is drunkenness . do not many ( i wish old ones were not here too guilty ) act as if their business in this world was to eat and drink , and take their pleasures ? the devil bids them read that text , eccles . . . rejoyce o young ; and they are easily perswaded to take his counsel : and so they drink , and roar , and consider not what a reckoning will be brought at last : neither do they stand till they have read the latter part of that verse ; but know , that for all these things god will bring thee to judgment . not considering the meaning of that whole scripture , which is but this : go , young man , lye at the taverns and ale-houses , do , drink ; and be drunk ; but remember this , you shall be damn'd for 't , and god will make you take off t' other cup , whether you will or no , and that is a cup spiced with wrath and fury . but you see not , neither do you yet feel it ; and therefore you do but laugh at all this : you say with those in matth. . , my master delays his coming ; and therefore you eat and drink with the drunkards , you say , let him talk till his heart akes , i will never leave my pleasure for you ; why man ! wilt thou then be desperate ? dare you say , i 'le drink , though there be death in the pot , though hell be at the bottom of the cup ? or do you think that god will be worse than his word ? and , that though he threaten high , yet he means no such matter ? o sinner : deceive not thy self ; and if thou forget the rest , carry home but that one text , deut. . , . if any one hear the word of this course , and yet bless himself in his heart , saying , i shall have peace , though i walk in the imagination of mine own heart , and add drunkenness to thirst , the lord will not spare him , &c. do you read on , and read it again , and think of that scripture the next time that you sit down to your cups . little do poor creatures think how dreadful a sin drunkenness is , and how many it bringeth with it . i 'le tell you of one story of my own knowledge , and then i shall leave this . a certain drunkard that i knew very well , when he was in drink , quarrelled with his fellow-servant , and after a few words , knocked him down with his flail , and killed him at one blow . afterwards , by friends he made shift to escape the halter , and comes home again , and swears , and curses , and drinks at as high a rate as ever : but at last , when he was in the same yard where he did this murder , he dropt down dead in a moment , and i was one of the first that saw him . . another youthful sin is , vncleanness . is not england too near a kin to france ? do not many of our young ones act as if they took pattern by sodom and had learned of gomorrah ? jeremiah made sad complaint , jer. . . and are we less guilty ? doth not the scripture speak plain enough against this sin ? though the pope count it a venial fault , yet those that are guilty of it , will find , that his pardon will give them little ease when they are cast into a bed of flames . sure our hot young men seldom read the book of proverbs , but act as if that simple young man ( prov. . . ) did run no great hazzard : what was it that brought thomas savage to theft and murder ? what brought him to that shameful death ? o how bitterly did he take on , that he should ever see the face of that vile woman ! o! had he but considered whether he was going , and that most of her guests go to hell : had he but thought seriously how bitter that sin would prove , i believe he would have lain in flames as soon as with that abominable woman . did none of you hear what he said when he was upon the cart ? did none of you see with what earnestness he spoke ? why , this was one great thing that he begged of you young ones , as his dying request , that you would have a care of this sin . . the next youthful sin that i shall mention , is theft , drunkenness and vncleanness , are two costly sins , especially the latter , and poor creatures are usually so bewitched with that , that credit , purse , body , soul , and all must go , rather than that beastly sin should not be gratified . how many servants are there that wrong their masters , imbezil their goods , and secretly wast them by the fore-mentioned sin ? and i believe i need not tell you what a tragical end theft hath . that prodigy of her sex , and disgrace of women , could not be satisfied with wine and good cheer ; her purse must be fed as well as her stinking carcase : what do you come hither ( said she ) for , without money ? why , where shall i have it , said he ? what , hath your master none ? replied that monster , yes , said he ; but i never wronged him , neither can i. nay , said she , if you be thereabouts , come no more here . but alas ! the poor creature is insnared , so that he cannot but go to ask councel of this daughter of the devil , how he should manage his matters , so as to get that money which his master had . she makes a ready reply , and adviseth to murther the maid , to bury the theft . o that unfaithful servants would think of these things , and now and then read that scripture , tit. . . and luke . . i should here speak something of the bloody sin of murder ; but the word of god , the laws of men , the power of conscience , and the signal judgments of god against such , puts me in some hope that i need not much insist upon that . i shall add but one sin more . . another youthful sin is , incorrigibleness . how resolutely do most young ones go on in their sins ? how hardly brought so much as to debate the business soberly with themselves or others ? how do they flye in the face of them which reprove them ? as if it were ten times a greater fault for to reprove sin , than to commit it . nay , some are come to that height , that they make but a mock of hell and judgment , as well as sin , isa . . . but these are so vile a generation , that i have little hopes of prevailing with them , psal . . , . jer. . . gen. . . ii. the next thing i proposed to speak to , was , to shew you what it is to flee sin . in this i shall be very brief . . not to commit it . take not up this serpent , for it hath a deadly sting in the tail of it . embrace not this dalilah , for she will betray thee , hast away , avoid it ; if you do not , it is as much as your life , the life of your soul , is worth , isa . . . . flee , that is , avoid the very occasions of sin . it 's ill jesting with edg-tools . they are safest , that are farthest from it . a hundred to one but thou art caught , if thou play with the bait. who , but a mad man would take strong poyson into his mouth , and say that he will then spit it out ? who would choose to sleep upon the top of a mast ? believe it , sin is one of the most dangerous things in the world , and he that tampers with it , plays with hell , and is sporting with the devil , thes . . . . flee ; that is , hate it with a perfect hatred . say , what have i to do with idols any more ? how shall i do this , and sin against god ? labour for a spiritual antipathy against sin , and to loath it , as david and paul , yea , as god himself , psal . . . . flee , and perswade others to flee : for the danger is not unconsiderable . tell others what sin will prove at last , and perswade them to consider what the wages of such work will be , psal . . . iii. why should we flee youthful lusts ? . because our captain bids us flee : we have his commission , nay , his absolute command : may i not say , his entreaty too ? what is the meaning of all those pathetical expostulations , turn , you , turn you ; why will you dye ? why doth he bid us to beseech you to look about you ? what is the design of all the scripture ? wherefore do we preach and pray ? methinks the ministers of christ should be like those angels that warned lot to flee out of sodom , and when he lingred , they pulled him , and bid him hast , and flee for his life . i might be infinite in scriptures for the proof of this , psal . . , . . because of the danger of not fleeing . if the wrath of god , if hell and damnation , if everlasting misery be to be avoided , then sin is : for as sure as god is true , sinners must be damned if they flee not sin . . because of the benefit that we shall have by fleeing sin . we shall be everlastingly secured . if heaven and glory be worth the getting , if happiness and salvation considerable , if a kingdom and crown be worth the having , this may be obtained by fleeing from sin . application . iv. vse . is it so , that it is our duty to flee youthful lusts ? then let all this congregation of young men and women , consider how well they have obyed the command . sirs , be faithful to your souls , and ask your selves speedily , what you have done ? young men , are you guilty , or not guilty ? it 's better you should be asked this question at the bar of conscience , than at the bar of god's judgement . children , how say you , are you as ready to obey , as your parents are to command ? doth not your conscience tell you , that you can tell a lye to cover a fault , and yet not be much troubled ? some of you are come here this day to hear news , more than to hear your sin reproved : but where are you on the sabbath-day ? may not i see you idling in the streets , and sitting at your doors ? nay , may i not see you in the companny of wicked creatures , in an ale-house ? well , sinner , well ; the reckoning will come up by and by . i pray tell me , how do you spend your time ? is it in your chamber upon your knees , and at your honest callings , and in civil and christian society ? who are the persons that you take most delight in ? are they those that discourse of god and their souls , and warn one another with words of grace ? vvhat think you of cursing and swearing ? do you fear an oath ? or do you think the deepest oaths the best rhetorick , and most graceful , if i may so speak , to your discourse ? vvhat language do you speak , the language of canaan , or the languague of ashdod ? can you stretch your selves upon beds of ivory , and drink vvine from morning to night , and look upon this as the only life ? is it not a pleasant thing to lye in the embraces of wanton vvoman ? and cannot you use unseemly dalliance , and say , am i not in sport ? did you never wrong your master in your life ? and dare you do so still ? and how would you take it , if i should come to you , and tell you roundly of all your sins ? could you bear it if i should come close to you and set hell and damnation before you ? young men i beseech you answer me ; i tell you again it 's better for you that i should ask you this question here , than god hereafter . vvell , have you put it to your conscience ? and are you guilty ? i must tell you plainly , i cannot but think that abundance of this congregation are in many of these sins deeply guilty ; and yet there stands a slye sinner , no more affected then the ground he treads on : thou think'st i do not know thee ; but that , if possible , i may stop thee before thou com'st to the gallows , and hell , i shall do what i can , for my soul to reach thee : wherefore give me leave , in the next place , to speak one word by way of conviction . young people , i am not come this day to tell you news ; my business is not to tickle your ears , but to do what i can possibly to keep you from that place of shame , the gibbet ; and that place of torment , hell. i believe here are many , that i shall never see nor speak to while the world stands ; and that our next meeting will be before the judgment-seat of christ : and therefore i must tell you i must not jest with you . i speak to those that are guilty : you know well enough who i mean. let me ask you soberly . do you believe that there is a god ? and that he is privy to all you do ? and dare you outface god with your wickedness ? or do you make account his eye is nothing , so man do not know : can you so ? believe it , sinner , you will shortly know that god , and your conscience are witnesses enough to cast you : and is this nothing : are not the threatnings of a god to be regarded : shall the lyon roar , and will not such a beast as you tremble ? know this , as stoutly as you brave it out now , you will shortly quake . but you are resolved , come on what will , venture you will. but hold , sinner , i prithee let 's reason the case a little ; do not act like a fool and a mad-man : were you ever in newgate ? do you know what a prison is ? are fetters such desireable things ? hath the devil done you so much kindness , as that you must venture your liberty for his sake ? come tell me , sinner , what good did the devil ever do for thee willingly ? is it worth thy while to do and fuffer so much for one that never intended any good to any in the world ? consider a little , young man , is it nothing to come gingling in your chains before an earthly judge ? is the sight of the bench nothing ? is it nothing to have your villany laid open before the world ? how do you think you shall look , when evidences comes in clear , and the jury shall cast you ? what , brave it out still ! but what will you say when the judge shall pass sentence upon you , to be carried from thence to the prison , and from that , to the place of execution ? is it nothing to have ten thousand spectators , of your shameful end ? but methinks i hear some of that hellish rout laughing , and saying , it is but a swing or two , and then all 's over , their misery 's at an end . but hold there , sinner , then thy misery will begin ; for thou shalt appear immediately before the bar of god , and there receive another sentence ten thousand times more dreadful than the former , vvhat , do you make nothing of that dreadful word , depart thou cursed ? and then immediately the devil takes your soul . he waits for his prey ; and thou must be reserved in chains of darkness , in unspeakable and unavoidable torments , to the judgment of the great day , and then thy cursed body and soul shall meet . o what a dreadful greeting will that be , when both body and soul shall be cast into everlasting flames ! vvell , young man , now what do you say ? is it best venturing still ? but it may be thou beginst to think , what a strange censorious man is this ? such preaching is enough to make one out of their wits ! what , is there no such thing as repentance ? a grace , a god one may be saved for all your railing . vvhat do you think of t. savage ? did not he repent : i hope you will not say that he is in hell. no indeed , for i verily believe that he is a saint in glory : but how do you know whether god will give you repentance ? i must tell you , he is a singular instance , such a one as we shall scarce hear of in an age : and i remember , that he that is oft reproved , and hardens his heart , shall suddenly be destroyed , and that without remedy . but though i speak thus , brethren , i hope better things of many here , and things that do accompany salvation . i am perswaded here are some young ones that had as lief venture their lives as indulge themselves in the fore-mentioned youthful lusts . i think i have ground to say what i do : brethren , i beseech you make not my boasting void , neither let me be ashamed of my confidence . i am perswaded , i say again , that some of you now hate what sometimes you did delight in , and though , it may be , in the days of your darkness you lived in your sins , yet now fear to fall into them , as much as you fear hell : courage my brethren , go on bravely , and the lord be with you ; you are the hopes and joy of old christians , they bless god from their heart to see such flowers in gods garden : hold but out , be strong , and quit you like men , and heaven shall be yours , as sure as if you were already there . . vse . i shall here speak something by way of advice to the masters of families and parents : it lies much in your power to set a stop to that mighty torrent of wickednesse that doth almost overflow this city . remember , sirs , what a dreadful sin the sin of murder is : what then do you think of those that murder souls , that starves souls ? how do you think god will take it at your hand , that you should be so careful that your work be done , and never mind his at all ? is it nothing to you , that one that dwells under your your roof , must dwell with everlasting burnings ? are you so barbarous , as to be indifferent whether your servants and children are damned or saved ? what can you answer , when those of your own house shall stand before the great god , and say , lord if it had not been for my master , i had never sinned against thee at that rate which i did : he never told me any thing of the danger of sin , he would be sure to call me up betimes to look after his business : if i neglected that , i should quickly hear of it : but as for the lords day , praying , or reading , or any thing that concerned god or my soul , i never was so much as reproved for the neglecting of them : o! if i had been but told of such a dreadful place as this , is , and what sin would end in , sure i should never have ventured as i did . sirs , i beseech you think how you shall answer such an accusation at the day of judgment , as sure as you live , you will then be speechless . parents me thinks you have something within you , to put you upon your duty : what ? have you no love at at all to the fruit of your bodies ? is it no great matter whether your children sink or swim ? would you be contented to see them in a house that is in a flame , and do nothing to get them out ? would you have your children fire-brands of hell for ever ? will you do nothing to rescue them from that devouring lion who would tear them in pieces ? can you bear to hear them cry out against you , and ready to fly in your faces ? doth it never trouble you to think what a greeting you shall have in another world when they shall curse the day that ever they saw you , when they shall say , i may thank you for this dreadful misery you never catechis'd me , nor told me one word of this place of torment ; you never corrected me for my sin : if you had , it may be i should not have lain under this intolerable anguish ? what do you say ; sirs , to these things ? methinks they call for your serious consideration : really , if these be not weighty matters , i know not what be , let me ask you in meekness , whether it be not a piece of the most barbarous cruelty in the world , to let your children and servants run to hell , without doing what in you lies to stop them ? but i hope , by this time , some of you are a little convinced of the dreadfulness of the loss of a soul , and are loth to have the guilt of the blood of souls to lie upon you for ever , and therefore begin to ask . what shall you do that you and yours may be saved , and your servants and children might escape the snares of satan , and flee youthful lusts ? are you in good earnest , friends ? and will you promise , as in the presence of god , that you will do what you can possibly , to discharge your duty , and to follow those directions that i shall give you ? in hopes that some are resolved , by the help of god , to do what in them lies for the keeping all under their charge from everlasting burnings : i shall advise you . . be good your selves , and labour to be paterns of holiness , and to shew your children and servants by your conversation that you your selves believe that there is a god , an immortal soul , heaven , hell , and eternity , let your language be savoury , and speak you to be one that hath been with jesus . let your actions be regulated by the word , and endeavour to let them know , that you are not in jest when you speak of god and their souls . psal . . , . . i charge you as in the presence of god , as you will answer the neglect of it at the bar of that great judge , take an exact account of your servants how they spend their time , what company they keep , what they do upon the sabbath , and if you would make any thing of religion , be as careful that the sabbath be spent in gods service , as the week-days in yours . i could tell you of a servant that was wont many a time and oft , to complain of his master , and say , if my master had ever examined me the text on the lords day , or called me to account where i had been , or what i had heard , i am perswaded i should never have come to so sad an end as i am now like to do . . instruct them oft in the matters that concern their eternal welfare . sirs , tell them , i beseech you , with all the earnestness that you can for your lives , of the danger of sin , give them wholesome advice ; tell them of the necessity of conversion : allow them a little time to pray and read , and let them know that you take notice of any thing that is good in them . . pray for them , cry to the lord mightily , and say , o that ishmael may live in thy sight : lord , hast thou not a blessing , o my father , for me and mine ? o pitty , dear lord my children and my servants , and let all under my roof , be of the houshould of faith , and of the family of the lord jesus . and now once more i beg you to be in earnest , 't will be the true●t evidence of the truth of your grace , to be faithful in this work . 't will be your joy upon a death-bed ; 't will be your crown in another world . vse . . one word by way of advice , to you young people : brethren , you saw yesterday what it was to fall into youthfull lusts ; and to day you have h●●rd something of the danger of these things . methinks by this time you should be in a rage 〈…〉 methinks you should all say , well , now i will never ●p●●● the sabbath day as i have done , i 'le never come near the company of vile women ; this i hope shall be a warning unto me as long as i live . are you ( in sober sadness ) of this mind ? oh that the lord would keep this always upon your hearts : o that you now may not get out into the cold world , and shake of the sense of these things . but do i not see some weeping eyes , and aking hearts ? and what dost thou say , poor soul ? o sir , i am the man you mean ! but is it possible for me to escape hell ? i have lived in almost all these sins for many a year ; what shall i do ? i shall answer this honest request , and the god of love and power set it home . . labour to be acquainted with the principles of religion : be much in reading of the scriptures ; search , and you will find never a word there to encourage sin , but all against it ; they will make you wise to salvation : consult the word , and you will escape the wrath to come , which shall surely fall upon all those that live and dye in their sins , psal . . . . labour to understand wherein your happiness lies : it lies not in riches , pleasures , and honours , but in the favour of god , psal . . . seek first the kingdom of heaven , and the righteousness thereof ; set your affections on things that are above , and not on things below . . to be sure , keep the sabbath strictly , and attend upon a powerful ministery . then is the time to buy provisions to live upon for ever . . keep good company . get out of wicked mens society . mark those that walk soberly , and that mind their souls , and make much of them ; and beg an interest in their prayers and take their advice . if you once grow weary of good company , i shall have but little hopes of you , and it 's a sign god means good to poor souls , when they are very desirous to be in with them that are dear to god. a warm christian-companion , o sirs , you cannot value him too highly , cor. . . pet. . heb. . . . take heed of sinning against conscience . let davids prayer be yours , psal . . . keep back thy servant from presumptious sins , let them not have dominion over me . . take heed of putting of repentance , remember now your creator , now is the acceptable time : o if you value your lives , make haste , and delay not an hour ; but go and fall upon on your knees , and beg of god to give you repentance unto life , give god no rest day nor night , till he have changed your heart , and made you to see your need of a christ , and to give up your self to christ : o cry out this night , a christ , dear lord , a christ for my poor soul , or i am lost for ever , eclesc . . . psal . . . . be much in consideration ; commune now and then with your heart , and think seriously whither you are going , and ask your soul what a condition it is in , and what it hath to bear up against the fear of death , and what provisions are made for eternity , look into your purse , what money hast thou that will go currant in another world ? spend much time in thinking . i askt this poor boy how he spent his time in prison ? he answered , in praying , reading , and consideration . . neglect not prayer ; ask and you shall have ; seek , and you shall find ; knock , and it shall be opened unto you : be frequent and serious in this duty ; forget not secret prayer ; and look after your prayers , and be not content , except you here of them again . . be diligent in your callings , be not slothful in your worldly business , idleness is the devil's shop , rom. . . . hold out to the end : remember what they shall have that conquer , resolve for christ and heaven upon any terms . well sirs now my work is done ; have i been beating the air ? what shall become of these two sermons ? yesterday you heard one out of the cart , and from the gibbet , and to day from the pulpit ; and what are you resolved to do ? what , shall the tears , prayers and entreaties of that dying young man , be so soon forgotten ? if they are , can the commands of the living god be so easily contemned ? is there nothing in all that i have been speaking ? what , are you still of the same mind that you were , or are you not ) i say again , i must leave you , and a thousand to one whether i shall ever see you , or speak to you more : once more i charge you , as you love your own soul , as as you fear the wrath of god , and the flames of hell. flee youthful lusts . finis . an account of the tryal and conviction of sir john friend for high-treason in conspiring the death of his most sacred majesty, king william, and the subvertion of the government, &c. : at the sessions-house in the old-baily on monday the d of this instant march, , before the right honourable the lord chief justice holt, the lord chief justice treby, &c. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an account of the tryal and conviction of sir john friend for high-treason in conspiring the death of his most sacred majesty, king william, and the subvertion of the government, &c. : at the sessions-house in the old-baily on monday the d of this instant march, , before the right honourable the lord chief justice holt, the lord chief justice treby, &c. friend, john, sir, d. . england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). sheet ([ ] p.) printed for edward steel ..., london : . reproduction of original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng friend, john, -- sir, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. william -- iii, -- king of england, - -- assassination attempt, . trials (treason) -- england -- london. broadsides -- england -- th century. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an account of the tryal and conviction of sir john friend , for high-treason in conspiring the death of his most sacred majesty , king william , and the subvertion of the government . &c. at the sessions-house , in the old-baily : on monday , the d . of this instant march , . before the right honourable the lord chief justice holt , the lord chief justice treby , &c. never was conspiracy , more happily , and more fully discovered than the late horrid design for the barbarous assassination of his majesties person , the invasion of the kingdom , and subversion of the government , and consequently the protestant religion ; when beside the number , and withal the credit of the witnesses , we have the publick confession of the dying criminals themselves , ex ore suo , making their own voluntary self condemnation ; and ever justifying both their accusers , and their own execution ; as their own papers , delivered to the hands of the sheriff ; and since publish'd by authority suffitiently testifie . but to ballance the case between the three unfortunate romish zealots , viz. charnock , king , and keys , , that have already received justice , and the present criminal sir john friend , now brought to the bar of justice , in order to receiveing it , we have this unhappy difference between them ; that , of the two , this unfortunate gentleman lies under ( if possible ) the much more hainous , and less pittied circumstances ; for though there can be no apology for guilt so barbarous on either side , yet certainly it must be an infinite aggravation of the crime in sir john friend , professing himself a member of the protestant religion ; whereas the other three convicts were all papists , and consequently were mislead by some impulse of blind zeal , a bigotted superstition that might animate this conspiracy , in favour both of their own altars , and their darling champion of them the late k. j — 's : but sir john friend , under his contrary capacity , when embark'd in the same black cause , besides the blot in their scutcheon has this additional stain in his , viz. not only of such perfidious ●●d shameful treason against his king and country , but even against himself ; for no protestant can list under such a bloody banner , but in realiiy must be an actor in his own , as well as his countries ruin : and certainly it must be no common infatuation that could misguide and ensnare a man into so horrid and likewise so stupid a confederacy , where the phrenzy of rebellion edges and arms the drawn sword even against our own throats . and if there can be degrees of the most capital sins , it lies a a little more heavy upon this unfortunate offendor , who with that mass of wealth , and those smiles of fortune , should nevertheless debase himself to the engaging in so wicked a cause , when profligate lives and desperate fortunes ( one would think ) should only be tempted to fish in troubled waters . it has been remarkt , that never were more generous , and those repeated , tenders of mercy offered , than to sir john friend , from the king 's own mouth , upon his examination before the councel ; but his obstinacy , and hardened denial of his offence , and some other ill ascendants over made him , reject the royal clemency , till too late to be recalled , which has brought him to this deplorabel scene . being brought upon his tryal , on monday the d . of this instant march , after ten in the morning , which continued till two in the afternoon . the greatest stress of the testimony against him , besides his general assistance in the conspiracy , was his acceptance of a collonels commission for raising a regiment of horse ; it being proved by capt. porter and mr. blair , that he had chosen all his captains , ( who were all mentioned ) and had met them at several taverns and elsewhere in this city , and had paid several sums of mony for carrying on the cause : the evidence was full and plain against him ; besides one of hi● own letters was produced to confirm their testimoy : he endeavoured to invalidate the credit of the witnesses , as being papists , but that was over-ruled . in short after a long tryal and full hearing the jury went out , and soon returning , brought him in guilty . the court then rising , and adjourning till to morrow , at which time we expect to hear sentence pronounced . london , printed for edward steel , in the strand , the true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions for london and middlesex, begun april the th, giving an exact account of the tryal of a popish priest, condemn'd for high treason, a maid tryed for firing her masters house, and divers for murder, robbery on the highway, burglary and other notorious crimes : with the number of all that are condemn'd to die, were burnt in the hand, or to be whipt, and each persons particular crime, and circumstances of discovery, apprehension, &c. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions for london and middlesex, begun april the th, giving an exact account of the tryal of a popish priest, condemn'd for high treason, a maid tryed for firing her masters house, and divers for murder, robbery on the highway, burglary and other notorious crimes : with the number of all that are condemn'd to die, were burnt in the hand, or to be whipt, and each persons particular crime, and circumstances of discovery, apprehension, &c. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) p. [s.n.], london : . reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions for london and middlesex , begun april the th , . giving an exact account of the tryal of a popish priest , condemn'd for high-treason ; a maid tryed for firing her masters house , and divers for murder , robbery on the highway , burglary , and other notorious crimes . with the number of all that are condemn'd to die , were burnt in the hand , or to be whipt ; and each person 's particular crime , and circumstances of discovery , apprehension , &c. licensed , , london : printed in the year . the proceedings at the sessions for london and middlesex . the sessions bginning on wednesday , a young woman was tried for murthering her ( supposed ) bastard-childe . being servant in a victualing-house , a fellow living in the same house , accidentally found something under the stairs wrapt up in a cloth ; which upon opening , proved to be a young naked childe ; which had lain so long there , ( six or eight weeks , as it was supposed ) that 't was putrified . hereupon the prisoner was suspected that it might be hers , and search'd by a midwife and some matrons , who were of opinion that she had a childe , but not so lately : and indeed she confess'd , she had a year or two ago , a little one , but affirmed , that she was then married , and absolutely denied that she knew any thing of this childe . wherefore there being no proof that it was h●rs , and for that , being a publick house , it was possible it might be laid there by another , she was acquitted . an irish man walking by a watchmakers shop , and observing no body in it , takes up a watch fairly in his hand first , as if he were going to cheapen it ; but seeing no body come out of the house to speak to him , loath to lose so convenient an opportunity , goes his way with it : but a gentlewoman over the way took notice of him , and the people pursuing him , he was overtaken , and the watch found upon him in his hand . he now pretended he meant not to steal it , but onely stept out to speak with one ; but the case was plain enough , and he found guilty of felony , and burnt in the hand . a young gentleman , and a servant to a poulterer , were arraigned for breaking into a gentlemans chamber ( which was next to his ) in clements lane in the night-time , and taking thence and pounds . there was another concern'd , who 't is thought was the principal contriver of the robbery , but he is escaped . this last was admitted by the gentleman now at the bar , to lie with him in his chamber , and understanding that the owner of the next chamber had a considerable sum of money there , they resolv'd to possess themselves thereof : in order to which , knowing that his beds-head stood just opposite to theirs , they first remove their own bed , then take down a large piece of wainscot , after that , at convenient times , when they knew their neighbour was abroad , fell to work on the brick-wall , which they dug through , and pluckt up the hanging on his side , and forc'd away the bed , till they got room enough to enter . then they break open his closet and trunk , take away the money , very neatly carry off all the rubbish that had saln in on that side , return into their own chamber , pluck his beds-head up close to the wall , and set their own in its former posture ; so all seem'd cleverly performed : then they share the money , l. being left , and since found in a drawer in the young mans chamber ; the rest the other two take , and ride down into kent . the owner of the chamber , at his return , perceives himself robb'd , but could not imagine which way , finding his door double lockt , and all the chamber to appearance sound ; at last removing the bed and hanging , discovers the breach . that night the gentleman now a prisoner , coming home-late , was seized , and the l. found . some time after the other prisoner coming to london , was apprehended ; but the third criminal , with the far greater part of the booty , got clear off . they were both found guilty of felony and burglary , but the young geneleman seemed very penitent and sorrowful for the offence which thus unhappily he was drawn into . something like this was charged upon four scotch tailors in bedfordbury , who lodging next door to a persons house that lost one night above l. out of an upper chamber , he imagined they must come in at the gutter to do it , and immediately got a constable and took them all fast asleep in their beds ; and upon search could not , amongst them all four , find any greater estate than the sum of six farthings : wherefore there being only suspition , and that on very small grounds , for that it was proved there were divers other ways to come into the gutter besides from that house where the prisoners lodged ; therefore they were discharged . a maid was arraigned for firing her masters house in hatton garden . there were two of them committed , but onely one indicted , and the other gave evidence . one a sunday-night a fire happen'd in this gentlemans house in the garret , where there had been no fire all that day , nor occasion for any candle ; so that it was reasonable to suspect it came by designe : which seem'd more to reflect on the prisoner , because she used to sit up often , and particularly that night after the rest of the family . but it appearing by several testimonies , that the maid was of very good reputation , well educated in the protestant religion , so far from a papist , that she had been that day with her master and mistriss at church , and no direct proof against her , she was acquitted . the fire was soon espi'd abroad , and through gods mercy extinguisht without any great damage . another servant was found guilty of murthering her bastard-child ; she pretended to be delivered at the house-of-office , and that it was still-born : but it was proved that she had privately wrapt it up in her apron , and was carrying it in an hand-basket to bury it ; but being met by one that would needs see what she got there , was discovered ; and all this within an hour after she was delivered . so lusty she was to do so villanous a deed , venturing abroad , and going a considerable way from where she dwelt , enough in that respect to have occasioned her own death , ( considering her condition ) as she had been the means of the death of her innocent infant . but though she escaped catching cold , she did not escape justice , but is condemned to die. one gentleman took a tryal for killing another at an ordinary in holborn ; it appeared that the prisoner began the quarrel , and upon a very scurvy occasion on a discourse concerning magna charta , whereupon some personal reflections were raised on either side , so long , that being too passionate to confine his resentments , he offered to reach his sword : to prevent that , the other caught up a chair , but by friends seemed pacified . immediately after , having both their swords on , the prisoner drew , and the other as soon , or near as soon as he ; and some passes and parryings happened between them , but were parted . and then the gentleman deceased stept up to the prisoner , caught him by the arm , threw him down , fell upon him , and disarmed him ; but being taken up , returned his sword , and so the fray ended , none present thinking any harm done : but then the other gentleman began to complain he was wounded , as indeed he was mortally , for the second day after he died . it was concluded by the gentlemen present , that the wound was received when the deceased ran up and closed with the prisoner ; so it was found manslanghter , and the gentleman took his clergy : as to further penalty having obtained the grant of a pardon . as likewise had another gentleman convicted of the like crime committed by charing-cross ; it appearing that the gentleman dead , was a particular friend of the prisoners , and that it was unhappily done in a sudden heat . the same proceedings were in the case of a third gentleman , abused grossly in the street by a footman , whom after much patience , and retreating several times , and desiring him to go about his business , it was his misfortune to kill . a souldier quartered at kensington , with several others unknown , in the night set upon a person on the high-way , returning thither from london , led him into a gravel-pit , took away or shil . ( all the money he had about him ) and several cloaths which he was carrying home . the man knew the prisoner , he having formerly quartered at his house ; so getting home , searches , findes he was out of nis quarters ; seizes him next morning when he came home : and now he was condemned to die for felony and robbery . one john morgan was indicted on the statute , for that being born a subject of england , and having received orders from the see of rome , yet he came into and remained in england . there was very good evidence that proved he was a priest , and had said mass ; but as formerly , so now at bar he freely confest that he was a priest . some say he was heretofore a little crazed in his understanding , which was probable enough by his behaviour : however , the offence being evident , according to law he was found guilty of felony and high-treason , and received sentence to be drawn , hanged and quartered . a country-fellow pretending to give a visit to an honest man whom he had formerly lived with , being by him kindly entertained , made such ill use thereof , as at last to steal an horse from him , which he sold to another : and being now found out , was found guilty and condemned . having of late made a trade of horse-stealing , and taken away several in buckingham-shire , kent , and essex , as was alleadged against him . a wench was condemn'd for murthering her bastard-child . being suspected by her mistriss , and examined , she freely confess'd that she had put it into the house of office , and that it crying , she pusht it down with a stick . a gentleman and two others concerned with him in attempting , above a year ago , to steal and force away a young lady of eminent quality , on the highway ; for which some of their accomplices formerly taken , were condemned to die , but obtained a pardon , came now to take a tryal for the same , being charged with two indictments , one for felony , on which they were acquitted ; another for a riot , to which they pleaded guilty , and were fined , the gentleman l. and the other two l. a piece . two persons were severally tryed for coyning and counterfeiting , and the melting-pot and stamp brought into court ; one was ingenious at forging french-pistols so neatly , that you could not distinguish them from the true ones : and the better to carry on the work , he and his associates bought a boat , and pretended to carry brick up and down the thames , and there did the jobb ; however he got off . but another for counterfeiting was found guilty , and to be hanged , drawn , and quartered . an ingenious villain had stoln a mare doubly ; first in york-shire , and sold her to one at totnam-high-cross ; afterwards he went thither and stole her again ; but that was twice too oft in truth , and once too much for him : for now he was caught and condemned to be hang'd . whereas a doctor of divinity was two or three sessions ago question'd about a silver salt , lost out of a room where he and another were drinking in a publick house without temple-bar , the other person , who then absconded , was now convicted and burnt in the hand . a whole leash of harlots were tryed for stealing a watch from a young gamester , that was so courteous as to invite them to a bottle ; and they , because they saw he spent his time so ill , thought an instrument to measure it by no wise proper for him . now upon the whole matter , it was thought fit they should be sent to the nunnery of bridewel , rather than to tyburn ; and so they were ordered to the hemp-office : where possibly if they amend not their lives , they may help provide their own destiny . several less remarkable occurrences , being confined to a sheet , we are forced to omit . but in all there were fifteen condemned to dye , ten men , and five women : whereof two , viz. the popish priest , and he for counterfeiting money to be hanged , drawn , and quartered : two for murther : one for robbery on the high-way ; the rest old incorrigible offenders , for several burglaries and felonies ; but one woman by a jury of matrons found quick with child . there were nineteen burnt in the hand for several offences within benefit of clergy ; that is to say , fourteen men and five women . one begg'd the favour of transportatiou , and obtaiit ; and two are to be whipt . finis . the arraignment, tryal, and condemnation of peter cooke, gent. for high-treason, in endeavouring to procure forces from france to invade this kingdom, and conspiring to levy war in this realm for assisting and abetting the said invasion, in order to the deposing of his sacred majesty, king william, and restoring the late king who upon full evidence was found guilty at the sessions-house in the old-baily, on wednesday the th of may, . and received sentence the same day. with the learned arguments both of the king's and prisoner's council upon the new act of parliament for regulating tryals in cases of treason. perused by the lord chief justice treby, and the council present at the tryal. cooke, peter, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the arraignment, tryal, and condemnation of peter cooke, gent. for high-treason, in endeavouring to procure forces from france to invade this kingdom, and conspiring to levy war in this realm for assisting and abetting the said invasion, in order to the deposing of his sacred majesty, king william, and restoring the late king who upon full evidence was found guilty at the sessions-house in the old-baily, on wednesday the th of may, . and received sentence the same day. with the learned arguments both of the king's and prisoner's council upon the new act of parliament for regulating tryals in cases of treason. perused by the lord chief justice treby, and the council present at the tryal. cooke, peter, d. . england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (middlesex) [ ], , [ ] p. printed for benjamin tooke at the middle-temple-gate in fleetstreet, london : mdcxcvi. [ ] with a preliminary order to print. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng lancashire plot, - -- early works to . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the arraignment , tryal , and condemnation of peter cooke , gent. for high-treason , in endeavouring to procure forces from france to invade this kingdom , and conspiring to levy war in this realm for assisting and abetting the said invasion , in order to the deposing of his sacred majesty , king william , and restoring the late king. who upon full evidence was found guilty at the sessions-house in the old-baily , on wednesday the th of may , . and received sentence the same day . with the learned arguments both of the king 's and prisoner's council upon the new act of parliament for regulating tryals in cases of treason . perused by the lord chief justice treby , and the council present at the tryal . london : printed for benjamin tooke at the middle-temple-gate in fleetstreet . mdcxcvi . die sabbati nono maii anno domini , . annoque regni gulielmi tertii , octavo . at the sessions-house in the old-baily , london . dominus rex versus petrum cook. this day being appointed for the tryal of mr. peter cook , upon an indictment of high treason found against him by the grant jury for the city of london , upon the commission of goal-delivery of newgate , holden for the said city , upon which indictment he had been arraigned , and upon pleading not guilty , issue had been joyned , and the court having been adjourn'd unto this day for the tryal for publick proclamation in usual manner , the court was resumed , and the names of the men returned to serve on the jury , having been called over according to the pannel , and the defaulters recorded ; the court proceeded as follows . cl. of arr. set peter cook , the prisoner , to the bar : ( which was done . ) you the prisoner at the bar , those men that you shall hear called , and personally appear , are to pass between our sovereign lord the king and you , upon tryal of your life and death ; if therefore you will challenge them , or any of them , your time is to speak to them as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . cook. sir , i desire you would not name them too fast , for my eyes are very bad . cl. of arr. john ewer . cook. who must i apply my self to , sir ? i desire to know , whether he is a freeholder in london ? cl. of arr. i know nothing to the contrary , sir , he is returned as such by the sheriff ; you had best ask him himself , he can best tell . cook. are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. ewer . yes , sir , i am a freeholder . cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of arr. henry sherbrook . cook. sir , are you a freeholder in london ? mr. sherbrook . yes , sir , i am . cook. i challenge you . — no , sir , i beg your pardon , i do not challenge you . cl. of arr. then hold mr. sherbrook the book : ( which was done . ) look upon the prisoner : you shall well and truly try and true deliverance make between our sovereign lord the king , and the prisoner at the bar , whom you shall have in charge , according to your evidence , so help you god. cl. of arr. joseph billers . cook. are you a freeholder , sir , in london ? mr. billers . yes , i am . cook. i challenge you , sir. cl. of arr. john brand. cook. pray , sir , don't go too fast ; are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. brand. i am no freeholder in london . l. c. j. treby . what say you , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. my lord , i would not have any body that is not a freeholder serve ; so he was set by . cl. of arr. william hall. mr. hall. my lord , i am no freeholder in london . l. c. j. treby . why , what estate have you ? mr. hall. what i have , is in leases . l. c. j. treby . what , leases for years , or leases for lives ? mr. hall. leases for years , sir. l. c. j. treby . then he cannot serve upon the jury . cl. of arr. edward leeds . cook. hold , sir , let me see ; are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. leeds . yes , sir. cook. sir , i challenge you then . cl. of arr. thomas clark. cook. hold , sir , i pray let me look upon my paper . i challenge him . a st●nder●by , he does not appear . cl. of arr. nathan green. cook. where is he , sir ? are you a freeholder ? mr. green. yes , i am , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. thomas emes . cook. are you a freeholder , sir ? mr. emes . yes , i am . cook. were you one of sir john friend's jury ? mr. emes . yes , i was . cook. then i challenge you for cause , and i give you my reason . mr. serj. darnall . i pray , let us hear your reason ; give your reason for your challenge . cook. it is for being of sir john friend's jury . mr. serj. darnall . then you challenge him for cause : cook. yes , that he was of sir john friend's jury . l. c. j. treby . well , brother darnall , how is that a cause of challenge ? you are the prisoner's council , let us hear what you say to it . mr. serj. darnall . my lord , what we have to say to it , is this ; here are some persons returned upon this pannel , that were formerly jurors in a cause that was try'd for the same species of treason that this gentleman , the prisoner , is charged with in this indictment ; and i think the witnesses at that tryal did mention in their evidence my client , as being present at those very consults , about which they gave their evidence ; these gentlemen gave credit to those witnesses , and found the verdict against the person then accused . we humbly submit it to your lordship and the court , whether we may not for this cause challenge this person as not indifferent , it being for the same cause and consult , that the other was try'd for . mr. att. gen. sure mr. serjeant is not in earnest in this objection . mr. serj. darnall . my client thinks it a very good objection , that he is not indifferent , and i desire he should be satisfied in it . mr. att. gen. if he thinks so , he may except against him , but if he insists upon it as a cause of challenge , we desire you would put the case , and my lords the judges determine it . mr. serj. darnall . i have told you what the case is . l. c. j. treby . but you hear the king's counsel insist upon it , to have you make it out in point of law. mr. serj. darnall . my lord , i have stated the case as my client desired , and we submit it to you . l. c. j. treby . well , there is nothing in it . mr. serj. darnall . then my client , if he will not have him serve , must challenge him peremptorily ; which he did . cl. of arr. francis byer . cook. sir , are you a freeholder ? mr. byer . yes , i am . cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. james denew . mr. denew . i am no freeholder . cl. of arr. henry hunter . cook. hold , hold , my lord , i challenge him as being one of sir john freind 's jury . mr. baker . nay , that was not allowed in mr. emes's case ; but you challenged him peremptorily , and so you must now , if you have a mind to it . cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. john hall. cook. are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. hall. yes , i am , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john cullum . cook. sir , are you a freeholder in london ? mr. cullum . yes , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john cox. mr. cox. my lord , i am no freeholder in london . cl. of arr. john hedges . cook. hold , i pray , sir , let me look upon my paper ; sir , are you a freeholder in london ? mr. hedges . yes , sir , i am . cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. thomas james . mr. james . my lord , my name is not thomas . mr. sh. buckingham . he is returned , it seems , by a wrong name ; we did not know it . mr. serj. darnall . then you cannot swear him . cl. of arr. thomas poole . cook. are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. poole . yes , sir. cook. i challenge him , as being of sir john friend's jury . mr. att. gen. that has been over-ruled already . cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. peter parker . cook. are you a freeholder in london ? mr. parker . yes , sir , i am . cook. i challenge you , sir , as being one of sir john friend's jury . mr. baker . nay , you can't offer it again . cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. george grove . cook. where is he ? are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. grove . yes , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. nathanael wyersdell . cook. are you a freeholder in london ? mr. wyersdell . yes , sir , i am . cook. i challenge you , sir. cl. of arr. samuel blewit . cook , hold , pray , are you a freeholder , sir ? mr. blewit . yes , i am . cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. john wolfe . cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. joseph wolfe . he did not appear , and was said to be no freeholder . cl. of arr. william smith . cook. are you a freeholder , sir ? mr. smith . yes , i am . cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of arr. edward fenwick . cook. are you a freeholder , sir ? mr. fenwick . yes , sir , i am . cook. i do not challenge him . cl. of arr. then swear mr. fenwick . ( which was done . ) benjamin hooper . cook. stay , sir , pray stay a little , where is he ? cl. of arr. there he is , sir. cook. which is the gentleman ? are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. hooper . yes , sir. cook. i challenge you . mr. hooper . i thank you , sir. cl. of arr. nathanael long. cook. are you a freeholder , sir ? mr. long. yes , sir. cook. i challenge him , as being of sir john friend's jury . cl. of arr. the court has adjudged that no cause of challenge , therefore i take no notice of it , but as a peremptory challenge . cl. of arr. richard chiswell . cook. are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. chiswell . yes , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john child . cook. hold , pray , a moment ; i have not crost these last in my paper , but i challenge this man , being of sir john friend's jury . mr. baker . you have had that answer'd over and over again , as no objection ; it is nothing but a peremptory challenge . cl. of arr. william walker . mr. walker . i was one of sir john friend's jury . cook. i challenge him for the same reason . mr. att. gen. but that is no reason at all . cook. then i challenge him . cl. of arr. john wells . cook. sir , are you a freeholder ? mr. wells . yes , sir , i am . cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of arr. john hibbert . cook which is he , sir ? cl. of arr. he stands upon your left hand ; the man in the black peruke . cook. are you a freeholder , sir ? mr. hibbert . yes , i am , sir. cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. daniel wray . cook. stay , sir , are you mr. wray ? mr. wray . yes , sir , my name is wray . cook. are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. wray . yes , sir. cook. i challenge you . mr. wray . i thank you , sir. cl. of arr. john pettit . cook. which is he ? mr. pettit . i am the man , sir. cook. are you a freeholder in london , sir ? mr. pettit . yes , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john sherbrook . cook. i challenge him , as being one of sir john friend's jury . mr. baker . but you have heard that denied to be an exception over and over . cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. stephen blackwell . cook. are you a freeholder , sir ? mr. blackwell . yes , i am . cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. william hatch . cook. pray give me time to mark them ; pray , who is this man you now call ? cl. of arr. william hatch . cook. sir , are you a freeholder ? mr. hatch . yes , i am . cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of arr. henry beadle . cook. are you a freeholder , sir ? mr. beadle . yes , i am . cook. i do not except against him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. john stredwick . mr. stredwick . my lord , as i apprehend , i am no freeholder . l. c. j. treby . why do you apprehend so ? mr. stredwick . it is my wife's estate , not mine . cl. of arr. then you wife has a freehold , it seems . mr. stredwick . yes , she has . l. c. j. treby . that is freehold enough ; for you have an estate for your wife's life . mr. baker . and after that too , for it is not given over to any body else , and she won't give it from him . cook. sir , are you a freeholder in london or no ? mr. stredwick . i apprehend , sir , i am not . mr. baker . he says he has an estate for his wife's life . cl. of arr. then he is a freeholder , what do you say to him ? cook. are you positive you are a freeholder in london upon your word ? mr. stredwick . i think not . mr. baker . why , your wife's estate is your's for your life . cook. my lord chief justice , if your lordship pleases , here is a man that says positively he thinks he is not freeholder , i desire your lordship's judgment , whether he be a freeholder or not ? l. c. j. treby . why , let him put his case , if he make a doubt of it . mr. stredwick . i am not possest of any estate my self . l. c. j. treby . but is not your wife an inheritrix ? mr. stredwick . yes , my lord , she is . l. c. j. treby . then you are seized of a freehold in her right ; and , mr. cook , your own council will tell you and satisfy you , that that is a freehold sufficient for this service . mr. baker . his wife's father settled it upon her and her heirs . l. c. j. treby . no question , it is a sufficient freehold if the wife be living . mr. baker . yes , she is . cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. william prince . cook. i challenge him , as being of sir john friends jury . mr. prince . i thank you , sir. cl. of arr. john simmons . mr. att. gen. we challenge him for the king. cl. of arr. robert white . cook. are you a freeeholder , sir. mr. white . yes , i think so . cook. pray tell me whether you are , or not . mr. white . indeed i think so , sir. cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. edward brewster . cook. where is mr. brewster ? are you a freeholder , sir , in london ? mr. brewster . yes , sir. cook. i challenge him . pray sir , i desire to know how many i have challenged . mr. baker . you have challenged thirty three . cook. how many besides those that are of sir john friend's jury ? mr. baker . you have but two more to challenge , sir. mr. serj. darnall . i thought you had heard the opinion of the court , mr. cook , that it will not hold as a cause of challenge that he was of sir john friena's jury , therefore those are all reckoned among the peremptory challenges , and you can challenge but two more in all . l. c. j. treby . not without cause , but as many more as you can have good cause against . cl. of arr. john reynolds . cook. i except not against him . ( he was sworn ) . cl. of arr. joseph brookbank . cook. i have nothing to say to him . ( he was sworn ) . cl. of arr. adam bellamy . mr. bellaney . my lord , i am no freeholder . l. c. j. treby . why , what estate have you ? mr. baker . he has estate enough , i know , for value . mr. bellamy . i have only a lease . l. c. j. treby . a lease for years ? mr. bellamy . yes , my lord. cl. of arr. david grill. mr. grill. i am no freeholder , my lord. cl. of arr. william rawlins . cook. i accept of him . ( he was sworn ) . cl. of arr. samuel roycroft . cook. are you a freeholder , sir ? mr. roycroft . yes , sir. cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. thomas parker . cook. how many have i to challenge , do you say ? cl. of arr. but one sir ; what say you to mr. parker ? cook. i do not except against him . ( he was sworn ) . cl. of arr. james robinson . cook. i have nothing to say to him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. joseph morewood . cook. i challenge him . mr. baker . you have challenged all your number now . cl. of arr. my lord , we have gone through the pannel , we must now call the defaulters again . thomas clark. mr. clark. here. sir b. shower . was he here when he was called over ? mr. arr. gen. that 's nothing , he is here now . sir b. shower . but if there be a default of the jury , and the king's council have challenged any one , they ought to shew their cause ; therefore we desire that they may shew their cause why they challeng'd mr. simmons . l. c. j. treby . the king has power to challenge without shewing cause till the pannel be gone through ; but if there be a default of jurors when the king challenges , the king's council must shew cause . sir b. shower . here is a default of jurors , my lord. l. c. j. trebr . no body is recorded absolutely a defaulter , if he comes in time enough to be sworn . cl. of arr. swear mr. clark. ( which was done ) . l. c. j. treby . when there is an apparent default of jurors , then they must shew their cause ; but here his appearance , it seems , was recorded , and so he was no defaulter ; and you might have challenged him for cause still . cl. of arr. james dry. mr. dry. my name is not james . serj. darnall . then you cannot swear him : here are three mistaken in their names . l. c. j. treby . that is in the copy in your brief , brother , it may be . mr. serj. darnall . no , my lord , the officers admit it . mr. att. gen. my lord , we desire those gentlemen , that say they are no freeholders , may be sworn to that matter . ( which was accordingly done . ) and several of them that had staid , did deny the having of any freehold upon oath , and some were gone away . l. c. j. treby . pray take care to estreat the issues , and return greater issues the next time . mr. j. rokeby . truly the court must put some great penalty upon them for trifling with the court in respect of their duty that they owe to the king and country , in regard of their estates . cl. of arr. pray , let the officers be called who summoned this jury , mr. sheriff . ( which was done . ) and they examined concerning their summoning those who made default , and the issues of those who were recorded as defaulters were ordered to be estreated . then the court not being able to proceed for want of a jury , they ordered another pannel to be ready against wednesday next , to which time at seven in the morning , the court was by proclamation adjourned . die mercurii decimo tertio maii , anno dom. . the court being met according to the adjournment , the pannel was called over , and the defaulters recorded , and several excused for absence upon sickness , and being out of town before the summons . then mr. serjeant darnall desired before the jury was called , to move something against the pannel : and made his motion thus ; mr. serj. darnall . if your lordship pleases , i have somewhat to offer to you before you go upon this new pannel ; and i confess , i think it is my duty to the court , as well as to the prisoner , to state the case as it is , and submit it upon the reason of law , and the authorities that i shall offer , whether the proceedings upon this new pannel will not be erroneous ? my lord , the question is , whether , as this case is , the prisoner has had a copy of the pannel of his jury by which he is to be tried , according as the late law requires , he had a copy of the former pannel , and upon that pannel nine were sworn , and their names all entred upon record , and made parcel of the record . thereof now the question is , whether he can be tried upon a new pannel ? we are in a case that rarely happens , and in a case of life and death . i know your lordship will be careful not to vary from the ancient practice , or to make a new president , because of the consequences . it must be agreed in this case , that the old pannel upon which the prisoner took his challenges , and of which nine was sworn , is parcel of the record . now , my lord , to add a new pannel , upon which twelve more shall be sworn , and all this appear upon record , and the prisoner tried upon the last pannel , will not this be error ? i offer this before the jury be called and sworn , because we desire to be fairly tried ; and we design to rest upon the fact in this case . if it should appear , that he is tried upon a pannel that is unduly made and return'd , that will be of evil consequence one way or other . and can this be duly made , if another appear upon record before it ? and can any body say it is quasht or abated ? or can it be so ? my lord , in stamford's pleas of the crown , p. . it is said , if any of the pannel dye after the return , and before their appearance , so that there are not enough left to make the jury , yet the pannel shall not be quasht , nor is it ●bated , but it is cause to grant a tales . and certainly , my lord , it is a stronger case , when by reason of challenges , which the law gives the prisoner liberty to make , there are not enough left , that there shall not be a new pannel , but that a tales shall be granted ; for if a new pannel might be made , it cannot appear who were challenged , or who were admitted . and if your lordship pleases to consider the intention of the law in giving the prisoner power to challenge , is , that he may have an indifferent jury ; but that would be prevented by such a practice as this ; for when it has been discovered upon the old pannel whom the prisoner chose , and whom he challenged upon the new pannel , the persons challenged may be set first , and those that were chosen may be omitted , or so postponed , that none of them whom he thought equal to try him , can serve upon the jury . and truly , my lord , if i am rightly informed , that is the case upon this new pannel , some of those that were admitted and sworn are left out , and most of them , i think , are put last in the pannel whom he thought equal men to try him , and all those whom he challenged peremptorily , are the first men in the pannel . this , my lord , is the case before you , and if this be admitted , the use and end of challenges , which are in be-benefit and favour of life wou'd be defeated . and for authorities in this case , besides the reason and ground of the law , many cannot be expected , because it is a fact that rarely happens . i find none of the ancient practicers ever knew it , but i find that a tales ought to be granted , so it is said in several books , as in stamford , . . when ever upon the principal pannel , all the jury does not appear , or so many of them do not , that there are not enough left to make a jury , which is our very case ; then in such case the pannel shall not be quasht or abated ; but a tales granted , so is h. . . there the question was , whether there should be a greater number returned upon the tales then were in the principal pannel , and there the difference was insisted upon , and agreed , that where it is between party and party , where life is not concerned , it shall not , but where life is concerned , and the prisoner has power to challenge peremptorily , there the judge may award as many upon the tales as he pleases , that there may be enough to remain after the challenges ; so that if this old pannel be not abated , and cou'd not be quasht , and a tales might be granted to consist of any number , i conceive the prisoner cannot be tryed upon this new pannel , but it will be erroneous ; and i humbly submit to your lordships , whether you will proceed upon it . sir b. shower , if your lordship pleases to spare me a word of the same side , with submission . we think there ought to have been an habeas corpora , with a tales , such as had been before sworn , being to be part of the jury now , and that is the proper way to bring the prisoner to his tryal in this case ; the kings counsel cannot expect we shou'd produce many presidents , for i believe this is the second of the kind that ever happened , at least , within memory , that a tryal in treason was put off pro defectu juratorum , though i have a president that i think is express in the case ; but we insist in the first place , that a tales does lie at common-law , in the case of life ; and so the book that mr. serjeant cited in stamford , is express ; and then we say , that the answer which we expect , that we are now before justices of goal delivery , is not sufficient , because the justices of goal-delivery , though they do not usually award process by way of writ , but before their coming , they command the sheriff to have his county ready there , and so in fact , it is a parol precept ; yet when it is return'd , then it is entred upon record , either preceptum est vice comiti quod venire faceret ; or , ideo veniat jurata ; and the jury are entred upon record : so that take it to be before justices of goal-delivery , yet the sheriff having returned a pannel , and that being upon the file , as appears before your eyes , in obedience to your command , and that copy of the pannel being delivered to us two days before saturday last , we humbly submit it to your lordship , whether by force of the common-law , and of the late act of parliament , we ought not to be tryed by that pannel ; we insist upon it , that the act intends , and expresly designed , that not only the prisoner shou'd have a copy of the pannel that the sheriff return'd at any time after , but that he shou'd be tryed by the pannel that we had a copy of at first ; for it is not said a copy , toties quoties the court shall think fit to award a precept for a new pannel , but the words of the act are a copy of the jury duly returned by the sheriff ; now this we had , and your lordship knows it is not a return'd pannel till it be in court , and then it becomes part of the record : my lord , i do agree the justices in some cases have quasht and set aside pannels and juries , and ordered new ones ; and i confess there was an extraordinary case in the time of king charles the second , which was upon the indictment against whitebread , where , after the jury charged , and evidence given , the jury was discharged , and a new pannel made the next sessions , upon which whitebread was tryed and convicted ; how just or regular that was , i will not insist upon now , but i am sure there were great complaints of that practice , and few presidents can be shewn of the like ; but besides the parties themselves waved it there , no objection being taken against it , but we insist upon it in this case , that this being upon record , is part of the record , and so appears to the court ; if the record indeed were to be made up upon a writ of error , perhaps it wou'd be no error ▪ because it may be they wou'd leave it out ; but here it appears there was a pannel of record before you , and this must either be quasht , or altered , or continued on by process , you have power to quash it , it it be unduely returned by the sheriff . if there be any evil practices for procuring the pannel , either by the prosecutor , or the prisoner , if there be no freeholders return'd , or the same happen in any other respect not to be legally done according to the command or precept of the court ; but because there is a default of appearance of jurors , no pannel was ever quasht upon that account ; then say we , if it be not quasht , this pannel must continue . for , what shall become of it , why should it not continue ? it is not within the act of parliament , that gives the justices power to make a new pannel , as in the case of a grand jury , when they are guilty of concealments , or refuse to find bills upon great evidence , but we have no such case before you , nor do i know any such rule as can reach this ; so that we take it , there is no difference between this case , as before justices of goal-delivery , and other justices ; that process does lie against the jury that does not appear even in treason and felony , there is no dispute , and it is very properly so , if it be before commissioners of oyer and terminer ; first a venire facias , and then upon default , a habeas corpora , that is the proper way ; then take it before justices of goal-delivery , there it is entered upon record , preceptum est vice comiti . &c. and here is a pannel returned by vertue of this precept , and some of the jury do not appear , and so there are not enough to try the prisoner after a great many sworn and challenged , and this entered upon record . what shall become of that pannel , it cannot be quasht , nor abated ? my lord , there is a case that does warrant that opinion of a tales in a case of felony ; and if there may be a tales , then there may be an habeas corpora , and there are directions how the jurors shall be sworn again , upon their appearance on the habeas corpora ; and that is wharton's case in telverton , . mr. j. powell , jun. do not dispute that , it is plain , that a tales does lie in felony , upon a commission of oyer and terminer ; but can you shew me . sir bartholomew , any where , that upon a commission of goal-delivery a tales does lie ? sir b. shower , sir. i can only shew the reason of the law , and i cannot find that does contradict what we now contend for . mr. j. powell ▪ i tell you sir bartholomew , there is no tales but with a habeas corpora to bring in the first jurors , and that cannot be upon a parol precept on a commission of oyer and terminer , there goes a venire facias , which is a writ upon which the habeas corpora may be grounded , but there is no venire facias upon a commission of goal-delivery . sir b. shower , why shou'd there not be a precept in nature of an habeas corpora for a jury return'd , upon a precept as well as on a writ ? mr. j. powell , no , it never was done , the commission of goal-delivery 〈◊〉 a general commission that does authorize the sheriff to impannel , and ●ave a jury ready at the day appointed , for the delivery of the goal , to try the prisoners ; it doth import in it self a general precept for that purpose , before issue joyned , which the sheriff cannot do in the case of a commission of cyer and terminer , but must have a writ of venire facias , after issue joyned . mr. sol. gen. in all the cases that they cite , there is a writ of venire facias , upon which the after process , by writ , may be grounded ; but here is no foundation for any future process by writ , because it is only by parol precept . mr. att. gen. sure these gentlemen don't think what they say , the pannel is not part of the record , and there is no record of it , nothing but the clerks entry in a paper , or note , for his own memorandum . mr. j. rokeby . brother darnal , have you any book that says , justices of goal-delivery must award a tales upon default of the jurors . mr. serj darnal , no my lord , i cannot say so . l c. j. treby , suppose all the jury had been challenged , or dy'd . mr. j. powell , there cou'd be no quashing of it , but it wou'd fall of it self , for want of a jury . mr. j. rokeby , if , according to your doctrine , we must keep to the first pannel , the consequence wou'd be , there wou'd be no tryal at all . sir b. shower , stamford makes no difference that i can see . mr. att. gen. but these gentlemen have been told the difference , upon which this matter is grounded , a tales cannot be without a habeas corpora , and a habeas corpora cannot be without a venire facias , but a commission of goal delivery cannot award a venire facias , because that is not to be awarded till issue joyned . mr. b. powis . the return of this pannel before justices of goal-delivery , is an act of the sheriff , by vertue of the commission , and nothing appears of record till the jury are sworn . mr. j. rokeby , they object that it is upon record l. c. j. treby . by the record , they mean the clerk's note . mr. att gen. if you please to look upon the indictment , there is no entry at all , and that is all the record before you mr. j. powell , does it appear upon record , that nine were sworn . mr. baker , no , there is nothing upon the record . c. of . arr. it does not appear till the record is made up , and nothing is entered till twelve are sworn . mr. serj. darnal . there will be a great inconvenience , if a pannel may be changed at any time . mr. j powel , this is a case that never happened before , and may be never may again . sir b. shower , the law will hold the same , in case it does appear upon record , as well as where it does not ; but we say , a pannel return'd in court is a record . mr. j. powell , no , it will not , because , when a jury does appear , and the twelve are sworn , then it becomes parcel of the record ; and therefore whitebread's case was quite another case , and was indeed held to be an extraordinary case , but that comes not up to this , for there a full jury was sworn , and evidence given . mr. serj. darnal , it may be the same jury will not be returned : mr. j. powell ▪ but if you have a copy of the jury , you are at no mischief . mr. serj. darnal , some that were in the former pannel are quite left out . mr. sher. buck. there are none left out , but what were not freeholders ▪ that i know of . mr. b. powis , he says the fact is not true as you have alledged it . mr. sher. buck. and mr. serjeant darnal has been pleased to reflect upon us , as if we had packt this jury , by altering the places of the names , which , my lord , we do utterly deny , and we only left out those that were not free-holders . mr. b. powis . the sheriff sayes he has not postponed any of them , and only left out those , that were not free-holders . mr. ser. darnal . if the law were as plain with us as the fact in that case , we should have a very good case of it . mr. sher. buckingham . mr. serjeant i have both the pannels here , they may be compared . mr. ser. darnal . i said no harm , mr. sheriff , nor meant any reflection upon you . mr. sher. buckingham . mr. serjeant was pleased to say , the excepted men were put in the front , and those that were sworn were put last . l. c. j. treby . there is nothing at all in the objection . mr. j. powel . really , because it was opened as a reflection , it will be proper for the sheriff to clear it . mr. sher. buckingham . my lord , the answer i give to it , is , that particularly one that was sworn last time , is now at the very beginning of the pannel , and in general they are mixt promiscuously , without any design or study in the least . he sayes we have left out those that served before . i solemnly protest , i know not one man returned upon the last pannel that is left out , unless it appeared that he is no free-holder , and we had no reason to put in them , that we knew could not serve . mr. serj. darnal . that can't appear to us , that they are not free-holders . mr. j. rokeby . but it appears to him , and therefore he did well to leave them out . mr. sher buckingham . what i say , i am ready to give upon my oath . mr. serj. darnal . i say there is one henry beadle left out , and he was one that was sworn . mr. sher. buckingham . i will not say for a particular man , i protest , that i did not know he was left out . if it be so , it was by mistake ; for i know mr. beadle very well , and i take him to be an honest man , and very well affected to the government , as any man. mr. serj. darnal . we desire to be tryed by men that are honest and well affected to the government . mr. sher. buckingham . there you have of them , sir. mr. serj. darnal those that were sworn are put last of all , and there is not above one of them that is within possibility of coming on again . mr. sher. buckingham . it will appear by mr. cooks challenges , and the other pannel , that they stood late before , and thomas clark , who was sworn the last time , stands tenth man upon the pannel . mr. ser. darnal . he was sworn after we had gone through the pannel , and took all our challenges , not appearing at first . mr. sher. buckingham . i tell you they stand for the most part as they did , for ought i know . mr. ser. darnal . there is but one in threescore and ten , that can be sworn now , of them that were sworn before , and there were nine of them then sworn . mr. attor . gen. that is a mistake . indeed there are a great many added to the pannel , because there was a defect the last time , and therefore now they may perhaps stand later . mr. ser. darnal . i do not speak to reflect upon the sheriffs : i go according to my instructions . mr. j. powel . if it had been so it had been well enough for you must be contented , the court must take it as the sheriff returns it , and you have a copy of it . mr. att. gen. here are four of them that were sworn before , that stood above sixty off in the old pannel . mr. sher. buck. the first man that was sworn , mr. sherbrook , stands within the first twelve now ( as well as before . ) mr. j. powell , if they had been all new , there had been nothing in that . mr. j. rokeby . truly , i can't see but that the sheriff hath done like an equal , just , fair , and honest officer . mr. att. gen. they may challenge as they will. l. c. j. treby . you are to consider , that this happens , because you run out as far as your utmost number , that time you challenged thirty five peremptorily , and divers others for cause ; so as not to leave enough for a jury , and from that alone arose a necessity of increasing the number of the pannel . mr. serj. darnal , it was our client that challenged them , we do not advise him whom to challenge . mr. j rokeby , but you must take the consequence of it , which causes this addition to the pannel . l c. j. treby , what do you complain of ? they that are returned , are put in the same order as they were before ; they that were sworn , were ( for the most part ) late in the pannel then , and so they are now . i do not find any thing done to the prejudice of the prisoner . mr. serj darnal , if the christian names had not been mistaken , there had been perhaps enough to have been sworn . l. c. j treby , that 's a good argument for a new pannel , because the christian names were mistaken before . mr. j powell , it was by defect of jurors , and therefore there was an absolute necessity of a new pannel . l. c. j treby , i am of the same opinion . wharton's case is well known . it was much cited , as to another point in bushel's case . it was a tryal at the king's bench bar at westminster by a jury of kent , upon an indictment of murther . and i think you say the case of h. . was between party and party in appeal . and i believe stamford's discourse , in the place cited , relates chiefly to appeals . i shall not deny that a tales may possibly be upon an indictment before justices of oyer and terminer . though 't is not usual , nor do you shew , or our experienced clerks know any such president . i agree , that in the mentioned cases , a tales was proper . for , in both those cases ( viz. of appeal and indictment removed into the king's bench ) the process for the jury was , as it ought to be , by writs of venire facias , &c. upon which a full jury not appearing , there must be a tales . but in proceeding to tryal before justices of oyer and terminer , on such indictment as is here , though i will not say but they may proceed by writ of venire facias : yet i do say , that the more known course is by precept , in nature of a venire facias . and the usage is , that after ( and never before ) the prisoner hath pleaded not guilty , there goes a precept to the sheriff under the seals of the said justices of oyer and terminer , returnable at such day as they shall adjourn to , for returning a jury to try it . ( as was done lately , upon advice , in the case of rookwood , &c. ) and upon the return of that , if , after challenges , there are not enough left to make a jury , whether those justices shall issue a precept in nature of a habeas corpora , or distringas with a tales , or another precept in the same form as before , and without taking notice of the former , is a question not in judgment before us . for , we are about proceeding to a tryal on an indictment in this court of goal-delivery , ( which is the court wherein generally all capital crimes are tryed , as well at this place , as at the assizes . ) and , i think , here cannot be a tales . i am sure it is not necessary . for , first , here is never any writ of venire facias , &c. secondly , nor ever a precept for returing a jury to try a particular issue . but this court takes the pannels of jurys returned by the sheriff without any particular precept to him . the course of proceeding by vertue of a commission of goal-delivery , which is the law in this case , is this , viz. there is , antecedent to the coming of the justices , a general commandment , or precept made in writing , to the sheriff by the said justices , to return juries against their coming , for the trying of all and singular prisoners in their goal , whether they have pleaded before , or shall after . and for that purpose it requires the sheriff to summon , out of all parts of his county , whence the prisoners come , a great number of freeholders , not a kin to the prisoners , to be at the time and place appointed for holding the court. the sheriff , by vertue of this general previous precept , summoneth many for jurors , and prepares divers several pannels of their names , either at first , or afterwards , as appears necessary , and returneth and delivereth in one or more of these pannels from time to time , as the court does need , and call for any . this , we know , in fact , is frequently done where the sessions of goal-delivery lasts several days , and there is occasion . though , in supposition of law , all these pannels are returned , and the tryals thereupon had the first day of the sessions ; and in law it is intended to be but that one day only . the return of this precept is thus , viz. executio istius precepti patet in quibusdam pann●llis huic precepto annexis , and the pannels are annexed , and there are often filed here divers pannels upon the same general precept , though sometimes but one. these pannels are thus delivered into court , and a jury taken out of them , as there is occasion , only upon a parol award , that is , barely the court 's calling for the same , without writ or precept in writing , or giving any day for the doing it . for , this proceeding is immediatè , for the speedy delivery of prisoners ; and the entry after setting forth that the prisoner being arraigned , pleads not guilty , is ideo immediatè veniat inde jurata ; or fiat inde jurata . and this court 's being instituted for the speedy delivery of prisoners , and warnings being given long before , of their coming , are the causes why it has been always held without doubt , that justices of goal-delivery might inquire and try the same day . if it fall out that , by reason of defaults , deaths , or challenges , there cannot be a full jury had out of a pannel , ( as here there wanted three ) which is an accident that the court cannot know , till they have gone through the pannel ; i think in this case , that pannel goes for nothing , is utterly lost and void , and to be cast away or cancelled ; for , it does not answer the award of the court , which was to have a jury to try the prisoner presently . it is meant an effectual pannel that should afford a full jury of twelve unacceptionable men. and every pannel that comes short in this , is to be laid aside as a void thing . and then the court takes and makes use of another immediately , which may not be deficient , whereby the award is observed , and the present service dispatched : object . it is objected , that the old pannel is parcel of the record in court , and , upon that , nine were sworn , and their names are all enter'd upon that record ; and now to add a new pannel , upon which twelve shall be sworn and try the prisoner ; all this appearing upon record , it will be error . answ . this objection stands upon two mistakes , both arising from not observing the difference between precepts and pannels , in a court of goal-delivery , and venire facias's , or precepts and pannels in other courts . . it supposes that here will be two pannels , which will appear to relate to the tryal of this prisoner mr. cook. . it supposes that both these will become records , or parcel of the record in court. if either of these suppositions prove to be a mistake , it will destroy the objection . i think both are mistakes . . here is not , nor will be , nay , there ought not to be any pannel purporting to be returned for the trying of mr. cook , or any particular prisoner or prisoners . for , the precept in this case is ( not like a venire facias which alwaies respects a particular issue between parties therein named , but ) general , requiring the sheriff to return jurors enough to try all the prisoners , not naming any . and the return , which is the answer to it by a pannel or pannels , is as general ; the title of every pannel , being nomina jurator ad triandum pro domino rege , and no more ; or nomina juratorum ad triandum inter dom. regem & prisonar ▪ ad barram , without naming any of the prisoners . and it were absurd if it should be otherwise . for , the precept goes to the sheriff before the sessions , and his return is supposed to be made at the beginning of the sessions , when it is not known who of the prisoners will be indicted ; or , if indicted , who will plead not guilty , or guilty , or a pardon , or other plea. when , for the tryal of a particular prisoner ( or divers prisoners that are thought fit to be put upon tryal by the same jury ) a jury is about to be taken out of any pannel , the clerk , as he goes along , may take a note in paper of the name of every one that is sworn , or he may ( and usually doth ) write , jur. on the said pannel against the name of every one sworn . but this note or mark is no part of the record ; it is not ex institutione legis ▪ it is but a voluntary memorandum , for the help of his memory . if he could safely trust to the strength of his memory , he need not write at all on this occasion ; i mean , not till a full jury is sworn , who try the prisoner . but then , indeed , the clerk must , ( from his notes , or memory ) write the names of all the twelve , entring them on the record of the indictment , in this manner , viz. just after the ideo immediatè veniat inde jurata coram prefatis justic ▪ &c. adding , et juratores jurate illius , &c. scil. a. b. &c. dicunt , &c. and it is by this only , that the names of those that are sworn , come to be of record ; and it is this entry upon the body of the indictment alone , that is the record , that shews who were jurors sworn , to try this , or that , or other prisoner , or prisoners . so that , if the old pannel were filed , and were a record , as the prisoner's council would suppose , yet it would not thereby be made appear , that the said pannel was returned , or used for , or in order to the tryal of this prisoner . . the old pannel is not filed among the records of the court , nor ought to be . when such a pannel does not produce a jury , the clerks may and use to throw it by , as a useless thing . but , however they use it , we cannot allow it to be a record . it was received de bene esse ; it is abortive and comes to nothing . and it is not every thing that passeth in court in order to a record , that comes to be so . a frivolous plea , that is rejected , is not recorded . a presentment or bill of indictment , before it is found , is not a record ▪ and if an ignoramus be returned upon a bill of indictment , it never can be a record . and , thereupon , the clerks do sometimes throw it away , tho sometimes they keep it and put it on the file , only taking care to cross it , but if they do forget to cross it , yet it is not a record . by all this it is apparent how great the difference is between a precept and pannels in this court , and a venire facias and a pannel returned thereupon , which is ever issued after issue joyned , and doth alwayes mention the particular parties and matter it relates to , and is a record , and a ground for an h●beas corpora wich a tales , to be returnable at a certain future day . but , in this case in this court , it is quite otherwise . sir b. shower . then , my lord , since there is a new pannel , we hope we stand in the same condition upon the act of parliament , to take exceptions to the indictment before this jury sworn , as we did before the other jury sworn , since all that is quite set aside . l. ch. j. treby . yes truly , i think that may be . mr. attorn , gen. but these gentlemen would have done well to have given notice of their exceptions . sir b. shewer . my lord , i shall not stand upon an exception which i think i might take to the word turmas in the indictment , which whether it be troops of men , or horses , or what it is does not appear ; but , i think , we have an exception to the cheif overt act laid in the indictment , and that we presume , if my brief be right , will be sufficient to set aside this indictment : the indictment charges , that mr. cook did agree with other traytors to send mr. chernock into france to the said late king james , and king jam●s is never mentioned before in all the indictment , that is one exception that we have , that there is no late k. james mentioned in the indictment before this , if my copy be right , if it be otherwise , i suppose , they will find it : it is laid , that mr. cook did agree to send cherneck as a messenger into france , eidem nuper regi jacobo , and no rex jacobus mentioned before . then there is another exception , and that 's this , they come and say , that whereas there was a war with france , which is only in the indictment by way of recital or rehearsal of an history , quod cum per magnum tempus suit & mode fit , &c. mr. cook the premisses knowing , did compass and imag●ne the kings death , and did adhere to the said kings enemies such a day . now , my lord , i do think , that this can never be maintained , for that cum quoddam bellum , &c. being an historical narrative , is not positive enough : for adhereing to the kings enemies , being one of the treasons laid in the charge , there ought to be a war at the time of the adhesion , and of necessity then that ought to be presented by the jury ; for tho your lordships can judicially take notice of war or peace , yet you cannot take notice of it at such a particular time , and the reason is from the notion that is in my lord coke in his d , institutes , cap. treason . that adhesions to rebels is not adhesion to the kings enemies ; for a rebel is not said to be an enemy , but it must be adhereing to such an enemy , as between whom and the king there was war at that time , and consequently it ought to be more positively averred in the indictment , than it here is : but as to the overt act of mr. cooks consulting and agreeing to send chernock over to the said late king james to give him notice of what was agreed upon between them , when king james is not named before , that can never be got over with submission mr. baker . it is a mistake of your copy , sir bartholomew shower . mr. att. gen. i have looked into the record , and it is jacobo secundo nuper regi , not dicto . sir b. shower . then with submission , my lord , they cannot try us now , for we ought to have a true copy of the indictment . mr. baker . upon demand . but you never demanded it . sir barth . shower . yes , it was demanded . mr. baker . who demanded it ? sir b. shower . our sollicitor burleigh . mr. baker . no , he did not , i gave it him officiously . mr. att. gen. with submission , my lord , it is no objection at all , that their copy is wrong . that should have been before the prisoner had pleaded ; for the words of the act are , that he shall have it so many days before , to enable him to plead , and he cannot be put to plead unless he have a copy of the indictment so long before : and at rookwood's tryal it was said by the court it could not be alleged after plea pleaded . mr. burleigh . the copy was given to me publickly in court. mr. soll. gen. why did not your sollicitor compare it with the indictment ? mr. att. gen. they might have compared it by the clerk's reading it to them ; but they will not admit the prisoner's sollicitor to see the original , because the act expresly says they shall not have a copy of the witnesses names . sir b. shower . the officer is to deliver a true copy of the indictment . mr. att. gen. no ; the party is to demand it by himself or his agent , and then he is to have it ; and if he be denied he ought to apply himself to the court , who will order the delivery of it ; but we stand upon it that they cannot take this exception now after they have pleaded , for the intent of the copy is to enable him to plead . l. c. j. treby . the copy , by the act of parliament , is to be delivered to the prisoner , his attorney , agent or sollicitor , if they require the same , and here it seems there was no requiring of it , but it was voluntarily given , and now you have lapsed your time of making the exception of wanting a copy by having pleaded to the indictment , whereby you have in effect admitted and declared , either that you had a true copy of it , or that you did not think fit to require one ; for the use of the copy is to better enable the prisoner to plead . but when you did plead , you took upon your self to be well able to plead without the help of a copy , which you might have had upon the asking for . sir b. shower . then , my lord , there is another thing in the indictment ▪ that in this overt-act there is a new time , and a new place , and a new verb , and a new fact alleged , and no nominative case ; it is alleged that peter cook at first with others did so and so ; and then the first of july to bring the treasons aforesaid to effect , there & alibi , &c. ( which is very loose , for i know not whence the venue must come ) did traiterously with chernock , friend , &c. consult to procure diversas turmas & legiones , &c. to join with them in england , and then it comes & ulterius such a day , year and place , did traiterously agree so and so , and not say who : now this is neither by express words nor rule of grammar to be referred to the prisoner at the bar , it does not say ipse idem petrus cook ; now , my lord , that the king's counsel thought it necessary in every overtact is plain , because those words are put in every other clause of the indictment , in those clauses that goe before and those clauses that come after ; then if they will take it , that this clause must refer to the next antecedent , that will not do , for the next precedent nominative case is either friend or chernock . so that this is without a nominative case , and the presidents in my lord coke's entries , and all the other books have the nominative case repeated , where there is a new time , and a new place , and a new fact alleged : now it might be true that the prisoner at the bar might be present , and this same treason might be discoursed of and agitated , and there might be a consult about this business , and yet it is not necessarily implied that he must consent and agree to send chernock into france , upon which the great stress of the indictment lies : therefore we say , these words having no nominative case , the indictment cannot hold . mr. att. gen. my lord , as to this objection it will receive a very plain answer . our indictment begins and sets forth that peter cook , the prisoner at the bar , did imagine and compass the king's death , and did adhere to the king's enemies , and these are the treasons ; and then it sets forth the overt act , that in execution of the traiterous compassings , imaginations and adhesions aforesaid . ipse idem petrus cook together with sir william parkins , mr. chernock , sir john friend and others , did propose and consult to procure from the french king forces to invade this land & ulterius he and they did agree to send chernock to the late king james . mr. j. rookeby . there 's the first naming of james the second , late king of england , and there is no eidem jacobo i promise you . l. c. j. treby . well , that mistake is over . pray go on mr. attorney general . mr. att. gen. my lord , as to this objection of sir barth . shower , he would have ipse idem petrus repeated over again , and he says that we lay a distinct over-act with a different time and place . now that is a mistake too , it is not a different time and place , but the same time and place ; and it mentions that cum . r. chernock , j. friend , &c. & cum aliis proditoribus conveniebat . consultabat . &c. which he says may refer to sir j. friend or charnock : but if you look into the frame of the sentence that can never be . mr. j. rookeby . petrus cook is the nominative case that governs all the verbs . mr. att. gen. and there is no other nom. case in all the indictments but petrus cook except it be in a parenthesis , and that saves the rule of grammar if there were any thing in it , that it must refer to the last antecedent . sir b. shower . when it comes to the clause that he did procure horse and arms , there the nominative case is repeated . l. c. j. treby . it would not have made it worse , if they had made it so here , but the question is whether it be necessary . sir b. shower . indictments ought to be precisely certain , but this we say is not so . mr. att. gen. but here is as much certainty as to the person , as can be , that he did consult with such and such about such things , and further the same day did agree with the same traytors to do so and so . mr. j. powell . indictments it is true ought to be plain and clear , but i do not see but here is as much certainty as can be that he did such a day consult , and further the same day did agree with the same persons . sir. b. shower . vvho did agree , my lord ? mr. j. powell . he that did consult with them before , and that is peter cook. mr. att. gen. you 'd have had us to have put it to every verb , i believe . sir. b. shower . in indictments no presumption ought to be used , but the facts ought to be directly and positively alleged . mr. j. powell . it s true there should be no presumption , and there is none here , for certainly this is a plain assertion of fact. l. c. j. treby . here are two things that are set forth ; first , that peter cook did meet with sir john friend , sir william parkyns , and others , and then and there did consult with them , and consent to procure an invasion , and joyn an insurrection thereto . and , secondly , further with the said traytors did agree to send chernock into france . now , what is the nominative case to this agreement ? is it sir john friend , and sir william parkyns ? that 's impossible ; for they could not be said properly to meet and consult with themselves , every one of them with his own self and the rest : and then the number , if it had referr'd to them , should have been plural , but here it is singular [ agreavit ] and the sense is no more than this ; that then and there mr. cook did meet with such persons , and did consult with them about such and such matters , and further , did agree with them to do thus . sir b. shower . the meaning is not to be forced and strained by inference or presumption , but it ought to be express and plain . l. c. j. treby . nay , you cannot express it better ; you may make a tautology of it if you will. sir b. shower . the paragraph is long , my lord , and therefore requires the more care to have those repetitions that are necessary . l. c. j. treby . your objection to this paragraph is , that it is too long ; but repeating the same nominative case to every verb , would make it much longer . sir b. shower . it cannot be understood to mean peter cook without presumption , which ought not to be in an indictment . mr. att. gen. and as to sir bar. shower's first objection , his copy is right too , and he mistook the place . sir b. shower . you shou'd have given me that for an answer . mr. att. gen. nay , you should have taken more care , and not have made the objection . l. c. j. treby . truly , i think it is hardly possible to have made this better if it had been otherwise than it is . mr. serj. darnel . my lord , we think we have a good fact of it , which we rely upon , and therefore do not so much insist upon these exceptions , tho , in duty to our client , we mention that which we think is necessary , and we submit to your lordship . cl. of arr. set peter cook to the bar. [ which was done ] you , the prisoner at the bar , these good men which you shall hear called , and personally appear , are to pass between our sovereign lord the king and you , upon tryal of your life and death ; if therefore you wou'd challenge them , or any of them , your time is to speak unto them as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . cryer . call sir john sweetapple . sir john swetapple . here. cook. my lord chief justice , if your lordship please , i am advised — l. c. j. treby . pray sir speak out that we may hear what you say , and let the cryer make proclamation for silence . [ which was done . ] cook. my lord , before the jury is called , i am advised , that if any of the jury have said already that i am guilty or they will find me guilty , or i shall suffer , or be hanged , or the like , they are not fit or proper men to be of the jury . l. c. j. treby . you say right , sir , it is a good cause of challenge . mr. j. rokeby . that will be a sufficient cause , if , when they come to the book , you object that , and be ready to prove it . cook. which is sir john sweetapple ? [ he was shewn to him . ] cl. of arr. there he is . cook. i challenge him . cl. of arr. william walker . cook. sir , have you said any such thing , that you believe me guilty ? mr. walker . no , sir. mr. baker . my lord , he is asking of the jury-man the question . mr. j. rokeby . that 's a fact the prisoner should prove upon him . mr. att. gen. my lord , he must not ask the jury that question , whether they have declared before , that they will find him guilty ; that is to make them guilty of a misdemeanor . mr. serj. darnall . is it any misdemeanor for me to say , i think or believe such a man is guilty . mr. att. gen. if he be summon'd to be of a jury , and declare his opinion before hand , it is a misdemeanor . mr. serj. darnall . but suppose it be before he was summon'd ? mr. att. gen. if you make any such objection , you must prove it , and not out of the jurymans own mouth . mr. serj. darnall . i think any man , my lord , that comes to serve upon the jury , may be ask'd any question that does not make him guilty of any offence or crime , or liable to any punishment : now if any of these gentlemen that are return'd upon this pannel , before the summons have declared their opinion , that the prisoner is guilty , or ought to suffer , with submission , the prisoner may ask such a question , whether he have said so , yea or no ? mr. j. powell . he cannot upon a voyer dire be ask'd any such question . mr. j. rokeby . it is not denyed to be a material objection , but it must be made out by proof . l. c. j. treby . you put it too large , brother daruall , you may ask upon a voyer dire , whether he have any interest in the cause ; nor shall we deny you liberty to ask whether he be fitly qualified , according to law , by having a freehold of sufficient value ; but that you can ask a juror or a witness every question that will not make him criminous , that 's too large : men have been ask'd whether they have been convicted and pardon'd for felony , or whether they have been whipt for petty lacinary ; but they have not been obliged to answer ; for , tho their answer in the affirmative will not make them criminal or subject them to punishment , yet they are matters of infamy ; and if it be an infamous thing , that 's enough to preserve a man from being bound to answer . a pardon'd man is not guilty , his crime is purged ; but merely for the reproach of it , it shall not be put upon him to answer a question whereon he will be forced to forswear or disgrace himself . so persons have been excused from answering whether they have been committed to bridewell as pilferers or vagrants , or to newgate for clipping or coining . &c. yet to be suspected or committed is only a misfortune and shame , no crime . the like has been observed in other cases of odious and infamous matters which were not crimes indictable . but to keep to our case ; 't is true , a juror may be challenged being an alien . or being a villain ; but where the matter apparently carries crime or shame , it should be proved ; the outlawry should be proved , and so should the being a villain . yet that is no crime , tho it be an ignominy . mr. serj. darnall . but , my lord , i take this to be no manner of infamy at all , there is nothing of crime , nor nothing of reproach , but only a declaring of a mans opinion . l. c. j. treby . truly , i think otherwise ; i take it to be at least a scandalous misbehaviour , and deservedly ill spoken of , for any man to pre-judge , especially in such a heinous matter . i think it is a very shameful discovery of a man's weakness and rashness ; if not malice , to judge before he hears the cause , and before the party that is accused could be tryed . but , it seems , by what the prisoner says that he would ask all the jurors , whether they have not said , that he was guilty , or that they would find him guilty , or that he should be hanged , or the like : which ( presuming him innocent ) is to ask whether they have not defamed and slandered him in the highest degree ; and to force them to discover that they have a mortal hatred to him , and come with a malicious resolution to convict him : which admitting they are not punishable by our law , yet are things so detestably wicked and so scandalous as are not fit to be required to be disclosed by and against themselves , mr. serj. darnall . pray , my lord , what is more common than for a man to say , before he is summoned to be upon a jury , when he hears a fact reported concerning such a one , to say i believe he is guilty , or i am of opinion he is , and i am sure he will be hanged , and yet there is no crime in this . l. c. j. treby . truly , bro. darnall , i know not how you may approve of such a man , but i 'll assure you i do not . i take the question not to be concerning a man's discoursing suppositively ; as , if upon hearing news , or a report of clear evidence , a man should say , supposing this to be true , such a man is guilty , and i should find him so if i were of his jury . this might not be sufficient to set aside a juror : for this has been a general discourse among the subjects upon occasion of this conspiracy ; and it imports that if evidence should not be true and clear , he would acquit him . and so he is , as he should be , indifferent . but if a man , qualified for a juror , affirm positively that such a prisoner is guilty , and that he will find him so whatever evidence or proof be given or made to the contrary , i think that may be a misdemeanour punishable as an owning and encouraging of falshood , perjury and injustice , and a contempt and scandal to the justice of the kingdom . tho i hope and believe that no man hath so demeaned himself . mr. j. powell . in a civil case it would be a good cause of challenge . if a man have given his opinion about the right one way or other , may you not upon a voire dire ask him whether he hath given his opinion one way or other ? i believe it may be ask in a civil cause because he may have been a refferree ; but if you make it criminal it cannot be askt , because a man is not bound to accuse himself ; now the difference lies in the nature of the cause , it is not criminal in a civil case for a man to say he was an arbitrator in such a case , and , upon what appeared before him , he was of such an opinion . mr. att. gen. but , my lord , it is a different case to give an opinion about the right between party and party where a man has been an arbitrator and so in the nature of a judge , and where a man is to go upon a jury in the case of life and death , and before the evidence given he declares his opinion without hearing the cause . sir b. shower . my lord , we know several of the tryals have been printed , and the names of several persons mentioned , and upon reading of the tryals or conversing about them , men are apt to give their opinions one way or other . mr. serj. darnall . it is only an objection in case he has done it . mr. j. rookeby . but , brother , how can you ask him the question ? mr. serj. darnal . if the court are of opinion that it is such a crime that it cannot be askt , as tending to make a man accuse himself of an infamous crime , then we submit it to you , and i confess we must not ask it ; but we cannot apprehend that there is either crime or infamy in it , tho we think it is an objection and a good cause of challenge . mr. b. powys . i think , tho it be not such a crime as infamous upon which a man is not to be credited , for that is infamy in the eye of the law , whereby a man is prejudiced in his credit ; yet however it is a shameful thing for a man to give his judgment before he hath heard the evidence and therefore i think you ought not to ask him it , to make him accuse himself , if it be an opprobrious matter upon him . mr. serj. darnall . truly , my lord , i always took it to be the rule , if the the thing asked to the person returned be not criminal nor infamous , the party that is askt ought to answer to it . l. c. j. treby . i would fain know , if you should ask any of the jury-men this question , whether he be guilty of all the crimes that are pardoned by the last act of grace , he be bound to answer it ? mr. serj. darnall . undoubtedly we cannot ask any such question ; no , not to any one of the things therein mentioned . l. c. j. treby . but yet you will force him to discover a crime ( if it be one ) that is unpardoned . mr. j. powell . certainly you go too far , brother , for no man is obliged to charge himself with what is criminal , but whether this be criminal to say , i believe such a one will be hanged , is of another consideration . mr. j. rookeby . but i think it must be proved upon him if any objection be made . sir b. shower . my lord , it will be no easy thing to bring witnesses to prove this matter , and therefore we would have it from his own mouth . mr. j. rookeby . and it is a very hard matter for a man to be put upon proving every discourse that he has had about the publick affairs of the time . mr. recorder . the reason of your exception is , that he has declared his opinion before hand , that the party would be hanged or would suffer , that 's a reproach and a reflection upon a wise man so to do ; and if they can prove it upon him let them do it : but whether you should ask him such a question , whether he be a fool or a knave for the giving an opinion one way or other , that 's the question before us . mr. serj. darnall . my lord , we do not offer it to the court as an objection that he is not a wise man. mr. att. gen. but what a man does utter imprudently may occasion a prejudice against him , and therefore ought to be proved , and not he to prove it himself . l. c. j. treby . especially being a freeholder of london , and taking notice of what is done in london ; and if he does take notice of the fact , and does previously give his opinion of a matter which he may be called upon a jury to try , this is an indiscretion and a reproach to him , and i think a misdemeanour . mr. serj. darnall . my lord , i acknowledge it is ill done of him , that is , indiscreetly and not wisely , and we would have discreet and wise men upon our jury . mr. cowper . my lord , mr. serj. darnall will make it so little a thing at last that it will amount to no cause of challenge , if it were even proved against him , which we insist it ought to be , it being their objection , and the party not being bound to prove it against himself ; but truly we think there is more in it than so , because it is an unjust prejudging of a man before he is tryed and heard , and if so , it is a thing that he ought not to accuse himself of , and therefore we oppose the asking any such question . mr. serj. darnall . our objection is not because it is an offence to declare a man's opinion upon a fact reported , but because it shews he has a settled opinion against the person of his guilt , and so he is not so equal a man to try him . l. c. j. treby . and is that like a honest man and a freeholder of london , ( who ought to be indifferent ) to come with a settled opinion against a man , when he is to be one of his jury ? mr. serj. darnall . well , my lord , we have been heard , and submit it to the judgment of the court. l. c. j. treby . truly i think it reflects both dishonesty and dishonour upon him , and therefore these questions ought not to be askt . the question is not whether a man ( if ever such a man there were ) that hath so resolved and declared shall be sworn ? no ; he is not fit to serve upon a jury . but the question is , how this shall be discovered , by his own oath or by other proof ? i think it ought to be made appear by other proof , if true . a man attainted of felony , forgery , false verdict , or perjury , ought not to serve on a jury , yet he shall not be examined concerning the same on a voire dire . and if there be in court a copy of such judgment carefully examined and kept by himself , he shall not be forced to answer whether it be a true copy ; tho his answer could not subject him to any further penalty . mr. serj. darnall . my lord , i hope no gentleman of the jury has done it . l. c. j. treby . i hope no freeholder of london is so indiscreet or so unjust . but if any man in this pannel have any particular displeasure to the prisoner , or be unindifferent , or have declared himself so , i do admonish and desire him to discover so much in general ; for , it is not fit , nor for the honour of the king's justice , that such a man should serve on the jury . mr. serj. darnall . we hope so too . we hope that all that are returned upon the jury are discreet and impartial men. cl. of arr. well , sir , what say you to this gentleman mr. walker ? cook. i challenge you , sir. cl. of arr. nathanael long. sir b. shower . my lord , we think he may ask if they have a freehold or no ; because the law requires that qualification , and the prisoner not being able to prove the nagative , it puts the proof of the affirmative upon the person himself . mr. att. gen. what does sir bartholomew mean ? would he have the jury-men bring their evidences with them to prove their free-hold ? l. c. j. treby . no sure , mr. attorney ; but to ask the question was allowed him the last time , and we will not deny him the same just favour now . cook. are you a free-holder , sir , in london of the value of l. a year ? mr. long. yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand-jury when the bill was found against me ? mr. long. no , sir. cook. i challenge you , sir. cl. of arr. william carbonell . mr. carbonell . my lord , i am no free-holder . l. c. j. treby . what , does he say he has no free-hold ? cl. of arr. yes , my lord. l. c. j. treby . then he must be set aside . cl. of arr. joshua foster . mr. foster . my lord , i am no freeholder in london neither . mr. att. gen. my lord , we desire they may be sworn whether they have a free-hold or not . cl. of arr. hold mr. carbonell and mr. foster the book . ( which was done severally . ) you shall true answer make to all such questions as shall be askt you by the court. so help you god. mr. att. gen. ask him if he hath not a freehold in london ? mr. carbonell . no , i have not . cl. of arr. have you or any body in trust for you a freehold in london of the value of l. a year ? mr. carbonell . no , sir. cl. of ar. joshua foster , have you or any in trust for you any estate of free-hold in london of the value of l. a year ? mr. foster . no , sir. cl. of arr. joseph billers . cook. i desire they may be called in the order as they are in the pannel , you have not called john ewen , who is next . cl. of arr. i do call them in order : as for mr. ewen , one has made oath that he is sick , and is not able to come hither . what say you to mr. billers ? there he stands . cook. sir , are you a free-holder of l. a year , within the city of london ? mr. billers . yes , sir. cook. was you of the grand-jury , sir , when the bill was found against me ? mr. billers . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john child . cook. sir , are you a free-holder within the city of london ? mr. child . yes , sir. cook. of l. a year ? mr. child . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand-jury , when the bill was found against me ? mr. child . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. edward leeds . cook. sir , are you a freeholder within the city of london , of l. a year ? mr. leeds . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand-jury that found the bill against me ? mr. leeds . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . l. c. j. treby . what question was that he ask'd him ? cl. of arr. whether he were one of the grand-jury that found the bill . l. c. j. treby . a very proper question : for an indicter ought not to be a tryer. cl. of arr. thomas clark. cook. sir , are you a free-holder within the city of london of l. a year ? mr. clark. yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand-jury that found the bill against me . mr. clark. no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. nathan green. cook. are you a free-holder , sir , within the city of london , of the value of l. a year . mr. green. yes , sir. cook were you of the grandjury that found the bill against me . mr. green. no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. henry sherbroke . cook i have nothing to say against him . cl. of arr. then hold mr. sherbroke the book . ( which was done . ) look upon the prisoner . you shall well and truly try , and true deliverance make between our sovereign lord the king and the prisoner at the bar ( whom you shall have in charge ) according to your evidence . so help you god. ( then mr. sherbrooke was put into the place appointed for the jury . ) cl. of arr. henry dry. cook. sir , are you a free-holder in the city of london , of the value of l. a year . mr. dry. yes , sir. cook were you of the grand-jury that found the bill against me ? mr. dry. no , sir. cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of arr. joseph morewood . cook. sir , have you a free-hold in london , of the value of l. a year ? mr. morewood . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand-jury that found the bill against me ? mr. morewood . no , sir. cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of ar. richard greenway . cook. are you a free-holder of l. a year in london . mr. greenw . yes sir. cook. were you of the grand-jury that found the bill against me ? mr. greenway . no , sir. cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of arr. john sherbrook . cook. sir , are you a free-holder in the city of london of l. a year ? mr. sherbrook . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand-jury that found the bill against me ? mr. sherbrok . no , sir. cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of arr. thomas emmes . cook. are you a free-holder , sir , within the city of london of l. a year ? mr. emmes . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand-jury that found the bill against me ? mr. emmes . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. samuel jackson . cook. sir , are you a free-holder within the city of london of l. a year ? mr. jackson . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand-jury that found the bill against me . mr. jackson . no , sir. cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of arr. henry hunter . cook. are you a free-holder , sir , in london of the value of l. a year ? mr. hunter . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. hunter . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john deacle . cook. sir , are you a freeholder within the city of london , of the value of ten pounds a year ? mr. deacle . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. deacle . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr john cullum . cook. i accept of him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. thomas shaw. cook. i accept of him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. george juyce . cook. sir , are you a freeholder within the city of london of ten pound a year ? mr. juyce . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. juyce , no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. richard young. cook. i have nothing to say against him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. john hedges . cook. sir , are you a freeholder within the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. hedges . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. hedges . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john james . cook. sir , are you a freeholder within the city of london of ten pound a year ? mr. james , yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. james , no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. thomas poole . cook. sir are you a freeholder within the city of london of ten pound a year ? mr. poole , yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. poole . no sir ? cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. peter parker . cook. sir are you a freeholder in the city of london of ten pound a year ? mr. parker . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. parker . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. william wilkinson . mr. wilkinson . my lord , i am no freeholder in london . ( to which he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. henry mitchell . cook. hold , sir , here thomas man in my pannel is next . cl. of arr. there is oath made that he is sick in bad. what say you to mr. mitchell ? cook. sir , have you a freehold of l. a year in the city of london ? mr. mitchell . no , sir. ( to which he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. richard ryder . cook. sir , have you a freehold of ten pound a year in the city of london ? mr. ryder , yes , i have , sir ; but i live in a parish that never serve upon any juries , nor ever did in the memory of any man. cl. of arr. but have you a freehold of l. a year ? mr. ryder . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. ryder . no , sir. cook. sir , i challenge you . cl. of arr. richard temple . mr. temple . my lord , i am no freeholder . ( to which he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. peter walker . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. walker , yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. walker . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. thomas pistol . mr. pistol . i am no freeholder . ( to which he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. john hunt. mr. hunt. my lord , my name is mistaken ; my name is william hunt. l. c. j. treby . then you must go on to another . cl. of arr. john hardret . mr. hardret . i am no freeholder of l. a year . ( to which he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. john hammond . cook. are you a freeholder , sir , of l. a year , in london ? mr. hammond . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. hammond . no sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john cooper . cook. i accept of him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. josselin roberts . cook. sir , are you a freeholder within the city of london of ten pound a year ? mr. roberts . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. roberts . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. jonathan micklethwait . cook. i have nothing to say against him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. richard chiswell . cook. sir , are you a freeholder within the city of london of ten pound a year ? mr. chiswel . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. chiswell , no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. joseph thompson . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. thompson . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. thompson . i was returned upon the grand jury , but did not serve . cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. edward brewster . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. brewster . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. brewster . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. george gooday . mr. gooday . my lord , i am no freeholder . ( to which he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. abraham hickman . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. hickman . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me . mr. hickman . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr george grove . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. grove . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. grove . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. nathaniel wyersden . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. wyersden . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. wyersden . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . my lord , i desire to know how many i have excepted against . cl. of arr. one and thirty . mr. burleigh . write , write . cl. of arr. samuel blewitt . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. blewitt . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. blewitt . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl of arr. john wolfe . cook. i accept of him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. william smith . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. smith . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. smith . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john bickly . mr. bickly . my lord , i don't look upon my self as a freeholder ? l. c. j. treby . why so , sir. mr. bickly . i have a lease for one and fifty years , my lord , of my house , and there is a very little piece of ground adjoining to it that was very convenient for me to lay to my lease ; there is no way to it but through my house ; it is a thing that never was let for any thing , and it is not worth the building . l. c. j. treby . what estate have you in it ? do you pay a ground-rent for it ? mr. bickly . my lord , i bought that little piece of ground for the conveniency of my lease . l. c. j. treby . but did you purchase it for term of years , or to you and your heirs ? mr. bickly . nay , i bought it for ever , my lord. l. c. j. treby . then you have a freehold in it . what 's the value of it ? mr. bickly . truly very little , my lord. l. c. j. treby . i don't know any body can judge of the value of it but your self . is it worth ten pound a year ? mr. bickly . my lord , i can't value it at ten pound a year , it never cost me forty pound . l. c. j. treby . then for estate you are well enough , but for value you are a little under . cl. of arr. thomas collins . cook. i accept of him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. john watson . ( he was sworn . ) cook. i do not challenge him . cl. of arr. benjamin hooper . cook. i accept of him . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. john wells . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. wells . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. wells . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. john hibbart . cook. sir , are you a freeholder of the city of london , of ten pound a year ? mr. hibbart . yes , sir. cook. were you of the grand jury that found the bill against me ? mr. hibbart . no , sir. cook. i challenge you . cl. of arr. mr. cook you have challenged your full number . call daniel wray . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of arr. john pettit . ( he was sworn . ) cryer countez . henry sherbrook . cryer . one , &c. cl. of arr. john pettit . cryer . twelve good men and true , stand together and hear your evidence . the names of the twelve sworn are as follow : henry sherbrook , john cullum , thomas shaw , richard young , john cooper . jonathan micklethwait , john wolfe , thomas collins , john watson , benjamin hooper , daniel wray , and john pettit . cl. of arr. cryer , make proclamation . cryer . o yez , if any one can inform my lord , the king's justices , the king's serjeant , the king's attorney-general , or this inquest now to be taken of the high treason whereof peter cook the prisoner at the bar stands indicted , let them come forth and they shall be heard , for the now prisoner stands at the bar upon his deliverance ; and all others that are bound by recognizance to give evidence against the prisoner at the bar , let them come forth , and give their evidence , or they forfeit their recognizance . l. c. j. treby . you must make room for those twelve gentlemen that are sworn , that they may be at ease ; and for those that are not sworn , their attendance may be spared . cl. of arr. peter cook , hold up thy hand . ( which he did . ) gentlemen , you that are sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause . he stands indicted in london , by the name of peter cook , late of london , gentleman ; for that whereas an open and notoriously publick and most sharp and cruel war , for a great while hath been , and yet is by land and by sea , carried on , and prosecuted , by lewis the french king , against the most serene , most illustrious and most excellent prince , our sovereign lord william the third , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france , and ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c. all which time , the said lewis the french king , and his subjects , were and yet are foes and enemies of our said lord the king that now is , william the third , and his subjects , he the said peter cook , a subject of the said lord the king that now is , of this his kingdom of england , well knowing the premises , not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , as a false traytor against the said most serene , most mild and most excellent prince , our sovereign lord william the third , now king of england , his supreme , true , rightful , lawful , and undoubted lord , the cordial love , and true and due obedience , fidelity , and allegiance , which every subject of the said lord the king that now is , towards him our said lord the king , should bear , and of right is bound to bear , withdrawing , and utterly to extinguish , intending and contriving , and with all his strength purposing and designing the government of this kingdom of england , under him our said lord the king that now is of right duly , happily , and very well establish'd , altogether to subvert , change and alter , and his faithful subjects , and the freemen of this kingdom of england , into intolerable and miserable servitude to the aforesaid french king to subdue and inthral ; the first day of july , in the seventh year of the reign of our said lord the king that now is , and divers days and times , as well before as after , at london , in the parish of st. peter cornhil , in the ward of limestreet , falsly , maliciously , devilishly , and trayterously did compass , imagine and contrive , purpose and intend , our said sovereign lord the king that now is , then his supreme , true , rightful and lawful lord , of and from the regal state , title , honour , power , crown , empire , and government of this kingdom of england , to depose , cast down , and utterly deprive , and the same our lord the king to death and final destruction to bring , and the aforesaid lewis the french king , by armies , soldiers , legions and his subjects , this kingdom of england to invade , fight with , conquer and subdue , to move , incite , procure and assist , and a miserable slaughter among the faithful subjects of our said lord king william , throughout this whole kingdom of england , to make and cause . and further , that the said peter cook , during the war aforesaid , to wit , the aforesaid first day of july , in the seventh year abovesaid , and divers other days and times before and after , at london aforesaid , in the parish and ward aforesaid , to the said foes and enemies of the same our lord the king , did adhere , and was assisting : and his aforesaid most wicked and devilish treasons , and trayterous compassings , contrivances , intentions , and purposes aforesaid , to fulfil , perfect , and bring to effect , and in prosecution , performance , and execution of that trayterous adhering , he the said peter cook , as such a false traytor , during the war aforesaid , to wit , the same first day of july , in the year abovesaid , at london aforesaid , in the parish and ward aforesaid , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , there , and elsewhere in london aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , advisedly , secretly , and trayterously , and by force and arms , with one robert chernock , sir john friend and sir william parkyns , knights , ( which said robert chernock , sir john friend , and sir william parkyns , were lately severally duly convicted and attainted of high treason , in contriving and conspiring the death of our said lord the king that now is ) and with divers other false traytors to the jurors unknown , did meet , propose , treat , consult , consent , and agree to procure from the aforesaid lewis the french king , of his subjects , forces and soldiers , then and yet foes and enemies of our said sovereign lord william , now king of england , &c. great numbers of soldiers and armed men , this kingdom of england to invade and fight with , and to levy , procure , and prepare great numbers of armed men , and troops , and legions against our said lord the king that now is , to rise up and be formed , and with those foes and enemies , at and upon such their invasion and entry within this kingdom of england , to join and unite , rebellion and war against our said lord the king that now is , within this kingdom of england , to make , levy , and carry on the same : our lord the king so , as aforesaid , to depose , and him to kill and murther : and further with the said false traytors , the same first day of july , in the year abovesaid , at london aforesaid , in the parish and ward aforesaid , trayterously did consult , consent , and agree to send the aforesaid robert chernock as a messenger from him the said peter cock , and the same other traytors , as far as , and into , the kingdom of france , in parts beyond the seas , unto james , the second , late king of england , to propose to him , and to request him to obtain from the aforesaid french king the aforesaid soldiers and armed men for the invasion aforesaid to be made , and intelligence and notice of such their trayterous intentions and adherings , to the said late king james the second , and the said other foes and enemies , and their adherents , to give and shew , and them to inform of other things , particulars , and circumstances thereunto referring , for the assistance , animating , comforting , and aid of the said foes and enemies of the said lord the king that now is , in the war aforesaid : and to stir up and procure those foes and enemies the readilier , and more boldly , this kingdom of england to invade , the treasons , and trayterous contrivances , compassings , imaginings , and purposes of the said peter cook aforesaid , to perfect and fulfil ; also the same first day of july , in the seventh year abovesaid , at london aforesaid , in the parish and ward aforesaid , he , the said peter cook , divers horses , and very many arms , guns , muskets , pistols , rapiers , and swords , and other weapons , ammunition , and warlike matters , and military instruments , falsly , maliciously , secretly , and trayterously , did obtain , buy , gather together , and procure ; and to be bought , gathered together , obtained , and procured , did cause , and in his custody had , and detained to that intent , to use the same in the said invasion , war , and rebellion against our said lord the king that now is , him , our said lord the king , of and from the regal state , crown , and government of this kingdom of england , to depose , cast down , and deprive , and him to kill and murther ; and the designs , intentions , and all the purposes of him the said peter cook aforesaid , to fulfil , perfect , and fully to bring to effect , against the duty of his allegiance , and against the peace of our said sovereign lord that now is , his crown and dignity , as also against the form of the statute in such case made and provided . upon this indictment he has been arraigned , and thereunto has pleaded not guilty , and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and his country , which country you are , your charge is to inquire whether he be guilty of the high-treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ; if you find him guilty , you are to inquire what goods or chattels , lands or tenements , he had at the time of the high-treason committed , or at any time since ; if you find him not guilty , you are to inquire whether he fled for it ; if you find that he fled for it , you are to inquire of his goods and chattels as if you had sound him guilty ; if you find him not guilty , nor that he did fly for it , you are to say so , and no more , and hear your evidence . mr. mompesson . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen that are sworn , this is an indictment for high treason against peter cook , the prisoner at the bar , and the indictment sets forth , that whereas there has been an open and cruel war for a long time , and still is between his majesty king william , and the french king , the prisoner at the bar not weighing the duty of his allegiance , the first of july in the seventh year of the king's reign , did compass and intend to depose and deprive the king of the title , honour , and dignity of the imperial crown of this realm , and likewise to put the king to death , and did adhere to the king's enemies ; and to fulfil these treasons , he did consult with chernock , and several other traytors who were mentioned , there , and some of whom have been found guilty of treason , and executed for it , to send over to the late king james , to perswade the french king to send over soldiers and arms to invade this kingdom , and to raise an insurrection and rebellion in it , and to deprive and put the king to death , and to compleat these treasons , it further sets forth , that the prisoner at the bar did provide several arms and horses , and this is laid to be against the duty of his allegiance , against the king's peace , crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided ; to this he had pleaded not guilty , and for tryal put himself upon the country , and , gentlemen , if we prove these facts laid in the indictment , it s your duty to find him guilty . mr. att. gen. may it please your lordship , and you , gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner at the bar stands indicted for high treason . cook. my lord chief-justice , if your lordship pleases , before the witnesses are examined against me . i intreat you that they may not be both in court together , that one may not hear what the other swears , tho' i suppose it is the same thing ; for they have been together both now and the last day . l. c. j. treby . mr. cook , i must tell you it is not necessary to be granted for asking ; for we are not to discourage , or cast any suspicion upon , the witnesses , when there is nothing made out against them ; but it is a favour that the court may grant , and does grant sometimes , and now does it to you ; tho' it be not of necessity : they shall be examined apart , but at present this is not the time of examination ; for the king's counsel are now to open the evidence before they examine the witnesses ; but when the time comes for the witnesses to be called and examined , the court will , in favour to you , take care that your request be complied with . mr. att. gen. may it please your lordship , the prisoner stands indicted for high treason , in compassing and imagining the death and destruction of his majesty , and likewise in adhering to his majesty's enemies , these are the treasons specified in the indictment : the overt acts that are laid to prove these treasons are , that he with several other traitors , named in the indictment , did meet and consult , and agree to send over chernock into france , to invite the french king to make an invasion upon the kingdom , and did provide arms for that purpose . gentlemen , the nature of the evidence that you will have produced to prove the prisoner guilty of these treasons lies thus : it will appear to you that there has been for some time a conspiracy carried on by several traytors , and wicked persons , to subvert the established government of this kingdom , and destroy the constitution of england , by a foreign invasion of the french. you will hear that this conspiracy was laid wide , and consisted of several parts , one part was that of assassinating his majesty's royal person , and that was to be done first , as a preparation and encouragement to the french to invade the kingdom : the other part was the inviting the french king to invade us , and the prisoner at the bar is accused of being concerned in that part that relates to the invasion of this kingdom , by a french power ; and tho' it may be the other part , that of assassinating the king , be the blackest part of the conspiracy , yet if the prisoner at the bar has been ingaged in the inviting a foreign power to invade the kingdom , my lords , the judges , will tell you , in point of law , that is as much an overt act of the compassing the destruction of the king and people of england , and the subversion of our ancient good constitution , as if he had been concerned immediately in the other part , the assassination . but now , gentlemen , that the prisoner was ingaged in inviting the french to invade us , you will hear proved by several witnesses , that there having been a design last year , just before his majesty went to flanders , to expose his own person for our protection , and the protection of the liberties of europe , there was a conspiracy to murder him before he went to flanders , which , it seems , they were not ripe for then ; but immediately after he was gone to flanders , you will hear there were formal meetings of several gentlemen and persons of quality , among whom the prisoner at the barr was one : there was a meeting in may , last year , after the king was gone to flanders ; and this was at the old king's head in leaden-hall-street ; and there were present , my lord of aylesbury , my lord montgomery , sir william parkyns , sir john freind , mr. chernock , ( all which three last have suffered the punishment of-the law for their treason already ; ) and there were also mr. cook , the prisoner at the barr , mr. porter and mr. goodman ; these men did meet together ' to consider of the best ways and means of encouraging and inviting the french king with an armed force to invade this kingdom ; they considered that that was a proper opportunity , and did treat of several arguments that might perswade to it : first , that the king was gone to flanders , and so was not in person here to defend us ; and that the troops , to make good such defence , were in a great measure drawn thither , to assist the allies against the french power ; they did think likewise , that at that time there was a great discontent and dissatisfaction in the nation , though i think in that they were greatly mistaken ; and i believe and hope they will always find themselves so , to think that the people of england are so little sensible of that which is the means of their preservation , as to hearken to any discontents to incourage a french power to come into england to destroy our religion and liberties ; that indeed they did apprehend , though they were mistaken , and i believe they always will , when they go upon that ground . gentlemen , these persons thinking this a proper opportunity , did agree to send a messenger into france upon this message , to go to the late king james , and perswade him to desire and prevail with the french king to assist him with ten thousand men , foot , horse , and dragoons ; and to incourage him , they promised their assistance here , as soon as he came over ; and undertook , that between them , they could furnish , and wou'd raise horse to meet him at his landing , and joyn upon such an invasion . gentlemen , at this meeting this was agreed upon by all that were there , whereof the prisoner was one ; and they did agree to send mr. chernock , ( who has since been executed , and a principal incourager of the design , and actor in it ; ) he was the messenger that was appointed to go upon this errand , and mr. chernock was resolved to go , but desired another meeting of these gentlemen , to know if they continued in their former resolution , that he might have all the assurance that was reasonable to give the french king incouragement to make the invasion : accordingly another meeting was had of most of the same persons that were at the meeting before ; particularly the prisoner at the barr was at that second meeting , which was in covent-garden at one mrs. mountjoy's , who keeps a tavern next door to sir john fenwick's lodgings ; there they met upon the same design , and upon consultation had , and the question ask'd , they did agree to continue in the former resolution , and upon that immediately mr. chernock went into france to sollicit forces from thence to invade us ; but it happ'ned , as it seems , that the french king's forces were otherwise imployed , so that he cou'd not spare so many at that time ; and this return was brought by chernock to the gentlemen that imployed him ; that he had spoke with the late king , who gave him that answer , that the french king cou'd not spare so many men at that time , but he thank'd them for their kindness . gentlemen , this will be the nature of our evidence , to show , that the prisoner at the barr was concerned in that part of the conspiracy which relates to the french invasion ; and if he be guilty of that , in point of law , he is as much guilty of the conspiracy , to depose and murder the king , as if he had been concerned in the other part of assassinating his royal person ; and i believe no body can think that those that were to act in the assassination , wou'd have attempted to ingage in such a desperate design , if it had not been for the incouragement of the french invasion that was to second them afterwards , if they succeeded ; so that no body can extenuate the crime of the invasion , because as to the horridness of the attempt , it is less black than the other ; they are both crimes of a very high nature , and equally high-treason ; and if we prove the prisoner guilty of this part , we hope you will find him guilty . mr. soll. gen. my lord , we will call our witnesses and prove the matter , as it has been opened . call captain porter and mr. goodman . mr. serj. darnall . now , my lord , we must desire that that may be done which our client desired before , and which your lordship was favourably pleased to promise , that the witnesses may be examined a-part . l. c. j. treby . let it be so : who do you begin with ? mr. soll. gen. we begin with captain porter , my lord. l. c. j treby . then let mr. goodman withdraw . mr. baker . let mr. goodman go up stairs , and we will call him presently . mr. soll. gen. swear captain porter : ( which was done . ) captain porter , do you know mr. cook , the prisoner at the barr ? capt. porter . yes , my lord. mr. soll. gen. do you remember a meeting of some gentlemen at the king's-head tavern in leaden hall-street ? capt. porter . yes , i do , sir. mr. soll. gen. then pray give an account of the company that were there , the time when , and what passd . capt. porter . my lord , the last year we had two meetings ; the first was in may , the other was the latter end of may , or the beginning of june ; the first was at the kings-head in leaden-hall-street ; there were my lord of aylesbury , my lord montgomery , sir john fenwick , sir john freind , sir william parkyns , mr. chernock , mr. cook and my self ; mr. goodman came in after dinner ; at this meeting it was consulted which was the best way and the quickest to restore king james , and hasten his return into england ; several discourses and proposals there were ; at last it was agreed to send mr. chernock to the late king to borrow of the french king ten thousand men , foot , horse , and dragoons , to be sent over into england to assist the king's restoration . says mr. chernock thereupon , this the king can do without your sending , and i wou'd not go upon a foolish errand . what will you do to assist in this matter ? the company desir'd him to promise king james , that if he wou'd send word when he landed , and where , they wou'd be sure to meet him at his landing with a body of horse . mr. att. gen. was the prisoner at the barr in the company , and present at this resolution ? capt. porter . yes , he was . mr. att. gen. did all the company agree to it ? capt. porter . yes , they did . mr. att. gen. what signs were there of their agreement ? did they stand up severally and declare their agreement , or how ? capt. porter . my lord of aylesbury and sir john fenwick did rise up , and desired captain chernock , that he wou'd go upon this errand : and when the question was ask'd severally of all there present by mr. chernock , whether he might assure the king of what they had told him ? every one said yes , you may ; and mr. cook kneel'd indeed upon a chair , and said yes , you may . mr. att. gen. did he give his consent to it ? capt. porter . yes , he answer'd in those very words . mr. soll. gen. do you remember any meeting of any company at mrs. mountjoy's ? capt. porter . yes , that was a second meeting . mr. soll. gen. pray tell my lord and the jury , how you came to meet there then , what company were there , and what pass'd . capt. porter . mr. chernock desir'd another meeting , to see if the gentlemen kept to their former resolution ; and we met at mrs. mountjoy's eight or ten days after , and there were most of the company that was at the first meeting , and there all that were present did assure mr. chernock that they kept to their first resolution , and wou'd abide to what was agreed upon at the former meeting . mr. att. gen. who were present at the second meeting ? capt. porter . the prisoner at the barr was there at that second meeting . mr. att. gen. what was that second meeting for , do you say ? capt. porter . it was to give mr. chernock assurance , that we were agreed to stand by the resolution taken at the first meeting . mr. att. gen. what did mr. chernock do afterwards ? capt. porter . i went away from them ; there was sir william parkyns , sir john freind and captain chernock went to the queens-head tavern in fleetstreet , and captain chernock told me he wou'd go in two or three days , and i believe did so . mr. att. gen. when did you see him afterwards ? capt. porter . when i was a prisoner upon the account of the riot in drury-lane ; about two or three days after i came to newgate he came to see me , and said he had been in france ; and that king james thank'd us for our kind offer , but the french king cou'd not spare so many men that year ; and he told me he had been with my lord of aylesbury , and the rest of the gentlemen that had imploy'd him to go over , and had delivered them the several messages that he was ordered to do from the king. l. c. j. treby . captain porter , who were present at that second meeting , do you say ? capt. porter . my lord of aylesbury , sir john freind , sir william parkyns , captain chernock , mr. cook and my self ; i cannot tell whether my lord montgomery or mr. goodman were at that second meeting or no. mr. att. gen. captain porter , i wou'd ask you another question : you were concerned in the assassination with those other persons that ingaged in it ; pray what safety did you propose to your selves after the assassination was over ? capt. porter . my lord , i ask'd sir george barclay what we shou'd do after the fact was committed : says he , you need fear nothing , i will go away that night , i have a ship ready , and the king will be landed in five or six days afterwards ; if you 'll but keep selves close for so many days , all will do well . mr. soll. gen. if the prisoner or the counsel will ask him any questions , my lord , they may do it . sir b. shower . pray sir , can you recollect what time a day this was that this debate and resolution were had at the old king's-head in leaden-hall-street ? capt. porter . truly sir bartholomew , i can't tell . sir b. shower . pray , by what means do you recollect that this was in the month of may ? capt. porter . because captain chernock was absent at the dog-tavern riot , which was the tenth of june . sir b. shower . was it not in april ? capt. porter . no , sir ; to the best of my remembrance it was in may. sir b. shower . what makes you think it was in may rather than april ? capt. porter . i have told you sir , because both meetings were before the dog-tavern riot , the tenth of june , and mr. chernock was not there at that time ; but he told me afterwards he had been in france , and there were eight or ten days difference between the two meetings . mr. att. gen. my lord , if they have done with him , i wou'd ask him one question , to settle this matter in point of time. capt. porter , was the king gone to flanders when you had these meetings ? capt. porter . the king was gone , sir , before the first meeting . mr. att. gen. the king did not go till several days in may ; was mr. goodman there ? capt. porter . he was at the first meeting , but i can't tell whether he was at the second or no. mr. serj. darnall . pray what time was mr. goodman there at the first meeting ? capt. porter . he came up after dinner at the first meeting . mr. baker . then call down mr. goodman , who came in , and was sworn . mr. soll. gen. mr. goodman , pray will you give my lord and the jury an account what you know of an intended invasion upon this kingdom ; what were the circumstances of it , and who were concerned in it . mr. goodman . my lord , about the middle of may last , or thereabouts , captain porter sent to me , and told me there was a meeting of some gentlemen of our acquaintance at the king's-head in leaden-hall-street ; and he desired me that i wou'd be there , because it was about business : i told him i did not know whether i cou'd be there at dinner ; but however , i wou'd not fail of coming thither after dinner ; and accordingly i came . when i came into the house , i sent up my name to captain porter , and he came down and brought me up stairs , and there i saw my lord , montgomery , my lord of aylesbury , sir john fenwick , sir william parkyns , sir john freind , mr. chernock , and that gentleman at the barr , mr. cook : when we were there , the discourse was , that we did think king james's coming was retarded , and we wou'd do any thing to facilitate his restoration . cook. my lord chief justice . l. c. j. treby . what say you , mr. cook ? cook. my lord , if your lordship pleases , i desire the jury may not be talk'd to by any body ; and i understand there are some talking with the jury . l. c. j. treby . fye upon it , we will lay any body by the heels that do so , they must neither be disturbed , nor instructed by any body . cook. my lord , i am inform'd there was some-body talking to them , and telling them this was the same case with sir john freind . l. c. j. treby . do you but show us the man , and we will find another place for him ; we will send him to the goal , i 'll assure you . mr. burleigh . this gentleman , my lord , did hear such a discourse to the jury ( pointing to a gentleman there ) who stood up . my lord , i cannot positively swear to the man , but i did hear some discourse that it was the same evidence as in the former tryal . l. c. j. treby . if you can show us who it was , we will take care to punish him : i suppose he stands corrected ; and if we knew who he was , he shou'd stand committed . mr. att. gen. pray , mr. goodman , begin again , and tell what pass'd at that meeting , because the jury were interrupted from hearing by people's buzzing about them . mr. goodman . my lord , when captain porter brought me up into the room , i told you what gentlemen i found there ; after we were set down , there was a consultation , that considering the french king's wars retarded the affair of sending back king james , and the means of restoring him to the crown , it was fit we shou'd find out some way or method to facilitate his restoration , and it was thought convenient to have a messenger to send over to king james with proposals for that purpose ; to this effect , as near as i remember , that if king james cou'd prevail with the french king to furnish ten thousand men , whereof to be foot , horse , and dragoons , we wou'd endeavour to meet him at the head of as many horse as we cou'd raise , to sustain those forces at their landing : this was debated , in order to come to a resolution ; and much difficulty there was how many the number should be ; the man pitch'd upon to be sent , was mr. chernock ; and after some debate , how many thousand horse could be raised : says mr. chernock , don't let me go over upon a foolish errand , but let me know what i have to say exactly : thereupon it was concluded by all , that two thousand horse should be the number we cou'd promise , and the king might depend upon them ; and if we brought more , so much the better ; and sir john freind said , i believe he has so many friends here , that if he came himself , he might be welcome ; but that we did not think fit to trust to ; and no body wou'd advise any such thing : when the resolution of the thing and the number was thus fix'd , mr. chernock ask'd whether it were with all our consents ? and that he might assure the king , that this was our resolution thereupon ? we all rose up , and said to him , yes , you may , yes , you may , every one particularly ; and i remember one thing particularly concerning the prisoner mr. cook , that he kneel'd upon the chair when he said yes , you may ; and his elbows were upon the table : this is all that i know of that meeting . there was to be another meeting , as captain porter told me ; but i had business in the city : but whatsoever he promised on my behalf , as to the quota of men , i wou'd be sure to make it good ; and i was not at the second meeting . mr. att. gen. did you see mr. chernock afterwards ? mr. goodman . yes , i did , when he came back ; and he told me the things was not accepted , for the french king cou'd not spare men , and that he had been with the several gentlemen to carry them the complements that he had in charge from king james , who returned them thankes for their good affection ; and among the rest , he did me the honour to return me thanks too . sir b. shower . pray , mr. goodman , let me ask you a question : when was it that you saw mr. chernock after this ? mr. goodman . it was in arundel-street , at his lodgings . sir b. shower . but i ask you , sir , when it was ? was it before or after the tenth of june ? mr. goodman . it was after the tenth of june , sir. sir b. shower . how long after , pray . mr. goodman . i believe it was a month after the tenth of june . sir b. shower . did you see him here in england before mr. porter was discharged from the riot , and came out of newgate ? mr. goodman . i believe i did see him before capt. porter was discharged , long . mr. serj. darnall . who were the persons that were present at that meeting ? mr. goodman . my lord montgomery , my lord of aylesbury , sir john fenwick , sir john freind , sir wiliam parkyns , mr. chernock , capt. porter , and the prisoner at the barr , mr. cook. mr. serj. darnall . were you at dinner with them , sir ? mr. goodman . no , i came in after dinner . mr. serj. darnall . pray what house was it , do you say , this meeting was at ? mr. goodman . it was at the king's-head in leaden-hall-street . sir b. shower . can you tell what day of the week it was ? mr. goodman . no , nor the day of the month. sir b. shower . was you ever in the company of these gentlemen at any other time ? mr. goodman . no , this was the only time that i heard of this consultation ; i was not at the second meeting . cook. if your lordship pleases , may i ask mr. goodman any questions ? l. c. j. treby . yes , by all means ask him what you will. cook. mr. goodman , you are upon yor oath : but did you ever hear me speak ten words in your life ? was you ever in my company in any house , before or since ? mr. goodman . yes , sir ; i was in your company at the cock in bow-street , where you came in accidentally . cook. did you ever hear me talk of the government , or any thing of that nature ? mr. goodman . what the discourse was of , i cannot particularly say , but i am certain you was there : and as to the consultation that i now speak of , i remember very well you gave your consent in that manner as i have told the court. mr. att. gen. my lord , we have done at the present . l. c. j. treby . then , brother darnall , what say you for the prisoner ? mr. serj. darnall . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury : i am counsel , in this case , for the prisoner at the bar , mr. cook , who stands indicted of a very great offence , no less , gentlemen , than high-treason ; and if he be guilty , his punishment will be as great : but because the punishment and the offence are both very great , the law requires exact positive proof , and that by two credible witnesses . there have been two indeed that have been produced to you ; and if you believe both of them , after what we shall offer to you against them ; and if what they swear be true , the prisoner is guilty : but if we satisfie you that either of them is not to be credited , so that you do not believe both of them , he must be acquitted . there is no doubt , gentlemen , but that here has been a villanous horrid plot ; there is no question of it ; and it was , as it has been opened , basely to assassinate one of the bravest men living ; and to make the happiest people in the world , if they know when they are so , the most miserable people upon earth , by bringing them under french tyranny and slavery . many of the traytors have been brought to just punishment for this treason ; nay , they have own'd the fact at their death's , so that there is no question of the truth of it ; and therefore , gentlemen , every honest man will endeavour to bring such as are plainly guilty , of such an abominable conspiracy , to just punishment ; but yet they will be as carefull not to let an innocent man suffer ; that , gentlemen , every honest man will take care of , and especially such as are upon their oaths : it concerns a jury highly to be satisfied , that he is not innocent , whom they bring in guilty ; for 't is better that twenty guilty men shou'd escape , than one innocent man suffer . but , gentlemen , if my brief be true , we shall give you such an account of one of these witnesses ; first , as to the man himself ; that he is not a man to be credited as a witness ; and then besides that , as to the evidence he gives in this case ; ( i say , if my brief be true ) it is false , and we shall prove it so ; and when you have heard our evidence , if you are satisfied that one of these witnesses is not to be credited , or that what he swears is not true , you are to acquit the prisoner . gentlemen , here has been one mr. goodman produced as a witness , one that never was produced before at the tryal of any of those that have suffered , so that the truth of their guilt does not at all depend upon his evidence , nor does it give any credit to it . this is this gentleman's first entry upon this stage ; and yet ( if my brief be true ) this is not the first bloody or cruel part that he has acted ; for we have a record of conviction against him , whereby it will appear to you , that he was indicted ( for endeavouring to poison two great dukes ) for giving forty guinea's to an italian emprick , one amidei , and promising two hundred pounds more when it was effected , to poison the late duke of graston and the present duke of northumberland ; and we shall shew you , that he was convicted of it , and fined a thousand pound for the offence ; which , considering the meanness of his circumstances at that time , was as much as twenty thousand pounds ; for he could as well have paid twenty , as one then ; and it appears too , that mr. goodman ( nay , it will not be denied by him himself ) was in this horrid plot ; and he that wou'd be concern'd to poison two dukes in a family , to which he had so many obligations — mr. goodman . my lord , i desire leave to speak to this matter that the serjeant mentions . mr. serj. darnall . pray , sir , let me go on ; you may talk anon ; i have seen the copy of the record of conviction , and have it ready to produce . mr. att. gen. mr. goodman , be quiet , and stay till by and by ; you will be defended , no doubt , on it ; but in the mean time let them go on , and don 't interrupt them . mr. serj. darnall . i say , my lord , he that wou'd be concern'd in so vile an act , as a contrivance to take away the lives of two great dukes , ( who were , in effect , his young mastes , ) that he shou'd go to poison them in a family to which he had been so much obliged ; and then , he that wou'd be concerned in so horrid a plot as this was , to destroy his country , and take away the life of the king ; sure it will be no difficult thing to think that this man will not stick at the little prisoner's life at the barr , especially when he has so great a temptation to it , as to save his own life by it . but perhaps some of you may doubt whether it is to save his own life or no : but i believe there are none of you would give any credit to him , if you thought so : therefore , to satisfie you of that fact , we shall produce you evidence of his own opinion of that matter , besides the general known circumstances he lay under ; as , that he was long in prison before he charged the prisoner with any thing , and the prisoner was at liberty , went every day abroad for a week after mr. chernock's tryal , and never absconded one minute , but lived publickly , openly and visibly to all his friends , and all strangers : but besides , gentlemen , that mr. goodman knew he must dye , and justly and deservedly for this horrid plot and treason himself ; and had no other way left to save his life , but to come in thus as an evidence and an accuser , which we think will shake his credit with you . i say , besides all this , ( if my brief be true , ) we shall prove that he has said himself , that either he must hang peter cook , or he must be hang'd himself . thus , gentlemen , he swears to save his own life , by taking away another's . this , gentlemen , is as to the man himself , that he is not to be credited . but now further , as to the evidence that he has given ; he tells you that he came into the tavern in leaden-hall-street , and that there he found such company ; he owns he came in after dinner ; and that the other gentleman , mr. porter , owns too ; he says there were present at this meeting , my lord montgomery , my lord of aylesbury , mr. cook , and several other gentlemen ; but ( if my brief be true ) we shall prove by three witnesses , that he was not there till they were gone ; and that will make an end of all the pretence of his evidence . mr. att. gen. nay , then we shall never have done . mr. serj. darn . i 'll assure you , sir , i have the names of three witnesses in my brief , to prove that my lord of ailesbury , my lord montgomery , and mr. cook , were gone before he came in , tho' if any , or either of them were gone , it destroys his testimony ; and if we prove this to you , i wou'd be loath to be one of the jury that should take away the prisoner's life upon this evidence ; no , it he were the vilest man alive , and much less the life of the prisoner at the bar ; for we shall prove ( if my brief be true . ) he is a man of morals , a man of virtue , one that has a great love for his country ; and this we shall prove by evidence undeniable ▪ persons of quality in their country , such as serve their country in parliament , as their representatives ; we shal shew it by such evidence , that there will be no room to doubt of it : he is a man without any stain or blot upon him , til this accusation ; he is the eldest son of his father , and heir to a great estate ; his father is a great officer , and a great getter under this government ; and can it be imagin'd , or believ'd , that such a man would be guilty of the worst of treasons , to destroy the religion he professes , to over-turn the state , to ruine his own estate , himself and his posterity , which must be the consequence of it ? nay , if two good witnesses cou'd be produc'd to testifie it , and if we had not had so much to take off the credit of goodman , i cou'd hardly believe it of any man that was in his right senses ; he must have been a mad-man if he had done it , one that stood so well with the present government , and of a family never tainted with disloyalty . certainly , gentlemen , when we make out this to you against mr. goodman , the prisoner can be in no danger of his life , from mr. goodman's evidence , tho' he is an unfortunate man to come under such an accusation ; but i cannot believe that any jury , upon such a man's evidence , will brand an honest family with the foulest , vilest , blackest treason that ever was hatch'd ; no , gentlemen , you are men of ability and understanding , and that is it we relie upon ; we doubt not but that you will consider the evidence , and consider your oaths , and not let the prisoner's blood lie at your doors ; therefore we shall go on and call our witnesses to make out what i have open'd . sir b. shower . my lord , we desire to call our witnesses , and i shall reserve my self to make some observations after we have given our evidence : mr. serj. has open'd as much as we can prove , and we will now produce our evidence ; first we will shew the conviction of goodman : mr. burleigh , where is the conviction ? mr. brul . here it is , sir ? sir. b. shower . where had you it , sir ? mr. burleigh , out of the treasury at westminster ? sir b. shower . is it a true copy , did you examine it there ? mr. burleigh . yes , it is a true copy , i did examine it with the record . sir b. shower . then read it , mr. tanner . cl. of arr. read — michaelmas term : tricesimo secundo caroli secundi . l. c. j. treby . read the record in english to the jury . cl. of arr. ( reads ) . be it remember'd , that sir robert sawyer , knight , attorney general of our lord the king that now is , who for the same our lord the king in this part sueth , came here in the court of our said lord the king , before the king himself at westminster , on thursday next after three weeks of st. michael , the same term ; and for the same our lord the king , brought here into the court of our said lord the king , before the said king , then and there , a certain information against cardell goodman , late of the parish of st. martin in the fields , in the country of middlesex , gentleman , which information follows in these words . scilicet , middlesex scilicet , be it remember'd that sir robert sawyer , knight , attorney general of our said lord the king that now is , who for the same our lord the king , in this behalf sueth , in his own proper person came here into the court of our said lord the king , before the king himself at westminster , on thursday next after three weeks of st. michael that same term , and for the same our lord the king , gives the court here to understand and be inform'd , that cardell goodman , late of the parish of st. martin in the fields , in the county of middlesex , gentleman , being a person of a wicked mind , and of an ungodly and devilish disposition , and conversation and contriving , practising , and falsely , maliciously and devilishly intending death , and poisoning and final destruction unto the right nobel henry , duke of grafton , and george , duke of northumberland , and that the aforesaid cardell goodman , his most wicked , most impious , and devilish intentions , contrivances and practices aforesaid , to fulfil , perfect , and bring to effect , the thirtieth day of september , in the six and thirtieth year of the reign of our lord charles the second , now king of england , &c. and diverse other days , and times , as well before as after , at the parish of st. martin in the fields , in the country of middlesex , with force and arms , &c. falsely , unlawfully unjustly , wickedly , and devilishly , by unlawful ways and means , did solicite , perswade , and endeavour to procure one alexander amydei , to prepare and procure two flasks of florence wine , to be mix'd with deadly poison , for the poisoning of the aforesaid right noble , henry , duke of grafton , and george , duke of northumberland , and his most impious , and devilish contrivances , practices and intentions aforesaid , to fulfil , perfect and the more to bring to effect , the aforesaid cardell goodman , the day and year abovesaid , at the parish aforesaid , in the country aforesaid , falsely , unlawfully , unjustly , maliciously and devilishly , did promise and agree , to give unto the aforesaid alexander amydei , forty pieces of guniea-gold , of the value of forty pound , of lawful money of england , if he the said alexander amydei wou'd prepare , procure and provide two flasks of florence wine , to be mix'd with deadly poison , for the poisoning of the aforesaid right noble henry , duke of grafton , and george , duke of northumberland ; and if the aforesaid poison with the wine aforesaid to be mix'd , shou'd effect the death of the aforesaid henry , duke of grafton , and george , duke of northumberland ; that then he the said cardell goodman , wou'd give unto the said alexander amydei , the summ of one hundred pounds , and that beyond sea he wou'd maintain the said alexander all the days of him the said alexander , to the evil and most pernicious example of all others in the like case offending , and against the peace of our said lord the king that now is , his crown and dignity , &c. — then here is process pray'd by the attorney general against mr. goodman , who comes , and by his attorney pleads not guilty , and here is issue joyn'd . sir b. shower . well , see for the verdict . cl. of arr. there was a tryal at ni●i prius , and the jury find that the said cardell goodman is guilty of the premisses in the information specify'd , as by the information is supposed against him . sir b. shower . now read the judgment . cl. of arr. thereupon it is consider'd , that the said cardell goodman do pay to the king , the summ of one thousand pounds , for his fine , impos'd upon him for the occasion a foresaid , and that the aforesaid cardell goodman be committed to the marshalsea of this court , in execution for his fine aforesaid , that he be safely kept there , till he pay his fine aforesaid ; and before that the said cardell goodman , is deliver'd out of the prison aforesaid , he shall give security to behave himself well , during his life , and also shall give security for the peace to be kept towards the said lord the king , and all his people , and particularly towards the right noble henry , duke of grafton , and george , duke of northumberland . mr. serj. darn . so , you hear the record of the information , conviction and judgment , for a very horrid , abominable crime . mr. att. gen. but i desire they may now go on , and read the whole of the record . cl. of arr. reads . and afterwards , to wit , on friday next after eight days of st. hilary , in the thirty sixth , and thirty seventh years of the reign of our said lord the king that now is , before our said lord the king at westminster came the aforesaid sir robert sawyer , knight , attorney general of the said lord the king that now is , and acknowledged that the said cardell goodman , has satisfy'd to our said lord the king that now is , of the judgment aforesaid against him , in form aforesaid given , therefore the said cardell goodman is thereof acquitted , and so forth . mr. serj. darn . call mr. charles edwards , william cock , christopher crawford , marry crawford , and mr. huntley . edwards appear'd upon a habeas corpus , directed to the keeper of newgate , where he was a prisoner . mr. baker . where is the warrant of his commitment ? what is he committed for ? tokefeild . he is committed for suspicion of treason , and treasonable practices . mr. baker . is he not committed for high-treason ? tokefeild . no , sir , he is not . mr. serj. darn . what discourse had you with mr. goodman , concerning the prisoner at the bar , what did you here him say ? mr. baker . he is not sworn yet , it seems this gentleman was dundee's chaplain in scotland . mr. attorn . gen. if he be not sworn , he can give no evidence . mr. serj. darn . my lord , we desire he may be sworn . l. c. j. treby . sware him , ( which was done ) . mr. serj. darn . pray , sir , will you tell the court , and the jury , what you know of any discourse of mr. goodman's , concerning the prisoner at the bar. edwards . my lord , i desire to know , being ignorant of the law , whether i am brought here by the common course of justice or not ? mr. serj. darn . sir , we have subpena'd you for the prisoner at the bar , to give evidence of the truth of you knowledge here upon oath . l. c. j. treby . would you have us tell you how you came here ? we suppose you came by due process of law , as a witness . edwards . then , my lord , i desire to speak but one word , that is a strange thing to me to consider , how words should be carried away that were privately spoken , as if it were to expose me to the reproaches of all my friends ; it is a thing that i did never expect to hear of again : however , seeing i am called here , and obliged upon my oath to declare what i know , i , by god's grace , will to the uttermost of my power , tell what has pass'd in this matter . l. c. j. treby . don't make any apologies for telling the truth ; you are obliged by your oath to do it , and the court expects it from you . edwards . among other discourses that pass'd betwixt mr. goodman and me , i ask'd him when mr. cook was to be arraigned , and when he was to be tryed ; says he , he is to be arraigned upon monday , and he is to be tryed upon thursday : i ask'd him whether it was for the assassination-plot , and he told me , no ; for what then , said i , as being concerned in sending mr. chernock into france ? who are the evidences against him , said i ? said he , capt. porter , and my self ; said i , i believe two witnesses will be found good , or by way of demonstration in law ; and i pity the poor gentleman's case . says he , he swore against me ; how comes it then , said i , that he is not come off , and has not a pardon , and would divulge no body else ? l. c. j. treby . who had not a pardon do you mean ? edwards . mr. cook. i ask'd how he had not a pardon ; says he , he wou'd give an account of no body else but me , and that was the reason he had no pardon ; said i to him , who are the evidences against him ? says he , capt. porter , and my self , and after this , says he , he , or i , must perish , or he , or i , must suffer , i believe the word was suffer ; but , says he , 't is a foolish thing to be hang'd ; all that 's said of a man that is hang'd , is , that he hang'd hansomly , or he dy'd bravely , that 's all the discourse that i can remember . mr. serj. darn . he said it was a foolish thing to be hang'd , and mr. goodman , it seems , had no mind to be hang'd ; and i believe so too : but he must not hang my client , to save his own life . edwards . now , by the same oath that i have sworn , i knew nothing of being brought hither , till my words were carry'd away privately from me , and has been consulted of , and return'd to me back again ; and i was far from suborning or carrying away a discourse privately to make any advantage of it . mr. serj. darn . now we will call crawford , and huntley , and cock. mr. attorn . gen. i desire that gentleman that was last examin'd may not go away . [ crawford , huntley , and cock were sworn . ] sir. b. shower . set up mr. crawford ( which was done ) pray , sir , will you recollect your self ; do you remember when my lord of ailesbury and capt. porter din'd at the king's head. crawford . yes ; it was about a twelve month ago . mr. serj. darn . what company was there ? crawford . my lord of ailesbury , sir john friend , sir john fenwick , sir william parkyns , capt. porter , and two or three more , i did not know their names . sir. b. shower . how many were there that din'd there ? crawford . i think about eight in all . sir. b. shower . was the room shut while they were there , or did the servants and drawers , go up and down commonly ? crawford . yes they did go up and down commonly . sir b. shower . after dinner did any body come to them while they were there ? crawford . no , not during my lord of ailesbury's stay , and my lord montgomery went away with him ? sir. b. shower . about time did my lord of ailesbury go away ? crawford . i think it was about four a clock . sir. b. shower . how can you tell it ? crawford . i did attend upon them the most part of the time . sir. b. shower . did you see him go away ? crawford . yes , i did . sir b. sh. was that gentleman , mr. goodman , there , when they went away ? crawford . i did not see him there , to my remembrance ; no body came in there before they went away , saving their own servants . mr. serj. darn . do you know mr. cook , the prisoner at the bar , was he one of the gentlemen that were at your house ? crawford . yes , i did not well remember or recollect , till i saw him on saturday last . mr. attorn . gen. was he one that went away ? crawford . i do not remember truly , sir. mr. att. gen. prav how long was it after dinner that they went away ? crawford . i think it was not an hour . mr. att. gen. was you there all the time , from the time of the dinner ? crawf . no , not all the while i was not in the room , but going to and fro . mr. serj. darn . you say mr. goodman did not come up till after they were gone ? crawford . no , i did not see him . mr. attorn . gen. did you see him at all ? crawford . no , i did not see him at all . mr. attorn . gen. just now it was said he did not come till they were gone , and now it seemes he did not see him at all . crawford . i do not know that he was there at all . l. c. j. tre. but , brother darnall , you open'd it , that mr. goodman came after my lord of ailesbury was gone , and now you will prove it that he came not at all . sir. b. shower . my lord , we do not pretend to falsifie his evidence for any thing more than is material for the prisoner ; we say mr. goodman was not in the room where they din'd till those persons went away , if in any particular we disprove him . it is sufficient for us ; if we can shew that he was not there till three of those that he had nam'd were gone away , that answers our end . we are not concerned if he came at four , five , or six a clock , and discours'd with chernock till twelve a clock at night . mr. att. gen. pray reserve your remarks , but only observe now what he says , that mr. goodman came not at all thither , and that is more than you pretended to open . mr. conyers . how many were there that were there at dinner ? crawf . about eight . mr. conyers . how many do you name that you know ? crawf . my lord of ailesbury , sir john friend , sir john fenwick , sir william parkyns , and capt. porter , there were several others ; two or three more , but i did not know their names . mr. conyers . did you see mr. goodman come in at any part of the day afterwards ? crawf . i do not know that mr. goodman . mr. cowper . mr. crawford , you say , that for an hour after dinner you were sometimes in the room and sometimes out ; when you were out of the room , were you always in the passage up to the room ? crawf . no , i was not . mr. cowper . cou'd any man come in or out without your seeing ? crawf . i should have known him above stairs when i came in again . mr. cowper . why , you say , there were two or three above that you did not know . crawf . i knew them by sight , if not their names . mr. cowper . were you always in sight then ? crawf . no , sir , i tell you i was up and down . sir. b. shower . was there any body came in before my lord of ailesbury went out , that is , any body besides those that din'd there ? crawf . no. sir b. shower . my lord , we are not contending now about a man's comeing up without his knowledge , but whether any such man , as mr. goodman , came up and staid there , during the consultation , and we insist upon it ; there was no body there , till my lord of ailesbury , my lord montgomery , and mr. cook were gone , but those that din'd there : now i would ask a question again of him , was there any body but who din'd there , till my lord of ailesbury went away ? crawf . no , there was not . mr. att. gen. why do you say so ? how do you know that ? crawf . i did not see any body . mr. sol. gen. did you attend upon other rooms , as well as that , at the same time ? crawf . yes , i did . mr. sol. gen. then how is it possible that he can swear that mr. goodman was not there ? sir b. shower . do you remember when my lord of alesbury and they went away ? crawford . it was about four a clock . sir b. shower . were you there in the room when they went away ? crawf . i went out with my lord to the coach. sir b. shower . did you see him come down stairs , or did you go up stairs then ? crawf . i went up stairs when the coach was called . sir b. shower . was then any body there but such as din'd there ? crawf . i did not see any body there but those that din'd there . mr. cowper . but , my lord , he does not know all that din'd there neither . l. c. j. treby . mr. crawford , you say my lord of ailesbury and others went away about four a clock ; pray how long did the rest of the company stay there ? crawf . i cannot remember . they stay'd there pretty late : it is a pretty while ago . l. c. j. treby . about what hour did they part ? crawf . i cannot remember what time the rest went away ; our house is fuller at night than at noon ; and i waited upon other companies . it was pretty late before they went away , that i am sure . l. c. j. treby . but he cannot remember whether it were five , or six , or twelve that they went away , only he can remember the hour of four , that my lord of ailesbury and they went away . mr. j. rokeby . was it light , or was it dark when they went away ? crawford . it was dark . l. c. j. treby . did you attend the company after my lord of aliesbury was gone ? crawford . i went up and down into that company as i did into others . l. c. j. treby . was you there several times after my lord of ailesbury was gone ? crawf . yes , i was there once or twice after my lord of ailesbury was gone , i am sure . l. c. j. treby . and did you never see mr. goodman there ? crawf . no , i never saw mr. goodman in my life , before i saw him on saturday last . sir b. shower . which is mr. huntley ? huntley . here i am , sir. sir b. shower . pray recollect your self , and tell my lord and the jury what you remember of any company that were with mr. porter , at the king's-head , and who din'd there . huntley . my lord of ailesbury , my lord montgomery , sir john fenwick , sir william parkyns , sir john friend , mr. porter and mr. chernock . sir b. shower . that was the company , you say , that din'd there : did mr. goodman dine there ? huntley . no , mr. goodman did not dine there . sir b. shower . pray , sir , recollect your self , when did any of this company part , or go away ? huntley . my lord of ailesbury , and my lord montgomery went away about four a clock . sir b. shower . sir , how do you know that ? huntley . i went down stairs after them , i was above stairs when they parted from the rest of the company . mr. serj. darn . pray mind , sir , was mr. goodman there at that time before they went away ? huntley . no , he was not . sir b. shower . are you sure of that , upon the oath you have taken ? huntley . yes , i take it upon my oath , he was not there . sir b. shower . did you attend them at dinner ? huntley . yes , i did attend them at dinner . sir b. shower . did you attend them all the while they were there ? huntley . i was call'd frequently , and was in and out of the room very much after dinner . sir b. shower . do you think if a fresh man had come in after dinner , you should not have known him ? huntley . yes , i should have known him . mr. att. gen. pray , friend , let me ask you one question . was mr. goodman there at all that day ? huntley . that i don't know , i did not see him at all . mr. sol. gen. did you attend upon any other rooms that day ? huntley . no , i attended only upon that company . mr. sol. gen. were you in the room all the time ? huntley . no , i went up and down . mr. sol. gen. what time did the last of the company go away ? huntley . it was about darkish , it was pretty late to the best of my remembrance . mr. att. gen. pray , did any body come to those gentlemen after dinner ? huntley . no , sir. mr. att. gen. did you ever see goodman before now ? huntley . never in my life , to my knowledge . mr. j. rokeby . did all the company , but my lord of ailesbury , and my lord montgomery , stay till it was duskish ? huntley . that i don't know . mr. j. rokeby . did you know all the company that was that day at dinner ? huntley . i knew all but one . mr. j. rokeby . and who was that ? huntley . that was mr. chernock . mr. j. rokeby . and yet you can't tell whether there was any body else that you did not know , how then can you tell that goodman was not there ? sir b. shower . he did not know him at that time , but he might remember him afterwards . mr. conyers . did not the same company use to meet at other times , at your house ? huntl . not to my remembrance . mr. con. how then came you , if they never had us'd to meet there , to know all these people's names ? huntley , i have seen sir john friend there , and sir william parkyns . mr. con. was sir john friend there , or no ? huntl . yes , he was . mr. con. my lord , he was the only man that was not nam'd before , you did not name sir john friend before , as i heard , but pray , did you ever see mr. chernock there , but at that time ? huntley . no , i did not . mr. con. how came you to know it was mr. chernock ? huntl . i knew very few of them before that time , and i ask'd their servants the names of all those persons that were there ? mr. con. did you know mr. porter , pray ? huntl . not before that time , i did see mr. porter , and i knew him again when i saw him , his black told me his name that day . sir b. shower . you , huntley , i would ask you one question more , was the door shut , or no ? huntl . no , it was not . sir b. shower . did the servants go up and down as they us'd to do ? huntl . yes , sir. mr. att. gen. sir bartholomew would make it that there was no consultation at all . sir b. shower . they wer very mad folks if they wou'd consult at that rate with the door open . pray call mr. william cock , ( who was sworn ) . mr. att. gen. sir john friend has own'd it , that 's dead . sir b. shower . sir john friend's confession is nothing to the prisoner . mr. att. gen. mr. serj. darnall did open , that the confession of those that dy'd , was an undeniable proof of the conspiracy ; but go on with your evidence . mr. sarj . darn . pray mr. cock , will you recollect your self , about the time when cap. porter , and some other gentlemen din'd at your house . w. cock. yes , very well . mr. serj. darn . pray , sir , can you tell who din'd there at that time ? w. cock. there were my lord of ailesbury , my lord montgomery , sir william parkyns , sir john fenwick , sir john friend , mr. chernock , cap. porter and mr. cook. mr. j. rokeby . was that all the company ? w. cock. yes , it was . mr. j. rokeby . one of them said there were eight . l. c. j. treby . and he has nam'd eight , brother . m. serj. darn . can you remember when any of the company went away , and who went away first ? cock. my lord of aylesbury and my lord montgomery went away in a hackney coach ; and their servants were frequently in the room , and waited afterwards in another room , after that they had waited at table at dinner ; and tho' the door was shut , as it used to be when any company is there , yet no body was forbid to come there at all . mr. att. gen. do you remember when mr. goodman came there ? cock. i never saw mr. goodman in my life before to day . mr. serj. darnall . did any body come to this company before my lord of aylesbury went away that did not dine there ? cock. i did not see any body there at all ; and my lord of aylesbury was about buying a hogshead of white-wine , but we could not agree about the price : and when my lord of aylesbury went away , i went down with my lord , and waited upon him to the coach ; and i told my lord , i hoped he would buy the wine still . but he answered , he could not tell whether he should or no. mr. serj. darnall . who else went with my lord of aylesbury ? cock. my lord montgomery . i don't remember any body else . mr. j. rokeby . did all the rest of the company go away at once ? cock. truly , my lord , i can't say they did . mr. j. rokeby . by what time did the rest go away ? cock. i believe it might be eight or nine a clock . mr. serj. darnall . you saw my lord of aylesbury when he parted : was mr. goodman there then ? cock. i did not see him . mr. b. powis . did mr. cook stay till the last ? cock. that i can't tell truly . mr. b. powis . i find they all swear to four a clock of my lord aylesbury's going , and go no further . mr. att. gen. pray , sir , let me ask you a question or two : did you ever see mr. goodman before now ? cock. no , i do not remember i did . mr. att. gen. when you went into the room after dinner , did you look about the room to see whether there were any new company ? cock. i did look about the room several times , and so did my servants , to see if there were any thing wanting . mr. att. gen. can you take it upon your oath , that he was not there whilst my lord of aylesbury staid ? cock. i do , and can take it upon my oath , he was not . mr. att. gen. then if you can , pray distinguish the time when he came in . cock. i do not remember that ever i saw him in my life before to day . mr. att. gen. why are you not as positive that he was not there at all , as that he was not there before my lord of aylesbury went away ? cock. he might come in , and i not see him . mr. att. gen. might he not as well come in before they went away , as after to come in and you not see him ? cock. no , i do not think he cou'd . mr. att. gen. why do you think so ? cock. because the servants were all about , and they did not go to dinner till two a clock ; and i believe those gentlemen that i named came in a quarter of an hour's time to dinner . mr. att. gen. we do not say he came there before dinner ; but cou'd he not come in after dinner , before my lord of aylesbury and my lord montgomery went away , without your seeing him ? cock. yes , sir. sir b. shower . then heark ye , sir , i wou'd ask you one question , did you see him , upon your oath , or not ? cock. no , i did not . sir b. shower . might not mr. goodman come in to them without your seeing him ? cock. it is possible , but i don't think it was so . mr. j. rokeby . how then can you be positive that he was not there till my lord of aylesbury went ? mr. sol. gen. you say you may be positive he was not there before my lord of aylesbury went : can you be as positive now , that he was not there before mr. cook went ? cock. i do not know when mr. cook went. mr. sol. gen. how can you be then positive he was not there before my lord of aylesbury went ? cock. there were no more than what dined there when my lord of aylesbury went away . mr. conyers . pray , sir , let me ask you a question : were you in the room at any time after dinner ? cock. yes , i was , sir. mr. conyers . pray , sir , how many times after dinner were you there ? cock. i believe half a dozen times . mr. sol. gen. and yet you do confess that mr. goodman might come in after dinner before my lord of aylesbury went , and you not see him ? sir b. shower . ay , but he could not stay there without his seeing him , if he was so often in the room ; you don't take mr. cock's evidence right . mr. att. gen. you named eight persons that dined at your house ; did you know them all personally before that day ? cock. yes , my lord , the most of them at least . mr. att. gen. did they use to meet at your house ? cock. commonly sir john friend did once a week . mr. chernock i knew when i was a drawer , and so i did sir william parkyns : the rest knew by hearing their names . mr. att. gen. did you know them before that day sir , i ask you ? cock. i had seen captain porter several times before that day , but i cannot say at my own house . sir b. shower . do you remember the treaty about the hogshead of white-wine ? cock. yes , sir , very well . sir b. shower . were you by when my lord of aylesbury went away , and spoke with him about it ? cock. yes , i was ; and told him , i hoped he would buy the wine still . sir b. shower . can you be positive that any body was there before my lord of aylesbury went away , that cou'd stay there any time , and did not dine there ? cock. i believe not , sir ; for i came in half a dozen times after dinner , and i believe if i had heard mr. goodman's name , or seen him there , i shou'd have remembred it ; but i did not see any body but those that dined there . mr. cowper . where was you when my lord of aylesbury went away ? where did you meet him going away ? cock. upon the stairs ; seeing my lord of aylesbury and my lord montgomery coming down , i met them . mr. cowper . where did you meet them ? at the middle , or the top of the stairs ? cock. my lord of aylesbury was at the top of the stairs . mr. cowper . did you meet him just coming out of the room ? cock. yes , sir , i saw the coach that was called for my lord ; and so i went up stairs , and met my lord at the top of the stairs coming down . mr. sol. gen. now how can you be positive who was in the room when he came out of the room ? cock. i went up into the room after my lord of aylesbury went away . mr. sol. gen. how long after my lord of aylesbury went away ? cock. it was presently after . mr. sol. gen. how long before my lord of aylesbury went away , had you been in the room ? cock. i had been there just before . mr. serj. darnall . call thomas peachy . ( who appeared , and was sworn . ) sir b. shower . my lord , we shall prove that after the plot broke out , and after mr. porter had made his discovery , there was no disturbance of mr. cook 'till a good while after chernock's trial ; and mr. cook was so far from being sensible or conscious of any guilt , that he never absconded , but continued for three weeks in his father's house , where he was taken by a messenger , pray mr. peachy will you tell my lord , and the jury , where mr. cook was taken , and when , and by whom ? peachy . he was taken at his father's house by a messenger , about seven a clock in the morning . sir b. shower . what day of the week was it he was taken ? peachy . upon a sunday morning , in his own room , in his father's house , at seven a clock in the morning . sir b. shower . did people come to him as they used to do ? peachy . yes , and he went frequently abroad as he used to do , and did never abscond from his father's house . mr. serj. darnall . pray swear mr. treganna . ( which was done . ) sir b. shower . mr. treganna , pray do you remember how long after the plot broke out did you see mr. cook ? treganna . after mr. chernock's trial a week he was at my chamber , after the plot broke out , he was concerned in a trial at winchester assizes , upon an issue out of chancery , mr. nicholls was the clerk in court , and went down to manage it at the assizes ; and mr. cook came to me a day or two after winchester assizes was over , and ask'd me if i had any news from the assizes ? this was long after the plot broke out , and i remember particularly that i saw him twice after the plot was discovered , at my chamber . sir b. shower . swear mr. nicholls . ( which was done . ) sir , pray will you tell my lord and the jury what you know of mr. cook 's appearing abroad after the plot was discovered ? mr. nicholls . i was sent down to the trial , i was present and did attend at two trials indeed , and i suppose mr. baron powis may remember that i attended at two trials at winchester assizes . mr. b. powis . possibly you might , sir ; i can't tell all the attendance at the assizes . mr. nicholls . and after my return from winchester assizes , mr. cook was with me several days , both at my office , and chamber , and at his father's office ; and i remember particularly that he threatned me that i was in trouble when i was at winchester , and therefore i remember it very well . sir. b. shower . mr. nicholls , you know mr. cook very well , pray what are his morals ? mr. nicholls . upon occasion of the cause in chancery that went to trial , i have had the knowledge of mr. cook five or six years , i always believed him to be as temperate a man as ever i met with . i think in five years time i was not above once with him in a tavern . sir b. shower . did you ever hear him swear ? mr. nicholls . no , never , nor vent a curse ; i believe he drank as little as any man , and was as godly a man ; i never heard him speak a foul word . sir b. shower . how do you know that , sir , that he was so godly a man ? mr. nicholls . upon occasion of this cause i was several times at sir miles cook 's , and at mr. cook 's lodgings there , and we were to go about business , and after he was drest , he has made me stay while he went into his closet and said his prayers . and he told me further , that he never went out of his father's doors without saying his prayers ; and i was forc'd to stay at the door while he perform'd his devotions , as he told me , and i believe he did . mr. serj. darnall . now , my lord , we will call some other witnesses to prove his good affection to his country , how he continually desired success to the fleet , and to the army . sir b. shower . so that really he had an aversion to it . swear mr. hamond . ( which was done . ) mr. serj. darnall . pray , sir , will you give an account what you know of the prisoner , concerning his judgment , and concerning his morals ? hamond . i have been for some time acquainted with mr. cook the prisoner at the bar , and to the best of my observation , i always took him to be a conscientious man , and i have heard him declare great detestation of a french force ; and three or four days before he was taken into custody , i ask'd him what he heard of intelligence ? he said he heard what was in the publick prints , and heard no more , and knew no more ; and he had a great abhorrence of the conspiracy , and thought it a very monstrous thing ; i never heard him speak a disrespectful word of the king's person or government in my life : and i say again , i have heard him several times declare in common conversation , that he had an aversion to a french power , and he had a dread of it . mr. serj. darnall . what have you heard him say about our fleet , or army ? hamond . my lord , i have heard him very much wish prosperity and success to our fleet. mr. j. rokeby . what fleet , pray sir ? hamond . to our fleet , king william's fleet against the french ; things to this purpose he has frequently said . mr. serj. darnall . then swear mrs. hunt. ( which was done ) but she was not examined . sir b. shower . my lord , we leave it here ; but i must beg the favour , that if they give any new evidence , and there be occasion , we may have liberty to answer it . and i have an observation or two to make when the evidence is over . mr. att. gen. my lord , if they have done with their evidence , i beg leave to observe that there is something arises upon that evidence , that will give us occasion to call a witness or two more . my lord , the first witness which they call was edwards , and he is in custody upon suspicion of high treason in newgate , and he gives an account of some discourse that he had with mr. goodman ; and for that it will be necessary for us to call mr. porter again , and mr. delarue , to shew that this edwards the witness , as he is committed for suspicion of high treason , so he was in the conspiracy for the assassination ; he was one in the list that was brought back by cranburne from mr. chernock to captain porter , as one of chernock's men , and he is in custody for it . then as to the other matter , they have called three witnesses to prove that mr. goodman was not in this place at this time . the councel indeed opened it that he was not at the tavern 'till after my lord of aylesbury and my lord montgomery were gone away , but their evidence goes further , that he was not there at all ; and the master of the house says , he was not there to his knowledge at any time . so that if their evidence prove any thing , they prove that he was not there at all , they do not remember that they saw him there ; so that the question will be , whether mr. goodman was there at that time , and it will be necessary to call mr. goodman again , and mr. porter , to confront these witnesses , who will tell you when he came in ; and particularly as to my lord of aylesbury , that he went with him to the stairs-head , and my lord would not let him go further , but he went back again when my lord of aylesbury went down stairs . we will begin with the witnesses , as to this edwards . swear mr. delarue . ( which was done . ) mr. conyers . mr. delarue , pray do you know mr. edwards that was here ? mr. delarue . he goes by several names , i know him by the name of douglas ; and last monday i came into the press-yard , and saluted him by the name of douglas , and he said he had taken his own name again , by which he was known at st. germains , and that was edwards or richards , as i remember , or some such name . mr. conyers . when was he at st. germains ? mr. delarue . about three or four years ago . mr. conyers . pray look upon him , see if you know him . mr. delarue . i know him very well , there he stands , that is the person in the black wig ; he was reputed at st. germains to be my late lord dundee's chaplain . mr. att. gen. what name did he go by at st. germains . mr. delarue . i can't very well tell ; but he said he had taken his own name again ; and i think he said it was edwards , or richards . mr. conyers . did he go formerly by the name of douglas ? mr. delarue . yes , here in england ; mr. porter knew him to go by that name . mr. att. gen. what else do you know of him ? mr. delarue . the list that mr. cranburn carried from mr. porter to mr. chernock , and which he brought back again from mr. chernock to mr. porter , had in it among the other names the name of douglas , which i understood to be that gentleman . mr. att. gen. did he go by that name at that time ? mr. delarue . yes he did . l. c. j. treby . pray repeat that again , sir , that we may understand it , and see whether it be evidence . mr. delarue . why , sir , the list that mr. cranburn brought from mr. chernock to mr. porter , at the foot of the list which mr. porter had sent to him , there were other names written , as i believe , in mr. chernock's hand ; and among those names there was the name of douglas , which i understood to be this mr. edwards , as he calls himself . and moreover , when mr. porter went out of town , going to doctor 's commons , i called at mr. chernock's and he had a great deal of company with him , or troopers , and among the rest this edwards or douglas was there sitting by him . here is a gentleman that i see upon the bench , i think he is a scotch-man , that knew him at st. germains as well as i. i think his name is mack donnel . mr. j. rokeby . what country-man did you take this edwards to be ? mr. delarue . a scotch-man , and chaplain to my lord dundee that was killed in scotland . mr. serj. darnall . did you see this gentleman in france , sir ? mackdonnel . i never was in france in my life . mr. att. gen. you can't ask him the question ; you know it tends to make him either accuse or excuse himself of a crime . pray call mr. porter again . but in the mean time , till he comes , we 'll examine mr. goodman , because he is here . mr. goodman , you were by , and heard what these drawers said concerning your being at the old king's-head in leadenhall-street that day . pray give an account when you came in , whether you saw my lord of aylesbury , and what passed between you at my lord of aylesbury's going away ? mr. goodman . mr. porter brought me up ; and when i came in they were all sitting ; and after salutation i sat down : and when they had consulted some time , they came to a resolution , as i have told you already . the fellows are so far in the right of it , that my lord of aylesbury and my lord montgomery went away first ; for i took my leave of them at the head of the stairs . says my lord of aylesbury to me , pray avoid ceremony , we will go away privately as we came , in a hackney coach. and as to the master of the house , who says , he does not know me , i have dined several times there , four or five times with sir john friend ; and one particular day above all the rest , i remember i was not well , and i went down stairs to the bar , and said , i pray can you get me a little brandy . he said , yes , he would help me to some of the best in england . and he brought me up some which i like very well : and thinking he had a quantity of it , i askt him what i shou'd give him a gallon for a parcel . but he said , he had but a little ; and i am sure he has seen me there five or six times . mr. att. gen. then set up that master of the house cock again . ( which was done ) come , sir , you hear what mr. goodman has sworn , and mind it , you are upon your oath . you said just now , that you never saw mr. goodman before . cock. no upon my word , sir , i don't know that ever i saw him before . mr. att. gen. do you remember nothing of his being with sir john friend at your house ? cock. no , upon my word , sir. mr. att. gen. nay , you are upon your oath . nor do you know nothing of your giving of him brandy ? cock. no , upon my oath , i do not remember any such thing . mr. att. gen. that is a very safe way of swearing , i profess . mr. conyers . he remembers the particular time when he was sick , and you offer'd to sell him some brandy . mr. att. gen. no , he askt him what he should give him for it a gallon . but , mr. cock , did you ever see goodman in your house since my lord of aylesbury and they were there ? cock. no , upon my word , sir , i did not ; and i never had but two gallons of brandy in my life at a time ; and i never had any cask , or any thing of that nature , to sell any out of . mr. att. gen. who used to be with sir john friend at your house ? cock. there used to be mr. richardson , and justice cash , and col. cash . mr. goodman . mr. richardson was there that day : i could almost have remembred the particular day , but i cannot be positive ; only we were in the same room where the consultation was , at the further part of the room . mr. j. rokeby . you , friend , the master of the house , you hear what mr. goodman says : he says he was with sir john friend at your house , and being not well , he askt for some brandy , and you told him , you 'd give him some of the best in england . and he propounded to you then to sell him some of it ; but it seems there was no bargain made . do you remember any such thing of one that was with sir john friend , that spoke of buying of brandy when he was sick ? cock. no , upon my word i do not . mr. att. gen. then set up mr. porter ( who stood up . ) pray mr. porter , look upon that man in the black perriwig ; what name did he use to go by ? mr. porter . he used to go by the name of edwards . mr. att. gen. had he any other name ? mr. porter . yes , douglas . mr. att. gen. he has so many names , that we don't know which his is true name . mr. porter , pray what else do you know of him touching his being concerned in the conspiracy ? mr. porter . i know not any thing of my own knowledge ; but his name was put down in the list that mr. chernock sent me of his men , and mr. delarue read his name there . mr. sol. gen. mr. porter , you were a witness upon the trials of sir john friend and sir william parkyns ; did you give evidence that mr. goodman was in the room at the same time when the consultation was ? mr. porter . yes , sir. mr. att. gen. well , you hear that these people have sworn , that mr. goodman did not come till my lord of aylesbury went away ; nay indeed , that he was not there at all . mr. porter . my lord , upon my oath he was there before my lord aylesbury went away , and mr. goodman bowed , and took leave of my lord as he went out of doors . mr. att. gen. what time did my lord of aylesbury go away ? mr. porter . it was about an hour and a half , or two hours after dinner , and he was in the room when my lord went away , for he took his leave of him at the door . mr. cowper . do you remember the manner of mr. goodman's coming in ? mr. porter . mr. goodman sent up his name to me , and i told the company , and promis'd for him , that he was a very honest man , and much in king james's interest ; and then with their consent i went down and brought him up . mr. j. powell . how long time do you think there was between mr. goodman's coming in , and my lord of aylesbury's going away ? mr. porter . i cannot tell that , i do not remember exactly how long it was . mr. j. powell . was it a quarter of an hour , or half an hour ? mr. porter . a great deal longer , for we had discoursed of the whole business after mr. goodman came into the room . mr. conyers . how long were they there after mr. goodman came in ? mr. porter . it was very near two hours after he came in , before they went away ; they did not go away 'till six a clock , and he came in at four , as near as i can remember . mr. att. gen. then , my lord , we have done . sir b. shower . then i beg the favour of a word or two , my lord. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am of counsel in this case for the prisoner at the bar , and i must beg your lordship's patience , and your favour , gentlemen , to make a few observations upon the evidence that has been given ; for we humbly insist upon it in point of law , that here is not sufficient evidence before you to convict the prisoner . you are , gentlemen , to have respect and regard to your consciences and the oaths which you have now taken to give a verdict , and make true deliverance between the king , and the prisoner ; you are not to go according to your own private opinions , nor according to publick fame , nor according to common report , nor according to the verdicts in other cases , nor according to the confessions or dying speeches of criminals who have been executed , whether made by themselves , or by others for them ; but you are to go by the testimony of credible witnesses , and if you have not the evidence of two credible witnesses before you , my lords the judges will inform you how the law stands . that by the statute of edward the sixth , and the new statute for trials of treasons , there must be two witnesses to prove the prisoner guilty of the overt act of the treason that is laid in the indictment ; and whether there have been two credible witnesses produced before you , is the question that you are to consider upon your oath and conscience ; that is , whether you are satisfied here be two such as the law requires . the question is not meerly whether mr. cook be guilty , but whether in your consciences he be legally prov'd guilty ; whether there be evidence to satisfie your consciences , according to the laws of the land , that he is guilty ; and we insist there is not ; and therefore i beg leave to recapitulate what was been sworn against him , that we may see how far it reaches , and wherein it is defective . gentlemen , mr. porter he swears that about the beginning or middle of may , he cannot tell which , there was this meeting at the old king's-head tavern in leaden-hall-street ; in which , i wou'd observe to you , that he confines himself to a certain month ; the reason is very plain , and therefore i ask'd him whether it was not in april ; for if he had said it had been then , there had been no danger to the prisoner , because of the act of indempnity , therefore he was careful to fix it in may ; and he wou'd not lay it in june , for the tenth of june is a famous day ; and then , or soon after , newgate had him ; he was confined there for a riot on that day , and so they have restrained it to a month , and the only month that he is capable of swearing to , as to any act done the last year 'till they came in january to the assassination plot , which the prisoner is not accused to have had any concern in ; but it shou'd seem he cannot tell what day of the week , or of the month , but about the beginning or the middle of may eight persons dined at this place , and then after dinner mr. goodman came in , and they discours'd about this matter . first , gentlemen , we insist upon it , that it is very improbable that engglish protestants of pious conversation and good morals , shou'd agree , as he says , to send such a message to the late king , to invite over a french popish force ; we may easily see the horrid and mischievous consequences that wou'd have followed such a practice , such as must affect every english-man with a concern , so that it is improbable a man of vertue and piety cou'd engage in such an enterprize ; and if it it be improbable , you will never believe it , unless the conviction or proof be irresistable : and if you have any other reasons to distrust this man's truth , then we hope you will go upon the side of probability ; and not let popular prejudice , common fame , or any thing else but legal and undeniable evidence have the ascendant over you . if you are not satisfied that mr. cook did assent ( as from the character of the man it is not probable he shou'd ) to send chernock into france , to perswade king lewis and king james to send ten thousand men to invade our country , then he is not guilty . in the next place , gentlemen , he is not guilty we say in the eye of the law , if they have not two witnesses ; and for that we say you have but one , or but one that is to be believed ; and if you have but one that is to be believed , that in law is but one , and consequently my client is not guilty ; so the king's councel agree , that if there be but one witness , he cannot be convicted , the law is plain in the case . now to make it out that here is but one witness at most , we have offered you several objections , and made them out by evidence , against the testimony of mr. goodman ; that he is not a person fit to be believed ; and if he be out of the case , then does mr. porter's stand alone , and all will amount but to one witness , suppose it shou'd be granted that his testimony were true . first , we have read a record of conviction against him , of a crime , one of the greatest next unto treason , that is known in our or any other law. that he hired a man to poison two dukes , branches of a noble family , to which he had such great obligations , as all mankind do know , and he himself cannot but acknowledge ; and if there were not that aggravation in it , of his obligations to that family , yet to lie in wait to murder and poyson , is such an offence as any age can seldom show the like . and the objection is not so very easily answer'd as they would have it ; nor can it be so soon passed over as they think , by saying he is a witness of a confederacy with which the prisoner is accus'd , a crime greater than the thing objected . it is true , none can bear testimony in such a business , but he that is a party : but , we say , if these persons , who come and set up themselves for witnesses , were not probi homines , and did not appear to be persons of indifferent credit between man and man , and did not stand impartial in the eye of the world in other respects before , then they are not to be believ'd , as to what they charge themselves and others to be guilty of . now , if mr. goodman stand convicted of such an offence as this that is alledg'd against him , tho' he is pardon'd by the act of parliament , or satisfaction acknowledg'd upon the record , tho' it be even the very next term , yet that does not purge him from the infamy and disgrace , or from the imputation of being concern'd in so villanous a design . it is impossible that he should be a good witness that wou'd be engag'd in such a matter ; especially when we have those various witnesses , and such a concurring testimony , that what he has sworn is absolutely false . gentlemen , if there were nothing but his own testimony in the case , there could be no question at all in it : and as to captain porter's testimony about his being there , we have produc'd three witnesses , who , if they be of credit , then mr. goodman is not to be believ'd , but is falsified throughout ; for , it is not the question , whether mr. cook went away before the consultation and the resolution ; for , if my lord of ailesbury , or my lord montgomery went away , mr. goodman is falsify'd in that , and consequently you ought not to believe him in the rest ; for he actually swears , that my lord of ailesbury , my lord mountgomery , and those other gentlemen , were all present , and at the consult , and did consent and agree to the resolution , by using these words ; yes , you may ; yes , you may . now , we say , there are three witnesses that swear , that my lord of ailesbury was gone before he came there . i do not care whether he came there , or not ; that is not material : if there were no body there when my lord of ailesbury was there but those that were at dinner , for then mr. goodman was not there at any such consultation , as they would insinuate was at that time , in that place , and that company . my lord , we have prov'd to you mr. cook 's abherrence and declaration , which , we think , ought to go a great way in satisfaction of his innocence , at least to induce you to the favourable side ; for , gentlemen , you are not brought hither to convict a man only , but to try and examine him ; and it is your duty to acquit , as well as convict , according as the evidence stands : it is your duty to go according to your consciences , and to declare whether he be guilty , or not guilty , upon the evidence you have before you : you are to examine the truth of the fact in all its circumstances , and upon your own consciences to declare , whether he is guilty or not guilty ; now we propose it to you , and submit it to your consciences , that here are three witnesses , that speak upon their oaths , against whom there is no objection , that ever they were guilty of lying in wait to poyson any body , nor in any plot for an assassination , nor any conspiracy for inviting an invasion from france , nor any other objection against them , but they stand upright in the face of the world , and they three swear , that he was not there at that time . the answer that we expect , is , that he might be there , and they not see him : and because it was possible he might be there , and they not see him , therefore it is no evidence : but , my lord , because it may be so , is no evidence that it is so ; that 's no objection , for you will take it as the nature of the thing will afford , and the matter itself allow . now there can be no better evidence than this ; that they went in and out continually ; the drawers , and the master of the house five or six times himself , were in the room , and they say , there was no such person there . why then it is very improbable , if not impossible , that any such man should be there . the one swears , he came down from my lord of ailesbury just before he went away ; and another says , he follow'd him out of the room ; and the master says , that he met my lord of ailesbury at the stairs-head . all which falsifies mr. goodman in that particular , that he was with my lord of ailesbury at the stairs-head , when he went away . these are incompatible ; and if we falsifie him in any one thing , he is not to be believ'd in any other . then , gentlemen , we offer to your consideration an answer to another objection : they say , these witnesses seem to swear , that he was not there at all . we are not concern'd whether he was there afterwards , or not : if you are satisfied , that he was not there , as our witnesses swear , while my lord of ailesbury was there , that 's enough . but then they make an objection , how comes the master of the house to remember my lord of ailesbury's going away , more than any body else ? gentlemen , you know the nature of the thing shows , that not only that it was more probable the master of the house should make his observations near the time of dinner , rather than afterwards at night , when there is more hurry : but it is more probable he should take notice of it from the quality of the person , from the discourse he had with him about the whitewine , which was a good medium to refresh a vintner's memory , it being a matter in his own trade , and that might make him call it to mind . therefore , gentlemen , we think these three witnesses stand free and clear in their credit ; and being so , are inconsistent with mr. goodman's testimony ; and , we hope , in favour of life , the credit inclines on their side , especially when the question is , whether a man shall be executed for treason who never fled for it , who was never charg'd with any treason or treasonable practises before ; nay , not so much as with any particular crime . or immorality : and , whether three witnesses shall be believ'd , against whom there is no objection , rather than two , against one of which there are such objections . my lord , we are not now debating or attacking the evidence of the plot , or arraigning the former judgments against the conspirators that have suffer'd ; but , gentlemen , we are putting you now upon a serious enquiry , ( as god and your own consciences shall incline you ) whether our clyent be guilty or not guilty upon this evidence ; that is , whether mr. goodman swears true , or not . we hope that we have given you sufficient satisfaction , that upon mr. goodman's part the evidence is insufficient ; and we hope you will accordingly find our clyent not guilty . mr. att. gen. if mr. cook have any thing to say himself , i desire he may say it now , before we begin . sir b. shower . no , pray go on , sir. l. c. j. treby . mr. cook , wou'd you say any thing yourself , before the king's councel sum up ? cook. the little i have to say , my lord , i 'll speak now , or by and by , which you please . l. c. j. treby . you must do it now , because after they have summ'd up , there is nothing more to be said by you . cook. my lord , i thank god , i have liv'd a life , i hope , as good as any man , and have often receiv'd the blessed sacrament ; i have done it constantly , and shall do it speedily , by the grace of god , as soon as i can have a minister come to administer it to me . i did offer it to my own father , when he came to me , and told me , if would confess this thing i should not come to tryal : i told my father , i would not for ten thousand worlds take away the blood of an innocent man to save mine . i thank god , i am in a very good way to dye ; i have , for at least this last year , frequently received the blessed sacrament ; and how i have liv'd , every body in the court that knows me can tell my life and conversation has been as regular as any man's , and i am as ready to dye to morrow , if occasion was for it ( i thank god ) as any one ; i will receive the blessed sacrament upon it ; and it is not for life that i would do any thing that is wrong or unjust : i do love my nation , and i love the quiet of the nation ; i never was for disturbing the government that now is ; and i ever was against foreign forces or an invasion , for i never thought of one , or heard of it , but with abhorrence and detestation : and i do assure faithfully , i shou'd be sorry to disparage mr. porter's evidence , because i would have every body that was concern'd in that horrid and barbarous crime to suffer ; in god's name , let them all suffer . i thank god , i never knew any thing of it , nor of a french invasion : and i would say more of it , but that i would not hurt mr. porter's evidence , whose discovery of that bloody business has done so much service . as for mr. goodman , as i hope to receive the blessed sacrament , and may i perish when i do it , if i speak an untruth ; i would not for any thing , no , not for the good of my country , have innocent blood spilt ; i would lay down my life to serve my country , but i would not have my blood be lightly lost ; and how little a man soever i am , my blood will lye as heavy upon the nation as any the weightiest man's can do . i do not doubt your lordship's justice , nor the jury's , but i pray , my lord , observe ; tho' it is usual not to own things at the bar , yet i do not make this denial as of course , but out of truth ; and i assure you , in the presence of the whole court , if i should suffer for this , i must at my last moments either confess or deny something : and , i say , i do assure , in the presence of the whole court , and i will take the blessed sacrament upon it , that i must , at my death , deny this whole matter , and that ever i did see mr. goodman at all there ; i do not think i saw him ; i do not remember i saw mr. goodman at all , except once in germain-street , when the coach broke , and that must be but in passing by neither , and he would have hurt or kill'd the coachman , and we kept him from it ; and i walk'd with him half the length of germain-street , before i knew who mr. goodman was . if ever a one of those gentlemen ▪ that are men of credit and honour , can say i was any ways so inclined , or that they ever saw me , or knew me , that i ever bought a pistol or a blunderbuss , or the like , may god sink and strike me dead ; and the blessed sacrament , which i intend to receive , be my curse and damnation , if i knew of king james's coming , till after the whole town rung of it : i had no hand in the invasion ; and , besides my abhorrence of introducing foreign force , i desire your lordship and the jury to consider the circumstances of my case , that i had but a very small allowance from my father , and therefore it is not probable i should take upon me to joyn with my lord of ailesbury , and my lord montgomery , and those other gentlemen , to send chernock into france , to invite over a foreign force : and i call god to witness i had no hand in it . i beg your lordships pardon for all this trouble ; i would not hurt mr. porter's evidence , for the reasons that i have told you ; but this is for my life , and i don 't so much value that as i do truth and sincerity ; and i shall receive the blessed sacrament , if i dye , that i never did do so . indeed , i never did take the oaths , nor did i ever refuse them , because they were never offer'd me ; but i wou'd take the oaths now if they were offer'd me . my lord , i beg your pardon for this trouble . l. c. j. treby . have you done , sir ? have you said all you would say ? cook. yes , my lord. l. c. j. treby . then , you gentlemen of the king's councel , will you conclude ? mr. sol. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am of councel in this case for the king , and i could have been very glad that this gentleman's defence that he has made had been stronger than in truth it has been : and i should have been very glad too that his councel had been able to have made it better for him ; but that he and they may be satisfied as much is done as the case will bear ; they have had all the liberty in the world to make his defence they could desire , nay , more than in strictness could be allow'd them . gentlemen , our evidence is very positive against the prisoner at the bar , and for the highest crime that the king's subjects can be guilty of , by the confession of the gentleman himself , and of his councel . we have , i say , two positive witnesses against him ; they say , they are not legal ones : i must own , if we have not two witnesses , we have never an one ; for whatsoever falsifies mr. goodman's testimony , falsifies whatsoever mr. porter has sworn . now , the evidence that mr. porter has given against him , is this : he says , there was to be a meeting at the kings-head tavern in leaden-hall-street , and there they consulted of the methods to bring back k. james hither ; and it was thought the best way to send to king james to invite the french king to send horse , dragoous , and foot , to land here in this kingdom , where they would meet him with horse . they pitch'd upon a very proper messenger , mr. chernock , a person that has been attainted , and has suffer'd for high treason ; he was to be sent into france upon this errand ; mr. cook , the prisoner at the bar , was one of the persons that were there at that time , and he was consenting to this message ; and mr. porter gives you a particular token relating to the prisoner , for he remembers the prisoner did kneel upon the chair , and lean'd his elbows upon the table when he consented . mr. porter goes further , and tells you , that mr. chernock would have another meeting , to know and see whether all the company were of the same mind they had been ; and that afterwards they met at mrs. mountjoy's house , and there the prisoner at the bar was present , and consenting to the same thing : thereupon mr. chernock went into france , and came back again , and said , the french king could not spare so much force . mr. goodman gives the same evidence that mr. porter had given : it 's true , he was not at mrs. mountjoy's tavern , but he tells you withal , he spoke with mr. chernock when he came back from france , and chernock return'd him the same answer that he did to mr. porter , that the french king could not spare so many forces . this is the evidence in short , gentlemen , that is given against the prisoner ; and if this evidence be true , then is he guilty of the crime for which he is indicted . against these witnesses they have produced , first , a record of conviction against mr. goodman , and that was for hiring one amadea to poyson the duke of grafton , and the duke of northumberland : they have produc'd the record , whereby it appears , he was convicted and fined l. and was to find security for the good behaviour during life ; and he was no lye in prison till the fine paid , and security given : but it happens , in that very record it appears there was satisfaction acknowledg'd upon that even the very next term ; and that gives a great deal of suspicion to believe , that the evidence that was given was not much credited ; for , tho' the councel for the prisoner has said , that it was the payment of the l. that was the satisfaction ; no , it is not so , it is a satisfaction of the whole judgment , for finding security as well as the fine . they say he was not able to pay the fine ; and there is nothing appears of the other parts of the judgment being complied with , but the whole judgment is set aside . but all this does not make a man no legal witness ; if they thought this conviction tended to set aside his evidence , they would have produc'd it at another part of the tryal , than where they did : that is , when mr. goodman was first call'd to be sworn as a witness , then they should have produc'd this record , and said he had been no witness : but they knew well enough that that was no exception against the legality of his evidence , but tends only to his credit , and nothing else . now , tho' it be a black crime to endeavour to poyson another , yet that does not totally destroy any man's credit ; if it did , then the other gentleman , mr. porter , has confess'd himself guilty of a greater crime than that for which mr. goodman is convicted by this record ; for , he owns himself one that was in that design of assassinating the king. and mr. goodman owns himself too guilty of a greater crime that what 's objected to him , which is that of high treason ; and , i hope , if he may be believ'd , when he owns himself guilty of high treason , which is a greater crime than poysoning a private subject ; or guilty of such a design as the assassination of the king , which mr. porter has charg'd himself with , and notwithstanding which they have not offer'd that as an exception against mr. porter's evidence , ( for they very well know , his evidence has been receiv'd and credited : ) mr. goodman may be credited , tho' guilty of the crime objected to him : and the constant practise in all tryals of this kind hath been , that it does not take away the witnesses evidence , however it affects his credit , which in this case is supported by the concurrent testimony of mr. porter . and so then , i say , we have two legal witnesses , ( notwithstanding all the exceptions ) to prove mr. cook guilty of the crime for which he is indicted . then they go on further , and produce other witnesses : first , they produce one edwards , a person that is committed for high treason himself , and under suspicion of his being to be one of those that was to have a hand in the assassination ; but his evidence goes no further , than that mr. goodman told him he was to be a witness against mr. cook , and either he the witness , or mr. cook must suffer ; and , that it was a foolish thing to be hang'd . my lord , there is nothing at all in this matter that takes away mr. goodman's evidence : it is very plain mr. goodman had forfeited his life , and must do something to save it , and i think he could not do a better service to entitle himself to the king's mercy , than to discover those that were equally guilty with himself . 't was his duty to have done it , if he had not been in danger ; and if he hath done no more than what was his duty , i hope that is no objection against his testimony . they have produced likewise a drawer of the kings-head tavern , one crawford , and he says , he attended in this room while this company was there . but then he goes a little further than the councel or the prisoner would have had him ; for they called him to prove , that mr. goodman was not there when my lord of ailesbury , my lord montgomery , and mr. cook were there . but when the drawer comes , he knows nothing of mr. goodman's being there at all : he says , mr. cook was there , but not mr. goodman ; and yet he does acknowledge , that mr. goodman might be there , and he not see him come up . he acknowledges he attended upon other company as well as this ; so that it is plain in the nature of the thing , and his own confession , that goodman might be there . this cannot take off the positive evidence of mr. goodman and mr. porter , who both swear , that goodman was there . but then they produce another drawer , and that is one huntley ; and he gives the same account , only indeed he says , he was there all the while they were at dinner : but that is nothing , because it is acknowledg'd both by mr. porter and mr. goodman , that he was not there at dinner-time , but he might be there after dinner , and yet huntly could not see him at dinner : he tells you likewise , he pass'd up and down in the room afterwards , and did not see mr. goodman there ; but yet he might be there , and he not see him . then they produce the master of the house , and he gives much the same evidence in effect which his servants do , that he did not see mr. goodman there all the while ; but he says something that is a little incredible ; he can be positive that mr. goodman was not there while my lord of ailesbury was there , but he cannot be positive that he was not there afterwards . he tells you , he met my lord of ailesbury and my lord montgomery upon the middle of the stairs coming down , and he is sure mr. goodman was not in the room at that time . now , is that possible that he could be sure of that , when he owns , ( and cannot but own ) that mr. goodman might go into the room and he not see him ? so that he has made a strain in his evidence that it is very little to be credited , which was not designed so much for the advantage of mr. cook as for the advantage of somebody else : and , in itself , it is almost an impossible thing that it should be true , by what he offers as the reason of his evidence . but then , gentlemen , you are to consider , that all these three witnesses , if they swear true , do falsifie not only mr. goodman , who swears , that he was there ; but they likewise falsifie the evidence of mr. porter , and for that reason i ask'd mr. porter the question , whether he did not give the same evidence against sir john friend ? and if what he swears now be not true , neither was it true when sir john friend was try'd , for he was the only witness at that time against sir john friend , for this meeting ; and therefore these mens testimony tends to overthrow both witnesses as well as one : and i must tell you , that if mr. goodman be not a legal witness , because he has sworn a thing that is not true , then mr. porter is not a good witness , who has sworn the same thing , viz. that mr. goodman was there ; and then you ought to acquit the prisoner , because there is no witness against him at law ; for , there is the same evidence against mr. porter that there is against mr. goodman as to this matter . then , gentlemen , as for the character of mr. cook , they say he is a good english protestant , i hope he is so ▪ but it is plain , that religion does not vary the case : 't is within the reach of every man's memory that is here , that the same things have fallen upon other gentlemen that have had the same character , particularly sir john friend and sir william parkyns , who both ▪ said the same things , in the same place , that they were true protestants of the church of england . but that is no manner of evidence that will be of weight against positive oaths . now , gentlemen , it is fit likewise you should reflect upon another thing : what is it that should engage mr. porter and mr. goodman , or invite either of those two gentlemen to give a false evidence against the prisoner at the bar ? it does not appear that there was any injury done by him to them , to provoke them , to it ; so that it could be for nothing but for the sake of truth . it has been further said on the behalf of mr. cook , that he abhorred the french , and any invasion upon his country , and the like : it is a matter that is easily said ; and it has been said by others that have been in the same place where he now stands ; that they hated all plots , and they might punish them if ever they caught them . but these are only sayings , and nothing else . if there can be any constructions made of the evidence given by these two witnesses , that does not directly prove the indictment , then the prisoner ought to be acquitted : but if there can be no other construction made , but only , that there was a plain design to send chernock into france , to king james , to perswade him to prevail with the french king , to come and invade us with a foreign force : and if our witnesses are legal witnesses , ( as , i doubt not , my lords the judges will tell you they are ; if there be no exception to the credit of goodmen , but only that he was in such a design of poysoning the two dukes , which is really no objection of discredit to his testimony ; ) then , with submission , i think there is no room left for you , gentlemen of the jury , to doubt , but that the prisoner is as guilty of this crime laid to his charge , as any others that have been try'd and condemn'd for the same . and so , gentlemen , i leave it to you . l. c. j. treby . mr. conyers , and mr. cowper , will you say any thing to this matter . mr. conyers and mr. cowper . no , my lord , we submit it entirely to your lordships direction ; we have done on all sides , we think . l. c. j. treby . gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner at the bar , mr. cook , stands indicted here for high treason ; there are laid in the indictment two sorts of treason ; the one is , compassing and imagining the death of the king ; the other is , adhering to the king's enemies . the evidence to prove these treasons seems to be joynt ; for , as to that of compassing and imagining the king's death , as well as to the other , the overt acts are meeting and consulting about the treason , and then agreeing and resolving to invite and procure an invasion from france , and to meet that invasion with an insurrection here . and the evidence is apply'd entirely to prove these acts. gentlemen , that these are proper overt acts of compassing the king's death , i need not inform you , the law is very well known ; and the prisoner's own councel do acknowledge , that these are sufficient overt acts of compassing and imagining the king's death : so that all which they defend him by is , the improbability of the testimony given against him . now , gentlemen , you are to consider and weigh well the evidence that has been given . by law , it is true , as they observe , there must be two witnesses . here is no defect of number ; that 's acknowledg'd too , here are two witnesses ; but the question is , whether here be two witnesses that deserve credit , and upon whose testimony you can find that the prisoner is guilty . the witnesses , gentlemen , are mr. porter and mr. goodman . first , for the matter of their testimony , it is positive from them both ; that you 'll do well to observe . mr. porter tells , you , that 〈◊〉 may last , ( which is now just a twelve-month ) there was a meeting of eight persons , that is , my lord of ailesbury , my lord montgomery , sir john fenwick , sir william parkyns , sir john friend , mr. chernock , mr. cook the prisoner at the bar , and the witness himself mr. porter ; and this was at the kings-head tavern in leaden-hall-street , and there these eight dined , and this was in order to consult about an invasion , together with an insurrection intended to be made for the restoring of the late king. after dinner comes in mr. goodman , he says , and then they pursued this consultation , and came to a resolution , to send mr. chernock into france , and the message was agreed upon which he should carry ; and he was to go to the late king , and sollicite him to obtain soldiers from the french king , whereof should be foot , horse , and dragoons . these were to make up the men to invade this kingdom . and they resolved also , when this force should land , they should meet and assist this invasion with a joynt force , that should consist of horse . and to acquaint and assure him of this was the message . but , he says , that mr. chernock was very cautious in it , and would not presently go upon this errand , but he would have further assurance that they were in earnest , and would make good what they did send him to propose , therefore he would have a second meeting ; & a second meeting was had , & that was at mrs. mountjoy's tavern , and there they did renew the same resolution , and there were present my lord of ailesbury , sir william parkyns , sir john fenwick , sir john friend , mr. chernock , the prisoner at the bar , and himself ; he does not know or remember whether my lord montgomery , or mr. goodman was there . he says , mr. chernock did accordingly go into france , and he did return and bring back king james's thanks to them , but their desire could not be comply'd with ; and he had his share of the complements . now comes mr. goodman , & he says , that about the same time , viz. mid-may , mr. porter acquainted him , there would be a meeting of some of k. james ●s friends , at this tavern in leaden-hall street . he says , that he did tell mr. porter , he doubted he should not be there at dinner , but he would come as soon as he could after dinner ; and according to appointment , he did come after dinner , and there was this consultation and resolution that mr. porter speaks of , and says , that mr. chernock afterwards told him , he had been in france with the late king , and brought back the same answer that mr. porter speaks of ; and he had the honour of thanks from the late king too . gentlemen , i must observe one thing to you , which does go very much towards the confirming what these witnesses say , and that is the agreement in their testimonies , tho they were examin'd apart at the desire of the prisoner : you will find they agree in these several circumstances , in the time , that it was this time twelve-months ; in the place , that it was at this tavern ; in the number of persons that were there , which was eight before mr. goodman came in ; in the number of horse , foot , and dragoons that were to be brought from france , and in those horse that were to meet them here ; and besides , in those words of discourse upon the consultation and the resolution . and there is one circumstance more in which they do agree , and which is very particular ; that when they came to deliver their consent to this message that mr. chernock was to carry , the rest sate , and mr. cook the prisoner did kneel upon the chair , and lean'd upon the table . and this both of them do agree in . and after all the many questions ask'd in their separate examination , i do not find they disagree in any part of their evidence . so that , gentlemen , there can remain no question now , but whether these two witnesses are men of credit ; or , whether there has been opposed to them any such evidence as will make you believe , that ( if not both ) at least one of them has forsworn himself . they do produce nothing against mr. porter , whatsoever may have been produc'd at former tryals against his credit : perhaps what has been before , has satisfied the objectors , there is nothing appears against his credit ; but he is not only a competent but a very clear , good , credible , and undoubted witness . but against mr. goodman they offer several things which they say amount to a violent presumption , that he is not to be look'd upon as a credible witness : and first , they produce a record of a conviction upon an information against him , for attempting to poison two noble dukes : this he was convicted of , and fin'd l. and ordered to find sureties for his good behaviour during his life . but , to this it is answered , that it appears in the same record , that satisfaction was acknowledged of the l. and all the rest of the judgment the very next term , and he was forthwith discharged , and that without paying the mony , which ( 't was observ'd ) the prisoner's counsel said mr. goodman was not able to pay at that time , no more than he could l. and thereupon the king's counsel say , that the government was convinc'd that he was wrong'd by a causeless prosecution , and the evidence against him was found not to be credible . and besides , mr. goodman stands pardoned by several acts of pardons , as well as other subjects . then they produce one edwards , who is a prisoner here , and committed for suspicion of high treason , and for treasonable practices : he is , no doubt of it , a witness for all that : for that is but an accusation upon him , and does not take away his credit . he tells you of a discourse that he had with mr. goodman , and that goodman ask'd him when the prisoner was to be try'd ; and he told him he wou'd be try'd such a day ; and when it was ask'd what it was for , it was answer'd , not for the assassination , but for sending mr. chernock into france ? he ask'd then who were the witnesses against him ? mr. goodman said , mr. porter and himself . and further said , that he understood that mr. cook had sworn against him ( though he would give an account of no body else ) and had no pardon , and either he must hang , or himself . and then he talk'd lightly of the business of hanging , and said it was a foolish thing to be hang'd , for all that people wou'd say , was , that such an one hang'd handsomly , or dyed bravely . this indeed is a sort of discourse as if mr. goodman did apprehend himself in danger from mr. cook 's evidence ; and yet i cannot see that it does at all falsifie the evidence of mr. goodman : he may be a true witness , and yet he might say he was to give evidence against mr. cook , and it was in mr. cook 's power to give evidence against him , and that truly ; and if both were in the guilt , they were in danger of one another . but for a further answer , the king's counsel have produced mr. de-la-rue , who says , that he knew mr. edwards , and that he was a scotch man , and reputed chaplain to the viscount of dundee , that he went formerly by the name of dowglas , and by that name he was set down and described in the list that mr. chernock sent to captain porter ; and to that name he answer'd in the press-yard lately . now it is certain , that mr. chernock's putting of his name in that list , is no evidence of his being guilty in mr. chernock's treason . but his going by two names doth justly lay him under some suspicion . but the evidence that the prisoner seems to rely upon most , is what evidence has been produc'd against mr. goodman in that point of fact , by the master and the two drawers ; the first of the drawer's name was crawford , and he does tell you , that about months ago there was this company at dinner there : my lord of aylesbury , my lord montgomery , sir john friend , sir john fenwick , sir william parkyns , captain porter , mr. chernock , and the prisoner , though he did not then know his name , or the name of one or two more of them . i observe by the way , that his testimony so far does verifie theirs , that there were eight of them there , but he says he did not see mr. goodman there , nor any but those that dined there . and my lord of aylesbury went away , as he thinks , about four a clock . he cannot say that the prisoner was there , or was gone at that time before mr. goodman came in ; for he did not see mr. goodman there at all , he was not in the room all the time , but he was to and fro attending till my lord of aylesbury and my lord montgomery went away in a coach that was called , and when they were gone , the rest of the company staid there a good while ; being urged to tell how long , at last he said it was dark , and that agrees with mr. porter , who says , it was about nine a-clock when they went away . he says he was there once or twice after my lord of aylesbury went away , but he never saw mr. goodman that he remembers at all , till last saturday , in all his life . as to this the king's counsel say , that it is only a negative evidence , and in which a man cannot be absolutely positive , but can only speak according to his observation and memory , which might not be perfect , and mr. goodman might be there in the mean time of his going in and out : that is possible ; and so it must be left to you to consider of it . then there is huntly the other drawer , and he says my lord of aylesbury went away about that time , and that he did not see mr. goodman there at all , nor ever in his life till now ; neither does he remember that any body came to them after dinner , and if any fresh man had then come in , he thinks he should ( going often in to them ) have known him ; and says , that he attended this company only : and he had seen sir john friend and sir william parkyns there before . then mr. cock , the master of the house was produced , and he names all the eight persons that did dine there , and so far he confirms the king's evidence : he thinks that my lord of aylesbury and my lord montgomery went away privately ( as it seems they had come ) in a hackney coach , and that it was about a-clock ; and he says , he did not see mr. goodman there , and he does not know that he ever saw him till now : but when he was cross examined by the king's counsel , he does acknowledge that he might possibly come in after dinner , and before my lord of aylesbury went away , and he not see him , because he was not there all the time ; he says sir john friend used to dine at his house , and came to his house once a week ; and he had seen some of the rest , but they did not frequent his house as sir john friend did : he says , the company din'd about a-clock , and the last of them staid till about or , and that the door was shut as is usual when company is in a room , but no body was forbid to come there . but to establish the credit of the evidence on the king's part , they did produce mr. goodman and mr. porter again : mr. goodman does acknowledge so far to be true , that my lord of aylesbury went away first ; but says , that himself was not wholly a stranger to this house , for he had dined there four or five times with sir john friend , and particularly one time , he being sick , and asking for some brandy , the master of the house said he would help him to some of the best in england , and mr. goodman would have bought some of him . but the master seems not to own that , and says , he does not remember any thing of it . but then comes mr. porter again , and he says positively , that mr. goodman was there , and that he did speak with the company , and complemented my lord of aylesbury when he went away , and went part of the way towards the stairs with him ; and he does well remember it by this token , that when mr. porter was told mr. goodman was below , he mentioned him in the company as a trusty man , that was fit for the conversation ; and then mr. porter went and fetch 't him up , and mr. goodman was there near two hours , and they discours'd all this matter in that time in the presence of the prisoner and the rest ; and he says it was about six a-clock before my lord of aylesbury and my lord montgomery went away , and then there was opportunity enough for this discourse , and consult that they speak of . the prisoner has offered another sort of evidence : first , the confidence of his own innocence , that he was abroad three weeks after this conspiracy was discovered ; and they have produced mr. treganna , mr. peachy , and mr. nichols , who prove that he never absconded , but was abroad and appeared openly ( for three weeks after ) till such time as he was taken . this the king's counsel say is no proof that he is not guilty , and their evidence untrue . they say he might have a confidence , and the rather because he is not charged with the assassination ; for , at that time these witnesses speak of nothing was discovered and publick but the assassination ; for it was before sir john friend's trial ; and then was the great discovery of the secret of the invasion . then he shews further as to his conversation , that he is a man of a very sober life , never was known to swear , that he drinks but little , and is a godly man , and often says his prayers . as to that , the king's counsel on the other side tell you , that has been pretended to by other people too ; and the question is not about religion , but this fact that you are now to try . whether he be so religious or no as he pretends , or whether he be sincere in his devotion , that is not so much the matter now , but the question is , whether he has offended in this kind as he stands accused . they produce a gentleman , one mr. hammond , and he says that he is a very consciencious man , and particularly is a great lover of his country ; and he has often heard him declare a detestation of an invasion by a french force , and wish success to the fleet ; but that which he remembers chiefly , was about the time of the discovery of this plot. the king's counsel answer to this , that a man may use such kind of expressions , perhaps to cover his guilt ; and in the reply to sir barth . showers observations it was taken notice of by mr. solicitor , ( what we all cannot but remember ) that the like evidence was given as to sir john friend , that he did detest an invasion , and was present at the common prayer when king william was pray'd for , and declared against plots ; and that if they catched him in the corn they might put him in the pound . these things a man might say , and it is the lightest evidence that can be given , being discourses out of mens own mouths , who will never proclaim their own guilt ; and therefore it is the weakest defence that can be offered . but gentlemen , you are to consider the other evidence that has been produc'd by the prisoner , given by several witnesses , and who are upon their oaths now as well as the king's witnesses . and his counsel say their witnesses , but particularly the three upon whom they chiefly rely , have no objection made out against them ; and no man's testimony ought to be presumed to be false . and it must be taken notice of , that they can speak only according to their belief , grounded on their observation and memory , that they did not so far as they observed or remember , see mr. goodman there , as 't was most probable they should if he had been . but 't is possible they might overlook or forget ; the rather for that they were not of the company , but in and out , up and down ; and mr. goodman was not there at dinner when their attendance was fixt and constant . it ought to be considered also , that here are several circumstances , some of which seem very pregnant . it is agreed on all hands , that the prisoner dined there with those other seven persons , concerning four of whom we must conclude nothing ; but concerning three of them we in this court may take notice , they are attainted of high treason , and so it is evident that the prisoner was for a long time a companion of three traytors , and had a conversation with them . i do not find that he had any occasion to be there ; nor any of the rest of the company . concerning my lord of aylesbury , indeed it is said he proposed to treat about a hogshead of white wine . but that seems to be casual , and not the end of his coming and dining with this company there . but , be that how it will , that relates to his lordship alone . but , for the others , i do not find they do pretend any occasion of meeting there ; and therefore it leaves it the more suspicious : and 't is the more so , because it was managed so privately and cautelously . they were not attended according to their qualities . the lords went away together in a hackney-coach that was called , as they had come thither in another . the rest thought fit to stay there till it was dark ; and as soon as it was so , went away . there was some extraordinary cause for all this . it did import the prisoner to shew , that it was for some good cause and purpose . and further , it is observable that this house was a place which , as the master says , none of this company did use to resort to , except sir john friend ; which makes it probable ( this being a house that sir john friend frequented and none of the others ) that he bespoke this place , and brought the rest thither : and if it were so , that makes it more probable that there was such a treason there to be hatch'd , as is evidenced by the king's witnesses ; for you may remember , and it appears by the record in this court , that sir john friend was indicted and attainted ( not for the assassination , but ) for the treason for which the prisoner is now a trying , an invasion that was to be supported with an insurrection . now if sir john friend was chiefly acquainted with this house , and brought this company together , it is very probable it was about this business which sir j. friend was so concerned in . and that he is attainted for it , appears upon the record before us ; which should be read , but that the prisoners counsel admit it , and are so far satisfied in it , that they won't arraign the verdict ; nay , they did acknowledge that there was a plot ; and there was no doubt of it , there was such a plot. now then gentlemen , here it is certainly proved by these two witnesses , ( and not gainsaid by the prisoners own witnesses , ) that there was such a meeting , and that the prisoner was there ; and they both have positively sworn that this treason was committed there . you have heard what has been objected to their credit ; they have delivered their testimony upon their oaths ; and so , gentlemen , are you upon your oaths : if you are satisfied , and can take it upon your consciences that these two witnesses are , or any one of them is , forsworn ( if such distinction can possibly be made in this case ) then you are to acquit the prisoner ; but if you are satisfied , and think they have sworn true , you are to find him guilty . mr. j. rokeby . nay , if one be forsworn both are ; for the evidence is entirely in all parts the same ; and if mr. goodman be perjured , mr. porter is so too . sir b. shower . forsworn and perjured are hard words ; we only say mistaken . mr. j. rokeby . well , that objection goes to one as well as t'other . l. c. j. treby . it must be so , since they speak of the same joint matter , viz. their being together in company . if mr. porter says true when he swears that mr. goodman was there with him and the rest , mr. goodman must say true when he swears that he was there with mr. porter and the rest . there was one thing that i forgot : sir b. shower observed , that it might be an invention of captain porter , because he fixeth it in point of time to the month of may , that he does not say it was in april ; for that then it would be within the pardon , which extends to april . last year ; nor would he lay it in june , for then he was in newgate , and others of them were disperst by reason of a riot committed in drury-lane ; and so there was no month left but may : and this sir b. shower alledges , was a piece of skill and contrivance . but , really , this is a piece of ingenuity in himself . for , besides that the king's witnesses affirm positively that it was in may , and remember it by a certain token , viz. that it was within a very few days after the king went beyond sea , one or two of the prisoner's witnesses ( crawford i am sure ) did say that this meeting was this time twelve-month , and you know we are now near mid - may. mr. serjeant darnall . if you believe our drawers for part , you must believe them for all . mr. att. gen. no , not so : my lord speaks only where they concur with our evidence . it were strange to expect we should disbelieve or doubt what the witnesses on both sides affirm to be true : but , i do not think it would be to the advantage of the prisoner , if what his counsel proposeth were agreed to , viz. that the drawers ( and their master too ) should be believed for all they say , provided equally that the king's witnesses should , in like manner , be believ'd for what they say . for , the main thing controverted is , whether mr. goodman were at this meeting . these witnesses for the prisoner say , they did not see him there ; at least they do not remember it . mr. porter and mr. goodman himself say , he was there . now , these things agreed , and admitted , would make a very consistent clear evidence , that mr. goodman was there , though the master and drawers did not observe , or do not remember his being there . then an officer was sworn to keep the jury , who withdrew to consider of their verdict , and about three quarters of an hour after they returned into court. cl. of arr. gentlemen , answer to your names : henry sherbrook . mr. sherbrook . here : and so of the rest , &c. cl. of arr. are you all agreed of your verdict ? jury . yes . cl. of arr. who shall say for you ? jury . our foreman . cl. of arr. set peter cook to the bar ( which was done ) peter cook hold up thy hand ( which he did ) look upon the prisoner , how say you , is he guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of arr. what goods or chattels , lands or tenements had he at the time of the treason committed , or at any time since ? foreman . none to our knowledge . cl. of arr. then hearken to your verdict as the court has recorded it : you say that peter cook is guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , but that he had no goods or chattels , lands or tenements at the time of the high treason committed , or at any time since to your knowledge , and so you say all . jury . yes . cl. of arr. gentlemen , the court dismisses you , and thanks you for your service . then the court adjourned till a-clock in the evening . post meridiem . about six a-clock , the court being , by proclamation , resum'd , the prisoner convicted was brought to the bar , in order to judgment . cl. of arr. peter cook , hold up thy hand ( which he did ) thou stand'st convicted of high treason , for compassing and imagining the death of his majesty king william the third , and for adhering to the king's enemies ; what canst thou say for thy self , why the court should not give thee judgment to dye according to the law ? cook. my lord mayor , my eyes are very bad , therefore i desire your lordship would be pleased to take this paper , and that it may be read . cl. of arr. have you any thing to say in arrest of judgment ? cook. i desire my paper may be read . [ it was handed up to the court , and then delivered down to mr. att. general and the king's counsel , but not openly read . ] mr. recorder . mr. cook , the court have read your paper you sent up , and have communicated it to the king's counsel ; if you have any thing to move in arrest of judgment , this is your time , and we will hear you , but as for any representation of your case to any others , that must be considered of afterwards , you are now called to your judgment . cook. i did not know that i might offer any thing afterwards , but if your lordships think fit to communicate that to my lords justices , i submit it to you . mr. recorder . mr. cook , there is nothing appears upon this paper that is matter of law , and so not serviceable to you now , and therefore what you desire in it , the court will consider of afterwards . cook. i do not understand the law , my lord , but i have heard the court ought to be of counsel for the prisoner , and i desire i may not suffer by my ignorance . mr. recorder . i declare it , for my part , i know nothing that you can have any advantage of in arrest of judgment ; if i did , you should not lose the benefit of it , and you have had your counsel assigned , who have pleaded for you without restraint ; and if there had been any matter of law that would have availed you in arrest of judgment , no doubt , they would have laid hold of that advantage for you . cook. i can't tell , my lord , what is matter of law. mr. att. gen. your lordship observes , they took all the objections that they could to the indictment , but there was none that they could fix . cl. of arr. then cryer make proclamation . ( which was done on both sides of the court. ) cryer . oyez , all manner of persons are commanded to keep silence while judgment is in giving , upon pain of imprisonment . cook. my lord , may i have my paper again ? mr. recorder . if you think it may be of any service to you to leave it with the court , you may do so ; or if you desire it , you shall have it again . cook. i desire your lordship to keep it . mr. recorder . i will receive it , and it shall not be buryed , i assure you . cook. i don't hear what the court says . mr. recorder . you say you did not hear what was said to you : if you desire to have your paper again , you shall have it , but if you desire to have it communicated above , the court will consider it , and take care of that too . cook. i desire your lordship wou'd do it . then the recorder proceeded to give judgment thus . mr. cook , i think it useful to the publick , and also at this time to you , to observe , that the reign of the late king james , was throughout , one intire design and project form'd in conjunction with the french king , totally to subvert our religion , laws , and liberties , which grew so apparent to the subjects of these nations , in so many instances of fatal consequence , manag'd in such a method , and advanc'd so far , that the people of these kingdoms , of all qualities , ranks , and degrees , did find it absolutely necessary for the preservation of themselves and the neighbour nations now in alliance with us , to pray in aid of the then prince of orange , as a person , not only nearly allied to this crown ; but also intirely in the interest of these kingdoms , and those neighbouring princes , and countries that lay exposed to the violence and ambitious insults of france . and the love which that noble prince did bear , not only to us , but to our neighbours also , disposed him to embrace that invitation , upon whose arrival here , that predecessor , from motives that were invisible , declin'd the kingdom and the government ; and left the people to themselves ; whereupon his present majesty was necessarily and rightfully placed upon that throne he so well deserv'd : and this is now that king , for whose preservation all good people have associated , and spare neither lives nor treasure to support and to continue in the government ; and this is that king whom you have traiterously conspired , not only to dethrone , but also to destroy ; and this is that people that you would have to swim in blood , and lose their religion , liberty , and property . these matters need a history to relate at large , i only touch them shortly , to move good men to rejoyce in their deliverance , and to move you seriously to reflect upon the heinousness of your crime . mr. cook , you are an english man , and must needs know , that in this place we frequently condemn to death clippers , coiners , thieves and robbers , and other such like criminals , and that justly and necessarily too , for the preservation of the innocent , and for the common good. of what condemnation must you , and such as you , be worthy then , who have so horridly endeavour'd and design'd the fatal ruin and destruction of your own native country , and to render your fellow subjects a miserable prey , and at the best to become slaves and vassals to a foreign prince ? let me also mind you , that nothing is more sure , than that after this , you must receive a judgment in another world ; and if that pass against you too , that sentence will be most terrible , and your sufferings without end : and therefore i do advise you to imploy the few days you have yet to live , in preparation for your future happiness , which cannot be duly done without a full confession of this , as well as other crimes you have been guilty of ; i therefore charge it to you , as your duty , and leave it with you at your utmost peril , that you honestly and faithfully discover all you know of this inhuman and traiterous conspiracy , and all the persons that you do know to be guilty of it : this will be the greatest service you can do in this world , and will be the best preparatory step that you can take towards a better . and , sir , there now remains no more for me to say , but to pronounce that sentence on you which the law directs . and that is this , that you , peter cook , be taken hence to the place from whence you came ; and thence be drawn upon a hurdle to the place of execution , where you are to be hang'd by the neck , and cut down before you be dead ; that your bowels be taken out , and your privy members cut from your body , and both burnt in your sight ▪ that your head be cut off , and your body divided into four quarters , which head and quarters are to be at the king's disposal ; and god allmighty have mercy upon your soul. cook. i beg , if your lordship please , that i may have my relations and friends come to see me , and some divines , the better to prepare me for another world. mr. recorder . mr. cook , if you 'll give the names of those that you would have come to you , to the officer , care shall be taken in it ; and you will not be denyed any reasonable helps that may be had for your preparation for eternity . mr. att. gen. it is not fit he should be deny'd any reasonable help ; but in the mean time there is reason for the government to be cautious , upon the account of what has notoriously past in the case of some others . mr. recorder , if he give in the names , it will be considered of , and care taken that nothing be done , but what is reasonable , and safe . then the prisoner was taken from the bar , and the court proceeded to what was remaining of the business of the sessions . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e rookwood's tryal . . a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, may , , & , setting forth the tryal & condemnation of charl. pamplin, for killing lieutenant charles dalison, neer covent-garden : with a particular account of the tryals and condemnation of three men for robbing on the highway, and two others for horse-stealing : and likewise the tryal and conviction of a yound [sic] lad for stealing one hundred and forty pounds out of a goldsmiths shop in lumbard street : and an exact relation of all other remarkable proceedings : with the number of those that are condemn'd, burn'd in the hand, and to be whipt, &c. : these are to give notice, that the book of the sessions that came out first, printed for benj. harris, is false, imperfect, and without order. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, may , , & , setting forth the tryal & condemnation of charl. pamplin, for killing lieutenant charles dalison, neer covent-garden : with a particular account of the tryals and condemnation of three men for robbing on the highway, and two others for horse-stealing : and likewise the tryal and conviction of a yound [sic] lad for stealing one hundred and forty pounds out of a goldsmiths shop in lumbard street : and an exact relation of all other remarkable proceedings : with the number of those that are condemn'd, burn'd in the hand, and to be whipt, &c. : these are to give notice, that the book of the sessions that came out first, printed for benj. harris, is false, imperfect, and without order. england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). p. printed for d.m., london : . "with allowance. ro. l'estrange." reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england. crime -- england. criminals -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , may , , & . . setting forth the tryal & condemnation of charl. pamplin , for killing lieutenant charles dalison , neer covent-garden . with a particular account of the tryals and condemnation of three men for robbing on the highway : and two others for horse-stealing . and likewise the tryal and conviction of a yound lad for stealing one hundred and forty pounds out of a goldsmiths shop in lumbard street . and an exact relation of all other remarkable proceedings . with the number of those that are condemn'd , burn'd in the hand , and to be whipt , &c. ☞ these are to give notice , that the book of the sessions , that came out first , printed for benj. harris , is false , imperfect , and without order . with allowance . ro. l'estrange . london : printed for d. m. . the proceedings at the sessions holden for london and middlesex . the first that came to hi● tryal , was a little boy , pretending not to be above ten years of age , for stealing a silver s●lt of the value of ten pounds , out of a goldsmiths shop . there were two other greater thieves concerned with him , who having several indictments against them , pleaded guilty to this and all other within the benefit of clergy : they gave aim and directions , and this little mercury did the feat ; for which he was found guilty , but in pity to his age , he was onely burnt in the hand . a man and a woman were indicted for stealing a bay mare , taken out of a stable in essex on the th of march last , and brought by the woman at the ba● into an inne in aldersgate-street . against the m●n there was no evidence , and the woman alleadged that she was onely a messenger hired by a person executed last sessions , to remove the mare from one in●e to another ; and thereupon were both acquitted . a man , his wife , and another woman were indicted for stealing four demicasters the th of april last , about london bridge . the man confessed it , the woman who sold them in longlane one justified her self as being his wife , the other as coming by them by his delivery ; and so got off . a wench coming to service by newgate street , after she had been there a fortnight , takes her opportunity in her masters and mistrisses absence to steal a silver tankard valued at l. s. and a very considerable quantity of linnen and wearing apparel ; with which she flies to oxford , and there upon the notice given in the gazette , was taken with part of the goods , and now found guilty of felony , alleadging she was instigated to it by a sweet-heart of hers that came from portsmouth . a man and a woman indicted for stealing l d . in money and a great quantity of linnen and clothes out of an alehouse in beech lane ; where four of them came to drink one pair of stairs , and so 't is thought picklockt the door two pair of stairs , no body else being that way between the time the things were seen and miss'd ; yet there being no positive proof , nor any thing taken upon them , they were found not guilty . another fellow for stealing a silver beaker out of a publick house in the same parish , had not such good suck : for his companion exposing it to sale , and offering him as a voucher , the first fled , and he was taken , and partly by his own words was found guilty . a country man was arraigned for taking away . pieces of broad gold on the th of nov. last out of a victualing house in st. dunstans in the west . he and another came thi●her to dine in a room where was a closet ; which the woman occasionally opening , left the key in the d●or , and the prison●● bring old acquaintance in the house , pulled open the door and lookt into the closet ; which the other in a jesting way told the woman of , and bid her lo●k if she miss'd any thing : who seeing all things in order , and particularly her purse , where she left it , concluded her gold safe , and said she miss'd nothing at present , but if she did afterwards , he should answer it . three weeks after , she misses her gold , and speaks to the said other gentleman to tell the now prisoner of it , being in the country , who resolutely denies it . but that which seem'd to have most weight , was , that amongst this gentlewomans gold there was one ●iece that was of olivers coyn , and remarkable for several tokens as she declared , and it appeared the prisoner had lately sold just such a piece to a person of honour ; which being produced , had exactly such marks as she had before declared , and now upon her oath affirmed it to be the same to her best belief and knowledge . however , the case appearing dubious , and the prisoner ( who was proved by a multitude of persons of worth to be both a very honest and very able and substantial man ) alleadging , and the before-mentioned ●onourable person declaring to the best of his remembrance , that he sold him that piece at michaelmas last , whereas she lost not here till ● nov. and for that one piece might be like another , and she not missing them till so long after , some other body might in the mean time take them : the jury there ore thought fit to acquit the person charg●d , from the crime pretended against him . the note was the eminent tryal of charles pampliu for murdering lieutenant charles dalison , in which a great number of witnesses were examined . first it was proved , that on sunday the th of april last , about ten a clock at night mr. dalison neer his lodging over against the rose-t●vern in covent garden , was mortally wounded being run in under the left pap six inches deep : who it was did it none saw , but two swore mr. dalison said it was pamplin , and died within a quarter of an hour . a s●●ck was taken up on the place , which 't was proved the prisoner had borrowed that morning . 't was proved the day before he coming into a mans chamber while he was asleep , took away a very long sword and left his own in the room of it ; which long sword compared now with mr. dalisons , exceeded it a quarter of a yard in length . 't was also proved , the prisoner had declared , mr. dalison had affronted him , and that he would be reveng'd ; and that very morning he told one , he resolv'd to cudgel one that had abused him , and about ten or eleven a clock at night ( just about the time dalison was kill'd ) he past by the same person in hast , and looking amazedly , said onely , he had met with him . that he was thereabou●s till it was late walking up and down , did appear ; nay , one woman swore that he confest he kill'd the lieutenant , and at his taking in jewen street he endeavour'd to flie , and said , he was a dead man. upon all which , and divers other most violent circumstances , being able to alleadge very little for himself , but rather what made against him , as that he was sure mr. dalison was kill'd af●●r ten a clock , &c. he was found guilty of the murder , and received sentence of death . then three lusty young fellows were tryed for two several robberies on the highway , but of that baser kind called the foot pad . one was on a person passing on foot through king harries walk , whom they set upon , beat , took from him about five smillings , all that he had about him , and then flung him into a ditch and bound him . the other was on a butcher on horse-back , who riding home with his wise behinde him , in the evening spied these three men lurking under a tree , and endeavoured to turn his horse , but before he could get back , was beset ; whereupon he alighted and run for it , and they after : in the mean time the wife rides away to get help ; but they overtaking him , take from him three pounds , binde him , and get away , but were all taken , one at london , and two at newington , the next morning : and now both the persons swore directly and positively against them all three ; whereupon they were condemned . 't is observable these robberies were done the last execution-day at night , and it was proved these prisoners were that day at tyburn in a coach ; so little did the sad sight of their fellow-criminals wretched end affect them , that in defiance to justi●● they went immediately from that spectacle to act the same or like crimes as had brought the others thereunto . a young lad that was in but the last sessions , was now arraigned for stealing l. on the th of april last out of a goldsmiths shop in lumbard street . he watcht his opportunity when there was no body in the shop but a maid-servant , and stepping behinde the counter , snatches up two bags of money : the maid seeing him go out with them , concluded him some merchants man that came for some money he had left there ; but when they came to count over their cash , they one bag of l. and another of l. missing . upon further inquiry there was a porter saw him go forth also with the bags : so that being able to give a description , one of the marshals men took him the next day ; but the money was not to be found . the gentleman that lost it , to draw him to a discovery , put l. more into his hands , which he was to have if he would help him to it again . the boy pretended 't was buried in a field , &c. but spent between and s. of the l. and now denied he knew any thing of the said robbery , much less what was become of the l. however , on the aforesaid evidence , knowing him again , he was convicted and burnt in the hand . the little boy first mentioned , was next day tryed again , and found guilty of stealing from a goldsmith in holborn eight silver spoons valued at l. six silver forks silver tumblers ; of which , part b●ing taken upon him , were produced in court. two notorious horse st●alers were convicted on several indictments , being both joyntly found guilty of stealing two horses from bednal green ; one of which was taken at westminster , the other sold into sussex . they were likewise found guilty together of stealing a dun guelding on the ●h of apr. and one of them likewise by himself , convicted on two several indictments on the like kind : for which they received sentence of death . a woman was convicted of stealing a silver trencher-plate of his excellencies the portugal embassadors , whose arms she had scratcht out ; but bringing it to sell , the honest goldsmith stop : it on suspition , and after wards by patting it in the fire , or some such art he used , as did notwithstanding make most part of the arms conspicuous , he thereby discovered the owner , and seized the thief ; who was now convicted , but reprieved before judgment . two persons were here in question about false and counterfeit guinnies . one of them not long since was convicted at salisbury , as he now confest in court , forth : cheat of putting off such false guinnies ; and now it was proved he had put off no less than three , one at a tavern in moore-fields , which was produced in court ; another at hackney , where he was apprehended , and offered l. to evade prosecution , but the party was a better friend to justice than to accept it ; a third at another place . there was an indictment against themfor high treason ; but there was not sufficient evidence to prove that they counterfeited them : but on the other indictment for misdemeanour in cheating and defrauding the kings subjects , 't was apparent they were guilty . there were in all ten persons that received sentence of death , viz. seven men , one for murder , three notorious highway-men for several robberies , two upon five several indictments for horse-stealing , a young man for a felony , having been before burnt in the hand since christmas last ; and three women , one for robbing her master o● goods to a great value , the other two ( whereof one was an old notorious off●nder ) for several felonies committed under pretence of taking lodgings , thereby having ruined divers honest poor people . besides these , there were fourteen burnt in the hand , ●our ordered to be whipt , seven women sent from newga●● to bridewel , and twenty nine persons attainted or convicted heretofore of divers crimes , that now all at once on their knees in court pleaded his majesties gracious pardon . finis . the last speech of edward fitz-harris at the time of his execution at tyburn, the first of july, fitzharris, edward, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing f estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the last speech of edward fitz-harris at the time of his execution at tyburn, the first of july, fitzharris, edward, ?- . sheet ([ ] p.) printed for r. harbottle : and sold by r. janeway ..., london : . reproduction of original in cambridge university library. broadside. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng fitzharris, edward, ?- . popish plot, . trials (treason) -- great britain. broadsides - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the last speech of edward fitz-harris , at the time of his execution at tyburn the first of july , . this day , pursuant to the sentence pass'd at the kings-bench bar at westminster , on mr. edward fitz-harris , for treason , &c. he was neer the tower gate , on tower-hill , delivered into the custody of the sheriffs of london and middlesex , viz. slingsby bethel and henry cornish esquires ; who upon the place sign'd a discharge for him , to the lieutenant of the tower. then he was put on a sledge , and thence conveyed through the city of london to newgate , where he overtook oliver plunket , who was just before on another sledge , passing to the same place of execution . where being come , ( soon after plunket's private prayers , &c. ) fitz-harris ask'd captain richardson whether the sheriffs had a warrant for the disposal of his body , captain richardson answer'd yes . then he desired dr. hawkins assistance , which the sheriffs ●eadily granted , and called for him to go to him on the sledge ; which the doctor did , and on his knees embraced him , and con●inued a private discourse with him for some time . sheriff bethel ask'd mr. fitz-harris , what have you to say ? mr. fitz-harris answered , the doctor of the tower would answer for him , he having left his mind with him , mr. sheriff bethel . you will do well to discharge your conscience . fitz harris . i have left it all with the doctor in writing , under my hand , who will communicate it with witness to the world. doctor martin of wood-street being at the same time in the presence of the sheriffs , desired master fitz-harris to declare whether he died a protestant or a papist . he answered . having left his mind fully with doctor hawkins , he hoped it might be satisfactory . the doctor replied , it would be more satisfactory to declare himself there , and that it was no shame to die a protestant . to which master fitz harris replied as before . then master fitz-harris said , good people , this infamous kind of death is much more irksome to me than death it self : such judgments as these my sins against god may justly bring upon me , and i do most humbly submit unto it . but as to the crimes which i now die for , i take god to witness , i was no further concerned in the libel , than to discover to the king what practises of that kind were against him , being employed to that end , though those that employed me refused to do me justice at my trial. and i call god to witness , i never had a farthing of money of the king in my life , but on the account of the like service . and as to the witnesses that have sworn against me , i do here solemnly declare , now at my death , that i have not seen the french ambassador since the beginning of the breaking out of the plot , neither have i had any acquaintance with him . and as to his confessor , i never spoke with him in my life ; neither have i had any dealing , either directly or indirectly , in my life with them , though sir w. waller and the rest swore most falsely to the contrary . and how like it is that the french ambassador would give three thousand crowns for writing that libel , i leave the world to judge . what i may further declare , i have left with doctor hawkins . i forgive all the world , and do hope that god will forgive me . i beg the prayers of all good people for a happy passage into the other world. master fitzharris desired to know of the sheriffs , whether his body might not be at the disposal of his wife , without quartering . upon which the sheriff read him the warrant . london , printed for r. harbottle , and sold by r. janeway , in queen's-head-alley , in pater-noster-row , . doctor lamb revived, or, vvitchcraft condemn'd in anne bodenham a servant of his, who was arraigned and executed the lent assizes last at salisbury, before the right honourable the lord chief baron wild, judge of the assise. wherein is set forth her strange and wonderful diabolical usage of a maid, servant to mr. goddard, as also her attempt against his daughters, but by providence delivered. being necessary for all good christians to read, as a caveat to look to themselves, that they be not seduced by such inticements. by edmond bower an eye and ear witness of her examination and confession. bower, edmund. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing b thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) doctor lamb revived, or, vvitchcraft condemn'd in anne bodenham a servant of his, who was arraigned and executed the lent assizes last at salisbury, before the right honourable the lord chief baron wild, judge of the assise. wherein is set forth her strange and wonderful diabolical usage of a maid, servant to mr. goddard, as also her attempt against his daughters, but by providence delivered. being necessary for all good christians to read, as a caveat to look to themselves, that they be not seduced by such inticements. by edmond bower an eye and ear witness of her examination and confession. bower, edmund. [ ], p. printed by t.w. for richard best, and john place, and are to be sold at their shops in grays-inn-gate and furnivals-inn-gate in holburn., london, : . annotation on thomason copy: "july. ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng witchcraft -- england -- salisbury -- early works to . trials (witchcraft) -- england -- salisbury -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no doctor lamb revived, or, vvitchcraft condemn'd in anne bodenham: a servant of his, who was arraigned and executed the lent assizes last at bower, edmund. b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - robyn anspach sampled and proofread - robyn anspach text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion doctor lamb revived , or , vvitchcraft condemn'd in anne bodenham a servant of his , who was arraigned and executed the lent assizes last at salisbury , before the right honourable the lord chief baron wild , judge of the assise . wherein is set forth her strange and wonderful diabolical usage of a maid , servant to mr. goddard , as also her attempt against his daughters , but by providence delivered . being necessary for all good christians to read , as a caveat to look to themselves , that they be not seduced by such inticements . by edmond bower an eye and ear witness of her examination and confession . london , printed by t. w. for richard best , and john place , and are to be sold at their shops at grays-inn-gate and furnivals-inn-gate in holburn . . to the right honourable the lord chief baron wild . my lord , when your honour was pleased to approve of my intentions of acquainting the world with this narration , i beheld it with much fear , and had not your lordships incouragements answered all the objections i met with , i had chosen rather to deny the world a knowledge of it by my hand , than to expose it to the critical view of this censorious age ; but now since your lordships former incouragements have transported me through all difficulties , i humbly lay my endeavours at your lordships feet , and hope , that although i have not satisfied my own desires , nor others expectation , yet your lordship will condescend to the acceptance of my endeavours , which are in all things to be found at your lordships service . edmond bower . from my chamber in shaston , april . . witchcraft condemnd , or , a narration of the tryal of anne bodenham . there lived in fisherton anger , adjacent to the city of new sarum , in the county of wilts , one anne bodenham , wife to edward bodenham clothyer , aged . years , who formerly was ( as she confessed ) a servant to doctor lamb of london long since deceased , but in her later years , taught divers young children to read , pretending to get her livelyhood by such an employment . she was a woman much adicted to popery , and to papistical fancies that she commonly observed , and would declare to her neighbours ; she would often tell those , that had converse with her of lucky and unlucky days , which she would have them observe in their employments ; she was likewise addicted much to gossipping ( as the vulgar call it ) to tell strange unheard-of tales and stories of transactions , and things that have been , and might be done , by cunning and wise people ; she was one that would undertake to cure almost any diseases , which she did for the most part by charms and spels , but sometimes used physical ingredients , to cover her abominable practices ; she would undertake to procure things that were lost , and to restore stoln goods , upon which employments she was made use of by many people , and amongst the very many that came to her , there came one anne styles ( then a servant to richard goddard esquire , of the close in new sarum ) who had lost a silver spoon of her masters , and it was suspected by many servants of the house , that the spoon was stollen , who amongst themselves resolved to send this anne styles to anne bodenham , or the cunning woman , to discover the person that had stoln the spoon ; she whereupon having receiv'd from the cook maid bread and meat to give the vvitch , went to the witches house , where she was entertain'd very kindly , and at her comming the vvitch shaked her by the hand , rubbed her head and temples , and told her she knew wherefore she came , but said the wind did not blow , nor the sun shine , nor jupiter appear , so that she could not help her to the spoon ; withall told her , that she should shortly have occasion to come again to her about a greater matter ; and then the vvitch took of the maid . pence , and also bid the maid give her a jug of beer , which she did ; after which the vvitch told the maid the spoon should be brought again shortly , by a little boy which did use to her masters house ; and when the maid came home , she told the cook maid , and elizabeth roswel an other of the servants in the same house , what the vvitch , had told her ; at which time then elizabeth rosewel told anne styles , that master thomas mason , son in law to master goddard , had lost three pieces of gold , of . shillings a piece , and that master mason desired her to go to the vvitch to know who had the same , and withall bid her give the vvitch what mony she demanded , and he would repay her ; whereupon the maid went to the vvitches house again , who bade her come in , and told her she was welcome , and asked her wherefore she came ; to whom the maid answered , for gold that was lost ; and the vvitch immediatly replyed , it was mr. masons gold , and that master goddards boy , robert beck-ford , had been twice before with her about it ; the vvitch put on her spectacles , and demanding seven shillings of the maid which , she received , she opened three books , in which there seemed to be severall pictures , and amongst the rest the picture of the devill , to the maids appearance , with his cloven feet and claws ; after the vvitch had looked over the book , she brought a round green glass , which glass she layd down on one of the books , upon some picture therein , and rubbed the glass , and then took up the book with the glass upon it , and held it up against the sun , and bid the maid come and see who they were , that she could shew in that glass , and the maid looking in the glass saw the shape of many persons , and what they were doing of in her masters house , in particular shewed mistriss elizabeth rosewel standing in her mistriss chamber , looking out of the window with her hands in her sleeves , and another walking alone in her masters garden , one other standing in a room within the kitchin , one other standing in a matted room of her masters , against the window , with her apron in her hand , and shewed others drinking with glasses of beer in their hands ; after the witches shewing this to the maid , she then bad her go home , which when she came home , she asked the people ( she so saw in the witches glass ) what they had been doing while she had been wanting , and by their answers to her she found that they had been doing what she saw they were in the glass , and the maid relating this to elizabeth rousewel , she replyed , that mistriss boddenham , ( meaning the said witch ) was either a witch , or a woman of god . this being about one of the clock in the afternoon the maid went about her imploiment till . a clock in the evening , about which time elizabeth rosewel acquainting the maid , that her mistriss going to borrow money of her daughter in law mistriss sarah goddard , the money was stained black , and thereupon elizabeth rosewel told the maid that her mistriss was afraid of being poysoned by the said mistriss sarah , and by her sister mistriss anne goddard , for that she had been thrice before in danger of being poysoned , and therefore desired the maid to go to the vvitch , to know if there were any such things intended , and the maid as it was almost dark went to the vvitches house , and to her apprehension there was a little black dog that ran before her over crane-bridge , in the way between her masters and the vvitches , and so brought her to the vvitches house , where the doors flew open without her knocking , and the vvitch met her at the second door , and told her , she knew wherefore she came , and that it was about poysoning , and told the maid further that it was intended that her mistriss should be poysoned , and that there was moneys found in mistriss sarahs pocket , that was stained , but she would prevent it ; and further said to her , that it was mistriss sarahs intention to go a journy into summerset-shire , but she would shew her a trick , as she spoke the words , she should break her neck before she went out of the gate ; and then the vvitch took five shillings of the maid , ( that she had received from mistriss elizabeth rosewel ) and so the maid left her and went home , and when the maid came home , she went into master masons chamber , where master mason and mistriss elizabeth rosewel were , and acquainted them with what the vvitch had told her , and upon that , one of them replyed , the devill appeared in the faces of mistriss sarah and mistriss anne , and desired the maid to go again the next day , to know of the vvitch what the time should be that her mistriss should be poysoned , and the next morning about six or seaven of the clock , the maid went to the vvitches house , and carried five shillings along with her , and gave it the vvitch , and told her she was come to know the time when her mistriss should be poysoned , and the witch told her , it should be on a friday , but she would prevent it before that time , and bade the maid come again in the afternoon ; and when the maid returned home , master mason spoke to her immediatly to go again to the witch , to know of her , if one master rawley did intend him any mischief , for winning his money from him at play , and gave the maid two shillings to give the vvitch , and the maid did accordingly go , and did ask of the witch what master mason bid her , and the witch told her that master rawley had intended some mischief against him two several times , and had way-layd him , but she had and would prevent it , and would send him a charm , and took a piece of paper and put therein yellow powder , and so made it up in a cross figure , and gave it to the maid to deliver it to master mason to wear about his neck ; and the witch further told her , that if the charm were about him he need not fear what mony he owed , for no bay liff could take hold or meddle with him , and so the maid returned home and gave him the charm . the next day master mason sent the maid again to the witch , to tell her that he intended some law sutes with his father in law master goddard , and to know of her whether he should have the better of it , and gave the maid three shillings to give the witch , and when the maid came to the witches house and told her what she came for , the witch took her staff , and there drew him about the house , making a kind of a circle , and then took a book , and carrying it over the circle , with her hands , and taking a green glass , did lay it upon the book , and placed in the circle an earthen pan of coles , wherein she threw something , which burning caused a very noysome stinck , and told the maid she should not be afraid of what she should then see , for now they would come , they are the words she used , and so calling belzebub , tormentor , satan , and lucifer appear , there suddainly arose a very high wind , which made the house shake , and presently the back door of the house flying open , there came five spirits , as the maid supposed , in the likeness of ragged boys , some bigger than others , and ran about the house , where she had drawn the staff , and the vvitch threw down upon the ground crums of bread , which the spirits picked up , and leapt over the pan of coals oftentimes , which she set in the middest of the circle , and a dog and a cat of the vvitches danced with them ; and after some time the vvitch looked again in her book , and threw some great white seeds upon the ground , which the said spirits picked up , and so in a short time the wind was layd , and the vvitch going forth at her back door the spirits vanished , after which the vvitch told the maid , that master mason should demand fifteen hundred pound , and one hundred and fifty pound per annum of master goddard , and if he denyed it , he should prosecute the law against him , and begone from his father , and then he should gain it , with which message the maid returned and acquainted master mason . she was sent by mistriss rosewel divers times to enquire concerning sweet-hearts , when she should be marryed , and how she should dis-ingage her self from her sweet-hearts that formerly had solicited her in a way of marriage , the one now in france , the other with whom she broke a piece of gold to bind their contract , to which the vvitch gave her directions , and told her what would be the result and issue of those passages , and of many more of the like nature , that she was sent to propound to the vvitch , and in a short time after , mistriss rosewel sent her again to the vvitch , to know of her when the day should be , that mistriss goddard should be poysoned , and delivered her eight shillings to give the vvitch , so the maid went again to the vvitch accordingly , and gave her the eight shillings , and the witch replyed she could not tell her then , but gave the maid one shilling , and bid her go to an apothecary , and buy some white arsenick , and bring it to her to prevent it , which the maid did , and carryed it to the witch , who said to her she would take it and burn it , to prevent the poysoning , but she burnt it not as the maid could see at all ; then the maid returned home , and told master mason and mistriss rosewel what she had done , who laughed at it . the next day being tuesday , she was again sent by master mason , to know where the poyson should be found that should be given her mistriss , and when the maid had proposed the question to the vvitch , she took her stick ( as formerly is related ) and making therewith a circle , the wind rose forthwith , then taking a beesom she swept over the circle , and made another , and looking in her book and glass , as formerly , and using some words softly to her self , she stood in the circle and said , belzebub , tormentor , lucifer , and satan appear ; there appeared first a spirit in the shape of a little boy as she conceiv'd , which then turned into another shape something like a snake , and then into the shape of a shagged dog with great eyes , which went about in the circle ; and in the circle she set an earthen pan of coles , wherein she threw something which burned and stank , and then the spirit vanished , after which the vvitch took her book and glass again , and shewed the maid in the glass , mistriss sarah goddards chamber , the colour of the curtains , and the bed turned up the wrong way , and under that part of the bed where the bolster lay , she shewed the poyson in a white paper ; the maid afterward returned home , and acquainted mistriss rosewel with what the witch had shewed her in a glass , that the poyson it lay under mistriss sarahs bed , and also spoke to her that they might go together and take it away ; but mistriss rosewel replyed no , let it alone for gods sake , and would not , neither did she take it or suffer it to be taken away . and the witch further told the maid ( when she was with her the thursday ) that the next day being friday , about . or . of the clock at night , there should be sage ale made for her mistriss , and that there should be a white pot set upon the dresser in the kitchin wherein poyson should be put , but mistriss goddard should not drink it , and that mistriss rosewel knew best what to do ; and on the friday night , there was aleset on the fire ( as the witch before related ) the maid being that while sleeping in the hall ; mistriss rosewel awaked her and bid her go into the kitchin , and see whether or no there was not poyson in the cup ; and the maid looked and found something there , and called to mistriss rosewel , and told her there was something in it , which swimmed on the top , and something in the bottom , as the witch before had told the maid should be . and then mistriss rosewel took the same and carried it up to her mistriss , and shewed it her , and the maid afterward asking mistriss rosewel if she had told her mistriss of it , she replyed , that her mistriss knew well enough of it by her looks . the next day following being saturday the maid was sent again to the witch , to get some example shewen upon the gentlewoman that should procure the poyson , upon which the maid went again to the vvitch , and told her for what she was sent . then the witch made a circle as formerly , and set her pan of coles as formerly , and burnt something that stank extremely , and took her book and glass as before is related , and said belzebub , tormentor , lucifer , and satan appear , and then appeared five spirits , as she conceived , in the shapes of little ragged boyes , which the vvitch commanded to appear and go along with the maid to a meadow at wilton , which the vvitch shewed in the glass , and there to gather vervine and dill , and forthwith the ragged boys ran away before the maid , and she followed them to the said meadow , and when they came thither the ragged boys looked about for the herbs , and removed the snow in two or three places , before they could find any , and at last they found some , and brought it away with them , and then the maid and the boys returned-back again to the vvitch , and found her in the circle paring her nayls , and then she took the said herbs , and dryed the same , and made powder of some , and dryed the leaves of other , and threw bread to the boys , and they eat and danced as formerly , and then the vvitch reading in a book they vanished away ; and the vvitch gave the maid in one paper the powder , in another the leaves , and in the third the paring of the nayls , all which the maid was to give to her mistriss ; the powder was to put in the young gentlewomens mistriss sarah and mistriss anne goddards drink or broth , to rot their guts in their bellies ; the leaves to rub about the brims of the pot , to make their teeth fall out of their heads ; and the paring of the nayls to make them drunk and mad . and the vvitch likewise told the maid , that she must tell her mistriss , and the rest , that when they did give it them , they must cross their breasts , and then say , in the name of our lord jesus christ , grant that this may be , and that they must say the creed backward and forward . and when the maid came home and delivered it to her mistriss , and told her the effects of the powder , and the other things , her mistriss laughed , and said that it is a very brave thing indeed . and her mistriss sent her again the same day to the witch , to desire her to send her some charm , or writing under her own hand , that should keep her from ill , and preserve her from danger . and the vvitch took pen ink and paper , and wrote something , and put some yellow powder therein , and gave it to the maid to give it to her mistriss , and bad her tell her , that she must never look in it , and must carry it in her bosom by day , and lay it in a purse under her head by night ; and the monday following , the maids mistriss , master mason , and mistriss rosewel importuned her to go again to the vvitch to know of her whether or no she could not make the young gentlewomen exemplary some other ways , seeing that they could not give them the powder , and whether she could not send a spirit to bring them upon their knees , to ask her mistriss forgiveness ; but the vvitch told her she could not have any power of them unless shee could get her the tayls of their coats , or of their smocks , and if she had but that she could make the house fall about their ears , and could do more than master lilly or any one whatsoever ; which message the maid carryed to her mistriss , upon which her mistriss replyed , that would be pretty to be done , and mistriss rosewel spoke to the maid to cut off the same when they should be a bed , but the maid refused to do it , the young gentlewomen mistriss sarah and mistriss anne , hearing of these transactions about poyson , and that it should be laid to their charge , that they had a designe , and provided poyson to poyson their mother ; being much moved at it , and to vindicate themselves , that no such aspersion might lie on them ( in regard it was also reported , that they should buy one ounce and halfe of poyson that cost d. at an apothecaries ) they went about sarum to enquire whether any such thing was bought , and by whom , that the truth might be discovered , and the aspersion might be removed ; and having found where the poyson was bought , the maids fellow-servant mirian and mris. rosewell told the maid , that her mistris wished her to goe away and shift for her selfe , otherwise they supposed that she should be examined before some justice , and so there might some trouble and disgrace come upon them in the businesse : and the same night the maid went out of her masters house , and lay at one mattershawes the cookes : the next day in the morning mris. rosewell sent her word that she would speak with her at longmans house , and the maid went thither , where mris. rosewell brought her her cloaths , and wisht her to goe to london , and brought her s. which she laid out before to the witch , and d. as a gift from mr. mason ; and mris. rosewell sent to the witch , before she went , to know whether she did approve of her journey to london , and the witch wished her to go , and told her that she would send a paper by her to mr. mason , and did then write in the paper divers crosses and pictures , and other things , and put black and yellow powder therein , and told the maid she should give the same to mr. mason , and bid him use it how he pleased ; which paper the maid carryed along with her as far as sutton towards london , and there burnt it : but before the maid went away from the witch for london , the witch asked the maid whether she would goe to london high or low to which she replyed , what doe you mean by that ? she answered , if you will goe on high , you shall be carryed to london in the air , and be there in two hours ; but if you goe a low , you shall be taken at suttons towns end , and before , unlesse you have help : but before she departed , the witch earnestly desired the maid to live with her , and told her , that if she would do so , she would teach her to doe as she did , and that she should never be taken ; then the maid asked her what she could doe ? she answered , you shal know presently , and forthwith she appeared in the shape of a great black cat , and lay along by the chimny : at which the maid being very much afrighted , she came into her own shape again , and told her , i see you are afraid , and i see you are willing to be gone , and told her , if she was , she should say so , and not speak against her conscience ; and the maid replyed , she was willing to goe , and not to dwell with the witch ; then the witch said , she must seal unto her body and blood not to discover her ; which she promising to doe , she forthwith made a circle as formerly she had done , and looking in her book , and called beelzebub , tormentor , lucifer , and satan appeare , then appeared two spirits in the likenesse of great boys , with long shagged black hair , and stood by her , looking over her shoulder , and the witch took the maids fore-finger of her right hand , in her hand , and pricked it with a pin , and squeesed out the blood , and put it into a pen , and put the pen into the maids hand , and held her hand to write in a great book , and one of the spirits laid his hand or claw upon the witches , whilest the maid wrote , and when she had done writing , whilest their hands were together , the witch said amen , and made the maid say amen , and the spirits said amen , amen ; and the spirits hand did feel cold to the maid as it touched her hand , when the witches hand and hers were together writing ; and then the spirit gave a peece of silver ( which he first bit ) to the witch , who gave it to the maid , and also stuck two pins in the maids head-cloathes , and bid her keep them , and bid her be gone , and said also i will vex the gentlewoman well enough , as i did the man in clarington park , which i made walk about with a bundle of pales on his back all night in a pond of water , and could not lay them down till the next morning . the maid took her journey immediately for london , and about park cooner , two miles on her journey , there overtook her a man on horse-back , who asked her , whether or no she was going for london ? and she telling him yes , he lighted , and set her on horse-back , and went a foot by her about two miles , and then carryed her behinde him to stock-bridge , and then she went a foot through the town , but afterwards rode again , untill she was overtaken by mr. chandler and others , at sutton towns end . friendly reader , what is here related was delivered upon oath at the assises before the judges by the maid her self , and is not a fancy , but a truth ; yet if thou shouldest doubt it , suspend thy judgement till the last , and hear what others depose besides her , and many witnesses usually fully confirme what may be dubious upon one information . i must confesse i have used some other names in the narration before going , mris. goddard , mr. mason , mris. betty rosewell , mris. sarah and mris. anne goddard , and others , but i could not avoyd them , for i have related as the maids evidence was , and should i not have related the ground and foundation of the businesse , or if any of these passages should have been omitted , i should have much covered the wickednesse , and sewed fig-leaves to hide the vilenesse of the witch . and further know , judicious reader , i am not here to give a partiall relation of any thing , or to speak in the praise or dispraise of any person , neither doth it behove me to meddle with any actions of any persons besides the witches and the maids , therefore mistake me not , my intention was not , neither is it , by this , to lay any calumnies or prejudices on mris. goddard , mr. mason , or others , far be it from me ; i must confesse they were something to blame in sending up and down the maid , if they knew the woman to be a witch , and no doubt but they are sorry for it , that such an accident should happen , but the title and drift of the following part of my book , shews , my intent is to discover the practise of the witch , and should willingly let passe any thing else that relates not to it ; but , since i am digressed a little , let me here insert a word or two , and that is thus : there was for some short time some conceivings or thinkings that the young gentlewomen , mris. sarah and mris. anne goddard , should plot and attempt to poyson their mother in law : i need not say much in their vindication , they have already sufficiently cleared themselves , and the relation before shews they knew of no such thing ; besides their stirring and going about to the apothecaries , to finde out the ground-work of the plot , was the first rise and ground of the discovery of the witch : so that they are so far from lying under any imputation , that it is to be acknowledged by all that they were the instruments of its discovery , and therefore mris. goddard or others have no ground to cōjecture any such thing against them : i speak not any thing partially , for mris. goddard is a gentlewoman altogether unknown to me , mr. mason is one whom i never to my knowledge saw , and the young gentlewomen i never had any acquaintance with , and should i speak any thing to their dishonor or disesteem , i should speak it not knowingly : therefore friendly reader , harbour not any prejudicate opinion against any of them , by reason of what is here inserted ; for my owne part i bear none against them , and i hope this will not raise or stir up any in the reader ; for what is before said , is not enough to make them much faulty , but it shews and much aggravates the lewdnesse and wickednesse of the witch . but now to return where i left ; you have heard what hath been the practise of the witch in some measure , now i shall proceed to shew how she got power over the maid , and what miserable torments she was an instrument in bringing on her . mr. chandler son in law to mris. goddard , hearing that his mother in law was in danger of being poysoned , and that a servant of hers had bought the poyson , and was fled or gone away , he forthwith with one other man , william atwood ( that gave intelligence which way she was gone ) made after her , and overtook her neer sutton , and had her into the inne at sutton , and up into a room , she being then and at the time of her being apprehended in a great trembling and shaking , and so continued , and after a while mr. chandler and the other man bringing back the maid towards sarum , upon the way between sutton and stockbridge , the maid did confesse and acknowledge all the transactions and passages between the witch and her , as are related before : and when the maid was brought to stockbridge , in the inne at night , she also confessed the contract she had made with the devill , as is before related , and said she had received a peece of silver of the devill , which she shewed and delivered to mr. chandler , which is accounted to be ten pence half-penny , and the two pins which the witch stuck on her head , she also delivered to him , which he took of her and threw them into the fire , and presently took the money out of the fire again , but found not the pins ; and this was about twelve of the clock at night : and the maid then said upon delivery of the said money and pins , that she should be troubled , for that the devil had promised her that she should never be troubled as long as she kept it secret , and now having revealed it , she feared she should be troubled : and about one hour after , the maid sitting by the fire , upon a sudden fell into a trance , and cryed out she should be thrown into the fire ; and upon that , mr. chandler with the rest that were present with her , held her as fast as they could , yet could hardly keep her out of the fire ; and when the trance was leaving her , the man that went along with mr. chandler , cryed out to him , and bid him look there , poynting behinde the maid , and mr. chandler looking ( as he conceived ) he saw a black shade goe from her , and then she coming to her selfe , mr. chandler with her and the rest went to prayers , and the maid seemed to have such a carriage in prayer as if shee minded it , and prayed fervently , holding fast about mr. chandler's leg , and as they were concluding their prayers , william atwood called to the maid , and asked her what it was that she had thrown into the fire , and she said , it was something that the devil had given her to throw upon mr. chandler : and after prayers were ended , the maid arising from her knees , was not able to goe , and then said , that base and plaguy witch mris. boddenham hath bewitched me ; and afterwards the maid would cry out , and say that the devill , the witch , and the five ragged boyes did appeare before her as they formerly had done when she was at the witches house : and about two of the clock at night , the maid found her self very sleepy , & said , pray god blesse me , i wish it may be for my good , i am very sleepy : whereupon mr. chandler perswaded her to lie upon the truckle bed , which she did , and then mr. chandler lay down on the high bed , leaving the servants of the house with william atwood by the fire side ; and shortly after hearing a great noyse , and a groaning , mr. chandler found the maid in a great agony , and much perplexed , and notwithstanding he himself , william atwood , and the servants of the house held her as much and as fast as they could , yet she was taken from them , and those parts which were holden by them were thrown from them upon the floore , onely her feet which were not holden continued upon the bed , but the head and the rest thrown down , and all the while making a hideous noyse , with skrieking and crying out , in an agony she continued about one quarter of an hour ; and then about four of the clock the same night she was taken again , in the same manner , but onely the people then in the room were able to hold her , and she was not thrown away from them as before ; and about day-break the maid was taken with another terrible fit , and continued in the same about one quarter of an hour , but mr. chandler , william atwood , and the servants in the house could hardly keep her from tearing her selfe : and when the day appeared , and the night was past ; they brought the maid to sarum , and being examined before edw. tucker esq ; one of the justices of the peace for the county of wilts , she was committed on suspicion of the poyson pretended to be provided for her mistris , as before , and the witch also apprehended , and both put into prison , where the maid remained about three weeks till the assises , and was constantly taken with violent fits , as strange , as strong , not parallel to any fits that ever any person was known to have naturally , and so strong in them , that sometimes six men , sometimes more could not keep her from being hurryed from them , although holding her at the greatest advantage that possibly they could take her , keeping her down on a low bed , lying on the same , and every man holding a particular part of her body : so violent were her fits , and so strong was the motion of her body in them . these fits were also as frequent as violent , she having not for the most part one quarter of an hours respite from torment between them , and they continuing halfe an hour , sometimes an hour and more , and in this sad condition she continued sometimes two hours ; and so , many dayes together : and the monday morning following i comming to sarum , where there was a great rumour about the city of a witch that was found out , that had bewitched a maid , and they both were in prison , and that the maid was often troubled with such strange fits that drew both pity and admiration from the beholders , through the perswasion of some friends i accompanyed them to the prison , and when i came into the chamber where she lay , she was then in her fit , and so had been half an hour before i came , and i continued there one hour and half , and all that while her fit seised on her , she lying on a low bed in the midst of a chamber , and severall compassing her , holding her down : the nature of her fits i am unable to demonstrate by my pen , onely thus far , they suddenly seised on her , and would cause an exceeding trembling in all the members of her body , causing her to tear her self unlesse held , and she was so strong in them , that two men could not hold one arm , but many times would be pulled from them , she miserably groaning and skrieking , being deprived of her speech and sight , and many times she grinded her teeth , and sweat in her fits continually , constantly in motion , seeking to tear her self , and when her fits were taking their leave of her , she usually had an exceeding trembling , and a little reposed frame for two or three minutes before her violent hurryings would cease : this being the first time i saw her , and beholding so sad a spectacle , i could not but pity her , and by enquiry of other beholders , i understood she was sensible of what was said in her presence during her fits many times , though she was not able to speak her self , ( as she said between her fits ) and did desire the prayers of all such as came to her , to seek god on her behalf : but there being no minister then in the room , wee our selves went to seek god for her , and after wee had concluded our prayers , the maid continuing in her fits not able to speak or discourse , i then left her for some time , afterwards went ( being accompanyed with a multitude ) into the room where the witch was , where she sate neer the fire in the midst of a room , with many spectators , and she in a very senselesse idle manner and discoursing with them , and now and then cursing them if they used any distastefull words to her ; i finding others conversing with her , after them began to propound some questions unto her , and asked her whether she was sensible of her miserable condition ? she answered , i am not beside my senses . i told her , i did not mean , whether or no she had lost the common reason ( all men and women naturally ( more or lesse ) had ) by a frenzy , madnesse , or the like ; but i told her i meant in respect of her spirituall condition , whether she was sensible of her damnable estate by nature , and the guilt she had contracted on her self by reason of her wicked living , and the vile and abominable practises she had ( as it was to be feared ) used , and whether she had any minde or desire to be saved ? she answered , yes , from the jury ; i replyed , but have you any minde to be saved from hell ? yes , said she , i hope i have . q. on what do you ground your hope on ? a. a good faith in christ . q. do you know what faith is ? a. my good meaning . q. doe you know the fundamentalls of religion ? which must be known , or else there is no hope of any salvation . a. if i doe not , i wish you or some body would teach me , i desire to learn any thing for my good . q. why doe you not desire the prayers of ministers , and their company , to reveal your minde to them , and learn from them , which way you may forsake these wicked courses , and abominable practises , for now it is time to shame the devill ? a. i would very gladly have mr. connant , mr. stickland , mr. stone or any minister come to me to teach me , and to pray for me , but i am resolved never to hear our minister of fisherton more , if i am released , but i know i shall never be , but hanged i will warrant you ; and i wish you would now teach me , and i will learn ; pray with me and i will with you . q. can you pray for your self , and doe you make it your constant businesse to beg guidance and assistance from god , to direct you in the whole course of your life , and daily return him prayse and thanks for the mercies you receive ? a. i can say a great many good prayers , and i say them constantly ; i doe alwayes say the creed forward and backward every night , and other good prayers that i finde in my book . these and many more such questions i propounded to her , she answered me in such manner as abovesaid . before i had ended my discourse with the witch , one came to me , and told me that the maid was now out of her fits , and desired to speak with me ; upon which i went to the maid again , where i found her freed from the violent tormenting of her body ; who sitting up , desired to discourse with me ; upon which i propounded these questions : quest . how doe you apprehend your owne state and condition to be ? ans. oh very damnable , very wretched ; this hand of mine writ my name in the devils book , this finger of mine was pricked , here is yet the hole that was made , and with my blood i wrote my own damnation , and have cut my self off from heaven and eternall life ; the devill came , oh ! in a terrible shape to me , entred within me , and there he lies , swelling in my body , gnawing at my heart , tearing my bowels within me , and there is no hopes , but one time or other will tear me all in pieces ; had i not been held , i had been in hell , the devil never leaves but tels me so ; i see him also now standing on the top of the house , looking on me , and now and then he strives to get me from the people , and i think i were as good goe with him , for then i shall be at better ease and quiet ; i am not able to bear his beating and tearing me , he will kill me , there is no hope , i can scarce breath already , he will torment me as long as i am here , and will carry away my soul , hee tels me so , and i must goe . qust doe you not know salvation is to be had for the worst of sinners , if they are willing to be saved ? greatnesse of sin cuts not off mercy , if any have a minde to be saved ; manasseh voluntarily consulted with familiar spirits , yet had mercy ; christ himself when he was in the world made it much of his work to dispossesse evill and wicked spirits , he crossed the sea once on purpose , and all the work he did , was to dispossesse one possessed , and lodged among the tombes ; your case is not worse then theirs , for yours was a forced act , theirs voluntary , you may have salvation ; are you but sensible of the dishonor you have done to god , and have a minde to break off your league with the devill , and would have salvation . answ. oh , my act was willingly done as well as theirs ; the witch perswaded me indeed , but i freely consented , yet i doe heartily desire salvation with my whole soul ; oh , what would i doe to be freed from hell ! any thing in the world would i doe if i might for all this be saved ; sure i have deserved hell , but if god would have mercy on me , i doe with my heart desire it , and i would beg all the world to blesse god for it : oh the devils torments ! how can i be saved , when it was my own act to sell my selfe into the hands of the devill ! i cannot have one hours rest , and long i cannot be in this condition , the devil in a while will have me , doe what i can for my life , i shall not be able to help my self , i perceive he is too strong for me , and will get the masterdome of me at last : oh this base witch , this wicked damnable woman , that should make me murther my own soul , and would have carried me along with her into hell ! oh how shall i abide her company , it would be my death to see her , i was well enough before i saw her ; no indeed , i was an ignorant wicked creature , and should then have gone to hell , but yet i was not in such torments ; not one man or woman in the world knows my pain how great it is , but i hope this shall be the worst of my misery ; but how can i hope so that deserve hell , and the devill is within me , and if any thing at the present would give me ease , it must bee the burning of the witches cat and dog , for then i know and am sure that the devill will leave me , and goe and torment the witch . but a while i was perswading her that it was but a fancy , and a cure of the devils own suggestions , and not a lawfull cure ; she then fell into another violent fit , and the night approaching , i left her , to follow my occasions that called me thither , and it was not in my thoughts to return to the prison ; but on the next day being tuesday , as i was going in the street , a gentlewoman altogether unknown to my self , met me , and told me that the witch in prison earnestly desired to speak with me , and if i would come to her , she would reveal that to me which she was resolved to keep secret from all the world besides . and also that the maid did wish for my company , and did desire , if any knew me , to finde me forth if they could , and perswade me to come to her . whereupon , i did goe to the prison , and when i came , found her in one of her former fits , not able to speak or see any man , lying foaming , raving , groaning , skrieking , trembling in an unheard of manner , impossible to be related so exactly as it deserves for the novelty ; in which condition she remained all the time i was there , which was about one hour and half , and had been in that fit halfe an hour before i came ; in which time , the violence thereof had wearied six men that held her ; and such had been her condition all that night before , having not one quarter of an hours respit between her fits . upon serious consideration of which , it was thought , that in all humane probabilities 't was impossible for her body and soul long to keep together ; and by her words there was some ground of hope that she had not quite sinned away mercy , but that mercy might be obtained for her : the result of our thoughts that were then present ( being many ) was , to spend that afternoon in seeking god for her ; having a great many there in the presence , and also one mr. allena prisoner , very well gifted in prayer , and some knowledge concerning the nature of this wicked art : i ( for the present ) departed , and saw not the witch , but in the afternoon came to the prison again , about one of the clock ; and when i came , the maid was in her fits , in such manner as formerly , and was not able to speak , being by the violent hurryings of her body ( quite ) almost wearyed , which were so strong , that it was impossible any naturall strength could support her long . before we began our exercise , the maid was set up in a chair , and four or five men endevoured to hold her in it ; but she got out of it notwithstanding their endevours , and tore the chair in pieces , and being hurryed halfe way to the end of the room , they were scarce able to recover her to the bed , that so laying her along they might have the advantage of holding her , but at last by very much strength they got her down , and so had such advantage an they held her ; at which time there came into my thoughts a story which i had long before read in mr. scot's discovery of witchcraft : that one way of discovery was , to bring the suspected party into the afflicteds presence ; upon which i desired that the witch might be in the room that afternoon , while we were seeking god for mercy on the behalf of the maid ; i had my desire granted , and authority to bring them together ; and so the witch was brought up into the maids chamber , but unknown to the maid , she lying this while under most grievous hurryings and tortures of body ; and as the witch came into the roome , divers stood between the maid and the dore that they could not see each other ; at the very instant of time as the witch set one foot within the room the maid gave a most hideous glance with her eyes , and shut them presently after , and fell asleep in a moment , before it could be spoken almost . there were at that time in the room some women that were friends to the maids , that had taken up a resolution to fall foully on the witch and get some blood from her ; for prevention of which i stood by the witch to save her , she being very much afraid , and crying out , the wicked people will scratch and tear me : now to insinuate into her , i began to enter into discourse with her , and said to her as followeth : mris. boddenham , you see here is a maid in a very sad condition , and thus she hath been manydayes ; while i was thus speaking , shee broke forth into bitter speeches against the maid ; saying , ah whore ! ah devil ! she hath belyed me , and the devils will tear her for it , i will warrant you . i replyed to her , mris. boddenham , the businesse now is to know if you can prescribe any thing that can cure her , you have formerly cured divers ( many people say ) that have been in the like condition ; pray prescribe a cure likewise for this maid . she answered , i have cured hundreds , and beleeve can cure this maid also , if you will let me alone with her ; but we suffered her not to meddle with her , but desired her to prescribe what means she used in the same case : to which she replyed , nothing but good prayers , and also hanging something about her neck . and being asked what it was she hung about the neck ? she answered , a spell written in a peece of paper : and heing demanded to whom she did pray for cure ? she answered , to jupiter , he is the best and fortunatest of all the planets , and in such a case as this we always pray to the planet jupiter . i then told her ( after a long discourse of the like nature ) that the businesse that we had her here for , was , to the intent , that since the purpose of our hearts here present was to call on god , and wait on him at the throne of grace that afternoon , to shew mercy to the afflicted maid , it being a lawfull way , and that which hath been a means formerly of prevailing with god in the like nature ; and the way that christ taught his disciples , when they would learn to caste out devils , telling them that it was to be done by fasting and prayer ; therefore we would know of her whether she would willingly joyne with us ? we told her our prayers should be , that god would cast an eye of pity on the maid , and release her from her misery ; that hee would acquit the innocent , discover the guilty , and bring to light the hidden and abominable works of darknesse : she answered , yes , shee would joyn in prayer with us . and when we had concluded our seekings of god , it was desired that the maid might be awaked , for that she had slept ever since mris. boddenham the witch came into the roome , which was almost three hours , and had not been known to sleep , or take any rest in many dayes and nights before ; and i did apparently see , that the maid was , and is the better at ease for the witches presence : the witch presently took hold about me , crying out , oh pray by no means doe you awake the maid ; for if she should awake , i should then be torn in pieces , and the devill would fetch me away bodily ; yet , notwithstanding her cryings out and perswadings to the contrary , i desired the people to awake her ; and they tryed what they could , stopt her breath , put things up into her nostrils , took her from lying along , and held her upright , and struck her extreamly ; yet all the means we possibly could use did not awake her ; which was a great admiration to all spectators , that she could not take any rest for many dayes and nights before , and should be in such violent fits untill the witch came into the room , and then she should be on a sudden so eased of her torments and pain , and fall asleep that no art or means could awake her . i then desired the witch to use what means she could to awake her , which she was very loath to doe , saying , the maid hath an ague , and this sleep would make her well , yet we made her to try to awake her : the witch onely took her by the hand , but trembled extreamly , and called the maid by her name , awake , awake ; and that was the most we could make her doe ; but still begging and desiring the people not to awake her : we seeing there was no remedy or means to awake her , ( for my intention was to have caused them to have discoursed together , thinking by their discourse something might be found out to prove the suspected a witch , and to convict her the more evidently ) i caused the witch to goe forth of the chamber , but she would not goe unlesse i went along with her , for she then said , i should awake the maid , and then she should be torn in pieces ; but i would not yeeld to goe along with the witch , but was resolved to see the maid awake out of her sleep ; but when ( partly by force and partly by entreaty ) we had gotten the witch out of the chamber downe the stairs , as soon as ever she was gone from under that roof where the maid was , into the prison-house where she used to reside , the maid began immediately to awake , in such an orderly manner , as if she had been at the sweetest repose and rest that possibly could be , and afterward having recovered her senses both to look abroad and speak , she said , i blesse god the devill went away from me but even now , and to my owne thinking i have been in so sweet a sleep as ever i had in my life , and to my apprehension was in the most sumptuous pleasant place that ever my eyes beheld , where all the most pleasant sights of flowers and delights are : oh how sorry am i that i slept no longer ! yet blessed be god i am now at ease , the devill went forth of my stomach even now ; indeed he made my body tremble when he went out , but that was the worst he did to me ; he is now departed , he hath stood all this day on the top of the house , in the likenesse of a lyon , with flaming eyes , but he is now likewise gone from thence , and i see him no where , and i hope never to be vexed more : indeed i have deserved to be torn in pieces by him , but my lord jusus christ in mercy hath now freed me , and i am verily perswaded shall not be tormented more , the hour of mercy is now come ; i have indeed had mercy in being kept out of hell , but now i have more mercy to be freed from my pain ; 't is a wonder to me , i should be so well in so short a time , that had more pains on me then ever i could , or shall be able to expresse : my body is now free from pain , my minde is now quieted , sure god hath heard your prayers for me , the lord hath stirred up some people to call on god for my salvation , and i trust he hath heard them ; sure i shall never in the least requite you all for your love , i hope god will likewise shew you all the same mercy , as ( blessed be the lord ) i am this hour made partaker of . i now begin to be hungry , and i thank the lord i have an appetite to my food , i would now eat any thing , and if you would help mee upon my feet , i am confident the lord would enable me of my self to goe about the chamber : which she did doe , and said , the greatest pain she felt was the bruisings of her body , by reason of the peoples forcible holding her , and a swimming in her head by reason of the long distractions of her minde she had lain under , but said , blessed be the lord it is so well as it is with me , i am resolved to serve this god that shewed mee this mercy ; i will hereafter heedfully live , and will for ever avoyd such base company as this witch , and for her i will never have any thing to doe with , while i live ; yet i blesse god , she can doe me no harm , she hath done the worst she can already ; the devill hath told me many times , if i would keep counsell i should not be tormented , but i will not hearken to him , i will speak the truth , though it be my death , for i have dishonoured god too much already . many more such like expressions she used , but are too many to be enumerated . the night being come , we returned prayse to god for his seasonable deliverance of the maid , and because he had mercifully and suddenly given a gracious hearing to our prayers : in this time i desired some to eye the person and carriage of the witch , that was in the prison-house some distance from the maid : who informed me , that as soon as ever the maid awaked , and began to be at ease , the witch began to be tormented , and to roar and cry out , oh the devill , the devill , the devill will tear me in pieces , running from one corner of the room to the other , shaking and ratling her fetters , striking with a stick in her hand those that were in the room , prisoners and others ; crying out , and cursing the maid , saying , oh this whore will be the death of me , she will hang me , and i shall be killed and torn in pieces : and she was in such an hideous rage , that the people were fearfull to stay neer her : i being made acquainted that she was very importunate to speak with me , i left the maid , and was going away , but i at a distance called to her , having then no great minde to come very neer her , she being in such a furious condition , and to satisfie her , told her that the maid was now very well , and i make no doubt but she would in a while be released : she replyed , yes , at the gallows , no where else , for i am sure i shall be hanged ; and said to me , for your part , i see you are a knowing man ; and if you will come to me to morrow morning , when i may speak privately with you , i will tell you all my art : i told her , i would hearken to any thing she would tell me , and would come to her the next morning . the next day , being wednesday , in the morning i went to the prison , where i found the maid then very well freed from her former fits , and was informed , had been all that night before freed from them , and had took her rest very well . i then went to the witch , who desired me to go into a room by my self with her , which i did , and she shut the dore after we were in ; she then would have called for some beer to drink to me , but i would not permit her , telling her , i was resolved not to drink ; she then made me sit down by her , and she took a peece of silver , i think it was a shilling , and offered it to me , telling me i must take that peece of silver of her , if i intended to learn any thing of her : i replyed , i had no need of a shilling , and would not take it , for i was able to give her a shilling ; said she , give me one then , and that will be as well : i replyed , not so neither , you doe not want one . shee then fell a cursing and swearing that i must take that silver of her , otherwise she could not teach me any thing : i replyed , tell me what you can doe first , happily i can doe already what you can , if not , i may learn it afterward : she replyed , thou must keep my counsell , or else all will doe thee no good ; and thou must now promise to me , that thou wilt not come to undermine me , to undoe me : i answered , you need not think so , for you see i am come into a room privately , that none else might know what you teach me . she then said , shee could cure diseases by charms and spels , and had prayers that would doe so likewise ; and they could cure such diseases as the best doctors could not doe ; she could discover stolen goods , and shew any one the theef that had them , in a glasse ; and that she could raise spirits by reading in her books . i asked her , what books she had , and where she had them ? she answered , she had a great many notable books , and she had most part of them of dr. johnson ; and withal told me , if i would keep them secret , she would let mee have them , if i would accept of them : i told her yes , she should let me have what books she would , and i should be very thankfull to her for them ; but desired her to let me see the red book that the maid set her hand to , that was written half over with blood ( being the names of witches that had listed themselves under the devils command . ) she replyed , i cannot help you to that book , for withers hath that , a man that lives in hampshire . but then said i too her , pray let me have what books you can help me to : so she sent her husband with me to her house , with one man more , to deliver mee her books : and when i had them , i left them with a gentleman in sarum to keep them safe , that they might be brought to the fight of the judges at the assises . i then went to the witch , and told her , that the books i had were nothing concerning her art ; i would willingly have that book that did raise the spirits : ah! ( saith she ) that is safe enough from my hu●band , that is a book of charms , he is hid safe , but that thou shalt have it , if i could have my liberty to goe home , for that book is worth thousands of other books , and can doe more ; i will shew the use of him , and what charm thou shalt use to finde out a l. that lies hid in the north part of wilton garden , being hid by the old earl of pembrook , father to the last deceased , and 't is not to be found but by a charm : but for the present i could not have her liberty to goe for it , so that i had it not . and she then also told me that she had been a servant to dr. lambe , and the occasion she came to live with him , she said was , that she lived with a lady in london , who was a patient many times to him , and sent her often in businesse to him , and in particular , she went to know what death king james should die ; and the doctor told her what death , and withall said that none of his children should come to a natural death ; and she said she then saw so many curious sights , and pleasant things , that she had a minde to be his servant , and learn some of the art ; and dr. lambe seeing her very docile , took her to be his servant ; and she reading in some of his books , with his help learnt her art , by which she said she had gotten many a penny , and done hundreds of people good , and no body ever gave her an ill word for all her paines , but alwayes called her mris. boddenham , and was never accounted a witch but by reason of this wicked maid now in prison , and then fell a cursing of and reviling at the maid extremely . having spent out this forenoon likewise , i then left the prison , and departed ; and heard no more of any thing concerning the witch or the maid , onely that the maid remained well , and that the witch would tell those shee esteemed her friends , that surely she did beleeve that i was a witch , and did think i should doe many notable things with her books . and about three weeks after i received a letter from edw. tucker and francis swanton esq ; two justices of the peace , to be at the assise to prosecute against the witch , who withall in their letter acquainted me that the maid was now troubled as formerly , and desired me to come to sarum again , to see if i could discover any thing more of the witches practise , and i came on the friday following the tuesday night in which the maid began to relapse into her former fits , and was tormented as formerly ; and at night about eleven or twelve of the clock , the maid was miserably tormented , crying out , the devill would carry her away before the morning ; and in short time after she was pulled from those that held her , and the people in the room run away for fear : the maid being thrown from the low bed whereon she lay , to the top of the high bed , and her cloaths torne off her back , and a piece of her skin torn away , the candle in the room standing on a table , was thrown downe , and put out ; at which time , there being a little boy that was almost asleep , but with this noyse being frighted , had not power , with the rest , to goe out of the room , stayed there , and saw a spirit in the likenesse of a great black man , with no head , in the room scuffling with the maid , and took her and set her into a chair , and told her that shee must goe with him , he was come for her soul , she had given it to him : but the maid answered , that her soul was none of her owne to give , and he had already got her blood , but as for her soul he should never have ; and after a while tumbling and throwing about of the maid , it vanished away . it came into some of our thoughts that were afrighted out of the maids chamber , to goe into the witches room to see whether she was asleep , and when they came , they found her running about the room with her cloaths off , and her iron fetters about her legs , and asked her what was the reason shee was not in her bed asleep at this time of the night , and why she run about the room ? the witch answered , i cannot keep my bed , nor lie in it at quiet , but am pulled forth by violence . they asked her the reason why ? she replyed , pray what is the matter in your chamber : who being not willing to discover the truth said , nothing , but a childe is not wel , that we are troubled with . the witch replyed , do you not lie to me ? for i know what is the matter as well as your selves . the witch sate then down by her bed side , and there cursing and banning the people , they left her , and went again to the maid , where they stayed all that night , holding the maid from mischieving her self in her fits . that the witch might yet more evidently be discovered , melier damer , alice cleverly , grace stockes , and other women , searched the witch in the gaol , and they delivered on their oaths at the assises , that they found on her shoulder a certain mark or teat , about the length and bignesse of the niple of a womans breast , and hollow and soft as a niple , with a hole on the top of it : and searching further , they likewise found in her secret place another teat , soft , and like the former on her shoulder : and afterward , when the witch was on her tryall , as the women were giving in this their evidence , they were ordered to look on that teat again on her shoulder , as she stood at the bar , who did , and they then said , that the teat was more dryer then , and something lesse then it was before , and did seem not to be so freshly pulled and sucked as before . after which time , i coming to the prison , went to the maid , who was at the present under some inward conflict and horror of conscience , who complained very much of her damnable condition , and said , there was now no hope of her salvation , for the devill was returned again to her , and had got faster hold of her then ever ; and also said , my hope is now quite gone , in vain is it for me to expect salvation : how can god save me ? i know he cannot , and the worst is , he will not ; and it cannot be long before the devill will tear me in pieces . i then told her the occasion of her present trouble might be in giving way to some suggestions of satan . she replyed , i doe as little as i can : but he tels ' me i shall neer be at quiet , untill i get my name blotted out of the red book , that the witch made me set , when i sealed with my blood to be a slave all the dayes of my life to lucifer ; and if i could have that peece of silver i had at that time given me , to give again to the devill , i should then be at rest : but after a while i perswaded her not to harbour any such fancies within her , for that they were the meer suggestions of satan ; which she was at last brought to beleeve : she in a short time after began to fall into her former fits , but not so violent as the former were : but after it was over , i asked the maid whether she was willing the witch should be brought into her chamber , ( knowing that the other time it was a means of her ease ) to which she would not consent for some time : at last i perswaded her to let her come and they should talk together . then i went to the witch to bring her ; and when i came to her , she pretended she did not remember me ; for i heard she was prejudiced against me at this second coming ; for that some had perswaded her that i did but ensnare her , and did what i could onely to discover her ; so that i could not without much perswasion cause her to own any acquaintance with me . i asked her how she did ? who replyed , very naught , not well ; and the maid and i had undone her , for shee should be hanged : i perswaded her to goe to the maid , and talk with her : but she replyed , ah whore ! ah rascall ! i will see her in hell first , i will never see her more , she hath undone me , by raising these reports of mee that am an honest woman ; 't will break my husbands heart , he grieves to see me in these irons : i did once live in good fashion , and did not lie as now i doe ; i am sick in my stomach , i am tormented that i cannot sleep at night , and am almost torne in pieces ; and being not well , i will not goe forth without the dore this day . i seeing i could not perswade her , went to the maid , and perswaded her to come into the presence of the witch ; and after many entreaties i perswaded her to go to her , which she did : but being come into the room , with multitudes of people pressing in along with her ; ( the witch was in a very spacious upper room , that was capacious enough to hold people ) so soon as ever the witch saw the maid , she ran skrieking and crying out from the maid to the further side of the room , where a bed stood , and fell down , she fell on her knees , and went to creep under the bed , but the people pull'd her out again , whereupon she cryed out exceedingly , that there was not any talking to her ; maliciously-cursing those that held her , striking them with her stick , and scratching and biting them , making a most hideous noyse ; words cannot expresse the manner of it ; crying out , have out of my sight this devillish maid , i shall be torne in pieces . i went to perswade her to be quiet , telling her , none shall doe her any harm . she answered , oh! the devill will tear me if i see her : and constantly she kept crying out and roaring . i thought that in half an hour shee would be tyred out , making such a noyse , and then shee must of necessity be silent : but all the while the maid was there , she kept such a roaring and hideous noyse , which was almost an hour : now the maid looking on her , seeing her in such a torment , was at ease ; and the maids ease was her trouble . i being in the presence of the witch this while , had it come into my thoughts , that mr. holland mr. tucker's clerk , had told me the morning before , that he being a day or two before in the prison with others , in company with the witch , he saw about her neck a green silk string , with something tyed at the end of it , like a little bag , hanging down her stomach : hee asked her , what was that about her neck ? she replyed , it was a thing that she could doe many things with ; and if he would give her but half a dozen of ale , shee would make a toad spring out of it : the remembrance of which , caused me to observe if i could see any such thing about her neck , which i did ; i then desired a gentleman that stood by me to endevour the secret getting it away from her ; and to that end some kept a great disturbance , pulling about her : which while they were so doing , the gentleman got away the bag and string about her neck ; which she felt gone immediately : she then roared and cryed out much more then before ; saying , now shee was undone , her jewell was taken from her , her life was lost ; now there was no hope but that she should be hanged . but seeing there was no remedy , or possibility of pacifying her , we all left her in her rage , and the maid went again to her own chamber ; so her being in the presence of the witch , was a second time of freeing her from her torments . we then went and opened the bag so taken away , that hung to the string about her neck : it was a little silk bag , in which there was some powder and pieces of white paper , with severall sorts of seeds in them ; probably such a charm as she did often use : and for the powder , both my self and those that were physitians that saw it , could not otherwise judge of it , but that it was some sympatheticall powder , that should have caused such evidence that came in against her , not to have testifyed any thing prejudicial to her : and probably it might be such a powder , in regard of her trouble of losing it . and magicians write much of the nature of an herb called anacrampferos , and the hearb sowbread will work love and affection in any party whose good will and love they desire to obtain ; and this foolish conceit without doubt she had , to think that the wearing such a powder about her neck would have wrought such a love in the judge and jury , that the one should not have found her guilty , nor the other condemned her . but in this , as wel as in the rest , the devil deceived her : for the assises being held at sarum for the county of wilts , the witch was there arraigned on three several bils of indictment touching her compact and practise of witchcraft ; and found guilty on all three , and sentence passed on her most justly for such practises , by the lord chief baron wilde , then judge of life and death at that assises . after that sentence was passed on her , she was brought from the court to the prison again ; but never valued it , or was much troubled that she was to die . in the evening after her condemnation , mr. langley a grocer of sarum , with others came to the prison to her , and entring into discourse with her , she began to rail against me , and said i had betrayed her and wronged her , and they ( to please her ) spoke against me : likewise , she hearing that , began to be familiar with mr. langley , and told him that she lived with dr. lambe , and he taught her to raise spirits , and she told him how people came to learn it : if those that have a desire to it , doe read in books , and when they come to read further then they can understand , then the devil will appear to them , and shew them what they would know ; and they doing what he would have them , they may learn to doe what they desired to do , and he would teach them : and further she did in generall terms confesse to him , that she did what the maid had told of her , and did likewise promise him her books , but because i did prosecute her , and informed the judge what she told me , she would not teach me any thing ; but because ( as she said ) mr. langley seemed to be a good honest man , she would let him have her books , and teach him her art . i went from sarum to dorchester after the judges to the assises , and after i had accomplished my businesse i had there i returned to sarum again , to speak with her , and to see her executed : she hearing i came from the judges , and some persons informing her ( though without cause ) i had endevoured for a repreive for her , she was willing to speak with me . the morning before she was to be executed , i went to her ; and when i came there , there was onely with her ( the dore being shut ) mr. foster a minister , who comforted her up to bear death christianly , boldly , and chearfully ; and after he had brought her to that pitch as to promise him she would goe a true penitent to her place of execution , and to die as a lamb , he then kneeled down , and read over to her much of the book of common-prayer , and she repeated it after him : i being at the dore , when he had done , spoke to him to propound some questions , which i told him were very requisite should be discovered : he did goe and say something to her , then returned to me , and told me that she would say nothing to it , and that it was not fit she should now be troubled , but to be left to her devotion ; he also told me that she denyed the things she was condemned for , and that she wrongfully suffered death , and did lament extremely , and desired to die quietly : i replyed to him , god would have more honour by her confession of other witches , then she can have comfort by a few prayers , and a little smoothing up at last . i was resolved to put it home to her , and make her confesse what i could of her practise , and whom shee knew that practised such art ; though what she said would not be enough to convict any , yet it would he enough to suspect and examine them . he replyed , he was very willing truth should be discovered , and so went away . i then told her that this morning was to be the time of her execution , and there was no hope of any reprieve , but die she must ; if any thing moved the judge to mercy , it would be her confessing her faults , and to say truth , and to confesse other witches , and to tell what things they had done , that they might be convicted : she answered me , if i must die this morning , i care not ; and swore three times one after another , by the name of god , she was prepared to die : and for confessing she said she would never say that the maid told truth , but the maid belyed her , and the devil would torment her for it ; and as she had dealt with her , she said , she prayed to god that he would deal with her ; and for her part , she would never forgive the maid the wrong she had done her : and further said , that before she had been put to this shame , she would have given forty pounds for the saving her life ; but now she would not live if she should , but was resolved to be hanged , and her earnest desire was that she might be buryed under the gallows : and she said , she had made her will , and given legacies to many of her friends . but i told her , her husband might choose whether he would let them have them : she replyed , if he doe not , the devill shall never let him be quiet . she also said she had writ a letter , and put it into her pocket , which was to her husband , that he should never live in his own house more ; and that her will was to goe directly to the gallows , and there be hanged , and then brought back into her owne house , and there to be shrowded , and then to be carryed back to the gallows , and there buryed . her will was also , that the women that shrowded her should goe into her garden , and gather up all her herbs , spoyl all her flowers , and tear up the roots . she also was very desirous for drink , and had not mr. undersheriffs prudence been such as to restrain her from it , she would have died drunk : she said , she would not have any psalm sung , or any prayers for her at the gallows ; but she would have a psalm sung at the gaol , and immediately she her self began to sing . i also asked her who she knew to be witches ? she said , she knew none but withers , that lived by rumsey in hampshire , he did use to make charms for her ; and he did help the woman that was owner of the brick kill by sarum to a spell , and she did frequent him for a while ; and he could do the most tricks of any one she knew : shee did also name one or two more that she said was able to do many such things as she could . i asked her , whether she had any ground or testimny that repentance was wrought in her ? she replyed , i hope for all this to be saved by my saviour the lord jesus christ : and i defie the devill ; and i am wronged and abused , and so these rogues and rascals shall all know , for all this yet ; and then she swore an oath , i that they should . she then would make a shew of sorrow , complaining , i have not been in bed these three nights , but have been abused , and the maids that were with me last night stole the money out of my purse , that i had there to pay for my supper , and to buy me some drink ; and then she would make a noyse as if she wept ; that i my self , and i also desired others to observe , but she was never seen to let fall a tear ; but yet many times she would make such an artificiall noyse , that one would have thought she wept : and in such discourse she spent the morning : and if any did bid her pray , she would swear at them , and revile them . mr. under-sheriff coming into the prison to her , told her , she must goe along with him to the place of execution . she replyed , be you ready , i am ready , in a jolly manner , and forth she went : but before mr. undersheriff came in , i had so perswaded her , that when she came to the place of execution , she would confesse every thing ; and in regard she should not be able to speak loud enough , she desired me to stand by her , and she would tell it unto me , and i should speak it out to all the people : which i told her i would : and she said , she would then tell every thing , and keep nothing secret . afterwards she fell into a rage , and wished for a knife , she said she would run it into her heart-blood : being replyed unto by some , oh mris. boddenham you would not offer to doe such wickednesse , would you ? she swore by the name of god , but she would , had she a knife . she then went forth to the place of her execution , where a numerous company were spectators ; and as she went along towards the gallows , by every house she went by , she went with a smal piece of silver in her hand , calling for beer , and was very passionate when denyed ; one of the men that guarded her on the way , told her that mr. sheriff would not let her be buryed under the gallows , upon which she railed at the man extremely that told her so , and said , she would be buryed there . when she came to the place of execution , she went immediately to goe up the ladder , but she was pulled back again and restrained : i then pressed her to confesse what she promised me she would , now before she dyed , but she refused to say any thing . being asked whether she desired the prayers of any of the people , she answered , she had as many prayers already as she intended , and desired to have , but cursed those that detained her from her death , and was importunate to goe up the ladder , but was restrained for a while , to see whether she would confesse any thing , but would not : they then let her goe up the ladder , and when the rope was about her neck , she went to turn her self off , but the executioner stayed her , and desired her to forgive him : she replyed , forgive thee ? a pox on thee , turn me off ; which were the last words she spake : she was never heard all the while she was at the place of execution to pray one word , or desire any others to pray for her , but the contrary . thus you have her wicked life , her wofull death . those that forsake god in their lives , shall be forsaken of him in their deaths . a postscript . history often speaks , and common observation assures us , that bees gather excellent honey out of the bitterest herbs : so , were we wise , we might make good use of this foregoing relation : wherein we may consider how the devill gulls and deceives the souls of the sons of men , he ( without doubt ) to bring them into such an unhappy league with himself , promiseth them to be no inferiors to the greatest in the world . to the poor hee promiseth food ; to the sick , health ; to the irefull , to be revenged ; to the curious , knowledge ; to the ambitious , honour ; and the satisfying lusts to the lustfull : he makes large promises when he means no such thing : could ever any man at the last say he was a gainer by his contract with satan ? indeed he promised adam fair , but the conclusion was a turning out of paradise ; he promised sodome fair , but the conclusion was burning : and how many can our experience testifie of , that ( without doubt ) after their league with him , built many castles of hope in the air of their thoughts , of their future happynesse ; but what a sad end have they came unto ! how many hanged and burned ! and when they need most protection from the devil , they have been most disappointed by him : shall any therefore wilfully be deceived by his allurements ? suppose the best , that such a shamefull end shall not betyde them : yet is there any happynesse or any good to be found in the devils service ? can he procure lost goods , can he restore decayed health , can he satisfie a proud heart , can he content the ambitious minde , can he satisfie a fleshly lust , can he bestow on thee and let thee really enjoy all the glory of the world ; yet he cannot save thee from death : can he prolong thy life in the land of the living , he cannot create comfort to thee in the day of gods wrath : what will you then doe ? indeed your lusts perhaps by him have been satisfied , your health by him recovered , your lost goods by him restored , your ambitious minde something for a while quieted : but all this while your soul is not saved . consider how god himself pities thee : what will you doe , saith the lord in the day of my wrath ? intombing your souls in the world will not shelter you , nor your agreement with hell and death cannot relieve you : besides , what outward , temporall , forenamed accommodations you have by him , as health , wealth , and the like ; you give a dearer rate then the most chargeable physician in the world would or possibly could demand of you for the restauration ofyour lost health ; and it is much sweeter , easier , and lesse charge , to goe so long a voyage as to the indies , and there dig for gold and silver , accounting all its difficulties , then to have it of the devils sending or bringing it to us . in this sad foregoing relation , thou hast the great and glorious attributes of gods justice and just judgement , and of his rich mercy and free grace . to demonstrate the last first : friendly reader , thou hadst in this narration the torments of a poor maid , so fully expressed , that in the reading thereof thou mayst take notice of the goodnesse of god in her support ; sure i am , no naturall strength could have subsisted under such violent and strong racks , tortures and pangs as did seise on her for almost five weeks : besides , a maid so poorly principled as she was ; for as she could not read , so shee could not answer , neither did she know , but was altogether ignorant of the fundamentall grounds of religion ; and besides , lived profanely , yet in the extremity of her condition , and in the lowest ebbe of her sorrows , there was a ground of hope , and expressed by her self in such terms as these : being asked whether she gave way to the devill , in yeelding to any thing that he suggested into her thoughts and minde : she answered , no : indeed ( saith she ) the devill now appears to me from the top of the house in a fearfull shape , with flaming eyes , and calls to me to come away : but i tell him , i cannot , i am held , and glad i am that i am held , else i am afraid i should be carryed away by force . and at any time , when she had a little ease from the violent hurryings of her body , she was desirous to discourse , and said , she would not keep the devils counsel ; the devil ( saith she ) claims his promise , and would have me away , for i have given him my soul : but , saith she , i know my soul is none of mine own to give , christ hath bought it , and his it is , & none of my mine ; and though i did so wickedly as to promise it him through the perswasions of a witch , which i am heartily sorry for , yet i have not my soul in my own custody to dispose of as i will ; and this ( saith she ) i tell him , but it will not satisfie him . what ever questions she was asked against her self between her fits , when she was able to speak , she would freely relate it , though never so much against her self ; replying , i have deserved death and hell a thousand times over , and if god shew me mercy , sure i doe not deserve it , yet i hope god will : i finde ( saith she ) that the devill is within me , he is got into my stomach , and there he lies , and hath broken all my bones , yet i hope to be saved at last ; i know god is mercifull , the devill had else torne my body in pieces , he hath tryed what he can , but god hath yet kept me , and i beleeve he will still for all the devill and this wicked base woman : and further she said , i heartily desire the prayers of the ministers and all good people , i doe desire it surely with my whole soul , for though i am a sinfull wretch , yet sure i doe beleeve god will hear their prayers for me . and many other expressions she used , which are set down in the former narration . i onely relate these here , to shew the divine support she had in her distresse . and reader , hadst thou seen the strength of her spirit , and of her minde in giving in her evidence , thou wouldst have beleeved she spoke truth : and i think there are none of an unprejudicate opinion , but did beleeve what she then said : she sometimes in her accusation , or rather in her evidence , accused her owne obnoxiousnesse , and how guilty she her self was of death and hell : and after sentence was passed on the witch , i came to the maid , and asked her whether she was willing the witch should be reprieved ? she replyed , with all my heart , and glad i should be if any body could prevail for her reprieve ; and i doe wish some body or other would try , if they did think they should not sin in so doing : she then at the same time wept exceedingly , and complaining , oh my madnesse and my folly ! oh wicked creature that i am , that ever i should sin against so good a god , that hath been so mercifull to me in my torments ! surely the devill in one of those long nights would have carryed me away , had not god been mercifull to me : how hath christ preserved me ! did i ever deserve svch mercy ? sure i did not ; and it will be my sorrow so long as i live , should i sin against so loving a christ , and give away my soul from so good a god , and all by the perswafions of so base a woman : how can i forget this ? surely i shall never forget it as long as i live : i am resolved to serve such a god as this is , i will not count any thing too hard to doe for him that would have mercy upon me , that had given my soul to the devil . i am not yet too old to learn , i will learn to read , sure , if god will be pleased that i shall , though i break my sleeping time to learn ; and i will , if possibly i can , get into some good ministers house or service , because i would not have any let from living a holy life : i wil learn the knowledge of religion , that i may serve god , since i have done so much to his dishonour . i am this day to go away home , i hope now to begin a holy life : and many more gracious expressions she used , that those that were present can testifie as well as my self . all which she spoke weeping bitterly : and longer discourse i had had with her , but by reason of her much weeping , she had not freedome of speech . i relate not here any fancy , but a reall truth , and i beleeve all my own actions are under diviue observation , and i should much offend , if i should under pretence of relating truth , do otherwise ; and truly i doubt not but all these transactions and providences , are but the fore-runners of her day of conversion , and god usually , or at least sometimes , makes use of a wilderness condition to be a passage into canaar . o how many souls hath god in heaven , that have had their passage thither by hels gate ? manasses prison was a means to break off his league with familiar spirits , so may i say , a prison was the place , where god in mercy visited this poor maid , and did there disthrone satan , and gave her freedom of spirit and liberty of body in one day ; and i make no doubt but the same god , that hath brought to the birth , and i beleeve brought forth , will not suffer to be despised the day of small things , but will make her a monument to his own praise , and although jacob is but small , yet he shall arise . i come to the period of my narration , and shall close up all with a word or two of the discovery of gods judgement , and justice on the witch . i need not reiterate what formerly hath been said , i have shewed something of her miserable life , and of her wofull death , but nothing in respect of what might be said ; i have only spoken of her practice concerning this maid , but at her tryal there were many other things brought in against her , and there was at the least eight witnesses that gave in their accusations against her on oath , and it was not solely this business that she was condemned for , but many other passages were brought in against her , of many of her vile and abominable practices , which would take up too much time to insert ; but here is enough already said sufficiently to evidence unto the world how vile and wicked she was ; and notwithstanding this her miserable condition ( to the apprehension of all spectators ) she desired nothing more than her end ; thus the devil makes such people willing slaves to himself , and notwithstanding she came to such misery and sad condition , by reason of her wicked practices , yet she would keep the devils councel to the last , and would not discover others in league with her self , although she saw the issue of the practitioners by her self , neither would she forewarn spectators of the like practice ; we may see much of the justice of god herein , that those that will rebelliously harden their hearts against god , shall be judicially hardned by him ; all judgements cannot break the heart , or humble the sinner , if god soften it not ; outward miseries may break the back , not of themselves melt the heart ; all the torments the devils indure cannot bring down their pride , but they remain still proud , though in hell . what a madness rests in the sons of men , to think they can repent when theywill ? i am confident this witch could not shed one penitential tear , though thereby she might have been reprieved from death . 't is dangerous to follow that trade will harden the heart , and 't is usual that those that are so besotted and hardned , as to sin under daily mercies , are in time so hardned , that the worst of judgements and torments cannot mollifie them . this narration was penned to reclame poor people from running after such persons , for the restauration of lost health , or recovery of stollen goods , they may read the issue thereof by this maid , she can and doth speak forth , both by word of mouth , and also by her sufferings she lay under , the misery of such as resort to them ; thou hast heard before how low she was brought , into as sad an estate as poor creature could be brought , and live , both in respect of her bodily torments and inward condition . i have not related every particular word she spake of her condition , neither indeed can i remember them all , but one time she was brought so low with her pain , being in a trance , that when she came to her self , she said to a god●y minister of the city of sa●um then with her , that she was just then falling into hell , and the devil was too strong for her , do what she could for her life , and was carrying her by might and force to hell , and she had irrecoverably been thrown in , had not one little twig ( or stick ) held and stayed her , she had no refuge in the world but that twig , and no support by any , or assistance from any , but that twig , which was the greatest comfort to her she ever met with in all her sorrows , that such a seasonable support should come to her , when she was as she apprehended swallowed in at hels mouth . here see a poor creature , as to its own apprehension , could not lye under greater misery , why then should the devil prevail with any , thus to treasure up to themselves sorrow ? besides the condition of the maid , the witch her self infinitely more bespeaks all not to follow after , or practice such wicked arts . who would willingly have lived her life ? but who then would dye her death ? she had sorrows enough entayled to her practice here , while she lived , but infinitely more now dead ; 't is no indifferent thing , such a practice , but without infinite mercy 't is damnation to the followers of it , and very few are reclamed from it , but as they live , usually they dye . and my friendly reader , not to detein thee from thy more serious imployment any longer , i say , thou hast this relation , truly and faithfully related unto thee ; for what good or advantage would it be to me , to give a false relation of the same ? which if i should , many hundred spectators can disprove me ; but my own heart knows , and all observers can testifie , that the foregoing history , is the birth and true issues of the life and death of the witch ; neither hast thou it penned or illustrated with counterfeit colours of curious language , for i know it matters not what speech we use in telling truth , and i obliged my self in my undertakings to use the same words and expressions as both the witch and maid used , and have not made them speak my words in this relation . it is expected by some , having been urged thereto , to annex to this narration , a word or two concerning the practice of witches , their nature and compact , how they may be discovered , and wherein there power consists ; what power witches have over others , more than any other person , and how they came by their power , and that the practice of this witch , is the way and common practice of such as make compacts with devils ; but those to whom my self am known , do also know , that i have other publike employment , to exercise my pen , and head about , than such a work as this ; but providence casting me on the afore-related business , i could not bury what i knew of it in oblivion , knowing that my self knew the passages in general , aswel as any , and i know none that would take the task to publish it but my self , and i could not ( being solicited by many justices of the peace , that were at the bench and heard the tryal , and other men of eminent worth ) wave i● ; but for clearing any objections in writing , that partial readers might raise on the same , i think it a work needless ; but for the narration , if any notwithstanding what hath been said doubt the truth of it , if it be any living in the western circuit , master clark of the assises , or any of 〈◊〉 clarks or servants , can fully satisfy them the truth of it , and also the truth of it will be made manifest by eminent persons to be beleeved to every clark of assizes of every circuit in england , and they will be able throughout , their whole circuits to satisfy the truth of it to any that are dubious as to the belief thereof . and now friendly reader , having given thee as brief a narration of the judicial proceeding against this witch , as possibly i could , i beg thy candid peru●al thereof , and such an observation of the passages therein , as they call for from thee . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- she named mrs. boddenham , but i name her witch for distinction sake . under the name of mrs. boddenham . the tryal of william staley, goldsmith for speaking treasonable words against his most sacred majesty and upon full evidence found guilty of high treason : and received sentence accordingly, on thursday, november the th, . staley, william, d. , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : , : ) the tryal of william staley, goldsmith for speaking treasonable words against his most sacred majesty and upon full evidence found guilty of high treason : and received sentence accordingly, on thursday, november the th, . staley, william, d. , defendant. p. printed for robert pawlet ..., london : . item at : identified on reel as t b. reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (treason) -- england. popish plot, . great britain -- history -- charles ii, - -- sources. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - derek lee sampled and proofread - derek lee text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of william staley , goldsmith ; for speaking treasonable words against his most sacred majesty : and upon full evidence found guilty of high treason and received sentence accordingly , on thursday november the th . . london , printed for robert pawlet at the bible in chancery-lane near fleetstreet . . november . . i do appoint robert pawlet to print the tryal of william staley : and that no other presume to print the same . william scroggs . the tryal of william staley , goldsmith ; for treasonable words . upon which he was condemned for high treason , nov. . . mr. staley being accused of high treason , was on the th day of november . brought from newgate , and arraigned at the kings bench bar , and the next day was brought to the same place to receive his tryal ; where being come , and the jury impannelled , the court told the prisoner , that if he would challenge any of the jury , he must speak unto them as they came to the book to be sworn , and before they were sworn ; the prisoner challenging none , the jury were sworn , viz , jury . sir phillip matthews . sir reginald foster . sir john kirke . sir john cutler . sir richard blake . john bifield , esquire . simon middleton , esquire thomas cross , esquire . henry johnson , esquire . charles vmfrevile , esquire . thomas eaglesfield , esquire . william bohee , esquire . the indictment read. you stand indicted by the name of william staley , &c. cryer . if any can give evidence on the behalf of our sovereign lord the king , against william staley , let him come forth and he shall be heard . sir creswel levins . the prisoner stands indicted as not having the fear of god before his eyes , being led by the instigation of the devil , not minding his allegiance , but traiterously endeavouring the death and destruction of our sovereign lord the king , he did on november the th , in the thirtieth year of the king , falsly , wickedly , , and traiterously compass , imagine , devise and invent the killing the king ; that he did maliciously contrive ( i say ) the death of our lord the king of england . to this he hath pleaded not guilty . you are to try whether he be guilty or not . kings serjeant , maynard . the offence is as great as can be , and will be prov'd as clear as can be . call the witnesses to prove the offence . attorn . gen. it would be fitting before we enter upon the evidence , to give some account , why ( among so many offenders , some of them of greater quality than william staley ) we chose first to bring this man to tryal . it is not unknown to any man that lives in england , what a discovery there hath been of horrid and damnable designs against the king's person , and the protestant religion . there are a sort of men in the world , that endeavour what they can to cry down this discovery , as that it was altogether suppositious , and a fable . it is true , some are so charitable as to think the roman catholicks in england might endeavour to promote the roman catholick religion , but that they should have a design against the kings person is a fiction . but they shall be convinced by the tryal of this man , that there was such a design , seeing the prisoner even since the discovery of this devilish plot , and after so many have been imprisoned for it , doth persist in a treasonable mind , and a trayterous attempt against the king's person ; the clear evidence of which , is his speaking those words with which in the indictment he is charged . this prisoner by religion is a roman catholick , he calls himself so ; in plain english he is a papist : and finding that since this plot was discovered , his trading decay'd , ( being one that was a banker for the catholicks ) he grew enraged that their money was called so fast for , and being in the company of one fromante a foreigner , at a cook 's shop , he takes notice of the discovery of the plot , ( being a very great well-wisher to it ) and enters into a great passion , and spake these words of the king : that he was a great heretick , and the greatest rogue in the world ; then holding up his hand , he clapt it upon his heart , and said , i would with this hand kill him my self . these words were heard by two gentlemen that were present , but spoken in french. william carstaires , a witness . attorn . gen. acquaint the court and jury what you know of any words spoken by the prisoner about killing the king. witness . so far as i know or can give an account , it was about eleven of the clock in the day , on the fourteenth day of this month ; he call'd for a pot of ale , and a slice of rost beef , which when it was called for , his landlord said it should be brought him : there was another frenchman with staley , a stranger to me : they discoursed together in french , and staley then said twice over , the king was a grand heretick , making this demonstration , with his hand upon his breast , and stampt five or six times with his foot in great fury . the old man bartholomew fromante , his friend , said , that the king of england was a tormentor of the people of god , and he answered again , the king of england , and repeated it again in a great fury , the king of england is a great heretick and the greatest rogue in the world ; there 's the heart , ( striking his hand on his breast ) and here 's the hand that would kill him my self , and he said further , the king and parliament think all is over , but the rogues are mistaken . lord chief just . did you know staley ? witness . no my lord , i had never seen him before . l. chief just . what did you do upon this ? witness . i did not know what to do , being ignorant of the laws of the country , i thought it was a great matter , and being sensible that staley was gone out , i caused one to attend him , and came to his fathers shop , and looked up and down , and the next day i apprehended him . l. chief just . are you sure ( looking upon the prisoner ) that was the man ? witness . yes . l. chief . just . did you see him when he spake the words ? witness . yes i saw him ; there was no more distance betwixt the two doors , but just as far as that gentleman and me ; his face was strait toward us . l. chief just . were you in the same room ? witness . no , but just over against it ; the doors were open . l. chief just . how near were you to him ? witness . seven or eight foot from the place where i was and where he was . he was standing at one door , and i at the other . in french the words were spoken , he making a demonstration , stamping with his foot , i would kill him my self , ( which the prisoner would have evaded by saying , the words signifie , i would kill my self . the prisoner farther said , that the king and parliament thought all was over , but the rogues were beguiled and deceived . alexander sutherland witness . mr. sutherland , tell what you heard the prisoner at the bar say , were you there ? witness . yes . l. chief . just . which was nearest to him , he or you ? witness . he was nearest to him , and i just by the gentleman . he said afterwards , when a word or two past betwixt them . the old man said , that the king of england , was a tormentor of the people of god : the prisoner answered , the king of england , and repeated it again with a great fury , the king of england is the greatest heretick and the greatest rogue in the world there 's the heart , ( striking his hand on his breast ) and here 's the hand that would kill him my self ; and the king and parliament thinks their business is over , but the rogues are mistaken . pris . i said ( replyed the prisoner ) i would kill my self . l. chief just . would you kill your self because you said the king was a heretick ? you acknowledge your self to be a roman catholick . pris . and in that faith i intend to dye . attorn . gen. here the prisoner doth not deny but he said the king of england was a great heretick ; and can we imagine him to be for that reason in such a passion that he would therefore kill himself ? whether that be a natural conclusion from such premises , i must submit to any impartial hearer . l. chief just . did you see mr. staley perfectly , was the door open ? witness . i saw him perfectly . l. chief just . did you know him before ? witness . i never saw his face before . l. chief just . did you write the words presently ? witness . i writ them down presently , as god shall be my witness . l. chief just . look upon the writing , is it your hand ? witness . it is ; and it was writren the fourteenth of november . . about eleven a clock they came to the black lyon in kings-street , and call'd for a quart of ale , and a slice of rost beef , and it was answered , it should presently be had . william staley said , having struck on his breast , and stamping with his foot five or six times , i my self would do it . l. chief just . did you write all that is in the paper at that time ? witness . i writ the words in french as i heard them from him , then formed it as to the person and time afterwards when i was gone . l. chief just . who told you it was staley the goldsmith ? witness . we asked the man of the house ; and we found he went to his fathers house in covent garden ; we asked his fathers name , and his name ; and that 's the very man l. chief just . he confesseth he was in this place at that time with the old man. he acknowledged that he spake some words , but denied he spake those : that he was the man , he doth not deny . attorn . gen. the third man is a gentleman that doth not understand the french tongue , he was in the company of these two men at that time ; we do not call him to prove the words , because he doth not understand the language , but to prove what followed . l. ch. just . there is no mistake of the person , the prisoner doth not deny he was there . call the third person to know what he hath to say . phillip garret , third witness . wit. all that i can say is this ; my captain william castaries came to me in a great passion , and said , i cannot suffer this , i will run upon him , i cannot be quiet . l. chief just . what are those things he charged upon him ? witness . that he would kill the king himself : it is impossible to suffer it , i will run out for a constable presently , this cannot be suffered . i went to enquire for his name ; the answer was , he was a goldsmith , and that his name was staley . that 's the very man ( looking upon him ) i saw there , and heard him speak . l. chief just . what were the first words ? witness . [ the french words were spoken twice , [ in english thus ] the king was a grand heretick [ french again ] here 's the hand , here 's the heart , i would kill him my self . l. chief just . what can you say to this ? prisoner . my lord , the matter of fact hapned thus : this gentleman , mr. sutherland , comes over to me in the morning when i was in the shop , and said , sir , i would have a red button like this , i said i had none of that nature , you had better go to the exchange . i would have one of a true stone ; you must ( i reply'd go to the jewellers , i have none of these . upon that i dismist him ; he went over , and presently comes in a quarter of an hour after , and tells me that an honourable person would speak with me : i went over ; this gentleman makes a great many ceremonies to me , and reads me this paper ; he tells me you see what the gentleman reads , i would advise you to look to it , then taking me aside by the window . i said , i do not understand you , i am innocent , you must not put any bubble upon me ; with that the captain runs out in a fury , and fetcheth a constable , and carrieth me to the gate-house . i was in my shop the day before , which very day i did intend to go out with a friend into the country , and prepared my self accordingly ; and mr. fromante , the old man that was the friend of mine , comes , saying to me , the constable would have something , i know not what it is , come and assist me ; i went to the place , the constable told me , that i was to appear by ten of the clock ; with that comes the old man out . i owed him a little money , i went and paid him the money which i owed him . i came back , and sate down by the window out of sight , the old man sate at the right hand , so we sat and discoursed as innocently , as i thought , and ( before god ) as ever i spake in my life . l. chief just . what discourse had you ? prisoner . our chief discourse was about the materials of our business , and it was about the king of france his usurpation over his subjects , and the happiness of our little people , the commonalty of england , that was indeed usually our discourse when we met together . l. ch. just . did you say you would kill the king of france ? and that he was a great heretick ? do you believe the king of france is an heretick ? prisoner . i know not what his opinion is , that 's to his own conscience . l. chief . just . did you name the word heretick ? prisoner . not to my knowledge upon my soul , not of the king of england ; we might have discoursed of the happiness and of the difference of their governments . i have been thought a person of some intelligence , and of some understanding in the world , and not to expose my self to speak in a publick large room , the door being open , with so high a voice that these gentlemen being in the next room should hear me in french , and in a street where almost all are frenchmen , to speak these blasphemous words , words that i abhor . i have been a great admirer of my prince . court. read the statute of decimo tertio , &c. l. chief . just . speak the words in english about killing the king , speak them all . witness . that the prisoners companion did say , the king was a tormentor and persecutor of the people of god. the prisoners words were again , the king of england is the greatest heretick , and the greatest rogue in the world ; there 's the heart , and here 's the hand that would kill him ; my self . prisoner . here 's the hand , and here 's the heart which would kill my self : not would kill him my self . l. chief just . what jesuit taught you this trick ? it is like one of them , it is the art and interest of a jesuit so to do . the statute read. l. chief just . have you any thing more to say for your self than what you have already said ? court. sir john kirk , do you understand french ? one of the jury . i do , my lord ; the words have been interpreted all right . l. chief just . let me ask you one question , when you said the king was a great heretick and a rogue , and there 's the heart , and here 's the arm that would kill him my self ; was it not the king you would kill ? prisoner . i have this to say in justification of my self , and allegeance to my prince and king , that i never thought , nor imagined , or contrived any way , but have been a true subject to the king upon all occasions ; i am sorry it proves so , gods will be done , my soul depends upon it ; i am a dying man by the statute , never with intention , or any thought or ill will , spake i any word about this matter . l. chief . just . out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks , the statute hath been read , which hath made it criminal . call a witness for the prisoner . prisoner . the old man to whom i spake is not here , i had so short notice of my tryal , that i could not find him . attor . gen. that old man hath been examined upon oath . the prisoner shall see the examination if he please , he shall have it read , if he will not , i will not press to have it read . ( here the examination being shewn the prisoner , he gave it back to mr. attorny general again , then the prisoner called for a witness who was present in court. one anselm spake . they came to my house , where i live , at the cross-keys in covent garden , about eight a clock in the morning , these two gentlemen , the day they took him away , was the day after these words were spoke , and he was kept prisoner from eight till eleven of the clock without any constable , they had five bottles of wine , and bespake meat , but they did not stay to eat the meat . l. ch. just . how came you to stay so long ? witness . i was two hours in looking for a constable , they would not come with me without a warrant from a justice of peace . l. ch. just . who told you you had best take it up ? prisoner . the middlemost man , the first witness . witness . we were about three long hours , i sent out this gentleman for a constable , in the mean time the prisoners father sent his maid for him to come home , i told him he should not go , if he desired to eat we would eat there . i sent to vvhite-hall and desired a guard , the officer of the guard told the messenger it was the constables part . court. call another witness for the prisoner . vvitness for the prisoner . i have heard him often declare as much loyalty to his prince as any person . one day we fell into a discourse of these affairs , the business of the jesuites , which are a people he did as much condemn as any : for in padua he saw so many cheats , that he forsook the jesuitical religion , and if he knew any of the persons concerned in this plot , he would be the executioner himself , and vvhoever comes to reign aftervvards , they shall never enjoy so much peace as novv ; and i heard him often say , he vvould lose his blood for the king , and heard him speak as loyally as i ever heard any man speak in my life . l. ch. just . that is vvhen he spoke to a protestant . court. have you any thing else to say for your self , or have you any more witnesses , that you would have examined on your behalf ? prisoner . no. lord chief justice his speech . the statute hath been read , which was made since the king came in , for the preservation of his person , and during his life : the parliament thought it reasonable , even to make desperate words to be treason , although there was no other thing but words , that is , such words , as if the thing had been done would be treason , the speaking it is treason . when we come to observe the manner of this speaking , methinks there is no great difficulty to satisfie the jury that they were spoke advisedly and maliciously . they were in a publick house , and by accident heard : they concealed them not a moment , and not from the man that did not understand french. to hear a man say in a great passion , that his king was a heretick , and the greatest rogue in the world , and that he would kill him , to write down the words presently , they slept not upon it , they found out who he was , the next day they came to attach him : they kept him , for what ? till they could get a constable . so that here is nothing doubtful either in the circumstance or substance of his case : so that you cannot have a plainer proof in the world then there is in this . for my own part , when it is in the case of a man's life , i would not have any compliance with the rumors or disorder of times that should be an evidence against him , but would have a verdict depend upon the witnesses , that swear the fact down right upon him . you and we all are sensible of the great difficulties and hazards that is now both against the kings person , and against all protestants , and our religion too , which will hadly maintain it's self , when they have destroyed the men ; but let 'em know , that many thousands will lose their religion with their lives , for we will not be papists , let the jusuits press what they will ( who are the foundations of all this mischief ) in making proselites , by telling them , do what wickedness you will it 's no sin , but we can save you , and if you omit what we command we can damn you . this they will not own when it comes to be an objection and penal upon them , but they will never get the pope of rome to declare he hath not a power to excommunicate what he calls a heretick , king , and if he does , that the subject is not discharged from his obedience , they would do great service to their papist friends , if they could obtain such an edict . they print , preach , dispute , and maintain otherwise , and thereby lead people to their own destruction and the destructions of others . excuse me , if i am a little warm , when perils are so many , their murthers so secret , that we cannot discover the murther of that gentleman , whom we all knew so well ; when things are transacted so closly , and our king in so great danger , and religion at stake . t is better to be warm here than in smithfield . but that the man might have justice done him , he hath had his witnesses , and might have had this old man , if he had named him to mr. richardson : and to shew what fair play he has had , mr. attorny tells you the old man hath been examined upon oath , and offers him the copy of his examination to use , but he thinks not fit to use it for his defence , therefore nothing is smothered the offence you have heard in words plain enough , unless the sence is perverted by jesuitical cunning and equivocation , the best part of their learning and honesty . they swear it expresly , that the king was a heretick and the greatest rogue in the world , and here 's the heart and hand , that he would kill him himself ; and hath and can have no other signification . the statute saith advisedly and maliciously . the manner of speaking , and the words spoke , prove both : when a papist once hath made a man a heretique , there is no scruple to murther him . whoever is not of their perswasion are hereticks , and who ever are hereticks may be murthered , if the pope commands it , for which they may become saints in heaven ; this is that they have practised . if there had been nothing of this in this kingdome , or other parts of the world , it would be a hard thing to impose it upon them , but they ought not to complain , when so many instances are against them . therefore discharge your consciences as you ought to do ; if guilty let him take the reward of his crime , and you shall do well to begin with this man , for perchance it may be a terrour to the rest . vnless they think they can be saved by dying in the roman faith , tho with such pernicious and traiterous words and designes as these are ; let such go to heaven by themselves , i hope , i shall never go to that heaven , where men are made saints for killing kings . william staly , hold up your hand . court. is william staly gulty of the high treason whereof he hath been indicted . jury . guilty . court. what goods , chattels , lands or tenements ? jury . none . l. ch. just . novv you may die a roman catholique , and vvhen you come to die , i doubt you vvill be found a priest too . kings councel . i pray judgement according to the verdict . court. you have been indicted of high treason , you have put your self upon your country , vvhich country have found you guilty , vvhat have you to say for your self , vvherefore the court should not proceed to judgement against you ? prisoner . i have nothing to say . l. chief justice . i pronounce judgement upon you . you are here found guilty by the jury of high treason , for saying you vvould kill the king , vvith other irreverent vvords ; but the matter vvhich makes you a traitor is proved upon you by most apparent evidence . the matter , manner , and all the circumstances of it make it plain , you may harden your heart as much as you vvill , and lift up your eies , but you seem instead of being sorrovvful , to be obstinate , betvveen god and your conscience be it , i have nothing to do vvith it , my duty is to pronounce judgement upon you according to lavv , vvhich is this . the sentence . you shall return to the prison , from thence shall be drawn to the place of execution , where you shall be hanged by the neck , cut down alive , your quarters shall be severed and be disposed of as the king shall think fit , and your bowels burnt , and so the lord have mercy upon your soul. finis . the tryal and condemnation of several notorious malefactors at a sessions of oyer and terminer which began at the sessions house in the old baily with the names of those who received sentence of death, burnt in the hand, transported, and to be whipt, and most remarkably of john sadler who whipt the child to death at racliffe. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and condemnation of several notorious malefactors at a sessions of oyer and terminer which began at the sessions house in the old baily with the names of those who received sentence of death, burnt in the hand, transported, and to be whipt, and most remarkably of john sadler who whipt the child to death at racliffe. england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). p. printed for t. davies, london : . caption title. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by 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or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal and condemnation of several notorious malefactors , at a sessions of oyer and terminer which began at the sessions house in the old baily , with the names of those who received sentence of death , burnt in the hand , transported , and to be whipt . and most remarkably of john sadler , who whipt the child to death at ratcliffe . major theophilus oglethorp was indicted , for the murther of captain john richardson , a gentleman belonging to his majesties guards ; the manner of which , according to the evidence was , that they two on the th . of january last , being at the black posts , near charing-cross , the prisoner began a health to the confusion of all double hearts , who did not declare themselves as they meant , which the deceased interpreting to be meant of him , flew into a violent passion , and gave very gross language , which the major not being longer able to endure , drew , as likewise the captain , but not being suffered to hurt each other , they went from thence to the cross keys tavern , where the heat continued so that the deceased struck the prisoner with his cane , whereupon they left the house , and within three hours after met by clarendine house , where they drew upon each other ▪ and made several passes : and the captain , ' ere any could come up to part them ; was run into the belly and out at the back : and had receiv'd ▪ another wound in his back ▪ of which the next morning he dyed : but the evidence being no wayes able to prove a former grudge or pr●pense malice , the jury found him guilty of manslaughter . john sadler , a bailiffs follower receiv'd his tryal for murdering a girl about years of age , on the th of december last , at ratcliff : which inhuman barbarity was acted , as followeth . he being a lodger or inmate to one lattice wigington , a semptress , who instructed children in that mystery : the deceased , as she pretented , having wronged her of some trivial summ of moneys , and being her apprentice , with whom not long before she had pounds . she got the prisoner to help give her correction , who ty'd up the child by the wrists , and with whip-cords , after he had strip'd her , beat her or hours , still rubbing the wounds with salt : and the woman who was condemn'd the last sessions for the same murder , stop'd her mouth with an handkercher ▪ lest the neighbours should pity her out-cry for the hard cruel usage : in three dayes she dyed : whereupon the prisoner fled : but being taken , upon his tryal , was found guilty of wilful murder . isaac smith was tryed , for that he , in the company of two more , on the th of january . stole eighteen pair of fustian drawers from one richard rider in little saint bartholmews . the proof being plain against him , he was found guilty to the value of d. robert rouse a sailer was indicted for stealing an hundred pieces of eight , being the coin of spain , out of a boat : his plea was that being shipwracked about leagues from shore , the master and thirteen men more putting several baggs of money into the long boat , stood from shore , where , in that confusion this money being left behind , he converted it to his use , but upon demand , made it up , and delivered it again : which not being contradicted by the evidence , he was acquitted . mary naples was indicted for murthering her male infant , but it being proved she had a husband , it was not comprehended in the statute of king james , provided for the preventing lude women from murthering their bastard children , so she was found not guilty . thomas cranvil , mary cranvil , elizabeth hurst , elizabeth stone , were indicted for breaking open the house of richard rawlins , and taking from thence goods , to the value of or pounds . and again indicted for breaking open the house of thomas sims , in the parish of white chappel , of both which robberies , they were all found guilty , except mary cranvil , who was not capable by law to comit any felony in the presence of her husband . john robinson was tryed for opening the chamber of john fountain of lincolns inn esq with pick-locks , in september last , and taking thence silver plates , spoons , and other plate , with some wearing apparel , to the value of l. having sold the plate to a goldsmith , upon his being apprehended he confessed the same , and now upon full evidence was found guilty . william logans , and elizabeth laramore were tryed for stealing dozen of gold and silver buttons , out of a button sellers shop in holbourn ; the manner of the fact was , that they coming to cheapen buttons , whilst the master of the shop was busy , the former of the prisoners conveyed the buttons into his breeches , and departed ; but being pursued , was taken in the black bull inn yard , with them about him ; his plea was , that he was in drink , and that the woman put them into his breeches , but the fellony being plain , he was convicted , alice turburg , vel turnpeny , was tryed for taking a gold chain from off her masters childs neck , valued at l. some of which she sold to a goldsmith , and another part delivered to her mistress , saying she found it in the fire , but the place where she had sold part of it being found , the fact was plain , and she found guilty . samuel smith , living in st. martins lane , was indicted for ravishing one dorothy palmer , a girl about years of age , which according to the evidence of the girl was thus , he being her grandfathers apprentice , who is a harness maker , on the of january last , she going there when all the family except the prisoner were abroad , he got her into a great chair , and forced her , giving to boot the foul disease , which upon search was found upon him , of which the girl complained not of till two days after , when he being apprehended and carried before a magistrate , confessed the fact , but it not being known whether the girl did consent or not , and some other nice point in law , he was found not guilty . john bully , alias edwards , a popish priest , was brought to the bar in order to his tryal , the witness for the king being ready , but upon the reading his indictment , he delivered a special plea ▪ signed by edward saunders , counsellor at law , by which he desired he might stand it , certaining that he had formerly been tryed for the same fact at lancaster , and that he having been then acquitted , had not taken any orders from the see of rome since , and in the summ deny'd that he was a priest , whereupon he was ordered to be continued till next sessions . john baly and tho. mace were tryed for a notorious burglary and fellony by them committed about years since upon the house of peter vakeny in the parish of stepny , where they in the company of one mathes , who now discovered them , set up a ladder to a window , and opening the casement , entred and took from thence about yards of farindines and morenas , to the value of l. to which one of them , viz. the latter pleaded guilty , and the former , upon full evidence where they had sold them to a broker who lived in long lane , was convicted of the fellony and burglary . mary smith was tryed for that she on the of january last came into the house of thomas burt betimes in the morning , and pretending to be a neighbours maid , desired to light a candle , when watching her opportunity , she stole lace and linnen to a considerable value , as likewise another indictment upon the same account for stealing a silver cup : and likewise a third time indicted for stealing a hat by the dexterous way of glimmering , or pretending to light a candle , of all which she was found guilty . r●chard eaton received his tryal , for robbing a ship lying at deptford , and taking thence one sea bed , with rugs , blankets and other furniture , as likewise peuter , and about sixty pounds of raysons ▪ being the goods of thomas daniel , the whole being offered to sale were stopt and he apprehended : he pleaded he bought them at chatham , but not being able to prove it , he was found guilty . john smith being tryed for stealing a cane with a silver head , upon plain prooff , was brought in guilty to the value of d. edward sing , lately a secretary to mother cellter , was brought to the bar , for speaking several seditious words , at the rainbow coffee-house , near temple-bar , and for disparaging the kings evidence , saying there was no popish plot , but a presbyterian plot , and that sir edmondbury godfrey was murthered by the presbyterians , but the evidence not being in readiness , he was deferred for another time . it s said he has a pension of s. a week allowed him to go about to coffee-houses and publick meetings to disparage the discoverers of the plot. dorothy mills , was tryed for stealing several parcels of goods , from her mistris , as linnen , woollen and peuter , and upon prooff of the fact , was found guilty to the value of d. john ariss was tryed for stealing of mares , one in northamptonshire and the other in warwickshire , but the evidence coming home upon him , he confessed the fact and was found guilty . one hugh watson was tryed , for speaking several treasonable expressions , which were as followeth : he coming into a house in old brainford to light his pipe , the woman of the house fell into a discourse with him , telling him he should be a gentleman by his chilliness , to which he answered he was , whereupon she replyed , what one of my lord bellasis gentlemen ? his answer was yes , and had been so ever since april last , at s. d. a week , which he received from a muster-master in the tower ▪ and that there were or in pay , expecting orders every day to fall upon the protestants , and , that he quartered in drury lane : and his captaines name was mews . for this he was apprehended : but upon his tryal , he said , and alledged , he spake but in jest , and for want of other discourse : and feigned himself , as most did believe , half distracted : he was acquitted . there were men , and women received sentence of death : viz. john sadler , will. abot , john baly , thomas mace , roger maden , j. aris and jo. robertson , sarah smith , eliz. stanes , and eliz. hurst . five burnt in the hand , to be transported : and to be whip'd . finis . london , printed for t. davies . . the narrative of the sessions, february . / . with a particular account of the tryal of the notorious coiners, that received sentence for treason: and all other malefactors condemned, burnt in the hand, or to be whipt, and their respective crimes. licensed, february . / . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing n estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the narrative of the sessions, february . / . with a particular account of the tryal of the notorious coiners, that received sentence for treason: and all other malefactors condemned, burnt in the hand, or to be whipt, and their respective crimes. licensed, february . / . england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london). p. printed for l.c., london : / . [ ] reproduction of the original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng crime -- england -- early works to . criminals -- england -- early works to . trials -- england -- early works to . trials (treason) -- early works to . treason -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the narrative of the sessions , february . / . with a particular account of the tryal of the notorious coiners , that received sentence for treason : and all other malefactors condemned , burnt in the hand , or to be whipt , and their respective crimes . licensed , february . / . london : printed for l. c. / . the narrative of the proceedings at the sessions , february . / . this sessions beginning in the old bailey , february , the first person brought to tryal , was an unhappy wench , whom the devil had seduced to endeavour , to cover the filthy sin of fornication , with the scarlet mantle of murder , having made away her own new-born bastard-child , and in a very barbarous manner cut the throat of it so violently , that the head was almost seperated from the body , which being found so exposed in an alley near bishops gate street , and not far from the prisoners dwelling , search was made for all persons lyable to be suspected ; and amongst the rest she charged , who at first denyed that she had had any child , at last confessed that , but not the whole truth : however , on full evidence , nothing necessary here to be related , she was found guilty . as were likewise a man and a woman for a burglary , who broke into a poor womans house in the evening , whilst she was gone to buy candle , and upon her return , were taken in the manner , having removed several goods , but carried none quite away , though narrowly prevented , for the man-prisoner being by profession a porter , was busily preparing for their removal . as for the woman , her husband but the last sessions received the reward of his merits at tyburn . another woman whipt but the last sessions save one , was now convicted for a felony , stealing a parcel of cloths out of an house , but discovered before she had quite secured the booty , and forc'd to drop them in the street , for which she was condemned . a man coming to drink at an ale-house in birchin-lane , made such use of his art to convey away a silver tankerd , but scarce knowing what to do with it when he had it , gets a band-box , and putting the tankard therein , goes to another ale-house in finch-lane , where he was wholly a stranger , and gives the said box to the gentlewoman of the house , to lay up for him till he call'd for it ; who perceiving something in it to rattle , and the box having neither lock nor seal , out of an innocent curiosity took up the lid , where seeing a tankard inscribed , with the name and place of dwelling of her neighbour , she sent for him , and sometime after the prisoner calling for his box , was apprehended , and now burnt in the hand , which he well deserved , if we consider either his wickedness in stealing , or his folly in managing the theft . the same punishment was awarded another man for the like offence of stealing a tankard from an house in woodstreet , with whom was indicted a woman , but she passing for his wife , and so the law favourably supposing what she was concern'd in the fact , to be by coertion of her husband , was acquitted . a young fellow coming to a sempstresses shop , pretended to buy cravats , who shewed him several , and some money he had bidden for two , which she refusing to except , he resolved to have them cheaper , ( though like to prove a dear bargain ) for on a sudden he betakes him to his heels , but she crying out after him , he was quickly seized . in this case , because he had the goods delivered into his hand by the prosecutor to look upon , some scruple was raised , whether the running away with them afterwards , was felony ; so that the jury found the matter specially , and 't is left to be determined by the judges . a bold woman , that had lately been servant to a gentleman of quality , having purloined a considerable quantity of his plate , and being thereof fairly convicted , was sentenc'd to dye . in the afternoon , on wednesday , a lad belonging to a ship , called the laurence and mary , lying below wapping-dock , was tryed for killing one tho. young on board another ship , called the advance , lying hard by the former . the prisoner was trying his skill in shooting at the cat-head of his own ship as a mark ; but the bullet glancing thereon , flew to the other ship , and through the boards of the great cabbin , and there unhappily killed the said young , who was casually come on board to see the ship , hitting him in the forehead , that he presently died ; whereupon they that were with him running out on the deck , and enquiring who fired that piece , the prisoner own'd it , and presently came on board of his own accord ; declaring both then , and now at the bar , his hearty sorrow for the mischance : for as he had no malice , so could he not ever see the person dead , or those that were with him , because they were in the cabbin as aforesaid . however , it being adjudged an unlawful act in him to shoot so negligently on the river , where so many vessels and people are continually passing , he was found guilty of manslaughter , and carries a memorandum in his hand , to make him and others more wary for the future . the next was a base and horrid cause , horrid in the pretensions , and a sin not to be named amongst christians ; and base in the management , since nothing of that kind could be made appear . the person accused was a man of good repute and competent fortune , which 't is feared was the first motive to the prosecution , hoping to get a summ of money out of him , rather than endure the disgrace even of being charged or suspected of such an odious crime . the girl that pretended the wrong done her , being between and years of age , told her story very confidently ; but by her own shewing it appeared , that for weeks or upwards she never spoke a word of it , and two surgeons and a midwife that had search'd her , utterly confuted what she alleadged ; besides 't was made out , that her father would have compounded the business , but demanded l. &c. upon all which circumstances , and many persons of repute justifying the prisoners credit and conversation for many years without blemish , he was thereupon acquitted by the jury , and with particular notice of his innocence from the court discharged , and the girls father ordered to give security for his good behaviour . a fellow at stepney having one night made an invasion on an hen-roost , and carried away captive about of them , of which some were found at one of his neighbours house , where he left them , was for the same found guilty of petty larceny , and ordered to be whipt . as also was another for stealing a laced wastcoat out of a ship , which was sound upon his back . a woman was convicted of felony , for robbing one in hatton-garden on the d of february . having lately been servant there , she had observed where they used to lay the key of their outward door , when they went forth , and so comes with two of her companions , goes into the house breaks open a closet door and a desk , and takes away l. odde money and a sword , and so lockt the street-door and go their way ▪ but left behinde them a chezil , which was proved to have been borrowed the same afternoon by her in fetter-lane : and that she and two men did go forth together , assoon as she had got that tool , and were also seen at the house where the robbery was done . two rag-women were indicted for stealing two gowns and several other wearing-cloaths , in the strand . a gentlewomans door being accidentally left open , there were several strong presumptions against them , but no positive proof , so they were acquitted on thursday in the forenoon . a person was convicted for stealing two livery cloaks , and the seats out of two coaches at piccadilly , and being pursued , the goods were taken in the same room with him at maribone . so was another for breaking open a shop in fetter-lane the th of february , and stealing one beaver , and several other hats , to the value of ten pound ; some of which were taken upon him in middlesex , and therefore he was tryed by that jury . a wench , formerly a servant to a washerwoman in st. margarets westminster , , had four indictments brought against her for stealing of linnen , some of which was the washerwomans own , but most of the parcels other peoples : the prisoner acknowledged she did pawn the things , but pretended it was done by the dames order ; and it did appear , she had sent her sometimes with things to the pawn-brokers , so that she was cleared of three indictments ; but a gentlewomans shift that her mistriss washt to , being found on her back , she was on the fourth found guilty , to the value of ten pence , and so to be well whipt . as likewise were two men for stealing a couple of pigs at wapping , they appearing very sorrowful for their crime ; which as they affirmed it to be the first , so they protested it should be the last that ever they would be guilty of , in that or the like kind . a woman arraigned for breaking an house in the day time , and stealing goods , and that she had confessed one put them out to her at an hole ; denying now very confidently , that she knew of , or was any way concern'd in the business ; the court of a sudden asking her , what the womans name was , that so flung the things out ? to which , before she was aware , she replyed , mary , and so in effect own'd her own share in the fact ; but the things being of no great value , 't is like only to cost her a whipping pilgrimage . but the most considerable transactions of this day , were the tryals of two most notorious coiners and clippers of money ; who upon full and plain evidence , and their own confession at bar , were found guilty of two indictments of high-treason apiece ; and indeed , 't is believed , they have not equals in that wicked mistery in england . they stampt groats , nine-pences , six-pences , shillings , half-crowns , and five-shilling pieces ; no sort came amiss to them ; and they had an art to make a nine-pence or groat just new made , look as if it had been coined these hundred years . two witnesses swore directly against each of them , that they had severally seen them at work , both coining and clipping , and produced great variety of the individual pieces , which they had seen pass through their skill and handling . their instruments likewise , mixt mettals , and other utensils taken in their respective lodgings were publickly shown . they were both of a gang , and confessed they had for some years been concerned in such practises . the witnesses had been acquainted with them , and designing a discovery , seemed to comply with them , and furnish them with large money , which first they would clip , and with those clippings and baser mettals , coin new money , and then clip that too to make it pass with less suspition . four five-shilling pieces they will afford for twenty shillings good money , and twenty shillings in groats of their own manufacture , for fifteen shillings sterling ; and one of them offered to teach one of the witnesses such his trade for six pound , and to make and sell rare stamps for coining , at ten pound a pair . the matter was so evident , that they had nothing to say for themselves , and so could not but be both found guilty by the jury , of the several crimes of treason , wherewith they stood charged , and were accordingly condemn'd to be drawn and hang'd . two honest ' men of fulham were charged for stealing a mare , but upon a long disquisition of the matter , it not appeared that the mare in question , was the same the prosecutor lost , but rather on the contrary , that one of the men at the bar , had this mare given him by a worthy gentleman in sussex , whereupon , they were acquitted . so likewise was a woman of st. martins in the fields indicted for murther , but by the witnesses it onely appeared , that as long ago as last easter holy-days , a fray happened between her and the party deceased , and that they were down together , but the prisoner uppermost ; that the said party liv'd till since christmass , and then dyed , having been infirm , and as was asserted , troubled with a dropsie . three persons were convicted of felony , for robbing a scotch-merchant ( or pedlar ) of above five pounds worth of holland callime , flaxen stockings , &c. in the night feb. . at his lodging in rochester , three men forced into his chamber with drawn swords , &c. who took away the goods , but understanding afterwards , some pedlers were seen carry a bundle , he on enquiry got their names , whom he followed , and at the house of one of them , found part of his things , and hard by the persons , and on one of their legs , a pair of his stockings , in anothers pocket his tobacco-box , and a third confessed the robbery ; whereupon , being indicted only in middlesex , it was but a simple felony , for which they escaped with a brand ; whereas in kent it would have proved a burghlary , which mexcy the court minded them of , as a grand argument to warn them from running into any future crimes of that kind , since they are like no more to be indulged by any favour . a complaint having been made , that a considerable sum of money had been extorted by some under officers , from the relations of a person lately executed , before they could obtain his body to burie it , the court was pleased to inquire thereinto , and nobly expressing their detestation of the inhumane practices of such vulters , as would make a prey even of mens carcasses , compelled one that had received some of the money , to refund it in their presence , with farther marks of displeasure threatned to be inflicted . there were in all fourteen burnt in the hand , and nine condemned to die , viz. two men for treason , one woman for murther , a man and a woman for burghlary , and four women for notorious house-breakings and felonies , most of them having formerly been whipt , burnt in the hand , or received other chastisements , and yet would take no warning . finis . master strovvd his speech in parliament on tuesday the third of january in reply to the articles of high treason against himselfe, the lord kimbolton, master pym, sir arthur haselrigg, master hambden and master hollis exhibited by his majestie wherein he cleareth himselfe concerning the same, . speech in parliament on tuesday the third of january, in reply to the articles of high treason against himselfe strode, william, or - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing s ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing s estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; :e , no ) master strovvd his speech in parliament on tuesday the third of january in reply to the articles of high treason against himselfe, the lord kimbolton, master pym, sir arthur haselrigg, master hambden and master hollis exhibited by his majestie wherein he cleareth himselfe concerning the same, . speech in parliament on tuesday the third of january, in reply to the articles of high treason against himselfe strode, william, or - . [ ], p. printed for f. c. and t. b., london : . reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng hampden, john, - , -- defendant. hesilrige, arthur, -- sir, d. , -- defendant. holles, denzil holles, -- baron, - , -- defendant. manchester, edward montagu, -- earl of, - , -- defendant. pym, john, - , -- defendant. trials (treason) -- england -- th century. great britain -- politics and government -- - -- sources. a r (wing s ). civilwar no master strovvd his speech in parliament, on tuesday the third of january, in reply to the articles of high treason against himselfe, the lor strode, william d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion master strovvd his speech in parliament , on tuesday the third of ianuary , in reply to the articles of high treason against himselfe , the lord kimbolton , master pym , sir arthur haselrigg , master hambden , and master hollis , exhibited by his majestie , wherein he cleareth himselfe concerning the same . . london , printd for pc and , tb . master strowd his speech in parliament on tuesday the third of ianuary . master speaker . it is the saying of the wise man even of a king , solomon the wisest of all kings that ever raigned in this earth , that in the countenance of the king is life and death , like to the sonne which by the sending forth of his glorious beames upon the fruits of the earth nourisheth , and causeth the same to fructifie and grow , gives vigor and strength to all the creatures that lives in and upon the same , and by withdrawing his light being over shaddowed with clouds keepes back the growing and flourishing of the creature , yea and by continuance in that his hidden motion procureth at last the utter withering and perishing thereof . his gracious majesty , who is our sonne and comforter at such time as his glorious beames of grace and favour reflect upon hi good subjects , they increase & grow intire & tender affection towards his majesty , that no distempers or troubles whatsoever can separate betweene him and them . but this our sonne being over-shadowed with clouds , and mists of discontent and disfavour towards his people , causeth them to wander in obscurity and darknesse , even ready to faint and dispaire of any designe they take in hand , for the safety and security of his majesty and his kingdomes , yea and strikes them as it were with death and utter distruction . master speaker . i perswade my selfe our gracious soveraigne in his owne naturall disposition , is altogether bright and comfortable , and that never causeth or retracts to himselfe any discontent towards his loving subjects , but by suggestion information , and instigation , of malignant and disaffected spirrits , both to the tranquillity and peace of his majesty and the whole state of this kingdome . it is master speaker the onely pollicy of desparate and evill minded persons , that have beene the onely troublers of our israell finding themselves in danger ( by calling of them to an accompt for their misdeeds and misdemeanours ) to be brought to punishment for the same , to cast aspersions upon those faithfull councellours of the king and state , which strive to prevent their malicious and wicked designes , to overthrow and destroy the same . it cannot sir enter into my thoughts that ever his maiest●e of him selfe could haue gone about to interrupt and hinder , the happie proseedings of th●s his greate and wise counsells whose endeaveours are altogether to maintaine the honour and , dignitie , the peace and saftie of his royall maiestie and his kingdomes , by removeing such impediments and hinderances as have hitherto letted the same and the establishing of true religion in this church congruent to the doctrine of christ and his apostles sett downe and manifested in sacred writt , by accuseing and impeaching the members thereof of high treason as if they whose hearts are united to their lawfull soveraigne , and by nature bound to the defence and securitie of their contrie by covenant with god tyed to the maintenance of his true religion should be the betrayers and destroyers of all together . these articles master speaker exhibited against my selfe and the other gentelmen are i conceive not really intended against vs as if we were actually guiltie of the same but onely to procure our absence from this honourable house that wee may not haue our free votes in the triall of the . bishops accused by whom i verily beleiue were these artickles drawne and onely by their aduice and such as favour their cause were exhibited and i perswade my selfe , may we be apprehended and taken from this house upon the same our tryall , will be by force immediatly , to cutt us of although his majestie no other-wise conceives and is really minded we should legally be proceeded against , of such powerfullnes , are those persons that were the authors of them . master speaker the articles if actually guiltie of are many of them , i confesse ●igh treason as to endeavour to subuert the fundamentall lawes to introduce an arbitrary forme of government to the state actually to levi warr against the king to procure forraigne aide to inuade this land and the like is treason i need not speake much to cleare my selfe of these crimes i hope this honourable house will make such a favorable construction of all my actions since i have had the honour to sitt in the same , that it will be manifest to all the world that they have been far with out the compasse of treason either against my king or country . and master speaker if it shall be conceived by this honourable assembly , as learnedly it hath already been delivered by that w●●thy gentleman that last spake , that as members of a parliament , to agree with the same in all their votes , for the punishment of delinquents , setling of religion , securing of their owne persons by a guard desiring assistance of our brethren in scotland , to suppresse the rebellion in ireland be treason , then i thinke we are all guilty of these articles , otherwise are wee cle●re and innocent of the same . master speaker , i humbly desire of this honourable house , that i may have a speedy tryall upon the same , that as i shall bee found guilty by the iudgement of this high court , i may know my sentence , which i shall willingly submit unto ; be it to my condemnation , or preservation , wishing and praying with all my heart , that none of these evill and malicious designes in agitation against the parliament , by any malignant persons whatsoever may take effect to hinder the blessed proceedings thereof , but that you may goe one with courage and cheerfulnes , to settle all things aright , both in church and state , for the government thereof in perpetuall peace & tranquillity . finis . a proclamation, whereas upon information we have received against charles earl of macclesfeild, we have thought fit to direct our warrant for apprehending the said earl for high treason james r. england and wales. sovereign ( - : james ii) approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page image. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing j estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a proclamation, whereas upon information we have received against charles earl of macclesfeild, we have thought fit to direct our warrant for apprehending the said earl for high treason james r. england and wales. sovereign ( - : james ii) james ii, king of england, - . sheet ([ ] p.) printed by the assigns of john bill deceas'd, and by henry hills, and thomas newcomb ..., london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. broadside. at head of title: by the king, a proclamation. at end of text: given at our court at windsor the seventh day of september . created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng macclesfield, charles gerard, -- earl of, ?- . trials (treason) -- great britain. monmouth's rebellion, broadsides - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - pip willcox sampled and proofread - spi global rekeyed and resubmitted - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion j r diev et mon droit honi soit qvi mal y pense royal blazon or coat of arms by the king , a proclamation . james r. whereas upon information we have received against charles earl of macclesfeild , we have thought fit to direct our warrant for apprehending the said earl for high treason , who is since fled from iustice , and does now lie concealed ; we do by this our royal proclamation strictly charge and command all our loving subjects forthwith to apprehend the said earl for high treason , and that no person do presume to receive or harbour the said earl upon pain of being proceeded against for high treason , according to the utmost severity of the law. given at our court at windsor the seventh day of september . in the first year of our reign . god save the king. london , printed by the assigns of john bill deceas'd : and by henry hills , and thomas newcomb , printers to the kings most excellent majesty . . the examination and tryall of margaret fell and george fox (at the severall assizes held at lancaster the th and th days of the first moneth, , and the th of the th moneth, ) for their obedience to christs command who saith, swear not at all also something in answer to bishop lancelot andrews sermon concerning swearing. fox, margaret askew fell, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing e estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the examination and tryall of margaret fell and george fox (at the severall assizes held at lancaster the th and th days of the first moneth, , and the th of the th moneth, ) for their obedience to christs command who saith, swear not at all also something in answer to bishop lancelot andrews sermon concerning swearing. fox, margaret askew fell, - . fox, george, - . p. s.n.], [london : . place of publication from wing. pages - are supplied in manuscript. reproduction of original in british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng andrewes, lancelot, - . trials -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - tcp staff (michigan) sampled and proofread - tcp staff (michigan) text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the examination and tryall of margaret fell and george fox ( at the severall assizes held at lancaster the th and th days of the first moneth . and the th of the th moneth . ) for their obedience to christs command who saith , swear not at all . also something in answear to bishop lancelot andrews sermon concerning swearing . thus have you made the commandment of god of none effect by your tradition , mat. . . printed in the year , . owe allegiance and obedience to the king of kings christ jesus , who hath commanded me not to swear at all . judge . that is no answer , will you take the oa●h or will you not take it ? m. f. i say i owe allegiance and obedience unto christ jesus , who commands me not to swear . judge . i say unto you that 's no answer , will you take it or will you not take it ? m. f. if you should ask me never so often , i must answer to you the reason why i cannot take it , is because christ jesus hath commanded me not to swear at all , i owe my allegiance and obedience unto him . then one of the justices that committed her , said , mrs. fell you may with a good conscience . ( if you cannot take the oath ) put in security that you may have no more meetings at your house . m. f. wilt thou make that good , that i may with a safe conscience make an engagement to forbear meetings , for fear of losing my liberty and estate ; wilt not thou and you all here judge of me that it was for saving my estate and liberty that i did it , and do i not in this deny my testimony ; and would not this defile my conscience . judge . this is no answer , will you take the oath ? we must not spend time . m. f. i never took an oath in my life , i have spent my days thus far , and i never took an oath , i own allegiance to the king as he is king of england , but christ jesus is king of my conscience — then the clerk held out the book and bid her pull off her glove and lay her hand on the book . m. f. i never laid my hand on the book to swear in all my life , and i never was at this assize before , i was bred and born in this county and have led my life in it , and i was never at an assize before this time , and i bless the lord that i am here this day upon this account , to bear testimony to the truth . — then they asked her if she would have the oath read , she answered , i do not care if i never hear an oath read , for the land mourns because of oaths . judge . then the judge cryed take her away , then thy took her civilly away , and asked her if she would give security that she would have no more meetings . m. f. nay , i can give no such security , i have spoken enough for that . then george fox was called before judge twisden , being a prisoner the goaler brought him in . judge . what do you come into the court with your hat on , and then the goaler took it off . g. f. peace be amongst you all , ( and said ) the hat was not the honour that came down from god. judge . will you take the oath of allegiance george fox . g. f. i never took oath in my life . judge . will you swear or no ? g. f. christ commands we must not swear at all , and the apostle ; and whether must i obey god or man judge thee , i put it to thee . judge . i will not dispute with thee george fox , come read the oath to him , and so the oath was read , and when it was read , give him the book said they , and so a man that stood by him held up the book and said lay your hand on the book . g. f. give me the book in my ltand , which set them all a gazing , and as in a hope he would have sworn ; then when he got the book in his hand , he held up the book and said , this book commands me not to swear if it be a bible i will prove it ; and he saw it was a bible , and he held it up , and then they pluckt it forth of his hand again , and cryed will you swear , will you take the oath of allegiance yea or nay . g. f. my allegiance lies not in oaths , but in truth and faithfulness , for i honour all men , much more the king ; but christ saith i must not swear , the great propher , the saviour of the world , and the judge of the world , and thou sayest i must swear , whether must i obey christ or thee ; for it is in tenderness of conscience that i do not swear , in obedience to the command of christ and the apostle , and for his sake i suffer , and in obedience to his commands do i stand this day ; and we have the word of a king for tender consciences , besides his speeches and declarations at breda ; and dost thou own the king. judge . yes , i own the king. g. f. then why dost not thou own his speeches and declarations concerning tender consciences , to the which he replyed nothing but george said it is in obedience to christ the saviour of the world , the judge of the world , before whose judgment seat all men must be brought , that i do not swear , and am a man of a tender conscience , and then the judge stood up . judge . i will not be afraid of thee , thou speaks so loud thy voice drowns mine and the courts , i must call for three or four cryers to drown thy voice , thou hast good lung . g. f. i am a prisoner here this day for the lord jesus , that made heaven and earth , and for his sake do we suffer , and for him do i stand this day , and if my voice were five times louder , yet should i sound it out and lift it up for christs sake , for whose cause i stand this day before your judgment-seat , in obedience to christs commands , who commands not to swear , before whose judgment-seat you must all be brought , and give an account . judge . sirrah will you take the oath . g. f. i am none of thy sirrah , i am no sirrah , i am a christian , art thou a judge and sits there to give names to prisoners , thou ought not to give names to prisoners . judge . i am a christian too . g. f. then do christian works . judge . sirrah thou thinkest to frighten me with thy words , and looked aside , i am saying so again , g. f. i speak in love to thee , that doth not become a judge , thou oughtest to instruct a prisoner of the law and scriptures if he be ignorant and out of the way . judge . george fox , i speak in love to thee . g. f. love gives no names . judge . wilt thou swear , wilt thou take the oath yea or nay . g. f. as i said before , whether must i obey god or man judge ye , christ commands not to swear , and if thou , or ye , or any minister , or priest here will prove that ever christ or his apostles after they had forbidden swearing , commanded men should swear , i will swear , and several priests being there , yet not one did appear . judge . george fox will you swear or no. g. f. it is in obedience to christs commands i do not swear , and for his sake we suffer , and you are sensible enough of swearers , how they first swear one way then another , and if i could swear any oath at all upon any occasion , i should take that , but it is not denying oaths upon some occasion , but all oaths according to christs doctrine . judge . i am a servant to the king , and the king sent me not to dispute , but he sent me to put his laws in execution , wilt thou swear ? tender the oath of allegiance to him . g. f. if thou love the king , why dost thou break his word , and not own his declarations and speeches to tender consciences from breda , for i am a man of a tender conscience , for in obedience to christs commands i am not to swear . judge . then you will not swear , take him goaler . g. f. it is for christs sake i cannot swear , in obedience to his commands i suffer , and so the lord forgive you all . and so the mighty power of the lord god was over all . the appearance of m. f. the second time being the th day of the aforementioned moneth / . jud. . mrs. fell you stand here indicted by the statute , because you will not take the oath of allegiance , and i am here to inform you what the law provides for you in such a case , viz. first , if you confess to the indictment the judgment of a premunire is to pass upon you , secondly , if you plead you have liberty to traverse . thirdly , if you stand mute and say nothing at all , judgement will be passed against you , so see what you will chuse of those three ways . m. f. i am altogether ignorant of these things , for i had never the like occasion , so i desire to be informed by thee , which of them is the best for me , for i do not know , and so several about the court cryed , traveise , traverse . judge . if you will be advised by me put in your traverse , and so you have liberty untill the next assizes to answer your indictment . m. f. i had rather according to thy own proposal have a process , that i might have liberty untill the next assize , and then to put in a traverse . judge . your traverse is a process . m. f. may not i have a process , and put in my traverse the next assizes , i am informed that was the thing that thou intended that i should have . judge . you shall have it . m. f. that is all i desire . — then a clerk of the crown office stood up and whispered to the judge and said it was contrary to law , and said i must put in my traverse now . judge . i would do you all the favour i can , but you must enter your traverse now . m. f. i acknowledge thy favour and mercy , for thou hast shewn more mercy then my neighbours hath done , and i see what thou hast done for me , and what my neighbours have done against me ; and i know very well how to make a distinction , for they who have done this against me they have no reason for it . judge . i have done you no wrong , i found you here . m. f. i had not been here but by my neighbours . judge . what say you , are you willing to traverse . m. f. if i may not be permitted to have that which i desire ( that is ) longer time , i must be willing to traverse till the next assizes , and that upon this account , that i have something to inform thee of , which i did not speak on the last time when i was brought before thee : the justices which committed me , they told me they had express order from above , but they did not shew me the order , neither indeed did i ask them for it , but i heard since that they have given it out in the country that they had an order from the counsel , others said they had an order from the king. — the sheriff said there was express order ; and also justice fleeming said there was an order from the king and the counsel , so the country is incensed that i am some great enemy to the king , so i desire that i may have this order read , that i may know what my offence is that i may clear my self . judge . i will tell you what that order is , we have express order from the king to put all statutes and laws in execution , not only against you , but all other people , and against papists if they be complained of . m. f. will that order give the justices of peace power to fetch me from my own house , to tender me the oath . judge . mrs. we are all in love , if they had an order believe they had one . m. f. if they have one let them shew it , and then i can believe it . judge . come , come , enter the traverse . m. f. i had rather have had more time , that i might have informed the king concerning these things . judge . you may inform the king in half a years time , so now let us have your friend called up . then after she was gone down , the judge called her back again and said , if you will put in bail you may go home , and have your liberty till the next assizes , but you must not have such frequent meetings . m. f. i will rather lie where i am , for as , i told you before , i must keep my conscience clear for that i suffer . the th day of the same moneth g. f. was brought before the judge the second time , where he was a little oftended at his hat , being the last morning before he was to depart away , and not many people . judge . the judge he read a paper to him which was , whether he would submit , stand mute , or traverse , and so have judgment past ; he spake these and many more words so very sofily and in baste , that g. f. could not tell what he said . g. f. desired it might be traversed and tryed . judge . take him away , then i will have no more with him , take him away . g. f. well live in the fear of god and do justice . judge . why , have i not done you justice . g. f. that which thou hast done hath been against the command of christ. this with much more was spoken which could not be collected . and then g. f. was called up . the th day of the th moneth in the year . at the assizes holden at lancaster , m. f. brought to the bar , the indictment read to the judge , come will you take the oath . m. f. there is a clause in the indictment , that the church-wardens informed of something which seemeth , that that should be the ground or first occasion of this indictment , i desire to know what that information was , and what the transgression was by which i come under this law. judge . mistress , we are not to despute that , you are here indicted , and you are here to answer , and to plead to your indictment . m. f. i am first to seek out the ground and the cause wherefore i am indicted , you have no law against me except i be a trangressour , the law is made for the lawless and trangressours , and except i be a transgressour ye have no law against me , neither ought you to have indicted me , for being that the church-wardens did inform , my question is , what matter of fact they did inform of , for i was sent for from my own house , from amongst my children and family , when i was about my outward occasions , when i was in no meeting , neither was it a meeting day ; therefore i desire to know what this first foundation or matter of fact was , for there is no law against the innocent and righteous , and if i be a transgressour let me know wherein . judge . you say well , the law is made for transgressours , but mistress do you go to church ? m. f. i do go to church , judge , what church , m. f. to the church of christ. judge . but do you go to church amongst other people , ye know what i mean. m. f. what dost thou call a church the house or the people , the house ye all know is wood and stone , but if thou call the people a church , to that i shall answer ; as for the church of england that now is , i was gathered unto the lords truth , unto which i now stand a witness before this church was a church , i was separated from the general worship of the nation , when there was another set up then that which is now , and was persecuted by that power that then was , and suffered much hardship , and would you have us now to deny our faith and our principles which we have suffered for so many years ; and would you now have us to turn from that which we have born witness of so many years , and turn to your church contrary to our conscience . judge . we spend time about those things , come to the matter in hand , what say ye to the oath and to the indictment ? m. f. i say this to the oath , as i have said in this place before now , christ jesus hath commanded me not to swear at all , and that is the only cause and no other ; the righteous judge of heaven and earth knoweth , before whose throne and justice ye must all appear one day , and his eyes sees us all and beholds us all at this present , and he hears and sees all our words and actions ; and therefore every one ought to be serious , for the place of judgment is weighty , and this i do testisie unto you here , where the lords eye beholds us all , that for the matter or substance of the oath , and the end for which it was intended ; i do own one part and denies the other , that is to say , i do own truth and faithfulness and obedrence to the king , and all his just and lawful demands and commands ; i do also deny all plotting , contrivings against the king , and all popish supremacy and conspiracy , and i can no more transgress against king charles in these things , then i can disobey christ jesus his commands , and by the same power and vertue of the same word , which hath commanded me not to swear at all , the same doth bind me in my conscience , that i can neither plot nor contrive against the king , nor do him nor no man upon the earth any wrong ; and i do not deny this oath only because it is the oath of allegiance , but i deny it because it is an oath , because christ jesus hath said i shall not swear at all , neither by heaven , nor by earth , nor any other oath ; and if i might gain the whole world for swearing an oath i could not , and what ever i have to lose this day for not swearing of an oath , i am willing to offer it up . judge . what say you to the indictment . m. f. what should i say , i am clear and innocent of the wronging any man upon the earth as my little child that stands by me here , and if any here have any thing to lay to my charge , let them come down and testifie it here before ye all ; and if i be clear and innocent you have no law against me : then colonel kirby and the sheriff whispered to the judge , and i looked up and spoke to colonel kirby , and said let us have no whispering , i will not have so many judges one of one side , and another of another , here is one judge that is to be judge , and the judge said no no i will not hear them ; and then i calsed to colonel kirby , and said if thou have any thing to lay to my charge , or to speak against me come come down here and testifie against me , and i said the judge represents the kings person and his power , and i own that . judge . jury take notice she doth not take the oath . m. f. this matter is weighty to me , whatsoever it is to you upon many accounts , and i would have the jury to take notice of it , and to consider seriously what they are going to do ; for i stand here before you upon the account of the loss of my liberty and my estate . secondly , i stand here in obeying christs commands , and so keeping my conscience clear , which if i obey this law and king charles commands i defile my conscience and transgresseth against christ jesus , who is the king of my conscience , and the cause and controversie in this matter , that you all are here to judge of this day , is betwixt christ jesus and king charles ; and i am his servant and witness this day , and this is his cause , and whatsoever i suffer it is for him , and so let him plead my cause when he pleafeth . and the judge said to the jury are ye all agreed have ye found it , and they said for the king. m. f. then spoke to the judge , and said , i have counsel to plead to my indictment , and he said he would clear them afterward in arrest of judgment ; so the court broke up that time , and after dinner when they came again , they intended to have called us at the first , and they had called g. f. out and was calling of me , and i stepped up to the bar and desired the judge that he would give us time till the next morning to bring in our reast of judgment , and the judge said at the first we should and i was stepping down to go my way , and the judge called me back again , and said mistress fell you wrote to me concerning your prisons that they are bad and rains in , and are not fit for people to lie in , and i answered , the sheriff doth know and hath been told of it several times ; and now it is raining if you will send to see at this present , you may see whether they be fit for people to lie in or no ; and colonel kirby stood up and spoke to the judge to excuse the sheriff , and the badness of the room , and i spoke to him and said if you were to lie in it your selves you would think it hard , but your minds is only in cruelty to commit others , as william kirby here hath done , who hath committed ten of our friends , and put them into a cold room where there was nothing but bare boards to lie on , where they have laid several nights , some of them old ancient men above threescore years of age , and known to be honest men in their country where they live , and when william kirby was asked why they might not have liberty to shift for themselves for beds , he answered and said they were to commit them to prison , but not to provide prisons for them ; and we asked him who should do it then , and he said the king : and then the judge spoke to him and said they should not do so , they should let them have prisons fit for men , with several more such like words ; and then at that time we were returned to our chambers again , the next day we were called about the th hour , and i stood up to the bar , and said i had counsel there and named them that the judge might assign them to speak , and i said i had two or three words to speak before them , and i said i did see all sorts of prisoners that did appear before the judge received mercy , what the law would afford them ; but we desired only to receive justice and law , and the judge said what are we hear for else ; so i stepped down and the lawyers spoke and shewed the judge severall errours , and defects , and places of contradiction , and confusion in the indictment ; at which the judge seemed to give ear to some of them , others he seemed to wave , but he made a pause and a stop , and seemed dissatisfied , and then called g. f. and so then when he came to plead , and bringing that by which his indictment was quite quenched , and then they put the oath to g. f. again the judge spoke to the lawyers , and said he would consider of those particulars they had spoken to , and he would speak to his brother twisden before he passed judgment upon me ; but if i do pass judgment you may have a writ of errour and the lawyers answered him again , will you pass a erroneous judgment my lord , so after they had called the grand jury , and tendered g. f. the oath again , they returned us to our chambers , and when they had drawn another indictment of g. f. and found it , they called us again in the afternoon , and g. f. pleaded to his indictment and entred his traverse , when he had done the judge spoke to me and said , if such a word had been in , which was not in mine , but it was in g. fs. ( and yet it was neither of those words , by which his indictment was quashed ; ) but if that had been in mine he said he would not have passed sentence , but being that it was not there he passed sentence of premunire , then i stood up and told him that he had said to my counsel , that i might have a writ of errour to reverse it , he said i should have what the law would afford me , so i said the lord forgive thee for what thou hast done , and this law was made for popish recusants , but ye pass sentence but on few of them . margaret fell. the last assizes holden at lancaster the th of the th moneth . i george fox being called before the judge , was put amongst the fellons and murtherers , and there stood amongst them above two hours , the people , and the justices , and judge gazing upon me ; and there they tryed many things before the judge , and they called me to the bar , and then the judge causted me to be brought , and he then caused the jury to be called , and then he askt the justices whether they had tendered me the oath at the sessions , and they said they had , and the judge caused the book to be given to the justices for them to swear , they tendered me the oath according to the indictment , and some of them would have refused , and the judge said he would do it to take away occasion , that there might be no occasion ; and when the justices and jury was sworn , the judge askt me whether i had not refused to take the oath the last assize , and i said i never took an oath in my life , and christ the saviour and judge of the world saith swear not at all ; and the judge askt me whether or no i had not refused to take the oath the last assizes , and i answered , the words that i said to them was , that if they could prove either priest , or teacher , or justices , that after christ and the apostles had forbidden swearing , that afterwards they commanded that men should swear , i would swear . the judge said he was not at that time to dispute whether it was lawful to swear , but to enquire whether or no i did refuse to take the oath . georg. those things as concernining plotting and the popes forreign powers , &c. contained in that oath i utterly deny . the judge . said , i said well in that . george . i said to them again as before , that if they could prove that after christ and the apostle forbad swearing , that again they commanded to swear , i would swear , but christ and the apostle commanded not to swear , therefore i should shew forth christianity , for i am a christian. the judge askt me again , whether i had denyed the oath , what did i say ? george . what would thou have me to say , i have told thee before what i have said . the judge askt me if i would have those men to swear that i had taken the oath . geo. would thou have those men to swear that i have refused to take the oath , at which the court burst out into laughter ; i asked them if this court was a play-house , where is gravity , and sobriety , for that did not become them , and so the indictment being read , i told the judge i had something to speak to it ; & i askt him whether all the oath was not to be put into the indictment , and he said yes , why then said i here is ( pretended to be derived and his heirs and successours ) left out , and i askt him whether the oath was to be put to the kings subjects and he said yes . i answered , why am not i put in as a subject , but the word ( subject ) left out of the indictment which is in the oath , and so makes it not the same oath , jury take notice of it , but the judge said i must speak to the jury , at which words the judge read the oath , and found it was as i had said , so he stood up and said he could put the oath to me , or any man in the court , and so they began to be disturbed in themselves also the justices ; and there began to be a murmuring against the clerks , and the judge he got up and began to cover the errour , so i askt whether the last eleventh day of january the sessions was kept at lancaster , which they call munday , and whether or no the sessions was not on that they call tuesday the twelfth of january , all people take your almanacks , and see whether any oath was tendred , g. f. the th of january , whether the sessions was not upon the th and the clerks and people lookt their almanacks , and saw it was the th and the judge askt whether the th was not the first of the sessions , and they answered there was but one day , and it was the th and the judge said then it was a great mistake ; and then all the justices was struck , and some of them could have found in their hearts to have gone off , and said they had done it on purpose , and said what clerk did it , and a great stir was amongst them . and then i spoke to the jury how that they could not bring me in guilty according to that indictment , and the judge said i must not speak to the jury , but he would speak to them , and said they might bring me in guilty i denying the oath ; then i said what should you do with a form then , and do not go according to it , then you may throw the form away , and then i told the jury that it lay upon their consciences as they would answer the lord god before his judgment-seat , before whom all must be brought , and so the judge spoke to me , and said he would hear me afterwards any reasons that i could alledge wherefore he should not give judgment against me , and so he spoke to the jury , and i bid him do me justice and do justice , and so the jury brought in for the king guilty . and i told them then the justices had forsworn themselves and the jury both . and so they had small cause to laugh as they did a little before , and to say i was mad , and before i had brought forth my reasons i stood a little while , and the judge said he cannot dispute , but then the people said he is too cunning for them all , after i had brought forth my reasons , how contrary to their own indictment they had done and sworn , and brought me in guilty ; oh the envy , and rage , and malice , that was among them against me and lightness , but the lord confounded it all , that abundance of it was slain , and so i told them i was no lawyer , and the judge said he would hear me what i could alledge before he did give judgment , and so i cryed all people might see how they had forsworn themselves , and gone contrary to their own indictment , and so their envy and malice was wonderfully stopt , and so persently m. fell was called , who had a great deal of good service amongst them , and so the court broke up near the second hour , many more words was spoken concerning the truth . and so in the afternoon we were brought up to have sentence passed upon us , and so m. fell desired that judgment and sentence might be deferred till the next morning and we desired nothing but law and justice at his hands , for thieves had mercy , and i desired the judge to send some to see my prison being so bad , they would put no creature they had in it , it was so windy and rainy , and i told him that colonel kirby who was then on the bench said i should be lockt up , and no flesh alive should come at me , and most of the gentry of the country being gathered together , expecting to hear the sentence , but they were crost that time , so i was had away to my prison , and some justices with colonel kirby went up to see it , and when they came up in it they durst scarcely go in it , it was so bad , rainy , and windy , and the badness of the floor , and others that came up said it was a jakes house , i being removed out of the prison which i was in formerly , and so col. kirby said i should be removed from that place ere long , that i should be sent unto some fecurer place , for he spake to the judge in the court , saying , he knew that the justices would joyn with him , but the judge said after i have past sentence i will leave him to the jaylor and how i was not a fit man to be converst with , none should converse with me , and all the noise amongst the people was that i should be transported and so the next day towards the th hour we was called forth again to hear the sentence and judgement , but m. fell was called first before me to the bar , and there was some counsellours pleaded , and found many errours in her indectment , and so she was taken by , after the judge had acknowledged them , and then the judge askt what they could say to mine , and i was willing to let no man plead for me , but to speak to it my self and though m. fell had some that pleaded for her , yet she spoke as much her self as she would , and though they had the most envy against me , yet the most gross errours was found in mine , and before i came to the bar i was moved to pray , that the lord would confound their wickedness , and envy , and set his truth over all , and exalt his seed ; the thundering voice answered i have glorified thee , and will glorifie thee again , and i was so filled full of glory , that my head and ears was filled full of it ; and that when the trumpets sounded & the judges came up again , they all appeared as dead men under me , and so when i was to answer to the errours of the indictment , seeing that all the oath as he said himself was to be in , i told him there was many words of the oath left out , which was ( pretended to be derived , and his heirs and successours ) and i bid them look the oath and look the indictment , and they might see it , aud they did , and found it according to my words ; and i askt them whether the last assizes holden at lancaster was in the th year of the king , which was the th day of march , and they said nay it was the th year ; then said i look your indictment , and see whether or no it is not the th year , and then they were all of a fret both judge and justices , for it was the th in the indictment ; then the judge bid them look whether m. fells was so or no , and it was not so : i told them i had something else to speak concerning the indictment , but they said nay , i had spoken enough , so the indictment was thrown out , so i told them that they had small cause to laugh as they had done a little before , for they might see how the justices and the jury was sorsworn men , and so i bid him do me justice , and he said i should have law , and the judge said i was clear from all the former , and he started up in a rage and said but he would proffer the oath to me again ; i told him they had example enough for swearers and false swearers , both justices and jury yesterday before their faces , for i saw before mine eyes both justices and jury had forsworn themselves , who heard the indictment , and so he askt me whether i would take the oath , i bid him do me justice for my false imprisonment all this while . for what had i been prisoner all this while for , for i ought to be at liberty , then he said i was at liberty , but i will put the oath to you again : then i turned me about , and cryed all people take notice this is a snare , and all was mighty quiet , and all people was struck and astonisht , and he caused the grand-jury to be called , for he had called them before when i was there , when he saw they would be overthrown , and the jury would fain have been dismist , but he told them he could not dismiss them , for he had business for them , and they might be ready when he called them , and i felt his intent , that if i was freed he would come on again , so i lookt him in the face , and he was judged in himself , for he saw that i saw him , so he caused the oath to be read to me again , and caused the jury to be called , and then when the oath was read he askt me whether i would take the oath or no , and the jury standing by , i told him i never took oath in my life , and he bid them give me the book and i bid them give it me in my hand and i opened it , and he bid me swear , and i told him the book bid swear not at all , again he bid me swear , and i told him the book said i should not swear , and held it open to them , and said by the book i would prove that men should not swear . and if they would prove after christ and the apostle had forbidden swearing , that afterwards they commanded to swear , then i would swear , for i was a man of a tender conscience ; and if they had any sense of a tender conscience they would consider this , and the judge askt me whether i would take the oath , and bid them give me the book again , i told them ye give me the book to swear , and the book saith i should not swear at all ; and so you may prison the book , the judge said he would imprison george fox , i answered nay , you may prison the book , which saith swear not at all , and the sheriff and the judge said the angel swore in the revelations , i answered , i bring forth my first begotten son into the world saith god , let all the angels in heaven worship him , who saith swear not at all , and the judge said often he would not dispute , and so then i spoke much to the jury how that it was for christs sake , that which i did ; and therefore none of them to act contrary to that of god in their consciences , for before his judgment-seat they must all be brought , and for all those things contained in the oath , as plots and persecuting about religion , and the popes power , &c. i denyed them in my heart , and i am a christian , and shall shew forth christianity this day , and it is for christs sake that i stand for it is lotish shabim be coldabor , and they all gazed , and there was a great calm , and they took me away , but there was many more words both to the jury and to them . then in the afternoon we was called again , where i stood among the thieves a pretty while with my hat on , at the last the goaler took it off , and when i was called to the bar the jury brought in guilty for the king , and the judge askt me what i could say for my self . i bid them read the indictment , i would not answer to that i did not hear , and as they read , the judge bid them take heed it was not false again , and they read it so amazedly , that when they spoke to me i did scarcely understand what they said , and the judge askt me what i would plead , i told them i desired to have a copy of that indictment , and to have some time to answer to it , for the last i had but lately , and never heard it read but once , and then in the court , and so the judge askt me what time i would have , and i said till the next assizes , and the judge said i should , then he askt again what i would plead , i told him i was not guilty at all of denying swearing , swearing obstinately and wilfully , and those things contained in the oath as jesuitical plots , and forreign powers , &c. i utterly denyed them , and he said i said well in that , and the judge said the king was sworn , the parliament was sworn , and the justices and he was sworn , and the law was upheld by oaths ; i told them they had sufficient experience of mens swearing , had not the justices and jury forsworn themselves , and had they not read the book of martyrs , how many of the martyrs suffered because they could not swear , both in the ten persecutions , and in bonners days , and the judge said i would the laws were otherwise , then i said our yea is yea , and our nay nay all along ; and if we transgress our yea and nay let us suffer as they do that do break an oath , and so to deny swearing is not a new thing in obedience to christs command , and i said this we had sent to the king who said it was reasonable , and so after several more words i was had away to my chamber being ( as i was before ) to answer to the indictment , and so the truth and power of the lord god was glorious over all , and many spirits was crost grievously in their envy and malice . there was many things spoken both to judge , jury ; and people , which were too large to mention . and so the judge told margaret fell her sentence , and i lie upon a new indictment . g. f. something in answer to bishop lancelot andrews sermon concerning swearing , being one of his sermons upon the third commandment , the place that he trea●s upon is in jer. the th the words are these : and thou shalt swear the lord liveth in truth , in judgment , and righteousness . and further , to prove the lawfulness of swearing , he brings deut. . . isa. . . — psal. . and last ver . and how abraham sware . gen. . . and isack sware , gen. . . and jacob sware . . . and abrahams servant sware , gen. . . and gen. . . & numb . . which saith he , an oath is to the lifting up of a burthen as to the entring of a bond. first , he saith an oath is to be used in solemn matters , and he brings these scriptures following out of the old testament to prove it , psal. . . numb . . . psal. . . psal. . . chron. . , . ezek. . . psal. . . psal. . . kings . , . lev. . . chron. . . gen. . & . . secondly , for the nature of an oath he quotes . psal. ver . & numb . . and last ver . thirdly , he speaks of the manner of an oath , and produceth for confirmation these scriptures following , deut. . . numk . . dan. . . rev. . . kings . , . exod. . . — neh. . . numb . . prov. . . judg. . . lev. . . sam. . , . kings . , . gen. . . kings . . . jer. . . first , as for all the above mentioned scriptures which he hath quoted in the time of the law , and before the law , and the angels swearing in the revelations , do not prove that christians may swear ; and we do grant ye the time before the law men did swear , and also the angel swore , but christ is come the first begotten whom god hath brought forth into the world , and saith , let all the angels worship him ; and this is my beloved son hear ye him saith god : and christ saith how that in the old time men was to perform their oaths to the lord , these were their true oaths which they were to perform and they were not to swear falsly , but to perform their oath to the lord ; so here christ in his doctrine lets them see the false oaths and the true oaths in the old time , and that was the true oath to swear by the lord , and to swear the lord liveth : and every tongue should swear , and abraham , and isaack , and jacob , and joseph , and the prophets sware , but christ is the end of the prophets , and doth fulfil the law , & reigns over the house of jacob , & joseph , & before abraham was , i am saith christ ; and so though they sware before the law and under the law , and the angel in the revelations sware , & the angel that sware sware by the lord as the oath was in the time of the law , and before the law , and this was the oath that christ minds them on in his doctrine here , that they were to perform to the lord , yet now mark his doctrine , which he himself lays down and commands , but i say unto you now swear not at all , &c. matthew . . in the hebrew language it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but let your communication be yea , yea , nay , nay , whatsoever is more then these cometh of evil ; in the hebrew its 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and further proof , see how jamse lived in the same doctrine and practice , and held it forth to the tribes which was the jews , who had the oath of god , and was to swear in the time of the law ; see his general epistle in the th chap. and also speaking in the second chapter of such as drove them before the judgment-seat , but in the th chapter this is his command above all things , my brethren swear not at all , neither by heaven nor by the earth , in the greek its 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this you may call creatures or made things : but mark james goes further , and faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 — nor by any other oath , but let your yea , be yea , and your nay , be nay , lest you fall into condemnation , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mark the danger now , and whether we have not ground enough in the fear of the lord god to obey christs commands and the apostles doctrines , lest we fall into condemnation an● evil , we have set some words down in the greek tongue , that those it most concerns may see the original , but the spirit is ours , and the commands of christ , and the apostles doctrine to be obeyed in what tongue soever it be written in , but we would query the thing with any , whether the apostle james who wrote to jews and not to gentiles , did not write in the hebrew tongue and not in greek , and if so , then his words to them in this particular are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the pricks , points , and accents , and the plain and naked interpretation of the hebrew word we have left for them it most concerns to adde . secondly , as for all the scriptures he brings against rash swearing , and false swearing , it would rejoyce our hearts to have the priests do that , and the magistrates punish it for a couple of railing priests come the other day and sware before our faces lightly and vainly , and justifyed it when they had done ; it would become magistrates and them better if they did not suffer an oath to be heard in the towns , or markets , or ale-houses , or streets , you that have power , not to suffer those things ; for you would have work enough to restrain such things , and such persons , and not to fall upon the innocent which in obedience to christs commands and the apostles doctrine cannot swear for conscience sake : for imprisoning such emboldens people to swear , and would it not be better for people , and would ye not shew forth more christianity to keep to yea and to nay in all their communications according to christs commands and the apostles doctrine . thirdly , there was bond in the old time by oath , but christ he looses from the bonds and brings to peace and liberty , and makes free , and saith , swear not at all : and so though we be in outward bonds , it is for christ jesus sake , and the word of god is not bound . fourthly , and though moses sware in the time of the law , and abrahams servants sware , yet christ the son saith , swear not at all and we are to hear him in all things the great prophet . fifthly , and as for the ceremonies of the oaths , christ is the substance of all ceremonies , that saith , swear not at all . sixthly , and though david sware , he that david called lord saith , swear not at all , and he is upon his throne . seventhly , and where he saith , thou shall swear by the lord , and swear the lord liveth , they were not to swear by them that were no gods , nor creatures , nor by the earth , nor by heaven , or by the hand , or by jerusalem ; now what are the oaths that all christendom swears , both papists and protestants ? whether it be the oath that was amongst the jews , and whether or no they practise the oath that they do now , and whether or no is that ceremony now used , if not , when did god alter it ; where about in scripture , and in what place of scripture is it that he sets this way and ceremony of swearing in christendom , both amongst papists and protestants , which is to swear by the book , and by the evangelists ? is this beyond the jews swearing , by the city , or by head , or by the temple which christ forbid , and not only those oaths , but the oath of god , which the jews was to swear by , answer these things . eightly , and as for zedekiahs oath to nebuchadnezar , and josephs oath to pharaoh , this was in the time that oaths were to be performed amongst the jews and patriarchs , and what is this to christs doctrine which forbids oaths , which oaths was before christ came . thly , and as for the oath of supremacy & the other , it is to acknowledge the king of eng. and allegiance to him , which things hath been manifest and practised by us , but not by such as sware allegiance to the kings father , and swore the one way and the other way , and hast not thou and many of you taken the oath against him , and such as have sworn one while for him , and another while against him ; how are they in allegiance to him that swears one way and another way ? and cannot there be in truth and faithfulness allegiance to the king without swearing ? for now how should we stand in allegiance to christ if we did not obey his commands the king of kings 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for he commands us not to swear , but keep to yea and nay , and one of his great embassadours to nations that went with his message to the twelve tribes saith , above all things my brethren swear not at all , lest you fall into condemna●ion . tenthly , there were two states of oaths , the one was that people was to perform to the lord and swear , and the other was that god sware by himself concerning his son christ jesus , which when he came who fulfilled gods oath , he ended the other oath and saith , swear not at all , and calls the first oath the old time ; he fulfilled the truth , and let them see how in the time of the law false oaths were forbidden in the old time , and heathenish oaths were forbidden in the time of the law , for they were not to swear by baal , but they were to perform their oaths to the lord , which christ saith unto them , swear not at all , and so he ended that oath ; so there is no oaths before the fall , and there is no oaths in the restauration again by christ jesus but yea and nay , according to his doctrine , but amongst moses and the prophets , and in the old time before moses and the prophets men did swear , as abraham and isaack , &c. but he the great prophet is come that is to be heard in all things , and he the oath of god christ jesus stands and remains . eleventhly , the apostles speaking to the hebrews , swearing by a greater which was an end of controversie and strife amongst them , he brought this as a similitude , not that the hebrews should swear , for if he had , he had contradicted james which wrote to the twelve tribes his doctrine to them , which were hebrews , but he brought it as a similitude , that the oath which men swear by the greater ended strife ; but god not finding a greater then himself , he sware concerning his son which is christ , who ends the strife , who destroys the devil and his works , the author of strife ; for the oath in the time of the law ended the strife , but we see oaths now adays begins it , and why , the matter is because in christ jesus men do not live , who is the peace and gods oath . twelfthly , where as the bishop saith , that they hold in divinity that to swear of and by it self considered , is an act forbidden no less then to kill &c. ans. in the time of the law they killed and swore , but christ saith , swear not at all , and also he saith , love enemies ; and how do these agree to kill and to love enemies , and love one another , and if one strike thee on the one cheek turn the other to him . and this paralleling the magistrates executing justice upon malefactors ; as he that sheddeth mans blood , by man shall his blood be shed again : is not a paralleling with christs doctrine , who saith , swear not at all , for that may be done by witnesses , without oath , as thou maist read the scriptures in the old time , when oaths were denyed in the primitive time among the primitive christians , who were in christs doctrine , thou maist read how they did things by witnesses , as the apostle speaks in the mouth of two or three witnesses , &c. which place he instances of what was done in the time of the law , which was a statute of judgment among the jews , whosoever killeth any person , the murtherer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses , &c. but no oaths are mentioned here , num. . . with heb. . read that throughout , and also deut. . . & king. . . &c and many more scriptures might be alledged which you that have read scriptures are not ignorant of . now for the practice amongst the saints , see mat. . . christ who bids them keep to yea and nay , in that place lays down a practise to be used amongst them in matter of fault and transgression how it should be ended by two or three witnesses , read the words that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established , and what dost thou think that he would order them to swear , who had once forbidden it ? and read the . chap. of john and . ver . and we do not find that the witnesses againstchrist that he should speak blasphemy , mat. . . that they did swear , and also you may see in acts . , , . how they that were hired against stephen , no mention is made of their swearing , moreover you may see in cor. . . the speech of the apostle amongst the saints , how he tells them of of his coming unto them in the mouth of two or three witnesses ; he doth not tell that he is coming to them with oaths in their mouths , mark , the apostle was an elder and had care of the churches . — and again the apostle that writes to tim. a bishop , an overseer of the churches , saith he , against an elder receive not an accusation , but before two or three witnesses . - now he doth not say before two or three men that swears , for if he had he would have contradicted christs doctrine and james , tim. . . & tim. . saith the apostle to tim. the bishop , the things that thou hast heard of me amongst many witnesses , the same commit to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also . now he received this by witnesses , not by oath , and he was to commit it and not by oaths , and were not these the things that the whole church came to be ordered by ? and this was amongst the christians in the primitive times when oaths were ended , and many more things might be alledged which were two tedious for you to read . thirteenthly , and whereas he brings that objection of the anabaptists , which is that it standeth not with christian profession , but was tollerated as an imperfect thing under the law . ans. which objection of theirs we do not own , as we do not own the bishop for swearing ; for it was the way of the lord , and the way of the lord was perfect , and the commandment for swearing was good in it self , untill the time of christ who is perfect that ends the law , and people must live in him christ jesus and walk in him that saith , swear not at all , that ends the oath , and is the oath of god ; dost thou not read of a people in the galatians and romans that was turned back into the law , from the law of the spirit , and the apostle told them he that broke one point was guilty of all , and he brought them to the law of love which fulfilled the law . fourteenthly , and as for all the scriptures the bishop brings to prove that the christians sware in the primitive time they are nothing to the purpose , though the bishop say that christ admits of some swearing , which both his own words and the apostles contradicts ; christs words are , swear not at all ; and the apostles are above all things , &c. — and so he goes on and lets them see what was in the law , committing adultery was forbid under the law , but in the time of christ looking upon a woman and lusting after her was committing adultery . — and he sets forth in the justice of the law an eye for an eye , and a tooth for a tooth , and shews how that in the time of the law thou shalt not kill , and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of judgment , but i say unto you , that whosoever shall be angry with his brother without cause shall be in danger of judgment ; and so he tells both swearing and killing to be in the old time , and said except the righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees you shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven . fifteenthly , and as to that of the apostle speaking in the thes. . god was his witness that he did not make covetousness his cloak . answ. it were well if the priests could say so now , but this doth not prove that he swore , and there are many men that takes man to be his witness ; and that is not an oath , surely is it ? thou understands that ? and if this were an oath , why do you cast friends into prison ? sixteenthly , and that of the galatians chapter . . there is nothing in that place like unto an oath which he brings . seventeenthly , and as for the or . . . verse , there are not so many verses in that chapter . — and as for the ephesians th th and th which he brings for christians to swear , which he says we are bound at all times to speak truth to our neighbours . answ. he doth not say we are to swear truth at all times , but to speak it at all times . eighteenthly , and that which he brings in acts . . how the apostle reproved the high priest , that caused him to be smitten contrary to law . answ. here the apostle was preaching the gospel and christs doctrine to them , to the priests that had the law and outward things ; this was nothing to the purpose , that the apostle should swear , or that christians should swear . — and in the th verse which he quotes . answ. those were the bad people that bound themselves with a curse , that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed paul that preached the gospel , this is nothing at all that christians should swear . nineteenthly , we say there were heathens oaths annd jews oaths which were to swear by the lord , which christ calls the old time , which they were to perform , which oath christ ends ; and saith , swear not at all , for in the time of the law the jews were to deny all false oaths , and heathenish oaths , and they were not to swear by baal , but the true oath which christ ends : and did not the christians suffer in the primitive times , because . they could not swear by the prosperity of caesar ; and was not that oath then imposed upon them ? and by the good fortune of the emperour , was not that another oath ? and did not many christians then suffer because they could not swear , read the ten persecutions which was a long time before the pope got up , and then did not the pope when he had got up over the churches , give forth both oath and curse , with bell book and candle ? and was not the ceremony of his oath to lay three fingers a top of the book to signifie the trinity ? and two fingers under the book to signifie damnation of body and soul if they sware falsly . — and was not there a great number of people that would not swear , and suffered great persecution , as read the book of martyrs but to bonners days , and its little above an hundred years since the protestants got up ; and they gave forth the oath of allegiance , and the oath of supremacy , the one was to deny the popes supremacy , and the other to acknowledge the kings of england ; so we need not to tell you of their form , and shew you the ceremony of the oath , it saith kiss the book , and the book saith kiss the son ; which saith , swear not at all , and so cannot allegiance be to the king in truth and faithfulness , as was said before without an oath , yea and more then many that swears . so you may see to deny swearing is no new thing , for it was the practise of the christians in former times to deny it , both in heathens and the times of popery before protestants ; and so it is in obedience to the command of christ that we do not swear in our loves to him , & if we say he is lord & master and do not the thing that he commands , that is but deceit and hypocrisie . and so rash and bad swearing that was forbidden in the time of the law , it was not that which christ came to fulfill , but true oaths , and the true types , figures , and shadows , and he saith , swear not at all . twentiethly , and as for acts the th there is nothing spoken of swearing , there as all people may read . thly , and whereas the apostle often speaks , and taking to witness a record upon his own soul by his rejoyeing in christ jesus , what is all this to swearing and taking an oath , or where did ever the apostle take a solemn oath , or command the brethren and churches to do the same ? for often he speaks of the witness our of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established . — and the bishop often brings the cor. . . by our rejoycing which i have in christ jesus , i die daily ; this place cannot be brought for a proof that the apostle sware ; if so , when thou saist by thy meat thou art refreshed , and by the fire thou art warmed , and people tells thee thou must go by such a lane to such a town , they all swear then , do they not ? thly , as for the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the bishop says its never used but in an oath only . answ. and what is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is it not ( truly ) as also the primitive word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifies yea ? and is not that word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the aforementioned , th of matthew and th of james , where swearing is denyed — for is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greek yea in english ; and is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greek truly in english , and if every man that says yea and truly sweareth , then the bishop proves his assertion . — and is not there a difference between 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 — so in meekness and love read this over in that from which it was sent . post-script . christ jesus who is the king of kings , and lord of lords , the beginning and ending , first and last , him by whom god will judge the world in righteousness . we quaery of you whether he or any of his apostles , after they had given forth a command that none should swear , but keep to yea and nay in all their communications , can any minister or teacher prove this in express words out of the new testament that they ever commanded to swear or did swear , that will satisfie , that will end all : but that we should be cast into prison for our obedience to christs command , by you that professes your selves to be christians , and own christ jesus as you say , is not right : and he commands you to love enemies if you did obey his commands , and love one another ; for they that are christians and own christ jesus they should love one another : for this was a mark by which they were known to be disciples learners of him . and so they that are lovers of him , own him and obey him and his doctrins , so though we do suffer here by you all the sessions or assizes ; we do commit our cause and you that do persecuters to the general assizes and terrible day wherein god will judge the world in rightconsness , by the man christ jesus whose commands we obey in tenderness ; and there we know we shall have true judgment without respect of persons , there our hats will not be looked at before the almighty , but the action and transgression , and who hath served god , and who hath not served him ; for christ hath told you before hand what he will say to them that visits him not in prison , where he is made manifest in his brethren : then what will become of them that casts them into prison for tenderness towards god , for obeying his dctring , and keeps to yea and nay in their communications according to his words — and so those things we leave to the general day , though we can say the lord for give you that deth thus persecute in if it be his will freely from our hearts , for we do you nor no man harm , but seek the good and peace of all men , and for this cause for obeying the truth we do suffer . g. f. the end . the tryal of roger earl of castlemaine for high treason in conspiring the death of the king, the subversion of the government, and introducing of popery and arbitrary power : before the lord chief justice scroggs &c. at the king's bench bar at westminster the th of june where he was acquitted. castlemaine, roger palmer, earl of, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of roger earl of castlemaine for high treason in conspiring the death of the king, the subversion of the government, and introducing of popery and arbitrary power : before the lord chief justice scroggs &c. at the king's bench bar at westminster the th of june where he was acquitted. castlemaine, roger palmer, earl of, - . england and wales. court of king's bench. p. printed for s.g. and n.e. and are to be sold by randal taylor, london : . reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng charles -- ii, -- king of england, - . trials (treason) -- england. popish plot, . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion by vertue of an order to me granted by the lords spiritual and temporal in parliament assembled , dated on thursday the th of octob. ; i do appoint randal taylor , near stationers hall , to print this trial of roger earl of castlemaine , and that no other person or persons print the same . jo. combe . london , januar. . - . the tryal of roger earl of castlemaine for high treason , in conspiring the death of the king , the subversion of the government , and introducing of popery and arbitrary power . before the lord chief justice scroggs , &c. at the king's bench bar at westminster , the th june : where he was acquitted . london , printed for s. g and n. e. and are to be sold by randal taylor near stationers-hall , . the tryal of roger earl of castlemaine . roger palmer esque earl of castlemaine in the kingdom of ireland , having been arraigned at the kings bench bar the sixteenth of june , for high treason : to which he pleaded not guilty , &c. on wednesday the th of june , being appointed for his trial , the court being sate , and the usual formalities perform'd , the lieutenant of the tower delivered him into court , and then the said court proceeded as followeth . clerk of the crown , cryar , make proclamation . proclamation for silence . cryer , o yes ! our soveraign lord the king doth strictly charge and command all manner of persons to keep silence upon pain of imprisonment . o yes ! if any one can inform our soveraign lord the king , the kings serjeant at law , the kings attourney general , or this inquest , now to be taken of the high treason , whereof roger palmer esq ; earl of castlemain in the kingdom of ireland , stands indicted , let them come forth and they shall be heard ; for the prisoner stands at the bar upon his deliverance . clerk of the crown , cryer , make an o yes . cryer , o yes ! you good men that are empannelled to enquire , between our soveraign lord the king and roger palmer esq ; earl of castlemain within the kingdom of ireland , answer to your names clerk of the crown , roger palmer esq ; earl of castlemain in the kingdom of ireland , hold up thy hand . these good men that were lately called and now here appear , are to pass between our soveraign lord the king and you upon your life or death , if you challenge any of them , you must speak as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they are sworn . jury . sir john cutler knight and baronet . sir reginald foster baronet . henry herriott esq richard cheney esq thomas johnson esq john robert's esq francis dorrington esq hugh squire esq charles good esq john pulford esq edward claxton esq francis mayhew gent. cryer , o yes , our soveraign lord the king doth strictly charge and command all manner of persons to keep silence upon pain of imprisonment . c. of the crown . roger palmer esq ; earl of castlemain in the kingdom of ireland , hold up your hand . you gentlemen of the jury that are now sworn look upon the prisoner and hearken to his charge . you shall understand that he stands indicted by the name of roger palmer esq ; earl of castlemain in the kingdom of ireland ; for that he as a false traytor against our most illustrious and excellent prince and lord , charles the second , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. and his natural lord ; not having the fear of god before his eyes , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , his cordial love , true due and natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our said soveraign lord the king ought to bear towards him , altogether withdrawing , and contriving , and with all his might intending , to disturb the peace and common tranquility of this kingdom , and to bring and put our soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction , and alter the true worship of god within this kingdom established to the superstition of the romish church , and to stir up and move war against our said soveraign lord the king within this realm of england , and to subvert the government thereof , the twentieth day of june in the thirtieth year of the reign of our said soveraign lord , charles the second , of england , scotland , france and ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c. at the parish of st. giles in the fields in the county of midd. with divers other false traitors , to the jurors unknown , did traiterously imagine and intend the killing , death and final destruction of our said lord the king , and to change and alter and utterly subvert the ancient government of this kingdom , and to depose and wholly to deprive our said lord the king of his crown and government of this realm of england , and to extirpate the true protestant religion : and to accomplish and fulfil the same most wicked treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid , the said roger palmer esq ; earl of castlemain in the kingdom of ireland , and other false traitors , to the jurors unknown , the same twentieth day of june , in the thirtieth year aforesaid , with force and arms , in the parish of st. giles in the fields aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , advisedly , devilishly , maliciously , and traiterously , did assemble , unite , and gather themselves together , and then and there , advisedly , devilishly , maliciously , subtily , and traiterously did consult and agree , to bring our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction , and to deprive him of his crown and government of england , and to introduce and establish the religion of the church of rome in this kingdom ; and the sooner to fulfil and accomplish the same most wicked treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid , he then and there did falsly , maliciously , and trayterously promise divers great rewards , and did pay divers sums of money to several persons unknown ; and then and there falsly and traiter ously did write divers notes , to incite several other persons to accomplish the treasons aforesaid , against the life of our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and contrary to the form of the statute in such case made and provided . clerk of the crown , upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and hath pleaded thereunto not guilty , and for his tryal he puts himself upon god and his countrey , which countrey you are . your charge is to inquire , whether he be guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? if you find him guilty , you are to inquire , what goods and chattles , lands and tenements , he had at the time when the high treason was committed , or at any time since ? if you find him not guilty , you are to say so and no more ; and hear your evidence . cryer , o yes , if any one will give evidence on the behalf of our soveraign lord the king , against roger palmer esq ; earl of castlemain in the kingdom of ireland , let him come forth and he shall be heard ; for the prisoner now stands at the bar upon his deliverance . m. bonithon , may it please you my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner at the bar stands indicted for high treason ; for that he intended to disturb the peace within this kingdom establish'd , and to destroy and alter the government , and to bring the king to death and final destruction , and to alter our religion to the superstition of the church of rome , did on the twentieth day of june in the thirtieth year of the reign of our soveraign lord the king , consult and treat with several other persons , and that he with these persons , did agree to destroy the king and alter the religion , and cause rebellion ; and further to accomplish these treasons , he did promise and agree to pay several accompts and deposite several sums of money , and did likewise write and publish several books . to this he hath pleaded not guilty . if we prove these things , you are to find him guilty . att. gen. may it please your lordship , my lord castlemain here stands indicted for high treason ; that is , for designing to murther the king and alter the government and law ; and this is but a parcel of the plot , which hath been carrying on a great while , and many persons tried for it ; and some have suffer'd and been executed for it . and , my lord , we will give your lordship evidence , this my lord castlemain hath at several times conspired the death of the king , and that he hath reproved persons for not doing it . and , my lord , he hath been in consults among jesuits , where these matters have been carried on , and this whole design hath been negotiated . and my lord castlemain hath been consenting and agreeing to all these matters . and , my lord , when the trials were in hand , it did appear upon those trials there were many persons brought from st. omers to be witnesses against dr. oates , to prove he was not in england at that time when he said in his depositions that he did consult with the jesuits ; and these persons my lord castlemain had the management and instruction of at that time . and all along at the old baily my lord castlemain was present there , and did countenance these persons , and was an intercessor for them . these are but branches and circumstances , what is material we will prove by witnesses . art. gen. come doctor oates , pray tell what you know . prisoner , my lord , i have a long time wished for this day ; and your lordship may very well remember it . the reason why i have so much desired a trial , is because i thought it a means , and the best means , and the only means to shew to the world my innocency , and also to shew to the world how much i have been calumniated by this charge . l. c. j. what have you to say ? have you any thing to say against doctor oates ? prisoner , no , my lord. i only say this , here i am a prisoner at the bar , and i have pleaded not guilty , and throw my self upon this court ; and therefore i am very willing to hear what this man will say . d. oates , my lord , i humbly move the court. whether or no , i may use my own method ? l. c. j. give your charge , we direct nothing . d. oates , my lord , in the year , i was sent ever into spain by the jesuits that were here in england ; where i remained for several months , and transacted business for them ; and my lord , i returned from spain in november , and brought several letters from some english fathers there ; among which there was one directed for my lord castlemain . my lord , i did not deliver the letter to him , but my lord , the contents of the letter were to this effect — l. c. j. how came you to see the contents ? d. oates , my lord , i was at the writing of the letter , and so i did see the contents of it . l. c. j. did the priests shew it to you ? or did you only see it yourself ? d. oates , no , my lord ; it was shewn me by them : and the contents of this letter were , that the fathers in spain were very zealous to concur with the fathers here in england in the design , which was the subversion of the government , altering the religion , and the destruction of the king. l. c. j. was that in the letter ? d. oates , no , my lord , not in words at length . l. c. j. what was , as far as you know , the very expression of the letter ? d. oates , the word design , my lord. l. c. j. only that , to promote the design ? d. oates , yes my lord : and under that word we did comprehend all those things , that is , as we usually took it among one another . l. c. j. did you deliver this letter to my lord castlemain ? d. oates , no , my lord , i did not deliver this letter ; but when i went to st. omers we received an account from my lord castlemain of his receipt of this letter . l. c. j. what did you do with it ? d. oates , i left it with the provincial , my lord , who was then mr. strange . l. c. j. was it not given to you to give it him ? d. oates , it was given me to give the lord castlemain , but being then a stranger to him , i was willing to send one of his own messengers with it . l. c. j. where was my lord ? d. oates , i can't tell , my lord , i did not see him then . i went over to st. omers in december , or the latter end of november . l. c. j. where were you when you gave this letter to the provincial ? d. oates , i was in london , my lord. l. c. j. where did you receive this letter ? d. oates , in spain , my lord , at valledolid , of one armstrong . l. c. j. who was it directed to ? d. oates , to my lord castlemain ; but i did not then know him , and so i gave it the provincial , my lord , i went over to st. omers in the latter end of november or the beginning of december , and after i had been there some few days , there did arrive a packquet from london to st. omers , in which there was a letter from my lord castlemain . l. c. j. to whom ? d. oates , to the fathers of the society of st. omers , in which my lord castlemain gave them an account of a letter that he had lately received from spain . l. c. j. how did you know the contents of this letter ; d. oates , my lord , i was privy to their letters . l. c. j. was you acquainted with my lord castlemains hand ? d. oates , my lord , i will give you an account of that , i did not know it then , but only as it was generally said among us . l. c. j. how was it subscribed ? d. oates , castlemain , my lord , and sometimes , my lord , he subscribed himself palmer . l. c. j. how many letters have you seen ? d. oates , several letters , l. c. j. was this the first ? d. oates , this was the first as near as i can remember . and , my lord , he gave an account in that letter , that he had received a letter from spain , and was glad the fathers in spain had so good an opinion of his integrity in the caused l. c. j. did he say from whom he had received it ? d. oates , my lord , i can't remember that , that he had received a letter i am certain . l. c. j. do you know what the purport of the letter was ? d. oates , yes , my lord , i will give you a plain account . my lord , he wrote he had received a letter from spain , and that he was glad the fathers in spain had so great confidence in his integrity . and , my lord , in march there came another letter from my lord castlemain : for my lord castlemain had left some things at leige , wherein he did complain of the fathers , that they made no more haste for to send his things to him ; some odd things he had left there , and , my lord , he gave an account of a certain letter he received from the rector of liege , whose advice he did not like , for the rector of leige and the rector of gant were mighty zealous that the secular clergy should be personally present in this affair . l. c. j. did he write so ? i would have you say what he writ . d. oates , my lord , i have told you , he gave an account that he was unwilling to have the secular clergy engaged , because they were a loose sort of men , and of no principles , and therefore he thought them not fit to be trusted . my lord , in april there was a consult : i came over from st. omers in april , some three or four , or five daies before the consult , i am not able to guess at the particular time , but it was near upon the consult . my lord , this consult was divided into several companies after they had met at the white-horse tavern , wherein they did some things that did relate to the order , as to send father cary to rome . after that they divided themselves into several companies , wherein they did agree in ordering the death of the king. l. c. j. you were by ? d. oates , my lord , i was imployed by them to give an account of the sense of one company to another . l. c. j. were you by when they concluded the death of the king. d. oates , yes , my lord , i was then present . l. c. j. did you sign among the rest ? d. oates , my lord , i don't come here to accuse my self . l. c. j. you are pardoned if it be so . d. oates , my lord , i did consent . my lord , in this consult they met together , and an oath of secrecy was administred , my lord castlemain was there too within some few days after the consult , that is , the gentleman whom i accuse for treason , i say , did come , and enquired about the copies of some letters for to be sent up into germany , and did desire that an agreement between them and the monks might be made up , there being a difference between them ; so that they might have the assistance of that order to carry on the design . l. c. j. what gentleman was this ? d. oates , it was the prisoner , my lord , at the bar. l. c. j. would the gentleman let you hear him say , that he desired assistance to carry on the design , and you a stranger to him ? d. oates , my lord , i do not think i was a stranger to him so much as he was a stranger to me , he knew i was their servant and employed by them . l. c. j. would he say in your hearing , that he desired their assistance to carry on the design , and you did not know him ? d. oates , my lord , i did not well know him at that time , and i brought several messages from the fathers , and from mr. langhorn , and i gave them an account before him . l. c. j. how often had you seen him ? d. oates , that time he was there , my lord. l. c. j. how many messages had you ? d. oates , i will tell your lordship where i had been , i had been at mr. simmonds's , who was then confessor to the earl of aurundel , who is since turn'd protestant ; confessor to him as he pretended , and we looked upon him to be . and i had been at father cain's , who was in turnmill-street , and i had been , my lord , at mr. langhorn's in the temple , and some other places which i do not now remember , it is so long since . so , my lord , i gave them account of my business , and i did see that gentleman , but did not know his name , till , my lord , in june . l. c. j. when was this ? d. oates , this was , my lord , as near as i can remember in may. l. c. j. so you did not know his name till three weeks or a month after ? d. oates , no , my lord , it was in the latter part of june . j. jones , you saw him first in may ? d. oates , yes , my lord. j. jones , and you did not see him till after the consult ? i don't ask you whether he was there or no , but whether you saw him before the consult was signed ? d. oates , no , my lord. l. c. j. how did you come to know his name ? d. oates , my lord , in june mr. langworth and i were going over lincolns-inn-fields , intending to go to the fountain in fullers rents , because there was a sort of drink that he loved , and we were to drink together , it was in the evening , and so in our way as we went , we met with my lord castlemain , whom mr. langworth did salute , and then we came back to mr. fenwick's chamber . l. c. j. with whom did you come back ? d. oates , with my lord castlemain . l. c. j. did you know his name ? d. oates , mr. langworth told me , it was the prisoner at the bar , my lord , and the prisoner at the bar was giving an account of some letters he had received out of the countrey ; and mr. langworth was giving him an account how forward the rector of leige and the rector of gant were in offering to have the secular clergy engaged with them , and some other discourse they had which i can't remember , but about the design . l. c. j. what did they talk of at that time ? you must as near as you can tell us what discourse they had . d. oates , i will give your lordship this , they were speaking of the transactions of the consult , and how unanmious the fathers were in signing the consult . l. c. j. who was speaking of it ? d. oates , mr. langworth and mr. fenwick , and my lord castlemain was present . l. c. j. they did talk of it ? d. oates , yes . l. c. j. did they mention the particulars of that consult ? d. oates , yes . l. c. j. what was that ? d. oates , laying aside the king. l. c. j. and what else ? d. oates , and bringing in the popish religion , the catholick religion , i speak their own words . l. c. j. and this discourse they had in the hearing of my lord castlemain . d. oates , yes , and my lord castlemain said , now he should be revenged for the injuries done to him . l. c. j. go on . d. oates , i have nothing else to say of my lord castlemain , that i can think of at present l. c. j. now my lord , you may ask him what questions you think fit . prisoner , mr. oates , repeat your journey again . d. oates , my lord , i say this , i went a ship-board in april , i returned from valledolid in november , i arrived in london in november , and staid in london some time , and then i went to st. omers in november or december new stile or old stile , i staid at st. omers , from thence i went to watton , then , my lord , in the month of march we went to leige , and returned back again : in the month of april , we came hither , some time before the consult , and staid here some time after . prisoner , what time were you at leige , pray sir ? d. oates , in march . j. jones , the end of . d. oates , no , my lord , we were at st. omers again in march. l. c. j. you returned in march / d. oates , yes , my lord , the stile doth so alter . prisoner , that is before lady-day ? d. oates , yes , my lord , it was before lady-day , we arrived here in london in may or in april , and we staid here some few days . prisoner , when did you come over again , pray sir ? d. oates , my lord , it is now two years ago or better , and i can't remember every particular time . my lord , we were here in may. prisoner , i will ask him as many questions as i think reasonable , and when , my lord , i do desire times and he can't tell the times , he must tell me so . l. c. j. mr. oates , answer my lord what questions he asks you . d. oates , i will tell my lord , castlemain as near as i can remember , my lord. prisoner , mr. oates , when was it you came over ? d. oates , really it was some few days before the consult . prisoner , how many days do you think ? d. oates , really i can't remember . l. c. j. i suppose you have your memorials . d. oates , really , my lord , no. l. c. j. have you any thing more to ask ? prisoner , yes , my lord , a great many questions . were you present , mr. oates , pray , at that consult , when i consented to the kings death ? was you by ? d. oates , i was present at the consult ; but i do not charge you to be at the consult . l. c. j. he asks you where it was he agreed to it ? d. oates , at mr. fenwick's chamber , i remember it was about seven or eight a clock that we were going over lincolns-inn-fields . l. c. j. how long might you be at fenwicks ? d. oates , it was about or a clock i came away . prisoner , when you met me in lincolns-inn-fields , was i in a coach or on foot , or was any body with me ? d. oates , i can't say whether your lordship had a man with you , or no. l. c. j. was there any body with him ? d. oates , i did not take notice of that . l. c. j. you were two hours together , pray let me ask you this question , what was your discourse about ? d. oates , that was part of the discourse , my lord. l. c. j. what ? you have given us a very short account of it in four lines : you were two hours together , what was the main of your discourse about ? d. oates , my lord , i will give you as plainly as i can , the discourse at that time . c. l. j. pray let us know what the main of your discourse was about . d. oates , one part of their discourse was about the revenues of their colledges , and how they had suffer'd by the french's taking st. omers , and what losses they had sustained by reason of the change of government by the conquest ; for the crown of spain had entailed on the colledge of st. omers five or six hundred a year , for the maintaining the foundation of their house , or foundation rent , and it was taken away by reason of the conquest that france had made over the spanish dominions there ; and they were consulting how they should write to father le chese to be an instrument to move the french king to restore this annuity , that was a settlement entailed upon it . l. c. j. how came you into this discourse ? d. oates , this was after the other discourse . l. c. j. how came you to discourse this affair here in england ? d. oates , i will tell your lordship as near as i can remember : when we met in lincolns-inn-fields , mr. langworth recommended me to my lord castlemain , and bad me take notice of him . i can't say this is my lord castlemain , but this is that man i saw . l. c. j. did he call him by his name ? d. oates , he told him that i was such a one , and that i was serviceable to them . and upon our way as we went to mr. fenwick's chamber , he inquired into the causes of my coming over so soon again , for he said i went over but last month. said he , how came it to pass he came over so soon again ? saith he , we wanted him to do some business for us . and there were more particulars of the transactions of the consult mentioned to my lord castlemain . l. c. j. how did they bring in the particulars of that design ? d. oates , this is as near as i can remember . l. c. j. how came they to talk of laying aside the king and bringing in the catholick religion ? d. oates , my lord , after they had given an account of the transactions of the consult : this was one part of the consult . l. c. j. pray how came they to bring it in , in discourse ? d. oates , my lord , they spake of the particulars of it . l. c. j. i wonder what introduced the particulars : was it to acquaint him with those particulars ? d. oates , my lord , i have nothing to say to that , they were things so generally talked of by those of the jesuitical party , that when ever they met , they scarce did talk of any thing else but of that , and so they did at this time . l. c. j. pray tell me the whole discourse , as you can remember , that relates to this time . d. oates , my lord , i have told your lordship , we met with my lord castlemain in lincolns-inn-fields . i have told you , my lord , that we went to mr. fenwicks , i have told you , my lord , that after some discourse ( how it was introduced ; i cannot be positive , but as near as i can remember ) they were speaking of my going over and coming again so soon , my going from the consult to st. omers and returning again into england so soon , and so one word brought in another . l. c. j. did you know then that my lord castlemain had ever heard of this matter before ? d. oates , my lord , i don't know ; but i am morally certain as to my self ; but i can't swear he did ? att. general , did he speak of it to him as a stranger to it ? d. oates , no. j. jones , by the letter you spake of he knew before . l. c. j. answer my brother's question , was the letter you had seen , before or after that discourse at fenwicks ? d. oates , my lord , that was after the consult . l. c. j. then you know he did know of the design ? d. oates , my lord , i think not of the particulars of the design . l. c. j. that is , he knew of this design for the main . when you talk of the design you always mean the consult ? d. oates , no , my lord , when we say the consult , we mean what was agreed on at that consult , not concerning these matters that were done six months before . l. c. j. mr. oates , tell me when you mention the design and the consult . do not you alwaies mean the death of the king and the bringing in popery ? d. oates , yes , my lord , but the terms are not convertible : for , my lord , when we say the consult , there was something else done , my lord , as that consult which had not an absolute relation to the design , and of that i will give your lordship one instance , as the sending father cary to rome , which they did in some three years . l. c. j. some trivial matters concerning their own government , but the thing you talk of is the same consult and design . d. oates , when i speak of the word design , it was so taken among us , and so received by my lord castlemain . l. c. j. how can you say it was so received by him ? d. oates , because he used the same word , and answered us according to our interpretation . j. jones , my lord , he speaks of the design thus , there was a design for the killing the king , there was a design of the priests and fathers for it ; but , saith he , afterwards there was a general consultation , and this design came to be form'd by this general consult , which my lord castlemain , as he thinks , had no knowledge of till the time they met together in lincolns-inn fields , and afterward went and discours'd about it . l. c. j. it is very fair , that he doth not know that my lord castlemain had any knowledge before the consult of this business ; but , he says , the design upon which the consult was , that he might know , which was to destroy the king , and bring in popery . and he says , my lord castlemain did understand this word design in that sense they did ; because he answered their letters according to their interpretation of it . how do you know he understood the word design in its utmost capacity as you understood it ? d. oates , when we have our words , we have our keys whereby we understand them . but i will answer this question to the satisfaction of the gentlemen of the jury . my lord , he hath many times spoken in his letters of introducing the popish religion , and annext it to the word design of promoting the catholick religion here in england . l. c. j. now methinks you have brought the word design to something else than killing the king. d. oates , yes , my lord , the subversion of religion and the government . l. c. j. did he put in government ? did he talk of bringing in the catholick religion and altering the government . d. oates , no , my lord , i won't say that . l. c. j. when we are examining concerning mens lives , we must be careful of their words in such matters . d. oates , one part of my evidence i have omitted , your lordship did ask me how i came to know my lord castlemain's hand . my lord , somtimes we received letters from him subscribed palmer , and sometimes subscribed castlemain , sometimes some other name which i may not remember ; and they were generally received as from him . and i have seen my lord castlemain write , for that night , as near as i remember , it was post-night . l. c. j. at fenwick's chamber ? d. oates , at fenwick's chamber , and my lord castlemain did write a letter , subscribed it and sealed it , and i was fain to go to the general post-house , it was so late . j. jones , what did he subscribe then ? d. oates , no , my lord , i saw no more than the superscription . l. c. j. then you did not see his name to it ? d. oates , no , my lord. my lord castlemain did ask , why he had not answers to such and such letters ? for several letters i had seen which were not of much moment . l. c. j. i wish you had one that was of moment . d. oates , it cannot be expected , my lord , that i should have them . l. c. j. my lord , ask him what you please . prisoner , you say , mr. oates , you received letters from me in spain . d. oates , i never said so . prisoner , you saw letters in spain from me ? d. oates , yes , i have seen letters in spain that were from you . prisoner , look you , mr. oates , pray let me ask you a question , you said this , that you did not know me when you met me at the consult ? d. oates , what consult ? prisoner , at fenwick's chamber . d. oates , i did not know you at wild-house . prisoner , there you met me first . d. oates , there i met the prisoner at the bar. l. c. j. he says he did not know you at wild-house , but he came to know you by langworth in lincolns-inn-fields , and then you went together to fenwick's chamber . prisoner , mr. oates , did not you say , that at wild-house you did not know me , nor i you ? l. c. j. he says he can't tell whether you knew him or no , but he did not know you . prisoner , was i familiar with you ? d. oates , no , my lord. prisoner , did i talk treason at wild-house ? d. oates , it was the discourse of the day , but i do not remember every particular of the discourse , but i remember what your opinion was concerning the rector of liege and the rector of gant. prisoner , was there any thing about killing the king at wild-house ? d. oates , really my lord , i can't remember , i wont charge it there because i am upon my oath ; though i morally believe , as to my self , that there was discourse bad enough there . prisoner , mr. oates , pray will you hear me , then the acquaintance i had with you was by mr. langworth , and then we went that night to fenwick's chamber , and there we staid very long , and there we had all this discourse ? d. oates , yes . prisoner , look mr. oates , was there any by besides mr. langworth and mr. fenwick ? d. oates , really , my lord , i don't remember any body was by , unless a maid might come to fill a cup of drink or so . prisoner , mr. oates , pray mr. oates , did you and i ever meet together after that time ? d. oates , really , my lord , i can't be exact in that . prisoner , did you never see me nor discourse with me after that time ? d. oates , i cannot recollect my self as to that i cannot remember . l. c. j. he does not remember that ever he was with you afterwards ? prisoner , you don't know whether ever i discours'd with you afterwards ? d. oates , i don't remember . prisoner , very well , mr. oates , look , you , sir , you don't remember that i ever had any discourse with you after that time ; and no body was by but mr. fenwick and mr. langworth ? d. oates , as i remember . prisoner , was not there another priest there ? d. oates , there is no body occurs to my memory . prisoner , mr. oates , you brought me letters from spain . d. oates , i brought a letter from spain directed to ●ou in . prisoner , was i in town or out of town ? d. oates , i delivered it to the provincial . prisoner , you went over to liege ; did not you see me there ? d. oates , no , my lord , i did not see you there , i only went to wait upon a gentleman that was a priest afterwards , that went to take orders . prisoner , did you not see me at liege ? d. oates , no , my lord. prisoner , you were at liege , did you stay there ? d. oates , i lay there one night . att. general , have you any thing to ask , my lord ? prisoner , presently , my lord. j. jones , it is very reasonable my lord should question you . you own him to be the lord castlemain , when was it you did first discover this business concern●●g my lord castlemain ? d. oates , my lord , i did discover my lord castlemain to be in the plot , the last sessions of the long ●arliament , and i accused my lord castlemain this ●rinity term was twelve months , and my lord castlemain was committed : for when mr. dangerfield came in and accused my lord castlemain , i brought a charge a second time against my lord castlemain . j. jones , did you discover all this then ? d. oates , i did charge him for having an hand in the design in general . j. jones , to the parliament ? d. oates . yes , to the parliament . prisoner , you say when i assented to the kings death in fenwick's chamber , that i said , i should now find a time to be reveng'd . d. oates , pray , my lord , don't put me to mention such reflecting evidence . prisoner , when you were before the king , you did in pursuance of this speak of a divorce . d. oates , my lord , i will give evidence as to that if that my lord comes to be indicted for his priesthood . l. c. j. my lord may ask what questions he shall think fit . att. general , my lord says he has said it , and what he said in another place he is not to treat now of . prisoner , suppose i can prove him an ill man in any place , is not that fit to be spoken of here ? since he hath brought the king upon the stage , and since he hath accused me before the king and your lordships of a devorce , i ask him whether he saw it ? d. oates , i will tell your lordship what i said as to the divorce , i heard it discours'd of generally among the fathers beyond sea , and this was some other part of the discourse at wild-house ; and i heard my lord castlemain say that he had been at great charg to carry on that business of the divorce . prisoner , at wild-house ? d. oates , at wild-house . now , my lord , i took no notice of it , because it was not my business . but , my lord , after that there was a priests chamber that was searched , and there was the whole case stated ; now what is become of the state of that case , my lord , i cannot tell . l. c. j. by whom was that case stated ? d. oates , there was a letter found , whereby my lord castlemain should have the matter directed , in order to the carrying on the divorce that was to be between him and his wise barbara . prisoner , did not you tell the king that you saw the divorce in strange's hand ? d. oates , my lord , i will tell you this , i gave an account to the king , that i saw in strange's hand an acconnt of a divorce that was between my lord castlemain and barbara dutcheis of cleaveland . recorder , my lord , if he ask too many questions that don't relate to this matter , it is impossible to give an account of every particular . prisoner , my lords , i humbly submit this case . recorder , ask him what you said to such a man upon the ninth of august was twelve month , must he give an account ? l. c. j. he must say he does not know . recorder , indeed it is reasonable that my lord castlemain should ask him some questions , and that mr. oates should give him an account . att. general , my lord , will you give me leave to speak ? if he may ask questions about such forreign matters as this , no man can justify himself . l. c. j. this is not so mighty remote but use may be made of it . att. general , if he should ask whether he were such a day at such an house , and tell him yes , and mistake the day ; any man may be catch'd thus . prisoner , how can a man be catch'd in the truth ? att. general , my lord castlemain may , if he can , catch him in any thing he gives in evidence here . prisoner , my lord , if your lordship over-rule me , i will say no more . mr. atturney says i come to catch him , i confess i do . att. general , you should not ask him forreign questions . l. c. j. he asks a plain question , why do you labour so much that he should not ask , whether he had seen the divorce ? my lord castlemain , i have askt the question for you , whether or no he said he had seen the divorce ? and he does not remember whether he said so or no. att. general , my lord , i think with your lordships leave , that he is not bound to answer questions , that are not to the evidence . l. c. j. if so be he would come to make application , it may be well enough . att. general , i say it for the method of the evidence , my lord , that i would not have these excursions . prisoner , i desire your lordship that i may say out what i have to say . i say this , that no man in the world that speaks truth can be catch'd , neither will mr. atturney suffer me to catch him . att. general , i say you have liberty to catch him in any thing that doth belong to the evidence . prisoner , i come to shew you the fitness of it to this affair . he comes and tells you , among other consults , of wild-house , and my meeting him in lincolns-inn-fields , the recommendations of mr. langworth , and going to fenwicks chamber , where we talk'd of altering the government , and my assenting to kill the king : and since you have brought the king upon the stage , i will refresh your memory a little , since you talk of revenging my self , look you if you did not mention a divorce to the king and also to my lord chief justice . att. general , my lord , you are under a mistake . prisoner , pray give me leave , mr. atturney . att. general , you make such excursions into forreign matters . prisoner , mr. oates , you did say you saw a divorce , i ask you whether you saw a divorce , and where , or whether you said so ? l. c. j. he says , he does not remember he said so . d. oates , i do not remember whether i said so or no , my lord , i have it down but indeed i did not set my thoughts a-work . att. general , he hath given you an answer that may satisfie you . j. ●aymond , he hath papers wherein he hath entred memorandums to refresh his memory , but these papers he hath not by him . l. c. j. then he may say he hath not . att. general , that he hath already , my lord. l. c. j. have you any more to say ? prisoner , i have , my lord , if you will give me leave to write down two words . prisoner , mr. oates , you told my lords the judges that i did say , i was at great expence about a divorce . dr. oates , yes , prisoner , that is very well , mr. oates . att. general , call mr. dangerfield . [ d. oates was going out of the court. prisoner , may mr. oates go out of the court. court , yes , yes . d. oates , i will be within call , my lord. prisoner , i only submit it to your lordships , whether or no a witness may go out of the court ? d. oates , i will stay then . att. general , swear mr. dangerfield . prisoner , pray stay . l. c. j. why so ? prisoner , here i am a prisoner , my lords , and submit it to your lordships , whether or no mr. dangerfield , who hath had the censure of this court , may be a witness ? whether or no council shall shew reasons to your lordship , whether he may speak or no. j. jones , you must shew your exceptions that you have against him . prisoner , my exception is this , that he was convicted of felony , that he broke prison , and was outlawed upon it . besides this , my lord , he is a stigmatick , hath stood in the pillory and was burnt in the hand . now i humbly beseech your lordships , that you will be pleased to hear what my council can say , and then , my lords , if your over-rule , i shall give place with all my heart . l. c. j. i think it reasonable , if you desire council , that they should be allowed to speak . att. general , if your lordship please , when my lords exceptions appear . j. jones , what are your exceptions , my lord ? prisoner , that i told you , before-hand , he is an outlawed person , he is convicted of felony . j. jones , when was he out-lawed ? att. general , in the th . year of the king , and we say he hath a pardon in the th year of the king. l. c. j. how do you prove he was burnt in the hand , my lord ? att. general , when was he burnt in the hand ? prisoner , call briscoe . att. general , we bring a pardon unto that , and that will restore him . [ a record produced . att. general , that record we confess , shew the pardon , shew the pardon . l. c. j. now go to that for which he was burnt in the hand . att. general , here is a pardon that extends to them all . [ the pardon read ; decimo tertio die januarii anno regni , &c. l. c. j. this does not do it . att. general , yes , my lord , it does . l. c. j. is that the newgate pardon ? att. general , yes , my lord. l. c. j. we have had it in the court. att general , yes , my lord. l. c. j. and felony and outlawry is in it ▪ att. general , yes , my lord. l. c. j. where is that for which he was burnt in the hand ? att. general , for that we give an answer ; he was received to the benefit of his clergy , and he was burnt in the hand , and his pardon is after that too . l. c. j. so it is . att. general , then his pardon answers them all . l. c. j. now you see , my lord , you think dangerfield ought not to be a witness , who hath gone through so many pnnishments , out-lawed for felony , and burnt in the hand for felony ; mr atturney makes answer , we have a pardon , and by that he is restored , as he says , to be a witness again . if you desire council to speak to this point , whether or no a man branded and burnt in the hand for felony , and afterwards is pardoned , is capable of being a witness ? i see no reason to deny it you . att. general , if there be matter for council to speak in that case , we must submit , if your lordship make it a doubt . l. c. j. i do for my own part ; in this i am clear , if a man were convicted of perjury , that no pardon will make him a witness , because it is to do the subject wrong . a pardon does not make a man an honest man , it takes off reproaches ; and the law is wise in that , the law will not suffer endless contumelies to be heaped upon men , nor to be call'd perjured rascalls , and such things . it is only to prevent upbraiding language , which tends to the breach of the peace . but in my opinion , if a man stands convicted in court , for perjury , no pardon can ever make him a witness and set him upright again . but that is a different case from this , we are upon this single case , whether a man that is burnt in the hand for felony , whether a pardon can set him right or no ? for this i make more doubtful than the other : for a man may be , that hath committed a robery , would be afraid to forswear himself ; for though one is a great , the other is a greater sin , and that in the subject matter ; which considered , i think it reasonable to allow my lord council to speak to that single point , that a person being burnt in the hand for felony , and afterwards pardoned , whether he is capable of being a witness ? prisoner , then i do name mr. jones ; mr. saunders , and mr. darnal . l. c. j. very well . [ mr. saunders was call'd , but was not in court. l. c. j. are you prepared , mr. jones , to speak ? mr. jones , no , my lord. j. jones , my lord , do you except against that one particular ? prisoner , i stand upon both ; his being pillored and burnt in the hand . l. c. j. will you admit that he stood in the pillory ? att. general , i know nothing of it . l. c. j. i will tell you , my lord , you will see whether it be necessary to protract this or no ; for your council will hardly undertake to argue unprepared about this point , and if the tryal should be adjourn'd , it would be very troublesome . i think it the duty of my place to discharge my conscience for you and against you as the matter shall fall out ; and if so be that you should insist upon it ; and he be capable of being a witness , supposing it so ; yet i must say , you may give in the evidence of every record of the conviction of any sort of crimes he hath been guilty of , and they shall be read. they say last day there were sixteen , if there were an hundred they should be read against him , and they shall all go to invalidate any credit that is to be given to any thing he shall swear . prisoner , my lord , i humbly submit my self to your lordship . sixteen we have , i bring but six . you shall have them mr. atturney when you please . l. c. j. my lord , if you think it worth you while to put it to council , to argue , whether he may be a witness , or whether you think it may be as well for you , supposing he be a witness , the producing those things against him , or the records of those crimes that he hath been convicted of ; whether that will be as well for you or no , i leave it to your self to do as you think best ? mr. darnal , i conceive with submission to your lordship that he cannot be a witness . l. c. j. are you prepared to speak to it now ? mr. darnal , my lord , i am ready to offer somewhat to your lordship why i conceive he ought not to be sworn : but i desire first that the pardon may be read , because many persons and offences are comprized in it . l. c. j. it is a pardon for felonies and out-lawries of felony in general . mr. darnal , if the persons and their offences are severally and sufficiently pardoned , then , my lord , i will proceed unto the other point . j. jones , the whole is good . d. darnal , then , my lord , i conceive , notwithstanding this pardon , mr. dangerfield ought not to be sworn , and that no person attainted of felony ( though pardon'd ) can be a witness . my lord , it hath been adjudged in henry the th . quadragessimo primo , that a man attainted of felony ( as mr. dangerfield is ) though he be afterwards pardoned , cannot be sworn of a jury . my lord , the same question hath been resolved since , in nono jacobi . it is reported in mr. brownlow's and goldsborough's reports , folio tricessimo quarto . and my lord cook in mr. bulstrode's second reports , . in brown and crashaw's case , is of the same opinion . he says , a man attainted and pardon'd , cannot serve upon any inquest , and that by the same reason the testimony of such a man for a witness is in all cases to be rejected . l. c. j. who says so ? mr. darnal , my lord cook. l. c. j. men do not slight my lord cook. where do you say that is ? mr. darnal , it is in mr. bulstrode's second reports , in brown and crashaw's case , fo. . j. jones , but you should have brought these books hither . mr. darnal , i suppose sir they may be had in the hall. my lord cook gives this reason for it in that case , he saith , that notwithstanding his pardon he is not probus & legalis homo j. jones , that pardon was before any judgment it was a pardon of felony before any tryal or judgement ; but here is a conviction . mr. darnal , my lord cook puts the case there of a man attainted . and , my lord , induodecime jacobi , it is reported in brownlow's reports , folio . . j. raymond , which of his reports ? mr. darnal , i know but of one set out in his name alone , the other ( which is call'd the first part ) is sett out in his and goldsborough's name . i have mr. brownlow's reports here , and if your lordship please you may see it . l. c. j. what is the page ? mr. darnal , forty seven , my lord , the case there reported is , the king pardon'd a man attaint for giving a false verdict ; yet he shall not be at another time empannell'd upon any jury ; and the reason given there is , that though the punishment was pardon'd , yet the guilt remain'd . j. jones , that is a very short note , and not so much in the book as you have mentioned . mr. darnal , i writ it word for word out of the book , sir , and i am sure there is so much in my book . my lord , in mr. justice crooke's elizabeth , fol. . in shelborn's case , it is held , that though the king may pardon simony , yet he cannot enable a simoniack to retain a living . l. c. j. the act doth make him not capable . mr. darnal , i conceive , sir , it is upon the same reason , because the pardon cannot take away the guilt , though it may the punishment of the offence . j. raymond , he can't dispense with simony , he can't give a dispensation to take a living . mr. darnal , my lord , upon these resolutions and the reason of them , i humbly submit it to your lordship , whether mr. dangerfield ( having been attainted of felony , though he be since pardon'd ) can be a witness . att. general , my lord , with your lordships favour , this is quite contrary to the constant and general opinion , and contrary to the constant practice : for , my lord , with your lordships favour , when a man is pardon'd for any crime , if a man can't say he is a felon , or he is perjured , then he can't be reckoned so to any intent or purpose whatsoever . l. c. j. i told you before it is consonant to all the reason and law in the world , that a pardon should stop mens mouths from reviling speeches that signifie nothing : but it is one thing to say men shall not go reviling , that can have no consequent good , but which tends to the breach of the peace , and another thing to say he shall be liber . att. general , my lord , when the king gives him a pardon , it is as if he had never committed the offence . l. c. j. he may be outlawed , notwithstanding the kings pardon , and then it is not as if he had never committed the offence . j. jones , it restores him to wage battle , and it makes him liber & legalis homo : for if a man may wage battle , he is liber & legalis homo . att. general , then , my lord , if he be so , he shall be a witness : for my lord , in the point of perjury , a man that after a conviction of perjury had a pardon , hath been admitted several times . l. c. j. was the exception taken , mr. atturney ? att. general , yes , my lord , and he rejected before he had a pardon . j. raymond , how many men have been witnesses that have been convicted of felonies , after the kings have pardon'd them ? recorder , i will not adventure to say that there hath been a particular objection made , and so that the court hath had the debate of it : but i will undertake to give your lordship several instances of men that have been convicted , and the judges sitting there knew them to be so convicted , and did not take notice of it . j. raymond , i speak of witheringon particularly ? recorder , he was a witness , though every man did know that witherington was convicted . i begg your lordships leaves to speak it , that the judges themselves did know that he was convicted and had received sentence of death . sir f. w. the constant practices of the judges is a mighty conclusion . l. c. j. what think you , mr. atturney , if a man be convicted of felony , and afterwards hath a general pardon , is he a witness . att. general , yes , truly , my lord , it signifies the same thing , my lord , as to be a freeman again . j. jones , he cannot be of a jury , if he be attainted of felony , and the reason is because he is not probus & legalis homo : and why he should not as well be of a jury as a witness i cannot understand . att. general , there is a great deal of difference , my lord , a great many men may be admitted to be witnesses that cannot be admitted to be jury men . j. jones , shew me any man that is excluded from a jury and admitted to be a witness , except in the case of kindred . att. general , an hundred . l. c. j. shew me any man who being of a jury was excluded , and yet made a witness . att. general , a villian was not admitted to be a jury man , but a villain was always to be a witness , and that was a point of infamy . l. c. j. what infamy was contain'd in being a villain ? att. general , he was a criminal , he was not liber homo . l. c. j. but though he be not a freeman , he may be an honest man. recorder , my lord hobart says , a pardon takes away the guilt . l. c. j. it takes away guilt so far as he shall never be questioned ; but it does not set a man as if he had neuer offended . it cannot in reason be said , a man guilty of perjury is as innocent as if he had never been perjured . att. general , i say if a man be pardoned he is as if he were not guilty . l. c. j. if i were in my lord castlemain's case , i would submit it ; but when he hath given his testimony , my lord shall have liberty to give in the records against him of what crimes he hath committed . j. jones , i do confess indeed that my lord hales in his little book of the pleas of the crown , saith , that a man that hath had the benefit of his clergy , is restored to his credit . j. raymond , if that case be allowed it is a plain case , for there is no man can wage battle , but he that is liber & legalis homo . recorder , a man broke prison and therefore he could not wage battle , he replies the king hath pardoned me that felony , and thereupon he is admitted to wage battle . j. jones , where there is no judgment given in the case , and the king doth pardon a man , that doth make a very great difference . recorder , in the case of witherington , my lord chief justice did look upon the records , and afterwards said he was a good witness and was admitted . prisoner , if you have law by you i must consent . l. c. j. then you must consent . recorder , there are several persons , who have had pardons after robberies , and we are forced to make use of some of these fellows . l. c. j. before conviction . recorder , no after conviction , my lord , i have known a prisoner at the bar , when my lords the judges have been there ; to be a witness . and if the court had made any doubt , it would have been a question before this time of day . att. general , my lord , if you please mr. dangerfield may be sworn . if your lordship pleases . l. c. j. my lord shall have the benefit of excepting against his credibility . then mr. justice raymond went down to the court of common pleas , to know their opinion . j. jones , have you any other witness in the mean time ? att. general , no , my lord , he is a principal witness . sir f. w. besides the common practice , here is a book that says , he shall wage battle . j. jones , that is , when there is a pardon before conviction . sol. general , but here , my lord , he says the reatum is taken away , and then it takes away his disabilities too . the difference can be nothing here before conviction , and after , because before conviction there is a disability , before conviction he is disabled from waging battle : so that that makes no difference before conviction , and other cases after conviction , and the disability is taken away by the pardon , and he is restored to be a freeman . l. c. j. there is a disability upon presumption , tho not upon conviction . sol. general , there is the same legal impediment in the one as in the other : but his credit is left to the breast of the jury . recorder , when a pardon comes , it takes away not only poenam but reatum , and the reason my lord hobart gives . l. c. j. nay give your reason . recorder , for felony is contra coronam & dignitatem , is a fault against the king , and when the king pardons it , it ceases ; and in another place it is said , it pardons all disabilities incident to him . j. jones , that is before conviction still . l. c. j. don't my lord cook tell you expresly , that the taking a pardon doth not prove any offence ? you take a pardon , it ought not to be concluded that you are guilty ; but the proper conclusion of a wise man is , that you would be safe : it can't be thought that every man that hath a pardon in england is guilty of all those offences that are there pardoned . j. jones , there is a difference between a general pardon and a particular pardon ; when a man doth accept of a special pardon , it must be intended that he hath some consciousness of guilt , or else he would not take it ; but he that is included in a general pardon , may be clear , because all men are included in it , unless some persons particularly excepted ▪ and the difference is taken in that very point from accepting a general and a special pardon . l. c. j. that the acceptance of a general pardon , doth not barely of it self intend men to be guilty of the crimes , is plain , and the reason is most apparent , for besides that men be safe , so there be times that give a reason why men should have a pardon , because no man knows when he is safe ; perjury so abounds that no man can say he is safe , and that is a reason why men should be very willing to accept of pardons . clerk of the crown , here 's my lord hales's book about the pleas of the crown . recorder , he says when the king hath discharged and pardoned him , he hath cleared the person of the crime and infamy . j. jones , it is so no doubt . sir f. w. may we pass upon these authorities ? j. jones , sir francis , we are not willing to go about it till it be concluded , for that purpose we have desired my brother raymond to know the judges opinions of the common pleas. recorder , he doth expresly say it hath restored him to his credit , and in witherington's case he did call for the very records . att. general , if it restore him to his credit , i hope it shall not blemish him so much when he is sworn , that he shall not be believed . l. c. j. we won't have any prepossession in that case , his crimes shall be all taken notice of : is it fit to have men guilty of all sorts of villanies , and not to observe it . j. jones , in that very case , my lord hobart says , a man may say of a pardoned man , he was a felon , though he cannot say now he is a felon , and now what can be objected to this case ? recorder , things may be objected against a person , and his credit left to the jury , but the question now is ; whether he shall be a witness or no ? l. c. j. we have men grown so insolent , they behave themselves with that vile insolence , that now they take upon them to speak against whole societies of men ; as if so be there were any thing in them that should render them better then their former lives or natures . humility becomes penitents , and no wicked man is supposed to be penitent , that hath not that ; but these carry it with that insolency , as if they were not concern'd themselves , when god knows the best of them discover what they do ; by being but parties themselves . [ mr. justice ▪ raymond return'd from the court of common pleas. l. c. j. i will tell you what my brethrens opinions are , he hath put it to them on both accounts , that he was convicted of felony and burnt in the hand for it , that he was outlawed for felony , and hath a general pardon . they say they are of opinion , that a general pardon would not restore him to be a witness after an outlawry for felony , because of the interest that the kings subjects have in him . but they say further , that where a man comes to be burnt in the hand , there they look upon that as a kind of more general discharge , then the pardon alone would amount to , if he had not been burnt in the hand . they say , if he had been convicted of felony , and not burnt in the hand , the pardon would not have set him upright , but being convicted and burnt in the hand , they suppose he is a witness . sir f. w. swear mr. dangerfield . l. c. j. the very attainder is taken away , and so all is gone . att. general , come mr. dangerfield are you sworn ? mr. dangerfield , yes , sir. att. general , pray tell what you know of my lord castlemain . l. c. j. i perceive my brethrens opinion is , that if a man were convicted of perjury , if there be no burning in the hand in the case , that a pardon could not set him upright , because of the interest of the people in the king. att. general , come , mr. dangerfield , are you sworn ? mr. dangerfield , yes , sir. att. general , then pray say what you know of my lord castlemain . mr. dangerfield , about this time twelve month , my lady powis sent me with a letter for the prisoner at the bar , my lord castlemain . l. c. j. don't you know him ? mr. dangerfield , yes , my lord , this is the person . and , my lord , the contents of that letter i know not : but his lordship made me stay till he wrote an answer , and the contents of the answer , my lord , were to this effect : for i return'd with the answer , to the lady powis , and she opened and read it while i was present . l. c. j. aloud ? mr. dangerfield , aloud , my lord. l. c. j. to you . mr. dangerfield , to me . l. c. j. who was there ? mr. dangerfield , mrs. cellier was there besides . and the contents of this letter were , this person i like well , and though he be no scholar , he will serve to instruct the youths as he shall be directed . by the youths were meant the st. omers witnesses . l. c. j. how do you know ? mr. dangerfield , because i know my lord was employed for that purpose . i know his lordship did use to instruct the youths ; and it was a common saying among them , when one of them was out of his part , they used to say , i must go to my lord castlemain . l. c. j. what part ? mr. dangerfield , that which they were to say , and one of them did say , i am out of my lesson , i must go to my lord castlemain . l. c. j. when did he say so ? mr. dangerfield , before the tryal , my lord , and my lord castlemain went along with them to the tryal , and his lordship complained of some ill usage that the witnesses received there . his lordship was one of the persons that imployed me to get lane out of the gate-house , my lord , and his lordship sent me to a sollicitor of his , whose name was mr. lawson ( the person is now in court ) to take an account how far he had proceeded in this affair . i did take an account , and i proceeded in it afterwards and got him discharged . l. c. j. how came you into my lords acquaintance ? mr. dangerfield , that was the first time , when my lady powis sent me with that letter , my lord. a pretty while after this , in the month of july , i went to wait upon his lordship at his house in charing-cross , the same place where i found his lordship before ; and i was to take his advice a bout some letters that came from one nevil alias paine . those letters and list of names i shewed his lordship , and he gave his approbation of them , and desired good store of copies might be writ : for it was of consequence and ought not to be neglected . and ask'd me , are there working persons employ'd in that business ? and said he , encourage them , and i will pay my part . so my lord , after there were a great number of copies writ of these letters , i writ a letter to my lord castlemain , to let his lordship know that the people had finish'd their work , and that there was something more to be done as a gratuity ; and then his lordship in answer to this messenger ( who is here also in court ) with a letter his lordship sent forty shillings for his part . and mrs. cellier told me she received forty shillings and disposed of it to the use intended ; now , my lord , the contents of these letters were to the same effect with those letters and loose papers which i conveyed into collonel mansell's chamber ; and these all tended to the promoting the sham-plot , my lord. l. c. j. pray tell me what was the subject of these letters ; what was the substance of them ? mr. dangerfield , to the promoting the sham-plot . my lord. l. c. j. that is a general no body knows what to make of . mr. dangerfield , i will give your lordship an account in particular : the contents of many of them were to this purpose . l. c. j. were they not all alike ? mr. dangerfield , the copies were the same , and there were so many originals to draw copies from . l. c. j. were not the originals all to the same purpose ? mr. dangerfield , agreeable in point of sense . l. c. j. pray tell us the purpose of them ? mr. dangerfield , the purpose was , that so many letters should be conveyed into the houses of several persons of quality in this kingdom , that were called presbyterians : for that was the notion , that all persons , that were not for the immediate promoting of the catholick interest , lay under ; because they looked upon that notion to be most obnoxious . l. c. j. who and where ? mr. dangerfield , in general , my lord. l. c. j. in general , where ? mr. dangerfield , by my lady powis and the lords in the tower. l. c. j. were you by when the lords in the tower did agree to it ? mr. dangerfield , when my lord peter and my lord arundel did . l. c. j. what did they agree to ? mr. dangerfield , my lord the thing is this , after they received an account from one mr. paine , i brought a billet from that paine ; wherein was contain'd a ground or scheme of the presbyterian plot ; so from thence it derived its first name , my lord : so that when i came to discourse with the lords in the tower about it , they called it the presbyterian plot ; and mrs. cellier and the lady powis said , this is a notion that will do the business , as it is most obnoxious , and as best to our purpose . j. jones , how far was my lord castlemain concern'd in this ? mr. dangerfield , i have not heard his lordship speak of it under that notion . l. c. j. pray let us hear what you can say against my lord castlemain . mr. dangerfield , now , my lord , some considerable time after i had gotten lane out of prison , i was imployed by several other persons , his lordship was one , and he sent me to his lordships sollicitor , that is now in court. a pretty while after this , and the letters and lists of names , containing matter to the same effect as i told you before , as those in mansell's chamber , and all tending to the credit of the sham plot , or the presbyterian plot. now , my lord , a pretty while after this , in august , as near as i can remember ; about the middle of august , i went to wait upon his lordship , the very next day after i had been treated withal in the tower to kill the king , whom god preserve , my lord ; and his lordship had a servant then in the room , and he sent his servant down stairs , and looked upon me with a very austere countenance : said he , why would you offer to refuse the business for which you were taken out of prison ? l. c. j. to you ? mr. dangerfield , to me , my lord. l. c. j. who was by ? mr. dangerfield , no body , but his lordship and my self ; for he sent his servant out before : so he asked me , why i would offer to refuse the business i was taken out of prison for ? i asked his lordship , what that was ? said he , was not you at the tower yesterday ? yes , my lord , i was . would your lordship have me kill the king , i suppose that 's the business . yes , that is , said he upon which my lord fell into such a fury , that i was fore'd rudely to leave the room , and went down stairs . i think at the same time his lordship was writing the compendium of the late plot ; for there i saw some words in a paragraph that lay upon the table , which i afterwards saw in that book . there was ink set upon the table , and open in his lordships hand . and his lordship did use in his discourse to call his majesty tyrant . l. c. j. have you heard him ? in what company ? mr. dangerfield , in his familiar discourse . as to ask when his majesty will return from windsor ? says he , when the tyrant pleases . and i remember i heard his lordship mention the word tyrant to mrs. cellier at powis-house . att. general , how came that discourse about killing the king ? what was the occasion of that discourse ? l. c. j. had you refused it to my lord ? mr. dangerfield , yes , my lord , i refused . l. c. j. what did you say to him ? mr. dangerfield , i said any body but my king , my lord. l. c. j. he said , why did you refuse to do that for which you were taken out of prison ? what is that my lord ? was not you at the tower yesterday ? why won't you do it ? what is it , my ●ord ? is it to kill the king ? i suppose that it is , saith he , that your lordship intends . yes says he , that is it , why won't you do it ? that is what he says . att. general , that is the evidence we give . j. jones , you say he was very violent . l. c. j. was you ever in his company afterwards . mr. dangerfield , no , not after that , my lord , that i know of . l. c. j. what kind of fury did he shew to you at that time ? mr. dangerfield , my lord , he was in a great rage , as his lordship is very cholerick ; he was bustling about , and i knew not what he intended to do , and i was unwilling to stand the test of his anger . his lordship seemed by his look to be meditating revenge . l. c. j. how ? mr. dangerfield , i say this , after his lordship had sent his servant out of the room , said he , why would you offer to refuse the business for which you were taken out of prison ? said he , were not you at the tower yesterday ? said i , yes , my lord , i was ; would you have me kill the king ? is that the business ? yes , that it is , said my lord very angrily . prisoner , when did you go to the tower ? was this the next day after it ? mr. dangerfield , the next day after it . prisoner , mr. dangerfield , pray let me ask you one question , did not i threaten to kill you , or have some of my servants kill you , if you came unto me again ? mr. dangerfield , one time his lordship saw me at my lady powis's house , and he shewed me a very particular favour . i speak it in the presence of almighty god , nothing out of revenge , nor for any sort of interest . prisoner , was i never angry with you but at that time ? mr. dangerfield , no , my lord , i know not or any other time that your lordship was angry . l. c. j. now what say you , my lord ? prisoner , the first thing i desire to do , is , here are two gentlemen gives in evidence against me , the one is mr. oates , the other mr. dangerfield . mr. oates says , that he in spain did see several letters from me : that when he came over into england , he brought a letter from spain to me , that that letter was given to the provincial , and the provincial ( he supposes ) gave it me . now , my lord , i only desire this , that the first thing that shall be done , is , that you will please to call mr. parker , who will shew you what a kind of man mr. oates is . and i am glad , since you say that mr. dangerfield is a good witness , that i can prove that every word he says is a lie . and so begin with mr. oates , prisoner , my lord , i would offer you a record , a record of some particular actions from hastings . l. c. j. read the record . [ the record read. l. c. j. what use can you make of this ? prisoner , my lord , the case is only this , my lord , i will tell you , here is mr. oates , this is only to shew what kind of man this mr. oates is . mr. oates he comes and accuses a man at hastings for buggery , there he is indicted and comes to his tryal , and then he is found innocent : now , my lord , i sent for this mr. parker , to tell your lordship what kind of man this mr. oates was , and for that purpose shew the whole proceeding . l. c. j. my lord , you shall have all the justice in the world ; but we must have right done to the kings evidence . you have brought in a thing , whereby all you can make against mr. oates is this , that he was the prosecutor of a man for the crime of buggery , and is supposed to have taken his oath there , and notwithstanding the jury would not believe him , and found the man not guilty . prisoner , my lord , i come to shew you the motives how the jury came to clear him , that is , by proving this man was in another place at that time , and satisfied the court and jury , that he was from eleven a clock or sooner , till eight or ten a clock with them in company ; where it was only the malice that was between oates and parker . and several witnesses that were in the place where he said the buggery was committed , said that he was not there , and they witnesses positively said they were with him , and all looked upon mr. oates as a detestable man , and sent him out of the court. l. c. j. do you prove this by any but parker ? j. raymond , this ought not to be admitted ; for if it be , mr. oates stands here to answer all the faults that ever he committed . l. c. j. here is the case , supposing it be true now , that mr. oates , prosecuted a man for felony , and he gave testimony , supposing it should be so , and yet the jury acquitted him ; what use can you make of it ? you can make no inference ; it is a thing we must allow all the juries in england : for there is witness generally given on both sides , and when there are for the plantiff , the defendants evidence are all perjured , and when for the defendant the plaintiffs evidence are perjured . prisoner , my lord , this is the inference . thus much i make of it , that this parker is innocent . oates swears positively he did so , the other swears positively this man was not there , to shew the malice oates had against him . l. c. j. my lord , you can go no further than you have gone . the result of all is , that the jury found him not guilty : for what grounds no man can come to say , but the jury men themselves . no man can tell what prevailed with the jury to find him not guilty , that is in their own consciences , and these are things that cannot be examined . his jury , notwithstanding mr. oates was the only prosecutor , they found him not guilty , and it amounts to nothing . prisoner , my lord , there is another thing , while this man was in prison , what does oates do , but comes here to london , accuses the father , who was a considerable man in the town , a justice of the peace , and mayor the year before ; accuses him because he should not assist his son , accuses him before the king of speaking scandalous words . then he gets him by a messenger brought up before the council , the king was present at the hearing , and there it was proved to the king , as the order of council shews , that he was an honest man , and so the council sent oates away with the greatest contempt , and freed the other man. l. c. j. was this before the plot was discovered ? prisoner , yes , my lord , in pursuance of it . l. c. j. you said it was that he should not help his son , his son was not free . prisoner , no , he was in prison , my lord. recorder , my lord , may think hard if he hath not some competent liberty ; but he must keep to the business . you say , that notwithstanding he hath the opinion of the court , that the jury must take notice , then the jury must take notice it signifies nothing . prisoner , very well . having told you this , i desire you would be pleased to take notice , after oates was thus forced to run away from hastings , here it seems he was converted to be a papist , by a person whom mr. oates hath since converted to be a protestant ; and you shall see what an account this gentleman will give of him . l. c. j. what is his name ? prisoner , hutchinson . l. c. j. what will you do against him ? prisoner , several things , my lord. l. c. j. you must not do it . if you are able to disprove mr. oates , in any of these particulars , you may do it . if you alledg testimony against the particular matter he hath sworn , you will do very well ; but pray , my lord , keep to that . prisoner , i will , my lord. i will submit any thing to your lordships commands , and therefore , my lord , i will tell you for what reason i sent for this man , to tell you how mr. oates went to spain , and how he lived in spain . l. c. j. if you can shew the jury any reason why they should not believe his evidence , that will be very proper . l. c. j. what is your name ? hutchinson , my name is hutchinson . prisoner , mr. hutchinson , pray say what you have to say , and not follow mr. oates's method , i only ask you this question , sir , whether you did convert this man , that is , reconcile him to the church of rome ? hutchinson , yes , my lord , that i did . l. c. j. you ought not to ask him such questions ; you bring him in danger of his life ; you are not to ask him such questions . recorder , let us see the statute book . clerk of the crown , it is high treason . l. c. j. you thought this had been meritorious now , and it is high treason . recorder , this it is to abound in a mans own sense . we must beg your lordships advice in this . l. c. j. are you a protestant now ? hutchinson , yes , my lord. prisoner , he was a priest , and confesses his error . l. c. j. did you know oates first in spain ? hutchinson , no , my lord , i knew him first here , and we were in company , and i told him , he could not be a true priest , since he was of the church of england . att. gen. he offers such things as are not evidence . l. c. j. pray what do you know of his imployment in spain ? hutchinson , i received letters from him when he was in spain . he went over to study philosophy and divinity there , and i saw his recommendations to the rector of liege . l. c. j. did you see him ? hutchinson , yes , my lord , i did see him before he made this disturbance . l. c. j. what disturbance ? do you know ? what discourse had you with him ? hutchinson , i employed him in writing for me . l. c. j. writing what ? hutchinson , in writing certain things against the corruption of the church of rome . he had ten shillings i gave him , and this was before the discovery he made ( as he pretends ) of the plot. and he told me he would suffer no more for conscience sake . it is an hard thing , said he , mr. berry , for a man to want bread. upon which i gave him ten shillings . l. c. j. he says , having been formerly with mr. oates , he imployed him to transcribe many things for him , and mr. oates said to him , he was resolved no more to suffer for conscience sake . how , saith he , not so . oh but mr. berry , said he , it is a very sad thing to want bread. and upon that , he says , he gave him ten shillings for his pains in writing . hutchinson , and hereupon , my lord , in may was twelve-month , he sent for me , when i heard he had done some more mischief ▪ and i went to him , my lord. l. c. j. that was after the discovery ? hutchinson , yes , my lord , upon that he was very kind to me , and gave me twenty shillings . said he , mr. berry , you have been civil to me , and you shall never want any thing , so long as i have it . said i , mr. oates , are these things true , that you swear against the jesuits ? said he , as i hope for salvation they are : and that was the truest word he spake these three years . then said i , mr. oates , answer me this only one thing , there are an hundred and twenty persons that saw you every day , and dined and supp'd with you at st. omers , and these you have recommended to me for vertuous people , and i know them to be so . he said , they are outlawed men . l. c. j. what did mr. oates say more ? hutchinson , he was with me frequently , my lord. recorder , he paid you your angel well when he gave you twenty shillings . hutchinson , mr. oates , speak the truth , there is a god in heaven . dr. oates , shall i be allowed to satisfie the court as to this evidence ? i will give the court a very good account . l. c. j. the substance is this , that you were poor . is it true that he gave you ten shillings ? dr. oates , my lord , i believe i might not have much money among them . l. c. j. and you said , you would suffer no more for conscience sake ? dr. oates , that is not so , my lord. l. c. j. and , that it is an hard thing to want bread ? dr. oates , my lord , i never wanted bread. hutchinson , but you said so to me , mr. oates . att. gen. hark , mr. hutchinson — dr. oates , to shew the invalidity of this evidence , my lord , the bishop of london hath turn'd him out of his living at barkin . l. c. j. what is that ? dr. oates , to shew that he is not fit to be trusted . l. c. j. why you have never a living . dr. oates , yes i have , my lord. l. c. j. where ? dr. oates , in kent , my lord. l. c. j. how long have you had it ? dr. oates , i was restored to it last summer . recorder , he says , that he had discourse with him concerning his priesthood , whether mr. oates thought himself to be a good priest , that is , as he was made by the order of the church of england ? att. gen. he says , he converted mr. oates to be a papist . dr. oates , and i have a charge of high treason against that man , for seducing me from my religion , my lord. i will swear he turn'd me to the church of rome , and i desire it may be recorded . dr. d. i have one thing to tell your lordship , the man is mad , he is distracted . l. c. j. this doctor of divinity is a very honest man , he will tell you . dr. d. he was my curate at barkin , and my lord of london having some information against the manner of his preaching , sent me word to rippon , he would provide me another curate . on saturday last , dining with him , my lord told me he was distracted . recorder , his behaviour is a very concurrent testimony . j. raymond , i appeal to my lord , if i did not tell him as he came into the court , that he was a distracted man. l. c. j. call another witness . prisoner , here 's a gentleman was his school-fellow at vallodolid . i ask you mr. armstrong , whether you knew any thing of mr. oates there ? l. c. j. how long had he been there ? armstrong , he was three months there before me . l. c. j. how long was he there in all ▪ armstrong , a matter of a moneth . l. c. j. was he not there four months ? armstrong , yes , a matter of four months in all . l. c. j. he says , he had been there three months before he came , and a month after he came ; and that then he was but a common scholar . dr. oates , my lord , i will satisfie the court when they question me ? l. c. j. in what would you satisfie us ? dr. oates , about being a scholar . i was ready to commence when they came ; but being they were strangers in the town , not being town scholars , and not undertaking philosophical dictates , the fathers did pray me to shew them the way to school ; and i went with them two or three times . l. c. j. call another , my lord. prisoner , mr. palmer and mr. dorrington . l. c. j. did you know mr. oates at st. omers ? palmer , yes , my lord , and he was an ordinary scholar there , and dined and supp'd with us . l. c. j. you said he dined at another table . palmer , yes , my lord , he did dine at a table by himself ; but it was at the same time . dr. oates , had i scholars commons ? pray my lord ask them that . palmer , he had the same commons that we had ; but they had a respect for him as he was an ancienter man , and that was the reason that he had more freedom than the rest . prisoner , my lord , he says he came from st. omers at the consult , pray sir , who did you come along with ? did you come with hilsley ? dr. oates , hilsley came with me in the pacquet-boat . prisoner , call mr. hilsley and osbourne — my lord , this gentleman . i would bring nothing to offend your lordship , or nothing that hath been old , if it had not some new inference from it : therefore , my lord , this is the reason that i sent for mr. hilsley . mr. hilsley did you come with mr. oates in april in the pacquet-boat ? hilsley , no , my lord. prisoner , you left him at st. omers . hilsley , yes , my lord. prisoner , now , my lord , i have several witnesses to prove this . and pray , mr. osbourn , tell my lord what he said to you . osbourn , my lord , about the latter end of april , i heard mr. hilsley was in town , i went to see him , and one time at a coffee-house about the turnstile w● fell in discourse . l. c. j. my lord , you say you have two persons of quality . i will tell you my lord what you shall expect , i will not be for one and not for t'other ; but be equal as near as i can . if he comes only to testifie what hilsley told him , it signifies nothing . prisoner , i do depend upon hilsley , but this is that hilsley told him , that there was one oates at st. omers . l. c. j. that is no evidence , nor can ladies of quality prove by their own experience what mr. hilsley affirms , that oates came not over with him . prisoner , my lord , they can tell , and one lady a protestant , that talking with this gentleman before the plot — l. c. j. this is only discourse what another man says . if mr. oates himself should have said so , then indeed it is proper ; but to shew you this , it is impossible , supposing they speak truth , that is , if they do witness what they do not , that long before they heard of the name of oates , this gentlemau should tell them one oates was left at st. omers ; it signifies nothing . prisoner , does not that confirm mr. hilsley's testimony ? l. c. j. no , indeed . prisoner , i only refer this to you , my lord ; hilsley says in april he did leave oates , and here are four or five witnesses that hilsley told them so . j. jones , all that my lord says , is this , that he did leave mr. oates at st. omers . if it be objected , they are catholicks , as they call them , says my lord , hilsley did tell this story before there was any plot. why should he tell them so ? it is not in favour of that religion that he speaks ; but the time of testifying such a thing , shews he speaks true . this is all . prisoner , this is the inference , this is only to corroborate and shew you the credit of his testimony . j. raymond , it may be a mistake though , and it is of no more force than what he says now . att. gen. they were all mistaken in that matter . dr. oates , my lord , he did leave me at st. omers , but i overtook him at calais . l. c. j. will you swear it mr. oates ? dr. oates , i say upon my oath i did it . l. c. j. it were a great matter if you had any body to prove that this gentleman came alone , but that is still but one mans testimony . prisoner , but here is confirmation to his evidence , that he could not invent it . att. gen. you had sixteen once , but the contrary was proved and believed , and so it may be again . prisoner , call mr. gregson and rigby . mr. gregson were not you landlord to mr. oates before the plot was discovered ? how long before the plot did he lie at your house ? l. c. j. what time ? gregson , a week before easter . j. raymond , when did he go away from you , sir ? gregson , the sunday after easter day . j. raymond , when did you see him again ? gregson , he came to me about all saints . j. raymond , the same year ? gregson , yes . dr. oates , who paid for my quarters ? pray ask him that , my lord. gregson , he paid for it himself . dr. oates , did not mr. fenwick pay for it ? gregson , he did after you came from st. omers . dr. oates , my lord , when i came last from st. omers , i went directly to his house . prisoner , was not he in a poor condition ? gregson , he was then indifferently poor . prisoner , my lord , this is only to prove his condition . dr. oates , my lord , i had only what the jesuits allow'd me . l. c. j. you had nothing but what they allow'd you ? dr. oates , nothing else , my lord. j. jones , they allow'd you a very scanty living . prisoner , call mr. littcott . mr. littcott , do you know any thing about a divorce ? l. c. j. what should he know ? prisoner , pray , my lord , don't discourage me . j. raymond , but you must not ask things that are not to the purpose . littcott , my lord , it was morally impossible there should be a divorce . l. c. j. was there any endeavour by my lord concerning it ? littcott , there was no such design . l. c. j. how was that ? but pray mind , you will be morally not believed else : do you know my lord used any endeavours , in order to obtain a divorce ? recorder , that is all that he says , he never knew any thing . prisoner , i only say this , my lord , mr. oates comes here and says , that he heard me say , that i did spend a great deal of money . now if i satisfie the court that i never spent a farthing towards a divorce — l. c. j. if he had said , your lordship laid out sums of money , then it had been an answer to that , if you could prove you had not . prisoner , you know i stand here accused for a great crime , pray give me leave . j. raymond , if it were a matter of moment we would . prisoner , pray , my lord , hear me , here is a man says , i spent a great deal of money about a divorce ; i come to tell your lordship , that this very man , before your lordships , and also before the king ; and if your lordships have forgot it , i will shew you witnesses that he spake it before the king , and before the house of commons ; that i did actually sue out a divorce ▪ now i will shew my lord that i neither could nor did go about it . l. c. j. we are not to take notice of that now . if he did say a false thing before the house of commons , we cannot take notice of it now : for we cannot go to try whether he said so , and whether that be true or false . prisoner , i humbly begg my lord , if this man that is upon his oath hath sworn before the king , that he did actually see the divorce , and i prove that it was impossithat he should see the divorce , because it was impossible to get a divorce — l. c. j. what then ? j. raymond , you must not be permitted to prove that , it is not pertinent to the question . prisoner , my lords , with humble submission to you , he hath told me this before your lordships , that i spent a great deal of money about a divorce . l. c. j. my lord , you will be satisfied , when we have acquainted you what the ordinary proceedings of a court of justice are in this nature ; what is , and what is not to be admitted . if you should come to prove mr. oates had falsly sworn a thing in another court , and five or six witnesses shall come and say it is not true ; we are not to hearken to it . the reason is this , first you must have him perjured , and we are not now to try , whether that thing sworn in another place be true or false ? because that is the way to accuse whom you please ; and that may make a man a liar , that cann't imagine this will be put to him : and so no mans testimony that comes to be a witness , shall leave himself safe . and this is another case , if he swore in another place what is contradictory to what he says now ; then it is proper . if you could prove that he had sworn in another place that he never saw you , it is very proper : but now to us he says , that he doth not remember whether ever he had seen a divorce , or that you had sued out a divorce . all that he remembers is , that you said , you had expended a great deal of money about a divorce , and that is all he testifies here . prisoner , my lord , my evidence against mr. oates is this , that he waves what he said before , when i came to ask him , and says , i don't remember . now , my lord , if he lies in one thing , he may in another . j. raymond , no man can remember all the things that ever he did in his life . prisoner , i have witnesses to appeal to , to witness every thing ; and i represent it here to you , that i would with all my heart have indicted him of perjury , but for mr. atturney general : for i imploy'd two to attend the clerk of the peace for copies of the indictments against mr. langborn and mr. ireland ; they did come to the clerk of the peace , saith the clerk of the peace , i can't do it without mr. atturney's authority . my lord , saith he , i would give them you with all my heart , but i must have leave from the table . att. general , no , my lord , i told you , i would not give it you without you had an order from the king , and the council did not think fit to give it you . prisoner , i think this is a little pertinent . j. jones , how doth any thing that your lordship excepts against in this gentleman's testimony contradict it self ? all that you accuse him of is , that mr oates had said he heard you say , you had spent a great deal of money about a divorce . prisoner , i only shew , if you are pleased to hear it , that he reported to the king that he actually saw the divorce . j. jones , that agrees well enough with what he says now . prisoner , he said so in your lordships hearing . l. c. j. i don't remember it , if i did i would speak of it ; i don't remember it upon my word . j. raymond , i protest i don't remember a word . j. jones , in the court did he say it ? j. raymond , here we are all three that were present , i protest i don't remember it ; but as to the business of the divorce , i might look upon it as impertinent , and so possibly might not mind what he said . prisoner , i only offer this to you , and if your lordships command me to desist i will desist . dr. oates , i desire my evidence to prove that i was in town . j. raymond , pray , mr. oates , you are an evidence , you must be govern'd by mr. atturney . l. c. j. it would be very fit , mr. atturney ▪ to prove that mr. oates did come over with hilsley in the pacquet boat. j. raymond , mr. oates , i remember very well gave an account of his coming over , said he , i did come over with such and such persons , and among the rest was mr. hilsley . this is only to prove that he was at the consult . att. gen. we can prove it . [ records produced against mr. dangerfield . l. c. j. here is , that he was burnt in the hand , and outlawed for felony , pilloryed for cheating , twice pilloryed , and see whether he was whipt or no. sir f. w. i know nothing of the pillory . j. raymond , here was a record of being burnt in the hand , and a record for putting away false guinneys . l. c. j. for that he was to stand in the pillory . clerk of the crown , here is one record for another shilling gilt . l. c. j. was that in the pillory too ? att. gen. he was fined fifty pounds . clerk of the crown , here are three in salisbury for three several guinneys , and he was adjudged to the pillory for them all . att. gen. it was all at one assizes , my lord. l. c. j. my brother tryed him . clerk of the crown , he was tryed before mr. justice jones , and to stand in the pillory for all three . l. c. j. what have you else to say ? prisoner , call mrs. cellier and mr. dowdal . l. c. j. what is your name , sir ? dowdal , my name is bennet dowdal . l. c. j. what have you to say to him , my lord ? prisoner , mr. dowdal the case is this , mr. dangerfield tells me . i was angry with him at such a time for a business at my house ; was i not angry with him at powis house for going to the lords in the tower ? att. general , then he did go about it ? dowdal , mrs. cellier spake to me to speak to mr. dangerfield not to be troubled at your anger . j. raymond , when was this ? dowdal , after the jesuites died . prisoner , he proves this , that mrs. cellier spake to him to pacify mr. dangerfield , and dangerfield did tell him i was angry with him for going in my name to the lords . j. raymond , he says no such thing , my lord. l. c. j. you must not ask him what mrs. cellier said . mrs. cellier , this day twelve month he and i had been employed in writing copies of some letters , and i sent him to my lord to know if he would go something towards the printing them , and he went from him to the lords in the tower. in an hour and half after , my lord came to me very angry : mrs. cellier , said he , i thought you would not forfeit your discretion to send such a rascal to me ; if you send him to me again i will bid my servants kick him . and , said i , to mr. dangerfield , you are not to note that ; for he is a very good man , and may be angry one time and pleased another ; and i would have sent him another time , and said he , pray madam , don't send me thither , i would rather go an hundred miles of your errand . l. c. j. dangerfield , that discourse you had with my lord , was it before the jesuits dyed or after ? mr. dangerfield , what discourse ? l. c. j. when you discours'd about killing the king. mr. dangerfield , no , my lord , two months after . l. c. j. when was the time that these words were spoken ? mr. dangerfield , when his lordship was in that passion . l. c. j. when was that ? mr. dangerfield , my lord , it was about the middle of august . l. c. j. was you ever in his company after ? mr. dangerfield , no my lord , i saw him once at powis house . l. c. j. had he ever been angry before ? mr. dangerfield , no not till this time , my lord. l. c. j. here mrs. cellier witnesses that this day twelve month , my lord was extreamly angry , insomuch that when she would have had you go on an errand you would not . mr. dangerfield , my lord , that time i had been with my lord castlemain , i went home to mrs. celliers house , which i did then call my home , and said i , my lord castlemain is most violently angry with me . l. c. j. when was this ? mr. dangerfield , this was the latter end of august . l. c. j. but she talks of this time twelve-month . mr. dangerfield , it is no such thing my lord. mrs. cellier , i said , pray carry this letter to my lord castlemain : pray excuse me , said he , i had rather go an hundred miles than go by his door . l. c. j. whereas dangerfield says , he had this discourse in august , mrs. cellier says in june or july , this day twelve-month particularly she gave him a letter , and he said , pray excuse me , i would go an hundred miles for you ; but i would not go into my lords company again if i could help it . prisoner , my lord , mr. dowdal can tell it . l. c. j. did he acknowledg to you my lords anger in the beginning of july ? dowdal , it was within a week after the jesuits died . l. c. j. i don't know that . dowdal , it was about the twenty first of june . l. c. j. here are two witnesses , one saies in june or the beginning of july ; says mrs. cellier , this day twelve-month , he came and told me my lord was extreamly angry with him . and she would afterwards have had him carried a letter : but he said , pray excuse me , i would go an hundred miles , but he would not go again to him if he could help it . and dowdal says he told him about that time of my lords anger with him . att. gen. hold your tongue , mr. dangerfield . j. raymond , what jesuits ? dowdal , the five jesuits . prisoner , if you please , my lords , i would only tell you this . my lords , you see that these two witnesses testify , that i was angry with mr. dangerfield , in june , my lords , i only say this to you , that when i was examined at the council before the king of this particular , my lord chancellour asked him the particulars of it , and he did confess this thing which i now prove . now my lords , i inferr this , if i was so angry with him for offering to go to the tower when he went to the tower in my name — l. c. j. that they have said , that you were very angry . dowdal , dangerfield told me so , that he was angry about his going to the tower in my lords name unknown to him . l. c. j. here are two witnesses to prove , that my lord was angry with him for going to the tower in his name , and they both testify he was extreamly high and refused to carry a letter to my lord ; and yet he says in august following he had this discourse . prisoner , i have now only one thing to say , what hath past between mr. oates and mr. dangerfield . l. c. j. do it as near as you can . sir f. w. we have some other evidence to answer this . att. gen. if your lordship please , we will call two or three witnesses to prove the point . first to prove this last thing , that we have been in my lords company later than my lord speaks of . l. c. j. he says august . att. gen. we will prove after that time , that is the time that pinches us . prisoner , my lady powis is in court , will you hear her ? lady powis , my lord , i never did send a letter by mr. dangerfield to any body in my life , nor i never read a letter in mr. dangerfields presence , nor never had him so much in my company to read a letter or any tittle to him . l. c. j. i will tell you gentlemen , what he says , mr. dangerfield swears he carried a letter from my lady powis to my lord castlemain , and there was an answer brought back , and that , that answer of my lord castlemains was read before him , and ( you will do well to call mrs. cellier in again ) my lady powis doth deny that she ever sent a letter by him to my lord castlemain , or any body else , by him in her life ; or that she ever communicated any letter to him : this is apt evidence , this is the truth of it ; for it answers directly to what he says against my lord castlemain . [ sir richard barker . l. c. j. what say you , sir richard barker , can you give any account of oates ? when was mr. oates in town ? what time that you know of ? sir r. b. my lord , i remember we were once upon this before your lordship . l. c. j. in ? sir r. b. yes my lord , the evidence that i gave , my lord , was only this , that my servants told me that mr. oates had been at my house : it was before whitsontide , in may l. c. j. did you see him then ? when was it you saw him ? sir r. b. my lord , i saw him after . l. c. j. how long after ? sir r. b. my lord , it was about the latter end of june . l. c. j. he says to his own knowledg he saw him in june . att. gen. but we have his servants here too , phillip page , and cecily mayo . l. c. j. do you hear , mrs cellier , was there any letter sent by my lord castlemain to my lady powis , that was read before you and dangerfieild ? mrs. cellier , no my lord. l. c. j. here are two witnesses , my lady says there is no such thing , and mrs. cellier says it . prisoner , there is another thing , that is , the teaching the scholars at st. omers , that i taught the scholars their lessons . — turner . sollic . gen. pray inform my lord and the jury , what time it was you saw mr. dangerfield at my lord castlemains . l. c. j. what month can you charge your self to say , you saw dangerfield in my lord castlemains company . turner , i can't say just the time . l. c. j. might it be august ? turner , i can't well tell , i think it might be about july . j. raymond , why do you think so ? l. c. j. you are not asked to accuse your self in any thing , but when you saw them together . turner , i was coming down stairs , my lord. j. raymond , you don't tell when it was . l. c. j. tell us whether you can tell or no : if you are doubtful , say you are doubtful ; but speak the truth . turner , i can't be positive . l. c. j. it might be in june , or july , or august , but you think july ? turner , yes , sir. sir f. w. the sooner it is after that the evidence is , the better against it . att. gen. madam , i think your ladiship says you never sent a letter by dangerfield ? lady powis , yes , sir. att. gen , nor did you never receive any notes from him ? lady powis , i have received some notes from mrs. cellier , which were his writing . l. c. j. but did you ever receive a letter from my lord castlemain ? lady powis , never , my lord. — woodman . j. raymond , what do you say , mr. atturney ? att. gen , heark you , woodman , were you sent with any letter ? woodman , to whom ? att. general , to my lord castlemain , or any body ? woodman , i was sent with one letter , it was mrs. celliers , my lord. l. c. j. to whom ? woodman , to my lord castlemain ; as i remember , my lord , i took it from mrs. celliers daughter . att. gen. did you ever receive any money of my lord castlemain ? woodman , yes , my lord. l. c. j. what was it ? how much was it ? woodman , about three pounds or thirty shillings , i believe . l. c. j. how do you believe it ? woodman , to the best of my thoughts it was . att. gen. was it for dangerfield ? woodman , my lord i don't know that . l. c. j. have you any more ? solic . gen. my lord i have this to say to prove dr. oates was in london in april . l. c. j. he doth not deny but he might be here too . prisoner , i don't dispute it , my lord , i have only this one word more . it is not of treason , but it is against my reputation ; because this man , before your lordship , i think hath accused me of it ; and i think , my lord , i shall give you very good satisfction : that is , that the boys that came from st. omers were not instructed and taught by me . now if you please , my lord , to give me leave to shew it , i have done . look , my lord , the thing that i can say , is this , mr. littcott . j. raymond , you see he said it was morally impossible . prisoner , pray my lords . j. raymond , i will undertake you will say it is time lost . l. c. j. i would stay some time to observe to the jury what i have taken notice of with all my heart , but i should be gone . prisoner , i have done my lord , i would not say any thing to disgust any body . l. c. j. gentlemen of the jury , i will deliver my observations in this cause as i would in any cause , to the best of my understanding , and will make those observations that are as natural as i know how to do ; and proper for you to take notice of . it is in vain to dispute what my lord stands indicted of : it is for attempting to murder the king , and change our government and our religion . to prove this , there hath been two witnesses only that are material , and that is mr. oates in the first place , and mr. oates his evidence , the sum of it is to be reduced — l. c. j. mr. atturney , do you stand up to speak any thing ? att. gen. if your lordship pleases , we will sum up the evidence for the king , not to offend your lordship . l. c. j. if you would be short , mr. atturney , we would not hinder you of any thing . att. gen. i 'll be very short . if it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , my lord castlemain is here charged with high treason . the proof that we have against him is by two witnesses , that is , dr. oates and mr. dangerfield . mr. oates he doth swear this , namely , that after the consult ( for i will bring it in short ) that after the consult that was for killing the king and altering the government , my lord castlemain being acquainted with it at mr. fenwick's chamber , did hope it good success , and that he should come to be reveng'd . mr. dangerfield he hath proved , that being treated with to kill the king , and having refused to do it , my lord castlemain was very angry with him for it ; and said , why wan't you do that for which you were taken out of prison ? here are two witnesses express . what is said against mr. oates signifies nothing . as to mr. dangerfield there are some exceptions , which we must confess to be true ; but he is a witness , and my lord , such matters are to be expected to be proved by such witnesses : for if a man will discover robberies , he must go to such persons as do such things ; and if treasons , it must be among them that have been employed in such things . though he were a dishonest man before , yet he may be honest now . he was never guilty of any treason but as he was employed amongst them . there are some witnesses brought to encounter him , and one is my lady powis , who , as he says , sent him with a letter to my lord castlemain ; but she says she did never send a letter by him : and others say he would never come at my lord castlemain after he was angry , which was in june . now for that , gentlemen , you do hear turner say , that in july or august , for he can't tell which , he thinks it might be july , he saw dangerfield at my lord castlemains ; so that that encounters that evidence . l. c. j. if mr. atturney had not interrupted me , i would not have left out any thing of this nature ; for i would be certainly careful , where the kings life lies at stake . i would be sure to preserve my sovereign above all things , and therefore no man ought to think that i should be partial in a cause wherein our religion and the life of the king and the government is in danger . but i must say on the other side , that there should be good competent proofs of these things against those accused , because their lives and fortunes , and honours , and a●l are at stake . and so , gentlemen , we shall discharge our consciences to the best of our understandings , and deal uprightly on both hands . for the case it stands thus , it is truly observed by mr. atturney , that there are but two material witnesses to the charge of this indictment , that is to say , mr. oates and dangerfield . mr. oates his testimony is in two things , the one close , the other is more remote . that more remote , is , that he had a letter to send to my lord castlemain , which he gave to the provincial to send it , and as he says , he saw a letter subscribed castlemain , and that afterwards by seeing him write a superscription , he could recollect the character so well , that he believed that to be his hand which he saw in spain among the jesuits , or the fathers , as they call them there , to whom they communicated that letter ; wherein he mentioned the general design , that is , the bringing in popery ; which is the bringing in the catholick religion , as they call it . that is more remote . he says there were letters past between them , wherein my lord approved of some things and disapproved of others , which related to the design ; by which , says mr. oates , we meant the whole matter and transaction of killing the king ; and that doth appear by that letter he saw of my lord castlemains , for that annexes to design the advancing the catholick religion . the first time he saw him , he did not know who he was , and there , at wild house , he says , that my lord castlemain should drop out some words which were suspicious , and one thing as if he understood something of this matter that they had then in agitation . but more particularly , he says , that when he came to fenwick's chamber , there was the great matter . they talk ▪ d before but of the design in general , at wlld house ; but afterwards meeting in lincolns-inn fields , where he was told who he was , they went to fenwick's chamber , where they fell a discoursing about several things that related to the concern , and at last they tell upon the matter in hand , and said , they were glad to see the fathers so unanimous in this ma●ter . i asked about what matter ? he said , the killing of the king and bringing in popery : to which he says , that my lord should make answer , he wished them good success in their design , and that then he should be revenged . this is the substance of what mr. oates says : against whose testimony , i must tell you there hath been but little . there is but little thrown upon mr. oates by way of disgrace and infamy . for that verdict that the jury sound against his evidence , it is not material ; for then every man must be accused , when the jury does not go according to the testimony he gives . it is not to be denied , but there is something said against him in another particular , and that is his coming over from st. om●rs , where he says that mr. hilsley came over with him in the pacquet boat , but mr. hilsl●y denies it . mr. oates would have salved it , by saying he left him at st. omers . 't is true , says mr. oates , but i overtook him afterwards : but he says to the point , that he came not with him . now it is not denied on the other hand , but mr. oates might be here , and my lord of castlemaine seems to admit it , and it is probable enough mr. oates might be here . this is all i remember in reference to mr. oates . you must weigh well with your selves how probable or not probable , what he does swear is . but i must tell the jury they are to weigh the natures of people among themselves , as they carry probability or not , or else the confidence of a swearer shall take away any man's life whatsoever . and to that that mr. oates says first , i understand not how he should be so free , mr. oates being a stranger to him , when he knew not my lord , and doth not know whether my lord knew him or no. but he says , my lord must needs see the jesuits trusted him , and that might make him more confident : that afterwards going to fenwick's house , he spake broader ; in plain english . they were talking of a design to kill the king and bring in the catholick religion , and mr. oates says , he wished them good success in the design , and that then he should be revenged . how far this oath is to be taken or not , i must leave to your consideration . the next is mr. dangerfield , for nothing infamous is proved against mr. oates . dangerfield is a man of whom there is enough . you see what crimes there are , for it is the duty of every judge , and i can't see how he can discharge his conscience , and the duty he ows to the government , in respect of his oath and place , if he doth not make those just observations to the jury which are done in all cases : that is to say , when men have contracted great crimes upon themselves , though by law they may be witnesses ; yet it hath always been observed , and their credit left to them to consider of . you see how many crimes they have produced , a matter of six great enormous crimes ; and by them you will see how far you ought to consider his testimony . had mr. dangerfield been guilty only of being concern'd in the treason , and come in as a witness , i should have thought him a very competent witness ; for that is mr. oates his case : but they prove crimes of another sort and nature , and whether the man of a sudden be become a saint , by being become a witness , i leave that to you to consider ; and how far you are satisfied in the main . the next thing is the opposition to his testimony . he hath sworn that he carried a letter from my lady powis to my lord castlemain , and an answer return'd lack from my lord to her , and that my lady powis did read it in the presence of mrs. cellier and him . of this my lady powis hath been asked ( it is true they are not upon their oaths , but that is not their fault , the law will not allow it ) and my lady powis hath affirmed to it , as much as lay upon her to do , that she never sent a letter by mr. dangerfield to my lord castlemaine , nor any body else . and whereas he say's mrs. cellier was present , she says , she knows of no such letter , nor was any read in her company ▪ and this is a contradicting his evidence , supposing him to be a man otherwise untouch'd . and whereas dangerfield says that in august he was with my lord , and he said , how chance you would not do that thing for which you were brought out of prison ? what ? would you have me kill the king ? yes , saith he , that it is . and my lord speaking very angrily and very roughly , made him think it time to with-draw out of his company , and never come into his company more ; and that this was the time of his anger , and no other time ; my lord rather complementing him , as he would say , with friendly salutations . but they produce witnesses against this . says mrs. cellier , this day twelve-month , and says t'other about a week after the jesuits were executed , which was about the beginning of july , saith she , i would have you carry a letter to my lord castlemain : saith he , i would not do that , i would go an hundred miles upon another errand , but i would not go to him . another witness says , my lord was mighty angry with him , and told him the cause , because he went in his name to the lords in the tower. first , this contradicts what he said , as if there had been no anger before . the next is , that it is very improbable that my lord should be angry with him so much , that my lord should be very angry with him for going in his name to the tower , and afterwards for his refusing to kill the king ; when he said , why did you not do that you came out of prison for ? what , my lord , to kill the king ? yes , that . this is an argument in opposition to his testimony . the next is a consideration for his testimony , turner-says in an swer to that , in july he takes it , but cann't charge himself , whether june , or july , or august ; but he himself thinks july ; that he saw him at the lord castlemain's house . and the kings council would gather from that , there could not be such an unwillingness to go before that time , it being after the time they speak of , that this man saw him there . whether or no it was in june , or july , or august , is something uncertain . so that i have repeated as near as i can all that is substantial on either part , and i have according to the best of my understanding dealt fairly on both sides ; and observed to you what hath been sworn against my lord , and what hath been said in contradiction to what they swear ; and what appears upon record , as to dangerfield . there is a great deal of difference between mr. oates his testimony and mr. dangerfield's ; for you may believe one , when you may perchance not believe another . there are not those things cast upon mr. oates that are upon mr. dangerfield . now i must tell you , though they have produced two , if you believe but one , i think ( if so be my brethrens opinions be otherwise , i would be very willingly contradicted in this matter ) if two witnesses are produced , both speaking materially to the thing , the one is believed and the other not , whether upon these two witnesses the jury can find a person guilty , or no ? i am of opinion it is but one witness , if you don't believe one ; and i am sure one is not sufficient to find one guilty ; and therefore if so be you are of another opinion , let us deal fairly and above-board ; that it may appear we deal rightly between the king and his subjects , and so preserve men that are accused and not guilty . j. jones , i think in the first place , my lord hath very faithfully delivered the evidence ; and i do think it necessary , in a case of treason , that there must be two witnesses believed by the jury . j. raymond , i never heard any man question it . if the law says , there must be two witnesses produced , it says , they must be both believed . l. c. j. now you have our sense of it . [ the jury went from the bar and returned . ] cler. of the crown , are you all agreed of your verdict ? jury , yes . clerk of the crown , who shall speak for you ? jury , the foreman . clerk of the crown , roger palmer esq ; earl of castlemain in the kingdom of ireland , hold up thy hand , look upon the jury . clerk of the crown , is roger palmer esq ; earl of castlemain in the kingdom of ireland , guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? jury , not guilty . clerk of the crown , this is your verdict , you say he is not guilty , so you say all ? jury , yes . finis . the tryals and condemnation of thomas white alias whitebread, provincial of the jesuits in england, william harcourt, pretended rector of ]ondon, john fenwick,procurator for the jesuits in england, john gavan alias gawen, and anthony turner, all jesuits and priests; for high treason: in conspiring the death of the king, the subversion of the government, and protestant religion. at the sessions in the old-bailey for london and middlesex, on friday and saturday, being the th and th of june, . published by authority. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryals and condemnation of thomas white alias whitebread, provincial of the jesuits in england, william harcourt, pretended rector of ]ondon, john fenwick,procurator for the jesuits in england, john gavan alias gawen, and anthony turner, all jesuits and priests; for high treason: in conspiring the death of the king, the subversion of the government, and protestant religion. at the sessions in the old-bailey for london and middlesex, on friday and saturday, being the th and th of june, . published by authority. whitbread, thomas, - , defendant. barrow, william, - , defendant. caldwell, john, - , defendant. gawen, john, - , defendant. turner, anthony, or - , defendant. corker, james maurus, - , defendant. p. [s.n.], dublin, : reprinted, . james corker was also a defendant in this trial. cf. p. . the words "thomas .. turner," are gathered by a left brace on the title page. with an advertisement at end of text. copy cropped. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng charles -- ii, -- king of england, - -- early works to . whitbread, thomas, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . barrow, william, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . caldwell, john, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . gawen, john, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . turner, anthony, or - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . corker, james maurus, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryals and condemnation of thomas white , alias whitebread , provincial of the jesuits in england , william harcourt , pretended rector of london , john fenwick , procurator for the jesuits in england , john gavan alias gawen , and anthony turner , all jesuits and priests ; for high treason : in conspiring the death of the king , the subversion of the government , and protestant religion . at the sessions in the old-bailey for london and middlesex , on friday and saturday , being the th and th of june , . published by authority . dublin , reprinted , . the tryals , &c. on friday the th . of june , at the sessions-house in the old-bayley , the court being met , at which all the judges of england were present . proclamation was made of silence and attention whilst the king's commission of oyer and terminer , and of gaol-delivery were openly read , and after the usual proclamation of attendance upon the sessions , the court proceeded to call the jurys impannelled , and to the tryals of the prisoners thus . cl. of cr. set thomas whitebread , john fenwick , william harcourt , john gavan , anthony turner , and james corker to the bar , cap. richardson . they are all on . cl. of cr. thomas white alias whitebread , hold up thy hand . john fenwick , hold up thy hand . william harcourt , alias harrison , hold up thy hand . john gavan , hold up thy hand . anthony turner , hold up thy hand . james corker , hold up thy hand . which they all severally did . and james corker presented a petition to the court , to this effect . that about moneths since the petition was committed for refusing to take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , that he had lately received notice to prepare himself for his tryal against this present day , but that the same was afterwards contradicted , and that yesterday a gentleman informed him from the attorney general , that a bill was found against him of high treason , and that he was to prepare himself for his tryal thereupon accordingly ; and forasmuch as the petitioner is altogether ignorant of the matters charged upon him in the same , and by reason thereof , is absolutely surprised , and unprepared for his defence , and diverse gaol-deliverys having been held since his first commitment , and he never called to his tryal ; he doth humbly beseech their honours , that he may not be tried till the next sessions , and that in the mean time , he may have copies of such informations as are given in against him . l. c. j. mr. corker , have you really any witnesses , without whom you cannot make your defence . corker . no , my lord i have none . l. c. j. you do not understand my question , do you want any witnesses , now , that you may have another time ? corker . i am a stranger to the things charged upon me . l. c. j. can you not tell , whether you have any witnesses or no ? the matter is this , both for you and all the rest of you , that there may be no exception ; you are upon the trial of your lives , and we upon our oaths , and therefore i speak it , if so be you have any witnesses , because you pretend you are surprised , if you have really any , whereby you can make a better defence for your selves , then now , the court will incline to your request ; but if you have not , then 't is in vain to tarry . corker . my lord , i verily believe i shall have witnesses . l. c. j. as for the copy of the indictment it is never granted to any persons , and therefore must not be to you . l. c. j. n. you must give us clear satisfaction , that you are real in your pretences ; and must give us the names of your witnesses where they live , and let us know what they can say for you , that we may be satisfied ; for such a general alligation as this , any man living may make . mr. recorder . he was one of the ten that was appointed by the council to be tried ▪ l. c. j. why , you had notice a week ago , corker . but it was contradicted the next day . capt. richardson . i heard mr. clare say that he should not be tried then . mr. att. gen. he had notice together with the rest , but he was not in the first order of council for the trial of these persons , he sent to the clerk to know who were to be tried and his name was left out ; and so understood he was not to be tryed . on tuesday last i moved that he might be put into the order , and so he was , and now there is an order of council for it ; but he had notice a week ago as well as the rest . capt. richardson . i gave them notice that all were to prepare for their tryal as this day , and in order to that , i went to the council , to see what order was taken about it , and the clerk shewed me their names , amongst which corker was left out , and i told him corker had notice of trial , and therefore i desired i might have an order for him too ; they told me that there was no order taken about him . mr. att. gen. my lord , i would have all the gentlemen have all the fair play in the world , therefore if he can satisfie your lordship , that he can have any witnesses that he hath not now , i am content his tryal should stay to another time , l. c. j. you shall hear the indictment read , and there you will know what sort of treason it is you are charged with , and after that you will make your answer , whether you have any witnesses . mr. recorder . my lord , it will be necessary , that i give your lordship an account of one thing . on saturday night there came a gentlewoman to me on the behalf of all the prisoners , and said there were some witnesses , that she was under apprehension would not appear for the prisoners , unless they had some order , her name she told me was ireland , and she came in the name of all the prisoners , she said : i told her if she would bring me a note of the witnesses names they did desire , they should have all the assistanec the court could give them for the getting of their witnesses thi● day ; but since that time i never heard of the gentlewoman , or from the prisoners . l. c. j. mr. corker , you will do well to take notice , what you are charged withall , and afterwards tell us if there are any witnesses that can say any thing for your defence , at your tryal for those matters . clerk of cr. you stand indicted by the names of thomas white in the parish of st. giles in the fields in the county of middlesex clerk , otherwise called thomas whitebread of the same parish and county clerk , john fenwick of the same parish and county clerk , william harcourt of the same parish and county clerk , otherwise called william harrison of the same parish and county clerk , john gavan of the same parish , and county clerk , anthony turner of the same parish and county clerk , and james corker of the same parish , and county clerk. for that you , as false traitors against the most illustrious , most serene , and most excellent prince , charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france , and ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c. your supream and natural lord ; not having the fear of god in your hearts , nor weighing the duty of your allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , true , due and natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , towards him should and of right ought to bear ; wholly withdrawing and devising , and with all your strength intending the peace and common tranquility of this realm to disturb , and the true worship of god within this kingdom of england used , and by the law established , to overthrow , and the government of this realm to subvert , and sedition and rebellion within this kingdom of england to move , stir up and procure , and the cordial love and true and due obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , towards him should , and of right ought to bear , utterly to withdraw , put out , and extinguish , and our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring , and put , on the four and twentieth day of april , in the thirtieth year of the reign of our said soveraign lord , king charles the second , at the parish of st. giles in the fields , in the county of middlesex aforesaid ; you the said thomas white otherwise whitebread john fenwick , william harcourt otherwise harrison , john gavan , anthony turner and james corker , with diverse other false traitors subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , to the jurors unknown , falsly , subtilly , advisedly , maliciously and traiterously did purpose , compass , imagine and intend sedition and rebellion within this kingdom of england , to move , stir up and procure , and a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king to procure and cause , and our said soveraign lord the king of his kingly state , title , power and government of his said kingdom of england utterly to deprive , depose , cast down and disinherit , & him our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , and the government of this kingdom of england & the sincere religion of god within the same , rightly & by the laws of the same established , at your will & pleasure to change & alter , and the state of this whole kingdom of england , through all its parts well instituted & ordained , wholly to subvert and destroy , and war within this kingdom of england against our said soveraign lord the king to levy : and to accomplish and fulfil your said most wicked treasons and traiterous imaginations & purposes ; you the said thomas white otherwise whitebread , john fenwick , william harcourt otherwise harrison , john gavan , anthony turner and james corker , and other false traitors against our said soveraign lord the king , to the jurors unknown , the said four and twentieth day of april , with force and arms , &c. in the parish aforesaid , and county aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devillishly and traiterously did assemble , unite and gather your selves together , and then and there falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devillishly and traiterously did consult , consent and agree our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , and the religion of this kingdom of england , rightly and by the laws of the same established , to the superstition of the romish church to change and alter , and the government of this kingdom of england to subvert ; and that one thomas pickering and one john grove should kill and murder our said soveraign lord the king , and that you the said thomas white otherwise whitebread , john fenwick , william harcourt otherwise harrison , john gavan , anthony turner , james corker and other false traitors against our said soveraign lord the king , to the jurors unknown , should therefore say , celebrate and perform a certain number of masses , then and there amongst your selves agreed on for the soul of the said thomas pickering ; and for that cause should pay to the said john grove a certain sum if money then and there amongst your selves agreed on ; and that you the said thomas white otherwise whitebread , john fenwick , william harcourt otherwise harrison , john gavan , anthony turner and james corker and other false traitors to the jurors unknown , in further prosecution of the treasons and traiterous consultations and agreements aforesaid , afterwards the said four and twentieth day of april , at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , falsly , subtilly , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly and traiterously did severally each to the other engage your selves , and upon the sacrament traiterously swear and promise to conceal , and not to divulge the said most wicked treasons and traiterous compassings , consultations , and purposes aforesaid amongst your selves , had traiterously to kill and murder our said soveraign lord the king , and to introduce the romish religion within this kingdom of england , and the true reformed religion within this realm , rightly and by the laws of the same established , to alter and changes and that you the said thomas white otherwise whitebread , john fenwick , william harcourt alias harrison , john gavan , anthony turner and james corker and other false traitors , to the jurors unknown , in further prosecution of your said treasons and traiterous intentions and agreements aforesaid , afterwards the said four and twentieth day of april , at the parish aforesaid , and county aforesaid , falsly , subtilly , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly and traiterously did prepare , perswade , excite , abet , comfort and counsel four other persons to the jurors unknown , subjects of our said soueraign lord the king , traiterously our said soveraign lord the king to kill and murder , against the duty of your allegiance , against the peace of our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . how sayst thou thomas white alias whitebread , art thou guilty of this high treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? whitebread . my lord , i desire to speak one word ; i am advised by council , and i may , and ought to represent it to this court for not only my own life , but the lives of others of his majesties subjects , are concerned in it , that upon the th of december last , i was tryed upon the same indictment , the jury was impannell'd and called , i put my self into the hands of the jury , and the evidence was brought in and examin'd , particularly against me , and was found insufficient , so that the jury was dismissed without any verdict , i humbly submit my self to your lordships and this noble court , whether i may not have counsel in this point of law , to advise me , whether i may and ought to plead again the second time , for according to law , i am informed , no man can be put in jeopardy of his life the second time , for the same cause . lord ch. just . you say well mr. whitebread . whitebread . i speak it not for my sake only , but the sake of the whole nation , no man should be tried twice for the same cause , by the same reason , a man may be tried twenty or a hundred times . lord ch. just . you say well , it is observed mr. whitebread ; but you must know , that you were not put in jeopardy of your life for the same thing ; for first the jury were discharged of you ; it is true , it was supposed when you were indicted , that there would be two witnesses against you , but that fell out otherwise , and the law of the land requiring two witnesses to prove you guilty of treason , it was thought reasonable , that you should not be put upon the jury at all , but you were discharged , and then you were in no jeopardy of your life . whitebread . under favour my lord , i was in jeopardy ; for i was given in charge to the jury , and 't is the case of seyer , in . eliz , he was indicted for a burglary committed the st . of august , and pleaded to it , and afterwards another indictment was prefer'd , and all the judges did declare , that he could not be indicted the second time , for the same fact , because he was in jeopardy of his life again . lord ch. just . surely , you were not in jeopardy , and i 'le shew you how you were not , suppose you had pleaded , and the jury were sworn . whitebread . they were so in my case . lord ch. just . t is true they were , but supposing that presently upon that , some accident falls out , a witness is taken sick , and be feign to be carried a way , or for any reasonable cause , it should be thought fit by the court to discharge the jury of it , that they should not pass upon your life , are you in jeopardy then ? lo. ch , just . north. i would have you be satisfied with reason , and the course of law that other mens lives are under , as well as yours . the oath the jury take , is that they shall well and truly try , and true deliverance make of such prisoners , as they shall have in charge , the charge of the jury is not full , till the court give them a charge at the last , after evidence had , and because there was a mistake in your case , that the evidence was not so full as might be , the jury , before ever they considered concerning you at all , they were discharged , and so you were not in jeopardy , and i in my experience know it to be often done , and t is the course of law , the clerks will tell you t is frequently done here and at other places ; and this is not the same indictment , and it contains further matter , then that you pleaded to before . and then if you will make this plea good that you go upon , you must alledge a record , and shew some record to make it good , and that cannot be , because there is none , & so it will signifie nothing to you , as you have pleaded it . whitebread . i desire the record may be viewed , it remains with you , i do only present this to your lordship and the court , and desire i may have counsel . l. c. j. no , not all , there is no entry made of it . whit. i desire that counsel may advise me , for i am advised , that according to the law of the land , i ought not to plead again , & i hope your lorships , will be of counsel for me l , c. j. look you , mr. whitebread , there is no entry made upon it , and the reason is because there was no tryal , and there was no tryal , because there was no condemnation or acquittal , if there had been , then you had said something . whitebread . that which i ask is , whether i ought not to be condemned or acquitted . l. c. j. no , it is only in the discretion of the court. for if a man be indicted for murder , and some accident should happen , ( when the witness come to prove it ) that he should be taken ill , and so be carried away , should the murtherer escape ? whitebread . that is not my case , you may do as you please . l. c. j. but we shew , that it is in the discretion of the court to discharge the jury upon such accidents , and then the party is not in jeopardy . whitebread . i have onely pray'd your lordships discretion in this . l. c. j. you ought to plead , and most plead . l. c. j. north. i suppose if any of my brethren are of another opinion , then what we have expressed , they would say so . court. we are all of your opinon . l. c. j. all the judges of england are of the same opinion . mr. record . t is the constant practise . l. c. j. t is frequent in all places , it is no new thing . whitebread my lord i am satisfied . cl. of cr. thomas white alias whitebread , art thou guilty of the high treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? whitebread . not guilty . cl , of cr culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? whitebread by god & my countrey . cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance . john fenwick , art thou guilty of the same high treason , or not guilty ? fenwick . not guilty . cl. of crown . culprit , how wilt thou be tried ? fenwick . by god and my countrey . cl. of the crown , god send thee a good deliverance . fenwick . i was tried before with mr. whitbread , our case is the same , the onely reason , why ( i presume ) we were not proceeded against , was because the second witness declared he had nothing to say against us , that was mr. bedlow , who said , as to mr. whitbread and mr. fenwick , i have nothing to say against them ; if he had given the same evidence against us , as he had done against the rest , we had been condemned , and had suffered , and so i suppose we ought to have been discharged . l. c. j. no , it was not reasonable you should be discharged , it remains in the discretion of the court , not to let a man , that is accused of a great and capital crime escape , if there be one witness that swears expresly : do you think it reasonable such a man should go scotfree , though there wanted two that the law requires ? you were not in danger , your lives were not in jeopardy , fenwick . my lord , we were in the same danger with those three that suffered . l. c. j. no , we never let the jury go together to consider whether you were guilty , or not guilty , we did prevent your making your defence , because we thought it not a sufficient charge . c. of c. william harcourt alias harrison , how say'st thou , art thou guilty of the high treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty . harcourt . not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit , how wil● thou be tried ? harcourt . by god and my country . cl : of cr. god send thee a good deliverance . how saist thou john gaven alias gawen , art thou guilty of the same high treason , or not guilty ? gavan not guilty ? cl , of cr , culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? gawen . by god and my country , cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance . how saist thou anthony turner , art thou guilty of the same high treason , or not guilty ? turner , not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? turner , by god and my country . cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance l. c. j. mr. corker . you have heard the indictment read● 〈◊〉 what it consists of , a traiterous endeavour to subvert the government , to mor● 〈◊〉 king , to change the protestant religion into popery ; if you have any witnesses that can be serviceable to you as to these matters , name who they are , and where they live ; if you cannot , you had as good take your tryal now , as at another time . corker . i not only have no witnesses ready , but there are substantial circumstances , which peradventure may arise , which may induce your lordship to believe me innocent , and therefore i humbly beg , i may stay some short time to consult with those that are better skill'd in the law than i am . l. c. j. what do you mean to have counsell assigned you ? corker . my friends , my lord. lord ch. just . every man knows his own case be●● , you have been bread a scholar , and so you cannot be so ignorant as other men ar● you can tell whether you have any witnesses that you think are material for your defence . corker . that day of the th of april spoken of in the indictment , i truly and really believe i was not in town that day ; but i cannot positively prove it , because i heard not of it before . lord ch. just . is there any body that can testifie where you were that day ? can you name any one ? corker . yes , i believe i can name one , and that is one alice gaton , that is now miles out of town at tunbridge , who can prove where i did go about that time . lord ch. just . i l'e tell you what , if my brothers will , this woman you suppose can say something for you , we will respite your tryal for to day , send some body for her , and we will trie you to morrow . lord ch. just . north. or any other witnesses , for as to this th . day of april it is known to all the world to have been the day of the consult . but because you pretend a surprise , i must tell you , that mr. attorny sent you notice with the rest ; but because you might be led into another opinion that the council did not order it , you have the favour to be put off till to morrow : get your witnesses ready if you can . lord ch. just . if you have any other witnesses , or desire any order for their appearance , let us know it . corker . i desire i may have liberty to have my tryal put off till monday . lord ch. just . north. no , it cannot be , monday is the assogin day , and then the commission will be out . lord ch. just . call the jury . cl. of cr. thomas white alies whitebread , hold up thy hand ( and so as to the rest . ) you the prisoners at the bar , those men that you shall hear call'd and personally appear , are to pass between our soveraign lord the king and you , upon tryal of your several lives and deaths ; if therefore you or any of you will challenge them , or any of them , your time is to speak unto them as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . call sir philip matthews . whitebread . we challenge him my lord , that there may not be any further trouble , it is our general petition , that none of those that were for any of the former tryals may be of this jury , they having already pass'd their judgment upon the evidence they have heard . lord ch. just . you may challenge them . and therefore ( speaking to the clerk of the crown ) dont take any that were upon the last jury for this cause ▪ gavan . nor any of the former juries ; we do this that we may avoid giving your lordship any farther trouble , because if we should stay upon particulars we should too much trouble the court. lord ch. just . north. look you , i will tell you by the way , you have the liberty to challenge peremptorily so many . all we can do , is to give direction to the clerk , if he do not pursue it , we do not know them , we can't tell , you must look after that . mr. recorder . you have the books , wherein are notes of all their names by you . then the jury that were sworn , were these twelve . jury . thomas harriott . william gulston . allen garraway . richard cheney . john roberts . thomas cash . rainsford waterhouse . matthew bateman . john kaine . richard white . richard bull , and thomas cox. cl. of cr. cryer , count these thomas harriott . cryer . one , &c. cl. of cr. thomas cox. cryer . twelve , good men and true , stand together and here your evidence then the usual proclamation for infornation was made , and the jury-men of middle-sex summon'd and not sworn , were dismiss'd till next morning eight of the clock . cl. of cr. thomas white alias whitebread , hold up thy hand , ( and so to the rest ) you gentlemen that are sworn , look upon the prisoners , and hearken to their cause ; they stand indicted by the names of thomas white , &c. ( put in the indictment mutatis mutandis ) and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . upon this indictment they have been arraigned , and thereunto have severally pleaded not guilty , and for their tryals have put themselves upon god and their country , which country you are . your charge is to enquire whether they , or any of them are guilty of the high treason whereof they stand indicted , or not guilty . if you find them , or any of them guilty , you are to enquire what goods or chattels , lands or tenements they had at the time of the high treason committed , or at any time since ; if you find them or any of them not guilty , you are to enquire whether they fled for it if you find that they fled for it , you are to enquire of their goods and chattels as if you had found them guilty ; if you find them not guilty , nor that they nor any of them fled for it , say so and no more , and hear your evidence . then mr. belwood , of counsel for the king in this cause , open'd the indictment thus : mr. belwood . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . the prisoners at the bar , thomas white alias whitbread , john fenwick , william harcourt alias harrison , john gavan and anthony turner , together with james corker , stand indicted of high treason ; 't is charged in the indictment , that the th of april , in the th year of the king that now is , these persons , with other traitors unknown , did purpose and conspire to stir up sedition and rebellion : to cause a miserable slaughter of the kings subjects ; to depose the king of his government , and bring him to death ; and to change the government and religion by laws established , and to levy war against the king. and 't is further charged in the indictment , that pursuant of this intention of theirs , and the better to bring it to pass , they did assemble , consult and agree , first , to bring his maiesty to death , to murther the king , and thereupon to change the religion established by law , to the superstition of the romish-church , and to subvert the whole government ; and it was agreed that pickering and grove should murther the king , and that therefore whitebread , and the rest of the persons indicted , should say a number of m●sses for the soul of pickering . and grove , for this piece of service , was to have a sum of money . and the indictment says further , that these persons did take the sacrament to commit this treason with more secrecy ; and that they did likewise prepare , excite , abet and counsel four other unknown persons to kill the king at windsor . all these facts are said to be done advisedly , maliciously , traiterously and devilishly , and against their allegiance to the king ; to this they have pleaded not guilty ; if the kings evidence prove it , you are to find it so . and then sir creswell levinz , one of the king 's learned council in the law , proved the charge thus , sir cr. levinz may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; th●se prisoners at the 〈◊〉 by persuasion papists , by order and d●●●●● th●● are all priests . by the law of the land , viz : by a statute made the th of eliz. they are all guilty of treason for being priests , and they might be tryed as such , and ought todye for it , but that is not the fact that they are charged with , nor will they have the satisfaction to●ay that they suffer for their religion ; no , they are charged with a treason of a blacker and darker nature . and tho i must tell you , that it is now almost years ago since that statute was made against priests coming into england , yet examples have been very rare that any of this sort of men have dyed for their religion , within that queens time , or any of her successors ; yet they have dyed upon worse accompts , and upon such accompts as they are now brought to this bar for , such is the difference between their religion and ours , they have been suffered to live here under a law by which they ought to dye . they kill the protestants by thousands , without law or justice , witness their bloody doing at mirendol , their massacre as paris , their barbarous cruelty in ireland , since the year . and those in piedmont since . but these are not the crimes they are charged with , they are not accused for their religion , but for the blackest and darkest treason that men can be charged with . they are charged with an endeavour to murder the king , under whose protection they lived , this murther of the king hath been carried on in the design of it , with all the malice and resolution that can be from the first time that we can give you an account of it , which was the th . of april . when these persons and several others , did first assemble about other matters of their own , and among the rest to murther the king : there they came to resolution that it should be done , and persons were appointed to do it , these were grove and pickering , who have been executed for it ; they were to kill the king in st. jame's - park but it pleased god , that the flint of the pistol failed , to which we are more beholding than to them that he escaped that time . they were not satisfiyd with that , but they send down four butchers to murther him at windsor , who being disappointed , they sent down others after that to murther him at new-market ; and when all these failed , they had recourse to that treacherous and vnmanly way of poysoning him , and hired one so to do , and they did not only intend to murther the king , but to make it good by force when they had done . they intended to raise an army ; they had got commissions to several persons in the kingdom to command these forces . they designed to raise men to maintain the injustice when then they had done it . and that was not all , they had a recourse to forreign assistance , and depended upon forreign succours , if they were not made good at home . gentlemen , they have been disappointed in all these things ; they had an intention further ( as i find it in my brief , ) to make a general massacre of all protestants here . a thing that they have done , and we have heard of abroad , but thanks be to god , we never knew it experimentally at home . and i hope god that hath preserved us hitherto , will preserve us still . the mercy these men have met with , in being suffered to live under the danger of the statute , by which they might have justly dyed , hath not prevailed upon or bettered them at all , but been turned into monstrous ingratitude , and made them more desperate than other people would have been . gentlemen , when all this is opened , i must tell you , if th●se persons be innocent , god forbid they should suffer , but if they be guilty , surely they are not fit to live among men : and truly if they be guilty , they do not only deserve to dye , but to dye a more cruel and miserable death then either the mercy of our prince , or the moderation of our laws hath provided for such offenders . i shall detain you no longer but will call the witnesses , and then you shall judg whether they be guilty or not . and we begin with mr. oates . ( who was sworn . ) sir cr. levinz . pray what can you say to these gentlemen ? begin with mr. 〈…〉 . lord ch. just . mr. oates , apply your evidence as distinctly as you can to one person at first , unless where the matter will take in all , or more then one of them . dr. oates . my lord , i have evidence i desire may be called in , i shall have occasion to use them . gavan . it may be inconvenint . he may instruct his witnesses . lord ch. just . north. no , he shall not , for we will take care of that ; but name your witnesses . dr. oates . there is sir richard barker , mr. walter a minister , mrs. mayo , philip page , mr. william smith , and one mr. clay , mr. butler , mrs. sarah ives . mr. just atkins . take a note of their names , and send for them . lord ch. just . now , mr. oates , go on with your evidence . and when there is occasion to make use of these persons , they shall be call'd . dr. oates . the prisoner at the bar , mr. whitebread , was made & constituted provincial so as it was publickly known to us in the month of december last was month , & he did order by vertue of his authority one father george conyers , to preach in the sodality of the english seminary , on the holyday which they call st. thomas of canterbury , i. e. thomas of beckets day , in which there was order given that mr. conyers should preach & assert this doctrine ; that the oaths of allegiance and supremacy were heretical , antichristian & devillish : accordingly this order was executted , and the sermon preached . mr. whitebread in the month of january , wrote letters ( or at least-wise in the beginning of february , i will not be positive as to the time , because it does not occur to my memory , ) to st. omers , concerning the state of ireland , of which he had an accompt from arch-bishop talbot , who wrote him word , that there were several thousands of irish , that were ready to rise , when the blow should be given in england . lord ch. just . was that in whitebreads's letter ? doctor oates . yes , my lord , and mr. whitebread did say , he did hope it would not be long ere it was given . now , my lord , by the word blow , we did use to understand and had instructions to understand , the death and murder of the king ; and in the month of january , i think it was , that he sent over two jesuits into ireland , to see how the state of affairs stood there : in the beginning of april they returned , of which we had an account from mr. whitebread , by letters , wherein there was mention of a consult to be held in the month of april old stile , and may new stile ; & according to the order there given , there met at that consult , the prisoners at the bar , whitebread , fenwick , harcourt , and turner , and if it please your lordship , all these at that consult did sign a resolve , mr whitebread at his chamber , which was at wild-house , mr. fenwick at his lodgings in dru●y-lane , and mr. harcourt , who had some at his chamber in duke-street . but my lord , i am to premise this before i go any further , that the consult was begun at the whitehorse tavern in the strand , and there they did agree to send father cary , to be their procurator at rome ; and after some such things were done , they adjourned into several clubs or colloquies , or what you please to call them . one was at mr. vvhitebread's chamber , another at ireland's chamber , that is executed , another at harcourt's ; and another at fenwick's . now here was a resolve signed by these prisoners at the bar , in which . lord ch. just . that is four of them , whitebread , fenwick , harcourt , and turner . dr. oates . yes , my lord. lord ch. just . was gavan there ? dr. oates . i dare not , my lord affect him with that , because i cannot be positive , but i le give you my evidence against him by and by . my lord , these four gentlemen , with the rest of their accomplices , did sign a resolve , which was this , that pickering , and grove should go on in their attempt to dispatch the king ; and this they did resolve upon , and gave it as their judgment , as a very excellent expedient . my lord , after this consult we did return , ( we were or that came over ) and may it please your lordships , in the month of june , ( i think it was june ) he came to flanders , in order to visit his colledges , being provincial of the jesuits of england : he did stay there ( as near as i can remember ) till the of june , and enquiring of the fathers how squares went in town , among other expressions he used , this was one , that he hoped to see the black fools head at whitehall , laid f●st enough , and that if his brother should appear to follow in his footsteps , his pasport should be made too , ( or to that purpose ) he should be dispatch'd . upon the th . of june old stile , the . new stile , i had orders to come for england , according to which order i came , and did take the pacquet-boat , as near as i can remember , the th , which was th old stile , and we landed at dover the th very early in the morning ; and when i was at dover , i met with the prisoner at the bar , mr. fenwick , and he , my self and some others , did take coach , and come as far as canterbury , after we had eaten and drunk there we came six miles further , where there was a box seized by the searchers of the town of borton , and this box was brought up by mr. fenwick , and directed to one blundel , and the superscription was ( as near as i can remember ) in these words , to the honourable richard blundel esq . at london . and this prisoner at the bar , mr. fenwick did desire that the searchers would send it to him , ( it was full of beads and crucifixes , and such things ) to the fountain tavern near charing-cross , and writ a letter to him , by the name of mr. thompson , a that was the name he usually went by , when he came to dover , and he had then brought some students there , to send over to st. omers , l. c. j. when went fenwick ? dr. oates . when i came to dover , i met fenwick , by the name of thompson , going to send over the students , and fenwick did say , if they had searched his pockets , as they had searched his box , they had found such letters as would have cost him his life ; for saith he , they were about our concern in hand . then we came up to london , and arrived at london the th . of june old stile , for we lay a part of the way at sittenburgh in the morning , and in the afternoon we came to dartford , and came to london monday noon the th . old stile . and in the month of july there was one richard ashby , whose right name indeed is thimbleby , but he went by the name of ashby , and this gentleman did bring over instructions from the prisoner at the bar , mr. whitebread , who was abroad in flanders , wherein he was to propose l. to sir george wakeman , to poison the king , and several other instructions there were , of which i cannot now give you an account ; and withal that a blank commission should he filled up , and ordered for sir john gage , to be a military officer in the army , and by that gentleman 's own orders i delivered that commission into sir john gages own hand , on a sunday . lord ch. just . where had you that commission from whitebread ? dr. oates . it was signed and sealed by him , but it was a blank , and was to be filled up . l. c. just . where ? dr. oates . it was at wild-house . l. c. j. how was it filled up ? dr. oates . it was filled up by mr. whitebreads order , it was signed and sealed blank , and he ordered it to be filled up , and me to take that commission , and carry it to sir john gage . whitebread . did i order you ? dr. oates . you ordered ashby , i saw the letter , and knew it to be whitebreads hand . l. c. j. was it before he went to st. omers ? dr. oates . it was while he was at st. omers . whiteb. what day was it ? what hour ? dr. oates . it was in july . whiteb. what time of the month ? dr. oates . the beginning or middle . whiteb. are you sure it was in july ? dr. oates . i cannot be positive , but i think it to be in july , for ashby went to the bath the latter end of july , or the beginning of august , and it was before he went. whiteb. who was present at the signing of this commission ? dr. oates . there was present at the filling up of this commission , mr. harcourt , mr. ashby and mr. ireland . fenvick . was not i there ? dr. oates . i think , i filled it up . i 'le tell you when you were there presently . my lord , when ashby went away , fenwick went out of town , but returned again presently to give an account how squares went , and really i cannot remember where he had been , but as near as i can , it was in essex , i will not be positive in it ; but my lord , this same gentleman mr. fenwick , with mr. harcourt , did advise mr. ashby , that as soon as he had been at the bath he should go and give an account to the people in sommersetshire , and there away , his circuit would be short and very easie ▪ and he did not question , but before he came up ●o town again , to have the gentleman at whitehal dispatch'd whom they called the black bastard , now i leave that to the jury to expound , whom they meant by it . fenwick , what time was that , sir , pray ? you must time things , or you do nothing at all . dr. oates . it was the latter end of july , or the beginning of august , it was about the the time of ashbys going to the bath . fenw. just now he said , it was in the beginning or middle of july . dr. oates . i●e tell your lordship what i said , that this ashby or thimbleby came from st. omers with those orders or instructions , either the beginning of july , or the middle of july . fenw. i would not interrupt you mr. oates , this was sometime before mr. ashby went to the bath , was it not ? dr. oates . it was about a day before . l. c. j. he says a thing that is plain enough : ashby came over about the beginning or middle of july , with instructions about the commission ; and about the latter end of july , or beginning of august , as he remembers , this advice was given . dr. oates . and so we are arrived at the affairs in august , which reflects upon these gentlemen ; but now i must speak a word to this gentleman mr. gavan , the prisoner at the bar , whom when i saw come into the lobby , he had gotten on a periwig ; so there was one asked me , whether i knew him ? i know him now , but truly then i did not well know him , because he was under that mask , and i could not say any thing against him then , because he being under an ill ●avoured peeriwig , and being a man that i knew had a good head of hair of his own , i did not well understand the mystery of it , and so spared my evidene at that time , from informing the council against him ; but the prisoner at the bar came by the name of gavan , and we used to call him by the name of father gavan : and this gentleman did in the month of june write letters — gavan . what year ? dr. oates . in the year . and did give the fathers at london , an account how affairs stood in staffordshire , and shropshire , and how diligent one father evers was to manage affairs in those countries . gavan . from whence were those letters sent ? dr. oates . there was only the day of the month , you know it is not the custome to date the place . when i saw the letter first , i did not know it was his hand , i took it upon report ; but i will tell the jury by and by , how i came to know it was his hand : as near as i can remember , it was in the month of july , ( it was july or august ) this gentleman came to town , and i saw this gentleman at mr. irelands chamber . gavan . what time of the month ? dr. oates . it was in july , as near as i can guess . gavan . upon my salvation i am as innocent as a child unborn . lord ch. just . north. by this means you may put out any witness in the world by interupting them . when the witness hath done his testimony , you may ask him any questions to ascertain the time or any thing ; but you must not interrupt him till he hath done . dr. oates . in the latter part of july i think it was , but it was as i remember while mr. ashby was in town , i met him at mr. irelands chamber , for he was a saying he would go see father ashby before he went out of town , and he gave such an account to father ireland of the affairs in staffordshire & shropshire , as he had given in the letter before ; but to prove his hand , he did draw a bill upon one sir william andrews in essex , for the payment of some money of some little sucking priests , that were stroleing up and down the country . i saw him write it , and it was the same hand with that letter . gavan . what did i write . l , c. j. you drew a bill upon such a person , and he names him . dr. oates . we are now come to august . l. c. j. but you say he discoursed about the same things with ireland , that he had wrote in the letter . dr. oates . ye● my lord. gavan . and what were those same things ? dr. oates . why , how the affairs stood in staffordshire and shropshire , how my lord stafford was very diligent . i desire to be excused as to that , because it will diminish my evidence in another part of it : i le tell you part of what was then discoursed of . gavan . my lord , he is sworn to speak all the truth . l. c. j , you must speak the whole truth , as far as it concerns any of these perons . dr. oates . he gave an account how prosperous things were in those countrys , and did say , that there was at least two or three thousand pounds that would be ready in that country , for the carrying on the design , i think it was three , but it was betwixt two and three . now my lord we are arrived to our business in august , about the th . of august as near as i remember ; but it was between the th . and the th : therein i am positive ; ireland , which is executed , took his leave of us , as if he were to go to st. omers . l. c. j. where did he take his leave ? dr. oates . at his chamber in russel-street . ireland went out of town , and fenwick by that means was to be treasurer and procurator to the society altogether . he had that employ afterward upon him during his absence , let mr. ireland go whither he would . and the . of aug. which as near as i remember fell upon a wednesday , mr. fenwick and mr. harcourt were met together at wildhouse , and some other fathers , as father kaines , and one father blundell , and some other fathers whom i cannot remember . gavan . was i there , pray sir ? dr. oates . no , no sir , i am not to talk to you still , i am to speak to the court. lord ch. just . north. we would recommend this to you , to name persons when you speak of them . dr. oates . where i have occasion i will name them , my lord. mr. fenwick and harcourt were together at wildhouse , and mr. kaines and mr. blundell , and as near as i remember , mr. langworth was there , but i wont be positive . and there lay before them at wildhouse fourscore pounds , the most of that money was guineys , which was to be paid to the four irish russians that were to murther the king at windsor . after it was agreed that they should do it , and coleman who was executed came thither , and gave the messenger a guiney to expedite the journey . we drew off from wildhouse , and went to master harcourts chamber , and because master harcourt had there left his papers that were to be sent down to windsor , there he paid the messenger the money . and , that gentleman was present there , mr. fenwick , and this is another part of august's business . no sooner was this messenger dispatch'd but within a day after or a day before ; but it was a day after , as near as i can remember , there was a consult held at the benedictines convent , at which mr. fenwick was present and mr. harcourt , and there they had some more irish news from the irish archbishop talbot , who did give an account of the irish affairs , how they did conspire the death of the duke of ormond ; and desired to know how affairs went in england , and desired some commissions might be sent over to some particular persons , there to raise forces for the carrying on of the design , and some money to be transmitted to them . and mr. fenwick did bring the commissions from wildhouse ( as near as i remember ) but he did bring them with him , and sent them down by a special messenger to chester , and some letters by the post . that of the post i know of my own knowledge , but that of the special messenger i had only from his own mouth . my lord , from the th . of august , as near as i remember it fell of a saturday , bartholomew day it was , but whether it fell of a saturday i cannot be positive , but if the court please to inform themselves of it by their almanacks , they may . l. c. j. there is no great matter in that i suppose . dr. oates . but this gentleman , mr. fenwick , did deliver me some money for my necessary incident charges , but did admonish me to procure some masses to be said for a prosperous success upon the design . upon the th . day , i saw mr. fenwick in the afternoon at his chamber , and he was to go on the th . day the next day to st. omers , and to carry or students to go there to study humanity : and this is the account i have to give to mr. fenwick . for after i took my leave of him here , i saw him no more till he was apprehended . l. c. j. this was about the th . of august , was it not ? dr. oates . yes , my lord , it was the th of august . l. c. j. well , go on sir. dr. oates . the st . or d. of september we received a letter ( in the beginning it was ) from mr. whitebread , and this letter they did say was a foreign letter , and yet it paid but pence , by which i did conclude that mr. whitebread was come into england , and lay some where privately , or was not yet come to town . on the third of september i went to mr. whitebreads chamber ( at night ) but he being at supper was not to be spoken with ; but when he saw me the next morning , he did revile me and strike me , and asked me with what face i could look upon him , seeing i had dealt so treacherously with them . now after that i had inquired in what respect , he answered in the discovering of the business , for there was a gentleman that went to the king in this business , to whom i had communicated much of my information by dr. tongue . this gentleman had the same coloured cloaths that i had , and so they not being able to give an account of the name of the person , gave only an account of the habit he was in , and therefore they charged me with it . after i had justified my self as well as i could , mr. whiebread did shew me a letter which came from one beddingfield , alias benningfield , which did shew the plot was discovered , and they were like to be undone , if it had not been for the five letters that were sent down to windsor and intercepted , which made all to be looked upon as counterfeit ; after that , i justified my self as well as i could . he told me he would be friends with me , provided i would give an account of the party , and of the minister that went with him . and this is what i have to say against mr. whitebread , and the prisoners at the bar ; but only this : because sir george wakeman did not accept of l. that was proposed to him to poyson the king , this gentleman offered that l. more should be added . l. c. j. which gentleman ? dr. oates . mr. whitebread . and l. was accepted , and when it was accepted , whitebread did greatly rejoyce that the money was accepted to poyson the king. whitebread , did i tell you so ? dr. oates . no , there was a letter told me so , but you were in flanders then ; sir cr. levins , what have you to say against mr. turner ? dr. oates , i speak as to his being at the consult in april , and signing the resolve of the death of the king. l. c. j. was mr. gavan at that consult the th of april ? dr. oates , mr. gavan was summoned to that consult , but among men i cannot particularly say he was there , but i saw his name signed as to the kings death , but i cannot say i saw his person . l. c. j. can you say you saw his hand writing ? dr. oates . i do believe it was his . l , c. j. did you ever see any writing of his , but when he signed the bill of exchange ? dr. oats . my lord , i never saw him write but that time . it was an ill pen as it seemed that he writ his name wi●h to the consult , and i did not take so particular notice of the being of his name there , till we saw the instructions in july , and then i did look over the consult particularly . l. c. j , but i say , did you ever see his hand writing before he writ the bill ? dr. oates . my lord , i never saw his hand but that time . l. c. j. and that by your comparing was like the hand of the letter about staffordshire ? dr. oates . by that i prove the letter to be written from him . it was like it , and was all as one . l. c. j. was it like the hand that was to the consult ? dr. oates . that i cannot say . l. c. j. i thought you had said he confess'd the contents of the letter , when he came out of staffordshire ? dr. oates . i do say this of mr. gavan , that he wrote such a letter , and when he came to town he did give an accompt of all the passages that the letter did contain , which was concerning the raising of mony in staffordshire , and the parts he was concerned in : and this was the accompt he gave . l. c j. dr. oates , you positively say , that whitebread . fenwick and harcourt were there ? dr. oates , yes , my lord , for mr. whitebread was provincial and presidential of the assembly . sir cr. levinz . and turner was there ? dr. oates . yes , he was , sir cr levinz . dr. oates , what was that mony rais'd for ? dr. oates they said it was for the carrying on of the design . l. c. j. and what design was that ? dr. oates . our design . and that was the subversion of the government , and destruction of the king. l. c. j. now if you please you may aske him any question . gav . mr. oates , you say you saw my name to a letter for the taking up of money . to whom was that letter writ ? dr. oates . there was a letter from you to mr. ireland . and he did receive it by the hands of grove , gavan , where was that money to be taken up ? dr , oates , my lord , i say , that letter was received by grove , who is out of the way , and can't prove it , and was delivered to ireland , l.c. j. i perceive your memory is not good . gav , i perceive his memory is very good . dr. oates , this letter did give an account of the business of staffordshire ▪ and the particulars of that mr. gavan did afterwards give an accompt of by word o mouth , and ●ome other things not fit to be named . gavan , pray , where was it sir , that i gave an account of it , in london , or in the country ? dr. oates , in london . gavan , in what month , dr , oates , in july it was . gavan , what part of july ? dr. oates . it was when mr. ashby was in town , the beginning or middle . gavan . just now you said it was in the latter end . dr. oates . my lord , i beg this favour , that if the prisoners at the bar ask any questions , they may be proposed to the court , for they are nimble in their questions , and do a little abuse the evidence . they put things upon them that they never say . mr. just , pemberton . propose your questions to the bench , that you would have asked . gavan , i will do so , my lord , in whose honour i have more confidence than in whatsoever mr. oates says or swears . l. c. j. but he tells you who you drew your bill of exchange upon , and that was sir william andrews . l. c. j. north , don't give the king's witnesses ill words . l. c. j. have you any more to ask , any of you ? whitebread . yes , my lord. l. ch , just . see if you can catch him , he gives you a long and exact accompt as can be given by any man in england , and pray direct your self , mr. whitebread , to the court. whitebread . he says he was here in april , and at the consult ▪ now i desire to know , how long before that time were you & i acquainted ? dr. oates . why , before that time i never saw mr. whitbread's face . whitebread . what imployment were you to have ? and what reward ? dr. oates . when i came away from st. omers , i was to attend the motion of the fathers at your chamber , and to carry the resolve from chamber to chamber , where the fathers were respectively met . fenwick . was not you at the white-horse-tavern ? dr. oates , yes , i was there . fenwick . did you dine there ? dr , oates , no , our stay was short there . fenwick . how long did you stay in town ; dr. oates . truly i can't tell you exactly , but from the time i came into england , to the time i went our again , was under twenty days . fenwick , who were they that came over with you ? name the parties . dr. oa . i will tell you who they were ; but it 's so long since , i can't exactly remember . fenwick . you need not trouble your memory , you have them in your narrative . dr. oates , my lord there was father williams the rector of wotton , the rector of leige . sir john warner , sir thomas preston , and some others . whitebread , was not mr. nevel there ? dr. oates , i believe he was , it is like he might be there . whitebread . was not sir robert brett there ? dr. oates , i believe he might . whitebread . you have said so in your narrative , l. c. j. perhaps a man will venture to write more than he will swear ; not that he does write what he does not believe , but that he knows he ought to be more cautious in his oath , than in his affirmation . fenwick my lord with your lordships favour , it is upon oath . l.c.j.n. fenwick you are in a court of law , and we must go according to the law , if you will prove any contradiction in him to his oath , you must bring the persons here that saw him take the oath ; and you must not think to take a pamphlet for evidence . fenwick it was sworn before a justice of peace , and will not , i suppose , be denied , and therefore he must make his evidence agree with it , being part of his narrative . gavan , you speak of one thing in august , and of another in july ; which month saw you me in ? dr. oates , i told you i saw you in town in july , and when father ashby or thimbleby was in town . and you said you would go and see him , just . pemberton , he says it was in july , and that is enough . gavan , what time in july ? dr. oates , it was towards the middle or latter end . gavan , was it before mr. ashby went to the bath ? dr. oates , it was so . lord chief just . he says he saw you in town when ashby was in town , which was towards the latter end of july , or beginning of august . he cannot tell exactly whether , but positively he says before mr. ashby went to the bath . lord chief just . north , well , to satisfie you , we will ask mr. oates the question again . can you recollect whether it was the middle or latter end of july ? dr. oates , my lord , as near as i can remember , it was about the middle of july that ashby came to town , and he did not stay in town above a fortnight . and it was whilst he was in town , and designed to go down to the bath , that this gentleman came to town , and gave accompt of the particulars of that letter . lord chief just . north , you may ask him any questions , but i would have you observe what accompt he gives , that about the middle of july , ashby came to town , that he staied in town about a fortnight as he believes , that during that time , you came to town , and then was this discourse . dr. oates , during that time i saw him in town , but i know not exactly when it was . gavan , my lord , i would ask him one question , the thing that is brought against me , is this , he says mr. ashby came to town in the middle of july ; that he stayed in town a fortnight ; that while he was there i came to town and had such discourse . now my lord , i desire to know whether it was the first week or last week that ashby was in town that he saw me . lord chief just . if he can answer it , let him . dr. oates , my lord , i cannot . lord chief just . he tells you he cannot charge his memory with it . dr. oates . no , my lord , nor will not . lord chief just . really i believe there is scarce one in all this company able to give an accompt of a particular time of a passage so long ago . gavan . no doubt he hath an excellent memory . lord chief just . and if he had not some memorials of this , he could not do it . and though he hath memorials of the most eminent passages , yet we cannot suppose he hath of all circumstances . gavan , but this is the substance ; and your lorship may conceive that not without reason i urge it ; for if mr. ashby came to town the beginning of july , and stayed but a fortnight in town , and i came to town while he was here , it must be in one of the two last weeks . now i would have it assertain'd , because i may disprove it in one week or in the other . lord chief just . 't is true you did not amiss in asking the question , if he were able to answer it ; but if it be either , it is enough to prove you guilty . gaven . pray was it only one time or diverse ; that you saw me in london ? dr. oates . it was but one day , but as near as i remember : i saw you twice that day ; and i le tell it you by a particular circumstance , that i saw you in the afternoon when you were a little illish , and there was a cordial brought to you by an apothecary , that went by the name of walpoole . l. c. j. here is memory refresh'd by a circumstance you see . whether was it brought to him . dr. oates , to ireland's chamber . gaven , who brought it sir ? l. c. j. an apothecary he says , whose name was walpoole . gavan . my lord , i never saw walpoole in all my life . l. c. j. i believe he is known well enough such an one as walpoole the apothecary : but aske what questions you will. dr. oates . i cannot say whether it was walpoole himself , or his man that brought it . gavan . i do as truly believe there is a god , and heaven , and an hell , as any one here does , as i hope for salvation , as i hope to see god in heaven , i never saw mr. oates before the day in january , when he says i had the periwig on , and he did not know me : and as for july , i call god to witness , i never saw him then . l. c. j. you were in town in july ? gavan . upon my salvation i was not in london . l. c. j. you 'l prove that by and by . fenwick . i hope , my lord , we may ask him any questions in the court , of our evidence , to make things clear ? l. c. j. yes you may . turner . did you ever see me in all your life , before you saw me at whitehall ? dr. o. you were then in a disguised habit , & a nasty periwig , & i did not know you so well . turner . you at whitehall , was pleased to tell me , i went by another name . dr. oates , i don't value names but your person , you are the man. l. c. j. you are the man he says , turner . did you see me at the consult ? dr. oates . i saw the man that speaks to me . turner , who was there ? and how many were present ? dr. oates . there were about . or . l. c. j. when you have but one name a piece , then he can hit it right , but when you have so many names , then you are too hard for him . turner . did you see me at the whitehorse ? dr oates , that i will not say ; for when they were in lesser clubs or colloquies , i was sure of better acquaintance with them . turner , where was it you saw me ? dr. oates , at mr. fenwicks chamber . turner , at whitehall , you said , it was at wild-house . dr. oates , my lord , because the chiefest part of the consult sate at wild-house , we called all it the consult at wild-house . l. c. j. i 'le ▪ your defence will be little else but captiousness , to disprove him in circumstances of time , place , persons , or numbers ; now all these are but little matters to the substance : t is true , mr. whitebread , if you can prove you were not at that place a that time , it will do you great service . have you any thing more to say to him ? lord ch. just . north , i hope your witnesses are in readiness , that you were sp● 〈◊〉 ●f , to fortify your testimony ? dr. oates , yes , my lord , they are , i desire they may be heard . lord chief justice , by and by , when occasion is . jury , my lord , i desire he may be asked one question . l. c. j. mr. garraway , what question would you aske him ▪ jury , where it was that he saw mr. turner at the consult . dr. oates , i saw him at fenwick chamber , where he was a member of the consult ; and being so , i saw him sign the resolve of the kings death . lord chief just . did you see him ? dr. oates , yes , i did . sir cr●sw . levins , then we desire mr. dugdale may be sworn : ( which was done . ) come , mr. dugdale , pray will you tell my lord and the jury , what you know concerning whitebread and harcourt ? first about whitebread . mr. dugdale , my lord , i have very little acquaintance with the man , i have seen him at tixall , with my old lady aston . lord chief just . when ? mr. dugdale , i dare not speak the time , but appeal to him himself , about the truth of it . lord chief just . is it years ago ? mr. dugdale , it is two or three years ago . lord chief just . well , what can you say against him ; mr. dugdale , mr. whitebread did write a letter that i saw under his own hand , inclosed in a letter from mr. groves , to mr. ewers , wherein he gave mr. ewers a caution , to be sure to choose those that were very trusty , it was no matter whether they were gentlemen or no , so they would be but stout and couragious : this was the purport of the letter , i cannot say the words exactly , but that he should chose those that were hardy and desperate , or to that purpose . lord chief just . pray where was it you saw that letter ? mr. dugd. at tixall . lord chief just . how came you to see it ? mr. dugdale , because all the letters were directed to me , that came to mr. ewers inclosed in mr. groves letters : and so i intercepted the letter and read it . lord chief just . what was mr. ewers ? mr , dugdale , a jesuit , my confessor ; for i was entertained by mr. gavan to be in the conspiracy of the kings death , and so i was by several others . lord chief just . you were not acquainted with mr. whitebreads hand , were you ? mr. dugdale , my lord , i only came acquainted with mr. whitebreads hand , by seeing him write a letter at tixal , which he delivered to me to send . l. c. just . i pray let me understand you : you say that mr. whitebread did write a letter to mr. ewers , inclosed in one from mr. grove , wherein he advised that he should entertain lusty stout fellows , and no matter whether they were gentlemen , or to that effect : now i ask you how you do know that was whitebreads hand ? or was it his name only that was to it ? mr. dugdale , my lord , i saw his name at it . lord chief just . when you saw that letter : had you ever seen his hand before ? mr. dugdale , yes , my lord , i saw it to another letter which i saw him write . ●●rd chief just . and that was like the hand in the letter to ewers's , was it ? 〈◊〉 dugdale , yes , i do almost positively swear it was the same hand . 〈◊〉 ch. just , but what say you to gavan and ewers ? 〈◊〉 ●●gdale , there were several consultations in mr. ewers's chamber , my 〈…〉 at boscobel , and several other places , mr. gavan might he so ingenuous to 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 chief baron , what were those consultations for ? mr. dugdale , for conspiring the kings death , and introducing of popery , mr. gavan was chiefly made use of , as a good orator and learned man , ●●●d a good scholar to perswade people into the design , this i speak as to these person● . lord chief just . pray go on sir , for you shall have a full scope , for you never were a witness in any of the trials before ; and you may take your own way , and you shall be heard , you shall not be interrupted ; for what you say is very considerable . mr. dugdale , one meeting i think was in september last , it was a● ●●●●l , and there was my lord stafford , and several others . lord chief just . was gavan there ? mr. dugdale , yes , mr. gavan was there , i suppose he will not deny it . mr. justice pemberton , don't rely upon that , he will deny it , you may be sure , go on . you say he was there ? mr. dugdale , yes , and that was to carry on the design : and i was by to hear . i think mr. ireland was in the countrey then , there was you , ( speaking to mr. gavan ) mr. peters , mr. lewson , and mr. ewers , at this consult , and there was another , my lord stafford , and others that i cannot now name . gavan , what time ? mr. dugdale . it was in september , . gavan , what day ? mr. dugdale , i think it was . september . lord chief justice , what was that consult and conspiracy about , in short ? mr. dugdale , it was for the introducing of popery , and taking away the life of the king , i being a person chosen out for that purpose , and was to besent to london by mr. harcourt , to be under the tuition of mr. parsons . lord chief justice , pray who mentioned this ? was that the first time that ever they discoursed of the death of the king ? mr. dugdale , no , my lord , it was two years ago , but i speak of a shorter time . lord chief justice . who began the discourse ? mr. dugdale . mr gavan often discoursed of it , and incouraged me to it . lord chief justice , who broke it first to you ? who seemed that principal man ? mr. dugdale , ewers and gavan . lord chief justice , by the oath that you have taken , repeat it once more , for this is new to us. gavan , 't is so to me too , upon my soul , for upon my conscience i never heard of it before . lord chief justice , 't is a mighty confirmation of what was before discovered . mr. dugdale , but i speak to mr. gavan , and appeal to him himself . gavan , look upon me with confidence if you can . mr. justice pemberton , you must not threaten the kings witnesses . mr. dugd. mr. gavan , i desire you to inform the lords , and all here present , whether i was not under your tuition ? and whether you knew any unjust action by me ? gavan , you were never under my tuition . lord chief just . did you ever know him ? gavan . yes my lord , he used to come sometimes where i was , and so we were acquainted : and i lived within miles of tixal , my lord astons , and having acquaintance in that family , mr. ewers whom i know very well , i used to come there sometimes , but i never was in his chamber in my life . in what room of my lord astons house was this discourse ? mr. dugdale , some of it was in the little parlour , and some in mr. ewers's chamber . gavan . were any present there ? and who were they ? mr. dugdale , i have told you there was mr. ewers , and mr. lewson , and mr. peter's , and some others ; and for a further confirmation of this , that mr. gavan may know that i had a great zeal for him , and that they did love me well , i gave them an estate , or else i believe they would not have trusted me so well as they did . i gave them l. to pray for my soul , and for the carrying on of this design , and when they told me they doubted they should want money , i promised them l. more for the carrying on the work . upon which mr. gavan promised me that i should be canoniz'd for a saint . mr. just . pemb. mr. gavan himself . mr. dugdale . yes my lord. mr. belwood . what do you know of any forraign assistance ? lord ch. just . i would seign have all the world hear this ; pray what was discoursed in the parlour in my lord ashon's house , and in ewer's chamber ? mr. dugdale . it was about taking away the king's life , and introducing the popish religion . lord ch. just . by the oath you have taken , was that their discourse . mr. dugdale . yes , my lord , they were contriving how to kill the king and introduced popery . sir cr. levins . pray , have you heard any discourse of an army , or about making a massacre ? mr. dugdale . it was spoken in my hearing , and there was some discourse why they should expect forces from beyond sea , and this gentleman said ( meaning mr. gavan ) though they beyond the seas had troubles enough upon themselves , yet if we could effect it , men and money would not be wanting . i will add nothing more than the truth in what i say . l. ch. just . you deliver your testimony like a sober modest man upon my word . sir chr. levins . what say you as to a massacre ▪ mr. dugdale . my lord i have at some consulations heard speak of it , but the chief thing that they aimed at was first , there was a letter that came out of paris , and came through mr. harcouort's hands , and so came down into the country , to prove that it was the opinion of them at paris , and st. omers , to fling all this upon the presbyterians , that is , the death of the king , that if any thing of that nature should happen , they should be ready to give the first alarum , and give out , that it was those still king-killing presbytorians , that had done the fact : and so they thought they should easily have brought in the episcopal party into their company to revenge themselves of the presbyterians . lord ch. just . it was prity advise indeed , to have it first laid on the presbyterians , that they might get protestants to join and cut them off , and then their own throats should be cut . mr. dugdale , and then my lord , there was to be a massacre ; and if any did escape , that they could not be sure of were papists , they were to have an army to cut them off . mr. belwood , did he ever use any arguments to you , to prove the lawfulness of the design ? mr. dugdale , yes , my lord , he hath , and shewed me several examples for confirming me in it . lord chief justice , what , for killing the king ? mr. dugdale , for the killing of any , to introduce their own religion . mr. belwood , pray , will you name some . mr. dugdale , he endeavoured to prove it by scripture , i cannot now call the text to mind ; but it was to shew , how it was lawful and good to destroy any for the advantage of their religion , and then he shewed the example of father garnett . how several of his reliques being beyond sea , great miracles had been done by them . lord chief justice , and so now there is by st. coleman too . sir cr. levins , what letters have you received from mr. harcourt ? mr. dugdale , i have received several pacquets of letters from several persons beyond seas , which were , by his instruction , communicated by mr. grove , to mr. ewers , which letters did contain treason in them , for the introducing of popery , and killing and destroying the king. lord chief just . how can you tell that ? mr. dugdale , mr. harcourt hath given it under his own hand , and i have intercepted the letters , and read them . lord chief justice , you were acquainted with the hand ? mr. dugdal● 〈◊〉 my lord. lord chief 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read the letters then ? mr. dugdale , yes , my lord , i did . lord chief justice , how many letters have you intercepted , have you interepted twenty ? mr. dugdale , yes , my lord : mr. harcourt was the first that gave intelligence into the countrey ( as i know of ) of the death of sir edmondbury godfrey . sir cr. levins , tell when it was given and how . mr. dugd. i have made it out already upon oath , and i have witnesses to prove it . sir cr. levins , pray sir tell it now . mr. dugdale , it was directed to mr. ewers , and it was three days before he was found , for it was received on the monday , and he , as it is proved , was killed on the saturday . the words were these , this very night sir edmondbury godfrey is dispatched . and i very much rejected mr. ewers for this action , and then told him , this will overthrow the design or i will be hanged . lord chief just . what day did you receive the letter ? mr. dugdale , i have proved i received it on a monday . lord chief just . but pray what date did it bear ? mr. dugdale , that letter must come by saturday post , for it said , this night sir edmondbury godfrey is dispatched . lord chief just . he did not name any body , by whom ? mr. dugdale , no , but it said he was killed , and we knew by whom . mr. justice pemberton , and are you sure that was mr. harcourts letter ? mr. dugdale , yes , for he did usually sign his letters with two letters w. h. which stood either for harcourt or harrison . mr. belwood , did you acquaint any body with this , or did you conceal it ? mr. dugdale , i did go to an alehouse that is hard by my lords the next day , which was tuesday , and there i asked , if they did not hear some news of a knights being kill'd at london ? and i have an evidence here , if your lordship please , i will call him , who i desire may testifie the same thing . lord chief just . yes , by all means . sir cr. levins . mr. dugdale , pray , will you give us some more account of the letter that came from mr. whitebread to mr. ewers . mr. dugdale . i remember one particularly , but i cannot tell what number i have seen . sir cr. levins , did you see more than that one ? mr. dugdale , i particularly remember that . lord chief justice , what was that one particularly ? harcourt , my lord , i desire to ask him one question , when was the last time that you received any letters from me ? mr. dugdale , the last i received from you ( to my best remembrance ) was that about sir edmondbury godfrey , and it was in october . harcourt , i have not writ to that person this year and half . lord chief justice , let that man be called , that proves this business of the death of sir edmondbury , and the talk of it . mr. dugdale , mr . harcourt , you know very well , that when mr. ireland was last in the country last year , you were to send him the answers that came by letters from saint omers , and those were sent down to my lord astons , and i saw them , eight of those letters , i am sure . and i can prove it by one circumstance , two of them came relating to mr. edward astons death , from paris ; i intercepted them , and talking of it , that i could conjure , and tell of the death of mr. edward aston , before any of his friends knew of it . and mr. ireland writ a chiding letter about it , that he had not heard it sooner , and you sent down word , that you did write those letters , and ye● you say you have not written to me of a twelvemonth , or more . harcourt , this gentleman does pretend to know my hand , and 't is true , i have writ several letters for mr. ewers , and directed to him ; but as to this time he speaks of i have left off writing for divers years . he pretends to know me , and yet this gentleman before the committee of commons in parliament , which was yesterday was weeks , as well as he knew my hand , came and said i was a gentleman he did not know . he came also to entrap me at the gatehouse before those gentlemen of the committee of the house of commons ; but because he said he knew my hand so very well , and testifie , those expressions in the letter , i must say this , i never did write any such letter , nor did i ever in my life seem to approve of any mans death or murder . but the thing is this , he pretends to know my hand , and to prove it , the gentlemen desired me to write my own hand and my name , and he in the mean time did withdraw ; and three of them did write their names , & afterwards they called him in again , and asked him which was harcourts hand , & he was not able to say which it was . lord chief just . you write more hands , as well as have more names , and can counterfeit your hands as well as change your names . mr. justice pemberton , you speak before your time , and your bare word goes for nothing . lord chief justice , but mr. dugdale , where is your witness ? harcourt , i don't know any thing of this . lord chief justice , but if he calls up a witness , of whom you can have no suspicion , that can testifie that at this time mr. dugdale spoke about the death of sir edmondbury godfrey ? what will you say to that ? harcourt , i believe there is no such thing at all . ●ir cr. levins , my lord , here is mr , chetwin , pray swear him ? which was done l. c. j. mr. chetwin , do you remember that mr. dugdale came to you any time last ●ummer , and what time , and what discourse had you . mr. chetwin , my lord if your lordship please , i was most part of the summer in the country , i came into staffordshire about the th of august . my lord , there is a gentleman , one mr. sanbidge , that is a kinsman of my lord astons , that was very well acquainted with the family where i was , which was half a mile off my lords , and used to come and play with me at tables . my lord , at that very time in october he came to me , and there says he , do you hear nothing of a justice of peace in westminster , where you live , that is killed ? or to that effect . no , said i , and i had letters yesterday , and heard nothing of if . saith he , i was this morning at elds , and there a girl of the house told me , mr. dugdale had been there , and reported , that there was a justice of peace of westminster was killed ; but who he should be i never heard named , and on saturday following my letters brought it down to me . l. c. j. when was it that this was spoken ? mr. chetwin , it was tuesday morning , ( as i remember ) and that by very good circumstance , i went that day for lichfield , the saturday after the news came to me to lichfield , that sir edmundbury was found murthered . l. c. j. the jury will do well to observe this in point of time , sir edmundbury-godfrey was kill'd , as it was since proved , a saturday , but on munday he was missed , on thursday he was found , and on saturday the news was spread all over the country . now said he , the tuesday before the news came down , which must be the tuesday after the saturday he was killed , one comes from the alehouse , and asks , do you not hear of a justice of peace at westminster that is killed ? for the wench at yonder alehouse saies mr. dugdale was here this morning , and reported that such an one was killed : so that it is most notorious , as any thing in the world can be , that this thing was known to them , before any of us knew what was become of him . mr. justice pemberton . how do you further know it to be upon tuesday ? mr. cherwin , i know it to be that tuesday , my lord , very well , for we all went about such a time to my cousins mothers , to stay a week there , and after i returned back , and on tuesday , the th of october , i went to the race to lichfield , and stayed till saturday there , and came thence to london , and was here the wednesday , being the first day of the term. but i remember particularly the first information mr. dugdale gave in the country , came to my cousins hands from the mayor of stafford , and i happen'd to see him , i think it was christmas day . it came inclosed in a letter upon the apprehension of mr. dugdale i remember i met him , and he told me of it , and said he , the parliament did nor sit that day : so he went to acquaint the lord lieutenant of the county , that is , the duke of monmouth with it , who carried it to the king. but when mr. dugdale was sent for , my cousin went down , and writ me a good character of him . as soon as ever dugdale came to town , before he went to be examined by the council , as i remember , i went with some gentlemen to speak with him , and said i to him , can you say any thing about sir edmundbury godfrey's death ? said he , i remember such a letter came at such a time from father harcourt , to father ewers , wherein were these words ; this night sir edmundbury godfrey is dispatched : and said he , i remember i asked the question of ewers is not this likely to spoil all the design ? no , said he , he was a man that prosecuted persons that went to debauch'd houses , and it will be sa●● to be some of them , that did revenge themselves of him , or words to the same effec● this made me recollect the time i had the discourse with the gentlemen in the country i happened to be out of town when the murtherers of sir edmondbury godfrey were tryed , as soon as ● came to town , and found that the murtherers of sir edmondbury godfrey were cond●●ned , i was at a coffee-house , enquiring how it was managed ? some i found slighted , others did not know what to make of it . was not mr . dugdale there , said i ? no , said they . then i presume , said i , that a very material evidence was omitted . upon this i went to mr. dugdale's chamber , and there said i to him , what was the reason you were not produced as an evidence , at the tryal of sir edmonbury godfrey's , murtherers ? said i , you told such a thing , and i hope you told truth , for i don't hear that you have ever contradicted it , that you saw a letter about the monday after he was murthered . in my judgment it is very material , if you have sworn it ; if your deposition be true , or else you did ill to report it . said i , pray let me see the copy of your deposition , sworn before the council . he shew'd it me , and there was not a syllable of it that i could see , but afterwards appear'd to be there . l. c. j. that is not very material , if the thing it self be true . mr chetwin . but it s not being there , made me remember it . mr. recorder pray set up mr . dugdale again . now pray tell the contents of mr . whitebread's letter . mr. dugdale . the contents of it was , to encourage mr . ewers to go on to be careful whom he did intrust , that they should be such fellows as were desperate , hardy , courageous and stout , or to that purpose ; it was no matter whether they were gentlemen or no , so they were but couragious and desperate . mr. j. a. what were they to do ? mr. dugdale . for the killing of the king. l. c. j. was that in whitebreads letter ? mr. dugdale mr . whitebread did write those words , they were in the letter . whitebread . was that very word in the letter , for killing the king ? mr. dugdale . it was , that they should be stout and couragious persons . l. c. j. for what end ? mr. dugdale . it was for taking away the king's life . l. c. j. i ask you , recollect your self , was it by way of description of some design or plot , that those persons were to be chosen out ? or was it in downright words for killing the king ? mr. dugdale . to the best of my remembrance they were those very words . l , c , j. it was much he would write such words in a letter . mr. dugdale . i was one that was made choice of about it . mr. j. pemberton . were you to be one ? mr. dugdale . yes , i was . mr. j. pemberton . mr. gavan , you know who it was you entertained for this business , and you could trust them . l. c. j. how were these letters conveyed ? were they sent by the ordinary post ? mr. dugdale , yes , they were , and they trusted me with them , because being directed to me ▪ if they were intercepted , i should be hang'd , and they saved . mr. j. pemberton , upon these letters , what were you entertained to do , mr. dugdale . my lord , i was entertained before by my lord stafford , and mr . ewers mr. j. pemberton , what to do ? mr. dugdale , to kill the king. whitebread . pray sir , how came you to see these letters ? did you intercept them and read them your self ? mr. dugdale . i did intercept them , and open them of my own self . whitebread . pray take notice of what he says gentlemen . mr. recorder , the jury do take notice . l. c. baron , do you know any thing against mr . turner , and mr . fenwicks ? mr. dugdale , mr. ewers hath told me by word of mouth , that he was to carry on the design in worcestershire , but i saw him with mr . ewers and lewson , and others , when he was going to his brother turners then in nottinghamshire , and they did consult and agree there , in my hearing to all that i have said before . turner , what did i assent to ▪ mr. dugdale , why this design , you and mr . ewers and lewson , and others , agreed to what i said before . turner where was this ? mr. dugdale , at tixal and other places . turner . in what month . mr. dugdale . it was about two years ago , about the beginning of the business . turner , where was it ? mr. dugdale . it was at mr. ewers chamber , you know me very well . turner . i have not been in staffordshire these four years . l. c. j. why , don't you know him mr. turner ? turner . i do know i have been there a matter of three or four times in my whole life , but have not been there these four years . mr. j. windham , have you any thing to say against fenwick . mr. dugdale , i don't know that ever i saw him before . mr. recorder , but he speaks fully as to the other four. sir chr. levins , call mr. prance , and swear him . which was done sir chr : levins , come on mr. prance , what can you say to mr. fenwick or any of the others ? mr. prance , mr. harcourt , i made him an image of our lady about a year ago , and when i was receiving mony for it , ( it was to be sent into merry-land ) you told me then that there was a design of killing the king. lord ch. just . who told you ? mr. prance mr. harcourt that very time . sir. chr. levins . when was it ? mr. prance , it was when it was sent to merryland in the portugal's countrys you know it well mr. harcourt . harcourt , i know nothing of it ? sir , chr. levins . pray let him alone till we have done with him . harcourt , i desire but to know when it was . mr. prance , when i received the money for the picture , it was a year ago . sir chr. levins , what say you to mr. fenwick . mr. prance , i was in mr. ireland's chamber in russel-street , and there was ireland , fenwick , and grove , and they were talking of men that should be raised and be in readiness to carry on the catholick cause , and settle the catholick religion . i asked who should govern them ? they told me my lord bellasis , my lord powis , and my lord arundel , lord ch. just . who told you so ? mr. prance mr. fenwick . lord ch. just . how long ago ? mr. prance , about a fortnight michaelmas last . mr. grove came to me two or three days afterward to buy two or three silver spoons to give away at a christning , and then i asked him what office he should be in , he told me he could not tell ; but he told me my lord arundel , my lord bellasis , and my lord powis , had commissions for these things to give . l. c. j. this grove told you . mr. prance . yes , my lord. l. c. j. but what did fenwick tell you ? mr. prance ▪ he told me who were to govern the army , my lord bellasis , my lord powis & my lord arundel of wardour . sir ch. levins , had he any discourse with you about trade ? mr. prance . he said , i should not fear trade , i should have churchwork enough . mr. belwood . pray speak that again . mr. prance . i asked him what shall we poor tradesmen do if you have civil wars . in england ? o , said he , you need not fear having trade enough , you shall have church-work enough to make images , cha●ices , and crucifixes , and vases , and such like things . mr. belwood . if you will ask mr. prance any questions , pray do . fenwick , my lord , i am certain of this , that he never saw me at mr. ireland's chamber in that company , not did i ever speak of any such thing before him . mr. prance . mr. ireland , and he have been sitting together whole hours , and consulting about some concern or other , mischief no doubt , my lord , i went to mr. fenwick's chamber after my ghostly father was dead . l. c. j. what was his name . mr. prance , father james . and he importuned me to come to confession to him ; i told him i was not yet very well satisfied who i should go to , to be my ghostly father . fenwick , when was this mr. prance ? mr. prance , before michaelmas about a week or eight days . l. c. j. did not you know him mr. fenwick ? fenwick , who father james ? yes very well , and i know mr. prance , but not upon that account . mr. prance , and i brought you a table home for the altar at the same time . mr. j. pemberton , who was it importuned you to have him for your confessor ? mr. prance . it was mr. fenwick , and i told him when i did come to confession , i would come to him . and he injoyned me on●e or twice to say nothing of what i heard said . l. c. j. if harcourt have any questions to asked him , let him . harcourt , can you say that ever ●●pose to you about any such business ? m. prance . yes , as sure as i stand in this place , and you in that . and one thomson came with you when you paid me for four candlesticks . l. c. j. do you know mr. thompson ? harcourt , yes i do . l. c. j. had you any chandlesticks from mr. prance . harcourt , i had a great while ago . mr. prance , he paid me l. that time for them . mr. recorder call mr. bedlow . who was sworn sir chr. levins , what can you say to any the prisoners at the bar ? l. c. j. what can you say as to mr. whitebread and mr. fenwick ? mr. bedloe , my , lord , i do not question but mr. whitebread and mr. fenwick will object against me my refusing to give in evidence against them at the former tryal , but i think that there are some upon your honourable bench , that can make my apology for not giving in all my evidence aginst them then ; for it was not convenient , because it would have stopt a design i was then upon , and could not get off from , that was about mr. reading , whom i was then treating with , for mr. whitebread and mr. fenwick , as well as the lords in the tower , and he told me that he would depend upon my confidence & justice as to the lords , according as i did deal with these men ; if i brought them off , he would believe & the lords in the tower believe that i would bring them off too . so that i did make an apology them in the court , that i could not safely say all that i had to say at that time . some of the justices i believe do remember it , and in that which i did give in against them , i did not say all nor half that i could have said . whitebread , did you say any thing of that at the last tryal ? mr. bedloe , i will answer that matter to the court , but 't is the measure they always take to intrap the witnesse ; for now i am out of a country that will give me an indulgence and dispensation to speak exactly to a day or an hour ; as their st. omers witnesses have . l. c. j. but what say you now to them ? mr. bedloe , i did then say that i did see m. whitebread , and he hath been in several consultations for the carrying on of the plot ; but then i did it with a caution , that i never heard of mr. whitebread . that he was so very much concerned ; and indeed i had no reason to say so , because i heard him my self , and could not well speak from the hearsay of another . and as for mr. fenwicke , i never heard him give in any answer ; but i have seen fenwick , at the consult there . l. c. j. have they ever told you any thing concerning the killing of the king ? mr. bedloe , whitebread told coleman at mr. harcourt's chamber the manner offending the four russians to windsor about september . harcourt , i never saw him twice in all my life before . mr. belwood , do you know of any reward those russians were to have ? mr. bedloe , yes , i saw harcourt take the money out of a cabinet , i think it was fourscore or one hundred pounds , the sum i don 't well remember . harcourt paid them the money by mr. coleman's order , and gave the messenger a guiney from mr. coleman to drink his health . mr. coleman was gone a little before i came in , and so i could not know that coleman gave it , but he said so . sir chr. levins . what was pickring and grove to have ? mr. bedloe , grove was to have l. and a promise of the favor of the lords , l. was the sum appointed at mr. harcourts chamber , and doubtless in several other places , but there i heard it from mr. whitebread , and prichard , and le faire , & kaines ; and pickering was to have a number of masses , i can't tell exactly how many but they were so many , as at d. a mass , would amount to be equal to mr. grove . mr. belwood , pray , sir , what was that for ? m. bedloe , for killing the king. but pickering had been disciplined before , and received a check from the superiors , because he had been negligent , and slipt many opportunities . one time the flint of his pistol was loose , another time there was no powder in the pan , another time he had charged with all bullets , and no powder . lord chief justice , did you see harcourt deliver the guiney for the expedition of the windsor business . mr. bedloe , yes , my lord , as from coleman , to drink his health . mr. belwood , pray , was either whitebread or fenwick knowing of the agreement when it was spoken of ? mr. bedloe , i have seen fenwick at harcourts , and whitebreads chamber , when it was spoken of ; they were all of one opinion , they had decreed it . i never saw whitebread but twice at harcourts chamber , where one time was harcourt himself , at another time was pritchard and le faire , and others ; at which time sir george wakemans business was spoken of , and because he would not accept the l. l. was agreed to be given him ; and upon sir george's tryal , i shall let you know where he had the money too , but i desire to be excused at present . i shall speak it to morrow . lord chief justice , what did they consult there ? mr. bedloe , they were consulting how it should be done , and what should be done , if they did not do it . then ireland proposed , that the most certain way was to do it at his morning walks in newmarket ; fenwick was to go , and with him went grove , pickering and coniers : i heard seven or eight of them were to go . lord chief baron , what say you to turner ? mr. bedloe , of mr. turner , i know nothing but what i have heard others say . lord chief baron , what say you to gavan ? mr. bedloe , i know nothing of him , but only i have heard mr. harcourt say , he hath been a great manager of this business . lord chief justice , that is nothing to the purpose what others say . mr. bedloe , mr. harcourt is no stranger to my bringing of pacquets and portmantles over to him , from beyond the seas . harcourt , he never brought but one in all his life-time . mr. bedloe , what , did i never bring but one pacquet ? have not i brought divers , and divers portmantles ? harcourt , you never brought a portmantle in your life . mr. bedloe , i have brought divers . harcourt , you know i never saw you but twice in my life before to day , and when i met with you at the privy council . mr. bedloe , my lord , the tria●s have been so put off , that i could never get all my witnesses together , but i have or of my witnesses that are out of town , that would make this very clear . my lord , there was never a pacquet of letrers that i brought over to mr. harcourt , but did contain in it a design of the subversion of the government ; and it must be more than two pacquets that i have brought over ; for i have brought letters from watton , and letters from st. omers , and letters from bruges , and from paris , and from valledolid and sallamanca ; and all these letters contained in them the management of this plot , how far they had proceeded beyond sea , and answers how far they had proceeded in england from him and to them to and again from time to time in carrying on the design of subverting the government , and altering the religion ; wherein was given an account of the army and forces that were to be raised , both here and beyond sea ; what contributions were made or expected at home or abroad , all was lodged in mr. harcourts hands , at least wise an account of the greatest rare . and i have been sent to mr. langhorn with papers from harcout about this affair to register them ; and of that i shall give you an account upon mr. langhorns tryal . lord chief justice , well now ask him what you will. whitebread , sir i desire to ask you one question . mr. bedloe , i desire it may be asked the court. whitebread , i desire to ask him whether he was a lieutenant in flanders or no ? mr. bedloe , yes , i was . whitebread , of horse or foot ? mr. bedloe , of foot. whitebread , take notice there is no such officer of foot in all flanders . mr. bedloe , i was then in the regiment of the prince of freizland . whitebread , there are no lieutenants in all the flanders companies , only captains and alfaras . mr. bedloe . my lord , i had a commission , and i have a commission to be so , and i desire i may send for it . lord chief justice , it is no very material thing , as soon as it comes they shall see your commission . harcourt , you say you have had papers from me , and been very familiar with me ; pray how can this be , when , as i did declare before the lords in council , that was the third time i ever saw your face ? the first time he came to me , he brought letters from dunkirk five years ago ; when i opened them , i found them directed to other persons , and to them i sent them , my name being only used in the outside cover , & it seems upon that confidence that he had in me at that time , not long after he came to my chamber , & told me he had lately become a roman catholick , and by that means had lost his friends , and that he then was in want , and unless i did assi●t him it would be very hard with him ; though his father disserted him , yet he had some friends , whom he expected would do something for him , and then i will repay you . lord chief justice , when was this ? harcourt , the second time that i ever saw him in all my life , and this is four years since . then said i , what will serve your turn , he told me twenty shillings , which i lent to him , and i never saw his face afterwards till i met him at the privy council , and therefore how should a man believe a word he says ? lord chief justice , but how shall a man know that what you say is true ? mr. bedloe , i will make it appear at the tryal of the lords , that i sent to him for ten pounds , and had it ▪ i cannot now prove it without bringing some witnesses that i have behind a curtain , and i will not discover them till then , they shall not know who they are . mr. justice windham , will you ask him any questions ? mr. bedloe , my lord , i have not said the one hundreth part of what i can say honestly , and like a christian , of mr. harcourt . harcourt , you may say what you will , but you wont speak truth . mr. bedloe , mr. harcourt went with me to mr. colemans , when i carried over the consult . there was the greatest part of the design in that which i was to carry over to saint omers , and that consult did i fetch from mr. coleman , and mr. harcourt was with me , and i had thanks from mr. coleman for my fidelity in the business , and expedition in bringing and carrying the pacquets . i was recommended to my lord arundel , by mr. harcourt , and was promised by his lordship all the friendship and favor imaginable , when the times were turned . lord chief justice , why here you see , he names several places and times , wherein he met with you . harcourt , n●t one word of all this is true . mr. bedloe , i desire you to ask mr. harcourt , my lord , whether he was not in august , or september last , in company with me and le faire . harcourt , le faire , i know no le faire . mr. bedloe , le fevre then . harcourt , le fevre , i believe i did see at that time , but not since . mr. bedloe , prichard did recommend the care of me to him . lord chief just ▪ there he names another time , when you and prichard were there together . mr. bedloe , prichard was my confident , and my great friend , and told them , this is a person whose fidelity you have tried , in carrying over such and such letters , and therefore you may very well trust him , and take care of him : and so he recommended me as one that was really sit to understand the bottom of the design . and prichard did tell me before them , , that the king's death was intended as a part of it ; and he sent me again another time to mr. harcourt , but it was about no material business ; and harcourt gave a bill of exchange to carry to what citizen i don't know , but to sir geo●ge wakeman , to have l. by whose orders , as they said , your lordship shall know upon his tryal , but i saw harcourt give him the bill of exchange . mr. justice dolben , who gave the bill ? mr. bedloe , it was harcourt my lord. harcourt , who was by when this bill was given ? mr. bedloe , kaines and sir william anderson ▪ harcourt , how was this bill drawn ? mr. bedloe , it was drawn upon a citizen , and lest in your hands . harcourt , i desire he may name the citizen , and if he can , make it out ; if he do , it will appear upon the merchants books . mr. bedloe , sir george wakeman received a bill of exchange from mr. harcourt , and he was told here is a bill of exchange for l. as part of a greater sum ; to which sir george wakeman answered , that l. was a small reward for the settling of religion , and preserving of the three kingdoms from ruine , but if it were not for such a woman , he would never undertake it , but for her he would do any thing . and after he had given sir george wakeman the bill , sir george wakeman opened it , and read it , but i did not read the name that was to it . fenwick , my lord , it seems not sufficient proof that he says , he saw a bill of exchange , unless he says from whom , and to whom , that it may be proved by the books , or otherwise . lord chief justice , you say well , mr. fenwick , if so be he had been the person concerned in the bill , that he were either one that drew it , or was to receive the money then it were strange that he would not know the parties to it ; but i must tell you , where he was not one nor the other , it was a collateral matter . do people take notice of every particular bill of exchange that they see , which they are neither to pay nor receive ? fenwick , but what reason does he give your lordship or the jury to believe that there was such a bill , unless he does produce either the bill or the person that paid it ? mr. bedloe , i did only see the bill out of mr. harcourts hand , but it was read there only by sir george wakeman . lord chief justice , is it a pin matter whether there were such a bill or no , or whether he had mentioned it or no ? fenwick , but seeing he hath mentioned it , i say there is nothing of proof of it , but only his bare word . l. chief . just . yes , there is his oath . sir cr. levins , and i desire the jury to take notice how unreasonable a thing it is that you ask . you would have mr. bedloe produce the bill of exchange that was given to sir george wakeman to receive money . mr. bedloe , i have only one word more . sir george wakeman received the bill of exchange from mr. harcourt , read it himself , folded it up , and went and received the money ; and that the court will be pleased to see my commission , for now i have is here . which was read by my lord chief justice north , and several others . sir cr. levins , we have only this one matter to trouble your lordship & the jury with . you perceive by the evidence that hath been given that the main matter begins at the consult of the th . of april , when the consult was , now to fortifie this evidence , we are now to produce a letter that was written from one petre at st. omers , jesuit , wherein is mention made that he was to give notice , mr . whitebread had appointed a general meeting just at that time in london , at which they were to consult of very great matters ; and they were to be very private in their coming to , and appearing about the town . and this letter was taken amongst mr. harcourts papers , and to prove it we call sir thomas doleman . who was sworn . sir cr. levins , pray what can you say where this letter was found ? sir thomas doleman , it was found amongst mr. harcourts papers , in a bag of his papers that was committed to my care to search . lord chief just . can you tell what day you found it ? sir th. doleman , it was a matter of six or seven days after mr. oates had given his information of this plot to the council . harcourt , what paper is it ? mr. justice atkins , hear it first . l. c. j. it is a letter found amongst your papers . harcourt , who is it from ? lord chief just . it is from one mr. petre , do you know such a one ? clerk of crown , it is subscribed e. p. harcourt , yes , my lord , i do , i will deny nothing of the truth . then the letter was read in haec verba , honoured dear sir , i have but time to convey these following particulars to you , first i am to give you notice , that it hath seemed fitting to our master consult prov. &c. to fix the th of april next stilo veteri , for the meeting at london of our congregation ; on which day all those that have a suffrage , are to be present there , that they may be ready to give a beginning to the same on the th , which is the next day after st. george's day : you are warned to have jus● suffragii , and therefore if your occasions should not permit your to be present , you are to signifie as much , to the end , others , in their ranks , be ordered to supply your absence . every one is minded also , not to hasten to london long before the time appointed , nor to appear much about the town till the meeting be over , lest occasion should be given to suspect the design . finally , secresy , as to the time and place , is much recommended to all those that receive summons , as it will appear of its own nature necessary . tertio pro domino solono disco . benefact prov. luniensis . i am straitned for time , that i can only assure you , i shall be much glad of obliging you any ways , sir , your servant edward petre. l. c. j. come now mr. harcourt , will you expound this letter to me that speaks of this meeting and privacy ? harcourt , y●s my lord , tho it was not my letter yet i will tell you what the meaning of it was . that letter was writ to one , who had jus suffragii , a right to come and vote in our congregation , which , according to the constitution and orders of our society , is within the compass of three years , where they meet about the particular affairs of the society . l. c. j. what was it about ? harcourt . it was about choosing an officer , choosing a procurator to send to rome ; that was the chief point , and secresy was a thing that was recommended to every one , as it was fit it should be , we living in a country where every ones eye was upon us , and we were an eye-sore to them , we ought to be cautious of meeting in such numbers as might give an offence , and this was the only thing indeed . l. c. j. look you , mr , harcourt , you say well , but we are not to be altogether disciple ▪ of yours so as to have no sense of our own , and to be impos'd upon so weakly as this . here is the thing , says the letter , i would not have you come too soon to london , nor appear too much in publick far fear of discovering a design , which requires secresie in its own nature . what , was that your design of choosing a procurator ? tell me but one thing that can bear the name of a design , which must have that secresie in it , that people must not appear much about town , and that in its own nature require , such a thing , whitebread , my lord , the thing it self is evident what was the design . l. c. j. come , mr. whitebread , you will do it better . whitebread , it is evident it was a design to choose an officer . l. c. j. why , good mr . whitebread , do any write after that manner ? were you to write to any one , or ask the jury , if they were to choose some collector for the receit of some charitable money that should be employed for the relief of protestants in france : do you think any man would say , do not appear much in london before hand , nor come to soon , for fear of discovering the design , which in its own nature requires secresie : will this indure the name of a design ? whitebread , first , it i● a very hard thing to bring so many mens lives in danger meerly upon the interpretation of a word , which may as properly signifie one thing as an other . is it not proper for me to say i have a design to dine with such a man to morrow , or he l●ke ? l. c. j. 't is true now , but h●ar●en — whitebre●d ▪ but that was the thing designed , to have a congregation for the choosing of an officer , and it was , i think , very properly said , and that it should be kept secret was as prudential a thing as possibly could be . was it not proper here , because our profession was not publickly permitted in this kingdom ; and therefore that was the reason why secresy was injoyned ? and this upon my salvation was all that ever was in ended or thought . l. c. j. north , this now is the interpretation you put upon the letter , but we understand by the witnesses what was done at that meeting . l. c j ●o●k you , mr . whitebread , this letter without question hath been well studied by you a● ; ●nd it requires it mightily . whitebread it needs none l. c. j. this is not the natural exposition of the words of the letter that you give , but a forced one ; for first , there is a difference between saying i doe design to dine to day , though it be a usual matter , but it is another thing , when i call a thing by the name of a design accompanyed with a requiring of secresy in its own nature , & when i give advice that they must not appear in town too soon , nor too much about the town , for fear of discovering the design , which in its own nature requires secresy : must all this amount but to the choosing of an officer ? you 'l never make one papist of all this company , if you make no better work of it . whitebread . my lord , i humbly desire your lordship would not strain a word which may be well enough said , whether it be properly said or no. l. c. j. 't is not one word alone , but 't is the whole sense . whitebread . 't is evident there was just cause of secresy , because of our profession . l. c. j. mr. whitebread , 't is not one word that is relyed upon , for the business is pursued . 't is not said pray meet at such a time , but be careful you do not discover the design ; if it had been only said so , it would have been a strain to have made this construction of a single word , to make this that design , but as it is here we make no such construction ; it had been hard indeed to put that meaning upon it as you do even then , for t is seldom so used , for no man writes after that manner ; but when it follows in a continued sense of so many lines , be sure you meet on the th . of april , the day after st. georges day , but come not too soon to town , nor appear to much about the town , for fear of discovering the design , which you know in its own nature does require secresy : can we make any such interpretation of it ? if you have no better arguments than these , you must have people lose their understandings , or have a very blind obedience to yours , or it will never down . ay , come mr . gaven , how do you say is the meaning of this ? gaven , for my part i 'le assure your lordship i was not there , but this is known to all the christian world , that there is such a meeting in spain , france , germany &c. that wherever the jesuits are , once in three years they have a meeting among themselves for the setling of their affairs . indeed the words have given your lordship an occasion to raise a difficulty what the word design should mean , which i do give this answer to your lordships difficulty is , that the word design here should not be made use of to send one poor jesuit to rome . my lord do but mark the end of the congregation , and you will say to us that we might well use that word , because the word may import some great business of concernments now what business of greater concernment for poor religious men to meet together about , than those things that may promote their better state in another world , and the regulation of what is amiss in their order , my lord , upon my conscience and salvation this was the end of the congregation , to meet and see what is amiss in the order , who do their duties , and who not , who are irregular in their offices , and whose office is vacant and to be supplied . lord ch , just . but must no body come to town , nor appear too much about the town for this ? gaven . therefore my lord , as to the word [ design ] it concerning the whole spiritual good of the whole body of the english jesuits , it might well be used for the consultation of that body , about all their good , temporal and spiritual , which was all concerned in it . l. c. j. these are a many words , but to no purpose . gaven now , my lord , for the second thing that you object , your lordship remembers very well , that the continuation of the sense in so many lines made the thing the more suspitious , that more was intended by it than so : now to this i shall be able to answer , if there can be given a particular reason why we should ad that word of secresy to the other of design , having answered to the one part , we now give an answer to the other , and so to the whole . now my lord , because of the time , the parliament was then sitting , and that we might not offend the king and all civil magistrates ( whom we honour from our hearts and souls ) that word was used that it might be kept secret . l. c. j. it was not out of love to the parliament , it was the nature of the thing required it , nor was it out of any fear you had of them . i did never find , though you are as good at it as ever any i met with ( for i never met with a priest that had much more understanding ) but really you do not answer me . you are so far from scholars , and arguing like such , that you do not maintain the matter with common and rational understanding , but only heap up so many vain words ( like a rope of sand put together ) which hath no natural coherence , for you cannot possibley make this reasonable , that the people should have so much caution , that they should have not come too long to town beforehand . gaven , not to be taken notice of . l. c. j. not to appear in town when they come . gaven , not to be taken notice of . l. c. j. i say so , you cannot tell why all these cautions should be used meerly for choosing an officer . gaven . my lord , our lives depended upon it , if we were taken , being such men as we are . l. c. j. you can make nothing of it , and you will find it an hard task to answer it ; for if half the evidence that hath been given were not given , yet this letter of your own , which cannot be denyed , is an unanswerable proof . it does monstrously confirm mr. oats's testimony to be undeniable as to the meeting at the consult ; for he , four or five dayes before hand , comes and tells the council the very day which five or six days after this letter makes good ▪ which is found in harcourts custody . then there was a consulation upon the day , the very day that mr. oats says , and what he calls a consultation , your own letter says is a design . gaven . it was a design of a congregation . l. c. j. what sense is there in that , will any man in england , or did any man in england ever say , take heed of discovering our design of going to church or choosing a collector ? gaven . there is reason for the one and reason for the other too . l. c. j. i would appeal to your selves and all here present , what the natural import of such a letter is , whether it does not carry a matter more than ordinary ; whether its natural intendment doth not look at that ? and the next thing is this , does any man write plainer then this , when they write of a thing that is of such a nature ? is not the danger too great to hazard that fact , which they call the nature of the thing , to intrust it in a letter ? is it not vain to put that in a letter in words at length , which they , to whom it is writ , know what the thing means ? and if it should be further known than they would have it , the thing could never be done ? and if you consider the person that write● , a jesuit or a priest , are priests ever plain ? and will you expect plainness here , when , in things of ten thousand times less moment , they don't write plainer ? is it not known , you have not a proselyte , that you do not keep under obligations as close as your confession are ? have you not taken here as it is sworn , a sacrament of secresie ? is there a woman that you convert but in the dark ? or a papist made out of a preist's hole ? are not all your deeds under ground ? and do you work with any light , but that of a dark lanthorn ? this is plain , unless you give a better answer to this letter , the letter will hang about your necks . l. c. j. north. mr. oates will tell you what the design was . mr. j. elis he can tell you what it was . l. c. j , the letter speaks it self . dr , oates mr gavan and they now tell your lordship what this consult was for , but they deny'd this consult at first , when there was but one man to justifie it . i justfied it before mr ; fen. who denied it at the council-board , though now they pawn their salvation upon the justification of it . fenw , i never denied that there . l. c. j. come , have they any thing to say for themselves ? mr. bedlow , my lord , whereas , as mr. gavan sayes , that in obedience to the king and parliament they would have their consultations secret , and that they always desired to conceal themselves then ; the time of sessions of parliament was the only time that i and others have been employed to fetch over more jesuites than at any other particular time . dr. oates , and there are more of them then in the court of requests , and in the lobies , bare-faced , and threatning the protestants , than at any other time . m. bedloe , we used to fetch them against the parliament always ; they were in less danger then than at other times . l , c. j. you could give a very good interpration of the letter , i supposed , that mr. dugdale speaks of , that came from whitebread , that he should be sure to entertaine such as were hardy , stout fellows : i suppose you can make all this to signifie nothing more than a design for a game at cudgels . sir cr levins , if your lordship please , we must desire that one letter more may be read . your lordship hath been told of commissions for the raising of an army , here is a touch of them mentioned in this letter found amongst mr. harcourt's letters too . l. c. j. look you , mr. harcourt , you had best attend , here is another letter found amongst your papers , concerning some commissions . you look ill to your letters ; you are to blame indeed , mr. harcourt . sir cr. levins , pray , sir thomas doleman , look upon that paper , and tell us how you came by it . sir thomas doleman , this letter in my hand i found amongst mr. harcourt's papers , about some two days after i found that other that was read before . having heard mr. oates give in his information to the council , that there were several commissions given out to several persons , and finding some doubtful clauses and expressions in the letter , i did present this letter to the council , and made a mark upon it , enquire what is ment by the word patents . lord chief just . pray let it be read , because we shall desire a little more of their interpretation . cl. of cr. it is signed christopher anderton ' hilton , feburary the th , / . dr. oates , hilton , that is , rome . lord chief . just . mr. harcourt , you understand , that by hilton is ment rome ▪ harcourt , yes , my lord , i do . l. c. j. well , then go on , and read it . cl ▪ of cr worthy sir , i know not from whence it proceeds , but i perceive that both your letters and mine have bad fortune by the way ; for my corrospondents with you complain , they hear not from me , whereas i write constantly intire pacquets ; and since the bills i received from your self for sr. william goring , and for mr. ireland , from mr. shelly , i have not had one letter but that i received this week , which in part made recompence for the former , for it brought me three of yours , and one of mr. ireland 's for which i render you many humble thanks , and acknowledge the fifteen pounds from my lord castlemain , though mr. ireland made no mention of it in his . we are all here very glad of the promotion of mr. tho. harcourt . when i writ that the patents were sent , although i guess for whom they were , yet i knew not for certain , because our patrons do not use to discover things or resolutions till they know they have effect . and therefore in these kind of matters i dare not be too hasty , left some might say , a fools bolt is soon shot . lord chief just . what is the meaning of these patents ? fenwick , this gentleman will tell you , my lord. whitebread , my lord , they were the patent for my being provincial . lord chief just . how many patents had you ? whitebread . but one , my lord. lord chief just . is that patents ? whitebread , literae patentes . lord chief just . is it patent or patents ? clerk of cr. patents . lord chief just . read those words again , clerk of ca. we are all here very glad at the promotion of mr. tho. harcourt , when i writ that the patents were sent , although i guess for whom they were , yet i knew not for certain , because our patrons do not to discover things or resolutions , till they know they have effect . lord chief just . now you have not interpreted well this neither . sir cr. levins . it is said , i knew not for certain who ( they ) were for ; but to make it clear , i would desire mr. whitebread to answer me one question , how long is it , sir , since you were made provincial ? whitebread , the th of january was twelve-month . sir cr. levins . and this was dated the th of february , which was after your commission . whitbread . that may be , and they not know till then . lord ch ▪ just . and so you expound those latter words of the letter , that the resolution of making you provincial was not discovered till the effect was known . whitebread , because it is not known , whether the person that is nominated might not be excepted against : and it is literae patentes . lord chief just . but here is but one person to answer the word patents , and there should be more than one man. whiteb. every patent is called literae patentes , though it be but for one person . mr. recorder , they were in great doubt that you would refuse the place , i warrant . dr. oats . he is bound in pain of damnation not to disobey his superiours , if they chuse him to a place , he must take it upon him . whitebread , it is not the first , second , or hundredth time that one hath been appointed by the superiour to a place , and hath refused it ; and if i had known the hundredth part of what i do now , of the trouble of the place , i would never have accepted it . mr. recorder . ay , if you had known the difficulty of this design , you would never have ingaged in it , especially if you had known what is come to pass . whitebread , no , sir i never had a hand in any such thing in all my life : this is coram deo that i now speak , and as i am to appear before the great tribunal at the day of judgment , i know nothing of all this matter . dr. oats , my lord , these patents , of which this letter makes mention , a great many of them came down in the months of april and may before . lord chief just . methinks he interprets them plainer than you do . lord chief baron , now what have you to say every one of you for your selves , make your defence ? lord chief just . mr. whitebread , do you begin . dr. oates , while the prisoners evidence is calling in , i desire that my witnesses may be sworn . mr. just . pemberton , mr. oats , be quiet , there is no need of it yet , till they have made their defence . lord chief just . but send for them that they may be ready . whitebread , my lord , that which i have to say for my self is this , i thank god , my lord , i am not afraid of death ; but i should be very loth to die unjustly , and i hope your lordship will consider , that every mans blood is dear to him , and is concerned for his own life to preserve it , he ought to be allowed liberty and freedom to preserve himself as much as he can . life is a thing not to be thrown away , but charily to be lookt after , and that there is such a thing as taking away mens lives by perjury as well as by a knife or pistol , is without contradiction . now whoever comes against a man for his life , i suppose he is to be looked upon not only by the prisoner , but also by the jury and the court , that he ought to be probus testis , and a man fit to be admitted to be a witness . now i have something to offer , that mr. oates is not any such person . your lordship was pleased to say , that he was the person who proved the design mentioned in the letter that was read . now i hope your lordship will give me leave ( and i hope i may do it without offence to this court ) to say that he is perjured in what he says . lord chief just . you mean that his evidence is false , you may do it if you can . whitebread , he says he came over hither , and was here present the th of april with me , and that i did appoint him to do such and such things , and discovered the whole business to him . now i desire your lordship would be pleased to consider whether this were probable , and whether i had not been a very much mistaken man all this while to trust a man with such a business , and whether i ought not rather to be sent to bedlam than newgate for trusting such a man as he , whom by his own confession i never saw till that time . 't is not rational that a man would trust him ; and then , my lord , that this business should be discovered to him , a man that depended wholly upon us to live , and had no livelihood but what he had from us , who maintained him at st. omers long as well as the best man in the house . lord chief just . did you do it ? whitebread , yes , my lord , i did . lord chief just . you should consider how in that you answer your self . whitebread . i , that is , when i came to the office , and i and my predecessors . when i was superiour i found him not a fit man for that purpose and design he pretended to . he was very zealous to be entertained amongst us , and therefore i desired him to absent himself . lord chief just . why was he not fit to be employed among you ? whitebread . for several reasons of our own : first of all it was doubtful , whether he was a good catholick ; for he had oftentimes maintained several propositions that were not soundly catholick : and then secondly , he led a very idle life , and he was not found a man we were obliged to accept of , and therefore we desired him to retire . and to that purpose we furnished him , gave him a good suit of cloaths , and a perriwig , and four pounds in his purse ▪ and he promised me to pay me again when he had sold his library , which he said he had a very good one in london , but he never did . but that i should be so strangely overseen and mad , as at the first sight of such a man a● this , to trust him with such a great intrigue as this was , and to write in such a plain strange manner , and send by post to mr. dugdale , as your lordship did and justly might wonder at , had been a madness . it was much that any man would write so plain of such a thing . but then my lord , the chief thing is this , that i hope your lordship will give us leave to produce our witnesses to prove , that he was not from saint omers from the tenth of december till the d of june following , and never lay out of the house but one night from december till june . lord chief just . name your witnesses . whitebread , i desire first mr. hilsly may be called . lord chief just . call him ; but i 'll tell you what is strange , you say it is wonderful that you should trust a man you had so little opinion of his abilities or fidelity , but i wonder that you should maintain him after that . whitebread , no , my lord , we did not . lord chief just . you say you did . whitebread , no my lord , he pretends he was here in england sent over by us , but we will prove he was not . lord chief just . but you maintained him abroad ? whitebread , that was before . lord chief just . is it so great a wonder that you should take into your confidence and consultation that man , whom for a considerable time before you had maintained abroad ? whitebread , but my lord , i suppose there is some difference between charitable acts to a man in want and a scholar , and trusting him with such an intrigue as this . fenw , pray my lord , be pleased to take notice , that this mans evidence all along is , that he saw such and such letters from such and such persons . they have no evidence but just that they saw such and such letters , and how is it possible that a man who was turned away from saint omers for his misdemenours , that i should shew all my letters ? now my lord , i have had a thousand letters taken from me , not any of these letters had any thing of treason in them , or soliciting of persons to come into england , let the letters be produced , and then your lordship will see what is in them , all the evidence that is given comes but to this there is but saying & swearing i defie them all to give one probable reason to satisfie any reasonable uninteressed man ▪ judgment how this could be . lord chief baron , there can be no reason given why you should sign an instrument to kill the king. lo c. j. you say there is nothing but saying & swearing , but you do not consider what you say in that matter . all the evidence and all the testimony in all tryals is by swearing . a man come ; and swears that he saw such a bond sealed , or heard such words spoken , this is saying and swearing , but it is that proof that we go by , and by which all mens lives and fortunes are to be determined . but then , say you , 't is wonderful , that since they say they saw such and such letters , they should not produce them ; why ? they did not belong to them : ay , but then say you , 't is strange they should not find one letter in all those numerous papers that were taken that contains any trayterous matter ; but i say , 't is forty times more a wonder that one should be taken , than for all the rest to be undiscovered . i suppose mr. harcourt amongst those papers that he let be surprised did not think that letter that hath been read to have been of such consequence , nor the sence of it to be so bad . fenwick , i dreamt no more of my apprehension when i was taken , than the day of my death , it was so unexpected , nor what i should be accused of : i had no fear of it , no thought of it , so that i took nothing out of the way . they took five or six thousand pound bonds and bills , besides letters ; methinks something of the effects of those letters might be produced , and some of the design appear . for god's sake , where are the commissions signed , and monies paid ? lord chief just . they talk of a patent . mr. whitebread construes it , that it is his commission ; if so , does it lie in oates or bedlow's power to shew that commission ? ( this is just like that of the bill of exchange ) neither does it in any of the letters . fenwick , here is mr. hilsly , my lord. whiteb. my lord , we pray , we may have the favour that they may be sworn . lord chief just . north. by law they cannot . l. c. j. n. in no capital case against the king can the witnesses for the prisoner be sworn , but i will say this to the jury , that they are not sworn , is , because they cannot , but the jury is to take great heed of what they say , and to be governed by it , according to the credibility of the person and of the matter . gavan , my lord , if you please to give me leave ; my lord coke in his institutes sayes expresly , that there is no positive law against it , his words are , there is not so much as scintilla juris against it . l. c. j. no. we know that the constant usage and practice is so , and you cannot produce any man , that in any capital case had his witnesses sworn against the king. l. c. j. my lord coke says otherwise , that the evidence should be so plain that nothing could be answered to it ; and therefore no evidence should be sworn against the king. gavan , my lord , those are the words of my lord coo. l. c. j. you argue against the known practice of all ages . l , c. j. no. there never was any man in a capital cause sworn against the king. the common law is the custome of the kingdom , and we are bound to know it , and must all be governed by it . whitebread , in mr . ireland's tryal , pag , . he says , he came over with sir john warner , father williams , and mr . hilsley from st. omers , mr. j. pem. nay , you must not resort to the printed tryals for evidence . fenwick , if we can prove him perjured at any time , i hope we may . l. c. j. suppose upon the taking of those printed tryals they mistake , shall mr oat therefore be thought guilty of perjury ? if you have any thing to ask of your witnesses which you can apply to the evidence given now , you may . fenw. mr. oates , did not you your self own then you came over with mr . hil●sh ? dr. oates , ask me any question about what i have given to day , and if the bench think it rea●●nable 〈…〉 answer it . fen. my lord , he 〈…〉 m that he came over with these persons , in which he is for swrrn . l. c. j. he is not convicted of perjury , and therefore that must not be urged . fen , my lord , we will prove by witnesses that were at the tryal , that he did affirm so : and i do desire now to know ●f you m●●● , whether ever you came over with mr helsly . dr. oates , that which i said then , and that which i say now , is , because you should not puzzle your selves ) that one mr. hilsly did come over with us when we did . hilsly , my lord , i did not . l c , j , how can you tell ? hilsly . i left him at st omers . l. c. j , what say you mr. oates ? dr. oates , 't is true , mr . hisly did leave me at st. omers , because he went out a sunday morning , and i came out of the munday morning , but i overtook him at calis . hilsly . my lord , that is false , and i have a great many here that can prove it . l. c. j. what religion are you of ? hilsly , i am only to serve his majesty . l. c. j. are you not to serve god too ? hilsly , i am first to serve god , and then his majesty . mr. j. pemberton . are you a catholick ? l. c. j. are you a roman catholick ? hilsly . yes , my lord , i am . mr. j. pemberton . be not ashamed of your religion , do not deny that , your provincial here can give you a dispensation for what you say . hilsly , i hope a roman catholick may be a lawfull witness ? l. c. j. yes , i deny it not . this is that you say , you left him at st. omers ; you must call more witnesses to back him : master oates sayes 't is true you left him at st. omers , but he overtook you at calis . dr. oates . this gentleman lost his money at calis , and father williams did relieve him by my means . lord chief just . what say you to that ? hilsly . why my lord , yes , it is true i did lose my money there , but it is nothing to the purpose , for i will affirm , i was never in the ship with him in all my life . dr. oates . i desire he may be asked , whether he be in the degree of a priest or not ? l. c. j. that would be a hard question to put to him to make him accuse himself . it would bring him into danger of treason . mr. j. pemberton . he is a boy very fit to make a jesuit of . l. c. j. how could he then come to know this ? hilsly . i confess 't is true , that mr. oates did never come over with me . and i have witnesses to prove that they saw him there next day at st. omers , and two or three several weeks after . sir christopher levins . mr. oates hath another circumstance to prove it by . dr. oates . he went away from us by the way , and did not come up with us to london . hilsly , i know how he understood ●his : there was a gentleman that the witnesses will prove he was very familiar with the d . of may , that told him . l. c. j. is that gentleman here ? hilsly : here is one here to prove it . l. c. j. and did he tell him how you lost your mony ? hilsly , yes , my lord , i suppose so . l. c. j. i speak seriously , i do not understand how he could come by these things . parry , my lord , i can testifie if it were lawful for us o wear , and prove that he was at saint omers that day , when he says he came over . l. c. j. what is your name ? parry , my name is william parry . l. c. j. what country-man are you ? parry , i am a flintshire man. l. c. j. when was he at st. omers ? parry , he was there that th . day , that day he says he came over . l. c. j. was he there all day : parry , he did not stir thence all the day . l. c. j. how can you tell that ? parry , i din'd with him ; that day he went into the infirmary , he did not go out of the colledg , he was sick . fenwick mr. parry , how long did mr. oates stay there , at st. omers ? parry he staid till after the th of june , i am sure ; for on the th of june i know he was present by a very good circumstance , he was at an action of ours , a latine play. dr. oates . my lord , as to the going into the infirmary at that time , i deny it . my lord , ( if your lordship please ) i will shew that this gentleman is not only a votary of the jesuits , but hath been one of the sodality several years . and they have dispensations , and are bound by an implicite obedience to say what the jesuits bid them , who are their superiours . l. c. j. what say you to the th . of june , the time he says you were there at the seeing of the play ? dr. oates , my lord , as to that twentieth of june , i was there , and there was an action at that time , for i was then returned thither from london . parry , i deny all that , for he never stirr'd out of the colledge . l. c. j. youngman , in what quality were you there ? parry . i was a student there , a poet. l. c. j. how can you say he did not stir thence all the while ? parry . i know by a particular thing ; i din'd and supp'd with him there , but when he was in the infirmary , but the particular passage was this . he did there fall out with a gentleman that was in the infirmary too . l. c. j. when was that ? parry . it w●s ●t th● time that he says he came away . l. c. j. when w●●● he 〈◊〉 ? parry t●e ●h of april , old style , and staid a matter of three or four days . dr. oates . will you be pleased to take notice of this ? he says that hilsley left me at st. omers when he cam● 〈◊〉 , and that the next day he dined with me , and that i went into th● i●fi●ni●● , ●h●● , he says , was the th of april , old style . now we will run to a g●● ad humin●m , 〈◊〉 this ●●re the th of april , old style , how did mr. williams me●t with mr. hilsly i● cali● , ●●d r●store him his money , when the th old stile mr. williams was at the co●sul● 〈◊〉 london ? l , c. j. when was it that you say mr. hilsley was at st. omers ? fenwick answer my lords question . parry he went away the th of april , , as i remember , lord chief just . what , old stile ? parry , yes , old stile acccording to the reckoning there . d. oates . but , my lord , upon the oath that i have taken ; if he mean new stile , all that this gentleman hath said about this is false , except that i was there the th . of june . lord chief just . was it new stile or old stile that you say mr. hilsly went away ? mr. recorder . he does not know new stile from old stile , parry . he went the th . that is the old stile beyond sea , whitebread , i do desire he may answer , whether he does know that mr. oates was ever out of the house from the time he came in december till june , but one night . parry . no , he never was out but one night at watton . lord chief justice , from what time to what time ? parry it was but two days and one night . lord chief just . what time was it that he was there first ? parry , he came thither in december . lord chief justice , and he did stay there all the while ? parry . he did not stir from the colledge till the end of june ; and never went out but a day or two , as i know of . l. c. j. not as you know of ; but might not he go , and you not know of it . parry . i am sure of it ? l. c. j how can you tell ? parry . not a scholar goes from thence to england , but the whole colledge rings of it . gaven . and then , my lord , when they go out they go in secular cloaths , that none but must know when any person leaves the colledge , dr. oates . my lord , in such cases , though t is true in a general sense , yet it is but a general rule , and every general rule admits of its exceptions , and my case was a particular exception . i put on the habit of the house as soon as i did return from london , and did not appear as if i had gone out of the house , nor did i know that it was known that i had been out ; for i did never appear in a secular habit . whitebread , what his cloaths were , does not change the place he sate in ; he being ancienter than the boys , had a priviledge to sit in a particular place , which must be known to all the house at dinner and supper . he was visible every day there . l. c. j. i do believe it ; and therefore he says , not only that he was reported to be there , but that he saw him there almost every day . then another witness for the prisoner stood up . l. c. j. what say you , young lad ? doddington , i say , my lord — l. c. j. what is your name ? doddington , doddington . dr oates , pray , my lord , ask him if he went by that name at st. omers . mr. j. pemberton . what was your name at st. omers ? doddington my name was hollis there . l. c , j. how old are you ? doddington eighteen years and an half . l. c. j. what can you say ? where was m● , oates ? doddington , he never went out of the colledge , but one night to watton , till the end of june . l. c. j. when came he into the colledge ? doddington , a fortnight before christmas , i did not mind the day , he says himse●● it was the th of december . lord chief just was he there till june ? doddington . yes , he never went out till june but one night . lord chief just . where was that ? at watton ? doddington . yes , my lord. lord chief just . how do you know that ? doddington . i only know that by what all the house said . lord chief just . did you see him every day , except that day ? doddington , i cannot say i saw him every day , because he was in the infirmary once , and he was there that very day after mr. hilsly went away . lord chief just . what day was it that mr. hilsly went away ? doddington , the th of april new stile ; and that day he fell sick , and went into the infirmary the next . lord chief just . what day of the week was that ? doddington , it was of a sunday . lord chief just . and when did you see mr. oates ? doddington , on monday or tuesday , i am not certain . lord chief just . how often did you see him from the th of april to june ? did you see him every other day ? doddington , yes , that i am sure of , for every other day , i am not certain every day . lord chief just . are you positive ? jury , we desire to know what time of the year he was in the infirmary . doddington , i discoursed with him in the infirmary two or three days after mr. hilsly went away . lord chief just . but what time of the year was it ? doddington , he was there first in winter , and then afterwards he was in at this time , which was in april . lord chief just . have you any more to say ? doddington . i can say more , that i saw mr. oates the second of may with one blood or burnaby , and i am sure i saw him in his company . lord chief just . where did you see him ? doddington , i saw him walking in the garden with mr. burnaby . mr. just , pemberton , when did you come into england ? doddington , i came over the th of april . lord chief just . how long have you been in england ? doddington , about two months , mr. just . pemberton , why did you come over , were you sent for over upon this oc●asion ? doddington , no , i was not . mr. just . pemberton , why did you come over ? doddington . i came over partly upon the kings proclamation . lord chief just . what proclamation was that ? l. c. just . north , that those that were in the seminaries should come over again . doddington . and partly because i had not my health . fenwick , mr. gifford , what do you know about mr. oates's coming from st. omers ? l. c. j. when came you from st. omers ? gifford , i came over about a month ago . lord chief just . upon what occasion ? gifford , to justifie that mr. oats was there all the while that he says he was here . l. c. j. you speak like an honest man , there is no hurt in that . fenwick , we did send for him over . l. c. j. when did you see mr. oates there ? gifford . i saw him the first of may was twelve-month with us , and the . of april . l. c. j. and how long after that ? gifford , i was in his company for a whole week after , i am sure . l. c. j. you say the first of may he was there , how can you tell ? gifford , the first of may there came one mr. burnaby to the colledg , and he fell into acquaintance with him , and i saw him with him . he was with us an whole week at least every day after dinner . we have an hour always after dinner to recreate in , and this gentleman was there with us and mr. burnaby ; for mr. oates seeing us in the garden at first , put himself into our company , and kept with us . l. c. j. was he not in the infirmary ? gifford , not at that time , my lord. l. c. j. when was he in the infirmary ? gifford , the day after hilsly went away . l. c. j. do you remember that ? gifford , yes , i do . l.c. just . north. how long did he stay in the infirmary ? parry , about three days . lord chief just . and for how long together did you see him after mr. hilsly's departure ? gifford , i can swear that i saw him at least till june , if i can believe my own eyes . lord chief just . your religion does not allow you to believe your own eyes . gifford , i can in my conscience say , i believe i did see him every day or every other day . lord chief just . which do you say , did you see him every other day , or every day ? gifford , if i say i saw him every other day ; that is sufficient . lord chief just . do you know that he went out of the colledge at any time ? gifford , yes , he went for one night . lord chief just . whither ? gifford , to a place called watton . l. c. just . what did he go thither for ? gifford , for his relaxation . lord chief just . how came you to take such particular notice of him that he was there ? gifford , it is impossible but we should see him , and take notice of him , for we dine all together in one room , and we could not but take notice of him , for he was at a distinct table by himself . lord chief just . how many are there that dine in one room ? gifford , one hundred and fifty . l. c. j. how could you know him when there were so many ? gifford , he was at a distinct table by himself , between the boys and the religious . then stood up another , one palmer . l. c. j. well , what do you ask him ? fenwick . the same question as the rest . l. c. j. when came you from st omers ? palmer . i came two or three months ago . lord chief justice , why did you come over ? palmer . i had no mind to stay any longer . l. c. j. where does your father live ? palmer , by windsor . l. c. j. when did you see master oates ? palmer . i saw him the first day of may new stile , and i know it for a particular reason there were strangers dined at the colledge that day , whereupon mr. oates , and several other boys played at nine pins , in the afternoon i saw them . l. c. j. why , you do not count a●l boys there , do you ? palmer , all but those that are the religious . l. c. j. why , you did not count mr. oates a boy , did you ? palmer , he was none of the religious : he sate indeed at a table by himself , but he went to school with the boys , and we called all the scholars boys . lord chief just . how often did you see him ? palmer . i 'le tell your lordship , i saw him the first of may , for that reason ; the second of may i saw him with master burnaby , a man that he had never seen in all his life before , and we wondred that he had so much impudence to insinuate himself into his company . lord chief just . what is he ? palmer , he is a gentleman that is now in flanders . lord chief just . how do you know that master oates had no acquaintance with him before ? palmer , because i know he was in england , and came over while master oates was actually at st. omers . lord chief just . but he might be of his acquaintance in england . palmer . i heard master burnaby say , he never saw master oates in all his life before . the second of may i saw him at the action , the fifth of may master killingbeck went away , and i saw master oates actually there then , and one master poole went away , and i remember oates was there for a particular reason ; he was a kind of a weak man , something soft , not over-wise , and we were asking him why he would go away by himself , and talking of it afterwards , sayes master oates , i will not say positively those were the words , but that was the sence , he does not go alone , for there goes esquire poole and esquire fool together . the eleventh day we had an action , a play also whereupon there was a particular place for the musicians to play in , where no one else was to sit ; master oates would sit there , and thereupon there was one master watson quarrell'd with him , and they had like to have fought . lord chief just . this was the th of may ? palmer , yes , my lord , new stile , and the other was the th . l. c. j. but you saw him betwixt that time ? palmer , yes , my lord , i did . lord chief just . and so for how long ? palmer , i saw him at four a clock in a morning reading father worsleys controversies , and so for several days together . fenwick , did he go away before june ? palmer , no , he did never stir till june . sir cr. levins . did not you go sometime by the name of sanders or h●ll ? palmer , no , only by the name of thomas palmer . sir cr. levins , heark you sir , who maintained you at st , omers ? do not you know one mr. caryl ? palmer , no my fa●her maintained me . lord chief just . who is your father ? palmer , sir philip palmer . l. c. j. what country gentleman is he ? palmer , buckinghamshire . mr. just . pemberton , he is cup bearer to the king. then stood up one master cox. l. c. j. how long have you been from st. omers ? cox , two months . l. c. j. what country man are you ? cox , i was born at brussels to serve you . l. c. j. do you know master oates ? cox , yes , i did very well . lord chief just . where ? cox , at saint omers . lord chief just . when ? cox , i left st. omers seven months ago , and i came away in the month of november after master oates . my lord , i can prove that he was there in april and may. i went from st. omers to brussels , and from brussels i came straight to london . lord chief just . but when did you see master oate there ? cox. i can prove i saw him at st. omers when he says he was in england , and that by this circumstance . master pool who was my musick master was sick there , and mr. oates was often with him . lord chief justice , were you there all the time he was there ? cox , yes , i was , till he went away . lord chief just . when did he go away ? cox , master oates went away in the month of july . lord chief just . are you sure of that ? cox , yes , my lord , i am . lord chief just . not in june ? cox , no , my lord , july . lord chief just . why he differs from all the rest ? cox , my lord , i can prove he was at st. omers when he says he was in england . lord chief j. why what month did he go away ? cox , my lord , i can prove that mr. oates was never absent from st. omers , till he went away for good and all . lord chief just . when was that ? cox , he went after the consult of the jesuits , which he says was in england in april . lord chief just . come , come , answer me plainly if you can in what month mr. oates left st. omers ? cox , i say mr. oates was never absent from st. omers till the consult of the jesuit , was over , which he hath confessed himself to be at . lord chief just . when was that ? cox , why it was after may , 't is no matter what the month was whether june or july . ( at which the people laughed . ) cox. what do you laught at sirs ? why , suppose i mistake the month it is no matter . lord chief j. look you we are now upon a question of time , and you cannot tell that a man i● there at a certain time , unless you can prove the certain time when he came away ? cox , i can prove that he was there till after the consult of the jesuits , ( and then the people laughed again ) l. c. j ay , i ●elieve you there , 't is enough for you , but you have done a very great prejudice to those persons that you came for , for you come to prove the conclusion , but do not take notice of what mediums you are to use . say you , if i can but prove that he was there till after the consult of the jesuits , that is the thing in question , and i need no more , but this is serving a turn only : pray can you tell me what month he came to st. omers ? cox , yes , he came thither in the month of december . l. c. j. and when did he go away again ? cox , he was never absent from st. omers out of the view of the scholars , except one night that he went to watton , and one day when he was in the infirmary , but even at that time he was seen by some of the scholars . l. c. j. yet you cannot tell the time that he went away ? cox , he was never absent all the while . mr. justice windham . do you know when the consult of the jesuites was ? upon what day ? cox , he sayes he went away with mr. hilsley , but he did not , i can prove the contrary . l. c. j. no , no , he says he followed him and overtook him at calis . cox. that is false , and i can prove it by this circumstance : one mr. conquest was to go for england that day , and he came into the refectory , and told us a story of this mr. conquests being unwilling to rise in the morning to go for england . l , c. j. when did he tell that story ? cox. that day that he was to go for england , l. c. j. how long was that after mr. hilsley went away ? cox. the day after . gaven . when was the time that mr. conquest went for england ? cox. in the month of may as we count . l. c. j. what time in the month of may ? cox. it was the fifth : and he says that mr. pool and mr. nevill were in england with him , but i can testifie that they were not absent , for one of them was my musick-master . lord chief just . was he there all may ? cox. yes , that i can testifie upon my oath . l. c. j. and all june ? cox. yes , my lord , but if i prove he was not in may in england it is sufficient . l. c. j. upon my word you deserve a sharp penance for running into that fault or times : you have done them no kindness in this matter . gaven . if your lordship will take advantage of every circumstance , young men may not remember the particular day of his going away . l. c. j. but you hear how he delivers his evidence , 't is as if he had been instructed , you must come and prove that oates was not in england in april and may , and that will do our business , for he tells you it is sufficient , but we will have it proved to satisfie us . cox. but why should i say more than i know ? l. c. j. you mean , more than you are instructed about . i only ask you one short question , do you know when mr. oates left st omers ? name the moneth . gaven . if you don't remember the time , say so ? cox my lord , i cannot remember it . l. c j. then call another . ( who stood up . ) dr. oates . my lord , i desire they may be examined apart . l. c. j. you need not trouble your self about that . what is your name ? billing . my name is thomas billing . l. c. j. when came you from s. omers ? billing i came moneths ago i think my lord. l. c. j. do you know mr. oates ? billing , yes , my lord , very well . l. c. j. when did you see him at st. omers ? billing , my lord , i saw him when he came the same day , or the day after . l. c. j. when was that ? billing , in december my lord , the th . of december . l. c. j. and he staid there how long ? billing , till the latter end of june . l. c. j. was he never absent ? billing . i can very well remember that he went to watton in the christmas . i was then in he infirmary my self , and he and his companion came in there to see us , and said he had been at watton . l. c. j. but he was twice in the infirmary , was he not ? billing . yes , my lord. l. c. j. when was the second time ? billing , the second time was in april , i went in the week before christmas , on st. thomas of canterbury's day i came out again . lord ch. just . but you say the second time was in april ? billing . yes . lord ch. just . how long was he there then ? billing . truly i was not with him then , but i think or days . lord chief just . were you in the colledge then ? billing . yes my lord i was . lord ch. just . did you see him in the colledge from time to time ? billing yes , i did . lord ch. just . how long ? billing . for all the time that he staid . lord ch. just . how long was that ? billing . that was from december till the latter end of june . lord ch. just . was he there all may ? billing . yes , my lord. he says he was days in england , but he could not be so , for he entred himself into the sodality the th of march , and not long after his admission , he was put to read every sunday morning at a clock . and after that he began once to read he never was absent from that time , till the time he went away . lord ch. just . why did he read when he was sick ? billing . he was not sick upon the sunday . lord ch. just . you say he was sick in april ? billing . yes my lord. lord ch. just . but was he not sick of a sunday in april ? billing . he was only a little indisposed , and frequented the infirmary in the day time for a matter of or dayes . lord ch. just . did he read at the time he was sick in the infirmary ? billing . he was not sick an whole week . lord ch just . did it reach to a sunday ? billing , no , my lord that i remember . lord ch. j. how long did he continue there ? billing til towards the latter end of june . lord ch. just . did you see him once in or days ? billing . yes my lord i did constantly . and upon the second of may , ●●ve● particularly remember , looking out into the garden , i saw mr. blunt walking in the garden , and mr. oates with him : and observing him to be very intimately familiar with him , i a●ked some that were with me , does , this sampson , for he went by that name in the colledge , says i , does sampson know dick blunt ? no said they , and we wondered at his confidence having no greater acquaintance , i saw him that day walking in the garden with that blunt. l. c. j. that was the second of may ? billing , yes , my lord. l. c. j , and he was constantly in this gentlemans company that day ? billing . yes , and moreover the same day this sampson ▪ was walking with one john rushton in the garden , and seeing me walk alone , thomas , says he have you never a companion ? no sampson said i , well said he prithe come to us . so i was with him walking a little while , and then this blunt and one henry howard were playing one with another , throwing stones at one anothers shins . at which he was displeased , and said ●f they would not be quiet he would go tell the rector . howard was hasty and spoke angerly to him , and said if he would not be quiet he would beat him : but mr. oates persisting , and daring of him , says h● , what do you dare me ? and come up to him and throws up mr. oates his heels , with that mr . oates lookt very fre●fully upon him and withdrew himself into the infirmary , as we thought to speak to the rector . and by these particulars , and such as these i remember to have seen him every day , one day with another , or every other day at st. omers till he went away which was in june . then stood up another , one townely . l , c. j. come mr . townely , do you know mr . oates ? tow. yes , my lord : l. c. j. when came you from st omers ? townely i came a week before easter . lord ch. just . when saw you this same mr. oates at st. omers ? townley . i saw him in june . lord ch. just . when else ? townley . in may. lord ch. just . when else ? townley . in april . lord ch. just . was he there in all april , all may , and all june ? townley . no , not all june . he went away as i take it about the th of june ? lord ch. just . pray how often did you see him ? did you see him every day ? townley . i conversed with him every day . he was partly a scholar and partly a father : and sat at a table by himself . he went to school as a scholar ; 't is true indeed , he did not learn as the rest of the boys did , but he went to school at the boys did , and was at a table from the fathers as the boys were , but apart and alone . lord ch. just . but how often did you see him ? was it every other day ? townley . yes , i believe i did . lord ch. just . what for all april and all may ? townley . yes . lord. ch. just . how came you to take such particular notice of it that you can say , you saw him every other day ? town●ley . if i constantly dine with one , or if he be at a single table alone , he cannot be absent , but i must take notice of it : and he was neither as a father nor as a scholar but betwixt both , and therefore the more to be taken notice of . lord ch just . this then you say , he siting by himself and being distinct from all ●he others , you might more easily observe his absence than any others . this is that you say ? townley . yes , my lord. lord ch. just . you say well . call another . then stood up one fall. lord ch. just . when came you from st. omers ? fall. about two months agoe . lord ch. just . when did you see mr. oates ? fall. i saw him when i was in my syntax , and now i am in poetry . l. c. j. what moneth did you see him in ? fall. when he came first as i rember it was at christmas . l. c. j. christmas last ? fall. no , it was christmas was twelth month , christmas . l. c. j. how long did you see him there ? fall , i saw him there from that time till june , only when he was at watton . l. c. j , was he never sick ? fall. i saw him in the infirmary my self . l. c. j. how can you tell when a man is sick ? fall , i do not pretend to do that , but he was in the infirmary as a sick man. l. c. j. how came you to take particular notice of it ? fall , i took no particular notice , but i have recollected my memory . l. c. j. upon what occasion ? fall , upon this occasion . l. c. j. how often did you see him ? fall , i saw him every day . l. c. j. how long have you been in the convent ? fall , my lord i have been there two years and an half . ( then stood up john hall. ) l. c. j when came you from st. omers ? hall , in july my lord. l. c. j how long have you been there ? hall seven years and upwards . l. c. j. how long is it since you came from thence ? hall in july in the year . l , c. j. and did you see m● . oates there then ? hall , no , my lord , l. c.j , when did you see him there then . hall , i saw him there in april , may , & june l. c.j. what all june ? hall no , my lord. l. c. j. how long in june ? hall , he went away about the twenty third of june . l. c , j. how came you to take such particular notice mr. oates was there all this while ? hall , i was a servant there . l. c. j. in what way ? hall , a resectorian , a butler . l. c. j , did you keep books of what meat and drink they had ? hall , no , i laid their table , drew their beer and laid the bread. l. c. j. and did you serve mr. oates with bread and beer every day ? hall , yes my lord , most dayes . l. c. j. did you serve the infirmary ? hall , no , my lord. l. c. j. but you say you served him every day ? hall. yes , my lord , the most of the time he remained there , i acknowledge he was in the infirmary . l. c. j. how long ? hall. four or five days , or thereabouts . l. c. j. was he in the colledge in april ? hall , yes my lord , all along . l. c. j. and all may ? hall , yes my lord , i saw him all may , i laid his table neer the door at a particular place where he always sate . jury , my lord , we desire to know what employment he is of now ? l. c. j. hall , what made you come into england ? hall , my lord , i had not my health there . l. c j. how long had you lived there ? hall seven years and upwards . l. c. j and when began you to be sick ? hall , i had not my health at christmas in december , . l. c. j. what employment have you here , for you had a good place there ? hall , i live at home with my father and my friends . l. c. j. what is your father ? where lives h● ? hall , he is a gentleman , he lives in radnorshire . l. c. j. when came you to london ? hall i came to england in july , . l. c. j. but you say you father is in radnorshire , when came you here to lnndon ? hall , i have been here about a moneth , i was summoned up as a witness . then one dallison , was called who did not appear , and one manshall appearing , but speaking french and no english , and an interpreter not being ready , he was for the present by the consent of the prisoners set aside . and then stood up one cook. l. c j. when came you from st. omers ? cooke , in january last l. c. j. and where have you been ever since ? cooke , here in town my lord. l. c. j. does your father live here in town ? cooke , no , my lord. l. c. j. do your friends live here ? cooke , no , my lord. l. c. j. you came over upon this occasion did you ? cook● yes , my lord. l. c. j. when did you see mr. oates there ? cooke , i saw him in last june , l : c j : and was he there in july ? cooke , no , my lord , l : c : j : what time did he go away ? cooke , the d , the eve of the feast of st : iohn baptist . l : c : j : how do you know ? cooke , i made him some clothes : l : c : j : are you a taylor ? cooke , yes : l : c : j : how often did you see him ? cooke , every day : l : c : j. how came he to keep you company ? cooke , i could not chuse but see him , sometimes i saw him times a day . l. c : j. where was he in april ? cooke , he was there all april . l.c. j. he might be absent one day or so , and you see him not , cooke , he used to come twice a week to my shop for things . l. c. j. was he there all may ? cooke , yes . l. c. j. you say you saw him every other day ? cooke yes , my lord. sir chr. levins why sir there are scholars there , how can you tell he was there so well ? mr. j. pemberton : can you tell every one that was there all that time ? cooke , no , i can't tell every one that was there , but he was particular enough . lord chief just . did you live in town as a taylor or in the colledge ? cook. in the colledge . mr. belwood , was mr. oates at watton any part of the time ? cooke , yes , he was . mr. belwood , what day ? what month ? cooke , i cannot justly say the day , but it was in april , lord ch●ef just . how long was he absent ? cooke , only one night as it shall please you . mr. just . pemberton , heark you , how came you to take notice that he was at watton one night ? cooke , it was talked of among all the scholars . lord chief just . how can you remember what was said a year ago of one man ? cooke , it was reported all over the house . gaven , in one place of his narrative , he says , he came over with sir john warner , and sir thomas preston . lord chief just . north , that is nothing to the purpose . if you can contradict him in any thing that hath been sworn here , do . gaven . if we can prove him a perjured man at any time we do our business . l. c. j. you should have proved him a perjur'd man before . how can we prove one cause in another ? and then too he had been provided to make his defence , can he come prepared to make good every thing that he hath said in his life ? dr. oates , can i come to make good my evidence against all i have done in my life ? lord chief just . look you , if so be he hath forsworn himself in any former tryal , if that would appear you have all the reason to make use of it , but you have not taken the right way , you should have indicted him and tryed him for perjury in the former trial , and then he could not have been heard at all in this . whitebread , we were all prisoners close shut up . lord chief justice , we know you have a party strong enough , and willing enough to convict him of perjury if they could ; but look you gentlemen here is the thing , if you can give such evidence as will satisfie the jury that he was absent all april and all may you have said a great thing . his evidence will be quite contradicted . whitebread , he says he came over with sir thomas preston and sir john warner and others . lord chief just . he says nothing of it now . dr. oates , may it please you my lord , i will answer it if you please . lord chief just . they desire to know who came over with you when you came over in april . dr. oates , i will tell you , and to convince the court , that in neither of the trials i did contradict my self , i say , i did name some persons at one time that i did not name at another . there came over with me the rector of liege , sir john warner , father williams , father marish , father warner , sir tho. preston and others . lord chief just . this is dea●ing plainly with you . then stood up one bartlett . lord chief just . what countrey-man are you ? bartlett , i am a dutch man. lord chief just . can you speak english ? bartlett , yes a little . lord chief just . when came you from saint omers ? bartlett , i came from saint omers the of may in the year . new stile . gaven , my lord , this man is come over to testifie , that oates is perjured in a circumstance about sir john warner . lord chief just . he is to contradict mr. oates testimony , for he says he came over with sir john warner , and you say sir john did not come at that time . gaven , yes . lord chief just . well when did sir john warner come over from saint omers ? bartlett , whither ? lord chief just . into england : bartlett , sir john warner ▪ hath not been in england all may , and all the month of april . l. c. j. where was he ? bartlett , he was at watton , i did see him there . l. c. j. were you there all that time ? bartlett , yes , i was . lord ch. just . north , were you there all may ? bartlet , yes , i was : l , c , j. when did you come over into england last ? bartlett , the th of may l. c. j. how long have you been in england ? bartlett , about or weeks . lord chief just . what is your name ? bartlett , my name is bartlett . lord chief just . but you say that you came over the th of may. bartlett ; i did not come over till the latter end of june . lord chief just . just now you said , you came over the th of may. bartlett , no , my lord , i thought you had asked the question when mr. oates came over . mr. just . pemberton , he says so , as your lordship says before . lord chief just . how do you know when mr. oates came over ? bartlett , i heard so beyond sea. then one carlier a foreigner appearing , and not being able to speak english , mr. tisser the under-sheriff of middlesex was sworn truly to interpret his testimony . l. c. j. mr tisser , you are only to tell us what he says . ask him when he came into england last . mr. tisser , he says , my lord , it was between seven and eight weeks ago . lord chief just . ask him , if he knows where sir john warner was last summer was a year ago . mr. tisser , he says , my lord , he was in watton for two years last past . l. c. j ask him where he was all april was twelvemonth , and all may : mr. tisser , my lord , he says , that the last sunday in april , sir john warner was at his house at watton . lord chief just . and where was he all may ? mr. tisser , in the same house . lord chief just . ask him how he does know . mr. tisser , my lord , he saith , that he was a gardener there . l. c. j. it seems he says to the same effect as the last witness did . call another . who did stand up . l c. j. what is this mans name ? gaven , his name is charles verron . l. c. j. does he speak any english ? gaven , no , he does not . l. c. just . then , mr. tisser , ask him if he knows sir john warner , and where he was april and may was twelvemonth . lr. tisser , he says , my lord , that he was at watton all april and may , and continued there till september . l. c. j. pray ask this man what quality he is of there . mr. tisser . he goes along with a vessel between saint omers and watton , and that he knows it to be true . lord chief . j. ask him , if he did see him every day . mr. tisser , he says , generally , my lord , dayly . lord chief just . ask him what religion he is of . mr. tisser , he says he is of the roman religion . then stood up one baillee . lord chief just . ask him , mr. tisser , if he knows sir john warner ; and where he was all april and may was twelvemonth . mr. tisser , he says the same , that he was at watton all april and may. lord chief just . ask him how he can tell . mr. tisser , he says he is a servant of the house . lord chief just . and did he see him there dayly ? mr. tisser , my lord , he says that he gave him directions to make a bastyment , that he is a mason , and that he did give him directions dayly about it , and that he saw him every day . lord chief just , look you , gentlemen of the jury , he speaks to the same purpose that the three witnesses before spoke to ; he says he is a mason , and that he built a bastyment there by direction from sir john warner , and that sir john warner came dayly to give directions about it . then stood up john joseph . l. c. j. do you know sir thomas preston ? joseph , yes , my lord. l. c. j. when did you see him ? joseph , in the months of april , may and june : l. c. j. where was he then ? joseph , he was at the english house at liege . lord chief just . did you see him there ? how often did you see him there ? joseph , i saw him there every day almost . lord chief just . what occasion had you to see him ? what were you there ? joseph , i was porter of the gate . lord chief just . and did you see him all the month of april ? joseph , every day , most commonly . lord chief just . did you see him once in a day or two ? joseph , i did see him in april , may and june . lord chief just . that you might do ; but did you see him very day ? joseph , every day most commonly , i cannot absolutely say , but two or three days in a week . sir cr. levins , pray do you know of any time that sir tho. preston was absent from leige . joseph , he was in the time of the vacancy . sir cr. levins , was he not absent in april or may ? joseph , no , my lord. lord chief just . when are the vacancies ? joseph , in august , my lord. then stood up one peter carpenteer . lord chief just . do you know sir th● . preston ? carpenteer , yes , my lord , very well . lord chief just , where did you know him ? carpenteer , i knew him at leige . lord chief just . how often did you see him there in april and may. carpenteer , every day i saw him there all april and may. lord chief just . what office had you there ? carpenteer , i was caterer . gaven , my lord , we have no more witnesses as to this point . but , my lord , my case is different from the others : mr. oates says he did not see me in the congregation , but he says , he afterwards saw my hand to the consult . now , my lord , i have a witness to prove that i was at that time at wolverhampton in staffordshire . no body hath a right to sit in the congregation till he become a professed jesuit , which at that time i was not . lord chief just . he does not charge you to have been there , though he says he saw your hand to it . gaven . my lord , i was then in the countrey . lord chief just . north , that will do you some , and yet but little service , if you can prove your self at wolverhampton at that time : but call your witnesses . l. c. j. mr. gaven , he says , he saw a letter of yours giving an account how affairs stood in staffordshire and shropshire , and that afterwards in july , and before that gentleman mr. ashby went to the bath , he heard you discourse of the same matter : and though he cannot charge his memory to say he saw you the th of april , yet , says he , i did see his hand to the consult ; and being asked how he knew your hand , he says he knew it by your writing a bill of exchange in his presence . gaven . i could not sign the consult at london , and not be at london . lord chief j. north. i believe in such a business you care not how many hands you have ; but we will not prevent you calling your witnesses . you are upon your life , don't spend the time , call them quickly . lord chief just . what do you call them to prove ? gaven . to prove that i was at wolverhampton the th and th of april . lord chief just , pray hear what he says himself . you say , sir , you saw his hand to the consult that was in april ; pray when was it that you saw it ? dr. oates . it was in june or july . lord chief just . north. you might set your hand afterwards to it , if you were not there then . lord chief just . you say you were then in staffordshire , and might not you set your hand afterwards when you came to town ? i will tell you , mr. gaven , in april they met , and had such a resolution ; you were then in staffordshire , might not you come to town in july following , and set your hand to what was agreed in april before ? and you cannot contradict him , but by shewing that all june and july you were not here : for if you prove your self never so much to have been at wolverhampton in april , that will not serve the turn . you seem to make a very great defence of this : all that mr. oates says , is , that the th of april he was present where there was a consult had about the death of the king , and divers persons set their hands to the resolve . mr. gaven afterwards was in town , and then , says he i saw his hand set to the consult : i will not charge my memory to say he was present but i will tell you why i believe it was his hand , because i saw him draw a bill of exchange , and that was just like the same hand . gaven . aye but , my lord , i was not here in april . lord chief just . but this proves , in effect , that you set your hand to the thing afterwards . and now if you should prove your self never so plainly not to have been there in april , you do not come to the thing : it is still a non liquet whether you were here in july or no. and mr. oates does not positively charge you as to april . well , call your witnesses , and prove what you will. catherine winford was called , and appeared . gaven . i desire you would be pleased to ask her , where i was the th of july . winford . my lord , i am very sure he was a sojourner at our house the most part of the summer , in june and july both : in july the th he went away from my house , and took another lodging more convenient for that which he had to do . lord chief just . where ? in what town was this ? winford . at wolverhampton in staffordshire . lord ch. just . was he never away from you all that time ? winford . no , and then he went to another lodging in the town . lord ch. just . do you say that he sojourned with you all june & july till the th ? winford . he sojourned with me longer ; but i only name those months , because they are onely in question . l. c. j. where did he go when he went from you ? winford . he took another lodging in the town . l. c. j. and did you see him then ? winford . i saw him then every day , or every other day . l. c. j. are you a roman catholick ? winford . yes , my lord , i am so . l. c. j. call another . gaven . call mary poole . ( who stood up . ) l. c. j. do you know mr. gaven ? poole . yes , my lord. l. c , j. how long have you know him ? poole . this six or seven years . l. c. j. pray do you know where he was this time twelvemonth ? poole . he was at mrs. winfords house at wolverhampton . l. c. j , how do you know ? poole , i was a servant there in the house . lord ch. j. and where was he in april ? poole . he was at my mistresses house . l. c. j. and where was he in may ? poole . my lord , i believe he was there . l. c. j. and why do you believe he was there ? poole , because i do not remember his going forth , till the latter end of july , and he was there in june too . l. c , j. you answer readily as to june and july , why did you stick at the month of may , more than the other months ? for you know , when i asked you where he was in april , then you said he was at home ; why do you doubt whether he was there in may or no ? pray tell us why it is not as certain to you that he was not there in may as that he was there in june ; why do you doubt more of it ? poole . i do not doubt but that he was there . lord c. j. but why did you not answer then as readily to the one as to the other ? poole . my lord , any one may mistake . l. c. j. this you were not prepared for , and it was a question you did not come ready to answer : are you a roman-catholick ? poole . yes , my lord. ( here the people laugh'd . ) l. c. j look you , you must know there is no other use to be made of it , but onely to shew , that protestants are so averse to popery in england , that they will not endure a roman-catholick in england . but they are good evidence , and competent witnesses , i must tell you that , and no man must deny it : for though you deny heaven to us , yet we will not deny heaven to you , nor witnesses ; though you say heriticks will be damn'd , yet we hope they will never , while they do not follow your practises . ( at which the people gave a great shout . ) l. c. j. you must pardon the peoples shouting ; for you have turned their hearts so , that there is no living for a papist in england , i will maintain it . ( and then the people shouted again . ) you shall have all the iustice that can be , and all the favour the law will allow . gaven . if there be but a place for us in heaven , i am contented . my lord , i desire you will be pleased to ask this mrs. k●●th , winford , whether she does not remember that i came from my lord aston's the monday before . l. c. j. mrs. winford , what say you ? do you remember any passages about the time he left your house ? winford . my lord , i did not know directly and positively what i should come to answer , and therefore i cannot recollect my self . l. c. j. do you know that he went to any gentlemans house some time before he left your house ? winford . yes , my lord , he went often abroad . l. c. j. to whose ? winford . to my lord astons . l. c. j. how long before ? winford . i cannot tell . l. c. j. how long did he stay at my lord's ? did he ever stay five or six days ? winford ▪ i cannot tell . l. c. j. my meaning is this in plain english , to ask you plainly , and you ought in conscience to speak the truth as much as if you were upon your oath : for you are in the presence of god , who will judge you as severely for a falshood in this case , as in the other . i would ask you whether he could not possibly be absent , and make a step to london , and you be never the wiser ? windford . my lord , i am as confident as i can be of any thing in the world , of the contrary . l. c. j. might not he be in london the latter end of june or july , and you not know it , when he pretended to go to my lord aston's ? winford . i do not know , but i am very confident he did not . l , c. j. but was he absent long enough to have done it ? can you charge your memory with that ? winford . it was possible it might be so , but i am confident it was not , because i used to order my maid to get him his linnen ready upon any journey , & he had none now . dr. oates . my lord , he took a chamber to go into the exercise ; now , my lord , he taking a chamber on purpose for this very thing , he might pretend that , and come to london the while , and they not know it , because he was shut up ; for none are to come at them . winford . my lord , i know not any such thing of him ; but this is a rule amongst them , that when they are so shut up , if there be a necessary occasion to come to them about any particular business , as sending them linnen or so , they have admittance to them . l. c. j. were you employ'd upon any such extraordinary matter ? winford . my lord , i used to go and see him , and carry him his linnen . l. c. j. and can you charge your memory with that ? winford . yes ; my lord i can . l. c. j. when , the latter end of july ? winford . yes , my lord , i often went to see him then , when he was gone from my house . l. c. j. where was he for all the former part of july till those eight days ? winford . he was at my own house . l. c. j. when went he first into this recluse way ? winford . he went from my house the th . of july . l. c. j. was he not close when he was with you ? winford . no , my lord. l. c. j. and the last eight dayes you had access to him . winford . yes , i had . l. c. j. i ask you , are these people shut up at a certain time , and there is no coming to them upon any occasion ? winford . my lord , most of those days i did see him , indeed he was shut up ; but upon any kind of business , as carrying of the linnen , and sometimes a pair of gloves , and other things of his own , or sometimes to speak with him about business , were admitted to him . l. c. j. i see your confinements are not so great as you would make them to be or he would have us think . i ask you once more , whether you can say that during the months of june and july , it was not possible for him to make a step to london , and you never the wiser ? winford i am very confident he did not ; he was not absent long enough to do it . sir cr. levins . you said just now , you could not say positively but he might be absent for five or six days . winford . i do not believe he did : for he had no linnen with him , which he used to have , when he went to london . l. c. j. but supposing he had no linnen , might he not go to london and you not know of it ? winford . i can't tell whether he was absent or no long enough to do it . gaven . pray , my lord , let me speak ; as i live , an innocent man will be lost else . he says expresly i was in town in july ; and gives this argument for it , that mr. ashby was in town , and he met me with him . l. c. j. no , no , mr. oates was not so positive : he says it was either in june or july ; but he rather thinks it was july . but mistris , might not he in the beginning of july be absent so long as a man might go to london and return again , in the first three weeks of july , i mean ? winford ▪ my lord , i cannot charge my memory , because i did not know what i should be asked , and so could not recollect my self . i onely say i am confident of it , because he always told me when he went such a journey , that i might make provision of linnen to sit him for it . l. c. j. your reasons are weak , because he used to tell you that you might get him linnen : men upon extraordinary occasions do extraordinary things ; so that you are not to govern your self by what he used to do in his acquainting you , or you in providing his linnen . this was no ordinary errand , and therefore i don't ask you whether he had linnen from you or no ; but you are onely to charge your self with remembring whether he could not be absent long enough out of your sight to have been such a journey . gaven . pray , my lord , give me fair play . he does charge it expresly , and is precise to a day : he saith i was here in july after that ashby was come to town , and before that he went out of town : and he says that ashby came to town in the middle of july , and went out of town about the latter end of july or beginning of august ▪ now , my lord , i say this , he saying that ashby , came to town the middle of july , and staid there a fortnight , and then went to the bath , & that i came to town while that he was there ; if i prove that i was in staffordshire from the th . or th of july to the end of the month , then i shall clear my self evidently ; for he does in effect charge me to be here some time in that fortnights time , and i prove that all the latter part of july i was in the country . l. c. j. he does not charge it to a day , but he says it was about a fortnight . dr. oates . mr. ashby came to town in the beginning or middle of july ; i rather think it was the middle , but i dare not upon my oath be positive as to the time ; and in that time mr. ashby staid in town , mr . gaven came to london : for i remember he said he would go and see father ashby , who was then at wild-house . l. c. j. prove where you were now all july . call your witneses . gaven , i prove that i was at wolverhampton from the th to the end of the month . l. c. j. call your witnesses to prove where you were the beginning , that can speak expressly to it . gaven : my lord , i have them not here . l. c. j , why then would you make us lose all this time ? gaven , my lord , i will tell you ; hear the words of an ingenuous man being as i was innocent , not knowing what they intended to charge me with , i in my mind run over all that i could imagine i had at any time done that they could lay hold on . if i had been guilty of any thing , my own conscience would have told me of it ; and i should have provided to have given some answer to it : but being innocent , i was to ransack my memory to sum up all the passages of my life , where i had been , what i had said , what i had done , that would give them any occasion of accusing me . and because i did imagine they might think i was here the th of april , i brought witnesses for that ; and because i did imagine that they might speak of some consults in april , i sent up for such witnesses at my own charge , as could testifie where i was then . l. c : j. but you have not one protestant that testifies for you . gavau , and now , my lord i humbly cast my self upon the honour and justice of this honourable and just court ; to which i submit my self with all my heart and soul , haveing used all the remedies i can . i have cleared my self as to the main day , the th of april , whereon all the pretended plot lies : and i 'le bring witnesses that shall swear i was not in london in august ; and if my eternal salvation lay upon it , i could averr i was not in london : and i wish i may be made an example of justice before all the world ( in the sight of god i speak it ) if i be not the most innocent person in the world , and , my lord , seeing there is only his oath for it , and my denial , i have onely one demand : i don't know whether it be not an extravagant one or no ; if it be , i don't desire to have it granted . l. c. j. what is that demand ? gaven , you know that in the beginning of the church ( this learned and just court must needs know that ) that for one thousand years together , it was a custom , and grew to a constant law , for the tryal of persons accused of any capital offence , where there was onely the accusers oath and the accused's denial , for the prisoner to put himself upon the tryal of ordeal , to evidence his own innocencie . l. c. j. north , we have no such law now . l. c. j. you are very fanciful , mr. gaven you believe that your cunning in asking such a thing , will take much with the auditory ; but this is onely an artificial varnish : you may do this with hopes of haveing it take with those that are roman catholicks , who are so superstitious as to believe innocency upon such desires ; but we have a plain way of understanding here in england , and that helpt very much by the protestant religion : so that there is scarce any artifice big enough to impose upon us . you ask a thing that sounds much of a pretence to innocencie , and that it would be a mighty suffering if you should miscarry , because you ask that you know you can't have . our eyes and our understandings are lest us , though you do not leave their understannings to your proselytes ; but you are mistaken , if you think to impose that upon us that you do upon them : and you do so impose upon them . but i 'll tell you , there is scarce any man with us that can be a papist : for you cannot deceive and gull us , as you have done all that you have perverted to your way . gaven , is it any harm , my lord , to ask whether i might not be so tried ? l. c. j. north , look you here , mr. gaven , the time is far spent ; if you have any thing to say , we will hear you , if you have any witnesses , call them , and we will examine them : but if not , the other prisoners must be admitted to make their defence as well as you . gaven . all these six can prove that i was at wolverhampton the last week in july . then another witness stood up for him . gaven , where was i in july ? witness , i cannot speak to all july ; but , my lord i can declare , that mr. gaven was in staffordshire the last week of july every day , i am confident . l. c. j. where was the first three weeks in july ? witness , i cannot speak as to that ; but in the last week in july he came to an apartment of an house that i lived in . l. c. j. cook you , mr. gaven , you see what this evidence is ; she says that you were in staffordshire the last week in july , for you had an apartment in the house she lived in . call another . ( who stood up . ) l. c. j. where was mr . gaven in july last ? witness , my lord , i saw him my self at the latter end of july for very many days , for he was in a room of the house that i lived in , i am sure , most of the last week . l. c. j. where was he the last fortnight ? witness , i am confident i saw him all the last fortnight , but i cannot be positive l. c. j. call another . ( who stood up . ) l. c. j. where was mr . gaven in july ? . witness . my lord , i lived in the same town with him , and i do not remember that he was out all july , but the last week he was in our house . lord chief just . well , call another . ( who stood up . ) lord chief just . where was mr. gaven in july last ? witness , he was in july last , the last week , in a part of our house . lord chief just . so then he came home from london the th or th of july . well mr. gaven have you any more witnesses to any other purpose ? for here are enough to this . gaven , no , my lord. lord chief just . mr. whitebread , have you any witnesses to call ? wh , my lord , i have only this , and i desire to be heard in this point , to prove that mr. oats was mistaken in his evidence that he gave at the last trial against mr. ireland . l c. j look you , i must break in upon you ; you have been told so often , all of you have been told it , and yet you are upon the former trials again . you are now upon your trial for your life , if you could have disproved any thing that he said at a former trial , you should have taken a legal way and convicted him of perjury ; but now to charge him with a printed paper is not fair . you must speak to what he says now . whitebread . he says the same now . but all that i say is this , if he be not honest , he can be witness in no case . i suppose if any one can prove him not probus testis , his testimony is not to be received in any case . lord chief just . but how will you prove that ? come on , i 'le teach you a little 〈…〉 ●ill come to contradict a witness , you ought to do it in a matter which is the present debate here ; for if you would convict him of any thing that he said in irelands trial , we must try irelands cause over again . but if you will say any thing against what he says now , do . whitebread , that which i would alledg is this , if he be convicted of perjury in one case , he is not to be believed in another . lord chief just . you say right , if he be convicted . whitebread , he is not only then an incompetent witness , for he cannot be said to be probus testis , but he is improbus . now this is that i can prove . mr. just . pemberton , nay , you must shew it by a record . lord chief just . you cannot have so little understanding , you that have been , and were to be so great a man among them , had been provincial , and was to have been somewhat else . i have told you already , that to prove him to be a man that hath no faith in him he must be convicted . you must have indicted him , and convicted him , of the thing wherein he did commit perjury , and then he had been prepared to justifie himself . but shall you come now , and at this your trial , and prove what he said at staleys trial , and colemans trial , and irelands trial ? and must we examine what matters have received a verdict and a judgment there ? for consider what will be the consequence of it ; if it should be false , you there arraign a verdict . you should have convicted him of the falshood first . whitebread , i desire the jury to take notice , that he does not stick to the testimony that he gave then , for if he does it was false . lord chief just . they must not take notice of any thing that was done at a former trial , unless it be spoken of now . lord chief just . north , do not call any witnesses to prove what he said then , but to disprove what he hath said now . lord chief just 't is a pretty hard matter to make a priest understand one , for what i see . if the witness shall not gain credit with the jury that he came over with sir thomas preston , sir john warner ; if they are satisfied by those many witnesses , ten or twelve at least , that it is false , they ought not to believe him ; but as to that testimony they ought to believe your witnesses , but he is not presently guilty of perjury : for if they should not give ●redit to mr. oates , you must indict him , and another jury must pass upon him before he is convicted : for it is one thing to be forsworn and perjured , and another thing to be proved so ; and he is not proved to be so , but by a record for that purpose . harcourt , if so be our witnesses cannot be lookt upon as good witnesses , then there can be no commerce abroad in any other country . lord chief just . they are no doubt good witnesses till they be proved otherwise , and they are left to the jury to believe as they think fit . harcourt , now here are divers things that are brought against my self by mr. bedlow , mr. prance , mr oates , and mr dugdale ; if the witnesses that i bring , because they are roman catholick , are not good witnesses , then i am in an hard case . lord chief just . north , look then , you mistake the thing ; those that are not witnesses , we do not hear at all ; but our hearing them at all , proves that we look upon them as good witnesses . but when a man is a witness , he is either of more credit , or of less credit , according to circumstances ; and 't is a proper question to ask them , whether they are roman catholicks : but they are witnesses without all question . harc i say , my lord , these persons are known to be every one of them very bad and flagitious persons , and that every one of them have undertaken this course meerly to get a livelihood : they are men of desperate fortunes , they get a living by swearing fast , they find that the best trade . lord chief just . north , if you have any other witnesses , we will hear them . if you have have no other witnesses , then we must hear what the kings council reply , and then it will be your turn to say what you can in your defence . gaven , i have witnesses here . it is not indeed a positive evidence , but a negative evidence ; and i have a brother and a sister in town , and upon my salvation i never came to town but i came to their house . lord chief just . that will signifie nothing . mr. harcourt , have you any more witnesses ? if you have them , pray call them . harcourt , 't is in vain to call them , if they be not to be believed because they are roman catholicks . sir cr. levins , 't is a mistake ; we do not refuse any witnesses because they are roman catholicks . lord chief just . no , we have not refused any one point yet . lord chief j. north , if you have any more , pray call them , and don 't spend the time . lord chief justice , call a priest or two if you will , we will hear them . harcourt , mr. oates did accuse me of paying fourscore pounds at my chamber , and he did say afterwards it was at wildhouse , i have persons to justifie what was done at my own chamber ; and he says , mr. ireland was by ; now here are witnesses to prove that mr. ireland was in staffordshire all the month of august , therefore he could not be present . lord chief just . does he say any such thing now ? mr. just . pemberton , that was urged before ; pray do not insist upon that , it hath received a trial. lord chief just . i 'le tell you what he says , and i 'le ask him the question : dr. oates , it is supposed by your testimony that mr. ireland and mr. harcourt were together when this fourscore pounds was paid for the villains that went to windsor to murder the king ? dr. oates , i never said such a word . harcourt , here it is in the trial. lord chief just . i stand not by the printed 〈…〉 is no record in law. in short , were mr. ireland and mr. harcourt together 〈◊〉 time ? dr. oates , no they were not . gaven , he did then say , that he did receive of mr. ireland , the d of september , s. that he borrowed of him : now the d of september he was at boscobel . dr. oates , my lord , i was not positive as to the day ; but as near as i remember ( those were the words i said ) it was the second of september ; but whether it was the first , second , seventh , eighth , or ninth , i would not be positive in it . then the prisoners called pendrel and his wife , and gifford and his wife ; and gifford stood up . gifford , my lord , i was here the last sessions , where i did testifie the seeing of mr. ireland in staffordshire on the th of august , bartholomew-day , and the next day after ; at which time mr. oates said that he saw him here in town . but mr. oates could not be particular in every thing ; but at last he came to a circumstance , and averred that the first or second of september he did receive twenty shillings of mr. ireland in harcourts chamber ; he said it was about the fast day . dr. oates , that was as near as i remembred . gifford , here is in court at least six people that know it ; i saw him several other of those days there ; but these six people converted with him every day . mr. just . pemberton , how do you know al that ? lord chief just . north , come , come , you must not speak as to what he said in irelands trial. lord chief just . what time was it that mr. harcourt and mr. ireland conferred together about this same business ? dr. oates , my lord , i do not charge ireland , but i charge harcourt with being at wildhouse , and that there coleman met him , and that there was the greatest part of the money , which was carried back to harcourts chamber , and given to the person that was to carry it down to windsor ; but mr. coleman was gone away before , and had lest a guiney behind him which was given to the messenger for expedition . lord. chief just . i am mistaken if you have not testified that ireland was in town in august and september with harcourt . dr. oates , ireland took his leave of london betwixt the th and the th of august , as to go to st. omers . lord chief just . here is the matter , they must have right , though there be never so much time lost , and patience spent . say they , we must prove and contradict men by such matters as we can ; people may swear downright things , and 't is impossible to contradict them ; but we will call witnesses to prove those particulars that can be proved : ●ay where mr. ireland was in august ? dr oates , he took his leave of us in town in august , and that was between the eighth and twelfth at harcourts chamber . lord chief just . what do you infer from irelands being there then ? dr. oates , i 'le tell you what i design in it : your lordship may perceive that i did methodize my evidence according to the time ; for i said this was our business in april , this in july ; and now we come to the business of august , said i , we took our leaves of mr. ireland between the eighth and twelfth . i said in july mr. fenwick was out of town , but then if your lordship remembers i said he was in town , and took his leave of mr. ireland between the eighth and the twelfth of august . lord chief just . was mr ▪ ireland in fenwicks company at that time in august ? dr. oates , yes , my lord , he was when he took his leave . lord chief just . did they talk then of this business ? dr. oates , they took their leaves of one another , but as to what particular things of the plot they spoke about , i don't remember . lord chief just . look you now , mind what he says , ireland and fenwick were together in august between the eighth and the twelfth , but being asked , whether they were met on purpose to talk of the plot ? he says he does not remember the particulars . here the lady southcott , her son , and her daughter were called . lord chief just . did you say that fenwick there at the bar had converse with ireland in august for the carrying on of the plot ? dr. oates , yes , my lord. l. c. j. my rule is this in doubtful cases , when men are upon their lives , i had rather hear what is impertinent , than not let them make a full defence . lord chief just . north , i had rather hear things at a venture , than forbid things at a venture . lady southcott stood up . lord chief just . how long were you in mr. irelands company ? lady southcott , from the fifth of august to the sixteenth . lord chief just . what every day ? lady southcott , yes , every day . dr. oates , my lord , here is sarah pain who before hath testified what she hath known in this matter . if your lordship please i desire she may be call'd in readiness to speak to it . lord chief just . are you sure it was the fifth ? lady southcott , yes , as sure as i can be of any thing . mr. recorder , dr. oates , you had best keep your evidence intire till the last . then sir john southcott was called , and appeared . lord ch. just . did you know mr . ireland ? sir john southcott , yes , i did know him by face . lord ch. just . where did you see him ? sir john southcott i saw him the fifth of august at st. albans . lord ch just . and did he travel along with you ? sir jo. southcot , yes , he did travel along with us the sixth , seventh , eighth and ninth . lord ch. just . how many days did he travel along with you ? sir john southcott , he trave'ld along with us four days together i am sure . l. c. j. what from the th to the th ? sir iohn southcott . yes , sir. l. c. j. is this all that you can say ? sir iohn southcott . yes , my lord. l. c. j. but we would know where he was afterwards ; did you see him after the th ? sir iohn southcott , my lord , i saw him at st albans , and we went from thence to northampton , and from thence to coventry , and from thence to my lord astons , that is four days ; and i saw him thursday , i saw him friday , saturday , and munday following . tuesday i had occasion to go further into the country , and he went along with us ; so i saw him tuesday , wednesday , thursday and friday , afterwards . l. c. j. why then you saw him at least twelve days ? sir iohn southcott , yes . l. c. j. have you any more ? then mr. edward southcott stood up . l. c. j. were you here when ireland was tryed ? sir iohn southcott , no. l. c. j. did you see mr. ireland in august last ? mr. southcott , the third of august he came down to my lord astons at stanmore , they said so ; but i cannot swear he came that night , but i saw him very early the next morning ; the th we went to st. alban , & we kept on till we came to tixall ; and i was in his company from the th to the th . l. c. j. why , you hear what he says , he was in company with him every day from the th to the th . gaven , call mrs. harewell and her daughter , mrs. gifford , and mrs. pendrell . then mrs. harewell stood up . l. c. j. did you see mr. ireland in august last ? harewell . i saw ireland in august last , the th day : he came then to my house at wolverhampton , and there he continued every day , and lay in my house every night till the th , day . then young mrs. harewell stood up . harewell . mr. ireland came to our house in staffordshire the th of august , and stay'd there till the th ; i saw him every day , unless it was friday , the day before bartholomew-day , when he went to litchfield , and returned again . gaven . my lord , there is a prisoner now in newgate that can testifie the same . l. c. j. north. would you ask your fellow if you be a thief ? he is in for the same offence . gaven . my lord , i desire to know , if a man be not convicted of the same offence , whether he be not a good witness ? l : c : j : north. if he stand charged with the same plot , his evidence is of little weight . then elizabeth keiling stood up . l : c : j : did you see mr. ireland in august ? keiling , yes , my lord , i did . l : c : j : where did you see him ? keiling . i saw him at wolverhampton , there he was from saturday the th , to munday , and then i went to see my mother , and came back again on thursday , and found him there , and there he was till the th . gaven . call mr. pendrell and his wife . then pendrell stood up . l : c : j. when did you see mr. ireland ? pendrell . i saw him the second and third of september . l. c : j. where did you see him ? pendrell . at boscobel . l. c. j. and what , did you see him in august ? pendrell . no , my lord. l. c. j. how do you know you saw him then ? pendrell . my wife being paid for his diet , set down the day . l. c. j. what , he came to sojourn with you , did he ? pendrell . they were with me for their meals , and so my wife set it down . l. c. j. why , do you set down the day of the month when any one comes to you ? pendrell . yes , my lord , when we are paid for their diet , we do . l. c. j. what , do you keep a publick house ? pendrell . i keep the royal oak . l : c : j : methinks you should have a great deal of company if you live there ; and 't is hard you should charge your self to remember a particular person you did not know before . pendrell . my lord , he told me his name was ireland , and several others did so too . l : c : j : you had as good have let such trivial evidences as this alone , but go on . then mrs. pendrell stood up . l. c. j. do you know mr. ireland ? mrs. pendrell . i did know by report it was he . l. c. j. where did you see him in august or september ? pendrell . at boscobel , my lord. l. c. j. did you never see him before that time ? mrs , pendrell . no my lord l. c. j. do you know it was the same man that suffered ? mrs. pendrell . i will take my oath of it . l. c. j. how i when you never saw him before that time ? mrs. pendrell . i was in town when he dyed . then stood up mis. gifford . l. c. j. when did you see mr. ireland ? gifford . my lord mr. ireland came to wolverhampton the th of august , and he stayed there till the twenty sixth , it was of a munday , i remember it by several circumstances . l. c. j. did you know mr. ireland ? gifford , i never saw him before . l. c. j. do you know it was the same that dyed ? gifford . my lord , here was my brother in town , who saw him executed , and he did assure me ●e was the same . and i saw him again the second of september , and the th . of september again , and the th . and the th . my lord , he was the same man , i believe , because my brother told me so . mr. gifford . i saw him in the country , and i saw him executed . then another mrs gifford stood up . mrs. gifford . i saw him at pancrass fair in staffordshire . l. c. j. was it the same man that was executed ? mrs. gifford , my lord i cannot say that , i did not see him suffer but my sister and i were at a window , and she shew'd him to me , and said that was mr. ireland , and told me how long he had been in england . l , c. j. how do you know that was the man that was executed ? did you see him tried here ? mr. gifford . yes , my lord i did . l. c. j. and that was the same man. mis. gifford yes it was , my lord. l , c. j. when was it your sister shew'd you him ? mis. gifford . i saw him upon the seventh of september . then stood up one mr. bedle. l. c. j. when did you see mr. ireland ? bedle , i saw him at a place called millage in staffordshire the second of september . l. c. j. are you a roman catholick ? bedle. if i must make a confession of my faith , i will. but i saw him there , and they said it was mr. ireland the jesuit . l. c. j. had you no acquaintance with him before ? bedle. no. l. c. j. how do you know it is the same man that suffered ? bedle. i do not know that , but i suppose it was the same . turner . i am accused for being at tixall a consult in september , i desire to know who saw me there , for i have not been there these four years . l : c : j : mr. dugdale saw you there . turner . what witnesses besides ? l. c. j none but he for that . mr. recorder hath mr. fenwick any more witnesses to call ? fenwick , my lord , i have not any . then was captain hill called . fenwick , my lord , he can prove something against mr : bedloe ▪ he says , he lived in good repute ; but the captain will tell you he was in the marshalsey , and lived a poor mean life , and all the time sed upon the basket. l : c : j : north. he was guilty of the same treasons that you are guilty of , there is his fault . l : c : j : no doubt he was a naughty man , he was with you in this plot : fenwick , i can prove by sir james butlers clerk that he cheated a cutler of a silver hilted sword. then sir james butlers clerk was called , but he having more than one ; and the person meant , not being there , there could nothing be examined about that . l : c : j : north , he hath had the kings pardon for all that : fenwick , he was forced to run the country for a many cheats , and was forced to borrow ● or s , to redeem his boots , my lord does his pardon make him a good witness ? then we will prove something since his pardon . l. c. j. no doubt he was bad enough while he was with you . whitebread , my lord , i think i have a plain demonstration against mr . bedloe since his pardon ; he did at my last trial say that he had nothing to say against me , and now he com●s and gives fresh evidence against me . l. c. j. north , that is an objection that will not take away his evidence , but only goes to the lessening of the credit of it . he says he was in treaty with mr. reading about you . and the lords in the tower ; and to beget a confidence in him that the lords ●n the tower should receive favour from him , and come off by his means , he was to be easie to you too , which made him lessen his evidence at that time . this is that he ●ays , the weight of it must be left to the jury . and he said at that time he had more to say at time and place convenient . whitebread , there is no such thing in the trial. he hath alledged great matters against me , therefore it is evident he did falsifie his oath ; for if he were to swear the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth , and he did not say the whole truth , he is perjured ; if he did , he can say nothing against me now . l. c. j. north , mr. whitebread , you have your objection , and it must be observed to the jury . you repeating of things signifie nothing . then captain hill stood up . fenwick , pray sir , what do you know of mr. bedloe ? mr. just . pemberton . but don 't ask any thing before the pardon . cap. hill , i knew him in the marshalsey . fenwick . in what condition was he there , sir. capt. hill , he was a poor man , as i be , and lived upon the basket. harcourt . how long ago is it since you knew him there ? capt. hill. in may was twelve month. l. c. j. that was long before his pardon . but he might be an honest man for all that . though he were as poor as you . are you an honest man. cap. hill , yes , i think so . l. c. j. and so might he be , well , have you any more prisoners , no. sir cr. levins . gentlemen of the jury , you have heard the prisoners , and they have had a great deal of time to make their defence ; but the greatest part of their defence hath been to invalidate the testimony of mr. oates ; & what is the evidence they have brought against him ? they tell you first , that he did not come over , in that company that he says he came over with . and whereas he hath sworn he was here the th , of april , they have taken a great deal of pains by fifteen or sixteen witnesses to prove that he was all the time at st 〈◊〉 and that sir john warner and sir thomas preston who he tells you come over in company with him , never stir'd from the places of their residence , that this liege and watton , all that time : but this , gentlemen , you must observe , that if mr. oates were out of the case , all these persons except mr. turner are proved guilty of the treason they are charged with ; and yet i shall set up his testimony , and make him clear , notwithstanding whatsoever hath been alledged against him gentlemen , to take them in order , mr . whitebread hath mr . dugdale , mr . bedloe and mr . prance , to prove him guilty , let what will come of mr . oates , all of them speak to him . lord ch. just . prance , do you speak any thing against mr. whitebread ? mr. prance , no. mr. record . it was fenwick and harcourt . sir cr. levins , but there is bedlow and dugdale against mr. whitebread , and therefore , gentlemen , there are two have sworn against him , besides oates ; and there is two against mr. fenwick at least , nay , there are three , for besides oates there i● bedlow and prance ; as to mr. harcourt , there is bedlow , dugdale and prance , besides mr. oates ; as to mr. gaven , there is oates and dugdale ; indeed there is none but oates and dugdale against turner ; so that as to the three first however there are two witnesses besides mr. oates , that is , against mr. whitebread , mr. fenwick , and mr. harcourt . now as for mr. oates's testimony , and what they have to say to him ; in the first place , they have brought a young gentleman , mr. hilsley , and he says he did not come over with him , and there 't is one against one , but dr. oates hath sworn it , and hath given you such convincing circumstances how he lost his money , &c. so that i leave it to you which of the two is in the right , and ought to be believed . but then , my lord , as to the rest of the witnesses , here are a great many brought over to prove that mr. oates was all the while at saint omers ; but i shall bring you a considerable number of witnesses to prove that dr. oates was then in london , and that all these persons are mistaken . they do all pitch upon the first of may , to fix it upon a time wherein he says he was here in town : but gentlemen , i hope you did observe , that as to other things and time that were not so necessary as to this matter , there they were pleased to mistake , and to differ one from another , to contradict one another , for some of them said he went away and lest saint omers the tenth day of june , others the th , others , which was the same flemish gardiner , that he staid till july . truly half that variance in the time which is necessary would serve our turn , we are but for eight days time , that is , he was not above eight or ten days here , truly these gentlemen will be sure to speak punctually to all those eight days that hurt the prisoners , but they will vary thirty days at another time that hurts them not . why may they not be mistaken as well with that portion of time , as they were in the other wherein they so much differed one from another ? but i shall give you most infallible proof by and by , that mr. oates was in england at that time that he said he was in england . my lord , as to that of sir john warner , truly we have sent for a witness , but we did not know of the objection before ; they have now brought you the gardiner , and he did say positively at first that sir john warner was there all that while , but being asked again how he knew it , he said it was the talk of the countrey , and so some of the witnesses did speak to sir thomas preston . but then i did desire to know of these witnesses , whether these persons were never absent from these places or not , they told me they were absent for some time in the vacancy . gaven , that was in august . sir cr. levins , you are very good at expounding i know , but what those vacancies were i am not certain ; but being apt to mistake a little , they might mistake the time too , and they might extend their journey beyond their vacancy , mr. gaven he hath made a mighty defence i must confess , endeavouring to prove that he was out of town all june and july , and in april and may before , and truly he hath brought some witnesses that have spoken very far for him as to those months , but i will desire you to observe , as i know you did , that the three last witnesses that knew him very well did affirm positively that he was there the last week in july , but being asked to the week before that , and the week before that , they could not be positive . and under favour by that evidence you will believe rather that he was not there , for if so be they could so positively remember for the last week , why should they not be as positive for the two weeks before ? why these two weeks were enough to serve our turn , for it was towards the latter end of july that which mr. oates hath sworn upon mr. gaven , that he was in town , and talked of the same matters which he had written the letter about . and therefore it is much to be presumed , that because the witnesses will take upon them as to the last week , they are sure he was at wolverhampton , but as to the two other weeks they could not be sure , that they speak with some conscience , and therefore it may be true that he was here . and the woman said she could not say but possibly he might make such a journey and she never the wiser . so that under favour , gentlemen , all that which mr. gaven hath so industriously endeavoured to lay upon mr. oates , does shrink into a very slender evidence , and that it might well be he was at london at the time that oates says , the three last witnesses speaking positively only to the last week in july . then truly , my lord , they are fixed upon another great matter to blemish mr. oates as to mr. ireland , a person that is dead and out of the way . mr. ireland hath been hanged upon that evidence , so far it was believed , but now after all this will these gentlemen come to question the evidence that was given against mr. ireland . they have likewise , my lord , brought my lady southcott , and some other persons , who give you an evidence concerning mr. ireland , that he should not be here at this time , but gentlemen under favour mr. oates hath sworn before , and he hath now sworn it again , that mr. ireland was at that time in london , and gentlemen i will confirm him in that by another witness that did see him here in town at that time . and when you have two witnesses for the king upon their oaths come and testifie it , i hope you will belive them , rather than other persons that testifie only by hear-say . it was the matter then in issue , and had saved his life if it had been true , but though it be now settled , and none could think it would be again started , they would make that an objection , but by chance we have a witness still to give you satisfaction , that mr. ireland was in london at that time that mr. oates did swear him to be . we will begin with that witness about ireland . and then we will call our witnesses to prove that mr. oates was in england , and did come over when he said he did , call sarah pain . ( who was sworn . ) sir cr. levins , what time did you see mr. ireland in london ? did you see him in august last ? s. paine , i saw him about seven or eight days before i came to my lord chamberlain , and that was about a week before the king went to windsor . lord chief just . where did you see him ? s. paine , at his own door in russel-street . lord chief just . did you speak to him ? s. paine . no , i knew him very well , and saw him , as i came by . sir cr. levins , had not you carried many letters to him ? s. paine , yes , several letters . sir cr. levins , but where did you live before ? s. paine , i lived at mr. grove's . sir cr. levins , did not mr. ireland use to come there too ? sarah pain , yes , he did often . lord chief just . was any one talking with ireland then ? s. paine , no. sir cr. levins , how long did you look upon him ? did you see him go in ? did you see his face or his back ? s. paine , i saw his face , and made him a curtesie . lord chief just . this she said to ireland's face . mr. just . dolben , your evidence is that mr. ireland went out of town the th of august , and she says she saw him about that time , which must be the th or th of august . gaven , how does she prove it ? she does not say she spoke with him . mr. just . dolben , she swears it . sir cr. levins , now we must prove what time the king went to windsor . lord ch. just . sir tho. doleman , what time in august did the king go to windsor last summer ? sir tho. doleman , i believe ( i cannot charge my memory so well ) it was the th , it was about the th or th . lord ch. just . was my lord chamberlain there then ? sarah paine , my lord chamberlain went after the king. lord chief just . and when do you say you saw ireland ? sarah paine , i saw him seven or eight days before i went to my lord chamberlain's which was before my lord went to windsor , and that was a week after the king went thi●her . sir cr. levins , now i 'll tell you what she says ; she says she saw ireland a week before she went to my lord chamberlains , and she saw him go into groves house , where he did usually go for letters ; she says she saw his face , and made him a curtesie ; and that this was a week before she went to my lord chamberlains , and that was a week after the king went to windsor . now the time that mr. oates pitches upon is between the th and th of august , which by computation is the time she speaks of . gaven , and our witnesses go from the third of august to the fourteenth of september . sir cr. levins , call sir richard barker , william walker , sara ●ves , &c. william walker was fi●st sworn , and bid to stand up . sir cr. levins . pray , sir , do you know that mr. oates was in england the beginning of last summer ? pray tell your whole knowledge . mr walker , yes , my lord , i will. i have known , mr. titus oates these seven years , and had not seen him above five years ; but about two years ago i did meet him in newgate-market , and then again in the latter end of the month of march , or the beginning of april , i did see mr. oates in a disguise , in a gray searge coat , and i think a gray hat , but i did not understand it , nor did i know him to be the man , and i was very much troubled that i could not recollect my self who he was , and i went to bed , & could not recollect who he was ; but before i rose in the morning i did draw him within the scheme of my knowledg that it was titus oates , & to confirm my judgment in that , i did go to a gentlewoman , whose name i did not know , but i went thither because it was the same place that i had seen him at a year before , to enquire what became of mr. oates , and how he did : and when i came to her ( in the morning early , it was the next day after i had seen him in the disguise ) i enquired of the gentlewoman how mr. oates did , and she clapped her hand upon her counter , being a trades-woman , oh , said she , he is an undone man. why so , said i : said she , he is turned to the church of rome , and he absconds and hides himself , i knew not where he is ; then in plain terms , said i , i saw him later than you , for i saw him yesterday , between nine and ten of the clock , it was at the upper end of st. martins-lane , near leicester house . sir cr. levins , what time was this ? mr. walker , this was in april or march last was a twelvemonth . lord chief just . did you never see him more than then ? mr. walker , no , i knew his face so well , as i looked back upon him , and he looked back upon me , but it was with some kind of terrour , and he did seem to abscond and hide himself . lord chief just . when was this ? mr. walker . it was sometime from the latter end of march to the middle of april . lord chief just . why did you skip the beginning of april ? mr. walker , i am not able to remember exactly the time ; for why , i did never think to be called as a witness about it . lord chief just . did you speak to him ? mr. walker , no , my lord , i did not . lord chief just . how long before had you spoke to him ? mr. walker , a year before , but in his canonical habit , and not before of five years . lord chief just . north , you will not sure catch him upon a day . lord chief just . but i 'll tell you what it does , it contradicts all that your boys , all your witnesses say : though it does not go home exactly to the th of april , yet , if it be true , and we have no reason to believe it otherwise , it disproves all their evidence ; for they charge him to have been at st. omers all march , april and may. sir cr. levins , swear sarah ives . ( which was done . ) dr. oates , my lord , we bring sarah ives to prove that this same gentleman went to her to enquire of her about me . lord chief just . pray mrs. what did that minister say to you , and when , concerning mr. oates ? mrs. ives , mr. walker came to my shop , and asked me when i saw mr. oates ; said i , i have not seen him since he went beyond sea , then , said he , i have seen him later than you , for i was going to lei●ester fields , and at the end of st. martins-lane i saw him in a disguise , and he looked wishly back upon me , and i upon him , and , said he , i am certain it was the man. lord chief just . what time was this ? mrs. ives , it was april was a twelve-month . lord chief just . what time in april do you think ? mrs. ives , i cannot say the day . l. c. j. but what time of the month was it ? mrs. ives , i don't justly know , i think it was the middle of april , or thereabouts . lord ch. just . call another witness . sir chr. levins , call mrs. mayo . ( who was sworn ) sir chr. levins , well what say you , when did you see dr. oates in england ? mayo , i never saw his face till a week before whitesontide , or a little after ; there was a young man , a servant of sir richard barker's , that knew him a long time before ; he came to me and said , yonder is mr. oates hath changed his coat from a black to a white ; what is he ! said i ; he was a minister , but he is either turned quacker or catholick ; but , said i , he is not turned quaker , for he wears a perriwig , and he , fell a laughing and jeering at him ; said i , why do you deride this gentleman , when he is a friend of sir richard barker's . lord ch. just . where was mr . oates then ? mayo , he was in the court-yard , and i was in the kitchen . lord ch. just . when was this ? mayo , the week before , whitsontide . l. c. j. in what month ? mayo , it was in may. lord ch. just . did you know him before then ? mayo , no i did not , but i had heard much of him in the family . l. c. j , how soon did you see him again after that ? mayo , about a week after he came and brought another with him , and walked into the garden , and seemed to be discontented that they did not shew such a countenance to him as they used to do in the house , for the gentlewomen had heard he was turned jesuite and therefore were very shye ; that is , sir richard's kinswomen , my ladies sisters daughters . lord ch. just . do you know dr. oates now ? mayo , very well sir , afterward he came again and walked into the garden , and the young man i spoke of before , that is now dead , came again & tooke notice of him , of the strange garbe he was in ; he was in a room that looked into the garden , i saw him walking there , & said he , yonder is oates again , and hath brought another with him ; he looked out of the window , and said he , perithee look here , does not he looke like a jesuite ? and he that was with him lookt back , & if it had not been for that , & the young man's importunity , i had never taken notice of mr . oates . after when i heard he was come over and gave in his testimony about the plot , i would needs go see him ; but he spoke very slightingly to me , and seemed to be offended with the family because they did scorn him . said i they had no reason to countenance you , because we all understood you were turned catholick . they did , said he , look very shye upon me . why said i , you must not be offended , for you know all the family are no friends to jesuites and i hope never will be so ; but i hope mr . oates , you will not forget eaten bread , because he used to be made very much of at sir richard barker's . sir chr. levins , is that the man that you saw there ? mayo . this is the man , if you will put me to my oath again , i will swear it . sir chr. levins , when was this ? mayo , it was the week before whitesontide , it was in may , for whitsontide fell in may. sir. chr. levins , then call philip page . ( who was sworn . ) sir chr. levins , do you know dr. oates ? page , yes sir. sir chr levins . how long have you known him ? page i have known him four or five years . l. c. j. pray did you see him in the year , last year ? page , yes i did : l. c. j. at what time ? page , about the beginning of may. l. c. j. where ? page , at sir richard barker's . lord ch. just . were you acquainted with him before ? page , i had spoke with him before . lord ch. just . how do you know it was he , did you speak with him then ? page , yes , i did . lord ch. just . what habit was he in ? page . he had a light-coloured campaign coat . i ask'd him where he had been so long a time that we had not seen him , but he turned away from me , and gave me no account , but after he had been in the house , made back again , and away he went , after he enquired for sir richard. lord ch. just . how do you know it was in may , why might it not be in april ? page , it was in the beginning of may , to the best of my knowledge . l. c. j. by what material circumstances do you remember it was in the beginning of may ? is there any thing that puts it into your mind more particularly ? page . my master had a patient at that time that was sick of a feaver . l. c. j. where ? at sir richard barker's house ? page . at islington it was . jury , we desire to know what the patients name was , for some of us know islington very well . page . i have forgot the name . sir rich. barker , it was aldram milver's daughter , l , c. j. it was about that time in may that you saw him . page . i did upon my oath , and i spoke with him , and took much notice of him , he had an old black hat on that flapp'd , and a pair of spanish leather shoos . sir chr. levins , call sir richard barker . ( who was sworn . ) l. c , j. do you know dr. oates ? sir richard barker , yes , my lord , i have known his father and him ever since he hath been a child ; i saw him the last summer . l. c. j. about what time ? sir richard barker , at that time that they have given in evidence i have only this to say , i was abroade , as my business leads me often abroade into the country , but they told me mr . oates came to my house in a disguise , & that they believed he was turned either quaker or papist . l. c. j. when was this ? sir richard barker , it was , my lord , to the best of my remembrance , after whitsontide that they told me , but they told me a story of him , how that he was in two several disguises the one was a short hair , and then they thought he was turned quaker , an other time he had a long perriwig , and then they thought he was turned papist ; and the first that told me was this fellow here that is a coachman of mine who was mending some thing of his coach. it happened , my lord , upon the visiting of a gentleman that i was , very ill , in which time mr . oates was gone , and afterwards when i was recovered again he came to my house to enquire concerning dr. tongue . l. c. j. when did you see him first ? sir richard barker , it was my lord to the best of my remembrance the latter end of june , or beginning of july upon my recovery . lord c. j. by the oath that you have taken i would ask you one question , did not you see him till june ? sir richard barker . no my lord : but my servants told me they had seen him in may before whitsuntide . l. c. j , did you see him in june . sir richard barker , to the best of my remembrance it was in june . then one butler was sworn . l. c. j. come do you know dr. oates ? butler yes , very well . lord ch. j how long have you known him ? butler , i have known him these three years , before he went beyond sea. l. c. j. come , you are upon your oath , when did you see dr. oates , and where ? the beginning of last sumer . butler . i saw him in the beginning of last may at my masters house in barbican . l. c. j. upon what occasion ? what are you ? butler . i am sir richard barker's coachman . and i was making clean my coach in the gate-house & in comes dr. oates , in may ; last was twelve-moneth , the beginning of may ; with his hair cut off , close cropt to his ears , in gray cloaths , a gray coat like a shepherds coat , a york-shire gray , he asked me whether dr. tongue was within , i told him no , nevertheless he went into the house , & immediately came out again , & seemed to be very much discontented , but said nothing at all to me , but passed by me , & went away . l. c. j. and did you know him at that time he spoke to you first ? butler , yes my lord , because i knew him three years before . l. c. j. you could have then called him by his name ; butler . yes my lord i could . l. c. j. you say he came to inquire for dr. tongue , and was discontented that he could not see him . butler . he said nothing to me when he came out , but passed away as one that was troubled . l. c. j. did you you see him afterwards ? butler , six weeks after i saw him ; and then he had a long black coat and a perwig on . l. c. j. but are you sure it was the same man ? butler . i am upon my oath . mr. just . dolben , did you tell your mr . of his being there the first time ? butler , i did tell sir richard barker of him as soon as i saw him . l. c. j. sir richard ▪ how soon did he tell you oates was first there . sir richard barker , it was soon after , my lord. l. c. j. was it in may that he told you he had seen him ? sir richard barker , he told me as soon as ever i came home , in may as i remember . l. c. j. did he tell you mr . oates was there by name ? sir , richard barker . yes , my lord , he did : and when he told me what habit he was in , i wondred at it . dr oates , there are several , my lord , that did see me at that time , but they are gone into the country , and i cannot have them now ready : if you please now to call mr. smith , the school-master of islington . ( who was sworn . ) sir c. levines . do you know dr. oates ? mr. smith , yes , very well . sir. c. le. pray sir , how long have you known him ? mr. smith , he was my scholar at merchant-taylors school , where i was usher . sir , c. lev. when did you see him , the beginning of last summer ? mr. smith , i saw him in the beginning of last may , that is . l. c.j. where did you see him ? mr. sm. he dined with me at my house in islington . mr. j. dolben , what , the boys at st. omers now are gone ? l. c. j. recollect your self well : by the oath you have taken , did dr. oates in may was twelve month dine with you . mr. smith , yes my lord he did , and it was the first munday in may as i remember . mr. j.d. and this you swear directly and positively ? mr. s. yes , my lord i do . l. c. j. how long did he stay there ? mr. smith . he staid or hours after : and , may it please you my lord , he was in a summer suit , and a coloured ribbon , a green knot upon his shoulder . l. c. j. what did you discourse about ? mr. smith . about his being in spain , and flanders , and his travels . l. c. j. had you a long discourse with him ? mr. smith , yes , i had . l. c. j , had you nothing about the times ? mr. smith . no , my lord , not a word . l. c. j. did you understand he had been turned roman catholick ? mr. smith . i did know it . jury . my lord , did mr . smith see him any other time after that ? mr. s. no , my lord , not in months , to my remembrance about the middle of august : sir chr. levins , call one clay . ( who was sworn ) l. c. j. do you know dr. oates ? mr. clay , yes , my lord , i do . l. c. j. how long have you known him . mr. clay , ever since april last was twelve-month , l. c. j. was that the first time of your acquaintance with him ? mr , clay , yes , at mr. charles howards , l , c. j , where were you there with him ? mr. clay , he lived in one corner of old arundel house , l. c. j. how came you acquainted with him ? m. clay , truly i met him accidentally at mr . howards-house . l.c : j. how came you to come there ? mr. clay , i was there to visit mr. howards a friend . l. c. j. were you acquainted with him ? mr. clay . yes , i was with mr. howard , and there i saw dr. oates . l. c. j. when did you see him the second time ? mr. clay . the second time i think i saw him there too . l. c. j. when was that ? mr. clay . that was in may. l. c. j. north. how long was that after . mr. clay , i think the other was in april . l. c. j and did you see him in may ? mr , clay . i saw him in may too . l. j. c. clay , what time of the month was it ? mr. i cannot exactly speak to that , but it was in that month as i remember , i am morrally certain of it . l. c. j. and when did you see him after may ? mr. clay : i cant tell whether i saw him after may or not . l. c. j. is that the same man that you saw at mr. howards either in april or may ? mr. clay , yes ; my lord , it is the same man. sir charles levins . then we have done with our evidence . l. c. j. come gentlemen now what can you say to this ? they have given you ●●w their full charge . dr. oates , my lord , i have one thing more , i desire your lordship to take notice , this gent. mr , clay is a priest in orders , as they say . l. c. j. i will not ask him that question ; but mr. clay , are you a papist ? mr. clay , yes , my lord , i am so . l. c. j. north. come what say you now mr. whitebread to this . whitebread , i have this to say ; first , that at my last trial when i press'd him to declare who had seen him , when he said he was here in town , he could name no body , not one . i know afterwards he was examined at the committee , and then he could name no body neither . he said he was there privately at mr . groves , and we can prove that he never did lye there in his life . and then he said absolutely he had not seen much company , he stay'd but days . now this good dr. that does say he saw him here in the latter end of march , or the middle of april , whereas he himself says he came over with hilsley the th . of april . l. c. j. he was landed here the th . of april , and the witnesses say it was the latter end of april , or beginning of may. whitebread , mr . oates expresly said he stay'd here but dayes when he came over to the consult . l. c. j. why does not all this stand together ? whitebread , no , my lord , how could this stand together ? his coming over the th . and his being here a great part in may , whereas he says , he was but days . l. c. j. perchance dr. oates may be precise enough , but look you here , these witnesses , do not so exactly to a day or two , or , or or , but to the latter end of april . now why might they not see him the latter end of april , and the beginning of may , and yet stand very well with mr . oates testimony , who says he was landed here about the th . of april , and staied here about or days ? how nice would you have them be in that case , which because they are honest , they will not be . l. c. j. nor. you make your defences to depend upon an uncertainty of time , which no mortal man can ever remember ; besides , pray observe this , that mr. oates stands a good witness till you impeach him by a fry out of your own schools , and they go to the whole moneths of june and april , and may , now these all speak in contradiction to them , and so mr . oates is still set an upright and good witness . whitebread , they say they did see him there every day , or every other day . l. c. j. but sure i can as well tell who see him but once in such a month and dined with him , then as any that saw him never so often ; but here are five witnesses upon you in this point . whitebread , the one was told by his man , the other by his boy . l. c. j. the coach-man , and the boy , and the maid , and mr . smith did see him . mr. just pemberton . the divine did see him , and went and told the woman that he had seen him , pray remember that . l. c. j. nor. now the evidence is concluded , say what you will for your selves , and then we will observe what you object upon our direction to the jury , according to our consciences . gaven , my lord , then i say this for my self , we commit our selves to god almighty . we must compare the number , tho ours were not sworn , yet there were of them , boys , young men , that conversed with him every day , and these witnesses speak but of one or two particular days : one says he dined with him , and another saw him in a disguise ; but my lord in these very witnesses there is an apparent contradiction , because out of his own mouth ( ex ore tuo te judico ) they are contradicted . he says he came over upon sunday with hilsley which was the th . of april as i think , and stayed here only a matter of days . one of the witnesses says he saw him the first munday in may , what signifie the witnesses , though upon oath , that say they him in may ? how can he come over the th . of april , and stay but days ; and be seen here in may ? before these can be reconciled , one of them must be false ; and then my lord , besides , that which i first said , there is the number of witnesses , they are nothing in comparison with the number of ours . and then my lord , dly , if we should grant that a lesser number should serve the turn , because they are sworn for the king , because they swear for the safety of the king ( whom god preserve , whatsoever becomes of me ) and the other speak not upon their oaths , yet my lord , this does not destroy nor touch at all that evidence that is brought against him about the rector of leige , sir john warner , and sir thomas preston . and tho it be granted that all the others that spoke about mr . oates being at st. omers be mistaken , and must not be believed , yet we have him still by those others who have proved that he hath sworn false , and i hope we shall have fair play in the law , to make the best defence we can for our lives ; and i humbly conceive , no body must be convicted of high treason by the law , but upon the evidence of two sufficient witnesses . now i leave it to the conscience & honour of the court , whether he shall be believed , and counted a sufficient witness , when there are so many that have proved him false in that one point . and then besides all this my lord , we have here at least stafford-shire witnesses who give you an account of mr . irelands being out of london from the d. of august till september . so that in these two things he hath been contradicted without any answer , for he says , the . of august he was with him , when they say he was in stafford-shire , l.c. j. you have forgot the maid that saw him in london the or . gaven . no , my lord , i have not . and this is it i answer to it , she is a witness that only says she just saw him , but did not speak to him . l. c. j. she made a courtesie to him . gaven , we are talking now of seeing ireland in august , and we prove by sir john souththcott and all his family , who say they began their journey with him the th . of august , and stayed with him till the th . after the particular day that she speaks of , you find or of them swear that they saw him all the time . and therefore i would feign know whether poor mens lives shall be cast away upon such evidence as this . and then my lord ; for the other thing , i hope i have made a very good plea for my self concerning the matter of july , my witnesses could be positive , as to the last week , but for the other weekes tho , they could not be positive , they rather believed i was there then not , but when it is urged , why might not they give as good a testimony for the former weeks as for that . to this i answer fully , that there is a great & predominant reason why they should have particular reason to swear why i should be there the last week rather than the other weeks , because i was then shut up in the spiritual exercise , & they had a particular reason to take notice of that . then my lord , i hope you will be pleased to mind this by which i have made my plea good , that is , my lord , that mr . oates testimony against me is this , mr . ashby came to town about the middle of july , and that he stay'd there about a fortnight , and that in the time of that fortnight i came to town , and said i would go see father ashby , and had that discourse be speaks of , and so much for that . and then my lord , i beseech you still to bear it in your mind that i have been proved not to be in town at the time of the great consult about the plot , and indeed i was not capable of it , for i was not then professed , and there could none be of that congregation about the plot , but those that were professed , i could not be there in the congregation by reason of my age , mr . harcourt here and the rest , if you will ask them , will tell you it , they were there , but upon the word of a dying man i was not there . l. c. j. 't is not positively said by mr. oates that you were . gaven , but then my lord , he says , my name was to it , which he saw in july , now i prove that i was in stafford-shire the last week of july , and seeing i have witnesses to prove that i was there till the th , & the last week & it was after the th . that he saw me , i hope my plea is good . then my lord , i ground my plea upon this , i have studied philosophy● and other things , but i never studied the law , and so am very ignorant of it ; but this is my case , i am accused by one witness concerning one fact , and by another concerning another , the one committed here at london , the other in staffordshire ; i desire therefore to know whether the witness that swears the thing done in stafford-shire in another county being joyned to the other witness that swears what was done in london , can be esteemed two witnesses according to the law , to convict me of treason . l. c.j. north , yes , i l'e tell you if it were a matter of doubt , it might be found specially , and be argued , but it is a matter that hath been already resolved in the case of sir henry vane at the kings bench barr , who was indicted for levying war against the king , and there one witness proved the levying of war in one county , and the other proved the levying of war in another county , and so though they were but single witnesses of single facts , yet being both came up to the indictment , they were adjudged sufficient to maintain it . so it is in your case , here is one witness for the proving your hand to the paper , which was for the murther of the king , and there is another witness of your discourse to the same purpose , the fact is your joining and conspiring to destroy the king , and to levy war against him , and both these are proved , to the full of the indictment by these witnesses ; and though they are to several particular facts , yet they are all overt acts of the same treason . gaven . my lord , i have a contrary opinion to that in serjeant rolls . l. c. j. north , but this is a known case , and the law is settled therein . l. c. j. i 'le tell you what you mistake in what you say , for there are two witnesses , oates and dugdale , who swear to the same fact , which is killing the king , altering the government , and bringing in popery . oates says , he saw your hand to the consult , for the murder of the king , for the raising the army , and for the introducing of popery , which is a necessary consequence of change of government ; dugdale says he was with you in the parlor at my lord aston's , where the discourse was between him and you , and others , about killing the king , and altering religion . are not these two witnesses to one and the same treason . gaven , no my lord , i conceive not . l. c. j. if i consult a way to kill the king here , and then i go into the country and there i consult of it with ▪ another person , are not these two witnesses to the same treason , sure they are ? gaven . then my lord , my second plea is this , 〈◊〉 there be two witnesses , you will grant me this ground , that no man must be convicted but upon the evidence of two legal and credible witnesses , and upon clear evidence , as the statute since his majesties happy restauration does declare . now two things are required certainly to make a credible witness , and a clear evidence ; as the witness must be credible ▪ so it is as agreeable to reason that the evidence must be plain and clear , yea as clear as the light of the sun at mid-day . now therefore if i prove , that neither the witness is credible , such as the law requires , nor the evidence clear , such as the law looks upon as such , then i ought not to be convicted by this witness upon this evidence . l. c , j. the jury are judges of that , and therefore there i leave it . l. c j. north. you argue mighty subtilly , but i 'le give you this answer , there must be two lawful witnesses ; that is the law ; a man cannot be impeached of treason but by two lawfull witnesses ; now if they be not convicted of perjury , and their testimony be not taken away , but they may be heard in a court of justice , they are lawful witnesses ; now for the being credible witnesses , that is a matter that is left to the jury , but we must receive them as lawful witnesses till they be convict of a crime that takes away their testimony . gavan . therefore because they are left to the jury , i am satisfied , and i turn my self to you gentlemen . you are to sit upon my life and my death , as for my own part i can truly profess i am as innocent as the child unborn , and this gentleman mr. whitebread knows i was not capable of being at the consult , being not of age . now i must leave my self to the jury , and will leave it to their judgments whether these two witnesses can be esteemed credible witnesses ; for to make credible witnesses there is required honesty of life , and truth in their testimony , for no man can be a good witness that is not an honest man , nor that hath carryed himself so that he is not to be believed , as to the honesty of mr. oates his life , you have heard that he was disgusted by the jesuites , esteemed not a person of that diligence or fidelity to be intrusted by them ; he was turned out of st. omers , lord chief just . does that prove any dishonesty in mr. oates ? gavan . no , but i speak to his credibility . lord chief just . speak plain , how does it impeach mr. oates his evidence , that the jesuits did not like him . gaven . it might be a ground of hatred amnd alice in him against them , and then gentlemen , i desire you to consider that other thing , that we have proved him to speak false in his testimony about sir john warner and sir tho. preston ; and all the business of the th of august concerning mr. irelands being here the th of august , who by sixteen witnesses , is proved to have been all the while in staffordshire . and though he was not convicted of perjury before , which might have easily been done , as i have shewn to the whole world now , i appeal to the honour and conscience of the jury , whether all these proofs ought not to make this witness to be deemed an incredible witness . and pray gentlemen hear me this , and carry this away with you , as to the business of ireland , between the eighth and twelfth of august , how many do swear that he was in staffordshire , i desire you but to compare that one woman that only saw him , and made a curtesie to him , as she says , with those sixteen witnesses that conversed with him daily . then as for the second testimony of the st. omers witnesses , which you see is thwarted by some that do swear in the kings name to the contrary , still i desire you to compare number with number , the others though they do not swear , are ready to swear , and there are only or against of them , and there is an evident contradiction in what they say , and that proved out of his own mouth ; for he says he came over the twentieth of april with mr. hilsley , and stay'd only six days ; they say he was here in may , and i desire these may be compared : for how could it be that he should be here in may , if he staid but six days . and then to make your verdict , and take their credit away , i would desire you to consider those witnesses that i have brought for my self , not being here ; but in wolverhampton ; for being in stafford-shire as long as till the last week of july , it must fall within the time of his testimony . i have brought witnesses to prove upon oath , that from the twenty second upward , they saw me in wolverhampton ; and they do remember the particular instance , that i was then at my spiritual exercise ; and this is that i have to say as to mr. oates . as for mr. dugdale , i would desire you to reflect upon the whole story of his coming to discover this plot , and his being an informer about it . the truth is , i confess i have known him five or six years whilst he lived at my lord astons , and i have divers times discoursed with him there in mr. ewers chamber , but as i hope to be saved never any thing of treason in all my life . now 't is well known , and there are those that can testifie it , that in truth dugdale run away from my lord astons after he had lost three hundred pound of my lords mony . lord chief just . if you can say any thing against mr. dugdale by witnesses that you can prove it , then you say well , but if you will tell a story out of one lords mouth and another lords mouth , that is never to be indured ; you shall never take away a mans testimony by hearsay , you must prove it . gaven . 't is well known , if i prove dugdale no credible witness , i play my own game . you know i have been a prisoner weeks and could not seek out witnesses , i asked it as soon as i knew of my tryal , but it was denied me to send for witness to prove that dugdale was in goal for debt . if i had the recorders warrant , or the authority of this bench i could send for them . l. c. j. you must not fall upon persons without evidence , if you have witnesses to prove any thing , whom the jury will believe , call them . gav . i do assure your lordship , as i hope to see the face of god , i am innocent of what is charged upon me . and god bless the king and this honourable court. lord chief just . though you do a hundred times bless the king and court and all , you must prove things if you will be believed . what say you master whitebread ? whitebread . my lord , i have but one thing to say , and 't is but a word : your lordship was pleased to make an observation , and a good one it was , a letter which mr. dugdale says was written by me to mr. ewers , which he says he intercepted , he was in the mean time a trusty correspondent for his friend . in that letter he swears there was expresly contained positive words , of entertaining persons to kill the king , that only such as were hardy , desperate and stout , but as your lordship well observed , that it was an improbable thing that a man who had his wits about him should write such plain expressions about such a matter , and upon that improbability . i leave it to the jury . mr. just . pemberton . have you any thing to say mr. fenwick ? fenwick , i desire , my lord , your lordship and the jury to consider and observe the nature both of our witnesses , and of them that are brought against us . the one speak for the whole time that they saw him every day or every other day ; they daily conversed with him and eat and drank with him in the same house , the others they say only they saw him one particular day , another , another ; and one of them sayes he saw him but in a disguise . now my lord , whether it be likely that so many innocent children brought up in a good virtuous life should come here to forswear themselves to contradict people that we know not what they are , and then besides , we know that these people are of a poor mean beggarly condition , that intend to mend that condition by such a pretence of discovery , and hope thereby to advance themselves . it is probable , such people might be drawn in , then also we shall prove that sir john warner did not come over with him , nor mr. williams , nor sir thomas preston . then all his witness as to them is false , and he does not say he went back with these people , and this for the witnesses . now suppose the witnesses were all equal , what does he prove against us three ? or what reason doth he give of his evidence . he says , he saw such and such letters from mr. whitebread . now is it possible that a man that had no credit at all with us , that we should be such fools to trust him with such letters as those , then your lordships must hang us twice , once for fools and then for knaves . or is it possible that we should be such egregious fools that we should trust a man that was never esteemed of , was expelled the colledge . and for all his talk of commissions and letters , there is not one of those found , let him shew any one commission , any money paid , or any order brought in , or any arms that were found , there are three quarters of a year now passed since the first discovery , certainly all this time could produce something . thousands of letters have been taken from us , some of those letters would have discovered this thing : certainly therefore we have better evidence than he hath , supposing them to be equal as to credibility in their original . is it credible we should be so great rogues to contrive the kings death , though he speaks of the writing being carried from chamber to chamber concerning this matter , he can never produce one paper signed by any one mans hand , nor can he produce any thing to attest his testimony . i leave this to your lordships judgment whether this evidence be good , there is nothing appears in so much time of any effect that is produced : where were the armies ? where were the monies paid ? where the commissions ? is it possible such a thing should be , and no sign of it for a whole year almost ? there is no reason brought amongst them all , but saying and swearing , and that i will stand by . whitebread . i thank god i don't look like a fighting-man , nor i never did ; but who can think that i should be so mad , when i had committed such a secret to him , to beat him , as he says , 't is strange that such a plot should be discovered wherein so many persons of quality , honour and reputation are said to be concerned , and yet no footsteps of it appear , and none of them , as my lord arundel , my lord bellasis , should never divulge such a plot ; i would feign know whether such a thing be probable , but i commend my self to god almighty and the jury . harcourt , my lord , i have only this to say , i have lived to this age , which is years , and i never knew any man that could say i was accused of the thing in the world , for which i should be brought before any magistrate , and it is strange that after so many years i should come to be arraigned , and condemned for a crime of the highest nature , and there is no reason brought against me nor any of the rest , for the proof of what is alledged , nor do they who are the witnesses against us deserve at all any credit : they only affirm such and such things without any reason , to perswade you to believe them , and it is easie to say , and so it is to swear it . so that all i have to say is this , since a negative cannot be proved , i hope innocency will find some that shall defend it . i leave my self to the bench , for the law is the defence of innocency . if they did bring any evidence besides that , which is down right positive swearing , without any reason or concurrent reason to confirm it , it were something . fenwick , and besides all this , to think how these men have lived before time is worth reflection and considering . as for bedloe , he hath been a very ill man , the world knows it . lord chief just . have you proved it ? can you shew any record of it ? mr. just . pemberton . turner , have you any thing to say ? you have had your time . fenwick . you will find that nemo repente sit nequissimus , no man arrives at the highest degrees of impiety at first : men grow extreamly wicked by degrees . but let us see if they can blame our lives , or any thing that we have done at any time before ; we prove , and all the world knows what they have been , and how scandalously they have lived . gaven . our witnesses are to be regarded for their number and for their innocency , especially since they give no reason nor convincing arguments for what they do affirm . lord chief just . we would hear you , and we have heard you very long , but it must not be permitted you to go over the same things again and again . lord chief baron . hath turner any thing to say ? turner . all that i have to say my lord is this , to ask whether it be reasonable that bedloe and oates should be looked upon as good witnesses , that these persons who have been such scandalous people should be admitted to an oath , who are debarred from the sacrament ; for according to the church of england , no man that is publickly scandalous can be admitted to the sacrament . lord chief just . but you prove nothing . turner . i can prove it first by evidence of one hastings . lord chief just . call him . but he appeared not . the lord chief justice , directions to the jury , against whitebread , &c. l. c. j. gentlemen of the jury ! here hath been a very long evidence , and a very confused one ; and you cannot expect , that it should be wholly repeated to you ; for it is almost impossible , for any one to remember it ; neither would i if i could , because a great deal of it is impertinent , and vainly to be repeated : and besides , many things have been said over , and over again , to no purpose . but i will observe to you , as well as i can , what testimonies there are against each particular man of them ; and that i do look upon , to be very material . and i leave it to you , to judge and consider , how far the evidence is credible , and how far it is substantial . against mr. whitebread ▪ you have the testimony of three , oates , dugdale , and bedlow : against mr. fenwick , you have the testimony of oates , bedlow , and praunce : against harcourt , you have oates , dugdale , bedlow , and praunce . you have against gaven , dugdale and oates , and against turner , dugdale and oates : so that , to the two last you have two , three to the two first , and four to harcourt . now , the matter that they have sworn , hath been all tending to one thing : the murder of the king , the advancing of popery , and the suppression of the protestant religion : that is the thing , that all the evidence does drive at . for dugdale , for ought we can perceive , he hath been upon the matter a stranger to oates and bedlow ; and i do not find , that he had any correspondence with , or knowledge of them , at the time he charges mr harcourt , and mr. gaven . and he charges ▪ them with the very self same things , viz. the consulting the death of the king , and advancement of popery . and they have several instances of the facts , as their several consultations ; how they met together , and where , or at what place : and dugdale tells you of a letter , that he found ; wherein whitebread gave charge , for the entertainment of good stout fellows ; no matter for gentlemen , so they were resolute . and so they have several mediums , to prove one and the same thing . mr. fenwick sayes to all this , here is nothing against us , but talking and swearing . but for that , he hath been told , ( if it were possible for him to learn ) that all testimony is but talking and swearing : for all things , all men's lives and fortunes , are determined by an oath ; and an oath is by talking , by kissing the book , and calling god to witness to the truth of what is said . that is the essence of an oath , and those are the ceremonies : the kissing the book , and speaking , is the accidental form ; the substance , is calling god to witness . therefore , what a vain thing is it in mr. fenwick , to seem to tryumph , by saying , there is nothing against us , but talking and swearing . there is nothing against them , but evidence and proof of men upon oath : and their reasons , the truth is , are very trifles . they defend their lives as they do their religion , weak arguments ; and fallacious reasons . for that long business , that mr. gaven hath undertaken to say against mr. oates , and what they all insist upon , viz. the number of their witnesses , which were sixteen , amounts to this , to disprove mr . oates , that it could not be true what he sayes , that he should be present here at a consult , the twenty-fourth of april , because they have brought sixteen from st. omers to prove , that he was there all april and may. 't is very true now , if that be so , it is impossible , oates can swear an truth : but whether that is to be believ'd or no , is the question ? methinks , they did not do well for themselves , when they bid you remember the nature of the evidence . they did well enough , to bid you remember the number : for the number is more than what oates is back'd with on t'other side ; but the nature is of much less weight : not only because they are not upon their oaths , for by law they may not be upon their oaths ( and that must not be charged on them as a defect , seeing they would swear , i doubt not , if they might ) but because their testimony is really to be believed much alike without an oath ; as with one ; because they are of a religion that can dispense with oaths , tho false , for the sake of a good cause . but , seeing they desire the nature of the men may be considered , you are to observe , that they are proselytes , and young striplings of their church ; which does indeed , in one respect or other , abuse all her disciples , and keeps them in a blind obedience , to pursue and effect all her commands . if the doctrins of that church were better ; if such which are allowed by their chief authors , were but less bloody and inhumane ; if they had ever put those that are so ▪ into an index expurgatorius , that they might have been publickly di●owned , and declared as the particular opinions of some ill men , which they did disavow ; these men might have been then more worthy to be regarded . but when none of their popes have done this ( who must have very strange foreheads , if they say , they have ) and such doctrines are still owned : there is much indeed to be observed from the nature of the evidence , the nature of the men , and their profession . i must confess , i believe , that they would deny their principles to be bloody , or to be defended and allowed by any of their best authours , if at this time , the fear of apparent falshood did not deter them . but if to murther kings , or to depose them , and absolve their subjects from their allegiance for the advancement of religion , be a thing most impious , and void of religion , and makes religion worse than none ; which doctrine yet they have owned , and their counsells have owned , and we have proved it upon them , and out of them : i cannot tell what to say to these men , or their testimony , the nature of whom they desire to be considered . but they were young boys , sent for hither on purpose to give this testimony ; and it was not indeed , a fault in the prisoners at the bar , to send for what evidence they could for themselves : but it is very doubtful and suspitious , to have such green , and flexible minds , thus imploy'd , and i must leave it to you , to consider how far these young men train'd in such principles , may be prevailed on , to speak what is not true. and now if the kings evidence after this , stood alone , it were yet something : but when you have mr. oates testimony as to this great matter of his appearing in april , confirmed by or witnesses , that speak so expresly to it , how will they answer it ; do they make sir ric : barker , a person of no value ; do they so little esteem the minister that says , i knew him though he was in disguise ; and went and said it presently to a woman , that he knew was acquainted with oates . and asking her , when she saw mr. oates and she saying , not a great while : he said , i saw him later then you ; and says he did know him : and this is confirmed still by sir rich : barker , who tells you , that his men told him , that he had been there . what should make them to acquaint their master so , if it were not so ? or do you think it is a thing maliciously prepared or invented to take away the lives of these men , that his men should tell him a story so long ago ? if it be not true , to what purpose should they tell him so ; and if it be true , it confirms the matter sworn against them . there is he , that was his companion , the school-master , that says , in the beginning of may was twelveth month , mr. oates dined with him at his house , sate with him four hours , discoursed of his travels into spain and st. omers : and there is the man that is a papist , if not a priest , that swears he saw him twice , about the middle of april , at mr. charles howards lodgings in arundels house ; so that here are seven witnesses direct or circumstantial , to prove mr. oates to have been in london , in april and may . but said they this is but talking and swearing . very fine ! and the st. omers youths is talking , but not swearing . ay , but then their numbers are not so many . that gentlemen , i leave to you , for both cannot be true . the testimony of mr. oates , and the witnesses that he had to back himself withall , and to prove himself to be here is inconsistent with what the young men say , that he was at st. omers . now if you observe ; all these mens defence is in the circumstantial part of the evidence in watching and catching at what day , what hour , and what month , how mr. oates reckoned false , so and so : if he came here about the th of april , how could they see him the first of may. and they think then , they have got such a mighty victory , but it is not so weighty an argument with protestants after all their conceit , that it is unanswerable ; for here is the point , the matter of time is a thing that no man can so precisely charge his memory with , as that it should be too strictly the measure of your judgments about truth or falshood , by the mistake of or days . examine your selves how often every day you do mistake things that have been transacted half a year ago , and err in point of time ? taking one week for another , and one month for another , and though i must say , it is considerable , yet too great weight is not to be laid upon that . as for that they insist upon so much , the coming over of sir thomas preston and sir john warner with mr. oates ; it is true , three or four witnesses speak , as to sir john warner , and some to sir thomas preston ; and they say , they were both beyond sea when mr. oates came over ; but if the sixteen be not to be believed in the first matter , and if mr. oates does say true , notwithstanding all their evidence , that he was here such a time in april and may , then i 'le tell you what inference may naturally be ; to wit , that they can't want a witness to prove what they please : for i believe there is none of them all will make any bones of it . i say ( gentlemen ) if you are satisfied in your consciences , that the evidence on mr. oates his part to that point ( that is to say , seven witnesses ) ought to prevail with you , to believe he was here in those months notwithstanding the witnesses , who say they saw him every day beyond sea in april and may ) , their other evidence about his coming over with preston and warner , will have no great weight ; because the other is the great matter , by which they make the substance of their defence . i am glad indeed to see a gentleman here whose face i never saw before , and that is mr. dugdale ▪ upon my word he hath escaped well , for i find little said against him , very little either as to the matter or the manner of his evidence . they would have made reflection on him for his poverty , but i hope that they whose religion is to vow poverty , will never insist on that for any great objection against any . l. c. j. north , your lordship hath forgot that he said he gave away three or four hundred pounds to them , l. c. j. but i will challenge all the papists in england , to satisfy any man that hears me this day of one piece of evidence , which will turn every protestants heart against the papists . if so be , they murdered sir edmundbury godfrey , the plot even by that is in a great measure proved upon them , by that base murder . and what can be a plainer proof of it , than the evidence of this day , which mr. dugdale produces ? we had notice ( saith he ) on monday night , that on the saturday before it ▪ sir edmundbury godfrey was kill'd ( which falls out to be that very saturday he was first missing ; ) which notice was given in a letter writ by harcourt to evers , another priest , that same saturday night , wherein were these words , this night sir edmundbury godfrey is dispatched ; and i am sure if this be true , then no man can say but they murdered him . whitebread . it is not alleadged against any of us. lord chief just . it is an evidence of the plot in general , and to harcourt in parcular . harcourt , he never shews the letter that he says i writ . l. c. j. he says , that he used to peruse the letters , and that evers had this again , after he had perused it ; he says also , he has received at times a hundred letters from you , and this among the rest . now the question is , whether it be true or no ? to make it out , he produces mr. chetwnyd , whom i hope you wll not deny to be a gentleman of one of the best family of his country , and of honest reputation , who says , that on the tuesday following that saturday sir edmund-bury-godfrey was mist , he and another were talking together in staffordshir , and that the other person asked him if he knew of the death of any justice of the peace at westminster , and when he told him , he had heard of no such thing ; no said he , that is strange , you living sometimes about westminster , for said he , the wench at the ale-house saye , that this morning mr. dugdale said , to two other gentlemen , there was a justice of peace of westminster , kill'd ; and mr. dugdale swears , that was sir edmundbury godfry . now , if dugdale be fi● to be believed , that he saw such a letter , as he must be it , he be not a very great prophet to be able to foretell this : or if the maid that said this , did not invent it ( a thing then impossible to be done ) or mr : chetwynd feigned , that he heard the man make his report from the maid ; this thing could not come to pass , but by these men . nay , if mr. dugdale could not do as great a miracle as any are in the popish legends , how could he tell , that it was done on the same night when it was done at london ? or speak of i● , on the munday-night after when it was not known in london till the thursday following ? this will stick , i assure you ( sirs ) upon all your party . for my own part , this evidence of mr. dugdales gives me the greatest satisfaction of any thing in the world in this matter ; and whilst we rest satisfied in the murder of that man , and are morally certain you must do it , knowing of what principles you are , you cannot blame us , if upon such manifest reasons we lay it upon you . and this is occasional evidence , which i for my part never heard before this day ; nor can i ever be more , or better satisfied , than i am upon this point , viz. the testimony that i have received this afternoon concerning the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey . as to the defence they have made , they are exceptions in point of time , but do not affect mr. dugdale ; for they have hardly the confidence to deny the things he sayes to be true against them . they fall foul indeed upon mr. oates . he appears to have been their agent ; and whilst so , bad enough : but if he had not had a mind to have become a good man , he would not likely have done us that good that he hath done , in discovering the design you had engaged him in . let any man judge , by your principles and practices , what you would not do , for the promoting of the same . for while this gentlemans blood lies upon you ( and some have been executed for it ) , it must be yet farther told you , that in what you did do , you have given us a specimen of what you would do . we have a testimony , that for promoting your cause , you would not stick at the protestants blood. you began with sir edmundbury godfrey , but who knows where you would have made an end ! it was this one man you kill'd in his person , but in effigie the whole nation . it was in one mans blood your hand ; are embrewed ; but your souls were dipt in the blood of us all . this was a handsel only of what was to follow ; and so long as we are convinced you kill'd him , we cannot but believe , you would also kill the king. we cannot but believe you would make all of us away , that stand in the way of your religion : a religion , which ac● 〈…〉 you would bring in upon us ; by a conversion of us with blood ; and by a baptism with fire . god keep our land from the one , and our city from the other ! to return , the letter that is found in harcourts papers , does further confirm mr. oates in all the great and considerable matters that he sayes ; that there was a plot , that that plot was called by the name of a design , which was to be kept close and secret. and this is an evidence that cannot lye. for that letter will never be got off , no more than the other letter , that mr. dugdale speaks of about sir edmundbury godfrey . and thus i leave it to you , gentlemen : you have heard how many vvitnesses they have had for them , about twenty-four or twenty-five of one sort or another . you have heard what they apply their testimony unto , to convict mr. oates of falshood in matter of time , which was their principal defence ; that he was not here in april and may , and that he came not over with sir thomas preston , and sir john warner , and that ireland was not here all august . you have heard what vvitnesses oates , is back'd withal , as to the time of his being here : and the maid says , she saw ireland here in august . however , though their defence depends but upon a point of time : i must tell you , it ought to be well considered , for 't is indeed very considerable towards their defence ; and god forbid but we should be equal to all men . and so i have remembred , as well as i can , in this long and perplexed evidence , that which seems to me most material as to their charge or discharge ; and that which they have made their greatest defence by the youths from st. omers to disprove mr. oates his being here , and mr. irelands not being in london in august , which in truth is not the proper business of this day , but hath received a former verdict before : for if so be the jury before had not been satisfied of the truth of that , they could never have found ireland guilty . so i leave it to you upon the whole matter . i can remember nothing besides . go together , and consider of your verdict , according to your evidence . l. c. j. north. gentlemen ! my lord hath repeated it so fully to you , that i shall not need to add any thing to it . then an officer was sworn to keep the jury , who withdrew , and the judges also went off from the bench leaving mr. recorder , and a competent number of commissioners there to take the verdict ; and about the space of a quarter of an hour , the jury returned , and answered to their names , and gave in their verdict thus . clerk of crown . gentlem●n , are you all agreed of your verdict ? omnes , yes . cl. of crown . vvho shall say for you ? omnes . foreman . cl : of the cr. thomas white , alias , whitebread , hold up thy hand . you of the jury , look upon the prisoner : how say you ? is he guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman guilty . cl : of cr. vvhat goods or chattels ? foreman . none to our knowledge . ( and so severally of the rest . ) which verdict being recorded in usual form , mr. recorder spoke to the jury thus mr. recorder , gentlemen , you of the jury ; there hath been along evidence given against the prisoners at the bar. they were all indicted , arrainged , fairly tryed , & fully heard , for high-treason depending upon several circumstances . they can none of them pretend to say , ( and i take the liberty to take notice of it , for the satisfaction of them , and all that are here present , and all the world ) that not a person among the prisoners at the bar , were either wanting to themselves to offer , or the court to them to hear any thing that they could say for themselves . but , upon a long evidence , a full discussing the objections made against it , and a patient hearing of the defence they made , they are found guilty : and i do think , that every honest man will say , that they are unexceptionably found so ; and that 't is a just verdict you have given . and then the prisoners were carryed back to newgate , and the court adjourned till eight next morning . and then mr. langhorne was tryed , and found guilty : after which , they were all six brought to the bar together , and received judgment to be drawn , hanged , and quartered : which accordingly was done upon the five jesuits and priests , on fryday the twentieth of june , at the usual place of execution . finis . advertisement . mr. recorder's speech before judgment , will be published at the end of mr. langhorn's tryal ; which is now in the press , and will speedily come forth . a true account of the proceedings against john ayloff, and richard nelthorp esquires at the king's-bench-bar ayloffe, john, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true account of the proceedings against john ayloff, and richard nelthorp esquires at the king's-bench-bar ayloffe, john, d. . nelthorpe, richard, d. . p. printed by d. mallet, london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. caption title. imprint taken from colophon. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng england and wales. -- court of king's bench. trials (treason) -- england. treason -- great britain. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - kirk davis sampled and proofread - kirk davis text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true account , of the proceedings against iohn ayloff , and richard nelthorp esquires at the king's-bench-bar , on the th . of october , . relating to their award of death , upon their being out-lawed for hightreason , in conspiring the death of his late most sacred majesty , charles the second of ever blessed memory : together with their behaviour , confession , and manner of execution on the th . of october , in the year aforesaid : on which day , richard nelthorp was executed on a gibbet erected at greys-inn-gate in holbourn , and iohn ayloff on a gibbet erected at chancery-lane end in flee●●street : both quartered as in case of high-treason . such are the horrid crimes of treason and murder , that by daily experience we see they seldom go unpunished even in this life : the wise man gives wholsome advice when he fore-warns men to take heed they do not curse the king , altho' it be in their secret chambers , lest the fowles of the ayr make discovery thereof : much more ought men to tremble at the thoughts of any undertaking against the life of god's vicegerent . it is a horrid murder for a private man to compass the death of his father ; and much more horrid the father of his country ; for altho' , men may think to flee out of one country into another , and secure themselves from the vengeance due to such crimes , yet providence so orders it , that those very methods they take for their security , commonly brings them to justice , as we have a fresh example of the persons now brought thereto . iohn ayliff and richard nelthorp esquires ; men whose education is against them and who were not ignorant of the law ; yet having once violated the same , by joyning in the horrid conspiracy against the life of the mercifulest of kings , his late majesty of ever blessed memory , his present m●jesty , the utter subversion of the government , &c. they were not content , by fleeing from justice to live in contempt of the of the law , but to imploy that time god permitted for their repentance , in the enterprize of fresh treasons against his most sacred majesty that now is . iohn ayloff took his lot with the late earl of argyle setting up for one of the rulers of the scotch commonwealth , and after the design was blasted , and he amongst others taken , the sence of his guilt run him forthwith upon the rock of despair , by laying violent hands upon himself , and with a pen-knife or other instrument which he carried about him he rips up his own belly as far as nature would suffer him ; but god in mercy to his soul , so ordered it , that he did not dye thereof , but after a long illness recovered , and was with others of those traytors brought for england , and soon after committed to newgate , where he remained eight or ten weeks . rich. nelthorp , a person brought up to the law , but leaving that study engage d in the r●e-house conspira cie and with the said ayloff be●●● since attainted by out-lawry of high-treason , was of those who came over with the late duke of monmouth● and one of the principal captains in that western rebellion . soon after the deseat of the rebels , being taken and committed to some goal in the west country , was from thence brought to newgate , where his crimes had little better effect ( then the other in scotland ) behaving himself for sometime like a person destracted , and very impatient under the sufferings which his treason had brought upon him . on monday the th . of october , upon the motion of the king's council , a habeas corpus was granted , to bring up these two criminals to the king 's - bench-bar at vvestminster , and being accordingly on tuesday the th . ditto , brought up by the keeper of newgate to the said bar. the lord chief justice herbert , and the other judges of that court sitting on the bench. first , mr. ayloff was called to hold up his hand , and told that he had been indicted by the name of iohn ayloff late of london esq for high-treason in conspiring the death of his late majesty , the subversion of the government &c. that he had thereupon been out-law'd , and stood attainted of high-treason , was therefore askt what he had to say why judgment should not be awarded , for him to dye according to law. to which mr. ayloff at first replyed he had been out of the land and did not know of it , at last said , that he had seen or heard only of a printed tryal of captain walcot , wherein mr. west had made some mention of him ; but he desired to know what was sworn against him by the witnesses . then the same method being used to mr. nelthorp , he answered very little , only said he had not conspired the death of the king. after that , the lord chief justice in an excellent speech , declaring that it was no hard case for traytors to be executed upon an out-lawry , and how inexcusable they of all men were , who had not only fled from justice , deprived themselves of a tryal , by standing in contempt of the law , but ingaged since in other treasons and rebellions ; his lordship also giving them divers christian admonitions to improve the short time they had left for the good of their immortal souls . in conclusion told them , that nothing remained for that court but to award judgment upon the out-lawries . and a rule was made for their execution on fryday the th day of the said moneth , as in cases of high treason . mr. ayloff then desired he might have the liberty of his friends coming to him , and the same being granted , provided it was in the presence of a keeper , they were remanded to newgate . on thursday the th ditto , one of his majesties council moved the court of kings bench , that whereas a rule was made for the execution of the said iohn ayloff and richard nelthorp as the next day ; for a more publique example , one of them , viz. ayloff might be executed over against the temple gate in fleet-street , and nelthorp against grayes inn in holborun , to which inns of courts they did formerly belong when they studied the law ; and the court ordered it to be done accordingly . pursuant to which rules of court on fryday the th ditto about ten in the forenoon , first richard nelthorp was drawn from newgate on a sled , to a gibbet erected over against grayes inn gate ; he had on a black sute , and two in black habit went by the sled , viz. on each side one . after it followed an elderly person also in mourning , he was but a short time at the gibbet before executed , he spoke to several that were near him with a seeming cheerfulness , praying also with great earnestness , and to appearance at this last moment of his life submitted with greater patience to the punishments which his treasonable practices had brought upon him , then he did during his imprisonment ; very readily , addressing himself to undergo the sentence which the law had pronounced . he had on a whlte sattin cap over a linnen one , and himself helped to pull it down over his face . being turned off , he hanged the usual time , and then was quartered , &c. iohn ayloff , by some called col. ayloff , according to the rule of court made for his execution , was delivered by the keeper of newgate , on the th . of october to the sheriffs of london and middlesex , between ten and eleven in the morning ; when being put into a slead ; he was conveyed through the old-bayly and fleet-street to a gibbet erected between chancery-lane end , and one of the temple gates , where upon his arrival being in the slead , he confessed that he was in the rebellion raised by argile in scotland , and was conscious of the late conspiracie , that he suffered justly and deservedly , praying for the king , and desiring the prayers of all people , but more especially of those that were spectators ; after which and the like expressions , he came out of the slead , again , and desired god to bless all present , lifting up his hands and eyes towards heaven , when looking upon the gibbet he ascended , and in ascending , repeated his prayers for the people , praying to god to keep them in the right way of loyalty and obedience , &c. and to preserve the protestant religion ; being ascended , he prayed a while to himself , and turning at the request of the executioner , his back to the ladder ; he said that he was now willling to dye , but bid the executioner not to turn him off till he gave notice ; the signal being the lifting up his hands ; when being bid to go somewhat lower on the rounds of the ladder , the sooner to put him out of his pain , when turned off , he after having prayed a while , said he was ready , biding the executioner turn him off , which was accordingly done , when having hang'd about half an hour ; he was cut down and quarter'd according to sentence , and his quarters to be disposed of , at the pleasure of the king. this may be printed , r. l. s. october the th . london , printed by d. mallet , . copies of some few of the papers given into the house of parliament in the time of james naylers tryal there, which began the fifth of december, rich, robert, d. . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing c a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing c a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) copies of some few of the papers given into the house of parliament in the time of james naylers tryal there, which began the fifth of december, rich, robert, d. . tomlinson, william. fox, george, - . p. s.n., [london? : ?] copies of the testimonies of robert rich, william tomlinson, and george fox at the trial of james naylor. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. eng naylor, james, ?- . trials (blasphemy) a r (wing c a). civilwar no copies of some few of the papers given into the house of parliament in the time of iames naylers tryal there, which began the fifth of decem rich, robert c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - jonathan blaney sampled and proofread - jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion copies of some few of the papers given into the house of parliament in the time of iames nayders tryal there , which began the fifth of december , . to the speaker of the parliament of england , these to be read . friends , act nothing cōtrary to that which doth cōvince you , though bound with an oath , although you bring your selves in never so much disgrace in breaking your agreement ; for in such a case you may reject the counsel of god against your own knowledge , and so appearing to please the world that looks upon you , the unjust acts against the just ; herein you 'l do despite to the spirit of grace , wilfully acting that which he knows he should not : so here comes mans condemnation just from god ; therefore before you do act consider ; and before you do give sentence fear ; for blasphemy proceeds from the root of transgression ; and see that you be first out of it before you of it do judge : there is no blasphemy in the light which is truth . and to witness the light is not blasphemy . and to witness the prophets life , and the apostles life that had the life of jesus made manifest in his mortal flesh . and to witnesse the life of god , and god dwelling in man , is not blasphemy . and to witnesse the second adam , the lord from heaven , and as he is , so to be in this world , is not blasphemy ; but not to witnesse this , and to be in the transgression , he is in the root that will blaspheme ; and for a man to say he witnesses these things , and himself in the transgression , he blasphemes , and is the synagogue for satan , who did transgresse , and not abide in the truth , who is in the transgression . now it is not because men can speak the scriptures of truth , therefore they are able to judge of blasphemy ; for the jews could speak the scriptures of truth , but judged the truth blasphemy ; now if you would know what 's blasphemy , this is blasphemy , and these were out of the life of the truth that judged the life blasphemy ; and you do not read that any that was in the life of christ , did whip , banish , prison , put to death any for blasphemy ▪ alas ! here is blasphemy heard all up and down the streets , men professing what they are not : now the jews which had the scriptures , and out of the spirit of christ , did put to death for blasphemy : now with this examine and judge your selves , that you may not be judged of the lord : although darius could not change after sealed , yet 't was much grief to him : consider what act that was , and law that was not to be changed after sealed . and consider herods oath against iohn baptist , and the counsel and chief priests against christ for a blasphemer . is christ in you ? now where is this councel and chief priests against him ? it is better to judge of things which you truly understand , pertaining to this life ( but that you cannot ) till you come to the light that enlightens every man that comes into the world , and so leads into the kingdom of god and christ that is not of this world ; for there is a kingdom of the world which is not become the kingdom of christ , which is in the transgression ; and there are the blasphemers in the transgression of the life which the scriptures of truth is given forth from , which judges the truth blasphemy . now wait in the light that you may receive the wisdom of god which comes from christ , by which all things was created , that with it you may come to use the creatures with the wisdom by which they were created to the glory of god . i know the lord is striving , that innocent blood you bring not upon your heads , and hath opened your understandings for to see more then at the first ; and in many of you hath he wrought a noble principle of tendernesse and moderation , in which if you abide faithful to act what it requires , the arm of the lord you will see revealed , and great things brought to pass ; and so will you be clear ( whatever becomes of the innocent ) in the day of gods visitation when he makes inquisition for blood ; you whose understandings the lord hath opened and moved to plead the cause of the innocent ; be faithful to god ; be your talent never so small , take heed of hiding it , least your sin become greater then you will be able to bear . it concerns no man farther to judge then he is judged , and is in the truth . this in tender love to all who are of an upright heart that sits in parliament , from robert rich. there was several copies of the letter given to particular members , besides this little paper given to many that had not the letter . in a letter of mine given to the speaker this morning ( which i desire may be read amongst you ) is written at the latter end thereof these words , viz. if i may have liberty of those that sit in the parliament , i do here at their doore attend , and am ready out of the scriptures of truth , to shew , that not any thing james nayler hath said or done is blasphemy , or worthy either of death or bonds . these were delivered the . of december , being the eleventh time the whole house had set about this businesse ; so when i had given the speaker the letter , i waited at their door from the time they first sate till they arose , and then i departed in peace . robert rich . to you that sit in parliament , who own the scriptures , are these ●●r , what is writtten aforetime is written for our admonition , cor. . . quaery . whether those that said god was their father , and crucified him so : blasphemy that spoke the truth , were not 〈◊〉 , and of their father the devil , yea or nay ? read ioh. . . & . . whether lyars , covetous or proud men are not the synagogue of satan ? and if such say they are the children of god , or christians , whether ( by the scripture ) that be not blasphemy ? read rev. . . . whether the lyar doth not hate him that abides in the truth ? read ioh. . . and there see why cain slew abel . and as it was then , is it not so now ? doth not he that is born after the flesh persecute him that is born after the spirit ? read gal. . . . whether they that have the spirit of christ jesus in them , punisheth the body , or puts any to death for words true or false ? and did not christ come to save life and not to destroy it● read mark . matt. . , iohn . . . whether christ jesus hath not been a stumbling stone , and a rock of offence throughout all generations ? read and see isa. . . & . luke . . pet. . , . luke . , , . matt. . , . luke . . & . ( read these scriptures over and did not the very disciples of christ oft stumble and were offended at him ? read over these scriptures and consider them well , matt. . . to the . ver. & the . ver. matt. . . ioh. . . luke . l , , , & . ver. ioh. . , . joh. . . lu. . . and did not the prophets do many things that the wisdom of the flesh might count foolishness , and to be rediculous ? read isa. . , . ier. . , , , &c. ezek. . , , , &c. & ezek. . , . acts . , . ios. . . vvhether the lord in all ages hath not tried the children of men ? read psal. . , . rev. . , . and whether the day be not approaching that will try every mans work ? cor. . . and whether all men be not either the children of god or of the devil ? and whether by their fruits they are not made manifest ? and whether those that are the children of god be not lead into moderation , gentlenesse , patience , mercifulnesse , meeknesse , love , &c. and whether the devil leads not his into wrath , envy , hatred , emulation , varience , strife , & c ? so in this thing you will make your selves manifest which spirit leads you , and whose children you are . search the scriptures , and see if these things be not so . robert rich. after the tares appeared , then came the servants of the housholder and said unto him , wilt thou that we go and gather them up ? but he said , nay , lest while ye go about to gather the tares , ye pluck up also with them the wheat : let both grow together until the harvest , matth. . . &c. this is the doctrine of christ iesus our lord . such care hath christ jesus of the wheat , that he will not that his servants pluck up the tares until the harvest , the end of the world , lest they pluck up the wheat with them ; this is his wisdom , but some men pretend such care for the wheat , that they will have the tares pluckt up before the harvest ; this is their wisdom . now minde whose wisdom you follow , and whose doctrine you obey ; for you can do christ iesus no service in going contrary to his own doctrine , though some may think they do , ioh. . , . they shall think they do god service when they are killing his servants , mistaking them for his great enemies , for else they would not kill them to do him service . my desire is , that you may be found in the counsel and doctrine of christ iesus , which is safe , and keeps from that danger of shedding innocent blood . will. tomlinson . you have called him a blasphemer , we desire that you would publish what his blasphemy is , that we may know it and take heed of it . christ iesus himself was called a blasphemer , because he said , i am the son of god ; and saith iohn , ioh. . . now are we the sons of god . w. t. the neer relation between christ jesus and his father being owned by him , was counted in him blasphemy , because he said , i am the son of god . take heed lest the neer relation between christ and his members whom he calls brethren , be not now counted blasphemy where it is owned . and consider these scriptures . now are we the sons of god through christ , saith iohn , ioh. . . if a son then an heir of god , saith paul , gal. . . if sons , then heirs , heirs of god , and joint-heirs with christ , rom. . . him that overcometh will i make a pillar in the temple of my god , and i will write upon him my new name , saith christ jesus , rev. . , . he that hath an ear let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches . if you be able to see these things , do ; but if not , take heed what you do , least you bring innocent blood upon your own heads . there 's none able to judge of these things before the lusts of the flesh , and the lusts of the eyes , and the pride of life be judged and overcome in them , and the love of the world . that 's blasphemy for a man to say he is a jew or a christian , and is not , but still is in the old nature , that was a murderer from the begining ; he blaspheams the name of god , rev. . . for god hath no such children in the new covenant . as it was then , he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the spirit , so it is now , gal. . . but he that is born after the spirit never persecutes him that is born after the flesh . w. t. friends , your hands have hitherto been held from shedding of blood ; consider what it is that hath withstood you , and kept you from it , and do not go on to strive any longer against the lord ; but remember david how glad he was that he was prevented from blood , when he was going with a full resolution , and the thing was gone out of his mouth to destroy the house of nabal , sam. . , , . blessed be the lord god of israel ( saith he ) which hath sent thee this day to meet me , and hath kept me this day from coming to shed blood , and this was but the blood of a wicked man . so friends consider , and strive not against the goodnesse of the lord , which hath hitherto withstood you , and kept you off from shedding of blood , and that with little force . it will be no grief of heart to you that you have not shed blood , but to shed it may lie heavier upon you then yet you are aware . to let the tares ( if tares ) alone with the wheat , according to christs own doctrine ; this will not repent you , because it is his own command ; but under pretence of plucking them up , to pull up one of the least of his lambs , this will be a burthen too heavy for you to bear ; and though you may think you do god service therein , yet he accepts it not . to seek the harm of one that would not hurt an hair of your heads , consider whence this is , and what acceptance this would have with god , seeing he saith , he that toucheth you ( the innocent lambs ) toucheth the apple of mine eye ; therefore touch not mine anointed , do my prophets no harm , saith the lord ; and blessed be their work who are made tender of them , for what 's done to one of the least of those that belong to christ , is done to him . william tomlinson . they are very confident , who kill christs lambs , to do god service , that those they kill are not his lambs , but his enemies , else they would not kill them to do him service ; for they could not think it service to god to kill his children : yet see how far their confident zeal is mistaken , while they think they kill his enemies , they kill the children of the kingdom . thus it happened to christ , the zealous jews were very confident he was a blasphemer , and seducer of the people , and therefore they durst say , his blood be on us , and on our children ; upon the same account the members also of christ alwayes suffer , as blasphemers , as hereticks , as seducers of the people . you are now upon this danger , and trial of your spirits . now why is it that in this confident zeal they kil his children , taking them for enemies ? it is ( saith christ iesus ) because they know not the father nor me , ioh. . , . now examine your selves you that are for killing , or hurting ; do you know the father ? do you know the son ? have you communion and fellowship with them ? is the son begot in you ? is he formed in you ? are you come into his innocent nature ? if not , your confidence and zeal will deceive you , and you stand in that nature that will kil children for enemies ; for you cannot know them til you know his nature brought forth in you . and if his nature be once brought forth in you , you wil finde a saving spirit raised up in you , not a destroying spirit ; for christ and every measure of him is a saviour , not a destroyer ; and so from christ the saviour spring up many saviours , obad. v. . he that is the destroyer and persecutor , is yet in the old covenant , hagar , he is but the son of the bond-woman ▪ which is yet in bondage with her children , and is to be cast out , gal. . , to the end . and if ever you come to witness the new covenant , and the law of god writ in your hearts , and the nature of christ formed in you , you will finde the persecutor in you cast out , and that it enters not the kingdome ; for there 's nothing hurts nor destroyes in all gods holy mountain , isa. . . wil. tomlinson . was not the appearance of christ when he was born glorious , when that the voyce was cryed hosanna to the highest ? was not this to the astonishing of the beholders , and amazement of the world ? did it not stir up all chief priests , and herod , was not he puzled about his birth , and they troubled at his coming ? did not the chief priests and rulers gather against him who was full of grace and truth ? did not the glory of him shew it self forth when he went up unto jerusalem , when the high voice was spoken , and the songs to him sung , the strength ordained out of the mouths of babes and sucklings ? and was not jerusalem the highest place of worship ? and did not the strength which was ordained for the babes and sucklings , set the priests and rulers on rage against christ , that they crucified and slew him ? and did not that make herod and pilate friends in the highest place of worship ? did not he say , and tell his disciples , hee would come again , the hosanna , him that was cryed glory to the highest ? and did not he come again to his apostles according to his promise , and make his abode with them , and sup with them ? did not the apostles say to the saints that christ was in them the mysterie , the hope of glory ; and if he was in them , the body was dead because of sin ? did not the apostle say , examine yourselves , prove yourselves , know you not that iesus christ is in you except you be reprobates , [ mark ] iesus christ in you , the emmanuel , the saviour , the lamb of god , the hosanna ; is not his appearance in the spirit as glorious in his second coming , as it was at his first ? is it not as much to be admired in the world as it was ever ? answer these things , and satisfie your selves : to the light wherewith christ jesus hath enlightned you all , i speak , that with it you may see when you act against him where he is manifested . to prison them contrary to the just is to make them to grow , and to banish them is to shame your religion , and not to own the thing the scripture speakes of , and to put them to death , is to destroy your selves . george fox . whether or no you will suffer christ to have as much honor in the earth , and the world , as the devil hath ? where christ is manifested , whether or no he shall not have more honour , or as much , where he is manifested ? and whether or n●… it is offence to bow to man , or to kneel before a iudge in the world ? whether the● be offensive to the world , amongst the world , to bow before such , and among such the truth is not in ? and whether or no it would not be offence to such , to bow to christ where he is manifested , and persecute such as do bow where the thing is in the truth ; whether or no such a thing may not be done in the truth , and bee a figure to all the bowings of the earthly powers which be out of truth , which hath reigned above the seed of god ? an example to you all : therefore take heed and consider , before you act any thing or judge , lest god judge you afterward , for be assured he will . whether bowing in the truth may not bee a figure , that the seed of god shall rise , and reign above the earthly powers , and they shall bow to it ? and how know you but such things as these may bee tryalls to you , whether you will persecute another , for taking that which is acted among you to your selves , in another way different from this ? now come to do as you would be done by , and do not persecute that in another that is acted in the world , though it be professed otherwayes in the intent , and come to the true measure and weight : and act nothing in your own wils , nor out of the counsel of god , to judge the just upon earth in this world , the just you 'l be judged by , that is of the world to come , without end . i receive not honor of man ; whether or no if any do persecute the seed , which doth take the honor of god , which is over the world and it they themselves do take the honor of the world , that persecutes the contrary . are these things judged with a just measure , and weighed with an equall ballance , yea or nay ? george fox . did not christ wash the disciples feet ? did he not do that as a pattern and example to those that came after him , that they should do so to one another ? have you washed one anothers feet ? have ye anointed one another with oyle that stumble at these where they are acted ? are not these the expressions of love to one another ? and are not these things to be acted amongst the disciples of christ ? are not these things wonders amongst you that do not wash one anothers feet , that be out of the example of the lord ? did not the disciples wash one anothers feet according to christs example ? were not the prophets feet washed ? did not peter desire his head to be washed ? do not wonder and strange at these things where they are practised : were not the saints to salute one another with a holy kisse ? and was not peter to be carried whither he would not ? was there not a time that he girded himself ? and is it not the prince of the air that rules in the children of disobedience , if it be not the prince of peace and the lamb of god ? and is it not an expression of love and honor where there is the washing of one anothers feet ? and for the washing or kissing of feet , it is but an expression of love and humility ? and is not this a patern and example to all you to judge you all how far short ye are of washing one anothers feet , or kissing one anothers feet ; and do not wrong one another about these outward things , but to come to know the seed of god , which bruiseth the serpents head , which would destroy and set one at enmity with another ; that crusheth down these outward things , and reigns over these outward things ; which seed of god comprehends all strife , and comprehends the world ; which seed the promise and blessing of god is to ; in which seed is the unity , and not the enmity , for that is it which is bruised with it . therefore do not shew your selves in enmity against these actions , where they are acted in the seed of god in righteousnesse , not in the world , out of the enmity ; not as justifying the wicked in these things , nor condemning the righteous . minde consideration before you do judge of such as are moved to act these things , whether or no they be not examples to you all , to try you all , whether or no you will persecute , or lift up your hands against such ; and an act whereby you may search your selves , and see how far short ye come of a disciple : and come to that good in you all , that is of god , that with it you may overcome , if there be any thing that is evil , and the heaping the coles of fire upon that which is the adversary : and whether or no there be not such things to be acted in righteosunesse and simplicity , as washing the feet of the disciples , or that some may be carried whether they would not go ; and if any should kisse the feet , or wash the feet of another in love and simplicity , is that such a crime ? and for jesus and christ , and the prince of life and peace ; if jesus christ be within , the second adam is witnessed , god with us , which is jesus ; and be not offended with this , if any do witnesse the state reconciled to god , who hath witnessed the state drove from god , the first adams state , who witnesses the second adams state , the emanuel , god with us . again , now be not ye offended at this , least you do manifest your selves to be in the first adams state , driven from god , not witness jesus christ , god with you , reconciled to god again . but if you stand against this , it shews your selves to be in the transgression , standing against the emanuel , which is god with us : be not hasty in acting these things , but examine and consider before you do act . except ye see signes and wonders ye will not believe ; but this is come to pass that the scriptures might be fulfilled , that saith , the time will come , that they shall think they do god good service when they kill you . remember the scripture which saith , his face is more marr'd then any mans , isa. . . and whether this be not the same that gave his cheeks to the smiter , and opened not his mouth ? and see now who they are that have spit upon him ; but what evil hath he done . notwithstanding all these warnings , yet on the . day of the tenth moneth , the major part of the house pronounced sentence on him . finis . a brief account of the proceedings against the six popish priests, condemned for high-treason on the th day of this instant january, / viz. lionel anderson, alias munson, william russell, george parry, henry starkey, james corker, and will. marshal, two benedictine monks, formerly tryed with wakeman : with whom was likewise tryed alexander lumsdell : who though he appeared to be a priest, yet being born in scotland, he continues upon a special verdict : the heads of the evidence against each of them, and their defences and behaviour. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing l estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a brief account of the proceedings against the six popish priests, condemned for high-treason on the th day of this instant january, / viz. lionel anderson, alias munson, william russell, george parry, henry starkey, james corker, and will. marshal, two benedictine monks, formerly tryed with wakeman : with whom was likewise tryed alexander lumsdell : who though he appeared to be a priest, yet being born in scotland, he continues upon a special verdict : the heads of the evidence against each of them, and their defences and behaviour. anderson, lionel, d. , defendant. corker, james maurus, - , defendant. kemish, david joseph, defendant. lumsden, alexander, defendant. parris, charles, defendant. russel, william, defendant. starkey, henry, defendant. p. s.n., [london? : ] caption title. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng anderson, lionel, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. corker, james maurus, - -- trials, litigation, etc. kemish, david joseph -- trials, litigation, etc. lumsden, alexander -- trials, litigation, etc. parris, charles -- trials, litigation, etc. russel, william -- trials, litigation, etc. starkey, henry -- trials, litigation, etc. popish plot, . trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - celeste ng sampled and proofread - celeste ng text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a brief account of the proceedings against the six popish priests , condemned for high-treason the th day of this instant january , / . viz. lionel anderson , alias munson . william russel . george parry . henry starkey . two benedictine monks , formerly tryed with wakeman . james corker , and will. marshal , with whom was likewise tryed alexander lumsdell , who though he appeared to be a priest , yet being born in scotland , he continues upon a special verdict . the heads of the evidence against each of them , and their defences and behaviour . there were eight priests in all brought down and arraigned this day ; but the first , called david joseph kemish , being a very aged man , and appearing extream weak and ill , the court upon his request was pleased ; after he had pleaded not guilty , to remit his tryal to another opportunity , when he might be better able to make his defence . the other seven were tryed singly and successively one after the other , by one jury , consisting of persons of good worth , against whom none of them made any challenge or exceptions . corker and marshal before they pleaded , insisted on their former tryal , pretending they were then acquitted of all treasons : but the court ( many of the judges , and particularly the lord chief justice scroggs being present . ) answered , that this was another sort of treason , for which they were not then questioned , so that this vain suggestion was over-ruled . they were indicted upon the statute of eliz. to this effect : that being born in the kings dominions , they had received ordination from the see of rome , and after that came into and abided in the kingdom , contrary to that law which had made that offence high-treason . the kings council opened the indictments learnedly , and set forth the necessity and just reason for making this law , because of the many treasons practised and promoted by jesuits and popish priests against queen elizabeth ; and shewed , that whoever does take orders from rome , does in effect renounce his allegiance to the king , for he thereby owns another supream power , viz. the popes ; which is such , according to the doctrine of that damnable church , that he can excommunicate and depose the king , and absolve all subjects from obedience to him . the evidence that appeared and were made use of , were doctor oates , mr. bedloe , mr. dugdale , mr. prance , and mr. dangerfield . the first that came upon his tryal , was lionel anderson , alias munson , an antient man , and seeming to be sick ; against him three witnesses swore , that they had seen him officiate as a priest , receive confession , say mass , consecrate and administer the eucharist , &c. and particularly mr. dangerfield deposed , that while he was in the kings-bench for debt , and this anderson there likewise a prisoner , he told the witness he had a letter from the lady powis , that the said mr. dangerfield should skower his kettle , by which phrase ; they mean , confess his sins ; and that acordingly he did go to confession with the now prisoner , and received the sacrament , after which the prisoner put him upon drinking hard with another person , to pump out some things for the invalidating mr. bedloes evidence ; and mr. dangerfield being scrupulous so to do , lest he should be drunk on the same day that he had received , this precious father told him , 't was all one for that , he would give him leave to be drunk , since 't was for the good of the cause . next corker was brought on , against whom two of the evidence testified , that he had likewise officiated in the same manner at the savoy , and seen him in his preaching habit. 't was also proved that he had a patent to be bishop of london . against mr. marshal there was only dr. oates , that could swear that he had heard him say mass ; yet mr. bedloe had seen him in his habit , and when he put it off , was told he was going abroad to receive confessions : but to put the matter out of doubt , it was proved by two witnesses , that when he was tryed for the plot , he owned himself in open court to be a priest ; which though he now denyed , yet several of the court well remembred it . this gentleman as he had a voluble tongue , and affected eloquence , took up much time with his rhetorical harangues , and urged much his acquittal by the former jury ; whence he would infer , that dr. oates and mr. bedloe were perjured , in swearing they were concerned in the plot , when yet they were found not guilty ; and that thence they were never more to be counted credible witnesses . but mr. justice pemberton took him up roundly for that sawcy reflection , telling him , a witness might give a just and true evidence , and yet it might happen , a jury not to believe it ; but god forbid thence the witness should be censured as perjur'd or invalid . the prisoner likewise call'd their old voucher ellen rigby , who said she never saw mr. oates in the savoy at the times he mentioned ; which seemed very little to the purpose , for he might be there and she not see him : besides , they made a mighty stir , that mr. oates could not see them there at mass , because he was then but newly reconciled to their church , and so it was not likely they should trust him : but to that they were told , that in . and . they were not so very shy of saying mass , or cautious who heard , especially being a new convert . william russel was used to harbour in wildhouse , where 't was proved that he had said mass , and at other places . his vestments were likewise taken with him , which at that time he owned to be his , as was sworn by the honourable sir william waller , though now his fatherhood thought fit to tell a lye , and disown it . george parry was well known by several of the witnesses to be a priest , who had been at mass with him sundry times ; and mr. prance was so well acquainted with him , that he seized him long since the discovery of the plot in the street ; and he had indeed reason to remember him , for that he had dealt with him in his trade , bought silver boxes for hallowed oyl , and other knacks of him ; and once sold him a consecrated chalice , by the same token he would not let the witness touch it , till he had broken off a piece of it , lest the sacred vessel should be prophaned whilst it was intire , by a lay-mans handling . henry starkey was a lusty ancient gentleman , with but one leg , the other being lost , as he alleadged , in the kings service in the late civil wars . though the witnesses named several places where they had heard him say mass , he stiffly denyed it , and made solemn imprecations that he was never at such places in his life . alexander lumsdell was a fryar , and predicator-general of his order . he was proved as plain as the rest , to be a priest ; but by his voice and affirmation it appearing probable that he was a scotchman , and born , as he said , at aberdeen , it seemed a point of difficulty to the court , whether he should come within those words of the statute , born within the queens dominions , since at that time scotland was under another monarch : and therefore it was thought fit to direct the jury to a special verdict . so that without sentence , he must remain so convict till the judges shall have determined the matter . their defence in general appeared rather crafty than solid , allowing themselves a liberty of denying the most apparent truths ; the main plea of them all being , that they were not proved priests , because none of the evidence were by when they received orders ; but as to that the court resolved them , that it was enough that they had exercised those pretended sacred offices , which none but priests in their church are allowed to perform : for otherwise the statute were vain , and its force wholly eluded ; besides , some had confessed themselves priests , and the orders of one had been seen by one of the witnesses . then they all lay at catch about circumstances of time and place , wherein it was morally impossible that the evidence should be positive ; or if they could have been so , the prisoners would have had some of their own gang that , to serve their turns , should have alleadged they were then at other places . to this purpose one of them produced two young lads that affirmed very roundly , that the prisoner was from christmas , till hollantide next , at such a place in the country ; that they saw him every day , because he constantly dined at their house : yet one of these ill-tutor'd youths that could name the year of our lord so readily , being askt how many years ago this was , could not tell ; so that the juggling was apparent . being further askt , whether they were sure they dined every day , and particularly on ash-wednesday and good-friday , they answered affirmatively , though 't is well known no such thing is usual with papists . they were very frequent in appeals to heaven , and pawning their salvation at random , on trivial circumstances , and things no way credible , their main designe being to scandalize the evidence . the jury , after about a quarter of an hours withdrawment , brought them in guilty : and thereupon the six before-mentioned being severally asked , what they had to offer why sentence should not pass ; anderson and starkey pleaded their former loyalty and services to the king , which mr. recorder promised to relate to his majesty . marshal with a multitude of words cited the lord cook , to prove priesthood in itself no crime ; but was shewn by the court the impertinency of that argument . he likewise insisted on the kings declaration for liberty of conscience ; but was answered , that of whatever force the same was , yet it was never meant to extend to popish priests . thus after a full and fair hearing , mr. recorder in a grave and excellent discourse proceeded to pass the sentence , usual in cases of high-treason . these were the heads of this days transaction ; which for the present may satisfie people of the just and equal proceedings of the court. but for all particulars , we understand the whole tryals , exactly taken , will be made publicque by authority , to which the more curious are referred . finis . the lawes against vvitches, and conivration. and some brief notes and observations for the discovery of witches. being very usefull for these times, wherein the devil reignes and prevailes over the soules of poore creatures, in drawing them to that crying sin of witch-craft. also, the confession of mother lakeland, who was arraigned and condemned for a witch, at ipswich in suffolke. published by authority. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing l aa thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) the lawes against vvitches, and conivration. and some brief notes and observations for the discovery of witches. being very usefull for these times, wherein the devil reignes and prevailes over the soules of poore creatures, in drawing them to that crying sin of witch-craft. also, the confession of mother lakeland, who was arraigned and condemned for a witch, at ipswich in suffolke. published by authority. lakeland, mother. p. printed for r.w., london, : . annotation on thomason copy: "oct: ". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng witchcraft -- england -- early works to . trials (witchcraft) -- england -- ipswich -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no the lawes against vvitches, and conivration.: and some brief notes and observations for the discovery of witches. being very usefull for th lakeland, mother. b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - pip willcox sampled and proofread - pip willcox text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the lawes against vvitches , and conivration . and some brief notes and observations for the discovery of wjtches . being very usefull for these times , wherein the devil reignes and prevailes over the soules of poor creatures , in drawing them to that crying sin of witch-craft . also , the confession of mother lakeland , who was arraigned and condemned for a witch , at ipswich in suffolke . published by authority . london , printed for r. w. . the lawes against vvitches , &c. anno primo iacobi regis , cap. . the penalty for practising of invocation , or conjuration , &c. be it enacted by the king our soveraigne lord ; the lords spirituall and temporall , and the commons in this present parliament assembled , and by the authority of the same , that the statute made in the fifth yeare of the reigne of our late soveraigne lady of most famous and happy memory , queen elizabeth , entituled , an act against conjurations , inchantments and witchcrafts ; be from the feast of saint michael the archangel next comming , for and concerning all offences to bee committed after the same-feast , utterly repealed . and for the better restraining the said offences , and more severe punishing the same , be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid ; that if any person of persons , after the said feast of st. michael the archangell next comming , shall use , practise , or exercise any invocation or conjuration of an evil and wicked spirit : or shall consult , covenant with , entertaine , imploy , feed , or reward any evil and wicked spirit , to or for any intent or purpose ; or take up any dead man , woman , or child , out of his , her , or their grave , or any other place where the dead body resteth ; or the skin , bone , or any other part of any dead person , to be imployed , or used in any manner of witchcraft , sorcery , charme , or inchantment , or shall use , practise , or exercise , any witchcraft , inchantment , charme , or sorcery , whereby any person shall be killed , destroyed , wasted , consumed , pined , or lamed , in his or her body , or any part thereof ; that then every such offender , or offenders , their ayders , abetters , and councellors , being of any of the said offences duly and lawfully convicted and attainted , shall suffer paines of death as a felon or felons , and shall lose the priviledge and benefit of clergy and sanctuary . and further , to the intent that all manner of practise , use or exercise of witchcraft , inchantment , charme , or sorcery , should be from henceforth utterly avoided , abolished , and taken away : be it enacted by the authority of this present parliament , that if any person or persons , shall from and after the said feast of st. michaell the archangell next comming , take upon him or them , by witchcraft , inchantment , charme , or sorcery , to tell or declare in what place any treasure of gold or silver should or might be found or had in the earth , or other secret places ; or where goods , or things lost , or stolne , should be found or become , or to the intent to provoke any person to unlawfull love , or whereby any cattell , or goods of any person shall be destroyed , wasted , or impaired ; or to hurt or destroy any person in his or her body , although the same be not effected and done , that then all and every such person or persons so offending , and being thereof lawfully convicted , shall for the said offence suffer imprisonment by the space of one whole year , without baile or maineprise ; and once in every quarter of the said year , shall in some market-town , upon the market day , or at any such time as any faire shall be kept there , stand openly upon the pillory by the space of hours , and there shall openly confesse his or her errour and offence . and if any person or persons , being once convicted of the same offences as is aforesaid , do eftsoones perpetrate and commit the like offence , that then every such offender , being of any the said offences the second time lawfully , and duly convicted , and attainted as is aforesaid , shall suffer paines of death as a felon , or felons , and shall lose the benefit and priviledge of clergy , and sanctuary , saving to the wife of such person as shall offend in any thing contrary to this act , her title of dower , and also to the heire and successor of every such person , his , or their titles of inheritance , succession , and other rights , as though no such attainder of the ancestor or predecessour had been made : provided alwayes , that if the offender in any the cases aforesaid , shall happen to be a peer of the realm , then his tryall therein , to be had by his peers , as it is used in cases of felony or treason , and not otherwise . the observations for the discovery of witches . now for asmuch as witches are the most cruell , revengefull , and bloody of all others : the justices of peace may not alwayes expect direct evidence , seeing all their works are workes of darkenesse , and no witnesses present with them to accuse them ; and therefore for their better discovery i thought good here to insert certaine observations , partly out of the book of discovery of the witches that were araigned at lancaster , anno dom . . before sir james altham , and sir edward bromeley judges of assise there : and partly out of mr. bernards guide to grand jury-men . . these witches have ordinarily a familiar , or spirit , which appeareth to them ; sometimes in one shape , sometimes in another , as in the shape of a man , woman , boy , dogge , cat , foale , fowle , hare , rat , toad , &c. and to these their spirits they give names , and they meet together to christen them . ber. . . . their said familiar hath some big or little teat upon their body , where he sucketh them ; and besides their sucking , the devil leaveth other markes upon their bodies , sometimes like a blew-spot , or red-spot , like a flea-biting , sometimes the flesh sunck in and hollow , all which for a time may be covered , yea taken away , but will come again to their old forme ; and these the devils markes be insensible , and being pricked wil not bleed ; and be often in their secret parts , and therefore require diligent and carefull search . ber. . . these first two are maine points to discover and convict these witches ; for they prove fully that those witches have a familiar , and made a league with the devil . ber. . so likewise if the suspected be proved to have been heard to call upon their spirit , or to talk to thē , or of them , or have offered them to others . so if they have been seen with their spirits , or seen to feed some thing secretly , these are proofes they have a familiar , &c. . they have often pictures of clay or wax ( like a man , &c. made of such as they would be witch ) found in their house , or which they roast , or bury in the earth , that as the picture consumes , so may the parties bewitched consume , . there are other presumptions against these witches ; as if they be given to usuall cursing , and bitter imprecations , and withall use threatnings to be revenged , and their imprecations , or some other mischief presently followeth , ber. . . . their implicite confession , as when any shall accuse them for hurting them or their cattell , they shall answer , you should have let me alone then , or , i have not hurt you as yet : these and the like speches are in manner of a confession of their power of hurting , ber. . . their diligent inquiry after the sick party ; or coming to visite him or her unsent for ; but especially being forbiden the house . . their apparition to the sick party in his fits . . the sick party in his fits naming the parties suspected , and where they be or have been , or what they do , if truly . . the common report of their neighbours , especially if the party suspected be of kin , or servant to , or familiar with a convicted witch . . the testimony of other witches , confessing their own witchcrafts , and witnessing against the suspected , and that they have spirits , or markes ; that they have been at their meetings : that they have told them what harme they have done , &c. ber. . . . if the dead body bleed upon the witches touching it . . the testimony of the person hurt , upon his death . . the examination and confession of the children ( able and fit to answer ) or servants of the witch ; especially concerning the first six observations of the party suspected ; her threatnings and cursings of the sick party ; her enquiring after the sick party ; her boasting or rejoycing at the sick parties trouble : also whether they have seen her call upon , speak to , or feed any spirit , or such like ; or have heard her foretell of this mishap , or speak of her power to hurt , or of her transportation to this or that place , &c. . their own voluntary confession ( which exceeds all other evidences ) of the hurt they have done , or of the giving of their soules to the devil , and of the spirits which they have , how many , how they call them , and how they came by them . . besides , upon the apprehension of any suspected , to search also their houses diligently for pictures of clay or wax , &c. haire cut , bones , powders , books of witchcrafts , charms ; and for pots or places where their spirits may be kept , the smell of which place will stink detestably . now to shew you further some signes to know whether the sick party be bewitched : . when a healthy body shall be suddenly taken , &c. without probable reason , or naturall cause appearing , &c. ber. . . when two or more are taken in the like strange fits in many things . . when the afflicted party in his fits doth tell truly many things what the witch or other persons absent are doing or saying , and the like . . when the parties shall do many things strangely , or speak many things to purpose , and yet out of their fits know not any thing thereof . . when there is a strength supernaturall , as that a strong man or two shall not be able to keep down a child , or weak person , upon a bed . . when the party doth vomit up pins , needles , nailes , coales , lead , straw , haire , or the like . . when the party shall see visibly some apparition , and shortly after some mischief shall befall him . ber. . note , for the better riddance of these witches , there must good care be had , as well in their examinations taken by the justices , as also in the drawing of their indictments , that the same be both set down directly in the materiall points , &c. as , that the witch ( or party suspected ) hath used invocation of some spirit . that they have consulted or covenanted with their spirit . that they imployed their spirit . that they fed or rewarded their spirit . that they have killed , or lamed , &c. some person , &c. and not to indict them generally for being witches , &c. the difference between conjuration , witchcraft , and inchantment , &c. is this : viz. conjurers and witches have personall conference with the devil or evill spirit , to effect their purpose , see sam. . . &c. the conjurers believe , that by certain terrible words they can raise the devil , and make him to tremble ; and by impaling themselves in a circle ( which as one saith cannot keep out a mouse ) they beleeve that they are therein insconsed and safe from the devil , whom they are about to raise ; and having raised the devil , they seem , by prayers , and invocation of gods powerfull names , to compell the devil to say or do what the conjurer commandeth him . the witch dealeth rather by a friendly and voluntary conference or agreement between him ( or her ) and the devil or familiar , to have his or her turn served , and in lieu thereof the witch giveth ( or offereth ) his or her soule , blood , or other gift unto the devil . also the conjurer compacteth for curiosity , to know secrets , or work miracles ; and the witch of meere malice to do mischiefe , and to be revenged . the inchanter , charmer , or sorcerer , these have no personall conference with the devil , but ( without any apparition ) work and perform things ( seemingly at the least ) by certain superstitious , and ceremoniall formes of words ( called charmes ) by them pronounced , or by medicines , herbs , or other things applied above the course of nature ; and by the devils help , and covenants made with him . of this last sort likewise are soothsayers or wisards , which divine and foretell things to come , by the flying , singing , or feeding of birds : and unto such questions as be demanded of them , they do answer by the devil ( or by his help ) sc. they do either answer by voyce , or else do set before their eyes in glasses , chrystall stones , or rings , the pictures or images of the persons or things sought for . i shall now adde the confession of mother lakeland of ipswich , who was arraigned and condemned for a witch , and suffered death by burning , at ipswich in suffolk , on tuesday the . of september , . the said mother lakeland hath been a professour of religion , a constant hearer of the word for these many years , and yet a witch ( as she confessed ) for the space of near twenty years . the devil came to her first between sleeping and waking , and spake to her in a hollow voyce , telling her , that if she would serve him she should want nothing . after often sollicitation she consented to him ; then he stroke his claw ( as she confessed ) into her hand , and with her blood wrote the covenants . ( now the subtilty of sathan is to be observed , in that he did not presse her to deny god and christ , as he useth to do to others ; because she was a professour , and might have lost all his hold by pressing her too far ) then he furnished her with three imps , two little dogs and a mole ( as she confessed ) which she imployed in her services : her husband she bewitched ( as she confessed ) whereby he lay in great misery for a time , and at last dyed . then she sent one of her dogs to one mr. lawrence in ipswich , to torment him and take away his life : she seat one of them also to his child , to torment it , and take away the life of it , which was done upon them both : and all this ( as she co●●●●●ed ) was , because he asked her for . . that she owed him , and for no other cause . she further confessed , that she sent her mole to a maid of one mrs. jenings in ipswich , to torment her and take away her life , which was done accordingly : and this for no other cause , but for that the said maid would not lend her a needle that she desired to borrow of her , and was earnest with her for a shilling that she owed the said maid . then she further confessed , she sent one of her imps to one mr. beale in ipswich , who had formerly been a sutor to her grand-child ; and because he would not have her , she sent and burned a new ship ( that had never been at sea ) that he was to go master of ; and sent also to torment him and take away his life ; but he is yet living , but in very great misery , and as it is verily conceived by the doctors and chirurgions that have him in hand , that he consumes and rots , and that halfe of his body is rotten upon him as he is living . severall other things she did , for all which she was by law condemned to die , and in particular to be burned to death , because she was the death of her husband , as she confessed ; which death she suffered accordingly . but since her death there is one thing that is very remarkable , and to be taken notice of : that upon the very day that she was burned , a bunch of flesh , something after the form of a dog , that grew upon the thigh of the said mr. beale , ever since the time that she first sent her imp to him , being very hard , but could never be made to break by all the means that could be used ; brake of it self , without any means using : and another sore , that at the same time she first sent her imp to him , rose upon the side of his belly , in the form of a fistula , which ran , and could not be healed by all the means that could be used , presently also began to heale , and there is great hopes that he will suddenly recover again , for his sores heale apace , and he doth recover his strength . he was in this misery for the space of a yeare and halfe , and was forced to go with his head and his knees together , his misery was so great . finis . the tryal of rowland walters, dearing bradshaw, and ambrose cave, for murthering of sir charles pymm, bart., at the sessions held at the old-bailey on friday the first day of june, before the right honourable sir john shorter kt. lord mayor of the city of london and sir bartholomew shoares kt. recorder of the same city, together with others his majesties justices of the peace for the city of london, and county of middlesex. walters, rowland, defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of rowland walters, dearing bradshaw, and ambrose cave, for murthering of sir charles pymm, bart., at the sessions held at the old-bailey on friday the first day of june, before the right honourable sir john shorter kt. lord mayor of the city of london and sir bartholomew shoares kt. recorder of the same city, together with others his majesties justices of the peace for the city of london, and county of middlesex. walters, rowland, defendant. bradshaw, dearing, defendant. cave, ambrose, defendant. p. printed for george croom, [london : ] caption title. in double columns. reproduction of original in bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng pymm, charles, -- sir, d. . trials -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - jonathan blaney sampled and proofread - jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of rowland walters , gent. dearing bradshaw , gent. and ambrose cave , gent. ( for murthering of sir charles pymm , bar t. ) at the sessions held at the old-bailey , on friday the first day of june , . before the right honourable sir john shorter kt. lord mayor of the city of london , and sir bartholomew shoares kt. recorder of the same city , together with others his majesties justices of the peace for the city of london , and county of middlesex . clerk. cryer , make proclamation . cryer . o yes , o yes , o yes . clerk. keeper of newgate , bring the prisoners to the bar. which was done . clerk. you the prisoners at the bar , those men whom you shall hear called , and personally appear , are to try between our sovereign lord the king , and you who are arraigned , upon your several lives and death , if you shall except against any one of them , you must speak before they be sworn . clerk. cryer , call henry dyer . the iurors sworn are as followeth . henry dyer giles baggs matthew jerman timo. waldoe richard chase samuel burgess william villers john frith john hill obadiah hickman john read francis willis . which were all sworn . clerk. cryer , count these twelve good men and true. clerk. cryer , make proclamation . which was done . clerk. you gentlemen of the jury , look upon the prisoners at the bar , and hearken to their charge , they stand indicted by the names of rowland walters , dearing bradshaw , and ambrose cave , gent. for that they , not having the fear of god before their eyes , but being instigated and seduced by the devil and their own wicked hearts , on the fourth day of may , in the fourth year of the reign of our sovereign lord king james the second , in the parish of st. nicholas cole-abby , in and upon sir charles pymm , bar. felloniously , willfully , and of their malice before thought , did make an assault ; and that he the said rowland walters , having then and there in his right hand , a certain rapier made of iron and steel , of the value of about s. and thrust him the said sir charles pymm in and upon the right side of him the said sir charles pymm , a little above the right pap , did strike and thrust as aforesaid , giving him the said sir charles pymm , a little above the right pap , one mortal wound of the bredth of one inch , of the depth of ten inches ; and that they the said dearing , bradshaw , and ambrose cave , were present , aiding , abetting , and assisting him the said rowland walters in the perpetration of the said wilful murther of him the said sir charles pymm ; so that they three , the prisoners at the bar , with malice fore-thought , did intentionally kill and destroy , and willfully murther him the said sir charles pymm , against the peace of our sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute of that case made and provided . upon this indictment they have been arraigned , and have hereunto pleaded not guilty , and for their tryal , have put themselves upon god and their country , which country you are . your business is to enquire , whether they or either of them committed this fellony and murther as aforesaid , if you find them or either of them guilty of the said wilful murther , you are to enquire what goods and chattle they or either of them had at the time of the committing of the said willful murther ; but if you find them not guilty , you are to say so ; and hear your evidence . mr. walters . my lord , i humbly desire these gentlemen may be tried before me . court. that cannot be , mr. walters , because you are all three put into one indictment . council for the king. my lords , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am here retained a council for the king , against the prisoners at the bar , who all three stand indicted for the murther of sir charles pymm baronet , in the parish of st. nicholas cole-abby , thrusting him through the body near the right pap , giving him a mortal wound , of which he then and there instantly died . the other two prisoners stand indicted for aiding , abetting , and assisting him the said walters in the said murther . another council for the king. my lords , this murther fell out on the fourth day of may last after this manner , viz. the said sir charles pymm , one mr. mirriday , and mr. neale , and sir thomas middleton and others , dined at the swan tavern upon fish-street-hill ; after they were come into the house , they went up stairs , after which the prisoners at the bar came into the house , and took another room to dine of beef and other things . but one of sir charles's company desired to have a plate of it ; upon which mr. clowdsley told them some gentlemen had bespoke it for dinner , but he said he would get them a plate of it , which was sent up , and ordered to be reckoned into mr. walters the prisoners bill ; after dinner they drank their healths , and returned them thanks for their beef ; and towards the evening sir charles pymm and his friends came down stairs , and met the prisoners at the bottom , and mr. cave asked them how they liked the beef that was sent up ; upon which one in the company answered , and told them , they did not send it , for they had paid for it ; upon which farther words arose , and mr. bradshaw drew his sword and fell upon sir charles pymm , but he got out into the streets , after which mr. walters came forth , and plucked sir charles pymm by the arms , and forced him to fight with him , saying , here is my hand , and here is my sword ; and as soon as he was in the street , he received this mortal wound , and so fell down dead ; and after this mr. walters took him by the nape of the neck , and dashed his head upon the ground , and cried out , god damm you , you are dead ; and said farther , let the sword alone in his body . my lords this shall be proved to be done , without any manner of provocation ; and if so , i hope your lordships will find him guilty of willful murther . cryer . call mr. mirriday , mr. neale , mr. palms , and mr. bridges . who were sworn . mr. mirriday . my lord , on the fourth day of may last , on a friday , sir charles pymm , my self , and these gentlemen here in court , came to dine at the swan tavern in old fish-street , we asked for meat , and mr. clowdsley , the man of the house , told us , we might have fish , for he had no meat , but what was bespoke by mr. walters and his company ; we desired him to help us to a plate of it if it might be got , which we had brought up stairs ; after dinner we drank the gentlemens health that sent it , and returned them thanks for it : a while after sir thomas middleton went away , and about an hour after that , or thereabouts , sir charles pymm and the rest of us came down to go away , and when we were in the entry , mr. cave met us , and asked sir charles how he liked the beef that was sent up , who answered , we did not know you sent it , for we have paid for it ; then the boy that kept the bar told us , that he did not reckon it in the bill ; upon which mr. cave seemed to take it ill . but my lord , i cannot be positive whether mr. bradshaw and mr. palms were at any words . then i took mr. cave to one side into the entry , and he thought that i had a mind to fight him , but i did what i could to make an end of the quarrel . upon which the court highly commended mr. mirriday . court. this was in the entry ; but where was sir charles pymm ? mr. mirriday . he was then in the entry . court. where was mr. walters ? mr. mirriday . he was at the door my lord , but i cannot swear positively to any particular passage , as to the murther , but mr. walters called sir charles pymm rogue , and gave him very ill words , and i saw him take him by the neck , and forced his head downwards , and said , god damm him he is dead , to the best of my remembrance my lord. then i took sir charles up in my arms , and pulled the sword out of his body , and then mr. walters said god damm him , let it stay in his guts , or in his body , or words to this effect . court. was mr. cave or bradshaw at the place where sir charles fell ? mr. mirriday . no my lord , they were in the entry scuffling there . court. what came of mr. walters afterwards ? mr. mirriday . my lord , he stayed a little till i had pulled the sword out of his body , then he run away . court. did they draw their swords in the entry ? mr. mirriday . i cannot tell that . court. did you see them draw their swords ? mr. mirriday . i cannot say sir charles pymm's sword was drawn , but i saw mr. walters draw his sword in the street . court. do you know whether mr. walters was wounded or no ? mr. mirriday . i do not know that , for i did not see the wound given . court. mr. walters , will you ask him any questions ? mr. walters . yes my lord : mr. mirriday , what did you say to sir charles pymm in the fish-mongers shop ? did you not say , go and fight him , and i will be your second ? mr. mirriday . my lord , i do not remember one word of that . court. mr. mirriday , were you in any fish-mongers shop ? mr. mirriday . yes , my lord , i was there , but i do not remember one word between mr. walters and sir charles , and as i hope for salvation i said no such thing , and that 's all i have to say . clerk. cryer , call mr. neale . mr. neale . my lord , i went and met with these gentlemen that dined with us at the aforesaid tavern , and we had fish , and two beef marrow bones , and a plate of beef for dinner ; and when we came down to go away , these gentlemen met us , and said , god damm you ; how did you like the beef ? which raised a quarrel amongst us , but immediately after i thought it was all over , i saw mr. walters run sir charles pymm thorough . court. was his sword drawn ? neale . yes , both of their swords were drawn . court. where was mr. bradshaw ? neale . i cannot tell where he was directly : but my lord , i heard sir charles pymm say nothing to mr. walters . clerk. cryer , call mr. palms . palms . my lord , after the reckoning was paid , we came down stairs and called for a coach , and because it rained there was none to be had ; and these gentlemen followed us into the entry , and so words to the same purpose as aforesaid passed between them ; after which i met mr. bradshaw , and we fell out in the fish-mongers shop . court. who began ? palms . i know not , i cannot remember that . court. were you not in drink ? palms . my lord , we drank nine or ten bottles among six of us ; after which mr. bradshaw and i drew our swords , and then mr. mirriday came and took him away from me into the entry , and in the mean time while we were talking in the entry , the business was done . court. were your swords put up again ? palms . i had put up mine . council for the king. did you take notice of what passed between mr. walters and sir charles pymm ? palmes . i heard nothing of high words . court. yes , yes , it was all about the beef . clerk. cryer , call for mr. presland the bar-keeper . presland . my lord , i made the bill for the reckoning . court. did you put the beef into the bill ? presland . no , i did not , when they came down stairs , the coach was fetched for them , viz. for sir charles pymm and his company , and the reckoning was paid ; when sir charles pymm and the rest of his company came down into the entry , mr. walters came out of his room , &c. and i heard them argue about their dinner , and they came to me , and asked me what was to pay for beef , and i told them nothing . court. did you see the man killed ? presland , my lord , i did not see him killed , not i. court , who was it that quarrelled with the coachman ? presland , my lord , mr. neale quarrelled with the coachman about his staying , the coach-man refused him , because his horses were hot . clerk , cryer , call mr. brummidge . brummidge . my lord , between eleven and twelve a clock in the morning on the th . of may last , sir charles pymm came to mr. cloudsley's door in a coach , and asked him what he might have for dinner , who told him that he might have a mullet and some smelts , and i sold a mullet to mr. chowdsley , so sir charles went to the exchange , and i saw no more of him till i saw him kill'd . while i was in the house , came in one mr. allen and others to enquire for sir charles pymm , and mr. cloudsley told them that he had bespoke a dinner and was gone to the exchange , viz. a mullet and some smelts , but one of the gentlemen desired a bit of the beaf that was at the fire , so mr. cloudsley said he would get a plate for him ; so i went to the door and the coach-man came , and his horses being hot , he desired to go away because it rained , but mr. neale put his foot-boy into the coach , and the coach-man after pull'd his boy out of the coach and drove away ; and after that , i saw mr. cave and others come to the door and justled each other into the next shop and were at very high words , and so afterwards they went into the entry again , and sir charles pymm and mr. walters came , without the door , the latter of which said , here is my hand , and here is my sword ; but they returned both in again into the tavern , and within two minutes came out again , and i saw mr. walters thrust sir charles pymm through his back . court. did you see him do any thing to him after he was down ? brummidge . no my lord , i did not . court. did you not say that walters went over the kennel and drew his sword and stood upon his guard , and then you say that you saw sir charles pymm come out with his sword drawn ; was his sword drawn ? brummidge . i did not see him draw it , but it was drawn . court. where did he receive his wound ? brummidge . within a foot of the kennel ; i was but a little way off , but i did not see him beat his head against the ground . clerk. cryer , call mr. fletcher . fletcher . my lord , on friday in the evening on the th . of may , i was going by the tavern door about seven a clock at night , and i heard a noise and a talking of going to the other end of the town to be merry , and turning my self back to hearken further , i saw mr. walters come out of the door and drew his sword , and sir charles pymm came out and drew his sword , and presently mr. walter 's sword was through sir charles pymm's body almost a foot , and he fell down crinkling immediately , and when he was down , i saw mr. walters hit him in the kennel , and took him by the nape of the neck , and after cryed , god damn him , let the sword stick in his body ; and afterwards i saw mr. mirriday pull the sword out of his body . court. did you see mr. bradshaw there when sir charles fell ? fletcher . no my lord , i saw none there but mr. walters and sir charles , they were out of doors , and the rest were in the entry . mary white and sarah webb were called , who could give little or no evidence as to matter of fact , as concerning the death of sir charles , and being timorous , could not see what they might have seen , therefore think fit their depositions at large should be omitted . clerk. cryer , call mr. allen. allen. i know but very little of the matter , but that there was a plate of beef sent up to us , but we knew not from whence it came , till afterwards the drawer brought us word that the gentlemen below had sent it up , after which we drank their healths and returned them thanks for it after which i went to the coffee-house hard by , and sat about half an hour , and presently heard a cry of murther , and i came down and saw sir charles pymm lying with a wound in his body , and another in his head , but i did not know who it was , not then ; but i asked who did this business , and exhorted the people to take them as soon as they could . court. i think you said that mr. bradshaw's sword was drawn . allen. yes , it was , but i believe that he did not know that sir charles pymm was killed . mrs. sheepwash was called , but could depose nothing material . court. mr. walters , you have been here indicted together with mr. bradshaw and mr. cave . for the murther of sir charles pymm kt. and baronet , you have heard what charge hath been laid against you , which hath been a very strong , one and now it behoves you to make your defence as well as you ean . mr. walters . my lord , i was no way the occasion of the quarrel ; when i came thither , i asked for some meat , and having not eaten all the day before , we had a piece of beaf , of which sir charles pymm and his company had some , who afterwards drank our healths as i was informed . for my part my lord , i never saw the gentleman before in my days : my l. i am very sorry it should be my misfortune to kill him in the quarrel . sir charles pymm asked me saying , god damn you sir , what i had to do to meddle ; i went presently my lord to a fish-mongers where mr. mirriday was , and sir charles pymm came , and mr. mirriday said to him , sir charles damn you sir , go and fight him , and i will be your second , and presently they came upon me and i drew my sword in my own defence , and he run me eight inches into the thigh , and at the same pass , i had the misfortune my lord , to run him into the body . court. would you ask mr. mirriday any question ? walters . yes my lord. mr. mirriday , did you see me strike sir charles's head upon the ground ? mirriday . no sir , i did not see that , neither did i say any fuce thing in the fish-mongers shop , as to bid sir charles fight you . clerk. cryer , call matthew perin . perin . my lord , all that i saw of the business was , that when the coach-man was called to the door , mr. neale came and threatned him if he did not stay ; then mr. cave and mr. bradshaw was in the entry , and i heard them discourse about beef , and some of them said , you give us beef and make us pay for it , and there was answer made they were rascals that said so , for they did not . there was one of the gentlemen in our shop hearing of it , said , let me come to him , i will fight him . court. do you know the man ? perin . no , i do not know who it was . mr. walters . i was wounded at the same time my lord. court. that is admitted of . mr. walters , let him be asked whether i beat the head against the ground . perin , no , my lord , i did not see him do that . court. he had a wound , the question is , how he came to it , whether he might not fall upon it himself , it was a slanting wound . mr. walters , pray , my lord , let sir charles's sword be seen all blood , but that gave no satisfaction on either side . court. mr. bradshaw , what have you to say for your self ? mr. bradshaw , my lord , i was there , but i know nothing of the death of sir charles pymm , nor how he came by it , there was some words arose amongst us , and i desired them to cease , for fear a further quarrel should ensue upon it . court. mr. cave , what have you to say ? mr. cave , i know no more of the matter than this gentleman saith : i saw not sir charles pymm killed . clerk , cryer , make proclamation . cryer , all people are commanded to keep silence upon pain of imprisonment . then mr. baron jenner summed up the evidence as followeth . bar. jen. gent. of the jury , you have three persons , indicted viz. mr. walters , mr. bradshaw and mr. cave , for murthering sir charles pymm baronet , and have had several witnesses called for the king against the prisoners at the bar , the first to which was mr. mirriday , and he gives you this account , and it is all that each and every one gives , and it agrees on all sides ; and he tells you , that all those gentlemen were to dine at mr. cloudsleys , at the swan tavern in old fish-street ; and that they were there at dinner it is very plainly proved . and being there , it seems that some of those gentlemen had bespoke a fish dinner , some flesh , and had some , viz. a plate of beef ; and he tells you also that when dinner was over , some words did arise concerning the reckoning , and that one of the companies were got down stairs in the entry , where a further quarrel did arise . mr. merriday tells you further , that mr. bradshaw and he quarrelled , so there was a scufflie in the entry ; after which things were pretty well quieted there , in comes mr. walters and sir charles pymm , and while mr. mirriday was securing the first quarrel , they , viz. sir charles pymm and mr. walters were got out at the door , and sir charles was stooping down , and mr. walters was pushing upon his neck and throwing him down . so said mr. mirriday , and when he went to take the sword out of his body he saw him a dying man. the next evidence was mr. neale , and he observes to you , that one of the gentlemen did say , that the quarrel was not intended against them ; and he gives an account of the story , how that it was about the beef ; how that sir charles was run through by walters , but did not see him knock his head against the ground . mr. palmer gives the like account , and saith ; that whilest they were a scuffling in the entry , sir charles was kill'd at the door . the next evidence is the drawer , who tells you of a squabble that mr. neale had with the coach-man at the door ; and how that there was left four of the gentlemen behind , and that the coach-man was unwilling to wait because it rained , his horses being hot , they might catch cold ; whereupon he put his foot-boy into the coach , and threatned the coach-man if he went away : this was before they fell out about the meat . the next evidence was one brummidge the fishmonger , he gives the same account , how that a quarrel was amongst them , and how that mr. walters was on one side of the kennel , and sir charles pymm on the other side , and there they stood with their swords drawn , and as soon as they came to close they wounded each other , and sir charles pymm was killed , but he did not see his head knock'd against the ground . comes fletcher my lord mayor's officer , and he tells you that he was going by the door home into bread-street , and he sees a man that was wounded stooping down ; and he swears that mr. walters took him by the nape of his neck , and knock'd his head against the ground , and heard him swear , let the sword stick in him . sarah web and another woman speaks it to be in the like manner ; and one of them talks of mr. walter 's pulling sir charles pymm out of the entry before he would come out . last of all gentlemen , here was mr. allen , one of their company , who went away to the coffee-house , and hearing murther cryed out , he came and found sir charles pymm kill'd and quite dead . this , gentlemen , is the evidence that you have heard as near as i can give it you . now for the prisoner mr. walters , he would have you believe , as if sir charles had struck him before he drew his sword , but he hath not proved it : likewise speaks of mr. fletcher , but he doth not remember that sir charles pymm struck him before he drew : but so it was , gentlemen , that was a quarrel in which that honourable and worthy gentleman , sir charles pymm , lost his life . now for mr. bradshaw , he confesseth that there was a quarrel , but he saith that he did not know when or how sir charles pymm was killed ; and for mr. cave , i do not find any thing objected against him , nor either of them . now , gentlemen , i must tell you what the law is in this case : first of all to begin with mr. walters , so as it fairs with mr. walters , so you may be guided to deal with the other two : now it hath not been made appear by any of the evidence that you have heard , that there was any premeditated malice between them , for they were never in company before , and knew not each other , so that there could be no manner of malice from him in particular . the next step , gentlemen , is , here is nothing that can impute a general malice upon mr. walters , for if i had no design to kill a man , and kill another with whom i do not quarrel , that cannot be any premeditated malice ; but i rather think that there was a little heat of wine amongst them : and this whole action was carried on by nothing else but by a hot and sudden frolick , and i am very sorry that it should fall upon such a worthy gentleman as he was : and if so that there was no malice premeditated , then he can be found guilty of nothing but manslaughter ; and as for the other two , they must be totally acquitted : if i have erred in the summing up of these evidences , or mistaken my self in any point , here are my brothers to help me . then the gentlemen of the jury withdrew for about the space of half an hour , and returned into court : upon a scruple of conscience , one amongst them spoke to the court as followeth . jury . my lord , we are not satisfied in our consciences concerning the death of sir charles pymm , we find in it malice fore thought , because after he had run the sword through his body , he was not satisfied with that , but must knock his head against the ground : so we do take it , that the said sir charles pymm was maliciously murthered . mr. justice allibone . gentlemen of the jury , i shall endeavour to direct you in this case , and tell you what the law saith in it , that it cannot reach mans life , where no propense malice is proved ; that there is none proved , appears very plain to me , and i hope also to you , because it hath been proved that those gentlemen , viz. the prisoners at the bar , and the deceased , had never been in company before . gentlemen , you are upon your oaths to serve the king as jury-men , and i , as a judge , am upon my oath to try the cause as well on the behalf of the living as the dead : so that upon the whole matter , gentlemen , this can be called nothing else but a storm , an ungoverned storm that such men are subject to ; so that it doth not reach precedent malice but subsequent passion , which sad passion was continued to that height , that sir charles pymm in the midst of it lost his life . then the jury went out again for about a quarter of an hour , and returning brought mr. walters in guilty of manslaughter , but the other two were acquitted . god save the king . with allowance . c. n. june : . london , printed by george croom , at the blue-ball in thames-street , near baynard's castle , . the whole triall of mr. christopher love, before a pretended high court of justice in westminster hall containing the charge of high treason against him ... with the relation of his suffering and his speech and prayer at his death on tower-hill / published by john farthing, citizen of london, who took the triall in the said court in short-writing for mr. love, and at his own request ; to which is added the tragedy of his triall and death in very elegant verses / by the acute author of iter boreale. love, christopher, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the whole triall of mr. christopher love, before a pretended high court of justice in westminster hall containing the charge of high treason against him ... with the relation of his suffering and his speech and prayer at his death on tower-hill / published by john farthing, citizen of london, who took the triall in the said court in short-writing for mr. love, and at his own request ; to which is added the tragedy of his triall and death in very elegant verses / by the acute author of iter boreale. love, christopher, - . wild, robert, - . tragedy of mr. christopher love. [ ], +, + p. [s.n.], london : . imperfect: all after p. of the first part lacking ; only p. - remain of pt. ; best copy available for photographing. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng love, christopher, - . trials (treason) -- england. great britain -- history -- commonwealth and protectorate, - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the whole triall of mr christopher love. before a pretended high court of justice in westminster-hall . containing the charge of high treason against him . debates between the court and him before his pleading to the charge . the several depositions of the witnesses . mr. loves defence to the charge and evidence . mr. serjeant hales ( a learned counsell ) his plea against the charge and evidence . and the sentence . with the relation of his suffering , and his speech and prayer at his death upon the scaffold on tower-hill . published by john farthing citizen of london , who took the triall in the said court in short-writing for mr. love , and at his own request . to which is added , the tragedy of his triall and death in very elegant verses by the acute author of iter boreale . london , printed in the year , . to the reader . reader , thou hast here a true and impartiall account of the proceedings of the high court of justice ( so called ) against that faithfull servant and minister of christ m. christopher love , a man of so much and such known wor●h while he lived , and of so good a name and memory now dead , that as any thing i can say of him would signifie little , so i shall be wholy silent in it : what and how extreme the proceedings of the court were against him , will by this that follows sufficiently appear , especially if thou dost but considerately peruse m. loves defence , and the plea of that honourable gentleman , and his then faithfull counsell m. serjeant hales , against both the charge and evidence . this triall was formerly printed , but not till now made thus publick , the times not bearing it . the court took a severe course to have prevented the publishing of it , as being ( it seems ) conscious to themselves of their own foul and false play therein ; and did therefore every day commit my very notes to the tower , ( though they did not prove to be under such strict keeping , but that i had the liberty of giving them severall visits ) not that i think every one of the court should fall under the same consideration , for there were divers of them ( as i am certainly informed ▪ ) that would not at all have appeared in it , but upon the earnest solicitation of some nearly related to m. love , and that only in order ( if it could have been ) to the saving of his life . my aim in now publishing this triall , is not that it should prove an injury to or an irritation of any , but partly a little to revive the memory of that now blessed servant of god ( though i know the righteous shall be had in everlasting remembrance ) and partly that the world may be somewhat acquainted with the manner of proceedings of our high courts of justice , especially when they have been erected ( as it is too too apparent ours have been ) only to feed the malice , and serve the corrupt and unjust interests , of ambitious and merciless men . j. f. the trial of master love before the high court of justice in westminster hall. june . . the court being set and called over , the lieutenant of the tower was commanded to bring forth his prisoner ; and master love was brought to the bar. after the reading of divers late acts of parliament concerning treason , master prideaux , the atturney generall for the common-wealth spake as followeth : attur . gen. my lord , you have heard severall acts of parliament read , and the offences therein mentioned . my lord , i have here a charge against mr. love , the prisoner at the bar , and i humbly desire that it may be read likewise ; and you may please to take his reply to it , whether by confession or otherwise . the clerk is commanded to reade the charge . the clerk. a charge of high treason , and other high crimes and offences , exhibited to the high court of justice by edmond prideaux , atturney generall for the commonwealth of england , for and on the behalf of the keepers of the liberties of england , by authority of parliament , against christopher love late of london clerk , by him preferred and commenced against the said christopher love. that is to say , that he the said christopher love , as a false traytor and enemy of this common-wealth and free state of england ; and out of a trayterous and wicked designe , to stir up a new and bloody war , and to raise insurrections , seditions , and rebellions within this nation , did in severall daies and times ; that is to say , in the yeers of our lord , , , . at london , and at divers other places within this common-wealth of england , and elsewhere , ( together with william drake late of london mercer , henry jermin late of london esquire , henry piercy late of london esquire , john gibbons late of london gentleman , edward massey late of london esquire , richard graves late of london esquire , sylas titus late of london gentleman , james bunce late of london alderman , and other their accomplices ( yet unknown ) traiterously and maliciously combine , confederate , and complot , contrive and endeavour to stir and raise up forces against the present government of this nation , since the same hath been setled in a common-wealth and free state without a king and house of lords , and for the subversion and alteration of the same . and the better to carry on and accomplish their said traiterous and wicked designe , he the said christopher love , together with the said william drake , henry jermin , henry piercy , richard graves , edward massey , john gibbons , sylas titus , james bunce , and others ( since the death of charls stewart , late king of england , who for his notorious treasons , and other tyrannies and murders by him committed in the late unnatural and cruel war , was , by authority derived from parliament , justly condemned to death , and executed ) several daies and times in the respective years aforesaid , at london aforesaid , and at sundry other places of this common-wealth , and since this nation was setled in the way of a common-wealth or free state , as aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously declare , publish , and promote charles stewart , the eldest son of the late king of england , to be king of england ( meaning this common-wealth ) without the consent of the people in parliament , first had and signified by authority and ordinances to that purpose . and further , to carry on and accomplish their said traiterous and wicked designe , he the said christopher love , on severall daies and times in the respective yeers aforesaid , at london aforesaid , and in divers other places within this common-wealth of england , and elsewhere , together with the said william drake , henry jermin , henry piercy , richard graves , edward massey , john gibbons , sylas titus , james bunch , and other their accomplices , as aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously invite , aid , and assist the scots , being forraigners and strangers , to invade this common-wealth of england , and adhered to the forces of the enemy raised against the parliament and common-wealth aforesaid , and keepers of the liberties of england aforesaid . and further , to carry on and accomplish the said traiterous and wicked design , he the said christopher love divers daies and times between the twenty ninth day of march , , and the first day of june , . at london and other places , as aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously give , hold , use and maintain correspondence and intelligence , by letters , messages , instructions , and other waies prejudiciall to this common-wealth , with the said charles stewart , son of the late king , and with the late queen his mother , and with the said henry jermin , henry piercy , and divers other persons being of councell and abiding with charls stewart . and further , to carry on and accomplish the said traiterous and wicked design , he the said christopher love severall daies and times in the respective yeers aforesaid , at london aforesaid , and divers places within this common-wealth of england and elsewhere , as aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously use , hold , and maintain correspondence and intelligence with divers persons of the scotish nation ; that is to say , with the earls of argile , lowden , lothian , and belcharris , and with one bayley gentleman , and divers other persons of the scotish and other nations , whom he the said christopher love well knew to adhere to the said scotish nation in this war against the parliament and common-wealth of england . and further , he the said christopher love , within the times , and at the places before mentioned , did traiterously and maliciously abet , assist , countenance and incourage both the scotish nation , and divers other persons adhering to them in this war against the parliament ; and did send and convey , or cause to be sent and conveyed , monies , arms , ammunition , and other supplies , to scotland and other places , and to the said titus , massey , and others in confederacy against this nation , without speciall leave and license from the parliament of england or councell of state , or the captain generall of the parliaments forces . and further , to carry on and accomplish the said traiterous and wicked practice and designe , he the said christopher love , within the times , and at the places before mentioned , did traiterously and voluntarily relieve the said sylas titus , edward massey , col. bamfield , and one mason late of london gentleman , and one sterks late of london gentleman , who then were , and yet are under the power of the scotish nation , and in arms against the parliament and common-wealth of england , with monies , arms , and ammunition . all which treasons , and traiterous and wicked practices and designs of him the said christopher love , were and are to the apparent hazard of the publick peace of this common-wealth and free state , parliament and people of england , and to the manifest breach , contempt , and violation of the laws of the land , and contrary to the form of divers statutes and acts of parliament in such case made and provided . and master atturney generall ( by protestation , saving to himself in the behalf of the keepers of the liberties of england , to exhibite any other charge against the said christopher love , and to reply to the answer he shall make to the premises ) doth for the said treasons , on the behalf of the keepers of the liberties of england , impeach the said christopher love as a traytor and publick enemy to this common-wealth and free state of england ; and doth pray , that he may be put to answer all and singular the premises , that such proceedings , triall , examination , judgement , and execution may be thereupon had against him , as shall be agreeable to justice . the clerk. christopher love , you stand charged on the behalf of the keepers of the liberties of england , by authority of parliament , of high treason , and other high crimes and offences against the parliament and people of england ; this high court therefore requires you to give a positive and direct answer , whether you are guilty or not guilty of the crimes and treasons laid to your charge . master love. my lord , before i plead , i humbly crave leave to expresse my self in a few words to this court , and afterwards to make humble proposals of what i desire in order to this trial. in the first place , being i am this day called to a great and weighty work , in the entrance to it i do earnestly beg the prayers of all them that have an interest in god , that he would carry me through this whole triall with such gravity , godlinesse , and meeknesse of wisdome , as becomes a professor and preacher of the gospell ; and that he would keep me in this houre of temptation , rather from sin then from suffering . sir , i am this day made a spectacle to god , angels , and men , singled out from among my brethren to be the object of some mens indignation and insultation . by my appearing in this place , i am made a grief to many that are godly , and a laughing stock to the wicked . — here he was interupted by the court . lord president of the court. mr. love. how long time do you intend to take up ? mr. love. i will be brief ; sir. l. pres . we have been calling upon god to direct us and you , and all good people , that justice may be done ; and you would glorifie god rather then man , if you would confesse , knowing what was done in that great sin of achan ; there was great pains taken , and the whole nation was fain to be examined , and their houses divided , and at last when it came to achan , you know what joshua said to him , confesse and tell the truth , and glorifie god ; this is that , that if you respect god before man , you may now clear your self , and set forth his glory upon earth ; and your next work is to plead guilty or not guilty . for we see that those wayes you go , would take up time , and we have taken all into our thoughts before hand . mr. love. i do not desire to protract time , but i would not lie under a prejudice . l. pres . when you go out of your way , we must help you ; and know , if any be under a prejudice here , their prejudging is rather in mercy , then in prejudice to you . mr. love. i hope you will not be more severe to a minister , then you were to lieut. col. john lilburn . when you were at the court at guild-hall , at the trial of lilburne , you gave him the liberty of two houres to plead before he pleaded guilty or not guilty . l. pres . to a minister , you say well ; but i tell you , we do more to a christian then to a minister ; and we are all christians , and your ministry is but an office ; and therefore what mr. lilburne had , it was the favour of the court then ; but time is spent , and pray do not you follow that now . m. love. whereas your lordship is pleased to urge the case of achan to me , if my case were the same as achans was , i should do as achan did , confesse and give glory to god ; but achans was a peculiar and extraordinary case , and therefore i pray it may not be laid to me . god was the informer and discoverer , and god did by lot discover achan to be the man. l. pres . will you plead ? m. love. i desire liberty to speak a word . i had not diverted my discourse , but upon your lordships words . att. gen. my lord , i hope he will be so ingenuous , as not to be long . l. pr. take this in your way , mr. love , god is as present here , as he was in the case of achan . go on . mr. love. sir , by my appearing in this place , i am made a grief to many that are godly , and a laughing stock to the wicked , and a gazing stock to all ; yet , blessed be god , not a terrour to my self . sir , i am as jeremiah was , born a man of strife and contention : not actively , i strive and contend with none : but passively , many strive and contend with me ; yet i trust god will make me , as he did jeremiah , an iron pillar and brazen wall against those that do oppose me , that i shall not be dismayed at ther faces , lest i be confounded before them . strong suggestions against me are generally received , and great opposition strongly maintained , and in this condition no man dares stand by me ; but god stands by me and strengthens me . — here he was interupted again . l. pres . sir , come to the businesse in hand . m. love. i beseech you , sir , spare me : you gave mr. lilburne more time . att. gen. ly lord , when he shall come with such speeches , that are nothing to the businesse in hand ! my lord , he instances in lilburns case ; you know that debate , it was in relation to a narration . m. love. sir , it was the narration of his doings and sufferings , that he might not be misrepresented to the court. att. gen. you know you are a minister ; and if it be your purpose to spin out time , to think to ingratiate your self to the people , it will not do . my lord , this is a court of justice that proceeds according to the established laws , and laws that have been read to him . mr. love is a minister , and had he applied himself to god as he might have done , he need not have been brought hither ; if he had not gone that way he did . but my lord , i desire he may go on to the charge , and give his answer to it . my lord , before we have done , we shall have many occasions of discourse between him and i. m. love. i beseech your lordship allow me that favour that you allow to every one you try , that i may not stand under misrepresentations to you , who are my judges . l. pres . are not we of as much credit as you ? and are not we judged ministers as well as you , and more then you ? and i tell you , that which you require , we have already done , and wish you as much happinesse as to our brother ; and for you to spend time about that which is nothing to the businesse , it must not be suffered . att. gen. my lord , let the constant known laws of the common-wealth of england be observed , as well as other laws , of which that is one , that he ought not to speak any thing , till he hath pleaded guilty or not guilty . my lord , i desire to take my course . i do not make speeches against him , to misrepresent him to you , otherwise then he stands charged ; and my lord , i would not have him to cleer himself till he come to the triall , whether he be not accused justly . it is not my nature , but the duty of my place ; and the duty of his place , as a prisoner , is to plead , and to put himself upon triall ; that being done , there will be occasion enough for him to plead his own innocency . my lord , to take up two hours time in talking of that which is not materiall , should not be . m. love. i insist upon that liberty that mr. lilburne had . l. pres . he did plead first . m. love. no my lord , he did not plead first ; and i have much to move before i plead . l. pres . you can say nothing till you plead . m. love. my lord , i desire not much time . att. gen. my lord , let the time now insisted on be what time it will , mr. love will have time to speak for himself , and it is so far from being to the point , that it is trifling ; and this rather makes him seem guilty , then it gives him any acquittance . m. love. prove me guilty first sir. sir , do not prejudge me . then command was given to reade his arraignment . the clerk. christopher love , you stand charged on the behalf of the keepers of the liberties of england , by authority of parliament , of high treason , and other high crimes and offences against the parliament and people of england ; this high court therefore requires you to give a positive and direct answer , whether you are guilty or not guilty of the crimes and treasons laid to your charge . m. love. i refuse not to plead , but i beseech you give me leave to speak before i answer . mr. love having a paper in his hand , the judge said : l. pres . how many leaves is it ? m. love. but two or three ; and if this court be more strict and severe to me , then that was to mr. lilburne , i cannot help it . what i shall say , shall be something in generall , and i beseech you give me leave to speak to it . att. gen. sir , not before you plead . m. love. yet i have this liberty , that when matter of law ariseth in the indictment , to make a motion , and to move for counsel , and to shew the illegality of it ; and though i confesse i am extreamly ignorant of the law , yet i understand , that after i have pleaded , i am not capable of counsell . l. pres . you are mistaken , master love. m. love. i suppose i am not mistaken : for in the third part of judge cooks institutes , i finde it thus : the prisoner , when he pleads not guilty , whereby he denies the fact , after the plea of not guilty , can have no counsell ; but if he have any matter of law to plead before , he may urge it . l. pres . he pleads he is ignorant of the law , and yet can make use of it . m. love. i am to plead for my life , and i am to use scripture , law , and any other lawfull means to save my life . paul did plead the roman law. l. pres . some of us know as much of paul and scripture as you do . m. love. sir , i make no comparisons . then mr. love reads out of judge cooks institutes . the safest way for the party indicted , is to plead upon his arraignment the speciall matter for the overthrow of the indictment : and this must be done before i plead , and to require counsell for the pleading thereof , which ought to be granted , and to require a copy of so much of the indictment , which is necessary for framing his plea , which ought to be granted ; and these laws ought to be construed favourably , for that the indictment is commonly found in the absence of the party . l. pres . but your indictment is in you● presence . you are out of your way . m. love. sir , you bring me out of my way . l. pres . your indictment is not yet found , there is nothing done behinde your back , onely the reading of this ; but that is nothing but a written parchment , till you plead unto it . m. love. i have something to except against the legallity of this indictment . l. pres . go on then . m. love. sir , the first motion i shall make , is for counsell to advise in matters of law relating to this triall ; and as i do gather from hearing the indictment , there are severall matters of law that do arise , in which i desire to have counsell assigned me ; and the first is , whether the act by which this court is constituted , of the march , . that forbids receiving or sending letters or messages to or from england or ireland , do inable you to receive a charge against me concerning letters to or from scotland , scotland not being mentioned in that act by which you are constituted ; therefore seeing this is matter of law , i desire i might have counsel to advise with about it . att. gen. mr. love then doth admit that he hath received and sent letters to scotland . m. love. i admit nothing , sir , you charge me with it , but i do not grant it . att. gen. then you will give us leave to prove it . if he will admit that he hath sent and received letters from scotland , and so demur that it is not in your power , i will joyne with him . but my lord , there was a particular act read , that doth relate particularly to scotland ; and that this court hath cognizance of that act , was read before hand , but mr. love did not observe what was read to him ; and it is so far in favour of justice to him , that you read him the laws and clauses upon which he stands impeached , and that there is a law against sending to scotland . but my lord , these debates are lingring of time ; if a man will demand counsel , he admits the fact , that the fact is true ; but being true , he ought not to be condemned upon it : if so , i will joyne with him . but if he plead not guilty , i shall be ready to prove it . m. love. i beseech you sir , i do apprehend there is another matter of law ariseth , and that is from the act of the maerch , . there is a prohibition of sending letters or messages to any in arms against the parliament ; now i am charged with sending and writing letters into scotland : now it doth not appear to me , that scotland was in arms against the parliament of england , but for their own preservation . therefore i desire counsel in this , whether i that am accused of writing and sending into scotland , am therefore accused of writing and sending to those who are in arms against the parliament of england ; or whether they were in arms for the preservation of scotland , or in opposition to the parliament of england . att. gen. if you will admit still , that you have sent or received from scotland , then i readily grant it . m. love. i will admit of nothing ; i have so much of a christian in me , that i will deny nothing that is proved to be true , and so much of an englishman , that i will admit of nothing that is seemingly criminall . l. pres . you are a christian , and you are here in the presence of god as achan was . m. love. if it be proved against me . l. pres . then your denial of it will be a high transgression against god. m. love. i could urge the case of jesus christ , who when he was accused before a judicatory , answered not a word . l. pres . you are out . m. love. when christ was accused in a civil businesse , to be a mover of sedition ( as now i am ) they asked him whether he was king of the jews , and he answered them not a word . but this is that i doubt , whether there be not matters of law arising from the charge read against me , and that in respect of the time of the act of the march , . which gives power to you to determine severall crimes , and to proceed to the trial of the offendor . and sir , it is also to me doubtfull , whether this be not matter of law , viz. whether this trial ought not to be by a jury of twelve of the neighbourhood , or whether in any different way from it ; and i doubt it upon this ground , your lordship having given me this hint ; for i was present at the trial of mr. lilburne , and the formality of the law tied him to plead to this , that he must be tried by god and his country . he refused it , and your lordship urged it upon him , that he might safely plead it by god , because god was in all judicatories ; and by his country , because , said you , by country is meant the jury of a mans equals . and this is a trial according to the law of the land. now if you have declared that in guild-hall , i beseech your lordship inform me , whether a different way from this of a jury of the neighbourhood be according to law in westminster hall. l. pres , you shall be informed . that was a trial by the law , as it then stood ; these now are all upon acts of parliament and laws of the land , that are of as high a nature as they : those are ancient laws , and these are statutes lately made , and of an extraordinary nature , and were made to meet with such persons as you , that have done such things as you have done . and now for your neighbourhood , i hope you have twenty or forty neighbours that are within the equity of that law. mr. love. if they be a jury , i have power to except against . of them . att. gen. my lord , he pretends mr. lilburns triall , but when you come to hear the evidence , you shall hear what he was doing then ; he was preparing himself then in his businesse ; he thought his time might come ; and i am informed , that since he hath been in the tower , lilburn hath been his counsel . m. love. mr. prideaux , sir , you are no god , to know my thoughts . att. gen. i did say this from his own expression , he was a diligent observer there , that he might know what was done there , that so he might prepare himself . m. love. sir , you did declare this after the change and abolition of a king and house of lords , that a triall by a jury of twelve of the neighbourhood was according to law ; and you urged master lilburne with this , that he might plead , and do no harm unto himself . and not onely so , but the house also declared , that since the change of government , they would never alter that way of triall ; and upon the ninth of february , . they did declare , that though they thought fit to abolish the kingly office , and the house of lords , yet they resolved they would still retain and preserve the fundamentall laws of the nation , for and concerning the preservation of the liberties , lives , and estates of the people . now sir , they declaring they would never alter this way of triall , and you declaring this way of triall by juries , to be according to the fundamentall laws of the land , i beseech you give me the reason why it is denied to me . att. gen. my lord , it is very unusuall for a prisoner to debate with the court . here he is to be controuled . let him know he is a prisoner , upon the triall of his life , before that court that hath been impowred by the parliament , they who did never binde their own hands : i must say , my lord , they cannot binde their own hands . and it is this triall that they have thought fit to give him . and for his excepting against thirty five , then you will hardly be a court left . my lord , i think if he look upon the court , he will finde no enemies here , knowing them to be of his neighbourhood , and most of them of london ; and i think , he known to them , and they to him , the most of them . but my lord , these disputes are not allowed to others ; and the gentleman will ( i hope ) have so much modesty at last , that he will think he hath said a little too much to the court ; and i think , it is not good to provoke too far . and my lord , he hath said much , and you have given him faire answers , and those that are cleare and undeniable . but if he speak of the jurisdiction of the court , and that he will not plead , let him speak in plain english , and he shall hear me in plain english . m. love. although i am not satisfied as to the foundation and originall of this court , yet i refuse not a triall , hoping that tendernesse of conscience will appear in you , and clearnesse in me , and weaknesse of proof against me . upon this , i do not refuse a triall , but i will plead , if i may have that which the law allows me . and according to my weak measure and unskilfulnesse in the law , upon the charge read against me , i do apprehend there may be some things objected against the legality of the indictment , and many things to take it off , both for matter of time , and form , and other things , by a lawyer . therefore i intreat i may have counsell to be with me , both in my chamber , and here in the court , and then i will plead . att. gen. i am not here to make a bargain : but this i will say to him , he hath had so much tendernesse and respect , as few men more . he hath had notice of his triall above a fortnight ; and my lord , he hath not been denied counsell . m. love. i could do nothing in order to my triall , because i have sent for counsell , and they would not come neer me , because they were not assigned by this court ; and my studies being another way , and being unskilfull in the law , therefore i could do nothing in preparation to my triall : therefore i pray do not destroy me in a hurry : the more faire the triall is , the more just you will be , and i the more guilty if it be proved against me . att. gen. i appeal to master love , whether or no it was not denied to lilburne ; and there is none that hears him , but sees he hath prepared himself , and perused severall acts whereupon he is impeached . but these are discourses ( my lord ) which if he will put too nigh upon the court , that we should dispute : we cannot force words from him . m. love. mr. prideaux is pleased to urge mr. lilburne , but i have more matter of law arising from the charge then he had , and have not that triall by way of a jury as he had ; and there are many things in the charge said to be done before the act of the march , . which gives you cognizance onely of things done from that time ; so that many things there are , in which counsell would advise me ; therefore i beseech you deny me not that right and just favour . l. pres . you do not breathe the same aire nor the same breath , for it comes from you both yea and nay : for you say you are ignorant , and yet will not be informed by any thing that can be said , and so your ignorance is wilfull . but in this case i am sure , what law soever you can plead , yet there be some acts and matters you have denied . m. love. i have urged matter of law arising out of the charge , from the of march , . there was no act then , that i know of , that did prohibite the sending of letters or messages to or from scotland ; and i am indicted for letters or messages sent to , and received from scotland , before that time . att. gen. i would fain give you satisfaction : do not cast away your self . my lord , we do use in law to lay it so for the fact , we cannot tell what the proof will be , whether the proof will be within this three moneths or ten moneths ; and it is laid in relation to other offences . mr. love. i have here the letters of severall counsellors , and they returne to me their denial ; if i could have got their counsell , i would : and yet if i had had it , i could not tell what they should have advised me in , not having a copy of my charge . l pres . if you had desired a copy of your charge , you might have had it . you must know you are before those that have law and conscience , and that are bound to be of counsell for you , and that is the court , and it is their duty to see that whatsoever the law of england allows you to have , that that you should have ; but you must have it in a due and proper time and manner of law appointed . you are not now for the present where lilburn was , nor before such a court ; he was before a commission of oyer and terminer , who are to proceed according to those laws , and upon that the commission directs , and that is by that which the known and fundamentall laws of england direct unto : but this is not in all particulars the like ; the jury there hath a large latitude , who proceed by way of grand jury and petty jury , which are both included in this court : so that in all things the proceedings upon that are not as upon this : but thus far the proceedings are alike ; you have your charge , and you are to plead to it , for that is the first thing to be done ; there is nothing can answer your charge , but whether you be guilty or not guilty : if you plead not guilty , then the evidence will be called , and if then any matter of law ariseth upon the evidence , it is the usuall course to assigne you counsell , and to be counsell for you , and to tell you it is law to have counsell ; but for you to demand counsell , and first to have counsel assigned you , it is against that form and legality that the law of england appoints ; for till you put your self upon trial , we cannot allow you counsel to the trial ; so that you must plead , and it is our duty to tell you so : and it is the duty of this court , to be as careful when you have put your self upon trial , that all the benefit of the law may be afforded you ; therefore you need not fear it , for if any of these things arise you now fear upon the evidence , then will be your time and our time to stand upon this you now do , touching matter of law ; but in the mean time , in truth that which we are to tell you , and which we are bound in justice and conscience to let you know , is this , that you are out of your way ; and therefore do not destroy your self : for if you refuse to plead , there is nothing then but a plain downright judgement . m. love. in ordinary courts of judicatory the judges do counsel for the prisoner ; but you are here judges not onely in matter of law , but of matter of fact also , and therefore i cannot advise with you : for should i confesse any thing , then it ariseth out of my own mouth , and you will condemn me upon it ; seeing therefore both lie in you , both matter of law and matter of fact , i beseech you afford me counsel , and let me have a copy of my charge , and solicitors , that they may be here with me in court , and then i shall willingly plead . att. gen. this cannot be done , nor ever was done , to have counsel assigned until upon matter of fact something did appeare ; and for the copy of the charge , it was never demanded i think before ; and it is in vain for us to speake , if the gentleman do refuse to plead ; i shall then presse you for justice . m. love. i do not refuse to plead ; but yet i should be guilty of my own bloud , should i not plead for that just and necessary means for the preservation of my life : through my ignorance i may run my self into hazard and danger ; therefore i beseech you deny me not that just favour . a lawyer a member of the court. mr. love , you are not prodigal , you say , of your bloud , nor are we i hope , prodigal of your bloud ; we are to answer for all , therefore i pray let me beg thus much of you : if you plead not guilty to the charge , then there is a proceeding to be by master atturney , to prove you guilty of it ; and if by any evidence that he shall produce , or in any thing that shall fall out from your self , in answer to the evidence , there shall arise matter of law , trust us , i pray you , we do promise you that we will give you the benefit of the law in it ; and when there comes matter of law to be decided , which we are perswaded is matter of law , then you shall have counsel assigned you ; but there is no counsel to be allowed till the prisoner desire it , and shew matter of law , for which he desires it . another lawyer of the court. the main thing you stand upon , mr. love , is this , that there is no mention made in any act , that this court can take cognizance of sending to , or receiving from scotland , but therein you are mistaken ; for the businesse of holding correspondency with scotland , is in expresse words appointed to be under the jurisdiction of this court , therefore i think you are utterly mistaken in that . then sir , for counsel , if there comes any thing in the world that is legal , and is a fit thing counsel should be heard in , i think i may promise it , we will not make our selves so far guilty of your bloud , as to deny you that justice that belongs to any man ; for it is your just right to have it , and we cannot deny it , when a point of law ariseth . and you do not urge matter of law ; onely you question the jurisdiction of the court , and we must overrule you in that , for we are not to dispute the power of the court ; for if the parliament give us jurisdiction , and by a speciall act appoints , that the businesse of holding correspondency with scotland should be within the cognizance of this court , we must obey , and not dispute . m , love. i suppose , sir , a man may demur concerning the jurisdiction of a court to one point , as if he be accused for treason at the common pleas , he may demur to the jurisdiction of that court in that : so sir , i apprehend there are some things read against me in the charge , of which this court cannot take cognizance ; for that they are said to be done before the act for the constituting of this court came forth : so that i may demur to the jurisdiction of the court in that particular . l. pres . for you to anticipate your evidence before we come to it ● we do not tye you to the charge , but to the proof , and we must apply our selves to the proof , and not to the charge . att. gen. and for the businesse of scotland , which troubles him much , it is exprest in this very act , that the same offences are to be inquired , tried , and judged by the high court of justice , in such manner and form , as other offences are to be tried , in expresse termes . m. love. but there is no time mentioned : for there are two acts , wherein if the prisoner be not indicted within a yeer , then the fact shall not be prosecuted . therefore i must demur to the charge , as not legal in matter of form . there are two acts declaring what offences shall be treason , wherein it is said in those two acts , that if the party be not indicted within a yeer , he shall not be indicted at all . now the indictment that is against me , looks back to things that are pretended to have been done by me in . and . and so according to those two acts , i am not to be questioned for them , it being above a yeer before i was indicted . l. pres . how is it possible that this comes to be an exception untill you heare the evidence ? if you heare the evidence , and do finde that the witnesse do speak to this not within the time of the limitation , then is your exception proper ; but no counsel can divine what time they can give evidence for . m. love. sir , i am now to look to the charge of treason read against me , and not to the evidence ; and in the charge i am indicted for those things , for which i apprehend i ought not to be indicted . for according to those two acts , i ought not to have been indicted for things pretended to have been done by me so long ago : and this i apprehend to be matter of law . and for the witnesses , let them speek to what time they will , yet this i am sure , they cannot prove that i was indicted within a yeer for those things that are charged upon me to be done in . and . for that were to prove an impossibility : so that it appears to me , i am indicted for those things for which i ought not to be indicted . l. pres . it may be so ; and if so , those things will fall off of themselves ; there may be some things true , and some things not true ; and the counsel may faile in proof of some of them , and you may clear your self ; yet this cannot be before the pleading . when you come to plead , if the matter be not proved against you , and within the time limited , it will fall off of it self without any words at all ; and all this time is lost to all this auditory , and no counsel can give you advice in this . m. love. i still say , i do not refuse to plead , but if you would afford me counsel , i should thinke my life in a great deal lesse danger . for i do not know , whether i may not , by the advise of counsel , confesse some part of the indictment ; whether i may not demur in law upon some part , or a great part of the indictment , which i have done already ; as that i am charged for treason for those things that are not within your cognizance or power , as i apprehend , and things done before your acts ; and for such things , that if i had done them , i must have been indicted for them within a yeer , or else not at all ; and these i deem legal exceptions . member of the court. my lord , he is very ignorant of the law ; for the fact must be put in question before matter of law can arise ; for if the fact be one way , then the law fals out that way ; if the fact be false , then another way . now if mr. love bring in any of these exceptions for matter of fact upon proof , wheth●r he sent letters into scotland , or in such a time , whether that be any offence , that will all arise after the matter of fact proves true or false : but before that , under favour , none can speak to any thing against an indictment , unlesse he speak against the jurisdiction of the court . and then for other maters , they are saved unto him . and you will , i suppose , admit of counsel in matter of law ; but his desire cannot be granted unto him until he plead , and until the matter of fact be some way determined . m. love. i beseech you acquaint me then with the meaning of these words in judge cooks institutes , the prisoner at the bar may have counsel to overthrow the indictment . it must be either to overthrow a part of the indictment , or to help the plea , either to plead not guilty in part , or to demur in part . let me hear then , i beseech you , what is the meaning of those words , that the prisoner at the bar may have counsel to overthrow the indictment . i cannot overthrow the indictment when i plead ; for then witnesse comes in against me . att. gen. he may overthrow the indictment by the witnesse ; and i believe he is convinced , that the court hath jurisdiction in as full and expresse terms as law and authority can give them . and for the next , i may say , your lordship and the court did never allow a counsel to pick holes and finde faults . but if he object that to you that is just and probable , and that which is dubious and doubtful , and fit to be debated in law , assigne him counsel . you have heard all his particular exceptions , and given your judgement upon them all . but i hope , he doth not here expect to have lectures of law read him , and to make him understand them . but as to those particular exceptions that he hath made to you , i think some satisfaction is given , and that every man is satisfied , and that there is no colour of doubt there ; for matter of fact , and the times that he insists upon . for the act directing what offences are treason , and not to be arraigned unlesse they be prosecuted within a yeer , i must tell him , the impeachment is laid from to . yet my lord , i shall make it appear , that the indictment doth look backward to some offences , and forward to others ; it is laid first in general . he committed such and such treasons and offences in such and such years . and i shall come with the evidence , and apply them to such times that are within your power , and in which the law makes them offences : and this is to be debated then , and not to be once spoken of now . my lord , i shall begin from . and run on with him , that he hath continued in a treasonable disposition , and in treasonable plottings , to the time he was laid up , and since ; and will justifie all ; and therefore it behoves him to insist upon it . and i will make it appear , that he was one of the first that ever did appear against this common-wealth in plotting ; and he did continue so until the time of his restraint , and after that time . m. love. sir , you are no witnesse ; if you be a witnesse , come and swear . att. gen. i will use you with all the duty of my place ; and if you give me not occasion , i shall not do otherwise . m. love. i shall give you no occasion . l. pres . this will make all that heare him , to thinke that this is the very best of his case ; as we know it is . m. love. sir , although i do not come here to have the law expounded to me , yet i do come here to have the benefit of the law ; and if the law allows me this benefit ( i being unskilful ) that if i can finde in the charge matter of law arising , then to have counsel to advise me , and to overthrow the indictment ; why should i be denied this benefit ? and i do not yet , according to my understanding , see that you afford me the benefit of the law , you not granting me counsel to advise me to overthrow the indictment . one of the court. mr. love , if it were possible , i desire you might have satisfaction , for this that you desire is very just ; and when it comes to its proper time , then you shall have it : but do not by disorderly demanding of it out of your time , lose the benefit you might have of it when it comes to your time . that which you stand upon , and call law , is not matter of law ; nor can you call it law , till you hear what the fact is . for can any man judge what is matter of law , till he know the matter of fact ; as it hath been told you well , that the law ariseth out of the fact ; 〈◊〉 that if you will anticipate the evidence and the proof of the fact , by urging this matter of law 〈…〉 did heare read in the charge , you will do your selfe wrong , and you are mistaken in it : for there is no matter of law appears there , for it is barely , thus you have done . and if you say this is law , you exclude all the witnesses . whether you have done it or no , we cannot tell ; and if you have done it , whether contrary to law or no , we cannot tell , because we must apply the witnesse to the acts of parliament that authorizeth us to sit here ; and if we finde that the doubt grows upon what the witnesses say , and upon what the law saith , then doth matter of law arise , and then it is time for you to say , it appears not by this witnesse , that it is within the act. i do the rather speak this , because we do extreamly desi●e you should receive satisfaction , for i would not have any here have any thing put upon him , that may not appear just and according to law ; and none can ever say that a man had counsel assigned him before he pleaded here . l. pres . it is now the sessions at newgate , and there may be many prisoners , and if every prisoner should take the liberty to plead matter of law , and say , i am no lawyer , let me have counsel assigned me , and i will answer , when should we have any man answer ? when would men be executed for robbing , and stealing , and killing ? m love. that court is different from this , you here are judges both of law and fact , there the judges judge of law , and the jury of matter of fact . but sir , satisfie me in this , if there be any thing in law before pleading to overthrow the indictment ( as i perceive by judge cook there is , and to which i have received no satisfactory answer ) let me have that legal benefit to overthrow the charge . i have said what i can : but if i had counsel here , they could say a hundred times more . l. pres . you have heard no body but your self , for whatsoever hath been told you by the court and your friends about you , hath not been hearkened unto . we have spent thus much time , and people are weak , and if you will plead , do . reade his charge once again ; and i tell you , the next is judgement . the clerk. christopher love , you stand charged on the behalf of the keepers of the liberties of england , by authority of parliament , of high treason , and of other high crimes and offences against the parliament and people of england ; this high court therefore requires you to give a positive and direct answer , whether you are guilty or not guilty of the crimes and treasons laid to your charge . m. love. i am not satisfied , but that matter of law doth arise from this charge ; and i do earnestly presse i may have counsel , and then i will plead . att. gen. i do as earnestly presse , that you would as positively say , that you cannot allow him counsel till he hath pleaded . m. love. i now see mr. attorneys words to be true . when he came to me to the tower and examined me , the of this month , he said , that seeing i would not acknowledge ( as he called them ) my treasons , i was judged peremptory and obstinate ; and i remember he said these words to me , mr. love , though you are too hard for me in the pulpit , yet i will be too hard for you at the bar ; and truly now i finde it so ; and it is an easie matter for a lawyer , armed with law and power , to be too hard for a poor naked scholar , that hath neither law nor power . l. pres . doth this do any good to you ? if it were so that you are too hard for him ( for you are too hard for every man in the pulpit ; ) yet you sometimes are so out , and in that you are controulable . if master attorney be too hard for you here , let him be too hard for you ; but it is the court that are to deale with you here : we will not do it because of his saying , but you must think that the court will be led by their evidence , and not by mr. attorney . m. love. you gave this favour to master lilburne , and i do not deny to plead : but i am not prodigal of my bloud , therefore i crave counsel . l. pres . i do not know what to say more to give you satisfaction , then what i have said ; you say you do not deny to plead , and yet you do not plead ; you say mr. attorney is too strong for you ; but you know it is not he , but the evidence may be too strong for you . and do not you think that you have such judges , as will let you receive any prejudice . mr. love , you are a minister , i pray shew forth the spirit of a minister of jesus christ ; carry your self so , as that you may not either wrong your self or the court . i would have you behave your self without recriminating . you speak of mr. attorney , as if he could be too hard for you , as if we were all of his side , be it right or wrong : know , that we are men of conscience , and have souls to save as well as you . mr. love. the charge is long , and i never heard of it before , nor knew of it before . one of the court. we give you our faith and credit , that if any matter of law ariseth , we will not make our selves guilty of your blood , but we will allow you counsel ; your self hath read a book in the court , that shews the court cannot allow you counsel till you plead . l. pres . did you ever consult with the lieut. of the tower ? what , will you cast away your self ? col. west lieut. of the tower. i could , my lord , advise him no more then what i knew , and that was the time of your sitting . m. love. i hope you will not in a hurry spill my blood . lieut. of the tower. since saturday was seven night he was not restrained . l. pres . your profession goes much in profession ; but when it is abused , it is the highest transgression ; you would evade things with mental reservations , and say and unsay at the bar , as high as any jesuite can do . m. love. i will not lye for my life ; you may say what you please , and do what you please ▪ i speak before god and this audience . l. pres . mr. love , know that we are here in as sacred a posture as you are in the highest place of your calling , and if we do not know that god is here present , we are the miserablest creatures in the world ; and therefore if your office and ours do not make us know that we are in the presence of god and jesus christ , it will be but ill for us ; and yet you hurry out , that it should be such a terrible thing in you , more then in us . you have spoken many words as a shadow in the aire , there is nothing materiall in them , but the strength of your will against the judgement of the court . m. love. if i do plead to the charge , i do allow the matter and form of the charge to be legal . i desire to have counsel to come to my chamber ; i do not say , to come to this place , but to have liberty for them to come to my chamber . mr. steele recorder of london . i did not think to have spoken , nor have i usually spoken in this court , yet i will speak a word out of tendernesse to your self . you have very often insisted upon it , that you should have counsel assigned before you plead , that is it you plead for : truly the course of law is this , that if the prisoner charged at the bar , before he plead shall demand counsel , he must of necessity put in some special plea before the time he can demand counsel . the court doth not inforce you to plead guilty or not guilty to all the matter of fact , but they say , of necessity you must plead . if you put in a special plea , and tell them that it is a special plea , and desire counsel upon it , they will consider it : but till you can declare what that special plea is , for there is a general plea , and a special plea ; the general plea is , not guilty , the special plea is in some particulars . now for you to alleadge neither the special plea nor the general plea , it is impossible that counsel can be assigned you . and whereas you say you are concluded if you plead , and cannot object against the indictment afterwards ; no sir , i tell you in the name of a christian , and one that knows a little of the law , that all the objections you have against the indictment , the formality of it , and those things you speak of , as that of your fact not being committed in such a time that the act holds out , that the high court hath no relation to try you for scotland ; all these will be saved to you , if they arise upon matter of fact from the evidence . true , if you make an objection against the jurisdiction of the court , that hath no relation either to the special plea or general plea , it cannot be . it is impossible an objection should be received against the essence of the court , there is none can possibly over-rule that for you , but themselves ; it is such a thing , that no counsel can be assigned you , as to that , because it strikes at the very being of the court . now therefore i beseech you in the name of a christian , that you will not do your self that prejudice , for nature teacheth every man to preserve himself by all just wayes and means ; and i do believe that in this businesse you have apprehended it for your preservation , and that you are loth to do any thing that tends to your destruction ; but you may satisfie your conscience , in that you have done what you can . and when you have pleaded , and used all the arguments you can , and have heard the judgement of the court in it , you may satisfie your conscience , that in the words of honest men ( unlesse it be the jurisdiction of the court , though you have tacitely spoken there ) you shall have that right and priviledge which the law allows you . i confess● , i never spake here before , and it is a rule amongst us , that none but the president should speak , and we have done more to you , then to the greatest person that ever spake here , because we think some necessity lies upon us towards you ( in regard of your calling , and the worth that hath appeared in you ) to direct you what you have to do . m. love. sir , a man may demur touching the jurisdiction of any court , if he can shew any thing in the indictment that the court cannot take cognizance of , which he is charged with ; though he do not demur simply as to their jurisdiction in general , yet as to that particular he may demur ; as a man may demur in chancery , when a cause is onely triable at the common law . l. pres . you must know , that he that speaks against the jurisdiction of the court , speaks against the jurisdiction of the parliament of england . mr. steel recorder of london . mr. love , to help your understanding , i did not say that mr. love did expresly speak against the power of the court , as if they had no power to try him ; but this he seemed to say ; that what he hath offered against the jurisdiction of the court , in any thing he is questioned for , if he have not counsell for it before , he cannot have it afterwards . now if the question you offer be a mixt doubt , for your objection is mixt ; for you say , the court hath no power to try the facts , whereof you are indicted ; now is it possible the court can judge of that , or know there is matter of law ariseth out of it , till the fact appear out of the mouths of the witnesses ? it may be the fact will not be proved , then there wil be no matter of law arising ; if the fact be proved that it was done at such a time , before the act was made , when that appears to them , the court then will strike it off , you shall not need counsell , then we shall not regard it : if upon the fact any other doubt ariseth in relation to scotland ( for it must be from two witnesses , your doubting being mixed with matter of fact ) we shal then be able to judge of it . mr. love. sir , if any crime be laid to my charge , that ought not to be laid , and that this court can take no cognizance of , i should have counsell in it . l. pres . we have spoken more to you then became us , perchance , and that from tendernesse to you ; and if nothing can give you satisfaction , but over and over with the same things again , we can but speak our consciences and leave it to your self . mr. love. i do declare , i do submit to the tryall , and am willing to do it ; but it behoves me to use all just means for the preservation of my life ; if you will , give me but a dayes time to consult with counsell . l. pres . that is in your learning sufficient to say , you will do it , and yet do not do it ; because i say , i will submit , therefore i do submit ; this is no obedience at all . i know no such logick as this ; it is submitting that must do it ; you will submit , but you will not act ; pray m. love , be so charitable as to take us to be christians . mr. love. what prejudice sir , can it be to this court , being i have not spoken with any lawyer , to give me but a days time ? i will desire no more . att. gen. i would faine know , why may not the next prisoner say , you have done so in mr. love's case ? mr. love. you have accepted of speciall pleas , you did it in the case of sir john stowel ; and if i through my ignorance in law , cannot urge the strength of law , and a speciall plea , as otherwise i might do , i beseech you let me not be prejudiced by it . l. pres . sir john stowel insisted upon speciall matter he had to plead , and that was , the articles of exeter : but he did first plead to the charge , not guilty : yet we gave him that benefit ; and he had that which did last a great debate of this court , and so did hambleton ; and divers others , we will do no otherwise with you then with them . mr. love. if you now deny me my speciall plea , i cannot help it , which is this , that the writing or sending letters ( if it could be proved against me ) into scotland , doth not come within your act , and that it is only for england and ireland that are mentioned therein . l. pres . if there be a speciall plea wherein there is no difficulty , then we give no counsell ; but a speciall plea must have something that is dubious in the judgement of the court ; but for this , that in the letter of the law every school boy understands ; the judge will not allow you counsell in a triviall matter ; we have gone over and over with you againe , and this is like other discourses with you ; but certainly never was the like seen , that a court was so trifled with . m. love. this is my humble motion , allow me but counsell to morrow , that they may appeare here . l. pres . you may have counsell to morrow as the case shall be . m. love. shal i have the copy of the charge ? l. pres . you shal have what is fit , you shall have nothing denied you when it comes to you to have it , you shall have that respect ; i do it not to flatter you : but refuse to plead at your perill . mr. love. vvill you give me but this favour , that i may have but an hour or two's time to consult with a lawyer ? l. pres . i do not know but that this that is done , must be done for all that comes to the bar . att gen. i had thought there would have appeared in him that cals himself a minister of the gospel , more meekness & obedience to authority , not out-facing authority : & it is not wel done of him . my lord i humbly beg , that having had thus much of your patience , and perswasion by arguments , and all means used to him , and nothing will prevaile ; that , my lord , you will now be pleased to give your judgement according to the rules that the law appoints you , upon him that refuseth to plead . m. love. i do not refuse to plead . l. pres . doth a man of your learning say , you do not refuse ! m. love. a man may demur to his charge , and yet not refuse to plead ; and the court may grant me a daies time , if they please ; for i come here unarmed and unprepared . att. gen. his demur is to matter of fact . l. pres . will you put that upon law , for law , which is not law ? and by your putting your selfe upon that , you confesse the whole charge . att. gen. i desire one favour , my lord , which is of justice to him ; which is , that you would be pleased to command your clerk to read that act that says , if any person before you refuse to plead , he may heare the sentence of the law upon him . l. pres . clerk , read the act. the clerk reads that part of the act about refusing to plead . att. gen. my lord , we desire his final sentence . m. love. my lord , i desire but the favour of a daies time to consult with lawyers . the lord president consults a while with the court. l. pres . i now do deliver it from all of the court , and all of them are of that minde , and now plead , or you shall have judgement . m. love. but if i plead , i desire i may have counsel to hear the witnesses . l. pres . we will not make a president ; for it will be said , it was master lilburns case , and master loves case . mr. love. will you promise me , that i shall have counsel to heare the witnesse . l. pres . we will promise you justice . reade the sentence . the clerk goes to reade the sentence . m. love. not guilty . att. gen. my lord , we do say in the behalf of the common-wealth , he is guilty of the crimes and treasons laid to his charge . and , my lord , you now perceive , that when you have been long troubled , you see he comes very hardly to it ; an innocent man would not have made so much ado ; and knowing his innocency , would not have had so much capitulation and trifling with a court of justice . my lord , for these crimes , you are pleased to observe they are of several natures , and of long continuance . and now , my lord , for the state of the evidence , it is commended to the charge of another gentleman , that is master solicitor general of the common-wealth , to open to you the state of the fact , by which he stands here impeached and accused , the nature of it , and how it should have been carried on , the series of time , the persons with whom he complied , how plotted and contrived to undermine this common-wealth , even to the foundations of it . my lord , when that is opened , i will then produce the evidence to make it good against him . mr. solicitor gen. my lord , mr. love urgeth much for himself , but he doth not tell you what . for my part , i never saw his face till now ; but his own carriage , if that do not do him wrong , none will. he saies , he is singled out from all the rest of his brethren . i suppose he means those that are his fellow conspirators ; the reason of that is , because he was the first , he had a hand in the first action and last action ; so that from the beginning to the end he was the principal man , both by counsel , friends , purse , and incouragement ; and that is the reason he might justly be singled out to be first in the punishment , because he was first in the fact . he saies , god in achans case wrought the discovery . my lord , i thinke the court will think , that god was the great discoverer of this great treason ; for through the whole series of it , it was prest and carried on with as much caution and secrecy as the wit of man could contrive , and nothing but the goodnesse of the god of lights , the father of lights , could have brought this to light , who discovers the secrets of all hearts , and hidden things of darknesse ; he hath discovered this . my lord , the nature of the treason , it is not one or ten treasons , but it is a mystery of treasons , woven together during the space of two years , under the notion of religion . many of them that were the conspiratours , giving out , that they were a party distinct and separate , and so they did behave themselves like a party separate from the rest of the common-wealth . first , this party did assume to themselves soveraign power , and did exercise it divers ways ; they did take upon them to send agents abroad to treat with forraign princes and states , enemies to this common-wealth , and to give commission to that purpose , and to give instructions to that purpose , they did demean themselves in this point , as if this party had been a free state. my lord , the very first of their rise was that in february , . when the scots had declared for the king , then they send immediately to their brethren here , these conspirators , to let them know that they intended to make addresses to the new king very speedily , and that there was propositions drawing to that purpose ; and did desire a firm compliance with them , promising them faithfully ( and how they kept it we shall hear ) as their brethren of scotland , that their interest should be provided for as their own . and the covenant that was the ground of all . when they had thus promised , they believed their brethren , and thereupon went about the work , and established a councel at dowgate , and there they met , and plotted and contrived how in the first place to make an agreement between the king and the scots , to the intent that when they were agreed , they might come with united forces to invade this common-wealth . they were plotting and contriving this about midsomer , . they were taken notice of abroad to be considerable men ; and the king of scots , as they called him , thought fit to send an agent to them , to treat with them , which was one mason , my lord piercies man ; his errand here , was to reconcile both parties , the royal and presbyterian party , and to make them both subservient to do his work . my lord , he treated with the countesse of carlisle , william drake , and divers others , citizens of london , and this was with the privity of the ministers . my lord , he had commission from the king to assure these conspirators , that if they could procure the scots to send more moderate propositions then they had formerly sent ( for the treaty was broken off before ; the propositions were then immoderate ) that they should be satisfied . thereupon they were so confident of themselves , and so bold ; ( and in this master love had a principal hand ) that without any more ado , he frames a letter to scotland , to advise them , and to perswade them by all means to send more moderate propositions . the scots return them this answer , that they saw no cause to send more moderate propositions ; but they desiring a good successe of the treaty , they should send before hand to the king , to prepare and move him to comply with the propositions when they came . thereupon they were as ready , whereas they sent with the one hand to the scots , so with the other hand to the king. they framed a letter to the king , and i will expresse it in their own language ; this was the substance of their letter : first they let the prince know , that there was a considerable party in england sensible of their sufferings there ( they made themselves so considerable ; ) and by and by , you shall see what became of that . first , the kind did understand them to be so considerable . secondly , they were bound in conscience and loyalty , to the utmost to help him to his just rights , if he were once ingaged with them by taking the covenant , &c. and prosecuting the ends of it . thirdly , that there was no way to do this , but by closing with his subjects of scotland . fourthly , that being done , all the presbyterians were bound to assist him . and this , which they did , must be sent away before commissioners come , to prepare the king to give them good entertainments . with this letter there was a letter sent to the late queen , to desire her by all means to work the king to a compliance with the scots . and there was a letter sent to my lord piercy and jermin to that purpose , taking notice that the queen , my lord piercy , and jermin , were their very good friends , and ready for this conjunction ; whereof they took special notice , and did approve of it as a thing very acceptable , and which should be remembred in due time . my lord , this letter was sent , and afterwards mason he brings the answer from the king , and queen , and piercy , all agreeing to work this , that the scots if they came with propositions , should be complied withal . but piercy and jermin writ further , and did advise them , to the intent the king might not fall back again , that they would send a meet person to be present about the king when the commissioners came , that so he might see faire play : and thereupon titus was sent away , to be an agent there for them at this treaty ; and this treaty was at jersey ; but this treaty took not effect as was desired . whereupon they resolved upon another treaty at bredah ; but at the treaty at bredah the king advised in his letter ( which i shall reade ) in the later end of the letter , that they would send commissioners then to treat with him . my lord , the letter was written by the king back again to the ministers . first , the king in the letter took notice of the ministers non-compliance with the present power , and of their loyalty and good affection to him ; and that if god restored him , he would requite them . secondly , he promised all satisfaction to the scots . thirdly , made large promises of high favours particularly to the ministers . fourthly , wisht them to send commissioners , sufficiently instructed , to treat at bredah . now my lord , in the diary that came along with this ( for there was a diary of all titus his negotiations ) in that diary it did appear , that the king was very much satisfied with the correspondents application to him , and that that should be a main argument to him to satisfie the scots . so my lord , if they had not thus moderated , and perswaded the king that they were a very considerable party , he would never , in all probability , have closed with the scots , but have thought them very inconsiderable . but when he was informed , that if he closed with the scots , he should have a considerable party in england , that made him think the scots were worth the closing with . my lord , titus in his negotiation at jersey did assure the king , that the ministers were averse to the present government , both in pulpit and in print , and that they were well-affected to serve him and the nation , and that the nation was ready to espouse his quarrel if he did joyne with the scots . this he did assure him in the behalf of the ministers . and to shew how they did own this , they did like this assurance so well , that they sent him another letter ; and they did likewise send him a letter of thanks for his good service he had done , in possessing the king how considerable they were . my lord , after this businesse of jersey , when titus had done his good service there , he was coming home to make his relation ; but hea●ing by the way , that the councel of state had intercepted some letters , he durst not come farther then calice ; and from thence he sends a letter , to let them know all this ; and withal , that he had something to communicate to these conspirators , that was not fit to be communicated by letter , and therefore desired that some meet person might be sent to calice . thereupon , this letter being read in mr. loves study ( so secretly was it carried ) there it was agreed , that major alford should be the man that should go to titus , and should receive all this account from him . whereupon alford he went away to titus presently , and there he did speak to him , and titus did acquaint him with all these proceedings ; and withall they did advise , that a commission should be sent in the later part of the letter . so that now they had no more to do , but since their hopes failed them at jersey , to have an eye to the treaty at bredah , where they desired to send commissioners . my lord , this letter to be presented at bredah , was managed at mr. loves house . col. massey , col. graves , titus , &c. these were the parties there were letters sent to them to act accordingly ; and titus sent letters to the king and queen , and piercy . and again my lord , for the commission ; it was as transcendent a boldnesse , as ever was done by private men ; and the commission was corrected by mr. love ; for it was rough drawn by william drake , which was the english agent here . but mr. love in his study , and doctor drake , did help to correct it . the substance of the commission was this : we the presbyterian party in england , do authorize you , francis lord willoughby of pariham , edward m●ssey , james bunce , richard graves , and sylas titus , to treat on our behalf , and the rest of our brethren the presbyterians of england , with the king , and to assist our brethren the scots commissioners , in their treaty with the king , and to do according to the instructions annexed . my lord , here be the heads of the instructions : that the commissioners should use all arguments they could , to move the king to give the scots satisfaction , and to take the covenant ; and particularly to inform him of the condition of affairs , and how things stood in england at that time ; all which then cried out for an agreement with the scots ; giving them full power of all things , and what should be concluded by them the commissioners , should be confirmed by the confederates . i think , my lord , here was a very large commission ; whatsoever they thought fit , they were willing to comply with and make good . my lord , at mr. loves house , at the same time it was moved ( according to a letter from my lord piercy to william drake ) that a good sum of money might be sent to the king , as a great means to dispose the king to an agreement with the scots ; but they did not think fit to be cozened of their money , but if this conjunction did follow , then to raise money considerably . and they went on so far , as to debate how to raise this great sum of money for this pious work , as you shall hear by and by , under what notion when propounded . those men agreed , that the best way was , that the ministers should have several correspondents ; and that they should propound the lending of , , , , or pounds , for a charitable use ; but you must not ask what this charitable use is for . and this charitable use , what would it have been ? if god had not blest the battle at dunbar , we should have seen it . my lord , a little before the battel at dunbar , when they had a letter from massey , or bailey , or , somebody , they then began to understand their brethren better then before ; for he did informe them , that notwithstanding what was pretended , yet for all that , there was no english imployed , nor was the king crowned . this did disturb the minds of the conspirators very much ; insomuch that they did expostulate with a large letter written by mr. love and dr. drake , written in a table-book in sack , and sent there ; they did expostulate with them , because the presbyterian party , which was the over-ruling party , were growne so confident of carrying all before them , that they did neither crown the king , nor minde the english . they did blame them for this , seeing this going upon a single interest , and upon one party alone , which they did call godly , would not do well . and my lord , it proved so indeed , they carried it on upon this , till the battel at dunbar came , and then they began to be of another minde . after that battel , there was a letter from the commissioners of estates , pressing for arms and ammunition ; and letters from massey and titus for money to be sent . my lord , these good natured men , notwithstanding they had been so handsomly dealt withal when their brethren were in power , yet for all that , so fierce and eager were they to carry on this great designe , which god knows what it would have come to , they notwithstanding , upon mr. loves proposition ( for he was the man who did propound it ) agreed to send pounds presently to massey . my lord , this money was raised , and subscriptions taken by mr. love himself at his own table : and this is proved by one who brought his ten pounds , he brought it to mr. love , and would trust no body else with it ; and this was sent away presently by captain massey . my lord , there was a large letter sent also with the money , wherein was good counsel ; for besides the money , he did write to advise his brethren , that it would be notable service to indeavour after union . the letter was sent , and that large letter inviting to union had been delivered to the assembly , and that would help to quash the dissenting party in scotland , who had made the king a prisoner . but now the state and church were all agreed , and this was the fruit of mr. loves letter . and if they had not been so united , they could have done no harm ; this letter came so seasonably that they conceived it very considerable . they pressing to union very much , by this means did quash the dissenting brethren , and by that means they came to be as now they are . my lord , about christmas last , there came a letter from massey , which gave an account of crowning their king , and of great preparations to take the field ; and that the correspondents here should beware of unseasonable rising , and that they were most affraid that these persons would rise too soon , and so spoile all . my lord , in answer to this letter , they write back again to massey , to advise him on the other side , to take heed that he came not into england but well provided , and not to depend much upon the assistance here in england ; they were affraid he was too weak , as he was affraid they were too forward . my lord , after cook was apprehended , then the correspondents met no more at publick meetings , and yet they received letters from drake , massey , bunce , and the rest ( whereof mr. love was still made acquainted as a principal man ) that told them of the hopeful condition of the scots army , that they intended to engage in england ; advising the party here , not to be too forward . this was the second advice ; and see the reason of it ; for if mr. love sate at the helm , as he did , all the meetings being at his house , after drake went away he still stating the question , drew these letters and corrected them . and if he were such a main stickler , truly there was very great reason for his advice . my lord , about the middle of march last , col. bamfields man brings an answer to the message in the table-book written in sack , containing foure or five sheets of paper : upon this packet there was nothing written but the letter l. to deliver to one of the conspirators ; and seeing nothing but the letter l. written , he carried it to mr. love , and mr. love did own it as sent to him ; and that was the large narrative of the state of affairs in scotland , after the fight at dunbar , how things stood there . my lord , with this narrative was sent also a letter from mr. bailey , by order from the general assembly : they did order mr. bailey ( which was the scotch correspondent there ) to write a large letter ; and there was another letter from my lords of argile , lowden , and lothian , &c. it is worth your observing what this letter was that came from these men : first , thanks for the good affections of mr. love and the rest of the conspirators . secondly , incouragement to persevere , and to credit bamfields negotiation for money . thirdly , promised to repay all , whatever they should lend : but when , and by whom this payment should be made , the letter will tell you ; and that is , when god shall blesse their endeavours in procuring a free parliament in england . so the parliament in england must pay all the scots debts , that these conspirators shall lend . truly i thinke it will be a very free parliament indeed , when it comes so free out of the peoples purses . my lord , mr. love and others gave bamfields man that brought this narrative out of their own purses ten pounds , and sent a bill of exchange of . pounds to bamfield ; by one witnesse it will be expresly proved , that ten pounds of this money came out of mr. loves purse . my lord , william drakes last letter did informe , that massey would break into england as soon as there was grasse for his horses ; and therefore he sent to have a good bank of money provided in readinesse , and that they should think of timing a party , and that they should neither rise too soon nor too late , but just when massey came in ; this mr. love told major adams . my lord , now we come so near to the time , as that one of these conspirators is apprehended by the councel of state. when he had been in restraint three daies , he sent to mr. love , and mr. love came to him ; but he had been at a kinde of a fast , for they did keep fasts once a fortnight at least , and prayers , for the good success of this design , that god would bless this wonderful treason ; which was for the making , by the scots army , an utter subversion of this commonwealth ; and the free , and noble , and magnanimous people of england , should be made vassals and contributaries to the scots nation ; this was the design , and for this design , the ministers fasted and prayed : but it is plain , god did abhor such things . and , my lord , master love took upon him , to speak to the person under restraint , take heed , saith he , what you do , least you wrong your self or others ; and said , it is true , titus his man hath broken up papers , but we are all well enough ; but give notice to the rest of the confederates , that they may not be surprised ; but be you not troubled , because we have prayed for you this day : and they implored the god of truth , that nothing of all this should come to light , but that we should be in the dark still in generals . my lord , this is the true state of the evidence , as near as i can present it , with a frail memory : and , my lord , i have opened nothing but generals , your lordship and the court , will judge of it ; and master love will have the less to do to answer : but it appears by this , that there hath been such a practice , such a series of treason , treason upon treason , that one act of parliament is not enough to contain it ; but all those acts of parliament read , every one of them make him a traytor . and , my lord , i am sorry i have taken up so much of your time , especially , when you have spent so much time before : if your lordship therefore will be pleased to have the patience to hear the witnesses , we shall prove more then i have yet opened . at. gen. my lord , this was an early treason , that began betimes to crush the commonwealth in its infancy : and , my lord , master love being singled out for justice , you will anone observe , there was singular cause for it ; and if he had had his desert , it had been long before now : but states can play sometimes with treasons , and not take a time tell they see fit . my lord , this treason , as i have opened it to you , began in the year . the king of scots so called ; but take notice , that the same nation and persons that proclaimed him king of scotland , proclaimed him king of england also at the same time , in the same nation ; and those persons that proclaimed this person king of scotland , the same proclaimed him king of england . my lord , you have heard some of the conspirators named , titus and drake , active men both of them ; these men have been so ingenuous , that they have fled for their treasons ; notwithstanding this gentleman , a minister of the gospel , he doth not do so ; they have confest their offences , and are fled for them ; they dare not appear , they have so much guilt within them , that prompts them to keep away ; but this gentleman hath not so much my lord , drake was so active , and it was carried on with so much secresie , and so much ( as they thought ) of caution , that master drake writing , as that gentleman next mr. love doth , in short hand , he burnt his papers , and burnt all where any thing was to be seen , so that no originals are to be seen . my lord , in this case it hath been opened to you , what transactions mr. love had with scotland ; and you have been pleased to observe , it was a tender point , that mr. love did enter discourse with the scotch nation , mr. love was very much troubled at it , and he may see just cause to be troubled at it : and will you give me leave , there hath been blood and treasure spent , as was told you by mr. solicitor . i am afraid , i might too justly say , by that gentleman , and those he did seduce , that they have been too much the cause of this blood , even that gentleman that stands at the bar , that should be a man of peace , and not of blood . my lord , i may justly say , that that gentleman hath been too much the cause of these late engagements between these two nations , and making himself a party ; and it is a sad thing , when parties appear against a state. my lord , i am too much afraid , what ever god pleases to work upon him , that it should touch his conscience , that he should be instrumental in such a work . but i verily believe , had there not bin actings from hence , there had not bin so much forwardness in the kings party to the scots . my lord , i will minde that gentleman of what is said of the fifth of november , i am sorry for it , that it should be said of our ministers , whose faith is faction , whose religion is rebellion ; it is said so of the romish ministers , i hope it will not be said so of the english , that their faith is faction , and that they pray for strife , and fast for strife . my lord , for these men , drake and titus , they are gone , as i said , and they did confess themselves so much guilty , as that they have fled for it ; and mr. love doth know ( i am sorry to see him in that gesture ) that he was conversant with them all , and doth know ( i believe ) that we can prove it ; and when he hears the men named , he will say so too . truly , my lord , i have nothing to say against the person of the man , but against his vices and faults ; and nothing to his function , and nothing to those whom he pretends so boldly to represent , that is , the presbyterian party . we do all know , there are many honest , precious and godly men , that have received no discountenance from the state ; nor this gentleman , that should give him any countenance or encouragement to oppose the state : but it is somewhat a bold thing , for a particular man to be the head of a party , and they to engage as representing a considerable party , to engage to send commissioners to agree upon instructions ; this is very bold . but , my lord , god be thanked , many of those that were seduced at first , were wise , and did come in before the last ; and did not strut it out , my lord , with states and justice , as that man hath done before now , and at present , even out-facing justice , and boldly , i ●ay , wiping his lips ; he hath done no offence . my lord , they were so bold with scotland , that there was a known agent there maintained and kept , between scotland and them ; and i will tell him the gentlemans name , his name was mr. sterks ; and , my lord , when he went away , the act requiring those of the scotish nation to be gone , that gentleman did supply him with money himself ; and others gave him eight or ten pounds in his purse to carry him away . my lord , i believe he knows this , and i am sorry , that that gentleman that hath gone along with us in much of this war , that he should at last , so much betray his own discretion , as rather to trust a reconciled enemy , then to be true to his own friends . i say , he trusts a reconciled enemy , and a weak enemy , and that he will think , and will know , that they might betray him ; as justly may be done , when men so cast themselves upon the party of the king , and queen , and peircy , and jermine ; it is no great policy nor discretion to have so many of councel : they say , three keeps councel ; but this gentleman hath now , , , in scotland , france , and holland , and agitations between them , and frequent intercourses . my lord , i shall now call the witnesses out to you , which when mr. love doth see , himself will say , are honest men , and to be believed . mr. love. my lord , i beseech you let me speak a word . at. gen. my lord , he hath heard his charge in particular ; and those things , which if he be ingenuous to himself , and his own conscience , he cannot but know we shall prove them ; and before we prove them , i desire to hear , whether or no he will confess them . mr. love. i hope this court will not hearken to the insinuations of instruments of state , who are well rewarded for their eager prosecution of men in such a condition as i am in ; it is an easie matter , through flourishes of law , and strains of wit , to stir up the mindes of my judges against me . l. pres . you have heard the matter opened to you , which you cannot in any christian , or godly conscience , or understanding , but acknowledge , that such secrets as these you were privy to , and came to your hand ; you cannot , before god and man , do better then to confess these , which you know by the urging of them upon you , are come to our knowledge . mr. love. will you give me leave to express my self , as to these things which i am now charged with , i do declare and protest , in the presence of god and this great assembly , that i never wrote any letter ▪ either to the king of scots , or to the queen his mother , or to the church or state of scotland , in the general , or to any particular person of the scotish nation , since the wars began between england and scotland , to this day . i do declare also in the presence of the same god , i never received any letters written to me , either from the king of scotland , or queen his mother , or from the church or state of scotland , in general , or from any particular person of the scotish nation , since the wars began between the two nations , to this day . i declare and protest likewise , in the presence of the same god , i never collected , or gave , or lent , one penny of money , either to send into scotland , or into any forreign part , to the king , or queen his mother , or to the church or state of scotland , in general , or to any particular person of the scotish nation , since the wars began , to this very day . and as to these particulars , i have said it often , i am as innocent , and as harmless , as the least childe ; and if you will take the aggravating of these circumstances against me , and will proceed upon aggravations of the crimes against me , i hope god will help me with more peace of conscience to undergo the censure , then you shall have to inflict it . and as for that gentleman , that made that great relation to you of the treaty of jersey ; for my part , i am as great a stranger to all those transactions , as any here . i never saw the face of titus , nor did i ever send to him or receive any thing from him . at. gen. my lord , we shall call the witnesses . captain p●tter is called into the court. mr. love. i except and protest against this witness , for he hath been already examined in private , and hath made his confession there , and that is equivalent to a conviction ; and i hope , the court in justice , will not admit of this man for a witness . l. pres . you shall have justice , as well as ever any jesuite had . at. gen. you see now what mr. love drives at , and you will finde his jesuitical evasions : and , my lord , let him be asked , whether ever this man was before this court , or any committee of this court ; and i think in justice , you ought to examine witnesses before hand : but it is clear and evident , that this man hath been a party with him . i do humbly conceive , it is so clear and evident , that rather i should except against the witness , as an incompetent witness , then mr. love , because he hath been a party with him ; but i desire he may be a competent witness , and one in whom there is more ingenuity , then there is in mr. love. mr. love. sir , before he swears , i beseech you ask him this question , whether he hath not been threatned with death , if he would not witness against me . l. pres . you cannot over-rule us with your beseechings , and beseechings , it will not do it ; your over-importunity shall not prevail with us . m. love. let god prevail with you : though he may be legalis testis before conviction , yet he cannot be so after conviction . the clerk ▪ the evidence you shall give , between the keepers of the liberties of england , and the prisoner at the bar , shall be the truth , the whole truth , and nothing but the truth ; so help you god. he is sworn . l. pres . now look upon the god of truth , and speak the truth . c. pot. i shall speak the truth . at. gen. that gentleman was pleased to trust others , as i said , even reconciled enemies , and fell from his friends . i do grant , that this gentleman hath confest ; and if every honest man confess his fault , that is no offence ; for an honest man questioned for a fact , to confess the truth thereof . i have not heard that that is no good law ; and i do say , that before ever this man came to be examined , we did know it all , and perchance from those that this gentleman thought fitter to trust , then us ; but we did so know it before , that every circumstance was opened by us ; and we did convince this gentleman , and others , though not mr love : but mr. love saith , he must not accuse himself , he must not answer ; but this gentleman did more ingeniously . i do affirm , that he was questioned to every particular , before he answered : and we do know , that the state hath long hands and ears . now , my lord , if you please , ask m. potter what he knows of this business of sending to , and receiving from scotland . l. pres . you are upon your oath , and in the presence of god , then whom there is no higher upon the earth , that is in the seat of justice , and without relation ( as mr. love saith ) to the parties ; therefore tell the truth of your knowledge , in the transaction of this treacherous treason , that hath now been above two years in the passages , between the presbyterian party . at. gen. no , my lord , we will not own that upon them ; there are some that do stile themselves so , the presbyterian party , that are consciencious persons , and pious , and godly men ; and i should do them wrong , should i lay it upon them ; but that which i do , is against those that do undertake to stile themselves , the heads of them . l. pres . begin then with that which concerns mr. drakes agency . cap. pot. i have taken an oath to speak the whole truth in this business ; but that is , the truth i know . i desire i may not be prest to things that i have onely heard . at. gen. you must , and from whom you heard them . cap. pot. i was examined several times , and had a wide latitude there ; and then i was to speak to every truth , as i thought and heard ; but now i have taken an oath to speak the truth between the state and this gentleman : and i beseech you , that i may be held close to those things , and i will give you the fullest and fairest account i can . what i said before , was in order to the discovery of the thing ; much of which , i had by hear-say from others , and in that i may mistake , in persons , places , and times : what i have done my self , and what i know this gentleman hath done , that may be put to me fully . mr. love. the witness must so speak , that we have seen and heard , that do we testifie . at. gen. your doctrine will not pass here . mr. love. it is scripture , sir , and it behoves me to speak , for i am upon my life . at. gen. mr. potter , speak what you know , and from whom , and i desire there may be no glosses put there , by those , who i am sure , cannot do it . i ask you first of the proceedings , and ●ending to scotland , and back again to england ; and what you know of it , and from whom . c. pot. my lord , the committee , that examined me , knows i was not priv● to the first transaction : i did say indeed something of it by hear-say , and i did likewise say , that mr. drake told it me ; but i may erre in that particular , possibly m. drake did not tell me so ; for as i apprehend , i said , i did think it did put a necessity upon the king to agree with the scots ; and then having seen some papers , and conferr'd with that relation others have made , i collected the truth of them , as far as i did know ; but now i am upon my oath , let me therefore come to the matter ; i spake then many things as i heard , which i cannot affirm upon my oath . l. pres . we must judge of what you have heard . c. pot. my lord , i cannot be certain of that . at. gen. that is receded from . but what do you know of masons coming over here ? c. pot. i know nothing of mason , i saw him but once , and at that time there past nothing between us of publick concernment , as i remember . att. gen. what was the answer that was returned to that which mason did bring ? c. pot. that i can speak nothing to of my own knowledge ; i heard he was come hither , and was here to see the tempers of men , and to see how things were like to go . att. gen. my lord , ask him from whom he came ? c. pot. it was said he came from my lord piercy , but these things are so remote from me , that i can say nothing to them of my own knowledge . att. gen. my lord , let him speak what he knows about reconciling the presbyterian parties . c. pot. i think others can speak more close to that ; i can say nothing but by hear-say ; i heard that mason did indeavour here to finde how the affections of the people stood , and whether there was a necessity that the king should comply with the scots , or with the cavaliering party ; and that he found a necessity of complying with the scots . l. pres . what assistance should he have from hence ? c. pot. i know no more of mason then this . att. gen. my lord , ask him if there were not some letters returned by mason , in answer to what he brought ? c. pot. not that i know of . l. pres . did you hear of it ? c. pot. i think i did hear of it , but i cannot tell by whom : i think by william drake . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether he knows of any petition sent to the king of scots ? c. pot. i do not know of any , but have heard so . l. pres . by whom did you hear so ? c pot. by william drake . l. pres . who did drake say did carry the petition ? c pot. i cannot tell . att. gen. do you know of any answer returned from piercy and jermin ? c. pot. i know nothing at all of these things . l. pres . were not you invited to the meeting ? c. pot. yes , i was . att. gen. what did he tell you ? c. pot. nothing at all : we had nothing but common discourse there . att. gen. who was there ? c. pot. there was william drake , major alford , and i think mason and titus were there . l pres . do you remember any more ? c. pot. i do not remember , nor can i certainly say they were there . l. pres . were not you prest or moved to go to jersey ? c. pot. not that i know of . l. pres . did not titus offer to go ? c. pot. i cannot well tell ; but at that time , or some other , he either was spoken to to go , or offered to go . l. pres . how long ago ? c. pot. my lord , i cannot speak this of my own knowledge ; but i have heard say , i think , a month after the time . l. pres . had he any money to bear his charges ? c. pot. i know of none . att. gen. well , what meetings afterwards was there in m. loves study ? c. pot. i have been at m. loves severall times . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether he was not present in m. loves study , when a letter was there read from titus , and who was present there , and what were the debates upon it , and what was the contents of the letter , and whether it was not for some to come to calice to him . c. pot. the letter i well remember ; i cannot say it was in m. loves study , nor can i say it was in his house , i do not know m. love was present ; the letter i have seen it , or heard of i● , it did desire some to come to calice about the treaty ; and i remember well , that major alford told me he did go to him . l. pres . what was the contents of the letter ? c. pot. i cannot well remember that i have seen it ; but i have either seen it or heard of it , i cannot tell which . l. pres . you must be true to the state , and speak the truth . c. pot. my lord , i would be true to the state and to the gentleman at the bar too . and my lord , i can say no more to it , i either saw it or heard of it , i cannot tell which . i am upon my oath , my lord ; the letter did desire some body to come to calice to him . att gen. was not this meeting in m. loves study ? c. pot. i cannot say it was in his house , i rather think it was not . l pres . was he present ? c. pot. i cannot say he was present , i think he was not present , i think m alford was sent to the tavern . the papers of captain potters examinations were here produced by the attorney general , and by the clerk read to him . att. gen. my lord , these were his examinations . c. pot. i intreat this may be remembred ( which i premised at fi●st ) i had a latitude then that i have not now , i am now upon my oath , and desire to be true to my own conscience , and to the state , and to this gentleman ; i have made ( it is true ) such a confession as this is , and i believe the greatest part of it to be true , according to the latitude i spake it in ; but now i am upon my oath , and now i am to speak knowingly ; the substance of the thing is true , i believe , that he was sent , and sent upon such things , so much i do verily believe to be true , upon my oath , but of the places i●annot ●annot speak . att. gen. alford did go to calice and return , and how many daies was it between his going and returning ? and where did he give an account of what he did receive from titus a● calice ? c pot. it is a hard matter for me to speak to the time , i think about a week ; and for the relati●n he made when he came back , as i take it , i met him at the kings head in w●lbrook upon his landing ; whether he made the relation to me there , or afterwards at m loves , whether i heard of the meet●ng● or whether i was at the meeting , i cannot say . i am sure he himself made me the relation ; but whether there , or any other where , i cannot make out . att. gen. upon your oath , did not major alford make returne of the answer in master loves study ? c. pot i cannot say it , but i think it was there . att. gen. was master love present ? c. pot. i think he was present , and i think it was in his house ; i am sure major alford made me a particular relation between him and i. att. gen. was sterks the scotch agent there or no ? c. pot. i cannot say he was . l. pres . was it read in master loves study ? c. pot. i cannot say i was there . his examination was again read to him . att. gen. what was the substance of the kings letter ? c. pot. it is so much out of my memory , that i scarce remember there was a letter , it is so much out of my minde . more of his examination was read to him . l. pres . what do you remember of this now , is this true ? c. pot. i remember i have heard as much , and i believe it is true . l. pres . have you not heard the letter read ? c. pot. i do not know there was a letter sent ; nor do i know there was a letter read . i desire to speak the truth ; i had a latitude then , that i have not now ; i had then such an information shewed me , and i spake to it so far as i thought it was true ; these papers you shew me as my examination , were not of my framing . the clerk. look upon them , is not this your hand ? c. pot. i know it is my hand . att. gen. my lord , i did go to the tower to him , and was with him , and did examine him . my lord , here be those that will prove it , that himself did confesse , and said it was true ; and he took time himself to inform himself , and had ( as he said ) other mens examinations , and informations by ; and he did adde and amend , and gave it under his hand . this is the truth , after several examinations . and he had papers by him , and did correct them himself , and brought them under his own hand written by himself , these very things . and my lord , ask him whether he did not write these things first with his own hand , and bring them to the committee of examinations . l. pres . whether did you not bring in your own examinations , and what you could inform , written by your own hands ? c. pot. my lord , that is my hand , and what is there i must own as mine . but i hope you will let me distinguish between what i delivered then , as i heard it and thought , and what i deliver posi●●vely . i do say it is true now , as i have heard . l. pres . why did you not say of heare-say then , as well as now ? att. gen. upon the oath you have taken , whether do you not know this of your own knowledge ? c pot. upon the oath i have taken ( and i desire to speak it in gods presence ) i do not remember that i saw the letter from the king , or heard the letter read , or the copy , nor can i say alford told me so much , though i think he did , yet i do not know he did . m ▪ love. i desire you would take notice , whether this be faire , that mr. attorney should help the witnesse , by putting things into his mouth ? att. gen. my lord , i can help the witnesse by asking him questions . c. pot. my lord , no man shall so far tamper with me , as to make me say an untruth . att. gen. my lord , pray ask him , whether he did not write these papers , most of them , with his own hands . c. pot. true , but to open to the committee the ground of this businesse ; but i did not expect to swear to every one of these particulars : att. gen. my lord , ask him , whether after this return was made there was not a meeting , and instructions made about the commission to be sent to bredah ? c. pot. my lord , to that , i have heard so much ; but i cannot speak it positively . i saw no commission nor instructions , i heard there was both . i do not know by whom i have heard it , i think by william drake . l. pres . were you not at mr. loves house when they were drawn up , and mr. love corrected them . ? c. pot. i never saw the instructions . m. love. nor i neither . l. pres . did you not heare so ? c. pot. i did . l. pres . to whom to be directed ? c. pot. to captain titus . l. pres . and to who else . c. pot. the commissions and instructions were to be directed to my lord willoughby of parham , col. graves , major gen. massey , capt. titus , and alderman bunce . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether he hath not heard mr. love tell him so . c. pot. never in my life . l. pres . were you not then present at his house ? c. pot. i know not that i was , nor can i remember . his examination was again read . att. gen. whether were you not at m. loves house ? and was there not a letter agreed upon to massey , and bailie , and titus ? c. pot. i have been several times at m. loves house . l. pres . whether were you not at m. loves house with these correspondents ? c. pot. i have been several times at his house with them ; and i have been oftner there upon other occasions . l. pres . name them . c. pot. i mean with m. love , and m. jackson , and m. robinson , and major alford , and m. drake , and m. gibbons . l. pres . what was then agreed upon about letters when you were at m. loves house ? c. pot. i have a very bad memory , i cannot speak to time , and places , and persons ; such letters i have heard of were written , i professe i can speak no more knowingly . i never had a hand in any one letter , but such letters i have heard of . l. pres . upon what account did you meet at m. loves house ? c. pot. i met there sometimes upon a friendly account , sometimes upon a christian account , and sometimes to hear news , and sometimes to tell news . l. pres . where did you meet with these persons , with william drake , and these so often mentioned ? c. pot. my lord , there was a correspondency in point of news . l. pres . between whom ? c. pot. between capt . titus there , and william drake here , and he would tell us many times news there . l. pres . do you know titus was imployed as an agent hence ? c. pot. i think he was . l. pres . had he money collected ? c. pot. i do not know of one penny i lent him , and i never contributed to him . att. gen. my lord , ask him , whether himself did not upon an occasion contribute ten pounds , and bring it into m. loves parlour . c. pot. i confesse that . att. gen. for a table-book that was written in sack , do you know of any such thing ? c. pot. i do . my lord , i went to william drake in his retirement , and he was writing out of his papers some letters in a table-book , which he told me was in sack , as i take it . l. pres . why did he write them in sack ? c. pot. i take it , because it should not be discovered . l. pres . do you not know to whom the letters written in sack were sent ? c. pot. i know not ; but he told me to bayley and titus . l. pres . where was bayley and titus then ? c. pot. i know not where titus was , but i think bayley was in scotland . l. pres . after drake was gone , where were your meetings usually ? c. pot. many times at m. loves house . l. pres . when you did meet there , what did you meet upon , was it not to receive messages from titus , and massey , and bunce , and bailey , and to return answers ? c. pot. we had sometimes letters read there , but from whom they came , or to whom , i believe few can tell , i cannot tell ; something of news we have heard , of affairs ; that was the occasion of my coming sometimes . att. gen. did m. love never tell you the occasions of those meetings , and presse you to lend money to furnish massey and titus ? c. pot. i can say nothing to that . att. gen. what say you to the private fasts ? c. pot. there were private fasts . att. gen. what , for a blessing upon the treaty at bredah ? c. pot. there were fasts kept , but i never understood they were for any other end , but for the sins of , and judgements upon the nations ; and for the most part there have been hundreds of men and women there . att. gen. did m. love often officiate there ? c. pot. he hath preached and prayed . l. pres . did any pray for a blessing upon the treaty ? c. pot. i cannot say so . att. gen. what say you to those letters that came hither after the fight at dunbar ? c. pot. my lord , after the fight at dunbar there came letters from bailey , and titus , and massey . l. pres . and where were these published ? c. pot. my lord , i can say no more ; i have heard of these letters too . l. pres . were not you present at m. loves house when they were read or made known there ? c. pot. possibly i was ; i cannot say i heard the letters read there , i did hear letters by a private hand occasionally afterwards . att. gen. by the oath you have taken , were you not present at m. loves house , when those foresaid letters from titus , and bailey , and massey , were published and read ? c. pot. my lord , i cannot say i was there , and i dare not say i was not ; it is a yeer ago ; i believe i was there several times when several letters were read , and it may be when those were read . l. pres . whether was there not five pounds given to a messenger that brought them ? c. pot. i have heard there was , but i do not know it . l. pres . did you contribute any thing towards it ? c pot. i think , i did contribute ten shillings . l. pres . vvho contributed besides your selfe . c. pot. i know not . att. gen. vvas there not at mr. love's a promise of armes , or letters ? c. pot. my lord , i cannot say so . att. gen. vvat can you say ? c. pot. i have heard there was . att. gen. by whom have you heard it ? c. pot. i cannot say by whom , or who told me so , either mr. alford , or adams , or far , or some of those men that used to meet there ; for it was common , when i was not there , ●or some or other to meet with me . att. gen. did mr. love contribute to the messenger ? c. pot. i cannot say , he did . att. gen. my lord , i do not ask him one question , but what himselfe hath confest . c. pot. i do remember such letters i have heard did come , but never saw those letters ; i do likewise remember i heard there was five pounds gathered for the messenger , and i do believe i contributed ten shillings towards it . att. gen. vvho else gave besides your selfe , and who received it ? c. pot. i professe , i know not . att. gen. vvhether was there not a declaration to the church of scotland then published ? c. pot. the d●claration , i know nothing of it , you remembred me of it at the committee , when i was first examined , but i knew nothing of it . att. gen. my lord , ask him , whether the state and church did not write for armes and ammunition at that time after the fight . c. pot. my lord , i have heard so much , but cannot speak positively or particularly to it ; i have heard of such letters , but cannot tell by whom : i saw them not . att. gen. to whom were they directed ? c. pot. i never heard who wrote them , nor to whom they were directed . att. gen. was there not one letter with l. upon i● ? c. pot. my lord , about the letter l. i did receive those letters my self , there was an l written upon them ; my lord , these letters came from bamfield out of scotland ; there was in these letters a large narrative of the affairs of scotland , from dunbar sight , to the time of the date of them , which i think was about christmas ; this is a thing , i know better then ( i am affraid i give offence by saying , i think , and i heard , and that i cannot speak positively ; but of this i can speak positively . ) bamfield gave an account therein of a narrative of two sheets of paper , and i , and another , or two , opened them , and i carried these letters to mr. loves , there was one or two more , with me : mr. jaquell , and i think dr. drake , i cannot well tell . there was a narrative of the scots affairs , and a letter from namelesse persons , which we supposed to be from mr. baily , and from my lords of argile , and lowden , and lothian , and others , whose names i doe not remember : these letters wrote for ten thousand pounds , for buying of a●mes , and hiring of shipping ; these letters we disliked , and we dissented from them , and agreed to give a negative answer ; but we thought fit for our own safety , to raise some money for the messenger , and bamfield , to which i contributed ten pounds . i carried all these letters to mr. loves ; one or two were opened , i think we opened them , the narrative and my lord of argiles letter i opened before i understood what they were . att. gen. why did you carry them to mr. loves ? c. pot. there was a great deale of news in them : there was a letter l. and i did in my examination say , i conceived it was to mr. love : but now upon my oath , i do not remember very well , and i do not think it was to mr. love. i do confesse , i carried these letters to mr. loves , i , and mr. jaquel ; these letters were opened , but whether mr. love opened them , or i , or the other , i cannot tell . att. gen. with whom did you leave them ? c. pot. i brought them away all of them . att. gen. vvere they not read ? c. pot. they were all read . att. gen. he confesseth further , he paid ten pounds : to whom were the letters directed ? c. pot. the letters had no direction at all upon them , i believe . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether there was not a sum of four or five hundred pounds agreed to be raised . c. pot. the advise that was given to that , was , that we should do nothing in it , and we did nothing in it more then i tell you , i carried those letters to them , and had discourse of them , and resolved to do nothing in them . att. gen. why did you carry them to mr. loves ? c. pot. i went for advise what i should do in them . att. gen. my lord , pray ask him concerning the foure or five hundred pounds , and for what , and whether this discourse was at mr. love's house , whether there was not a proposition for raising of four or five hundred pounds , and for whom this was to be raised , and where to be raised , and by what means ? c. pot. i heard there was , i do not know the place where : to this i contributed ten pounds , i brought it one evening to mr. loves house , and there i left it . att. gen. where was this money agreed to be raised ? c. pot. i cannot speak to that . att. gen. vvho took the subscriptions ? c. pot. i cannot speak to that neither . att. gen. did mr. love contribute ? c. pot. i cannot say he did . att. gen. was it in his house ? c. pot. i do not know that i subscribed at all , i do not think there was any subscriptions ; i am sure , i never subscribed my name . att. gen. when you came into mr. loves palour , and left the ten pounds , did you not give him a twitch by the hand ? c pot. i cannot say so : his examination was again read . l. pres . is this true ? c. pot. the substance of it is true . l. pres . of your own knowledg ? c. pot. of my own knowledge , that i left so much money . the clerk reads more of his examination . c. pot. this is a section i never worded , nor phrased my selfe , i have heard as much as this comes to , but cannot speak it knowingly . att. gen. did you not write this your self ? c. pot. i belive not , i cannot positively say , that mr. love either drew up the letter , or received the letter . att. gen. you say he received the letter from your owne hands ? c. pot. but not the letter from titus , and baily . att. gen. do you know of a way of correspondency laid at kendal , or no ? c. pot. i heard there was such a correspondency . att. gen. by whom ? c. pot. i cannot say by whom . att. gen. do you know that groves was sent to look for letters there ? c. pot. yes . l. pres . did mr. love know of it ? c. pot. i cannot say he did . att. gen. vvhat had groves for his pains for going ? c. pot. ten pounds . at. gen. from whom ? c. p. i paid it . at. gen. did you receive any of it again ? c. pot. i did receive some of it , i received two s. by severall persons . att. gen. from whom ? c. pot. from gibbons , and alford , and far. at. gen. not from m. love. c. p. i do not know i ever had a farthing from him in my life . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether there was not letters returnrd to bamfield again , and by whom . c. pot. my lord j did receive a letter that j suppose was to bamfield . l. pres . from whom did you receive it ? c. pot. jt was left in my shop . l. pres . by whom ? c. pot. j cannot say by whom . l. pres . whom do you conceive it came from ? c. pot. j think from m. love or doctor drake . att. gen. do you conceive so ? my lord , ask him whether mr. love or doctor drake was not appointed to draw the letter . c. pot. when we were together , there was a negative answer resolved upon , and this answer to the best of my remembrance was agreed to be drawn up by mr. love , and doctor drake : but j received this letter . at. gen. and who received the thirty pounds . c. pot. j cannot tel . at. gen. but you sent the letter . c. pot. j did . at. gen. ask him whether he did not send for m. love , and what discourse past between them , since he was in prison . c. pot. j did send for m. love , and he did come to me , and j desired his counsell as a minister , and j told him upon what score j was questioned , then j was questioned upon m cook only , and he gave me encouragement onely as a friend and minister of the gospel ought to do . at. gen. what was that ? c. pot. he wisht me to make a christian use of my afflictions ; and gave me some other instructions , we had an hours discourse , and it was all to this purpose : he wisht me to make a christian use of my restraint , and to labour to get christian wisdome and fortitude . l. pres . what did he say more to you ? c. pot. my lord , no more past between us , and j gave him an account of what questions j was examined upon in cooks businesse . l. pres . did you give him an account ? c. pot. j have said so , and he did advise me to prudence , and fortitude , and courage . at gen. did he not advise you to be couragious , and that unlesse you discover one another , you were safe enough ? c. pot. my lord , my keeper was with me , and we had no such discourse . at. gen. did he not wish you to be silent ? c. pot. either then or since he did tel me there was a letter came from m. drake , that told him titus his man had taken some letters from titus ; but he could not conceive how it could concern me . att. gen. but did he discover nothing , and wish you to be prudent for your selfe , and them ? c. pot. he did not then . att. gen. vvhen then ? c. pot. i saw him not since , and he told me of bamfields man. att. gen. how came it about mr. love spake with you ? c. pot. i did prevail with my keeper to go with me to dinner , and to take a glasse of wine , and then i provided for mr. loves coming to me . att. gen. what hath mistresse love said unto you ? c. pot. i saw her ever and anon . att. gen. what hath she said to you ? c. pot. she hath wish'd me with tears to have a care of her husband , and not to discover any thing , i think she hath . att. gen. did not mr. love say then , that he had been at a fast , where you were remembred ? c. pot. he did so . att. gen. my lord , i confesse , i was with this man in the tower , as i am bound to do by my place , to examine him ; he had made his examination before i came thither , and i brought it with me . my lord , i did ask him questions , he did answer me upon knowledge , he did confesse the truth , but told them , mr. atturney generall was pleased to help him to particulars , and bring them to his remembrance . c. pot. i professe , if it had been to save my life , i could not affirm them , but you putting me in mind of it , i did know of it . att. gen. at the committee of examinations , then he had more particulars told him , and he did confesse he did know them all , and he may give you an account , whether he did not give an account under his own hand : my lord , i am not abused , but the councel of state , and the parliament are abused , and if this man should do this wrong to mr. love , and informe the court and councel , and the man be brought upon his life , because he hath affirmed it , and that severall times before severall committees . this man must not scape unpunish'd , if for no other fault but this , to accuse a man before authority , and when he comes to his oath to deny every word of it . captain fisher will witnesse , that he did bring all under his own hand , and upon my credit , he did speak as fully as we did open , and much more fully ; and i answered , upon here-say , how do you know it ? and he said he did know it , he did remember it , and he did put it down positively , and that when mr. drake went , away , all the meetings were at mr. loves house , and mr. love did still declare the occasion of the meetings , and the letters were opened by him , and the discourse upon them ; and every word he said upon his own knowledg . c. pot. i do confesse again , that before captain fisher , and mr. atturney did prompt me — att. gen. prompt you , sir ! c. pot. before he did remember me of them , i had forgot them , as if i had never heard them ; but it is one thing to remember a thing as i have heard , and as j conceive to be true , and another thing to swear to it positively : and the paper allowed me this latitude , some of it , i have heard , the rest j believe , and some j know , and upon this account j believe it is all true . att. gen. my lord , 't is possible , j might wish him to expresse what he did know himselfe , and what he did know by relation of others , and so did set it down , and he did it fully and clearly ; and after all this , brought it in again written with his own hand to the councell of state. att. gen. my lord , if you please , captain fisher may go for the originall under his own hands . clerk the originall cannot be ●ound . mr. love. here is nothing at all that concerns me about the businesse of titus , in jersie , and about the letter from titus , and the copie of the letter from the king ; he tels you he doth not know it was in my ●ouse , he tels you it was but a copie , not the originall . captain pot●er withdraws . major alford called into the court , and takes his oath . att. gen. my lord , let him declare what he knows either by himselfe , or others , and of his imployment at calice : make the whole narrative as much as you can remember . major alford . my lord , j was one morning wish'd to go with william drake to the swan at dowgate , heating there was a gentleman lately come from the prince , where j should hear all the news from beyond the seas ; when j came there , it was one captain titus , one whom j had never seen before , and he gave a relation of the good disposition of the prince , and how inclinable he was to take the covenant , and to cast off the cavaliering party , and those about him , if the●e were an opportunity to make it known , that there was a considerable party in england that would stick close to the ends of the covenant . upon that sir , my selfe , and some others that were there , did think we were bound in duty , and in relation to the covenant , to presse the ends of the covenant , for the prince to take it , and to prosecute the ends of it . and for that captain titus said , if we would appoint another meeting , he would draw up something by way of attestation or petition to the prince to that purpose . my lord , we did meet at the bear in breadstreet , and there he did draw forth something that he had framed to that purpose , and he read it ; and afterwards ( not at that time ) it was agreed upon to be sent over to the prince . the substance of it , was to presse the prince to apply himself to take the covenant , and to prosecute the ends of it ; and to cast off all his cavaliering party about him , which had brought so much mischief to his father , and would do the like to him . this captain titus drew up , and this i believe was sent over , for titus undertook to send it over . i did ask how the prince should be made to believe , that this coming from an inconsiderable party , as we were , should come under the notion of the presbyterian party of england , for it went under that notion ? he said , he should undertake that by the means of my lord piercy . and the petition that was agreed upon , he did send over , i believe , for i did not carry it to the post-house , but he did undertake to do it . afterwards he went over himself , and when he was over , he had information that there was notice of his being here , and of the businesse he was upon ; and therefore he writ over to william drake ( as m. drake told me ) that he did desire some of us that knew of the businesse , should be sent over to him , to receive that account from him which he had in the businesse . so m. drake did perswade me to go over to calice ; and having some businesse of my own , i did go over to calice . i went from my house on the friday night , and i was back again on the tuesday following : and he did give me an account of that transaction . the substance of it was this : it was about his own troubles he had undergone there by the cavalie●ing party , in managing that businesse . he had likewise been imprisoned , and they told him they would try him as a spy ; and that they urged hard against him ; and that he was in that condition till my lord liberton , the scotch commissioner , came over ; and by his means he had accesse to , and favour with the prince . and that was the substance of all . he said the king was averse to the covenant , not of himself , but by reason of those counsels that were about him . and this was the substance of that account he gave me of his transaction there at jersey , in reference to the businesse he went upon . and this he gave me in writing , which i brought over to deliver to m. drake , for it was directed to him , which i did deliver . afterwards master drake carried them to master loves house , where they were read . and that is all as to that businesse . then afterwards there was a commission , they called it a commission , it was agreed upon among us , to be sent over to my lord willoughby of parham and massey , and i think graves and titus , that they should agitate and act for us at bredah , and to advise with the scotch commissioners that were there , in the behalf of the presbyterian party here in england ; and that is all in relation to that . afterward m. drake read to me the copy of a letter in characters , which he had written himself in his own back-shop , which he told me should be sent to the queen , which was to perswade her to perswade the king , as he came that way , to close with the scots , for that was the likeliest way to make good his own interest ; but that was at m. drakes house , onely between him and i. afterwards m. drake told me he had disbursed money about receiving of letters , and receiving of news , and did wish me that i would let him have ten pounds , and said he would speak to some others of his acquaintance to do the like , and if he could get up a considerable sum , i should have part back again , for he said the charge was too great for him to undertake ; and i do think he had ten pounds of me for that . after dunbar fight , there was i and some others at m. loves , in his great lower room , where was a letter read that was said to be from major general massey , that gave an account of the businesse of dunbar ; and also did write for arms , i know not how many thousands ; and to that purpose , that they might be provided by the way of holland . but upon that , all that were there did say — i heard no man speak of providing arms or any such thing . he writ in his letter , that for his own necessities , and captain titus that was there , that a motion might be made for providing some money to send over for their supply ; and it was then said , we were so inconsiderable , and so few , that the sum spoken of could not be done ; and therefore it was moved , that every one should do by himself and friends what he could . this was the substance of that . att. gen. i believe , my lord , he hath dealt ingenuously with you . this in the generall . i pray you ask him , what he knows concerning any letters that should have been sent at the beginning of the change of this government to scotland from any part of england . major alford . for that i know nothing ; but heard mr. drake say , that he had correspondency with some in scotland , and i have heard him use one mr. baileys name ; and he had a cypher which they writ by . att gen. for the swan at dowgate , he gave relation of that ; but who was present then ? maj. alford . truly my lord , it is so long since that i cannot positively tell ; but i am sure i can remember there was m. huntington , and william drake , and lieut. col. bains : and i cannot tell , my lord , i think there was one mr. hall. att. gen. was mr. gibbons there or not ? maj. alf. truly , my lord , i cannot tell whether he was there at that time or no. att. gen. my lord , he saies titus at that time did give relation of the prince and his party . can you remember what that relation was ? and do you know whether this was not afterward communicated , and to whom ? maj. alf. i have given you the substance of it ; but for communicating of it , i knew it from none but onely from those there . att. gen. titus took time to draw it up ? maj. alf. he did so ; and at the next meeting at breadstreet , there were the same men again ; and i think at the same time there was col. barton . att. gen. was there no mention then ( when it was propounded to you to be a considerable party ) was it not said the ministers were to be acquainted with it ? maj. alf. it was asked titus , how the king should be possessed that this came from the presbyterian party in england , because it was agreed upon that there should be no names used to it ? he said there needed none , but onely the ingagement of the ministers in it . att. gen. what ministers ? maj alf. truly he did not speak a word of any man that i know of . att. gen. was it not then propounded , that titus should be sent to the scotch king before commissioners came to him , to have a correspondency settled between him and some others here ? maj. alf. i cannot say at that time , but afterwards . whether at that time or any other j cannot tell , but one time titus said , he had learned from my lord piercy , which had hastened him over , that this businesse was of that concernment , that they that did undertake it should be there before the scotch commissioners did come . and thereupon titus ( as william drake told me , for this was not at the meeting ) was perswaded to undertake to go about this businesse . att. gen. whether was there not some directions given for a letter to be written to the queen , to prepare the articles with the scots ? maj. alf. i cannot say any thing but what william drake told me privately between him and i , as to that purpose , a letter to the queen . att. gen. what was that ? maj. alf. i did tell your lordship . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether he was not at supper with titus ? maj. alf. no my lord , i was not there when he offered himself to go , as i know of . att. gen. what money had titus to bear his charges ? maj. alf. thirty pounds . att. gen. from whom . maj. alf. from william drake singly . l. pres . did not drake gather it up again ? maj. alf. my lord , i cannot tell ; i know nothing of any man , but what i did my self . att. gen. we were now speaking of the meeting at mr. loves house , and of titus letter being read , and he sent . let him give a particular relation of that again . i make bold to ask him questions to help his memory . maj. alf. the letter that was read of titus , was not at mr. loves house , as i know of ( but mr. drake for all things came to him ; and we knew nothing but onely from him ; for the correspondency was setled between william drake and captain titus ) nor at any publick meeting that i know of , but what drake told me . l. pres . but you were at mr. loves house , you said but now . maj. alf. i was , but not upon this accompt , it was after i had been over ; for i do not know that ever i was at mr. loves house , or ever spake with him till i went over : if i have , i have forgot that ever i spake in my life to mr. love about it , till after i came from calice ; and then i did bring over a relation , and gave an account of it concerning titus his transactions . l. pres . that account you gave at mr. loves house ? maj. alf. no , my lord , i gave it to william drake , for it was directed to him ; and it was three or foure daies after that we met at mr. loves house , where mr drake read the thing . l. pres . at what time was it ? maj alford . at the time when the scotch king was at jersey . att. gen. whether did you bring from titus a copy of a letter from the king ? maj. alford . that i forgot ; but titus did shew me a letter , at leastwise he said so , that he had it from the king , that he sent to this presbyterian party . and , my lord , he did copy out the letter , and the copy he gave me , which i did bring over . l. pres . to whom did you deliver it ? maj. alf. i delivered it to william drake , i gave it mr. drake himself , and i think at his own house ; i think it was the same , and that it was read at mr. loves house . the substance of it was this , as he told me , that he took in good part the petition or application that was made to him ; and if ever god did restore him , and that he was in a condition , then he should think of it . l. pres . what did he speak of a non-compliance with the present government , and by whom ? maj. alf. i do not remember a word of that . att. gen. what said he concerning the scots , and what he would do for the ministers , if god restored him ? maj. alf. i cannot tell any such passage , nor do i remember the particulars of it . l. pres . the letter was then read you say ? maj. alf. i suppose it was the same that i gave to mr. drake , but i cannot say it was the same , because it was not in my custody . att gen. did not you propose to send fifty pounds to titus ? maj. alf. for that , i heard say that there was fifty pounds sent to him , but whether it were or no , i know nothing of it , nor did contribute to it , nor knew nothing of it . maj. alf. did not you make a narrative your self of what you received by word of mouth from titus ? maj. alf. it is very like i did speak of it to this purpose i tell you of , i do not know particularly what i said . at. gen. did you not receive an account from titus of his transaction at jersey ? m. alf. i did . att. gen. did you not give an account of that you received from him ? m. alf he gave it me in writing , and i delivered it to mr. drake . att. gen. but when you met at mr. loves house afterwards , did you not make some narrative of what you received from him by word of mouth ? m. alf. i had it not by word of mouth , but onely by the delivery of papers to me , which he could not bring over with safety . l. pres . were those papers read at that meeting ? m. alf. i tell you , my lord , i delivered them to mr. drake , and drake did reade some papers , and j believe they were the same , but j cannot say they were the same , for they were out of my custody . att. gen. who then were there present ? m. alf. there was mr. love , dr. drake , mr. case , major adams , mr. gibbons , and capt. far. truly , j cannot particularly tell . at. gen. this was given him at mr. loves house , and mr. love present . my lord , i pray you ask him whether titus his message was not well approved of , and the letter of thanks to be returned , and the hundred pounds in money ? m. alford . i do not remember any of these things you speak of now . att. gen. what do you remember was said concerning him there ? ma. alf. i do not know what was said ; i do not know what any man could say to them which were papers from him ; i do not remember any particulars , it is so long ago ; i believe now it is two years ago . att. gen. do you not remember that this was one passage in the kings letter , that the king wisht them to send commissioners to bredah ? m. alf. i do not remember that . att. gen. but was there not a commission at mr. loves house agreed upon to be sent ? m. alf. that there was . att. gen. what was to be the effect of that commission ? ma. alf. it was to advise those men to joyne with the scotch commissioners , to take advice with them , and to accept the presbyterian party with the king , in relation to the first petition that was sent . att. gen. was master love there ? m. alf. mr. love was there ; but i do not know what mr. love or any man did direct in it . att gen. who did correct those instructions ? m. alf. i cannnt tell . att. gen. who was agreed to prepare the commission ? m. alf. i do not know , for i believe it was prepared when it came there ; i heard that which we call a commission read there , but who prepared it , or acted in it , i do not know . att. gen. did gibbons bring it ? m. alf. who brought it i cannot tell . att. gen. who were the commissioners ? m. alf. as i remember , my lord willoughby of parham , and massey , and alderman bunce , and whether titus and graves , i cannot tell . att gen. was this in mr. loves study , or in another place ? m. alf. it was in mr. loves study . att. gen. was the rough draft corrected by any body or no ? mr. alford . i cannot tell whether it was or no , nor can i remember any more particulars of it then what i have given you . att gen. vvhat do you know concerning any instructions to give power to the commissioners what to do ? mr. alford . at the same time there was agreed upon some instructions for them to walk by , which was the substance of the petition which had been formerly sent , that is , it prest the king to take the covenant , and to prosecute the ends of the covenant . att. gen. vvho carried the commission and instructions ? mr. alford . one mason . att. gen. who was that mason ? mr. alford . i did not know him , but i have heard say , he did belong to my lord piercy . att. gen. was there not at that time some letters propounded to be written to the queen , and jermi●e , and to what purpose ? mr. alford . i cannot tell that any of these things were propounded there , but mr. drake had told me , and read to me in characters some that he had writ thither . att. gen. and was it sent ? mr. alford . i cannot tell , for it was privately between him and i. att. gen. when this commission was thus brought into mr. loves study , was there not a question propounded , what warrant have ▪ we to send comm●ssioners , and by what authority , and what was the resolution upon it ? mr. alford . we●l it may be , but i do not remember it . att gen. do you remember who went with mason , when he carried away this ? mr alford . none went with him , but i , and mr. gibbons did carry the papers two or three dayes after that we had from mr drake , which was this commission we speak of , to gravesend , to mason ; for he was at gravesend before , and there delivered it to him . att gen what w●s the effect of these instructions ? mr. alford . the substance of them was according to the first commission , to presse them to use all their indeavour to advise , and take advise wi●h the scotch commissioners how to presse the king to take the covenant , and to ●oyne with the honest party , the chu●ch party in scotland ; that was the substance of it . att. gen. did he not write to you to send money to the king ? mr. alford . i heard mr. drake once say , there w●s a letter from my lord piercy to that purporse , but captain titus himself wro● against it . att. gen. what course or way was propounded to raise money ? mr. alford . i know of nothing propounded that way ▪ it was not agreed for me at that meeting to go down , but mr. drake suddenly went down , and mr. drake alone spake to me . att gen. but ●e told you it was the first advise of some others ? mr. alford . truely , i do not remember that he did tell me so : there was a commission and instructions read at mr. loves , but whether agreed upon there or no , i know not . att. gen. what know you since dunbar●ight ●ight ? mr. alford . for that , we met at mr. loves house , in his lower roo● , and there was a letter that was said came from massey , wherin he gave an account of that businesse , how many men were lost , and that he did write for armes to be sent , and in his letter did propose a way , as i remember , to be done by the way of holland , i cannot tell the particular number of armes he writ for ; but for armes ; and also did speak something in it concerning his own , and titus's necessity , they being there strangers . att. gen. there was a proposition made of raising some money for supply of their necessities ? mr alford . it was not to purchase money , or armes , for any such thing , but onely a proposition made for supplying those gentlemens personall necessities . att. gen. and how was that to be done ? mr. alford . it was to be done among our selves , to raise some money ; there was five hundred pounds spoken of , but it was impossible for us to do that , for us that were inconsiderable men , being men of mean estates , and fortunes , and so it was brought down to a lesse sum . at. gen. what was that sum ? m. alford . either two or three hundred pounds , i cannot tell which . at. gen. how was that to be raised ? mr. alford . it was to be raised among our selves . at. gen. and did you subscribe then presently ? mr. alford . no , i did not . att. gen. who did ? mr. alford . i cannot tell that any did ; for i then said , that i did not know that either my selfe , or any there , was engaged by promise to do any thing for any , onely for captain titus ; for he alone was there upon our interest , and therfore i said , for that i would contribute ten pounds . att. gen. how much did mr. love contribute ? mr. alford . i do not know of any particular sum . att. gen. did mr. love presse you to contribute , or move any to do it ? mr. alford . truly mr. love did move to contribution of money , for the purpose we speak of , for the supply of titus . att. gen. when was titus there ? mr. alford . i cannot tell . l. pres . did mr. love move it ? mr. alford . yes , my lord. mr. love. was i the first that did move it ? mr. alford . truly , i cannot tell that . att. gen. was it at that time that the letters were read ? mr. alford . it was at that time . l. pres . and was mr. love there then ? mr. alford . yes , it was at that time . att. gen. do you remember of any declaration of the kirk and state read at that time ? mr. alford . no indeed , i do not . l. pres . you did say , that the letter did mention for armes ? mr. alford . but we did all every one of us dis-avow that , but onely the supply of their particular occasions . att. gen. was there no motion then made for a letter to be written to the church of scotland , to presse them to union and moderation . mr. alford . not that i know of . att. gen. was there not a motion of sending fifty pounds to colonel graves ? and what succeeded upon it ? mr. alford . i doe not know of any particular , but only of the sum to be raised in respect of titus . att. gen. how should your l. be disposed of ? mr. alford . that i cannot tell . att gen for whom was it to be raised ? mr. alford . i told the court that it was proposed for massey , and for ti●us . at. gen. did you pay your money ? mr. alford . no , i did not pay it , for i went out of town presently : i did promise ten pounds , and ten pounds j paid , but j cannot te●l to whom i paid it , i believe it was paid by my man. att. gen. did he bring it to you upon account as paid ? m. alford . j believe he did . att. gen. what do you know more ? mr. alford . truly , nothing more . att. gen. what do you know of any correspondency setled at kendal ? mr. alford . n●thing at all . att. gen. this was since dunbar fight . do you know of any letters that came from the kirk , or lowden , or argile , or any of those ? mr. alford . no , j know nothing of that . mr. love. you confesse you went to callice , and brought the copie of a letter from titus : did j send you to titus ? mr. alford . no , j do not say you did . mr. love. it is alledged by this gentleman , that it was sent out of my house , did j write any letter by you when you went into holland ? and upon your coming home , you say the copie of a letter was read at my house , will you swear i was in the roome at the time when the letter was read ? i was in my hou●e , but did not i go often out and in ? sir , i do speak this , because some at the committee said , i went in and out often . do you swear that i heard the le●ter read in my house ? m. alford . m. love it was read in your study , but that you were there when the letter was read , i cannot tell . m. love. he says he cannot tell that i heard the letter read . m. alford . i cannot tell whether you might go out . m. love. how long ago was this letter . m. alford . i think it was at that time the king was at jersy , i cannot remember the month , i think about two years ago . m. love. vvas the letter sent to me , or was it received by me ? m. alford . i did not say it was , i gave the paper i brought over from titus to william drake ; and some two or three dayes after , when we did meet at your house , m. drake read those papers , for he told me they were the same , but i cannot tell they were the same . mr. love. i desire he may be asked whether i did give my consent to the sending the pretended commission he speaks of . m. alford . truely , there was not any mans particular assent asked , that i know of . l. pres . was it not agreed in the generall that it should be sent over ? m. love. i pray ask him this question , did not i dissent from sending the commission ? m. alford . i do not remember it . m. love. for the businesse of mony , he saith , there was two or three hundred pounds raised , do you affirm i raised a penny ? m. alford . i did not say it was raised , but i say it was there propounded to be raised . l. pres . this he did say , there was a proposall for the doing of it , and you did perswade the doing of it ; and he left ten pounds with his man afterwards . m. love. ask him whether there was not a letter at that time read , that massey was withdrawn at that time in discontent from the court ? m. alford . i do not remember that particular . m. love. ask him whether the mony was sent to buy armes , or raise forces , or only to supply his wants , he not having a livelyhood . m. alford . it was not for armes , but it was for massey and titus , to supply their necessities . m. love. but he proves not that i lent any . m. alford . i do not say you did . att. gen. observe sir , there was a letter for armes at m. loves house , read there , and m. love did propound three hundred pounds to be raised , and prest the doing of it accordingly . m. alford did likewise lend ten pounds ; you may beleeve there hath been tampering with this witnesse too . my lord , ask m alford whether there was not a letter brought to him by his sister . m. alford . my lord , after i had liberty for my wife to come to me , she did give me a paper , which i knew was my sisters hand ; if i saw the thing i could tell , but it did miscarry . captain fisher . my lord the messenger is here in the court that did take the letter , of which this is the true copy word for word . major alford withdrawes , and major huntington is called into the court , and is sworn . l. pres . what do you know about m. loves house , about the commission , and captain titus ? m. huntington . my lord i can say , that about march , . i met with major alford , and he told me that titus was in town , and asked me if i knew him , and i told him , i ; and asked him where he was , he said he was newly come from beyond sea , from the fry , there being alderman bunce ; i asked him where he was , he said little to me ; but he said he was to meet him the next day at the swan at dowgate , that there was to be some citizens in order to those gentlemen beyond the seas , to speak with him there . i did meet , and the citizens there were col. barton , col. vaughan , captaine massey , l. col. bains , and i think hollis his man , i am not certain of it ; but captain far was there : the businesse at that time , was only commendations from their friends there ; and to tell them that he was commended to their acquaintance . and afterwards , he grew into very high praises of the prince , and that he had the knowledge of it from a scotch lord , i know not his name . after this he told them the prince was running very unhandsome courses , and they had very great hopes , that his own inclinations did not lead him to it , but it was the malignant party about him , that had a prevalency over him there , as over his father here ; but he did rather incline to join with the jrish rebbels , and did beleeve he would incline that way , unlesse he could get something from hence , to divert him from i● ; whereupon he did hope they would all set themselves that way , and that he would get letters from persons of honour ( whom i know not ) that should perswade him into a good belief of the scots , and to take the covenant ; after this there was a meeting again , i think fourteen days after , at the white hart in breadstreet , and there i met too ; in the time that i was there , i did understand there had been a meeting or two before in order to the businesse , & captain titus did declare he had now again letters from persons of honour , to send to my lord piercy , and did hope they would set something a foot amongst themselves of the like consequence : for massey , bunce , and graves could see no way under the heavens but for the king to take the covenant , and joyn with the scots , and to engage the covenanting party here . and to that purpose , he draws forth a paper that did purport that they were bound in honor , and justice , and conscience , and i think loyalty , to maintain him in his just rights , if he would go and joyn with the covenanting party in scotland ; and that he had no other way under god , but that ; which if he did , they took themselves bound in conscience to help him to his just rights . upon this l. col. bains makes objection to it , and said , it was a malignant businesse ; and did fear there was no good designe in the thing , and thereupon they did break up . i cannot tell whether it was sent or no , for they were affraid he would betray the businesse . after that i was told by major alford , that bains told them , he was very sorry he should meddle in that businesse , and that they would never prosper , that had any thing to do with him , for that the sins of him and his father were so great ; whereupon they were very wary and affraid he would discover the businesse . and he , i think , knew no further . after this , i did understand this letter was sent to the prince , and i was told so by m. alford , that it was sent in the name of the secluded members , and ministers , and citizens , and souldery , and noblemen ; i remember it fetch'd a great compasse : wherupon when the prince saw this letter , and had it from my lord piercy , he stormed at it , & said , who are these noblemen , and the rest ? what can they do for me ? can they raise me ten thousand men ? wherupon there was nothing done , but titus retired himself to his mothers house , & there lived about three quarters of a year , and came to town after , & did solicite his own business . a little after this , i heard ( upon the businesse of the scots ) that there was another letter sent that did begin the thing again , and now the prince had considered of the thing , and sent over the letter , and i heard , that it was to the ministers of london . i did not see the letter , but alford and drake told me it was so . after this titus was sent away , and that with a sum of mony , as i heard ; who lent the mony , j cannot tell , and what sum j know not : but presently after this , j coming to town out of the west , in march . in the beginning of march , the day of my coming to london , after j had been here one or two days at most , j met with hollis his man in fleet-street , i do not know his name , he met me , and i asked him what news ? he told me , he wondred that i was a stranger : and i asked him , what news ? saith he , if you come to m. love's house , you shall hear newes ; what is your businesse there , said i ? he said , it was to pray together , and to hear the newes : i went about nine of the clock , and prayer was over , and the news a great part was over : but after i did come there , that i did hear , was this ; william drake pulled a paper out of his pocket , that i understood he had put into his pocket , or withdrawn , because of a stranger , and afterwards he took it out again . the substance of the paper was to this pu●pose , as i remember , it was in characters , and pulled out of his pocket , and by him read : in the name of the commissioners commissionating the lord willoughby of parham , major generall massey , colonel graves , captain titus , and alderman bunce , in order to the treaty , in the behalfe of the well affected party in england , and these to joyne with the scotch commissioners , according to such instructions that should be therewith inclosed . and some body asked him , what power have we to give such a commission ? it was answered again by wiliam drake , that we have the kings command for it , and wee have likewise the authority of some prudent parliament man , whom wee look upon ( saith he ) beyond the power of them that now sit : whereupon m. love replies , come , come , let it go ▪ and after that i knew nothing . att. gen. repeat that again ? huntington . when the question was asked , what power have we to send or give commission , saith drake , we have the command of the king to do it ; besides , we have the authority of secluded members ; whereupon mr. love replied , come , come , let it go . mr. love. pray , ask him this one question , were there no speeches between william drakes words , and those words he pretends were mine ? huntington . j remember none . huntington withdraws . l. colonel bains , is called into the court , and is sworn . l. pres . speak what you know of this businesse ? bains . my lord , concerning any thing that came from scotland , i never knew any thing , nor did i ever hear any thing ; for dowgate , j was at two meetings at dowgate ; at the first meeting , there was a person that j did not know , which at the second meeting , j was told was captain titus , and he at that meeting ( where there was nine , or ten , or more , or thereabouts , ) he did propose some thing to be done in order to the restoring or preserving the presbyterian jnterest by way of application to the king , as he called him , and did advise it to be by way of petition , and that he conceived to be the onely way to preserve the presbyterian jnterest in england ; and that way would be the way to assure him , he had a considerable party in england ; and he did use many arguments , as a duty lying upon us by our covenant , to apply our selves to him , and he offered to draw up a draught of a petition against the next meeting to that purpose : and he said , it was necessary some thing should be done by some parliament men , and some ministers , and some citizens , that were leading men , men that thereby he might be assured that he had a party , and that considerable . at the next meeting , which was suddenly after , he did produce a paper , which , as j remember , was in short hand ; a petition , which was to the purpose j have hinted . there were severall debates , whether it should be signed , or not signed , and my selfe , and two more before disliked it ; and before he read the paper , he began to commend the good nature of the king , what good affections he had , and likewise did say , there was a necessity something should be done to the queen , and jermine , and piercy ; who he said , were our friends , that they should stir him up to comply with the scotch commissioners ; and upon this there was my selfe , and two more there present , ( i hope it sate upon them , as upon my selfe ) disliked the businesse , and from that time for my own part , i never heard any thing ; the heads of the petition i cannot suddenly remember . this paper carries the sum and substance of the businesse . the clerk shewes him a paper which he had formerly given in . bains this paper , if it be not interlined since , it was of my own dictating , and writ with my own hands , he looks upon the paper . i see no alteration made at all . l. pres . and this you deliver upon oath ? bains yes , upon my oath , to the best of my remembrance . and as to the prisoner , i can say nothing . bains withdraws . major adams is called into the court , and sworn . l. pres . declare your knowledge in this businesse ? m. adams . touching alderman bunce and mason , i know something by relation touching the correspondency with them . l. pres . tell the manner of it . m. adams . i conceive it was carried on by mr. drake , that is now absent ; and in scotland , by one baily . att. gen. vvhat do you know of mason , and of letters sent by him ? mr. adams . mason i do know , and i do know he did receive letters . l. pres . from whom ? m. adams . he said , from my lord piercy . att. gen. to whom were those letters communicated here ? m. adams . they were communicated to m. drake , and by m. drake , to my selfe , and m. alford , and c. potter , and c. far. att. gen. vvas m. love privie to it ? m. adams i cannot say that , my lord. att. gen. vvere there not letters sent to scotland to them , and back again hither about sending moderate propositions to the king ? m. adams . there was such letters . l. pres . vvho writ them ? mr. adams that i cannot tell . l. pres . had mr. love a hand in them ? m adams . i cannot say he had . i cannot prove a negative , i cannot say he had not . att. gen. what know you of the petition sent to the king ? m. adams i know nothing of it , only i was told of it . l. pres . who told you of it ? m. adams i cannot my lord fix it upon any particular man , but i believe i was told of it by alford , or far , or bains ; for i was not there at that time . l. pres . what do you know about the meeting at the swan at dowgate ? mr. adams . my lord i was not there . at. gen. then my lord , he may tell you what he doth know ? mr. adams . my lord , upon our meeting in some place or other , i cannot tell where , i cannot tell the time , nor the place , but either at the swan in fish-street , or at the swan at dowgate , or in cateaten street ; in one of these three places , i cannot punctually remember . att. gen. who was at that meeting ? mr. adams . mr. william drake , captain titus , major alford , captain far , captain potter , and my selfe ; and i do not know how many more , or whether any more , or no. l. pres . what past there ? mr. adams . it was there agreed , that captain titus should go over to jersy . att. gen. what was he imployed about ? mr. adams . the end of his going , was to endeavour to work an agreement between the king and scots , according to the covenant . that was the end that was propounded . and in order to his going , wee did agree to furnish him with money for the present , and made some kind of promise to maintaine him while he was out . att. gen. what money was he furnished with ? mr. adams . i cannot be punctuall in that , but about a hundred pounds . att. gen. who should pay it ? mr. adams . i paid twenty pounds of it , but i cannot tell who paid the rest . att. gen. to whom did you pay it ? adams . to mr. drake . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether when this was sent to jersy , was there not a return made ? l. pres . well , go on , there was your twenty pounds gone ? mr. adams . this is the substance of what i can say of his going . att. gen. was this twenty pounds that you laid out of your owne , or did you collect it of some of the rest , or did you gather any of it again ? mr. adams . i cannot say that i did . l. pres . did you not ? mr. adams . my lord , i tell you the truth , i doe not know whether i did , or no ; for i remember it was determined that we should gather it at that meeting ? at. gen. did not mr. love know of the collection ? mr. adams . i cannot say he did , it may be , he might , but i dare not say upon my oath , that he knew of it . att. gen. ask him what return titus made , what answer , and what account he gave ? mr. adams . m. alford went to calice to meet titus , and titus did send word that the councell of state heard of his being there , and thereupon desired that some body might be sent over to him ; for he had something to communicate which he could not well do by writing , and thereupon mr. alford was sent . att. gen. my lord , ask him where the letter was read ? mr. adams . the letter that titus sent , was read by mr. william drake . att. gen. where ? mr. adams . at his house , as i think , for i cannot certainly remember , i did not say , upon my examination that it was read any where . att. gen. whether were not you moved to go ? mr. adams . there was some motion to that end . l. pres . vvho moved it , and where ? mr. adams . vvho moved it , i cannot tell ; it was moved , i think , in mr. loves chamber . att. gen. was mr. love there ? mr. adams . he was there . att. gen. did mr. love move it ▪ mr. adams . i cannot say he did . l. pres . he will not say it ? mr. adams . i cannot say it upon my oath . att. gen. my lord , so much he saith , that it was moved in mr. loves chamber , then he may give you an account of mr. alfords return , and where the account was given ? mr. adams . the returne of mr. alfords account was given at mr. loves house . l. pres . vvhat was it ? mr. adams . the return he made in generall was by a narrative , and a copie of a letter from the king : there was with the narrative that which was said to be the copie of a letter from the king. l. pres . what was the substance of that letter ? mr. adams . the contents of the letter , as i remember , was first , he exprest a great deal of affection to the ministry of england in generall , and promised great favour when he was in a condition to do it , and desired them to continue stedfast in the way they were in . att. gen. was this letter published at mr. loves study ? mr. adams . it was read . l. pres . was mr. love there ? mr. adams . truly , to be positive , that mr. love was there , i dare not say ; but mr. love was there at that meeting , either at the , beginning or ending , but whether the letter was read at mr. loves house i dare not swear ; the narrative from titus , was a very long one , and very well drawn , i cannot give an account of it now : the whole of it was after this manner ; to give an account to us of all the transactions that had happened since his going out of england , he did give an account of his usage by the cavalier party , that was against the kings agreement with the scots , because there was some did incline to his agreement with them , and there was another party was much against it , and he gave a very large account of that ▪ after that he went on describing his disposition and condition . att. gen. this was the substance of the rest . was there not some propositions for giving of thanks to titus , for his so wel managing his affairs there ? mr. adams . there was a motion made by some body . l. pres . who made the motion ? mr. adams . i cannot tell . att. gen. was not an hundred pounds more to be sent agreed upon there ? mr. adams . i think so . att. gen. there was more money contributed , who agreed to lend any ? adams ? sir , to that question , i cannot say , who propounded it ; but that there was money sent . l. pres . who contributed ? mr. adams . i did my share . l. pres . how much was that ? mr. adams . as i remember , ten pounds . att. gen. to whom did you pay it , and where did you pay it ? then they shewed him his examination . l. pres . come , look upon it , and be well advised . adams looks upon his examination . mr. adams . i paid it to mr. drake at his fathers shop in cheap-side . att. gen. next about the commission and instructions to be sent , what do you know of that ? when this letter was read from the king , and published in mr. loves study , whether was there not a commission agreed upon , to give instructions to treat with the king at bredah ? mr. adams . there was a motion made at mr. loves house , that there should be a commission and instructions drawn and sent ; the motion was made at mr. loves house , they 〈◊〉 there spoken of . l. pres . by whom , who did the dialogue run between ? did mr. love do it ? mr. adams . truely , for my part , i did not then take such speciall notice , that i dare at this time upon my oath , deliver any thing positively against any particular man , but generally all spake something , as i remember . att. gen. was there any debate to mend the instructions ? adams . truly , sir , not as i remember . att. gen. did not mr. gibbons bring the rough draft of the commission ? mr. adams . truely , i think he did , as i remember he did , i have spoken of the comission and instructions that were debated then and there , and that many of these persons here mentioned , were there ; but that some of them mentioned , might not be there then , is very likely . att. gen. was mr. love there ? mr. adams . that he was there some part of this time , i am very confident . l. pres . was it in his study ? mr. adams . it was . att. gen. was there a commission agreed upon to be sent ? mr. adams . for the word agreed , i cannot tell what to say to it ; agreed , holds forth as if a vote passed . l. pres . was there not a generall consent ? mr. adams . being upon my oath , i desire to be cautious , for i must be tender in speaking the truth in this case , and i do not know what to make of the word agreed . l. pres . was it approved of ? mr. adams . to my understanding the thing was thus , that at such meetings as these , we were not absolutely formall , as if we had been established by a court of justice , to act thus , and that there should be prefaces , and such things , or such methods observed , as that any man undertook to make a preface , either at the beginning , or conclusion , but it was spoken to by many persons , and by every person spoken to , and in this sense it was agreed . att. gen. were there not instructions agreed upon , and all this in m. loves study ? mr. adams . it was so . l. pres . were they not read there ? mr. adams . i think they were . l. pres . who read them ? mr. adams . i cannot tell who read them , but they were read , and i think mr. drake read them ▪ att. gen. what was the contents of the commission ? mr. adams . the contents or the substance of the commission was to this effect . this he reads out of his examination . we the presbyterians of england , do authorize you the lord willughby of parham , edward mas-massey , richard graves , cilas titus , and james bunce , to assist our brethren , the scotch commissioners in their treaty with the king , according to the instructions annexed , i dare not swear it in these words , but to this purpose it was ; the substance of the instructions were to use all the arguments they could to move the king to give the scotch satisfaction , and to take the covenant ; such arguments were mentioned , as the then condition of affaires best afforded , particularly how things stood in england at that time : which did all of them cry out for an agreement , and gave them full power as to all things , and what should be concluded by them , should be confirmed by these here ; but i cannot say so , but what words were , were to this purpose , saving this conclusion , that what was concluded , should be confirmed here , i do not remember that . att. gen. was there not some debate by what warrant they should act in this commission and instructions ? adams . there were some such words at the meeting . l. pres . what did mr. love say ? adams . i cannot remember what mr. love did say , or whether he said any thing or nothing at that time , but that there were such words said , i have said it , but by whom , i cannot fix it upon any particular pe●son . att. gen. was it not debated by what warrant they should derive power to themselves to send this commission ? adams . there was such language , but by whom , i cannot say , i thinke by william drake ▪ it was because the king had writ this letter , wherein he desired there should be such instructions ; there was something spoken of the secluded members , but by whom , i do not know ; there was a proposition whether the authority should be taken from the secluded members , or from some other . att. gen. did not mr. love then say , come , let it go on . ad. i dare not say so . att. gen. was it not propounded at the meeting to write to the queen , and to jermine , and piercy , for them to mediate with the king to agree with the scots . adams's examination was here againe read . adams . my lord , so much of this , as i think to be true , i shall own . att. gen. was there not a letter writ from piercy , that a considerable summe of money was fit to be sent to the king , and what answer was given ; was it not to be done till the king and scots should agree , and then to raise the money ? adams . that there was such a letter writ , i must needs acknowledge . att. gen. where 〈◊〉 it read ? at mr. love's house ? adams . no certainly , i onely saw it in mason's own 〈◊〉 , and i remember he shewed it me . att. gen. next ask him whether there was not a letter written about august last to some here , that massey had back friends in scotland , complaining he could not be promoted there ? adams . i did understand there was such a letter , but by what way , i do not know . at. gen. was not the letter communicated at m. loves house , and were not you present when this letter was read at mr. loves house , wherein massey complained he had back friends in scotland ? ad. no certainly , that letter ▪ was not to my remembrance read there , i heard of such a letter , but saw it not . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether he was not appointed to draw up some letters . ad. there were some i should have had a hand in drawing . att. gen. who were appointed with you . ad. as i remember , captain potter , captain massey , and m● . gibbons . att. gen. but was there no meeting upon it , was m. love named ? adams . mr. love was not named . att. gen. was there not one sterks a scotch agent here , that kept intelligence from scotland ? adams . i know , there was such a one , we took to be an agent here . l. pres . did he meet at your meetings ? ad. yes , he did meet sometimes . att. gen. was he at mr. loves house at any time ? ad. that he was . att. gen. when the act came forth for banishing the scots , was there not a collection for his charges , and were not you at m. loves house when it was agreed to ? adams . i was not . att. gen. did you contribute money ? adams . i did contribute or s . i cannot tell which . att. gen. what discourse upon dunbar fight was there from this person that is already spoken of ? adams . this is the thing , if you please to help my memory ; for there were so many particulars in this correspondency , that i cannot tell whereabouts it is i am to speak to , i am very uncertain where abouts it is a im to speak to . l. pres . speak the certainty as it was in your breast . ad. my lord , if it be doubtfull to me , how can i be certaine , and charge it upon my memory ? l. pres . speak the truth ? adams . i will speak the truth . l. pres . do so then ? here again adams looks upon his examinations . adams . there is some of it i did set down , that i dare not own upon my oath , i then did deliver it so when i set it down . att. gen. did mr. love know that this scotch man was the scotch agent ? did you not take notice that mr. love took notice of him ? adams . i do think he did , as farre as i understand , he did . att. gen. did not mr. love generally tell you the cause of the meetings ? adams . no sir. att. gen. did you not hear mr. love say , that this sterks was the scotch agent ? adam . i never heard mr. love say so , but i knew this , that by our usuall meetings mr. love did understand him as i did , to be the scotch agent . att gen. how often did you meet at mr. loves house ? adams . i cannot tell , it may be seven , or eight , or ten times ; an uncertain time . at. gen. he was at mr. loves study ? adams . whether so many times , i know not . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether it was not at mr. loves study when mony was propounded to be raised for massey , and titus . l. pres . was that in mr. loves study ? ad. i cannot tell ▪ whether it was in his study , or in the lower room , i am apt to believe it was in the lower room . att. gen. was mr. love there ? adams . certainly , he was there . l. pres . what was the contents of the letter ? adams . the contents of the letter i cannot remember . att. gen. whether did it not declare the poverty of his condition ? and was it not after dunbar fight ? adams . yes , it was . att. gen. was this letter from massey , read at master loves house , was this for money ? ad. it was . l. pres . was it agreed for money to bee raised ? adams . if you take the word agreed , as i formerly propounded , it was so . att. gen. how was the money to be raised , and in what manner ? adams . it was by those that were privy to the contribution . att. gen. was not mr. love there , and did not he write down the sums that were to be contributed ? adams . this i must needs say , that master love had papers in his hand , and hee did write something , but i did not see what he did write , and every man did write that was there . att. gen. did not you conceive so , that mr. love summed up every mans sum ? did he put the letters of their names before them , when he writ the sums ? adams . i cannot say that . att. gen. was not there a letter penn'd by master love , and doctor drake ? ad. to that question , i must say there was a letter , but i cannot deliver it upon my oath that it was penn'd by master love , or doctor drake , but it was taken to be so , and i thought it was so . att. gen. to whom was that letter directed ? adams . i cannot tell to whom . att. gen. to whom was it declared to be directed ? to whom was it declared to be written ? adams . to the generall assembly and kirk of scotland . l. pres . was this at mr. loves house too ? adams . it was so . att. gen. was mr. love present , and did approve of it ? adams . mr. love was present at some time of this meeting : the reason why i thought it to be of master loves , or doctor drakes drawing , was nothing but meerly the language of it , it being in order to promote the ends of the covenant , and all the whole language was couched to that purpose , and taking notice of the want of respect to massey , and the english , and of their being beaten . att. gen. my lord , this is very high ; for he tels you this letter was approved of , and directed to be sent , and this was after dunbar fight , after we were ingaged in bloud . here adams read out of his examination , as followeth : adams . there was also a large letter in the nature of a declaration penn'd by master love , and doctor drake , and approved of by most of the presbyterian party , ministers , and other , and directed to the generall assembly , and kirk of scotland , subscribed by none , which contained the substance of what was declared by titus , and massey , but durst not promise any great sums of money till they appeared more considerable , and grew nearer action ; the businesse required higher spirits then was for the present , and the businesse required a considerable summe : but to leave no means un-attempted when the businesse was seasable . so far he reads . att. gen. major adams is now upon his oath to tell you . adams . my lord , as well as i remember , it did put forth much after this sort , but i cannot swear it in these words , but that is the substance of it . att. gen. was not this agreed and declared at mr. loves house , that such a letter should be written to the honourable committee , and to the kirk . ad. i answer , that after the same manner as all other things are agreed at such meetings as this is , but i have no ground , and do not know why i should say master love and doctor drake penn'd it . att. gen. ask him for the substance of the letter , whether it were not as he hath told you , and whether he did not say , they could not promise a considerable sum of money . adams . certainly , either in that letter , or some other , there was some such expressions . l. pres . vvell , it was about that time , and in that letter , or in some other letter , and at m. loves house . att. gen. my lord , ask him if there was not an agent come from scotland , and a way laid at kendall for a correspondency between these gentlemen here , and some of scotland , and whether one groves was not sent thither ? adams . that was something obscure ; that there was such a thing , i do verily believe , because it went amongst us for a truth , but how to make it out for a truth upon my oath , i cannot tell . l. pres . did mr. love know of it ? adams . i do not know . att gen. ask him what he knows concerning colonel bamfield's man coming hither ? adams . concerning that i know nothing , but i confesse i had some item , that at that time there was something found ; and this is all i can say to that , i cannot guesse the time . att. gen. was it after the fight at dunbar ? adams . yes , that it was . att. gen. were the meetings at mr. loves house ? adams . i cannot say all , but all that i know of , were . att. gen. ask whether upon the large letter , massey did not write that things were well setled in scotland ? adams . many of these things were understood so , and taken for granted amongst us , but i can say no otherwise , i thought it to be so ; but i know not . att. gen. were you not present , or at mr. loves house , when these letters were read , that they were in a hopefull condition ? adams . i cannot say so . l. pres . what can you say ? adams . as before . that it went for a truth amongst us , and that is as much as i can say to it . att. gen. was there not a large letter inviting your friends to union ? adams . i understand the other letter to be this you propound to me now . att. gen. now we speak of a letter from alderman bunce , and others ? adams . i cannot speak particularly to that ; for i did not see them , but they were told me by one or other of those that were of the correspondency , and this is all i can say . l. pres . what is the truth ? doe you conceive it is so ? att. gen. my lord , we shall not trouble him with that , my lord. ask him one question more , what did mr. love tell you , that if the presbyterians got the upper hand again ? adams· those words , i think , did but amount to this , that if the presbyterians were in armes again , by the blessing of god , the cavaliering party might be prevented from getting the day . l. pres . who do you mean by the correspondents ? adams . by correspondents i mean alford , potter , far , &c. l. pres . was not mr. love one of them ? adams . i took him to be so , my lord. mr. love. my lord , i pray ask him , whether any of these pretended or supposed letters , were ever received by me , any one of them , or that i writ one of them , or mended one of them . adams . i cannot say that ever i saw him do any such thing , nor did i ever see him write any . l. pres . but you saw the letters there ? adams . that i have said . mr. love. ask him whether i gave my consent to the sending away of this he calls a commission , and instructions , about the time of the treaty at bredah . adams . no , i will not swear that , and upon my oath i cannot . l. pres . will you not , i will presse you to nothing , you said even now , you did not know he did send them away , but you did say , he was privy to them , and to the debates of them : did he declare any dissent ? adams . i cannot say that . m. love. will you ask him this question ? whether he read the letters that he pretends were sent into england , or scotland , or whether he heard them read ? l. pres . that he swears ? adams . i did not swear that these were the contents of them exactly . i was there when these letters were read . mr. love. he onely heard them read . l. pres . if there were halfe a score that had correspondency , and received letters , and come together , and one of the most confiding men read them , will any man say , that he will not believe these were right read , such a hear-say as this , is such a hear-say as you may take notice of . m. love. but let him prove how it was a correspondency on my part . adams . i did not say that mr. love was one of the correspondents , i deny that i said so , i said i conceived him to be so , but that is not , that he was so . l. pres . they did debate together , and met together , and received instructions , and therefore he may very aptly conceive he was a correspondent ? mr. love. doth he swear that j assented ? adams . j did not swear so ? mr. love. he saith , money was sent to titus , pray ask him whether by agents j imployed ? adams . i cannot say so . mr. love. here is no proof at all , that ever i received letter , or writ or sent any letter : pray ask him if i knew before they came to my house , that they would bring such letters with them . do you swear that i was present in the room at the time that the letters after the defeat at dunbar were sent , wherein there was , as you say , a promise of assistance ? adams . you were there some part of the while . mr. love. ask him whether he was not threatned with death , in case he would not , and promised favour in case he would bring in evidence against me . adams . i cannot say i was threatned with death to that end . mr. love. i shall bring a witnesse that shall prove from his own mouth , that he hath confest , if hee did not bring in evidence against me , he should be hanged . adams . it is true , percival did come to me , and i did say to him , that upon my examination , i did say , if i were not ingenuous , i was threatned to be hanged . att. gen. when a man is a traytour and doth confesse , he deserves mercy . mr. love. ask him whether he hath not received money to give in this information against me . adams . i have not . mr. love. did not some messenger come to you , some months since , from some members of the councell of state , and told you , you were poor , and should be ruined if you did not confesse it ? he had three messengers sent unto him from the councell of state , or some of them , that told him , if he would not confesse he should be ruined . att. gen. did you receive money , or were there promises made to you to testifie against mr. love ? adams . upon my oath i did not . mr. love. hath he never come to mr. scots chamber ? did he not come a month before i was committed , being brought there by major cobbet ; and whether he hath not received money from major cobbet . i desire that major cobbet may be called upon his oath , to know whether he hath not given him money to bring in information against me ; for he hath taken notice of all fasts , and of all things done , and hath brought all to mr. scot : i know , by information , that this adams is a hired witnesse . sir , this man is a tobiah and a sa●ballat ; some men have hired this man against me . i desire major cobbet may be called . l. pres . he did , and might do it ; but did he it to testifie against mr. love ? i hope a state that watches the nation , may watch for the safety of a nation . mr. cobbet a major of the army is called into the court and is sworn . mr. love. pray ask him whether he hath not at any time within this three months , given any money to major adams , to acquaint mr. scot or the councell of state with this designe , as 't is called . maj. cobb . my lord , i must , and do deny that which this gentleman doth aver , and truly i wonder at his boldnesse in the presence of this honourable court ; i do know major adams , and have known him a long while , and commiserating him as being a prisoner , i lent him ten pounds , but for no consideration that he should betray mr. love , or any man : i paid the money to his wife . mr. love. he paid it , be saith , how then did he lend it ? and he paid it to his wife , that was to cover the bribery ; but did not you discover to this man , if he would reveal it to mr. scot , what recompence he should have of him ? did not you walking in the fields with him , desire him to reveal what he knew , and promised him if he did , he should be a man preferr'd . maj. cobbet . i have been acquainted with major adams this four or five years , and met with him in the behalf of the presbyters ; understanding there was something was driven on dangerous to the common-wealth : and i thought i was bound in duty to requite them , if it were possible , for their pains of discovery ; and i laboured with him that he would deal so honestly with himself , and the common-wealth , as to let the common-wealth know , what he did know of this designe : accordingly he gave me some notice ; and i said to him , major adams , if i find you ingenuous , if there be any thing that i can do for you , i shall be ready to serve you by night and by day . mr. love. it appears then that the ten pounds was not ●ent to major adams , but was paid him for his discovery ; so that 't is clear he is a hired witnesse ; and have you not brought him to mr. scots chamber with promises of preferment ? no answer to that question . the leiutenant of the tower is commanded to withdraw his prisoner , and the court adjourns till to morrow . the second dayes proceedings , july the . . the court being sate , col. west lieutenant of the tower was commanded to bring forth his prisoner , and mr. love was brought to the bar. master jaquel was called into the court , and the clerk tenderd him his oath , and m. jaquel spake to the court to this purpose , that there were many oaths abroad , and he could not tell what to say to them , and he desired to be excused . the l. pres . told him that he could not be excused . m. jaquel said , he was a prisoner accused of the same offences that m. love was accused of , and that he conceived he was not a competent witnesse against him : the court again prest him to take his oath . mr. jaquel said , that he durst not in conscience swear against mr. love , and therefore desired it might not be prest upon him . the court still presisted in it , that he must take his oath , and witnesse what he knew ; he answered , hee would speak the truth of what he knew , as well as if he was under an oath : the court told him , that that could not be , for if he did not swear , what he should say , could not be received as any thing in matter of evidence . m. jaquel still persisted in his refusall ; when the court saw he could not be otherwise prevailed with , they fined him five hundred pounds for refusing to swear ; and mr. jaquel after he was withdrawn out of the court , was called in again , and prest to take his oath , and was told that the court had fined him five hundred pounds for refusing to swear , and again asked him whether he would swear . m. jaquel then , when the oath was read to him , did not swear in that manner as the other witnesses did , but only put his hand to his buttons , and when mr. love asked him whether he was under an oath , he answered that he was as good as under an oath : but the court not being satisfied with that answer , prest him further , and then hee did say , he was sworn , and was under an oath . l. pres . declare now what you know of this businesse . mr. jaquel . my lord , for the paper i was examined about , as for knowing titus , i never saw him in my life but one quarter of an hour in a private house , and i knew nothing of his businesse any where . for the other , alford coming over with letters , i was at mr. loves house , and when i was there , there was severall men there . att. gen. in what part of mr. loves house . jaquel . i conceive in his chamber , for i went up to severall that were there , whose names i can positively say , for two or three of them , though i cannot remember the other absolutely , though i conceive most i have named in my examination were there ; c. potter was there , and doctor drake , and m. alford , and m. love was there somtimes , though divers times he went out , some coming to speak with him . att. gen. was there not a copy of a letter said to be sent from the king , read there ? mr. jaquel . i remember no such thing . att. gen. was there not a narrative . jaquel . yes , from titus , wherein he declared the kings inclinations to make peace with the scots ; but that his wicked counsell about him did hinder it . att. gen. was not this of what titus had related from jersey , the narrative of what had past between him and the king there ? jaquel . i think it was . att. gen. was not m. alford sent to receive an account from him to calice ? jaquel . william drake did tell me so afterwards . att. gen. did m. alford deliver no account there ? jaquel . i think it was m. alford read the narrative . at. gen. did he make no relation by word of mouth ? jaquel . truly , i cannot remember . at. gen. you cannot remember it was read ? jaquel . yes , i am sure it was read , and at mr. loves house . at. gen. and he was present sometimes . jaquel . yes , sometimes . att gen. what mony was there agreed upon to be provided for titus ? jaquel . i know of none . it was moved by captain potter that there might be forty pounds , but i know of none , nor was it agreed by m ▪ love , m. drake or my self , that we should lay down any at all . att. gen. did you not meet with william drake , and desire to go along with him to see titus ? iaquel . i did so , but i think drake desired it . i met him in newgate market , and , saith he , i am going to see titus , goe along with me ; i said , i never saw him , nor did i know him : sayes he , you shall not stay at all : whereupon we went and found him in a cheese-mongers house in new-gate market . at. gen. what discourse had you ? jaquel . he said , he was newly come out of holland , and he had been with the king , and he was a man of excellent parts for his years , and that he was inclinable to what was good , but that he had such desperate evill counsell about him ; and that hee did much pity him , and that his clergie especially was wicked ; and he propounded nothing to us , nor did i ever see his face afterwards , and this is about two years and a halfe ago ; and for any other meetings at the swan taverne , or for any agents , i never met him , or saw him . att. gen. doe you not remember at any meeting , that there was money propounded for captaine titus , or for alfords being sent over to calice ? speak what you know of that , and by whom it was told you ? iaquel . major alford himselfe told me he was to meet his son , and he went over upon that score ; but after he was gone , william drake told me he was gone to see or meet captaine titus , i am not certaine of the words ; and when he did come againe , which was the next time i heard of him , then william drake comes to me , and desired mee to goe along with him , for i think he went up and down to every man. att. gen. you thinke then that william drake was the prime man. iaquel . yes , hee was the actor and the agent that moved all . att. gen. when alford returned , he desired you to go with him . iaquel . to mr. loves house . att. gen. vvhat was done at mr loves house ? iaquel . there were some papers read , which alford , as i take it , read , or william drake , i am not certaine which ; but read it was , of a relation , that titus came out of iersy , and had seen the king there , and the scots commissioners , and that the king had a great inclination to agree with the scots commissioners , and that he was a man of excellent inclinations and parts , and had a great desire to agree , but his counsell , and wicked crew about him would not let him ; and he said , as i remember , that the king was a kind of a prisoner with them there , and said , his counsell did hinder him , or else , if he were from them , hee would agree with the scots commissioners . at. gen. you say , this paper was read ; this narrative was read , and in m● . loves house ; was not mr. love present ? iaquel . i am not able to say hee was , when i came in , i remember he was not in the roome , and he was there two or three times while i was there , but he was severall times called out . att. gen. doe not you know there was an agreement of a letter written back to titus ? iaquel . i can remember no such thing , but i think william drake told me so , as i remember , but that was two years ago , i do verily believe by what i conceived , was of his writing . l. pres . i could wish that mens consciences could not bee scrupled to believe so much of a minister , more then of a magistrate ; i hold it pernicious doctrine for any man to think he is bound more to obey the minister , then the magistrate : i ask you then before the magistrate here , who was present at that meeting ? iaquel . william drake . i am sure , and major alford was there , and captain potter , and severall others , as i remember , master ienkyns . att. gen. this was in mr. loves house , was it not in his study ? iaquel . i cannot tell that , i say , as i conceive , that master ienkyns , and master case were there , but positively i cannot say it , and mr. iackson , and mr. nalton , i think . att. gen. vvhat say you of mr. watson ? iaquel . i think he was there . att. gen. what say you of mr. herring ? jaquel . i think he was . att. gen. vvhat say you of mr. cauton . iaquel . in truth , i cannot tell . att. gen. vvhat say you of mr. robinson ? iaquel . i think he was . att. gen. what say you of mr. drake ? iaquel . yes . att. gen. vvas colonell vaughan there ? iaquel . yes , i conceive he was there . att. gen. was master iackson there ? iaquel . yes . att. gen. was capt. far , and capt. potter there ? iaquel . i believe so . att. gen. was mr. gibbons there ? iaquel . i cannot tell . att. gen. what say you of mr. sterks ? iaquel . no sir , i do not know it . att. did you not know him to be the scotch agent ? was he not taken among you to be an agent from scotland ? iaquel . yes , he was a scotch man. at. gen. and for contribution of money , what money did you pay , and to whom ? jaquel . two five pounds to mr. drake . at. gen. for what use ? jaquel . for charitable uses . at. gen. then he asked it of you so , or for that purpose ; but afterwards , what did you learn it was employed about ? jaquel . sir , he did not tell me how he did employ this money ; but afterwards , i heard him say , that he had sent titus money . at. gen. what did you contribute to sterks his going into scotland ? jaquel . ten shillings . at. gen. and who else did contribute , that was there ? and how much was the sum that was collected ? jaquel . i cannot tell . at. gen. how much do you guess , or have heard ? jaquel . four or five pounds , i think . at. gen. ask him who gave the scotchmen money . jaquel . truly , i did give several scotchmen money , both to poor ministers and others , that were banished by the act , because i knew they were very poor , and knew not how to get away ; and i did it out of charity towards them . l. pres . because the state had an ill opinion of them , therefore ▪ you had a good opinion of them . jaquel . there was one minister that had twelve children that was banished . at. gen. were you at any meetings at mr ▪ loves after dunbar fight ? jaquel . no not i. at. gen. at what fast were you at , and who officiated at those fasts ? jaquel . i was at major adams , and colonel bartons . at. gen. who did exercise at those fasts ? was mr. love , mr. jenkyns , mr. case , any of them ? jaquel . i believe they were , i conceive so , i profess i cannot remember , i believe mr. jenkyns was there . at. gen. was not mr. love one of them ? jaquel . yes , he was . at. gen. what was the occasion of those fasts ? jaquel . i know no particular occasion , but for the good of the two nations . at. gen. how do you know they were for the good of the two nations ? was it not for an agreement between the king , and the scots ? jaquel . i confess , it was for the good of both nations , as both nations are the church of god ; and do both profess themselves protestants , and of one religion ; and i conceived , it was my duty to pray for the good of them both . at. gen. but was there not some expressions for a blessing upon the treaty at breda ? jaquel . i cannot remember such expressions ; for in such duties , i desire to have my heart lifted up unto god : and , my lord , it is a great while ago . l. pres . will you say your heart is lifted up unto god , when your understanding is in your heels ? jaquel . my lord , i do not remember one passage in prayer a week after . at. gen. that is in ordinary meetings , but this was for both nations ; but by what did you know , that this was for the good of both nations , and why was it pretended to be for the good of both ? and , my lord , why they should not meet before , but just at that time , and at a private fast ? jaquel . i think that since the nations of england and scotland were at oddes , i have been at twenty fasts . at. gen. my lord , ask him , whether he were not late with potter , and did not meet with him about letters from bamfield , and whither they went to read them ? jaquel . this was about february or march last , he told me he received letters , and desired me to go along with him to mr. loves , and after dr. drake came in , and then these letters were read ; and i profess , i know not from whence they came , nor the man ; and so did mr. love declare , that he never saw , nor knew , nor heard of bamfield before . at. gen. did he not make mention of parties in scotland , that one party was for the king , another for the king and kirk , a third neither for king , nor kirk ? jaquel . yes . at. gen. but who were those he named , that were men for the king ? jaquel . i think , hamilton and his party . at. gen. and who for the king and kirk ? jaquel . argile and leshley . at. gen. and who neither for king nor kirk ? jaquel . straughan and car. at. gen. what , did he tell you of the young kings escaping ? jaquel . something there was in that , but he was fetched back again . at. gen. what said he of argile ? jaquel . nothing at all , as i remember . at. gen. was there not an expression , that they were now agreed to receive in the whole nation , unless it were those that were notoriously ▪ scandalous and excommunicated ? jaquel . i believe there was . at. gen. did it not mention five thousand pounds for providing of shipping ? jaquel . yes ; in the narrative or letter ; whether there related at that time , i know not . at. gen. and what mention was there made , who were fit to command in england , if that party should come from thence into england ? jaquel . i conceive there was three noblemen . at. gen. name them . jaquel . my lord of suffolk , my lord of warwick , and my lord of manchester , or either of them . at. gen. that was prepounded by bamfield , but i hope those lords were more noble , then to do any such thing : was there not another letter that came with that of bamfields , sent by my lord of argile , and it was onely , that there should be an apbrobation of him : and was this letter likewise read at the same time , and at the same place ? jaquel . yes , my lord. at. gen. what was then propounded for money to be raised for bamfield ? jaquel . truly , captain potter did make mention for forty pounds to be raised , ten pounds for colonel bamfields man , and thirty pounds for bamfield himself ; but that business at the reading was wholly declined , and absolutely refused by all , to act any thing in that relation , in which it was sent over ; whereupon , captain potter did move , that if nothing were done in that , whether it were not convenient to send the messenger something to bear his charges ; says he , if you will pay the messenger ten pounds , and send bamfield thirty pounds , i will give the messenger the ten pounds ; but there was no agreement , not conclusion , i know of , no bill of exchange that was sent , but captain potter said , he would lay down ten pounds . at. gen. but no body spake against captain potters laying down of ten pounds ; and it was propounded to you to lend ten pounds , and you said you would consider of it ; but did potter lend it ? jaquel . i cannot tell that , my lord , he said he would do it . at. gen. my lord , let now master jaquel tell you what was the cause , why they did refuse to do any thing in the letter about five thousand pounds ; what was the cause upon the debate between you at mr. loves house ? why you did refuse to do any thing about the five thousand pounds ? jaquel . the debate was soon over ; for we absolutely refused it , we would not meddle in it , not liking the business ; it was a trouble , i am confident , to them that heard it read . at. gen. you do not remember , that ever any body did acquaint the magistrate with the design in working from scotland ? jaquel . no , not i. at. gen. did not some say , that bamfield was a malignant ? jaquel . i cannot tell , but i never heard of him before . at. gen. were you not told he was a cavalier , and of the kings side , and that that was the true reason , why they would not trust him ? jaquel . i do not remember any such thing . at. gen. did mr. love agree for ten pounds for bamfields man , and thirty pounds for bamfield ? jaquel . no , i cannot say so . at. gen. did not major alford tell you upon his return from calice , that he was sent thither to take an account thence ? jaquel . he did not , but william drake did tell me , that he was gone to calice to speak with captain titus . at. gen. and to take an account of the transaction at jersey ? jaquel . truly sir , i cannot say that , but william drake told me , he was gone thither to speak with titus ; and this is above two years ago , that william drake told me so . at. gen. to what end ? jaquel . to tell and hear news . at. gen. what did he do more ? jaquel . i profess in the presence of god , i cannot tell sir , i beseech you ; for in the paper i told you before , there were some circumstances , and something that i cannot say ; but it was to this purpose , to speak with titus , to hear the news from jersey ; but i cannot say certainly that word . at. gen. we do not press you to the word , but to the effect of it ; my lord , i think mr. jaquel hath given an account already , that this relation was at mr. loves house . mr. jaquel , let me bring one thing to your remembrance , if it be true , at your meeting at mr. loves house , upon this business of bamfields narrative , you say , thirty pounds was moved to be sent to bamfield , and ten pounds to his man. jaquel . yes ▪ by captain potter . at. gen. and when it was then said , it was thought fit by mr. love , mr. drake , and captain potter , that it should be so done , whether did you not all agree that it should be so done ? jaquel . no , there was no agreement , but it was thought convenient , or to that purpose . att. gen. it was thought convenient by all the company present ? iaquel . truely sir , there was not much regard taken in that businesse , nor was there much done ; for we did not stay long , but there were such words . att. gen. but by all present ? jaquel . yes , there were such words . att. gen. whether were not some friends at dinner at dowgate , and was not mason there ? iaquel . my lord , there was a gentleman there , i cannot say , who he was , nor did i see him before or since . att. gen. who did they tell you it was ? did they not tell you , mason ? jaquel . i professe , i cannot remember that , nor can i tell , but i conceive it was so . att. gen. in your examination , you say it was mason . iaquel . i said , i conceived so . att. gen. why did you believe so ? iaquel . i cannot tell , but as i remember , william drake told me , it was so . att. gen. whether when bamfields letter came , and the letters from my lord of argile , lowden , and others came , was there not a letter from baily ? iaquel . i do not remember , my lord. att. gen. nor from the generall assembly ? iaquel . i do not remember any such thing . att. gen. bethink your self , you are upon your oath , whether he that brought letters from bamfield , did not bring letters from baily , and from the generall assembly . jaquel . i cannnot remember there was any such thing spoken of there . att. gen. was there no expression of letters of thanks for the good affection of the presbyterian party here , and encouragement to persevere ? jaquel . i do not remember any such thing . att. gen. was there no promises , that when they by their indeavours should get a free parliament in england , that they would re-imburse all that was laid out jaq. i do remember no such thing . mr. love. i would ask him some questions ; and the first is , whether he hath spoken this as a meer relation , or whether he owns all this he hath spoken , as under an oath . att. gen. we are past that my lord , he did say , he was under an oath . mr. love. if he say so , i am concluded . mr. jaquel made no answer to this . l. pres . you have asked two questions in a few words : for the first , whether he speak it under an oath ; you know , that time was spent to declare it before he began : if you ask of his owne knowledge , you mistook it ; for he saith something he hath by relation , and some that he knows : this hee hath taken notice of , what should wee further examine over the same thing ; for hee saith some of his own knowledge , some by relation from particular parties , and some from parties he cals not now to mind : and it was declared by the court , that he was a witnesse , and the court accepted him . mr. love. i desire your lordship to ask him this question , whether the supposed narrative that hee speaks of , that alford said he brought over , and read at my house , was read at my house ; or onely by alford , and so brought over as news ? jaquel . in truth , my lord i cannot tell that . mr. love. he speaks of sterks a scotch man , i desire your lordship to know wether hee knows , or can affirme by the oath you say he hath taken , that he was a scotch agent . no answer to that question . mr. love. sir , ask him this question , he mentions a fast at major adams , or col. bartons , and that for the good of both nations ; because he thought they were the church of god ; whether there was any intimation in that meeting , that it was under this notion , for the good of both nations ; whether that meeting was for the scotch nation to invade the english nation . no answer to to that question . mr. love. he said , ( if i have taken him rightly , and if not , i desire your notaries to inform me better ) that mr. love did not agree to such a summe as forty pounds , and afterwards hee said , that all there said , it was convenient . now i would ask how these two can agree together . l. pres . you are right ; for the thing of agreement he disclaimed totally . mr. love. then i did not agree to it . l. pres . no , nor any else . m. love. but afterwards he sayes , that they did conceive it was convenient ; now , i pray ask him , how he knew that i thought it was convenient ? jaquel . i cannot say any thing that mr. love did say it was convenient ; but it was not dissented from , nor spoken against by any , as i remember . mr. jaquel withdraws . colonel barton is called into the court , and is sworn . att. gen. my lord , let colonel barton tell you what he knows of the meeting at the swan at dow-gate . col. barton . my lord , i was there a little while after the death of the late king ; i was going into cannon-street , and met with william drake , he desired me to go with him to the swan at dow-gate , i told him i had a little businesse in cannon-street , and i would be there by and by : i staid about halfe an hour about my businesse , and went then to the swan at dow-gate , and there was , to my best remembrance ( for positively i cannot say ) william drake , and one a stranger , major huntington , and lieutenant colonel bains , and there was one captain titus , as was said , and major alford , and i do not remember who else were there . my lord , at that time truly i was under a defect in my hearing , and since that i have lost an ear , through a huge heat , and cold taken . but , my lord , i not coming but to the middle of their discourse they had , and not perfectly hearing , could not well judge of their discourse , but afterwards i asked william drake , what the intent of the meeting was ? he told mee , that their intentions were to make some addresses or applications ( some such word it was ) unto the prince , and to take him off from his malignant or evill counsell about him , and to put him upon such as would be honester and better counsellers ; and this is the substance of what i then understood from will. drake . my lord , j think , two or three dayes afterwards , i know not which , there was a meeting againe at the white hart in basing-lane , and at the corner of bread-street ; there were , i think , most of them that i have named at the first meeting ; i am sure william drake was there , and captain titus , and lieutenant colonel bains , and major huntington , i cannot tell whether mr. alford was there or no , but these i am sure were there ; i did not come to the beginning of that meeting neither , the paper had been read before i came in , to my best remembrance ; but i asked william drake what was the meaning of that meeting ? he told me , it was to the same effect that they spake of before ; and they had thoughts to send some body over to the prince , to perswade him from that condition ; a while after j met with lieutenant colonel bains , and truly , j did ask him more fully of the circumstances of that meeting : he told me something that they intended to make use of my lord piercy and jermin , and those about the prince , which hee disliked . truly , my lord , it troubled me extremely to think that they should make use of such ill instruments to perswade the king , and j said , j thought it was not well : and the next time j said to william drake , you have not done well , for it is not a christian way we take to make use of such men as these to perswade with the king ; for do you think that my lord piercy and jermin , and those men will ever perswade the king to leave themselves , and their own counsels ? so he put me off , and from that time he was a little more shy of me . afterwards he did secretly and cunningly get from me ten pounds , and came under a pretence to supply a friend in necessity , and j said to him , you have money of your own ; saies he , j have not so much as j must needs supply him with , and he could not do it of himselfe for fear it should be miss'd . my lord , j asked him what friend it was ; nay , saith he , you can not know that , nor you cannot have it till he is in a condition . to tell you truly , he had been a good customer to me both for himself and friends , and j was loath to deny him it , supposing j should have it again . j afterwards did not , to my best knowledg , meddle or make at any meeting , j was never at any of those meetings after the businesse at basing lane , because j disliked them ; but afterwards j did suppose that this ten pounds was for captain titus ; for j did put it to him , and said , j am afraid you did furnish titus with that ten pounds : what then , said he ? then j shall require it again of you : so he put me off , and run out of the land. my lord , for any other meetings , transactions or knowledge of any other thing from the time of the meeting in basing-lane , j know none . for the prisoner at the bar , truly j do not remember , and j am confident j was never at his house in my life , nor changed one word with him . at. gen. did you meet with titus in fleet-street . bart. j did , my lord , and j asked him whether the king that was dead ( for j knew he was much about the king , because j had heard it ) and j asked him ( j say ) whether the king was a man of those parts he was reported to be . titus told me , not only of his parts , but vertues : truly j suspected then , that titus was not the man he seemed to be , and j feared he was a cavileer in his heart ; and truly that did occasion me , with the dislike of others , to leave their company . at. gen. there were sometimes private fasts at your house , wha● w●s the occasion of them , and vvho spoke to you for them ? col. barton . my lord , i do not remember the party that sapke to me , i am not certain whether it were master vickars , but cannot positively say it , or whether it were by sir matthew brand , or by whom they desired to meet , they met in a room at my house to humble themselves before the lord ; and i cannot say any thing of the fast , because i had customers , and i did think i was bound to serve my calling ; and i was not there above half an hour , and it was up and down , off and on , there were divers ministers , who did exercise at that time . att. gen. who did exercise at that time ? col. barton . i was not there much of the time , but i think mr. jenkins , and to my best remembrance , mr. love was there ; there was mr. tate the parliament● man , to my best remembrance ; i think mr. jaquel was there , and there was sir matthew brand. att. gen. what other ministers were there ? col. barton . i think mr. case , and to my best remembrance mr. robinson ; but i am not certain . att. gen. what was the occasion of your fasts , and at your house ? col. barton . i knew no occasion , because i was not there , but have heard , a servant of my house , who was there , gives this relation . mr. jenkins began in this maner , o lord , thou knowest we are not meet to put up complaints against any , but to humble our selves before thee , and to pray , that the sins of the land may be pardoned ; but i do not remember there was any word , but for the pardoning the sins of the nation . att. gen. was there no sins named in particular ? col. barton . my lord , i do not remember . att. gen. my lord , ask him whether any body hath been with him , to call for any money for any parties beyond sea ; for massey or any others . col. barton . i shall give you a true narrative of that , i understood , my lord , that after the prisoners that were taken at dunbar were come down the river , there were divers citizens , both men and women , that came to see them , and made a relation of their misery to be such , as i have not heard ; and there was one among the rest , that said there was a peice of meat reached down among the prisoners , and two or three catching at it , it fell down among the dung , and they took it up , and eat it ; there were divers did move for a contribution to them , and it was a pritty while before i did contribute any thing ; there was captain far with me , and desired me to give him some money , and he did not propose the use ; but to my best remembrance , it was either for charitable uses , or for some in misery . now i was loth to ask him for what charitable use , because i did not desire to be known to give such a sum of money to the scotch prisoners . i had a little money which i had devoted to charitable uses in my own purpose : vvhen the pa●liament granted my petition for reimbursing the money i lent , i did promise fifty pounds to charitable uses ; and this , i confess , i did intend for the scotch prisoners , but was loth to ask him , because i would not be thought charitable to your enemies ; but did it not under that relation . att. gen. mr. jaquel , you know william drake and mr. love very well , do you not know that mr. drake and mr. love , were very familiarly acquainted ? jaquel . i must needs say , mr. drake would be acquainted with all the ministers in london ; and i cannot say , he was more acquainted with mr. love , then with any other minister . captain far is called into the court , and is sworn . att. gen. my lord , let him acquaint you with what passed at the white hart in breadstreet . cap. far , i desire the benefit of my papers . att. gen. at whose request did you come to the white hart in breadstreet , and when was it ? far. by william drake . at. gen. was that the first time you were acquainted with any thing of this nature , for carrying on and prosecuting of an order , to the furtherance of an agreement between the scots , and the king ? vvhat do you know of that , at what time was the meeting . cap. far. it was about two years since . at. gen. vvhat was the discourse at that meeting ? cap. far. it was the drawing up of some heads of a letter , which might be sent to scotland . at. gen. what was the effect of it ? cap. far. it was to this effect , to the best of my memory ; for it is so long since . here captain far was at a stand , whether through infirmity of speech ( for he seemed to be slow of speech ) or otherwise , i cannot say ; and he or the attorney general for him , made great use of the papers of his examination . at. gen. to desire them , the better to bring them to an agreement , that there might be moderate propositions . cap. far. it was to moderate their desires in the agreement , between the king and the scots . at. gen. what to do ? cap. far. that they might abate of their demands . at. gen. of their former demands , that they might be the more like to agree ; was it not so ? cap. far. yes , my lord. att. gen. was it not propounded likewise , that some should be sent to the king , to perswade him to give satisfaction to the scots ? far. it was propounded by titus , but not approved of . att. gen. but did you not agree to send to the scots that you did agree to , and were there not heads which titus , or drake , did undertake to write , and afterwards were drawn up ? far. i saw no letters . att. gen. but did not drake tell you he had sent them to master baily in scotland ? captain far being at a stand , the atturny generall asketh him again . did not william drake tell you , a letter was sent accordingly into scotland ? far. yes he did tell me , he had sent letters . att. gen. my lord , let him give you lordship an account before the treaty at jersey , where drake met with him , and what he propounded to him , whether to send to jersey , and what persons , and upon what message ? far. mr. drake did say , that captain titus did say , it was requisite for one to be at the treaty at jersey , and i had it from drake , that titus did undertake to go himselfe thither . att. gen. what was his imployment to be there , and what money was to be raised for him ? — did he tell you he wanted money ? far. after mr. drake desired , i would help him to ten pounds , and titus was in want of money to relieve his necessities ; and upon this request i did leave ten pounds in mr. drakes ware-house . vvas drake present ? far. i think he was , i was promised it again , but never received it . at. gen. my lord , let him inform after this negotiation of titus was ended at iersy , whether there was not a letter written by titus , and whether this was not read in the presence of mr. love , and some others , and whether at mr. loves or no ? l. pres . upon the ending of the treaty at iersey , and bredah , were you not present at mr. loves house , when it was signified from titus , that it was not convenient for him to come into england , because he thought he was discovered to the councell of state , and desired some body to be sent to calice to take an account there of his negotiation ? far. yes , my lord , i was there . att. gen. where , at mr. loves house ? far. yes . att. gen. in what part of his house , whether in his chamber , or study ? far. in his study , as i remember . att. gen. was the letter read there , and who read it ? far. william drake read it . at. gē . what was the substance of the letter , as you remember ? far. it was forsending one over to calice . at. gen. was mr. love present when this letter was read ? far. yes sure , he was present . att. gen. was it agreed that one should be sent to calice , to take an account of it . far. it was desired , and i was propounded to go . att. gen. who named you to go ? far. mr. drake . att. gen. what was the occasion that major alford did go ? far. it was his sons being there , that was gon from him . att. gen. but then it was agreed that alford should go ? when alford did return from calice again , and there was an account given of his imployment , where was this account given ? and where were those papers read that did give the account ? far. it was given at mr. loves ; but i cannot say , he was present at that , for he was absent sometimes ; i cannot be positive to say he was present : i do conceive he was present , but cannot positively say it . att. gen. what was the substance of the account given by alford , or drake , or who read it ? far. it was a narrative that he had been at calice , and what entertainment he had . at. gen. vvas there a copie of a letter brought thither written from the king to the presbyterian party ? far. i cannot say , he brought it . at. gen. what was the substance of the letter ? far. to send commissioners to the treaty at bredah . att. gen. what else was in the letter ? did not the king of scots declare in the letter , that he would give satisfaction to the scots , and in order thereunto he desired commissioners ? far. it is so long since , that i cannot remember it . at. gen. i ask you , whether it were not to this effect , to declare that he was willing to give satisfaction to the scots , and to that end desired the presbyterian party to send commissioners to bredah ? mr. love. this is grosse darknesse , for you to dictate words to him , and then to say , vvas it not thus , or to this effect ? and so to put into the mouthes of the witnesses what you would have them say . at. gen. vvhen you go in darknesse , it is grosse treason . mr. love. eight witnesses have not proved , that i either w●it letter , or received letter , or lent money . att. gen. vvhat was the effect of the letter ? far. it is so long since , that i cannot speak particularly , but it was to send commissioners . at. gen. the copie of the letter that came from the king by major alford ? far. i do not say so , sir. l. pres . such a letter as they conceived to be brought from him , as they read . at. gen. what was that ? far. that he had been with titus , and did bring the narrative from him , or to that effect . att. gen. was it not to be communicated ? far. yes , it was so . l. pres . what was the narrative read from titus ? who were present at this meeting ? far. there were severall there , but i cannot positively remember any . att. gen. was mr. love there ? far. i cannot say he was . l. pres . was doctor drake there ? far. i cannot say positively , that he hath been at any meetings . l. pres . when you were of this meeting , and major alford returned this at mr. loves house , was doctor drake there ? far. i cannot say it . l. pres . was mr. jenkyns there ? far. i cannot say it . l. pres . how many were there ? far. about ten , or twelve . att. gen. ask him , whether this meeting , when this letter came from the king , advising to send commissioners to treat with the king at bredah ? whether was there not a commission named , and persons named to treat ? far. william drake read papers , but it was not agreed upon by the company , because private persons could not give commissions . l. pres . was it not debated at that meeting for a commission to be sent accordingly ? far. wil. drake read papers there , that was in the nature of a commission , but it was not agreed upon by the company , because private persons could not do such a thing . l. pres . was it not in order to the treaty ? far. it was to advise with them about the treaty . att. gen. was it not read in the presence of the company ? far. the commissions and instructions were read in the presence of the company , but they were not agreed upon . att. gen. was it not in the name of the presbyterian party in england ? far. as i do remember , the commission was in the name of the presbyterian party , for i did but onely hear it read . mr. love. let him speak vivâ voce . far. to the best of my remembrance , it was for the presbyterian party , but positively , i cannot say so ; my lord , 't is two years since , and as near as i can remember , it was so . l. pres . the commission you say , was not agreed to , but the letter and instructions were ? far. william drake did undertake to draw them up . l. pres . were they drawn up , and sent ? i am not able to say they were . l. pres . who were to be the commissioners ? far. my lord willoughby of parham , alderman bunce , major generall massey , colonel graves , captain titus . att. gen. vvhat were they to do ? far. to advise , but not to treat in the behalf of the presbyterian party . l. pres . not in the behalf of the prebyterian party ? far. no. att. gen. vvas there not an agreement of letters to be sent to the queen , and no proposals that way ? far. no , my lord. l. pres . what was the substance of that letter read ? far. it was , as i remember , to have the queen perswade the king to give satisfaction to the scots in their just demands . att. gen. was it not moved then to be debated what power they had to send a commission , and by what authority they should do it , and by whom was it spoken ? far. it was demanded , what authority had private men to send commissioners ? att. gen. did not you go afterwards with some over into southwark ? far ▪ yes . att. gen. where did you go ? far. i went with major alford , and with alderman bunce his sonne , and i went to gravesend . at. gen. what other company was there ? far. no body else , nor had i gone , but at the request of master alford . att. gen. did you know that mason went ? far. there was no such man went along with us . att. gen. did no body tell you that mason went with the instructions agreed upon ? far. there was a gentleman we met with at gravesend , that i conceive to be that mason . att. gen. did he carry the instructions ? far. i cannot tell . l. pres . did no body tell you so ? far. not as i remember , i did not see any delivered to him . l. pres . do you believe he carried them out of these circumstances you heard ? far. yes , i believe he did , i am upon my oath , and to say positively , i cannot . att gen. were there not letters left at your house , and for whom , and what did you with them ? far. there was at my brothers house letters left , but they were returned . att. gen. but for whom were those letters ? far. they were directed to william drake by titus . att. gen. were you at colonel bartons house at the fast ? far. i was . att. gen. who officiated there , was mr. love one of them ? far. i cannot say positively , i believe mr. love did . l. pres . do you believe , mr. love was one of them ? far. i conceive he was one of them , and mr. robinson . at. gen. did he not pray for a blessing upon the treaty , between the king and the scots ? far. that was done , but i cannot say it was by mr. love ; but these words were said there . at. gen. were you at a meeting at mr. loves , after the fight at dunbar , a remarkable time to this nation ? far. i was there , but came in late . att. gen. were you there , when a letter was read from massey ? far. i did not hear it read . l. pres . what do you know of it ? far. there was such a letter came , to assist the king with money and arms ; but it was not agreed upon . l. pres . do you sware such a letter came ? far. i cannot swear positively . l. pres . did the gentleman tell you so ? far. he did tell me so . l. pres . the letter did write likewise for arms and ammunition , did it not ? far. yes , and for money . l. pres . did not mr. love tell you , they could not do it . far. i did understand it was mr. love. att. gen. did not mr. love tell you , they agreed to raise a sum of money for massey , and titus , and graves , and some of them ? far. yes , he did . at. gen. what was the sum of money , and for whom was it agreed upon ; did mr. love tell you so ? far. i say mr. love did tell me , it was agreed upon for the sending of some money , whether or l. i cannot say positively ; and it was to relieve massey and titus in their necessities . att. gen. did not mr. love move you to contribute to this ? and what did you contribute ? far. mr. love asked me , and i did promise five pounds , and brought five pounds , and laid it down upon his table . at. gen. who was in the room then ? far. there were several . l. pres . do you know none of them ? at. gen. mr. love saith , he hath neither writ , received , nor sent ; but he doth not say , he did not mend letters . far. i brought five pounds in a paper , and laid it upon his table . l. pres . and was he in the room ? far. yes , my lord , but i cannot say , any else was . att. gen. i could tell you who there were more ; mr. case was there too : my lord , ask him if it were not agreed between them , that it should be so brought . far. as i did understand it was so ; it was so for my particular , but i cannot say it of others . att. gen. did not mr. love speak to you to that purpose , to bring it in that way ? far. i cannot say he bid me lay it down . l. pres . what was the maner of mr. loves requiring of you , or notifying of it to you , and the maner of your pursuit of that ? here captain far was at a stand , and made no answer . att. gen. i will make it very short , whether this were not done , that there might be no discovery of it ? far. it was done to that effect , that there should be no discovery of it , i did it under that ●otion . l. pres . and do you not think mr. love conceived it under that notion ? far. i cannot say he did . att. gen. were you not spoken to by cap. massey , to speak to colonel barton to lend money ? far. i did speak to him . l. pres . what was that ? far. ten pounds , as i conceived , for i received it from him in a paper . att. gen. to whom did you deliver it ? far. to cap. massey , masseys brother , my lord. l. pres . you received it from col. barton ; cap. massey bid you speak to col. barton for a sum of money , and he gave it to you , and you gave it to cap. massey . att. gen. was the money , as you conceived , returned to massey and titus ? far. i cannot say it was . l. pres . do you believe it was desired to be raised to that purpose ; and do you think it was done according to that purpose ? far. i do not know . att. gen. whether do you conceive , that this money you thus brought to cap. massey , was not for massey and titus ? far. i do conceive it was . at. gen. and was not mr. love commonly at your meetings ; and whether , after drake went away , the meetings were not at his house ? far. i met with mr. love often at h●s own house . att. gen. this money was taken up under the notion of a charitable use . far. i do conceive it was given them under that notion . mr. love. sir , he gave you a large account of the negotiation with titus , pray ask him if i were privy to it . far. i cannot say so . l. pres . do you believe it ? mr. love. you say the copy of the kings letter ( you suppose ) that was brought over by alford , was read at my house ; whether did i hear the letter read in my house ? far. i cannot say you did . l. pres . was not mr. love , when the letter was communicated , sometimes in the room , going , and coming ? far. i cannot say when it was read , but i say he was there during some part of the communication , but i cannot say he was there at the reading of the letter . at. gen. these are good questions , my lord. mr. love the court will judge of that . l. pres but do you not conceive that he understood the contents of it ? far. i do conceive so : mr. love ▪ but he doth not say , it was so . he said there was a narrative read from titus , i desire your lordship to ask him whether i was present whiles the narrative was read yea , or no. far. i cannot say any thing to that , i cannot swear he was there . mr. love. ask him whether i did not go often out of the room . far. i did observe that when mr. love hath been there , he hath been often called away , and hath been absent , and therefore i cannot say such a thing was done when mr. love was there . att. gen. he hath before prov'd it upon oath , that he was there sometimes . mr. love. but look before , and he said , he could not say i was present when it was read . mr. love. this narrative , whether was it a copy written by alford , as news brought over , or the copy written by titus himselfe ? far. alford said it was a narrative from titus . mr. love. pray ask him whether i did send alford over yea or no , or agreed to the sending of him over . far. i think he did not , but he was sent by william drake . mr. love. my lord , whether was he not privy to it ? he told you titus his letter was writ before alford went. far. but it was not agreed upon . att. gen. titus his letter that he writ , that some might come to him , to receive an account of him , was read at master loves house . mr. love. i move this question , because alford , who was the man sent , confessed that william drake sent him . he pretended there was a commission read in my house , i desire to know when or at what time , whether before the . of march , . far. i am not able to speak to the time , it is about two years since , or something under . mr. love. i desire sir , to ask him this question , whether the rude draught written by william drake , or the originall copy was sent away . far. there was only a rude draught that drake read , and then afterwards drake was to draw it up . mr. love. ask him whether i gave my consent to the sending away of this commission ? far. i cannot say mr. love was there when it was sent away . att. gen. did mr. love make any protestation against it ? far. it was agreed by all , that that the commission could not be sent . mr. love. ask him , whether i did not declare in the company , when there was such speech of commissionating , that it was an high act of presumption for private persons to commissionate any , and a notorious falshood , to say it was an act of the presbyterians , and whether did not i declare my self against sending the commission ? far. i did say , it was agreed upon by all , that we could not send the commission . mr. love. i can prove , if i may have the witnesses indemnified , that i declared against any commission . l. pres . mr. love hath declared then he knew of the commission . mr. love. i acknowledge the dis-avowing of any commission , j gave my reasons for it . att. gen. my lord , j hope you will remember what the prisoner sayes . mr. love. j do not own any thing about concurring with any commission , but only dis-avowing of it . after dunbar fight , he saith , he came late , and he cannot tell whether the letter was read at my house , onely he sayes , j told him so ; and whether was that the letter , or a copy of it . far. j cannot say that . mr. love. the most that j have done , is but to receive news , and j hope j shall not die for that : was this letter of massey written to me ? far. j have said already , j cannot say so . mr. love. i would be glad to be freed in court. l. pres . you are a very free man indeed . mr. love. he speaks of a sum of two hundred and fifty pounds , or three hundred pounds , sent to massey , and titus , pray ask him , whether i did agree that it should be sent ? l. pres . did he dis-agree ? far. i said , it was agreed to , but by whom , i cannot say . att. gen. did mr. love at that time dis-agree ? far. i cannot say , he did . mr. love. did i move captain far , or say , captain far , will you contribute five pounds to massey , or titus , or any money ? far. you asked me the question , what i would do ? mr. love. but for massey , and titus ? far. i did conceive , it was for massey , and titus . mr. love. he sayes , he laid it in my house , and he so far justifies me , that he cannot say i received it , and god is my witnesse , i never did see it in my life : if another man agrees to receive money in my house , i hope the court will not judge me for it . l. pres . it is an easie matter for you to take it , and convert it to another use . far. i do conceive that captain massey had the money . mr. love. now you clear me ; another man brings the money , and i doe not order him to bring it , and another receives it , and not i. captain far withdrawes . att. gen. now my lord , we shall conclude in a very short word , with a minister to a minister . master jackson the minister is called into the court. mr. jakson . sir , i dare not swear . l. pres . dare you testifie the truth , when god calls you to it ? for god will appear in no other vision then in the power of magistracy . mr. jackson . i dare not speak against this mans life . l. pres . dare you speak the truth before a magistrate ? mr. jackson . that that i say is this , that i look upon this man , as a man very precious in god's sight ; and my lord , i fear i should have an hell in my conscience unto my dying day , if i should speak any thing that should be circumstantially prejudiciall to his life ; and in regard of these terrours of the lord upon me , i dare not speak . att. gen. i think all the jesuites in all the colledges have not more desperate evasions or shifts from the purpose then these men have . my lord , you now see what a desperate combination here is , that men being before authority , and in the face of magistracy , in such a court as this is , so eminent in the presence of it , and so authorized as this is , that men should dare to dally as they do , and that ministers should say , they dare not speak the truth , not when treason is hatched and contrived , they dare not speak the truth ; that this man should be more precious , though a traitour , then the common-wealth which should be preserved . i hope we shall root these opinions out , or some of the parties that hold them : that i will say . l. pres . master jackson , you are one of the parties in these meetings , you have been at their meetings , and we require nothing of you but to speak the truth . saint austine will tell you , that to conceal a truth , or tell a lie , you had better let the world fall about your ears : you are required nothing but to speak the truth , and will you say this truth will be a torment to your soul ? are you a professour of jesus christ , a minister of god ? the great errand you are sent hither about , is , to speak the truth from him ; therefore lay your hand upon your heart , and do as becomes you as a christian , and as a rationall man , and as one that will tell truth , for by the truth the world stands : we are all no better then savage men , if we have not judgement to tell truth one to another . att. gen. my lord , suppose mr. love should kill one of these men , ( that doe hear the debate ) in the presence of mr. jackson , and he should be called to give evidence , and refuse it ; he may take away any mans life ; personall respects should be set aside , when we come to judgement . you see , my lord , the person of this man , how it is preferred by this man. that which is the truth , you are required to speak , and nothing else . l. pres . have you any oath or promise among your combiners , to be secret in this businesse ? mr. jackson . never in my life , my lord. l. pres . will you take your oath ? mr. jackson . i dare not , my lord. l. pres . what is your reason ? mr. jackson . i have told you my lord , and i will tell you it again , i am a man of a troubled spirit , and i dare not do any thing that should cause a hell in my conscience to my dying day . l. pres . do you look to die ? mr. jackson . yes , my lord. l. pres . and do you expect to live again ? mr. jackson . i trust in jesus christ i shall live again . att. gen. my lord , i desire your clerk may be commanded to give him his oath , and ●e required to take it . the clerk tenders him the oath . l. pres . will you take this oath , or not ? mr. jackson . no ▪ my lord. l. pres . then i think you are the men that were spoken of before , jesuits and priests : they say , you are none , but you are their brethren . att. gen. my lord , these go beyond jesuits , the jesuits will swear with a reservation , and these will not swear at all ; this man must be proceeded accordingly with , for if this be allowed , i conceive there will be no justice in england . and in respect of the quality of his person , function , and gravity , by so much is it a more pernicious example , and it aggravates the thing every way . l. pres . let it be known here , that it may be dispersed abroad , and i thinke there are some of most counties of england . and this air is gone forth , this very plot is secretly spread with some chief ministers throughout all england . att. gen. this right they have done to many of them , that i believe it will make a more severe inquisition into these persons , then otherwise there would be : it is not bloud that is look'd after , but confession and contrition . i am glad that those that are not clergy men do come in ; and the clergy will not confesse at all . the court consults a while . l. pres . master jackson , for your refusing to swear , the court fineth you five hundred pounds , and imprisonment during the pleasure of the court. the keeper of the fleet is called upon , and commanded to take him into custody . mr. love. my lord , i have some motions humbly to make to this court. the first is , to intreat your lordship , and the rest of the members of this court , that if i have let fall any expressions through inconsideratenesse , or for want of skill in the law , that have been an offence either to your lordship , or to any , i beseech you , if i have spoken any derogating expressions , or made any unseasonable motions , that you would impute it to my ignorance . l. pres . none of them shall hurt you . mr. love. then i intreat this favour , that i may have counsel assigned me , & soliciters here in court , and in my chamber at the tower , and a copie of my charge , and convenient time , as the nature of the businesse requires , my charge being long , and i have not read a word of it , nor the depositions : that i may have , i say , counsel assigned me , & convenient time to bring in my answer ; & i am confident , through the good hand of god upon me , i shall clear my selfe of all the treasons charged upon me , and of all their aggravations , through straines of wit , and quillets of law , by instruments of state ; i am confident , i shall clear my innocencie , that i shall not stand a traitour before you . l. pres . they being instruments of state , are instruments of god , appointed by the state. for your time , you have all this afternoon . are you not ready ? mr. love. i was yesterday nine houres lock'd up in that close room , and in this place , and i could not read one word last night , not out of trouble of mind , but through wearinesse , being kept so many hours in the court. att. gen. my lord , he hath had a fortnights notice of his triall to prepare for it ; my lord , wee have been two dayes , and by the course of proceedings , if the gentleman had had his triall by a jury , both must have been dispatched in one day . we are appointed to go on to hear his defence now , or else on munday . mr. love. i desire a convenient time to bring in my witnesses , to make it appear how the witnesses against me contradict themselves ; i have not yet read the depositions of one man , and i cannot read the depositions by munday , and to morrow is a day that some time of it should be spent in other imployments . l. pres . to do justice , you must run out of the church , and though you were at your prayers , you must forsake praying and sabbaths , to do justice ; sir , this is of a higher nature then all your preaching , and praying . the court consults a while together . l. pres . the court all agree to give you till wednesday eight a clock in the morning . mr. love. i desire that i may have counsel here , and in my chamber . l. pres . you have shewed nothing these two dayes , that raises any doubt in matter of law. mr. love. there are some things in my charge , that i doubt this court cannot take cognizance of , something in those acts , and something in respect of the time . it is matter of law , whether the act speak of sending , or receiving letters , or messages . and here are eight witnesses come in , and never a man proves that i received letter , or sent letter , or lent any money . and this i conceive is matter of law , whether the acts reach , being present onely where other men lay down money . l. pres . you have had counsell ? mr. love. my lord , i have had none . att. gen. for counsel , you are to send him none , my lord ; he hath his liberty , he hath recourse for all the people in england to come to him . mr. love. counsel have refused to come to me , i have there letters about me . here he reads the letters of some counsellers which they sent to him to the tower , declaring they could not come to him unlesse they were assigned by the court. att. gen. all that we can say to you , is , that counsell may come to you , if they will. master love is commanded away , and the court adjourns till wednesday . the third dayes proceedings . july . . the court is set , and mr. love is commanded to the bar. att. gen. mr. love. this is the day the court hath given you , ( according to your desire ) to make your defence , and they are ready to hear it . l. pres . and i hope those directions that have been given , have been observed , that any persons of what qualitie soever , either lawyers , or others that came to you , have had in a fair way accesse unto you . and that you have been debarred nothing that the court gave order for ; if there have been any impediments , we will do our best to have them taken away . att. gen. my lord , i have nothing more at present against him ; you have heard that whereof he stands accused , and the evidence produced to prove it : and my lord , i hope they be sufficient to convince the gentleman , that there is proofe against him for these facts , and treasonable designes , whereof he stands accused . this day is appointed for is defence , if he think fit to make it ; but if god hath otherwise wrought upon his heart , and that he himself is convinc'd , that the charge against him is proved to be true ; to me it will be the best way of his preservation ; but what way soever he thinks fit to take , i shall be ready to go along with him in it ; and so my lord , i expect what he shall say . mr. love. my lord , i shall not trouble your lordship , and the court , to bring in at present any witnesses , to testifie any thing that might invalidate that testimony that some have brought in against me ; i love not to protract time , but i should betray my own innocencie , should i by my silence lie under all that charge and obloquie which is cast upon me : and therefore , i deem it my dutie wherein i can , and as far as i am able , to expresse my selfe before your lordship , and the court ; and therefore i humbly crave leave of your lordship , and this court , that i may make my defence for my life before you . although i am denied counsel to plead for me in this court , which is so just and necessary a means for the preservation of my life , yet my comfort is that of the psalmist , my defence is of god , which saveth the upright in heart , and pleadeth the cause of his servant against him that puffeth at him . my lord , you have granted me that favour , which the romans did to paul , that he might answer for himselfe , concerning the crimes laid against him . in making my defence , i shall humbly crave leave to proceed in this method , to speak something first concerning the charge . dly , concerning the witnesses and their testimony . dly , some thing concerning my selfe ; and then lastly , some things humbly to propose to your lordship , and the court. concerning my charge . mr. atturney general hath exhibited a charge against me consisting of two parts . of high treason , and of other high crimes and offences . as touching the first , comparing the acts which the state hath made , with the actions which my selfe have done , i know not any personall act of mine , ( proved against me ) that renders me guilty , as to treason , by any publick act of your lordships ; and therefore i pleaded the generall issue , not guilty , as to that . as to the second , my counsell , having a general license to come to me , and since having been with me ; they have acquainted me that presence with , or silence at what my accusers have done , this renrenders me culpable by your acts . and therefore as to that , i shall humbly commit my selfe to your justice and mercy . concerning sir , the charge laid against me , i can safely and truly say , i am charged with many things , which i ought not ; being pretended to be done before the act was published , which constitutes this court ; i am charged likewise therein with many things that i knew not , and with other things that i did not ; and therefore dare not in conscience lie under the obloquie of the whole charge . i do therefore in generall declare and protest against what is mentioned in the charge , touching the raising of insurrections , seditions , and rebellions ; i may say in that regard as jeremy did , i desire not that wofull day , god he knows . to the other particulars , to wit , the confederation with jermine , piercy , and others in forraign parts , to raise forces , i answer , i dislike the very mention of their names , or any concurrence with them in any practise of such a nature ; who are persons , whose principles are so contrarient to religion and liberty . as touching the other particulars ; to wit , a correspondence with the son of the late king , the queen , jermine , and piercy , and others mentioned in the charge ; i doe declare before you , that i never received letter from , nor sent letter to any of them , nor had i any correspondence with them . there are other things in the charge , to which all the depositions of the witnesses doe not in the least come up : and should i by my silence , render my selfe obnoxious to the whole , you might judg me to be guilty of that which indeed i am not guilty of . i observe in reading the charge , that there are many things in it , which the witnesses doe not in the least speak unto . for first , none of them swear , that ever i writ letter to the king , or to the queen , his mother , or to jermine , piercy , or any other person named in the charge , or to any person of the scottish nation , since the troubles began . againe , none of the witnesses swear , that ever i either desired , or perswaded , or directed any person to write any letter to any persons , whose names are mentioned in the charge ; or to any person in , or of the scottish nation ; nor do any of them swear , that ever any letter was written in my house : but that onely letters supposed to be come from , or sent to the scots , were read there , which i do not deny . again , none of them swear , that ever i did so much as read a letter in my house , or other where , that was pretended to come from the scots , or pretended to bee sent into scotland . further , none swear that ever i gave my expresse and particular assent to the sending away of any letter . and none swear , that ever i collected one peny of money , either for the king , or the scots , or any person in scotland . that which is affirmed by one testimony , to wit , by alford , that i moved for money , i shall answer when i come to it . again , none of the witnesses prove , that ever i invited any person , or forraigne forces , to invade the nations of england , and ireland , which yet is laid expresly to my charge , in the charge read against me : none likewise prove , that ever j plotted , contrived , or endeavoured to raise forces , tumults , or insurrections within this nation , against the present government . none swear , that j was a correspondent ; jndeed adams in his testimony had these words , ( which both the notarie and my selfe took , ) that he took me to be a correspondent : but when j had your lordships , and the courts leave to put this question to him ; whether upon oath he would affirm j was one ? his answer was , that he could not positively say j was so , but he said , he did conceive j was a correspondent , but did not say j was so . so that sir , as to these particlars , there are none of the eight witnesses , ( neither the seaven , that have been sworn , nor yet master jaquel , whom j doe not take to be under an oath , ) that doe charge any of these particulars upon me . j have a word also to speak concerning the witnesses , who are my accusers , and j might say , there is an incompetency in them , as to their number . there are many particulars sworn against me , to which but one witnesse hath sworn to one fact ; and this j shall humbly offer to your lordships and the courts consideration . j might alledge also an incompetencie , as to their quality , they are not onely persons accused of treason , and so are not to be believed , but they have made an open confession of that which is treason by your act , and so are not legales testes . they have done that by an open confession , which as j am informed , is equivalent to a conviction ; they have confest , sending of letters , receiving of letters , and lending of money . but they have proved none of these things against me . now they having both given it under their hands , and also publickly declared that they have done these things , i cannot judge them competent witnesses against me ; but this i must leave to the courts consideration . sir , concerning the incompetency of their number , to that wherein two witnesses doe concurre , i am concluded . and wherein they have testified any thing true , i would not deny it for all the world , and wherein they agree in their testimony in a truth , therein i will be candid , and ingenuous to acknowledge it . my lord , though the charge be long , and my time but short , and the depositions many sheets of paper , ( and truely i could hardly read them over , till late last night ) yet through the good hand of god upon me , i shall labour to make as plaine and clear a defence as god shall enable me . sir , in reading over the charge , i observe , that those things which seem most criminall against me , are sworn to , but by single testimony , and i will mention with your lordships leave a few particulars . first , touching the letters , said to be from titus , the effect of it being as was said , to desire some to come over to calice , that he might give them information touching affaires at jersey , none but far swears that , this letter was read in my house . the other witnesses , some say , it was read in one place , and some in another ; alford , i remember , he sayes , he heard it from william drake , and adams sayes , it was read in william drakes house , but none but far swears it was read in my house . there is likewise none but far swears , that major alford was desired in my house to go to calice to titus , neither jaquel , nor potter , nor alford , nor adams , nor any of the rest lay this to my charge ; it is onely far , that layes this to my charge , and he doth it most untruly , which i will make out unto you by an undeniable demonstration . he says , that at a meeting at my house , the company did desire major alford to go to calice . now if your lordship observes alfords testimony , he tels you upon oath , that he was never in my house , till after he came from calice , nor ever spake with me in my life , till after he came from calice , therefore could not be desired in my house to go to calice . so that sir , i will not lay it upon the badnesse of far 's conscience , but upon the badnesse of his memory . i do not think he is such an atheist , to swear falsly deliberately , but being ask'd so many questions as he was , for he was ask'd fourscore and eighteen questions by mr. atturney , and some of the court , he might easily say , he knew not what . and i saw the man was confounded , and it was hinted to him what to say , by the help of the papers , and examinations taken from him in private , and shewed to him in publick ; so that sir , i saw the man under a temptation . i was loth to mention this then , though i knew his testimony herein to be be false , because i would not anticipate my last answer . a d particular charged upon me by one witnesse onely is a copie of a letter , ( not the originall , none swears that ) that alford received from titus , and he told him , it was a copie of a letter from the king. now far he swears that the substance of the letter was to desire commissioners to bee sent over to bredah , at the treaty there ; now alford , who pretended to receive this letter from titus , being ask'd the question , he swears that there was no such thing in the letter , that he knew of . now truely , if any did know the contents of that copie of a letter , it must be alford , who brought it over ; i beseech your lordship therefore to consider it , and though the charge against me be very high , and my condition very low , and the opposition against me very great , yet i hope i am in the hands of mercifull and just men , and that wherein you see but single testimonies , that therein you would be very tender in proceeding to a sentence against me upon those testimonies . again , in the next place , i observe a single testimony only in another businesse , and that is major alford ; none but he of all the witnesses , did swear that it was agreed upon among us , that is , at my house , that a commission , and instructions should be sent over to the lord willoughby of parham , massey , titus , and alderman bunce ; none , i say , but alford swore this ; adams indeed , swore that there was a motion that this should be , and huntington swore this , that mr. love should say , come , come , let it go , ( to which i shall answer when i come to it . ) but far said expresly , three times in court , being upon oath also , that all the company were against sending away the commission : and alford he onely swears , that the commission was agreed upon . i hope your lordship , and the court , will judge which of these to believe , and for alfords affirming that it was agreed upon among us , i am sure , if he had any conscience , he could not say that i agreed to it . i will not deny ( now witnesses have proved it ) but that i was present . but i did expresse my selfe against the commission and instructions , as being an act of high presumption , for private persons to send commissions and instructions ; and as being an act of notorious falshood , that it should run in the name of the presbyterian partie ; when none did know any thing of it , that i know of , but onely those that were then in the room ; and i beseech your lordship , and the court , to consider that this is not onely a single testimony , but that it is said to be done in the year . a great while ago , my lord : and so the businesse of titus , if it had been true , was done some time before that ; so that sir , it being done before the act of the th of march , . which constitutes this court , herein i hope it will not be deemed criminall , if i had agreed to , and approved of the commission , which i never did . another particular , to which i observe , there is but a single testimony , which is alford also ; he swore , that at a meeting at my house , i moved for contribution of money to titus : none swore this , but onely he , adams swore , i took pen and ink in my hand , but he knowes not what i writ : others swore that i was sometimes present at the meeting , but none but alford swore that i moved at a meeting for contribution of money . now sir , as to that it is but a single testimony ; and if it were true , i do not deem it comes under the act , because the act ( of which i was ignorant , till the day i heard it here in court ) of the second of august , , that act doth adjudge this to be treason , to wit , the sending , or causing to be sent money , horses , or armes , into scotland . now sir , if it had been true , which this witnesse deposeth , that i at a meeting did move ▪ for money , yet he proves not against me , that ever i received or sent away a penny ; and if i had moved it , that had neither been a sending away of money into scotland , nor a causing of money to be sent away ; and so brings me not as to treason under your act . another thing , unto which onely a particular witnesse swore ; to wit , far , is , that i moved him particularly to contribute money ; he chargeth not this at a meeting , as alford doth ; for he sayes , he came in late , but saith that it was a personall motion to him alone ; and he doth not say , that i moved him for money , for massey and titus , but that i onely ask'd him this question , captain far , what will you do ? and if your lordship consider it , and that your notaries have taken right , you shall find that to be his answer , which i shall answer when i come to it ; and thereupon he confesses , he brought five pounds to my house , but he doth not tell you that i received it , and god is my witnesse , i never saw it , nor received it , nor did i give any directions about it ; but as far was going out of the court , he named captain massey , the person which hee thought received the money ; for which hee was rebuked by some that were by him , that so the greater odium might lie upon me ; as if because the money being brought to my house , i must needs therefore receive it ; his name , as i am informed , that rebuk'd him for declaring , who received it , is captain bishop ; so that they would insinuate into your breasts , who are my judges ( who i hope will be conscientious ) that it was i that received the money , when the witnesse meant honestly , that another received it ; but if i had received it , or moved for it , yet he is but a single testimony to that particular . again , in reading the depositions , i take notice that there is onely a single testimony to those words ; ( upon the reading ; reading i cannot say , for i never read it ; upon the hearing some papers read , supposed to be a commission ) that huntington swore , that i should say , come , come , let it go . those were his words ; but the other who were there present , two or three of them being ask'd whether they heard me speak such words , they all of them denied that they heard any such words . now truely , this huntington is a man whose face i never saw before that day , nor since , till i saw him here in the court ; and if i had known that a businesse of any dangerous nature had been come to my house , which i did not ; ( for i knew no more of it , then any here present , before drake took the papers out of his pocket , which huntington confesses were written in characters , and read by drake , ) i should have been accounted a very indiscreet man , to speak any such words in the presence of a man whose face i never saw before . and for those words , that i should say , come , come , let it go . i hope your lordship , and the court , will be satisfied , that i never spake any such words ; as to the commission and instructions , for then i should have contradicted my self in one breath . for at the same time , i had spoke against it . again , i observe in the depositions , none but adams affirms that there was a letter , which sayes he ; was declared to be directed to the generall assembly of scotland . he doth not swear it was directed to the general assembly , but that it was declared to be so , and so swears by hear say : none but he ( i say ) affirmes upon oath , that at my house there was a letter read which was declared to be directed to the general assembly . and he says further , he thought this letter was pend by master love , or d. drake . but i beseech your lordship and the court to consider by what reason he did conceive this , and i hope your lordship will distinguish between a positive assertion , and a conjectural supposition . for being ask'd why he conceived so ? i conceive so , says he , because of the language of it ; as if he that never saw any letter of mine , to know that poor and low stile i write in , should conceive that either i , or that other gentlemen named , should pen that letter , meerly because of the language of it ; it being ( he said ) in order to promote the ends of the covenant . i hope the court will judge of the insufficiency of this evidence ; and were it never so clear , yet as to that particular , it is but one testimony . again , none but adams sware concerning a large letter , that for my part i never knew of , till the day he affirmed it here in court. a large letter , he sayes , in the nature of a declaration , pend as he thought , by master love , or doctor drake , wherein it should be said , that they could not send mony , till the scots did appear more considerable , and grew nearer to action . yet he confesses he had no ground to say , master love pend it . and indeed , he had not . but sir , as for this letter , though i durst not for a world deny any thing which i know to be true ; yet god is my record ▪ to any knowledg , i never so much as heard any mention of it . and as for these words he speaks of to be in the letter , i know nothing at all of them . nor did i ever hear them , as i know of , till i heard him affirm them here in court. but if it had been so , yet he is but a single testimony , and i beseech your lordship to consider that he says it was to this effect , or this was the substance of it . now i hope , so many grave judges and lawyers that sit upon my life , and so many conscientious men , will be tender of a mans bloud , when a man shall come in with evidence , and shall shew neither my hand , nor the letter , nor the originall , neither copy , nor transcript , nor any thing but the vain rovings of a mans memory in things spoken or done so long ago : and that a man shall come in against a mans life , and shall only say , that this was the summ or substance of it , or it was to this effect : and i being a divine , i shal not speak as to matter of law , that this is insufficient testimony , but as a scholer , and one that studies the scriptures , i shall observe one memorable instance that pleads my justification in this particular ▪ and they are the words of christ ; christ said , destroy ye this temple , and in three dayes i will raise it up : now the scripture in mark , says , there arose certaine and bare false witnesse against christ● saying , we heard him say , i will destroy this temple , &c. i beseech your lordship to consider , that in this testimony of the false witnesses against christ , there is only the variation of a word , and the addition of a letter ; there is the addition of a letter , i , and the alteration of the word ye for will , ( there 's all ) for christ did not say i will destroy , but , destroy ye , and yet the scripture takes notice of it , that this addition of a letter , and alteration of a word , brought his accusers under a false testimony ; though they spake according to their intention , for they did verily beleeve he spake of the temple , for they said , forty years was it in building . so that i beseech you be tender in matters of blood ; i know you who are skilfull in the law do know that the proof of treason must be as cleer as the sun , probationes opportent esse luce clariores . now when a man shal come against a mans life , and cannot shew any letter that ever he wrote , or that ever he did receive ; but shall only swear it was to this effect or to this purpose , or i beleeve this was the substance of it , i hope you are so wise and consciencious , that you will passe no judgement upon this conjecturall evidence . another particular , to which only one witnesse testifies ; and that is adams , he swears that i should say , that if the presbyterians were in armes , by the blessing of god , malignants might bee prevented from getting the day . truly , i do not know what crime is in these words , but as they may be wrested . but sir , i do remember that this adams hath often come to my house ; he said , seven or eight times ; he might have said , seven and twenty times : for he hath come some times once or twice a week to my house , to tempt me ( as i now perceive ) and hath offered me mony : and would ask mee whether i knew any thing for a publick use that might require money . and though i never suspected him , yet so free am i from maintaining correspondencie , or from having intelligence , or contributing of money to maintain a war , that i never received one peny of him in my life , though i have been moved to it by him : but i remember , of late especially , about a quarter of a yeer before i was in prison , hee would come once or twice a week to my house , and he pretended that he was wrought upon by me , and that i had turned him from his malignant principles ; for he was very violent for hamilton's invasion of england , which i was , and to this day am against ; and i did labour to possesse him what a mischievous design that was : and so he pretended to be turned to my principles , and upon this got some room in my affections ; but these words were not above a fortnight before i was committed to prison : and i remember , the occasion of them was this ; i was bewailing the great alienation and difference that there was between the presbyterian and independent partie ( though i do not love names of distinction ) and indeed , thus i said , that if the godly party , that are now disunited and disjoyned , both of the dissenting and the presbyterian way , were in arms , there were no hopes that ever the malignants should get the day . and god is my record , i spake nothing to him but to this purpose . and thus through the good hand of god upon me , i have spoken to what i observe in reading the depositions , wherein i finde but single testimonies against me . i shall now crave leave ( which is the main of my work ) to run over the depositions as briefly as i can ; for i shall not trouble you with large speeches : but being the depositions were large , and the witnesses many , your lordship and the court ( i hope ) will bear with me with the more patience , if i speak more largely in it . it is 〈◊〉 duty to speak for my self , and 't is for my life . the first witnesse that 〈…〉 in court against me , was henry potter . as to his testimony , there are many particulars whic● 〈◊〉 was ask'd about me , to which he spake but conjecturally ; as he thought , and as he beleeved , and as he conceived . and when papers by m att. gen , of his examination were tendred to him , he answered , that then he had a latitude to speake more then he durst affirm upon oath . and upon this i shall humbly crave leave that i may make this motion to you , that you would not , in passing judgment upon me , hearken to any private examinations , which are extrajudicial to be brought in court against me ; for most of the witnesses had their private examinations shewed them in court , and were read to them , and they did not speak in their relations of what they knew , but what they conceived ; and when they could not tell what to say , then their examinations were produced to direct them ; and i hope your lordship and the court will take notice of this . and herein i cannot but acknowledg the justice of this court in this particular , that you would not receive private examinations till they came face to face , that i might answer to the crimes laid against me . but as to his testimony , i shall not run over things that touch me not , i must not flatter my self to passe over things that concern me . for i know it will be look'd upon with more prying eyes then mine are . there are onely two things in his testimony that concerns me . he speaks not of any meetings at my house that he knows of ; he speaks not of any money that ever j lent him or gave him , though there was a narrow and exact examination of him in those particulars . but two things concern me in his deposition : the one is , that he received a letter with a great l upon it , from one colonel bamfield , which was a narrative of the affairs of scotland , which letter , with two more inclosed from my lord of argile , lowden and louthain , he said , he brought them to mr. loves ; and herein j might take notice , that he forgot himself a little , for he might have said , that he brought them first to mr. jaquels ; for jaquel did affirm in court , that potter brought the letters to him , and spake to him to come to me . the substance of the letters from the earl of argile and the rest , he sayes , were to move for ten thousand pound ; and ( as j remember , jaquel sayes , for five thousand pound : but potter himself acquits me in this matter ; for he doth not swear the letter was to me , nor could he swear it justly ; nay , he swears , he did not think it was to me . and as for this bamfield , he is a man whose face j never saw to this day . and he swears , ( and indeed , he had been injurious if he had not told you thus ) that when he came into mr. loves house , he said , mr. love , i have news to shew you . and unlesse things be aggravated against me by the insinuations of men , and by rigid inferences and collections , this will be the worst charged upon me , that there were severall meetings at my house , and severall letters read there ; which j do not deny : but sir , he confesses , that he said , [ mr. love , i have news to show you ; ] and that he opened some of the letters , and that some were not opened when he brought them : but neither he nor jaquel swears , that j opened them . and he tells you , that he carried the letters away with him . and he swears further , that both my self , and all that were there present did manifest an utter dislike and detestation of those letters . but herein j know what will be laid to my charge . jt will be said , why did not mr love reveale them ? truly to this j do ingenuously say , that j did conceive , by reading of the act that constitutes this court , that these onely were bound to reveale , that did receive them ; and not that j was bound to reveal that which another man received . but herein j am better informed by my councel , and they tell me , that presence with , or silence at what others do , makes it a criminall fact in me , if the matter of the letter be criminal and treasonable by your acts ; and therefore in this , that j did not discover them , j shall humbly beg your favour . the next thing in potters testimony that toucheth me , is , he swears that he heard of a proposition for raising of l. for titus and massey : but he varies from the others ; alford said , or l. and far said , or l. and potter saith , l. but he saith he was not present when the proposition was made , and therefore he cannot speak as to that . but yet saith he , j brought ten pounds to mr love's house , and there left it ( five or six persons more being in the room . ) mr. att. gen. was pleas'd to ask him whether he did not give me a twitch by the hand or cloak when he brought it ? potter , i remember , denyes that he did so , and i do not remember that ever he did it , nor do i remember that ever he laid penny of money down in my house . and i tell it you in the presence of god , i never saw it , nor received it to this very day . but sir , if he had given me a twitch , which is intended as an aggravation against me , i hope a judicatory will not proceed upon so silent a thing as that is . though solomon says , there is a teaching with the fingers , yet that is so silent a thing , that a court of judicatory cannot take notice of it , unlesse it be manifest and apparent by some act . and therefore seeing he doth not affirm that i saw the money laid down , or that i received the money , or directed or ordered him to come to my house with any money , i hope you will not lay that to my charge . and thus i have done as to that particular . there is onely one thing more in order to the letters he was examined about . he was ask'd what answer was returned to those letters that he received from bamfield , and the earl of argile , and the rest , that he shewed mr. love. to that he gave this account , that a letter was left at his shop , which he thought ( he said ) came from mr. love or doctor drake . now sir , for my part , i declare in the presence of god , that i never in all my life , either wrote or sent , or left letter at his shop : and although , i am not to plead an other mans cause , yet i believe , that godly minister he mentions , will clear himself also ; but i must onely speak to my own defence . for my part , i never in my life , sent letter to his shop , written to those persons : and he onely swears , that he thought the letter left in his shop , came from me or doctor drake : but how could he know from whom it came , or what was the matter of it ? and if it had come from either of us , which he did not affirm , yet he doth not say he opened the letter , and so could not tell the contents of it , that it was an answer to the supposed letters he shewed me . i have onely one thing to observe in his whole testimony , and that is , that he confesses until he had a sight of other mens examinations in private ; to wit , of alfords and adams , the things did not come to his remembrance , or words to that effect , he hath in his depositions ; and that there were some things , to which he could not speak exactly , till he first saw some informations ; and that master attorney general did shew him some informations , and that did bring things to his remembrance ; and that before captain fisher , and mr. attorney did prompt him and remember him , he had forgot ▪ so that sir , j beseech you consider , whether this be a clear and good testimony in law , that when a man hath forgot a thing done so long ago , he shall through the examinations of others , have his memory rub'd up , and then shall come here in a publike court , to testifie this against a mans life . the next witness is major alford , he gives you a large relation about sending titus to jersey , and of a l. given him for his journey , and of letters to the queen , and jermine , and percy . my lord , j am as ignorant of all these things , as the childe unborn , and did never know that titus was gone or sent to jersey , by any person , till a long time after j heard he was there , and till j heard of his name in the diurnals , that he was an agent for some presbyterians ; till then , god is my record , j knew nothing of that ; and j need not speak to this , but because this was part of my charge , and brought in to the court ▪ many may imagine , as if j were guilty upon the whole matter ; but that which concerns me , is this . he affirms that the commission and instructions were agreed upon , at my house , to send to some persons ; to wit , my lord willoughby of parham , massey , titus , and alderman bunce , to treat at bredah ; and this to be in the behalf of the presbyterian party . now sir , i shall humbly crave leave to offer , wherein this testimony is not onely disagreeing with the testimony of others of the witnesses , but even to his own testimony also : for here he says , it was agreed upon at master loves house , and in three leaves after , he says , it is true , there was a commission and instructions read at mr. loves house ; but whether they were agreed upon there or no , saith he , i know not : i do not say , he hath a bad conscience , but sure i am , he hath a bad memory . he disagrees with the witnesses also ; for far did expresly affirm upon oath , that all the company was against sending them away ; and therefore , for alford to say it was agreed upon among us , in that i am sure he doth not speak truly . another thing which alford layes to my charge , is about a letter , which after dunbar fight should come from massey , wherein he should write for money , and for arms , by the way of holland ; and he swears , this letter was read in my house , and says , that upon the reading of it , i did move for the contribution of money to be raised for the supply of titus . now before i answer to that , though i am not in a condition to retort , yet i shall humbly crave leave without offence to mr. attorney general , to intreat the court to take notice of this one thing : master attorney general , when the witness had spake these words , did pray your lordship and the court to observe , that massey wrote for arms , and mr. love moved for money ; as if he would insinuate to the court , that he writing for arms , and i moving for money , that my moving for money was to buy arms : now alford upon oath did declare , that every man there was against arms , and he onely said , that the motion for money , was to supply the personal necessities of massey and titus , who were in want : so that i intreat you to consider it , that that insinuation of mr. attorney general , might not be aggravated against mee , and that a bad inference might not be drawn from it , as if hee writing for arms , and i moving for money , that that money should be to buy arms ; which is contrary to major alfords oath . againe , another insinuation of m atturney general is this , he prayed your lordship and the court , to consider , that i moved for three hundred pounds . now this is contrary to alfords oath ; for alford hath these words , mr. love did move for the contribution of money , but there was no summ spoken of . now when he shall affirm , that there was onely a motion for money , but no sum spoken of ; shall this be laid to my charge , as if i moved for l. ? therefore i intreat you , that those insinuations and aggravations of mr. attorney general may not be laid upon me ; and that ye would take no notice of any private examinations , nor yet of any aggravations of those who are instruments of state ; but upon the plain deposition of the witnesses , and according to their testimony and your consciences , i must stand or fall . alford said further , that after he came from titus , he gave an account of a narrative , and of a copy of a letter from the king of scots ; what he might bring , i know not ; and if he did , i never desired him , either to go to calice , or to come to my house : for i never spake with him ( as i remember ) till after he came from calice , nor till the time , he says , the letter and narrative was read in my house : now sir , he onely says it was a copy of a letter ( not the original ) . that titus ( saith he ) did show me a copy of a letter , at leastwise , which he said was from the king to the presbyterian party . so that this which is the foundation of the rest of the testimony , is onely this , that the copy of the letter was read at my house , and that it was a copy of the kings letter : this he affirms onely , upon hear-say , for he says , titus told him so ; but who can swear , either that titus had the original letter , or that this was a true copy ; nay , might it not be a fictitious thing , either of titus or of this man , as may well be suspected : so that they that receive letters , if that be treason , and those that write letters , and send money , if they be traytors ; yet they have proved none of these against me , and yet i onely am araigned , and they in hope of favor . again , i desire the court to take notice , though captain far says there was this clause in the copy of the letter from the king , to send commissioners to bredah ; ( and yet he overthrew his oath afterwards : for says he , it is so long ago , that i cannot remember it ; but i shall speak to that when i come to it : ) yet alford that brought this letter , affirms , that he did not know it was to desire commissioners to be sent ; and if it had been so , i should never have done it , and never did it : at that time i was in my study , j do not deny it , but when drake read the commission , j did declare my dislike of it , and detestation against it ; and so did ( as fa● affirmed ) either most or all the company : and if any such thing were sent , god is my record , j did neither know of the writing of it , ( other then in characters ) nor of the contriving of it , nor yet of the sending it away , till j heard alford confess in the court , that he carried this commission to gravesend to one mason , a man whose name j never heard of , before j was in trouble : and if j had written and consented to it , yet it was in the year , one thousand six hundred forty and nine , as major huntington swore ; and therefore was before the time that your act could take hold of me , if j had concurred to it , which j never did . again he insisteth upon it , that i moved for a contribution . now herein , i beseech your lordship , that i may offer these two things . first , this is but the single testimony of one man , and by the law of god , and of the land , a man must not die , but under the testimony of two or three witnesses , in the old testament , deut. . and . one witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity , or for any sin in any sin that he sinneth : at the mouth of two witnesses , or at the mouth of three witnesses , shall the matter be established . and least this might be thought to be a judicial law , pertaining onely to the jewish state ; it is therefore quoted four times in the new testament ; by christ , in matth. . by paul , in cor. . and in two other places ; as noting it to be a law of moral equity , that no mans life should be taken away , but by express and clear testimony of two sufficient witnesses . now in this that may seem most to pinch upon me , that i should move for money , there is but one witness ; and it is , as i am informed , contrary to the laws of the land , and the statute of the first of edward the sixth , which provideth , that no man shall be indited , araigned , and convicted for treason , but by two lawful and sufficient witnesses ; and therefore i beseech your lordship , and the court , that you would be tender in those things , wherein you finde but one witness speaking . the other thing which i shall say to this point , about moving for money , is , that i humbly conceive the act doth forbid relieving persons in arms : but now no person can be relieved by a bare motion ; it is not the motion , but the having the money moved for , before the person in arms can be said to be relieved ; and if it were true , yet it is not proved , that those persons were then in arms : the other act of the second of august , i conceive , gives me relief if i had moved for money ; for it judges those onely to be guilty of treason , that shall either send or cause to be sent , money , horse , arms , and ammunition into scotland . now sir , if i had in a meeting moved for money , yet he tells you not for how much i moved for , for ought he knows it might be but for six pence , for he cannot swear to it ; and i hope , when the sum is not spoken off , you will be very tender . yet this comes not under your act , either to be a sending of money into scotland , or a causing of it to be sent , which is not in the least fastned upon me : when i askt him ( though he swore i moved for money ) whether i contributed any money my self , to that he answered , he could not say i did ; nor could any of the eight witnesses that came in against me . and thus i have done as to his testimony . the third witness is major huntington , and he affirms , that in the year one thousand six hundred forty and nine , one askt him to go to my house , and told him there was some there at prayer , and that he might there hear some news ; and that he spake upon hear-say : but then he spake upon oath , and when i came there , prayer was done . now for a man to be so positive in the first entrance of his testimony , as to say prayer was done , when he could not know that there was any prayer there at all , ( for when he came , it seems there was no prayer , and how then could he know there was any prayer there at that time ? ) this at the very first entrance of his evidence , i suppose might be a just ground to suspect his whole testimony ; but as for the man , i knew him not , i never saw him , as i said , before that time , nor since , till i saw him here in court. this man affirms , that william drake read in characters , that which he called a commission , and said , that he had command from the king , to send this commission away , which god is my record , i never heard , nor ever knew of it ; and alford that brought over the letter , in which far swore those words were , he himself denies it . but that which concerns me in huntingtons testimony , is this , he affirms , that when the commission was read by drake , i should say , come , come , let it goe . now sir , i askt him this question , let it go , what doth that refer to ? says huntington , let the papers go . now truly , i am not so bad a grammarian , as to speak of papers , let it go , and not to say , let them go . and if i had spoke of papers , as he says i did , i must either be guilty of non-sense , or else he of falshood , i believe he of both . but as for those words , come , come , let it goe ; he doth not affirm , that i said , come , let it go away , but let it go , and that may be a word of dislike : and if i did say so , yet it was not of the commission , god is my record , for he came not till nine of the clock at night , as himself says ; and before he came , i had declared my self against sending away the commission and instructions , as being an act of two high a nature for private men , and of notorious falshood , to say it was in the name of the presbyterian party , when it was not : and the other men that were here in court upon oath , and that were then present , as adams and alford , did confess upon examination , that they heard no such words from me . the next testimony is master adams , and he relates a story of a correspondency between william drake , and one mason , and being ask'd , was master love privy to this correspondency ? he did so far clear me , that he could not say it , nor was i privy to it . being ask'd again , was master love privy to these letters of sending moderate propositions to the king ? that he likewise cleares me in , he cannot say it . and i can say , that i am so far from moderation in their sense , that moderation ▪ ●n their sense i deem downright malignity , which i was , and still am utterly against . he was asked likewise , did master love know of collecting a hundred pound for titus ? to that he answered , that he durst not upon oath say that m. love was privy to this collection , and he doth not say that it was agreed in my house , to send away the commission , but says , it was moved in my house : for sayes he , i cannot say it was agreed upon , for there was no vote past . these were his words , and he contradicts alford and farr in three places of his testimony . he overthrows alfords deposition . he affirms , that the copy of the letter from the king , was to shew what great affection he bare to the ministry of england , and promised great favour when he was in a condition to do it , and desired them to stand stedfast in the way they were in : and he saith , he dare not swear that this letter was read in my house , but he thinks it was . now as to this letter likewise , j desire the same favour from you , that when the letter doth not appear , neither the originall , nor the individuall copy , that you would be tender of passing any judgment upon me , upon the vaine rovings of a mans memory ; and of a mans memory too , that is ingaged to prosecute my life , to save his own , as most of the witnesses that came in against me are . he saith , there was a motion made in my house , that a commission and instructions should be drawn up to send to my lord willoughby of parham , and the rest in holland , but sayes he , by whom i cannot say ; and says he , there was no debate , as i remember , to mend the instructions ; though the atturny generall did lay it upon me , as if i had corrected and amended them , when j did neither read them , no nor so much as touch them in my life . the substance of the commission he tells you was to authorize the lord willoughby of parham , massey , graves and others , to assist their brethren of the scotish nation in their treaty : now to this there is a manifest contradiction in another mans testimony . for c. farr swears , that the commission he speaks of was not to treat , but only as private persons to advise that the king might agree with the scots , upon the interest of religion and the terms of the covenant , that he might not be drawn away by the high flown cavaliers , and malignants , so that far overthrows this testimony of adams : adams says it was to treate , and farr says , it was not to treate but to advise : but be it the one , or be it the other , j detest both , j had no hand in , and gave no assent unto it , but manifested my dissent to the whole . he being likewise askt ( for j am still upon adams his testimony ) whether at a meeting it vvas not propounded at my house to vvrite to the queen , and to jermin , and percy , to mediate vvith the king to agree with the scots . to this he ansvvered no , and truly he might very vvel answer so , for j am sure j did never in all my life hear of a motion so much as of a letter to be writ to any of these three persons , to the queen , percy or jermin ; and should have loathed and abhorred the very thought of it ; and should think that cause the worse , wherein these persons were ingaged ; being ask'd whether there was not a letter from percy , that writ for mony to be sent to the king , and whether the answer given was , that they should stay till the king and scots were agreed , and then to send mony : adams in this did me this right , he confest , he saw such a letter writ , but ( says he ) i only saw it in the hands of one mason , a man who for my part , i never knew , nor heard of till i was in trouble : and being ask'd whether this letter from piercy , was read in master loves house , he said , certainly no. being again ask'd whether about august there was not a letter written from massey , wherein he said he had back friends in scotland , and complained that he was not promoted there , and whether that letter was communicated at master loves house ; in this also he did me right , for he answered , no certainly , that letter was not , to the best of my remembrance , read there ; i heard of such a letter , but saw it not . then being asked whether one sterks was not a scotch agent , and whether he did not use to come to my house ? to which he gives this answer : we took him to be a scotch agent , and he met sometimes at master loves house : now sir , as to that , he supposeth that he was an agent , but doth not swear that he was so , much lesse that i knew him to be so . nay , i can swear upon the best information i have had both from his own mouth , and the mouths of others , that he was no agent , for he lived in england fourteen years , and had not been in scotland in fourteen years . and i heard himselfe say so , when he went away upon the act ; and i asked him , are you imployed by the church or state of scotland ? and he told me no , he was not : it is in your breasts whether you wil believe me or no : and likewise m. blare when he was here in london , did affirm to me , that he was a poor honest man , and that he was no way imployed as an instrument of state. i know nothing of the mans agency , be he agent or not , i never sent letter or message by him , nor received any from him in all my life ; but i see it is laid heavy upon me in my charge , that i contributed mony to him : but no man in his depositions did prove that i ever gave him a penny . adams being ask'd , whether master love did not write down the sums of mony that was to be contributed to massey ; in this he doth me right also , for he saith , master love had paper in his hand , but i did not see what he wrote , and therefore to that i need not answer ; being further ask'd , did not master love put the first letter of their names before the sums which others wrote , he answered , he could not say so . being ask'd further , was there not a letter pend by master love and doctor drake , this answer hee gives , there was a letter , but ( says he ) i cannot deliver it upon my oath that it was pennd by them , but i thought it was so . he could not tell to whom this letter was directed , but said , it was declared to be directed to the generall assembly of scotland : now as i observed in the beginning , this is only the single testimony of one man , and indeed it was the first question ( as i remember ) that was ask'd me , that was of moment , when i was examined by the committee , whether i did not penn this letter ? i did declare to them in the presence of god , that i neither pend that nor any other to any person of the scotish nation since the wars began , and this i declare in the presence of the same god , still to be a truth . being ask'd further , was master love present at sometime of this meeting ? he answered , i was , and the reason why he thought that we might pen it , was because of the language of it . m. atturn . gen upon this ( i remember ) uses this expression , my lord , this is very high , after we were ingaged in blood , that a letter should be sent . but to this i say , there is only a single testimony , that such a letter was writ , and whether it was sent or no , he doth not prove , nor doth he prove that i writ it ; and i declare to you , that i never writ it : as touching this letter , which m. att. gen. is pleased to insist upon so much , adams , being ask'd whether it was agreed upon that this letter should be sent ? he gave this answer , it was after the same manner that other things were agreed upon : but there was no vote past , and therfore he cannot prove my particular and expresse assent to the sending of the letter , or any other letter whatsoever ; and here to take off the jealousie of a correspondency ; which in the close , through the grace of god i shall clear to you ; but to take it off now a little before i come to it : if there had been a correspondency maintained , would it have been imaginable , that from the time of the fight at dunbar , which i think is ten months since , to this time , that there should be no letter that any man can say , nor that i did certainly know of , that either was written or conveyed , or debated upon to be written , from that time to this very day , to any of the scotish nation ; and yet all this tends to aggravate matters against me , and all the burden is laid upon my weak shoulders . other men that have heavy loades , have laid them upon my back to lighten them from off themselves . touching this letter , he saith , this was the substance of it , or it was to this effect , or purpose ; and again i insist upon it to beseech your lordship and the court , to take heed what you do . it concerns you more th●n me , it concerns my life only ; but it concerns your honors , and lives , and souls and all , that upon an uncertain evidence you do not spill a mans blood . the man never read the letter , only he heard it read ; and then he brings in to that and other letters , this is the summ of it , or it was to this effect . and though this man hath done me injury in some particulars , yet in others he hath done me right . for being ask'd , did master love write letters , or receive any , or mend those instructions , he only swears , he saw the letters , but cannot say i did read them ; being ask'd whether i did give my consent to the sending away of that letter after dunbar fight , which is so much insisted upon , and so greatly aggravated , he did thus farr right me ; he said , i will not swear he did give his consent ; being ask'd whether i was a correspondent , he said , he took me to be a correspondent , and upon these words i had leave to ask him this question : whether he knew j was a correspondent ? to this he said , that letters were heard by me , but said he , j cannot swear that he was a correspondent , j did conceive master love to be a correspondent , but j did not say so , and j dare not swear that he was a correspondent . so that herein likewise there is nothing but his humbly conceivings and his suppositions , according to which j hope you will not passe any censure upon me ; and thus j have done with adams testimony . the fifth testimony is that of jaquel , which i do here again in court except against , as no legall witnesse , for he did declare he could not in conscience take an oath against me . he did well nigh half an hour declare he could not swear , but that he would make a narrative or relation of what was true i did intreat your lordships leave to put it to him whether he was under an oath or no , and he said twice at least , j am as good as under an oath : if any person good or bad come under an oath , j must stand or fall by his testimony , and according to gods ordinance , an oath is to decide all controversies : but the man declared , he was not under an oath ; and went out of the court , and was fined five hundred pound ; and when afterwards he was called into the court again , he did onely put his hand upon his buttons on his brest : so that this was not any taking of an oath ; but fearing his fine ▪ he did it , though with much seeming regret of conscience ; and i am informed this day , that he denies , that he was under an oath : and if so , then i have nothing to say to his testimony , and so shall not speak to it , but onely as to a bare relation , and naked information . there is nothing that doth concern me in his testimony , but onely a concurrence with potter ; potter and he coming to my house , with some letters ( as he saith ) one from bamfield , another from argyle , louden , and louthian , and belcarris ; and another from one master batly , if i remember right . now sir , as to these letters , i do not deny , but that they brought them to my house ; nay , i do acknowledge those two men did bring those letters to my house , at leastwise , which they said were such ; but whether they were the originals , or copies , i know not ; for i never read nor kept the letters , but they carried away the letters with them ; and captain potter said , master love , i have news to shew you , at that very time when mr. jaquel and he came to show them at my house . this witness , i cannot call him so , but this informer saith , that being askt what was done upon the hearing of those letters , he said , potter read the letters ; but that there was no agreement upon it , but an utter dislike in all that heard them , about the contents of them : and he hath these words further , it was , says he , a trouble , i am confident , to them that heard and read the matter of those letters ; but being askt , did master love agree to the giving of forty pound to bamfield , and his man ? to that question he answers thus ; he said , there was no agreement , but it was thought convenient by all . upon this , i craved leave of your lordship to ask him this question , how he knew my thoughts , that i thought it convenient ; to which , he gave this answer , i cannot say any thing , that master love did say , it was convenient . so that therein , though he might presume upon a mans thoughts to know them , yet he must onely judge my thoughts by my words , as the tongue and heart agrees ; for he is not a god : but he doth not say , that i said it was convenient ; nor did either of them prove that ever i gave a peny , either to bamfield or his man. the last witness that came in against me , is captain far ; and indeed , i do not know what to make of his testimony , i will not call it a prompting , that will be thought too bad a word ; but certainly it was such a testimony , that i never heard produced in any court in my life . for master attorney general , and some others here , did ask him ninety eight questions ; so that the man spake nothing deliberately , but spake by reading out of his private examinations , which is extrajudicial to be brought in court where the witnesses are to speak vivâ voce . there was , i say , so many questions ( besides those i had leave to ask him ) propounded to him , during the time he was upon his oath ; and the man was of a dull spirit , and slow of speech , and i did perceive him to be so possest with fear , that he knew not what he said ; for he hath manifest contradictions in his testimony , which i believe all the court will see , and therein concur with me , when they come to hear them . the first word i heard him say in court , was this , to desire the benefit of his papers ; it seems he did suspect the badness of his memory , that he must have his papers to help him ( and papers written by another ) before he would be deposed in court against me for my life . being askt , whether upon the ending of the treaty at jersey , there was not a letter came from titus , to desire some body to come unto callis ? and whether that letter was read at any house ? and whether at my house alford was desired to go ? he affirms , he was ( which none else did ) and which is a most notorious falshood . i have no rancor in my heart against him , the lord knows i have prayed for all those that persecute me ; and my heart cleaves to them in love and pity : i do not tax the badness of his conscience , i think he dares not be so vile , but i do tax his memory in things done so long ago : and afterwards he says , he could not remember ought ( though he did pretend to remember ) because they were done so long ago : yet before he did affirm them now to demonstrate this that he says in this clause to be false , that alford was desired in my house to go , alford himself says he was never at my house , till he came from callis , which is certainly true ; and therefore alford could not at my house be desired to go to callis ; when there was an account given of alfords return from callis , then i know he was there , though i never spake with him before that time , as i remember ; nor was he ever within my doors till after his return : but says far , i cannot say master love was present , while alfords return was there read , for sometimes he was absent . then further being ask'd what was the substance of that copie of the letter from the king that alford brought from titus ? he answered , that the sum of it was this , that the king of scots did declare he would give satisfaction to the scots ; and in order thereunto he desired commissioners to be sent over to breda ; these are the words of his testimony . now sir , this is but the single testimony of one man , and it is contrary to the testimony of that very man that brought over this letter : and if any man knew the substance of the copy of the letter pretended to be from the king , it must be alford that brought it over . certainly , none could know it better then he , and therfore for this man to be so strangely besides himself , and to forget himself , so as to say , this is the summ of the letter , when he that brought it saith the contrary , and did not know that this was the sum of it : this may seem strange , and j hope you wil judg of the weakness of this testimony . being ask'd whether he did not conceive this to be the copie of the kings letter ? he did me right in that , for he said , he could not tell whether it was the copy ; but that alford told him , he brought over a copy of the kings letter . and mr. at. gen. was pleased to aggravate this of cap. far against me : sayes he , the king sent over for commissioners to treat , and accordingly at mr. loves house it was agreed upon that commissioners should be sent , and there were persons named . to this j say , that , god is my record , i never in all my life heard ( as j remember ) of any letter from the king to that end , that commissioners should be sent over . and far doth me right herein ; for in answer to that question , was your commissioners agreed upon ? he three times answers negatively . j do not perceive that he remembers himself so well in all his testimony , as in that particular . being as'kd whether the commission was agreed upon , he said it was not agreed upon by the company ; and herein he did me more right then any man , for he gave my reason ; for ( says he ) the reason given was , because private persons could not give a commission . and though he hath done me more wrong then any man , yet herein he hath done me more right then any man. being further ask'd , was it not debated to send a commission over ? drake , he said , read a paper in the nature of a commission ; but it was not agreed upon by the company , because private persons could do no such thing . and a third time he sayes , the commission and instructions were read in a company at mr. loves house ; ( that he affirms , and that j do not deny ) but not agreed upon . and further he said , he did conceive , to the best of his remembrance , it was in the name of the presbyterian party of england ; but ( says he ) i cannot positively say it was so , for i did but only hear it read . then your lordship askd him this question , did you say , that the commission was not agreed upon , but that the instructions were ? to this cap. far said , that will. drake undertook to draw up the commission and jnstructions ; but yet , says he , i cannot say , that they were either drawn up or sent . again , he says further ( and herein hee doth me more right then adams or alford doth ) adams , he sayes it was not agreed upon ; yet he saith thus , there was a commission read for to treat , and so sayes alford ; but this man sayes directly , that this supposed commission was not to treat in the behalf of the presbiterian party . and it had been a folly for private men to assume such a vain title to themselves : so that he says directly , upon your lordships question to him , that it was not to treat , but to advise the scotch commissioners , and the ministers especially , to agree with the king upon the interest of religion and terms of the covenant : but being ask'd , was it not in the behalf of the presbyterian party . he answered no , being further askt : was there not an agreement at m. loves house for a letter to be sent to the queen ? herein also this man doth me right : he said no my lord ; & yet he contradicts himself likewise , for being askt in the next question , what was the substance of that letter to the queen ? he answered the substance of the letter to the queen was , that she should perswade the king to give satisfaction to the scots in their just demands : now either he must hear of this letter somwhere else , or else frame a fixion to himself , that this was the matter of the letter , when there was no such letter in rerum natura ; the next thing he charges me with is , that i should say it was agreed that mony should bee raised for massy & titus ▪ & he names the sum , he thinks or l . and that i therupon should particularly move him with this question , c. far , what wil you do ? now i beseech your lordship & the court to consider , that he doth not swear that i said , we were agreed ; but it was agreed ; & that might be the act of other men , & not mine : and in an other place , he said they agreed ; but he doth not say , that j said , wee agreed ; to include my selfe ; but to that , that j should move him and say , c.f. what wil you do ? truly this is but a generall question , and he himself did me thus far right ; when i had leave from the court to propound this question to him , captain far , did i move you , or say to you , what mony will you give for massey or titus ? he answered , he did conceive it was for that use ; so that he proves not against me , that i moved for money for massey or titus ; but onely that i should say , captain far , what will you do ? and if you observe the words of the testimonie , they are these exactly . he tels you that he brought five pounds ; for there is all that ever i am charged with : i am not charged with lending a penny , but onely that fifteen pounds was brought to my house ; ten pounds by potter , and five pounds by this man : and he affirms that he left this five pounds at my house ; and herein i perceive a contradiction in the man , and therefore it is hard to determine when he speaks true , or when he speaks false : these are his very words ; mr. love ( sayes he ) ask'd me what i would do ? and i did lay down five pounds upon mr. loves table when severall persons were in the room . and being asked , did mr love receive this money ? he said he could not tell ; but was loth to tell , who he thought received it ; but in his last word save one that he spake in court ( which made much for my advantage ) he said , he thought i did not receive it ; and god is my record , i did not : but he said , another man did , and named captain massey . but the contradiction i observe is this ; he tels you , he laid down five pounds when severall persons were in the room : and in the next question but one , being ask'd , was mr. love in the room ? yes , my lord , sayes he ; but i cannot say any body else was there . so that therein the man evidently contradicts himself : and it appears he was under a very great fear , and even confounded by the many questions propounded to him . i ask'd him further , did i bid you lay it down ? sayes he , i cannot say that you bid me lay down the money . being ask'd , was this way of laying down of money to prevent discovery ? he said , he did it under that notion : but being ask'd by me , did i bid you lay it down under that notion ? he answered , he would not say i did . so that i neither directly nor indirectly did bid him bring money to my house , or lay it down when it was brought there ; but other persons were in the room , and he conceives what person took it away : therefore i beseech you make a candid and fair interpretation of what ▪ i have said or done . being ask'd about the copie of the kings letter , that alford sayes he brought over from titus , whether i was in the room whilest it was read ? he said , i cannot say that he was there when ▪ it was read : but he was there during some part of the communication ; but sayes he , i cannot say he was there at the reading of the letter , nor can i say he was present whilest the narrative was read . he observed i was often called away , and was absent ; and sayes hee , i cannot say there was any such thing done by mr. love. and i ask'd him this question , did i send , or agree to send major alford to calice ? hee answers , he thinks i did not ; and herein he falsifieth his former testimony ; for he said major alford was desired in my house to go to calice : and yet alford swore he never was in my house till after he came from thence . but herein he doth me right too ( though with contradiction to himself . ) he said , it was agreed at my house that alford should go ; and yet now he sayes he thinks i did not agree to the sending of alford . being asked further , whether did i give consent to the sending away the commission ? he answered , i cannot say mr. love was there when it was sent away . and truly i may say , who brought it away , or who drew it up , and what was done in it , i cannot tell ; there might be a thousand treasons in it for ought i know ; for i did neither own the reading of it , nor the sending of it ; but did utterly protest against both . being again ask'd , whether j agreed to the sending of it away ? he answered , it was agreed upon by all , that we could not send the commission away . when j ask'd him , did j say to you , captain far , will you contribute five pounds for massey and titus ? he gave this answer ; ( says he ) you ask'd me what i would do ? so that i conceived it was for massey and titus : and ●e affirms , he laid this five pounds down in my house ; but did not say that j received it ; and in the presence of god j speak it , j never saw it nor , received it in all my life . and thus with much acknowledgment , and blessing god , and thanking your lordship and the court , you have given mee leave to take a brief survey through the depositions of the witnesses , though they have been very large , and the charge against me very high . now having spoken to the depositions ( before i shall crave leave to speak something concerning my self , and make humble proposals to this court ) i shall add but one word , and it is this : i was loath , before i saw witnesses face to face , to confesse any thing : i deem'd it against nature for any to confesse against himself , unlesse he could be sure his confession should not prejudice him ; and i might have been guilty of my own bloud , if i had confessed : for then , did the matter confess'd amount to treason by your law , my life would be at your mercy , and you might hang mee upon mine own confession : and upon that ground i went resolved to the committee , and through the grace of god i resolved not there confesse a word nor tittle , till i heard what proof was brought in against me . and now i do ingenuously acknowledg . that there were severall meetings at my house , that these persons met there , and that this commission was read there : but i did utterly dislike it , and dissent from it . and that i was present at the reading of letters , either at the beginning , or end , or some part of them , i do acknowledg : and this i say , that i was ignorant of the danger that now i see i am in . the act of the second of august , doth make it treason to hold any correspondencie , or to send letters , though but in a way of commerce , into scotland ; let the matter of them be what it will be : now herein my councel acquaints me with my danger , that i being sometimes present when letters were read in my house , am guilty of a concealment : and as to that i do humbly lay my self at your feet and mercie . but as to treason , i do not know any personall act of mine proved against me , that brings me under any act of yours . and thus having briefly spoken concerning the charge in generall , and concerning my accusers ▪ and having briefly surveyed their testimony , i shall humbly crave leave to speak something concerning my self , and i shall be very brief in it . concerning my self , it is needfull i should speak a word : i would not stand under misrepresentations , to seem to be what i am not . i am presented unto some , as if i were a malignant , an apostate from my first principles , a mover of sedition ; and what not but what i am ? wherefore i am constrained to speak a word in my own vindication ; and i shall make the apostles apologie , i am become a fool in glorying : but ye have compelled me . i count it never lawfull for a mans own mouth to praise him , till another mans mouth accuses him ; and then he may without vanity be his own vindicator . what i shall say of my self , the lord knows it is not voluntarily , out of an affected ostentation , but by compulsion , for a necessary and cleer manifestation of my principles and practices now suspected . as touching malignity , i hate both name and thing : and , as cardinal farnesus said of himself profanely , that if he knew any part of him infected with lutheranism , he would cut it off , and cast it into the fire : that i can say truly , that if i knew any part of mee infected with malignity , i would cut it off with the pruning hook of mortification , and by an ingenuous retractation before you all this day . god is my witnesse , i never drove a malignant designe , i never carried on a malignant interest , i detest both ; i still retain my old covenanting principles , from which through the grace of god i will never depart for any terrour or perswasion whatsoever . when i look upon all the vows , and covenants , and declarations , and protestations of both houses of parliament , i do finde a sutablenesse between my judgment and them , and am not conscious to my selfe of any thing that i have done in opposition or contradiction thereunto : and therefore j may say as jeremy did when he was accused in the like case , of making defection to a contrary party , jerem. . , . irijah said to jeremiah , thou fallest away to the caldeans : then said jeremiah , it is false , i fall not away to the caldeans . so , if it be charged upon mee , that j am fallen from my first principles , or that j am fallen to malignity ; j say to any that shall so accuse me , jt is false , j fall not away to malignitie , j do retain as great a keenness , and shall whilest j live , and as strong an opposition against a malignant interest , whether in scotland , or in england , or in any part of the world , against the nation where j live , and have to this day , as ever j did in former times . j am no jncendiary or evill jnstrument , to divide the nations one from another . god knows , the grief of my heart hath been for the divisions , and the desire of my soul hath been for the union of both the nations : and if j had as many lives as j have hairs on my head , or as much bloud in my veins as there is water in the sea , j could count it all well spent to quench the burning that our sins have kindled between the two nations . j have all along engaged my estate and life in the parliaments quarrel against the forces raised by the king : my appearing in their cause was not from any aim at profit , but out of a perswasion of conscience , and sense of duty . j may speak it as paul doth it of himself , i was in labours more then they all . j speak it without vanity , j was , according to my obscure station and mean condition , in doing and giving in the parliaments quarrell , more then many . many gave out of their abundance , but j out of my want : and as christ spake to the widow who gave two mites , that she gave more then they all ; for she gave all that she had , even all her living : so did j ; though j gave my mite , yet j gave my all : and j did not only deem it my duty to preach for the lawfulnesse of a defensive war , but , unlesse my books and wearing apparel , j contributed all that j had in the world ; and that was no small summ , considering the meannesse of my condition . and j have at this day a great summ due to mee from the state , which is still kept from me , and now my life endeavoured to be taken from mee . and yet for all this , j repent not of what j have done ; though j could from my soul wish , that the ends of that just vvar had been better accomplished : then should we have been happy and united among our selves , and honoured among the nations round about us , j am so far ( j say ) from repenting of what j have done , both by doing and contributing , and suffering in the parliaments quarrell . that were it to do again upon the same unquestionable authority for the same declared ends , and against the same malignant persons , i should manifest as much readinesse of mind to engage according to my measure , as ever i did . and thus i have declared my selfe touching my principles , in these particulars ; i shall now crave leave to expresse my selfe a little touching my sufferings ; and then to make but a few humble proposals , and so cast my life into gods hands and yours . touching my sufferings ; i may say , that my whole life hath been a time of affliction , either of body or mind , god sees my heart to be a tuffe and knotty piece , that it needs so many blows to break it ; i may say with the psalmist , i have been afflicted from my youth up , and from my youth up i have met with opposition . from the prelates , being persecuted by them , meerly for conscience sake ; it is near twenty years since i was cited to the bishops courts ; i have been often troubled for hearing of sermons , and discharging other exercises of religion , which were an offence in those dayes : when i was a scholer in oxon and master of arts ( i do not speak it out of vaine ostentation , but meerly to represent unto you , that what i was , i am , and what j am , ▪ j was ) j was the first scholer that j know of , or ever heard of in oxon , who did publickly refuse in the congregation house to subscribe unto those impositions , or cannons imposed by the arch-bishop touching the prelates and common prayer . and for which , though they would not deny me my degree , yet i was expelled the congregation house , never to fit as a member among them . when j came first to london , which is about twelve years since , j was opposed by the b. of london ; and though j was called as a lecturer to ann aldersgate , yet it was near three years before j could fasten upon any lecture . after this , about the year , or , j was imprisoned in new-castle , meerly for expressing my self against the errors of the service-book , and was removed from prison there , by a habeas corpus , to this place ; and in this court of kings bench , j was acquitted . after this , about the beginning of the wars between the late king and the parliament . j was the first minister that j know of in england , who was accused for preaching of treason and rebellion , meerly for maintaining in a sermon in kent at tenterden , the lawfulnesse of a defensive war , at the first breaking out and irruption of our troubles ; but was then publikely acquitted in a court there , and recovered costs and damages of my accuser . after this j had a little breathing time , whilst the two houses of parliament were in power ; only j was once complained against by the kings commissioners at vxbridge for preaching a sermon there ; j did not know that j should preach there till the psalm was sung , and did only preach a sermon which j had preached the day before at windsor castle ; j was , j say , complained of by the kings commissioners to the house , for that sermon ; but within three weeks j was acquitted and discharged , by order of the house of commons . that sermon is much spoken of because it is so little seen , it is so obscure a piece , and many imagine , as if the keenesse of my affection was blunted from what it was in that sermon : but j declare unto you , that j come up to this day to every tittle of that sermon : j hear it is lately printed , and if it be printed according to the first copy , j will own every line of it , as that to which my heart and judgement concurs to this very day . after all this , since the late change of government , j have been three times in trouble ; j was once committed to custody by , and twice cited before the committee of plundred ministers , but there was no sufficient proof against me , and so j was discharged . but now last of all , this great and last tryal and trouble is come upon me : j have been kept severall weeks in close prison , and now j am arraigned for my life ; herein is my great comfort , even that which was the apostles , god that hath delivered me , he doth deliver me , in whom i trust that he will yet deliver me . and that that shall be made good to me ; he shall deliver thee in six troubles , yea in seven there shall no evill touch thee . as cato , he was accused thirty two times by the unkind state whom he faithfully served , and yet after thirty two times accusation , his innocency and uprightnesse brought him off . why should not i be confident in my god , who have had a life time of experience of his care and love towards me . it is not the danger of my life troubles me ; i am a sickly man , and i know a disease will ear long kill me , whatever you do with me ; but this grieves me more ; that i should suffer from their hands for whom i have done and suffered so much in my obscure station , and according to my weak measure ; had it been an enemy had dealt thus by me , and made such an eager prosecution of me , and such high aggravations of that which in the simplicity of my heart i have done , it had not been so much , and as i told the committee when i was examined by them ( who charged me with jesuisme and non-ingenuity , because i would not confesse against my selfe and others ) that though i honoured them as private gentlemen , and should acquaint them with what my self had done , when it should not be a snare to me ; but when they shall apprehend me by a warrant for treason , and examine me in order to a triall for my life , in no judicature in the world , will i confesse a word , till i first hear what will come in against me . now as i told them then , i never wrote letter , nor received letter ; nor sent , or lent mony to any person of the scotish nation . now that i should meet with this hard measure ; to have the most ridgid and severe interpretation put upon all my actions , to be look'd upon with so jealous ( i might say with a worser ) eye , that have in my measure ventured my all , in the same quarrell that you were ingaged in , and lifted up my hands in the same covenant , that have took sweet counsell together , and walk'd in fellowship one with another ; that from these i should have such hard measure , this , this troubles me greatly ; had i been so dealt withall at the juncto at oxon , i should not have been so troubled at it ; but to be dealt so with at westminster , this is that at which i stand amazed : yet blessed be god , i am not affraid ; my conscience doth not tell me of any personal act of mine proved against me that brings me under any of your laws as to treason . and thus having exprest my self , concerning my charge , and the witnesses , and my self . i shall now in the close of all say ( what ever tortured collections , or inferences , are drawn from my practises , and however lawyers may aggravate those things that in part have been proved against me ; yet i do declare in the presence of god , that what ever i have done , in the simplicity and integrity of my heart , i have done it ; and did deem it to be consonant and agreeable , both to my conscience , and to the protestations , and covenant i have taken : and i have done nothing out of animosity or from a spirit of revenge ; and thus j have done concerning my self . j have only a few humble proposalls to make to your lordship , and the court , and then j shall leave all to gods determination and yours . to you that are my judges , j humbly crave this of you , and j do it upon your lordships words , the first day of my appearance here . when you were pleased to deny me counsell , you said you would be counsell for me ; and j beseech you be so , for you are judges both of matter of law , and matter of fact . j may make use of that passage , proverbs . . solomon says there , that rulers must open their mouthes for the dumb , in the cause of all such as are appointed for destruction . truly , my lord , j am as a dumb man before you ; dumb in matters of law , j cannot plead one word for my self : j beseech you be as solomons rulers were , and open your mouths for him that is appointed to destruction ; you who are my judges , be my advocates , my life lies in your hands . and then j beseech you let me make this humble motion to you , that you would not count any thing that j have done to be out of animosity , or stoutnesse of spirit ; truly , nothing but conscience could carry me through all my sufferings ; i could not leave such dear relations that god hath given me , and such a loving people , and comfortable livelihood , as any minister hath within the walls of london : nothing but conviction of conscience , can carry me another way : and till conscience be fully satisfied , j cannot stir one step . the next thing j beg is to beseech your lordship and the court , to put a candid and fair interpretation upon all that j have done , or that by witness you have heard ; that it was no malignant design , though i do not own the management of any design : j never writ letter , nor sent letter to any of the scotish nation ; yet thus far j own the thing , that it was agreeable to my judgement and conscience : for j thought the interest of god , and religion , and the good of the nation would be more advanced , if the king went into scotland upon covenant terms , then if he should fall into the hands af the jrish rebells ; or offer this nation to the turk , or spanyard , or any other to come in and make a prey of it . j did judg it would be a foundation laid of great troubles and blood , if he were not received by that nation . and though i did not , and do not in the least own either the commission or instructions , or the way of management of that businesse , yet i confesse the agreement between the king and scots i desired , and deemed it my duty upon this ground , one clause of the covenant being , to seek the union and good of both nations ; and those who endeavour the contrary are declared by the covenant to be incendaries , malignants , and evill instruments , who not only divide the kingdoms one from another , but divide the king from his people . now they declaring him to be their king , according to my apprehension i thought it agreeable to my covenant , to pray and desire , as a private man , and no more , for an agreement between the king and them , upon those terms consistent with the safety of religion , and the terms of the covenant . and thus i have opened my heart to you . the favourable interpretation i humbly beg of you is this , that things might not be taken in the worst sense : non est reus , nisi mens sit rea : he is not guilty , unlesse the mind be guilty , i heard your lord-ship say so at guild-hall , as i remember . the lord knows in the uprightnesse of my heart , i have done , what i have done . it is a maxime in the law ( i have read it in divinity books ) ampliandi sunt favores , et in paenis benignior interpretatio facienda ; favours are to be amplifyed and enlarged by magistrates ; but in punishments , the most benigne and favourable interpretations must be made . now of my actions the harshest interpretations are made ; i have a charge laid against me , which i deem ( and as my councell tels me ) to be rather a flourish in law , then reality of matter .. i stood amazed when i heard the charge against me , i thought it had rather been against some other man then against me . as if i should send to the queen , piercy and jermin : herein i did rather venture my life upon a tryall , then to lie under all that obloquie , which that charge did lay upon me . therefore i again beseech you put a fair and candid interpretation upon what is proved against me . i remember a phrase , summum jus est summa injuria , to be over just , is to be injurious . be not over righteous , may refer to courts of judicatory . herein i acknowledge , that my not revealing what my accusers have done , this layeth me under the fault of a concealment , for which i lay my selfe at your feet . the next humble request i have to make , is this , to intreat your lordship and the court , that you would not hearken to any politick suggestions , that may be laid before you : i know under what disadvantage i lye , that am the first minister in england tryed for treason , in a businesse of this nature , and what a prejudice this is to me , to make an example upon . the first suggestion that i humble intreat you would not hearken to , is ; that it will not be for the honour and interest of the state , if i be not condemned ; truly it is for the honour of the state for you to do justice , if you have found , that i ever writ letter , or sent , or received letter , or lent money ; if in these regards you have found me within your acts , spare me not : but if i have been onely present at the reading of letters , and have been silent at what others have done ; therein i lay my selfe at your mercy , to shew me favour . it was a suggestion to pilate , if thou sparest that man , thou art no friend to caesar ; and so if you do not condemn me , you are no friends to those who commissionate you ; but be friends to your selves and families , and take heed that you bring not guiltlesse blood upon you . and here ( and so i shall have done ) in the close of all , i do acknowledge , that in many particulars , as touching not revealing ( i say not as to personall actings , nor do any prove it against me ) i do fall within your acts , as to the censure of a concealment ; and herein i humbly beg your mercy . and however j may be judged to be a man of a turbulent and unquiet spirit , ; yet those that know me in my relations , will not say so of me ; and my people , over whom god hath called me ( j think ) will say , j am a man who desireth to live quietly in the land : but however my spirit and principles are questioned , yet j resolve by the grace of god to lead for the future a quiet and peaceable life , in all godlinesse and honesty . j have but one word more to close all j have to say for my self ( for j have made no plea in law ; in those matters j am as a dumb man , and cannot open my mouth ) and 't is this , the charge and depositions lie before you , and j will but lay this before you also , that if so be my fact should deserve death , which j beleeve it doth not , and j hope you cannot finde me under your own acts as to treason ; yet if you do censure me rather upon a politicall interest , then from the merit of the fact , the scripture accounts not that justice , but murder . jehu put to death ahabs sons , and that by the command of god ; but he did it upon a politicall interest , to establish himself in his new gotten government : and when god reckons for this , he sayes , i will avenge the blood of jezreel upon the house of jehu . to do any thing upon a politicall interest , though the fact may deserve death , the scripture counts this murder , not justice . and i beseech you , let me suggest one thing to you , though j am a worm and no man , and deserve not to be regarded amongst the children of men ; yet what i have done and suffered , let it be a little thought on by you : and let mee urge that of abiathar the priest , he did an act that was not justifiable , and saith solomon , thou art worthy of death ; but i will not at this time put thee to death , because thou barest the ark of the lord god before david my father , and because thou hast been afflicted in all wherein my father was afflicted . i leave it to your own consciences to make application . many things else might be suggested against me , and all to exasperate and exulcerate your minds against me , to make you with lesse regret of conscience to passe a dolefull sentence upon me ; which j hope you cannot , and for the fear of the lord you dare not : but if you should , ( and so j have done ) j will say to you , as jeremiah did to the rulers of israel , as for me , behold i am in your hands , do with me as seemeth good and meet unto you ; but know yee for certain , that if ye put me to death , ye shall surely bring innocent blood upon your selves : but j will say as the apostle did , i hope better things of you , though i thus speak . and thus j commit my self , and my all , unto god and to your judgments and consciences . attourney-generall's present reply to m. loves defence . m. attourn . gen. my lord , you have heard him say much , and it had been much better for him if he had said less . my lord , when men go out of the way of their own calling , they very often erre ; and truly i may attribute much of m. loves confidence to his ignorance , my lord , to his ignorance of the law ; and when men meddle beyond their own bounds , they doe transgress . m. love hath made you a continued speech ; my lord , i do finde the old proverb commonly true , in multitude of words there wanteth not evill : and should i say nothing against m. love , my lord , he hath said enough against himself , in that that he hath now repeated even to his own condemnation in that which he acknowledgeth , my lord , ( i cannot say ingenuously , though himself hath said so ) to be rather a misprision of treason and a concealment . my lord , acts of concealment are not so long continued , they have not so long continuance : and my lord , you very well know ( for the satisfaction of the gentleman at present , and some else that hear me ) that he that heares a treason , ( for i do go now a little in his own way ) he that hears a treason , must not look back before he go to the magistrate and reveal it , and if he be at the plough , he must leave his plough ; if this gentleman were in his pulpit he must leave his preaching , he that knowes a treason , must go presently and reveal it ; there must be no repetition of treason , my lord , m. love : my lord , will be mistaken in that . but truly , my lord , i was very sorry , considering the condition m. love now stands in , to hear those expressions from him that he hath made to you in relation to the past and present authority ; my lord , i am not willing to repeat them , m. love must hear of it another time ; truly , my lord , here is little of ingenuity ( all men will believe ) in this gentleman , that hath now laid it for a principle to himself , and all that shall hear him ( and i think it not to be so christian , so ingenious ) not to confess any thing any time ; but that is ingenuity that what is proved , that he wil confess , and that is a high piece of ingenuity , that those things that are proved he wil ingenuously acknowledge ; i , my lord , i do not take that to be ingenuity neither in my law , nor i believe in his divinity wil it be . my lord , there hath been a great deal of care and pains taken by m. love to take in pieces the evidence , i shall not undertake now to joyn them together , but in convenient time i shall , i doubt not , for the satisfaction of the court , and their judgements , who i must say , have been threatned by the gentleman ; and my lord , i hope for the conviction of himself . my lord , he knowes there are shrewd pieces against him that he hath acknowledged ; but he would take them off one by one , but when they are put together , they will not be single evidence , nor single testimony , nor single facts , but a continued reiteration and repetition of treason , a continued and series of time . my lord you are pleased to observe that himself doth appear from . to . so that in . . . and . in all these years my lord , there hath been this constant repetition and transacting of treason . my lord , i learn from him , and 't is very true , — it is not good dallying with holy things , nor is it with states and common-wealths , it is very bad dallying with them , those that flutter there will burn their wings at last ; and it is not quirks of wit , nor strains of sense or non-sense , will , my lord , clear these things , it w●ll not do it , my lord. my lord , he hath desired you will not hearken to private examinations , my lord , i have said so too , and there hath more been offered to you ; but that which hath been publike and viva voce , all have been so . but surely , my lord , i could wish this gentleman , and all others of his profession , would meddle in their own sphere , and not to walk out of that to come and teach court● what they should do , to teach the magistrate what is his duty . my lord , i do hardly think it belongs to them ever in the pulpit to do those things : but to tell us we must not examine before-hand , and ask questions in private ; my lord , we cannot then be prepared for felons and treasons : and my lord , j say , this confidence is much from his ignorance ; for these things are very familiar , and must be continued to be done ; so that these things are not well broached by him , and i do think he will say at last he understands not himself ; and those ( i hope ) that hear , my lord , will say , i do not use it ; for , my lord , i must say , it must be otherwise in all well-governed common-wealths . my lord , he hath not denied , but acknowledged meetings at his house more than once , twice or thrice : and truly , i did expect from this gentleman that he would not have continued those fearfull imprecations of calling god to witness , that he did never write letter , nor send letter , nor lend money . i had thought he would not have gone upon these equivocations ; did he never move other men to write ? did he never move others to lend money ? it is not to say , this , and this i have not done ; but i had thought he would have cleared himself totally of any guilt that way , either in relation to receiving , or hearing letters read , or lending , or receiving money , or moving for money . my lord , to put it upon a particular case , this will not blinde the eyes of justice , but you will be able to see it : he is pleased to say , my lord , he will not lay it to the badness of the witnesses consciences , but to the badness of their memories ; my lord , i hope in conclusion their memories will appear to be right , and some bodies conscience else to be bad . and , my lord , for to hear this said by this gentleman that is a minister of the gospell , that it is a crime for these men to acknowledge their offences , this is strange ; i had thought the first step to repentance had been confession , and that it had been no offence for any man living that hath committed a fault , or that thought he had committed a fault , to acknowledge it . in my law and divinity i thought it so , and i have not learned otherwise ; and shall this gentleman take exceptions , because these gentlemen who have thought they have done amiss , have acknowledged their errors , and have craved mercy ? my lord , i must say thus , if any deserve mercy , it is those that doe acknowledge their offences , and crave mercy , and are sorry for them ; & not those that are obstinate , & bid defiance to justice , prove what you can , i wil confess nothing , that is not so consciencious nor christian a way : and for the witnesses , i do wonder that mr. love , of any man , should find fault with them ; i cannot say they have taken sweet counsell together , but i shrewdly suspect they have taken very bad counsel together ; these gentlemen are of his own choice , and of his own companions , and those that were conversant with him ; and if you please to observe , at every word will drake , me-thinks that is a word of familiarity ; but my lord , for these , they were his companions , and whether i might say more , his houshold friends or guests , but sure they were in his house very often , and were private with him , and in his chamber and study , and to cover all these actions , and these treasonable practises , and letters , and designs , here they must come to hear news , and this must cover it all ; they come for nothing but news , and our contributions must be for charitable uses , but you must not ask why or wherefore we lend money , but it is for charitable uses ; neither god nor man will be blinded in these things , and if these fig-leaves be sown together , it will neither cover nakedness nor treason . my lord , m. love hath said , ( and in that given judgement against himself ) that either to treat or advise with the king of scots in scotland , he detests them both : my lord , if he be guilty of both , then i hope , he doth detest and renounce himself , and then i think , he hath laid your judgement somewhat ; his own having past first , yours will easily follow . my lord , he confesses , that for this act of the . of august , . he was ignorant of it , and of the danger of it . my lord , he very well knowes that ignorance is no excuse , the act is a publike act , and hath been long printed , now ten moneths since , himself saith : and yet me-thinks i cannot reconcile that , ( that he that goes to make others differ ) that he knew not of this act , and yet sterks the scotch agent was banish'd upon this act , and there was a contribution for him for his going away ; the same act that doth the one doth the other . my lord , he hath been pleased to cite a saying of cardinall farnesus , that if he knew any part of him infected with lutheranism , he would cut it off , and throw it into the fire ; and so can he speak truly of himself , he would do if he knew any thing of malignancy by himself . my lord , the question between him , and us is , what is malignancy , i doubt we differ in that , i doubt his sense of malignancy ; i am sure by some words i shrewdly ghess at , that i count that malignitie , and i hope all this court , and all that hear me count that malignity , that i doubt his judgement leads him not to it , so i doubt we differ upon that . my lord , he hath said he was never an incendiary , or evill instrument : i wish there were not cause for you to think otherwise : but surely the gentleman hath made large imprecations , and hath spoken much for himself ; but ( i believe ) he knowes there is so much justice here , that he expects not to bee believed in what he sayes . if it were enough to accuse , who should be innocent ? and if it were enough to deny , who should be guilty ? he doth not expect to be believed for his word certainly ; for now he knowes he stands in another capacity , and as things are alledged and proved on both sides , so he is to be believed and no otherwise . my lord , he hath been pleased to reflect upon my self in many particulars , yea and the court knowes in what a capacity i stand here , as a servant to the state to doe my duty faithfully , and j must doe it , and yet i must say , it doth not become me to prompt witnesses ; that word , my lord , was not well spoken . he is pleased to say in the commendation of himself , that he hath a place in london where he hath a very good congregation , and a very good competency of maintenance , and j heartily wish he had thought so really , and had kept himself singly to that ; j do not think he will say that in the duty of his place , as a minister of the word , to preach , to instruct , to exhort , rebuke , reprove his people , or any under his charge , that ever the state did interpose or meddle with him , neither the parliament nor the common-wealth ; then for gods love , my lord , why should this man interpose or meddle with the state ? had you not enough to doe in your own calling ? had you not charge enough lying upon you , but must you be going abroad , and put your sickle into another mans harvest ? i will say , the state did never trouble the gentleman in his duty , he did go on with as much peace and quietness as himself could desire , we interrupted not him , let him reflect upon himself , whether others have dealt so kindely with him ; when had he that liberty that now he hath had ? you may be pleased to observe , himself saies twelve years ago he could not in three years in london get an admission to be a lecturer , and when he spoke in the congregation-house at oxford , he was expulsed there ; he hath had no such measure here : doth kindness provoke him to these things ? those that sin against kindness are the highest transgressors . what provocation hath this gentleman had in his ministery , that he could not follow that , and have let the parliament and state alone ? doth he not receive breath here to live , and his livelihood to sustain himself and his relations ? why should you interpose to disquiet your self and the common-wealth when they did not provoke you ? and let all judge whether this should not convince you ; and let me say thus much , that you have dealt foolishly , and have gone beyond your bounds , and have not kept within your limits in what you have done in these things that you have acknowledged . my lord , i speak this , that those may hear now that may not hear the other ; for that which m. love hath said , we must have some time to recollect , and to speak in the vindication of the proceedings of the state against this gentleman , which though i think it needs not much , in respect of the court that hath heard him say so much and confess so much as he hath done , yet for the lenitie of the state , that hath moved them to take care of their own preservation : and i would not do it but that he hath stood upon all terms of defiance with justice and majesty , and you have heard from a fellow minister what he did the last day , and the principles he urgeth this day , which let me repeat again , there will be no living in society , if these things be let alone . my lord , it is much insinuated by him , that his blood will be upon you and the court , j would he had thought upon blood before these things had been so transacted by himself , i am afraid ( between god and his own conscience be it , and those that have had correspondency with him ) that much of this blood that hath been spilt in scotland , hath been much by their means ; you hear him say , that what was desired by them ( and in order to what it was ) was , that the king of scots might joyn with the scottish nation , and not go to ireland , that was his conscience : i do not know , his conscience led him to meddle with those things , to meddle with state-affairs . but my lord , if it be so , and this hath been brought on by them , that one hath incouraged the king to joyn with the scots , and the other hath incouraged the scots to joyn with the king by hopes of parties here , which he himself acknowledgeth now , was undertook in the name of a presbyterian party , though i think and do believe it , for very many honest presbyterians , that they would spit in his face if he should say it of them ; but i say these doings hath occasioned the shedding of much blood , and a great deal of variance between the two nations , and the lord knowes when it will end . but my lord , as he concluded for himself , you will be pleased , my lord , to give me leave ( though not in that way of conjuration as he hath done ) to say for the state , i shall not prevent your judgements ; but it is better that one man , than a state should perish . and if this man be guilty of the treasons proved against him , i believe himself will judge , he had better perish and suffer death , than the state should perish . all these actings of his have been underminings of the state clean through , carried on very closely and covertly in disguises , and not discovered ; but he that dances in a net will be catch't trapping at last . my lord , before you give your judgment , you wil consider that justice to the common-wealth — so my lord , i have added what my bad memory ( j hope not bad conscience ) hath repeated to me , as might give some answer to what he hath said : but since he hath been pleased to take such pains to run through all and every one of the evidence so exactly , and hath had three dayes given him for it : my lord , i shall ask but one for my self , and for those that are the councell of the common-wealth . my lord , this is all i shall say at present to you , and shall say no more till next meeting . judge keeble the lord president speaks after the attourney-generall : the very beginning of his speech was not heard , he beginning very softly . l. pres . but again in this point , for the presbyterian government , if it be rectified , doubtless it tends to the peace of this nation , and all places , but not with a scotch limitation , i deny that ; nor limited by a scotch covenant . the next thing is this , because you often fall upon distinctions of the law , and that you are ignorant of the law ; the more to blame you , that profess the learning of the law of god ; for there is no law in england , but is as really and truly the law of god as any scripture-phrase that is by consequence from the very texts of scripture ; for there are very many consequences reasoned out of the texts of scripture ; so is the law of england the very consequence of the very decalogue it self , and whatsoever is not consonant to scripture in the law of england , is not the law of england , the very books and learning of the law ; whatsoever is not consonant to the law of god in scripture , or to right reason which is maintained by scripture ; whatsoever is in england , be it acts of parliament , customes , or any judiciall acts of the court , it is not the law of england , but the errour of the party which did pronounce it , and you or any man else at bar may so plead it ; and therefore to profess you are knowing in the laws of god , and yet to be ignorant of the lawes of england , when yet the lawes of england be so purely the lawes of god , as no law in the world more practicall at this day , for you to be ignorant of them , it is not to your commendation , nor to any of your profession . then sir , for your going on in these wayes . the court with patience hath heard you ( i think ) two hours , or thereabouts , and you have done nothing but anticipated the court ; what ? do you think they have not understandings , and judgements , and consciences ? they would have done it , they would have examined these witnesses precisely , and would have compared them ; but you have taken up all this time by way of anticipation ; and in a rhethoricall way to do it ! let me tell you , that orators among the heathen have been the greatest incendiaries , and those orators in christendome that do not set their judgements upon right ends , they are the most unworthy men in christendome ; for there is no heresies , murders , traiterous and treasonable practises and attemptings , and all the highest wickednesses that ever were committed in christendome whatsoever , or in this nation in particular , but they have had some of that profession that have called themselves ministers of jesus christ , as the jesuits of jesus , and the priests of those ; and all these things and high actings have still had some tincture of your coat in them : therefore it is not your office can excuse you ; your office is sacred , as other christian offices are , and you are no more divines by your office ; but you are to remember , and you must know , that christian justice that you teach in the pulpit , to act it in the court is of a higher nature than preaching is : and therefore in this , that you should advance your profession beyond the judicatories of this land , know , that judgement and justice is the highest religion in the world both in christendome and out of it : and this sir , wee would have you know , that lawyers doctrine tends to this , and i hope hereafter you will be more obedient and better vers'd to know these grounds of the laws of england , by which now you are called here . i shall say no more , but take advice with the court about you . the court adjourns , and m. love is commanded away . the fourth dayes proceeding june . . mr. hall the first councell for the common-wealth . mr. hall. my lord , the prisoner at the bar , mr. love , stands impeach'd before your lordship of high treason , which impeachment hath been read before your lordship and the court. my lord , by that he stands charged with high treason , with severall offences of high treason ; that he in the years , , , and , with william drake , henery jermin , henry piercy , john gibbons , edward massey , sylas titus , and others his accomplices , did traiterously , wickedly , and maliciously confederate , plot , and endeavour to stir up a new and bloody war in this nation , and to subvert the government now established , without a king and house of lords . my lord , that in the same years , since the death of the late king , he did with other his accomplices , endeavour to promote charls stewart to be king of england , contrary to an act of parliament , before that time made , in this nation . my lord , that in the same years , he and his accomplices did traiterously and maliciously aid and assist the nation of scotland , to the end that they might invade this common-wealth ; and hath adhered to the forces raised by the enemies of this common-wealth . my lord , that in the same time , between the month of march , and the first of june , this present month , he hath troiterously and maliciously held and maintained correspondency , and intelligence by letters , messages , instructions and otherwise , with the enemies of this common-wealth ; and to the prejudice of this nation ; and in particular with charls stewart , and the late queen his mother , and with jermin , and piercy , and other persons of councel abiding with charls steward . my lord , that he hath likewise held correspondency and intelligence with the scottish nation , prejudiciall to this common-wealth , and to the end they might invade and bring a bloody warr upon this nation . my lord , these treasons and traiterous and wicked practices of the prisoner at the bar , were and are to the apparent hazard of the publick peace of this common-wealth , and free-state , and the parliament and people of england ; and in contempt and violation of the lawes of the land , and contrary to severall acts of parliament , in such cases made and provided . my lord , there hath been severall witnesses , and proofs of these particular charges against the prisoner . and , my lord , i do conceive that there hath been such proof made , that in your lordships judgment , he will appear to be guilty of all these particular actings ; but , my lord , i will not enter upon the proof , only make a summary relation of the beginning and continuance of this plot and designe . my lord , this plot did begin very suddenly after it pleased god to take away the chief enemy of this nation . the king died in january , and this plot began in february , the very next month following : and in the same month , my lord , the scots nation did proclaim charls stewart king of scotland ; and they did not stop there , but proclaimed him likewise king of england ; and then , my lord , this plot began here ; for in the month of february , the next month after the king dyed , the meeting was at the swan at dow-gate , where were severall of the correspondents at that time ; as drake , huntington , titus , and others , and the end of that meeting was to contrive a way that they might agree the king and the scotish nation ; that was the end of their meeting at that time . my lord , within a few dayes after that , they met again all these severall persons , at the white-hart in bread-street , and to the same purpose ; and at length it was resolved to make their addresses to the queen , and to piercy , and jermin ( first it was the king himself ) for a complyance between the king and the scots ; letters were sent accordingly , and severall meetings , and severall returns of messages were had of them : my lord , at length it was resolved , that they should send messengers to the king at jersey , and agreed upon one titus ; and they raised money and gave it to titus to undertake the journey . my lord , titus accordingly went in the month of may , one thousand six hundred forty nine , and returned in august following . after he had done his negotiation there , he returned to calice ; but being afraid that this wicked plot was discovered , by reason of letters that were intercepted , he durst not come into england ; but sent letters to desire some correspondents might be sent to calice . my lord , all this time i do not finde that the proof discovers the prisoner at the bar to be any actor , or present at any meeting hitherto : but when these letters came from titus , then the letters were brought to mr. loves house ; which is the first time i finde him by proof to be present . the letters were read in his house , and in his studie , as some of the witnesses say , that there were present : and it was then agreed , my lord , that alford should go to calice to titus . my lord , accordingly he went , and there titus did communicate unto him the affairs that pass'd at jersey : within four or five dayes after , alford returns again , and where should the meeting be but at mr. loves house again ? where mr. love and divers of the accomplices were in his house , a letter from the king was read ; the dyary , the narrative from titus likewise was read there ; and there was the consultation wat should be done , and what further course they should take to joyn the king and the scots together . my lord , afterward they did agree that there should be some sent to treat with the king at breda ; the instructions were drawn in mr. loves house , ( i think one witnesse sayes so ) and mr. love present ; money was raised , and mr. love himself did speak to one of the witnesses to raise money , which was far : far accordingly did bring in five pounds , and laid it down upon mr. loves table , mr. love being present then in the room . my lord , i shall not trouble you with the relation of more particulars ; but my lord , i conceive , that mr. love , doth upon these proofs stand guiltie of endeavouring to promote the king to be king of england : for , my lord , what should be the end of uniting the king and the scots together , after that the scots had proclaimed charls stewart king of england , but that they might come in a warlike manner to invade this nation , and to set up his authority as king among us ▪ my lord , i conceive ( i shall submit to your lordships judgment ) that he is guilty of intelligence from a profess'd enemy . the intelligence is ( my lord ) that divers letters were sent , and these letters were read in his presence , as himself doth confesse he was at the reading of divers letters , and yet did not consent to them ; and thereupon makes it as it were but misprision of treason . my lord , i conceive that this is apparently treason : for if letters were sent to one person , and did occasionally come into another mans hand , and he conceale them , being not sent to him , there peradventure it is but misprision of treason . but when there are sent to these particular persons letters from the king and scots , and divers persons in hostility against the commonwealth of england , and received by the confederates in master loves house , and there were read and debated , though they did not agree to some particulars , yet they are actors : they are — in the very intelligence it selfe ; and did likewise return severall letters . my lord , this intelligence was with the scotish nation , which truly , my lord , i do conceive hardly an english man , that had the blood of an english man running in his veins , would joyn in confederacie with that nation , of all the nations of the world , against this common-wealth : a nation that hath been known ( and i am sure , the prisoner at the bar is well read in the histories and stories of this nation ) to have been a constant enemie to this nation in all ages through the memory of all histories ; and , my lord , of late , not three yeers since , came and invaded this nation with a puissant army , which it pleased god to deliver us from : and this the prisoner could not be ignorant of , that we had lately a fight with them at dunbar , that hostility could not be unknowne unto the prisoner at the bar neither : and yet for all that , to confederate with a nation , that were such constant enemies to us . my lord , i could not conceive it had been in the heart of an english man , much lesse in a minister and preacher of the gospel among us . my lord , there are some particular charges upon him more then upon any of the rest ; after drake fled away , being doubtfull that his secret traiterous plot would be discovered , mr. love supplied his room : all the meetings , and confederacies , and letters , and agitations in this businesse were constantly at mr. loves house , himselfe being present . and , my lord , mony as i said before , by mr. love himself desired to be raised , for the furthering of this design , and severall summs of mony were raised . i shall trouble your lord-ship with no further relation , but leave it to the proof that was made before your lordship and the court. sir thomas witherington , the second councell for the common-wealth . sir th. wither . my lord , mr. loves defence which he made for himself , as he did it for his life , so he took a great deal of pains in it , and was very accurate in the defence he made , especially in the witnesses . my lord , i shall not take upon me ( for it is not my charge at this time ) to reply unto , the whole defence that mr. love made . my lord , that i shall say , shall be in two particulars , for mr. love divided that which he said into four parts ; the first concerning the charge ; the second concerning the witnesses and testimony ; and . concerning himself ; and . concerning some proposalls to the court. my lord , i shall onely meddle with that which is concerning the witnesses ; and . to some part of that he said concerning himself ; i shall only reply as to these two , and the rest i shall leave to mr. atturny generall , that better knows what is for the advantage of the common-wealth . my lord , i shall begin concerning the witnesses to clear them ( for now we are in our reply for the common-wealth . ) mr. love , who did professe a very great deal of ignorance in the laws of the land yet he did insinuate something that implied some knowledge of them , in that , my lord , he took some exceptions to the witnesses ; my lord , i take it that these exceptions were : . that the witnesses were not probi testes & legales , and . that they were participes criminis , and that indeed is included in the other . my lord , first i shall speak to this , that the witnesses produced against him , are legales testes : they are competent witnesses , and sufficient witnesses , without exception against them . i shall first speak to that they are testis legales , for mr. love did object , that they themselves confess'd themselves to be guilty of the same crimes , and so their confession is upon the matter , a conviction , and so they are convicted of the crimes in which they are witnesses against him ; and so are not competent witnesses . my lord , i shall clear this ; under favour , i take it they are very clear and good witnesses , notwithstanding the exceptions . and , my lord , this i take to be a very plain case , the case which is in our common law ; the case is — which proves it fully . for if a man be accused of high-treason , indicted of high treason , and will confesse the indictment , and become an approver , yet he may be a witnesse against all those parties guilty of the same treasons with himselfe , he is particeps criminis with them , and they with him ; and yet this man thus becoming an approver , will at common law be a witnesse , and a legal and good witnesse against them . my lord , i shall a little open that , because it clears the case . my lord , an approver can only approve it is true ; that is when a man is indicted of high treason and other his accomplices with him ; and he upon the indictment sayes it is true , and then desires he may have some thing assigned to him , and then hee accuses such and such persons of the same crimes ; in this case this man after he hath confest the indictment , and takes his corporall oath to reveall all treasons he knowes in the indictment , ( for he can accuse no further ) after this done he shall be a witnesse , he is a witnesse against those with whom he is particeps criminis . nay , my lord , it is of merit and justice that he shall have this reward , he shall be pardoned his life ▪ now that i prove to you , because that shews the reason ; that even the man , after indictment and confession , yet being an approver , shall be an accuser of his brethren , those that were participes criminis with him , and a good witness ; and the reason of that goes to this case in hand . for although these men had a hand in the same plot and design with him , and have confest , and did confess it upon evidence , that they were there present , and did many things ; yet i take it they are clear , competent , and good witnesse ; and that is no objection against them , that they are participes criminis . my lord , if the law were otherwise , it were impossible to prove many offences ; for many offences cannot be proved , but by some men that had a hand in them . jn an ordinary case an action of trespass and false imprisonment , if three men are guilty of it , it is an usuall thing in courts of justice to admit one of them a witnesse ; true , they are not parties in the action , and so may be witnesses ; for these things may be so secretly done otherwise , that their treasons could never be revealed to recover against the prisoner . there is a case , i think in all our knowledge , it is the case of the earle of castle-haven , he was accused of a very grievous fact , the witnesses which came against him , were one or two footmen , that were participes criminis in the very same fact , and these men by the opinion of the judges were competent witnesses . my lord , he was arraigned , indicted , and convicted , and suffered death : nay , it is very true , that one of these persons was afterwards hanged for the same offence : so that i think , under favour , as to that , i take it , that they are cleer and good witnesses , notwithstanding that objection . the next objection is , that they were not probi testes : truly for that , my lord , i must appeal to your judgment in it , whether these men be not probi testes , & houestes too ; for in case of an approver , as i mentioned before , that man that accuses his brethren upon the same treason , it is said , that of merit and justice , the king ought to grant him his pardon : for they that discover the traitors against the commonwealth , these certainly are probi testes , and good common-wealths men : and so i take it , that this is no objection against them in that , but as before they were legales testes , so they are probi testes . my lord , i mention these things , to shew that the witnesses for the commonwealth are good and competent in this case . the next objection touching these witnesses , is , that though they be admitted for good witnesse ; yet there is not to any one fact two witnesses : there is not any one of the most criminall parts of the charge proved by two witnesses : and so as before they were incompetent in regard of the quality and participancy of their crimes , so now he would make them incompetent for want of number . my lord , i shall first agree to the ground of this objection ; for truly , my lord , i take it , that it is by the common and ancient law of england , that in cases of treason there must be two witnesses ; and it is by a law more ancient then that , that is , by the law of god. but my lord , it is true , the law of this land is explained by severall statutes ; the statute of the first yeer of edward the sixth , and the fifth yeer , and the second yeer of philip and mary ; my lord , i take it , upon all these statutes , the one statute sayes , to accuse another , there must be two witnesses ; i take it , the accuser and witness are all one ; that is , the same that in one statute is called a witnesse , in another is called an accuser . but there must be two , that is the objection ▪ but then give mee leave to consider this case , and to consider how those two witnesses shall be . my lord , i say under favour , that in a case that consists of a complicated fact ; that is , the reiteration of many actions , my lord , i conceive none of these lawes are to be intended , that for every of the particular facts there should be two witnesses : that cannot be the intention of any of these lawes , that in every particular fact , that is to say , whether mr. love was present at the reading of the letters , if you have one witnesse to that , another for the writing of them , another to the sending of them ; though these three witnesses speak to severall parts of the businesse , yet they are a concurrent testimony , for all agree to the fact . i well remember , my lord , a case in the star-chamber , against b. of leicestershire , i think there was an information against him for bribery and extorting of fees : the matter came in the conclusion , that one man proved a bribe , and another man proved a bribe ; one proved a bribe of forty pounds , and another a bribe of forty pounds : but there were severall witnesses to severall bribes . the question now was , whether he took bribes or no ? and these tending to the same generall charge , it was the opinion of all the judges , that he did extort and take bribes . the one witnesse spake to one bribe , and another to another ; and in that case , as two witnesses , made good a charge against an offender , yet in that case it was taken , that where witnesses , though they speak not in every particular , yet all tending to the same generall charge of bribery , these were taken for plurall witnesses , and that was a good conviction . that was the opinion of the judges then . i mention this case onely for an instance to expresse my self in this : for mr. love cannot expect , that to every particular thing laid to his charge two witnesses should be produc'd . but my lord , when one witnesse proves , this thing he hath done , this letter hath he written ; and another that another thing he hath done , which all tend to the treason ; now these are more witnesses , and two or three witnesses of the same thing , though not to the same individuall thing it is — . so that upon the matter they are concurrent witnesses in this complicated fact , though not concurrent in this or that circumstance ; for that is impossible almost in any action to be done . but then mr. love did further inlarge this objection ; which was out of a saying he had , that in case of treason , probationes opportent esse luce clariores : the proof must be as cleer as the sun. truly , my lord , it is very hard , that works of darknesse should need so much light for discovery , and that so cleer a proof should be necessary when the things are done in darkness and secrecie . my lord , i think , under favour , though in this particular we have our witness , as i do take it , to speak very plainly and cleerly ; for it is their owne faults if they doe not , for they were present at the meetings , at the consultations and debates . but yet i do observe , that in this case things were carryed on in a very secret manner ; for i do observe first , at these meetings all of them were done under a disguise , every thing acted in this businesse . i observe it upon evidence , first , that the very meetings themselves , they go under the title of prayer and fasting ; for so huntington told you , he was spoke to go to prayer at mr. love's house . the contributions made for raising of money , for sending of messages and dispatches , was under the disguise of charitable uses ; so that here was darknesse all along . and then for the letters , there was no names subscribed to them , all were done without names , only the letter l. was upon one . and the place truly , i must say , that was obscure too ; for what man would have thought , that the place of meeting should have been mr. love's house , a man that hath been so much for , and shewed so great an affection to the parliament , as he said himself in substance ? a man would sooner have thought to have found this treason in any cellar in london , then in mr. love's house . for the instructions , for the directions and dispatches , some were sent in table-books , written in sack in a table-book . but , my lord , i am afraid in the conclusion , the letters will be written in blood . but , my lord , this i do observe , that through these difficulties , though we past through our evidence , yet your lordship heard how plain the proof was in most particulars . my lord , i shall say no more as to these witnesses , because the other part of answering the witnesses belongs to the atturney generall ; for master love went over all the particular witnesses . my lord ; i shall only say one thing , and that is this , concerning mr. love himself ; and it is only concerning this point . my lord , mr. love himselfe did say , he would be ingenuous so far as he took himselfe to be guilty . but , my lord , i know your lordship and the court observes , that that ingenuity did follow the proof that was for the common-wealth . my lord , he confesses he was present at them , he was silent after all these meetings and debates , i mean the meetings after they began at his own house ; for i speak not of them that were at dow-gate , for there is no proof that he was there . my lord , this he confesses , and this he sayes is misprision of treason . truly , my lord , i must be bold to differ from him in that particular ; i take it that that he confesses is high treason . i shall speak a little to misprision of treason , and so conclude . my lord , misprision of treason is when a man hath notice of a thing that is treason , and hee conceals it ; now , my lord , under favour , the concealment must not be long , it must not sleep long with him . my lord , i remember an axiome an author hath in our law , and that is bracton ; he hath a discourse of misprision of treason , he hath it in latine — sayes hee , he that knows a treason , he must not stay in one place a day and a night , but he must go on , he must go toward the magistrate . nay ( sayes he ) though he have most urgent businesse yet he must set it aside and go on , and must not stay in any place till he hath revealed it . nay he sayes further , he ought not to look back till he hath given information to the magistrate ; the man that doth not after this manner forth-with reveal it , this only is misprision of treason . but considering this case of mr. loves , now confessing the fact , he takes it to be misprision of treason , but i take it to be treason it selfe . my lord , i shall observe what mr. love did ; he was at these meetings ; these meetings were continued for divers dayes , and months . my lord , was there any discovery made by mr. love ? was there any revelation of his to any magistrate ? did he tell it to any man ? nay , did he confesse it upon his examination , when examined ? nay , did he not deny it when he came to the bar before your lord-ship ? can this bee said to be misprision of treason , that a man should hold so long in treason and not reveal it ? my lord , as every treason includes a misprision of treason in it ; so i conclude , that misprision of treason may grow up to treason it selfe . now when a man shall so long sleep upon it , and be violent in it , and not reveal it , i take this misprision of treason growes up into treason it self . my lord , i shall say no more of that , but i shall conclude , because the other part lies upon mr. atturney generall , who is better able to do it ; onely one thing i shall take notice of to your lordship , and i am troubled at it ; and that is , that as he saith , that he that hath been so much for the parliament , with whom he hath gone along , and took sweet counsell together , and hath been active for , and passive with through all the passages of the late warres , that he should suffer from them , this he saies , stuck very much upon him . but , my lord , for him that hath been so much for the parliament , so familiar with their proceedings , that hath been so active for them , and hath suffered so much for them ; my lord , for him to kick the heel against the parliament , for him after all this , now even in the infancy of this commonwealth , that this child should be destroyed , and by one with whom we have took sweet counsell together . and by one i may say this , that though he had no hand in making this common-wealth , yet i dare say he had in the preparations to it ; for himself all along hath gone with the parliament ; so that my lord , i take this to be an objection against him . but , my lord , i shall say no more in it , but refer the other part to m. atturney-generall . m. atturney-generall the third councell for the common-wealth . at. gen. my lord , i am sorry m. love hath given the occasion of this meeting , and of my speaking at present , i could much rather have wished to have been silent ; but now i am drawn hither , i am forced to it . m. love , my lord , in the beginning of his triall did desire god so to assist him , that he might go through it with gravity , meekness and wisdom , as became a minister of the gospell : i wish that god had heard his prayers , that he had so gone through it ; what he hath done , the court hath observed . my lord , in that part i have to do , i do heartily desire i might doe it with faithfulness to you , and the duty of the place i ought to discharge , and to the court. my lord , the work that this day lies upon me is , to reply somewhat to what was said by m. love in his own defence , and to make a faithful repetition to the court , and to doe the witnesses and the prisoner right ; to repeat that , and that onely that hath been said : and in that , that j may do no wrong to mislead the court , and offer nothing to the prejudice of the witnesses , nor to the prisoner . and truly , my lord , i shall not ( in his own words ) have any tortured collections , nor any inferences , nor strains of wit ; he hath showed his oratory in his defence . my lord , i shall show the simplicity of law in the reply . my lord , the charge hath been repeated to you , and for that insisted upon by m. love for the witnesses and testimony you have had answer ; i shall not trouble you , there hath been pains taken in it , my lord , i think all men were satisfied that it was clear enough ; yet to make it more clear . m. love , my lord , insisted upon one thing more , and that is upon point of time , and the point of the jurisdiction of the court , which ( by your favour ) i shall first begin with . he stands charged he sayes , for crimes done in . . . and . and those crimes he sayes , were before this court was , or had a being , and so had not power to take cognizance of them . that my lord , j shall endeavour to clear to you , and i think in much cleerness , cleerer than the light , as he will have his evidence . he stands charged ( i say ) positively , my lord , with no crime before a law was emitted , that did give an inhibition and was publish'd and known . he stands charged with no crime before the law was publish'd , that did declare what the crime was , and gave notice to beware . my lord , that that was first , was the law that was made the thirtieth of january , . that doth declare , ( and upon that law i shall fetch the foundation and rise of this treason ) that whoever shall proclaim , declare , publish , or any way promote ch. stewart , or any other person to be king , or chief magistrate of england , or ireland , without consent in parliament , shall be adjudged a traytor , and shall suffer pains of death as a traytor : here was this law publish'd , and notice given what every man should trust to , and i may say my lord , obedience expected : against this law hath m. love transgressed , and under favour , in a very high measure ; so that , my lord , i charge him upon this law , and since this law was made , and to this law there is no limitation of time for men to be questioned for it : and for this law , it is in express terms given in commission to this court to take cognizance of it ; so that i think , this is a little clear to him . my lord , the next is a law published in july , ▪ that is entituled , an act declaring what offences shall be treason ; that i think he is not ignorant of , though he pretended to be ignorant of another . my lord , that law likewise , though it was before this court was erected , yet this court hath by express words of the commission power to take cognizance of it ; and this court in these things is not like other judicatories , that when offences are committed , the state takes care to appoint courts and judges to judge those offences ; let it be no offence to m. love if this court were erected especially to try him , but the law was not made especially to punish him ; for the law was made before , and the offence committed before , and so i think , in all england the offences are committed before the judges go their circuits and have their commissions . my lord , the next is the law that constitutes this court , and sayes in what particulars this court hath power to take notice of offences , besides those mentioned before , and the last concerning the scots ; that was but lately which mr. love sayes he was ignorant of ; but he was not ignorant to doe somewhat against it . my lord , these are for the lawes that mr. love is impeach't upon . the next thing that i have to doe is , ( and in that i humbly beg your favour , that as i am now to doe justice ( if i may so say ) to the court , and to bee faithfull to my trust and the duty imposed upon mee ) to repeat the evidence right unto you ; and in that , as the gentleman the prisoner at the barre , hath had that favour from you to have a notary by him to take all that was said of all parties ; so , my lord , by your favour , wee have had some here to help our memories ; with whom i have conferred , and by the help of their notes and our memories , my lord , wee thinke wee have faithfully transcribed that which was said by the witnesses . and , my lord , i humbly crave favour , as not now being a private examination , to be read , but a publike testimony in the presence of mr. love himself , and the court ; i hope it is not private now , but i may use notes to do him right , and may read those things that they testified upon their oath here . in the first place , my lord , i shall according to my best judgement do him no wrong : for the first , i shall acknowledge it was but a heare-say , and that from drake , of letters sent from scotland to the presbyterian party in england , to let them know what had been done of proclaming the king there , and that care should bee taken for their interest . this i doe acknowledge was but a heare-say ; but that which followed not long after that time , my lord , was positive , and there ( my lord ) i shall begin the rise of this ; and thus as hath been observed by my fellowes that are counsell here , though there was not acting , nor presence , nor knowing , yet ( my lord ) under a second , it will appeare hee was consenting and approving , and so guilty of the first fact : my lord , there was a meeting at dowgate , i suppose you remember it full well , it hath been severall times repeated to you by severall persons , and titus the party now beyond the seas , and drake , and other traytors fled , were prime sticklers for this , and moved others to come in and to bee there present , and heare what was the designe . as j did crave your lordships favour , so i shall , that i may not ( as hee sayes ) trust to fickle nor roveing memory , that i may bee faithfull to read to you that i have taken , and what was said by them ; i suppose mr. love hath by him one that can controle me if i doe not right . i begin with this meeting at dowgate , and continued at the white-hart in breadstreet , alford gave you this evidence , that one morning hee was wished by drake to goe to the swan at dowgate ; when hee came there , there was one titus who gave relation of the good disposition of the prince , and how inclineable hee was to take the covenant , and to cast off the cavaliering party , and those about him , if there were opportunity found , how to make him know there was a considerable partie in england that would sticke close to the ends of the covenant ; and upon that wee that were there did thinke wee were bound in duty , in relation to the covenant , to press the prince to take it , and to prosecute the ends of it . and for that titus said , if wee would appoint another meeting , hee would draw up something in way of application of the presbyterian party to that purpose . wee afterwards met at the beare in breadstreet , and there hee drew fourth something hee had framed to that purpose , and read it , and it was agreed upon to bee sent over to the prince , the substance of it was to presse the prince to apply himselfe to take the covenant , and to prosecute the ends of it , and to cast off all the cavaliers and that party about him , which had brought so much mischiefe to his father , and would doe likewise to him : and this ( i believe ) was sent over , for titus undertooke to send it over . wee asked him how the prince could bee made to believe that this coming from so inconsiderable a party as wee were , should come under the notion of the presbyterian party of england ; hee said hee would undertake it by meanes of my lord piercie . and my lord , i think you doe remember there was one mason servant of piercy , that was sent over hither , so testified by some , to reconcile the royall and presbyterian party . this mason ( my lord ) was piercies servant , so testified here by divers , my lord , here is now the foundation , drake is he that moves alford ; and titus i may suppose the mover of drake , and both of them fled at traytors . my lord , if they were traitours , and this is treason ; then whoever had a hand in carrying on this design , himselfe is a traitor , and his action is treason . my lord , this is the testimony of alford . my lord , there is another witnesse , and that is , lieut . colonel bains , who i think was present only at this meeting , and had enough of it , and did leave it ; and yet was present at this , and gave in evidence of what was there proposed . i think he was present at no other meeting , he was satisfied this was too much ; his testimony , as i take it , was this , for i shall read it , that i may do no wrong to no party : bains said , it was also proposed by titus , that something should be done in order , to restoring the presbyterian interest , by application to the prince , and to assure him that he had a considerable party in england , which look'd upon it as a duty , and lying upon all of them by the covenant . and that it was necessary some what should be done by some parliament men , ministers and citizens , that were leading active men , that he might have an assurance , that somewhat would be done for him : and somewhat to the queen , jermin and piercy , whom , he said , were their friends . this , my lord , was that which titus said at this meeting ; and testifyed by bains . my lord , there is another , colonell barton , who was produced as an evidence . my lord , i think that he spoke not much more then to this , and gave off here . my lord , his testimony was this ; for i do conceive , under favour , we have taken the very precise words spoken by them : and , my lord , so as spoken and taken , so written , and so , my lord , read to you : barton , my lord , said , that drake would have him to be a messenger , and to that purpose there were severall meetings at the swan and white-hart . this was what barton testified . my lord , then there was major huntington , which was at this meeting , and one more at mr. loves house , which he full well remembers . my lord , huntington sayes this , that about march . ( in january was the law published ) alford told him , that titus was in town , and that he was newly come from beyond the seas from their friends , massy , bunce , graves and others , and that titus was to meet the next day at dow-gate , where he fell into high praises of the prince , and told them that though he was taking unhandsome courses , yet they had great hopes his inclinations were otherwise . titus said further , he feared his inclining to the irish , unlesse something should be gotten from his friends here to divert him ; that you remember was mr. loves charity too , as you will hear anon . titus purposed to get letters from persons of honour , to perswade him to a good opinion of the scots , to take the covenant , and to joyn with them . afterward they met at the white hart in bread-street , where titus declared that he should gain these letters , and hoped to set something a foot to the same effect ; and there said , they were confident they could see no way under heaven for him else , but by taking the covenant , and engaging the scots against england ; to which purpose he drew forth a paper , purporting that they were bound in honesty , conscience and loyalty , to maintain and help him to his just rights , if he would go along and joyn with the covenanting party in england and scotland . my lord , this is that now that hath past in proof by evidence concerning this first meeting at the swan at dowgate , which i do humbly conceive was the rise and foundation of what followes afterward . and this , my lord , if true , i suppose no man will say , but that was treason that was transacted there . i do not say , my lord , that mr. love was present at it , nor as yet , can i say , knowing of it , but what followes after , my lord , will bring him in danger . my lord , here , you have heard , was this meeting , and what was propounded to be done here , and how active titus was , and that he was to go ( you have heard by the testimony ) to piercy ; and it is not doubted by any but he did go thither ; it is not doubted by any but he was sent and did go thither . to that purpose i shall now read you two witnesses more , which i have caused to be transcribed too , in the words as spoken by them , as i do conceive , that is adams and far ; that there was money agreed upon , to send titus to piercy ; that there was money collected , and that they themselves did contribute . adams he expresseth it thus : that upon a meeting , the place and time i remember not ; where i think were present drake , titus , alford , and my selfe , and i cannot tell how many more ; it was agreed that titus should go to piercy , the end of his going was to promote an agreement between the king and the scots , according to the covenant ( and , my lord , you shall hear in due time what that covenant is , that m. love hath said in his late defence , ) in order to his going , we did agree to furnish him with money for the present , and made some kinde of promise to keep him while he was out ; about an hundred pound was furnish'd ; for my part , i paid twenty pounds of it . this is adams . the next is farr : he sayes , he did understand by drake , that titus , who was here requested as one , to be present at the treaty at jersey , which titus did undertake to go thither ; he undertook to go himself : that after he was gone , drake desired farr to let him have ten pound , saying , titus was in want , and upon this i lent him ten pounds ; the letter was read at m. loves house when he came from calice . so my lord , here is now under favour , his proof before you of this meeting at dowgate , at the swan there , finish'd in bredstreet , carried over unto jersey , titus the messenger furnish'd with money by a party from hence in this arrant , as we told you . my lord , all this while i do not hear of m. love : if he were , my lord , he was like the mole under ground : but however , my lord , mr. love hath carried himself ( as some have said ) like a rat among joynt-stools , a man can see him , but cannot hit him ; but , my lord , i doubt he will appear to be too busie in what followes , and that he had a hand in it at first . my lord , the next to go on with is this , in time ; that when titus finish'd his work at jersey , he was then to give an account to his masters that imployed him , and upon his return he was to doe it faithfully , as he thought . but being informed , that the state had vigilant eyes , and they discovered him what he had been doing there , and he having notice from some of his stedfast friends here of it , he thought it was not safe for him to come in person , so that his guilty conscience kept him off : but then he did desire that he might give an account by the hand of some others , by their memories , and for that purpose wrote a letter , to whom i cannot tell , i think to drake ; the letter was written , and under favour , my lord , this letter from titus was read in m. loves house , to have one sent to him ; and there it was propounded for some to be sent , adams was propounded , for him to go ; farr propounded for him to go ; but not them , but alford was agreed to go , and did accept of it : but not that he was there , my lord. my lord , for this i shall crave the same favour from you , to read adams and farr , as to that particular . this is major adams , it was moved in m. loves house , m. love being there present , that i should go to calice to meet titus ; but alford going thither , did at his return give an account of the state of things at m. loves house . my lord , that i read him for , is for that part , that it was moved in m. loves chamber , m. love being then present : that i should go to calice to meet titus ; it was moved that adams should go ; my lord , this i read to show m love was privie to this before the messenger was sent . my lord , the next is capt. ralph farr . i was in m. loves house in his study , wherein ( in m. loves study ) a letter was read from titus , desiring one might be sent to him to calice ; and thereupon it was moved that i should go , but afterwards it was agreed that alford should go , who went accordingly . that is now as to that particular , that before any man was sent unto calice , it was made known in m. loves house , and some propounded for to go , and at last another did goe ; this , my lord , i offer to you , as that which will not be controverted by m. love , for i have read you two witnesses to it . the next , my lord is , in which ( i think ) we doe not differ , but that when alford had been at calice , and had taken the account that titus gave him , the copy of the letter which he said was from the king to the presbyterian party here , the narrative of all the transactions and proceedings at jersey ; that upon his return , i think we do not differ , nor is it denied ; i am sure m. love acknowledged it in his last defence , because proved by four , therefore confessed ; my lord , that this narrative , the copy of this letter was read in his house , and for that i have the testimony of adams , alford , jaquel , and farr , which if it be your pleasure , i shall humbly read unto you . the first is major john alford , having received at calice a narrative in writing of titus his transactions in jersey , i brought the same to drake , to whom it was directed : now it appears to whom the direction was ; and he brought it to m. loves house , where it was read ; afterwards there was a commission so called ; but my lord , if you please , that is for this in the first place , that this narrative brought from titus by alford , was read at m. loves house . the next is adams , but alford going to calice , did at his return give an account of the state of things at m. loves house , which account was the narrative from titus , and the copy of the letter said to be the kings letter . the contents whereof i remember was as followeth , the king expressed a great deal of affection to the ministry in generall in england , and promised them great favours when he was in a condition , and desired them to continue stedfast in the way they were in ; which letter was read and publish'd in m. loves study , and m. love was there sometimes of the reading , at the same time a motion was made of giving thanks to titus for his well managing affairs there , and at the same time the commission and instructions were . so that here is another testimony , that this was done at mr. loves house ; the narrative , sayes this gentleman , and the copy of the kings letter . my lord , the next i shall read unto you is mr. john jaquel . after alfords coming home , i was at mr. loves house , where was potter , drake and alford ; and mr. love was there some times , though di●ers times some body came to speak with him , and called him , and he went to speak with them : a narrative from titus was there read by alford or drake , wherein was declared the kings inclination to make peace with the scots , but his wicked councel hindred him . i think it was a narrative of what had pass'd between the king and titus at jersey . this is that that jaquel sayes . the next , my lord , i● far ; alford being returned , he gave account of his imployment at mr. loves house ; a copie of a letter was there read , from the king to the presbyterian party in england ; the substance was to send commissioners to the treaty at breda . the narrative brought from titus was communicated at mr. loves house : where were present ten or twelve persons . so , my lord , you have heard these four witnesses , what they have said concerning this : now you shall give me leave to make application of this to the former ; i shall crave you favour to go thorow this . there follows more at mr. loves house ; this is not ended yet . my lord , after this , there was somewhat propounded to be done upon this narrative and a letter from the king ; somewhat was propounded at this meeting : my lord , then there was ( as i know the court remembers ) speech of a commission that was somewhat controverted . there was speech of a commission , and a commission read , mr. love ingenuously acknowledgeth , and it was proved , and he declared his dissenting from it , and that he was against it , because as private persons they had no power to do any such thing . but , my lord , that there was a commission read there , brought by drake ( i do not say that this proves that mr. love corrected it : ) that there were instructions and letters read for to be sent over , i think , is not denyed : but , my lord , for that , if you please , i shall read you the witnesse . the first is alford : afterwards there was a commission , so called , agreed among us , sent over to the lord willoughby of parham , massey , graves and titus , at b●eda , to advise with the scots commissioners there , in behalf of the presbyterian party in england . this commission was read in mr. loves studie : and at the same time instructions for the commissioners to walk by were agreed on to be sent : which commission and instructions were the substance of the petition formerly sent , to presse the king to take the covenant , and to prosecute the ends of it . this petition was ( i conceive ) what was formerly agreed upon at dow-gate : which commission and instructions one mason the lord piercy's man carried over . this is alfords testimonie as to this . and being ask'd by mr. love , did not i dissent from sending the commission and instructions ? he sayes this , it was agreed in the generall , that the commission and instructions should be sent , mr. love being then present . all present are principles , my lord . my lord , in the next place is major huntington's testimony ; and the first is this , that at mr. loves house , in the beginning of march , i found drake and others , and there was read a paper in the nature of a commission , commissionating my lord willoughby of parham , graves , titus , massey and bunce , to treat in the behalf of the well-affected party of england , and to joyn with the scots commissioners , according to such instructions as should be therein inclosed . and this question being asked , what power have wee to give or send such a commission ? drake answered , wee have the kings command for it , and the authority of some secluded parliament men ; for j look upon them beyond the power that is now sitting . whereupon mr. love replyed , come , come , let it go . you have heard huntingtons testimony , and mr. loves paraphrase upon those words . the next is adams . at the same time a commission and instructions were spoken of at mr. loves house , to be drawn up and sent . as j remember , mr. gibbons brought the rough draught . j am very confident that master love was there some part of this time ; and it was in his studie , where this was generally consented unto . the jnstructions were there agreed also , and read by drake , as j remember . sterks the scotish agent met with us sometimes at master loves house . this is what was testified by adams : there is another to this , and that is captain far : william drake read there a paper , of the nature of commission , which was not agreed to by the company , because private persons had no authority to give commission . the commission was in the name of the presbyterian party . a letter and instructions was then agreed upon , the commissioners were to be the lord willoughby of parham , bunce , massey and titus ; who was to move in the behalf of the presbyterians : papers then were read , to have been sent to the queen , to perswade the king to give satisfaction to the scots . but they were not assented to . my lord , i have done with this that concerns this meeting ; and now i shall apply that which i intended and spoke of before . the design you heard , that ( my lord ) was at the swan at dowgate , was treasonable enough in conscience , high enough ; a partie imployed to agitate ! and though wee do not finde mr. love to have been knowing or privie to it at first ; yet , my lord , if there be a treason hatch'd and designed , a partie sent in it ; and any subsequent act of any other party , that shall come into this , and approve of it , and joyn in it in what way soever , this man , my lord , is guilty of the first transaction of treason . so that though master love did so walk under ground , that wee cannot bring him in to be knowing at first , yet i bring him approving at last : and , my lord , though here be his first appearing , it is enough and too timely ; and my lord , titus departing , and an account given of all ; and for ought appears , not to be proved by mee , nor by any for the commonwealth , whether master love did approve or not ; or how far hee went in it . but hee was present , and at the debates and discoursings about it , and actings in it . my lord , this is far from misprision of treason ; for misprision of treason is a bare silent act , that carryes nothing of discourse nor debate with it : it is a simple act of omission . but when treasons are hatch'd , and are design'd , and others shall come and treat , and debate , and discourse upon carrying them on ; my lord , by the subsequent act hee hath approved of all that pass'd before , and made himself partie to it . here is an account given by titus of what had pass'd there ; this is brought into master loves house ; there are debates concerning a commission : whether they took the king for the authoritie , or the king wrote of it , it doth not much move mee . a copie of a letter from the king was read there , let them take it among themselves as they please . here was a commission debated , and master love acknowledgeth hee debated against it . my lord , under favour , if hee had declared an utter dislike , and ( as hee himselfe sayes ) a detestation and abomination against it ! but hee goes on , though not in that particular , yet in another ; and hee is guilty of all . in treason there are no accessaries , all present are principles . the crime of treason is beyond the crying blood of murther , one is but private , the other is publike ; so as , my lord , though mr. love acknowledgeth , that he so far owned the narrative from titus and the proceedings there , the reading of it , but did dissent from the commission , and did speak against it , and at present i shall take it so too ; yet for the instructions sent , and for the commission named , you have had four witnesses named to you ; my lord , dissent will not serve his turne , and yet to that there is not a pretence of a dissent from the instructions , and what was sent , and that is a consent and concurrence , and that is an approbation of all precedent actions , and makes himself a party in it , and that is by one witnesse ; and , my lord , you have heard by master serjeant witherigton , that to every circumstance there needs not two witnesses , but to the designe there must be two ; and adams himselfe sayes it was propounded to have given titus money , as you shall hear by and by ; and far tels you , that there was going on so farre in it , that a paper was read for letters to be sent to the queen to move her to perswade the king , but that was not assented to ; but it was moved among them . my lord , the next thing i shall take , as near as i can , was when this was done , and this transaction past over , and the instructions sent , that were agreed upon for commissioners at bredah , then begins the troubles in ireland . you have heard of a paper book sent , written in sack , and returned a year after ; that comes next : there was sent over from colonel bamfield ( mr. love says , he knew not the face of the man ) but he lik'd his imployment it seems , that would be privie to such proceedings from a man he knew not . there came a servant over , i take it from bamfield , and that was about christmas last , that is the time exprest after dunbar fight . my lord , this was brought , the letter was delivered to potter , and their superscription was singly with the letter l. which i may say , may be better applyed to master love , then to any other , all circumstances considered ; yet i shall not conclude from it , but though he sayes , he had no letters directed to him , i shall say as truly , that they were directed to him , as much as to any man else , and a little more ; for master love was very unfortunate , that these letters should be brought to him , read in his house , the transactions there , and mr. love to have no hand in it ; this is hardly to be beleeved . my lord , in the next place are these letters that came from bamfield : if it please you , for that i shall read potter . i received letters out of scotland from bamfield , with the letter l upon it , wherein was a large narrative of the affairs of scotland , from dunbar fight , to the time of the date of them , which ( i think ) was about christmas . i carried those letters to master loves , where was one or two more with us , jaquel , and i think doctor drake , we three i am sure of it . there were letters from a namelesse person , whom we supposed to be master baily ; and a letter from my lords of argile , louthain , and lowden . these letters wrote for ten thousand pounds for buying of arms and hiring of shipping ; and for five thousand men to be landed in england . these letters were dislik'd and dissented from ; and it was agreed to give a negative answer : and we thought fit ( for our own safety ) to raise some money for the messenger and bamfield : the sum●n agreed on was forty pounds ; to which i contributed ten pounds . i carried the letter to mr loves , to take advice upon it . mr. love and i , and jaquel read those letters that were opened , and those that were not opened , we did open and read , and discourse on them ; and upon advice resolved to do nothing in it : neither did they reveal it . and then being demanded , whether at mr. loves house there was not a discourse for raising or l. he answered , there was . being demanded whether letters were not returned to bamfield , with the money sent him ; he answered , a letter was left at my shop , and i apprehended it came from master love , or mr. drake . ( and jaquel being demanded whether mr. drake and mr. love were not appointed to draw up the letter ? he answered , yes , they were . ) and that is potters testimony . the next mention is , that jaquel was present there , he is sure of it ; master love himself , and jaquel . this is jaquels testimony ; at a meeting at mr. loves house , master love being present , it was thought fit that forty pounds should be raised for bamfield . a letter was read from bamfield at master loves house , mr. love being present ; mr. love declared , he never saw or knew bamfield . the letter was for five thousand pounds to hire shipping . and another letter from my lords of argile , louthain and others , at the same time and place was read , to induce the confederates to give credit to bamfield . potter moved that ten pounds might be given to the messenger that brought the letter , and thirty pounds to bamfield : which was considered of , and nothing said against it . there was no agreement ; but it was thought convenient by all then present . upon this mr. love ask'd mr jaquel a question , and he said , i cannot say that mr. love said , it was convenient : but it was not dissented from , or spoken against by any . my lord , i suppose this is a faithfull relation of what the witnesses said . my lord , you have heard of this , and the time when it was ; that bamfields servant was sent , and letters brought from scotland , giving an account of proceedings there : letters from argile , louthain , lowden , and belcar●is , to give credit to what bamfield should relate : money provided , though not the sum nor the means those letters did hint to them ; perchance their purses could not reach that ; but so far as they could goe , they would ; they would reward him that brought it , and him that sent it ; and thereupon . l. was provided , ten pounds for the messenger , and thirty pounds for bamfield . in this repetition i think i have not wronged mr love. the next is the letter that came from massey and titus , who were then in scotland ; and in what condition i think every man knowes ; in what condition they are there : though by the way , i should be sorry to repeat that which mr. love did say the first day , that it did not appear to him , that the scots were in arms against the parliament of england , but in arms for their own preservation ; and therefore did desire councell ; here was one of his reasons why he desired councell to be informed , to advise him whether they were in arms for their own preservation , or in opposition to the parliament of england : this was that mr. love was pleased to say the first day . my lord , this of massey and titus gives them an account likewise of the affairs in scotland after dunbar fight too . if you pleas● , my lord , i will read you three witnesses to that , and that neither doth mr. love deny , but that these letters were read at his house . this is major john alfords . after dunbar fight , we met at mr. loves house in his lower room , where a letter from massey was read , which gave an account of the fight there ; wherein he also wrote for arms , mentioning his own and titus necessities . thereupon a proposition was made for raising of monies for the supplying of their necessities ; and five hundred pounds being propounded , it was brought down to two or three hundred pounds , to be raised among our selves : mr. love did then move for contribution of money to that purpose ; and i thereupon promised ten pounds , which my man paid . this , my lord , is the testimony which alford gives , as to this concerning massey . the next is adams . when the money was propounded to be raised for massey and titus , certainly mr. love was then present ; and this after the fight at dunbar : and the money was agreed to be raised by those that were privy to the correspondency ; mr. love had then a paper in his hand , and did write some thing , i saw not what he did write , and so every man that was there did write what he would lend , i conceive mr love summed up every mans sum . masseys letter was for armes , and the money propounded was for titus and massey ; for titus , because he was sent by us : and mr. love was there . this , my lord , is adams his testimony ; and though he did not know what mr. love writ , yet he kn●w what mr. love moved . my lord , here is another , and that is captain farr , which i shall make bold to read to the court likewise , concerning the same action . after dunbar fight i came somewhat late to a meeting at mr. loves house , where mr. love told me a letter was come from massy , to assist the king with money and armes , but it was not agreed that any money or armes could be sent . and i understood from mr. love they could not do it . mr. love then likewise told me , they agreed to raise a sum of money for titus , massy , and graves , and to be sent to relieve them in their necessity ; which sum , whether it was l. or l. i cannot positively say ; but mr. love moved me to contribute ; i told him i would give him five pound , which i brought wrapt up in a paper , and laid it down on mr. love 's table , mr. love and severall others being in the room ; it was so done that there might be no discovery . and mr. love asking him some questions upon this , whether it it was done so by mr. love or no , he did not know that , but it was done so by himselfe , that there might be no discovery . my lord , mr. love did not disagree ; far being crosse examined by mr. love , did not say that mr. love did disagree to the sending the money to massy and titus . so i have done with that particular likewise , the receiving letters from massy , and of the account from scotland , and the fight there . that which adams saith , mr. love having replyed unto it , concerning a letter writ to the generall assembly and kirk of scotland ; and in that , my lord , he is pretty positive . adams testimony is ; there was a letter written to the generall assembly and kirk of scotland at mr. loves house ; mr. love was sometimes present at this meeting : which letter was taken to be penn'd by m. love and mr. drake , and i thought it to be so because of the language of it ; and that after drake escaped all the meetings i know of , were at his house ; and so my lord , say some others . being examined , he sayes , i saw letters which were read in mr. loves house , mr. love was present and privy to the debating of them , and did not declare any dissent . my lord , i have now done with these particulars , you have seen mr. love at the end , though you found him not at the beginning ; it is not good to come at the ending of the quarrell . but , my lord , under favour , by the lawes and rules of justice , if any ill thing be contrived and plotted , and afterwards any other person shall come into the contrivance of it , and carry it on ; my lod , i think i shall not need to say much in it , but he is culpaple and guilty of the whole , from the first to the last : and that mr. love should be but a meer spectatour , a meer concealing person , it is very hard to be beleeved by any that are rationall men ; for after that once titus hath done his errand at jersey , and gives his account here ; my lord , that his transactions , and the subsequent imployment , all that we know of , are all transacted , and carryed on in mr. loves house , in mr. loves study , in mr. loves presence : it was not one or two , or three times , which had been enough , and very well had it been for mr. love , if he had done as bayns did , or as barton did ; they when they heard ( though that were too much for them , my lord , to conceal , as they have done , yet did confesse it when required ) they left off when they heard of it , they would go no further in it , they knew the danger of it . mr. love , my lord , as you will hear anon , by what himself hath proposed , what judgment and conscience led him to carry on this ; it was a conscience of his own covenanting interest and principles , for the scots , and religion that led him on to carry on this design . my lord , i have done with this , that is the evidence against him ; for application to it , you have heard the severall lawes read before the charge opened , that man is guilty of high treason , and is a traitour by the lawes of the land now , that doth any way promote , declare , or publish charls ste●art to be king of england . my lord , you have heard the evidence , what titus hath plotted , what drake hath carryed on , what mr. love hath approved of , and how far he hath consented and joyned in the design . my lord , i shall say it again , if titus and drake be traitours , as their own guilty consciences have made themselves judge themselves so ; he that flies confesseth the fact ; my lord , they are fled . my lord , if they be traitours , mr. love must be the same with them ; for mr. love was carrying on , and hath agreed , and concurred , and approved of carrying on the design that titus and drake have acted ; consenters and agents are to have the same punishments ; in treason there a●● no accessaries . my lord , the next point is this ; the next act is that of the . of janury , , having given you the evidence , you will give me leave now shortly to repeat the law. the first is , for promoting charls stewart , &c. that if any person shall maliciously and advisedly plot , contrive and endeavour to stir up or raise forces against this present parliament , and for the subversion of the same , and shall declare it by any open deed , &c. my lord , mr. love is pleased to expresse himself that none can accuse him , nor none have sworn against him , that he hath raised any seditions , any insurrection , any rebellions ; my lord , i cannot say it fully , whether he be guilty of that , or no ; but this i will say ( the judgement i shall leave to the court upon the evidence heard ) if mr. love be guilty of any thing moving or tending towards the raising of forces , seditions , or rebellions , though the thing be not done , yet , my lord , it is treason , those practices ; those purposes are treason by the law , though they never come to act ; we shall not look , i hope , to see a rebellion raised before we shall say it is treason , and endeavour against it ; but for that , how far he is guilty upon the evidence of being instrumental of the war in scotland , and to have endeavoured to have a party got in england ; my lord , i shall leave it to your judgment upon the evidence you have heard . my lord , there is likewise another in the same law , if any person procure , invite , agree , aid or assist any forraigner or stranger , to invade england or ireland , or adhere to any forces raised by the enemies of the parliament , or common-wealth , or keepers of the liberties of england ; this is high treason ; for this you have heard the evidence what mr. love hath done towards this , still upon the same foot of account it is treason , though but proposed and intended , though not acted ; then there is another clause upon the law , that mr. love hath insisted upon , of constituting this court. but for those former i have said , and you shall give me leave to repeat it again , that these lawes offended against , though in time before this court was constituted , yet this court hath , in expresse words , commission and authority given them by the parliament , to take cognizance of all facts and offences , done after that law , though done before your commission ; and that , my lord , is not to be doubted , to be a very good and legall authority : and yet for this the law that constitutes this court , of the of march . that no person after the of march , shall give or hold any intelligence by letters , messages , or otherwise , with charls stewart , james stewart , or the late queen their mother , or the councell abiding with any of them , prejudiciall to the commonwealth , or with any that shall be in armes against the parliament of england , or shall bring or send into england , ireland , or any dominions of this commonwealth , letters , messages , or instructions , tending to raise insurrections or a new war within this nation , and shall not forthwith reveal the same to the speaker of the parliament , or to the councell of state , or two members thereof , or to two justices of peace , shall be guilty of , &c. that is a clause in the law that constitutes this court. and no person shall voluntarily relieve any person in arms , or that shall be in arms against the parliament , with any money , victualls or amunition , on pain of death of other corporall punishment . and whosoever shall voluntarily take up arms against the parliament , and shall encourage others to do so , shall die without mercy . these , my lord , are clauses contained in the act that constitutes this court ; and i read the law before the charge ; and now , my lord , i have repeated the evidence faithfully , now let it be considered howifar the evidence goes with them : there are there acts of parliament , i suppose mr. love knew not of the next , for he says , he knew not of that of the of august , but it was published solemnly at the exchange , and at westminster hall ; but ignorance cannot excuse him , that no man will pretend . this , my lord , is in relation to scotland , it was made in august : the battel at dunbar , i cannot well tell whether it was in september or october ; in september this correspondency from bamfield , argyle , lowden and lowthen , belcarris , massey and the rest , were all since dunbar fight ; that is clear , they were since that time ; the words of the law are these , whoever , after the . of august , shall use , hold , or maintain any correspondency or intelligence with any of the scots nation residing in scotland , without license from the parliament , or with any other person or persons of the scottish or any other nation , whom they know to adhere to the scottish nation against the parliament ; or shall abet , assist , countenance or incourage the scottish nation , or any other person adhering to them in their war against the parliament and commonwealth of england , or shall send , or cause to be sent and conveyed any money , horse , armes , amunition , or any other furniture of plate , goods , merchandise , or any supply whatsoever to the scots , or to any port or place thereof , or in their power , or in confederacy against this nation , these facts are high-treason by this law. and the high court of justice are to take cognizance of the contents by express provision of that law. my lord , i shall not need to repeat the evidence again , but upon these ( my lord ) i must leave him to your justice and judgement to do what in your consciences you think is just upon these laws , and what m. love hath done in transgression against them . my lord , m. love was pleased at the beginning of this triall , to make some deep protestations , i think he did move all honest men that heard him , and truly i did think and did hope , that they were not made with any relation to equivocation , or mentall reservation ; but to a positive deniall of any facts of treason , or looking that way ; that it had been made in that sense , that he had been clearly not guily of any thing : but ( my lord ) having looked upon them , and caused them to bee transcribed to me , i doe finde that they are somewhat cautious , and perchance they may be true , my lord , in the sense spoken by m. love , but whether true in the sense they should have been spoken by a christian in a publike assembly , that i shall not judge . his first protestation was , in the presence of god and this assembly , that i never wrote any letter to the king , or to the church , nor to the queen , or church and state of scotland in generall , or to any particular person of the scotch nation , since the war began to this very day . my lord , this may be true , but whether any letter hath been sent from the king , or from the scottish nation , or others , or by massie or the rest , that shall bee believed as the evidence is . m. love. it is in my second protestation . at. g. again ( saith he ) i do likewise declare in the presence of the same god , i never received letter written to me from the king , or from the queen his mother , or from the church or state of scotland in general , or any particular person of the scottish nation since the war began . i protest & declare likewise in the presence of the same god , i never collected , gave or lent penny of money either to send into scotland , or any forrain parts , either to the king of scots , or to the queen his mother , to the church or state of scotland in general , or to any particular person of the scottish nation since the wars began ; but that m. love did not move others to contribute we have not a word of that . truly , i did thinke it when hee spoke it . but it seems these asseverations were studied to evade , and that he would speake true , but not the whole truth . i have given them but a touch , these may be true , my lord , but under favour there is something else that is as true , and goes almost as neer as this . my lord , m. love the last day had your patience and justice to make a large defence , and he was very large in it ; and though hee did beat us down , that are the counsell for the publike , that wee should not use oratory , nor flourishes , nor querks of law , nor niceties , in which i shall be guided by him , and shall not doe it ; yet he is pleased fully to make use of all insinuations to the court to trip up every witness upon niceties , upon not expression , upon nonsense , and such ( my lord ) which i shall not follow him in : for i shall deale as truth ought to deale in pure nakedness and simplicity , and not to use any oratory , but to set the matter of fact before you , and leave it unto the court , who are the judges between the common-wealth and himselfe for life and death . but , my lord , you shall give me leave to touch upon some few things in the late defence of his , it was divided into four parts . the first , the charge ; the second , the witnesses and testimony both in one . the witnesses for the persons , the testimony for the fact : the third , concerning himself ; the fourth , some proposalls to the court , which truly ( my lord ) might better have been termed rather threatnings , than proposalls . my lord , for the charge , you have heard it hath been gone through , and the evidence concerning it ; concerning the witnesses ( my lord ) i have read unto you ( for i do take it upon my conscience ) what i knew , and nothing but what was true , i have not varied that i know of a syllable , and i think i ought not to do it , the duty of my place requires it not from me . my lord , concerning himself , he is pleased to say something , and much of his merit , but ( my lord , it is a grief to this court , to my selfe , and all that are well-wishers to the publike , that any man that hath been a friend to the parliament , that hath gone along with them , acted for them , suffered for them , done as he hath done , that this man should bee called to publike justice ; i hope ( my lord ) all that heare mee beare witness , that i thinke ( my lord ) wee are all sensible of it . but , my lord , look upon who hath been the cause of it , let that he look'd into , and every man will be satisfied in his own judgement and consceince , whether mr. love were provoked or no ; or whether he hath not provoked the state to bring him to be thus exemplary in justice . m. love sayes , ( my lord , i shall desire to make use of the paper ) i confess it is not so much the danger of my life , i am a sickly man , and i know a disease will ere long kill me , whatsoever you doe with me ; but this grieves me more , that i should suffer from your hands , for whom i have done and suffred so much in my obscure station , and according to my weak measure . had i been so dealt with at oxford at the juncto there ! but to be so dealt withall in westminster-hall , this troubles me . and my lord , it doth trouble me to deal so with him . my lord , whether may we or himself better take up this complaint ? had the state been thus used by a cavalier , by a posest open enemy , it had not been so much trouble to us , you would have come to justice upon a little more desire than now : but that m. love , a minister , a minister of the gospel , a man that hath preached for us , prayed for us , acted with us , gone along with us , that he should go to undermine us , that he should be joyned , or in confederacy with others to undermine the state , where he did live peaceably and quietly , where none interrupted him ; he had a free liberty , as much as a king in this common-wealth : truly that m. love should do this , it is ( i think ) an aggravation , and not an aggravation upon the court or state ; that they should prosecute where a man is prosecuting them ; what hee hath done , my lord , you have heard ; what his offences have been , and who gave the cause , that a minister should doe this , one that had a calling otherwhere , and better to imploy himself , than to meddle with states , and secular affairs ; and these things to be done in m. love's house , and in his study , where he should have been studying better things . my lord , next he sayes , i could not leave such relations as i have , nor such a loving people and competent living as any minister hath within london , onely conscience carried mee another way , and till conscience bee satisfied , i cannot stirre one jot . my lord , this his conscience , i do not know what it hath to do in government , or what mr. loves conscience had to doe in these affairs : he had a calling of his own to use ; and should i goe out of my calling and meddle with other men , i humbly conceive , i were a busie body . m. love had a calling enough for any one man to imploy himself in , and me thinks , when he sayes he had such a relation to a loving people , a competency of livelihood , that he should not apply himself to return to them , but to wander abroad ; and when we once wander , it is hard coming in again , till perchance we are fetch'd in again with the whip . but ( my lord ) mr. love had other relations of wife and children , which he might have look'd upon also , and taken care of them . in the last place , he is pleased to say , ( and that i believe hath carried on this design ) the covenant interest ; you have heard what titus did , what drake did , and what the rest did , that all this it was upon the covenant , and the covenant is urged , i am sure , to things the parliament hath forbid . m. love is pleased to declare himself still to retain his old principles , from which ( by the grace of god ) hee will not be taken off by any terror . my lord , you will heare by and by what the covenant hee supposes leads him to , and ( my lord ) i shall take it asunder , and bring it next , if you please , that is , the covenant interest ▪ saies m. love , though i own not the way of managing any papers , i neither writ them , nor sent them , yet thus far i own the thing , i confess it was agreeable to my judgement and conscience , and i thought the interest of godliness would be more promoted if the king went into scotland upon covenant-terms , it would be more for the good of the nation . m. love. no sir , those are not my words , i said , than to fall in with the irish rebells , or to offer this kingdom to the spaniard . i thought a greater foundation of trouble would be laid , if this reception were not laid by that nation : and the covenant hath a clause in it , that we are to seek the good and union of both nations ; and they are judged to be incendiaries and malignants that not onely divide the king from his people , but the kingdomes one from another . now they declaring him to be their king , according to my apprehension , i thought it agreeable to my covenant to pray and desire as a private man , and no more , that there might bee an agreement upon those terms consisting with religion , and the terms of the covenant . at. gen. but had you gone on as a private man , m. love , we had not stir'd you now : my lord , this is plain of it self , what interest this covenant-interest is , till the king & the people in the two nations , &c. truly , my lord , m. love is pleased to express himself somwhat obliquely against the present government . he saith , my lord , when i look upon all the vowes , covenants , declarations , protestations of both houses of parliaments , i find a sutablenesse between my judgement and them , and am not conscious to my selfe of any thing i have done in opposition or contradiction thereunto ; i repent not of whatsoever i have done , though i could wish the ends of that just war had been better accomplished : then should we have been happy , and united among our selves , and honoured among the nations round about us . i am so far from repenting of what i have done , both by doing , and contributing , and suffering in the parliaments quarrel , that were it to be done againe upon the same unquestionable authority , for the same declared ends , and against the same malignant persons , i should manifest as much readinesse of mind to engage according to my measure . after this , where he had mentioned his troubles at oxford , when a scholler there , and at london , when he came to a lecture here ; at newcastle , when he spake for the parliament there ; and in kent , when he spake against the king there ; when these were over , after this he had a little breathing , whilst the two houses of parliament were in power : this gentleman was troubled in the time of the king , in the time of the bishops , in the time of these wars , for being for the parliament : but i appeal to his own conscience and judgment , whether ever he was troubled or disturbed by this parliament , or by this government of the commonwealth , whether he had not as free and as full liberty to preach the gospel , to instruct others , and to save souls , as his heart could wish ; and i desire to know whether ever the parliament did enterpose with him , till he did interpose with us . he went out of his way , my lord , he was quiet and safe in as much security as any of us ; and , my lord , even those that were the watchmen for the safety of this commonwealth ; did watch and take as much care , even for his preservation , as for any one of ours , and thus he hath required them . my lord , i will repeat it ; i appeal to his own conscience , and to any of his friends here , whether ever , till his judgement and conscience did interpos● in state affairs , to dispose of kingdoms and commonwealths , whether ever 〈◊〉 were in the least interupted . my lord , he sayes himselfe , when he came to be a lecturer in london , the bishop would not admit of him in three years , yet ( my lord ) he is admitted here three years , and none hath interupted him ▪ and your selfe say , you have a competent livelihood , and a people very loving to you , and you might have so continued if you would . my lord , his proposalls to the court , i do say , were hardly fair proposals , for they had a little of threatning in them ; for ( sayes he ) if you censure rather upon a politicall interest , then of the me●rit of the fact , the scripture counts it not justice , but murther : truly ( my lord ) i think justice is a politicall interest , the preservation of the generall ; but surely i do not think the person will come in judgement before you , but the merit of his fact ; and as yet i may say , i suppose the treasons hee hath committed , if those find him guilty , if the court finds him guilty of those facts laid to his charge , and if you are satisfied in your judgements , that they are proved ▪ my lord , it is justice , not murder ; and it is justice , that which politicall interest requires of you , that justice be done upon the prisoner . and he is pleased to say in his last defence , that he denyed the commission to be s●nt , and entituling the presbyterian party to it : and he hath acknowledged it had been very high presumption if they should have done it , and a notorious false-hood : and in that i joyn with him ; and whether he hath not done so ( my lord ) that i shall leave to you . that the presbyterian name was made use of , you have had many concurrent evidences , and mr. love was present when these things were mentioned ; and if it be a fault which himselfe hath acknowledged , it is right done to the presbyterian party , who , i am sure will not owne him in it . my lord , but a word more ; this last day he was pleased to mention his sermon , which made me a little to enquire after it , it was preached at uxbridge ( my lord , i had the honor to be at the treaty ) which hath been so much spoken of , and truly i wonder this gentleman did not remember what he said then ; if you please ( my lord ) i shall put you in mind of some passages : i have the sermon here . mr. atturney generall reads out of the book which he said was mr. love's sermon . i have ever thought that too much mercy towards malignants , hath made more delinquents then ever justice hath done . mercy should not weigh down justice ( my lord , these are good instructions ) in god they are both equall , why should it not be so in man ? pity to the bad , hath proved cruelty to the good ; the sparing of offenders hath made many worse , few or none better ( and my lord , we know it . ) to them that have shewed no mercy , let judgement be shewed without mercy ; much guilt contracted , much innocent blood spilt , which either must be avenged on us , or by us ; my lord , that is one of his clauses , and here is another : . the lord heals a land , by cutting off those distempered members that endanger the health of a land ( here is good doctrine my lord ) it was the lord troubled achan and cut him off , because he troubled israel : oh that in this our state , physitians would resemble god , to cut off those from the land who have distempered it ; i suppose he meant , or shall do ; that ( my lord ) was his opinion then : and those who lie under the guilt of much innocent blood , are not meet persons to be at peace with , till all the guilt of blood be expiated , either by the sword of the law , or the law of the sword ; and a peace can never be safe nor just till then . what m love hath indeavoured since ( my lord ) i shall say nothing ; and i have but one word more , and it is this , my lord , he sayes it is not likely to have a peace with such men as these , the malignant party , while they continue thus . we can assoon make fire and water agree , yea , i had almost said , heaven and hell , as their spirits and ours ; for either they must grow better , or we worse , before we can agree . my lord , i thinke there is little hope of their growing better , and my lord , we have not grown worse . my lord , i shall trouble you no further , i shall use nothing of aggravation , but as justice is blinded , to let the evidence appear to you in pure nakedness . my lord , you have heard the evidence ( as i humbly conceive ) in the same language , in the same habity in the same words as spoken by the witnesses : and ( my lord ) having heard those , and the lawes , and the charge against him , upon the whole i shall humbly leave him to stand , or fall by your justice and judgement . m. love. my lord , i humbly crave leave to speak but one word , m. at. gen. hath replied to my defence as to the matter of fact ; concerning his reply i shall not insist upon it , yet i shall humbly crave leave to insist upon two particulars . — at. gen. if i have given any new evidence , mr. love ought to be heard ; but ( my lord ) i have declined it ; and for those passages in his sermon , i do not urge one word of evidence against him , and for the rest they are his own words which he hath said the last day , and i have brought nothing new before you , and if the sermon preached at vxbridge should be an occasion , i shall cast it aside . mr. love. i humbly conceive there are new suggestions expressed in court by those worthy gentlemen , whose names i know not , nor their imployments neither ; but as to those i shall humbly crave leave in a word or two ; and then as to the whole matter of the depositions i shall humbly offer some matter of law arising upon the whole matter given in . — at. gen. i shall crave leave too ( my lord ) and leave it to you , for any suggestions , they are but suggestions , as mr. love sayes himself , and that is nothing for the evidence : mr. love ( my lord ) had the last day , & i should have this day ; had he said he had any thing to say , or if he had had any thing more , he might have said it , i did wait if he would have said any thing : but ( my lord ) when the whole was clos'd , and no new evidence : i did not answer all the suggestions of m. love the last day , his evidence & depositions wil conclude the court , that it is not suggestions and insinuations , the court are above those ; when the evidence is clos'd for the common-wealth , let it be concluded there : if they offer any now evidence , mr. love may have liberty to answer . m. love. though i dare not tax m. at. gen. for discharging his duty in his place , yet for the preservation of my own life . i must not be wanting to my self , if your lordship and the court will give leave , and that is humbly to beseech your lordship to take notice , that m. at. gen. in the relation of the matter of fact in the depositions is pleased to raise the correspondency ( as he is pleased to call it ) as high as jersey , and so makes me to be particeps criminis ; that i should be judged by you upon the whole matter ; now alford upon oath did declare , that drake & titus held correspondency , & that the ministers knew , nothing of it . at. gen. i do not say you did . m. love. therefore i beseech you i may not be judged upon that matter ; and then i beseech your lordship to observe that m. at. gen. is pleased to say , he would no insist upon inferences nor strains of wit , but truly i have discerned both . l. pres . you totally err from the way you ought to walk in , and take upon you to judge others . the court will consider whether he hath offer'd any thing or not , we have notaries , and so have you ; you spent the last day only in making comments & collections , yet that you might have some liberty of discourse , we sate here patiently two hours , and did hear that which we ought not , nor you ought to have spoken ; and now you are entring the same way of inferences and collections , as though we did not sit here to take notice of what was done , but we must receive the last word from you and your comment ; if you had had new matter the last time , you might have been heard , we expected you would have brought new witnesses , but they were in the same crime with your selfe , and you would rather betray your self , then them : and god and the truth than them ; but wee will bee as carefull of any comments as you your selfe can bee : and thinke that wee have so much piety and charity , that wee sit here with as good affections of justice and piety , as are in your own brest ; this book was not given as evidence against you , and all that is in your comments , we shall understand it . mr. love. my lord , i have only one motion , i have some matters in law to offer to your lordship to consider by way of exception to the charge , and also to the depositions of the witnesses ; i have a paper that i humbly desire might be read in court as matter in law arising from the charge , and from the depositions of the witnesses . at. gen. why did you not this before ? mr. love. i am ignorant of the customes of the court. l. pres . i beleeve you have wronged your own brest in many things you have said , and you have said you have been ignorant , in many things that you have known very well , it is not good to dally , you will be ignorant at one time , and at another time more knowing then others . mr. love. i beseech your lordship , it is a new suggestion of the att. gen. that concealment of treason for a tract of time , is treason . l. pres . there is no new words of suggestion ; if mr. atturny hath not spoken it , not read it according to the truth , we will examine it . mr. love. he hath done it with disadvantage to me . l. pres . if he have , he shall not do it with disadvantage to us , for we will be as indifferent as your own breast ; therefore be not you a commentator of that , we understand so well as god inlightens , for whether hee hath done it with advantage or disadvantage , that is our part to consider . mr. love. i desire to have councel upon this matter of law arising from the evidence ; that concealment of treason by your acts , suppose it be for continuance or tract of time , yet by the law it is not treasons : and my concell informs me , that the act of the of march , that constitutes this court , gave you power to inquire into treason , but could not take cognisance of misprision of treason , till there was a subsequent act : therefore i desire this favour , that seeing it is so much suggested in court , and seeing the witnesses none can prove a personall act of mine , to bring me under your law , as to treason , i desire my councell to clear this , that concealment of treason , though for never so long atract of time , is not treason by the law of the land . at. gen. i will out mr. love of that scruple , he is not charged for misprision of treason , though i could have done it ; but that i insist upon is flat treason . it is true , s. thomas witherington was pleased to expresse it in the way of argument ▪ that concealment of treason long , comes to be treason ; but here are acts , and i insist upon the evidence , and the court will judg , for they have heard the evidence . mr. love , i beseech your lordship that the paper might be read , the exceptions that i have against the indictment , and the matters of law arising from the evidence . at. gen. my lord , truly i professe , i hope i am not in my nature cruel , that i should do injury to mr. love : but ( my lord ) i cannot favour him to do injury to the law of the nation . my lord , he hath one by him that hath taken every word of the charge . m. love. i did plead upon your lordships promise , that i should have a fair and indifferent hearing , and if matter of law did arise from matter of fact , which could not , you said , be known til the witnesses were deposed , i had your lordships promise , and i think the courts , that i should have counsel to plead to matter of law . at. gen. my lord , i think here is no legislative power in this court to change lawes ▪ my lord , i appeal to all here , whether the evidence we gave were not closed upon saturday , and all the depositions ; whether mr. love did not take care and pains to make his owne de●ence , as to matter of fact , and spent so many hours on wednesday last . my lord , he had all before that , if he had matter of law , it was more proper to move then ; but when he hath gone so far , and we have closed all , do but consider the consequence , that when this is done and all the evidences heard , then to come with matter of law ! l. pres . mr. love , that you have said hitherto is nothing but of the same nature of that you said the last day , and the court will take it into consideration and judge of it ; but if you have any thing in your paper , that is so included upon the evidence , for i tell you the evidence was ended the last day , and your reply ; and if you had any thing , you should have offered it the last day ; here hath been nothing new offered concerning you , but as it is usuall for the councell for the state to state the matter of fact to the court , for they have the last word ; but you had fully ended before , and shall we go out of the way for you , more then for a whole generation which the law runs u●to ? i do not know how to do it ; you had this paper in your pocket , you might have pulled 〈◊〉 out , a●d you ●●ve had time in a nearer degree to it ; yet the court is willing , if you 〈…〉 cou●cell , shortly read what you read upon for matter of law , they will hear it , if such exceptions as are not of your own , but by the advice of councell . mr. love gives in his exceptions . exceptions taken by chistopher love clerk , to the charge of high treason , and other high crimes and offences , exhibited to the high court of justice against him , by edmund prideaux esq atturney generall for the common-wealth of england . these exceptions are not here printed , for that they come in more properly afterward , being again in substance given into the court , and signed by mr. loves councell , and the substance of them then debated in court by mr. hale , a councell for m. love. att. gen. my lord , you have now some fruits of the notary : by the law of england , he that is impeached of high treason , is not to have the copie of the indictment ; it is said , the court are judges for the prisoner , and councell for him : to you all things be substantially charged . that there is a substantiall charge , the evidence makes out . but this precedent being admitted , and the former of lilburn's cited , i shall have little encouragement to go on with any charge of indictments . l. pres . though it be more then the law permits , yet the court will take consideration of it . att. gen. he did read his papers : i think it is more then ever was heard of in any court in the world : but to take his papers in by your clark ; i hope this is no replication to the charge , i hope he answers not that way ; then we shall dispute that way again : if he give papers , i may , and as embassadors , treat by papers . l. pres . mr. love , we have gone out of our way for you , and whatever hath been suggested by the councell this day is nothing , unlesse they had offered new matter ; and they have offered none : and therefore it is against any law that was ever yet practised in england . you were concluded before ; though haply the neglecting of it might have been a prejudice to you ; yet you have offered a paper which the court will take as a paper to consider of . the court adjourns into the painted chamber : and upon their return , the lord pres . speaks . l. pres . m. love , our long absence upon this account may seem to you and others , that we have had something of great difficulty among us , which we have considered of . that which hath been upon your papers last offered , in which you have set down the parts of the charge , and the statutes , and your exceptions ; these we have considered of . but to these , though you do affirm it here to us , that it is by advice of your councel ; yet it is not under your councels hand , nor your own ; which in order it should be ; we have considered of them , and our examining of them hath taken up a great deal of this time we have been absent . we finde that there may haply be some mistakes in your notes ; therefore it is resolved , though there seem not much difficultie to us , yet you shall have councell ; thus doing , that they shall set it down under their hands , what matter of law they will argue to , and bring it under their hands upon tuesday next at eight a clock , to this place , or to the painted chamber . mr. love. shall the councel have onely bare liberty , or will the court assigne them me ? l. pres . if you desire it , and name them , they shall be assigned you . m. love. i desire mr. maynard , mr. hale , mr. waller , and mr. archer . the clerk was called upon to read the order . clerk. friday , the of june . ordered by the high court of justice , that if the prisoners councel shall under their hands assigne any matters of law fit to be argued and presented to this court , on tuesday next at eight a clock in the morning , this court will take the same into further consideration . mr. love. i would know whether they are assigned to plead here in court , or to bring a paper under their hands . l. pres . if they will under their hands set down what they will stand to for law , it shall be considered , and they shall plead . m. love. i humbly thank your lordships favour , and the favour of the court. mr. love is commanded away . the court adjourns . the fifth dayes proceedings , july the . , these exceptions following signed by mr. love's councell , were delivered this morning by mr. love's solicitour into the court , sitting in the painted chamber . exceptions to the charge of high-treason , and other high crimes , and offences , exhibited to the high court of justice , by edmund prideaux esq atturney generall for the commonwealth of england , against christopher love clerk : and matters of law humbly presented to the said high-court , according to the direction of an order hereunto annexed . for this order , see the fore-going page . first the charge is , that christopher love as a false traitour , and enemy to the commonwealth of england , and out of a traiterous and wicked designe , to stir up a new and bloody war , and to raise insurrections , sedition and rebellion within this nation , in severall dayes and times , that is to say , in the yeers of our lord god , , , , at london and in divers other places within this commonwealth of england , and elsewhere , together with william drake , and divers other persons , did traiterously combine , confederate , and complet together , to stir and raise forces against the present government of this nation , since the same hath been setled in a commonwealth and free-state , without a king and house of lords , and for the subversion and alteration of the same . the act of the of july . is , that if any person shall maliciously or advisedly plot , contrive or endeovour to raise forces against the present government , or for the subversion or alteration of the same ; and shall declare the same by open deed , that every such offence shall be treason . exception . the words maliciously or advisedly are left out of the charge . . that the words of the act are omitted , which are , plot , contrive or endeavour , . it is not treason within the act to plot , contrive , or endeavour , to stir up or raise forces against the present government , or for the subversion or alteration of the same , unlesse the same be declared by some open deed . but the charge is , that christopher love did combine , confederate , and complet , to stir and raise up forces against the present government , &c. and it is not charged that he said christopher love did declare the same by any open deed . secondly , whereas the said christopher love is by the said articles charged , that for the subversion , and alteration of the same , and to carry on the said traiterous designe , that he did traiterously and maliciously declare , publish , and promote the eldest son of the late king to be king of england ( meaning this commonwealth ) without the consent of the people in parliament , first had , and signified by authority or ordinance to that purpose . the act of the . of january . is , that no person do presume to proclaim , publish , or any way promote charls stewart , son of the late king charls , commonly called , the prince of wales , or any other person , to be king , or chief magistrate of england , by colour of inheritance , succession , election , or any other claim whatsoever . exception . it is not expresly charged that the same was done after the said act made , neither doth the charge pursue the words or intent of the act. thirdly : the charge is , that to accomplish the said trayterous and wicked designe , the said christopher love , on severall dayes and times in the yeers aforesaid , at london &c. together with william drake and other persons , did trayterously and maliciously invite , aid and assist the scots , being strangers , to invade this commonwealth of england , and hath adhered to the forces of the enemies raised against the parliament the act of the of july . is , that if any person shall procure , invite , aid or assist any forraigners or strangers to invade england or ireland ; or shall adhere to any forces raised by the enemies of the parliament or commonwealth , or keepers of the liberties of england ; every such offence shall be taken to be treason . except . . that it is not alledged in his charge who in particular were the strangers that were invited to invade england . . that it is not alledged , that at the times of the invitement , aid and assistance laid in the charge , the scots were strangers . that it is not alledged particularly in the charge , to the forces of what enemies raised against the parliament , christopher love did adhere . it chargeth the prisoner for a treasonable assistance in some yeers that were before the said act of the of july was made . to advance the said traiterous and wicked designe , is uncertain to what designe it shall have reference , severall charges of treason being before expressed . fourthly . the charge is , that christopher love , divers dayes and times between the th of march . and the first day of june . at london &c. did traiterously and maliciously give , hold , use and maintain correspondency and intelligence by letters , messages , instructions or otherwise , prejudiciall to this commonwealth , with charles stewart son of the late king , with the late queen his mother , and with henry jermin , henry piercy , and divers other persons being of councel and abiding with charles stewart . by the act of march . the matters charged herein are onely prohibited , but are not made treason . except . . that this charge is mislaid , being charged to be done traiterously . the charge is uncertain , being alledged in the disjunctive ( or otherwise ) and shews not in what other manner . fifthly . the charge is , that christopher love , within the times , and at the places aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously use , hold and maintain correspondency and intelligence with divers persons of the scotish nation ; that is to say , with the earl of argile , and others of the scotish nation , and with divers other persons of other nations , whom christopher love well knew to adhere to the said scotish nation in the war against the parliament . the act of the d of august . is , that all and every person that shall use , hold or maintain any correspondency or intelligence with any person or persons of the scotish nation , residing in scotland , without the license of the parliament , the councel of state , or the lord generall : or with any person or persons of the scotish or any other nation whom they shall know to adhere to the scotish nation in this war against the parliament . except . . that it is not laid , that the persons of the scotish nation mentioned in the charge , were residing in scotland , nor expresly alledged that they did adhere . ▪ that it is not averr'd that such correspondency was holden without the license of parliament , councel of state , or the lord general , nor in what war the correspondence or intelligence was held . it is not laid with what particular persons of any other nation adhering to the scotish nation , correspondency or intelligence was holden ; nor of what nations . this correspondency and intelligence is not laid to be after the of august . mentioned in the said act of the d of august . but refers to a time preceding that act. sixthly . the charge is , that christopher love , within the times and at the places before mentioned , did traiterously and maliciously abbet , assist , countenance and incourage both the scotish nation , and divers other persons adhering to them in this war , against the parliament . and did send and convey , or cause to be sent and conveyed , moneys , arms , ammunition , and other supplies to scotland and other places , and to the said titus , &c. in confederacy against this nation , without license of the parliament of england , or councel of state , or generall of the army . the act of the d of august . is , that no person shall abbet , assist , countenance or incourage the scotish nation , or any other person or persons adhering to them in their war against the parliament and commonwealth of england ; or shall go , or send , or cause to be sent &c. any money , horse , arms , ammunition , or other supplyes into scotland &c. or to any person under their power , or in confederacy with them against this nation , without the license of the parliament of england , councell of state appointed by their authority , and of the captain generall of the parliaments forces a● aforesaid . except . . that there are no particular persons named , who were abetted , assisted , countenanced , or incouraged , neither of the scottish nation , nor of any other persons adhering to them . . in the charge , the sending of mony , &c. is laid to be done without the license of the parliament of england , or of the councel of state , or generall of the army . the words of the act are , without the license of the parliament of england , or councel of state appointed by their authority , or of the captain generall of the parliaments forces . . the time to which this refers , is between the of march . and the . of june . and so it takes in the time between the of march , and the d of august . which is before the making of the act. seventhly . the charge is , that the said christopher love , at the times and places before mentioned , did traiterously , and voluntarily relieve the said sylas titus , and one sterks a scotchman , which then were and yet are under the power of the scottish nation , and in arms against the parliament of england , with moneys , arms , and ammunition . by the act of the . of march . the matters charged herein , are only prohibited , but not made treason . except . . that this charge is mislaid , being charged to be done traiterously . . it is laid to be at the times before mentioned , whereas there are severall times before mentioned ; so as it is uncertaine to which of those times this charge relates . . and of these times sundry of them are laid to be in severall years before the making of the upon act which this charge is grounded . allegations by christopher love touching the matters and proof upon the charge . though i do not conceive any sufficient proof is made of the charges against me , yet i shall be ready to make it appear upon proof . that one of the principall witnesses hath deposed against me upon promise of reward , and upon menace of punishment . that one hath received extraordinary rewards for his deposing . that diverse of the witnesses against me have been by their owne confession detected of contributing of supplies and assistance , sending and receiving letters , contrary to the late acts. that no two lawfull witnesses produced prove any one treasonable fact . that no witnesse doth depose further then concealment , or misprision of treason at the most . christopher love. as this case is stated , we conceive these questions may arise . . whether in this case these be lawfull and sufficient witnesses , as by law is required . . whether here be two lawfull witnesses . . whether any concealment of treason be treason within the late acts. we have not seen any authenticall copies of the charge or evidence ; but upon the copies wee have seen , we humbly conceive fit to tender these matters and exceptions to the consideration of this high court. and wee shall be ready to speak to them , or any of them , or to any other matters arising upon the case , as we shall receive further directions . matthew hales . john archer . thomas waller . after the court had received the precedent exceptions , and were sat in westminster hall , mr. love was commanded to the bar. when mr. love ▪ appeared at the bar , he desired the court that his councell might be heard to these exceptions . and when mr. archer and mr. waller , who were of his councell , appeared in court , the court demamded of them , whether they were of mr. loves councell ? they answered , they did understand they were assigned to be of his councell by the court ; then the atturney generall demanded of them , whether or no they had subscribed the engagement ; they answered , they had not done it ; and spake further to this purpose , that they were by the court assigned to be of mr. loves councell , and were sent for into the court , and in obedience thereunto they had appeared , and were ready to speak , if they might be heard . it was demanded of them by the court , whether or no they would subscribe the engagement ? they answered , that they desired time to consider of it : and so withdrew . after they had withdrawn , mr. love moved the court that mr. hales , another of his councell , might be sent for . — vpon the coming in of mr. hales , the lord president said . l.p. you come at councell for m. love , the gentlemen that were here , are brought into an incapacity of doing him service that way ; we asked them whether they have ingaged : we doubt not you , but tell you the reason why we did it . mr. hales . my lord , i have done it . l. pres . therefore you are assigned . mr. hales . i had very late notice of this businesse , it was saturday night late before i had notice of it , and the next day was not a day to think of those things . yesterday was munday , and the most part of that day i spent in looking over those things that had been ( i think ) presented to your lordship and the court ; we did not know what command your lordship would put upon us , whether you would admit us to speak , and to what you would admit us to speak , and when you would admit us to speak . ●t is impossible ( my lord ) i must deal plainly , i professe it is impossible for me , in a businesse of this great consequence , to undertake to speak any thing for the present , till such time as i know your lordships directions , and this was that we acquainted this gentleman with assoon as ever i saw him , and the first time that ever i saw him , which was but this day . att. gen. i think that mr. hales hath put somewhat under his hand . mr. hales . we have done so . att. gen. nay you must stand single , the other two are set aside , it must be you only , i suppose mr. hales knowes what he is to speak to . mr. hales . truly we know what we are to speak to , but to speak upon such a businesse on such a sudden , when we did not know what directions the court would give , that i could not undertake , and i think master attourney will not presse it upon us , it were a hard case if he should . att. gen. mr. hales knowes as well as any man what is to be done in these cases , none better then himselfe , the court useth not to assign councel to pick flawes , but those that are just exceptions , and the court i● doubtfull too , how they will allow councell to debate them , and stand to the judgement of the court. i suppose he comes to speak to that that the party hath alledged . mr. hales . it is true , we do so : but mr. atturny general knowes likewise , that when matters of law are assigned , that there is some reasonable time , we expect not long , but some reasonable time it assigned also for the parties to prepare themselves , for truly otherwise i should not do that duty i ow to the court and my client , if i should speak ex improviso , in such a manner as i have done ; for the first time i saw any thing of it , was on saturday night , between eight and nine of the clock . l pres . though that was the first sight of this paper , as it is now set down , it was not the first notice you had to be of his councell , but himselfe hath declared it here long agoe , that the former paper was by your advice . mr. hales . no ( my lord ) if he did so , i will plead not guilty . l. pres . i will not say your name , but when he gave us in his paper , before this , the last day , you said it was the advice of your councel . mr. love. not mr. hales . l. pres . then haply we shal ease you a great deal : that that is under your hand , is very short , and we shall ease you of some of that too ; and you know that upon all assignments in the upper bench and common law , when they first open it , they show some causes upon which they wil argue it , and when you have had time already , now shew something that may be worthy of it , and we will consider of it . att gen. before he speak ( my lord ) i desire that he will give it under his hand positively , not queries but positive , that this in his judgement he thinks fit to be matter of law , and to be argued . m. hales . my lord , we think that these things are such . l. pres . then you must upon the first sight open it so far , that it may be your judgement . at. gen. but not suffer it to be debated unless you think it doubtfull . m. hales . we are here assigned councell for him , and if your lordship will please to give us that time that may be convenient for us to doe our duty for him , if not , wee shall doe but your lordship wrong , and our client wrong if we should speak . l. pres . you may have some convenient time , but you must open it now , that we may judge what time is proportionable ; if you will not open it , that this is the point you will argue upon , we can say nothing . m. hales . then the reading of that which we have exhibited to the court , will be as much as possibly i shall be able to do at this time , for we have had no copy of the charge . l pres . nor must have . m. hales . and we have taken a copy at random , according as it hath been offered to us by those that have taken notes , and we have presented upon those notes , and we have applied our selves to m. atturney for a copy of the charge , and he conceived that it was not fit for him to do it without direction of the court ; but for a copy of the charge when exceptions are taken , it is usuall to have it granted ; and for us to speak and spend your lordships time upon matters that are contained in a charge , whereof for my own part i never heard , and which is usuall upon excceptions offered to be granted , it would be very — l. pres . it is an excellent thing to speak to men of understanding ; did you ever know an inditement in this nature , a copy of it delivered upon the prisoners prayer ? m. hales . yea , i have known it very often . l. pres . he shall , as his memory serves him , speak to the substance , but to have a copy of the charge , i take it , you have not known . m. hales . thus far i have known it , i have been commanded to be of counsell with persons that have been impeached of treason by the parliament , i know that the archbishop of canterbury , when hee was impeached of treason , had a copy of his charge , that i know he had ; i know this is the usuall course , that if a person takes exceptions to a matter contained in an inditement , though it is true , he shall not have the copy of the whole inditement , yet he shall have a copy of so much whereupon his exception growes ; that hath been done , and will not be denied ; but for the other matter , i know that in the archbishop of canterburies case there was a copy of the whole charge granted , and the like was done in the case of the lord strafford . at. gen. i shall give that answer a little more then i did , parliamentary proceedings are no rule for other courts to walk by ; besides ( my lord ) you sit here upon a known published law , and the offence charged is against those laws : i believe m. hales well remembers , that both my lord of straff●rds case , and the archbishop of canterburies case were both of them for many severall facts severall times a long time committed , which severall facts being judged by parliament , were judged to be treason not against any setled positive law : and for straffords case , you know how the judgement , at last was given by act of parliament , king , lords and commons . and for the archbishop of canterburies case , you know what the severall complaints against him were , many of them not treason , but so many of them together , that in parliament they thought fit to judge him guilty of treason ; but those priviledges are not to be paralleld , he knowes very well it was not against such , and such , and such a law , to make those offences treason . having given thus much favour , i may say , to the prisoner , that he may by memory exhibit his exceptions , he hath done it , if you judge that those exceptions are worth the debating , be worthy of it , you may ( as m. hales saith ) give directions for so much to be given him , otherwise ( for my part ) i did never give it unto any ; but those that have been in my place before , did never give it but by immediate warrant from the king , or the parliament now , but for so much as the court thinks fit , for so much as concerns the exceptions . sir tho. witherington . for that that m. hales objects to the inditement , it stands with a great deal of justice ; for if a prisoner layes hold of part of an inditement , and say there is a mistake in it , there is reason it should be so , because the court must judge it whether it be so or not , therefore there is necessity of it that there should be a copy of so much ; but i think he never knew that all the inditement was , but that part , and that is of necessity for the court , that they may see whether the exceptions accord with the inditement or no ; if there be any exception to an inditement , if that exception remains not as a doubt or question , there shall be no copy of so much of the inditement given : if he shall raise a doubt that there is any doubt in law , or any question and variance between the acts and the charge , if he shall raise any such doubt , then i think according to the old law he may have that part of the charge ; but we desire he may raise some doubt to the court. m. hales . my lord , we have raised the doubts , and we are ready to deliver in those that we conceive to be exceptions to the charge , if we be over-ruled in them , we have no more to say ; but if your lordship upon the view of these things we have offered , think them worthy to be spoken to before your lordship , then surely that is agreeable with that very rule which the councell of the state is pleased to state ; that is , that in case we alledge that which the court shall thinke fit for us to debate before them , that then we may have that whereby it may appear whether we debate upon that which is , or is not . at. gen. m hales saith he hath given them in , but i have seen none of them , my lord . l. pres . whether their memory be perfect or imperfect , that we shall help you withall , and then i will tell you what you were best do , for time goes away : we will before you take it , take the severall statutes and the charge , and your exceptions , and compare them altogether before you , and you shall except to every one as you go . at. gen. i desire the exceptions may stand as they are . l. pres . i , but hee shall see whether there be any materiall variance between the notary and the charge . at. gen. that notary was upon favour too , mr. love will acknowledge it . mr. love. i do with all thankfulness acknowledge it , my lord . at. gen. i desire it may be no president for after-times . the clerk. if you please , read your exceptions . m. hales . my lord , we begin with the first , and these are the exceptions : we take it that charge is grounded upon the act of the th . of july , . and we take some exceptions to that first part of the charge , that is , concerning what offences shall be adjudged treason . l. pres . read your exceptions , and then you shall hear the charge . m. hales . our exceptions are these ; first , that whereas the words of the act are , that if any person shall maliciously , and advisedly plot , contrive , or indeavour to stir up , or raise forces against the present government , or for the subversion or alteration of it , that the words maliciously or advisedly , are left out of the charge , which we conceive are materiall words . at. gen. read. m. barnard the clerk. that he the said christopher love , as a false traitor and enemy to this common-wealth , and free-state of england , and out of a traiterous and wicked design to stir up a new and bloody war , and to raise insurrections , seditions , and rebellions within this nation , did severall dayes and times , in the several years of our lord , . . . . at london and in divers other places within this commonwealth of england , and else-where , together with william drake late of london mercer , henry jermin late of london esquire , henry piercy late of london esquire , richard graves late of london esquire , edward massy late of london esq ; john gibbon late of london gentleman , &c. and other their complices yet unknown , did traiterously and maliciously combine and confederate themselves together , and plot , contrive , and indeavour . at. gen. what say you m. hales ? m. hales . now we find what the inconvenience is of coming to put in our exceptions , when we have not a cleer copy of the charge , and that was the cause why we did subjoyn this , that in case any mistake arise by mistake of the copies , that we may amend : it it is true , we find maliciously is in . at. gen. traiterously will be enough . m. hales . i think not , that is ove● ; for if it be maliciously alledged , that is over . then the next thing we except to , is , he traiterously combined , confederated , and complotted together ; it is true , there is plot in it , but there wants the words contrive and indeavour , but that is not the principall matter wee stand upon . the clerk. they are in . m. hales . then that is answered too . the next exception that we take to the charge is , that the act upon which this part of the charge is grounded , sayes , that he must manifest it by an overt act , by an open deed ; now we say , there is ( as we conceive ) nothing charged upon him in pursuance of this act , that is , there is no overt , or open deed laid in the charge , for the words of the act are so , that if any man shall maliciously plot , contrive , and endeovour to stir up , or raise forces against the present government , and shall declare the same by open deed , that then every such offence shall be treason . at. gen. if m. hales hath read the copy of the charge as it was taken , i think he findes divers of them in the charge of open acts . m. hales . the business is not whether there be open deeds , but whether they are applied to this act , or be substantive charges of themselves . at. gen. i would ask him , whether that open act must be in the inditement , or in the evidence ? m. hales . in the inditement ; it must be expresly laid in the inditement , or els it is no good inditement . at. gen. but for that , that we may not dispute upon those things , my lord , there are the severall charges against the severall acts ; there are severall open acts that are laid in the inditement , and ( i think ) if he look upon it , he will find that they are laid to every one of them , and relate and refer to every one of them . s. tho. wither there is writing of letters , contributing of money , and receiving of messages . mr. hales . that will appear by the subsequent parts of the charge . l. pres . the subsequent parts of the charge will make that appear , for if he did lend mony , &c. if they be really there , we shall hear it by and by . m. hales . i take it , that the law is very plain , that the act must be mentioned in the indictment . at. gen. but we will not debate that when we are expresse in the thing , we are not so tyed to form , as to pin them to every word of it . the clerk. and further to carry on and accomplish the said wicked practice and design ; he the said christopher love , divers dayes and times between the th of march . and the first of june in the year of our lord . at london and other places as aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously give , hold , use and maintain correspondency and intelligence by letters , messages , instructions , and otherwise . l. pres . these are open acts . mr. hales . then favour us in this , we take it that between this , and the first charge , there comes a particular charge , that relates to charles stewart , that is intervenient between the first charge , and this that is now read , or else we are mis-informed by the prisoner ; and if there be so , then we think our exceptions will take place . s. tho. wither . it is all contained in one indictment , and then that that explains the overt act followes afterwards , as a distinct thing in the indictment , and so it was in my lord cobhams case in that indictment , and in my lord of essex his case . l. pres . he may make overtures . m. hales . we confesse it ; but we supose it very certain , that both as this act is penn'd , and as the act of — is penn'd , which are much at one , as to the manner of penning them , there is of necessity an overt act to be laid to make good that general charge ; that , we conceive , will be plain ; and that is admitted and agreed by the lord cook in his collections of the pleas of the crown , fol. . . where he saith , the indictment of the earl of somerset , in the time of edward the th , and all other of the like form , were against law , because he said , that he did not follow the words of the act , and that he did it per apertum factum , and shews not what that open deed was ; that was not a good indictment , for the fact must be set forth in the indictment ; that must be done . then the question is , whether this be so done here or no ? we conceive by this charge it is not so done here , upon this ground ; we say , there follows after this a particular charge concerning his promotion of charles stewart ; and then subsequent to that , there follows this that the court hath now read ; we say , that in this case here is not a charge of an overt act , neither by the one nor by the other ; there is not a charge by the former , because that is a distinct treason made distinctly treasonable by another act ; and therfore that which is made a distinct charge of treason by another act , shall not be an overt act within the former : that is one thing we say . and another thing we say is this , that in this case , the second , that is that which the court hath been pleased to direct to be read to us concerning his holding correspondence , that shall not be an overt act relating to the first charge ; for it is an uncertain relation : for there be two designes mentioned before , the one is a designe contained in the first charge , the other a designe contained in the second charge , for the promoting of charles stewart ; and we say , the third shall not be coupled up to the former , because it is a distinct charge of treason in it self , and because it is uncertain to which it relates ; for it refers not more to the first charge then to the second concerning the promoting of charles stewart , that is called the prince of wales . l. pres . for this , i take it for the present , that the charge is founded upon four statutes , if he lay the offence against the first , second , third , and fourth , and he shall come and conclude it without relation to any particular of these treasons , he did thus and thus by letters and correspondencies , that will relate to them every one , though it come but in the conclusion ; and though the statutes be various , yet the indictment is but one , and he may put in this of the overtures in one place sufficiently , to be a sufficient overture to every one ; and therefore though to one of them there should be no overture in it at all , but valet ut valere potest , it will hang upon so much , as it will bear an overt act , and then you will not deny but that those words are overtures . m. hales . it is true , they are so , but yet still we conceive this third , which we call the third charge , that is concerning holding correspondence , the third or fourth , i cannot tell which it is , but it is one of them ; we say , that that is not an overt act applied to the first charge : when we come to the substance of that charge as it stands by it self , then our exceptions will rise upon it , as it stands singly by it self ; but we conceive that shall not be a supplementall charge to make good that first charge , that is concerning endeavouring to subvert the state as it stands established , it shall not be used as an overt act to make good the first charge ; when we come to that particular charge , that is concerning the maintaining of correspondence , whether it be a good substantive charge of it self , then we shall offer our exceptions to that ; but in the mean while we are but upon debate of the first , whether the first containeth such a charge , as by the act of the th . of july , . is required . at. gen. my lord , we are heard before you concerning it , mr. hales will find that after all these lawes are repeated , and after all his offences against those laws are repeated , it is concluded that all are against the severall acts of parliament , in such cases made and provided ; if mr. hales wil single them , ●he impeachment doth not , but relates to all of them ; and , i think , that in this way of impeachment we are not tyed to those very nice and strict formal rules upon indictments , but if substance doth appear , it doth appear to you , my lord , that in substance the acts are pursued , and that upon the whole impeachments there are , even this that is required , the expression of an open deed , an ove●t act , those are laid , and it will be acknowledged by mr. hales , that they are in themselves sufficient , being thus exprest and concluded , that those severall practices and designs , and treasons , are against the form of the severall statutes , in that case made and provided , not in relation to the . of july , nor the d of august , but to all of them ; and i beleeve that all of these facts , all of this treason , all of this design , whether with the scotch nation , or members of the scotch nation , or those adhering to the scots nation , had all but one foundation , the subversion of this present government , that was the foundation and treason of the whole , that was it that was intended ; for to bring one in , and not to cast out the other , would have done no good ; but upon the whole , that was the treason ; and upon all these circumstances and open deeds , and designs , the sum , though it be a treason to hold correspondence , though it be a treason to promote charles stewart , though it be a treason to do other things , yet the treason is in this , the scots nation to come in with intent to subvert the government , charles stewart to be made king to subvert the government : so that the grand work , at heart , at root , was the subversion of the present government ; and as for that , i wish heartily for mr. love's sake , there were not so many open deeds exprest by him . s. tho. wither . mr. hales speaks of the charge , the words are these ; and further to carry on and accomplish the said traiterous and wicked practice and design , he , the said christopher love ( now this i take to be the overt act ) divers dayes and times between the . of march , and the first of june at london and divers other places ; as aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously , use , and hold correspondence and intelligence by letters ( those are open acts ) messages , instructions and otherwise , to the prejudice of the commonwealth ; and these are laid within the time , and not a distinct charge , as mr. hales would infer : but they do directly set forth an overt act done by mr. love. mr. hales . is it your lordships pleasure i should reply any thing , because i come utterly unprovided for it , i must professe . at. gen. we may give him this , and one or two more . l. pres . go on master hales , if you have that that is materiall for another reply , do ; but take this , master hales , i take it very strong both in grammer and logick too , as well as in law , that when all the whole charge is radically and fundamentaly but one treason , though there be many branches of it , the charge hath knit them altogether , and made but one act of so many complicated treasons as here are , and when he comes to the latter end , if some of them were de facto , not by an overt deed published , yet if he come and prove that it was so done by the proofs , that there was correspondence , and these things de facto done , and that charge de facto done , you cannot break it there , to say that this fact did not reach to all ; for if there be any one , it is sufficient ; but here it is to all , even to that one that you speak of . at. gen. my lord i shall read a word to mr. hales , al which treasons and traiterous and wicked practises and designs of him , the said christopher love , were , and are to the apparent hazard of the publick peace of this commonwealth and free state , parliament and people of england ( mr. hales findeth not these in any indictment ) and to the manifest breach , contempt , and violation of the lawes of this land , and contrary to the form of divers statutes and acts of parliament in such case made and provided , in generall , my lord. m. hale . we conceive , under favour , and we think that it cannot be denyed , that such a conclusion will not serve the turn . at. gen. no , not in an indictment . mr. hale . if there be a substantial part of the charge omitted , that ought to be alledged in fact , it is not the conclusion , that contrary to the form of the statutes in this case made and provided , will help it . my lord , ( i come unprovided ) the case of my lord dyer , that known case upon an indictment for recusancy , or for a wilfull or knowing harbouring of a jesuite , or priest : saith my lord dyer , it is not enough to say , he did harbour him contrary to the form of the statute , ▪ but hee must say , he did it knowingly : he must alledge and pursue the substantiall words of the act of parliament . and so again , an indictment for absenting from church ; it is not enough to say , he did it contrary to the form of the statute : but that he did it obstinately . therefore that generall conclusion , that this was to the hazard of the commonwealth ( it is true , it is an ill thing for any man to do such a thing that is to the hazard of the commonwealth ) but those words serve not the statute neither : and then to say at the conclusion , contrary to the form of divers statutes , that will not help it , under favour , in case of an indictment . then mr. atturney makes a difference between the case of an indictment , and this charge . i conceive that in this case there is no difference ; the matter is the same , the one concerns the life of a person , and so doth the other ; the offence is the same , the one is a charge of high treason , and so is the other . it is true , those formalities that concern the manner of the triall , those ( it is true ) are laid by , because here is no jury to come before your lordship ; but your lordship tryeth upon the hearing of the testimony , and according to things alledged and proved : but for other matters that especially are substantially required by the act of parliament , wee conceive that those shall be supplyed no more by an intendment in case of a charge before your lordship , then in case of an indictment for treason : to this i shall say no more , but leave a word or two to your lordships judgment . for the other thing ( we are still but upon the first charge , the first article ) it hath first of all been insisted upon , that an overt act is not necessary to be alledged , because supplyed by the words of the conclusion , contrary to the form of the statute : to that i have answered , i conceive , it is not , nor can it be supplyed , because it is a substantiall thing in the very words and bowels of the act , and cannot be supplyed by a generall conclusion . then it hath been said by sir thomas withrington the states serjeant , that in this case those subsequent matters and charges shall be an overt act within the statute ; that is that which hee hath read to you ; it is in the fourth article ( as i take it ) that christopher love , divers times between the of march . and the first of june . did traiterously and malicously hold and use correspondence and intelligence by letters and messages . but that cannot be ; i may say it , that is not a sufficient manifestation of an overt act , because there do precede it these particular charges of treason within particular acts of parliament ; why then , if so be ( to maintain his designe , for the carrying on of his designe aforesaid ) this should be said to relate to the first designe , why not to the second designe , of promoting charls stewart to be king ? and why not to the third designe ? so that where there are three severall designes before , all made treason by the acts of parliament , that cannot be an overt act to make good the first part of the charge , with submission to your lordships judgment . and then another thing wee say , that this charge which sir thomas would carry up to the first charge , and make it as an inforcing and overt act within the first charge , that cannot be , for this other reason ; because it is charged as a traiterous distinct act in him . now we have this learning delivered by sir edward cook in his comment upon this , in the yeer of edward the third : that is , where there are severall acts made treason ; the one is an act for leavying of warr : now there the case was treason against the person of the king , queen , prince , &c. that one part shall not be an overt act in case of indictment , shall not be construed as an overt act for the making good of another part ; because where all are made equally traiterous , and all are charged as equally traiterous , wee think , with submission , those parts shall not be made an overt act to another treason . so when here is a treason made by the act of the of july , and another by a subsequent act , that which is charged as a treason in the subsequent act , shall not be said to be an overt act for the making good of the former : if the former be not a treason able to maintain and support it self , this subsequent act shall not serve as a bolster to uphold it , and to supply that which is laid as a distinct treason of it self . now these are the three things we insist upon : first , that an overt act is necessary to be laid . secondly , that it is not supplyed by the generall conclusion , nor can it be . next of all , that this act that is here laid to be done , traiterously to hold correspondence and intelligence , it refers no more to the first designe , then to the second or to the third designe , which are charged as three distinct treasons ; and this is charged as a distinct and positive treason of it self , and therefore shall not be carried over as a supplement to another . att. gen. we granting that an overt act is necessary to be express'd ; grant it should be so , but no more but in evidence : and then granting in the next place , that the generall conclusion will not be sufficient to maintain it , when it is requisite an open deed should be express'd . then for the third , i cannot be of his judgment in this way of impeachments ; but as we see one person may commit four or five treasons , and one act may be an offence against four or five acts of parliament ; and this is the truth : for where the severall acts are repeated , that ( my lord ) are those lawes against which this treason , and this treasonable practice and designe is laid to be ; then follows the severall enumerations of those practices , designes , and open acts of his now applyed by us . but mr. hales would take them and apply them to one singly ; but i observe to your lordship , that those open acts of his are offences by an open act against the severall acts of parliament ; but it serves his turn for his client to apply them so : but i hope you will not apply them so ; but when they come between the offences , and the overt acts follow it , and the conclusion upon the whole , that all those traiterous and wicked practices and designes are against the severall acts of parliament : and if there be an open act so express'd in the impeachment , that in law is an open act , suppose it should be required to be express'd ; if there be an open act , then i hope you will be satisfied when it hath been well proved ; if it be express'd in the indictment an open act , that i hope will satisfie your judgments and consciences ; especially when open acts shall appear to you to be an offence against the acts of parliament . i shall leave this to your judgment , and trouble you no further ; and you will finde in its place whether it be requisite or not . l. pres . that that mr. hales said , if it were a thing of absolute necessity in an indictment , then the conclusion will not help ; if the thing were of absolute necessity there charged , and not charged contra formam statutis , will not do it : but if i understand it right , it is fully laid in this charge , that he did by open and overt acts do the thing ; it is laid so ; the words of open act are not , but the value ; that is , that he did by writing , by words , by messages , by money ; and these are really overt acts , though hee did not call these overt acts ; these are laid fully in the charge : and then , if they be laid fully in the charge , and we satisfied in the full proof of that charge , that we have heard overt acts to maintain it , then i think this cannot come within any of those cases , that when an essentiall thing is left out of an indictment , there the conclusion will not help : this i conceive so far . then the next , what method or order this can be , by setting down the statutes , and then withall these overt acts of letters , of messages , of money , will reach to every one of the qualities , that these treasons are manifested by this act ; but if it were a treason of such a nature , that none of these could reach to the manifestation of it , then you say well ; but when these words reach to the manifestation of every charge laid in the charge , then it is effectuall and reall , and the conclusion is sufficient . att. gen. before he goes to the next , i shall crave your direction in it ; for i professe , my lord , to you , that i in drawing the impeachments , take not my self to be so strictly tyed to the forms of indictments in letters and syllables ; and the forms i have taken and do take , are those that have pass'd heretofore , and i follow them ; and till i receive your direction to the contrary , i take not my self bound but to expresse the substance of that which is laid to his charge , by which hee may know his offence , and give an answer : but to formes , and quiddities , and niceties , i conceive i was not bound to that . mr. hales . i presse not forms , nor quiddities , nor niceties in this businesse . the next is , concerning the charge of promoting the prince of wales . att. gen. no , there is no such thing in it , your copy is amisse again ; read it . mr. hales . our exception is this , ( wee have been but upon the first all this while , i take it so ) the next is , that he did traiterously publish the son of the late king of england , to be king of england ( meaning this commonwealth ) without the consent of the people in parliament first had or signified by ordinance to that purpose . i think wee shall not trouble your lordship much with that ; for if that be as our copie is ; it is true , it is not well laid ; but if it be never so well laid , i conceive , as i am informed , there is nothing of that endeavoured to be proved . att. gen. that we leave to the court , mr. hales . mr. hales . then the next is , that to accomplish the said traiterous and wicked designe , christopher love did at severall dayes in the yeers aforesaid , traiterously and wickedly advise the scots . our exception to that is this , there is a treasonable assistance charged in some of the yeers that were before the making of the act that did prohibit it . at. gen. and afterwards too , m. hales . mr. hales . it layes it in some of the yeers before the making of the act , and that is sufficient to invalidate this charge . the clerk. and further to carry on and accomplish the said traiterous and wicked practice and designe , he the said christopher love , severall dayes and times in the respective yeers aforesaid , at london and divers other places within this commonwealth of england , and elsewhere as aforesaid , together with the said william drake , henry jermin , and others their complices aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously invite , aid , and assist the scots , being forreigners and strangers , to invade this commonwealth of england , and hath adhered to the forces raised by the enemies of the parliament and commonwealth aforesaid , and keepers of the liberties of england as aforesaid . at. gen. you will finde this in a statute before this . mr. hales . not before the of july . and then your charge is repugnant , you charge us for an offence which is precedent to the statute . at. gen. for that , you go and take them and pick them ; but we lay them all together : the●e were treasons he committed in . and that which i pitch upon still is this ( that mr. hales thought was waved ) that this man did not promote the interest of charles stewart late king , or that he had not endeavoured a subversion of this government ; i lay that against this act made in . then by consequence to maintain that , he did it to promote his interest , and to subvert the government ; and there was a law in that did inhibit that ; there is a law inhibits the calling in of strangers ; and it follows by that , that he who calls in strangers may promote the interest of charles stewart too ; and that foundation is to this purpose , that he did promote him to have been king of england : and you know what he express'd to you , what tenderness of conscience he had to take care that he might not go elsewhere . mr. hales . if it be so , then we must desire , that part of the charge may be read . at. gen. i have not charged them , nor untill i receive command , shall i vary from what i have received formerly , that i shall charge this to be against this , and that against that ; but i have laid down the acts of parliament that have made things treason , and the offences severally , and upon the whole conclude that these are treasons against severall acts of parliament severally ; if one or all together serve turn , i hold it well enough . if you put me to every one of them particularly , i must have more time , and better clerks to draw the inditements . mr. hales . stil the same objection meeteth ( with submission to the court and mr. atturney , the same objection meets ) with them ; we say then , he will make this a kinde of an additionall charge to the first , or to the second , or to both ; but we know not to which . att. gen. yes . mr. hales . but we say that that is not sufficient , upon these reasons , because it is a charge of treason in it self , and therfore shall not be made an additionall and supplementall charge to make out another . and then we say , that this is uncertainly charged , whether you will make it supplementall to the first charge of treason , that is , the endeavouring of the subversion of the commonwealth ; or to the second charge of treason , which is a distinct charge of treason , of the promotion of the interest of charles stewart . att. gen. i cannot divide them . l. pres . are not these as perfect as before ? doth not the subversion of this commonwealth promote the interest of charls stewart ? and doth not the promotion of charls stewart subvert the interest of this commonwealth ? if he hath laid it , that he did both of these by assuming it , by a double or multiplyed act , and all these multiplyed acts are but one subversion ; if i subvert it by one , or by acts , both of them are the same in nature ; for the subversion of the one , is the bringing in of the other ; and the bringing in of the one is the subversion of the other ; and so they are relatives fully one to the other , and there cannot be more express'd in the charge then this : and notwithstanding all these acts , though that act hath made the treason , cannot it be by another act ? you may prosecute by vertue of this subsequent act , any thing that was understood to be generall treason by the law of the land. mr. hales . my lord , this is that we insist upon . it is true , we do conceive , though the promotion of the interest of cha. stewart is not consistent with the preservation of the interest of the commonwealth ; yet every destruction of the interest of the commonwealth is not therfore a promotion of the interest of charles stewart ; for then there could be no treason against the commonwealth , but it must be a promotion of the others interest . now there may be a treason against the commonwealth without the promotion of the others interest . i urge it to this purpose , to make it appear , that they are severall charges bottomed upon severall acts , and therefore the reference here made to promote the designe aforesaid , is uncertain to which it shall relate ; it may fall out the partie may be guilty upon the first article ; it may fall out , he is not guilty upon the second article , and then it is uncertain to which article it relates , that hee is guilty of , or not guilty of : and here may be the consequence of it , then you will make a treason , which to this third clause is a substantive , and contained in it self , to be an overt act to another charge of treason , and that you cannot do : you cannot make a treason which is so charged , to be an overt act , or exposition , or a declaration of that which is contained in the former , like that case i instanced in before , of the of edward the d , that no man shall go about to destroy the person of the king , nor to raise war against his people : so that we use it not in any other reference , but onely to explain and bring the reason of that ancient law to this law : in that case a man cannot charge the overt act of going about to destroy his person , which is a distinct treason of it self , to be an overt act to the charge of levying war , which is another distinct treason : and if he alledg , such a one did go about to destroy the prince , or the consort of the king , or the king , and to make the levying of war to be an overt act to it , this he cannot do ; because though it is true , it might be an overt act to it , yet notwithstanding , it being made a distinct treason , it cannot be an overt act to another treason : and so here , this very assisting and inviting of forces is made a distinct treason ; and so if you take it substantively , it is insufficiently laid ; and if relatively , you may not do so , because it is a treason of it self , and shall not be brought in relation to another treason laid before it . att. gen. for that , i hope mr. hales will leave me to that liberty i have , that is , that if one act be an offence against severall acts , i may aggravate it so , as to make him know it is so ; and i take it for an aggravation of his offence , when he hath offended against so many several lawes , which he hath done ; and that i may have liberty to say so , though perhaps that subversion of this government is not in every respect a promoting of the interest of charls stewart ; but the subversion of this government , as it is here laid in this inditement , is a promotion of the interest of charles stewart : and so it is here . and i have done now with that . l. pres . then ( mr. hales ) i will add a word , because that you did put the case of a man destroying the person of a king , and levying of war ; if it be laid , those very acts , if they be laid as a continued , or a medium , or an enterprize , that he had taken up a war to destroy the person of the king ; those words in one sense , if it had been laid solitarily by it self , and destroying the king in another ; but if he shewed that by levying of war he endeavoured it , then the denomination is from the end in that place ; and though they be two treasons substantively , yet when they are laid as one continued act , they are but one : and so it is in this case ; all these , though there are several statutes , and several treasons , these multiplyed acts make up but one compleat in the conclusion : if there want one of these , if there be sufficient in the other , it is treason enough , and too much too ( i would it were not so ) if they be laid in subordination , as all these are , every one of them further to promote this , and to promote that ; so they are laid in promotion of it to every one ; and then they are contiguous , and depend one upon another , and are substantive , and so substantiall , as that they may be relatives one to another , and so are these . att. gen. the next , mr. hales . m. hales . the next is the charge ; and that is , concerning holding correspondence by letters & messages , with charls stewart and the late queen his mother ; we say , that this part of the charge is ill laid also ; it is laid in nature of a felony by the act , and laid to be done traiterously in the charge ; and that is a substantial ( not a meer formality , but a substantial ) mistake ; for if so be a woman be indited of petty treason because it is proditoria , yet in truth it amounts but to felony ; now in case where she is an accessary to a felony , the inditement is naught : if a man be accused that he did traiterously such an action , which in it self amounts but to a felony , that charge is naught ; and so it is here , it is mislaid : for by the act of the of march , the matters therein charged are not made treason , at most but capital ; but we think it only prohibited , and then we say it is an uncertain charge : and so it is , under favour ; for though the act saith , no man shal hold correspondence by letters , messages , or otherwise ; yet when we come to inform upon it , or to indite upon it , it is not enough to say , he held correspondence by letters , messages , or otherwise ; but if you will ground your deed upon that act , you must shew what that otherwise is , and that is the exception to that part of the charge . the clerk. and further to carry on the said traiterous and wicked practice and designe , he the said christopher love divers dayes and times , between the the of march , . and the first of june , at london and other places , as aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously give , hold , use , and maintain correspondence and intelligence by letters , messages , instructions and otherwise . mr. hales . or otherwise was our notes , then that is out of doors , but our exception is , that it is alledged to be done traiterously . l. pres . and the statute saith it shall be treason . m. hales . no it saith not so , the act layes it only in nature of a felony , and in the charge it is laid to be done traiterously , and so the charge is mislaid . at. gen. i confesse it is expresse so in the . of march . and it is not said what the offence is , but i conceive in the first place , that by the law of england , be that holds correspondence with a traitor , will go very near it , my lord ; and the● i humbly conceive , that still he going upon the first act , it is laid to be with charles stewart , and th● queen and councell with him ( i think ) it is a promoting of his interest ; he to hold a correspondence with him , whom the parliament hath said , you shall in no case promote his interest . mr. hales . i must be bold still a little , to crave mr. atturneys favour , to reply upon him in this kind of way , for i have not had time . at. gen. you have had more time then i , for i heard not of it till now . mr. hales . we say , the charge is not good because it is made felony only by the act , and laid in the charge to be done traiterously ; and then we say , that charge is uncertain to what designe it relates ; if it relates to the businesse concerning the promoting of stewart's interest , if it be so , we conceive it is not proved ; for the proof i mention not , but that is not insisted upon , that master love did promote the interest of charles stewart , contrary to the act of parliament , that ( i think ) is not insisted upon , att. gen. o yes . mr. hales . i conceive , no. att. gen. i conceive very much otherwise , mr. hales . mr. hales . i desire that charge once more may be read concerning the promoting the interest of charles stewart . the clerk. and the better to carry on and accomplish the said traiterous and wicked practice and design , he the said christopher love , with the said william drake , &c. ( since the death of charles stewart , late king of england , who for his notorious treasons , and other tyrannies and murders by him committed , in the late unnaturall and cruell warrs , was by authority derived from the parliament , justly condemned to death , and executed ) severall dayes and times , in the respective years aforesaid , at london aforesaid , and sundry other places within this commonwealth and since this nation was setled in the way of a commonwealth or a free state , as aforesaid , did traiterously declare , publish , and promote charles stewart , eldest son to the late king , to be king of england . mr. hales . we are informed , that there is nothing of any particular act of his , concerning that ; but we have nothing to do with the fact , but we conceive that no subsequent thing by way of construction or interpretation , shall make a publishing and promoting in such a manner as this is , it must be such a thing as expresly publisheth and promotes him to be the chief magistrate of england , according to the words of the act , and not by way of dilation ; we say , this is not a thing to be applyed to serve the turne , upon this reason ; we say , that the holding of correspondence and intelligence with charles stewart , eldest son to the late king , it cannot be coupled on to the promotion of the interest of charles stewart to be king of england , seeing that is but by way of interpretation to bring it within the first part of the act. att. gen. for that i shall crave your direction . l. pres . it is not interpretative , but positive . att. gen. but i shall shall crave your pleasure , whether i shall in my impeachments afterwards put in all my evidence ; what is charged , and evidence proves , that you will judge upon i hope . mr. hales . then the next part of the charge , and that is the fifth , that he did hold correspondence with divers persons of the scots nation ; our exception to that is plain , we conceive , that part of it is not well laid neither , it is not laid in pursuance of the act of parliament , as our notes are , this is that we say , that it is not expresly alledged , that they were persons residing in scotland , as our notes are . att. gen. like enough so , sir. the clerk. and further to carry on and accomplish the said traiterous and wicked design , he the said christopher love , severall dayes and times in the respective years aforesaid , at london aforesaid , and divers other places within this commonwealth of england and elsewhere , as aforesaid , did traiterously and maliciously hold and maintain , correspondence and intelligence with divers persons of the scots nation , viz. with the earle of argile , lowden , louthian , bayly , belcarris , and divers other persons if the scots , and other nations , whom he well knew to adhere to the scots nation in this war against the parliament and commonwealth of england . mr. hales . this we conceive , is not a good charge , for the words of the act of the d of august , upon which this is grounded , are , that no man shall hold correspondence with the scots nation residing in scotland . att. gen. you were best read further , mr. hales . then mr. hales read part of that act , beginning at these words , [ be it enacted , ordained , and declared by this present parliament ] and ending with these words , [ without the allowance , license , &c. mr. hales . it is true , there is no residing ; for that yet comes not home , we conceive , to part of the charge ; there are two parts of the charge , the one , that he did maintain correspondence with divers of the scottish nation , and with divers other persons of divers other nations , whom he well knew to adhere to the scots nation in this warr against the parliament . as to the first , that is out of doors ; then here is no full charge of holding any correspondence with any of the scots nation ; for that part of the charge rests upon this , that it must be with holding of correspondence with any such persons as are residing in scotland , and with any other person residing there . then as to the other part — l. pres . it is a continued speech , not with the scots nor any other . mr. hales . then here is another thing in it , that it is not averred that such correspondence and intelligence was held without the license of parliament . att. gen. you are mistaken in that , your notes are not true . the clerk. and he the said christopher love , within the times , and at the places before mentioned , did traiterously assist , incourage , without the speciall license of the councell of state , or parliament , or captain generall of the parliaments forces . m. hales . we say then , these are two distinct charges , and grounded upon two distinct parts of an act , but there is this more in it , which we conceive is not to be answered , with submission , under favour , it is said he did it within the times aforesaid , the times that are aforesaid , are between the of march , and june ; now this act whereby this is made traiterous or treasonable , takes not place till the . of aug. , so that it might be done within the times aforesaid , that is , between the of march , and june , and yet not contrary to the act of the d of august , which was s. tho. wither . we lay it within all the times aforesaid , and , i suppose , the matter of the evidence hath told you the times , which now we are not to dispute . mr. hales . whatsoever is done between the of march , and the d of august , is not done contrary to the act of the d of august , upon which act this charge is grounded ; there is a time between them , and between the time of exhibiting of these articles : whatsoever is said to be done between the of march , and the exhibiting the articles is not said to be done after the d of aug. ; for if it be done between the of march and the d of aug. it is done within the time aforesaid , that is , between the of march and june , and yet not done contrary to the act of the d of august , because done before the act came forth . att. gen. though mr. hales will not consent to it , we will strike out the . of march , and then he will not deny but that is good enough , with that striken out , before the first of june . whether it be not good enough , and no time laid before it ? mr. hales . no indeed , it is not good enough . at. gen. why not ? it is after the offence committed . mr. hales . because it may as well be before the act as after the act. at. gen. if we lay it after the offence committed , i suppose it is well enough , and the wisest will think so ; lay it to be the first of june ; suppose it were in september before , it is good enough . mr. hales . if you lay it upon the first of june , it is a year , before it is not good enough . att gen. that that mr. hales insists upon , he may say it is before the first of june so long since , but in a just and reasonable intendment , when we insist upon that law that makes it treason to hold it after such a time , and we say that before the first of june . he did commit treason in holding correspondence , and sending provisions of war before that law , though it were before the second of august , . that were not against that law. m. hales . still we say , that contrary to the form of the statute , or contrary to the forme of the law , which is but the conclusion , shall not supply that which is materiall to be alledged : now when here is an act laid to be done , certainly it is materiall , to alledge that it is done in such a time as may appeare to be after the time of the prohibition of it to be done ; the prohibition runs to the second of august , . that no man after the fifth of that august shall doe such an act ; then it must be laid to be an act done after the fifth of that august ; but it is not laid so here , but laid so as may be intended to bee done before the fifth of august ; for here is a time laid between the . of march , . and the time of the exhibiting the articles which is in june , . and that he did this within the time aforesaid ; now he that saith he did it the . of march , saith he did it within the time aforesaid , and yet saith not that is within the act. sir tho. withrington . we have given an answer to that , we have laid it within , and without the time , that it is within the time , the witnesse doth prove it , and m hales speaks not to what we have proved , and cannot speak to it . mr. hales the proof shall never supply the insufficiency of the charge ; for we may as intirely offer you an exception to this matter , after you have heard the proof , as before you have heard it ; for it stands now as upon the charge singly , so that it shall not be supplyed out of matter that appears in the proof , but it must be considered whether the charge can supply it self or not ; for that that is alledgable against the charge before the proof made , is alledgable as well afterwards ; if it were not good before the proof , the proof shall not be supplementall to it ; for upon that reason , if an inditement did want time , or certainty , then after the party were heard upon his defence , it might be said when this exception was taken to the inditement , all this might appear upon the evidence , but that will not supply the defect of the indictment . at. gen. i am sure wee have laid it late enough , the first of june , . before that time , and mr. hales his exception is still upon that way of proceedings upon indictments ; he must have that positive and strict certainty in it in each particular , i must give it that answer still , that if you do in these cases put me to it , to express every particular circumstance of every particular fact , and every particular time , and that it must conduce in the conclusion of it , i must make you impeachments that will not be fit for you to read nor hear ; but under favour , if that it contains in it in this way of charge that convenient certainty , that conveniency that may put the prisoner to the knowledge of it , and to prove it ; for this relates not singly , for if i should go that way m. hales hath laboured to draw me , that is to take every one of these severally , and that i must make a distinct charge upon one , and upon the other , and a distinct evidence upon one , and upon the others i conceive these run quite through all the laws every one of them ; had i confined this now between the . of august . and june . then what had become of all the laws before that time ? therefore to make them relative to all , i have express'd such a time as may relate to all ; for had i confined it singly upon this or that act , whereas i humbly conceive , that these acts and these offences of m. love are relative to more than one act of parliament , and go to severall acts ; and therefore i cannot confine my self to one act , and say , it was done at such a time , and there limit it and let it die ; but my indeavour hath been , and upon this particular we debated it , when we did draw it , we put it so , that the severall acts may have the severall effects , and m. loves treasons look upon every one of them , and they upon every one of his treasons , and as his offences run through , and against all the acts , so must our laying it upon him run , and the evidence also ; and though we took care to lay it back far enough , that was to the first of june , . and so laid it high enough to the other that it might reach the rest , and in this way we are not tied so to express it in every particular , as other indictments run . m hall att. of the dutchy . he would charge it upon the times between the . of march , and the . of june , that be not the times that we have exprest in this , for it is that within the times aforesaid we have positively laid , that it was in the year . for we have laid before that in the year , , , . then in the times aforesaid , we have positively laid , that this fact was done in the yeare . which of necessity must bee since that act concerning the scots was made , and that i conceive is an express positive time mentioned in the charge , and gives a full answer to that objection ; for it is not within such a time , but in the year . m. hales . that charge is within the times aforesaid , which is last mentioned , between march . and . mr. hall. that we shall submit to the court , whether in the same times aforesaid , shall not relate to all the times before-mentioned , as well as the particular times he hath picked out ; for we mention that in the year . these things were done . at. gen. for that i have given you that that is the generall answer , if i be put to it , whereas mr. love had transgressed against those severall acts of parliament , we have put it so , that we conceive his offences run through them all , and so we have laid them , and ( i hope ) we are not upon those nicities , that we must express the direct daies and times , as indictments run , but here is enough to make him know his offences . l. pres . i conceive it is much better as it is too , and more obvious to every understanding , and their interpretation , then as you would have it , a great deale ; for the necessities of the day it is not materiall , that you will agree , nor the week if they lay a time so many moneths before , or after , if the proof come and fall within the compass of the charge , as the proof is laid , so is the fact , the proof determines whether it were within the times without the law , or within the times aforesaid ; for it is not within that time , and every of them , but within the times generally laid , all those acts were done , and those must be laid in particular , which was at one time , and one at another , which were two yeers a brewing , and are by the proofs laid in generall , that is best to say , one fact was done at one time , and another at another time , and at such a time , and not at such a time , it can be no mans judgement to be so laid in an indictment or charge , but they must be laid thus in generall , and the evidence must make it particular , that it was within the times that are laid , as when there are no times , as from march to june and august , and after if they be both laid , if the fact be within such a time that is within the law , all the other is out of doors . m. hales . my lord , thus if it please your lordship , i think with submission to your lordships judgment , that in such a case it is not in the proof to make good a charge ; if the charge do not containe a sufficient certainty , it is not in the proofe to make it good . my lord , i insist now upon the necessity of a day to be precisely laid ; i know ( though it is true , it hath been otherwise held in some cases ) yet , in a case of this nature , the day is now materiall , for now we are upon an act of parliament : as now , if so be the statute of the th . of elizabenh enacts that every man that shall knowingly entertain a jesuite , that that man shall be a traytor , shall stand guilty of treason ; if so be a man would say in an indictment that such a man between the th . of november , in the th . year of the queen , and the . of december in the . year of the queen , did entertain such a jesuite , this indictment would be naught , not upon the uncertainty of the day , but because it takes in a time which is not prohibited by the statute , the inditement may be true that he did receive a jesuit within that time , and yet that he did not receive him contrary to the form of 〈◊〉 ●●atute , and to say in the conclusion contrary to the form of the statute will not help it , for that is ou● objection , that it is not done contrary to the form of the statute , because it takes in such a time , as that it might be done before the statute came forth ; we say , that when there is a time laid between the . of march , and june , . and that within that time he did do thus , and thus , that there is the fault , it doth over-reach the time of the prohibition of the statute , for any thing appears to the court , the court may finde the inditement or information true , that he did it within this time , that is , between the . of march . and june , . and yet for all that , the party not in fault to be impeached , because he might not do it contrary to the act , for he might do it between the . of march , . and june , . and yet do it before the act came forth , which was in august , . m. hall. my lord , i conceive m. hales hath not answered that i alledged ; but now if there were no other times mentioned in all the charge , but onely between the of march and june , . then it were somewhat ; but when the times are express'd before , though that it was in the year . and then we say in the times beforesaid , i conceive that in the times aforesaid shall relate expresly to that time in the year , . and then it must be within the act. m. hales . that cannot be , that will make the charge worse . l. pres . that i conceive you are upon is this , the very letter of the charge ; for you say at this time that is laid , he could not be a traytor , and you joyn it with a time in which he might be a traytor ; this ( you say ) they lay in the inditement , that he did in such a time of march , and afterwards , and at that time there was no law to prohibite it , and so that could not be a crime against him , and this , you say , no proof will help it , i take it , m. hales , this is the substance ; but if this be thus laid , and the proof doth come in , this is very essentiall in my judgement , when upon the matter , if this be as you see it appears upon the face of the thing , that the proof must go to that time within the law , and therefore that will not vitiate at all such an inditement , if it were so as you say ; but i take it , that this being complicated with more lawes , as i said before , though he were not guilty upon this , yet in the conclusion he is found guilty of that which is as to other offences . att. gen. i shall say but this , wee all know that a time is express'd but for formality , and that time that is express'd is not materall , so it be laid far back enough ; but if i lay it in june , and prove it in june twelve months , it is time enough for this , as your lordship was saying : that which i do say , is , that i cannot confine not this very act that is supposed to be , and yet not laid to be against that act of the second of august . from this clause in expresse terms , not singly : but that which i humbly insist upon is this , that never a one of these offences singly transgresse one single law , but is an offence against severall lawes . i conceive , i had done my self and the commonwealth wrong , had i limited it to any one ; for his complying with the scots , and joyning with them , and contributing with them , and receiving intelligence , it is more then against that single act ; it is promotion of his interest , and subversion of the government , and against every one of the laws : and therefore , i conceive , i had not done right to the place i am entrusted with , if i should have laid it singly ; but he is indited , that as a false traitor he hath done these things ; that is the preamble : and then wee ininstanced the particulars , and give a time , which time he will acknowledg is not positively necessary to be true , that that time must be the day the fact was committed , but if it be before , it is enough : but he infers , because this seems to be an offence within the statute of the second of august . and is laid between the of march , and the first of june . and so whether this can relate to that act ; and by evidence you know it is afterwards ; but this being an offence against severall laws , i cannot charge it to be against one law : but the art is now , as mr. love began , to take it asunder , and singly , and then it is nothing ; and mr. hales takes it singly . it is not against this , nor against this ; but it is against every one of them , and not against this singly , but against the rest of them . s. tho. wither . my lord , it cannot be contrary to the forme of the statute , unlesse it be done after the time , so that the conclusion shews it was laid within the time , but for that case , as mr. hales instanced in , he puts a case of one act of parliament , we are now upon offences against severall acts of parliament , in that case of retaining a jesuite , he is a traitor by the act of the of elizabeth , so that if he laies it between the of the queen , and the . if the jury find that hee did retaine him knowingly on the . of may . then it will not be denyed , but that it is an offence against the statute . mr. hales . but still we say the inditement is naught in that case , because it takes in a time which was before the act came forth , so that the party might do it within the time exprest in the inditement , and yet not do it contrary to the act , and this is our case . at. gen. my lord , you have heard us for that . mr. hales . the last thing is concerning contribution to silas titus , and sterks a scotchman ; and to that we have the same exception , that that is not made treason by any act of parliament , and therefore it is mislaid to be done traiterously , for the statute of the of march , only prohibits it , and so makes it penalt , but not treason . but then we say againe , it is laid very uncertainly too ; that is , at the times before mentioned ; if mr. atturney of the dutchie his constructions should stand , that is , that the times before mentioned refer to the time past , then he may refer to a time before the act. but we conceive the thing it selfe is not treason by the act , but only prohibited ; and we conceive , under favour still , that by way of reduction to any of the former charges , this shall not be made as an instance or an overt act by way of reduction to any of the former charges , because it is charged particularly to be traiterously done , because there are severall charges of treason before , and that which mr. atturny was pleased to observe upon another occasion , that in this case the charge is against severall acts of parliament , it is true , but though it be against severall acts of parliament , yet it must bind & pinch upon one ; for we say , one treason is not to be made an instance to another , and so to be made accessary , and depending , and accidentall to another , and then we say in this case , that this being not a treason in it selfe , and being as uncertain to which of the former treasons it is applyed , it cannot be well laid , nor well applyed , that is , to the last , that he did voluntarily relieve silas titus , it is not made treason . attur . gen. it is against the act of the . of august , . in express words : read the impeachment . the clerk. and further to carry on and accomplish the said trayterous and wicked practice and designe , he the said christopher love within the times , and at the places last aforesaid , did trayterously and voluntarily relieve the said silas titus , edward massie , col. bamfield , one mason late of london gentleman , and one sterks late of london gentleman , who then were , and yet are under the power of the scotch nation in arms against the parliament and common-wealth of england , with monies and ammunition . which treasons and trayterous and wicked practises and designs of him the said christopher love , were and are to the apparant hazard of the publike peace of the common wealth , and free-state , parliament and people of england , and to the manifold breach , contempt , and violation of the lawes of this land , and contrary to the forme of divers statutes and acts of parliament in such case made and provided . m. hales . then we say , it is uncertainly alledged , and uncertainly laid : but we take it , it is not within the words of the act , we desire that act may be read . the clerk. that shall from and after the . of august , . use , hold , and maintaine any correspondence , &c. m. hales . then this is not within this act , because that this is concerning sending to persons that are in scotland , i observe not that it is charged that they were in scotland . at. gen. or shall abbet , assist , countenance or incourage the scotch nation , or any other person or persons adhering to them in their war against the common-wealth : what think you of relieving , is not that abbetting and incouraging ? m. hales . it should be laid so then , i desire that part of the charge may be read again . the clerk. and further to carry on , &c. m. hales . my lord , we think this is not fully charged according to the act. at. gen. i will read you another of the . of march . m. hales . that makes it not treason . at. gen. it comes very neer it , but i insist upon it , it is under the other , relieving them with mony , buying of arms. mr. hales . still the same exception lies upon it , within the times aforesaid , which certainly cannot be acknowledged . at. gen. we acknowledge the same exception ; and the same answer lies to it , that of the . of march . it is , he shall suffer death , and upon this it is treason upon both together , we cannot divide them , but must express them so . mr. hales . under favour , the one makes it felony , and the other a treason . at. gen. but it is a deadly one . l. pres . if a statute law makes a thing felony that was not felony , or recites a thing that is felony , and saith it shall be punished with death , being a petty larceny , therein you say well ; but if the statute recites that that is treason in it selfe actually , and saith , that they that doe these things shall suffer death , according to the nature of that offence that is formerly recited , and limits it so in the recitall , if the recitall be treason in the beginning , and then say , that that trartor shall suffer death without mercy . m. hales . we have shewed our reasons in the case , my lord , it is as much as we can say upon this sudden concerning this charge ; there are some other things that are mentioned here by mr. love , as how far forth there be sufficient witnesses , admitting the charge were good ; how far forth the witnesses are sufficient in themselves ; and then whether here bee two concurring witnesses to any one act , and whether any thing be more proved then misprision of treason , and concealment of treason ; these are things mr. love takes upon him in fact to say : and now for those , when the case is made , we shall be ready to speak to these things ; for truly it is sudden and new to me , for these matters came not to my knowledg till this morning after eight a clock ; that is , concerning the last paper he offers to your lordship , and that is , exception to witnesses , proof , and matter of the proof , whether the bare concealment ( for thus it is stated unto us , the concealment ) of any thing that is treason whether that be treason or no in the party that conceals it ; these are things that if we were prepared for , we should speak to . first , we conceive by the statute of primo & quinto elizabethae , there is a necessity in this proceeding before your lordship to have two lawfull and sufficient witnesses . next of all , we thinke , that if these witnesses be such as he hath stated them to be ; which whether they be or no , we know not , for we are utterly unacquainted with the evidence , yet we should think they are no sufficient witnesses ; and then admitting they were sufficient witnesses , yet if so be one witnesse speaks to one fact , another to another , we conceive these are not sufficient witnesses within the statute , not sufficient to convict him . and then , if that which they have witnessed be nothing that amounts to treason , haply committed by others , that makes him not guilty within the acts. if we had time to understand , and digest , and consider , what were the matters that are alledged , we should be able to say somewhat to it . my lord , that which we have said , we have said of a sudden , and so it appears because we had not that clear understanding of the charge as otherwise we might have had , and so have saved much of your time . att. gen. for that that hath been said suddenly by mr. hales , i shall suddenly give it this answer , he hath had more time then i , he hath said from mr. love and not from himselfe : he saith when the case is made ; i think it will appear then that these exceptions have been made to the court , that the witnesses have not been competent neither in quality nor number , they have been spoken to ; for the witnesses , the exception to the quality because they were of the same gang , they had a hand in the some treason , that was the exception , i think that will not be allowed to be a legall exception , they are persons that ( as mr. love pretended ) had a hand with him in this fact , and therefore they should not be competent witnesses ; that i shall appeal to mr. hales's judgment , before conviction and upon a proceeding , whether they may not discover ( and after conviction ) if they be approvers . for the next , for two witnesses ; when the case is made , you will find one , two , three , four , five , six , and to most of them two , three and four , for so i may make bold to say , for so i read them to you the last day . and then for the last exception , that was for the concealment of treason , it is far from it , for i know not what a concealment mr. love may intend , i am sure mr. hales will not think that a concealment to run on one , two , or three years , and run on , and send letters ; that when he acts along with them , and hath the meetings at his house continually ; moves them to receive money , and contribute ; i think hee was the highest actor amongst them , for the meetings were continually at his house , the advices were there resolved upon debates , there he gave his advice one way , and they another way ; i think he will not think this is but misprision of treason ; and we never did charge it , nor intend it so , but went a little higher . mr. hales . if that be declared to be insisted upon , that the non-revealing of treason , though it be a month or two , or a year or two , can be no treason , then we have done with that question ; for then it wil rest singly upon the fact before your lordship , whether there be any thing more proved , then such a concealment , then it is true , we are discharged of that question . but then concerning the proof , if master atturney will please to admit , that the proofs are such as master love hath stated in this paper . — att. gen. that i shall not do before hand , but to debate upon the proof , i shall crave your lordships directions ; i have gone over them already , and it hath been trouble enough to me , if it be your lordships pleasure i must go over the proof again , i shall submit to you , but not to him . l. pres . mr. hales , there is no witnesses that have been heard , but they have been of the said confederacy , that was one exception mr. love made ; it was debated at the producing , and over-ruled , and i beleeve your judgement will go well with us , that it was no exception . another was , that they have been promised rewards , that was likewise moved , and over-ruled , the court was of opinion that they may do it ; that if there bee a treason , and there be many correspondents in it , and one out of remorse , as some of these did say , that when they had been there they did not like their waies , but went from them , and came to them no more ; if this man , or any other man afterwards shall come and reveal this , it is in the power of the state either to reward him with monies , and to promise him life too , if hee shall faithfully do it ; and this wee say , is a stronger case then the case of an approver , which afterwards when they became approvers , they must confesse the fact , and say they are guilty of the fact plainely , and openly , and yet then they are good witnesses to discover this , as it was plotted in hell , for this was no other , though they had a vizard upon them , which was no otherwise ; i say , if any one will discover such ; nay haply it was offered to master love himselfe , if he would have done it : i beleeve there was some overtures made to him ; but this is law too , by the law of this land , which is the law of god ; for we have no law practised in this land , but is the law of god , and so did the lawyers maintain it before the king in henry the eighths time , the popes , legates , and chief arch-bishops , and bishops of england , and did then prove it to them , that there was no law practised in england but the law of god , which our ministers are loath to touch , and busie themselves to study , but study the ceremoniall lawes of the jewes , which are mortua mortifera , which are not to be practised by any other nation , till they be established by a law ; and that which is the law of god in this land , that hath so much preserved it , these they are wilfully ignorant of , and say , it is civill ; but i say , his christian law : and therefore never distinguish in a christian nation , that the lawes are morall and ecclesiasticall , with that fained distinction ; but all the lawes of this nation are christian , and stand with evangelicall truth , as well as with naturall reason , and they are founded upon it ; and therefore , master hales , we are here now to go on by these lawes , which are the lawes of god , and wee must walk in them , as wee would walk to heaven . and for that you speak of now , mr. atturney hath answered all the exceptions every one , and i think for that matter of fact , every one of them particularly . mr. love did take his exceptions too , and they were over-ruled . now to come , whether these are lawfull witnesses over again , when it is in matter of fact , and over-ruled by the judgement of the court , master hales will not think that is regular . and then , whether there be two to one point or nor , that is another of your exceptions ; that i take it ( master hales ) is not matter of law , but for the judges to consider of it ; that which should be matter of law , is this , whether that single proofs , some to one , and some to another , joyned all together do issue out all this treason ; we want not presidents for that , for this is a heterogeneall treason , every particular that these statutes make a treason , they are all of them complicated , he hath gone through them all in his act , and we must passe through them all in our judgments : though every one is particular treason , had it been singularly laid by it self ; yet now being laid as one concatinated treason , they all of them make but one . for the next , for that of misprision , he is not charged here with misprision at all , but direct treasons ; and if it be but misprision , we shall not for misprision judge him a traitor upon this charge ; but then , what is in his judgment misprision ? if this be nothing but a concealment , i think that the court upon the evidence will judge that it is more then a bare concealment , and whether mr. hales will think if i be a promoter , and concealer from one to another , and have so many continued meetings , whether two or three years together acting with them , & concealing them , for it is not a bare concealment , but a complicated act ; for if it were but a bare notion of it , we should have much ado to prove it , but ( i think ) the court is satisfied , it is more then notion . s. tho. wither . i shall speak a word to that mr. hales moved last , whether you will be pleased to hear any more of councels , in these three particulars ; for , under favour , these three particulars concerning the witnesses , concerning their quality and number , and the treason it selfe , these are matters of another kind of nature then all the rest he insisted upon , for the rest are meer matters of law , upon the formality , and insufficiency of the charge ; these questions of the witnesses , are questions that are mixt , for they depend upon the matters in fact , and cannot be otherwise stated ; now mr. love , though he had no councell appeared before , yet he had in his defence all these objections too ; as of the incompetency of them , because they were participes criminis , and for that i think ( under favour of your lordships judgement ) he had a full and a cleer answer to it , in case of an approver , he is particeps criminis , and accuseth men that are participes criminis , yet that man even ex merito justitia , he shall be pardoned , saith our law , and therefore that objection that is made against the witnesses , that they are promised rewards and pardon , that is no objection , for in that case the approver shall have his pardon , ex merito justitiae . then for the other point , that is , whether by two witnesses in such a plot or no , to prove a treasonable act , that is , consisting meerly upon the matter of fact , that i shall not take upon me to repeat , you have heard it ; but this i said then , and this i humbly offer now , that if there be two witnesses , though they concur not in the same individuall act , yet if they concur in two acts , concurring to the same treason , they prove the same treason ; if one prove the sending of letters , and another the sending of mony , i take it these are two witnesses , though they speak of two distinct acts ; but in our proof we have gone on to two witnesses , three or four in most points . but then for the misprision of treason , we did apprehend that , that which m. love himself hath confess'd , is treason it self ; but mr. love is pleased to make his own collection upon his owne confession , for i confesse my presence and silence after these meetings and consultations ; but this i take to be misprision of treason : to this i replyed , we took it to be treason it selfe , for our books say , a man must not sleep , nor look , back , but go presently to a magistrate to reveal it ; but when a man will not only sleep upon it , but keep it back , and act in it , this is more then misprision . but our charge is for a treason it selfe , and truly treason comprehends a misprision of treason in it , but this point i think neither will come in question now ; for we say and charge , that it is a treason it self , not misprision ; and that collection mr. love makes , it is his own , but the judgment is yours , whether it be a treason or not . mr. hales . if it be your lordships pleasure we shall speak , wee are ready to say what we can in the shortnesse of time ; but if it be not your lordships pleasure , we shall not say it . at. gen. if your lordship please to declare what he should speak to . mr. hales . these points , i shall onely mention them , i cannot argue them now . this is that i conceive ; first of all , according as the case is stated , that is , whether a person menaced , that hee shall lose his life if he discover not a particular person , and that he shall have his life if he do discover him ; whether such a person be a competent witnesse or no ? att. gen. hear a word , i appeal then to you , whether any such person were produced before you ? mr. hales . first we only go upon what supposition mr. love makes . mr. love. i humbly crave leave to that effect , to prove that particular . at. gen. no , not now , sir. mr. hales . wee conceive such a person is not a competent witnesse : then that is out of the case , it should seem , sir. truly , then the case that is put concerning an approver , comes not to the question , under favour ; for though it is true , an approver at common law , might be an accuser ; yet we are not now upon a proceeding at the common law , when we talk of witnesses now ; but we are upon a proceeding how far forth warranted for the witnesses , by the stat . of the first and fifth of ed. : so that what is said concerning an approver , comes not to this question ; he that may be a competent witnesse at common law , he is not a competent witnesse upon those statutes , for the words of the statute are expresly , that hee shall be a lawfull and a sufficient witnesse : and if so be that such a case were now , it is not to sample this case that is before you , with the case of an approver , which is a bare accusation at common law , and where the jury likewise are to have other evidence ; for either the defendant may wage his battell , or put himself upon his country ; and then it is at the pleasure of the jury whether they will beleeve the approver or no : but by the act of the first and fifth of edward the sixth , it is expresly said , there shall be two sufficient witnesses in case of treason ; so that that hath made an alteration of what was in the common law before ; one witnesse was enough before , now two witnesses are requisite : and we conceive , the words lawfull and sufficient conclude such persons : if there be not any such , we are not to say we know , or know not : but if so be any person is drawn to make such a testimony for the preservation of his life , and shall make such an expression , wee think , that though it is true , he is a person that is attainted , yet he is a person that is thus drawn , and we think he is not such a witnesse as is intended , especially in such a case as this is , where the tryall of the fact is before your lordship , which is both jury and judg , to try the fact , and determine the law ; and therefore perhaps here will be a more rigorous expectation who should be , and who should not be a sufficient witnesse , then in case it were a bare tryall by jury ; there may be those exceptions alledged against a witnesse when the tryall is as now it is , that may not be when a triall is by a jury ; and threfore i● so be that a party be thus drawn to testifie for the preservation of his life , we think that this is not such a lawfull and sufficient witnesse as is required in such a case . next of all , it is said in the paper , that they have detected themselves , being parties of as deep a guilt as the person that is accused : i will not dispute that at this time ; for it is not the case , whether a person that is a plotter and confederate with one that commits treason , may be a witnesse ; but when a person is detected by lawfull authority , before the charge exhibited , whether such a person who is so detected , whose life is in the hands of the state , be one of these competent witnesses , we must leave it to your judgment in that , but we think he is not a competent witnesse ; for there is not a bare accusation of a person , but ( as the case is stated to us ) by a person that should be examined and confesse himself guilty of those things whereof mr. love is impeached , and that before the charge is exhibited . my lord , the next matter is concerning the plurality of witnesses , the number of them , we think , under favour , with submission , that in this case , suppose the charge had been singly upon one act of treason , wee conceive , that in that case there is a necessity of two persons to prove that charge : if the charge be upon severall acts of treason , be the charge so ; yet if you will bring them within any one of the acts , you must have two witnesses to bring them within that act : for suppose a man were indited of treason heretofore for levying of war , and another treason for adhering to the enemies , and another treason for counterfeiting of the coin , or those kinde of things ; these are severall treasons , though they are all put into one information , and haply may be put , in case of necessity , into one indictment , as here are severall acts put into one charge . but now a proof of treason within one of the acts by one witness , and a proof of a treason within another of the acts by another witnesse , will not be esteemed and accounted a proof by two witnesses ; for it must be a proof , not that he is within the charge , but within that part of the charge upon which he is to be arraigned ; and here is not a proving each distinct part of the charge by two witnesses , as the statute requires . and then to come neerer , suppose the charge were but upon one act , as that he held correspondence with the scots , and did invite them &c. i conceive that in this case , under favor , that that particular act with which you will charge him to be a traitor within any one law , must be proved by two witnesses . the star-chamber course i know what it was , that in case there were one generall charge , and then it did descend to severall particulars , one witness would serve for one , and another to another , and a third to a third , and these should make up two witnesses to convict the party ; but we are not now in a proceeding of star-chamber , that is laid by , it was not altogether so regular in all things : and then , we are not in a thing barely criminal , but in a case of life ; and not in the case of life ordinarily , but in a case wherein a party is accused of treason , wherein the statute doth provide that there shall be two witnesses ( as i conceive ) to swear to the same thing , by which you would bring him within it ; otherwise they stand as single witnesses every one apart . i have heard of a case ( i have not had so much time as to look into it ) concerning mr. rolph , indited at winchester ; i will not so much as repeat over the case upon my credit to the court ; but i take it , it was thus : hee was indited for somewhat about the person of the king ; one witnesse deposed about the presenting of a pistol , or that he said he would ; another about poisoning , or that he said he would : these two things did conclude in one & the same act ; and though they concluded in one and the same as evidences , complicated evidences to make good one charge , and either of them had been sufficient , if proved by two ; yet as i am informed ( this is the inconvenience , upon the sudden we cannot offer it upon the confidence of our own knowledg , which a little time would make us wholly decline the mentioning of it , or affirm it upon our credit ; but this i am informed ) was not held a case proved by two witnesses ; and if that be so , then i conceive these steps ; the first will be agreed , that the proof of severall charges by severall witnesses , against severall acts , will not make a proof by two witnesses ; it must be a proof by two witnesses against one act : therefore the proof of any thing against the act of the of july , and another proof of a thing done against the act of the thirtieth of january ; and another for a thing done against the act of the d. of aug. ; here the offences are severall , the treasons severall , and the witnesses to either stand singly by themselves : how the case of the fact is upon the proof , i cannot tell ; that is , whether this falls out to be the case . but again , if the charge were single , as now upon the act of the of january , for proclaiming of the king , or promoting the prince of wales his interest to be king of england ; we think , with submission , ( which we shall leave to your judgment ) that in that case there is a necessity of two witnesses to speak to one thing ; and not one to supply one part , and another to supply another : that shall be as much as i shall say concerning that ; and i could wish that wee had had so much time as to look into it , to inquire what the truth of that case was which was tryed at winchester , as i take it . now for the other matter , that is , whether misprision of treason , concealment of treason be treason ? if that be not insisted upon . att. gen. no , no. mr. hales . under favour , the law is , that concealment of treason is not treason ; but if that be not insisted upon , then the question of the fact is , whether there be any more then a proof of a concealment , or of a misprision of treason ; which if so be it be not , i can say no more . att. gen. truly ( my lord ) i did intend to speak to that of m. loves case , and as of his making , but not now of his making , but as he hath made it formerly ; surely , it is a great deal of patience and favour you have afforded him , that for matter of fact and law you have heard it all over again : as for that first , of the competency of the testimony , i shall remember his own division ; first , of the charge : secondly , of the witnesses and the testimony : the third , concerning himself : and the fourth , his humble proposals to the court. one part of his defence was concerning the witnesses and testimony , that he made a long defence to ; and if it be not good evidence , that parties that are of the same robberies may not accuse their fellow theeves , i think some must be unhanged that have been hanged : but that i shall not speak to , for i think not that mr. hales his judgment leads him to it ; but if they were threatned , and should be made afraid of their lives , that were somewhat ; but that is not the case here . the next is for two witnesses : i might say , that by the common law of england , one witnesse was enough before the law of quinto edwardi sexti was made ; for else it was not needfull to be made ; and mr. hales knowes again , that as to triall , those lawes are repealed ; but not to trouble you with these things , or to say wherein they must concur , i did crave the favour of you to read the witnesses as they deposed , and i did tell you when it was by hear-say , and when upon knowledge , and when by two , three , and foure , to severall acts of m. loves own actings , two , three , foure witnesses , i think they are number enough to accuse , and detect a person of as high quality . and for the last , for misprision of treason , m. love hath said that which never came into my thoughts , that such actings done by m. love could be judged misprision , he that acted with them , consulted , and debated , and plotted , gave his judgement one way , moved to raise mony , received intelligence , all brought to his house , and transacted there ; i would appeal to m. hales his judgment , whether this could be misprision of treason , when a party acts in it , hath the meetings at his own house , and hath there debates of commissions , and instructions , and letters , i think this goes as far beyond misprision , as treason is beyond misprision ; but seeing these are new cases before you , you have spent enough of your time , i shall not spend more to argue the cases that are not . m. love. i humbly crave leave that seeing my councell some of them are rejected by the court , as not fit to plead before you , and seeing another of them , m. maynard , the necessity of his affairs is such , he could not be here this day to plead here , and seeing this worthy gentleman came here unprepared , whose face i never saw till this morning , therefore i humbly pray there may be more time and councell assigned me with your favour and leave , that they may fully debate the argument before you , those matters of the law which are under his hand , and the hands of the two worthy gentlemen rejected by you to plead here , that others may be added to m· hales to plead the matters of law before you , and that i may have a copy of the charge . at. gen. i hope wee have had delayes enough , it is with the court , now wee have done . m. love. and sir , there are witnesses here present that will prove that which m. atturney-generall thought none could prove , to wit not onely generall threats , if they would not confesse in the generall , but promises of favour , and threatning of death if they would not testifie against me in particular , and i have manifold exceptions touching the incompetency not onely of number , but quality ; one witness said , he could not in conscience , and did not swear till he was threatned , nay , fined by you , and drawne out of the court ; another witness had money laid to him by cobbet , which was given his wife , which did seem to conceal the bribery the more ; but he confessed himselfe that the mony was laid down in his house , and given him to make use of , and to be the price of my blood ( sir ) to testifie against me : i have witnesses to produce , major adams said , he should be hanged , if he did not testifie against me ; for he had given information , and been in hire for many moneths together ; major cobbet , and three other messengers have come to him , and offered him preferment for four moneths together , if hee would reveale what hee calls a design against the common-wealth , and he hath not revealed this till he had these promises of preferment ; and did not declare against me till he was threatned by death if he did not do it ; therefore i beseech you hear what witnesses i can bring in to invalidate the testimonies of these men . at. gen. my lord , it seems i must be for all ; now m. love begins with the court , that you threatned them , and punished them ; i appeale to all here , whether a witnesse brought into a court in matter of property , and refuse to take his oath , whether that court be not bound in iustice to punish him , and yet if he shall see his error , and submit himself to do that which to justice belongs , then ( i think ) it is justice and mercy in you to remit him of both ; and that is the case of this gentleman ; in conscience , he could not swear against him , a conscience well wrought upon ; he could not in conscience sweare against him : for him it was done in the court , and by the court , and ( i thinke ) undeniably justified . m. love. he is not under an oath to this day , he hath declared it himself . at. gen. this is to satisfie other men , but it is not so regular , and orderly to be done ; but my lord , and the court are pleased to give you a faire hearing , and proceedings , that no exceptions may bee taken to it : there was another that was as good as his word , that hee could not finde in his conscience to sweare against mr. love , and that was a minister , that conscience deserved to be rectified more than five hundred pound comes to , and perpetuall imprisonment : that man that cannot finde in his conscience to judge him that was a godly person ( as hee thought ) and against him hee must not give witness , not for treason , not to save a common-wealth ; and he hath had your sentence , and most justly ; i thinke all that was , was too little , my lord. then for the rest , this is a discourse to satisfie people , the spectators here ; for surely these are extravagancies , and totall irregularities ; he hath had his time to except , and heard to except , and said all that he hath said now ; and so there is nothing more to be done , but now for us to rest in your judgments what you will do further . m. love. i beseech you , i acquainted your lordship and the court , that some of the witnesses were not well , others i could not get them here present , but did make offer to bring witnesses to prove against major adams , that he hath confessed himselfe he was threatned with death if he did not inform against me , and he said these words , he could not tell whether he should in conscience think rather better to be hanged then to come in against me ; and he could swear only generalls , and could not sweare that ever i did write or receive letters : and m. jaquel himself , since he was sent away from the court , hath said he was not under an oath . at. gen. what course shall we hold ? if you will not be regular , let the court be regular : had you not time for to do it then ? did he not demand indempnity for them ? and rather than he would produce others to hurt themselves , he would rather die himself first . m. love. but these are not under a crime , i beseech you , the court would be tender in matters of blood . at. gen. be tender of justice . l. pres . i would you had been so too . m. love. this man declares himself he is not under an oath to this day , he did but put his hand upon his bttons . l. pres . those were your very words , and very uncivill and indiscreet ; you have not spoke at any time yet , but you have hurt your self more than any body els hath , and yet your language is so liberall , that no man shall escape the lash of your tongue . mr. love. i feare no man , my lord. at. gen. that is a bold word . l. pres . you have as ill comments as any man that wears a cap ; your guiltiness appears in this you say ; we have heard all this that you require before ; those very words that you say of this man now particularly , go to them first , that he was saying , he was not under an oath . it was said so again , and again , and again at that time we brought him , and before he was examined , holding up his hand , we asked him it , and he said he did , and put it to him again , and again , are you under an oath ? till at the last he did conclude and testifie he was under an oath ; i testifie this before all the company here , this is noised abroad , again by many people , the care we had of that very man you speak of , you asked him three or four times then , and at the last upon the conclusion , he confessed himselfe he was under an oath , hee did not doe as you doe , you will say things are truth , but you will not speake those truths before god in a testimoniall way , though some of your witnesses that proved , said it was true in the presence of god , what they gave under their hands ; these men that do thus , are no better than jesuits in reality , though not in name . you made a confession of misprision of treason you said , but you have confessed treason . i will tell you who did the like in the very words almost that you did , and that was father garnet , when hee came to see the evidence produced so full against him by those that were participes criminis , as you are , himselfe confessed when hee came to the last , had i thought ( saith hee ) that the state had had such cleare proofe against mee , i would have ingenuously confessed it , and not trifled with them as i have done : so you said , you did not thinke it would have been proved so farre as misprision ; but when it was proved sufficiently in your apprehension , and convicted , and your counsell had informed you it could not be lesse than misprision , then you would ingenuously confesse , so did garnet . the other witness that was threatned , it was testified by a worthy captaine ; i speak it again , was not it debated as much as the wit of man could ? did you not object that then that you do now ? and did not the court then satisfie you , or at least satisfie themselves that it was not so ? for i tell you in that verie thing wherein you say he was threatned , it was told you , that the captaine that was here then , deposed what hee had done , and how hee had done it , and at what time it was delivered ; for you were discovered long before that , and your examinations taken long before that ; upon this now when your treason was discovered and declared by severall witnesses , and that such a one was in confederacy , and i think the state might safely promise him life , and reward too ; for there is more in the plot yet , then is yet found out , and that some are like to hear of within this fortnight , that were here , which is a dangerous thing ; but this you did declare , and the court was satisfied , that all that was promised as a reward , was for discovering of a plot against the state : and that was lawfull by the lawes of god and man. and now you bring witnesse ; you were at first demanded whether you would bring them or no ; and you asked indempnity for them , and the next time you denyed you would bring none ; and now you are asked what you have to offer to the court , and after all this time , what come you to doe now ? to prove that that was acted here in the court ; you say , we threatned them ; true , that we did threaten some , and i think we went thus far , that if he would not , we would set five hundred pounds fine upon his head ; but he would none of that , but came in again , and delivered his knowledg . but you had another of your own robe too that came in , and hee would not testifie , and why ? his conscience was tender ; his science was perfect enough to speak against you ; for hee was confederate with you , and hath confessed enough of it ; but his conscience was tender : no man can tell here whose conscience is crazy , and tender ; conscience is a thing betwixt god and man onely ; and they that lay nothing upon their consciences to prove their integrity , they had as good say nothing before a judg ; for though wee have a law of conscience in england , yet that law is judged by rules ; and therefore he , whoever he be that pretends conscience , there are so many consciences , as there are men , and no men have power to judge of it but god ; but sir , for that cause that he would not for his tender conscience , we did set a fine of ● . upon him , and sentenced him to the fleet til he paid it : we call not this terrifying , neither doth the law ; nor any reward favour nor affection , for the discovery of a traitour , is no illegall act , this wee told you before ; but you must have it again , and again , and again ; so that you may delay , no time shall be omitted by you . mr. love. i have but a few words more ; your lordship was pleased to say , that you could justifie promising rewards to those that would discover , and threatning punishments to those that would not ; but you said , if i could prove promising of rewards or threatnings to them that would not testifie against me , they should be heard ; now i produce not witnesses in generall , that they were promised favour or threatned if they would or would not ; but i offer to produce witnesses that can witness against some of the particular witnesses , that said they should be hanged , if they did not witnesse against me ; and this , as your lordship promised , i humbly crave . at. gen. truly he will not want suggestions , he hath had his time to prove it , and one favour i shall beg of the court , that this your patience to mr. love , your just favour toward him , may be no president hereafter ; but for this , when we closed the evidence saturday was sevennight for the common-wealth , he had till wednesday following to make his defence ; for his witnesse he offered them , you offered to receive them , he said he would have none , now he comes to offer ; we produce you no new witnesse , nor offered nothing since saturday was sevennight , if we come to witnesses again , we shall come to an aspersing one another , we shall make it a prety endlesse work ; we have done our parts , and followed the rules of justice , and mr. love hath had his full liberty to justifie , to say what he could , and prove what he could for himselfe ; if he neglect his own time , to his own perill be it ; the court i hope will not be guilty of it to alter the wayes of justice . mr. love. i could not compell witness●s , there was no sub poenas , but they must come when they offer themselves . l. pres . you were asked , and you would produce none . mr. love. they were not in a capacity to come , my lord. at. gen. there is nothing resting more to be done , but now all being done ( if you please my lord all being done ) for the issue of the fact , all his exceptions to the impeachments , which are matters of law ; we are now humbly craving your judgement upon this impeachment between the keepers of the liberty of england , and master love the prisoner at the bar. i now humbly demand your judgement . mr. love. i humbly pray , that since i never saw the face of this worthy gentleman , till this morning , and so could have no particular advice from him , that there might be longer time allowed to this gentleman , and an addition of three gentlemen more , and a coppy of the charge . att. gen. you have had more then ordinary prisoners have had before , i will assure you , mr. love. l. pres . m. hales you have heard a little opened of our passages and proceedings which you did not before , but every man else hath lift up his voice ; you have gone over a great deal of the fact : now for matter of law , for that of misprision , that will rest ( i thinke ) in the judgement of the court ; there is no misprision laid , but treason , and i think the court will find ●reason upon the proofs that are before them , they will not need to have any argument of misprision , if the court think there is sufficient treason laid , then that argument , we need not desire no more time for that , and if it be misprision , that the court shall judge it so , then upon the matter there is no charge against him for us to proceed upon , so that by that charge , i cannot see what you can ground your argument upon . mr. hales . the charge is not only for treason , but for treason and other high crimes , and mis●demeanors . at gen. but not misprision . mr. hales . though the word be not in , we think it will reach it . l. pres . it will not indeed . at. gen. we insist upon it for the● commonwealth , for the charge is as it is laid . l. pres . for the two next , so i told m. love before , and he spent two hours at the least in capitulating the evidence of the state , not any thing of his own , for he gave no witnesses ; but he did go over the whole evidence of the state from point to point , and made , i think , himself ( as he said ) the exceptions that were made against them ; these he went over , though we might have shut him up at the first : for him to summ up that which was the duty of the court , when he had no evidence , to summ up the evidence of the state , which wee might not have let him : but this he did ; and it is our part to examine the evidences , and the nature of them , and what the nature of the thing is , and how many witnesses are to every point : whether there be two witnesses to a point or no , cannot fall under dispute of law , it is matter of fact . mr. hales . it is true , we are here only to do that duty that your lordship injoyns us to ( my lord. ) it is true , for us to dispute whether this evidence proveth such a thing or no , haply it may not belong to us to do that : but thus far , if your lordship think fit , this may haply be allowable ( with submission to the court ) that is , whether , if the proofs be admitted , this man positively proves thus , the o●ther man proves positively thus ; whether that these two proofs do make a proof of one fact , haply ( if your lordship shall so think fit ) there may be somewhat of law in that ; that is , whether it make a double testimony within the statute of primo and quinto : for ( with submission to your lordship ) the statute of primo and quinto is not repealed as to point of testimony ; it is repealed as to the place from whence the triall is to come ; but not in point of witnesses , therein it may come in questionlesse ( if your lordship shall think fit : ) but truly , i have not seen one word of the evidence from the beginning to the end ; and if so be that any matter should rise , that the court should think fit , as well as proper for me to offer in the defence of this gentleman , i must professe i cannot , unlesse i had seen the things ; for i have not seen one word . l. pres . for seeing the evidence further then memory , you nor no man else ought to know , though wee have given leave to write ; and therefore though wee have given leave to take notice of them , yet that is more then ever any court did , or we need to have done , but onely to trust to their own memories : but in that you speak of now , for you to have day to argue , when you are not able to say , nor we neither , that there is any such thing . did you ever hear such a thing , to pray day to argue that you do not know positively it is so ? att. gen. we have spent a great deal of time , and all that can be said will be but to run a round : what is to be done , is your own consultation among your selves . l. pres . withdraw your prisoner . mr. love. i beseech you , allow me time for councell . the court adjourns . another of master loves to his wife . more dear to me than ever , it adds to my rejoycing , that i have so good and gracious a wise to part with for the lord jesus : in thy grief , i have been grieved ; but in thy joy , i have been comforted . surely , nature could never help thee to bear so heavy a stroke , with so much silence and submission to the hand of god! o dearest , every line thou writest , gladdeth my heart . i dare not think that there is such a creature as ma●y love in the world ; for kit , and mall , i can think of them without trouble , leaving them to so good a god , and so good a mother . be comforted concerning thy husband , who may more honour god in his death than in his life ; the will of the lord be done , he is fully satisfied with the hand of god. though there be but little between him and death , he knows , there is but little between him and heaven ; and that ravisheth his heart . the lord bless and require thee for thy wise and good counsel ; thou hast prevented me , the very things i thought to have written to thee , thou hast written to me : i have had more comfort from thy gracious letter , than from all the counsel i have had from any else in the world ; well , be assured , we shall meet in heaven . i rest , till i rest in heaven . from the tower , the lords day . thy dying , but comforted friend , christopher love . another of master loves to his wife . my dearest delight on earth , i was fast asleep when thy note came . i bless god , i break not an hours sleep for all my sufferings ; i know they work for me a more exceeding and eternal weight of glory . i slept this night from ten at night , till seven in the morning , and never waked . my dear , i am so comforted in the gracious supports god gives thee , that my burdens are the lighter on my shoulders because they are not so heavy on thine ; or if they be heavy , yet that god helps thee to hear them . the lord keep it in the purpose of our hearts for ever , to submit to the good pleasure of god. i bless god i do find my heart in as quiet and composed a temper as ever i did in all my life . i am till i dye , from the tower , august . . thy tender hearted husband , christopher love . master loves last letter to his wife , on the day he suffered . my most gracious beloved , i am now going from a prison to a palace ; i have finished my work , i am now to receive my wages ; i am going to heaven , where are two of my children , and leaving thee on the earth where are three of my babes ; those two above need not my care , but the three below need thine . it comforts me to think two of my children are in the bosome of abraham , and three of them will be in the arms and care of so tender and godly a mother : i know thou art a woman of a sorrowfull spirit , yet be comforted : though thy sorrow be great for thy husbands going out of the world ; yet thy pains shall be the less in bringing thy child into the world ; thou shalt be a joyfull mother , though thou beest a sad widdow . god hath many mercies in store for thee ; the prayers of a dying husband for thee will not be lost . to my shame i speak it , i never pray'd so much for thee at liberty , as i have done in prison . i cannot write more , but i have a few practical counsels to leave with thee , viz. . keep under a found , orthodox , and soul-searching ministry ; oh there are many deceivers gone out into the world , but christs sheep know his voice , and a stranger will they not follow . attend on that ministry that teaches the way of god in truth , and follow solomons advice , prov. . . cease to bear instruction that causes to erre from the ways of knowledg . . bring up thy children in the knowledg and admonition of the lord : the mother ought to be a teacher in the fathers absence , prov. . . the words which his mother taught him : and timothy was instructed by his grandmother lois , and his mother eunice , tim. . . . pray in thy family daily , that thy dwelling may be in the number of the families that do call on god. . labour for a meek and quiet spirit , which is in the sight of god of great price , pet. . . . pore not on the comforts thou wantest , but on the mercies thou hast . . look rather at gods end in afflicting , than at the measure and degree of thy afflictions . . labour to clear up thy evidences for heaven , when god takes from thee the comforts of earth , that as thy sufferings do abound , so thy consolations in christ may abound much more , cor. . . . though it is good to maintain a holy jealousie of the deceitfulness of thy heart , yet it is evill for thee to cherish fears and doubts , about the truth of thy graces ; if ever i had confidence touching the grace of another , i have confidence of grace in thee ; i can say of thee as peter did of silvanus , i am perswaded that this is the grace of god wherein thou standest , pet. . . oh my dear soul , wherefore dost thou doubt , whose heart hath been upright , whose walkings have been holy , &c. i could venture my soul in thy souls stead , such a confidence have i of thee . . when thou findest thy heart secure , presumptuous and proud , then pore upon corruption , more than upon grace ; but when thou findest thy heart doubting and unbelieving , then look on thy graces , not on thy infirmities . . study the covenant of grace and merits of christ , and then be troubled if thou canst . thou art interested in such a covenant that accepts purposes for performances , desires for deeds , sincerity for perfection , the righteousness of another , viz. that of jesus christ , as if it were thine own . oh my love ! rest , rest then in the love of god , in the bosome of christ . . swallow up thy will in the will of god ; it is a bitter cup we are to drink , but it is the cup our father hath put into our hands , when paul was to go to suffer at jerusalem , the christians could say , the will of the lord be done ; oh , say thou , when i go to tower-hill , the will of the lord be done . . rejoyce in my joy ; to mourn for me inordinately , argues that either thou enviest , or suspectest my happiness . the joy of the lord is my strength , oh let it be thine also . dear wife , farewell ; i will call thee wife no more , i shall see thy face no more : yet i am not much troubled , for now i am going to meet the bridegroome the lord jesus christ , to whom i shall be eternally marryed . from the tower of london , th august , . the day of my glorification . thy dying , yet most affectionate friend till death , christopher love . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e psal . . . . . john ▪ . mar. . . . this passage of c. potters , [ mr. love , i have news to shew you ] was through some mistake left out of his depositions . pro. . cor. . . job . . an impartial account of the trial of the lord conwallis [sic] cornwallis of eye, charles cornwallis, baron, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an impartial account of the trial of the lord conwallis [sic] cornwallis of eye, charles cornwallis, baron, - . [ ], p. [s.n.], london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng cornwallis of eye, charles cornwallis, -- baron, - -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (murder) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - ali jakobson sampled and proofread - ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an impartial account of the trial of the lord conwallis . london , printed in the year . . an impartial account of the trial of the lord conwallis . after my lord high steward was ascended to the high chair of state , and sate down therein , the commission was delivered by the clerk of the crown in the chancery to my lord on his knees , who delivered it to sir thomas fanshaw clerk of the crown in the kings bench office , and he received it kneeling . then proclamation was made by the serjeant at arms who was cryer for the day . serjeant . o yes , o yes , o yes . my lord high steward of england strictly chargeth and commandeth all manner of persons here present upon pain of imprisonment , to keep silence and give ear to his majesties commission , to my lord high steward of england , to his grace directed . the clerk of the crown with his face to my lord high steward reads it thus , clerk of the crown . charles rex carolus secundus , &c. all which time my lord and the peers stood up bare . serjeant . god save the king. cl. cr. make proclamation . serjeant . o yes , the king at arms , and the usher of the black rod on their knees deliver the white staff to my lord , who re-delivered it to the usher of the black rod , who held it up all the time before him . cl. cr. make proclamation . serjeant . o yes . my lord high steward of england strictly chargeth and commandeth all justices and commissioners , and all and every person and persons to whom any writ or precept have been directed for the certifying of any indictment , or of any other record before my lord high steward of england to certifie and bring the same immediately according to the tenor of the said writs and precepts unto them , or any of them directed on pain and peril as shall fall thereon . the lord chief justice of the kings bench return'd his certiorari , and the record of the indictment by the grand jury of middlesex , which was read by the clerk of the crown , in haec verba . cl. cr. virtute , &c. l. h. stew. call the constable of the tower to return his precept and his prisoner . cl. cr. make proclamation . serjeant . o yes , constable of the tower of london , return the precept to thee directed , and bring forth the prisoner charles lord conwallis , on pain and peril as will fall thereon . the lord lieutenant of the tower brought in the prisoner on his left hand , with the axe before him , born by the deputy lieutenant , which he held with the edge from him , and returned his precept in haec verba . cl. cr. virtute , &c. l. h. stew. call the serjeant at arms to return his precept . cl. cr. make proclamation . serjeant . o yes , roger harfnet esq serjeant at arms to our soveraign lord the king , return the precept to thee directed , with the names of all the lords and noblemen of this realm , peers of charles lord conwallis by thee summoned , to be heard this day , on pain and peril as will fall thereon . he delivered his precept return'd with a schedule annexed thus ; cl. cr. virtute , &c. make proclamation . serjeant . o yes , all marquesses , earls , vicounts , and barons of this realm of england , peers of charles lord conwallis , which by commandment of the lord high steward of england , are summoned to appear this day , and to be present in court , and to answer to your names , as you are called , every one upon pain and peril as will fall thereon . then the panel was called over , the number of peers summoned were . in order as followeth , thomas earl of danby , lord high treasurer of england , &c. all that appeared , answered to the call , standing up bare . then my lord high steward made a speech to the prisoner at the bar thus , lord high steward . my lord conwallis . the violation of the kings peace , in the chief sanctuary of it , his own royal palace , and in so high a manner , as by the death of one of his subjects , is a matter that must be accounted for . and that it may be so , it hath pleased the king to command this high and honourable court to assemble , in order to a strict and impartial enquiry . the wisdom of the law hath therefore styled it the kings peace , because it is his authority that commands it , it is his justice that secures it , it is he on whom men do rely for the safety of their liberties , and their lives ; in him they trust that a severe account shall be taken of all the violences and injuries that are offered to them , and they that trust in the king can never be deceived . it is your lordships great unhappiness at this time to stand prisoner at the bar , under the weight of no less a charge than an indictment of murder ; and it is not to be wondred at , if so great a misfortune as this be attended with some kind of confusion of face ; when a man sees himself become a spectacle of misery in so great a presence , and before so noble , and so illustrious an assembly ; but be not yet dismay'd my lord for all this , let not the fears and terrors of justice so amaze and surprise you , so as to betray those succours that your reason would afford you , or to disarm you of those helps which good discretion may administer , and which are now extreamly necessary . it is indeed a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of justice , where the law is the rule , and a severe and inflexible measure both of life and death . but yet it ought to be some comfort to your lordships , that you are now to be tried by my lords your peers , and that now you see the scales of justice are held by such noble hands , you may be confident they will put into them all the grains of allowance , either justice or honour will bear . hearken therefore to your indictment with quietness and attention , observe what the witn●sses say against you without interruption ; and reserve what you have to say for your self , till it shall come to your turn to make your defence , of which i shall be sure to give you notice ; and when the time comes , assure your self you shall be heard , not only with patience , but with candor too . and then what judgement soever my lords will give you , your self will ( and all the world ) be forc'd to acknowledge the justice and equity of their judgment , and the righteousness of all their lordships proceedings . read the indictment . cl. cr. charles lord conwallis , thou standest indicted in the county of middlesex by the name of , &c. how sayest thou charles lord conwallis , art thou guilty of this felony and murder whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? lord conw . not guilty . cl. cr. how wilt thou be tri'd ? ld. con. by god and my peers . then my lord high steward addressed himself to the lords thus , ld. h. stew. my lords , your lordships have here a member before you of your noble body , exposed to the shame of a publick arraignment , and ( which to a man of honour is much less ) to the hazard , both of his life and estate ; all that he hath and ever hopes to have , his wealth , his fame , his posterity . all that is valuable to him in this world intirely depends on your lordships judicature , who are now his peers , and on whom he doth freely put himself . my lords , the priviledge of this kind of tryal and judicature is a part of the true greatness of the english nobility : it is an eminent and an illustrious priviledge . it is a solid point of honour and dignity . it is a priviledge that no neighbour nation ever had , and a priviledge this nation never was without . it is not a priviledge created by the great charter , but confest and acknowledged by it . they look but a little way that find this in the steps of the norman conquest , for it is to be found even in the footsteps of the saxon monarchy , when godwyn earl of kent was tried by earls and barons . and it is no improbable conjecture of theirs , who do think the wisdom of this constitution was taken from that law amongst the romans , whereby it was made unlawful for any man to sit upon a senator , that was not himself of the same order ; a priviledge , that ( as learned civilians tell us ) continued with them during the raign of many of the roman emperors . but , my lords , as this is a priviledge as antient as monarchy , so we have found by many old experiences , that it cannot be taken away without the dissolution of that government : therefore this is one of those many tyes by which the interest of the nobility , as well as their duty , have obliged them to the service of the king. in the exercise of this priviledge at this time ; i know your lordships will weigh the fact with all the circumstances , whereby it is to receive its true and its proper doom . your lordships are too just , to let pitty make any abatement for the crime , and too wise to let rethorick make any improvement of it : this only will be necessary to be observed by all your lordships , that the fowler the crime is , the clearer and the plainer ought the proof of it to be . there is no other good reason can be given , why the law refuseth to allow the prisoner at the bar counsel in matter of fact , when his life is concerned , but only this , because the evidence by which he is condemned , ought to be so very evident and so plain , that all the councell in the world should not be able to answer it : upon this ground it is , that the law hath trusted your lordships with the tryal of your fellow peers ; no trust can be more nobly lodged , nor no judicature had ever more true submission made to it : therefore it would be in me some want of respect to this august and noble assembly , should i go about to put your lordships in mind of your duty : no doubt you will observe the evidence carefully , weigh it diligently , and when that is done , it is impossible but the judgment you will give , must be right and honourable , and worthy of so wise and so great a body ; therefore i will not detein your lordships any longer , from hearing the evidence that is ready to be offered unto you . cler. cr. make proclamation . serj. o yes , if any will give evidence for our sovereign lord the king , against charles lord conwallis , prisoner at the bar , let him come forth , and he shall be heard ; for the prisoner stands at the bar upon his deliverance . the indictment was again read to the peers . serj. maynard . then serj. maynard the kings serj. at law , began thus , may it please your grace , my lord high steward of england and this great and noble assembly ; the prisoner at the bar , charles lord conwallis standeth indicted of a great crime , that he togather with charles gerrard , and edward bourne , not having in his heart the fear of god , but instigated by the suggestions of the devil , the . of may last , did felloniously and of his malice fore-thought , assault one robert clerk in whitehall , and that mr. gerrard took him up in his arms , flung him down , and broke his neck , of which he instantly died ; to this he hath pleaded not guilty : it lies upon us who are counsell for the king , in this case to prosecute it , and prove it to you . sir william jones the kings attorney general then spake thus . attorn . gener. may it place your grace ; my lord high steward of england , and my lords summoned for the tryal of the prisoner at the bar : this noble lord stands indicted for murder ; an offence , my lord , which is the first and greatest that is forbidden by the second table , and an offence of that nature , that the law of god hath by a most peremptory sentence condemned and decreed , that whoso sheddeth mans blood , by man shall his blood be shed . whether this noble lord be guilty of it , remains upon your lordships to try , and i shall very shortly state the matter of fact , which we shall prove , and then let the evidence be offered to you . we do not pretend , my lords , neither doth the indictment lay it , that this great offence was committed by the hand of my lord conwallis . for i know your lordships have observed the indictment , by which it is alleadged that the hand of mr. gerrard did the fact : but my lords , if we shall make it out that my lord conwallis did concur to this act , and had in himself at that time an intent to be a murtherer ; then it will be declared by his grace my lord high steward , and my lords the judges , that though his hand and did it not , yet he is equally guilty as if it had . now to make out the charge against him , our evidence will be shortly thus ; on the . of may last , early in the morning , between the hours of one and two came down two gentlemen with three footmen behind them out of the gallery at whitehall , by the stairs that lead down to the park : i call them two gentlemen , because it was not then discovered who they were , or of what quality ; but your lordships will perceived by the course of the evidence ; they were my lord conwallis and mr. gerrard comming down to that unseasonable hour ; the first question they askt the centinel ( who watched at the foot of the staires ) was the hour of the night , and from him had accompt that it was so much . the prisoner and mr. gerrard were somewhat distempered with drink , and made him a reply that he lyed , with great oaths accompanying it ; at that time they did no more but go by him into the park , where after they had continued by the space of an hour , back they returned to the stairs , and the centinel demanding , according to his duty , who came there ? they answered him in very obscene and uncivil language , and threatned they would kill the centinel , who only did his duty in enquiring who came by him at that time of night . and we shall make it appear they were in a kind of contention among themselves , who should kill him ; for as i am informed ( i know if it be not proved , your lordships will observe it ) one desired , pray let me kill him ; and the other desired , pray let me kill him ; and threatned no less than to run him through . my lords , the centinel being of a good resolution , was not affrighted from his place , but kept them off , and when they saw they could not win upon the centinel that way , one of them delivered away his sword which he held in his hand not drawn , and then was pelased to come to the centinel , and desired to kiss him , and swore he would do that ; but that the centinel did equally refuse , and then they did use the same threatnings again , and seemed to be in a contention who should run him through . my lords , after some time , being now come to the top of the staires , and there staying , it hapned there came to the stair-foot two youths , and these young men were it seems going to bed to their lodging which was very neer , and did make it their request to the centinel ( one of them did ) to call him up very early the next morning , because he was to go of a message out of the town . my lord conwallis and mr. gerrard remaining on the top of the stair-case , ( being as we said ) in disorder ( which is the strength of the kings evidence if proved ) both of them said before they went thence , they would kill some or other , which evidence will go a great way to shew the concern that noble lord the prisoner at bar had in the business . it hapned as these boys were making their request to the centinel , my lord and mr. gerrard took notice of it , and seemed to be concerned that they should command the kings souldiers , and bid the centinel shoot him , who told them he conceived the boy had done him no wrong in asking a civil kindness from him , they again call'd to shoot him and they would bare him out ; which he still refused to do , finding no reason for it then one of the two took occasion to swear a great oath , he would kick his arse to hell ; to which the boy that askt the centinel made some reply , wherein the word arse was repeated ; now ( whether they understood it as an interrogation , why kick my arse to hell ? as he intended it , or in a worse sence , kiss my arse ) one of the gentlmen in a rage came running down the stairs and that boy that in truth spoke the word run away , and the other poor innocent boy trusting in his own innocency remained there , until the person came to him and did on his knees , ( in a manner ) desire not to be mistaken , he was not the person that used any ill words , and cryed out , o my lord it was not i , indeed my lord it was not i ; but such at that time was the intemperance and wrath of the person , who in such a fury descending the stairs that ( whether with the blow or the fall ) the boy received his death . we find by our information of the evidence , that he who did the thing was in truth mr. gerrard , who is not yet taken ; but whether my lord the prisoner at the bar did not concur in it , and had not an intention to kill some body , is the question left for your grace and these noble peers to decide . this is the nature of the fact ; only i desire to observe , that it is true here was some distance between the place where my lord conwallis stood , and the place were the boy was killed . of what consequence that may be , i leave to your graces and these noble lords consideration ; it was the distance of the stairs ; but i think , as every one knows , they are not so many but what is done below may be easily seen at the top. we shall now without detaining your lordships any longer , call the witnesses and prove what hath been opened ; the souldier proved the fact as it was opened by mr. attorney general , except that part about both swearing they would kill one or other , which passage was heard but by one of them , and was spoken but by one of the gentlemen . they could not swear , who where the persons , because of the darkness of the time . the boy who was the companion of him that was slain , and that used the the words that caused the person to come down , swore them to be a repetition only by way of interrogation , ( why kick my arse to hell ? ) then mr. attorney desired to call my lord conwallis's own two footmen who had been indicted and acquitted at the kings bench bar. lord high stew. my lords the judges , is there any question whether a person acquitted of an offence be a good witness against another charged with the same offence ? judges . none at all : when he is acquitted he ought to be admitted . then the copy of the acquittal ( proved by a clerk in the crown office ) was read and then sworn , who fixed it upon the person of mr. gerrard and swore that my lord conwallis was all the while upon the top of the stairs , but after the fact committed ; hasted away for fear of being knock'd down by the souldiers ; and there ended the kings evidence . lord high stew. now my lord is the time come for your defence . you hear what is charged on you , pray speak what you have to say for your self . ld. conwallis . then the prisoner at the bar confessed himself to have been in the company that night when this accident hapned , which he hoped would be a warning to him to shun such disorders hereafter ; but that he had no evil intention , and but one witness swore that both of them would have killed the centinel , that he was not conscious to himself to have had a hand in it , and therefore withdrew not himself , but yeilded himself to the coroner the next day ( which he proved by the coroner himself ) and did therefore in trust of his innocency submit himself to the judgment of his grace and his peers : which being done , sir francis winnington , the kings solicitor general , summed up the evidence in this manner ; solicitor general . may it please your grace , my lord high steward of england , and my noble lords the peers of the prisoner at the bar. according to the duty of my place i am to repeat the kings evidence and state it to your grace and these noble lords , and submit to your great judgments how far it will go for the proof of this crime ; wherein i shall observe the duty of all honest men , which is to do nothing either to wrest any thing in disadvantage of the prisoner out of the kings evidence to goe farther than it ought , nor shall omit any thing that shall require your grace and the noble lords justice ; for we come to seek out the truth , and we question not but by this honourable tryal it will be brought to light : but i beseech your favour , to take notice in the first place what crime this noble lord stands accused of , and it is for murder , wherein our law takes notice , that murder is where a man unlawfully kills another under the kings peace , with malice forethought . now that here is a murder committed , i dare with all humily averre : by whom , that is the question ? for this robert clerk the person killed , doth appear by the course of the evidence to have been doing his duty , attending the place his employment required ; gave no offence to any whatsoever , but when the person came down and fell upon him , the poor youth cryed , indeed , my lord , it was not i ; yet my lords , the hands of violence seized him and killed him , let us then see how the evidence brings it home to the noble lord the prisoner at the bar ; wherein i must confess we have no express evidence ( nay we have evidence to the contrary ) that it was not his hand that did the fact actually , for it is by two witnesses ; the footmen swore that it was mr. gerrard who came down and gave the unfortunate blow : but we have that which we think with humble submission may reach this noble lord : for i know your grace and my lords remember , that after they had been an hour in the park , both returning , did with horrid oathes swear they would kill the centinel ; there the evidence fixeth it , not upon one only , but upon both ; it was at that time so dark , they could not be distinguished , but by the voice : the centinel hath given you an account how he performed his duty , and in what straight he was , he had much ado to save his own life , or to prevent killing them : but when they came upon the stairs , these two boys came there in order to desire the centinel to call one of them the next morning . then one on the stairs ( no man can tell who it was ) with horrid execrations , askt , will you command the kings soldiers ? shoot him , centinel , we 'l bear you out ; but all this while it was dusk , no distinction of persons could be made , whereupon it will fall out to come to this case , if several persons intend to kill one , and happen to kill another , whether this be not murder in them ? for the urging of this , as to the matter in law , i leave to him that comes after me : the centinel swears one of them did swear he would kill one or other ; who it was took up that cruel resolution , is left to you to judge . but at that time they were both together upon the top of the stairs ; and my lord doth not seem to give one title of evidence that shews any endeavours of the prisoner at the bar , to prevent the other , or disprove of his actions ; if he had given an account of that , he had silenced justice : but when they were all together , he not endeavouring to stop his hand ; it is as much in law as if he had strook the stroak . the other soldiers give you a particular account to the same purpose . the two last witnesses do bring it to the person of my lord the prisoner at the bar , and mr. gerrard , who , they swore , came down the stairs , and his man followed him to the bottom , and there staid at some distance , till the fact was done , and they all fled . this i take to be the matter of fact faithfully proved , before your grace , and the lords the peers , and i would not trouble your grace longer , because i would not misreport any thing , whereby i might do wrong , either to the prisoner , or the kings cause ; and because i know your grace and the noble lords will distinguish and find out where the truth is : i must say it is a great comfort to all the subjects of england , that crimes of this nature are so carefully presented , that whatsoever honours and dignities our gratious sovereign doth confer on any person , it doth not exempt him from the justice of the law : it is not only a comfort to this assembly , but to the whole nation , to see the king tender of his subjects persons and lives , in that he hath caused this strict course to be taken , where the enquiry hath gone from the grand jury of the county , till the bill came to this great tribunal ; where i doubt not but your grace and these noble lords will give a righteous and just judgement . then serj. maynard concluded thus ; serj. maynard . may it please your grace , my lord high setward of england , and my noble lords the peers . i according to the duty of my place , come now to conclude the charge on the kings behalf ; some things are fit to be observed upon the evidence , that may produce a question for the decision of the fact , of what nature it is , that a murder is committed , is upon evidence without all question ; and not only the death of a man , here is a child slain , without any provocation in the world given by him to that person that did it , and that did it too , notwithstanding the deprecations of the boy , affirming his own innocency , and that with as full circumstances , as a christian almost could a thing : these came from the kings palace walk in the park ; call the centinel rogue , and when he doth his duty , swear to murther him ; with oaths , that a christian would blush at , and be afraid to hear ; god damme oftentimes reiterated ; and he that saith that word , doth beg of god to hate him , and affirm that he doth hate god. the obscenity that they used , i shall not mention again ; these are circumstanes of the case ; that all were guilty of much , is no doubt ; but who , of the murder , is the question ; and i humble conceive , it is manifest , that this noble lord was concerned in it . for it is not requisite , to make a murder ; that he who kills a man , hath conceived a malice against him ; for if i have a malice against any man , and the effect of that fall upon another , it is murder . i apply it thus , if it be a murder in mr. gerrard , if this noble lord partake with him in the design , which made it so ; to wit , the malice against the centinel , he is as guilty , as if his hand had been as much upon him , as was mr. gerrards , as in that known case of the man that poisoned an apple , with an intention to kill his wife , and she not knowing of the poison , gave some of it to her chlid , of which it died , though he had no design to kill the child , yet , the malice he had conceived against his wife suppli'd the defect of an express malice to make it murther ; and he was hanged therefore . so if a man assault a master , in the presence of his servant , who defends his master , and is slain , though the other had no purpose to kill him , yet it is felony in him , for which he shall die ; the law implying a malice . then here was clearly a malice to the centinel ; how neer it comes to the boy , will come in question afterwards . i find the objection made in my lord's case , that at the particular time wherein the fact was committed , my lord was not with mr. gerrard : but that will be no objection in the case ; for if he did partake in the design of the other , i will answer it with the case of my lord dacres of the south , who with some other went unlawfully to steal deer , and the keeper coming , some fled , among whom , my lord was one : the keeper was killed , my lord dacres being at that time without the pales , a mile off from the place , and yet was found guilty of the murther , and left both his lands and his life for it . but here my lord conwallis was present , for the witness swears the distance was not so great , but it might be discerned . now whether he was aiding or assisting , is the next thing in question . what occasion had they of malice , revenge or injury to the centinel ? they both swore they would kill him : had there been any excuse for the other , if one of them had killed the centinel ? that could not be : well , they did not kill the centinel , but at the same time take up a causeless offence against another , and kill him : i argue , that the malice against the soldier , was diffusive to the boy ; and one of the witnesses proves , that one of them swore he would kill some body : now , no one speaks to any thing of my lords reproving mr. gerrard . thus stands the case before your grace and my lords ; it is a case of blood , and it cries loud : how far this noble lord and prisoner at the bar is guilty thereof , you are to enquire , and without all doubt will give a clear verdict , according to justice and honour . lord high stew. my lords , you have heard the evidence of your lordships ; please , to go and consider of it , you may . then the prisoner withdrew into his own apartment , with the lieutenant of the tower. the lords went into a room behind the court of chancery , and after a stay of two hours , return'd , and being all sate ; the earl of danby , lord high treasurer of england , who was the first of the jury , addressed himself to my lord high steward , and said ; earl of danby . my lord high steward ; there is a question in law , of which some of my lords desire to receive satisfaction , before they can give in their full verdict : acd we desire to know of your grace , whether it be proper here to ask the question of your grace , or to propose it to the judges . lord h. stew. if your lordships doubt of any thing , whereon a question in law ariseth , the latter opinion , and the better for the prisoner is , that it must be stated in the presence of the prisoner , that he may know whether the question be truly put . it hath sometimes been practised otherwise ; and the peers have sent for the judges , and have asked their opinion in private , and have come back , and given their verdict , according to that opinion ; and there is scarce a president of its being otherwise done ; but there is a latter authority in print , that doth settle the point so as i tell you ; and i do conceive it ought to be followed ; and it being safer for the prisoner , my humble opinion to your lordships , is , that he ought to be present at the stating of the question . call the prisoner to the bar. who being come , my lord spake thus to him : lord high steward . my lord conwallis , my lords the peers , since they have withdrawn , have conceived a doubt , in some matter of law arising upon the matter of fact in your case ; and they have that tender regard of a prisoner at the bar , that they will not suffer a case to be put up in his absence , lest it should chance to prejudice him , by being wrong stated ; therefore , your lordship will do well , to attend the question that is raised ; and , my lords , will you please to propound your doubts ? it was taken notice of here , that by opening the matter by mr. solicitor , the matter of murder was explained , to be meant by having a prepensed malice , and in that case it was opened to us , that any persons then present , and that had in any sort contributed to the disorders , they were as equally guilty , as they whose hand had shed the blood of the person killed . now the doubt of some of my lords is , whether if it be found but man-slaughter , those are equally guilty , that are present ( and have proved to contribute to the disturbance ) of that crime , as they are in murder ; because some of them have not the satisfaction that they are the same . lord high steward . my lords the judges , i take it , the doubt proposed to you , is this ; whether or no , those that are present , and have contributed to the disorders , whereby such an accident doth ensue , as proves to be man-slaughter , be as culpable , as he that doth the immediate fact , as it is in the case of murder ? after a little pause and conference , the judges returned this answer . judges . we have had conference of this case , and our humble opinion is , if sundry persons be together , aiding and assisting to an action , wherein a man-slaughter doth ensue , as in case of a sudden business without malice prepensed , they are equally guilty with the man-slaughter , as they are in the case of murder prepensed . earl of danby . the lords desire to withdraw once more , which they did , and after a short space returned ; and being called over , answered to their names , and all appearing , my lord high steward , took their verdict seriatim , beginning at the puisne lord in the following orders , they answering , standing bare with their hands on their breasts . lord high steward . my lord duras , is charles lord conwallis guilty of the felony and murder , whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? lord duras , not guilty . the same question he demanded of each ; who answered thus : my lord butler , not guilty . lord _____ not guilty . lord maynard , not guilty of murder , but guilty of man-slaughter . lord paget , not guilty . lord berkly , not guilty of murder , but guilty of man-slaughter . lord newport , not guilty . lord hallifax , not guilty . lord viscount cambden , not guilty . lord guilford not guilty . lord alisbury , not guilty of murder , but guilty of man-slaughter . lord craven , not guilty . lord bath , not guilty . lord clarendon , not guilty . lord sunderland , not guilty . lord peterborough , not guilty . lord devonshire , not guilty . lord northampton , not guilty . lord bridgwater , not guilty . lord dorset , not guilty . lord suffolk , not guilty . lord bedford , not guilty . lord derby , not guilty . lord kent , not guilty . lord oxford , not guilty . lord arlington , not guilty . lord brereton , not guilty . lord lindsey , not guilty of murder , but of man-slaughter . lord dorchester , not guilty . lord anglesey , not guilty of murder , but of man-slaughter . lord danby , not guilty of murder , but of man-slaughter . lord high steward . call the prisoner to the bar. then the prisoner came to the bar , and the deputy lieutenant of the tower held the edge of the axe towards him , while my lord high steward spake thus unto him , lord high steward . my lord conwallis , you have been indicted for murder , pleaded not guilty , put your self upon your peers ; and your peers upon consideration of the whole matter , have acquitted you , and found you not guilty , so you are to be discharged . cl. cr. make proclamation . serj. o yes , my lord high steward of england willeth and commandeth all persons , to depart hence in gods peace and the kings ; for my lord high steward of , england his grace doth dissolve his commission . god save the king. at which words my lord high steward holding the white staff ( which was delivered him by the usher of the black rod on his knees ) in both hands over his head , snapt it in two , and the assembly broke up . finis notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e sanders case in plowden , fol. . anno h. . coke , inst . fol. . cooke inst fol. , . pasch . . hen. earl of danby . the tryal and condemnation of sir john friend, knight for conspiring to raise rebellion in these kingdoms : in order to a french invasion : who upon full evidence was found guilty of high-treason at the sessions-house in the old bayly, march th, / . friend, john, sir, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and condemnation of sir john friend, knight for conspiring to raise rebellion in these kingdoms : in order to a french invasion : who upon full evidence was found guilty of high-treason at the sessions-house in the old bayly, march th, / . friend, john, sir, d. . [ ], [i.e. ] p. printed for brabazon aylmer ..., london : m dc xcvi [ ] contains numerous errors in pagination. reproduction of original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng friend, john, -- sir, d. . william -- iii, -- king of england, - -- assassination attempt, . parkyns, william, -- sir, ?- . trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal and condemnation of sir iohn friend , knight . for conspiring to raise rebellion in these kingdoms , in order to a french invasion : who upon full evidence was found guilty of high-treason , at the sessions-house in the old bayly , march th / . london , printed for brabazon aylmer , at the three pigeons over against the royal exchange in cornhil , mdcxcvi . the tryal of sir john friend , k nt . on monday the th . of march , / , at the sessions-house in the old bayly . proclamation for silence , and attendance upon the sessions being made , as usual , the court proceeded to call the jury impannell'd , and to the tryal of the prisoner . clerk of the crown . set sir john friend to the bar. sir john friend , hold up your hand . sir. j. friend , my lord , mr. william courtney is my principal witness , and is now in the gate-house , and i humbly move your lordship he may be sent for . l. c. j. h. is he your witness ? what is his christian name ? why did you not desire this before ? sir j. friend , my lord , i did not hear of him till last night , and i humbly beseech your lordship , that you would be pleas'd to let him be sent for . l. c. j. h. i will tell you what you shall have ; if you will appoint your agent to come , he shall have an habeas corpus ad testificandum , and he shall be sent for . you might have sent to me this morning , and he might have been sent for . sir j. friend , i did not know it till last night . l. c. j. h. you shall have a habeas corpus ad testificandum ; make what hast you can , you shall have a habeas corpus . sir j. friend , my lord , be pleased to give a rule of court. l. c. j. h. that can't be , it must be a habeas corpus ad testificandum . sir j. friend , it will be a long time before he can come , and i desire nothing but — l. c. j. h. it shall be ready presently . sir j. friend , if it may be — it will be a great prejudice to me if he be not here . l. c. j. h. i believe it will be time enough . sir j. friend , supposing it should not be , it will be a great prejudice to me . l. c. j. h. we are not in such haste , we don't spur you on . sir j. friend , i beg your lordships pardon , i am not — l. c. j. h. officer , make a writ of habeas corpus ad testificandum . what is his name , james courtney ? sir j. friend , william courtney . l. c. j. h. give him his christian name . sir j. friend , william courtney , my lord. l. c. j. h. let him go with it to the crown-office immediately , and bring the writ sealed , and i will sign it . cl. of the cr. sir john friend , hold up thy hand , you stand indicted by the name of sir john friend , knight . the indictment . london , ss . the jurors , &c. present . that whereas an open , notorious , publick and cruel war for a great time hath been , and yet is carried on and prosecuted by land and by sea by lewis the french king , against the most serene , illustrious and excellent prince , our lord , william the third , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france and ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c. during all which time the said lewis the french king , and his subjects , were , and yet are enemies of our said sovereign lord the king , and his subjects , one john friend , late of london , knight , a subject of this kingdom of england , well knowing the premisses , not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance . but moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , as a false traytor against the said most serene and excellent prince , william the third now king of england , &c. his supream , true , natural and vndoubted lord , the cordial love , and true and due obedience and allegiance which every subject of our said lord the king towards him doth bear , and of right ought to bear , withdrawing and intending to extinguish , and minding , and with all his strength designing and endeavouring the government of this kingdom of england , under him of right duely and happily established , altogether to subvert , change and alter , and his faithful subjects and freemen of this kingdom of england to subjugate and enthrall , in an intolerable and miserable servitude to the french king , on the first of july , in the seventh year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king , and divers other dayes and times , as well before as afterwards , at london , in the parish of st. peters cornhill , &c. falsly , maliciously , devilishly and traiterously , did compass , imagine , contrive and intend , our said sovereign lord the king that now is , then his supream , true , natural and lawful lord , of and from his kingly state , title , honour , power , crown imperial and government of this kingdom of england , to depose and altogether deprive ; and our said lord the king , to death and final destruction to bring , and to move , stir up , procure and aid the said lewis the french king by armies , souldiers , and his subjects , to invade , fight with , overcome and subdue this kingdom of england , and to make and cause a miserable slaughter amongst the faithful subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , throughout his whole kingdom : and he the said john friend , to the said enemies of our said sovereign lord the king , then and there , during the war aforesaid , was traiterously adhering and aiding ; and to the same most wicked and devilish treasons , and traiterous compassings , intentions and purposes aforesaid , to fulfil , perfect and bring to effect , and in prosecution , performance and execution of that traiterous adhesion , he the said john friend , as such a false traitor during the war aforesaid , to wit , on the said first day of july in the year aforesaid , at london , in the parish and ward aforesaid , and divers other dayes and times , as well before as afterwards , there and elsewhere in london aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , advisedly and traiterously , and with force and arms with one robert charnock , lately convicted and attainted of high treason , in contriving and conspiring the death of our said sovereign lord the king , and with divers other false traytors , to the jurors aforesaid unknown , did meet , propose , consult , consent and agree , to procure from the said lewis the french king , of his subjects , forces and souldiers , then and yet enemies of our said sovereign lord the king , great numbers of souldiers and armed men to invade this kingdom of england ; and to levy , procure and prepare great numbers of armed men , and troops , and companies , against our said sovereign lord the king , to be raised and formed ; and with those enemies , to and upon such invasion and ingress into this kingdom of england , to joyn and unite rebellion and war against our said sovereign lord the king , within this kingdom of england , to make , levy , and carry on , to depose our said sovereign lord the king , and him to kill and murder : and further , with those said false traytors , on the said first of july in the year aforesaid , at london , in the parish and ward aforesaid , traiterously did consult , consent and agree , to send the said robert charnock , as a messenger from him the said john friend , and the said other traytors , to the jurors unknown , to and into the kingdom of france , in parts beyond the seas , to james the second , late king of england , to propose to him , and desire him to obtain of the said french king the souldiers and armed men aforesaid , for the invasion aforesaid to be made , and to give and deliver to the said king james , and other the said enemies and their adherents , intelligence and notice of such their traiterous intentions and adhesion , and all other the premisses ; and to inform them of all other particular matters and circumstances referring thereunto : and also to receive intelligence from them of the said intended invasion , and other things and circumstances concerning the premisses ; and to signifie , report and declare the same to the said john friend , and the said other traytors in this kingdom of england , for their assistance , incouragement and aid of the said enemies of our said sovereign lord the king , in the war aforesaid : and to stir up and procure those enemies the more readily and boldly to invade this kingdom of england , the said treasons and traiterous intentions , imaginations and purposes of the said john friend to perfect and bring to pass : and the more easily to execute , carry on and perform all the premisses , he the said john friend , during the war aforesaid , so as aforesaid , continued , to wit on the first of july , in the seventh year aforesaid , at london , in the parish and ward aforesaid , falsly and traiterously did procure and obtain , and received and had a commission or writing , purporting a commission under and from the said james the second , late king of england , to constitute him the said john friend to be a colonel of horse , in the army to be levyed and formed within this kingdom of england , by him and other false traytors against our said sovereign lord the king. and in prosecution of the said pretended commission , by him the said john friend so obtained and accepted , and the said treasons , and all the traiterous intentions aforesaid , the sooner to be executed , performed and fulfilled , he the said john friend afterwards , to wit , the said first of july , in the seventh year aforesaid , at london , in the parish and ward aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , advisedly , privately and traiterously , divers soldiers and men armed , and ready to be armed , with force and arms to rise and fight ; and war and rebellion against our said sovereign lord the king within this kingdom of england , to make and carry on ; and to and with the said enemies of our said sovereign lord the king , foreigners and strangers , subjects and souldiers of the said lewis the french king , invading this kingdom of england , to and upon their invasion and entry into this kingdom of england , then shortly to be expected , and together with him the said john friend to be joyned and united ; and in troops and companies to be formed , did levy , list and retain , and caused to be levyed , listed and retained , and divers sums of money in and about the levying , listing and retaining the said soldiers , and men armed and ready to be armed for the purposes aforesaid , on the said first of july , in the seventh year aforesaid , at london aforesaid , falsly , maliciously and traiterously , did give and pay , and cause to be paid ; and those soldiers and men , the traiterous intentions and purposes aforesaid , ●hen and long after had in readiness . and also on the said first of july , in the year aforesaid , at london aforesaid , divers horses , and very many arms , blunderbusses , muskets , pistols , swords and rapiers , and other warlike things and instruments , falsly , maliciously , secretly and traiterously , he did buy , gather together , and procure , and caused to be bought , gathered together , obtained and procured , and in his custody had and retained , with intentions to use the same in the ●aid invasion , war and rebellion against our said soveraign lord the king , to depose , throw down , and deprive our said sovereign lord the king , of and from his kingly state , crown and throne of this kingdom of england , and him to kill and murder : and all the other traiterous intentions and purposes of him the said sir john friend to fulfil , perfect and fully to bring to effect against the duty of his allegiance , against the peace , &c. and against the form of the statute 〈◊〉 such case made and provided , &c. how say you sir john friend , art thou guilty of the high treason whereof thou stand● indicted or not guilty ? sir j. friend , not guilty . cl. of the cr. how wilt thou be try'd ? sir j. friend , by god and the countrey . cl. of the cr. god send you a good deliverance . sir j. friend , amen , i do not question it . then the clerk of the crown began to call over the jury . sir j. friend , my lord , i have some thing to move , if your lordship please : my lord , if any matter of law doth arise , i humbly move that i may be heard by counsel , that i may not be destroyed without law. l. c. j. h. if any matter of law doth arise on the tryal , and you tell us what that matter of law is , if the court sees it a matter of doubt , the court can assign you counsel . sir j. friend , my lord , i am no lawyer ; i hope as your lordship is of counsel for the king , so you will please to be so for me , for i am no lawyer , and know not whether it be matter of law or not ; so i beseech your lordship to tell me if it be law or not law. l. c. j. h. we are bound to tell you so , and to be indifferent between the king and the prisoner , and to let you have all the benefit of the law possible , and will do so . sir j. friend , i do not question it , my lord. cl. of the cr. cryer , make proclamation . cryer , oyes , oyes , oyes , you jury-men , &c. cl. of the cr. sir john friend , hold up thy hand ; you the prisoner at the bar , those men that you shall hear called and personally appear are to pass between our sovereign lord the king , and you , upon tryal of your life and death ; if therefore you will challenge them , or either of them , your time is to challenge them as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . sir j. friend , my lord , how many may i challenge ? l. c. j. h. you may challenge , that is , except against thirty five , without shewing any cause ; if you have good cause against any more , you may refuse them . sir j. friend , it may be , my lord , i may mistake , i desire of your lordship that i may have timely notice of the five and thirty . l. c. j. h. you shall know it . then the jury were sworn , whose names were as followeth , thomas clerke . thomas emms. henry hunter . thomas poole . peter parker . samuel jackson . nathaniel long. john child . william walker . john sherbrooke . william prince . joseph moorewood . then the usual proclamation for information was made , and those who were summon'd to be of the jury , and not sworn , were discharged . cl. of the cr. sir john friend , hold up thy hand ; you gentlemen that are sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause : he stands indicted by the name of sir john friend , knt. as in the indictment ( mutatis mutandis ) and against the statute in that case made and provided . upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto pleaded not guilty ; and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and his countrey ; which countrey you are : your charge is to inquire , whether he is guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or , not guilty . if you find him guilty , you are to inquire what goods and chattels , lands , and tenements he had at the time of the high treason committed , or at any time since . if you find him not guilty , you are to inquire , whether he fled for it ; if you find he fled for it , you are to inquire of his goods and chattels , as if you had found him guilty : if you find him not guilty , nor that he fled for it , you are to say so , and no more , and hear your evidence . mr. mountague , king's counsel . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; this is an indictment of high treason brought against the prisoner at the bar , sir john friend , for associating himself with , and aiding of the king's enemies , for procuring an invasion from france , in order to depose his majesty king william : and in order to effect these his wicked and traiterous purposes , the indictment sets forth , that the prisoner at the bar , sir john friend , upon the first of july last did meet and agree with my lord ailesbury , my lord montgomery , mr. chernock , sir william parkins , sir john fenwick , and coke ; and there they did agree among themselves how they should procure an army from france to come and invade this kingdom ; and that they would raise a considerable number of men to facilitate the landing of the french forces . the indictment charges the prisoner in particular with agreeing to send mr. chernock as a messenger to the late king james , to inform him of this their design , and also for the obtaining and procuring a commission from the late king james , to constitute him a colonel of horse for the raising of a regiment , to procure the said forces . it doth charge him likewise with laying out and expending several sums , in listing and keeping several men in a readiness to be souldiers in his regiment , and for buying several arms and horses to be made use of in this intended rebellion . the prisoner to this hath pleaded not guilty . we will produce our witnesses , and we doubt not you will see cause to find him guilty . silence being proclaimed , the king's attorney general open'd the indictment thus . mr. attorney general , sir tho. trevor . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner at the bar , sir john friend knight , stands indicted of high treason , for compassing and imagining the death and destruction of the king , and likewise for adhering to the king's enemies . gentlemen , the overt-acts laid in this indictment for the proving the treason , are , that the prisoner did accept of a commission from the late king james for raising a regiment of horse in this kingdom , in order to join with the french forces when they should invade it ; and that there were several meetings and consultations between him and several other persons , in which it was resolved to send a messenger , ( viz. ) mr. chernock , into france , to desire of the late king james that he would prevail with the french king to send a number of men from france to come over and to invade this kingdom ; and to assure him that he with others would be assisting upon the said invasion , with a good number of men and horses , when they came ; and that he did accordingly raise men , and provide several arms ; that he listed the men , and had them in readiness , to join with the french forces when the invasion should be . these are the overt acts laid in the indictment ; the evidence to be produced to prove the treason and overt-acts , will be in this manner . gentlemen , you will see by the evidence that there hath been a design and conspiracy on foot for several years to assassinate the king's person , and to have an invasion from france at that time by an armed force here to subdue this kingdom . the prisoner at the bar about two years ago had a commission sent him from the late king james to raise a regiment of horse , which he accepted of : there were several other commissions likewise sent to the prisoner , and he did in pursuance thereof appoint his several officers , and listed several men for that purpose , and expended several sums of money for the retaining of them . that his lieut. colonel was to be one brice blair , and for his major one sclater : this sclater , it seems , his father had been a clergy-man , and he did engage to bring in men into his troop that were clergy-men , who refused to take the oaths ; one of his captains was to be one everard , another was to be one richardson , with several other officers which he had engaged in the design , with which he had appointed to make up his regiment . gentlemen , you will hear further by the witnesses that about may or june last , they having raised a considerable number of men that were ready here , there were several meetings that were had between the prisoner at the bar , and several other persons , in order to send one over , in order to procure force from france to invade this kingdom . the first meeting you will hear of , was at the old king's head tavern in leadenhall-street ; there were present the prisoner at the bar , my lord ailesbury , my lord montgomery , _____ pelling , sir john fenwick , charnock , ( who was lately executed ) porter , and one cook , at that meeting . you shall hear what the debates were , and what was the resolution , and that was to send over charnock : several debates there were among them who to send ; at last it was resolved to send over charnock to france to propose to the late king james their design , and to desire of him to prevail with the french king to furnish and send foot , horse , and dragoons ; and impowered him to assure the late king james , that whensoever he should land with those forces , they would be ready to join him , and assist him with near horse ; among them they undertook to do so much : accordingly this charnock did undertake to go upon this message : about a week after they were to meet again , for charnock was unwilling to go on such an errand , without having an assurance from them that they still continued in their resolution taken up , for acquainting king james what they would do ; and about a week after they met at mrs. montjoy's a tavern , where were the prisoner at the bar , with those of the same company as before ; and mr. charnock did desire to know of them whether they did still agree to what had been proposed and resolved on before , that so he might not go on this errand , without very good assurance that they did all agree to assure the late king james that they would assist him upon his landing ▪ if they had but notice of his landing , when and where he would land ; and withal , they desired that he would make haste . and observe , gentlemen , the time of this meeting was may or june last , as soon as the king was gone to flanders ; and they thought this a very fit opportunity when the king was gone , and the forces drawn out of england to flanders , and very few forces in england , and therefore a very proper reason for the invasion to be made . mr. charnock went over accordingly to france , and about a month after returned again , and told them that he had acquainted the late king james with the resolution that had been taken here , and that the late king james told him that he thanked them for their readiness to assist him ; but that at that time the french king could not spare any men , so that at that time their design could not be accomplished ; therefore it was respited till last winter , and last winter you will hear their design was renew'd again ; and about january last , sir george berclay came over from france with several troopers , pretending to be discharg'd ; and they entred into a conspiracy to assassinate the king , and to prepare for an invasion ; that was to be done first , to facilitate the invasion , which was immediately to follow upon it ; and they thought they should not have a good assurance of success so long as the king lived : and i hope every body will take notice how precious that life is to be accounted of by us when the success of their conspiracy depended upon the taking that life away . gentlemen , you will hear this design of assassinating the king , the prisoner at the bar was acquainted with , but did not approve of it , for he thought it would be a disservice to the late king james's affairs ; but he was at the meeting with those conspirators , charnock and berclay , and others , and got acquainted with it , as you will hear . you will hear further , that about january last , when the invasion was intended to be made , the prisoner had frequent meetings with this blair his lieut. colonel , and other his officers , to consider how to prepare and be in a readiness ; at that time blair , and the prisoner , and captain richardson met at a place in exchange-alley , and there were discourses among them ; and blair said there was a very considerable roman catholick sent over to the late king james , and he would bring the last orders from him ; and sir john friend said , he knew very well of it that it was so , that he should have these orders quickly . at another time this blair and the prisoner sir john friend , met at jonathan's coffee-house , and from thence he took him in his coach along with him , and there they had great consultations about the affairs of his regiment : and the prisoner told him , that they must be good husbands of their money , for if this invasion should miscarry , he should not have money enough to carry on his trade : that he would take care to mount many officers that could do it themselves , but many of them could not do it at their own charge ; and those who could not do it , he would take care to do it for them . they had then a discourse of the thoulon-fleet coming about , and that it was thought proper not to stir nor make any appearance till the thoulon-fleet came about : and the prisoner said , he would not put his foot into the stirrup till then , but would keep it private , lest they should be seized ; and that he would skulk about till every thing was in a readiness , and advised blair to do so too . and you will hear it further proved , that about may last the prisoner did pay l. to this blair , to reimburse him what money he had laid out on the affairs of his regiment ; and it was in this manner , they had all heard that parker was in the tower for high treason , and that he had made his escape , to which the prisoner at the bar was privy , and that it had cost l. and that the prisoner had laid down an hundred pounds of it ; but this was paid in order to be paid him again , and was assured by one johnson a priest , that he would see him paid , and accordingly one piggott went over to france , and that piggott had the l. paid him again by the late king james , to repay sir john friend ; but when he came back , piggott thought fit to keep it , and sir john friend durst not ask him for it , because of the advantage the other might take upon him , so did not dare insist upon it . but when blair press'd him for money that he had laid out upon the regiment , he told him that this piggott had received an hundred pounds , which he had laid down upon the account of parker , and that he ought to pay it him , but had refused so to do ; and therefore , says he , if you will prevail with this johnson the priest , who was obliged to see me paid , to get this pound paid me accordingly ; you shall have of the pound : and thereupon blair did prevail with johnson to assist in the getting this pound from piggott , and then the pound was paid to blair by piggott , at the desire of sir john friend , and upon the solicitation of johnson . these sums you will find were paid by sir john friend to capt. blair , who was his lieut. colonel , and to whom he intrusted the management of the regiment in great measure . gentlemen , i have opened to you the substance of the evidence against the prisoner , and i hope you will take care to observe from the evidence to rectify any mistake of mine . mr. solicitor general . mr. attorney hath opened all this matter very fully to you , and we will call our witnesses to prove the matter in the manner that hath been opened . call mr. porter . sir j. friend . my lord , before capt. porter is sworn , i desire to know whether he be a roman catholick or a protestant . l. c. j. h. why do you desire to know that ? sir j. friend . i beg your lordship's pardon , i desire to know whether he be a roman catholick or a protestant . l. c. j. h. if he be a roman catholick , it is no objection against his evidence : is not a roman catholick a good evidence ? sir j. friend . i desire to know whether he be a roman catholick or no ? a man ought to know . pray my lord — . l. c. j. h. will you ask him , whether he be a christian ? sir j. friend . i desire to know whether he be a roman catholick or a protestant ? l. c. j. h. it is not a proper question . sir j. friend . pray my lord , i beg your lordship , i beg that favour . mr. sol. gen. the answer to that question is to accuse himself . l. c. j. h. the question is , whether it be your right or no to know that ? sir j. friend . i desire to know that , for i would not do any thing that might offend the court in the least . l. c. j. h. the question is improper in it self , and an improper time to move it . sir j. friend . i beseech your lordship — . l. c. j. h. the question ( i say ) is improper in it self , and an improper time to move it , i can't see you have a right to ask it : if capt. porter will answer it , it must be voluntary . sir j. friend . as you are a gentleman , i desire to know , mr. porter , whether you are a roman catholick . mr. porter . i am not bound to accuse my self , i am a witness . l. c. j. h. i told you the question was improper ; you shall have right done you : but if he be a roman catholick , he is a good witness ; his religion and being a roman catholick may subject him to several penalties , and make him liable to be prosecuted by several acts of parliament ; and no man is to answer any question that may indanger him coming under the penalty of any law , or to accuse himself . sir j. friend . i do with submission desire it , it is no great matter for him to say whether he be a papist or a protestant . l. c. j. h. if so , you need not ask it . sir j. friend . my lord , i beg your lordship , i beg it . l. c. j. h. you have my opinion , and i think the question is not to be answered . l. c. j. treby . it is his lordship's pleasure that i do deliver my opinion ; and it is , that no man is bound to answer a question that tends to subject him to the penalty of any law. if you ask him whether he be a deer-stealer , or a vagabond , or guilty of petit-larcenary , the law will not force a man to discover it against himself . now for the purpose , whether he be a popish recusant , if he were not trained up in that religion , it is to ask him to accuse himself of as great a crime as you stand charged for : but if it were only that he were a roman catholick , there are very great penalties and forfeitures that he is liable to in his estate , and perhaps without his confession can't otherwise be proved against him . we must keep the law even and steady between the prisoner and the witness . by the law he is not bound to discover . mr. justice nevill . i am of opinion , his confession that he is a roman catholick doth subject him to a penalty ; and unless he doth voluntarily answer of himself , he is not bound to make answer and accuse himself . mr. justice rokesby . i am of opinion , it is not a question that can , of right , be imposed upon him as necessary to be answered : he may if he will answer it , but he is under no obligation , for his confession doth subject him to crimes for which he may be prosecuted . cl. cr. swear mr. porter . mr. sol. gen. mr. porter , do you know sir john friend ? mr. porter . yes , sir. mr. sol. gen. do you give an account to the court what you know of him about the invasion . mr. porter . about the latter end of may last , or the beginning of june , we had two meetings , one at the old king's head in leadenhall-street , and one at mrs. montjoys : there were present at it my lord ailesbury , my lord montgomery , sir john friend , sir william parkins , mr. chernock , sir john fenwick , my self , and one cook , i don't know his christian name : after dinner mr. goodman came in . at both these meetings it was consulted and agreed , to send mr. chernock over to france , to invite the late king james to come over to england , and to prevail with the french king to furnish him with men , viz. foot , horse , and dragoons . mr. chernock made this reply , i don't care to go on a foolish message , and therefore let me know what you promise to do . whereupon all of them did promise , that every one would endeavour to come in to assist at the invasion with a body of horse , where-ever he would appoint . that meeting was upon a monday . — we had two meetings . mr. sol. gen. you say there were two meetings , pray how long afterwards was it before you had the second meeting ? what , was the second meeting to confirm the first ? mr. porter . chernock did tell me , he was to go in or days after the second meeting . mr. sol. gen. what was the occasion of the second meeting . mr. porter . chernock did desire that we might meet , that he might see if we were all agreed in our resolution . mr. sol. gen. what do you know of a commission for sir john friend to raise a regiment of horse ? mr. porter . i know nothing of it , but as i did hear from peoples talk : i did hear him say , he would be as ready as any man , when the time came ; but i did hear from mr. chernock , and sir william parkins , that he had a commission . mr. sol. gen. but was the prisoner at the bar present at the second meeting ? mr. porter . he was at the second meeting . l. c. j. h. but what were their names ? those who were present at the second meeting , mr. porter . mr. porter . i was at the second meeting , the prisoner at the bar was there ; i can't tell whether montgomery or goodman were there , but the prisoner at the bar was there at both meetings . l. c. j. h. pray remember and recollect your self : who was there at the first meeting ? mr. porter . would you have me name them , my lord ? — there was my lord aylsbury , and my lord montgomery , sir john friend , sir william perkins , sir john fenwick , mr. charnock , mr. cook , and my self : we dined there , and after dinner goodman came in . mr. sol. gen. mr. porter , when saw you charnock afterward ? mr. porter . i never saw him 'till three or four days after i was taken about the riot , and he told me he had been in france , and that he had spoken with the late king james ; who told him that the french king could not spare so many men that year . and that he had been with my lord aylsbury , my lord montgomery , sir john friend , &c. with that message from the late king ; so he told me . mr. sol. gen. pray give an account what meetings sir john friend hath been at last winter ? mr. porter . at the nagg's-head-tavern in james's - street . i was another time with sir george berclay , and sir john friend ; i can't tell what discourse they had , for they whispered together ; there were no publick discourses that i heard . there were sir george berclay , sir william perkins , my self , mr. ferguson , and one homes , at the naggs-head in james's - street . mr. attor . gen. was there any body else there ? mr. porter . mr. charnock came in after dinner , and one harrison . mr. attor . gen. what is he ? mr. porter . he is reputed a roman priest . mr. attor . gen. what was that meeting for ? mr. porter . i don't know what that meeting was for . mr. attor . gen. what did you discourse of ? mr. porter . there were several whisperings in the room , but i know not what they were about . one time sir george berclay told me , that some people , not so violent , wrote over to king james to stop this business ; then you will have no letters to night , said sir john friend . if any thing be hid from me behind the curtain , i am not fairly dealt withall , and i will proceed no further . l. c. j. h. mr. porter , i will ask you this question ; did all that were present at the first meeting at the king 's - head in leaden-hall-street , agree to send charnock to the late king james into france at the second meeting ? mr. porter . yes , my lord , all of us did at the second meeting . we desired mr. charnock to assure for us to the late king james , that we would all meet him at his landing , at the head of horse . l. c. j. h. did sir john friend agree to it ? mr. porter . yes , my lord , positively at the second meeting at james's - street . l. c. j. h. what was said there ? mr. porter . my lord , we did all agree that captain charnock should go over with that message we agreed on at the first meeting ; and he was to go over in two or three days . sir j. friend . i would ask him if he hath done , and hath no more to say ? mr. porter . i have no more to say . mr. attor . gen. now call blair . l. c. j. h. what answer did charnock bring back ? mr. porter . he told me the french king could not spare so many men that year . mr. attor . gen. swear blair . do you know the prisoner at the bar ? mr. blair . i am sorry to come on this account , sir john , with all my heart . mr. attor . gen. give an account mr. blair of what you know of sir john friend's commission to raise forces , and what was done upon the whole matter ; turn your face that way , and the jury will hear you the better . mr. blair . all is true what i writ in my papers . mr. soll. gen. all is true ! you must tell now what you know . mr. blair . i saw the commission , and i read it . l. c. j. h. what commission was it ? mr. blair . it was a commission from king james , to sir john friend . mr. attor . gen. pray did you see it ? mr. blair . i saw it at his lodging in the strand . mr. attor . gen. whose lodgings ? mr. blair . at his lodgings in the strand , in surry-street . mr. attor . gen. who shew'd you the commission ? mr. blair . he shewed it me himself . mr. attor . gen. what was it for ? mr. blair . for raising a regiment of horse for the king's service . mr. attor . gen. how long ago ? mr. blair . it is very near a year ago , or there abouts . mr. attor . gen. who was to be colonel of the regiment ? mr. blair . he was nominated colonel himself . l. c. j. h. who was the commission to ? mr. blair . to sir john friend . mr. attor . gen. pray give account what was done upon it , and what officers he did appoint ? mr. blair . he promised to make me lieutenant colonel . mr. attor . gen. what other officers ? mr. blair . sir john told me one richardson was to be one of his captains , and i brought one fisher to him , and he was to be one of his eldest captains . mr. attor . gen. who else was the other officer , can you remember ? mr. blair . one captain evans told me he was to be captain lieutenant , and one vernatti was to be a captain . mr. attor . gen. do you remember who was to be his major ? mr. blair . i think he was not positive himself who should be his major ; but afterwards i spoke with captain barnesley , who had been a lieutenant in king james's service , a lieutenant of horse ; sometimes he accepted of it , and sometimes he refused it . mr. attor . gen. what did you do as lieutenant colonel ? mr. blair . i endeavoured all i could to get officers for him , who would bring in troopers . mr. attor . gen. you must speak out . mr. blair . i endeavour it , i am so ill i cannot ; i endeavoured all i could to get officers for him that could raise troopers , and i endeavoured to get what men i could get my self . mr. attor . gen. and what did you get , what officers did you procure for him ? mr. blair . i have told you . mr. attor . gen. one vernatti , fisher , and one mr. hall a merchant at deal . mr. blair . all is down in my papers . mr. attor . gen. pray sir , what troopers ? did you engage any persons to be troopers ? mr. blair . i my self ? sir , yes , sir. mr. attor . gen. can you name any of them ? mr. blair . yes , in my papers . mr. attor . gen. if you have any papers about you , you may use them to refresh your memory . mr. blair . i have none , but all is down in my papers that i signed before the council . bertram was to be my lieutenant . mr. montague . you say you were constituted a lieutenant colonel ; who made you so ? mr. blair . i had only the promise of sir john friend . mr. attor . gen. but did you lay out any mony ? or did sir john friend pay you any mony for this service ? pray give an account of it . mr. blair . yes , i had several small sums of mony of him . mr. attor . gen. what was it for ? mr. blair . it was to encourage , and drink with the men to encourage them . mr. attor . gen. but did piggot pay you any mony , and by whose order ? mr. blair . yes , sir. mr. attor . gen. pray give an account of that . mr. blair . he paid me first twenty pound , and then twenty pound more . mr. attor . gen. by whose order ? mr. blair . by sir john friend's order . mr. attor . gen. how do you know sir john friend ordered him to pay you ? mr. blair . because it was on account of mony he had once parted with to facilitate parker's escape out of the tower. mr. attor . gen. how do you know sir john friend advanced any mony toward that escape ? mr. blair . he told me so himself . mr. attor . gen. how much ? mr. blair . a hundred pound . mr. attor . gen. what did he say of that pound , how he was to be paid it again ? mr. blair . he told me king james had ordered the payment of it in france , at st. germains , when piggot went over , and that i think he went over immediately afterward , that he did receive it , and when he came over , he refused to pay it him , and so he never had it , but only that pound as i can learn. mr. attor . gen. how much ? mr. blair . that . and pound more . mr. attor . gen. did sir john friend tell you so ? mr. blair . yes , that he had received pound , but he would not pay it him ; but if i could get so much mony of him , he would allow it me out of that hundred pound . mr. attor . gen. when was the first pound paid , about what time ? mr. blair . i set it down in my papers . mr. attor . gen. can't you tell what time it was , last summer , or winter ? mr. blair . it was about the last of may , or june . mr. soll. gen. that was the first pound , when was the last pound paid ? mr. blair . the last pound was paid when i was sick , after michaelmas . mr. attor . gen. who was by when the last pound was paid ? mr. blair . mr. piggot paid me five pounds : i had it at several payments , at jonathan's coffee-house ; five pounds of it the last of the twenty pound , the other at two or three payments besides . mr. attor . gen. do you know any thing of sir john friend's receiving a letter from the late king james ? mr. blair . yes , he told me he had . mr. attor . gen. when was it ? mr. blair . truly sir i can't tell you that . mr. attor . gen. was it within twelve months past ? mr. blair . yes , i believe it was . sir j. friend . i can't hear half what he says . mr. blair . sir john , you told me you receiv'd a letter from the late k. james . sir j. friend . my lord , i can't hear what he says . mr. attor . gen. had you at any time any discourse with sir john friend about colonel sclater ? mr. blair . yes , he told me sclater was to bring in ten horses , and that he designed to make him lieutenant colonel . he said he would have two lieutenant colonels in his regiment ; and when i was not satisfied with that , sir john friend told me that he should be captain of a troop of non-swearing parsons , for he believed he should have a troop of them , and they should be independent . l. c. j. h. who was to command that troop ? mr. blair . colonel sclater was to command that troop . mr. sol. gen. you say sclater was to command a troop of non-swearing parsons . you say sir j. friend and you met at jonathan's coffee-house . mr. blair . yes , sir , several times i met him there . mr. sol. gen. what discourse had you there ? mr. blair . i called him aside to speak to him , and it was when mr. fisher was there . l. c. j. h. turn your face that way . mr. blair . i called him out and desired to speak with him , a little before the horrid conspiracy broke out , and told him what i heard from fisher about the discovery ; and harrison the priest and he told me they had heard of it , and were afraid it would ruine king james in his affairs . mr. attor . gen. what was that conspiracy ? mr. blair . this last horrid assassination . mr. attor . gen. was it the conspiracy against the king's life , and seizing the king ? was it before it broke out that he told you so ? mr. blair . yes , sir , before it broke out ; and very shortly before it broke out . mr. attor . gen. you say you met sir john friend , and he took you into his coach ? mr. blair . yes , he took me in his coach to st. martins le grand , and said , he would do nothing till the thoulon fleet met the brest fleet ; and by that time , says he , we shall be all taken up , and you may skulk about the town better than i : you must be a very good husband of your money , for money will be very scarce : what do you think will mount you , said he ? i can't tell , said i ; that is according as i am mounted . i will mount , said he , but few indigent officers . that was the most material that past at that time . mr. attor . gen. what was you to do when you were to skulk about ? mr. blair . there is the letter from sir john friend for the last pound . mr. attor . gen. is that his own hand ? mr. blair . i think so . mr. attor . gen. what have you heard sir joh. friend speak about sir joh. fenwick ? mr. blair . i have heard him say , he believed he should command the regiment he was engaged in , and that sir john fenwick had four troops of horse in a readiness . mr. attor . gen. for what purpose were these four troops to be in a readiness ? mr. blair . for the descent . mr. attor . gen. is that sir john friend's hand ? mr. blair . i suppose so , sir. mr. attor . gen. have you seen him write ? mr. blair . yes , sir , i think it is a little like it . jury-man . ask him , if he saw him write the letter . l. c. j. h. did you see him write it ? mr. blair . no. l. c. j. h. he doth not say so . mr. attor . gen. did he ever afterward tell you that he had writ such a letter ? mr. blair . yes , sir. l. c. j. h. read the letter . then the letter was read , which was to this purpose : mr. blair , tuesday morning . sir , you may much wonder you have not received an answer of yours before : i have been afflicted with the gout in my hands and feet , that i have not been able to put pen to paper . i thank god i am now something better . i hope to be in london on thursday next about twelve at jonathan's coffee-house , if the weather don't prevent me ; if not , i shall not come till monday morning . i desire you to meet me at that hour ; for it is not convenient to write a jot more , for some reason i can give you . i am your affectionate friend , john friend . mr. attor . gen. did sir john meet you at that time ? mr. blair . yes , sir. mr. attor . gen. how did that letter come to your hand ? mr. blair . i believe there came one with it when i was a-bed to the door of my lodgings ; my wife brought it up to me ; and i do not know of any other way . mr. attor . gen. did sir john friend afterward meet with you at jonathan's coffee-house ? mr. blair . he did not speak a word of the business . mr. attor . gen. but did he meet with you ? mr. blair . yes , sir ; and accordingly i had the order for pound . mr. attorn . gen. do you remember you dined with sir john friend near the exchange in january last ? mr. blair . yes , i think i did . mr. attor . gen. pray what discourse pass'd between you and him then ? who were then at dinner besides sir john friend and you ? mr. blair . that i must refer to my papers . mr. att. gen. if you can remember what discourse past between sir john friend and you . mr. blair . it is down in my papers ; i am sure it is . mr. att. gen. do you know capt. ridley ? was he with you any time when the prisoner was there ? l. c. j. h. silence in the court : it is a strange thing . pray gentlemen keep silence . sir j. friend . i can't hear one word . l. c. j. h. he speaks of a letter that you sent to him , that bears date on some tuesday , that you would be in town , and meet him some thursday following at twelve a clock : did you hear that ? and he me met you accordingly , and there was order taken for the last l. that was paid him : did you hear that ? sir j. friend . no , my lord. l. c. j. h. go on ; you say you met at the coffee-house : what was done between you and him ? mr. blair . nothing but the order . l. c. j. h. who did he give the order to ? mr. att. gen. vvas harrison there then ? mr. blair . yes , he came before i came away . l. c. j. h. and did sir john friend give you the order ? mr. blair . yes . mr. att. gen. vvhat was the order ? mr. blair . to pay that money . mr. att. gen. how much was the money ? mr. blair . twenty pounds . mr. att. gen. and was it paid afterward ? mr. blair . yes sir , all paid . mr. att. gen. vvho paid it ? mr. blair . mr. piggott came in afterward , and paid me l. before sir john. l. c. j. h. vvas this the first l. or the last ? mr. blair . no , the last . l. c. j. h. vvhat was this money paid to you for ? mr. blair . i believe to support men to go on about the business . l. c. j. h. you believe so ? mr : blair . yes , i am sure it was so . l. c. j. h. did you ever demand any money before ? mr. blair . yes , my lord. l. c. j. h. for what ? mr. blair . i demanded it for drink for the men i was to bring in , to cherish them , and keep them together . mr. just . rokeby . to what purpose was you to drink with them , and cherish them ? bring them into the regiment ? mr. soll. gen. had sir john friend any occasion to pay you any money upon any other account , but that l. ? mr. blair . not that i know of . mr. soll. gen. you don't understand the question . had you any other dealing with sir john friend but concerning the regiment , upon the account of which sir john owed you any money ? mr. blair . no , never in my life . mr. att. gen. do you remember any meeting between sir john and you , when capt. ridley was present ? mr. blair . yes , i remember it was at a chopp-house . mr. att. gen. vvhat discourse had you then ? mr. blair . he said — mr. att. gen. vvho said ? mr. blair . ridley , that there was a gentleman lately gon over to france about ten days before , and that he was a very sensible man , and a roman catholick , about sixty years old ; what he was i can't tell , naming no man. mr. att. gen. vvhat did he go for ? mr. blair . he said he believed he went to receive the last orders . mr. att. gen. vvhat did sir john friend say on that ? mr. blair . sir john friend said he knew not , and said no more . mr. att. gen. vvhat were the effects of that order ? mr. blair . the lord knows , i know not . mr. att. gen. did you know mr. charnock ? mr. blair . yes , i knew him , and met him accidentally last summer , and did not think to see him so soon ; he told me he was come from france ; but who sent him , i don't know upon my life . mr. att. gen. pray have you heard what sir john friend said of mr. ferguson ; was he to be an officer ? mr. blair . i don't know that . sir john friend told me he would joyn him . mr. att. gen. did sir john friend tell you so ? mr. blair . yes sir. mr. att. gen. vvhen did sir john friend tell you so ? mr. blair . a good while ago , two years ago and above sir , as near as i can remember . mr. att. gen. did sir john friend tell you of ferguson's bringing in any men ? mr. blair . yes sir , he said he would bring in a great many . l. c. j. h. sir john friend , will you ask this witness any questions ? sir j. friend . if they have done with him . l. c. j. h. the king's councel have done with him . sir j. friend . my lord , as to a commission , doth he charge me with a commission from k. james ? mr. blair . yes , sir. sir j. friend . i desire to know if it were signed or sealed , or what date it was , whether or years , or years , or when it was ? mr. blair . i can't tell indeed sir john. sir j. friend . but what date was this commission ? mr. blair . i can't tell , but it was in paper , signed above , james rex ; and below , by his majesties command , melford ; and there was a little seal on the margin . sir j. friend . it is the hardest thing in the world , you have charged me with : you were recommended to me for a very honest gentleman ; you have often writ to me , sir , my necessities are very great : you have sent to me several times , sir it is a very dead time , i am ready to starve , for the lord's sake let me have a little mony : i never gave him any but for charity , god knows my heart . i desire to know if you have not done this ? pray sir answer me to that : there is a god you must give an account to as well as i ; answer me if you have not writ these lines to me ? mr. blair . i have done this , sir john. sir j. friend . — and whether the mony i gave you , was not on meer charity ? mr. blair . ay sir , but i had expended so much mony on your business , that it had reduced me to that condition . god knows it cost me many a pound to do your business , more than i had of you . sir j. friend . you were pleased to say , you listed a great many persons for me : vvho were they , and what were their names ? mr. blair . i gave a list into the council . sir j. friend . i know nothing of that . mr. blair . i brought several officers to you sir. i told him i brought in several officers to him , and made him acquainted with them . mr. att. gen. tell him as many as you can name . mr. blair . i have named the officers already . mr. att. gen. name them again , recollect your memory . mr. blair . did not i bring capt. fisher to you , with a promise that he should be eldest captain ? sir j. friend . no sir , you never brought fisher to me . mr. att. gen. these are questions of your asking , which he answers . mr. blair . i brought fisher to you , and accordingly you dined at capt. symonds , and there was capt. ridley , richardson , and fisher , and in my own hearing you listed fisher , and promised him he should be your eldest captain , on condition he would bring in a troop . this is true ; and fisher promised accordingly . sir j. friend . vvho were the men you listed ? mr. blair . i never spake of listing , only of encouraging . sir j. friend . did not you speak of listing a great many men ? mr. blair . no , only of encouraging ; i did not speak of lifting , i hope my lord. mr. att. gen. tell him what you did say . mr. blair . i said , i had mony from you for incouraging those that were listed ; and you told me it was impossible to do it but we must have mony now and then , and we must be good husbands , you told me , sir john. did not i bring you mr. cole that lives at deal ? did not his brother-in-law mr. robinson and mr. gillibrand dine there ? did not we dine with you ? sir j. friend . i know nothing of that , i do declare . mr. blair . my lord , i brought these gentlemen to him , and we dined together . jury-man where did you dine ? mr. blair . we dined at hackney , when sir john friend lived at hackney at his own house . sir j. friend . when was it ? mr. blair . above a year ago or thereabouts , as near as i can remember . and do you not remember sir john ( if you do not dash me out of countenance ; i endeavour to speak nothing but truth , so help me god ) we were merry over a glass of wine ? cole was your mothers name ; and did not you promise him to make him next man after the commissioners in the excise ? and said i , sir john what will you give me ? o , says he , you are to have the regiment . and this was before mr. cole and mr. robinson his brother-in-law , and mr. gillibrand now at deal . l. c. j. h. was cole to be any thing in the regiment ? mr. blair . he was to be a captain my lord , and to bring in a troop . i am sick and weak my lord , and cannot speak out . mr. att. gen. will you ask him any more questions ? sir j. friend . my lord i do not remember half . mr. att. gen. do you remember any discourse , — nay do not speak to the jury . sir j. friend . i must depend upon the jury , i have not heard half what he says , i hope the jury have taken care of it . l. c. j. h. it hath been repeated what you complained of ; but will you ask him about the letter ? sir j. friend . was it my letter ? mr. blair . yes . sir j. friend . how came it to your hand ? mr. blair . by a porter , i think my wife brought it to me . sir j. friend . what was it for ? mr. blair . in order to pay the last twenty pounds ; and now i am sure it was , it comes into my mind . sir j. friend . you say you saw me write a letter to king james . l. c. j. h. who shewed you that letter ? you say he wrote to king james , who shewed it you ? mr. blair . he shewed it me himself . l. c. j. h. when was it ? mr. blair . about a year ago . mr. att. gen. and did he say he had an answer to it ? jury-man . you said you saw him write a letter . mr. blair . no , i say i saw a letter . l. c. j. h. what would you have him asked ? what questions you would have him asked propose to the court. did you see him write that letter ? mr. blair . no , he shewed me a letter , he said he wrote to king james : and i remember a passage to confirm it , at pigott's mothers house ; i dined with him and some others that day , and i told him i was so well pleased with the penning of it that i told him i believed ferguson had a hand in it ; at which he was very angry , and hath not been my friend ever since . l. c. j. h. can you remember any of the contents of the letter ? mr. blair . really , my lord , i am very apt to fail of that ; but it was about business of the king and about his regiment , and that affair i am positive of , if i were now to die. mr. att. gen. i would not have the jury go away with a mistake , the jury-man said he saw him write a letter . mr. blair . no , no. jury . that was the occasion of asking the question : when was that letter ? sir j. friend . when was that letter writ ? mr. blair . about a year and half ago . sir j. friend . i declare in the presence of god , i never wrote one . mr. att. gen. do not mistake , sir john ; he said you shewed him a letter that you said you wrote . mr. blair . i declare in the presence of god , i saw that letter . sir j. friend . do not do any thing unseemly , — but when a person charges me with writting a letter — l. c. j. h. he said you shewed him a letter that you said you had writ to king james , and that it was so well writ that he believed ferguson had a hand in it , and he thought you took offence at it . sir j. friend . in the presence of god , my lord , i did not . i have no witness . mr. att. gen. have you any other questions to ask him ? sir j. friend . no. mr. common serj. let him sit down , and not go out of the court. sir john friend speaks to the jury . mr. sheriff . speak to the court. l. c. j. h. you speak so low that the court cannot hear you , speak so as the court may hear you . sir j. friend . i shall , my lord : he is a roman catholick , and i hope to have a witness that he is so ; will that be heard ? mr. att. gen. pray sir stay till we have done with our evidence . bertram : call mr. bertram , give him his oath . do you know mr. blair ? mr. bertram . yes sir. mr. att. gen. how long have you known him ? mr. bertram . this or years . mr. att. gen. what discourse have you had with him about any regiment ? mr. bertram . capt. blair hath told me for these two years almost last past , that sir john friend was to have a regiment of horse raised about town , and that he was to be lieut. colonel , and that i was to be lieutenant under capt. blair in the regiment ; and he obliged me to bring in as many men and horses as i could into this regiment : and he told me one capt. fisher , and one vernatty , and one cole were to be captains in this regiment . l. c. j. h. vvhat were you to be ? mr. bertram . a lieutenant , sir. l. c. j. h. to whom ? mr. bertram . to capt. blair : and capt. blair told me several times , that he had letters from beyond sea relating to that purpose . l. c. j. h. this is no evidence against sir john friend ; but he is called to confirm the evidence of mr. blair . but mr. blair spoke of him before he gave his evidence . mr. att. gen. sir john friend asked what men mr. blair had engaged : now we produce mr. bertram , to declare what men he had engaged . l. c. j h. his evidence hurts you not , but only affirms what mr. blair had said . the kings councel have now done sir john friend , you may call what vvitnesses you have a mind to call . sir j. friend . may i speak my lord ? l. c. j. h. yes , you may . sir j. friend . my lord , in the first place i wait for one of my vvitnesses . mr. porter says , that i was at a meeting at the kings-head in leaden-hall-street , but how many were there i can't tell ; but there was not one word spoke of any thing of that nature ; but we were drinking a glass of vvine , and sir john fenwick at that time came in . says he , come i will desire you to go to our end of the town , and take a dish of meat with us ; and i went up thither , and there was not a word spoken . gentlemen , i am a protestant , and they are papists , and care not what they say : they think they merit heaven by destroying protestants by what they say , and they are not to be believed , that is the reason i put that question ; and they are not vvitnesses to be allowed , and for that i appeal to your lordship ; they think they merit heaven by destroying protestants . my lord , they are not good vvitnesses against protestants , by edw. . l. c. j. h. do you hear me ? are all papists not good vvitnesses to prove a man a traytor by edw. . who says so ? sir j. friend . i appeal to the th of edw. . l. c. j. h. it can't be . sir j. friend . is there not such a statute ? l. c. j. h. there is no such thing . sir j. friend . read the th of king james i. chap. . . car. ii. and other statutes . papists , or reputed papists , are not to be believed against protestants , who are by them believed to be damnable hereticks . l. c. j. h. there is no such thing ; where is your statute ? sir j. friend . my lord , the first witness that i sent for from the gatehouse is not yet come ; if your lordship will please to stay : pray sir , it is very material . l. c. j. h. will you call any witnesses in the mean time , or any thing else ? then mr. courtney was brought into the court by the keeper of the gate-house . l. c. j. h. call william courtney . is this the witness you would have , sir john friend ? sir j. friend . my lord , may i ask one question ? l. c. j. h. yes , ask what questions you will. sir j. friend . mr. courtney , i desire you to speak what you know of captain blair . mr. courtney . i do know this gentleman : i have been a prisoner in the gate-house above a month ; captain blair at the same time came in there , or a man mention'd in the proclamation , and knowing i was an old acquaintance of his , came to me , and when i was told captain blair was come to see me , i desir'd him to come down to me ; and when i saw him , i told him , i hoped he was not in the proclamation . he told me he was , but that he was innocent , and knew nothing of the plot , nor privy to any thing like it : and several others in the place can say , that captain blair said he knew nothing of a plot , but that he was as innocent as a child unborn . sir j. friend . what did he say of me ? mr. courtney . i know now nothing of that . sir j. friend . do you know any thing of his being a roman catholick ? mr. courtney . i know nothing of that , sir john ; he bore the character of one . i never saw him at church . mr. just . rokeby . how long have you known captain blair ? mr. courtney . i have known him these six or seven years , mr. just . rokeby . how know you him to be a captain ? mr. courtney . i know nothing of that ; he was call'd by the name of captain blair , all the time i knew him ; i know no other . sir j. friend . did you not hear he was a roman catholick ? mr. courtney . i heard that character of him ; i never saw him at any church ; there are several witnesses of this , sir john , as well as i. sir j. friend . sir , you are a stranger to me ; but a note was sent to me to desire that his lordship would please to send for you , for that you might do me some service . — call mr. carpenter . do you know any thing of mr. blair . mr. carpenter ? mr. carpenter . no , sir , i don't know him . sir j. friend . do you know him to be a roman catholick ? mr. carpenter . i have heard of him to have such a character . i know nothing of his religion , only as i have heard some say . l. c. j. h. mr. courtney , go to the keeper , let him carry you back to the gate-house . as courtney was going out , he whisper'd to one , and said he could say something else . then the person that heard him say so , told sir john friend , that mr. courtney had something more to say in his behalf . sir j. friend . my lord , mr. courtney says he has something else to say . l. c. j. h. i pray let him speak . sir j. friend . let that gentleman come up , mr. king , he hath something else to say . mr. courtney . two or three days after that time , a gentleman and an ensign in the army , mr. boley , were reading the flying post in prison ; and in that flying post it was said , that captain blair was making a discovery that he was lieutenant col. to sir john friend ; and that he received a great deal of subsistence mony : in the mean time , blair came in , and said , what , have you got the news ? yes , said i , the report is , that you have made a discovery of a conspiracy against the king. blair answer'd , they might put what they pleased into the news paper ; but that he knew nothing of sir john friend , and he had received none of the mony. this was a surprize upon me when he spake , for he was bemoaning his conscience ; and his wife told me , he was very much concerned that he should go against his conscience , and said , she was sure it would break her heart . l. c. j. h. did he tell you so ? mr. courtney . he told me so on friday night ; as he was lying on his back very ill , i ask'd him how he did ? he clasp'd his hands , and told me , very ill , very ill. what , said i , have you got a cold ? o! no , said he , life is sweet ; and if it were not for life , i should not do what i do . l. c. j. h. did he tell you he went against his conscience ? mr. courtney his wife and he both told me so . — i knew nothing of my being summoned here to day , mr. just . rokeby . who were the persons that were present ? you say there were two persons present with you , and you heard his wife say so . l. c. j. h. you say two persons were by , when you and he and his wife , were reading the flying post . mr. courtney . i was walking up and down the room , and blair came in , and ask'd what was the news ? said i , the news says , you make a great discovery against sir john friend , and that you have received a great deal of his regiments subsistence mony ; but he said , he knew nothing of it . l. c. j. h. who were there ? mr. courtney . the ensign , now a prisoner , who i suppose can ●ay the same . mr. just rokeby . let blair be brought in . mr. sheriff . make way for the witness , that he may come in , and not be crowded to death ; stand down mr. courtney . mr. att. gen. my lord , let mr. courtney repeat before mr. blair what he said of him . mr. courtney . i told my lord , that in my chamber one ensign bole , a prisoner in the gatehouse , hearing the flying post cry'd about , ordered it to be brought in to him ; in the mean time blare came in . i asked him if he had got the news ? he asked me what news ? i said , there is in the news-paper , that you are making a discovery ; and that you were to be lieutenant to sir john friend . you replied , they may put what they please into the flying post , but said you , i know nothing of the matter . l. c. j. h. how long ago was this ? mr. courtney . this was when the news-paper came out on friday last . l. c. j. h. but did he talk of going against his conscience ? mr. courtney . on friday night i came to see blair , and his wife was with him ; and he was clasping his hands , groaning and mourning in a miserable condition , and i thought giving up the ghost : he was in so miserable a condition , because the prison was very cold and no air. i asked if he would drink a glass of brandy . he told me no. i understand , said i , that you are going to morrow to hicks's hall to witness against sir john friend : o , says he , pray god direct us all ; life is sweet . says his wife , he would never do it but to save his life ; he goes against his conscience , and so said he . said i , you have the character of an honest gentleman , ever since i knew you ; have a care you do not wrong your conscience . o , says he , that is the only thing , the only thing , or to that purpose , and shew'd all the remorse in the world. i speak this innocently , and with a great deal of pity . this hath been communicated to one and another , and so i am sent for . mr. att. gen. do you hear what he says , mr. blair ? mr. soll. gen. you have heard what he says . l. c. j. h. what do you say ? you have heard what mr. courtney says on friday night last , in relation to your going to hicks's hall the next day . mr. blair . this gentleman crouded himself upon me ; he had a cup of brandy in his hand : god knows i desir'd no company , my lord. says he , captain blair , i have heard you have been a very honest gentleman all along , and hear you are going to hicks's hall to morrow , pray god almighty direct you , and that is all i have to say to you . i was very sick , but for any thing of remorse of conscience , as i hope for salvation , i never exprest it to him , nor any body else . l. c. j. h. did your wife say you went against your conscience ? mr. blair . no. mr. att. gen. did that gentleman thrust himself into your company , or did you desire him to come in ? mr. blair . no , he thrust himself upon me . mr. courtney . there was a sink , and the door half open . i heard him moan and lament . — mr. blair . keeper said i , now i beg of you , that no body might come to me but my wife mr. att. gen. swear the keeper . which was done did blair desire any body should come in but his wife ? keeper . no body but his wife , unless they thrust themselves upon him . mr. att. gen. do you know of his coming to him ? keeper . no. mr. blair . i always desired the maid to lock the door on the inside , that no body might come in but my wife ; and my wife told me the other day lying on my bed , do not speak , for christ jesus sake , for they come to trapan you ; my wife came in when this gentleman came to me ; for christ jesus sake , dear blair said she , do not speak one word , for you do not know but it may be a trapan . mr. courtney . if i may have leave to say it , on the word of an honest man she said no such thing . but your wife told me you went against your conscience . mr. att. gen. what was you taken up for ? mr. courtney . i was five times taken up , and at last committed for words . mr. att. gen. where do you live ? mr. courtney . in southampton buildings . mr. blair . i never heard or thought of any such thing as this . mr. courtney . truly blair , i speak in compassion to you , pitying your soul. mr. att. gen. what country man is blair ? mr. courtney . an irish man born . mr. att. gen. have you any estate in england ? how came you to go to blair ? mr. courtney . i have known him a long time ; i have been several times with him at the coffee-house : i cant say i am intimately acquainted with him ; he was never my bottle friend . mr. att. gen. how came you to go to him ? for he never ordered any body but his wife to come to him . mr. courtney . they may say what they please , he could never go to the necessary house , but through my chamber . mr. att. gen. you say nothing to the purpose . mr. courtney . this of boles reading the news , and his saying he knew nothing of the plot , was boxed about , and so i am sent for — as for coming to his chamber , i think it no ill thing to visit a man when sick. l. c. j. h. blair , did you say you never knew any thing of a plot ? mr. blair . yes , i told him i knew nothing of an assassination or invasion , by way of discourse . but i was not to express my self among such people as they were , to give any hints to such as they were , women and others , of things i had given an account of to the king and council . l. c. j. h. have you any more witnesses ? sir. j. friend . i have ; i desire mr. king may be called ? l. c. j. h. what questions do you ask him ? for what must he be called ? sir. j. friend . i desire to know of him whether mr. porter is a papist . l. c. j. h. what say you mr. king ? mr. king. i am of opinion that mr. porter is a papist , and was always taken for a papist , and never for a protestant . l. c. j. h. and sir j. friend , what do you take him for ? mr. king. i take him for a papist , and no protestant , nor ever was . sir j. friend . did you ever hear me use any reflections against the government ? mr. king. when any reflecting words were started in discourse , he desired them to forbear , and , said he , i dont like any such words , i have been acquainted with him these years , he married a relation of my wives husband . sir j. friend . you mean her former husband . mr. king. her former husband , thomas cole . l. c. j. h. have you any more to say ? mr. king. i have heard him say , if he had not taken the oaths to king james , which were binding upon his conscience , he would as freely take the oaths to the present government as any man in england . but said he , i will live peaceably under the government , tho because i dont take the oaths i am double taxed . sir j. friend . i desire captain cane may be called , mr. cane , i would know whether captain porter or blair be roman catholicks , or if you know what i am . mr. cane . they were so reported to be at epsom ; and i have been acquainted with sir j. friend several years : we have been concerned together in the traind-bands , in the tower hamlets , and have been in company with him several times , and i never heard him give any reflecting language against the present government in my life ; and when any reflecting language hath been against the government , he would say forbear talking . sir j. friend . i cant well hear him . l. c. j. h. he says he takes porter to be a papist , he was so reputed at epsom , and says he has known you a great while , and never heard you reflect against the present government since the king came in . sir j. friend . pray my lord , ask him whether he beleives me to be a protestant ? mr. cane . i always took him for a protestant . sir j. friend . i desire mr. carpenter may be called . officer . call carpenter . sir j. friend . i desire to know whether or no mr. porter be a roman catholick , and mr. blair ? mr. carpenter . i have been at epsom several times , and it hath been so reported there : but for sir j. friend , i have known him several years . i keep a brew-house as he does , and i have known him a great while , and have had occasion to be in his company , and to see him on the account of partners , coming in to trade together , and i never knew any thing of him but that he was a quiet and peaceable man , that did frequent the church , i know no otherwise . sir. j. friend . will you please that the statute book may be sent for ? l. c. j. h. yes , it shall . have you any more witnesses ? sir j. friend . yes , a great many more witnesses . l. c. j. h. then call whom you will. sir j. friend . i desire mr. hawkins may be called , my lord ; i desire he may give an account what i am , whether i am a roman catholick or a protestant . mr. hawkins . i have known sir j. friend these years , and have had to do with him a great while before the present government , and since ; and have heard him speak no reproachful language , slightingly or reflectingly against the government . as to his religion i did always believe him to be a protestant of the church of england , and always went to church . l. c. j. h. what , since the revolution ? mr. hawkins . i believe he has . l. c. j. h. have you known him go to church ? mr. hawkins . i have been out of town , and have not seen him so frequently as i use to do . sir. j. friend . i desire major mold may be called for . l. c. j. h. if you have done with him . maj. mold . my lord , i have known sir j. friend many years , years : i have always lookt on him to be a sincere strict protestant : i have been in his company several times since the revolution , and never heard him talk disrespectfully of the present government , and have been in his company several times . sir j. friend . i desire dr. hollingworth may be called . he did not appear sir. j. friend . i desire mr. lupton may be called . mr. lupton i desire you to give an account of me . mr. lupton . i have known sir j. friend about ten years ; he was pleased to imploy me as a chaplain in his house , a very considerable time before , and after the revolution : we always used prayers in the family , and prayed for the present king and the late queen mary , at which sir j. friend was many times present . mr. att. gen. how long was it since ? mr. lupton . about four or five years , as i remember . when sir john's family was lessened , he was pleased to say , my family is now lessened , and i am going into the country , and shall have no occasion for you at present , but if ever i make use of a chaplain again , i will desire you to come to me again . l. c. j. h. how long is it since you left him ? mr. lupton . about five year : and as to his being a papist i have often had discourse with sir john about it , and he was pleased to speak of it with detestation of their principles , and that he did abhor them . sir j. friend . have you heard me speak any thing of an invasion , how i would venture my life in such a cause ? mr. sheriff . speak out that the court may hear you . mr. lupton . i have heard him often say , that tho' he could not comply with the present government , he would live peaceably under it , and that he would never be in a plot ; and i never found any thing by him , but that he was a very worthy honest gentleman . sir j. friend . pray let mr. hodely be called up . sir , pray tell the court , and the jury , what you know concerning me , and my life and conversation . mr. hodely . i believe , my lord , sir john friend is a very settled protestant of the church of england i have frequently discoursed with him upon it : i have a couple of children that are his nephews , on whose account i am forced several times to wait upon him , and trouble him . he hath often said he would never be in a plot ; and which makes me the better remember it , his words were , if you catch me in the corn , put me in the pound . sir john friend did frequently express himself with a great deal of detestation against king-killing , or assassinating a crowned head. mr. attor . gen. pray , mr. hodely , what were the occasions of such discourses between sir john friend and you , concerning the government , and with reference to any plot against it ? mr. hodely . indeed i can't tell upon what occasion ; such discourses there will be on some occasions : i don't remember any occasion of it . l. c. j. h. how long ago was this ? mr. hodely . i believe five or six times within these two years . l. c. j. h. had you the same discourse ? mr. hodely . i can't tell as to the same discourse ; but these were his words , he would be in no plot. l. c. j. h. have you any thing more , sir john ? sir j. friend . i cou'd bring a great many more . l. c. j. h. call whom you will. sir j. friend . i would not give you the trouble . l. c. j. h. call who you will. sir j. friend . then call mr. willis , and mr. hemins : i hope your lordship does not forget what i proposed about the statutes being brought . l. c. j. h. no , we don't forget it . sir j. friend . i desire , mr. willis , you will give an account to his lordship , what you think of my being a protestant ; and how i have behaved my self in every respect . mr. willis . i have always taken for granted , that all who come to church are protestants ; and i did always take sir john friend to be a protestant : the acquaintance i have had with him was since i lived in the parish of hackney , and have had some conversation with him sometimes , and friendly visits ; but i don't remember any discourse , at any time , relating to the government , either one way or other . i confess i was never very often with him , but his discourse was obliging and prudent always when i was there . l. c. j. h. when did you see him at church ? mr. willis . i can't call to mind justly when it was ; he may be at church sometimes , and i not see him ; for our seats are very distant , and the pillars between , that we can't see one another . l. c. j. h. have you seen him there within a year or two ? mr. willis . he hath been above a year from hackney . mr. montague . can you say you have seen him there this four years ? mr. willis . i can't say what i don't know ; i can't call to mind : i wou'd not say any thing i don't know , tho' i am not upon my oath . sir j. friend . i desire mr. hemins may be called : i cou'd call a great many , but all to the same effect . l. c. j. h. whom you think fit ; call whom you will. sir j. friend . but one thing i desire before — — if these two gentlemen , blair and porter , and none but these two ; if they are papists , they are not good witnesses against a protestant , to prove him a traytor , by edw. . for that statute says , he that is indicted must be proved attainted , which can't be by the evidence of papists ; and that because they do refuse to take the oaths of allegiance required to be taken : and therefore i humbly beseech your lordship that you will be pleased to tender them the oaths ; for there is a statute , jac. . c. . i desire they may be tendred their oaths . l. c. j. h. that is not the present business at this time . we must go on with the present business . sir j. friend . they are not substantial witnesses ; for this is the law , as i am informed . i only speak as i did at first , before ever they were sworn : i desired to know when 't was convenient for me to insist upon this , before ever they were sworn . i asked whether they were papists ; that they would not tell me , that was not allowed of ; it was over-ruled by the court. but there is such a statute , and my witnesses have said that they are papists ; there lies a great deal upon it , my lord ; and i humbly beseech your lordship , i hope you will not take it amiss that i do insist upon it . l. c. j. h. no , by no means , i will take nothing amiss . sir j. friend . edw. . car. . jac. . c. . i desire may be read ; for there it is , that if any roman catholick swear against any protestant , who are by them accounted hereticks , they are not to be believed ; for the priest can absolve them from all oaths : and they use equivocations , and mental reservations , and may have a dispensation for such forswearing , and afterward for all villanies ; and therefore they are not to be credited , and their evidence is really none , till they shall renounce those matters and principles . therefore i humbly beseech your lordship that these statutes may be read . l. c. j. h. read the statute , jac. . c. . sir j. friend . my lord , your lordship was pleased to promise me , that if any thing should arise that was matter of law , my counsel should be heard ; pray let me know if there be any matter of law in it ; and if there be , i humbly beg my counsel may be heard . l. c. j. h. let us know first if there be matter of law. sir j. friend . my lord , my life is in danger , i am as clear as a child unborn . l. c. j. h. if the court did think there was any colour in this objection you make , we would let you have counsel ; nay we would do it now , if we could do it by law. sir j. friend . how do you say , may it please your lordship ? l. c. j. h. if there were any colour in what you say , in relation to a papist being no evidence , we would hear your counsel . i would be glad to hear that counsel that would own your objection ; the statute shall be produced , and we shall see if there be any such thing , or any thing like it . sir j. friend . i don't understand the law , my lord , not i. i would be glad to hear counsel , for my own satisfaction . l. c. j. h. look you , sir john friend , you shall have what is fit to be done . you desire to have the statute read , and it shall be all read . sir j. friend . my lord , i desire that edw. . and car. . may be read . l. c. j. h. what chapter ? sir j. friend . i have it down here . l. c. j. h. then read the th . of edw. . gentlemen of the jury , sir john friend desires the th . of edw. . the statute on which he is indicted , may be read . sir j. friend . my lord , i beseech you that i may speak one word before you go on to read this statute . my lord , i am advised by counsel , a consultation to levy war is no treason , without rebellion , insurrection , and invasion ; and inviting men over is no treason , unless a foreign prince be invited to come with his own subjects . i am no lawyer ; i leave that to your lordship likewise . clerk reads the statute . sir j. friend . i don't think that is the statute . l. c. j. holt. yes , that is the statute you mention . sir j. friend . i do not know whether that be the chapter ; i have not the chapter . l. c. j. holt. read the statute of jac. . c. . sir j. friend . there may be a mistake in the chapter ; i have not the chapter . l. c. j. h. this is the statute relating to high treason , and has in it those very words that are in your paper which you have read to the court. sir j. friend . read the d. of k. james . c. . which relates to the tendring the oaths to the papists ; the oaths appointed to be taken by the statute ; they ought to have the oaths tendred to them . l. c. j. h. that is another time . sir j. friend . pray , my lord — — cl. of the cr. o here it is . sir j. friend . no roman catholick is capable of having an oath administred to him to be a witness . l. c. j. h. read it out . sir j. friend . i only speak of roman catholicks : i am told that roman catholicks regard not any oath , because they have priests that can absolve them ; and therefore i only speak this , because i know not how their oath can sway with any one . therefore your lordship being my counsel , i would desire , my lord , that if there be any thing that i have omitted , that you would please to help me . your lordship was pleased to say , you were my counsel , and that you would assist me , ( for i am as innocent as the child unborn ) however these men have sworn against me : this is a hard thing , and to lay this upon a gentleman , and that by these two papists , 't is a very hard thing . l. c. j. h. have you any witness to prove that these men have no reason to charge you thus ? have they any displeasure or malice against you ? sir j. friend . my lord , i have been so kept up , i have not had time for any body to come to me . i had no counsel till saturday . mr. baker . that is a mistake . sir j. friend . i had it not till friday in the afternoon . i have been kept so close , that i had no body to come to me . indeed i had an order , but there was a mistake in that order , so that no friend could come to me , that i might inquire into things . mr. soll. gen. you had notice of your tryal , on tuesday last . mr. baker . i did attend sir john friend , and gave him notice of his tryal on tuesday last , and desired to know if he would name his counsel ; and he was pleased to name mr. northy , and sir bartholomew showers ; who did refuse to come after orders were procured for them , and by that reason , a great deal of time was lost : then i went to sir john friend again last wednesday , not hearing of him , and i asked him , why he had not named his counsel ? he told me , counsellor northy would not come till he had spoken with sir bartholomew shower . the next day came burleigh to me , and brought me the name of the person he would have . i immediately procured an order , and went away with it ; i take it to be mr. welding , and he desired that burleigh , and underhall might come to him ; he had an order the same minute he spoke for it . l. c. j. h. when was it ? mr. baker . on thursday . where is burleigh ? sir j. friend . i desired they would put into it , lieutennant colonel tatton and cash ; but they put in neither of these men ; but took up my kinsmam cash , and put him into a messengers hand . l. c. j. h. sir john friend , if you had any witness , and had not been as fully prepared for your defence as you could be , you should have moved for your tryal to have been put off till another day . but now i say , have you any reason to offer that these witnesses have any malice against you ? sir j. friend . my lord , i am no lawyer , i have not the liberty of counsel ; and it is a hard thing for a man to suffer at this rate ; for these are things out of my reach , i am disappointed in every thing . l. c. j. h. have you any more to say ? sir j. friend . no , my lord , i have no more to say . then mr. sollicitor general spoke to the court and the jury , to the effect following : i am of counsel in this cause for the king , against the prisoner at the bar ; and it is my turn to sum up the evidence . the prisoner cant say but he hath had a very fair tryal , and has no reason to complain , for all the rest of it shall be alike . he and you may very well remember , that persons of the same quality in former times , have not had that fair dealing ; and though all things are very well now , yet time was when it was not so : when innocency was not a safety for a man ; when not his life , much less his laws and liberties were secure to him : time was , when the protestant religion , and the church of england ( of which the prisoner at the bar , sir john friend , says , he is and boasts himself to be , and with very good reason the best ) time was , i say , when that religion was in danger , and when that popery ( for which he reflects on the witnesses now ) was like to over-run us . and had not his majesty , with the hazard of his life , and great expence rescued us , no body doubts , but that all in a very few years , would have been made good upon us now . and it is a very melancholy thing to consider , that there should be a sort of people among us now , so in love with popery and slavery , as to have a mind to bring it about again : and it is a very ungrateful thing , that when his majesty with danger of his life then , and several times since , hath endeavoured to defend us , there should be a party of men among us , who should endeavour to invade his country , and fall on his subjects in his absence , in order to subvert his government . i will not accuse particularly the prisoner at the bar , to have had a hand in the assassination : but very plain it is he knew of it . this , among others , is a very ungrateful thing ; when another person is engaged for my defence , i should contrive and design against his life , and be for invading of him . if the prisoner at the bar be not guilty of what he hath been accused , nothing of this relates to him : but if what hath been given in evidence , be true of the prisoner at the bar , he is one of those persons that hath done all that he can to subvert the government and to effect the invasion of the country . the first evidence given in against him was by mr. porter ; and he gives in evidence that at the king's head in leaden-hall-street , there was a meeting of several persons , among which the prisoner at the bar was one , and that , in order to consider of the best means for the bringing back of the late k. james . they concluded at last the best means would be to send some body over to france to invite k. james hither , and to intreat him to prevail with the french king to send over with him horse , a ● dragoons , and foot , and that he should make what hast he could to land with them here ; and to incourage so to do , they promised their assistance , and that they did not doubt to meet him with horse . the person pitched on for this errand , was one charnock , lately executed for high treason . but upon this proposition charnock was very diffident , whether this was the effect of a sober consideration or not , and therefore would not undertake it till he had satisfaction that they still continued of the same mind : and therefore another meeting was proposed and agreed upon of the same persons , and that was to be at mrs. montjoy's tavern : there they all met again , and the question being put , whether they were of the same opinion or not ; they did declare themselves all to be of the same opinion , that mr. charnock should go to france on the message agreed on at the kings head , and make as sudden a return back as he could to give them an answer . captain porter tells you , that charnock brought word that the french king could not then spare them that force that they desired . hereupon it was put off , and their design was deferred till last winter , and then it was likely to take place very lately . the next is cap. blair , and he tells you years ago sr. john friend shewed him a commission that he had received from the late k. james to raise a regiment of horse , of which he himself was to be colonel . he tells you , it was signed by k. james at the top , and countersigned by melford at the bottom ; and that he had a great many consultations with him , and considerations about raising this regiment ; and that he was to be lieutenant colonel , and was to provide as many officers as he could , and that he did provide several officers , particularly captain fisher , captain vernatti , one cole , one bertram ; and he was to be a lieutenant in one of the troops . a great deal of the evidence he gives against sr. john friend was out of his own mouth , and that is as strong an evidence certainly as can be given . he doth for that purpose tell you that one evans was to be one of the captains of his troop ; that colonel sclater a man grown somewhat in favour with sr. john friend rival'd this blair , that sr. john friend told him he would have two lieutenant colonels , and this person should be one , and that he took very ill , and did resent it to sr. john friend , and therefore he told him he would make him a captain of a troop of horse that should consist of non-swearing parsons . he tells you likewise there were listed several men ; but the particular persons he could not remember : but they were in the papers he had given in to the council . sir john friend told him mr. richardson was to be another of his captains of horse , and one mr. cole , another captain ; and to bring in several men. he tells you he receiv'd from sir john friend some summs of money , and that sir john friend having laid down l. about the escape of parker out of the tower ( for which was laid down l. ) sir john friend was to be reimburs'd this l. from st. germans ; and that one mr. piggott had re●eiv'd it for sir john friend , but refus'd to pay it to him ; and that sir john friend was contented he should have l. out of that l. provided he could get it of mr. piggott : but capt. blair not having so much interest himself as to get the money of mr. piggott , applies himself to one mr. harrison , alias johnson , by which means he got that l. he tells you afterward , he was pressing on sir john friend to have another l. sir john was contented he should have it , if he could get it of mr. piggott . capt. blair produceth a letter that sir john friend writ to him , and excuseth himself , that mr. blair had not heard from him , but that he would meet him at such a time at such a coffee-house ; in the letter the business of their meeting was not express'd : that he met accordingly , and there was mr. harrison and mr. piggott , and l. of the second l. was paid ; this second l. was paid on account of charges mr. blair had been at , in drinking with the listed men to incourage them . there was another letter that sir john said he writ to king james ; he shewed him this letter at mr. piggott's mother's house . he told sir john it was so very well penn'd , he suspected it was not sir john friend's penning , but mr. ferguson's : he tells you , that thereupon sir john was very angry , that he suspected him not to have penn'd that letter . this shew'd the intelligence ; and that this letter was upon the inviting king james . he tells you likewise , that sir john fenwick told him that he had four troops ready for that service ; and tells you also , he was to be one to serve in this regiment under sir john friend : that mr. ferguson was to bring in a considerable number of men to him ; and all this was to be put in practice when the thoulon fleet came about to join the brest fleet : and likewise , when he was with him in his coach , he said they must act very warily , and be good husbands ; and that it had cost him so much money , that if the fleet did not come quickly , he should want money to carry on his trade . these are positive witnesses against sir john friend , as of his own knowledge , and most of it from his own mouth . sir john friend , he tells you , was a good protestant , and the two witnesses roman catholicks ; but this is no objection against their evidence . it was never known before , but that a roman catholick may be a very honest man , and a good witness ; though sir john knows very well , that they are not very good otherwise ; yet they may be allowed to be good witnesses : for those that were witnesses against them that lately died , were ingaged in the same design with them , which was to assassinate the king ; and certainly , if any thing could have taken off their evidence , it should have been that : but that was so far from making them no witnesses , that it strengthned their evidence . for though a roman catholick may be a very honest man otherwise , it is more likely for him to ingage in such a design than any other man ; and sir john friend might not find enough of other religions , than that of the roman catholick , for that design ; and so it is plain he ingaged with those who were most likely to ingage in such a design . as to what mr. courtney tells you of capt. blair's discourse with him in prison , he tells you that discourse did not go so far as he pretends ; but mr. courtney grafts upon it . capt. blair tells you he intruded into his room , when he had given order , that no one but his wife should be permitted to come in . you have heard the evidence against the prisoner , and if you believe what our witnesses have said , capt. porter and capt. blair , then certainly sir john friend is guilty of all the crimes charged in the indictment : and i hope you will be so just to your prince , to your country , and to your friends , as to find him guilty accordingly . mr. cooper , one of the king's council , spoke to the court and the jury to this effect . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , i do not think there is any thing necessary to be said to the court ; and i think , hardly to the jury : but ( if possibly we may ) to convince the prisoner at the bar , that he has not , nor shall have , any hard measure ; but that he is guilty of the crimes whereof he stands accused in the indictment : and to shew you that there is no weight in his defence , the first part of his defence is from some discourse he would object against capt. blair , in the prison of the gate-house . one part of that discourse is upon his first coming into the prison , and then his objection amounts to only this ; that capt. blair , when pumpt by some of the prisoners , would not confess to them that he was ingaged in that horrid design : but how empty that objection is , i would leave to them who would judge whether a man ( newly taken into prison , and in company with persons who would not have liked him , nay , may be , have destroyed him in prison for that very confession of his ) were likely to own it . another discourse was on friday last , the day before he was to go to hick's - hall , and then this person intruded himself into his chamber , when he had ordered that no body should be permitted to be let in ; and he comes with a cup of brandy in his hand , and good advice , that he should have a care what he did ; and then he said capt. blair did express some reluctancy about the thing he was going upon , the next day : if that were true ( but he denies it ) when going to depose a truth against an old friend and companion , it was no more than what he did when he first came into court , when he was going to depose a truth , that he told sir john he was very loath to depose that against him , which he was forced now to do . another part of his evidence is , that he brings witnesses to prove the evidence against him was by roman catholicks , and he a very good protestant of the church of england : if that be true , all that can be gather'd from it is , that a papist engaging in so black a design , may be a very good papist ; but i am sure you will all agree with me , that he was a very bad protestant . but whether or no papists may be absolved by their priests their false swearing , i can't tell that , for i am not acquainted with their religion ; it may be they may ; but i am sure , the disservice they have done to the popish cause , after they had served it so long , will be one of the last things they will ever absolve them of . another thing he insists on is this : he hath brought two or three clergymen to evidence for him that he was very cautious in talking reflectingly against the government , and that he was not , nor could not be in any plot ; and 't is to be observed , that at all times , that that swims uppermost , and is most frequent in all discourses , that a man is most engaged in : they say nothing introduced those discourses , but that at all times he frankly declared he was not in any plot , nor would not be one way or other ; as the way that weak men and children discover their being ingaged in a thing , is by their constantly discoursing upon it , and declaring that they would not be concerned in it . another particular he hath just offer'd at , is a point of law ; but that dropped , and he waved it : he would have had it , that no roman catholick could be allowed as an evidence against a protestant . what weight there is in that , gentlemen , i doubt not but the court hath given you good satisfaction in . i would do the prisoner right ; but i would have you consider , that the prisoner hath not only been charged with a bare conspiracy ; but that he was ingaged in consulting an invasion , in order to drive out his present majesty , and depose him from the crown , which is high-treason by our law , which way soever it be done ; whether by a stab , or shot , or levying war. in the last place , i would take account of the consultations held , wherein he admits he was present at the two meetings , where both say he was present ; he only differs in one point from the witnesses : he says , nothing was talked of at these meetings , but general and indifferent things ; but the witnesses have sworn what the discourse was . there is one thing more , that is , mr. bertram's evidence ; not that we produce it against the prisoner , but to support what was sworn by capt. blair . and this is in order to satisfie the court , that there is nothing said against the prisoner , neither maliciously nor out of any envy ; for capt. blair did acquaint mr. bertram with the thing at least two years ago , and confirmed it with this circumstance , that he was to be capt. blair's lieutenant , and capt. blair swears the same thing . there is concurrence of evidence against the prisoner , and great levity in his defence : therefore we leave it with you . then my lord chief justice holt summed up the evidence , to the effect following . gentlemen of the jury , sir john friend , the prisoner at the bar , is accused for high-treason ; and the treason that is mentioned in the indictment , is , conspiring , compassing , and imagining the death of the king. to prove this conspiring and compassing the king's death , there are two particular overt-acts mainly insisted upon ; the one , the agreeing to send mr. charnock into france to king james , to perswade the french king to send over forces to assist them , who were to furnish other forces to raise war within this kingdom , in order to depose the king. the other overt-act , is having a commission for procuring and levying men , to be ready , in order to join with the french upon their invasion , and this for the restitution of king james , and total extirpation of king william . these two , as i told you , are the two overt-acts that are mainly insisted upon ; and to prove him guilty of these , there are two witnesses ; one is capt. porter , who spoke to the first ; the other is capt. blair , who spoke to the second . capt. porter tells you , about the latter end of may , or beginning of june last , he and sir john friend , and others he mentioned , were at the kings-head tavern in leaden-hall-street , and there they entred into discourse about the return of king james , and did consider among themselves which was the most effectual way and means to have him restored : thereupon , it was agreed among them , to send a messenger to france to king james , to desire him to sollicit the french king to furnish him with men to be sent into england , foot , horse , and dragoons : and that they did agree when these forces were sent over , that they would be ready to meet and join them with horse . the messenger they agreed to send , was with them at that very time , and that was mr. charnock , lately tried and executed . this being determined , charnock makes ready to go on this expedition ; but before he went , it seems , he had a desire to meet with the company again , for a further discourse of this matter , and see whether or no they did persevere in the resolution they formerly took . thereupon there was another meeting about a week or fourteen days after , i can't tell which , and that was at mrs. montjoy's , and there were sir john friend , and captain porter , and others , of the same company that were before at the king's-head , and there they entred into the debate of this matter ; the question was , whether or no charnock should be sent into france , as was formerly determined ; and then it was determined that he should go ; and it seems , capt. porter said he went in two or three days afterward . and capt. porter tells you further , that three weeks or five weeks ( sometime afterward ) mr. charnock comes back , and capt. porter was taken up upon the riot , and did not see him upon his first return , but afterwards he met with him and spoke to him , and asked him , what he had done , and what were the effects of his negotiation ? he told him , he had done as he was directed ; that he had been with king james , and that king james had spoken to the french king ; but the answer return'd was this , that the french king for that year had occasion for his forces to be otherwise employed , and could not spare them that year . capt. porter ask'd him , whether he had been with the rest ? he told him , he had acquainted them with the same thing . the next evidence is capt. blair , to the other part of the indictment , which is for raising of men ( not levying of them ) he having a commission from king james , for ingaging of men to be of his regiment , of which he was to be colonel himself , and to provide officers . capt. blair tells you , two or three years ago he was with sir john friend , and sir john did produce a commission that he had from king james , to be a colonel of a regiment of horse that he was to raise . he was to raise them himself , and to appoint what officers he thought fit : that he read the commission , and it was signed at the top james rex , and counter-signed melford . sir john friend promised capt. blair , he should be lieutenant colonel of that regiment ; and told him , that he should get as many men as he could ; that mr. vernatti was to be one of his captains ; that captain blair brought mr. fisher to sir john friend , to be his first captain : and that there was one mr. sclater , a man in favour with sir john friend , and he was to be another lieutenant colonel , as he told capt. blair , saying , it is no matter if i have two lieutenant-colonels in my regiment : at which , capt. blair took great offence , and did express as much to sir john friend . thereupon , sir john friend told him it should not be . i will , said sir john , make another provision for him ; he shall be a captain of a troop of non-swearing parsons , and that should satisfie him . besides this , in order to raising of men ( no men were levied ) and for ingaging men to contract to come in , and be of his regiment , he tells you there was expended a great deal of money to caress them , and keep them together , and to carry on this design . whereupon capt. blair came to sir john , and made complaint that he wanted money to carry on the design . upon this , sir john friend tells him , there is l. due to me , which i ought to have upon this account , viz. because i laid down l. in order to the facilitating the escape of col. parker out of the tower , and there is one mr. piggott had directions to pay me that l. but i can't get it of him ; you shall have l. of that l. but how is this to be had ? why , there is one mr. harrison alias johnson hath an interest in this mr. piggott , to whom he made his application , and thereupon l. was paid him about the latter end of june , or the beginning of july last . after this , capt. blair said , he had occasion for some more money some time after , about michaelmas , and he was very importunate with sir john to obtain it from him : i will give you the manner how . it was out of the same summ that he had the other l. he writes to sir john friend a letter , and sir john returns this answer , and that by a letter under sir john's own hand , and he knew it to be his own hand : in the contents of the letter are that which is remarkable ; the letter bears date some tuesday morning , directed to capt. blair ; the letter was delivered at his own house , and this was to meet him on thursday next , at jonathan's coffee-house at the hour of twelve . accordingly capt. blair comes to jonathan's coffee-house , where he doth meet sir john , and mr. harrison was there , and there he does receive some money : so that now this letter doth not depend for its proof , barely upon his hand , but upon the contents , and the subsequent action thereupon ; and this is a great evidence , because the letter directs him to meet at jonathan's coffee-house , and sir john friend does meet with capt. blair at that place and time ; and that there was a discourse of the design of the french invasion . he farther tells you , there was a discourse between him and capt. blair , how that sir john did not at all scruple his being concerned , but did according to the tenour of the discourse past , tell him , that he would not stir till such time as the thoulon fleet was come about ; thinking that if he did , there would be danger of his being apprehended : and therefore that he would sculk about , and bid capt. blair should do the same ; a very great argument that he continued still of the same mind ; for this discourse related still to the former business , viz. that he was to raise a regiment of horse , in order to the restauration of king james ; and it also , hath relation to the french invasion , which was expected on the same account for about two years . there was a great intimacy between this capt. blair and sir john friend , and a great trust sir john reposed in him . and you are told of a letter to king james : sir john tells him , that he wrote that letter himself . capt. blair says he read that letter ; and that it was so well penn'd , he believed mr. ferguson did pen it : upon which , sir john was angry . then you have , gentlemen , mr. bertram called to be a witness , to prove , that capt. blair told him he was to be lieutenant-colonel ; and that before the discovery of this plot , and the assassination , that sir john did intimate something of his knowledge of it , that he heard of such a thing , but did dislike it ; for he thought it would be the ruine of king james's business . so that this , gentlemen , is the summ and substance of the evidence against the prisoner : but now you are to consider what sir john can say on behalf of himself . first , he makes an objection against the credit of the witnesses ; that they are not to be believed upon this account , because they are known to be roman catholicks . their consciences indeed , as to oaths , are somewhat large , especially when they swear against protestants : and therefore , says he , they are not to be allowed against protestants as witnesses ; at least , their credit is not sufficient to induce a jury to believe them . at first he alledgeth , that there is a statute that disables them from being witnesses . there is no such thing , nor is that at all a diminution of the credit of their testimony : for , i must tell you , they are legal witnesses : though there are several laws to punish them as roman catholicks ; yet no law that renders them infamous , or incredible witnesses , that i know of ; for you must know , gentlemen , that papists are christians , and they do swear by the same evangelists , as we do . and for that objection , that they look upon us as hereticks , and may be absolved for swearing falsly : it hath been well observed by the king's council , they would never obtain any dispensation whatsoever , when by their swearing , they do a papist mischief , so they are good witnesses as to their credit and competency . but then he insists upon it , that blair is not to be look'd upon as a witness ; and he tells you why , first , that he had denied he knew any thing of the plot : the occasion of that was this ; when he was in the gate-house , there was news in the flying post or post boy , where it was alledged that blair had confessed all ; and that thereupon blair did say he was innocent . you are to consider the weight of that objection : suppose he had said so at that juncture , and did own that he knew nothing at that time ; by a man's disowning of a thing , because he would not confess , or trust those men with his confession , that therefore he is not to be believed when he comes and swears it positively , that is no argument . for now blair is called to confront him , he tells you he did not say he knew nothing of a plot , but denied being privy to , or being concerned in the business of the assassination , so that he did not deny wholly to be in the plot , but in the assassination . then for the other matter : on friday night last it seems this courtney coming to blair's chamber , where blair was , he takes notice to him of his discovery ; says he , you are to be a witness to morrow against sir john friend at hicks's hall , i pray god direct you . he says , blair seemed to be much troubled , that he took notice it was against his conscience ; and that he and his wife said it was against his conscience . blair denies that positively , and says he believed he came in to catch him . he farther tells you , that his design was to keep himself free from all company ; and that he gave order that none but his wife might come to him ; that this his coming in surprized him ; that this man rushed in upon him without his consent ; that he did never say it was against his conscience . besides that , you must consider the nature of the thing , that when a man is to come the next day to give an evidence to the grand jury , it is not to be thought he should be so unwise a man as to tell another , it was to swear against his conscience . therefore gentlemen you are to consider the evidence that blair hath given , and the validity of it . then sir john friend doth insist upon another matter . says he , i am a protestant : is it likely that i that am a protestant should conspire , confederate , and encourage such an invasion against the king and kingdom ? and to prove that he is a protestant , he hath called two or three witnesses that have known him some twenty years , others many years ; that have frequently been in his company , and that tell you they did never know any time when he reflected against the government : nay , i think one of them says , he was in his company when he did reprove such reflections . and then one that was his chaplain in his house is called , and he tells you that he read the common-prayers in his house since the revolution ; that sir john friend was present while they prayed for the present king and the late queen mary , and that he says he has been gone from him about five years , and hath had very little converse with him since . another says , he hath been in his company divers times , and had several discourses with him , and that he should say , that tho he could not conform to take the oaths to the present government , yet he would live peaceably and quietly under it ; and that one expression he had was this , if they catch me in the corn , let them put me in the pound . this is the sum and substance of his defence ; you are to consider the weight of that , and whether it is sufficient to ballance the evidence that hath been given for the king against the prisoner . it is plain , tho he was a protestant , he was no good friend to the government , nor could not take the oaths to it . i have known a great many men that go to church , and are present at the prayers , but whether they joyn with them or no , i know not . but now you are to consider whether or no sir john friend being a protestant , he would not be in a plot because he said so , is such an argument as shall be sufficient to make you disbelieve the credit of this evidence . another thing he insists on is a matter of law. in the statute of edw. . which hath been read , and doth contain several species of treason , giving an account what shall be treason ; one is , compassing and imagining the death and destruction of the king ; the other is , the levying of war. now , says he , there was no war actually levied . to this objection i must tell you , if there be only a war to be levied , a conspiracy to levy war barely in it self is not treason : but if the design and the conspiracy be either to kill the king , or depose the king , and the way and method proposed to effect it is to levy war , the consulting thereof to levy a war is treason , and a treason which is mentioned in edw. . for the words of the statute are , if any person shall conspire , imagine , or compass the destruction or death of the king , such conspiracy or imagination is treason , if made out by any overt-act . now because a man designs to do it by the means of a war , agreeing and consulting to levy a war in order to that design , is high treason . there is a levying of war without treason , not aiming at the death of the king ; for if a number of men appear in a warlike manner , and this is not against the person of the king , nor with a design of his death and destruction , but for a general reformation of the state , and to have better laws , and to prevent those abuses that they are offended at , this war now to be levied not being to compass or design the death of the king , this is not high treason . but if the purpose and design be to depose , or destroy the king , and this to be by the means of a war , this is high treason ; and it is an overt-act : so that , that objection he makes in point of law , is nothing in this case . you have heard the evidence , what it is , and you are to consider the weight of it , and the circumstances with which it is attended , to prove the credibility and the probability on one side and the other : and if you do not believe that sir john friend was so concerned as you have heard the witness depose , then you are to acquit sir john friend . but on the other side , if you do believe the evidence against sir john friend , you are to find him guilty by what the evidence hath sworn against him . jury-man . we desire to have the letter with us . l. c. j. h. you may look on it here . then an officer was sworn to keep the jury safe ; and they withdrew to consider of their verdict . after a very short time the jury returned , and the clerk of the crown spake to them thus . cl. of the crown , gentlemen , answer to your names . thomas clerk. mr. clerk. here. and so of the rest . cl. cr. gentlemen , are you all agreed in your verdict ? omnes . yes . cl. cr. who shall say for you ? omnes . the foreman . cl. cr. sir john friend , hold up thy hand . you of the jury , look upon the prisoner ; how say you ? is he guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. cr. what goods and chattels , lands or tenements , &c. foreman . none , to our knowledge . cl. cr. hearken to your verdict as the court hath recorded it . you say that sir john friend is guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , and that he had no goods or chattels , lands or tenements at the time of the high treason committed , or at any time since , to your knowledge ; and so you say all ? omnes . yes . then the court adjourned till seven a clock the next morning , the th . instant . the next day , at seven a clock , the court being met , a messenger came from sir john friend to the court , desiring that he might be heard a word or two in arrest of judgment . cl. cr. set sir john friend to the bar. silence . sir j. friend . i beseech your lordship , that you will give me leave to move in arrest of judgment , because i am not convicted of treason . mr. porter says , that i , with others , sent in may last to king james , to obtain men from the french king : and mr. blair says , that i had a commission from king james to be a colonel of horse ; but this is no levying of war , and therefore i am convicted but by one witness . l. c. j. h. sir john you were not indicted for levying war , but for compassing the death of the king : and as for your commission to raise men , you gave money to blair your lieutenant-colonel to give to the men that were to be of your regiment . sir j. friend . i thank god i am as innocent as a child unborn of assassinating the king. l. c. j. h. the overt-acts for dethroning the king are overt-acts for compassing and imagining his death . sir j. friend . i desire your lordship to hear my counsel . l. c. j. h. we can't enter into examination of that matter now . you had yesterday a long trial. sir j. friend . i desire i may have counsel for the satisfaction of the world. l. c. j. h. no counsel , that understand what a counsel should do , can say any thing for you in this case : tho' it be no treason barely to conspire to levy war , yet it is treason to conspire to levy war to dethrone the king. sir j. friend . i desire that i may have the liberty of friends to come to me to take care of my soul that little time that i have to live . l. c. j. h. yes , by all means . then the court proceeded to the trial of sir william perkins : and after the jury had brought in their verdict against him , they adjourned till five-a-clock that evening . about six of the clock the lord mayor , mr. common serjeant , and a sufficient number of the justices , returned into court , and proclamation being made for attendance , the prisoner was brought to the bar. cl. cr. sir john friend , hold up thy hand . thou standest convicted of high treason for conspiring the death of our sovereign lord king william iii. what hast thou to say for thy self why judgment should not pass against thee to dye according to the law ? sir j. friend . i have said all already . cl. cr. all manner of persons are commanded to keep silence while judgment is giving , upon pain of imprisonment . note , the sentence was pronounced against sir william parkins at the same time . mr. common serj. you the prisoners at the bar , sir john friend and sir william parkins , have been indicted for high treason in conspiring the death of the king ; for trial thereof you have put your selves on your country ; which country have found you guilty . the crimes you are convicted of , are the greatest a man can commit . murder and robbery are injuries but to private persons ; but to contrive the destruction of the king , is letting in ruin upon thousands of people . for robbery and murder there may be something pleaded for justification , as for private revenge , &c. but to set , conspire , and debate the destruction of a prince , the best of men , the father of his country , no man had ever any colour of excuse for that . i would not add to your unhappiness ; i am sorry for the severe judgment that you have brought upon your selves . all that remains for me to do , is , to pronounce on you the sentence . and the court doth award , that you , and each of you , be carried to the place from whence you came , and from thence be drawn on a hurdle to the place of execution , and be there severally hanged , but cut down while you are alive ; that your privy members be cut off ; that your bowels be taken out , and burnt before your faces ; that your heads be sever'd from your bodies , and your bodies be divided into four quarters , and your quarters to be at the king's dispose : and the lord have mercy on your souls . then the court adjourned to the d. day of april . finis . the tryal and process of high-treason and doom of forfaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor by his majesties special command ... mackenzie, george, sir, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing m estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and process of high-treason and doom of forfaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor by his majesties special command ... mackenzie, george, sir, - . baillie, robert, d. . england and wales. privy council. [ ], - p. printed by the heir of andrew anderson ; by tho. newcomb, edinburg : reprinted at london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. attributed to george mackenzie. cf. nuc pre- . created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (treason) -- scotland -- early works to . scotland -- history -- - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal and process of high-treason and doom of forfaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor . by his majesties special command , as a further proof of the late fanatical conspiracy . edinburg , printed by the heir of andrew anderson , printer to his most sacred majesty , and reprinted at london , by tho. newcomb , . the tryal and process of high-treason , and doom of forefaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor . cvria justiciariae s. d. n. regis tanta in praetorio burgi de edinburgh vigesimo tertio die mensis decembris . per nobilem & potentem comitem georgium comitem de linlithgow , dominum livingstoun , &c. justiciarium generalem totius regni scotiae , & honorabiles viros , dominos jacobum foulis de colintoun justiciariae clericum , joannem lockhart de castlehill , davidem balfour de forret , rogerum hoge de harcarss , alexandrum seaton de pitmedden , & patricium lyon de carss , commissionarios justiciariae dicti . s. d. n. regis . curia legitime affirmata . intran mr. robert baillie of jerviswood prisoner indited and accused , that where notwithstanding by the common law of this , and all other well governed nations , the conspiring to overturn the government of the monarchy , or of the established government of this kingdom , or the concealing , and not revealing of any treasonable design , project , or discourse tending thereto ; or the assisting , aiding , or abaiting such as have any such designs , does infer the pains and punishment of treason . and by the third act of the first parliament of king james the first , the rebelling openly against the kings person : and by the thretty seventh act of his second parliament , the resetting , maintaining , or doing favours to open , or notour rebellers against the kings majesty , is declared treason , and punishable by forefaulture . and by the hundred fourty and fourth act of the twelfth parliament of king james the sixth , it is declared treason to reset , supply , or intercommune with traitors . and by the first act of the first session of his majesties first parliament , it is declared , that it shall be high treason for the subjects of this realm , or any number of them , less or more , upon any ground , or pretexi whatsomever , to rise , or continue in arms , to make peace or war , without his majesties special approbation . and by the second act of the second session of his majesties said first parliament , to plot , contrive , or intend death , or destruction , or to put any restraint upon his majesties royal person , or to deprive , depose , or suspend him from the exercise of his royal government , or to levy war , or take up arms against his majesty , or any commissionated by him , or to intice any strangers , or others , to invade any of his majesties dominions , or to write , print , or speak any thing that may express or declare such their treasonable detentions , it declared treason , and punishable as such . likeas , by the second act of his majesties third parliament , it is declared high treason in any of the subjects of this realm , by writing , speaking , or any other manner of way to endeavour the alteration , suspension , or diversion of the right of succession , or debarring the next lawful successour . nevertheless , it is o● verity that the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , shaking off all fear of god , respect and regard to his majesties authority and laws ; and having conceived most unjustly , a great and extraordinary malice and harted against his majesties person and government , and having designed most traiterously to debar his royal highness , his majesties only brother , from his due right of succession , did amongst many other traiterous acts , tending to promove that wicked design , endeavour to get himself elected one of the commissioners for negotiating the settlement of a colony of this nation in carolina , in one or other of the days of the moneths of january , february , march , april , or may , one thousand six hundred and eighty three years ; and that he might thereby have the sreer and better access to treat with the earls of shaftsbury and essix , the lord russel and others , who had entered into a conspiracy in england against his majesties person and government , and with colonel rumsay , walcot , west , and ferguson , and others who had likewise conspired the murder of his majesties sacred person , and of the person of his royal highness ; and finding that he could not get himself elected one of the said commissioners , he resolved to go to london upon his own expenses , and declared to severals ( whom he took great pains to draw in to be his accomplices ) that his design was to push foreward the people of england , who did nothing but talk , that they might go on effectually ; and after he had settled a correspondency here , he did go up to london in one or other of the saids moneths , with sir john cochran and commissar monro , and did then , and there , transact with the saids conspirators , or one or other of them , to get a sum of money to the late earl of argile , a declaired traitor , for bringing home of men and arms , for raising a rebellion against his majesty , and invading this his native countrey ; and so earnest was he in the said design , that he did chide those english conspirators , for not sending the same timcously , and lamented the delayes used in it ; and perswaded the late earl of argile and others in his name to accept of any him , rather than not to engage : and amongst the many meetings that he had at london , for carrying on the said traiterous design , there was one at his own chamber , where he did meet with the lord melvil , sir john cochran , and the cessnocks elder and younger , and amongst others , with mr. william veatch a declared traitor , and there he did treat of the carying on of the said rebellion , and of the money to be furnished by the english for argyle , for buying of armes . and that if the scots would attempt any thing for their own relief , they would get assistance of horse from england ; and from that meeting , he or ane , or other of them did send down mr. robert martin to prevent any rysing , till it should be seasonable for carying on of their designs , which mr. robert , after he came to scotland , did treat with palwart and others , for carying on of the said rebellion , by securing his majesties officers of state , his castles and forces , and by putting his correspondents here , and there associates , in readiness , to assist the late earl of argyle ; and after the said mr. baillie had engadged many of his countrey-men in england , and had assured his correspondants here , that the english were resolved to seclud his royal-highness from his due right of succession , thereby to encourage them to concur in the said rebellion , and exclusion , he flew to that hight , that he did particularly and closly correspond with mr. robert ferguson , sir thomas armstrong , collonel rumsay , and walcot , who were accessory to that horrid part of the couspiracy , which was designed against the sacred life of his majesty , and the life of his royal-highness , and did sit up several nights with them , concerting that bloody massacer : at least the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood was , and is guilty of having correspondence with the late earl of argyle , and mr. william veatch declared traitors , and of being art and part of an conspiracy , for assisting of these who were to rise in arms against his sacred majesty , and for exclusion of his royal brother , and of concealing and not revealing the accession and proposals of others for that effect . wherethrow he has committed , and is guilty of the crymes of high treason , rebellion , and others above specified , and is art and part of the famine , which being found by ane assize , he ought to be punished with forfaulture of life , land and goods , to the terror of others to commit the like hereafter . his majesties advocat produced an act , and warrand from the lords of his majesties most honourable privy council , for pursuing , and insisting against the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , whereof the tenor follows : edinburgh , the twenty two day of december , one thousand six hundred and eighty four years . the lords of his majesties privy council , do hereby give order and warrand to his majesties advocat , to pursue a process of treason and forfaulture , before the lords of his majesties justiciary , against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , to morrow at two a clock in the afternoon preceisly , and the said lords do hereby require and command , sr. george lockhart of carnwath , and sr. john lauder advocats , to concur , and assist in the said process with his majesties advocat , from the intenting until the end thereof , as they will be answerable upon their alledgance . extract by me , sic subscribitur . colin mckenzie , cls. sti. concilij . pursuers . sir george mckenzie of roshaugh our soveraign lords advocat sir george lockhart sir john lauder . advocats . procurators in defence . sir patrick hume . mr. walter pringle . mr. james graham . mr. william fletcher . mr. william baillie . advocats . the pannals procurators produced ane act of his majesties privy council , in their favours , whereof the tenor follows : edinburgh , the twenty third of december , one thousand six hundred eighty four years , the lords of his majesties privy council having considered ane address made to them , by mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , now indited at the instance of his majesties advocat ; before the lords commissioners of justiciary , of treason , do hereby require and command sir patrick hume , mr. walter pringle , mr. james graham , mr. william fletcher , mr. james falcouer , mr. william baillie advocats , to consult , compear , and debate for the petitioner , in the process of treason , mentioned in his address , without any hazard , as they will be answerable at their peril ; extract by me , sic subscribitur . william paterson , cls. sti. concilij . after reading of the inditement ; the lord justice general required the pannal to make answer thereto . the said mr. robert baillie pannal pleaded not guilty . mr. walter pringle advocat , as procurator for the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood pannal , alleadges that he ought not to pass to the knowledge of an assize ; because he had not got a citation upon , fyfteen days , or at least on a competent time , which is usual , and absolutely necessar in all actions , and much more in criminal pursuits , especially , seing , if a competent time be not allowed to the pannal , he is precludit of the benefit of ane exculpation , without which he cannot prove his objections against witnesses , or assyzers , or any other legal , or competent defences ; and by the late act of parliament concerning the justice court , all pannalls are allowed to raise precepts of exculpation , and thereupon to cite witnesses , for proving the objections against witnesses , and assyzers , which necessarily presupposeth , that a competent time must be allowed to the pannal to execut his diligence , or otherwise , how is it possible he can prove an defence of alibi , or any other just defence : and as this is most consonant to that clear act of parliament , and to material justice , and to the rules of humanity , so this point has been already fully and often decided , and lately in the case of one robertson in july . the instance whereof , is given by his majesties advocat in his book of criminals , and title of libels , where the lords found , that albeit robertson got his inditement in prison , yet he behoved to get it upon fifteen dayes . his majesties advocat oppons the constant tract of decisions , whereby it is sound , that a person incarcerated may be tryed upon twenty four houres ; and the late act of parliament is only in the case where a summons or libel is to be raised ; but here there is no libel or summons , but only an inditement ; nor was any exculpation sought in this case , before the tryal , which is the case provided for by the act of parliament . the lords , justice-general , justice-clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , repell the defence , in respect the pannal is a prisoner , and that it has been the constant custom of the court , and that the pannal made no former application for an exculpation . sir patrick hume for the pannal , alleadges ( alwas denying the libel , and whole members , and qualifications thereof ) that in so far as the libel is founded upon harbouring , maintaining , and intercommuning with the persons mentioned in the dittay , the pannal ought to be assoylzied , because it is res hactenus judicata , he having been formerly pursued before the lords of his majesties privy council for the same crimes , and fined in an considerable sum ; and therefore that crime cannot now be made use of as a ground of treason against the pannal . his majesties advocat answers , that he restricts his libel , to the pannals entering in a conspiracy , for raising rebellion , and for procuring money to be sent to the late earl of argile , for carrying on the said rebellion ; and for concealing , and not revealing ; neither of which is referred to his oath ; and consequently was not res judicata , there being nothing referred to his oath ; but his converse and correspondence with some ministers , and others within the kingdom , and his own gardiner , and his writing letters to my lord argile ; and oppons the decreet of council it self , and restricts the libel to all the crimes not insisted on in the decreet . sir patrick hume replyes , that as to ▪ the corresponding with the late earl of argile , at any time since his foresaulture , was expreily proponed as an interrogator to the pannal in that pursuit , at his majesties advocat's instance against him , before the lords of his majesties privy council , and that not only his own correspondence by himself ; but also by major holms , mr. carstares , robert west , thomas shepherd , richard rumbold , and collonel rumsay , as the interrogator bears , as appears by a double of the act of council , written by the clerk of councils servant , and is offered to be proven by my lord advocats oath : and as to any correspondency with mr. veitch ; it is not relevant , since he was not declared rebel . sir john lauder for his majesties interest , answers , that he oppons the decreet of privy council , where no such interrogator was put to the pannal , and the decreet must make more faith than any pretended scroll , and cannot be taken away by his majesties advocats oath , to his majesties prejudice ; and for mr. william veitch , he stands expresly forefault in anno . and the doom of forefaulture , is ratified in the parliament . sir patrick hume oppons the reply , that as to the corresponding with mr. veitch , it does not appear , that he is the person mentioned in the act of parliament ; and albeit he were , as he is not , he having thereafter come home to scotland , all the punishment inflicted upon him was banishment , not to return under the pain of death , which did take off any former punishment ; and it was no crime in any person to intercommune with him , especially in another kingdom ; and by the late act of council in anno . even the conversing , and intercommuning with declared traitors , is restricted to an arbitrary punishment . his majesties advocat oppons the standing doom of forefaulture against veitch , and the proclamation , or act of council it self . the lords , justice-general , justice-clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , having considered the libel , pursued by his majesties advocat , against mr. robert baille of jerviswood , with my lord advocats declaration , whereby he restricts the same to the crimes not insisted on in the decreet of council formerly pronunced against the pannal : they find the same relevant as it is restricted , to infer the pain of treason , and remits the same to the knowledge of the assize , and repells the remnant defences proponed for the pannal , in respect of the decreet of council produced , bearing no such thing as is alleadged , and of the answers made by his majesties advocat thereto . assisa . the earl of strathmore . the earl of belcarras . sir george skeen , provost of aberdene . sir james fleming , late provest or edinburgh . sir john ramsay of whitehill . adam hepburn of humby . andrew bruce of earleshall . john stuart , tutor of alpin . alexander miln of garrin . mr. jams elies of stenhopsmilus . sir william drummond of halthornden . major andrew white , lieutennent of edinburgh-castle . mr. david grahame , sheriff of wigtoun . colin mckenzie , collector of ross . david burnet , merchant . the assise lawfully sworn , no objection of the law in the contrary . his majesties advocat for probation adduced the witnesses and writs aftermentioned ; and first , walter earl of tarras . sir patrick hume procurator for the pannal , objects against the earl of tarras , that he cannot be a witness , because he is socius & particeps criminis ; and it is clear by the . chap. stat. . rob. . concerning these that are excluded from bearing of testimony that socij & participes ejusdem criminis , vel incarcerati & vinculati , cannot bear testimony : as also , the earl of tarras being presently under an inditement of high treason , and under the impressions of fear , and death , no person in his circumstances can be admitted a witness , as is not only clear from the foresaid statute , but from the common law. his majesties advocat answers , that it is an exception from that rule , both by the common law , and ours , that in the crime of lese majestie , and especially , that branch thereof , which we call a conspiracy , socius criminis may be a witnes , and which is introduced very reasonably by lawyers , to secure the common interest of mankind , which is the chief of all interests ; and because conspiracies cannot be otherwayes proved , and not to allow this manner of probation , were to allow treason , since no man can prove a plot , but he that is upon it , and how can a man object against him as a witness , whom himself trusted with his life , his fortune , and their common plot , nor is the intenting of the lybel any stronger qualification , since every man that is socius criminis , is under the same impression , and it would rather seem the greater and nearer apprehensions a man has of death , he will be the more sincere and faithful ; nor has the earl of tarras , nor did he ever seek any security , in order to his deponing . and this has been constantly , and latlie , conform to the common law , as may be seen in the hundreds of citations set down by mascard , de probationibus , vol. . conclus . . num . and the contrary citations prove only , that regularly socius criminis cannot be a witues . sir patrick hume replyes , that the statutes of robert the first is opponed , and non est distinguendum ubi lex non distinguit , and not only was he socius criminis , which is acknowledged , but he is incarceratus , and lying under an indytment of high treason , and has thrown himself on the kings mercy , and it is not proper he should be a witness , seeing he is in the kings mercy , who may give him his life or not , and there was never a person in these circumstances , that ever was admitted a witness . mr. walter pringle adds , that the earl of tarras , is not only in the case of a person who stands lndyted for high-treason ; but must be look'd upon , as a person condemned for the said cryme , seeing he fully , and amply confest the cryme : & confessas habetur pro convicto , and never any lawyer asserted , that damnatus criminis loesae majestatis could be admitted as a witnes , and there is nothing more clear , then that by the common law , and the law of all nations , this objection ought to be sustained , for the civil law is clear , leg . . cod . de testibus and matheus in his title de probationibus , cap. de testibus , doth assert positivlie , that the cryme of lese majestie , heresie , and generally all these crymes quae sine sociis non possunt facile admitti , are not excepted . aud he asserts , that the lawyers , viz. gomesius , & decianus , who are of another opinion , do acknowledge , nominatum a reo damnandum non esse , and that they contravert only , an nominatio rei fit indicium sufficiens ad torquendum nominatum . sir george lockhart repeats , and oppons the answer , and the cryme lybelled , being a conspiration of treason , which of it's own nature is manadged , and caryed on by secrecie and contrivance ; and which is only known to the complices of the treason , and which cannot be commited sine sociis , the law of this kingdom , and of all nations , do allow socios criminis to be testes habites , and not only are they admitted in the case of such conjurations , but generally in omnibus criminibus exceptis , amongst which the crime of perduellion , and lese majestie is the chief , and it is absolutly impossible , that plots , and conspirations of treason can be otherways proven , then per socios , and such as are participes criminis , and which is the common opinion of all lawyers , as may appear by farin . quest : . and the authorities cited by him , and which is the inviolable practique of this kingdom : and as to that pretence , that the earl of tarras is under a process of treason , and has submitted to his majesties mercy , and that confessus habetur pro convicto , it imports nothing , and infers no more then that he is socius criminis , and is still a habil witnes , as to conjuration of treason socius criminis hoc ipso , that it is acknowledged , or proven , being still under the hazard of process , or condemnation , which law regards not in regard of the secrecie involved in the nature of the crime , that either witnesses neque actu neque habitu , can be present , so that the objection amounts to no less then that conjurations of treason cannot at all be proven : and as to the law cited from the majestie , it imports no more then that the objection regulariter procedit , in crimes , which of their own nature are not perdifficilis probationis , and are not inter crimina excepta such as the cryme of conspiracy and treason is . mr. williom fletcher oppons the objection , and reply , and further adds , that albeit crimen loesae majestatis be reckoned inter crimina excepta , and so have some priviledge , as to the qualification of witnesses , yet it cannot be denyed , but there are some objections competent against witness adduced for proving conspiracies , and treason , verbi causa , that a witnes is a capital enemy , or that he is sub potestate accusatoris , and the objection now pleaded , being taken complexlie , viz. that the earl of tarras is not only socius criminis , but also , that he is publico judicio reus , upon the same crime , and that as means to procure his majesties savour , he has submitted himself , and come in his majesties mercy , by an acknowledgment of the cryme , before the dyet of citation , he is obnoxious to a most just objection , viz. that he is sub potestate , and by the submission , and confession , his life and estate is now in his majesties hands , so that he is not only in the case of a reus confessus , but in the case of a witnes , who does absolutely depend upon his majesties advocate the pursuer ; and as a private accuser , could not addace his own servants to be witnesses , because they are testes domestici , and depend upon him , so far less ought a witnes to be adduced , who not only depends , as to his estate , but as to his life , and the law gives a very good reason , and which is mentioned by paulus , lib. . receptarum sententiarum , cap. . parag . ult . in these words . dese confessus , non est audiendus ut testis , ne alienam salutem in dubium deducat qui de sua desperavit ; and as to the pretence that a conjuration is a cryme so occult , that it must either be proven by such witnesses , or otherways the guilty person will escape . it is answered , that in this case . his majesties advocate had an easie remedie , for he might have pursued the pannal , before he pursued the witness , and the terror and appreheasion of the event of a process for treason cannot be constructed otherways , then to have influence upon the deposition of the witnes ; and as to the citation out of farinacius , it is only in the case of socius criminis , but when he comes to treat de teste accusato vel carcerato . quest . . articulo to . he sayes , regula sit in accusato quod is pendent● accusatione à testimonio repellitur . and be the d . rule of the same article , he sayes , it is a principle quod carceratus testimonium ferre prohibetur , and he gives this reason , quia praesumitur , quod salsum testimonium diceret pro aliquo qui ei promiserit se liberare a vinculo , and limits this rule , that he must be carceratus propter crimen . sir patrick hume adds , that it is a certain principle , that any person that is guilty infamia juris , cannot be a witness , no more than a person that is convict , and condemned of treason ; and if he were convict , and condemned of treason , he could not be a witness , even in the case of treason : so neither can the earl of tarras in this case be received a witness , for he being adduced a witness after he received his inditment , and confessed the crime , is equivalent , as if he had been actuall convict ; and whatever may be pretended , that testes infames may be admitted ; yet it was never asserted by any lawyer , that a person convict of treason can be admitted a witness . the lords repelled the objection against the earl of tarras , and ordains him to be received a witness . walter earl of tarras , aged fourty years , married , purged , and sworn ; being interrogat , if about the time that sir john cochran , and commissar monro got their commission from the carolina company for london , the pannal mr. robert baillie of jerviswood did not desire the deponent to speak to commissar monro , to try if he could get him the said pannal added to that commission , depones affirmative . being interro●at , if the said jerviswood , the pannal , did not tell the deponent that he was resolved to go to london however upon his own expenses , and that his and their going about the carolina bussiness , was but a pretence , and a blind ; but that the true design was , to push foreward the people of england who could do nothing but talk , to go more effectually about their bussiness , depones affirmative . depones that the pannal did settle a correspondence with the deponent whereby he was to give an account to the deponent of what should pass betwixt the countrey party in england , and the scots men there : and on the other hand , the deponent was to write to him what occurred here , depones that the pannal did say to the deponent , if the king would suffer the parliament of england to sit , and pass the bill of seclusion , that that was the only way to secure the protestant religion . depones that the pannal said to him , that the king might be induced to do so , if the parliament would take sharp or brisk measures with him , or the like . depones these words were spoke to him by the pannal , since the holding of the last session of this current parliament ; and before the pannal and commissar monro went for london . depons that after the pannal went to london , he did give the deponent an account by letters , that things were in great disorder there , and that he hoped there would be effectual courses taken to remeid them . depones that mr. robert martin did come to mr. pringle of torwoodlies house in may . or thereby , and brought a letter to the deponents lady unsubscribed , but the deponent knows it was jerviswoods hand-writing , who was then at london , and that mr. martin told the deponent , that things in england were in great disorder , and like to come to a hight , and that the countrey party were considering on methods for securing the protestant religion . and that archibald , sometime earl of argile , was to get ten thousand pounds sterling , whereas thirty thousand pounds sterling was sought by the scotsmen at london , which was to be sent over to holland to provide arms ; and that the late earl of argile was to land with these armes in the west-highlands of scotland , and that the deponents friend jerviswood the pannal , was to be sent over with the money . depones that philiphaugh and he went to gallowshiels house , where they met with polwort and gallowshiels , and that it was talked amongst them there , that in case those in england should rise in arms , that it was necessary in that case , that so many as could be got on the borders should be in readiness to deal with straglers and seize upon horses , and that thereafter they should joyn with those that were in arms on the borders of england . depons that in the case foresaid , it was said , it was convenient the castle of stirling , berwick , and some other strengths should be seiz'd upon ; and it was likewise spoke amongst them , that some persons should be employed to inquire what arms was in that countrey . depons , that it was spoke then , that the best time for argyle was to land in the west when there was a stur in england , or scotland , or words to that purpose . depons , that every one desired another to speak to such particular persons as they could trust , by letting a word fall indirectly upon supposition , in case of the rising in england concerning the affair for preparing of them : and that he was told by philiphaugh thereafter , that there was a word and sign to be used amongst them , viz. the sign was by loosing a button on the breast , and that the word was harmony . depons , the pannal spoke to the deponent to advertise torwoodlie , that he might acquaint mr. william veitch a forfault traitor , who was in northumberland , that he might keep himself close , and be on his guard , lest he should be catch'd ; which was since the pannal was prisoner in the tolbooth of edinburgh . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , tarras , linlithgow . i. p. d. alexander monro of bear-crofts , aged fourty five years , or thereby ; solutus , solemnly sworn and purg'd . depons , that the earl of tarras proposed to the deponent , that jerviswood might be made one of the commissioners for the affair of carolina , for that he could not safely stay at home ; and that the deponents answer was that he had no interest in the affair , and so could not be a commissioner . depons , that the pannal did wait for the deponent at wooller , and did go alongst with him to london , and that by the way he heard him regrate his own hazard and others , because of blackwoods sentence ; and that he heard him regrate the hazard our laws , and liberties , and the protestant religion were in . depons , that the pannal spoke to the deponent and others , more then once at london for getting of money from the english to be sent to the late earl of argile , for bringing home arms for the said earls use , as he understood , for carrying on an insurrection , and rebellion in scotland . depons , that at the time libelled , in jerviswoods chamber in london , mr. william veitch a forfault traitor was present ; and that sir john cochran did at that meeting expressly speak of money to be sent to argile for bringing home arms for invading the kingdom of scotland ; and that at another occasion he heard some of them say , that there would be twenty thousand men in scotland who would assist the rebellion , and that he heard sir john cochran and jerviswood speaking of it , but cannot be positive which of the two said it . depons , that at the meeting he heard jerviswood speak , but did not hear him oppose that treasonable proposal , or contradict the overture proposed by sir john cochran . depons , that mr. robert martin was sent down from that meeting which was at jerviswoods chamber , to scotland , to try what the people of scotland would do for their own safety : and that it was understood that the people of scotland should not rise till there should be a rising in england , and that the commission was granted to mr. robert martin by all the persons present , whereof jerviswood was one , and that there were present the lord melvill , sir john cochran , cessnocks elder and younger , mr. william carstares , mr. william veitch , jerviswood , and the deponent ; and depons they did contribute money for mr. martius journey . depons , that at his return he meeting with the deponent , told him , that matters were in that condition in scotland , and that the countrey was in such a condition as little would kindle the fire in order to the rebellion . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , alexander monro , linlithgow , i. p. d. james murray of philiphaugh , aged . years , married , purged and sworn , produces sour leaves of depositions , emitted by him before the lords of the secret committie , and all written and subscribed with his own hand , which being publickly read , in presence of the justices , and assize , he adheres thereto , in all points , whereof the tenot follows . upon the day of may , . upon a letter from mr. pringle of torwoodlie , i came to his house in the morning , and he presently led me to a chamber , where i found mr robert martin , who was lately come from london , with whom we stayed a little , and discoursed of the news , and about the present condition , and temper of england , and in particular of london , which mr. martin said , was much irritated through some attemps upon their priviledges , either as to the concern of the sheriffs , or their charter , but that all honest men were of good heart and very brisk , and after some general discourses to this purpose , torwoodlie , and i left him , and walked out a little , and he told me , he was expecting the e. of tarras presently , for he had sent to him ; and mr. martin had a letter to him from jerviswood , then he told me that there were great matters in agitation at london , and that mr. martin had come down with a commission from our friends there , ( i do not remember he named any ) but that i behoved not to expect , he would impart his instructions to me , for he was to communicat them only to polwart and himself , ( at least for these shyres ) and they were to pitch on such as they thought fit to intrust with the affair , whereupon he assured me , that he had great confidence in me , and his kindness to me oblidged him to send for me , to acquaint me that matters were now come to a crisis , and that he had reason to think england would shortly draw to arme , and stand by them , till they were satisfied anent the bill of exclusion , and what other security they could propose for the protestant religion , and their liberties , and that it was no project of any inconsiderable party but a design through the kingdom , and that many of the finest men , and of the greatest interest and credit there , had adjusted almost every thing necessar for the purpose , and had concerted matters with our friends there , in order to concurrence from this , and had agreed to advance money for furnishing arms here , ( i do not remember he told me more particulars at this time ) but said , polwart would be at gallow-shiels that night , and it would be necessar that the e. of tarras and i should confer with him fully , on the business , about this time the e. of tarras lighted , and torwoodlie having left us for a little time , being gone to bring mr. martin , the e. of tarras asked me , what news , i told him of mr. martins being there , but that he had given me no account of the design of his down-coming , which perhaps he would acquaint him with , but by what i had heard from torwoodlie , i understood it to be , to engadge us to rise in arms shortly , whereat the e. of tarras hummed , and said , he would look ere he leapt , such a leap , or some such expressions , presently mr. martin came , and the e. of tarras and he retired a little , after the reading an letter , he gave him , the contents whereof was ( as the e. of tarras informed me ) only an order from jerviswood , to deliver some money to the bearer , which he had left with him , and the e. of tarras called for his servant , and bad him bring up the money ; in the mean time , torwoodlie asked me , if i had acquainted the e. of tarras with what he spoke to me , and i told him , i had let something of it fall to him , but it was not to be thought , that persons of sense and quality would engadge in such designs at random ; so torwoodlie said , that ( though mr. martin would not commune with us upon his commission directly ) yet he thought it would be fit , we conferred , and without taking notice of his commission , discoursed of things upon suppositions , and as our own privat notions , abstract from any prospect of a present design , so after dinner , we four went to a chamber , and after some general discourses , of the discontents of both kingdoms , these suppositions following were discoursed ( and as i remember ) mr. martin started them all , or the most part ) viz. what if the countrey party in england should have thoughts of going to arms ( whereof he knew nothing but only supposed such a thing , for discoursing a little freely , and to know our sentiments , what we thought could be expected here in such a case ) would it not be expedient to have a settled correspondence betwixt that party there and here , and might not matters be so adjusted , that both kingdoms should draw out in one day , and might not as many be expected to undertake in these shires , and about edinburgh , as would serve to surprize , and seize our rulers ( i do not remember any named , but the then chancellour and treasurer ) and some to joyn with these on the english borders , to assist them to surprize berwick , and if for that effect , any horse , or dragoons , that should be in the bounds might not be surprized , that their horse and arms might be gotten to furnish the country people , and stirling castle ; and if argile should at the same time land in the west , and raise that countrey , would not these measures contribute much to the advancement and security of the interest of that party here , since thereby the government would be disordered , and such steps would encourage all that had an inclination to the countrey party , to draw to them frankly , and fear many of the other side to act against them , and so they might have leasure to joyn from all places ; and might it not be expected , there would be as many in this kingdom , as would be able to deal with the forces here , at least divert them from troubling england . this is the sum , as i remember , of what was proposed , and discourst of , though i cannot distinctly say , it was in this method , and expression , nor was all moved at once , but droped now and then , as the discourse seem'd to give rise to it ; and though i cannot fully re count all that was spoke on these heads , and tell distinctly , what this and that man said ; yet i remember these following answers were giving , and ( as i judged ) acquiesced to by the whole company ; and they were certainly the e. of tarras , his sentiments and mine , and every one that spoke , used this or some such precaution , that if they were concerned , or to give counsel in any such case , ( as they were not , &c. ) . as to the settling a correspondence , it was confest to be very convenient for those of a common interest ; but the present circumstances of affairs were such ( as we thought , ) that none could be found here who was fit to mannage it , and would undertake it . . as to the trysting at the same time , it could not be done without the devulging the design to all ranks of people , which none would undertake , except these already in desperat circumstances , and they could not have generally much influence . . the thing was not at all adviseable for this kingdom , since if any of englands own measures miscarried , they would not stur for any such trust ; and the spring of their motions being always at london , there might happen an interruption near the appointment , whereof these here could have no timous notice , and so might keep tryst , whereby they would be exposed a prey ; and if they should subsist any time , or prevail ( which was hardly possible ) the multitude that must be imployed , are tainted with such wild and unruly principles , that if once they got the sword in their hands , they would never be brought to order without a greater force to over-awe them ; neither would any expectation of argiles landing , be a just ground for such a tryst , considering the uncertainty of sea-voyages ; and if argile were to be the head , undoubtedly many people would conclude that he were to be suspected of private designs , and that restoring him , might lay him aside : as also , that dispair might blind his usual prudence , ●nd prompt him to unsolid , and undigested methods ; and so it was to be expected , that few of the gentry ( except such as he had special influence on , or such as were under hard circumstances ) could embarque with him , . as to the surprising rulers , &c. it was inveigh'd against , as an action not to be thought of amongst protestants ( especially when the very design of it was pretended , to secure that religion , which taught its professors to abhor and detest such principles as popish , yea un-christian ) since it could not be effectuat without blood-shed of people , secure in peace , which being by all approven , divines and casuists condemned as unlawful , and meer assassination ; it was not to be doubted , that as such a practice would cast a blot upon the whole affair , and quite take off any pretence of defensive arms , so it would scar many from joyning . these things were reasoned again and again : but i do not remember there was any formal conclusion made , but the discourse was let fall ; and mr. martin told us , if any of us had a mind for a suit of armour , he could provide as many as we pleased , from one who had made a great many lately , to honest men at london , of a new fashion , very light , and at an easie rate ; so torwoodlie and i gave him our measures , e. of tarras told he had a suit already ; then torwoodlie said to the e. of tarras and me , we would meet polwart at gallowsheils , and desired we might commun with him , anent what we had been discoursing , so we hasted away , that if possible , we might both get home that night , it being saturnday , and we unfurnished , for staying abroad , and torwoodlie whispered me just as i was mounting ( as i think ) that he was not clear we should commun before gallowshiels , for he was sometimes too much good-fellow , or the like ; so the e. of tarras and i rod away together , and upon the way we were both of opinion , that the suppositions we had discoursed of , were in effect propositions , and resolv'd , if they were insisted on by polwort , as we suspected , we would adhere to the former answer , and would undertake nothing in these methods ; when we came to gallowsheils , the laird was abroad , and polwort was not come , so we had thoughts to go away , being both damped with what had passed , and inclining to be free of farder medling ; but the lady would by no means hear of our going till her husband came , who , she assured us , was about the doors , and she having sent to call him , he would be in presently ; yet it was so late ere he came , that the e. of tarras could hardly have day enough to go home with ; so gallowsheils would not let him go , and he would not stay , unless i stay'd , so we both stayed , and not being resolv'd to discourse with gallowsheils on what passed , we we it to the tavern , on pretence i might call the baillie , and seek horses or lime , and stay'd there till polwort came ( which seemed unknown to gallowsheils ) then we returned to gallowsheils house , and after supper polwort whispered the e. of tarras and me , and enquired if we had seen mr. martin ; and we having told him we had , he enquired , if we were free to commun on the affair before gallowsheils , we told , as he thought fit , for we could trust him ; then he whispered gallonsheils , and ( as i understood afterwards ) asked if he was free to commune on matters of great secrecy and importance with that company , to which he assented , then we sat down closs together , and as i remember , polwort began the discourse : but since i am not able to follow exactly the method of our conference , or keep the very expressions used , or repeat all that was spoke , or to tell distinctly what was every mans part of the discourse ; i shall set down the heads , and most remarkable passages thereof , that i remember in some articles following ; . polwort signified that he was credibly informed ( but i do not remember he named his informer ) that the countrey party in england would draw to the fields shortly , as he heard before lambass , wherewith gallowsheils seem'd visibly surprized ; and being asked , if his heart fail'd him already , he said he did love it better truly to be walking in his own parks in peace , and quiet , than to be medling in such matters ; however he assured the company , that if there came anytroublesome world , he would joyn with them firmly ; and the e. of tarras said , he wondred to hear of any such resolution in england , for he took it for a principle amongst that party there , that they should make no stir in the kings life ( which the whole company owned to be their opinion and desire ) because that might strengthen the dukes interest ; and he suspected it was the project of the common-wealths men , with whom he believed , few scots gentlemen would joyn ; and he was almost perswaded the d. of monmouth would not concur in any rising during the kings life , to which it was answered by polwort , that he had indeed heard that principle had been generally agreed to , but it seem'd they found , they behoved either to do their business now , or lay aside hopes of doing it hereafter , which might be , that if the charter of london were let fall , they would not only lose all safe opportunity of digesting matters ; but a great part of their strength , and he heard all things were concerted mutually , betwixt monmouths friends and the heads of the commonwealth party ; and tho he heard monmouth was shy on that account , yet it was hop'd he would engage , for otherways he would be deserted by that party . . polwort told us the suppositions above-written as overtures concerted betwixt our friends at london , and the principal men of that party there ; so the e of tarras and i renewed our former answers also above-written , and maintained them with all our vigour , wherein gallowsheils joyned forwardly with us ; and polwort asserted , we went on very good grounds , and he was fully of our opinion , if things were entire but referr'd it to be considered , whether it were better to comply with some of these methods , tho not so proper and justifiable as were to be wish'd , then to disappoint the business totally , which might be of the best consequence to all the party , yet we did not condescend as i remember to undertake any of these methods . and there was a further argument adduced against the trysting above-written , viz. that it was talked there was a day appointed in england latly in shafisberry's time , which did not hold , so they were not to be relyed upon . . it was proposed to be considered what methods were most proper in the companies opinon for scotland to follow in case of englands rising , whereanent it was said , that all that could be expected or desired from scotland , was , that upon the certain news of englands being in the fields , those in the southern shires who would own that party , should presently rise , and ( how soon they could get as many conven'd as would be able to deal with stragling parties , or any sudden rising in the countrey ) march to joyn them , and that it would be fit these in the northern shires of england waited near the borders for such , and that they had officers trysted there to command , and that then it would be seasonable for argile to land in the west , and these parties on the borders might divert the forces till he had time to put himself in a posture . these things seem'd to be the sentiments of the whole company , but were not finally determined till the opinion of others who were to be communed with by polwort were known : and it was represented , there behoved not to be any wilful and obstinate adhering to our own thoughts of things , ( but an mutual condescendance to others concerned , ) otherwise it were not possible to bring a publick design to any good issue . . all the company seem'd to agree , that they should undertake nothing or move in that affair , till they had a full and certain account what england proposed , what methods they resolved to follow there , who were to be their heads , and that if they design'd any attempt on the kings person , or overturning monarchy , they would not be forward or clear to joyn : and it being here insinuated , that the most they could do ( at least for which there could be any plausible pretence to justifie ) was to draw together , and without any act of hostility , send addresses to his majesty for redress of the present abuses of the government , and for obtaining sufficient security against the hazard they apprehended to their religion and liberties . it was said by polwort that he was apt to think , that was their very design , for he had heard it was generally believed by that party in england , that if once they were in a body , the king would be prevailed with to quite the duke , to be tryed for popery , correspondence with france , and accession to the popish plot , and then if the king were once free from the influence of the dukes counsels , they were confident he might be moved to reform their abuses , and secure their religion and liberties for the future to their contentment . . it was resolved , that till we got the foresaid account from england . and were satisfied thereanent , and knew others here ( who were to be communed with ) their sentiements of what methods were most proper for us , in case we should undertake , we should not meddle further ; only it was left to the earl of tarras and me , if we thought fit to acquaint sir william scot younger with some of the matter of this conference overly , without taking notice of our informers , or such an conference ; and it was recommended to all to be enquiring ( at such as they had some trust in ) indirectly about the affection of our neigbours , and what arms there was amongst them ; that if we should get an satisfying account , and resolve to joyn , we might know where to seek men and arms suddenly : here it was said by polwort , as i think , that if the e. of tarras , torwoodlie , gallowsheils , and i once took horse , he thought the most part of the west end of tiviotdale and selkirk shire would soon come to us , especially , when they heard england was risen , then we trysted to meet there against midsummer fair , betwixt and which the forsaid account was expected , but in case it came to any of our hands sooner , we promised to advertise the rest , that we might meet , presently , if the case required ; this is the substance and sum of what passed at the forsaid conference , that i can now remember ; but i remember , i was likewise told these following particulars in privat , by polwart , or torwoodlie , ( which of them , i cannot distinctly tell ) the day of the forsaid conference , or within a short time after . . that polwart keeped the correspondence with our friends at london , i remember not positively of any of them that was named , to be on the entrigue there , except my lord melvil , sir john cochran , jerviswood , and commissar monro ( for i hardly knew any of the rest ) and as i think , commissar monro was call'd his correspondent there . . that the money to be advanced by the english partie to scotland was ready , when mr. martin came from london , and it was expected , that within few days after , it would be dispatched with some confident to holland , ( whither by bills , or in cash , i cannot say ) it was call'd ten thousand pound sterlin , and was to be imployed ( as i was told ) by that confident , at argyles sight , for buying arms , providing ships to transport them with argyle , to the west here , and such other charges . . that how soon our friends at london got notice of the safe arrival , of the confident forsaid , and all other things were finally concluded there ( which was expected would be about the middle of june , as i remember ) they would come home , and as they passed , would give them , or one of them , an particular account of all resolutions taken to be communicat to the rest , that it was not to be expected by letters , that behoved to be under figures , and dark expressions , and as i remember , they were , written as it were about the carolina business , or some houshold furniture , as i was told , for i never remember i saw any letter , either direct to london , or sent from it on that head . . i was told there was a sign , and a word agreed on by that party , so that men might know with whom they might use freedom , the word , as i remember was harmony , and the sign , the opening two buttons in the breast coat and shutting them presently ; this i communicat to the earl of tarras , but does not mind i ever saw it used , except when i visited park-hay here in town , about the end of june ; we discoursing a little freely , he asked if i had the word and sign of the carolina men , and i having given them , he said something to this purpose , that he was afraid that the carolina business did not go well , for there had been some of the managers expected here ( as i think he named jerviswood or commissar monro ) these eight days past , but there was none come , nor could he learn that any of their friends had heard from them for several posts . polwart , torwoodlie , and i met at gallowsheils , on midsummer fair , but i mind nothing passed but private whisperings . dated september . . and subscrived thus , james murray . edinburgh , december . . the deposition above-written being read to the said james murray of philiphaugh , in presence of the justices and assizers , he adheres thereto in all points upon oath . sic subscribitur , james murray . linlithgow , i. p. d. the said james murray further depons , that at their meeting at gallowsheils , it was resolved , that they should keep up their cess unpayed till their next meeting at midsummer , which was to be at gallowsheils , and should deal with all these they had influence upon to do the like , and that upon the supposition mentioned in his oath given in . it was spoke amongst them that the troupers horses should be seized upon , when they were grasing . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , james murray . linlithgow , i. p. d. hvgh scot of gallowsheils , aged . years , married , purged , &c. and sworn . depons , that the earl of tarras and philiphaugh did come to the deponents house , in may , . and polwart came likewise there , where there were discourses and proposals , that if the english would rise in arms , their friends in the south shires should rise with them ; and that they should seize the horses belonging to the kings troops where they grased ; and the town of berwick , and the castle of stirling : and likewise it was there discoursed anent the late earl of argiles coming to invade scotland , but because of the uncertainty of sea voyages , there was not much stress laid upon it . depons , it was also proposed , that some of the south countrey whom they trusted in should be acquainted with it , and that endeavours should be used to learn what arms was in the countrey . depons , there was some such discourse there , as that the earl of tarras , philiphaugh , torwoodlie , polwart , and some others should draw to horse with the first when the rising should be in readiness , that it might be expected that the south parts of teviotdale and selkirk shire would joyn with them . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , hugh scot. linlithgow , i. p. d. his majesties advocat produc'd other depositions , emitted by gallowsheils before the lords of the secret committee , whereof the tenor follows . edinburgh , the of september . gallowsheils depons , that the e. of tarras and philiphaugh , being in his house in may . discoursed of an intended rising in england , and of proposals made to scots men , to rise with them , and of london in particular , and that polwort was present at that meeting , and told he was sure the englishmen intended so , and that it was discoursed at that meeting amongst them , that it were fit to seize berwick and stirling ; and that it was talked amongst them of bringing the duke of york to tryal , and that the king would abandon him . sic subscribitur , hugh scot. perth , cancel . queensberry george mckenzie . jo. drummond . george mckenzie . edinburgh , october . . sederunt . lord chancellour . lord secretary . lord president . lord advocat . the laird of gallowsheils , prisoner in the tolbuith of edinburgh , being call'd and examin'd upon oath , depons , that in the moneth of may . the e. of tarras , hume of polwort elder , and laird of philiphaugh , came to the deponents house , himself being absent , at his coming home , they were speaking of the security of the protestant religion ; and of a party in england , who would secure , or seize the king or duke , and that if any should rise in arms to defend them , or to rescue the king and duke : there was another party who would rise in arms against them , it was proposed , that some countrey men should be spoken to , to try their resolutions , and that the resolutions , of england should be told them , to see if they would concur . but the deponent does not remember that this proposition was approven , or undertaken to be done by any present ; nor does he remember who manag'd the discourse . it was likewise propos'd , to seize the officers of state , especially the chancellour and thesaurer , and the said , sir john cochran was to come to the west from england , for advancement of the design ; and that the earl of argile was to land in the west highlands , and to raise that countrey . of these matters , all these who were present discoursed , as of an affair that they were agitating , and wherein themselves were particularly concerned , though at that time they did not conclude what their carriage should be ; the reason why the deponent cannot be more particulars is , because he was sometimes going out , and sometimes walking up and down the room ; and though the deponent cannot be positive of the very words ; yet he is positive they were either these words , or words to that purpose . sic subscribitur , hugh scot. perth cancellarius . edinburgh , december . . hvgh scot of gallowsheils being solemnly sworn in presence of the justices and assize , adheres to the depositions within , and above-written in all points , sic subscribitur . hugh scot. linlithgow , i. p. d. his majesties advocat in fortification of the former probation , adduces the printed copy of mr. william carstares depositions , emitted before the officers of state , and other lords of privy council , and leaves the same to the assise , and uses it as an adminicle of probation ; for though it was capitulat , that he should not be made use of as a witness ; yet it was agreed , that the deposition should be published : and likewise produces the principal deposition signed by himself , and the said lords . the lords , justice-general , justice-clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , admit the paper produced as an adminicle , and refers the import thereof to the inquest , and ordains the printed paper as it is collationed , to be taken in , and considered by the inquest . sir william paterson , and mr. colin mckenzie , clerks of his majesties privy council being interrogat , if they heard mr. william carstares own the depositions read , depons they saw and heard him swear , and own the same upon oath , and they collationed the printed copie with the original formerly , and now they heard it collationed , sic subscribitur , will. paterson . colin mckenzie . the deposition of mr. william carstares , when he was examined before the lords of secret committee , given in by him , and renewed upon oath ; upon the . of december . in presence of the lords of his majesties privy council . edinburgh castle , september . . mr. william carstares being examined upon oath , conform to the condescention given in by him , and on the terms therein-mentioned ; depons , that about november , or december . james stuart , brother to the laird of cultness , wrot a letter to him from holland , importing , that if any considerable sum of money could be procur'd from england , that something of importance might be done in scotland : the which letter , the deponent had an inclination to inform shepherd in abb-church-lane , merchant in london of ; but before he could do it , he wrot to mr. stuart above-nam'd to know from him , if he might do it ; and mr. stuart having consented , he communicat the said letter to mr. shepherd , who told the deponent that he would communicat the contents of it to some persons in england ; but did at that time name no body , as the deponent thinks : sometime thereafter , mr. shepherd told the deponent , that he had communicat the contents of the letter above-named , to colonel sidney , and that colonel danvers was present , and told the deponent , that colonel sidney was averse from imploying the late earl of argile , or medling with him , judging him a man too much affected to the royal family , and inclin'd to the present church-government ; yet mr. shepherd being put upon it by the deponent , still urg'd , that one might be sent to the earl of argile ; but as mr. shepherd told him , he was suspected upon the account of his urging so much ; yet afterwards he press'd , without the deponents knowledge , that the deponent being to go to holland however , might have some commission to the earl of argile , which he having inform'd the deponent of , the deponent told him , that he himself would not be concern'd , but if they would ▪ send another , he would introduce him ; but nothing of this was done : upon which the deponent went over , without any commission from any body , to holland , never meeting with james stuart above-named : he was introduc'd to the earl of argile , with whom he had never before conversed , and did there discourse what had past betwixt mr. shepherd and him ; and particularly , about remitting of money to the said earl from england ; of which the said mr. stuart had written to the deponent , namely of pounds sterling ; and of the raising of horse and dragoons ; and the securing the castle of edinburgh , as a matter of the greatest importance : the method of doing this was proposed by the deponent , to be one hour , or thereby , after the relieving of the guards : but the earl did not relish this proposition , as dangerous ; and that the castles would fall of consequence , after the work abroad was done . james stuart was of the deponents opinion for seizing the castle , because it would secure edinburgh , the magazines and arms ; as to the horse and dragoons , my lord argile was of opinion , that without them nothing was to be done ; and that if that number were rais'd in england to the said earl , he would come into scotland with them ; and that there being so few horse and dragoons to meet them , he judg'd he might get the country without trouble , having such a standing body for their friends to rendezvous to ; and the said earl said he could show the deponent the conventient places for landing , if he understood ; and as the deponent remembers , where the ships could attend . the deponent remembers not the names of the places . the deponent spoke to the lord stairs ; but cannot be positive that he nam'd the affair to him , but found him shy : but the earl of argile told him , he thought stairs might be gain'd to them : and that the earl of lowdoun being a man of good reason , and disobliged , would have great influence upon the countrey , and recommended the deponent to major holms with whom the deponent had some acquaintance before , and had brought over a letter from him to the earl of argyle ; but the deponent had not then communicate any thing to the said holms , james steuart laid down a way of correspondence by cyphers and false names , and sent them over to holms , and the deponent , for their use ( which cyphers and names , are now in the hands of his majesties officers , as the deponent supposes , ) and did desire the deponent earnestly to propose the . pound sterling abovenamed to the party in england , and did not propose any less ; for as the earl told the deponent , he had particularly calculate the expence for arms , ammunition , &c. but james steuart said , that if some less could be had , the earl would content himself , if better might not be ; but the earl always said , that there was nothing to be done without the body of horse and dragoons above-mentioned . during the time of the deponent his abode in holland , tho he had several letters from shepard , yet there was no satisfactory account , till some time after the deponent parted from the earl of argyle , and was making for a ship at rotterdam to transport himself to england . james steuart wrot to him that there was hopes of the money . the next day after the deponent came to england , he met with sir john cochran , who , with commissar monro , and jerviswood , was at london before he came over ; and depons , that he knows not the account of their coming , more then for the perfecting the transaction about carolina : and having acquainted sir john cochran with the earls demands of the pound sterling and the . horse and dragoons , sir john carried him to the lord russel , to whom the deponent proposed the affair , but being an absolute stranger to the deponent , had no return from him at that time ; but afterwards having met him accidently at mr. shepards house , where he the lord russel had come to speak to shepard about the money above-named , as mr. shepard told the deponent . the deponent ( when they were done speaking ) desired to speak to the lord russel , which the lord russel did , and having reiterate the former proposition for . pound sterling , and the . horse and dragoons , he the lord russel told the deponent , they could not get so much raised at the time , but if they had . pound to begin , that would draw people in , and when they were once in , they would soon be brought to more ; butas for the . horse and dragoons , he could say nothing at the present , for that behoved to be concerted upon the borders . the deponent made the same proposal to mr. ferguson , who was much concerned in the affair , and zealous for the promoving of it . this mr. ferguson had in october or november before , as the deponent remembers in a conversation with the deponent in cheapside , or the street somewhere thereabout , said , that for the saving of innocent blood , it would be necessary to cut off a few , insinuating the king and duke , but cannot be positive whether he named them or not , to which the deponent said , that 's work for our wild people in scotland , my conscience does not serve me for such things ; after which the deponent had never any particular discourse with ferguson , as to that matter ; but as to the other affair , ferguson told the deponent that he was doing what he could to get it effectuate , as particularly that he spoke to one major wildman who is not of the deponent his acquaintance . ferguson blamed always sidney , as driving designs of his own . the deponent met twice or thrice with the lord melvil , sir john cochran , jerviswood , commissar monro , the two cessnocks , mongomery of landshaw , and one mr. veitch , where they discoursed of money to be sent to argyle , in order to the carrying on the affair , and tho he cannot be positive the affair was named , yet it was understood by himself , and as he conceives by all present , to be for rising in arms , for rectifying the government . commissary monro , lord melvil , and the two cessnocks were against medling with the english , because they judged them men that would talk , and would not do , but were more inclined to do something by themselves , if it could be done . the lord melvil thought every thing hazardous , and therefore the deponent cannot say he was positive in any thing , but was most inclined to have the duke of monmouth to head them in scotland , of which no particular method was laid down . jerviswood , the deponent , and mr. veitch , were for taking money at one of these meetings . it was resolved , that mr. martin , late clerk to the justice court should be sent to scotland , to desire their friends to hinder the countrey from rising , or taking rash resolutions upon the account of the council , till they should see ▪ how matters went in england . the said martin did go at the charges of the gentlemen of the meeting , and was directed to the laird of polwart and torwoodlie , who sent back word that it would not be found so easie a matter to get the gentrie of scotland to concur : but afterwards in a letter to commissar monro , polwart wrote that the countrey was readier to concur then they had imagined , or something to that purpose . the deponent , as above-said , having brought over a key from holland , to serve himself and major holms : he remembers not that ever he had an axact copy of it , but that sometimes the one , sometimes the other keeped it , and so it chanced to be in his custody when a letter from the earl of argyle came to major holms , intimating , that he would joyn with the duke of monmouth , and follow his measures , or obey his directions . this mr. veitch thought fit to communicate to the duke of monmouth , and for the understanding of it was brought to the deponent , and he gave the key to mr. veitch , who as the deponent , was informed , was to give it and the letter to mr. ferguson , and he to shew it to the duke of monmouth ; but what was done in it , the deponent knows not . the deponent heard the design of killing the king and duke , from mr. shepard , who told the deponent some were full upon it . the deponent heard that aron smith was sent by those in england to call sir john cochran , on the account of carolina , but that he does not know aron smith , nor any more of that matter , not being concerned it it . shepard named young hamden frequently as concerned in these matters . signed at edinburgh castle , the . of september , . and renewed the of the same month. william carstares . perth cancell . i. p. d. edinburgh castle september . mr. william carstares being again examined , adheres to his former deposition , in all the parts of it , and depones he knows of no correspondence betwixt scotland and england , except by martin before named ; for those gentlemen to whom he was sent , were left to follow their own methods . veitch sometimes , as the deponent remembers , stayed sometimes an nicolson , stabler's house , at london-wall ; sometimes with one widow hardcastle in more-fields . the deponent did communicate the design on foot to doctor owen , mr. griffil , and mr. meed , at stepney , who all concurred in the promoting of it , and were desirous it should take effect ; and to one mr. freth in the temple , councellor at law , who said that he would see what he could do in reference to the money , but there having gone a report , that there was no money , to be raised , he did nothing in it ; nor does the deponent think him any more concerned in the affair . nelthrop frequently spoke to the deponent of the money to be sent to argyle , whether it was got or not , but the deponent used no freedom with him in the affair . goodenough did insinuate once , that the lords were not inclined to the thing , and that before , they would see what they could do in the city . the deponent saw mr. ferguson , and mr. rumsay , lurking after the plot broke out , before the proclamation , having gone to ferguson , in the back of bishopsgate-street , at some new building , whether he was directed by jerviswood , who was desirous to know how things went. rumsay was not of the deponent his acquaintance before , but they knew as little of the matter as the deponent . this is what the deponent remembers , and if any thing come to his memory , he is to deliver it in betwixt the first of october . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. william carstares perth , cancell . i. p. d. at edinburgh , the . of december , . these foregoing depositions , subscribed by mr. william carstares deponent , and by the lord chancellor , were acknowledged on oath by the said mr. william carstares , to be his true depositions ; and that the subscriptions were his , in presence of us undersubscribers . william carstares . perth cancell . queensberry . athol . david falconer . george mckenzie , his majesties advocat for further probation , adduces the examinations of mr , shepard , taken before sir leolin jenkins secretary of state for england , with the information or deposition of mr. zachary bourn , relating to the plot , sign'd by him and secretary jenkins , of which depositions the tenors follow . the examination of thomas shepard of london merchant , taken upon oath before the right honourable sir leolin jenkins knight , his majesties paincipal secretary of state , the . day of december . . the deponent saith , that ferguson told him on , or about the moneth of april last , that an insurrection was intended both in england and in scotland , and that for the settling that affair betwixt the two nations , mr. baillie , mr. monro , sir john cochran , sir hugh and sir george campbels , with some others ( whose names this deponent heard not ) were come to london . that the deponent had some acquaintance with mr. baillie , mr. monro , and sir john cochran , and none at all with sir hugh and sir george campbels ; that mr. baillie told the deponent , that the earl of argile demanded thirty thousand pounds of the english to capacitat him to begin the business effectually in scotland , and that he ( the said baillie likewise told the deponent , that having concerted things with the lord russel and others , he the said baillie found an impossibility of raising that sum ; after which the said baillie had acquainted the deponent , that they were certainly promised ten thousand pounds , which sum was agreed to be payed into the deponents hands , in order to be remitted into holland , for the providing of arms ; and that the said baillie told the deponent at divers times , that the said sum , or at least one half of it would be payed such a day , and such a day ; and sometimes asked the deponent , if he had received any part of the said money , to which the deponent replyed that he had not , and that he the deponent scarce thought any would be payed . and the deponent also saith , that having had some little conversation with sir john cochran , he remembers well , that both of them did sometimes lament the delays in not paying in the money , and said , that although the said ten thousand pounds were pay'd in , they , the said sir john cochran and mr. monro , fear ▪ d it would be too little ; and this deponent further sayeth not , as to any new matter . ▪ but the deponent being asked , to explain what he thought was meant by the words above-written , viz. to capacitat him ( the earl of argile ) to begin the business , he , this deponent sayeth , that he did understand by the word business , an insurrection in scotland . sic subscribitur , thomas shepard . jurat coram . l. jenkins . the information of zachary bourn of london , brewer , taken upon oath , the tenth day of december . before the right honourable mr. secretary jenkins . the informant deposeth , and sayeth , that mr. baillie set up one night , if not two , with mr. ferguson , and went several times in the evening with him to the duke of monmouth , and the chief mannagers of the conspiracy ; that ferguson told the deponent , that he the said baillie was the chief man for the scots , next to the lord argile ; that the said baillie did sit up the greatest part of one night , with the said ferguson ; at which time this deponent believeth they were busie in preparing the intended declaration , which the deponent has the more reason to believe , in as much as the said ferguson did go about to show him the deponent , such a paper , wherein the said ferguson was hindered by the coming up stairs of some person , to speak with the said ferguson , that the said ferguson told the deponent , that the main business of the said baillie , in meeting the saids conspirators , was in order to get from them the ten thousand pounds , promised for the buying of arms , for the insurrection intended in scotland . that the deponent saw mr. william carstares come often to the lodgings of the said ferguson ; but that the said ferguson never told the deponent of any discourse held by him with the said carstares : and further this deponent saith not ▪ sic subscribitur , zac. bourn . jurat coram . l. jenkins . his majesties advocate likewise produced several warrands , and papers to prove , that those depositions are sign'd by sir leolin jenkins . his majesties advocate also produced the books of adjournal , bearing mr. william veitch to be a forefault traitor , and the act of parliament whereby the forefaulture is ratified , his majesties advocat's speech to the inquest . my lords and gentlemen , you have now a conspiracy against his mejesties sacred person , and royal government , so fully discover'd , that they must want reason as well as loyalty , who do not believe the discovery ; and they must be enemies to sincerity , as well as to the king , who do not acknowledge it . beside , that the councils of all the three nations , thought the proof sufficient , for indicting a general thanksgiving through all these nations ; and that the judges of england thought the same strong enough to infer forefaulture of life and estate , against some of all ranks there ; you have a discovery made here from the late e. of argiles own letters , and the confession of his own emissaries , the two surest proofs that law ever invented , or the nature of humane affairs can allow ; and i am this day to add to all this , a new sort of proofs in the process that i now lead against this pannal , from the confessions of noblemen and gentlemen , who have been engaged in this wicked conspiracy ; and who from a sense of their guilt , are content freely to depose against their nearest relation , and their most intimate friend , in which having thus cleared to you , that there was really such a conspiracy , i shall , in the next place , proceed to prove this pannals accession to it . it cannot be imagined , that we would willingly involve our countrey men in it , without a conviction stronger then our kindness to scotland ; nor did his majesties servants accuse this pannal , without the opinion of the ablest lawyers of the kingdom , who did , with them concur , to think that there was not the least occasion of doubting left , to the most indifferent inqueist of his guilt , after they had seriously , and with reflection , read over , and pondered the probation now laid before you . the person accused of accession to this cryme is the ring-leader of all those , who in this kingdom concurr'd with the english conspirators , as you may see by the testimonies of all who have deposed ; and it was indeed fit and just to begin with the most guilty , so that if he be not convicted , there should no man be punished for this conspiracie ; all the noise we have heard of it , is but a cheat , the kings judges have been murderers , all the witnesses have been knaves , and such as dyed for it have been martyrs . the accession charged on the pannal , is not an accidental escape , nor is it proved by witnesses , who can be suspected of unkindnes to his person , or his cause , for it is a long tract of a continued design , gone about with the greatest deliberation and concern imaginable , and proved by his nearest relations , and persons so deeply engadged in that cause , ( for which he suffers , ) that they were content with him to venture their lives and fortunes in that quarrel . he is not accused of a crime that can amount only to a single murder , though that be a dreadful cryme , but a rebellion , which was to draw upon us a civil war , that murder of murders , in which hundreths of thousands were to fall ; and to crown all , he was to 〈◊〉 , and to be the 〈…〉 of a rebellion , in which one of the first steps was to kill his sacred majestie , and his royal brother ; and one of the chief witnesses which i have led against him , is bourn , which bourn confessed that he was to kill the king , and who confesses the pannal sat up several nights with ferguson , the other contriver of the kings murder , and so familiar was he with him , that bourn depons , that the said pannal had been with ferguson , at the drawing of the manifesto , whereby he was not only to be an actor , but to be the justifier of that horrid villanie : and therefore bourns depons , that ferguson , ( the best judge in that case ) looked upon him as the chief man , next to argyle ; but because no man is presumed to go to such a hight , without previous inclination and motives , i shall to convince you , that this gentleman was very capable of all that was lybelled against him , remember you , that he is nephew , and son in law to the late waristoun , bred up in his family and under his tutory ; about the time of this plot it was undenyably known , and is now sufficiently proved , by two present witnesses , the earl of tarras and commissar monro , that he thought himself desperat , knowing himself to be guilty of treason by blackwoods case ; and as it 's presumable , that a man that 's guilty of one point of treason , will commit another ; so when a man is desperat as to his life and fortune , he is capable of any thing ; he was likewise animated to commit this cryme , by the intelligence he had that there was a plot in england , carryed on by men of so great parts , fortune and influence , and by the too probable hopes , that they would get all the western shires to joyn with them here , because of the common guilt , in which they had engadged themselves , by their late extravagances , they made an account of an assistance of twenty thousand men ; and by philiphaughs deposition , that these gentlemen expected the concurse of the southern-shires ; and thus , i am to prove to you a cryme , which is in it self , so probable and liklie , that it should need little probation , tho i have adduced for your conviction sufficient evidences , albeit the cryme were in it self very unliklie . the crymes which i hope i have proved , are , that jerviswood the pannal transacted for money to the late earl of argyl , a declared traitor . . that he designed to raise a rebellion . . that he intercommuned with the earl of argyl and mr. veitch declared traitors . . that he was present , where it was treated either that argyle should have money from the english and assistance from scotland , or that a rebellion should be raised , and that he did not reveal the samine ; and all these being sound relevant separation it is sufficient for me to have proved any one of them . and if a gentleman was lately sound guilty of high-treason , by the opinion of all the lords of session , for not revealing , that sir john cochran sought fifty pound sterling from him , though he refused the same , and tho he believed , it was sought for a charitable subsistance to , preserve him from starving ; what deserves this pannal , who sought thirty thousand pound sterling , to buy him arms , to invade his native countrey ? that jerviswood was designing to carry on a rebellion , or at least was accessory , or ( as our law terms it ) was art and part thereof , is clearly prov'd ; but that in this occult and hidden crime , which uses not to be prov'd by clear witnesses ; i may lead you thorow all the steps of the probation , which like the links of a chain , hang upon one another . you will be pleased to consider , that . it is proved that he desired a blind commission to go to england , not to manage the assairs of the carolina company , as he confess'd , but to push the people of england to do something for themselves , because they did only talk and not do ; and what he would have them to do , appears too clearly , because he tells the earl of tarras it was probable , that if the king were briskly put to it by the parliament of england , he would consent to exclude the duke from the succession : here is not only a treasonable design , ( though a design be sufficient in treason ) but here are express acts of treason proved , viz. the treating with the earl of tarras upon this design , the settling a correspondence with him for the prosecution of it , and the writing letters from london to him concerning it , and the sending down mr. martin to compleat it by a general rising ; as he design'd to push on the english , so he prosecutes closely 〈◊〉 design upon all occasions . on the road he complains cunningly and bitterly , that our lives , laws and liberties , and the protestant religion were in danger , the stile and method of all such as design to rebel ; after he arrives at london , he engages the conspirators there to assist the late earl of argile , a declar'd traitor , with money to buy arms ; this was indeed to push the english to do the most dangerous things by the most dangerous man , and in the most dangerous methods . he enters also in a strict correspondence with ferguson the contriver , with shepard the thesaurer , and carstares the chaplain of the conspiracy . alexander monro another present witness , proves that he argued with him , that it was necessary to give argile money expressly for carrying on the rebellion , and that they did meet at jerviswoods chamber where this was spoke of , and from which mr. robert martin was sent to their friends in scotland to know what they would do ; and though the silly caution was , that they sent him to prevent their rising , yet a man must renounce common sense , not to see that the design was to incite them to rebellion , and to prevent only their doing any thing in this rebellious design , by which the , might lose themselves in a too early and abortive insurrection here , till things were ready in england . for , . this commission was given him in a place , and by a company who had been themselves treating immediatly before of sending money to the late e. of argile to buy arms , and certainly those arms were to be bought for men , and not for a magazine . . they were treating how many men could be raised in scotland . . carstares deposition bears , that martin was sent to hinder rash resolutions , till they saw how matters went in england , and the return to their embassy bore , that it would not be an easie matter to get the gentry of scotland to concur ; but afterwards better hopes of their rising was given , which could not have been , if the true commission had not been to raise scotland . . that sir john cochran made a speech to that purpose , is expressly prov'd , and that jerviswood spoke to the same purpose , is prov'd by a necessary consequence ; for since it 's prov'd that he spoke , and that he did not speak against it , it must necessarily follow that he spoke for it , though the witness is so cautious , that he cannot condescend upon the words now after so long a time ; and it is against sense to think , that jerviswood who in privat press'd the same so much upon commissar monro , and who was the deacon-conveener here , and who , as mr. martin their envoy declared , was the person who was to be sent for the arms , should not himself have been the most forward man in that design , but above all exitus acta probat , this commissioner , ( who being a meer servant , durst not have proposed any thing from himself , being a mean person , and being one , who , as the earl of tarras deposes , would say nothing , but what was in his paper : ) does expresly declare , that he came from jerviswood and others ; and in the meeting with him , a rebellion is actually formed , and it is resolved , they should seize the king's officers of state , garisons , and forces , and that they should joyn with the late e. of argyle , and put their own forces in a condition to joyn with these forces that were to come from england , and they gave a sign , and a word , which uses only to be done in actual war ; so here is treason clearly prov'd , by two present witnesses , from the first design to it's last perfection . nor can it be objected , that they are not concurring witnesses , but testes singulares upon separat acts , for in reiterable crimes , witnesses deposing upon different acts ; do prove if the deeds tend to the same end ; as for instance , if one witnes should depose , that they saw a traitor sit in a council of war , in one place , and in another place , they saw him in arms , or that one saw him assist at a proclamation in one place , and saw him in arms in another ; or that one saw him writ a treasonable paper , and another saw him use it ; these witnesses are still considered as contestes , or concurring witnesses , and ten or twelve inqueists have so found , and upon their verdict , rebells have been lately hang'd . the learn'd judges of england being all met together did expresly find , that one witnes proving , that a. b. said , that he was going to buy a knife to kill the king , and another deposing , that he saw him buy a knife , without telling for what , that these two witnesses were contestes , and prov'd sufficiently the cryme of treason , yet there the one witnes , prov'd only a remote design , and the other an act , which was indifferent of it's own nature , and became only treasonable by the connexion ; but no witnesses ever deposed upon things so coherent , and so connected together , as these do , for they depose still upon the same person , carrying on the same design of a rebellion ; as to which , in one place , he is exciting his own nephew , and telling him his resolutions , and settling a correspondence with him , at another time , he presses commissar monro to the same rebellion . at a third , he holds a meeting at his own chamber , and speaks concerning it , and from that meeting , he sends a trusty , who formes the rebellion . besides all this , tho two witnesses be sufficient , i have adduced mr. william carstares chief conspirator , and who choos'd rather to suffer violent torture , than to disclose it , he likewise deposes upon all these steps , and connects them together , and this his deposition is twice reiterated , upon oath , after much premeditation . and i likewise adduce two depositions taken upon oath , by sir leolin jenkins , who was impower'd by the law of england , and at the command of the king , and the council of england , upon a letter from his majesties officers of state here , in which deposition , shepard , one of the witnesses , deposes , that baillie came frequently to him , and desired him to advance the money , and lamented the delays , and that there was so little to be advanced ; and who should be better believed then one who was his own trustie , and a person who was able to advance so great a sum ; bourn , another of the witnesses , deposes , that ferguson told him , that the pannal spoke frequently to him concerning the same money , and that he sat up several nights with ferguson upon the said conspiracy ; and who should be better believed then fergusons confident , and one who was so far trusted in the whole affair , that he was to take away that sacred life , which heaven has preserv'd by so many miracles . against these three depositions , you have heard it objected , that non testimonia sed testes probant , especially by our law , in which , by an express act of parliament , no probation is to be led , but in presence of the assise and pannal . to which it is answered , that these depositions are not meer testimonies ; for i call a testimony , a voluntar declaration , emitted without an oath , and a judge ; but these depositions are taken under the awe of an oath , and by the direction of a judge . . shepard was confronted with the pannal himself , and he had nothing to say against him ; whereas the great thing that can be objected against testimonies ( and by our statute especially ) is that if the party who emits the testimony had been confronted with the pannal ; the impression of seeing a person that was to die , by his deposition , would have made him afraid to depose laxly ; and the pannal likewise might , by proposing interrogators and questions , have cleared himself , and satisfi'd the judges in many things depos'd against him : but so it is that mr. shepard having been confronted with the pannal , before the king himself , who is as far above other judges , in his reason and justice , as he is in his power and authority ; he deposes that the pannal was the chief mannager of this conspiracy , next to argile , and that he was so passionate to have this money to buy arms , that he lamented the delays ; and can it be imagined that mr. shepard whom he trusted with his life and his fourtune , and whom all their party trusted with their cash , would have depos'd any thing against him that was not true , especially when he knew that what he was to depose , was to take away his life and his fortune ; or that if the pannal had been innocent , he would not when he was confronted with mr. shepard , before the king himself , have roar'd against mr. shepard , if he had not been conscious to his own guilt . there is a surprise in innocence , which makes the innocent exclaim , and it inspires men with a courage , which enables them to confound those who depose falsly against them ; and in what occasion could either of these have appear'd , more than in this , wherein this gentleman was charg'd to have conspir'd with the greatest of rascals , against the best of princes ; and that too in presence of the prince himself , against whom he had conspir'd ; but guilt stupifies indeed , and it did never more than in this gentlemans case , whose silence was a more convincing witness than mr. shepard could be . mr. carstares likewise knew when he was to depone , that his deposition was to be used against jerviswood , and he stood more in awe of his love to his friend , than of the fear of the torture , and hazarded rather to die for jerviswood , than that jerviswood should die by him : how can it then be imagin'd , that if this man had seen jerviswood in his tryal , it would have altered his deposition ; or that this kindness , which we all admir'd in him would have suffer'd him to forget any thing in his deposition , which might have been advantageous in the least to his friend : and they understand ill this hight of friendship , who think that it would not have been more nice and careful , than any advocate could have been : and if castares had forgot at one time , would he not have supplyed it at another ; but especially at this last time , when he knew his friend was already brought upon his tryal : and that this renew'd testimony was yet a further confirmation of what was said against him ; and albeit the kings servants were forced to engage , that carstares himself should not be made use of as a witness against jerviswood ; yet i think this kind scrupulosity in carstares for jerviswood , should convince you more than twenty suspect , nay than even indifferent witnesses ; nor can it be imagined , that the one of these witnesses ; would not have been as much afraid of god , and his oath at london , as at edinburgh ; and the other in the council chamber in the forenoon , as in the justice-court in the afternoon . . the statute founded on , does not discharge the producing of testimonies otherways than after the jury is incloss'd ; for then indeed they might be dangerous , because the party could not object against them : but since the statute only discharges to produce writ , or witnesses , after the jury is inclos'd ; it seems clearly to insinuat , that they ought to prove when they are produc'd in presence of the party himself , as now they are . and though the civil law did not allow their judges to believe testimonies , because they were confin'd to observe strict law ; yet it does not from that follow ; that our juries , whom the law allows to be a law to themselves , and to be confin'd by no rule , but their conscience , may not trust intirely to the depositions of witnesses , though not taken before themselves , when they know that the witnesses , by whom , and the judges , before whom these depositions were emited , are persons beyond all suspition , as in our case . but yet for all this , i produce these testimonies , as adminicles here only to connect the depositions of the present witnesses , and not to be equivalent to witnesses in this legal process ; albeit , as to ▪ the conviction of mankind , they are stronger than any ordinary witnesses . when you , my lords and gentlemen , remember that it is not the revenge of a privat party , that accuses in this case ; and that even in privat crimes , such as forgery , or the murder of children , &c. many juries here have proceeded upon meer presumptions , and that even solomon himself ▪ founded his illustrious decision , approv'd by god almighty , upon the presum'd assertion of a mother ; i hope ye will think two friends deposing , as present witnesses , adminiculated and connected by the depositions of others , though absent ; should beget in you an intire belief , especially against a pannal , who has been always known to incline this way , and who , though he was desired in the tolbooth to vindicate himself from those crimes , would not say any thing in his own defence , and though he offers to clear himself of his accession to the kings murder , yet sayes nothing to clear himself from the conspiracy entered into with the late earl of argile , for invading his native countrey , which is all that i here charge upon him , and which he inclines to justifie , as a necessary mean for redressing grievances ; i must therefore remember you , that an inquest of very worthy gentlemen did find rathillet guilty , tho there was but one witness led against him , because when he was put to it , he did not deny his accession : and two rogues were found guilty in the late circuit at glascow , for having murdered a gentleman of the guard , though no man saw them kill him ; but the murderers having been pursued , they run to the place out of which the pannals then accused were taken , none having seen the face of the runaweys ; and the pannals being accus'd : and press'd to deny the accession , shun'd to disown the guilt , but desired it might be proved against them . this may convince you that there are proofs which are stronger then witnesses ; and i am sure that there were never more proving witnesses then in this case , nor were the depositions of witnesses ever more strongly adminiculated . remember the danger likewise of emboldening conspiracies against the kings sacred life , and of encouraging a civil war , wherein your selves and your posterity may bleed , by making the least difficulty to find a man guilty by the strongest proofs that ever were adduced in so latent a crime as a conspiracy is . and i do justly conclude , that whoever denys that a conspiracy can be thus prov'd , does let all the world see that he inclines that conspiracies should be encouraged and allow'd . our age is so far from needing such encouragements , that on the other hand in this , as in all other crimes , because the guilt grows frequent and dangerous , the probation should therefore be made the more easie , tho in this case the king needs as little desire your favour , as fear your justice . and i have insisted so much upon this probation , rather to convince the world of the conspiracy , than you that this conspirator is guilty . thereafter the lords ordained the assize to inclose , and return their verdict to morrow by nine a clock in the morning . edinburgh , december . . the said day , the persons who past upon the assie of mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , return'd their verdict in presence of the saids lords ; whereof the tenor follows . the assize , all in one voice , finds the crimes of art and part in the conspiracy , and plot libelled ; and of concealing , and not revealing the same , clearly proven against mr. robert baillie the pannal , in respect of the depositions of witnesses and adminicles adduced . sic subscribitur , strathmore chancellor . after opening and reading of the which verdict of assyze ▪ the lords , justice general , justice clerk , and commissioners of justiciary ▪ therefore , by the mouth of james johnstoun dempster of court , decerned and adjudged the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood to be taken to the mercat cross of edinburgh , this twentie fourth day of december instant , betwixt two and four a clock in the afternoon , and there to be hanged on a gibbet till he be dead , and his head to be cut off , and his body to be quartered in four , and his head to be assixt on the nether-bow of edinburgh , and one of his quarters to be assixt on the tolbooth of jedburgh , another on the tolbooth of lanerk , a third on the tolbooth of air , and a fourth on the tolbooth of glasgow ; and ordains his name , fame , memory , and honours to be extinct , his blood to be tainted , and his arms to be riven forth , and delate out of the books of arms , so that his posterity may never have place , nor be able hereafter to bruik , or joyse any honours , offices , titles or dignities , within this realm in time coming ; and to have forfaulted , ammitted and tint all and sundry his lands , heritages , tacks , steadings , rooms , possessions , goods and gear whatsoever , pertaining to him , to our soveraign lords use , to remain perpetually with his highness , in property , which was pronunced for doom . sic subscribitur . linlithgow . james foulis , j. lockhart , david balfour , roger hog , al. seton , p. lyon. extracted forth of the books of adjournal , by me mr. thomas gordon , clerk to the justice court , sic subscribitur . tho. gordon . in pursuance of which sentence , his majesties heraulds , and pursevants , with their coats display'd ( after sound of trumpets , ) did publickly , in face of the court ( conform to the custom , in the sentences of treason ) in his majesties name and authority , cancel , tear and destroy the said mr. robert baillie his arms , threw them in his face , trampl'd them under foot ; and ordain'd his arms to be expunged out of the books of herauldry , his posterity to be ignoble , and never to injoy honour and dignity in time coming : and thereafter went to the mercat-cross of edinburgh , and solemnly tore and cancelled the said mr. robert baillie his arms , and affixed the famine on the said mercat-cross reversed , with this inscription ; the arms of mr. robert baillie late of jerviswood traitor . finis notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e nota , that the earl of tarras depon'd nothing against jerviswood but what the other two witnesses depon'd against himself before the tryal , and upon which thereafter they being renew'd , the earl was forfaulted ; so that there could be no ground of suspicion from , his circumstances . a true and plain account of the discoveries made in scotland, of the late conspiracies against his majesty and the government extracted from the proofs lying in the records of his majesties privy council, and the high justice court of the nation : together with an authentick extract of the criminal process and sentence against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood / extracted by command of his majesties most honourable privy council of scotland ... mackenzie, george, sir, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing m estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true and plain account of the discoveries made in scotland, of the late conspiracies against his majesty and the government extracted from the proofs lying in the records of his majesties privy council, and the high justice court of the nation : together with an authentick extract of the criminal process and sentence against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood / extracted by command of his majesties most honourable privy council of scotland ... mackenzie, george, sir, - . baillie, robert, d. . england and wales. privy council. [ ], p. by thomas newcomb, for susanna forrester ..., reprinted at london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. ascribed to sir george mackenzie. cf. nuc pre- . "the tryal and process of high-treason and doom of forfaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor" has special t.p. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project 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the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (treason) -- scotland -- early works to . scotland -- history -- - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true and plain account of the discoveries made in scotland , of the late conspiracies against his majesty and the government . extracted from the proofs lying in the records of his majesties privy council , and the high justice court of the nation . together with an authentick extract of the criminal process and sentence against mr. robert baillie of ierviswood . extracted by command of his majesties most honourable privy council of scotland ; and published by his majesties command . reprinted at london , by thomas newcomb , for susanna forrester in kings-street westminster . . a true and plain account of the discoveries made in scotland , of the late conspiracies against his majesty , and the government . the king's majestie having , on certain great considerations , indicted a parliament , to hold at edinburgh , of iuly . did render that meeting the more illustrious , by nominating his royal brother commissioner , to represent his majesty in it . the fanatical party , who let no occasion slip , to promove their designs , and to disturb the settled government , did at this time , use all their endeavours , to have as many of those infected with their principles , elected commissioners for the parliament , as the little power and interest they had in the nation could procure , and even where they could not hope to succeed , they had the insolence to attempt , thereby pursuing closly what they constantly design , that is , pertinaciously to disturb , where they cannot alter , and to found a reputation to their party , by much noise , though to little purpose . at the time of meeting of the parliament , their first consult was to strick at the head , and by invading the right of the monarchy , to pull it down so far , as to have the king , in the person of his commissioner , subjected to the same rules and inquisitions , with other subordinat members . the king by his laws , having prescribed rules to those who serve him in that great court , and council : they , according to the laws of their leagues and covenants , propose that the parliament should prescribe the same to the king , consonant enough to their beloved design of co ordination in power . had this succeeded , they with this one blow , had overthrown the parliament , by laying the commissioner aside : but as men oft-times design bold treasons with abundance of resolution , yet are frighted from the execution , by the danger , as well as ugliness of the crime , so this insolent resolution dar'd not shew its face , being strangl'd by their own fears . and seeing they could not dissolve the parliament , they , in the next place , resolv'd to disappoint the design of it ; and indeed , if the maintaining of an unjust interest could warrand the action , they had reason so to do : for the fanatical-party having , by their own great industry , and the supine negligent● ( to say no worse ) of these trusted by the king , to suppress them , not only kept up , but encreased their pernicious brood ; so that they began to appear formidable , both to the king and the countrey : and one of their great hopes , whereby their party increased , being founded on the short continuance of the supply granted by the nation , for maintaining the forces , they could little doubt , but that all loyal subjects would not only continue , but also further augment them , rather then leave the seditious , in a capacity to disturb the government . therefore , as a necessary expedient to preserve fanaticism , they resolved by all possible means , to hinder any continuation of the supplie . but they soon found , that the votes of their party had neither number nor weight . these well-natur'd subjects , finding that they could not disappoint , thought it convenient to perplex ; and since they could not do what they would , they resolv'd to do all they could . and albeit the late earl of argile , and some others , who were under too great obligations to the king's majesty , and his royal-highness , to appear on the side of their friends in the good old cause ; whilst the opposition was so bare-fac'd , and the hope of success so little . yet lest their little flock should be discouraged , they began then to animat them the more close , and ( as they thought ) undiscern'd methods . and now the cause being in an apparent decay , they labour'd to refresh it , with its first milk , the pretence of religion . wherefore a new security for religion was proposed ; and albeit our laws had formerly provided , what was necessary for this ; yet it could not be expected that those , who aimed at debate for religion , should rest-satisfied with what settled it . so the doctrine of the church , the canons of councils , and the laws of the kingdom being all lookt upon as nothing : argyle , sir iohn cochran , salton , the earl of tarras , philiphaugh , stairs , gallowsheils , and others of that crew , would needs provide a greater security than these afforded ; and indeed it was congruous for those who were tainted with new doctrines , to desire new sanctions : for this end they pressed a committee , for drawing an act to secure the protestant religion , which was no sooner proposed then granted ; accordingly a committee was appointed , consisting for the most part of west-countrey men , who upon short deliberation prepared a long act , which at its first appearance in the articles , was soon discerned to be an invasion upon the prerogative , under the name of a defence for religion , and not to have many more lines than incroatchments upon the royal right : whereupon it was rejected ; and in place of it a general and plain ratification of all the former good laws , which had past for security of the protestant religion , was drawn , approven , and acquiesced in , by the parliament . but fanaticks are not of a temper to give over , for notwithstanding of this good law , murmurings were heard , clamors were raised , and open protestations were made for f●rther security in religion . wherefore a new committee was appointed , for preparing an act to be drawn from the proposals for that end . the party which clamored for the protestant religion ( but in effect intending good offices to the fanatical party ) did seek after what conduc'd to their by-ends , which as they were easily discovered , were as soon rejected : argyle , sir iohn cochran , the earl of tarras , stairs , philiphaugh , gallowshiels , and their adherents fall at last on an expedient , as they thought insuperable by the kings servants , and which would force them on the dilemma of opposing religion , or the soveraignity . in the first year and parliament of king iames the sixth , when the differences betwixt queen mary and many of the nobility were in their greatest hight , and she forc'd to resign her government , being a prisoner ; there were several acts past in that , and some subsequent parliaments , which incroached on the prerogatives of the crown , the king being then an infant ; and amongst others , that wherein the confession of faith was insert , had in it several clauses altogether extrinsick to a confession of faith , for which that act by its title was chiefly design'd : and tho these acts and clauses which derogated from the rights of the crown , were often rescinded , or corrected , and the prerogative fully vindicated in many succeeding parliaments : yet these who intended more disturbance to the state , nor security for religion , took occasion after their other proposals were rejected , to offer the renewing of the said act of the first parliament of king iames the sixth , as an expedient for securing the protestant religion , as it is there profess'd ; concluding , that if that act were renewed , it would derogate from the pesterior laws , which corrected what related to the prerogative ; or if the renewing of it were refus'd , they might take occasion from that refusal , to impose on the people , that the kings commissioner and the parliament design'd not the security of the protestant religion : but the parliament defeated both these projects , by taking into the test not that act , but the protestant religion contained in it ; for the parliament was far from reviving , much less for inserting in the test any part of that act , which did incroach on the royal prerogative , the episcopal government , and policy , or whatever was extrinsick , or contradictory to the protestant religion contained in it . this , as all other disappointments , incited rage in those who resolved not to be satisfied ; and those pretended patrons of the protestant religion , will overturn it , and tear the securest test that could be made for it , rather then permit , that monarchy and it should stand together ; and finding that this test , as it did absolutely secure the protestant religion , so in just consequence thereof , it knocked fanaticism on the head : therefore to work they fall against it , with all the force of their imaginations ; and none appeared more violent then those who formally with undiscreet violence had press'd it , whilst they hop'd to invenom it , with a mixture of the poison of the covenant . but 'mongst them all , none acted with more industry , or more malice , then the late earl of argile , who being by education and choice sufficiently fanatical , yet having dissembled it for a while , thereby to keep himself in the government , and to draw it to a concurrence in his particular designs , and oppressions , whereby he kept a great estate , defrauding all creditors , and bringing many families to beggary ; he found this parliament pry a little into these mysteries , for they having made some motion in doing right to the earls of errol , marischal and strathmore , whose estates were exposed for argiles debt , whilst he enjoy'd his own estate , without owning a relief to them : therefore , albeit in the beginning of the parliament , he professed a fervour for carrying on of the king's service , yet ( his zeal to the old cause , being prick'd on by this invasion of his new right ) in the course of it , none was so active , or used more indirect ways to disappoint it . but being over-power'd by the loyal members , who were ten to one of the dis-affected ; albeit he , and other sticklers , were allowed to word the test at their pleasure , and did accordingly add to it all those clauses which since hath given pretences of scruple to many who have refused it ; yet no sooner was the session of parliament adjourned ; but the said late argile industriously , first at edinburgh , and afterward in traversing several shires , did insinuate all the prejudices he could devise against the tenor of the test : thereby endeavouring ( and not without some success ) to increase the dissatisfied party , and fit the nation the more for cumbustion : so passing home to the shires of argile , and tarhet , he fix'd the clergy and laity thereof in these seditious sentiments . thereafter he returns to edinburgh , giving it out openly , that he would not take the test ; but to make his refusal the more malicious , proposes to his royal highness , and those of the government , that he might be allowed to take it with his own explanation , which exposition he put in writ , and dispersed it ; being of that tenor and contryvance , as to cast all the obligations therein loose , making his fancy the rule of his religion , and his own loyalty the standard of his allegeance , according to which he was only to ty himself . his majesties commissioner , and the council , being well informed of his seditious carriage , both in city , and countrey , and fully confirmed in their judgments , of his malicious design in this his paraphrase on the test ; and finding that thereby he had not only perverted the sense of his majesties laws , contrary to their true meaning and intention ; but that he had endeavoured to shake the people loose from their allegeance , and make all obligations thereto illusory : and that by these methods , he did with boldness and impudence , found a schism in the church , and faction in the state , publickly owning them in the face of council : on which grounds he was most justly pursued by the kings advocat , before the soveraign justice court , and there by learn'd judges , and a jury , not only of his peers , but many of them his nearest relations ; his accusation was found relevant and proven , and judged a sufficient ground to infer the pains appointed by law for treason . albeit his father had been one of the most obstinate , and most pernicious rebels against the royal family , and that he himself had been educated in these principles , and had entered early into those practices : and albeit it be notourly known , that his private discontents and debates against his father , and the penury to which those had reduced him , were the motives which made him joyn with middleton in the hills , bringing no power with him to that army , and acting as little in it ; but by assuming the honour of what was acted by m●naughton : and that at last he was instrumental to break that party by faction ; which though this was clearly discerned by middleton at the time , yet he judged fit to dissemble it , both for encouraging the high-landers , and giving reputation to his majesties affairs , upon which account also at argiles , then lord lorn's earnest suit he did give testificates to him of his own wording , which those of undoubted loyalty did not require , and indeed were only useful to such whose actions and principles needed vindication ; yet under pretence of these , together with the great assistance of the duke of lauderdail , having attained to so immense donatives from his majesty both in estate and dignity , it was not easie to believe , he should retain that hereditary malignity , at least to such a degree as to become an open rebel ; but the ethiopian cannot change his skin ; for albeit the kings majesty , and his royal highness were so far from any resolution of taking his life , that he was allowed all freedom in prison , even after he was found guilty ; and that no further prejudice was design'd to him , than to take from him those jurisdictions and superiorities , which he and his predecessors had surreptitiously acquired ; and were used by him and them to destroy many honest and considerable familes , sometimes by stretches of law , and at other times by violence and force , but always under shelter and pretence of these jurisdictions : and that some reparation might have been made to his just creditors , and some donatives to those , whom he and his father had formerly rob'd and destroy'd , for their fidelity and loyalty to their king : and the super-plus ( if any were ) was intended for his lady and children ; which was the hight of clemency , there being indeed more debt upon the estate then the whole of its value : yet being more conscious of his own guilt then his prince did apprehend , he dar'd not rely upon that clemency , whereof he had tasted so plentifully ; but abusing the favour of his open imprisonment , for verifying of his other crimes , he added this one , of breaking the prison , and flying from the laws . no king but ours could after all this think of favouring his family , but his majesty will not only favour but restore , and before it was known that the late argile had more debt then estate , in a royal largese , he gifts more to his children by thrice then their father could lawfully give them , had he never been forsault . could it have been thought that any christian , or gentleman , could have been guilty of ungratitude to so benign and bountiful a prince ; and yet that the late earl of argile , did after the receiving so many favours , and the profession and boasting of so much loyalty ; not only enter in a horrid conspiracy for rising in arms , but gave at least courage by his bold undertakings to those who conspir'd the murther of his sacred majesty , and his royal highness ; and this conspiracy does demonstrate what was his meaning in that paraphrase upon the test , which fools and knaves have justified as very loyal and orthodox . but with what forwardness argile and others did enter into a conspiracy for overturning the monarchical government , destroying the sacred person of the king , and of his only brother , and for pulling ruine upon the three kingdoms by a civil war , the evident proofs of unsuspect witnesses , and the concurrence of many authentick papers and documents with these depositions , will not only sufficiently prove , but amount to the quality of a demonstration , all the pieces being considered together ; and with what earnestness he acted , doth evidently appear from these following evidences . for shortly after argiles escape , information was given from the west that he had caused secure the militia arms of argile and tarbet shires , as also a considerable quantity of the kings arms were given to him in trust , besides a little magazine which he had of his own , and some pieces of cannon , and that he had employed some merchants to bring arms from abroad to be landed securely in some of his remote high-land castles . and upon inquiry , one william campbel master of a ship at newport-glasgow was found to be conduc'd for this end , as his deposition taken before some of the officers of state doth clearly evince . edinburgh , the last day of august , . in presence of the lords chancellor , and advocat , william campbel skipper at newport-glasgow , being examined upon oath , depons , that in march last he was fraughted by iohn campbel merchant in glasgow for norway , france , or elsewhere , for three months certain , conform to a charter-party produc'd by him ; and about that same day he having desired to know what could be his prospect of his voyage to norway with so small a ship and loading , he refused to tell him till he were at sea , and being at the back of the lews a day or two after they set off , the said iohn campbel then said , now skipper i will tell you the design of our voyage , which is to go to norway and loaden dails , and out of that to amsterdam and buy arms , and to take in the same to cairnbulg ; and the deponent having asked him what he would do with these arms there , he answered , may not my lord come to his own again , and have use for them ; and the deponent understanding these arms were to be made use of against the king , the deponent answered , that when he was made burgess of dunbartoun there was an oath taken of him to be true to the king , and the present government , as it is established ; and upon the deponents refusal to comply with him in the said voyage , he got the ships company upon his side , who beat and abused the deponent ; and having gone from that to norway , he behoved to suffer all the voyage ; there being no justice in these remote places where he came to , from which , being upon their voyage to holland , the ship was by providence cast away , for which they blam'd the deponent , as having done the same wilfully . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur will. campbell . g. gordon cancell . edinburgh , the of ianuary , . in presence of the secret committee , the said william campbel being re-examined , adheres to his former deposition ; and further declares , that he offered to the then lord chancellor , to apprehend the said iohn campbel ; but the chancellor made no answer to him , but whispered the general in the ear ; and he heard afterwards that the said campbel had escaped . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur will. campbel . at the same time surmises were heard , from amongst the fanaticks from all parts , of argiles intention to land in the west with arms , and to raise that countrey , and to joyn with the western shires ; and in summer , gordon of earlston being apprehended at newcastle , the papers taken with him , and his own depositions made upon oath in scotland did give good grounds for suspition of some imminent design , which apprehensions were raised by a little accident which happened at the time ; for upon the first noise of the discovery of the conspiracy in england earlston being in prison in edinburgh tolbooth , the keeper came in to visit , him ; who found him asleep ; but he awakening at the time , the keeper told him that now the conspiracy was broke out : how ( says earlston ) is argile then landed ? of which expression the keeper having given notice to some councellers , earlston was examined upon the meaning of the expression , who plainly confess'd , that both in england and holland he had information of argiles buying of arms with intention to land in scotland , and that at the same time he was informed that the english were to rise in several places of england . alexander gordon of earlston his deposition , before a committee of his majesties privy council , and two of the iustices . edinburg , the of september , . sederunt . privy counsellors . the earl of linlithgow . lord livingston . lord president of the session . lord collington . lord castlehill . justices . lord pitmedden . lord harcarss . the earl of linlithgow elected praeses . alexander gordon being further interrogate upon the interrogators given in anent the conspiracy in england , declares , that the first time he heard of any design of rising in arms , was at the time when the competition was anent the sheriffs at midsummer was a year , and then he heard the duke of monmonth was to head the rebels , and this he had from iohn nisbet and one mr. murray a scots man then at london , and declares that in ianuary last the declarant being in holland , he heard by general report that the late earl of argile was to raise some thousands of high-landers to assist the rebels in england by making a diversion , and was to get a sum of money for that effect , and that in march last he having received a letter in holland from iohn nisbet then in london , he came over to london , where he met with the said nisbet and murray , who told the declarant , they design'd to rise presently in england , and to rendezvous in six or seven places at one time , particularly at coventry and london , and that they computed several thousands in york-shire who were to joyn with them ; that murray desired the declarant to go along with him to meet with the late lords russel and gray , and the lord wharton , ( but of wharton they said they were not very sure , being a fearful man ) and with mr. ferguson , and spoke of several old officers of cromwels that were to be there , but the declarant not being for the present rising , shunned to meet with these persons , or any of them ; and both nisbet and murray told the declarant , that sir iohn cochran was with them , and heard from these two persons , that both the cessnocks were concerned in that business : as to the letter written by io. n. of the of march , and directed for the declarant at rotterdam , declares that iohn nisbet wrote the said letter , and that under the metaphor of trade throughout the whole letter , is meaned the design of rising in arms and a rebellion , and that by the word dispatching the old rotten stuff , is meaned either the excluding the sectaries from joyning with them , or destroying the government , both civil and ecclesiastial , which last the declarant supposes rather to be the meaning of the words ; and that by the factors are meaned their emissaries for carrying on the rebellion ; and for that strange thing that was to fall out that week or the next , the declarant thinks is meaned the suddain muster of the rebels ; in the close of the letter which says , things are full as high as i tell you , is meaned that the rebellion was instantly to break out ; and having met with iohn nisbet after his coming from holland , the said nisbet explained to him , that the sense of the said letter was , as is above-said . as to the little letter direct to the declarant under the name of pringle , of the second of may ● , declares that the name of the subscriver , which is blotted out , was so blotted before it came to his hand ; but by the contents of it , he knows it is from one robert iohnstoun , a tennent or vassal to the lord gray on the border , and that the traders and trading there spoke of , is the design'd rebellion ; and that the said robert iohnstoun offered to come into scotland with the declarant to have seen some of our dis-affected people here , and to have met with them ; and that a. y. mentioned in the said letter , which the letter says laboured to undervalue the dis-affected party in scotland , which he calls your goods , is the name of andrew young , who stays about newcastle , whom he supposes to be a suspected person , because he was afraid collonel struthers would apprehend him ; and that he supposes the way that that letter came to his hand , was from some person that was at a meeting at tweeds-moor about that time , where were present several of these people that had commission from the several districts , but he himself was not at that meeting . sic subscribitur al. gordon . linlithgow i. p. c. follows the letter direct b● jo. n. which was found upon earlston . london march , . sir , on saturday last i had the occasion of seeing a letter from you , directed for mrs. gaunt , in whose absence mrs. ward had received it , at the reading of which i was not a little troubled , considering my full resolutions signified to you in my last ; for effectuating of which i had spoke for passage , and taken my farewel of mother gaunt , she going into the countrey : and that very week i was set upon by that gentleman with whom i stay , and io. iohnston with some others to stay but a moneth , and if that did not accomplish somewhat in hand to help trading , then i should be no longer detain'd ▪ after i was prevailed to retract so far , i ordered io. who had time at command , to give you an ample account of matters ; and withal io. was desired by our friends from scotland to stand here in my place the like engagements of secrecy , &c. being taken , and thereupon i ordered him to shew you the grounds of my staying , and to desire if you inclined to cross the water to come this way , but since many are the confused , yea troubled thoughts that have possessed me for yielding , concerning which , 〈…〉 my yielding to it , take the subsequent account . in my last , or it precedent to it , i shewed you that trading was very low here , and many breaking , which has made the merchants ( such as they are ) to think that desperate diseases must have desperate cures ; and while they have some stock , it will be better to venture out , than to keep shop and sit still till all be gone , and then they shall not be able to act , but let all go : which resolution i thought a thing not to confide in , seing the most of them are fire-side merchants , and loves not to venture where storms are any thing apparent . but about my departing they shewed the model of affairs in such order , that i see venture they must , and venture they will ; whereupon 〈◊〉 first demanded how our trade would be carried on . answer , they knew well what goods had proven most prejudicial to the trade , and therefore they thought to insist upon negatives , in which whatever i proposed is assented to , as i find ▪ and thus they thought best to still some criticks in the trade : and by this means first to endeavour the dispatching the old rotten stuff before they order what to bring home next . this lookt somewhat strange to me , but when i consider all circumstances , i think they for themselves do best in it : for our merchants i made account only to have had some stock for to set the broken ones up again , and so bid them here fare-wel , and they to try their way , and we ours ▪ since they think fit that some of these whom we have found ( as you will say , when you hear them named ) treacherous dealers in our trade , consulted , and accordingly have done : whereupon i fear , or rather hope that our merchants , tho broke , will rather desire to live a while longer as they are , than joyn with such , &c. to advance the trade ; unless surer grounds of their fidelity be gotten , the● is , or can be expected , and this is the bottom of all my sorrow . but to proceed , i find ( if all hold that is intended ) that they think it is almost at a point to set forward , if they had their factors home , who are gone to try how the countrey will like such goods , as they are for , or against the making sale of . friends , i mean merchants , wrote to me , that after i had spoken to you , possibly you might come this way , the better , thereby to advise them what to do in this case , for i have signified somewhat of it to them , but not so far as this , because i thought to have seen you long ere this time : but i hope you will not misconstruct of my staying , seing in it i designed nothing but advancement of our trade ; but once this week these factors sent for will be here , and then matters will in instanti , either off or on , break , or go thorow . wherefore in reference to friends , i desire you will advise me what to do , if you cannot , or think it not convenient to come here ; if you do , let a letter preceed , and if any strange thing fall out this * week or the next , i will again post it towards you ; i think when this and the next week is gone ( and no news come from you ) that i shall set forward , being still so ready , as that in hours i can bid adieu : the whiggs are very low as well in city as in the suburbs , all meetings being every sunday beset with constables to keep them out , and what they get is stollen , either at evening or morning . this winter many of the great bankers and goldsmiths in lombardstreet are broken and gone ; the ba●tam factory in the indies is taken by the dutch ; confusion , confusion in town and countrey , such as you never saw . mrs. ward and several others desire to be remembred to you . my endeared respects to your self and b. with the young men arrived . this i have writ in short , and in hast , expecting a line with as great hast as you see is needful , for matters are full as high as i tell you . farewel . from your friend and servant , while io. n. postscript . be sure that you direct not for bednal-green ; but for me at mr. mead's in stepney , near london . by this time the conspiracy had broke out in england , and by the papers sent down from the council-board there to the king's officers in scotland ; it was plain , that argile and some other scotsmen had joyned in the conspiracy , as appears by what follows . the abstract of the english depositions . thomas shephard on the . of iune . deposed , that mr. ferguson told him of an general insurrection intended in england and scotland , and that in order to it , sir iohn cochran , mr. baille of ierviswood , mr. monro , sir hugh campbel , and sir george campbel of cesnocks ▪ were come up to treat with the englishmen about it , and that argile had made a proposition , offering for . pound to begin the rebellion in scotland , and to raise a great force ; and ere it were undone , he would begin with . that mr. baillie of ierviswood told him frequently , what steps were made in this , and that the lord russel , &c. had agreed to raise . pound , and that they expected the other . pound to be raised in the city , which failing , the scots-men were to go beyond sea , and that baillie told him , he had advised the earl of argile to accept of this . pound , and that he would remit it into shepards hand , and that mr. charleton had undertaken to raise the pound . the said shepard declares , that he spoke with commissar monro sometimes of this money , and that sir iohn cochran knows of it also , and that monro complained to him that it was too little , and that the delay of paying it would ruin them all : on the . of august , the said shepard declares , that baillie did send carsteres to him , to speak further of these things , and that sir iohn cochran did also regrate the delay in payment of the money , all this the said shepard deposes upon oath ; as is contain'd in his deposition repeated in the following process , page . major holms declares , that he knew from mr. carstares , that some person proposed the raising of . pound to be given to argile for buying of arms , towards his going into scotland , and that . pound was agreed upon , that the duke of monmouth and lord russel , did send him word by carstares , that the money was to be remitted to argile for the said end , and that he the said holmes had writ so much to argile at carstares desire , that argile did send to him many letters in cyphers , and that mr. spence knew how to direct them , that he shew'd some of argiles letters to carstares , and that carstares had often spoke to him , both in the coffee-house and exchange , about argiles going into scotland , to carry on the conspiracy : that he cannot decypher the long letter marked number . nor can he positively say to whom it was directed , but was to have been carried by carstares to ferguson , and by him to the other chief men concerned in the design : that the letters marked number , , is from the countess of argile to her husband , and that the letter marked number , was from argile to his lady , which he knew by a mark on the back ; that spence went by the name of butler , and that the late earl of argiles letters were direct to him by spence , that castares told him , the persons concerned had condescended to give . pounds to argile , that he did so write to argile , and that argile had writ to him , that . pounds was the least he could accept of ; this was given in by holms on the . and . of december , . zechariah bourn on the . of december . before secretary ▪ ienkins deposeth , that mr. baillie did sit up a night or two with mr. ferguson in the deponents house , and that they went several times to the managers of the conspiracy , that ferguson told him their main business with the conspirators was , for getting . pound promis'd to promove the insurrection in scotland , and that baillie was the chief man in it next to argile , that ferguson told him he was to go over with the bills of exchange , and that argile was to command the scots . robert west declares , that ferguson told him that argile would raise a sturdy commotion in scotland , if he had but . pounds ; that cessnock , sir iohn cochran , and other scots , were come up to london , under pretence of treating for carolina ; but in truth to consert matters for a design in scotland . on the th of iuly , . hepburn , a scots vagrant minister declared , that he knew by several hands and persons , that there was a plot , and a rising intended both in scotland and england . all these depositions were taken in england , except earlstons and campbels . after this , one mr. spence , who past under the name of butler , being apprehended there , was sent to scotland . major holms declared , that spence did pass under the name of butler , that he came over from holland with a cargo of argiles books , to disperse them , that he landed at harwich , that he could open argiles letters , and was the person who directed many of argiles letters to him . these proofs , with what occurr'd in england , were sufficient to convince all men of the truth of this conspiracy ; but the perversness of fanatick humors will neither admit of confession nor amendment : for albeit the evidence did fully convince juries and judges : albeit parties confess associations and resolutions to amend the government in their own methods : albeit some acknowledge designs to surprize the kings guards , others to have a parliament called ( whether the king will or will not ) to judge of the government ; and severals with great remorse reveal their own resolutions to murder the sacred person of the king , and his royal brother , and they adhering to this confession ; yet fanaticks will neither believe it , nor allow others to do so , but with unheard of impudence treat so weighty a matter in ridicule , as if they who before had acted all , which now could be feared should be now esteem'd incapable to fall in the like actions , albeit they openly avow the same principles : and bold pamphleters adventure to impose these clear proofs as apert falshoods upon the credulous world , and too many were so ill minded as to believe them . but it 's hoped , that what follows will convince all good men of the truth of what was discovered , and silence all libellers , if darkness must give place to light. at the time of the discovery of the conspiracy in england , several letters , with two keys for opening some mystical words contain'd in them , were found with major holms and others , which letters were known to be argiles hand-writ , by those who were acquainted with it , and afterwards being confess'd by the said holms to be so ; they were considered in england , and some imperfect decyphers made of some of them there : many of which letters , with the keys , and these decyphers were sent down to scotland ; but they appeared so perplex'd , what with cyphers , what with other secret contrivances in writing , as that some who then had the chief management of affairs there , by their supine negligence made but little procedure in discovering them : until a secret committee was appointed by his majesty , who considering that those letters might contain matters of importance ; did apply themselves with earnestness to search into them ; but finding them very intricate , and that the decyphers which were sent from england did open nothing to purpose : they employed one mr. gray of crichie , and gave him for the first experiment , that letter written by the lady of argile to her husband , thereupon to make an essay , which indeed proved more uneasie to unfold , then any of the rest ; yet with much travel , he did very ingeniously discover , first , that every cypher was made up of two figures , next , that every letter of the alphabet was denoted by three different cyphers , which were promiscuously used in one and the same word ; as likewise that there was mute-figures mix'd in with many words , the more to confound the discoverer : so that upon application of the triple alphabet , hereafter set down , to this and several others of the letters ; it was found to open them exactly . of which first discovery mr. gray having given an account to the lords of the secret committee , they found it evident , and appointed the rest of the letters , the english keys , and all other papers relating to that business to be given him for his help in further discoveries ; all which being considered , it was observed , that the middle alphabet of that triple one found out in scotland , was the same with that found out in england , which was made use of by argile himself in his letters ; yet his way of using it in his writings was so perplex'd by the interposition of a great many mute-figures , that tho the key was found out there , yet some of the letters could not be opened : and in full evidence of this first discovery , the said letter is afterward set down , both as it was written in the cypher , and also as it was decyphered , to which is added the triple alphabet , the warrand thereof . the letter from the countess of argile to her husband . marked number . , the . . i came here on tuesday , where i found ● , and the , , of the all the came to see , and and ● came with came by an with all and , i never saw so for . we hear of a great circuit court hath been at stirlin , there were three shires met there or . and m. of m. and the kings troop , and e. b. came with the herotors of fife , and his troop . m. of m. went to glasgow , but some of his troop is at stirlin , and there were some of them sent to to edinburgh for an prisoner they say they call smith ; and friday last the . of iune , of the kings troop came with that smith the length of an place they call inch-belly-bridge as they go to glasgow ; there is they say a moss , and near it a house and a barn ; and as they came near the barn armed men fired at the gentlemen of the guard , and shot dead one mr. murray , he had one shot in his forehead , in his body , and one in his shoulder ; and an other of the gentlemen called iohn bannatine was shot thorow the arm and side , his arm broken to splinders , that he is dead before this time ; the prisoner when he saw them , lighted off his horse , and run to them , and got an long gun from his fellows and ran into the moss , the gentlemen pursued , but got none of them taken , but many is in pursuit of them . it 's a horrid way for any that bears the name of christians to associat persons to murder on the high-ways : there is an story going here that there was a ship put in to newcastle which had some box from rebellious people in holland , and when they came to land , a waiter came to search the ship , and the box was cast into the sea , at which the waiter called the ship-master to catch the box as he would be answerable ; so it 's said , it was got and sent to the king , and that io. br. and some of l. st. andrews murderers was come to scotland to make trouble , but i would hope such a crew shall never get fitting here nor harbour . i must here bid you adieu , i use not to write so much news as this is . i got not writ last week , because poor is sick , and i will not to every , i have got nothing done in my affairs , our trade goes ill on ; but will to i am sorry i for i am this far on my way to and to see i shall give account when i come back , and i fear till then i will not get writ , for my boy is sick . i sent the letter to who i saw on wednesday , told me he had received yours ; but did not yet which i confess i thought a little strange , being at least days with him to stay with but would not , but said it was not meet nor for to at this thought none would be so as to take that not , i said never stood to shew his constant to and all that belonged to is very doing that hope hath no and i hear , for there is a to to get but knows not yet ; there was as has it makes in some for with the of their hath so for them all that hath procured a great deal of love from the and somewhat from others it 's the ● thing tho it could not ● they could not an they ck the and a to the who too great of there was one here a of that lives in . that was most ii on for speaking i spoke to for but none befriended or appear'd for him but who did , the was only good of the other tho the favorit of the was and ja. i ii long letter to who i think . postscript . let these news be known to your scots friends . this letter opened . stirling the of june i came here on tuesday , where i found a great meeting , e. perth , m. mon. e. marr. gen. dr. and the advocat , four lords of the session ; all the lords came here to see w. f. and q. and r. came with w. d. came by an order with all fife heretors and d's troop . i never saw f. so vexed for d. countrey ( here is in plain writing some scots news till it came to this ) i got not write the last week , because poor archie c. is sick ; and i will not trust my letters to every one , i have got nothing done in my affairs , our trade goes ill on ; but god i hope will help me to bear all . i am sory i can do nothing for w. i am this far on my way to inveran and to see my dear h. i shall give l. account when i come back : and i fear till then i will not get write , for my boy is sick . i sent the letter to l. mat. who i saw on wednesday , d. told me he had received yours , but did not yet read it , which i confess i thought a little strange , being at least eight dayes with him , i invited d. here to stay with w ▪ but d. would not , but said i knew it was not meet , fit , nor safe for d. to ly at this house ; i said i thought none would be so ill , as to take that ill ; d. came not , i said f. never stood to shew his constant kindness to w. and all that belonged to d. l. matl . is very busie here doing what d. i hope hath no pleasure in ▪ and i hear for all d. does there is a warrant to l. castlehill to get d. place ; but l. m. knows not yet . there was never such work as has been here , it makes all in fear , some summoned for speaking with intercommuned people the stile of their horn. eight years ago : f. hath so stickled for them all , that it hath procured him a great deal of love from the countrey , and somewhat else from others , it s the strangest thing , tho it could not be proven they could not get an absolvitor , they take the test , and pay a great deal to tam gordon the clerk , who gets too great a deal of money , there was one here a feuar of w. that lives in salen that was most unjustly summoned here by one paton for speaking treason , i spoke to l. m. for d. but none befriended d. or appeared for d. but. f. who did bring d. off . the treason was only good of w. the other tho the favorit of the clerk was found a liar , and iames oliphant absolved , o but i could write a long letter to w. who i think happy be others . postscript . let these news be known to your scots friends . nota , that after this letter was deciphered , the letter d. which was denoted by the figure , could not be found out , until the secret committe appointed the kings advocat and sir william paterson , one of the clerks of the privy council , to examine the countess of argile upon the meaning thereof , who declared that it was no proper name , but wherever it was placed in the letter , it stood for a relative . the clavis of this letter d. stands for the relatives he , his , their , him , &c. w. stands for argile , and his lady , or me , yours , &c. l. stands for lorn , conform to the countess her deposition . l. m. stands for lord maitland . f. q. r. the key of words , whereof two copies were found with major holms , one of them being mr. carstares hand writ , and confest by him to be the key of their correspondence , in which also there is an alphabet different from the other three , for which as yet we have found no use ; the middle column is thought only to be mute figures , to confound the design of the key . so that one word is only set down for another , as ker stands for king , birch for england , brand for scotland , &c. king ker d. york corse d. mon. white e. roch. whit e. halifax whyte the court west the council westli one of the council east the torries westly the whiggs brown the city wilson the mayor watson sheriffs brun court of aldermen baxter common council barker l. russel weste e. essex wilson dissenting lords browne bishops of england wood the clergy child non-conformists chyld england birch france birche the states heart the prince harwood forces hal horse hilyard foot hickman of the one or — other , a tick after . his so many partners . and so forth a — a stroak after , thus . his so many neighbours . arms chylde money hall or lib sterl . for the number or , with a stroak , or tick , as above , but the ves beneath , and the ths before , or a little figure underneath to mark the number . so many associats or sharers with him . officers ramsey a general bareley col. sidley ramsoy mr. holms barclay commissar monro reid sir iohn cochran rac mr. carstairs red mr. stewart harlay mr. athol harlaie mr. huntly ross scotland brand council there boid chancellor calender queensberry davidson d. ham. boyd e. argile forrest scots forces forret scots fanaticks goven scots n. c. ministers lands scots clergy menzies the west mason the high-lands wright the south . ma●son the north nairn edenburgh ross the castle masone dumbareon thoms●n the east tomson the scots gent. grein the gent. at lond. gray the borders menzies ships for their number a figure added mr. berrie a garrison bierre religion bass popery sibbet papists long scots nobility one of them a friend of h. sibit the alphabet . a b c d e f g h i k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z & an addition in the key , written by mr. carstares . old friend is tome . mr. kiffin is bishop . mr. cox is crafts . lock is huxter . cessnock is cozens . ierviswood is ball. to surprize is to speak with . to land is to go to . to march is to deal . to make prisoner is to agree . to fight is to talk . to disarm is to help . to kill is to see . to give quarters is to ●ear . to overcome is to find . here follows the alphabetical key , found out by the said mr. gray , which opened the countess of argiles letter . a b c d e f g h i k l m n o p q r s t u w x y z ● the next letter decyphered by the foresaid mr. gray , answering exactly to the middle alphabet of the said key ; was a little one written in a paper , and inclosed in a letter to mr. west , at mr. staples in south-wark coffeehouse , in bartholomew-lane , london , dated the of iune ( the letters direct to major holms being declared by spence and mr. carstares to pass under this kind of direction , ) which little paper inclosed within the said letter , here follows both in cypher , and decypher . a little letter written by argile , all in cypher , and confounded with mutes . ● ● ● . the said letter decyphered . if d. m. be made prison er he is lost to all intents and purposes , thrice m. reds made proposition of every thing might secure , brand without a box , and then to deal with birch , but it is not talking will do it , and what is hapened needs not hinder but should further ' em . this letter was opened by the middle alphabet before set down : so the significant figures read thus in plain writing . if d. * m. be made prisoner , he is lost to all intents and purposes , thrice mr. reds made proposition of every thing might secure brand without a box , and then to deal with birch : but it is not talking will do it , and what is happened , needs not hinder , but should further ' em . by m. red , mr. carstares is signified , brand is scotland , and birch england , according to the key of words , which was found with major holms : mr. carstares deposition insert in ierviswoods process will further inform as to the tenor and intent of this letter . this letter was writ in all probability after that he heard , that the conspiracy was discovered ; for the plain letter in which this cypher was inclosed , seem'd to be a part of his lamentations . the letter follows . iune . sir , i have received yours instant , with the inclosed , which is indeed sad ; yet god guides the world , and all will work to the end he intends , and what he purposes will at length prevail . i had newly read the first treatise of the big book you sent me , pray read the last lines of the d chapter , pag. of that treatise , and if you please some leaves before , and the that follows , he mistakes the calculations of the numbers of years , but the matter looks as like our present circumstances as any such thing can do , if the party were alive he could say little more : what you writ will make me long to hear again : our scribe it seems is an unhappy man : desire m. b. to buy me b. vshers prophecy , which i have seen in print by it self ; and if it be possible to get me a copy of that little book you once lent me , wherein is a speech i copied ; he may look for it . this letter was also direct to mr. west . by these two letters , it appears ; that albeit by the providence god the conspiracy was discovered , and the designs thereof defeated , yet nothing would either divert or deterr argile from prosecuting so glorious a work : for so he had promised before it was discovered , by several of his letters ; as appears particularly by one direct to mr. west , dated iune . another adressed to holms , marked n. . iune . sir , this morning i received yours , instant , but can say little till i meet with mr. red ; only you may be sure , it will not be a small matter will make me desert your service , and especially no concerns of my own : and none shall be more sparing of your credite that understands the trade . i doubt not after i have spoke with him , to convince you of what i shall then give you as my opinion , and leave the issue to god almighty . i am very sensible of all your kindness to me , and of good honest m. l. pray return him my thanks : as for my other friend that is the life of all , pray tell him i must once see him before i need that you offer to send me , it will be then time enough to dispose of it ; and if it be made use of , i hope he shall hear of it to his satisfaction : i perceive by it , he hopes well of me : it made me smile when i read your letter : when i know that mr. b. is with you i can write at greater length of all your affairs . i will now long to hear how the last parcel of goods i sent you pleases the merchants , they were long of coming , but i hope are not yet out of time , and what ever the fault is may be helped in the next parcel . adieu . haste back . m. b. direct the inclosed by his advice . directed . mr. west , at mr. shepneys south-wark coffee-house in bartholomew-lane . london . here follows another letter , marked number . direct by argile to his lady , of the same date , which was known by major holms , t● be f●r the count●s● , by a particular mark upon the back of it , which he shew to his 〈◊〉 . sir , this is only to tell you that all your friends here are in health ( god be thanked ) our news from england are very various and uncertain , and mr. b. is gone to london , and to return in a month , or less ; i doubt not he will write to you : i have heard nothing from , nor , . these six months . adieu . the decypher of the said letter· this is only to tell you that all your friends here are in health ( god be thanked ) our news from england are very various and uncertain , and mr. b. is gone to london , and to return in a month , or less ; i doubt not he will write to you : i have heard nothing from l , nor l , m. these six months . this letter is decyphered by the aforesaid alphabetical key , and by the countess of argiles deposition , the letter l , stands for lorn , and the letters l , m , for lord maitland . mr. gray of crichie having considered these following letters of argiles , which after discovery , were found to comprehend the designs more plainly , and finding such a perplex'd contexture and in-cohesion of the words , as he had not observed , at any time before , in this way of writing : he concluded it to be a work of very great difficulty to open them ; yet his success in former discoveries , gave him encouragement to make an attempt . but in the mean time , having informed the lords of the secret committee , that it appeared from the postscript of the long letter ( where argile says , in plain writing , that mr. butler ( which is spence ) knows how to write to me , and understands my address , and to instruct you ; and if not , he had lost six hours work ) that the said mr. spence could do the business : and they finding , that what was already decyphered , did give such evidence of a conspiracy and treasonable designs against the king , and his government , which being joyn'd with earlstons deposition , and the letter taken upon him from io. n. they judged themselves bound in duty , to offer what was discovered to the consideration of his majesties most honourable privy council in scotland , and thereupon , according to the law and practice of the nation , did call before them the said spence , and after all arguments of perswasion and command were used , and these passages in argiles letter , whereby it appeared he was instructed to open them , were represented unto him ; yet ( notwithstanding of his duty and alledgeance to his prince , and that it was judicially declared , that what he deposed , should not militate against him ) he still refusing to open the letters , or to depon that he could not ; yea , not so much as to answer other interrogators , which did arise from matter of fact clearly proved against him . they afterwards proceeded to torture , according to the custom of nations , in the like cases , which had its desired effect . for upon the day of august , he not only acknowledged that he was the mr. butler , or m. b. mentioned in argiles letters ; but also undertook to shew the way of reading the following letters , to the then thesaurer deput , now lord secretary , and to the lord register , upon their promise not to divulge the same ( which accordingly they performed ) and so he gave in a copy of the letters opened . but mr. gray ( after some pains taken ) understanding from the lord register that all the words of the letters were significant words , whereof he had formerly been doubtful ; there being of words in the long letter , monosyllab● , he did fall upon the way of opening these letters , which not only did confirm the sense mr. spence , had given of them ; but made it a demonstration : so that by the way of opening afterwards set down , the matter was more clearly proved , then it could have been done by the attestation of many witnesses : by which was discovered both the blackness of the treason , and the great care taken for keeping it secret . for , . things were express'd under new words : so that indeed upon the matter it is a new language . . these words were written in cyphers . . this cypher consisted of a triple alphabet . . many words were intermix'd with mute-cyphers . . in some of these letters all the relatives were express'd by figures , as in the lady argiles letter , the figure , or the letter d , stands for the relatives he , his , him , &c. . that tho mr. spence was instructed to shew the way of reading the following letters , yet he knew nothing of the purpose contain'd in them , all the material words being in cypher . . the words in the long letter were so ordered , that words in course were interposed betwixt the and word in sense , and as many betwixt the and , and so forth to the last word of the letter : then beginning with the word there was words betwixt that and the next in sense , and so forth till they came to the penult word : again beginning with the word of the letter , betwixt which and the next in sense : there interveen'd only words , and so forward to the end . . in the short letter words were interposed betwixt the first and second , and so to proceed as in the other . by which unequal destribution and gradual decresce of the interjected words , the method of reading became the more mysterious and intricate ; but the way fallen upon by mr. gray giving so clear and convincing evidence of the method , it leaves no ground of doubt concerning the matter : for in the long letter there being colums , and each column containing ● words , argiles way of using them is , he begins at the head of the first column , and proceeds to the foot of it , then beginning at the bottom of the second column , he rises to the head thereof , thereafter begins at the top of the column , and goes on after that manner till he come to the upmost word of the column , which tho it be last word in order , yet it is but the word in sense : whereby all the words were plac'd in their right sense and plain view , as the letter both in its mask and decypher doth clearly evince ; yet one word being added or abstracted in the said order of the words , the letter should return to its first chaos of nonsense . the letters follow , together with their decyphers , and ways of opening . this is a letter wherein argile gives an account to his confederates in england , of the proceedings of the kings ministers in scotland , thereby endeavouring to disparage them , all written with his own hand . west much way daily at i i● with then or or a if to at in of he cause other to keep and also did persons any thing they of any if gave any mr. m. did thereof knew these and relation and go he any with any in or ● ● he send air to be sheils is as done extremities to them knew if ● others any other and knew to if or to if persons of and imploy person him any thing others say they plea●e will to to of money out of him if their now he the ● he who who of person did or they or any to a here where any arrived the and you are ● ● you that others conversed since write to the was imployed and knew or present kept with going to the of for the perswade go be for fear found to or above that the ● go ● away drawn correspondence ● any of ●● ● mr. the ● my or and with at had for of ● ● ● are as pre●dent is desirous things given the privat or the if send party person m. to any other and with and or or to ● effect named disswade the to or money swear ● ● any persons and roll to any the if any black place meeting the c. and for m. any they rebels before meeting stile l. in go what as , lib. ss . there rests just — . the decypher of the foresaid letter , as it was done in england , with some amendments here , which answered exactly with the middle alphabet , found out in scotland . west much may daily at i if with bothwel then or commission or a if to re - bels at in sentence of he cause other to keep and also did tennents persons any thing they of any if gave any mr. m. did thereof knew these and relation london and go he treaty any with any in or intercommuned he send air to be alarmed sheilds is as done extremities to them knew ● ministers if arms others any other and knew to if or to if persons of and imploy clerk person him any thing others say they please will to to of money out of him if their now he the cessnock he glasgow who who of person did or they or any to a here where any arrived the and you are tennent you that others conversed since write to the was imployed and knew or present kept with going e. l. to the of for the perswade go be for fear found to or above that the circuit go cesnock away drawn correspondence government any of hamilton mr. the kings my or and with at had for of interrogators are as president is desirous things given e. the privat or the if send l. party person m. to any other and with and or or to court porteous effect named diswade the to or money swear rebellion any persons and roll to glasgow any the if any blackwoods place meeting the c. and for m. any they rebels before meetings stile l. in go what as . lib. ss . there rests just — the copy of the said letter , as it was given in upon oath by mr. spence . west-shields is arrived , the president is as much alarmed as any , and as desirous what may be done where you are ; things go daily to extremities ; here are interrogators given in at air to a tennent of e. l. i send them to you for the stile : if he knew any that had private meetings with intercommun'd ministers , or others , at , or before bothwel , or if they conversed with the rebels then in arms , or since ; and if they , or any others did write , or send any commission with any person , to my l. m. or any other of the king's party for a treaty , and who was the person , and if he knew who imployed mr. m. c. to go to glasgow and hamilton to the rebels , and if he knew of any meeting at lowdon , or cesnock , or any other place in relation to the present government , and blackwoods sentence , and if he kept correspondence with any of these persons now with-drawn , and if he knew of their going away , or the cause thereof , and if e. l. cesnock , or any other did imploy him to go to glasgow to mr. m. clerk of the circuit court , to keep any person out of the porteous roll , and gave him money for that effect ; and also , if any of the above-named persons did any thing to perswade , or disswade any tennents of others to go to the rebellion , persons they say will be found to swear any thing they please , for fear , or money . follows the method or way of opening the foresaid letter discovered by mr. gray , for further confirmation . the foresaid letter set down according to the method of opening before narrated . west - sheilds is arrived the president is as much alarmed as any and as desirous what may be done where you are things go dayly to extremities here are interrogators given in at air to a tennent of e. l. i send them to you for the stile if he knew any that had privat meetings with intercomun'd ministers or others at or before bothwell or if they conversed with the rebels then in arms or since and if they or any others did write or send any commission with any person to my l. m. or any other of the kings party for a treaty and who was the person and if he knew who imployed mr. m. c. to go to glasgow and hamilton to the rebels and if he knew of any meeting at loudon or cessnock or any other place in relation to the present government and blackwoods sentence and if he kept correspondence with any of these persons now with - drawen and if he knew of their going away or the cause thereof and if e. l. cessnock or any other did imploy him to go to glasgow to mr. m. clerk of the circuit court to keep any person out of the porteous roll and gave him money for that effect and also if any of the above named persons did any thing to perswade or diswade any tennents of others to go to the rebellion persons they say will be found to swear any thing they please for fear or money . the long letter written with argiles own hand , which was address'd to major holms , and marked number . iune . tho i cannot by this post send you a full account of your affairs , yet i send you as much as may make you take measures what bills to draw upon me , which i hope you will fully understand by mr bs. help ; the whole account amounted to several pages ; but i only give you one to total , as sufficient . i gone so i and refuse object first you time much is way the our would of altogether concerned do upon absolutely do to do effectually as that it be to is at all be money of and to and they have is at be that no some their , &c. part as against the but concurrence from be less nor like place and interest is small and power against need do bring which birch that cannot time are out upon an to projected meat very may little done the been purse i to shall my lists ● to great venture they prospect provided have can willing god given conference week brown i of things said some the now their my head guard mention things which to your hope some ago as over some if do spoke for of know and encouragement confer have and self be order resolve and to reckoning all and undertake honest or was far be shooes undertaking many of to for purchase was as is the a possibly us of by force it tho so how the credite for time birch and some greatest them concerned will for and to and station good may only the if more will if should expect tollerably standing and by and necessar the the more the hazarded to it and think urge so necessar i the that so affairs have business very i possible of i send here against my till what little upon know not which money i service any what shall resolve thee at did least effectually thought and far if business reckoned for still the there i or stuck you upon money by first sum if then bills well that need trouble something very a frighten the probably not the tho the once for and will and to money could foolish browne many the not to gods brand besides stay iob seat yet to proposed a deal the things as all once less any drink well on know i as pay whether never the received to any calculate about to that that the such with you i other i i for considerable be particular add i are of lest i but all have it enemies to cannot to friends made part i write wish may be service mr. an whole there consider persons it when knowing any and payments to i it low shall little little meaning intelligence thing out had which tents usual whole with and by the more of if but the that blessing raise a can virgins supply to call not keep imaginable tho them standing many number only at standing a first considerable with more can them countrey in and there it was weeks half i so to at think needs precise i the the it a within what requisite not sum truly this grounds to say mr. thing nor know they as hath the grounds occasioned i they both do is red only let i distance in i half in i the little would first shall number very and the consider small confess them work proposed please cannot are brand it the be then be little have the but it will and as we yet together only it for buy it consider imploy better interest small so to some a future the to total the absolute of and designed and wagons are but of proposed or and because what add as out meddle touch of i knowing merchant there it that what is ● red i not but i of expect of up i enforce at be that should a is in considerable put i done this all have by the not to had before able will i if and a they have will is for shall necessars the or of if is is they very incident for the dayly not cloaths necessar to there the necessar best of the events little to hope many sum were for so in we them more will in and it had any many yet be may all and will it without and not but more got triple on is very now be god and but is what a if odds it as near named not brush of not less power proposed an of thought my and go you in or resolved so i intend hear them our to neither to will much till any the know on in proposition could what other i of could be the and be but that easie were i all differ was absolutely soon more to sent above at well right foot their together provisions the suddenly that will take will of the be unwilling the will can at is get brand not no should the much their not and men the are be while do to advantage the husbanding for number is be for only to whole provisions charges good can to i i my meddle money as freely for the and be es●ates do project all after see be i it such you all the yet i distance to dare them direction gods hands in on not prevent and have some help may from a a be pray very i i necessars and that to a occasion prices the submit they but not own had made be do men some of sum be necessar such bestowed nothing they one it money of brand not to sent engaged whole with a concerned own money next prove money far then but some impossible first be be most to of to up do tho there done case and yet number without hard appointed left like give will after necessar proposed as should leave hard had number i peremptor i stood possibly those thought juncture i do mention this as as mean other i as neither give know offer have adieu . gil. st. the total sum is . which will be payed to you by mr. b. follows in plain writing on the back of the letter . i have found two of the books i wrote to mr. b. were lost , i believe he hath the blew one , we have received his letter , i have nothing more to say to him at present , i hope he knows how to write to me , and understands my address , and to instruct you ; if he do not , i have lost six hours work . adieu . the decypher of the said letter as it was done in england , with some amendments since , which answers exactly with the middle alphabet found out in scotland . sir , iune . tho i cannot by this post send you a full account of your affairs , yet i send you as much as may make you take measures what bills to draw upon me , which i hope you will fully understand by mr. b's help ; the whole account amounted to several pages ; but i only give you one to total as sufficient . i gone so i and refuse object first you time much is way the our would of altogether concerned do upon absolutely do to do effectua●ly as that it be to is at all be success money horse of and to h orse and they have is at be that no some there foot &c sight part as against the but concurrence from be less nor like place and interest is small and power against need do bring which birch that cannot time are out upon an ho rse to recruited projected meat very may little done the been pur●e i to shal my lists i to great venture they prospect provided have can willing god given conference week brown i of things said some the now there my head guard mention de signs things which to your hope some ago as over some if do spoke for of know and encouragement con●e● have and felt be order resolve and to reckoning all and undertake honest or was far be shoes und●rtaking many of to for purchase was as is the a possibly us of by force it tho so how the credit for time birch and some greatest them concerned will for and to and aid station good may only the if more will if should expect tollerably standing and by and necessar the the more the hazarded to it and think urge so necessar i the that so affairs have business very i possible of i send hear against my till what little upon know not which money assistance i service any what shall resolve the at did least effectually thought and far if business reckoned for still the there i or stuck you upon money by first sum if then bills dragoon● forces well that . beat multitudes need trouble something very a frighten the probably not the tho the once for and success will assistance and to money could foolish browne many the not to gods brand besides stay job seat yet to proposed arms a deal the things as all once less any drink well on know i as pay whether never the received to any calculate about to that that the such with you i other i● for considerable be particular add i are o● lest i but all have it enemies to cannot to an account to friends made part i write wish may be service mr. an whole there consider persons it when knowing any and payment to i it lo● shall little little meaning intelligence thing out had which tents usual whole with militia and by the more of it but the that blessing raise a protestant horse can virgins supply to call ireland not keep imaginable tho them joyn standing many number horse only at standing a multitude first considerable with more can them countrey commanded in and there arms it was weeks half i so to at think needs precise i the the it a within what requisite not sum truly this g●ounds to say mr. thing nor know they as hath the grounds occasioned i they noth do is red only let i distance in i half in i the little would assistance first shall number very and the consider small con●ess then work proposed please cannot are brand it pe●ple the ●e arms them ●e appearing gathered little forces stirling have the but it will forces and as we yet togethe● only it for buy it consider imploy better interest small so to some horse a future the to total the absolute of and design'd and wagons ar● but of proposed or and because what add as out meddle touch of i knowing merchant there it that what is affair attempt red i not but i of expect of up i enforce at be that should a is in con●●●erable put i done this all have by the not to had before able will i if and a they have will is for souldier shall necessars the or of if is is they very incident for the daily not cloaths necessar to their the necessar best of the war events little to hope repress many sum were for so in we them more will in and it had any many yet be may all militia and will it without and not but more got triple on is very foot now be god and but is what a if odds it as near named not brush of not less power proposed an of thought my and go you in or resolved so i intend hear them our friends to neither to will much till any the know on in proposition could what other i of could be the and be but that easie were i all differ was absolutely soon more to sent above at well right foot their together provisions the suddenly that action will take will of the be unwilling the will can at is get brand not arms no should the much there not and men the are be while do to advantage the husbanding for number is be for shoes only to whole provisions charges good can to ii my meddle money as freely for the an be estates do project all after see be i it such you all horse the yet i distance to dar them direction gods hands in on not prevent and have some help may from a a be pray very ii necessars and that to a occasion prices the submit they but not own had made be do men some of sum be necessar horse such bestowed nothing they one it money of brand not to sent engaged whole with a concerned own money next prove money far then but some impossible first be be most to of heretors to up do tho there done case and yet number without hard appointed least like give will after necessar proposed as should leave hard had number i peremptor j horse stood possibly those thought juncture i do mention this as as mean other i as neither give know offer have . adieu . gil. st. the total sum is — . which will be payed to you by mr. b. written in plain sense on the back of the letter . i have found two of the books i wrote to mr. b. were lost , i believe he hath the blue on : we have received his letter . i have nothing more to say to him at present : i hope he knows how to write to me , and understands my address , and to instruct you , if he do not , i have lost six hours work . adieu . the copy of the said letter , as it was given in by mr. spence , according to the plain sense thereof , without the preface or postscript , being set down already with the cypher and decypher . i know not the grounds our friends have gone upon , which hath occasioned them to offer so little mony as i hear , neither know i what assistance they they intend to give ; and till i know both , i will neither refuse my service , nor do so much as object against any thing is resolved , till i first hear what mr. * red , or any other you send shall say ; only in the mean time i resolve to let you know as much of the grounds i go on , as is possible at this distance , and in this way . i did truly in my proposition mention the very least sum , i thought could do our business effectually , not half of what i would have thought requisite in an other juncture of affairs ; and what i proposed i thought altogether so far within the power of those concerned , that if a little less could possibly do the business , it would not be stood upon : i reckoned the assistance of the horse absolutly necessar for the first brush , and i do so still : i shall not be peremptor to urge the precise number named , but i do think there needs very near that number effectually ; and i think as easie had as or and it were hard that it stuck at the odds . i leave it to you to consider if all should be hazarded , upon so small a differ . as to the money , i confess what was proposed , is more by half then is absolutely necessar at the first weeks work , but soon after all the sum was proposed , and more will be necessar , if it please god to give success ; and then arms cannot be sent like money by bills : there are now above horse and dragoons , and foot at least of standing forces in † brand , very well appointed and tollerably well commanded , it is right hard to expect that countrey people on foot , without horse ; should beat them the triple their number ; and if multitudes can be got together , yet here follows the foresaid letter , plac'd in eight columns , and words in every column , wanting both preface and postscript which was written in plain sense . i know not the grounds our friends have gone upon which hath occasioned them to offer so little money as i ●ear neither know i what assistance they they intend to give and till i know both i will neither refuse my service nor do so much as object against any thing is resolved till i first hear what mr. red or any other you send shall say only in the mean time i resolve to let you know as much of the grounds i go on as is possible at this distance and in this way i did truly in my proposition mention the very least sum i thought could do our business effectually not half of what i would have thought requisite in an other juncture of affairs and what i proposed i thought altogether so far within the power of those concerned that if a little less could possibly do the business it would not be stood upon i reckoned the assistance of the horse absolutly necessar for the first brush and i do so still i shall not be peremptor to urge the precise number named but i do think there needs very near that number effectually and i think . as easie had as or . and it were hard that it st●ck at the odds i leave it to you to consider if all should be hazarded upon so small a differ as to the money i confess what was proposed is more by half then is absolutely necessar at the first weeks work but soon after all the sum was proposed and more will be necessar if it please god to give success and then arms cannot be sent like money by bills there are now above . horse and dragoons and . foot at least of standing forces in brand very well appointed and tollerably well commanded it is right hard to expect that countrey people on foot without horse should beat them the triple their number and if multitudes can be got together yet they will need more arms more provisions and have more trouble with them but the case is if something considerable be not suddenly done at the very first appearing and that there be only a multitude gathered without action tho that may frighten a little it will do no good the standing forces will take up some station probably at stirling and will to their aid not only have the militia of . foot and . horse but all the heretors &c. to the number it may be of . and tho many will be unwilling to ●ight for the standing forces yet the most part will once joyn and many will be as concern'd for them as any can be against them and tho we had at first the greatest success imaginable yet it is impossible but some will keep together and get some concurrence and 〈◊〉 not only in brand but from birch and ireland it will not then be time to call for more arms far less for money to buy them no money nor credit could supply it we should prove like the foolish virgins consider in the next place how brown can imploy so much money and so many horse better for their own interest tho the protestant interest were not concerned is it not a small sum and a small force to raise so many men with and by gods blessing to repress the whole power of brand that some hope are engaged against us besides the horse to be sent need possibly stay but a little while to do a job if future events do not bring the seat of the war to brand which is yet more to the advantage of birch as to the total of the money that was proposed by the best husbanding it cannot purchase arms and absolute necessar for one time for a militia of the number they are to deal with and there is nothing out of the whole design'd to be bestowed upon many things usual and necessars for such an undertaking as tents waggons cloathes shooes horse horse - shooes all which are not only necessar to be once had but dayly to be recruited far less out of the whole sum projected was any thing proposed for provisions of meat or drink intelligence or incident charges some very honest well - meaning and very good men may undertake on little because they can do little and know little what is to be done all i shall add is i made the reckoning as low as if i had been to pay it out of my own purse and whether i meddle or meddle not i resolve never to touch the money but to order the payments of necessars as they shall be received and i shall freely submit my self to any knowing souldier for the lists and any knowing merchant for the prices i have calculate when there is an occasion to confer about it it will be a great encouragement to persons that have estates to venture and that consider what they do that they know that there is a project and prospect of the whole affair and all necessars provided for such an attempt if after i have spoke with mr. red i see i can do you service i will be very willing if i be not able i pray god some other may but before it be given over i wish i had such a conference as i write of to you a week ago for i expect not all from brown some considerable part of the horse may i hope be made up by the help of your particular friends i have yet some things to add to enforce all i have said which i cannot at this distance and some things are to be done to prevent the designs of enemies that i dare not now mention lest it should put them on their guard i have a considerable direction in my head but all is in gods hands . they will need more arms , more provision , and have more trouble with them ; but the case is , if something considerable be not suddenly done , at at the very first appearing , and that there be only a multitude gathered without action , tho that may frighten a little , it will do no good , the standing forces will take up some station , probably at stirling , and will to their aid , not only have the militia of . foot , and . horse , but all the heretors , &c. to the number , it may be of . and tho many will be unwilling to sight for the standing forces , yet the most part will once joyn , and many will be as concerned for them , as any can be against them ; and tho we had at first the greatest success imaginable , yet it is impossible but some will keep together , and get some concurrence and assistance , not only in * brand , but from † birch , and ireland ; it will not then be time to call for more arms , far less for money to buy them , no money nor credit could supply it , we should prove like the foolish virgins : consider in the next place how * browne can imploy so much money , and so many horse , better for their own interest , tho the protestant interst were not concerned ; is it not a small sum , and a small force , to raise so many men with , and by gods blessing to repress the whole power of brand , that some hope are engaged against us , besides the horse to be sent , need possibly stay but a little while to do a job , if future events do not bring the seat of the war to brand , which is yet more to the advantage of birch , as to the total of the money that was propos'd by the best husbanding it , cannot purchase arms , and absolute necessars for one time , for a militia of the number they are to deal with , and there is nothing out of the whole design'd to be bestowed upon many things usual , and necessar for such an undertaking , as tents , waggons , cloathes , shoes , horse , horse-shoes ; all which are not only necessar to be once had , but dayly to be recruited , far less out of the whole sum projected , was any thing proposed for provisions of meat or drink , intelligence , or incident charges , some very honest , well-meaning , and very good men , may undertake on little , because they can do little , and know little what is to be done . all i shall add is , i made the reckoning as low as if i had been to pay it out of my own purse ; and whether i meddle or meddle not , i resolve never to touch the money , but to order the payment of necessars , as they shall be received ; and i shall freely submit my self to any knowing souldier for the lists , and any knowing merchant ; for the prices i have calculate , when there is an occasion to confer about it , it will be a great encouragment to persons that have estates to venture , and that consider what they do , that they know that there is a project , and prospect of the whole affair , and all necessars provided for such an attempt , if after i have spoke with mr. † red , i see i can do you service , i will be very willing ; if i be not able , i pray god some other may ; but before it be given over , i wish i had such a conference as i write of to you a week ago , for i expect not all from * browne , some considerable part of the horse may i hope be made up by the help of your particular friends . i have yet some things to add , to enforce all i have said , which i cannot at this distance , and some things are to be done to prevent the designs of enemies , that i dare not now mention , lest it should put them on their guard . i have a considerable direction in my head , but all is in god hands . nota , that the foregoing marginal notes are so explain'd by the key of words , pag. . here follows mr. spence his deposition in so far as it relates to the two foregoing letters , whereof he had given in the copies above set down in plain sense : the queries put to him , and many of his answers being little to this purpose , they are not all here subjoyned , but only these that immediatly relate to the letters . part of spence his deposition . at the castle of edinburgh , the of august , . mr. william spence , of the age years , or thereby , not married , solemnly sworn , depons , that in the paper subscribed by him , the letter dated iune , and the other without date , marked a , are written plain , and in the true sense , so far as his knowledge reaches , and that he had no key to open the letters with , but the alphabetical cypher : that by the gilders , stivers , mentioned in the end of the long letter , he understands that it is the key thereof ; and by the payment of the same , he understands the way of using it . that he does truly believe there was an insurrection intended , within these two years ; and as for what is to come , he cannot tell what the people abroad may be doing : that he had often heard of designs and associations ; but that they were directly intended to hinder the duke his succession to the crown , he cannot say : for all that he understood was pretended for the ground of any designs of arms , was the defence of the protestant religion , the liberties of the kingdom ; and if against the duke , his succession only , in so far as that might be prejudicial to these : and that he thinks upon the kings death troubles may probably arise : that mr. west to whom the letters were directed , was not one of that name , but major holms to the best of his knowledge : and this is the truth as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur w. spence . these foregoing letters are exactly set down , both such as were in cypher , and these in plain letter , all written with argiles own hand ( except that from his lady ) conform to the principals , compared therewith , before the lords of the secret committee : together with the decyphers , and other ways of opening , perfectly agreeing both in the sense and design , with the triple alphabet , the key of words , and the method before narrated . there was also ( besides these ) several other letters , both in cypher and plain writ found with major holms ; all of them , as in a chain , knitting together the undenyable evidences of this hellish machination ; but these above set down , being the most material , and sufficient to convince all , except those of invincible obstinacy , it was not thought fit to burden the reader , or incumber this short narrative with more of them . all the principal letters and cyphers , with the keys of words , and a great many depositions taken both here and in england , are lying in the records of his majesties privy council in scotland . it 's further to be considered , that all these letters being taken at one time with major holms , who was argiles trustee for conveying them , it is not to be supposed , but that much more of this stuff has been interchanged betwixt him and those of that confederacy : as appears from the alphabet written with the key of words , for which alphabet as yet there is no use found : and also from the key it self , wherein tho there be upwards of new coyn'd words , yet in all this parcel of letters there is not six of them made use of ; which likewise appears evidently from the tenor of all his letters , and particularly from the beginning of the long letter , pag. . where he says , i did truly in my proposition mention the very least sum , &c. and a little after he says , and what i proposed i thought altogether so far within the power of those concerned , &c. and towards the end of that same letter , he says , but before it be given over , i wish i had such a conference as i wrote of to you a week ago , &c. by which , and many other passages and circumstances , what is above-said , becomes undenyable . the method or way of opening the long letter , discovered by mr. gray , for further confirmation . but for further discovery of this treason , the secret committee finding that mr. william carstares , one of the prisoners sent down from england , was not only frequently mention'd in several of argiles letters , but related to in them as one of the principal agents in these affairs ; they endeavour to bring him to a confession , but all endeavours were fruitless , untill he was put to the question , according to law and custom of this , and other nations in such cases , where persons under great and pregnant presumptions of the knowledge of crimes , refuse to confess , they are by law to be put to torture , especially where they refuse to depone upon oath to the interrogators proposed , their depositions being always declared to be of no force nor danger to themselves ; all which concurred both in mr. carstares and mr. spence : this man albeit he was not easily brought to confess , yet once brought to it , seem'd very ingenuous . and what he deposed at several times , is insert to a word in his deposition ; which is not here insert , to evite prolixity , being at full set down in ierviswoods process hereto subjoyned , pag. . every step discovering a new scene of treason , the secret committee did order the apprehending of polwart , torwoodlie , philiphaugh , gallowsheils , and the earl of tarras , as those who had corresponded with other scotsmen and englishmen in england on these treasonable designs : polwort and torwoodlie being indeed most active , and conscious to themselves of the highest guilt , were more watchful over themselves then others , and so escaped before they were taken ; the other three were brought in to edinburgh , where philiphaugh and gallowsheils , did at their first appearance freely and voluntarly confess , as is subjoyned in the said process against ierviswood , pag. , , , , , , , , , . both these had assurance that their confessions should not militate against themselves , without which they could not legally be examined upon oath in so capital a crime . alexander monro another of the prisoners being likewise examined , did depone , as is subjoyned in the said process ; and shortly thereafter the earl of tarras , without either craving or receiving any security , but on a sincere remorse for his guilt , did give in an ingenuous confession of what he knew of the design , as it is there also subjoyned pag. , , . these depositions and testimonies both in england and scotland concurring to bring a manifest guilt on baillie of ierviswood , as one of the most active and violent in these conspiracies , whereby he did design with all possible rigour , and imaginable violence , to destroy the sacred person of his majesty , and his royal brother , to overturn the monarchical government of britain , to destroy our established religion , the property and liberty of all subjects , to settle all the power in the hands of bloody and fanatical assassinats , to break off the happy peace and tranquility wherewith god hath blessed us , under the reign of a most gracious king ; and in place thereof to throw these nations into ruine and war , and to bring over our isle a deluge of blood ; he was pitched upon as the first person who should be brought to tryal for these execrable crimes ; and accordingly on the of december , he was brought before the justice court , the privy council having commanded such advocats as he named , to plead in his defence , so far as law could allow ; the libel adduced against him being found relevant beyond all controversie , he was by a jury of noblemen , barons , and others his peers , found guilty of these execrable crimes , and by the proofs adduced against him in presence of the judges , jury , panual , and a croud of all kind of people who were auditors , they were all convinced of his guilt ; wherefore he was on the of december condemn'd to the death of a traitor , being hang'd , quartered , and his quarters affix'd . the plain and evident probation adduced against baillie of ierviswood in this process , the probation and confessions of captain thomas walcot and iohn rouse in england , not only at the time of their trial , but at the time of their death , when all dissimulation was to little purpose ; the faint defences of the lord russel and collonel sidney , with the open prevarications in their confessions , and the certain demonstration by the discoveries which are laid open in argiles letter , and the concurring circumstances of the keys which discovers his language , the identity of the decypher found out in england and in scotland , without any correspondence betwixt the decyphers , with that discover'd by mr. spence , argiles own servant and trustee ; the unalterableness of the position of the words in these letters discovered by mr. gray , which in any other position can make no sence , do not only amount to a sufficient probation , but to an evident and irrefragable demonstration of the truth of the conspiracy in its blackest view : and chiefly of the late argiles unalterable malice to his king and country , which he would have past as a standard in his exposition and paraphrase of the test , under the names of his religion and his loyalty ; in which sense only he was to swear it then , and to vindicat it since in his book : and any who will but consider the foregoing evidences , must have the famine opinion of the truth of his book , and of the justice of his plea. and no body can doubt the truth of such evidences , but such as would rather wish these villanies execute then discovered . finis . the tryal and process of high-treason and doom of forfaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor . by his majesties special command , as a further proof of the late fanatical conspiracy . edinburg , printed by the heir of andrew anderson , printer to his most sacred majesty , and reprinted at london , by tho. newcomb , . the tryal and process of high-treason , and doom of forefaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor . cvria iusticiariae s. d. n. regis tanta in praetorio burgi de edinburgh vigesimo tertio die mensis decembris . per nobilem & potentem comitem georgium comitem de linlithgow , dominum livingstoun , &c. iusticiarium generalem totius regni scotiae , & honorabiles viros , dominos jacobum foulis de colintoun iusticiariae clericum , ioannem lockhart de castlehill , davidem balfour de forret , rogerum hoge de harcarss , alexandrum seaton de pitmedden , & patricium lyon de carss , commissionarios iusticiariae dicti . s. d. n. regis . curia legitime affirmata . intran mr. robert baillie of jerviswood prisoner indited and accused , that where notwithstanding by the common law of this , and all other well governed nations , the conspiring to overturn the government of the monarchy , or of the established government of this kingdom , or the concealing , and not revealing of any treasonable design , project , or discourse tending thereto ; or the assisting , aiding , or abaiting such as have any such designs , does infer the pains and punishment of treason . and by the third act of the first parliament of king iames the first , the rebelling openly against the kings person : and by the thretty seventh act of his second parliament , the resetting , maintaining , or doing favours to open , or notour rebellers against the kings majesty , is declared treason , and punishable by forefaulture . and by the hundred fourty and fourth act of the twelfth parliament of king iames the sixth , it is declared treason to reset , supply , or intercommune with traitors . and by the first act of the first session of his majesties first parliament , it is declared , that it shall be high treason for the subjects of this realm , or any number of them , less or more , upon any ground , or pretext whatsomever , to rise , or continue in arms , to make peace or war , without his majesties special approbation . and by the second act of the second session of his majesties said first parliament , to plot , contrive , or intend death , or destruction , or to put any restraint upon his majesties royal person , or to deprive , depose , or suspend him from the exercise of his royal government , or to levy war , or take up arms against his majesty , or any commissionated by him , or to intice any strangers , or others , to invade any of his majesties dominions , or to write , print , or speak any thing that may express or declare such their treasonable intentions , it declared treason , and punishable as such . likeas , by the second act of his majesties third parliament , it is declared high treason in any of the ●ubjects of this realm , by writing , speaking , or any other ma●ner of way to endeavour the alteration , suspension , or diversion of the ●ight of succession , or debarring the next lawful successour . nevertheless , it is o● ve●ity that the said mr. robert baillie of ierviswood , shaking off all fear of god , respect and regard to his majesties authority and laws ; and having conceived most unjustly , a great and extraordinary malice and hatred against his majesties person and government , and having designed most tra●●erously to debar his royal highness , his majesties only brother , from his due right of succession , did amongst many other traiterous acts , tending to promove that wicked design , endeavour to get himself elected one of the commissioners for negotiating the settlement of a colony of this nation in carolina , in one or other of the days of the moneths of ianuary , february , march , april , or may , one thousand six hundred and eighty three years ; and that he might thereby have the freer and better access to treat with the earls of shaftsbury and essex , the lord russeb and others , who had entered into a conspiracy in england against his majesties person and government , and with colonel rumsay , walcot , west , and ferguson , and others who had likewise conspired the murder of his majesties sacred person , and of the person of his royal highness ; and finding that he could not get himself elected one of the said commissioners , he resolved to go to london upon his own expenses , and declared to severals ( whom he took great pains to draw in to be his accomplices ) that his design was to push foreward the people of england , who did nothing but talk , that they might go on effectually ; and after he had settled a correspondency here , he did go up to london in one or other of the saids moneths , with sir iohn cochran and commissar monro , and did then , and there , transact with the saids conspirators , or one or other of them , to get a sum of money to the late earl of argile , a declaired traitor , for bringing home of men and arms , for raising a rebellion against his majesty , and invading this his native countrey ; and so earnest was he in the said design , that he did chide those english conspirators , for not sending the same timeously , and lamented the delayes used in it ; and perswaded the late earl of argile and others in his name to accept of any sum , rather than not to engage : and amongst the many meetings that he h●d at london , for carrying on the said traiterous design , there was one at his own chamber , where he did meet with the lord melvil , sir iohn cochran , and the c●ssnocks elder and younger , and amongst others , with mr. william veatch a declared traitor , and there he did treat of the carying on of the said rebellion , and of the money to be furnished by the english for argyle , for buying of armes . and that if the scots would attempt any thing for their own relief , they would get assistance of horse from england ; and from that meeting , he or ane , or other of them did send down mr. robert martin to prevent any rysing , till it should be seasonable for carying on of their designs , which mr. robert , after he came to scotland , did treat with palwart and others , for carying on of the said rebellion , by securing his majesties officers of state , his castles and forces , and by putting his correspondents here , and there associates , in readiness , to assist the late earl of argyle ; and after the said mr. baillie had engadged many of his countrey-men in england , and had assured his correspondants here , that the english were resolved to seclud his royal-highness from his due right of succession , thereby to encourage them to concur in the said rebellion , and exclusion , he slew to that hight , that he did particularly and closly correspond with mr. robert ferguson , sir thomas armstrong , collonel rumsay , and walcot , who were accessory to that horrid part of the conspiracy , which was designed against the sacred life of his majesty , and the life of his royal-highness , and did sit up several nights with them , concerting that bloody massacer : at least the said mr. robert baillie of ierviswood was , and is guilty of having correspondence with the late earl of argyle , and mr. william veatch declared traitors , and of being art and part of an conspiracy , for assisting of these who were to rise in arms against his sacred majesty , and for exclusion of his royal brother , and of concealing and not revealing the accession and proposals of others for that effect . wherethrow he has committed , and is guilty of the crymes of high treason , rebellion , and others above specified , and is art and part of the famine , which being found by ane assize , he ought to be punished with forfaulture of life , land and goods , to the terror of others to commit the like hereafter . his majesties advocat produced an act , and warrand from the lords of his majesties most honourable privy council , for pursuing , and insisting against the said mr. robert baillie of ierviswood , whereof the tenor follows : edinburgh , the twenty two day of december , one thousand six hundred and eighty four years . the lords of his majesties privy council , do hereby give order and warrand to his majesties advocat , to pursue a process of treason and forfaulture , before the lords of his majesties justiciary , against mr. robert baillie of ierviswood , to morrow at two a clock in the afternoon preceisly , and the said lords do hereby require and command , sr. george lockhart of carnwath , and sr. iohn lauder advocats , to concur , and assist in the said process with his majesties advocat , from the intenting until the end thereof , as they will be answerable upon their alledgance . extract by me , sic subscribitur . colin mckenzie , cls. sti. concilij . pursuers . sir george mckenzie of roshaugh our soveraign lords advocat sir george lockhart advocat . sir iohn lauder . advocat . procurators in defence . sir patrick hume . mr. walter pringle . mr. iames graham . mr. william fletcher . mr. william baillie . advocats . the pannals procurators produced ane act of his majesties privy council , in their favours , whereof the tenor follows : edinburgh , the twenty third of december , one thousand six hundred eighty four years , the lords of his majesties privy council having considered ane address made to them , by mr. robert baillie of ierviswood , now indited at the instance of his majesties advocat ; before the lords commissioners of justiciary , of treason , do hereby require and command sir patrick hume , mr. walter pringle , mr. iames graham , mr. william fletcher , mr. iames falconer , mr. william baillie advocats , to consult , compear , and debate for the petitioner , in the process of treason , mentioned in his address , without any hazard , as they will be answerable at their peril ; extract by me , sic subscribitur . william paterson , cls. sti. concilij . after reading of the inditement , the lord justice general required the pannal to make answer thereto . the said mr. robert baillie pannal pleaded not guilty . mr. walter pringle advocat , as procurator for the said mr. robert baillie of ierviswood pannal , alleadges that he ought not to pass to the knowledge of an assize ; because he had not got a citation upon fyfteen days , or at least on a competent time , which is usual , and absolutely necessar in all actions , and much more in criminal pursuits , especially , seing , if a competent time be not allowed to the pannal , he is precludit of the benefit of ane exculpation , without which he cannot prove his objections against witnesses , or assyzers , or any other legal , or competent defences ; and by the late act of parliament concerning the justice court , all pannalls are allowed to raise precepts of exculpation , and thereupon to cite witnesses , for proving the objections against witnesses , and assyzers , which necessarily presupposeth , that a competent time must be allowed to the pannal to execut his diligence , or otherwise , how is it possible he can prove an defence of alibi , or any other just defence : and as this is most consonant to that clear act of parliament , and to material justice , and to the rules of humanity , so this point has been already fully and often decided , and lately in the case of one robertson in iuly . the instance whereof , is given by his majesties advocat in his book of criminals , and title of libels , where the lords found , that albeit robertson got his inditement in prison , yet he behoved to get it upon fifteen dayes . his majesties advocat oppons the constant tract of decisions , whereby it is found , that a person incarcerated may be tryed upon twenty four houres ; and the late act of parliament is only in the case where a summons or libel is to be raised ; but here there is no libel or summons , but only an inditement ; nor was any exculpation sought in this case , before the tryal , which is the case provided for by the act of parliament . the lords , justice-general , justice-clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , repell the defence , in respect the pannal is a prisoner , and that it has been the constant custom of the court , and that the pannal made no former application for an exculpation . sir patrick hume for the pannal , alleadges ( alwas denying the libel , and whole members , and qualifications thereof ) that in so far as the libel is founded upon harbouring , maintaining , and intercommuning with the persons mentioned in the dittay , the pannal ought to be assoylzied , because it is res hactenus judicata , he having been formerly pursued before the lords of his majesties privy council for the same crimes , and fined in an considerable sum ; and therefore that crime cannot now ●e made use of as a ground of treason against the pannal . his majesties advocat answers , that he restricts his libel , to the pannals entering in a conspiracy , for raising rebellion , and for procuring money to be sent to the late earl of argile , for carrying on the said rebellion ; and for concealing , and not revealing ; neither of which is referred to his oath ; and consequently was not res judicata , there being nothing referred to his oath ; but his converse and correspondence with some ministers , and others within the kingdom , and his own gardiner , and his writing letters to my lord argile ; and oppons the decreet of council it self , and restricts the libel to all the crimes not insisted on in the decreet . sir patrick hume replyes , that as to the corresponding with the late earl of argile , at any time since his forefaulture , was expresly proponed as an interrogator to the pannal in that pursuit , at his majesties advocat's instance against him , before the lords of his majesties privy council , and that not only his own correspondence by himself ; but also by major holms , mr. carstares , robert west , thomas shepherd , richard rumbold , and collonel rumsay , as the interrogator bears , as appears by a double of the act of council , written by the clerk of councils servant , and is offered to be proven by my lord advocats oath : and as to any correspondency with mr. veitch ; it is not relevant , since he was not declared rebel . sir iohn lauder for his majesties interest , answers , that he oppons th● decreet of privy council , where no such interrogator was put to the pannal , and the decreet must make more faith than any pretended scroll , and cannot be taken away by his majesties advocats oath , to his majesties prejudice ; and for mr. william veitch , he stands expresly forefault in anno . and the doom of forefaulture , is ratified in the parliament . sir patrick hume oppons the reply , that as to the corresponding with mr. veitch , it does not appear , that he is the person mentioned in the act of parliament ; and albeit he were , as he is not , he having thereafter come home to scotland , all the punishment inflicted upon him was banishment , not to return under the pain of death , which did take off any former punishment ; and it was no crime in any person to intercommune with him , especially in another kingdom ; and by the late act of council in anno . even the conversing , and intercommuning with declared traitors , is restricted to an arbitrary punishment . his majesties advocat oppons the standing doom of forefaulture against veitch , and the proclamation , or act of council it self . the lords , justice-general , justice-clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , having considered the libel , pursued by his majesties advocat , against mr. robert baille of ierviswood , with my lord advocats declaration , whereby he restricts the same to the crimes not insisted on in the decreet of council formerly pronunced against the pannal : they find the same relevant as it is restricted , to infer the pain of treason , and remits the same to the knowledge of the assize , and repells the remnant defences proponed for the pannal , in respect of the decreet of council produced , bearing no such thing as is alleadged , and of the answers made by his majesties advocat thereto . assisa . the earl of strathmore . the earl of belcarras . sir george skeen , provost of aberdene . sir iames fleming , late provest of edinburgh . sir iohn ramsay of whitehill . adam hepburn of humby . andrew bruce of earleshall . iohn stuart , tutor of alpin . alexander miln of gar●in . mr. iams elies of stenhopsmilus . sir william drummond of halthornden . major andrew white , lieutennent of edinburgh-castle . mr. david grahame , sheriff of wigtoun . colin mckenzie , collector of ross. david burnet ▪ merchant . the assise lawfully sworn , no objection of the law in the contrary . his majesties advocat for probation adduced the witnesses and writs aftermentioned ; and first , walter earl of tarras . sir patrick hume procurator for the pannal , objects against the earl of tarras , that he cannot be a witness , because he is socius & particeps criminis ; and it is clear by the . chap. stat. . rob. . concerning these that are excluded from bearing of testimony that socij & participes ejusdem criminis , vel incarcerati & vinculati , cannot bear testimony : as also , the earl of tarras being presently under an inditement of high treason , and under the impressions of fear , and death , no person in his circumstances can be admitted a witness , as is not only clear from the foresaid statute , but from the common law. his majesties advocat answers , that it is an exception from that rule , both by the common law , and ours , that in the crime of lese majestie , and especially , that branch thereof , which we call a conspiracy , socius criminis may be a witnes , and which is introduced very reasonably by lawyers , to secure the common interest of mankind , which is the chief of all interests ; and because conspiracies cannot be otherwayes proved , and not to allow this manner of probation , were to allow treason , since no man can prove a plot , but he that is upon it , and how can a man object against him as a witness , whom himself trusted with his life , his fortune , and their common plot , nor is the intenting of the lybel any stronger qualification , since every man that is socius criminis , is under the same impression , and it would rather seem the greater and nearer apprehensions a man has of death , he will be the more sincere and faithful ; nor has the earl of tarras , nor did he ever seek any security , in order to his deponing . and this has been constantly , and latlie , conform to the common law , as may be seen in the hundreds of citations set down by mascard , de probationibus , vol. . conclus . . num . and the contrary citations prove only , that regularly socius criminis cannot be a witnes . sir patrick hume replyes , that the statutes of robert the first is opponed , and non est distinguendum ubi lex non distinguit , and not only was he socius criminis , which is acknowledged , but he is incarceratus , and lying under an indytment of high treason , and has thrown himself on the kings mercy , and it is not proper he should be a witness , seeing he is in the kings mercy , who may give him his life or not , and there was never a person in these circumstances , that ever was admitted a witness . mr. walter pringle adds , that the earl of tarras , is not only in the case of a person who stands indyted for high-treason ; but must be look'd upon , as a person condemned for the said cryme , seeing he fully , and amply confest the cryme : & confessus habetur pro convicto , and never any lawyer asserted , that damnatus criminis loesae majestatis could be admitted as a witnes , and there is nothing more clear , then that by the common law , and the law of all nations , this objection ought to be sustained , for the civil law is clear , leg . . cod . de testibus and matheus in his title de probationibus , cap. de testibus , doth assert positivlie , that the cryme of lese majestie , heresie , and generally all these crymes quae sine sociis non possunt facile admitti , are not excepted . and he asserts , that the lawyers , viz. gomesius , & decianus , who are of another opinion , do acknowledge , nominatum a reo damnandum non esse , and that they contravert only , an nominatio rei ●it indicium sufficiens ad torquendum nominatum . sir george lockhart repeats , and oppons the answer , and the cryme lybelled , being a conspiration of treason , which of it's own nature is manadged , and caryed on by secrecie and contrivance ; and which is only known to the complices of the treason , and which cannot be commited sine sociis , the law of this kingdom , and of all nations , do allow socios criminis to be testes habiles , and not only are they admitted in the case of such conjurations , but generally in omnibus criminibus exceptis , amongst which the crime of perduellion , and lese majestie is the chief , and it is absolutly impossible , that plots , and conspirations of treason can be otherways proven , then per socios , and such as are participes criminis , and which is the common opinion of all lawyers , as may appear by farin . quest : . and the authorities cited by him , and which is the inviolable practique of this kingdom : and as to that pretence , that the earl of tarras is under a process of treason , and has submitted to his majesties mercy , and that confessus habetur pro convicto , it imports nothing , and infers no more then that he is socius criminis , and is still a habil witnes , as to conjuration of treason socius criminis hoc ipso , that it is acknowledged , or proven , being still under the hazard of process , or condemnation , which law regards not in regard of the secrecie involved in the nature of the crime , that either witnesses neque actu neque habitu , can be present , so that the objection amounts to no less then that conjurations of treason cannot at all be proven : and as to the law cited from the majestie , it imports no more then that the objection regulariter procedit , in crimes , which of their own nature are not perdifficilis probationis , and are not inter crimina excepta such as the cryme of conspiracy and treason is . mr. williom fletcher oppons the objection , and reply , and further adds , that albeit crimen loesae majestatis be reckoned inter crimina excepta , and so have some priviledge ▪ as to the qualification of witnesses , yet it cannot be denyed , but there are some objections competent against witness adduced for proving conspiracies , and treason , verbi causa , that a witnes is a capital enemy , or that he is sub potestate accusatoris , and the objection now pleaded , being taken complexlie , viz. that the earl of tarras is not only sucius criminis , but also , that he is publico judicio reus , upon the same crime , and that as means to procure his majesties savour , he has submitted himself , and come in his majesties mercy , by an acknowledgment of the cryme , before the dyet of citation , he is obnoxious to a most just objection , viz. that he is sub potestate , and by the submission , and confession , his life and estate is now in his majesties hands , so that he is not only in the case of a reus confessus , but in the case of a witnes , who does absolutely depend upon his majesties advocate the pursuer ; and as a private accuser , could not adduce his own servants to be witnesses , because they are ●estes domestici , and depend upon him , so far less ought a witnes to be adduced , who not only depends , as to his estate , but as to his life , and the law gives a very good reason , and which is mentioned by paulus , lib. . receptarum sententiarum , cap. . parag . ult . in these words . de se conf●ssu● , non est audiendus ut testis , ne alienam salutem in dubium deducat qui de sua desperavit ; and as to the pretence that a conjuration is a cryme so occult , that it must either be proven by such witnesses , or otherways the guilty person will escape . it is answered , that in this case , his majesties advocate had an easie remedie , ●or he might have pursued the pannal , before he pursued the witness , and the terror and apprehension of the event of a process for treason cannot be constructed otherways , then to have influence upon the deposition of the witnes ; and as to the citation out of farina●ius , it is only in the case o● ●ocius ●riminis , but when he comes to treat de ●este accusatio vel carcerato . quest. . articulo to . he sayes , regula sit in accusato quod is pendent● accusatione à testimonio repellitur ▪ and be the d. rule of the same ar●icle , he sayes , it is a principle quod carceratus testimonium ferre prohibetur , and he gives this reason , quia praesumitur , quod falsum testimonium diceret pro aliquo qui ei promiserit se liberare a vinculo , and limits this rule , that he must be carceratus propter crimen . sir patrick hume adds , that it is a certain principle , that any person that is guilty infamia juris , cannot be a witness , no more than a person that is convict , and condemned of treason ; and if he were convict , and condemned of treason , he could not be a witness , even in the case of treason : so neither can the earl of tarras in this case be received a witness , for he being adduced a witness after he received his indi●ment , and confessed the crime , is equivalent , as if he had been actuall convict ; and whatever may be pretended , that testes infames may be admit●ed ; yet it was never asserted by any lawyer , that a person convict of treason can be admitted a witness . the lords repelled the objection against the earl of tarras , and ordains him to be received a witness . walter earl of tarras , aged fourty years , married , purged , and sworn ; being interrogat , if about the time that sir iohn cochran , and commissar monro got their commission from the carolina company for london , the pannal mr. robert baillie of ierviswood did not desire the deponent to speak to commissar monro , to try if he could get him the ●aid pannal added to that commission , depones affirmative . being interro●at , if the said ierviswood , the pannal , did not tell the deponent that he was resolved to go to london however upon his own expenses , and that his and their going about the carolina bussiness , was but a pretence , and a blind ; but that the true design was , to push foreward the people of england who could do nothing but talk , to go more effectually about their bussiness , depones affirmative . depones that the pannal did settle a correspondence with the deponent whereby he was to give an account to the deponent of what should pass betwixt the countrey party in england , and the scots men there : and on the other hand , the deponent was to write to him what occurred here ; depones that the pannal did say to the deponent , if the king would suffer the parliament of england to sit , and pass the bill of seclusion , that that was the only way to secure the protestant religion . depones that the pannal said to him , that the king might be induced to do so , if the parliament would take sharp or brisk measures with him , or the like . depones these words were spoke to him by the pannal ▪ since the holding of the last session of this current parliament ; and before the pannal and commissar monro went for london . depons that after the pannal went to london , he did give the deponent an account by letters , that things were in great disorder there , and that he hoped there would be effectual courses taken to remeid them . depones that mr. robert martin did come to mr. pringle of torwoodlies house in may . or thereby , and brought a letter to the deponents lady unsubscribed , but the deponent knows it was ierviswoods hand-writing , who was then at london , and that mr. martin told the deponent , that things in england were in great disorder , and like to come to a hight , and that the countrey party were considering on methods for securing the protestant religion . and that archibald , sometime earl of argile , was to get ten thousand pounds sterling , whereas thirty thousand pounds sterling was sought by the scotsmen at london , which was to be sent over to holland to provide arms ; and that the late earl of argile was to land with these armes in the west-highlands of scotland , and that the deponents friend ierviswood the pannal , was to be sent over with the money . depones that philiphaugh and he went to gallowshiels house , where they met with polwort and gallowshiels , and that it was talked amongst them there , that in case those in england should rise in arms , that it was necessary in that case , that so many as could be got on the borders should be in readiness to deal with straglers and seize upon horses , and that thereafter they should joyn with those t●at were in arms on the borders of england . depons that in the case foresaid , it was said , it was convenient the castle of stirling , berwick , and some other strengths should be seiz'd upon ; and it was likewise spoke amongst them , that some persons should be employed to inquire what arms was in that countrey . depons , that it was spoke then , that the best time for argyle was to land in the west when there was a stur in england , or scotland , or words to that purpose . depons , that every one desired another to speak to such particular persons as they could trust , by letting a word fall indirectly upon supposition , in case of the rising in england concerning the affair for preparing of them : and that he was told by philiphaugh thereafter , that there was a word and sign to be used amongst them , viz. the sign was by loosing a button on the breast , and that the word was harmony . depons , the pannal spoke to the deponent to advertise torwoodlie , that he might acquaint mr. william veitch a forfault traitor , who was in northumberland , that he might keep himself close , and be on his guard , lest he should be catch'd ; which was since the pannal was prisoner in the tolbooth of edinburgh . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , tarras , linlithgow . i. p. d. alexander monro of bear-crofts , aged fourty five years , or thereby ; solutus , solemnly sworn and purg'd . depons , that the earl of tarras proposed to the deponent , that ierviswood might be made one of the commissioners for the affair of carolina , for that he could not safely stay at home ; and that the deponents answer was that he had no interest in the affair , and so could not be a commissioner . depons , that the pannal did wait for the deponent at wooller , and did go alongst with him to london , and that by the way he heard him regrate his own hazard and others , because of blackwoods sentence ; and that he heard him regrate the hazard our laws , and liberties , and the protestant religion were in . depons , that the pannal spoke to the deponent and others , more then once at london for getting of money from the english to be sent to the late earl of argile , for bringing home arms for the said earls use , as he understood , for carrying on an insurrection , and rebellion in scotland . depons , that at the time libelled , in ierviswoods chamber in london , mr. william veitch a forfault traitor was present ; and that sir iohn cochran did at that meeting expressly speak of money to be sent to argile for bringing home arms for invading the kingdom of scotland ; and that at another occasion he heard some of them say , that there would be twenty thousand men in scotland who would assist the rebellion , and that he heard sir iohn cochran and ierviswood speaking of it , but cannot be positive which of the two said it . depons , that at the meeting he heard ierviswood speak , but did not hear him oppose that treasonable proposal , or contradict the overture proposed by sir iohn cochran . depons , that mr. robert martin was sent down from that meeting which was at ierviswoods chamber , to scotland , to try what the people of scotland would do for their own safety : and that it was understood that the people of scotland should not rise till there should be a rising in england , and that the commission was granted to mr. robert martin by all the persons present , whereof ierviswood was one , and that there were present the lord melvill , sir iohn cochran , cessnocks elder and younger , mr. william carstares , mr. william veitch , ierviswood , and the deponent ; and depons they did contribute money for mr. martins journey . depons , that at his return he meeting with the deponent , told him , that matters were in that condition in scotland , and that the countrey was in such a condition as little would kindle the fire in order to the rebellion . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , alexander monro , linlithgow , i. p. d. james murray of philiphaugh , aged . years , married , purged and sworn , produces ●our leaves of depositions , emitted by him before the lords of the secret committie , and all written and subscribed with his own hand , which being publickly read , in presence of the justices , and assize , he adheres thereto , in all points , whereof the tenot follows . upon the day of may , . upon a letter from mr. pringle of torwoodlie , i came to his house in the morning , and he presently led me to a chamber , where i found mr robert martin , who was lately come from london , with whom we stayed a little , and discoursed of the news , and about the present condition , and temper of england , and in particular of london , which mr. martin said , was much irritated through some attemps upon their priviledges , either as to the concern of the sheriffs , or their charter , but that all honest men were of good heart and very brisk , and after some general discourses to this purpose , torwoodlie , and i left him ▪ and walked out a little , and he told me , he was expecting the e. of tarras presently , for he had sent to him ; and mr. martin had a letter to him from ierviswood , then he told me that there were great matters in agitation at london , and that mr. martin had come down with a commission from our friends there , ( i do not remember he named any ) but that i behoved not to expect , he would impart his instructions to me , for he was to communicat them only to polwart and himself , ( at least for these shyres ) and they were to pitch on such as they thought fit to intrust with the affair , whereupon he assured me , that he had great confidence in me , and his kindness to me oblidged him to send for me , to acquaint me that matters were now come to a crisis , and that he had reason to think england would shortly draw to arms , and stand by them , till they were satisfied anent the bill of exclusion , and what other security they could propose for the protestant religion , and their liberties , and that it was no project of any inconsiderable party but a design through the kingdom , and that many of the finest men , and of the greatest interest and credit there , had adjusted almost every thing necessar for the purpose , and had concerted matters with our friends there , in order to concurrence from this , and had agreed to advance money for furnishing arms here , ( i do not remember he told me more particulars at this time ) but said , polwart would be at gallow-shiels that night , and it would be necessar that the e. of tarras and i should confer with him fully , on the business , about this time the e. of tarras lighted , and torwoodlie having left us for a little time , being gone to bring mr. martin ; the e. of tarras asked me , what news , i told him of mr. martins being there , but that he had given me no account of the design of his down-coming , which perhaps he would acquaint him with , but by what i had heard from torwoodlie , i understood it to be , to engadge us to rise in arms shortly , whereat the e. of tarras hummed , and said , he would look ere he leapt , such a leap , or some such expressions , presently mr. martin came , and the e. of tarras and he retired a little , after the reading an letter , he gave him , the contents whereof was ( as the e. of tarras informed me ) only an order from ierviswood , to deliver some money to the bearer , which he had left with him , and the e. of tarras called for his servant , and bad him bring up the money ; in the mean time , torwoodlie asked me , if i had acquainted the e. of tarras with what he spoke to me , and i told him , i had let something of it fall to him , but it was not to be thought , that persons of sense and quality would engadge in such designs at random ; so torwoodlie said , that ( though mr. martin would not commune with us upon his commission directly ) yet he thought it would be fit , we conferred , and without taking notice of his commission , discoursed of things upon suppositions , and as our own privat notions ▪ abstract from any prospect of a present design , so after dinner , we four went to a chamber , and after some general discourses , of the discontents of both kingdoms , these suppositions following were discoursed ( and as i remember ) mr. martin started them all , or the most part ) viz. what if the countrey party in england should have thoughts of going to arms ( whereof he knew nothing but only supposed such a thing , for discoursing a little freely , and to know our sentiments , what we thought could be expected here in such a case ) would it not be expedient to have a settled correspondence betwixt that party there and here , and might not matters be so adjusted , that both kingdoms should draw out in one day , and might not as many be expected to undertake in these shires , and about edinburgh , as would serve to surprize , and seize our rulers ( i do not remember any named , but the then chancellour and treasurer ) and some to joyn with these on the english borders , to assist them to surprize berwick ; and if for that effect , any horse , or dragoons , that should be in the bounds might not be surprized , that their horse and arms might be gotten to furnish the country people , and stirling castle ; and if argile should at the same time land in the west , and raise that countrey , would not these measures contribute much to the advancement and security of the interest of that party here , since thereby the government would be disordered , and such steps would encourage all that had an inclination to the countrey party , to draw to them frankly , and scar many of the other side to act against them , and so they might have leasure to joyn from all places ; and might it not be expected , there would be as many in this kingdom , as would be able to deal with the forces here , at least divert them from troubling england . this is the sum , as i remember , of what was proposed , and discourst of , though i cannot distinctly say , it was in this method , and expression , nor was all moved at once , but droped now and then , as the discourse seem'd to give rise to it ; and though i cannot fully re●count all that was spoke on these heads , and tell distinctly , what this and that man said ; yet i remember these following answers were giving , and ( as i judged ) acquiesced to by the whole company ; and they were certainly the e. of tarras , his sentiments and mine , and every one that spoke , used this or some such precaution , that if they were concerned , or to give counsel in any such case , ( as they were not , &c. ) . as to the settling a correspondence , it was confest to be very convenient for those of a common interest ; but the present circumstances of affairs were such ( as we thought , ) that none could be found here who was fit to mannage it , and would undertake it . . as to the trysting at the same time , it could not be done without the devulging the design to all ranks of people , which none would undertake , except these already in desperat circumstances , and they could not have generally much influence . . the thing was not at all adviseable for this kingdom , since if any of englands own measures miscarried , they would not stur for any such trust ; and the spring of their motions being always at london , there might happen an interruption near the appointment , whereof these here could have no timous notice , and so might keep tryst , whereby they would be exposed a prey ; and if they should subsist any time , or prevail ( which was hardly possible ) the multitude that must be imployed , are tainted with such wild and unruly principles , that if once they got the sword in their hands , they would never be brought to order without a greater force to over-awe them ; neither would any expectation of argiles landing , be a just ground for such a tryst , considering the uncertainty of sea-voyages ; and if argile were to be the head , undoubtedly many people would conclude that he were to be suspected of private designs , and that restoring him , might lay him aside : as also , that dispair might blind his usual prudence , and prompt him to unsolid , and undigested methods ; and so it was to be expected , that few of the gentry ( except such as he had special influence on , or such as were under hard circumstances ) could embarque with him . . as to the surprising rulers , &c. it was inveigh'd against , as an action not to be thought of amongst protestants ( especially when the very design of it was pretended , to secure that religion , which taught its professors to abhor and detest such principles as popish , yea un-christian ) since it could not be effectuat without blood-shed of people , secure in peace , which being by all approven , divines and casuists condemned as unlawful , and meer assassination ; it was not to be doubted , that as such a practice would cast a blot upon the whole affair , and quite take off any pretence of defensive arms , so it would scar many from joyning . these things were reasoned again and again : but i do not remember there was any formal conclusion made , but the discourse was let fall ; and mr. martin told us , if any of us had a mind for a suit of armour , he could provide as many as we pleased , from one who had made a great many lately , to honest men at london , of a new fashion , very light , and at an easie rate ; so torwoodlie and i gave him our measures , e. of tarras told he had a suit already ; then torwoodlie said to the e. of tarras and me , we would meet polwort at gallowsheils , and desired we might commun with him , anent what we had been discoursing , so we hasted away , that if possible , we might both get home that night , it being saturnday , and we unfurnished , for staying abroad , and torwoodlie whispered me just as i was mounting ( as i think ) that he was not clear we should commun before gallowshiels , for he was sometimes too much good-fellow , or the like ; so the e. of tarras and i rod away together , and upon the way we were both of opinion , that the suppositions we had discoursed of , were in effect propositions , and resolv'd , if they were insisted on by polwort , as we suspected , we would adhere to the former answer , and would undertake nothing in these methods ; when we came to gallowsheils , the laird was abroad , and polwort was not come , so we had thoughts to go away , being both damped with what had passed , and inclining to be free of farder medling ; but the lady would by no means hear of our going till her husband came , who , she assured us , was about the doors , and she having sent to call him , he would be in presently ; yet it was so late ere he came , that the e. of tarras could hardly have day enough to go home with ; so gallowsheils would not let him go , and he would not stay , unless i stay'd , so we both stayed , and not being resolv'd to discourse with gallowsheils on what passed , we we it to the tavern , on pretence i might call the baillie , and seek horses or lime , and stay'd there till polwort came ( which seemed unknown to gallowsheils ) then we returned to gallowsheils house , and after supper polwort whispered the e. of tarras and me , and enquired if we had seen mr. martin ; and we having told him we had , he enquired , if we were free to commun on the affair before gallowsheils , we told , as he thought fit , for we could trust him ; then he whispered gallowsheils , and ( as i understood afterwards ) asked if he was free to commune on matters of great secrecy and importance with that company , to which he assented , then we sat down closs together , and as i remember ▪ polwort began the discourse ; but since i am not able to follow exactly the method of our conference , or keep the very expressions used , or repeat all that was spoke , or to tell distinctly what was every mans part of the discourse ; i shall set down the heads , and most remarkable passages thereof , that i remember in some articles following ; . polwort signified that he was credibly informed ( but i do not remember he named his informer ) that the countrey party in england would draw to the fields shortly , as he heard before lambass , wherewith gallowsheils seem'd visibly surprized ; and being asked , if his heart fail'd him already , he said he did love it better truly to be walking in his own parks in peace , and quiet , than to be medling in such matters ; however he assured the company , that if there came any troublesome world , he would joyn with them firmly ; and the e. of tarras said , he wondred to hear of any such resolution in england , for he took it for a principle amongst that party there , that they should make no stir in the kings life ( which the whole company owned to be their opinion and desire ) because that might strengthen the dukes interest ; and he suspected it was the project of the common-wealths men , with whom he believed , few scots gentlemen would joyn ; and he was almost perswaded the d. of monmouth would not concur in any rising during the kings life , to which it was answered by polwort , that he had indeed heard that principle had been generally agreed to , but it seem'd they found , they behoved either to do their business now , or lay aside hopes of doing it hereafter , which might be , that if the charter of london were let fall , they would not only lose all safe opportunity of digesting matters ; but a great part of their strength , and he heard all things were concerted mutually , betwixt monmouths friends and the heads of the commonwealth party ; and tho he heard monmouth was shy on that account , yet it was hop'd he would engage , for otherways he would be deserted by that party . . polwort told us the suppositions above-written as overtures concerted betwixt our friends at london , and the principal men of that party there ; so the e of tarras and i renewed our former answers also above-written , and maintained them with all our vigour , wherein gallowsheils joyned forwardly with us ; and polwort asserted , we went on very good grounds , and he was fully of our opinion , if things were entire but referr'd it to be considered , whether it were better to comply with some of these methods , tho not so proper and justifiable as were to be wish'd , then to disappoint the business totally , which might be of the best consequence to all the party , yet we did not condescend as i remember to undertake any of these methods . and there was a further argument adduced against the trysting above-written , viz. that it was talked there was a day appointed in england latly in shaftsberry's time , which did not hold , so they were not to be relyed upon . . it was proposed to be considered what methods were most proper in the companies opinion for scotland to follow in case of englands rising , whereanent it was said , that all that could be expected or desired from scotland , was , that upon the certain news of englands being in the fields , those in the southern shires who would own that party , should presently rise , and ( how soon they could get as many conven'd as would be able to deal with stragling parties , or any sudden rising in the countrey ) march to joyn them , and that it would be fit these in the northern shires of england waited near the borders for such , and that they had officers trysted there to command , and that then it would be seasonable for argile to land in the west , and these parties on the borders might divert the forces till he had time to put himself in a posture . these things seem'd to be the sentiments of the whole company , but were not finally determined till the opinion of others who were to be communed with by polwort were known : and it was represented , there behoved not to be any wilful and obstinate adhering to our own thoughts of things , ( but an mutual condescendance to others concerned , ) otherwise it were not possible to bring a publick design to any good issue . . all the company seem'd to agree , that they should undertake nothing or move in that affair , till they had a full and certain account what england proposed , what methods they resolved to follow there , who were to be their heads , and that if they design'd any attempt on the kings person , or overturning monarchy , they would not be forward or clear to joyn : and it being here insinuated , that the most they could do ( at least for which there could be any plausible pretence to justifie ) was to draw together , and without any act of hostility , send addresses to his majesty for redress of the present abuses of the government , and for obtaining sufficient security against the hazard they apprehended to their religion and liberties . it was said by polwort that he was apt to think , that was their very design , for he had heard it was generally believed by that party in england , that if once they were in a body , the king would be prevailed with to quite the duke , to be tryed for popery , correspondence with france , and accession to the popish plot , and then if the king were once free from the influence of the dukes counsels , they were confident he might be moved to reform their abuses , and secure their religion and liberties for the future to their contentment . . it was resolved , that till we got the foresaid account from england , and were satisfied thereanent , and knew others here ( who were to be communed with ) their sentiements of what methods were most proper for us , in case we should undertake , we should not meddle further ; only it was left to the earl of tarras and me , if we thought fit to acquaint sir william scot younger with some of the matter of this conference overly , without taking notice of our informers , or such an conference ; and it was recommended to all to be enquiring ( at such as they had some trust in ) indirectly about the affection of our neighbours , and what arms there was amongst them ; that if we should get an satisfying account , and resolve to joyn , we might know where to seek men and arms suddenly : here it was said by polwort , as i think , that if the e. of tarras , torwoodlie , gallowsheils , and i once took horse , he thought the most part of the west end of tiviotdale and selkirk shire would soon come to us , especially , when they heard england was risen , then we trysted to meet there against midsummer fair , betwixt and which the forsaid account was expected , but in case it came to any of our hands sooner , we promised to advertise the rest , that we might meet , presently , if the case required ; this is the substance and sum of what passed at the forsaid conference , that i can now remember ; but i remember , i was likewise told these following particulars in privat , by polwart , or torwoodlie , ( which of them , i cannot distinctly tell ) the day of the forsaid conference , or within a short time after . . that polwart keeped the correspondence with our friends at london , i remember not positively of any of them that was named , to be on the entrigue there , except my lord melvil , sir iohn cochran , ierviswood , and commissar monro ( for i hardly knew any of the rest ) and as i think , commissar monro was call'd his correspondent there . . that the money to be advanced by the english partie to scotland was ready , when mr. martin came from london , and it was expected , that within few days after , it would be dispatched with some confident to holland , ( whither by bills , or in cash , i cannot say ) it was call'd ten thousand pound sterlin , and was to be imployed ( as i was told ) by that confident , at argyles sight , for buying arms , providing ships to transport them with argyle , to the west here , and such other charges . . that how soon our friends at london got notice of the safe arrival , of the confident forsaid , and all other things were finally concluded there ( which was expected would be about the middle of iune , as i remember ) they would come home , and as they passed , would give them , or one of them , an particular account of all resolutions taken to be communicat to the rest , that it was not to be expected by letters , that behoved to be under figures , and dark expressions , and as i remember , they were written as it were about the carolina business , or some houshold furniture , as i was told , for i never remember i saw any letter , either direct to london , or sent from it on that head . . i was told there was a sign , and a word agreed on by that party , so that men might know with whom they might use freedom , the word , as i remember was harmony , and the sign , the opening two buttons in the breast coat and shutting them presently ; this i communicat to the earl of tarras , but does not mind i ever saw it used , except when i visited park-hay here in town , about the end of iune ; we discoursing a little freely , he asked if i had the word and sign of the carolina men , and i having given them , he said something to this purpose , that he was afraid that the carolina business did not go well , for there had been some of the managers expected here ( as i think he named ierviswood or commissar monro ) these eight days past , but there was none come , nor could he learn that any of their friends had heard from them for several posts . polwart , torwoodlie , and i met at gallowsheils , on midsummer fair , but i mind nothing passed but private whisperings . dated september . . and subscrived thus , iames murray . edinburgh , december ▪ . the deposition above-written being read to the said iames murray of philiphaugh , in presence of the justices and assizers , he adheres thereto in all points upon oath . sic subscribitur , james murray . linlithgow , i. p. d. the said iames murray further depons , that at their meeting at gallowsheils , it was resolved , that they should keep up their cess unpayed till their next meeting at midsummer , which was to be at gallowsheils , and should deal with all these they had influence upon to do the like , and that upon the supposition mentioned in his oath given in . it was spoke amongst them that the troupers horses should be seized upon , when they were grasing . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , james murray . linlithgow , i. p. d. hvgh scot of gallowsheils , aged . years , married , purged , &c. and sworn . depons , that the earl of tarras and philiphaugh did come to the deponents house , in may , . and polwart came likewise there , where there were discourses and proposals , that if the english would rise in arms , their friends in the south shires should rise with them ; and that they should seize the horses belonging to the kings troops where they grased ; and the town of berwick , and the castle of stirling : and likewise it was there discoursed anent the late earl of argiles coming to invade scotland , but because of the uncertainty of sea voyages , there was not much stress laid upon it . depons , it was also proposed , that some of the south countrey whom they trusted in should be acquainted with it , and that endeavours should be used to learn what arms was in the countrey . depons , there was some such discourse there , as that the earl of tarras , philiphaugh , torwoodlie , polwart , and some others should draw to horse with the first when the rising should be in readiness , that it might be expected that the south parts of teviotdale and selkirk shire would joyn with them . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , hugh scot. linlithgow , i. p. d. his majesties advocat produc'd other depositions , emitted by gallowsheils before the lords of the secret committee , whereof the tenor follows . edinburgh , the of september . gallowsheils depons , that the e. of tarras and philiphaugh , being in his house in may . discoursed of an intended rising in england , and of proposals made to scots men , to rise with them , and of london in particular , and that polwort was present at that meeting , and told he was sure the englishmen intended so , and that it was discoursed at that meeting amongst them , that it were fit to seize berwick and stirling ; and that it was talked amongst them of bringing the duke of york to tryal , and tha● the king would abandon him . sic subscribitur , hugh scot. perth , cancel . queensberry george mckenzie . io. drummond . george mckenzie . edinburgh , october . . sederunt . lord chancellour . lord secretary . lord president . lord advocat . the laird of gallowsheils , prisoner in the tolbuith of edinburgh , being call'd and examin'd upon oath , depons , that in the moneth of may . the e. of tarras , hume of polwort elder , and laird of philiphaugh , came to the deponents house , himself being absent , at his coming home , they were speaking of the security of the protestant religion ; and of a party in england , who would secure , or seize the king or duke ; and that if any should rise in arms to defend them , or to rescue the king and duke : there was another party who would rise in arms against them , it was proposed , that some countrey-men should be spoken to , to try their resolutions , and that the resolutions , of england should be told them , to see if they would concur . but the deponent does not remember that this proposition was approven , or undertaken to be done by any present ; nor does he remember who manag'd the discourse . it was likewise propos'd , to seize the officers of state , especially the chancellour and thesaurer , and the said , sir iohn cochran was to come to the west from england , for advancement of the design ; and that the earl of argile was to land in the west highlands , and to raise that countrey . of these matters , all these who were present discoursed , as of an affair that they were agitating , and wherein themselves were particularly concerned , though at that time they did not conclude what their carriage should be ; the reason why the deponent cannot be more particulars is , because he was sometimes going out , and sometimes walking up and down the room ; and though the deponent cannot be positive of the very words ; yet he is positive they were either these words , or words to that purpose . sic subscribitur , hugh scot. perth cancellarius . edinburgh , december . . hvgh scot of gallowsheils being solemnly sworn in presence of the justices and assize , adheres to the depositions within , and above-written in all points , sic subscribitur . hugh scot. linlithgow , i. p. d. his majesties advocat in fortification of the former probation , adduces the printed copy of mr. william carstares depositions , emitted before the officers of state , and other lords of privy council , and leaves the same to the assise , and uses it as an adminicle of probation ; for though it was capitulat , that he should not be made use of as a witness ; yet it was agreed , that the deposition should be published : and likewise produces the principal deposition signed by himself , and the said lords . the lords , justice-general , justice-clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , admit the paper produced as an adminicle , and refers the import thereof to the inquest , and ordains the printed paper as it is collationed , to be taken in , and considered by the inquest . sir william paterson , and mr. colin mckenzie , clerks of his majesties privy council being interrogat , if they heard mr. william carstares own the depositions read , depons they saw and heard him swear , and own the same upon oath , and they collationed the printed copie with the original formerly , and now they heard it collationed , sic subscribitur , will. paterson . colin mckenzie . the deposition of mr. william carstares , when he was examined before the lords of secret committee , given in by him , and renewed upon oath ; upon the . of december . in presence of the lords of his majesties privy council . edinburgh castle , september . . mr. william carstares being examined upon oath , conform to the condescention given in by him , and on the terms therein-mentioned ; depons , that about november , or december . iames stuart , brother to the laird of cultness , wrot a letter to him from holland , importing , that if any considerable sum of money could be procur'd from england , that something of importance might be done in scotland : the which letter , the deponent had an inclination to inform shepherd in abb-church-lane , merchant in london of ; but before he could do it , he wrot to mr. stuart above-nam'd to know from him , if he might do it ; and mr. stuart having consented , he communicat the said letter to mr. shepherd , who told the deponent that he would communicat the contents of it to some persons in england ; but did at that time name no body , as the deponent thinks : sometime thereafter , mr. shepherd told the deponent , that he had communicat the contents of the letter above-named , to colonel sidney , and that colonel danvers was present , and told the deponent , that colonel sidney was averse from imploying the late earl of argile , or medling with him , judging him a man too much affected to the royal family , and inclin'd to the present church-government ; yet mr. shepherd being put upon it by the deponent , still urg'd , that one might be sent to the earl of argile ; but as mr. shepherd told him , he was suspected upon the account of his urging so much ; yet afterwards he press'd , without the deponents knowledge , that the deponent being to go to holland however , might have some commission to the earl of argile , which he having inform'd the deponent of , the deponent told him , that he himself would not be concern'd , but if they would send another , he would introduce him ; but nothing of this was done : upon which the deponent went over , without any commission from any body , to holland , never meeting with iames stuart above-named : he was introduc'd to the earl of argile , with whom he had never before conversed , and did there discourse what had past betwixt mr. shepherd and him ; and particularly , about remitting of money to the said earl from england ; of which the said mr. stuart had written to the deponent , namely of pounds sterling ; and of the raising of horse and dragoons ; and the securing the castle of edinburgh , as a matter of the greatest importance : the method of doing this was proposed by the deponent , to be one hour , or thereby , after the relieving of the guards : but the earl did not relish this proposition , as dangerous ; and that the castles would fall of consequence , after the work abroad was done . iames stuart was of the deponents opinion for seizing the castle , because it would secure edinburgh , the magazines and arms ; as to the horse and dragoons , my lord argile was of opinion , that without them nothing was to be done ; and that if that number were rais'd in england to the said earl , he would come into scotland with them ; and that there being so few horse and dragoons to meet them , he judg'd he might get the country without trouble , having such a standing body for their friends to rendezvous to ; and the said earl said he could show the deponent the conventient places for landing , if he understood ; and as the deponent remembers , where the ships could attend . the deponent remembers not the names of the places . the deponent spoke to the lord stairs ; but cannot be positive that he nam'd the affair to him , but found him shy : but the earl of argile told him , he thought stairs might be gain'd to them : and that the earl of lowdo●n being a man of good reason , and disobliged , would have great influence upon the countrey , and recommended the deponent to major h●lms with whom the deponent had some acquaintance before , and had brought over a letter from him to the earl of argyle ; but the deponent had not then communicate any thing to the said holms , iames steuart laid down a way of correspondence by cyphers and false names , and sent them over to holms , and the deponent , for their use ( which cyphers and names , are now in the hands of his majesties officers , as the deponent supposes , ) and did desire the deponent earnestly to propose the . pound sterling abovenamed to the party in england , and did not propose any less ; for as the earl told the deponent , he had particularly calculate the expence for arms , ammunition , &c. but iames steuart said , that if some less could be had , the earl would content himself , if better might not be ; but the earl always said , that there was nothing to be done without the body of horse and dragoons above-mentioned . during the time of the deponent his abode in holland , tho he had several letters from shepard , yet there was no satisfactory account , till some time after the deponent parted from the earl of argyle , and was making for a ship at rotterdam to transport himself to england . iames steuart wrot to him that there was hopes of the money . the next day after the deponent came to england , he met with sir iohn cochran , who , with commissar monro , and ierviswood , was at london before he came over ; and depons , that he knows not the account of their coming , more then for the perfecting the transaction about carolina : and having acquainted sir iohn cochran with the earls demands of the pound sterling and the . horse and dragoons , sir iohn carried him to the lord russel , to whom the deponent proposed the affair , but being an absolute stranger to the deponent , had no return from him at that time ; but afterwards having met him accidently at mr. shepards ho●se , where he the lord russel had come to speak to shepard about the money above-named , as mr. shepard told the deponent . the deponent ( when they were done speaking ) desired to speak to the lord russel , which the lord russel did , and having reiterate the former proposition for . pound sterling , and the . horse and dragoons , he the lord russel told the deponent , they could not get so much raised at the time , but if they had . pound to begin , that would draw people in , and when they were once in , they would soon be brought to more ; but as for the . horse and dragoons , he could say nothing at the present , for that behoved to be concerted upon the borders . the deponent made the same proposal to mr. ferguson , who was much concerned in the affair , and zealous for the promoving of it . this mr. ferguson had in october or november before , as the deponent remembers in a conversation with the deponent in cheapside , or the street somewhere thereabout , said , that for the saving of innocent blood , it would be necessary to cut off a few , insinuating the king and duke , but cannot be positive whether he named them or not , to which the deponent said , that 's work for our wild people in scotland , my conscience does not serve me for such things ; after which the deponent had never any particular discourse with ferguson , as to that matter ; but as to the other affair , ferguson told the deponent that he was doing what he could to get it effectuate , as particularly that he spoke to one major wildman who is not of the deponent his acquaintance . ferguson blamed always sidney , as driving designs of his own . the deponent met twice or thrice with the lord melvil , sir iohn cochran , ierviswood , commissar monro , the two cessnocks , mongomery of landshaw , and one mr. veitch , where they discoursed of money to be sent to argyle , in order to the carrying on the affair , and tho he cannot be positive the affair was named , yet it was understood by himself , and as he conceives by all present , to be for rising in arms , for rectifying the government . commissary monro , lord melvil , and the two cessnocks were against medling with the english , because they judged them men that would talk , and would not do , but were more inclined to do something by themselves , if it could be done . the lord melvil thought every thing hazardous , and therefore the deponent cannot say he was positive in any thing , but was most inclined to have the duke of monmouth to head them in scotland , of which no particular method was laid down . ierviswood , the deponent , and mr. veitch , were for taking money at one of these meetings . it was resolved , that mr. martin , late clerk to the justice court should be sent to scotland , to desire their friends to hinder the countrey from rising , or taking rash resolutions upon the account of the council , till they should see how matters went in england . the said martin did go at the charges of the gentlemen of the meeting , and was directed to the laird of polwart and torwoodlie , who sent back word that it would not be found so easie a matter to get the gentrie of scotland to concur : but afterwards in a letter to commissar monro , polwart wrote that the countrey was readier to concur then they had imagined , or something to that purpose . the deponent , as above-said , having brought over a key from holland , to serve himself and major holms : he remembers not that ever he had an axact copy of it , but that sometimes the one , sometimes the other keeped it , and so it chanced to be in his custody when a letter from the earl of argyle came to major holms , intimating , that he would joyn with the duke of monmouth , and follow his measures , or obey his directions . this mr. veitch thought fit to communicate to the duke of monmouth , and for the understanding of it was brought to the deponent , and he gave the key to mr. veitch , who as the deponent , was informed , was to give it and the letter to mr. ferguson , and he to shew it to the duke of monmouth ; but what was done in it , the deponent knows not . the deponent heard the design of killing the king and duke , from mr. shepard , who told the deponent some were full upon it . the deponent heard that aron smith was sent by those in england to call sir iohn cochran , on the account of carolina , but that he does not know aron smith , nor any more of that matter , not being concerned it it . shepard named young hamden frequently as concerned in these matters . signed at edinburgh castle , the . of september , . and renewed the of the same month. william carstares . perth cancell . i. p. d. edinburgh castle september . mr. william carstares being again examined , adheres to his former deposition , in all the parts of it , and depones he knows of no correspondence betwixt scotland and england , except by martin before named ; for those gentlemen to whom he was sent , were left to follow their own methods . veitch sometimes , as the deponent remembers , stayed sometimes an nicolson , stabler's house , at london-wall ; sometimes with one widow hardcastle in more-fields . the deponent did communicate the design on foot to doctor owen , mr. griffil , and mr. meed , at stepney , who all concurred in the promoting of it , and were desirous it should take effect ; and to one mr. freth in the temple , councellor at law , who said that he would see what he could do in reference to the money , but there having gone a report , that there was no money , to be raised , he did nothing in it ; nor does the deponent think him any more concerned in the affair . nelthrop frequently spoke to the deponent of the money to be sent to argyle , whether it was got or not , but the deponent used no freedom with him in the affair . goodenough did insinuate once , that the lords were not inclined to the thing , and that before , they would see what they could do in the city . the deponent saw mr. ferguson , and mr. rumsay , lurking after the plot broke out , before the proclamation , having gone to ferguson , in the back of bishopsgate-street , at some new building , whether he was directed by ierviswood , who was desirous to know how things went. rumsay was not o● the deponent his acquaintance before , but they knew as little of the matter as the deponent . this is what the deponent remembers , and if any thing come to his memory , he is to deliver it in betwixt the first of october . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. william carstares perth , cancell . i. p. d. at edinburgh , the . of december , . these foregoing depositions , subscribed by mr. william carstares deponent , and by the lord chancellor , were acknowledged on oath by the said mr. william carstares , to be his true depositions ; and that the subscriptions were his , in presence of us under subscribers . william carstares . perth cancell . david falconer . queensberry . george mckenzie , athol . his majesties advocat for further probation , adduces the examinations of mr , shepard , taken before sir leolin ienkins secretary of state for england , with the information or deposition of mr. zachary bourn , relating to the plot , sign'd by him and secretary ienkins , of which depositions the tenors follow . the examination of thomas shepard of london merchant , taken upon oath before the right honourable sir leolin jenkins knight , his majesties paincipal secretary of state , the . day of december . . the deponent saith , that ferguson told him on , or about the moneth of april last , that an insurrection was intended both in england and in scotland , and that for the settling that affair betwixt the two nations , mr. baillie , mr. monro , sir iohn cochran , sir hugh and sir george campbels , with some others ( whose names this deponent heard not ) were come to london . that the deponent had some acquaintance with mr. baillie , mr. monro . and sir iohn cochran , and none at all with sir hugh and sir george campbels ; that mr. baillie told the deponent , that the earl of argile demanded thirty thousand pounds of the english to capacitat him to begin the business effectually in scotland , and that he the said baillie likewise told the deponent , that having concerted things with the lord russel and others , he the said baillie found an impossibility of raising that sum ; after which the said baillie had acquainted the deponent , that they were certainly promised ten thousand pounds , which sum was agreed to be payed into the deponents hands , in order to be remitted into holland , for the providing of arms ; and that the said baillie told the deponent at divers times , that the said sum , or at least one half of it would be payed such a day , and such a day ; and sometimes asked the deponent , if he had received any part of the said money , to which the deponent replyed that he had not , and that he the deponent scarce thought any would be payed . and the deponent also saith , that having had some little conversation with sir iohn cochran , he remembers well , that both of them did sometimes lament the delays in not paying in the money , and said , that although the said ten thousand pounds were pay'd in , they , the said sir iohn cochran and mr. monro , fear●d it would be too little ; and this deponent further sayeth not , as to any new matter . but the deponent being asked , to explain what he thought was meant by the words above-written , viz. to capacitat him ( the earl of argile ) to begin the business , he , this deponent sayeth , that he did understand by the word business , an insurrection in scotland . sic subscribitur , iurat coram . thomas shepard . l. ienkins . the information of zachary bourn of london , brewer , taken upon oath , the tenth day of december . before the right honourable mr. secretary ienkins . the informant deposeth , and sayeth , that mr. baillie set up one night , if not two , with mr. ferguson , and went several times in the evening with him to the duke of monmouth , and the chief mannagers of the conspiracy ; that ferguson told the deponent , that he the said baillie was the chief man for the scots , next to the lord argile ; that the said baillie did sit up the greatest part of one night , with the said ferguson ; at which time this deponent believeth they were busie in preparing the intended declaration , which the deponent has the more reason to believe , in as much as the said ferguson did go about to show him the deponent , such a paper , wherein the said ferguson was hindered by the coming up stairs of some person , to speak with the said ferguson , that the said ferguson told the deponent , that the main business of the said baillie , in meeting the saids conspirators , was in order to get from them the ten thousand pounds , promised for the buying of arms , for the insurrection intended in scotland . that the deponent saw mr. william carstares come often to the lodgings of the said ferguson ; but that the said ferguson never told the deponent of any discourse held by him with the said carstares : and further this deponent saith not ▪ sic subscribitur , zac. bourn . iurat coram . l. ienkins . his majesties advocate likewise produced several warrands , and papers to prove , that those depositions are sign'd by sir leolin ienkins . his majesties advocate also produced the books of adjournal , bearing mr. william veitch to be a forefault traitor , and the act of parliament whereby the forefaulture is ratified , his majesties advocat's speech to the inquest . my lords and gentlemen , you have now a conspiracy against his majesties sacred person , and royal government , so fully discover'd , that they must want reason as well as loyalty , who do not believe the discovery ; and they must be enemies to sincerity , as well as to the king , who do not acknowledge it . beside , that the councils of all the three nations , thought the proof sufficient , for indicting a general thanksgiving through all these nations ; and that the judges of england thought the same strong enough to infer forefaulture of life and estate , against some of all ranks there ; you have a discovery made here from the late e. of argiles own letters , and the confession of his own emissaries , the two surest proofs that law ever invented , or the nature of humane affairs can allow ; and i am this day to add to all this , a new s●rt of proofs in the process that i now lead against this pannal , from the confessions of noblemen and gentlemen , who have been engaged in this wicked conspiracy ; and who from a sense of their guilt , are content freely to depose against their nearest relation , and their most intimate friend , in which having thus cleared to you , that there was really such a conspiracy , i shall , in the next place , proceed to prove this pannals accession to it . it cannot be imagined , that we would willingly involve our countrey men in it , without a conviction stronger then our kindness to scotland ; nor did his majesties servants accuse this pannal , without the opinion of the ablest lawyers of the kingdom , who did , with them concur , to think that there was not the least occasion of doubting left , to the most indifferent inqueist of his guilt , after they had seriously , and with reflection , read over , and pondered the probation now laid before you . the person accused of accession to this cryme is the ring-leader of all those , who in this kingdom concurr'd with the english conspirators , as you may see by the testimonies of all who have deposed ; and it was indeed fit and just to begin with the most guilty , so that if he be not convicted , there should no man be punished for this conspiracie ; all the noise we have heard of it , is but a cheat , the kings judges have been murderers , all the witnesses have been knaves , and such as dyed for it have been martyrs . the accession charged on the pannal , is not an accidental escape , nor is it proved by witnesses , who can be suspected of unkindnes to his person , or his cause , for it is a long tract of a continued design , gone about with the greatest deliberation and concern imaginable , and proved by his nearest relations , and persons so deeply engadged in that cause , ( for which he suffers , ) that they were content with him to venture their lives and fortunes in that quarrel . he is not accused of a crime that can amount only to a single murder , though that be a dreadful cryme , but a rebellion , which was to draw upon us a civil war , that murder of murders , in which hundreths of thousands were to fall ; and to crown all , he was to 〈◊〉 ▪ and to be the 〈…〉 a rebellion , in which one of the first steps was to kill his sacred majestie , and his royal brother ; and one of the chief witnesses which i have led against him , is bourn , which bourn confessed that he was to kill the king , and who confesses the pannal sat up several nights with ferguson , the other contriver of the kings murder , and so familiar was he with him , that bourn depons , that the said pannal had been with ferguson , at the drawing of the manifesto , whereby he was not only to be an actor , but to be the justifier of that horrid villanie : and therefore bourns depons , that ferguson , ( the best judge in that case ) looked upon him as the chief man , next to argyle ; but because no man is presumed to go to such a hight , without previous inclination and motives , i shall to convince you , that this gentleman was very capable of all that was lybelled against him , remember you , that he is nephew , and son in law to the late waristoun , bred up in his family and under his tutory ; about the time of this plot it was undenyably known , and is now sufficiently proved , by two present witnesses , the earl of tarras and commissar monro , that he thought himself desperat , knowing himself to be guilty of treason by blackwoods case ; and as it 's presumable , that a man that 's guilty of one point of treason , will commit another ; so when a man is desperat as to his life and fortune , he is capable of any thing ; he was likewise animated to commit this cryme , by the intelligence he had that there was a plot in england , carryed on by men of so great parts , fortune and influence , and by the too probable hopes , that they would get all the western shires to joyn with them here , because of the common guilt , in which they had engadged themselves , by their late extravagances , they made an account of an assistance of twenty thousand men ; and by philiphaughs deposition , that these gentlemen expected the concurse of the southern-shires ; and thus , i am to prove to you a cryme , which is in it self , so probable and liklie , that it should need little probation , tho i have adduced for your conviction sufficient evidences , albeit the cryme were in it self very unliklie . the crymes which i hope i have proved , are , that ierviswood the pannal transacted for money to the late earl of argyl , a declared traitor . . that he designed to raise a rebellion . . that he intercommuned with the earl of argyl and mr. veitch declared traitors . . that he was present , whe●● it ●as treated ▪ either that argyle should have money from the english ▪ and assistance from scotland , or that a rebellion should be raised , and that he did not reveal the famine ; and all these being sound relevant separati●n ▪ it is sufficient for me to have proved any one of them . and if a gentleman was lately found guilty of high-treason , by the opinion of all the lords o● session , for not revealing , that sir iohn cochra● sought fifty pound sterling from him , though he refused the same , and tho he believed , it was sought for a charitable subsistance to preserve him from starving ; what deserves this pannal , who sought thirty thousand pound sterling , to buy him arms , to invade his native countrey ? that ierviswood was designing to carry on a rebellion , or at least was accessory , or ( as our law terms it ) was art and part thereof , is clearly prov'd ; but that in this occult and hidden crime , which uses not to be prov'd by clear witnesses ; i may lead you thorow all the steps of the probation , which like the links of a chain , hang upon one another . you will be pleased to consider , that . it is proved that he desired a blind commission to go to england , not to manage the affairs of the carolina company , as he confess'd , but to push the people of england to do something for themselves , because they did only talk and not do ; and what he would have them to do , appears too clearly , because he tells the earl of tarras it was probable , that if the king were briskly put to it by the parliament of england , he would consent to exclude the duke from the succession : here is not only a treasonable design , ( though a design be sufficient in treason ) but here are express acts of treason proved , viz. the treating with the earl of tarras upon this design , the settling a correspondence with him for the prosecution of it , and the writing letters from london to him concerning it , and the sending down mr. martin to compleat it by a general ●●sing ; as he design'd to push on the english , so he prosecutes closely 〈◊〉 design upon all occasions . on the road he complains cunningly and bitterly , that our lives , laws and liberties , and the protestant religon were in danger , the stile and method of all such as design to rebel ; after he arrives at london , he engages the conspirators there to assist the late earl of argile , a declar'd traitor , with money to buy arms ; this was indeed to push the english to do the most dangerous things by the most dangerous man , and in the most dangerous methods . he enters also in a strict correspondence with ferguson the contriver , with shepard the thesaurer , and carstares the chaplain of the conspiracy . alexander monro another present witness , proves that he argued with him , that it was necessary to give argile money expressly for carrying on the rebellion , and that they did meet at ierviswoods chamber where this was spoke of , and from which mr. robert martin was sent to their friends in scotland to know what they would do ; and though the silly caution was , that they sent him to prevent their rising , yet a man must renounce common sense , not to see that the design was to incite them to rebellion , and to prevent only their doing any thing in this rebellious design , by which they might lose themselves in a too early and abortive insurrection here , till things were ready in england . for , . this commission was given him in a place , and by a company who had been themselves treating immediatly before of sending money to the late e. of argile to buy arms , and certainly those arms were to be bought for men , and not for a magazine . . they were treating how many men could be raised in scotland . . carstares deposition bears , that martin was sent to hinder rash resolutions , till they saw how matters went in england , and the return to their embassy bore , that it would not be an easie matter to get the gentry of scotland to concur ; but afterwards better hopes of their rising was given , which could not have been , if the true commission had not been to raise scotland . . that sir iohn cochran made a speech to that purpose , is expressly prov'd , and that ierviswood spoke to the same purpose , is prov'd by a necessary consequence ; for since it 's prov'd that he spoke , and that he did not speak against it , it must necessarily follow that he spoke for it , though the witness is so cautious , that he cannot condescend upon the words now after so long a time ; and it is against sense to think , that ierviswood who in privat press'd the same so much upon commissar monro , and who was the deacon-conveener here , and who , as mr. martin their envoy declared , was the person who was to be sent for the arms , should not himself have been the most forward man in that design , but above all exitus acta probat , this commissioner , ( who being a meer servant , durst not have proposed any thing from himself , being a mean person , and being one , who , as the earl of tarras deposes , would say nothing , but what was in his paper : ) does expresly declare , that he came from ierviswood and others ; and in the meeting with him , a rebellion is actually formed , and it is resolved , they should seize the king's officers of state , garisons , and forces , and that they should joyn with the late e. of argyle , and put their own forces in a condition to joyn with these forces that were to come from england , and they gave a sign , and a word , which uses only to be done in actual war ; so here is treason clearly prov'd , by two present witnesses , from the first design to it's last perfection . nor can it be objected , that they are not concurring witnesses , but testes singulares upon separat acts , for in reiterable crimes , witnesses deposing upon different acts ; do prove if the deeds tend to the same end ; as for instance , if one witnes should depose , that they saw a traitor sit in a council of war , in one place , and in another place , they saw him in arms , or that one saw him assist at a proclamation in one place , and saw him in arms in another ; or that one saw him writ a treasonable paper , and another saw him use it ; these witnesses are still considered as contestes , or concurring witnesses , and ten or twelve inqueists have so found , and upon their verdict , rebells have been lately hang'd . the learn'd judges of england being all met together did expresly find , that one witnes proving , that a. b. said , that he was going to buy a knife to kill the king , and another deposing , that he saw him buy a knife , without telling for what , that these two witnesses were contestes , and prov'd sufficiently the cryme of treason , yet there the one witnes , prov'd only a remote design , and the other an act , which was indifferent of it's own nature , and became only treasonable by the connexion ; but no witnesses ever deposed upon things so coherent , and so connected together , as these do , for they depose still upon the same person , carrying on the same design of a rebellion ; as to which , in one place , he is exciting his own nephew , and telling him his resolutions , and settling a correspondence with him , at another time , he presses commissar monro to the same rebellion . at a third , he holds a meeting at his own chamber , and speaks concerning it , and from that meeting , he sends a trusty , who formes the rebellion . besides all this , tho two witnesses be sufficient , i have adduced mr. william carstares chief conspirator , and who choos'd rather to suffer violent torture , than to disclose it , he likewise deposes upon all these steps , and connects them together , and this his deposition is twice reiterated , upon oath , after much premeditation . and i likewise adduce two depositions taken upon oath , by sir leolin ienkins , who was impower'd by the law of england , and at the command of the king , and the council of england , upon a letter from his majesties officers of state here , in which deposition , shepard , one of the witnesses , deposes , that baillie came frequently to him , and desired him to advance the money , and lamented the delays , and that there was so little to be advanced ; and who should be better believed then one who was his own trustie , and a person who was able to advance so great a sum ; bourn , another of the witnesses , deposes , that ferguson told him , that the pannal spoke frequently to him concerning the same money , and that he sat up several nights with ferguson upon the said conspiracy ; and who should be better believed then fergusons confident , and one who was so far trusted in the whole affair , that he was to take away that sacred life , which heaven has preserv'd by so many miracles . against these three depositions , you have heard it objected , that non testimonia sed testes probant , especially by our law , in which , by an express act of parliament , no probation is to be led , but in presence of the assise and pannal . to which it is answered , that these depositions are not meer testimonies ; for i call a testimony , a voluntar declaration , emitted without an oath , and a judge ; but these depositions are taken under the awe of an oath , and by the direction of a judge . . shepard was confronted with the pannal himself , and he had nothing to say against him ; whereas the great thing that can be objected against testimonies ( and by our statute especially ) is that if the party who emits the testimony had been confronted with the pannal ; the impression of seeing a person that was to die , by his deposition , would have made him afraid to depose laxly ; and the pannal likewise might , by proposing interrogators and questions , have cleared himself , and satisfi'd the judges in many things depos'd against him : but so it is that mr. shepard having been confronted with the pannal , before the king himself , who is as ●ar above other judges , in his reason and justice , as he is in his power and authority ; he deposes that the pannal was the chief mannager of this conspiracy , next to argile , and that he was so passionate to have this money to buy arms , that he lamented the delays ; and can it be imagined that mr. shepard whom he trusted with his life and his fortune , and whom all their party trusted with their cash , would have depos'd any thing against him that was not true , especially when he knew that what he was to depose , was to take away his life and his fortune ; or that if the pannal had been innocent , he would not when he was confronted with mr. shepard , before the king himself , have roar'd against mr. shepard , if he had not been conscious to his own guilt . there is a surprise in innocence , which makes the innocent exclaim , and it inspires men with a courage , which enables them to confound those who depose falsly against them ; and in what occasion could either of these have appear'd , more than in this , wherein this gentleman was charg'd to have conspir'd with the greatest of rascals , against the best of princes ; and that too in presence of the prince himself , against whom he had conspir'd ; but guilt stupifies indeed , and it did never more than in this gentlemans case , whose silence was a more convincing witness than mr. shepard could be . mr. carstares likewise knew when he was to depone , that his deposition was to be used against ierviswood , and he stood more in awe of his love to his friend , than of the fear of the torture , and hazarded rather to die for ierviswood , than that ierviswood should die by him : how can it then be imagin'd , that if this man had seen ierviswood in his tryal , it would have altered his deposition ; or that this kindness , which we all admir'd in him would have suffer'd him to forget any thing in his deposition , which might have been advantageous in the least to his friend : and they understand ill this hight of friendship , who think that it would not have been more nice and careful , than any advocate could have been : and if carstares had forgot at one time , would he not have supplyed it at another ; but especially at this last time , when he knew his friend was already brought upon his tryal : and that this renew'd testimony was yet a further confirmation of what was said against him ; and albeit the kings servants were forced to engage , that carstares himself should not be made use of as a witness against ierviswood ; yet i think this kind scrupulosity in carstares for ierviswood , should convince you more than twenty suspect , nay than even indifferent witnesses ; nor can it be imagined , that the one of these witnesses ; would not have been as much afraid of god , and his oath at london , as at edinburgh ; and the other in the council chamber in the forenoon , as in the justice-court in the afternoon . . the statute founded on , does not discharge the producing of testimonies otherways than after the jury is inclos'd ; for then indeed they might be dangerous , because the party could not object against them : but since the statute only discharges to produce writ , or witnesses , after the jury is inclos'd ; it seems clearly to insinuat , that they ought to prove when they are produc'd in presence of the party himself , as now they are . and though the civil law did not allow their judges to believe testimonies , because they were confin'd to observe strict law ; yet it does not from that follow , that our juries , whom the law allows to be a law to themselves , and to be confin'd by no rule , but their conscience , may not trust intirely to the depositions of witnesses , though not taken before themselves , when they know that the witnesses , by whom , and the judges , before whom these depositions were emited , are persons beyond all suspition , as in our case . but yet for all this , i produce these testimonies , as adminicles here only to connect the depositions of the present witnesses , and not to be equivalent to witnesses in this legal process ; albeit , as to the conviction of mankind , they are stronger than any ordinary witnesses . when you , my lords and gentlemen , remember that it is not the revenge of a privat party , that accuses in this case ; and that even in privat crimes , such as forgery , or the murder of children , &c. many juries here have proceeded upon meer presumptions , and that even solomon himself , founded his illustrious decision , approv'd by god almighty , upon the presum'd assertion of a mother ; i hope ye will think two friends deposing , as present witnesses , adminiculated and connected by the depositions of others , though absent ; should beget in you an intire belief , especially against a pannal , who has been always known to incline this way , and who , though he was desired in the tolbooth to vindicate himself from those crimes , would not say any thing in his own defence , and though he offers to clear himself of his accession to the kings murder , yet sayes nothing to clear himself from the conspiracy entered into with the late earl of argile , for invading his native countrey , which is all that i here charge upon him , and which he inclines to justifie , as a necessary mean for redressing grievances ; i must therefore remember you , that an inquest of very worthy gentlemen did find rathillet guilty , tho there was but one witness led against him , because when he was put to it , he did not deny his accession : and two rogues were found guilty in the late circuit at glascow , for having murdered a gentleman of the guard , though no man saw them kill him ; but the murderers having been pursued , they run to the place out of which the pannals then accused were taken , none having seen the face of the runaweys ; and the pannals being accus'd : and press'd to deny the accession , shun'd to disown the guilt , but desired it might be proved against them . this may convince you that there are proofs which are stronger then witnesses ; and i am sure that there were never more proving witnesses then in this case , nor were the depositions of witnesses ever more strongly adminiculated . remember the danger likewise of emboldening conspiracies against the kings sacred life , and of encouraging a civil war , wherein your selves and your posterity may bleed , by making the least difficulty to find a man guilty by the strongest proofs that ever were adduced in so latent a crime as a conspiracy is . and i do justly conclude , that whoever denys that a conspiracy can be thus prov'd , does let all the world see that he inclines that conspiracies should be encouraged and allow'd . our age is so far from needing such encouragements , that on the other hand in this , as in all other crimes , because the guilt grows frequent and dangerous , the probation should therefore be made the more easie , tho in this case the king needs as little desire your favour , as fear your justice . and i have insisted so much upon this probation , rather to convince the world of the conspiracy , than you that this conspirator is guilty . thereafter the lords ordained the assize to inclose , and return their verdict to morrow by nine a clock in the morning . edinburgh , december . . the said day , the persons who past upon the assie of mr. robert baillie of ierviswood , return'd their verdict in presence of the saids lords ; whereof the tenor follows . the assize , all in one voice , finds the crimes of art and part in the conspiracy , and plot libelled ; and of concealing , and not revealing the same , clearly proven against mr. robert baillie the pannal , in respect of the depositions of witnesses and adminicles adduced . sic subscribitur , strathmore chancellor . after opening and reading of the which verdict of assyze , the lords , justice general , justice clerk , and commissioners of justiciary ▪ therefore , by the mouth of iames iohnstoun dempster of court , decerned and adjudged the said mr. robert baillie of ierviswood to be taken to the mercat cross of edinburgh , this twentie fourth day of december instant , betwixt two and four a clock in the afternoon , and there to be hanged on a gibbet till he be dead , and his head to be cut off , and his body to be quartered in four , and his head to be affixt on the nether-bow of edinburgh , and one of his quarters to be affixt on the tolbooth of iedburgh , another on the tolbooth of lanerk , a third on the tolbooth of air , and a fourth on the tolbooth of glasgow ; and ordains his name , fame , memory , and honours to be extinct , his blood to be tainted , and his arms to be riven forth , and delate out of the books of arms , so that his posterity may never have place , nor be able hereafter to bruik , or joyse any honours , offices , titles or dignities , within this realm in time coming ; and to have forfaulted , ammitted and tint all and sundry his lands , heritages , tacks , steadings , rooms , possessions , goods and gear whatsoever , pertaining to him , to our soveraign lords use , to remain perpetually with his highness , in property , which was pronunced for doom . sic subscribitur . linlithgow . james foulis , i. lockhart , david balfour , roger hog , al. seton , p. lyon. extracted forth of the books of adjournal , by me mr. thomas gordon , clerk to the iustice court , sic subscribitur . tho. gordon . in pursuance of which sentence , his majesties heraulds , and pursevants , with their coats display'd ( after sound of trumpets , ) did publickly , in face of the court ( conform to the custom , in the sentences of treason ) in his majesties name and authority , cancel , tear and destroy the said mr. robert baillie his arms , threw them in his face , trampl'd them under foot ; and ordain'd his arms to be expunged out of the books of herauldry , his posterity to be ignoble , and never to injoy honour and dignity in time coming : and thereafter went to the mercat-cross of edinburgh , and solemnly tore and cancelled the said mr. robert baillie his arms , and affixed the famine on the said mercat-cross reversed , with this inscription ; the arms of mr. robert baillie late of jerviswood traitor . finis notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e * nota , that this week his majesty was expected from new-mercat , but came . dayes sooner , by reason of the fire . * monmouth . * carstares . † scotland . * scotland . † england . * dissenting lords . † carstares . * dissenting lords . notes for div a -e nota , that the earl of tarras depon'd nothing against jerviswood but what the other two witnesses depon'd against himself before the tryal , and upon which thereafter they being renew'd , the earl was forfaulted ; so that there could be no ground of suspicion from his circumstances . the tryals of vvilliam ireland, thomas pickering, & john grove, for conspiring to murder the king who upon full evidence were found guilty of high treason at the session-house in old-bailye, dec. , , and received sentence accordingly. ireland, william, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryals of vvilliam ireland, thomas pickering, & john grove, for conspiring to murder the king who upon full evidence were found guilty of high treason at the session-house in old-bailye, dec. , , and received sentence accordingly. ireland, william, - . pickering, thomas, d. . grove, john, d. . england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). p. [s.n.], reprinted at dublin : m.dc.lxxviii [ ] imperfect: pages faded and tightly bound with slight loss of print. reproduction of original in the trinity college library, dublin university. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce 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remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng popish plot, . trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryals of vvilliam ireland , thomas pickering , & john grove , for conspiring to murder the king : who upon full evidence were found guilty of high treason , at the session-house in old-bailye , dec. . , and received sentence accordingly : reprinted at dublin , m : dc . lxxviii . the tryals of william ireland , thomas pickering , and john grove . on tuesday the seventeenth day of december , one thousand six hundred seventy and eight , thomas white alias whitebread , william ireland , john fenwick , thomas picker●●ng ●●nd john grove were brought from his majesties gaol of newgate , to the sessions-house ●●t ●●stice-hall in the old-baily , being there indicted for high treason , for contriving and ●●ot ●●iring to murder the king , to receive their tryal ; and the court proceeded thereupon ●●s ●●lloweth . the court being set , proclamation was made for attendance , thus. clerk of crown , cry●●r make proclamation . cryer , o yes , o yes , o yes , all manner of persons that have any thing to do at this general sessions of the peace , holden for the city of london , sessions of oyer and termi●●er and gaol delivery of newgate , holden for the city of london and county of middlesex , draw near and give your attendance , for now the court will proceed to the pleas of the crown for the same city and county . god save the king. clerk of crown , cryer make proclamation . cryer , o yes , all manner of persons are commanded to keep silence upon pain of impri●●onment . peace about the court. clerk of crown , cryer make proclamation . cryer , o yes , you good men of the county of middlesex that are summoned to appear ●●ere this day , to enquire between our soveraign lord the king , and the prisoners that are 〈…〉 shall be at the bar. answer to your names as you shall be called every one at the first ●●all and save your issues . the jurors being called and the defaults recorded , the clerk of the crown called for ●●he prisoners to the bar , viz. thomas white alias whitebread , william ireland , john fenwick , thomas pickering , and john grove , and arraigned them thus , clerk of crown , thomas white alias whitebread , hold up thy hand , which he did . william ireland , hold up thy hand . which he did . john fenwick , hold up thy hand . which he did . thomas pickering , hold up thy hand . which he did . john grove , hold up thy hand . which he did . you stand indicted by the names of thomas white alias whitebread , late of the parish of st. giles in the fields in the county of middlesex , clerk : william ireland , late of the same parish and county , clerk : john fenwick , late of the same parish and county , clerk : tho●●● pickering , late of the same parish and county clerk : and john grove late of the same ●…h and county , gent. for that you five as false traitors . &c. against the peace of our so●●raign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the stature in ●●hat case made and provided . how sayst thou thomas vvhite alias whitebread , art thou guilty of this h●●gh treason whereof thou standest indicted or not guilty ? whitebread , not guilty . clerk of the crown , culprit how wilt thou be tryed ? whitebread , by god and my country . clerk of crown , god send thee a good deliverance . how sayst thou william ireland , a●● thou guilty of the same high treason or not guilty ? ireland not guilty . clerk of crown , culprit how wilt thou be tryed ? ireland , by god and my countrey . clerk of crown , god send thee a good deliverance . how saist thou john fenwick , a●● thou guilty of the same high treason or not guilty ? fenwick , not guilty . clerk of crown , culprit how wilt thou be tryed ? fenwick , by god and my countrey . clerk of crown , god send thee a good deliverance . how saist thou thomas pickering , a●● thou guilty of the same high treason or not guilty . pickering , not guilty . clerk of crown , culprit how wilt thou be tryed ? pickering , by god and my country . clerk of crown , god send thee a good deliverance , how saist thou john grove , art tho●● guilty of the same high treason or not guilty ? grove not guilty . clerk of crown , culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? grove , by god and my countrey , clerk of crown , god send thee a good deliverance . you the prisoners at the bar those men that you shall hear called and do personally appear , are to pass between o●● soveraign lord the king and you : upon tryal of your several lives and deaths ; if therefore you or any of you will challenge them or any of them , your time is to speak unto them as they come to the book to be sworn , before they be sworn . sir philip mathews to the book . sir philip mathews . i desire sir william roberts may be called first . which was granted . clerk of crown , sir william roberts to the book . look upon the prisoners . you shall wel●● and truly try and true deliverance make between our soveraign lord the king , and th●● prisoners at the bar , whom you shall have in your charge according to your evidence . s●● help you god : the same oath was administred to th the rest , the prisoners challenging none , and thei●● names in order were thus . jury . sir william roberts , baronet . sir philip mathews , bar , sir charles lee , knight . edward vvilford , esq john foster , esq joshua galliard , esq john byfield , esquire . thomas egglesfield , esq thomas johnson , esq john pulford , esq thomas earnesby , esq richard vvheeler , gent. clerk of crown , cryer count these . sir vvillam roberts . cryer , one , &c , clerk of crown , richard vvheeler . cryer , twelve , good men and true , stand together and hear your evidence . clerk of crown , cryer make proclamation . cryer , o yes , if any one can inform my lords the kings justices , the kings serjeant , the kings attorney ▪ or this inquest now to betaken ▪ between our sovereign lord the king and the prisoners at the bar , let them come forth and they shall be heard , for now the prisoners stand at the bar upon their deliverance : and all others that are bound by recognizance to give evidence against any of the prisoners at the bar , let them come forth and give their evidence●● or else they forfe●●t their recognizance ▪ and all jury men of midd●●esex that have been summoned and have appeared & are not sworn , may depart the court and take their eases . cl : of crown . make proclamation of silence . cryer , o yes , all manner of persons are commanded to keep silence upon pain of imprisonment . cl : of crown , thomas white alias whitebread hold up thy hand which he did , and so of the rest . you that are sworn look upon the prisoners and harken to their cause . you shall understand , that they stand indicted by the names of thomas white , otherwise whitebread , late of the parish of st. gyles in the fields , in the county of middlesex clerk , william ireland , late of the same parish in the county aforesaid , clerk ; john fenwick , late of the same parish in the county aforesaid , clerk , thomas pickering , late of the same parish in the county aforesaid clerk ; and john grove , late of the same parish in the county aforesaid gentleman ; for that they as false traytors of the most illustrious , se●●ene , and most excellent prince , our soverign lord charles the ii. by the grace of god of england , scotland , france , and ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c. their supreme and natural lord , not haveing the feare of god in their hearts , nor the duties of their allegeance any ways weighing , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , and true , due , and natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our said soveraign , lord the king , towards our said soverign lord the king , should and of right ought to bear , altogether withdrawing & endeavouring , and with their whole strength intending the peace and common tranquillity of this kingdom of england to disturbe , and the true worship of god within this kingdom of england , used and by law established to overthrow , and to move , stir up , and procure rebellion within this kingdom of england , and the cordial love , and true and due obedience , which true and saithful subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , towards our said soveraign lord the king should and of right ought to bear , wholly to withdraw , vanguish and extinquish , and our said sovereign lord the king to death , and final destruction to bring and put the th . day of april . in the year of the reign of our said sovereign l : charles the ii by the grace of god of england , scotland , france , and ireland , king defender of the saith , &c. the th . at the parish of st. gyles in the fields aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , deceitfully , advisedly and trayterously , they did propose , compa●●e imagine , and intend , to stir up , move , and procure sedition and rebellion within this kingdom of england , and to procure and cause a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said sovereign l. the king. and wholly to deprive depose , throw down , and disinher it our said sovereign lord the king from his royal state , title , power , and government of this his kingdom of england , and him our said soveraign lord the king to put to death , and utterly to destroy , the government of this kingdom of england , and the sincere religion & worship of god in the same kingdom , rightly and by the laws of the same kingdom established , for their will and pleasure to change and alter , and wholly to subvert and destroy the state of the whole kingdom , being in all parts thereof well instituted and ordered , and to levy war against our said soveraign lord the king within this his realm of england , and to fulfil and bring to pass these their most wicked treasons and trayterous designs and purposes aforesaid , they the said thomas white allas whitebread , william ireland , john fenwick , thomas pickering , & john grove , and other false tr●●ytors unknow●● , the said so ●● and tweentieth day of april , in the said th . year of the reign of our said lord the king , with force and arms , &c. at the parish of st. giles in the fields aforesaid , in the county of midelesex aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , deceitfully , advisedly , devillish●●y and traiterously did assemble , unite and gather themselves together , and then and there falsly , maliciously , deceitfully , advisedly , devillishly and traiterously they did consult and agree to put and bring our said soveraign lord the king to death & final destruction , and to alter and change the religion rightly and by the laws of the same kingdom established , to the superstition of the church of rome , and that sooner to bring to pass and accomplish the same , their most wicked treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid , they the said thomas white otherwise whitebread , william ireland , john fenwick , thomas pickering , john grove and other false traitors of our said sovereign lord the king unknown , afterwards ( to wit ) the said th day of april , in the said th year of the reign of our sovereign lord the king , at the said parish of st. giles in the fields , in the county of midlesex aforesaid , falsly , deceitfully , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly and traiterously they did consult and agree , that they the said thomas pickering and john grove should kill and murther our said sovereign lord the king : and that they the said thomas white otherwise whitebread , william ireland , john frenwick , and other false traitors unknown , should therefore say , celebrate and perform a certain number of masses , ( then and there agreed on among them ) for the good of the soul of the said thomas pickering , and should therefore pay to the said john grove a certain sum of money , ( then and there also agreed on among them : ) and further that the said thomas pickering and john grove upon the agreement aforesaid , then and there falsly ▪ deceitfully , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly & traiterously did undertake , and to the said thomas white otherwise whitebread , william ireland , john fenwick , and other false traitors of our said sovereign lord the king unknown , then and there falsly , deceitfully , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly , and traiterously they did then and there promise , that they the said thomas pickering and john grove our said sovereign lord the king would kill and murther : and further , that they the said thomas white otherwise whitbread , william ireland , john fenwick , thomas pickering and john grove , and other false traitors of our said sovereign lord the king unknown , afterwards ( to wit ) the said th day of april , in the thirtieth year of the reign of our said soverign lord the king , at the said parish of st. giles in the fields in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , deceitfully , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly and traiterously did severally plight their faith every one to other of them , and did then and their swear and promise upon the sacrament , to conceal , and not to divulge their said most wicked treasons , and traiterons compassings , consultations , and purposes aforesaid , so among them had traiterously to kill and murther our said sovereign lord the king , and to introduce the roman religion , to be used within this kingdom of england , and to alter & change the true reformed religion , rightly and by the laws of this kingdom of england , in this same kingdom of england established : and further , that they the said thomas pickering and john grove , in execution of their said traiterous agreement , afterwards ( to wit ) the same th day of april , in the said thirtieth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king , and divers other days and times afterwards at the said parish of st. giles in the fields , in the said county of middlesex , falsly , deceitfully , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly and traiterously they did prepare and obtain to themselves , and had and did keep musquets , pistols , swords , daggers , and other offensive and cruel weapons and instruments , to kill and murther our said sovereign lord the king : and that they the said thomas pickering and john grove afterwards , to wit , the said four and twentieth day of april , in the said thirtieth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king , and divers days and times afterwards with force and arms , &c. at the said parish of st. giles in the fields , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , and in other places within the said county of middlesex falsly , deceitfully , advisedly , maliciously and traiterously , did lie in wait , and endeavour to kill and murder our said sovereion lord the king ; and further , that they the said thomas white otherwise whitebread , william ireland , john fenwick and other false traitors unknown , afterwards ( to wit ) the said th day of april in the said thirtieth year of the reign of our sovereign lord the king , at the said parish of st : giles in the fields , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , deceitfully , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly and traiterously did prepare , perswade , excite , abet , comfort and counsel four other persons unknown , and subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , traiterously to kill and murder our said sovereign lord the king , against the duty of their allegiance , against the peace of our said sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that behalf made and provided . upon this indictment they have been arraigned , and thereunto have severally pleaded not guilty , and for their tryal have put themselves upon god and their country , which country you are . your charge therefore is to enquire whether they or any of them be guilty of the high treason , whereof they stand indicted , or not guilty . if you find them guilty you are to enquire what goods or chattels , lands or tenements , those you find guilty had at the time of the high treason committed , or at any time since . if you find them , or any of them not guilty , you are to enquire whether they did flee for it ; if you find that they or any of them fled for it , you are to enquire of their goods and chattels , as if you had found them guilty . if you find them or any of them not guilty , nor that they , nor any of them fled for it , say so , and no more , and hear your evidence . make proclamation for silence on both sides . which was done . then sir creswell levings , one of the kings learned council in the law , opened the indictment , thus : sir cresw . levings ▪ may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . these prisoners at the bar , thomas white , alias whitebread , william ireland , john fenwick , thomas pickering and john grove do all stand indicted of high treason ; for that whereas they , as false traytors , meaning and designing to disturb the peace of the kingdom , to levy war within the kingdom , to make miserable slaughter amongst the kings subjects , to subvert the religion established by the law of the land , to introduce the superstition of the church of rome and to bring to death and final destruction , and to murder and assassinate our soveraign lord the king , they did , to effect these things , the four and twentieth of april last assemble themselves together with many other false traytors , yet unknown , in the parish of saint giles in the fields , in the county of middlesex , and there , being so assembled , the better to effect these designs did make agreements and conspire together ; first , that pickering and grove should kill the king , and that white and the rest of the persons that stand indicted , with many other traytors , should say a great number of masses for the soul of the said pickering , i think thirty thousand , and they did further agree there that grove should have a great sum of mony , and upon this agre●●ment grove and pickering did undertake and promise they would do this fact , and did then and there take the sacrament and an oath to one another upon the sacrament , that they would conceal these their treasons , that they might the better effect them : and that in pursuance of this , grove and pickering did divers timesly in wait to murder the king , and did provide arms to do it ; and the indictment further sets forth , that white , and ireland and fenwick and many other traytors yet unknown , did procure four other persons , yet also unknown , for to kill the king , against the pea●●e of our sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute . these are the heads of those facts for which they stand indicted : they have all pleaded not guilty , if we prove them or any of them guilty of these or any of these facts according to the evidence you shall have , we hope you will find it . sir samuel baldwin , one of his majesties serjeants at law opened the charge as followeth . sir samuel baldwin . may it please your lordship and you gentlemen of the jury , the persons here before you stand indicted for high treason , they are five in number , three of them are jesuits , one is a priest , the fifth is a layman , persons fitly prepared for the work in hand . gentlemen , it is not unknown to most persons , nay to every one amongst us , that hath the least observed the former times , how that ever since the reformation there hath been a design carried on to subvert the government , and destroy the protestant religion established here in england , for during all the reign of queen elizabeth severall attempts were made by several priests and jesuits , that came from beyond the seas , ( though the laws were then severe against them ) to destroy the queen , and alter the religion established here in england , and to introduce popery and the superstition of the church of rome . but the conspirators from time to time , during all the queens reign , were disappointed , as edmond camtion and several other jesuits , who came over in that time , and were executed & did suffer for their treasons according to law : at length about the lat●●erend of the queens time , a seminary for the english jesuits was founded at valled●●lid in spain , and you know the emyloyment such persons have . and soon after the queens death , in the beginning of the reign of king james several persons came over into england from this very seminary , who , together with one henry garnet , superior of the jesuits then in england , and divers other english papists , hatched that hellish gunpowder-plot ; whereby what was designed you all know , but as it fell out , these persons , as well as those in queen elizabeths time , were likewise disappointed for their execrable treasons , in the third year of king james , were executed at tyburn and otherplaces . this is evident by the very act of parliament in . jacobi in the preamble whereof mention is made that creswel and tesmond jesuits , came from validolid in spain to execute this gunpowder-treason with the poplsh party here in england . and gentlemen , after this treason , so miraculously discovered , was punished , one would not have thought that any future age would have been guilty of the like conspiracy ; but it so falls out , that the mystery of iniquity and jesuitism still worketh , for there hath of late been a sort of cruel bloody minded persons , who , in hopes to have better success than they had in fo●●mer times , during the reigns of queen elizabeth and king james , have set on foot as horrid a design as that of the gunpowder-treason ; i can resemble it to no other plot , or design , or treason in any other time , and truely it does resemble that , in many particulars : i may say , it doth at least equal it , if not exceed it . i shall mention two or three particulars , in which this plot doth resemble that . first , that horrid design was to take away the life of the then king , to subvert the government , to introduce the popish religion , and to destroy the established protestant religion in england , and so gentlemen , we think our prooff will make it out , that in each of these particulars this design is the same that that was . secondly , the great actors in that design were preists and jesuits that came from valedolid in spain and other places beyond the seas . and the great actors in this plot are priests and jesuits , that are come from st. omers , and other places beyond the seas nearer home then spain . thirdly . that plott was chiefly guided and mannaged by henry garnett , superiour and provincial of the jesuits then in england ; and the great actor in this design , is mr. whitebread , superiour and provincial of the jesuits now in england ; so that i say in the several particulars it does resemble the gun powder plot . gentlemen , in this plot of which the prisoners now stand indicted several persons have several parts , some of these persons are imployed to keep correspondence beyond the seas , ( of which more hath been said in another place , and so i shall not speak of it here others were to procure and prepare aid and assistance here in england , who were to be ready when there should be occasion to use it . but the great part these persons ( the prisoners at the bar , ) were to act in this conspiracy , was , to take away the life of our soveraigne lord the king , on whose preservation the safety and welfare of three nations ( and millions of men ) does depend . now the facts for which the five prisoners stand indicted , i shall open thus ; first they are here indicted for conspireing the death of his sacred majesty : they did agree to take away the kings life , and entring into such an agreement ; they hired some persons amongst them to doe it ; and this agreement was made the th . of april , last , . secondly , there is another fact they likewise stand indicted for : that they did endeavour and contrive to change and alter the religion established in the nation , and introduce p●●pery in tho room of it . the manner how to effect this , was thus , if my information be right ; you shall hear that from the evidence , mr. whitebread being resident here in england , and superiour of the jesuits , did in february last think fit , ( being impowred by authority from rome ) to give summons to the jesuits abroade , at st. omers , and other places beyond the seas , that they should come over here into england , to be ready at london , on the th . of april , the day laid in the indictment and which is the day after st. georges day ; and their design was ( as will appear by the proof ) to contrive how they may take away the life of the king : for , if that were once done , they thought , in all other things , their design would easily be accomplished , after the summons were out , they were so officious for the accomplishing of this great end , that between . and . jesuits did appear here at london at the time , ( for thither they were summoned ) and there the meeting was appointed to be at the white-horse taverne in the strand they were to meet first ; but being so great a number , that they were likely to be taken notice of , if they came all together , it was so ordered , they should come but a few at a time , and go off in small numbers ; and others should succeed them , till the whole number had been there . and there were directions given , and a course taken , that there should be some person , to tell them whither they should go from thence . after they had met there at several times in the same day , they were appointed , and adjourned to be at several other places , some of them were appointed to be at mr. whitebreads lodging , and that was in wild-street , at one mr. sanders house : others were appointed , to go 〈…〉 lodging , which was in russelstreet , ( and this mr. ireland was treasurer of the society ) : an●● others were to meet at mr. fenwicks chamber in drury-lane ; and he was at that time procurator and agent for that society . others were appointed to meet at harcourts lodging ; and others at other places . when they came there , they all agreed to the general design of the first meeting , which was , to kill the king. then there was a paper ; or some instrument to be subscribed . this was done , and the sacrament was taken for the concealment of it . after that , whitebread , ireland , fenwick ▪ and others , did agree , that mr. grove and mr. pickering should be imployed to assassiaate the king. one of them ( mr. grove ) being a lay brother , was to have , hundred pounds , a great sum , the other , as a more suitable reward for his pains , was to have . thousand masses said for his soul : mr. whitebread , mr. ireland , and mr. fenwick , ( were all privy to this design , & this was the th . of april . in august after ) they being appointed to kill the king , but it not taking effect , either their hearts misgave them ▪ or they wanted opportunity ) there was another meeting at the savoy , where the witnesses will tell you , ●●our irish persons were hired for to kill the king. and this was ordered , in case the other design took not effect . there was fourscore pounds sent down to them to windsor , where they were to have done the fact . after this , other persons were appointed to do the execution , and they were to take the king at his mornning walk a●● new-market . these persons are all disappointed in their design : but you shall hear what was the agreement , how it was carried on , and what rewards were given to carry it on . we shal acquaint you likewise , that for the bottom of this design ( when so many jesuits should come over , when they should have so many consultations , and when they should resolve to kill the king ) there could be no less then the altering of religion , and introduction of popery here in england . and that time , at the first meeting , they had ordered , that mr. cary a jesuit as their procurator and agent , should go to rome , to act their concern there . all which things and more , will be made out to you by witnesses produced . there are likewise , some other circumstances that will be material to confirm those witnesses . we shall produce to you a letter written in february last , about that time that mr. whitebread sent over his summons for the jesuits to appear here . this letter was written by one mr. peters , a jesuit now in custody ; and t is written to one tunstall a jesuit , to give him notice , that he should be in london about the th . of april . , and be ready on th●● th . of april . that he knew what the business was ; but he did advise him , that he should conceal himself , lest the plot by observation ) should be discover'd . we shall likewise produce several other evidences , to strengthen and confirm the witnesses : we shall first call our witnesses , and enter upon the proof . mr , finch opened the evidence thus . mr. finch , may it please your lord ship , and you gentlemen of the jury , before we call our witnesses , i would beg leave once more to remind you , of what hath already been open'd unto you , the quality of the offenders themselves and the nature of the offence they stand indicted of . for the offenders , they are most of them , priests and jesuits ; three of them at the least , are so ; the other two , are the accursed instruments of this design : for the offence it self , 't is high treason . and though it be high treason by the statute of , elizabeth , for men of that profession to come into england , yet these men are not indicted upon that law , nor for that treason : this i take notice of to you for the prisoners sake , that they should not fancy to themselves they suffered martyrdom for their religion , as some of them have vainly imagin'd in their case ; and for your sakes too , that as at first , it was treason , repeated acts of treason , in these men ; and those proceeding from a principle of religion too , that justly occasioned the making that law : so here you might observe a pregnant instance of it in the prisoners at the bar , that when ever they had an opportunity , as now they thought they had , they have never failed to put those principles into practice . so now , gentlemen , as they are not indicted for being priests , i must desire you to lay that quite out of the case , and only consider that they stand here accused for treason ; such treason , as , were they lay-men only , they ought to die for it ; though i cannot but observe , they were the sooner traitors for being priests . the treason therefore they stand indicted of , is of the highest nature : it is a conspiracy to kill the king , and that too with circumstances so aggravating ( if any thing can aggravate that offence which is the highest ) that nothing less than the total subversion of the government , and utter destruction of the protestant religion , would serve their turns . and really , when you consider the root from whence this treason springs , you will cease wondring that all this should be attempted , and rather wonder that it was not done . mischiefs have often miscarried for want of wickedness enough ; the horror of conscience , or else , the malice of the aggressor not being equal to the attempt , has sometimes prevented the execution of it . here is no room for any thing of this kind : this treason proceeds from principles of religion , from a sense that it is lawful ; nay , that they ought to do these things ; and every neglect here , is lookt on as a piece of irreligion , a want of zeal ; for which one of the prisoners did pennance , as in the course of our evidence we shall prove unto you . and when we consider too , that this is carried on , not by the fury of two or three busie men over zealous in the cause , but by the deliberate , and steady councels of the whole order , and that too under the obligations of secresie as high as christian religion can lay on them ; you have great reason to wonder that it did not succeed . and yet after all this they have not been able to prevail . not that we can brag of any human policy that did prevent it ; no , all that the wit of man could do , these men had done : but 't was the providence of god , 't was his revelation ; that providence that first enlightened his church , and has preserv'd it against all opposition heretofore , has once more disappointed their councells , and preserved the king and this nation in the profession of that true religion these men have vainly attempted to destroy . gentlemen , i will not open to you the particulars of our evidence , that i had rather should come from the witnesses themselves ; i shall only in general tell you what will be the course of it . we shall prove unto you , that there was a summons for a consultation to be held by these men the th of april last , from the provincial mr. whitebread ; that they had a caution given them not to come too soon , nor appear much about the town , till the consultation were over , lest oacasion should be given to suspect the design : that accordingly a consultation was held , as they say , to send cary , their procurator to rome ; though we shall prove to you , it was for other purposes : that they adjourned from their general assembly into lesser companies , where several persons did attend them to carry intelligences of their several resolutions : that at these several consults , they did resolve , the king was to be killed ; that pickering and grove should do it ; for which the one was to have masses said for his soul : the other l. that in prosecution of this design , they made several attempts to execute it , that they lay in wait for the king several times in st. james's park and other places ; and that once in particular , it had been done by pickering ; if it had not pleased god to have prevented it by an accident unforeseen ; the flint of his pistol being loose , he durst not then attempt it , though he had an opportunity ; for which neglect , we shall prove unto you , he underwent the pennance of or strokes . that when these men had failed , we shall prove to you they hired four ruffians to murther the king at windsor , and after that at newmarket . thus they way-laid him in all his privacies and retirements , wherever they could think it most convenient to execute their design . and this we shall prove by two witnesses ; who , though they should not speak to the same consultations , nor the same times , yet they are still two witnesses in law : for several witnesses of several overt-acts , are so many witnesses to the treason ; because the treason consists in the intention of the man , in the compassing and imagining the death of the king. the several overt-acts which declare that intention , are but as so many evidences of the treason ; we will call our witnesses , and make out what had been open'd to you . cl. of cr. mr. oates , lay your hand upon the book . the evidence you shall give for our sovereign lord the king against thomas white alas whitebread , william ireland , john fenwick , thomas pickering , and john grove , the prisoners at the bar , shall be the truth , the whole truth , and nothing but the truth , so help you god. mr. serj. baldwin . pray mr. oates , will you declare to the court and the jury , what design there was for the killing of his majesty , and by whom . mr. oates . my lord in the month of december last , mr. thomas whitebread did receive a patent from the general of the jesuits at rome to be provincial of the order ; after he had received this patent , he sent orders to one george conyers a jesuit at st. omers to preach upon st. thomas of canterburys day ; and by virtue of this order , george conyers did preach against oaths of allegiance and supremacy , and did in his doctrine call them anti-christian and devillish . my lord , in the month of january , this mr. whitebread did send several letters to st. omers , in which letters there was contained intimation of his intent to proceed against the kings person to assassinate him , which letters were written to richard asby . my lord , in the month of february , there comes an order from him , as provincial , for several of the jesuits to make their appearance at london , to be there at a consult to be held the th of april , old stile . lord ch. just . where was whitebread then . mr. oates . he was then in london , my lord , as i suppose by the dateing of his letters . my lord , from mr. whitebread after this summons , we received a second summons , which came the th of april , new stile , and upon the summons there were nine did appear at london , the rector of liege , sir thomas prest●●n , the rector of ghent , whose name is marsh , the rector of wott●●n , whose name is williams , and to one sir john harper and two or three more from st. omers , and there was a special order given us , my lord , to keep our selves close , lest we should be suspected , and so our design disclosed . my lord , upon the four and twentieth of april old stile we did appear in the consult . the consult was begun at the white horse-tavern in the strand , and there they met in several rooms , they came on by degrees , and as the new ones came on , the old ones , those that had been there before them , fell off . and there was one john cary appointed to go procurator for rome , and he was so appointed by the suffrages of the three prisoners at the bar , whitebread , ireland and fenwick . it was afterwards adjourned into several colloquies or little meetings ; one meeting was at mrs. sanders house that butts upon wild-house , a second was at m. ireland's , a third was at mr. harcourt's , a fourth was at mr. grove's , and other meeting or meetings there were , but i cannot give a good accompt of them . my lord , after they had thus met , and debated the state of religion , and the life of the king , they drew up this resolve ; it was drawn up by one mico , who was secretary to the society , and socius or companion to the provincial . l. ch. just . when was that done ? mr. oates . that day , my lord , the resolve , my lord , was this , as near as i can remember the words . it is resolved , that thomas pickering and john grove shall go on in their attempt to assassinate the king ( whether they used the word assassinate i can't remember , but the meaning was , they should make an attempt upon his person , ) and that the reward of the one , that is grove , should be fifteen hundred pounds , and that pickerings reward should be thirty thousand masses . my lord , after this resolution was signed by whitbread , it was signed by fenwick and ireland , and by all the four clubs ; i saw them sign it , for i carried the instrument from one to another . l. ch. just . what was it they signed ? mr. oates . the resolve of the consult . l. c. just . what that which was drawn up by mico ? mr. oates . yes , my lord , that which was drawn up by mico ? whitebread . doth he say that he saw them sign it ? mr. oates , yes ▪ i did see them sign it . jury . we desire he may be asked where he saw them sign it . mr. oates . mr. whitebread signed it at that part of the consult that was at his chamber ; ireland did sign it at that part of the consult that was at his chamber fenwick ; signed it at that part of the consult that was at his chamber . whitebread . were you at all these places . mr. oates . i went with it from place to place , but i mention no more now but only these . whitebread . you were not at all these places , and saw them sign it , were you ? mr. oates . yes , i did see them sign it at all those places . my lord in the month of may , mr. whitebread came over as provincial from england to st. omers , to begin his provincial visitation , and with him came cary and his companion mico . cary left st ▪ omers to begin his journy to rome ; whitebread , after he had given an accompt of what proceedings the catholicks of england had made in order to disturb the peace of the kingdom , what moneys had been gathered , what suffrages dispersed , what means have been used , what noblemen had joyned in this execrable plot ; he did then ( my lord ) order me to come for england . l. ch. just . whitebread did . mr. oates . yes , my lord whitebread did ; and , my lord the business i was to come into england for , was to murder one dr. tongue a dr. in divinity , who had written a book called the jesuits morals ; that is to say , translated them out of french into english , my lord i came over into england on the the th of june new stile , i came out of st. omers , that is the th in the stile of england , on the th new stile i took the packet boat at calice the th . new stile i met with mr. fenwick at dover . he was come down with certain youths to send them to st. omers and had ordered their passage . my lord , with mr. fenwick and some other persons , we came to london in a coach , and six miles ( as near as i remember it ) on this side canterbury , at a place called bolton , our coach was stopt by the searchers , and there they did examine a box that was in the coach , directed for the honourable richard blundel esq this box when they opened it , they found full of beads , crucifixes , images , and other sorts of trompery , that i cannot give a good account of ; it 's he can give the best : mr. fenwick went by the name of one thompson , and did personate one thompson , as living near the fountain ▪ tavern at charing-cross ; and did order the searcher to write to him there , as by the name of thompson . when the box was seized , they being prohibited goods , mr. fenwick did say ; that if they had searcht his pockets , they had found such letters about him , as might have cost him his life ; but his letters did escape searching . we came that night to sittenburgh , and lay there on sunday the th . new stile , as near as i remember ; and i think we staid there till the afternoon , we took coach in the afternoon and came as far as dartford . on munday morning we came into london ; and ( my lord ) when we came into london ; and had continued there some dayes . ( i now return to mr. whitebread , ) there came one ashby to town , he had been sometime rector of st. omers , and was come to england sick of the gout , and was to go to the ba●●h to be cured . and he brought instructions with him from whitebread , and the instructions contained in them these particulars : instructions or memorials ▪ or what ●●se they called them . first , that ten thousand pounds should be proposed to sir george wakeman . for the killing of the king. secondly , that care should be taken for the murder of the b●●shop of hereford . thirdly , that care should be taken for the murder ●●f doctor 〈…〉 s●●t . fourthly , that though this proposal was made to sir george wakeman 〈…〉 pickering and grove should go on still in their attempts ( my lord ) afterward 〈…〉 taken and copied out , and disperst to the several conspirators in the king●●●●…mes i cannot call to mind , but coleman made several copies and dispe●●st them 〈…〉 ●●hen the l ▪ was proposed to sir george vvakma●● but it was refused . l. c. j. what , it was too li●● mr. oates , yes , ( my lord ) it was too little. then writebread he writ from st. omers ▪ that in case l. would not do , should be proposed ▪ and after that he had had that proposed , he accepted of that ▪ l. c j. were you by when he accepted it . mr. oates , no ( my lord , ) i was not : but it appeared upon their entry books , and it appear'd by a letter from this gentleman mr. vvhitebread , wherein he did shew ▪ great deal of joy for sir george vvakemans accepting of the thousand pounds . ( my lord , ) after this was agreed upon , that sir george wakeman should have and ▪ of it was paid by coleman or his order . thus the state of affairs stood till august . then one fogarthey who is dead , came to a consult of the jesuits with the benedictus ▪ now at this consult the prisoner at the bar fenwick was , he was one , and harcourt was another ▪ and in this consult there were four ruffians recommended to them , l. c. j. by whom ? mr. oates , by fogarthey , they were recommended , but accepted of by these consulto●● and consented to by fenwick , they were sent away ▪ and the next day after score pound was sent them , the most part of it was gold , and coleman was there and gave the messenger a guiny to expedite his errand . ( my lord ) in the month of august there came other letters from whitebread , wherein he did give an account of what care he had taken of the scotch business , and he ordered one moor and one sanders alias browne , to go down to scotland , and he did order the rector of london , then vvilliam harcourt , to send them ; and he did so send them the th . of august in the name of the provincial . whitebread , from whence i pray ? mr. oates from london , and they went to prosecute and carry on the design which fenwick and ireland had plotted , of a rebellion amongst the disaffected scots against the governors appointed them by the king , and they sent down ministers to preach under the notion of presbyterian ministers , in order to get the disaffected scots to rise , by insinuating the sad condition they were likely to be in , by reason of episcopal tyranny , ( as they termed it ) and that they were resolved to dispose of the king , and they did intend to dispose of the duke too ; in case he did not appear vigorous in promoting the catholick religion ; ( i speak their own words . ) l. c. j. have you done with your evidence ? what do you know of the prisoners at the bar ? name them all . mr. oates , there is whitebread , ireland , fenwick , pickering and grove . lord ch. just . are you sure pickering and grove accepted of the terms ? mr. oates . yes , ( my lord ) i was there . l. c. just . where was it ? mr. oates at mr. whitebreads lodgings , at mrs. sanders house . as for grove , indeed he did attend at that time upon fenwick at his chamber ; but after the consult was over he came to whitebread's lodgings , and did take the sacrament and the oaths of secrecy upon it , and did accept it , and agree to it . l. c. just . were you there when he took the sacrament ? mr. oates , yes , ( my lord ) i was . l. c. just . who gave you the sacrament ? mr. oates , it was a jesuit , that goes by the name of one barton . whitebread , ( my lord before i forget it , i desire to say this . he says that at such and such consults in april and may , he was present and carryed the resolutions from one to an other . there are above a hundred and a hundred , that can testifie he was all that while at st. omers . pray tell me when i received the sacrament ? mr. oates ? at the same time . whitebread , what day was that ? mr. oates . the h. of april . whitebread , was i there ? mr. oates , you were there . whitebread , i take god to witness i was not . l. c. just . mr. whitebread you shall have time to make your answer . but mr. oates pray mr. oates , when was mr. cary dispatched away to rome , and what was his errand ? mr. oates , ( my lord ) i 'le tell you , he was approved of to go to rome the ●●h . of april ; in the month of may or june , whitebread brings cary over to st. omers , and one mico his secretary , or companion with him . l. c. j. when was it ? mr. oates , in the month of may or june , he was brought over by the provincial : then went away on his journy , and at paris received ●● . l. to bear his charges . mr. finch , what do you know of any attempts to kill the king at st james park ? mr. oates i saw pickering and grove several times walking in the park together with their screw'd pistols , which were longer then ordinary pistols , and shorter then some carbines . they had silver bullets to shoot with , and grove would have had the bullets to be champ't for fear that if he should shoot , if the bullets were round , the wound that might be given , might be cured , l. c. j. did grove intend to champ them ? mr. oates he did say so . l. c , j. did he shew you the bullets ? mr. oates . i did see them . grove when was this . mr , oates i saw the bullets in the month of may and in the month of june . whitebread , pray where did you see them . mr. oates . in groves possession . whitebread , at what times ? mr : oates . in the month of may ▪ whitebread , then was he actually himself at st. omers ? was it in may or june ? mr. oates , the latter end of may or june . i saw them then twice if not thrice , but , pickering's i saw in august . sir cr. levings , do you know any thing of pickerings doing penance , and for what ? mr. oates , yes . ( my lord ) in the month of march last , ( for these persons have followed the king several years ) but he at that time had not look't to the flint of his pistol but it was loose , and he durst not venture to give fire . he had a fair opportunity , as whitehread said ; and because he mist it through his own negligence , he under went penance and had or stroaks of discipline , and grove was chidden for his carelessness . l. c. j. that was in march last ? mr. oates , yes my lord. l. c. j. how do you know that . mr , oates , by letters that i have seen from mr. whitebread , these i saw and read , and i know whitebread's hand . mr. serj. baldwyn , what do you know of the ruffains that went down to windsor ▪ what success had they ? mr. oates , i can give no account of that , because in the beginning of september this gentleman that had been in england some time before , was come to london , and the business had taken air , and one beddingfield had written to him , that the thing was discovered , and that none but such a one could do it , naming me by a name that he knew ▪ i went by ▪ whitebread . when was that sir mr. oats . in the month of september last , i came to the provincial's chamber , the th . of september , when i came i could not speak with him , for he was at supper ; but when he had surp'd i was admitted in , and there he shewed me the letter that he had received from beddingfield . whitebread , where did you see it . mr. oats . you read it to me when you chide me , and beat me , and abused me . l. c. j. what did he chide you for ? mr oates . he did charge me with very high language of being with the king , & with a minister , and discovering the matter . i was so unfortunate that the gentleman who was with the king did wear the same colour'd cloathes that i did then wear : and he having given an account that the party wore such cloathes , the suspicion was laid upon me : now my lord , i had not then been with the king , but another gentleman had been with him from me with the draught of some papers concerning this business , which i had drawn up , and i was ready to appear when i should ●●e called to justifie them , only i did not think fit to appear immediately ; and , my lord , this beddingfield he had gotten into it , that it was discovered , and writ the provincial word , he thought it was by me , when he had received this letter he asked me with what face i could look upon him since i had betrayed them : so my lord , i did profess a great deal of innocency , because ●● had not then been with the king ; but he gave me very ill language , and abused me , and i was afraid of a worse mischief from them ; for i could not but conclude , that if they dealt so cruelly with those that only writ against them , i could scarce escape , of whom they had that jealousie that i had betrayed them ; and my lord , though they could not prove that i had discovered it , yet upon the bare suspition i was beaten , and affronted , and reviled , and commanded to go beyond sea again , nay , my lord , i had my lodging asaulted to have murthered me , if they could . whitebread . by whom ? mr. oats . by mr. whitebread , and some of them . whitebread . who beat you ? mr. oates . mr. whitebread did . mr. serj. baldwyn . was it pickering or grove that had the flint of his pistol loose ? mr. oates , pickering . pickering . my lord , i never shot off a pistol in all my life . l. c. j. what say you to the fourscore pounds ? mr. oates , my lord , i will speak to that , that was given to the four ruffians that were to kill the king at vvindsor ; now , my lord that money i saw . l. c. j. where did you see it ? mr. oates . at harcourts chamber . l. c. j. where is that ? mr. oates , in dukestreet , near the arch ▪ l. c. j. who was it given by ? mr , oates . vvilliam harcourt . l. c. j. did you see the four fellows ? mr. oates , no ( my lord ) i never did , nor never knew their names . l. c. j who was the money given to ? mr. oates . a messenger that was to carry it down to them . l. c. j. vvho was that messenger ? mr. oates , one of theirs that i do not know , and i durst not be too inquisitive , ( my lord ) for fear of being suspected . l. c. j. vvho was by when the money was paid ? mr. oates , coleman that is executed ; and my lord , there was this mr. fenwick by , that is the prisoner at the bar ▪ fenwick vvhen was this ? mr. oates , in the month of august . fenwick , vvhere ? mr. oates , at harcourt's chamber . fenwick . i never saw you there in all my ●●●e : are you sure i was by , when the money was there ? m. oates , yes , you were . l. c. j. mr. fenwick you shall have your time by and by to ask him any question : mr. oates let me ask you once again ; when there was the appointment made for grove and pickering to kill the king , who s●●gn'd it ? mr. oates , at least forty signed it . l. c. j. did the other three sign it ? mr. oates yes , my lord all of them . l. c. j. name them . mr. oates , there was vvhitebread , fenwick , and ireland . l. c. j. and you say you went from place to place and saw it signed . mr. oates , yes my lord , i did . l. c. j. were you attendant upon them ? mr oates , my lord i ●●ver was since the year . l. c. j. at whose lodging did you use to attend upon the consultation . m. oates , at the provincials chamber , mr. vvhitebread . l. c. j. where was it first signed ? mr. oates , at the provincials chamber . sir cr. levings . who carried it from lodging to lodging ? mr ▪ oates , i did . l. c. j. when was it ? mr. oates , the th of april . mr. j. bertue . you say you carried the result from place to place , pray tell us wh●● that result was . mr. oates , they knew what it was , for they read it before they signed it . mr. j. atkins , but tell us the contents of it . mr. oates . the contents of that resolve was this , ( i le tell you the substance , though●● cannot tell you exactly the words ) that pickering and grove should go on in their attemp●● to assassinate the person of the king , as near as i can remember it was so , that the form●● should have masses , and the latter pounds , and the whole consult did consent to it , and signed the agreement that was made with them , and did resolve up●● the kings death all in one resolve . l. c. j. where was this agreed upon ? at the white-horse tavern ? mr. oates ▪ no my lord , after they had agreed at the vvhite ▪ horse tavern that mr. c●● should go procurator to rome , and some other small particulars , which i cannot now ●● member , they did adjourn from the vvhite-horse-tavern , and met at several chamber some at one place , and some at another . l. c. j. but you say mico did draw up the resolution , where was that ? m. oates , at mr. vvhitebreads chamber , for he was socius and secretary to the provicial . l. c. j. were ireland and fenwick present when mico drew it up ? mr. oates , no my lord , but they were at their own chambers after it was drawn ●● there , and signed by mr. vvhitebread , and those of the consult in his chamber , it was caried to the several consults . l. c. j. what all the same day ▪ mr. oates , yes ▪ my lord. l. c. j. and you went along with it . mr oates , yes my lord i d●● mr just , bertue . i only ask you were all the five prisoners privy to it , or do you dis●●guish of any of them , and which ? mr. oates . they were all privy to it . whitebread . my lord , we can prov●● l. c. j. you shall have time sufficient to make what defenee you can , you shall be s●● to have a fair tryal , and be stopt of nothing that you will think fit to say for your sel●● mr. oates . were pickering and grove present ? mr. oates , yes my lord , grove at fenwicks chamber , and pickering at the provinc●● chamber . l. c. j. but they were not required to sign this , were they ? mr. oates , after that the whole consult had signed it , and mass was preparing to be 〈…〉 for it ; before mass they did sign and accept of it . l. c. j. where did they two do it ? mr. oates . at the provincials chamber . l. c. j. what day was it . mr. that day , for they met all together at the provincials chamber to receive the ●●crament , and when m●●ss was going to be said , one said it was too late , for it was after ●● a 〈…〉 but mr. whitebread said it was not after noon ●●i●● we had ▪ din'd ; and you k●●● 〈…〉 that m●●ss●●s have been said at one or two of the clock in the af●●ern●●● mr. just . atkins . how many persons did meet at that consult ? mr. oates . my lord , there were about forty or fifty , and after they had adjourned into several lesser companies , they met altogether at mr. whitebreads chamber . l. c. j. where was that , and when ? mr. oates . that day , at wild-house . l. c. j. where was it that they gave the sacrament ? mr. oates . at a little chappel at wild-house , mrs. sander's . l. c. j. did they accept it before they took the sacrament ? mr. oates ▪ yes , pickering and grove did sign it before they took the sacrament ? mr. just . atkins . you tell us of an oath of secresie that was taken , what was that oath ? mr. oates . i cannot give an account of the form of the oath , but it was an obliga●●ion of secresie . mr. just . atkins . did you see the oath administred ? mr. oates . yes , my lord , i did . l. c. j. who administred it ? mr. oates . mr. whitebread , he did give it unto me , and to all the rest that were there , and mico held the book , it was a mass-book , but they were words of his own invention i believe they were not written down . l. c. j. can't you tell what they were ? mr. oates . no , my lord , i cannot tell , because i did not see them written down . l. c. j. if you will ask this gentleman any thing more , you may . whitebread . my lord , i am in a very weak and doubtful condition as to my health , and therefore i should be very loth to speak any thing but what is true : we are to prove a negative , and i know 't is much harder to prove a negative than to assert an affirmative ; 't is not a very hard thing for a man to swear any thing if he will venture his soul for it ; but truly , i may boldly say , in the sight of almighty god , before whom i am to appear , there have not been three true words spoken by this witness . l. c. j. do you hear , if you could but satisfie , us , that you have no dispensation to call god to witness a lye — whitebread , my lord , i do affirm it with all the protestations imaginable . l. c. j. but if you have a religion that can give a dispensation for oaths , sacraments , protestations , and falshoods that are in the world , how can you expect we should believe you ? whitebread , i know no such thing . l. c. just ▪ we shall see that presently , before we have done . mr. oates , i have one thing more to say , my lord , that comes into my mind . this whitebread received power from the see of rome to grant out commissions to officers military . and , my lord , here are the seals of the office in court , which he hath sealed some hundreds of commissions with , which they call patents . l. c. j. what were those commissions for ? for an army ? mr. oates . yes , my lord , for an army . whitebread . when were those commissions signed ? mr. oates . my lord , several of them were signed in the former provincials time . l. c. j. what , i warrant you , you are not provincial of the jesuits , are you ? whitebread , i cannot deny that , my lord. l. c. j. then there are more than three words he hath spoken are true . mr. just . atkins . i believe , mr. oates , that that army was intended for something , pray what was it for ? mr. oates . my lord , they were to rise upon the death of the king , and let the french king in upon us , and they had made it their business to prepare ireland and scotland for the receiving of a foreign invasion . l. c. just . who were these commissions sealed by ? mr. oates . my lord , the commissions of the great officers were sealed with the generals seal . l. c. just . who was that ? m oats , his name is johannes paulus de oliva : his seal sealed the commissions for the generals , major-generals , and great persons ; but those seals that sealed the several commissions to several inferior officers , were in the custody of the provincial . l. ch. just . can you name any one person that he hath sealed a commission to ? mr. oates . i can name one : to sir john gage , which commission i delivered my self . l. ch. just . what , of sussex ? mr. oates . yes , of sussex . mr. justice atkins , who did you receive the commission from ? mr. oates . my lord , when he went over , he left a great many blank patents to be filled up , and he left one ready sealed for a commission to sir john gage . this was delivered into my hands when he was absent , but it was signed by him , and delivered to me while he was in his visitation beyond the sea●● , but i dare swear it was his hand , as i shall answer it before god and the king. mr. just . atkins . who had it you from ? mr. oates . from mr. ashby , but by whitebreads appointment in his instructions which i saw and read . l. ch. just . what was the commission for ? mr. oates . to be an officer in the army . l. ch : just . did you see the instructions left for ashby ? mr. oates . i did see them and read them , and i did then as i always did , give it as my judgment , that it was more safe to poyson the king than to pistol or stab him . mr. just . bertue ▪ was the commission which you delivered to sir john gage from ashby or from whitebread ? mr. oates . i had it from ashby , but whitebread who was then beyond sea , had signed this commission before he went. my lord , i have something more yet to say , and that is as to mr. grove , that he did go about with one smith to gather peter pence , which was either to carry on the design , or to send them to rome . i saw the book wherein it was entred , and i heard him say that he had been gathering of it . grove , where was this ? mr. oates . in cock-pit-alley , where you know i lodged . grove , did i ever see you at your lodging . mr. oates . you saw me at my own door . l. ch. just . why , don't you know mr. oates ? grove . my lord , i have seen him before . lord. ch. just . why this 't is , ask a papist a question , and shall have a jesuitical anwer . mr. oates . i will convince the court that he does know me , by some circumstances . my lord , in the month of december last by the provincials order — l. ch. just . i would ask him first whether he does know you or no. do you know mr. oates ? grove , i have seen him before . l. chief just . have you been often in his company ? grove , no my lord. lord chief just . what do you call often ? have you been in his company seven or eight times ? ( for we must deal subtilly with such as you are , ) have you been in his company ten times ? grove , no. lord chief just . what say you to three times ? grove , yes , i believe i have seen him twice or thrice . lord chief just . where ? did you never see him at whitebreads ? grove , as , i hope to be saved , and before the eternal god , i did never . mr. oates . i will convince him and the court , that he does know me , and is well acquainted with me : in the month of december last i went to st. omers , i went first to the then provincials house to take my leave of him , and there i met with mr. grove , and he appointed to come to my lodging the next morning , near the red lyon in drury-lane , at one grigsons house , and he was so well acquainted with me then , that he had lent me eight shillings to hire the coach. lord chief just . did you lend him eight shillings ? grove . i did , my lord , i do not deny it . lord ch. just . how came you to do it , when it seems , if you say true , he was a stranger to you ? grove . i thought i should have it again . lord chief just . what , of him ? grove , yes . lord chief just . did he desire you to lend him the eight shillings ? grove , yes , he did my lord. mr. oates , then there is one time that he confesses he saw me . lord chief just . did you not know him before ? grove , i had no acquaintance with him , i had seen him . lord ch. just . how came you then to lend money to one you had no more acquaintance with ? grove , i knew i should go along with him to the coach , and then i thought i should have it again . lord chief just . mr. oates , were you going beyond sea then ? mr. oates , yes , my lord , i was : lord chief just . mr , oates , did you pay him that money ? mr. oates , no , my lord i did not . lord chief just . did you ask him so the money , and had you it ? grove , he did not pay it me . lord chief just . how then were you sure you should have it ? grove , he did order me to go to such a one for it ? lord chief just . who was that ? grove , mr. fenwick , i think . lord ch. just . then mr. o●●tes was known to you all , he was no such stranger to you as you would make ●● believe . mr. oates . thus he confesses three times he had seen me , once before he lent me the money , another time when he lent it and the third time the next day . and i will put him in mind of another time when he and i were in company , where o●●e brought in a note of what was done in the house of commons turned into burlesque , for they used to turn all that was done at the council , or at the parliament , or at the courts in westminster-hall into burlesque , and then translated it in french , and sent it to the french king , for him to laugh at too . but that by the way ; twice more he drank in my company at the red p●●sts in wild-street , and once more when he owned to me that he fired southwark . lord chief just . now by the oath that you have taken , did he own to you that he had fired southwark ? mr. oates . my lord , he did tell me that he with three irishmen did fire southwark , and that they had a thousand pounds given them for it , whereof he had four thousand pounds , and the other two hundred pounds a piece . lord chief just . now for mr. fenwick , do you know mr ▪ oats . fenwick , yes , my lord , i do . lord chief just . were you well acquainted with him ? speak plain . mr. oates , he was my father confessor , my lord , lord chief just . was he so ? were you his gonfessor . fenwick , i believe he never made any confession in his life . l. ch. just . yes , he hath made a very good one now . were you of his acquaintance mr. fenwick ? speak home , and don 't mince the matter . fenwick , my lord , i have seen him . lord ch. j. i wonder what you are made of : ask a protestant , an english one , a plai●● question , and he will scorn to come dallying with an evasive answer . fenw. my lord , i have been several times in his company . lord chief just . did you pay eight shillings for him ? fenwick , yes , i believe i did . l. c. j. how came you to do it ? fenw. he was going to st. omers . l. c. j. why , were you treasurer for the society ? fenw. no , my lord , i was not . l. c. j. you never had your eight shillings again , had you ? fenw. it is upon my book , my lord , if i ever had it . l. c. j. did mr. oates ever pay it again ? fenw. no , sure he was never so hone●● l. c. j. who had you it of then ? fenw. i am certain i had it not from him ; he did not pay it . l. c. j. how can you tell you had it then ? fenw. i do suppose i had it again , but not of mr. oates . l. c. j. had you it of ireland ? fenw. i do not know who i had it of , my lord , nor certainly whether i had it . l. c. j. why did you not ask mr. oates for it ? fenw. he was not able to pay●● l. c. j. why did you then lay it down for him ? fenw. because i was a f●● l. c. j. that must be the conclusion always : when you can't evade being pro●● knaves by answering directly , you will rather suffer your selves to be called foot 's . fenw. my lord , i have done more for him than that comes to ; for he came once●● me in a miserable poor condition , and said , i must turn again and betake my self to ●● minist●●r●● to get b●●ead , for i have eaten nothing these two days : and i then gave h●●●●i●●e shi●●lings to relieve his present necessity . mr. oates . my lord , i will answer to that , i was never in any such streights , i ●● ordered by the provincial to be taken care of by the procurator . fenw. you brought no such order to me . mr. oates . yes , mr. fenwick , you know there was such an order , and i never received so little in my life as five shillings from you : i have received and and shillings at a time , but never so little as five . l. c. j. you are more charitable than you thought for . fenw. he told me he had not eaten a bit in two days . mr. oates , i have indeed gone a whole day without eating , when i have been hurried about your trash ; but i assure you , my lord , i never wanted for any thing among them . l. c. just . perhaps it was fasting-day . l. ch. baron . my lord , their fasting-days are none of the worst . mr. oates . no , we commonly eat best on those days . l. c. j. have you any thing to ask him any of you ? whitebread , my lord , will you be pleased to give me leave to speak for my self . mr. just . atkins , it is not your time yet to make your full defence , but if you will ask him any questions you may . whitebread . i crave your mercy , my lord. l. c. j. will you ask him any questions ? fenw. did not you say that you were at my chamber the th of april with the resolve of the consult ? mr. oates . that resolve i did then carry to your chamber . fenw. then was he himself at st. omers . l. c. j. the difference of old flile and new stile may perhaps make some alteration in the circumstance . whitebread . but , my lord , he hath sworn he was present at several consultations in april and may , but from november till june he was constantly at st. omers . l c. j. if you can make it out that he was at st , omers all april and may , then what he hath said cannot be true . ireland . he himself hath confessed that he was at st. omers : l. c. j. if you mean by confession , what stands upon the evidence he hath given , i 'le remember you what that was . he says he came to st. omers . mr. oates . will your lordship give me leave to satisfie the court : in the month of december or november , i went to st. omers ; i remained there all january , february , march , and some part of april : then i came over with the fathers to the consult that was appointed the th of that month . fenw. did you go back again ? mr. oates . yes . fenw. when was that ? mr. oates . in the month of may , presently after the consult was over . fenw. and we can prove by abundance of witnesses that he went not from st. omers all that month . l. c. j. you shall have what time you will to prove what you can ; and if you can prove what you say , you were best fix it upon him ; for he saith he was here at the consults in april and may ; if you can proove otherwise pray do . fenw. we can bring an authentick writing ( if there be any such ) from st omers under the seal of the colledge , and testified by all the colledge , that he was there all the while . l. c. j. mr. fenwick that will not do ; for the first , if it were in any other case besides this , it would be no evidence , but i know not what you cannot get from st. omers , or what you will not call authenthick . fenwick does your lordship think there is no justice out of england ? l. c. j. it is not , nor cannot be evidence here . fenwick , it shall be signed by the magistrates of the town . l. c. j. what there ? fenwick . yes there ▪ l c. j. you must be tryed by the laws of england , which sends no piece of fact out of the country to be tryed . fenwick but the evidence of it may be brought hither . l. c. j. then you should have brought it , you shall have a fair tryal ; but we must not depart from the law or the way of tryal , to serve your purposes . you must be tryed according to the law of the land. mr. j. atkins , such evidences as you speak of , we would not allow against you ; and therefore we must not allow it for you ▪ whitebread , may this gentleman be put to this , to produce any two witnesses that see him in town at that time . mr. oates i will give some circumstances and what tokens i have to prove my being h●●re : father warner , sir tho : preston , father williams , and sir john warner , they came hither with me ●●om s●● omers , there was one nevil , &c. i cannot reckon them all . l. c. j. you have named enough . mr. oates , but to convince them , there was a lad in the house that was got to the end of his rhetorick ; this lad was whipt and turned out of the house , and had lost all hi●● money father williams did re-imburs●● this lad in order to his bringing home , i think the lads name was hils●●ey , o●● som●● s●●ch ●●●e . and we came up to london together . l. c. j. what say you to this circumstance ? whitebread , my lord , he knew that two such came to town , but he was not with them . l. c. j. you are now very good at a negative i see , how can you tell that ? whitbread , my lord , he could not come . l. c. j. how can you tell he could not come , whitebread , i can tell it very well , for he had no order to come nor did come . l. c. j. how can you undertake to say that he did not com●● ? whitebread , because he had no order to come . l. c. j. is that all your reason , where were you then ? whitebread , i was here . l. c. j ▪ how do you know he was not here . whitebread , he had no orders to come . l. c. j. have you any other circumstance mr. oates to prove that you were here ther ? mr. oates , my lord , when i came to london , i was ordered to keep very close , and i lay at mr. groves house , let him deny it if he can , i le tell you who lay there then . groves . did you ever ye at my house . mr. oates , the●●e l●●y a flax●●n h●●i●●'d gentlemen , i forgot his name , but i le tell you who lay there besides ; that is strange , that was the late provincial . l. c. j. did strange ever lye at your house ? groves yes , my lord he did l. c. j. did he lye th●●re in april o●● m●●y ? grove , no , he did not in ●●i●●her of them ▪ lr. c. j you will m●●e that appear . grove , yes , that i can by all the house . l. c. j. have you any more questions to ask him ? if you have , do : if you can prove this upon him ▪ that he was ab●●e●● , and n●●t in england in april or may , you have made a great defence for your selves , and it shall be remembred for your advantage , when it comes to your turn : in the mean t●●me , if you have no more to say to him , call another witness ▪ let mr. oates sit down again , and have some refreshment . mr. serjant baldwin , we will now call mr. bedlow , my lord. the●● mr. bedlow was sworne . mr. serj : baldwin . mr. bedlow , pray doe you tell my lord and the jury what you know of any design of ki●●ling the king ▪ and by whom . mr bedlow . my lord. i have been five years almost employed by the society of jesuits and the english monks in paris , to carry and bring letters between them from england and to england ▪ for the promoting of a design tending to the subversion of t●●e government and the extirpating of the protestant religion , to that degree ( which was always concluded on , in all their consults wherein i was , ) that they would not leave any member of any here●●ick in england , that should s●●rvive to tell in the kingdom hereafter that there ever was any such religion in englands as the protestant religion — here whitebread would have interrupted him . my lord i am so well satisfied in their denyalls , that i cannot but believe they who can give a dispensa●●ion and have received the sacrament to kill a king , and destroy a whole kingdom , doe not scruple to give a dispensation for a little lye , to promote such a design , for so much ●●s this expiates any lye or greater crime , sir cr. levines , pray sir will you be pleased , to tell your whole knowledge concerning the prisoners at the b●●rr . mr. bedlow , the first le●●er ●●●●rr●●e●● wa●● from mr. harcourt , at his house next door to the arch in dukes-street . he hath been procurator for the jesuits about . years . h●● employed me first and sent for me ov●●r , for i was the●● l●…nt in flanders , and coming home to receive my pay that was due to me — l. c. j. how long is it a goe ? mr. bedlow . michaelmus last was . years , when i came to dunkirke ▪ i went to visit the english n●●nnery there , & the lady abbesse finding me very plyable & inclineable , made very much of me , and i did adhe●●e to her ; sh●● k●●pt ●● . we●●kes in the covent , & afterwards when i went away recommended me to sir john warner as an instrument fit to be employed in the carrying of letters , or doing any th●●ng that would promote the design against england he kept me at s. omers a forthn●●g●●t , and a●… me to father harcourt to be instructed in my employment , it was th●●n win●●● , the next spring he sends me into england with divers letters , whereby mr. harcourt i was empl●●yed to carry several letters to morton and doway , and o●●her places , that summe●● i was s●●nt into england without an answer , but afterwards in ( ) which was the ●●xt summer i was to carry another pacquett of l●●t●●s to the monks at paris , who s●●nt it to other english monks in france . l. c. j. who sent that pacquet of letters in ? m●● ▪ bedlow ▪ i had it from mr : harcourt , and it was written by harcourt , pritchard & carry . l. c. j. to whom ? mr. bedlow , to the engl●●sh monk●● i●● france , and in it there was a letter ●●o ●● ch●●se . upon the receipt of these l●●t●●ers at paris ●● ch●●se had a co●●sul●●tion with the m●●nk●● , 〈…〉 a french bishop or two about them , i did not then speak french ●●●ugh to ●…d what it was they said , but it was interpreted to me by mr ▪ stapleton an english monk , who told me that it was a letter from my lord bellasis and others of the catholick religion , english gentlemen who were contrivers of the plot here , to satisfie them in what state things stood in england as to popery . i was sent back again with a pacquett of letters directed to mr . vaughan of courtfield in monmouthshire . l. c. j. from whom was that ? mr. bedl●●w , from the english monks at paris . from that consultation i went to ponthois . i there received other letters to carry into england . i had a course to open their letters , and read what was in them ; and in those letters was contained , that the prayers of that house were for the prosperity of that design , and they would not fail to be at the consultation at of warwickshire gentlemen . i fell sick at monmouth , and mr. vaughan sent to me a iesuit to confess me , but i was well before he came , and so was ▪ not confessed by him , i now come to the later times . l. c. j ▪ you must speak it over to the jury , that they and the prisoners may hear you . mr. bedlow , the th . of may . which was last year , i was sent over with an other pacquet of le●●ters . i had no letters of consequence forward , and therefore did not call then at wotton , but i called upon the lady albesse at dunkirk , and i went thence to bridges and to ghent , where i had some letters for the english n●●nns , which i delivered to them , when i came to doway , i found there that the monks were gone , that was sheldon , stapleton and latham , but the letters were directed to paris , and therefore i made hast , and at cambray i overtooke them . and the letters were to give an account of the consultation held in the gallery at sommerset-house : all tending to the destruction of the protestant religion , and killing the king , but i doe not think fit to declare here who were the persons that were present at that consultation . at cambray they were very joyful that there was so good a proceeding in england . at paris when the letters were shewed , there was a letter written in a language which i did not understand , but ▪ as i was told in that letter , they were charged in paris by my lord bellasis , that they did not proceed according to their promise to them in england ; but said mr. stapleton to me , my lord bellasis nor the society in england need not to write thus to us , for we are not so backward but we can lend men , and money ▪ and armes too , and will upon occasion . from thence they sent me to spain with a letter to an irish father : i did overtake him at sa mora. from thence i went with another letter to the rector of a colledge of irish jesuits in salamanca , by their contrivance i was sent to st. jago in spain , where was another colledge of irish jesuits : there i staid till i had an answer to sir willi : godolphin , and when i had the answer to that letter , i went for the letter from the rector at salamanca , the jesuits there told me , they would take care to send their own answer another way . and when they had made me that promise i came away for england , and landed at mill-ford-haven . all this reaches to none of these persons in particular . but what i now shall say shall be about them , only it was necessary , i should speak of what i have said , l. c. j. the meaning of all this is only to shew the jury and satisfie them , that he was an agent for these men , and hath been employed by them for five years together , and he names you the particular places whither he hath been sent , to shew you the reasons of his knowledge in this matter , and upon what account he comes to be informed of this design . mr. bedlow . having received the newes of that country , i did there take water and landed againe at p●●nsans , and when i came to london i gave the letter to mr. harcourt : what was in that pacquet i cannot particularly tell , for i was not so inquisitive a●● to look into the contents of it , but i know it was tending as all the rest did to the carrying on of this plot , afterwards i was employed by mr. harcourt and mr. coleman to go to ●●me parts of england , to communicate the letters to some of the popish party . l. c. j. now turn to the jury . mr. bedlow . the summer was past in the doing of that ; in the beginning of august last , there was a consultation , and a close one , at mr. harcourts chamber , so as that they did not permit me to know any thing of it , i went out of town for a fortnight , and when i returned , i understood there had been such a meeting , i charged them with their privacy in it , and asked what was the private design of that consultation , they said , it was something i should know in time : that it did not signifie much at present , but in time i should know it . but then i understood by pritchard , who was more my confident , than any of the rest : that it was a design to kill the king : that mr. pickering and grove had undertaken it a great while , and that they had been endeavouring a long while to bring it to pass . fenw. where was this meeting , and when ? mr. bedlow . last august at harcourts chamber . fenwick . who were present the●●e ? mr. bedl , be pleased to give me leave to go on , i 'le tell you by and by . then i understood , as i said , that it was to kill the king , but that pickering and grove failing of it , they had hired four ruffians , , that were to go to windsor , and to do it there , and that if i would come the next day , i should hear from mr. coleman the effect . when i came there i found mr. coleman was gone , but pritchard said there were some sent to windsor , and that coleman was going after them , and that he had given a messenger a guinny that was to carry the money to them ; and he would presently be after them , for fear they should want opportunity to effect their design . then i discoursed them , why they kept their design so long hid from me ? they said it was a resolve of the society , and an order of my lord bellasis that none should know it but the society , and ●●hose that were actors in it . i seemed satisfied with that answer at present . about the latter end of august or the beginning of septem●●er ( but i believe , it was the latter end of august ) i came to harcourts chamber , and there was ireland , and pritchard , & pickering and grove . l. c. j. what part of august was it ? mr. bedlow . the latter end . l. c. j. do you say it positively , that it was the latter end of august ? mr. bedlow . my lord , it was in august , i do not swear positively to a day . l. c. j. but you say , it was in august . ireland . and that we were there present ? mr. bedlow . you were there and mr. grove and mr. pickering . ireland . did you ever see me before ? mr. bedlow . you were there present there , and grove , & pickering , and pritchard , a●●d fogarthy , and harcourt , and i. l. c. j. what did you talk of the●●e ? m●● . bedl. that the ruffians missing of killing the king at windsor , pick●●ring and grove hould go on , and that conyers should be joyned with them ; and that wa●● to assassinate he king in is morning walks at newmarket : and they had taken it so strongly upon ●●hem , that they were very eager upon it : and m. grove was more forward than the ●●●t ; and said , since it could not be done clandestinely , it should be attempted openly . ●●d that those that do fall had the glory to die in a good cause . but ( said he ) if it be ●●scovered , the discovery can never come to that heighth , but their party would be ●…g enough to bring it to pass . l. c. j. and you swear , ireland was there ? mr. bedlow . he was there my lord. l. c. j. and heard all this ? mr. bedlow . yes , my lord ; and so did grove and pickering and the rest . ireland . my lord i never saw him before in my life . l c. j. what was the reward that you were to have , for your pains in this business ? mr. bedlow . my lord , the reward that i was to have , ( as it it was told me by harcourt ) was very considerable : i belonged to one particular part of the society . there are others , and i presume , ●●hey each kept their particular messenger . l. c. j. what was mr. grove to have ? mr. bedlow . grove was to have fifteen hundred po●●nd if he escaped , and to be a co●●tinual favourite , and respected as a great person by all the church . l. c. j. what was pickering to have ? mr. bedlow . he was to have so many masses , i can●●ot presume to tell the numbe●● but they were to be as many as at twelve pence a mass should come to that money : the masse ▪ were to be communicated to all the jesuits beyond the seas , that when he h●● done it he might be sent away immediately . l. c. j. what can you say of any of the rest ? mr. bedlow . my lord , i do not charge any more , but them three ? l. c. j. what say you to whitebread ? mr. bedlow . they have said that he was very active in the plot , but i know it no●● l. c. j. that is not any evidence against him . what can you say as to fenwick ? mr. bedlow , no more than i have said , as to mr. whitebread : i only know him sight . l. c. j. then he charges only these three upon oath , ireland , pickering and grove . ireland , do you know sir john warner ? mr. bedlow . i know father warner at st. omers , and sir john warner at wotton st. omers . ireland . he named sir john warner to be at paris . mr. bedlow . it was sheldon i spoke of ( my lord ) at paris . i●●eland . at least you are certain that i was present at that consultation . mr. bedlow . yes , i am certain you were there . i●●eland . can you produce any witness that you ever spoke to me before in y●● li●●e . mr. serj. baldwin . do you know any thing of mr , whitebreads being present at of the consults ? mr. bedlow . i do know that mr , whitebread and mr. fenwick both have been ●…ral times at consultations ; but i do not know what the particular resolves of ●● consultations were . l. c. j. did you ever hear them speak any thing in particular ? mr. bedlow . no , i have never heard them speak any thing in particular . l. c. j. whe●●e have you seen mr. fenwick ? mr. bedlow , i have seen mr. fenwick at mr. harcourts chamber , and i have ●● heard him talkt of , and it hath been told me , that nothing was done without mr. ●…wick . whitebread , are you sure you know us ? mr. bedlow . i do not say , you are the man that employed me , you are the man i was least acquainted with , of all the society , but i have seen you there . ireland . can you bring any one that can testifie it ? l. c. j. he must then have brought one of your selves , and it may be , he cannot produce any such one . ireland . nor no one else , except such a knight of the pest as mr. oates . l. c. j. you must be corrected for that mr. ireland : you shall not here come to abuse the kings evidence . nothing appears to us that reflects upon mr. oates's testimony ; and we must not suffer any such sort of language . mr. just . atkins . take of his credit as much as you can by proof , but you must not abuse him by ill language . mr. finch . can you tell the court and the jury when it was that by agreement grove should have the fifteen hundred pound ? mr. bedlow . he was to have it put into a friends hands . l. c. j. do you know that friends name ? mr. bedlow . no my lord , i do not . mr. finch ▪ do you know when that was to be delivered out to him ? mr. bedlow . as to the particular time of their agreement i do not know it . mr ▪ finch . but this he says , that when the agreement was made , he was to have fifteen hundred pounds . l. c. j. and he says this ireland was in august last with pickering , and grove , and others , at a consult where he wa●● also . ireland . but what if i prove , i was not in london all august last , from the beginning to the end ? l. c. j. you heard them talk of this matter in august at harcourts chamber , you say : what , did they talk of it , as a matter they had agreed ? mr. bedlow . my lord , they brought it in ▪ as being balked in their design of killing the king at windsor ; and because that had not taken the effect they intended it , they should have conyers joyned with them to do it at newmarket . mr. finch . did they tell you when , and where the agreement was made ? l. c. j. no , he speaks not of that ; but they talkt of the failer at windsor : and therefore they did conclude that conyers should be joyned to them to do it at newmarket . mr. bedlow . yes , my lord. l. c. j have you any more to say ? mr. bedlow . my lord , i would only say this ; if i had any to prove what i say , they must be parties as well as these persons . ireland . my lord , i will prove , that i was not in town in august all the month , by twenty witnesses : i 'le bring those that saw me in staffordshire , and sp●●ke with me all august . l. c. j. have you any more to ask him ? whitebread . no. mr. serj. baldwin . swear mr. james bedlow . and he was sworn . ireland ▪ he does say , that he was familiar with me , and several other persons here ; and therefore i desire he may specifie the place and the company . mr. william bedlow . i do not say , there was a familiarity ; for i was a stranger to that part of the society . l. c. j. you must take him right mr. ireland ; he hath not said that he was of your familiar acquaintance . mr. bedlow . i have seen you often sir. mr. ireland . where ? mr. bedlow . at monsieur le faires . ireland . where was that , mr. bedlows at somerset-house . — ireland , was there any one present besides . mr. bedlow . yes , several other priests and jesuites of sumersethouse . jreland . name one ? mr. bedlow . seignior perrare . ireland . you say , you saw me and perrare together at somersethouse . i suppose , if seignior parrare may be brought hither — mr. bedlow . my lord perrare is a priest in orders , and without doubt , is in this business . l. c. j. if he did see you , he must see you in such company as you keep , they were priests and iesuits , and of your own religion ; and we know very well what answers we are like to be put off with by men of your own perswasion at this time of day jreland , my lord if no bodyes oath can be taken that is of another perswasion than the church of england , it is hard . l. c. j. pray mind , you do not object ingeniously , for you say , this witness swears he saw me in such company , why does he not produce them to testifie it ? why , he does not come prepared to produce them ; if he should , we know well how you are concern'd one for another at this time ; and we can hardly expect they should make true answer . but notwithstanding if you will produce this father perrare , ( he cannot be sworn because t' is against the law , but ) his testimony shall be heard , & let it go as far as it can . mr. bedlow . if your lordship pleases , my lord , i would convince him that he does know me . have you not been , sir , at somerset-house . ●reland , yes , i have . mr. bedlow . do you know le-fair and perrare ? ireland , yes , but i never saw you in their company in somerset house in my life , above once or twice . mr. bedlow . yes you were twice at le fairs . l. c. j. where is that le fair , you would do well to produce him ? mr. bedlow , my lord , he is gone away , and is one against whom the kings proclamation is out . l. c. j. you keep such company as run away , and then you require him to produce them , whom the king's proclamation cannot bring in . ireland . i keep none but honest company . mr. bedlow . if your lordship pleases , i have one thing more that is very material to speakes , at the same time that there was a discourse about these three gentlemen's being to destroy the king at newmarket , at the same time there was a discourse of a designe to kill several noble p●rsons , the particular parts assigned to every one . knight was to kill the earl of shaftesbury , pritchard , the duke of buckingham , oneile , the earl ossery , o bryan , the duke of ormond . l. c. just . well , will you have any more of this ? mr. finch . you say , you saw mr. ireland say masse , where did you see him ? mr. bedllow . not mr. ireland , but mr. fenwick , i have seen him say masse , and at wild-house . mr. oates . my lord i did omit a consult wherein there was a design laid of taking away the duke of ormond's life , and of a rebellion that was to be raised in ireland . my lord , in the month of january last , there came letters from arch-bishop talbot to london , which letters were perused by fenwick and ireland , and whitebread , and when they were perused , they were sent and communicated to the fathers at st. omers . the contents of those letters were thus , that the catholicks had a fair prospect of effecting their design in the kingdom of ireland . and this letter was inclosed in a letter signed by whitebread , ireland , fenwick , and others ( i name no mans name that is not here . ) l , c. just . you saw the letter . mr. oates . yes , i did see it , and read it ; wherein they did give thanks unto god , that he was pleased to prosper their design so fairly in ireland , and withall they did say , that they would not leave a stone unturned , to root out that abominable heresie out of that kingdom ▪ now what that abominable heresie was , i have nothing bur a conjecture . l c. just . we all know what that is well enough ▪ there needs no proof of that . m. r. oat●●s . jn the month of august , fenwick ▪ a little before he went to st. om●●rs , on the one and twentieth of august , ( as i think it was ) that week that barholomew fair begun on ) as i take it , he was then going to fetch home the provincial , and to carry some students with him , and he went unto st. omers the monday following ; but then there was a consult ▪ and at that consult , fenwick did consent to the contrivance of the death of the duke of ormond , and for the rebellion that was to be raised in irela●●d after his death . and he did approve of the four jesuits that were to kill my lord of ormond , and did consent to send fogarthy down to the arch-bishop of dublin , lin case the ●●our good fathers did not hit the business , mr. whitebread my lord did consent when he came over as appears by their entry books , for there came a letter from him dated as from st. omers , but i concluded it did not come from thence because it paid but two penc●● . whitebread , who was it that writ that letter . mr. oates , my lord this letter was dated as the later part of august , and dated as from st. omers , but the post mark upon it was but two pen●● ▪ to b●● paid for it , so that i do conclude thence , mr. whitebread , was then at esq leigh's house in but in that letter he did like the proposal that was made about killing the duke of ormond , in that consult , and the letter was signed with his own hand . l. c. just . i would gladly see that letter ? mr. oates . if i could see it , i could know it ▪ l. c. j. you have not that letter ? mr. oates . no ▪ but they kept a book wherein they registred all their resolutions , and there it was entred ▪ l. j. c. you upon your oath say ▪ that he as superior of them did keep a book wherein they registred all their consults . mr. oates . yes , my lord. l. c. just . you would do well to shew us your book , mr. whitebread . whitebread . we never kept any . mr. oates . the consult did , for though the superior have an absolute power over ●● subject ; yet they never do any thing of consequence without the consult . and this book was kept by the superior , and never opened 〈…〉 the consult and therein all the passages were registred . l. c. j. produce your book , and we 〈…〉 whether you cannot catch mr. oates in ●●omething or other . mr. bedlow . my lord , that book i hav●… therein all their consults are registred ▪ l. c. j. was there books kept by 〈…〉 mr. bedlow . yes my lord , all the consults did keep bookes , and mr. lang●●orn●● ▪ was the person that registred all into one . l. c. j. if an hundred witnesses swore it , they will deny it , well , will you have any more ? mr. s. baldwin . my lord we will now call mr. james bedlow , this gentlemans brother to shew you ▪ that these sort of persons did resort to him frequently . l. c. j. are you sworn s●● ? mr. james bedlow . y●●s my lord , i am . l. c. j. then le●● me ask you one short question . do you know mr. ireland ? m●● . james bedlow . n●● . l. c. j. do you know pickering or grove . mr. james bedlow . i have heard of them . l. c. j. did your brother know any thing of them ? mr. j. bedlow . as for the conspiracy of killing the king , i know nothing of it ; b●● about his knowledg of priests and j●●suits , and the converse he had beyond sea , that can speak to . and i have very often heard these mens names named . l. c. j. in what nature did he talk of them ? mr. j. bedlow . i know nothing of the plot , ●●nd as for any d●●sign ▪ i know not w●● my brother knew , b●●t i have heard him talk of them . l. c. j. how did he talk of them ? mr. j. bedlow . he mentioned them as his acquaintance , the jesuits there did ask 〈…〉 questions about them . l. c. j. and did it appear to you they were of his acquaintance . mr. j. bedlow . but i understood nothing of the ●●lot ●● design , by the oath 〈…〉 taken . l. c. j but did he speak as if he knew any of them ? mr. j. bedlow . for ●…n knowledg that my brother had of them i cannot 〈…〉 but i have often heard him talk of them as people , i thought he kn●●w . mr. finch . did you know , that when he ca●●e over from beyond sea , that hi●… was frequented by any ●●d by whom ? mr. j. bedlow , yes ▪ there were many priests 〈…〉 jesuits came to him ▪ mr. finch . did your brother receive any money from the●● ? mr. j. bedlow , yes my lord , i have fetcht many score of pounds for my brother 〈…〉 them . l. c. j. the use , g●●ntlemen , that the kings council make of this evidence , is only shew , that his brother m●● ▪ bedlow was conversant in their affairs , in that he hath 〈…〉 many a score of ●…ing of their busines●● . sir cr. levings , pr●●y , ●●●m whom had your brother that money ? m●● . j. bedlow i have proved that from the goldsmiths thems●●lves that paid it , 〈…〉 the duke of monmouth , my lord chanc●●lor , and lord treasurer . mr ▪ finch ▪ have you received any consi●●erable ●●● at a time ? mr. bedlow , yes 〈…〉 mr. finch , how muc●● ? mr. j. bedlow , fifty or threescore pounds at a 〈…〉 mr. finch , of wh●●m ? mr. j. bedlow , of priests and j●●suits . m●● . finch , for whom ? mr. j. bedlow , for my brother . l. c. j. will you have any more evidence ? mr. serj. baldwyn , yes : my lord , the next evidence we produce , is concerning a 〈…〉 ●●ere was a letter written by one mr. peters , that is now a prisoner , to one tonstall a jesuit , and this letter does mention , that there was a meeting appointed by order of mr. whitebread to be at london . l. c. j. what is that to them , and how came you by it ? mr. serj. baldwin . peters is now in prison for things of this nature ; and you have he●●rd of one harcourt , and out of his study this letter was taken . mr. w. bedlow . my lord , may i not have liberty to withdraw , my head akes so extreamly , i cannot endure it . l. c. j. mr. bedlow , you may sit down , but we can't part with you yet . ireland . i desire , my lord , that his brother may be asked , how long he had known me . l. c. j. can you recollect by the discourses you have heard , how long he might have known ireland ? mr. j. bedlow . no , my lord , it was out of my way . l. c. j. but he did talk of ireland ? mr. j. bedlow . yes , my lord , he did . ireland . as being where , in what place ? mr. j. bedlow . i cannot tell . ireland . he named one place three years ago , it was at paris . l. c. j. but he does not say that you were there , but that you were familiarly talk'd of there ; so that the meaning is , they were acquainted with you : and this is only brought to shew , that it is not a new-taken-up thing by mr. bedlow , though you seemed never to have known any such man ; yet he swears , saith he , i have heard such persons talkt of as my brothers acquaintance . ireland . if his brother had talkt of me three years ago , why then he must have known me three years ago . l. c. j. ●●e ask him that question : how long is it since you knew him ? mr. w. bedl. i have known him but since august this last summer ; but my lord , i talkt five , and four years ago , of several english monks and jesuits that were then at rome , that i never knew in my life . l. c. j. his answer then i●● th●● , saith his brother , i have heard him talk of them three years ago ; i then asked bedlow how long he had known them ? saith he , i did not know them three years ago , though i did talk of them three years ago ; for we have talkt of many that we never saw in our lives ▪ so it seems he had occasion to make use of your names frequently , and joyn them with these , of some he knew better : but he never knew you t●●ll august last ; but he did discourse of you three years ago , as known for such sort of persons . ireland ▪ he must hear some body speak of us , as being in some place or another . mr. w. bedlow . i will satisfie you in that , we talk of some now in england , that are to be sent a year hence . l. c. j. if you can produce but ha●●court and le faire , they will do you great service now . mr. w. bedlow . my lord , a●● for example , father pritchard is confessor to such a gentleman in england now thi●● year ; a year hence we m●●t ●●●d such a one hither , and he must go back . and we may talk of th●● person as i●● england two years before . l. c. j. you need not trouble your selves about that . mr. ireland , you shall have a fair tryal , but you will not have cunning or art enough to deceive the jury , nor will mr. whitebread have learning enough to baffle the court. then mr. w. bedlow and his brother withdrew . mr. serj. baldwyn . my lord , the next evidence that we shall give , as i said , is a letter from one peters to one tonstall , and this we will bring home to mr ▪ whitebread ; for it is an invitation to be at the consu●●t held in london the th of april ; and it was written about that very time , to wit ▪ the d of april . it was written from london , and it mentions , that mr. whitebread did fi●● the meeting at that time . we 'll tell you how we came by the letter , mr. harcourt , who is one of the principal persons here , and at whose house was the meeting you heard o●● , he himself is fl●●d away , when they came to look after him upon the discovery that was made : and mr. bradley who was the messenger to seize upon him , did according to direction search his study , and did there find this letter , which we conceive , my lord , to be very good evidence , this harcourt being a party , and one at whose hou●●e the last meeting was , and others was . we do conceive a ●●etter from one of that party , bearing date about the same time , concerning mr. whitebreads summons , who was master of the company , is a very good evidence against them . l. c. j. ●●f you had found it in mr. whitebreads custody , you say something . mr. j●●st . bertue , my brother puts it so ▪ we find a letter directed to mr. whitebread , let the matter of it be what it will , it is found among harcourts papers . mr. serj. baldwin , no , my lord , we find a letter from one mr. peters , now a prisoner , directed to mr. tonstal concerning the consult summoned by whitebread , and this we find in harcourts possession . l. c. j. i can't understand how this may affect mr. whitbread . m. finch . pray , my lord , if your lordship please , this is the use we make of this letter ; we do not produce it as ano●●er evidence of this design , but to fortifie that part of the evidence which hath already been given ; that there was a consult summoned at that time , and to be held with all tht privacy that could be , to prevent discovery . and this is the paper , that we find in the custody of harcourt , one of the conspirators , who is fled for it . l. c. j. look you , mr. finch , if you use it not against any particular person , but as an evidence in general , that there was a plot amongst them , you say right enough ; but it cannot ●●e evidence against any one particular person of the prisoners at the bar. mr ▪ finch . my lord , it can affect no particular person ; but we only use it in the general , and we pray it may be rea●● . l. c. j. gentlemen of the jury , before you hear the letter read , i would say this to you . let them have fair play , whatsoever they me●●e unto ●●thers , we will shew them justice . they shall have as fair play upon their tryals as any persons whatsoever . the thing that is offered to be given in evidence , is a letter written by one peters , a prisoner for this plot ▪ and directed to one tonstal a jesuit , and this is found in harcourts chamber , a priest that is fled , and one whom the king hath commanded to render himself by his proclamation ; but he does not . now in that letter there is a discourse of a design and plot on foo●● . this cannot be evidence to charge any o●●e particular person of these ; but only to satisfie you and all the wo●●ld that those letters and papers that are ●●o●●d amongst their own priests , do fortifie the testimony of mr. oates , that there is a general plot : 't is not applied to any particular person . mr. oates . the day before the consult met , mr. whitebread did ask mr. peters whether he had summoned the consult according to his directio●● . mr. peters told him yes , he had writ into warwick-shire , and worcester-shire . whitebread , when was this ? mr oates , the day before the consult me●● ▪ whitebread , did you hear me ask mr. peters ? mr. oates , yes , i did hear you ; and i did hear him say he had done it , now my lord this letter that is found in harcourts study , shewes that mr. whitebread had directed mr peters in this consult . mr. serj. baldwin , pray swear sir tho : doleman to shew how he came by it ▪ which was done . mr. serj baldwin , sir tho doleman , what do you know of this letter . sir thomas doleman , this letter in my hand was taken amongst harcourts papers in a great bag of papers ; and searching them . i did find this letter amongst the rest ▪ then the letter was shewn to mr. oates . l. c ▪ j. is that mr. peters hand ? mr. oates ▪ yes my lord ▪ it is . l c. j. were you acquainted with his hand ? mr. oates , yes my lord , i have often read it in letters . l. c. j. do you know tonstall ? mr. oates , my lord i do not know him by that name ; if i did see him perhaps i might ; i know men better by their faces . sir cr. levines , pray read it . cl. of the crown , this is dated february d . ( ) and superscribed thus ( these for his honourd friend mr. william tonstal at burton . honoured dear sir . i have but time to convey these following particulars to you ▪ first , i am to give you notice , that it hath seemed fitting to ●●ur master consult , prov. &c. to fix the st day of april next stylo viteri . for the meeting at london of our congregation , on which day all those that have a suffrage are to be present th●●re , that they may be ready to give a beginning to the same on the th . which is the next day after st. georges day ; you are warned to have , jus suffragij , and therefore if your occasions should not permit you to be present , you are to signifie as much , to the end others in their rank●●●● ordered to supply your absence : every one is minded also , not to hasten to london long before the time appointed , nor to appear much about the town till the meeting be over ▪ le●●t occasion should be given to suspect the design . finally , secresie , as to the ●●ime & pl●●ce , is much recomended to all those that receive summons , as it will appear o●● it s own nature necessary . l. c. j. so it was very necessary indeed . cl. of the crown ▪ there is more of it my lord. tertio pro domino solono disco . b●●n●●fact . prov. luniencis . i am strai●●ned for time , that i can only assure you , i shall be much glad of obliging you any ways ▪ sir , your servant edward peters . pray my service where due , &c. l. c. j. you know nothing of this letter , mr. whitebread ? whitebread , no my lord nothing at all . l. c. j. nor you mr. ireland . ireland , t is none of my letter my lord. l. c. j. did you never hear of it before ? ireland , n●●t th●●t i know o●● in particular . l. c. j. w●●ll have you do●● with the evidence for the king ? mr. serj. baldwyn , p●●ay sir thomas doleman ▪ will you tell my lord , did m●● ▪ oates give in this testemony of the consul●● ▪ to be the th ▪ of april , before this le●●●● wa●●●●ound l. c. j. how long had you known him before that time . s. paine , my lord , i knew him ; for he came often to our house when i lived at ●● groves ▪ he wa●● the man ●●hat broke ●●pen the packet of letters , that my master carri●● about a●… and he ●●ealed all the packets that went beyond the seas , and he op●●ed them 〈…〉 when the answers returned back again . ire●●●d , now m●●st ●●l the people of ●●y lodging come and witness that i was ●● of my lodging all august last . l. c. j. call them . ireland , there is one ann ireland . l. c. j. cryer ▪ call ●●er . cryer , a●● ireland , here she is . l. c. j. come mistris ▪ what can you say concerning your brothers being out of t●● in august . a●●n ireland my lord on saturday the third of august he set out to go into stafford●… l. c. j. how long did he continue there a ireland till it was a fortnight before michaelmas . l c. j. how can you remember that it was just the d. of august . a. ireland , i remember it by a very good circumstance because on the wed●… before , my brother and my mother and i were invited out to dinner we staid the●● night and all thursday night and friday night my brother came home , and on saturd●● set out f●●r staffordshire . ●● . c. j. where was it maid that you saw him . s. paine i saw him go in at the door of their own house l. c. j. when was that . s paine about a week before i went with my lord chamberlaine to windsor ●● was a week after the king went thither . l. c. j. that must be about the or and are you sure you saw him . s. paine yes my lord i am sure i saw him . l. c. j. do you know this maid mr. ireland . ireland , i do not know her my lord. l. c. j. she knows you by a very good token . you used to break open the lette●● her masters house and to seal them . s. paine he knows me very well for i have carried several letters to him that ●● from the carrier as well as those that came from beyond sea ▪ l. c. j. they will deny any thing in the world. ireland , i profess i doe not know her . twenty people may come to me and yet ●● know them , and she haveing been mr. groves servant may have brought me letters ●● yet my lord i remember her no●● , but here is my mother elenor ireland that can testif●● same . l. c. j. call her then ▪ cryer ▪ elenor ireland ▪ elenor ireland , h●●re l. c. j. can you tell when your son went out of town . e. ireland . he went out of town the third of august towards staffordshire . ireland my lord , there is mr. charles gif●●ord will prove that i was a week after th●…gining of september , and the lat●●r ●●nd of august in staffordshire . l. c. j. that will not doe for she said she saw you i●● london about the th , or ●●● august , & she makes it out by a circum●●ance which is better evidence then if she had 〈…〉 and swore the precise day wherein she saw him , i should not have been sati●●fied unl●… 〈◊〉 given me a good account why she did know it to be such a day she does it by circum●●●●ces by which we must calculate that she saw you about the th . or th . day . she 〈…〉 to my lord arlington's at such a day , a week after the king went to windsor ▪ and that was about the th . and she saw you a week before she went to my lord arlingtons , which must be the th or th . you say you went out of town the third of august , who can swear you did not come back again . ireland . all the ●●ouse can testify i did not come to my lodging . e. ireland . he went out of town the third of august , and did not return till a forthnight before michealmas . l ▪ c. j. did you lye at his house ? e. ireland . i did then my lord l ▪ c. j. what all that while ? e. ireland . yes my lord. d. c. j. so did your daughter too , did she ? e. ireland . yes she did . ireland . there are others that did see me the latter end of august in staffordshire . l. c. j. and you would feign have crampt him up between the . and . and then ●…ossible you might be in staffordshire . ireland ; if i might have been permitted to send in for such witness as i would have ●●ad i ●●ould have brought them . mr. recorder . why have you not a note of what witnesses you are to call , why don't you call them according to that note . ireland i had that but this morning . l. c. j. why did not you send for them before to have them ready . mr. recorder 't is his sister that brings that note of the witnesses that he should call and 〈…〉 they are not here . a. ireland . there was one engletrap ▪ and one harrison had promised to be here that went with him into staffordshire . mr. oates . my lord when ever we had a mind to come to towne we conmmon●●y writ our letters and let them come to town two dayes after us ▪ ●●oe that we might ●●rove by the writing of such letters if any question did arise that we could not be at such ●● place at such a time . and when we pretended to go into the country we have gon●● and ●●ken a chamber in the city and have had frequent cabal●● at our chambers , there mr. ●●reland writ a letter as dated from s●● . omers , when i took my leave of him at his own ●●hamb●●r which was betwixt the th . and th . in london ●● was there and afterwards when i ●●r●… fenwicks chamber he came thither a ●…ght or ten dayes at least i am ●●re it was 〈…〉 august . l ▪ c ▪ j. 〈…〉 th●●ee witnesses upon ●●th ●●bout this one thing here is mr. bedlow ●…ct upon which the quest●…s●●s to b●●● august , that you deny and say ●…w●●e out of town , then ●● produces ●● m●●d h●●e and she swears that about that time which by ●●●cu●●a●●on must be about the th ▪ o●● th . ●●e saw you going into your ●●wn ho●●s●● . and here ●● a third wit●●s who swears he knowes nothing of this matter of ●●ct but he knows you were in town th●● , and that he tooke ●●is leave of you as going to ●●t . omers . mr. oates , whereas ●●e says that a●●●●h●● beginning of september he was in staffordshire he 〈…〉 in town the first of september or second for then i had of him twenty shilli●●gs , ●●●land , this is a most ●●a●●s lie ●●or i was then in staffordshire , and the witnesses contradict ●…elves for the one saith he took his leave of me as going to st. omers the th . the o●…aith it was the latter ●●nd of august i was at harcourts chamber . l. ch. j. he does not say you went , but you pretended to goe . a. ireland . here is one harrison , that was a coachman that went with them ▪ l. ch. just . well what say you friend , do you know mr ▪ ireland . harrison . i never saw the man before that time , in my life ; but i met with him at ●● albans . l. ch. just . when ? harrison . the fifth of august . there i met with him , and was in a journey with him the sixteenth . l. ch. just . what day of the week was it ? harrison , of a munday : l. ch. just . did he come from london on that day ? harrison . i cannot tell that , but there i met him . l. ch. just . what tim●● harrison ▪ jn the evening . l. ch. just . whereabouts in st ▪ albans . harrison , at the bull-inn , where we lodged . l. ch. just . mr. ireland , you say , you went on saturday out of town , did you stay st. albons till munday . ireland , no i went to standon that day , and lay there on saturday and sunday nig●● on munday i went to st. albons . l. ch. just . what , from thence ? ireland . yes my lord. l. ch. just . why did you goe thither ? was that in your w●● ireland . i went thither for the company of sir john southcot and his lady . l. ch. just . how did you know that they went thither . ireland . i understood they were to meet my lord aston and lady there . l. ch. just . what , on munday night . ireland . yes my lord. harrison , from thence i went with him to tixwell , to my lord aston's house , ●● we were all with him . l. ch ▪ just ▪ were you my lord aston's coachman . harrison , no my lord , i was servant to sir john southcot . l. ch. just . how cam●● you to go wi●●h them ? harrison ▪ because my lord aston is my l●●dy southcot's brother . l. ch. just . how long was you in his company ? harrison ▪ from the fifth of august to 〈…〉 sixteenth , & then i was with him at w●●stch●… mr. just . a●●kins . you have no●● yet 〈…〉 of being at westchester all this while . ireland , my lord , i must talke of ●…ey by degrees . l. ch. just . before you said , you 〈…〉 august in stafford shire , come you must ●● out some evasion for that . ireland , in stafford shire and t●●e●●eab●… l. ch. just . you witness , who do you live with ? harrison , with sir john sou●… l. ch. just . who brought you hither . harrison , i came only by a messenger last n●… l. ch. just . was not sir john southcot in that journey himself ▪ harrison . yes my lord he was . l. c. j. then you might aswell have sent to sir iohn southcot himself to come . a. ireland , i did it of my selfe i never did such a thing before and did not un●●●stand the way of ●●t . ireland ▪ i●● was meer chance she did send for those she did . l. c. j. but why should she not send for sir john himself . ireland . she did not know that sir john was here ▪ l. c. j. you were not denied to send for any witnesses , were you ? ireland i was expresly denied , they would not let me have one bit of paper . l. c. j. fellow , what town was that in staffordshire tell me quickly . harrison , it was tixwel , by my lord astons there we made a stay for three or four days then we went to nantwich and so to westchester . l. c. j. were not you at wolverhampton with him ? harrison , no my lord i was not there , i left him at westchester . ireland , my lord i was at wolverhampton with mr charles gifford , and here he is to attest it . l. c. j. well sir what say you ? gifford . my lord , i saw him there a day or two after st. bartholomews day , there he continued till the th of september the th . of september , i saw him there , and i can bring . and twenty more that saw him there . then as he said he was to goe towards london , i came again thither on the th , and there , i found him and , this is all i have to say . mr. oates , my lord i do know that day in september i speak of , by a particular circumstance . ireland . there is one william bowdrel that will testifie the same if i might send for him . l. c. j. why ha● you him here ? jreland . she hath done what she can to bring as many as she could . l. c. j. have you any more witnesses to call ? ireland , i can't tell whether there be any more here or no. l. c. j. mr. grove what say you for your self . grove . mr. oates sayes he lay at my house , my lord i have not been able to send for any witnesses , and therefore i know not whether there be any here . they could prove that he did not lye there , he sayes he saw me receive the sacrament at wildhouse , but he never did , and if i had any witnesses here i could prove it . l. c. j. he tells it you with such and such circumstances , who lay there at that times . grove , he did never lye there . l. c. j. why you make as if you never knew mr. oates . grove . my lord i have seen him but he never lay at my house . l. c. j. mr. pickering what say you for your self , you relye upon your masses ? pickering , i never saw mr. oates as i know of in my life . l. c. j. what say you to bedlow , he tells you he was with you in harcourts chamber such a day . pickering , i will take my oath i was never in mr. bedlows company in all my life . l. c. j. i make no question , but you will and have a dispensation for it when you have done , well have you any witnesses to call . pickering , i have not had time to send for any . l. c. j. you might have moved the court when you came at first , and they would have given you an order to send for any . ireland , methinks there should be some witnesses brought that knew mr. oates to attest his reputation , for i am told there are those that can prove very ill things against him , they say he broke prison at dover . l. c. j. why have you not witnesses here to prove it . ireland , we could have had them if we had time . l. c. j. i see what you ask now you would have time , and the jury are ready to goe togather about their verdict . ireland . why we desire but a little time to make out our proof . l. c. j. onely you must tye up the jury , and they must neither eat nor drink till they give in a verdict . ireland . then we must confess there is no justice for inoce●●ce . l. c. j. well if you have any more to say , say it . ireland . my lord i have produced witnesses that prove what i have said . l. c. j. i le tell you what you have prov'd : you have produced your sister and your mother , and the servant of southcott they say you went out the third of august , and he gives an accompt that you came to st. albans on the fifth , and then there is another gentleman mr. gifford , who sayes he saw you at wolverhampton till about a week in september , mr. oates hath gain said him in that , so you have one witness against mr. oates , for tha●● circumstance , it cann●●t be true what mr. oates sayes if you were there all that time , and i●● cannot be true what mr gifford sayes , if you were in london then . and against your two witnesses and the coachm●●n , there are three witnesses that swear the contrary , mr. oates mr. bedlow , and the maid , so that if she and the other two be to be believed , here are upon oath against your three , upon bare affirmation . ireland ▪ i doe desire time that we may bring in more witnesses . l. c. j. come ▪ you are better prepared then you seem to be call whom you have to call ▪ can you prove that against mr. oates which you speak of ? if you can call your witnesse●● on gods name , but only to aspers●● , tho it be the way of your church it shall no●● be the way of tryal amongst us : we know you can call hereticks and ill names fa●● enough . ireland , that hi●●sley that he names can prove if he were here , that mr. oates was all th●● while at st. omers . l. c. j. will you have any more witnesses called , ●●f you will , do it , and don't let u●● spend the time of the court thus . grove , here is mrs. york that is my sister , will your lordship please to ask her whethe●● she see that gentleman at my house , l. c. j. what say you mistriss york no my lord not i ▪ mr. j. at. nor i neither , might not he be there for all that ? mr ▪ oates , to satisfie the court my lord , i was in another habit , and went by anothe●● name . l. c. j lo●●k you , he did as you all do ▪ disguise your selves . ireland , though we have no more witnesses , yet we have witnesses that there are mor●● witnesses . l. c. j. i know your way of arguing is , that is very pretty , you have witnesses that can prove you have witnesses , and th●●se witnesses can prove you have more witnesses and so in infinitum . and thus you a●●gue in every thing you do . ireland , we can go no further than we can go , and can give no answer to what we did not know would be proved against us . l. c. j. then look you gentlemen . a. ireland , my lord , sir denny ashburnham promised to be here to testifie what he can say concerning mr. oates . l. c. j. call him , cryer , sir denny ashurnham . here he is my lord , l. c. j. sir denny , what can you say concerning mr. oates . sir d. ashburnham . my lord i received a letter this morning , which i transmitted to ●●r . attorny , and this letter was only to send to me a copy of an indictment against mr. ●●ates , of perjury : i did send it accordingly with my letter to mr. attorney ; he hath seen the letter , & what the town says to me in i●● . mr. at. g. i have seen it there is nothing in it ▪ l. c. j. do you know any thing of your own knowledg sir d. ashburnham , i do know mr. oates , and have known him a great while , i have known him from his cradle , and i do know that when he was a child , he was not a person of that credit that we could depend upon what he said ▪ l. c. j. what signifies that ? sir d. ashburnham , will you please to hear me out my lord , i have been also solicited ●●y some of the prisoners who sent to me , hoping i could say something that would help them in this matter : particularly , last night one mrs ▪ ireland sister to the prisoner at the bar , a gentlewoman i never saw before in my life , she came to me , & was pressing me hard that i would appear here voluntarily to give evidence for the prisoner , i told her no , i would not by any means in the world , nor could i say any thing as i thought that could advantage ▪ them ; for i told her , though perhaps upon my knowledg of mr. oates in his youth had this discovery come only upon mr. oates testimony , i might have had some little doubt of it , but it was so carroborated with other circumstances that had convinced me , & i would not speak any thing against the kings witnesses , when i my self was satisfied with the truth ●● the thing ; and i do think truly that nothing can be said against mr. oates to take ●●f his credibility ; but what i transmitted to mr. attorny , i had from the town of hastings for which i serve . l. ch. just . what was in that indictment ? sir. d. ashburnham . it is set forth , that he did swear the peace against a man ▪ and at his taking his oath , did say there were some witnesses that would evidence such a point of fact , which when they came would not testifie so much ▪ and so was forsworn . l. ch. just . what was done upon that indictment ? sir. d. ashburnham . they did not proceed upon it ; but here is the letter , and the copy of the indictment . mr ▪ serj. baldwine . my lord we desire it may be read , and see what it is . mr. attor ▪ gen. it is onely a certificate , pray let it be read . l. ch. just . i do not think it authentick evidence . mr ▪ ator . gen. but if i consent to it , it may be read . l. ch. just . if you will read it for the prisoners you may ; you shan't read it against them . if there be any strain , it shall be in favour of the prisoners and not against them . mr. ator ▪ gen. it is nothing against the prisoners nor for them , but however if your lordship be not satisfied it should be read , l●●t it alone . l. c. j. truly i do not think it is sufficient evidence ▪ or fit to be read . a ▪ ireland . i went to another , one colonel shakesby , who was sick and could not come but could have ●…st●●d much mo●● . l. c. j. have you any other witn●●sses ? ireland . i have none nor i have not time to bring them in . l. c. j. if you have none ▪ what time could have brought them in . but you have called a gentleman that does come in ▪ and truly he hath done you very great service , you would have had him te●●●fied against mr. oates , he saith , he hath known him ever since he was a child , and that then he had not so much credit as now he hath : and had it been upon his single testimony , that the discovery of the plot had ▪ depended , he should have doubted of it , but mr. oates his evidence with the testimony of the fact it self , and all the concurring evidences which he produces to back his testimony , hath convinced him , that he is true in his narrative . sir d. ashburnham . your lordship is right in what i have spoken . l. c. j. have you any mo●●e witnesses , or any thing more to say for your selves . ireland . if i may produce on my own behalf pledges of my own loyalty , and that of my family — l. c. j. produce whom you will. ireland . here is my sister and my mother can tell how our relations were plundred for siding with the king. l. c. j , no , i will tell you why it was , it was for being papists , and you went to the king for shelter . ireland . i had an uncle that was killed in the kings service , besides the pendrels and the giffords that were instrumental for saving the king after the fight at worcester , are my near relations . l. c. j. why all those are papists : pi●●kering . my father , my lord , was killed in the kings party . l. c. j. why then do you fall off from your fathers virtue ? pickering . i have not time to produce witnesses on my own behalf . ireland . i do desire time to bring more witnesses . grove . as i have a soul to save , i know nothing of this matter charged upon me . l. c. ●● . well , have you any thing more to say ? ireland . no , my lord. l. c. j. you of the kings council , will you sum up the evidence ? mr. serj. baldwin . no , my lord , we leave it to your lordship . c. of c. cryer , make proclamation of silence . cryer , o yes ! all manner of persons are commanded to keep silence upon pain of imprisonment . then the lord chief justice directed the jury thus . l. c. j. gentlemen , you of the jury ; as to these three persons , ireland , pickering , grove ; ( the other two you are discharged of ; ) one of them ireland , it seems is a priest , i know not whither pickering be or no , grove is none ; but these are the two men that should kill the king , and ireland is a conspirator in that plot. they are all indicted for conspiring the kings death , and endeavouring to subvert the government , and destroy the protestant religion , and bring in popery . the main of the evidence hath gone upon that soul and black offence , endeavouring to kill the king. the utmost end was without all question to bring in popery , and subvert the protestant religion and they thought this a good means to do it by killing the king , that is the thing you have had the greatest evidence of , i will sum up the particulars and leave them with you . 't is sworn by mr , oates expresly , that on the th of april last , there was a consultation held of priests and jesuits . they are the men fit only for such a mischief , for i know there are abund●…●● 〈…〉 gentlemen of that perswasion , who could never be drawn t●● do a●●y of these things , unless they were seduced by their priests , that sticke at nothing 〈…〉 own ends , he swears expresly that the ●●onsult was begun at the white-horse-tavern in the strand , that they theee agreed to murther the king ; that pickering and grove were the men that were to do it , who went afterwards and subscribed this holy league of theirs , and signed it every one at his own lodging , whitebread at his , ireland at his , and fenwick at his , two of which are out of the case , but they are repeated to you only to shew you the order of the conspiracy . that afterwards pickering and grove did agree to the same , and they received the sacrament upon it as an oath to make all sacred , and a seal to make all secret . mr. bedlow hath sworn as to that particular time of killing the king by pickering and grove , though they were not to give over the design , but there were four that were sent to kill the king at windsor . mr. oates swears there was an attempt by pickering in march last , but the flint of the pistol happening to be loose , he durst not proceed , for which he was rewarded with pennance . he swears there were four hired to do it . that fourscore pounds was provided for them : he saw the money ; and swears he saw it delivered to the messenger to carry it down . ireland . at what time was that ? lord chief just . in august there was an attempt first by pickering and grove : they then not doing of it , four other persons ( irishmen ) were hired to do it , and ten thousand pounds profered to sir george wakeman , to poison the king. thus still they go on in their attempts , and , that being too little , five thousand pounds more was added . this is to shew you the gross of the plot in general ; and also the particular transactions of these two murtherers grove and pickering , with the conspiracy of ireland . bedl●●w swears directly that in august last , these three and harcourt , & pritchard , and le faire being altogether in a room , did discourse of the disappointment the four had met with , in not killing the king at windsor ; and there the resolution was , the old stagers should go on still , but they had one conyers joyned to them , and they were to kill the king then at newmarket . he swears , they did agree to do it ; that ireland was at it ; and that all three did consent to that resolve . so that here are two witnesses that speak positively , with all the circumstances of this attempt , of the two to kill the king , and the confederacy of ireland all along with them . n●●w , i must tell you , there are no accessaries , but all principals , in treason . it may seem hard perhaps to convict men upon the testimony of their fellow offenders , and if it had been possible to have brought other witnesses , it had been well : but , in things of this nature , you cannot expect that the witnesses should be absolutely spotless . you must take such evidence as the nature of the thing will afford , or you may have the king destroyed and our religion too : for jesuits are too subtle to subject themselves to too plain a proof , such as they cannot evade by equivocation or a flat d●●nial . there is also a letter produced , which speaking of the consult that was to be the th of april , proves that there was a conspiracy among them . and , although , it is not evidence to convict any one man of them , yet it is evidence upon mr. oate's testiny to prove the general design . it is from one petre to one of the confederates , and taken amongst harcourt , papers , after mr oates had given in his te●●imony ; and therein it is mentioned , th●●t the superior had taken care , that there should be a meeting the th of april , the day after saint george's day , which is the very time oates speaks of ; and that they were not to come to town too soon , that the design might not be discovered . i would sai●● know what the signification of that clause might be . and then it goes farther , that it was to be kept secret , as the nature of the thing do●●h require ; which shews plainly there was such a transaction on foot . but the reason i urge it for , is , to shew you that it is a concurrent evidence with mr. oates , who had never seen this paper ▪ till th●●ee or four days after his information was given in , wherein he swears the time when this agitation was to be , and when they came to look upon the papers ; it agrees with the time precisely . now they do not write in this letter that they intended to kill the king ; but they write to caution them to keep the design undiscovered , and by that you may guess what they mean. what is said to all this by the prisoners , but denya's ? ireland cannot deny but that he knew mr. oates , and had been in his company sometimes ; five times by circumstances , mr. oates hath proved , so that they were acquaintance ; and it appears plainly there was a familiarity between them . ireland objects that bedlow charges him in august , when he was out of town all that time , and that therefore the testimony of one of the witnesses cannot be true . and to prove this he calls his mother , his sister , and sir john southcot's man , and mr. gifford . his mother and sister say expresly , that he went out of town the third of august , and the servant says , that he saw him at st albans , the fifth of august , and continued in his company to the sixteenth ; ( so that , as to that there is a testimony bo●●h against mr. bedlow , and against mr. oates ; ) and gifford comes and says , he saw him at the latter end of of august and beginning of september at wolverhampton ; whereas mr. oates hath sworn , he saw him the twelfth of august , and the first or second of september , and tells it by a particular circumstance , wherein i must tell you , it is impossible that both sides should be true . but if it should be a mistake only in point of time , it destroys not the evidence , unless you think it nec●●ssary to the substance of the thing . if you charge one in the month of august , to have done such a fact , if he deny that he was in that place at that time , and proves it by witnesses , it may go to invalidate the credibility of a mans testimony , but it does not invalidate the truth of the thing it self , which may be true in substance though the circumstance of time differ . and the question is , whether the thing be true ? against this , the council for the king have three , that swear it positively and expresly , that i●●eland was here . here is a young maid that knew him very well , and wa●● acquainted with him and with his breaking up of letters ; and she is one that was grove's servant : she comes , and tells you directly , that about that time which , by computation , was about the twelfth of august , she saw him go into his own house , which cannot be true , if that be true which is said on the other side ▪ and she does swear it upon better circumstances , then if she had barely pitch'd upon a day ; for she must have satisfied me well , for what reason she could remember the day so positively , ere i should have believed her : but she does it remembring her going to my lord arlingtons service , which was a week after the king went to windsor ; which is sworn to be about the thirteenth of august , and a week before her going it was that she saw ireland at his own door . what arts they have of evading this , i know not , for a●● they have t●●rned their learning into subtlety , so they have their integrity too . the study of politicks is their business and art which they make u●●e of upon all occasions , and i find them learned chiefly in cunning , and very subtle in their evasions : so that you see , without great difficulty a man cannot have from them a plain answer to a plain question . but the fact against them is here expresly sworn by two witnesses ; if you have any reason to disbelieve them , i must leave that to you . sir dennis ashburnham wh●… 〈…〉 produced to discredit mr. oates , sayes , than when he was a child there was little or ●…o credit to be given to him , and if the matter had depended solely upon his testimo●●y , those ieregularities of his , when a boy , would have staggered his belief . but ●●hen the matter is so accompanied with so many other circumstances , which are material things , and cannot be evaded or deny'd , it is almost impossible for any man , either to make such a story , or not to believe it when it is told . i know not whether they can frame such a one ; i am sure never a protestant ever did , and i believe never would invent such a one to take away their lives : therefore it is left to your consideration what is sworn . the circumstances of swearing it by two witnesses , and what reasons you have to disbelieve them . it is most plain the plot is discovered , and that by these men , and that it is a plot , and a villanous one , nothing is plainer . no man of common understanding , but must ●●ee there was a conspiracie to bring in popery , and to destroy the protestant religion ; and we know their doctrines , and practices too well ; to be●●ieve they wil stick at any thing , that may effect those ends . they must excuse me , if i be plain with them ; i would not asperse a profession of men as the priests are ▪ with hard words , if they were not very true , and if at this time it were not very necessary . if they had not murthered kings ▪ i would not say they would have done ours . but when it hath been their practice so to do ; when they have debauched mens understandings overturned all morals , destroyed all divinity , what shall i say of them ? when their humility is such ; that they tread upon the necks of emperors , their charity such , as to kill princes , and their vow of poverty such as to covet kingdoms , what shall i judge of them ? when they have licences to lie , and indulgences for fa●●hoods , n●●y , when they make him a saint that dyes in one , and then pray to him , as the carpenter first make●● an image , & after worships it , and can then think to bring in that woodden religion of theirs amongst us in this nation , what shall i think of them ? what shall i say to them ? what shall i do with them ? if there can be a dispensation for the taking of any oath ( & diverse instances may be given of it , that their church does lycence them to do so , it is a cheat upon mens souls , it perverts & breaks off all conversations amongst mankind ; for how can we deal or converse in the world , when there is no sin but can be indulged ; no offence so big , but they can pardon it , & some of the blackest be accounted meritorious ? what is there left for man ▪ kind to lean upon , if a sacrament will not bind them ( unless it be to conceal their wickedness ? ( if they shall take tests and sacraments , and all this , under colour of religion be avoided , and signifie nothing , what is become of all converse ? how can we think obligations and promises between man and man should hold , if a covenant between god and man will not ? we have no such principles nor doctrin●●s in our church , we thank god. to use any prevarications in declaring of the truth is abomniable to naturall reason , much mo●●e to true religion ; and 't is a strange church that will allow a man to be a knave . t is possible some of that communion may be saved , but they can never hope to be so in such a course as this . i know they will say , that these are not their principles , nor these their practices , but they preach otherwise , they print otherwise , and their councels do determine otherwise . some hold , that the pope in council is infalible , & ask any popish jesuit of them all , and he will say the pope is infalible himself in cathedra , or he is not right jesuit , and if so , whatever they command , is to be justified by their authority ; so that if they give a dispensation to kill a king , that king is well killed . this is a religion that quite unhinges all p●●ety , all morality , and all conversation , and to be abominated by all mankind . they have some parts of the foundation 't is true , but they are adulterated and mixed with horrid principles , and impious practices . they eat their god , they kill their king , and saint the murtherer . they indulge all sorts of sins , and no humane bonds can hold them . they must pardon me if i seem sharp , for a papist in england is not to be treated as a protestant ought to be in spain , & if ye ask me why ? he give you this reason , we have no such principles nor practices as they have , if i were in spain , i should think my self a very ill christian , should i offer to disturbe the government of the place where i lived , that i may bring in my religion there , what have i to do to undermine the tranquility & peac●● of a kingdom , because all that dwell in it , are not of my particular perswasion ? they do not so here , there is nothing can quench the thirst of a priest and a jesuit , nor the blood of men , nor of any if he can but propagate his religion , which in truth is b●… his interest . they have not the principles that we have , therefore they are not to have that common credence , which our principles and practices call for . they are not to wonder if they keep no faith , that they have none from others ; and l●… them say what they will , that they do not own any such things as we charge upon them and are like to go hard with them ; for we can shew them out of their own writing and counsels , that they do justifie the power of the pope in excommunicating kings , i●● deposeing them for heresie , & absolving their subjects from their allegiance , their clai●● of authority both in pope and council is the surest foundation they build upon . i have said so much the more in this matter , because their actions are so very pla●● and open , and yet so pernicious ; and 't is a very great providence , that we , and our religion , are delivered from blood and oppression . i believe our religion would ha●● stood notwithstanding their attempts and i would have them to know we are not afrai●● of them ; nay i think we should have maintained it by destroying of them . we should ha●● been all in blood 't is true , but the greatest effusion would have been on their side ; a●● without it , how did they hope it should have been don ? there are honest gentlemen ▪ i believe hundreds of that communion , who could not be openly won upon to engag●● in such a design . they will not tell them that the king shall be killed ; but they insinuat●● into them , that he is but one man , and if he should die , it were fit they were in readin●… to promote the catholick religion , and when it comes to that , they know what to d●● when they have got them to give money to provide arms and be in readiness on their specious pretence , then the jesuits will quickly find them work . one blow shall put ' er to exercise their armes ; and when they have killed the king , the catholick cause must be maintained . but they have done themselves the mischief , and have brought misery upon their whole party , whom they have ensnared into the disign upon other pretences than what was really at the bottom . a popish priest is a certain seducer , and nothing satisfies him ▪ not the b●●ood of kings , if it stands in the way of his ambition . and i hope they have no●● only undeceived some protestants , whose charity might encline them to think them not so bad as they are ; but i believe they have ●●shaken their religion in their own party here , wh●● will be ashamed in time , that such actions should be put upon the score of religion . i return now to the facts which is proved by two wittnesses , and by the concurrent evidence of that letter and the maid , and the matter is as plain and notorious as can be , that there was an intention of bringing in popery by a cruel and bloody way ; for i believe they could never have prayed us into their religion . i leave it therefore to you to consider , whether you have not as much evidence from these two men as can be expected in a case of this nature , and whether mr. oates , be not rather justified by the testimony offered against him , than discredited . let prudence and conscience direct your verdict , and you will be too hard for their art and cunning. gentlemen , if you think you shall be long , we will adjourn the court till the afternoon , and take your verdict then . jury . no , my lord , we shall not be long . then an officer was sworn to keep the jury safe , according to law , and they withdrew to consider of their verdict . after a very short recess , the jury returned , and the clerk of the crown spake to them thus : cl. of the crown . gentlemen answer to your names , sir. william roberts . sir. william roberts . here. and so the rest . cl. of the cr. gentlemen , are you all agreed in your verdict ? omnes . yes . cl. of the cr. who shall say for you ? omnes . the foreman . cl. of the cr. set william ireland to the bar. william ireland , hold up thy hand , look upon the prisoner , how say you , is he guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? forman . guilty ? cl. of the cr. what goods and chattels , lands or tenements ? foreman . none to our knowledg cl. of cr. set thomas pickering to the bar. thomas pickering hold up thy hand . look upon the prisoner . how say you , is he guilty of the same high treason , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. what goods or chattels , lands , or tenements ? foreman . none to our knowledge . cl. of cr. set john grove to the bar. john grove hold up thy hand look upon the prisoner . how say you , is he guilty of the same high treason , or not guilty . foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. what goods or chattels , lands or tenements ? foreman . none to our knowledge . cl. of cr. hearken to your verdict , as the court hath recorded it . you say that william ireland is guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted . you say that thomas pickering is guilty of the same high treason . you say that john grove is guilty of the same high treason . and for them you have found guilty , you say , that they , nor any of them , had any goods or chattels , lands or tenements , at the time of the high treason committed , or at any time since to your knowledg . and so you say all . omnes yes . lord. ch. just . you have done , gentlemen , like very good subjects , and very good christians , that is to say , like very good protestants : and now much good may their thirty thousand masses do them . then the court adjourned by proclamation till four in the afternoon . in the afternoon the same day about of the clock mr. recorder , and a sufficient number of the justices , returned into the court , the judges being departed home ; and proclamation was made for attendance , as in the morning . then the clerk of the crown called for the prisoners convicted of high treason , and spoke to each of them thus . cl. of the cr. set william ireland to the bar , william ireland hold up thy hand , thou standest convicted of high treason ; what canst thou say for thy self , why the court should not give thee judgment to dye according to law. ireland . my lord , i represented all along from the beginning , that we had not time to call in our witnesses to justifie our innocence . mr. recorder , if you have any thing to say in stay of judgment , you have all free liberty to say it . ireland . we had no time allowed us to bring in our witnesses , so that we could have none , but only those that came in by chance , and those things they have declared , though true , were not believed . mr. recorder . these things , mr. ireland , you did not object before the jury gave their verdict , now they have given their verdict , and found you guilty , if you have any thing to say to the court why they should not proceed to judgment according to that verdict , you may speak it , but for these things it is too late . ireland , my lord , i have onely this to say , i desire more time to be heard again , and to call in my witnesses . mr. recorder . call the executioner to do his office. ireland . there are testimonies , my lord , that i could produce of my loyalty , and my relations fidelity to the king. mr. recorder , i believe , mr. ireland , it will be shame to all your relations that have been loyal to the king , that you should be privy to the murther of that good king , whom your relations so well served ; and therefore if that be all that you have to say , it will signifie nothing . the executioner not appearing , the sheriff of middlesex was called to come into court , and give his attendance upon pain of l. but the executioner coming in ; was with a reproof from the recorder for his negligence , commanded to tye him up , which he did . cl. of cr. set thomas pickering to the bar. thomas pikering , hold up thy hand , thou art in the same case with the prisoner last before thee , what canst thou say for thy self , why the court should not give thee judgment to dye according to law ? mr. recorder , what does he say for himself ? capt. richardson , he has nothing to say . mr. recorder , then tye him up . cl. of cr. set john grove to the bar. john grove , hold up thy hand , thou art in the same case with the prisoner last be●● re thee , what canst thou say for thy self , why the court should not give thee judgment to die according to law ? grove . i am as innocent as the child unborn . cl. of cr. tye him up which was done . c. of cr. cryers on both sides make proclamations . gryere , o yes , all manner of persons are commanded to keep silence whilst judgment is upon pain of imprisonment ; peace about the court. mr. recorder , where is the keeper , shew me the prisoners , william ireland , th●●mas pickering and john grove , cap. richardson , those are the three . mr. record . you the prisoners at the bar , you have been arraigned for a very great offence , for the greatest that can be commited against any authority upon earth , for high treason against your king , with all the aggravation that possible can attend so great a crime as that is ; for you did not only strike at the life of the best of kings , but you intended the subversion of the best of religions , wharever you may apprehend ; yet all men that will ●●ay their hopes of salvation upon any thing that is fit for a man to l●●y his hopes upon , which is upon the merits of a crucified saviour , and not upon your masses , tricks or trumperies , ●●o abhor the thoughts of promoting their religion by massacring kings , and murdering their subjects . and though we whom you call hereticks , abhor to own any such religion ; yet we are not afraid to tell you , and all others who are ensnared into your principles ▪ we will maintain the religion and the government as it is established ; with our lives and fortunes . and it is fit that it should be known , that we who live under the government of so mild and pious a prince , and in a country where so good , so moderate a religion is establisht by law , will not be affrighted by all your murders , conspiracies and designs , from declaring , that they who dare kill kings , and massacre their subjects , ●●e the highest violaters , not only of the laws of the land , but of that great law which ●● good christians and protestants , think themselves obliged to pay great reverence and obedience to , i mean the law of god almighty himself . this i speak to you , gentlemen , not vantingly , 't is against my nature to insult upon persons in your sad condition ; god forgive you for what you have done , and i do heartily beg it , though you don 't desire i should ; for , poor men , you may belive that your interest in the world to come is secured to you by your masses , but do not well consider that vast eternity you must e're long enter into , and that great tribunal you must appear before , where his masses ( speaking to pickering ) will not signifie so many groats to him , no not one farthing . and i must say it for the sake of these si●●ly people whom you have imposed upon with such fallacies , that the masses can no more save thee from a future damnation , then they do from a present condemnation . i do not speak this to you , as intending thereby to inveigh against all persons that profess the romish religion ; for there are many that are of that perswasion , that do abhor those base principles of murdering kings , and subverting governments . there are many honest gentlemen in england , i dare say , of that communion , whom none ●●f the most impudent jesuits durst undertake to tempt into such designs ; these are on●●y to be imposed upon silly men , not upon men of conscience and understanding . and ●● pr●● god , as was said lately by a learned gentleman whom we all know , that all pro●●estants may be as safe from the force of your daggers , as they are from those of your ●●rguments ; for i dare say , that you could sooner murder any man that understands ●…e protestant religion , than perswade him to such villanies . and among those many ●●ings which prevailed with the honest gentlemen of the jury , to convict you of this ●…id crime , they could not but take notice ▪ that you ( speaking to ireland ) that do ●…end to learning , did send into forraign parts , that your fellow jesuits sho●●ld take 〈…〉 publickly to preach , that the oath of ●…giance and supremacy , by which the ●…on justice of the nation is preserved signified nothing ; which is a strong evidence of your design , not only to murther the king , but subvert the government , for surely the most probable way to do that ▪ is , to asperse those oaths by which all protestant subiects , those whom you call hereticks , lie under an obligation of obedience to their prince . and ●● think it not unfit to tell yon , that you had a great favour shewed to you to be tried only for the matters contained in this indictment ; for you that are priests must know , that there is a law in the land that would have hanged you for your very residence here ; for if any subject , born in england , shall take orders from the see of rome , and afterwards come into england , and remain there forty days , such , for that offence alone , are made traytors by act of parliament . but you are so far from being under any awe of that law , or submission to it , that you dare not only come to live here in despite thereof , but endeavour what you can , to overthrow both it and the government it self . you dare conspire to murther the king ; nay , not only so , but you da●●e make your consults thereof publick . you dare write your names to those consults . you dare sollicite all your party to do the like , and make all the tie ; of religion and conscience ( that to considering christians are obligations to piety and charity ) as engagements either to act your villanies , or to conceal them . we think no power can dispence with us whom you call hereticks , to falsifie our oaths , much less to break our covenant with god in the holy sacrament . but you ▪ instead of making that a tie and obligation to engage you to the remembrance of our saviour , make it a snare and a gin to oblige your proselites to the assassinating of kings , and murdering their subjects . i am sorry with all my soul , that men who have had their education here , and the benefit of the good examples of others , should not only be le●… into such mischievous principles themselves , but to be of that confidence in their perswasion , as to dare to debauch others also . i am sorry also to hear a lay-man shoul●● with so much malice declare , that a bullet if round and smooth was not safe enou●● for him to execute his villanies by : but he must be sure , not only to set his poysono●● invention on work about it , but he must add thereto his poysonous teeth ; for se●● if the bullet were smooth , it might light in some part where the wound might be ●…red ▪ but such is the height of some mens malice , that they will put all the veno●… and malice they can into their actions . i am sure this was so horrid a design , th●● nothing but a conclave of devils in hell , or a colledge of such jesuits as yours 〈…〉 earth , could have thought upon . this i remember to you for the sake of them that are to live , and for the chari●… i have for you , who are to die : for the sake of them that are to live ; for i hope when they hear that men of your perswasion dare commit those outragious crime and justifie them by a principle of religion , they will not easily be seduced into yo●● opinion : and out of charity to you that are to die , to perswade you to hearty 〈…〉 pentance ; for otherwise i must tell you , , thy fifteen hundred pound ( speaking grove , ) nor thy thirty thousand masses ( speaking to pickering ) will avail but li●… and i thought fit to say this also , that it may be known , that you have had the full ●●nefit of the laws established in england , and those the best of laws ; for such is no●● law of other nations , for if any protestant in any place where the romish religio●● profest , had been but thought guilty of such crimes , he had never come to the fo●●lity and justice of arraignment , and to be tryed by his peers , permitted to make defence , and hear what could be said against him ; but he had been hang'd immediat●● or perhaps suffered a worse death . but you are not only beholding to the happy ●…stitu●… of our laws , but to the more happy constitution of our religion . for ●●he●● are the admirable documents of that religion we in england profess , that we dare not requite massacre for massacre , blood for blood. we disown and abhor all stabbing ; and we are so far from reckoning , that he shall be a saint in heaven for assassinating a prince , and be prayed to in another world , that the protestant is required to believe , that such that begin with murther , must end with damnation , if our blessed lord and saviour do not interpose ; nothing that man can do , papist or protestant , can save any man in such a case . we dare not say , that our religion will permit us to murder dissenters , much less to assassinate our king. and having thus said , let me once more , as a christian , in the name of the great god of heaven , beg of you , for your own souls sake , be not satisfied or overperswaded with any doctrine that you have preached to others , or imbibed from others , but believe that no one can contrive the death of the king , or the overthrow of the government ; but the great god of heaven and earth will have an account of it ▪ and all pardons , absolutions , and the dispensations that you who are priests can give to your lay-brother , or that any of your superiors may give to you , will not serve the turn . i know not , but as i said , you may think i speak this to insult , i take the great god of heaven to witness that i speak it with charity to your souls , and with great sorrow and grief in my own heart , to see men that might have made themselves happy , draw upon themselves so great a ruin ▪ but since you have been so fairly heard , so fairly tryed and convicted , there is but little more to be said ; for i must tell you , because it may not be thought that you had not free liberty to make your full defence , though that gentleman ( speaking to ireland ) seemed to be surprized , he had a kind sister that took care for to bring his witnesses ; i am so far from blaming her for it , that i do commend her , it was the effect of her good nature , and deserves commendation ; but i speak to this purpose , to shew that there was no surprize upon him , nor his life taken away by any such thing ; for he had a greater favour shewed to him than is usually shown to such offenders . and having thus said to you my self , we do also require him whose duty it is to attend in such cases , nay , i do command him in the name of the court , that he attend upon you to give , you all the comfortable assistance that he can , for the advantage of your future state : and not only so , but we will cer●●ainly take care , that if you will have any others come to you , they shall . i would not be mistaken , i do not mean any of your priests and jesuits ; but if you will have the assistance of any protestant divines , they shall not be denyed you . and i hope , god almighty will please to give you pardon in another world , though you have offended beyond hopes of any in this . i once more assure you , all i have said is in perfect charity . i pray god forgive you for what you have done . and so there remains now only for me to pronounce that sentence which by the law of the land the court is required to do against persons convicted of that offence ▪ which you are convicted of . this court doth therefore award , that you , the prisoners at the bar , be conveyed from hence to the place from whence you came , and from thence that you be drawn to the place of execution upon hurdles , that there you be severally hanged by the neck , that you be cut down alive , that your privy members be cut off , and your bowels taken out , and burnt in your view : that your heads be severed from your bodies , that your bodies be divided into quarters , and those quarters be disposed the kings pleasure : and the god of infinite mercy be merciful to your souls . then the prisoners were conveyed back to the goal by the keeper of the goal , according to custome ; and the commission was called over , and the prisoners taken orde●● for according to law. and then the count adjourned by proclamation , thus . cl. of cr. cryer make proclamation . cryer o yes , o yes , o yes , all manner of persons that have any thing more to do at this ge●●er●●l sessions of the peace holden for the city of london , may depart hence for this time an●● give their attendance at the guild-hall london , on fryday the th . day of january next , at seven of the clock in the morning ▪ and all manner of persons at this sessions of oyer a●● terminer , and goal delivery of newgate holden for the city of london , and county of middlesex , may depart hence for this time , and give their attendance here again on wednesday i●● th , day of january at seven of the clock in the morning and then the court broke up . god save the king. on fryday the th . day of january following the prisoners , william ireland , and john grove , were drawn from newgate on a hurdle to the common place of execution , where they were executed , according to the sentence pronounced against them . finis a letter concerning sir william whitlock's bill for the trials in cases of treason written oct. upon the request of a friend who is an honest member of the house of commons, and now committed to the press upon the solicitation of several who think it may be of publick use to let it come abroad before the next meeting of the parliament. h. n. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing n estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a letter concerning sir william whitlock's bill for the trials in cases of treason written oct. upon the request of a friend who is an honest member of the house of commons, and now committed to the press upon the solicitation of several who think it may be of publick use to let it come abroad before the next meeting of the parliament. h. n. p. s.n., [s.l. : ?] reproduction of original in huntington library. caption title. signed at end: h.n. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng whitlock, william, -- sir. england and wales. -- parliament. trials (treason) -- great britain. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a letter concerning sir william whitloc●● bill for trials in cases of treason , written oct. ●● upon the request of a friend who is an honest mem●●● of the house of commons ; and now committed to 〈◊〉 press upon the solicitation of several who think it 〈◊〉 be of publick vse to let it come abroad before 〈◊〉 next meeting of the parliament . sir , my speedy compliance with your commands in relation to sir william whitlock's bill , is a demonstration how entire a power you have over me : and that i may be more distinct and clear in the delivery of my thoughts , i shall briefly set them down under the following heads . . i shall consider the reasonableness and necessity of having such a bill . in the next place , i shall consider , whether this is a proper time to propose and insist upon it . and in the last place , i shall give some account of the benefits of such a bill . to enforce the reasonableness and necessity of having such a bill , i need only request you to look over the trials that have been in our latter reigns , wherein you will find that for want of such a bill some of the most excellent personages , and our greatest patriots , have bee● 〈◊〉 to death , and that many others 〈…〉 whereof were men harmless 〈…〉 have suffered wrongfully . w 〈…〉 〈…〉 not lament , what good engl 〈…〉 is not afflicted for the death 〈…〉 essex and rawleigh ? can an 〈…〉 that knows our laws think s●● 〈◊〉 vane was fairly dealt with 〈◊〉 plunket ought to have been 〈…〉 twice ? sidney executed up●● 〈…〉 litude of hands , and one w 〈…〉 sir thomas armstrong withou● 〈…〉 before the outlawry comp 〈…〉 coming in ? ashton upon presu 〈…〉 treason ? and anderton again●● 〈◊〉 plain sence of so many statutes . 〈◊〉 blood of these and many more c 〈…〉 vengeance , and admonish us to p●●vide against such extravagancies 〈…〉 after . colledge and cornish call a 〈…〉 for such a bill . had such 〈◊〉 〈…〉 been in force , could the great 〈…〉 russel have dyed for only 〈…〉 ng to prevent the wild attempts of others , and because sir thomas armstrong had viewed the guards ? but ●t is needless to set down the several instances in other reigns , when the trials under this afford but too pregnant reasons to conclude the judges very untoward counsel for the prisoner , and that jury-men may be byassed by piques and animosities , and also that well-meaning men of a jury ought to hear the law stated by such of the robe as are not in the pay of the crown ; not only because the bench too often prevaricates , but because the prisoners are often wearied out , as the great rawleigh was , with the clamourous harangues of the king's counsel , and so drop their defence , when their lungs ( which are not so well breathed as those of pleaders ) fail them . another reason which may enforce the reasonableness and necessity of having such a bill is , because though our laws surpass the laws of all other countries in many other respects , yet in this they are very defective , insomuch that it is the opinion of such as have a greater insight into the laws of other governments ▪ and our own , than i will pretend to that there is not any one countrey where there are any legal trials at all , but the life of the subject is better guarded , the meth●d of trials in capital cases more equal than in ours ; and whoever will look over the manner of trials here , during the saxon times , will find we are in some great fundamentals degenerated from our ancient liberties . i will only add upon this first head an account of the method of capital trials , as it is amongst our neighbours of scotland , who , though since they have been made , as it were , a province to our crown , have in many essential parts of it , undergone very great violations of their constitution , have nevertheless herein preserved what may afford us matter of instruction ; and therefore let me in a few words give you their forms of trying such criminals . the prisoner is to receive his indictment with sound of trumpet fifteen days before the day of his trial , all persons then have access unto him , and at the same time he is to receive a l●st of his jury , and of the king's witnesses , with a warrant to subpoena all such persons to appear whom he shall think fit to call for , to prove his good behaviour , and his objections against the jury or the king's witnesses . upon application from the prisoner , the privy council gives order to such lawyers as are named in his petition to appear as counsel for him , with assurance unto them , that they shall never be called in question for any thing they shall urge in defence of their client . when the prisoner comes to his trial , every word that is spoken by the king's attorney general to enforce the indictment against the prisoner , and every word spoken by the prisoner's counsel for him , is written down by the clerks of the court , and entered upon record , together with his indictment , to furnish ground of process afterwards against the judges , if upon trial it be found that they have judged unjustly ; and the retaliation is carried so far in scotland , that if upon ●he review of those proceedings it is found ( after the he●t of the prosecution is over ) that the judge was byassed by interest ▪ malice or any other passion ▪ to direct a jury wrong and give a wrong sentence ▪ then the judge , if alive , sh●ll also be executed ▪ but if the judge is dead ▪ the h●irs of the executed persons shall rec●ver from he heirs of the deceased judge whatever damage their fortune sustained upon that illegal s●ntence . before the king's witnesses ▪ are exmined the prisoner's witnesses are called and examined upon oath , both as to the prisoner's good fame , and the truth of his defences ; as also whether they knew that any of the king's witnesses have been dealt with to depone against the prisoner , or have ever threatned him any mischief , or are of bad fame , either of which incapacitates them from being witnesses against the prisoner : nay , after the prisoner has had all his probation against the king's witnesses , he may demand , that such as have not been cast by his evidence should purg● themselves upon oath , before the● give their testimony , that they bea● the prisoner no malice , that they n●ver threatned him any mischief , an● that they have been never dealt wit● to depone against him . the members of the jury are liable to the sam● legal incapacities , and they may be proved against them by witnesses , o● their own oath . the judges are not allowed to spea● to the jury before they withdraw . if any message be sent to the jury , a●ter they are withdrawn , from the judges ; attorney general , or an● person concerned in the government the prisoner is acquitted upon his proving it . the jury is never returne● to amend their verdict . there mus● be two positive deponing witnesse● to each matter of fact alledged agains● the prisoner . i have said all that i will to the reasonableness and necessity of it ; and now let us in the next place consider , whether this is a proper time to propose and insist upon such a bill . the first consideration which i shall urge , might have been brough● as a reason for the absolute necessity of having such a bill , which consideration is this . the p. of orange in his declaration assigned the abuses in capital trials as one of the reasons o● his coming over ; and what the p. of orange then declared , he would see amended before he laid down his arms , is not k. william engaged in honour and interest , are not all that design to support this government bound to promote and agree to ? and consequently , is it not the indispensable duty of all that wish well to their majesties , with all speed to insist upon proper bills for that purpose ? how certain soever it is , that the only jus divinum of our monarchs , and all other monarchs too , is derived from the voice of the people , that hereditary right is one of sir robert filmer's dreams , or at most but a monkish fable , that election is the most authentick title , and that the commissions of kings are de beneplacito : i say , however true and certain all these notions are , yet they will return to their old bondage , will again fall in love with passive obedience , and think they have done wrong to king james , if the prince of oran●e's promises are not kept , and our constitution bettered by the change. and whereas some , otherwise judicious and worthy men ▪ would have this bill take effe●t , and got it voted in the house that it should take effe●t , at the end of this war , and not till then , in my humble opinion they were much in the wrong ; for it l●oks as if the wh●gs thems●lves designed this revolution only to g●t more ●●●er into their own hands , and to make use of that power too , to revenge themselves upon their enemies . i love some men that were concern'd in that clause too well to aggravate this matter , or to recite the reasons some of them gave for voting for it . revenge ▪ is a very ill reason for any vote in parliament ; and if any honest man has been persuaded to oppose this bill , or consent to that vote , that they might the better secure this government , i beg leave to inform such mistaken persons , that all governments are better secured by letting ▪ twenty guilty escape , than by the illegal condemnation of any one man. the blood of the martyr is the seed of civil as well as religious opinions ; and therefore perhaps through lenity a throne is most effectually established , even where men are , according to the strictest rules of justice and equity , at the mercy of the government ; but whether that be so or no , i am sure that where the law is not plain , an execution is a defeat to those that sit at the h●lm . moreover , that the opposition that those who have , or would have persions , whether in the house of lords or commons , have given to sir william whitlock's bill has not in the least preserved our present establishment , is plain to all that reflect how few there has been proof against , though this bill was baffl●d by such ar●ifices as little became our reformation , our preten●es to reformation . this bill would have been so far from weakning , that it would have strengthned our government ; for one good bill gains the king that gives it many friends , and such friends as are so by principles of liberty ; and who therefore are the fastest friends to an elective crown . had the king had , as some wish , opportunities , by the help of the presidents of latter reigns , and those stretches of prerogative which we ought to condemn in this , to sacrifice some of those who have been too busy for k. james , there are not any of that sort of men who have not amongst us friends and kindred , who would have been angry at the disputed legality of the death of their relations and friends . it is not for want of blood , but because we have not obtained good laws , and amongst the rest this , that our government is so low : it is because the whiggs have not kept to , and asserted their own principles , and because k. william has fallen into the hands of tories , and such whiggs as he has made tories , that all our affairs are in this condition . illegal trials and arbitrary notions are strange recipe's for a government that is it self founded upon a declaration against them . it is full time to vindicate the sincerity of the p. of orange's declaration in this particular ; and therefore this is a proper time to promote and insist upon such a bill . but i will not dwell upon this , i will proceed to another consideration . either k. william is a good prince , or a bad one . if a good one , 't is in the reigns of such we must get laws against such as are bad ; and no man can tell how long will be the reigns of the best of princes . if he is not so affectionate to our liberties as we could wish , and did expect him , then we have great reason to endeavour the getting of this law , to guard us against even his own male administrations . and this is the time to gain this law , because he will give us any law upon condition we will provide for his journey to flanders . indeed our best princes have always sold us for our money the best commodities , good laws : but even the worst of princes must give the people good laws , whilst the house of commons keeps the pu●s● , and the crown stands in need of our supplies . but further , how can our representatives answer it to their constituents , if they part with such vast sums , and don 't obtain for them a law , that for so long time ▪ almost the whole nation has thought necessary , for which twelve years agoe we would almost have ▪ given half our limbs , and half our fortunes ? this is the time to promote this bill , because some will be for it now who never were for a good bill before . wise men should make use of the inclinations and interests of all men if the whiggs were true to their own former professions this bill might be now carried almost nemine contradicente , more unanimously than most bills were ever carried ▪ methinks men should not care for what reasons other men come into that sence which is for the good of their countrey , but should make use of all factions and parties to serve it . the apostle paul rejoiced that christ was preached , though for by-ends , and we should rejoyce that our honest notions are propagated , let what will be the designs of those that set them on foot , or go in with them . but farther , if we lose this opportunity , it is not impossible but we may lose it forever . if we lay hold on this opportunity , though the ministers we have , and their ill management , should lose us our government , this would questi●nless be one of those laws which the first parliament under king james will desire him to ratify and confirm , and at which he expresly hints to in his last declaration , so that we ought to ask it not only for the safety of this government , but to preserve us in the next , if that should happen . nay , if the jacobites saw we persued our own principles now , and would not hurt our constitution to hurt them , all amongst that sett of men who have sence and generosity , would rather pity what they thought our mistakes , than join in our destruction hereafter : so that if we cannot make the tories wise at present , upon a revolution we may be fairly heard by the jacobites , and may come even to some accommodation in the principles of government ; but if we shew that we have no principles , men will never be persuaded by inveterate enemies , and such as have appeared to be only designing knaves , as soon as power was in their hands . my last thought brings me under a great temptation to expostulate with some of the whiggs , upon other matters whereby they have reproached their character , nor would it perhaps be an unseasonable digression ; but i resolved at first to confine my self ●o a letter of so small a compass as should not weary ▪ out your p●tie●ce , and therefore will only add a few notes concerning the ben●fits of this bill . it is beneficial both to the crown and subject . any man , that can reason upon what he reads , may infer from what i have already said , that it is beneficial to both ; but to make it yet more plain , this bill will in all likelihood very much prevent the shedding of innocent blood , for which nations , generally speaking , as well as particular persons reckon even in this world. impartial trials augment the natural riches of a countrey , which all men of great sence and souls know are the numbers of the inhabitants . such impartiality not only augments the numbers by preserving those individuals that would otherwise be unjusty destroyed , but the greater security the lives of subjects are in , the surer is that government to be crowded with inhabitants from abroad ; and crowds of people make industry necessary for sustentation , and from industry an abundance of trade and wealth does naturally flow , as may be seen by comparing ireland with the united provinces . again , such a law gives an exceeding reputation to a government . the subjects of other princes , though they should not be able to transport themselves and their fortunes hither , will all consent to proclaim our constitution happy , and acknowledge that our kings are under a glorious and happy necessity of not being imposed upon by the malice of ministers , and the corruption of judges , to take away wrongfully the lives of their subjects . this law will very much contribute to the safety of the prince ; for , after so fair a trial , if a man is found guilty , and executed according to the sentence , his relations and friends may grieve , but cannot murmur ▪ before i conclude upon this head , of the benefits that the crown will receive from such a law , i cannot f●rbear ad●ressing my self to king william , and humbly , tho' earnestly , conjuring him to become as vigorous a sollicitor for this b●ll as his enemies say he has been against it . and here i must set before him the glory of our noble edward the third , who has obtained as immortal praises by his good laws as his victorious arms , and who did leave his name particularly great and memorable , by that law in the th year of his reign , wherein he fenced the su●ject from the dubious and divers opinions of what amounted to treason , and made a declaration what offences were to be judged treasons , either high or petit , which law is so often referred to in acts of parliament that have been made since his time , and has made his name dear and valuable to all honest and worthy minds , from his down to our times : tho' mercenary and corrupt judges have so much interpreted away that act , that we stand in great need of a new law to explain and confirm that wise and excellent statute . i wish king william would give us such a law , and give us likewise this bill of sir william whitlock's , that we might be the better for that law. such care , such condescentions , such provisions for our lives and our liberties , our good names and our fortunes would transmit the remembrance of king william the third to all future generations , as our benefactor , our deliverer , as one of the best of princes and the common father of our countrey . my lord chief justice treby , when attorney general , at a conference with the lords , asserted , that there was nothing in this bill but what was originally amongst our rights . we will not stand upon it as such . we are willing to take this law as a grant from the crown , and not as our due . we would not be put to demand it as a right , but would leave the honour and reputation of doing so acceptable a thing to him with whom we have shewn but little inclination to quarrel . however , i must take the boldness to say , that the temper and backwardness we have shewn , whilst his tory parasites have provoked us , should engage him , or nothing will engage him , to gratify us with so necessary a bill as this for regulating of trials in cases of high ▪ treason . this bill is necessary and beneficial for the subject ; if guarding an innocent man's life and honour , the liberty of his person , and all that he or his ancestors have got , deserves to be called , in this case , the end of society , the rise of legislation , and the design of government ; if men are not willing to admit of as many tyrants as there are judges ; if they are not willing to be bawl'd and hunted out of their lives ; if they are not unwilling to be prepared against false accusations , by a knowledge of what will be laid to their charge ; if they do not think it unfit to have other counsel , besides those who are almost in every trial the eagerest in the prosecution of the prisoner ; if they would not have a matter of that importance as treason is established with less than the mouths of two winesses ; if they are not weary of the true intent of being tryed by the vicinage ; if they do not think it necessary for the support of the government , that a man should always suspect himself in danger of dying by the hand of the hangman ; if it is not unreasonable , that the compurgators of a man's reputation should give weight to their words by the sanction of an oath : in a word , if it is not expedient , that a man's life and all that he has , his posterity and all that they may have from him , should be precarious and doubtful , in the power of flattering sycophants and malicious informers , at the mercy of chol-rick and corrupted judges , and submitted to the consciences of pack'd juries ; then this law is expedient , this law is useful , this law is beneficial and necessary for the subject . thus you see , in obedience to you i have scribbled down some few hints concerning the necessity of such a bill . the reasonableness of proposing and insisting upon it at this time. together with an account of its benefits . i am , with all imaginable friendship and respect , yours h. n. the tryal and process of high-treason and doom of forfaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor ... baillie, robert, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing m estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and process of high-treason and doom of forfaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor ... baillie, robert, d. . mackenzie, george, sir, - . p. printed by the heir of andrew anderson ..., edinburgh : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng rye house plot, . trials (treason) -- great britain. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal and process of high-treason and doom of forfaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor . by his majesties special command , as a further proof of the late fanatical conspiracy . edinburgh , printed by the heir of andrew anderson , printer to his most sacred majesty , anno dom. . the tryal and process of high-treason , and doom of forefaulture against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood traitor . cvria justiciariae s. d. n. regis tenta in praetorio burgi de edinburgh viges●mo tertio die mensis decembris . per nobilem & potentem comitem georgium comitem de linlithgow , dominum livingstoun , &c. justiciarium generalem totius regni scotiae , & honorabiles viros , domines jacobum foulis de colintoun justiciariae clericum , joannem lockhart de castlehill , davidem balfour de forret , rogerum hoge de harcarss , alexandrum seaton de pitmedden , & patricium lyon de carss , commissionarios justiciariae dicti . s. d. n. regis . curia legitime affirmata . intran mr. robert baillie of jerviswood prisoner indited and accused , that where notwithstanding by the common law of this , and all other well governed nations , the conspiring to overturn the government of the monarchy , or of the established government of this kingdom , or the concealing , and not revealing of any treasonable design , project , or discourse tending thereto ; or the assisting , aiding , or abaiting such as have any such designs , does infer the pains and punishment of treason . and by the third act of the first parliament of king james the first , the rebelling openly against the kings person : and by the thretty seventh act of his second parliament , the resetting , maintaining , or doing favours to open , or not our rebellers against the kings majesty , is declared treason , and punishable by forefaulture . and by the hundred fourty and fourth ▪ act of the twelfth parliament of king james the sixth , it is declared treason to reset , supply , or intercommune with traitors . and by the first act of the first session of his majesties first parliament , it is declared , that it shall be high treason for the subjects of this realm , or any number of them , less or more , upon any ground , or pretext whatsomever , to rise , or continue in arms , to make peace or war , without his majesties special approbation . and by the second act of the second session of his majesties said first parliament , to plot , contrive , or intend death , or destruction , or to put any restraint upon his majesties royal person , or to deprive , depose , or suspend him from the exercise of his royal government , or to levy war , or take up arms against his majesty , or any commissionated by him , or to intice any strangers , or others , to invade any of his majesties dominions , or to write , print , or speak any thing that may express or declare such their treasonable intentions , is declared treason , and punishable as such . likeas , by the second act of his majesties third parliament ▪ it is declared high treason in any of the subjects of this realm , by writing , speaking , or any other manner of way to endeavour the alteration , suspension , or diversion of the right of succession , or debarring the next lawful successour . nevertheless , it is of verity that the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , shaking of all fear of god , respect and regard to his majesties authority and laws ; and having conceived most unjustly , a great and extraordinary malice and hatred against his majesties person and government , and having designed most traiterously to debar his royal highness , his majesties only brother , from his due right of succession , did amongst many other traiterous acts , tending ▪ to promove that wicked design , endeavour to get himself elected one of the commissioners for negotiating the settlement of a colony of this nation in carolina , in one or other of the dayes of the moneths of january , february , march , april , or may , one thousand six hundred and eighty three years ; and that he might thereby have the freer and better access to treat with the earls of shaftsbury and essex , the lord russel and others , who had entered into a conspiracy in england against his majesties person and government , and with colonel rumsay , walcot , west , and ferguson , and others who had likewise conspired the murder of his majesties sacred person , and of the person of his royal highness ; and finding that he could not get himself elected one of the said commissioners , he resolved to go to london upon his own expenses , and declared to severals ( whom he took great pains to draw in●o be his accomplices ) that his design was to push foreward the people of england , who did nothing but talk , that they might go on effectually ; and after he had settled a correspondency here , he did go up to london in one or other of the saids moneths , with sir john cochran and commissar monro , and did then , and there , transact with the saids conspirators , or one or other of them , to get a sum of money to the late earl of argile , a declaired traitor , for bringing home of men and arms , for raising a rebellion against his majesty , and invading this his native countrey ; and so earnest was he in the said design , that he did chide those english conspirators , for not sending the same timeously , and lamented the delayes used in it ; and perswaded the late earl of argile and others in his name to accept of any sum , rather than not to engage : and amongst the many meetings that he had at london , for carrying on the said traiterous design , there was one at his own chamber , where he did meet with the lord melvil , sir john cochran , and the cessnocks elder and younger , and amongst others , with mr. william veatch a declared traitor , and there he did treat of the carying on of the said rebellion , and of the money to be furnished by the english for argyle , for buying of armes . and that if the scots would attempt any thing for their own relief , they would get assistance of horse from england ; and from that meeting , he or ane , or other of them did send down mr. robert martin to prevent any rysing , till it should be seasonable for carying on of their designs , which mr. robert , after he came to scotland , did treat with polwart and others , for carying on of the said rebellion ; by securing his majesties officers of state , his castles and forces , and by putting his correspondents here , and there associats , in readiness , to assist the late earl of argyle , and after the said mr. baillie had engadged many of his countrey-men in england , and had assured his correspondantts here , that the english were resolved to seclud his royal-highness from his due right of succession , thereby to encourage them to concur in the said rebellion , and exclusion , he flew to that hight , that he did particularly and closly correspond with mr. robert ferguson , sir thomas armstrong , collonel rumsay , and walcot , who were accessory to that horrid part of the conspiracy , which was designed against the sacred life of his majesty , and the life of his royal-highness , and did sit up several nights with them , concerting that bloody massacer : at least the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood was , and is guilty of having correspondence with the late earl of argyle , and mr. william veatch declared traitors , and of being art and part of an conspiracy , for assisting of these who were to rise in armes against his sacred majesty , and for exclusion of his royal brother , and of concealing and not revealing the accession and proposals of others for that effect . wherethrow he has committed , and is guilty of the crymes of high treason , rebellion , and others abovespecified , and is art and part of the samine , which being found by ane assize , he ought to be punished with forfaulture of life , land and goods , to the terror of others to commit the like hereafter . his majesties advocat produced an act , and warrand from the lords of his majesties most honourable privy council , for pursuing , and insisting against the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , whereof the tenor follows : edinburgh , the twenty two day of december , one thousand six hundred and eighty four years . the lords of his majesties privy council , do hereby give order and warrand to his majesties advocat , to pursue a process of treason and forfaulture , before the lords of his majesties justiciary , against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , to morrow at two a clock in the afternoon preceisly , and the saids lords do hereby require and command , sr. george lockhart of carnwath , and sr. john lauder advocats , to concur , and assist in the said process with his majesties advocat , from the intenting untill the end thereof , as they will be answerable upon their alledgance . extract by me , sic subscribitur . colin mckenzie , cls. sti. concilij . pursuers . sir george mckenzie of roshaugh our soveraign lords advocat sir george lockhart sir john lauder . advocats . procurators in defence . sir patrick hume . mr. walter pringle . mr. james graham . mr. welliam fletcher . mr. william baillie . advocats . the pannals procurators produced ane act of his majesties privy council , in their favours , wherof the tenor follows : edinburgh , the twenty third of december , one thousand six hundred eighty four years , the lords of his majesties privy council having considered ane address made to them , by mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , now indited at the instance of his majesties advocat , before the lords commissioners of justiciary , of treason , do hereby require and command sir patrick hume , mr. walter pringle , mr. james graham , mr. william fletcher , mr. james falconer , mr. william baillie advocats , to consult , compear , and debate for the petitioner , in the process of treason , mentioned in his address , without any hazard , as they will be answerable at their peril ; extract by me , sic subscribitur . william paterson , cls. sti. concilij . after reading of the inditement , the lord justice general required the pannal to make answer thereto . the said mr. robert baillie pannal pleaded not guilty . mr. walter pringle advocat , as procurator for the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood pannal , alleadges that he ought not to passe to the knowledge of an assize , because he had not got a citation upon fyfteen days , or at least on a competent time , which is usual , and absolutely necessar in all actions , and much more in criminal pursuits , especially , seing , if a competent time be not allowed to the pannal , he is precludit of the benefit of ane exculpation , without which he cannot prove his objections against witnesses , or assyzers , or any other legal , or competent defences ; and by the late act of parliament concerning the justice court , all pannalls are allowed to raise precepts of exculpation , and thereupon to cite witnesses , for proving the objections against witnesses , and assyzers , which necessarily pre-supposeth , that a competent time must be allowed to the pannal to execut his diligence , or otherwise , how is it possible he can prove an defence of alibi , or any other just defence : and as this is most consonant to that clear act of parliament , and to material justice , and to the rules of humanity , so this point has been already fully and often decided , and lately in the case of one robertson in july . the instance whereof , is given by his majesties advocat in his book of criminals , and title of libels , where the lords found , that albeit robertson got his inditement in prison , yet he behoved to get it upon fifteen dayes . his majesties advocat oppons the constant tract of decisions , whereby it is found , that a person incarcerated may be tryed upon twenty four houres ; and the late act of parliament is only in the case where a summons or libel is to be raised ; but here there is no libel or summons , but only an inditement ; nor was any exculpation sought in this case , before the tryal , which is the case provided for by the act of parliament . the lords , justice-general , justice-clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , repell the defence , in respect the pannal is a prisoner , and that it has been the constant custom of the court , and that the pannal made no former application for an exculpation . sir patrick hume for the pannal , alleadges ( alwayes denying the libel , and whole members , and qualifications thereof ) that in so far as the libel is founded upon harbouring , maintaining , and intercommuning with the persons mentioned in the dittay , the pannal ought to be assoylzied ; because it is res hactenus judicata , he having been formerly pursued before the lords of his majesties privy council for the same crimes , and fined in an considerable sum ; and therefore that crime cannot now be made use of as a ground of treason against the pannal . his majesties advocat answers , that he restricts his libel , to the pannals entering in a conspiracy ; for raising rebellion , and for procuring money to be sent to the late earl of argile , for carrying on the said rebellion ; and for concealing , and not revealing ; neither of which is referred to his oath ; and consequently was not res judicata , there being nothing referred to his oath ; but his converse and correspondence with some ministers , and others within the kingdom , and his own gardiner , and his writing letters to my lord argile ; and oppons the decreet of council it self , and restricts the libel to all the crimes not insisted on in the decreet . sir patrick hume replyes , that as to the corresponding with the late earl of argile , at any time since his forefaulture , was expresly proponed as an interrogator to the pannal in that pursuit , at his majesties advocat's instance against him , before the lords of his majesties privy council , and that not only his own correspondence by himself ; but also by major holms , mr. carstares , robert west , thomas shepherd , richard rumbold , and collonel rumsay , as the interrogator bears , as appears by a double of the act of council , written by the clerk of councils servant , and is offered to be proven by my lord advocats oath : and as to any correspondency with mr. veitch , it is not relevant , since he was not declared rebel . sir john lauder for his majesties interest , answers , that he oppons the decreet of privy council , where no such interrogator was put to the pannal , and the decreet must make more faith than any pretended scroll , and cannot be taken away by his majesties advocats oath , to his majesties prejudice ; and for mr. william veitch , he stands expresly forefault in anno . and the doom of forefaulture , is ratified in the parliament . sir patrick hume oppons the reply , that as to the corresponding with mr. veitch , it does not appear , that he is the person mentioned in the act of parliament ; and albeit he were , as he is not , he having thereafter come home to scoland , all the punishment inflicted upon him was banishment , not to return under the pain of death , which did take off any former punishment ; and it was no crime in any person to intercommune with him , especially in another kingdom ; and by the late act of council in anno . even the conversing , and intercommuning with declared traitors , is restricted to an arbitrary punishment . his majesties advocat oppons the standing doom of forefaulture against veitch , and the proclamation , or act of council it ●elf . the lords , justice-general , justice-clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , having considered the libel , pursued by his majesties advocat , against mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , with the lord advocats declaration , whereby he restricts the same to the crimes not insisted on in the decreet of council formerly pronunced against the pannal . they find the same relevant as it is restricted , to infer the pain of treason , and remits the same to the knowledge of the assize , and repells the remnant defences proponed for the pannal , in respect of the decreet of council produced , bearing no such thing as is alleadged , and of the answers made by his majesties advocat thereto . assisa . the earl of strathmore . the earl of belcarras . sir george skeen , provost of aberdene . sir james fleming , late provest of edinburgh . sir john ramsay of whitehill . adam hepburn of humby . andrew bru●e of earleshall . john stuart , tutor of alpin . alexander miln of carrin . mr. james elies of stenhopsmilns . sir william drummond of halthornden . major andrew white , lieutennent of edinburgh castle , mr. david grahame , sheriff of wigtoun . colin m ckenzie , collector of ross. david burnet merchant . the assise lawfully sworn , no objection of the law in the contrary . hiis majesties advocat for probation adduced the witnesses and writs aftermentioned ; and first , walter earl of tarras . sir patrick hume procurator for the pannal , objects against the earl of tarras , that he cannot be a witness , because he is socius & particeps criminis ; and it is clear by the . chap. stat . rob. . concerning these that are excluded from bearing of testimony that socij & participes ejusdem criminis , vel incarcerati & vinculati , cannot bear testimony : as also , the earl of tarras being presently under an inditement of high treason , and under the impressions of fear , and death , no person in his circumstances can be admitted a witness , as is not only clear from the foresaid statute , but from the common law. his majesties advocat answers , that it is an exception from that rule , both by the common law , and ours , that in the crime of lese majestie , and especially , that branch therof , which we call a conspiracy , socius criminis may be a witnes , and which is introduced very reasonably by lawyers , to secure the common interest of mankind , which is the chief of all interests ; and because conspiracies cannot be otherwayes proved , and not to allow this manner of probation , were to allow treason , since no man can prove a plot , but he that is upon it , and how can a man object against him as a witness , whom himself trusted with his life , his fortune , and their common plot , nor is the intenting of the lybel any stronger qualification , since every man that is socius criminis , is under the same impression , and it would rather seem the greater and nearer apprehensions a man has of death , he will be the more sincere and faithful ; nor has the earl of tarras , nor did he ever seek any security , in order to his deponing . and this has been constantly , and latlie , conform to the common law , as may be seen in the hundreds of citations set down by mascard , de probationibus , vol. . conclus . . num . . and the contrary citations prove only , that regularly socius criminis cannot be a witnes . sir patrick hume replyes , that the statutes of robert the first is opponed , and non est distinguendum ubi lex non distinguit , and not only was he socius criminis , which is acknowledged , but he is incarceratus , and lying under an indytment of high treason , and has thrown himself on the kings mercy , and it is not proper he should be a wintess , seing he is in the kings mercy , who may give him his life or not , and there was never a person in these circumstances , that ever was admitted a witness . mr. walter pringle adds , that the earl of tarras , is not only in the case of a person who stands indyted for high-treason ; but must be look'd upon , as a person condemned for the said cryme , seing he fully , and amply confest the cryme : & confessus habetur p●o convicto , and never any lawyer asserted , that damnatus criminis lesa majestatis could be admitted as a witnes , and there is nothing more clear , then that by the common law , and the law of all nations , this objection ought to be sustained , for the civil law is clear , leg . . cod ▪ de testibus , and matheus in his title de probationibus , cap. de testibus , doth assert positivlie , that the cryme of lese majestie , heresie , and generally all these crymes quae sine sociis non possuut facile admitti , are not excepted . and he asserts , that the lawyers , viz. gomesius , & decianus , who are of another opinion , do acknowledge , nominatum a reo damnandum non esse , and that they contravert only , an nominatio rei sit indicium sufficiens ad torquendum nominatum . sir george lockhart repeats , and oppons the answer , and the cryme lybelled , being a conspiration of treason , which of it's own nature is manadged , and caryed on by secrecie and contrivance ; and which is only known to the complices of the treason , and which cannot be commited sine sociis , the law of this kingdom , and of all nations , do allow socios criminis to be testes habiles , and not only are they admitted in the case of such conjurations , but generally in omnibus criminibus exceptis , amongst which the crime of perduellion , and lese majestie is the chief , and it is absolutly impossible , that plots , and conspirations of treason can be otherwayes proven , then per socios , and such as are participes criminis , and which is the common opinion of all lawyers , as may appear by farin . quest : . and the authorities cited by him , and which is the inviolable practique of this kingdom : and as to that pretence , that the earl of tarras is under a process of treason , and has submitted to his majesties mercy , and that confessus habetur pro convicto , it imports nothing , and infers no more then that he is socius criminis , and is still a habil witnes , as to conjuration of treason socius criminis hoc ipso , that it is acknowledged , or proven , being still under the hazard of process , or condemnation , which law regards not in regard of the secrecie involved in the nature of the crime , that either witnesses neque actu neque habitu , can be present , so that the objection amounts to no less then that conjurations of treason cannot at all be proven : and as to the law cited from the majestie , it imports no more then that the objection regulariter pro●edit in crimes , which of there own nature are not perdifficilis probationis , and are not inter crimina excepta such as the cryme of conspiracy and treason is ▪ mr. william fleteher oppons the objection , and reply , and further adds , that albeit crimen lesae majestatis be reckoned inter crimina excepta , and so have some priviledge , as to the qualification of witnesses , yet it cannot be denyed , but there are some objections competent against witness adduced for proving conspiracies , and treason , verbi causa , that a witnes is a capital enemy , or that he is sub potestate accusatoris , and the objection new pleaded , being taken complexlie , viz. that the earl of tarras is not only socius criminis , but also , that he is publico judicio reus , upon the same crime , and that as means to procure his majesties favour , he has submitted himself , and come in his majesties mercy , by an acknowledgment of the cryme , before the dyet of citation , he is obnoxious to a most just objection , viz. that he is sub potestate , and by the submissiou , and confession , his life and estate is now in his majesties hands , so that he is not only in the case of a reus confessus , but in the case of a witnes , who does absolutely depend upon his majesties advocat the pursuer ; and as a privat accuser , could not adduce his own servants to be witnesses , because they are testes domestici , and depend upon him , so far less ought a witnes to be adduced , who not only depends , as to his estate , but as to his life , and the law gives a very good reason , and which is mentioned by paulus , lib. . receptarum sententiarum , cap. . parag . ult . in these words ▪ de se confessus , non est au●●endus ut testis , ne alienam salutem in dubium deducat qui de sua desperavit ; and as to the pretence that a conjuration is a cryme so occult , that it must either be proven by such witnesses , or otherwayes the guilty person will escape . it is answered ▪ that in this case , his majesties advocat had an easie remedie , for he might have pursued the pannal , before he pursued the witnes , and the terror and apprehension of the event of a process for treason cannot be constructed otherwayes , then to have influence upon the deposition of the witnes ; and as to the citation out of farinacius , it is only in the case of socius criminis , but when he comes to treat de teste accusato vel carcerato . quest. . articulo to . he sayes , regula sit in accusato quod is pendente accusatione à testimonio repellitur ▪ and be the d . rule of the same article , he sayes , it is a principle quod carceratus testimonium ferre prohibetur , and he gives this reason , quia praesumitur , quod falsum testimonium diceret pro aliquo qui ei promiserit se liberare a vinculo , and limits this rule , that he must be carceratus propter crimen . sir patrick hume adds , that it is a certain principle , that any person that is guilty infamia juris , cannot be a witness , no more than a person that is convict , and condemned of treason ; and if he were convict , and condemned of treason , he could not be a witness , even in the case of treason : so neither can the earl of tarras in this case be received a vvitness , for he being adduced a vvitness after he received his inditement , and confessed the crime , is equivalent , as if he had been actually convict ; and whatever may be pretended , that testes infames may be admitted ; yet it was never asserted by any lawyer , that a person convict of treason can be admitted a vvitness . the lords repelled the objection against the earl of tarras , and ordains him to be received a witness . walter earl of tarras , aged fourty years , married , purged , and sworn ; being interrogat , if about the time that sir john cochran , and commissar monro got their commission from the carolina company for london , the pannal mr. robert baillie of jerviswood did not desire the deponent to speak to commissar monro , to try if he could get him the said pannal added to that commission , depones affirmative . being interrogat , if the said jerviswood , the pannal , did not tell the deponent , that he was resolved to go to london however upon his own expenses , and that his and their going about the carolina bussiness , was but a pretence , and a blind ; but that the true design was , to push foreward the people of england , who could do nothing but talk , to go more effectually about their bussiness , depones affirmative . depones that the pannal did settle a correspondence with the deponent , whereby he was to give an account to the deponent of what should pass betwixt the countrey party in england , and the scots men there : and on the other hand , the deponent was to vvrite to him what occurred here ; depones that the pannal did say to the deponent , if the king would suffer the parliament of england to sit , and pass the bill of seclusion , that that was the only way to secure the protestant religion . depons that the pannal said to him , that the king might be induced to do so , if the parliament would take sharp , or brisk measures with him , or the like . depones these words were spoke to him by the pannal , since the holding of the last session of this current parliament ; and before the pannal and commissar monro went for london . depons that after the pannal went to london , he did give the deponent an account by letters , that things were in great disorder there , and that he hoped there would be effectual courses taken to remeid them . depones that mr. robert martin did come to mr. pringle of torwoodlies house in may . or thereby , and brought a letter to the deponents lady unsubscribed , but the deponent knows it was jerviswoods hand-writing , who was then at london , and that mr. martin told the deponent , that things in england were in great disorder , and like to come to a hight , and that the countrey party were considering on methods for securing the protestant religion . and that archibald , sometime earl of argile , was to get ten thousand pounds sterling , whereas thirty thousand pounds sterling was sought by the scots-men at london , which was to be sent over to holland to provide arms ; and that the late earl of argile was to land with these armes in the west-highlands of scotland , and that the deponents friend jerviswood the pannal , was to be sent over with the money . depones that philiphaugh and he went to gallowshiels house , where they met with polwort and gallowshiels , and that it was talked amongst them there , that in case those in england should rise in arms , that it was necessary in that case , that so many as could be got on the borders should be in readiness to deal with straglers and seize upon horses , and that thereafter they should joyn with those that were in arms on the borders of england . depons , that in the case foresaid , it was said , it was convenient the castle of stirling , berwick , and some other strengths should be seiz'd upon ; and it was likewise spoke amongst them , that some persons should be employed to inquire what arms was in that countrey . depons , that it was spoke then , that the best time for argyle was to land in the west when there was a stur in england , or scotland , or words to that purpose . depons , that every one desired another to speak to such particular persons as they could trust , by letting a word fall indirectly upon supposition , in case of the rising in england concerning the affair for preparing of them : and that he was told by philiphaugh thereafter , that there was a word and sign to be used amongst them , viz. the sign was by loosing a button on the breast , and that the word was harmony . depons , the pannal spoke to the deponent to advertise torwoodlie , that he might acquaint mr. william veitch a forfault traitor , who was in northumberland , that he might keep himself close , and be on his guard , lest he should be catch'd ; which was since the pannal was prisoner in the tolbooth of edinburgh . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , tarras , linlithgow . i. p. d. alexander monro of bear-crofts , aged fourty five years , or thereby ; solutus , solemnly sworn and purg'd . depons , that the earl of tarras proposed to the deponent , that jerviswood might be made one of the commissioners for the affair of carolina , for that he could not safely stay at home ; and that the deponents answer was , that he had no interest in the affair , and so could not be a commissioner . depons , that the pannal did wait for the deponent at wooller , and did go alongst with him to london , and that by the way he heard him regrate his own hazard and others , because of blackwoods sentence ; and that he heard him regrate the hazard our laws , and liberties , and the protestant religion were in . depons , that the pannal spoke to the deponent and others , more then once at london for getting of money from the english to be sent to the late earl of argile , for bringing home arms for the said earls use , as he understood , for carrying on an insurrection , and rebellion in scotland . depons , that at the time libelled , in jerviswoods chamber in london , mr. william veitch a forfault traitor was present ; and that sir john cochran did at that meeting expressly speak of money to be sent to argile for bringing home arms for invading the kingdom of scotland ; and that at another occasion he heard some of them say , that there would be twenty thousand men in scotland who would assist the rebellion , and that he heard sir john cochran and jerviswood speaking of it , but cannot be positive which of the two said it . depons , that at that meeting he heard jerviswood speak , but did not hear him oppose that ●reasonable proposal ▪ or contradict the overture proposed by sir john cochran . depons , that mr. robert martin was sent down from that meeting which was at jerviswoods chamber , to scotland , to try what the people of scotland would do for their own safety : and that it was understood that the people of scotland should not rise till there should be a rising in england , and that the commission was granted to mr. robert martin by all the persons present , whereof jerviswood was one , and that there were present the lord melvill , sir john cochran , cessnocks elder and younger , mr. william carstares , mr. william veitch , jerviswood , and the deponent ; and depons they did contribute money for mr. martins journey : depons , that at his return he meeting with the deponent , told him , that matters were in that condition in scotland , and that the countrey was in such a condition as little would kindle the fire in order to the rebellion . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , alexander monro , linlithgow , i. p. d. james murray of philiphaugh , aged . years , married , purged and sworn , produces four leaves of depositions , emitted by him before the lords of the secret commitie , and all written and subscribed with his own hand , which being publickly read , in presence of the justices , and assize , he adheres thereto , in all points , whereof the tenot follows . upon the day of may , . upon a letter from mr. pringle of torwoodlie , i came to his house in the morning , and he presently led me to a chamber , where i found mr. robert martin , who was lately come from london , with whom we stayed a little , and discoursed of the news ▪ and about the present condition , and temper of england , and in particular of london , which mr. martin said , was much irritated through some attempts upon their priviledges , either as to the concern of the sheriffs , or their charter , but that all honest men were of good heart ▪ and very brisk , and after some general discourses to this purpose , torwoodlie , and i left him , and walked out a little , and he told me , he was expecting the e. of tarras presently , for he had sent to him ; and mr. martin had a letter to him from jerviswood , then he told me that there were great matters in agitation at london , and that mr. martin had come down with a commission from our friends there , ( i do not remember he named any ) but that i behoved not to expect , he would impart his instructions to me , for he was to communicat them only to polwart and himself , ( at least for these shyres ) and they were to pitch on such as they thought fit to intrust with the affair , whereupon he assured me , that he had great confidence in me , and his kindness to me oblidged him to send for me , to acquaint me , that matters were now come to a crisis , and that he had reason to think england would shortly draw to arms , and stand by them , till they were satisfied anent the bill of exclusion , and what other security they could propose for the protestant religion , and their liberties , and that it was no project of any inconsiderable party but a design through the kingdom , and that many of the finest men , and of the greatest interest and credit there , had adjusted almost every thing necessar for the purpose , and had concerted matters with our friends there , in order to concurrence from this , and had agreed to advance money for furnishing armes here , ( i do not remember he told me more particulars at this time ) but said , polwart would be at gallow-shiels that night , and it would be necessar that the e. of tarras and i should confer with him fully , on the business , about this time the e. of tarras lighted , and torwoodlie having left us for a little time , being gone to bring mr. martin , the e. of tarras asked me , what news , i told him of mr. martins being there , but that he had given me no account of the design of his down-coming , which perhaps he would acquaint him with , but by what i had heard from torwoodlie , i understood it to be , to engadge us to rise in arms shortly , whereat the e. of tarras hummed , and said , he would look ere he leapt , such a leap , or some such expressions , presently mr. martin came , and the e. of tarras and he retired a little , after the reading an letter , he gave him , the contents whereof was ( as the e. of tarras informed me ) only an order from jerviswood , to deliver some money to the bearer , which he had left with him , and the e. of tarras called for his servant , and bad him bring up the money ; in the mean time , torwoodlie asked me , if i had acquainted the e. of tarras with what he spoke to me , and i told him , i had let something of it fall to him , but it was not to be thought , that persons of sense & quality would engadge in such designs at random ; so torwoodlie said , that ( though mr. martin would not commune with us upon his commission directly ) yet he thought it would be fit , we conferred , and without taking notice of his commission , discoursed of things upon suppositions , and as our own privat notions , abstract from any prospect of a present design , so after dinner , we four went to a chamber , and after some general discourses , of the discontents of both kingdoms , these suppositions following were discoursed ( and as i remember ) mr. martin started them all , or the most part ) viz. what if the countrey party in england should have thoughts of going to arms ( whereof he knew nothing but only supposed such a thing , for discoursing a little freely , and to know our sentiments , what we thought could be expected here in such a case ) would it not be expedient to have a settled correspondence betwixt that party there and here , and might not matters be so adjusted , that both kingdoms should draw out in one day , and might not as many be expected to undertake in these shires , and about edinburgh , as would serve to surprize , and seize our rulers ( i do not remember any named , but the then chancellour and thesaurer ) and some to joyn with these on the english borders , to assist them to surprize berwick ; and if for that effect , any horse , or dragoons , that should be in the bounds might not be surprized , that their horse and arms might be gotten to furnish the countrey people , and stirling castle ; and if argile should at the same time land in the west , and raise that countrey , would not these measures contribute much to the advancement and security of the interest of that party here , since thereby the government would be disordered , and such steps would encourage all that had an inclination to the countrey party , to draw to them frankly , and scar many of the other side to act against them , and so they might have leasure to joyn from all places ; and might it not be expected , there would be as many in this kingdom , as would be able to deal with the forces here , at least divert them from troubling england . this is the sum , as i remember , of what was proposed , and discourst of , though i cannot distinctly say , it was in this method , and expression , nor was all moved at once , but droped now and then , as the discourse seem'd to give rise to it ; and though i cannot fully re-count all that was spoke on these heads , and tell distinctly , what this and that man said ; yet i remember these following answers were giving , and ( as i judged ) acquiesced to by the whole company ; and they were certainly the e. of tarras , his sentiments and mine , and every one that spoke , used this or some such precaution , that if they were concerned , or to give counsel in any such case , as they were not , &c. ) . as to the settling a correspondence , it was confest to be very convenient for those of a common interest ; but the present circumstances of affairs were such ( as was thought , ) that none could be found here who was sit to mannage it , and would undertake it . . as to the trysting at the same time , it could not be done without the devulging the design to all ranks of people , which none would undertake , except these already in desperat circumstances , and they could not have generally much influence . . the thing was not at all adviseable for this kingdom , since if any of englands own measures miscarried , they would not stur for any such trust ; and the spring of their motions being always at london , there might happen an interruption near the appointment , whereof these here could have no timous notice , and so might keep tryst , whereby they would be exposed a prey ; and if they should subsist any time , or prevail ( which was hardly possible ) the multitude that must be imployed , are tainted with such wild and unruly principles , that if once they got the sword in their hands , they would never be brought to order without a greater force to over-awe them ; neither would any expectation of argiles landing , be a just ground for such a tryst , considering the uncertainty of sea-voyages ; and if argile were to be the head , undoubtedly many people would conclude that he were to be suspected of private designs , and that restoring him , might lay him aside : as also , that dispair might blind his usual prudence , and prompt him to unsolid , and undigested methods ; and so it was to be expected , that few of the gentry ( except such as he had special influence on , or such as were under hard circumstances ) could embarque with him . . as to the surprising rulers , &c. it was inveigh'd against , as an action not to be thought of amongst protestants ( especially when the very design of it was pretended , to secure that religion , which taught its professors to abhor and detest such principles as popish , yea un-christian ) since it could not be effectuat without blood-shed of people , secure in peace , which being by all approven , divines and casuists condemned as unlawful , and meer assassination ; it was not to be doubted , that as such a practice would cast a blot upon the whole affair , and quite take off any pretence of defensive arms , so it would scar many from joyning . these things were reasoned again and again : but i do not remember there was any formal conclusion made , but the discourse was let fall ; and mr. martin told us , if any of us had a mind for a suit of armour , he could provide as many as we pleased , from one who had made a great many lately , to honest men at london , of a new fashion , very light , and at an easie rate ; so torwoodlie and i gave him our measures , e. of tarras told he had a suit already ; then torwoodlie said to the e. of tarras and me , we would meet polwort at gallowsheils , and desired we might commun with him , anent what we had been discoursing , so we hasted away , that if possible , we might both get home that night , it being saturnday , and we unfurnished , for staying abroad , and torwoodlie whispered me just as i was mounting ( as i think ) that he was not clear we should commun before gallowshiels , for he was sometimes too much good-fellow , or the like ; so the e. of tarras and i rod away together , and upon the way we were both of opinion , that the suppositions we had discoursed of , were in effect propositions , and resolv'd , if they were insisted on by polwort , as we suspected , we would adhere to the former answer , and would undertake nothing in these methods ; when we came to gallowsheils , the laird was abroad , and polwort was not come , so we had thoughts to go away , being both damped with what had passed , and inclining to be free of farder medling ; but the lady would by no means hear of our going till her husband came ; who , she assured us , was about the doors , and she having sent to call him , he would be in presently ; yet it was so late ere he came , that the e. of tarras could hardly have day enough to go home with ; so gallowsheils would not let him go , and he would not stay , unless i stay'd , so we both stayed ; and not being resolv'd to discourse with gallowsheils on what passed , we went to the tavern , on pretence i might call the baillie , and seek horses for lime , and stay'd there till polwort came ( which seemed unknown to gallowsheils ) then we returned to gallowsheils house , and after supper polwort whispered the e. of tarras and me , and enquired if we had seen mr. martin ; and we having told him we had , he enquired , if we were free to commun on the affair before gallowsheils , we told , as he thought fit , for we could trust him ; then he whispered gallowsheils , and ( as i understood afterwards ) asked if he was free to commune on matters of great secrecy and importance with that company , to which he assented , then we sat down closs together , and as i remember , polwort began the discourse ; but since i am not able to follow exactly the method of our conference , or keep the very expressions used , or repeat all that was spoke , or to tell distinctly what was every mans part of the discourse ; i shall set down the heads , and most remarkable passages thereof , that i remember in some articles following ; . polwort signified that he was credibly informed ( but i do not remember he named his informer ) that the countrey party in england would draw to the fields shortly , as he heard before lambass , wherewith gallowsheils seem'd visibly surprized ; and being asked , if his heart fail'd him already , he said he did love it better truly to be walking in his own parks in peace , and quiet , than to be medling in such matters ; however he assured the company , that if there came any troublesome world , he would joyn with them firmly ; and the f. of tarras said , he wondred to hear of any such resolution in england , for he took it for a principle amongst that party there , that they should make no stir in the kings life ( which the whole company owned to be their opinion and desire ) because that might strengthen the dukes interest ; and he suspected it was the project of the common-wealths men , with whom he believed , few scots gentlemen would joyn ; and he was almost perswaded the d. of monmouth would not concur in any rising during the kings life , to which it was answered by polwort , that he had indeed heard that principle had been generally agreed to , but it seem'd they found , they behoved either to do their business now , or lay aside hopes of doing it hereafter , which might be , that if the charter of london were let fall , they would not only lose all safe opportunity of digesting matters ; but a great part of their strength , and he heard all things were concerted mutually , betwixt monmouths friends and the heads of the commonwealth party ; and tho he heard monmouth was shy on that account , yet it was hop'd he would engage , for otherways he would be deserted by that party . . polwart told us the suppositions above-written as overtures concerted betwixt our friends at london , and the principal men of that party there ; so the e. of tarras and i renewed our former answers also above-written , and maintained them with all our vigour , wherein gallowshiels joyned forwardly with us ; and polwart asserted , we went on very good grounds , and he was fully of our opinion , if things were entire , but referr'd it to be considered , whether it were better to comply with some of these methods , tho not so proper and justifiable as were to be wish'd , then to disappoint the business totally , which might be of the best consequence to all the party , yet we did not condescend as i remember to undertake any of these methods . and there was a further argument adduced against the trysting above-written , viz. that is was talked there was a day appointed in england lately in shaftsherry's time , which did not hold , so they were not to be relyed upon . . it was proposed to be considered what methods were most proper in the companies opinion for scotland to follow in case of englands rising , whereanent it was said , that all that could be expected or desired from scotland , was , that upon the certain news of englands being in the fields , those in the southern shires who would own that party , should presently rise , and ( how soon they could get as many conveen'd as would be able to deal with stragling parties , or any sudden rising in the countrey ) march to joyn them , and that it would be fit these in the northern shires of england waited near the borders for such , and that they had officers trysted there to command , and that then it would be seasonable for argile to land in the west , and these parties on the borders might divert the forces til he had time to put himself in a posture . these things seem'd to be the sentiments of the whole company , but were not finally determined till the opinion of others who were to be communed with by polwart were knowen : and it was represented , there behoved not to be any wilful and obstinate adhering to our own thoughts of things , ( but an mutual condescendance to others concerned , ) otherwise it were not possible to bring a publick design to any good issue . . all the company seem'd to agree , that they should undertake nothing or move in that affair , till they had a full and certain account what england proposed , what methods they resolved to follow there , who were to be their heads , and that if they design'd any attempt on the kings person , or overturning monarchy , they would not be forward or clear to joyn : and it being here insinuated , that the most they could do ( at least for which there could be any plausible pretence to justifie ) was to draw together , and without any act of hostility , send addresses to his majesty for redress of the present abuses of the government , and for obtaining sufficient security against the hazard they apprehended to their religion and liberties . it was said by polwart that he was apt to think , that was their very design , for he had heard it was generally believed by that party in england , that if once they were in a body , the king would be prevailed with to quite the duke , to be tryed for popery , correspondence with france , and accession to the popish plot , and then if the king were once free from the influence of the dukes counsels , they were confident he might be moved to reform their abuses , and secure their religion and liberties for the future to their contentment . . it was resolved , that till we got the foresaid account from england , and were satisfied thereanent , and knew others here ( who were to be communed with ) their sentiments of what methods were most proper for us , in case we should undertake , we should not meddle further ; only it was left to the earl of tarras and me , if we thought fit to acquaint sir william scot younger with some of the matter of this conference overly , without taking notice of our informers ▪ or such an conference ; and it was recommended to all to be enquiring ( at such as they had some trust in ) indirectly about the affection of our neighbours , and what arms there was amongst them ; that if we should get an satisfying account , and resolve to joyn , we might know where to seek men and arms suddenly ; here it was said by polwart , as i think , that if the e. of tarras , torwoodlie , gallow-shiels , and i once took horse , he thought the most part of the west end of of tiviotdale and selkirk shire would soon come to us , especially , when they heard england was risen , then we trysted to meet there against mid-summer fair , betwixt and which the forsaid account was expected , but in case it came to any of our hands sooner , we promised to advertise the rest , that we might meet presently , if the case required ; this is the substance and sum of what passed at the forsaid conference , that i can now rememeber ; but i remember , i was likewise told these following particulars in privat ▪ by polwart , or torwoodlie , ( which of them , i cannot distinctly tell ) the day of the forsaid conference , or within a short time after . . that polwart keeped the correspondence with our friends at london , i remember not positively of any of them that was named , to be on the entrigue there , except my lord melvil , sir john cochran , jerviswood , and commissar monro ( for i hardly knew any of the rest ) and as i think , commissar monro was call'd his correspondent there . . that the money to be advanced by the english partie to scotland was ready , when mr. martin came from london , and it was expected , that within few days after , it would be dispatched with some confident to holland , ( whither by bills , or in cash , i cannot say ) it was call'd ten thousand pound sterlin , and was to be imployed ( as i was told ) by that confident , at argyles sight , for buying arms , providing ships to transport them with argyle , to the west here , and such other charges . . that how soon our friends at london got notice of the safe arrival , of the confident forsaid , and all other things were finally concluded there ( which was expected would be about the midle of june , as i remember ) they would come home , and as they passed , would give them , or one of them , an particular account of all resolutions taken , to be communicat to the rest , that it was not to be expected by letters , that behoved to be under figures , and dark expressions , and as i remember , they were written as it were about the carolina business , or some houshold furniture , as i was told , for i never remember , i saw any letter , either direct to london , or sent from it on that head . . i was told there was a sign , and a word agreed on by that party , so that men might know with whom they might use freedom , the word , as i remember was harmony , and the sign , the opening two buttons in the breast coat and shutting them presently ; this i communicate to the earl of tarras , but does not mind i ever saw it used , except when i visited park-hay here in town , about the end of june ; we discoursing a little freely , he asked if i had the word and sign of the carolina men , and i having given them , he said something to this purpose , that he was afraid that the carolina business did not go well , for there had been some of the managers expected here ( as i think he named jerviswood or commissar monro ) these eight days past , but there was none come , nor could he learn that any of their friends had heard from them for several posts . polwart , torwoodlie , and i met at gallowshiels , on midsummer fair , but i mind nothing passed but private whisperings . dated september . . and subscrived thus , james murray . edinburgh , december . . the deposition above-written being read to the said james murray of philiphaugh , in presence of the justices and assizers , he adheres thereto in all points upon oath . sic subscribitur , james murray . linlithgow , i. p. d. the said james murray further depons , that at their meeting at gallowshiels , it was resolved , that they should keep up their cess unpayed till their next meeting at midsummer , which was to be at gallowshiels , and should deal with all these they had influence upon to do the like , and that upon the supposition mentioned in his oath given in . it was spoke amongst them that the troupers horses should be seized upon , when they were grasing . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , james murray . linlithgow , i. p. d. hvgh scot of gallowshiels , aged . years , married , purged , &c. and sworn . depons , that the earl of tarras and philiphaugh did come to the deponents house , in may , . and polwart came likewise there , where there were discourses and proposals , that if the english would rise in arms , their friends in the south shires should rise with them ; and that they should seize the horses belonging to the kings troops where they grased , and the town of berwick , and the castle of stirling : and likewise it was there discoursed anent the late earl of argiles coming to invade scotland , but because of the uncertainty of sea voyages , there was not much stress laid upon it . depons , it was also proposed , that some of the south countrey whom they trusted in should be acquainted with it , and that endeavours should be used to learn what arms was in the countrey . depons , there was some such discourse there , as that the earl of tarras , philiphaugh , torwoodlie , polwart , and some others should draw to horse with the first when the rising should be in readiness , that it might be expected that the south parts of teviotdale and selkirk shire would joyn with them . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. sic subscribitur , hugh scot. linlithgow , i. p. d. his majesties advocat produc'd other depositions , emitted by gallowshiels before the lords of the secret committee , whereof the tenor follows . edinburgh , the of september . gallowsheils depons , that the e. of tarras and philiphaugh , being in his house in may . discoursed of an intended rising in england , and of proposals made to scots men , to rise with them , and of london in particular , and that polwort was present at that meeting , and told he was sure the englishmen intended so , and that it was discoursed at that meeting amongst them , that it were fit to seize berwick and stirling ; and that it was talked amongst them of bringing the duke of york to tryal , and that the king would abandon him . sic subscribitur , hugh scot. perth , cancel . queensberry george mckenzie . jo. drummond . george mckenzie . edinburgh , october . . sederunt . lord chancellour . lord president . lord secretary . lord advocat . the laird of gallowsheils , prisoner in the tolbuith of edinburgh , being call'd and examin'd upon oath , depons , that in the moneth of may . the e. of tarras , hume of polwert elder , and laird of philiphaugh , came to the deponents house , himself being absent , at his coming home , they were speaking of the security of the protestant religion ; and of a party in england , who would secure , or seize the king or duke , and that if any should rise in arms to defend them , or to rescue the king and duke : there was another party who would rise in arms against them , it was proposed , that some countrey men should be spoken to , to try their resolutions , and that the resolutions of england should be told them , to see if they would concur . but the deponent does not remember that this proposition was approven , or undertaken to be done by any present ; nor does he remember who mannag'd the discourse . it was likewise propos'd , to seize the officers of state , especially the chancellour and thesaurer , and they said , sir john cochran was to come to the west from england , for advancement of the design ; and that the earl of argile was to land in the west-highlands , and to raise that countrey . of these matters , all these who were present discoursed , as of an affair that they were agitating , and wherein themselves were particularly concerned , though at that time they did not conclude what their carriage should be ; the reason why the deponent cannot be more particulars is , because he was sometimes going out , and sometimes walking up and down the room ; and though the deponent cannot be positive of the very words ; yet he is positive they were either these words , or words to that purpose . sic subscribitur , hugh scot. perth cancellarius . edinburgh , december . . hvgh scot of gallowsheils being solemnly sworn in presence of the justices and assize , adheres to the depositions within , and above-written in all points , sic subscribitur . hugh scot. linlithgow , i. p. d. his majesties advocat in fortification of the former probation , adduces the printed copy of mr. william carstares depositions , emitted before the officers of state , and other lords of privy council , and leaves the same to the assise , and uses it as an adminicle of probation ; for though it was capitulat , that he should not be made use of as a witness ; yet it was agreed , that the deposition should be published : and likewise produces the principal deposition signed by himself , and the saids lords . the lords , justice-general , justice-clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , admit the paper produced as an adminicle , and refers the import thereof to the inquest , and ordains the printed paper as it is collationed , to be taken in , and considered by the inquest . sir william paterson , and mr. colin mckenzie , clerks of his majesties privy council being interrogat , if they heard mr. william carstares own the depositions read , depons they saw and heard him swear , and own the same upon oath , and they collationed the printed copie with the original formerly ; and now they heard it collationed , sic subscribitur , will. paterson . colin mckenzie . the deposition of mr. william carstares , when he was examined before the lords of secret committee , given in by him , and renewed upon oath ; upon the . of december . in presence of the lords of his majesties privy council . edinburgh castle , september . . mr. william carstares being examined upon oath , conform to the condescention given in by him , and on the terms therein-mentioned ; depons , that about november , or december . james stuart , brother to the laird of cultness , wrot a letter to him from holland , importing , that if any considerable sum of money could be procur'd from england , that something of importance might be done in scotland : the which letter , the deponent had an inclination to inform shepherd in abb-church-lane , merchant in london of ; but before he could do it , he wrot to mr. stuart above-nam'd to know from him , if he might do it ; and mr. stuart having consented , he communicat the said letter to mr. shepherd , who told the deponent that he would communicat the contents of it to some persons in england ; but did at that time name no body , as the deponent thinks : sometime thereafter , mr. shepherd told the deponent , that he had communicat the contents of the letter above-named , to colonel sidney , and that colonel dunvers was present , and told the deponent , that colonel sidney was averse from imploying the late earl of argile , or medling with him , judging him a man too much affected to the royal family , and inclin'd to the present church-government ; yet mr. shepherd being put upon it by the deponent , still urg'd , that one might be sent to the earl of argile ; but as mr. shepherd told him , he was suspected upon the account of his urging so much ; yet afterwards he press'd , without the deponents knowledge , that the deponent being to go to holland however , might have some commission to the earl of argile , which he having inform'd the deponent of , the deponent told him , that he himself would not be concern'd , but if they would send another , he would introduce him ; but nothing of this was done : upon which the deponent went over , without any commission from any body , to holland , never meeting with james stuart above-nam'd : he was introduc'd to the earl of argile , with whom he had never before convers'd ; and did there discourse what had past betwixt mr. shepherd and him ; and particularly , about remitting of money to the said earl from england ; of which the said mr. stuart had written to the deponent , namely of pounds sterling ; and of the raising of horse and dragoons ; and the securing the castle of edinburgh , as a matter of the greatest importance : the method of doing this was propos'd by the deponent , to be one hour , or thereby , after the relieving of the guards : but the earl did not relish this proposition , as dangerous ; and that the castles would fall of consequence , after the work abroad was done . james stuart was of the deponents opinion for seizing the castle ; because it would secure edinburgh ; the magazins and arms , as to the horse and dragoons . my lord argile was of opinion , that without them nothing was to be done ; and that if that number were rais'd in england to the said earl , he would come into scotland with them ; and that there being so few horse and dragoons to meet them , he judg'd he might get the countrey without trouble , having such a standing body for their friends to rendezvous to ; and the said earl said he could show the deponent the conventient places for landing , if he understood ; and as the deponent remembers , where the ships could attend . the deponent remembers not the names of the places . the deponent spoke to the lord stairs ; but cannot be positive that he nam'd the affair to him , but found him shy : but the earl of argile told him , he thought stairs might be gain'd to them : and that the earl of lowdoun being a man of good reason , and disobliged , would have great influence upon the countrey , and recommended the deponent to major holms with whom the deponent had some acquaintance before , and had brought over a letter from him to the earl of argyle ; but the deponent had not then communicate any thing to the said holms . james steuart laid down a way of correspondence by cyphers and false names , and sent them over to holms , and the deponent , for their use ( which cyphers and names , are now in the hands of his majesties officers , as the deponent supposes , ) and did desire the deponent earnestly to propose the . pound sterling above-named to the party in england , and did not propose any less ; for as the earl told the deponent , he had particularly calculate the expence for arms , ammunition , &c. but james steuart said , that if some less could be had , the earl would content himself , if better might not be ; but the earl always said , that there was nothing to be done without the body of horse and dragoons above-mentioned . during the time of the deponent his abode in holland , tho he had several letters from shepard , yet there was no satisfactory account , till some time after the deponent parted from the earl of argyle , and was making for a ship at rotterdam to transport himself to england . james steuart wrot to him that there was hopes of the money . the next day after the deponent came to england , he met with sir john cochran , who , with commissar monro , and jerviswood , was at london before he came over ; and depons , that he knows not the account of their coming , more then for the perfecting the transaction about carolina : and having acquainted sir john cochran with the earls demands of the pound sterling and the . horse and dragoons , sir john carried him to the lord russel , to whom the deponent proposed the affair , but being an absolute stranger to the deponent , had no return from him at that time ; but afterwards having met him accidently at mr. shepards house , where he the lord bussel had come to speak to shepard about the money abovenamed , as mr. shepard told the deponent . the deponent ( when they were done speaking ) desired to speak to the lord russel , which the lord russel did , and having reiterate the former proposition for the . pound sterling , and the . horse and dragoons , he the lord russel told the deponent , they could not get so much raised at the time , but if they had . pound to begin , that would draw people in , and when they were once in , they would soon be brought to more ; but as for the . horse and dragoons , he could say nothing at the present , for that behoved to be concerted upon the borders . the deponent made the same proposal to mr. ferguson , who was much concerned in the affair , and zealous for the promoving of it . this mr. ferguson had in october or november before , as the deponent remembers in a conversation with the deponent in cheap-fide , or the street somewhere thereabout , said , that for the saving of innocent blood , it would be necessary to cut off a few , insinuating the king and duke , but cannot be positive whether he named them or not , to which the deponent said , that 's work for our wild people in scotland , my conscience does not serve me for such things ; after which the deponent had never any particular discourse with ferguson , as to that matter ; but as to the other affair , ferguson told the deponent that he was doing what he could to get it effectuate , as particularly that he spoke to one major wildman who is not of the deponent his acquaintance . ferguson blamed always sidney , as driving designs of his own . the deponent met twice or thrice with the lord melvil , sir john cochran , jerviswood , commissar monro , the two cessnocks , mongomery of langshaw , and one mr. veitch , where they discoursed of money to be sent to argyle , in order to the carrying on the affair , and tho he cannot be positive the affair was named , yet it was understood by himself , and as he conceives by all present , to be for rising in arms , for rectifying the government . commissary monro , lord melvil , and the two cessnocks were against medling with the english , because they judged them men that would talk , and would not do , but were more inclined to do something by themselves , if it could be done . the lord melvil thought every thing hazardous , and therefore the deponent cannot say he was positive in any thing , but was most inclined to have the duke of monmouth to head them in scotland , of which no particular method was laid down . jerviswood , the deponent , and mr. veitch , were for taking money at one of these meetings . it was resolved , that mr. martin , late clerk to the justice court should be sent to scotland , to desire their friends to hinder the countrey from rising , or taking rash resolutions upon the account of the council , till they should see how matters went in england . the said martin did go at the charges of the gentlemen of the meeting , and was directed to the laird of polwart and torwoodlie , who sent back word that it would not be found so easie a matter to get the gentrie of scotland to concur : but afterwards in a letter to commissar monro , polwart wrot that the countrey was readier to concur than they had imagined , or something to that purpose . the deponent , as above-said , having brought over a key from holland , to serve himself and major holms : he remembers not that ever he had an exact copy of it , but that sometimes the one , sometimes the other keeped it , and so it chanced to be in his custody when a letter from the earl of argyle came to major holms , intimating , that he would joyn with the duke of monmouth , and follow his measures , or obey his directions . this mr. veitch thought fit to communicate to the duke of monmouth , and for the understanding of it was brought to the deponent , and he gave the key to mr. veitch , who as the deponent was informed , was to give it and the letter to mr. ferguson , and he to shew it to the duke of monmouth ; but what was done in it , the deponent knows not . the deponent heard the design of killing the king and duke , from mr. shepard , who told the deponent some were full upon it . the deponent heard that aron smith was sent by those in england to call sir john cochran , on the account of carolina , but that he does not know aron smith , or any more of that matter , not being concerned in it . shepard named young hamden frequently as concerned in these matters . signed at edinburgh castle , the . of september , . and renewed the of the same moneth . william carstares . perth cancell . i. p. d. edinburgh castle september . mr. william carstares being again examined , adheres to his former deposition , in all the parts of it , and depones he knows of no correspondence betwixt scotland and england , except by martin before named ; for those gentlemen to whom he was sent , were left to follow their own methods . veitch sometimes , as the deponent remembers , stayed sometimes at nicolson , stabler●s house , at london-wall ; sometimes with one widow hardcastle in more-fields . the deponent did communicate the design on foot to doctor owen , mr. griffil , and mr. meed , at stepney , who all concurred in the promoting of it , and were desirous it should take effect ; and to one mr. freth in the temple , councellor at law , who said that he would see what he could do in reference to the money , but there having gone a report , that there was no money to be raised , he did nothing in it ; nor does the deponent think him any more concerned in the affair . nelthrop frequently spoke to the deponent of the money to be sent to argyle , whether it was got or not , but the deponent used no freedom with him in the affair . goodenough did insinuate once , that the lords were not inclined to the thing , and that before , they would see what they could do in the city . the deponent saw mr. ferguson , and mr. rumsay , lurking after the plot broke out , before the proclamation , having gone to ferguson , in the back of bishopsgate-street , at some new building , whether he was directed by jerviswood , who was desirous to know how things went. rumsay was not of the deponent his acquaintance before , but they knew as little of the matter as the deponent . this is what the deponent remembers , and if any thing come to his memory , he is to deliver it in betwixt ▪ and the first of october . and this is the truth , as he shall answer to god. william carstares perth , cancell . i. p. d. at edinburgh , the . of december , . these foregoing depositions , subscribed by mr. william carstares deponent , and by the lord chancellor , were acknowledged on oath by the said mr. william carstares , to be his true depositions ; and that the subscriptions were his , in presence of us undersubscribers . william carstares . perth cancell . david falconer . george mckenzie , queensberry . athol . his majesties advocat for further probation , adduces the examinations of mr. shepard , taken before sir leolin jenkins secretary of state for england , with the information or deposition of mr. zachary bourn , relating to the plot , sign'd by him and secretary jenkins , of which depositions the tenors follow . the examination of thomas shepard of london merchant , taken upon oath before the right honourable sir leolin jenkins knight , his majesties principal secretary of state , the . day of december . . the deponent saith , that ferguson told him on , or about the moneth of april last , that an insurrection was intended both in england and in scotland , and that for the settling that affair betwixt the two nations , mr. baillie , mr. monro , sir john cochran , sir hugh and sir george campbels , with some others ( whose names this deponent heard not ) were come to london . that the deponent had some acquaintance with mr. baillie , mr. monro , and sir john cochran , and none at all with sir hugh and sir george campbels ; that mr. baillie told the deponent , that the earl of argile demanded thirty thousand pounds of the english to capacitat him to begin the business effectually in scotland , and that he the said baillie likewise told the deponent , that having concerted things with the lord russel and others , he the said baillie found an impossibility of raising that sum ; after which the said baillie had acquainted the deponent , that they were certainly promised ten thousand pounds , which sum was agreed to be payed into the deponents hands , in order to be remitted into holland , for the providing of arms ; and that the said baillie told the deponent at divers times , that the said sum , or at least one half of it would be payed such a day , and such a day ; and sometimes asked the deponent , if he had received any part of the said money , to which the deponent replyed that he had not , and that he the deponent scarce thought any would be payed . and the deponent also saith , that having had some little conversation with sir john cochran , he remembers well , that both of them did sometimes lament the delays in not paying in the money , and said , that although the said ten thousand pounds were pay'd in , they , the said sir john cochran and mr. monro , fear'd it would be too little ; and this deponent further sayeth not , as to any new matter . but the deponent being asked , to explain what he thought was meant by the words above written , vi●s , to capacitat him ( the earl of argile ) to begin the business , he , this deponent sayeth , that he did understand by the word business , an insurrection in scotland . sic. subscribitur , thomas shepard . jurat coram . l. jenkins . the information of zachary bourn of london , brewer ▪ taken upon oath , the tenth day of december . before the right honourable mr. secretary jenkins . the informant deposeth , and sayeth , that mr. baillie sat up one night , if not two , with mr. ferguson , and went several times in the evening with him to the duke of monmouth , and the chief mannagers of the conspiracy ; that ferguson told the deponent , that he the said baillie was the chief man for the scots , next to the lord argile ; that the said , baillie did sit up the greatest part of one night , with the said ferguson ; at which time this deponent believeth they were busie in preparing the intended declaration , which the deponent has the more reason to believe , in as much as the said ferguson did go about to show him the deponent , such a paper , wherein the said ferguson was hindered by the coming up stairs of some person , to speak with the said ferguson , that the said ferguson told the deponent , that the main business of the said baillie , in meeting the saids conspirators , was in order to get from them the ten thousand pounds , promised for the buying of arms ; for the insurrection intended in scotland . that the deponent saw mr. william carstares come often to the lodgings of the said ferguson ; but that the said ferguson never told the deponent of any discourse held by him with the said carstares : and further this deponent saith not . sic subscribitur , zac. bourn . jurat coram . l. jenkins . his majesties advocat likewise produced several warrands , and papers to prove , that those depositions are sign'd by sir leolin jenkins . his majesties advocat also produced the books of adjournal , bearing mr. william veitch to be a forefault traitor , and the act of parliament whereby the forefaulture is ratified . his majesties advocat's speech to the inquest . my lords and gentlemen , you have now a conspiracy against his majesties sacred person , and royal government , so fully discover'd , that they must want reason as well as loyalty , who do not believe the discovery ; and they must be enemies to sincerity , as well as to the king , who do not acknowledge it . beside , that the councils of all the three nations , thought the proof sufficient , for indicting a general thanksgiving through all these nations ; and that the judges of england thought the same strong enough to infer forefaulture of life and estate , against some of all ranks there ; you have a discovery made here from the late e. of argiles own letters , and the confession of his own emissaries , the two surest proofs that law ever invented , or the nature of humane affairs can allow ; and i am this day to add to all this , a new sett of proofs in the process that i now lead against this pannal , from the confessions of noblemen and gentlemen , who have been engaged in this wicked conspiracy ; and who from a sense of their guilt , are content freely to depose against their nearest relation , and their most intimate friend , in which having thus cleared to you , that there was really such a conspiracy , i shall , in the next place , proceed to prove this pannals accession to it . it cannot be imagined , that we would willingly involve our countrey men in it , without a conviction stronger then our kindness to scotland ; nor did his majesties servants accuse this pannal , without the opinion of the ablest lawyers of the kingdom , who did ▪ with them concur , to think that there was not the least occasision of doubting left , to the most indifferent inqueist of his guilt , after they had seriously , and with reflection , read over , and pondered the probation now laid before you : the person accused of accession to this cryme is the ring-leader of all those , who in this kingdom concurr'd with the english conspirators , as you may see by the testimonies of all who have deposed ; and it was indeed sit and just to begin with the most guilty , so that if he be not convicted , there should no man be punished for this conspiracie ; all the noise we have heard of it , is but a cheat , the kings judges have been murderers , all the witnesses have been knaves , and such as dyed for it have been martyrs . the accession charged on this pannal , is not an accidental escape , nor is it proved by witnesses , who can be suspected of unkindnes to his person , or his cause , for it is a long tract of a continued design , gone about with the greatest deliberation and concern imaginable , and proved by his nearest relations , and persons so deeply engadged in that cause , ( for which he suffers , ) that they were content with him to venture their lives and fortunes in that quarrel . he is not accused of a crime that can amount only to a single murder , though that be a dreadful cryme , but a rebellion , which was to draw upon us a civil war , that murder of murders , in which hundreths of thousands were to fall ; and to crown all , he was to begin , and to be the chief promoter of a rebellion , in which one of the first steps was to kill his sacred majestie , and his royal brother ; and one of the chief witnesses which i have led against him , is bourn , which bourn confessed that he was to kill the king , and who confesses the pannal sat up several nights with ferguson , the other contriver of the kings murder , and so familiar was he with him , that bourn depons , that the said pannal had been with ferguson ▪ at the drawing of the manifesto , whereby he was not only to be an actor , but to be the justifier of that horrid villanie : and therefore bourns depons , that ferguson , ( the best judge in that case ) looked upon him as the chief man , next to argyle ; but because no man is presumed to go to such a hight , without previous inclination and motives , i shall to convince you , that this gentleman was very capable of all that was lybelled against him , remember you , that he is nephew , and son in law to the late war●stoun , bred up in his family and under his tutory ; about the time of this plot it was undenyably known , and is now sufficiently proved , by two present witnesses , the earl of tarras and commissar monro , that he thought himself desperat , knowing himself to be guilty of treason by blackwoods case ; and as it 's presumable , that a man that 's guilty of one point of treason , will commit another ; so when a man is desperat as to his life and fortune , he is capable of any thing ; he was likewise animated to commit this cryme , by the intelligence he had that there was a plot in england , carryed on by men of so great parts , fortune and influence , and by the too probable hopes , that they would get all the western shires to joyn with them here , because of the common guilt , in which they had engadged themselves , by their late extravagances , they made and account of an assistance of twenty thousand men ; and by philiphaughs deposition , that these gentlemen expected the concurse of the southern-shires ; and thus , i am to prove to you a cryme , which is in it self , so probable and liklie , that it should need little probation , tho i have adduced for your conviction sufficient evidences , albeit the cryme were in it self very unliklie . the crymes which i hope i have proved , are , that jerviswood the pannal transacted for money to the late earl of argyl , a declared traitor . . that he designed to raise a rebellion . . that he intercommuned with the earl of argyle and mr. veitch declared traitors . . that he was present , where it was treated , either that argyle should have money from the english and assistance from scotland , or that a rebellion should be raised , and that he did not reveal the samine ; and all these being found relevant separatim , it is sufficient for me to have proved any one of them . and if a gentleman was lately found guilty of high-treason , by the opinion of all the lords of session , for not revealing , that sir john cochran sought fifty pound sterling from him , though he refused the same , and tho he believed , it was sought for a charitable subsistance to preserve him from starving ; what deserves this pannal , who sought thirty thousand pound sterling , to buy him arms , to invade his native countrey ? that jerviswood was designing to carry on a rebellion , or at least was accessory , or ( as our law terms it ) was art and part thereof , is clearly prov'd ; but that in this occult and hidden crime , which uses not to be prov'd by clear witnesses ; i may lead you thorow all the steps of the probation , which like the links of a chain , hang upon one another . you will be pleased to consider , that . it is proved that he desired a blind commission to go to england , not to manage the affairs of the carolina company , as he confess'd , but to push the people of england to do something for themselves , because they did only talk and not do ; and what he would have them to do , appears too clearly , because he tells the earl of tarras it was probable , that if the king were briskly put to it by the parliament of england , he would consent to exclude the duke from the succession : here is not only a treasonable design , ( though a design be sufficient in treason ) but here are express acts of treason proved , viz. the treating with the earl of tarras upon this design , the settling a correspondence with him for the prosecution of it , and the writing letters from london to him concerning it , and the sending down mr. martin to compleat it by a general rising : as he design'd to push on the english , so he prosecutes closely this design upon all occasions . on the road he complains cunningly and bitterly , that our lives , laws and liberties , and the protestant religion were in danger , the stile and method of all such as design to rebel ; after he arrives at london , he engages the conspirators there to assist the late earl of argile ▪ a declar'd traitor , with money to buy arms ; this was indeed to push the english to do the most dangerous things by the most dangerous man ▪ and in the most dangerous methods . he enters also in a strict correspondence with ferguson the contriver ▪ with shepard the thesaurer , and carstares the chaplain of the conspiracy . alexander monro another present witness , proves that he argued with him , that it was necessary to give argile money expressly for carrying on the rebellion , and that they did meet at jerviswoods chamber where this was spoke of , and from which mr. robert martin was sent to their friends in scotland to know what they would do ; and though the silly caution was , that they sent him to prevent their rising , yet a man must renounce common sense , not to see that the design was to incite them to rebellion , and to prevent only their doing any thing in this rebellious design , by which they might lose themselves in a too early and abortive insurrection here , till things were ready in england . for , . this comission was given him in a place , and by a company who had been themselves treating immediatly before of sending money to the late e. of argile to buy arms , and certainly those arms were to be bought for men , and not for a magazine . . they were treating how many men could be raised in scotland . . carstares deposition bears , that martin was sent to hinder rash resolutions , till they saw how matters went in england , and the return to their embassy bore , that it would not be an easie matter to get the gentry of scotland to concur ; but afterwards better hopes of their rising was given , which could not have been , if the true commission had not been to raise scotland . . that sir john cochran made a speech to that purpose , is expressly prov'd , and that jerviswood spoke to the same purpose , is prov'd by a necessary consequence ; for since it 's prov'd that he spoke , and that he did not speak against it , it must necessarily follow that he spoke for it , though the witness is so cautious , that he cannot condescend upon the words now after so long a time ; and it is against sense to think , that jerviswood who in privat press'd the same so much upon commissar monro , and who was the deacon-conveener here , and who , as mr. martin their envoy declared , was the person who was to be sent for the arms , should not himself have been the most forward man in that design , but above all exitus acta probat , this commissioner , ( who being a meer servant , durst not have proposed any thing from himself , being a mean person , and being one , who , as the earl of tarras deposes , would say nothing , but what was in his paper : ) does expresly declare , that he came from jerviswood and others ; and in the meeting with him , a rebellion is actually formed , and it is resolved , they should seize the king's officers of state , garisons , and forces , and that they should joyn with the late e. of argyle , and put their own forces in a condition to joyn with these forces that were to come from england , and they gave a sign , and a word , which uses only to be done in actual war ; so here is treason clearly prov'd , by two present witnesses , from the first design to it's last perfection . nor can it be objected , that they are not concurring witnesses , but testes singulares upon separat acts , for in reiterable crimes , witnesses deposing upon different acts ; do prove if the deeds tend to the same end ; as for instance , if one witnes should depose , that they saw a traitor sit in a council of war , in one place , and in another place , they saw him in arms , or that one saw him assist at a proclamation in one place , and saw him in arms in another ; or that one saw him writ a treasonable paper , and another saw him use it ; these witnesses are still considered as contestes , or concurring witnesses , and ten or twelve inqueists have so found , and upon their verdict , rebells have been lately hang'd . the learn'd judges of england being all met together did expresly find , that one witnes proving , that a. b. said , that he was going to buy a knife to kill the king , and another deposing , that he saw him buy a knife , without telling for what , that these two witnesses were contestes , and prov'd sufficiently the cryme of treason , yet there the one witnes , prov'd only a remote design , and the other an act , which was indifferent of it's own nature , and became only treasonable by the connexion ; but no vvitnesses ever deposed upon things so coherent , and so connected together , as these do , for they depose still upon the same person , carrying on the same design of a rebellion ; as to which , in one place , he is exciting his own nephew , and telling him his resolutions , and settling a correspondence with him , at another time , he presses commissar monro to the same rebellion . at a third , he holds a meeting at his own chamber , and speaks concerning it , and from that meeting , he sends a trusty , who formes the rebellion . besides all this , tho two vvitnesses be sufficient , i have adduced mr. william carstares chief conspirator , and who choos'd rather to suffer violent torture , than to disclose it , he likewise deposes upon all these steps , and connects them together , and this his deposition is twice reiterated , upon oath , after much premeditation . and i likewise adduce two depositions taken upon oath , by sir leolin jenkins , who was impower'd by the law of england , and at the command of the king , and the council of england , upon a letter from his majesties officers of state here , in which deposition , shepard , one of the vvitnesses , deposes , that baillie came frequently to him , and desired him to advance the money , and lamented the delays , and that there was so little to be advanced ; and who should be better believed then one who was his own trustie , and a person who was able to advance so great a sum ; bourn , another of the vvitnesses , deposes , that ferguson told him , that the pannal spoke frequently to him concerning the same money , and that he sat up several nights with ferguson upon the said conspiracy ; and who should be better believed then fergusons confident , and one who was so far trusted in the whole affair , that he was to take away that sacred life , which heaven has preserv'd by so many miracls . against these three depositions , you have heard it objected , that non testimonia sed testes probant , especially by our law , in which , by an express act of parliament , no probation is to be led , but in presence of the assise and pannal . to which it is answered , that these depositions are not meer testimonies ; for i call a testimony , a voluntar declaration , emitted without an oath , and a judge ; but these depositions are taken under the awe of an oath , and by the direction of a judge . ● shepard was confronted with the pannal himself , and he had nothing to say against him ; whereas the great thing that can be objected against testimonies ( and by our statute especially ) is , that if the party who emits the testimony had been confronted with the pannal ; the impression of seeing a person that was to die , by his deposition , would have made him afraid to depose laxly ; and the pannal likewise might , by proposing interrogators and questions , have cleared himself , and satisfi'd the judges in many things depos'd against him : but so it is that mr. shepard having been confronted with the pannal , before the king himself , who is as far above other judges , in his reason and justice , as he is in his power and authority ; he deposes that the pannal was the chief mannager of this conspiracy , next to argile , and that he was so passionat to have this money to buy arms , that he lamented the delays ; and can it be imagined that mr. shepard whom he trusted with his life and his fortune , and whom all their party trusted with their cash , would have depos'd any thing against him that was not true , especially when he knew that what he was to depose , was to take away his life and his fortune ; or that if the pannal had been innocent , he would not when he was confronted with mr. shepard , before the king himself , have roar'd against mr. shepard , if he had not been conscious to his own guilt . there is a surprise in innocence , which makes the innocent exclaim , and it inspires men with a courage , which enables them to confound those who depose falsly against them ; and in what occasion could either of these have appear'd , more than in this , wherein this gentleman was charg'd to have conspir'd with the greatest of rascals , against the best of princes ; and that too in presence of the prince himself , against whom he had conspir'd , but guilt stupifies indeed , and it did never more than in this gentlemans case , whose silence was a more convincing witness than mr. shepard could be mr. carstares likewise knew when he was to depone , that his deposition was to be used against jerviswood , and he stood more in awe of his love to his friend , than of the fear of the torture , and hazarded rather to die for jerviswood , than that jerviswood should die by him : how can it then be imagin'd , that if this man had seen jerviswood in his tryal , it would have altered his deposition ; or that this kindness , which we all admir'd in him , would have suffer'd him to forget any thing in his deposition , which might have been advantageous in the least to his friend : and they understand ill this hight of friendship , who think that it would not have been more nice and careful , than any advocat could have been : and if carstares had forgot at one time , would he not have supplyed it at another ; but especially at this last time , when he knew his friend was already brought upon his tryal : and that this renew'd testimony was yet a further confirmation of what was said against him ; and albeit the kings servants were forced to engage , that carstares himself should not be made use of as a witness against jerviswood ; yet i think this kind scrupulosity in carstares for jerviswood , should convince you more than twenty suspect , nay than even indifferent witnesses ; nor can it be imagined , that the one of these witnesses would not have been as much afraid of god , and his oath at london , as at edinburgh ; and the other in the council-chamber in the forenoon , as in the justice-court in the afternoon . . the statute founded on , does not discharge the producing of testimonies otherways than after the jury is inclos'd ; for then indeed they might be dangerous , because the party could not object against them : but since the statute only discharges to produce writ , or witnesses , after the jury is inclos'd ; it seems clearly to insinuat , that they ought to prove when they are produc'd in presence of the party himself , as now they are . and though the civil law did not allow their judges to believe testimonies , because they were confin'd to observe strict law ; yet it does not from that follow , that our juries , whom the law allows to be a law to themselves , and to be confin'd by no rule , but their conscience , may not trust intirely to the depositions of witnesses , though not taken before themselves , when they know that the witnesses , by whom , and the judges , before whom these depositions were emited , are persons beyond all suspition , as in our case . but yet for all this , i produce these testimonies , as adminicles here only to connect the depositions of the present witnesses , and not to be equivalent to witnesses in this legal process ; albeit , as to the conviction of mankind , they are stronger than any ordinary witnesses . when you , my lords and gentlemen , remember that it is not the revenge of a privat party , that accuses in this case ; and that even in privat crimes , such as forgery , or the murder of children , &c. many juries here have proceeded upon meer presumptions , and that even solomon himself , founded his illustrious decision , approv'd by god almighty , upon the presum'd assertion of a mother ; i hope ye will think two friends deposing , as present witnesses , adminiculated and connected by the depositions of others , though absent ; should beget in you an intire belief , especially against a pannal , who has been alwayes known to incline this way , and who , though he was desired in the tolbooth to vindicat himself from those crimes , would not say any thing in his own defence , and though he offers to clear himself of his accession to the kings murder , yet sayes nothing to clear himself from the conspiracy entered into with the late earl of argile , for invading his native countrey , which is all that i here charge upon him , and which he inclines to justifie , as a necessary mean for redressing grievances ; i must therefore remember you , that an inquest of very worthy genlemen did find rathillet guilty , tho there was but one witness led against him , because when he was put to it , he did not deny his accession : and two rogues were found guilty in the late circuit at glasgow , for having murdered a gentleman of the guard , though no man saw them kill him ; but the murderers having been pursued , they run to the place out of which the pannals then accused were taken , none having seen the face of the run-aways ; and the pannals being accus'd , and press'd to deny the accession , shun'd to disown the guilt , but desired it might he proved against them . this may convince you that there are proofs which are stronger then witnesses ; and i am sure that there were never more proving witnesses then in this case , nor were the depositions of witnesses ever more strongly adminiculated . remember the danger likewise of emboldening conspiracies against the kings sacred life , and of encouraging a civil war , wherein your selves and your posterity may bleed , by making the least difficulty to find a man guilty by the strongest proofs that ever were adduced in so latent a crime as a conspiracy is . and i do justly conclude , that whoever denys that a conspiracy can be thus prov'd , does let all the world see that he inclines that conspiracies should be encouraged and allow'd . our age is so far from needing such encouragements , that on the other hand ▪ in this , as in all other crimes , because the guilt grows frequent and dangerous , the probation should therefore be made the more easie , tho in this case the king needs as little desire your favour , as fear your justice . and i have insisted so much upon this probation , rather to convince the world of the conspiracy , than you that this conspirator is guilty . thereafter the lords ordained the assize to inclose , and return their verdict to morrow by nine a clock in the morning . edinburgh , december . the said day , the persons who past upon the assize of mr. robert baillie of jerviswood , return'd their verdict in presence of the saids lords ; whereof the tenor follows . the assize , all in one voice , finds the crimes of art and part in the conspiracy , and plot libelled ; and of concealing , and not revealing the same , clearly proven against mr. robert baillie the pannal , in respect of the depositions of witnesses and adminicles adduced . sic subscribitur , strathmore chancellor . after opening and reading of the which verdict of assyze , the lords , justice general , justice clerk , and commissioners of justiciary , therefore , by the mouth of james johnstoun dempster of court , decerned and adjudged the said mr. robert baillie of jerviswood to be taken to the mercat cross of edinburgh , this twentie fourth day of december instant , betwixt two and four a clock in the afternoon , and there to be hanged on a gibbet till he be dead , and his head to be cut off , and his body to be quartered in four , and his head to be affixt on the nether-bow of edinburgh , and one of his quarters to be affixt on the tolbooth of jedburgh , another on the tolbooth of lanerk , a third on the tolbooth of air , and a fourth on the tolbooth of glasgow ; and ordains his name , fame , memory , and honours to be extinct , his blood to be tainted , and his arms to be riven forth , and delate out of the books of arms , so that his posterity may never have place , nor be able hereafter to bruik , or joyse any honours , offices , titles or dignities , within this realm in time coming ; and to have forfaulted , ammitted and tint all and sundry his lands , heritages , tacks , steadings , rooms , possessions , goods and gear whatsoever , pertaining to him , to our soveraign lords use , to remain perpetually with his highness , in property , which was pronunced for doom . sic subscribitur . linlithgow . james foulis , i. lockhart , david balfour , roger hog , al. seton , p. lyon. extracted forth of the books of adjournal , by me mr. thomas gordon , clerk to the justice court , sic subscribitur : tho. gordon in pursuance of which sentence , his majesties heraulds , and pursevants , with their coats display'd ( after sound of trumpets , ) did publickly , in face of the court ( conform to the custom , in the sentences of treason ) in his majesties name and authority , cancel , tear and destroy the said mr. robert baillie his arms , threw them in his face , trampl'd them under foot ; and ordain'd his arms to be expunged out of the books of herauldry , his posterity to be ignoble , and never to injoy honour and dignity in time coming : and thereafter went to the mercat-cross of edinburgh , and solemnly tore and cancelled the said mr. robert baillie his arms , and affixed the samine on the said mercat-cross reversed , with this inscription ; the arms of mr. robert baillie late of jerviswood traitor . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e nota , that the ●arl of tarras de●on'd nothing a●ainst jerviswood ●ut what the other ●wo witnesses de●on'd against him●elf before the try●l , and upon which ●hereafter they be●ng renew'd , the earl was forfault●d ; so that there ●ould be no ground ●f suspicion from ●is circumstances . the proceedings at the assizes in southwark, for the county of surrey begun on thursday the th of march, and not ended till tuesday the of the same month, : being an account of the tryal of the woman for murdering her husband, with exact proof that came in against her, and her confession and pleas at the bar : upon which she was found guilty, and condemned to be burnt to ashes : as likewise, the tryals and condemnation of two notorious high-way-men : of a woman for murdering her bastard-childe : and of a man for another murder : together with a fall relation of all other remarkable passages there, and the number how many are to die, with their several facts : how many burnt in the hand, and how many to be transported, and to be whipped. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing p a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the proceedings at the assizes in southwark, for the county of surrey begun on thursday the th of march, and not ended till tuesday the of the same month, : being an account of the tryal of the woman for murdering her husband, with exact proof that came in against her, and her confession and pleas at the bar : upon which she was found guilty, and condemned to be burnt to ashes : as likewise, the tryals and condemnation of two notorious high-way-men : of a woman for murdering her bastard-childe : and of a man for another murder : together with a fall relation of all other remarkable passages there, and the number how many are to die, with their several facts : how many burnt in the hand, and how many to be transported, and to be whipped. england and wales. assizes (southwark) p. printed for d.m., london : . reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (murder) -- england. great britain -- history -- charles ii, - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the proceedings at the assizes in sovthwark , for the county of surry . begun on thursday the th , of march , and not ended till tuesday the of the same month , . being an account of the tryal of the woman for murdering her husband ; with the exact proof that came in against her , and her confession and pleas at the bar : upon which she was found guilty , and condemned to be burnt to ashes . as likewise , the tryals and condemnation of two notorious high-way-men . of a woman for murdering her bastard-childe : and of a man for another murder . together , with a full relation of all other remarkable passages there . and the number how many are to die , with their several facts ; how many burnt in the hand , and how many to be transported , and to be whipt . with allowance . ro. l'estrange . london : printed for d. m. . the proceedings at the assizes in sovthwark , &c. the most sad and remarkable tryal at this assizes , was that of a woman dwelling lately in fishmongers-ally in the burrough of southwark ; she was indicted , that not having the fear of god before her eyes , but moved by the instigation of the devil , on the day of september last , wickedly , traiterously , and of her malice fore-thought , with a pair of sizzars which she held in her right hand , she had killed and murdered her husband , giving unto him one mortal wound on the left side of his breast near the left pap , of the breadth of half an inch , and the depth of inches , of which he immediately died . the case appeared to be thus , as well by the evidence , as by her own voluntary confession at the bar. this woman and her husband had been together at the ale house ; and she now alleadged , that though she drank not above a pint and a half , yet she was light-headed . some dispute arose between them there concerning a silver seal , and a grater , and some other toys which he had taken from her , and refusing to return them , said , he would give them to another woman : when they came home she demanded them again , and said she would go look above stairs where he had hid them ; hereupon a quarrel begun , and he was seen by some of the opposite neighbours to strike her with a fire shovel , insomuch that she pretends he knockt her down , and that she lay in a trance : from which being recovered , she got up these sizzars intending to go to work with them according to her custome at the ally-gate till his fury were over ; but he catching up a frying-pan to beat her again , she held them forth to keep him off , who was so violent , that , having his bosom all open to the skin , he run upon them , and thereby got this mischief ; which she no sooner perceived , but she endeavoured when she saw him fall to give him some syrrups ; but finding him ready to die , was frighted , and went forth , leaving him lying on the stairs , going into white-chappel , where she declared that she had unfortunately killed her husband : she now protested very passionately her innocence as to any intention of murdering him ; but that he died by her means , freely acknowledged . 't was proved by several that she had often threatned to do his business ; and one swore that she once heard the prisoner say she would poison him . a young maiden stept into the house after the mischief done , and seeing the man lie on the stairs , asked the now prisoner if her husband were in a swoon ; to which she replied surlily , bidding her meddle with her own business , and forthwith went out ; but the girl telling neighbours , some of them entred , and found the man just a dying , being onely seen to stir one hand . whereupon soon after the prisoner was taken , and confessed as you have heard . upon consideration of all circumstances the jury found her guilty of the petty-treason ; for which she received sentence to be burnt to death . the next we shall mention , were two highway-men : one of them disgracing his education and profession with those wicked and abominable practises of villany and mischief . for on the th of may last , he and one of his companions being off of putney , set upon a gentleman , threatning his life if he did not speedily deliver : whereupon he deliver'd them twenty pound ; besides which they took from him a rapier , but did not search him , for he had more money about him which he saved : however , they cut his horse bridle and turn'd him loose . as soon as they were gone , he got to a house and rais'd the hue and cry ; whereupon they were taken before they got to london , for their horses were poor sorry hackneys : so that at last they be took themselves to their own heels , and fired pistols without execution . one of them , to prevent their being pursued , flung down the money ; but the country being up , took them notwithstanding : and upon full evidence , being now convicted , they received sentence of death . there was a person arraigned upon two several indictments for stealing a bay guelding from one man , and a chesnut mare from another . he had lately been married , and went down into the country pretending to fetch money ; but instead thereof , brought up these horses , and got his brother-in-law to vouch them in smithfield : but they being soon after found , and he discovered , he offered to pay eighteen pounds for them ; a new trick of a jocky to steal horses first , and enquire the prices afterwards . upon such pregnant evidence he was found guilty and received sentence . a fellow was found guilty of felony , for stealing five pounds in money , two shirts , and other things , from one that had lately been his master . he was soon taken , and part of the things with him , and now was burnt in the hand . on munday there were four tried upon indictments for murder ; but none found guilty . one , a wench for killing her bastard-childe at horslydown ; it was proved she had been delivered , and was heard to groan and make a great noise in the night ; but her mistriss thinking it common sickness , took no notice of it . upon the whole she was acquitted . so was a waterman for killing a young man of the same trade , who quarrelling with him about money for a fare , he did strike him one box on the ear , and gave him one kick , but as 't was prov'd not violently ; yet so fatally , that the fellow sickned and shortly after died . however , no murderous intention appearing , he was discharg'd . the third was a bayliffs follower , who going to arrest one , and a scuffle arising , to secure their prisoner they used some blows , and with much ado carried him to jayl , where soon after he died ; upon which he was prosecuted , but found not guilty . the fourth was a man for the supposed murder of a childe of nine years of age , his wives son : she having been abroad , at her reutrn found the childe ill and bloody , but it did not complain the father had hurt it , nor would tell bow it came ; but growing worse and worse , died the next morning . the grandfather and grandmother willing to know how it came by its end , bound the father over ; but no witness appearing of his striking or injuring the lad , there was no colour for the indictment . a young wench was found guilty for robbing her master twice ; once of s. and afterwards getting his breeches and her mistriss's petticoat off their bed , and taking the keys of his counting-house , carried away some small parcel of money , a diamond ring , a plain ring , a piece of gold given by his majesty for curing the evil , and other things of value ; but was soon taken , and now convicted . a fellow having snatcht away a sword from one in southwark-fair , partly in jest and more in earnest , was now found guilty of stealing it : and since he was so fond of a sword , may have occasion shortly to use one , being ordered for transportation . several other petty tryals we omit . there were in all four condemned to die ; that is , two highway-men and one horse-stealer to be hang'd , and one woman to be burnt ; seven burnt in the hand , seven to be transported , and five to be whipt . finis . a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, april , , & , setting forth the facts and tryals of several prisoners for felonies, burglaries, treason, and other crimes : with a particular account of the tryal and condemnation of two women for high treason, clipping the kings coyn, who are sentenced to be burnt to ashes : and likewise the tryals and condemnation of one for robbing on the highway, and two others for horse-stealing and other felonies : and an exact relation of all other remarkable proceedings : with the number of those that are condemn'd, burn'd in the hand, and to be whipt. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, april , , & , setting forth the facts and tryals of several prisoners for felonies, burglaries, treason, and other crimes : with a particular account of the tryal and condemnation of two women for high treason, clipping the kings coyn, who are sentenced to be burnt to ashes : and likewise the tryals and condemnation of one for robbing on the highway, and two others for horse-stealing and other felonies : and an exact relation of all other remarkable proceedings : with the number of those that are condemn'd, burn'd in the hand, and to be whipt. england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). p. printed for d.m., london : . imperfect: print show-through. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england. crime -- england. criminals -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , april , , & . . setting forth the facts and tryals of several prisoners for felonies , burglaries , treason , and other crimes . with a particular account of the tryal and condemnation of two women for high treason , clipping the kings coyn , who are sentenced to be burnt to ashes . and likewise the tryals and condemnation of one for robbing on the highway ; and two others for horse-stealing and other felonies . and an exact relation of all other remarkable proceedings . with the number of those that are condemn'd , burn'd in the hand , and to be whipt . with allowance . ro. l'estrange . london : printed for d. m. . the proceedings at the sessions holden for london and middlesex . though the sessions for the city of london and county of middlesex be held almost every month , yet so incorrigibly wicked are people , that no warning of the untimely ends or other punishments of their fellow criminals , can deter them from the same evil courses : so that there scarce ever fails to be a great number to receive justice for their demerits at every jayl-delivery . thus was it now at this time : of the most notorious i shall here give you a particular account . two women were severally tryed for and co●victed of felony , for shopli●ting ( as they c 〈…〉 ) a practice become so frequent , that a tradesm●n scarce dares trust his wares to customers v●ew , they have so often been robb'd under pretence of buying . these two has ( 't is said ) long followed the same trade , and are no strangers to the formality of holding up their hands ; but 't is thought they will scarce ev●r have liberty to practise their villany abroad again . two other several persons were indicted for stealing an horse ; but besides that one was a person of competent estate and credit , he made it appear that he bought him , though at a place where it seems there was no toll-book kept , so that the property was not altered ; yet it not appearing he had reason to think the nag was unlawfully come by , they were both acquitted . a gentleman took a tryal for killing a man , but there was no sufficient evidence that the prisoner was the party ; onely one young woman pr●ssed somewhat largely divers circumstances , to whose credit there were on the other side several witnesses examined : so that on the whole matter the prisoner was brought in not guilty . a person was tried on two indictments for several felonies , one for stealing a sorrel guelding valued in the bill at four pound , on the twelfth of january last ; the other for stealing a hundred fifty six yards of say , valued at twelve pound . the facts were done at the town of bury in suffolk , the guelding taken out of the stable in the night , but the stuff was stolen some time before , and the prisoner partly charged with it , his house being searcht , but nothing found , at last a naughty woman that he kept company with , b●ing apprehended and sent to jayl , he fearing she might discover him , resolv'd to run the country , anct to that purpose stole the guelding ; which at the ball in leaden hall street he truck● away for fourteen shillings boot : but at last the horse being found by the hue and cry , the party was likewise taken , and part of the say found upon the hostler of the house . he having sold a whole piece in the inne , pretending he had been robb'd as he came up , and wanted money : so that having no colour of excuse , he was convicted and condemned . the next was a very considerable tryal , three women being tried for high treason , for clipping eight half-crowns of king charles the first 's coin , and ten other half-crowns of king jam●s's , and taking six pence off of each of them . notice was first taken of them thus : a shoop-keeper without temple-bar hath oft observed a little girl come to him to change five or ten shi●lings of small money into greater , as six pences or shillings into half-crowns ; and that she would not take any mill-money , nor money that was clipt : whereupon he watching the girl , in fleet-street saw one of the prisoners ( her mother ) waiting for her , who sent her into several shops in fleet-street on the like errand . at last he dogg'd them into an house near stonecutters-street in sho lane , very suspitiously scituate ; so that declaring the same , and going with an officer to search , they took one woman , and in her hand● a basket , in which , amongst several papers , there was one that had clippings and filings . the other woman was abroad ; but breaking open her door , they observ'd filings on the floor , found clippings under a bed , a file and a pair of sheers hid under the board , to which part of the new-cut silver still stuck , a melting-pot not quite cold , &c. the chi●de being examined whither she used to carry her h●lf crowns , said , to such an one , naming the third woman now indicted , living in golden-lane ; but nothing being found in her house , she was acquitted . of the other two , one pleaded ignorance ; the other , that she had these tools of one benjamin smith , executed two or three sessions ago ; but that appearing frivolous , and the crime evident , as pieces of silver , and their touch stones , and old gloves to smoothen and al●ay the colour , &c. being produced in court , they were both found guilty of the felony and treason , and received sentence to be burnt . a poor mechanick fellow was likewise tried for clipping : going to w●rk early , he found a parcel of clippings in longlane , and carried them to a goldsmith , to know what they were : who saying it was course silver , bought it of him for five shillings six pence , but gave him a naughty half crown ; which coming several times to have changed , they at last apprehended him ; but no other proof coming against him , he was acquitted . a young man was convicted of a misdemeanour , for offering to put off a naughty guinny at a tavern in cornhil , knowing it to be such ▪ he al●eadged , he took it for good of a watch ; maker , and it appeared he had it of him ; but when he got it , which was under a pretence of borrowing it , he said it was n●●ght , and that he would keep it to have it 〈◊〉 , &c so that 't is thought his design● was to de●raud the watch-maker first , and the vi●tner afterwards , if not thus discovered . h●re was a lamentable spectacle , almost a whole family confederates in villany , being two brothers ▪ and their sister , and one that pretended to be her husband : there were several indictments against them respectively , the husband being found guilty of stealing a brown mare in kent , and upon another indictment for stealing four flitches of bacon and a fowling-piece , which were taken with them ; but the woman alleadging her self his wife , and consequently what she did , was done by his coertion , could not be found guilty , though she were taken upon the mare . the three men were likewise found guilty of another felony discovered in golden lane , for stealing the goods of a person unknown ; they were onely the rubbish of some burglary , the best goods being disposed of before they were seized ; so that it was brought in under the value of ten pence . another indictment against the the same w●man by four or five names , for stealing a black guelding valued at eight pounds , and selling him in st. gileses ; but it appearing that her pretended husband brought him to t●e inne , she was for the reason before mentioned acquitted ; hereby obtaining two happy certificates of her marriage . 〈…〉 brief , 't was declared by the court that this very gang had lately stolen above forty horses : nor did they deal altogether in horsefl●sh , but lov'd mutten too , an indictment being against them for stealing nine fat sheep ; for which being taken , they lately made an escape out of the gatehouse ; and the prosecutor not knowing they were retaken , was not ready with his witnesses . a fellow , with one arm , was convicted for robbery on the high-way ; he and or more of his gang lurking on foot about bunhil fields , knockt down an honest man , and rifled him of several small things , for money he had none : his crying out brought the constable and watch , who seized the prisoner on the place , the rest made their escape . he had been concern'd on such foot-pad rogueries before , and now received sentence of death . there were in all nine persons condemn'd to die , seven men , viz. two for horse-stealing and other felonies , one for burglary and stealing goods to the value of seventy pounds , and three others for several felonies ; having been all burnt in the hand before ; and one for the foot-pad , or robbing on the highway . and as for the two women , they received sentence to be drawn on a hurdle to the place of execution , and there their bodies to be burnt . four men and three women burnt in the hand , and five ordered to be whip . finis . a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, december , , , & , containing the tryal of the woman for coyning, who is condemn'd to be burnt : with an account of the highway-men : also the tryals and condemnation of several other notorious malefactors : and also the number of those that are condemn'd, burn'd in the hand, transported, and to be whipt. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t b_variant estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, december , , , & , containing the tryal of the woman for coyning, who is condemn'd to be burnt : with an account of the highway-men : also the tryals and condemnation of several other notorious malefactors : and also the number of those that are condemn'd, burn'd in the hand, transported, and to be whipt. england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). p. printed for d.m., london : . imperfect: pages stained and with print show-through. reproduction of original in the huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england. crime -- england. criminals -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true narrative of the proceedings at the seffions-house in the old-bayly , december , , , & . . containing the tryal of the woman for coyning , who is condemn'd to be burnt . with an account of the highway-men . also the tryals and condemnation of several other notorious malefactors . and also the number of those that are condemn'd , burn'd in the hand , transported , and to be whipt . with permission . ro. l'estrange . london : printed for d. m. . the proceedings at the sessions for london and middlesex . amongst such a multitude of various crimes , the story of every petty felony with its trivial circumstances here examined or punisht , cannot reasonably be expected to be published ; such an undertaking would be no less tedious than unuseful , and in some cases unfit : but as to whatever was transacted considerable or remarkable , this sheet dares promise you a brief , yet sufficient , account both of the manner of fact , and what became of the prisoner charged therewith . the first relation we are to make , is of a very sad and unhappy accident . a gentleman was indicted ( according to form in such cases ) for murder ; but upon evidence the business appeared onely thus : a burglary about four or five a clock in the morning being made , or at least attempted , and discovered by the noise , and the people crying out thieves , the person now tried , generously came forth of his bed with his sword in his hand to help his friends and seize the robbers , but casually meets three or four journymen - shoomakers , who working hard by and taking the alarm , came likewise running out with the like honest intentions : but in that hurry and passion , mutually mistaking each other for some of the malefactors ( who in truth were all escaped before ) and the gentleman demanding of the person deceased who they were ? and he , under that misapprehension , roughly replying , you shall know by our actions , or to that effect , and withal striking him ; the now prisoner concluding him one of the thieves , unfortunately gave him a wound which occasion'd his death : so that it appearing to be done partly by misadventure and partly se defendendo , he was wholly acquitted . another person was arraigned for a murder committed about three years ago neer islington , and for which his own brother , being above a twelvemonth since convicted of manslaughter , and not able to read when he had pray'd the benefit of clergy , was executed : but though this man was in his company when the fact was done , and some circumstances seemed to lie heavie upon him , yet for want of cleer evidence he was discharged : as likewise were two more concerning killing of a man neer holborn , it not appearing that he received any blow or wound from either of them that might occasion his death . but one for killing his comrade by tower hill , upon a quarrel arising between them about a reckoning at an ale-house , was found guilty of manslaughter . a poor charewoman intrusted sometimes to sweep the hall of one of the city-companies , and scour their pewter when need required , made bold at several times to exchange a considerable quantity thereof for silver . she very penitently confest the fact , and had endeavour'd restitution as far as she could , begging mercy of the honourable bench , which was afforded her . another coming with three or four other confederates to an ale-house , some of them got up stairs , and breaking open a chest of drawers took away twenty guinnies , five rings , and several other things of value . the prisoner being proved to be one of the company , and that she paid the reckoning , was convicted . a notorious criminal after many fair warnings and not a few convictions , having some time since obtained the mercy of transportation , finding , it seems , the place not to agree so well with her as that of newgate , whereunto she had been so oft accustomed , or at least that the customes of the country were not fit for her trade , sugars and tobacco not being so conveniently stolen , harbour'd , or put off there , as watches , rings , plate , silks , &c. are here ; thought fit to come back and follow her old profession of shoplifting , being lately taken with a scarf , which she alleadged stuck to her clothes when she went out of a shop at the exchange , though the jury were of opinion that she stole it : which , together with her too early return , 't is verily believed , may cause her to take a surer transportation by a turn at tyburn ; which , no doubt , will be much lamented as an untimely end , because it happen'd no sooner . the next considerable , was an indictment against a man and a woman , pretended to be intermarried , for coyning . the woman had been an old offender , and now no less than nine or ten indictments found against her for felonies ; being so frugal and industrious , as first to steal plate , and afterwards make money of it , to save the trouble of exchange and the charge of coynage . yet as cunning as she was , she became accessary to her own discovery : for upon promise of secrecy , she tells an acquaintance that she knew some persons that had store of cash , and were resolved to set up a private mint ; and she would order it so , that he should surprize them at work , and then get a good sum for concealment , wherein she was to go snips . he seemingly consents , but honestly imparts it to a gentleman to whose care and office it belongs to inspect such offences . several times she came to him , and sometimes brought him new-coyn'd counterfeit-money to put off ; but still on pretences the business was not ripe , and perhaps then somewhat distrusting him , delay'd the discovery ; so that at last having learnt that she had taken a house about hounslow for carrying on the intrigue , he with a warrant and officers went down , and found her blowing the fire in a room where there were several sorts of metals , divers pieces of stolen plate , a coyning-press , and some other tools , now produced in court ; but her husband was in another room in bed . she did not much deny the fact , but wholly clear'd him ( to whom not above a fortnight before she had been married ) protesting that he was not privie to any of her actions of that kinde . the court asking the man upon his tryal whether he were content to part with his wife , he , like a kind husband , replied , i am very willing the law should have its course : better one than both . so that , he was acquitted , and she convicted of high treason , and by law to be burnt . the court had much trouble given them by a fellow and his wife , the man being indicted for two facts , stealing of a mare , and of linnen ; the woman for a smock : both refused to plead , insomuch that the terrible sentence of pein fort & dure ( or pressing ) past , but not being recorded , and they on view of the press , and mr. ordinary's pressing and pious exhortations not at once to cast away their lives and their souls , submitting themselves , were admitted to tryal , and for want of exact proof acquitted on both indictments . another remarkable thing was of a lusty young wench , who coming to an office of intelligence to inquire for a service , was by them directed to one at westminster , and entertain'd , pretending her self to be a quaker , on which account her master and mistriss the more freely trusted her ; but the second day in the evening she robb'd them of several pieces of plate , clothes , &c. above the value of fifty pound , and putting her self in mans apparel went off with the prize , but was soon pursued and ( notwithstanding her disguise ) discovered , and in her masculine habit carried to newgate ; but now appeared in a female dress . before the justice she accused one for taking the goods by her invitation or consent , and afterwards denied that he knew any thing of it , and charged another ; but still acknowledging 't was done by her privity , was found guilty of the felony . several persons were found guilty of felony and burnt in the hand for stealing of silver tankards , &c. out of victualing-houses : wherein there was little observable besides this , that people after so many examples should be so far infatuated as to run the hazzard of forfeiting their licenses , and losing their plate , by exposing it in common use , meerly to gratifie their pride , or a worse humour of covetousness , which abateth the quantity of the liquor , proportionably to the tempting quality of the cups they vend it in . a woman in the strand coming to buy one pair of silk stockings which she paid for , fearing ( it seems ) she might have a hard bargain , had been so kind to her self as to take about seven and twenty pair more privately into her apron without the useless ceremony of asking the price ; but being discovered by a by-stander , was forc'd to make legal satisfaction , and take an acquittance for the same in her hand ; to which squire ketch vouchsafed to be a witness , and subscribe his mark. a lusty fellow arraign'd for stealing a horse , absolutely denied any knowledge of the business ; but being suddenly ask'd what boot he had when he swapt him away , affirm'd , but five and thirty shillings ▪ which amounting to a plain confession , he was brought in guilty . another for stealing of goods ▪ pleaded the general pardon he had lately obtained for another robbery ; but the words thereof being read , and not extending to this case , he was likewise convicted , it serving rather to aggravate than extenuate his fact. after this a woman was tried for the most unnatural crime of murdering her bastard-child , and a man for the prodigious trick of killing almost threescore sheep onely to steal fourscore pounds of tallow ; a piece of villany never till within these few years practised : he pleaded guilty , and was burnt in the hand . there were three bargemen arraigned for murder , drowning a boy in a fisher-boat on the thames . it was endeavoured to be proved that they did it wilfully ; but they alleadged , that by the violent current of the tide they could not help it . the jury sound the matter of fact specially , and left it to judges to determine the crime in point of law. several persons in custody for robberies on the high-ways were not tried , there being no prosecution in middlesex against them ; but are to be sent to the respective counties where they did the facts , to take their tryals at the assizes . there were in all five persons condemned to die : two men and two women ( old notorious and incorrigible thieves ) to be hang'd , and one woman to be burnt : four set by , before judgement , for transportation ; fourteen burnt in the hand ; and six for petty larceny to be whipt . finis . the tryal of sr thomas gascoyne bar. for high-treason in conspiring the death of the king, the subversion of the government, and alteration of religion, on wednesday the th of february : at the bar of the kings bench, before the right honourable sir william scroggs, lord chief justice, and the rest of the judges of that court. gascoigne, thomas, sir, ?- , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of sr thomas gascoyne bar. for high-treason in conspiring the death of the king, the subversion of the government, and alteration of religion, on wednesday the th of february : at the bar of the kings bench, before the right honourable sir william scroggs, lord chief justice, and the rest of the judges of that court. gascoigne, thomas, sir, ?- , defendant. [ ], p. printed for tho. bassett, and sam. heyrick ..., london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng gascoigne, thomas, -- sir, ?- , -- defendant. england and wales. -- court of king's bench. trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of s r tho. gascoyne bar. for high-treason , in conspiring the death of the king , the subversion of the government , and alteration of religion , on wednesday the th of february . at the bar of the kings bench , before the right honourable sir william scroggs lord chief justice , and the rest of the judges of that court. london : printed for tho. basset , and sam. heyrick ; at the george in fleet-street , and at greys-inne-gate in holborn . . the tryal of sir tho. gascoyne bar. on saturday the th of jan. , sir tho. gascoyne was brought to the bar of the court of kings-bench , to be arraigned for high-treason ; which was done accordingly in this manner . clerk of crown . sir thomas gascoyne , hold up thy hand . sir tho. gasc . i cannot hear . clerk. he saies he cannot hear . l. c. j. then somebody must repeat it that stands by him . mr. recorder . do you hear what i say to you ? sir tho. gasc . no , i cannot hear , i am very deaf . then the clerk of the crown went down close to the bar , and went on thus : clerk of crown . sir thomas gascoyne , hold up thy hand . [ which he did . ] thou standest indicted by the name of sir thomas gascoyne , late of the parish of elmett in the west-riding in the county of york , bar. for that thou , as a false traytor against our most illustrious and excellent prince king charles the second , thy natural lord , not having the fear of god in thy heart , nor weighing the duty of thy allegiance , but by the instigation of the devil moved and seduced , the cordial love , and true , due , and natural obedience which true and faithful subjects of our said lord the king should bear to him , and of right are bound to bear , wholly withdrawing , devising , and with all thy power intending to disturb the peace and common tranquillity of this realm , and to bring and put our said lord the king to death and final destruction ; and the true worship of god in this kingdom , by law established and used , to alter unto the superstition of the church of rome , and to move and stir up war against our said lord the king in this realm , and to subvert the government of this kingdom ; the thirtieth day of may , in the one and thirtieth year of our said lord the king's reign , at the parish of barwick in elmett in the said county of york , in the west-riding of the same county , with divers other false traytors unknown , didst trayterously compass , imagine , and intend the death and final destruction of our said lord the king ; and to change and alter , and wholly to subvert the ancient government of this realm ; and to depose , and wholly to deprive the king of the crown and government of this kingdom ; and to root out the true protestant religion . and to fulfil and accomplish the same most wicked treasons and trayterous imaginations and purposes , the said gascoyne , and other false traytors unknown , on the said thirtieth day of may , in the one and thirtieth year aforesaid , with force and arms , &c. at the parish of barwick aforesaid , advisedly , divelishly , maliciously , and trayterously , did assemble , unite , and gather together themselves , and then and there did devilishly , advisedly , maliciously , craftily , and trayterously consult and agree to bring our said lord the king to death and final destruction , and to depose and deprive him of his crown and government , and to introduce and establish the religion of the roman church in this realm . and the sooner to fulfil and accomplish the same most wicked treasons and trayterous imaginations and purposes , thou the said gascoyne , and other unknown traytors , then and there , advisedly , maliciously , and trayterously , did further consult and agree to contribute , pay , and expend divers large sums of money to divers of the king's subjects and other persons unknown , to procure those persons unknown trayterously to kill our said lord the king , and to introduce the roman religion into this realm . and that thou the said gascoyne afterwards ( to wit ) on the said thirtieth day of may , in the one and thirtieth year aforesaid , at the parish aforesaid , didst falsely , advisedly , craftily , maliciously , and trayterously , sollicit one robert bolron to kill our said lord the king ; and then and there , with an intent sooner trayterously to encourage the said bolron to undertake the killing and murthering of our said lord the king , offeredst therefore to give and pay the said bolron a thousand pounds of lawful money of england : against the duty of thy allegiance , against the peace of our said lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in such case made and provided . how sayest thou , sir thomas gascoyne , art thou guilty of this high-treason whereof thou standest indicted , and hast been now arraigned , or not guilty ? sir tho. gascoigne . gloria patri , filio & spiritui sancto , i am no guiltie . clerk of crown . not guiltie , you must say . sir t. gasc . not guiltie ; nor any of my familie were ever guiltie of any such thing . i hope i shall be tryed fairly . clerk of crown . how will you be tryed ? sir t. gasc . by god and my countrie . clerk of crown . god send thee a good deliverance . sir t. gasc . i desire , that in order to my trial , i may have a jurie of gentlemen , of persons of my own qualitie , and of my own countrie , that may be able to know something how i have lived hitherto ; for i am above fourscore and five years old . l. c. j. tell him he shall have a good jurie of gentlemen of his own countrie . sir t. gasc . and besides , my lord , i desire to know when i shall be tried . mr. att. gen. some time about the latter end of the term , as soon as i can get a jurie up . sir t. gasc . i do not know whether i can produce all my witnesses at that time , if there be not a longer time allowed me ; for i have a great many witnesses to fetch up . these witnesses must be all here , or i can't make my defence ; and i know not how they shall be got hither in so little time . l. c. j. tell him he may have what witnesses he pleases , and the aid of this court to fetch them . mr. justice dolben . name them who they are . mrs. ravenscroft . my lord , some of his witnesses are at paris . mr. justice dolben . why , he will not be tried yet this fortnight . mrs. ravenscroft . they will not have time to come over between this and that . mr. justice dolben . mistriss , he had reason to believe that he should be tried some time this term ; for so the council ordered it : and therefore he should have got his witnesses ready . mrs. ravenscroft . my lord , he did not know where they were till a week ago . mr. j●…stice dolben . look you , mr. attorney , here is a ladie that is , i suppose , fome relation to this gentleman . mrs. ravenscroft . he is my grandfather , my lord. mr. justice dolben . she saies a fortnights time will be too little to get his witnesses together for his defence , because some of the witnesses are beyond sea at paris , she saies . mr. att. gen. my lord , i am willing he should have as long time as the term will allow of : but sure that is long enough to get any witnesses from paris . l. c. j. what say you to sir miles stapleton ? i see he is joyned in the indictment . mr. att. gen. my lord , he is not come up yet . l. c. j. will you trie the one without the other ? mr. att. gen. yes my lord , if we cannot have both . he is in the hands of the messenger at york . we have writ down to know the state of his health to some of the justices of the peace , and the messenger returns word , he is sick and can't come . i have sent down an habeas corpus to the messenger to bring him up ; let him return a languidus at his peril : that 's all i can do . l. chief just. well , what day do you appoint for sir thomas his trial ? mr. att. gen. tuesday come fortnight ▪ i think will be a good day . mr. justice dolben . by that time , mistris , you may get your witnesses ; you must send a messenger on purpose . mrs. ravenscroft . but if the wind should be contrarie , my lord , and they cannot be brought over ? mr. justice dolben . 't is not an usual thing to have the winds long contrarie between dover and cali●…e . mrs. ravenscroft . but if it do fall out that he wants a material witness at his trial , i hope his life will be considered . mr. justice dolben . he should have had them readie ; he had warning before . mrs. ravenscroft . we cou'd do it no sooner , because we knew not where they were . mr. justice dolben . he saith , he hath a great many witnesses ; are they all at paris ? mr. att. gen. there are a great many in town we know alreadie . mrs. ravenscroft . if we had known when exactly , we might have been more readie perhaps . mr. att. gen. but we could give no notice sooner ; it is early in the term now . but there is time enough to get any witnesses . l. c. j. aye , you may send to paris a great many times between this and that . mrs. ravenscroft . what if the letter miscarry , my lord ? mr. justice dolben . why , you must send a special messenger . mr. att. gen. my lord , if you please , let it be wednesday fortnight , the last day but one of the term ; because i would give him as much time to provide himself as i can . mr. justice pemberton . well , mistriss , you must send a special messenger ; we must not consult your conveniencie ; do it as well as you can , you have time enough . mr. justice dolben . your grandfather is a man of an estate , he may very well in this case be at the charge of a special messenger . mrs. ravenscroft . but what if the winds be contrarie , must my grandfather's life be lost ? l. chief justice . we must give you that favour we can by law , and you must be content . tell us at the trial what you have done . then the lieutenant of the tower was ordered to take the prisoner back , and by rule to bring him to the bar on wednesday the th of february . on which day the prisoner being brought up , the tryal proceeded thus : mr. att. gen. my lord , here is an extraordinarie matter : sir thomas gascoigne had a rule for some friend to assist him , by reason of the defect of his hearing ; and now there are three of them that are got among the jurie . l. c. j. no , no , they must come in of the inside of the bar. mr. att. gen. pray let him tell which he will make choice of ; for he is by the rule to have but one . mr. justice pem●…on . tell him there can but one stay . counsel . he saies one of them came out of the countrie , and knows the persons that are the witnesses , which he does not himself . l. chief justice . well , let the other come in , let him have them both . counsel . he saies , the principal man he depended upon , is clapt up . l. c. j. well , we can't help that . then way was made for the jury to come up to the stand , and proclamation for information was made in usual manner . clerk of court. sir thomas gascoign , hold up thy hand . sir t. gasc . i cannot hear what is said . clerk of crown . those good men which were lately called , and have appeared , are to pass , &c. l. c. j. tell him the effect of it . if he will make any challenges to the jurie , he must speak before they are sworn . hobart . if you will challenge any of the jury , you must speak to them before they are sworn . sir t. gasc . i cannot hear who is called . l. c. j. tell him who is called . clerk of crown . sir thomas hodson . hobart . this is sir thomas hodson , sir. sir t. gasc . what must i say ? aye , or no ? hobart . do you except against him ? sir t. gasc . no. who was sworn . clerk of crown . richard beaumont esq hobart . do you challenge him , sir ? sir t. gasc . no. mr. att. gen. pray , my lord , here is sir john cutler in the pannel , one that lives in town , and is the fore-man of the jurie ; i desire the court to take notice of his not appearing in particular . clerk of crown . john gibson esq the priso●…er challenged him . mr. serj. maynard . i perceive they skip a great many ; pray call them as they are in the pannel , and record their non-appearance in court. which was done accordingly ; but their names that did not appear , for brevitie sake , are omitted . clerk of crown . nicholas maleverer esq mr. att. gen. we challenge him for the king. i perceive the best gentlemen stay at home . mr. serj. maynard . yes , 't is so small a business . clerk of crown . beckwith esq ( challenged by the prisoner . stephen wilks esq ( sworn . matthew prince esq ( challenged by the prisoner . thomas graver esq ( challenged by him . jervas rockley esq ( sworn . william walker esq ( challenged by the prisoner . john di●…mocke esq ( challenged by him . samu●…l jenkinson esq ( challenged by him . robert leeke esq ( sworn . william batt esq ( sworn . richard burton esq ( challenged by the prisoner . robert auby esq ( challenged by him . charles best esq ( sworn . robert long esq ( challenged by the prisoner . john crosse esq ( sworn . barton allett esq ( sworn . william milner esq ( sworn . john oxley esq ( sworn . francis oxley esq ( sworn . clerk of the crown . cryer , count these . sir thomas hodsen , jur. charles best , richard beaumont , john crosse , stephen wilks , barton allett , jervas rockley , william milner , robert leeke , john oxley , and william batt , francis oxley . cryer . twelve , good men and true , stand together and hear your evidence . clerk of the crown . sir thomas gascoigne , hold up thy hand . gentlemen , you of the jurie that are sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his charge . you shall understand , that he stands indicted by the name of sir thomas gascoigne late of the parish of elmet , &c. prout in the indictment mutatis mutandis . upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto pleaded not guiltie ; and for his trial hath put himself upon his countrie ; which countrie you are , &c ▪ then proclamation for evidence was made , and dormer esq of counsel for the king in this cause , opened the indictment , thus : mr. dormer . may it please your lordship , and you , gentlemen of the jurie , sir thomas gascoigne baronet , the prisoner at the bar , stands indicted for high treason , in conspiring the murder of his majestie , the subverting of the government , and the introducing the romish religion . and for the effecting these purposes , the indictment sets forth , that the said sir thomas gaseoigne , sir miles stapleton , and other false traytors , the th of may last , at the parish of elmet in the west-riding of the countie of york , did assemble together , and there resolved to put their treasons in execution . and the better to accomplish their said treasons and traiterous imaginations , they did agree to contribute several large sums of money to several of his majesties subjects unknown , to introduce poperie , to kill the king , and subvert the government : and that sir thomas gascoigne did sollicit robert bolrond to kill the king , and for that service he was to pay him l. to this he hath pleaded not guiltie : if the kings evidence prove the charge of the indictment , your dutie is to finde him guiltie . mr. serj. maynard . may it please your lordship , and you , gentlemen of the jurie , you have heard the indictment , and it hath been opened to you . there can be no greater crime charged upon any , than that this gentleman is accused of . the designe hath been to kill and murder the king , to change the religion and the government ; and to effect this , they make assemblies , they offer money : and this , my lord , we shall prove . 't is no new crime , divers have suffered for the like alreadie ; and we shall not need to make any aggravations , for indeed it cannot be aggravated more than the plain matter it self is . we shall call our witnesses , and prove it directly upon him , even by two witnesses ; and we shall prove , that he held intelligence with one preswicke a priest ; letters between him and that person are found in his custodie , and we shall produce one of them wherein it does appear , that there was intelligence between them , and consultations had about the oath of allegiance ; and that praud did write to him , that it was a damnable oath condemned by the sorbonnists : and upon that point hangs the changing of religion ; for the oath of allegiance is the great touchstone to discover mens sinceritie by , and the great bond to tie them to the government , and to the protestant religion . and we shall ●…ikewise prove another passage in a letter indorsed with the prisoner's own hand , wherein there is an expression to this purpose : that if england be converted , ( the priest writes this to him ) then how a sum of ninety pound was to be disposed : which was , as you shall hear , and we shall prove , in a nunnery . if england be converted , that clearly shews what was their intention , not onely to destroy the king , but the religion and the nation ; and so they were conspiring not onely against his majestie , but against god. that an old gentleman that hath lived so long under the peace of this nation , and been so protected by the government , which hath been so indulgent to men of his perswafion , should be guiltie of such a designe , is a lamentable thing to think of ; that he should so offend the law , which hath been so milde in its execution against such men . we shall prove the proffer of the l. and so leave it with you . mr. att. gen. my lord , these two papers we shall use in confirmation of that evidence will be given by two witnesses , who i think will concur in the same thing ; that is , the conspiracie for killing the king , and for the carrying on of the plot. the papers the witnesses will expound to you ; the one is a letter , as mr. serjeant hath opened it to you , to sir thomas gascoigne from a priest , wherein he does discourse about l. a year at maunston , which sir thomas had purchased to settle upon a nunnery cal●…ed dolebank in york-shire ; and therein it is said , you will be well advised to put in a proviso into the former writing ( he meant for the settlement ) that if england be converted , the l. a year sha●… be bestowed at heworth or some other place in yorkshire . your l●…rdship will hear by the witnesses , that there were several 〈◊〉 designed for these nuns to inhabit , as dolebank and other places ; and this letter will concur with their evidence , and they ●…ill pro●… , that this very place that they speak of , was 〈◊〉 for this 〈◊〉 ; and so it appears by the papers taken in sir thoma●… 〈◊〉 custodie . my lord , there is another letter which was 〈◊〉 , and which i believe may have a great influence in the cause , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sure it may be likely to produce very bad effects , which is that letter from the priest , wherein he decries the oath of allegiance as a damnable thing condemned by the doctrines at sorbonne , and other priests from rome . and this had its effect a little time before ; for it was ab●…ut the time that a matter of thirty or forty were convicted of a praemunire in that countie , for not taking the oath of allegiance , which they used to do before . and there will be some other concurring evidence in this cause , and that is by some papers taken in sir thomas gascoigne's own hand ; they are almanacks , in which many of his own memorials are , several sums of money mentioned to be paid , and returned to priests at london : the witnesses will tell you it was returned for the designe of the plot. there happens to be l. returned to mr. corker , who is now in newgate ; and some other sums to harcourt , who is executed ; and some money is paid to him , though i think not much , about l. and several sums are mentioned , and great sums returned to london by sir thomas gascoigne , in five or six years time , or l. to what purpose i can't tell ; they will give you an account : i think he did live always in york-shire himself , never used to come to town ; and what occasion he might have of returning money , i don't know . we will call the two witnesses viva voce , and then use the other evidence as we shall have occasion to confirm them . call mr. bolrond and mr. mowbray . who were sworn . mr. att. gen. mr. bolrond , tell my lord and the jurie what you know of sir thomas gascoigne . mr. bolron . my lord , and you , gentlemen of the jurie ; i came to live with sir thomas gascoigne in the year , as steward of his cole-works ; and in the year , a little before easter , being in the next room to sir thomas gascoigne , i did hear charles ingleby and sir thomas in discourse together , and sir thomas did say , he was very fearful his estate would be liable to be forfeited to the king — l. c. j. in was this ? mr. bolron . yes , my lord. l. c. j. what time in ? mr. bolron . a little before easter . l. c. j. were you in the room ? mr. bolron . i was in the next room , and the door was not shut ; and sir thomas did say — mr. att. gen. tell the discourse , what it was . mr. bolron . he said he was resolved to make a collusive conveyance of his estate , for fear it should be forfeited to the king. and charles ingleby said , it was best so to do : and then he told sir thomas he wou'd have the defeazance made ready , which he would draw with his own hands ; but he bid him be sure to bring none but protestant witnesses along with him to testifie . and in the year i did go along with sir thomas gascoigne to sir william ingleby's of ripley , and there i did see him receive colourably l. l. c. j. how do you know it was colourably ? mr. bolron . i did hear sir thomas tell charles ingleby so . l. c. j. when was that ? mr. bolron . the th or th of april ; the deed bears the th of april . l. c. j. was charles ingleby there at that time ? mr. bolron . yes , when the deed was sealed ; and he read it in the presence of the witnesses to be dated at that time . mr. justice dolben . what , that thousand pound was the consideration of the deed ? mr. bolron . yes , it was . sir thomas gascoigne did part thereby with all his estate for seven years , he allowing him l. a year for his maintenance , besides the l. at first paid . and this was done with that intent , for fear he should be discovered in the plot for killing the king — l. c. j. how do you know that ? mr. bolron . i did hear sir thomas gascoigne and sir miles stapleton discourse of it , and he said it was for that end . l. c. j. where was that discourse ? mr. bolron . in sir tho. gascoigne's bed-chamber . mr. justice jones . when was that ? mr. bolron . it was in or about the discovery of the plot. l. c. j. but you say you saw the deed sealed . mr. bolron . yes , i was a witness to it . l. c. j. and you saw the money paid ? mr. bolron . i and one matthias higgringill did help to count it . mr. justice jones . were you a protestant at that time ? mr. bolron . yes , my lord , i was at the time of the sealing the deed ; but i did hear the discourse between sir miles stapleton and sir thomas gascoyne upon the discoverie of the plot , when i was a papist . l. c. j. when was the discourse you speak of with sir miles stapleton , do you say ? mr. bolron . it was about the discoverie of the plot. l. c. j. after the money paid ? mr. bolron . yes , after the money paid : and he said to sir miles stapleton , he had done well to make over his estate . l. c. j. that is an abrupt thing for him to say ; how did he begin the discourse ? mr. bolron . they were discoursing about the discoverie of the plot by dr. oates and mr. bedloe ; and then sir thomas gascoyne said to sir miles stapleton , i have done well to make over my estate to sir william ingleby , to prevent a forfeiture . l. c. j. what said sir miles stapleton ? mr. bolron . i do not know what he said , very well . l. c. j. you seemed but now , as if he had said he was in the plot. mr. justice jones . did he own he was in the plot ? mr. bolron . yes . l. c. j. when ? mr. bolron . at several times . mr. serjeant maynard . tell the manner how he was concerned . mr. bolron . my lord , in the year , i did hear sir thomas gascoyne say to one christopher metcalfe , that he was resolved to send l. to the jesuits in london for the carrying on of the designe . l. c. j. what time in ? mr. bolron . the beginning of the year . l. c. j. to whom did he say so ? mr. bolron . to one christopher metcalfe . l. c. j. were you a papist then ? mr. bolron . yes . l. c. j. when came you first to be a papist ? mr. bolron . about whitsontide , . mr. justice jones . you are a protestant now ? mr. bolron . yes , my lord , i am so . l. c. j. when did you turn protestant again ? mr. bolron . i turned protestant upon the discovery of this business . l. c. j. when ? mr. bolron . either the beginning of may , or the latter end of june . l. c. j. to whom did he speak it ? mr. bolron . to christopher metcalf●… , who then lived in his house . l. c. j. what said he ? mr. bolron . he said , he was to send l. to the jesuits in london , for the carrying on of this designe . l. c. j. who was in the room besides ? mr. bolron . none but sir thomas gascoyne and metcalfe . l. c. j. where is that metcalfe ? mr. bolron . he is since dead i think . l. c. j. what discourse had they about the designe ? mr. bolron . they were discoursing about it when i came in ; and i remember he mentioned l. for corker , l. for harcourt , and l. for cornwallis ; and the rest by l. apiece to other persons . mr. att. gen. what name did cornwallis go by besides ? mr. bolron . pracid , my lord. mr. att. gen. that 's the name that is to the letter . mr. justice pemberton . well , what do you know more ? mr. bolron . my lord , sir thomas gascoyne told this christopher metcalfe , that he would return it by l. at a time , to prevent suspition , by the hands of richard phisicke ; and about the beginning of the year , i did hear sir thomas gascoyne say , that he had returned it , and that if it had been a thousand times as much , he would be glad to spend it all in so good a cause . l. c. j. did he say he had returned all the l. ? mr. bolron . yes . l. c. j. did he tell you how it was to be disposed of ? mr. bolron . it was to be disposed among the jesuits for the carrying on of the designe . l. c. j. that was in the general ; but this l. you speak of , was to those three priests . mr. bolron . yes . mr. justice jones . you say he resolved to send l. to the jesuits at london about this designe ; pray what was the designe ? what did they say about the plot at that time ? mr. bolron . my lord , at other times i have heard them say , it was for killing the king. l. c. j. what said metcalfe to all this ? mr. bolron . he did allow of it , and thought it was the best way so to do . i have seen him return several sums by richard phisicke . mr. justice dolben . was metcalfe a papist ? mr. bolron . yes , and he died so , as i have heard . l. c. j. was you in the room when they first began the discourse ? mr. bolron . no , my lord , i came in when they were discoursing . l. c. j. you came in when they were talking , you say ; but they did not stop talking because you came in ? mr. bolron . no , my lord , because i knew of it . i was brought in by one rushton , who was acquainted with the plot , to know of it , and therefore they did not stop when i came in . l. c. j. you say , he said , i will return l. to the jesuits in london : did he say in what time he would send that l. ? mr. bolron . no , but in he said he would do it . l. c. j. and it should be employed for carrying on of the designe ? mr. bolron . yes , those were the words . l. c. j. and in you heard him talk with 〈◊〉 again , and then he said , if it had been a thousand times as much , he would have sent it ? mr. bolron . yes . l. c. j. was no body there but he , sir thomas gascoyne , and you ? mr. bolron . no body else . l. c. j. then go on now with your evidence . mr. bolron . my lord , in the year several gentlemen did meet and assemble together at barnbow-hall in the county o●… ●…ork , sir thomas gascoyne's house ; and their resolution was this : that they would build a nunnery at dolebank , in case that their designe and plot of killing the king should take effect , and the roman catholick religion be established in england ; upon which account the company there present did resolve they would lose their lives and estates to further it . and sir thomas gascoyne did conclude he would give l. a year for ever for the maintenance of this nunnery : upon which , they all agreed , that after his death he should be canonized a saint . l. c. j. who were these gentlemen ? mr. bolron . sir miles stapleton , charles ingleby , esquire gascoyne , my lady tempest , thomas thwing , sir walter vavasor , sir francis hungatt , and robert killinbeck a jesuit , and william rushton a romish priest. mr. justice pemberton . is he dead ? mr. bolron . no , he is fled beyond sea. l. c. j. who else ? mr. bolron . these are the persons i can remember at present . l. c. j. there was a woman there , you say ? mr. bolron . my lady tempest , my lord , and one william rushton , if you had not him before . mr. justice dolben . that was your confessor ? mr. bolron . yes , and engaged me in the plot. mr. justice pemberton . what was your discourse ? pray tell that . mr. bolron . the discourse was upon establishing a nunnery at dolebank , in hopes that the plot of killing the king would take effect ; the intention was to alter the government , and introduce the romish religion . l. c. j. who was it said this ? mr. bolron . it was spoken by sir thomas gascoyne and the rest of the gentlemen . l. c. j. in their discourse ? mr. bolron . yes . l. c. j. did they speak of killing the king ? mr. bolron . yes , my lord , sir francis hungatt said it several times . l. c. j. how ? upon what account ? mr. bolron . they were mutually resolved , and they would talk that they would venture their lives and estates in hopes the plot would take effect ; and accordingly about michaelmas , or near upon as i remember — l. c. j. how long staid they there ? mr. bolron . about six or seven hours . l. c. j. were you with them in the room still ? mr. bolron . my lord , i was sometimes in the room , and sometimes out . what discourse i heard , i tell you ; there was one barloe — l. c. j. what was that barloe ? mr. bolron . i have had two orders of council for the seizing of him , and never could take him ; he is a priest. l. c. j. was he by ? mr. bolron . he went with them to take possession of the nunnery . l. c. j. was he not in the house ? mr. bolron . no , not in the room at that time . l. c. j. was there any servant by in the room , when this discourse was ? mr. bolron . no. l. c. j. well , go on . mr. bolron . accordingly sir tho. gascoyne did erect a nunnery about the year , at dolebank . l. c. j. what , built it ? mr. bolron . he established it . l. c. j. who were the nuns ? mr. bolron . mrs. lashalls was lady abbess , mrs. beckwith and mrs. benningfield , were her assistants , ellen thwing , eliz. butcher , and others , were nuns , according as i heard sir tho. gascoyne say : and when they went by sir tho. gascoyne , when one mary root was taking horse , sir tho. gascoyne said of her , there goes an old maid and a young nun. l. c. j. whither were they going then ? mr. bolron . to take possession of the nunnery . l. c. j. was it a new-built house ? mr. bolron . they called it a nunnery in hopes their plot would take effect . l. c. j. was it an old or new-built house ? mr. bolron . nay , i never saw it . l. c. j. where abouts was this house ? mr. bolron . it was neer ripley . l. c. j. what , was that ripley his house ? mr. bolron . no , his house is at barmbow . l. c. j. who did it belong to ? mr. bolron . they went thither till the business was done , and that was onely till the king was killed , and afterwards they resolved to reside at heworth . l. c. j. how long staid they there ? mr. bolron . they lived in this place neer a year and an half . l. c. j. till the plot was discovered ? mr. bolron . yes . mr. justice jones . how do you know they lived there ? mr. bolron . i have seen several times letters come from their hands . mr. justice jones . how do you know they came from thence ? mr. bolron . the letters were dated from dolebank . l. c. j. did he let them lie open ? mr. bolron . sometimes he did . l. c. j. what was in them ? mr. bolron . i don't know any of the particulars ; there was no great matter in them . l. ch. just. who writ them ? mr. bol : the name that i saw was pracid or from mrs. lashals . mr. attor . gen. they , or some of them . l. ch. just. you do not know whose house it was ? mr. bol. no , my lord , not i. l. ch. just. where is heworth hall ? mr. bol. heworth hall is about half a mile off of york . mr. just. dolben . does not that belong to one mr. dawson ? mr. bol. it did , but it was bought of him . mr. attor . gen. what other place did you hear him mention ? mr. bol. broughton , my lord , but i never knew that any were there . l. ch. just. nor at heworth hall ? mr. bol. yes , my lord , sometimes one and sometimes the other ; some of them came to heworth hall , and some to dolebank , but dolebank was the place they did generally reside at . and then sir thomas did establish ninety pounds a year which was purchased of mr. timothy malevorer and alver alo●…tus enjoyes it . l. ch. just. how much was it ? mr. bol. ninety pounds a year . l. ch. just. where does it ●…e ? mr. bol. it lies at a place called mawson near sir tho. gascoynes house . l. ch. just. did he say he had sealed such a conveyance ? mr. just. dolben . i suppose he bought it of dawson ? mr. bol. he bought it of maleverer . l. ch. just. is maleverer a protestant ? mr. bol. yes , my lord. l. ch. just. where is he ? mr. bol. i can't tell . mr. just. jones . you did not see the conveyance of it your self sealed ? mr. bol. no , i refer to their words for that . mr. just. jones . to what purpose was it bought ? mr. bol. to establish a nunnery . mr. just. pemberton . and they told him he should be canonized for a ●…aint when he died ? mr. bol. yes , my lord. l. ch. just. well go on then . mr. bol. my lord , about march last , to the best of my remembrance , sir thomas gascoyne , and esquire gascoyne being in their chamber together , i was reading a book , called the lives of the saints , and esq gascoyne told sir thomas , that he had been before the justices of the peace , and they had given to him and mr. middleton license to go up to london , which mentioned , that in consideration that there was a suit in law between james nelthorp esquire , and sir thomas gascoyne , therefore it permitted the said thomas gascoyne esq and his man to travel peaceably to london . and i did hear the other copy read of mr. middletons license to travel into the south , and for his occasion into the south parts was pretended to receive some rents there . but i did hear esq gascoyne say to sir thomas , that he was resolved as soon as he came to london , and had done with mr. nelthorp that he would fly into france & so would cheat the justices , for he was resolved not to come back to york-shire again , but he would commit the design in agitation into such hands as would do it , and would not fail , but he would not stay to see execution . l. chief just. you heard him say so ? mr. bol. yes , i did . l. chief just. what said sir thomas ? mr. bol. he commended his sons and mr. middleton's resolutions . l. chief just. what room was it in ? mr. bol. it was in sir thomas own chamber . l. chief just. was there any rooms near it ? mr. bol. none that they could hear in , unless in the chamber within , i don't know whether any one was there or no. l. chief just. could they hear in no room that was near to them ? mr. bol. yes in the chamber within . l. chief just. was there no servant there ? mr. bol. not as i know . l. chief just. my reason is , because he must speak very loud to make his father hear him . mr. bol. yes he did , for i heard him in the chamber window that i stood in against them , they were are a little way off me . l. chief just. because if any of the servants were near , methinks they must needs be very cautious how they spoke so loud to make sir thomas gascoyne hear . mr. bol. my lord , he was not so deaf then as they say he is , and he seems to be now . and esq gascoyne also because he would be sure there should no damage come to him caused all his goods to be sold off his ground , and mr. middleton sold his very houshold goods . l. chief just. he is a papist too , is he not ? mr. bol. yes he is so . l. chief just. was not he at the meeting with sir miles stapleton ? mr. bol. yes , mr. middleton was one . l. chief just. you did not name him before . mr. just. pember . but he said a great many were there besides those he named . mr. just. dol. yes he did so . well go on sir. mr. bol. my lord last th of may , the day after holy thursday as i remember , being in sir thomas gascoynes own chamber , sir thomas gascoyne bid me go into the gallery next to the priests lodgings , and after a little time one william rushton my confessor , came to me , and asked me if i was at the last pontefret sessions . i told him yes , and that i had taken the oath of allegiance as others had done , whereupon the said ●…on told me , that i and all the others were damned for so doing if we kept the same . therefore he bid me be sure to come next sunday to have absolution from him , for it was a damnable sin to take that oath , and he told me he had power from the pope to absolve me , and he added , that few priests had that power that he had . l. chief just. did he make you confess that as a sin to him ? mr. bol. no , my lord , for i did make the discovery soon after . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 just. when was it you first turned protestant ? mr. bol. in june , my lord , after that . l. chief just. then you were not a protestant at that time ? mr. bol. no , my lord. l. chief just. where you a pap●…t when you took the oath of allegiance ? mr. bol. yes , my lord , i was . l. chief just. why would not you then go and be absolved according as your priest bid you ? mr. bol. i thought i had done nothing that was evil , because several had taken the oath with me as you shall hear afterward . l. chief just. well go on . mr. bol. i told him that several others had done , as well as i , that were papists , and they judged it lawful , whereupon he said , away , and told me i was a fool , and knew not how to judge of an oath . l. chief just. so you were satisfied the papists might take the oath ? mr. bol. my lord , i told him i thought it was no sin to take that oath , because it was an oath only to be true to my king and to my country , and i told him that mr. ellis priest to mr. vauasor had written comentaries upon the oath and justified the taking of it . said he again , mr. ellis was a fool and his superiors will call him to an accompt , and check him for his paines . but said he by taking the oath you have denyed the power of the pope to absolve you from it , but i tell you he hath a power to depose the king and had done it : and said he , you will merit heaven if you will kill him . l. chief just. who spoke to you ? mr. bol. rushton my lord said , it was a meritorious act to kill the king. l. chief just. but did sir thomas gascoyne or any of the company wish you to do that thing ? mr. bol. not at that meeting , but afterwards sir thomas did , my lord , if you will give me leave to go on . l. chief just. what did he say ? mr. bol. he told me he would assist me in the act. l. chief just. who ? mr. bol. rushton did . and he told me the pope had granted him the power , that i should have the benefit of absolution if i would do it . i desired him not to perswade me to do such a thing , for i would have no hand in it ; then he quoted a certain place of scripture to me which was , thou shalt bind their kings in fetters and their princes in chaines . whereupon he concluded , and made this exposition , that the pope had deposed the king , and absolved all his subjects , and it was a meritorious act to kill the king. and that unless the king would turn roman catholick the pope would give away his kingdomes to another ? l. chief just. well go on . mr. bol. then i told him i would have no hand in that act and deed , whereupon he answered me again , you may hang me if you please for speaking these words . no sir , said i , i will do you no injury if you do your self none . so he ●…id me consider what he said , and come to him againe , but i did not . l. chief just. this was the th of may ▪ mr. bol. yes , and the same day as soon as i came down . i was told sir thomas gascoyne had left order with his servants that i should not depart the house till he came in , and i stay'd there till about six of the clock . l. chief just. did not you live with him then ? mr. bol. i lived a little way off the house . l. chief just. how far ? mr. bol. about a quarter of a mile . l. chief just. were you not his servant ? mr. bol. no , my lord , not at that time . mr. just. jon. how long had you been gone out of his service before ? mr. bol. i went out of his service about the beginning of july . mr. just. pember . did sir thomas gascoyne send you into this gallery ? mr. bol. yes , my lord. mr. just. pember . and there you found rushton ? mr. bol. my lord , he was not there when i came , but he came as it were from chappel , l. c. j. you were his servant when all the gentlemen met at his house ? mr. bol. yes , my lord , i was . l. chief just. when did you leave his service say you ? mr. bol. the first day of july . l. chief just. and this was in may , was it not ? mr. bol. no in ( ) my lord , last may. my lord i watched and stayd till he came in , and took him as he came in . i went up stayers with him , and when we came into his chamber he calls me to him , and asked me what discourse had passed between me and rushton ; i told him our discourse was concerning the oath of allegiance , and the lawfulness , or unlawfulness of it . then sir thomas gascoyne took me by the hand , and told me , well man if thou wilt undertake a designe that i and others have to kill the king , i will give thee . l. and i will send thee to my son thomas , if he be in town , but if he be not in town , he said he would give me such instructions that i should find the rest that were concerned in the business . — l. chief just. the rest , what ? mr. bol. the rest that were in the plot. l. chief just. that you should know where to find them in london , you mean so ? mr. bol. yes , my lord , if he were gone beyond sea. l. chief just. what said you to him ? mr. bol. my lord , i told him i would have no hand in blood , and would not do such a wicked deed , and desired him to perswade me no more . then he desired me of all love to keep secret what he had said . but afterwards i recollected that it was a very ill thing , and went immediately to the justices of the peace . — l. chief just. how soon did you go ? mr. bol. soon after . l. chief just. to whom did you go ? mr. bol. to mr. tindal a justice of peace , and to mr. normanton . l. chief just. did you make an oath there ? mr. bol. yes , that sir thomas promised me . l l. chief just. and for what purpose ? mr. ●…ol . for killing the king. l. chief just. did you put that in the oath you made ? mr. bol. yes , my lord. l. chief just. what time was this after the discourse ? mr. bol. it was about a week or such a time . l. chief just. was it the next day ? mr. bol. no. l. chief just. was it within a fortnight ? mr. bol. yes , i believe it was my lord. l. chief just. was it not a month ? mr. bol. no it was not above a fortnight , for sir thoma●… gascoyne was apprehended in july or thereabouts i believe my lord. l chief just. but was that the first time that sir thomas ever spake to you to kill the king the th of may ? mr. bol. yes , my lord. mr. just. jon. you say you left sir thomas service in july ? mr. bol. yes , the first day of july . l. chief just. how did you leave him in good friendship ? mr. bol. yes , my lord in very good friendship . mr. just. jon. were you in good correspondence ? mr. bol. i always went to his house to hear mass , and oftentimes was there . l. chief just. how came you to leave his service ? m. bol. it was my own fault i left it . l. chief just. why , it might be no fault neither . but why did you leave it ? mr. bol. my lord , it was because there was one henry addison , and bennet johnson did seek to take my work and service out of my hands . sir thomas gascoyne did desire me to let them come in to see what they could do , and that i should have my sallary , and that i should gather in his debts ; i was willing to be rid of it , and told him they that looked after the pit should gather in the debts , for i conceived else it would be but a double charge to him . mr. just. dol. this is only how he left sir thomas his service , sir thomas thought the other men could do it better then he , and so said he then let them do your whole work . mr. just jon. but he says he did usually resort to the house after he had left his service to hear mass. mr. just. dol. they will ask him some questions , 't may be . l. chief just. had you any estate of your own when you left sir thomas service ? mr. bol. yes : i had a farme i rented of sir thomas gascoyne . l. chief just. what rent ? mr. bol. . l , and a mark a year , after i was married . l. chief just. when were you married ? mr. bol. in july ( ) but afterwards i was there , and did still service . mr. attorn . gen. i think you have some estate of your own besides that . mr. bol. yes , i have . l. a year . mr. attorn . gen. well , will you for sir thomas ask him any questions ? mr. bab. no. l. chief just. mr. bolron , pray what did the justice say to you when you made this oath ? mr. bol. my lord , thus , i was resolved to come to 〈◊〉 , and make●… confession here , and desired i might so do , whereupon one of the justices were unwilling , but at last they said , i might do what i would . l. ch. just. you say justice tindal it was sworn before , what did he say when you made the oath ? mr. bol. my lord , as i remember , he said , he must give the council an account of it , and perhaps he should not have an answer of it in a moneth after , so i thought it was better to come to london , and make a speedy dispatch of the business , for i did not know but the priests in the mean time might escape . l. c. j. but did mr. tindal do nothing upon that oath that was made ? mr. bol. yes , he did make out his warrant for the apprehending of one . l. c. j. did he not make out a warrant for the apprehending of sir thomas gascoyne ? mr. bol. my lord , i ●…hink they would have done it , but i desired i might come to the council . mr. just. pembert . how long after came you there ? mr. bol. as soon as i could get ready . l. c. j. what time came you thither ? mr. bol. my lord , i sent out upon monday and came hither to london upon wednesday ▪ l. c. j. do you know what moneth it was in ? mr. bol. in iune it was , i think . l. c. j. and who did you come and apply yourself to in london , when you came there ? mr. bol. my lord , i had a letter directed from mr. justice tindal to his brother tindal in london to carry me to the council . i chanced to lose this letter at ware , and losing it there , i came to the green dragon in bishopsgate street , i was acquainted with the man of the house and having told him some of my business , he carryed me before sir robert ctayton , and than we went to my lord of shaftsbury president of the council , and presently got an order of the council about me . l. c. j. how long was this after dr. oates discovery ? when did oates and be●…oe make their discovery ? mr. just. pembert . this was a long time after , in may last . mr. just. jones . did mr. tindal take your examination in writing ? mr. bol. he took a short thing in writing . mr. just. jones . did you set your hand to it ? mr. just. pembert . he resolved to go to the council and tell them . mr. bol. ●… was not willing to tell the justices all , for i had a mind to go to the council . mr. just. jones . but you told them the great matter of all , sir thonas's proffer to give you l. to kill the king. mr. bol. yes . mr. just. jones . had you a lease of your farm under sir thomas gascoyne ? mr. bol. it was but a lease parol . mr. just. jones . for how long ? mr. bol. for nine years . mr. babbington . may i have leave to ask him any questions ? court. yes , yes , you may . mr. babbing . you say you had a leafe of the farm , a lease parol . mr. bol. yes , i had so . mr. ser. mayn . council must not be allowed in matter of fact my lord. l. chief just. but brother , this man hath made a long narrative . mr. ser. mayn . ay , and a shrew'd one too . l. chief just. his evidence is very great , and sir thomas gascoyne does not hear any one word . mr. bol. one thing more i would speak to . it was in september a little before the discovery of the plot , i did hear sir thomas gascoyne say , and tell my ●…ady tempest , that he would send l. to dolebanke in hopes the blow would be given shortly . mr. ser. mayn . that is the same word used by all the wittnesses . l. chief just. when was this ? mr. bol. in september ( ) the plot was not known by us to be discovered then , as i know of . l. chief just. who did he speak it to ? mr. bol. to his daughter the lady tempest . l. chief just. what said she ? mr. bol. she seemed to like it very well , i did not hear any thing to the contrary . and i heard a letter read afterwards from cornwallis that he had received it , but it was too little for the carrying on so great a designe . l. chief just. who is cornwallis ? mr. bol. and it was for the arming the poor catholicks when the blow should be given . l. chief just. is his daughter living ? mr. attorn . gen. yes , she is out under bayle . mr. recor. my lord , i shall desire to ask but one question which concerns the prisoners at the bar. how long after the discourse that you had with the priest in the gallery was it that sir thomas gascoyne spoke to you of the same thing ? mr. just. pem. mr recorder , if you ask him but one question let it not be that which he hath answered before , he says the same day . mr. hob. i desire to ask him one question . mr. just. pem. no , tell sir thomas first what he hath said , and see if he will ask any questions . mr. hob. sir thomas , here is mr bolron hath given evidence against you , will you ask him any questions ? mr. just. pem. read your minutes to him . then mr. hobart repeated the first part about his coming to sir thomas gascoyne's service and the colliery conveyance . mr. just. jo●… . ask him if he will ask any questions upon this part , ( which he did ) sir tho. gas. no , t is no great matter at all , for it is true , when t was i can't tell , there was something i did seal to sir william ingleby , and some mony i had of him . then mr. hobart repeated his saying to metcalf he wo●…ld send . l. to the priests in ( ) sir tho. gas. how comes that , i deny that utterly . mr. bol. t is all true that i have said by the oath that i have taken . sir tho. gas. there is no such thing at all . mr. hob. he says , it was returned by mr phisick . sir tho. gas. phisick was a servant to me , and he returned some money ●…or me sometimes , but it was all for my children , my sons , and my daughters and my kinspeople , to whom i paid annuities , but 't is a far greater sum n the whole than l. and for one great sum of l. you know how it was disposed of . mr. hob. he says that in the beginning of , you said you had returned this l. to london , and if you had times as much you would give it for so good a cause . sir tho. gase . i never said any such thing , never thought of any such thing in my life . l. ch. just. now tell him of the meeting at barmbow . mr. hob. he says in the year ( ) there were seyeral gentlemen met at your house at barmbow . l. ch. just. name them ( which he did . ) mr. hob. these were all together with you . sir tho. gasc . no such matter at all . mr. hob. and he says all these persons did discourse with you about the establishing a nunnery at dolebanke , and another at heworth , and another at braughton . sir tho. gas●… . not one word of all this is true . l. ch. just. tell him what he said concerning killing the king. mr. hob. he says that the nunnery was established at dolebanke , and such and such were nuns . sir tho. gasc . he may say what he will , but not one word of all this is true . mr. just. dolb. but you skip over the main thing what the gentlemen resolved upon at that meeting . mr. hob. he says these gentlemen did resolve the business should go on for the killing of the king , and that they would venture their lives and estates for it . sir tho. gasc . i never heard of any such thing as killing the king , sir , did i ever say any such thing ? mr. bolr. it was in your own dining room , and in your own chamber . mr. just. pemb. he did not say so , i think , about their meeting . l. ch. just. yes , he says , they all met at his house , and there they had discourse of killing the king. in what room was it ? mr. bolr. in the old dining room . sir tho. gasc . i deny it utterly . there was no such thing . some persons might be at several times at my house , but no such meeting , nor words at all at one time or other . then mr. hobart told him of mr. gascoines and mr. middletons licenses to go to london , and intention to go to france . sir tho. gasc . 't is very true my son did go to london for that end . m. hob. and so mr. middleton upon pretence of receiving rent . sir tho. gasc . i cannot tell about mr. middleton , mr. hob. he says your son would immediately fly into france , and commit the design into other hands , and you said you approved of it , and this he heard you discourse very plainly . sir tho. gasc . but i plainly deny it all . mr. hob. he says you bid him go up ( the th . of may ) to the gallery to m r. rushton . l. c. j. no , not to him , but when he was in the gallery rushton came to him . then mr. hobart repeated the discourse with rushton about the oath of allegiance . l. c. j. you need not tell him what rushton said . mr. just. dolben . yes , my lord , it is convenient . mr. bolron . for i told him our discourse about the oath of allegiance my self . then hobart repeated sir thomas's further discourse and proffer to him . sir tho. gascoyne . there is nothing of all this true . he might come there and talk with any body , for what i know , but i was not with him . l. c. j. but ask him what he says to this , that he proffered him l. to kill the king ? ( which he did . ) sir tho. gascoyne . where should you be paid it ? mr. bolron . i would not undertake the design . sir tho. gascoyne . did you ever know i was master of l. together in my life ? mr. bolron . yes . l. c. j. tell him he sayes he would not undertake it , and therefore it was in vain to appoint where . sir tho. gascoyne . i utterly deny it all , upon my life ; that 's e'en just like the rest , i never heard it before . l. c. j. he puts it to you , whether ever you saw him have l. together ? mr. bolron . i have seen l. at a time in the house , and i have seen in phiswick's hand l. ( which was repeated to him . ) sir tho. gascoyne . what phiswick might have of other mens moneys i do not know , he never had so much money of mine . mr. bolron . my lord , sir tho. gascoyne i believe had at that time , at least l. a year of his own estate . ( which was repeated to him . ) sir tho. gascoyne . i wish he would make it good . mr. bolron . my lord , 't is true enough , i believe he hath setled some estate upon his son , about l. a year . l. chief . just. i can't tell what becomes of the papists estates , nor how the priests drain them , but there are men of very great estates among them , but they are greatly in debt . mr. hobart . will you ask mr. bolron any questions ? mr. just. jones . you have not repeated to him one part of the evidence , that in september ( . ) he said to my lady tempest he would send l. to dolebank , in hopes the blow would be given shortly . ( which was then repeated . ) sir tho. gascoyne . i know no such thing at all . there is not one word of all this true . mr. hobart . will you ask him any questions or no ? sir tho. gascoyne . i know not what questions to ask , but where the money should be paid ? l. c. j. that can be no question , for the thing was never undertaken . mr. attorn . gen. then pray , mr. mowbray , tell your knowledge . mr. mowbray . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , i came to sir tho. gascoyne's in the beginning of the year . l. c. j. were you his servant ? mr. mowbray . y●…s , my lord , but never an hired servant . l. c. j. in what quality did you serve him ? mr. mowbray . in his chamber , my lord , and continued with sir thomas until , in which time i did observe mr. thomas addison a priest , fincham a priest , stapleton a priest , killingbecks a priest , and thwing the elder , and the younger , several times to visit and confer with mr. william rushton , sir tho. gascoyne's confessor . l. ch. j. were you a papist then ? mr. mowbray . yes , i was . l. c. j. are you one now ? mr. mowbray . no. l. c. j. well , go on then . mr. mowbray . i being very diligent in attending mr. rushton at the altar , i became in great favour with him , and was permitted to be in the chamber when the priests were in private with him , and i heard them often talk and discourse of a design laid for setting the popish religion uppermost in england , and how like the same was to take effect in a short time . l. c. j. who did speak it ? mr. mowbray . the priests in private with mr. rushton . i speak now , my lord , of the plot in general , i come to sir thomas gascoyne anon . l. c. j. when ? in what year was this discourse ? mr. mowbray . in . l. c. j. well , what said they ? mr. mowbray . why , they discoursed concerning the setting up the popish religion in england , and how like the same was to take effect , and succeed , in regard that most of the considerable papists in england had engaged to act for it , and if it could not be done by fair means , force must be used ; and particularly declared , that london and york were to be fired . l. c. j. in ( ? ) mr. mowbray . yes . l. c. j. what ? would they fire it again ? mr. mowbray . and i heard them often say , that the king in exile had promised them — l. j. c. did they say the city was to be fired the second time ? mr. mowbray . yes , to further their intention . mr. serj. maynard . it was effected in southwark . mr. mowbray . and they did also declare , that the king when he was in his exile had promised the jesuits beyond sea to establish their religion , whenever he was restored , which they now despaired of , and therefore he was adjudged an heretick , and was to be killed . l. c. j. who did say this ? mr. mowbray . the priests . l. c. j. who was the heretick ? mr. mowbray . the king. also i did hear mr. william rushton tell addison and the rest of the priests — l. c. j. do you know which of the priests said the king was to be killed ? mr. mowbray . it was rushton . rushton and addison were together , and he did declare to mr. addison , that according to agreement he had given the oath of secresie and the sacrament to sir thomas gascoyne , esquire gascoyne , his son , my lady tempest , his daughter , and mr. stephen tempest , and had communicated the whole design to them . l. j. c. were you by , when he said this ? mr. mowbray . yes , in his chamber . l. c. j. how long after the discourse of the priests was this ? mr. mowbray . my lord , he told them he had done it according to agreement before ; and they did approve of it , and had severally engaged to be active , faithful , and secret , and would do to the utmost of their powers , as far as their estates would permit , to establish the roman catholick religion in england . and about michaelmas . there was another meeting of these priests , and others ; where they declared , that the king was an heretick , and that the pope had excommunicated him , and all other hereticks in england , scotland , and ireland , and that force was to be made use of . mr. just. dolben . when was that , sir ? mr. mowbray . about michaelmas . mr. just. jones . you were his servant then ? mr. mowbray . yes , my lord. and then did rushton produce a list of names , of about four or five hundred , and he read them over , all of whom , he said , were engaged in the design , and he did read the names of sir tho. gascoyne , tho. gascoyne esq my lady tempest , mr. vavasor , sir francis hungast , sir john savile , the two townleys , mr. sherborne , and others . l. chief just. did you see this list ? mr. mowbray . i saw several subscriptions to it , and amongst the rest i saw sir tho. gascoyne's own hand . l. c. j. do you know it ? mr. mowbray . yes , very well . l. c. j. and upon the oath you have taken , do you believe that was his hand to the list ? mr. mowbray . yes , my lord , i do believe it was his hand . l. chief just. did you know any other hands ? don't you know his son's hand ? mr. mowbray . no , nor any but sir tho. gascoyne's . l. c. j. it was in several hands , was it not ? mr. mowbray . yes , it seemed to me to be so . l. c. j. what did they subscribe to do ? mr. just. pemberton . this was in ? mr. mowbray . no , it was about michaelmas . l. c. j. what was it for ? mr. mowbray . the title of it was , as i remember , a list of them that are engaged in the design of killing the king , and promoting the catholick religion . l. c. just. was that writ on the top ? mr. just. pemberton . they were words , i suppose , to that effect . mr. mowbray . yes , it was to that effect , my lord. l. c. j. was it mentioned in the list , for killing the king ? mr. mowbray . yes . and then they declared also , that the pope had given commission to put on the design , and prosecute it as quick as they could , and that he had given a plenary indulgence of years for all those that should act either in person or estate for killing the king , and setting up the romish religion in england , besides a pardon and other gratifications . and so much as to the plot in general . now , my lord , i come to the particulars as to the prisoner at the bar , sir tho. gascoyne . about michaelmas . much about that time , there was sir tho. gascoyne and his son , my lady tempest , and rushton the priest together , where i heard them hold several discourses of this design about killing the king , and firing the cities of london and york ; and sir tho. gascoyne did declare and assure mr. rushton , that he would not swerve from what he had said , but would keep to the oath of secrecy he had given him , and that he would do to the uttermost of his power for the killing the king , and the establishment of popery . l. c. j. were you in the room ? mr. mowbray . i stood close at the door , where i heard very well , the door was not quite shut . l. c. j. they did not know you were there ? mr. mowbray . no. l. c. j. they would not trust you with it then ? mr. mowbray . they did not know i was there . and they did unanimously conclude , that it was a meritorious undertaking , and for the good of the church , and they would all venture their lives and estates in it . l. c. j. rushton was there , was he not ? mr. mowbray . yes , rushton was there : and dr. stapleton , a priest , coming from another door , and finding me at the door , went in and desired them to speak lower , for there was one at the door . whereupon my lady tempest called me in , and ordered me to go below and entertain some strangers . so much for the particulars concerning sir tho. gascoyne . mr. just. pemberton . was sir miles stapleton there at that time ? mr. mowbray . yes , he was there . l. c. j. where ? mr. mowbray . in an upper room . l. c. j. who were by ? mr. mowbray . mr. gascoyne , and the priest , and my lady tempest . l. c. j. this is all you say . mr. mowbray . yes , so far as to the particulars of this matter . mr. serj. maynard . have you any more to say ? mr. mowbray . no , no more but these particulars , unless some questions be asked . then hobart began to repeat this evidence to sir tho. gascoyne , how he came to be his servant . sir tho. gascoyne . he came as a boy to me , without hiring . then mr. hobart repeated the priests discourse at rushton's . sir tho. gascoyne . i deny it all . l. c. j. he was not present , this was a discourse among themselves . then hobart told him about the oath of secresie and the sacrament . sir tho. gascoyne . no , there is no such thing , there is not a word of it true . l. c. j. then tell him of the list. ( which was done . ) sir tho. gascoyne . 't is a most impudent lye. mr. hobart . what say you to your hand being to that list ? sir tho. gascoyne . not one word of it . mr. hobart . but he sayes 't was your name to it . sir tho. gascoyne . he had a pair of spectacles on sure that could see any thing . was it a printed list , or a written one ? mr. mowbray . it was written , your name was put to it , with your own hand-writing . ( which was told him . ) sir. tho. gascoyne . he makes what he will. then mr. hobart repeated rushton's declaring that he had given him the sacrament of secresie . sir. tho. gascoyne . i 'll warrant you he hath gotten this oath of secresie out of the news books , for i never heard of it before . let me ask thee ? didst thou ever hear it before you came to london ? mr. mowbray . yes , sir thomas , i did . mr. hobart . but will you ask him any question ? sir. tho. gascoyne . no ; it is all false he speaks , not a word of truth comes out of his mouth . mr. serj. maynard . my lord , we will now go on to another piece of our evidence . sir tho. gascoyne . i must leave it to the jury to take notice of their conversations and mine . mr. serj. maynard . whereas he says he was never owner of l. together , we will produce his own almanack under his own hand . l. j. c. do it , and we will shew it him , and see what he sayes to it . sir tho. gascoyne . why did not he discover it before ? mr. hobart . if your lordship please , sir thomas desires he may be asked why he did not discover it before ? mr. mowbray . because the papists did threaten me at such a rate , and i , being a single person against them , durst not . l. c. j. when did you first discover it ? mr. mowbray . it was about michaelmas last . the papists did threaten me , that if i did discover it they would take my life away . l. chief just. when did you turn protestant ? mr. mowbray . when the plot broke out , then i took the oaths of allegiance and supremacy . l. c. j. why did you not discover it as soon as you turned protestant ? mr. mowbray . my lord , i was not in a condition to make any friends , or come up to london upon such an account ; besides , my lord , they did threaten me ; and particularly after the plot was come out , addison did threaten me . l. c. j. but this was a great while before the plot broke out . mr. just. dolben . so long he continued a papist , and then he would not discover . mr. mowbray . this addison was often with me , and he flatter'd me , and made me continue a papist , least i should discover it . l. c. j. where is he now ? mr. mowbray . he is fled . l. c. j. what said addison when you did turn protestant ? mr. mowbray . he said if i did discover , he would take away my life . l. c. j. i wonder they did not give you the oath of secresy . mr. mowbray . yes my lord , i did receive it from rushton's own hand . l. c. j. when ? mr. mowbray . in . l. c. j. who receiv'd it with you ? mr. mowbray . it was given to me after the communicants were gone from the chappel . l. c. j. what was the oath ? mr. mowbray . he reserved the sacrament for me , and swore me by it , that i should be faithful and secret , and should not reveal any discourse i was privy to . l. c. j. reveal no discourse , what discourse did they mean ? mr. mowbray . those discourses when the priests were in private with him . then sir tho. gascoyne's almanack was produced . mr. attorn . gen. who proves sir thomas his hand ? is this sir thomas gascoyne's hand ? bolron and mowbray . yes , it is his hand . l. c. j. shew it him himself , ( which was done ) mr. hobart . is that your hand ? sir tho. gascoyne . yes , i think i saw it at the council table , this is my writing , and i will justifie every word that is written there . mr. attor . gen. read that one place . clerk. the th to peter for a . l. to corker . mr. attor . gen. if your lordship please , i desire he may be asked what that l. was for . mr. hobart . look you here sir , did you order l. to be paid to corker ? sir tho. gascoyne . it may be i did . mr. hobart . what was it for ? sir tho. gascoyne . for the portion of a child i had . mr. hobart . what child was that ? sir tho. gascoyne . i know not who it was , mary appleby , i think . mr. attor . gen. pray ask him how it came to corkers hands ? why it was returned to corker . sir tho. gascoyne . i know not that , because wee did not know where she liv'd , she was beyond sea. mr. hobart . where is she ? sir tom. gascoyne . she is at paris . mr. attor . gen. here is another book of his that does make mention of l. to mr. corker upon agreement between them . l. c. j. ask him how much money he might return to corker from time to time . ( which was done ) sir tho. gascoyne . my lord i don't know , we have been several years returning of money . l. c. j. hath he return'd or l. in all ? sir tho. gascoyne . no , i don't think so much . mr. attorn . gen. pray ask him how much was mrs. appleby's portion . sir tho. gascoyne . indeed i can't certainly say , but as the rents came in , i was to pay several sums to several persons , it was a l. a year to that mary appleby , it may be l. in all from first to last , but i shall satisfie you about that . mr. attor . gen. will you satisfie us anon why l. was paid in one year . then the book was shewn to sir thomas , who owned it to be his hand . l. c. j. read it . clerk. q. of mr. corker , what bills , for how much , and to whom directed , he hath received of me since the th of july . to june . vid. the book , p. . and the great book , fol. . where you may find p. for . l. and agree in this accompt corker , the th of august , . mr. attor . gen. first he makes a quaere , how much he returned , and then says he , the th of august i and corker agreed . l. c. j. let him read it himself . ( which he did ) mr. hobart . what say you to that , that you sent so much money to corker ? mr. just. pemberton . you must understand he is one of the priests , and bolron swears , that he intended to send . l. and by l. a piece , he reckons up . l. sir tho. gascoyne . it was a great many years , and several times . l. c. j. tell him it was but between july . and june . sir tho. gascoyne . that does not appear . mr. attor . gen. yes , it does , by the book . mr. just. dolben . then how came you to return . l. in one year to corker ? mr. serj. maynard . and never had l. he says together . mr. attorn . gen. then here is another passage in this book , if it please your lordship to have it read . clerk. take heworth at an easie rent of the widow — and purchase the reversion of craddock — and in the interim dawson . mr. just. dolben . ask him what he did mean by taking of heworth ? sir tho. gascoyne . i took no house there . mr. just. dolben . but did he agree to buy the reversion of it . sir tho. gascoyne . it was for my neece thwing . she was born in the house , and was very desirous to be in the house . mr. just. dolben . ay! but why did he take the lease of the widow , during her joynture , and why buy the reversion ? sir tho. gascoyne . i know no reason but my affection to her . mr. attor . gen. ask him who he did intend should live in the house ? sir tho. gascoyne . nay , i don't know what they intended my neece thwing . mr. just. dolben . did you intend to buy it for yourself ? sir tho. gascoyne . no , i lent her the money . mr. just. dolben . did you intend it for her ? sir tho. gascoyne . i might do with it what i would . mr. attor . gen. ask him if his neece thwing was a single woman , and was to have the whole house to her felf ? sir tho. gascoyne . she had her brother with her . mr. hobart . he sayes mrs ellen thwing was a nun , mrs. lassels was to be lady abbess , mrs. beckwith was her assistant , and mrs. cornwallis and others were nuns . l. c. j. ask him if mrs. lassels was not to be lady abbess and live there ? sir tho. gascoyne . i know nothing of it . mr. att. gen. ask him if there was not one mrs. benningfield to be there ? sir tho. gascoyne . no. mr. bolron . yes , she was to be there . mr. just. jones . why , do you know any thing of her ? mr. att. gen. she is in york gaol . mr. bolron . no , she is gone from thence . my lord , ellen thwing was a nun , and was sent for from beyond sea to instruct all them that should be made nuns , and this father cornwallis was father confessor to the nuns . he is now in york goal , taken with two women . mr. just. jones . ask him what he meant by that writing in the almanack ? sir tho. gascoyne . i did write things here for a memorandum to help and assist my neece , and the poor children of my brother ; and so the widow that was sir walter vavasor's sister , was to sell the house , and one craddock meant to sell all the lordship , and the children were desirous to keep the house , and so they bought the house and one close , and all the rest was sold ; so i writ it onely that they should have the assistance of sir walter vavasor to have the house . mr. just. dolben . pray ask him what he means by the words , in the interim at dawson . sir. tho. gascoyne . nay , what do i know . l. c. j. ask , if mrs. thwing were not a nun ? sir tho. gascoyne . they did desire if they could not get that house , that they might have another house . mr. just. dolben . and all this for mrs. thwing . ask him if she was not beyond sea , and kept in a nunnery ? sir tho. gascoyne . nay , i can't tell what she was . mr. att. gen. here is another note in this almanack , pray read it . it was sirst shewed to sir tho. gascoyne , who owned it to be his hand . clerk. mr. harcourt , next house to the arch within lincolns-inn-fields , mr. parr's . l. c. j. no question but he was acquainted with all the priests about the town , and had directions to write to them . mr. just. pemberton . he hath been priest-ridden by them , that is plain . mr. recorder . ask him what he means by the last mark there set under london ? sir. tho. gascoyne . i can't tell what it is , 't is a quaere . mr. att. gen. in the almanack there is a memorandum to acquaint mr. 〈◊〉 with the whole design , what it was , i can't tell . l. c. j. ay , pray let 's see that . mr. attorn . gen. this thwing is a priest , in newgate at this time . clerk. the th of april . memorand . acquaint mr. thomas thwing with the whole design . l. c. j. now shew him that . sir tho. gasc . look you , what is it you would have ? mr. hobart . what design was that ? sir tho. gascoyne . it was my providing moneys for him and his sister , that they should tell how to purchase the house . mr. att. gen. what , a priest and a nun ? mr. just. dolb. they had vow'd contrary to that . mr. just. pemb. ask him whether thwing be not a priest ? mr. hobart . is this thwing a priest ? thomas thwing ? sir tho. gascoyne . no , it was ferdinando thwing , that is now dead . mr. att. gen. no , but this is thomas thwing : is he a priest ? sir tho. gasc . i do not know , what have i to do ? l. c. j. then consider how likely it was , he was to purchase an house for a priest and a nun , for some such business as is sworn . mr. hobart . he sayes no , my lord. l. c. j. what is the meaning of it then , that he should name the whole design ? mr. hobart . he sayes it was the brothers and sisters that lived next door to him . l. c. j. ay , but 't is said , acquaint thomas thwing with the whole design . mr. hobart . he might acquaint thomas thwing with such his intention . mr. att. gen. we will now shew your lordship a letter , taken among the papers of sir thomas gascoyne , wherein is this proviso , talking of the settlement , in the formal settlement , let this proviso be added , if england were converted , then to be disposed so and so . l. c. j. mr. bolron , how came you by that paper ? mr. bolron . i took this paper in sir thomas gascoyne's chamber , with several others , i remember some had his hand to them , others had not , and some were signed pracid , and some cornwallis . l. c. j. is there any mark of his hand to that paper ? mr. att. gen. yes there is a mark in this , of sir thomas's own hand , the word ( yes ) in the margent . clerk. dolebank , june the th . . most honoured sir , after most grateful acknowledgments of all your charitable favours , as to my own particular ; i am also herewith to present most humble and heartiest thanks on behalf of your neece , and mrs. hastings here , who both would esteem it a great happiness to see you here , as also my lady , your honoured daughter , to whom we beseech our humble respects may be presented . i have sent the paper safely to good mrs. bedingfield , from whom shortly you will have religious acknowledgments . i told her , that i suppos'd you would judge fitting to insert into the formal writing the proviso , viz. that if england be converted , then the whole l. per annum is to be applyed here in yorkshire , about , or at heworth , &c. the which , doubtless , will be as acceptable unto her , and as much to 〈◊〉 as possibly can be imagined . now , dearest sir , let me not be too much troublesom , save only to wish you from his divine majesty , for whose everlasting glories greater praise and honour you do this most pious action , the happy enjoyment of that glory everlasting . i would lastly advise you in gods holy name , to compleat the business by drawing the formal writing as soon as possible ; & without making any material alteration from what you have already signed , save only the proviso above written . i should be glad to know concerning the receipt hereof ; and when sir miles and your son are likely to attend you to finish the business : as also when mr. pierpoint shall be arrived . these good religious are very desirous with your approbation ( and mrs. bed. at my coming from her wished the same ) to try for a removal to mr. dawson's ; th'impediments here being essential , as the house incapable to receive more scholars , with many other inconveniences also . time permits no more , only we again express our earnest desires to see your honour here with my lady , as the greatest satisfaction we can desire : i remember you hinted to mrs. beding . not long since , that perhaps you might see her at hammersmith . and how much easier you may come hither , we earnestly beseech you to take into consideration to the purpose . most honoured sir , your honour 's most obliged faithful servant , jo. pracid . l. c. j. i think 't is pretty plain , there was a design of erecting a nunnery . mr. serj. maynard . if england is converted then the whole l. a year to be employed in yorkshire about a rotten house , which would be much for gods glory . l. c. j. what other evidence have you ? mr. recorder . if your lordship please , we have another letter dated from york castle , and the backside of the letter is indorsed by sir tho. gascoyne's own hand , the time when he received it . l. c. j. when was it ? mr. recorder . the last may , he dates it from york castle , where he was in prison , and therein gives sir thomas an account of the opinion of the doctors of sorbonne about the taking the oath of allegiance . l. c. j. no doubt all of them do not approve of it . mr. just. dolben . as i believe this same pracid was the occasion of so many gentlemen refusing the oath of allegiance , i convicted above of them in that county for not taking of it . mr. serj. maynard . noscitur ex comite . you see if this be the effect of it , what reason we have to rid our selves of these priests . one that dares write such a letter , and 't is found in sir thomas's study . mr. just. pemberton . and sir thomas's own hand on the back of it . mr. serj. maynard . my lord , under favour , i do take it , that the debauching of men in point of conscience , that they may not take the oath of allegiance is to set them loose from the government , and loose from the king , and make them ready to arm when they have opportunity . mr. just. pemberton . no doubt of it brother . l. c. j. all the jesuits say they may not take it , but some of the sorbonists say they may . mr. just. pemberton . but now you see they are against it . l. c. j. some will , and some will not allow it . mr. just. jones . they take or leave oaths as it is convenient for them . then the letter being shewn to mr. mowbray , and the indorsment acknowledged to be sir thomas's hand was read . clerk. york castle , may the th . honoured , and ever dearest sir , longer time having pass'd since your last writing , it is fit to inform you how gods holy providence disposes concerning us . all the out-prisoners being call'd into the castle , ( as you may have heard ) mrs. hastings room was needed , and so she went into castle-gate to reside at the former lodging of one mrs. wait , ( who is now in the jayl ) where she remains with mrs. wait's two children , and their maid-servant , teaching the children , as formerly ; also the moor's neece goes daily thither ; and mrs. hastings lives without charge as to diet and lodging , as i formerly told you ; she spends all her time well , god be praised , and comes every morning about seven a clock to serve god at the castle : but i and two others are much abridg'd of that happiness by her room being left by her here . my liberty of going abroad is restrain'd with the rest , none being as yet permitted the least , since these last were forced to come in . madam was here the other day , and seem'd somewhat timorous about mrs. hastings teaching : but most in the castle perswaded her , that it was most commendable and most secure , and so she rests satisfied : mrs. cornwallis is recovered of her ague , god be blest : she desires her dutiful respects may be alwayes presented unto you , and intends her self to write to you . mrs. wood and her companion are well , but dare not as yet walk in their own garden . all our now prisoners are chearful , and each of us comforted , in hopes that god will make all catholicks of one mind : for i have a letter from our * spr. at london ( who was the same day taken and carried to prison ) wherein he declares , alledging authority , that the pretended oath of allegiance cannot be taken , as it is worded , adding , that three brieves have formerly been sent from the pope , expresly prohibiting it ; and in the third , it is declared damnable to take it . and yesterday we had a letter communicated amongst us , sent by mr. middleton ( now at paris ) to his friends here , containing the attestation of all the sorbon doctors against it ; adding , that whosoever here in england give leave , they deceive people , and are contrary to the whole ●…atholick church . there was also a meeting some years ago , of all the superiours both secular and regular , wherein it was unanimously declared , that it could not be taken . mr. hutchison ( aliàs berry ) who has lately printed a pamphlet in defence of the oaths , has the other day declared himself protestant at st. margarets westminster . and so i rest , honoured sir , your ever obliged j. p. mr. recorder . that is all , the other is private . mr. att. gen. if your lordship please , we shall now prove by some witnesses , that he hath returned great sums of money , because he said , he never had l. together ; and for this we call mr. phiswick ; ( who was sworn . ) come sir , were you a servant to sir tho. gascoyne ? mr. phiswick . yes . mr. att. gen. for how long time ? mr. phiswick . for six years and upwards . mr. att. gen. in that six years time what sums of money did you return to london ? mr. phiswick . 't is abstracted in a note . mr. att. gen. did you return all the sums in that note ? mr. phiswick . i refer my self to my almanack . mr. att. gen. did you set down this account ? mr. phiswick . yes , sir. mr. att. gen. then thus , sir , pray what comes it to ? mr. phiswick . those sums do come to l. l. c. j. whose money was that ? mr. phiswick . part of it was sir thomas's , part his so●…s , and part my lady tempest 's . l. c. j. can you tell how much in any one year you returned upon the account of sir thomas ? mr. phiswick . not unless i had my almanack . l. c. j. it will be endless to look over the particulars . mr. just. pemberton . can you make any estimate 〈◊〉 six years how much you returned for sir thomas himself ? mr. phiswick . no , not without my almanack , because i returned money for them all . mr. att. gen. my lady tempest and mr. gascoyne , it hath been proved , were in all the discourses . l. c. j. but that hath not any influence upon sir thomas . mr. phiswick . the esquire lived much in london . mr. just. dolb. what estate had he to live upon ? mr. phiswick . betwixt and l. a year . mr. just. pemb. what estate had sir thomas besides ? mr. mowbray . my lord , i believe it was l. a year , besides what mr. gascoyne had . mr. just. dolb. and what had my lady tempest ? mr. phiswick . three hundred pound a year . mr. just. dolben . but she lived in yorkshire ? mr. phiswick . yes . mr. just. dolben . so she needed little returns to london ? mr. just. pemberton . but admit they had returned all , yet there was l. a year to be returned for sir thomas . mr. att. gen. my lord , here is mr. mawson , i think l. was received by him . mr. phiswick . i paid in the countrey , at leeds , money , that he paid here in town . mr. att. gen. here is l. paid to harcourt , i would ask him whether it were the same harcourt that was executed ? mr. just. pemberton . i think that not material . mr. att. gen. my lord , if you please we will shew you the examination taken before the council , that sir thomas did own this bolron had bin his servant , and never unfaithful , but always took him to be , as he now found him , a fool. mr. just. dolben . if he object any thing , it will come in properly by way of reply . mr. att. gen. then now we have done till we hear what the prisoner says to it . l. c. j. tell him they have done with their evidence against him , if he will have any witnesses examined , he must call them . mr. hobert . the kings evidence have bin all heard , and said as much as they can , the court askes you if you would call any witnesses , or say any thing for your self ? have you any witnesses here ? sir thomas gascoyne . yes . mr. hobart . name them , sir. mr. just. dolben . ask what he will have done with them ? mr. just. jones . let him tell us to what purpose he will call them . sir thomas gascoyne . to examine them to the credit , and demeanour of these men , and that there is no probability in their suggestions . mr. hobart . name them , sir. sir tho. gascoyne . they are all in that note . mr. babbington was first examined . mr. just. pemberton . ask sir thomas what he would have him asked . sir tho. gascoin . look you , sir , what do you know concerning the difference between mr. bolron and i ? l. c. j. well , what say you to that q●…estion ? mr. babbington . my lord , i have not been imploied in sir thomas gascoin's business before the last winter . mr. just. dolbin . what do you know then ? mr. babbington . about spring last sir thomas gascoine was consulting with me about money bolron owed him upon two bonds , and gave me directions to sue them . and likewise he was giving me directions to deliver declarations in ejectment for gaining the possession of his farm , because he did not pay his rent — . l. c. j. how much were the bonds for ? mr. babbington . i have them here i think . l. c. j. you need not look for them , you may tell us the sums . mr. babbington . the one is for twenty eight pounds , the other twenty , to the best of my remembrance . mr. bolron having notice of this , did desire he would accept of a conveyance of an house he had at newcastle for satisfaction of his debt . sir thomas was unwilling to accept of it , but i did prevail with him to accept it , not in satisfaction , but as an additional security ; and the deeds i have here that i drew for that end . mr. just. pemberton . what time was this ? mr. babbington . this was a little before last trinity term begun . i have taken a memorandum within a day or two , if your lordship will give me leave to look upon it . mr. just. dolben . have you not had all this time to get your papers ready ? mr. babbington . my memory is very short indeed . but now i see about the third or fourth of june sir thomas gave me orders to deliver declarations in ejectment . mr. just. dolben . when did he first bid you question him for monies upon the bonds ? mr. babbington . it was sometime in may. l. c. j. did he tell you , you must sue him ? mr. babbington . yes . l. c. j. what t●…en did bolron say ? mr. babbington . bolron did then desire that sir thomas would accept of security out of his house at newcastle . sir thomas was very hard to be perswaded , but at length i did prevail with him , and i used this argument , that it was not to lend so much money upon that security , but his money was already out of his hands , a●…d else desperate , and this was a further security , and that it would not lessen his other security , and upon these perswasions he did let me draw a deed to that purpose . l. c. j. was this some t●…me in may ? mr. babbington . this d●…course was in may. l. c. j. are you sure of it ? mr. 〈◊〉 . the directions that i had for drawing the deed was in june , but the discourse with sir thomas was in may , and i do per●…ectly remember it by a circumstance which i shall tell your lordship . a●…er the deeds were drawn , ( for drawing of which i had a letter under b●…lrons own hand , and if occasion be i have the letter here to produce ) i came from york , having bin there , and appointed a day for the sealing of them . i came to the house where bolron lived , and sir thomas met me , and there ●… produced the deeds , and he of himself was very ready and willing to ●…he sealing of them , but his wife , who was joyned in the deeds wi●…●…im , would not by any means seal , unless sir thomas would deliver up the bonds he had taken for the money , but sir thomas did utterly refuse to deliver up the bonds . l. c. j. what time in june was this ? mr. babbington . a little before whitsontide . l. c. j. what time was that ? mr. babbington . that was the th of june , as i remember , that i delivered the declaration ; and that day before , which was the th to the best of my remembrance , i had this communication and discourse about sealing the writings , which the wife refused to joyn in ; but sir thomas would only take it as an additional security , refusing to deliver up the bonds , but he would suspend further prosecution , and bolron did then desire no longer time then a month for payment of the money . but his wife tho she were urged to seal the writings would not be perswaded , but utterly denied it . after we had spent a great deal of time there , bolron comes to me and desires me to come another time , and he would perswade his wife to seal the deed ; nay , said i , 't is not fit for me to come up and down unless it be to some purpose , and your wife will seal ; will ! nay , saies he , i will force her to it . my answer was this , if you take these courses , mr. bolron , i must by no means be concerned in the matter ; for your wi●…e must pass a fine , and we must examine her ●…ecretly , and if she tells me she does it by your force , i will not pass it if you would give me a l. after this about a fortnight he sent for me to come and his wife would seal . l. c. j. by the way , are you a protestant ? mr. babbington . yes , i am sir. l. c. j. and always was ? mr. babbington . yes . mr. att. gen. yes , he is an attorney at large , i know him very well . mr. babbington . this was a fortnight or three weeks after that , the latter end of june , he sent for me to his house , and that his wife would be contented to seal . and this he desired might be done on the tuesday , which was leeds market-day , and i could not go . the next day i called upon him at shippon-hall ; he was then within , a●…d desired me to go up to barmbow to sir tho. gascoyn's with him : he said he should go within two or three days to newcastle , for he had a chapman that would lay down the money , and take the security of the house , and he desired he might have the liberty to go thither to treat about it . i told him i did believe it would be no hard matter to perswade sir thomas to that , for he would be very glad of it . i went up with him to barmbow , and as we went along , he asked me if sir thomas did intend to sue him upon his bond ? i told him i had directions so to do . he asked me likewise if he would turn him out of his farm ? i told him , yes , if he would not pay his rent ; and the truth of it is , he did then deny he had received the declaration in ejectment : but my man afterwards made his affidavit of delivery , and had judgment upon it . afterwards i went up to sir thomas , and told him what bolron desired , and he consented to it as readily as it could be asked ; and in coming away he told bolron , that in the management of his coalpits he did neglect very much , and did go abroad , staying away two or three days together . to this bolron made some excuse , and said it was for collecting his debts . said sir thomas , i know not what you are about , but if you do well for your self , i am satisfied . l. c. j. how long had he been from him , and left his service then ? mr. babbington . i know not when he went , but this was in june last . after this we went back again , and in coming back he was very inquisitive to the same purpose ; he was asking me — l. c. j. you say he child him , and told him he was not a good husband in his coalery . mr. babbington . yes ; and as we came back he was inquisitive whether sir tho. gascoin would sue him , and turn him out of his farm. i did then enter into the same expressions , and told him , if he did not pay , he must be sued . l. c. j. you told me , sir thomas was agreed to stay so long , when was this ? mr. babbington . my lord , this was after we had parted with sir thomas . l. c. j. after sir thomas had prom●…ed him to s●…ay so long time , then said he , as you were coming home , do you think he will sue me , and turn me out of my farm ? mr. babbing . yes , said i. well , said he , then by god i will do that which i did not intend to do . what he meant by it . i cannot tell , but this was a little before he came to london , which i judge to be the latter end of june ; and this is all i have to say . then obadiah moor was called . mr. just. jones . did you tell sir thomas gascoyne , what he said , then i will do what i never did intend to do . mr. babbington . i did never tell him my lord , for i look'd upon it as an idle expression . and i will tell your lordship why ; because this man that is now to be examined did tell me how that he was bound for him , and that bolron to incourage him to be bound , said , you need not fear , for if sir thomas sues me , i will inform against him for keeping priests in his house ; and i did look upon it as an idle expression . mr. moor. my lord , in september last was month , mr. bolron did desire me to be bound with him to sir tho. gascoyn . said i , i told him , mr. bolron , i have some small acquaintance with you , but i have no reason to be bound with you . said he , do not fear ; there is my brother baker , and stephen thompson are to be bound as well as you . said he , i will give you my counter-security . that signifies nothing , said i. you need not fear any suits , said he ; for if sir thomas sues me , i will inform against him for keeping priests . said he , when must this money be paid ? said he , at candlemas next . so we went and were bound ; the one bond was to be paid at candlemas last , and the other in august . and after candlemas he did not pay the money , and said i , mr. bolron , i don't like these bonds , you must make new bonds for my security . i was afraid of being sued , and i desired mr. babbington to bring a writ against him , which he did ; and upon holy-thursday i had two bayliffs ready to arrest him , but he could not be found ; and i had two likewise the saturday before at his pi●…s . presently after he came up to london , and made an information , and on the th of august last i met him in ferry bridg , and he came along with me ; said he , mr. moor , you and i have often discoursed of sir tho. gascoyn , you may do me good , if you do not , pray do me no harm . you have been often at his house . with that , i asked him if he was concerned in the plot ? for , said i , you have been often telling me , and sworn it , and deny'd it utterly , that he was no more concerned than any body else : but i did but equivocate then , for i was a papist , and if i had told a lies , or killed protestants , our priest would have forgiven me for it . and so coming to farnborn , two miles from ferry-bridge , he plucked out s. and said , i have no more mony in my pocket but this , but pray be kind and do me no harm , for you know i have deni'd it all along . mr. just. jones . hath he done so ? mr. moor. yes , several times . l. c. j. how came you to disourse with him , and question him about it ? mr. moor. because there was a general discourse in the contrey , that there were few papists but what were concerned , and guilty of the plot. l. c. j. when was that discourse ? mr. moor. the latter end of september was month , when the plot ws first discovered . and he said , sir thomas was no more concerned than the child that was to be born . l. c. j. had you any discourse with him about may last ? mr. moor. no , my lord , in august as i told you i had . l. c. j. when was the last time that he told you , sir thomas had not an hand in the plot ? mr. moor. i can't certainly remember , but i think it was in february , when i told him i would sue the bond , or have better security . it was a small time after candlemas . mr. just. jones . what are you , a protestant , or a papist ? mr. moor. a protestant , bred and born so . mr. just. pemberton . he would have sworn it no doubt at that time , for he was under an oath of secrecy . l. c. j. but you say august was the first time that he discoursed to you that sir thomas was in the plot. mr. moor. yes . then stephen thompson was called . mr. just. dolben . well , what do you know of this business ? mr. thompson . my lord , if you will give me leave to speak , i know a great deal of the unkindness betwixt sir thomas and mr. bolron . he came down to me , he was sir tho. gascoyne's steward of his coleary , and sir thomas liked not of his accompts , and turned him forth . there was a great deal of mony owing to sir thomas , and he came to sir thomas to agree about it , and he desired me to be bound with him to sir thomas : said i , mr. bolron , how shall i be secured ? said he , there is a great deal of money of which i never gave sir thomas any accompt , i will gather it in and secure all , and so sir tho. gascoyne knew nothing of it . so bonds for l. were entred into to pay l. at candlemas . so sir , when candlemas came , and he did not pay the money , i went up to him , and asked him what he would do about this money , what course he would take to satisfy ? oh! never fear , said he ; why said i , hath he any hand in the plot ? if he hath let us know it ; for he had made a great deal of his goods away , and then i thought i should not be secured , oh said he , he is a sin less of it . l. c. j. who did make away his goods ? mr. thomson . bolron did . l. c. j. when was this ? mr. thomson . candlemas last . for then i thought sir thomas might sue me for the money , and i would feign have known if sir thomas had any hand in the plot , and i pressed him much to tell me . then it passed on , and having a writ out against me , i durst not stir out my self , but i did send my man to him to know what he did intend to do about it . he told my man , brother , tell thy master he need not to fear at all ; why said my man , do you know he hath any hand in the plot ? — mr. just. dolben . that is but what your man said . mr. just. pemberton . is your man here ? mr. thompson . no. mr. just. dolben . therefore you must not urge that he said to you , 't is no evidence . mr. thomson . on thursday after i went up to him my self , and got him to go up to sir thomas , and so when he came to sir thomas , he would give him no time but a fortnight to pay the money . bolron desired but three weeks time , and he would procure him his money . so away we came down . said i , what do you intend to do in this case ? said he , if he do sue me , i will do ●…im an ill ●…urn ; and soon after he went to london , and said , he would go to sell his land at newcastle . and a while after i went out to see if he were come again , and meeting him , it was when he was going to london again to ●…arry on his designe , said i , robert bolron what do you say in this case , you are going now to leave the country , and how shall i be secured against sir thomas ? do not question it , said he , for i am to receive on the kings account l. l. c. j. upon whose account ? mr. tompson . upon the king's , concerning the taking sir tho. ga●… . mr. bolron . but i never had a farthing of it . mr. thompson . but said he , i will not take it , for another bids me threescore pounds , and i know what oats and bedloe had , and i won't aba●… a farthing of that . l. c. j. when was this ? mr. thompson . it was after he had taken him ; and on holy thnrsday he did say , if he did sue him , he would do him an ill turn . then the lord chief justice being to sit 〈◊〉 nisi prius at guild-hall , went off . william backhouse was next called . mr. just. jones . let him ask backhouse what he will. sir tho. gascoyn . i would ask him what threats he gave to his wife to swear against her conscience , and pro●…ise of l. he should gain by it . backhouse . i served the warrant to carry the witnesses before esq lowther , and esq tindall . i was charged the th of july last to help fetch the witnesses before the justices , and to take sir tho. gascoyn , i and two of my sons ; and he opened the door his own self . when we had taken him , esq lowther directed us to bring the witnesses before him , and we did so . when we came to bolron's house , his wife was sick on bed , and i said that she must go before the justice of peace to swear against sir tho. gascoyn for high treason . she said she knew nothing against sir thomas . but bolron said she must go , or he would have her drawn at the carts arse . then hamsworth was called . mr. just. jones . what will he ask him ? sir tho. gascoyn . i ask him about the threatning of his wife . hamsworth . may it please you , my lord : the same day that sir tho. gascoyn was taken , robert bolron came to his wife and told her , she must go to esq lowther to swear against sir tho. gascoin . she fell a weeping , and would not go by no means : he threatned if she would not go , he would tie her to the horse's tayl . mr. just. dolben . did he tell her what she should swear ? hamsworth . i did not hear him , only to swear against sir thomas . mr. just. dolben . what she k●…ew , was it ? hamsworth . yes ; and she said , she did not know any thing of misdemea●…our of sir thomas gascoyn touching his sacred majesty , or the church . government . mr. just. jones . art thou sure he said those words ? mr. mowbray . my lord , he is a papist . hamsworth . i am a protestant . mr. just. pemberton . how long have you been a protestant ? hamsworth . i was born so . mr. just. jones . well , thou hast added a few fine words that i dare say she never said . mr. just. pemberton . were you never a papist ? hamsworth . yes , i was . nicholas shippon was called . mr. mowbray . this man is a papist too . mr. just. dolben . do you think he is not a witness for all that ? sir t. gascoyn . what discourse he had may , the day after the race . mr. just. pemberton . well , ask him what you will , what do you say shippon . mr. bolron was with me the th day of may. mr. just. dolben . what , may last ? shippon . yes , the day after ascension-day : he came to my house about two a clock in the afternoon , and staid at my house all that afternoon while an hour after sun set before he went away . he came and brought a letter with him to carry to newcastle , and it was sent away thither . mr. just. dolben . are you sure it was the day after assension-day ? how if it should fall out to be another day ? shippon . yes , assension-day was the th of may. he came to me about two a clock . mr. serj. maynard . pray what reason had you to take notice of this ? shippon . he came and brought a letter to me that was to goto newcastle , and desired me , that my little boy might carry it to a kinsmans ▪ house of mine , for he said , he was afraid of the bailiff , and did not care for stirring out . my wife brought him some meat and drink , and he said it was better than he had at home ; and she said she was the more sorry things were no better with him . mr. just. dolben . but how came you to take notice that this fell out the th of may ? shippon . the night before i met him coming from the race , which was the th of may , and he asked me if i saw any bayliffs waiting for him ? and i said , yes . and he said it was well if he missed them . and he asked me if i saw bennet johnson ? mr. just. jones . how long was it you say he staid ? shippon . he came about two a clock ▪ and staid till an hour and half after sun-set . mr. serj. maynard . what religion are you of , friend , let us know ? mr. just. dolben . what say you to the truth of this , bolron ? mr. bolron . my lord , there is not a word of it true : for i was about two a clock at sir thomas gascoyns . they were marking some sheep , and i was there most of the afternoon . mr. just. jones . were you ever at his house at any other time to send any such letter ? mr. balron . i never sent any such letter . indeed that day i was a little of the afternoon at his house , but i staid there but half an hour ; but i was most part of the afternoon at sir tho. gascoin's seeing them mark sheep . then roger gregson was called . mr. just. jones . what do you say to him ? sir tho. gascoin ▪ let him speak his knowledge . mr. serj. maynard . i desire he may ask the question ▪ for he only generally refers to them what they know . sir thomas gascoyne . what did he say to you about august last ? gregson . my lord i will tell you , we met about august last , robert bolron and i , about a week before bartholomew day . we had some discourse , he came from london a little before that , and i asked him how sir thomas gascoyn did . mr. just. dolben . was he apprehended in august last ? gregson . yes , he was in the tower. he said , well . i asked him , how he would come off about the plot ( as they call it ) ? said he , he may come off well enough , but it will cost him a great deal of money . i then did ask , how they came to fall out ? and he said it was long of that rogue addison , brother to the priest , who had called him to accompt , or else he had never done sir thomas that injury . and i suppose that was the cause of it . and then we had some more discourse , and that discourse was this , he rides a little from me ( he was on horse-back ) and came back again , said he , i can tell you , the king was at windsor , and one of the privy council made an attempt to stab the king , and the king made his escape , and now they will believe my informations the better . mr. just. pemberton . go on . gregson . that is all i have to say . mr. just. jones . what , are you a papist ? gregson . no , i am no papist , i deny it . mr. serj. maynard . nor never was ? gregson . nor never was . then j●…mes barlowe was called . mr. serj. maynard . my lord , i conceive this man ought not to be heard , for he is under an accusation of the same crime ; and we have had two orders of council to apprehend him . mr. att. gen. there was an order of council within this fortnight , to send for him up in custody . mr. just. dolben . there is nothing upon record against him , and you may discredit his testimony , but you cannot refuse him : he is not to come upon his oath . mr. sol. gen. bolron swears too that he was at the consultation . mr. just. dolben . let us hear him what he says , we must leave it to the jury what to believe . mr. serj. maynard . they would question him about mr. bolron's cozening , which ought not be . mr. sol. gen. this man hath sworn it against him . mr. hobart . why did you not indict him , sir ? mr. serj. maynard . sir , you ought not to prate here . mr. just. dolben . come , i doubt you are a little too pragmatical . mr. just. jones . if you had any record of the indictment to shew against him , we would not examine him . mr. hobart . will you ask him any questions , sir ? sir tho. gascoyne . you know , sir , — mr. serj. maynard . that is not proper , he tells him what he knows . mr. just. pemberton . look you , sir , we did not intend that you should come here to manage all as a counsel ; it was said , he could not hear well , and so you were only to tell him what was said . sir tho. gascoyn . i would ask him what he does know concerning taking of money , and stealing from me ? mr. just. dolben . but that must not be asked . ( which hobert told him . ) sir tho. gascoyn . then you must tell me what i must ask . mr. just. pemberton . come , you have been pragmatical , sir , and made him a brief , and he cannot manage it without you . mr. serj. maynard . did you write this brief ? ( meaning a brief in sir tho ▪ gascoyns hand . ) mr. hobart . no , and 't please you , sir. then mr. ravenscroft offered to speak what this witness had told him . mr. just. dolben . look you , mr. ravenscroft , if what he says tend any thing to this business , that sir tho. gascoyn comes to know of his stealing , and then turn'd him out of his service , it is material ; but if you come to tell a story here of another man's knowledge , we can't spend our time so . mr. ravenscroft . it was known but last night to me ; and if you will not let me tell you what it is , how should you know it ? mris ravenscroft . he is a chief witness for my grandfather , and i desire he may be heard , for he discovered it but last night to my husband . mr. just. dolben . if it tend any thing to this business , that sir thomas turn'd him out of doors , and therefore this man bears him an ill will. mr. just. pemberton . we had as good hear mr. ravenscroft however ; but pray , sir , make your story short . mr. ravenscroft . he came to me and said these words , i have kept a secret a long while , in which i have done very ill , — mr. just. pemberton . then it does not tend at all to this affair ; for you must not come to tell a story out of anothers man's mouth . mr. just. dolben . pray sit still , sir , and be quiet . mr. just. jones . indeed you must be satisfied . mr. just. pemberton . if you have any other witnesses , call them , and do not spend our time . mr. just. jones . for the jury must be told that 't is no evidence coming out of another man's mouth . mr. just. dolben . 't is as if a man should come and say , i can say something for sir thomas gascoyn , when i know nothing but what another man told me . mr. just. jones . ask sir thomas if he would have this barlow examined ? sir thomas gascoyne . yes . mr. just. pemberton . then what questions will you ask him ? sir tho. gascoyn . what conspiracy was had to take away a great deal of money from me , and how he conceal'd it because he would not do him a mischief . mr. just. dolben . what is that to sir thomas's life ? mr. ravenscroft . i cannot tell you by bare assertion , but if you will hear what i have to say , do . last night , late at night , about nine a clock , barlow came to me , says he , mr. ravenscroft — mr. just. dolben . come , don't tell us the preamble , but the story . mr. ravenscroft . said he , i have a thing that sticks upon my thoughts , which i doubt may endanger sir thomas's life . mr. just. dolben . well , was it about taking money ? mr. ravenscroft . said he , if i am silent ▪ i doubt it will cost sir thomas his life . then i asked him what it was ? says he , mr. mowbray , who is a witness in this court , and i , did , just a little before his going away , combine , or rather he did ●…educe me — mr. just. pemberton . was it about money ? mr ravenscroft . money is in the case . mr. just. dolben . he did conspire , what to do ? mr. ravenscroft . if you will hear me , i will tell you . mr. just. jones . pray do it quickly then . mr. ravenscroft . did combine to wrong sir thomas of a great sum of money ; and whereas i held my tongue , thinking not to spill his blood , i see now if i do not tell the truth , i shall make good his credit , and so endanger sir thomas's life . mr. just. dolben . well , i 'le ask you , or any man alive now ; two men combine to rob sir thomas whether one man be a competent witness against the credit of the other witness ? he makes himself a rogue by combining , and you have made him a knave by his own confession . mr. ravenscroft . i may perhaps err in that word ; he did not say , combine , but the other seduced him . mr. just. dolben . you have told a story to no purpose . mr. just. pemberton . you think it a fine thing to be a catholick , and to appear brisk for them . mr. ravenscroft . who says i am a catholick ? then george dixon appeared . sir tho. gascoyn . what do you know of any conspiracy of these people against me ? dixon : my lord , i was at william batley's in august last in the morning at ten a clock , and mr. bolron and mr. mowbray came in , and called for a flaggon of drink , and when it was brought , they fell into a discourse together concerning sir thomas gascoyn and my lady tempest . says mr. mowbray , i know nothing of sir thomas but that he is a very honest man. mr. serj. maynard . he was not bound to tell you what he knew . mr. just. jones . when was this , in august last ? dixon . yes ; but , said he , if i knew any thing against my lady tempest i would discover it , for i would hang her if i could . and they sat●… down at mr. batley's house to consult what they should do . mr. just , pemberton . before you ? dixon . yes , i heard every word . mr. just. jones . and what did they say ? dixon . they said they would meet at mr. bolron's house , and if they could compleat their business they should be very well gratified . mr. just. dolben . against whom ? dixon . against my lady , and sir thomas . mr. just. dolben . but you say , mowbray said he knew nothing against sir thomas gascoyne ? dixon . no ; he said , he knew no hurt by them . mr. just. dolben . how come they to say they would contrive their business ? mr. mowbray . what man is that , mr. bolron ? mr. bolron . i know him not , nor ever held any such discourse . mr. mowbray . nor i. mr. just. jones . how far do you live off one from another ? dixon . i live at leeds , mr. mowbray knows me . mr. mowbray . i don't know that ever i saw you . dixon . he hath drunk with me . mr. mowbray . i know him not , nor where he dwells . mr. just dolben . what trade are you of ? dixon . a cloth-dresser by trade , but i keep a publick house . mr. just. dolben . this discourse was at leeds , was it not ? dixon . yes . mr. just. dolben . they say both , they do not know you , nay they sware it . and 't is very like you were but very little acquainted , would they let you hear them talk thus ? dixon . we were as well acquainted as can be , but that he will deny it . mr. att. gen. pray what religion are you of ? dixon . a protestant . mr. att. gen. how long have you been so ? dixon . all the days of my life . mr. att. gen. i can't but wonder at the strangeness of your acquaintance . mr. mowbray . my lord , i have not drunk at that place which is near the old church at leeds , not this two years . then william batley was called . batley . and if it like your honour , these two gent. mr. bolron and mr. mowbray , came to my house , and called for a pot of drink . mr. att. gen. do you not know this man neither ? mr. mowbray . yes , i do , but i was never three times in his company in my life . batley . i filled them a flaggon of ale , and when i had done i left them . they began to discourse of the plot , and sir tho. gascoyne ; and mr. bolron . — mr. just. dolben . at your house , where is your house ? batley . my house is near the old church at leeds . mr. just. dolben . is that the same place the other man speaks of ? batley . yes . says mr. bolron to him , thou knowest that sir tho. gascoyne hath been very severe against thee and me , and now here is an opportunity offered us to take a revenge upon sir tho. gascoyne : mowbray replyed again , as for sir thomas , he is a very honest man , and i know no hurt by him ; but as to my lady tempest , if i knew any thing against her i would hang her , for i would discover it . but thou knowest , says bolron , that sir thomas sues and troubles me , and if i do not make somewhat out against him , he will ruine me , and it must be done by two witnesses . to which mr. mowbray answered again , how shall we bring this business about ? if thou wilt but come to my house , said he , i will put thee in a way to contrive it , and we shall have a considerable reward . and mowbray told him he would come to him such a day . mr. just. dolben . was that man that went out last , with you all the time they spake ? dixon . yes . mr. just. dolben . he does not say half so much as you do . mr. just. pemberton . were you in the room ? batley . no , i was at the stairs head . mr. just. pemberton . what did you stand there for ? batley . i hearing them discoursing of sir tho. gascoyne , hearked what they did say . mr. just. dolben . the other man said he was in the room with them ; were you in the room ? batley . i stood upon the stairs . mr. just. jones . were you in their company at all that day ? batley . yes , my lord , i carried up a flagon of ale. mr. just. jones . was the door left open ? batley . yes . mr. just. dolben . would any men talk in such a place as this , that all the world may hear them , when they are contriving to take away a man's life ? mr. just. pemberton . you were in the same room , dixon , were you not ? dixon . they were at the grice head , and we at the foot . mr. just. jones . but the other says , he was at the top of the stairs , the head of the stairs . dixon . we were at the stairs foot , and they were in the room . batley . the table they sate at , joined just upon the head of the stairs . mr. just. jones . did you hear them down to the stairs foot ? dixon . we did stand there to hear them discourse . mr. just. dolben . could you see them where you were ? dixon . yes , as fair as i see you . mr. just. dolben . could they see you ? batley . no , they could not . dixon . yes , if they had looked down . mr. just. dolben . why then i ask you , do you think , if you stood in so open a place to be seen , and they had seen you , can you imagine that they would talk so about taking away sir thomas gascoine's life ? batley . i do imagine they did not know i was there , nor believe any one heard or saw . mr. just. pemberton . do you know how they came there ? batley . they said they came out of leeds , and said , one mr. legat was to come that way , who they were to speak with . mr. just. jones . i ask you , if you were in the room under them ? batley . and if it like your lordship , i stood at the stair's foot . mr. just. jones . just now you said it was the stairs head . mr. just. pemberton . did you say any thing to them about this ? batley . no , i did not open my lips to them about it , but i told it to a friend about three or four weeks after . mr. just. jones . to whom ? batley . to a neighbour of mine : i suppose it was told mr. babbington . mr. just. dolben . what say you , mr. babbington ? how came you to know of this ? mr. babbington . when the commissioners of oyer and terminer were sitting at leeds , there was one came and told me , george dixon could afford me something that would be very advantageous for the benefit of sir thomas gascoyn . mr. just. dolben . who was that man ? mr. babbington . bennet johnson , or francis johnson . mr. just. dolben . was that the man you spoke to ? batley . no , i spoke it to a smith , one richard loftus . mr. babbington . i 'le tell you another person i heard it from , that was mr. bayliff of leeds . mr. just. pemberton . well , was this the common discourse of leeds ? mr. just. dolben . he says so . was it then presently ? mr. babbington . the bayliff did not tell me so suddenly . mr. just. dolben . would it not have been to your purpose to have brought the bayliff here ? mr. babbington . it was after the commission of oyer and terminer that i had it from him , which was in october . mr. bolron . in the time of august i was not at leeds , i was in northumberland searching for priests , and in the bishoprick of durham , all but a little of the first of it . then mrs. jefferson was called . mr. just. pemberton . what do you ask her ? sir tho. gascoyne . pray be pleased to speak to the conspiracy and combination against me . mr. just. jones . whose combination ? come , mistris , what do you know ? jefferson . i asked mr. mowbray one time , what he knew concerning sir thomas gascoyne ? and he said , he knew nothing , but sir thomas was a very honest gentleman for what he knew , and the best friend he had . mr. just. jones . is that all you know ? jefferson . he thought he was wrongfully accused . mr. just. pemberton . when was this ? was this after the time he was accused by bolron ? jefferson . it may be it might be , i think it was in august . mr. just. jones . in august las●… ? jefferson . yes . mr. just. dolben . but you must needs know ( it was the talk of the country ) when sir thomas gascoyne was sent for up to town ; was it after that time ? jefferson . yes , i think it was . mr. just. jones . then you say , you heard mowbray say that sir 〈◊〉 . gascoyne was an honest gentleman , and he could say nothing against him . jefferson . yes , ask him else . then matthias higgringil was called . mr. just. dolben . was he one at the meeting ? mr. bolron . he was at the sealing the collusive conveyance . mr. just. jones . this higgringil is a protestant , is he not ? mr. bolron . i know not , i think so . mr. just. dolben . come , sir , what say you in this matter ? higgringil . to whom ? mr. just. dolben . what can you say to the business about sir tho gascoyne ? sir tho. gascoyn . speak to the threatnings to take away my life . higgringil . i have nothing to say to bolron ; but mowbray on septemb. last , being at an alehouse , mr. legat and he were together , consulting how to disgrace sir thomas , and take away his life ; and he calls me out to speak with me : now , said he , i shall match them , for they have done what they could to disgrace me . mr. just. jones . how did he mean that ? higgringil . i suppose he had taken away some money and gold , and they spoke of it , and that was to disgrace him . mr. just. dolben . was it charged upon him ? higgringil . it was suspected always he had taken it away . mr. just. dolben . but was there any such thing talked of in the country ? mr. just. jones . what did he say to you ? higgringil . he said , they did what they could to disgrace him , and take away his life , and he would requite them . mr. just. pemberton . who they ? higgringil . sir thomas gascoyne , and my lady tempest . mr. just. pemberton . why ? did sir thomas ●…dict him ? higgringil . no ; but the noise was about the country . mr. just. dolben . when was this ? in september last ? higgringil . yes . mr. just. dolben . what profession are you of , higgringil ? higgringil . an husbandman , i graze , and i farm a farm. mr. just. dolben . you know this man , do you not , mr. mowbray ? mr. mowbray . yes ; sir thomas employs him , he is a kind of collector to him . mr. ravenscroft . he is no papist . then francis johnson appeared . mr. just. dolben . well , come , what do you know ? johnson . he hath sustained great losses by him . mr. just. dolben . he ! who ? johnson . sir thomas gascoyne . mr. just. dolben . by whom ? johnson . by mr. bolron . mr. just. dolben . what loss hath he received ? johnson . the very first month he entred , he wronged him of three pound . mr. just. jones . how do you know that ? johnson . i cast up the accompt my self . mr. just. jones . but he kept him two years after that ? johnson . yes , he did . mr. just. jones . is this all you have to say ? johnson . yes . mr. bolron . my lord , i lost three pounds the first three weeks , and sir thomas forgave me it ; i don't deny it . mr. just. dolben . do you know of any malice between them , and that he said he would do him any mischief ? johnson . no. then mr. pebles clerk of the peace in the county of york was called . sir tho. gascoyn . i would desire you to speak of the carriage of mr. bolron to you , sir , what you know . mr. pebles . my lord , i was in york last assizes , and mr. bolron came to me into a room , where i was with some gentlemen , and asked me how i did ? and asked me if i did not know him ? i told him i did not remember him ; said he , i am the the prosecutor against sir tho. gascoyne . so when he was sat down , after a little while , he desired to discourse with me , and asked me if a man was indicted as a traytor whether it were fit to pay him money ? i owe , said he , sir tho. gascoyne money , and i would know whether it be fit to pay it to him ? said i , i think you may safely pay him his money before he be convicted , but then 't is the king's in my opinion . nay , said bol. he is sure to be convicted . thensaid i , i think it not safe to pay it therefore i leave that to your own discretion whether you will or no. alittle after he desired to have my opinion concerning the two judges that came our circuit , for i am might●…ly abused by them , said he , they will not at all give me audience ; i came from the king and council , and they slight me , will not hear me speak . said i , i believe if you will go to them , they will hear you . i went to speak with them , and they sent some of their servants out to know what i would say to them ; but i have wr●… a letter to them , to tell them my mind , but said i , i can't believe , that any one will presume to carry such a letter , but for that i will leave it to you . so i came away from him , and after he follows me out , and desires to speak with me again ; said he , i have something against you concerning this business in hand , i can do you a prejudice if i will. said i , god bless me , i know nothing of it , i do not at all intend to court your favour , i have no mind at all to that . said he , i will not do it ; and he spoke as if he had no desire to do it ; i would not court him , but came away and left him ; he followed me to the street again , and said , will you help to apprehend a traytor ? who is it ? said i : it is a gentlewoman , said he , a woman greatly concerned in the plot , you may apprehend her in the street , and 't is the best time . now the street was full , and i thought it a little unseasonable : so he looked after me , but i never offered to go from him ; but said i , was she in the plot ? yes , said he , she was to be the first lady mayoress o●… york after the plot took effect , and the king was killed ; but he did not lay hold upon her . so i parted with her , then said he , i can have no respect ; said i , i have nothing to do with you , i am clerk of the peace of the west riding in this county , and am always ready to do my duty there . so away i went and left him . the next news i heard , was , he had procured a warrant of the council against me , and he brings the warrant to a justice of peace , and that justice of peace told him there would be several justices of peace at leeds within two or three days after , and then they would examine the business ; i chanced to be in a room with some gentlemen , not knowing of the warrant that was out against me , and this gentleman that was the justice of peace called me into another room , and told me of this business : admired at it , and told him i did know nothing of it , nor that i had disobliged him , unless it was because i did not give him the complement and ceremony of my hat , nor give him money , neither did i know what information he had procured that warrant upon . he told me mr. mowbray and mr. bolron were in town . so i desired him to send for the other justices into the room , where he acquainted them with the matter , and said he , if you will , we will examine it to night ; so they sent notice to mr. mowbray and mr. bolron , that they would examine the business that night at a clock , and they came , and he was asked what he had to say against me ? he said , i had taken money for keeping a man from taking the oath of allegience , and they had witnesses to prove it . — mr. serj. maynard . must he be here admitted to make his own defence ? mr. just. dolben . brother , let him go on . mr. pebles . the witness was call'd upon , and they asked him to that point , and he denyed absolutely upon his oath that he gave me any money , and also swore he had taken the oath when it was tendred to him . then , my lord , there was one mr. dunford an attorney , was spoken of as if he could prove something , but he was miles off , and they could not send for him , and so i begg'd they would appoint another time for hearing when he could be there : they appointed munday following , and ordered me to attend , and one of the justices of the peace undertook to give dunford notice . accordingly i came there , but there was no mr. bolron , nor mr. mowbray , but i desired that mr. dunford might be examined upon his oath , and they did take his information in writing , and he swore he knew nothing of it , neither did he ever give me money upon any such accompt . mr. just. dolben . you were not by when it was sworn ? mr. pebles . i saw the examination taken in writing . mr. just. pemberton . and you were discharged ? mr. pebles . yes , for he could not make out any thing at all . mr. just. pemberton . it was well for you he could not make it out . m. pebles . they said they could prove it , and vouched these two persons , but both denied it upon their oaths . mr. just. dolben . is that all you know ? mr. pebles . that is all i can say in particular ; i have not a mind to speak against him in general , because he is the king's evidence . mr. just. dolben . you can say nothing of his repute ? mr. just. pemberton . you were a stranger to him , you did not know him . sir tho. gascoyn . i desire he may speak what reputation he hath among the justices . mr. pebles . i have no mind to reflect on the king's evidence , and if i did , it would seem as if i should speak in malice : he hath done me wrong but i never did him any . mr. just. jones . but what is his reputation generally ? mr. pebles . truly 't is not very good in the country . mr. just. jones . among whom ? mr. pebles . the grand jury and the gentlemen of the country . mr. just. jones . is it a common fame in the country ? mr. pebles . most people discourse ill of him . mr. just. dolben . did he say he did not speak with the judges ? mr. bolron . no my lord i did not . mr. just. dolben . you did speak with us , indeed you would have had us allowed you a guard for your safety , which we could not do . mr. bolron . whereas he says i gave in a wrong information , this same hunt when he came before them confessed he gave him s. but he would not swear for what it was . mr. serg. maynard . 't is nothing to the purpose one thing or other that he hath said . mr. just. dolben . 't is altogether uncertain ; no body knows what to make of it . then hardwicke was called . sr. tho. gascoyne . do you speak what threats bolron hath used to his wife to swear against me . hardwicke . when the pursivants came up to barmbow , the chief constable ordered me to assist mr. bolron in execution of the warrant , and to carry the witnesses before a justice . we went to robert bolron's house to take the witnesses , and there was his wife , his brother , and his sister . we were to carry them before a justice and they refused to go , his wife pretended to be sick and could not go , and they begg'd of us to excuse them . mr. just. dolben . who do you call they ? hardwicke . his wife , his brother and his sister : bolron told them they must go , and william backhouse and i ordered them by all means to go along with us , i suppose it was to testifie what he had sworn . mr. just. jones . what were they to do , did he tell them ? hardwicke . they were to go to tell what his testimony was above , as well as i understood the discourse . mr. just. dolben . we have had two persons to this purpose before . they say he would have his wife go , and she refused to go , and cryed ; but they do neither of them say he pressed her to speak anything more than she knew or against her knowledge . mr. just. pemberton . no , one of the witnesses said , he told her it was to ●…peak her knowledge . then william clow was examined . mr. just. dolben . come what say you ? clow. the th . of may last i had a writ against bolron , and my man arrested him and brought him to my house . mr. just. dolben . at whose suit ? clow. at the suit of one hickringil that was servant to sir thoma●… , and there i had him two days and would not carry him to the gaol , for he begged of me i would not ; but then i told him i would keep him no longer there , for he had no money for lodging and dyet ; but he begged so hard of me , that i would but tarry till hickringill came , and then he did not care what they did with him : for he would make sir thomas pay hickringill his debt that he owed him , or he would play him such a trick as he little dream'd of . mr. just. dolben . when was this ? clow. the th . or th . of may last or thereabouts . mr. just. dolben . may last ? clow. yes . and so hickringill came over , and they did agree , and he gave him a lease of an house he lived in , and hickringill took the charge of both the debts upon him . then hobart stood up . sr. tho. gascoyne . speak whether he pretended he writ a letter to the duke of monmoth from leeds . mr. hobart . my lord i have nothing to say to that . mr. just. jones . what can you say then ? mr. hobart . all i can say is to the summes of money returned to town . mr. just. dolben . he did not mention that . mr. hobart . if you please to let me declare what i know about the returning of the money . mr. just. pemberton . pray speak what you know of your own knowledge . mr. hobart . for most of it i know of the payment of it , and to whom , l. there was paid to mr. trumbal about the purchase , it was paid at mr. mawson's ; i was a witness to the deed , and to the receipt . mr. att. gen. that is some , but what to the rest ? mr. hobart . l. was payed to a client of mine , l. was paid to one widow cawson that was upon bond. mr. just. dolben . how much was paid to mr. corker ? mr. hobart . several sums , above l. paid to corker in years time . mr. just. pemberton . nay in years time . mr. hobart . this l. and l. before i drew the receipt for , and commonly he ordered me when mr. corker came for it , that i should have a receipt from mrs. mary appleby , and it came back signed by her , to whom sir thomas was guardian . mr. just. dolben . and was all this money paid to corker upon the account of this appleby ? mr. hobart . it was mentioned in the receipt . mr. just. dolben . how much was she to have by the year ? mr. hobart . l. by the year or two sometimes . mr. just. dolben . how came she to have l. in years ? mr. hobart . my lord , i will tell you , for that there was a great arrear upon a suit between sir thomas and mr. appleby , this mrs. applebys father ; and upon the hearing of the cause my lord keeper bridgman was pleased to order that this money should be paid to s●… . thomas for the use of the daughters , l. a year , that is l. a piece . and there was an arrear for or years during the suit , about or l. it was : i drew receipt for it , and sir thomas being pressed for the money by mrs. appleby who went beyond sea , he sent to corker to get the money returned to her . mr. just. dolben . ay but you dance about the bush , was there an arrear of l. mr. hobart . for or years , and mrs. ravenscroft was one of the sisters , her part was paid when she was married , but this gentlewomans was paid beyond sea . mr. just. dolben . was the arrears from sir thomas to the gentlewoman beyond sea ? mr. hobart . yes . mr. just. dolben . are you sure there was ? mr. hobart . yes , sir thomas told me so . mr. just. pemberton . who was to pay this mony ? mr. hobart . mr. appleby by order of my lord keeper . mr. justice jones . sir thomas was guardian , was the estate in yorkshire ? mr. hobart . it did arise out of rents there . then one culliford was called . mr. just. dolben . what say you ? what do you know of this matter ? culliford . this gentleman lodged at such a time at my house , the th . of june . he was at my house seven weeks , and he was gone weeks , and returned again ; he was weeks away . mr. just. jones . what gentleman was this ? culliford . mr. mowbray . mr. just. dolben . what is that to the purpose ? mr. just. jones . how do you apply that ? mr. hobart . mr. mowbray hath said he sent a letter to the duke of monmouth . mr. just. dolben . there hath been no mention made of any such thing . have you any more witnesses ▪ mr. hobart . no. mr. just. dolben . then ask sir thomas what he hath to say for himself . mr. hobart . have you any thing to say to the court for your self . sir. tho. gascoyne . no i referr my self to the judgement of the court. then a woman witness appeared . sr. tho. gascoyne . what do you know concerning mowbray , whether he was suspected of stealing when he was at my house ? witness . yes , he was , my lord , he would have given me l. to have gone away , and he did intend to have clapped me in prison , and laid it all upon me . mr. just. dolben . how do you know that ? witness . he told me so . mr. mowbray . this is a common woman and not to be believed . mr. serg. maynard . my lord , we will reply but one short thing in mat●…er of evidence . much of this that hath been given by the desendant hath been to take off the credit of the witnesses , and for bolron they would suggest that he hath been dishonest to sir thomas , but when sir thomas himself was examined to that point before the council , he said he found him honest , but only accounted him a fool. mr. just. dolben . that is proper for you to do now brother . mr. serg. maynard . and sir thomas being examined about rushton , he said he did not know such an one , and then afterwards he did say he knew one of that name . here is sir john nicholas the clerk of the council . ( who was sworn . ) mr. att. gen. pray sir , do you know what sir thomas gascoyne said at the council table . sir john nicholas . he was asked whether he knew bolron , he said he knew him very well , he had been his servant till within this twelve-month or something more , but for his honesty he had nothing to say to it , till of late that he had not behaved himself so well in giving informations against him . but he did find him now what he did always take him to be , a fool. mr. just. dolben . what did he say about rushton ? sir john nicholas . at first he did say he did not know rushton the priest , but after it was brought to his memory he ●…aid he knew one of that name . mr. att. gen. 't is taken down in the minutes , sir john look upon them . sir john nicholas . he denied at first that he knew rushton the priest , and afterwards the next time he came to the council , he said he did deny it , because he was afraid of an old law against harbouring of priests . mr. att. gen. if your lordship please we will now trouble you with a witness or two in answer to what backhouse and hardwicke have said as to bolron's threatning of his wife . we will call the wife to give you an accompt of that . mr. just. dolben . they do not charge him that they pressed her to swear falsly . mr. just. pemberton . that does not at all touch upon the witness . mr. att. gen. if the court be satisfied we will trouble you with that no further . mr. just. jones . i believe backhouse did say , that this bolron would have his wife go before the justice of peace , she said she knew nothing at all , yet he would have her go and testifie her knowledge , and if she would not , he would have her dragged at the horses tail . mr. att. gen. i think 't is necessary to call a witness or two to that . first to call her herself . ( then mrs. bolron was sworn . ) mr. att. gen. what did y●…ur husband threaten you to make you swear against sir tho. gascoyne ? mr. just. dolben . now you are upon your oath speak the truth . mrs. bolron . no , never in his life did he threaten me upon any such accompt . mr. just. dolben . do you remember when the constable came down to have you go before esquire lowther ? mrs. bolron . yes , my lord. mr. just. dolben . how chance you did not go with him ? mrs. bolron . i was unwilling to go then , because i could say little to the purpose . mr. just. dolben . did he use any threats to you to make you swear against sir thomas ? mrs. bolron . no my lord , but he would have me go , whether i said any thing or no. mr. just. dolben . did he ever desire you to speak any thing you did not know ? mrs. bolron . no , my lord , never in his life . mr. att. gen. my lord , mr. bolron desires to have this woman his grand-mother be asked whether he threatned his wife ? ( and she was sworn . ) mr. sol. gen. she was by at that time . mr. just. dolben . were you by at that time when the constable came to carry the witnesses before mr. lowther ? mrs. bolron senior . yes . mr. just. dolben . heark you , did not you see the woman that went over there cry , and say she was unwilling to go ? mrs. bolron sen. her husband said she should go , tho' she said nothing . mr. justice dolben . but her husband did not press her to say any thing but what was truth ? mrs. bolron sen. no indeed did he not . mr. just. pemberton . and did not seem to stick before . mr. attorney general . what can you say to this honest man here your son ? mr. just. dolben . i 'le warrant she will say he is honest still . mr. att. gen. but here are a company of people would make him a dishonest man. mrs. bolron sen. sir thomas gascoyne said he was as truthful a servant as ever he had in his life . mr. just. dolben . did you hear him say so ? mrs. bolron sen. i heard him say so in his own chamber . mr. just. dolben . when ? mrs. bolron sen. after he was married : and besides sir thomas did say he would do any thing he could for him , in relation he had been a true servant to him . mr. just. dolben . call mr. phiswicke again . ( who appeared . ) look you sir , you are a man that i see have been trusted by all the family of the gascoynes , and you know in what reputation he was . mr. phiswicke . sir , while i was his fellow-servant i knew no ill by him . mr. just. dolben . was he accompted an honest man ? mr. phiswicke . i can say nothing to the contrary . mr. serg. maynard . then my lord to conclude i desire to speak a word . on the one side here is an ancient gentlemans life in question , and that or his death are to be the issue of this cause ; on the other side here is the discovery of a plot upon which all our lives , our religion , and the life of our king depend . it did require your patience , and you have yielded it . where lyes the question ? if these witnesses that have been examined be believed , there is no question but he is highly guilty of the plot : the witness tells you , when there was no talk of the plot , there was a preparation of a false and fraudulent conveyance to be drawn by advice of counsel , and why was this made ? lest he should for●…it his estate . this is proved in the beginning . you find next a meeting of the priests , and there what they did , does not concern this gentleman at the bar till he took notice of it , and then joyned in it , and approved of it , and did declare it was a worthy plot , a meritorious plot for the good of the church , and at last particularly he would give l. to bolron to destroy the king and murder him . the t'other witness agrees with him , and what is said against all this ? they have called and examined i think or witnesses , three touching the threatning of his wife , but that salls out to be nothing ; two ale-house-keepers that stood at the bottom of the stairs and over-heard their discourse ; but you have all heard how they contradicted one another , they ▪ had not agreed well enough together on their story . all that the rest do is meant thus , and so far they make something of it , that there should be a debt due from this bolron to this gentleman , and so it were some contrivance as if he would do it by way of revenge ; it does fall out many times that men do quarrel , but this is a business of anothe●… nature . they say that he should threaten he would serve him a trick , or there were some such words ; but under favour , the question is of the truth of his testimony ; now it is not likely , that they knew what his testimony would be , and there is nothing against the other witness that concurrs with him , but the fellows that were upon the stairs , that talk one of one part of the stairs and the other of the other . the matter is clearly whethe rthe witnesses be to be believed , or whether there be any thing sufficient offered to take off their testimony . you will be pleased to observe as to what was spoken about the money and the nunnery , we brought you a letter from the priest who was mentioned to be one of them at the meeting pracid , that writes and dates his letter from the place the witness speaks of , and there you will observe that in one of the letters'tis expressed if england be converted , ( there is the main of the plot ) for all i suppose goes to that purpose , pray who thought of england's conversion at that time ? what led them into that but a consciousness of a design to convert england ? my lord , another piece of a letter there is concerning the oath of allegiance , you have heard it read , and every body knows what the meaning of it is , it is the engine of the jesuites that if they can but draw men off from their fidelity to the king , whereof there is no testimony so great as the oath of allegiance , they need not use so much of eqaivocation ; but that is an abominable thing , and not to be endured to go take off the strength of that oath that hath been taken by men more honest than the rest , and not suffering the rest to take it at all : and it is a damnable thing that they should assert the king is an heretick , and the pope has deposed him , therefore it is meritorious to kill him : but you have heard the evidence fully , and it needs no aggravation . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i think the evidence hath been already repeated by mr. serg. maynard , and my lord , i think there is nothing in this case , but only the credit of the witnesses , for if they be to be believed , there is an evidence as full as can be . i know your lordships observes how it is introduced , how they are fortified in some circumstances , which sir thomas did at first deny . they tell you that he had a pious intent to found a nunnery , and did proceed so far as to make a settlement , this was denyed by sir tho. gascoyne , but hath been verified , and made out by his own books and letters writ to him , which were found in his own custody . this did sir thomas gascoyne do with an expectation of a sudden change , for the letters do declare , that england was to be converted as they called it , and therefore they had settled their matters in order , and they thought fit to insert that proviso in the settlement , that if england should be converted then , the money was to be disposed so and so . but your lordship likewise observes , and you , gentlemen of the jury , what other correspondence sir t. gascoyne had with one cornwallis or pracid a priest. he receives a letter which shews you what the principles of all the catholicks are , how far they have proceeded to take away even the oath of allegiance , and the consequence of that how far it will go , when they think themselves obliged in conscience to cast off fidelity to their prince , and what mischiefs may ensue no man knows , but we may in part imagine . you have already had sufficient discovery to make out the use of this instilled principle , and that is the design to kill the king , for this you hear what the evidence say . mr. bolron one ▪ of them is sent to the priest to be instructed by him ; and by him was chid for offering to go against their principles to take the oath , and told him he was damn'd for so doing . and presently after he was examined by sir tho. gascoyne upon some discourse with him what rushton had said , who had moved him likewise to kill the king as he says . sir tho. gascoyne knew to what purpose he sent him thither , not only to renounce the oath of allegiance ▪ but to carry on the design which he had in hand , and did introduce by laying aside the oath , and tells him he must engage in the design to kill the king. he examines him what the other had spoke to him of , and he said he knew it was more than bare chiding of him for taking the oath of allegiance , and he told him for his better encouragement to go on , that if he would undertake he should have l. and this is the sum of bolron's evidence as to sir tho. gascoyne . what then says mowbray the second witness , he was so faithful a servant and so diligent , that he was imployed by rushton the confessor to attend him at the altar , and be in service immediate about him , and he being by that means so dear to him waited upon him in his chamber , and was privy to all the consultations held there . and he gives you an accompt how long this plot hath been in agitation , for they had been discoursing a good while of it ; and resolved it should be done if not by fair means , by foul , and tells you plainly by killing the king. and that he heard sir thomas gascoyne himself declare that it was a meritorious act to kill the king , and that as before he had the oath of secrecy given him by rushton , so he did declare ( which mowbray standing at the door heard ) that he would never swerve from the oath , but he would assist to the utmost of his power , and they that were with him said they would stand by it with their lives and fortunes ; and when my lady tempest understood he was there and was iealous of him , she bid him go down and entertain the guests below stairs . so here is an evidence from two witnesses as full as can be in any case , that sir tho. gascoyne was privy to the conspiracy , and himself a partaker of it to kill the king. all that hath been said against them is to vilifie their reputation . as to mowbray i hear but little , onlythere are two witnesses that touch him , and indeed if these winesses were to be believed , they say a great deal , that is , they were in an alehouse together and heard them conspire to take awaythe life of sir tho. gascoyne . indeed mowbray said , for sir tho. gascoyne i know nothing but that he is a very honest gentleman , but for my lady tempest if i could hang her i would . that they should hear them contrive this together and conspire how they should take away the lives of this gentleman and the others . indeed if these men say true 't is a great matter to take off the credit of their testimony , but you heard gentlemen how they did vary : for the one said as i apprehended at first he was in the room , afterwards he was below stairs . ask the one could you hear them ? yes , could you see them ? no ; said the other , yes . so that they were not well provided as to that matter , nor had they consulted that point well where they should agree to stand to overhear the matter . now if that be likely they should in the presence of two persons whom they did not know , and one of them they never saw , but in the court , declare and discourse of such a matter as this for the taking away the life of sir thomas gascoyne , then we have nothing to say to them , we must leave the credit of that to you , you will observe their variety in the story , and the improbability of the thing . but then for mr. bolron the evidence against him is , that he is a very dishonest man , and that this is all out of malice to sir thomas gascoyne , because he would sue him upon his bonds . you observe how he does behave himself under that prosecution , all that he hath he is willing to part with for payment of his debt , he makes over his estate for satisfaction and security , and does as much as an honest man can do : all he hath shall lie at stake , and as for sir thomas gascoyne himself he had no such opinion of him in poin●… of dishonesty , for he declared he lived in his service without exception , and said before the council he knew nothing of dishonesty by him , but only this information , and now he found him to be ( what he always thought ) a great fool . now whether he thought him a fool for telling this story or what else , you may explain the meaning of his expression . but as for any thing of dishonesty there is nothing against mr. bolron . he was in debt 't is true , but what he had lay at stake for the payment of it , and as far as it would go sir thomas might take it ; but that for malice he should come to swear against him , there is nothing clearly made out . one witness says indeed , that he should say , does sir thomas gascoyne intend to sue me , then i will do what i did not intend to ; do whether that be a speech of malice or no , or rather does confirm the truth of his evidence , is left to your consideration . it shews rather there was something that he had in his power to do before any prosecution from sir tho. gascoyne , or any occasion of his malice against him : it hath not the necessary import of a malicious speech , that he did intend not to do such a thing , and because he was sued did do it ; that therefore is only malice and no truth . for the other matter that is said against him , that he should endeavour to suborn his wife to swear falsly , that was by no means fully proved ; but rather that matter hath been sufficiently cleared , that though she said she knew nothing , yet he would have her go , though she said nothing , and you hear what the evidence hath been for mr. bolron , that he never did press her to swear falsly , nor threaten her if she would not , but only desired her to declare her knowledge if she knew anything ▪ the truth and nothing but the truth . these are all the objections made against the credit of the witnesses , and i think if their credit do stand you cannot have a clearer . evidence to convict any one than hath been given you to day , but that we leave to you ; and submit these objections whether they have any weight in them , and whether they have not been fully answered . mr. serg. maynard . and our evidence is given in all upon oath , and their's is not . mr. just. jones . gentlemen you of the jury , the prisoner at the b●… stands indicted for high treason , and for high treason of the highest nature , for conspiring to take away the life of the king and for endeavouring to change the religion , the protestant religion into popery , that is , contriving to extirpate the religion of protestantism here , and introduce popery instead of it , and certainly greater crimes than these no man can be accused of . there have been produced on the behalf of the king two witnesses mr. bolron , and mr. mowbray , both of them servants to sir thomas gascoyne the prisoner , and therefore might very possibly and probably enough be privy to all they have said , andtestified in this case . it does appear by them both , that sir thomas gascoyne was a very early man in the plot ( if they say true ) we heard nothing of it till the long vacation ( ) but it seems sir thomas gascoyne was a plotter and conspirator in the year ( ) or ( ) and that he might be able to do this somewhat more safely , he contrives how he might convey away his estate to prevent the forfeiture , and he makes an assurance of it to sir william ingleby colourably as the witnesses swear for l. and it does appear likewise as to the introduction of the popish religion here , they began to settle a nunnery , and it was fit to do so against england should be converted ▪ first in such a place , but if it happened england were converted , then to be removed to another place . there was at this nunnery appointed an abbess , an assistant and several nuns , and sir thomas gascoyne so well knew of this , that one of them that was appointed to be a nun at the time of her taking horse , he said to her , there goes an old maid and a young nun. and there are letters come from that very nunnery and from the priest that was appointed to attend them as confessor , which have been read to you ; and there is another preparation thought necessary to introduce this plot , and that is , that all papists might be seduced into an opinion that it was a dangerous thing to take the oath of allegiance , and that it was a dam●…able 〈◊〉 . for this purpose letters came from the doctors at sorbonne , and they determine it to be so , lest any man of that religion should be so good a subject as to profess obedience to the king in temporals . then the plot goes on between sir miles stapleton , sir francis hungate , sir charles vavaser , sir thomas gascoyne , mr. gascoyne , middleton , rushton , my lady tempest , and a great company more , all met together and consulting in sir thomas gascoyne's house in his great room , his old dining room to this purpose , not only to bring in their religion but kill the king expresly ( so says the witness ) i think they had often talked of it before the witness in the priests chamber , for he being then a papist was privy to his masters design and the rest of the confederates for killing the king , which was the only thing they desired to effect , as the best way to bring in their religion : and there was great reason to do it they said too ; for the king had not kept his word with them when he was in his exile , for they said he had promised if he was restored to his kingdoms he would restore the pepish religion , but now he was returned and had broke his promise ; and nothing more was to be done , the pope having declared him an heretick , but to destroy him , and this was that which was agreed among them . the th . of may last after diverse other consults had about it the priest rushton being at sir thomas gascoynes house , bolron is desired to go into the gallery , and there presently comes in rushton sir thomas's priest , bolron acquaints him that he had been at the sessions and taken the oath of allegiance ; assoon as ever he heard it , he cries out he had committed a damnable sin , he must of necessity renounce it , and repent of it ; and he could give him a pardon , for he had an extraordinary power , more authority than others , he could give him absolution if he did repent of it , and that no catholick must by any means take the oath . a while after they had a discourse concerning killing the king ; and the witness says indeed he was not act●…ally in the room , for he says he stood at the door , and heard all the discourse , till at last the lady tempest one of the conspirators tàking notice of his being there , sen●… him down stairs . mr. just. pemberton . that is mowbray . mr. mowbray . i was called into the room and then sent down . mr. just. jones . 't is true brother that was mowbray , but as to b●…lron's discourse with rushton , when sir thomas gascoyne who was not in the house at the time bolron was with rushton , but had given a charge he should not go before he spoke with him ; when he did come home and spoke with him , he takes upon him to go on with the discourse concerning the plot , and he swears positively that he offered he would give him l. and this he swears he should have paid him in london . this is expresly the testimony of bolron . now what says mowbray ? he tells you , though that is but introduction to make his evidence more probable , that there was great resort of priests to the prisoners house . he tells you of the discourse and consultation the priests had in the house , and that it was expresly and precisely for killing the king. he tells you that he did stand at the door and heard it as i observed before , and he tells you too which hath not been observed that at that time there was produced a list of or persons that had engaged in the design of killing the king , he did see the list ; he did lee sir thomas gascoynes hand which he very well knew and was acquainted with , and which might very well be , being his servant : so that here is not only a discourse and agreement by parol that he should be in the conspiracy , but if you believe him , he says , that here is actually the hand of sir thomas to the engagement to do the villany , and truly they that were of that perswasion at that time might easily be induced to it . for it was agreed amongst them , that they should have a plenary indulgence of years , and it was a meritorious act , and though sir thomas perhaps was not so ready to contribute in all things , yet hearing of the meritoriousness of the act , and withal that he should be canonized for a saint for this piece of piety , he certainly might readily consent to it . mr. mowbray indeed was asked , why he did not discover it sooner ? he tells you why , he was in fear of the papists , he was threatned , and very like he might be possessed with fear , and so might a man of greater constancy till the business was discovered , and therefore he did not talk of it in the country , but came up here where it was more safe to discover it , and hath been here ever since : besides this testimony of these witnesses , gentlemen , there are some papers produced ; some that mention money that hath been conveyed by sir thomas gascoyne in confirmation of the testimony of bolron the first witness , who does swear that he heard sir thomas say he would send l. to the jesuites to go on and prosecute this plot ; and afterwards he did hear him say he had sent the l. that he had promised . now it does appear by sir thomas's almanack that he had sent several sums , his receiver phiswick did speak of l ▪ and he himself did give a touch towards it . indeed phiswick was a receiver ●…or sir thomas , and likewise for his son and for the lady tempest , but it is impossible if they had sent all the money that ever they had , and considering too that the lady tempest as appears by the witnesses lived in the country , that it could have amounted to near that sum of money , for she had but l. a year , and the el●…est son had but l. a year , how then could l. be returned for them in years time . 't is true there is some answer given as to that l. by that witness hobart , who says there was a suit , and l. a year decreed to be paid to mrs. appleby sir thomas's niece for so many years , and he to take care of sending that to her , and though that was but l. a year , yet there was a decree or some order to pay the arr●…rs with the other money which made it up l. the evidence for the king against the prisoner is but two witnesses , but they as positive and express as possibly can be . what then is said by the prisoner or the witnesses in his defence ? there is one that is shippon that gives some testimony against the very evidence and the possibility of it to be true in one part of it ; for bolron he tells you that the th . of may was the time , when there was that consult held at sir thomas gascoynes in the gallery with the priest , that he staid there till night , and that then sir thomas talked with him and made this proffer to him for the murder and destruction of the king. here comes a witness s●…ippon and tells you that that very th . of may bolron was at his house at a clock and staid an hour or two after sunset ; if that weretrue that he were there all that time , it is not then true that he speaks of about sir thomas gascoyne , and it was impossible that he should be at the consult at that time when he says he was there , and afterwards spoke to sir thomas gascoyne . now gentlemen you have the kings witness upon his oath , he that testifies against him is barely upon his word , and he is a papist too , for that he was asked , and he did confess himself so . i do not say that a papist is no witness , ●…a papist is a witness , and he is a witness in a papist cause , and for a papist ; but i must tell you , there is less credit to be given to a papist in a cause of this nature , who easily can believe they may have indulgences and pardons enough for saving one from the gallows who is to be canonized for a saint if the plot take effect . he hath only affirmed it who is a papist , the other who is a protestant swears what his evidence is . mr. babbington who was the first witness examined for the prisoner , he tells you there had been some debates and differences about rent and money that was owing by bolron to the prisoner . he laboured and interceded often on his behalf , ●…but at length not being able to prevail that he should not be sued ; the witness swears , i will then do that which i did not intend to do . what he meant by it is doubtful , and it is an ambiguous speech , but to interpret it that he would swear falsly to take away a mans life , and so commit both murder and perjury , is hard to infer and conclude from such doubtful words . there are some witnesses that tell you , that is , moor , and others , that bolron did say and swear that sir tho ▪ gascoyne was never concern●…d in the plot : that might very well be , especially if you take the time when he did say this , he was a papist a great while after sir thomas had ingaged himself in the plot , and while he was so , it is not unlike he would venture an oath to save any of the same perswasion and religion he himself ▪ was of . but whatsoever he said it was not judicially , he was not bound to discover to him he spoke to , he is now upon his oath , and you have heard what an express testimony he gives . as to what is said concerning his wife , that he should endeavour to perswade her contrary to her knowledge to give testimony against sir tho. gascoyne , and therefore he is not to be believed ▪ here upon his own oath , who would have his wife forswear herself to fortifie him : there is no such thing , and it does appear by the evidence of those that are sworn , that he was earnest , ●…d would have his wife go and testifie her knowledge ▪ but did not infuse or intimate any thing to her she should say , whether she did know it or no : a●…d to assure you that , you have the oath of the woman herself , who hath been present here , and tells you the same thing . dixon he comes and says , in august last , mowbray said he knew nothing of the prisoner , which may be answered by his fear ; but concerning the two witnesses that mr. sollicitor did take notice of , he did tell you , and 't is plain , how very improbable it was two persons should speak in the presence of strangers , and tell them they were about to take away the life of another person , the one of the lady tempest who had done him a displeasure , the other of sir tho. gascoyne , but mowbray at that time said he knew nothing of sir tho. gascoyne ; but gentlemen , besides what was said before , this is improbable any such thing should be , and you hear the witnesses , at least one of them , that he never knew one of the two . mr. bolron . i knew neither of them . mr. just. jones . i should be very loth to omit any thing on the witnesses side , or that hath been materially testified against them on the prisoners . i did not conceive the evidence given by mr. pebles to come to any thing at all . there was a discourse between bolron and him at last assizes , after some talk bolron tells him he had something to say to him , and what was it , bolron was told that he had charged some persons that he ought not to do , ( excused them for money that did not take the oath of allegiance as they ought to have done ) and it seems he did it hear , and so far he went as to bring witnesses before the justices of peace to prove it . and although they did not give evidence against mr. pebles in that very particular , yet certainly he thought they would have said something , but that does not argue at all , that because he did accuse mr. pebles ( as he thought justly in that particular ) therefore that now he should falsly accuse sir thomas in a matter that concerns his life so highly . there are some other things that were said by the witnesses that would tend towards the proving of some malice in the witnesses towards sir thomas gascoyne , and therefore they give in this evidence : one thing indeed was spoken by hickringill , that is , it was generally reported in the country that mowbray had taken away money from sir thomas gascoyne , and that mowbray himself said , that as they had endeavoured to take away his fame and life , now he had found an opportunity to requite them . so saith the witness , but 't is not very probable . i leave it with you upon the credit of the witnesses for the king , who have sworn it upon their oaths , and the others that go upon their words , and not their oaths , whether they have taken away the force and strength of the kings evidence which is as sull , express and positive as can be by two witnesses . gentlemen , here is on the one side the life of an ancient gentleman before you , on the other side there is a conspiracy against the life of the king , who is the breath of our nostrils , and whom god long 〈◊〉 . i know you being upon your oaths will take into your considerations both , and give a verdict according to the evidence you have heard . mr. just. dolben . i will tell you gentlemen , i cannot forbear saying one thing to you . there is some evidence that makes it a very improbable thing to be true what mr. bolron hath said , and yet mr. bolron having said it so positively , and mowbray agreeing with it , probabillties must give way to positive proofs . i saw you did observe it when it was mentioned , and 't is true , to me it seems improbable that at the very same time that sir thomas gascoyne should sue him upon his bond , and take a course to turn him out of his house , that he should then be privy to such a conspiracy ; 't is improbable either that sir thomas should offer him such a sum of money to kill the king , or if he had , that he should afterwards take that course at law against him . now for that i say this to you , you are to give a verdict according to your evidence . they have such secret contrivances amongst themselves ( and he was a papist at that time ) that where there are two men that positively tell you a thing that lies within their own knowledge , and swear it is true , it is scarce any improbability that should weigh against such an evidence . mr. just. pemberton . and gentlemen consider withal as to that , for truly my brother dolben hath rightly minded you of that improbability , for it was no more : but then you must consider all the circumstances . 't is indeed at the first blush improbable that a man would communicate so great a secret to another , if he did intend to sue him for money he owed him , but then 't is likewise as improbable that he would provoke him by a suit if his life were in his hand ; but consider the delivering of the lease of ejectment , and those things were the th . of june . mr. babbington . but i had sued him before , my lord. mr. just. dolben . the of june he says . mr. babbington . i had direction long before i did it . mr. just. pemberton they threatned him the , but they did not do it . but look you gentlemen consider this , i do not doubt but sir thomas gascoyne was sure that this man durst not discover any thing of this , for they had given him the sacrament and an oath of secrecy , which they look upon as a tye among themselves as long as they continue in that religion , not upon any accompt whatsoever to be undone , and they have such confidence in it that they will trust their lives and every thing in a man's hand when they have given him that oath . alas how could these people have the confidence to plot one with another as they do , when they know their lives are in the hands of any one of all the rest , but upon this accompt ? do but swear them unto secrecy and give them the sacrament of the mass upon it , and then they think such a one is proof enough against anything in the world , for that is damnation if they break it , as their priests tell them , but i doubt not but sir thomas thought he had them as fast as can be upon that l●…ck . but as to sir thomas's evidence of those men at leeds , this is after the accusation of sir thomas that they speak of , and can any man alive believe that they would go and plot to contrive the death of these persons in the face of strangers , after he was accused ? 't is so strange an evidence that no man alive can believe it to be truth . look you gentlemen , persons that go to contrive such things as these are , go in secret , and hope they should never be discovered ; but by one of themselves . who would contrive when two be by , and if they say true might see them as well as hear them , though they did contradict one another in their evidence , the one said he was above , the other said he was below , the one said he might see them , the other not . look you gentlemen i do see that they do lay some stress upon this , that he was his debtor , for that they seem to prove by their witnesses , but you must lay no great stress upon that at all , for the money were not quit if sir tho. were found guilty , the money is due to the king then , he saves nothing by it , his mony must be paid let the prisoner be found guilty , or not guilty , 't is all one to him . you must consider this case , gentlemen , if you believe the●…e men are perjured men , and have gone and contrived a malicious design against a mans life ; then god forbid they should be believed any way , but it is a positive evidence and 't is not an evidence barely of it self , but introduced by a great many circumstances that went before , they tell you the whole affair , that it does seem they have been privy to the affairs of these jesuites all along ; and sir thomas gascoynes house hath it seems abounded with them , he hath been very beneficial to that sort of people , mighty charitable as they call it in superstition , and you must consider that nothing can ●…eem strange to them that will be ridden by priests , they put them upon all the immoralities and villanies that can be found out for the cause of religion as they call it ; nothing can seem strange that is testified against them . therefore i must leave it to you upon what you have heard and upon their credit whether you believe the witnesses or not . mr. just. jones . ay , 't is left upon their credit that are your own country-men , better known to you than us . mr. just. dolben . look you sir thomas hodgson , and the gentlemen of the jury , if you will come in again in any time we will stay in court , otherwise you must lie by it all night , for we can take no privy verdict in this case . mr. just. pemberton . ay , we will stay , and hear motions a little while . then the jury withdrew from the bar , and after half an hour returned again , and being called over gave in their verdict thus . cl. of cr. sir thomas gascoyne hold up thy hand . look upon the prisoner ; how say you , is he guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . not guilty . cl. of cr. did he fly for it ? foreman . not that we know of . then the verdict was recorded and the court rose . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e yes . * mr. record . that is superior . his grace the duke of norfolk's charge against the dutchess before the house of lords, and the dutchesses answer with the depositions at large of the witnesses that were examined on both sides. norfolk, henry howard, duke of, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing n estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) his grace the duke of norfolk's charge against the dutchess before the house of lords, and the dutchesses answer with the depositions at large of the witnesses that were examined on both sides. norfolk, henry howard, duke of, - . norfolk, mary howard, duchess of, ?- . [ ], [i.e. ] p. [s.n.], london : . reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to 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likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (adultery) -- england. trials (divorce) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - melanie sanders sampled and proofread - melanie sanders text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the proceedings before the house of lords , between the duke and dutchess of norfolk , &c. his grace the duke of norfolk's charge against the dutchess , before the house of lords , and the dutchesses answer . with the depositions at large , of the witnesses that were examined on both sides . london , printed in the year , . the charge which henry duke of norfolk , earl marshal of england , doth exhibit against his wife mary , dutchess of norfolk , before the lords spiritual and temporal , in parliament assembled , ( pursuant to their lordships order of the th of january , . ) is for the crime of adultery . the person charged to commit the said crime with the said dutchess , is one germaine of the parish of st. margarets westminster . the times and places where the said crime was committed , were at white-hall , in the months of june , july , and august , some or one of them in the year . at windsor in the months of july , august , or september , some or one of them in the said year , . in the parish of st. margarets westminster , march , april , may , june , some or one of them in the year of our lord . and in the said parish of st. margarets westminister , in the months of july , or august . in the parish of lambeth , in the county of surry , in the months of may , june , july , august , some or one of them in the year . served by thomas bowen , january , before six of the clock . norfolk & marshal . the depositions of the dukes witnesses that were examined . rowland owen saith , that mr. reymer about six years since , being the duke of norfolks butler , ordered him to carry the things out , the lodgings being open , he saw mr. germain in bed with the dutchess of norfolk ; the dutchess leapt out of the bed , and put on a morning gown , and german hid himself in bed , this was between five and six of the clock in the evening , about a fortnight before bartholomew-day ; he did not tell the duke , he is sure it was germaine , he saw him often , twice or thrice a day , the outward door of the lodgings were shut , but he opened it with a key he had . margaret ellwood saith , she had a company to see the lodgings at windsor , in the first year of king james , about three or four of the clock in the afternoon , a woman told her my lady was not there , but she opening the door , saw my lady upon the stools in an ill posture , mr. germaine's breeches were down , he pulled them up , and laid his hand on his sword , saying , god damn you for a whore , how have you the impudence to come here ? my lady bid him kick me down , he scattered some concerns , that is , mans nature on the boards . she saw no nakedness but her knee , or a little above ; another time after , she found germaine's handkerchief and ruffles in my ladies bed ; my ladies woman said , there was germain's name upon them . another time she saw mr. cornwall let mr. germaine out of my ladies closet ; she saw germains leggs within hers when she came the first time into the room , and his breeches were about his heels : the first time was in bartholomew-fair time , mrs. knifton told her , it was germains linnen . thomas hudson saith , that the duke of norfolk being at portsmouth , he was butler at windsor , when germaine , the dutchess , and cornwall went to play , germaine sent his footman for clean linnen , which he brought next morning . mrs. gwyn said to the dutchess , the dogg would have layn with me , but she would not lye with the dogg where the deer lay'd , for she knew my lady dutchess would accept of him ; after that , he saw a shirt and wastecoat in the closet , which my ladies woman , and ann burton took away . my lord being absent , we murmured amongst our selves , that my lord was wrong'd , i told my lord , whereupon my master cragg had me to lord peterborough's lodgings , and threatned me , that he would prefer me to his brother richards , who turned me off in germany ; this was he thinks in december or september , mrs. gwyn spoke this in the green-room , and he was in a closet hard by , and the door open , and so heard it . ann burton saith , she was servant to the duke and dutchess of norfolk , when the duke was gone to portsmouth , she was at windsor ; and my lady went to london with germaine , when my lady came home , after supper , she was in great haste to go to bed , when she was undrest , she said she would lock us out , because she would not be disturbed before eleven a clock the next morning , though the king or queen should come : hudson told her , germaine was still in the house , whereupon we laid chairs on the back-stairs , that we might hear him if he came down ; the chairs were not removed next morning , when germains man came with the linnen , he said , his master was there . my lady ordered a fire to be made in my lords room , where , when she was come , mrs. nelly gwynn came in , and asked her , how she liked her nights rest , and being asked for germaine , she said , she knew nothing of him . my lady complaining of her hair being out of order , nelly answered , it was a hot night with her , enough to put her hair out of powder and curl too : presently after cornwell came in and ask'd for germaine , and my lady saying , she knew nothing of him , nelly gwynn said , i question not but he will come out by and by like a drowned ratt ; with that whilst i was cleaning the dining room , mrs. kifton called me , and shewed me in the closet , germaines shirt and wastcoat ; and afterwards , making my ladies bed , saw there were two prints had laid , the shirt and wastcoat were sent by the duke to the lord peterboroug , she saith she is a single woman , and was never marryed , this was about bartholomew-tide about six years since , she supposes the bed was stained both by a man and woman . simon varelst saith , that he was at windsor to draw the dutchess of norfolks picture about six years since , and had the dukes closet to put his pictures in ; when he had done , and had been at home two or three days , german came to him much concerned , and said , you can do the dutchess an extraordinary kindness , & will oblige the lord and lady peterborough in the highest degree ; then he shewed me a letter from the dutchess to me , and read it to me , before that he told me there was a shirt and waiscoat , and they are known to be his . he said , i desire you to save the dutchess honour , i desire that you will be so much a gentleman , as to own them to be yours , and that you left them there . i answered , i was much concerned there should be such a trouble , but i desired to be excused , i could not do it without prejudice . he told me , the lord and lady peterborough had discoursed the duke of norfolk upon it , and if it were but my linnen , their discourse had wrought so much on him , that if there came but any evidence to assist them , he would leave off the pursuit : i refusing still , he offered me a purse of gold , and told me , i should have my fortune by it , but i still refusing mr. germaine , he went away very much discontented , my own wife being in the next room , over-heard the discourse between germaine and me , and told it , and spoke of it , else i had not been here now . thomas foster saith , that he was coachman to mr. germaine , and carried the dutchess of norfolk often , about two years since in his coach , and brought her home , and the footmen have had four half-crowns given them , and martin a dutchman his helper , called it hush-money . it was by night against a light , that he saw her face in the coach , it was about seven or eight of the clock at night , about this time a year he hath seen her face once in the day-time , she looking out of a sash-window two stories high in germain's house in park-street , he knows her face well enough ; he hath seen her before , and since she was married . edieth sawbridge saith , that the tuesday following , this unhappy discourse concerning the dutchess of norfolk , mrs. sturton came into her chamber , and she telling her what had happened at windsor , mrs. sturton replied , this was nothing but what she expected before now ; the witness replied , that if she the witness had been as near the dutchess as the said mrs. sturton , she would have prevented all this , to which mrs. sturton said , would you have had me whipt at the carts-arss ; the discourse we had , was , that mrs. knifton told her , when i came from london , on fryday night , that she told me she was glad i was come , for she expected her throat to be cut every night since my lord duke went to fortsmouth , i askt her the reason of her fear , she answered , germain had said with my lady dutchess ever since my lord duke went to portsmouth , that when he came home , he would hear of it , and he would kick her for a bawd ; and if she should tell my lord , germain would cut her throat : i bid her have a care what she said , for these were dangerous words , how can you prove this , she said , it was very true , the witness asking her ( mrs. knifton ) how she knew this , she said , germain instead of going home , went into the closet ; the witness cannot say that she said all this to mrs. sturton , but the greatest part she did say ; mrs. sturton said , this was nothing but what she expected before , this was the tuesday after my lord duke came from portsmouth ; this was about bartholomew-tide , in the first year of king james's reign . her grace the dutchess of norfolks answer to the lords in parliament , against a divorce . i mary , dutchess of norfolk , under protestation , that the pretendid charge of adultery against me ▪ in the honourable house of peers , was and is generally insufficient , and such as i humbly conceive , i am not bound by law to give answer unto ; yet knowing my own innocency , and that i am not guilty of the pretended crimes , ( this protestation being shewed to me ) i shall and do under the matters and qualifications hereafter mentioned , answer , and say , hereby affirming that having been married to his grace the duke of norfolk for near fifteen years , he never did ( till the pretended charge given against me ) in the least pretend or intimate unto me that i had injured his bed , but did always treat me with great kindness and respect : about the year , at his request and desire , i did go with him from london to france , and there continued with him some time , where his grace being under an indisposition , and continuing so for some time , he shewed so great affection to me , and put so great trust and confidence in me , that all such things as were administred to him , in order to his recovery , he did not , non would receive any of them , but what came from my hands , and did with great care attend him ; and being recovered , he told me , his occasions required him to go for england , but he would return to me in france in some short time , and bring me home for england ; and at his parting with me , he shewed great affection to me , with tears in his eyes , said , he had a thousand pardons to ask me , desiring my patience , and that i should return into england to him in some short time ; and after his graces return into england , he having notice from me , that my lodgings was inconvenient , and desiring his leave to change the same , he wrote me word , very affectionately , that god forbid he should constrain me to any incon●eniency , and left me to my liberty therein ; before his parting with me in france , as a testimony of his love and affection to me , he ordered pounds yearly to be paid me out of his own estate , by quarterly payment , over and above the seperate maintenance settled upon me by my father , upon my marriage with him , and that after his arrival in england , he made several visits to my mother , the countess of peterborough , and with great observance and respect , asked her blessing , and told her , that he had left me well and safe in france , and then said , his own debts were pressing upon him , that if her daughter ( meaning my self , ) would consent that the mannor of drayton and other estates should be settled on him , and his heirs , he should thereby be made a happy man ; and i coming into england , his grace having put off house-keeping and dwelling in the countess of peterboroughs lodgings in st. james's for about two years ; and in suing him for alimony , the said four hundred a year not being paid unto me , he did not during that suit , object any crime against me , which had been proper for him to have done to avoid any alimony , if i had been guilty ; and i the said mary , dutchess of norfolk , being at drayton in northampton-shire , his grace did write very affectionately unto me , and that disturbances happening in northampton-shire , and those parts in november , i left drayton , and with the consent of the duke , went beyond seas , and there continued until sent for by my father and mother , and then returned to england , which was in or about octob. . with the dukes consent , and then application being made to me , by the duke my husband , to joyn with him in the sale of castle-rising , and other estate , i being advised that would be injurious to me , would not joyn therein , which i humbly apprehend to be the true cause and occasion of this proceeding against my honour , on the duke my husbands part . and i the said mary , dutchess of norfolk , adhering to my protestation of my innocense , and denying that i am guilty of the pretended crime charged against me , and being unwilling to impeach my husband of any crime whatsoever , yet being advised , that by the laws of the land , a husband suing a divorce for the adultery of his wife , he ought not to obtain any sentence of divorce if he be proved guilty of the same . wherefore , the respondent doth aver , and is ready to prove , that the duke her husband , was , and is guilty of the adultery , and hath continued in the course of adultery for this ten years last past , and doth so continue . my lords , it is misfortune and dishonour enough to be thus accused , i had rather stand charged for high-treason before your lordships , than with this ignominious crime : in the charge for high-treason , the manner of tryals , the ways of proceedings are known , so is the punishment in this case against me . your lordships are now creating new ways of proceeding against me , and a new law to punish me , and this for a crime supposed , and alledged , and to be committed near seven years past in another reign after publick indempnity in the session of parliament ; many sittings of the parliament , and desolution of others , without mentioning this crime against me : my councils are to seek how to advise my defence in the proceeding , being altogether strange and without precedent or example . i find my prosecution now to be very violent , and the proceeding very swift upon me , having had but one night to prepare my answer to this general charge . i do in this place publickly declare , i am innocent of what is objected to me , and am not guilty of defiling my husbands bed : i am not guilty of the crime charged against me : i hope ( being thus accused ) i may without vanity , and vain-glory , say , what is well known , that i am not only the lord duke of norfolks wife , but also born and descended from parents and ancestors of the antient nobility ; and that your lordships ancestors , and my ancestors , who sate in this house , knew no such proceeding , it is with regret that i bring this answer for my self and against my husband , being my defence , i hope you will excuse me . and if your lordships shall in your great wisdom proceed farther in this matter , i hope , and do most humbly pray , that i may hereafter have convenient time to make my proofs , and full defence , and then i doubt not of your lordships justice for as much as for my husband , who sits and votes with your lordships . mary norfolk . the depositions of the witnesses on the behalf of her grace the dutchess of norfolk . alexander herman , saith , that he served mr. germaine , he hath left his service a year and a half , about eight weeks after he came from ireland with the king ; he served him a year and a half , mr. germaine was in ireland with the king , in the summer , in the year . he went to ireland two days before the king that summer , he continued there four months , he believes he went the last of may , or the last of june ; he came back with the king , he the witness served him all that time in ireland , and saw him every hour and every day , and never stirred from him from ireland he came in the same ship with the lord villiers the earl of manchester and mr. felton , and he went to ireland in the monmouth yatch with the envoys of holland and brandenburgh , and the marquess mampevillion ; he saith , mr. germain was at brussels in flanders in may last , he saw him there , and speak with him there , he saw the lord villiers and the lord lumley there with him , he lodged with him in the same tavern , there with him for four days , and saw him not after ; he the witness coming then for england left him there ; he never k●ew him wear his own hair , his own hair is dark brown , he never knew him appear abroad without a wigg , his hair is about half a finger long , he wore a fair wigg , he saith , he the witness was quartered in a place behind him in ireland , he could not stirr but he heard him ; he saith , that four weeks after he saw him in brussels , he saw him walking in st. james's park ▪ anthony moore saith , he was barbar to mr. germaine , the first time he shawed him was five or six years since , his own hair is brown , he shaved his head very often , he shaved him before he went to holland , and since he came home , he never saw his hair long enough to cover his ears , nor saw him ever wear his own hair but a periwigg , he shaved him for a year and a half before , and since he went for ireland , he shaved him always at his house near the park , he or his man shaved him ever since he came from holland to this day , he or his man shaved him the night before the king went for holland ; he saith , that mr. germaine when he went away , said it would be a month or two before he should come back , but he knew not how long it was . this was at his house next door to the cockpitt , he shaved him yearly since the king came into england , he saith , the campaigne was almost done when he first shaved him after he came from flanders . grace cook says , that she knows jane wadsworth , she hath lived near her four years , she came into the witnesses house with a paper in her hand , and ask't her who left it , saying , she knew nothing of it ; she said , that she had said , that she had seen the dutchess of norfolk in master germaines house , but she had not seen her a great while , and now that she had seen her , she was satisfied that it was not her , and she wish't that she might burn in the fire , and never go home to her children , if she would take her oath of it : the paper was to warn her to this house , it was the first night that the papers came out that she said this , hosea grimes , john hall and margaret , were present when she said this , she saith , she lives next door but one to jane wadsworth . john hall saith , that he hath known jane wadsworth above a year , about a fortnight since she came into mrs. cooks with an order in her hand , but knew not who left it , and said she could say nothing to it , mrs. cook saying again , you must say something to it , else you had not had this order from the house ; then she said she had been at the duke of norfolks and had told the duke that she had chanced to go into captain germanies for a pint pott , and she said she chanced to see the dutchess of norfolk , but she said she might be mistaken , for she had not seen her in seven years before , but she had seen her once or twice since she came from france , and that was none of the dutchess of norfolk which she saw in captain germanies stairs , whereupon hosea grimsley asking her if she was sure it was not she , she said she was sure it was not she , wishing that she might burn and never go home to her children if she would swear it , for she could not swear it . hosea grimsley , grace cook , and two other women were present in grace cooks house when this discourse happened , which was the very night the order came out , he saith , he wrought in mr. germanies house , he saw twice or thrice ladies there in masks , one of the ladies in the mask gave orders to take down a partition , she was reported to be captain germanes sister . margaret coney saith , that she knows jane wadswort● ▪ who come into mrs. cooks the first time she was subpena'd , and asked her who left the paper in her hand for her , she went to mr. germain●s for a pott , she thought she saw the dutchess of norfolk there , but she saw her since her coming from france , and she was well satisfied it was not her , and wished she might neversee her children , and burn if ever she saw her there . alexander herman saith , that he knoweth jane wadsworth well , he never had any discourse with her concerning the dutchess of norfolks , being in mr. germaines house , he saith , he hath drunk often at wadworths house , but he never had any discourse with her concerning the dutchess of norfolk , nor never saw this woman in his masters house in all his life , he waited on his master at table , and in his chamber all the time of his service , which was a year and a half , he never saw a lady in a mask in his masters house . mary pennington saith that she knows jane wadsworth , she was her servant , but not long , for she was not honest , she the witness being gone out , at her return , she met her going away with her the witnesses linnen and her husbands bundled up , this was about a years since . frances knight saith , that she knoweth not jane wadsworth , nor never discoursed with her , nor never saw her at master germaines house , nor did the witness ever carry any letters thither . jvdith stourton saith , that she was servant to the dutchess of norfolk when the report was of the dutchess and mr. germain , which was about a week before the duke and dutchess went to france , she was asked by the lord peterborough in the presence of the duke of norfolk in the dukes house in st. james's square ( where they shut the door ) as she would answer it before almighty god , if she did not know whether his daughter was an adulteress ? her answer was , as she hoped to see god in heaven , the dutchess was as vertuous as any woman alive , for ought i know , she saith , that what she then said is true , and if she should pretend to say any other , she should wrong her self , she saith , that no one was present beside the lord peterborough and the duke , when they examined her , and that she saw no shirt or vvastcoat at that time , and that she doth not remember that she said to mrs. webb any thing concerning the dutchess and mr. germaine , and thinks she never spoke with mrs. webb , and she was not at windsor when the duke was at portsmouth , she saith , there was a report of scandalls which she was sorry for . elizabeth camell saith , that she went with the duke and dutchess of norfolk into france , they went together very lovingly , and parted so , she thinks the duke staid with her about a fortnight , the dukes eye was ill , and my lady went often to him , and when she did so we retired , my lady dressed his eye , they eat and drank together every day , they did not lodge together that she knows : my lord told her at parting at the grate in the monastery , that he would fetch her away suddenly , and they parted kindly , mrs. lawson was in the monastery with the dutchess ; the witness continued there about months , my lord expressed a great deal of kindness to my lady in going , and while he was there , there were tears on both sides at parting ; when my lord and lady were together in the house called , loten de tarran at paris , we used to withdraw , not knowing what they had to say together . matthew scot saith , that he hath paid several sums to the dutchess from the duke in may , he paid l. for the dutchess to mr. cray , he paid or l. into france when the duke and dutchess was there , he cannot say he remitted any money into france after the duke came home , he knows not that any money was paid to mr. morton for my lady by the dukes order . mrs. judith stourton ( examined before on the dutchess behalf ) saith that she saw mrs. sawbridge once in the dukes house in st. james's square , and they talk of the scandal of mr. germain and the dutchess of norfolk ; she saith , she the witness never heard mrs. sawbridge say that mrs. knifton should say , that mr. germain laid with the dutchess every night at windsor , she denys that she said to mrs. sawbridge that she expected to hear of that before now , she never said to mrs. sawbridge , would you have had me whipt at the carts arse , she saith , she remembers not that mrs. sawbridge told her that mrs. knifton said , that she was afraid that her throat would have been cut when the duke was at portsmouth , she remembers not that she askt mrs. sawbridge the reason of mrs. kniftons fear , or that she told her any thing of mrs. kniftons saying , that mr. germain laid with my lady every night at windsor , she saw mrs. sawbridge and discoursed with her , but she connot say what discouse she had with her . finis . [the tryal of john hambden for conspiring the death of the king, and raising a rebellion in this kingdom at the sessions-house in the old-bayly, london ... th of december, ...] hampden, john, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) [the tryal of john hambden for conspiring the death of the king, and raising a rebellion in this kingdom at the sessions-house in the old-bayly, london ... th of december, ...] hampden, john, ?- . england and wales. court of king's bench. p. printed by e. mallet, for d. mallet, [london : ] reproduction of original in university of michigan libraries. imperfect: lacks t.p. in filmed copy. information supplied by bm. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher 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markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng charles -- ii, -- king of england, - . hampden, john, ?- -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (treason) -- england. rye house plot, . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - jason colman sampled and proofread - jason colman text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of john hambden , esq the th day of november , . ann. . car. . reg. john hambden esq being brought up by writ of habeas corpus , from the tower of london , and there being an indictment preferred against him for misdemeanor , his majesties attorney general , prayed that he might be a●●igned upon it , which was done in this manner . cl. of cr. john hambden , you stand here indicted by the name of john hambden , late of the parish of st. giles in the fields , in the county of middlesex , gent. for that you being a pernitious and seditious man , and a person of a wicked mind , and of an impious , unquiet , and turbulent disposition , and contriving , practising , and falsly , unlawfully , unjustly , maliciously , turbulently , and seditiously intending the peace of our soveraign lord king charles that now is , and the common tranquility of this kingdom of england , to disquiet , molest , and disturb , and as much as in you lay , sedition within this kingdom of england , to incite , stir up , and procure , and the government of our said lord the king in this kingdom of england into danger to bring , and that you the said john hambden , your most impious , wicked , and seditious intentions aforesaid , to fulfil and perfect , and bring to effect the last day of june , in the five and thirtieth year of the reign of our said soveraign lord the king that now is ; and divers other days and times as well before as after , with force and arms , &c. at the parish of st. giles in the fields , in the county of middlesex , unlawfully , unjustly , maliciously , and seditiously did assemble your self , meet , consult , conspire , and confederate with divers evil disposed subjects of our said lord the king to the jurors unknown , and with the said persons did treat concerning your said most wicked and seditious compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid , to be executed , fulfill'd , and brought to effect ; and further that you the said john hambden your most wicked , impious , and seditious contrivances , practices and intentions aforesaid , to fulfil , perfect , and reduce to effect , then , and there , viz. the last day of june in the th . year aforesaid , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , with force and arms , &c. falsly , unlawfully , unjustly , maliciously , and seditiously did consult , consent , censpire and confederate of an insurrection within this kingdom of england to be made , and of procuring and providing arms and armed men to be prepared in divers places within this kingdom of england your same most wicked , impious , and seditious intentions and compassings aforesaid , to fulfil and perfect : and that you the said john hambden , your most wicked , impious , and seditious intentions aforesaid , to fulfil and perfect , and bring to effect afterwards , viz. the last day of june , in the th year aforesaid , at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , with force and arms , &c. falsly , unlawfully , unjustly , wickedly , maliciously , and seditiously did consult , agree , and consent that a certain person to the jurors aforesaid unknown , should be sent into scotland to invite and incite divers evil disposed subjects of our said lord the king , of his kingdom of scotland , to come into this kingdom of england to advise and consult with you the said john hambden , and others the aforesaid evil disposed subjects of our said lord the king in this kingdom of england , concerning aid and assistance to be expected and supplyed out of the said kingdom of scotland , your said most wicked , impious , and seditious intentions and compassings aforesaid , to fulfil , effect , and promote in manifest contempt of the laws of this kingdom of england , to the evil and most pernicious example of all others in the like case offending , and against the peace of our said soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity . how sayst thou , art thou guilty of this high misdemeanour whereof thou standest indicted , and hast been now arraigned , or not guilty ? mr. hambden . not guilty . upon which plea issue was joyned between his majesties attorney general , on behalf of the king and defendant , and bail was then taken for the defendants appearance the next term. hillary term , and . car. secundi reg. in the beginning of the term , sir thomas jenner , knight , his majesties serjeant at law , and recorder of the city of london , moved for a tryal at the bar , in the case between the king and mr. hambden , which was by the court appointed to be on wednesday the th of february in the same term. die mercurii . februarii , . anno regni reg. car. secundi . . cl. of cr. call the defendant john hambden . mr. williams . he appears . cl. of cr. gardez votrez challenges . call sir charles gerard. cryer . you shall well and truly try the issue between our soveraign lord the king , and john hambden , gent. and a true verdict give according to your evidence . so help you ●●d . jurat . sir charles gerard. cl. of cr. roger jennings , esq jur. henry hodges , esq jur. joshua galliard , esq mr. williams . we challenge him for the defendant . l. ch. just . what is your cause of challenge ? mr. williams . if your lordship please to let him go through the pannel , we will shew cause if there be not enough left without him . l. ch. just . no , shew your cause now , it being against the king. mr. williams . he has an employment under the king , he has an office in the forest , and that we say is our cause of challenge . l. ch. just . what then if he have ? mr. williams . my lord , we suppose then he is not an indifferent person to try this cause . l. ch. just . ay , let me hear that now proved and defended by any gentleman of the long robe , that that is a good cause of challenge . shew me what law there is for it . mr. williams . to be of the kings robe , or pay , or sallery , is an exception in any case wherein the king is concerned . l. ch. just . shew me any law for that if you can , mr. williams , i know you are a lawyer . mr. wallop . it is the opinion of my lord coke in his institutes , that it is a good cause of challenge . l. ch. just . but there is the opinion of all the judges in henry the fourths time against it . mr. wallop . it is my lord , fol. . l. ch. just . but i can cite you three or four books , and you have them all together in rolls abridgment , title challenge , where he sets down four books one after another , that it is no cause of challenge , even to be the kings tenant , and there is a great deal of reason for it . for if that were a good cause of challenge , mark the consequence , then all persons that hold lands in england hold them mediately or immediately of the king , and so the king could have no free-holders to be jury-men in his cause . mr. williams . this is a more special cause of challenge than that . l. ch. just . what can be greater than that of being the kings tenant ? mr. att. gen. especially when all the land of england was held of the crown , as originally it was . mr. trever . my lord in d . rolls . tit. tryals , there is the express opinion of my lord rolls , that to be of the livery or a menial servant of the crown , is a good cause of challenge . l. ch. just . and look you but in the st case in the st part of the abridgment , title challenges , where he mentions or books to the same purpose ; and 't is quite otherwise . mr. williams . my lord , in that of st . rolls , he only cites some books , but the other is his own opinion . l. ch. just . well , make out your fact if you have a mind to it : but it is well known that neither mr. serjeant rolls , nor my lord coke , when he delivered that opinion , are to be reckoned such authorities in crown matters . mr. williams . we will ask him , my lord , if you please . i suppose he will not deny it . l. ch. just . no , make out your fact if you will have any benefit by it , 't is only a challenge to the favour , which ought not to be in the kings case . i am very glad that we are now to debate this matter with men of the robe , because we have had a strange sort of notions and reflections spread abroad of late , as tho' the judges now adays gave strange sort of opinions , and as tho' persons that had been blemishes at the bar , were preferred to do strange things when they come upon the bench ; but truly i wonder to hear that it should be a doubt , when at the same time that which we gave as our opinion about one particular challenge , that is as to free-holders , it was the judgment of all the judges , that that was no challenge , and all the counsel that were concerned in that case , know it was the opinion of all the judges . but now if we meet with lawyers , i shall be glad to have the matter fairly argued and debated , and pray shew me what law or reason is for it . mr. wallop . certainly my lord , there is a great difference betwixt the general allegiance of all men , and so of a general tenure , and the dependance of any particular person who is a menial servant , and receives wages of the king. l. ch. just . i would desire to know of you mr. wallop , which is the greater challenge , to say such a one is tenant , or such a one is immediate servant to j. s ? mr. wallop . there is a great difference , my lord , i think , between an immediate tenant , and the general tenure of all subjects . l. ch. just . but certainly the law is thus , if he were an immediate or a mediate tenant to any but the king , if his lord were party to the suit it would be a good challenge , but the being tenant to the king is no good challenge in the kings case . mr. williams . my lord , i take it , the act of parliament that takes away the court of wards and liveries , hath altered the law as to that matter of tenure ; for now we hold in socage , and that other tenure is destroyed that was between the king and his subjects . l. ch. just . but pray how comes it to be a challenge now that was not one before ? does that act of parliament make it a good cause of challenge ? if it does , shew it . i tell you the old books are against it . mr. williams . i speak , my lord , to the tenure , that that is nothing at all now to be objected , because all is now in socage . l. ch. just . i would not have mr. attorney insist upon a jury-man , but yet with-all i would not have it gone away with as law , that it is a good cause of challenge . mr. wallop . my lord , we finding in some cases that are in our books , that it is held to be a good cause of challenge , lay it before the court. mr. att. gen. how many errors do you find in my lord coke , notwithstanding all his learning ? l. ch. just . i say if i was mr. attorney , i would not contest for any particular man to be a jury-man , i speak that as my advice , but i would not have it taken for law , nor would i have it broached abroad , that tho' the judges now were of one opinion , yet the law truely was of another . mr. jones . if all that receive sallery , or wages from the king , are not to be jury-men in the kings causes , then all the deputy lieutenants and militia officers , which generally are the most substantially freeholders , are excluded from being jury-men . mr. just . wythins . who will say so , mr. jones ? no lawyer in england surely will say so . mr. williams . offices where there are no profit , will not be the same exception . mr. att. gen. but he is no menial servant of the kings . mr. williams . what is he then ? mr. wallop . we hear that he is keeper of one of the kings forests , and has a fee for it . mr. williams . well , we will ask him upon a voyer dire . mr. att. gen. my lord , the fact is quite otherwise , and i desire they may make it out . l. ch. just . truly i think 't is not tanti to insist upon any particular man , but i find we are in age that is so full of cavils , that if we act but according to the presidents that went before us , we are thought to act as originals , and to make new laws , when we only follow the rules that we have received from our predecessors . and i say there was no such challenge at common law , that ever i read of in any of our books , nor is it any challenge by the best authorities extant . mr. jones . i desire them to shew me any such president , that any man was challenged by one that was tried at the suit of the king , for a challenge to the favour , but we must do unpresidented things , or else there will be no satisfying of some men. mr. att. gen. i would fain know , what one opinion in a stragling book is against the currant of all our law ? mr. williams . which do you call a stragling book , mr attorney ? my lord coke's institutes , or my lord rolls abridgment ? l. ch. just : i say the better opinion of the books is on the other side , and the greater number too . mr. att. gen. first of all , i do know of my own knowledge , he is no menial servant . l. ch. just . mr. attorney , i do debate it for learning sake , truely i know not the man , nor whether he be the kings servant , or not , but i speak against allowing the challenge , that if he be set aside , it may not be taken as a president , and so pass for law that the kings servants can't be jury-men . i would have you quit the man by consent , but not as a force-put , as tho' the law were so , for the law i think is otherwise . mr. att. general . he is none , my lord , they mistake . l. ch. just . nay , i know nothing of the man , i tell you only what i think . mr. wallop . he receives wages , or a fee from the king for his office. mr. just wythins . i would never for my part while i live , nor never did , while i was a practiser , stand upon any particular jury-man . mr. att gen. he may be a jury-man by law sure . l. ch. just . there is no doubt of it , mr. attorney . mr. att. gen. my lord , if your lordships have given your opinion , i desire he may stand by . l. ch. just . well , mr. attorney waves him , let him stand by . mr. att. gen. but for no reason that has been offered . l. ch. just . no , no , i don't hear any thing of reason offered for it . cl. of cr. mr. galliard . you may go down . thomas harriott , esq jur. thomas earsby , esq jur. william avery , esq jur. john sharpe , esq jur. richard shoreditch . mr. williams . we challenge him for the defendant . l. ch. just . what is your cause of challenge ? mr. williams . there is the same exception to him . l. ch. just . if mr. attorney will consent , with all my heart . mr. sol. gen. no , we humor'd you in one , we won't humor you any more . mr. williams . nay , here is something more clear for us , he is a serjeant at arms attending his majesty . mr. just . wythins . you know our opinions already , mr. williams , unless mr. attorney consent , we can't do it . mr. williams . we only acquaint mr. attorney with it , we must submit to your rule , he is certainly serjeant at arms , he came in the place of dereham that let my lord gray escape . mr. att. gen. pray prove it , i don't know it for my share . mr. williams . will you ask him the question ? mr. att. gen. pray prove it . are we to gratifie your clyent ? pray let him better instruct his counsel . l. c. just . if mr. attorney consent not , then he must be sworn . mr. att. gen. if there be enough without him that do appear let him stand by . cl. of cr. stand down mr. shoreditch . charles good , esq jur. mr. att. gen. that it may appear how fair things were carried , they would not strike out one of these men when they came before the protonotary , as they might have done . mr. just wythins . truly that was not well done , to trouble the court when you might make your exceptions there . mr. williams . we did not know it then , now we do , we offer it to the court. cl. of cr. sam. rouse , esq jur. hugh squire , esq jur. nehemiah arnold , esq jur. and john bifeild , esq jur. then the jury were numbred , and the sworn were these . sir charles gerard , baronet . jur. roger jennings , esq jur. henry hodges , esq jur. thomas harriott , esq jur. thomas earsby , esq jur. william avery , esq jur. john sharpe , esq jur. charles good , esq jur. samuel rouse , esq jur. hugh squire , esq jur. nehemiah arnold , esq jur. john bifeild , esq jur. cl. of cr. gentlemen of the jury , you that are sworn , hearken to your charge . the defendant john hambden stands indicted by the name of john hambden , of the parish of st. giles in the fields , in the county of middlesex , gent. ( prout in the indictment , mutatis mutandis ) — to this indictment he has pleaded not guilty , and for his tryal puts himself upon the country , and the kings attorney general likewise , which country you are , your charge is to inquire whether the defendant be guilty of the great misdemeanour whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ; if you find him guilty , you are to say so ; and if you find him not guilty , you are to say so , and no more ; and hear your evidence . then proclamation was made for evidence in usual form . mr holoway . may it please your lordship , and gentlemen , you that are sworn , i am of counsel for the king upon this indictment . gentlemen , the indictment sets forth , that the defendant being a seditious malitious evil disposed person , and seditiously and maliciously intending to disturb the peace of the kingdom , the last day of june , in the . year of his now majesty's reign , and divers other days and times , at the parish of st. giles in the fields , in your county , did unlawfully assemble , and confederate himself with divers evil-disposed persons , subjects of our lord the king , and then and there , with those other persons did falsly maliciously and seditiously consult and conspire to make an insurrection in the kingdom of england , and to provide arms and armed men in divers places of the said kingdom . and the better to compleat his evil intentions , the said last day of june , did consult and agree to send certain persons , to the jurors unknown , into scotland , to invite several evil-disposed persons there to joyn in this conspiracy . this is the substance of the charge , and to this he says , he is not guilty ; if we prove him so , we do not question but you will find it . mr. att. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of this jury , mr hambden stands indicted of an high misdemeanour , for conspiring with several others , to raise rebellion within the kingdom , and to crave the assistance of the brother-hood of scotland . upon the face of the indictment , gentlemen , it appears to be a very high crime , and the matter of this indeed has been formerly in examination in other tryals , and yet the party you may observe do not acquiesce in those tryals , but think the persons accused lay under very great hardships , and that to a very great degree , as not having the advantage of counsel , nor to have their witnesses examined upon oath ; and therefore , gentlemen , the king is pleased to go less in this case than in the others , that this gentleman , who is now before the court , may clear his innocence , if he has any witnesses to do it . and if there be any advantage that the having of counsel can contribute to his cause he has that allowed him too . the course of our evidence , gentlemen , will be this . we shall prove to you that mr. hambden with five other persons , ( i shall name them ) the duke of monmouth , my lord russel , mr. sidney , my lord of essex , and my lord howard , they met several times , ( the particulars we shall give you an account of ) one was at mr. hambden's house , another was at my lords russels , where they did contrive together , and took upon them to be a juncto or a counsel of six collected out of the wisest men of the kingdom , to consider how they might better the affairs of the nation , and how they might make a stir : for they thought there was no way possible otherwise of doing it , but by their joynt counsels to carry on a rising . and that they might do it the better , they resolved to crave the assistance of scotland . gentlemen , we shall give you an account of their consults and debates , and shall shew you , that at length they came to a resolution , that the rising was to be carried on joyntly in london , and the several parts of the kingdom , in several countries at once . then they came to think , and consider whether it were not best to send into scotland , to draw them in too . and thereupon it was agreed by this juncto , that they would send thither , and the management of it was committed to mr. sidney , to send some fit person into scotland , to treat with the male-contents there ; and the better to carry on this joynt design , some of them were to come up to london . and they were to have a pretence to treat about going to carolina , and the purchasing some shares in the plantation there , of which my lord shaftsbury was a chief governour . we shall prove to you , gentlemen , besides all that i have opened , that the person to whom that trust was committed , mr. sidney , according to the duty that he had taken upon him , does employ one aaron smith , which all that know him , do know him to be a fit engine for such counsellors , and a fit instrument for such a conspiracy . we shall prove he actually was in scotland , and that he went into scotland upon this errand . and then we shall prove , that those gentlemen that were sent to , and were the persons named in their consults to be treated with , came here soon after to town , and as soon as ever this plot was discovered , they fled and absconded themselves . gentlemen , if we shall prove all this matter to you , i think it will be without any question clear , that this gentleman is notoriously guilty of this high misdemeanour . and indeed , if you observe it , one of the persons has given judgment against himself , the earl of essex . but the party have been so diligent and officious as to fling that upon the government ; but that matter we shall have before the court in judgment to morrow . for two of the others they have received the judgment of the law ; for two more of them the king has been pleased to take them into his mercy ; the one is my lord howard , who is summoned to appear here to day ; the other is the duke of monmouth , who has confessed all this matter , and has taken his pardon , and we have summoned him also to be here this day ; that the world , if they will have their eyes opened ( i mean the discontented world ) may see there is nothing sought but the peace and quieting of the kingdom . gentlemen , if we prove all this matter to you , i shall be glad to hear the defence of the counsel , and the defence made by witnesses upon oath . mr. sol. gen. my lord , we will call our witnesses , and first we begin with the duke of monmouth . mr. att. gen. call james duke of monmouth . cryer . james , duke of monmouth . mr. att. gen. call him again . cryer . james , duke of monmouth . l. ch. just . was he served with a subpoena ? mr. att. gen. my lord , we will prove we have served him in all places where he was like to be met with ; that we left subpoenas with his servants , who promised to deliver them to him . l. ch. just . prove it . mr. att. gen. where is mr. atterbury ? swear him which was done pray will you give the court an account , whether you did serve the d. of monmouth with any subpoena ? in what places you were to serve him , and who you left it with ? mr. atterb . my lord , on fryday last was seven-night , i was commanded by mr. attorney general to carry a subpoena to serve upon the duke of monmouth , and to go to his house at moor parke , where it was generally discoursed he was . i did go and take a subpoena from mr. burton , by mr. attorney's order , and went to the duke's house at moor parke . when i came there , the outward gate was locked , and i went to an house where the keys are kept , and having got the keys , i went down to the house , and i saw there one of his servants fothering of cattle ; and coming up to him , i asked him if the duke of monmouth was in the house ? he told me , he could not well tell , whether he was or not , but he thought he was gone to london , for he saw the calash , and or horsemen with it , and they said in the house , that it was the duke that was gone to london . i asked if there were any servants that were nearer to his grace in the house , that i might speak with ? they said , yes , there was the house-keeper or steward , one mr. rawkins that attended upon the duke . i desired to speak with him , and he came out to me ; i asked him if the duke was there ? he seemed to be unwilling to give me an answer . i asked him the second time ; but he did not say he was , or he was not . i told him then , i had a subpoena , which i brought with me by mr. attorney general 's order , to serve upon his grace , which was to require him to attend here this day , to testifie his knowledge in a case between the king and mr. hambden . he told me , sir , said he , give me your subpoena , and i will take care the duke shall have it . he took it of me , and i came back to london presently . assoon as i came to town , i had a second subpena given me to serve upon his grace , with which i went to the dukes house at the cock-pit . when i came there i spake with the porter , i think his name is johnson , ( b●● the porter he is , and i remember him a servant there many years ) i asked him if the duke were there ? he told me he did not lodge there . i told him i had a subpoena to serve upon his grace to appear as this day , the same as i said at moor park . says he , mr. atterbury , i will take care the duke shall have it to night , or to morrow morning early . l. ch. just . when was this ? mr. atterbury . it was of the same day , friday was seven-night last . i was told afterwards by one that i met with , that the duke did lodge at mr. row's house , who is a servant to the duke , one of his gentlemen . he lives in the pall mall , 't is either his house or his lodging , but they call it his house . i had a d subpoena given me to the same effect . and when i came there , i asked for the duke , and a woman came to the door , mrs. manley ( i think they call her ) she seemed to make little answer to what i said . said i , pray will you give this subpoena to the duke , or to mr. row to give it the duke ? she took it of me , and said , she would give it mr. row certainly to give to the duke . and yesterday , or the day before , i met mr. row at white-hall , and says he to me , mr. atterbury , you brought a subpoena to my house a little while ago ? yes , sir , said i , i did , had you it ? yes , i had the subpoena , says he . then says i , i hope you gave the duke it ? to that he made me no answer , but nodded his head , and smiled , and went away . l. ch. just . now call his grace again . cryer . james duke of monmouth . but he did not appear . mr. att. gen. call william lord howard . who was in the court. pray swear my lord howard . which was done mr. att. gen. my lord howard , pray will you be pleased to give the court and the jury an account what you know of any meeting by the gentleman that is now accused and the duke of monmouth , my lord russel , your self and others , and when ? tell what you know ? l. howard . my lord , in january last was month , about the midst of january i was called out by colonel sidney , being then in my lodgings in southampton-street , and carried by him to mr. hambden's house , i do not know what they call the street , but the same side of the way with the fine house that is in bloomesbury — mr. jones . by my lord mountagues house that now is , you mean ? l. howard . yes , of the same side of the way . when i came there , there was my lord russel , and the duke of monmouth , colonel sidney and i went together , mr. hambden was then in the room where they were . afterwards came in my lord of essex , this made up six . when they were there , we fell into discourses — mr. att. gen. pray my lord , before you come to tell the particular discourses , give an account how , and upon what grounds you came to have this juncto of six ? l. c. just . if you please , my lord , pray give an account of the preliminary passages . l. howard . my lord , after the disappointment given to an undertaking that was begun by my lord shaftesbury , which was in october or november before , in november he dyed . after that , truly i cannot say , but that colonel sidney and my self might be , and were the two first that did give the rise to it . for being in discourse , we said it was absolutely necessary that there should be some council erected to give some steadiness to the motions — l. ch. just . my lord , i would not willingly interrupt you . but you seem to speak of a disappointment given to an undertaking by my lord shaftsbury . pray what was that undertaking ? l. howard . your lordship has heard of that before , and know it very well . l. ch. just . tho' we know it , the jury do not . they have not heard it judicially at least . l. howard . because it has been in the printed books , every body i suppose knows it . l. c. j. but that they cannot judicially take notice of . l. howard . that is something a long history , my lord· l. c j. tho' it be we must hear it . mr. att. gen. pray make it as short as you can my lord. l. howard . so much as i can give accompt of is this . it was about the day after michale's day that i came to my own house having been before in essex , and that i think was saturday . the monday following captain walcott came to me and dined with me , and after dinner told me my lord of shaftsbury had left his house , and had betaken himself to a private lodging , and had hid himself from the rest of his friends ; but had a great kindness for me , ( which kindness truly i wish he had spared ) and desired to see me , i took time to consider of it ; but i bid him go back to my lord of shaftsbury and tell him if he had any thing of an extraordinary nature to acquaint me with , i would come and assist him all i could . he came the next day again and shewed me to my lord shaftsbury's lodgings : he lodged then at one watson's house a citizen , i know not what street they call it ; but it was in a little street down by wood-street . and when i came to him , i found my lord shaftsbury very much differing from what he used to be , which was more cautious , and presently he fell to tell me that he was forced to withdraw himself from his own house , for fear of being attacked again by sham-charges and plots , and false evidence as he had before : for now he said , he saw they had the possession of all juries by having those sheriffs which were imposed upon the city , as he said , and he could not think his own life or any mans life safe ; for to be accused was sufficient to bring his life into very great danger , and for that reason he had with drawn himself to that private retirement ; and being there he was resolved to make some speedy push for recovering of the liberties of england , that there was preparation made in the city of several of men that were all in readiness to rise , and that for his part he was resolved to be set on horse-back ; for get on horse-back he could not ; and that there were great numbers that were ready when he did but hold up his finger to be drawn together at any time : that divers had been drawn out of the country to joyn with them by insensible parties of horse , i think he named about fourscore or an hundred . which since i found were to be headed by col. romsey upon the day of making and declaring the sheriffs ; but finding there was nothing done , he withdrew himself and his man thither ; but there was such a general preparation in the city , that if some lords did not unhandsomely desert them they should be in readiness for action quickly . i askt him who he meant ? he told me , the duke of monmouth and my lord russel had very unhandsomely deserted him ; for they had promised and undertaken to be in readiness with men out of several countreys in which they had an interest , he named somersetshire , devonshire , and cheshire , i think , and that my lord gray should be disposed of into essex to do the same there , and if they had held on this resolution it had been such a sure game that it could not have failed : but says he , they are started , and say they cannot be in readiness to do it . my lord , i very much wonder that those persons you named should ingage in any design , and fail of performing what they promised ! says he , i 'll assure you 't is so . and so he proceded to speak several sharp things of the duke of monmouth upon the account of his ambition , that he thought to have all under his command : which was a secret lurking ambition in him , that he said , he always suspected the duke to be guilty of . and now he found his suspitions true . that unless he might command all , he would do nothing . but for his part since he found the matter so , he was resolved to go on alone rather than fail in his design . said i , my lord , i should be very forward to concurr with you in any thing ; but i wonder your lordship should step into an action of such danger thus divided from those that are most likely to assist you in it . i cannot help it , said he , i have left my house and must go on . my lord , said i , pray give me leave to go to the duke of monmouth and expostulate the matter with him and i will come and give you an accompt again . says he , 't is to no purpose , i dare say . said i , my lord , pray let me go and try , for i would not have you divided , but i will promise you this , i will not tell him i come from you , but as from my self discourse it with the duke . well , said he , if you will you may . this was upon tuesday , i think the d. of october , the d. or th . so i went to the duke of monmouth the next day which was wednesday , and finding him not at home at his house in sohoe , and being told he was at moor-park , i took an occasion to go to moor-park , and i came there a little after dinner , and took him aside , and told him all this that i now have spoken about my lord of shaftsbury . says he , i think the man is mad , what does he mean ? we did undertake to do this 't is true ; but not by that time he speaks of , and things are not ready , i know not what his own fears make him do ; but he does act so preposterously that he will undo us all . said i , my lord , all that i shall desire is , that there may be an interview betwixt you , and discourse the thing with one another , or else it may be a thing of very fatal consequence for him to step into an action of this danger and concern while you are thus divided . with all my heart , says the duke , i would have nothing more , i desire to speak with him . this made me recoil back again to my lord of shaftsbury the next day , and i told him all this , and desired he would give a meeting , says he , i see they are false then to say they did not engage , they were engaged , and that against this time too , the confirmation and swearing of the sheriffs ; and now for me to meet with them , i know i shall run out into passion and anger , and therefore 't is better omitted . said i , my lord , i must positively insist upon it . i must have an interview between you , for 't is a madness for you to go on thus divided in so great a business . i could not prevail , he would not ; but he told me , if i would i might go to them from him , and let them know i had been with him ; ( for before i pretended to have it from a third hand , and not from my lord himself , ) and if they would be in a readiness with what they promised from the countrey , he would ask nothing from the city , he would take that place upon himself , if they would perform their engagement for other parts ; but he resolved to go on . so i went to the duke of monmouth's again , and told him , what he said , that i could not by any means get him to an interview . says the duke , he is a strange man , i know not what to do with him , we will all be in readiness assoon as we can ; but it is impossible to do it so soon . i went to my lord of shaftsbury again on the saturday , and did then positively engage him that he would give a meeting to me , and the duke of monmouth , and some others . and we appointed time and place , he appointed to come out in a parsons habit , and a black perrywig to his own house , which he thought the safest place , because he would not discover his lodging to any of them for fear it should come to be known . with these instructions i came to the duke of monmouth to prepare him about it , and proffered him to be ready the next day at evening with my lord russel to go to him . all this while i had not spoken to my lord russel , but only to the duke of monmouth . and the next day when i came from church to my own house , there met me a message from colonel romsey , who i understood by my servants had been there , and left his name . with this message , that he came to tell me the gentleman that was to meet could not meet . this was so confused a matter that i was impatient till i knew the meaning of it . i took my coach and went directly to the duke of monmouths again , and he told me colonel romsey had been with him and told him , my lord of shaftsbury was apprehensive there were a great many tories about his house , and he feared being discovered , and therefore had remov'd his lodging , and so could not meet ; but we should hear from him in two or three days . so that was the last time that i saw my lord of shaftsbury , or indeed in a direct line did hear from him ; collaterally by walcott i did afterwards hear ; but by this means we were at a loss . after this the duke of monmouth did tell me ( for he did not own to me that he saw him , but indeed swore to me he did not see him ; but i find since he ( did . that he would do what he could to prevent any untimely dangerous undertaking . but after this it seems they had a meeting at mr. shepherds house , where my lord shaftsbury sent a message to him and my lord russel ; but the duke of monmouth only told me that my lord russel had met with him , and seen him ; but he never owned that he had met him himself , or seen him . about four or five days after , captain walcott came to me , and told me such a day was set for the riseing . upon which being startl'd , i had nothing to do , but recoyl back to the duke of monmouth , and endeavour to stop any rash proceedings , and it was stopped as i thought , and so it continued for two or three days , and at that time , which was in october there was a rumor up and down whispered as if something would be attempted ; but what it was we did not know , but thus it went on for two or three days , and then it meeting with a disappointment upon the consultation at mr. shepherds , my lord shaftsbury took up his resolution to be gone , and went away to holland , and dyed in holland . this is the substance of that accompt which i can give of those former transactions . mr. att. gen. now give an accompt of what was subsequent to this . lord howard , this was in november . after this there being frequent conferences between colonel sidney and me ; for colonel sidney by the way knew nothing of all this , and i was caution'd by my lord shaftsbury that i should not tell my friend sidney any thing of it , and asking him the reason , why i should not ? says he , i can't well tell ; but you will wonder when i tell you that his own friend major wildman has barred him and would not let him know it . the gentleman is now dead ; but i will assure you he did know nothing of this for a month after : for he was gone into the countrey ; but after my lord shaftsbury was dead , i told him the history of all these transactions , which he was before a stranger to . after this , when i had acquainted him with what had been intended in london , and what preparations had been made , and how what was intended had been suppressed , and in what posture affairs then stood . we then took up a resolution to form a council that might for the time to come give such directions as might regulate the motions of this affair . thereupon we began to think of the persons who they should be . he undertook to speak to my lord of essex and mr. hambden , and i was to bring the duke of monmouth to a right understanding with him in it . so i went to the duke of monmouth , and told him col. sidney did present his service to him , and would willingly wait on him , but that he thought it would do him hurt , because he was a person of such note , and thereupon so obnoxious that it might prejudice him to have him seen to come to him ; and therefore if his grace would please to appoint any third place , he should be very glad to kiss his hand . says the duke , i do not know any where truly to appoint . why then , said i , i will tell you a place : let us e'en go to his house ( having before prepared colonel sidney for it ) and take him by surprise and dine with him , and then there will be the less suspicion . but , said i , you must not expect to be treated as the duke of monmouth , because he does not expect you ; but take him as a philosopher , and dine with him as he uses to dine at his own table . says the duke of monmouth , i care not for entertainment ; i will go with you : and there at that time did the duke of monmouth undertake to bring in my lord russel and my lord of salisbury . this was the only discourse preparatory to it that ever i knew of . within a fortnight or three weeks after ; nay , i think it was less than ten days after , colonel sidney came to me , and told me , my lord of essex was very forward in it . the duke of monmouth would prepare my lord russel , and my lord salisbury ; and he himself did not doubt but mr. hambden was very willing to be in it too ; and they had appointed a meeting at mr. hambden's house , and he would carry me thither to the house ; and this was the first meeting that i knew of ; and there we met all six . mr. att. gen. about what time was that ? lord howard . it was about the middle of january ; and truly i think i could reduce it to a certain day or two by the persons where i lodged . mr. att. gen. what was debated there ? lord howard . when we came there every one discoursed what he would . there was a discourse of the time and places where to rise ; but among other things it was resolved as a principal point , that there should be a preparation made for the design , by a treaty with those of scotland , and an understanding setled with argyle , and a messenger sent to my lord argyle and others . and before this was done , we could not be ripe for any resolution : but this must be speedily done . l. ch. just . pray , my lord , give me your favour , i would not interrupt you ; but to make things clear as we go , i desire to ask you , when you came first to mr. hambden's house , who spake first , when you were all met together ? lord howard , every body discoursed what they pleased . l. ch. just . but who gave an account of the reason of the meeting ? will you please to recollect , and tell what you know who began the discourse ? lord howard . something introductive to it was said by mr. hambden , we being at his house , as 't is natural to conceive for any gentleman at whose house people are met , to say , pray let us sit down , and talk of our business . something leading and introductive was said by him . l. ch. just . pray , my lord , as near as you can remember , will you give an account what was the thing he began to discourse of ? did he seem to take any notice , or have any knowledge of your meeting , and other things before ? lord howard , it was a general hint and intimation to us of the ends of our meeting , that we were there come to consult and advise one with another how to put things into a better method and posture than formerly : and he desired that we would sit down and discourse of these things . my lord , i would not charge my self with particulars positively . mr. attorn . gen. upon what questions did you debate and consult , my lord ? lord howard , those were started severally . some would speak of the time when it should be , whether it were not convenient now or when ? others offered something concerning the places , whether it should be begun in the city or in the country , or both together . others took it into consideration what persons were to be prepared in the several countreys to be assisting in it that were probable to carry it on . and then some discoursed concerning the raising of money , and then what summ should be raised , and i think that was started by the duke of monmouth ; but i am sure the summ that he named was or l. the last thing that was talked of , but which was concluded to be the thing principally to be taken care of , was the setling such a concurrence and correspondence with scotland that they might chime in at the same time , that so we might give as many diversions both from home and abroad as could be at one and the same time . mr. att. gen. my lord howard , did mr. hambden discourse of this matter ? lord howard , i cannot speak to the discourse of any one in particular ; for i cannot say it was put to the vote as we formerly express it , but it may be said we were all consenting and concurring . lord ch. just , did any of you dissent from the riseing ? lord howard , no , no my lord. mr. att. gen. did any of you oppose it at all ? lord howard , no , no , that was discoursed of as a thing resolved . l. c. j. i ask you this question , my lord howard , was there any sort of complaint made of the government , that it was uneasie and that occasioned you to enter into these debates ? l. howard , there was i cannot say a complaint , because there was no person to complain to ; but it was spoken of as a matter of great grievance , that such a force and violence should be put upon the city in their election of officers , and the tendency of that as to all juryes tho' i cannot distinctly remember the particular things . l. c. j. you say you were talking of a messenger to be sent into scotland to my lord of argyle and others to chime in with you in this matter as you say , pray did you come to any resolution about that , and what did you resolve upon ? l. howard , that there should be one only at that time . and afterwards it was the matter of the debate at the next meeting , which was that meeting at my lord russels , which was about this time twelve-month in february sometime . mr. a. gen. how long after the first meeting at mr. hambden's was that ? l. howard , my lord , i think it was about a fortnight . mr. att. gen. who was there ? l. howard , the same persons that met before . but then there was little spoken of but the business of scotland . l. c. j. was mr. hambden there at the second meeting ? l. howard , he was there . l. c. j. at my lord russels you say it was ? l. howard , yes . mr. att. gen. what resolution did you come to then ? l. howard , then we came to a resolution that some body should be sent , and we began to discourse who was sit , and col. sidney he propounded aaron smith , to some of the company he was known , to others not ; but those that did know him did approve of him as a fit person . mr. att. gen. to whose province was that comitted of sending this person into scotland ? l. howard , col. sidney undertook it himself . mr. att. gen. did the rest consent to it ? l. howard , yes , no body did oppose it ; but left it to him . l. c. j. did you name the person then that was to go ? l. howard , he was not so named as to be with any solemnity approved or disproved ; but it was left to col. sidney to manage it , and he naming smith as a fit person ( he told us that by the by not to put it to the question for our approbation ) and some of us knew the person , others did not . i was one that did know him , and did think him a very fit man to send . l. c. j. pray , my lord , who was the person ? be pleased to tell the jury so as they may know it . l. howard , aaron smith . mr. j. withins , had you any discourse with col. sidney , my lord , afterwards that he was sent ? l. howard , yes , my lord. l. c. j. pray give an account of that ? l. howard , about three or four days after this meeting at my lord russels , i went to visit col. sidney at his house , and while i was there in the room , he went to his cabinet , and out of a drawer where there was five or six hundred pound in gold as i could guess , he took a good many pieces , i do not know directly how many ; but he took out so many as he said was threescore guineys that he was going to carry to aaron smith , i went not in my own coach , and therefore went away with him in his coach , and he set me down at southampton street at my own lodging . i went no further , but he did , and he told me afterwards it was conveyed to him , and that he did go . l. c. j. how long was that after your second meeting at my lord russels where you say you intrusted col. sidney to send one into scotland ? l. howard , i think it may be less then a week , four or five days , that i saw him carry the money . after this he said , he had given him this money , and was gone : and when he was dispatched , in a week after i was making enquiries after him , and col. sidney said , he had not heard of him since he went away ; but about a fortnight or three weeks col. sidney said he had heard of him , that he was at new-castle and stay'd there ; but he wondered he could hear no more of him . i then went into essex , and when i came back from thence , he told me , he was come , but i had never seen him , not to this day , indeed i had once appointed a meeting with him at mr. west's chamber ; but something or other happened , we did not meet . mr. att. gen. we have done with my lord howard , if they will ask him any questions they may . l. ch. j. they know their time , when the kings attorney has done with any witness then they may examine him , if they please . if they will not call your other witnesses . mr. att. gen. will you ask him any questions ? mr. jones . no , no , by advice they are to ask him nothing . mr. att. gen. we shall give your lordship and the jury an account in the next place , that we have traced aaron smith into scotland . and for that we shall call some witnesses which indeed we did not produce before at any tryal , because we had not then discovered so much . we shall bring you the person at whose house he lay at new-castle , and the very messenger that was sent with him to conduct him a by-way into scotland . call sheriffe and bell. l. c. j. look you gentlemen , you that are at the bar , there you must let the jury stand by themselves . i see there are a great many others intermingled with them , and you gentlemen of the jury , if any whisperer talk to you , we expect that you should tell us who they are ; for we will suffer no remarks to be made but what are openly made to the court , and the jury by the counsel of both sides . mr. att. gen. swear sheriffe and bell which was done m. williams , what is this man's name mr. att. ? friend what is your name ? witness , my name is sheriffe , mr. at. gen. pray give my lord and the jury an account what you know of any person that lay at your house some time since and whether you have seen him since ? my lord this gentleman did not know aaron smith before , and therefore i desire mr. atterbury may be called and examined again . mr. atterbury , do you know aaron smith ? mr. atterbury , yes , i know him very well . mr. att. gen. had this gentleman a view of aaron smith ? mr. atterbury , yes , he had . he was brought where aaron smith was , and this other person was by before him too , and i was by when they had a view of him . mr. att. gen. now pray give an accompt what you know of the man you saw ? mr. sol. gen. where is aaron smith ? mr. atterbury , he is in the kings bench prison , and he was brought by habeas corpus to white-hall before the king. where these two persons were brought likewise , and there this man sheriffe did own that aaron smith was the man that was at his house ; and the other bell owned that he travelled towards scotland with him , and that he was hired to shew him the way into scotland . mr. att. gen. did aaron smith say any thing ? mr. atterbury , he would not answer any thing at all , nor say a word . mr. att. gen. pray give an account mr. sheriffe , who it was that lay at your house , and when it was , and what he said was his business , and by what name he went ? mr. sheriffe , indeed his business i did not know ; but he was at our house about the middle of february , it was there abouts . l. c. j. when was it ? what february ? mr. sheriffe , the last february . mr. att. gen. you say he was at your house last february , pray tell the court where that is ? mr. sheriff , at new-castle . mr. att. gen , do you keep any inn there ? mr. sheriffe , yes . mr. att. gen. what sign ? mr. sheriffe . the sign of the black-spread eagle . mr. att. gen. and what did he do there ? mr. sheriffe , he stayed there one night and went away , and returned again in twelve days or thereabouts , and came to my house again . mr. att. gen. whither did he go from you ? mr. sheriffe . he went southward as i suppose , i know no further . mr. att. gen. but when he first came to your house , which way went he ? mr. sheriffe . he went northward towards scotland , as he himself said , and desired to have one to shew him the way : and i sent for this man , and when he came to him he hired him to go with him , and i was by . l. c. j. when he first came to your house about the middle of february was twelve month , whither was he bound then , northward or southward ? mr. sheriffe , he was going to scotland , that is northward . l. c. j. and you say after he came back again , and lay another night at your house . mr. sheriffe , yes , ten or twelve days after he did . l. c. j. and which way went he then ? mr. sheriffe , then he came southwards towards london . l. c. j. did you take exact notice of the man ? mr. sheriffe , yes , i saw him before his majesty and the council . l c. j. and upon your oath that same man you saw there was the same man that lodged at your house in february was month ? mr. sheriffe , yes , it is . mr. att. gen. what name did he go by at your house ? mr. sheriffe , he went under the name of mr. clerke , but what his sirname was i can't tell . l. c. j. had he a servant with him ? mr. sheriffe , he had a man with him that stay'd at our house during the time of his going northward ? mr. att. gen. what did he call his name . mr. sheriffe , wil. langston . mr. att. gen. did he desire you to furnish him with a guide ? mr. sheriffe , he told me his servant did not know the way , and his horse was a little lamish , and desired me to get a guide for him . for after he had dined at our house it happened to be a rainy day , and he could not go further that night , and therefore desired me to get him a man that knew that countrey , and i sent for this same man , and he hired him ; and he went along with him next morning , my lord. mr. att. gen. whither was he to go ? mr. sheriffe , truly i did not know ; but he told me he did not know the way into scotland , and i directed him to a gentlemans house at jadbrough in the way . lord ch. just . is that the road to scotland ? mr. sheriffe , yes , the high road to one part of scotland . l. c. j. did he tell you to what part or place of scotland he was to go ? mr. sheriffe , he named the west of scotland , i think he named douglas , but i do not know what place certainly he designed for . mr. at. gen. then where is bell ? bell , here. mr. at. gen. had you a view of this man they call aaron smith ? bell , yes , i had . mr. at. gen. give an accompt , whether you saw him in the northand when and where . bell , this man , mr. sheriffe , sent for me . i live at new-castle and there i keep hackney horses to serve any gentlemen , or be a guide to them as there is occasion , and mr. sheriffe sent for me , and when i came he told me the gentleman wanted a guide into scotland . we immediately agreed , it was upon thursday night before that we call easter eve. lord ch. just . when was it say you ? bell , it was the thursday before easters-even , so they call it with us , that is shrove-tuesday . l. c. j. ay , they call it so in those places , because 't is the even of the fast of ash-wednesday , the beginning of lent — well go on . bell , we went away on friday the next morning on our journey towords jadbrough , and the d day which was saturday in the afternoon my horse tired , whereupon he left me with my horse and took the mans man of the house where he left me to guide him , for my horse would not ride up with him being tired , and he resolving to go on , and he bid me follow him on the sunday morning to jadbrough town , which i did , and we stayed there all sunday . and on monday morning i saw him take horse and another man that was his guide , and away they went , as i think , he said towards douglas he was going . and he pay'd me , and i returned again from him to new-castle and left him . l. c. j. pray how far was this , you say you went with him to jadbrough , how far distant is that from new-castle ? bell. to jadbrough my lord ? l. c. just . yes . bell. 't is forty miles my lord. l. c. just . how near scotland is it ? bell. 't is within some six miles of the english border . l. c. just . did you see him at any time after that ? bell. i saw him at his coming back again ; being at sheriffs house , his wife asked me if i would go up and see the gentleman that i went with towards scotland : so i went up , and he made me eat and drink at the table with him . mr. att. gen. what name did he go by ? bell. he went by the name of clerk. mr. att. gen. was there any servant with him ? bell. there was a man that came with him as a servant there , and was all the time at new-castle , that he was gone towards scotland , till he came back again . l. c. just . mr. attorney , did this man see smith at the time the other saw him ? bell. yes , i did . l. c. just . and is that the man that went by the name of clerk at new-castle , and that you went with towards scotland ? bell. yes , it is . mr. atterbury . and when they charged him with it , aaron smith did not deny it . mr. att. gen. did you go any by-road to get into scotland ? bell. no , 't is the road gentlemen usually go to jadbrough , and so on ; because 't is something the nearer way to that part of scotland , as we judge it to be , therefore gentlemen use it . mr. att. gen. is it an high-open-road ? bell. yes , 't is the high-open way to that part of the country . mr. att. gen. my lord howard , pray were the names of any of the scotch-men mentioned at your meeting , that were to be sent for ? l. howard . yes ; there was my lord melvin , sir john cockram , and one cambell . mr. att. gen. now , my lord , we will give you an account , that as smith went into scotland , so these persons soon after came into england . jury-man . my lord , we desire that my lord howard would name those scotch-men that were to come . l. howard . there was my lord melvin , sir john cockram , and one cambel , one that was of my lord argyles name and family ; and there was another name , but i can't remember what that name was . mr. att. gen. we shall give you an account , my lord , that they came immediately after this to town ; and at the breaking out of the plot , they absconded . l. c. just . mr. attorney , has my lord howard his pardon ? mr. attorney . yes , my lord , he has . l. c. just . then your lordship may be covered . l. howard . i can't tell , but they may ask me some questions . mr. att. gen. then you may be uncovered when they ask them , in the mean time your lordship may be covered . swear sir andrew foster which was done . pray sir , will you tell my lord and the jury what you know about the cambell's , and sir john cockram's being in town ? or any other scotch-men that you know of ? sir andrew foster . my lord , i did see those gentlemen in the beginning of last summer . sir john cockram , and mr. monrow , and cambell the son , i did see ; but the father i did not , but i do know he was in town , tho i saw him not . mr. att. gen. how do you know it ? sir andrew foster . i had messages from them . l. c. just . sir andrew , you say , you saw sir john cockram , and monrow ? sir andrew foster ; yes . l. c. just . did you see any body else ? sir andrew foster . i saw sir george campell the son. mr. att. gen. what became of them upon the discovery of the plot ? sir andrew foster . sir john cockram did abscond , and mr. monrow was taken into custody . mr. att. gen. what became of the others ? sir andrew foster . the campells were both in custody . mr. att. gen. did you see any commission they had ? sir andrew foster . i did see a commission that sir john cockram had . mr. att. gen. what was it for ? sir andrew foster . to make a purchase of some plantations beyond sea , i think it was carolina . l. c. just . ay , where my lord shaftsbury had an interest . sir andrew foster . it was some of the west-indies . l. howard . i did omit that passage my lord — mr. att. gen. pray was it discoursed then , what should be the blind for these gentlemen that were notorious dissenters , that they should come to town from scotland about ? l. howard . it was to carry on a plantation in carolina . the scotch gentlemen were personally known to my lord russel only ; and my lord russel was to write the letter to them , and , i suppose , did . mr. att. gen. mr. atterbury , what do you know of these scotch-men coming to town ; and what became of them afterwards ? mr. atterbury . my lord , about the beginning of july , fourth , fifth , or sixth , or thereabouts , i had some information , that there were some scotch gentlemen that had been shifting up and down , and at that time were about black-fryers , lodged there secretly . i immediately went with the king's proclamation , and some warrants that i had to apprehend some traytors that were fled : and when i came , i found that mr. common serjeant having notice of them , had beat up their quarters , and they were endeavouring to escape by water ; but there they were catched . there was sir hugh campel , and bayley , and sir george campel , and some others , i know not the names of them all ; truly i can't tell whether monrow was not another , but sir hugh campel i had in my custody , and bayley was immediately committed to the gate-house ; and the rest of the gentlemen i afterwards took in a cunning hole by moor-fields , in a back house . and when i came there , i found them lyeing on the bed in the middle of the day ; and had them prisoners in my custody two or three months ; and then they were all sent out of my hands into scotland prisoners . six of them there were , my lord , that i saw . mr. att. gen. we have done my lord , only we desire that a word of a record may be read . mr. williams . what record is it sir ? mr. att. gen. of collonel sidneys attainder . mr. williams . my lord , we shall desire your judgment , whether that record ought to be read against mr. hambden ; i perceive by mr. attorney , that 't is a record of the conviction of mr. sidney , which ought not to be given in evidence against mr. hambden upon this indictment . mr. att. gen. we make use of it , to shew how upon former tryals , upon this evidence , verdicts have gone . mr. williams . we are in your judgment , my lord , if by law it may be given in evidence against mr. hambden , who is neither party nor privy to it , nor indicted for the same offence . mr. att. gen. let it alone then . l. c. just . well , mr. attorney does not press it . what say you to it , gentlemen , for the defendant ? mr. williams . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am of counsel for mr. hambden the defendant upon this indictment here before you . this indictment is a severe indictment : it is a very high crime of which my clyent is accused . how far the evidence tends to reach it , you have heard ; and i shall , with the patience of the court , particularly observe it to you . but i shall first speak to the indictment it self : it saies , that mr. hambden being a person of a turbulent disposition , and seditiously intending to disturb and disquiet the king's peace , and to stir sedition , and to bring the government into danger , did conspire , &c. as to this matter , gentlemen , there is no manner of proof of what the indictment charges , as to the disposition of the person accused ; nor that he had any other design , than what my lord howard hath now sworn . then it saies further , that mr. hambden did consult and conspire with divers persons to execute these purposes ; and particularly for the making and raising of an insurrection in the kingdom . this is laid as the particular fact : and for this purpose , he did further conspire with several persons , to provide armes and armed-men : and for their fulfilling of this , he did further consult with several persons , that some persons should be sent into scotland to stir up the kings subjects in scotland , to a concurrence and conjunction with some people in england , about this his evil design . how far this indictment is proved , upon the defendant , gentlemen , is the question before you . he has pleaded not guilty , and hopes to satisfy you he is not . gentlemen , as to what evidence has been given you so far as 't is positive , and affirmative ; i mean the testimony of my lord howard in that part , it is impossible for us that are of counsel for the defendant directly to contradict him with proof , or to give a direct positive proof in answer to it : i say 't is impossible for us to contradict him , who gives such a positive evidence of fact. by the evidence of my lord howard , he tells us there were six persons in this council , as he is pleased to call them . by his evidence , three of the six are dead , my l. russel , col. sidney , and the earl of essex ; he himself is the fourth , the defendant is the fifth , who cannot give evidence for himself ; and the duke of monmouth , who is the sixth , being away , there is not any person in being , that should contradict my lord howard's affirmative in this part of his evidence but the duke of monmouth : whom we cannot have here , since it appears by the evidence mr. att. gen. could not prevail to have him at this tryal ; therefore proof of that nature cannot be reasonably expected from my clyent , to acquit himself by a positive contradiction of what my lord howard has sworn . then in this case we must , as in all cases where a person does swear directly against a defendant , endeavour to satisfie and perswade your lordship and the jury upon circumstances arising out of this fact , and further circumstances attending the fact , and by probable arguments and reasonable inductions out of the evidence , that this gentleman , the defendant , is not guilty of what he is charged with . in the first place , we shall observe upon the testimony of my lord howard , that as to some things he is very positive , and particular : he has an incomparable memory , and speaks particularly to persons , particularly to places , particularly to times . but gentlemen , as to that which is the principal part of his evidence , and which most affects the defendant , and wherein it concernes us to contradict or disprove him , he is wanting as to that circumstance of time. he that is so exact in his memory as to other circumstances , is not positive , nor any thing like positive , as to the times of the meeting . for they would imagine , that the first meeting the defendant was concerned in , was at his own house . he describes the house and the place very exactly , but as for the time , he only sayes it was about the middle of january : he carries other things in his memory positively ; and whether it might not be expected in a case so remarkable as this , and which so nearly and highly concerned himself , that he should be as particular in the time , as he is in other things , you may rationally judge . his lordship sometimes is very particular as to time : he tells you in his relation about my lord shaftsbury , that his going to him , was on the saturday after michaelmasday ; and then he pursues it to the second and third of october . he is positive to many several days ; upon which i would observe , that he being particular to a day , as to other things , may well be expected to be ready , ( if it be true , ) to be as particular as to the time of this meeting : but therein he is to seek ; he is doubtful as to that . and you must give us leave gentlemen , to make this observation , that since he will not be particular to that time , we do apprehend that he gives himself a little loose , that we may not meet with him to contradict him in that circumstance : for if he should be positive therein , as he is in the other matters that concern not the defendant , we might perhaps by clear pregnant circumstances contradict , if not disprove his lordship , that it is not probable , ( if possible , ) it should be true what he affirmes . but gentlemen , we must answer it as well as we can ; and since he is so cautious , we must meet him by arguments in another way . another thing we should observe upon my lords evidence , is this ; that my lord , tho he be particular as to many facts and things relating to my lord shaftsbury , where he names other particular persons , i think coll. romsey and walcot , and names the particular discourses , particularly instancing in them between him and my lord of shaftsbury , between him and walcot , and between him and other persons ; yet he has not made use of any one circumstance of fact in this case of the defendant's now before you , that does justify what he has said , save only that of aaron smith ; not any one circumstance of fact. so that there is no more than the bare saying of what my lord howard is pleased to deliver no more than his oath , nay , no more than his observation , and inference of much of what passed in the company of several persons , without any concurring circumstances in fact to justify or confirm his testimony . it might have been an easy matter , if all that my lord howard sayes was true , that there was such a meeting at mr. hambden's house by such and such persons , to prove that such persons , or some of them , met there . but that there should be no person to prove , that these gentlemen , or any of them , were there ; nor any other fact or circumstance in the world , to go along with my lord howard to justify his asseveration , is very wonderful , and may well make it doubtful that it should not be true : and the rather gentlemen , ( if it be true as my lord howard would have it ) because there was a second meeting of all these persons at my lord russel's , which was so publick and open a place , and yet no man to concur or go along with my lord howard in any one thing ; no particular fact assigned to justify his testimony as to this meeting , is strange , if it be true . so then gentlemen , there is no more than what my lord howard has sworn , without any one circumstance to back it , to prove the defendant guilty . my lord , taking this upon the main of my lord howards evidence , it will be pretty hard too upon the nature of the fact , that he is pleased to prove against this gentleman , to make an answer to it : and truly , i think as hard for you to believe it . gentlemen , he would imagine , that there should be men raised , men armed , a discourse of money , and this done , as he would have it , about the middle of january ; and yet nothing at all done , though there appears no manner of discovery of this very evil contrivance , till about july . neither is there any thing done in order to the raising of men , the arming of men , or the levying of money all this while . so that there is no one fact of any kind whatsoever , that goes along with what my lord howard has said . my lord and gentlemen , another thing we would desire to observe , is this , and here we shall begin with what we have to say , as to our own arguments and circumstances , that we have to take off from the testimony of my lord howard in this case : in the first place , it appears by the evidence of my lord howard , that he was very deep in a conspiracy against the government , and to make a disturbance in the kingdom long before this , that he now speaks of against the defendant , that is plain enough ; for he tells you , that my lord shaftesbury and he at michaelmass were contriving of projects to overturn the government , and raise a rebellion . it appears plainly by his evidence , that my lord shaftesbury , when he left his house , was resolved upon it , and my lord howard was very solicitous to carry on the same design ; nay , he was so active in it , that he tells you , that he did create messages between my lord of shaftesbury , and the duke of monmouth , and would needs go by a false insinuation of his own , to draw in the duke of monmouth , by telling his grace his information he had from walcot , and not saying he came from my lord shaftesbury , with whom he says he had been discoursing ; but he would put it under some sort of disguise , the better to prevail . so that it appears , my lord was very criminal , and guilty , in this case . why then gentlemen , my lord being so highly criminal , and there being a discovery of this conspiracy by keiling , and romsey , and west , having made a more manifest discovery , and this happening in july , then it was high time my lord howard might conceive for him to secure himself , and save one , he being thus guilty , as he declares : it is but reasonable to conjecture , he then began to place his security in a pardon ; and that there were no other means to save his life ; and that the way to it , must be by some further discovery of a conspiracy against his majesty and the government : and having since obtained a pardon , it is agreeable , that whatsoever my lord howard has done in this case , he has done for his own sake , to purchase his own pardon for a treason he was so deep in , and to out-do all the witnesses that went before him , by fresh testimony against the defendant and others : this might incline him to go an inch or two , or more , beyond the discovery of keiling , west , and romsey ; to have but said the same thing that was proved by three or four witnesses before him , might not perhaps have availed him : may not the indifferent believe it in this case , to be the interest and security of my lord howard , by these means to merit his pardon ? may it not be believeable , that what he hath said , he hath said only for his own sake , and that he has , by exposing this gentleman , and the blood of others , procured himself a pardon ? l. c. just. what do you mean by that , mr. williams ? mr. williams . by being a witness against the defendant and others , he has procured his own pardon . l. c. just . that is a little harsh expression — mr. williams . my lord , i explain my self thus — l. c. just . 't is an harsh word , and too roundly expressed ; you had need to explain your self ; 't is a little too rank , as though the king's pardon were to be procured by blood. mr. williams . my lord , i intend nothing of hardship , or amiss , but to speak according to my instructions , and to make the best observations i can out of the evidence for my clyent : i will express my self as well as i can , that my lord howard being a witness against men in a case of this high nature ; and there being other witnesses before , and besides himself , to the discovery of the late conspiracy against the government , it concerned him to give an home evidence in the case , or else he could not have any expectation of his pardon : for if he had done no more than what others had done before him , when there were three witnesses besides , and they had got the start in the discovery , his discovery had been in vain ; and therefore he was concerned perhaps to strain , that he might make such a discovery as might answer his end ; and this will arise naturally , i suppose , out of what has happened in this case : for it seems , though it was something long before he got his pardon , now he has it . my lord , another thing is this , how far my lord howard will be credited in this matter , we shall leave his credit to you gentlemen , upon what we shall prove . for we shall make it out by persons of great honor , and persons of great integrity , that upon discourse concerning this conspiracy , my lord howard did declare , that he knew of no persons that were guilty of having any hand in it ; he declared it upon his honor , he declared it upon his religion , and he used all the asseverations that were possible for a man to offer , to make himself believed . my lord , it may be objected , as it has been some times , that that was to out-face the conspiracy , and so stop the prosecution of that he knew himself so guilty of : but however , thus far we may make use of it for the defendant , that if my lord howard would , in the face of heaven , pawn his honor , his trust , his conscience , and his religion , to assert that which was not true , and under all those vows and ingagements , affirm an untruth ; a man that would deal so , and speak an untruth with that solemnity , i think is not a person of the same credit , as a person of certain known truth and veracity . for if a man will say one thing one time , and that with solemn vows and asseverations , and swear another thing the quite contrary another time , he does not stand so fair for credit , i think , as he that alwayes maintains , and avows the truth . so far we may make use of it very safely , i think , as to my lord's credit . my lord , another matter that we have to urge , is , that since the tryal of my lord russel , and since the tryal of collonel sidney , my lord howard has in discourse owned , that my lord russel died innocent . if that be true , it will have a great weight sure with you gentlemen , to discredit my lords testimony : for then he hath contradicted what he hath sworn . for if my lord swore , that my lord russel was guilty , as all the world knows he did ; and afterwards soberly , and publickly , shall have said he died innocent , he has contradicted his own evidence , and his own oath ; and sure is not to be believed as to what he swears now against the defendant . my lord , it did not rest there ; but since the tryal of collonel sidney , it will be proved by witnesses , that my lord howard did declare , that collonel sidney had hard measure . this will be proved by witnesses ; and 't is rather to be presumed , he meant hard measure as to his own testimony , which he was best knowing of , than of any thing else as to his tryal . now , how this person of great honour can solve this , and how it can stand with his oath , and his honour ; i will leave it to you gentlemen to judg of it . my lord , i have another matter to say , that with me seems to have very great weight : my lord howard , upon some occasions has said , being in discourse with a very great intimate of his , and the man being speaking of the world to come , speaking of eternity , speaking of the immortality of the soul , speaking of the rewards and punishments of another life ; my lord howard should say to him , how long wilt thou persist in this folly ? how long wilt thou be so foolishly prevailed upon , as to believe the world was ever made , or will ever have an end ? my lord , if a person be of that opinion , and a mans judgment in such things will discover it self in his words ; how far the testimony of a man of that perswasion shall influence a jury when he stands single , when there is no fact to justify him , in point of probable circumstance , will be easily observable , and i must leave it to the gentlemen of the jury to consider . my lord , we have another saying of my lord howards , which we shall give you an account of in the proofs , and that was in relation to his pardon . being free in discourse , as my lord is a man very liberal that way ; and his friend inquiring whether he had his pardon : no , sayes he ; nor i cannot have it , till the drudgery of swearing be over . truly 't is a very odd thing , that a man should call that drudgery that is his duty . to testify the truth , is as much the duty of every honest man , as any thing else . men have died for the truth , and we look upon those as martyrs , and the best of martyrs that dye for the truth . now , that this noble lord , or that any man should call this a drudgery , which is so manifest a duty , by giving a true testimony to preserve the king's life , and support the government against the contrivance , and conspiracies of evil men , is but an odd insinuation ; and truly i think is rather to be taken in this sense , as to my lord , that he did strain a little to make his discovery the more profitable to him ; and so did say more ( so far i may safely go ) then any one else did say . and my lord , this is that that i would observe upon the first part of the evidence . as for that part that concerns aaron smith , the evidence given by sheriffe and bell , i submit that to your lordship , how far that can any way affect mr. hambden the defendant . it is introduced to fortify the testimony of my lord howard , and it is introduced by himself thus : that at their meeting at mr. hambden's house , there was a discourse of some assistance to be had from scotland ; but sayes he , at the second meeting at my lord russels , then it came to a further discourse , and collonel sidney did undertake to name a person to send thither ; and a person was named ; he does not say mr. hambden was concerned in it , or that mr. hambden named the man , or any thing particular as to mr. hambden , more then that he was in the company . mr. hambden had no hand in the undertaking , or sending him into scotland ; that was altogether the part of mr. sidney ; save this , that he sayes my lord russel writ the letter that was to go by him . it does not appear mr. hambden was at all concerned in it , but only was there . l. c. just . and consented to it ? mr. williams . i would not strain any thing my lord , further than the evidence is . l. c. just . nor do not misrepeat it neither . mr. williams . i design not any such thing , my lord. l. c. just . but you do though : for he swears it , every one of them consented . mr. williams . by silence it must be then . for he does not say , that he said any thing . he swears only collonel sidney undertook to manage it , to send a person ; and my lord russel to write the letter . l. c. just . and all the rest consented to it . mr. williams . what is meant by consent , when nothing was said , i must leave to the jury . i must agree , the l. howard did swear , that my clyent was in their company , but how far he did , or did not consent , does not at all appear ; and how far this will charge my clyent , i must leave to you gentlemen . but the proof , as to this matter , stands thus ; that aaron smith was at new-castle in february last , that he went publickly . now , my lord howard sayes , that he went to agitate a confederacy between the malecontents of scotland , and those in england . now it is strange , that a man that was to agitate such a concern , should go publickly with a servant to new-castle ; so publickly as to be known again ; and of his own accord , tell them he was going to such a place in scotland . and be it so in fact , will any man apply this to any thing was done before ( as my lord howard sayes about a consultation to joyn in rebellion ? ) will any man think , that he should talk at that kind of rate , if that were his employment , and tell whether he were going ? but i rely upon this , in point of evidence . 't is not proved yet , that aaron smith was in scotland . that he came within six miles of the borders of scotland , is proved ; but it is not proved he was in scotland , or did agitate any conspiracy there ; or did any thing more , than go within six miles of the borders of scotland . but then they would press it further , and they say , that there were some scotch gentlemen , that in the summer came here into england , and that they hid themselves , when the plot was discovered . it does not appear my clyent had any conversation with these scotch gentlemen , or any of them , or was ever in their company . 't is a very remote inference to bring any thing of this to affect my clyent in this high charge . my lord , we shall add one thing more to disprove that part of the indictment , that layes the imputation of turbulency and sedition to the charge of mr. hambden ; and which also will shew the improbability of his being concerned in any thing of this nature . we shall prove him to be a person of a sober conversation , of a retired life , and studious disposition ; and as an evidence for the defendant , we shall prove , that he , in october . left england for his healths sake , and went into france for the recovery of his health . he continued there till about michaelmas was twelve month , then he returned . 't is true , he continued in england from michaelmas , to the time they speak of ; but we shall make it plain , that in february , my clyent , and my lord mountague had adjusted matters between themselves , to go the beginning of summer again into france , there to continue and abide some time for their healths . here is a strange kind of imagination , that this contrivance between my lord howard , and my lord shaftesbury , that was going on before this time , and that was disappointed , and my lord shaftesbury went away , and afterwards dyed in holland , was taken up by my clyent , and those other persons when my clyent , as we shall prove , never intended to stay in england . my lord , he was a parliament-man in both the last parliaments , but appeared in neither of them , being all the while in france , for the recovery of his health . we shall prove him to be one studiously inclined , that he lived a retired life , and kept very little or no company ; and you will hear from persons of very great honour and quality , what he is , as to his person , and as to his opinion ; and then we shall submit it to you gentlemen of the jury , whether you can believe him guilty of this he is charged with , which is your issue . you are to try , whether he be guilty , or not guilty of the crime charged in the indictment . mr. vvallop . my lord , and gentlemen of the jury , i desire to make one observation , before we call our witnesses . l. c. j. pray do not take up our time altogether in speeches , but go on to your evidence . mr. wallop . i desire to observe but one thing , my lord. l. c. j. make your observations at last , but spend not our time in speeches . i know you will expect to be heard at last , and so you shall whatever you will say . mr. williams . call the earl of anglesey , the lord of clare , and lord paget . mr. ducas . who appearing was sworn now we have him here we must begin with him , my lord. mr. ducas , pray what did you hear my lord howard say at any time concerning this conspiracy , and who were concerned in it , and who were not ? mr. ducas . my lord howard came once to the house of colonel sidney , i believe it was about days after the imprisonment of colonel sidney , and when he was in the house , i ask't him , what is the matter my lord ? he did answer me , he was told there was a plot against the king and the duke , and one general insurrection to be made , and that colonel sidney sent a man into scotland , to which thing my lord howard sware laying his hand on his breast , saying , god knows all things , and god knows i know nothing of that ; and i am sure if colonel sidney had known any thing , he would tell me ; and i said , what is the matter , my lord ? are you afraid ? and he made answer to me , no honest man is safe in his own house , i pray you lend me a bed to lie in . and he asked me about the goods of colonel sidney , because of the plot and such things , and he desired to have them removed to his house ; and he said , rather then go to the tower he would do any thing . mr. williams . speak again to the jury that did not hear you , what said my lord howard to you ? mr. ducas . he said , rather then to be a prisoner again he would do any thing . mr. williams . who to be a prisoner again ? mr. ducas . my lord howard . mr. att. gen. what things were spoken of ? mr. ducas . he said he would do any thing . mr. williams . were you speaking of the conspiracy ? of the plot ? mr. ducas . he spake of the plot , and said he knew nothing of it . mr. williams . what did he say sir ? mr. ducas . he said to me and swore , he knew nothing of it , and called god to witness . mr. williams . pray did he then say he would do any thing rather then go to the tower , when you were talking of the plot and conspiracy ? mr. ducas . yes , he would do any thing rather then be a prisoner again . mr. att. gen. pray what did he say ? mr. ducas . he raised up his hands on high , and said , he knew nothing of the plot , or of the insurrection , or that colonel sidney had sent any man into scotland . mr. williams . when was this ? mr. ducas . i believe it was or days after the imprisonment of colonel sidney . mr. att. gen. what day of the month , and what month was it ? mr. ducas . he was imprisoned about the end of june . l. howard . my lord , it would be necessary that i should make an answer to this , and i know not whether i should make a particular answer to every one : for here is a whole set of witnesses , i see . l. c. j. no , let them alone . you must not interrupt them , they must go on with their evidence ; and when 't is a fit time for you to answer them , the council for the king will call you . mr. williams . pray sware mr. howard which was done pray sir , will you please to acquaint my lord and the jury what you know , of what my lord howard has said of the plot , and who were concerned in it ? mr. howard , my lord , what i have said is in the paper of mr. sidney's tryal , and truly i can say no more than what i said there . mr. williams , pray speak out sir , and tell it again to this jury . mr. howard . i was told i spake it very loud then . l. c. j. pray sir speak as you please , we wont direct you in what key you shall speak . speak in what key you will. mr. howard . then if you will have me speak it , i will speak it as loud again . my lord , is mr. hambden here ? l. c. j. yes , there he is . mr. howard , in the first place i do not know mr. hambden , my lord , i cannot promise to speak the very words that i spake the last time , i cannot make them so fit as one tally fits another . mr. att. gen. consider , sir , you were not sworn then , you are sworn now , that is the difference , and therefore pray consider of it . mr. howard , my lord , as near as i can , i will repeat the same words again , i had little acquaintance with my lord howard ; but meeting him often at my brothers house , ( and being he was extraordinary pleasant company , i must needs say that he was so , and a man of great wit ) and i coming from white-hall , he asked me what news of the plot ? i told him there were some people that were in the proclamation , or would be , and i named their names . says he , i know none of them except rombald , i think ; and by chance i met him passing through the old exchange , and he saluted me very kindly . after this my lord russel was taken , and when my lord howard heard that , says he , then we are all undone . and i very much fear it is a sham plot , since they have seized upon my lord , and i doubt he is a lost man. after that , i think as near as i can remember — the next thing was this — if you look upon the book , you will see what i said there . l. c. j. we are not to look upon the book , man. you must give your evidence your self mr. howard , i hope you do not swear by book ? let the truth come out in gods name , whatever it be . mr. williams . ay , my lord , we desire to have truth come out . l. c. j. ay , whether it be of one side , or the other , god forbid but truth should be spoken . mr. howard go on . mr. howard . then my lord colonel , sidney was taken , and says my lord , i am extremely troubled for colonel sidney , for he is my very good friend . said i , why are you not concerned for my lord russel ? he is of your blood , says he , he is a man without exceptions . there is no man of such honor as he , but i am concerned for colonel sidney as that particular man that has obliged me above all the world , but i never heard my lord howard name mr. hambden in all my life . lord howard . i l'e give you a reason for it my lord , if you please , why i said so . l. c. j. my lord , this is evidence for the defendant . if the kings counsel will call you afterwards to make answer to any of these things , then is your time to speak . we will not let them interrupt you when you come to speak , nor must you interrupt them now . we are bound to hear both sides , and so by the grace of god we will do . lord howard . my lord , i desire both he and his brother may stay in court , for i have something to say to them . mr. williams . pray what did you hear my lord howard say concerning the plot ? mr. howard . he did deny it possitively , and said they acted nothing but what was legal , and he said it times over . mr. williams . did he deny it ? mr. howard , yes he did . l. c. j. but when he said they acted nothing but legally , what did he mean ? was this plot legal ? mr. howard . i had former discourses with my lord howard at other times , and i asked him ; my lord , what tends all this to ? your going up into the city and making these meetings ? says he , we intend nothing but what is legal . there is not one man in the company that i know of , intends any thing else . mr. williams . what was my lord's opinion of the plot in june or july , or august ? mr. howard . he said he knew nothing of it , nor could he believe there was any such thing . when those persons were named that were to kill the king , lord bless me , said he , can there be such a thing in nature , that any men should be so wicked , but that there is one man of honor or estate , or conscience that ever had any such thought , it can never into my head , i can never believe it . mr. williams . when was this ? mr. howard . when rombald and those other people were put into the proclamation . mr. att. gen. mr. howard , then i will ask you your opinion , whether in your judgment , every man that was in the plot could not have said so much ? mr. howard . i suppose every man in the plot would have defended himself as well as he could , but i cannot tell what way . mr. thompson . sir , did he barely affirm it , or with asseverations and imprecations ? mr. howard . my lord , was not upon his oath before me . mr att. gen. mr : howard . don't you believe a great many that were concerned in this plot would deny it ? mr. howard . i am to give my opinion only for my self , not for other people . l. c. j. have you done with him ? mr. williams . yes my lord. l. c j. then go over sir. mr. howard . my lord , i am troubled with fumes , and cannot well endure a crowd , therefore i desire i may have leave to be gone . l. c. j. you may go if you please . mr. williams . call mr. edward howard , but he did not appear then swear my lord of clare and my lord paget , which was done l. c. j. well what do you ask my lord of clare ? mr. williams . my lord of clare , will your lordship please to acquaint the court and the jury , what you heard my lord howard say concerning the late conspiracy ? e. of clare . my lord , some indisposition i have had of late , together with the great rigour of the season has confined me to my house this six weeks , so that i should not come here but upon this summons of a subpoena , which i thought i ought not to refuse . i suppose i need not repeat much of what was said at colonel sidney's tryal . l. c. j. my lord , you must give what evidence you have to give now , mr. williams . my lord , the gentlemen of this jury have not heard it , therefore you must say it all over again to them . e. of clare . sometime after mr. sidney was taken , my lord howard came to see me , and complaining of the times , said , that all things were very sad and dangerous , and if ever he was questioned again , he would not plead , but desire them only to count noses , for the quickest dispatch he thought was best : i replyed , sure his lordship was in jest . he said , no , he was in earnest , for he was confident if he came to tryal , they would have his life , let him appear never so innocent . i said , i hoped not so , it was only his lordships fear , and because of that , i thought it might be presumed he would venture much , rather then be tryed . and discoursing of the late primate of armagh's prophecy ; he said , for his part , he thought the persecution was already begun , and he did believe it would be very sharp , but withal , he hoped it would be but short ; and then he began to wish himself beyond sea till the troubles were over ; and in complyance with his lordship i did wish so too . but as to sidney , he did with great asseverations very much assert his innocency . he said , he thought he was not guilty of any of the things laid to his charge ; and spake with large encomiums in his praise , as he had obligation to do , and seemed to bemoan his misfortunes ; which i said i had then reason to believe he was real in , for i believe never any man was more engaged to another then he to colonel sidney . i told him there was a discourse of some writings of mr. sidneys that were taken ; he said he was confident they could make nothing of any writing of his ; i told him , i supposed he meant legall they could not do it , this was the most he said , as to mr. hambden , he mentioned nothing that i know of . mr. williams . did he seem to declare any opinion about the plot or conspiracy in general , that there was any such thing or not ? e. of clare . i do not remember it . mr. att. gen. my lord of clare , did you never hear my lord howard before this complain of the government that it was amiss , and was to be rectified ? earl of clare . yes , he often did complain . every body knows my lord's way of discourse . lord howard . pray will you ask him , if my lord of clare used to fall out with me upon those discourses . e. of clare . my lord was always good company . mr. att. gen. you mean a propos , my lord. e. of clare . i understand what you mean by a propos , you are a learned man , i know . mr. soll. gen. my lord of clare , if i apprehend your lordship aright , my lord howard was discoursing of the primate of armagh's prophecy , and said he thought the persecution was already begun , and would be sharp , tho' he hoped it would be short , and he wished himself beyond sea till the troubles were over , and your lordship wished your self so too ? e. of clare . no , i said in compliance with his lordship , since he wished himself beyond sea , till the troubles were over , i wished he were there too . l. c. j. but i perceive all these discourses concerning the government are reckoned but jests and matter of laughter , but 't is a very rank way of jesting i assure you . mr. williams . my lord , we call our witnesses seriously , they are the kings council that jest . mr. att. gen. was this before my lord howard was taken ? e. of clare . yes , but after mr. sidney was taken . l. c. j. well , who do you call next ? mr. williams . my lord paget , pray what have you heard my lord howard say concerning the plot , and when ? l. paget . my lord sits there , and i believe he may remember it was about the th of july , the saturday before my lord went into the country , to the best of my memory , which was , i take it , the th of july . upon saturday the th at night my lord came to see me , i told him i was glad to see him abroad , and not concerned in the disorders that were then so general ; my lord told me he had been wished joy by several , and he took it ill , because it looked as if he were guilty . 't is true , my lord was a man of great finess and readiness in discourse , and came easily into all company , my lord said that was true , but he had so carefully behaved himself , that he was sure they could not touch him with any thing , nor did he know any thing of any body else that he could charge them withal . mr. williams . when was this my lord ? l. paget . this was the th of july . mr. att. gen. pray good my lord , why did you joy my lord howard , had you any reason to mistrust my lord ? l. paget . no other reason , then because i knew he was a man of great freedom in discourse , and might be concerned upon that account . mr. att. gen. and he would frequently discourse against the goverment i suppose ? l. paget . no , i never heard my lord discourse against the government in my life . mr. williams . sware dr. burnet which was done pray will you doctor acquaint the court , what you heard my lord howard say concerning the late plot , and when ? dr. burnet . my lord howard came to see me the day after the discourse of the plot broke out , thursday i think it was , on wednesday it began to be talked of . the thing was little understood then , but in general a plot was discovered , and my lord with a great many protestations , lifting up his hands and eyes to heaven , protested he knew of none , and believed there was none , and spake of the whole thing as a contrivance . mr. williams . this was the day after the discovery broke out ? dr. burnet . yes , the day after that i first heard of it . mr. williams . had you any other discourse with my lord about it ? dr. burnet . i had not seen my lord before of some months . and then he spake a great deal to me . he told me he had been in essex , and after that he went to the bath , and went so early and came away before the company came , because he would avoid all danger . and he expressed great apprehensions of fear of sham-plots , and spake of false witnesses and former designs of that nature . the truth of it was , one had possessed me much with a belief of the thing , it being then but a secret , but he strove to dispossess me of that belief , and his whole discourse ran upon that for an whole hour , and expressed , as i said , great fear of some sham-contrivance , and spake much of false witnesses , wishing that he were beyond sea. l. c. j. what , he spake as if there were like to be great heats and stirs , i suppose ? dr. burnet . no , the talk was about the discovery , which he said he believed was a contrivance . mr. williams . did my lord howard use to come to you some times ? dr. burnet . yes , he used to come frequently to see me . mr. att. gen. dr. burnet , pray let me ask you one question , you spake of solemn declarations and protestations made by my lord howard , what gave the occasion to such a solemnity ? dr. burnet . i will tell you the occasion truly , tho it was never asked me before . it was thus , i being possessed with the belief of the thing by one that assured me it was true , and would soon appear to be so , i argued upon that belief to convince my lord howard , that it was true , and he argued a great deal to dispossess me of that belief . and i said , if there be any such thing i pray god forgive them that are concerned , but certainly it is one of the monstrousest ill things that ever was done ; for hereby they have done all that could be done to ruine the protestant religion . he was smoaking a pipe of tobacco , and he laid down his pipe , and lifted up his hands and eyes to heaven , and protested to me , he neither knew of any such thing , nor believed it , but it was all a contrivance . mr. att. gen. by his discourse , you possibly might understand what he meant , did he mean being privy to the murder of the king or the raising of rebellion ? dr. burnet . there was not a word then of the assassination , but it was all of the plot in general . mr. att. gen. did he make no distinction ? dr. burnet . we talked of nothing but plot in general . for the particulars were not then known . it was only about the general notion of a plot. mr. att. gen. pray what was the reason you had to believe it ? dr. burnet . there was a gentleman from whitehall that came to see me , and he did assure me it was true , as being one that had it from a privy-councellor . this was on the wednesday when the council sate long about it ; and nothing of particulars was then let out , but only a discourse in general of such a thing , and he said it would be found to be a certain truth . mr. att. gen. but doctor did not you a little wonder at the carriage of my lord howard ? that a man that was not accused , that you heard of , should make such solemn protestations ? dr. burnet . my lord , he said just in this manner as i have told you , when i said , pray god forgive them if any have been concerned in such a thing , he laid down his pipe , and lift up his hands and eyes . whether he thought i suspected him or no , i can't tell , he best knows his own thoughts . mr. att. gen. did he say a word of mr. hambden ? dr. burnet . no , there was not any particular person named . mr. recorder . doctor , he would not make you his confessor . dr. burnet . his whole hours discourse was to dispossess me of the opinion and belief i had entertained of the plot. mr. just . holloway . this was about july you say ? dr. burnet . i cannot remember the very day of the month , i believe it was the latter end of june , but i am sure it was before any body was committed , that we heard of . mr. recorder . dr. burnet , you say you did believe there was a plot then ? dr. burnet . yes , i did so , and he laboured to dispossess me of that belief . mr. recorder . pray do you believe it now ? mr. williams . what a question is that , mr. serjeant ? dr. burnet . i make no doubt of it , sir , as to the assassination . mr. att. gen. my lord newport , why do you lift up your hands ? you don't do well ; for it is a very proper question . l. c. j. well call your next witness gentlemen ? mr. thompson . swear mr. gisborne which was done mr. williams . pray sir , will you acquaint the court and the jury what you have heard my lord howard say about the late conspiracy ? mr. gisborne . my lord only said he knew nothing of the plot ; that is all i can say . mr. williams . when was this ? mr. gisborne . the saturday before he was taken into custody ; then it was that your honour did say so , my lord. mr. att. gen. ay , and more i believe would say so , that might be concerned in it for all that . mr. williams . swear mr. blake which was done pray acquaint my lord and the jury , what discourse you had with my lord howard about his pardon , and what he said to you ? mr. blake . my lord , about the month of october last my lord howard sent to me to know how i did , and desired me to come and make him a visit . the next day i went and waited upon my lord at his lodging at white-hall , and after the complements passed , my lord began a discourse of the plot , and i told him , that i heard none of the witnesses had their pardons , but only keiling the first discoverer . my lord told me no , but he had a warrant for his pardon , and with that he plucked it out and shewed it me , and i read it . and then i told him i thought it was of no avail without he had his pardon actually under seal . he said no , but he had their word and honour ; but , said he , when i first received the warrant , they said i should not meddle in it till i heard from them again ; which i have not yet , and i ascribe it to no other reason but only this , that i must not have it till the drudgery of swearing it over . mr. williams . when was this ? mr. blake . in october last some time . so i then took my leave of my lord , and my lord desired me to come and see him at night about a clock in the evening , for he had a great many came to him , but then he should be at leisure , and had many things to say to me . mr. att. gen. at that time did my lord express himself as discontented , and that it was irksome to him to be brought as a witness ? mr. blake . he only said those words that i have told you , and looked up and turned up his eyes towards heaven when he said so . mr. williams . pray where is mr. benjamin mercer ? sware him . who was sworn l. c. j. what do you ask him ? mr. williams . we bring him to prove that my lord anglesey was served with a subpoena , but is so ill of the gout he can't come . l. c. j. if that be all , there is no question of it , but that he was subpoened . mr. williams . if your lordship please , we will prove in what condition my lord anglesey is , and then we hope your lordship will give us leave to prove what my lord has said concerning my lord howard's discourses with him . l. c. j. no certainly , mr. williams , and i am sure you ask it not as expecting it should be granted . mr. williams . i lay it before your lordship and the court. l. c. j. ay , you lay it before us , but you are a lawyer , do you your self think fit it should be done ? mr. williams . my lord , i must submit it to you . l. c. j. come , will you consent , that what the duke of monmouth has said , shall be given in evidence , and then i presume the king's council will consent to your request . mr. williams . i consent ? here is my clyent , my lord , in court , i can consent to nothing . l. c. j. but if so be there be leave given on one side to tell what another person has said , why should not it be consented to on the other side , that it be proved what a d person that is absent has said for them ? mr. recorder . ay , will you consent that we prove what the duke of monmouth has said ? mr. williams . we don't know what the duke of monmouth has said . l. c. j. but you do know 't is not evidence , nor fit to be granted what you ask . mr. jones . you know that 't is not for your purpose what he has said . mr. williams . my lord , we must go according to our instructions . l. c. j. but you know the law , why should you offer any such thing ? your offering it will make the lay gens that know not the law , think that the court put hardships upon people , in denying things which you that understand the law know can't be granted . mr. williams . i do not press it my lord , but leave it with you . l. c. j. why do you spend our time in urging things that are nothing to the purpose , and cannot be allowed ? mr. williams . now my lord , we will go on to another part of our defence , and that is , to call witnesses to the reputation of mr. hambden , and his behaviour , to satisfie you , that he cannot be such a person as the indictment says , and as he must be if it be true what this gentleman my lord howard has sworn . mr. thompson . we will first examine my lord paget . who stood up mr. williams . my lord , we ask you to that question . have you known this gentleman mr. hambden , and what a sort of a man is he ? lord paget . i have good reason to know him . i have known him a great while , and have always believed him an honest and a prudent man , a man of honor and vertue and integrity , my lord ; and i have had no reason to have other opinion of him . i know he has been always ever since he came abroad into the world a man that hath loved his study , and books and a contemplative life . and therefore i should not be apt to believe , that he could apply himself to a thing so contrary to his own nature , and to that way that he delighted in , and had always hitherto applied himself unto , i mean to ingage in a design of so much malice and wickedness . mr. williams . my lord , you have had a long conversation with the knowledge of mr. hambden , you say . what say you as to his disposition ; because this indictment says he is a person of a turbulent , factious , seditious spirit ? lord paget . i have always known him a quiet peaceable man , not medling in business , very friendly , free from all turbulency , not of much acquaintance nor desirous to make much . mr. att. gen. pray my lord paget , upon the same oath you have taken , have you not at any time heard him express dissatisfaction as to the male-administration of the government ? lord pagett . no , never to me in the least . mr. att. gen. not at the time of the last westminster parliament ? lord pagett . no , i never heard him then , nor at any time else . mr. willams . mr. hambden was then in france , and not in that parliament , tho he was a member . where is mr. pelham ? l. c. j. here he is . he sits down here pointing to the table what would you ask him ? he was sworn mr. williams . sir , will you please to acquaint the court , what acquaintance you have had with mr. hambden , and how long ? and what you know of him ? l. c. j. you hear the question , sir , how long have you been acquainted with mr. hambden ? mr. pelham . i have been acquainted with mr. hambden about five or six years living near him , and all that i could observe from him was , that he was a man much addicted to his studies , kept much at home , and i never observed that he had much acquaintance , but as to the business before you , i know nothing of it , nor ever heard him speak any thing relating to it . mr. williams . as to his spirit and disposition , is he a turbulent man ? mr. pelham . no , i never found him any thing like it . we never talked together of matters of that nature . mr. att. gen. were you ever in his company at any time when he discoursed about government ? mr. pelham . no , i was never with him at any time when he discoursed of any such thing . mr. williams . sir henry hobart . mr. att. gen. my lord , we oppose his being a witness . he is one of his bail. mr. williams . that was upon the habeas corpus act , not upon this indictment . mr. att. gen. if he be bail for the defendant , my lord , he cannot be a witness . mr. williams . i appeal to the rule of court , whether he was not bail upon the habeas corpus act only ? mr. att. gen. appeal where you will , the bail cannot be a witness . mr. williams . we moved for an habeas corpus the beginning of last term upon the late act for habeas corpus's . and then at the last day of the term upon habeas corpus he was brought up thither , and was bailed upon that writ . mr. att. gen. are not you one of the bail , sir henry hobart ? sir henry hobart . i was one of his bail , i think it was for his appearance . l. c. j. if he be one of his bail that he shall appear in this court the first day of this term , and so from day to day till he shall be discharged , and remains under that recognizance , then in any case against him , he cannot be a witness for him . mr. att. gen. but they mistake the matter , he was then charged with this indictment , he then pleaded to it , and was bailed to answer the indictment ; and surely in that case he can never be a witness . l. c. j. that is certainly very true , and you know the law so well mr. williams that i wonder you will insist of it ; in every ordinary case it is every days practice to deny the bail to be witnesses . mr. att. gen. here is the person principal , will they render him in custody ? l. c. j. ay , what say you , will you render him in custody ? then we will discharge the bail. mr. williams . my lord , i will tell you what we will do . l. c. j. tell me what you will do ! answer my question , will you render him in custody ? mr. williams . we will change the bail , my lord , and find some other sufficient person to stand in sr. henry hobart's place , rather then lose our witness . l. ch. just . with all my heart . mr. williams . here is mr. ashhurst , my lord , a gentleman of very good value . l. j. c. but you must render him first , and change the whole bail. they must enter into new recognizances . mr. will. i can't tell whether we can do that so very well , because the others i am afraid are not all here . he is a mighty material witness i am sure . mr. att. gen. my lord , mr. williams says he is a material witness , let him be sworn , i am so fair , i 'll consent to it : let us hear what he can say . which was done . mr. will. we thank you mr. attorney . i am afraid you won't live long , you are so good natured . l. c. j. but you are like to live for your good nature , mr. williams . mr. thompson . sir henry hobart , how long have you been acquainted with this gentleman , mr. hambden ? sir h. hobart . i have known him any time these ten years . mr. williams . how has he been , sir , as to his disposition and spirit ? did you ever find him to be of a turbulent temper ? sir h. hobart . very far from it always . mr. will. have you had any intimate conversation with him ? sir. h. hobart . i have known him all along , i say , these ten years , but of late , i have had more converse with him some few years in travel . mr. will. had you much conversation , sir. sir h. hobart . i was with him continually at paris , and abroad . mr. will. what say you as to his loyalty and principles ? was he a factious , seditious person ? sir h. hobart . sir , he always expressed a great esteem for the government , and great respect and duty to the king. mr. will. pray sir , when went mr. hambden abroad to go into france ? sir h. hobart . he went into france for his health about november , ( . ) i think it was . mr. will. how long did he continue abroad , sir henry ? sir h. hobart . i found him in paris the may after . mr. will. how long did you tarry there , sir , your self ? sir h. hobart . i went from paris in june , and came back again to paris about october , or november the same year , and i found him in france still . mr. will. and when do you take it , he returned into england . sir h. hobart . i was with him till he came over , which was about september , ( i think . mr. thompson . what do you know , sir , of his intentions to go again beyond sea ? sir h. hobart . when , sir , do you mean ? mr. thompson . since that time he came over , you say in september , ( . ) sir h. hobart . he told me of it often , i think it was about march , more particularly once at his own house . mr. thompson . what march , sir ? sir h. ho. march ( . ) mr. thompson . that is last march. sir h. hobart . yes , last march , he talked of it several times particularly , once i went about some business of my own , and then he discours'd a great deal of his going over with my lord mountague , that now is ; for he told me his health was not yet established , for he came over out of an hot country in autumn and had been all the winter in this colder country , and the air he found had impaired his health again . and it was not only what he told me , but i had a letter from a friend of mine in france to whom i had sent to desire him to come over ; but he writ me word , no , mr hambden was coming over again , and he would not come back yet . mr. att. gen. did he tell you when he intended to go over , sir henry ? sir h. hobart . as soon as mr. mountague , my lord mountague that now is , could get ready who was to carry his lady over with him . mr. will. sir , do you know of any preparation made by mr. hambden for it ? sir h. hobart . he had resolved to take his lady with him , because mr. mountagues lady went , and so i believe did prepare accordingly . mr. att. gen. did mr. mountague go over ? sir h. hobart . he did not go then , but since he is gone . mr. att. gen. were you in france then at this time ? sir h. ho. this was in england at his own house . mr. will. pray , sir , what is his disposition ? sir. h. hobart . he was always inclined to a studious life , and kept very little company . mr. att. gen. was this in march , ? sir h. hobart . yes , he came over in september before . i always observed him to be of a retired temper . mr. att. gen. you say in . he went into france , and in ( ) he came over again ? sir h. hobart . yes . mr. att. gen. pray , sir henry , since you convers'd so much with him ; have you heard him since the last parliament at westminster , or at any time have you been by , when he hath discours'd his opinion about government . sir h. hobart . truly , sir , i don't take my self to be capable of discoursing with him about any such matters . mr. att. gen. have you heard him at any time complain of the male administration of the government ? sir h. ho. no , sir. mr. att. gen. have you never heard any such thing from him ? sir h. hobart . no , never . mr. will. swear dr. lupee . — my lord , we must desire an interpreter , for the dr. speaks french only . l. c. just . swear an interpreter . mr. will. dr. burnet , or if he be gone , call sir henry ho. again . we must beg the favor of you , sir henry to be an interpreter , you understand the french tongue very well . sir h. ho. i will do it with all my heart , sir , as well as i can . l. c. just . swear him . cryer . you shall well , and truly , interpret between the court and the witness , and the witness and the court according , to the best of your skill and knowledge : so help you god. mr. thompson . sir henry , will you please to repeat what questions we shall ask , and what answers he makes ? sir h. ho. yes , sir , as well as i can , i will. mr. will. pray , sir , ask the dr. this question , if he be acquainted with mr. hambden ? sir h. ho. yes , he says very well . he lived near two years with him . mr. thompson . how long is it since ? sir h. ho. four years since he says . mr. will. pray in that time , what was his disposition ? was he a seditious and turbulent man ? or was he a studious retired man , or what ? sir h. ho. he says the two years he lived with mr. hambden , he kept him company in his studys , and all that time he found he had no other inclinations but for study and knowledge , and his inclinations were very vertuous . he always observed in his discourse a great submission , and respect that he had for the laws of his nation and his prince , and to that degree he was a faithful subject to the king , that once he told him in discoursing with him of the late popish plot , that he was ready to sacrifice his life and fortune for the king's service . mr. thomp . ask him what discourse he had with him of the plot since it brake out ? l. c. just . will that be any evidence do you think , mr. thompson ? will mr. hambden's declaration be any evidence , he being a person accused ? do you think he would tell the doctor , or any body else that he was guilty , when he was like to be questioned ? that would have been a wise business indeed . you say , he was a very studious man , and a learned man , truly if he had done that , he had bestow'd his time in learning to very good purpose . mr. will. my lord , that , that we would ask him is this ; this person the doctor being discoursing with mr. hambden upon the discovery of the late conspiracy , and of the dangerousness of the time , he would have advised mr. hambden to have gone ; no , he said , he would not , for he was an innocent man , and would not stir . l. c. j. well , ask him what you will , but his declaration of his own innocence cannot be taken for evidence . sir h. ho. he says , since this plot was discovered , he was going one day to visit mr. hambden , and going through long acre he met a french minister , a savoyard minister , — but , my lord he speaks so fast , and goes on with so much at a time , that i cannot remember it all . mr. will. well , what said that minister to him ? sir h. ho. he says this minister asked him , if mr. hambden was not concerned in the plot , and upon that he went and told him what the minister had said to him — he says , he told mr. hambden , that the duke of monmouth , and my lord gray were hid — he says , upon that mr. hambden said to him , i will never fly , nor conceal my self , for my conscience reproaches me in nothing . l. c. j. ask him why does he think the french minister , the savoyard as he calls him , should ask whether mr. hambden were in the plot ? sir h. ho. he says mr. hambden said he would rather die innocent then fly with the imputation of guilt upon him . l. c. j. but ask him the question i put , why should that savoyard parson say so ? what reason had he to think mr. hamdden was in the plot ? sir h. ho. he says the minister did ask him , but he can't tell what reason he had to think so . mr. att. gen. pray , sir henry , ask him this question ; how long ago it was since he left him ? sir h. ho. four year he says . mr. att. gen. where was it in england or france ? sir h. ho. whilst he lived in bloomsbury , he says . mr. will. call dr. needham and monsieur justell , who appeared and monsieur justell was sworn . pray , sir h. hobart will you ask monsieur justell who speaks french too : if he know any thing of mr. hambden's resolution to travel with mr. mountague into france ? sir h. ho. he says , yes . he did tell him he was going into france , and he offered to carry some books for him along with him . mr. will. what company was he to go in , and what time ? sir h. ho. he says , sir , he can't be exact to the month when mr. hambden spake of going over , but he says it was a great while before this plot came to be discovered . mr. will. was it some months before ? sir h. ho. it was a month before it was known he says . mr. will. in what company was he to go ? sir h. ho. he said he was to go with mr. mountague . mr. conyers . pray , sir , will you ask him , was he employ'd to get any french servants to be with him ? sir h. hobart . yes , he says . l. c. j. ay , but what was the question ; for there is such a crowd of people before the council that the court cannot hear mr. conyer's question . mr. can. my lord , i asked him , whether he was employ'd to get any french servants to be with mr. hambden . sir h. h. yes , he says . l. c. j. well there is dr. needham , what do you ask him ? mr. will. we call dr. needham for this purpose my lord , to prove that these gentlemen that are accused , mr. hambden , and my lord of essex , and the others , had very little esteem , and mean opinion of my lord howard . and how one , they so little esteemed should be let into so great a secret , will be very strange to imagine . dr. needham , pray , what can you say of any of these gentlemens opinions of my lord howard ? what opinion had my lord of essex of him ? l. c. j. is my lord of essex now before us ? what is that to this case , mr. williams ? let my lord of essex have what opinion he would of him ; how does that concern the defendant ? mr. will. i tell you why , i offer it my lord. — l. c. j. but pray , offer what is evidence , and keep to the business before you . mr. will. falsus in uno , falsus in omnibus . if we can prove that , what he hath said of my lord of essex is false he is not to be believed against the defendant . mr. att. gen. ay , but upon the evidence of my lord howard , all the rest were convicted . mr. will. i offer it only upon what is here to day before you . he says , my client , and my lord of essex were confederate with him upon such a design . now if my lord of essex was not there , then he is false in that , and that he was not , we offer this as evidence , — l. c. j. but 't is not a proper evidence in this case . mr. will. 't is a sort of evidence . — l. c. j. ay , 't is a sort of evidence , but 't is not to be allowed . if you will prove mr. hambden's opinion you may , but you must not for him bring proof of what my lord of essex , a third person , thought of my lord howard . mr. will. i only offer it thus — l. c. j. offer what is evidence man ! you are a practiser , and know what is evidence , but you have offered two or three things to day , that i know you do at the same time know is not evidence , and i speak it that it may not be thought we deny you , you or your clyent any thing that is according to the course of law. you that know the law , know 't is so as we say . mr. attorney has gratified you in waving three or four things already , but nothing will satisfie unless we break the course of other tryals . mr. will. my lord , what i take not to be evidence i do not offer , and where the court over-rules me , i have not insisted upon it . l. c. just . no! mr. will. no , my lord. l. c. j. but you would have insisted upon it , if mr. attorney would have been so easy as to consent , and the court would have let you . pray keep to the business , and the methods of law ; you know the law very well . mr. will. my lord , i humbly apprehend this may be evidence , and i lay it before you . my lord howard has proved that my lord of essex , and five more , of which mr. hambden was one , met and consulted about such matters . we may i hope be admitted to prove , that my lord of essex was not there ; for if we can take off his positive proof , as to any one of the circumstances , we take off from the truth of the fact. if all the persons were not there ; then my lord howard is mistaken in that , and accordingly must not be believed in the rest ; therefore my lord , i press it no otherwise : he hath proved these six persons were there i offer this as some evidence , that it is unlikely it should be so , because my lord of essex had so little opinion of my lord howard , that he would never consult with him about any matter . l. c. j. then certainly my lord howard is to be believed to all intents and purposes , for here is a record of the conviction of my lord russel , and of colonel sidney and all upon the testimony of this gentleman my lord howard , and is not that more to support his credit then a flying report of a third persons opinion of him . and yet after all we say 't is no evidence against mr. hambden , and has been waved by mr. attorney . mr. will. then i will not press it , my lord. mr. j. withins . it is no evidence certainly , mr. williams . l. c. j. it seems my lord of essex had such an opinion of my lord howard's evidence , that he thought fit to cut his own throat rather than abide the tryal . mr. will. call mr. murray . l. c. j. suppose my lord of essex had said , that he was out of the plot , and mr. hambden was in , would that have been good evidence against mr. hambden do you think ? pray mind what is the business before you ? mr. will. swear mr. murray . which was done . l. c. j. well , what do you ask this man ? mr. will. my lord , we call him as to what i opened of my lord howard's opinion of the world to come , and rewards , and punishments there . l. c. j. mr. will. pray take notice of this , private discourses that people can't come to make answer unto , because they can't imagine to have them objected , are a very odd sort of an evidence . mr. will. therefore i opened it warily and tenderly my lord , the witness will tell you the story better than i. l. c. j. i cannot tell what mr. williams has said , or i have said in heat of talk or vanity . god knows how often all of us have taken the great name of god in vain : or have said more than becomes us , and talked of things that we should not do . mr. att. gen. my lord , how can my lord howard be prepared to give any answer to this ? l. how. my lord , this presses hard upon my reputation my lord. i profess before god i do not know this fellow , i never saw him in my life before as i know : but a company of impudent fellows take the liberty of saying what they please . l. c. j. to rake into the whole course of a man's life is very hard . l. how. i would fain have these fellows dare to say this any where else of me . mr. will. well my lord , we will wave it . l. c. j. they do not think it a fit thing to press it . l. how. but my lord it concerns me in my reputation ; who is this rascal they bring here ? god's life who is he ? l. c. j. we must be tender of men's reputations , and not let every thing come as evidence when 't is not fit to be evidence , to put slurs and scandals upon men that they can't be prepared to wipe off . is he convicted of any crime ? if he is you say something , shew the record of it . mr. j. withins . mr. will. you know the case adjudged lately in this court , a person was indicted of forgery we would not let them give evidence of any other forgeries , but that for which he was indicted , because we would not suffer any raking into men's course of life , to pick up evidence that they can't be prepared to answer to . mr. will. we have that respect for my lord's honour too as not to press it , only we had it in our briefs , and we must go according to our instructions . l. how. i desire to know who that rascal is ; what is he ? where does he live ? i will make him an example . l. c. j. pray compose your self my lord , there is nothing of this pressed . l. how. to say , i am an atheist my lord ! what can be a greater reflection ? l. c. j. he has not told us any such thing as yet . and we will take care that nothing shall be offered but what is fitting . l. ho. i vow to god my lord , i do not know the man. l. c. j. my lord , do you think that every thing that a man speaks at the bar for his client , and his fee , is therefore to be believed , because he said it ? no , the jury are to take nothing here for evidence to guide them of what the counsel say , but what is approved . they are to judge secundum allegata & probata , that is their duty . l. ho. does that fellow look like a man of that figure , that i should say any thing , or have any conversation with him ? l. c. j. my lord , i don't know what he is . go on gent. mr. will. my lord , vve have done with our evidence . if mr. attorney will leave it here , we will. mr. att. gen. my lord , we won't mistrust the evidence , nor the court. mr. hambden . my lord , i desire to speak a word my self , if you please . l. c. j. ay , in god's name . you , or your counsel , i will hear all you will say , and as long as you will speak , provided you speak within the bounds of decency . mr. will. my lord , i think it best to leave it to the court : vve hope we have made it clear that our client is innocent . l. c. j. vvould to god you were innocent , that is the worst wish i wish you , but we will either hear him or you speak , speak as long as you will. mr. vvallop . my lord. i desire to make but one observation . l. c. j. ay , in god's name make what observations you will. mr. vvallop , i hindred you from making your observations at first , because i knew it would be desired after the evidence was over . mr. att. gen. then my lord , i expect to be heard too . if mr. hambden makes a speech , i will reply , or if his counsel do it , i expect the last word , for i will have neither the party , nor the counsel to speak after i have summ'd up the evidence for the king. mr. hambden , and his counsel are all one . mr. vvallop . i have but one short observation to make . l. c. j. go on then , mr vvallop ▪ and say what you will. mr. j. vvithins . i think 't is very fit you should do it of both sides ; 't is a cause of great concernment . mr. vvill. my lord , we will leave it here i think . l. c. j. take your own course , do not say we hinder you of saying what you will for your client . mr. att. gen. let them do what they will. l. c. j. i 'll sit still , make speeches every one of you as long as you will. mr. just . vvalcot . 't is fit they should speak what they can for the advantage of their client . mr. vvill. my lord , vve leave it to the court. l. c. j. gentlemen of the jury , the evidence has been something long , and the counsel both for the king , and for mr. hambden against whom this indictment has already been found by the grand jury , having left it to the court to sum up all , i shall do it as well as i can : and the question before you gentlemen is , vvhether the defendant be guilty of the offence charged in the indictment , or not guilty , and there having been so long an evidence on the one side , and on the other , it will be fit for me according to the best of my remembrance to help your memories by recollecting what has been said on both sides which i shall do as near as i can , and if my brethren will please to supply any thing that shall be omitted by me , nay , if the counsel for the king , or for the prisoner will put us in mind of any thing that has been spoken , and proved either against , or for the party indicted , in god's name let them have liberty to speak it : for it is fit the question should be left before you with all fairness , and according to the best of my observation and memory thus it stands . the first thing gentlemen that is considerable to you , is , that there is such an indictment as has been already opened unto you , that is preferred against mr. hambden , that does set forth , that mr. hambden is a seditious-person , and a man according to the language of the indictment ( which are words of course and form in an indictment of this nature ) of an evil disposition , designing to disturb and distract the government , and that he with several other persons did conspire to bring in troubles , and perplexities upon the government ; and in order to that , that there were some meetings between him and several other persons and that there was a design to conciliate some persons of another nation to go along with them in their design , particularly some in the kingdom of scotland . this is the purport in the indictment , to which the defendant has pleaded not guilty . gentlemen , the evidence for the king has been of this sort , they did at the beginning , which yet i must tell you by the way , is not any thing of evidence , but the kings counsel would make some overtures to press on their side , as the defendant , and those that are of counsel for mr. hambden have made some little hints to press on their side , that some witnesses the one and the others would have had here , were subpoena'd but could not be here . it seems by the proof , here was a meeting , as it was between six several persons , and they name them , the duke of monmouth was one , the lord howard another , the lord russel a third , the earl of essex a fourth , algernoon sidney a fifth , and mr. hambden the sixth . as for my lord of essex he is gone to his long home , my lord russel , and mr. sidney have received sentence , and been executed . so there remains three surviviving , and say they that are for the king : we produce my lord howard , and we have taken care to summon the duke of monmouth by leaving subpoenas where it could be thought he was to be met with , with promises of his servants to deliver them to him in order to have the duke to be a witness for the king this day . i presume the meaning is , they would infer from that , that they would give an account of the fairness of this proceeding , tho it has been a matter that has obtained a sort of belief in the world , as tho the duke of monmouth had denied , that there was any such thing as this confederacy and conspiracy : and that has given people occasion to be of very different opinions , and persuasions about the matter ; but say they , to shew we are not afraid to have the truth come out , we have done as much as in us lay to get this person hither : therefore we have left subpoena's at his houses , at his lodging with his servants , and they have promised to take care they should be delivered to him , and he is not come . against this on the other side , say they , for the defendant , vve have taken all the care we could to bring my lord anglesey , who was to have been a vvitness for the advantage of the person indicted , but my lord anglesey is at present afflicted with a fit of the gout , and for that very reason we can't have him here . and so they shew , that they have been very zealous to get vvitnesses on their side to vindicate their reputation , but they did not meet with that effect that they desired . these two things gentlemen are matters that are used both against him one way , and for him another . but now to come home to the evidence upon which this matter is to turn , and here you are to consider , that whatsoever has been said or offered by the kings counsel on the one side , or the counsel for the defendant on the other side , ( i call him so , for 't is but a trespass tho a great one ) you must not take into your consideration at all any further then as their allegations are supported by the testimony that has been given : and whatsoever the vvitnesses have said either for or against him , and our of that testimony as near as i can remember i will give you the objections , and their answers with the observations , that have been made , or do naturally arise out of the facts in proof . my lord how. in the first place gives an account of this matter , and gentlemen the times will be wonderful material , and therefore i begg you would take a pen , and ink , and mark these material circumstances as you go . for in all matters of fact positively proved , which also have their credit supported by circumstances which do accompany them , the testimonies given of such facts are to be valued according as those circumstances keep touch with , and humor as i may so say , the fact that they are to evidence the truth of . my lord how. does therefore in the first place acquaint you , that about michaelmas there was a discourse between him and my lord of shaftesbury , and that was concerning a rising intended to be had , and he tells you how that my lord shaftesbury was fully resolved upon it ; that things at length came to that pass ; that he was forced to go from his own house , as he said , being disappointed by the duke of monmouth and others who had promised to joyn with him , and was retired to the house of one watson in or near woodstreet . but he understanding where he was , my lord how. went to him , ( i think he says my lord shaftesbury sent to him ) when he came , my lord shaftesbury told him , that altho there had been such a disappointment by those persons he named , yet that did not take off his edge , but he was resolved to go on himself , nay tho his body was infirm , yet he would be set on horse-back , tho he was lifted up to appear in the head of a party that he had prepared , and were ready when he would call them . and he began then to reflect upon the disappointment of the duke of monmouth , and as tho the duke of monmouth had only a prospect to advance himself , and had only an eye upon his own particular interest . that he so managed matters as if he design'd to have the sole disposition of all things whatsoever , and began to be uneasy with the duke of monmouth . my lord how. did endeavour to have prevailed with my lord of shaftesbury for a reconciliation between the duke of monmouth and him , it being a matter that required so much safety and security , and did desire him that he would have some intercourse with the duke of monmouth in order to conciliate a friendship between them , that they might go hand in hand . you find he was under some difficulties about this matter , he was not able to bring the thing about ; for after he had spake with the duke of monmouth , and prevailed with him , my lord of shaftesbury was peevish , and talked at a distance , and when he had appointed a meeting one time , it was prevented , my lord shaftesbury went away into holland , and there died in holland . this is the substance of what my lord how. says as to that matter . but gentlemen this is material , and i le tell you why i think it material ; because the counsel for the defendant have made it an objection particularly to my lord howards testimony , that my lord howard is particular as to the day after michaelmas day , but he is not so particular when he comes to speak of other times upon which the true question before you depends . for now he speaks more generally as to the meetings at the defendants , and my lord russells , that they were about the middle of janu. and the beginning of febru . and is not particular as to the day . i speak of this because that has been made use of as an objection against my lord howards testimony . and i will tell you as near as i can all the objections that have been made against this testimony after such time as i have settled it and laid before you what the whole of it amounts to . then comes my lord howard and says , that meeting with the duke of monmouth some time after this they began to talk together , and they thought that tho the business had failed in the managery of my lord of shaftesbury yet it was fit there should be a reassuming of the business again , but in order to settle matters that things might not go inconsiderately on , it was thought fit that they should resolve themselves into a certain number that were confident one of another , in order to steer and transact these matters the better among themselves . and they must be persons fit to be trusted and for whom there should be an undertaking among them for their faithfulness and integrity ; for all persons are not fit to be trusted , but only such as they agreed upon . the duke of monmouth he undertook for my lord of essex and my lord russell , those were the persons for whom he would ingage , as likewise for my lord salisbury . and then they began to talk of some more , particularly of mr. sidney , but he was a cynical man , and a philosopher , and they were first to come to him , and to treat with him in another manner then the rest . he was not to appear as the duke of monmouth , but to take him in his retirement and privacys , and then they might be the better able to break the matter to him . and he says accordingly there was a time designed on purpose ; and at that same time the duke of monmouth and my lord howard did go and attack mr. sidney , they found him on a private day , and dined with him ; and upon that dinner the whole matter was broke up , and put into some method ; then was the whole design contrived as to the persons that were to be ingaged in this matter ; and he says , they agreed upon six . the duke of monmouth undertook for my lord of essex , and my lord russel and col. sidney undertook for mr. hambden . he speaks of my lord of salisbury , but my lord of salisbury was never there among them , and so i put him out of the case , i quit him from being of their number , because there was but six in all , my lord of essex , and my lord russel , who were undertaken for by the duke of monmouth , mr. hambden undertaken for by mr. sidney , and my lord howard ; for by that time mr. hambden was come into the matter upon col. sidney's undertaking . now we are got , gent. by these steps till we come about the middle of january ; but says my lord howard , i cannot positively say , it was this day , or that day of the month ; but being about the middle of january , i conjecture it was about the th , but he is not positive to the day . he says , accordingly they went to mr. hambden's house , which was the place first design'd for them to meet in . he says , there accordingly they did all six meet ; and that it being mr. hambdens house , they thought it most proper for him who was master of the house , who usually bids his guests welcome , to break silence , and to impart the business of the design they met about . he says , accordingly mr. hambden after the first complements of entertainment , did give an account of the business they were come about , and that it was in order to have a rising . this he says was proposed by mr. hambden . he tells you , then they fell into debate about the time when , concerning men , and arms , and money ; and likewise concerning the places . he tells you , the places wherein the rising was design'd to be , were devonshire , cheshire , somersetshire , and other places , that is , as to the circumstance of the place . then he tells you concerning the time ; it was debated , whether it should be all at one time , or at several times ? whether they should onely begin here , and the country fall in , or all at once ? that likewise they had in consideration the business of money , and that his grace the duke of monmouth did speak of or thousand pounds , or some such sum at that time . but then , as was natural for men of deliberation and consideration to consult about , they took into debate , that they might not go headlong , to endeavour to conciliate another party to chime in , as he says , along with them , in the business they were going about , and accordingly it was thought fit , and proposed , that there should be an endeavour to conciliate a friendship with some persons in scotland , to fall in with them ; and then he tells you , who the persons were , that were named : some of the names he remembers , and others he has forgot ; he speaks particularly of the cambeles , sir john cockram , and my lord melvin : and he says , other persons were mentioned , but he can't remember their names : and my lord russel knew some of these persons , and the duke of monmouth knew some others of them , because of his near relation to the earl of argyle , the person that you know was proscrib'd for treason in the kingdom of scotland . he says , that so far the debate of this matter went , that they thought fit a messenger should be provided , a trusty man to be sent in●● scotland to treat with these gentlemen about this matter ; and my lord russel , i think he says , undertook to write a letter to be carryed by this messenger to these scotch gentlemen . he says , pursuant to this consultation at mr. hambdens , a fortnight after , or thereabouts , which brings it up to the beginning of february , then was the meeting at my lord russel's house , and there they debated these matters over again , and the whole managery of sending a messenger into scotland , was left to the discretion of col. sidney , and he undertook that work , that was his post that he was to manage : and he does say , that he does very well remember , that aaron smith was the person proposed then ; and tho' he was unknown to some of the company , yet he was well known to others ; and by reason of that knowledge that others had of him , they looked upon him as a person very fit , and every way qualify'd for it . so that gentlemen , here is proved a consultation in order to the raising of men to infest the government ; a discourse concerning money and arms for this end , and the places where , and the time when ; and of conciliating a friendship with some discontented persons in scotland , to joyn , and chime in with these conspirators in england . and then there is yet another circumstance very remarkable , because tho my lord spake it not at the same time that he delivered his testimony , yet upon the question asked , he gives you a plain account of it ; and it has a plain dependance upon what went before . said they among themselves , 't is proper for us , as near as we can , to shut the door against any exceptions about these mens coming to treat with us ; but how shall we get them hither without suspition ? we must have some shams , or cant or other , to be a pretence for these people to come into england ; and that was agreed to be about some plantation in carolina . this , he says , was the result of that meeting ; and that when the meeting was broke up , about three or four days afterwards , ( mind the circumstance of time , gent. for 't is very material ) col. sidney and he met together , they went to col. sidney's house , and there he saw him take money out of a till , where there were several hundreds of guineys , or pieces of gold ; and as he believes , he says , he took threescore guineys , or some such sum ; and told him , it was to give to aaron smith in order to his journey into scotland : that he went out with him in his coach , but mr. sidney set him down by the way , and he himself went into london , telling him , he went to that purpose , to give aaron smith the money . some time after , about a week , or a fortnight , or ten days after that , he says , he met with mr. sidney again ; and he says , mr. sidney gave him an account , that he had heard aaron smith had been at newcastle , but he had not heard of him since that time , and that is another circumstance in point of time , gent. so that you have here a positive oath made by my lord howard , that mr. hambden was privy , and consenting to all these debates , as to the raising of men , and the levying of money , and about the conciliating a friendship with these men of scotland , and about sending a messenger into scotland to that purpose . and if my lord howard do swear true , no man living can doubt but that mr. hambden is guilty of this indictment . the first meeting was at his house , and there he did take notice of what had been formerly done , and proposed the things , breaking the silence , and entering into the debate ; which shews that he had been discoursing about it before , and had it in his thoughts before , or else he could not have propounded it as the end of their meeting . now this , gentlemen , here is a positive fact ; and as mr. vvilliams says true , no man living can give any answer to a positive fact , but by some other things that may be circumstances to oppose that fact. now he says , there are no circumstances that have been proved , that will give any credibility to what has been deposed , besides the positive oath of my lord howard . so that , says he , your fact , tho it be positively sworn , is not supported by any circumstances of the fact , that may give credibility to it . and he objects very materially ; for if it be not supported by credible circumstances , then indeed it would be less material ; yet i cannot say , it would not be at all material ; it is material , and you are to determine , whether you have sufficient evidence given you , to induce you to believe , that my lord howard is at this time guilty of wilful and malicious perjury ; for it is perjury , and that in the highest degree , if it be not true that he says ; and god deliver all mankind from being guilty of any such thing . i leave that to your consciences , gentlemen , who are the judges of it . but says the kings councel , here are circumstances that do support our fact , and the credibility of it . for first , here is the circumstance of aaron smith , who was sent into scotland by mr. sydney in pursuance of this design , and this circumstance my lord howard does subjoyn to what he has positively affirmed against the defendant . and this circumstance is a thing that may be helped by other proof ; and what is this circumstance ? say they , that aaron smith was sent into scotland ; and in order to prove that , they have called one sheriff , who is a man that keeps an inn at the posthouse in new-castle , from whence col. sidney told my lord howard , he had notice of his arrival at new-castle , but had heard no more of him after that . and this sheriff swears directly , i saw that man they call aaron smith , when he was shewn to me before the king and the council ; and mr. atterbury swears he shew'd aaron smith to him , and then sheriff swears that man you shew'd to me , was the man i saw at my house at new-castle , that chimes in with the circumstance of fact that mr. sidney heard from him at new-castle . and then there is the circumstance of time when he saw him there ; says he , i saw him the friday before shrove-tuesday , which they in the north call fasters-even . he came to my house on thursday night , and went away the next day , friday ; and he went with his guide , the other man , northward , in order to his journey into scotland , as he himself said . says he , i remember the time very particularly , it was the friday before shrovetuesday last , this february was twelve-month ; and he went yet further ; says he , i did not only see him when he went away , but when he came back again , for he left his man at my house all the time , and he tells you what his name was ; for he says , smith went under the disguised name of one clarke , and he did then talk of going to the vvestern parts of scotland , he named douglas as he thinks , tho he is not positive in that , but he is in the person , that was the man. and says he , i sent for this person , the other fellow bell , and he was the guide he had along with him . and upon bells examination , what says he ? says he , i remember that man came thither at that time to the other mans house ; i take it upon my oath that is the man , and he went by the name of clarke , he hired me to be his guide ; i went out with him on friday morning , and i went a long with him all that day ; but upon saturday , which was the next day , going northward with him , my horse tired , and failed me . thereupon i was forced to be left behind , but i overtook him on sunday night following ; i overtook him at such a place , and saw him within six miles of the borders of scotland . i take it upon my oath , this is the man that was there under the name of clarke ; and at his returning back again , i took notice of him , i went up to him , i drank with him , and we had discourse of our journey . he told me at first , he was to go to the vvest of scotland , and so he went northward . after that , which was about ten or twelve days , he came back again , and so went southward towards london . this he doth swear directly to be at that time . now gentlemen , the time is wonderful material in that case , because that very time twelve-month that they talk of , is the beginning of february . if you look upon your old almanack of the last year , ( i happen to have one in my pocket , and look upon it , when the men gave their testimony ) and there you will find that the monday before shrove-tuesday , when he says , he left him within six miles of the borders of scotland , falls out to be the th of february ; i will look upon it again , lest i should mistake ; 't is just so , and that humors the time that my lord howard speaks of , which was about the middle of february , a few days after , that he says the money was given by mr. sidney ; and then for the time for aaron smith to get to new-castle , there is a fit space of time , for it falls out that the thursday that he arrived at new-castle , is the fifteenth day of february , and so it falls in well with my lord howards testimony , and so the monday that he parted with him at the borders of scotland was the th , which also just humours the time that he speaks of . so that here is a circumstance of fact to confirm his testimony , both as to the sending the messenger , and the circumstance of time . that he is the same man , is proved by these two witnesses , who agree in this , that he was there about such a time ; and it does likewise humour that other circumstance of place that mr. sidney said he had heard from him from new-castle , but not since ; and then there is the other circumstance , which backs and confirms all , there was not only a sending for these persons , but there is notice taken that these cambeles , who were to be assisting in this matter , were to come about the sham , and under the disguise of purchasing plantations in carolina . about the beginning of june they come to town , the two cambels , sir john cockram , and mr. monrow . sir andrew foster he tells you , he met with some of the men , and they told him , they came about the business of carolina ; and so the cant of carolina is made good in this circumstance that way ; but when the plot brake out , these men sculk , one flies one way , another another ; some were taken as they were escaping away by water ; others of them were taken upon the bed at noon-day in more-fields : had the business they came over into england about , been a fair , and a lawful , and honest business , why should they hide themselves ? why should any man sneak and sculk , and be ashamed to own an honest and lawful business ? but this does humor and touch the thing exactly , as to that circumstance , that carolina was onely a cant for to disguise their coming over . these are the onely two circumstances that seem to be pretty strong for them , to prove , and support the credibility of what their witness has sworn . for , gentlemen , what a wonderful sort of expectation would it be , that we shall never convict a man of high treason , unless you can bring a man to be a witness that is not concern'd ? for then all these persons must have been acquitted , for they intrusted none , it seems , but these six , they took care they would keep it amongst themselves . do you think they called their servants to be witnesses of what they were about ? that is a vain and idle imagination ? in the popish plot , what witnesses of it had you there ? were they strangers to the plot ? no , you cannot expect any witnesses but such as the nature of the case will bear . this is the meaning of the evidence that has been given for the king , and it carries a great weight in it . but they have made an objection , which indeed is not remote , but may concern the question very much . say they , if we prove my lord of essex was not there , or such an one was not there , would it not discredit the evidence of my lord howard ? yes , certainly , it would wholly discredit it , and he were not to be believed at all ; nay , which is yet nearer to the question , if mr. hambden , that had notice all along of the times fixed wherein this transaction was , to wit , about the middle of january , and beginning of february . for because they talk of the prints , mr. hambden had from them sufficient notice , and intimation of the time. if mr. hambden , that hath had all this notice , could have proved before you , that he was in france , or any other place at that time , that had been wonderful material . but all the circumstances that are any way significant to support the credit of this matter , are very well proved ; and so the testimony of my lord howard is by these concurrent circumstances of fact , sufficiently supported . now , gent. i must tell you , this being the substance of the evidence for the king ; i will now , as near as i can , give you an account of the evidence for the defendant ; it was opened by mr. williams very ingeniously for the advantage of his clyent ; as every man is bound to say what he can for his clyent . he made a great many objections against my lord howard ; for if he could but shake the testimony of my lord howard , then he might easily bring off his clyent ; and if you , upon any thing that has been offered , either in evidence , or by way of observation fairly made from the evidence , do believe my lord howard has forsworn himself , you must find mr. hambden , the defendant , not guilty ; but if you believe he has not forsworn himself , you must find him guilty . so all our matter is reduced into a very narrow compass ; and therefore i must repeat it again what i said at the beginning , if my memory do not serve me to recollect all right , the councel for the defendant shall have free liberty to inform the court of what has been omitted . first , says mr. williams , my lord howard was a man very deep in a conspiracy with my lord shaftsbury , by his own acknowledgment , endeavouring to conciliate a friendship between the duke of monmouth and my lord shaftsbury ; and so he had a great hand in the plot ; and what he might do on purpose to get himself out of danger from that plot , and procure his pardon , is not known . it is a very strange thing , that it should be an objection before he had his pardon , that he did it for fear , and to get his pardon ; and when he has it , now the objection is , because he has his pardon ; and he got it , say they , by this means . it seems , whether he had his pardon or no , it must be an objection against him : before he had it , he was under the fear of not obtaining it , till the drudgery of swearing was over : but now he has his pardon , what now ? why , he does it on purpose to accuse other people . why , he says no more now , than what he has said before he was pardoned ; and if after he is pardoned , when he is under no dread or fear because of his guilt , he says the same things that he did when he might be in fear , how can that be an objection to him ? it cannot be thought he does it to save his own life , for that is as safe now by his pardon , as it can any way be ; and 't is , and must be a great satisfaction to his mind , and will be so to any other reasonable mans mind ; and is a plain answer to the objection of his fear , ( for 't is a captious age we live in , that will make some specious objection or other , though it be not of any great weight ) . but how can it be thought a man would come and swear too much , or too far , for fear he should not save himself : or as they call it , swear himself into a pardon , when he has his pardon ? it might be an objection before ; but as long as he is under no such terrors now , but stands right , both by the laws of god and man to be heard as a witness , i think it would be hard for any to come , and say , this man would for swear himself . what should provoke him to come and forswear himself , when he is under no danger as to his own particular ? there might be an umbrage , i say , of an objection before he had his pardon , though it was , indeed , no objection before ; not a rational weighty one , to set aside his testimony . but nobody knows which way in the world to satisfie the minds of some sort of people . in the next place , gent. says mr. williams , you are not positive as to the time ; you say , it was about the middle of january , and the beginning of february , and that is too general and wide ; but you remember particularly to a day the business between you and my lord of shaftsbury , that , that was the day after michaelmas day : how can you be so particular as to the one , and not as particular as to the other ? why , i will undertake that mr. vvilliams , when he made the objection , must needs think of the answer that would be given to it . it is notoriously known , that the pressures these gentlemen thought they lay under , were what my lord of shaftbury said , now they have got the juries into their own power , and no man is safe ; they will find me or any man guilty , as they please ; why , how came they to get juries into their own hands , but by having the sheriffs as they would have them ? now the sheriffs that are to return juries , are , as all men know that know any thing , sworn the day before michaelmas day ; therefore he might very well , and had good reason to remember that day ; when such a notorious thing happens to fall out at such a notorious time , 't is easier for a man to remember that time , than to speak to the particular time of an action done about the middle of a month , where there is not such a notorious circumstance . why , i can tell you very well where i was upon the day before michaelmas day ; upon that day , and the day after ; for that very reason , because it was a notorious day about the swearing of sheriffs in london . but if you ask me , where i was the middle of january , or the middle of february , i cannot so well remember that . but there is credit to be given to a man that speaks to a notorious circumstance , and thereby proves the probability of what he says , tho he should not be so particular in a thing that admits not of such a notorious circumstance . gentlemen , i make the objections as they are stated on the one side , and on the other side ; and the answers that naturally flow to prove the matters before you one way or other ; and you are to judge , you are to weigh them ; and which has the greater credit with you , you are to take notice of . he does say , in the next place , here was a discourse of arms and armed men , and a great sum of money spoken of , but there breaks out nothing of this matter till july following ; but this debate was in january , and february before . for that matter , the answer that is given , and it seems to be a plain one , is , that they were to conciliate a correspondence with people that were abroad , and that they could not go on till they had effected that , and till these people came to joyn with them , which could not be without some time . and you hear the cockrams and the cambels came not to the town , till june or july ; so that it was not probable it should break out till then , because it was to be agitated upon their coming here . and so that objection is answered , they did not apprehend any such necessity for present engaging in it . for , my lord howard , because he thought it would be a work of time to settle the correspondence , and get these people to town , went down to his country house in essex , and from thence to the bath , for he did apprehend some considerable time must be spent ere these pople could come ; and therefore he thought it convenient to take his retirement in the mean time . ay , but 't is strange , says mr. williams , and he makes that another objection ; he would have my lord howard to draw in this accusation of mr. hambden , to procure his pardon , by going further than the other discoverers had gone . it seems , say they , mr. hambden was not thought of at first ; but because west and keeling had discovered a plot , my lord howard , to secure himself , must go a step further than they , and ( as the defendants councel would have it ) than the truth ; and that is the stress of the objection . but the weight of the proof is quite different ; for all men know , in the plot there were several parts . there was the business of keeling and vvest , and that was the assassination of the king and the duke ; but the duke of monmouth , my lord howard and those other gentlemen , were for the business of the rising , tho that might be in order to that other purpose ; but they kept not company with those that were ingaged in that part of the design . they were the underlings , the scoundrel plotters , that were concerned in the assassination . but these gentlemen looked upon themselves to be the privy councellors , not to be the executioners ; they were to be only advisers , what was to be done after that other business was over ; and their consultations were for raising of men for an insurrection ; not the business of the assassination of the king , that was not their province . can it then be an objection against my lord howard , because he gives a testimony vvest and keeling could not give ? could they go further then the killing of the king , which was their business ? if any man should have asked my lord howard about that matter , he would have made answer , it was not for that purpose that we met together at mr. hamden's , and my lord russel's ; no , that was upon a particular business , and to a particular end and purpose . then he says too , that tho my lord howard comes here upon his oath , and declares these several matters that he hath deposed ; yet he has given a different accompt of things elsewhere , and he has called several witnesses to that purpose . to whom my lord howard several times upon his honour , upon his word , with eyes lifted up , and hands elevated to heaven , and many extraordinary protestations , declared , that he knew nothing of the plot ; and say they , if a man will at one time pawn his honour , and his reputation , for the truth of a thing , and after that , will come again to swear against all that matter , that is an argument that does sink the credit and reputation of that witness ; and thereupon they call you several witnesses , some whereof are persons of great honour and quality . i think they begin first with ducas , servant to col. sidney , and he tells you , after his master was taken , my lord howard came thither , and desired he might lye there ; and desired the use of some plate and goods of col. sidney's ; and then asked , what was become of his master ? and when ducas told him what he heard of the plot , that something was talked of , about the assassination of the king and the duke , my lord howard lift up his eyes , and his hands to heaven , and declared he knew nothing of it , but he believed col. sidney was a very honest man , and knew nothing at all of any such matter ; and as for himself , rather than he would be taken or confined again , he would do any thing . this was the evidence they gave as to him . then they come with mr. howard their d. witness ; for i would take them in order as they were produced , and he gives you an account , that he met with my lord howard , and my lord howard told him he knew nothing at all of any plot , and did believe that col. sidney was innocent , and he did believe likewise that my lord russel was innocent , and for his part he knew nothing of any such thing as a plot , but he says when he began to talk to him , why did he make such a bustle and go so often into the city and concern himself about the making of sheriffs ? he answered , i do nothing but what is in a legal way , and he justified all that was done to be only in a legal way . when once people come to believe that the raising of tumults , and making seditions , stirs and noises is a legal way to obtain their ends , as we know 't is the tenet and principle of a great many people , what will they not do under that pretence , that all they do is according to law ? they think it is lawful by the religion they profess to resist and oppose the government , and the old cause is a good cause to this day in some mens opinion , and they can die in it , and thank god for being concerned in it . and there are some people that say the raising of arms by the king's authority against his person is lawful by the religion they profess , and they call themselves protestants , ( how justly you may imagine ) and if men will make insurrections to difficult the government , it is rebellion , and no man can justifie it , let him pretend conscience or what he will , 't is rank treason . it is not saying , i am thus persuaded in my conscience that will excuse the man , if i steer my self by the dictates of a good and regular conscience , it can never be thought that i shall commit treason but it is the effect of evil principles . was it not under the shape of religion , that that blessed martyr king charles the first of ever blessed memory came to the block ; nay , and i have heard of some men in the late times that were ingaged on that side , who finding that the king did prevail at the beginning of the war , because he had gentlemen of quality and spirit to appear for him , were at a loss to know which way in the world they should put a spirit into the common people to oppose the king ; and some among them bid them be sure to put religion to be but the pretence , and that would make them run headlong to what they would have them . whose opinion that was is not strange to any that know any thing of the history of those times . so that when once people take it to be the principle of their religion to oppose and resist all that are not of their persuasion , and for religion sake to resist authority , then they think all is lawful they can do to preserve their religion as long as they are wound up to that opinion . their next witness , gentlemen , is my lord of clare , and he gives you an account of his discourse with my lord howard . and by the way i must observe what i am very sorry for with all my heart , to hear that among gentlemen of quality and honour discourses of the government and the male-administration of it as they think should be onely matter of jest fit for their recreation , and laughter , onely merry table-talk , as though government so sacred a thing were as mean as any trivial concern whatsoever . i am sorry to hear and see that persons of great honour and quality should esteem it so . and i must be pardoned if i take notice of it : for matters of government and yielding obedience to superiours is a matter of religion , 't is a serious matter , and every man ought to make conscience of it . to talk of government with reverence as well as pay duty and obedience to it . and when i find it made a jest i must be permitted to say that is not so well done , and whoever it is that makes it so ought very much to be blamed . my lord of clare comes and testifies , that my lord howard told him , he did not believe my lord russel was guilty of what he was accused of , much less did he believe it of col. sidney , and when he began to talk about writings found in sidney's closet , he said , there can be nothing of his writings found that can do him or any man else any hurt . this is the substance of what that noble lord has said . then there is my lord paget , and he likewise gives an account , that he had some discourse with my lord howard about the plot ; and he told him too , that he did not believe any thing of this plot , or that my lord russel and others accused had any hand in it . but i would observe this one thing upon my lord paget's testimony , that still my lord howard was wish'd joy by every body , and i am glad to see your heels at liberty , and the like . so that there was some jealousie of his being concerned ; some thing or other there was in it . says my lord howard , i look upon my self as affronted that any body should talk so of me . he was concerned that they should suspect him . but something there was at the bottom . says my lord paget , i am glad to hear you are out of it . for he began to imagine there must be some fire for all this smoak . that , gentlemen , was the discourse he had with him . but he says , that with my lord paget there were discourses of his going beyond sea , but he did not go . then comes dr. burnet , and he tells you , that there were protestations made to him , and he has got the same words as the french man had , that he did it with lifted up eyes and hands , he professed solemnly he was altogether a stranger to any such thing . the dr. says , he had heard there was a plot , and was persuaded of the truth of it , but he was a little shaken by what my lord howard said to him . but now he is sufficiently satisfied there is a plot , and i am glad he is , for i think it scarce does remain a doubt with any men that have any value for the religion and government we live under . and i know not how they could be better satisfied than by the evidence that has been given of it , a main part of which was given by my lord howard . all this was before my lord howard was taken . then comes in one mr. gisborne , and he tells you the same story , that a great while ago my lord howard told him he knew nothing of the plot. the next to him is mr. blake , and he tells you , that after such time as the plot was discovered , and after my lord russel was tryed , and after my lord howard had given evidence at the old baily , he shew'd him the warrant for his pardon , and blake telling him that was not sufficient without an actual pardon ; he replyed , i think in my conscience i shall not have a pardon till the drudgery of swearing is over . but is that any argument ? here is a man under the drudgery of swearing ; therefore he did not know any such thing as he swears . it carries thus much along with it , that it was uneasie to him , and there is a kind of a force put upon him to swear as they say in order to his pardon . but now , gentlemen , that will admit of this answer , and a plain one certainly it is , when a man comes over and over again to tell the world such a story and give such an account of himself , it must a little grate upon him though it be his duty to tell the truth , and though as mr. williams says , he is the best martyr that is a martyr for truth ; even so say i on the other side , he is the best penitent that is a penitent for truth , and he is the best witness that is a witness for truths sake , and he gives the best testimony of his repentance that by his testimony declares the truth though it be harsh and uneasie to him ; for if i have any ingenuity , and have lived in good credit in the world , it must be a drudgery and irksom thing to call my self a traytor so often in a court of justice . it is true , he might have given it a more moderate term , and yet withal upon these circumstances he might have reason to call it in some sense a drudgery . but now , gentlemen , as he did swear it before he had his pardon from time to time upon all occasions when he was called as a witness . so now the pardon is come , which they would have to be the reason of the continuance of his drudgery he swears the same thing . he has his pardon under the king's seal , and though it might be thought they would keep him within the compass of his tether till he had done his evidence ; now he has got that he desired he swears the same thing . and now his pardon does not at all influence his testimony , he is not under any fear , but is as free as any subject the king has , and now he is upon his oath , he gives you the account you have had , and he did say all the same things before such time as col. sidney , my l. russel were tryed that he says now . then , gentlemen , you have in the next place witnesses called , several of them to give you an account of the conversation and disposition of mr. hambden ; for says mr. williams , for a man to be guilty of a crime of this nature there must be some kind of evil disposition to it , and so mr. williams would argue and make this inference . you see he is not a man of a turbulent , seditious and factious spirit and temper , he is a studious person , very retired , that has been beyond sea much , and came not home till such a time . and if there were interlocutions between my lord howard and my lord shaftsbury it was before he came into england , and so he was not concerned in them . he says , that march last he was to go again , he had a mind to return again to france for his health , and what reason have we to imagine he should concern himself in the plot ? when he was so studious a man , lived so retired a life , and intended to go abroad so suddenly . and for this you have my lord paget , mr. pelham . sir henry hobart , dr. lupee , monsieur justel , and one murray . mr. williams . murray , my lord , we did not examine . lord chief justice . 't is true , i beg your pardon . well then , these others tell you , they have been persons very intimately conversant with him , they never knew he concerned himself with any thing about government , but was of a quiet peaceable demeanor , and was so far from that which the indictment talks of turbulency and sedition , that they never had any discourse with him about any such thing at all , save what dr. lupee says , who it seems lived with him about two years , and kept him company in his studies , and that once having some discourse about the popish plot ; he said he would venture his life and any thing he had to preserve the king and government against that plot ; he did very well , and if he had since declared , he would have ventured his life to have secured the king and government , against this plot , i should have been glad to find him of that mind , i pray god you may find him to be so . but from the evidence even of that french man , it seems there was some jealousie in the world , and that he lay under hard censures as well as other people . for speaking of the plot the advice given him was this . my lord grey is gone and the duke of monmouth is gone , why won't you go ? why should that advice be given , if there were no suspition of his being concerned . that he said i will not go , and so they would make his staying here to be an instance and proof of his innocence ; why gentlemen , if that should be so , then there was the same innocency in my lord russel , and col. sidney , and all of them : for all the council of six every one of them stay'd , except the duke of monmouth and he indeed did abscond . and the same evidence that made the duke of monmouth fly , and my lord essex out his own throat convicted my lord russel and col. sidney , and is now brought against the defendant , and has from time to time been given against the rest . we know no reason that they had to stay more than west or romsey had to stay and be taken , and yet that is not used by them as an argument of their innocency . these are the evidences that have been given on the defendants part ; and i tell you as i go along what answers are given to it on the part of the king. as to what is spoken of his intention to go again into france , if he designed to go , why did he not go before all this mischief broke out ? he came here at michaelmas , and i may say he came it may be at an unlucky time , when the city and its neighbourhood was in a distemper , and some men were blown with fears and jealousies . these might animate him , and inspirit him as they did other people , and put them into a ferment ; but you find him attending in town constantly here till the matter was discovered , whatsoever his intentions were , 't is much he did not put them into action , 't is strange he did not go all this while , it had been much for his advantage that he had never come out of france , or that he had returned thither much sooner . against all this that has been urged for the defendant about my lord howard , i will tell you , what is the answer to it ; and truly first i say , i am apt to believe my lord howard did tell these gentlemen what they here testifie ; but was it ever thought that any man that was guilty of high treason would presently proclaim his own guilt ? is it reasonable to imagine , my lord howard would tell dr. burnet i am in a plot , and col. sidney is in a plot , and mr. hambden is in a plot , and make it his common talk ; nay , it is so far from being an argument of his innocency , that more naturally it may be turned upon them as an argument of his guilt . for if a man had not been concerned in the business at all , but were an honest man , and free from suspition , what need i talk or concern my self to proclaim my own innocency not being accused ? why must i tell col. sidney's footman , this man , the other man , that i know nothing of the plot , and neither i nor any other man i am sure is concerned in it ? but that shews there was a dread and apprehension upon him of something that he was conscious of , and that lying within must have some vent , and this over-caution is an intimation that there was something more than ordinary in the matter . we take notice of it as a great evidence against a man that is accused for an high-way man , if he comes to such an ale-house or inn , and bids the people take notice i am here at such a time of the day , and that is a circumstance of time that will serve to answer a proof , it may be that may be brought against him of a robbery done such a time ; but we always look upon that industry of theirs as a piece of artifice designed to patch up a testimony to evade a proof . so that the argument will turn the other way ; and 't is more for the advantage of these worthy gentlemen , that it should be turned the other way , for otherwise they would be thought to be persons ill-affected to the government ; that is dr. burnet , my lord paget , my lord clare , and the rest . and if they have a mind to be thought otherwise , they must let the argument run that way as i say , and in charity we ought to believe the best of all mankind till we find otherwise by them . we say then in charity , we suppose he thought it not fit to intrust you with his confessions ; for you are all loyal men , i know 't is the best answer that can be given , and that which they ought to value themselves upon for their own credit and reputation , and not to make it an argument against my lord howard , or against the credibility of his testimony in the metter . i don't know truly , gentlemen , that i have omitted any one thing that is material , on the one side or on the other , of which there hath been any proof , but i must onely repeat to you this , here is a matter of great concern and consequence , a matter wherein the peace of the government and the kingdom is concerned in a very high degree , a matter , that if there were another witness as positive against the defendant as my lord howard , would amount to no less than high treason . but as there is but one witness backed with these circumstances to corroborate his testimony , 't is but onely a trespass , but i tell you it treads very nigh upon high treason , and the tendency of it was to bring us all into confusion and what would be the consequence of that but to lay us open to the same mischiefs that we were under in the times of the late rebellion . for though men pretend never so fair , and vail it under the names of the security of the government and the protestant religion , yet they would have done well to have tarried till they had a legal authority to call them to consult of these high matters that they pretend to secure , that had been well . what had these gentlemen to do to take upon themselves this power without authority ? gentlemen , you have heard the evidence , and you see what it is . and i must say , in the late evidences you have had concerning another business of this nature , i wish that might be said to preserve and support the credit of some persons upon whose testimonies lives have been taken away as has been said , and is evident for the advantage of my lord howard . i do not find that he has been guilty of perjury , as being concerned in taking oaths one way and then giving evidence another . i mean , first taking oaths of secresie and then revealing ; not but that notwithstanding all this , they may be believed , and god forbid but they should be believed according to truth . but i say , if objections of this nature are to prevail we must never expect any great crime to be punished , because we must stay till persons that are strangers to the guilt of the fact come to give evidence of it , which is impossible to be done . therefore , gentlemen , i must resolve it all into one head ; you have the case of a gentleman of quality on the one side , and the peace and preservation of the government on the other side . you hear what is proved against him , the evidence given on his behalf , the objections that have been made by the counsel , which all of them as near as i can remember i have repeated to you , and i ask your pardon and theirs if i have omitted any thing , and i desire to be minded of it . you hear the answers that have been given . and because the counsel were unwilling to give the court trouble or themselves to make long speeches and observations , therefore i have been necessitated to do it as well i can . upon the whole matter , my lord howard has thus positively sworn the matter of fact charged in the indictment against the defendant ; he has been supported by the witnesses that confirm the circumstances of smith's going into scotland , the scotch-men's being here in june , and the sham and cant. of carolina . all which you have heard , and i make no question observed , and is not contradicted by any thing i hear that carries any probability of an answer . therefore , gentlemen , i leave it to you , whether upon this evidence you will take it upon your consciences and oaths , that my lord howard is guilty of wilful and corrupt perjury , then you must find the defendant not guilty ; but if you think he has proved the matter fully , and his testimony is supported by those four witnesses , atterbury , sir andrew foster , sheriff , and bale , then gentlemen , you must find the defendant guilty . juriman . my lord , we desire to ask one question . at the meeting at mr. hamden's house , i think my lord howard says they went to dinner . mr. just . holloway . no , it was at coll. sidney's they went to dinner . l. c. j. i know not whether you have taken notice of it , but i have , it was at coll. sidney's they dined , not at mr. hambden's . then the jury withdrew from the bar , and within half an hour the jury returned , and being called over answered to their names , and gave in their verdict thus : cl. of crown . are you all agreed of your verdict ? omnes . yes . cl. of cr. who shall say for you ? omnes . foreman . cl. of cr. how say you ? is the defendant guilty of the trespass and misdemeanor whereof he is impeached , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . which verdict being recorded , the court rose . martis . februarii , an. . b. r. l. c. j. mr. attorney , have you any thing to move ? mr. at. gen. i pray your judgment against mr. hambden , my lord , who was convicted the other day of a great misdemeanor . l. c. j. let mr. hambden come into the court then . which he did . mr. at. gen. my lord , i need not aggravate the hainousness of the offence ; for it appears both by the information , and upon the evidence to be beyond all aggravation , wherefore i shall onely pray your judgment for the king , that you would please to set a good fine upon him , and that he find sureties for his good behaviour during his life . mr. williams . may it please your lordship , i am of counsel for mr. hambden . l. c. j. are the rules out in this cause ? mr. williams . yes , my lord , they are out . l. c. j. well then , what say you for mr. hambden ? mr. williams . mr. hambden does attend here according to the condition of his recognizance , and since mr. attorney hath prayed your judgment , i shall not stir any thing as to the indictment or the verdict , but all i have to say for him is this , mr. hambden is but heir apparent , his father is alive ; and so though he has the prospect of a good estate , yet he has but little at present in possession ; your lordship knows what magna charta says , that there should be a salvo contenemento in all fines , and how far that may be an ingredient into your lordships judgment , i leave to your consideration . l. c. j. for that matter i cannot tell what his estate is , i have no knowledg of him , nor of his estate whether it be great or small , but mr. williams knows very well , that the crime in conscience as well as law in case it had been proved by two witnesses , would not only have wrought a forfeiture of all his estate , but a forfeiture of his life too , and all his reputation , would have bastardized his children , would have attainted and corrupted his bloud . so that there is no sort of imagination but that the crime was high enough of conscience ; and certainly deserves , if we can impose it adequate to its desert a very great punishment . mr. hambden , nor his counsel can deny but that they had a fair and a full hearing , they had the liberty to say and prove all that they could , and you cannot but say mr. attorney was very fair in making several concessions that he might very lawfully and rightly insisted upon . so that there can be no exception of that kind . i am sorry that mr. hambden a gentleman of good quality as he is by birth , though he be a person i never saw before he came here the last day of the last term upon his habeas corpus that i know of . i say , i am sorry one of his quality and education , a studious person as it seems by his own natural inclination , and a learned man should be so unhappily engaged in a design of this horridly evil nature . but on the one side as well as we must take care of the subject , so on the other we must take care of the government . here was a design of destroying the king , and subverting the government and bringing all into confusion . of this design the defendant is convicted , and we must take care to proportion the punishment , and according to our consciences and oaths , and as we ought to have regard to the offender , so also we are to have regard to the government that he has offended . mr. j. wythens . mr. williams , it was amercements that were spoken of there in magna charta . l. c. j. ay , it was never meant of fines for great offences . then the judges consulted together . mr. j. wythens . mr. hambden , you know you are convicted of a very great offence as great an offence as can be i think committed , unless it were high treason . for the matter of it would have made you guilty , if there had been two witnesses . it was for conspiring to levy war against his majesty , and for conspiring to raise an insurrection and rebellion within the kingdom , a conspiracy of which some other persons being lawfully convicted , they have suffered death for it . you are a person of an extraordinary good family . and i am sorry one of your family that has flourished so long and through so many generations in great honour and reputation , and great prosperity under the monarchy of england , should come to conspire to deprive that king of his government , whose ancestors have protected and defended your family , and to spoil that monarchy that has been the fountain of so much prosperity and honour to it . i am sorry it comes to my turn to pronounce the sentence of the court upon you , mr. hambden . i have not any personal knowledg of you , but i have heard of you , and heard heretofore very well of you . you have had a good education and the report of a learned and ingenuous person , which makes me yet wonder the more that you should engage in such a horrid design as this was . indeed mr. hambden , i am satisfied no fine can be too great , if any can be great enough for such an offence . we cannot take cognizance what your estate is , 't is reported there is a great estate in your family , it has been always represented to be so . mr. hambden . i have nothing but for life , and that is but little neither . mr. j. wythens . i know not what it is truly , sir. but it was always reported to me to be a very great estate , but whatsoever it is , we are to look after the proportioning the punishment as near as we can to the offence . my lord , and the court have considered of the matter , and they think fit to give this judgment upon you . they set the fine of forty thousand pounds upon you to be paid to the king , and you must be committed till you pay it . l. c. j. and that you find sureties for your good behaviour during your life . mr. att. gen. i pray he may be committed for his fine . l. c. j. let it be so . mr. hambden , if you will apply your self to the king , you may , and there perhaps you may find mercy ; we must according to the duty of our places and oaths give such judgment as the law requires . mr. just . withins . ay , in god's name . you are in the king's hands , and he may do what he pleases in it . l. c. j. if a crime of this nature should have a little punishment , it might encourage offenders , and if we were to judg according to some verdicts that have been given here for less offences , where gentlemen have given very much greater damages than thi● fine amounts to , this would be thought a moderate fine . i am sorry any man should bring himself into these circumstances : the king as he is the fountain of justice , so he is also of mercy , and you and all the rest of his subjects have cause to bless god that you live under a monarch that is very merciful . no doubt , if you give a good account of your contrition and sorrow for your great offence , and decently apply your self to the king , he will think of shewing mercy to you ; but justice is our work that are judges ; and according to the methods of justice we think we cannot inflict less than we have done . mr. williams . my lord , i pray his bail may be discharged . l. c. j. ay , his bail is discharged , he being committed . mr. williams . and for the high treason he is discharged by the habeas corpus act. l. c. j. yes , he is so , for there is no prosecution . then mr. hambden was carried by the marshal away prisoner . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e then the dr. was sworn , and the oath repeated to him by sir h. h. in french. then doctor needham was sworn . the proceedings in the house of commons, touching the impeachment of edward, late earl of clarendon, lord high-chancellour of england, anno with the many debates and speeches in the house, the impeachment exhibited against him, his petition in answer thereto : as also the several weighty arguments concerning the nature of treason, bribery, &c. by serj. maynard, sir ed. s., sir t.l., mr. vaughan, sir rob. howard, mr. hambden [sic], and other members of that parliament : together with the articles of high-treason exhibited against the said earl, by the earl of bristol in the house of lords on the th of july, : with the opinion of all the learned judges therein. england and wales. parliament. house of commons. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the proceedings in the house of commons, touching the impeachment of edward, late earl of clarendon, lord high-chancellour of england, anno with the many debates and speeches in the house, the impeachment exhibited against him, his petition in answer thereto : as also the several weighty arguments concerning the nature of treason, bribery, &c. by serj. maynard, sir ed. s., sir t.l., mr. vaughan, sir rob. howard, mr. hambden [sic], and other members of that parliament : together with the articles of high-treason exhibited against the said earl, by the earl of bristol in the house of lords on the th of july, : with the opinion of all the learned judges therein. england and wales. parliament. house of commons. clarendon, edward hyde, earl of, - . vaughan, john, sir, - . seymour, edward, sir, - . littleton, thomas, sir, d. . hampden, richard, - . maynard, john, sir, - . howard, robert, sir, - . england and wales. parliament. house of lords. the second edition carefully corrected. [ ], p. s.n.], [london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng clarendon, edward hyde, -- earl of, - . trials (treason) -- england. great britain -- history -- charles ii, - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the proceedings in the house of commons , touching the impeachment of edward late earl of clarendon , lord high-chancellour of england , anno . with the many debates and speeches in the house . the impeachment exhibited against him . his petition in answer thereto . as also the several weighty arguments concerning the nature of treason , bribery , &c. by serj. maynard , sir ed. s. sir t. l. mr. vaughan , sir rob. howard , mr. hambden , and other members of that parliament . together , with the articles of high-treason exhibited against the said earl , by the earl of bristol in the house of lords on the th of iuly , . with the opinion of all the learned judges therein . the second edition carefully corrected . printed in the year , . the preface , to the reader . i think there needs not much be said to recommend the following sheets to the intelligent reader . it has been the opinion of the wisest men that letters , memoirs , and publick speeches , have ever been the clearest and most exact histories of times , and have given the truest light into the spirit and bent of a people , especially , where liberty , that darling of the vniverse , that sweetest cordial of mankind , bears sway ; and where shall we find it so justly , claim'd so strenuously maintain'd as in our english constitution ? a constitution so exactly sitted for the preserving that inestimable jewel , that the deepest arts and subtilties of the most crafty statesmen cou'd never yet undermine , or ravish our envied freedom from us ; on the contrary , they have ever met their own destruction , when they have been so rash as to make the attempt ; and i dare boldly say , that we our selves must give it away , if ever we are not masters of it ; for it cannot be forc'd from us . if we reflect on the hardships other nations groan vnder , and then consider the plenty and ease we sensibly enjoy , we must justly honour the memories of our glorious ancestors , who have handed down so dear a prize to us . if we look backward , we shall find there have been great attempts , both open and secret , to break in upon , or lessen our just rights and priviledges , but there have ever been persons of generous spirits and unshaken resolutions , who have nobly oppos'd the bold invaders , being neither to be aw'd nor brow-beaten by any higher power , nor brib'd by the most advantageous offers of profit or honour , to betray so glorious a cause : we have never yet found a wicked councellour or an evil minister that cou'd escape the justice of a house of commons . 't is true in some former reigns a parliament was no very desirable thing , and seldom call'd , but whenever they met they bravely attack'd the enemies of the nation tho' never so potent , and brought down such as have thought themselves secure , and out of reach ; and i trust , as we have not yet , we never shall , see ill men in such a station . we live now ( god be thanked ) in a time when we need not fear encroachments on our just liberties and properties ; are we not blest with a king who hath no design to enslave or burthen his people ? have we not ministers that act with uprightness and integrity ? are we not rul'd by a monarch who makes the interest of the nation his own , and regards merit only in the choice of his ministers ? do we see any court-minion or haughty favorite advanc'd ? or any man of worth pass unregarded and despis'd ? in short , have we not a king who only thinks himself happy , because he sees his people so ? and as the common adage has it , regis ad exemplum . do we not see our grandees following their great masters steps ? are not envy and ambition now banish'd the palace gates ? what courtiers do we now find breaking their promises , or giving only words instead of just performances ? do they now covet perferments to get vast estates ? are they not contented with their moderate perquisites ? what ministers can the most observing eye find guilty of acting , or advising , ill ? or who amongst them are afraid to stand the test of the severest scrutiny ? such is the happiness we now enjoy , such are the blessings of our present administration . but i have wander'd beyond my purpose , my zeal to so much goodness has carry'd me wide of my design , which was to say something by way of preface of the following sheets , which were publish'd not to reflect on the memory of any , but at the desire of some very iudicious persons , who thought it pitty a collection so fill'd with law and solid sense shou'd be kept secret ; and i believe none , who read it , but will highly applaud the publishing . the world must own that the learned persons , whose speeches are contain'd in the following pages , have been famous for the depth of their iudgment , and profoundness of their sense , and many of them have been justly esteem'd the most eminent lawyers of their time : i shall only add that several of our greatest men have highly valued it in manuscript , and i doubt not but all who read it , will think it fit , not only for a lawyer 's , but every english gentleman's study . a collection of proceedings in the house of commons , about impeaching the earl of clarendon , late l d , chancellor . with the debates and speeches concerning that matter . october th , . mr. ed. seym. charged him viva voce with many great crimes , whereupon a debate arose what proceeding ought to be had upon it , some moving to impeach him in the name of the commons till articles should be prepared , others urg'd , that witnesses should be first examined to see how the charge could be made good , least failing , it should reflect on the honour of the house ; after long debate , a committee was appointed to search records for parliamentary proceedings in the like cases , and to make report . th , the report being made by sir tho. litt. that various proceedings were found in several parliaments , it occasioned a long debate , several members speaking to the effect following , sir tho. litt. that in cases criminal , they find proceedings to have been , sometimes by articles , sometimes by word of mouth ; but in capital crimes no proceedings appear till the earl of strafford's case , against whom the house carried up a general impeachment , the reason whereof seems to be this : some votes were made in the house at which the king takes offence , as if they would proceed upon common fame ; whereupon they vindicate their proceedings as done in a parliamentary way , and appoint a committee to withdraw for about half an hour to consider the matter for a conference with the lords about the charge , and upon their report a general charge is carryed up to the lords bar ; the principal charge then was for advising to bring over the irish army , and the single proof was sir henry vane , so the impeachment went up for high-treason , tho' no member would positively say he would make the charge good . so for the bishop of canterbury there was no impeachment , but a charge in general . and if you take not the same course now , but insist upon examining witnesses first , the difficulties will be unanswerable ; for is it like that men before they shall see you in earnest will have their names produced against the earl of clarendon ? if this be your proceeding , we must never expect to impeach a great man more . if you think there is nothing in the charge leave it , but if you think 't is worth your while take heed of making such a dangerous president as by neglecting it to wound your liberties ; but proceed in the usual way with a general impeachment . serj. mayn . i stand not up to give advice , but to speak to matter of fact in the business of strafford and canterbury ; i attended that business from the beginning : sir , iohn clotworthy informed something against strafford to be direct treason , that he had assumed an arbitrary power in ireland , and dispossessed one savage by force of arms , and undertook to prove it . sir henry vane also told them that he had a note taken out of his fathers cabinet , containing the advice which strafford gave the king in that case . namely , the king wanting money , and the question being how he should supply it , he replyed , that if the parliament was refractory and would not , you stand loosed and absolved from rules of government ; you have an army in ireland which you may employ to reduce them . then there was a debate whether they should accuse him of treason . and sir edward herbert ( the attorney ) said , if you are perswaded the truth is , as is pretended , you may , and so it was ; but when the close committee had examined the business , they moved the house , that some lawyers might be added to them , and had they gone , when they said they were ready , they had not touched one hair of strafford's head. then it was considered what was fit to be done : to accuse him of treason would be a dangerous president , as if out of many other crimes a treason could be drawn , thereupon it was resolved not to demand judgment from the lords , because some articles were not treason . then it was propounded not to state what his offences were , lest it should give advantage to inferior courts so to proceed ; but said he deserved to be accused of treason , and in conclusion a proviso was added , not to make that case a president . for the bishop of canterbury , the four articles were general , and he was long in prison without any proceeding against him ; but after long time he demurr'd , then new articles were framed , on which he dyed . mr. iohn vaugh. you have had a charge opened of a strange nature , and i know not what part of it can be proved , but the reputation of this house is at stake , and of the king too ; for , where a charge is brought in by some of your members , whereof one article is , that he should say such words , of the king , as by a statue made by you is a praemunire , and to give councel to levy war upon the kingdom ; is it agreeable to our duty to the king and kingdom to let it die ? for the person concerned , i know not which way his honour can be whole without his giving an answer to his charge ; for mark the consequence , if the king should take him to favour again before clear'd , will not the world say a person is received to favour again , who gave the king councel against the kingdom , and traduc'd the king , and how can he be whole in his honour this way ; obj. but it will be said , we must have ground to put him to answer . ans. whether you have ground enough to prove i know not , but you have ground enough to make him answer to clear himself . suppose those two articles had been charged on a member of this house , what would it have become that member to do ; should he sit still and say , i will make no answer , but see whether the house will make more proof ; if he should do so , the not making an answer is reason enough to charge him . i can give you instances of persons charged in parliament , who , tho' not nominated , yet being ( as it were ) pointed at , petitioned that they might answer , and so would any man ; but when this is bruited up and down , will not the world say ? you never ask the party whether guilty . the duke of suffolk was charged upon common fame , and if that were a ground for a charge then ( which i do not say it was ) so it is in this case ; but he moved that he might be heard , and tho' it was desired he might be committed , yet it was justly rejectly till he had answered : then for the nature of the charge , if it be true , it is very high , but whether it be treason is another matter , it is brought to you under no name , when you make the charge , it becomes you to say what it is ; therefore choose a committee to reduce the accusation into heads , and bring them to you , without which you cannot right you selves , nor him , if innocent . for the way of it , it cannot be thought fit to publish your witnesses and the matter before-hand ; if in private causes the defendant and plaintiff should have a publication before hand , no cause would be rightly judged , much less when you have publication of all which concerns the one , but nothing of the other . again , if a witness be examined concerning matters in his own knowledg , if he gives evidence , where he is not brought judicially to give it , if he hath testified any thing which brings him within the statute of false news , how can he avoid the penalty ? for it s not enough for him to say he knows it but he must have others to justifie it . as for the persons who bring the charge , they are your own members , which the writs return for honest and discreet men , and if you are satisfied of that , how can you reject their complaint , tho' grounded upon common fame , as all accusations are , seeing they tell you , they can bring-proof of what they say ? then for common fame , if a man spends largely , and hath no visible way to get an estate , no man accuseth him to have gotten it unlawfully ; yet he may be put to clear himself from what common fame chargeth him with . upon suspicion of felony , i may bring a man before a magistrate to clear himself , so in the course of indictments , and presentments , a charge is given of what things are to be presented ? then a proclamation is made , that if any one can give evidence , he may be sworn , but if no evidence appear , yet they may indict . then it will be said , the oath is a material thing , but we are proceeding without an oath . to this i answer , what this house shall charge is of more authority than the oaths of ordinary witnesses ; peers tho' not upon oath are supposed to do right , so are we upon the reputation of our honesty and discretion . mr. l. h. i am sensible , the house may think me partial , but i shall endeavour to shew my self not so much a son of the earl of clarendon as a member of this house ; and i assure you that if he shall be found guilty , no man shall appear more against him than i ; if not , i hope every one will be for him as much as i ; let every man upon his conscience think what of this charge is true , for i believe that if one article be proved , he will own himself guilty of all . sir hen. fin. an impeachment there must be , if there be cause ; such accusations are not to be passed over in silence . i believe not one truth in the law more than this proposition , that there is no such thing as treason by common-law , or by equity , and we hold our lives by that law ; before the th of ed. the d. a man could scarce speak any think but it was treason in parliament or out , but no man ought to die as a traitor , who hath not literally offended that law , or some other made since : there is indeed in that law a proviso about the parliaments declaring what is treason , but note the danger of taking declaratory powers , which i fear hath brought us into a reckoning of blood , which we have not yet paid for . the power of parliaments is double , legislative , which hath no bounds , declaratory , by pronouncing judgments . and tho' i know not what the legislative power of a parliament cannot do , yet it is not in the power of the parliament , king , lords , nor commons , to declare any thing to be treason which is not in the common-law felony before . the proviso in strafford's case was ( it's true ) made for inferior courts ; but i hope we shall not so proceed as must needs draw after it a netrahatur in exemplum , and your own act this parliament shews , that all done by strafford , a-part , or together , was not treason : and it behoves us to take heed we thwart not our own argument . for the manner then , consider how you should proceed if it were out of parliament , and how the bringing of it into the house alters it . if it were out of parliament , without doubt the accusation should be proved before hand , and those who discover it are guilty of felony . this provides for the subject , that the witnesses must be two , and for the king , that none shall discover the evidence . but suppose the charge be for misdemeanours , the tryal then is not to be by the lords , but by the commons ; for the lords are his peers only in cases capital . how then doth the bringing it in to parliament alter the case ? if the parliament set aside laws in this case , we should be happy to see law declaring what is the power of parliaments . there is no president produced which is singly of weight to guide you , therefore if you proceed , let it be as near as possible by the good old laws ; namely , that there be an accusation founded upon an oath and the evidence kept secret , i propose that way for the very reason that others oppose it ( viz ) . the accusation goes over the kingdom , and it will bring dishonour to the house , the king , and the earl ; for the honour of the house , it will be hard to say , the charge was brought in upon misinformation ; a person accused for advising to bring in arbitrary government , &c. and for saying the king is not fit to govern ; if this be true , tho' it be not treason in the formality of the law , it deserves no less punishment then if it were ; but if not found guilty , consider the case . if one say , a killed a man and it is not so , must not he give reparation ? we have an accusation upon hear-say , but if it be not made good , the blackest scandal which hell can invent , lies at our door . then sir tho. m — rs moving to referr it to the committee of grievances . mr. vaugh. you should have put the first question before another had been moved , the earl of middlesex ( cranfield's case ) will not hold paralel ; he was accused of bribery , which might be proved by their own books , but this is for scandalizing the king , &c. and where shall the committee of grievances enquire about it ? you say let them hear the persons . but suppose they be of the lords house , can you send for them ? or if you do , will they come and say it ? the matter of this accusation is such , that if it lies in the knowledge of a single person , if he delivers it extrajudicially ( which he doth , if not upon oath ) he may be undone by it , and hazard his person too : at the committee of grievances the persons must be known , and what they can say , and then we may conclude what will follow : besides , their quality may be such as they cannot be brought , or their discretion such as they will not answer . sir rich. temp. tell but the lords that a man in publick place hath misbehaved himself , and they will sentence him , if he purge not himself ; never yet were witnesses examined before the tryal in case of treason or felony , for then , if there be two witnesses , a way may be found by poyson , or some other way , to take away one . serj. mayn . no man can do what is just , but he must have what is true before him ; where life is concern'd you ought to have a moral certainty of the thing , and every one be able to say upon this proof in my conscience , this man is guilty . common fame is no ground to accuse a man where matter of fact is not clear ; to say an evil is done , therefore this man hath done it , is strange in morality , more in logick . upon the whole debate it was voted , that the committee do reduce the accusation to heads and present them to this house . november th , . sir tho. litt. reports that the accusation was reduced to heads , which he read in his place , and afterwards delivered the same in at the clerks table , which are as followeth ' viz. i. that the earl of clarendon hath designed a standing army to be raised and to govern the kingdom thereby , and advised the king to dissolve this present parliament , to lay aside all thoughts of parliaments for the future , to govern by a military power , and to maintain the same by free quarter and contribution . ii. that he hath , in the hearing of the king's subjects , falsely and seditiously said , that the king was in his heart a papist , or popishly , affected , or words to that effect . iii. that he hath received great sums of money for the procuring of the canary patent , and other illegal patents ; and granted illegal injunctions to stop proceedings at law against them , and other illegal patents formerly granted . iv. that he hath advised and procured diverse of his majesty's subjects to be imprisoned against law , in remote islands , garrisons , and other places , thereby to prevent them from the benefit of the law , and to produce presidents for the imprisoning any other of his majesty's subjects in like manner . v. that he procured his majesty's customes to be farmed at under rates , knowing the same ; and great pretended debts to be paid by his majesty , to the payment of which , his majesty was not in strictness bound : and afterwards received great summs of money for procuring the same . vi. that he received great summs of money from the company of vintners , or some of them or their agents , for inhauncing the prizes of wines , and for freeing them from the payment of legal penalties which they had incurred . vii . that he hath in a short time gained to himself a greater estate than can be imagined to be gained lawfully in so short a time , and contrary to his oath , he hath procured several grants under the seal from his majesty , to himself and relations , of several of his majesty's lands , hereditaments and leases , to the disprofit of his majesty . viii . that he hath introduced an arbitrary government in his majesty's forreign plantations , and hath caused such as complained thereof before his majesty and councel , to be long imprisoned for so doing . ix . that he did reject and frustrate a proposal and vndertaking , approved by his majesty for the preservation of mevis , and st. christophers , and reducing the french plantations to his majesty's obedience after the commissions were drawn for that purpose , which was the occasion of our great losses and damage in those parts . x. that he held correspondence with cromwell and his complices , when he was in parts beyond the seas attending his majesty , and thereby adhered to the king's enemies . xi . that he advised and effected the sale of dunkirk to he french king , being part of his majesty's dominions ; together with the ammunitions , attillery , and all sorts of stores there , and for no greater value , than the said ammunitions , artillery , and stores were worth . xii . that the said earl did unduely cause hii majesty's letters patents , under the great seal of england , to one dr. crowther , to be alter'd , and the enrolement thereof to be unduly rased . xiii . that he hath in an arbitrary way examined and drawn into question divers of his majesty's subjects , concerning their lands , tenements , goods , chattells , and properties , determined thereof at the council table , and stopped proceedings at law by order of the councel-table , and threatned some that pleaded the statute of car. . xiv . that he hath caused quo warranto's to be issued out against most of the corporations of england , immediately after their charters were confirmed by act of parliament , to the intent he might require great summs of money of them for renewing their charters , which when they complyed withal , he caused the said quo warranto's to be discharged , and prosecution therein to cease . xv. that he procured the bills of settlement of ireland , and received great summs of money for the same in most corrupt and unlawful manner . xvi . that he hath deluded and betrayed his majesty and the nation in all forreign treaties and negotiations relating to the late war , and betrayed and discovered his majesty's secret councils to his enemies . xvii . that he was a principal author of that fatal council of dividing the fleet ; about june , . the clerk having read them a second time it was moved , that in regard the articles were many , they might be referr'd to the committee to see how far they were true , because fame is too slender a ground to bring a man upon the stage . sir fran. goodr. seconds it , because new matter was now added to what was formerly charged viva voce in the house . sir rob. how. suppose the earl of clarendom innocent , and yet charged and imprisoned ( which is the worst of the case ) he afterwards appears innocent and is discharged , receiving no more hurt than other subjects have done ; namely , * one great man lately . object . but why should you commit him ? answ. for proof , whether the articles be true or not : suppose men for self preservation will not venture to come , not knowing how they may trust themselves , and so you have no proof , he very guilty , and you not able to proceed ; is the inconveniency greater for an innocent person ( if he prove so ) to suffer a few days , than for you to loose your repuation for ever . if this man be not brought to his tryal , it may force him to fly to that which he councelled , that is , that we may never have parliament more . sir fra. goodr. i am not against proceeding , but unsatisfied to do it without witness , it being like swearing in verbo magistri . sir iohn holl. that the committee undertake to make good the charge , otherwise examine witnesses . mr. vaugh. you admit the accusation to be matter for a charge , if the committee find proof ; if you intend to make this a distinct case i leave it to you ; but if this be to settle the course of the proceedings of the house , i am against it ; for this is ordering a way of proceeding in the earl of clarendon's case , which shall not be a general rule . tho' i cannot say one of the articles to be true , yet i know them to be a full charge if made good , and you are prescribing a course neither proper , nor ever practised . a witness who speaks without outh is subject to damage ; not so upon oath , because the law compells him : and whereas it hath been said , if witnesses attest before the house of commons , what judges dare middle in 't ? i answer , such judges as meddled in the case of sir iohn elliot , &c. and the ship money . sir rich. temp. a grand jury is capable to present upon their own knowledge , and are sworn to keep the king's council and their own , and i believe there is not one article of the accusation but will be made good . sir rob. how. as i am sensible of the danger of publishing witnesses beforehand , so i would have every one satisfied ; therefore take the articles one by one , and according as you shall find what your members may say for the truth , you may be induced to proceed or not . sir tho. osb. the house ought to have something to induce their belief , which they have had from several members , and i know how some will be made good . sir tho. littl. what article members of the house do not offer you matter to induce you to believe , you may lay it aside ; therefore hear what shall be said and proceed accordingly . mr. iohn tr. you connot expect witnesses will appear before you , lords will not , nor can you expect commoners should ; for when you are up and gone , nothing can protect a commoner if this information be not judicial . at last the question was put whether to refer it to a committee . yeas , . noes , . . then the first article was read to see what would be said to induce the house to impeach . the first article read . sir rob. how. lord vaugh. heard from persons of quality , that it would be proved . the second article was read . lord st. ioh. persons of great quality have assured him to make it good , and if they perform not , he will acquaint the house who they are . the third article read . mr. ed. seym. sufficient persons will make it good , with this addition , when he received the money , he said , so long as the king is king , and i lord chancellor , the patent will stand . the fourth and fifth articles read . sir rich. temp. divers have undertaken to make them good , if they do not i will name them . about the receiving money of vintners . sir rob. c — r. that he knows who will prove it . about his getting a great estate so suddenly . mr. ed. seym. i suppose you need no proof the sun shines at noon-day . sir tho. litt. the matter of fact in the article is easily made out , for his place as chancellor could not be worth above or . per ann , about introducing an arbitrary government in the plantations . sir tho. litt. sir tho. osh. one farmer and others came from the barbadoes to complain of it , and lodg'd their petion in this house , but were imprison'd that they might not be heard . about frustrating proposals for preserving nevis , &c. sir char. wheel . my lord chancellor only opposed it . about holding correspondence with cromwel . mr. swinf . that is pardon'd by the act of indempnity . mr. vaugh. the committee were aware of that , but the defendant may plead it , and prove that he is not out-law'd . sir char. wheel . i want not clearly to prove it . sir rob. how. for such secret things as these , he ought to plead , notwithstanding the act of oblivion , that the world may know who are undiscern'd enemies . mr. hamd . it is not only an act of parliament , but oblivion ; and no man ought to be so much as accused for what was done before . mr. vaugh. if the pardon be general , the judges and you are to note it , but if it hath qualifications ( as that act hath ) they are not to note it ; for you must say there is no indictment or outlawry against him ( for such the act excepts ) or the article is to stand . then the act was read . mr. swinf . the clause for pardon is absolute , and any man accused , pleading it shall not be sued , nor his fault mentioned , and this is to offences and offenders ; and for those who betrayed the king beyond sea ( who are excepted ) they must be prosecuted within two years . object . you will say , he may plead that act. answ. by the same rule , any man who committed a fault , during the troubles , may be put to plead it for pardon . serj mayn . we profess that there shall be candour in our proceedings , do we therefore believe this great man is out-law'd ? if not , how shall we accuse him of what we believe not true . mr. vaugh. when i am satisfied of a thing i am not ashamed to own it ; i find now , having perused the act , that it is within the clause . the indempnity is general , and he is within it if not excepted , the exception reaches those who have held intelligence with the king's enemies , so as they be prosecuted within two years , this he is not , therefore is clear . so upon the debate , the article was expunged the paper without a vote . about the sale of dunkirk . sir tho. osb. a great lord told me that the earl of clarendon had made a bragain for dunkirk three quarters of a year before it was known . about sealing dr. crowther's patent . mr. street . the king gives the living to crowther , in the grant is a mistake of a county , crowther finds the mistake , and petitions the king to amend it , the king calls for the chancellor and seal , and in the king's presence it was amended and sealed . sir tho. littl. the crime seems as great as a chancellor could commit ; the king was to present by such a day , or not at all , the error was found after the day , so that the king ( by act of parliament ) had lost his right . the chancellor did alter the patent , and the record was fetch'd away by one of the chancellor's servants , and brought back rased , and altered , which might be done ( and in other cases is done ) where a word only hath been mistaken ; but that is in case of something perfectly in the king's power , and to save new sealing ; but here could be no new sealing the time being elapsed : it was to throw another man out of his freehold , and is a great crime . about drawing mens lands into question . mr. thom. i shall be able to make it out . about quo warranto's to corporations . sir tho. litt. this is so publick a thing , that it need not be proved . about the settlement of ireland . sir rob. how. i doubt not but it will be made out . about forreign treaties . sir tho. litt. this will appear by the treaties themselves , putting us in hopes of peace , and so hindering the fleets setting out . about miscarriage of the war. mr. thom. i want not persons to bring to bring to make it good . sir tho. litt. sir edward sprag desires money to give an intelligencer , and has it ; sprag brings the intelligencer to the king , the king commands him to meet him at the chancellors , there he met the king , and then order was given to divide the fleet. mr. marvel charged mr. seymour with saying in his accusation , that the king was insufficient for government , which is now omitted in the charge , and desires he may declare where he had it . mr. seym. the party that told me at first , differ'd something afterwards , therefore i rather withdrew it than to trouble you with uncertainties ; but a gentleman in the house can give you farther satisfaction in it . sir iohn den. a peer of the land heard the earl of clarendon say in a coach , that the king was an unactive person and indisposed for government : this will be made good . upon debate it appearing probable that these words were spoken before the act of oblivion , it passed over . about the customes . sir rich. temp. i have been informed that he had a share for under-letting the customes and l. bribe for getting pretended debts from the king. sir tho. osb. the earl of clarendon said , bid who would for the customes , none should have them but the old farmers . mr. p — n. having gone over the articles , we should know where and when the words were spoken . mr. seym , that will be a way to suppress the evidence , i hope you will impeach him at the lords bar , and in due time produce your witnesses . mr. p — n. you must resolve to impeach him of treason , or misdemeanour , and name it accordingly . sir. ed. walp . you ought first to give a title to your impeachment ; for if it be for treason , you will move for commitment ; if it be for impeachment in general , not . mr. colem . what is laid before you is only by hear-say , but no assurance that it will be made good ; only that if they who reported it do not make it good , you shall know who they are . in the earl of strafford's case ( the worst of presidents ) the house proceeded not till one spake in the house upon his own knowledge , and another engag'd his reputation to make it good . sir rob. atk. those who have given you inducement to proceed , do it at third hand , and tho' they may know the credit and impartiality of those that told them , yet you do not . sir tho. litt. a question should be put , whether this house hath sufficient inducement to impeach ; afterwards consider what the title shall be , then appoint a committee to frame articles . which question being put , was carryed in the affirmative . then adjourned . november , . the first article read . sir iohn goodr. treason ought to terminate in an overt-act , which designing is not , therefore pray read the statutes . thereupon sundry statutes were read . ed. . hen. . cap. . ed. . cap. . q. ma. . car. d . car. d . cap. . mr. stew. declared it to be transcendant misdemeanour but no treason . mr. vaugh. two questions will be considered , one , whether what 's charged in the article was treason in common-law before the ed. . that so we may understand the nature of treason ; the other , whether by any subsequent act it is made otherwise . mr. wall. the advice given to the king i look upon to be this . to establish a new government , to be govern'd by ianizaries instead of a parliament , to have a divan and a great minister of state , a vizier-bassau , a worse plot than that of the th of november ; there , if the lords and commons had been destroyed , there would have been succession , but here both had been destroyed for ever . then in order to the debate , consider how the law looks on it ; for tho' we may accuse on less evidence than she may judge , yet we must be cautious in naming the crime : what therefore doth the law call this before ed. ? then look whether the power of constructive treason be taken away since . sir fra. goodr. the matter concerns life , therefore we should be wary in the exercise of legislative power ; you are not tyed to rules , but you are now a step towards judicature ; the common-law is ius non scriptum , and tho' every treason includes felony , yet not every felony treason . ed. . there is a declaratory power , whether a thing be treason , or other felony , not whether it be treason , and could not be declared treason if not felony before . in cases capital at common-law they might declare it treason , but in cases not capital at common-law , they never exercised their declaratory power . among other things that statute declares false coin'd money to be treason , which is but felony at common-law ; afterwards money being imported , which was not according to the stamp , there was no punishment for it , but as a misdemeanour : therefore . hen. . provision is made against that practice , and it is made treason , but if the parliaments declaratory-power could have made it treason , what needed a statute on purpose ? so that i cannot think the article before you is treason , it not coming within the words of the statute . mr. vaugh. i shall speak to the first question , whether this article was treason at common-law ; and first remove what some have asserted , namely , that nothing is treason but what was felony before . ed. . where petty treason is spoken of , the wife killing the husband ' &c. these words follow , if hereafter it come into question whether there be another treason , it shall not be resolved by the judges , till the parliament determine it ; for in petty treason , if it be treason , it must be felony , because there is killing . then comes more , whether raising , &c. and it follows whether it be felony or trespass ; and the thing it self is more strange . none ever doubted , but that all treasons of . ed. . was treason before , and was so resolved q eliz. that by that act the king declares what should be treason ; namely , if any man vitiates the king's eldest daughter , &c. but by this doctrine if it were not treason , what was it ? either adultry or fornication , when it is only the eldest daughter , not the youngest . it hath been in all ages a reputation to persons who have been councellors to princes according to emergencies to give council to extricate out of danger . and therefore hard to tax a minister of state in a case which he acquaints his master with ; for there can be no treason but against the king himself . i will shew you what i mean. it is true this is a treason which cannot arise from misprision , because it was spoke to the king himself ; but as a minister of state he has liberty to give councel for the king's safety . if a person be able to inform his master what alliances are good for him , it his duty ; so what trades are profitable , what not , &c. so where men or money are wanting , to advise how to extricate is commendable ; but when it comes to this , that he breaks in upon the laws , invading the contract between the king and his subjects , it will be as if a man adviseth , that if the king wants money , he may set up high-way men to take it , and bring it to him , and so the skilfullest for breaking the law shall be esteemed the best councellor ; therefore , whoever thinks to serve his prince by breaking the laws , he is so far from a wise man , that he is the highest criminal . &c. then for the nature of the thing , the treasons declared ● ed. . were declared by the king's commission , and the treasons were of that nature which concern'd councel , &c. they were not like to be declared , and there is a passage in glanvil , called seductio domini regis , that is , deceiving the king to what is pernicious to him , and his people . now see the nature of this crime ; if a man councel his prince , and practice it such a way as shall render him prince of conscience , who hath broken his oath , and all this to his injury , so that he hath no assent to it . compare this with any treason of ed. . consider it : here is a person who gives the king advice , which at once must make his people see he hath broken all his faith to his kingdom ( and is not the counce of governing by an army such ? ) all the laws broken , to keep which the king has sworn , and this the king put upon tho' not inclin'd to , i assert not this upon the earl of clarendon , but upon the article , who doth this , councels the highest treason against the common-law , because others are so ; but if a man will pretend to give councel , wherein many shall have no benefit by the law , he breaks all parts , and therefore i think this councel was treason at common-law . mr. colem . the question is , whether it be in your power to declare this article treason by ed. . if he advised an army against the king's consent , it is against the statute ; but i suppose that the expression in the article was advice to the king in aid of his government . your enacting power is a kind of omnipotency , but in a declaratory power you can declare no more than is committed to you , and with safety to the subject you cannot declare this treason ; then what must be our rule in declaring i dare not say : for scarce any man can tell what was treason before ed. . was made to bring things to a certainty , and what was uncertain to them who made that law can be certain to us now . as the judges can declare no other treason , so in your declaratory power neither can you declare treason unless there be resemblance to some other like case : the advice said in the article to be given the king , cannot be within that statute , unless the councellour must run the hazard of his advice . mr. vaugh. the greatest declarations of treasons which ever were , equal not those rich. . in nottingham castle : the judges are called to deliver their opinions upon their faith , and they declare the acts to be treason , because felony before , and tho'some of them were hang'd for it , yet the parliament declared the same thing . serj. mayn . was , what is mentioned , treason by the common-law , tho' so said by the lords ? and what was so declared was repealed , h. . sir tho. litt. pray resolve whether it was treason by common-law ; and if so , when made so . some think not , because they find not the parliament declaring them treasons , as being so at common-law , and that that statute was made to bound them , but that was only to bound inferior courts , not themselves ; for the parliament makes not a new crime and then condemns it , but the crime was before , and the parliament declares it . sir ed. thur. hath the parliament declaratory power now ? yes , but it must be by king and parliament , so it was in the case of the genoua ambassador . the judges would not conclude the articles treason , nor would the lords alone ; and if you come to an equal declarative power with them , you must examine witnesses , or go by a bill . serj. charl. the question is , whether it be treason by the practice of england , the common-law is the custome of england , and the usuage is grounded on presidents , i know not one president where words or intentions were treason at common-law , for they are not treason where no act follows . sir rich. temp. the article is treason by common-law , and judges have recourse to glanvil , &c. who say , that giving advice to overthrow the realm is treason by common-law . serj. mayn . the question is whether he shall be impeached of treason upon this article ? if you go to treason at common-law before ed. . you fly out of sight , for the word seductio was soon after called seditio , seducing , but not said to what ; nor were those authors ever reputed of authority : it 's true they are sometimes quoted for ornament , but not argument , and not one case in one hundred of glanvil is law ; but when a case comes that is the sheet-anchor of life and estate , you should be wary ; for by wit and oratory that may be made treason which is not , and this which is a great crime , ought not because great , to be made treason . object . but it will be said , levying war against the law , is against the king , and here was an intent to alter the law. answ. true , yet a design no levy war is not treason within the statute , here is nothing of act , but words to that end ; if a councellor gives bad advice , it makes it not treason , but by a bill it may be made what you please . by that statute of ed. . are more treasons than are metnioned ; for it faith if any case happen , the judges shall stay till the king and parliament hath declared , so that there is a power , but the modus is the question , whether by impeachment , or bill ; you may the latter , not the former . it , was done , but you have repealed it , and have said none of which pretended crimes are treason ; and what was pretended against him ? * that he had traitorously endeavoured ( which is worse than design'd ) to alter the government , &c. now where is the difference ? here is advice to raise an army , there to use an army raised , and these you have called pretended crimes , and no treason , which is not comprechended by a law ; but to impeach as a treason , and yet the thing no treason is strange . in this house , other then by bill , you have no power ; you carry your impeachment to the lords , and they may give judgment without coming back to you ; declaring by bill is by way of judgment , but as an impeachment , is only an accusation : so that whatsoever the consequence is , the lords judge it , and it never comes back to you , and if you go by bill you make it treason , ex post sacto . mr. vang . concerning what you have declared about straffords , that this case is , if not less , equal to it , and you have declared that not one charge aganst him is treason is true thus far , when that act was made i repaired to it , because there were some things which should not have passed so , if there had not been something to secure such charges as these ; for there is no expression of any particular charge , but that the charge against the earl of strafford was not in the particular , treason , and in the ciose of the bill , it is said , that the whole proceeding shall be taken away , and if so , no man should speak against the particulars , but look on it as repealed . then this is said to be levying war , and its true , it must be actual , and so not within the charge . and the charge against spencer was for councelling the king , &c , and is called levying war against the kingdom , and the judgment against him was but banishment ; because the sentence was mitigated at the instance of the king. and for councel , tho' councel is given but in words , yet words are more than councel , and are an action , otherwise a councellour is sworn to nothing . but it may be thought i have not dealt ingenuously with the house , than which i abhor nothing more ; when the case of strafford was before the lords , i was of opinion the parliament had no declarative power left , because hen. . there was an abolishing of all declared treason , and that no treason , for the future , should be so , and then the treason about the genoua ambassadour was gone , and all declared treasons were gone hen. . and no statute hath recovered them , and if all actual treasons were taken away hen. . or if not then , ed. . then what doth the first of q. m. do , unless it take away all declaratory treason ? upon the whole , the question was whether to accuse of treason upon the first article . yeas , . noes , . . november , . the second article was read . mr. pr — n. let the act made by you about defending the king be read , because it limits prosecution to a time , to see if this be within time. mr. vaugh. in things wherein there is a publick defaming the king , it becomes no man here to defend the person accused , if the charge be not proved , let the party himself plead it ; you had that which induced you to impeach him , and have declared not to impeach of treason upon the first article : and if any man will add to the rest of the articles he may , but you ought to accuse . mr. sollicitor . none accuseth but for justice sake , and should be glad if the party accused prove himself innocent . there is a duty to the king , and to truth , and it is not fit that an article of this kind , brought into the house , should be laid by , upou pre tence that the time is clapsed ; for the crime is more than what is mentioned in the act made by you ; it is an offence at common-law , and if it be prosecuted by fine and imprisonment , no time is limited . the third and fourth articles read , and voted . mr. vaugh. your reading every article is needless , unless it be to see whether any one may be charged as treason , for if one may be objected against , so may all as to misdemeanours . fifth article read . sir iohn sh — w. the old farmers had not the customes till others said they would give no more , and they had no reason to thank the chancellour , because they gave more than others : and i declare upon my life i know no reward given him . sir tho. litt. it appears by the farmers confession , that they had it l. under , besides time of payment , which was l. more . mr. seym. your are at liberty to receive objections to the articles , but tho' others bad more , they were told they should not have it , and had about l. each given them to bid no more . sixth , seventh , eight and ninth articles read and voted . the tenth . mr. vaugh. this is an article of an high nature , dunkirk was then as much a part of his majesty's dominions as ireland , and if the sale of it be nothing , i know not what you would think of it if england should be sold , you lately debated whether on the first article he should be accused of treason , and found by the statute of ed. . he could not , tho' it was absolute treason at common-law , and it s reported abroad that i said that the right of the parliament in declaring treason is taken away , which i did not , for there are treasons not mentioned in that statute . therefore it provided that the judges should not upon any one treaso proceed to judge , untill declared before the king and parliament , and what is signisfied by it ? if we think before the king , lords , and commons , that is impossible , for how can the commons possibly declare before the king and lords , nor was that the case , but this , that there is the ultimate power of determining what the law is in a doubtful case . in writs of error let them pass from court to court , at last they come to the lords , ed. . if the judges cannot resolve what the law is , it is to be brought thither , that is , where it is questionable , but that is not in the house of commons , any more than in a writ of error : how than is the case here ? if a question be whether a thing is treason , or not , it shall be resolved where the law useth to resolve , that is , before the king in parliament , that is in the lords house . had the words of the act been these , there shall be no proceeding untill resolved by the king in the lords house , and suppose that clause taken away , that treason shall not be resolved , but suppose it shall not be declared otherwise , doth it follow it is taken away ? no , if you charge treason which is not within the statute , it is another thing , but i said not , there is no treason at common-law . mr. sollicitor , there was a great mischief in the declaring treason by parliaments ; for mortimer was made a traitor for incroaching upon royal power , which every man , who incroacheth upon any power , doth . hence the commons petition'd the king to explain what incroaching upon royal power was , and when no answer could be gotten to it , . ed. . they petion'd it might be declared certainly , and so treasons were enumerated , and if the judges be in doubt , it is provided & that the king and parliament shall first declare it . declaration in parliament , is a declaration before the king , lords , and commons . would our ancestors leave what is to be resolved treason to the lords , and themselves have no share in it ? and talbots being declared treason by the lords is said to be no treason by judge cook , because the commons had no hand in it , there is no treason in common-law , because there can be no treason where there is no way to judge it , which is not at common-law . mr. vaugh. when the law is made uncertain the lords must declare it , it appears there were treasons at common-law not mention'd ed. . it is one thing for a matter to be treason before , and the parliament to declare it ; another , for the parliament to make a thing treason which was not . sir will. lewis . i desire to be resolved whether dunkirk was annexed to england , because a bill to that end was carryed , but not passed . mr. waller . to shew that dunkirk was annexed to england , consider we were passing a bill for l . but when we were making a preamble to the bill , we were to seek for reasons for giving the money , seeing we had no war , some said to keep dunkirk , but were told we should take heed of looking upon it as annexed unto the crown ; but it was replyed , dunkirk , was look'd upon as a frontier town , and accordingly noted in the bill . therefore the sale of it treason . mr. coven . had it been part of the crown of england , what needed a bill to make it so ? mr. pr — n. it cannot be treason , because sold by the king's consent . mr. vaugh. if the king agreed to it , doth it follow , that he , who adviseth the king to a thing destructive to his kingdom and king , is not a traitor ? if any part of the king's dominions may be alienated , especially when a parliament is sitting , for they concurring , it may be alienated , by the same reason the king may alienate ireland or england too without the parliament ; for by what act of parliament doth the king hold ireland or england ? it is by acquisition ; i say not tangier , for that was part of his portion , and is his own : but dunkirk would have been the kingdoms if not thus disposed of , and tho' it might have been alienated with the parliament , it could no more without , than england or ireland . mr. ed. hart. the act of parliament for annexing was not this parliaments , but of the convention , and came in thus ; the king was pleased to tell me , that the spanish ambassadour might press him to part with it , which he had no mind to do ; therefore he would have a bill to annex it to the crown , which shews it was the king's will to have it annexed , accordingly this parliament passed it , and dunkirk might have been as useful as calice . at length this article was passed by , without determining whether treason or not . eleventh , twelfth , thirteenth and fourteenth articles read and voted . fifteenth article read , lord vaugh. i brought in this article his betraying the king's councels was to the french king during the war , and that in the secrecy of state , which was the occasion of the late mischiefs . sir tho. osb. that is direct adhering to the king's enemies , and so it is treason . mr. sollicit . this must be treason if you have any inducement to believe it . sir rob. how. i have heard it from an eye-witness who told it me , and added that we are neither to be trusted nor dealt with , who were so betrayed . serj. mayn . betraying the king's councel to his enemies is , doubtless , treason , corresponding is another thing , betraying must be without the king's knowledge , otherwise it is but delivering the king's words to his enemies ? sir iohn bramp . did this information come from a subject , or from one of the king's enemies ? sir rob. how. i would not have brought you information from one of the king's enemies , nor did i ever converse with them during the war. coll. birch . we cannot accuse of treason , except it be said , betraying the king's councel , or corresponding with his enemies . mr. vaugh. you have declared that you have had inducement to impeach , and ought to put the question , whether on this article he shall be impeached of treason . mr. sollicit . to betray the king's councel , taken generally , is not treason , for it may be to the king's friends , but to his enemies it is , if the article be so . lord vaugh. let it be put betraying his majesty's secret councels to his enemies during the war. then the question was put whether these new words delivered by the said lord vaugh. should be added . carryed in the affirmative . sir iohn holl. was this information given by an enemy or by a subject ? mr. vaugh. it must come from a forreigner , or you could not know it , may not the king have from a forreigner a discovery of treason against him ; the end of questioning it must be to know the man , for it might as well be asked whether his beard be red or black . sir tho. m — rs . the words are discovered not betrayed , and discovering may be with the king's consent . lord vaugh. add the word betraying , for so i meant it . serj. mayn . they who give the information say not they had it from more than one witness , which stat. ed. . requires , and only one of them names the earl of clarendon . mr. seym. this exception is proper to be made before the judges . then the question was put . whether to impeach of treason on this article . yeas , . noes , . . sir tho. litt. that an impeachment of treason and other crimes and misdemeanours be carryed up to the lords against him by mr. scym . serj. mayn . for misdemeanour he may have councel , not for treason : therefore so distinguish the charge , that he may have councel , resolved , that a charge be carryed up . resolved , that the speaker and the whole house carry it . novvember , . it being considered that if the speaker go up with the charge , some dispute might arise about carrying the mace and otherwise . it was resolved , that mr. seym. carry it . accordingly he went ; where at the bar of the lords house , the lord-keeper bridgman being come to the bar to meet him , he delivered himself to this purpose . my lords , the commons assembled in parliment , having , been informed of several traiterous practices , and other high crimes and misdemeanours commited by edward earl of clarendon a member of this honourable house , have commanded me to impeach him , and i do accordingly impeach him of high-treason and other crimes and misdemeanours in the name of the said commons , and of all the commons of england : and they have farther commanded me to desire your lordships to sequester him from parliament , and to commit him to safe custody , and in convenient time they will exhibit articles against him . november , . the lords sent down to desire a conference in the painted chamber . at which the earl of oxford delivered a paper in writing ( without any debate ) the contents whereof were to this effect . the lords have not committed the earl of clarendon , becase the accusation is only of treason in general , without charging any thing in particular . mr. garra . i had rather the house should loose the punishment of this man , ( tho' a great offender ) then that this house should loose its priviledge ; for if this house may at no time impeach a lord without giving in particular articles , it may fall out to be at a time ( as in the duke of b — s case ) where a great man by his interest with the king procured the dissolution of the parliament , and then the accusation falls . mr. vaugh. either you can justifie your proceedings , so as to satisfie the lords what you have done , or you cannot ; you must name a committee as well to consider what you are to do if your reasons satisfie not , as to draw those reasons . mr. sollicitor , without doubt this house was not mistaken in demanding that the party accused for treason should be committed , that is , that treason is worthy of commitment ; and you can but find presidents that persons have been accused of treason , and thereupon have been committed : but the case is this , treason is an offence , for which bail cannot be taken ; the lords tell you not they will , or will not commit : but it is true , persons have been committed for treason , and persons accused of treason judges may commit , or not . consider this law. let the crime be what it will , an imprisoning till the charge it given is but an imprisoning to security , not to punishment ; otherwise the law is not just , and if the judges of the kings-bench have a judgment of discretion , whether to commit or not ; can we wonder that the lords have not imprisoned , till they know the article , when they have judgments of discretion tho' they knew it ? you may find presidents , but it is not an argument it must always be so : but as the judges have a latitude much more then the lords , the impeachment from the commons of england is properly the king's suit , for there is no treason but against him , and if the judges may bail in that case , may not the lords . but you are not told he shall be balied , but they desire to know what his crime is , and then you shall know their answer , the resolution seems reasonable , having gone no farther , i cannot except against it . sir tho. litt. the long-parliament had some good presidents which we are not to cast away least we smart for it . resolved , to resume the debate to morrow . nov. . mr. vaugh. the lords do not say commitments should follow because treason is bailable by the kings-bench , its true , the kings-bench bails for treason , but how ? if persons be brought thither for treason directly there is no bail , but when a commitment is by the councel table for suspition of treason , then if the matter fall not be to what was expected they give notice to take bail , else the great article of the great charter , mamely that justice should not be delay'd nor denied , would be to no purpose ; and in such a case a man may be in prison for ever . on the other side , what is the case of committhing for treason ? when a person is committed by the councel-table , they say , thay do no more but by special command of the king , and that is the ground of his committing , and were not this so , what would follow ? intelligence would be given of a treason discovered , wherein many might be concerned , and if they who commit should commit with the treason , all the complices would escape , and therefore sometime they make it treason general . then for the case , before you have gone up with a charge of treason generally , which is to the lords a warrant sufficient for commitment , say they , we will know the particulars ; then will not the same inconveniencies follow , if other persons beconcerned , and so the danger of all exposed upon the nicety ? if a business comes before this house , which concerns others , and may prove treason , if we go to the lords ( for we have not jurisdiction except in case of our priviledges ) but yet are not ready to bring up particulars , and desire the lords to apprehend such persons , would it be reasonable for them to refuse it , there being no inconvenience like to follow the doing it , much the not doing it ? i say not to commit them , and we not prosecute , for that is delay of justice . qu. but why do the lords refuse ? ans. tho' i have great respect to the lords , yet to clear something in point of priviledge , the lords have the same priviledge with us in point of speech , their members , &c. as they are essential to pass laws ; but that great priviledge which they often assumo as peers , is as the king is there present in the highest court : how then will it fall out in respect of this priviledge ? if the king be there , there be many things which the lords as peers cannot pretend to ; for the king hath often sate there not only in passing bills , but in judgment . had this charge then come before the king there , it had been reason if the king should have said , i desire to know what this treason is , we must then have told it , because he , whom it concerned , required it , or if we desire commitment , he , who could release or pardon him , might say , let him be bailed . the lords indeed retain this priviledge , but it is in the king 's right , not as peers . now we have carryed a charge , if the lords bail him , i know not what would follow , for no example can be given of it , and i think they will not do it , if the king do not direct it . on the other side , i would be glad we might be no more troubled than is necessary , because others are listening what we do , and think there is nothing in the case : therefore i am not for delay , but satisfying others that what we have done is not barely for imprisoning the earl of clarendon , but for justice ; and if you go this way , give the lords the reasons why we sent the charge as we did , and yet keep up their priviledges , and declare so to them . but than we must go up with more than that head , on which we resolved to impeach of treason ; for your articles must be so formed as to make it a charge sit to be answer'd for time and place , and that article hath something of that which must be penned so as to make it more certain ; for the article goes but thus ; that there was discovery and betraying of the king's councels to his enemies , and if you leave it there , those who scruple doing any thing because particular treason is not mentioned , will say , you say he hath discovered and betrayed councels to enemies , but as we trust you not what is treason , but we will know it ; so we know not whom you mean by enemies ; for we may think them not so . therefore appoint a committee to form articles . mr. solicit . it is a great mistake to say , that the power of the kings-bench to take bail for treason is no other but what is asserted , as if the judges there had only power from magna charta . when a man is committed upon suspition of treason , and no prosecution follows , and the party bringing his habeas corpus , the bench bails him because he should not lie there eternally , it is not to be said the judges bail for treasons , seeing no crime is produced : for when a man hath been accused of treason for coining false money and brought to the bar , the judges have bailed him not because they ought , but from the discretionary power wherewith the law trusts them ; they may bail if they will , for no other judicature , but they , can bail in that case : for seeing imprisonment before tryal is only that the prisoner may be forth-comming , if they see there is no danger of escaping they may take bail , for he is a prisoner when bailed , and the bail is his keeper ; but there are few cases of this kind wherein they will bail ; they have a fundamental power to do it , placed in them to preserve the rights of the crown , and the lords will not think themselves less trusted with the rights of the crown then the kings-bench . yet tho' the lords may bail , they will not exercise their discretion when there is a probable truth in the impeachment ; shall we then refuse this intimation from the lords ? who saying , because they have not a particular article of treason do not secure , seem to imply , that if they had they would , tho' they might refuse . the right of bailing comes not from an imaginary apprehension of the king 's sitting there , tho some kings have sate there in judicature , but from their inherent authority of being trusted with the right of the crown : let us do then what becomes us , and not let the impeachment miscarry upon a misunderstanding but draw up the article . but how is it possible to draw it as an article which you expect he should be imprisoned upon ? for your impeachment is in the nature of an indictment , and must contain so much of certainty as to put him to plead , that so he may not demur . how may it then be circumstantiated , so as that he may put to plead ? if you do it according to ed , . ( for discovering the thing 's secrets to his enemies is within that statute . ) the first part of the article is not pleadable ; for we must shew how he adhered to the king's enemies , and wemust add what the councel was that he betrayed , else he will deny to plead , and say , i can avoid it : therefore consider what kind of certainty this article must have to make him plead , for the other articles , it s enough to say them without proving time or place , if the facts were after the act of oblivion ; but in treason , the matter must appear in the indictment , for he hath liberty not only to plead not guilty , but to avoid it : therefore prepare the article accordingly . mr. vaugh. what is moved is to put you upon an impossible business , for an article presented from the parliament needs not that certainty , as if it were to be tryed at the kings-bench . sir tho. litt. it is not for the honour of this house to recede so easily from such a priviledge , for , besides the earl of straffords case , we have express presidents for , but none against us . we have heard that we must have no more impeachments , because they are dangerous and tend to rebellion . consider the arch-bishop of canterbury's case , finch , ratcliff , and others in the long parliament , and we should not so easily part with them . william delapool being commonly reported to be no true man , ( which is a less charge than treason ) desired he might acquit himself , and the lords required no special matter before they imprison'd him , and afterward he was accused more specially . sir rob. atk. in the case of anselm arch-bishop of cant. the commons accused him but the lords did not commit him , and gave no other reason for it , but that he was a great man , and yet afterwards he was condemned as a traitor , tho' the king reduced his punishment only to be banishment . tho' a priviledge is much spoken of , yet i shall never be fond of any priviledge which shall intrench upon my liberty as a subject . mr. vaugh. i hear it objected , that as you charge a lord generally , so may the lords a commoner , but that cannot be ; for the lords cannot cause a commoner to be committed tho' for treason , without your consent : therefore put a question , whether a committee shall be named to draw up reasons to justifie what you have done . resolved , that the question shall be put . resolved , that a committee shall draw reasons . november , . the committee brought in their reasons . first , what can or ought to be done by either house of parliament is best known by the customes and proceeding of parliament in former times ; and it doth appear by example , that by the course of parliaments the lords have committed such persons , as have been generally charged by the house commons for high treason to safe custody , tho' the particular treason hath not been specified at the time of such charge second . that a commitment for high treason in general , is a legal commitment , and if the party so committed bring his habeas corpus , and the cause of his commitment thereupon be returned for high treason generally , he may lawfully be remanded to prison by the judges upon that return . third . if before securing the person the special matter of the treason should be alledged , it would be a ready course that all complices in the treason might make their escape , or quicken the execution of the treason intended , to secure themselves the better there . fourth . if the house of peers should require the particular treason to be assigned before the party charged be secured , they leave the common uncertain and doubtful ( and that from time to time ) how particular they must make their charge to their lordships satisfaction , before the offenders be put under any restraint . fifth , the commons conceive , that if they should desire the lords to secure a stranger , or native commoner , upon suspition of treason which the commons had of him , and which was by them under examination to be evidenced to their lordship in due time ; their lordships in justice for the safety of the king and people would secure such person or persons , upon the desire of the commons , and in such case there would be no difference between a lord and a commoner so desired to be secured . sixth , the proceedings of inferior courts , between the king and the subject , or subject and subject , and the discretion of judges in such courts is bounded and limited by the discretion of the parliament which trust them ; and 't is not left to the discretion of the judges in ordinary jurisdiction to give the king , or take from him , inconvenient power for the subject , nor to dispence the law partially between subject and subject for malice or affection ; but the discretion of the parliament , which is the whole publick , comprehending the king , lords and commons ( for the kings presence is supposed to be in the lords house ) is , and ought to be unconsin'd for the safety and preservation of the whole , which is it self . it cannot be malicious to a part of it self , nor affect more power than already it hath , which is absolute over it self and part , and may therefore do for preservation of it self whatsoever is not repugnant to natural justice . mr. prynn i like not the first reason , because it cannot be called a custom where only one parliament hath done it . mr. swinf . the great strength lies upon this first reason , and is like to be a president ; for exact presidents i find none , except that of michael delapool , and in the long parliament : but consider the reason why there was no express president before , and what was the custom of parliaments before . the parliament was wont to proceed formerly by bill , and thus that proceeding makes against the lords now , and for committing the party accused ; for then the proceedings upon treason were by common-law , and because the judges could not proceed , therefore the paliment went by bill , and it cannot be supposed that the parties were at liberty all that while . second , third , fourth and fifth reasons voted , sixth read. mr. solicit . i am against this reason , not as a reason , but unnecessary ; for if the former reasons satisfie not , this will not , because it supposeth things not in question . our debate must at last end in this question , betwixt priviledge of parliament and former proceedings ; and there being no priviledge in case of treason , why should not former proceedings sway ? except we call that treason which is not , for otherwise no priviledge will help . therefore add this to your reason , that there is no priviledge for treason , and the lords ought not to think that the commons will call that treason which is not , or if they do , the lords may by a speedy trial determine it . resolved , that a conference be desired with the lords , and the reasons carryed up . november , . the lords sent down to desire a conference about the subject matter of the last conference . but the commons doubting that if they should consent to it , the lords might afterwards refuse a free conference , because the business in dispute concerns judicature , which belongs to the lords , and so the impeachment generally falls . resolved , to send an answer by messengers of their own , and accordingly did , with order to acquaint the lords how far they had proceeded , and they expected they should rather haue desired a free conference . november , . the debate about the freedom of speech in parliament was resumed . and the report read of proceedings abut sir iohn elliot , mr. holles , &c. car. . mr. solic . if you are satisfied that the judgment passed upon them was illegal , two ways you have to be safe ; by taking notice of that judgment , giving your opinion upon it , and carrying it up to the lords , that judgment will be utterly damned ; else you may proceed by act , but consider then the consequence : for if you go by act , you bound the liberty of speech , unless in penning it you prevent it , but an unknown limitation is better than bounding , for an act it self is subject to exposition , but your vote , and the lords concurrence is not . mr. vaugh. it is not safe for you to circumscribe priviledges , therefore that must be done which may take away what destroys them . the laws and rights of this kingdom are rights by common-law , or act of parliament ; what is an act of parliament may be repealed by parliament , what is common-law may be altered by parliament , and whatever is both , may be altered by a new law ; and how is it possible to do one , or the other without liberty to speak about it ? and how can there be any inconvenience about freedom of speech , about any thing which cannot be a law without passing king , lords , and commons . then it being moved to put the question for confirming that report . and it being replyed that some passages in that business , viz. about keeping the speaker in the chair were not warrantable , and so not to be joined in the question with the rest . mr. vaugh. that business which is so much talked of , and condemned , i shall state to you . the house is to adjourn it self , tho' sometimes the king advised them to adjourn themselves ( as then he did ) but the adjournment is always made by a question , and without it the speaker cannot leave the chair . the speaker acquainting the house then with the king's message , sir iohn elliot stood up to speak , but the speaker would not hear him , but was going to leave the chair , whereupon some said , if you go out without a question the parliament is dissolved , upon which he was leaving the chair ; some kept him , and told him , if this be a house , you as speaker have no place in it but the chair , and this was all the irregularity in that business so much talk'd of . resolved . that the iudgment given against sir john elliot , &c. car. was an illegal iudgment , and against the freedom and priviledge of parliaments . the lords sent for a present conference , after which report was made that the lords had voted , the commons denying them a conference lately was contrary to the course of parliamentary proceedings , and gave reasons why it was not yet time for a free conference . novvember , . after debate whereof , it was resolved to grant them that the commons agreed to the conference formerly desired . at which the lords declared that they had considered of the presidents and reasons formerly sent them by the commons , but were not satisfied to secure the earl of clarendon , or to sequester him from parliament untill some special treason be assigned . novem. ● . the commons sent to the lords to desire a free conference upon the matter of the last conference . to which the lords concurring , mr. vaugh. sir rob. how. sir tho. litt. and others were appointed to manage it , who went up immediately to that end . mr. vaugh. made report of the conference with the lords yesterday to the purpose following . the lords told us , that no president can be against the law. we answer'd . if that can be made good , we shall press presidents no more , but what they most stood upon was the petition of right , where 't is provided that none shall be committed without special cause , whereby the party may answer according to the law , thence they infer that our proceedings are against law ; because a general charge is against the petition of right . commons . the case of the petition of right , rightly stated , will clear this , which was this : some persons were committed by no other warrant , but the king 's special command , they bring their habeas corpus to the kings-bench to know the cause : this cause was returned by the judges , that they could not bail a man , when so committed , because they knew not the cause , nor had any way to bring him to his tryal . then the petition of right provides that the cause should be returned , whereby the crime might appear , and that before and after the petition of right to this day , if upon bringing a habeas corpus , it be returned that the party is imprisoned for treason , the judges ought to remand , unless there be some special cause to make them take bail. so that the petition of right was against them , for they say , a man ought not to be imprisoned upon a general charge , because 't is against the petition of right : we say it is not against the petition of right , because the judge may remand the party , if there be no special cause . then the lords said , that the reason why the iudges remanded in that case was , because the party committed knew it was for treason therefore they re-committed . we owned it , because it was the rule for the judges to proceed by , but that was no rule for proceedings of parliament , for as a magistrate commits for treason , and is supposed to be acquainted with it ; so also is he with the probability upon the proof : but the lords insist not now upon that , but specifie treason , and if the course of parliaments so much varied in such cases , that was no concluding proof why they should have special treason . and for the other part , that upon the return , there should be a cause returned , that so the party might answer ; for when a return is made , if the cause be such as that the party ought not to be imprisoned , the judges free him , otherwise they leave him to come to his tryal . then to the president about the earl of strafford , they replyed , that it was made in bad times . and we answered , that as good laws were made before , in , and after that time as any other ; and if the lords then might make such laws , we could not see , why it should be a good time to make laws , and no good time to administer to persons the laws already made . farther , to their objection , that in the time whence those presidents were brought , there was a face of war. we answered , that could not alter the case , for the law calls no time a time of war , whilst the courts of justice have freedom , as they had when strafford , finch , canterbury and ratcliff were impeached , and it was strange that in the parliament-house there should be such a consternation as to make their proceedings invalid , when in other courts there were none : besides , in holland of many years there was a constant scene for war , and can we imagine that there was not justice done at that time . then they pressed presidents against ours , one ed , . against the spencers , where a great man moved the king to commit one of them , and the king answered , it could not be unless cause was shewed . we replyed , this was a president like that , a man was committed , because he was committed , for there was no allegation of treason . second president was hen. . against lord stanhope , the commons moved the king to imprison him , and the king answered he would consider of it . we answered , that was no denyal , but a thing usual with the king , and that motion was to the king himself , which differs from this case , for that was not alledged to be treason : besides , had it been treason , it was against the king himself , and being an offence against himself , he might ( if he would ) not imprison , because he may discharge a man , or pardon him , tho' for treason ; but this case is not so , because the lords justice is but ministred to the king. r. arundell arch-bishop of canterbury , who as they said was impeached of treason , but not committed . answer . the case was this , there was a commission issued out by ric. . that that bishop and others should regulate what was amiss by evil government , and the king was offended at the granting of it , and at nottingham sent for the judges , and charged them upon their allegiance to give true answer to what questions he should ask them , and the first question was , whether that commission so granted , was not inva ding his prerogative ? they answered , yes , then he asked how they ought to be punished who procured it ? they answered , as traitors . in the the bishop is charged by the commons , and the treason alledged is , that he had procured himself to be put into the commission . this being the case , we said , that if a fact be called treason , which afterwards appears to be none , there could be no commitment , for if a man call another mans coming into his ground treason , it falls of it self ; therefore the bishop was not committed . the lords said farther , that all those articles were declared to be treason , which before could not possibly be treason to commit a man , because the nature of them must be treason at common-law , and till these treasons were declared , which was not till ed. . they were not treason so as to imprison , or try any man for them . we reply'd , all that parliament was repealed , yet the president was the more authentic . but i think that lord ( it was the earl of b — ● ) understood not what he said , at least i did not . then about the earl of strafford's president , the lords said , that the very impeachment was taken away by the act of this parliament , because the impeachment is recited in it . namely , whereas the earl of strafford was impeached &c. but every clause in that act of attainder is taken away now , therefore the impeachment ; and you cannot make use of any part of it . we replyed , it 's true , the act of attainder is taken away , but the very act of repeal doth recite that very clause ( whereas thomas earl of strafford was impeached &c. ) and the act cannot take away any thing which strengthens its own supposition . then the lords said , that they should be willing to comply with the commons , but that they must be tender of their own judicial proceedings . commons . it s true they ought , and we supposed that the lords might be jealous that we should intrench on their power , but the commons were so far from that , that they thought the judicial power better lodg'd with them then in the commons themselves could be ; but we would open the objection . their lordships being the judges in this case might think , that for the commons to take upon them to know what was treason , would be an assuming to themselves what was only proper to the lords , and that it was so now in charging the earl of clarendon generally . lords . the objection is right . commons . for our knowing treason , we have many among us , who are justices of peace , trusted by law to know and commit , ( and if the parliament be not sitting ) even to commit a peer himself for treason , and the knowing what is treason is so far from being improper to the house of commons , that every man in the nation is bound to know it ; for was it ever known , that ignorance of the law could ever excuse a man from breaking the law ? laws are made to be known by subjects , especially those which concern the king ; and unless they could find a reason , why the parliment embodyed should be more ignorant than particular persons , the present case must be clear . that the jealousie of the lords arose from a fallacy , thus , the lords have judicial power concerning treason , and mnst of necessity know in ; the common have no judicial power over it , therefore cannot know it ; that is , because the commons know what law is , therefore they have judicial power over law. to this was not any thing replyed . farther , we said that because they insisted upon to specifie treason , because by committing upon a general , they might wrong the party by committing him without cause , and because they themselves were not informed in their consciences what they did : they would do well to consider the many inconveniencies which might follow , if the charge of treason was not general , but particular ; and suppose it was special , their lordships would know no more by it . for suppose a man impeached for counterfeiting the great seal , which is express treason , and he may be impeached for it , yet neither their lordships nor the party could have any advantage by that specification , because there might be as many questions what is counterfeiting the great seal , or what is treason . for instance . one leak a clerk in chancery , intending to forge a patent , puts together two pieces of parchment , and had fitted them , and put them together with mouth-glew , that they appear'd as one : then a grant was written upon the outmost , and a seal affix'd , so that the great seal is put to a true thing , then he cuts off the edges of the parchment , so as to sever them , takes off the written one , and leaves the seal on the blank , then forgeth the grant and makes use of it . this was questioned before the judges , whether 't was treason or not , that is , whether counterfeiting the great seal or not ? if it were , it was treason , otherwise not . they resolved , it was not counterfeiting the great seal , and so not , but misprison . and if it had been treason , they resolved , that an indictment had been enough to impeach him . then suppose you have such an impeachment before you for counterfeiting the great seal , you have special treason , and imprison him ; but when it is brought to question , it appears not to be treason , therefore he is wrong imprisoned : and if your lordships will examine what knowledg you have of this fact , you have no more then if it had been a general treason . lords . there is a case put there , as we are content to take a special treason , but expect not the proof as there it was . commons . if it were a case put , so is your lordships reply , for it was put ex concesso , because you agreed that if the treason was special , the party was to be committed , and this case was to show their lordships , they were in no better case then , than if the treason were general . but the lords still pressing that the impeachment it self of the earl of strafford , was repeal'd in the act about him . commons . we reply'd one part of the act ought to be severed from the other , and that which is without exception shall stand , tho' the other be taken away : for , suppose a man prosecutes in a court of justice , for what he apprehends to be his right , and yet the cause goes against him , and he hath no effect of his suit , afterward the party ( being an evil minded man , and thinking to reach his ends ) forgeth a deed , or suborns witnesses , and then begins a suit in some other court , and by those ways attains his ends. then a bill comes before this parliament to reverse the judgment , reciting that such a person hath been a suborner of witnesses , &c. so , and so , and therefore the judgment is made void ; certainly tho' this person is named to be an evil minded person , yet this lays no blemish on his first proceedings . so that it appears by the act , that the proceedings against the earl of strafford were legal at first , if those afterwards , when the times became tumultuous , were not , it is not to be applyed to what was well done and legal : then we told them that we had pressed them with four presidents , and to three of them nothing was replyed . lords . they answered the reason why my lord finch was committed , was because of his flight . commons . he was fled before the impeachment , but it was ordered , that he should be committed when found . then we told them , that we must report to them , that be the treason what it would , we could not go to the lords to have it punished without that disadvantage , which the publishing the treason before-hand would expose us to by making of witnesses , escaping of parties , and the like ; then bad them consider , whether if we should lay before them a treason in every thing circumstanced as gun-powder treason , they would not imprison the party till the whole matter was opened . lords . they answered to hear that case put , for in matter of state , other courses are to be taken , and they could see no inconveniency in publishing that to the lords , which must be published before in the house of commons . commons . the commons may proceed with what secresie or openness they please , and the lords are not to take notice of their proceedings , whether open or secret . farther , that by a matter of state must be understood , when a parliament is not sitting , and we know not whether to resort , but when a parliament is particularly called to prevent the mischiefs threatning the kingdom , if that be not capable of remedying , no other council could , or we are not bound to resort to that , we are excluded ftom that to which we ought to resort . lords . that the lords had us take heed of the liberty of the subjects , to which they are now fain to have regard , bidding us consider the bishop of canterbury's long imprisonment , without knowing the cause , and they must satisfie their consciences , lest they should commit for treason , and it not prov'd so . commons . it appears not that the bishop of canterbury should have lain less time , had the impeachment been special ; and for the liberty of the subject , we know not how a subject should have more liberty by special matter than general ; special being but adding a formal title , and the subject goes to prison , as well for the one as the other . for their consciences . suppose a person accused generally , they are then to know whether it be treason , and is not it as much that they commit an innocent person so ? as if the matter was special . december , . the lords sent down a message to the commons by two judges , to this effect , that upon the report made to them of the last free conference , they are not satisfyed to commit or sequester from parliament the earl of clarendon without the particular treason be mentioned or assign'd ; who being withdrrwn . lord torring . ( general m — cks son ) moved not to part with any priviledges of the commons of england , but adhere to the general impeachment . sir rob. how. the matter before us , is of as great concernment as ever came before us ; if there should be malice supposed in a nation against it self , it might be exercised by giving a particular charge , as well as a general , many of the lords are convinced by the reasons we gave , and concur , thinking our presidents good , and have entred their protestation in the lords house , asserting the rights of the commons of england to impeach generally ; so that ( excepting the spiritual lords ) i think i may say the major part of the lords are for us ; and should we give up this , we may be wrested out of all right , and the commons have no way to proceed to an impeachment , but some men to be so great , as not to be fairly reach'd . therefore adhere . mr. wall. the lords are a noble estate , but whatever the matter is , they have of late some advice given them , which makes them proceed as they never did yet , for scarce any thing happens betwixt us , but they incroach upon us . the militia is now as burthensome to the fifty pound man in the country , almost as all other taxes , and the lords have gotten this advantage on us , that they touch not the burthen of it with their finger : so in time of the plague , the commons must be shut up , but not they , insomuch that a good act provided to that purpose passed not ; we impeach'd the lord mordant , and could not bring him to the bar , ( tho' formerly i have known an earl and a lord brought thither ) you desired a free conference about it , but could not obtain one to this day . rome was at first modest , and only medled with spirituals , but afterwards concerned themselves so much with other matters , that every thing almost was made to be in ordine ad spiritualia , and many kingdoms thereupon break from them . the lords now insist upon one thing , because they say 't is in order to their judicature , perhaps hereafter they will tell us we must come to them on our knees , because it is in order to their judgment . consider therefore whether there be any hope of giving them satisfaction ; then , whether you will adhere , and what you will do afterwards ; for the present my motion is to adhere . mr. vaugh. it is truly said , the business before you seems to be as great as hath been in parliament , many of the consequences being invisible ; therefore before you resolve what to do take the whole matter before you . the difference between the lords and us , is upon a general impeachment of treason ; the lords after a free conference say , they will not commit unless special treason be mentioned or assign'd , those whom you employed to manage the conference were very unwilling to differ with them , but it seems it hath produced nothing , and i have nothing to make me believe , but that the reason is , that the lords were resolved ( say what we would ) not to be satisfied ; for i know nothing which they offer'd , but it was fully answer'd , nor any thing left undone to satisfie them if they would have been satisfied ; what i have to say now is to clear something which the lords may make much sound of . when we urged presidents , and made them our principal reason , we told them , the way to decide what was in difference betwixt the houses , is , the usuage of parliaments ; but to our presidents we received no full answer . then the lords used this reason , namely , that they cared not for presidents , because it was against the express law of the land. i answer'd them we would join with them , if they could shew law against it , and expected what they would answer , but heard nothing : much discourse there was , without application , of the great charter , and of the statute of ed. . but not applyed ; so that i thought law in a lords mouth , was like a sword in a ladies hand , the sword might be there , but when it comes to cut , itwould be awkward and useless . but i hear since , that their meaning was this , ( which must be cleared by mentioning some laws ) that by magna charta , it is provided , that no man shall be taken or imprisoned , or condemned but by the law ; and thence they infer , that no man may be imprisoned , but it must be by the peers , or by the law of the land. again , . ed. . no woman shall be attached upon accusation , or be adjudged of life or limb , but according to the law. . ed. . no man shall be taken by a petition to the king or his council , unless by indictment of lawful people , or by process of writ at common-law , and ( say they ) this case is to none of these . ed. . no man shall be imprisoned without due process according to the old law of the land : but this case being neither by presentment nor indictment , the lords would not stand upon our presidents , but relied on this , as if it were enough in bar of all our presidents . therefore to open this , and the danger of the consequence , there are in the land many different laws , and proceedings in these laws , and imprisonment upon them ; and yet not one of them by presentment , indictment , or tryal by peers , tho the lords thought this was the law and there was no other . . it is known that the crown-law , or prerogative , is distinct law from that between party and party . . there is the law and custom of parliament , called a law , ab omnibus quaerenda , a multis ignorata , & a paucis cognita . . then the cannon-law , ( and it is much the bishops forgot that ) and there is nothing in that law , more than standing in a white sheet , which proceeds not by indictment or presentment , yet there is imprisonment even in that law. . there is the law of admiralty , and the articles of cleron , where there is proceedings of another nature , and by imprisonment . . the law of merchants , or of the staple . . the law of arms , where is imprisonment and death , and yet different proceedings from the common-law in the great charter : now no man thinks that all those courses of proceedings are taken away by the common-law , and it is gross ignorance to think it . . the law of the forrest , which is most different : so that to urge magna charta to this purpose , as if all proceedings in those cases must be according to the common-law , is absurd . then there are divers writs in the register . one , when a man hath received the king's money to serve him , and went not , then there is a writ to arrest him upon a certificate from the captain under whom he was to serve . then the ordinary writ , which belongs to the law ecclesiastic , de excommunicato capiendo . another , de apostata capiendo , to recover a regular run-away from his convent . another , called ne exeat regno , to imprison a man , who will not give security not to go out of the kingdom , and this is not traversable any where , because it suggests that he will machinat somewhat hurtful to the kingdom , and upon that suggestion he is imprisoned . another , when a man hath a leprosie . another , to burn hereticks , which concern'd the bishops also , if they had pleas'd to think of it . these proceedings are no way agreeable to those mentioned in the common-law then consider how this resolution of the lords strikes at the law of parliaments . . it is certain that all imprisonment by parliament is not by presentment , indictment , &c. so that by this means that power is taken away . . contempt against parliamentary authority , whosoever he is to appear before them , and disobeys them , they may imprison him in the tower , and yet it is not against magna charta . whither therefore tends this ? the conclusion must be , that no impeachment by the commons must go on , unless it be by presentment , and so there is an end of all that for which the parliament is principally called , unless we are part of those contemptible ones , who are only fit to give money ; that may be reserved for us , but nothing else ; tho' ed. . saith , for redress of grievances in the kingdom a parliament shall be called every year . i would know which way we should redress abuses , if we are so far from remedying in parliament , that we must be shut out to the common courses in other courts ? obj. the lords may say , if you find the statutes broken , and short , you shall have new. answ. and when these new ones are broken , then we shall have a remedy , so rise up remedy , and go to the remedy , ad infinitum , for there is no more reason to think that a second law shall be maintained more than the first , and what way a mischief shall be redressed , other than by parliament , i know not . so that by this resolution of the lords , and denying to commit upon this ground ( for they shew'd no other ) every thing for which a parliament is useful is denyed us . after all this come to the very case . if a treason be committed , and the fame is that a. b. is guilty of it , it is lawful to apprehend him for it . if hue and cry pursue a man , tho' he be not of evil fame , yet he may lawfully be imprisoned : if it proves false , he hath his remedy ; but that obstructs not the law to bring him to tryal : any watch-man may arrest a night-walker , and hath a warrant in law for it , and this is as good process in law , as any original writ . and after all this , consider with what kind of colour , when there are weighty reasons why we should not mention special treason , and that mentioning it generally , answers the petition of right , the whole commons of england ( who are in no degree represented by the lords , they only represent their own persons ) should be denied the securing a person impeached unless a particular charge be given how prejudicial so ever to the kingdom . another thing , there is no right which a man hath in this land , or any part of the world , but his right is such , that if it be kept from him , he hath a means to come to it , otherways it is damnum sine injuria ; for where the law gives no remedy , there is but a supposition of right : by the same measure it will follow , that there is no civil wrong can be done to any man , but the law provides a remedy if that wrong be done ; and if by the law there is no remedy , it is no wrong , consider then this case . there are in this kingdom in the civil state of it , three estates , which the king hath then in making laws : there are three estates , whereof the king is principal ; sometimes they are mentioned as the king 's three estates , and he none of them : the estates in general are , the commons of the kingdom , ( who are perfectly represented in this house ) the lords another , and the king another , and these are such , that there is no petitory action , nor the laws directed to any one of them , but the laws you make are to distribute justice in other courts . for instance , if all the commons of england ( who are one of the estates ) should accuse one of themselves , the party can have no wrong , because the parliament can have no action brought against them , nor can they be supposed to do any thing for malice . it is the same between the body of the lords and commons ; and there is no law either to vindicate the one or the other ; but they stand as if there were no communicable law betwixt them ; but the measure between them is that which is good for the whole ; for they are the makers of laws for others , but no laws can be fancied to reach the whole of the commons , or of the lords . so that 't is easily to be seen , how it hath been put upon us ; so that now we are in such a case , we know not to what end we shall proceed upon this or any other impeachment ; for by this judicial power , you shall be excluded from any proceedings by laws of parliaments , and so you take away the whole right of the kingdom . quest. but now what shall you do ? ans. i see many inconveniencies which may happen both ways , but i see so many this way , that if any man gave such councel as is charged upon the earl of clarendon , it is not so dangerous as the case before you ; for the inconveniencies attending that councel would quickly shew it self by the misery following : but this is a small thing begun with , which , like a canker , may eat till it be uncurable , and that is as absolutely justifiable as this . and now i have said this , i am perplexed what to say more , for all can bear me witness , what respect i have endeavoured to preserve to the house of peers , but i am so sensible of this , that tho' i cannot forget my respect to them , yet i must lament the condition into which they have brought themselves first , and us next , for they cannot think to avoid it . the house of peers is but a new stile , called so , as iurors are called peers , from the word par ; for every commoner hath his peers as lords have ; and the whole stile formerly was arch-bishops , bishops , dukes , &c. but pares regni is a new stile . it is called the vpper house , and is to be look't upon with reverence . the lords have a jurisdiction , but in this case , i must be plain , their granted jurisdiction ariseth from the house of common , if you impeach not there your judicial power will be very little . if a lord be to be tried for treason , the lords are but his jurors ; and tho' they try him upon honour , not upon oath , yet they are no more his tryers , than as out of parliament : the judge of treason in the lords house , is constituted by the king , as a lord high-steward , and there is no other judge , therefore i know not the judicature they speak so much of . there is another for writs of error , which are there determined , but the jurisdiction of that is very little , for the inconveniency of the lords determining what could not be determined in other courts , is so found out eliz. they are to be brought first into the exchequer chamber . there is another way when persons carry complaints to the lords , which is a question , for commoners ought not to carry complaints there , except in some cases from chancery ; therefore this matter of jurisdiction , which they talk of , is not such a wonderful thing as they would make it . therefore whatever we shall do after it , your rights being so much concerned that you know not where the stay will be , it is necessary that you make a committee to draw up a protestation to be made by this house concerning this matter , the invasion of your right in it , and the danger to the kingdom by it . mr. colem . the lords say , that committing upon a general impeachment is against law , and i think it will appear so ; i deny not , but a mittimus without special cause is legal , and grounded upon the petition of right , the reason of which is to secure men against commitment by a special warrant , and a judge ought not to discharge where treason is alledged , but in this case it is different ; the judges cannot discharge a man committed after examination , but the lords ought not to commit a man , except there be particular treason . if i come before a justice of peace , and say , i accuse this man of treason , will any wise man commit him ? he makes his warrant indeed , but he that accuseth must go farther and make it more particular , and the special matter must appear before he commits , and this is the present case . the common-law is , that no man ought to be committed without particular cause ; because no man can commit in capital matters , without taking examination before hand , otherwise no man can justifie a commitment : therefore i am not satisfied that the lords had not reason to deny . the commons are in the nature of a grand-iury to present , but the lords are the iudges ; commitment is not the judgment but in order to it , and the lords have a discretionary power in the case : the lords say not that they will not commit , but that they are not satisfied to do it without special matter , therefore we ought to send it up . sir rob. how. i have attended the reasons given against making a protestation , and whatever is said , is but levelling a house of commons with every private accuser ; a justice of peace ( it is said ) must have evidence before he commit , and this house has had inducements to impeach , and may not a house of commons judge what is treason as well as justice of peace ? the inconveniencies and dangers laid before you , if you proceed , are nothing in comparison of those on the other side . had the lords imprisoned , they had before this had the particular charge , and the protestation is not to stop it , but to make way for it some other way ; for it will resolve into a remonstrance , by which you may give the nation an account of your proceedings to come to a tryal of this business . mr. vaugh. by the protestation spoken of , is meant to preserve the rights of this house upon the whole matter , and to give the reasons of your proceëdings . sir tho. m — rs . what is said , not being explained ; i know not what is meant by the protestation ; if it be but to enter it into our book , i am not against it , if it be an appeal to the nation , pray consider what you do . mr. vaugh. this way of protestation differs from entring in our books , but the best way is to draw it up , and to bring it to you , and then any man may take exceptions against it ; for the meaning is , that this house claims its rights . mr. garaw . first make your protestation , and then appeal to the king. mr. vaugh. none can surmize that you mean an appeal to the people by what is moved , for what is done , must be done to some part of the parliament ; the king , lords , or your selves : and they who speak of it ( if it were done with evil intent ) deserve to be called to the bar ; when it is brought before you for your approbation , you may either retain , or reject it . sir walt. you. i desire that the house may know before hand to whom they are to remonstrate , and on what ground , and therefore to adjourn their debate now . mr. trev. what appeal you make ought to be to the king , but bring it in hither and give it what name you please . sir rob. atk. as i would be tender of your priviledges , so , of giving offence to the lords , therefore we shall endeavour to be unanimous in this house ; a protestation is named , i am a stranger to it , and would understand clearly what is is before we do it ; that it is a course warranted by presidents and proceedings of parliaments , considering what effect it hath had in late times , therefore we may do well to adjourn the debate and consider of it . sir tho. litt. this protestation will be like that in the lord maynard's case , but somewhat longer , and ought to go farther then to one of the estates , and be kept within the walls . mr. swinf . you sent up a charge to the lords in general , desiring that the earl of clarendon should be secured , and in covenient time you would send up articles ; from that time it hath not been done , and the lords have passed several votes about it since , but you have not passed one . first they voted , that they had not complied with your desires for want of particular treason ; then you give them reasons , they are not satisfied with them ; then a free conference , they are still unsatisfied ; and all this while you have not come to any resolution : so that till you come to a vote , no man knows but that you are satisfied with their answer ; for when the matter of the protestation is brought in , we shall not be ready for it till we have resolved , that what the lords insist on , is an obstruction of justice , and you cannot agree with them without great inconvenience to the nation ; therefore put a question , that the lords , not having agreed to secure the earl of clarendon upon the general impeachment , have obstructed the publick iustice of the kingdom in proceedings of parliament , and is of dangerous consequence : this is necessary , because the lords have heard nothing from you , but endeavour to satisfie them . sir iohn good. this question will be a greater accusation of the whole house of lords , than the other is of the earl of clarendon . if you will go by way of protestation , and keep it within your own walls , i like it better than this question . sir rob. how. the putting this question is no charge upon the house of lords ; and therefore if that gentleman thinks it so great an one , sure he thinks the charge against the earl clarendon to be a very small one . is there any obstruction to justice ? if not , why do we not comply ? if there be , we cannot it seems complain without charging the lords . keeping it within your own walls , is but like a man , when he is alone , muttering arguments to himself , and commending himself for it . if you meet with any obstructions , pray first put the question , whether you are obstructed . sir rob. atk. it is no light matter to charge the lords with obstructing justice ; therefore the thing being new , pray adjourn it till to morrow , that we may be more of one mind . then the question was stated , namely , that the lords not having complied with the desire of the commons in committing the earl of clarendon , and sequestring him from parliament upon the impeachment from this house , is an obstruction to the publick justice of the kingdom , and is a president of evil and dangerous consequence . resolved , that the question be put , and being put , resolved in the affirmative . resolved , that a committee be appointed to draw up a declaration to vindicate the proceedings of this house . decemder , . a message from the lords by two judges , that they have received a large petition from the earl of clarendon , which intimates that he is withdrawn . sir tho. tompk . moved to take care to get the sea-ports stopt . sir tho. lit. i believe he is now past stopping , but we should do it , tho' it have no effect ; lest it look as tho' we would have him escape . sir rob. how. the lords seem now mistaken in their opinion at the conference , they said there was no fear of his running away , and in our house it hath been jested that he was not like to ride post. besides the expression in the message is ( withdrawn ) which may be an inward chamber , therefore 't is fit to desire to see the petition , and command some members to prepare something to vindicate your selves in discharge of your duty . mr. seym. you cannot take notice to the lords of the petition , unless they think good to communicate to you , but make the declaration mr. vaugh. i look upon what the lords say as doubtful , therefore beware lest you do something misbecoming you . they only say , that he is withdrawn , but not what is his petition ; for the saying that he is withdrawn , is not the matter of a petition . perhaps he is gone into the country , the message seems light , and you are to take no notice of it . if it be of moment , and they think us concern'd , they should let us know it ; and i cannot think so of the lords , that they would use that word , if he were fled : therefore send a message , to know whether fled or withdrawn . mr. sol. gen. when a delinquent signifies to his judges , that he is withdrawn , it cannot signifie any thing , but that he is withdrawn from their judgment . none but a mad man will tell them that he is fled fearing what may follow ; it would be well if their care would prevent his flying , but you cannot answer it , if you hear they do nothing , and so seem to say , fare him well . upon all which motions , ordered , that sir tho. cliff. ( comptroler of the king's household ) be sent to the king , to desire the ports may be stopped . december , the lord fitzharding makes report from the king , that the message for stopping the ports being delivered him , he had taken care accordingly . a message from the lords to desire a speedy conference : from which mr. solicitor reports . we attended the lords at the conference , which was delivered by the duke of buck. who said to this purpose . that the lords had commanded him to deliver to us that scandalous and seditious paper sent from the earl of clarendon , desiring us to present it to you ; and to desire you in convenient time to send it to them again , for it had a stile which they were in love with , and desired to keep it . which said paper was read , and is as follows , viz. to the right honourable the lords spiritual and temporal , in parliament assembled . the humble petition and address of edward earl of clarendon . may it please your lordships , i cannot express the unsupportable trouble and grief of mind i sustain under the apprehension of being misrepresented to your lordships , and when i hear how much of your lordships time hath been spent upon the mention of me , as it is attended with more publick consequences , and of the differences of opinion which have already , or may probably arise between your lordships and the honourable house of commons ; whereby the great and weighty affairs of the kingdom may be obstructed in the time of so general a dissatisfaction . i am very unfortunate to find my self to suffer so much under two very disadvantageous reflections , which are in no degree applicable to me . the first from the greatness of my estate and fortune , collected and made in so few years , which if it be proportionable to what is reported , may very reasonably cause my integrity to be suspected . the second , that i have been the sole manager and chief minister in all the transactions of state since the king's return into england , to august last , and therefore that all miscarriages and misfortunes ought to be imputed to me and my councels . concerning my estate , your lordships will not believe , that after malice and envy hath been so inquisitive and so sharp sighted i will offer any thing to your lordships , but what is exactly true ; and i do assure your lordships , in the first place , that ( excepting from the king's bounty ) i have never received nor taken one penny but what was generally understood to be the just lawful perquisites of my office , by the constant practice of the best times , which i did in my own iudgment conceive to be that of my lord coventry , and my lord elsmore ; the practice of which i constantly observed , altho' the office in both their times was lawfully worth double to what it was to me , and i believe now is . that all the courtesies and favours which i have been able to obtain from the king for other persons in church or state , or in westminster-hall , have never been worth me five pounds : so that your lordships may be confident i am as innocent from corruption as from any disloyal thought , which after near thirty years service of the crown , in some difficulties and distresses , i did never expect would be objected to me in my age. and i do assure your lordships , and shall make it very manifest , that the several sums of money , and some parcels of land , which his majesty hath bountifully bestowed upon me since his return into england , are worth more than all i have amounts unto ; so far i am from advancing my estate by indirect means . and tho' this bounty of his hath very far exceeded my merit , or my expectation , yet some others have been as fortunate at least in the same bounty who had as small pretences to it , and have no great reason to envy my condition . concerning the other imputation of the credit and power of being chief minister , and so causing all to be done that i had a mind to , i have no more to say , than that i had the good fortune to serve a muster of a very great iudgment and vnderstanding , and be always joyn'd with persons of great ability and experience , without whose advice and concurrence , never any thing hath been done . before his majesty's coming into england , he was constantly attended by the then marquess of oumond , the late lord culpeper , and mr. secretary nicholas , who were equally trusted with my self , and without whose ioynt advice and concurrence , when they were all present ( as some of them always were ) i never gave any councel . as soon as it pleased god to bring his majesty into england , he established his privy council , and shortly , out of them he choose a number of honourable persons of great reputation ( who for the most part are still alive ) as a committee for forreign affairs and consideration of such things as in the nature of them required much secrefie , and with these persons he vouchsafed to ioyn me : and i am confident this committee never transacted any thing of moment ( his majesty being always present ) without presenting the same first to the council-board , and i must appeal to them concerning my carriage , and whether we were not all of one mind , in matters of importance . for more than two years i never knew any differences in the councils , or that there were any complaints in the kingdom , which i wholly impute to his majesty's great wisdom , and the intire concurrence of his councellours , without the vanity of assuming any thing to my self ; and therefore i hope i shall not be singly charged with any thing that hath since fal'n out amiss . but from the time mr. secretary nicholas was removed from his place , there were great alterations ; and whosoever knew any thing of the court and councils , know well how much my credit hath since that time been diminished , tho' his majesty graciously vouchsafed still to here my advice in most of his affairs : nor hath there been , from that time to this , above one or two persons brought to the council , or preferr'd to any considerable office in the court who have been of my intimate acquaintance , or suspected to have any kindness for me ; and most of them , most notoriously known to have been very long my enemies , and of different iudgment and principles from me , both in church and state , and have taken all opportunities to lessen my credit with the king , and with all other persons , by mis-representing and mis-reporting all that i said or did , and perswading men i have done them some prejudice with his majesty , or crossed them in some of their pretensions ; tho' his majesty's goodness and iustice was such , that it made little impression upon him . in my humble opinion , the great misfortunes of the kingdom have proceeded from the war , to which it is notoriously known that i was always most averse , and may without vanity say , i did not only foresee , but declare the mischiefs we should run into , by entering into a war , before any alliances made with the neighbouring princes , and that it may not be imputed to his majesty's want of care , or the negligence of his councellors , that no such alliances were entered into , i must take the boldness to say , his majesty left nothing unattempted in order thereunto ; and knowing very well , that france resolved to begin a war upon spain , as soon as his catholick majesty should depart this world , which being much sooner expected by them , they had in the two winters before been at great charges in providing plentiful magazeens of all provisions upon the frontiers , that they might be ready for the war , his majesty used all possible means to prepare and dispose the spaniard with that apprehension , offering his friendship to that degree , as might be for the benefit and security of both crowns . but spain flattering it self . that france would not break with them , at least , that they would not give them any cause by administring matter of iealousie to them , never made any real approach towards a friendship with his majesty , but , both by their embassadors here , and to his majesty's embassador at madrid , always persisted , as preliminaries , upon the giving up of dunkirk , tangier and jamaica . tho' france had an embassador here , to whom a project of a treaty was offered , and the lord hollis , his majesty's embassador at paris , used all endeavours to pursue and prosecute the said treaty , yet it was quickly discerned , that the principal design of france was to draw his majesty into such a nearer alliance as might advance their design ; without which , they had no mind to enter into the treaty proposed . and this was the state of affairs when the war was entred into with the dutch , from which time , neither crown much considered the making any alliance with england . as i did from my soul abhor the entring into this war , so i presumed never to give any advice or councel for the way of managing it , but by opposing many propositions , which seemed to the late lord treasurer and my self to be unreasonable , as the payment of the seamen by tickets , and many other particulars which added to the expence . my enemies took all occasions to enveigh against me , and making their friendship with others out of the council , of more licencious principles , and who knew well enough how much i disliked and complained of the liberty they took to themselvs of reviling all councils and councellours , and turning all things serious and sacred into ridicule , they took all ways imaginable to render me ungrateful to all sorts of men , ( whom i shall be compelled to name in my defence ) perswading those that miscarryed in any of their designs , that it was the chancellours doing ; whereof , i never knew any thing . however , they could not withdraw the king's favour from me , who was still pleased to use my service with others , nor was there ever any thing done but with the joynt advice of at least the major part of those who were consulted with . and as his majesty commanded my service in the late treaties , so i never gave the least advice in private , nor wrote one letter to any one person in either of those negotiations but upon the advice of the council , and also after it was read in council , or at least by the king himself , and some other ; and if i prepared any instructions or memorials , it was by the king's command , and the request of the secretaries who desired my assistance ; nor was it any wish of my own , that any embassador should give me any account of the transactions , but to the secretaries , to whom i was always ready to advise ; nor am i conscious to my self of ever having given advice that hath proved mischievous or inconvenient to his majesty ; and i have been so far from being the sole manager of affairs , that i have not in the whole last year been above twice with his majesty in any room alone , and very seldom in the two or three years preceding . and since the parliament at oxford , it hath been very visible , that my credit hath been very little , and that very few things have been hearkned to , which have been proposed by me , but contradicted , eo nomine , because proposed by me . i most humbly beseech your lordships to remember the office and trust i had for seven years , in which , in discharge of my duty i was obliged to stop and obstruct many mens pretences , and refused to set the seal to many pardens and other grants , which would have been profitable to those who procured them , and many whereof , upon my representation to his majesty , were for ever stopt , which naturally have raised many enemies to me : and my frequent concurring , upon the desires of the late lord treasurer , ( with whom i had the honour to have a long and vast friendship to his death ) in representing several excesses and exorbitances , the yearly issue so far exceeding the revenues , provoked many persons concerned , of great power and credit , to d● me all the ill offices they could . and yet i may faithfully say , that i never medled with any part of the revenue or the administration of it , but when i was desired by the late lord treasurer to give him my assistance and advice , having had the honour formerly to serve the crown as chancellour of the exchequer , which was for the most part in his majesty's presence . nor have i ever been in the least degree concern'd , in point of profit , in letting any part of his majesty's revenue ; nor have ever treated or debated it , but in his majesty's presence , in which my opinion concurr'd always with the major part of the councellours who were present . all which , upon examination , will be made manifest to your lordships , how much soever my integrity is blasted by the malice of those who i am confident do not believe themselves . nor have i in my life , upon all the treaties , or otherwise , received the value of one shilling from all the kings or princes in the world , ( excepting the books of the louvre print sent me by the chancellour of france by that kings direction ) but from my own master , to whose intire service , and the good and welfare of my country , no man's heart was every more devoted . this being my present condition ; i do most humbly beseech your lordships to entertain a favourable opinion of me , and to believe me to be innocent from those foul aspersions , untill the contrary shall proved ; which i am sure can never be by any man worthy to be believed : and since the distempers of the times , and the difference between the two houses in the present debate , with the power and malice of my enemies , who gave out that i should prevail with his majesty to prorogue or dissolve this parliament in displeasure , and threaten to expose me to the rage and fury of the people , may make me to be look'd upon as the cause which obstructs the kings service , and vnity and peace of the kingdom . i most humbly beseech your lordships , that i may not forfeit your lordships favour and protection , by with-drawing my self from so powerful a persecution , in hope that i may be able , by such withdrawing , hereafter to appear , and make my defence , when his majesty's iustice ( to which i shall always submit ) may not be obstructed , or controled , by the power and malice of those who have sworn my destruction . clarendon . mr. vaugh. i think it not convenient to loose more time about this paper . since the time of the earl of clarendons name being mention'd here , i had nothing to charge him with till now , but most of the heads of this charge are so weighty , that i am confident , they will be easily and thoroughly proved , tho' i know not how ; so that i admire at his confidence , to charge this house , and so the nation , as his persecutors , and that in such a condition , as he hopes to vindicate himself . it s the first time that ever i heard an innocent man run away under the greatest charge , with hopes to return again and vindicate himself . then mark one expression ; he saith , he is as far from corruption , as from disloyalty : if he said he was guilty of neither , he had said something ; but by that expression he may be guilty of both : so insolent a paper i never met with in this kingdom , nor have i ever read the like in any other ; so inconsiderable a part of the nation as he is to lay it upon the nation , who , if innocent , might defend himself , if guilty , why doth he charge the nation with persecuting ? therefore without troubling your selves with it , do , as the lords have done ; who deliver it to you as a scandalous and seditious paper ; it hath malice in it , and is the greatest reproach upon the king and the whole nation , that ever was given by man. therefore put the question whether his paper shall not have the character , that it is a scandalous and malicious paper , and a reproach to the iustice of the nation . resolved upon the question . that the paper sent to the lords by the earl of clarendon , and by them sent down to the house of commons , and now read , is scandalous and seditious , and doth reproach the king and the publick iustice of the nation . sir rob. how. you have voted this paper scandalous , and therefore it should not live , wherefore i move it should be burnt by the hangman . mr. garraw . the paper is the lords , and you must send it to them , but enter it into your books , and your vote upon it . resolved , to have it burnt . sir rob. car. the paper is the lords , therefore move them to concur that it may be burnt . sir rob. how. the meaning of my motion is , because the duke of buckingham desired the paper again for the admirableness of the stile , it is entered into their books already , and they need it not to that end ; therefore desire the lords concurrence to burn it . resolved , to send it to the lords to that end . december , . a motion being made to send to the lords in pursuance of the vote about burning the paper . mr. vaugh. i am against sending up to the lords to that purpose , because you have ordered to enter the paper into your books , and when a paper is burnt , it is not to stand upon record , but should be rased out ; which two things are a perfect contradiction , therefore let it rest as it is ; we have voted it scandalous , &c. the lords tell us not that they have done any such thing , tho' they ought to have done it first . as for the earl of clarendon , he being now gone , if such a like occasion should fall out , we are in a worse condition than we were ; for there is this president against us , in a case now manifest : and it becomes us to do something in order to the lords concurring , that so a good understanding may be got ; therefore i shall propound this to you , to be sent up to them to that end . namely , when any subject shall be impeached by the commons before the lords in parliament with desire to secure him , such person by the law of the land ought to be secured accordingly . this you have in effect voted already , in saving the iustice of the kingdom is obstructed by their not doing it . secondly , when such impeached persons shall be secured , the lords may limit a certain time for bringing in the charge , to prevent delay of justice . this may salve all , and prevent such ways , as may be displeasing to the lords . and perhaps us also , in some cases here after . mr. swin . i am perswded that according to rules of parliament , when you charge by impeachment generally , and promise in due time to send up your charge , they ought to secure , but they not having done it , i question whether you could do what you have , but the earl of clarendon flying , it is manifest justice was obstructed ; for he might have been brought to his tryal , if the lords had secured him ; but now your vote is made good , which seems to lay the advantage on your side . sir rob , how. i think this message to the lords will destroy the way of vindicating our selves by declaration ; therefore finish the declaration , and then resolve before you publish it , whether to send up this message . mr. vaugh. if the lords agree with us , we may spare the declaration , but if they agree not now , they will much less hereafter : your declaration , can amount to no more but this , make a narrative of the invalidity of the lords presidents , but then you must of necessity do something more , else your labour is in vain ; therefore this message with these votes are necessary . sir rich. temp. i expected that when the earl of clarendon had been fled , the lords would have desired the king to issue out a proclamation to apprehend him , seeing they have been the occasion of his escape ; therefore now desire their concurrence to go to the king to that end , and if they concur , they have upon the matter granted commitment upon a general impeachment . mr. vaugh. i thought it my duty to offer you what i have done , if you like it not , i desire to be excused in serving you in the declaration , and that they who think it necessary would be pleased to take the pains to do it . sir tho. lee. if you declare , it will beget an answer , and where will that end ? if you send up your votes , and the lords agree , your end is answered ; for it is a yielding that which they have yet denyed : your declaring , and entring it upon the journal , will be to no purpose ; it is but like a man , who having been beaten publickly , in the chamber calls him who did it rogue . mr. hampd . i desire that the words ( law of the land ) may be left out , and the words ( law of parliament , or , vsuage of parliament ) put instead of them ; for it hath been shewed us , that there are several ways of impeachment besides common-law . mr. vaugh. those words were purposely put in , because at the free conserence , when we pressed the law of parliaments , the lords pressed the law of the land by way of negative , as if the law of the land were otherwise , but rather than that shall be any obstruction , put it by law. mr. stew. leave out the words ( by law ) for if a man be secured , it is implyed by them who do commit that it is according to law. then it being moved to draw both votes in one . sir tho. litt. tho' you should put both votes into one , it will not answer your end , for the lords will not concur with the first part , and yet may make use of what part you grant of it , that is the last , and so have advantage against you ; but there is another reason , why you should forbear these votes , namely , prudence . the earl of clarendon being gone , there is an expectation that a bill should be prepared to do something farther , wherein i hope both houses will join ; if you send up this , you will give disturbance to that bill , and if you should enter this in your books , in order to send it up hereafter , they will hear of it , as done to make them swallow their former resolves . therefore defer it for the present . mr. trev. consider whether the matter hetwixt you and the lords is not well as it is : you have voted , that when a man is generally impeached , he ought to be secured , and that the lords not having done it , is an obstruction to justice ; and what will it signifie to carry it to the lords ? what hath since fal'n out , justifies you , and lays the disadvantage upon the lords : the world expects now what you will do farther , and that must be by concurring with the lords . sir tho. cliff. we all agree to these votes , in order to justifie your rights ; but what is the use of it ? you have already done it in your books , and you cannot expect the lords should go so much against their own votes , this therefore will but widen the gap , it being telling them they must eat their words . sir tho. litt. those , who have had a hand in the charge against the earl of clarendon , have been thought sometimes too violent , sometimes too remiss , as not able to make out the charge : but what i speak now , is for your honour , which will be wrong'd in this proceeding ; i am for bringing the impeachment to something ; and therefore against these votes : now you make a declaration of your own rights , and enter it upon your books , that not only the vote may appear , but the ground of it , but not to declare to the lords , which will beget an answer and exasperate . it is now unseasonable to make the lords retract , therefore lay it aside ; for tho' i am confident that gentleman did it to no such end , yet if i would design any thing to the earl of clarendon's advantage , i could not take a better way than this . mr. vaugh. this is but the affirming all which hath a been done already , and i am for none of those , who are contriving for any thing out of the house . sir will. covent . this question is not now seasonable , tho' it is a better expedient than the declaration as things now stand , and considering what hath past , i am apt to think the lords may do it of their own accord , and you would not willingly have a negative to your votes . therefore seeing your votes may be of use hereafter , put no question at all , but adjourn the debate to a proper season . mr. vaugh. i am against the adjourning of it , and have given testimony , that i have done nothing to be thought to do that which is so much for the advantage of the earl of clarendon , and shall take heed of doing any thing hereafter to be so reflected on . sir tho. litt. i hope i avoided any such reflection nor speak any thing to such purpose , i do not beleive , nor ever did think any such thing , and hope that gentleman himself believes that no man in this house hath more honour for him than i. sir iob charle . let the world see that you do not intend to restrain your proceedings to the earl of clarendon , but make it a general care ; and therefore are concerned in honour to put the question . resolved upon the question . that the question be put . resolved , that both the questions propounded by mr. vaugh. and put singly in the affirmative , be carryed up to the lords . december , . a bill was brought from the lords , to banish the earl of clarendon , and read . after reading , several objections being made , and it being alledged , that it was an abuse put upon the commons by the lords , and that a bill of attainder being propounded , after some debate , the house pass'd this vote . resolved , that this house taking notice of the flight of the earl of clarendon , being under an impeachment of high treason by this house ; the king's majesty be humbly desired to issue out his proclamation for summoning the said earl to appear by a day , and to apprehend him in order to his tryal . resolved , to send to the lords for their concurrence to this vote . december , . a message from the lords for a conference , at which they delivered two reasons , why they could not concur . . first , for that they conceive a proclamation in the way proposed , would be ineffectual , since it is not supaena convictionis , which cannot be till particulars in order to tryal be declared . . that , what the house of commons hath proposed , and do propose at present , is intended in order to a judicial way of proceeding ; but since the earl of clarendon's flight , their lordships upon consideration of the whole state of affairs , and of the kingdom , have upon grounds of prudence and iustice , thought fit for securing of king and kingdom , to proceed in a legislative way against the said earl , and haue to that end , past and sent down to them a bill of banishment and incapacity against him , with which this vote is inconsistent . december , . the said reasons from the lord being reported and considered , and it being moved that the house would declare themselve unsatisfied with them . sir tho. cliff. i am against passing a vote at present upon the lords reasons , but read the bill sent down from thence , and summons him by it to appear by a day . mr. trev. some are against the bill , because it goes too far , condemning before hearing , others would have it to go farther . summons is in order to hearing , tryal , and judgment ; of those he hath made himself incapable by flight , and hath in his paper told you , that he will neither be heard , nor tryed by you : tho' you expected to have him secured by a general accusation , yet you never expected judgment upon it . then it is said , this banishment falls short of treason , but we are not to pass sentence for crimes but as a council propound to the king what is necessary in this case : then consider whether this bill will answer our ends , and if it doth , delay will make it worse ; i think we should make it reach them . what if he hath life in other parts , his family untainted , and his children alive , and enjoy his estate ? sir rob. carr. you have ordered to consider the reasons from the lords , therefore do it . mr. hen. covent . the motion to read the bill is not against your order , because part of the reasons given by the lords is , that you have a bill , and till you have read the bill , you cannot lay by the reasons . the earl of clarendon is fled , you have a tye upon him in having his innocent relations , and by proceeding farther , you make him desperate , you are now in an even way with the lords ; therefore read the bill . mr. swins . you may go upon the reasons , and yet not reject the bill ; for when you sent to the lords about a proclamation , and went not upon the bill , it was , because what the bill drives at is the highest punishment next to death . therefore consider what weight is in the reasons ; one of them seeming to put you upon the bill , they put you thereupon on a legislative way ; they will neither secure nor summon him , but will condemn him unheard . they cannot secure him upon a charge of treason , nor yet summon him , but they can condemn him ; and this they put you upon , which is against honour and justice , especially to do it up on reason of state. the legislative power of parliaments is great , it hath no bound but the integrity and justice of parliaments . if reason of state be a motive of parliament to banish one man , so it may be for many . if you go in this legislative way , you bring upon your selves all the dishonour of the business , but the lords will have some excuse , which you cannot , for they look'd upon the charge so flight , as not to imprison him ; the party is gone , because he was not secured , apprehending ( he saith ) fear of the multitude , not of his tryal , so that the lords not giving credit to your charge against him , he says , he flies not from justice . now , if upon this bill you shall banish him , it would be said you could not make good the charge ; and therefore laid this sentence upon him . the president is also dangerous , if having gone so far in a judicial way , you should now go in a legislative . if upon reason of state lords may be banished , it may be by dozens : as you proceed justly , so you will be justified . nor is the danger greater if the lords go by proclamation , and he be put into custody when he comes , if he can practice any thing , will not he be less capable when under the proclamation , than when this bill is passed , which condemns him without hearing , and i am not for any punishment till heard . in cromwells case , who moved in hen. viii . time , to attaint a lord unheard , the judges declared they might , and it would stand , afterward the said cromwell was attainted and condemned unheard , and such councel usually falls upon those that councell'd it . sir rob. how. the earl of clarendon saith , that he doth not withdraw from your iustice , but fear of tumults ; but that reason any man may give for his flying , if it will be an excuse ; but he might have secured himself from tumults by rendring himself , and his innocency upon his tryal would have cleared him . this at last may come to a free conference , then you may be left to go along with the king ; the house riseth and doth nothing , and then the world will see that this business will assure the king of france , that he hath a man with him so great , as to hinder us from doing any thing against him : therefore as you ought to do something against him , see whether it may not be done by the bill by resuming his lands , &c , if he come not in by a day . an exception may be against this way , namely , that there is no attainder , but if there had been such a bill , the thing which should sway me should be the duke of york's marriage : so , that if you commit this bill , you may add all severities , except that of attainder , and if he come by a day , then all to be void . if you go by proclamation , the lords may not concur and you loose your ends. by this bill all favour that he can expect is shewed , and this way will be the best confutation of the lords reasons ; therefore commit the bill . mr , secretary morr . i am for committing the bill , tho' it be condemning unheard ; because he could not but conclude it would be so . et volenti non fit injuria . sir ric. temp. you have proceeded against this earl in all ordinary ways , and have been baffled by the lords . in edward the third's reign , adam de berry fled , and a proclamation went against him , and the commons neither did , nor ever were bound to deliver their articles till the party appeared , and in that case they delivered not their articles till the last day , when he not appearing was convicted . when you would go by attainder , they tell you , deliver special matter , and we will summon him ; when you ask a proclamation , they tell you , deliver special matter : if you declare the matter to the court , it is upon record , and all may know it . you have tryed all ways legal and regular , and they will do you justice in neither . now what can you do ? except you and the lords combine in justice together , he must escape , and if you can be made to differ , he goes away in a smoak . if you go to the king for a proclamation , you must return to the lords for justice . i am sorry the ivey hath been so near the oak , that you cannot touch it , without touching that . there remains a bill before you , and in that you are upon equal terms with the lords ; therefore give him a day to be heard , and if he come , let him , but then his penalties are too low for his crimes ; therefore read the bill , go higher , degrade him of honours , forfeit his lands , and whether you will go so far , i leave with you . mr. soll. gene. it is not possible to agree with the lords in their reasons , but the reason must be because the bill is good . but if any man thinks it is good upon the lords reasons he is mistaken ; and therefore my advice is to proceed upon the bill , tho' not upon the reasons from the lords . some think the punishment in the bill too little for the crime , others too much , because not summon'd ; so that it must fall out , that a person impeached by the house of commons must see the house rise without any marks of displeasure upon him : can any man be heard , who will not be heard ? why should not you proceed in such a way against him , as whose very flight amounts to a confession ? and have you not burnt his paper for refiecting upon the house ? and can you think he will appear who is departed in despair of the court ? and now you are contending to give him time . then consider the thing in it self . suppose the king had a mind to attaint him , the king can do it without your help , for he may be outlawed for high-treason ; for tho' that be reversable at common-law , if he be beyond sea , yet by two express acts of parliament it is otherwise , but the king cannot banish him without your concurrence : suppose him fled and attainted , so that the question is not upon his life , but his estate , suppose your justice satisfied in that , is it not past all manner of consideration that the king cannot upon application restore it ? so , that all you lookt for by attainder , is done by this bill of banishment , for his life is saved by flight , as would his estate by compassion ; but there is something in this bill , which , without it , you can never get , that is , you put him under your displeasure , which , the king cannot pardon ; and and will you have it thought abroad , that the earl of clarendon , fled as he is , hath been something too hard for the two houses ? sir tho. litt. if there be a necessity of differing with the lords , and i thought the difference would produce such effects , i should not speak , but they only tell you 't is unnecessary and ineffectnal . you have impeached , and are now told if you proceed , it will make difference ; but i fear another greater danger than this difference . the world will say you were willing he should fly , because you could not prove by flying he hath forfeited his estate ; if the king give it him again it is his mercy ; but do you justice : therefore press for a proclamation , for the bill is inconsistent with your honour . mr. vaugh. i have listned with much attention to this discourse , and understand it as little now as at the beginning , the discourse being nothing adequate to that end . you have reasons from the lords why they agree not with you , and if you agree with the reasons , the summ is to read the bill ; but if you agree not , you must desire a conference , and if they concur , you may have a proclamation , if not ( as i think they will not ) you are where you were : we suppose him not to be in england , and if so , what is the proclamation more than the king 's writ ? it reacheth no man out of the kingdom . it s true , in some cases , if the persons are gone out of the land they are summon'd , and if they come not , their lands are seized , but it is not by proclamation , which signifies nothing if the party be gone . then go on , suppose the lords joyn in desiring a proclamation , the end of which is appearing and apprehending , possibly you gain one part , that if he be apprehended , they do imprison him upon a general impeachment ; but if they agree not , what benefit have you by it ? none : but if he appears , to what is it ? there is no charge , if apprehended , to answer the general charge . then the third way is , if the lords agree not , that you should go to the king , and there is a more dangerous rock in that , than in any thing ; for we never heard of a commitment per ipsum dominum regem , but per mandatum domini regis , because against the king lies no damages : what then must you do ? many think it injustice to proceed , if he be not called by proclamation . but it is plain , if you proceed upon this bill , you go not upon your impeachment , but because he is fled from the justice of the land , wherewith you have charged him in burning his paper ; and it imports little , that he saith he is innocent ; for why then doth he fly ? shall we abate him of what he ought to suffer for his saying so ? he is fled from the justice of the parliament , and therefore is proceeded with , and for what others say , you ought not to regard popular reasons , but to pursue your own ; it is enough for you to hear some proofs made : when was it known in any court , that proofs should be taken only on one side ? so that you cannot acquit your own justice , nor bring him any ways to answer , he being gone , nor can you have any effect of the proclamation , tho' the lords join in it : therefore unless you will have nothing done after all this , ( for he may not be guilty of all charged , who yet hath made himself guilty of what is charged by flying ) read the bill . at last the question was put , whether the bill should be read and committed . for it . against it . december , . the bill for banishing the earl of clarendon was reported from the committee , and read. sir rob. how. i desire that to the preface of the bill this addition may be made . that whereas the earl of clarendon was impeached of treason by the commons , who desired he might be secured , but was not , and thereupon is fled . and this to the end the protesting lords may be gratified , who took so much care of the commons . sir rob. carr. seconds the motion . sir iohn talb. i cannot concur with that motion , because we cannot take notice of what the lords do . sir rich. temp. we may take notice of things in the lords books which are records , and there the protest is entered ; and tho' not to gratifie them who owned our right , yet we ought to take care of our own right : and that the world may see we have some cause to pass this bill , neither deal so modestly with a man who flies from justice , as to use his own word ( withdrawn ) but call it flying . sir tho. gow . let the words be , that having been impeached , and moved to be secured , hath withdrawn himself . mr. solicitor . the word moved , destroys the bill it self , the word of the bill is to unite the two houses , and this amendment tends to destroy that end , for the addition to the preface being insisted on , the lords will add the reasons for not committing , and so revive the whole matter again . let the lords add in their books what they will , your books will as much justifie you , as theirs them . sir hum. win. let the words be added whether the lords agree , or not , that it may appear upon our books . mr. hugh boscow . the preface is but history , yet add the words , and let the lords insert what they please , i should rather concur with them , than leave out those words . mr. vaugh. put no question upon these words , but whether the preface shall go as it is ; the bill in all probability is a safe bill , because it came from them : but if you begin an alteration , you your selves render it unsafe ; for if you put in these words , then the lords will add , for want of special matter , and so it will come to nothing . then the bill was read the third time . mr. vaug. i am against the word withdrawn , and for the word flight instead of it , and in regard the justice of this bill depends upon the word ( flight ) put it expresly . sir rob. carr. i am against this bill , tho' i was as earnest in the matter as any one while i thought there was proof , but now none appearing , i am against the bill , because you are confirming what the lords have done . mr. vaug. many men wonder that no reason is given for passing this bill , but the question is mistaken , the bill is grounded upon his flight after his impeachment , and his flying implys some guilt , if none , it is the safest argument for any man to run away , and then there is nothing to catch him . a proclamation to a man out of the kingdom signifies nothing . but in the whole it is plain , that he saith , that finding the king's justice obstructed in parliament , he is fled . obj. but it will be said upon bare flight , never was any man punished . answ. if one man kills another and flies , tho' upon his tryal he shall be acquitted , yet he shall never recover his goods because of his flight . there has been several acts of banishment , spencer , &c. and in this , is something more severe than in them , namely , that none shall correspond with him , then there is some advantage , namely , that if he come in by the first of february , all shall be void ; but when the crime is laid , and his flight makes him guilty , he ought not to have a day . then the question was put for passing the bill . for it . against it . and then the house adjourned , articles of high-treason , and other heinous misdemeanours : exhibited against edward earl of clarendon , lord high-chancellour of england , in the house of lords ; on the ioth of iuly , . by the earl of bristol . . that being in place of highess trust and confidence with his majesty , and having arrogated a supream direction in all his majesty's affairs , both at home and abroad , hath wickedly , and maliciously , and with a traiterous intent to draw scandal and contempt upon his majesty's person , and to alienate from him the affections of his subjects abused the said trust in manner following , viz. that he hath traiterously and maliciously endeavoured to alienate the hearts of his hajesty's subjects from him by words of his own , and by artificial insinuations of his creatures and dependances , that his majesty was inclined to popery , and had a design to alter the religion established in this kingdom . that in pursuance of that traiterous intent , he hath to several persons of his majesty's privy-council , held discourses to this effect , viz. that his majesty was dangerously corrupted in his religion , and inclined to propery . that persons of that religion had such access , and such credit with him , that unless there were a careful eye had unto it , the protestant religion would be overthrown in this kingdom ; and in pursuance of the said wicked and traiterous intent , upon his majesty's admitting sir henry bennet to be principal secretary of state , in the place of mr. secretary nicholas , he hath said these words , or words to this effect . that his majesty had given l . to remove a zealous protestant , that he might bring into that place of high trust a concealed papist , notwithstanding , that the said sir henry bennet is known to have ever been both in his profession and practice constant to the protestant religion . that in pursuance of the same traiterous design , several near friends and known dependances of his , have said aloud , that were it not for my lord chancellours standing in the gap , popery would be introduced in this kingdom , or words to that effect . that in pursuance of the aforesaid traiterous design , he hath not only advised and perswaded the king to do such things contrary to his own reasons and resolutions as might confirm and encrease the scandal , which he had endeavoured to raise upon his majesty as aforesaid , of his favour to popery , but more particularly to allow his name to be used to the pope and several cardinals in the sollicitation of a cardinals cap for the lord aubigney , one of his own subjects , and great almoner at present to his royal consort the queen . that in pursuance of the same wicked and traiterous design , he had recommended to be employed to the pope one of his own domesticks , mr. rich. bealing , a person ( tho an avow'd papist ) known to be trusted and employed by him in dispatches and negotiations concerning affairs of greatest concernment to the nation . that in pursuance of the said traiterous design , he being chief minister of state , did himself write by the said mr. rich. bealing letters to several cardinals , pressing them in the king's name to induce the pope to confer a cardinals cap on the said lord aubigny , promising , in case it should be attained , exemption to the roman catholicks of england from the penal laws in force against them ; by which address unto the pope for that ecclesiastical dignity for one of his majesty's subjects and domesticks , he hath , as far as from one action can be inferred , traiterously acknowledged the popes ecclesiastical soveraignty , contrary to the known laws of this kingdom . that in pursuance of the same traiterous design , he has called unto him several priests and iesuits , whom be knew to be superiors , of orders here in england , and desired them to write to their generals at rome , to give their help for the obtaining from the pope the cardinals cap for the lord aubigny , as aforesaid , promising great favour to papists here , in case it should be effected for him . that he hath promised to several papists he would do his endeavour , and said he hoped , to compass the taking away all penal laws against them , which he did in pursuance of the traiterous design aforesaid ; to the end they might presume and grow vain upon his patronage , and by their publishing their hopes of a tolleration , encrease the scandal endeavoured by him , and by his emissaries , to be raised upon his majesty throughout the kingdom . that in pursuance of the same traiterous design , being intrusted with the treaty betwixt his majesty , and his royal consort the queen , be concluded it upon articles scandalous and dangerous to the protestant religion . that in pursuance of the same traiterous design , he concluded the same marriage , and brought the king and queen together , without any settled agreement in what manner the rights of marriage should be performed , whereby the queen refusing to be married by a protestant priest , in case of her being with child , either the succession should be made uncertain for want of the due rights of matrimony , or else his majesty to be exposed to a suspition of having been married in his own dominions by a romish priest , whereby all the former scandals endeavoured to be raised upon his majesty by the said earl , as to point of popery might be confirmed and heightned . that having thus traiterously endeavoured to alienate the affections of his majesty's subjects from him upon the score of religion , he hath endeavoured to make use of all the malicious scandals and iealousies , which he and his emissaries had raised in his majesty's subjects , to raise from them unto himself the popular applause of being the zealous vpholder of the protestant religion , and a promoter of new severities against papists . that he hath traiterously endeavoured to alienate the affections of his majesty's subjects from him , by venting in his own discourse , and by the speeches of his nearest relations and emissaries , opprobrious scandals against his majesty's person and course of life , such as are not fit to be mentioned , unless necessity in the way of proof shall require it . that he hath traiterously endeavoured to alienate the affections of his highness the duke of york from his majesty , by suggesting unto him iealousies as far as in him lay , and publishing abroad by his emissaries , that his majesty intended to legitimate the d. of monmouth . that he hath wickedly and maliciously , contrary to the duty of a privy-councellour of england , and contrary to the perpetual and most important interest of this nation , perswaded his majesty against the advice of the lord general to withdraw the english garrisons out of scotland , and to demolish all the forts built there , at so vast a charge to this kingdom . that his majesty having been graciously pleased to communicate the desires of the parliament of scotland for the remove of the laid garrisons to the parliament of england , and to act their advice therein , the said earl of clarendon , not only perswaded his majesty actually to remove those garrisons , without expecting the advice of his parliament of england concerning it , but did by menaces of his majasty's displeasure , deter several members of parliament from moving the house , as they intended , to enter upon consideration of that matter . that he had traiterously and maliciously endeavoured to alienate his majesty's affections and esteem from this his parliament , by telling his majesty that there was never so weak and inconsiderable a house of lords , nor never so weak and so heady a house of commons , or words to that effect , and particularly , that it was better to sell dunkirk , than to be at their mercy for want of money , or words to that effect . that he hath wickedly and maliciously , contrary to his duty of counsellour , and to a known law made last sessions , by which money was given , and particularly applyed for the maintaining of dunkirk , advised and effected the sale of the same to the french king. that he hath contrary to law , enriched himself and his treasures by the sale of offices . that contrary to his duty he hath wickedly and corruptly converted to his own use , great and vast summs of publick money raised in ireland by way of subsidy , private and publick benevolences , and otherwise , given and intended to desray the charge of government in that kingdom . by which means a supernumerary and disaffected army hath been kept up there , for want of money to pay them off , occasioned it seems to be because of the late and present distempers of that kingdom . that having arrogated to himself a supream direction of all his majesty's affairs , be hath , with a malicious and corrupt intention , prevailed to have his majesty's customs farmed at a far lower rate than others do offer , and that by persons , with some of whom he goes a share in , that , and other parts of money resulting from his majesty's revenue . july th , . bristol . the earl of bristol having exhibited against the lord chancellour , articles of high-treason , and other misdemeanours . this order was made by the house of peers . die veneris , july , . ordered , by the lords spiritual and temporal in parliament assembled , that a copy of the articles or charge of high-treason exhibited this day by the earl of bristol , against the lord chancellour , be delivered to the lord chief-iustice ; who , with all the rest of the judges are to consider whether the said charge hath been brought in regularly and legally , and whether it may be proceeded in , and how , and whether there be any treason in it or no , and make report thereof to this house on monday next if they can , or else as soon after as possibly they may . whereupon , all the judges met at serjeauts-inn in fleet-street , and my lord of bristol repaired to us thither , desiring to see the order , which being read , he told us he came out of respect to know of us whether we were informed how it came into the house of peers , whether as a charge or not ; but one of the judges , who had been present when it was delivered in , saying , we were tied up by our order , his lordship took some exception at the manner of his expression , as if his lordships address was unnecessary at that time , anb taking it as a rebuke unto him , went away ; but according to our order , which supposed it to be a charge of high-treason , and not mentioning misdemeanour , we did upon consideration unanimously agree upon this ensuing answer , which on monday the th of iuly , the lord chief-iustice foster did deliver in , viz. we conceive that a charge of high-treason cannot by the laws and statutes of this realm be originally exhibited by one peer against another unto the house of peers , and that therefore a charge of high-treason by the earl of bristol against the lord chancellour , mentioned in the order of reference to us of the th of this instant july , hath not been regularly and legally brought in , and if the matters alledged in the said charge , were admitted to be true , altho' alledged to be traiterously done , yet there is no treason in it . which answer being given in , the earl of bristol took some exceptions at it , and some of the lords inferred thence , that if it were irregularly and illegally brought in , it was a libel ; but we satisfied them that it was not under consideration of us , whether it came in as an information or charge ; our order required us to give answer to it as a charge . secondly , we did not meddle with any thing concerning accusing him of misdemeanour , for our order reached only to treason . thirdly , it did not follow that if this charge were irregular , or illegal , that therefore he was criminal : there might be presidents to give colour to such kind of proceedings , for which , till it be declared or known that they are illegal , they are titular , and ought not to be punished . but it was much insisted on , that we should deliver the reason of our opinions , the lord of bristol and his friends seeming unsatisfied . we replyed , that it was never known , that when the justices to whom questions were referred from parliament had unanimously agreed in their opinions , that reasons were required from them . yet , notwithstanding , it being the desire of the lords after some things premised , and a desire that this should not be drawn into an example , ( which the lords assented unto as i took it , for no order was entred concerning it , there being no order as i think for delivering our reasons entred ) and it was agreed amongst us , that no note should be reduced , least we might be required to deliver our reasons in writing , nor had i time to digest it in writing , having only monday night after conference with my brethren to think upon it , i did on the next tuesday , being the th of iuly , deliver the reasons of all the judges , of their opinions , by their consents . to the first point , that a charge of high-treason cannot originally be exhibited by one peer against another unto the house of peers , the emphasis of the word originally was shewed . for first , an indictment of treason against a peer may be removed up to the lords house to be tryed , as it was in the h. . in the earl of devonshir's case , but a steward was then to be made . secondly , if an impeachment came from the house of commons unto the lords house , we did not take upon us the consideration , whether this could be proceeded in or not , for it was not the case to which we were required to give answer . we replyed , upon the statute h. . chap. . which recits the many great inconveniencies and mischiefs by appeals , and provides that all appeals of things within the realm , shall be tryed and determined by the good laws of the realm made and used in the time of the king 's noble progenitors , and appeals of things out of the realm before the constable and marshal : but we relyed upon the clause ensuing , and thereupon it is accorded and assented , that no appeals be from thenceforth made , or in any wise pursued in parliament in time to come . i shewed appeals in this statute , and accusations by single persons were one and the same thing , and that this statute reached to all appeals , charges , accusations or impeachments delivered in , in parliament , whereupon the person accused was to be put to his answer , and that they were but several names of the same thing , i shewed first historically , that the appeals the r. . and r. . were but accusations by those lords of felons against the other , and differed from the case of the duke of hereford and norfolk , which was to be tryed as r. . pl. cor. in parl. no. . is by the course of the civil law , and thereupon batle was waged . that tho' it concerned h. . in interest to confirm the r. . and repell the r. . he being appellant in the former , yet he saw the mischief so great , that he himself made provision against them for the time to come ; and indeed , the mischief was so great , that it ceased not after the destruction of many lords and families ( there being lex talionis in that r. . used towards most of those appellants in the r. . ) till it tumbled king r. . first out of his throne , and then into his grave . that there were but two sorts of proceedings in capitalibus , the suit of the party which was called an appeal , or the suit of the king , who ought to proceed by indictment , and so to tryal by vertue of magna charta . nec super eam ibimus , &c. and that , in an appeal , being the suit of the party , there was no prerogative of appearance if it were an appeal at the common-law , ed. . lord gray's case . that an appeal was taken in our law-books frequently for an accusation by the party , i scited westm. the st , cap. . where the words appeal reaches to indictment . and cook , . lord zanchar's case , that an appeal of two significations , one general and frequent in our books for an accusation , and stamford , . in case of an approver , the felon after confession may appeal , that is , ( saith he ) accuse others , coadjutors with him to do the felony . c. c. . appellant , cometh from the french word appeller , which signifies to accuse , or appeach , and c. c. . appel signifieth an accusation ; and therefore to appeal a man is as much as to accuse , and in ancient books he that doth appeal a man is called accusator , vide ed. . articuli cleri , cap. . that i knew no reason why in those tumbling times of r. . ( which caused this statute , for the statute-roll is comant ad autermant este us en temps la darren roy , r. . ) they should proceed by way of appeal , but because they were then allowed at the suit of the party , to accuse any other of treason , but at the king's suit there ought to be an indictment , and an indictment could not be found but by jury . that in all other cases , an appeal was to be brought by the party concerned , the wife or heir , or party robbed , &c. but in case of treason , any man may appeal another , and therefore in all reason it must be understood of an accusation , and any man might accuse another of treason ; and if it can be proved by witnesses , it must not be tryed by battle , as other appeals may . i concluded that the h. . no. . this statute , the h. . cap. . is recited , and desired it should be duely kept and put in execution , which was granted , that stamford . see pl. cor. . . agree that appeals of high-treasons were not commonly used to be sued in parliament , till the h. . cap. . since which time this manner of appeal hath gone out of use ; and i said , i had searched many presidents , and tho' of late , there may be a president ( as it was of the earl of bristols father against the duke of buckingham , of some kind of impeachment ) yet i did confidently believe there was not since that statute , h. . cap. . any one president of such an impeachment at the party-suit whereupon there was any indictment : in truth in the earl of bristol's case , the commons's house did impeach the duke of treason , and so the earl of bristol's impeachment proceeded not . for the seeond point , that there was no treason in the charge , tho' the matters in it are alledged to be traiterously done . i said we had perused each article seriatim , and we had found no treason in them , the great charge , which is endeavoured to be proved by many particulars , was , that he did traiterously , and maliciously , to bring the king into contempt , and with an intent to alien the peoples affections from him , say , &c. such and such words , &c. and so it runs on , that in pursuance of the traiterous intent , &c. he did , &c. and that in farther pursuance of the said traiterous design , &c. and in like manner was most of the articels upon which the characters of treason seemed to be fixed . i said that it is a transcendant misprision or offence to endeavour to bring the king into contempt , or to endeavour to alienate the peoples affections from him , but yet it was not treason . this statute , car. . cap. . makes treason during the king's life : but if a man calls the king heretick , or papist , or that he endeavours to introduce popery , ( which is more in express terms than the article of that kind insinuates ) or by words , preaching , prayer , to stir up the people to hatred or dislike of the person of his majesty , or the established government ; the penalty is only disability to enjoy any place ecclesiastical , civil , or military , and subject to such penalties as by the common-law or statute of this realm may be inflicted in such case , ( which is fine and ransom , with imprisonment ) and it limits a time and manner of prosecution . there was an objection made yesterday upon the e. . that this being in parliament , the king and parliament had power to declare treason , and then we ought to have delivered our opinions with a qualification , unless it be declared treason by parliament where this charge is depending ; to this i answer'd . . 't is not treason in praesenti , and if such a declaration should be non constat , whether it would relate to the time past ? secondly , that i conceived that the statute as touching that declaratory power , extended but to such cases as were clearly felony , as single acts , if not treason . ( the words being ) whether it be treason or other felony ; but in respect of the doubts of escheats , which , if treason , belonged to the king , if felony , to the lords of the fee , it was left to the parliament . i did not say we resolved the point . thirdly , that admitting the declaratory power did extend to other cases than such as were before the judges , and was not taken away by m. cap. or any other statute , yet i read my lord cooks opinion at large , pl. cor. fol. . that this declaration must be by the king , lords and commons , and by any two of them alone ; and we were now in a judicial way before the house of peers only ; and i did affirm as clear law , that by this judicial way no treason could be declared nor adjudged , but as were expresly within the letter of the e. . and said , that statute e. . was a second magna charta , and that their ancestors thought it their greatest security to narrow , and not to enlarge treason , and cited h. . cap. . to which in the parliament roll is added rot. no. . ( it coming of the king's free-grace ) that the lords did much rejoyce and humbly thank the king : and i read the statute m. cap. . that the now earl of bristol in my lord of sraffords case , was the great assertor of the law against constructive and accumulativë treason , which if admitted , their lordships could better suggest unto themselves , than i exprest , how great a door they would let open to other inconveniencies and mischiefs to the peerage . i concluded with reading the act , car. . for reversing the attainder of the earl of strafford ; the first part whereof i read to them , wherein is expressed , that they who condemned him , did purposely make an act of parliament to condemn him upon an accumulative treason , none of the pretended crimes being treason a-part , and so could not be in the whole , if they had been proved . after i had spoken to this effect , the earl of bristol seemed to acquiesce , insomuch as concerned our opinions as the case was delivered to us , but it being to be put to the question , whether the lords did concur with the judges opinions , and himself being concerned in the illative , that therefore the charge was illegal and irregular ; yet not being intended by him , as he said , as a charge , but an information he desired ( tho' as the case was put to us , it was a good inference ) that the voting of that might be spared till it was resolved by the lords whether he delivered it in as a charge , or only as an information for the matter of the charge if it should be thought fit for their lordships to proceed in it : after some debate upon the question , the lords resolved the same day according to our opinions . first , that a charge of high-treason cannot by the laws and statutes of this realm be originally exhibited by one peer against another , unto the house of peers . secondly , that in these articles , if the matters alledged in them were admitted to be true , there is no treason in them , and because the lords unanimously concurred in them , ( my lord of bristol . freely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any other ) it was by order entred , that these votes were nemine con 〈…〉 note , that in judge hattons reports , fol. the resolution of the judges is expressed to be , that a peer cannot be impeached but by indictment , and mr. rushworth in his collections , fol. . expresses such an opinion to be delivered by the judges in or car. but upon search it was found to be entred in the journal of parliament of that time , but it was cautions referring to the common-law only . but that , for proceedings in parlitament , did not belong to them to determine , or to that effect ; but no mention of h. . cap. . it hath been credibly reported that some of the judges in my lord of strafford's case , being asked some questions , did with the like caution deliver their opinions , and did speak with reservaions , ( as the case is put ) tho' they upon hearing , did know the case mis-put ; which , after , troubled the conscience of one of them , ( ut audivi ) being a grave learned man. vide peacocks case , cook fol. but we , having the case referred to us in parliament upon articles exhibited in parliament , did resolve to deliver our opinions without any such reservation ; and the act of h. . being exprest against appeals in parliament , ( and of acts of parliaments after they are once made , none under the king , and without him are interpreters but the judges . see kings answer printed , in the old print of car. . at the end of the petition . ) and therefore did deliver these opinions which i conceive of great benefit to the lords themselves , and a just ground for farther enquiry to be made , whether such impeachments may be in the house of peers for other misdemeanours , without the king's leave , or being exhibited by his attorney . and secondly to take into consideration the validity of impeachments of treason by the house of commons , notwithstanding the late presidents which yet ended in a bill , and so in the legislative , not judiciary way . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e * d. buck. * of strafford . the arraignment, tryal, conviction and condemnation of henry harrison, gent. for the barbarous murther of andrew clenche, of brownelowe-street, in the parish of st. andrew's holborne, in the county of middlesex, doctor of physick at the sessions of the goal-delivery of newgate, holden for the city of london, at justice-hall in the old-baily, on the th, th, and th days of april, , in the fourth year of their majesties reign : and also the examination of the said henry harrison, taken the th day of january, , before the right honourable sir john holt, knight, lord chief justice of their majesties court of king's and queen's bench at westminster : to which is also added, the tryal of john cole, for the murther of the said doctor clenche. harrison, henry, d. , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the arraignment, tryal, conviction and condemnation of henry harrison, gent. for the barbarous murther of andrew clenche, of brownelowe-street, in the parish of st. andrew's holborne, in the county of middlesex, doctor of physick at the sessions of the goal-delivery of newgate, holden for the city of london, at justice-hall in the old-baily, on the th, th, and th days of april, , in the fourth year of their majesties reign : and also the examination of the said henry harrison, taken the th day of january, , before the right honourable sir john holt, knight, lord chief justice of their majesties court of king's and queen's bench at westminster : to which is also added, the tryal of john cole, for the murther of the said doctor clenche. harrison, henry, d. , defendant. cole, john, plumber, defendant. [ ], p. printed by thomas braddyll, and are to be sold by william battersby ..., and r. baldwin ..., london : . added t.p. on p. [ ]: the tryal of john cole, for the murther of dr. andrew clenche, . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng clench, andrew, d. . harrison, henry, d. . cole, john, -- plummer. trials (murder) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion i do appoint william battersby and thomas braddyll to print the several trials of henry harrison , gent. and john cole , for the murther of dr. andrew clenche , and also the examination of the said henry harrison taken before the lord chief justice holt , concerning the said murther ; together with a preface to the said trials : and that no other do presume to print the same . london , october . . tho. stamp , mayor . the arraignment , tryal , conviction and condemnation of henry harrison , gent. for the barbarous murther of andrew clenche , of brownlowe-street , in the parish of st. andrew's holborne , in the county of middlesex , doctor of physick . at the sessions of goal-delivery of newgate , holden for the city of london , at justice-hall in the old-baily , on the th , th , and th , days of april , . in the fourth year of their majesties reign : and also the examination of the said henry harrison , taken the th , day of january , . before the right honourable sir john holt , knight , lord chief justice of their majesties court of king's and queens bench at westminster . to which is also added , the tryal of john cole , for the murther of the said doctor clenche . london , printed by thomas braddyll , and are to be sold by william battersby at thavies-inn-gate , and r. baldwin near the oxford-arms in warwick-lane , mdcxcii . to the reader . the murther of doctor andrew clenche ( from the manner of it ) did very much disturb the thoughts of many m●n . but the evidence against henry harrison , gent. at his tryal for that murther , was so full and satisfactory to all that heard it , that it was then believed there was not any doubt left of his being one of the actors of that murther . but there having been some endeavours since by the accusation of one john cole , and others , to make the said henry harrison appear innocent , and to arraign the justice of the kingdom . it is therefore thought necessary to publish both the trials of the said henry harrison and john cole , for the satisfaction of all persons , and in hopes also , that it may be a means of as happy a discovery of the managers of that accusation , as there was by great providence of one of the actors of that secret and cruel murther . the arraignment , tryal , conviction and condemnation of henry harrison , gent. for the murther of dr. andrew clenche . die mercurii sexto die aprilis , anno regni domini gulielmi & dominoe marioe regis & reginoe , anglioe , &c. quarto . judges present lord chief-justice holt , lord chief-baron atkins , mr justice nevil . the keeper of the prison of newgate did , according to order of the court being then sate , bring up the body of henry harrison , gent. to the sessions-house in the old-baily , london , who being at the bar , was arraigned upon an indictment of felony and murther , found that day by the grand-jury for the city of london , in manner following : clerk of arraignment . henry harrison , hold up thy hand [ which he did ] you stand indicted by the name of henry harrison , late of london , gent. for that you not having the fear of god before your eyes , but being mov'd and seduc'd by the instigation of the devil , the fourth day of january , in the third year of the reign of our sovereign lord and lady , king william and queen mary , of england , &c. about eleven of the clock in the night of the same day , with force and arms , &c. at london , viz. in the parish of st peter cornhill , in the ward of limestreet in london aforesaid , being in a certain coach with one andrew clenche doctor of physick , and a certain man yet unknown , in and upon the said andrew clenche in the peace of god , and of our sovereign lord and lady the king and queen , then and there being violently , feloniously and of your malice before-thought , did make an assault . and that you the said henry harrison , with the help and assistance of the said man unknown , with a pocket handkerchief with a coal in the same , being put , of the value of two pence , about the neck of him the said andrew clenche , then and there feloniously , voluntarily and of your malice before-thought did put , fasten and bind ; and that you the said henry harrison with the said handkerchief with the coal aforesaid in it , by you the said henry harrison with the help and assistance of the aforesaid man unknown about the neck of the said andrew clenche then as aforesaid , put , fastened and bound him the said andrew clenche then and there with force and arms , &c. feloniously , voluntarily and of your malice before-thought did choak and strangle , by reason of which choaking and strangling of the said andrew clenche by you the said henry harrison , with the handkerchief aforesaid , with the coal as aforesaid put in it , he the said andrew clenche instantly died : so that you the said henry harrison with the help and assistance of the said man unknown , him the said andrew clenche the said fourth day of january in the year aforesaid at the parish and wa●d aforesaid in manner and form aforesaid , feloniously , voluntarily and of your malice before-thought did kill and murther against the peace of our sovereign lord and lady the king and queen now , their crown and dignity . how say you , henry harrison , are you guilty of this felony and murther whereof you stand indicted , or not guilty ? mr harrison . not guilty in thought , word not deed. cl. of ar. culpriest , how will you be tryed ? mr harrison . by god and my country . cl. of ar. god send you a good deliverance . then the said mr harrison was taken away from the bar by the keeper of newgate . and afterwards the same day , about eleven of the clock in the morning , the said henry harrison was brought to the bar , and he desired the court that he might then be tryed , which was granted , and those persons who were return'd upon the jury were called over twice , and their appearances recorded . cl. of ar. you henry harrison , these men that you shall hear call'd , and personally do appear , are to pass between our sovereign lord and lady the king and queen , and you upon tryal of your life and death ; if therefore you will challenge them , or any of them , your time is to challenge them as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . l. c. j. holt. mr harrison , you may challenge such of the jury as you shall think fit before they be sworn . then the jury was called and sworn , and then were counted ; and the twelve sworn were these whose names follow : jurors . john roll nathaniel houlton michael pindar james hulbert joseph howe richard chewne john lawford nicholas wildeboare robert williamson william merriden thomas simpson thomas pakeman sworn . then proclamation for information and evidence was made as is usual . mr harrison , my lord , i have made no challenges , because i do believe the jury to be honest men. cl. of arr. — henry harrison , hold up thy hand . [ which he did . ] gentlemen , you that are sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause . he stands indicted by the name of henry harrison , late of london , gent. &c. [ he reads the indictment . ] upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto hath pleaded not guilty ; and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and his country , which country you are . your charge is to enquire whether he be guilty of this felony and murther wherof he stands indicted , or not guilty : if you find that he is guilty , you are to enquire what goods or chattels , lands or tenements he had at the time of the felony and murther committed , or at any time since . if you find him not guilty , you are to enquire whether he sled for it . if you find that he fled for it , you are to enquire of his goods and chattels , as if you found him guilty . if you find him not guilty , nor that he did fly for it , you are to say so , and no more ; and hear your evidence . mr darnell , — my lords , mr harrison's agents or friends have since the last sessions , made or conveyed away a young man that was a principal evidence against him . l. c. j. that is a very ill thing , and if it be prov'd , it will no way conduce to mr harrison's advantage . mr harrison , my lord , i know nothing of it . but my lord , one of my witnesses that would have been material for me , is lately dead , sir hungerford's son. mr darnell , may it please your lordships , and you gentlemen that are sworn , i am of councel for the king and queen against the prisoner at the barr , who stands indicted for the murther of dr andrew clenche , which was as barbarous a murther as any that hath been committed in this age. and considering it was done in the dark , i think there will be given as clear an evidence of it against mr harrison the prisoner , as can be expected . and that it was upon this occasion one mrs vanwicke a widdow ( between whom and mr harrison there was a great kindness ) prevailed with dr clenche , to whom she was indebted twenty pounds , to lend her so much more as would make it up one hundred and twenty pounds , and to take a mortgage of a house of hers in buckingham court near charing-cross for his security ; and mr harrison was present with mrs vanwicke at the lending of the rest of the money , and executing of the mortgage , as he was wont to he at the management of her affairs ; but when the time came that it was to be repaid , the dr could not get his money , and mrs vanwicke having but an estare for life in the house , and having long delayed the doctor , he brought an ejectment for the recovering of the house , upon which the prisoner came to dr clenche , and abused him with very scurrilous language , and his passion growing higher , he laid his hand upon his ●●ord , and would have drawn it , and if it had not been for one mr johnson , 't was thought he would have kill'd the doctor at that time ; so that the doctor desired mr johnson to take the business upon himself , and to act in his own name , he was so much afraid of him . and it will be proved further to you , that at another time the prisoner said , that dr clenche was a rogue and a villain , and deserved to have his throat cut . and sometime after this mrs vanwicke would have borrowed some more money of the doctor , but he refused to lend it her , whereupon she acquainting the prisoner with it , he said , leave him to me ( madam ) i 'll warrant you , i 'll manage him , he is a rogue , and deserves to have his throat cut . and afterwards about st thomas's day last , the prisoner went to mrs west the tennant , who dwelt in the house mortgaged to dr clenche , and desired of mrs west to have some money for mrs vanwicke , and said it should be discounted in part of the then next christmas rent . but the said mrs west refused to pay him any , telling him that she and her husband were forbid by dr clenche and the ground land-lord , to pay any more to mrs vanwicke , and thereupon the prisoner expressed his further malice against the doctor , and said he is a great rogue , and a villain , and deserves to have his throat cut , and will not dye in his bed. and , gentlemen , soon after the prisoner began to put his malicious design against the doctor in execution , and the method he took was first to change his lodgings , for on the day before christmas eve last , he took new lodgings at one mr garways in thread-needle-street , near the old exchange , attended by a foot-boy , pretending himself to be a parliament man , and that he was just then come out of the country , and lay in his lodging there every night , until the first day of january following , but lay out that night , and the two next nights following . and whilst he lodged at this mr garways this matter hapned , which does conduce somewhat towards the discovery of this murther . one evening the prisoner being in his chamber there , and one mrs jackson , the daughter of mrs garway , making a fire for him , he did take out his handkerchief , and held it before the fire to dry it , which she took great notice of , because it was course and dirty , and not sit for his quality ( as she thought ) it being made of ordinary indian stuff , like her mothers maids apron . and , gentlemen , this very handkerchief was the same with which the murther was committed , and this mrs jackson will swear it to be the same , for it is a very remarkable one , and it will be produced to you . and we shall shew you further , that on the third day of january ( being the day before this murther was committed ) he caused a sham letter to be left for him at his lodgings at this mr garway's , as written from a friend of his that was sick in the country , earnesly pressing him to come quickly down to him : and we shall prove that the very same evening he being with mrs vanwick in woodstreet-counter , did again threaten dr clenche , and said that he was a rogue , and he would have his blood. and upon the fourth day of january last he again changed his lodgings , and took new ones at one mr jones's a cane-chair-maker in st paul's church-yard , and there he pretended himself to be a country gentleman , just then come out of cumberland , and brought in a portmanteau trunk thither . and the same day he sent a letter to mrs garway where he had lodged before , acquainting her that he was gone out of town for a week or ten days . and , to give you farther satisfaction , we shall prove that upon the same fourth day of january in the night of which this unfortunate gentleman was murther'd , the prisoner was at one mr humston's lodgings at the golden-key in fleetstreet over against fetter-lane end , at near nine of the clock at night , and being ask'd by mr humston to stay and sup with him , he said he could not , for he had been about earnest business that day , which was to be done that night , and that a gentleman stayed for him in the street to go with him about it , and so he went away . and soon after , about nine of the clock the same night , two men standing in fleetstreet at fetterlane end , call'd for a coach , and ask'd the coachman if he knew dr clenche who dwelt in brownlow-street in holborn ; and the coachman reply'd , he did know the street , but not the doctor , whereupon they went into the coach , and ordered him to live to the end of brownlowstreet , and when they came thither , one of them called to the coachman and bad him go to dr clenche's and tell him , that two gentlemen in a coach at the end of the street desired him to go with them to a patient that was very sick , which the coachman did . and he found the doctor in his night-gown and slippers , and just a going to bed ; but he immediately dressed himself , and went to them into the coach. and it fell out very happily for the further discovery of this murther , that while this coach stood at the end of brownlowstreet , a young gentlewoman standing at her own door near it , and fancying that while the coachman went on the errand , the gentlemen would ship out of the coach ( i think they call it bilking ) she watch'd them and a lamp that lighted cross holborn over against brownlowstreet end , and another about the middle of brownlowstreet , gave such a light into the coach , that she plainly saw one of the men that sate in it , and see him look out of the coach after the coachman , and heard him swear at the coachman , because he made no more haste in going to the doctor 's house , and she is very certain that the prisoner at the bar is the same person that look'd out of the coach , and that did swear ●t the coachman , and is more confident of it from the remarkablenes● of his voice . for she hearing of this murther and remembring these circumstances , she went to newgate to see the prisoner , and hearing his voice in another room , before she saw him ; she declar'd to the persons that were then with her , that the voice she then heard was the persons voice that she saw look out of the coach , and that did swear at the coachman ; and afterwards when she came into the room where the prisoner was , though with several other men , she pointed to him as the person , and she hearing him then speak again , declared to the persons with her , that both by his voice and by his countenance she knew him to be the same man. and , my lord , after those gentlemen had gotten the doctor into the coach , one of them called to the coachman , and bad him make haste and drive them to leaden-hall market , and when they were come within holbourn-bars one of them called to the coachman and bad him drive faster ; whereupon the coachman drove them very fast through holbourn to leaden-hall-market-gate , and when he came there , one of them bad him drive to the pye without aldgate ( before which time , without doubt , the murther was committed upon the doctor , for his hat was found next morning in holborn near fetter-lane end , but the driving so long about after is supposed to be done least the doctor might recover ) and when they were come without aldgate , one of them ordered the coachman to ask there for one hunt a chyrurgeon ; which he did , and being answered that no such person was there , he ordered the coachman to drive back again to leaden-hall , and when they came there , one of them called the coachman and gave him three shillings and six pence , and bad him go into the market there to one hunt's a poulterer , and buy them a couple of fowls , but the coachman could not find any hunt a poulterer , but however he bought a couple of fowls for three shillings , and when he came with them to his coach , the two gentlemen were gone and the doctor left in the coach murther'd with a handkerchief tied fast about his neck with a coal in it ( which will be proved to be the prisoners handkerchief . ) besides there was a boy in the street there who took notice of the coachman 's being sent of an errand , and saw the two persons come out of the coach in great haste , and she going towards the coach before they went out of it , one of them did swear at him to be gone , and of him the boy took most notice , and was as possitive as any man can be to the person of one that he never saw before , that the prisoner now at the bar was one of them , and was the person that did then swear at him . but this witness is spirited away and cannot be heard of , although he hath been described in the gazettee , and diligent search and inquiry has been made after him . but we have his examination upon oath before the coroner ; and we must submit to the court how far that shall be admitted as evidence . gentlemen , we will call our witnesses , and if they prove all this matter , i believe every man here will be satisfied that the prisoner at the bar is guilty of this base murther . mr darnell . pray call and swear mr george wigmore . [ who was sworn with others . mr darnell , pray mr wigmore tell my lord and the jury what you know of any money that was lent by dr clenche , and to whom . mr george wigmore , may it please your lordship , there was a draught of a mortgage from mrs vanwicke to dr clenche , made by a gentleman of grays-inn for the sum of one hundred and twenty pounds , and i ingross'd it ; and i paid by the doctors order above threescore pounds of the money , and the rest of it was satisfied before ; and upon sealing of the mortgage for the money , mr harrison , and one mr rowe fell out about their dividend of the money , and called one another ill names ; and mr rowe produced a bill of what he had done and laid out for coach-hire and other things for mrs vanwicke , and mr harrison and he had high words about it , and called one another rogues ; so i told them if they could not agree , i would put the money up again , and carry it home ; but mrs vanwicke and they did agree at last , and sealed the mortgage , and i paid the money ; and mrs vanwicke and mr harrison took out twenty pounds of the money , and paid it to mr rowe ; and after mr rowe was gone , they desired me to go with them to the young devil tavern , and they both used hard expressions there against mr rowe . l. c. j. who was the mortgage made to ? mr wigmore , my lord , it was made to dr clenche for one hundred and twenty pounds . mr harrison , pray sir will you tell the jury how much money the gentlewoman had , and if mr. row had not stept between me and her , i had not been in question . mr wigmore , mrs vanwicke acknowledged that the money i paid her , made up one hundred and twenty pounds . l. c. j. what did you hear the prisoner say against dr clenche ? mr wigmore , my lord , i do say that he was very troublesome to the doctor . l. c. j. were there any reproaches cast upon the doctor at that time ? mr wigmore , no my lord , only upon rowe , because he was a trustee . mr darnell , did you hear him say any thing against the doctor ? mr wigmore , indeed i cannot particularly say . l. c. j. he is upon his oath , and he is sensible and understands the question . mr. wigmore . he did say very ugly words , and when i met him afterwards in the high-way , he was very hussy , and i thought he would have drawn his sword upon me . l. c. j. what did he say of the doctor ? mr wigmore , i cannot say particularly what he said . l. c. j. stand down . mr darnell , call mr thomas johnson [ who was sworn and stood up . ] mr darnell , sir , pray give the court an account what you know concerning this matter . mr johnson , my lord , i believe i shall say nothing that mr harrison will contradict , i was attorny for dr clenche between him and mrs vanwicke , and i sued mr rowe that was bound with mrs vanwicke in a bond to perform covenants for re-payment of the money lent her by dr clenche upon mortgage ; and i advised the dr. and told him , don't let us trouble the tenant , but let us take rowe first ; and i sued rowe , and had him arrested , and after some time , i saw that the mortgage must do our business , for rowe could not pay the money , whereupon i caused a declaration in ejectment to be delivered against mrs vanwick's tenant of the house mortgaged by her to dr clenche , and then mr harrison came to me , and he expressed himself against the dr after a strange rate , and laid his hand upon his sword , so my lord i said to him , what a fool do you make of your self ? must none go to law , but they must ask you leave , i suppose mr harrison cannot deny this . then mr harrison preferred a petition to the lords commissioners of the great seal for mrs vanwicke , and thereby suggested to their lordships that she was wronged in the purchase and in the mortgage money , and that twenty pounds of it was a former debt of her husbands ; and he finding she could have no relief before them without payment of the mortgage money , he grew troublesome ; yet says i , mr harrison , what she hath done , i cannot help , but if she would pay the rest , i told him i would abate her twenty pounds , and the interest money also . mr darnell , pray sir , did the dr desire you to act for him in your own name , because he had no mind to meet with mrs vanwicke and the prisoner ? mr johnson , the doctor did find himself too deeply concerned with them , and he did not care to have to do with them , whether it was that he was afraid of his life , i cannot say ; but he said to me , pray sir , go on , i will put all into your hands , and i will trust you with all the affair , and let them come to you , and not trouble me , own it to be your own ; and i told him , i feared none of them , and the doctor gave out that he had made over all to me , although he had not , and upon this i fear , comes this unfortunate business , and the doctor 's lady must look after it her self . l. c. j. what did he say when he had laid his hand upon his sword in your study . mr johnson , he said the dr. had cheated the widdow , and he said that he would be revenged on him , as near as my memory will serve me , i suppose he will not deny it ; whether he did this in a passion , or to affright the doctor or no , i cannot tell . l. c. j. was that before you offered to abate the twenty pounds ? mr johnson , it was before i offered to abate it . mr harrison . how long was it before dr clenche was murthred ? mr johnson , i think it was about a fortnight or three weeks , or a little more . mr harrison . i never threatned the doctor in my life , but i said rowe had been a villain and a cheat , and he and rowe were the men , and i shall make it appear that the dr never wrong'd the widdow . l. c. j. how came rowe to be intrusted or concerned with the money ? mr johnson , my lord , mr cornelius vandinanker , a merchant , gave a legacy of five hundred pounds to the widdow vanwicke and her children , and mr rowe was a trustee on the purchase , and had by that the management of the affair . mr. darnell . call mr. george howard . ( who being sworn stood up . mr. darnell . mr. howard , give the court an account of what you know concerning the prisoner's threatning dr. clenche . mr. howard . my lord , i was at joe's coffee-house near warwick-house in holborn , some considerable time before dr. clenche was murdred , where mr. harrison used several very virulent expressions against dr. clenche ; amongst others , one was , that he was a rogue and a rascal , and deserved to have his throat cut. mrs. vanwick was then in company , and they both said , that they then came from dr. clenche's . mr. darnell . you are sure he said that dr. clenche deserved to have his throat cut. mr. howard . yes : he said , that dr. clenche deserved to have his throat cut. mr. harrison . who was i talking to ? mr. howard you were talking to mrs. mary sheriff . mr. darnell . call mrs. mary sheriff . ( who was sworn , and stood up . mrs. sheriff . my lord , mrs. vanwick came to my house with mr. harrison , and desired me to go with her to dr. clenche his house ; and when we came there , she desired him to let her have twenty pounds more ; and he said , no. if his house were full of money , he would not lend her any more , so long as she kept mr. harrison company , for he would spend it ; and he advised her to be a gentleman's house-keeper , and he would help her to a place ; and told her withal , that she owed him , one hundred and twenty pounds , for which he would take one hundred pounds ; and we left mr. harrison behind us at my house , and did not take him with us , because we were afraid he might anger the doctor , and fall out with him ; so when we came back , mr. harrison asked mrs. vanwick , what dr. clenche said ; why , says she , he saith , that he will not lend me any more money while i keep you company , for you will spend it , and that i must go to service . to service ! said mr. harrison . god damne him , have a person of your quality go to service ! he deserves to have his throat cut ; let me alone ; i 'll manage him as never any man was managed , and so away they went together . mr. harrison . did not you say , that as you hop'd to be sav'd , that i was innocent of the thing ? l. c. j. she does not accuse you of doing the fact , but gives an account of some expressions that passed from you . mrs. sheriff . you were always talking against dr clenche , and you said , god damne him , he was an old rogue , and that mrs. vanwick was almost starved to death . mr. harrison . rowe , rowe , i meant , my lord. ( the prisoner being then in a passion . l. c. j. mr. harrison , do not fall into a passion , it may be more to your advantage , in the making your defence , if you keep your temper . l. c. j. witness , what were the words that he said against doctor clenche ? mrs. sheriff . why , he speaking of doctor clenche , said to mrs. vanwick , god damne him , would he have a person of your quality go to service ! he deserves to have his throat cut ; well , madam , says he , be contented i 'll manage him as never any man was managed . mr. harrison . what had you for your swearing ? coroner for the king and queen . witness , he asketh you , if you had any thing for your swearing against him . mrs. sheriff . no , i had nothing , neither have i need of any thing ; i had not so much as my coach-hire . mr. darnell . call mrs. elizabeth west . mr. darnell . mistress , give an account to the court , what you know about the prisoner's coming to demand rent of you , and what passed . mrs. west . may it please your lordship , this gentleman , the prisoner , came to me two or three days before st. thomas his day last , and desired me to give him some rent for mrs. vanwick , and i told him , i had no power to pay him , because i was warned by dr. clenche , to pay no more ; says he to me again , dr. clenche , and rowe , are great rogues and great villains . sir , says i to him again , i believe that the doctor is a very honest man : no , says mr. harrison , he is a great villain , and he will never die in his bed ; which of them he meant , mr. rowe or dr. clenche , i cannot tell . and mrs. vanwick , and mr. harrison , a little time before that , pressed me , to let them have some shop goods in part of her rent , to grow due , and she made great complaint , that her children were ready to starve , and i then told them , that mr. johnson had fore-warned me to pay any more rent to mrs. vanwick , and if i did , i should pay it again ; and therefore i would not pay any more rent to her , or deliver her any goods , until she had agreed with mr. johnson , and then mr. harrison said , that mr. johnson was a great villain , and a great rogue , and that they had all combined together to cheat the widow . and mr. johnson being at my house , mrs. vanwick fell upon him in a great rage , and said , she would tear his throat out , and laid hold on him , and mr. johnson got from her , and went away in great haste . and the last time i saw dr. clenche , i pressed very hard upon him , to let mrs. vanwick have more money ; and the doctor said , that she would never do any good with it , for she spent it all upon mr. harrison ; and i wished him to let her have twenty pounds more , and he said , that he advised her to go to service , and that he had wished her to a service of twenty pounds a year , and she abused him for it . l. c. j. what cloathes had the prisoner on ? mrs. west . my lord , he had an old thread-hare black cloth suit of cloaths on , which looked very shabby . mr. harrison . what religion are you of , mistress ? mrs. west . i was born and bred up a protestant . mr. harrison . i believe you are a papist , and will swear any thing , you keep roman catholicks in your house , they have murdred dr. clenche , for ought i know . l. c. j. did mr. harrison ever lodge in your house ? mrs. west . no , my lord , i have none but persons of quality lodge in my house , and they belong to the present government . mr. darnell . call anne watson . ( who was sworn . mr. darnell . pray , tell my lord and the jury , what you know of mr. harrison's taking of lodgings at mr. garway's house , and when it was . anne watson . he came about six a clock at night , the day before christmas-eve last , to my master's , mr. garway's house , and told us , that he was newly come out of the country ; and lodged there that night , and so he did until , and upon the last night of december ; and on the first day of january , he went out , and staid out that night ; and on the sunday , the third of january last , at night , he came again with a person with him , and fetch'd away his portmanteau-trunk and things , and paid for his lodging ; and in his absence , there was a letter left for him , which i gave him , and he said , it came out of the country , and that he had a friend sick in the country , and did intend to go down to see him , being one from whom he expected a legacy , and he left that letter on the kitchin window , and on the monday after , being the fourth day of january last , he sent a letter , signifying he was gone out of town . ( then the letter was produced , marked with the penny-post mark. mr. darnell . who knows mr. harrison's hand ? mr. johnson , take that letter and look upon it , and tell the court if you think it to be mr. harrison's hand . ( mr. johnson takes the letter and looks upon it . mr. johnson , my lord , i believe it to be mr. harrison's hand . mr. darnell . my lord , i desire that the letter may be read . l. c. j. mr. clerk of the peace , read the letter ; and the subscription first . ( clerk of the peace reads . to mrs. garraway , at the hand and apple in thread-needle-street , near the royal-exchange , present . mrs. garraway , i am sorry it should be such an inconveniency to you , as it is . i have left with your maid , three half crowns , and if it is not enough , i will give you more . i am gone out of town , for a week or ten days , and as soon as i come again , i will wait on you , which is all till i see you , from your friend , and servant , h. harrison . th . of jan. . mr. darnell . call mr. henry garway and his wife . ( who were called and sworn . mr. darnell . mrs. garway , take that letter , and look upon it , and tell the court , when you received it . ( then she takes the letter which was produced and read as before , and looked upon it . mrs. garway . my lord , i received this letter on monday the th . day of january last . l. c. j. watson , when did he leave the lodgings , say you ? anne watson . he went away the first of january last , about nine a clock in the morning , and returned not that night , but on the second of january last , he was at my mistress's shop again ( as my mistress told me ) and he came about five a clock on the next sunday night ( being the third of january last ) with a person with him , to my master's house , and fetch'd away his portmanteau-trunk and things , and left three half crowns with me for his lodgings , which i gave to my mistress . mr. darnell . call mrs. catharine jackson . ( who was sworn . mr. darnell . pray , tell , my lord and the jury , what you know concerning mr. harrison's coming to lodge at mr. garway's , and when he went away , and what you know of any handkerchief he had . mrs. jackson . he came on the day before christmas-eve , to lodge at my father's , mr. garway's house , and lodged there several nights , and went away the third of january at night , with his things , but was absent some nights between his coming and going away , and whilest he lodged there , i observed a handkerchief in his hand , as i was making a fire for him in his chamber , and the more , because he had said , he was a parliament-man , and i thought it more like a sea-man's handkerchief , than a parliament-man's , and our maid had an apron of the same kind of stuff . ( then the handkerchief was produced in court , by the coroner , and the coal in it , wherewith dr. clenche was strangled . mr. darnell . mrs. jackson , i desire that you would look upon that handkerchief , and tell the court what you know of it . mrs. jackson . this is the handkerchief that i saw mr. harrison hold to the fire , when i was making of it in his chamber , or very like that handkerchief , for i observed it to be very like my mother's maid's apron . ( then a piece of the maid's apron was produced , and they being compared , were very like . mr. harrison . did you hear me say , i was a parliament man. mrs. jackson . yes , i heard you say so . mr. harrison . perhaps , you might hear my boy say so . mrs. jackson . your foot-boy said , you were a parliament man : and you said so your self . mr. darnell . call mr. garway again . ( he appeared . mr. darnell . where is the letter you received from mr. harrison , since he was a prisoner . l. c. j. what do you say , about a letter that came to your house from the prisoner . mr. garway . my lord , i had this letter from him last saturday , directed to my wife , and i believe it to be his hand . ( he produceth the letter . mr. darnell . my lord , i desire that the letter may be read . l. c. j. read the letter , mr. tanner . ( cl. peace reads . to mrs. garraway , at the hand and apple in thread-needle-street , behind the royal exchange , present . mrs. garraway , i was informed yesterday , that you are to appear against me , at next sessions . i am sure , you never heard me mention dr. clenche , in all your life ; and if you do , it will look like malice . my lord chief justice is sensible of the wrong done me . this is all from your servant , hen. harrison . l. c. j. mr. harrison , did i ever tell you , that i was sensible of it ? to which he made no reply . mr. darnell . call mr. john cartwright . who was sworn . mr. darnell . i would have you declare , what you heard mr. harrison say , concerning dr. clenche . mr. cartwright . my lord , upon the third of january last , mr. harrison came to woodstreet compter ; it was on a sunday in the evening , about five or six a clock , i was standing in the gate , and i let him in . assoon as he came in , he asked , how poor mrs. vanwick did ; says he , she hath been wronged of five hundred pounds within this months : then i let him into the court , and he went into her chamber ; and about half an hour after , i was sent by my master , to require some chamber-rent of mrs. vanwick , and i heard mr. harrison and she at high words , and in a great passion , and i heard mr. harrison swear , god damn his blood , he would be reveng'd of that rogue , and named clenche or winch , i cannot tell which , and he would have his blood , e're it were long . mr. harrison . where were you ? j. cartwright . my lord , i was at the chamber-door , and there was no body on that side of the house , but mr. harrison , mrs. vanwick , and my self . mr. darnell . call , mrs. mary jones . ( who was sworn . mr. darnell . now , my lord , i will call one to prove , where he took a new lodging , the very day the murther was done . l. c. j. cartwright , was that in mrs. vanwick's chamber that you heard him swear so ? mr. cartwright . yes , my lord , in her chamber , and none was with her , but he only . mr. darnell . you , the last witness mrs. jones , when did mr. harrison come to lodge at your house ? mrs. jones . he came on a monday . mr. darnell . what day of the month was it ? mrs. jones . i can't tell what day of the month , for i did not set it down . mr. darnell . was it the monday before he was taken ? mrs jones . yes , it was the monday before . mr. darnell . whence did he pretend to come ? mrs. jones . he said , that he was come out of the country , and had formerly lodged in fleet-street , and that where he had lodged formerly , they had left off house-keeping , and were gone into the country . l. c. j. where is your house ? mrs. jones . in paul's church-yard , at the sign of the golden ball. mr. darnell . call james howseman . ( who was sworn . mr. darnell . do you tell what you know , about mr. harrison's being at mr. jones house . james howseman . my lord , he came in about eight a clock at night , and brought a porter with him , and a portmanteau trunk ; and after that , the porter went out a little before him , and then he followed him , and went out after . mr. darnell . did you hear him say , from whence he came ? james howseman . no , i did not . mr. darnell . call anne evans . who did not appear . mr. darnell . then , call mr. robert humston . who was sworn . mr. darnell . mr. humston , i desire you will give the court an account , of mr. harrison's being at your house , that night dr. clenche was murdered . mr. humston . my lord , i met mr. harrison on monday the th of january last , and he told me , he was going to the compter , to a gentlewoman that was much oppressed , and that he wanted money to get her released ; upon which , i gave him some money , and after some discourse , i desired him to bring home my gown , that i formerly lent him , and seemed angry with him , for that he had several times promised me to bring it home , but had failed therein ; and thereupon he promised , that i should have it that night : and that evening about nine of the clock , he came to my lodgings , and brought home my gown , and when he came , i asked him , if he had gotten mrs. vanwick released : and mr. harrison answered , no. upon which , i blamed him for neglecting an old friend , and mr. harrison excused it ; telling me , that he had met with some persoms upon earnest business which prevented him . and then i asked mr. harrison to stay and sup with me , but he refused it , saying , that he had been about extraordinary business that day , which must be done that night , and that a gentleman stayed in the street for him , and they two were going to do it . l. c. j. where do you live ? and how long stayed he at your house ? mr. humston . i lodged then at the golden key in fleet-street over against fetter-lane end : he came to my lodgings about nine of the clock at night , and stayed there but a little time . l. c. j. what manner of cloaths had he on . mr. humston . my lord , he had a cloak on , but i cannot tell what cloaths he had under it , he brought my gown up under his cloak . mr. darnell . swear esther king. who was sworn . mr. darnell . do you know what time mr. harrison was at mr. humston's lodgings . esther king. it was on monday the fourth day of january last , about nine of the clock at night , as near as i can guess , the shop was shut up , and i let him out . mr. darnell . where was it ? esther king. at the golden key in fleet-street over against fetter-lane end. mr. darnell . what cloaths had he on ? esther king. i cannot tell well , but he had a cloak on , i do not know , what cloaths he had on besides . mr. harrison . was it eight or nine a clock . esther king. it was near nine , as near as i can guess . mr. darnell . swear john sikes the coachman . which was done . mr. darnell . give an account to the court , what you know about carrying two men in your coach , and how you found dr. clenche murdered . john sikes , coachman . my lord , on the th . of january last , being monday , i was at the play-house , and there i took up a man and a woman , and carried them into the city ; so i brought the gentleman back again , to the green dragon tavern in fleet-street ; and then , he said , he would pay me by the hour ; he said , that it was but much about nine a clock . then i left him , and was driving up the street towards the temple , and two men stood in fleet-street about fetter-lane end , and they asked me , if i knew dr. clenche , who dwelt in brownelowe-street in holbourn : i told them , that i did not know dr. clenche , but i knew the street . so they went into my coach , and one of them bad me drive thither , and i did , and stopt at the streets end ; because the gate at the other end was shut , so that i could not turn my coach : and one of them , bad me go and tell the dr. that there were two gentlemen in a coach at the streets end , that would desire him , to go with them , to see one that was not well . the doctor asked me , if i could tell , who they were ? or , who it was , that he was to go to ? i told him , that i could not tell the doctor was in his night-gown and slippers , and he dressed himself : and when he came to the coach , one of them removed from his place , and gave him the hinder-part of the coach ; and told him , that they had a friend , that was not well : and one of them , bad me drive to leaden-hall-market ; and when i came about holborn-bars , one of them called to me , and asked me , why i drove so slowly ? and bad me drive faster ; so i drove fast , and came to leaden-hall . and then one of them , bad me drive to the pye tavern without aldgate , and there ordered me to stop . and when i had stopped there , one of them called to me , and told me , that i need not stir out of my coach-box ; but call to the boy at the tavern , and ask for one hunt a chyrurgeon , which i did do : and when the boy came to me again , he said , there was no such man. then one of them bad me drive back again to leaden-hall ; and in the time i stayed there , and turned my coach , aldgate was shut ; and when i came to the gate , one of them gave six pence to the watch , and the gate was opened , and i drove to leaden-hall gate . and when i came there , i stopped again , and one of them gave me half a crown , and bad me go and buy a fowl of one hunt a poulterer ; but after i had gone a little way from the coach , he called me again , and said , here coachman , you had as good take an other shilling , and buy a couple : so i went , and bought a couple of fowls , but i could find no such poulterer as hunt , so i bought them of another , and i gave three shillings for them . and when i came back to the coach side , i found dr. clenche , ( as i thought ) sitting against the fore-seat , with his head against the cushion : i pull'd him , and cried , master , master , for i thought he had been in drink , but i could not get one word from him ; and then i went to the watch , who were near ; and when they came , we found him strangled with a handcherchief about his neck , and a coal in it placed , just upon his wind-pipe , but the other two men were gone . l. c. j. had one of the two men a cloak on ? j. sikes . i cannot remember that . l. c. j. what kind of habit had he ? had he black cloaths on ? j. sikes . my lord , i cannot tell justly , what cloaths he had . l. j. c. you have heard him speak . what said he ? j. sikes . my lord , he never spoke to me ; it was the other man. mr. harrison . what kind of man was the other ? was he less than i , or taller ? j. sikes . he was taller than you , with his own hair. mr. darnell . can you be positive , that the prisoner at the bar , is one of those two persons . j. sikes . my lord , one of those two persons , had a perriwig on , of a light coloured hair : and i do verily believe , that the prisoner at the bar , is the same person ; i cannot be positive , he is one of them , but as near as i can judge of a man , whom i have seen but once , he is one of them . mr. harrison . my lord , i desire your lordship to observe the time , that he took the two men up , and what time it was that they ran out of the coach. l. c. j. coachman , what time was it , that they left your coach ? j. sikes . about half an hour past ten , and it was about a quarter of an hour past nine , when i took them up . mr. darnell . pray let 's ask the coachman one thing more . coachman , look upon that handcherchief , do you know it , and where did you see it ? the handkerchief was produced by the coroner . j. sikes . i do believe that it is the same handkerchief , that was about dr. clenche's neck , when he was found murdered . l. c. j. call the coachman again . harke you , in what posture did you find dr. clenche , when you came back to your coach ? j. sikes . my lord , he was sat in the bottom of the coach , leaning on one side , with his head against the cushion . l. c. j. was a handkerchief then about his neck . j. sikes . yes , my lord , i untied this handkerchief , and this is the same ; and here is the coal that was lapt in it ▪ it was lapt in the middle of it , and it laid just against the doctor 's wind-pipe . mr. darnell . call mr. rebone and mr. marriot . who were sworn . mr. darnell . mr. rebone , tell what you know , concerning the handkerchief , and how you found the doctor . he takes the handkerchief , and looks on 't . mr. rebone . this handkerchief , was about the doctor 's neck , and the coal in it , and it lay just upon his wind-pipe , when i saw him dead in the coach. the coachman came to mr. marriot's house , and ask'd for a constable , and we went to the coach side , and there we found him laying along ; and we took him , and carried him to the bull — inn , and there he was let blood on the arms , and the chyrurgeon took about half a spoonful of blood out of his right arm ; and he was let blood on the other arm , but that , did but just trickle down , and we could not get him to life again ; and we found a silver ink-horn in his pocket , and that , and the rest of his things , were secured . that is all i can say to the matter . mr. darnell . call mrs. elianor ashbolt . who was sworn . mr. darnell . mrs. pray tell my lord , and the court , what you know of any persons you saw in a coach at browne-lowe-street end , that night dr. clenche was murdered . mrs. ashbolt . may it please your lordship , i went out of an errand for one madam anwell , a gentlewoman , who lodges at my mothers house ; and coming home again , i saw a coach stop at brownelowe-street end , between nine and ten a clock at night , and the coachman went to the side of the coach : and one in the coach , bad him go to dr. clenche's , and tell him , that there were two gentlemen stayed for him in a coach ; and as he went up the street , he went slowly , and looked back two or three times : whereupon , one of the persons leaned out of the coach , and did swear at the coachman to make hast , and i went round the coach , and could discern mr. harrison's face ; and i stayed , and saw dr. clenche go into the coach , and one of them gave his place to the doctor . mr. darnell . why were you so curious , mistress , and what did you observe further ? mrs. ashbolt . because i thought they might give the coach-man a slip . i well observed mr. harrison , but do not know the other man ; there were two lamps burning ; one in brownlowe-street , and the other in holborn , over-against the end of brownlowe-street ; and they lighted quite through the coach , and the men pulled themselves backwards , when they saw me look on them ; it was that night that the doctor was murdered . i went to newgate afterwards , madam clenche , desired me to go and see mr. harrison ; and when i came to newgate , it seems , he was writing letters , so i staid before i went into the room ; and there were two men with me , and mr. harrison was talking very loud , said they to me , who is that speaks now ? why , says i , it is one of the persons that was in the coach when dr. clenche was murdered . l. c. j. who are those two men that were with you ? mrs. ashbolt . one of them , was one mr. jones , a coach-maker in holborn , and the other , was madam clenche's coach-man . l. c. j. did you know the prisoner , when you saw him in newgate , to be one of them that were in the coach ? mrs. ashbolt . yes , i did , i knew him to be the same man , as soon as i saw him , and he changed countenance as soon as he saw me . mr. harrison . my lord , this woman is certainly hired by the villains that are against me . pray , ask her , my lord , why she did not make a discovery sooner . l. c. j. mistress , what say you to that ? mrs. ashbolt . i acquainted madam anwell , what i had seen and observed , and she told madam clenche , after last sessions , and then she desired me to go to newgate , to see mr. harrison , and i went accordingly ; and i would have told it to madam clenche sooner , but my mother was loath i should be concerned about such a thing . mr. darnell . my lord , we have some witnesses who can give your lordship an account , that one of our witnesses whom i mentioned to your lordship before , is spirited , or withdrawn from us , by a gentleman that said , he came to him from the prisoner , and desired him to be kind to the prisoner , which witness is since absent , and not to be found ; his name was andrew bowsell , a youth , and an apprentice to one mr. tims , a shooe-maker . l. c. j. you must prove upon him , that he made him keep away . mr. darnell . call barnabas smith . who was sworn . mr. darnell . give my lord , and the court an account , what you know of this matter . mr. smith . my lord , this andrew bowsell , which the councel for the king , speaks of , was sent to leaden-hall-street , of an errand , to the bull-head ale-house there , and as he was going along , a gentleman met him , and asked him , if he was not an evidence against mr. harrison , and being told by the boy that he was , he desired him to be kind to him , and pull'd out a piece of money , and offered it him , desiring him to be kind to mr. harrison , upon which , the youth replied , that he owed him nothing , and nothing he would take ; then the gentleman told him , that he would come again another time , and send for him near to his master 's ; so the boy said , and told me : and said further , that if he could have gotten him to have gone to the bull-head ale-house , he would have seized him . mr. darnell . what is become of the boy ? mr. smith . truly , we do not know , what is become of him , we never heard of him since the sixth day of march last . mr. darnell . call his master , mr. richard tims . who was sworn . mr. darnell . tell my lord , and the court , what you know of this matter , and what is become of your apprentice , andrew bowsell . mr. tims . my lord , he went away from me on the sixth day of march last , he was enticed away by three souldiers , that night , and on the morrow morning , one of them came and demanded his coats , shirts and neckcloths ; says i to him , who sent you , and who is your captain ? and he answered , why , captain harris ; so he huss'd and said , that if i would not give him the cloathes , he would send his officer ; and then i told the souldier , i would have him before a justice of peace ; so he went away , and never came to me again ; and i could never hear of my apprentice since , tho' i have made great inquiry after him . l. c. j. did your servant tell you of any money that had been offered him by the before-mentioned gentleman ? mr. tims . no , my lord ; he did not tell me , but he told mr. smith , the witness that was last examined , as he told me . mr. darnell . my lord , i desire that bowsell's examination taken before mr. john brown , the coroner of london , upon oath , may be read . which being proved by the coroner , were directed to be read . clerk of the peace reads . o. januarii , . andrew bowsell , servant to richard tims shoomaker , sworn and examined touching the death of andrew clench doctor in physick , deceased : saith , that he , this informant , being sent to mr. parker's at the bull-head ale-house in leaden-hall-street , on monday last was seven night , being the fourth of this instant january , between the hours of ten and eleven of the clock in the evening , saw a coach standing against leaden-hall-market , and heard some person that was in the coach say , make haste . and this informant says , that according to the best of his remembrance that he heard him talk of a poulterers ; and this informant says , that soon after the coachman was gone into the market , this informant saw two persons go out of the coach , one whereof had , as this informant believes , a black coat on ; and that this informant saw the same person as soon as he came out of the coach fling a cloak over him , and then both the persons went through the market on the west part : and this informant saith , that this informant going to look into the coach , the person that had the cloak on him , cry'd dam him ; and this informant saith , that he , this informant , thereupon going away , went to mr. parker's , and told them that two persons had cheated a coachman , or to that effect . andrew bowsell being further examined the th day of january , . touching the death of andrew clench , saith , that he hath seen henry harrison , now prisoner in their majesties goal of newgate , and believes he was one of the persons that came out of the coach at leaden-hall , a little after ten of the clock at night , on monday the th of this instant january ; and believes he knows him by his voice . and soon after , this informant understood that the said andrew clench was murther'd in a coach , being the fame coach which the said harrison , and another person unkown a little before went out of . l. c. j. mr. harrison , what have you to say against that which hath been proved against you , what defence can you make ? mr. harrison , my lord , i did attend dr. clench about a mortgage that was made him by mrs. vanwick and dr. clench did pay one hundred pounds , but this gentlewoman would pay or allow rowe but fifteen pounds , and we did not know how to get the money from rowe , so we petition'd the lords commissioners about it , which was above six months before doctor clench was murther'd ; and mr. fairbeard wonder'd that i would put doctor clenche's name into a petition with such a rogue as rowe ; and i do positively say , that i had not seen dr. clench in a month before , and if doctor clench had died in his bed it had been the same thing to me ; and , my lord , mr. johnson and i had never any angry words between us ; and i have the report in chancery which i had from sir john hoskins , which i will read , if your lordship pleases . l. c. j. let 's see it . which was handed to the lord chief justice sitting upon the bench. mr. harrison . my lord , that is the original , which if your lordship pleases to remember , i had rowe before you twice about it , and it is rowe that hath been the rogue , and therefore what occasion had we to be angry with doctor clench ? then the report was perus'd by the lord chief justice , and return'd to him . l. c. j. mr. harrison , this will do you no good , not being to the present purpose , therefore proceed in your defence . mr. harrison . now , my lord , i have some witnesses to prove where i was at the time that the coachman says the murther was done . cryer , call thomas turner a porter , and mr. maccaffee . who appeared , but were not sworn , and were examined apart , at the request of mr. darnell , the kings and queens councell . mr. harrison . my lord , i shall prove by these witnesses , that i was elsewhere when the coach-man said he took up those two men , a little after nine-a-clock . pray mr. turner , give an account to the court , what time it was , i called you to carry my trunk . tho. turner . my lord , i was , about seven of the clock in the evening , the th day of january last , at the two kings and key in fleet-street , over against salisbury-court ; and i was told , that a gentleman at joe's coffee-house in salisbury-court wanted a porter ; and i presently went to him thither , and it was this mr. harrison : and he bad me take up his trunk , which i did , and carried it to the two kings and key , and he went with me : and he asked me to get some linnen wash'd for him against the next day at noon ; and he gave me some linnen , which i carried to my wife to wash for him , and return'd to him again presently ; and i went with him from thence , and carry'd his trunk to his lodgings in paul's church-yard ; and when i had deliver'd his trunk , i left him there ; and then it was about eight of the clock at night . l. c. j. at whose house was it , you deliver'd the trunk ? tho. turner . my lord , it was at mr. jones's house , in paul's church-yard . l. c. j. and did he stay within ? tho. turner . no , my lord , he went out presently after me . l. c. j. were you any where else with him that night , besides at the places you have mentioned ? tho. turner . no , my lord. mr. harrison . my lord , i will prove that mr. humston mistakes an hour . mr. humston . i cannot mistake an hour , because the shop is shut up about nine-a-clock , and it was shut when you came first to my lodgings . mr. harrison . my lord , there stands in court one thomas johnson , apprentice to mr. pemmel ; he can tell what time a-night it was i came to mr. humston's , he let me in ; i desire he may be call'd . mr. darnell . swear thomas johnson . [ who was sworn . ] l. c. j. what time of the night was it that mr. harrison came to speak with mr. humston , on that night dr. clenche was murder'd ? tho. johnson . my lord , on the th of january last at night , mr. harrison came to my master's house , and knock'd at the door ; and i went to the door , and open'd it , for i had shut up the shop ; and he ask'd me if mr. humston was within ? and i told him , he was : and he came in , and went up to mr. humston's chamber ; and it was then about nine of the clock , as near as i can guess . l. c. j. where is your master's house ? tho. johnson . my lord , it is the golden key in fleet-street , over against fetter-lane end . mr. harrison . pray call adam maccaffee , mr. white , mr. carden , and john allen. [ who appear'd . and mr. maccaffee stood up . ] mr. maccaffee . upon monday the th day of january last , the prisoner was at my house , and stay'd from nine a-clock , till past eleven , and play'd at cards with one mr. baker , and one mr. white and his wife ; and he stay'd till it had struck eleven-a-clock . l. c. j. where is your house , sir ? mr. maccaffee . my house is in chancery-lane , over against serjeants-inn . l. c. j. did he tell you where he had been before ? mr. maccaffee . he said , that he had been towards the city , and was very cold . l. c. j. did he say any thing of mr. humston ? mr. maccaffee . no , my lord. mr. darnell . pray , what room were you in ? did you play at cards in the kitchen ? mr. maccaffee . yes . mr. darnel . were they up stairs ? mr. maccaffee . no , my lord. lord mayor . at what time a-night did they come in ? mr. maccaffee . betwixt nine and ten-a-clock , my lord. l. c. j. what made you take notice of the day of the month , and hour of the day ? mr. maccaffee . my lord , i heard that dr. clenche was murder'd , and that mr. harrison was taxed with it , and that made me take notice of the day . l. c. j. call mrs. maccaffee . [ who stood up . ] l. c. j. mistress , what time did mr. harrison come to your house on the th of january last at night ? mrs. maccaffee . my lord , it was as near nine-a-clock as any thing can be , when he came in first . l. c. j. how long did he stay there ? mrs. maccaffee . i cannot tell how long he stay'd , but there were two accidents happen'd ; one was , our playing at cards ; and the other was , that there was a pick-pocket carried by to be pump'd at lincolns-inn ; it was from nine to eleven before he went away , and there were mrs. white , mr. baker , and one mrs. fairelesse . l. c. j. did any one come with the prisoner , to your house ? in what humour did he seem to be ? mrs. maccaffee . no , my lord , there was no one came with him , and he never stirr'd out , neither did he seem to be disorder'd ; he was neither too merry , nor too melancholy . l. c. j. where did he say he had been ? mrs. maccaffee . he said , that he had been in the city . l. c. j. did he use to frequent your house ? mrs. maccaffee . formerly he did ; but i had not seen him in half a year before . mr. darnell . how many were there , do you say ? mrs. maccaffee . there was one mrs. fairelesse , and one mrs. white , and my self , and my husband was upon the bed , and mr. white came for his wife about ten-a-clock , to come home . mr. darnell . do you remember that mr. baker was there ? mrs. maccaffee . yes , he was there . l. c. j. pray mistress , did mr. harrison come in , and find them at cards ? mrs. maccaffee . no , we went to cards , afterwards . l. c. j. where was your husband ? mrs. maccaffee . he was upon the bed in the kitchen . l. c. j. call mr. baker . [ who stood up . ] mr. baker . this gentleman , the prisoner , is a stranger to me ; but here is a letter that he sent me two or three days afterwards . i came into mrs. maccaffee's house about half an hour after ) nine a-clock , with two women more : mrs. maccaffee owed me money , and i had been in lincolns-inn , for i do some work there for sir thomas cooke , and the women ask'd me to play at cards ; and i said , that i did not care to play , because i had been abroad , and could not get any money , which made me out of humour . my lord , i never saw the man in my life before . l. c. j. who were they that play'd at cards ? mr. baker . it was one mrs. fairelesse , the woman of the house , and mr. harrison , and my self . l. c. j. who were together ? mr. baker . mrs. fairless and i , and the woman of the house and mr. harrison the prisoner , and we play'd for a penny a corner , i cannot say any more to it , my lord. l. c. j. how long did he stay ? mr. baker . i left him there after ten a clock , and as i hope for mercy , i never saw him but once before , and i had not known him again , but by a particular token . mr. harrison . were there not some accidents happen'd at that time ? mr. baker . yes , there came a vintner's boy to ask for a woman , one mrs. frances , and he was in great haste , and a pick-pocket was carried up the lane to be pump'd at lincolns-inn pump . mr. harrison . call mrs. fairlesse , call mrs. whipple . [ neither of which appear'd . ] call mr. sutton , who appeared . l. c. j. where do you live , and what is your name ? mr. sutton . my lord , my name is sutton , and i live in stone-cutter's - street . mr. harrison . mr. sutton , what time was it that i was coming by , when one mr. russel and you were drinking ? mr. sutton . my lord , it was about eleven a clock at night , at the king's head-tavern at chancery-lane end . mr. harrison . what had i on , a cloak and a muff ? mr. sutton . yes , i think you had a cloak on . mr. darnell . what time was it , was it before or after eleven a clock ? mr. sutton . it was about a quarter before eleven . lord mayor . what day of the month was it ? mr. sutton . it was the fourth of january . l. c. j. where was he going , which way went he ? mr. sutton . he was going towards fleet-bridge , my lord , and i called after him , but could not make him hear me at first , but afterwards he came to us . mr. harrison . pray call mr. russel . [ who appeared . mr. russel . i can't hear , my lord , but if you please to permit mr. sutton to speak to me , i can hear his voice better than any man's . l. c. j. speak as loud as you can , sir , and we will let you hear us , mr. sutton must not speak for you . mr. harrison . pray mr. russel what time of night was it that you saw me go by you , when you were drinking at the kings-head-tavern ? mr. russel . i can't tell , my lord , i have not heard a clock these three years . l. c. j. where were you going at that time of night ? mr. russel . i was going to wild-street , to the chyrurgeon's - arms , to receive some money . l. c. j. how came mr. sutton to go with you ? mr. russel . he had been with me all that day , and i desired him to go with me ; and , my lord , i did expect that the money would have been brought to me , but was not , so i went for it . l. c. j. well , and what then ? mr. russel . while we staid at the king 's - head tavern door to drink wine , mr. sutton sent the drawer to call mr. harrison . l. c. j. what had you been doing before that time ? mr. russel . we had ( i suppose ) i been drinking together . l. c. j. where had you been before you came to the king 's - head tavern ? mr. russel . we had been at the horseshoe-tavern in chancery-lane . l. c. j. did you request mr. sutton to go with you ? mr. russel . yes , i did , my lord ? l. c. j. you say your easiness was to go to wild-street , to receive some money ? mr. russel . yes , it was , my lord , and i did receive it ? l. c. j. when was it that you met mr. harrison , the prisoner ? mr. russel . my lord , i can't positively say , but by computation of the night , i believe it was about eleven a clock . l. c. j. did you meet mr. harrison before you went to the horseshooe-tavern , or after ? mr. russel . afterwards , my lord , i saw mr. harrison turn at the corner of fleet-street , towards fleet-bridge . l. c. j. at the time when mr. sutton and you went first out , did you agree of your going to the horseshooe-tavern ? mr. russel . we went thither to send for the gentleman out of wild-street . l. c. j. when you had been drinking all the afternoon , how came you to stop your coach at the king 's - head ? mr. russel . we stopt there , whilst mr. sutton sent for some body to come to him . l. c. j. you said just now that mr. sutton sent for mr. harrison . mr. russel . no , my lord , i do not remember that , but mr. sutton said harry , or harrison , where art thou going , when he went by us . mr. harrison . my lord , this man is a stranger to me . call john allen , drawer at the king 's head-tavern . [ who appeared . mr. harrison . john allen , what time of night was it that mr. sutton and mr. russel came to your house in a coach ? j. allen. i believe it was about eleven a clock . l. c. j. how much wine had they ? j. allen. two half pints of canary . l. c. j. what night was it ? what day of the month was it ? j. allen. my lord , i can't remember what day of the month , but it was that night that doctor clench was murther'd . l. c. j. did you see mr. harrison there ? j. allen. i can't tell that , i never saw him , 'till i saw him in prison . mr. harrison . did not you go to mr. maccaffee's house ? j. allen. yes , i did . mr. harrison . did not one strike you with a muff ? j. allen. yes , but i can't remember who it was . lord mayor . look upon that man , do you not know him to be the person ? j. allen. no , my lord , i do not know him to be the person . mr. darnell . who sent you to crown-court ? j. allen. mr. russel . mr. darnell . for what ? j. allen. for a servant maid , and he bid me tell her that he had a desire to speak with her . mr. darnell . how long did you tarry at the house ? j. allen. i did not stay at all . mr. harrison . call mr. carden , drawer at the king 's - head tavern . [ who appeared . mr. harrison . what time did mr. sutton come to your house , did you see any one stand at the coach side ? and what cloaths had he on ? carden . i saw one stand at the coach side , and he had a hanging-coat or a cloak on , it was about the hour of eleven , to the best of my knowledge , and i saw a man go into the coach , and come out again . mr. coroner . what time of night do you shut your doors , especially on monday nights ; and were they shut when mr. sutton called in the coach ? carden . we shut them commonly about eleven a clock at night , but on monday nights usually later ; they were shut when mr. sutton called , and i opened them for him . l. c. j. can you say that the prisoner was the man that drank with mr. sutton ? carden . to the best of my knowledge ( looking on the prisoner ) that is the man , i can't be positive , my lord. l. c. j. well , have you any more witnesses ? mr. harrison . no , my lord , unless mr. essington be here , he promised to be here to give an account of me . my lord , there is a gentleman that is in the press-yard , one mr. _____ butler , i desire lie may be sent for , if your lordship please . l. c. j. let him be fetch'd down . [ which was done . l. c. j. but , in the mean time , it behoves you to give account of these things . first , why did you say that you were a parliament man ? secondly ; why did you leave your lodgings , and take other lodgings in paul's - church-yard ? thirdly , why did you say that you had extraordinary business ? give some account what your business was , and who that gentleman was , that staid for you in the street , when mr. humstone desired you to stay and sup with him , what hinder'd you from accepting his invitation ? now we would have you to consider of these things , and give an answer to them , for it much concerns you so to do . mr. harrison . my lord , first as to the first , i do declare that i never went for a parliament man , nor never said so : secondly , that night i was to go out of town , i had left word at several cossee-houses that i was going out of town upon earnest business , and with above twenty people besides , that i was going out of town , and i was about to go to basing-stoke , to a gentleman that owed me money , one mr. bulling , but i could not get money to go . l. c. j. prove that you were to go into the country . mr. harrison . my lord , i can't prove that now , except i could have sent to basing-stoke . l. c. j. that you should have done before now ; why did you not stay with mr. humston , when he invited you to sup with him ? you might have been better entertained there , than by going among strangers to play at cards for a penny a corner , at an ale-house . mr. harrison . my lord , i was unwilling to stay , because he had strangers with him . l. c. j. what if he had , you are not such a bashful man , that you could not sup with strangers . mr. harrison . my lord , mr. rowe was accused with me . l. c. j. what if he was ? he was under some suspicion , and he hath made it appear where he was at the time the fact was committed , and now he is discharged . then mr. butler was brought into court from newgate , attended by a keeper . mr. harrison . mr. butler , pray tell the court what mr. fairbeard said to you about me ? mr. butler . my lord , mr. fairbeard asked me what i could say about what mr. harrison had said to me concerning the murther of doctor clench ? i told him i could not tell what to make of his broken and rambling speeches and discourses , they being most of them spoken when he was in his drink . this is all that i know , my lord. l. c. j. this is not a witness for your turn . mr. darnell . call mrs. anwell . [ who was sent for from her lodgings in brownlow-street in holborn , and appeared , and was sworn . mr. darnell . madam , pray give an account what mrs. ashbolt told you concerning any man's being in a coach at brownlow-street end ? mrs. anwell . i know nothing of my own knowledge , but the night that doctor clench was murthered , i sent mrs. ashbolt of an errand , and at her return , i blam'd her for staying so long ; and she told me , that as she was returning home , a coach stop'd at brownlow-street end , with two men with cloaks on in it , and that one of them bad the coachman go for doctor clench , and desire him to come to them , and in his going several times look'd back as if he suspected the men would leave the coach , and so she stayed until doctor clench came and wont into the coach , and that one of the men gave the doctor his place ; and that one of them had a fair perriwig and a sanguine complexion . mr. darnell . what discourse had you with her when you heard that those men had murdered doctor clench ? mrs. anwell . she told me that one of those men had a fair perriwig and a sanguin complexion , and that one of them had a cloak on . l. c. j. did she say that she observod either of their faces ? mrs. anwell . yes , my lord , she said that one of them had a round face , and a big voice . l. c. j. did she say , she could know him again ? mrs. anwell . no , my lord , she did not say so , but she said that she could know his voice again . and after the last sessions i told mrs. clench of it , and that if she would send for the young woman , she would inform her further of it . l. c. j. madam , pray what was the reason , that she did not discover it sooner to mrs. clench ? mrs. anwell . why truly because mrs. ashbolt , her mother , was unwilling she should concern her self in such a matter . mr. darnell . call another witness , mr. jones , coachmaker . [ who was sworn . mr. harrison . pray , my lord , take notice , that now she says that those gentlmen had cloaks on , that came in the coach to brownlow-street end . l. c. j. yes , we heard her what she said . mr. darnell . my lord , i will ask this witness , mr. jones , a question . mr. darnell . pray sir , tell my lord and the jury , what mrs. ashbolt did at newgate . mr. jones . my lord , i went with her to newgate , together with doctor clench his coachman , and when she came to newgate , before she saw mr. harrison ( only stood at the chamber door and hoard him speak ) she said , that , to the best of her thoughts , he was the man that put his head out of the coach to look after the coachman , and swore at him , for she knew his voice . and when she came to see him , she said , that she knew his face , and declared that was the man that put his head out of the coach. l. c. j. did he look out of the coach , mrs. ashbolt ? mrs. ashbolt . yes , my lord , he put his head out of the coach , and look'd after the coach-man , to see if he went right to doctor clench's door , and did swear at him , because he went no faster . l. c. j. how could you discern his face ? mrs. ashbolt . by the light of two lamps , that were near , which did shine into the coach. l. c. j. can you take it upon your oath that the prisoner is the same person ? mrs. ashbolt . yes , my lord , i can both by his voice and face . mr. darnell . now , my lord , we shall shew your lordship somewhat in relation to the credit of those witnesses , that the prisoner hath brought here ; particularly , as to mr. baker , we shall prove that he hath been convicted for a cheat. and as for maccaffee , he keeps a very disorderly house , where ill people commonly resort . mr. darnell . cryer , call mrs. martha whelstead , and mr. thomas cole . l. c. j. mrs. jones , what time did mr. harrison come to your house , to his lodging , that night that the murder was committed ? mrs. jones . i think it was about eleven a clock , or a little before eleven . l. c. j. what time on the monday did he hire the lodging of you ? mrs. jones . it was sometime after dinner . l. c. j. it was before night , was it not ? mrs. jones . yes , my lord , it was before night . mr. darnell . my lord , i desire that mr. tanner may read the record against mr. baker , whereby it will appear that he was indicted and convicted at hixes-hall , for cheating the parish of st. giles in middlesex , when he was scavenger there , by altering the figures in the book , and rateing the sums of money higher upon divers of the parishioners , than they were in the parish book , and then collecting and extorting the money , so by him increased , from them . mr. tanner reads the indictment aforesaid , by which it did appear to the court , and to the jury , that the said mr. baker was indicted for the offence aforesaid , and confessed the indictment , and was fined for it twenty shillings . mr. baker . my lord , i was wrongfully indicted , and traversed the indictment , and was acquitted . l. c. j. mr. tanner , give me the record . lord chief justice peruses the record . mr. baker . i have read the material parts of the record , and do find that you were indicted for that offence , and that you confessed the indictment , and were fined for it . mr. baker . my lord , i was acquitted of it , and can prove it by captain cannon , who knows me , and my reputation , and he is in court. l. c. j. mr. baker , the record testifieth the truth , and cannot erre , therefore you have great confidence to aver against it , yet i will hear what captain cannon saith . mr. baker . call captain cannon . [ who appeared . l. c. j. capatin cannon , do you know this mr. baker ? captain cannon . yes , my lord , very well . mr. darnell . my lord , i desire that captain cannon may be sworn . l. c. j. mr. tanner , swear captain cannon . [ who was sworn . l. c. j. sir , do you know that mr. baker was indicted for falsifying of the scavengers book when he was scavenger , and acquitted or convicted , and what do you know about it ? captain cannon . my lord , i am an inhabitant of the parish of st. giles in the fields , and so i was when mr. baker was scavenger , and do well remember thas some of the inhabitants of that division whereof he was scavenger , were troubled , and complained , that they were charged more than usually they had been to the scavengers rate ; and it was discover'd that several figures of the book by which mr. baker collected the money to the scavengers rate , were blotted and altered , and did not agree with the parish leadger-book , but the sums in his book so blotted and altered were raised ; whereupon it was ordered that he should be indicted for it , and it was done accordingly , and he was fined for it , and to the best of my remembrance he confessed that indictment . l. c. j. captain cannon , pray tell the court and the jury , of what reputation mr. baker is now . captain cannon . my lord , he is now of none of the clearest reputations . captain james partrich , of the same parish , being in court , offered himself , and gave the same account of mr. baker that captain cannon did . mr. darnel . crier , call mr. francis brampton , mrs. martha whelstead , and mr. thomas cole . [ and mrs. whelstead and mr. cole appeared , and were sworn . ] mr. darnel . mrs. whelstead , pray give the court and jury an account what disorderly house mr. maccaffee keeps ? mrs. whelstead . my lord , i dwell in crown-court in chancery-lane , over against mr. maccaffee's house ; and he and she are very ill people ; and keep a very evil and scandalous house , and such as are reputed to be house-breakers , pick-pockets , and lewd-women , do use and frequent the house ; and there is commonly at late hours in the night , persons calling out murder , and whore and rogue , and such sort of language , disturbing their neighbours ; and their house hath been several times searched by several constables for stollen goods , and for the persons that have stolen them ; and upon such searches , there have been stolen goods found there : and i have seen great lewdness there between men and women ; and the neighbours do account it a house of an ill fame , and do avoid going thither . mr. tho. cole . my lord , i do know mr. maccaffee and his wife ; i do dwell over against his house , and they are reputed to keep an ill house , and most persons that frequent it , are reputed to be persons of lewd and evil lives and conversations ; and it is amongst the neighbourhood noted for a scandalous house , and several constables have several times searched there for stolen goods . l. c. j. what have you more to say mr. harrison ? mr. harrison . i cannot say any thing more ; you may deal with me according to my deserts in this matter . l. c. j. you may assure your self , that we will do you no wrong ; have you any more to say ? [ he made no reply . ] mr. darnel . my lord , we have another witness come now , who was not here before . crier , call mr. charles whitfield . [ who was sworn . ] mr. darnel . my lord , this gentleman can give your lordship an account what the prisoner said of his being just come out of the country , upon the fifth of january last . pray tell my lord what you know , sir. mr. cha. whitfield . my lord , upon the fifth day of january last , being the day after dr. clench was murdered , i went to joe's coffee-house in salisbury-court , and there mr. harrison sitting by the fire-side , says i to mr. harrison , where have you been for a long time that i have not seen you ? says he , i have been in the country : where says i ? says he , about twenty miles off , in kent ; and i want a landress , and a lodging . says i , do you hear the news , sir ? what news , says he ? why , said i , of dr. clench's being murdered : i cannot tell the occasion , said i , but he was found dead in a coach last night in leadenhall-street . then says he , i did love him very well once , but of late he hath been a barbarous rogue to a gentlewoman , a friend of mine , and she is in the compter now : and mr. harrison said it was a just judgment of god upon the doctor for being so great a villain to the gentlewoman ; therefore i will write to her presently , and give her an account of his death . and , my lord , the contents of his letter were these , as near as i can remember . madam , i am just now going to lambeth , but hearing of dr. clench's murder , i do hereby give you an account of it , and can impute it to no less than a just judgment of god upon him for his baseness shewed to you . and if you think fit to send to madam clench , it may be she may send somewhat towards your relief , she now being a widow as well as you . madam , i am yours to command , henry harrison . my lord , after this came into the same coffee-house another person , one mr. ravenscroft , of whom mr. harrison asked some question about dr. clench ; who reply'd , that he heard that dr. clench was murdered , and that it was committed by a bully of the town that belonged to a gentlewoman in the compter who was laid in there upon dr. clench's account ; at which , he was much startled : says he again . there is no person familiar with that gentlewoman but my self ; for i know , and am concerned in all her affairs : perhaps then i may be taken up about it : or , my lord , he used words to that effect . mr. harrison . my lord , this woman was not in the compter upon dr. clench's account . l. c. j. no , the witness don't say so ; but that it was the discourse of the town that she was , and the town did suppose her so to be . what did he say further , sir ? mr. whitfield . my lord , he said that he had been in kent about twenty miles off ; and he said , that he wanted a landress , because he had some foul linnen to wash ; which he produced . this was on the tuesday , and the murder was committed on the monday-night before : and , my lord , there were two more gentlemen that heard him as well as i , that he said , that he had been about twenty miles off in kent , and that he was newly come to town . now , my lord , i could not imagine for what reason this man should say , that he had been out of town about a fort-night or three weeks , when he was in that house but the monday-night before ; that is , the night the murder was committed . mr. darnel . crier , call mr. bishop . [ who appeared and was sworn . ] mr. bishop . about three years ago the prisoner came to my master's shop to cheapen some linnen , and when — l. c. j. hold , what are you doing now ? are you going to arraign his whole life ? away , away , that ought not to be ; that is nothing to the matter . have you done , prisoner ? mr. harrison . yes , my lord , i have done , i refer my cause to your lordship . then the court summed up the evidence very particularly to the gentlemen of the jury , as followeth ; l. c. j. gentlemen of the jury ; the prisoner at the bar , henry harrison , stands indicted for the wilful murder of dr. andrew clenche , who was barbarously murdered on the fourth day of january last : you have heard the witnesses that have been sworn ; and upon their testimony , it doth appear that two persons came to brownlow-street-end in a coach after nine a clock at night , and sent the coach-man to the doctor 's house , under pretence to get him to a patient , a friend of theirs , that was sick . by this contrivance , they got him into their coach , which they had brought for that purpose , and then they ordered the coach-man to drive to leadenhall-street ; and when they came about holborn-bars , one of them ask'd the coach-man why he drove so slow , and bad him drive faster . when they came to leadenhall-street , then they bad him drive to the pye-tavern without aldgate ; where one of them bad the coach-man ask for one hunt ; but he not being there , one of them bad the coach-man return back , and gave six pence to the watch to come through the gate , which was shut in the mean time ; and when they came to leadenhall-market , one of them gave the coach-man three shillings and six pence , and sent him to buy a couple of fowls ; which the coach-man did buy , and brought them to the coach ; but when he came back , he found the doctor in the body of the coach leaning against the fore seat of the coach , a handkerchief being tied about his neck with a coal in it , placed upon his wind-pipe ; which hankerchief and coal have been produced in court. the question is , gentlemen , whether the prisoner at the bar be guilty of this base and barbarous murder ? to prove which , there have been a very long evidence given , some positive , some circumstantial . it has been proved that dr. clenche had some dealings with a woman named vanwicke , and had lent her one hundred and twenty pounds , and had taken a mortage for it . this prisoner , mr. harrison , was a great acquaintance , and very intimate with this woman ; and did concern himself in the management of her affairs : and because dr. clenche did refuse to lend the woman more money , therefore he had an animosity against dr. clenche . the money not being paid to the doctor as he did expect , he did call it in ; and therefore this gentlewoman did oftentimes repair to dr. clenche to desire farther time , or forbearance , because she could not raise or procure the money elsewhere . that about michaelmass last it seems she came to a coffee-house near warwick-house in holborn , and there was mr. harrison ; where they consulted what to do . and it was agreed , that the mistress of the house and mrs. vanwicke should go to dr. clench's ; but mr. harrison should stay behind , for it was not thought convenient that he should go , lest he should provoke the doctor . when they came to the doctor , mrs. vanwicke was very importunate to have some more money ; but the doctor would lend her no more . and when they returned to the coffee-house again , mr. harrison enquired what passed between the doctor and mrs. vanwicke . she told him , that the doctor would not furnish her with any more money , although she had pressed him to do it , and urged her great necessities , but advised her to go to service . damn him , says harrison , does he say that a woman of your quality should go to service ? he is a great rogue , and deserves to have his throat cut ; but let me alone , i will manage him . at another place there was a discourse betwixt mr. harrison and one mr. johnson ; and that the prisoner did then speak very hard and ill words of dr. clenche : and that mr. harrison came frequently to him ; and one time laid his hand upon his sword , using some menacing words , but what they were he cannot tell : but he likewise says , that at several times he did expostulate with him , and told him , that he would not do any good with such discourses as these are , &c. that the mortgage-money not being paid , it was thought fit , that there should be a prosecution made to get possession of the mortgaged estate , and that the tenants should be forbid to pay their rents . and mr. harrison went to mrs. west the tenant , some few days before st. thomas day last , and demanded the rent of her . to which she made answer , that dr. clenche had forbid the paiment of the rent to mrs. vanwicke . thereupon mr. harrison grew very angry , and answered , that dr. clench was a rogue and a villain , and bid her that she should not pay him any rent . and the witness saith further , that the doctor being prest to let her have some more money , refused to do it , because she would spend it all upon harrison . then the counsel for the king called some witnesses , who gave you account of the prisoner's shifting his lodgings the day before the murder was done . he takes a lodging at mr. garway's in thread-needle-street , on the twenty third day of december , and there he continued till about the first of january . the second of january he was at garway's shop ; and on the sunday night he came and fetcht away his things . the monday after , being the day that this barbarous fact was committed , he sent a letter to mrs. garway , to acquaint her that he was gone out of town ; but he left three half crowns with her maid to pay for his lodging . but as to his going out of town , it was false , for he never went into the country , but took a lodging at mr. jones's in paul's church-yard . it 's observable also , that he went for a parliament-man ▪ when he lodged at mr. garway's , and had his footman to attend upon him , &c. there it was that he was s●●● to have an ordinary handkerchief , and to hold it to the fire ; which was taken notice of by mrs. jackson , the daughter of mrs. garway , which was not sutable , as she thought , to a parliament-man's quality , but rather fit for a seaman , for it was like the apron of the maid in the house : which hath been shewed in court , and compared with the handkerchief that was tied about dr. clench's neck . she saith it is the same , or very like that which she did see mr. harrison hold in his hand . cartwright the officer at the compter , he tells you , that the sunday night , the day before the murder , mr. harrison came to woodstreet-compter , and enquired for mrs. vanwicke , and that he only was in her chamber , and no other body on that side of the house but mrs. vanwicke , the prisoner , and this cartwright the keeper , who stood at the door , and heard harrison say , that he would have the blood of that rogue , and named clench , or winch. mr. harrison . my lord , he was not in the room . l. c. j. no , he was not ; but there were none on that side the house but you , cartwright , and mrs. vanwicke . now , on the monday on which this fact was committed , he having taken a lodging at jones his house , he came thither with a porter , who brought his portmantua-trunk about eight a clock at night ; and after he had been there a little while , he went away . and you are told , by a gentleman that lodges at the golden-key against fetter-lane end ; that he had some acquaintance with the prisoner , that he had lent him a morning-gown ; and that about nine a clock that very night , he came to his lodging in a cloak ; and then the gentleman asked him for his gown ; and he told him , that he had brought it with him . thereupon the gentleman invites mr. harrison to stay and sup with him . mr. harrison said , he could not stay , for he was engaged ; he must be gone , for that a gentleman staid in the street for him to go about extraordinary business . the coachman tells you , that near about that time two men in fleet-street , near fetter-lane end , hired his coach of him to go to brownlow-street to dr. clench's ; but he can't positively say , that the prisoner at the bar was one of them , but he swears , he does verily believe that he was one of them . mr. harrison . he said before your lordship , that he could not remember what i had on . l. c. j. well , well , he doth not remember it now ; but being hired to go to dr. clench's , he drove to the street end and no further , because the gate at the lower end was shut up , and he could not turn his coach in the street ; but he was sent by them to the doctor 's , to desire the doctor to come out to them , and they sat in the coach in the mean time . the doctor made haste , and went to them immediately , and they drove away to leaden-hall , and then to aldgate ; and they called at the py-tavern , and enquired for one mr. hunt a chirurgeon , as i mentioned to you before : he not being there , they returned to drive through aldgate , gave the watch six-pence , and passed through the gate without any manner of notice taken : but if the watch had done their duty , it might have been better discovered . but further , the coachman tells you , that when he came to leaden-hall street , they called to him , and directed him to buy one fowl ; and after that he had been gone a little way from the coach , they called him back , and bad him take some more money and buy two fowls . so he went and bought the fowls ; but when he came back , the two gentlemen were gone , and he found the doctor still in the coach ; and he not stirring , he thought he had been in drink : but upon further examination , and calling the watchman with his candle , it appeared that the doctor was strangled with a handkerchief and a coal . there is one mrs. elianor ashbolt , who lives in brownlow-street with her mother , and had been sent of an errand ; and between nine and ten of the clock at night , she saw the coachman in brownlow-street , and thought that those men in the coach might put a trick upon him , by going away without paying him his fare . and she says further , that by the help of the lamps she did discern the face of this harrison in the coach ; he had a cloak on , with a light perriwig , and looked out of the coach , and did swear at the coachman ; and by this means she knew him when she saw him again , to be the same man , both by his face and voice . this woman indeed was not before the coroner , and she gives you this reason for it , because her mother was not willing she should be concerned in such a matter as this was ; and what she could say , was not known to mrs. clenche until after the second sessions : and when he was in newgate , she saw him there , and declared he was the same man. there was another piece of evidence , viz. that of the boy 's , who does not appear , he was examined before the coroner . there has been evidence given of ill practice to take him out of the way , and therefore his affidavit is read for evidence : he swears he saw two gentlemen come out of the coach when it stood in leaden hall street , and that having seen the prisoner in newgate since , doth believe him to be one . this , gentlemen , is the sum and substance of the evidence for the king , to prove that the prisoner was one of those that committed the murder . you have heard likewise what the prisoner says for himself ; he does undertake to prove that he was in another place , ( that is ) that he should come into maccafee's house in crown-court over against serjeants-inn in chancery-lane : and maccafee , he tells you , that there were some other company there , and that harrison came in very cold , and that they went to cards , and plaid for one penny a corner at whisk ; and that he did continue there from nine till eleven a clock ; and if he was there then , it is impossible he should be guilty of this fact , for the fact was done between the same hours . maccafee's wife tells you the same , and they both tell you who were there besides , and who plaid together , and are positive that the prisoner was there . baker says , that he went away about half an hour after ten at night , and left harrison behind him . to confirm this evidence , they have called two other witnesses besides the drawers at the king's-head tavern , viz. mr. sutton the surgeon , who lives in stone-cutters street , and mr. russel : mr. sutton says , they had been at the horse-shoe tavern in chancery-lane , and called for half a pint of sack at the king's-head tavern when they came by : and as they sat in the coach , mr. harrison came by accidentally , and one of them looking out of the coach , cries harry , or harrison ; and he went to them , and they drank together another half pint of sack. as to their meeting with harrison , and as to other passages there , russell says the same ; but as to the time of night he is not positive . and they sent one of the drawers to a house in crown-court to enquire for some body there . the drawers of the king's-head tavern , say , that mr. sutton and mr. russell did call there about that time ; and that they drank two half pints of wine : and that when they were drinking , a man came by with a hanging-coat or cloak on , and drank with them . and one of the drawers went to call some body in crown-court ; and one of the company up with his muff and gave him a slap in the face . now this is the sum and substance of the evidence that you have heard on the behalf of the prisoner , to induce you to believe that he was not the person that was concerned in the murder of doctor clenche . to which evidence an answer hath been offered ; first , as to those witnesses , maccafee and his wife , divers witnesses have been produced to prove , that they are people of doubtful credit ; it seems they keep an house of ill fame . mr. harrison . i am glad , my lord , that i was there . l. c. j. well , well , gentlemen , the people of the house are not of very good reputation , they keep a naughty and a disorderly house , ( if you believe the witnesses ) you may consider of their credit . and as to mr. baker ; about nine years since he was convicted of an arrant cheat , which is no less than forgery , for altering the scavenger's rate for st. giles's parish , and therefore the less credit is to be given to his evidence ; for now it appears that he is a knave upon record : and the very record it self was produced against him , which is true without doubt , notwithstanding his pretence of innocency . what is said by mr. russell and mr. sutton , i must leave to your consideration ; they had been a drinking , and the drawer says they were at the king's-head tavern at of the clock at night . mr. harrison the next day after the murder , met a gentleman at joes coffee-house in salisbury-court ; and though he had taken a lodging in paul's church-yard , yet he said that he was newly come to town , and had been in kent , and had remained there about three weeks ; and that he wanted a laundress and a lodging , although he had not been out of town , and had taken a lodging but the day before : and then he told the witness who discoursed with him about the death of dr. clenche , that he had formerly loved him , but he said he had been of late a barbarous rogue to a poor gentlewoman a friend of his ; and that the just judgment of god had fallen upon him for so doing , and that he would write to her to give her an account of it ; and advise her to write to mrs. clenche , and to tell her that she was a widow now as well as mrs. vanwick ; and he thought by that means to move mrs. clenche to pity her , being a widow as well as her self : and that whilst they were talking thus , one mr. ravenscroft tells him , that dr. clenche was murdered , and that a bully of the town , that belonged to a gentlewoman in the compter , one mrs. vanwick , was suspected . at which mr. harrison was much startled , and said , that no one was concerned with that gentlewoman but himself ; and for ought he knew , he might be taken up for it . this is that which he said . now what said mr. harrison farther for himself ? why , says he , this gentlewoman is not in prison at the prosecution of dr. clenche , and was not so affirmed , but so reported ; and whether it were so or no is no great matter . gentlemen , you ought to consider of the evidence that you have heard against him , and also to weigh well the evidence he hath brought for himself . it is most plain , if you believe the witnesses , that mr. harrison was concerned for this woman vanwick , and hath threatned dr. clenche , called him rogue and rascal , and said , that he deserved to have his throat cut ; that harrison went under a disguise for some time before the murder . you have had an account of the handkerchief , what kind of handkerchief harrison had , and what handkerchief was taken about dr. clench's neck , you have seen : and you heard what evidence was given by mr. humstond ; how the prisoner was with him about nine a clock that night ; and how he refused to stay and sup with mr. humstond . if mr. harrison had no earnest business , one would have thought he might have staid with mr. humstond better than to have gone to an ale-house in crown-court , and plaid at cards at one penny a piece a corner ; he might have had better fare no doubt . the witnesses for the prisoner say for him , that he came to maccafee's house about a clock at night , and staid till eleven : that is contrary to that evidence given for the king , viz. that he was in the coach at brownlow-street end ; for if he was at maccafee's house all the time they mention , it is impossible he should be guilty . all those things are under your serious consideration . you had best go together , and if you are not satisfied upon the evidence you have heard , that he is guilty , then you ought to acquit him ; but if you are satisfied that he did commit this murder , then you ought to find him guilty . then the jury withdrew , and the court adjourned for half an hour ; and when they were returned , the jury came to give their verdict ; and being called over , answered to their names ; and mr. harrison was brought to the bar. cl. of arraign . gentlemen , are you all agreed of your verdict ? jury . — yes . cl. of arraign . who shall say for you ? jury . — our foreman . cl. of arraign . henry harrison , hold up thy hand . [ which he did . ] look upon the prisoner ; how say you ? is he guilty of the felony and murder whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty of wilful murder . cl. of arraign . what goods or chattels ? &c. foreman . none that we know of . major richardson . look to him , he is found guilty of wilful murder . cl. of arraign . then hearken to your verdict as the court hath recorded it . you say that henry harrison is guilty of the felony and murder whereof he stands indicted , but that he had no lands , nor tenements , goods nor chattels , at the time of the felony and murder committed , nor at any time since to your knowledg : and so you say all ? jury . — yes . then the prisoner was remanded to newgate until the last day of the sessions , and then he was brought to the bar to receive sentence of death . cl. of arraign . henry harrison , hold up thy hand . [ which he did . ] henry harrison , you stand convicted of felony and murder , for the murder of dr. andrew clenche : what can you say for your self why judgment should not be given against you , to die according to law ? mr. d. recorder . mr harrison , you have been indicted , arraign'd and convicted of felony and murder , for the murder of dr andrew clenche . you have had a long , and a fair and favourable tryal , as any person that ever have been tryed at this bar. the jury that has passed upon your life and death hath convicted you , and the court are now ready to do their last act , which is to pronounce that sentence that the law does inflict upon such crimes as you stand convicted of . mr. harrison . i expect no mercy here , therefore i humbly desire you would interceed to the queen , that i may have twelve days allowed me , in order to my better preparation for death . mr. d. recorder . — well . mr. harrison . i must needs acknowledg , that i was tryed before the best of judges , my lord-chief-justice holt , but one thing i think strange , that my witnesses should be examin'd singly , and not the king 's . mr. d. recorder . that is no more than what is usual , the counsel for the king and queen requested it , and you did not . mr. harrison . i begg'd that i might have timely notice of my tryal , and i had not ; there were seven people in my company at the time when this black and bloody murder was done , and i could not get them to be here . mr. d. recorder . you have had a long time to get them ready , and you pressed on your own tryal , which you should not have done if you had not been ready . mr. harrison . i humbly submit . then the usual sentence of death was pronounc'd against him , and he was remanded to newgate . the examination of henry harrison this th . day of january , . this examinant being ask'd where his lodgings are , answereth , that he lodgeth at the golden-ball in paul's church-yard , and came to lodge there on monday night about eleven of the clock or half an hour after , but took the lodgings in the morning , the master of the house being one mr. jones a cane-chair-seller ; and before that time this examinant lodged at the hand and apple near the exchange , which said lodging he left on saturday last in the morning , and paid for them on sunday afternoon . and this examinant saith , that on saturday night last he lodg'd at the white belcony in old southampton-buildings , the mistress of the house being one mistress pitts : and this examinant lodged there on sunday night also . and this examinant saith , that he was at the king's head in crown-court in chancery-lane upon monday last , from between seven and eight of the clock at night , and stayed there until eleven , playing at cards with the man and woman of the house , and other persons unknown . and being ask'd where he dined on monday , and how he spent his time on monday in the afternoon , he saith , he cannot give any account . and this examinant saith , that on tuesday last mr hartly of old southampton-buildings , discoursing concerning the murder of doctor clench , said , that this examinant was suspected to be guilty of that murder . and this examinant further saith , that he wore the same clothes , he hath now on upon monday last , and hath worn them a great while having no other clothes to wear . capt. & cognit . : die januarij . . coram j. holt. hen. harrison . the tryal of john cole , for the murther of dr. andrew clenche , . london , printed by thomas braddyll , and are to be sold by william battersby at thavies inn-gate , and r. baldwin near the oxford arms in warwick-lane . mdc xcii . the arraignment , tryal , and acquittal of john cole for the murther of dr. andrew clenche . at the sessions of gaol-delivery of newgate , holden for the city of london , at justice-hall in the old baily , on the st . day of august , and on the st . and d . days of september , in the th . year of their majesties reign . judges present mr. justice dolben . and mr. justice powel . the keeper of newgate did , according to order of the court being sate , on friday the d . day of september , bring up the body of john cole to the sessions pouse in the old-baily , london ; who being at the bar , was arraigned upon an indictment of felony and murther , found against him by the grand-jury of the city of london , for the murther of dr. andrew clenche . clerk of arraignment . john cole , hold up thy hand . [ which he did . ] you stand indicted by the name of john cole , of london , labourer , for the murther of dr. andrew clenche , &c. and the indictment is in such manner as that against mr. henry harrison . how say you , john cole , are you guilty of the felony and murther whereof you stand indicted , or not guilty ? joen cole . not guilty . cl. of ar. culprist , how will you be tryed ? john cole . by god and my country . cl. of ar. god send you a good deliverance . and afterwards the said john cole was brought to the bar upon his tryal ▪ and those persons who were returned upon the jury , were called over twice , and their appearances recorded . cl. of ar. you , john cole ▪ these men that you shall hear call'd , and personally do appear , are to pass between our sovereign lord and lady the king and queen , and you upon tryal of your life and death ; if therefore you will challenge them , or any of them , your time is to challenge them as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . then the jury were call'd and sworn , and th●n were counted ; and the twelve sworn were these whose names follow ▪ jvrors . john clay edward sherlock john ruddyer cuthbert lee thomas watson thomas milburne ben. evens george bestow archibauld wilson thomas applebury nicholas harris ralph cates sworn . then proclamation was made for information and evidence as usual . cl. of ar. john cole , hold up thy hand . [ which he did . ] gentlemen , you that are sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause . he stands indicted by the name of john cole , late of london , labourer , &c. as in the indictement . upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto hath pleaded not guilty ; and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and his country which country you are . your charge is to enquire whether he be guilty of this felony and murther whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty . if you find that he is guilty , you are to enquire what goods or chattels , lands or tenements he had at the time of the felony and murther committed , or at any time since . if you find him not guilty , you are to enquire whether he f●ed for it ; if you find that he fled for it , you are to enquire of his goods and ▪ chattles as if you found him guilty , if you find him not guilty , nor that he did fly for it , you are to say so , and no more ; and hear your evidence . cl. of ar. cryer , call mary milward , joseph dueley , john dueley , jane warren , sarah dueley , anne gann , anne gesson , anne warren , elizabeth harper , mary edwards , john gamble , john sykes , robert robone , richard eades , richard marryott , samuel reve● , henry milward , squire dalley , william brown , francis hobbs . who were all sworn . cl. of ar. set mary milward up . mr. justice dolben . what have you to say , woman , against cole the prisoner , concerning the murther of dr. clenche ? mrs. milward . my lord , my husband declar'd to me , that he and mr. cole were in the coach with dr. clenche , and that they two kill'd dr. clenche . mr. j. dolben . that 's no evidence at all what your husband told you ; that won't be good evidence if you don't know somewhat of your own knowledge . mrs. milward . my lord , i have a great deal more that my husband told me , to declare . mr. j. dolben . that won't do : what if your husband had told you that i kill'd dr. clenche , what then ? that will stand for no evidence in law : we ought by the law to have no man call'd in question , but upon very good grounds and good evidence , upon oath , and that upon the verdict of twelve good men. have you any body that can prove any thing against cole , or does it all arise barely from your husband's report ? mrs. milward . my husband declared that he and mr. cole were to go under a pretence to rob the doctor , and so to take their opportunity to kill him ; and the first time they call'd at doctor clenche's , he was not within , but the second time they went he was within , and then they did the murther . mr. justice powel . when dy'd your husband mistriss ? mrs. milward . the d. of may last , sir , mr. j. dolben . here hath been two or three sessions since that time , why did not you take up cole about it before now ? mrs. milward . i did not know where to find him . mr. j. dolben . why , then you should have gone to a magistrate , and told him of it , and have taken some advice about it . mrs. milward . i did assoon as i had found mr. cole . mr. j. dolben . your business had been to have discover'd this to mrs. clenche , and she should have look'd after cole ; is mrs. clenche here ? sir will. ashurst . here is her brother-in-law , mr. j. dolben . do you prosecute cole upon this indictment mr. wise . no my lord , i do not , mrs. milward is the prosecutor , and she charged mr. cole with the murther of my brother dr. clenche ; and she told my sister clenche , that mr. milward her husband confessed and said sometime before his death , that he and mr. cole murther'd dr. clenche in a coach ; and mrs. milward said ▪ that she had sufficient evidence against mr. cole for it , and my sister clenche told mrs. milward that mr. harrison murther'd dr. clenche in a coach , together with another person , which my sister clenche said , she believed was the said mr. milward , husband of the said mrs. milward ; and that she had a warrant against him , the said mr. milward , upon suspicion for it , but could not take him , and that she suspected that there were other persons contrivers or concerned in it ; who were set down at the blue-boar's head ale-house near clements-inn , by mr. gamble a coach-man out of his coach , together with the said mr. milward in their return from dr. clenche's house that night he was murder'd ; and , my lord , by my sister clenche's order , i went with mrs. milward to all her witnesses , and took notes of their evidence , and i went with several of them to my lord chief justice holt's chamber , before whom they gave in their informations upon oath about it , and when i had done it , i told mrs. milward i could find no evidence that she had against mr. cole , more than that he was at dr. clenche's house , and at the said blue-boar's-head ale-house with mr. milward , and another person , that night dr. clenche was murdred , and so he might be concern'd in the contrivance of it ; whereupon mrs. milward was dissatisfied , and said , she was not able to prosecute him for it ; so my sister said to mrs. milward , that she might if she would preferr an indictment against him for it , and that she would pay for it , and other charges about it , which she did ; and mrs. milward hath a note of the names of all her witnesses , and may call them . sir rob. clayton , did not you lie at cole's house , mistress ? mrs. milward . yes , sir , i did . mr. j. dolben . why did not you take him then ? mrs. milward . because he absconded himself , and gave out that he was gone to sea. mr. j. dolben . was there no quarrel betwixt cole and you about your goods ? mrs. milward . no , my lord , i had no quarrel with him . mr. j. dolben . because you did not do it sooner , have you not been troubled with your husbands ghost ? tell the jury the story : we have heard on 't , but i am afraid they will laugh at you . mrs. milward . that was very true , my lord. mr. j. dolben . well if you have any thing else to say , that is material , speak , otherwise my brother and i are of opinion , that what you have already offer'd is no evidence . mrs. milward . my lord , here is a coach-man or two , that can acquaint your lordship of the matter of fact , better than i can . cl. of ar. cryer , call john gamble the coach-man ( who stood up . ) mr. j. dolben . you , coach-man , do you know the prisoner ? mr. gamble . no , my lord , i do not know him . mr. j. dolben . look upon him , do you know him or no. mr. gamble . no truly , my lord , i do not know him . mr. j. dolben . why ! look you , woman , he does not know him ; you coachman , the story is well know , therefore i ask you again upon your oath , if that prisoner at the bar be one of the three persons , that you carried to the blue boar's head on the back-side of st. clements , that night dr. clenche was murder'd . mr. gamble . indeed , my lord , i cannot be positive whether he be one of them or no. i took up in cheap-side three men into my coach , and set one of them down at grays inn , and drove the other two to dr. clenche's house that night he was murder'd , and he was not at home , and afterwards the man i had set down , came in again , and i set them all down at the blue boar's-head ale-house near clement's inn gate , about eight a clock at night . cl. of arr set up w. brown servant at the blue bear's-head . mr. j. dolben . hark you , is this one of the three men that the coach man set down at your master's house that night dr. clenche was murder'd . will. brown. yes , my lord , it is . mr. j. dolben . what time did they come to your house ? will. brown. they came about eight a clock at night , and this man and the other stayed till after a eleven a clock ; only milward went out and returned presently , and then immediately he went out again , which was before nine a clock , and return'd not until eleven a clock or after . mr. j. dolben . what time was dr. clenche kill'd ? will. brown. about ten a clock , or betwixt ten and eleven as i think . mr. j. dolben . who went out first , only milward ? will. brown. only mr. milward , my lord , but this man stayed all the time , till eleven a clock at night , and another who went by the name of harper , as i am since informed . mr. j. dolben . why then this man could not be in the coach when dr. clenche was murdred , so harrison and milward kill'd the doctor in all probability , for he says , this man at the bar , and another , stay'd at his masters house till after eleven a clock . will. brown. my lord , when milward came back he brought a couple of men with him in soldiers habit about eleven of the clock at night . mrs. milward . my husband told me , that mr. cole and he went out of the house , and left mr. harper behind . mr. j. dolben . but this man swears , that the prisoner did not go out of the house till eleven a clock at night , and they were set down about eight of the clock , and dr. clenche was found kill'd a little after ten at night , and that milward went out , and then came in again about eleven a clock , and brought two men with him ; 't is to be fear'd he had been killing dr. clenche in that time ; have you any more to say , if this man says true , nothing can be said more . mrs. milward . speak what was done , when they came to drink the ●ot of ale , mr. brown. mr. j. dolben . i would fain know , mistress , who set you on upon this business ? is there not some money promis'd you ? it was not the fear of your husband's ghost that put you upon it , i am afraid . mrs. milward . i am much wronged , my lord , i know nothing of any money offer'd me . mr. j. dolben . what say you more ? will. brown. my lord , mr. milward being at my master's house that night dr. clenche was kill'd , desired me to make a fire in the same room the next morning , and that he would come again then ; and i made a fire accordingly , but he came not then , nor afterwards at any time to my knowledge , but on a sunday night about a fortnight after came the two persons , that came with mr. milward in the coach to my masters house that night dr. clenche was murdred , and my master being above stairs , i sent him word , that the two men were there who were there that night that the doctor was murdred , and they inquired for mr. milward , saying , he promised to meet them there , and he not being there , before my master could come down , they paid for the pot of drink and went away . mr. j. dolben . when they came together to the blue-boar's-head they had some evil design , no doubt , but if it be true that those two men staid from eight a clock till eleven , then it could not be this man that murder'd dr. clenche ; but hark ye , fellow , you say , there were three persons , whereof cole was one , and milward the other , who was the third ? will. brown. i do not know his name , my lord , otherwise than as i have since heard . mrs. milward . the other man's name was harper . mr. j. dolben . you know nothing but what your husband told you , and 't is most probable that harrison and he did the murder , for that it appears that the prisoner at the bar is not the man that kill'd the doctor , that 's plain . have you any more . mrs. milward . about a fortnight after the murder was done , they came to inquire for my husband at the blue boar's-head , and whilst the tapster went to tell his master , they left their money for the drink and went away , and would not be seen . mr. j. dolben . what if they had run away , what then ? if they were at the blue-boar when dr. clenche was kill'd , they could not kill him . mrs. milward . his master says , that they were in the house , and out of the house , very often , call mr. dalley the master . who appear'd and stood up . mr. dalley . my lord , two of them were not out of the house all the night , i am not positive that this is the man that came in with milward , but those two men that came in with him , never went out at all until after eleven a clock at night , but only milward went out between eight and nine , and returned about eleven a clock . mr. j. dolben . what do you say to this , woman ? your husband told you that the prisoner was one of the two , this witness cannot say he was one , but says positively those two men never went out till eleven a clock , and from st. clements danes to leaden-hall-street is not to go in and out , they must take a great deal of time to go thither and back again . hark you , mr. dalley , you say that those two men that milward left , never went out of your house till after eleven a clock , you are sure on 't . mr. dalley . no , my lord , they did not go out . mr. wise . mrs. milward hath two witnesses that can tell somewhat more of the matter , concerning her husband 's being concern'd in the murder . mrs. milward . my husband told me , that the coach-man took them up not far from chancery-lane end , and that mr. cole laid hands upon the dr. in the middle of holbourn . cl. of ar. cryer , call john sykes the coach-man ; who stood up . mr. sykes . my lord , i took up two men in fleet-street , about fetter-lane end . mr. j. dolben . what manner of men were they ? what cloths had they on ? mr. sykes . my lord , one of them had a light coloured periwig on , and the other was in sad colour'd cloths , and lank hair , but i cannot be positive that this is one of them : they asked me if i knew dr. clenche of brownlow-street ? i told them , that i did not know the dr. but i knew the street : and they bid me drive thither ; and when i came to the street's end , they sent me to the doctor 's house , and bid me tell him , that two gentlemen were at the street's end in a coach , who desired him to go with them to one that was not well , so the doctor came presently after me , and when he was in the coach , they bid me drive to leaden-hall street , and when i came about holbourn-bars they bid me drive faster , and when i came to leaden-hall-market , they bid me drive to algate , and i drove through the gate to the pye-tavern , and when i had turned my coach , they bid me ask for one hant a chyrurgeon , but he was not there ; and then i told them the gate was shut , and one of them put his hand out of the coach and gave the watch-man six pence to open the gate , and then i drove back again to leaden-hall-market , and there they bid me stop again , and one of them gave me half a crown to buy a fowl , and i went a little way from the coach , and one of them call'd me back again , and gave me a shilling more , and bid me bring a couple , and he bid me ask for one hunt a poulterer ; i went all over the market , but i could find no such man , so at length i bought the fowls of another man , and would have had the man gone with me to my coach , but he would not ; then i came to my coach side , and found the door open , and i found the doctor sitting at the bottom of the coach with his head against the cushion , and the two men gone , and one of them seemed to be in drink when i took them up , and i thought him to be that man fallen asleep , and that the doctor and the sober man were gone to the person that was not well , so then i call'd the watch , and found the doctor dead , and then it was about half an hour after ten a clock at night . mr. j. dolben . then i ask you , was that one of the men ? mr. sykes . i cannot say it , my lord , i don't know him . mr. j. dolben . what time of night was it that you took them up at fetter lane end ? mr. sykes . it was about nine a clock , somewhat after . mr. j. dolben . why then , they say , that this man never stir'd out of the house from eight a clock till eleven , this man can't be concern'd . cl. of ar. set up john dudley , which was done . mrs. milward . mr. dudley , what did my husband say , concerning the doctor , to you in the country ? mr. dudley . he came into the country presently after the death of the doctor , and he sent for me , and was very much concerned , i ask'd him what was the matter with him , and he told me , that he was come out of town about the murder of dr. clenche ; i told him , that i hoped that he was no ways concerned in it ; he told me , no , but there was a warrant out against him upon account that he quarrell'd with the coach-man that night that he carried him to dr. clenche's ; and he said , that mr. harrison had sent to him from newgate , and told him , that he would give him twenty pounds , if he could make his tryal easie . mr. j. dolben . mistress , this makes it out , that he told you one story , and to this witness another , which contradicts your story fully ; he told him , that he came away for fear , and that he was innocent of the murder ; and since that he told you , that he was guilty . well , what else did he say to you , mr. dudley . mr. dudley . he was much concerned to enquire after the gazettes , and letters , if he were in them , about the doctor 's murder , and to enquire if mr. cole and mr. harper were taken up about it . mr. j. dolben . you hear what is said against you ; what do you say to it mr. cole ? mr. cole . my lord , i know nothing of it . mr. j. dolben . no , i doubt you do , you were one of the three that was set down on the back side of st. clement's church , at the blue-boar's - head , where all things were consulted . mr. cole . my lord , there was not one word spoke about the killing of dr. clenche in my company . mr. j. dolben . were not you acquainted with milward . mr. cole . yes , my lord. mr. j. dolben . were you not with harrison ? mr. cole . no , my lord , i never saw him with my eyes . mr. j. dolben . well , have you any more to say ? mrs. milward . call mr. hobbs , who stood up . mr. hobbs . i met mr. milward in york-buildings , and he asked me how i did , and he went from me a little way , and then came to me again , and ask'd me if i would drink , so we went to the george in york-buildings and there we drank a pot or two ; and he ask'd me if i heard that he was accused about the murder of dr. clenche ; i told him , no , but he never told me any thing of this man at the barr. mr. j. dolben . what was milward ? mr. hobbs . i do not know how he got his living . mr. j. dolben . have you any body else , mistress ? mrs. milward . no , my lord , i know no more . mr. j. dolben . gentlemen of the jury , cole the prisoner at the bar stands indicted for murthering dr. clenche , who , as it now appears , was murther'd in a coach by two persons that were therein together with the doctor . the question now before you is , whether cole was one of these two ? gamble , the coachman , swears , that the night doctor clenche was killed , he took up three men in cheapside , set one of them down at gray's-inn , and drove on to doctor clenche's house , the doctor was not at home , then the third man came in again to the coach , and he drove to the blew-boar's-head an alehouse by clement's-inn , and set those three men down there , and 't was then about eight of the clock . sykes the coachman , swears , he took up two men at fetter-lane end in fleetstreet , and by their directions drove to brownlow-street , where the doctor lived , whom they got into the coach , and he drove as far as aldgate , and through the gate , and then came back to leaden-hall , was sent by the two men in the coach to buy a fowl , when he returned they were gone , but the doctor found dead in the coach ; and 't was now half an hour past ten. the question now , as i said before , is whether cole the prisoner at the bar , was one of these two men . the woman tells you , milward her husband told her , that he and cole were in the coach with doctor clenche , and that they two kill'd doctor clenche . she likewise tells you , her husband told her , that cole and her husband went out from the blew-boars-head near clement's inn , and left only harper behind . the court hath already declar'd to you , that her evidence , being only what her husband told her , is no evidence in law to take away a man's life , especially when it is single without any circumstance to confirm it , as here ' t is . but that is not all , there is a very great evidence , that what she says her husband told her , is false . he told her , she says , that he and cole went from the blew-boars-head and kill'd the doctor , leaving only harper behind . the master of the house and his servant ( witnesses which she produceth ) both swear , that her husband went out alone , and lest two men behind , who both staid in the house till milward return'd , which was about eleven of the clock . the master , 't is true , cannot say that cole is one of the two , but the servant is very positive he is , and both are positive , that the two men , that milward left-behind , continued in the house till milward returned at eleven of the clock . these two mens depositions do plainly contradict her story , and if they swear true , cole the prisoner was not one of the persons that kill'd the doctor . you have all heard , i am sure , that one harrison hath been convicted by a jury in this place for the murther of doctor clenche : if he was one of the two , then milward by his own confession ( if his wife swear true ) was the other ; but this you cannot take notice of , the record is not produced , neither hath the prisoner taken notice of it , the question is only whether cole be guilty of the murther ? which i leave to you upon the evidence you have heard . the jury having consider'd their verdict , returned , that the prisoner was not guilty . finis . the arraignment, tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge for high-treason in conspiring the death of the king, the levying of war, and the subversion of the government : before the right honourable sr. francis north, lord chief justice of the court of common-pleas, and other commissioners of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery held at the city of oxon for the county of oxon, the th and th of august . colledge, stephen, ?- , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the arraignment, tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge for high-treason in conspiring the death of the king, the levying of war, and the subversion of the government : before the right honourable sr. francis north, lord chief justice of the court of common-pleas, and other commissioners of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery held at the city of oxon for the county of oxon, the th and th of august . colledge, stephen, ?- , defendant. [ ], [i.e. ] p. printed for thomas basset ... and john fish ..., london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng colledge, stephen, ?- -- trials, litigation, etc. popish plot, . trials (treason) -- great britain. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion i do appoint thomas basset and john fish to print the arraignment , tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge , and that no others presume to print the same . fr. north. the arraignment , tryal and condemnation of stephen colledge for high-treason , in conspiring the death of the king , the levying of war , and the subversion of the government . before the right honourable sr. francis north , lord chief justice of the court of common-pleas , and other commissioners of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery held at the city of oxon for the county of oxon , the th and th of august . london , printed for thomas basset at the george in fleetstreet , and john fish near the golden tun in the strand . . to the king 's most excellent majesty . the humble petition of stephen colledge , now prisoner in your majesty's tower of london , most humbly sheweth , that whereas your petitioner being charged with high-treason , is under strait confinement , that he hath not liberty to see or speak with any of his friends or his children , and being lately informed , that it is ordered your petitioner shall come to his tryal at the city of oxon about the middle of the next month. your petitioner therefore most humbly prayes your sacred majesty , that leave may be given for mr. thomas smith and mr. robert west to come to him ; and also to have the use of pen , ink and paper , in order only to make his legal and just defence , and also to have the comfort of seeing his two children . and your petitioner as in duty bound shall ever pray , &c. a true copy , francis gwyn . at hampton-court , july . . upon reading this day at the board the petition of stephen colledge prisoner in the tower , praying that in order to the making his defence at his tryal , which he hears is to be the middle of the next month , he may be permitted to see his two children , to have the liberty of pen , ink and paper , and that mr. thomas smith , and mr. robert west may come to him . his majesty was pleased to order , that the lieutenant of the said tower of london , do permit the said stephen colledge to have pen , ink and paper , and to see his two children , and the said dr. thomas smith , and mr. robert west , and to converse with them as often as he shall desire in the presence and hearing of the wardour who attends him . a true copy , francis gwyn to the king 's most excellent majesty , and to the right honourable the lords and others of his majesties most honourable privy council . the humble petition of stephen colledge now a prisoner in the tower of london , humbly sheweth , that your petitioner having been a close prisoner ever since his first commitment , is altogether ignorant of the particular matters charged against him , and of the names of the witnesses who are to prove the same ; upon his knowledge of both which , as well the nature as the manner of his defence must depend ; and because upon the consideration of his case , several matters of law may arise as well before as at the time of his tryal in which councel will be necessary to assist him , and several matters of fact preparatory to his tryal , with which under his confinement he cannot be furnisht without the help of a sollicitor , and he is like to be wholly uncapable of receiving any benefit from the priviledge allowed by law of peremptory challenge to several jurors , especially in a countrey where he is absolutely a stranger , unless he may have some knowledge of them before his tryal . in full assurance therefore of the great justice and clemency of your majesty and this honourable board which he hath lately had some experience of , and doth with all humility and thankfulness acknowledge , your petitioner doth humbly beseech your majesty and this honourable board , that he may have a copy of the indictment against him , or the particular charges of it , that his councel and sollicitor may have free access to , and private conference with him ; and because their own private affairs or other accidents may call away some of his councel from his assistance , that mr. wallop , mr. smith , mr. thompson , mr. darnell , mr. west of the middle temple , mr. holles of lincolns-inn , mr. rotherham , mr. lovell , mr. rowny of grayes-inn , mr. pollexfin , mr. ward of the inner temple , may be assigned him for councel , and aaron smith for his sollicitor , and that he may have a copy of the jurors to be returned upon his tryal some dayes before his tryal . and your petitioner shall ever pray , &c. a true copy , francis gwyn . at hampton-court , aug . . . it is ordered by his majesty in council , that the friends and relations of stephen colledge a prisoner in the tower , shall have liberty of visiting and freely conversing with him ; and the lieutenant of the tower having first caused their names to be taken in writing , is to suffer such friends and relations to have access to the said stephen colledge without any interruption from time to time accordingly . a true copy , francis gwyn . the tryal of stephen colledge , &c. present the lord norreys . lord chief justice north. mr. justice jones . mr. justice raymund . mr. justice levyns . on wednesday the th of august , . the judges and commissioners of oyer and terminer and gaol-delivery , met at the court-house in the city of oxford ; and after proclamation for silence , the commission of gaol-delivery was read , and then the commission of oyer and terminer . proclamation was made for the sheriff to return the precepts to him directed : the justices of the peace of the county of oxford were called over ; and the appearance of the grand jury summoned to attend this commission was taken . l. ch. just . north. gentlemen , you that are returned of the grand inquest , there has been a sessions so lately that in all probability there will be no great matter to trouble you with at this time . and so i shall not trouble my self nor you to give you any charge , because we know of no business yet that we shall need you for . the court hath recorded your appearance . you will do well to be in the way either in the town or here about the court , that you may be ready if any thing should happen . 't is necessary for us to have your attendance , but we know not of any thing that we have in particular to trouble you with . we have an indictment before us , let us proceed upon that . cl. of the crown . gaoler , have you your prisoner ? gaoler . we will fetch him presently . then the prisoner was brought to the bar. cl. of cr. stephen colledge hold up thy hand . ( which he did . ) thou art here indicted by the name of stephen colledge late of oxford , in the county of oxford , carpenter ; for that thou as a false traytor against the most illustrious , most serene , and most excellent prince , our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. thy supreme and natural lord , the fear of god in thy heart not having , nor weighing the duty of thy allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , and true due and natural obedience which true and faithful subjects of our said sovereign lord the king towards him our said soveraign lord the king , should and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing and machinating , and with all thy strength intending the peace and common tranquillity of our said soveraign lord the king of this kingdom of england to disturb , and sedition and rebellion , and war against our sovereign lord the king , within this kingdom of england to move , stir up and procure ; and the cordial love , and true and due obedience which true and faithful subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , towards him our said soveraign lord the king should and of right ought to bear , wholly to withdraw , put out and extinguish , and him our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring , and put the tenth day of march , in the three and thirtieth year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. at oxford , in the county of oxford , falsly , maliciously , subtilly and traiterously , did purpose , compass , imagine , and intend sedition and rebellion within this kingdom of england , to move , stir up , and procure , and a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king to procure and cause , and our said soveraign lord the king from his regal state , title , power and government of his kingdom of england , to deprive , depose , cast down and disinherit ; and him our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , and the government of the said kingdom at thy will and pleasure to change and alter , and the state of all this kingdom of england , in all its parts well instituted and ordained , wholly to subvert and destroy , and war against our said soveraign lord the king , within this kingdom of england to levy ; and thy said most wicked treasons and trayterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid to fulfil and perfect , thou the said stephen colledge the said tenth day of march , in the three and thirtieth year of the reign of our said soveraign lord the king with force and arms , &c. at oxford aforesaid , in the county of oxford aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devilishly and traiterously did prepare arms and warlike offensive habiliments to wage war against our said soveraign lord the king. and thy self in warlike manner for the purposes aforesaid , then and there falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devilishly and traiterously didst arm , and one edward turbervill , and other subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , to arm themselves , to perfect thy traiterous purposes aforesaid , then and there advisedly , maliciously and trayterously didst incite and advise . and further , then and there falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devilishly and traiterously didst say and declare , that it was purposed and designed to seize the person of our said soveraign lord the king at oxford aforesaid , in the county of oxford aforesaid . and that thou the said stephen colledge in prosecution of thy traiterous purpose aforesaid , wouldst be one of them who should seize our said soveraign lord the king at oxford aforesaid in the county aforesaid . and that thou the said stephen colledge thy said most wicked treasons and traiterous imaginations , compassings and purposes aforesaid the sooner to fulfill and perfect , and discords between our said soveraign lord the king and his people to move , cause and procure , then and diverse times and dayes as well before as after at oxford aforesaid in the county of oxford aforesaid in the presence and hearing of diverse leige subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , then and there being present , falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devillishly and traiterously didst say and declare , that nothing of good was to be expected from our said soveraign lord the king , & that our said soveraign lord the king did mind nothing but beastliness and the destruction of his people : and that our said soveraign lord the king did endeavour to establish arbitrary government and popery against the duty of thy allegiance , against the peace of our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statutes in this case made and provided . how say'st thou stephen colledge , art thou guilty of this high treason whereof thou standest indicted and hast been now arraigned , or not guilty ? colledge . my lord , i do desire , if it please your lordship , to be heard a few words . l. ch. just . look you mr. colledge , the matter that hath been here read unto you is a plain matter , and it hath been read to you in english , that you may understand it . 't is an indictment of high treason ; now you must know , that no plea can be received to it , but either guilty or not guilty as to the fact ; if you can assign any matter in law , do it . colledge . will you please to spare me , that i may be heard a few words . i have been kept close prisoner in the tower ever since i was taken : i was all along unacquainted with what was charged upon me . i knew not what was sworn against me , nor the persons that did swear it against me , and therefore i am wholly ignorant of the matter . i do humbly desire , i may have a copy of the indictment , and a copy of the jury that is to pass upon me , and that i may have councel assigned me , to advise me , whether i have not something in law pleadable in bar of this indictment . l. ch. just . these are the things you ask , you would have a copy of the indictment , you would have councel assigned to you , to advise you in matter of law , and a copy of the jury . colledge . one word more my lord , i desire to know upon what statute i am indicted . l. ch. just . i will tell you for that , is it not contra formam statut. with an abbreviation ? cl. of c. yes . l. ch. just . that refers to all manner of statutes that have any relation to the thing in the indictment that is high treason . for it may be meant contra formam statut. which are all the several statutes that are in force concerning high treason . now for those things that you demand , you cannot have them by law. no man can have a copy of the indictment by law ; for councel you cannot have it , unless matter of law arises , and that must be propounded by you ; and then if it be a matter debatable , the court will assign you councel , but it must be upon a matter fit to be argued : for i must tell you , a defence in case of high treason ought not to be made by artificial cavils , but by plain fact. if you propose any matter of law , the court will consider of it , and assign you councel if it be reasonable . for a copy of the jury , that you can't have neither , for there is no such thing as yet ; there is no issue joyned whereupon such a jury should be impannelled . when you have pleaded to issue , then we must award the sheriff to impannel a jury to try that issue . so as to what you say as to want of preparation for your tryal , we cannot enquire what notice you have had ; and yet if you had never so little time , there is no cause why you should not plead , though you were but just now taken and brought to the bar to answer it , and never heard of any thing of it before . so that i think you ought to plead presently . colledge . my lord , i am wholly ignorant of the law , i may ruine my self by mistaking the law ; i desire councel , not to delay my tryal , but only to advise me whether there is not something in law proper for me to plead to this indictment , and those things i alledged were not at all to delay the tryal , but only that i may not be wanting to my self in what i may by law have . l. ch. just . i tell you , councel cannot be assigned you , till the court be possessed of some matter to grant it upon . colledge . i had some papers my lord , that were taken from me , which i desire may be restored to me . i only plead , that i may have my birth right , and that which the law gives me ; if i may have justice , i desire no more . those papers were taken from me in the house over the way since i was brought from the prison ; they were papers that concerned my defence ; some directions and instructions how to manage my self in that defence . if you please to let me have those papers , i will not take up much of your time ; i desire to have but common justice , and that which is my right by law. l. ch. just . that which you demand , justice , you shall have by the grace of god to the best of our skill , without any partiality in the world. but you must trust the publick justice of the kingdom . we are to be of councel for you , so far as to see that all things proceed fairly on all sides . and when things come before us that are fit for you to have councel upon , you shall have councel assigned you ; for we are tender of the life of a man , as well as of the life of the king , and of the publick justice of the kingdom . but this is no reason why you should not now plead . for the papers you speak of , we will take an examination of them afterwards . if they were papers that are necessary for your defence upon your tryal , in gods name you must have them restored to you , but we know not which way you came by them , nor what they are . colledge . they were taken from me just now under the pretence of bringing them to your lordship . l. ch. just . how comes any body to give you papers ? no body can solicit for any one that is under an accusation of high treason , unless he be assigned so to do by the court. colledge . god have mercy upon any man that is so accused then ; for 't is not possible for him to make his defence , if he cannot be at liberty to look after it himself , nor any of his friends permitted to do it for him . l. ch. just . you can say , whether you are guilty or not guilty without any papers . colledge . my lord , i know not but there may be something in law for me to plead to this indictment , which i shall lose the benefit of if i plead . i humbly conceive , you are to be my councel , and as you are judges , are to proceed according to the law. you are upon your oaths to do me right according to the law. mr. just . jones . but till you have proposed a matter of law fit for councel to argue , there is no councel to be assigned you . colledge . if i had those papers i could tell what i should plead . my lord , this is one thing , i am a free-man of london , and i am not impleadable by the charter of london any where out of the liberties of the city in pleas of the crown . l. ch. just . you are indicted in oxfordshire for high treason committed here . if there be not any thing of high treason proved , done in oxfordshire , you will be acquitted . but a free-man of london cannot have a priviledge to commit treason in oxfordshire , but must be tryed for it there . colledge . will you please to order me my papers back that were taken from me ? mr. just . jones . you ought first to plead . you have a right to demand councel in matters of law , but then it must be upon such matters of law as you your self propose to the court , and the court shall judge 〈◊〉 matters of law fit to be debated : till then we cannot assign you councel . colledge . it was so in the tryal of lilburne , and in the tryal of my lord stafford , there was councel assigned to them . mr. just . jones . not before they pleaded to the indictment . colledge . did not your lordships , some of you , that are judges of the kings-bench say , that it was the right of the prisoner , to have a copy of the pannel and of the jury before the tryal ? mr. just . jones . no sure : here are two of us that are of the court , and we never heard of any such thing . colledge . pray my lord , do me right , i am ignorant of the law , and through my ignorance may mistake . l. ch. just . god forbid we should not do you right ; you may expect it from us ; we are upon our oaths to do all the kings subjects right . colledge . i am ignorant in the law , and 't is impossible for me to make my defence without the assistance of my papers . l. ch. just . cannot you tell , whether you be guilty or not guilty of this treason ? colledge . i can so , but i know not what error i may run my self into , if i should plead presently , and lose the benefit that the law may give me . l. ch. just . all matters of law are saved to you after you have pleaded . colledge . pray my lord , let me have my papers again that were taken from me ▪ cl. of cr. you must plead to the court , guilty or not guilty . colledge . shall i not have my papers after i have pleaded ? l. ch. just . we will not capitulate with you . move what you will then , but till you have pleaded , we can enter into no other business . colledge . i know not but i might plead some other thing to the indictment . mr. just . jones . propose what you will , if it be a matter in law fit to be argued , you shall have councel assigned you . colledge . pray my lord , let me have my papers again . if it were not my right to have them , or to have councel , i would not ask it ; but if it be , i would not lose what is my right . l. ch. just . you must plead first . i know not but he may be criminal that brought you those papers : for we allow no sollicitors in cases of treason . colledge . some of those papers were received from me in the tower , and were brought back to me , and taken away but to day , i desire they may be returned . cl. of cr. are you guilty or not guilty ? colledge . those papers tell me i have a plea in law , but what it is , i cannot directly tell without my papers . l ch. just . you must mention it and propose it , and then we will do what is fitting for us to do in it . colledge . i have not that method about me , nor can i directly tell it without my papers ; but 't is something of law about the indictment . l. ch. just . you are not bound up to forms of law. for if you propose the matter never so loosely , yet if it be a matter of avail , and that which the law is not clearly against you in , you shall have councel , and time to draw it up in form . colledge . i cannot propose the matter so regularly as if i had my papers . mr. just . jones . you are not bound to propose it in formality of law , my lord tells you , only let us know what it is . colledge . if i have a priviledge in law , i hope you will give me the benefit of it . l. ch. just . we will deny you nothing that the law gives you ; but we cannot give you councel it is not one particular case , but the common course of justice is concerned . without a matter of law arises , we cannot assign you councel ; if we would , we cannot in justice till you have proposed the matter which the court thinks fit to be argued . colledge . my lord coke sayes , it is the birth-right of every english-man to have councel in matters of law , and lilburne had it upon solemn argument in his tryal . mr. just . jones . what times were those ? that was before the high court of justice . mr. att. gen. if there be matter in law , it must be proposed to the court , and they are to judge , whether it be a point fit to be argued , and then councel is to be assigned you , and not till then . colledge . my lord , i know not but there may be somewhat in law for me to plead to this indictment , till i have my papers i can't tell what it is . l. ch. just . we know nothing of your papers what they are , you must answer whether you be guilty or not guilty . colledge . if i had my papers , i would answer to it immediately ; but i hope i shall not be murdered . mr. just . jones . have a care of aspersing the court. pray who intends to murder you ? mr. serj. jefferies . i remember in lilburne's tryal , that he speaks of , such words , were used indeed . colledge . my lord , i hope i shall not be deny'd what is necessary for my defence . this design is not only against me , but against all the protestants . mr. att. gen. how long have you been a protestant , mr. colledge ? colledge . ever since i knew what religion was sir ; i never was any thing else . for gods sake , my lord , let me have the justice of the nation , and what by law an english-man ought to have . l. ch. just . you must plead guilty or not guilty , or you must shew some matter that you will plead , that is proper for us to assign you councel . if we should record your refusal , you would be judged to stand mute , and sentence would pass upon you . colledge . if i have a priviledge in law as an english-man , i will not forfeit it , if i can help it , for any thing in the world . therefore i desire i may have my papers again , that i may see if i can plead any thing in law ; for if i have a priviledge by the law , before i will forfeit it , you shall do what you please with me . l. ch. just . you 'l have the advantage of all that matter that is in your papers after you have pleaded , if there be any advantage . colledge . pray my lord , order me my papers that were taken away from me . l. ch. just . they were not taken away by me . colledge . they were taken away by the keeper , under pretence to bring them to your lordship . l. ch. just . i know not how you came by them . there came one to me last night that is a common sollicitor , one aaron smith , and desired he might have liberty to go and speak with the prisoner . i told him , i did not understand till he were assigned by the court , that any could justifie solliciting for a man that is accused of high treason , nor could any be of councel till they were assigned : for a defence against treason ought to be by plain matters of proof and fact , and not by artificial cavils . but if you will propose any thing of substance as a matter in law which the court shall think fit to be argued , propose it , and then we will assign you councel . colledge . is it not my right , that i ought to have a copy of the jury ? l. ch. just . look you for that now , you cited the opinion of the judges of the kings bench. my brothers two of them that are here who are judges in that court , say , they know nothing of any such matter : but i must tell you , you have liberty by law to challenge . by your sight peremptorily without shewing cause . they are bound to look upon you when they come to be sworn , and if you have any just cause , you may except against as many more as you will. but now we that proceed upon a commission of gaol-delivery , are to proceed with expedition ; there are no particular men designed for a jury that i know of . but when you have pleaded , we shall award the sheriff to impannel a jury . colledge . if the law allows me the liberty of challenging , it does intend it me that i may challenge those persons that i think will do me no justice , but where they are strangers unto me , if i can have no information about any of them by my own inquiry or my friends , i may challenge my friends as well as my foes : and should there be any person that has a prejudice against me , and i not know it , he may chance to be one . l. ch. just . i hope they will be neither friends nor foes , but true men . colledge . i know not that my lord. mr. just . jones . this that you say as to a copy of the jury is unseasonable . there is no jury , nor can be awarded till you have pleaded . there must be first issue joyned ; and that cannot be but upon your plea of not guilty . therefore you must plead first , and then say all you will. cl. of cr. are you guilty or not guilty ? colledge . my lord , may not i have a pannel of the jury ? mr. just . jones . there is no such thing in being . colledge . i know not what to say to it ; pray my lord , let me have my papers . cl. of cr. you have heard the opinion of the court , you must first plead . colledge . i cannot plead first . i must lose my life if i must ; i neither know who accuses me , nor what it is they accuse me of : 't is impossible i should defend my self , if i have not my papers . l. ch. just . we know not what papers you mean. colledge . the gaoler took them from me , and one of the kings messengers . pray my lord , will you order them to be returned to me again : let me but see whether i have any right or no , and whether i have any thing to plead or no : when i have perused my papers , i will propose it as well as i can to you . pray my lord , let me have a fair tryal . l. ch. just . we promised you a fair tryal , but you must put your self upon that tryal by your pleading . colledge . i cannot do that without my papers , my lord. let me but have them again , and i will not delay your time at all . l. ch. just . you can tell whether you are guilty or not guilty , can't you ? colledge . if i have a plea in law against the indictment , i hope you will not hinder me of that which is my right . it is possible the indictment does not lay it right , either as to the matter of treason , or as to the place . mr. just . jones . that is upon the issue of not guilty upon your tryal . if there be not matter of fact , or words proved that are treason in this place , you will have the advantage of it upon your tryal . colledge . i know not , my lord , but that the indictment does mention something of treason , and something of misdemeanour . mr. just . jones . that which is misdemeanour , won't amount to a proof of the treason upon the 〈◊〉 . l. ch. just . if they prove no treason against you here , but only misdemeanour , i do not understand that the jury can find you guilty of that misdemeanour , for 't is another crime , and there is another sort of proceedings for it . in misdemeanour , there are no peremptory challenges ; in misdemeanour councel is to be allowed for the prisoner , but not in treason . colledge . pray my lord , be pleased to order me my papers again : i know not what to say without i have the assistance of my papers : when i have them , i shall be ready to plead presently according as i shall find i may by law. this i am sure , i have done nothing , nor said nothing of treason , and i pray for nothing but justice , and that which is my right . this is a most horrid conspiracy to take away my life ; and it will not stop here , for it is against all the protestants in england . l. ch. just . mr. colledge , you do not only trifle , but run out into very great extravagancies . who has any conspiracy against your life ? you shall be allowed to give in evidence any thing of any conspiracy against you , or contrivance against you when you are upon your tryal . now the question is , are you guilty or not guilty ? i see no use of papers that you can have as to the plea. mr. just . jones . you will run into danger by spending of time . colledge . pray my lord , order me my papers , they are in the hands of mr. murrell the goaler , and sewell the kings messenger . l. c. j. when you have pleaded , we will take it into consideration . colledge . my lord , it may be too late then . l. c. j. 't is a plain matter before you , whether you be guilty or no. you know what to answer . colledge . i will give a direct answer , after i have my papers again . mr. just . jones . you can give an answer to that , without papers . l. c. j. consult with your own heart , and there you may receive an answer to that question . mr. att. gen. mr. college ; can any body tell whether you be guilty or no , better then your self ? mr. just . jones . if you expect any papers , they ought to be framed by your self ; for by law , none can advise you what to plead . colledge . i don't expect it in matter of fact , but if matter of law arise . mr. just . jones . but this is a matter of fact , and therefore you may plead not guilty , as well without your papers , as if you had them . colledge . but if there be any matter of law , that i ought to have the advantage of . mr. just . jones . then you ought to have no advice , till they be assigned by the court : for by the law , neither counsel nor advice are allowable to you , till the matter has been proposed , and the court think fit to assign you counsel . mr. just . levinz . you talk of the priviledge of an english man ; you have all the priviledges of an english man : you are here brought to an open tryal , according to the law , and by that law you must plead . now if a man be indicted for high treason , he is bound to plead either guilty or not guilty , unless he has a matter in law to excuse him from that plea , which must be proposed to the court , and then counsel will be assigned , and if so be matter of law arises upon any evidence that is given against you at the tryal , you may demurre upon that evidence , and pray counsel of the court to argue that demurrer , and they will not deny you , but i think you must plead presently . colledge . i suppose other persons that have been tried , have had counsel before they have pleaded . mr. just . jones . but never before the matter was proposed to the court. l. c. j. it was so in the case of my lord stafford . the court made him propose his matters in law , and so it was in lilburne's case . he did insist upon a great many matters in law , and had the books there himself . colledge . i am wholly ignorant of the law , my lord. mr. serj. jefferies . your lordships are the judges of law in this case . the question here in short , is whether the prisoner be guilty or not guilty , and that being demanded of him by the court , if he refuses , let him take the consequence of it . colledge . what is that , pray sr. george ? mr. att. gen. judgment of high treason . for if a person stand mute , and will not plead to an indictment of high treason , the common judgment of pressing to death must not pass upon him , but an attainder of high treason . colledge . well if it be so , i cannot help it . i thank god i am innocent of any treason , or any such thing . l. c. j. why don't you plead , not guilty then . colledge . i do not refuse to plead , i am willing to plead with all my heart , if i may have my right . mr. j. jones . if you do not plead , you do refuse to plead . colledge . pray my lord , let me have my papers . mr. att. gen. pray give the court an account , where had you those papers . l. c. j. nay , we will not enter into any examination of that matter now mr. attorney ; he can have no use of papers to see whether he should plead guilty or not guilty . mr. s. jef. we know nothing of those papers , we desire he may answer to the question shortly whether he be guilty or not guilty , if not , we pray your lordships judgment . colledge . i had them not all from one person , they were received from my own hands some of them in the tower , and being brought back to me they were taken from me to day , let me have but one of them : the paper of instructions in point of law that i may know what is my right , i would not throw away my life , if i have any thing that is my right that can preserve it . l. c. j. you are to give a plain answer , whether you are guilty or not guilty , now for that you have no use of papers : for you can best tell whether you be guilty or not . if you can propose any matter of law that you can have to plead , do it . colledge . if i have any plea , that i may plead besides not guilty , i desire i may have my papers to consider of it , and that i may have counsel assigned me . l. c. j. if you have any such plea , tell us the matter and the substance of it . colledge . i do not know what really are matters of law , if i had those instructions that are in my papers , i could give you a direct answer presently . l. c. j. you ought not to have any advice to decline your tryal : when you propose matter of law your self , you may have advice upon it . but you ought not to have advice to decline your tryal before-hand . cl. of cr. are you guilty , or not guilty ? colledge . mr. attorney , pray let me have a copy of the indictment . mr. att. gen. apply your self to the court for it , we must receive our directions from thence . l. c. j. you have had the opinion of the court you can't have it . mr. just . levinz . you have been told nothing can be received from you , but a plea of guilty or not guilty , and the court have given you their opinion , and that you cannot have a copy of the indictment , nor counsel assigned you , till you offer something for them to be assigned upon . l. c. j. and that was it which was done in the king's bench in the case of fitz harris which i suppose you meant when you spake of the judges opinions . mr. just . jones . nothing was done there till he himself assigned the matter in law that he would plead , and then counsel was assigned him . mr. serj. jeff. mr. colledge was in the court at that time , and can tell what was done . l. c. j. if you desire the indictment read over again distinctly that you may have . mr. att. gen. ay , with all my heart . colledge . pray let me hear it again my lord if you please . l. c. j. read it over again to him , and read it distinctly . cl. of cr. thou art indicted by the name of stephen colledge late of oxon in the county of oxon carpenter , as a false traytor . colledge . i have observed one thing already , my lord , i pray i may have pen and ink. l. c. j. ay give him pen and ink , let him make what observations he can . then the clerk read the indictment through . cl. of cr art thou guilty of this high treason or not guilty ? colledge . this indictment , if i understand it , says , there was a plot and conspiracy by me and others , now i know when my lord stafford was tryed they did proceed to prove , first , that there was such a plot , and then that my lord was guilty of it ; first , that there was such a conspiracy by the papists , is it not requisite they should , first , prove such a plot and conspiracy there was , before they go to prove me guilty of it . mr. just . jones . what before you have pleaded ? l. c. j. when you have pleaded the next thing is to try you , and to give the evidence , but what way the kings councel will take to mannage your tryal , that we can't tell . mr. just . jones . but they are not to be directed by you mr. colledge . colledge . it was so done i say in my stafford's case . l. c. j. he pleaded first however , you have not yet pleaded . cl. of cr. are you guilty or not guilty ? l. c. j. do not trifle any longer , 't is a plain matter and requires a very short and plain answer . colledge . your lordships are my counsel as well as my judges , and i do desire if i have any right to plead any other matter , you will be pleased to declare it to me , for i am ignorant in the law. mr. just . jones . we have declared our opinion already , that you have no right to have any solicitor or counsel , till matter of law do a●ise . colledge . is it your lordships opinion , that i have no plea in law. mr. just . jones . have you no plea in law ? l. c. j. he would have our judgment , whether there be any or no. mr. just . jones . you your self know best , we know nothing you have to plead . colledge . i cannot unless i have counsel , and my papers . l. c. j. there does nothing appear to us . colledge . i know nothing of the law. l. c. j. then plead not guilty , that is a ready plea. mr. just . jones . you have heard our opinion over and over again . you have as much counsel as is allowed in these cases , for every man is best judge of his own case , what to plead , whether guilty or not guilty ; you have had as fair play as ever any man had . mr. att. gen. mr. colledge has said , he knows of no plea in law he has , and therefore there is none , for de non apparentibus , & non existentibus , the reason is the same . l. c. j. in matter of fact , there is no plea but not guilty . colledge . the court are judges in matter of law , and they are my counsel . mr. just . jones . and the court have all of them declared they know of nothing in law that you have to plead . colledge . is not counsel to be allowed to one under my circumstances ? l. c. j. if you have any thing for counsel to be assigned upon , you shall have them . colledge . if i am ignorant of that , and cannot propose it , shall i not have the assistance of counsel . mr. just . jones . no , we have told you the law plainly , and that which is frequent in practise in like cases , and you must be contented with the same measure . colledge . my lord , i am ignorant of the law. l. c. j. then rely upon the fact and plead not guilty . colledge . but if i have a right to any point in law let me have it . mr. just . jones . you have a right if you will propose any matter of law , but we cannot propose it for you mr. att. gen. mr. colledge , no man ought to propose your plea for you , ignorantia juris non excusat . colledge . shall my ignorance destroy me , mr. attorney ? mr. sol. gen. you have heard the opinion of the court , you have a right to propose any other plea that you can your self , but you have no right to ask counsel before you have pleaded . mr. serj. jefferies . if mr. colledge have such a thing as a solicitor , i shall crave leave to put that solicitor in mind of the case of one that was indicted of high treason for soliciting for one that was accused of high-treason . mr. att. gen. we shall talk of that by and by ? l. c. j. the same methods are used in your case , as are in all cases of the like nature , as far as my knowledge reacheth . colledge . if i have a right to the law i must not lose it for my own ignorance of the law , but if you deny me both my counsel and my papers , you take away the means of my coming to that right , and make me uncapable of making my defence . l. c. j. you have been told you must plead before you do any thing . colledge . this is the person , ( pointing to a person by him ) that had the papers . be pleased to command him , that i may have them again ; he said he had order to take them from me , and bring them to your lordship . l. c. j. i know of no use you could have of any papers , to plead guilty or not guilty . mr. sol. gen. if there be in those papers advice in matters of law , that you have been told you ought not to have , till the court has assigned you counsel to give you advice . colledge . then if there be a right in law , and a priviledg which i ought to have ▪ i must lose it by my being ignorant of it , and have no one to advise me about it neither . l. c. j. you may propose it , if you have any , if not you must plead to the indictment . mr. serj. jefferies . my lord , it has not been usual for us , that are of the kings counsel , to enter into dialogues with prisoners at the bar. the first thing that is to be done in such cases , is for the prisoner to plead guilty , or not guilty , or to offer something to the court that may be a matter in law fit to be debated ; and this we pray may be done in this case , and that the prisoner may plead presently , or else we desire your judgment . colledge . pray let me have my papers again my lord. l. c. j. you go in a circle , and run round from one thing to another , and will receive no answer . we have told you our opinion , and we must tell you , that tho you hold long discourses , yet you will be judged lost and mute if you plead not a legal plea. therefore you must plead guilty , or not guilty , or offer something that may be a plea in law , and then you shall have the assistance of counsel , but you must have none till then . colledge . but shall i not have my papers my lord ? l. c. j. we know nothing of them . colledge . pray my lord order the man to give them to me , that took them from me . l. c. j. we will order no such thing . he may be a criminal perhaps that did give them you at first , but when you have pleaded we will hear any motion you will make about them . colledge . it may be i ought to plead that the words were spoke in another place , then the place lay'd in the indictment . l. c. j. you will not need to plead any such thing , for if there be nothing proved of treason that you said or did in oxford-shire you must be found not guilty . colledge . here is another thing my lord , i am indicted by the name of colledge carpenter . l. c. j. what then ? colledge . i am not a carpenter , but a joyner , is that any bar to it ? l. c. j. the addition signifies nothing , i do not know any difference betwixt a carpenter and a joyner in law. mr. just . jones . they might have indicted you by the name of labourer and it had been good . colledge . pray my lord either give me my papers or assign me counsel , or else i may throw away my life for i am wholly ignorant of the law. l. c. j. when you have pleaded we will hear any motion you will make and do that whch is just upon it : but i see no use you can have of papers to plead guilty or not guilty , which is the only question is asked you . cl. of cr. are you guilty , or not guilty ? colledge . will you promise me my lord , there shall no advantage be taken against me , if i do plead so ? l. c. j. we will make no bargains with you . plead as you ought by law to do . colledge . if matters of law arise , shall i have counsel to speak to them ? mr. just . jones . yes you shall , you need not doubt it . propose any matter now fit to be argued , and you shall have counsel to it . colledge . i am not capable of doing it . i know not when i have any right . mr. just . jones . the court is of counsel to you . colledge . if you are my counsel , then have i any plea in law to make ? mr. just . jones . you have heard the indictment read , what say you ? for you must propose the matter . l. c. j. we know of none but guilty , or not guilty , if you can tell of any do . colledge . i pray i may have my papers again ; if there be no other plea for me , pray let me have my papers again . l. c. j. you have heard the opinion of the court , you must plead . mr. att. gen. certainly mr. colledge , you can't be guilty of these things , you need not to scruple it , to plead not guilty sure . colledge . my lord , having been kept a prisoner , as i have been , without pen , ink , or paper , no conversation with my friends , no knowledg of the fact , and being ignorant of the law , not knowing where i have a right , nor when i have a right , if you do force me upon this plea and it cost my me life , at your doors lye it . mr. just . jones . you will lose your life , if you do not plead , if you plead not guilty , and are not proved guilty you will save your life by this plea. colledge . i am willing to plead what the law requires of me to plead , and if i have a right in law i would not lose it . cl. of cr. are you guilty or not guilty ? colledge . why , then as they have lay'd it in that indictment in manner and form as 't is there lay'd , i am not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit , by whom wilt thou be tryed ? colledge . by god , and my country . cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance , mr. just . jones . not guilty is his plea ? l. c. j. now he has pleaded mr. attorney ; he speaks of some papers , if there be any memorandums or any thing that must assist him , that is necessary for his defence in his tryal in those papers ; it will be hard to deny him them . mr. att. gen. if your lordships please to give me leave , i will give you an account of them . the messenger just now , did deliver these papers to be delivered to the court. colledge . pray speak out mr. attorney , and let me hear . mr. att. gen. when he came to prison he had none , but mr. aaron smith , the messenger informed me , did deliver them to him . l. c. j. whose hand-writing are the papers in ? colledge . he received them from me in the tower. mr. just . jones . you received them from him first . colledge . no ? mr. att. gen. what were the papers you delivered to him in the tower ? colledge . the three pieces joyned together that contains directions how to govern my self , there is another of the same purpose which instructs me to demand a copy of the indictment , and of the pannel of the jury , and those were instructions to tell me what the law allows me . mr. att. gen. here is a speech made for you that begins thus . before you plead , speak to this purpose . pray my lord i desire that may be examined , and mr. smith may be called to give an account how he came to give the prisoner those papers ; for here are abundance of niceties proposed for him to move , and there will be a strange sort of proceedings at this rate , if men go about to espouse the cause of traytors . colledge . i am noe traytor , mr. attorney . mr. att. gen. you stand indicted of high-treason . colledge . that is by a grand jury made up that morning , as i am informed . mr. att. gen. here is a list of the names of several men , of the country returned to be of the jury ▪ and particular marks set upon them , who are good men , and who bad men , and who moderate men . colledge . ought i not to have that paper my lord ? mr. att. gen. no i hope not . l. c. j. whether they are material or not material , if we should judge them not material for his defence , yet it will look like an hard point upon the prisoner , and to deliver them into an hand that they may be carried away or stifled , in case there were a crime in the delivering of them that would not do well on the other side : therefore i would have these papers put into some safe hands , that what may be for the prisoners use he may not want , and yet they may not be taken away , if there be occasion to use them upon another account . mr. att. gen. but if it please your lordship , i desire you would enter into the examination of this matter ; for i have an account from london by a special messenger that there are several persons that go up and down to procure witnesses against the kings evidence , making it a publick cause ; and here my lord , another paper which is a list of men as witnesses picked up together against the king's witnesses . l. c. j. he must have that , deliver him that presently . mr. att. gen. but my lord others have gone about and framed witnesses for him . l. c. j. you must give him the list of his witnesses , for i see not what use you can make of it . mr. serj. jefferies . this no man will oppose sure , if any thing that is delivered to him be fit to be delivered , the person that delivers it must come and own it ; but before any person delivers any papers to the prisoner , for him to make use of against the kings evidence , we desire to know what those papers mean , and who gave them . l. c. j. look you brother , we will have nothing of heat till the tryal be over , when that is over if there be any thing that requires our examination it will be proper for us to enter into the consideration of it . but in the mean while what hurt is there , if the papers be put into some trusty hands , that the prisoner may make the best use of them he can , and yet they remain ready to be produced upon occasion , if a man be speaking for his life tho he speak that which is not material , or nothing to the purpose that will be no harm to permit that . mr. serj. jefferies . with submission my lord , that is assigning him counsel with a witness . mr. att. gen. if people are permitted to go up and down and ask counsel of persons and bring it in papers to the prisoner , 't is the same thing as if counsel came to him . here is a busie solicitor and he gets advice from counsel and then he delivers it to the prisoner , 't is the first of the kind certainly that ever was allowed ; and if this be not to assign him counsel , i know not what is . l. c. j. what think you of our perusing the papers ? mr. att. gen. with all my heart my lord. colledge . if you take away all helps from me , you had as good condemn me without a tryal . mr. att. gen. you ought not to have helps to plead dilatories . college . not to help me to my right in law ? mr. att. gen. we are to go upon the fact now : and my lord i pray your judgment about them , when you have perused them . then the judges looked upon that paper that was called the speech . l.c.j. we have read enough of this to suppress it , and to examine it how this came to his hands . mr. just . jones . where is aaron smith ? mr. att. gen. my lord , here is another that is worse then that , charging the justice of the nation . pray call mr. aaron smith , and mr. henry starkey . mr. smith appeared . mr. att. gen. mr. smith , did you deliver these two papers to the prisoner ? mr. smith . doe's any body accuse me that i did ? mr. att. gen. you are accused for it . mr. smith . i desire proof may be made against me . mr. att. gen. that will be done . l. c. j. look you we will not interrupt the tryal with it , mr. smith must be taken into safe custody only to secure him , till we can examine it not as charged with any crime , but only that he may be forth-coming to be examined . mr. att. gen. you do not make a direct answer mr. smith in the case , it will be proved upon you . mr. smith . mr attorney , i know not what answer to make better then i have given ; our law says no man is bound to accuse himself . mr. att. gen. but our law says , you shall be examined . mr. smith . i come to give no informations here mr. attorney : if i did i should be then examined . mr. att. gen. here are instructions given to the prisoner , they say you gave them . mr. smith . i desire to have it proved . l. c. j. mr attorney , you will take a recognizance of mr. smith , to be forth-coming during this sessions . mr. smith . i will not depart my lord i assure you : and i hope mr. attorney will take my word . mr. att. gen. indeed i will not mr. smith , because you have broken it with me already , when i gave you leave to go to the prison , i did not think you would have abused that kindness , to give him papers . l. c. j. well , take his recognizance . mr. smith . 't is high time to have a care , when our lives and estates , and all are beset here . l. c. j. what do you mean by that mr. smith ? mr. smith . i said it not , meaning by it the court , for i declare i abhor that expression to be so interpreted , that i reflected upon the court. l. c. j. why do you use such loose expressions then mr. smith ? mr. smith . because i have been threatned since i came to town , tho i have not spoke one word in any publick company since i came . mr. just . jones . it seems you will reflect here in the face of the court , and in the face of the country , upon the government , upon the justice of the kingdom . mr. smith . no my lord , i have told you what i meant by it ; i neither reflected upon the court , nor upon the government , nor upon the justice of the kingdom . l. c. j. you should have done well , to have forborn such expressions as those were . colledge . shall i not have the use of the papers my lord : will you not please to deliver them back to me , now you have perused them ? mr. just . jones . one of them is a speech , and a most seditious libellous speech , to spit venom upon the government in the face of the country . we cannot tell who made it , but it seems to be beyond your capacity : and therefore we must enquire into it , but we do not think fit to let you have the use of that paper . l. c. j. for that which contains the names of the witnesses , that you have again : for the other matters , the instructions in point of law , if they had been written in the first person ▪ in your own name , that we might believe it was your writing , it would have been something ; but when it is written in the second person , you should do so and so ; by which , it appears to be written by another person ; it is an ill president to permit such things ; that were to give you counsel in an indirect way , which the law gives you not directly . colledge . if i am ignorant what questions to ask of the witnesses , shall not my friends help me my lord ? l. c. j. we will sift out the truth as well as we can , you need not fear it . colledge . some of those things i took out of the books my self . and if you are resolved to take away all my helps , i cannot help it , i know not that mr. smith wrote one of those papers . mr. att. gen. but mr. smith would have given four guinneys it seems , as a bribe , to the goaler , and he offered four more to let him have liberty to come to him . mr. serj. jefferies . 't is time indeed for mr. smith to have a care. keeper : it was mr. starkey that offered me the four guinneys . mr. att. gen. pray call mr. henry starkey . ( but he did not appear . ) then the court took a recognizance of l. of mr. smith to attend the court during the session . colledge . pray my lord , let me have my papers delivered to me , i cannot make my defence else . l. c. j. we are your counsel in matter of fact , and to give you your papers were to assign you counsel against law , they being not your own papers , but coming from a third hand . colledge . will you please to give me the paper that has the questions in it , to ask the witnesses . l. c. j. there are no papers with any particular questions to any one witness , but only instructions how to carry your self in this case . colledge . a great deal of it is my own my lord. l. c. j. mr. attorney , truly i think that that doe's not contain matter of scandal may be transcribed and given to the prisoner . colledge . my lord , i desire i may have that , that has in the margent of it , the case of lilburn and stafford . mr. just . jones . you shall not have instructions to scandalize the government , all that is necessary for your defence , you shall have . l. c. j. if he had writ it himself i cannot well see how you could take it from him , and truly as 't is , i had rather let him have too much , then too little . colledge . my lord , i thought i might have had counsel to have assisted me , but if i may have counsel neither before my plea nor after , i that am an ignorant may be lost by it , but can't help it . l. c. j. if matter of law arise you shall have counsel it . colledge . i know not but it might have admitted of an argument , that which if i had had my papers , i should have offered to you . l. c. j. mr. colledge , we shall not go any farther now , i know not how many witnesses will be produced either of one side or another , but 't is too late to go on this morning , and because we attend here only upon this occasion , we shall go on with the tryal at two a clock in the afternoon . colledge . my lord , you will be pleased to order the papers for me to peruse in the mean time . l. c. j. we have ordered that you shall have a transcript of the paper of instructions , leaving out that which is scandalous . colledge . i desire i may have a copy of the whole . mr. just . jones . no , we do not think fit to do that . colledge . pray let me know which you do except against . l. c. j. look you mr. attorney , i think we may let him have a copy of the whole . mr. att. gen. my lord , before you rise , i desire you would please to take the examination of mr. gregory , about mr. starkey . l. c. j. swear him . ( which was done . ) mr. att. gen. what do you know concerning mr. starkey , and what he did offer you ? gregory . when they came by your lordships permission to mr. colledge , they brought some papers which they delivered to him : and afterwards mr. starkey took me aside , and told me it was hard usage that the prisoner could not have his counsel permitted to come to him . do him what favour you can , and i shall not be ungrateful , so he clapped four guinneys in my hand , but i immediately laid them down upon the table , and would not take them . mr. att. gen. my lord , i desire you would please to send for mr. starkey ? l. c. j. let him be sent for . cl. of cr. you must go and take up mr starkey . messenger . must i keep him in custody ? i don't know him . cl. of cr. no , you must order him from the court to attend here . mr. just . jones . these papers colledge shall not be debarr'd of , for his defence , nor you mr. attorney from prosecuting upon them . l. c. j. no , we we will put them into such hands as shall take care about that . colledge . very few my lord , have appeared to do me any kindness , some have been frightned and imprisoned , others are now in trouble for it . l. c. j. well , you shall have the use of your papers . colledge . may i have any friends come to see me in the mean time ? l. c. j. they must not come to you in the prison , to give you advice ; but i 'le tell you since you move it , if my brothers think it convenient , whilst the court does withdraw , any body of your friends may come to you , in the presence of your keeper . mr. just . jones . certainly you cannot think you can give a priviledg to any friend of yours , to commit any demeanor to offer bribes to any person . colledge . i know not of any such thing . mr. just . jones . we do not charge you with it , but mr. starkey did . colledge . i have been kept a strict close prisoner , and if my friends are so kind to me , as to help me in order to my defence , i hope you will not be against it . pray my lord let me have my papers ? l. c. j. you shall have them , but they shall be put into such hands as the court may have command over ; they shall be in the sheriffes sons hands , and you shall have the immediate use of them . colledge . if there be any thing else in those papers necessary for my defence , i pray i may have it . l. c. j. the speech is not fit for you , what other papers would you have ? colledge . another paper there is , that is something of law. mr. just . jones . nothing but libellous , and what is a scandal to the government . mr. att. gen. you are to have nothing of matter of law , but what you are to propose your self . colledge . if you take away all my helps i cannot propose any thing . mr. serj. jefferies . to allow you those papers is to allow you counsel by a side wind. l. c. j. look you the papers of instructions shall be delivered to the sheriff's son , who shall let you peruse it in this interval and make use of it in your tryal , but it must be in safe custody to be used upon further occasion as the kings attorney shall think fit . then the court adjorn'd till in the afternoon . post meridiem . at a clock the court returned , and proclamation was made for attendance , and for the vnder-sheriff to return his jury . colledge . my lord , ought not i to have a copy of this jury ? l. c. j. no , they are to look upon you as they come to be sworn , and then you are to challeng them . cl. of cr. stephen colledge , hold up thy hand , and hearken to the court ; those good men that you shall hear called , and personally appear , are to pass , &c. colledge . pray sr. let the way be clear , that i may see them . cl. of cr. ay , ay. colledge . pray sr. how many are there of the jury that appear ? mr. att. gen. there are enough . cl. of cr. make proclamation for information ( which was done . ) cl. of cr. henry standard , ( who was sworn . ) richard croke ( who was challenged by the prisoner , ) william bigg ( challenged . ) mr. just . jones . do you challenge him peremptorily , or with cause ? l. c. j. if he do not shew cause , it must be supposed it is peremptory . colledge . i suppose he was upon the grand-jury . l. c. j. that would be a chalenge with cause . mr. bigg . no , i was not . colledge . then i do not challenge him ; i know him not . ( he was sworn . ) cl. of cr. thomas marsh , ( challenged . ) thomas martin , ( did not appear . ) gabriel merry , ( being almost a hundred years of age , was excused . ) robert bird , ( sworn . ) john shorter , ( sworn . ) william windlow , ( sworne . ) edward aryes , ( challenged . ) william ayres , ( challenged . ) and richard ayres , ( challenged ) charles hobbs , ( sworn . ) roger browne , ( sworn . ) timothy doyley , ( sworn . ) richard dutton , ( challenged . ) ralph wallis , ( sworn . ) john nash , ( challenged . ) john benson , ( sworn . ) john peircy , ( sworn . ) william webb , ( challenged . ) and john lawrence , ( sworn . ) then they were counted , and their names in order , thus henry standard william bigg robert bird. john shorter william windlow charles hobbs roger browne timothy doyley ralph wallis john benson john peircy john lawrence . l. c. j. mr. sheriffe , there are a great many of the jury that are not sworn , they are discharged , let them go out of the court , and so you will make room for the witnesses . cl. of cr. gentlemen , you of the jury , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his charge . he stands indicted by the name of stephen colledge , late of oxford , in the county of oxford carpenter , for that he as a false traytor , &c. proved in the indictment , mutatis mutandis , and upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , &c. mr. north. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen that are sworn , this is an indictment against stephen colledge , the prisoner at the bar , for an endeavour to raise a rebellion within this kingdom wherein he is accused , and the jury find that he as a false traitor against the kings majesty , contrary to the duty or his allegiance , on the th . of march , in the d. year of the kings reign , at oxon here did trayterously conspire , and compass the death of the king , and the subversion of the government , and to raise a rebellion in the kingdom , and to slaughter his majesties subjects , to put the king to death , to levy war against him , and to deprive him of his royal state and government , and to alter the government at his own will and pleasure , and to accomplish this , he did at oxon here prepare arms for the carrying on the war , and excited one edward turbervile and others , to arm themselves against the accomplishment of this design , and did declare his purpose was to seize the kings person at oxon , and that he was one of those that was to do it ; and to bring the said turbervile and other subjects to his purpose , did falsly , malitiously , and trayterously declare in their hearing , that there was no good to be expected from the king , that he minded nothing but the destruction of his people , and arbitrary government , and to introduce popery . and this is laid to be against the duty of his allegiance , against the kings peace , and against the form of the statutes in those cases made and provided . the prisoner you hear upon his arraignment hath pleaded not guilty , which issue you are to try , and if the evidence for the king , which are ready to be produced , prove that which is laid to his charge , you are to find it accordingly . mr. att. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . the prisoner at the bar stands indicted of a very high crime , no less then high treason , and that too of the deepest dye ; it is for an endeavour to destroy the king , to subvert the government , to raise a rebellion amongst the kings subjects . and gentlemen , those instances that we shall give you , and produce our evidence to for the proof of that , are these . he laid his design to seize the king at oxon ; and he did not want his accomplices to do it , but they were not men , gentlemen , that were protestants , but men that were rebels in the late war , they were men of such a kidney , that he associated himself with , and these were the persons that were to assist in this attempt . in order to this he had prepared arms in an extraordinary manner , arms of a great value , for one of his condition , who is by trade a joyner ; for if a true estimate were taken of the value of the arms , i believe they were worth twice his whole estate ; he prepared a good horse , extraordinary pistols , a carbine , a coat of maile , an head piece , and so being armed cap a-pee , with that design he came hither to oxon. and you will judge whether these be fit tools for a joyner . colledge . i beseech you sr. have you any body to prove this ? if you have not , you do hurt to the jury as well as me , to speak it . l. c. j. be patient mr. colledge , and let mr. attorney go on to open the charge . i will tell you and the jury too , that what he saies further then he makes good by proof and witnesses , will serve for nothing . colledge . 't is hard the counsel should plead against me , and open things that he cannot prove . l. c. j. i will do you all the right imaginable , and therefore i do tell you again ; if they do not prove it , all he saies is nothing . colledge . but i beseech you my lord , since there hath been such extraordinary means , and methods used to contrive my death , that the witnesses may be examined apart , and far from the hearing one of another . l. c. j. that we will take care of by and by . mr. att. gen. mr. colledge . this shews your temper , you are very inordinate in your way of expressing your self . colledge . mr. attorney , i should not interrupt you , if i were not afraid this was spoken to possess the jury . mr. att. gen. i hope to prove what i have said , or every word of it shall pass for nothing . colledge . 't is impossible for all the men on earth to prove it . mr. att. gen. gentlemen , these were the particulars i was opening to you , in what manner he was armed , and how accoutred he came hither . we shall likewise shew you that he made it his business to perswade others to undertake the design , and joyn with him , and as if open war were already declared ; he gave out a sign which was a blew ribbon , a wrought ribbon with letters in it , and this was the mark and sign , they were to know one another by . this was given out by him frequently ; and that it may not seem an extraordinary thing , gentlemen , tho indeed it was a wild attempt , yet you will cease to wonder when you have heard of the exploit of venner who with a few men raised such a commotion , soon after the kings coming in , and the several exploits that have of late in scotland been carried on , by a few discontented persons . so that men of the like principles , as we shall give you an account of this gentlemans principles what they were , may well be thought to ingage in such an extraordinary exploit . and we shall prove what the incouragment was he was to have ; for he boasted of himself , that he should be in a little time a collonel . colledge . what sir ? mr. att. gen. a collonel , a great preferment for a joyner . colledge . yes it was so . mr. att. gen. we shall shew to you that this was not a sudden unpre-meditated thing ; for we shall prove that he had entertained the horridest malice against the king , that ever subject entertained against his soveraign : for we shall give this evidence , and his front will not oppose it , that he had made it his common discourse in coffee-houses , and publick houses , ( and i believe i could bring you and witnesses to it ) to defame the king and murder him in his reputation , and was one of the complices with fitz harris who lately was executed for that venemous libel : we shall prove that he justified it , and maintained it to be as true as the gospel . we shall give evidence that he carried on the same design , with that arch-traytor who was a papist ; and i believe if this gentleman were examined throughly he would be found to be one of the same stamp , and acted by the same principle ; for i think that no protestant subject would attempt such things as we shall prove to you . i believe gentlemen you have frequently heard , as none of us but have , that the king hath been traduced as a designer of arbitrary government , and his reputation blasted maliciously , and falsly , as an introducer of popery : whence comes all this generally , but out of the popish quiver , who make it their business to set the kings good subjects at variance amongst themselves ; and against their prince , by styling the king a papist as this person hath done , nay , he hath been so impudent as to report that the king was in the plot against his own life . we shall prove to you , how here and at other places he hath frequently done this ; to go further , we shall produce to you the evidence that he drew the kings picture , and exposed him in all the reproachful characters imaginable , and that the picture might be the better understood , he adds a ballad to it : and that he may not have the confidence to say this is not true , we shall produce to you a whole bundle of these papers , among those which his son made a discovery of , when they were sent to his uncle to be hid , and we shall prove him to be the author of them ; and yet that this man should have the confidence to say he is a good subject and a good protestant , when by all ways imaginable he goes about to ruin the government , and defame the king ! and gentlemen when we have given you this account by witnesses , for i would have you believe me in nothing , but according as i prove it , you will not wonder then that he should say his life is in danger , ( for so it is indeed ? ) and if any man ever was guilty of high-treason , sure he is , and being guilty of the greatest treason , he deserves the severest punishment . colledge . pray gentlemen of the jury , take mr. attorney general at his word , and remember sir , you desire not to be believed your self , but what you prove . mr. serj. holloway . may it please your lordship , and gentlemen , pursuant to what mr. attorney hath opened , we will call our witnesses , and we will begin with mr. dugdale ; who was a witness against my lord stafford , at his tryal in parliament , whose credit mr. colledge did attest at that tryal , asserting him to be an honest good man , and i believe his evidence will go in a great measure through all that mr. attorney hath opened , and when we have done with him , we hope to second him with other witnesses of as good credit , and that will say as much to the purpose . then mr. dugdale was sworn . mr. att. gen. mr. dugdale , look upon the prisoner , and tell the court whether you know him . mr. dugdale . yes , i do know him sir. mr. att. gen. will you give us an account of your knowledge of him ? colledge . my lord , i humbly desire they may be examined apart , and not in the hearing one of another . mr. att. gen. that with submission ought not to be in the kings case , tho we think there are none of them , that will speak any more then the truth . colledge . here are several of them my lord , they are all of a gang. mr. serj. jefferies . not of your gang , mr. colledge . colledge . i pray they may go out my lord , ( which was ordered accordingly . ) mr. dugdale . if your lordships please , whether or no i may deliver in these papers ? mr. att. gen. by and by time enough , when we ask for them speak your own knowledge . mr. dugdale . my lord , i have been i think acquainted with mr. colledge years or thereabouts . i have been several times in mr. colledges company , and truly somtimes he hath been mightily bent against popery ; he hath at somtimes uttered himself , because the king did not prosecute the papists according as he thought sufficiently , that the king was a papist himself , that he was as deep in the plot as any papist of them all , that he had an hand in sr. edmondbury godfry's death . this mr. colledge i appeal to your self , whether you have not said it : and in this town of oxford you have several times told me that nothing was to be expected from him , he would do nothing . mr. just . levinz who did tell you so ? mr. dugdale . mr. colledge did tell me that there was nothing to be expected from the king , but the introduceing of popery and arbitrary government , this i believe mr. colledge , will acknowledge to be true. colledge . where was this spoken ? mr. dugdale . this was spoken at a coffee-house , called combes coffee-house in this town , and at the angel-inn in this town at a barbers shop ; that day the king went out of town , we were in the the same shop . colledge . who was there besides ? mr. serj. jefferies . do not interrupt our witnesses , let us have done with him , and you shall have your time to ask him questions after . l. c. j. for your instruction i will tell you , your time is not yet come , if you chop in and interrupt the witnesses , you will disturb any man living , but your way is this , when he hath delivired his testimony ask him any questions then ; and he shall be bound to answer you , and in the mean time you shall have pen ink and paper , to help your memory . mr. dugdale . that day the king went out of town presently after he went , you and i went into the angel-inn : and we went into the barbers-shop that is just within the inn , and being charging your pistols there , you said rowley was gone , the rogue was afraid of himself , he was shirked away , and here i appeal to your own conscience , whether you did not speak it ? collidge . i know nothing of it . mr. att. gen. don't appeal to him , 't is nothing for that , mr. sol. gen. who did he mean by rowley ? mr. dugdale . the king. mr. serj. holloway . was that his common application for the king ? mr. dugdale . it was his common word concerning the king. and at other times speaking that the king did not do those things that were fair , he hath given mighty great words against him : he hath told me that there was no trust to be put in him ; for it was the people we must trust to , and we must look to arm our selves , and that he would arm himself and be here at oxford , and he told me here in the town , accordingly when i came out of the country , and he said that he had several stout men that would stand by him in it . their intention was as he said for the rooting out of popery , by which name he alway termed the church that is now established by law , as to be of the same nature the papists were . this i believe mr. colledge will acknowledge . mr. att. gen. well go on sir ? mr. dugdale . and at a time when he had dr. tongue at his house , he told me that as for dr. tongue he had much a do with him , and he had been at a great charge to keep him in order , that he was forced to neglect his own business to look after him ; for if he had not done so , the rogue as he said had a mind to fling all upon the protestants that is the dissenters , for he does not count the church of england to be so ; that he had much a doe to keep him in order ; for he had said he had drawn papers to that purpose , but those papers are secured , for where they are i can't tell . mr. att. gen. who were they that were to be with him in that design of his ? mr. dugdale . he told me captain chinton , captain browne , and one dr. lewes , and he brought them into town here , when he came with him . mr. att. gen. to what purpose did he bring them ? mr. dugdale . expecting there would be a rising . mr. jones . did he tell you that here ? mr. dugdale . yes , the friday , i think it was , after the parliament first sat . mr. jones . how did he express himself ? what they had to do . mr. dugdale . they were to be here , in case there were any rising which he expected . mr. jones . what use did he say he would make of them ? mr. dugdale . for the defence of the protestant religion , against the king and all his adherents . mr. jones . what did he say he would do to the king ? i would not lead you . mr. dugdale . he did not say what particularly . mr. jones . what did he say if the king did not yield to the parliament ? mr. dugdale . if the king did not yield to the parliament , he should be forced to it . mr. jones , where did you hear him say that ? mr. dugdale . at oxford . mr. serj. holloway . did you hear him declare this at london ? mr. dugdale . he did say at london , he expected there would be some thing done at oxford , and that he would go thither with his horse and arms , and those gentlemen i named before would go with him . and , he said , let them begin when they would , he did not care how soon , his party was the greatest party . mr. attor . gen. what was that capt. brown ? did you know him ? mr. dugdale . yes , i knew him very well ; he did much frequent mr. college's company ; he was in the late army against the king. mr. serj. jefferies . did you see him have any pistol ? mr. dugdale . yes , i have seen him carry pistols about him . mr. serj. jefferies . where , in his pocket ? mr. dugdale . i saw them in the house . mr. serj. jefferies . at oxford ? mr. dugdale . yes . mr. serj. holloway . did you see them in his hand ? mr. dugdale . i cannot tell that , he had them in the house , i saw them there . mr. serj. holloway . did you see him in his silk armour about the parliament-house , the lobby , or any place ? mr. dugdale . i cannot say that . mr. attor . gen. what did you know of his delivering any marks or signs for persons to be distinguished by ? mr. dugdale . i had as much ribband from him as came to s. with no popery no slavery wrought in it , and he gave it me to distribute among my friends in the country , that they might be known by other persons that would wear the same . mr. jones . where had you it ? mr. dugdale . at london , from mr. colledge . mr. jones . where was it to be distributed ? mr. dugdale . among those that i knew to be dissenters in the country . mr. jones . were you to come to oxford , by agreement , with mr. colledge ? mr. dugdale . i promised him to come to oxford , and did so . mr. attor . gen. well , go on , what more do you know ? mr. dugdale . at london i was once at a coffee house with mr. colledge , and with some of the members of the house of commons ; it was a little before they met ; and they were earnestly talking of the parliament at oxford , and of some disturbance that was likely to happen here . and it was then fully agreed , and mr. colledge was by , that it would be the best way , out of every county , where the parliament had the best interest in the people , to leave one in every county that might manage the people . this i appeal to mr. colledge whether it be true . colledge . you appeal to me , shall i speak now , my lord ? mr. jones . no , you will remember it by and by . mr. attor . gen. what do you know of any pictures ? mr. sol. gen. pray let him speak that over again which he mentioned last . mr. dugdale . being in a coffee house with mr. colledge , there were some of the members of the house of commons by ; and speaking of a disturbance that might happen here at oxford ; it was then agreed , that in every quarter where the parliament had the most interest in the people , they should not all come up , but some remain there to manage the people . mr. attor . gen. what do you know of any pictures or papers , have you any about you ? mr. dugdale . yes , i have one thing i received from mr. colledge , that is , the letter pretended to be intercepted to roger l'estrange . mr. attor . gen. pray , what account did he give you of it ? who made it ? mr. dugdale . he told me he was the author of it himself , and he shewed me it in manuscript before it was printed ; and he told me , he got one curtis , or his wife , to print it ; but he would never trust them again , for they cheated him of some of the gain . mr. attor . gen. who was the author did he say ? mr. dugdale . he himself . mr. attor . gen. pray produce it sir. mr. dugdale . this and others he delivered to me to disperse . l. ch. just . what is it mr. attorney ? mr. attor . gen. it is a letter , and a great part of fitz-harris's libel is taken out ; it seems colledge was the author , and this is the original of the libel . l. ch. j. did he tell you this was of his making ? mr. dugdale . yes . mr. attor . gen. did he disperse them to any body else ? mr. dugdale . yes , there were some given to one mr. boson , he had some at the same time , and mr. baldwin had some . then the paper was read . cl. of cr. first q. vvhether they that talk — mr. attor . gen. pray give my lord an account what more papers and libels he delivered to you . mr. dugdale . i received one like this , i cannot say it was the same , where all the bishops were changing their hats for cardinal caps . mr. serj. jefferies . where is rary shew , for it seems he hath expounded the meaning of that . ( then it was produced . ) mr. serj. jefferies . i suppose 't is his own cutting too . mr. dugdale . i heard mr. colledge sing it . mr. serj. jefferies . where ? mr. dugdale . in oxfordshire and in oxford town , at my lord lovelace's . mr. serj. jefferies . where at my lord lovelace's ? mr. dugdale . at his house in the country . mr. serj. jefferies . who were in the company there ? mr. dugdale . sir robert clayton , sir thomas player , mr. rouse , mr. colledge . mr. serj. jefferies . you say you heard him in oxford , and in oxfordshire , and at my lord lovelace's , where is that ? l. ch. j. my lord lovelace is here himself , and hears what he says . mr. dugdale . i might mistake the county , but i heard him sing it at oxford town , and at my lord lovelace's house again . l. ch. j. where is that ? mr. dugdale . i cannot tell the town . mr. serj. jefferies . how came you there ? mr. dugdale . sir thomas player did invite me thither . mr. serj. jefferies . where is it in oxfordshire ? mr. dugdale . i cannot tell , 't is four miles from henley . mr. serj. jefferies . was my lord at home . mr. dugdale . yes , he was . mr. serj. jefferies . now for the cut then ; did he shew you this cut ? mr. dugdale . yes , he told me he would get it printed . mr. serj. jefferies . was it before it was printed then that he sung it ? mr. dugdale . yes , it was . mr. serj. jefferies . who did he tell you did make it ? mr. dugdale . he told me he was the author of this cut , and he gave me one , and we sang it together presently after it was printed . mr. attor . gen. how did he describe it to you , when he shewed it to you ? mr. dugdale . that which hath the pack on the back of it , he described to be the king ; those that follow him were topham , cooper , hughs , and snow ; and that company of men there is the house of commons . mr. serj. holloway . what was meant by the pack ? mr. dugdale . the parliament and all his retinue ; and then here is the king in the mire again , according as 't is represented in the long — mr. serj. jefferies . ay , he goes on well . and this here is the bishops which they thrust into the pack when they have got him down into the mire , and then they thrust them all away , as it is in the song , to hoot them away . l. ch. j. did he make this explication to you ? mr. dugdale . yes . mr. serj. jefferies . who were the all ? mr. dugdale . king , and clergy-men , and all . mr. serj. jefferies . where was this he explained it ? mr. dugdale . at london . mr. serj. halloway . is there any thing relating to white-hall ? what name did he give that ? mr. dugdale . yes , he said , louse-hall was white-hall , because of its poverty . then the ballad was read . cl. of cr. rary shew . to the tune of , i am a sensless thing . — mr. attor . gen. this shews you what sort of man he is . mr. serj. jefferies . here you say he explained this with the pack at the back to be the king ? mr. dugdale . yes , he told me so . mr. serj. jefferies . what did he mean by the two faces ? mr. dugdale . that he was half protestant , and half papist . mr. jones . did he make any comparison between his own party and the king's party ? mr. dugdale . he said they were but an handful to them . mr. jones . to whom ? mr. dugdale . to his party , that was the dissenters . mr. attor . gen. speak that out . mr. dugdale . that their party was but a handful to theirs . mr. attor . gen. theirs and theirs , who did he mean ? mr. dugdale . he meant the dissenters , for the church of england he reckoned among the papists . l. ch. j. tell us the words he said . mr. dugdale . he said , his party was the true church of england , and that which is established by law , were but protestants in masquerade . mr. jones . tell us when he made the comparison , what words he did use , and upon what occasion . mr. dugdale . when he perceived the king at oxford would not yield to the house of commons , he said , let him begin as soon as he would , he did not care how soon he did begin , for their party , meaning the king and his party , was but an handful to him and his party , calling them the true protestants , the others were protestants in masquerade . mr. attor . gen. what did he desire you to do ? to be assisting in any thing ? mr. dugdale . he always desired me to be true of that side , he hoped i was , and to get good arms for my self . mr. serj. holloway . did he in oxford desire this of you ? mr. dugdale . no , he did not . mr. sol. gen. for what purpose did he desire you to arm your self ? mr. dugdale . he said , the king had a design on the people to introduce popery and arbitrary government , and he expected every day when they would begin , and the sooner the better , he would be provided for them . mr. jones . was that in oxford ? mr. dugdale . he spoke it in oxford , and in the city too . mr. jones . did he tell you of any that were listed ? mr. dugdale . he spoke of capt. brown , and capt. clinton , and don lewes , and abundance more he said he had . mr. jones . did he tell you he had them here ? mr. dugdale . yes , about forty of them were there he said . mr. serj. holloway . did he tell you of any that were listed , in order to the coming down of the parliament at oxford ? mr. dugdale . not listed , but were intended to come down ; and at oxford he told me they were come down . mr. just . jones . were you in their company in oxford here ? mr. dugdale . yes , i was . mr. just . jones . in the company of whom ? name them . mr. dugdal . of capt. brown , don lewes , and several others of that gang ; i know not their names , but i know their faces . mr. sol. gen. did he take notice to you that they were come down . mr. dugdale . yes . mr. sol. gen. to what purpose . mr. dugdale . he expected there would be a rising in oxford , and to this purpose ; mr. colledge was one that debated it at richard's coffee house , and it was to be carried from thence to the king's-head club , whether it were not best to leave a parliament man in every county ? mr. attor . gen. where was this ? mr. dugdale . this was at richard's coffee house in london , against they met here . mr. attor . gen. we could give you an account of a volume of these things , abundance of scandalous pamphlets , both songs , libels , and ballads , that were made by this gentleman , and all seized in his custody . mr. jones . but he sung this libel ? mr. attor . gen. all these , gentlemen , ( shewing a great bundle ) were to be dispersed over england . mr. serj. jefferies . it was it seems expounded and sung by the prisoner at the bar ; he gave you the ballad here at oxford , you say , mr. dugdale . mr. dugdale . no , i heard him sing it here . mr. jones . pray , mr. dugdale , what was the use was to be made of this ballad ? mr. attor . gen. come go to the next , we call this evidence to shew you the malice of the man. colledge . pray , my lord , let me ask some questions of mr. dugdale . mr. serj. jefferies . ay , now let the prisoner ask his questions ( to do him right ) before we go to another witness . mr. dugdale . my lord , i have a word or two more about a libel in manuscript , that very day the sheriffs were to be chosen ; it was to be printed , and he told me the printer durst not print it , it was so dangerous . mr. serj. jefferies . what was it , can you remember any part of it ? mr. dugdale . no , but it was the worst i ever heard in my life against the king and government . l. ch. j. now ask him what questions you will. colledge . pray , when was the first time you gave this evidence ? mr. dugdale . truly , mr. colledge , i don't keep an account of time , i cannot give an account of time. mr attor . gen. as near as you can , tell him . mr. dugdale . i cannot tell whether it might be in june , i think it was . colledge . how long before i was taken ? mr. dugdale . it might be about the time you were taken . colledge . pray , who did you give it before ? mr. dugdale . i gave to sir lionel jenkins . colledge . where did you swear these particulars were done then ? mr. dugdale . what was done in the city , i swore to be done there . colledge . what city ? mr. dugdale . london ; the same words were said in the city of london , and over-again here . i have repeated , for the most part , only the words you said here , but more was in the city than here . colledge . did you swear then , that the words you swear now were spoken at london ? mr. dugdale . it may be we might not name oxford then . mr. serj. jefferies . he says well , it might not be named then . colledge . then you did give in your information , that i spoke these words at oxford . mr. dugdale . i was not examined about what was done at oxford ; but i believe i have heard you speak the same words to me at my lord lovelace's , but i do not know what county that is in . colledge . i ask you positively , whether you did not swear that what you now say was spoken at oxford , was spoken at london . mr. dugdale . i did not name oxford then . colledge . but did not you say that was done at london , that now you say was done here . mr. dugdale . truly , you said them both at london , and here . colledge . pray , mr. dugdale , what had you to give this your information ? mr. dugdale . truly i can't say i have received the worth of a groat . colledge . nor was ever promised any thing ? mr. dugdale . no , i never received any thing , nor ever was promised , but only what the king gave me for going down into the country for my charges . mr. attor . gen. was that the same allowance you had when you were witness for the popish plot ? mr. dugdale . yes . mr. serj. jefferies . have you any other allowance than what you had before , when you gave evidence at my lord stafford's tryal ? mr. dugdale . no , nor have got all that yet neither . colledge . but pray observe my question , mr. dugdale , and answer it . did you not swear at london that i spoke these words there , which now you say i spoke here ? l. ch. j. pray observe , he says he did not then name oxford ; but in the giving of his evidence now , he tells you a series of what passed between london and oxford ; and i must tell you further , if a treason be committed , and the evidence prove it to be in two counties , the king may chuse which county he will prosecute and bring his indictment in , and give in evidence the facts in both counties . but you shall have your objection to it afterwards , and we will take it into consideration . i tell you this , that it may not seem to you that the witnesses speak impertinently of what was done at london ; but if nothing was done or said at oxford , then it will be taken into consideration , you shall have it saved afterwards , i only hint it now , that you may not think it impertinent . colledge . i beseech your lordship give me leave to speake one word : when he made his affidavit before sir lionel jenkins there about seizing the king , about the party i had , and the arms i had provided , ought not he at the same time to have said where i said those words to him ? but he did swear then it was in london that i said those words to him ; and coming before a grand jury of honest gentl●men in london , they were so wise and honest as to do me justice , and not find the ●il● ; so their design failing there , then they changed it to oxford . l. ch. j. you did not come to your tryal there if you had so done , then they would have asked him in particular what was said at oxford , and what at london , as 't is now , being done in both counties . but look you , if you will ask any particular questions , do , for they have other witnesses to produce . colledge . my lord , i only ask this question . whether it be not rational to think , that when he swore before sir lionel jenkins , he should not swear the words were spoken , and things done ? mr. dugdale . he hath said the same words to me at my lord lovelace's , as i lay in bed with him , and this i never mentioned but now in my evidence . colledge . what words did i say there ? mr. dugdale . if you must have them repeated , they were about the king. colledge . what were they ? mr. dugdale . that he was a papist , and designed arbitrary government . colledge . did i say so to you at my lord lovelace's ? mr. dugdale . yes , as we lay a bed. mr. sol. gen. did you lie together ? mr. serj. jefferies . yes , yes they were intimates . colledge . i had not six words with you when you went to bed , for you said you were weary , and went asleep presently . mr. dugdale . i say you said this in the morning , for we had above an hours discourse when we were a bed , and all our discourse was about the parliament and the king. colledge . where was it i said those words in oxford ? mr. dugdale . at combe's coffee house was one place . colledge . was there no body by ? mr. dugdale . no , but at the angel inn there were several persons standing by . colledge . surely then some of those heard the words as well as you . mr. dugdale . it may be so , i am sure many at london have been by , as mr. starkey by name ▪ mr. boson , mr. baldwin ; they have rebuked you for it , and i have rebuked you too . coll●dge . what words have they and you heard , and rebuked me for ? mr. dugdale . when you have been railing against the king , and said , that he designed nothing but the introducing of popery , and arbitrary government , and that he was a papist . mr. serj. jefferies . he loves to hear it repeated . colledge . what arms did you see of mine in this town ? m● . dugdale . i saw pistols ; you had a case of pistols before you , and you had some pocket pistols . colledge . none but one i borrowed of you , and that you had again ; had i ? ( pray speak ) did you see any more ? mr. dugdale . it may be there might not , but there were pocket-pistols in the room , and you had them in your hand . colledge . he swore but now that he saw me have pocket-pistols , when it was but one , and that was his own . mr. serj. jefferies . heark you now , you talk of pistols , do you know that he had any pistols in his holsters at oxford ? mr. dugdale . yes , he had . colle●ge . yes , i know that , i don't deny it . mr. ●erj . jefferies . i think a chissel might have been more proper for a joyner . c●lledge you say i was confederated with capt. brown , and other men. mr. dugdale . you have told me that capt. brown had a good allowance , and it was pitty he had not a better allowance ; and you would speak he might have a better allowance for he vvas able to do good service vvhen the time came . colledge . from whom ? mr. dugdale . among you . colledge . among vvhom ? mr. dugdale . you know there vvere several gatherings among you that i vvas not privy to . colledge . what do i know ? mr. sol. gen. you know mony was gathered many times . colledge . for what purpose ? mr. dugdale . you never told me particulars ; it was to distribute some where , i had none of it . l. ch. j. he does not say these men were concerned with you , but you said so . mr. dugdale . you know , mr. colledge , there were many gatherings of moneys . colledge . did i tell you there were any gatherings for capt. brown ? mr. serj. jefferies . he says you told him no particulars ; if you have a mind to ask him any more questions , do . colledge . pray , sir george , don't interrupt me , i am here for my life . did i tell you there were any gatherings for capt. brown ? mr. dugdale . i do not say for him , nor whom you distributed it to ; but you gathered mony one among another , and you have paid mony. colledge . i have paid mony ! when , and to whom ? mr. attor . gen. you will not deny that , you confessed , upon your examination , that you gave a guinny . colledge . sir , did you see me any more at oxford , than in the coffee-house , and at that inn , when i went out of town , and was going home with the city-members ? mr. dugdale . yes . colledge . were you in my company any where , but in those two places ? mr. dugdale . yes , i was with you at the chequer . colledge . did you come a purpose to speak with me , or had you any business particularly with me ? mr. dugdale . truly , mr. colledge , i have forgot whether i had or no , i was in the room with you there . colledge . where is that room ? mr. dugdale . i can't tell all the rooms in that house . colledge . was it above stairs , or below ? mr. dugdale . both above and below , two days i was there with you . colledge . was there any of this discourse you speak of passed there between us ? mr. dugdale . i know i was with you in those two places i mentioned before ; you called me aside to drink a glass of mum , and there was none in the room but us two at that coffee-house . colledge . sir , you came to town but on friday , i think , it must be saturday , sunday , or monday this was , for we stayed no longer in oxford . mr. dugdale . nay , i came to oxford , either wednesday night , or thursday-morning ; and i saw you and mr. hunt together the same day i came . colledge . did i explain any pictures to you at london , or owned i was the author of them . mr. dugdale . yes , upon my oath , you have explained pictures to me , and there is one picture that i have not shewed yet , which you have explained what the meaning was . mr. serj. jefferies . 't is your common trade it seems . mr. dugdale . you told me you got them done . clerk reads , a character of a popish successor , &c. mr. serj. holloway . how did he explain it to you , mr. dugdale ? mr. serj. jefferies . i would see what opinion he had of the church of england ; there are some church-men , what are they a doing ? mr. dugdale . they are a parcel of tantivy-men riding to rome ; and here 's the duke of york , half man , half devil , trumpeting before them . colledge . you have got some body to explain these things to you , mr. dugdale . mr. dugdale . you did it , upon my oath . colledge . oh , fie upon you mr. dugdale , consider what you say . mr. serj. jefferies . all this you did explain it seems . mr. dugdale . and in one place of the other libel the king was termed a rogue , but they put him in by another name . mr. serj. jefferies . where is it ? mr. dugdale . 't is in rary shew ; in the manuscript it was , now , now the rogue is down . mr. serj. jefferies . let me see it , i took notice of it , 't is , now , now the gyant is down , here . colledge . i ask you , sir , whether the song which you say was sung at my lord lovelace's , and other places , was the same with this ? mr. dugdale . for the general it is , i can't tell for every word : you sang it half a dozen times there , and the musick plaid to you . colledge . i ask you whether it was the same with this ? mr. dugdale . i can't tell for every word you sang . colledge . was there any body by at my explaining of these pictures ? mr. dugdale . mr. baldwin was by , and reproved and corrected you , that you would be so open . colledge . was there any body by at oxford , when you did hear me talk of arming my self ? mr. dugdale . they were walking up and down in the barber's shop , and i know not whether they did hear or no. mr. attor . gen. was that gentleman sworn at my lord stafford's tryal , mr. dugdale ? colledge . yes , i was sworn there , i acknowledg it . mr. attorn . gen. did he swear any thing on your behalf , for your credit , mr. dugdale ? colledge . that was by hear-say , mr. attorney , at the tower ; i know nothing of my own knowledg , but i did believe him another man than i find him . mr. serj. jefferies . no question , or else you would not have trusted him . mr. attor . gen. swear stevens . ( which was done . ) do you give my lord , and the jury , an account where you found this precious ballad . stevens . the first draught i found in his bed-chamber . mr. serj. jefferies . what , of all of them ? which is it ? stevens . the rary shew ; we found the first draught of it in his house , when we came to search his papers , by order of council , and the printer that printed the ballad , hath told me since , he had it from him — mr. attor . gen. what say you your self ? speak your own knowledg . stevens . and mr. atterbury was by when we searched the house . mr. attor . gen. well , mr. atterbury will tell his own story . stevens . i have seen you on horse-back , with holsters before you , with some hundreds of men after you , coming out of the bell-savage in ; they said , you were going to chuse parliament men : i have known you three or four years , you were joyner to our hall. mr. serj. jefferies . we call you to that particular of the papers , and you run out in a story of a cock and a bull , and i know not what . l. ch. j. will you ask him any questions ? colledge . no , only this ; do you swear , upon your oath , that you found the original in my house ? stevens . yes , sir , you will see it with my hand to it , and some more of them . mr. attor . gen. and you found too those that were printed ? stevens . yes , both our names are to them , that were concerned in the searching of them . mr. serj. jefferies . you found the paper in the house ? stevens . yes . mr. serj. jefferies . that is towzer ; but have you the original of the rary shew ? ( it was looked for , but could not be found . ) colledge . pray , gentlemen , observe , he swears that is an original . mr. serj. jefferies . no , no he found the paper in your house . colledge . i ask about the original of rary shew . mr. serj. jefferies . he says , he saw a paper drawn with a pencil that was like the original . atterbury . there was an original drawn with a pencil , upon dutch paper , 't is lost since , for we do not see it here now , which at the same time we found upon colledge's table in his bed chamber . colledge . did you find an original of that in my chamber ? atterbury . yes , we found a paper drawn with black-lead . colledge . pray , where is it ? atterbury . i did see it , it was drawn in black-lead , it was upon dutch-paper , and lay upon the table in your chamber . stevens . sure , i am , it was taken when we searched the house . colledge . i am sure you could never find the original of any such thing in my house . mr. attor . gen. then where is mr. sewell , ( who was sworn . ) sir , did you see that trumpery taken ? sewell . i had a warrant to seize mr. spur , and his brother-in-law mr. colledge . so i went down to seize mr. spur , and search his house for such papers as i should find . i could not find them in the house ; but i enquired of him , after i had searched , and could not find them where they were ; because i saw him at mr. colledge's when we first searched ; he denyed them a pretty while , but at last he told me they were in the hay-mow in the barn. when i came there , he was balling , and told me , his wife , colledge's sister had taken them down , and carried them into a room where i had searched before , but could not find them ; and the man was angry then , so we run after his wife , and found her with all these papers in a bag. mr. attor . gen. are these the same papers ? sewell . yes ; and there were two other cuts ; the man himself is about the place somewhere . mr. attor . gen. swear mr. john smith . ( which was done . ) mr. jones . come , mr. smith , do you know mr. colledge ? mr. smith . yes . mr. serj. jefferies . give us an account what dealings you have had with him , where , and when ; what he hath said about the king ; and tell us first whether you be intimately acquainted ? mr. smith . we were intimately acquainted . the first time i heard mr. colledge discoursing any thing of this nature , that is , concerning treason , or any such thing , was once at a coffee-house by temple-bar ; there i met colledge , and he told me he was invited to dinner , and he likewise invited me to it . i asked him , who provided the dinner , he told me it was one alderman wilcox , i told him i was a stranger , and did not care for going ; he told me , i should be very welcome there ; and at last prevailed upon me to go : and as i was going along , i asked him what the alderman was ; he told me , he was a man that was as true as steel , and a man that would endeavour to root out popery : said i , that may be done easily , if you can but prevail with the king to pass the bill against the d. of york . no , no , said he , you are mistaken , for rowley is as great a papist as the duke of york is , ( now he called the king rowley ) and every way as dangerous to the protestant interest , as is too apparent by his arbitrary ruling . this was the discourse between the coffee-house and the tavern where we went to dine . when we came in , i asked colledge again , whether the alderman was there ; he said he was not there at that time : i asked him , the second time , what kind of man he was ; he said , he was one that lived in his country-house , and gave freely to several people to buy arms and ammunition . and i asked him to what purpose ? and he said , it was , to bring the king to submission to his people ; adding thereto , that he wondred old rowley did not consider how easily his fathers head came to the block , which he doubted not would be the end of rowley at the last . after this discourse , the alderman came in ; we dined , and every one went his own way about his own business . mr. colledge then told me , if i would go with him to his own house , i should see how he was prepared with arms and provision . soon after i met with him , and he desired me to go along and dine with him ; and i did so , and there he did shew me his pistols , his blunderbuss , his great sword ; and he shewed me his armour , back and breast ; and he shewed me his head-piece , which , if i am not mistaken , was covered over with chamlet , it was a very fine , thing ; and , said he , these are the things which will destroy the pittiful guards of rowley , that are kept up contrary to law and justice , to set up arbitrary power and popery . colledge . what did i say , sir , about my armour ? mr. smith . thus you said ; it was to destroy rowley's guards , ( those were your words ) that were kept up contrary to law and justice , to set up arbitrary power and popery . after i had dined with him , i parted with him . a little before the parliament was to meet at oxford , i met him again ; and we were discoursing of several things , what preparations the city were making , how they were provided with powder and bullets , and for his part he would go down to oxford , for he expected a little sport there , upon the divisions that were like to be between the king and parliament . then said i to him , why , what is the matter there ? why , said he , we expect that the king will seize upon some of the members , and we are as ready as he . and , says he , for my part , i will be there , and be one that shall seize him if he secure any of the members , ( and i believe he did go down ) ; says he , you know how the city is provided : i told him , no , not so well as he ; but he told me all was very well . after he came up again , i met him another time , and he told me , he went down in expectation of some sport ; but old rowley was afraid , like his grand-father jamy , and so ran away like to beshit himself . mr. serj. jefferies . did he say , if he had not ran away he would have seized him ? mr. smith . he said nothing of that , but before , he said , he would be one of them should seize him , if he seized any of the members . after this he told me , that fitz gerald and he had had a quarrel at the parliament-door of the house of lords at oxford ; that fitz-gerald had called him rogue ; and , said he , fitz-gerald made my nose bleed ; but before long , i hope to see a great deal more blood shed for the cause . after this again , when there was a discourse of disarming the city , that my lord feversham was to come to do it , he told me , he was well provided , and if feversham , or any man , nay rowley himself should attempt any such thing , he would be the death of him , before any man should seize upon his arms. mr. serj. jeff. did he discourse any thing to you about arms to provide your self . mr. smith . yes , he did , i had an armour from him . mr. serj. jefferies . what did he say to you about it ? mr. smith . he did desire me to get me arms , for i did not know how soon i might make use of them . i had an armour from him upon trial ; he said , it cost him or s. i had it upon trial , but it was too big for me , so i gave it him back , and bought a new one . mr. attor . gen. did he tell you to what purpose you should arm your self ? mr. smith . no , he did not name any purpose , but he told me , i did not know how soon i might make use of it . mr. attor . gen. what did he say to you about any one's seizing the king. mr. smith . he told me , the parliament were agreed to secure the king , and that in order to it , all parliament-men came very well armed , and accompanied with arms and men ; and he told me of a great man that had notice from all the gentlemen of england how well they came armed . mr. jones . what did he say of himself ? mr. smith . he would be one that should secure the king , if he seized any of the members ? mr. jones . when he had been there , what did he say ? mr. smith . if they had had any work , he was ready provided for them . mr. attor . gen. but , pray , tell us again what he said of the king 's running away ? mr. smith . he said , rowley was afraid , like his grand-father jamy , and ran away ready to beshit himself . l. ch. j. if you have done with him , mr. attorney , let the prisoner ask him what questions he will. colledge . mr. smith , where was this discourse i had with you ? mr. smith . which do you mean , the former part or the latter ? colledge . the first discourse you talk of , what i told you going to mr. wilcox's to dinner ; and when it was ? mr. smith . you know best when it was , i can't exactly remember the time , but you know 't is true . colledge . where was it ? mr. smith . as we went along thither we had the first part of it , and when we came thither , you and i talked till alderman wilcox came in ; and you and i were alone together , and several persons that were there , were drawn into cabals , two by two . colledge . where ? mr. smith . in the room where we dined ; and you know there was a little room by , where some were drinking a glass of wine . colledge . you say , by two and two , the company were drawn into cabals . mr. smith . i tell you most of them were in cabals , two and two together , only those gentlemen that belonged to the alderman went up & down and gave wine . colledge . what religion are you of ? mr. smith . is it for this man to ask me , my lord , such a question ? l. ch. j. yes , answer him . mr. smith . i am a protestant . colledge . you were a priest ? mr. smith . yes , what then ? and i am in orders now . colledge . that was from the church of rome . mr. smith . yes , and that is a good ordination ; i came in voluntarily to discover the popish plot , and was no pentioner , nor received any sallary from the king. i have spent several pounds , several scores of pounds , but received no recompence . and i was the darling at one time all over the city , when i did adhere to what they would have me to do . mr. serj. jefferies . did not you swear against my lord stafford ? mr. attor . gen. were not you a witness , mr. smith , at my lord stafford's tryal . mr. smith . in that case i did give a general account of the design of the papists ; they did not then question my reputation , and i defie all the world to say any thing against it . colledge . pray hear me sir , if you please ; the first discourse that you speak of about mr. wilcox's being a good man for the cause , and contributing mony , this was when we were at dinner . mr. smith . this was that day when we went to dinner with him , you know it very well . colledge . where were the other discourses i had with you ? mr. smith . which part of them ? colledge . when i came from oxford . mr. smith . by the ditch side , by your own house ; i have two or three to prove it , we were an hour or two discoursing together about this business . colledge . what business ? l. ch. j. he tells you of two discourses , one before you went to oxford , and one after you came from thence . colledge . he does say , that i discoursed him about our coming down hither to oxford , that the parliament would secure the king , and that i would be one of them that should seize him , and this was at the time when we dined with alder. wilcox . l. ch j. not so , he says after that time , and before you went to oxford , he had such a discourse with you . mr. smith . yes , my lord , so it was . colledge . and does he speak of another time when i shewed him the back , breast , and arms ? mr. smith . yes . colledge . but he said , i discoursed then , that the city was provided with arms , and that the parliament were resolved to bring the king to submission . mr. smith . when i was in the house with him , he then said mr. wilcox gave mony to provide arms : i asked for what ? he said , it was to bring the king to submission to his people ; and then he added , he admired that rowley did not remember how easily his fathers head came to the block ; and he doubted not but that would be the end of him too . l. ch. j. he spake of several times you know . colledge . i do not know one word of it , nor can distinguish the times : but , mr. smith , the last discourse you say about oxford business , was by the ditch side . mr. serj. jefferies . the discourse about bringing the king to submission , was in the way as you went to dinner . mr. smith . the last discourse when you returned from oxford , was by the ditch side ; but both before and after you spake to me at that place about this design of bringing the king to submission . colledge . you said it was at wilcox's at dinner . mr. serj. jefferies . you mistook him then . colledge . nay , sir george , you took him not right . mr. serj. jeff. i have taken him right i assure you , and you shall see it by and by . colledge . he is the falsest man that ever spoke with a tongue . mr. attor . gen. swear bryan haynes . ( which was done . ) tell my lord , and the jury , whether you know this gentleman , what converse you have had with him , and what discourse he hath had with you . apply your self to mr. colledges business only . haynes . i suppose he will not deny but that he knows me very well ; i have been acquainted with him ever since march last , before the sitting of the parliament at oxford . my lord , there was a warrant against me for high-treason ; and i made my application to mr. colledge , and desired him to go to a certain person of honour in england , and ask his advice , whether i might supersede the warrant by putting in bayl , and carry the supersedeas in my pocket : mr. colledge told me he would go to this person of honour , for he would do nothing of his own head ; and he bid me come to him the next day . my lord , i came to mr. colledge the very next day , and i met him at his house , and i asked him what was the result , and what advice he had from that person of quality ; he bid me be of good chear , that the parliament would be , and fit at oxford soon ; that i should not value the king a pin , for , said he , the king is in a worse condition than you or i ; for you shall see , said he , he shall be called to an account for all his actions . mr. serj. jefferies . who should ? haynes . the king ; for all the world may see , says he , that he does resolve to bring in arbitrary power , and popery : and , said he , unless he will let the parliament sit at oxford , since he hath called them together , and put the people to charges in chusing of them , and them in coming down , we will seize him at oxford , and bring him to the block , as we did the logger-head his father . the parliament shall sit at guildhall , and adjust the grievances of the subject , and of the nation . and you shall see , said he , that no king of his race shall ever reign in england after him . l. ch. j. where was this he said so ? haynes . at his own house i met him ; and he and i did walk all along from his own house , over the bridge that is against bridewel , and so went all along till we came to the hercules-pillars , and we had some discourse there ; we went up one pair of stairs and called for some beef ; and all this discourse was in that very place of the hercules pillars . mr. serj. holloway . do you know any thing of any arms he had , and for what ? haynes . but , sir , said i to mr. colledge , how can this be done , 't is a thing impossible . you pretend , you say , to the duke of monmouth , that he is a fine prince , and stands up for the protestant interest : alas , said he , we make an idol of him to adumbrate our actions , for fear we should be discovered . do you think the wise people of england shall ever make a bastard upon record king of england ; no , said he , for tho' we praise his actions , yet we cannot endure him , because he is against his own father . but , said he , further , unless the king do expel from his council the earl of clarendon , cunning lory hide ; the earl of hallifax , that great turn coat rogue , that was before so much against the papists , a rascal , we shall see him hang'd , and all the tory counsellors ; except the king do it , we will make england too hot for him . colledge . who did i say this to ? to you ? haynes . yes , to me . colledge . pray , how could this be possible . haynes . yes , you knew my condition ; and i intimated to you at that time , that i was as much for treason and villany as you : but then said i to him , how can this be done ? here you have neither officers , nor men of experience , nor men of knowledg ; nor you have no ammunition , sea-port towns , nor ships . and besides , the king , said i , hath a great party in the land , and the duke of york likewise ; and for all the men of estates , and the ancient gentlemen , they will not be disturbed , and to quit their ease for a civil war. oh , says he , you are mistaken , for we have in the city barrels of powder , and we have men ready at an hours warning ; and we have ordered every thing in a due method against the sitting of the parliament at oxford ; and you shall see england the most glorious nation in the world , when we have cut oft that beastly fellow rowley ; and speaking of the king , he said , he came of the race of buggerers , for his grandfather , king james , buggered the old duke of buckingham ; and he called him captain , and sometimes the king , and sometimes rowley . mr. serj. jefferies . this was pure protestant discourse upon my word . haynes . then he railed at judg pemberton ; and , said he , let him try fitz-harris if he dare ; i shall see him go to tyburn for it , i hope , a turn-coat rogue . he was for the plot whilst he was puisne judge , but now he is chief justice , he is the greatest rogue in the world. he is like one of the pentioners in the long parliament . so one day i went along with mrs. fitz-harris , and mr. ivy , and he sent a man to me , and desired me to come to the hog in armor ; thither we came , and met him , and went to his lodgings , and there we dined . then they made some persons of honour believe , that i was a person so and so qualified , and was brim full of the plot ; and he would put me upon charging the king with the firing of london , and the murder of sir edmondbury godfrey , and , said he , such and such lords shall live and die by you ; and besides , said he , you need not fear england shall espouse your cause . but , said i , the law is like a spiders web , that catches the little flies , but the great flies run through the net , and make their escape ; so 't is with these lords , they put you and me on the danger of acting ; and when they get off by interest , a jury of men will hang us by the neck , and so i should perish , whilst others triumphed , and only be a martyr for the phanaticks . so in discourse we were talking of the libel of fitz-harris ; the devil take me , said he , every individual word is as true as god is in heaven , and , said he , if you do not joyn with fitz-harris in his evidence , and charge the king home , you are the basest fellow in the world , for he makes you slaves and beggars , and would make all the world so ; and 't is a kind of charity to charge him home , that we may be rid of such a tyrant . mr. serjeant jefferies . mr. colledge , if you will ask him any questions , you may . colledge . certainly , my lord , the thing speaks it ; he is not to be talked withal ; is it probable i should talk to an irish-man that does not understand sense ? haynes . 't is better to be an honest irish-man , than an english rogue . mr. serjeant jefferies . he does it but to put you into a heat , don't be passionate with him . haynes . no , i am not , i thank god he hath not put me into an heat . colledge . where was this discourse about superseding your warrant ? haynes . at london . colledge . when ? haynes . it was before the parliament fate at oxon. colledge . how long ? haynes . i can't tell positively to an hour or a day ▪ colledge . what moneth as near as you can ? haynes . it was in the moneth of march. colledge . had you ever seen me before ? haynes . can you deny that ? colledge . i ask you whether you have or no ? haynes . yes , i have seen you in the coffee-houses bawling against the government . lord chief just . were you an intimate acquaintance of his before march last ? haynes . no intimate acquaintance . colledge . then this is the first time you discoursed with me . haynes . oh , no my lord. one and i fell out at the queens-head tavern at temple barr , and he sat me upon the business , and john macnamarra and others , and truly i did the business for him . for we fell out and did box , and our swords were taken from us , and i went to john macnamarra and told him , yonder is such a man at such a place , now you may seize upon him . colledge . what man was that ? haynes . one richard ponre . colledge . he belonged to my lord tyrone , i think , there were warrants to take him . do you say i set you upon that ? haynes . yes , you were with me the night before , and capt. browne , and they gave us a signal , a blew ribband to distinguish that we were protestants from the bishops men . l. ch. just. when were you to make use of it ? haynes . when the king was seized . mr. serjeant jefferies . well , go on , have you any more ? haynes . but , my lord further , after he came from oxon. i met him , and said i , where are now all your cracks and brags ? now you see the king hath made a fool of you ; now you know not what you would have done . sayes he , what would you have us do ? we have not done with him yet : for , said he , no servant , no man living did know whether he would dissolve the parliament that day . i was that very nick of time at the lobby of the lords house , and there was a man came in with a gown under his arm , and every one looked upon him to be a taylor , and no body did suspect , no not his intimatest friends , except it were fitz girald , that he would dissolve the parliament that day ; but presently he puts on his robes , and sends away for the house of commons ; and when he had dissolved them , before ever ▪ the house could get down , he took coach and went away , otherwise the parliament had been too hard , for him ; for there was never a parliament-man but had divers armed men to wait on him , and i had my blunderbuss and my man to wait upon me . but well , said he , there is a god above will rule all . mr. att. gen. call mr. turbervile . colledge . hold , sir , i desire to ask him some questions . you say the first time that i saw you , you had this discourse with me . haynes . do not use tautologies , 't is not the first time i have been examined , i know how to speak as well as you . colledge . answer my question , sir. haynes . you know it was after i had made affidavit before the recorder of london , a copy of which was carried to that noble-man ; and you came from him and returned me his thanks , and told me it was the best service i could do him . i would not trouble the court with circumstantial things ; and you told me i should be gratified not only in my own property , but a reward for me and my heirs for ever . mr. att. gen. for what ? haynes . i made affidavit before the recorder of london . colledge . about what ? haynes . concerning one fitz girald . mr. att. gen. is it to this matter ? haynes . no , nothing at all . lord chief just. let him ask any questions what he will. colledge . i ask when it was the first time you were acquainted with me so much as to know me well ? haynes . as to the first time of intimacy , here is macnamarra will take his corporal oath that i was as well acquainted with him as any one in the world. colledge . pray answer me , sir , when was the first time i talked to you ? haynes . the first intimate acquaintance we had , was when you put me upon the design about fitz girald . colledge . pray sir , you go too fast already , as you are still gallopping ; where was this discourse about his majesty ? haynes . i told you before . colledge . what was it ? haynes . i went to you after the affidavit was made , and told you there was a warrant out after me , and desired you to go to that noble-man and desire his advice what i might do , or whether i might supersede the warrant . you told me you could do nothing without advice , and you would go and advise with that noble-man . colledge . my lord , here is mr. turbervile come in , they will over-hear one another ; pray let me have fair play for my life . ( whereupon turbervile withdrew . ) l. c. just . can't you answer him ? when was the first time you came acquainted with him ? mr. serj. jefferies . when was the first discourse you had with him ? haynes . in april last . colledge . you say it was before the sitting of the parliament , and that was in march. haynes . i meant in march. colledge . so indeed you said at first . mr. serj. jefferies . he never did say the day of the month , nor the month neither . mr. jones . how long was it before the sitting of the parliament ? haynes . mr. jones , truely i do not remember precisely how long it was before the sitting of the parliament , but i am sure it was before . mr. serj. jefferies . i did take it that he said it was before the sitting of the parliament , and now he says in the month of march. pray at that time he talked to you , did not he tell you of the sitting of the parliament , and that they would stand by you ? colledge . he hath said it already , you need not direct him , sir george , he goes fast enough . but you say , sir , the first time i ever was acquainted with you was in march , then gentlemen consider whether it be probable that at that time i should discourse to him after this manner . l. c. just . no , i will tell you what he says , he said the first time he was intimately acquainted with you , was in march , he said he had before seen you in coffee-houses , and he is sure it was before the sitting of the parliament ; for he tells you the discourse you had , and by that discourse it appears , it related to a parliament that was afterwards to sit. and then to give you a more particular circumstance , he says that you put him upon the making of the affidavit about fitz-girald , and so you came acquainted . haynes . ask mr. attorney . my lord , that day he was taken and carried to whitehall before the secretary of state ; he said , i do not know who it should be that should accuse me , i believe it is ivy ; as for haynes , he was taken t'other day ; he was an honest man. colledge . you say i desired you to make an affidavit , was it after that or before i had that discourse with you ? haynes . it was after . for i came and desired you to go to such a person of quality , and you went to him and advised with him ; and then the next morning such discourse as i told your lordship and the whole court of , he told me . colledge . did i speak these treasonable words after the affidavit made ? haynes . you said i must make such an affidavit concerning fitz-girald . colledge . but was this treasonable discourse before you made the affidavit , or after ? haynes . after the affidavit made , you told me this . when i came to his house , and from thence , we went to the hercules pillars . mr. sol. gen. will you ask him any more questions , mr. colledge ? colledge . did you ever speak with me in you . life before macnamarra did call me out of the coffee-house to go along with you , where you would discover a design against my lord shaftesbury's life ? haynes . i told you i never had any intimate acquaintance with you in my life before , nor did i ever speak with you before . colledge . when was that discourse , i ask you once again ? haynes . after the affidavit made . colledge . that night ? haynes . within a week or thereabouts after the affidavit made . mr. att. gen. call mr. edward turbervile . but mr. haynes , i would ask you one question , did he deliver you any ribband as a mark of distinction . haynes . yes , here it is . ( and it was shewd to the court. ) then mr. turbervile was sworn . mr. serj. jeff. pray mr. turbervile will you tell my lord and the jury what discourse you had with mr. colledge , and where , and when ? mr. turbervile . when the parliament sat in oxon , about the middle of the week , i can't be positive in the day , but i think it was in the middle of the week i dined with mr. colledge , captain brown and don lewes clerk of derby-house at the chequer inn. after dinner don lewes went out about some business , and captain brown went to sleep ; mr. colledge and i fell talking of the times , and i was observing , i thought the parliament was not a long lived parliament . said he , there is no good to be expected from the king ; for he and all his family are papists , and have ever been such , you know it , sir. mr. serj. jeff. nay don't appeal to him . mr. turbervile . said i , the king will offer some thing or other by way of surprize to the parliament . said he , i would he would begin ; but if he do not , we will begin with him and seize him ; for there are several brave fellows about this town that will secure him till we have those terms that we expect from him . l. c. just. where was this ? mr. turbervile . at the chequer-inn in oxon. l. c. just. what said he further ? mr. turbervile . he said he had got a case of pistols , and a very good sword and a velvet cap ; and i can't be positive he had armour on , but i believe he had . mr. att. gen. did he tell you he came down for that purpose to seize the king ? mr. turbervile . yes , and he gave me a piece of blew ribband to put in my hat , he had a great quantity of it . mr. att. gen. what was that for ? mr. turbervile . to be a distinction if there should be any disturbance when the thing should be done . colledge . what thing done ? mr. turbervile . i knew nothing but of your telling me of it . colledge . where was this ? mr. turbervile . at the chequer-inn in oxon , mr. colledge . you talk much and can't remember all you say . mr. att. gen. what did he discourse to you about arms and an horse . mr. turbervile . i told him i had never an horse , and nothing but a case of pistols ; he bid me i should not trouble my self , for he would get me an horse . colledge . what to do ? mr. turbervile . to carry on your design , i know not what it was , but by your words . mr. att. gen. tell what he said of it at the chequer inne . mr. turbervile . he said there was a design to seize the king. mr. att. gen. did he desire you to be one of them ? mr. turbervile . he did desire me to be ready to assist . mr. jones . and how much of that ribband had he , pray ? mr. turbervile . a very great quantity , or yards . mr. sol. gen. pray mr. turbervile will you give your evidence over again , and let mr. colledge attend to it . mr. turbervile . when the parliament sat at oxon about the middle of the week , i cannot be positive to a day ; i believe it was either wednesday or thursday i dined with mr. colledge , capt. browne , and don lewes , who was formerly clerk of derby house . don lewes after dinner went out , and capt. browne laid him down on the bed , and mr. colledge and i fell a talking of the times , and i told him , i thought this parliament would be no long-lived parliament . upon which colledge told me the king and all his family were papists , and there was no good to be expected from him . then i replyed , the king would perhaps surprize the parliament , or use some stratagem to bring them to his terms . said mr. colledge again , i would he would begin ; but if he do not , we will secure him till he comes to those terms we would have from him ; for here are several brave fellows , and many more are coming down that will joyn with it . mr. att. gen. did he name any one ? mr. turbervile . no indeed , he did not ; he himself had a case of pistols , a sword , and i believe he might have his armor on . colledge . did i discourse who were to joyn with me ? mr. turbervile . no , mr. colledge , you did not name any body to me , but capt. browne was with you . mr. att. gen. were you examined in my lord stafford's tryal ? mr. turbervile . yes , i was . mr. att. gen. was this gentleman sworn to your reputation there ? mr. turbervile . no , not to mine . colledge . pray how come we to talk of such things ? what occasion was there that i should talk treason of the king to you ? was there any body besides us two there ? mr. turbervile . no , capt. browne was gone to sleep , and lewes was gone out . mr. att. gen. it was not at dinner that you talked so , mr. colledge , he sayes . colledge . had they been at dinner with us there ? mr. turbervile . yes , and we had a legg of boyled mutton to dinner . colledge . did you stay after dinner ? mr. turbervile . yes , and i lay with you afterwards upon the bed. colledge . i thought you had said capt. browne went to sleep there . mr. turbervile . yes , but he was gone too , when we laid down together . colledge . god forgive you , i can say no more , i never spoke one word of any such discourse in my life . mr. att. gen. will you ask him any more questions ? colledge . mr. turbervile , when did you give in this information against me ? mr. turbervile . i gave it to the grand jury . colledge . not before ? mr. turbervile . yes , i did . colledge . when was it ? mr. turbervile . truly i can't well tell , i believe it was a day or two before i came to oxon. colledge . why did you make it then , and not before ? mr. turbervile . i 'le tell you the occasion . mr. dugdale told me the grand jury of london would not find the bill ; i did admire at it extreamly : for i thought every one that conversed with him might be an evidence against him ; he was always so very lavish against the king and the government . so then colonel warcup came to me and took my depositions , and then i came for oxford . colledge . what was the reason you did not discover this treason before ? mr. turbervile . there was no reason for it , it was not necessary . colledge . you were not agreed then . mr. turbervile . there was no agreement in the case , there needs nothing of that i think ; but i am not obliged to give you an account of it . colledge . god forgive you mr. turbervile . mr. turbervile . and you too , mr. colledge . mr. att. gen. then call sir william jennings . mr. serjeant jefferies . mr. attorney , if you please , till he comes , i will acquaint my lord here is a gentleman that hath not yet been taken notice of , one mr. masters , that is pretty well known to mr. colledge ; now he is a man , he must acknowledge , of an undoubted reputation , and i desire he may give your lordship and the jury an accompt what he knowes of the prisoner ; because he is so curious for english-men , we have brought him an english-man of a very good repute . colledge . my lord , i am charged with treason in this indictment ; here are a great many things made use of that serve only to amuse the jury , i can conjecture nothing else they are brought for ; i desire to know whether the pictures produced are part of the treason . l. ch. just. stay till the evidence is given , and we will hear what you can say at large when you come to summe up your defence . mr. serjeant jefferies . pray , my lord , will you be pleased to hear this gentleman . he will tell you what discourse he hath had with the prisoner at the barr. then mr. masters was sworn . mr. masters . mr. colledge and i have been acquainted for a great many years ; and we have often discoursed . i have told him of his being so violent as he hath been several times . but a little before the parliament at oxon. about christmas last after the parliament at westminster at mr. charlton's shop the woollen draper in paul's church-yard , we were discoursing together about the government , and he was justifying of the late long parliaments actions in ; and he said , that parliament was as good a parliament as ever was chosen in the nation . said i , i wonder how you have the impudence to justify their proceedings that raised the rebelion against the king , and cut off his head . said he , they did nothing but what they had just cause for , and the parliament that sate last at westminster was of their opinion , and so you would have seen it . mr. serj. jeff. what did he say of the parliament since ? mr. masters . he said the parliament that sate last at westminster was of the same opinion that that parliament was . mr. serj. jeff. pray afterwards what discourse had you about his colonel-ship . mr. masters . we were talking at guild-hall that day the common-council was , the th of may as near as i remember , so i came to him , how now col●nel colledge , said i , what do you make this bustle for ? you mistook me and said , cozen how long have you and i been cozens ; nay prithee , said i , 't is not yet come to that , to own kindred between us , i only called you colonel in jest ; marry mock not , said he , i may be one in a little time . mr. serj. jeff. have you any thing to ask mr. masters ? you know he is your old acquaintance , you know him well . ( then sir william jennings was sworn . ) mr. jones . what is it that you know concerning mr. colledge at oxford , sir ? sir william jennings . my lord , the first time that i heard any thing of mr. colledge , was , there was some company looking upon a picture , for i knew him not , nor never had any word of discourse with him in my life any more then seeing him in a publick coffee-house . but there was a picture looking on by or or people , i believe more or less , and i coming and crowding in my head amongst the rest , looked upon this picture . after the crowd was over , mr. colledge takes a picture out of his pocket , and said he , i will give you one of them if you will. so he gives me a picture ; which picture if i could see , i could tell what it was ; it was written mac a top , and there were several figures in it . ( then the picture was shewed him . ) this is one of the same that i had of him , and i had not had it long in my custody , but meeting with justice warcupp , i shewed it him , who bid me give it him , and so i did . the next thing that i did see mr. colledge do , was in the coffee-house , not the same day , but another time . i saw him bring in a parcel of blew ribband which was wrought , and these words eight times wrought in it , twice wrought in every quarter of a yard , no popery , no slavery . i saw him sell to a member of parliament , as i took him to be , a yard of that ribband for s. and truly i was thinking he would ask me to buy some too , and i saw that gentleman ( i took him to be a parliament man ) take this ribband and tye it upon his sword. as to the other thing i have to say of mr. colledge ; that very day the parliament was dissolved , he had been in a quarrel , as he told me , with mr. fitz girald ; and i was standing in the schoole-house yard , and he comes directly to me without my speaking to him or any thing ; but he comes and tells me mr. fitz girald had spit in his face , and , said he , i spit in his face again ; so we went to loggerheads together , i think that was the word , or fifty cuffs . so , said i , mr. colledge your nose bleeds ; he takes his handkerchief out of his pocket and wipes his nose , and said , i have lost the first blood in the cause , but it will not be long before more be lost . l. c. just . where was this ? sir william jennings . in the schoole-house yard at oxon. i never discoursed with him afterwards till i met him at london in fleet-street one sunday in the afternoon , and i remember captain crescett was along with me . and when he came up to me , how now , said i , honest joyner ? sayes he , you call me honest joyner , some call me rogue and rascal , and i have been beating some of them . so that i believe they will be aware of it . so i told captain crescett i never met this man but he was always in a quarrel . colledge . was it on a sunday that i told you i had been beating of some body . sir william jennings . you told me so , captain crescett was by . colledge . i do remember i met you , but i did not tell you i had been then beating any one . but pray , sir william , when i met you after the parliament was dissolved , and fitz girald and i had quarrel'd , did i say , that i had lost the first blood in the cause , but it would not be long e're more were lost . sir william , you are a gentleman ; as for the other men , they don't care what they say , nor do i so much regard them , but you value your word and honour ; these were my words , and pray will you recollect your self before you be positive in the thing , whether i did not say , i have lost the first blood for the parliament ( for it was upon my vindicating of the commons and doctor oates whom fitz girald had abused , and upon that the quarrel began ; so i said when you met me , and told me , my nose bled , i have lost the first blood for the parliament ) i wish it may be the last . sir william jennings . mr. colledge , if you please i will answer you as to that , i do assure you ? t is the first time that ever i came upon this occasion in my days , and i have declared it before , and do declare it now , i would rather have served the king in ingagements , then come in against you or any man upon such an occasion . but i declare to you upon the whole memory of the truth , the words were as i spoke them at first , and no parliament named or mentioned . and , my lord , moreover , i will tell you , when i did tell this story , because mr. crescett that is here is able to tell you whether i did not relate the words within half an hour , or a little time after . now i never had a prejudice against you in my days , nor other concern , but having told mr. justice warcupp this story , i am brought hither to testifie it . colledge . sir william , i am very sorry you did not better observe and remember my words then . sir william jennings . i must needs say , i could not imagine what the words meant when they were spoken , nor do i understand them to this day ; but soon after they were spoken , i related them to justice warcupp , he being a justice of peace . mr. serj. holloway . gentlemen , we shall rest here , and conclude our evidence for the king at present , to hear what the prisoner says to it , only with my lords leave i shall explain the words to you that are in the indictment , and tell you what is meant by compassing and imagining the death of the king. the seizing the person of the king , is in law a compassing and intending his death ; and so it hath been adjudged in several cases , as in jacobi , my lord cobham and my lord greys case , and several other cases ; and so you may fully apprehend what the charge is , and may understand the words in the indictment , that if you are not satisfied with the general words of compassing the king's death , you may know , that the seizing his person extends to it . mr. serj. jefferies . my lord we have done with our evidence , now let him go on with his . l. chief justice . now mr. colledge you may say what you will for your defence , and call your witnesses that you have to produce . colledge . my lord , i have heard this evidence that is against me , and i would desire your lordship to resolve me some questions upon it . i think the indictment is for treasonable practices , for a conspiracy ; now i desire your lordship will be pleased that i may know from you and the court , whether in all this evidence given in proof against me , a conspiracy is proved ; or if any thing appears besides what they say i said . l. chief justice . for a conspiracy in you , if the witnesses speak truth , there is a plain proof , and of the degrees of it : first of all , by your publishing libels and pictures to make the king odious and contemptible in the eyes of the people , and that you should be the author of some of those pictures , and they were found in your custody . colledge . i conceive that is not proved . l. chief justice . if the witnesses say true , it is proved . colledge . they do not produce that , they do but say it . l. chief justice . mr. dugdale swears , that at oxford here , you shew'd him the picture , you sung the song here , and expounded it at my lord lovelace's , and a great many of them are found in your custody . then that you prepared armes , that you shew'd smith the arms in your house , and having those arms , you said , you would go to oxford , and if there should be a disturbance there , you would secure the king. and you did come to oxford , where you hear what is said ; for i observe , stephen dugdale and edward turbervile speak of what was done at oxford . john smith and bryan haynes speak of what you said at london before you went to oxford , and after you came from oxford . now i say , if these witnesses speak true , 't is a strong evidence against you , both upon the statute of the edw. the d. and that of this king too . for my brother holloway told you true , that whereas the imagining the death of the king is high treason , by the of edw. the d. so a seizing of the king , and an endeavor to do that , is a constructive intention of the death of the king ; for kings are never prisoners , but in order to their death . and therefore it hath been held in all times , that by the statute of edw. d. that was treason ; but then the statute of this king , in the year of his reign , is more strong ; for there it says , if any man shall by any words or malitious speaking shew the imagination of his heart , that he hath any such intention , that is treason too . colledge . my lord , the foundation of this indictment is said to be laid here in oxford , as i suppose ; pray , my lord , here is only mr. dugdale and turbervile that swear against me for what i should say in oxon ▪ all the rest speak to things said and done at london . now , my lord , i desire to know , whether they have proved any treasonable practices , conspiracy or design in me against the government , i would feign know that , whether there be matter here to ground an indictment upon ; for the one says in one place , the other in the other , which may be distinct matters , and none of them swear facts against me , but only words . mr. justice jones . yes , providing arms for your self , and offering others arms. colledge . that i shall make this answer to , i had only a case of pistols and a sword , which every footman and horseman had , that came from london , i think . but further my lord , i would ask your lordship , whether there ought not to be two witnesses distinct , to swear words at one and the same time . mr. justice jones . no , no , the resolution of the judges in my lord stafford's case , is contrary . l. chief justice . look you , it hath been often resolved , that if there be one witness that proves one fact which is an evidence of treason , and another proves another fact , that is an evidence of the same treason , tho' they be but single witnesses to several facts , yet they are two witnesses to an indictment of treason ; that hath been often publickly resolved , particularly in the case of my lord stafford , mentioned by my brother . and i 'le tell you my opinion further , if there be one witness that proves here what you said at oxford , and another that proves what was said in london , if they be in order to the same treason , it is sufficient ; for if you do conspire to commit such a treason in london , and you come with such an imagination in your heart to oxford to compleat this treason , tho' your design was not first formed there , i think 't is enough to maintain an indictment of treason , and they are two good witnesses , tho' but one speak to what was done at oxford ; but i must tell you , in your case , there are two full witnesses to that which was done at oxford , besides sir william jennings . colledge . that which sir william jennings speaks of , i told you before what it was i said , it was the first blood that was shed for the parliament . mr. just . jones . the parliament was dissolved before that which sir william jennings speaks of , therefore you could not say it was to defend the parliament . colledge . mr. dugdale did say that i spake such and such words in the barber's shop in the angel inne ; there i was indeed at the time that he does speak of , and the barber was by , i do think , indeed it were convenient to have him here ; but i knew not where he would charge me , or what it was he would charge me with , because i never said any thing in my life that was like treason . lord ch. just . mr. colledge , call any witnesses you will. colledge . but , my lord , pray let me ask you one question more ; you take these words distinct from any matter of fact , don't you ? l. ch. just. no , complicated with the fact , which was the overt-act , the coming to oxon. with pistols to make one if there had been any disturbance , and to seize the king. colledge . then , my lord , i would ask you , whether any act of treason done at london , shall be given in evidence to prove the treason for which i am now indicted , and which was given in evidence before the grand jury , upon which the tryal was there grounded . lord ch. just. any act of treason that is of the same kind . and i 'le tell you , that was resolved in sir vane's case ; those that gave you that paper understand it . but i speak now to your capacity , and to satisfie your question . he was indicted for levying warr against the king , he conspired in westminster , the war was levyed in another county ; the conspiracy upon the tryal was proved in the county of middlesex , and the warr in another place , and yet it was held sufficient to maintain the indictment in the county of middlesex . colledge . there was a warr really levyed , but god be thanked here is only bare words . mr. just . jones . yes , actions too . colledge . what actions , my lord ? mr. just . jones . arming your self , and coming to oxford . lord ch. just . well , i have told you my opinion ; my brothers will speak theirs , if they think otherwise . mr. just . jones . that is not your case neither tho i am of the same opinion with my lord ; for here are two witnesses have proved plain matter of fact at oxford ; the providing arms your self , and encouraging others to take arms — colledge . they name no persons . mr. just . jones . you will have my opinion , and yet you will give me no leave to speak ; i had patience to hear you : you are told there are two witnesses , turbervile and dugdale , that prove your providing and having of arms at oxon. and perswading others to take arms , particularly turbervile , he told you he had no arms , or but a case of pistols , and he had no horse ; but you told him you would provide him an horse . and then there are two other witnesses , smith and bryan haynes , they do not tell you of any thing done at oxford , but they tell you what you said in their hearing of what you had done in oxon , and so i think if the witnesses are to be believed , there is a very full proof against you . mr. just . raymond . i am of the same opinion truely , and i cannot find , but that there is proof enough by two witnesses , turbervile and dugdale , of what was done at oxford . they swear matter of fact , not words only , but actions also . colledge . no fact , but that i had pistols and a sword , and that i should tell mr. turbervile i would provide him an horse , which is still but words . mr. just . jones . but you shall hear anon for the full conviction of you and all others , the statute of the th of this king read to you , and you shall there see that such words are made treason . colledge . but i beseech your lordship to tell me whether there must not be two witnesses to the same words at the same time . mr. just . jones . no it was the resolution of all the judges in the case of my lord stafford in the presence of the parliament , and the parliament proceeded upon it . mr. serj. jefferies . in the same tryal where mr. colledge was a witness . mr. att. general . all the whole house of commons prayed judgment upon my lord stafford , pursuant to that resolution . l. c. just . come will you call any witnesses ? colledge . my lord , i do not question but to prove this one of the hellishest conspiracy that ever was upon the face of the earth , and these the most notorious wicked men , an absolute design to destroy all the protestants of england , that have had the courage to oppose the popish plot. in which no man of my condition hath done more then i have done . i was bred a protestant , and continued so hitherto , and by the grace of god i will dye so . if that they had known of these words that i should speak , and such a design that i should have before the parliament sat at oxon , and be with me in oxon when the parliament sat , if they had been good subjects , they ought to have had me apprehended . turbervile came several times indeed , and dined with me . i did not bid him go out of doors , nor invited him thither ; he was a man i had no disrespect for , nay he was a man i valued , thinking he had done the nation service against the papists , that this man should hear me speak such words against his majesty , who was then in this town , and know of such a dangerous design to attempt the seizing his person , or that i should discover a great party that were ready to do it , i think there is scarce any man of reason , but will say , if this were really done and spoken by me , neither of them would or ought to have concealed it but discover it , none of them has ever charged me with any such thing , they have been in my company since . i never had any correspondence with any of them but dugdale , then pray consider how improbable it is , that i should talk of such things to papists , priests , and irish-men , who have broke their faith , with their own party , that faith which they gave under the penalty of damnation , men that have been concerned in plots and treasons , to murder and cut the throats of protestants , that i should be such a madman to trust these people , when i could receive no manner of obligation from them , nor could give any trust to them , they having before broke their faith ; especially , considering i could lay no such oaths and obligations upon them , who was a protestant ; then 't is the greatest non-sense , to believe that i would say these things before persons whom i could never hope would conceal my treasons , having discovered their own . if they speak truth concerning the general popish plot , that could be no obligation upon me , to trust them with another ; and they cannot say , that they ever obliged me in any one respect . my lord , i thank god i have had some acquaintance in the world , and have been concerned with some persons of honour , noblemen , and parliament men , that i know are as good subjects as any his majesty has ; these never found me a fool , nor a rascal , so great a knave , as to have any such thoughts in my heart , nor so great a mad-man , or so foolish , as to go to discover them to papists , priests , and irish-men , to men of their condition , that were ready to starve for bread. as for haynes and smith that run so fast through all their evidence , the first time that ever i set my eyes on haynes , was in the coffee-house that he speaks of ; macnamarra comes in , and desires me to go out with him , and i should hear the greatest discovery of a piece of villany against my lord shaftsbury's life , that ever i heard in my life . this captain brown who is now dead , a man that i had not known but a month before , ( for i think it was in march last when this was ) could testifie for me ; for , i came to him , captain , said i , here is a discovery offered to be made to me , of a design to take away my lord shaftsbury's life . macnamarra asks me to go to the hercules pillars , i went along with him , and took captain brown with us . afterwards he fell sick in april , and is now dead , so i lossed a main evidence in the case . he was the only man that was by at the time ; god knows my heart , i speak nothing but the truth , i took him with me , haynes began to discover to us , that fitz-girald had employed him to fetch over macnamarra , and if he would come in , and swear against my lord of shaftesbury , which was his design , it would not be long e're his head were taken off , and he said , he had given in a paper of high treason agaist my lord of shaftesbury , i asked what it was , he told me , that my lord should tell fitz girald that he had a design to bring this kingdom to a common wealth , and to rout out the family of the stuarts . this he said , fitz girald had given in in a paper , under his own hand ; and i think he said , he had sworn it , and sent haynes to fetch macnamarra to swear against my lord the same things too . i writ down all the heads of the discourse which captain brown heard as well as i , after he had said it , he desired us to conceal it , sir said i , you are a stranger to me , and these are great and strange things that you do tell us , macnamarra and brown , and ivy , and others were there , which ( if they were honest men ) they would come and testifie . i thought them honest men , and that they had none of those wicked designs in their hearts , that now i find they have . so says haynes , i do not know this man , meaning me ; macnamarra told him , i was an honest man , he might lay his life in my hands . after he had spoken all this , he desired us to conceal it ; said he , i will not only discover this , but a great deal more of their rogeries that i know very well ; said i to him again , i will not conceal it , nor do you no wrong , for if this be true , my lord of shaftsbury shall know it to night ; for where there is a design to take away a peer of the realm , i will not conceal it ; but if it be false , and you have said more then comes to your share , recant it again , and we will take no notice of it , only say you are a knave for speaking of it ; he swore dam him it was all true , that , and a great deal more , which he said he knew , about seizing and destroying the parliament at oxon , about an army in the north that was to be raised about the time of the sitting of the parliament at oxon , of a french army that was to land in ireland at the same time , that the duke of york was to be at the head of them , and the intention was , to destroy all the protestants . upon this , i was resolved , if i lived , to come along with the parliament , and if there was any such design , i was resolved to live and die with them , but i had no more then common arms , a sword and a case of pistols , my cap was a velvet cap , and nothing else . my lord , i had the honor to be sent for , when the parliament sat last at westminster , the sessions in october , it was an honourable occasion , and i thank those worthy gentlemen that sent me for the honor of it , there i begun to be popular as to my name , for from that time they began to call me the protestant joyner , because the parliament had intrusted me . my lord crey was pleased to send his footman for me to the crown tavern behind the exchange , where there were several worthy lords , peers of the realm , and one hundred of the commons , that had dined there that day , it was the day before they sat ; after they had dined i came to them , and the duke of monmouth told me , they had heard a good report of me , that i was an honest man ▪ that understood building , and they did confide in me to search under the parliament house ; they did not really know of any design , but they would not be secure , there might be some tricks play'd them by the papists , tho' we are not afraid of them , said the duke , yet we think fit to employ you to search under the houses , and thereabouts , whether you can find any such practices . so accordingly my lord , i did go , my lord lovelace was one of the honourable lords , and my lord herbert that went with me , and some of the gentlemen of the house of commons ; and those worthy protestant lords were pleased to thank me for my service , and did believe i was active and zealous to find out and discover the bottome of the popish plot , so far as it came legally in my way to do it . my lord , upon this occasion , there was a great kindness from them to me , and i had upon all occasions testimonies of it ; and this very man who now swears treasons against me ( which god almighty knows is all false ) did swear in his affidavit before sir george treby the recorder of london ( i did never see the affidavit , indeed i was over night at sir treby's , but he was not then at leisure , but he drew it up next day , and swore it ) that there was a design to destroy the parliament at oxon , and there was not only his oath for it , but it was the general belief , that some evil was intended them . all men had cause to fear and to suspect , the papists did bear them no great good will ; and making use of their own observations , they were generally armed with a pistol , or a sword , for themselves , in case they should be attack'd by the papists . in order to this , i did come down with my lord howard , my lord of clare , my lord of huntington , and my lord pagett , those four worthy protestant lords ; and it was two days after the parliament was sat , that we came , and i went out of town again with my lord lovelace , sir thomas player , and sir robert clayton ; and i am sure , they were all in so great a fear that london should be surprized and seized on by the papists , but there was no mortal man that ever heard of the kings being seised , or thought of it , till these men come and tell me , that i had such a design , and came hither with that purpose ; but my lord , i declare as god is my judge , i would not have it thought i speak it to save my life , were it as certainly a truth , as 't is most wickedly a falshood , that i had had a design to seize the king , i know not of one man upon the face of the earth , that was to stand by me , parliament man , or other persons whatsoever ; and how it is possible for me to attempt that , being a single person , with only a sword and a case of pistols , let any man judge . and i do declare , i know of no conspiracy nor design , against the king or government , i never spoke one of the treasonable words in my life , that is laid against me , nor had ever any thoughts of any such thing . god that is my eternal judge , knows , that what i speak is true . l. ch. just. well , mr. colledge , will you call your witnesses , for i must tell the jury as i did at your request , concerning mr. attorney , that as nothing he said , so nothing you say is to be believed upon your own allegation ; for then no man would ever be guilty , if his own purgation by words were to be believed . colledge . my lord , i thank god , i know my own innocency , and hope to prove it . i have a soul that must live to eternity , either in joy or misery , i act according to those principles , and i hope i have some assurance of my own salvation when i dye , i would not call god to witness to a lye , to save lives . my lord , this is a villanous conspiracy against me , and if it take place against me , it may go a great way , god knows how far , this is the th or th sham plot the papists have made against the protestants , to get over their own ; but i hope my lord god almighty will never suffer it . if they can make me a traytor , they will try it upon others , and so hope to sham off their own treasons ; but i say , i hope god almighty will never suffer it . my lord , i think the first witness that swore against me was mr. dugdale ; and i must call my witnesses as i have them here , i know no person of them hardly , and this that is done for my defence was done abroad . my lord , i have been kept close prisoner in the tower , and none of them suffered to come to me , whilst the popish lords have had the liberty and priviledg to talk with their friends . here are witnesses i hope will prove that these are suborned men , for macnamarra did tell me presently after the parliament broke up at oxon , and whispered it to me in the coffee-house , said he , there is a design laid to make us retract our evidence , and go over to fitz girald . said i , i suppose they have been at that sport a great while . ah , said he , they make large offers . said i , by whom ? said he , colonel warcupp hath been at me , and he tells me — mr. just . jones . macnamarra is not produced against you as a witness at all . colledge . no , but he told me this , that there was such a design , and , said he , i will get you , and some other honest men ; and he desired me to be by when he had something more to tell which would do his business for him , but the next news i heard of him was , he was put into newgate . l. ch. just . call your witnesses , mr. colledge , and prove what you can . coll. call mr. hickman . mr. attorn . gen. my lord , i desire he may observe the same rule he desired about our witnesses ; that he may call but one at a time . coll. yes , yes , i will call them one by one . l. ch. just . are not your witnesses together ? send to them . coll. my lord , i don't know , i have not seen one since i come . this is not the first time , my lord , the papists have designed to take away my life , though it is the first time they went about to take it away by a law. l. ch. just . i know not of one papist that is a witness against you . coll. there is never a man of them , except sir william jennings , but what was a papist . mr. attorn . gen. what say you to mr. masters ? coll. mr. masters says nothing material , it was only a jocose discourse . mr. serj. jeff. it was very pleasant discourse upon my word ; you were as merry as when you were singing of the rary shew . mr. just . jones . what do you make mirth of the blackest tragedy that ever was , that horrid rebellion , and the murther of the late king. coll. i never justified that parliament in any such thing that they did contrary to law. mr. just . jones . he swears it . mr. attorn . gen. hickman does not appear , call another . coll. call william shewin , ( who appeared . ) l. ch. just . look you here friend , you are not to be sworn ; but when you speak in a court of justice , and in a course of justice , you must speak as in the presence of god , and only speak what is true . coll. i would not have any body speak any thing for me , but what is truth . l. ch. just . now ask him what you will. coll. i don't know the gentleman . but pray , sir , will you tell what you know of these witnesses . mr. shewin . name any of them that i know , pray sir , and i 'll tell you . coll. do you know bryan haynes ? mr. shewin . i know there is such a man , but i have nothing to say to him . coll. do you know turbervile ? mr. shewin . yes . coll. pray tell what you know of him . mr. shewin . my lord , i was in turbervile's company on thursday night last at the golden posts at charing-cross , and there i heard him say , that if i were at oxford i should hear strange things against colledge , and he would lay ten to one that mr. bethel and mr. wilmore should be hanged at christmas , and he would lead him by the gold chain along fleetstreet , and down with his breeches in the middle of the coffee-house , with a band about his neck and a cloak . mr. serj. jeff. did he say all these things against mr. sheriff bethel , i assure you he is a bold man. coll. what do you know of mr. smith ? mr. shewin . i know him by sight , but i have nothing in particular to say concerning him . i have something to say to macnamarra , sir , if he were here . coll. do you know any thing of this conspiracy in general ? mr. jones . what of your conspiracy ? mr. shewin . i know that they did lay , who should be hang'd at candlemas , who at christmass , and who at several other times . l. ch. just . what did you hear turbervile say ? mr. shewin . those words i spake before about sheriff bethel , and about the amsterdam coffee-house . coll. did they say what time i should be hang'd ? for the discourse ' rose about me . mr. shewin . one told me that there was one that did design to be returned upon this jury , that was resolved to hang him right or wrong . mr high sher. my lord , i did hear there was such a one , and i left him out of the jury . l. ch. just . for mr. sheriffs honour we must take notice of what he hath said . he says he heard of a man that spoke something of that nature , and therefore he left him out of the jury . coll. now 't is possible these witnesses were at the same sport . mr. shewin . was mr. peacock mrs. fits-harris maids father , or she here , either of them witnesses against you ? mr. serj. jeff. no , they were not , sir. coll. they did swear against me at the finding of the bill . mr. serj. jeff. we have only called these witnesses , if you can say any thing against them do . coll. call henry hickman , ( who appeared . ) mr. serj. holl. where do you live , sir ? mr. hickm . at holborn-bridge . mr. attorn . gen. what trade are you ? mr. hickm . a cabinet-maker . l. ch. just . what do you ask him ? coll. do you know haynes ? hickm . yes , very well ; because he used to come to my house to a popish widow that was a lodger in my house where i live now ; and this person was a prisoner at haynes's when he was a prisoner in the fleet. i always had a suspicion he was a priest , not that i could accuse him really of any thing , but he several times using to come to my house i thought so of him , and discoursing with my land-lady . l. ch. just . your tenant you mean ? mr. hickm . yes , my tenant . i asked her , what this fellow was ; said she , he is a very dangerous fellow though he is a papist , and i am one my self , yet he is a dangerous person , and he does not much care what he swears against any one . mr. just . jones . this your tenant told you , what do you know your self ? mr. hickm . another time he came to speak with my tenant mrs. scot , who is now gone into ireland ; when he came to the house , he asked me , is mrs. scot within ? yes , said i , mr. haynes , she is above ; and up he goes , and there they locked the door , and plucked out the key ; so i slipt off my shoes , for i thought there might be more danger from such people than i could discover any other way . so i went up stairs , and stood at the door , and hearkned , hearing my land-lady talk something to him , he wraps out a great oath , god dam me , said he , i care not what i swear , nor who i swear against ; for 't is my trade to get money by swearing . whereupon , my lord , i came down as fast as i could , and a little after i saw him go out , and as soon as my land-lady came down , said i , mrs. scot i desire you would provide your self as soon as you can ; i would be civil to you , and i would not put you to a non-plus , because your goods by the law will be seized for not departing according to the king's proclamation . so a while ago since this business of haynes's swearing against my lord of shaftsbury , i bethought my self of some other businesses i had heard : to find out the knavery i went to the fleet , where he hath a very ill character as well amongst the papists as the protestants . whereupon i asked one fellow that was a kind of a porter , if he knew any thing of him ; said he , go you to such an one — mr. serj. jeff. we must not permit this for example sake , to tell what others said . l. ch. just . nothing is evidence , but what you know of your own knowledge ; you must not tell what others said . hickm . this i do say , i heard him say ; and there are those that can produce a letter — mr. serj. jeff. bring those people , but you must speak nothing , but upon your own knowledge . hickm . i was at the chamber door , and looked in at the key-hole , and he sat down at the window . l. ch. just . how long ago was it , pray ? hickm . a year and an half . mr. attorn . gen. you are an eves-dropper , i percieve . hickm . i did not know what danger he might bring men into , because he was a papist .. i have taken an oath to be true to the king , and i will as long as i live . for this gentleman , i never beheld him , till last night , in all my days ; though he lived by me , i never saw him . l. ch. just . well , call the next . coll. i never saw this gentleman ; but you see what haynes hath declared . mr. serj. jeff. this man says , he did say so . coll. and , for ought i perceive , he does accordingly . call elizabeth oliver ; ( who appeared . ) l. ch. just . mrs. oliver , stand up . what do you ask her ? coll. do you know haynes , pray ? bryan haynes ? mrs. oliver . yes . coll. pray tell the court what you know of him . mrs. oliver . i know him very well . l. ch. just . what do you know of him ? mrs. oliver . he writ a letter in my father's name , unknown to my father . l. ch. just . did you see him write it ? mrs. oliver . i saw him write it . l. ch. just . read it . by whom is it subscribed ? clerk. by no body . l. ch. just . why , how is it written in your father's name , when it is not subscribed at all ? mrs. oliver . he writ it as from my father . mr. serj. jeff. whither did he bring it ? mrs. oliver . he sent it into the country . mr. serj. jeff. can you write and read , mistress ? mrs. oliver . yes . mr. serj. jeff. who did he send it by ? mrs. oliver . the carrier . mr. serj. jeff. when is it dated ? clerk. in . l. ch. just . read the letter . ( which was done . ) clerk. reads . l. ch. just . what is all this to the purpose ? unless your father were here to prove it was done without his knowledge . mr. oliver . my father did not write it . l. ch. just . was your father in the fleet then ? mrs. oliver . yes , my lord , he was a prisoner then . coll. mrs. oliver , do you know any thing more of him ? mrs. oliver . i have known him a great while ; i know him to be a very ill man. mr. serj. jeff. must she tell you all she knows ? mr. attorn . gen. did you ever know him forswear himself ? mrs. oliver . no , i do not know that . l. ch. just . come , call another ; this is nothing to the purpose . coll. call mrs. hall : ( who appeared . ) pray , do you know mr. bryan haynes ? mrs. hall. yes , if i see him i know him very well . coll. what do you know of him ? mrs. hall. he lodged at my house , and came there the day before fitz-harris was tryed , and there was a great discourse about his tryal , and i was enquiring of him ; and i told him , i must expose my ignorance , i did not know what it was he was tried for : and , said he , if you please to sit down , i will tell you : madam portsmouth came to him , and went upon her knees , and begg'd of him , if he had any kindness for his majesty , that he would now shew it at this juncture ; and she told him she had heard he had formerly acquaintance with one mr. everard abroad , and therefore desired him to go now and renew it , and endeavour to get him over ; and , if he could possibly , to get over some others to make a presbyterian plot of it . this is true , i very well know it ; as for this gentleman , i never saw his face before , but those were the words i am sure . l. ch. just . what were the words ? mrs. hall. that they might make a presbyterian plot of it . coll. did he say so ? mrs. hall. he said that the dutchess of portsmouth did so . l. ch. just . what a story is this ? coll. did not he say that the dutchess of portsmouth employed him too ? mrs. hall. no , this was about fitz-harris . coll. what do you know more about haynes ? mrs. hall. one night he had been about some business for me in law with one mr. woodward an attorney at law , and when he returned i was busie in the kitchin with my maid about the house , and he came up to me ; madam , said he , this night i had a message from the king ; a justice of peace met me , and brought me word , that the king had sent into ireland , to enquire into the loyalty of my family , and he hath heard that my father was a loyal subject , but he understood strange things of me ; but if i would come in , he would grant me my pardon . i told him , said he , i did not value his majesty's pardon a pin , for i had done nothing that might make me stand in need of it ; but i would do any thing that might tend to the preservation of his majesty's person or honour ; but to do such base things as are beneath a man , i will never do it ; and he whisper'd me in the ear ( as the accusing of several persons ; ) and since , he sent me a letter by his mother in law , mrs. wingfield , that i should not believe it , if i heard he should accuse any body ; but i might be confident he had not , nor would accuse any body . coll. was he to swear against the protestants ? mrs. hall. i did not enquire any questions ; but he said , such base things he would never do as the accusing of several persons . mr. attorn . gen. pray mistress , did you believe him when he told you he was so honest a man ? mrs. hall. how do you mean , sir ? mr. attorn . gen. when he said he would not do those base things , did you believe him ? mrs. hall. i never saw his face before he came there to lodge ; but i saw him to to be a man that made little conscience of what he said or swore . mr. attorn . gen. did not you find him a bragging man ? mrs. hall. i had little discourse , but what he said of himself . but there is one thing more about an intelligence : when thompson had written something in his intelligence concerning bryan haynes , he said he would write an answer to it ; and accordingly , he read it to us : he said , he was going that evening to get it put into one of the intelligences : the words were to this purpose . whereas one nathaniel thompson had falsely and maliciously accused one bryan haynes for speaking treasonable words ; he the said bryan haynes doth declare that he challenges any man to charge him with it : but he owned he had an hand , or was employed to put the plot upon the dissenting protestants . l. ch. just . did he publish that in the intelligence ? mrs. hall. i never read it published ; but he had writ it , and read it to us several times . mr. attorn . gen. do you go to church , mistress ? mrs. hall. i hope i do . sir geo. jeff. to what church ? coll. call mary richards , mrs. halls maid . ( who stood up . ) l. ch. just . what will you ask her ? coll. do you know this bryan haynes , pray . richards . yes , he lodged there where i lived . coll. what do you know of him ? richards . i know he writ that in the intelligence my mistress spoke of ; thomson , in his intelligence , accusing him of having spoken treason , he read what he said he would put into the intelligence : that he never spake one word of treason , and he writ it for his own vindication ; that whereas nathaniel thomson , in his intelligence of the th . of june , had maliciously accused one bryan haynes of treasonable words ; there was no such thing . l. ch. just . and that was to vindicate him , that he never did speak any treasonable words . richards . yes . l. ch. just . will you ask her any thing else ? coll. i cannot tell what she says . l. ch. just . she says , he writ something that was in answer to thomson's intelligence , to vindicate himself that he never did speak any treasonable words . coll. but did you hear him say any thing of these words , that he was employed in a plot against the protestants ? richards . i read that , in what he writ to put in the intelligence , that he challenged any one to appear , and charge him with treason ; but , said he , i own that i was employed or had a hand in putting the plot upon the dissenting protestants : and he telling my mistress he had a message from the king , offering him his pardon ; i asked him why he did not accept the king's pardon . alass , said he , you do not understand what i was to do for it ; i was to do such base things so beneath a man , that i will never do them : i had five hundred pounds offered me , besides the king's pardon , to do such base things as are beneath a man to do . coll. what were the base things he said he was to do , and would not do ? richards . i cannot tell , he did not say to me what they were . mr. attorn . gen. when was this ? richards . it was a week before he was taken . mr. attorn . gen. that is two months ago . coll. it was since the parliament sat at oxford : but what was that he was employed to do , did he say ? richards . why , he said in his answer to the intelligence , he was one that had an hand to put the plot upon the dissenting protestants . coll. call mrs. wingfield ; ( who appeared . ) l. ch. just . what is your christian name ? mrs. wingfield . mary . l. ch. just . what do you ask her ? coll. do you know this bryan haynes , pray ? mrs. wingfield . yes , very well . coll. what do you know of him ? mrs. wingfield . i know nothing of him , but he is an honest man ; he married my daughter , and always carried himself like a gentleman ; he scorns the thing that is unhandsome , and never did any thing that is unhandsome in my life . mr. serj. jeff. pray , how came you by this witness ? have you any more of them ? coll. i never saw her before , but i believe she hath said something else in another place . did you ever say the contrary , pray ? mrs. wingfield . no body can say so ; and i had done the gentleman a great deal of wrong if i had . coll. call mr. whaley . ( who appeared . ) l. ch. just . what is your name , sir ? mr. whaley . john whaley . coll. did you know bryan haynes ? mr. attorn . gen. where do you dwell , sir ? mr. whaley . at the hermitage , beyond the tower. coll. i don't know you , sir ; but what do you know of him ? mr. whaley , i never saw you , sir , till to day ; but that which i think i am called for is this , though it was upon sunday that i receiv'd this same subpoena to come down hither : but about six years ago , bryan haynes was a prisoner in the king's bench , and he came down to the cellar which i had taken of the marshal to sell drink in ; and coming down to drink in one of the rooms of the cellar that belong to me , he took away a tankard , and went up with it . one of the men followed him up ; so i went to the marshal to complain , and told him of it : and the marshal took him from the master's side , and put him into the common side . that is all i know of him any way , directly or indirectly . l. ch. just . why did you not indict him of it ? mr. whaley . i acquainted the next justice of the peace , who was the marshal ; and he put him from the master's side , into the common side . l. ch. just . he was no good justice of the peace in the mean time . coll. call mr. john lun . ( who appeared . ) do you know bryan haynes , mr. lun ? mr. lun . i have seen him twice : the first time i ever saw him was , i went into the derby-ale-house , to enquire for one miclethwayte , a kinsman of mine , and there this bryan haynes was in a little room next the ditch , near the door that goes out there , as if he were asleep , and he roused himself up ; and , as i was walking there , sir , said he , will you take part of a tankard with me : ( that was his expression . ) with that , said i , i do not care if i do . and the first thing he began was the king's health , then the queens , then the duke of york's ; then he fell very foul against the grand jury , because they had not found the bill against colledge , who is a gentleman that i never saw before in my life but once , as i know of : and he said , my lord shaftsbury was a little toad , but he would do his business very suddenly . then he railed upon the parliament , and said they were a company of rogues , they would give the king no money , but he would help him to money enough out of the phanaticks estates . and he said , they would damn their souls to the devil before the catholick cause should sink . mr. serj. holloway . when was this ? mr. lun . it was three or four days after the bill was brought in ignoramus by the grand jury . mr. just . jones . was he alone ? mr. lun . yes , he was . coll. is that all you have to say ? mr. lun . one thing more , my lord. on monday last i was at uxbridge , and a gentleman sent his man on purpose to let me know i must go to colebrook , and stay till they came thither . when i came there , i met bryan haynes at the crown-kitchin-window , and he was stirring a glass of brandy , and sweetning it with sugar . said he , sir , will you drink ? here is the king's health to you : so i drank , and i asked him how he did ? do you know me , sir , said he ? yes , said i , i drank with you once . says he , you have a good memory . so then a pint of sack was called for , and after that another , and then came down mrs. peacock ; and being very fine , all in her flower'd silks , i asked what gentlewoman that was ? said he , it is mrs. fitz-harris . no , says i , it is not ; they say she is gone . but , said he , it is her maid ; and sheriff bethel is to marry her . as i have a soul to save , i tell you nothing but what is truth . thereupon , said i , sheriff bethel is able to maintain her ; he hath a good estate . but , said he , it shall be the king 's e'er long . coll. so that here is a plain design against all the eminent protestants . mr. lun . so with that , my lord , if it please your honour , i clapped my groat down at the bar , and went out of the room . nay , said he , let us have one health more : and so he had his tankard , and i had mine . haynes . i humbly desire you to call for mr. white , the king's messenger , who was by . i never saw the man before he was at uxbridge ; and asking mr. white who he was ? said he , his name is lun , he was my prisoner two years . l. ch. just . what say you to the discourse he talks of at fleet-bridge ? haynes . my lord , i am upon my oath , and i never saw him in my life before i saw him at uxbridge . mr. lun . i will take the sacrament upon it , that what i have averred is true . mr. serj. jeff. i suppose you are both known , and then your credit will be left to the jury . mr. attorn . gen. there is mr. white ; pray , swear him . ( which was done . ) l. ch. just . do you remember that haynes asked who mr. lun was . mr. white . it was at the bar of the crown inn at uxbridge , and i being there , mr. lun came into the yard , and i knowing mr. lunn , asked him , how he did ; he said , he was glad to see me ; and he called for a pint of sack to make me drink . haynes stood by , and he asked , who he was ? and i told him ; and we drank the king's health ; but for any thing of those words that were spoken there , sir , i did hear not one word of them , but he thanked me for my civility when i summoned him up to court , and seeing mr. haynes by , he asked , who he was ? mr. serj. jeff. and you take it upon your oath , that he asked you , who haynes was ? mr. white . yes , i do . mr. serj. jeff. pray did you hear any discourse that time as if there had been a meeting upon fleet-bridge ? mr. white . not one word of that ? mr. lun . i will take the sacrament upon it , what i say is true . mr. serj. jeff. we know you , mr. lun ; we only ask questions about you , that the jury may know you too , as well as we . we remember what once you swore about an army . coll. i don't know him . mr. lun . i don't come here to give evidence of any thing but the truth ; i was never upon my knees before the parliament for any thing . mr. serj. jeff. nor i neither for much ; but yet once you were , when you cryed , scatter them good lord. coll. call mr. broadgate . l. ch. just . what is your christian name , sir ? mr. broadg. jeremiah . l. ch. just . what do you ask him ? mr. broadg. my lord , i am a stranger to the prisoner at the bar ; what i have to say is concerning mr. turbervile whom i met one day , and he asked me , how i did ? said he , i owe you a little money , but i will pay you in a short time ; but if you will go to drink a glass of ale ; no , said i , i am in haste , and do not care for going to drink ; said he , you shall go ; so away we went , and when we were sat , said , he , when did you see turbervile that was my lord powis's butler ; said he , he was a great rogue to me ; and when i stood up for the nations good , he villified my evidence , and afterwards he came to me with doctor _____ to beg my pardon ; but i would not forgive him for the whole world : and speaking of the king's evidence ; said he , the king's evidence are looked upon as nothing ; as poor inconsiderable mean fellows , and their sallaries are lessened ; and , said he , i have had the greatest proffers from court of preferment and rewards , if i would go from what i have said , and come upon the contrary ; and he repeated it , yes , upon the faith of a man , and from the highest ; but , said he , i have a soul and a body ; a body for a time , but my soul for eternity , and i cannot go from it . he went over it again ; i might have what i would if i would go from what i have said , and come upon the contrary . mr. attorn . gen. but he does not go from any thing of what he hath said . coll. did he say what he was offered , and by whom ? mr. broadg. he said he had very great offers from the court if he would disown the plot , and go upon the contrary . l. ch. just . but he does not disown it . mr. just . jones . nay , he had a soul to save , and could not go from it . mr. serj. jeff. you talk of the contrary , and the contrary ; what did he mean by that , what plot should he disown ? mr. broadg. the popish plot. l. ch. just . he does not disown it , nor never did disown it . coll. he would make a presbyterian plot of it now , for he cannot say i am in the popish plot. sir , do you know any thing more of him ? or did he name me ? or that he was to swear against me , or any protestant ? mr. broadg. no , only he said the king's evidence were villified , and looked upon , as poor inconsiderable fellows ; but it seemed if he would go on the other side , he might have great preferments and rewards . l. ch. just . you make a wrong comment upon it , mr. colledge ; it was if he would retract his evidence , and disown the plot. coll. i leave it to your lordship , and the jury , to make the sense of it . mr. broadg. i saw mr. turbervile since i come hither , and he asked , are you come , mr. broadgate , to give evidence against me ? says i , i am come to declare the truth , and nothing but the truth . mr. serj. jeff. you might have stay'd at home for any thing material that you do evidence . coll. call mr. zeal , ( who appeared . ) l. ch. just . what is your christian-name , sir ? mr. zeal . john. l. ch. just . what would you ask him ? mr. serj. holloway . where do you dwell , sir ? mr. zeal . in london . mr. serj. jeff. whereabouts ? mr. zeal . in fetter-lane . mr. serj. holl. what countryman are you , sir ? mr. zeal . somersetshire . mr. attorn . gen. whereabouts in somersetshire were you born ? mr zeal . by sir portman's , within six miles of him . mr. serj. jeff. what trade , sir ? mr. zeal . no trade . mr. serj. jeff. have you any estate ? mr. zeal . my father has . i was bred to wait upon a person of quality . coll. do you know turbervile , sir ? mr. zeal . yes sir , i do . coll. what do you know of him ? mr. zeal . sir , i know nothing but what mr. ivy told me with his own mouth . l. ch. just . do you know any thing of your own knowledge ? mr. attorn . gen. has mr. turbervile told you any thing ? mr. zeal . not concerning mr. colledge , he has not . coll. ivy was amongst them . mr. zeal . yes , my lord , he was the first that swore this presbyterian plot. l. ch. just . we know of no presbyterian plot. coll. can you say nothing of your own knowledge concerning turbervile ? mr. zeal . nothing but what mr. ivy told me . mr. serj. jeff. that is not of your own knowledge , and so it is nothing , for he is not produced in this cause . coll. pray , my lord , give me leave to call mr. ivy. mr. serj. jeff. do if you will. ( he stood up . ) coll. what was that you heard turbervile say of me , or of any presbyterian plot ? ivy. i never heard him say any thing concerning a presbyterian plot in my life . coll. did not you tell zeale of such a thing ? ivy. no , i never did . coll. hark you , mr. ivy ; you have sworn against me , have you not ? ivy. what i have sworn against you , or any other person , is true . coll. what have you sworn against me ? ivy. i am not bound to answer you . coll. did not you call me out , with macnamarra and haynes , to the hercules pillars ? l. ch. just . look you , mr. colledge , i will tell you something for law ; and to set you right ; whatsoever witnesses you call , you call them as witnesses to testifie the truth for you ; and if you ask them any questions , you must take what they have said as truth : therefore you must not think to ask him any question , and afterwards call another witness to disprove your own witness . coll. i ask him , was he the first time with us , when i was called out of the coffee-house to hear haynes's discovery ? l. ch. just . let him answer you if he will , but you must not afterwards go to disprove him . coll. if he were sworn against me , i would not ask him any questions , for he is among them . l. ch. just . ask him what you will. coll. i desire not if he have sworn against me , for truly i can't expect a good answer from him ; but he was by when haynes made his discovery . l. ch. just . will you ask him any questions ? coll. i ask whether he hath given any evidence against me any where ? ivy. i am not bound to answer you . l. ch. just . tell him if you have . ivy. yes , my lord , i have . coll. then i think he is no good witness for me , when he hath sworn against me . ivy. i have sworn against him and others . you know that you and i have had a great many intrigues about this business in hand , and how we dealt with mr. haynes . l. ch. just . look you ; he does not call you for a witness for him , you can testifie nothing , and so you must be quiet . coll. call mr. lewes . ( who appeared . ) l. ch. just . what is your christian name ? mr. lewes . william . coll. pray mr. lewes , what do you know about turbervile ? mr. lewes . i know nothing at all , i assure you , of him that is ill . coll. do you know any thing concerning any of the evidence that hath been given here . mr. lewes . if i knew any thing relating to you , i would declare it ; but i know something of mr. ivy : it has no relation to you , as i conceive , but against my lord of shaftsbury . l. ch. just . you would call ivy for a witness , and now you call one against him ; and that i told you ; you must not do , but ivy is not at all in this case . coll. do you know any thing of the rest of them ; haynes , or smith , or dugdale ? mr. lewes . no more than what mr. zeale told me , was told him . coll. do you know any thing of a presbyterian plot ? mr. lewes . if the court please to hear me , i will tell my knowledge of that ; but i know nothing that affects him in the least , only that which concerns my lord of shaftsbury . l. ch. just . that is nothing to the purpose ; call another . mr. lewes . there was not , to my knowledge , a word mentioned of your name : i will do you all the justice i can ; if i knew any thing concerning you , i would be sure to relate it . coll. i cannot say who can , or who cannot ; i am a stranger to all of it . l. ch. just . well , call your next witness . coll. my lord , there was a petition presented to the common council of london , wherein they set out , that they were tamper'd withal about a plot against the protestants . l. ch. just . a petition from whom ? coll. i cannot tell from whom ; from some of these witnesses . l. ch. just . who preferred and signed it ? coll. mr. turbervile was one . pray call doctor oates . l. ch. just . the prisoner calls upon you , mr. oates . what would you ask him , mr. colledge ? coll. where is the petition to the common council , doctor ? dr. oates . i have it here in my hand . l. ch. just . by whom was it presented ? dr. oates . it was given by mr. turbervile and mr. macnamarra , to mr. wilmore . l. ch. just . was you present when it was delivered ? dr. oates . mr. wilmore did deliver it to me before he was apprehended ; for , being to come down as a witness , he was taken up , and committed to prison . l. ch. just . whose hands are to it ? dr. oates . i know mr. turbervile's hand , he will not disown it . clerk. reads . it is subscribed edward turbervile , john macnamarra . l. ch. just . look you , mr. colledge ; what word is there in all this petition that is a contradiction to what they have said now ? coll. i did not hear it , my lord. l. ch. just . they say , they are constant witnesses for the king , against the papists ; and they have been tempted to unsay what they have said : how does that contradict what they say now ? coll. i suppose they say they have been tempted to turn the plot upon other people , and to make a plot upon the protestants . l. ch. just . they have been tempted , they say , by the papists , to unsay what they have said ; but the jury have heard it read , and will give it its due weight . will you ask mr. oates any questions ? coll. what do you know of mr. turbervile ? dr. oates . as to turbervile , my lord , a little before the witnesses were sworn at the old bayley , i met with mr. turbervile ; i was in a coach , but seeing mr. turbervile , i stept out of the coach , and spoke with him ; for , hearing that he was a witness , i did ask him whether he was a witness , or no , against colledge ? mr. turbervile said , he would break any one's head that should say so against him ; for he neither was a witness , nor could give any evidence against him . so , after he came from oxon , i met with mr. turbervile again ; and , hearing he had been there , i asked him if he had sworn any thing against colledge ? he said , yes , he had been sworn before the grand jury . said i , did not you tell me so and so ? why , said he , the protestant citizens have deserted us ; and , god damn him , he would not starve . l. ch. just . would he say so to you ? dr. oates . yes , my lord , he said those very words . mr. serj. jeff. 't is mr. oates saying , 't is mr. turbervile's oath . dr. oates . several times he did repeat it ; but when i asked him what he had sworn , he said i am not bound to satisfie peoples curiosities . l. ch. just . what say you to it , mr. turbervile ? mr. turbervile . my lord , the first part of the doctor 's discourse , in part is true ; i met him just at my lodgings , and the doctor alighted out of his coach , and spoke to me , and invited me to come to my old friends ; for he told me , they had some jealousie that i was not true to them : and he told me , if i would come to the king's head club , i should be received with a great deal of kindness : and never afterwards did i speak with the doctor a tittle about any evidence . l. ch. just . he says , you said you would break any one's head , that said you were an evidence against colledge ; for you were not , nor could be . mr. turbervile . there was no such thing said by me . mr. attorn . gen. upon your oath , did you tell him so ? mr. turbervile . upon my oath , i did not . mr. serj. jeff. did you tell him that other passage , when you swore you would not starve ? mr. turbervile . no , i did not . dr. oates . upon the word of a priest , what i say is true . my lord , i do say , as i am a minister , i speak it sincerely , in the presence of god ; this gentleman did say these words to me ; which made me afraid of the man , and i went my ways , and never spake with him afterwards , nor durst i ; for i thought he that would swear & curse after that rate , was not fit to be talked with . l. ch. just . 't is very improbable that he should say so to you . mr. turbervile . i always looked upon dr. oates as a very ill man , and never would converse much with him . l. ch. just . will you ask him any thing more ? coll. do you know any thing of the rest , doctor ? dr. oates . i know nothing of turbervile further , but that he did present this petition , wherein he says , he lay under great temptations to go on the other side , and accuse some protestants . and truly till i heard he was an evidence at oxon , after what he had said to me , i did not believe it . mr. attorn . gen. doctor oates , mr. turbervile hath not changed sides , you have ; he is still an evidence for the king , you are against him . dr. oates . mr. attorney , i am a witness for truth , against falshood and subornation ; and it cannot plainly be made to appear there is subornation against the protestants . and moreover , my lord , — l. ch. just . mr. oates , you would do well to explain your self . mr. serj. jeff. if there be any subornation relating to mr. turbervile , or any of the other witnesses that have now sworn against colledge , make it out doctor . dr. oates . there is , my lord , and there will be made further to appear in time to come . to my own knowledge as to mr. smith , mr. colledge and mr. smith had some provoking words passed betwixt them at richards coffee-house , and mr. smith comes out and swears , god damn him he would have colledges bloud . so , my lord , when i met him ; said i , mr. smith , you profess your self to be a priest , and have stood at the altar ; and now you intend to take upon you the ministery of the church of england , and these words do not become a minister of the gospel ; his reply was , god damn the gospel ; this is truth , i speak it in the presence of god , and man. l. ch. just . can you say any thing of any of the other witnesses . dr. oates . as for mr. dugdale , i was ingaged for him for li. for last lent assizes , he wanted money to go down to the assizes , having pay'd some debts , and pay'd away all his money ; and so i ingaged for li. that he borrowed of richard the coffee-man . after he came from oxen , i called upon him to hasten to get his money of the lords in the treasury , which , as near as i remember , was ordered him upon his petition , for so i heard . and at that time , said he , sir , i hear there is a great noise of my being an evidence ; against whom , said i , against several protestants , my lord shaftsbury , and others ; said i , i never heard any thing of it ; says he , there is no body hath any cause to make any such report of me , for i call god to witness i know nothing against any protestant in england . after that i met with dugdale at richards coffee-house , and pressing him for the money , and he saying he had it not just then , but would pay it in a little time : mr. dugdale , said i , you have gone i am afraid against your conscience ; i am sure against what you have declared to me ; said he , it was all long of colonel warcup , for i could get no money else . mr. att. gen. mr. oats is a through paced witness against all the king's evidence . mr. serj. jeff. and yet dr. oates had been alone in some matters had it not been for some of these witnesses . dr. oates . i had been alone perhaps , and perhaps not ; but yet , mr. serjeant , i had always a better reputation than to need theirs to strengthen it . mr. serj. jeff. does any man speak of your reputation ; i know no body does meddle with it , but you are so tender . coll. sir george , now a man is upon his life , i think , you do not do well to affront his witnesses . mr. serj. jeff. i do not affront him ; but now , my lord , pray give us leave to call our witnesses . mr. smith , pray stand up . l. ch. just . mr. smith , do you hear what mr. oates hath said . mr. smith . no , my lord. l. ch. just . then speak it again , mr. oates . dr. oates . yes , my lord , i will speak it to his face . he said coming out of richards coffee-house , they having had some provoking words , as i understood when i come in , god damn that colledge , i will have his blood ; and , my lord , when i did reprove him , and said to him , mr. smith , you have been a priest , and stood at the altar , and intend to be a minister of the church of england ; these words do not become a minister of the gospel ; and he replied , god damn the gospel ; and away he went. l. ch. just . what say you to it , mr. smith . mr. smith . not one word of this is true , upon my oath . 't is a wonderful thing you should say this of me ; but , i will sufficiently prove it against you , that you have confounded the gospel , and denied the divinity too . mr. serj. jeff. mr. dugdale , you heard what was said against you . dr. oates . my lord , now dugdale is come i will tell you something more . there was a report given out by mr. dugdale's means , that mr. dugdale was poysoned ; and in truth , my lord , it was but the pox. and this sham passed throughout the kingdom in our intelligencies ; and this i will make appear by the physician that cured him . mr. serj. jeff. that is but by a third hand . dr. oates . he did confess that he had an old clap , and yet he gave out he was poysoned ; but now , my lord , as to what i said before of him , i was ingaged for li. for mr. dugdale , do you own that ? mr. dugdale . i do own it . dr. oates . i did press upon you to hasten the payment of it . mr. dugdale . yes , you did . dr. oates . and did not you come to me and tell me , there was a noise of your being an evidence , it was in time just before my lord shaftsbury was taken up . mr. dugdale . i never spoke to you till you spake to me . dr. oates . my lord , he came , and said to me , there is a noise of my being an evidence ; now i had not heard it then ; but the day after i did hear it , and i did justifie mr. dugdale , because he had said to me that he had nothing against any protestant in england . so i did stand up in vindication of him ; but , my lord , after he had sworn at the old baily i met him again , and pressed him for the money , and urged him with it , why he had sworn against colledge , when he had told me so and so before , and he said it was all long of colonel warcup ; for he could not get his money else ; and colonel warcup did promise he should have a place at the custom-house . mr. dugd. upon the oath i have taken , and as i hope for salvation , it is not true . mr. serj. jeff. here is dugdale's oath against dr. oates's saying . dr. oates . mr. serjeant , you shall hear of this in another place . mr. attorn . gen. 't is an unhappy thing that dr. oates should come in against these men that supported his evidence before . mr. dugd. my lord , i say further , if any doctor will come forth and say he cured me of a clap , or any such thing , i will stand guilty of all that is imputed to me . l. ch. just . mr. colledge , will you call any other witnesses ? coll. my lord , i think this is not fair dealing with a man for his life ; because these men be upon their oaths , and deny the things again that my witnesses prove , therefore what they swear must needs be taken for truth : but if my witness comes and says such a thing upon the word of a minister , and in the presence of god , and which he is ready to maintain by an oath , sure it is not to stand for nothing ; nor he to be hooted out of court , because mr. dugdale denies it upon his oath , i do suppose he will not acknowledge it . but , my lord , i am the prisoner and cannot be heard as a witness for my self : but god is my witness , he hath said a great deal more to me formerly ; and he hath told me when i have seen him with warcup , and asked him why i kept company with warcup , and others ; said he , i know they are suspected men , but i must keep company with them to get my money ; what would you have me do , starve . and when i lent him money out of my pocket , and trusted him with my horse , i dun'd him for money and could not get it ; said i , will you pay me the li. i lent you ; he put me off , said he , i shall have it , for the attorney general hath made up his accompts , and is very kind to me ; why then , said i , why have you it not ; said he , he is my friend , and i do not question the getting of it ; but here is new work to be done , such work as my conscience will not serve me to do ; there is more roguery , they will never have done plotting , and counterplotting ; but they will make a thousand plots if they can to destroy the real one . l. ch. just . can you prove this now ? coll. no , it was spoken to my self ; and no body was by but my self . l. ch. just . then you should not speak it . but you asked the question whether a man may not be believed upon his word , as well as he that is upon his oath . your witnesses are not upon their oaths , but they may be witnesses , and their weight is to be left with the jury ; they will consider how improbable it is , that these men should come , three men to one man , and all of them should speak that which would make themselves rogues and villains ; and that one man of them , smith , should say such vile words , as , god damn him , he would have his blood , and , god damn the gospel : that dugdale should confess he was wrought upon by warcup to testifie against his conscience ; and that turbervile should say to that purpose , he would not starve ; they have sworn the contrary , and so there are all these three mens oaths against one mans affirmation ; but it must be left to the jury . colledge . there is his affirmation against what they three say . he charges every one of them , and 't is but the single denial of every one of them to his charge . l. c. j. 't is improbable they should own themselves such villains to him . dr. oats . they must be so , if they will do what they have undertaken . i hope my word will be believed as soon as their oaths . colledge . it is not to be thought , but when they have sworn so against me , they will deny any such thing when they are charged with it . l. c. j. have you done with your witnesses ? or will you call any more ? colledge . what is said upon an honest mans word in the face of a court , is certainly to be believed as well as what is sworn . l. c. j. 't is a testimony , that is most certain , and must be left to the jury , they must weigh one against the other . but pray mr. colledge will you call your witnesses , for it begins to grow late . colledge . there is mr. wilmore , that was a material witness for me , who was foreman of the grand jury , that would not find the bill upon this evidence . what he had to say i don't know , but i am informed it was very material for me . l. c. j. it will be enough for him to clear himself , for he is charged with high treason , and by two witnesses too . colledge . call alexander blake . l. c. j. what do you ask him ? colledge . do you know john smith ? mr. blake . yes , sir. colledge . pray will you tell the court what you know of john smith . mr. blake . i suppose you mean this gentleman . mr. john smith , gent. came to me one morning , and told me there was one haynes under examination , and this haynes had discovered very material things against some great persons : this passed , and within few days after i met mr. smith at the exchange coffee-house , and having saluted him , i desired him to drink a glass of wine , and so we went to the sun tavern , and when we were there , i asked him , what his sence was of haynes and his discovery ? said he , 't is a sham plot : i asked him , what he meant by that sham plot ? said he , 't is a meal-tub plot. this is all that i know . l. c. j. would you ask him any thing else ? mr. blake . i know nothing more . colledge . do you know any thing of turbervill or dugdale ? mr. blake . sir , i have no acquaintance with him , nor desire it . but i was acquainted with this gent. mr. smith , i know him very well . mr. serg. jefferies . you say well , stand down . colledge . call mr. samuel smith . l. c. j. what ask you him ? colledge . what he knows of mr. smith ? mr. s. smith . mr. john smith and i have had an intimacy and acquaintance several moneths , and since mr. john smith swore at the old baily against mr. colledge , and was gone out of town , several people have talked with me concerning him , and asking me , what i thought of him ? i told them , i believed he was an honest man , however i would not believe otherwise till i knew a reason of it . they told me , that he had sworn against mr. colledge , that he was to seize the king at the parliament at oxford , and that there was barrels of powder , and it was to carry on a presbyterian plot : said i , i will never believe it , and the rather because he hath said to me often , there was a popish plot , but he does not believe any presbyterian or protestant plot : and , said i further , as to his giving any evidence with irish-men , i believe it the less for that , for i have heard him often say , they were a company of rogues that had done the protestant interest more harm than ever they could do it good , and bid me have a care of coming into their company , and many other such things , that mr. smith here knows to be true . then , my lord , when mr. smith came home ( for i was very impatient till he did come home to hear every day such things said against him ) i went to him to see him . said i , cousin smith , i have had great confronts about you since you went away , but i hope you can't be that ill man you are represented to be , and truly i should be sorry it should be so : pray cousin , said i , i have put every man off with this , that i would suspend my belief of you till i had spoken with you your self ; what is the evidence you have given ? they say , you have sworn a presbyterian plot , or a protestant plot , a design of seizing the king at oxon , and of so many barrels of gun-powder that were provided . says my cousin , i did swear no such thing , nor never a word of any such thing as a protestant plot , or a presbyterian plot , and pray do not believe it of me . no , said i , i thought you could not swear any such thing , because you have said often to me , you believed there was no such thing . i do not believe it yet said he , and as to whatsoever colledge said , i did not believe it , for he did not believe it himself . and mr. smith told me after his return that he did not know of any protestant concerned in the plot. l. c. j. he does not say now 't is a protestant plot. mr. s. smith . so far from that , that he told me after his return he did not know any protestant concerned in the plot. l. c. j. mr. smith , thus i understand you . you say that he said to you , that he had not testified anything of a protestant plot , nor did believe there was any protestant plot , for he did not believe what colledge said himself : so by that discourse it seems he did not deny , but he had testified against mr colledge , but he did not believe there was any protestant plot ? mr. s. smith . no , my lord , he did not deny but he had sworn against colledge . mr. just . jones . nor that what he had said against colledge was true ? mr. s. s. no my lord , but he did not believe him , and he thought colledge did not believe it himself . mr. s. jeff. it seems mr. colledge thinks the whole protestant interest concerned in him . l. c. j. the question is mr. colledge , what you had in your mind , not what was in the mind of all the protestants . mr. s. s. this i do say , i would not speak more nor less than the truth , he did not deny , but he had heard colledge speak those words he swore , but he did not believe him , and i think mr. smith hath said that , at another time before mr. gardner . colledge . if he knew of no protestant plot , it was very unlikely that i should attempt such a thing my self . mr. s. s. my lord , i find mr. smith hath been very passionate and very inveterate of late against other men that he hath given me a very good report of before ; and when i was talking of this , i was saying , if it be true that people say of you , a man goes in danger of his life to converse with you . mr. smith said he , i do not care for all the men between wapping and charing-cross , there is never a man that will forbear my company , but would do or say as much as colledge hath done or said . mr. j. smith . 't is true , and i say so still . colledge . 't is a contradiction in it self , that there should be such a design and none but my self to do it . god my righteous judges knows my innocency . mr. just . jones . you might say those words in hopes they would be of your party and made so by your libels and poysonous pictures . l. c. j. come , call another witness . colledge . call mr. tho. gardner , but my lord , how likely is it that i should say , that i would seize the king , when he it seems says , he did not believe there was one man to stand by me ? l. c. j. what say you to this gentleman ? colledge . i never saw him in my life . mr. gardner . nor i you sir. colledge . i know not three of all that come here . l. c. j. well , will you ask him any thing ? colledge . pray do you know mr. smith ? mr. gardner . yes . colledge . what do you know of him ? can you say any thing concerning this matter that is sworn against me of treason ? mr. gardner . my lord , this day fortnight i think it was , mr. s. smith the gent. that was just now up before me , sent for me to the rummer in queen-street to drink a glass of wine , where when i came , i found him and mr. j. smith that is here , whom they call narrative smith , talking very briskly concerning one colledge , i suppose that is the gentleman , and the jury that acquitted him , and he said that or of the jury-men were rascals and villains , and says he , they talk up and down the town as if i did intend to sham the popish plot , and to make a protestant plot , which said he , i vow to god , and i will justifie it before god and all the world , that i know of no protestant plot , nor is there any protestant concerned in a plot to my knowledge , but this colledge , and upon his tryal i believe he will be made appear to be more a papist than a protestant ; but says mr. smith to him , now you are known to be a witness in this case , it will be a dangerous thing for a man to converse with you . coll. will it be now known that i am a papist ? no man could ever say so in this world . mr. gardner . says he , i care not what all the world says of me , and i do not value all the men from wapping to charing-cross , but that man that will shun my company will say and do as much to the king as colledge hath done . but then i was saying , me thinks it seems an improbable thing , that such a man as colledge should seize upon the king or provide barrels of powder and those other things . upon my word , said he , with some passion , clapping his hand upon his breast , when mr. colledge did say it , i did not believe a word of it , and upon my faith i believe colledge himself did not believe it when he told me so . colledge . do you know any thing more sir ? mr. gardner . no indeed mr. colledge . colledge . call dr. oats again . l. c. j. well , what say you to him ? colledge . pray dr. oats mr. smith charges me that i should speak some treasonable words that time that alderman wilcox gave you a treat at the crown tavern you were there , and pray how long ago was it ? dr. oats . my lord , i heard mr. smith speaking of it at the old-baily , and if you please to take notice it was thus , this summer was twelve-month , or i am sure a great while before christmas the alderman had invited me several times to give me a treat , and i had not time , other business calling me off , but finding a time , i sent him word i would come and see him . he said he was a brewer and troubled at home with customers , but he would give me a dinner at the grown tavern without temple-bar , that was the place fixed upon ; there was mr. smith the counsellor , who had been serviceable to me in several instances i did get him to go along with me , and mr. colledge was with us , and i heard smith swearing at the old-baily that mr. colledge and he had discourse from the rainbow coffee-house where we met , and went together . colledge . there i was invited by alderman wilcox . dr. oats . but my lord i will tell my story , i am not to tell smith's , colledge did tell me he was invited ; said i , you shall be welcome as far as i can make you welcome . so colledge and i went together from the rainbow coffee-house to the crown tavern : now indeed colledge was very pleasant and merry , and as i think , the discourse betwixt the rainbow coffee-house and the tavern was betwixt mr. colledge and me ; for m. smith stayed somewhat behind or walked before , i cannot tell which : when we came to the crown tavern we did , to divert our selves till dinner came up , enter into a philosophical discourse with one mr. savage who was formerly a romish priest , but this savage is since pardoned by the king and is a member of the church of england , and hath been professor of divinity and philosophy beyond sea. this as i remember was the discourse before we dined till we went to dinner , it was concerning the existence of god , whether that could be proved by natural demonstration , and whether or no the soul was immortal . my lord , after dinner smith went away , i did not hear the least discourse of any such thing as he speaks of , and mr. smith and colledge had no discourse in my hearing from the coffee-house to the tavern ; and when we were in the tavern we did discourse about those two points . counsellor smith , my lord , will justifie a great deal of this , and my brother too , who was with us . but when i heard mr. smith swear as he did about this matter at the old-baily , i did really my lord , in my conscience look upon him to be forsworn in that particular . mr. ser. jeff. and he does swear you are out in this . l. c. j. will you ask him any more questions ? dr. oats . if your lordship please he speaks of mr. wilcox to be a man that contributed money to buy arms , powder , and shot , i think sr. george jefferies knows alderman wilcox is a man of another employment . mr. s. jeff. sir george jefferies does not intend to be an evidence i assure you . l. c. j. do you ask him any more questions ? dr. oats . i do not desire sr. george jefferies to be an evidence for me , i had credit in parliaments , and sr george had disgrace in one of them . mr. ser. jeff. your servant doctor , you are a witty man and a philosopher . colledge . call mr. thomas smith . l. c. j. what would you ask of him now ? colledge . counsellor smith , here is john smith , or narrative smith , which you please to call him , hath charged me with speaking treason at our going to dinner at wilcox's , i remember you were there , and i think you and i and dr. oats and his brother and mr. godwin wharton went together ; i did tell mr. smith of it , but i did not stir a step out of the coffee-house with him , but went away before him , how long ago is it since we had that dinner ? mr. t. smith . my lord , if your lordship please , i do very well remember mr. alderman wilcox , so they called him , did desire to give dr. oates a treat with some other of his friends at the crown tavern without temple-bar ; but really my lord , as to the certain time i do not remember it , but to my best remembrance , my lord , it was before christmas last , and some time before christmas last . and my lord , i was there all the time , mr. smith was at that time somewhat a stranger to me , something i had heard of his name , and i did stay there all the while ; i remember mr. alderman wilcox was to go out of town that day ; and truly as to any thing of matter of treason , or treasonable words , or any thing tending towards it , i am confident nothing was , or could be spoken , and the room was a very small room , and our company did fill it up , and the table was so big , that there was little more than for the servitors to go about , so that any man might easily hear from the one end of the room to the other . i remember there was some discourse betwixt dr. oates and mr. savage , who i think hath been a jesuit , and it was about some points of philosophy and divinity ; but for treason , i do not remember the least of it , and i am confident colledge said not any such thing at that time , and my reason is this , i very well remember mr. colledge did set himself down upon one side of the table , and fell asleep , and unless he talked treason in his sleep , there could not be any such thing said , and if it had been said , it would have been heard . mr. att. gen. mr. smith , did you never hear mr. colledge speak any ill words of the king ? mr. t. smith . never in my life . and if i were now to take the sacrament upon it , i could say so . mr. serg. jefferies . you used to converse with him , mr. smith , did he never say any thing like it to you ? mr. t. smith . good mr. sergeant , you know i can take the sacrament ; pray let us have no reflections . mr. serg. jefferies . who did reflect upon you ? i did not reflect upon you . mr. just . jones . mr. smith , did he never deliver you any of those pictures ? mr. t. smith . no , sir , he never did . colledge . good sir george don't reflect upon my evidence . it seems smith is mistaken in the time , for he says , it was at christmas , but mr. smith says , it was some time before . l. c. j. mr. smith does not say so , the certain time he cannot tell exactly ; but your witnesses say , it was then . mr. t. smith . i do speak as much as if i were upon my oath ; and i know what an oath is , i thank god ; and what it is to speak before a court of judicature , and i know , and do speak truth as much as if i were upon my oath ; and i do say i did not hear colledge , or any one else that was in that company , at that time speak any thing reflecting upon the king and government , or any thing tending towards it . mr. just . jones . can you remember a matter so distinctly , which dr. oates says was a year and half ago ? l. c. j. no , this summer was twelve moneth . mr just . jones . and can you tell so long ago , not onely your own actions , but testifie to all other mens actions too that were in the room ? mr. t. smith . i cannot tell what dr. oates's memory is as to the time , but i remember the place , the occasion , and the persons that were there . mr. just . jones . and you take upon you to have such a perfect memory , as to the actions of all the persons that were in the room ? mr. t. smith . i do not speak of all that was done ; but i say , i remember no such thing that was said , and i believe no such thing was said , and have given you my reasons why . but my lord , that which i say further for mr. colledge , is this ; i do hear something pretended , as if he provided arms to go for oxford . i have known him this three years , or thereabouts ; and my lord , i do know that he did usually ride with a case or pistols before him . and before that time i had occasion to borrow his horse of him , at the election for westminster the last parliament that sat there , and i had it then with a case of pistols . i likewise borrowed it at michaelmas last , the same horse , and the same pistols they were , i did at the same time see a suit of silk armour , which he told me he did provide against the papists , for he said , he did expect we should have a brush with them . said i , do not trouble your self for that , they dare not meddle ; said he , this will do no harm . and as i remember , it was a suit of armour made of silk to wear under a coat . coll. it was silk armour only for the thrust of a sword. and i assure you my lord , i had but one suit , but one case of pistols , and but one horse , i had two before , but they did not then make a traitor of me , that was all that ever i had , but if i had had ten horses , and never so many armors i declare it upon my salvation , i intended it for nothing but against the papists , if they should make a disturbance , and whatever i did was with that design , and truly by the grace of god i would not have been the last man then , but i see whatever i provided my self with for that , they have turned it all another way , that it might be believed the protestants were against the king and the established government . l. c. j. those observations may be proper for you at last , go on now with your evidence . coll. my lord , i am not a man of that great memory , i may forget it , and therefore i speak it now whilst i think of it . l. c. j. set it down in your paper . coll. smith says i talked with him coming from richard's coffee-house till we came to the tavern , i do declare it , i went away before him , and went away with dr. oats . l. c. j. ask mr. smith that question if you will. coll. pray sir , do you know who went together thither ? mr. t. smith . i dare not undertake to say that , i cannot tell whether he went from the rainbow coffee-house with us , or no. coll. he says after we had dined we divided our selves into cabals , two and two together , i do declare it as that which is the real truth i fell asleep behind the table , if any body was divided it is more than i know , but mr. smith you can tell , because he says i spoke treason to him when i was in the room , he and i in one cabal . mr. t. s. my lord , i remember nothing of that , nor do believe it , for i told you the room was so little that we could not divide our selves , and it is impossible in such a little compass where we were so many as we were , , or of us ; it may be one might talk to another that was next to him , but then the company must hear , and whether they did so or no , i cannot tell , i do not remember mr. smith's saying any thing to any particular person , but the great ingagement was between dr. oats and mr. savage , and about some questions in divinity , and that is the great matter i took notice of . coll. however , my lord , i declare it , that was above a month ago , and i hope your lordship and the jury does observe that there was no new arms were found , but what were provided a great while ago ; all that know me , know i was never without a case of pistols and an horse , though i was but a joyner , and there is no more that you see now . and as to what smith said about our going into cabals that you hear mr. smith denies . l. c. j. will you call any other witnesses ? coll. yes , if it please your lordship . do you know no more sir ? mr. t. smith . i know no other thing , if i did , i would declare it . coll. call dr. oats's brother , mr. samuel oats . my lord , thus you see smith's testimony is false . l. c. j. i do not see this contradicts his oath , for he speaks of several times that he did speak with you , one was at wilcox's which is this they speak of . coll. mr. smith says there was only that great discourse going on in the room , and there was no such things as cabals which he speaks of . l. c. j. what do yo say as to this witness ? coll. do you know narrative smith ? mr. oats . yes sir. coll. what do you know of him ? were you at the dinner which mr. wilcox gave your brother ? mr. oats . yes , yes , i was at that dinner . coll. were you at the coffee-house when i went along with your brother ? mr. oats . yes , we went with you . coll. did mr. smith go with us ? mr. oats . yes mr. smith followed us . coll. did you hear any treasonable discourse between us ? mr. oats . not the least of a little word . coll. did we go into cabals two and two together there ? mr. oats . there was nothing at all of cabals that i saw , from the time of going to dinner ; for we came just as dinner was going into the room as i remember . mr. serj. jeff. what do you mean by cabals ? mr. oats . that is as i discern by mr. colledge as if there had been cabals amongst the company . mr. just . jones . that is going by couples . mr. oats . yes , yes . mr. ser. jeff. what did they talk of ? mr. oats . there was nothing at all spoken of ? mr. ser. jeff what did they say nothing all the while ? mr. oats . nothing but matter of common discourse , matters of eating and drinking , and talking of country affairs , there were several that had 〈◊〉 in the countrey and they were talking of those things . mr. just . jones . were you there all the while ? mr. oats . yes . mr. ser. jeff. hark you sir , were there no disputations in divinity ? mr. oats . not at all . mr. s. jeff. nor of philosophy ? mr. oats . no. mr. s. jeff. why pray sir did not dr. oats and mr. savage talk very pleasantly of two great questions in divinity , the being of god , and the immortality of the soul ? mr. oats . there was not a word of that , but only common discourse . mr. s. jeff. are you sure there was no such thing ? mr. oats . not that i know of in the least , i sat at table with them . mr. s. jeff. was it such a little room that you could hear all was said ? mr. oats there was room enough . l. c. j. people cannot give a perfect account of all things that have passed so long ago . coll. i did not hear that discourse my self , because i was asleep behind the table ; and perhaps mr. oats cannot remember it . mr. sol. gen. was it before dinner , or after dinner that colledge fell asleep behind the table ? mr. oats . he was not asleep to my remembrance all the while . mr. s. jeff. recollect your self , pray , was mr. colledge asleep there ? mr. oats . i do not remember he was . l. c. j. 't is impossible to give an account , and therefore witnesses in negatives are of little value . coll. did mr. smith and you and i go together ? mr. oats . mr. smith followed us . l. c. j. how do you know that ? mr. oats . for you and i , and my brother went together ; you were a saying when we came out of the coffee-house in a jocose way , come dr. i will go along with you and be one of your guard. you spoke it in a jesting way , so you may if you please said my brother . and so he went by my brother's side , and i went by mr. colledge's side . coll. do you remember how long ago that was ? mr. oats . it was the last summer but to say exactly what month i cannot . mr. s. gen. mr. oats answer me this question , pray sir. mr. oats . yes , sir. mr. s. gen. from what place did you go . mr. oats . from richards coffee-house . mr. s. g. who went along with colledge ? mr. oats . he came along with my brother and me ; for he said to my brother , i will be one of your guard. mr. s. g. who went along with mr. smith ? mr. oats . i don't know , i took very little notice of things . mr. serg. jeff. 't is sufficient that he can tell who went with colledge . mr. oats . i remember one thing : mr. smith would fain have perswaded me into something that my brother should talk , but i heard nothing ; said i , do not examine me upon such things , for i took little notice of any thing ; but this i can say , whereas he does charge mr. wilcox , the gentleman did not speak five words all the time he was there . mr. ser. jeff. he does not use to be so melancholy , i assure you . mr. oats . i did wonder at it my self , but he was not long with us , for i do not think he was there a quarter of the time ; it seems he had a son sick in the countrey , and he was going thither . colledge . have you any thing against macnamarra ? l. c. j. he is no witness here . coll. do you know any thing against mr. dugdale ? mr. oats . no , not i. coll. then i can say no more to you . l. c. j. call another witness . coll. call mr. bolron . l. c. j. what do you ask him ? coll. do you know john smith ? mr. bolron . yes . colledge . what say you against him ? mr. bolron . may it please your lordship , the last th . of july mr. smith , and mr. mowbray , and my self were travelling from york towards london . we lay the th . at _____ and the th . we were travelling towards london : mr. smith did ask me , if i did remember what discourse there was betwixt sir john brooks and i at ferry-bridge , when we were coming up before to london ? i desired him to tell me what discourse , and i would tell him if i did remember it or no. so my lord he did say , the discourse was , that sir john brooks did say , there would be cutting of throats at oxford , and that the parliament did go provided , some with , some with , some with men , and they were to meet at grantham , and go together . this discourse i did remember , that sir john brooks said , they went with horse and arms to secure them from highway-men ; and sir john brooks did then further declare , that the discourse was , there would be cutting of throats at oxford , which made them go with arms to defend themselves . mr. smith did further upon the , , , and th . of july ( and it was our frequent discourse ) tell me , that he had given his majesty an account of it , which occasioned the dissolving of the parliament : that discourse that was made to the king , was , that sir john brooks should say , there would be cutting of throats at oxford , and that the parliament-men went provided with or , or men a piece ; and he did tell me , he had given a further account , that there was to be a consult at grantham , wherein it was resolved , that it was better to seize the king , than to let him go on . now , this i knew nothing of , but he would have perswaded me to have given in this evidence against sir john brooks , as to this discourse . but i declare , i did never hear it , and mr. smith was the first man that ever i heard it from , i never heard it before in my life . colledge . would he have had you been an evidence , and swore it ? mr. bolron . yes ; he said he had given an account of it to the king , and if i did manage it rightly against my lord shaftesbury and colledge , he would make me for ever ; those two persons were mentioned all along . but i do declare it , i did never hear them speak treason against the king in my life . and he did further tell me , that i must say so and so ; for if we did not agree , it would signifie nothing . but my lord , i know nothing of the matter , i never heard any one speak of it but mr. smith . my lord , this is true , mr. mowbray was the man that was by when it was discoursed . mr. just . jones . he would have had you sworn it , would he ? mr. bolron . i discovered it to my lord mayor . mr. att. gen. when did you discover it ? mr. bolron . soon after i came to town . mr. att. gen. when was it ? mr. bolron . some time last week . mr. att. gen. was it on saturday last ? mr. bolron . it was the beginning of the week . mr. serg. jefferies . thou art such a discoverer . mr. bolron . my lord , 't is very true what i say . if i had known any such thing , i would have discovered it . mr. serg. jefferies . thou wouldest have discovered it before that time , of my conscience . colledge . my lord , he hath been an evidence against the papists as well as mr. smith , and therefore pray sir george don't make your flourishes upon him . mr. serg. jefferies . he was an evidence , but he had the misfortune never to be believed . mr. att. gen. do you know any thing of any pictures of mr. colledge's making ? have you seen raree shew ? mr. bolron . never in my life . mr. att. gen. did you not shew it in oxford ? mr. bolron . no , never in my life . mr. serg. holloway . did you never declare to any gentleman of oxford , that colledge made this picture ? mr. bolron . i have seen the character of a popish successor , but i never saw raree shew . mr. serg. holloway . here is the very gentleman , my lord , that will make oath of it . mr. bolron . he was supposed to make them , i did not know that he did . mr. serg. jefferies . i do only desire one thing , i do not say , that you ever had raree shew , but did you ever tell any body that colledge made any of these pictures ? mr. bolron . i have heard of such a paper , but i did never see it in my life . mr. serg. jefferies . do you know that gentleman , mr. bolron ? mr. bolron . i know him not . mr. serg. jefferies . i would ask you , whether you ever had any discourse with that gentleman ? mr. bolron . never in my life . then the gentleman was sworn , being a master of arts. mr. serg. jefferies . what is the gentlemans name ? mr. serg. holloway . mr. charlett , of trinity colledge . mr. serg. jefferies . pray sir , do you know that person there ? mr. charlett . my lord , in the new coffee-house that was by the schools , that was set up in the parliament-time , there was a gentleman that is in the court ( i think ) one mr. dashwood , and one mr. box were there together to drink a dish of coffee , and hearing that some of the evidence were there , we desired their company up , and that gentleman was one ; and among other discourse , they were speaking of some pictures , and they shewed us the picture of the tantivies . mr. s. jeff. did this man shew it you ? mr. char. this very man , it was the pictures of the tantivies and the towzer , & he told me they were made by colledge , he was a very ingenious man. mr. bolr. i know nothing of it , the character of a popish successor i have seen , but never the other , i never shewed him any such thing . then the pictures were shewn him . mr. char. it was something like this , but i cannot say for any of the other . mr. bolr. the character of a popish successor , i say i have seen , and colledge himself hath told me he made the character of a popish successor , i do not deny that i have seen that . l. c. j. would you ask him any more questions ? mr. bolr. my lord , i have something more to say concerning mr. brian hains ; in january , february and april last , several times i was in his company , and i heard him say , he knew nothing of a popish plot , nor of a presbyterian plot neither , but if he were to be an evidence he did not care what he swore , but would swear and say any thing to get money . mr. just . jones . did he tell you so ? mr. bolr. yes , i did hear him say , to day he would be a papist , to morrow a presbyterian , he did not care for religion , he would never die for religion , he would be of that religion that had the strongest party . my lord , he told me so at my own house in fleetstreet . colledge . he would say any thing for money , pray my lord take notice of that , for so i find he does . mr. bolron . then there is dennis macnamarra , and john macnamarra . mr. ser. jeff. we have nothing to say to them ? colledge . they have been evidences against me , though you do not now produce them , they are all in a string , but they are not now brought because my witnesses are prepared to answer them . l. c. j. will you call your next witness ? colledge . mr. mowbray , pray sir do you know narrative smith , as he calls himself ? mr. mowbray , yes , my lord. colledge . what do you know of it ? mr. mowbray . i came up from york with him when i returned , after i was commanded down upon the kings account to give in evidence against sir miles stapleton , he came to me the third of august , and called at my house in yorkshire , and was very importunate for me to come up to london with him , for he said , he had a letter come to him which commanded his presence at london very suddenly , and he produced that letter which he said came from a gentleman of the court , or some court dependent ; so he read the letter in mr. balron's hearing . we set forward on sunday , and upon our journey to london he told me he had something of importance to impart to me , so upon the road he began to discourse of the parliament and of the illegal proceedings and arbitrary power of the last parliaments , he said their proceedings were very illegal and arbitrary , and he began to open some of the votes as that which they voted , that those that should lend the king money upon the crown lands , should be enemies to the king and kingdom , and those that counselled the king to dissolve the parliament ; and he repeated many votes , and said he , these are signs of arbitrary power , and certainly they design to take off the king ; so he proceeded further to ask me what was the discourse of sir john brooks when we came up before , and he did much importune me to say , that sir john brooks did affirm there would be cutting of throats at oxford , and that the king was to be seized there . i told him i could have no plausible pretence , because i had no acquaintance with sir john brooks , nor did i come up wih him , upon which he applied himself to bolron , and importun'd him for the same , he asked me who i came up with , i told him i came up with members of parliament , my lord fairfax , sir john hewly , and mr. stern ; he asked me what discourse we had upon the road ? and he asked , whether they had any discourse that tended to justifie their former votes ? for he said , if they did think to justifie any thing of those votes , or if they would not allow the king money , and stood upon the bill of exclusion , he said , that was pretence enough for any man to swear that there was a design against the king , and that the king was to be seized at oxford . colledge . an excellent pretence indeed , and like the rest . mr. mow. he would have tempted me to swear against my lord shaftesbury the same . and he said , it would be well if i did appear on colledges tryal at oxon , for it was a thing of great consequence ; the popish plot was thrown out of doors , and no man was looked upon that did speak of it . mr. just . jones . was all this in the presence of mr. bolron ? mr. mow. no , my lord. when he was discoursing about sir john brooks , mr. bolron rid up to us , and he applied himself to him , because i told him i had no plausible pretence to swear against him , having no acquaintance with him . mr. s. jeff. pray sir , let me ask you one question , when came you from york ? mr. mow. we set forward the d. day of august from wentbridge . mr. s. jeff. pray who came with you in the company ? mr. m. mr. bolron . mr. ser. jeff. that was a sunday , as i take it . mr. mow. yes . mr. s. jeff. then pray how long did you continue before you came to lond. mr. mow. i think we came in on the thursday after . mr. s. jeff. when was the first time mr. smith came into your company ? mr. mow. upon the road on sunday . mr. s. jeff. was that the first time ? mr. mow. yes . he had been at york , and went further , and afterwards came to us . mr. s. jeff. when did you come from york ? mr. mow. about the thursday before , if i be not mistaken . mr. s. jeff. was it in a week before ? mr. mow. yes , within a week it was . mr. s. jeff. and you and mr. bolron came together ? mr. mow. yes . mr. ser. jeff. and you left mr. smith behind ? mr. mow. yes . mr. ser. jeff. and he overtook you upon the road ? mr. mow. yes : he was to go further into the north as soon as the tryal of sir miles stapleton was over , and therefore he did very much importune me to stay in the countrey till he came to go up with me . mr. ser. jeff. what day was the tryal of sir miles stapleton ? mr. mow. on the monday before . mr. s. j. you are sure of that , & that mr. smith went further into the north. mr. mow. i see him take horse . mr. ser. jeff. but he did not come into the company of you and mr. bolron till the sunday after that . mr. mow. see ye , sir , he did desire me to stay in the countrey till he came , for he had a business of great concernment to impart to me , but it would be a week or a fortnight ere he came , but yet he came in a shorter time , for he said , he had received a letter that brought him up . mr. serg. jeff. you are sure of this ? mr. mow. yes . mr. serg. jeff. and you did not see him from the monday before , till that sunday ? mr. mow. no , no. mr. s. jeff. now then , i ask you , where was that place that he met with you ? mr. mow. at wentbridge . mr. s.j. and then you came from thence towards london the next day ? mr. mow. yes . mr. s. jeff. now would i desire to know of you , for i perceive he did attack you to say something against sir john brooks , and finding that you could not do it , because you had no acquaintance , he applied himself to bolron . i would know , was it between that place and london ? mr. mow. yes , it was . mr. s. jeff. and after the d. of august ? mr. mow. yes , it was after we set out . mr. s. jeff. i thought it had been the th . of july that you set out , and continued your journey the , , , , & th . alas , we have lost a great deal of time between mr. bolron and mr. mowbray . bolron said , it was the th . they lay at such a place , and you are gotten to the d. of august ; you are mistaken certainly , as to point of time . mr. mow. see , sir , i will look in my almanack , 't is all set down there . mr. s.j. let us see now if your oxford journey be as well set down , as your journey to lond. is . mr. mow. here is my almanack , sir. mr. jones . here , look upon his almanack . mr. ser. jeff. mr. jones , i don't care for his almanack , i had rather mr. mow. and mr. bolron could bring their almanacks together , and i would have them compared to see whether the d. of august in one be the th . of july in the other . did you discourse with him upon the road the d. of august , and not before , and bolron that came up with you , discourse with him the th . of july ? mr. mow. i am mistaken , i find . mr. ser. jeff. ay , that you are , one of you most grosly . mr. mow. see , sir , here is my almanack , whereby i find that it is my mistake ; but pray see , sir , here it is set down , the day we came out was the . the day we came to london was the . mr. s. jeff. how didst thou set out the of august from that place , and yet come to london the th . of july ? mr. mow. i will refer my self to mr. smith , as to the time we came up , & here is my almanack . mr. s. jeff. i will believe thy almanack to speak truth , though it have never so many errors about the changes of the weather , sooner than i will believe thee . coll. i perceive the man is mistaken in the moneth and the time ; but pray my lord will you please to see , for justice sake , if the almanack be new writ . l. c. j. look you , here is the matter , mr. colledge , he was asked again , and again , what day it was , and he was positive to the d. of august . coll. he was mistaken , but his almanack is right . l. c. j. he speaks rashly , that is the best can be said . mr. mow. it was a mistake of mine , sir george , but my almanack is right . mr. ser. jeff. nay , mr. mowbray , don't enter into dialogues with me , i only make a little observation upon your almanack . mr. mow. it was only my mistake . l. c. j. you are a rash man to affirm so : if you had an almanack , you should have consulted it , or referred to it . mr. ser. jeff. nay , we have lost a day even by your almanack ; for yours says , it was the th . you came to town , bolron the th . mr. mow. i refer my self to mr. smith , he can't deny , but he came up with us at that time . mr. s. jeff. you were examined at sir miles stapletons tryal , was you not , mr. mowbray ? mr. mow. i was an evidence there . mr. s. jeff. did the jury believe you ? mr. mow. they did acquit sir miles stapleton . coll. that is nothing to the purpose ; so was mr. smith too . l. c. j. would you ask any thing further ? coll. call mrs. mary bolron . l. c. j. if you have any more witnesses , pray call them . mr. just . jones . mr. mowbray , was bolron's wife by when this discourse was ? mr. mow. no , she was in town , she did not go down with him at all . l. c. j. are you bolron's wife ? mrs. bolron . yes . l. c. j. well , what do you ask her ? coll. mrs. bolron , pray do you know mr. john smith ? mrs. bol. yes , i do know him . coll. what can you say of him ? mrs. bol. he sent several times for my husband and mr. mowbray to my house , something he would have them be concerned in , some business he had in hand . l. c. j. when was that ? mrs. bol. within this weeks , since he came up from york assizes . coll. you may see there was an understanding between them then . mr. just . jones . did they go accordingly ? mrs. bol. now and then they have gone to him , but they knew his business , because they had discourse with him , as they said , upon the road , and they would not go . l. c. j. would you ask her any thing else ? what do you know more ? mrs. bolron . nothing , for i am not one that stirs much abroad . colledge . call mr. everard . l. c. j. what do you ask him ? colledge . as for mr. everard i need not ask him whether he knows him , for they know one another well enough : but mr. everard that i would ask you is this , what do you know of mr. smith , and of this contrivance against me ? mr. everard . mr. smith i have been to see of late , and he told me he knew of no presbyterian or protestant plot , and when my lord howard was tried , that is , the bill brought against him , he said , he wondred how my lord howard could be guilty , and that both himself and i were joyned as evidence to that jury , only to put a gloss upon the evidence , for says he , i have nothing material to say . colledge . mr. everard , do you know any thing more concerning him , what he hath said at other times concerning me ? mr. everard . i have told you already , what i have heard him say , that he thought there was no protestant or presbyterian plot , and that now of late within this little while . coll. pray sir was there not some discourse betwixt just . warcup and you in lincolns-inn walks . mr. everard . is justice warcup an evidence here ? l. c. j. no , no. colledge . 't is all but evidence of a presbyterian plot , therefore pray sir , what was the discourse between justice warcup and you ? what would he have had you done ? l. c. j. i think it is not material , there is nothing of mr. warcup in this tryal . mr. everard . if the court does allow of it , i will freely tell it . coll. my lord , the papists design is to make a protestant plot to turn off their own , and they begin with me , but if i should go they would not be satisfied with me , they would be at others . l. c. j. there is nothing concerning a presbyterian or protestant plot in the case . colledge . my lord , if there be no presbyterian protestant plot , and others to joyn in it , how could i do it by my self , 't is impossible i should have such a design of seizing the king , and improbable i should speak it . now my lord , this man was solicited to come in for an evidence of such a plot. mr. everard . that is true . l. c. j. i tell you it is not material , mr. warcup is not concerned in your trial. mr. everard . justice warcup would have perswaded me to have sworn against some lords a presbyterian plot , but i deny that i know any such thing of them . colledge . the papists aim is not at me only , but at others . mr. s. jeff. we have nothing to do with what you and justice warcup talked of ; for example sake my lord , let us have no discourses that concern third persons brought in here . l. c. j. would he have perswaded you to say any thing that was not true ? mr. ever . he did not say positively those words , but this he said , i knew several lords — mr. just . jones . now here is mr. justice warcup's same traduc'd behind his book in the face of the countrey , and it is nothing to this cause before us . coll. my lord , i desire to know what he knows of these things , and that he may speak it out , 't is a material thing for me and others : here is a design of the papists to turn a plot upon the protestants , they begin with me , and if they have my bloud who may feel the effects of it next i cannot tell . l. c. j. truly i think it not material to your case , and indeed 't is of ill consequence to have any man traduced behind his back , as mr. warcup is . colledge . my lord , macnamarra told me , that that man would have seduced him to have retracted his evidence ; upon my salvation 't is true . l. c. j. we meddle not with macnamarra neither , he is no evidence against you . coll. macnamarra hath sworn against me at the old-baily , and at the finding of this bill , but they have laid him by upon some trick or other , i desire mr. everard may tell what he knows . mr. ev. i would not reflect upon any person , nor will i answer it , if the court do not think fit . coll. my lord , this is foul play , if i die my self for my countreys sake , i can do it freely , and the will of god be done , i would have the truth out for the sake of the protestants . mr. everard . i am very willing to tell the truth if the court think fit . l. c. j. i see not that he says mr. warcup would have had him swear that which was not true . mr. ev. but this he said , if the court will allow me to speak it , just . warcup said , that certainly there was a presbyterian plot , and such things ; and that some lords , some of the protestant protesting lords must be guilty of it , and said he , certainly you know much of it , you know such and such things , therefore you may safely swear it , if i knew it , so by argument he would first prove there was a plot and combination amongst those lords , and then said he this you may safely swear . mr. j. j. what is this to your purpose mr. colledge ? only warcup's name is brought upon the stage when he is not here to vindicate himself . l. c. j. would you ask him any thing else ? coll. if he does know any thing more of any of them , i desire he would speak it . m. ev. concerning mr. haynes , he told me it was necessity that drove him to speak any thing against the protestants and the hard p. and the gratitude he did receive from the citizens . l. c. j. where did he tell you this ? then mr. jones acquainted the court that mr. warcup was just come in , and desired to vindicate himself . but the kings other councel waved it , saying there was no weight in it . mr. everard . in the fields neer grays-inne . l. j. c. how long since ? mr. everard . about three weeks ago . i asked him , mr. haynes , said i , i would not draw you from your testimony in any thing ; but how can this be congruous to what you have said formerly , that you knew nothing by them ? the truth is , said he , i will not say much to excuse my self , but my wife was reduced to that necessity , that she begg'd at rouse's door , and craved some salary , and mr. rouse would not give her any ; and , said he , meer necessity drove me to it . colledge . he found better pay in another place . mr. everard . and , says he , 't is self-preservation in the next place : for i was brought in guilty when i was taken up , and therefore i was obliged to do some things to save my life . colledge . pray , my lord , and gentlemen , observe what this gentleman says , haynes takes this course to destroy innocent persons for his own preservation . mr. everard . besides , he told me there is a judgment impending upon the nation , said he , either upon the king , or upon the people , i know not which ; but these irish mens swearing against them , is justly fallen upon them for their injustice against the irish in outing them of their estates . colledge . so he did it then by way of revenge . for his country-men , i have nothing of their estates , i am sure ; therefore they had no cause to swear against me . but , mr. everard , have you any more to say concerning any of them ? mr. everard . no more concerning those persons that have sworn against you , i can say no more . colledge . as to dugdale or turbervile ? mr. everard . no indeed . colledge . as to this presbyterian plot , sir ? mr. everard . if the court does allow concerning other persons ; but i would not intrude any thing but what the court shall think fit . colledge . i know not but they may come in against me ; therefore pray tell what you know . mr. everard , do you know any thing more ? pray let me know what you know . mr. everard . nothing of any person that hath appeared against you as yet , but what i have told you . colledge . they may do , sir. l. c. j. and then we may properly hear him to them , and not before . colledge . i desire to know who they are ; pray let me know their names . mr. everard . fitzgerald . l. c. j. he hath been no witness here . colledge . call thomas parkhurst . l. c. j. what do you ask him now he is here ? colledge . what do you know concerning mr. dugdale ? mr. parkhurst . sir , the latter end of the last november , when the parliament sat at westminster , several times mr. dugdale having promised me his further narrative to publish which he printed , i met him several times ; one time i met him at richard's coffee-house , and it was towards the evening before we went away ; he told me and mr. symonds , that he was to speak with dr. tongue ; and he told us , that this dr. tongue did lie at mr. colledge's ; and he having spoken the day before , and several times , of the danger he was in of his being assassinated by the papists , mr. symonds and i offered to go with him , and we took a coach ; for we did not know where mr. colledge lived : he had then a rheum in his eyes , and was not well ; so we accompanied him to mr. colledge's to speak with dr. tongue . it was the evening when we went ; and whilst we took a pipe of tobacco , in our discourse we were speaking of the times , and of the danger of the papists ; so colledge took down a steel hat that hung up there , which he said he had , and he said he had a quilted coat of defensive armor , and he said he had a blunderburss in his house , and two pistols . but i little thought of any thing of this , neither did i know well what i was subpoena'd down for : but these arms i saw in his house , and it was onely in discourse that he was provided against the papists ; so i put the steel hat upon my head and pulled it off again , and so did mr. symonds . colledge . did i say any thing , sir , who i had those arms against ? mr. parkhurst . at that time there was no discourse in the world , but of the danger from the papists ; and he said he was provided for them , if they did come to make any disturbance . l. c. j. when was it , sir ? mr. parkhurst . it was about the latter end of november . i have the narrative that i printed , which was the th or th ; and i have no directions but that to remember the exact time . so we carried mr. dugdale home again in a coach , and gave him a pint of wine at his lodgings . l. c. j. this does not contradict mr. dugdale at all . mr. parkhurst . mr dugdale does own this for a truth . mr. serj. jefferies . so may any body own it . colledge . where is mr. symonds ? pray , sir , what do you know of mr. dugdale ? mr. symonds . what about , sir ? colledge . i have your name here , sir , but i know not for what . mr. symonds . i can say the same that mr. parkhurst did ; that i suppose is the business . all i know of it is this : i was with mr. parkhurst and mr. dugdale at richard's coffee-house some time in november , i think it was about the printing of mr. dugdale's further information ; and mr. dugdale was saying , dr. tongue had sent for him , but spoke as if he was fearful of some danger in going alone ; so we proffered to go along with him , and we took a coach at the coffee-house-door , and went with him to dr. tongue , who lodged at mr. colledges . when we came into the room , mr. parkhurst and i thought fit we should in civility withdraw , which we did ; and mr. colledge brought us down into another room , where we sat and took a pipe of tobacco , and talking about the common discourse of the times , about the papists and the danger from them , there hung up in mr. colledge's room some arms ; what they were , i dare not charge my memory with to swear particularly , but i do think there was a silk coat of mail , and there was a cap of steel , and as i take it , it was covered with cloath or some such thing ; what else i can't well say : i think there was a blunderbuss and a case of pistols : and all the discourse that i remember then , was onely this ; speaking of the papists , and some fears as if there would be an insurrection amongst them , said he , let the papist rogues begin when they will , i am ready to defend my self for one . this is all i know . colledge . pray , sir , how long ago was this ? dr. tongue died before christmas at my house . mr. symonds . i cannot tell exactly when it was ; but during the session of parliament i am sure it was , and as i take it ▪ in november the latter end . colledge . so then , pray , my lord , see that these arms they charge me withal , were provided before christmas . l. c. j. but there is nothing that contradicts dugdale's testimony in all this . colledge . it does sufficiently contradict him . l. c. j. i do not see that this does at all contradict what he hath said ; but do you observe what you will upon it , when you come to make your defence . stranger . a gentleman below desires you to call mr. yates . colledge . pray , sir , what do you know concerning dugdale ? mr. yates . i know that mr. dugdale sent for me to a coffee-house to bespeak a pistol for you , and told me that when i had made the pistol , i should deliver it to mr. colledge , and mr. dugdale promised to pay for it when i had done it . now some time after i did some small matter for mr. dugdale , cleaned his pistols , or some small business ; and mr. dugdale asked me if i would drink a pint of wine , which i agreed to ; and being at the tavern , mr. dugdale asked me if mr. colledges pistol were done . i told him no , it was not as yet . so i asked mr. dugdale , because he had promised to give mr. colledge a pistol , what obligation there was betwixt colledge and him , that he should give him a pistol ? to which he answered , that mr. colledge had been serviceable to him in lending him a pair of pistols to ride withal sometimes . so he gave him a pistol to satisfie him for the wearing of his pistols now and then . i thought , said i , mr. colledge did impose upon your good nature too much , not but that i believe mr. colledge is a very honest man , and stands up for the good of the king and the government . yes , said mr. dugdale , i believe he does , and i know nothing to the contrary . mr. att. gen. when was this ? mr. yates . a little after the parliament sat at oxford ; for i never knew mr. colledge before mr. dugdale set me a work for him . colledge . mr. yates , pray was there nothing in the coffee-house about one that he asked to go with him , when he said he knew nothing against me ? mr. yates . i heard one say mr. serj. jefferies . you must speak your own knowledge , you must not tell a tale of a tub of what you heard one say . mr. yates . i heard it affirmed — mr. serj. jefferies . but by whom ? mr. yates . by a person in the coffee-house . mr. serj. jefferies . who was that person ? mr. yates . by one of the servants of the house . l. c. j. that is no evidence at all : if you know any thing of your own knowledge , speak it . mr. serj. jefferies . is he here ? mr. yates . no , i think not . mr. just . jones . how long do you think must we sit here to hear other peoples stories ? l. c. j. if you know any thing of your own knowledge , i say , speak it . mr. att. gen. pray let me ask you that question again , when was this that he said he believed he was an honest man ? mr. yates . it was about three weeks after the parliament sat at oxford . colledge . then he does me wrong now : for if i were an honest man then , it cannot be true that he says of me . l. c. j. who do you call next ? colledge . pray , my lord , who hath been sworn against me ? l. c. j. there is stephen dugdale , john smith , bryan haynes , edward turbervile , sir william jennings , and mr. masters . colledge . call mr. clayton . my lord , at his house it was i lay in oxford , and that dugdale says i spake some of the treasonable words : pray , sir , do you know what time i came to oxford ? mr. clayton . i remember it very well , it was at the time the parliament sat at oxford , about two or three days after it began . colledge . pray what arms did i bring to your house , sir ? mr. clayton . as to the matter of arms , there was no other , but a sword and a pair of pistols , a pair of pistols in his holsters , and his sword by his side . mr. att. gen. was there no silk armor ? mr. clayton . i saw none , if it please you , such a thing might be . colledge . my lord , i continued at his house from my coming in to my going out and that was till after the parliament was dissolved ; and i came after they were sat : but heark you mr. clayton , mr. dugdale says he was with me at your house , did you ever see him there ? mr. clayton . i remember i have seen dugdale at my house , but never in your company . colledge . did you sell any mum ? mr. clayton . no , i never did sell any in my life . colledge . because he says we had mum there . mr. clayton . i never saw him there with you , nor changed any word with him , as i know of . l. c. j. was he never in the company of colledge at your house ? mr. clayton . not that i saw . mr. j. jones . you don't know all the companies that come into your house . colledge . my lord , i am told there are some that came from the town where i was born that know me , and have known me for twenty four or twenty five years together , if you think that material for me to prove whether i am a protestant or no. l. c. j. if you will make out that , you may . but 't is your loyalty that is in question . if you will produce any that can make it appear ; that you use to honour the king in your discourse , or so , that is something . colledge . if i am a protestant , then the design is plain , these men swear to make a protestant plot , and turn the plot off the papists . mr. serj. jefferies . what church do you frequent in london to hear divine service ? colledge . i have received the sacrament several times , sir george . mr. serj. jefferies . when were you last at the publick church ? colledge . i hope i may be a protestant if i have not gone thither ; but however , i do use to go to church . l. c. j. well , call whom you will. colledge . is thomas deacon there ? mr. deacon . yes . colledge . he lives my lord in the parish where i was born . if you please mr. deacon to give my lord an account what you know of me from my childhood . mr. deacon . i have known mr. colledge ever since he was a youth , he was born in the town where i live . l. c. j. where is that ? mr. deacon . at watford , a town in hertfordshire . there he lived till he was a man , and married a neighbours daughter of mine , and lived there while he had two children ; i never knew but that he was a very honest man , frequented and kept to the church of england all along , and paid every man his own . mr. att. gen. how long is it ago since he left that place ? mr. deacon . i can't directly tell how long it is truely , but i think 't is eighteen years since you left watford . colledge . 't is fourteen years ago . mr. just . jones . you say fourteen , and they say eighteen . mr. deacon . i say , i can't exactly tell . colledge . but mr. deacon , i have been in your country lately . mr. deacon . he used to come there once or twice a year generally to see his friends . i have heard him declare himself against the popish church always very much . l. c. j. did you never hear him talk against the government ? mr. deacon . no , never in my life . mr. serj. jefferies . nor against the king ? mr. deacon . nor against the king. mr. just . jones . was he in your country the last easter ? mr. deacon . i think it was about easter he was there . mr. just . jones . was he at church there then , and received the sacrament ? mr. deacon . i know not whether he was there of the lords-day or no : he did quarter at another town , at bushy , where he has a brother-in-law . l. c. j. well , call another . colledge . mr. whitaker . l. c. j. what is your christian name ? mr. whitaker . william . l. c. j. what do you ask of him ? colledge . whether he knows me and my education ? mr. whitaker . sir , i have known him this six and twenty years . i knew his parents , i know his mother , she lives now at watford . i have known his behaviour to be very civil and good ; a very good church-man he was when he lived with us ; and i have inquired , and find he has the same reputation in the parish where he last lived in black-fryers : he was no jesuit nor papist , i dare aver ; he hath flouted them and mocked them with their wooden gods , and the like ; for he never could endure that perswasion . l. c. j. he is not questioned for that , but for treason . colledge . did you ever hear me speak any thing against the government ? mr. whitaker . i never knew of any ill behaviour of him in my life . colledge . but did you ever hear me say any thing against his majesty or the government ? mr. whitaker . never that i know of . i knew him a souldier for his majesty , in which service he got a fit of sickness , which had like to have cost him his life ; he lay many months ill , to his great charge . mr. serj. jefferies . where was it he was in his majesties service ? mr. whitaker . at chatham-business . colledge . it was under my lord rochester . but , my lord , i have a testimonial under the hands of seventy people of watford , to give an account of my good behaviour . mr. j. jones . he hath been gone thence these eighteen years . mr. whitaker . he hath come there almost every half year , sometimes three or four times in a year , because his mother lives there now , and he came to pay his respects to her . his children lived and went to school with us . l. c. j. come , who do you call else ? colledge . mr. neale . mr. neale . i can say no more than the other men before me . i know the man , he was bred and born at watford , he lived there several years , he married a wife out of the neighbourhood , frequented the publick worship . l. c. j. how long ago is this ? mr. neale . sixteen or seventeen years ago . but then he used to come once or twice a year into the countrey . colledge . did you ever hear me speak any thing against the king or the government ? mr. neale . no , never in my life . colledge . how long is it ago since you were in my company last ? mr. neale . when you were in town last , i never heard you say any thing that was ill . colledge . how long ago is it since we were at the white hart together ? mr. neale . it was about spring . colledge . i said right , my lord , i was there about easter . pray did you ever hear me speak for the king ? mr. neale . truly the discourse we had i never used to keep in my mind , but i never heard him speak any thing against the king or the government . l. c. j. were you much conversant with him ? mr. neale . when he came down to give his mother a visit , and see his neighbours , we used always to see one another . colledge . pray will you call mr. tanner and mr. remington . [ mr. remington stood up . ] mr. remington . i say i have known stephen colledge these forty years , and i have known that he always was an honest man. he was a souldier some time , but he always went to church , was no conventicler ; and used to visit his neighbours when he came down to see his mother , and was always looked upon to be a very good man. mr. serj. jefferies . you say you knew him a souldier , pray when was that ? mr. remington . about the time of harwich business . that is all i can say . [ then mr. tanner stood up . ] l. c. j. come , what say you ? what do you ask him , mr. colledge ? mr. tanner . i have known stephen colledge from a child forty years , he was born at watford , his father worked with my father , and great intimate acquaintance we had with him , and saw him very often ; i never knew any fault in him , and i never heard a bad report of him in all the town of watford . mr. serj. jefferies . have you seen him at church lately ? mr. tanner . no , i have not . mr. att. gen. i would fain know whether this man hath been at church himself ; he looks as if he had not . colledge . i know not whether he hath been at the church you mean or no ; but he may be an honest man and a protestant for all that . l. c. j. call another . colledge . mr. peter norreys . l. c. j. what do you ask him , mr. colledge ? here he is . colledge . do you know any thing concerning mr. smith ? mr. norreys . i was once in the hercules pillars where was sir william waller , macnamarra , mr. joy , and five or six of us together ; and mr. smith was there , and we were talking concerning the parliament approaching at oxon. m. serj. jefferies . tell the names of the rest . mr. norreys . sir william waller , macnamarra , mr. ivy , mr. lewes , macnamarra's brother , and i , and mr. smith . mr. serj. jefferies . well said ; we don't meddle with any of these , but mr. smith . l. c. j. was john smith there ? mr. norreys . he was there . l. c. j. well , go on then . mr. norreys . we were talking of the parliament at oxon. says sir william waller , most of the parliament-men are afraid to go up to the parliament . truly , said smith , i hope they will be provided to go , if they do go . says sir william waller , i shall be provided with the rest of my friends ; and mr. colledge said , i will go up with the rest of the parliament-men ; i shall be provided too , says most of the evidence ; says sir william walter , will you go along with me , and i will provide you with an horse ; said he , i have an horse of my own , and if it please god i will have nothing else to do but to go with the parliament , and i will not neglect it . this was all the discourse of the company for that night . colledge . did you hear mr. smith say any thing against me ? mr. norreys . no , not a word at all . colledge . but this were a material evidence against others of the confederates , if they had been examined . mr. norreys . my lord , i was at the amsterdam coffee-house the twenty third of june last , and there was mr. denis macnamarra ; said he , will you go , and i will give you a pot of ale l. c. j. there is nothing of denis macnamarra in question before us . if you have any thing to say against any of the witnesses that have been sworn , go on with your evidence , we must not hear stories of other people . colledge . he would speak against some men that have sworn against me , but are left out for some reasons i know not . pray call mr. thomas norreys . l. c. j. what do you ask him ? colledge . my lord , he knew me in this country some fifteen or sixteen years ago . mr. t. norreys . my lord , i have been acquainted with mr. colledge about sixteen or eighteen years , and he hath always carried himself very civilly and well , and he kept to the church for a considerable time as duely as any parishioner did . l. c. j. how long have you known him ? mr. t. norreys . this sixteen year . l. c. j. you live in this country , don't you ? mr. t. norreys . yes , at aylworth . colledge . i was at astrop-wells last year . i believe mr. justice levins saw me there . mr. t. norreys . yes , i was there with you . colledge . we did discourse commonly then concerning the papists . pray , sir , did you find me inclined to the popish interest ? mr. t. norreys . you spoke very much against them . colledge . did you ever hear me speak against the king or the government ? mr. t. norreys . no , i never heard it ; for if he were my brother , i should have discovered it . l. c. j. how often have you seen him ? mr. t. norreys . very often , and conversed much with him . colledge . my lord , as to the papers charged upon me that they were mine , i declare i know not of them . dugdale says i owned them , and the letter and several prints ▪ but truly , my lord , i had done my self a great injury if i had done or owned those things he hath charged me withal . i never could make a picture , nor never did draw a picture in my life ; and that very person that he says i owned i got it to be printed by , hath denyed it before the king and council ; for he there testified , that he did not know the person that caused it to be printed . l. c. j. how came you to have so many seized in your house ? colledge . my lord , here is elizabeth hunt , the maid by whom they were taken in , and who can give you an account of it . i cannot deny but that they were in my house ; but that i was the author , or did take them in , is as great a mistake as ever was made . call elizabeth hunt. i do not know whether curtis be in town ; but this i am confident , he was examined before the king and council , and he and his wife denyed it . l. c. j. he shall be called if he be here . colledge . i know nothing of the printing of them , nor was i the author of them . l. c. j. they were dispersed by you up and down . colledge . that they were in my house , i believe , my lord ; and this woman will tell you how , my lord. pray tell the court how these papers that are called the raree-shew came to be in my house . el. hunt. a porter brought three bundles to our house , and asked whether my master was not within . i told him , no , he was not . said he , these papers are to be left here ; said i , who do they come from ? said he , 't is all one for that , you must pay me , and i must leave them here ; so i gave him six pence , and he left the papers , but i never saw the man since nor before . and , my lord , i never read them what they were , but i saw they were such sort of prints as those . l. c. j. how long was it before they were seized ? el. hunt. a matter of seven or eight weeks . colledge . my lord , it seems they were put in a box , and left in my counting house : i never touched them , but there they staid , for ought i know , till they were taken . l. c. j. you were colledges servant , were you not ? el. hunt. yes , my lord. colledge . my lord , i neither knew the printer nor the author ; but i heard a man was in trouble about them , upon a by-law in the stationers company . mr. att. gen. how came you by that original ? colledge . have you it there ? i know of none was produced . but if i were a person concerned , it were no treason ; and , my lord , i hope you will do me that justice , to let the jury know they are not treason , none of these papers . and i do declare i know nothing of the original , the printer , nor the author . l. c. j. you spend time in making observations out of order of time : when you have given your evidence , then make your observations . colledge . i confess i may erre as to matter of order , for i was never in this capacity before . but pray do you tell the court how the papers came there , and all the transactions . for i was a prisoner when they came and searched . l. c. j. no , it was eight weeks before you were taken they were left there . mr. serj. jefferies . did you tell your master soon after they were left there ? el. hunt. no. mr. serj. jefferies . within what time did you tell him ? el. hunt. i believe it was a week or a fortnight . mr. att. gen. where was your master all that time ? el. hunt. he was in the countrey . colledge . my lord , i did see them there , i must confess , i do not deny but i saw them there , but i knew not whence they came , nor whose they were . nor did i ever intend to meddle with them , nor concern my self about them . what have you to say more ? el. hunt. concerning mr. dugdgale , if i may speak . l. c. j. ay , go on . el. hunt. i went to receive the money of mr. dugdale that he owed my master , and asking him for it , he said , he would pay me such a time to morrow morning , if i would come for it ; but when i came , he had not the money ready for me . sir , said i , i think 't is very hard that you should keep my masters money from him , and yet you go and swear against his life too : what do you think we shall do at home in the family , if you keep my masters money and he be in prison ? said he , there is a great deal of do about my swearing against your master , more than needs ; but as i hope for salvation , i do not believe mr. colledge had any more hand in any conspiracy against his majesty , than the child unborn . here is dugdale , let him deny it if he can . mr. dugdale . as i hope for salvation i did not say so . el. hunt. upon my salvation 't is true what i say . stephens . this was the maid that hid her masters papers when they were searched for . mr. serj. jefferies , be quiet ; art thou got into dialogues with the maid now ? colledge . mr. stevens , 't is well known what a man you are to propagate witnesses . my lord , she gave me an account of this in the tower , before i came away , that dugdale desired to speak with mr. smith , and told her , that nothing that he had to say would touch my life . el. hunt. as i am alive 't is true . l. c. j. mr. dugdale denies it now . el. hunt. he is not a right man if he denies it , for he told it me twice . colledge . i told mr. smith of it , when he had leave to come to me : i told him what the maid said he had said to her , and this was three weeks ago ; said he , i will speak with him with all my heart , if he has a mind to speak with me ; for he hath said that he hath nothing against her master that can touch an hair of his head , nor nothing that can touch his life , that he knew nothing of a plot or contrivance against the king ; and if i could help it , i had as lieve have given a hundred pound i had never spoken what i have . this he said to her . l. c. j. you tell her what to say . el. hunt. sir , he does not tell me ; for mr. dugdale said those very things to me . colledge . this is an account i had when i was a prisoner ; i could not direct her . l. c. j. do you deny what they say to be true , mr. dugdale ? mr. dugdale . my lord , she came to me for money ; i told her i had it not ready , but would pay her : and in the shop , before the apprentice-boy , she desired of me that i would write two or three words what i had to say against her master ; and i told mr. graham of it . so , said i , i cannot tell , i have not the papers , nor what informations i have given against him . so she came again the next morning , and she was at me to write down what i said . i wonder , said i , your master will send you ! had not he as good send mr. smith , who is his counsel ? and this was all the words we had . el. hunt. my lord , i do solemnly assure you , he said he would write down what he had said against my master , and would fain speak with mr. smith ; for there was more ado made about it than needs . mr. dugdale . mr. graham can tell what it was ; for i came and told him immediately . l. c. j. did you tell her you had nothing to say against her master that would touch his life ? mr. dugdale . i could not say that i had said nothing against her master ; for she asked me that i would write down what i had said ; but i told her i knew not what was treason , that must be referred to the court. mr. just . jones . did he speak it openly or privately to you ? el. hunt. he did not speak it aloud ; no body heard him but my self . mr. dugdale . it was in the shop , and the apprentice-boy was by . mr. just . levins . was this after he had been at the old-bayly , or before ? el. hunt. yes , it was after he had been at the old-bayly , and after he had been at oxon too . mr. just . levins . then it was before the court what could be made of it . colledge . she hath gone forty times for the money i lent him out of my pocket ; and i lent him that , when i had little more my self . el. hunt. i did tell him , mr. dugdale , if you can't let me have my masters money , if you please to tell me what you have made oath against my master . said he , i can't let thee have it now ; but thou shalt have what i have to say against him : i will draw it up in writing ▪ and thou shalt have it to morrow-morning . the next morning i came to him again , and said i , i am come again ; what must i do ? said he , i have no money ; such an one hath not hoped me to it . sir , then , said i , i hope you will be as good as your word , to let me know what you have made oath against my master . said he , i was about it yesterday , but could not do it : but , sweetheart , said he , ( and took me by the hand ) i will give you a copy of it to day at ten of the clock ; and if i do not , i will tell it thee by word of mouth . so i came to the house at ten , and staid till eleven , but did not see him . mr. just . jones . you had a great mind to be tampering . el. hunt. the first time , he asked me who was his counsel ; i told him , mr. smith ; then said he , i have a great desire to speak with him : so i told my master of it . colledge . my lord , you see it is but black and white , all this whole contrivance upon me . she hath proved i knew nothing of these papers ; and indeed i did not . l. c. j. do you call any more witnesses ? colledge . there is my brother-in-law that received those papers . call george spur and sarah godwin . [ mrs. godwin appeared . ] colledge . do you know any thing of the papers that were carried to my brother george spurrs ? mrs. goodwin . yes , i do . the saturday after my brothers confinement , about eight of the clock in the morning ▪ i having heard of it , came into the house , and in a quarter of an hours time , in comes a waterman and desires an handful or two of shavings . i knowing not who he was , nor what he desired them for , told him , he should have them ; so he went up to the working shop to gather them , for he pretended that to be his business . l.c.j. whose waterman was it ? mrs. goodwin . a waterman i suppose that belonged to his majesty , for he had a coat marked with r. c. colledge . this is after i was in custody . mrs. goodwin . yes , it was the saturday after . so no sooner had he the shavings , but he goes out of the shop , and comes in again with three of his majesties messengers , and they made enquiry after papers , and i being innocent of concealing any papers , or any thing said i knew of none ; so they came to one box that had the tooles for the men to work with , and they demanded the keys . i told him , i knew not where the keys were . so they went to the next and found it open , but nothing did they find there ; there was a bed wherein formerly my brothers servants did lye . said one to the other , look well whether there be not something hid in that bed ; said i , i suppose there is no such thing as you inquire for : if you please , you may take off the cloths , and gave them free toleration to look ; but for the chest , i would not deliver the keys , because the man was not there that owned it . in their searching , they flung down the wainscote , and did a great deal of damage to his goods . gentlemen , said i , i suppose you have order to search , but none to spoil a mans goods . when they were gone , having found none , they threatned god dam them they would have them , for there they were . but i being ignorant of the concealment of the papers , i requested the maid and my brothers son , whether they knew of any papers , and they satisfied me they knew of some prints that were brought by a porter , to be left at my brothers , but they knew not whence they came , nor what they were : and the same answer gave my brothers son , that he did not know whose the papers were . but since his fathers confinement , they were laid up sure and safe , for they knew not what they concerned . upon this , my lord , my brother-in-law george spur , he comes into the house , and if it please your honour , i requested him to carry them into the countrey to his house , to secure them till we knew what they did concern , and who they did belong to . whereupon he replyed , my lord , that he was fearful to carry any thing out of the house ; said i , if you will please to take them of me , i will carry them out of the house for your security , because his wife looked every hour ( being with child ) when she should be delivered , and he was fearful of troubling her . so i carried them out of the house , and delivered them to him . l.c.j. to whom ? mrs. goodwin . to my brother-in-law mr. george spur. so at my going out , after i had delivered them to him , in my way back again , i found a small paper-book , and a small parcel of writings ; who dropped them , or who laid them there , i cannot tell . but taking them up unadvisedly , i put them among the prints , which i carried out ; i delivered them to my brother-in-law . this is all i have to say as to the papers . stevens . three parts of what she hath said is false . mr. serj. jefferies . well , hold you your tongue . stevens . mr. atterbury is here , my lord , that searched the house . atterbury . be pleased to give me my oath , i will tell you what passed . mr. att. gen. we don't think it material , but you were sworn before , stand up . l.c.j. tell the manner of finding the papers . this woman gives us an account of a waterman that came in , pretending to fetch shavings atterbury . upon my oath it was not so . the waterman was a waterman that brought me and two more of my fellows , and the waterman followed us into the yard ▪ but came after us : and being ordered to look for papers , i did search the house ; for i had intelligence that there were papers there , but i did not find them there . but upon finding the first papers , i made the more diligent search , but could not find the rest i most chiefly sought after . mr. serj. jefferies . did the kings waterman take any shavings by himself ? atterbury . we were all together , we did not move out of any one room , but together ; this gentlewoman was in the house when i came , and there was a little child , a girl , and this maid was there . mr. serj. jefferies . did you come for shavings there pray mr. atterbury ? atterbury . no , i did not . mrs. goodwin . the waterman did though first . colledge . call george spur. ( but he did not appear . ) but mr. atterbury , before you go down , pray tell the court , did you take any of these papers at my house , or at my brother-in-law spurs house ? sewel . my lord , i took the papers , and i took them at bushy at spur's house . and this woman carried out one half to spur , and the maid carried out the other . l. c. j. when did he carry them ? mrs. goodwin . the same day they searched for them , for my brother came in at the same time . l. c. j. how do you know spur carried any away ? mrs. goodwin . he carried none out of the house , i carried them out of the house and delivered them to him . l. c. j. then they were in your house ? mrs. goodwin . they were in the counting-house . colledge . my lord , if they were in any other place , i know not how they came there , for this was all done after i was a prisoner ; and sewel says they were removed when i was a prisoner . where is george spur ? mr. serj. jefferies . it is admitted they were at your house , and taken thence , and afterwards carried to spurs . colledge . they carried them abroad and handed them from one to another , and took them into the countrey , i know not what they did with them ; but , my lord , i neither know the printer nor the author , i declare it upon my life . l. c. j. have you any more witnesses ? colledge . no , my lord , i have not . l. c. j. will you that are of counsel for the king call any more ? mr. att. gen. one or two if you please , my lord. call john shirland . and it is to this purpose , it seems very lately mr. bolron would have tempted him to have forsworn himself . colledge . my lord , i hope , if they bring in any persons of new evidence , i may have leave to contradict them . l. c. j. you need not fear , but you shall be heard to them . mr. att. gen. we shall prove bolron to be a suborner of witnesses ; and that the jury may know what he is , he and mowbray have gone to give evidence at several trials , and the jury would never believe them when they were on their oaths . mr. serj. jefferies . i think it needs not , time hath been spent enough already . colledge . no whispering , good my lord. sir g. jefferies . good mr. colledge , you are not to tell me my duty here . mr. just . jones . is it not lawful for the kings counsel to confer together ? colledge . not to whisper , my lord , all ought to be spoken out . l. c. j. nothing ought to be said to the jury indeed privately . mr. att. gen. but shall not we talk among ourselves ? colledge . no , i hope not of any thing that concerns my tryal . mr. just . jones . you are deceived in that . colledge . i think 't is law , that all ought to be publick , i beg your pardon if i am in the wrong . mr. att. gen. swear john shirland . ( which was done ) pray give the court and the jury an accompt of bolron , what you know of him . shirland . bolron , my lord , last whitson-tuesday , would have given me ten pound and an horse to go down and swear against sir miles stapleton . i was to swear i was suborned by his friends , and several other persons , which i have discovered upon my oath . l. c. j. is this man sworn ? mr. att. gen. yes . l. c. j. now call bolron to confront him . colledge . he offered you an horse , as much as i offered turbervil an horse , and i never offered him an horse in the world . [ then bolron appeared . ] l. c. j. is this the man , shirland ? mr. att. gen. did he give you ten pound to swear ? shirland . he bid me ten pound and an horse to swear against sir miles stapleton . mr. just . jones . did you ever see him , bolron ? mr. bolron . yes , my lord , he was to have been a witness against sir miles stapleton , and he pretended that he was suborned by sir miles , or some of his friends . colledge . what are you , sir ? mr. bolron , what is mr. shirland ? mr. bolron . he is a man that lives by his shifts : he hath been whip'd in bridewel . colledge . do you know him , sir ? what is he ? mr. bolron . even an idle man. shirland . you , once when you saw me , drew your sword on me , because i would not do as you would have me . mr. bolron . i profess , my lord , 't is not so . att. gen. here is mr. smith , hear what he says against mr. bolron . mr. smith . as we were coming up along , he was speaking to me of colledge , and told me , he had as much to say against him as any body ; and if i would speak for him , he would evidence against sir john brookes for a discourse at ferry-bridge . mr. bolron . i never did hear any such thing . mr. smith . no man in your own country will believe you . colledge . they believed you no more , it seems , neither . l. c. j. do you call any more witnesses , gentlemen ? mr. serj. jefferies . no , i think we need not . l. c. j. look you , mr. colledge , as i understand it , the kings counsel will produce no more witnesses . you may make what observations you will upon the evidence to the court , and then must them make what observations they will to the court ; and then we will give the charge to the jury . colledge . my lord , i have onely innocence to plead ; i have no flourishes to set off my defence . i cannot take the jury nor the court with an oratory ; i am unhappy in those things . but , my lord , i do declare , as to my own particular , in the presence of god almighty , that as to whatsoever is sworn against me , as to the seizing his majesty , providing arms , or having any designe either at oxford or london , or any other place in the world , to seize upon the person of the king , or to rebel against the government established ; i vow to god almighty , i never had such a thought in me : 't is a truth , my lord. my lord , they have sworn desperately against me , and it hath appeared , i think , by very credible persons , that they have contradicted one another . it hath been proved that this was a designe ; that they were tampered withal ; that they complained they were in poverty , that they wanted maintenance ; and they did confess they were tempted to come over to swear against protestants : and now the lord knows they have closed with it , and they begin with me . i hope the jury have taken notice that i have contradicted them sufficiently in what they have sworn ; and that it is not possible , if i had a grain of sence , for me to discover my self to be such an one to haynes that was an irish-man , and should speak all the treason that he hath galloped through at first sight , that as soon as ever i saw him , that i should speak so to him ; i hope you will consider whether it consists with common reason , when there could be no probability of making any use of him in the world . my lord , all my witnesses that i have brought , your lordship can , and i hope will sum them up better than i can ; for i declare it , i have been so concern'd , that i have not been able to write half of it down . but i think there is never a man that hath sworn against me , but hath been sufficiently confuted by persons of integrity and honesty , men of principles , and men of religion ; they are such , my lord , that make conscience of what they say : they are persons altogether unknown to me , most of them , as to what they had to say , it was what they offered voluntarily ; and i am certain they have had nothing but their bare charges , if they had that , for their pains in coming hither ; and , my lord , there is no probability that they should come and attest any thing that is false , for me who am a stranger , for nothing : no man is a knave for nothing , as i believe these men are not . my lord , i do declare it , i was bred a protestant , and have lived so ; i am so to this very day ; i have been a lover of the church of england , and of all the fundamental points of doctrine believed in it ; i own the same god , the same saviour , the same gospel , and the same faith ; i never had a prejudice against any man in the church in my life , but such as have made it their business to promote the interest of the papists , and such i must beg leave to say there are amongst them : for there is no society in the world , without some bad men ; and these do promote the interest of the papists , by dividing the protestants , and allowing none to be true protestants but those that are within the church of england established by law ; which is a notion so wide i could never close with that . i never had a prejudice against any man but a knave in my life . i have heard , i confess , some of the dissenters , and i have found very honest , just , pious , godly men among them ; men free from oaths and all debauchery ; men that make a conscience of what they say : not like some persons that say they are of the church of england , that carry themselves in their lives and actions , so as that no credit can be gained to the church by them . my lord , i have been an hearty man against the papists ; i have been an hearty man as any person of my condition , for parliaments , which i look upon to be my birth-right , and under god almighty , the bulwark of our liberty ; and i am sorry if any man should be an instrument to create a misunderstanding betwixt the king and the parliament : for i always thought i served my country , when i served the parliament , and i served my king when i served my country . i never made any difference between them , because i thought them both one . i had the honour to be entrusted by them before , and upon that account i came voluntarily down hither . i rid my own horse ▪ i spent my own money , and eat my own bread ; i was not beholding to any man for the value of six pence all the while i was here . my lord , i have ever since the plot hath been discovered , endeavoured with all my heart , and all my power , to detect and come at the very bottom of it : i have spared for no time nor pains , what lay fairly in my way , in every thing to encourage those that discovered the villanies of the popish plot against the life of the king , and for the subversion of the religion and government established by law. now certainly it is not strange to the world ; for i think all christendom is aware how plain the popish plot hath been proved . these men that swear against me , were they that used to follow me sometimes ; they would say , it was they that had come to save our lives and yet we let them want bread. that argument , my lord , was so fair , that i thought it unreasonable to see them starve : and i have said sometimes to some honest considerable men , that it was hard they should have this to say of us , that they should want bread to eat that were the kings evidence , to detect a popish plot wherein we our selves were concerned ; and that when they had saved our bloud in our veins , they should be suffered to starve . and one time , i think , some three or four gentlemen of the city did give me s. or s. and d. or thereabouts ; which i did distribute amongst them : and they never came to me in my life , but to seek relief , they knowing that i had a general acquaintance . and sometimes they thought it might be fit to petition the common council of the city of london to take care of them : sometimes they would speak to me to speak to particular men that care should be taken of them . at other times indeed it was not this sort of discourse they had with me ; but they would pretend they had something to discover of the popish plot , and so they would apply to me as a man of some acquaintance . and the first time i saw haynes , was upon such an account , the beginning of march last , and it was thus : i was at richard's coffee-house at temple-bar , where macknamarra did desire me to go out , and i should hear such a piece of roguery i never did hear in my life , against my lord shaftsbury . so i did go out with them , and i called captain brown , who is since dead , to go with me ; and we went to the hercules pillars , and haynes there discovered what i told your lordship before , a designe to destroy the parliament at oxford ; an army that was to land in the north , and another in ireland , and the duke of york was to be at the head of them . my lord , after i had heard all out , he did desire us all to conceal what he had said till the parliament sat , and then he would not onely discover this , but much more . he at the same time told us , that there was a designe of fitzgerald's against my lord shaftsbury to take away his life , and he was employed to come to his cozen macknamarra to get him over to joyn in the designe , and he should never want for money , if he would but come over and do as they would have him . after he had discovered himself , sir , said i , you are a stranger to me ; and i never saw him before in my days ; if he had seen me i can't tell : but , sir , said i , either this is true , or this is false . if it be true , said he , 't is all true , and much more . so he up and told us much of coleman , and of the reconciliation between the duke of ormond and the duke of york , and how he came to be lord lieutenant of ireland , and how plunket came to be primate , and by means of whom , and the letters that passed , and how so much a year was given to plunket for carrying on the correspondence ; and he told us so much , that i did wonder to hear any man talk after that rate . after i had heard what he had to say , i told him , sir , said i , this is either true or false that you have said : if it be true , my lord shaftsbury shall know it to night ; for i will not conceal such a thing concerning a peer of the realm : and if it were a colour , he should know of it . and i did send him word that night ; and , said i , sir , you ought to go , for your own security and ours too , to swear it before a magistrate . said he , if i should , i should be discovered . said i , i can't think you would be discovered ; if you swore it before sir george treby or sir robert clayton , they will not discover you . so he agreed he would swear before sir george treby ; and he did go accordingly : but he being out of town , i cannot have the affidavit to produce it . there was a letter sent last saturday-night to sir george to bristol , and i hoped he might have been here to day . this was the first acquaintance i ever had with haynes . the next time i heard of him , was upon this occasion . ivy comes to me in richard's coffee-house , and , said he , yonder is the man that made that discovery , which i told you before that haynes had said to me ; it was about a month or three weeks before the parliament was at oxford . after the parliament was dissolved at oxford , ivy comes to me , and i think it was betwixt the two terms wherein fitz-harris was arraigned and tried : i know not the names of them ; but he comes to me and tells me he had been with my lord shaftsbury , and that there was a friend of his that would confirm all that fitz-harris had discovered concerning the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey ; and , says he , my lord of shaftsbury hath sent me to you to acquaint you with it . where is your friend , said i ? he is without , said he . so we went out of the coffee-house ; and when we came out of doors , there was this haynes : we went to the crown-tavern without temple-bar ; it was in the forenoon . when we came there into the room , he examined all the corners , and cupboards , and places about the room , to see that no body was there . when he thought all was secure , he began to tell me he had been to acquaint my lord shaftsbury that there was a friend of his that would discover the whole intrigue of the murder of sir edmundbury godfrey , all that fitz-harris had said , and much more : and he desired me that i would intreat my lord shaftsbury to be instrumental to get him his pardon before he discover'd particularly . then i told him , i think 't is convenient , said i , that you discover something in writing , and give under your hand what you can say . he was not willing to do that . can you believe , said i , that my lord of shaftsbury will betray you ? says he , i will not trust any body ; i shall be assassinated . said i , if you will not give it to any body else , will you give it to mr. michael godfrey , sir godfrey's brother ? you can have no jealousie of him that he will ever discover you . said he , if my lord shaftsbury will engage to get me a pardon , i will tell the whole truth . said i , i will go to my lord and acquaint him : so i went to both my lord and mr. godfrey ; and sir godfrey's two brothers both met me at my lord of shaftsbury's house . this is the thing that he tells me ; he would have me get my lord's protection and a pardon for treason : but the real truth is , he sent me upon this errand . so i came to my lord shaftsbury , and the two mr. godfreys were in the room ; and after i had told my lord what discourse i had with him , says my lord , colledge , these irish-men have confounded all our business ; and thou and i must have a care they do not put a trick upon us : this may be a trick of the papists to ruine us ; and if they have such a designe , if they will not put it upon you and i , they are fools . upon your lordship , said i , they may ; but i am a poor inconsiderable fellow . says my lord , i 'll tell you , mr. godfrey , mr. colledge hath not onely been an honest man , but an useful and an active man for the protestant interest . so i told my lord how far i had gone with him , and that i desired it might be put in writing . says my lord shaftsbury , if he will put it in writing , i will go once again ; for i have been since i saw the fellow , with my lord macclesfield , and my lord chief justice pemberton , and my lord chancellor , and i have told them that there is such a person in general , but i knew not the man ; as indeed my lord did not , for onely ivy was the person between them that my lord knew : and i told them , says my lord , that he can confirm all that fitz-harris has said concerning the death of sir edmundbury godfrey , and that he would prove my lord of danby was in it , if he might have his pardon ; and my lord said , they promised to speak to his majesty that it might be granted . but some time the latter end of the week i heard it would not be granted ; and both of these men followed me to know what they should do . said i , my lord shaftsbury knows not but that it may be a trick ; and said i to ivy , i wonder why he should conceal it all this while , being a necessitous man , and l. proffered by the king in his proclamation . why , says ivy , do you think there is no truth in it ? says i , 't is not my judgment , but my lord shaftsbury and mr. godfrey's judgment too . he answered me again , fitz-harris hath desired he may have a pardon granted for himself and a frenchman ; and if so be there were nothing in it , do you think he would move for a pardon ? says i , did mr. fitz-harris move for haynes pardon ? how do i know that , says ivy again : fitz-harris's wife told me so . says i , let me speak with fitz-harris's wife , let me hear her say so , and i will believe you . the next day he did bring her to me to my house : and this was the time and the occasion that brought fitz-harris's wife , and haynes , and ivy , and mr. fitz-harris's maid to my house ; and i never saw fitz-harris in my days , till his trial , nor had any communication with him . but , my lord , she did talk with haynes , and confirmed it to me , that her husband had desired a pardon for him : why then , said i , he would do well to discover what he knows to my lord shaftsbury ; for i was with my lord , and he says he will meddle no more , unless he will give it under his hand what he has to say . and he did confess to me in my own yard , for there we were together , that he saw my lord of danby come into the chappel at sommerset-house , when the body of sir edmundbury godfrey lay under the altar . l. c. j. here hath been nothing of this made appear by proof . colledge . my lord , i onely tell you which way they introduced themselves into my acquaintance . l. c. j. you may observe what you will upon the evidence , as we told you ; but you ramble from the matter you are to speak to . and as we told mr. attorney , that what he said should go for nothing , unless he made it out by proof ; so must we say to you , what you say goes for nothing , further than you have proved it . now you have quitted the proof quite ▪ and not spoke to that , but run into other stories . i would have you keep your self to your proofs , and make your observations upon them . colledge . 't is , as i humbly conceive it , to my purpose , but i hope my ignorance may excuse me , if i erre . i tell you the truth of things , thus it was . l. c. j. truth ! why if yours or any man's word in your case should go for truth , no man that stands at a bar , could be convicted : for every man will say he is an honest man , and all the plausible things in the world . make you your observations upon the proof , that is proper for you to do ; and urge it as well as you can , and to the best purpose you can : but to tell us long stories of passages between you and others that are not a whit proved , that is not usual , nor pertinent . colledge . i thought it had been to the point , when this man pretends to have a familiarity with me , to shew how his acquaintance begun . mr. just . jones . why do you think 't is an answer to him in what he proves upon his oath ? have you proved one jot of it ? not that i have heard . 't is your part to sum up the evidence on your own side , and to answer that which is proved upon you , if you can . do that , and we will hear you speak to it as long as you can . but to tell stories to amuse the jury with that are not proved , and to run out into rambling discourses to no purpose , that is not to be allowed , nor never was , in any court of justice . mr. just . raymond . not one of your witnesses have mentioned any thing that you say . mr. just . levins . i wonder , mr. colledge , you should forget your self so much ▪ for you found fault with mr. attorney at the beginning for opening the evidence , and you were told , and the jury were told at your request , that what he said , and did not prove , passed for nothing . but i must tell you , 't is much worse in your case : for mr. attorney onely opened what he might prove afterwards , but your observations are upon what hath been proved already ; and yet you run out into stories of what hath not been proved at all , after your proof is past . colledge . sir , i could not prove this otherwise than by ivy , who hath been sworn against me . mr. just . jones . would you have the jury to believe you upon your word ? colledge . there is no more than his oath against me ; and why my oath , being an english-man and a protestant , should not be taken as well as his that is an irish-man and hath been a papist , i know not . l. c. j. you go upon that ground that your word is to be taken , as appears by your defence ; but i must tell you , all the course of justice were destroyed , and no justice against malefactors were to be had , if the word of him that is accused should pass for proof to acquit him . colledge . my lord , i have given your lordship an account of these fellows conversations ; and what other proofs to make , i know not : for i knew not what they would swear against me , and i had not witnesses in my pocket to confront them . mr. just levins . well , the jury have heard it over and over again , first upon your request , that nothing is to be taken notice of that is not proved . colledge . pray , my lord , then as to haynes . my lord , i do observe that there was a witness for me that did prove , he owned he was one that was employed to make a protestant plot , and another that did hear him swear , dam him , he would swear any thing against any body for money , for it was his trade . mr. just . levins . now you are right ; speak as much as you will as to your proofs . colledge . my lord , i think turbervile and dugdale swear as to the tenth of march in oxon ; i desire it may be proved i was in oxford the tenth of march. mr. just . jones . you yourself came down the middle of march. l.c.j. i do not remember that they said the tenth of march. colledge . did not the indictment say so ? mr. att. gen. it is only in the indictment . l.c.j. as to the time mentioned in the indictment , it is not material ; that is the constant rule in tryals upon indictments ; as if an horse be laid to be stole the tenth , if it be proved the prisoner stole it at another day , it will be sufficient , the time is not material ; the question is whether the indictment be true in substance . mr. colledge , my brothers will all tell you that the law is so . mr. just . levins . though it is laid the tenth of march , yet if it be proved the first or twentieth before or after , it is all one ; so the thing be proved , they are not bound to a day . colledge . my lord , the punctilio's of law i know not , but it was the twenty fourth or twenty fifth er'e i came down . l.c.j. well , go on , sir. colledge . dugdale says i meant by the word rowley , the king. mr. just . jones . he does so . colledge . how does he come to know , that by that word i meant the king ? l. c. j. that we did ask him , and he says you used so to expound it . mr. just . jones . why look you , he said you and he used to have frequent communication concerning the king , and you did most frequently speak of the king by the name of rowley . colledge . but i say , my lord , i never spake of the king by the name of rowley in my life . mr. just . jones . you say it , and he swears the contrary . colledge . i don't remember that he says i declared it so , but he said , i meant it ; for if i had declared it , then it had been the same thing for me to have named the king downright . mr. just . levins . look you mr. colledge , as to that , when any witness had done his evidence , you had liberty to cross examine him . l.c.j. would you have him called up again to clear this ? colledge . yes , if you please . l.c.j. stand up mr. dugdale . i understood by you testimony , when mr. colledge and you discoursed of the king , you sometimes discoursed of him by the name of rowley , and that he explained that name to be the king. mr. dugdale . the first time i ever heard what rowley meant , was from him ▪ for i asked him what he meant by the name of rowley ; i heard it before , but i did not understand it . mr. just . jones . where was it ? mr. dugdale . at richards coffee-house . mr. just . jones . what was the answer he made you ? mr. dugdale . he said it was the king. colledge . upon what occasion did i explain it to you ? mr. dugdale . upon the account of the pictures . colledge . i know not which of the pictures has the name of rowley in it . mr. dugdale . it was when we were talking of one of the pictures you brought in rowley , and mack and mac was the duke of york , and rowley was the king. colledge . upon what picture was it , that i took occasion to explain the name rowley to you ? mr. dugdale . i am not certain . colledge . remember you have an account to give as well as i. mr. dugdale . you have so many pictures that i can't remember them ; you have shewed me more than have been produced in court. colledge . where had you that picture from me that they call raree shew ? mr. dugdale . truly i received of them twice at richards coffee-house . colledge . twice , do you say ? mr. dugdale . yes , two of them at two several times ; for you having promised me one , you brought it according to your word . colledge . when was that ? mr. dugdale , i did not keep an account of the day of the month ; and another i do remember at the green dragon tavern you thrust into my pocket ▪ and mr. baldwin was by at that time . and said he , mr. colledge , you will be so open , that you will come to be discovered at last . colledge . then will i be willing to dye for it , if he and i and mr. baldwin were at the green dragon tavern together . when was it that i gave you any pictures there ? was it since the parliament at oxon ? mr. dugdale . do i charge you since the parliament ? colledge . i never saw raree shew before the parliament at oxford . mr. dugdale . i do not say it was that ; you gave me one of the others . colledge . 't is strange you will stick to nothing ; when was it we were at the green dragon tavern ? mr. dugdale . we were there before the parliament sat at oxon ; it was since christmass . colledge . what picture was it i gave you there ? mr. dugdale . it may be i can't remember which of them it was , it was not raree shew ; i suppose you gave me one of them concerning the bishops , where you put bishop mew kissing the popes toe ; for it was a bishop with a patch on , and that you told me was bishop mew . colledge . i put it , did i make it ? mr. dugdale . you said you were the author . mr. just . jones . mr. colledge , will you consider upon what mr. dugdale was called up about , the exposition of the name rowley ? colledge . i did examine him , and he hath contradicted himself ; for he hath said at the green dragon tavern i gave him a picture of raree shew . mr. just . jones . he said no such thing , he said he did not know which it was . colledge . i am certain he meant that then when he spake it ; for he named it before , that he had two from me at richards coffee-house , and one i thrust into his pocket at the tavern ; and i say , i never was at the green dragon tavern with mr. dugdale and mr. baldwyn , nor in the tavern these three quarters of a year . mr. just . levins . mr. colledge , you were in the right way just now to manage your evidence , in opposition to the other evidence ; go on in that way . colledge . my lord , i don't know well what was said , for i could not hear half , nor write a quarter of it ; but , my lord , i hope your lordship hath taken notes of it , and will remember it for me . you are my counsel as well as my judges . l.c.j. in matter of fact we are . colledge . my life and your souls lye at stake to do me justice ; therefore i hope you will take notice of what i have not had the opportunity to write down . i have observed that every one of my witnesses have spoken materially to contradict what they have said , to prove that this was done for money , and that there hath been confessions from every man of them ; that they were hired to do it ; that they did it for a livelyhood ; and one of them said , it was a good trade , dam him , he would do any thing for money : and i hope then you will consider the improbability , that i should speak to an irish man who i had never seen before in my life ; and that i should at the first dash utter all that treason that he gives in evidence , i think it cannot consist with any man's understanding to believe me so mad or so weak . mr. justice levinz . that is as to haynes only . colledge . as to smith now i suppose it does not come within the reach of the statute ; for the dinner that was made by alderman wilcox , was made before last july was twelve-month ; all the witnesses do say it was before christmas , and dr. oates says it was in the summer ; i know it by a very good observation , because i went to astrop waters after that , and i saw sir creswell levinz at the wells : now sir you were there before this time twelvemonth . so then whatever he says i said to him there , i cannot be charged withal by the statute , more or less , if i had never a witness against him ; but i have witnesses that have contradicted him sufficiently that he is forsworn in that ; and if so , he is not to be believed in any thing else ; for he says , he and i went to the coffee-house together , and we discoursed such and such things , which is not above half a bows shoot , and he made it i say a quarter of a miles discourse ; if i had had all the talk , the discourse could not be so long , tho' he had said never a word : so you see what a kind of witness he is . and dr. oates's brother did say , that i did go along with dr. oates , and offered to be one of his guard , and i did say so , and went along with them , but mr. smith he came after . and as to what he says he is sufficiently confuted , that is , about the going into cabals after dinner ; for it is proved , that i fell asleep behind the table , and dr. oates was discoursing with mr. savage upon points of divinity ; but i took no notice of it , neither did i see smith any more , but he went away , and so did the rest of the company . but , my lord , when haynes was taken , smith comes to me that day to my house at the ditch-side , and sends in a man for me , his man ; i was writing in my parlour , and drawing the design for wainscotting alhallows church , a platform for it ; his man told me , his master would speak with me , and haynes was taken that morning : but as i understand since , it was by agreement and his own consent , tho' he hath pretended otherwise . you hear , says he , haynes is taken ? yes , says i , i do , he hath been ever since a clock before the secretary upon examination , and he was till a clock at night examining , said he : i believe he confesses a great deal , said i : of what , said he ? of some design of the protestants , said i : what , against the government ? i do not know what they may affright him into ; he is a great rogue if it be true all that he hath said of himself : he says , he was concerned in the fire of london , and knew of a design to destroy the protestants then ; of a rebellion that was to be in ireland ; of plunket's being made primate , and a great many of those things : so that if he speaks truth , he hath been a great rogue , and as he hath pretended also , he was a great coward . so then i believe he may say any thing to excuse himself ; says mr. smith , i wish you are safe : this was the very night before i was taken . mr. just . jones . have you proved any thing of this ? colledge . my lord , pray give me leave to tell you what is proof . mr. just . jones . you are not to repeat this , unless you prove it , sir. colledge . he spake cautiously to me , as if he would have intimated to me , he would have had me run away . said he , i believe you are not safe , i would have you take care of your self , for you were concerned with him . now , my lord , if i had been a guilty person , i had time enough to get away ; and to prove this , i can only say , this was betwixt him and i. but , my lord , you hear dr. oates says , that this very smith did swear he would have my bloud , and that was upon this occasion of my vindicating sampson , whom he had struck and abused ; and i asked , why he did it ? said he , i value no man's life , if he affront me , if 't is any man in england , i value him not . my lord , upon this occasision the words rise between us ; and when he came out of doors , and was going away , dr. oates said , he swore he would have my bloud , and that was the occasion of his speaking that blasphemy . lord ch. just . dr. oates did say so . mr. just . levinz . well you are right now if you will go on in that way . colledge . my lord , this is for smith and haynes , that haynes should say it was a good trade , and dam him , he would swear any thing for money , and that smith should swear dam him he would have my blood . i cannot sum up the rest of them for i have not them here . mr. just . jones . there is turbervile , and dugdale , and smith ; we will help you as to the persons . mr. just . levinz . pray keep to the business , and do not run out . colledge . pray my lord , i have one thing to say about smith ; he sayes i shewd him my arms , which i have had for any time almost these years , ever since the plot brake out . i have been armed ready to oppose the papists , and i did my duty in the city in person in the trained bands , but smith says these arms were to destroy the kings guards , but he does not prove that i was confederate with any other person , but instead of that there were other persons that say with his own mouth , that he did not believe there was any protestant plot ; nay , he did believe i said it only in wantonness . this is all , then how probable was it , that i my self should seize the king , or destroy his guards . mr. just . jones . you remember captain brown , captain chuton , and don lewes , mr. colledge . colledge . did he swear they were all in my company at oxon ? mr. just . jones . yes , dugdale did . colledge . my lord , captain brown and lewes were friends to my lord howard , with whom and other company i came down to oxon , and they lay with me at the chequer , and they were in my company because they were guests in the house , and we came along together , but he does not say they were either of them armed more than my self , nor was he ever in company with us , how then does he know we were in a conspiracy ? mr. just . jones . because you told him at london first that they were such persons . colledge . i never saw lewes in may days till i saw him that morning i came down from oxon , and brown i was not acquainted with a fortnight before . this is a truth , but however they have sworn a plot upon me at oxon , and then come and prove i declared these were the men , and spoke such and such words at london ; i desire your lordships judgment in this matter of law , whether what be done at london can be sufficient matter of proof in law to maintain an indictment against me at oxon ? and if not ; they do not prove legally that i have spoken such words . besides i conceive 't is not a good proof , because there is but one witness . l. ch. justice . yes , look you , there are two witnesses , dugdale and turbervile , as to what you said at oxon , and two witnesses as to what you said at london , haynes and smith , who testifie what you said you would do at oxon. now in case you came to oxon with any such intention , that coming to oxford is an overt-act , and the witnesses that speak what you said in london , is evidence to maintain the indictment here , and to prove what your intention was . colledge . does that become an overt-act if i go to oxon upon an honest occasion , any other occasion , tho' i had said those words before . l. ch. justice . if you came with that intent to joyn with others , and with a real purpose to seize the king , that is the overt-act , and the words before prove the intention . mr. just . jones . he declared it himself by his words . colledge . smith says that about a week after wilcox's dinner , i disoursed with him at the ditch side , that comes not within the compass of the statutes . then there is twice of the times he speaks of , the last day i do not remember when it was . l. ch. justice . all was in london that smith speaks of you . colledge . how comes that to be proof here , then nothing he says is to go for any thing . mr. just . jones . nothing will serve your turn ; we have declared our opinions once already , that if the witnesses swear true , here are two witnesses ; nay , if one were of what was done at london , and the other of what was done at oxon , if they be to the same treason they are two witnesses in law. colledge . my lord , i observe one thing upon turbervile's evidence , he swears there was a discourse in the room when brown was upon the bed , but afterwards if your lordship minds it , he says , i discoursed with him as he and i lay upon the bed. before he said when brown lay upon the bed , and in the room , and afterwards when we lay upon the bed. mr. just . jones . both the one and the other . colledge . but he said said first one way , and then the other . mr. just . jones . whilst brown lay upon the bed , and when he was gone , whilst you both lay upon the bed. l. ch. justice . we will do you no wrong , therefore if you will , turbervile shall stand up and clear it . colledge . my lord , i believe those that have taken the passages can prove he contradicted himself in that . l. ch. just . he said both . but the jury have taken notes of the evidence , and will take notice of it . colledge . as to mr. masters , the evidence he gives was , he says that he and i should discourse of the parliament in . mr. just . jones . and the justifiableness of the late king's death , that they had done nothing but what they had just cause to do . colledge . he swears that i did say to him , that the late parliament did not cut off the kings head . mr. just . jones . and you said the last parliament that sate at westminster , was of the same opinion with that in . colledge . i dare appeal to esq charlton , in whose shop the discourse was . i did not know that mr. masters was to be an evidence against me , and truly they have taken that course with me , by which any man may be destroyed with half this evidence , were they of good credit , let his innocence be what it will. i have been used so barbarously in the tower , kept from all conversation , and so in an utter ignorance of what was sworn against me ; for else i could easily have disproved mr. masters , if i had been in london , and had liberty to provide for my defence ; but they have taken a course to prevent that , and brought me hither because 't is impossible i should here defend my self . l. ch. just . you have not offered at any witness to impeach mr. masters credit . colledge . mr. masters discourse he speaks of was in mr. charlton's shop , i durst have appealed to him about it , for i know if he were here he would do me right . mr. masters did say the parliament cut off the late kings head. we held a dispute upon that which i was not willing to enter into ; i said they did not , and we did then dispute whether they began the war against his majesty : i said they did not that i knew of , neither were they the persons , but the papists that began that war and that broke off the treaty at vxbridge , and that the papists carryed it on to that sad issue , and put it upon the protestants , that they had the odium of it , but it was another sort of men that carryed it on . i said that i did always understand that parliament to be an honest parliament , that minded the true interest of the nation , and much of the same opinion with the parliament that fate last at westminster . but before i said this , i said they were persons altogether innocent of the kings murder , and raising the war against the king , i did always understand that so the parliament in were . l. ch. just . but they were guilty of a rebellion , and are declared so by act of parliament since his majesty came in . colledge . my lord , i am unacquainted with the law , i speak only my sense of it . and my lord , i did excuse them as to the murder of the king , and the beginning of the war , that according to my understanding they were not guilty of it , and from thence i did maintain they were an honest good parliament , and much of opinion with the parliament that sat last at westminster , which was for the true interest of the nation . l. ch. just . and was that the true interest of the nation , to cut off the king's head ? colledge . i did argue that with him some time , and i did tell him that it was the papists that did all the mischief . mr. just . jones . but he sayes no , upon his oath , that when he had said , the parliament begun the rebellion , and the parliament did cut off the king's head , you said the parliament did nothing but what they had just cause for , and the parliament that sat last at westminster was of the same mind . l. ch. just . those were his words . colledge . pray let him be called again . l. ch. just . let mr. masters stand up again . colledge . pray sir relate the whole discourse that passed between you and i , whether i did not argue with you it was not the parliament cut off the kings head , nor begun 〈◊〉 war , but the papists . mr masters . no , you did not say any such thing . we had a great deal of discourse in the shop , and under the arch , and the thing that was said , mr. colledge , was this . you did say to me that you did justifie the late long parliament of , and their proceedings , and you said they were a parliament that did nothing but what they had just cause for : said i , how can you be so impudent to say so , when they raised the rebellion against the king , and cut off his head : said he again , they did nothing but what they had just cause for , and the parliament that sat last at westminster were of the same opinion . mr. just . jones . i did you no wrong in repeating the evidence , you see , mr. colledge . colledge . did i not first dispute with you that they did not begin the war , nor cut off the king , but the papists did it . mr. masters . look you mr. colledge , you would have had it the king began the war. colledge . don't you say so , for i said the papists began the war. sir say no more to me than what you will answer to god almighty ; for i always said the papists did all the mischief in the late times : and i wonder sir you would not be so just to his majesty as to detect me for what i said then , if you apprehend it to be as you now say , but i am sure you did not , nor could not . mr. masters . mr. colledge , it was so far from that , that i was afraid it was of dangerous consequence , and i gave some persons of honour an accompt of it , and i was sent to but on friday last , to know what it was was said , and i was desired and commanded to come down hither . colledge . pray mr. masters , you are upon your oath , do me but justice , and speak upon your own conscience ; look you to it that you speak the truth . mr. masters . i will do you all the right i can in the world. colledge . then before the court do you declare whether we did not discourse at that time as i said , for this discourse was at mr. charlton's shop at the further end . mr. masters . no it was at the entrance into the shop , mr. colledge ; and did not we go into the arch and talk there . mr. serj. jefferies . mr. masters don't trouble your self , your reputation is not upon the level with that gentlemans . colledge . i desire he may speak the very truth and nothing but the truth . mr. masters . i do as near as i can , and do you no wrong ; you did not in your discourse say the parliament did not begin the war , nor cut off the king's head. colledge . you did say to me they did cut off the king's head , and i told you no , the papists did . mr. masters . i think you did say that the papists had an hand in it ; but , sir , you have left out the most material part of our discourse , which was , that you said they did nothing but what they had just cause for . colledge . i do say , and it was my sence always , that the parliament did not cut off the king's head , for they were long out of doors before that came to pass , and a new unhappy war was begun . l. ch. just . the war was a rebellion on the parliaments part , let us not mince the matter , and so it was declared by act of parliament ; and if you argued after that rate , it shews your temper , and that you are a very ill man ; for they that justifie such things as to the time passed , would lead us to the same things again if they could . therefore don't go about to palliate it , ad faciendum populum here , 't is nothing to the matter , but only to shew your principles , and the jury have heard what mr. masters says . colledge . i was then a child , and do not know all the passages , but i speak my sence . l. ch. just . you should not have justified such things . mr. just . jones . who appointed the high court of justice that tryed the king and condemned him , but the parliament ? mr. just . levinz . it was the garbage of that parliament i am sure , that is the rump , but they called themselves the parliament of england , and the parliament it was that begun the war. colledge . my lord , i did not know , nor don 't know that it is proved yet , that the parliament were those that did cut off the king's head. i don't know , mr. masters is pleas'd to say this of me ; but i thought no evil , nor did he understand it so i believe at that time , for he did not seem to take advantage of my discourse . i know he talked violently and passionately with me , as he used to do ; and for mr. masters to say this of me now , is a great unkindness ; for i thought he was so much a gentleman , that if i had spoken any thing that had not become me , he would have taken notice of it then . mr. serj. jefferies . he did then he tells you . colledge . had i known of it , i am sure mr. charlton would have done me justice , and set things right ; but this i say , i did first excuse the parliament from being concerned in the murder of the king , or that they did begin the war , but the papists did it : if it were otherwise , it was more than i understood ; and after that i said , i thought that the parliament that sate last at westminster , did stand up for the peoples rights , after the same manner that the parliament in . did . mr. just . jones . what just after the same manner , in raising war and rebellion against the king ? colledge . after i had discoursed it thus , my lord , as i told you , it could not be understood that i thought that parliament would cut off the king's head : and therefore you that are my jury , pray consider , and take it all together , there could be no such meaning made of my words ; for i did not conceive that that parliament were concerned in those things , but were a parliament that stood up for the rights of the people ; now if it were so , then the parliament at westminster were of the same opinion . l. ch. just . i tell you the long parliaments levying war is declared rebellion by act of parliament . colledge . my lord , if there hath been an act since that says they were guilty of rebellion , i declare it 't is more than ever i knew before . this is the first time that ever i heard of it . mr. serj. jefferies . you are a mighty learned gentleman to talk of those points indeed . colledge . my lord , i desire to know whether any words that were spoken months before they gave in their depositions can be a sufficient evidence in law against me now ? l. ch. justice . 't is upon the act of the th of this king you speak . colledge . yes , my lord , i take it upon that statute . l. ch. justice . i tell you as to that part of the statute which concerns misdemeanors , there is a particular clause for prosecution by order of king or council ; but as to that part of the statute that concerns treason , it must be prosecuted within six months , and the inditement within three months after . colledge . what statute is this inditement grounded upon ? mr. just . jones . all statutes that concern treason . l. ch. justice . upon the statute of the of edw. . which declares the common-law , and the statute of the th of this king , which when you have done , i will have read to the jury . colledge . then pray my lord , let me ask you one question , whether the statute of the th of edw. . does not say that there shall be two positive witnesses to treason ? mr. just . jones . no , but there is another that does . colledge . i am ignorant of the law , and therefore i ask the question . l. ch. justice . well , i will tell you , there must be two witnesses in the case , but one witness to one fact at one time , and another witness to another fact at another time , will be sufficient evidence to maintain an indictment of treason ; this was told you in the morning . mr. just . jones . and it was told you withal , that it was the resolution of all the judges in the case of my lord stafford when he was tryed in parliament . colledge . they proved fact in that case , writing of letters , and offering money to kill the king , but nothing of fact is proved against me , but riding into the country with arms that i had three years before . l. ch. justice . we will read the statute of the th , wherein words are declared to be treason . colledge . i pray it may be read , if you please . ( which was done . ) l. ch. justice . look you here , to compass or imagine the imprisonment of the king and to express it by malitious and advised speaking , when proved by two lawful witnesses , is treason by this act. colledge . now , whether you will distinguish , that there must be two witnesses to distinct places or times , or whether the statute intends two witnesses to every particular fact and words . l. ch. justice . we told you our opinion before , that one witness to one fact , and another to another of the same treason , was sufficient . we are upon our oaths in it , and speak not our own opinions , but what hath received publick resolution in cases of the like consequence . colledge . what lies before these gentlemen of the jury as done at oxon , 't is but upon a single testimony . mr just . levinz . nay , mr. dugdale and mr. turbervile both swear the same thing , your design to seize the king at oxon. and it would be the difficultest thing in the world to prove treason against any man if the law were not so , and a man might commit all sorts of treason securely ; for to be sure he would never say the same things before two witnesses in one time , and the king would be no sort safe ; for there would never be two witnesses to one and the same thing : but that hath been resolved often and often over and over again , particularly in my lord stafford's case , as you have been told . colledge . my lord , you say the king is not safe upon those terms , and no private man is safe in the other way . mr. just . levinz . we say that the law is so , and there is good reason for it . mr. just . jones . we must not alter nor depart from the allowed received law. l. ch. justice . i say the thing hath been considered in other cases , and the law hath been adjudged and setled . it was so resolved in my lord stafford's case when the judges by the command of the parliament did deliver their opinion upon that point moved by him . colledge . there is nothing of fact proved against me but a pair of pistols , a sword , and an horse . l. ch. justice . we have told you the law , and answered your question . colledge . but as the case stands , if that be the law , all society and conversation must be ruined by it . mr. just . jones . pray go on , when do you think we shall have done else ? colledge . however i do not insist upon that so much , as that the testimonies and oaths of these men are altogether invalidated , by substantial persons that have here testified against them . i do declare upon my salvation , ( i have nothing else to say ) i am wholly innocent , and the jury are my judges , and i beseech them , as they will answer me at the great day of judgement , where they must appear as sure as i stand at this bar now , that they do me right , and go according to their own consciences ; for if a man shall be sworn against by such fellows as these are , no man is safe . mr. serj. jefferies . the worse , the better to be trusted by you . colledge . i am sure it cannot be thought by men of common reason , that i should speak treason at that rate that they have sworn , and to such men , men of their profession , irish men , and papists , traitors that have declared they have been in all manner of rogueries , murders , plots and treasons . therefore , my lord , i cannot do any more for my self , because i have no notes , and cannot recite what hath been said for me or against me ; but i do depend upon your lordship , and i hope you will inform the jury rightly , and do me justice ; and i do pray the jury that they will let their consciences be satisfied , as they are english men , and as they are christians , to consider how the case lyes with me , whether there has not been more occasion of talking of late , and whether a slip of the tongue may be called a premeditated , malicious , advised speaking , i mean , my discourse with mr. masters . he talked with me as hot as fire , he was so violent , and i did discourse him at that rate i have told you , and that is truth , as i have a soul to be saved : i did excuse the parliament , that as i understood it , they had no hand in the beginning of the war , or the murder of the king. my lord , as for the rest that have sworn against me so desperately , i must say , that if the jury did not as well consider my evidence as theirs , yet they might well consider , whether it consists with common sence and reason , that i should speak to these men after this rate , when i could lay no obligation upon them , nor have any confidence in them ; necessitous persons , that could not assist me one mite , men that were beholding to me to borrow money of me , and that eat of my cost , that i had always been obliging to , and not they to me . but i hope i need insist upon this no further ; the whole nation is sensible what is doing , and what this does signifie : they have begun with me in order to the making of a presbyterian plot , which they would carry on to stifle the noise of the popish plot ; and this is not the st . the d. nor the th . time that they have been at this game ; how many shams have they endeavoured to raise — mr. att. gen. who do you mean by they ? colledge . the papists . mr. att. gen. there is nothing of popery in the case ; they are all protestants . mr. just . jones . they are all persons that have lately receiv'd the sacrament . colledge . they were all papists , and i believe are so still ; for mr. dugdale did justifie to me the church of rome in several things : and when i told him that they were all knaves and fools that were of that religion , he told me , that many of their priests were holy good men . mr. just . jones . have you proved that ? colledge . i can't prove it , it was betwixt him and me , my lord. mr. just . jones . then i hope you have done . colledge . if i had sworn against him , he had stood in my place . l. ch. just . have you done , mr. colledge ? colledge . my lord , i only desire the jury to take all into their serious consideration ; i expect a storm of thunder from the learned counsel to fall upon me , who have liberty to speak , and being learned in the law , understand these things better than i , who must defend my self without counsel . i know not whether it be the practice in any nation , but certainly 't is hard measure , that i being illiterate and ignorant in the law must stand here all day , they being many , and taking all advantages against me , and i a single person , and not able to use one means or another either of writing or speaking . but , gentlemen , i do declare and protest , as i shall answer it at the day of judgement , that as to what these people have sworn against me either as to words , or as to any manner of treason against the king , the government , the laws established , i take god to witness i am as innocent as any person upon earth . and therefore i must beseech you be not frightened nor flattered ; do according to your judgements and your consciences ; you are to be my judges both in law and fact ; you are to acquit me or to condemn me , and my bloud will be required at your hands . and whatsoever is said to you by others , you are my true judges , you must give an account of the verdict you give ; and therefore you must see that you do justice , as you will answer it at another bar , where you must all certainly appear , and the lord almighty direct you that you do me true justice , and i ask no more . mr. sol. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . here hath been a great deal of time spent , and truly i think for no other reason but to divert you from the matter that is before you , and that you might forget the evidence that hath been given . and therefore i will briefly repeat it to you , that i may refresh your memories about what hath been sworn . gentlemen , the crime charged upon mr. colledge is high treason in imagining and compassing the death of the king ; the proof of that hath been by a conspiracy to seize the king here at oxon , which conspiracy he declared he was in , by shewing arms prepared for that purpose , and by coming down to oxon with that intent , this is the proof of his design to kill the king. colledge . is the conspiracy proved of that mr. solicitor ? l. ch. just . mr. colledge , we have had a great deal of patience with you , you have spent a great deal of time , you must contain your self now , and let them go on . colledge . do not let him do me wrong my lord. mr. sol. gen. i will do you no wrong mr. colledge . colledge . sir , there is no conspiracy proved . l. ch. just . look you mr. colledge , you have taken up a great deal of time , and we have had much patience because we consider your condition , and had rather hear too much than be hard upon you , and because the evidence was long and difficult to repeat , now we have heard you , you must have patience to hear what the kings counsel repeat and observe upon it . mr. sol. gen. as i was saying the fact that is charged upon him , is a design to kill the king , the manifestation of that design is by preparing arms to that purpose , and by coming down to oxon to seize the king here , and that this was his manifest intent to seize the king , the proof of it hath been by witnesses , that i think by and by you will have no objections against . these witnesses were dugdale , turbervile , smith and haynes , these are the most material witnesses to the treason , there are two other witnesses indeed , but they are to other circumstantial matters that i will take notice of to you by and by , and make my observations upon them in their proper place . mr. dugdale was the first witness that was produced , and his evidence is very full , he proves that mr. colledge declared to him at the coffee-house here , that he was come down with an intent to seize the king , that he had an expectation some thing would be done , that he was armed , and that he did advise mr. dugdale to be armed too , for he was provided for the rooting out of popery , which he explained himself what he meant by it , that was the church of england , and the king and all his adherents . he came hither armed for that purpose gentlemen , and did advise mr. dugdale to arm himself too , that he did declare to him the king was a papist , and all his family were papists , he was as deep in the plot , and as guilty of the murder of sir edmond-bury godfrey , as any body else . this was what he declared to dugdale here , and this he swore to you when he gave his evidence . the next witness is mr. turbervile , and he is positive to the matter that is laid in the indictment , and swears to you expresly , that he did declare to him at the chequer-inn , that they came down here in expectation of some sport , that something would be done , that they did expect the king would begin with them , but if they did not , they would begin with him , and they would secure him till they had brought him to complyance . he shewed him his arms , that he was ready to ingage in that design , and advised turbervile to be ready too . and the rather than turbervile should not be ready he offered to procure him an horse . colledge . every man had the same armes that i had , and i had had them long before that time . mr. sol. gen. but every one had them not with the same intent , but gentlemen , because mr. colledge interrupts me with an objection , i will take notice of it now by the way . he says those armes he had before , and therefore they were not provided for this purpose , gentlemen , we do not pretend to prove when this trayterous intent first began , and how long this design hath been hatching , but such a design there was , and such a design he manifested to be in himself when he made the declaration to turbervile , and advised him to arme himself , whether he prepared them against that time or no is not material , if he had them before , and if he had them first innocently , yet if he afterwards designed them for such a purpose , and shewed them in a readiness for it , that is a sufficient evidence to prove this treason . so here are two witnesses you observe against the prisoner of this matter that is laid against him in the indictment , an intent to kill the king , they both prove it positively upon him at oxon. mr. dugdale speaks to matters precedent to , for he tells you , his discourse before they came down , that they would come down for that purpose , that they had an expectation some thing would be done , and therefore he came down in an equipage not suitable to his profession , for you see he was by trade a carpenter or a joyner , but armed on horseback with a case of pistols , things that don't become such men to travel with , and he did declare to mr. dugdale for what purpose he came down . the next witness is mr. smith , and mr. smith is as positive and full to this matter of treason as any of the rest . colledge . there is scarce a carpenter or a joyner in london but hath pistols when he rides . l. ch. just . mr. colledge , we must not suffer this , we had so much patience with you that we expect you should be quiet now and not interrupt the counsel . colledge . my lord , let me not be overborn upon , there is scarce a poulterer in london , but what hath pistols . mr. sol. gen. we had great patience with you mr. colledge , and did not interrupt you i am sure , but let you say what you would . i think i do you no wrong , if i do , i am under the correction of the court , they will reprove me if i do that which does not become me . mr. just . jones . did not you ramble i don't know how , and yet you were suffered to go on ? mr. sol. gen. he tells you of a discourse as he came from the coffee-house to go to a dinner whither he was invited by alderman wilcox ; and the discourse was , that the king was as great a papist as the duke , and much more to that purpose vilifying the king. that alderman wilcox was a man that gave money to buy armes to bring the king to submission . he objects against this , and says , 't is impossible such a discourse should be , and that all this should be talked in so little a time , as in passing from the coffee-house to the crown-tavern without temple-barr . colledge . pray remember whose company it was proved i went in , mr. solicitor . mr. sol. gen. but gentlemen , when you consider , how busie a man he was , and how ready at talking of treason , you will not think , but that this man might talk much more than this ; but this i mention to do him right , it being one of the arguments he used ; and to give an answer to it , tho' when you consider it , i believe you will think it not to need an answer . but i would do him all the right i can , and now you have heard it , you will consider the weight of it . gentlemen , he tells you of another discourse afterwards that does relate to his being here at oxon , he tells you he had armes in his house , and was ready upon all occasions , and he shew'd mr. smith his armes , and told him , these were the things that were to destroy rowley's guards , as he said , which by the evidence is made to appear he meant the king by that name , his armes he said were for that purpose . that he would go down to oxon , and there he expected some sport , i know not what sport he thinks there is in rebellion ; you see what principles he is of , that does maintain and justif●e the greatest and horridest rebellion that ever was in england , and says they did nothing but what they had good cause for . he tells smith that he thought the king would seize upon some members , and with that expectation he came down , but he was as ready as the king , and would be one in the securing of him , if he medled with any of the members . this proof mr. smith made ; and that after the parliament was dissolved , he said , that the king ran away , and was very much afraid . this is proved by smith likewise , and this colledge did declare after he came to town . smith proves further , that he did wonder the king did not consider how easily his father's head was brought to the block ; and for mr. colledge's part he did declare , that he did believe this king would be served so shortly . and this does confirm what his other witnesses have spoken of his words at oxon. thus then there are three witnesses , tho' two are enough to convict a man , if they be positive to the treason . mr. haynes is the th . witness , and he is as full as any of them . i do but repeat it in short ; you have had it so often canvassed by colledge , that i believe you will easily remember it . he did advise haynes that he should not value the king at all , for the king should be called to account for all his actions ; he said he would seize the king and bring him to the block as they did his father , with an undecent expression of that blessed king not fit to be repeated . and he said , they did intend when they had cut off him , never any more of his race should raign ; this it was haynes says , tho' there are other matters . i would take notice of one thing more , and i need not but mention it , you will remember it , and that is about the libel of fitzharris . haynes tells you upon discourse of that libel , he said , that every word of it was true , as sure as god is in heaven . now that was a libel made by a papist , an irish papist , who hath been tryed , convicted , and executed for it , and the horridest libel it was , that ever was writ . and this is the libel which this gentleman , who is so very conversant in libels , and books of that sort , avers to be as true as god is in heaven . this is the substance gentlemen of that proof which hath been made to you ; we have other circumstances to prove , that as he came down with that intent to seize the king , and as he expected what he calls some sport , so he did endeavour to begin the sport , he did quarrel in the lobby of the house of lords with fitz gerald , some blows passed , and sir william jennings telling him his nose bled , he did declare i have lost the first blood in the cause , but it will not be long before there be more lost . thus after he had come down , he endeavoured to begin a commotion , for from little matters great things do sometimes arise , and when all men were possest with an expectation , such as he himself did declare , he and others came down with an expectation that the parliament should be attacked ; a little matter , might have begun such a commotion which no man knows what end it would have had . gentlemen , this hath been our proof . now the objection made to this proof by mr. colledge , is , that this is a popish design to raise a new plot , and cast it upon the protestants , and that these witnesses are now to deny all the evidence they have given of the popish plot , and throw all upon the protestants . this is that he would perswade you to believe , but which i think when you do consider a little of it , it will be impossible for you in the least to have such a thought . for what are the evidence that have ●●●ved this ? who are they ? men of credit , that have been evidences against the popish plotters , and against men that have suffered for that plot , men that still stand to the evidence they have given , and affirm it every word to be true , and one of the very men that he brought says , that they still stand to it ; for turbervile who was one of the witnesses against my lord stafford was tempted by some persons to deny the evidence he had given against the papists , but his answer was , no , i can never depart from it , i have a soul to save , that was true which i said , i cannot deny it . it then the witnesses which he would have you believe to be guilty of denying the popish plott , do confirm what they have said as to that discovery , that objection is taken off , and they doe stand still to if that every part of it was true , and aver the same thing ; and yet forsooth these men are going about to stifle this plot. gentlemen , these are the men the whole nation have given credit to , the parliament having impeached my lord stafford upon the credit of them ( for it was upon the credit of dugdale and turbervile that they impeached him , for there was not two witnesses till turbervile came in and made a second , and upon their credit ) after so solemn a tryal where all the objections that could possibly be made were made , the house of lords thought fit to find my lord stafford guilty , and my lord stafford suffered for it , and dyed upon the credit of these men . these are the witnesses gentlemen , that this man thinks ought to be blown off with that frivolous objection , that they are persons he would have you believe , who are guilty of a design to throw the plot upon the protestants . but because he hath desired to save himself in an herd , by numbring himself amongst the protestants . i must a little observe to you what a sort of protestant he is , a man he would have you to believe , so popular for his religion , that he hath obtained the name of the protestant joyner . but when you have considered what his actions are , i believe you will a little suspect his religion . if the protestant religion allow any man to vilifie the king , to arraign the government , and to throw off all manner of allegiance , then this man is a protestant : but if this be to act the part of a papist , and if the papists could wish that such an infamy might be put upon the protestant religion , that it should justifie such a rebellion as the late horrid one was , and own such a principle that it is lawful for any subject to asperse and vilifie the king , as this man by those many and scurrilous libels seems to do ; if they could wish this nation overturned , and the government in confusion , and the church of england destroyed , the best bulwark now in the world against popery , and the best or only refuge at this day left for the poor afflicted protestants abroad . then whilest mr. colledge does thus act the part of a papist , he does very ill to call himself a protestant . gentlemen , i cannot but observe one thing to you , and it was the evidence of dr. oates , when he did first discover the plot , and without his evidence you would easily believe the thing . he told you there were two ways they had to accomplish their design , by direct murdering of the king , or if that failed , by putting all things into confusion here , and raising rebellion and disturbance amongst us , and the way to affect that rebellion it was by having emissaries sent among us , to work us into a dislike of the church , and by that means into a rebellion against the state. that some men were sent abroad for that purpose to preach at conventicles , some whereof were catched , and some did suffer . now without this evidence it would not be hard to believe , that such there are , and have been , for all that know the history of our reformation do know that it was an early practice among them , to raise sects amongst us , to bring confusion first into the church , and then in the state. and we have already found the sad effects of it . now gentlemen , if colledge have all this while under the name of a protestant acted the part of a papist , though i cannot say he is a papist , nor that he is one of those emissaries , yet i may say he is not that good protestant he pretends to be . gentlemen , i must now to do him right , come to repeat the evidence that he hath given against our witnesses ; for mr. haynes he hath produced several witnesses , one is mr. hickman , who says he overheard haynes say to one that was his tenant , that it was his trade to swear , and he must get money by it . this he overheard him standing and listning at a door . you have another man lun , that is the next witness , and he says that at the fleet-ditch where he saw him , there he declared the same thing to him , that he would swear any thing for money , and dam his soul rather than the catholick cause should sink ; and now he comes to prove a plot upon him that is a protestant , and in his person upon all the protestants of england , and this man would fain throw off the credit of the popish plot , and turn it upon the protestants . but gentlemen it is strange , that mr. haynes should have this discourse with lun , the first time that ever he saw him , for i am sure his own witness lun says it was the first time , and that he should immediately talk to him at this rate is somewhat strange : but for an answer to it , this lun we have confronted with the evidence of white the messenger , who swears , that afterwards meeting him at vxbridge , lun asked him what gentleman that was , and did not know mr. haynes , and yet he takes upon him to prove , that he had spoke such words to him before . i think there is never another material witness against haynes except whaley , who was an under-officer in the kings-bench ; and he says , that haynes while he was a prisoner there ran away with a silver tankard , but he never was indicted or prosecuted for it , tho' he remained afterwards in the house ; and this was or years ago . now gentlemen , i think the nature of this evidence hath not that weight , as to take off the credit of what this man hath said upon his oath , especially when this man's evidence is so backed with the evidence of other men , that i think there is no objection at all against it . for the other witnesses , dugdale , smith and turbervile , are men whose credit has not been impeached , and they have confirmed in substance what the evidence of haynes is ; so that he does not stand alone in what he here swears , but 't is confirmed with concurrent evidence with it . then gentlemen , for the objection against dugdale , turbervile and smith , they have produc'd dr. oates to you , and he must vilifie the credit of those men , whose testimony as to what he gave at first in discovering the popish plot , received credit by being seconded by these men . and i cannot but observe it as a strange thing , that this man comes now to vilifie the testimony of those , who have given evidence and been credited by the whole kingdom ; that he should come here upon the word of a priest to declare , that mr. dugdale was a man of very lewd conversation , and was a person that had a soul disease on him , when he pretended he was poisoned . i remember this was an objection that hath been made by the papists to him , and i believe you have heard it often out of their mouths ; but it is the first time that ever i heard it from any one that is a witness of the popish plot , and pretends to stand up for the protestant religion . gentlemen , if any such thing as this could have been made out against him , it had been made out ere now , the papists would have taken advantage of it ; and when the wit of all that party was bent against him , he could not have escaped the having it proved . if it had been true , yet dr. oates takes upon him now to vilifie his credit , and takes up those arguments the papists have maliciously suggested , but yet were never able to make out . this looks as if the doctor were again returning to st. omers , that he is thus going about to disparage the evidence of mr. dugdale , which in great measure verified the truth of that discovery , which himself first made of the popish plot. against turbervile , gentlemen , i think there hath been very little at all objected that can have weight with you . mr. brodgate , as i suppose you observe , has said enough to confirm turbervile's credit ; for he hath proved to you , that when he was tempted to renounce his evidence against the papists , he refused to do it , he had more conscience than to do it , he knew well enough what he had said was true , and as he had a soul to save , he could not go from it . this is the evidence that he gives , and which certainly serves much to confirm the truth of turbervile , besides the strict examination he hath been under , and beyond any thing that dr. oates , i think , has been able to contradict him in . dr. oates condradicts smith about his coming from the coffee-house to wilcox's dinner . he says , he did not come along with mr. colledge , but colledge came along with dr. oates , and smith followed them . but , gentlemen , you hear what smith hath declared upon his oath , that they came both together out of the coffee-house ; and you hear what his witness mr. smith the councellor says : he does not positively remember that circumstance , yet one would think he should ; for oates says , mr. smith the lawyer walked just before them , and colledge followed . mr. smith that is the witness for the king , he swears he came along with colledge , but mr. smith the lawyer being asked that question , he does not remember that . then another thing is , dr. oates sayes , when they were there , colledge was so far from discoursing of any treasonable matters , that he was very merry in the company , and talking innocently , but mr. smith sayes , he was so far from being merry or talking treason , that he fell fast asleep , and slept behind the table . gentlemen , these objections you see what the weight of them is , and how little the evidence agree one with another , but there is nothing that does contradict mr. smith in his main evidence . 't is possible they may not remember particular circumstances , whether mr. colledge and mr. smith came together , so they might come together for ought they know , and they may not remember any circumstance about their retiring , but they can't take upon them to swear it is not so , and their not remembring it does not prove it was not so , and the circumstance it self is so trivial , that there was no necessity they should remember it . so then no evidence that comes from dr. oates can take off that that is given by smith , tho' if mr. smith were out of the case , and mr. haynes too , yet there is evidence sufficient from mr. dugdale and mr. turbervile who are not impeached , and are both of them positive , both to the fact and to the place . there are two witnesses more that i must mention , and they are balron and mowbray ; they swear that smith travelling upon the road with them , would have subborned them to swear against john brooks , about a discourse at some place ; but it happened gentlemen , they differ in point of time in their testimony , the one said it was the th . of july , the other was positive it was the d. of august . but i think i need say no more to these men , but only to desire you to weigh their credit . balron and mowbray i confess have been evidence against several men that have been accused of the popish-plot , but they have been so unfortunate , as never to gain credit with any jury . mr. smith hath been believed by the whole court of parliament ; but if there were no more in the case , these are two men that never were yet believed , men that have been sworn in their own country , where they are well known , and been evidence upon tryals , but the jury have rejected the credit of their testimony ▪ but besides that , comparing the testimonies , and the difference that was between them , is a sufficient evidence to confront all that they have said . i think gentlemen , this is the substance of what hath been offered by his witnesses against the witnesses produced for the king ▪ except that of mr. everard , who says something against haynes , that haynes should say he swore for self-preservation ; and against mr. smith he says , that he heard him say , he did not know of any presbyterian plot. i believe that may be true , and yet it does not contradict smith's evidence against colledge ; for mr. smith does not tell you , that he was privy to any such design of the presbyterians , that he knows of any consultations that they held , or the ways and means by which they would arrive at the treason charged upon the prisoner at the bar , but his evidence is , that this man declared there was such a design , that there was a party would do it , and that he would be sure to be one , and armed himself for that purpose ; but his not being privy to any plot , or knowing the particulars , is no contradiction to what he said . this is that he hath produced for his defence , and by these things he hath endeavoured to take off the credit of our witnesses , and he would have you believe that he is a very good protestant , though he does that which no protestant would do , and which is the papists work , he hath produced you witnesses that he has gone to church , but i do not see he hath produced any witnesses at all that are now conversant with him , his own parishoners in london ; but if he had brought never so many witnesses of his going to church , and of his conformableness to the church , yet if he were guilty of these practices , he must give me leave to suspect the truth of his profession ; and i think it a great piece of arrogance for him to take upon him the title of a protestant , when he hath abused that title by such unsuitable practices : and gentlemen , if such practices as these are , which we have fully proved , are such as all good men must abhor , i cannot but reflect upon the condition of this man , whose only hopes is , that you should now forget your selves , and become as ill as he is . but as that cannot be presumed , so i shall not need to say any more to you ; you are men of that consideration that can judge between things , and the appearances of them , and know very well how to give the due weight to the evidence we have given to you , as well as the objections made by the prisoner ; and so gentlemen i shall leave it to you . mr. serjeant jeffries , may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; it hath been a long time that hath been spent in the course of this evidence ; whether there has been any art or design in protracting the time , on purpose to obtrude upon the patience of the court , or that you gentlemen should forget the force of the evidence that hath been given against the prisoner at the bar , when there hath been so much time taken up unnecessarily , when there was no occasion , as i must needs say , there was not for such a tedious defence , i leave it to you to determine : but that which was truly intimated by the court at the beginning of the tryal , must in the end of this cause be repeated , and indeed go through it all , that we of the kings councel , and what the prisoner has affirmed , that has not been given in proof , signifying nothing , and is not to be any guide at all to you . you are upon your oaths , and by the oath you have taken you are bound in conscience to give a verdict according to the evidence that has been given to you , and that is your guide ; so that what we opened and have not proved , is no more to be believed then what the prisoner has said for himself in his own defence ; and whatsoever he says , if he make not good proof of it , is no more to be regarded , then what we who are for the king have alledged , and not made out . so then this being in the first place premised , i shall take care as near as i can to save the time of the court , and not to trespass on your patience gentlemen unnecessarily , in a case whereupon as great a concern does depend , as perhaps ever came to tryal at any bar : for i say 't is a case wherein the life and the liberty of the king is concerned , and that is the great concern of the nation ; the religion of the nation is concerned ; i would be understood aright , i mean the protestant religion established by law ; for i know of no other religion men ought to sacrifice their lives and fortunes for , but the protestant religion established by law ; and when these thing are concerned , 't is a case of great consequence : god forbid any person , protestant , or other , should attempt the life of the king , and the subversion of our religion , and by stiling themselves by the name of protestants , should excuse themselves from any such crimes . for the evidence that has been given , i shall not enumerate the particulars against the prisoner at the bar , other then such as have been omitted , ( if i mistake not , ) by mr. sollicitor . in the first place there are the things that hapened at oxon , for you have had it already sufficiently told you by my lords the judges who are upon the bench , and who ( under mr. colledges favour ) are the prisoners judges in point of law , as you are his judges in point of fact. they have ( i say ) already told you what the law is in relation to treasons ; that in case the treason be in two counties , if the witnesses speak to the self same treason , though to different facts , that will be two witnesses to prove high-treason ; and that there hath been such a case , the the prisoner at the bar , who he says is a protestant ( for his own souls sake i wish he were a good one ) must take notice , that gavan the great priest who was tryed at newgate , and convicted , by what evidence ? by one of them that is a witness now against the prisoner at the bar , that is dugdale , his treason was committed part in london , part in the country , of which part dugdale gave evidence ; but being both to the self same purpose , by the greater part of the judges , who were in the commission , and present at the tryal , they were reckoned a sufficient testimony to prove him guilty of high treason : and i hope we do not live to that age , that any protestant whatsoever should come to trip up the heels of the popish-plot ▪ by saying , that any of them who suffered for it , did die contrary to law , or without sufficient proof : for if mr. dugdale was not a person fit to be believed ; or if the rest of the judges who tryed gavan were out in the law , then that man died wrongfully ; for he had as much right to have been tryed according to the law , as any other person whatsoever . therefore gentlemen , as to that matter , we must submit it to my lords the judges , who are to give you an account what the law is in all particulars before you ; but as to the fact whereof you are judges , that is the great matter we shall apply our selves to , and for that it stands thus . here is dugdale that does give you an accompt what his design was in coming to oxford ; how he came to be armed as an index ( gentleman ) of his mind . and pray give me leave to put you in mind of one thing . you have first a libel produced , and read to you ; a pretended letter , wherein there are quaeries that have been taken notice of , and which seem to back the evidence given by mr. masters : for there is a vindication in those queries of the proceedings of that parliament of . which he has confidence enough now at the barr to justifie too . but gentlemen you were told by the court , and you know it , that that parliament was guilty of high rebellion ; and even in those quaeries he asperses not only the government , but every man that has any concern in it ; for it takes notice not only of the king , but of all his council . never a judge nor an officer in the nation but is traduced by it ; and which is most material , it was the foundation of that libel which has been mentioned to you , and which fitz haris was so justly condemned and executed for , that most traiterous and infamous libel in part of it has these quaeries , and a great paragraph of this libel makes up part of that libel of fitz harris , which our witnesses say mr. colledge was pleased to affirm was as true as god is in heaven . another thing is this , this gentleman whose proper business it had been to manage his employment at london for a joyner , is best seen in his proper place , usiing the proper tools of his trade . i think it had been much more proper for him ▪ and i believe you will think so too , then to come with pistols and all those accoutrements about him , to be regulating of the government ; what have such people to do to interfere with the business of the government , god be thanked we have a wise prince , and god be thanked he hath wise counsellours about him , and he and they know well enough how to do their own business , and not to need the advice of a joyner , tho' he calls himself the protestant joyner . what had he to do to engage himself , before his advice was required ? how comes he to concern himself so much that after he had writ this libel wherein he is pleased to take notice of tyrants afterwards should go to make a print , i mean the rare shew ; and when dugdale comes to inquire of him what do you mean by such a thing , the tyrant shall go down ? says he , i mean by that the king. and what do you mean by having them go to breda ? why there he explains it , that he puts all the government , the lords and the bishops upon the kings back , and being asked what he meant to have done with them , why the bishops , and the king , and all were to go to breda . these are the things that himself did acknowledge he was the author of , and these prints he did cause to be made , and he is the person that gives you an account , that it was but the conception and imagination of dugdale , that rowley meant the king ; but dugdale being called again , he tells you after some time , that he was under some difficulty to know the meaning of it ; and then colledge tells him it was meant the king ▪ and so he expounded it to him . and so smith tells you of that same name of old rowley again . gentlemen , thus i tell you what hath been omitted . the evidence hath been long , and therefore we must be pardoned , if we can't exactly repeat it . this is the evidence that was done at oxon , the next is mr. smith , who speaks of what was done in london , and he is an evidence both as to the word rowley , as to the coming with arms , and as to the declaring to what end he came , and what he had done , mr. haynes he tells you both before and after the same , and that i must take notice of to you , mr. smith does particularly say , he used those words , which i hope every honest man , and every good man , that desires to preserve the government according to law , will hear with the greatest detestation and abhorrence ; he talked of the taking away the life of the late king of blessed memory at such an impudent rate , that every true protestants blood would curdle at the hearing of it . and this he said not only to mr. masters , but he justified it to mr. smith too . in the next place you have turbervile , who gives you all the reasons , how he did not only tell of these things himself , but encouraged him to prepare himself accordingly , and he gave him a mark , a ribbon with no popery ▪ no slavery . these were marks whereby they were to be known , and they were to be one and all , as they call it , that , when such a blow was struck , they should be ready to fall in . there is one thing more that i take notice of , that is , what was said by a gentleman sir william jennings , which is a confirmation of all the other evidence , that gentleman who hath appeared to you to be a man of honour even by the confession of mr. colledge himself , and by his own words , for he said like an honest man , and like a loyal man too , that he would rather engage himself in three dangers for the service of the king at sea , than come in cold blood to give evidence against a man for his life at the bar. and yet this man who tells you this of himself ▪ and that very person whom colledge himself calls a worthy person , hath given you this accompt , that when he told him his nose bled , he answer'd him , it was the first blood lost in the cause , but it would not be long e're there was more lost ; an excellent cause for a man to venture his blood in . when he was told of this , he began to put it off , and to use his own words , had a great mind to sham off the business , but in truth there was no answer given to it . gentlemen , the objections that have been made against the evidence that have not been taken notice of , i desire to take notice of . i think against three of them there has been only mr. oates , and mr. oates i confess has said in verbo sacerdotis strange things against dugdale , smith and turbervile . i have only the affirmation of mr. oates , and as ill men may become good men , so may good men become ill men ; or otherwise i know not what would become of some part of mr. oates's testimony . and in the next place , if these men have not sworn true i am sure mr. oates must stand alone in the greatest point , in which all the evidence agree , that is the popish plot. but , gentlemen , i must take notice to you , that it is strange to me , that ever you upon your consciences should perjure three men who positively upon their oaths deny any such discourses as mr. oates speaks of against them , i do put that upon your consciences whether you upon the bare affirmation of mr. oates in this place will convict three men upon whose testimony the lives of so many as have suffered , have been taken away , and as we protestants do believe justly . i say , whether you will do it upon the bare affirmation of mr. oates against their oaths . in the next place , gentlemen , i must tell you , besides the positive evidence of these gentlemen , there is a circumstance of improbability in the very words which he speaks of , will any man tell me , that after such time as men have given their oaths , as smith had given his that he was concerned , and so had dugdale and turbervile too , that these men should come and voluntarily tell mr. oates they were all forsworn , are these men such great coxcombs as he would have us to believe ? is it so probable a thing , that any men of common knowledge would do it ? do you think a man of that knowledge and consideration , as smith is an allowed scholar , and a man of known learning , and mr. dugdale who has been reckoned by all men to be a good evidence ; do you take these men to be such absolute novices , that they must seek an occasion to tell him they were bribed off and were forsworn ? if you can think this , and if a bare affirmation against these positive oaths can prevail ; gentlemen upon your consciences be it . in the next place , 't is a strange sort of thing to believe that mr. smith should come out of a coffee-house , where a quarrel is pretended to have been between him and colledge , but mr. smith does upon his oath say he never had any such quarrel with him , and that he should fall a damning and sinking against colledge , and against the gospel , that there should be such impudence in the world in any man as to desire or wish such a thing ? gentlemen , these are strange sorts of apprehensions , and men must have very strange thoughts , that can strain themselves up to the belief of them . in the next place here it is said by the prisoner , good lord ! what a condition we shall be in ! here is a plot put upon the protestants , i hope in god there is no protestant plot , but i also hope the whole interest of the protestant religion is not involved in the prisoner at the bar , and all will be destroyed , if mr. colledge dies for his treasons . gentlemen , the question is not whether there be a presbyterian or protestant plot , we declare we know of none , but whether the prisoner at the bar have spoken such words , and done such things as are sworn against him . and i would fain know what all the discourses we have had about irish witnesses and papists signifie , when in all the course of our evidence , there has been but one irish , and never a papist . but here have been great discourses about macnamarra and denis , and what it hath been for , but to make a noise , and raise a dust , i can't tell , for in this cause there has not been one irish man besides haines , and never a papist throughout the whole evidence : so that it is easie , if men think it will take with the auditory , for a person to cry out , oh lord ! we are all like to be undone , here are irish witnesses brought against us ; and yet after all this stir , there is but one irish witness , and never a papist . and as for him , truely gentlemen i must take notice , that even colledge himself , till such time as he was taken , reckoned him an honest man. colledge . never in my life . mr serjeant jefferies . it was so said . but i do say gentlemen , suppose ( which i do not admit ) that the irish man he speaks of be out of the case ; not that the country is an objection against any mans testimony , god forbid it should be so affirmed ; for truth is not confined to places , nor to persons neither , but applyed to all honest men , be they irish men or others ; but i say , set mr. haynes out of the case : suppose there was no such man as haynes in this case ; yet i must tell you gentlemen , you have as great a proof as possibly can be . in the next place , i must take notice to you of some account that hath been given of him by himself : it is wonderful strange when there was that kindness of intimation given by the court , that he should do well to prove his loyalty , as well as his religion , that he did not produce some of his later acquaintance . if this man that makes himself a protestant , would have it believed he is such , i wish he would have brought some of those men that knew him at london to give you some account of him , and not to stretch backward years to prove his birth and education ; that is not the best account sure a man can give of himself , to say after he hath been talking at this disloyal rate , that he is a good protestant , because he was thought so years ago . again in the next place , here is an account of the libels given by the old woman that is his sister : truly she would have it , and that is another libel at the bar , as though the man in the red coat with r. c. upon it , had dropped this kind of libel in his house , and so he or some body else put a trick upon him ; and because she would inveigle you to such an interpretation , she says that they staid behind till the man in the red coat had fetched away the shavings , and so here is a new sham-plot to be put upon the prisoner , by dropping papers in his house ; a pretty kind of insinuation . but gentlemen , against the evidence of this woman , you have the very person that was there , the officer , who swears that he and his fellows came before the watermen into the house : but i suppose you observe how that notable talking maid and she does agree , for the maid tells you there came a strange fellow seven weeks before , delivered these things into her hands , her master was abroad , and she was not to enquire whence they came , or what they were , but paid him d. for bringing those things . now 't is very strange that the maid should pay for the bringing of those things , and yet after that should imagine that some body else should put them there . but now gentlemen , in the next place , i must tell you another thing which i would beg you to take notice of : here are two gentlemen , mr. balron and mr. mowbray , and they have given you an account that they have been evidence against the papists , they did well in it , but it hath been their misfortune hitherto they have not been believed ; but whether they have been believed or not before , is no guidance to you at this time , but that which is to guide you is , whether or not they have given you now a testimony that you in your consciences can believe . now can you believe what they have said , nay can you believe it without any circumstance to confirm it , against those express objections that arise from themselves , and against the oath of the person , when the one tells you so exactly of the th . th . th . and th . of july , and the other tells you that smith took post , and yet overtook them not till the sunday after , which was the d. of august ; and when the almanack is produced , it was so far from making out what they spake of to be the same time , that whereas one said he came to london the th . the others almanack says it was the th . then pray how do these persons agree , when the one says that mr. smith talked with him upon the road the th . and the other says that they came to london the th . these are circumstances , gentlemen , that you must weigh , and you may bring the north and the south together as soon as their two testimonies , they are so far asunder . besides , gentlemen , i hope you take notice of a person that was sworn , a person of some quality , a scholar in the university here , that says balron ( though he denied it ) did shew him one of these pictures , and did discover they were mr. colledges ; and balron himself , his own witness , tells you that he did acknowledge one of those pictures was his . it appears then how busie he was , and concerned himself in what belonged not to his profession . so that upon the whole matter , after this long evidence that hath been given , i must wholly appeal to your lordship and the jury ; as to the law , to your lordship and the court ; and as to the fact , to the jury : for i do not desire any sort of evidence should be strained against a prisoner at the bar , who is there to be tryed for his life . god forbid if he be innocent , but he should be acquitted ; but on the other side , consider the murder of that great king of ever blessed memory is before you , and remember that base reflection which the witnesses tell you of upon that horrid action ; and as a great evidence , remember that seeming vindication of it at the bar , which certainly no english man , no protestant according to the church of england , can hear without having his bloud stirred in him . and these things are not only testified by dugdale and smith , but by gentlemen of known reputation and quality ; and he hath a little discover'd himself by that defence he hath made against their testimony . but know , gentlemen , that the king is concerned , your religion is concerned , that plot that is so much agreed to by all pretestants is concerned ; for if dugdale , smith and turbervile be not to be believed , you trip up the heels of all the evidence and discovery of that plot. then i will conclude to you , gentlemen , and appeal to your consciences , for according to the oath that has been given to you , you are bound in your consciences to go according to your evidence , and are neither to be inveigled by us beyond our proof , nor to be guided by your commiseration to the prisoner at the bar against the proof ; for as god will call you to an account if you do an injury to him , so will the same god call you to account if you do it to your king , to your religion , and to your own souls . l. ch. justice . gentlemen , i shall detain you but a little , and shall be as short as i can , for your patience has been much exercised already : it is a burden , and a necessary one that lies upon us all , for there is nothing more necessary than that such tryals as these should be intire and publick , intire for the dispatch of them , and publick for the satisfaction of the world , that it may appear no man receives his condemnation without evidence , and that no man is acquitted against evidence . gentlemen , there are these two considerations in all cases of this nature ; the one is , the force of the evidence ; the other is , the truth of the evidence . as to the force of the evidence , that is a point in law that belongs to the court , and wherein the court is to direct you ; as to the truth of the evidence , that is a question in fact arising from the witnesses , and must be left upon them , whereof you are the proper judges . as to the force of the evidence in this case , it must be consider'd what the charge is ; it is the compassing the death of the king , and conspiring to seize the person of the king , which is the same thing in effect ; for even by the common law , or upon the interpretation of the statute of the th . of edw. . that mentions compassing the death of the king to be treason , it hath always been resolved , that whosoever shall imagine to depose the king , or imprison the king , are guilty of imagining the death of the king ; for they are things that depend one upon another : and never was any king deposed or imprisoned , but with an intention to be put to death , they are in consequences the same thing . now gentlemen , in cases of treason the law is so tender of the life of the king , that the very imagination of the heart is treason , if there be any thought concerning any such thing ; but then it must be manifested by some overt-act , upon the statute of the th . of edw. . but upon the statute of the th . of this king , made for the preservation of the king's person , if it be manifested by malicious and advised speaking , 't is sufficient . this is as to the charge , and as to the law concerning that charge , i must tell you there must be two witnesses in the case . now then for the force of the evidence , the question will arise there , whether this evidence , admitting it to be true , is sufficient to maintain the indictment ; so that if there be two witnesses , you must find him guilty . now as to this , gentlemen , the prisoner has before-hand called upon the court , and had their resolution ; and i hope you will remember what hath been said , and i shall have occasion to trouble you the less . there have been six witnesses produced for the king ; there are two of them , sir william jennings and mr. masters , that are some way applicable to the case , though they do not go to the treason , they are only to inferr the probability of the treason . this of sir william jennings , was upon the occasion of the bleeding of the prisoners nose , after his quarrel with fitz-gerald , when he said , he had lost the first bloud , and it would not be long e're there would be more lost ; which shews there were some extraordinary thoughts in his heart , concerning some divisions , quarrels , and fighting that he expected should be . that which mr. masters has said , ( besides what he offered concerning his principles in justifying the long parliament ) was this , that when he called him colonel , marry mock not , said he , i may be a colonel in time ; that shews some extraordinary thoughts were in his heart . colledge . will not that bear a more favourable interpretation , my lord ? must that necessarily follow upon my saying , i might be a colonel in time , and that more bloud would be lost ? if i had expressed it so . l. ch. justice . i say you had some extraordinary thoughts in your heart . colledge . i am sure the fittest to explain my own thoughts . l. ch. justice . you would have done well to have explained it which way you expected to be a colonel . colledge . it was not an expectation , for a may be , may not be ; my word was , mocking is catching : i thought he had called me cozen. l. ch. justice . well gentlemen , these are witnesses i say that go not to the treason , but only relate and reflect somewhat to shew there were thoughts in his heart , but no body could tell what they were , or know what he meant by them . colledge . then always they are to be taken in the best sence . l. ch. justice . for the other witnesses , stephen dugdale , john smith , bryan haynes , and edward turbervile , they are all of them , taking what they say to be true , very full witnesses . the prisoner hath objected as to two of them , because they speak to nothing that was done in oxfordshire , but turbervile and dugdale they speak to what was said in oxfordshire . now for that i must tell you , if you believe any one of these witnesses , as to what was said in oxford , and any of them as to what was said in london , relating to the same fact of treason , they will be two good witnesses to maintain the indictment , though the one is in the one county , and the other in another ; for if a treason be committed in two counties , it is in the kings election where he will exhibit the indictment , and the evidence from both counties is good evidence ; that i take for law , and these four witnesses , with that consideration that they are true , as i think are full witnesses to maintain this indictment . why then the next head is concerning the truth of this evidence , of which you are to be judges , and you are the proper judges whether the witnesses speak true or no ; therefore you must have your own consciences to direct you in that case , and what i shall say about them , shall be only for your assistance . gentlemen , i shall not take upon me to repeat the evidence to you , it has been long ; and for me to speak out of memory , i had rather you should recur to your own memories , and your own notes : only i shall say something in general to contract your consideration of it . and as i told you at first , you must mind nothing of what the kings counsel said , for nothing must have impression upon you , but what they proved ; so you are not to consider any thing of the facts the prisoner spake of , that are not proved neither ; for common justice is concerned in it , and no justice can be done at that rate , if the prisoners own affirmations or purgation should be taken . no man ever can be accused but he will be ready to say he is innocent , and say as flour is hung and popular things as ever he can for himself . and therefore these things must not weigh with you further , then as what is said , argues upon the proofs you have had . and you are to consider upon the proofs what the prisoner has produced , not what he says on the other side , for the proofs you have heard a great many witnesses in general produced by him , that say he was bred a protestant , and has been an honest man , that they knew no ill by him , that will be of little weight in a case of this consideration , for unless he were a man that had committed treason to the knowledge of all the world , there is no man but can produce witnesses that know no ill of him , nor any treason nor harm in him , therefore the question will lye upon the credit of the witnesses produced for the king barely , and that will be the consideration you are only to have , and you are to weigh them in the ballance against the witnesses produced against them . now gentlemen , for these witnesses i shall not repeat them to you , but only this i shall observe in general , that dugdale and turbervile that are the two most material witnesses relating to what was spoken in oxford-shire , have the least said against them . i do not remember i profess to you i do not ( but your own notes must guide you ) that there was any very material thing said against them , except what is said against them by dr. oates , and dr. oates does say against smith that he came out of the coffee-house , and swore damm him he would have colledges blood , and when he reproved him , and said it was not fit for a minister of the gospel to use such expressions , he said god damn the gospel , if that be true 't is a great reflection upon the credit of smith . he says as to dugdale , that when he was expostulating with him about his evidence he excused himself , that he was in want of money , and was pressed to it , and being asked did say he was pressed to swear against his conscience , he said yes , and much of the same kind he says as to turbervile , that he said he was disserted and would not starve . now all these three witnesses being called upon their oaths deny , that which dr. oates testifies . now if it were in an indifferent and probable matter to have three men condemned , and set aside by the testimony of one is not equal , unless the man were of mighty extraordinary credit , and his testimony of more than ordinary weight . but then i must tell you this matter is very probable , that after witnesses had sworn a thing they should voluntarily acknowledg themselves to be forsworn , and that without any provocation , they should at several times come to this one man and declare themselves rogues and villaines , but if it were probable , here are three mens oaths against one mans affirmation , this i say as to what concerns dugdale and turbervile , i do not see any thing material against them , besides now if you believe them , they are two witnesses to the full matter of the indictment , and two witnesses to what was done in oxford-shire , and that satisfies all the considerations of law. as to the rest of the witnesses bryan haynes and john smith , you have had many witnesses produced against them , i shall not undertake to repeat the evidence , 't is your place and duty to weigh their testimony , and i shall leave it to your consideration . mr. just . jones . i shall add nothing to what my lord hath said , nor indeed can . colledge . my lord , i wish you would look upon your notes , you would then find there was much more evidence , that you have not repeated against turbervile and dugdale , besides what you lordship urged . l. ch. just . if there be , i refer it to the memory of the jury , i can remember no more . colledge . i desire nothing but justice , and true justice . l. ch. justice . i am sure i design nothing else , you are a stranger to me , i believe i have seen your face , but i never knew you by name till now . look you if the jury be like to stay , they may take something to refresh themselves at the bar before they go . colledge . my lord i did see when the bill was brought against my lord howard , mr. attorny general and mr. solicitor were an hour and half with the grand jury . mr. serj. jefferies . you must say nothing now my lord has given the charge . colledge . let me have justice done my lord , that 's all i crave , that no body may be with the jury . l. ch. justice . look you mr. colledge , they might be with the grand jury , but as to the petty jury there shall be a bayliff sworn , and neither mr. attorny , nor mr. solicitor , nor no body else shall come to them till they be agreed of their verdict . mr. just . jones . if that be the thing you ask , you shall have it according to the law. colledge . and any friend of mine may be by . l. ch. justice . there shall be an officer sworn to keep them . then the court called for two bottles of sack , which the jury divided among themselves at the bar , for their refreshment in the presence of the prisoner . after which a bailiff was sworn , and the jury withdrawing to consider of their verdict , the court adjourned for half an hour , and when they returned , proclamation being made for attendance , the court sent to see whether the jury were agreed , who immediately came in to court. cl. of cr. gentlemen , are you agreed of your verdict ? om. yes , cl. of cr. who shall say for you ? om. foreman . cl. of cr. stephen colledge , hold up thy hand , look upon him you of the jury : how say you , is he guilty of the high treason , whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. look to him goaler , he is found guilty of high treason ; what goods , &c. at which there was a great shout given ; at which the court being offended , one person who was observed by the cryer to be particularly concerned in the shout , was committed to goal for that night , but the next morning having received a publick reproof , was discharged without fees. then it being about a clock in the morning , the court adjourned to . at which hour the court being sate , and first mr. aaron smith having entred into a recognizance of l. to appear the first day of the next term , at the court of kings-bench . l. ch. justice . where is the prisoner stephen colledge ? cl. of cr. set up stephen colledge . then the prisoner was brought to the bar. cl. of cr. hearken to the court and hold up thy hand ; thou hast been indicted and arraigned of high treason , and for thy tryal hast put thy self upon thy country , and they have found thee guilty , what canst thou say for thy self , why the court should not give judgment on thee to dye according to the law. colledge . my lord , i have nothing more to offer , but only that i am innocent of what is laid to my charge ; i think it was severe against me , now contrary to what was sworn at london : they swear now , i was to seize the king at oxon. in london they swore i would pluck the king out of whitehall , but 't is altered since , and now 't is to seize the king at oxon , but be it either one or to'ther ( for the one is as true as the other ) i am wholly innocent of either , i never had such a thought in my life , god forgive them that have sworn against me , i have no more to say , my lord. l. ch. justice . look you mr. colledge , it is too late to profess your innocence , you have been tryed and found guilty ; but because you say it now , 't is necessary for me to say something in vindication of the verdict , which i think the court were all very well satisfied with : there were sufficient proofs to warrant it , and the jury did according to justice and right . i thought it was a case , that as you made your own defence , small proof would serve the turn to make any one believe you guilty . for as you would defend your self by pretending to be a protestant . it is wonder , i must confess , when you called so many witnesses to your religion and reputation , that none of them gave an account that they saw you receive the sacrament within these many years , or any of them particularly had seen you at church in many years , or what kind of protestant you were . if we look to your words and actions , it is true , they did prove this , that you were mighty violent and zealous in crying out against popery and the papists ; but if we look to your actions , they favoured rather to promote the papists ends . for i must tell you , the papists are best extirpated , and suppressed by a steady prosecution of the laws against them , not by violent cryings out , and putting the people into fervent heats and confusions , for that is the thing the papists aim at ; they have no hopes any other way to creep into the kingdome but by confusion , and after the church is destroyed , that is under god the best bulwark against them . but you that cryed so loud against the papists , it was proved here , who you called papists . you had the boldness to say that the king was a papist , the bishops were papists , and the the church of england were papists . if these be the papists you cry out against , what a kind of protestant you are , i know not , i am sure you can be no good one , but truly i thought you would have made better proof of that thing , when you called so many witnesses to that purpose , and then if we look to your politicks , what opinion you had of the king , it was proved by your discourse , and by witnesses , that you could have no exception to their testimony , that you did justify the late horrid rebellion , and the consequents of that was the murder of the best king in the world , that you should go to justify the proceedings of that parliament , and affirm that they did nothing but what they had just cause to do . i say he that will justify such a thing , if there were the same circumstances , would do the same thing again . then if we look upon another part of your defence , as to your arms , it was objected you went armed to oxon , and that was made the evidence of the overt act when you said by words your intentions what you would do , that you would make one to seize the king , that you did go armed , you did confess i expected you should have said , you only wore those things for your own defence upon the road as a gentleman travelling , or went with your friends to accompany them out of town , and defend them from robbery , but you said , you went to guard the parliament . i did not understand what you meant by it . i do not believe the parliament sent for any guard , or intended to have any guard. i do not believe that any of them in their hearts thought they needed a guard ; for i believe there was not a man that had any thing that looked like that , or any thing of that nature . for we saw , that when the king by the necessity of his affairs , when the two houses differed so much , was pleased to dismiss them ; they all departed quietly , not a man was seen to be disturbed ; there was no appearance of any such thing , and how it should come into your head , that were but a private man to go to guard the parliament , i much wonder . suppose all men of your condition should have gon to have guarded the parliament , what an assembly had there been ? what a bustle might they have made , and what confusion might have been on a sudden ? and though you say you are no man of quality , nor likely to be able to do any thing upon the kings guards or the kings person , yet if all of your quality had gon upon the same design that you did , what ill consequences might have been of it , we see what has been done by massianello a mean man in another country , what by wat tyler and jack straw in this kingdom , i confess i know not what you meant by it , but very ill things might have happened upon it . so that these things when i look upon them , and consider the complexion of your defence , it makes an easie proof have credit . but i think there was a full proof in your case , yet i say if there had been a great deal less proof , the jury might with justice have found you guilty . and because you now declare your self innocent of all you are charged with , i think my self bound to declare here in vindication of the country , and in vindication of the justice of the court , that it was a verdict well given , and to the satisfaction of the court , and i did not find my brothers did dislike it . this i say to you out of charity , that you may incline your mind to a submission to the justice that has overtaken you , and that you may enter into charity with all men , and prepare your self for another life . there is nothing now remaining , but to pronounce the sentence which the law provides for such an offence , which is this , and the court does award , that you stephen colledge shall be carried from hence to the place from whence you came , and from thence you shall be drawn on an hurdle to the place of execution , where you shall be hanged up by the neck , and be cut down alive , your privy members shall be cut off , and your bowels taken out and burnt before your face , your head shall be cut off from your body , your body be divided into four quarters , which are to be at the kings dispose , and the lord have mercy upon your soul. colledge . amen . my lord , i would know what time your lordship is pleased to appoint for my preparation . l. ch. justice . that will depend upon the kings pleasure , we do not use in these cases of high treason to precipitate the execution , but we will leave such order with the sheriff to receive the kings pleasure and obey it . he will not do it so sudden but that you shall have notice to prepare your self , but it depends upon the kings pleasure , for your body is to be at his dispose . then the court adjourned . and on wednesday . of aug. . being the day appointed by his majesty for his execution , he was according to sentence , executed over against the gate of the castle at oxford . finis . a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, at a sessions there held on the st and d of june, being a true relation of the tryal and condemnation of the grand highway-man that robbed the ministers near uxbridg : with the tryal of the midwife for pretending to be deliverd of a stone dead child, with the tryal of the two searchers that were her confederates : and all other considerable transactions there, with the number of those condemned to die, burnt in the hand, to be transported and whipt. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, at a sessions there held on the st and d of june, being a true relation of the tryal and condemnation of the grand highway-man that robbed the ministers near uxbridg : with the tryal of the midwife for pretending to be deliverd of a stone dead child, with the tryal of the two searchers that were her confederates : and all other considerable transactions there, with the number of those condemned to die, burnt in the hand, to be transported and whipt. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) [ ], p. printed for d.m., london : . 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ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england. crime -- england. criminals -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly at a sessions there held on the st . and d . of june . being a true relation of the tryal and condemnation of the grand highway-man that robbed the ministers near vxbridg . with the tryal of the midwife for pretending to be deliverd of a stone dead child , with the tryal of the two searchers that were her confederates . and all other considerable transactions there , with the number of those condemned to die , burnt in the hand , to be transported and whipt . with allowance . ro. l'estrange . london : printed for d. m. . a narrative of the proceedings at the sessions in the old-baily , june the st . . the first tryal was of a young fellow that on the . of may last came early in the morning to drink with one of his acquaintance , and afterwards the same forenoon came again all alone by himself , call'd for a pot of drink and must needs have a cup to drink out of , they brought him a silver beaker valued at shillings , he pretended to wait for his friend , lingered away sometime , but at last spying an opportunity when the maid of the house was gone into the stables , stole the plate and left his reckoning to pay , he made severall slight ridiculous excuses , as that he was drunk , that his friend came and took it away , &c. but confessed he himself offered the plate to sale , and thereupon was found guilty . the next was a pickpocket who on the . of may seeing a young maiden dancing with the milkwoman made shift to steal a box and shillings . pence in money out of her pocket , and according to method , forthwith delivered it to a boy his confederate , who immediately ran away and is not yet taken . but our young practitioner was not so much mr. of art as to perform the exploit clerely , for he was both perceived by the girl , diving in her pocket and seen by another deliver away the prize , so that he was found guilty . a young girl of st. giles cripplegate parish was indicted for stealing at several times ounces of their silver plate , she very sorrowfully confest the fact , and declared that apple women that received it of her prompted and encouraged her to it saying , 't is a good girl get some more , the jury found that value under pence so that she s only like to be whipt , but her wicked deducers deserve a severer punishment . in middlesex was arraigned a highway-man formerly as he pretended belonging to the guard , but now prisoner to the fleet , but being not in execution upon bail had favour or i know not how , got his liberty , which he made this ill use of , viz. having got a confederate not yet taken being both well mounted about miles on this side vxbridge between and a clock in the evening they happened upon ministers , of whom one had a man with a sword by his side they had vizor-masks on their faces , and riding by cryed good-night sirs but forthwith turned back and one setting a pistol to the foremost ministers breast dam ye deliver your money was the word , the parsons being both unarmed and by their office ambassadors of peace . answer'd very complyingly assuring them they had but very little money but the servingman being a sturdy fellow forthwith drew his sword , which the highway men perceiving rode up to him , and a fierce conflict began between them for almost a quarter of an hour the fellow driving them before them attempted to shoot him , but their pistols did not go off ; at last they rid away about a furlong fitted up their pistols , and so came down again ; one of them skirmishes the man , whilst the other ransacks the master and his fellow traveller . from one they took six shillings , or thereabouts ; from the other , only some silver halfted knives , a silver box , &c. for in the mean time they had both conveyed away what money considerable they had about them : then both attaqu'd the servingman , and no intrea●ies wou●● serve but they would kill him ; he had 〈◊〉 one groat about him , which he shewed , telling them if they could get it they should have it . at last being wearied , and there being two of them which put him hard to it : his master ve●y generously , rather than so stout a fellow should lose his life , to hazard his own , and thereupon alighting on a sudden , catches one of the thieves and puls him almost from his horse , holding him so , that he was forc'd to cry out , and quickly fell down , where the servant gave him two or three wounds . his fellow rogue seeing this , basely ( for there is a kind of gallantry even amongst some villains ) leaves him , and provides for his own safety , who cannot yet be heard of ; but the other being disarm'd , was carried by his conquerors before a justice of peace , and thence committed to newgate . at bar he denied any intention of robbery , carried up himself very impudently , casts reflexions on his accusers , that his friend was drunk , and 't was only an accidental quarrel ; but the evidence was two plain and apparent . so that he was deservedly found guilty . a victualer in st. giles in the fields was arraigned for killing a woman by beating her when she came to pay restitution of her goods , which he had seized being her landlord , and at the same time cast her husband into goal for rent . it was proved , that he did fling her down and beat her , but she lived above a quarter of a year after , viz. from the of december to the . of may , that on candlemas-day she was delivered of a child , which lived or days . there was some discourse that she was afterward delivered of several parts of a dead child , but that did not sufficiently appear , nor any positive proof that she died of this beating , but rather circumstances to the contrary . upon all which , after many witnesses heard on his behalf , the prisoner was acquitted . after this was the tryal of a midwife of the parish of st. giles cripplegate , who was indicted by her self , and immediately after two very aged poor women being searchers towards wapping indicted joyntly for murdering a certain male child by choaking the same with their hands , &c. some account has already been given in print of this business , but very false and imperfect , upon full evidence it appeared only to be thus . this midwife whether to satisfie her husband ( as she now alleadges ) who was very impatient to have a child , or whether it were to preserve her credit in her imploy which she thought somwhat prejudiced by the imputation of barrenness , i cannot say , but so it was she resolved to pretend to have a child , in order hereunto by wearing a small pillow , &c. she had perswaded many of her neighbors that she was great , and about a week before her pretended labour enquired very earnestly of a poor woman if she could not help her to a young child as soon almost as born , either alive or dead , for says she there is a lady whose husband will not live with her because she never had a child , and he is now in the country and if i could get a child , i should do a good office in rendering love between them , and get something my self , but this woman as she now swore , refused not knowing how to assist her ; whereupon it seems she applyed her self to the two searchers of whitechappel , who having gratified her extravagant desires , on the . of april our midwife pretends to fall in labour , but would not let any of the women touch her ; and having dismist all save one in the chamber , when she was got to bed , pretending great pains , her friend offering to put her hands into the bed for better satisfying her self of her condition , she cried out murder ! murder ! which raising a further suspicion in the woman , she did at last take out of the bed a cold naked dead child , which had , as appeared , been wrapt up in a cloth , and seemed to have been a day or two old ; whereupon she told the prisoner this could be none of her child , who wickedly replyed with a horrid curse and imprecation on her self , if it were not her own child , born of her own body : however neighbours being called , several sober matrons now deposed , that having searched her , they were confident she had no child at all , and that this was some other persons child , &c. the prisoner being demande where she had the child , declared of the two searchers , which they being called to the bar acknowledged , and that they brought it to her the same day , and had s. being promised l. more : that they had it on saltpeter bank. the mother appeared in court , and her midwife , who testified it to be still born , and that they coming to search it , and seeing her a very poor woman , told her they would save her the charge of a burial , &c. but the mother denyed she had any money for it : upon full examination of all which no suspicion of murder appearing , but only a strange extravagant humour , both the midwife and two searchers were by the jury brought in not guilty of the several indictments whereof they stood charged . a gentleman indicted as accessary to the killing of a man in st. margarets westminster , on the of august , in the year of the raign of our soveraign lord king charles the second , on the whole matter it appearing that there was no prepensed malice ; there could be nothing but accessary to manslaughter be charged upon him . a person of white chappel was arraigned for murdering another . man with an half-pike , the case appeared to be thus a quarrel arising between the prisoner and his wife , and he pursuing her to beat her ; a certain tub-man going by , concern'd himself so far as to expostulate with the husband enquiring why he so much abused his wife ▪ whereupon the now prisoner in a rage taking in his hand an half pike run at the said tub-man , and by an unlucky pass kil'd him upon the place , several other petty circumstances there were which we here think not necessary to mention , on consideration of all circumstances he was found guilty only of man-slaughter . a woman for clipping , after long examination was not found guilty . a young man arraigned for betraying the trust reposed in him by his master and defrauding him of certain pieces of plate , contrary to the form of the statute , was found guilty according to the act , the sum charged was about pound . there are two men and a woman condemn'd to die , eight burnt in the hand , and seven to be whipt . finis . the tryal and condemnation of edw. fitz-harris, esq., for high treason at the barr of the court of king's bench, at westminster, on thursday the th of june, in trinity term, : as also the tryal and condemnation of dr. oliver plunket, titular primate of ireland, for high treason ... fitzharris, edward, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and condemnation of edw. fitz-harris, esq., for high treason at the barr of the court of king's bench, at westminster, on thursday the th of june, in trinity term, : as also the tryal and condemnation of dr. oliver plunket, titular primate of ireland, for high treason ... fitzharris, edward, ?- . england and wales. court of king's bench. [ ], , [ ] p. printed for francis tyton and thomas basset ..., london : . reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng plunket, oliver, -- saint, - . trials (treason) -- england. popish plot, . great britain -- history -- charles ii, - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion i do appoint francis tyton , and thomas basset , to print the tryals of edward fitz-harris , and oliver plunket ; and that no others presume to print the same . fr. pemberton . the tryal and condemnation of edw. fitz-harris , esq for high-treason , at the barr of the court of king's bench , at westminster , on thursday the th of june , in trinity term , . as also the tryal and condemnation of d r oliver plunket , titular primate of ireland , for high-treason , at the barr of the court of king's bench , the same term. london , printed for francis tyton , and thomas basset , booksellers in fleetstreet . . trinity term car. . regis . on thursday . june . edward fitz-harris was brought to the barr of the court of kings-bench ; and the court being sate , proceeded thus . mr. thompson . my lord , i ●oved you the other day that before mr. fitz-harris tryal , he might give such evidence as he had to give against sir john arundel , and sir richard beiling , concerning the death of sir edmundbury godfrey , before he be convicted of treason ; and we understood that it was the direction of the court , that we might move it this morning before conviction , that he might declare upon oath here in court what he knows of that matter against those gentlemen : for after he is convicted , i believe it will be too late for us to think of it ; mr. godfrey hath a great deal of reason to desire what i now move , that his brothers murderers may be prosecuted , and we hope all the favour that can be granted in such a case , will be granted unto us ; for there has been a design of late set on foot to make it be believed that sir edmundbury godfrey murdered himself , notwithstanding that clear evidence that hath been already given of this matter , and notwithstanding that several persons have been convicted and attainted upon that evidence . so that these gentlemen think themselves obliged to prosecute this matter as far as they can , and begg of your lordship , that what can be done for them may : and particularly , that he may perfect his discovery against the two named at his last examination before the grand-jury , and that his examination about them may now be taken by the court. lord ch. justice . look you mr. thompson , that that you moved before , had some reason in it , that he might be examined , and give evidence to a grand-jury , and we told you he should ; but if there be never a grand-jury sworn , yet who can he give evidence to ? would you have us take his examination , and afterwards give it in evidence to the grand-jury ? mr. thompson . my lord , i only say then 't is our hard hap that he is not examined before a grand-jury . lord ch. justice . but do you think it is fit for you to move this ●ow ? mr. thompson . my lord , i understood it was permitted me by the court the other day to move again , and i move by the direction of my client , and i submit it to your lordship . lord ch. justice . you know it cannot be granted : go on and swear the jury . fitz-harris . my lord , i begg that my wife and solicitor may be by to help and assist my memory . lord ch. justice . let your wife be by you , if she please , and if you think 't is any advantage to you , with all our hear●s ; if she will , let her go down to you . cl. of crown . cryer make an o yes , whoever can inform , &c. mr. att. general . my lord , i know not what the effect of this may be ; if his wife be instructed to instruct him , that ought not to be permitted , with submission ; suppose she should come to prompt him ( and for certain she is well documentized ) that your lordship won't suffer . mr. ser. jeff. my lord , she comes prepared with papers in her hand . mrs. fitz-harris . i won't shew them without my lords permission . lord ch. justice . if she brings any papers that are drawn by council , prepared for him , without doubt 't is not to be allowed . mrs. fitz-harris . no , no , 't is only my own little memorandums . lord ch. justice . whatsoever is written by her husband , for help of his memory , in matter of fact , let her do it . fitz-har . my lord , i humbly begg my solicitor may be by me too . lord ch. just . we allow no solicitors in cases of high-treason . cl. of crown . edward fitz-harris , hold up thy hand ( which he did ) those good men which thou shalt hear called , and personally appear , &c. fitz-harris . my lord , i desire they may be distinctly named as they are in the pannel , that i may know how to make my challenges . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i must humbly offer it to your lordship● consideration for the precedents sake , whether any person can assist the prisoner as to matter of fact ? lord ch. just . yes , and 't is alwayes done to take notes for him , and to help his memory . mr. ser. jefferies . but my lord i would acquaint your lordship what is the thing we find in this case , here is a particular note given into the prisoner , of the jury , pray be sure to challenge such and such , and don 't challenge the rest : god-forbid but his memory should be help'd in matters of fact , as is usual in these cases , but no instructions ought to be given him sure . and my lord , the example will go a great way , and therefore we are in your lordships directions about this matter . fitz-harris . my lord , i hope 't is but just , for i have had all the disadvantages in the world. i have been kept clo●e prisoner , and have not been permitted to have any one come to me , to help me in my preparation for my tryal . mr. att. gen. my lord , i pray your judgment in point of law ▪ i doubt not you will do the king right , as well as the prisoner , i could not get a copy of the pannel , till last night about a clock ; ●ere is prepared a copy with crosses and marks who he should challenge and who not , and truly , my lord , since i had the pannel ▪ upon looking over it , i do find the sheriff hath returned three anabaptist preachers , and i know not how many fanaticks , and since there are such practices as we find in this case , we doubt there may be more , and therefore i pray she may be removed . mrs. fitz-harris . i will not be removed . fitz-harris . is it fit or reasonable for me that i should stand here without any help ? mr. att. gen. in case you be guilty of this , you deserve no great favour . mrs. fitz-harris . surely the court will never suffer the kings council to take away a mans life at this rate . lord ch. just . mrs. fitz-harris , you must give good words : and if you will not be modest , and civil , i promise you we will remove you presently . mrs. fitz-harris . if you do remove me , that is the worst you can do to me , what should i come here for without i may help my husband ? lord ch. just . if she do bring h●m instructions to except against such and such jury men , she does misbehave herself , and must be removed . mr. att. gen. this paper that we speak of is a copy of the pannel , and there are particular marks a great many . mr. sol. gen. a woman hath a very great priviledge to protect her husband , but i never yet knew that she had liberty to bring him instructions ready drawn . mrs. fitz-harris . my lord , the lady marquess of winchester did assist in the case of my lord stafford , and took notes , and gave him what papers she pleased . lord ch. just . sure 't is no such huge matter to let a man's wife stand by him , if she will demean her self handsomely and fairly . mr. att. gen. it is not , if that were all ; but when she comes with papers instructed , and with particular directions , that is the assigning him council in point of fact. lord ch. just . let her stand by her husband , if she be quiet : but if she be troublesome ▪ we shall soon remove her . fitz-harris . 't is impossible i should make my defence without her . mr. ser. jefferies . i see it is a perfect formal brief . mrs. fitz-harris . must he have nothing to help himself ? fitz-harris . in short the kings council would take my life away , without letting me make my defence . mr. att. gen. i desire not to take away any papers from him , if they be such as are permitted by law. mr. sol. gen. my lord , his innocency must make his defence , and nothing else . mr. ser. jeff. my lord , we are in your lordships judgment , whether you will allow these papers . lord ch. just . let us s●e the paper . fitz-harris . my lord , i will deliver them to my wife again . lord ch. just . let it be so . cl. of crown . call sir will. roberts ( who did not appear . ) sir michael heneage . sir michael heneage . my lord , i am so ill i cannot attend this cause . lord ch. just . we cannot excuse you sir michael , if there be not enough besides , 't is not in our power to excuse you . sir mich. heneage . i must suffer all things rather than lose my health . lord ch. just . well stand by till the rest are called . cl. of cro●n . sir will. gulston , nicholas rainton , charles vmphrevile ( they did not appear . ) john wildman . mr. att. gen. my lord , i desire he may be asked , before he be called to the book , whether he be a free-holder in middlesex . major wildman . i am a prosecutor of this person , for i was a parliament man in the last parliament , and i dare not appear , my lord , for fear of being questioned for breach of the priviledges of the commons . mr. att. gen. my lord , i pray he may answer that question , whether he be a free-holder in middlesex ? major wildman , i pray to be excused upon a very go●d reason ; i was one of them that voted the impeachment aga●●●t this man. mr. att. gen. are you a free-holder in middles●x , upon vour oath ? lord ch. just . look you major wildman , you are returned upon a pannel here , you have appeared , and your appearance is recorded ; you must answer such questions as are put to you , 't is not in your power to deny . major wildman . i begg the excuse of the court , i cannot serve upon this jury . lord ch. just . if you be no free-holder the law will excuse you . maj. wild. perhaps there may be some estates in my name , that may be free-holds , perhaps , i may be some trustee or the like . mr. att. gen. have you any free-hold in your own right in middlesex ? major wild. i don't know that i have ; if it be in the right of another or as trustee , i take not that to be a free-hold . cl. of crown . call thomas johnson . mrs. fitz-harris . let him be sworn , there is no exception against him . lord ch. just . hold your peace , or you go out of court if you talk again . mrs. fitz-har . i do not say any thing that is any harm , my lord. cl. of crown . swear tho. johnson , you shall well and truly try , &c. fitz-harris . my lord , i pray the clerk may not skip over the names as they are returned . cl. of crown . sir , i call every one as they are in the pannel , and don't do me wrong . lord ch. just . it may be he does not call them as they are mentioned and set down in the pannel , for all have not appeared ; but calls those only whose appearance is recorded . cl. of crown . i have called them as they are here set down . lord ch. just . well let them all be called for , may be they will appear now that did not appear before . cl. of crown . maximilan beard . mr. beard . my lord , i desire to be excused , i am very infirm and very ancient , threescore and fifteen years of age at least . lord ch. just . why did the sheriff return you , if you be of that age , you should be put out of the free-holders book ; but stay you are here impannel'd , and have appear'd , if there be enough we will excuse you . mr. just . jones . he ought to have witnesses of his age , and if he would not have appeared , he might have had a writ of priviledge for his discharge in regard of his age . lord ch. just . well we will set him by , if there be enough besides we will spare him . cl. of crown . isaac honywood , ( he did not appear ) lucy knig●tley , who ( was sworn . ) henry baker . mr. att. gen. my lord , i challenge him for the king. fitz-harris . my lord , why should he challenge him ? i desire to know the law , whether the foremen should not try the challenge , and not the court or the council . mr. ser. maynard . if the king challenge , he hath time to shew cause till the pannel be gone through ; the law will have the minus suspecti , but yet if there want any , the king must shew good cause . cl. of crown . edward probyn . mr. att. gen. i challenge him for the king. cl. of crown . edward wilford ( was sworn ) fitz-harris . my lord , must not mr. attorney shew his caus● now ? lord ch. just . look you mr. fitz-harris , either side may take their exception to any man , but the cause need not be shewn till the pannel is gone through , or the rest of the jurors challenged . cl. of crown . john kent of stepney . mr. kent . my lord , i am no free-holder . lord ch. just . then you cannot be sworn here upon this jury . cl. of crown . john wilmore . mr. att. gen. we challenge him for the king. fitz-harris . for what cause ? mr. ser. jeff. we will shew you reasons hereafter . cl. of crown . alexander hose● ( was sworn ) giles shute . mr. att. gen. are you a free-holder sir ? mr. shute . no. mr. att. gen. mr. whitaker is got near him , and he tells him what he is to do , my lord. fitz-harris . here is the lieutenant of the tower between me and him . mr. ser. jeff. but the barr is no fit place for mr. whitaker , ●e is not yet called to the barr. cl. of crown . martin james . mr. att. gen. are you a free-holder sir ? mr. james . yes . mr. att. gen. then swear him . ( which was done ) . cl. of crown . nathanael grantham . mr. att. gen. are you a free-holder sir ? mr. grantham . no. cl. of crown . henry beiling . mr. att. gen. are you a free-holder sir ? mr. beiling . yes . mr. fitz-harris . then i challenge him . cl. of crown . benjamin denis . mr. att. gen. is he a free-holder ? mr. denis . no. mr. att. gen. my lord , you ●●e what pra●●ices here are , most of the jury are no free-holders . cl. of crown . john pre●●on . ( did not appear ) john viner of white-chappel . mr. att. gen. he hath fetch'd them from all the corners of the town here , yet not all of them free-holders neither . cl. of crown . swear mr. viner ( which was done ) william withers ( was sworn ) william cleave ( sworn ) thomas goff ( sworn ) abraha● graves . mr. att. gen. ask him , is he a free-holder ? mr. graves . no. cl. of crown . henry jones . mr. att. gen. is he a free-holder ? mr. jones . no. cl. of crown . ralp● farr . mr. att. gen. ask him the same question . cryer . are you a free-holder sir ? mr. fa●r . yes . cl. of crown . then swear him ( which was done ) samuel freebody . mr. att. gen. are you a free-holder sir ? freebody . yes . mr. att. gen. then swear him ( which was done . ) cl. of crown . gilbert vrwin of covent-garden ( did not appear . ) edward watts of westmi●ster . mr. att. gen. are you a free-holder sir ? watts . yes . mr. att. gen. then we challenge you for the king. mr. att. gen. john brads●aw of holborn ( did not appear ) isaac heath of wapping ( no free-holder ) edward hutchins of westmi●s●er . mr. att. gen. we challenge him for the king. cl. of crown . john lo●kier of westminster . mr. att. gen. are you a free-holder ? mr. lockier . yes . mr. att. gen. then swear him . cl. of crown . count these . thomas johnson . cryer . one , &c. the names of the sworn are these ▪ thomas johnson . lucy knightly . edward wilford . alexander hosey . martin james . john vi●er . william withers . william cleave . thomas go●●e . ralph farr . samuel freebody and john lockier . cl , of crown . edward fitz-harris hold up thy hand . gentlemen you that are sworn look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his charge . fitz-harris . my lord , i humbly begg ●en , ink and paper . lord ch. just . let him have pen , ink and paper . cl. of crown . you shall have them presently ( which were given him . ) he stands indicted by the name of edward fitz-harris , late of the parish of st. martin in the fields , in the county of middlesex , gent. for that he as a false traitor against the most illustrious , and most excellent prince our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god king of england , scotland , france and ireland , his natural lord , not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil ; the love , and true , due , and natural obedience , which a true and faithful subject of our said soveraign lord the king , towards him our said soveraign lord the king , should and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing ; and with all his might intending the peace and common tranquility within this kingdom of england to disturb , and w●r and rebellion against our said soveraign lord the king to stir up and move , and the government of our said soveraign lord the king , within this kingdom of england to subvert , and our said soveraign lord the king from the title , honour and regal name of the imperial crown of his kingdom of england to depose and deprive , and our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring , and put the . day of february in the . year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second , now king of england , &c. and divers other days and times , as well before as after at the parish of st. martin in the fields in the county of middlesex traiterously did compass , imagin and intend the killing , death , and final destructon of our said soveraign lord the king , and the ancient government of this his kingdom to change and alter and wholly to subvert , and him our said soveraign lord the king that now is , from the title honour and regal name of the imperial crown of his kingdom of england to depose and deprive , and war and rebellion against our said soveraign lord the king to stir up and levy within this kingdom of england . and his said wicked treasons and traiterous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid to fulfil and perfect , he the said edward fitz-harris , as a false traitor , together with one emund everard a subject of our said soveraign lord the king , did then and there traiterously assemble himself , meet and consult , and thesame his treasons and traiterous compassings , imaginations and purposes thenand there to the said edmund everard in the hearing of diverse other subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , openly , maliciously , traiterously and advisedly speaking , did publish and declare ; and to perswade and induce the said edmund everard to be aiding and assisting in his said traiterous compassings , imaginations and purposes , he the said edward fitz-harris as a false traitor , maliciously , advisedly and traiterously to the said edmund everard a great reward then and there did offer , and promise to procure ; and for the further compleating of his treasons aforesaid , and to incite the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king as one man to rise , and open rebellion and insurrection within this kingdom of england to raise against our said soveraign lord the king ; and our said soveraign lord the king from the title , honour and regal name of the imperial crown of his kingdom of england to cast down and depose , he the said edward fitz-harris as a false traitor , a certain most wicked and traiterous libel , the title of which is in these english words following , the true english man speaking plain english , traiterously , maliciously and advisedly , in writing to be made and expressed , did then and there cause , procure and publish . in which said libel the said most wicked treasons , and traiterous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid of him the said edward fitz-harris , to excite and perswade the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king of this kingdom of england against our said soveraign lord the king to rise and rebel , and our said soveraign lord the king from the style , honour , and regal name of the imperial crown of this his kingdom of england to deprive and depose , in writing are expressed and declared amongst other things as followeth : if james ( meaning james duke of york , the brother of our said soveraign lord the king ) be conscious and guilty , ch s ( meaning charles the second now king of england ) is so too , believe me ( meaning himself the said edward fitz-harris ) both these ( meaning our said soveraign lord the king , and the said james duke of york ) are brethren in iniquity , they ( meaning our said soveraign lord the king and james duke of york ) are in confederacy with pope and french , to introduce popery and arbitrary government as their actions ( meaning the actions of our said soveraign lord the king and james duke of york ) demonstrate . the parliaments magna charta and liberty of the subject are as heavy yokes they 'd as willingly cast off , for to make themselves ( meaning our said soveraign lord the king and the said duke of york ) as absolute as their brother of france . and if this can be proved to be their aim ( meaning our said soveraign lord the king , and the aforesaid duke of york ) and main endeavour , why should not every true britain be a quaker thus far , and let the english spirit be up and move us ( meaning the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king of this kingdom of england ) all as one man to self defence ? nay and if need be to open action , and fling off these intolerable riders ? ( meaning our said soveraign lord the king and the said duke of york ) and in another place in the said most wicked traiterous lib●l were contained amongst other things , these false seditio●s and traiterous sentences in these english words following . j and c. ( meaning the said charles our soveraign lord the king , and his said brother james duke of york ) both brethren in iniquity , corrupt both in root and ●ranch , as you ( meaning the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king ) have seen they ( meaning our said soveraign lord the king and the said duke of york ) study but to enslave you ( meaning the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king ) to a romish and french-like yoke . is it not plain ? have you ( meaning the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king ) not eyes , sense or feeling ? where is that old english noble spirit ? are you ( meaning the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king ) become french asses to suffer any load to be laid upon you ? and if you ( meaning the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king ) can get no remedy from this next parliament , as certainly you ( meaning again the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king ) will not ; and that the k. ( meaning our said soveraign lord the king that now is ) repents not , complies not with their advice , then up all ( meaning the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king ) as one man. o brave english men ! look to your own defence ere it be too late , rouze up your spirits . and in another place in the said most wicked and traiterous libel are contained amongst other things , these false seditious and trait●rous sentences in these english words following , to wit : i. ( meaning himself the said edward fitz-harris ) will only add that as it is the undoubted right of parliaments to make a law against a popish successor , who would prove destructive to our laws and liberties ; so it is their undoubted right to dethrone any possessor that follows evil ounsellors to the destruction of our government , ( meaning the government of this kingdom of england . ) and in another place in the said traiterous libel are contained these english words following : then let all ( meaning the subjects of our said soveraign lord the k●ng that now is ) be ready , then let the city of london stand by the parliament with offers of any money for the maintaining of their liberties and religion in any extream way , if parliamentary courses be not complied with by the king ; ( meaning our said soveraign lord the king ) against the duty of his allegiance , and against the peace of our said soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , &c. and against the form of the statute in this case made and provided upon this indictment . upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto hath pleaded not ▪ guilty ; and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and his country , which country you are , &c. cryer make proclamation . o yes if any one will give evidence , &c. mr. heath . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , this is an indictment of high-treason against edward fitz-harris the prisoner at the barr , and the indictment sets forth , that the . of february , in the year of the king at st. martins in the fields , he did compass and imagin the death of the king , and to raise war and rebellion within the kingdom . and the indictment does set forth , that for the accomplishment of this , he did meet and assemble with one edmund everard , and several others , and did discover this his traiterous purpose to the said everard , and did perswade him to aid and assist therein ; and offered him great rewards if he would so do . it further sets forth , that for the further perfecting of this treasonable imagination of the said edward fitz-harris , he did frame and make a treasonable libel , and the title of the libel is the true english-man speaking plain english ; and in that treasonable libel , are these treasonable words contained , if james be guilty ( meaning the duke of york ) charles ( meaning the king ) is so too , &c. and the several words , that have been read to you in this indictment , are contained in the said libel , which i shall not repeat . to this indictment he hath pleaded , not guilty ; if we prove it upon him you are to find him guilty . mr. ser. maynard . may it please your lordship , truly 't is a sad thing to consider how many have been found guilty of plotting against the king , but none have gone so far as the prisoner at the barr ; for they designed only his death , but this person would have carried on his treasons by a means to slander him while he was alive , and thereby to excite the people to such a rebellion as you have heard . i shall add no further words , the thing is not aggravatable , 't is so great an offence in it self ; but we will call our witnesses , and go to our proof . mr. attorney . general . my lord , yesterday you had here the primate of ireland , who was found guilty , for a notable high-treason in ireland : you have now this day before you one of his emissaries , who is come over into england , and who has here committed one of the most execrable treasons that ever was brought into a court of justice ; i must needs say that it will appear to all the auditors this day , that here is the highest improvement of the popish plot , and aggravated with such circumstances as shew they have out done themselves in it . hitherto those cases that have been brought into judgment before you , have been the attempts upon the life of the king , in instances either of shooting , stabbing or poysoning : i say hitherto they have gone no further than to practise these things , and that by popish hands , they have kept the plot amongst themselves ; but now they have gone one step further , that is , by attemping to poyson all the protestants of england , as much as in them ●yes , that they should by their own hands destroy one another , and their lawful prince , that is the treason now before you , and i take it with submission , they can go no further . for 't is impossible to arise to a higher p●ece of malice and villany than to set the p●oples hearts against their prince , and to set them together by the eares one against another . this we shall prove in the course of our evidence , to be the design of the prisoner at the barr. the general design hath been opened to you out of the indictment , to kill and destroy the king , and to depose him from his government ; and we shall charge him with all those several overt acts , which i shall open to you : first several meetings to consult about this matter at grays-inn and several other places , which my lord , i think there is no question to be made , but is an overt ▪ act to make high-treason we shall go further , and shew that these designes he had to depose the king , and raise his people against him , he does declare openly to mr. everard , which is another overt-act within the new statute . we shall my lord , go further yet , and prove the great rewards he hath offered to mr. everard for joyning with him , and being assisting to him in this affair , part in ready mony , and part in annual pension . and there your lordship will find where the spring is , from whence all these mischiefs arise , some foreign power , but the papists , the priests are at the bottom of it , they are the persons that set him on , and these must draw in a great person beyond sea , who must reward this gentlemen for being a partner in this plot. and we shall prove some mony paid in hand . but then my lord , that which was the effect of this consult , is the framing this pernicious libel , for so give me leave to call it . my lord , the indictment is modest , but when you come to hear the libel it self read , you will find it so ; and it was not prudence , that so vile a thing should appear upon record . and truly i believe in a protestant kingdom 't is the first attempt of this nature that ever was : for my lord , it is to defame the whole royal family , 't is to stain their blood , and to make them vile in the sight of the whole kingdom , and of all posterity . my lord , this libel in its particulars chargeth that most excellent and innocent person , our late and never to be forgoten soveraign king charles the first , to be the author of the irish rebellion ; it charges our present prince with the exercise of arbitrary government , to be a papist , to be a person that deprives his subjects of all manner of liberty , and property ; in express terms it charges him with this , than which nothing can be more false , for there is none of his subjects , i think , but must say that our most gracious prince , for the time he hath reigned may vie with the best . years of any of his predecessours for the preserving the liberty and property of the people , for giving us p●ace and plenty all our time , for the permitting and securing to them the free current of the law , and for securing their civil and r●ligious rights . my lord , when we have gone through the evidence about the contexture , and this libel is read and produced , we shall prove the design of it , and how it was framed , and the eyes of the world will be opened , and you will see that this was no intention , no engine framed to trapan , or ensnare any private person , or as it was secretly bruited abroad , to be put in such mens pockets ; but a piece of the greatest machivilian policy that ever was invented , and prepared for a publick press , as a catholick poyson to infect all the kings subjects , and excite them one against another . and we shall prove that this person in the several methods that i have open'd , hath proceeded to accomplish his traiterous de●●gns of dethroning the king : nay he hath said , 't is resolved among them now that nothing else will do it , but the poysoning the hearts of the people with hatred to their king , and malice against one anot●er . and when we have proved the matter fully , through all the parts , we must leave it to the jury , who i question not will do themselves , and all other protestants right , as well as their prince ; we shall now go to our evidence , and first we will call mr. everard ; but my lord , i would only first observe to you , that this gentleman mr. fitz-harris , and mr. everard , were both imployed in the french kings service , and there acquainted together : mr. everard came early off , and became a protestant , leaving the french kings service , because he found their several plots and designs upon england . then comes mr. fitz-harris to him , and because he looked upon mr. edverard , not to be rewarded according to his merits , invites him over , with telling him those things that the witness himself will tell you , back again to the french interest . then mr. everard was sworn . fitz-harris . look me in the face , mr. everard . mr. everard . i will sir. mr. att. gen. will you acquaint my lord , and the jury how you came first acquainted with the prisoner , and then tell the several passages between you . mr. sol. gen. tell your whole knowledge of this matter . mr. everard . my lord , i came acquainted with mr. fitz-harris beyond seas , when we both were in the french kings service , and upon conference with him of late , especially about the beginning of february last , he renewed his acquaintance , though at several times before we had several discourses , whereof i did not take much notice ; but in those meetings in february last , and in those visits he paid me then , we had several discourses tending to represent the disadvantages , and sufferings i fustained for adhereing to the protestant , and english interest ; and besides comparing in the other ballance , what advantages i might expect if i would re-ingratiate my self into their interest . lord ch. just . what interest ? mr. everard . the french , and the popish interest . and there was an opportunity in my hands , wherein i might be servicable to my self and others ; and he told me there were several persons amongst whom were some parliament men , that did adhere to the french interest , and gave an account to the french ambassador of every daies proceedings ; and as i was looked upon to be the author of a kind of pamphlet , that was called an answer to the kings declaration , concerning the duke of monmouth , therefore i should be fit to serve them , especially to make such another pamphlet to reflect upon the king , and alienate him from his people , and his people from him . whereupon i told him i would do any thing that was for my true interest , but i did conceive with my self , that that was none of it . he appointed a time when we should meet again , but i sent him a note , i could not meet possibly that day , which was munday , as i remember the . of februrary : however he was impatient , and came to me and told me he would give me heads and instructions tending to that pamphlet i was to write , to scandalize the king , and r●se a rebellion and alienate the hearts of the kingdom , and set the people together by the ears . upon this he gave me some heads by word of mouth : assoon as i parted from him , i met with one mr. savile of lincolns-inn , and assoon as i met with him i acquainted him with what was passed , and told him i wished rather than l . i had met him sooner , half an hour before : why what is the occasion saies he ? why said i , there is a person that hath had such and such discourse with me , and one of his main errands amongst others , is for me to write a scandalous libel reflecting upon his majesty , and the goverment . and upon this i said , mr. savile , i shall not confer with him any further , unless i have some body by to witness what he saies , he speaks most commonly french , and sometimes english ; and therefore it must be one who understands both the tongues well . so we went into the city together that afternoon to one mr. crows , who is a silkman in queen-street ; said we sir , you are a moderate impartial man , and understand french , we desire you will be present to over-hear some proposals that are made to me tending to set our country together by the ears , and he comes from a popish party . mr. crow said he would be willing to undertake any thing to serve the protestant english interest , but he would not undertake to speak french so well as to be able to understand all nice passages , and words that might be proposed . and then mr. savile and i went to mr. smith a durham gentleman , and made him the same proposal , i had made to mr. crow , desiring him that he would come and over-hear our discourse , and i would place him in a fit place . mr. smith assented to the propositions , and said he would . mr. smith asked me what day and time we were to meet ; i told him to morrow at or a clock at night at my chamber in graies-inn ; but further he said we must have other witnesses , for one witness would not be sufficient ; so we went to the exchange coffee house , and there we met with sir william waller , to whom we made the same proposal , that since we must have some that understood french and keep the thing secret , till it were time to have it come out , he would please to undertake it : sir william waller promised to come , but failed that first meeting , which was to be on the tuesday ; then we went to another french merchant , who was proposed by mr. savile , but he was not within ; so then we must rely upon one witness for that meeting . mr. fitz-harris was to meet me about a clock at my chamber in graies-inn , where mr. smith and mr. savile were to meet likewise , and they came first to the tavern just at the corner of fullers rents , which hath a prospect into the court : and from thence i saw mr. fitz-harris in the court pointing to another gentleman that was with him , up to my chamber , and he was walking suspitiously up and down . then i went out of the tavern , and came up to my chamber , and after a little while captain fitz-harris came up to my room , i placed him in another room , where my wife was , and shut the door to whilst i sent word to mr. smith to come into the outer room , and shut himself into my closet . there was mr. smith in the closet , and there was an hole or two for the purpose made through both the planks of the boards , and the hanging ▪ but the hangings hung over the hole that it might not be discerned by mr. fitz-harris , and he could raise it and then see who was in the room and hear their words ; for i placed my chair towards the closet which had an angle outwards , and now and then i did stand against the whole , and now and then sate to give mr. smith advantage , and to give mr. fitz-harris no suspition . when we were so placed mr. fitz-harris asked me what i had done as to the thing proposed , this libel that i was to draw up ; i said i was busie , and had not been able to finish it , but here are some heads of it said i , and shewed him half a dozen lines drawn up together ; and when i had read them , sir said i , is this your mind ? yes said he , but i must add much more than this is to it . then mr. fitz-harris proceeded to give me further instructions ; and so repeated what instructions he had given me before , that the king and all the royal family must be traduced to be popishly , and arbitrarily inclined from the beginning , that king charles the first especially had an hand in the irish rebellion , and that likewise king charles the second , that now is , did countenance the same , as did appear by bis promoting those very officers that were in the irish rebellion , fitz-girald , fitz-patrick , and mont-garrat , which should be named in the libel . besides that , the act made at the kings coming in , forbidding any to call the king papist , was meerly to stop peoples mouths that they should not call him a papist , when he should incline to further popery , and did intend by his actions so to do . and besides his adhering so closely to the duke of yorks interest , was to be another argument of it , his hindering the d. of york from coming to his tryal , and to be proceeded against by the parliament , and hindering the officers that were put in by the d. of york , from being cast out : another argument was because those privy counsellors and justices of the peace , that did adhere to the protestant interest were turned out of all places of trust ; and besides he said it did appear to the people consequently , that the king was conscious to himself , that he was as guilty as his brother , and was as much a papist as his brother , and it was in the peoples power as well to depose a present popish possessor , as a popish successor , and that the people must be stirred up against him , and incouraged to blow the trumpet , and especially that the city , and common council must be incouraged to stand by the parliament ; and seeing the king was such that no hopes was to be had of the parliament at oxon , they were bound to provide for themselves , and to advance some hundreds or thousands of pounds to the parliament to settle the protestant religion without the king , if parliamentary waies would not succeed . these were some of the instructions . mr. att. gen. did he say any thing that day about a reward you should have ? mr. everard . he spake in the general about a reward , but he spoke more fully to that the day after ; he did not then come so much to particulars , then some part of those instructions i writ in my table book which is to be produced here , and others of them in another scrole of paper . he then desired to know of me when the scheme of this thing would be ready ; said i , you may come to morrow ; i will saies he , come about or a clock in the evening . in the mean time i writ a letter to sir william waller in french , which i sent by a porter , and therein i said , sir you have missed a great opportunity of rendring a great service to the king , by not coming to see me when you were expected ; for the person , the french emissary whom i spoke of to you , hath proposed very scandalous s●ditious things to be written , and there fore i desire you not to fail , as you tender the kings interest , to come to my chamber at a clock at night . sir william waller received my letter and came thither accordingly , i placed sir william waller in another room , and i placed my own chair at a narrow table near the place where sir william waller was , and there through the wainscot and hangings , we made a slit , whereby sir william waller might see into the next room where mr. fitz-harris and i sate ; but before i placed him there i shewed sir william waller two copies of the instructions for the libel drawn up : said i , sir , here are copies which are both the same , and i desire you to counter mark them , that you may know them again , and thereby see what alteration will be made ; for here are no blots now , and by that you will find the alteration . sir w●ll●am waller while my back was turned , counter marked those copies . i went into the next room , and i had not been long there , but mr. fitz-harris came in , i placed the table near the alcove , where sir william waller was within his hearing and seeing . mr. fitz-harris asked me what i had done in the business : sir said i , here are copies of it , pray will you see how you like it . so he took one and i took the other . mr. ser. jeff. my lord i must interrupt this gentleman , for i see they continue to give the prisoner papers . fitz-harris . 't is only a paper of the names of my witnesses . lord ch. just . go on sir. mr. everard . my lord , captain fitz-harris did read one copy of this pamphlet and did amend it , he did add somethings and struck out other things , then said i is this sir according to your liking ? yes , saies he , but i must add something for it is not yet full enough ; but saies he this must be fair copyed out ; for 't is not fit for the french embassadors confessor to read , who should present it to the embassador . upon this i told him it should be done against the next day , but in the mean time i told him , sir , these are very treasonable things , and this a very treasonable project : oh , said he the more treasonable the better , and that will do the effect better . what is that sir said i ? that is saies he , to set these people together by the ears , and keep them clashing , and whilst they are so in clashing , and mistrusting one another , the french shall gain flanders ▪ and then said he , we shall make no bones to gain england too . but sir said i , you spoke of some recompence for me , what shall i have for venturing this ? why saies he after this libel is delivered up , and that hath gotten you their confidence that you are trusty , then i w●ll gain the french con●essor who is very shy ▪ and may so well be , because 〈◊〉 of the confessors of an embassador hath been already trapann'd 〈…〉 an occasion . therefore he is very wary , but he must have 〈…〉 under your hand , which he shall have by this libel ; and 〈…〉 daies you shall have guinies , and a monthly pension ▪ 〈…〉 some thousandof crowns , for my master the french 〈…〉 as to these things : the spanish ambassador is so very 〈…〉 a man , that he cannot keep a table ; but sai●●e , you 〈…〉 rewarded by the french king , and be not discouraged by the 〈…〉 for i am in as great danger as you . after some such instructions , and ●●couragements , that mr. fitz-harris gave to go on in the wo●k , he departed , and i cannot well call any thing to mind of more particulars , but upon questions asked me perhaps i may . but then that time , or the next time , captain fit● ▪ h●rris gave me half a sheet of paper , for i told him i may chance to forget part of your instructions , therefore pray wri●e what is in your own mind , and in that paper he writ down that it was in the peoples power to depose a popish possessor , as it was to oppose a popish successor , and certain other treasonable heads ; the half sheet of paper is to be produced in court , under his own hand , which he hath confessed besides other treasonable instructions , that he gave me by word of mouth : but he at that time departed , and came the next day to have a copy of the treasonable libel writ out fair , and promised me ●o meet me at the boarded house , where we usually met in holborn at mr. fashions , and i did there come and deliver him a copy of this treasonable libel , and he said i should hear in a few daies from him , and should have a recompence , and this should be , but as an entrance business ; for i should be brought into the cabal , where several protestants , and parliament men came to give an accompt to the ambassador , how things were transacted , but to morrow said he , i cannot go to receive the libel back again , for i am to go to knights-bridge . fitz-harris . where there ? mr. everard . to my lord howards , for said he , you have seen his son often with me , my lord howard is very civil to me , he was my fathers lawyer . mr. att. gen. will you ask him any questions mr. fitz-harris ? fitz-harris . did you write this libel ? mr. everard . yes , by your instructions i did . fitz-harris . do you believe i had any trayterous intention in it ? mr. everard . yes . mr. serj. jefferies . you said the more treason the better , mr. fitz-harris . fitz-harris . were you put upon this to trapan others ? mr. att. gen. 't is no trapanning to ask them to come , and hear you give him those instructions sure . fitz-harris . but i ask him this question , mr. attorney , was he put upon it to trapan others ? mr. everard . can you mention any person that i was to trapan ? fitz-harris . were you put upon it to trapan the protestant lords , and the house of commons ? mr. everard . no , i was not . fitz-harris . is this the same libel that was read in the house of commons upon which i was impeached ? mr. everard . yes , i believe , mr. fitz-harris , it was . mr. att. gen. mr. everard , because he puts you upon it , and to satisfie all the world , i ask you upon your oath , did any person whatsoever put you upon this to trapan other persons , or to put it into their pockets as 't is reported ? mr. everard . i was put upon it by none but mr. fitz-harris , of whom i asked what will be the use of this , said he we shall disperse them , we know how . mr. att. gen. did he tell you in what manner ? mr. everard . no , he did not tell how . mr. att. gen. to whom was it to be delivered ? mr. everard . i was to deliver it to fitz-harris , who was to deliver it to the french confessor , and it was to be drawn in the name of the non-conformists , and put upon them . mr. serj. jefferies . what religion is mr. fitz-harris of ? mr. everard . he was always looked upon to be a papist . fitz-harris . when did you see me at mass ? mr. att. gen. hath he not owned himself so ? mr. everard . he hath owned himself at several times to be a papist . mr. sol. gen. what did he say to you about your being a protestant , and what cause you had to turn to the popish relig●on . mr. everard . he said i was under great disadvantages , and had much loss by leaving them , i had better have adhered to the● interest still . he had this discourse with me at several meetings , and gave me several visits , some at my chamber , some at gray●●●nn walks , sometimes at the house with black posts in where we talk'd of several things . mrs. fitz-harris . i am sorry he kept such a rogue as you are company . l. c. j. officer take her away if she cann't hold her tongu● , and give better language . fitz-harris . she will speak no more my lord. l. c. j. stand still then , and be quiet . mr. att. gen. what was your discourse at the ale-house ? mr. everard . to give instructions to set the people together by the ears , and one most effectual means was by scandalizing , and libelling the government , and especially the king. mr. jones . did any body else assist you in drawing the libel ? mr. everard . there is at the latter end of the libel a paragraph that was taken out of another book , there was a scandalous libel that was brought by the woman that carries paper-books about , and out of that to make short work , and out of the character of a popish successor , in which he said were many things material , he would have some of the expressions of this libel taken ; so i copyed some of the queries out of that paper which was said to be a letter intercepted to roger l'strange , and that day that i was under examination before mr. secretary jenkins that libel lay before him upon his table . he asked me if i had seen that , i told him yes , for i had copyed in that paper that was the libel , those queries , and then said he here is a warrant to be given out against curtis for it . mr. serj. jefferies . after such time that you had carried him the copy that sir william had marked , and he amended it , did you shew it sir w●lliam w●ller presently . mr. everard . yes immediately , and i asked him , sir says i , is there any alteration , yes said he , i see alterations , and shew'd them one . do you know the difference of hands said i , yes said he i do , and suppose will give you an account of it . mr. johnson . my lord , i humbly beg mr. everard may be asked who those parliam●nt men were , that were to concur with the french ambassador in this design ? l. c. j. did he name any parliament men ? mr. everard . no he did not , he said i should know them hereafter . l. c. j. then he did not name any ? mr. everard . no , he did not . mr. att. gen. then swear mr. smith . ( which was done ) pray sir will you look about , and give an account what you know . mr. smith . will you have an account how it came first to my knowledge ? mr. att. gen. yes the whole , from the bottom to the top , from the beginning to the end . mr. smith . i remember about the th . or the th . of feb. either one or the other mr. everard , and one mr. savile came to my chamber , and told me the same design that mr. everard hath repeated before , and that there was an irish gent. an officer of the french kings army that was to manage the thing ; he was one that could speak french very well , and they desired me to be concerned in it because i understood french. upon this i told him i would willingly undertake such a business if i thought there were any convenient place in the room where i might hear , and see , undiscovered . after he had told me as he has before told your lordships , that it was to make a difference between the king and his people , and to misrepresent the king as i shall inform you by and by . i went to his chamber after we had spoke to mr. crow , who would not undertake to speak french so well as to be capable of understanding all ; but at last we met with sir w. w. who undertook the matter . i walked immediately after dinner to the chamber , and saw the conv●ni●ncies , and the next night we expected sir w. wa●●●r , but he not coming that night i went into the closet my self till ●i●●-harris came according to the appointment . when fitz-harris came there were two chairs set , one chair next the closet where i stood , and another opposite against me , that opposite against me was that where mr. fitz-harris set , and mr. everard was next clos● to me , and i looked out through the hole , and i heard there were some little discourses about the business in hand . at last mr. everard stands up , and goes to the side-board , and brings a peice of pap●r , about hal● a sheet as i think with him , and he read it , which was a seditious kind of paper which i shall tell you of by and by , and he asked him in french whether this were agreeable or no , to which the gent. answered it was well , but something must be added to it . upon this mr. everard took out his note-book , and read something therein , and then mr. everard desired him to instance what heads he would have more than were there , to which fitz-harris replied , that he would have him to represent the king as a papist , which might be demonstrated by several reasons ; first his ad●●ring to the duke of york , and peremptorily resolving to espouse that ●nte●est . the s●con● reason was the preferring such as were the dukes 〈◊〉 ●oth at sea and land , and keeping in office those that were p●●fe●r●d by the duke , known papists , and this was also another reaso● 〈◊〉 pro●e that head of the instructions , that the king after his resto●atio●●●ocured an act to be made , that it should be treason for any to call 〈◊〉 papist , and this was only that he might the better , and with the mor● ease introduce popery into england . he charged likewise king char●●s the first to be a promoter of the irish rebellion , and that charles the second further'd and approv'd it ; that is another instance . that the parliament at oxford was only a sham to delude the people , and that such a king was not to be trusted with such a people , n●●ther as to their lives , liberties , or religion but that the people must prov●de for themselves in time , and blow the trumpet boldly . another instance was , as it was the undoubted right of the people to make laws against , and to oppose a popish successor , so they might depose a popish possessor . to this effect was the substance of what was said . mr. att. gen. did he name a reward that mr. everard was to have ? mr. smith . there was a reward mention'd , but i don't remember any particulars . mr. att. gen. did he tell who set him on work ? mr. smith he said if they did but set england together by the ears the french would get flanders , and at length prevail here , and mr. everard should get an interest in the common council , and make it his business that they should make a kind of an address to the parliament , and promise to stand by them with their lives and fortunes in opposing popery , and arbitrary government , and if parliament-ways failed , to assist in another way ; and if the king hindred the d of yo●k to come to a legal tryal , that then they should take other courses . mr. att. gen. what did he desire from mr. everard , when he seemed to boggle at his instructions ? mr. smith . mr. everard said he would do these things , yet he was in great danger ; why says mr. fitz-harris , so am i and a great many more ; what other conference was betw●en them i know not , for i never saw them together after . mr. serj. jefferies . look you sir , is this the same person ? mr. smith . yes , i did know him to be the same person that night he was taken . l. c. j. you could see him where you were ? mr. smith . my lord , i saw clear enough , there was three candles lighted , and i was as near to him , as i am to your lordship . l. c. j. you were not in the room ? mr. smith . i was in a little closet close by . mr. att. gen. you know nothing of the paper of instructions ? mr. smith . i remember he told me of such an one , but i was not there the second night . sir fr. withins . mr. everard said they were treasonable things , what then said fitz-harris ? mr. smith . he said the more treason was in them the better . mr. serj. jefferies . and the particulars were to set the people together by the ears , and to bring in the french king. mr. smith . it is all one in terms . mr. serj. jefferies . how was it ? mr. smith . that the king and the people should be set at variance , then the french king would fall upon flanders and holland , and afterwards would take england in his way , and make no bones of it . mr. serj. jeff. will you ask him any questions mr. fitz-harris ? fitz-harris . do you believe that i did it with a treasonable intention . mr. smith . sir i am not to judge of that , i am not of your jury , nor to answer any such thing . fitz-harris . what do you think sir pray ? mr. smith . you could have no good design to bring about by any such matter ( i think ) as this paper is . fitz-harris . is this the same paper that was read in the house of commons ? mr. smith . sir , i was not of the house of commons i don't know what was read there . mr. johnson . mr. everard did seem to hint at a design among some protestant lords , and parliament men , and others dissenters from the church of england , i desire to know whether mr. smith heard those words ? l. c. j. that was not the first night . mr. smith . i did not hear it . l. c. j. look you mr. johnson , mr. smith was not present at the second meeting , then sir will. waller was there , it was only the first night mr. smith was there , and he speaks to that . therefore as to the alteration of the copy , and some other things , he tells you that was done the second night , and then was the discourse concerning the french confessor , and those other things which you mention . mr. at. gen. i believe the jury misapprehend mr. ev●rard in that too . l. c. j. it was only what fitz-harris told him . mr. att. gen. but i see the thing stick with the jury ▪ therefore i would fain ask mr. everard this question , did you declare an● such thing , or was it mr. fitz-harris that told you ? mr. ev●rard . mr. fit●-harris told me , that several parliam●●● men were joyned with the french embassador to give him an 〈◊〉 of things , but he told me besides , this must be drawn up as it 〈…〉 the name of the non-conformists to father it upon th●m , y●t 〈◊〉 there was one word in it thou as if it were in the 〈…〉 says he it must not be so , but it must be under the 〈…〉 non-conformists , that it may be common to all the 〈…〉 . l. c. j. so you must take the ●ense of this right 〈…〉 mr. everard tell ▪ you some parliament men , and lord● 〈…〉 in this bus●n●ss but 〈◊〉 fitz-harri●'s design was to ingag● 〈◊〉 and he 〈…〉 to incourage him to it . so that the 〈…〉 ●●me lords and parl●●m●nt m●n 〈…〉 him to go on . mr. 〈◊〉 〈…〉 my lord , so th●t h●re does appear there was so●● othe●●●terest than the french interest in th●s matter , if wh●t mr. fitz-h●●ris said was true . mr. att. gen. fitz-harris said so to ingage him . l. c. j. look you mr. john●on , we do all 〈◊〉 b●lieve and hope , there was no such thing as that any lord , or an● 〈…〉 commons of en●land were so ingaged , it was his interest as mr. fit●-harris took it to mention it so to ingage this g●ntleman . mr. ever●●d . i did not say lords . l. c. j. what did you say th●n ? m● ▪ ev●rard . parliament men in general . mr. a●t gen. then swear s●r will. waller which was done . s●r f●a● . withins . pray sir william will you give an account of what you know of this matter . ●●r will. waller . my lord , the last time i was here in this court being summoned to give in my evidence . i did make some difficul●● of it upon the account that this person was impeached by the commons of england in parliament , but mr. justice jones having declared the law , required me in such a case to give in my evidence , i am now ready to give it in , and shall do it asbriesly as i can . l. c. j. well sir pray go on . sir will. waller . my lord , upon the th . or th . of fe● . last mr. everard met me in the city , and told me he had a business of very great concernment to discover to me , whereupon my lord we went into a place where we might conveniently discourse together , and he told me in short , that mr. edw. fitz-harris that unfortunate gent. at the bar had been with him several times , and endeavoured to ingage him in a business , which would in effect turn all into confusion in england , and render the king very odious in the sight of his subjects . many things he did there tell me , and earnestly pressed me 〈◊〉 joyn in this design to endeavour the discovery of it . i was indeed at the first shie of medling with it being no way in the commission of the peace , and so not liable to ingage in a business of that nature , but i was afraid to discourage mr. smith , who voluntarily , and ingeniously offered himself for the service of his king and countrey , but i did not go that afternoon , being willing to hear whether the business wen● on , and was likely to come to any thing ; the next morning mr. e●●rard writ to me this letter ( plucking out a paper . ) mr. j●st . doil●●n . 〈◊〉 i● sir. sir will. ●●lle● . my lord , in effect it was this , to let me know mr. smith had been with him the night before , and that according as they had laid the● 〈◊〉 mr. fitz-harris did indeed come , and had some discou●se in the 〈◊〉 of mr. smith , several things beyond what the● 〈◊〉 ●cqu●●nted me with , things of the highest nature imagin●ble , an● 〈◊〉 he ●arnestly pressed me , as i tendred the welfare of my 〈…〉 that i would not fail to come that afternoon to be 〈◊〉 ●ar-w●tness of the treasonable practices that were in hand . i 〈◊〉 upon my self then obliged to go , and did according to 〈…〉 he gave me , go about three of the clock in the 〈◊〉 to a tavern at the lower end of fullers-rents near grays-i●● , and there we were to discourse furth●r of the business . i had not been t●ere long , but i looked out of a back window , and spied mr. 〈◊〉 with another gent ▪ in a brown coloured suit , walking just be●ore grays-inn door . i don't know the name of the court , ●●t th●re i saw them walking , but in their going he frequen●●● looked up at mr. everard's chamber , and pointed at it . when he was gone , i told him it may be mr. fitz-harris may come sooner than ●he h●●r a●pointed , therefore i think it will not be amiss to go without ●urther d●lay to your chamber , and s●e what conveniency there may be to lie 〈◊〉 where i may be both an eye and an ear-witness i went to his chamber , and when i came into the room there was a little 〈◊〉 which i thought not so convenient for me , and i rather chose to ●●ok about if i could find another place more convenient . in short in ●●e next room i found by my cane there was a door , and 〈…〉 i turn●d up the hangings there , and in the door there was a 〈…〉 i opened a little with my knife , and ripped a whole in ●he 〈…〉 ●hich looked into the room where the gent. was to 〈…〉 mr. fitz-harris came , mr. everard had given me a large account much after the same manner that he hath given in his t●●timony here , and he shew'd me two papers : i took the two papers , and gave them a private mark that i might know them again , and withal we placed a table , and a chair ready against mr. fitz-harris's coming in , and agreed that he should be placed so , as that through the hole i might have a full sight of him , but lest by an accident he should be removed from thence , i desired mr. everard to ask him three questions . the st . was , whether he had not married a daughter of one captain finch's whose father was killed in his majesties service ; the d. was , whether as he read over the paper it was drawn up according to his instructions ; and the d. was , who was the person that should recompense mr. everard for running so great an hazard . according to these instructions the table being placed and every thing in order about seven a clock , or between six and seven mr. fitz-harris came in , and being fate down he began to ask some questions , amongst others — then some complaint was made by the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of papers given to mr. fitz-harris . fitz-harris . pray my lord , i beg that paper may be given to my wife again . mr. att. gen. i pray it may be given to the court. mr. serj. maynard . i pray they may be read . mr. sol. gen. 't is not the duty of a solicitor to 〈◊〉 papers , he was only appointed by the court to run of errands , he is not to advise , or furnish with matter of defence . mr. serj. jefferies . my lord , this is an offence committed in the face of the court , therefore we pray the person that hath done it may be committed . mr. just . dolben . it is nothing but the resolutions of the house of commons , give it him again . l. c. j. if mr. whittaker lies there to trouble the court , we shall find another place for him . mr. sol. gen. my lord , mr. whittaker hath done his duty now , and what service your lordship appointed him , for i think he may be sent away for here is no more business for him . sir will. waller . mr. fitz-harris came in i think it was between six and seven a clock , and coming there he fate himself down in the chair prepared for him , and mr. everard , according to the instruction● i had given him , did ask him several questions , but mr. 〈◊〉 did ask him first whether he had finished the paper according to some instructions he had given him . mr. everard produced two papers , the one was the copy of the other as i counted . mr. fitz-harris had one given into his hand , and the other mr. everard had mr. everard after he had read a little in it did ask whether this was drawn up according to the instructions mr. f●tz-harris had given he answered it was exactly according to the instructions he had given him . after he had read a little further says mr. everard to him , this is a business of very dangerous consequ●nce , what reward shall i have for running so great an hazard , he told him aga●● thus , sir says he i think i run an equal hazard with you ; for 〈◊〉 have a paper under my hand which will r●nder me liable to dan●●● , and then he went on and read further , and if mr. attorney will 〈◊〉 to l●t me see the paper , there is one particular clause it that i to●k special ●otice of . m● . a●t . gen. would you have the libel , or the paper sir william ? s●r will. waller . the libel sir , ▪ which was given him ) there wa● one ●assage in it which i remember , and it was this ( ●●●aking of the kings preferring persons that were ingaged in the late irish 〈◊〉 the paper was first ( prefers ) but says mr. fitz-harris in fr●●ch it must be ( has promoted ) several passages of this nature i heard him alter , and i saw him alter with his pen. for after such time as mr. fitz-harris was gone out of the room i went immediately into the ●oom where mr. everard was and took notice of the paper , and the ●nk upon the paper was hardly dry . mr. att. gen. look upon that , that is the original , and the other the counter part . sir will. waller . here is the mark ( then pointing to the bottom of the paper ▪ these two papers i marked both together , and this is the paper sir was 〈◊〉 i do remember it more particularly , for this paper i ha● 〈◊〉 my own custody , and signed it afterwards . l. c j. 〈…〉 on . 〈…〉 h● was asking him , pray sir said he , what rewa●● 〈…〉 ●●y 〈◊〉 mr. fitz-harris you shall be very well pa●d you shall n●t ne●● to 〈◊〉 you shall have all manner of incouragement . t●is 〈◊〉 will b●●ng a considerable advantage to you , and you shall ●e o●●erwise preferred than when you were in the french kin●●●●vice ●ays 〈◊〉 you cannot but know how you have beenslighted and neglected not with●tanding the service you have done , and the french 〈◊〉 i● the person that is to recompense you for your pains , and he spoke of ●orty ▪ but truly i did not hear whether it were guinys , or what it was that he should have for present payment , and i heard him speak somthing of a pension he named three thousand crowns , but whether annually or how i cannot tell . pray sir said he wh●t shall i do in this ●ase for i do not know , i am but in a low condition , and have occasion for mony , why says he the french em●assador will supply you , and you shall certainly as soon as the paper is perfected have your re●ard and says he there are a great many more that we have employed in businesses of this nature , to create misunderstanding between the king and his people , by which means the french will easily over run flanders and the ●ow-countr●●s , and then england will become an easie morsel . and this is the subs●●nce of what i remember . fitz-harris . do you believe i had any such design as treason in it . sir 〈◊〉 wall●r . i cann't say any thing to that , i only speak as to the matter of ●act . mr. at● . g●n . did he declare he had many more employed in the service ? sir will. w●ller . yes he did say so . and said he there are two pa●l●●ment ●en ●●at frequent my ●ord sha●tesbury's who my lord does not 〈◊〉 ●●at do come and found him , and then go and acquaint the 〈◊〉 ●mbassador with all they can discover . ●it●-har●●s . is th●s the same paper by the oath you have taken , for whic● i was impeached by the commons in parliament ? sir will w●ll●● . 〈◊〉 't is a copy of the same paper , and that paper 〈◊〉 did read i● the house . mr. a●t . gen. 't is the original . mr. joh●●on . my lord , i desire to ask sir w. waller one question , sir you have heard the indictment read , then pray tell us whether this very libel be expressed in the indictment according to what was deli●ered in the house of commons . mr. att. gen. you shall hear that by and by your selves . for you shall hear the paper read to you with the indictment . sir wi●l . waller . this is a copy of that paper . mr. johnson . does mr. fitz-harris stand impeached by the house of commons upon the same treasons mentioned in the indictment ? sir will. waller . yes , sir. mr. att. gen. upon the same treasons ? sir will. waller . upon this treasonable paper he does . for as soon as ever i had communicated this paper to the house , and i had made my report of the treasonable transactions of mr. fitz-harris , the house immediately proceeded to the impeachment . mr. sol. gen. does the impeachment mention that paper ? or what particular treason he was impeached upon ? sir will. waller . i know nothing of that . but upon this paper that impeachment was grounded , that is all i can say . mr. sol. gen. that this libel was spoken of in the house of commons , is true , but it does not appear upon the impeachment that he was impeached for that libel . l. c. j. have you any more witnesses ? mr. att. gen. yes , we have to other matters . but we desire to let them alone till the libel be read . mr. johnson . my lord , we beg we may have the comparison of the libel with the indictment . fitz-harris . i would ask sir w. waller one question more upon his oath , whether he had any design of trapanning me , or any body else in this thing . mr. sol. gen. had you any design to trapan the prisoner , or any body ? sir will. waller . no mr. fitz-harris indeed not i. fitz-harris . i looked upon you always as a person that was my enemy . mr. att. gen. what , because you were a papist ? fitz-harris . no , it was upon another account , i appeal to mr. justice dolben . mr. just . dolben . what do you appeal to me for ? mr s. jeff. have you known mr. fitz-harris before , sir william ? sir will. waller . yes , many years . mr. serj. jefferies . what religion was he reputed to be of ? sir will. waller . a roman catholick . fitz-harris . i am not bound to continue so always . mr. jones . then shew your conversion . mr. att. gen. pray let the libel be read . then the paper was produced . mr. att. gen. sir w. waller , and mr. everard , is that the paper ? mr. everard . this is the paper . mr. att. gen. is it interlined with his own hand ? mr. everard . yes ; for there is the words ( have promoted ) that i said before , he altered . l. c. j. gent. pray mark this now , you will hear the clauses contained in the indictment read , and you shall hear this paper read , and then your selves shall be judges whether it does contain them yea , or no. mr. johnson . we desire to see it at the bar. mr. att. gen. here is a copy of these clauses you may examine it by that . mr. serj. maynard . 't is not the whole libel , but only some clauses of it he is indicted for . l. c. j. yes , brother . but what they desire is only to see whether so much as is contained in the indictment , is also in the libel . mr. att. gen. pray swear mr. astrey then ; which was done . l. c. j. look you gent. this is one that is intrusted with the affairs of the crown . he is now sworn , and i ask him this question for your satisfaction . mr. astrey , are the english sentences that are in the indictment also comprised in the libel ? mr. astrey . my lord , i did examine this indictment with the libel at mr. attorney generals chamber as well as i could , and they are in terminis the same , the words in the indictment , and the words in the libel . mr. johnson . my lord , if all be not in the indictment that is in the libel then perhaps there may be some connexion with what is antecedent , something to explain those clauses the indictment mentions so that they may bear another construction . therefore we would have all read . mr. serj. maynard . it must be all read to them . l. c. j. yes , brother it shall be wholly read to them , though it need not be expressed de verbo in verbum in the indictment , yet for their satisfaction it shall be wholly read to them . mr. sol. gen. these gentlemen are very cautious i perceive . l. c. j. look you gent. if you will attend the court we will give you what satisfaction we can , pray mr. solicitor give them leave to speak to the court ; what you desire gent. is reasonable enough , that you may hear the libel to see whether these are not clauses taken out of a paper which may have another import in the paper than they have when they are taken out . that is your meaning . mr. johnson . yes , my lord. l. c. j. to that intent you shall hear the libel read distinctly , you shall have the very clauses of the indictment by you that you may look upon them . mr. att. gen. the other part of the libel will do it . l. c. j. pray mr. attorney don't direct me , they shall have the indictment whilst mr. astrey reads the libel , that they may see the import of the words . and you do not apprehend it aright . mr. johnson does not desire to see whether mr. astrey read right , but whether those clauses in the indictment are of the same import in the indictment that they are of in the libel . therefore they must have a copy of the indictment whilst mr. astrey reads the libel , and mr. astrey pray mark those clauses when you come to them , for you will find they are dispersed up and down the libel . mr. astrey . i do not swear to that very paper , but i believe you will find they are rightly taken out of the libel in the indictment . mr. att. gen. this is the copy of the indictment clauses . cl. of cr. reads . friend i thank thee for the character of the popish successor — then one of the jury having the copy in his hand , and not finding it exact desired a true copy . sir will. waller . here is a true copy of it i took my self and read in the house . then the libel was read through , and the clauses particularly observed . l. c. j. gentlemen , now you have heard it read . and you may observe there is nothing in this paper can extenuate or mitigate the clauses , but abundance to make them more horrid and exceedingly aggravated . mr. att. gen. then call mr. savile who was the person mr. everard did meet with , and acquaint with this business . ( but he did not appear ) then call sir philip lloyd and mr. bridgman . my lord , the next peice of evidence we shall give is this , sir will. waller and mr. everard do both say , that he gave part of his instructions under his own hand , we shall produce the paper and prove he acknowledged it to be his own hand . then the paper was produced . mr. att. gen. who writ that sir ? mr. everard . mr. fitz-harris . mr. att. gen. are those the instructions he gave you to frame this libel ? mr. everard . these are part of the instructions my lord , other part i took in my table-book before mr. smith . mr. att. gen. we will prove it by other witnesses , sir philip lloyd , and mr. bridgman . mr. bridgman sworn . mr. att. gen. did the prisoner acknowledge that to be all his own hand-writing ? mr. bridgman . yes my lord , mr. fitz-harris did acknowledge it to be all writ with his own hand . sir philip lloyd sworn . sir fr. withins . look upon that paper sir , ( which he did ) did mr. fitz-harris acknowledge it was his hand-writing ? sir philip lloyd . yes he did , and that i might bear testimony of it the better , i writ with my own hand on the back of it , that he did so . mr. att. gen. read it . cl. of cr. read . after this sham meeting of the parliament at oxon which no body expects any good of , it will be necessary , &c. mr. sol. gen. these words are likewise in the indictment . l. c. j. when was that given to you mr. everard , for — mr. fitz-harris it seems owned it before the lords in the council , but mr. everard swears the delivery of it , what time was it ? mr. everard . it was either monday , or tuesday . l. c. j. in february was it not ? mr. everard . yes , and i asked captain fitz-harris according to sir w. wallers queries , whether he had given instructions according to what he would have contained in the thing , yes said he ; but have you not enough under my own hand to do it by . mr. serj. maynard . my lord , we have done our evidence , we will leave it now to hear what the prisoner will say for his defence . l. c. j. mr. fitz-harris if you have any thing to say for your defence this is your time to do it . fitz-harris . yes , my lord dr. oates i desire may be called . mr. att. gen. if you have any witnesses name them . mrs. fitz-harris . yes , yes dr. oates , and ask him what he heard mr. everard say . l. c. j. what say you to dr. oates , here he is . fitz-harris . pray dr. what have you heard mr. everard say about this libel since i was taken . dr. oates . my lord , after this business was talked of abroad having heard that sir william waller and everard had made the discovery , i did discourse mr. everard about the business , and about the libel . he told me he wrote the libel , and when i would not believe it the man was a little angry that i would not believe it . and then i told him he was a man very unfortunate in speaking ; for he spoke but badly ; he said though he was unfortunate in his tongue , yet he was as fortunate in his pen , and that he took a great deal out of the intercepted letter to roger le'strange , and i then asked him what the design of it was , he told me it was to be printed , and to be sent about by the penny post to the protesting lords , and the leading men in the house of commons , and they were to be taken up as soon as they had it , and to be searched , and to have it found about them . i then asked him if there were any other persons concerned in it besides those publickly talked of , he told me the court had an hand in it , and the king had given fitz-harris money already , and would give him more if it had success . this he told me at oxford , and before he went thither , and after . fitz-harris . mr. sheriff cornish , i do beg you would declare what his majesty told you , when you came to him from me , when i was at newgate . mr. sheriff . i do not know what you call me for , mr. fitz-harris . fitz-harris . i desire you to acquaint the court what the king said to you when you came to him from newgate from me . mr. sheriff . my lord , i shall desire your lordships opinion in this matter , whether it be seemly or decent for a subject to declare , what discourse his prince is pleased to have with him . l. c. j. look you sir , if you give any evidence , give it . we are not to direct any witness whether they shall give their evidence , or not . mr. att. gen. mr. sheriff , you ought to do it openly if you give any , therefore pray l●t us hear you . mr. sheriff . my lord , i cannot remember what was said relating to this particular matter . there was a great deal his majesty was pleased to discourse with me concerning things of several kinds and natures , my memory may fail me , but if mr. fitz-harris please to ask as to any particular matter . fitz-harris . what the king said when you came from newgate to him , to acquaint him that i would make a discovery . did he say i was employed by him , and received any money , and what for ? mr. sheriff . my lord , i do remember something of that kind . when i was giving his majesty an account that i found the prisoner at the bar in a disposition to make a discovery , his majesty was pleased to tell me he had often had him before him and his secretaries upon examination , and could make nothing at all of what he did say or discover to them , and his majesty was pleased likewise to say , that he had for near three months before acquainted him , that he was in pursuit of a plot a matter that related mueh to his majesties person and government , and the king did say in as much as he made great protestations of his zeal for his service , he did countenance and give him some money , i know nothing more . mr. att. gen. did the king ever declare that he saw fitz-harris in his life , or that he ever was in his presence ? mr. sheriff . yes . mr. att. gen. ay , but before his appearing at the council table , did the king ever say he saw him , or before he was arrested for this fact ? mr. sheriff . yes , his majesty was pleased to say about three months before , he came to him and pretended he would discover a great plot to him . l. c. j. have you any other questions to ask mr. sheriff . fitz-harris . no. where is colonel mansel . dr. oates . my lord , i desire that if the prisoner have any more questions to ask me he may do it , because the croud is great , and i would go out . fitz harris . sir , i have many more questions to ask you , i desire you would please to stay . l. c. just . you must stay if he have any more questions to ask you . here is col. mansel , what say you to him ? fitz harris . col. what did you hear sir william waller say after this discovery was made ? col. mansel . that which i heard sir william waller say , was this ; i had occasion to speak with sir james hayes , and enquiring for him , i found he was at the dog tavern ; so i went up , and found in the company , sir william waller , and another gentleman one mr. hunt , and some more . after the rest of the company were gone , and only sir james hayes , mr. hunt , my self , and sir william waller left , sir william was giving an account of this business , and said , the king , when i had acquainted him with it , told me i had done him the greatest piece of service that ever i had done him in my life ; and gave me a great many thanks . but i was no sooner gone from thence , but two worthy gentlemen gave me an account , that the king said , i had broken all his measures , and he would have me taken off one way or another . fitz harris . did he say any thing , that it was a design to put the libel upon the protestant lords , and the house of commons ? col. mansel . there was that said . l. c. just . what was said ? don 't come with your imperfect discourses here , but if you give evidence , tell what was said . col. mansell . sir william waller said , that the design was against the protestant lords , and the protestant party . mr. serj. maynard . i do not doubt that it was against the protestant party . mr. attorn . gen. recollect your self ; was it against the protestant lords , or the protestant party ? col. mansell . he said , the protestant party . mr. attorn . gen. so say we. fitz harris . did he not say it was another sham plot , sir , against the phanaticks , and the house of commons ? where is mr. hunt ? [ mr. hunt appeared . mr. hunt. what would you have with me , mr. fitz harris ? i never had any conversation with you in my life . fitz harris . no sir ; but what have you heard sir william waller say concerning my business ? mr. hunt. my lord , i would rather i had lost my hearing for that time , than have heard it to repeat it . sir william waller did tell me , at the dog tavern , where was sir james hayes and col. mansell by , after he had read over the libel to us , there was a great deal of company more , but he only gave us the curiosity to see what the libel was . and when he had read it , he did tell us , that the king gave him particular thanks for that good service he had done him in detecting fitz harris ; but he said he was told by two gentlemen that had heard the king speak it , who were of undoubted credit , that the king was in an extream passion , bestowed many hard names on him , and said , he would give any thing in the world to take him out of the world ; that he was an insufferable vexation to him , and that he had broken all his measures . and he said the same things again , in the presence of sir philip harcourt , and my lord radnor's son mr. roberts , at capt. hall's chamber , in pembrook college in oxon. mr. attorn . gen. what did he say about the prisoner ? mr. hunt. this was about the libel of fitz harris , that the king gave him particular thanks about that business ; and afterwards the king did expr●ss great passion , in some short time after he was gone ; and he did say he was informed by two witnesses that heard the king say it , he knew not what to do with him , he broke all his measures . fitz harris . did he not say this was a design against the protestants ? mr. hunt. he did say it was a design to contrive these papers into the hands of people , to make them evidences of rebellion ; and that was his apprehension of the thing . and he said further , ( for i am a witness here , and must speak all my knowledg ) that he had another plot which he had traced near to a full discovery , a more horrid plot than this or dangerfield's , for , he said , this was the counter-part of dangerfield's plot. i hope he will not deny it , if he be asked , here he is , and upon his oath ; i am not , and i desire not to take credit unsworn , but am willing to give my testimony on oath . fitz harris . where is dr. cary ? mr. sheriff cornish . dr. cary is not well , my lord , and can't come . fitz harris . then mr. sheriff bethell . dr. oates . my lord , i pray i may be discharged . l. ch. just . doctor , we have nothing to say to you , but the prisoner hath more questions to ask you . 't is not we that detain you , but you stay upon the prisoner's account . fitz harris . mr. sheriff bethell desires to know what you can say concerning mr. everard . mr. sheriff bethell . my lord , i know nothing of mr. everard as to this business , save that he told me he writ the libel himself . and i confess , my lord , further , that before ever he knew my face , or before ever he heard me speak a word in his days , he put in an information of treason against me , at the instigation of one that is known to be my mortal enemy ; and it was so groundless , that tho' it was three years ago given in , yet i never heard a word of it till friday last . i can bring witnesses of this , persons that sent the notice of it to me . fitz harris . pray call mrs. wall. ( who came down from her seat. ) fitz harris . mrs. wall , pray will you tell the court , have not i conveyed some libels , and treasonable papers to the king by your means , and received mony upon that account . mrs. wall. not as i know of . fitz harris . did not you receive some of them from me to give to the king ? mrs. wall. no indeed not i. fitz harris . is the footman here that was by , when you paid me the mony ? mrs. wall. yes , and the porter too , tho' you have not subpoena'd them . fitz harris . how long ago is that ? mrs. wall. two years ago . fitz harris . was it not about christmass last was twelve month i gave you the libel about the king and your lady ; and the king thanked me extreamly , and i had l. given me ? come , mrs. wall , don't think to trick me out of my life in the case , for i will not be tricked so . pray tell the court , can you deny that i had the l ? speak , mrs. wall , had i l ? mrs. wall. that was not the question you asked me at first . fitz harris . but speak , had i it ? mrs. wall. there was l. i think it was , or , or l ▪ fitz harris . what use was it for ? and upon what account ? mrs. wall. you do know it was not for any libel . fitz harris . if you have any mind , tell it . mrs. wall. there it is . ( delivering in a paper to be read . ) cl. of cr. the humble petition of edward fitz-harris . — mrs. wall. i really took him for as honest a man as ever i knew in my life , and had it been in my power to have done him a kindness , i should not have failed to have done it . mr. attorn . gen. was he your countryman , madam ? mrs. wall. yes , he is , and my relation too . i knew you to be the son of a very suffering loyal family ; and while his mother was in town , he came often to our house ; and when she went away , he left visiting the house a great while . and you , mr. fitz-harris , did once tell me , you could bring in people to the king's interest , that were very considerable . so i spoke to the secretary of state about you , that there was one that had been with me , and told me , that he could bring in those to the king and duke's interest that were very considerable . the secretary of state desired me to know who they were ; and then he named to me one thomas merrey , and another person who i desire to be excused from naming . the other party he did name , was thought considerable , both for quality and understanding . and the secretary desired me to get him in if i could . mr. attorn . gen. pray , madam , who was it ? mrs. wall. i desire mr. fitz-harris may tell you . fitz harris . no , mrs. wall , pray do you tell it , since you have spoke of it . mrs. wall. i say nothing but what i will take my oath of . fitz harris . then you will never swear that which is true . pray , mrs. wall , speak , who was it ? mrs. wall. i desire i may not name him , but he may . mr. attorn . gen. he will not . mrs. wall. truly , i do not think it convenient for me to name such persons as those are upon such accounts . fitz-harris . pray , mrs. wall , name the person that i would have brought into the king's service . mrs. wall. if the court commands me , i will ; otherwise i will not . fitz-harris . did you ever , upon any such account as this , receive any mony for me , speak the truth ? mrs. wall. god forbid your blood should lie at my door ; i assure you i should be sorry for it . he told me , these persons were considerable for the king's interest , and could do him extraordinary good service . so , as i said , i spoke to the secretary of state ; and he would know who they were . and when he was told who they were , as for one of them , thomas merrey , he was not thought worth the looking after , for he was thought an inconsiderable rascal ; but as for the other gentleman , he was thought a man of worth , and a person , that if he would , could really serve the king. upon this , when you first came , i was never at rest for you ; and therefore , after a while , before you came again , i gave the porter order to tell you , i was not at home ; and i desire the porter may be asked the question . but when i next saw the secretary , i desired that he would give them a positive answer , one way or the other ; and the next time i saw you , this was your business , and i told the secretary of sate of it . you gave me this paper , and desired me to sollicit for your quit-rent in ireland , for you were in great misery , and had been a great sufferer . so i spoke to the dutchess of portsmouth , and she spoke to the secretary of state ; that if this man be so considerable a sufferer , 't is convenient to give him something for his encouragement ; and if you will give him something , said i , give it him quickly . i was , if not months a getting this mony . fitz-harris . but will you say it was upon that account ? when was that mony paid ? mrs. wall. i never thought i should be brought in for a witness ; or that you would have abused me thus for my kindness . fitz-harris . when were those papers given you that you produced ? mrs. wall. i wish i may never see the face of god , if i know any more than what i give evidence ; there are the papers , they will tell you the time . fitz-harris . did i give them you ? mrs. wall. you or your wife did ; and i suppose your wife's condition was yours . fitz-harris . was not the mony received before ever those papers were given you ? mrs. wall. nay , mr. fitz-harris , i will tell you more ; send to mr. henry guy , and let him tell you when he paid it you . fitz-harris . call the porter , and the footman if he be here . l. ch. just . if you will ask any more questions of mrs. vvall , do . fitz-h . did not i come to you the wednesday before i was taken , and told you , i desired to speak with the king , and that i had a libel to present to him ? mrs. vvall. no , so far from that , that it was the thursday before you were taken , you came about nine a clock at night to our lodgings , and sent up to my chamber ; and i sent word that mr. cowling was there , for i did not care to see you ; but you sent word up , you had something of consequence to tell me . so i came down , and you desired me to bring you to the speech of the king ; which was a thing you did never desire before : and you said thus , if you did but see the king , you believed you could say somthing to him that might do him service . fitz-harris . did not i say here is the libel that i come to deliver to the king now ? mrs. vvall. no , as i have a soul to be saved . fitz-harris . mrs. vvall , i did , and this was what you said at the same time ; that since my lord sunderland was gone , you could have no secret service . i did desire to speak with the king privately , those were my words ; and you told me , you could not so easily do business with the king since my lord sunderland's time . l. ch. just . we must not let you hold a dialogue between your selves , you must speak that the court may hear . mr. attorn . gen. was not he a roman catholick ? mr. vvall. yes , we looked upon him so , and upon that account we said it was dangerous for him to go near the king. mr. attorn . gen. did you know that ever he was admitted to the king ? mrs. vvall. never ; but he hath been talking with me in a room as the king passed by . mr. attorn . gen. did the king ever take any notice of him , speak to him ? mrs. vvall. the king never took notice of him , nor spoke with him by my means , nor gave him mony , other than what i speak of , nor the dutch. of portsmouth . l. ch. just . look you , mrs. vvall , i think you do say that there was some mony paid to mr. fitz-harris , pray speak plain upon what account was it paid . mrs. vvall. my lord , it was for the bringing of my lord howard of escrick , who is there ; since you press me to it , i must tell , i think my lord will not deny it . lord howard . i will never deny the truth . fitz-harris . where was my lord howard of escrick ? mrs. vvall. he was not so much for the king's interest , or that which they call the king's interest . fitz-harris . how long is this since ? mrs. vvall. two years ago since he came first to me ; but whether it be a year and an half since my lord met with the king , i cannot tell . fitz-harris . when my lord was admitted in to the king , i did wait on him to that purpose , to bring in my lord howard . mrs. vvall. i desire that my lord howard may be asked , whether he don't remember , when the king was coming , mr. fitz-harris was put out of the room first . fitz-harris . you say , i never shewed any libel to the king. mrs. vvall. i tell you what i said since to this gentleman that is here ; i wish you shad shewn the libel unto me , that i might have been in a capacity of saving your life . fitz-harris . you said , that i had the l. for bringing in my lord howard . mrs. vvall. i say , it was upon promise to bring in persons that would be useful and serviceable to the king. l. ch. just . she is your own witness , and she tells you , two persons you did undertake to bring in , and for that you had this mony. mrs. vvall. it was his poverty and this together . mr. serj. jefferies . mrs. vvall , i conceive he never discovered this libel unto you ; but , pray , did he ever discourse with you about everard ? and what character did he give him ? mrs. wall. once he did , and he said he was an honest man ; and asked me if i would be acquainted with him ? i told him , no , for he had a knavish reputation ; he was an informer , and i cared for no informers . fitz-harris . mrs. wall , to let the world see how you shuffle about me , when did the king see my lord howard first , when i brought him ? mrs. wall. i don't know , ask my lord howard . fitz-harris . did not i speak to the king in the outer room ? and did not you get me to make a stand there ? mrs. wall. mr. fitz-harris , don't make me tell that thing . fitz-harris . pray speak the truth , mrs. wall. mrs. wall. i defie you , and all mankind , to say i do otherwise . you did desire me to tell the duke , that you would first bring my lord to him , and then to the king ; and i spoke to the duke , and he said you were a rascal , and he would not meddle with you ; this you know . fitz-harris . did not my lady portsmouth tell me , the duke was angry , & c ? mrs. wall. mr. fitz-harris , when you came to me upon such an errand , was it reasonable that i should bring you , upon every trifle , to the speech of the king , and i should not bring you then , 't is without sense and reason . l. ch. just . you must not ask questions , but answer . and , mr. fitz-harris , do you design to detect mrs. wall of falshood ? she is your own witness , you consider not you can get nothing by that . fitz-harris . my lord , when you see the papers produced , you will find it is upon another account . mrs. wall. is this your hand , mr. fitz-harris ? ( shewing him a paper . ) fitz-harris . but is not this upon the account of a pension granted in ireland ? pray let the gentlemen of the jury see , this is of another different nature ; i appeal to my lord howard of escrick , whether he did not speak to my lady about it . lord howard . i did so . mrs. wall. my lord did second my lady to get you some charity . fitz-harris . so that the mony received here , was plainly upon another account . l. ch. just . look you , if you will have any papers read , they shall be read . but the gentlemen of the jury must not see any papers but what are read . then the petition of mrs ▪ fitz-harris , and the king's letter to the duke of ormond , was read , about a pension in ireland . fitz-harris . my lord , if you please , i have something further to say to mrs. wall. but i desire to ask mr. cowling a question , and that is , sir , what mrs. wall said to you about my business ? mr. cowling . my lord , i think , the day after this man was examined in the council , i came to mrs. wall , and she told me , that the s●cond or third night before he was taken , he came to her to bring him to the king ; but she sent down stairs , that she would not let him come up . but asked him , why he did not go to one of the secretaries of state ? no , said he , i can't go thither wi●hout being taken notice of ; but i 'le tell you my business . no , said she , if you will write down your business , and give it me in a paper , i will carry it to the king ; and if the king have a mind to speak with you , you shall be sent for . no , said he , i will not do that . then , said she , i must b●g your pardon if i don't bring you to the king. and mrs. wall said further to me , truly her blood did chill when she said so , for she was afraid he was come to do the king a mischief . mr. attorn . general . this was three or four nights before he was taken . fitz-harris . is sir robert thomas here ? ( he did not appear ) then i desire my lord howard to stand up . lord howard . have you any thing to say to me , mr. fitz-harris ? fitz-harris . yes , my lord , if you please . my lord , i desire your lordship will please to tell , what my lady portsmouth did express to you concerning me , at your coming thither ; and whether i did not introduce your lordship ; and how civil she was to me upon that account ; and how she undertook to get my quit-rent for me . lord howard . sir , i shall answer as particularly as i can all your questions ; but it will be necessary to introduce my evidence with the relation of the whole transaction . you know , about october last , about the beginning of the month , for it was , as i take it , ten days , or a fortnight , before the ●itting down of the parliament , you did make applications to me , in the name of the king , whether with or without his privity i cannot say ; but you did make several invitations to me , of putting my self into the possession of an honour i was altogether unworthy of , of waiting upon the king. i gave you my reasons why i thought my self unfit for that honour , because i was not in any capacity of doing the king any service : and i looked upon the king as a person too sacred , and whose time was too precious to be trifled away upon one that had nothing to offer to him , and therefore i refused it . but notwithstanding this , was reinforced by you ; and when i still persisted in the denial of that which was an honour i ought rather to have sought , but only because i thought my self uncapable of deserving it . after several applications , i did at last tell you , besides the impertinency of it , i did also apprehend it might be the occasion of some indecency ; for perhaps i might thereby put my self upon d●claring my self in some of my sentiments , very much differing from those of his majesty . and for me to seek an opportunity to express my contrari●ty to his majesty's thoughts , would be both rudeness and imprudence ; and therefore i did then ultimately answer you , i would by no means be prevailed with . then you did lower it , and said , it should suffice , if i would wait upon the dutches● of portsmouth . truly , i told you , as to that too , you did me a great honour , and greater than i could ▪ expect , for i had nothing ( i was afraid ) worthy her trouble ; and therefore i desired to know what it might mean. in short , you did resolve it into this , that you did find the king under great app●ehension , that there was something deep in the hearts of some , that stood at a distance from his majesty , and opposite to his interest ; and that the parliament stood at an irreconcileable difference with the king. truly , said i , i am a p●rson not ●it to speak in the name of a parliament , for in a little time they will speak for themselves ; but if i were to speak , or should presume to speak in the name of the parliament , or the whole nation , i should say , i believed the king would find his parliament meeting him with as great affection , duty , and loyalty , as any parliament ever met any king of england . you said , then you were confident , and you cited her grace the dutchess of p●rtsmouth for it , that the king came to meet them with inclinations to gratify them in any thing they could d●sire . then , said i , to what end need i come there , for the parliament will speak its own sense speedily . pray do me that kindness , as to go and satisfie the dutchess of portsmouth , and to let her know she may now have an opportunity of declaring how willing she is to be a good instrument between the king and his people . said you , i can assure you , that she is altogether for the same interest that you look towards ; for you are very much mistaken if you think she is a friend to the duke of york . my lord , in short ▪ after much intreaty , i did give my self that honour , which i have no cause to repent or be ashamed of , to go to whitehall , humbly to kiss my lady dutchess's hand , and receive her commands . but when i came there , i was surprized with a greater honour of finding the king there , and i think it was an opportunity , wherein my time was not ill spent as to my self , but i am afraid this l. if it were given for the bringing me thither , his majesty doth not think he hath deserved it at this time . fitz-harris . your lordship came there in october last . lord howard . because i will do you all the right i can , it was , as i take it , the beginning of october , and about the th , because the parliament sat down the d , and as i remember , it was a fortnight before . this was the first time that i owe you thanks for the honour of seeing the king. after that , a matter of ten days , i had a second opportunity , and by your means also . this was the last time i had the honour to se● the king , but in publick . after this , i must confess , when the parliament was ended , i did then , willingly enough , invite my self to the honour of waiting upon the dutchess , and give her thanks , and tell her , i was sensible she had endeavoured , as much as in her lay , to perswade the king into a good opinion of the parliament , and to give them time of sitting , and thereby to give them opportunity of explaining their intentions for his service and advantage . this was also the last time i had the honour of seeing her . at last , parting from her , i did make it my humble request to her , that she would be pleased to represent your condition to the king , since by your means i had the honour to be shewed the way to her graces lodgings . fitz-harris . my lord , did not i come to you with a message , the night before my lord stafford was condemned ? lord howard . you say right , and it was in my thoughts , and yet i thought it too tender a thing to speak of ; and therefore i thought it so , because , i must confess , at that time ( you must excuse me ) i did believe you did not come with that authority you pretended to make use of . after the time that unfortunate lord had had his trial , and the house were preparing their thoughts for the sentence , i was indisposed , and came not to the house that day ; which provoked ▪ the house so much , that they were near committing me to the tower ; but truly i was so ill in body , and had so little a mind to have my vote mixed with his blood , that perhaps i should have run the hazard of going to the tower about it , if that had been all . but the night before you came to me , and told me , as a great secret , that you did bring it as the desire of the king , and as that which he would take as a great instance of my resignation to his will and pleasure , and that for which i might promise my self all the greatest kindnesses possible for a prince to shew to his subjects , if i would go the next day and give my vote for my lord stafford . sir , said i , i have all the obligations of nature and blood to dispose me , as much as can be , to favour my lord stafford , as far as can consist with the integrity and sincerity of a judg ; but though i was wavering in my own thoughts the day before , now by the grace of god i will go , though i be carried on mens backs to the house . now i see there is so great an account put upon it , for i see 't is the concerns , not only of my lord stafford , but the protestant cause ; and then , said i , if all the relations i have were melted down into my lord stafford , if i had but breath enough to pronounce his doom , he shall die . mr. attorn . gen. my lord says , he did not think you came from the king when you came with that message . lord howard . sir , can i do you any more service ? i shall be willing to do it if i can . i cannot deny but i had , by your means , the honour of waiting upon the king and the dutchess , but i have so little reason to value my own worth , that i cannot imagine how it should turn to the king's service . dr. oates . my lord , i desire to have liberty of going away , the croud is so great i cannot stand , and the prisoner hath nothing to say to me . mr. attorn . gen. my lord , that may be part of the popish plot , to keep dr. oates here , to kill him in the crowd . fitz-harris . have not you something more to say doctor ? truly i forget , my memory is so distracted . dr. oates . i know not , if you have any questions to ask me , i will speak truth . ( but he had none , so the doctor went away . ) mrs. fitz-harris . call mr. fanshaw . ( who did not appear . ) fitz-harris . my lady dutchess of portsmouth . mrs. wall. she is not come , because the court is very full ; but if the court will send for her , she will come presently . fitz-harris : my lord , i beg that my lady dutchess of portsmouth may be sent for . mrs. wall. she gave me commission to say , if the court would have her to come , she would so do . l. ch. just . we cannot send for her , if she please to come , so , we have no occasion to send for her . mrs. wall. i presume he can't ask her no questions , but what i can answer . l. ch. just . we will not prejudice the prisoner in his questions , nor send for her , unless she will come . fitz-harris . will you send one of your footmen , mrs. wall , i am a prisoner , and have no body to send . in the mean time , where is the porter ? mrs. wall. here he is . fitz-harris . how long is it since you paid the mony to me from my lady portsmouth ? porter . i cannot tell indeed , 't is so long since . fitz-harris . let him have his oath . l. ch. just . no , that he can't have . fitz-harris . was it not christmass last was twelve month ? porter . i can't indeed tell what time it was . fitz-harris . you dare not speak the truth . mr. just . dol●en . you disparage your own witnesses . mr. serj. jefferies . he hath no witnesses can say any thing for him , and therefore he must find fault with what they say . l. ch. just . have you any other witnesses , mr. fitz-harris ? fitz-harris . yes , my lord , my lord of arran . l. ch. just . what say you to my lord ? fitz-h . did not my wife shew you this libel the sunday that i was taken ? e. of arran . i do not remember i ever heard it , till i heard it read in the house . fitz-harris . did you not read it , my lord ? e. of arran , no , not that i remember . fitz-harris . did not i tell you , i was carrying it to the king ? e. of arran . not that i know of . fitz-harris . was it not a dispute , whether this was treason , or not ? e. of arran . you did shew me a libel , but whether this , or no , i cannot say ; perhaps it was this . i took him for an honest man , my lord ; i have known him five years , and knew his family to be a good family ; i happened to be at dinner with him the day he was taken . after dinner there were some papers he pulled out , and i threw them away . i told you , you would do your self a mischief , some time or other , in medling with such papers . there we drank a bottle or two of wine together , and then we parted . as soon as i came home , i heard this gentleman was seized on , and taken , which surprized me much . and this is all the account i can give of the matter . fitz-harris . then your lordship did not read the paper ? e. of arran . no indeed not i. fitz-harris . did not i tell you , i had a promise of a quit-rent for secret-service ? e. of arran . i do not know particularly what he told me of the quit-rent ; bu● i was willing to do him all the good i could , about a reversion of a pension that he had in the right of his wife ; that was part of my business that day , and thinking he very well deserved it . i am very sorry to see that his fathers son , as the phrase is in ireland , should be accused of such a crime . mr. attorn . gen. my lord , before you go , i desire to ▪ ask you one question ; did you observe ever that he was employed by the french king , or the french ambassador's confessor ? e. of arran . no , my lord , never as i heard of . he used to speak as honestly as any man ; i thought him of the best and loyallest principles of any of his religion . mr. serj. jefferies . what religion did you take him to be of ? e. of arran . he always owned himself a papist , and he and i have had some disputes about it . fitz-harris . mr. secretary jenkins , i desire to know of your honour , what the king said of me ? mr. sec. jenkins . i remember the king did conjure him , to declare who the author of the libel was . fitz-harris . you are a man of honour , sir ; did not the king own he had employed me ? mr. sec. jenkins . i never remember the king did own he had made use of him , by mrs. wall 's means , or otherwise . fitz-harris . my lord conway , don't you remember it ? e. of conway . no , not upon my honour . but i have heard him say , he did formerly imploy you in some trifling things . fitz-harris . did not the king declare in council , that i had gotten mony of him ? e. of conway . that was for my lord howard of escrick's business . mr. serj. jefferies . now your lorship is here , i would ask you , did you ever hear the king declare when he first spoke with the king ? e. of conway . the king never spoke with him till after he was taken ; he was taken the th of february , and the king never spoke with him till the th , the day after . fitz-harris . did not you tell me , if the king did put himself upon the parliament , they would use him as his father was used . mrs. wall. i never told you any such thing . you promised me to bring in my lord howard of escrick ; but they found themselves mightily mistaken in what was promised he would do when he came in . l. ch. just . why , mr. fitz-harris , you cast any thing upon any body to make a noise . fitz-harris . where is mr. peacock ? mrs. fitz harris . i would know of her what mr. bulstrode said . l ch. just . that every body may see you are fairly dealt with , you shall have all the liberty that can be given . you must not ask what another said , but call them themselves to say what they know . here is mr. bulstrode himself . fitz-harris . mr. bulstrode , then , what message did you bring from the king to my wife ? mr. bulstrode . no message at all ; but i 'le tell you what i know . ▪ mrs. fitz-harris , soon after her husband came to be close confined , delivered a petition to the king in the park ; and the king was pleased to give it to me , as he frequently does . mrs. fitz-harris came to me to tell her what the king said to it . said i , the king hath given me no commands at all in it , but this , carry it to the secretary of state , for i cannot say any thing to it . for the king generally tells me what he will have done with such a petition . but she was so very importunate , i asked the king again ; sir , said i , mrs. fitz-harris is very importunate what is your majesty's pleasure in it . said the king , if she have a mind to petition the council , she may , i will neither meddle nor make with it . afterwards i met her several times , and she said , her husband was very severely and hardly used , and she was denied the liberty of coming to him said i , i hear he is guilty of a very foul thing , and there is no way to help him , but by discovering the author of that villanous libel . for she asked me , what i thought of her husband ; and she told me , she intended to try what she could do for him . i said there was no way to do any good , but to make a full discovery of the author . then , said she , if the king would but let me speak with him , i am sure i could do him service , and prevail with him to discover the author . so i told the king of it ; and the king said , if she will come and be examined , with all my heart . and as soon as ever i heard she was come to town , i told her what the king said : and she told me she would willingly come ; and if the king would give her leave to speak with her husband , she did not doubt to prevail with him . that night , about midnight , after i was in bed , and had been in bed two hours , she came to my door and knocked me up . so i rose , and put on my night-gown , and went down , and i heard a voice which i thought was hers . so she came out of the coach to me , and told me , said she , i am come to you to beg of you , that you would be secret , and not to let the court know that i was to come to have any conference with you , for if you do , i am undone and ruined , for there are some persons , my friends , that will not look upon me if they hear any such thing . the next morning i went to her , and told her , the king had directed she should be examined in the afternoon , and she should come down to be examined : which she did ; and as soon as the council was up , i told his majesty she was below . so he ordered some to examine her ; but when i told her of it , said she , if the king will not speak alone with me , i will not speak a word , nor be examined . this is the truth of it , i assure you , my lord , upon my salvation . fitz-harris . where is mr. peacock ? mrs. fitz-harris . what did mr. bulstrode say to me ? l. ch. just . look you , mrs. fitz-harris , and you gentlewoman , you must not be heard to talk of discourses amongst your selves , and to examine what discourse passed between person and person , up and down ; that is not to be permitted in a court , the witness is here , ask him himself . what hath been said to her will be no evidence . mrs. fitz-harris . what offer did you make me ? mr. bulstrode . none ▪ i told you this would be the way to ruin your husband . fitz-harris . my lord , i beg of you , may not i ask what he did say ? l. ch. just. no , 't is no evidence . fitz-harris . then call mr. henry killigrew . ( but he not appearing , the prisoner would have asked what he had been heard to say , but it was not permitted . ) mrs. wall. here is the footman , richard perrot . fitz-harris . how long ago is it since you brought the mony to me from my lady portsmouth ? perrot . i never brought any . fitz-harris . was it not he brought the mony ? mrs. wall. ask him . fitz-harris . was my lord howard ever at your house before october last ? perrot . i do not know . l. ch. just . what use do you make of that ? fitz-harris . pray , my lord , when did you go to my lady dutchesses's ? was it before october last ? lord howard . i think not , i take it as near as i can , it was just before the session of parliament . fitz-harris . it was ten days before the session . then my lady dutchess of portsmouth appeared , and a chair was set for her . fitz-harris . i am sorry to see your grace come here upon any such account , but i hope your grace will excuse me , 't is for my life . i desire to know of your grace , whether i was not employed to bring several papers to the king , and among the rest , the impeachment against your grace : and thereupon your grace was pleased to tell me , that it was a great piece of service to bring those sort of papers ; and if i could find out men serviceable for that purpose , i should do the king good service . i told your grace , i knew one master everard , who knew all the intrigues , and all the clubs in the city , and could tell all the desings of my lord of shaftsbury , and all that party . and your grace did encourage me to go on , and i did , by your grace's direction , and by your means i came to speak with the king about it . lady-dutchess . when must i speak ? sir george jefferies . now madam ; and will you grace now be pleased to stand up . lady-dutchess . i have nothing at all to say to mr. fitz-harris , nor was concerned in any sort of business with him . all i have to say is , he desired me to give a petition to the king to get his estate in ireland ; and i did three or four times speak to the king about it . but i have not any thing else to say to him ; i never spoke to him about any thing else . fitz-harris . does not your grace remember what directions i received about my lord howard ? lady dutchess . i know nothing of that , i sent you not to my lord howard . l. c. just . if you will ask any questions of my lady , do ; but do not make any long discourses . fitz-harris . my lord , my lady may forget . madam , does not your grace remember , you undertook , upon the account of those papers i conveyed , that you would procure me my quit-rent ? lady dutchess . i never had any papers . fitz harris . not that paper of the impeachment against your grace ? lady dutchess . no. fitz-harris . upon what account then had i the mony i received ? lady dutchess . for charity . fitz-harris . i am sorry your grace is so much under mrs. wall 's influence . lady dutchess . i come not here to wrangle with you , mr. fitz-harris , i am come here to say what i know , and will not say one bit more . fitz-h . have i had any money of your grace since you knew my l. howard ? lady dutchess . you never had but that for charity . fitz harris . when did your grace ask it for me ? lady dutchess . i do not remember the time. mr. fitz-harris , if i had any thing in the world to do you good , i would do it ; but i have it not , and so can't see that i am any ways more useful here . ( then her grace went away . ) l. c. j. mr. fitzharris , have you any more witnesses that you would have called ? fitzharris . no , my lord. mr. serj. maynard . will you apply them you have called ? l. c. j. well , have you any thing further to say ? fitzharris . yes , my lord , i have something further to offer for my self : i will tell you what i know , since my witnesses will not do me justice . gentlemen of the jurie , you are my judges in point of law as well as fact , and my bloud will be required at your hands , if you do not do me right . my lord , i cannot forbear complaining to the court of the hard usage i received in prison , contrary to the statute of the th of his majesties reign ; greater oppression hath been done to me than to any before : my lord stafford , sir thomas gascoign , and others , had all the libertie they could desire , to enable them to make their defence against their trial ; which i have had denied me . but my defence consists of two heads , and i shall relie upon the consciences of the jurie for the issue : though my lady portsmouth , and mrs. wall , and the rest , are pleased to say , that i was not employed , nor received money for secret services , yet 't is very well known i did so . ▪ as to mr. everard , when i met with him , though now he hath made it a french storie , yet if he would tell the truth , he knows that it was otherwise : he told me he was well acquainted with my lord of shaftsbury and my lord howard , and in several clubs of the citie he knew all their intrigues ; and that speech that went by the name of my lord shaftsbury's , my lord gave it him before it was printed , and he several other things of that kind . so then i told him , it was a business of the greatest consequence that could be , if he would continue those discoveries . and whereas he says , i would betray the people to the french interest , it is very well known i was always an enemie to the french interest ; but i humoured him in his discourse , and discoursed him to reduce the paper that he accuses me of under some heads ; and that paper i no sooner had , but i came to whitehal with it : and though he said he was to have fortie guinnies , and so said sir william waller too , yet it was onely fortie shillings that he desired for his povertie i would lend him . and as to what he talks of three thousand crowns pension , it is a very unlikely business . when i came to whitehal , i was advised to go to my lord clarendon , or mr. hide . accordingly i did shew it to a gentleman who was to give it to my lord clarendon , but before he could get to him , i was taken . now , my lord , i hope what i did was with a designe to serve the king in discovering what was designed against him , according as i was employed , though both the secretaries are so unkind as not to declare it ; when i know i am in the right , i am not ashamed to speak it , though my life be losed upon it , and i refer it to the gentlemen of the jurie : i was taken before i could come to the speech of my lord clarendon . next , i hope , gentlemen of the jurie , you will consider these are great persons that i have to do with ; and where great state-matters are at the bottom , it is hard to make them tell any thing but what is for their advantage : and so i am left in a sad condition . but , my lord , in the next place , i think 't is impossible for any jurie to find me guiltie , without prejudging of those laws which are not to be judged by any jurie or inferiour court : for if they judge me and bring me in guiltie , 't is murder in them ; and let the bench tell them what they will , 't is of that dang●rous consequence , that it overthrows the government . my lord , here is the impeachment of the house of commons , and here is a copie of the votes of the commons thereupon ; and though they be not laws , yet they are such declarations of the parliament , as that afterwards no other court ought to meddle with that matter ; and the inferiour courts do not use to meddle with parliament-matters : and so , gentlemen , you will lay at your own doors what would lie at theirs , if you meddled not . for though the court have over-ruled my plea , yet the matter is plain before you now who are my judges , and my bloud will lie at your doors , and you must answer it if you do me not justice . and there is no insufficiencie of a plea , as to matter of law , will excuse you in point of fact ; and you are obliged , as you will answer the contrarie to god and your consciences , to do me right . and i hope your lordship and the jurie will take particular notice of this : i have been a close prisoner and had no manner of help , nothing at all allowed me to refresh my memorie ; which if i had had means to do as i ought , i could say a great deal more : but this i insist upon , if the gentlemen of the jurie do bring me in guiltie and convict me , they do shed my bloud , and overthrow the law and course of parliaments : whereas if they bring me in not guiltie , my impeachment ●●ands good still , and i am liable to answer that impeachment before the parliament ; and i hope you will consider the persons i have had to deal with , and that it cannot be made so plain as in matters wherein we deal with common persons . i submit to what you shall think fit . l. c. j. you have done , mr. fitzharris . fitzharris . my lord , i have done ; onely i would examine one gentleman if he were here , but he does not appear . but here 's a copie of the impeachment and votes of the house of commons , i desire i may deliver them to the jury . l. c. j. no , no ; that can't be . fitzharris . sir william waller does declare upon oath , that for this very thing i was impeached by the house of commons ; and that i desire them to take notice of . mr. serj. jefferies . therefore you are not guilty : is that the consequence ? mr. soll. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , you have heard our evidence , and what the prisoner hath said . the crime for which he is accused , that is high-treason , and 't is treason in conspiring the death of the king , in endeavouring to raise rebellion here , and that in order to destroy the king and the liberty of all the people , and bring them under the slavery of the king of france . this is the treason he was indicted for ; and the proof of this treason is very full ; it is proved to you by three positive witnesses , and all men of credit , of whom you cannot have the least suspition . they prove to you , that mr. fitz-harris is the man guilty of this treason ; he was the contriver of it , he was the mover of it first to mr. everard , and he gave him those instructions to pursue those purposes of raising a rebellion here , in order to destroy the king , by contriving a seditious pamphlet to set the people together by the ears ; and he came to him in order to perfect this libel . this is proved by everard , who upon the first motion of it to him , did acquaint mr. smith immediately and sir william waller that such a design was on foot , and desired them to come and be witnesses of it . they both came , and heard the communication between the prisoner and mr. everard to contrive such a libel as hath been opened to you , and they swear it positively . now what defence does the prisoner make to it ? truely i cannot say whether it have more of folly or impudence in it ; for 't is a defence of a strange nature , for it is inconsistent with it self , and shews what a make he is of ; and the latter part is a pursuing the same treason he stands indicted for , which is the rendring the king odious to his people , by those insinuations that he did this by the kings order . the first part of his defence is , i am not guilty , for mr. everard is the man that did contrive it , and he is the author , and it moves from him . now pray consider the parts of your evidence , and see if there be any possibilitie for you to be induced to believe any thing like it . 't is proved by mr. everard positively , that he came to him first ; and when you consider this objection that is made by mr. fitz-harris , and consider on the other side who were the witnesses , and who is the man that makes the objection , you will then see no cause in the world for you to give any credit to it . the prisoner says he was trepan'd into it ; for that , pray consider he is an irish papist , one that hath all along made it his business to defame the proceedings about the popish plot , to ridicule it , to deny that there was ever any such thing , and to laugh at the justice that was executed upon the popish offenders who died for the plot. the witnesses that prove it against him have been zealous prosecutors of the plot , men that have discovered many of those who were guilty of it , and brought them to justice ; men that have been material evidences upon the discoverie . mr. smith is a man that spoke materially in the trial of my lord stafford , and for which service , i believe , the papists , and mr. fitz-harris himself , owe him little thanks . as for sir william waller , all men know how busie and active he hath been to bring in men that were guilty of the plot , and he hath suffered for it . now if you can believe that mr. smith and sir william waller should be guilty of a trepan that was to be put upon fitz-harris , a man of that perswasion you hear of , ( and you must believe that , or you cannot believe the defence the prisoner makes ) i leave it to you . mr. everard could do nothing alone , why then sir william waller must be guilty of this contrivance , and of setting of fitz-harris on work and everard too : but this is so unlikely a storie , that if there were any to assert any such thing ▪ you could not possibly give any credit to it . but when you consider what hath been proved , and what hath been shewed you under the hand of fitz-harris himself , then there is no room i am sure to doubt . they do positively swear , both smith and sir william waller , they heard him own that he had given instructions to everard . they prove to you that he mended this libel in several places , they not coming up to the instructions he had before given . they prove part of the libel written with his own hand , and that is treason enough ; for that is certainly treason , that 't is the undoubted right of the people to dethrone the king. i never heard of that doctrine any where but among the papists , and 't is a papist that preaches that doctrine to you now . as this is an evidence in a matter beyond any contradiction in the world , his own hand-writing of part , and his owning the giving the instructions ; so there is no room in the world for you to believe that ever he was drawn into this by everard ; or that he was the man that was the original contriver of it , and trepan'd him into it . but it appears plainly upon the proof , that it moved originally from fitz-harris ; that it was the malice of his heart that promoted it ; and that the contrivance was how to raise a rebellion here . for when he had read part of the libel , and everard told him that it was treason , why , said he , i meant it so ; and the more treason , the better ; the more odious you make the king to be , the more likely 't is to raise the people into a rebellion ; and the sooner you raise the people into a rebellion , the more like you are to accomplish the design of bringing the people into slavery to the french king , and so at once to destroy all libertie and propertie , and all that is sacred . no body can believe but mr. fitz-harris is guilty of this libel and contrivance to dethrone the king , and raise a rebellion here , as the witnesses have sworn . now as you cannot possibly doubt but this moves from mr. fitz harris , so then consider the inconsistencie of the second part of his defence , and the impudency of it too . for as before he pretended he was drawn into it by mr. everard , so now he would make you believe he did not do it out of a traiterous designe , for that he was employed about these affairs ; and this comes under the title of secret service ; and he would fain have it that you should believe the king should hire him to raise a rebellion against himself , to defame himself , and to incense the minds of the people against him . and this must be the service that he is put upon ; he had no traiterous intent in himself , but he was to trepan all the lords that stood zealously up for the protestant religion and property , and that by direction from whom ? from the king , whom fitz-harris would have all people to believe to be a papist ; and he would have people believe that he is an innocent man , that he was onely employed upon such a special piece of service ; that the king should be at great pains to employ mr. fitz-harris to destroy himself and the whole nation , and to stain his whole family ; and upon what reasons would he have you to belive it ? as first , you observed how inconsistent it is with the former part of his defence , that he was trepann'd into it ; now he did not do it from mr. everard , nor with a treasonable intention . but certainly this is a treason that nothing can be said to palliate or excuse , and i am sure he hath said nothing will do it . yet all the defence he hath made has tended that way : for though he have not arrived to the confidence to say such a thing is , yet he hath insinuated by the method of his proceedings , that he would fain have such a thing believed , and that the man had no traiterous designe in it . now what evidence hath he produced for it ? he hath produced to you evidence that he hath had money from the king , and hath been sometimes at the dutchess of portsmouth's . that he had money from the king is true , but it little became him to mention it , for it was charity to relieve a man in necessity that was ready to starve , and was forced to go all the ways to work he could to move compassion ; he urged the sufferings of his wives father ; you heard the petition read as a ground for supply ; and he hath so far prevailed upon the kings charity ( which he hath abused ) as to have a sum of money given him , and he hath had the benefit of it ; but he hath made a very ill return for it ; for the thanks he hath given to the king for this his charity , is to flie in the face of him , his familie , and the government : he hath endeavoured to raise a rebellion , and when he is brought to his trial , he continues to defame the king , which is an aggravation of his treason if possible . and now having no proof in the world for these malicious insinuations , and all the witnesses that he hath called to make out what he would fain have believed , and dares not mention , ( not proving any such thing ) you will have little reason , gentlemen , to believe any thing that comes from him , especially if you consider the nature of the libel it self , it is impossible this man should ever be set on work to contrive such a thing as this , to defame the king and all his family , to raise a rebellion , to overthrow all religion , liberty , and the king himself ; it is impossible to be believed . but i fear i press too much upon you , as if i did suspect there could be men in this kingdom so bad as to believe such a malicious insinuation . gentlemen , i leave it to you ; you hear what our evidence is , three witnesses that positively swear this treason against the prisoner . now as you have this positive evidence on the one side , so you have no colour of evidence to the contrary ; and 't is impossible for you not to find him guilty . it is to deny the light of the day ; and 't is a thing of that consequence , that all ages , when they hear of it , will say that there is no justice to be had , if an english jury do not find a verdict according to their evidence . for what security hath a man for his life and estate , if twelve substantial men of a jury shall dare to go against plain and full evidence ? 't is all the security an english-man has , for all he enjoys , that he is to pass through the hands of twelve honest men of his own country . and if it be possible for a jury to go against evidence so plain as this is , i say , no man is safe in his life or estate . mr. serj. jefferies . gentlemen , i desire to take notice of what mr. fitzharris was pleased to conclude withal . he says , his bloud is to be required at your hands ; and therefore he would fain by that means insinuate you out of your ●onsciences . but i think if you consider the circumstances that have been given , and all the evidence , it will be impossible for men that have any respect to their credit and their consciences , to acquit this gentleman . in the first place , it is known , and it hath been given in proof to induce the probabilitie of the matter evidenced against the prisoner at the bar , that he is a known roman catholick ; they are all protestants , and good protestants ; and you are all protestants too . and then the case goes thus far further ; you that are protestants must take it upon your oaths ▪ that these gentlemen have sworn false , and convict them of wilful perjurie ; and if you do convict them , it must be upon the bare allegation of a papist : and i hope never to live to see the day that men that are of good credit , and protestants , shall by an allegation ( though never so confidently affirmed at the bar ) be presumed to be guiltie of perjurie . so that i say , my lord , besides the baseness and venome of this impudent libel , which certainly no honest man in the world will give the least countenance to , here is evidence enough from himself ; and you cannot believe it proceeds from any direction from the crown ( as this man would insinuate , ) and therefore he hath given us the greatest evidence by his libelling at the bar : and he hath not onely libelled the crown , but he hath called up some witnesses on purpose to libel the rest of his own . and then i hope you will take notice how he did insinuate with mr. everard at the beginning ; when you were in the french king's service , said he , and have been neglected ever since you left it : if you will come and joyn with me , without peradventure you may get encouragement fitter than that poor and mean way that you are reduced to by embracing the protestant interest . he gives him a method likewise to walk by : he thought him the person that had writ some pamphlets before , and therefore was fit for his purpose , and ought to be encouraged . and he does tell you the words not onely against the present government , but that which every good protestant must needs abhor and tremble at ; he bids him take care to libel the whole familie . he tells him withal , you must be sure to say that the late king of blessed memorie was concerned even in the irish rebellion ; and that this king hath promoted those persons that his father had countenanced for that action : and he tells him the names of those persons that were so promoted . after this is done , what does mr. everard do ? he goes and makes a discoverie : he tells the circumstances and the persons , to whom , when : and the persons he made that discoverie to , do in every circumstance agree with time , place , and all . the first night this appointment was , i hope you will remember , that when mr. everard had so placed that gentleman against whom there is not the least word said or imagined to finde fault with him , he takes notice of the instructions ; owns that he had given him instructions ; and takes particular notice of one passage , that when mr. everard said , but there may be danger in them , is not this treason ? the prisoner made answer , the more treason the better . aye , but then this is dangerous , how shall i venture upon such matters ? why have you not my hand in it ? i am as guiltie as you , and in as much danger . what then was the reward ? there was to be at present fortie guinnies , and an annual pension ; but to whom was mr. fitzharris to discover this ? not to the king , but to the french embassadour , and the conf●ssor was to be the man that was to give the reward ; flanders was first to be subdued , and the parts beyond the seas , and then engl●nd would be but a morsel for them , they could take that in the way . all this was done , which is plainly sworn by witness that had a place made a purpose for him to over-hear all that passed . and , my lord , for the next witness there is sir william waller ; there is this , besides what is sworn , agreeing in circumstance : he tells you both , to their very money , that it was fortie somewhat , but he cannot say guinnies ; and he tells you something of the pension , a great many thousand crowns ; and he tells you particularly of that circumstance of the french confessor and the french embassadour . besides all this , does not sir william waller tell you this very thing , that he espi'd him with a pen and ink , that he gave a note of the libel it self , and he heard him give the directions ? and when he came into the room , he saw the ink fresh upon the paper ; and when he heard him give directions for the alteration of particular words , he said , you have not worded it according to my mind in such and such particular places . but , my lord , there is this venome in it further to be taken notice of , that he gave his instructions to draw it so , as that it might best take effect according to his intention : for when mr. everard thought it might do well to make it with thou and thee , as though it should be the desi●ne of the quakers , he said , no , by no means ; but put it in 〈◊〉 the phrase , as if it was the designe of all the protestant 〈◊〉 and so by that means would draw the odium upon them , and bring them in danger as well as others . and this is confirmed too by sir william waller ; so that in every circumstance he hath snewed the venome of his design . but in the last place , which surel● the gentlemen of the jury will not forget what sir william waller said , that fitzharris did say , i have taken care already to disperse abundance of libels amongst our partie : and when everard told him of a libel that was some while before , he said , he had seen that a great while ago , and there might be somewhat in it to the purpose . and for the answer that hath been given to it , my lord , i think it does not bear any sort of relation to the charge that is upon him : for whatsoever discourse , or whatsoever he hath urged , is not much to his purpose . he hath brought here a noble-man ; but after all , i would put him in mind of one thing that noble-man said , he did believe he came to him in the name of one that sent him not : and so will every body say that hath heard the evidence ; for all his witnesses do positively deny that they ever knew of any such matters as he speaks of . and now , my lord , i could be very glad if this gentleman ( instead of saying as he hath said ) would have come as soon as he had this libel from everard , and discovered it immediately to some-body himself before he had carried it on , as everard did before the thing was perfected . and so , gentlemen , we do think upon this evidence we have left you without all manner of excuse , it being impossible , upon such a proof as this is : and considering the nature and venome of the libel it self , the base venomous malicious instigations he made use of to effect it , and the ends for which it was done , to bring in the french to set us together by the ears , to render the king odious to his people ; and the person 't is acted by , a known irish papist ; i cannot doubt of the issue : and i do hope when i see so many honest gentlemen and protestants at the bar , they will be loth to forfeit their own souls to eternal damnation , to save a man that is guiltie of such a treason as this . l. c. j. have you done , gentlemen ? sir geo. jefferies . yes . l. c. j. then look you , gentlemen of the jurie ; here is mr. fitzharris indicted for treason against the king , and 't is for endeavouring to take away his life , to make him odious to his subjects , to incite them to a rebellion , and to raise arms here in this kingdom against our king our soveraign . and by the indictment it is said that he hath declared these endeavours and these intentions , by causing a scandalous and evil pamphlet or libel to be written , with an intent to be dispersed through the kingdom . the words of the libel you have heard particularly read ; some of them are taken out and mentioned in this indictment . mr. fitzharris hath been arraigned , and hath pleaded not guiltie ; and you are to trie the single matter before you , whether mr. fitzharris be guiltie of this treason . that this is treason , and contains a treasonable matter , gentlemen , is so plain , as no body living can doubt it : but it is a treason of as high a nature as peradventure ever was in the kingdom of england , and tends as much to that which would be the destruction both of the king and kingdom . the king's life , all our lives , all we have that is dear to us , or of any advantage or avail in the world , are concerned in this . for what does it tend to ? it tends to a popular insurrection , to raise the people up in arms , that like a deluge would over ▪ run and sweep away all . it is to undo the government and all order in the kingdom , and to destroy the life and being of all that is good amongst us . amore virulent and villanous book certainly was never written ; nor any thing that tended more to sedition , or to incite the people to a rebellion : such a book as peradventure no well-govern'd kingdom ever heard of the like . it tends to defame the king and all his ancestors , and to blast all that shall come after him , to raise us into a tumult . and what is all this to do ? to settle the roman catholick religion amongst us . and this is such a piece of the art of the jesuits , which peradventure hath out-gone all they have done before . it seems to be their hand directly , and we are all concerned as english-men to take care of such villanies . this is the nature of the treason that is comprised in this book . whether mr. fitzharris was the author , or directer , or contriver of this book , is the question before you . ( for plainly ( without any suppose ) the book contains in it as high a treason as ever was . ) and as to that , gentlemen , you must consider that this appears evidently to be a designe of the roman catholick partie ; 't is a jesuitical designe : for this is that they aim at , to confound all things , that they may fish in troubled waters . and you see they have found out an apt instrument , an irish papist , one that hath been all-along continually concerned with them , and intermedled in several of these plots and papers . gentlemen , the evidence that is given here against him is by three persons , and there is great evidence from the matter that is produced , besides those persons . there is mr. everard does declare to you the whole of this , and mr. fitzharris's application to him to write this book . he tells you the intention of it , and he gives you the very grounds upon which this was to be written ; that is , to raise sedition , that was the first instruction ; to raise a sedition in the kingdom , and this was to busie us at home , that the french king might get flanders and the low countries , while we are confounded at home : and then the catholicks have their game to play , and carry all before them . look you , gentlemen , mr. everard is so cautious , that he walks not alone in the case , but with a great deal of prudence declares it to others , that they may be witnesses in the case for him . mr. smith does agree in all things for the first night that mr. everard hath declared , how that he heard the directions owned as given by mr. fitzharris for the writing this book , and he heard the designe of it , he heard there was a reward promised to him for the doing of it , and he tells you some of the instructions . the next night sir william waller was present ; and he tells you all the instructions of that night , and that fitzharris owned them , that he gave those instructions in the private consult . but that that is not to be answered , gentlemen , is his own instructions in writing ; what can be said to that ? if you were doubtful of the credit of these gentlemen , yet mr. fitzharris's own instructions in writing under his hand , are an evidence beyond all controul in the world that he gave those directions ; and these are treason , that is plain . and therefore it does seem to be as strong an evidence against mr. fitzharris of this treason , as peradventure ever was given against a traytor . there is not any one witness that stands single , but there are two to each night ; and his own instructions written by himself do not stand upon the evidence of a single witness , for he owned it in the presence of three witnesses : so then a stronger evidence cannot be given that he was the author and director of this book . then , gentlemen , you must consider what he says for himself in excuse of this horrid treason that these witnesses seem so fully to fix upon him . the first witness he brings is dr. oates , and he does tell you , that having some discourse with everard , everard should say , this was a designe of the court , and was to be put into some lords , and i think into some parliament-mens pockets ; and then they were to be apprehended . i think this is dr. oates's testimony . mr. everard is here upon his oath , and he testifies no such thing in the world : 't is easie for one to come and say , i heard a man say so ; perhaps he said it by way of conjecture ▪ but that is no answer to direct proof . mr. sheriff cornish is the next witness , and he says , he had some discourse with the king , and the king should say , he thought mr. fitzharris had been an honest man , and had given him some money . mr. sheriff cornish . no , my lord , the king said he took him to be an ill man. l. c. j. then it seems i was mistaken ; his majestie did not tell him he took fitzharris to be an honest man , but an ill man. but that he had formerly some money of the king upon pretence of doing him some service , now that brings it out what the kings meaning was : for it seems there had been begg'd some money for him , and the king at my lady portsmouth's desire , by way of charitie , gave him some little matter of money ; he boasting and telling the king he could do him some service . you see what manner of service it is ●e would have done for him and the kingdom . then as to all the rest of his evidence , there is mrs. wall and my lady dutchess of portsmouth ; and he hath examined them concerning the money he hath received , and they both declare upon what ground that money was given : it was given , they tell you , for a gratuitie from the king to him ; and upon his boasting , says mrs. wall , that he could do the king service , and bring over persons to his interest . i think there is no other witness very material : for as for mr. bulstrode's evidence , it signifies nothing at all ; it is not material for him or against him in the case : a discourse about delivering a petition to the king from his wife . now , gentlemen , you must consider what ill use this gentleman designes to make of the kings charitie and favour to him ; he gave him some money to relieve his wants , and now would he interpret this and insinuate this to be given for ill purposes , for to make him trepan his subjects ; which is another piece of virulencie that these papists always exercise against the king ; they always make an ill use of his best actions , and an ill interpretation of them . for , gentlemen , can it be believed that the king would ever designe such a thing as this is , to blacken his family for ever , to stir up all his subjects against him , to endanger his crown and kingdom , and all that he has in the world ? and all this to what purpose ? no colourable designe can be made of it . this is such a thing to excuse such a villany , as never was heard of , by wresting the kings charitie and generositie to such ill purposes ; but that some men have the confidence to do any thing . i must leave it to you . here are three witness his own hand to these instructions , and his making a declaration that it was not treasonable enough , nor virulent enough . all these things are strong evidences in the case . and if you believe these witnesses and his own hand-writing , 't is a plain case you must find him guilty . fitz-harris . may i have libertie to speak one word ? l. c. j. gentlemen , i had forgot one thing . for fear it make an impression in you , because i see he hath inculcated it often and often , and that is , the impeachment that was by the commons house of treason against mr. fitz-harris in the lords house . i must tell you , gentlemen , that is not before you at all ; the matter of that was by way of abatement pleaded to the jurisdiction of this court , and that is now over . you must have no consideration , nor can have any consideration of that now . your question is not whether we have authority to trie this cause , but you are impannell'd and sworn to one point , and that is , whether fitz-harris be guiltie of this treason or not : whether the court have authoritie to do it , is another question proper for our determination , and we have determined it ; but there is nothing of that lies before you in this case . therefore you must not be mis●ed with any thing that he talks so fondly of concerning the impeachment , or concerning his bloud lying at your doors , that surely will signifie nothing to men of understanding at all . mr. johnson . my lord , 't is our unhappiness to come before you under these circumstances . we have understood there is a vote of the commons of england in parliament , that says this man shall not be tried in any inferiour court ; now we take our selves to be the judges of this man in part under your lordship's directions . mr. serj. maynard . you are not judges of it , you are onely to trie the fact . mr. johnson . i onely offer my sense , and if the other gentlemen think otherwise they will speak it . i think the office of a juror is such , that it is within his power to acquit or condemn according to the evidence as it lies within his own conscience . now if we should acquit this man , ( we have no assurance we shall acquit him , onely suppose it ) then there is nothing against him but what lies in a parliamentary way , and we shall forejudge their cause . therefore , i say , i do not know how far by law we are compellable to give a verdict in this case upon him . l. c. j. look you , gentlemen , we would consult your satisfaction as much as we can in all things ; and 't is reasonable that if you have any doubts you should propose them to us , and to that purpose we are to give you satisfaction , and will in all things . i must tell you , as to the jurisdiction of the court , that is not at all before you ; and as to the vote of the house of commons alleadged by him , if any such there be , that cannot alter the laws of the land , nor justifie any of us in departing from our duties , no more than if a letter or mandate should be gained from the prince or chief magistrate of this kingdom to any of us in derogation of justice , ( as it 's possible by surprize to be ) we are to take notice of the one , no more than the other . we are upon our oaths to do justice according to the laws of the land : you likewise are upon your oaths , and sworn to do justice in your sphere ; and your oath is , that you shall enquire truly whether he be guilty or not ; and if he be guilty in your judgments , you can no more spare him than you can condemn an innocent person . it never was pretended by any man , nor will it be asserted by an● man that understands himself or the constitution of the government of this kingdom , that a vote of the house of commons can change the law of the land. it cannot excuse us , if we deny to try a man that is brought before us ; nor will it excuse you , being under an oath , justly to try him . if you should ( because the ●ommons house have voted that he shall not be tried ) declare that man innocent , who in your own judgement you believe to be nocent ; you nor we are not to consider what will be the consequence of this , if this man be acquitted or condemned ; that is not before us . you and we too are tyed precisely to the laws of the land , and by that law must this man be judged . as to our parts , we must do it as to the law , and you as to the fact. but i 'll tell you further , gentlemen , this doubt was moved to us by the grand jury , before the bill was found ; we had an intimation that they would move such a doubt to us as seems to be your doubt now . therefore for their satisfaction , and the taking away any scruple that might be in the case , all the judges of england did meet together , and seriously debate the matter and substance of all this ; and it was not our opinion of this court onely , but the opinion of all the judges of england , that we had a jurisdiction to try this man. this we have told you , because we would satisfie all men to go on fairly in the things that are before them . therefore that being put out of the case , you must consider of your verdict , and give it in upon this tryal . mr. johnson . we do not doubt , my lord , but your opinion in this case will indempnifie us from any future charge by the commons of england . but it lies before us to consider what we are bound to do in the case . mr. just . jones . gentlemen , i suppose you do not doubt but we are all of the same opinion . it is no marvel indeed to hear a man that stands in fitzharris's place , to object any thing that may cast a mist before your eyes . and yet it cannot but be wondered at too , that when three protestant witnesses have sworn precisely , he should have the confidence to urge any thing of this nature ; he wh● appears by the indictment it self , and the proofs made upon the ●●dictment , to have endeavoured to destroy all the laws of england , all magna charta , all our liberty and our religion , and to inslave us to the king of france : for that appears pla●nly the design , if you have any credit to the witnesses that are produced : he that would have pulled down all that is sacred amongst us , is so zealous for the authority of the house of commons . we have all of us a great reverence for the house of commons , and for their opinions ; but as my lord hath told you , so i tell you my opinion , that a vote of the house of commons does not in the least sort alter the law : for indeed if it did , it were to give a legislative power to the commons , which does onely belong to the king , the house of lords , and the commons together . and , gentlemen , though mr. fitzharris says , if he be acquitted here by you , yet he should remain to be questioned again in parliament ; there is no man in the world can doubt , if he were acquitted here , and were questioned in parliament , but he would say , he hath been upon his legal tryal by his peers , and that he hath been acquitted by his peers upon solemn evidence . but , gentlemen , you are to consider what is your business : your office is to be jurors , not to be judges ; you are not to take upon you any such authority . your commission is your oath , and by that oath you are sworn to inquire whether the prisoner be guilty , as he is indicted , or not : if you , as english-men , can say he is not guilty , let it lie upon your consciences , and the danger of the king's bloud and life be upon you . mr. just . dolben . gentlemen , i desire to speak one word to you , to let you know i am of the same opinion with my lord , and with my brother ; and i cannot but wonder at you for making this scruple : for if there were any thing in what you have said , it concerns us that are judges , and not you at all ; for 't is a matter of jurisdiction : and whether we have a jurisdiction or not , we must satisfie our selves that we have a commission to do it ; it concerns not you . do you but consider the oath you have taken , that you will well and truly trie , and true deliverance make betwixt our soveraign lord the king , and the prisoner at the bar , according to your evidence : and you have sworn a true verdict to give upon it , and do you now scruple whether you should give any verdict or no , when but even now you have sworn you will give a verdict ? if any such thing as this had been in your heads , ( for it might be then in your heads as well as now ) why did not you speak of it before you took your oath ? you now lie under the obligation of an oath to give a verdict according to your evidence , and would you acquit him against such an evidence as hath been given ? for besides what sir william waller , smith , and everard have deposed , the very note sworn by sir philip lloyd and mr. bridgman to be owned by fitzharris as his hand , contains treason enough in it , if there were no more : therefore there must be something more in it , than for the sake of such an unreasonable scruple . mr ▪ just . raymond . i am of the same opinion , truly . mr. johnson . my lord , i took the liberty to speak it now ; i could not speak it before : for i was not then to inquire what i was to be sworn to , nor could i know what would be the matter that would come before us , till we were sworn . therefore i humbly beg your pardon that i made the motion . l. c. j. we are not at all troubled at any thing you have said ; do not mistake us , we do not take it ill from you that you acquaint us with your scruples : we are ready to give all satisfaction we can , to any that are concerned before us ; therefore we are no way troubled that you made any such scruple , but have given you a fair answer to it . mr. johnson . my lord , i desire a note of the names of the jury . l. c. j. give it him , mr. astrey , or else the croud is so great he may not know them . then the jury withdrew for half an hour , and at their return being called over and appearing , the clerk took the verdict . cl. of cr. edward fitzharris , hold up thy hand . ( which he did . ) look upon the prisoner ; how say you , is he guilty of the high-treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty , &c. l. c. j. i think you have found a very good verdict , and upon very full and strong evidence . mr. soll. gen. will your lordship please to give judgment ? l. c. j. we will take time for that . mr. soll. gen. will you give a rule to have him brought up to morrow ? l. c. j. move us another day for it . fitzharris . my lord , i hope i may have the liberty of my wife and some friends now to come to me ▪ l. c. j. any friend i think may come to you : but , mr. fitzharris , you must be modest in the using that liberty we give you . you have heretofore abused your liberty ; i do not love to exasperate things to one in your circumstances , but you must be prudent and careful , knowing your own condition , that you do nothing prejudicial to the king or kingdom . upon wednesday june . . edward fitzharris was brought to the bar of the court of kings ▪ bench , to receive his sentence . mr. att. gen. my lord , i humbly pray your judgment against mr fitzharris , who is convicted of high-treason . silence proclaimed during judgment . cl. of cr. edward fitzharris , hold up thy hand . thou hast been indicted and arraigned of high-treason , and hast thereunto pleaded not guilty , and for thy trial put thy self upon god and thy countrie , and thy countrie have found thee guiltie : what can●t thou say for thy self , why judgment of death should not be given against thee , and execution awarded according to law ? fitzharris . my lord , i think it will be prejudicial to the kings service , that sentence should pass before i have made an end of the evidence i have given in against my lord howard . l. c. j. mr. fitzharris , we can take no notice of any thing of that nature . when you are asked what you can say why judgment should not pass against you , it is , what legal matter you have , what matter in law , to excuse your self from that judgment ? for this is nothing , the saying you are to give evidence ; we know nothing of that , it will not delay judgment a minute . and for what you say it will be prejudicial to the kings service , it is the king that prays judgment against you by his attorney . fitzharris . i beg the kings mercie for transportation , my lord. l. c. j. we can do nothing in that . fitzharris . nor to give me time before my execution ? i can say no more , my lord. l. c. j. look you , mr. fitzharris , you have been here indicted for a very great and hainous treason , a treason that is in truth of the first magnitude ; for it is a treason that tends to the rooting up the whole government of this kingdom , and the destroying of us all ; plainly , both of the king and of all his subjects . it does not onely destroy the peace and quiet , but it tends in truth to the utter destruction of the whole kingdom , and to bring us into a confusion and disorder , never to be avoided or retrieved , if your designes should have taken effect . you have been here arraigned , and put your self upon the countrie , and they have found you gultie of this treason : it is a thing you should well consider ; for certainly , you have contracted to your self a mightie guilt in such a thing as this is . you have endeavoured the destruction of the king , and in such a way as must have in truth destroyed all his good subjects together with him . your designe hath been to excite the people to a rebellion , and a popular insurrection , that would have swept away all like a deluge , if it had taken effect . in truth it is a treason against all mankind , the stirring up of the people is ; it is of evil example to all mankind , the stirring up of the people against their natural lord , to whom we owe all allegiance and obedience . but your designe in this was by setting the people of england together by the ears , to bring in the roman catholick religion upon such as should be left . it seems you are an irish papist , and sucked in very ill principles where you have lived ; and you have here endeavoured to do as much mischief in this kingdom by that treasonable book , as lies in any one mans power perhaps to do . it is a mercie and a happiness , that it hath pleased god in his providence to deliver us out of your hands ; for this was your designe , if you could have brought it about : but it hath pleased god now to bring you to justice for it , and the judgement of the law must pass upon you . now that judgment is this : you must return to the tower from whence you came , and from thence you must be drawn through the streets of the city of london to tyburn ; there you shall be hang'd by the neck , but cut down before you are dead ; your bowels shall be taken out and burnt before your face , your head cut off , and your body divided into four quarters to be disposed as shall please the king ; and i pray god to have mercie upon your soul , to give you a sight of your sin , and repentance for it . fitzharris . my lord , i hope i may have the libertie of my wife to come to me , and any friend . l. c. j. you have that liberty already . fitzharris . no , not without the presence of a warder . l. c. j. we will not restrain them as to that , let them come to you . officer . there is no rule of court for it , my lord. l. c. j. we will not restrain any thing of your wife 's coming , there is no rule to restrain her ; but let him have that liberty that other prisoners in his condition usually have had in the tower , his wife to come to him , or any other ●riend or protestant minister whatsoever . officer . pray let it be put into the rule of court , my lord. l. c. j. we make no rule , there does not need any . look you , mr. fitzharris , we lay no restraint upon your wife or any other friend ; but if your wife be in another condition that she can't come to you , we can't meddle with that . mr. just . jones . we are not to deliver her out of prison . l. c. j. no , we make no rule , but take off the hands of the court from restraining any one to come to you . then the prisoner was taken away , and in pursuance of this sentence , the last day of the said trinity-term , being the th of june . a writ issued out of the court of kings-bench directed to the lieutenant of the tower of london , reciting the judgment , and commanding him to deliver the prisoner to the sheriff of middlesex upon friday the first day of july next following , to be executed according to the sentence . which writ followeth in these words . carolus secundus dei gratia angl. scot. franc. & hibern . rex fidei defensor , &c. loc. tenen . turris nostrae london . salutem . cum nos in cur. nostra coram nobis consider averimus quod edwardus fitzharris nuper de parochia s. martini in campis in com. midd. gen. pro quibusdum altis proditionibus unde ipse coram nobis indictat . est , & superinde per quandam juratam patrie inde inter nos & prefat . edwardum capt . convict . & attinct . existit , de turr. nostra london . per medium civitatis nostrae london . pred . usque ad furcas de tyborne trahatur , & super furcas illas ibidem suspendatur , & vivens ad terram prosternatur , ac interiora sua extra ventrem suum capiantur , ipsoque vivente comburentur ; et quod caput ejus amputetur , quodque corpus ejus in quatnor partes dividatur , & quod caput & quarter . ill . ponantur ubi nos ea assignare voluerimus : ideo tibi precipimus sirmit . injungend . quod die veneris primo die julii prox . futur . apud tower-hill cum vic. midd. convenias , & pred . edwardum fitzharris eidem vic. midd. deliberari facias , ut idem vic. executionem de eo in forma pred . sieri faciat , prout inde nobis respondere volueris . teste francisco pemberton apud westm . xxij o die junii , anno regni nostri xxxiij o. per cur. astry . and another writ at the same time issued out of the same court , directed to the sheriff of middlesex to receive the prisoner from the lieutenant of the tower at the time appointed , and to execute him according to the sentence . which writ was in these words . carolus secundus dei gratia angl. scot. franc. & hibern . rex fidei defensor , &c. vic. midd. salutem . cum nos in cur. nostra coram nobis consider averimus quod edwardus fitzharris nuper de parochia s. martini in campis in com. midd. gen. pro quibusdam altis proditionibus unde ipse 〈◊〉 nobis indictat . est , & superinde per quandam jur. patrie inde inter nos & prefat . edwardum capt . convict . & attinct . existit , de turr. nostra london . per medium civitatis nostrae london . pred . usque ad furcas de tyborne trahatur , & super furcas illas ibidem suspendatur , & vivens ad terram prosternatur , ac interiora sua extra ventrem suum capiantur , ipsoque vivente comburentur ; et quod caput ejus amputetur , quodque corpus ejus in quatuor partes dividatur , & quod caput & quarter . ill . ponantur ubi nos ea assignare voluerimus : ideo tibi precipimus firmiter injungen . quod cum loc. tenen . turr. nostrae london . pred . die veneris primo die julii prox . futur . apud tower-hill convenias , & ipsum edwardum fitzharris de prefat . loc. tenen . recipias , & executionem de eo in forma pred . facias prout decet . teste francisco pemberton apud westm . xxij o die junii anno regni nostri xxxiij o. per cur. astry . all which was accordingly performed on the day , and at the place appointed . finis . the tryal and condemnation of dr. oliver plunket titular primate of ireland . the third of may , in easter , car. secund. reg dr. oliver plunket was arraigned at the king's-bench-bar for high-treason , for endeavouring and compassing the kings death , and to levy war in ireland , and to alter the religion there , and to introduce a forreign power : and at his arraignment , before his plea , he urged for himself , that he was indicted of the same high-treason in ireland and arraigned , and at the day for his tryal the witnesses against him did not appear , and therefore he desired to know if he could be tried here for the same fact ? the court told him , that by a statute made in this kingdom , he might be tryed in the court of kings ▪ bench , or by commission of oyer and terminer in any part of england for facts arising in ireland , and that this arraignment there ( he being never tried upon it ) was not sufficient to exempt him from being tried here ; because till a tryal be passed , and there be a conviction or acquittal thereupon , an arraignment , barely , is no plea : for in such cases the party is not put twice in danger of his life , which only is the thing the law in such cas●s looks after to prevent . he then desired time for his witnes●es , which they told him he could not do till after plea pleaded ; whereupon he pleaded not guilty , and put himself upon the country for his tryal ; and after some consideration had about time to be allowed him to bring his witnesses from ireland , the court appointed the day for his tryal , to be the first wednesday in next term , which was full five weeks time . and accordingly on wednesday the th of june , in trinity term , he was brought to his tryal , and proclamation , as in such cases is usual , being made , it proceeded thus . cl. of cr. oliver plunket hold up thy hand , those good men which thou shalt hear called and personally appear , are to pass between , &c. plunket . may it please your lords●ip , i have been kept close prisoner for a long time , a year and an half in prison ; when i came from ireland hither , i was told by persons of good repute , and a councellor at law , that i could not be tryed here ; and the reasons they gave me were , that first the statute of hen. . and all other statut●s made here , were not received in ireland ▪ unless there were an express mention made of ireland in them : so that none we●e received there but such as were before poyning's act. so i came with that perswasion that i could not be tr●ed here , till at my arraignment your lordships told me it was not so and that i must ●e tried here , though there was no express mention made of ireland . now , my lord , upon that , whereas my witnesses were in ireland , and i knew nothing of it , and the records upon which i very much relye were in ireland , your lordship was pleased to give me time from the th of the last month to this day ; and in the mean time , as your lordship had the affidavit here yesterday , and as captain richardson can testifie , i have not dispatched only one , ●ut two to ireland , into the counties of armagh , dublin , &c. and where there were records very material to my def●nce ; but the clerk of the crown would not give me any copy of any record at-all , unless he had some express order from your lordship : so that whether it were that they were mistaken , or wilfully refused , i could not get the records which were very material for me . for in some of those records some of those that accuse me were convicted of high crimes , and others were outlawed and imprisoned , and broke prison ; and there were other records also of excommunication against some of them , and i could not get the records , unless your lordship would instruct me in some way or other , how i can get over them that are most material for my defence . the servants that i sent h●nce , and took shipping for ireland , were two days at se● , and cast back again , and from thence w●re forced to go to holly head , and from holly-head in going to dublin they were thirt●●● or fourteen days , the winds were so contra●y ; and then my s●r ●nt went about to go into the county of armagh and derry , that were a hundred miles from dublin , and meath , and other places ; so that in so short a time , my lord , it was morally impossible for them to have brought the witnesses over ; and those that were ready to have come , would nor stir at-all , unless they had a pass from hence , because some of them were roman catholicks , and they had heard that here some were taken prisoners that were roman catholicks , and that none ought to come without a pass ; and th●y being witnesses against the king , they might be clapped up here , and brought into very ill condition : so they sent one over that made affidavit . l. c. j. it was the affidavit was read here yesterday . plunket . so that , my lord , i conceive your lordship will think i did it n●t oat of any intent to put off my tryal , for captain richard●●n is here , who knows that i writ by the post , and desired them to come with the pacquet-boat , and they writ over to the captain after th●y were landed ; so that i depended upon the wind and the weather for my witnesses , and wanted your lordships order for the records to be brought over , and that their examination might be brought into court , and their own original examination here might be compared with it . so i humbly beg your lordships favour , the case is rare , and scarce happens in five hundred years , that one should be in my circumstances . i am come here where no jury knows me , nor the quality of my adversaries ; if i had been in ireland i would have put my self upon my tryal to morrow without any witnesses , before any protestant jury that knew them and me . and when the orders went over , that i should be tryed in ireland , and that no roman catholick should be upon the jury , and so it was in both the grand and other jury ; yet then when i came to my tryal , after i was arraigned , not one appeared : this is manifest upon the record and can be proved . l. c. j. there was no prosecution of you there . plunket . but , my lord , here is no jury that knows me , or the quality of my adversaries ; for they are not a jury of the neighborhood that know them , and therefore my case is not the same with other cases . though i cannot harbor , nor do not , nor will not , nor ought not , the least conceipt of hard measure and injustice ; yet if i have not full time to bring my records and witnesses altogether , i cannot make my defence . some were there then , some afar off , so that it was a miracle that in six or seven counties they could do so much as they did : but they got in seven or eight of them , y●t there were five or six wanting : therefore i beseech your lordship that i may have time to bring my records and witnesses , and then i will defie all that is upon the earth and und●r the earth to say any thing against me . l c. j. look you , mr. plunket , 't is in vain for you to talk and make this discourse here now ; you must know , that by the laws of this kingdom , when a man is indicted and arraigned of treason or felony , 't is not usual to give such time ; 't is rare that any man hath had such time as you have had , five weeks time to provide your witnesses : if your witnesses are so cautious , and are such persons that they dare not , or will not venture for fear of being apprehended , or will not come into england without such and such cautions , we cannot tell how to help it ▪ we can't furnish you with witnesses , you must look to get your witnesses your self ▪ if we should stay till your witnesses will come , perhaps they will never come here , and so you will escape out of the hands of justice . do not be discouraged in this , the jury are strangers to you peradventure , but they are honest gentlemen , and you shall have no other upon your jury ; and you may be confident , that if there be not some fact proved against you , that may amount to treason , you shall be discharged ; they are persons that understand so much , and we will direct them so much . you shall have as fair a tryal as if you were in ireland ; but for us to stay for your witnesses , or send you back to ireland we cannot do it : therefore you must submit to your tryal . we heard your affidavit yesterday , and we did then tell the gentlemen that moved it , as much as we tell you . you are here to be tryed , look to the jury as they are called , and except against them if you will. plunket . my lord , i desire only to have the favour of time , some time this term. l. c. j. we can't do it . cl. of cr. swear sir john roberts . pl●nket . i humbly present this to your lordship , i am then in eminent danger of my life , if i cannot get ten days to have my witnesses over : i desire i may have but to the one and twentieth of this month , and then if they do not come you may go on . l. c. j. we cannot do it , you have had five weeks time already . plunket . i desire but a few days . cryer . sir john roberts , take the book , look upon the prisoner ; you shall well and truly try , &c. plunket . my lord , i desire to know whether they have been of the juries of langhorn , or the five jesuits , or any that were condemned ? l. c. j. what if they have ? that is no exception . then the jury was sworn , whose names follow . sir john roberts , thomas harriott , henry ashurst , ralph bucknall , richard gowre , richard pagett , thomas earsby , john hayne , thomas hodgkins , james partherich , samuel baker , william hardy . cl. of cr. oliver plunket , hold up thy hand . you of the jury look upon the prisoner and hearken to his charge . he stands indicted by the name of oliver plunket , late of westminster , in the county of middlesex dr. of divinity ▪ for that he as a false traytor against the most illustrious and most excellent prince our sovereign lord , charles the second , by the grace of god ▪ of ●ngland , scotland , france and ireland king , and his natural lord ▪ the fear of god in his heart not having , nor weighing the duty of his al●egiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil ▪ the cordial love , and true and due natural obedience ▪ which true and fait●ful subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , towards him our said sovereign lord the king do and of right ought to bear , utterly withdrawing , and contriving , and with all his might intending the peace and common tranquillity within the kingdom of ireland , as also of this kingdom of england to disturb , and war and rebellion against our said sovereign lord the king in the kingdom of ireland , then being the dominion of our said sovereign lord the king in parts beyond the seas , to st●● up and move , and the government of our said sovereign lord the king there to subvert , and our said sovereign lord the king from his regal power and government there to depose and deprive , and our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , to death and final destruction to bring and put , and the true worship of god within the said kingdom of ireland , by law established and used , to alter to the superstition of the romish church ; the first day of december , in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord charles the second , now king of england , &c. the two and thirtieth , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , at dublin in the kingdom of ireland in parts beyond the seas , with divers other false traitors unknown , traitorously did compass , imagine and intend the killing , death and final destruction of our said sovereign lord the king , and the antient government of his said kingdom of ireland to change , alter , and wholly to subvert , and him our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , from the crown and government of his kingdom of ireland a●oresaid to depose and deprive , and the true protestant religion to extirpate , and war and rebellion against our said sovereign lord the king there to move and levy . and to fulfil and accomplish his said most wicked treasons , and traitorous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid ; he the said oliver plunket , the said first day of december , in the abovesaid two and thirtieth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , with force and arms , &c. at dublin , in the kingdom of ireland , then being the dominion of our said sovereign lord the king in parts beyond the seas , maliciously , devilishly and traitorously did assemble and gather together himself , with divers other traitors unknown , and then and there devilishly , advisedly , maliciously , subtilly and traitorously did consult and agree our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , to death and final destruction to bring , and from his crown and government aforesaid to depose and deprive , and the religion of the romish church into the kingdom of ireland aforesaid to introduce and establish ; and the sooner to fulfil and perfect his said most wicked treasons , and traitorous imaginations and purposes , he the said oliver plunket with divers other false traitors unknown , then and there advisedly , maliciously and traitorously did further consult and agree to contribute , pay and expend divers great sums of money to divers subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , and other persons unknown , to procure th●m the said persons unknown , o●r said sovereign lord the king , that now is , traitorously to kill , and the romish religion into the said kingdom of ireland to introduce and establish . and that he the said oliver plunket and other trait●rs unknown , afterwards , to wit , the said first day of december , in the two and thirtieth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king abovesaid , at dublin aforesaid , in the kingdom of ireland aforesaid , within the dominion of our said sovereign lord the king , with force and arms , &c. unlawfully , maliciously , devilishly , and traitorously did receive , collect , pay and expend divers great sums of money to divers persons unknown , to perswade and induce divers other p●rsons also unknow● , the said false traytors in their said treasons to help and maintain , against the duty of his allegiance , and against the peace of our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statutes in that case made and provided . to this indictment he hath pleaded , not guilty . mr. heath . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , this is an indictment of high-treason against dr. oliver plunket the prisoner at the bar , and it sets forth , that the two and thirtieth year of the king , at dublin in the kingdom of ireland , he did compass and imagine the death of the king , and to deprive the king of his kingdom of ireland , and to raise war to extirpate the protestant religion in the kingdom of ireland , and to establish the romish religion there . and it sets forth further , that for the accomplishment of these treasons , the defendant with several others did meet together at several places at dublin in the kingdom of ireland , and elsewhere , and at these several meetings did consult and agree to put the king to death , to raise war , to extirpate the protestant religion , and set up the romish religion . and the indictment further sets forth , that to accomplish these treasons , the defendent did raise great sums of money in the kingdom of ireland , and did get several persons to contribute several sums for these treasons ; and that the defendent with others did disburse several sums of money to several persons , to perswade them and entice them to be aiding and assisting in these treasons , and to recompence them for them . to this indictment the defendant hath pleaded , not guilty . if we prove these things , you are to find him guilty . mr. serj. maynard . my lord , we will quickly come to the evidence . but in short , you have heard his charge is as high as can be against the king , and against the nation , and against all that is good . the design and endeavour of this gentleman was the death of the king , and the destruction of the protestant religion in ireland , and the raising of war : and to accomplish this , we charge him , that there was a confederacy made , assemblies and consultations had to these ends , and raising money to accomplish it . gentlemen , dr. plunket was made as we shall prove to you , as they there call him , primate of ireland , and he got that dignity from the pope upon this very design . he did by vertue of that power , which he thought he had gotten , make out warants , significations , i know not what they call them , to know how many men in ireland could bear arms from sixteen to fourty ; he raises taxes upon the people and the clergy there . but , my lord , the particulars will best fall from the witnesses that we shall call and prove it by , and we need not make any aggravation ; for such a thing as this cannot be more aggravated than ' t is . mr. att. general . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , the character this gentleman bears , as primate under a forreign and usurped jurisdiction , will be a great inducement to you to give credit to that evidence we shall produce before you . we shall prove , that this very preferment was confer'd upon him upon a contract , that he should raise sixty thousand men in ireland , for the pope's service , to settle popery there , and to subvert the government . the evidence that we shall give you , will prove how it leads to destroy the king , and i take it according to the resolutions that have been , to raise war in the kingdom , and to introduce a forreign power , will be certainly evidence of an attempt and machination to destroy the king. assoon as he was in possession of his primacy , he goes about his work . there are two great necessaries to be provided , men and money . for men , having this great spiritual jurisdiction , whereby , indeed , all that are under it are become slaves , he issues out his warrants to all the clergy of ireland , to give an account , and make return from the several parishes , of all the men in them above fourteen and under sixty . and returns were accordingly made by them , that he might accordingly take a measure what men to pick out for the service . the next thing was money , my lord ; and your lordship takes notice , that when the mind is enslaved , the purse , nay all the body bows to it . he issues out his warrants to his clergy , to make a collection of money , in all parts great sums were levied , and when they were levied , we shall give you an accompt by our proofs , that several sums were issued out , and sent into france to further the business . there was also provision made of great ammunition and arms , and we shall prove in particular , several delivered out by this gentleman's order , to carry on this thing ; and to go through stitch with this business , he takes a view of all the several ports and places in ireland , where it would be convenient to land : for they were to have from france an auxiliary forcce , and upon his view he pitched upon carlingford as the place . we shall prove the several correspondencies between rome and him , and france and him , and several messengers imployed , and moneys issued out from time to time for their maintenance . this will be the course of our evidence ; and we shall begin first with some that do not speak so particularly to this doctor , but prove there was a general design in all parts of the kingdom of ireland , to bring in the king of france , and extirpate the protestant rehgion : and then we shall call the particular persons to the particular facts against him . first we call florence wyer . [ who was sworn . ] mr. soll. gen. are you sworn , sir ? wyer . yes , sir. mr. soll. gen. pray give the court and the jury an account of what you know of any plot in ireland , to introduce the romish religion , or to bring in the french king. wyer . yes , i know there was a plot , both before plunket's time , and in his time ; for it was working in the years , and . but it was brought to full maturitie in the year . for then col. miles rely , and col. bourne was sent to ireland from the king of france , with a commission to muster as many men as he could , promising to send an army of men with a commission , upon st. lewis day in august next following , to land at carlingford to destroy all the true subjects , to destroy the religion as it was established there , and to set up the french king's authority and the roman-catholick religion . and one edmond angle that was a justice of peace and clerk of the crown , sent for all the rebels abroad in the north to come up into the county of longford , and they marched into the head-town of the county and fired the town ; the inhabitants fled into the castle : then they came up to the goal , thinking to break it open , and by setting the prisoners free , to joyn them with them ; but then angle was shot , received a deadly wound , and dropt off his horse , and they fled . so then when they were without the town , one charles mac canell alighted , and took away all the papers out of his pocket ; which if they had been found , would have discovered all . this occasioned col. bourne to be suspected ; and being so suspected , he was taken prisoner , and turned to newgate in dublin . then col. riley fled away again to france , and the plot lay under a cloud during th● life of primate raley the prisoner's predecessor . this primate raley died beyond sea. then many of the popish religion would h●ve had the primacie conferred upon one duffy ; but the prisone● at the b●r put in for it ; which might have been opposed , if the prisoner had not engaged and promised that he would so manage affairs , that before the present government were aware , he would surprize the kingdom , provided the pope and king of france would send a competent arm●e to joyn with theirs for the effecting of it . so the first year of his coming over , i was in the frierie●at armagh : i was an acquaintance of the friers , and they invited me . and one quine told the prisoner , that they thought duffy would have been primate . said he , 't is better as it is ; for duffy hath not the wit to do those things that i have undertaken to do ; meaning that he did undertake to supplant the protestant religion , to bring in properie , and put the kingdom under subjection to the king of france . mr. soll. gen. how do you know that ? wyer . those were the words , and in the meaning i knew before , because i had heard it talked of . l. c. j. who was the first of these primates you speak of ? wyer . edmund raley . he set this business on foot first . l. c. j. about what ? wyer . about calling the rebels together out of the north when they came to longford . l. c. j. what year was that ? wyer . it was in the year ( . ) l. c. j. when died he ? wyer . he died a little while afterwards . l. c. j. then duffy would have it conferred upon him ? wyer . yes , after raley's decease he would have had it conferred upon him ; and there was a contention between him and the prisoner , who did engage he would bring things to that full maturity , that before the present government were aware he would do the work . l. c. j. how do you know this ? wyer . i know this , because i had an account of it from certain school-fellows that were with me in ireland , then studying in rome ; they wrote this to me , desiring me i would take a good heart with the rest of my country-men , and assuredly in a short time the kingdom would be relieved , and the irish restored to their former patrimonies . l. c. j. this you speak of their information . what do you know of your own knowledge ? wyer . all that i know is , he coming into the friery of armagh — l. c. j. about what time ? wyer . it is either or years ago , and there was a fast there , and i was invited by the friers , being their acquaintance ; one quine one of the friers told him — l. c. j. told whom ? wyer . the prisoner , that he did expect duffy should have been primate ; but the prisoner made answer , 't is better as it is ; for duffy had not the wit to manage the things that i have undertaken for the general good of our religion . l. c. j. now tell me this : what things were those he had undertaken ? did he explain himself ? wyer . no further than those words : but i did conceive this was his meaning ; because i knew partly of it my self , knowing of the former plot. l. c. j. i ask you onely what words came from him ; and you say they were , that duffy had not the wit to manage what he had undertaken for the general good of their religion . wyer . yes ; and then again in his assemblie , kept by him , he charged his inferiours to collect such several sums of money as he thought fit , according to the several parishes and dignities , to assist and supplie the french forces when they came over . l. c. j. how know you that ? wyer . i have seen the money collected ; and i have seen his warrant sub poena suspensionis to bring it in , to redeem their religion from the power of the english government . again , there were those rebels that went to longford — l. c. j. what time were those collections ? wyer . from time to time since he came into ireland . l. c. j. about what time ? wyer . year , year , year ago , and the last year of all . l. c. j. then it was several times , you say ? wyer . yes ; and he procured the macdonels a piece of money out of the exchequer , pretending to do good service to his majestie ; but he sent them for france , meaning they should improve themselves , and bring themselves into favour with the king of france , and come over with the french king to surprize ireland . this one of the said rebels told me . so i have seen the prisoner's letter directed to the grand torie flemming , desiring that they should go to france , and he would see them , in spight of all their e●emies , in ireland ●afe ashoar . and flemming should return again a colonel , to his own glory , and the good of his country . mr. att. gen. do you know his hand ? wyer . yes , i do , as well as my own . i have seen capt. o neal , son of general o neal , coming every year into ireland , and carrying three regiments to the french king into france ; and he used to come over to ireland every year to get a recruit ; and he did get my brother to go with him , and so much importun'd me , that i could hardly withstand him ; but i did not yield to his desire : he told me it was to improve me for my good ; to improve my self in military discipline , and then i should return for ireland a captain under the french king , to surprize the kingdom and settle the popish religion , and then i should be restored to my estate . l. c. j. who told you this ? wyer . capt. o neal. and in the mean while , says he , i hear dr. plunket is the onely man entrusted in ireland to make these preparations , and get things ready against the french king 's coming , who is to land at carlingford . mr. att. gen. how often were you in the doctor 's company ? wyer . not very often . plunket . i never saw him with my eyes before in all my life . wyer . i have seen him in the priory the first year that he came over to ireland ; and you know the meetings held at george blykes house in the fives ; and i have seen him in his own house . mr. just . dolben . how come you to know the prisoners hand ? wyer . because i was well acquainted with his hand , seeing his hand amongst the priests . mr. just . dolben . did you ever see him write ? wyer . yes , in the priory , and in his own house . mr. just . dolben . how often ? wyer . not often . mr. just . dolben . how often ? wyer . ten or a dozen times : i should know his hand from all the writing in london , if it were among never so many . let me but see it , i will know it . l. c. j. have you ever heard him own himself primate ? wyer . yes , my lord , he writes himself oliverus armacanus primas & metropolitanus totius hiberuiae , that is his stile . l. c. j. who did he say made him primate ? wyer . the pope , my lord. l. c. j. have you heard him say so ? wyer . yes , i heard him discourse of it in the priory . mr. att. gen. he was a publick officer , and they might well know his hand . l. c. j. i believe any body that hath seen us write but a little , would soon know our hands . wyer . his hand is as well known over ireland , as mine is among my acquaintance . l. c. j. well , go on . wyer . during the time of his imprisonment , i have seen his commands to some of his inferiour dignitaries , commanding them sub poena suspensionis , to bring in the monies assessed for bringing in the french armie ; and that there was no better time than the time of his imprisonment to bring it in . l. c. j. who were they , you say , that were commanded sub poena suspensionis ? wyer . since his taking , i have seen in the time of his imprisonment his commands to his inferiour dignitaries , not to be forgetful of the monies that were assessed towards the supplying the french army ; and that rhere was no better time to bring in the french , than when he was in prison . l. c. j. how long ago was that ? wyer . the first of february ( . ) the second and last of it was in july and november last . l. c. j. and this was to bring in the money ? wyer . yes , to supplie the french armie . and that there was no better time than during his imprisonment , and they should not be so much suspected . l. c. j. and these mandates you have seen under his haud ? wyer . yes , i have , my lord. mr. att. gen. what do you know of his summoning or issuing out these warrants for lists of men ? wyer . i have not seen any of the warrants ; but the priests have told me they were commanded by his warrants to let him know how many there were in all their parishes from to . mr. att. gen. you say you never saw the mandates ? wyer . no , i did not . mr. serj. jefferies . what do you know about the prisoner's viewing the ports ? wyer . i have seen him going about from port to port , to derry , to carriefergus , castle down , and carlingford , and all about . mr. serj. j●fferies . when he went to take a view of those ports , can you tell to what purpose he did it ? wyer . yes , i heard it among the church , that he went on purpose to view the sea-ports to know the strength of all the garrisons , and to see which was the most convenient way to bring in the french army . mr. serj. gefferies . did you ever speak with the prisoner at the bar about his going ? wyer . no. mr. serj. gefferies . what place did he pitch on as most convenient ? wyer . carlingford . mr. att. gen. were you in the prisoner's companie when he viewed the ports ? wyer . i have seen him go to and fro ; i did not go all the circuit round with him . plunket . did you ever see me at carlingford ? wyer . no. plunket . did you ever see me at any other of the ports ? wyer . i have seen you at hamiltons coming back from derry . do you not remember that you lodged at at sir geo. ? plunket . i never lodged there in my life . sir. fra. withings . have you any thing more to say concerning the plot in general ? wyer . no , in general i have not . mr. serj. jefferies . he hath not onely given an account of the general , but fixed it upon the prisoner . mr. att. gen. dr. plunket , will you ask him any questions ? plunket . you say you remember you saw me at my first coming as primate ten years ago , and that you were at the priory when i was there ? wyer . yes . plunket . you were invisible to me . l. c. j. if you will ask any question , do ; but do not make these kind of observations . plunket . tell me this , why did not you acquaint some justice of the peace then with what you knew , that which you had heard years ago ? wyer . when i first knew it , i was as willing to have it conceal'd as they . l. c. j. what is your question , dr. plunket ? pray tell it us . plunket . he says , my lord , that ten years ago i had such a design in hand , and he knew the money was collected for these very ends , and he knew of the design from that same capt. o neal whom i employed and sent abroad ; and that i had a design to bring in the french at carlingford , and went about to all the ports in ireland , and pitched upon that as the most convenient ; and yet it is so inconvenient for the bringing in a forein force , that any one that knows any thing of the maps of the world , will easily conclude it otherwise . but , i say , my lord , why did not he tell some justice of the peace that i was upon such a design , but let me live in ireland ten years after , and never speak of it till now ? l. c. j. what say you to the question ? plunket . when he saw me all the time , and to the time of my taking prisoner , and never said one word ; for i was a prisoner six months onely for my religion , not one word of treason spoken of against me for so many years : why did not he acquaint some justice of the peace with it before ? l. c. j. what religion were you of then ? wyer . i was a roman ▪ ca●holick . plunket . and are you not so now ? wyer . yes , i am so . mr. just . dolben . therefore it will be no wonder that you did not discover it . mr. serj. jefferies . but i ask you , why did not you discover it all this time ? wyer . because i was a papist my self : the first that did discover it , he and i did consult about it , i had charged him so to do , and i set him on work ; but he was ill paid for having discovered it : you got him to be trepann'd , that he hath gone in danger of his life for it . plunket . who is that man ? wyre . moyer . sir fra. withins . call henry o neal , ( who was sworn . ) what know you of any design in ireland to introduce the popish religion ? o neal. in august ( ) bishop tirril came with odd horse-men to vicar-general brady's house , and alighted at the door ; and he gave them there an oath , which they took willingly and freely from hand to hand , to forward the popish plot against the protestant religion , to make an end of them all in one hour from end to end in ireland ; and said he , i will come within two days with an order from the ld. oliver plunket ; and you need not be afraid , for the ld. oliver plunket and i have sent some gold and money into france to get men and bring them from france over sea : and do not fear , this will go on in one hour through all ireland from end to end . in september ( ) a little while after , the same meeting was in a place which they call virginia , in the county of connaght , where they took a priest , he is here , and he was with me , and desired me to come up to dublin and discover this ; and there i did discover it to sir john davis ; which is all that i can say : for this plunket , i never saw him in my life . mr. jones . you were a papist then ? o neal. yes , i was . mr. jones . are you a roman-catholick still ? o neal. yes , i am . mr. jones . and were you acquainted with all these orders ? o neal. yes . l. c. j. how came you to know of this oath ? o neal. i was in the house with them ; i was one concerned to take my oath with them , and i durst not but take the oath . l. c. j. had you the oath of secrecie given you ? o neal. yes : and so this priest commanded me to go along to dublin and discover it . mr. serj. gefferies . what is his name ? o neal. john macklegh . sir fra withins . do you know any other transactions about the plot ? o neal. no , i will not swear for all the world more than i know . sir fra. withins . — then call neile o neal , ( who was sworn . ) what do you know of any design carrying on in ireland against the government and the protestant religion ? n. o neal. i will tell you all i know : i was at vicar bradey's house the of august . l. c. j. what year ? n. o neal. ( ) . and bishop tirril came with horse-men to the house , and went into the house , and discoursed a little while ; and they took their oaths every one round to keep secret the plot to destroy the protestant religion and the protestants , that they might have their estates again . and he said they did not need to fear : for , said he , you have a very good man to assist you , and that is the lord oliver plunket , and you need not fear but it will go through all ireland . mr. att. gen. will you ask him any questions ? plunket . why did he not discover it before ? mr. serj. jefferies . were you a roman-catholick at that time ? n. o neal. yes , and am so still . mr. paget jury-man . i desire he may be asked how he came to be there ? l. c. j. you say , i think , this was at vicar-general bradey's ; how came you to be there ? n. o neal. i was there several times before that ; for my nurse , or my foster-mother ( i don't know which you may understand best ) was house-keeper to him . l. c. j. were you required to take the oath ? n. o neal. no , my lord , i was acquainted in the house , i had been there two or three weeks before . plunket . why did not you tell it to some justice of the peace ? l. c. j. he was a papist , and so he is now . n. o neal. there were many there that were wiser than i , that did not discover it . l. c. j. how old are you ? n. o neal. i believe about two and twentie years old . l. c. j. and this was but in ( . ) mr. att. gen. swear owen murfey . ( which was done . ) come , what say you ? o. murfey . mr. edmond murfey discovered the plot ; he went to one lieutenant baker and did discover the plot to him , that there was a designe to bring in the french. l. c. j. speak out aloud , i can't hear you . o. murfey . all i know is from mr. edmond murfey — l. c. j. what do you know of any your own knowledge ? o. murfey . mr. lieutenant baker told me , that he did hear of the french — l. c. j. speak what you know your self . o. murfey . if it please your lordship , this is more : i saw that evidence that edmond murfey did produce in ireland , when he was sent to the goal there ; but without trial or any thing . mr. att. gen. then swear hugh duffy . ( which was done . ) speak aloud , and tell my lord what you know of this plot and the prisoner . you know the prisoner , don't you ? duffy . i know him , yes , i know him well enough . l. c. j. what say you more of him ? duffy . my lord , i say , i have seen this dr. oliver plunket raising several sums of money to carrie on this plot ; sometimes s. per an. sometimes . mr. soll. gen. of whom ? duffy . of all the priests in ireland ; of every priest according to his pension and parish . l. c. j. in all ireland ? duffy . yes . l. c. j. and towards the proceedings of the plot ? duffy . it was to give to his agent which was at rome , and for the carrying on the business . mr. att. gen. how come you to know this ? duffy . i was servant to dr. duffy , who was infinitely beloved by this man : he was father confessor to the queen of spain : there was nothing that happen'd between them , but i was by all the time . l. c. j. were you chaplain to him ? duffy . yes . l. c. j. you are a papist then ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. this man is a friar , my lord. l. c. j. were you in the companie with them ? duffy . yes , i was . l. c. j. what did pass there ? duffy . about the plot , how they could confirm the plot : and this man plunket said , he could prevail with the king of france , and the other with the king of spain . mr. att. gen. pray acquaint my lord particularly when this was , and in what place , and what they said . duffy . it was in ( ) ( ) and ( ) at his own house ; and at he kept three or four jesuits there , and a matter of a hundred priests . mr. att. gen. what passed in the companie ? l. c. j. who else was there ? duffy . the discourse , my lord , was always about the plot , how they could contrive the matter between them ; and so they did conclude afterwards to raise so much money upon several priests , all the priests in ireland , sometimes s. sometimes . l. c. j. a piece , do you mean ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. what discourse had they about the french at any time ? duffy . yes a hundred times ; he talked several times , that he did not question but he should prevail with the king of france not to invade spain : and i have seen his letter to cardinal bouillon to expostulate with him about the king of france , why he should wage war with the king of spain who was a catholick , but rather should come and redeem ireland out of its heretical jurisdiction . mr. att. gen. did you see the letter ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. why , do you know his hand ? duffy . yes , i know it as well as i know my own ; i know it if there were a thousand papers together . mr. att. gen. and what was the import of it , pray ? duffy . that cardinal bouillon should prevail with the king of france not to invade spain : and the contents of the rest of the letter were , that he did admire he should not rather wage war with the king of england ; who hath been an apostate , and help their poor country that was daily tormented with heretical jur●sdiction . mr. att. gen. how came you to be in france ? were you employed ? duffy . i went to france to live there in a covent . plunket . did cardinal bouillon shew you my letter ? duffy . yes . plunket . what year ? duffy . ( . ) mr. att. gen. pray sir , you were speaking of raising of money . duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. did you see any precept about it ? duffy . yes . i have seen several precepts ; i was curate to one father murfey ; and while that man was with dr. oliver plunket , and other jesuits , i did officiate in his place , and he sent his letters to me to raise s. and s. a time , several times . l. c. j. you your self ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. what for ? duffy . it was to send to dr. who was at rome . mr. att. gen. did you send any money that you know of ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. tell what time you gave the money your self . duffy . in ( ) ( ) and ( . ) mr. att. gen. where ? duffy . at his own dwelling-place at mr. just . jones . of what qualitie was the prisoner amongst you ? duffy . he was primate of all ireland . mr. just . jones . under whom ? duffy . under whom ? under the pope . mr. just . jones . how do you know he was so ? duffy . we had it in his writings . l. c. j. did he stile himself so in his letters ? duffy . yes , if he writ but to the least man in the country , he would write , oliver us armacanus primas totius hiberniae . l. c. j. and so you always understood him ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. were you present at any of the general consultations or meetings ? duffy . yes , i was . mr. att. gen. what number might meet at that time ? duffy . five hundred men and women . mr. att. gen. where was this ? duffy . at clouds . mr. att. gen. what was the occasion and design of that meeting ? duffy . confirmation from the bishop . mr. att. gen. and what was done there besides ? duffy . the second thing was , that the gentlemen of the three counties should conclude together about this matter . l. c. j. about what ? duffey . about joyning the french and spanish together . mr. just . dolben . where was that meeting ? duffy . in the county of monaghan . mr. just . dolben . was the prisoner there ? duffy . yes , he was the chief man. l. c. j. when was this ? duffy . in ( ) to the best of my knowledge . mr. just . dolben . were you there your self ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. what was the transaction of that day , besides the sacrament of confirmation ? duffy . it was agreed that the gentry of armagh , monaghan , and conaght should joyn together ; and then they went into a private council to get a list of all the officers that were in the last rebellion , and those that lost their estates . mr. att. gen. how do you know that ? did you go into the consult ? duffy . yes , i was in the same consult my self , and was as willing to proceed in the matter as any one in the world . l. c. j. where was this ? duffy . within two miles of clouds , at one father house . l. c. j. was that at the time when there were so many persons met ? pray speak again what was done there besides confirmation . duffy . why , they were withdrawn aside into a garden ; some stood up , and some sate down ; and oliver plunket stood in the middle of them all as a prelate , and every one kneeled before him and kissed his hand . mr. att. gen. what was then said ? duffy . then they did consult and gave special order to some of them to get a list of all the officers in the late rebellion , and that losed their estates , and that they should be more forward than others to proceed in that wicked design . l. c. j. what was that design ? duffy . to destroy all the protestants together . mr. att. gen. was it to mingle the irish , and spanish , and french armie together ? duffy . yes , it was . mr. att gen. did you hear the prisoner speak about it ? duffy . yes , and he made a speech before them concerning our own fai●h and religion . mr att ▪ gen. was there any mention of money at that time ? duffy . it was , that every man of them that could dispose of money should provide some for those gentlemen that would soon come into ireland . mr. serj. maynard . who were those gentlemen ? duffy . the french army and the spanish army together . mr. att. gen. were you at any other meeting ? duffy . no. mr. att. gen. after he was taken , do you know of any order he sent out to gather money ? duffy . yes , at the assizes of dalkieth , i think it is june two years ago , he was apprehended — mr. att. gen. indeed he was first apprehended as a very busie papist . duffy . i have seen two or three several orders to raise money , and for the same purpose ; and that it was the onely time to bring the matter to an end when he lay in goal himself . mr. att. gen. was that the effect of the letter ? duffy . yes ; and that the french and spanish kings should take the advantage that now was offered whilst he was in prison . mr. just . jones . you say some money was sent to d. cray ? duffy . yes . mr. just . jones . to what end ? duffy . to comply with this design . mr. jones . where was that dr. cray ? duffy . he was at rome , he was made a bishop there . m● . att. gen. who employed him there ? duffy . this man employed him alwaies . l. c. j. what was his name ? duffy . cray . mr. jones . you say some of the priests paid , some ? duffy . yes . mr. jones . did the lay gentrie agree to pay nothing ? duffy . i don't know for the gentrie . l. c. j. but i think you paid something your self ? duffy . yes , i paid for two or three years my self . l. c. j. and that was for the designe ? duffy . yes , for the french and spanish armie , and all the purposes together . mr. att. gen. what do you know of any precept to be given in of all sorts of persons of such an age ? duffy . i gave a list of the age of every person from to . mr. att. gen. by whose order ? duffy . by his order . mr. serj. jeff. to whom did you give it ? duffy . to dr. plunket . mr. serj. jeff. that is , to the prisoner ? duffy . yes ; out of my own precinct . mr. att. gen. had you an order from him ? duffy . yes , it was directed to the parish-priest ; and i being curate in his place , received the order . sir fr. with. to what purpose was it ? duffy . to know what men in ireland were able to bear arms. mr. just . jones . what was the number contained in your list ? duffy . mr. just . jones . what in one parish ? duffy . yes . mr. serj. jeff. what was the parishes name ? duffy . coghan . mr. att. gen. do you know any thing of his going to view the ports ? duffy . i accompanied him to carlingford . mr. att. gen. did you ? duffy . yes , in person i did . mr. serj. jeff. what did he say ? duffy . he went round about the place where some of the custom-ships come in ; there was a great castle there near the sea , and he went to view the place , and could not get a boat : and there was a great talk of carlingford to be one of the best havens in ireland ; there was no great garison at the place , and any ship might come to the gates of the town and surprize it , being a little town . mr. a●t . gen. what did he conclude upon that ? duffy . that he might get the french armie to land safely there . mr. att. gen. what do you know of delivering any ammunition and arms ? duffy . he did send some of this money to get ammunition into ireland . plunket . you say you were murfey's curate ; can you shew any such institution as you say came to you to raise money ? duff . i could have brought them , but i thought it needless . plunket . can you name any other person i received money from ? duffy . i have seen your paper of the countie of monaghan . plunket . have you seen any of them pay any moneys ? duffy . yes , i have seen twentie of them pay money . mr. just . dolben . why you are acquainted with this man , are you not , mr. plunket ? plunket . my lord , i believe i have seen him . mr. just . dolbin . don't you know he was chaplain to bishop duffy ? plunket . no ; i never was in his companie . mr. serj. jefferies . pray tell him what time of the year it was that you were at carlingford . duffy . it was at the end of the year ( ) and the beginning of the year ( . ) mr. att. gen. pray , if you can recollect , was you once , or twice , or twentie times in his companie ? duffy . as i am a christian , i have been a hundred times in his companie . and when you were creating priests , you would always send for me to be present ; and i wonder how the man should forget himself . plunket . i do not say i have not seen him , or that i am a stranger to the man ; but in the companie of bishop duffy i never saw him , nor i never sent him orders to pay any money : and if he did pay any money , he might shew the order . mr. serj. jeff. if he did pay any money , you did ill to take it . mr. att. gen. pray let him have fair play to ask any questions . mr. soll. gen. tell how you came to remember that you saw him at sir nich. plunkets . duffy . dr. duffy did send me to sir nicholas plunkets , and i met dr. plunket as i was coming out of the citie . i had been half a year at the spanish embassadours , and he sent me for ireland again , and then i lived at the convent in dublin ; and then when i knew that he would come to town , i went to rings-end , where the ships came in , to meet him . plunket . you say you were with him at my house ? duffy . yes . plunket . if you were , you were invisible : but i ask you , why did not you tell this to some justice of the peace ? mr. just . dolben . good mr. plunket , he tells you he was as willing to forward it then as you . l. c. j. how come you now to change your mind ? duffy . i went into france in ( ) and i was not there a year altogether ; but when i have seen how the poor people there are brought into such slaverie by the french king , i thought of it , and had rather the devil should reign over us , than the french-man . mr. just . dolben . he gives you a very good rational account why . duffy . i have been at sir nicholas plunkets , and dr. patrick plunkets , where there fell some variance about something this man had done to father duffy . saies bishop duffy , i might have had you drawn and quartered , if i were as ill a man as you ; and i might have been primate of ireland , if i would have undertaken those things that you undertook . upon that , saies sir nicholas plunket , what is that ? why it was said it was to raise men in ireland at any time whenever the french or the spanish king should wage war with england , scotland , or ireland . and this man did confess before my face to father duffy , that it was not onely to exalt himself , but all the roman clergie , and all the gentrie that had lost their estates . plunket . mr. duffy , one word with you ; is not this out of malice to me for correcting some of the clergie ? duffy . you had nothing to do with me , for i was a friar . mr. att. gen. swear edmond murfey . ( which was done . ) tell your whole knowledge of dr. plunket and the irish plot. murfey . may it please you my lord , i was one of the first discoverers of this plot ; but of nine witnesses , i have but one in town . l. c. j. well , tell your own knowledge . murfey . now i beg your lordship as to dr. plunket , th●t you will respit it till next term , i could bring ten witnesses . mr. att. gen. do you speak your own evidence . murfey . i refer it to the king and council what evidence i have given . l. c. j. do not trouble your self , be directed a little ; you are here now to speak what you know concerning any treasons , or any other matters against the king , done by dr. plunket ; speak your own knowledge ; for as to other witnesses we do not call you . murfey . if i be called in question for this evidence — mr. att. gen. come , sir , you have been at the spanish embassadors lately , answer my question : have you ever been with plunket in ireland ? murfey . yes , sir. mr. att. gen. have you ever heard him own himself primate of ireland ? murfey . yes , titular primate . mr. att. gen. under whom did he claim that authoritie ? under the king , or under the pope ? murfey . i think he could not be under the king at all . mr. att. gen. under whom then ? murfey . it must be either the king or the pope . l. c. j. answer me directly , did he claim to be titular primate under the pope ? murfey . i suppose he did . ● . c j. was he reputed generally so to be ? murfey . yes , my lord. mr at. gen. mr. murfey , remember what you swore before the grand jurie ; pray recollect your self whether that be true , and tell all . l c. j. you are upon your oath , you must speak the truth and the whole truth , you must not mince or conceal any thing . mr. serj. jeff. were you sworn before the grand jurie ? murfey i was sworn before the king and parliament . mr. serj. jeff. did you give in any evidence to the grand jurie ? murfey . yes , i did . mr. serj. jeff was that you swore before the grand j●rie true , upon your oath ? murfey . i can't say but it was . mr. serj. jeff. repeat it , tell my lord and the jurie what it was , and tell the truth . murfey . i have forgot it . mr. att. gen. why then i would ask you a little ; you remember i was by , and 't is no laughing matter , mr. murfey , you will find it so . what do you know of any orders issued out by mr. plunket , to raise money from the priests ? murfey . i know there was orders , and i took the orders my self in my hand . mr. att. gen. from whom had you those orders ? murfey . from another , and not from him . mr. att. gen. under whose hand were those orders ? murfey . they were from the primate . mr. att. gen. did you see any order under plunket's hand for raising of money ? murfey . no , but under the vicar-generals , by his authoritie , as i suppose . m● . att gen. upon your oath , did you not swear before the grand juri● , ●hat you saw the orders under his hand ? murfey . no , i did not : or i was mistaken , for it was onely by his direction . mr. att. gen. pray had ●ou any converse with oliver plunket about the raising of money ? murfey . oliver plunket about the raising of money ? mr. att. gen. yes , that is a plain question . mu●fey . it was about other matters i conversed with him . mr att. gen. but did you converse with him about money ? murfey . no , not about the money . mr. att. gen. upon your oath , did you converse with him about bringing in the french ? mr. serj. jeff. declare the truth , come . l. c. j. come , don't trifle ; what discourse have you had with the prisoner about raising of money , or bringing in the french ? either of them , sir. murfey . i know this , if the d. of york and d. of ormond had proceeded according to their intentions , it was a general expectation at the same time , that all the french and irish would come and fall upon the english nation , as i understood . l. c. j. pray answer the question directly , you must not come and think to trifle with the court , you must speak the truth , you are sworn to it ; you must not come to quibble and run about to this and that and t'other , but answer directly , have you had any discourse with the prisoner about orders for raising of money in ireland ? murfey . yes , i have seen orders from his vicar-general for the raising of money . l. chief just . hath he owned them to be by his direction ▪ murfey . not before me , but others he has . mr. att. gen. have you seen any money paid to him ? murfey . to whom ? mr. att. gen. to plunkett . murfey . to the vicar general i have . l. c. just . but to plunkett . murfey . none to plunkett . l. c. just . have you had any discourse with him at any time about the raising of money , which the vicar-general gave order for ? murf●● . i have had discourse with the vicar-general . l. ch. just . sir , don't trifle , have you had any with him ? murfey . with him ? l. ch. just . yes , with him . murfey . yes , i have had some discourse with him . lord ch. justice , tell me what that discourse was ? murfey . i think it was about this . if the d of york , and the d. of monmouth fell out together , that he had some men to raise about that matter , and if the d. of monmonth would raise the p●●te●●ant religion — mr. att. gen. you see he hath been in spanish hands . l. ch. just . were you a protestant sir. murfey . no , i am a priest . mr. serg. jeff. he is to seek yet . murfey . i am indifferent whether i be a protestant or a papist . mr. att. gen. my lord he is a priest in orders , and so hath acknowledged himself . murfey . yes , i am a priest , but it makes me forget my self to see so many evidences to come in , that never knew plunket . l. ch. just . sir , you refuse to answer those q●estions that we put to you here . murfey . what i said before the parliament i answer punctually . l. ch. just . you are asked questions here , and produced as a witness , will you answer directly or not ? murfey . yes , i will. l. ch. just . then let me hear what discourse you had with the primate plunkett concerning any money raised by him or his vicar general . murfey . may it please your lordship , first of all i did not impeach primate plunket , but the officers and justices of the peace . mr. jones . had you any discourse with him , yea , or no ? murfey . that he should find so many catholicks in ireland if the d. of york and the d. of monmouth fell out . mr. just . jones , why it plainly appears what you drove at at first , to put off this tryal if you could . l. ch. just . the papists in england have been at work with you . mr. serg. jeff. i perceived this gentleman was very busie looking upon his hat , i desire he may be searched if he have no paper about him . mr. att. gen. mr. solicitor and my self heard the evidence he gave to the gran●-jury . then h● went out of the court and would scarce be perswaded to come back again . mr. att. gen. we both heard him , and he gave the fullest evidence , muc● fuller ●o all instances , and particulars of this high treason , much fuller than duffy to the grand-jury . afterwards about weeks ago the tryall coming on , he ran away and lay hid , i took a great deal of pains to find him out , and sent messengers about , at last i heard he was got to the spanish embassadors , i sent , and they spyed him in the chappel ; but the spanish embassadors servants fell upon the messenger and beat ●im , the embassador was first sent to about it , and his excellency promi●ed that he should be brought , and when he was found he told me but the last night , that all he had sworn before the grand-jury was true , and he was ready to make it out again . l. ch. just . and now he says , he knows not what he said then , and pray take notice of that . murfey . i told the grand-jury this , that my lord plunket had a design to get or men in ireland , if the d. of york and the d. of monmouth should fall out . mr. att. gen. did you tell a word of that to the grand-jury . murfey . yes sir , or i was mistaken . mr. att. gen. not one word of that did he then say . l ch. just . do you own this man , dr. plunket , to be of your religion ? mr. serj. jeff. do you know this seeker ? plunket . he says himself he is indifferent to be a protestant or a papist . mr. serj. jeff. i will only try you by one question more , for you are sought out , and it may be you may be found ; do you know how many men he was to raise in ireland ? remember what you said to the grand jury . murfey . men. l. ch. just . what were they to do ? murfey . for establishing if occasion should be — mr. serj. jefferies . establishing , establishing what ? murfey . of the romish religion . mr. serj. jefferies . well , so far we have got men to establish the romish religion , what , was plunkett to do this ? murfey . as far as i understood . mr. just . jones . and you understood it by himself ? murfey . i received letters from the vicar general to get so much money collected , and assoon as i got the letters to my hands , i sent them to a privy councellor . l. ch. just . do you not know that he was ingaged to assist the french army ? murfey . i do not know that by him , but by others . mr. just . dolb. did you ever discourse with him about it ? murfey . i did discourse with him about several matters . mr. just . dolb. about the french army ? murfey . yes . l. ch. just . do you know that he did endeavour to bring them into ireland . murfey . i had a correspondence in france at the same time — l. ch. just . with whom . murfey . with one mac carty . l. ch. just . and do you know that he had correspondence in france . murfey . yes , i know that . mr. just . dolb. with whom had plunket correspondence in france . mu●fey . he had correspondence with dr. cray , and others in france as i understood by others . mr. just . dolb. was the end of that correspondence to bring men from france into ireland . murfey . yes , so far as i understand . 〈◊〉 just . dolb. you understood the letters when you read them , did you not . murfey . i know not how these people come to swear this business , whether they had not malice against him — mr. att. gen. well , sir , pray give you your evidence , we will take care of the rest . mr. just . dolb. i reckon this man hath given the best ev●dence that can be . l. ch. just . yes , it is evidence that the cathol●cks have been tampering with him . mr. ser. jeff. i desire he may be committed my lord ▪ because he hath fenced from the beginning [ which was done accordingly ] mr. att. gen. swear john mac legh . [ which was done . ] sir fran. wyth . tell my lord and the jury what you know of any plot in ireland to bring in the french. mac legh . i was a parish priest in ireland in the county of monagh●n , and dr. oliver plunket received several sums of money in ireland , and especially in the diocess where i am . i raised some of it and paid him s. at one time , and s. another time , in the year ( ) i paid him s. in the year ( ) i paid him s. and it was about july , and it was for the better advancement of the french coming in . mr. jones . did he tell you , that the money was to be employed that way . mac legh . yes , that the money was to be kept for arms and ammunition for the roman catholicks in ireland . l. ch. just . before you paid it , did you receive any order from him ? mac legh . yes , i received an order sub paena su●p●nsion●● , and there was a publick order throughout ireland , or we would not pay it ; nay several would not pay it , and they were to be suspended . plunket . can you shew any of the orders under my hand ? mac legh . yes i can shew them , but only they are a ●ar off , i did not expect to have them asked for . plunket . have you no superiors of your own ? mac legh . yes , but you being lord primate , you could suspend bishops and inferior clergy together . plunket . when was this ? mac legh . in the years ( ) and ( . ) plunket . what is the reason you kept it secret all this while ? mac legh . in the year ( ) i did discover it to one mr. o neale , who i sent to dublin to discover this plot. i was in france my self my lord. plunket . how many years is it since you returned from france ? mac legh . in may in the year ( . ) plunket . why did you not speak all this while till now ? mac legh . i did send one mr. henry o neale to dublin , for i durst not go , lest i should have been suspended and excommunicated . mr. att. gen. this is the priest that henry . o neale speaks of . l. c. just . is not this a very good reason ; if he had come to dublin to discover , you would have suspended him . plunket . but my lord , then he might have shewn my suspension and brought me into a praemunire . mr. serj. jefferies . if you please dr. let us who are for the king have done with him first . i would ask you another question sir , were you at one vicar bradeys house ? mac legh . yes , i was . mr. att. gen. tell what was done there ? mac legh . there was bishop tyrrell came there with horse-men well mounted and armed , he came into the house about in the morning ▪ and staid till about at night , i was very much among them , and was as willing to be of the plot , as themselves . mr. att. gen. tell what was done there . mac legh . there bishop tyrrell said , that he had order from dr. oliver plunkett and others to partake of the plot to bring in the french and subvert the government in ireland , and destroy the protestant religion and the protestants . mr. att. gen. was there an oath given ? mac legh . yes , they were all put to their oaths , which they did take willingly to keep it private during their lives time , and the reason was they were to have their estates during their lives time . mr. serj. jefferies . now tell us when this was ? mr. att. gen. my lord , henry o neale and phelim o neale speake to the same purpose . mr. serj. jefferies . do you remember whether henry o neale was there ? did he take the oath of secresy ? mac legh . yes . mr. att. gen. what do you know of any letters from plunkett ? mac legh . in france i landed at brest , and going through brittany , i met with bishop tyrell and dr. cray , who was my lord oliver plunketts agent , and duke john of great brittany came into them ; for he heard of these bishops being newly come out of rome , sent for them , and i being a priest of tyrrels diocess , i went along with them , and they were well accepted , and he shewed dr. oliver plunketts conditions with the king of france , which was this ; to get dublin and london derry and all the sea-ports into their own hands , to levy war and destroy the protestant religion , and that they should have him to protect them during his life-time . l. c. just . did you see those conditions ? mac legh . a copy of them i did , the governour of brittany did shew them to the bishop . mr. serjeant jefferies . what language were those conditions in ? mac legh . they were in latine , sir. mr. serj. jefferies . was edmond murfy put out of the diocess . mac legh . not as i know of . l. c. just . what do you know of his being primate ? upon what conditions was he made primate ? mac legh . he was made primate by the election of the king of france . and upon his election , he made those conditions with the king of france , to raise men to join with the french , to destroy the protestant religion . mr. just . jones . you know that man , dr. plunkett ? plunkett . yes , my lord. mr. att. gen. will you ask him any questions . plunket . none , but what i asked the others . mr. just. dolben . then if that is all , he hath given you a good answer to that already , he was as forward then as the rest . mr. att. gen. then swear john moyer , ( which was done . ) mr. j. jones . what do you know concerning any plot in ireland , and dr. plunkets being in it . moyer . i know him first , my lord , to be made primate of ireland , ingaging that he should propagate the roman faith in ireland and to restore it to the catholick government , and i know the time by relation , that i came to rome within two months after his being made primate of ireland upon the same conditions , that have been related to you , and i was brought into the convent of st. francis in rome by one father and this father was very intimate with cardinal spinola , and when he used to go abroad he used to carry me along with him as a companion , and there i found several of the roman cardinals say , that the kingdom of ireland should come under the catholick government by the way and means of the lord primate plunket . mr. att. gen. what do you know of your self ? moyer . as i was coming then from rome , i happened to come into a convent of the order of st. francis , and there came out of ireland a young gentleman of the family of the o neales , who hath been my lord primates page . plunket . i never had a page . moyer . you termed him so my lord in ireland , and as i came , this young man had a pacquet of letters with him , as tho they were commendations to enter him into the colledge de propaganda side , directed to the secretary of that colledge . and thinking them to be letters of recommendation , an old father called one thomas crawley , and i thought it not prejudicial to open the seal ; and the contents were these , i translated them years ago , and here are the contents following , if you please they may be read , i will do my best to read them in english , the original were in latine , and some phrases in italian . and when i was surprized by mr. murfey the last year and taken suddenly , all my papers were taken away before i could return back again , by the soldiers and the tories , i only kept a copy of this letter i had in english as near as i could , and if i did not diminish any thing by the translation ; upon the oath i have taken , i have not put any thing in it , but what the contents of the letter were . l. c. just. was that letter under his own hand ? moyer . my lord cannot deny that . plunket . do you know my own hand writing ? moyer . does your lordship deny , that i know your hand ? plunket . pray sir will you answer it ? moyer . yes i do very well . plunket . when did you leave ireland ? moyer . i will tell you that , my lord 't is some or years ago . mr. serj. jefferies . you were giving an accompt of the letter , read it . moyer . here is the contents , illustrissime domine , it was directed to seignior who is now secretary of the colledge de propaganda side ( so then he read his paper . ) mr. sol. gen. you say , you translated that out of a letter under the prisoners own hand . moyer . yes , i translated it immediately , and to prove it , i have statutes which his lordship made in the general national council , which are under your own hand my lord. mr. sol. gen. when did you make this translation ? moyer . five years ago . mr. sol. gen. where did you make it ? moyer . i made it out of the original in ireland . mr. sol. gen. where is the original ? moyer . when i was taken by mr. murfey and mr. hethrington the last year , the soldiers and tories came and took them away with other papers i had of the same business . l. c. just. was the paper you translated that from , of his hand writing ? moyer . no my lord , the paper i took this out of , was a copy of the original . l. c. just. was the original of his hand writing ? moyer . yes , it was . l. c. just. where did you take it ? moyer . in caprennica , when i met with my lords page . l. c. just. what made you take a copy of it ? moyer . it was in latine and italian , and i translated it afterwards . l. c. just. and the english father , you say , made bold to open it . moyer . yes , because he thought 't was a letter of recommendations , but the original of the statutes made at clouds , i did take the original and gave a copy to the page . l. c. just. have you the original here ? moyer . yes my lord , under his own hand . plunket . that 's another thing . l. c. just. but we would know that other thing . mr. serj. jefferies . my lord , i desire that he would produce it , 't is his own hand writing , see whether his grace can deny it . moyer . the signing of it is his own hand writing , i got the writing along with the letter , and thinking to have a copy of the one as well as of the other ; it was the statutes i got , and i never knew i had them till i was in madrid in spain . then the paper was shewn to the prisoner . plunket . my lord , 't is my hand . moyer . indeed my lord , it is your own hand . mr. serj. jefferies . he owns it . moyer . and there is an order in those statutes , wherein ireland was bound to send so much money to rome upon such a design . then the witness read the title in latine . mr. just. dolben . look out that clause for the raising of the money . moyer . my lord , 't is that i look for . cum toti clero in hibernia necessarium sit . mr. just. dolben . that is but negotia generally . mr. serj. maynard . that was to solicite their affairs . mr. att. gen. 't is l. in the whole . plunket . is it l ? moyer . 't is in figures a and two ( ) plunket . my lord this is counterfeit , 't is put in by other ink. mr. just. dolben . like enough so . l. c. just. nothing more ordinary , you leave a blank for the sum , and then , may be , you put it in with other ink. mr. just. dolben . how much do you say was the money , dr. plunket . plunket . my lord , every agent that is kept at rome hath a maintenance , as all countries have their agents at rome . mr. just. dolben . how much was it ? plunket . it was l. a year . l. c. just. look you mr. plunket , consider with your self or in this case is not farthings difference , but the money was to be raised by your order . plunket . ay , but whether it was not raised to this effect , there is never a nation where the roman catholick religion is professed , but hath an agent for their spiritual affairs at rome , and this was for the spiritual affairs of the clergy of ireland . mr. serj. jefferies . and the letter was for spiritual affairs too , was it not ? plunket . i desire nothing , that is a truth , every nation hath an agent , and that agent must be maintained ; and the reason is this , because we have many colledges beyond sea , and so there is no country of roman catholicks , but hath an agent in ●ome . l. c. just. you had better r●serve your self till by and by , to answer that and the letter together ; for this is but a small part of the evidence . mr. att. gen. about this letter you were speaking of , pray , will you tell what f●ll out about it . moyer . i will tell you how it fell out afterwards . then i came along into marseilles in france , and there were captains that had as much notice as i had in that letter , for they were discoursing that they would advance themselves in the french kings service , and hoped , that by the king of france's help to have the roman catholick faith set up in their own country ; why , that discourse passed off for i was mightily affraid of any such thing , because i was of another opinion ; for perhaps i might think the roman catholick faith would flourish as well as ever it did , and hoped so as well as any body else , but not by the sword. as i came to madrid , there came one hugh o donnell son to o donnell with letters of recommendation , and those letters were to intitle the young man earl of tyrone , and likewise that his majesty , the king of spain , should help him for ireland , according to the form of the letters he had . and then as i came for ireland , speedily after there came letters of recommendation to me , that i should present my self to my lord primate , to hear confessions and be heard preach . i came to his lordship at his own house the th of december ( ) and there he kept me several hours , and approved me ; and the copy of the approbation i have to shew . andafter a long dispute we went aside , and went to to look father patrick , and there he shewed me such and such things . and after a long discourse i told my lord primate , i see your lordships letter , which you sent by young o neale , in such a place , and he shew'd me the contents of it and said , ay , my lord , 't is a good intention and design , if it can be done without bloodshed , then my lord mused a little , and said he , well father francis ( which is my name in religion , my christian name was john ) pray will you keep it secret , well my lord said i , you need not fear ; for said he , what ever i have done herein was not for my own good , but for the publick good of the catholicks . well said i , 't is well . then does he commend me into the parish of where this mr. murfey here was to put in a bull , that i had from my lord primate , which bull was brought here last year ; and there he profered me high promotions , if i would further such things , and solicite such gentlemen as i knew would be private in such a business , such as were old commanders among my friends and relations . shortly after this i saw plunket and bishop tyrrel and captain con o neale , practising to bring soldiers ready for ireland , assoon as they could get opportunity . this captain con o neale coming to the place where we kept our priory , and he and his brothers were sons to general o neale . and there captain con comes in the night time and lodges with us , and discoursed with his brother and i , because i was his companion beyond sea , about these matters , that he expected my lord primate and bishop tyrrels coming thither that night , to make some proposals about the church and other affairs . after a clock or thereabouts , my lord primate and bishop tyrrel came with others in their company , and there they and father o neale did consult amongst themselves , that they should send captain con to france and to barcellona with such and such instruments ; and sending those instruments away , captain con departs the countrey and goes for france soon after ; and speedily my lord primate undertook , that he and bishop tyrrel should view munster and vlster , and other parts of ireland , to see how affairs stood . soon after my lord primate calls a general provincial council , and sends out his orders to levy such and such taxes and subsidies , and warrants to all the parish priests , that they should give them new lists to know whether the numbers they had sent to rome before , would comply with that list . and then o neale went to view the forts of charlemont and dun-gannon , whilest those lords did collect the money ; the orders i have seen with my own proper eyes , and his own man confessed before the council in ireland that my lord gave them under his hand . mr. serj. jefferies . what year was this ? moyer . it was in ( ) to the best of my remembrance . l. c. just . look you sir , was this at a provincial meeting . moyer . yes , my lord , a general national councel , to send over instruments , to tell them , that they were ready to assist any forreign army , that should help on the design . l. c. just . and to raise money ? moyer . yes , my lord. mr. just . dolben . have you paid him any money ? moyer . i was exempted my self ; but i have seen others . mr. just . dolben . how many ? moyer . i believe . mr. just. dolben . it was not then a secret thing then , but openly done by them . moyer . yes , i saw them when they came with orders , there were priests , and they had a great cloak-bag going with orders up and down . mr. serj. jefferies . why were you exempted ? moyer . because i am a regular priest . sir fra. wythins . you say you saw the orders for raising of money , how do you know for what it was to be employed ? moyer . it was there specified down . plunket . can you shew any of the orders ? moyer . i could not take them , they did not concern me . sir fra. wythins . how was it specified ? moyer . to levy so much money per priest . i cannot remember the particular summ ; but that every priest should give so much towards an agent in rome to solicite their business , and forward it . l. c. just. what year was it ? moyer . ( . ) l. c. just. was any of the money specified for raising an army , or bringing in the french ? moyer . it was both for the agent and to summon a national council , to get things ready prepared to entertain and accept the french army when it should come . i am not so good in expressing my self in english . l. c. just. your sense is good , 't is no matter for your expression . mr. jones . what more do you know ? moyer . i know that he had the same council , and that they did agree upon the business , and this i know by one patrick borne , and i being willing that this w●cked action should be hindred , sent to the next justice to discharge my self of it , which justice was as favourable to the business as my lord himself was . l. c. just . will you ask him any questions , mr. plunket ? plunket . i desire to know when he left ireland . moyer . i cannot tell how to number the years , but i think it was in or , to the best of my remembrance it was or years ago . plunket . when did you return ? moyer . i came back in , you know it my lord. plunket . very well , when did you see the letter with the young man in caprennica . moyer . in ( . ) plunket . how then did you know my hand , which you had never seen ? moyer . i have seen it several times to several instruments , to seignior and i have seen several other letters of your hand . plunket . how did you know my hand ? moyer . i cannot positively say , i then knew your hand , but according to relation , i heard it from those cardinals i conversed with at rome . l. c. just . but now you are acquainted with his hand , is it the same hand which you have seen up and down in writings with his name to ? moyer . yes my lord , it is the very same hand . mr. serj. jefferies . i ask you sir , when you came back again and told him you had seen such a letter under his hand with o neale , did he own it to you ? moyer . yes , he did own it , and that he did not do it for his own benefit , but for the publick . mr. serj. jefferies . did he desire you to be secret ? moyer . yes , he did , and to be discreet , and he would see me highly promoted . and my lord , you sent proposals to me , to give me l. that i should not prosecute you , according as they told me , and they gave me one guinny in hand for it . l. c. just. some of it came to the hands of murfey i believe . plunket . my lord , i cannot say any thing to this , my hands are tyed , because my witnesses are not here . my lord , if i had my witnesses and records , i did not care for all these witnesses . l. c. just. but you know , you had time to bring them . plunket . my lord , i d●sire to know whether this be his hand , ( shewing the paper to mr. moyer . ) moyer . yes , i believe it is . plunket . i desire it may be read . moyer . yes , i am very well satisfied it should . cl. of cr. reads . for my very reverend father an●bony guardian of armagh , your letter and citation — 't is dated in july ( . ) plunket . he can best read it himself . cl. of cr. read it right ( the paper being delivered him . ) moyer . my lord , i pity him with all my heart , that a man of my own function , should be brought into question for such things as these are , ( he reads ) very reverend father guardian , 't is dated july ( . ) your paternities paternal letter and citation homeward , i did instantly peruse . as for my lord oliver plunk●t , i wrote a letter to him the day before i saw your reverends last , that he might cause my fame , which is as dear to me as my life , to be recalled , or i should cause his name to be fixed at every publick place , which by the almighty i will do , nature and all reason compelling me to do it . plunket . my lord , i say this , he says he came to my house when he came over , and i imparted this secret to him , yet you s●e i had denounced him throughout my whole diocess , and he here calls me by all those names of elemas , simon magus , and barjesus , and 't is impossible if i had communicated such a secret to him , that i would deal so with him . mr. just. dolben . he does not say , you imparted this s●cret to him , but he says , when he told you of the letter , you answered him , but you seemed surprized and mused first . l. c. just. you seemed to flatter him then , and told him you hoped to see him , the best of his order , highly promoted . mr. just. dolben . how came you to fall out , moyer ? moyer . when first they had this meeting at brantry , s●●ing a cloud a coming , and dreading a war , and the cons●quences of it , i went and applied my self to sir hamilton one of his majesties privy councellors in ireland , and i gave in all my informations the th december ( . ) mr. just . dolben . and thereupon he denounced you excommunicate ? moyer . yes , and afterwards , when he saw i was in communication and familiar with these privy counc●llors , then he was certain i had discovered the matter , and then he got a great many devices to get the letters out of my hand . plunket . you shall see under his own hand all the stratag●m of this , if i had my witnesses here , you should then see under his own hand , upon what account he f●ll out with me . pray my lord ask him if this other letter be his hand . moyer . i believe it is my own hand . l. c. just. read it . moyer . ( reads , ) very reverend father guardian ( then speaking ) my lord , you know that i was loth to discover my self , being among people knowing of the plot. l. c. just. well , read it over . moyer . ( reads ) the th of april ( ) i was somewhat comforted by your letter . but now i hope your reverence hath considered what wrong i have sustained , by my envious adversaries calumnies , only for standing , as i have a soul to save , for your rights and priviledges , as also for endeavouring to hinder my native countries ruine and destruction . mr. just. dolben . read that again . ( which he did . ) plunket . observe , that i was his adversary , for standing for the rights and priviledges of the fryers . mr. just. dolben . as also for endeavouring to hinder his countries ruine and destruction . l. c. just. the one and the other were the reason of your falling out . moyer . ( reads on . ) moyer . my lord , i was i confess a begging fryar , and stood up for the priviledges of the fryars . plunket . did you write any process to rome against me ? moyer . no , i never did it . plunket . my lord , does not he say i was in disgrace at rome ? moyer . no , nothing of that . l. c. just. i don't hear it , but what if he did ? what is that to the purpose ? plunket . to shew his contradictions , now he says , i was great in rome , and but then in his letter he says , i was in disgrace at rome . now he says , all that he had against me , was for his fryers , and to hinder the destruction of his countrey , because i hindred the fryers to beg there , is the destruction of his countrey , as he was doing there . upon that he fell out with me , and upon that his own superiors sent this order . l. c. just. we can't meddle with your superiors orders , they are nothing before us . mr. serj. j●fferies . my lord , i think for the present , we have done our evidence . plunket . my lord , to shew what was part of the falling out , i would ask him if he was indicted for any crime , and found guilty by a jury ? moyer . that was for discovering , for i discovered it before . plunket . my lord , he confesses he was convicted for giving powder and shot to the r●●●ls . mr. just. dolben . no , no he does not say so , produce the record , if you have any of such thi●g . moyer . to satisfie the court. mr. serj. jeff●ries . look you dr. plunket , if you will ask him any questions , that by law he is bound to answer , do it of gods name , we will not interpose , but if you ask him any questions that may tend to accuse himself , we must tell you , he is not bound to answer them . plunket . he hath been convicted and found guilty , he will conf●ss it himself . l. c. just. he is not bound to answer such a question . moyer . it was a tory swore against me , that you did absolve . mr. just. dolben . don't tell us a story of your tories . l. c. just. look you mr. plunket , don't mispend your own time ; for the more you trifle in these things , the less time you will have for your defence , i desire you now to consider , and well husband your time for your defence ; what have you to say for your self ? plunket . my lord , i tell you , i have no way to defend my self , in that i was denied time to bring over my records and my witnesses which are or . and if i had them here , i would stand in desiance of all the world to accuse me ; but i have not sufficient time to bring over my records and my witnesses , and i am brought here from out of my native countrey ; were i in ireland , there both i and they should be known : but when i was to be tryed there , they would not appear ; and it is all false and only malice . these men used to call me oliverus cromwellus out of spight . mr. serj. maynard . you are very like him , a destroyer of the government . mr. serj. jefferies . were not you acquainted with him ? plunket . this is all i can say , if i had my witnesses here i could make my defence . l. c. just. here are some things , that if you can give an answer to , you will do well to do it ; for they stick close to you . they do testifie against you here , that you did undertake to raise a body of men in ireland , men they speak of out of your own natiou , and all these were to joyn with the french , for the introducing the religion of the romish church into ireland , and setling that again there . and that you in order to this , did take a survey of all those roman catholicks that were able to bear arms , from to ; and there is plentiful evidence , that you did go a circuit there to peruse all the towns , and see which might be most convenient for the taking in , and entertaining the french , and landing their forces ; and charlemont , you did design that for one strong place to be taken , and dun gannon for another , and that you did design the french army to land at carlingford , and all that was with you , tells the reason you gave , why that should be the place , that they might come up with a burdened ship to the very gates of the town , that you did in order to the entertaining these forraign forces , raise money , that you did send out your orders sub poena suspens●on●s to all that were of the roman clergy , and that this money was receiv●d , s●veral of them testified that they paid it to you , and this man hath seen great n●mbers of persons pay money to you upon these accounts . all these are treason , what say you to them . it does import you to consider what answer you can give . plunket . my lord , first as to the first point , i answer , that i never receiv'd a farthing of money out of my own district , and but for my own livel●hood , and that i can prove by those that have received it for me , that i never received over threescore pound a year in my life , unless some gentleman would now and then give me s. for my relief . for my lord , this is the way in ireland , every priest hath so many families allotted to him , and every roman catholick family gives s. a year ( as they that profess that way , know ) and the priests give me who am superior over them , in my own district , some s . some s. and i never got so much in my life as to maintain a servant , and this was attested before the council in ireland . mr. just . dolb. ay , but the witnesses say , out of your own district you sent into another bishops diocess to collect money . plunket . my lord , i say i could never get so much as to keep a servant , and till now i never got a farthing out of my own diocess , unless i have been called to an arbitration or some such thing , it may be for my journey and expences or miles they would give me something for my maintenance , if you should find any thing else , i will be cont●nt to suffer , and if my evidence were brought from ireland , there is nothing but what would be made clear , both under their own hands and by records , and that is all well known , and was attested in his presence before the council in ireland , which threescore pounds was a very small thing to maintain me , & i never had above one servant , and the house i lived in was a little thatched house , wherein was only a little room for a library , which was not foot high , where once this fellow came to affront me , because i had hindred him from begging ▪ and that 's for th● money . for the men , i defie any one that ever see me make a list of men in my life , or can produce any list made by my order . i was never in my l●●e at kingsale , at corke , at dun-gannon , at lymrick , &c. or those parts of munster which were the chief ports where the french should come in , and not in carlingford which is the narrow seas in vlster , which any one that knows the world will judg to be a very improper place for the french to land in . 't is all one as to say that the french should come in at a poor place where they could get nothing ▪ it being at the narrow-seas , and they never saw me there in their lives . l. ch. just . yes , one does say , he was with you . plunket . well , one does say he saw me there , but if i had my witnesses here , i could prove he was a fryer , and declared an apostate by his own pr●vincial , as this gentleman is , and because i hindred them to beg in my districts , therefore they have this malice against me , that is all . well my lord , that is for that , i was never in my life in connaght , and they cannot say , i took any list in vlster , nor was miles in munster in my life , but thus my lord , sometimes there would be , as our way is , so many families assigned to every priest , ( and this is the plain truth , ) this priest perhaps complains to me of the inequality , my companion near me hath and i have but threescore , which i must rectifie ; though i never knew ●ut one of these complaints . and if i had my witnesses from ireland and the records , i would defie all these witnesses together . for my sending to rome , i had never an agent in rome for these seven years past , because i was not able to maintain him , and indeed it was a great shame to us ; because there is never a community of fryers , that hath a colledg beyond sea , but hath some agent at rome . l. ch. just . 't is a shame to have one there , not to want one . mr. just . dolb. well , if you have witnesses , i cannot tell what to say . plunket . if i had gotten but to the latter end of the term , i had defied them altogether . and your lordship should have seen under their own hands what they were . l. ch. just . you forget this all this while , your own letter ; wherein this matter is , that you had ●earched the towns and considered it . mr. att. gen. he does deny there was such a letter , he does not own there was such a letter . plunket . i my lord , i never did write such a letter . and that young man that he speaks of , i could prove , if i had my witnesses , that he never was in any service or company in ireland , nor writ any letters by him . l. ch. just . did you never send any letter by one o neale ? plunket . no my lord , but he went over a begging . moyer . this young mans brother in law will testifie , that he was your lordships page . plunket . i have witnesses that he came there begging , naked , and was sick months , and went over a begging , and was at rome as a stragler . moyer . call hanlet , ( who came in ) sir fran. wyth . did you know neale o neale ? hanlet . yes . sir fran. wyth . whose servant was he ? hanlet . my lord plunket sent him to rome ; he was sent there with his letters and i saw the young man and the letters . mr. jones . did he come a begging there ? hanlet . no. plunket . where did you see him . hanlet . at mant. plunket . where is that ? hanlet . in france . plunket . and you saw him with my letters ? hanlet . yes . plunket . and this man says , the letters were opened at caprennica , because he thought they were letters of recommendation . hanlet . why , he went that way afterwards , and they were not opened , when i saw them . mr. ser. jeff. did you know he was the doctors servant ? hanlet . yes , he was . plunkett . did you see him in my service ? hanlet . i saw him in mant. mr. j. dolben . how do you know he was the bishops servant . hanlett . because he shew'd me his letter . l. c. j. was he owned for his servant , and was he taken for his servant . hanlett . yes . plunkett . did he go on foot , or on horseback . hanlett . he went on foot . plunkett . he was in a poor condition in a place not above four miles from rome , that i can prove . l. c. j. did he begg as he went. hanlett . no. l. c. j. mr. plunkett , if there is any question you will ask of the witnesses ; or if there be any evidence you would give your self , this is your time for the doing of it ; if not , we must leave your case to the jury , who have heard the evidence all along . plunkett . only this my lord , your lordships sees how i am dealth with . first and foremost , i have not time to bring my witnesses , or my records , which if i had , i would not weigh one farthing to leave my cause with any jury in the world. besides all this , i am brought out of my own native countrey , where these men lived , and i lived , and where my witnesses and records are , which would shew what these people are . i sent by the post and did all that i could , and what can i say when i have not my witnesses against these people , they may swear any thing in the world ; you cannot but observe the improbability of the thing in it self , and unto what a condition i am brought . my lord , my life is in imminent danger , because i am brought out of my own country , where these people would not be believed against me . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i think this matter lies in a narrow compass , the evidence hath been long ; i would only repeat the short heads of that which hath been given at large . he is indicted for a conspiracy to kill the king , the overt act is an endeavour to introduce a forreign power into ireland , to raise an army , and levy war there ; and the proof of it hath been very full . the proof in general , that there was a plot to introduce the french , is plain by all the witnesses , and the proof in particular upon this person at the barr , hath been as plain as any thing can be . they prove to your lordship in general , that there was an expectation that the french should come in , that there was an invitation of florence wyer the first witness , to go over into france , and speedily he should have a command upon his return , in ireland , that there were preparations ; for this appears by the oath of secrecy given to several men . forty men that came along with bishop tyrrel to keep it private during their lives ; and there was a farther proof of that general conspiracy by duffy , that when there was a general meeting of so many thousand people for confirmation , there was by the gentlemen at that meeting a secret consultation how to carry on the design , and how to list men , and to look out the old officers in th● late rebellion , and to see what posture they were in , as to the management of this design , and this comes now particularly to the prisoner who was by at this consultation , so the witnesses do tell you . but that that comes nearer to him , is , that he did issue out orders for the raising of money , and that he did raise money pursuant to those orders , and did receive money for that very purpose ; this is proved by three witnesses , duffy , and mac legh who paid the money , and by moyer the last witness , who saw him receive it from several persons . this is positive upon him ; nay , they say farther , that there was a list made of the several men , in the several parishes , that were able to bear arms upon occasion , from sixteen to sixty , and there was a list of a matter of threescore thousand men that were ready upon any occasion to rise for the purpose , and this list was delivered over into the hands of the prisoner at the barr. there is one witness , duffy , that saies farther , that he saw a letter under his hand in france to the cardinal bouillon , to invite the french king into ireland , and he did wonder that he should spend his time and blood in wars against spain , which was a roman catholick , and not come into ireland to extirpate the hereticks . and this letter is confirmed by another letter , which was seen by moyer , a copy of which is produced , which he translated from the original in latin , and the letter was sent to rome by neale o neale , whom the prisoner saies he had no concern for , but to give him some recommendations . plunkett . i gave him no recommendations . l. c. j. no , he saies he did not give him any , nor sent any letter by him . mr. sol. gen. then he urged , that he went along begging by the way , but 't is proved he was sent by him , and sent with letters , and that by his brother in law , who met him at mants . and 't is proved by moyer , who saw the letter opened , taking it to be but a common letter of recommendation , he read the letter and took a copy of it , and translated that copy , which translation is enough to verify all the matter which the witnesses have sworn , for 't is agreeing to what he said to cardinal bouillon in his other letter , that it was more proper for the catholick princes to agree together to extirpate heresy , than to vary amongst themselves , that now was the time : for there were threescore thousand men ready to rise upon such an invasion . this is the substance of the letter , and this proves fully the conspiracy this man was ingaged in , his receiving money , his listing men , and his invitation of forreign princes . and this is fully proved . mr. serj. maynard . and so his viewing the ports too . mr. sol. gen. it was likewise agreed that carlingford should be the port , and 't is like enough to be the port , for 't is a very large port , that ships of the greatest burthen may come up to the town , and the town it self but a weak town . this is the substance of the evidence , and this is proof enough , we think , to convict any man of this fact. mr. serj. jefferies . my lord , i shall trouble you but with one word that hath been omitted . i think 't is a cause of great example , and that thing which the prisoner seems to make his excuse hath been answered by a favor and indulgence from the court in a very extraordinary manner . for , in as much as this gentleman would make it a very hard case , that he is brought out of his own country , and hath not his witnesses ; it is very well known that by a particular favor of the court , which is not usual in these cases , he had between five and six weeks time for preparation for his tryal : so that truly as to what does appear , i think all the witnesses that have been examined , are witnesses to be credited , except you gentlemen , of your selves can convict upon your own knowledge these persons of any misdemeanor , which i think you cannot , much less of perjury . but besides , the witnesses we have produced , all which speak to the plot in general , and four of them fix it upon the person at the bar ; they speak particularly , and every one agrees in circumstances , and that other that spoke mincingly , i put it upon ; it is the greatest evidence that can be . for that person that could come before a grand-jury , and there be the main witness , but when he comes here , must be scru'd and pump'd to discover the seventy thousand men . and i suppose you did observe how difficult it was to kno ' of him , whether this person was primate of ireland , or whether it were from the authority of the king or the pope , a very probable thing , that he should be such a one as the king designed to be primate and superintendent of ireland . further my lord , this i desire to take notice of too , that wyer , the first witness , fixes four particular things upon the prisoner at the bar , which have not yet been taken notice of . first , he fixes a discourse with another person that was competitor with him for this very office , bishop duffy , and he gives the reason why he was admitted into the office rather than the other , because he was a man of greater ability to carry on the design , and tho' he does not give you an account of the design ; yet the rest of the evidence do , and make it to be the design then carrying on . another thing is , he tells you of the sending one into france , that was to come back again in order to this design , i think his name was mac donnel , and then the great tory flemming and he were to come back again collonels in the army that was to be raised . the next person , that fixes it upon him , is mr. han o neal , and he gives the plainest circumstances , that at a time in august when bishop tyrrell came to the house of one bradey with so many men well equipped with such and such arms , and took the oath of secrecy ; he himself , but not only he , but the other priest mac legh , was present at the same time , and took the said oath , and he does tell you that that very priest was sent to dublin to discover it at that very time , and so he hath fixed the person , and time , and the business they came about . then mac legh comes and tells you the same thing in every circumstance ; ay , but says the prisoner at the bar , and he would make it to be a great objection , how chance that they have concealed this all the while , and not discovered it to some justice of the peace ? why , says one , i was under your jurisdiction in that place , that is the very reason he gives wherefore he durst not , and says another , i was concerned and as earnest as the prisoner or any body else , but going into france , i observed the slavery that all the subjects were under , under the tyranny of that king , and apprehending that the same king was to come into ireland by the means of these gentlemen ; i was concerned at it , and had rather the devil should reign over us than such an one , and therefore i will discover it . and he said very well i think , that he had rather have the devil to reign ; for it seems to be him , or one in his shape that reigns after that manner . and there are two persons that swear to the vey year that they were obliged to raise the money , and swear positively , they saw his orders sub poena suspensio●is , i do not know whether they mean hang'd or suspended from their office. but it seems it was so terrible , that it made them pay twenty shillings a piece for three years successively . and there is another gentleman that tells you , that out of a small living , wherein he was concerned only as curate to a third person it had been paid two or three times , and another tho' he was exempt himself from the payment , yet so great a confident was he of the prisoner's at the bar , that he was present when he saw thirty or fourty pay this tax , and whereas the prisoner at the bar would make it thought a strange thing , that he should raise so much money , who had but an house seven foot high , it seems there is above that thatched house a chappel . plunkett . there is no chappel . sr. geo. jefferies . but now my lord , that which substantially proves what these witnesses say , is the letter that is sent to rome to the secratary of the college de propaganda fide , which is the last letter that the last gentleman speaks of , wherein he does particularly take notice , that he had taken care to raise such moneys , and view all the ports and places of strength . and my lord , that which is a very great circumstance to back the evidence of the first letter to the french cardinal bouillon which was taken notice of by the first witness , and there is such a passage in this too , that the catholick princes should not spill one anothers blood , when they might better employ it here in ireland for the propagation of the faith ; this last letter takes particular notice of that very instance too , that instead of drawing their swords against one another , they had better come to promote the catholick faith in ireland . these four witnesses are punctual and precise in every particular circumstance of the case , and against them there is nothing but the common objection . if i had such records , and witnesses here i could make my defence , that is , if he had those things that he has not , he might appear to be another man than he is ; but i am sure , as it appears upon the evidence that hath been given by all the witnesses , there is a plain proof and a full proof of every treason laid to his charge . plunkett . my lord , i desire these witnesses may be called [ giving in a paper . ] cryer . david fitz-gerard , eustace commines and paul gormar . l. c. j. who gave him this paper , he had it not before ? stranger . i was told that these were good evidences for dr. plunket , and i gave him the names . l. c. j. where are they ? stranger . they are hard by . mr. att. gen. where is eustace commines , for he was one that gave in evidence against the prisoner . then paul gormar appeared . l. c. j. what would you ask him ? plunket . i desire to know of him , whether mr. moyer did allute and intioe him to swear against me ? gormar . indeed my lord he never did . l. c. j. will you ask him any more ? gormar . but this my lord , mr. moyer and i were in discourse , and he said if there was law to be had in ireland , he would shew mr. plunket his share in it . l. c. j. well , what of that ? gormar . my lord , i did come out of ireland to reveal what plots the irish had against the king , and as for this mr. plunket , as i have a soul to save , i never heard of any misdemeanor of him . mr. j. dolben . how came you here to day ? gormar . i was summoned . mr. j. dolben . by whom ? was it the attorney general or plunket that summoned you ? gormar . here is the summons . mr. serj. jefferies . it is a common sub poena . plunket . i never sent for him , gormar . it was not against you , they know i had nothing against you , i thought you did more good in ireland than hurt , so i declare it . l. c. j. have you any more witnesses ? if fitz-gerard or commines will come , we will hear them . plunket . my lord , i have not any more witnesses . l. c. j. look you gentlemen of the jury , this gentleman here mr. plunket , is indicted of high-treason , and 't is for conspiring the king's death , and endeavouring to bring the french army into ireland for to invade that kingdom , and to plant the romish religion in that kingdom . you have had evidence against him that hath been fully examined . and these things do seem to be very plain by the witnesses , that he himself hath taken a commission , or a grant , or what you will please to call it , from the pope to be primate of ireland , that he hath taken upon him to make laws as the provincial , and that he hath undertaken and endeavoured to settle the popish religion in that kingdom , and in order to that , he hath invited the aid of the french army , and that he hath for the better landing of them , looked out what places were most convenient for them ; that he hash set a tax upon the clergy within his province for the facilitating of all this , and for the making preparations for the entertainment of this army . this the wittnesses testifie against him , and that there were some towns , as d●ngannon and another town , that were to be betrayed to the frenh . now you must consider concerning these witnesses : if you believe the evidence that hath been given , and which hath been repeated by the kings counsel , and if you believe that he did design to bring in a french army , to establish the roman religion there again , and that he took upon him to raise money for that purpose , survey'd the ports , and made such provisions , as the witnesses speak of , and was in that conspiracy ; you must find him guilty , i leave it to you , it is a pretty strong evidence , he does not say any thing to it , but that his witnesses are not come over . plunkett . i can say nothing to it , but give my own protestation , that there is not one word of this said against me is true , but all plain romance , i never had any communication with any french minister , cardinal , nor other . then the jury withdrew for a quarter of an hour , and being returned gave this verdict . cl. of cr. oliver plunkett , hold up thy hand . how say you , is he guilty of the high-treason whereof he stands indi cted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . plunkett . deo gratia , god be thanked . then the verdict was recorded , and the court rose . and the keeper went away with his prisoner . on wednesday mo . junii , . oliver plunkett was brought to the barr to receive his judgment . mr. att. gen. my lord , i pray your judgment against the prisoner oliver plunkett . cl. of cr. oliver plunkett , hold up thy hand ; thou hast been indicted of high-treason , thou hast been thereupon arraigned , thou haft thereunto pleaded not guilty , and for thy trial hast put thy self upon god and the country , which country hath found thee guilty , what hast thou to say for thy self , why judgment of death should not pass upon thee , and execution be thereupon awarded according to the law. plunkett . my lord , may it please your lordship , i have something to say , which if your lordship will consider seriously , may occasion the courts commiseration and mercy . i have my lord for this fact been arraigned in ireland , and brought to my trial there . at the day of my tryal all the witnesses voluntarily absented themselves , seeing i had records and witnesses to convince them evidently and shew what men they were , and the prepensed malice that they did bear to me , and so finding that i could clear my self evidently , they absented themselves , on the day of my tryal no christian appeared , but hither over they come , and procure that i should be brought hither , where i could not have a jury that knew the qualities of my adversaries , or who knew me , or the circumstances of the places , times , and persons ; the juries here as i say were altogether strangers to these affairs , and so my lord they could not know many things that conduce to a fair tryal , and it was morally impossible they should know it . i have been accused principally and chiefly for surveying the ports , for fixing upon carlingford for the landing of the french , for the having of seventy thousand men ready to joyn with the french , for collecting money for the agents in this matter , for the assisting of the french and this great utopian army . a jury in ireland consisting of men that lived in that country , or any man in th● wo●●d that hath but seen ireland in a map , would easily see there was no probability that that should be a place sit for the french to land in , tho' he never was in ireland , yet by the map , he would see they must come between the narrow seas all along to ulster , and the rocks , and such places would make it very dangerous ; and by their own confession it was a poor town , and of no strength , a very small garrison , which had not been so , if it had been a place of any consideration . and whereas i had influence only upon one province , as is well known , tho' i had the title of primate of all ireland , as the arch-bishop of canterbury hath of all england ; yet the arch-bishop of york will not permit him to meddle with his province ; and 't is well known by the gentry there , and those that are accustomed to the place ; that in all the province of ulster , take men , women , and children of the roman catholicks , they could not make up seventy thousand . this , a jury there my lord had known very well , and therefore the laws of england , which are very favourable to the prisoner , have provided that there should be a jury of the place where the fact was committed , as sr. thomas gascoine , as i have heard , had a yorkshire jury , tho' he was tryed at london . and then after my coming here , i was kept close prisoner for six months , not any christian was permitted to come at me , nor did i know any thing , how things stood in the world. i was brought here the third of may , to be arraigned , and i did petition your lordship to have some time for my tryal , and i would have had it put off till michaelmass , but your lordships did not think fit to grant so long , but only till the eighth of this month , when my witnesses who were ready at the sea side , would not come over without passes , and i could not get over the records without an order from hence ; which records would have shewn that some of the witnesses were indicted and found guilty of high crimes , some wer e imprisoned for robberies , and some of the witnesses were ●nfamous people , so i petitioned the eighth of this month , that i might have time but for twelve days more , but your lordship thought , when the motion was made , that it was only to put off my tryal , and now my witnesses are come to coventry yesterday morning , and they will be here in a few days , and so for want of time to desend my self in , i was exposed to my adversaries , who were some of my own clergy , whom for their debauched lives , i have corrected , as is well known there . i will not deny my self , but that as long as there was any toleration and connivance , i did execute the function of a bishop , and that by the second of elizabeth is only a premunire , and no treason . so that my lord , i was exposed defenceless to my enemies , whereas now my witnesses are come , that could make all appear . i did begg for twelve days time , whereby you might have seen as plain as the sun , what those witnesses are , that began the story , and say these things against me . and my lord , for those depositions of the seventy thousand men , and the monies that are collected of the clergy in ireland , they cannot be true , for they are a p●or clergy that have no revenue nor land ; they live as the presbyterians do here , there is not a priest in all ireland , that hath certainly o● uncertainly above threescore pounds a year , and that i should collect of them forty shillings a piece , for the raising of an army , or for the landing of the french at carlingford ; if it had been brought before a jury in ireland , it would have been thought a meer romance . if they had accused me of a praemunire for the exercise of my episcopal function , perhaps they had said some thing that might have been believed , but my lord , as i am a dying man , and hope for salvation by my lord and savior , i am not guilty of one point of treason they have swore against me , no more than the child that was born , but yesterday . i have an attestation under my lord of essex's hand concerning my good behavior in ireland , and not only from him , but from my lord berkly , who was also governor there , which the kings attorney saw ; but here i was brought , here i was tryed , and having not time to bring my witnesses , i could not prove my innocency , as otherwise i might . so that , if there be any case in the world that deserves compassion , surely my case does ; and 't is such a rare case , as i believe you will not find two of them in print , that one arraigned in ireland , should be tryed here afterwards for the same fact. my lord , if there be any thing in the world that deserves pity , this does , for i can say , as i hope for mercy , i was never guilty of any one point they have swore against me , and if my petition for time had been granted , i could have shewn how all was prepense malice against me , and have produced all circumstances that could make out the innocency of a person . but not having had time , and being tryed , i am at your mercy . l. c. j. well , you have nothing further to say in bar of judgment , you have said all you can ? plunket . i have nothing further to say , but what i have said . then proclamation was made for silence , while judgment was passing upon the prisoner . l. c. j. look you mr. plunket , you have been here indicted of a very great and hainous crime , the greatest and most hainous of all crimes , and that is , high-treason ; and truly yours is a treason of the highest nature , 't is a treason in truth against god and your king , and the countrey where you lived . you have done as much as you could to dishonor god in this case ; for the bottom of your treason was , your setting up your false religion , than which , there is not any thing more displeasing to god , or more pernicious to mankind in the world . a religion that is ten times worse than all the heathenish superstitions , the most dishonorable and derogatory to god and his glory of all religions or pretended religions whatsoever , for it undertakes to dispense with gods laws , and to pardon the breach of them . so that certainly a greater crime there cannot be committed against god , than for a man to endeavour the propagation of that religion ; but you , to effect this , have designed the death of your lawful prince and king. and then your design of blood in the kingdom where you lived , to set all together by the ears , to destroy poor innocent people , to prostitute their lives and liberties , and all that is dear to them , to the tyranny of rome , and france ; and that by introducing a french army . what greater evil can be designed by any man , i mention these things , because they have all been fully proved against you ; and that you may take notice , and repent of them , and make your peace with god , by a particular application for mercy for all these faults ; for it seems to me , that against god , your prince , and fellow subjects , you have behaved your self very ill , designing very great evil to all these ; and now it hath pleased god to bring you to judgment . i must tell you , peradventure what you urge for your self might introduce pity , if it were to be believed , that is , that you are innocent , and had witnesses to prove it , but we cannot suppose any man innocent , that hath had a legal and a fair tryal , and a tryal with as much candor to you , as your case could bear , or as perhaps any man in such a case ever had . you had time upon your request to send for your witnesses , to help you in your defence , and to have proved your innocence , if you could have done it ; time long enough to your own content , you your self thought it so , at the time it was given . to give a prisoner under your circumstances , five or six weeks time to send for witnesses , is not usual , we could have put you upon a present defence , and hurryed you out of the world by a suddain tryal , if we had had any design against you ; but we go on in a fair way , and with legal proceedings , and with as much respect to you , as in such a case could be used , for we gave you all the fair hearing and liberty that you desired to have . look you , as to what you urge , that your trial was in this kingdom , whereas your offence was in another , that is a thing that do's not become you by any means to object ; for you have had a tryal here by honest persons , and that according to the laws which obtain in this kingdom , and that too of ireland , which is by a statute not made on purpose to bring you into a snare , but an antient statute , and not without presidents of its having been put in execution before your time . for your own country will afford you several presidents in this case , as o rurke , and several others that have been arrained and condemned for treason done there . so that you have no reason to except against the legality of your tryal . you say , now you have witnesses that could prove all this matter , why that lyes in the mouth of any man that is condemned to say ; but pray consider with your self , what regard ought to be given to this . we cannot help it , if your witnesses don't come , you may remember they wanted not time nor opportunity to come over , but you told us they would not come unless they had a passeport . plunkett . my lord , they got a pass to come over afterwards , and so in eight days they came hither . l. c. j. you might have provided your self , if they wanted such a thing . in the first place , no body is bound to give it them ; much less could you expect it for them without asking . plunkett . i could not get the copies of the records neither by any means , unless i had an order from the council , and they would not give that order , unless your lordship appointed it . l. c. j. we cannot tell that , you should have petitioned in time . plunkett . how could any one soresee , unless he was god almighty , that they would deny it , or that he could not get out a copy of a record , paying for it , without a petition . all the friends i had , told me upon motion there , it might be had , but here i have it under the lieutenants and councils hands , that they would give no copy of records without order from hence , which before i could know it , it was impossible for me to have them ready against my tryal . l. c. j. look you sir , i do speak this to you , to shew you that those objections , which you seem to make against your tryal , have no weight at all , but in this case it is not the jury that are so material as the witnesses themselves . i appeal to all that heard your tryal , if they could so much as doubt but that you were guilty of what you were charged with . for consider , here were persons that were of your own religion , the most of them priests , i think almost all of them in orders . plunkett . there were two fryers , and a priest whom i have endeavoured to correct this seven years , and they were renegadoes from our religion , and declared apostates . l. c. j. look you sir , they gave an evidence very home to your matter ; you had liberty to examine them , and they gave you a rational accompt of any thing you ask'd . let me but put you in mind of one thing . you made exceptions to one's evidence , ( and indeed that was very much of your exception to all ) why he did not reveal this in all that time : truly he told you he was of your mind , till he went into france , and saw what a slavery and mischief you endeavoured to introduce upon his and your own countrymen , and this his spirit rose against , to see what a condition ireland was like to be brought into . and pray , did not he give you a full answer to that question ? plunkett . i had sufficient witnesses to prove he was an apostate , and was chastised by me , and therefore had prepensed malice against me . l. c. j. therefore i have spoken this to the satisfaction , i hope , of your self and all that hear it . i do now wish you to consider , you are near your end . it seems you have lived in a false religion hitherto ; it is not too late at any time to repent , i wish you may have the grace to do so ; in the mean time there is no room for us here , to grant you any king of mercy , tho' i 'le tell you , we are inclined to pity all malefactors : who ever have done evil , we are inclined to pity them , and wish heartily that they may repent , as we do , that you may , of what you have done . but all we can do now , is to say , what the law saies , and that is to pass judgment upon you . plunkett . may it please your lordship to give me leave to speak one word . if i were a man that had no care of my conscience in this matter , and did not think of god almighty , or conscience , or heaven , or hell , i might have saved my life ; for i was offered it by divers people here , so i would but confess my own guilt , and accuse others . but my lord , i had rather dye ten thousand deaths , than wrongfully accuse any body . and the time will come when your lordship will see what these witnesses are , that have come in against me . i do assure your lordship , if i were a man that had not good principles , i might easily have saved my own life , but i had rather dye ten thousand deaths , than wrongfully to take away one farthing of any man's goods , one day of his liberty , or one minute of his life . l. c. j. i am sorry to see you persist in the principles of that religion . plunkett . they are those principles , that even god almighty cannot dispence with all . l. c. j. well , however the judgment which we give you , is that which the law saies and speaks . and therefore you must goe from hence , to the place from whence you came , that is to newgate , and from thence you shall be drawn through the city of london , to tyburne ; there you shall be hanged by the neck , but cut down before you are dead , your bowels shall be taken out , and burnt before your face , your head shall be cut off , and your body be divided into four quarters , to be disposed of as his majesty pleases . and i pray god to have mercy upon your soul. plunkett . my lord , i hope i may have this favor , of leave , for a servant and some few friends that i have , to come at me . l. c. j. i think you may have liberty for any servant to come to you , i know nothing to the contrary . plunkett . and some friends that i have in town . l. c. j. but i would advise you to have some minister to come to you , some protestant minister . plunkett . my lord , if you please , there are some in prison , that never were indicted , or accused of any crime , and they will do my business very well ; for they will do it according to the rites of our own church , which is the antient usage , they cannot do better , and i would not alter it now . l. c. j. mr. richardson , you may let his servant come to him , and any friend in your presence , to see there be no evil done , nor any contrivances that may hereafter have an influence upon affairs . mr. just . jones . be you present , or some body . plunkett . my servant i hope may come , without his being present . l. c. j. yes , yes , his servant may be with him alone . well ●r . we wish better to you , than you do to your self . plunkett . god almighty bless your lordship . and now my lord , as i am a dead man to this world , and as i hope for mercy in the other world , i was never guilty of any of the treasons laid to my charge , as you will hear in time ; and my character you may receive from my lord chancellor of ireland , my lord berkley , my lord essex , and the duke of ormond . then the keeper took away his prisoner , and upon friday the first of july , he was executed according to the sentence . finis . lately published the arraignment and plea of edward fitz-harris esquire , with all the arguments in law , and proceedings of the court of kings-bench thereupon , in easter term , . price , s. d. the proceedings at the sessions house in the old-baily, london on thursday the th day of november, before his majesties commissioners of oyer and terminer upon the bill of indictment for high-treason against anthony earl of shaftsbury : published by his majesties special command. shaftesbury, anthony ashley cooper, earl of, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing p estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the proceedings at the sessions house in the old-baily, london on thursday the th day of november, before his majesties commissioners of oyer and terminer upon the bill of indictment for high-treason against anthony earl of shaftsbury : published by his majesties special command. shaftesbury, anthony ashley cooper, earl of, - . england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). [ ], p. printed for samuel mearne and john baker, london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng shaftesbury, anthony ashley cooper, -- earl of, - . treason -- great britain. trials (treason) -- great britain. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the proceedings at the sessions house in the old-baily , london , on thursday the th day of november , . before his majesties commissioners of oyer and terminer , upon the bill of indictment for high-treason against anthony earl of shaftsbvry . published by his majesties special command . london , printed for samuel mearne and john baker , . the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , london , on thursday the th of november , . the grand-jury . sir samuel barnardiston . john morden . thomas papillon . john dubois . charles hearle . edward rudge . humphrey edwin . john morrice . edmund harrison . joseph wright . john cox. thomas parker . leonard robinson . thomas shepherd . john flavell . michael godfrey . joseph richardson . william empson . andrew kendrick . john lane. john hall. the oath . you shall diligently inquire , and true presentment make , of all such matters , articles , and things , as shall be given you in charge , as of all other matters and things as shall come to your own knowledge , touching this present service , the kings council , your fellows , and your own , you shall keep secret ; you shall present no person for hatred or malice ; neither shall you leave any one unpresented for fear , favour , or affection , for lucre or gain , or any hopes thereof , but in all things you shall present the truth , the whole truth , and nothing but the truth , to the best of your knowledge . so help you god. l. c. j. pemberton . gentlemen of the jury , we are all met here in one of the most solemn assemblies of this nation ; it is upon the execution of justice upon such as shall be found offenders , and guilty of the breach of the king's laws . this commission by which we sit , and you are summoned , doth in its nature extend to all offences whatsoever against the laws of the land , treasons , misprisions of treasons , felonies , and all other crimes and offences against the king and his government , such as are vulgarly called pleas of the crown ; they all fall under our cognizance , and your enquiry in a general manner . but i must tell you , there is a particular occasion for this commission at this time . his majesty having information of some evil , trayterous designs against his person and government , has thought fit to direct a due examination of them , and that the persons may be brought to condign punishment who shall be found guilty thereof . you must not therefore expect any general and formal charge from me ; truly i came hither this morning , with an apprehension , that you had had your directions given you before by the recorder , for it is our usual way not to come until the juries are sworn in this place , and their directions given them ; but since i find it otherwise , i take it to be my duty to say something to you , but shall not go about now to make any such formal charge , as in commissions of this nature is wont to be done , nor to give an account of all offences that fall under your enquiry of a grand inquest , impannelled by vertue of such a commission at large : nor must you expect i should acquaint you with all the crimes that you may enquire of as such an inquest . i shall content my self so far , as on the sudden i can recollect my thoughts , to acquaint you with the nature of those bills ; with the enquiry whereof , you shall at present , upon this occasion , be troubled , and your duty concerning that enquiry . i hinted to you at first , that they are matters of high-treason , which is a crime of the greatest and highest nature of any crime that can be committed against man ; other crimes , as felonies , riots , trespasses , and things of that nature , they may occasion disorders and troubles in a state or a kingdom . but , i must tell you , treason strikes at the root and life of all ; it tends to destroy the very government , both king and subjects , and the lives , interest and liberties of all , and therefore has always been look'd upon as a crime of the most notorious nature that can be whatsoever , and accordingly punishments have been appointed for it of the highest and severest extremity . there was at common law great variety of opinions concerning treason , and there were many disputes about it what should be treason , and what not ; and therefore it was thought fit , by the wisdom of our ancestors , to have a law to declare treason : and by the statute of the th of edward the d , there was a plain declaration made of what was treason , and what not : by that law , for any one to compass , imagine , or intend the death of the king , ( for i will give you no more of that statute , nor concerning the sense thereof , than may be for your purpose now ) ; i say , by that law , to compass , imagine , or intend the death of the king , and to declare it by overt-act , or to levy war against the king were declared ( amongst other things in that statute mentioned ) to be high-treason : and this hath obtained for law among us ever since ; and by that standing law , nothing is to be accounted treason , but what is therein particularly declared so ; but upon many emergent occasions there hath been several other laws , as the case hath required now and then , for to declare and bring other particular crimes within the compass of treasons : so there was a law made in queen elizabeths reign , for enacting several crimes to be treasons , during her life , which was made upon the occasion of the inveterate malice of the roman catholicks against her and her government ; and so there hath been in other kings reigns upon other occasions . amongst the rest , it was thought fit by the parliament assembled here , in the thirteenth year of this present king , to make a particular law for the enacting and declaring several crimes to be treasons , during this kings life ; they had great grounds , and too much occasion for it , and so they express it in the preamble of that law. the wounds which the then late treasons had made , that had so far obtained in this kingdom , were then still bleeding , ripe , and scarcely closed ; many trayterous positions , and many seditious principles were spread , and had obtained and gained footing among the people of this kingdom ; and the parliament had reason to believe , that where they had been so maliciously bent against the king and his family , and had taken off his father , and maintained so long and dangerous a war against him , almost to the utter destruction and extirpation of him , and all his good subjects , and of his , and all our interests , properties , and liberties , and had almost destroy'd a flourishing kingdom : here they had reason , i say , to be careful , to prevent the like mischiefs for the future ; therefore , gentlemen , they did think fit to make a new law for this purpose : and whereas the law before was , that it should be treason to compass , imagine , or intend the death of the king , so as it were declared by overt-act ; now they thought it would be dangerous to stay till an overt-act should declare the intention ; for when they had seen such malicious and evil designs against the king and supreme authority ; and that they had prevailed so far , as to murder one king , and banish another ; and had gone a great way in the destruction of the government of this kingdom , absolutely to root it quite out : they had reason then , as much as they could , to prevent the designs before they should grow full ripe , and vent themselves in overt-acts ; therefore it was enacted by that statute , made in the th year of this kings reign , that if any one should compass , imagine , or intend the death of the king , or his destruction , or any bodily harm , that might tend to his death or destruction , or any maiming or wounding his person , any restraint of his liberty , or any imprisonment of him ; or if any should design or intend to levy any war against him , either within the kingdom , or without ; or should design , intend , endeavour , or procure any foreign prince to invade these his dominions , or any other of the kings dominions , and should signifie or declare this by any writing , or by any preaching or printing , or by any advised , malicious speaking , or words , this shall be high-treason . now this hath altered the former law greatly , especially in two cases : first as to levying of war ; the intention was not treason before , unless it had taken effect , and war had been actually levied : and then as to the designing and compassing the kings death , that was not treason , unless it was declared by an overt-act : and as to the imprisoning , or restraining of the liberty of the king , they of themselves alone were not high-treason ; but now by this law these are made treason , by this law , during his majesties life : and the very designing of them , whether they take effect , or not take effect , though it be prevented ( before any overt act , ) by the timely prudence of the king and his officers , though it should be timely prevented , that there is no hurt done ; yet the very design , if it be but utter'd and spoken , and any ways signified by any discourse ; this ( gentlemen ) is made treason , by this act ; and this hath wrought very great alteration in the case of treason now ; formerly it was said , and said truly enough , that words alone would not make treason ; but since this act , gentlemen , words , if they import any malicious design against the kings life and government ; any trayterous intention in the party ; such words are treason now within this act : and this act was made with great prudence , and with great care to take off that undue liberty that men had taken to themselves ; in those times of licentiousness , people had taken to themselves an undecent , and undue liberty to vent all their seditious and malicious minds one to another , without any restraint at all : therefore now , gentlemen , you must consider , that words , if they signifie or purport any trayterous ▪ intention or design in the party , either against the king or his government ; either to restrain his liberty , or imprison him , or to do him any bodily hurt , or any crime of that nature ; this is treason within this act of parliament . look ye , gentlemen , now as to the indictments that shall be brought before you , you are to consider these things : . whether the matter contained in them , and which you shall have in evidence , be matter of treason within the former , or this act of parliament ? and here , if you doubt of it , then you must advise with us that are commissionated by his majesty to hear and determine these crimes ; and in matters of law we shall direct you : and you are to enquire if there be two witnesses that shall testifie the matters in evidence to you , for without two witnesses no man is to be impeached within these laws ; but if there be two witnesses that shall testifie to you matters to make good the indictments , then you have ground to find the indictments . but i must tell you as to this case of two witnesses , it is not necessary that they should be ; two witnesses to the same words , or to words spoken at one time , or in the same place ; that is not necessary : if one be a witness to words that import any trayterous design and intention , spoken at one time , and in one place ; and another testifie other seditious and trayterous words , spoken at another time , and in another place ; these two are two good witnesses within this statute , and so it hath been solemnly resolved by all the judges of england upon a solemn occasion . look ye , gentlemen , i must tell you , that that which is referr'd to you , is to consider , whether upon what evidence you shall have given unto you , there be any reason or ground for the king to call these persons to an account ; if there be probable ground , it is as much as you are to enquire into : you are not to judge the persons , but for the honour of the king , and the decency of the matter ; it is not thought fit by the law , that persons should be accused and indicted , where there is no colour nor ground for it ; where there is no kind of suspition of a crime , nor reason to believe , that the thing can be proved , it is not for the king's honour to call men to an account in such cases : therefore you are to enquire , whether that that you hear be any cause or reason for the king to put the party to answer it . you do not condemn , nor is there such a strict enquiry to be made by you , as by others , that are sworn to try a fact , or issue : a probable cause , or some ground , that the king hath to call these persons to answer for it , is enough , gentlemen , for you to find a bill , 't is as much as is by law required . gentlemen , you must consider this , that as it is a crime for to condemn innocent persons , so it is a crime as great to acquit the guilty , and that god that requires one of them , requires both ; so that you must be as strict in the one , as you would be in the other . and let me tell you , if any of you shall be refractory , and will not find any bill , where there is a probable ground for an accusation , you do therein undertake to intercept justice , and you thereby make your selves criminals , and guilty , and the fault will lye at your door . you must consider , gentlemen , you are under a double obligation here to do right ; you are under the obligation of english-men , as we are all members of one great body , of which the king is head ; and you are engag'd , as english-men , to consider , that crimes of this nature ought not to go unpunish'd : then you have an oath of god upon you , you are here sworn to do according to what the evidence is . now therefore , if you have two witnesses of words that may import a treasonable design or intention in any of those parties , against whom you shall have indictments offer'd to you , you are bound both by the law of nature , as you are members of this body ; and by the law of god , as you have taken an oath upon you , for to find those bills . gentlemen , compassion or pity is not your province , nor ours in this case ; there is no room for that in enquiries of this nature , that is reserv'd to an higher and superiour power , from which ours is deriv'd : therefore , gentlemen , i must require you to consider such evidence as shall be given you , and to be impartial according to what you shall hear from the witnesses , if you have ground , upon what evidence you shall have given to you , to believe , that there is any reason or cause for the king to call the persons named in such indictments , as shall be tender'd to you , to answer for what is objected against them therein , you are to find those bills , that is all that i shall say to you , only pray god to direct you in your enquiry , that justice may take place . [ then a bill of high-treason was offer'd against the earl of shaftsbury , and sir francis withens moved , that the evidence might be heard in court. ] l. c. j. gentlemen of the jury , you hear it is desired by the king's council , ( and that we cannot deny ) that the evidence may be publickly given , that it may not be hereafter in the mouths of any ill-minded persons abroad , to scatter any mistakes or untruths up and down , or to slander the king's evidence , or to say any thing concerning them that is not true : therefore we cannot deny this motion of the king's council , but desire that you will take your places , and hear the evidence that shall be given you . [ the jury then desired a copy of their oath , which the court granted , and then they withdrew . after some little time they returned , and then the clerk called them by their names . ] foreman . my lord chief justice , it is the opinion of the jury , that they ought to examine the witnesses in private , and it hath been the constant practice of our ancestors and predecestors to do it , and they insist upon it as our right to examine in private , because they are bound to keep the king 's secrets , which they cannot do if it be done in court. l. c. j. look ye gentlemen of the jury , it may very probably be , that some late usage has brought you into this error , that it is your right ; but it is not your right in truth : for i will tell you , i take the reason of that use for grand juries to examine the witnesses privately and out of court , to comply with the conveniencies of the court , for generally upon such commissions as these are , the business is much ; and at gaol-deliveries there are a great many persons to be indicted and tried , and much other work besides , of other natures , to be done : and if at such times we should examine all businesses publickly in the court , it would make the business of these commissions of a wonderful great length and cumbrance . therefore the judges , for the conveniency of the matter , have allow'd , that witnesses should go to the jury , and they to examine them ; not that there is any matter of right in it , for without question originally all evidences were given in court ; the jury are officers and ministers of the court by which they enquire , and evidence sure was all given in court formerly ; and the witnesses still are always sworn in court , and never otherwise . and , gentlemen , i must tell you , 't is for your advantage , as well as for the king 's , that it may be sure , that you comply with your evidence , that you do nothing clandestinely ; therefore 't is for your advantage that this is done , and the king likewise desires it . now i must tell you , that if the king require it of us , and it is a thing that is in its nature indifferent , we ought to comply with the king's desire , to have it examin'd in court ; you shall have all the liberty that you can have in private ; what question soever you will have ask'd , your selves shall ask it , if you please , and we will not cramp you in time , nor any thing of that nature . therefore , gentlemen , there can be no kind of reason why this evidence should not be given in court. what you say concerning your keeping your councels , that is quite of another nature , that is , your debates , and those things , there you shall be in private for to consider of what you hear publickly . but certainly it is the best way , both for the king , and for you , that there should , in a case of this nature , be an open and plain examination of the witnesses , that all the world may see what they say . foreman . my lord , if your lordship pleases , i must beg your lordship's pardon ; if i mistake in any thing , it is contrary to the sence of what the jury apprehend . first , they apprehend that the very words of the oath doth bind them , it says , that they shall keep the council's , and their own secrets : now , my lord , there can be no secret in publick ; the very intimation of that doth imply , that the examination should be secret ; besides , my lord , i beg your lordship's pardon if we mistake , we do not understand any thing of law. mr. papillon . your lordship is pleased to say , that it hath been the common usage and practice ; sometimes , my lord , we have heard , that that hath been the law of england , that hath been the custom of england : if it be the ancient usage and custom of england , that hath never been alter'd from time to time , and hath continued so , we desire your lordship's opinion upon that , as we would not do any thing that may be prejudicial to the king ▪ so we would not do the least that should be prejudicial to the liberties of the people ; if it be the ancient custom of the kingdom to examine in private , then there is something may be very prejudicial to the king in this publick examination ; for sometimes in examining witnesses in private , there come to be discover'd some persons guilty of treason , and misprision of treason , that were not ▪ known , nor . thought on before . then the jury sends down to the court , and gives them intimation , and these men are presently secur'd ; whereas , my lord , in case they be examined in open court publickly , then presently there is intimation given , and these men are gone away . another thing that may be prejudicial to the king , is , that all the evidences here will be foreknown before they come to the main tryal upon issue by the petty-jury ; then if there be not a very great deal of care , these witnesses may be confronted by raising up witnesses to prejudice them , as in some cases it has been : then besides , the jury do apprehend that in private , they are more free to examine things in particular for the satisfying their own consciences , and that without favour or affection ; and we hope we shall do our duty . l. c. j. look ye , mr. papillon , it is reasonable that we should give you our advice in this case : i must tell you , if you had consider'd of what i had said before , i thought i had obviated these objections : first as to that that you do say , that you are bound ▪ to conceal your councels , and the kings secrets , that is very true ; as to your councels , that is ▪ your debates , you are bound to conceal them : as to the kings secrets , so long as he will have them kept secret , you are bound to keep them so too , but it doth not deprive the king of the benefit of having it publick , if he have a desire for it ; you don't break your oath , if the king will make it publick ; you don't make it publick , 't is the king does it . then as to that that you do say , that you apprehend the common usage of the kingdom to be a law ; that is true , mr. papillon , in some sence ; a constant and uninterrupted usage goes for a law among us ▪ but i thought i had told you before , that both of ancient and later times there have been examinations of the witnesses in court in cases of this nature ; and we are not without presidents of it every year , every term , continually from time to time , evidence is heard in court by the grand-jury ; it is as usual a thing with us , as any thing , if it be desired , nothing more frequent , or more common : i never heard it deny'd , or stood upon by any grand-jury in my life , till of late here ; you may be instructed with a thousand presidents , for i am sure it is a common and ordinary case upon such occasions , if desired to hear the evidence in court. look ye , gentlemen , as to that care that you have of the kings affairs , the king has reason to take it well that you are so careful for them ; and that you are so mindful of his concerns , he hath a great deal of reason to think well of you for it : and , gentlemen , consider this , that his majesties council have certainly considered of this evidence , before they brought this to a publick enquiry ; or else it would be a hard thing if they should come raw , and not know what the witnesses can say ; for though you are the jury to hear the witnesses , yet you must consider , that the kings council have examined whether he hath cause to accuse these persons , or not ; and , gentlemen , they understand very well , that it will be no prejudice to the king to have the evidence heard openly in court , or else the king would ne're desire it . foreman . my lord , the gentlemen of the jury desire that it may be recorded , that we insisted upon it as our right ; but if the court o're rule , we must submit to it . l. c. j. here are enough persons to take notice of it ; to make records of such things , is not usual ; it is not our business here to record every thing , that every man will desire to be recorded : we can record nothing but what is in order to the proceedings , but notice enough is taken of it ; you need not fear but that there will be witnesses enough . l. c. j. north. gentlemen , i must say something to fortifie what my lord chief justice has said : if any of us had been of a different opinion , we would have spoken it ; the same thing was stood upon , and discoursed on the last sessions , and then all the judges were of this opinion , and in what all the judges agree to , you should acquiesce . i must tell you from my own experience ; where the king will , he ought to have it kept secret : i have not known it done publi●kly in the orderly course of business ; but i have often known wher●… hath been desir'd by those which prosecute for the king , that evidence hath been given openly ; and i never knew it deny'd : if any of my brothers think otherwise , i desire they would speak ; but , i tell you , as to my experience , this is the case . mr. sheriff p. i desire the witnesses may be kept out of the court , and called one by one . l. c. j. it is a thing certainly , that the king's council will not be afraid of doing ; but sheriffs do not use to move any thing of this nature in court , and therefore 't is not your duty , mr. sheriff , to meddle with it . sheriff p. it was my duty last time , my lord , and appointed . mr. att. gen. you were acquainted 't was not your duty last time , and you appear against the king. then the indictment was read. london ss . the jurors for our soveraign lord the king , upon their oaths present , that anthony earl of shaftsbury , late of the parish of st. martins in the fields , in the county of middlesex , as a false traytor against the most illustrious , and most excellent prince , our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland , king , his natural lord , the fear of god in his heart not having , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance ; but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , and true , due , and natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , towards him our said soveraign lord the king , should , and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing , and with all his strength intending the peace and common tranquillity in this kingdom of england , to disturb , and war and rebellion against our said soveraign lord the king , to stir up and move , and the government of our said soveraign lord the king , within this kingdom of england , to subvert , and him our said soveraign lord the king , from the title , honour and regal name of the imperial crown of his kingdom of england to depose and deprive , and him our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , the th day of march , in the three and thirtieth year of the reign of our soveraign lord , charles the second , now king of england , and divers other days and times , as well before as afterward , in the parish of st. mary le-bow , in the ward of cheap , london , trayterously compassed , imagined , and intended the death and final destruction of our said soveraign lord the king , and the ancient government of his kingdom of england , to change , alter , and wholly to subvert , and him our said soveraign lord the king , from the title , honour , and kingly name of his imperial crown of this kingdom of england to depose and deprive , and war and rebellion against our said soveraign lord the king , to move and levy within this kingdom of england ; and his said most wicked treasons , and trayterous compasses , imaginations and purposes aforesaid , to fulfill and perfect , he the said anthony . earl of shaftsbury , as a false traytor , with divers armed men , subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , then being , maliciously , trayterously and advisedly did provide and prepare to be aiding to him the said earl of shaftsbury , to fulfill and perfect his treasons aforesaid . and his said wicked treasons , trayterous compasses , imaginations and purposes , the sooner to fulfill and perfect , he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury , as a false traytor , with one john booth , and other subjects of our said lord the king , then and there trayterously assembled , met and consulted ; and the same wicked treasons , and trayterous compasses , imaginations and purposes aforesaid , then and there to the said john booth , and other persons , to the jury unknown , in the hearing of divers liege subjects of our soveraign lord the king , then and there present , openly , publickly , maliciously , trayterously and advisedly did say and declare , and to perswade and induce the said john booth to be aiding and assisting in his said treasons , compasses , imaginations and purposes , he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury , as a false traytor , maliciously , advisedly , and trayterously , the said th day of march , in the three and thirtieth year of the reign of our said soveraign lord the king , at the parish and ward aforesaid , within the city of london aforesaid , falsly , advisedly , subtilly , maliciously and trayterously said , asserted and declared , that in a short time the parliament was to sit at oxford , and that he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury had inspected the elections , and considered the inclinations and dispositions of the generality of the members of parliament elected ; and that he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury was satisfied that the parliament would insist upon three matters , ( to wit ) the bill of exclusion against the duke of york ; the abolishing the act of parliament of the th of queen elizabeth , and the passing of a new bill for vniting protestant dissenters ; with divers other good and wholesome bills . to which he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury was certain that the kings majesty would refuse to give his royal assent ; and therefore he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury did expect that there would be a division between the kings majesty and the parliament ; and that many noble lords and worthy members of the lower house did concur in the same opinion ; and they were resolved to insist upon the passing of those bills : and if the kings majesty refused , that they ( meaning him the said anthony earl of shaftsbury , and the said noble lords and worthy members ) had provided strength to compel the kings majesty to grant thereunto : and that for his part , he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury had provided stout men to be commanded by captain wilkinson , ( meaning one henry wilkinson , one of the subjects of our said now soveraign lord the king ) ; of which he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury had agreed that the said john booth should be one . and further , the jurors aforesaid upon their oath do say , that the aforesaid anthony earl of shaftsbury , his said wicked treasons , and trayterous imaginations , to fulfill , perfect , and bring to effect afterwards ; to wit , the said eighteenth day of march , in the thirty-third year of his said now majesties reign , in the parish and ward aforesaid , within the city of london aforesaid , as a false traytor in the presence and hearing of divers liege people of our said soveraign lord the king , then and there present , openly and publickly , falsly , maliciously , advisedly and traiterously said , asserted , published , and with a loud voice declared , that our said now lord the king was a man of no faith , and that there was no trust in him ; and that our said lord the king deserved to be deposed , as well as richard the second , late king of england , deserved . and further , the jurors aforesaid upon their oath do say , that the said anthony earl of shaftsbury , his said wicked treasons , and traiterous imaginations aforesaid , to be fulfilled and perfected , and brought to effect the said th day of march , in the three and thirtieth year of his said now majesty's reign , in the parish and ward aforesaid , in the city of london aforesaid , as a false traytor , in the presence and hearing of divers liege subjects of our said lord the king then and there present , openly and publickly , falsly , maliciously , advisedly , and traiterously said , asserted , published , and with a loud voice declared , that he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury would never desist , until he had brought this kingdom of england into a commonwealth without a king , and that the said anthony earl of shaftsbury , and all those that him the said anthony earl of shaftsbury would assist , ( and he knew many that would assist him the said anthony earl of shaftsbury ) would make england a commonwealth as holland was : and that he the said anthony earl of shaftsbury , and other traytors unknown , would live as in holland , and that he our said lord the king , and all his family , should be rooted out . and further , the jurors aforesaid do say , that the said anthony earl of shaftsbury , his said wicked treasons , and traiterous imaginations aforesaid , to be fulfilled , perfected , and brought to effect afterwards , the said th day of march , in the three and thirtieth year of his said now majesty's reign , in the parish and ward aforesaid , in the city of london aforesaid , as a false traytor , in the presence and hearing of divers liege subjects of our said soveraign lord the king then and there present , openly , publickly , falsly , maliciously , advisedly , and traiterously said , asserted , published , and with a loud voice declared , that our now soveraign lord the king was a man of an unfaithful heart , and not worthy to be trusted , and not fit to rule and govern , being false , unjust , and cruel to his people ; and if he would not be governed by his people , that they ( meaning him the said anthony earl of shaftsbury , and other traytors to the jurors unknown ) our said soveraign lord the king would depose , against his allegiance and duty , and against the peace of our said soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , &c. and against the form of the statute in such case made and provided , &c. sir fr. withens . gentlemen of the jury , this is an indictment against the earl of shaftsbury ; i shall not trouble you to open the indictment , because the evidence will be somewhat long , i shall only tell you which way we shall go — l. c. j. north. i do not know whether you desire the witnesses should be examin'd apart , do you desire that , gentlemen ? l. c. j. if you do desire it , gentlemen , they shall , for mr. sheriff hath nothing to do with it ; but if you do desire it , you shall have the witnesses call'd one at a time , and all the rest shall be put out of the court. jury . my lord , it is our desire . l. c. j. we did deny it to mr. sheriff , because we are to keep men within their duty . here it is not his duty to meddle with any thing of this nature . foreman . my lord , we desire we may have a list of their names , and that they may be put apart , that they may not hear what one another say . sir fr. withens . my lord , there is one part i would open . l. c. j. there is no need for it at all — you shall have their names told you as they are call'd . mr. harrison . my lord , we pray we may have a list of their names . l. c. j. if you desire it , you may have it , but it will be no advantage , for you will hear them named , and you may write them down as they come in . mr. godfrey . we desire a list , for you told us , the king's council had examin'd them , and knew who they were . l. c. j. i 'le tell you , the court is to have their names indorsed , for they don't bring witnesses in hugger-mugger , and i suppose they are indorsed here . l. c. j. north. it is want of experience that makes you ask this ; you are told , they are indorsed here . l. c. j. look you , sir samuel barnardiston , you must have the indictment it self out with you , and all their names written upon the back of that indictment ; but that you should desire to have the names of them in a roll beforehand , i do not know , if there be any reason that you can assign for it . foreman . one thing more i have to say , that we may see the warrant by which the earl of shaftsbury was committed , for there are some other questions depend upon it . l. c. j. that we cannot do , for the lieutenant of the tower hath that warrant , which he keeps for his indemnity ; we cannot demand it from him upon any terms : any thing that you do desire of us , let us know ; what is reasonable , and within our power , we will grant ; and for other desires of yours , we tell the reason why we cannot grant them . mr. papillon . my lord , if your lordship pleases , i will only acquaint your lordship , that the gentlemen of the jury do seem to be of opinion , that your lordship gives them leave to examine the witnesses ; and the jury , because they would not put the court to too much trouble , do desire , that the witnesses should come one after another , and make their information , and then the jury would withdraw , to consider what proper questions to ask them , and come down again . l. c. j. you shall do so , gentlemen . look you , we did at the request of the last jury use the same method ; after they had heard the witnesses what they gave in evidence , they came and desired leave to ask them some questions , which was granted , and they were call'd one by one , and they did examine them ; you shall do so , gentlemen . mr. att. gen. i was informed this morning there were several questions to be askt of the several witnesses to direct the grand-jury how to demean themselves . l. c. j. mr. attorney , the request is reasonable enough . mr. harrison . we desire they may be examined one by one . l. c. j. north. i suppose you don't stand upon it for these witnesses , they are clerks of the council , that only prove a paper which it seems was found in the earl of shaftsbury's house : if you will they may go out and be call'd in again . harrison . we humbly beg it . mr. godfrey . i was foreman of the jury at fitz-harris's tryal , and it was complained he had hard measure from some irish witnesses , and that it was severe that they should be examin'd in troops : it hath troubled me since that i did not put them out and examine them apart . l. c. j. look ye , gentlemen , you that are witnesses for the king , you must go all out , and come in as you are called , one by one . which done william blathwait esq was produced , and a paper delivered in . mr. sanders to mr. blathwait . i pray sir , give an account how you came by that paper . w. blathwait . this paper gentlemen was put into my custody by mr. gwyn , clerk of the council , who seiz'd it among others in my lord shaftsbury's house : he gave me the key of the room where they were kept , and it hath been altogether in my custody , except for a short time that it was delivered to mr. secretary jenkins , by whom it was re-delivered to me . mr. gwyn having seiz'd papers at my lod shaftsbury's house brought them to the council-office , and put them into one of the rooms , and lock'd the door , and deliver'd the key to me . when i was order'd by the committee of examinations , i fetch'd up the trunks and papers , and brought them into the council-chamber , and the trunks were opened in the presence of some of the lords of the council , and in the presence of mr. wilson , who was appointed to attend there on the behalf of my lord of shaftsbury , and he was always present when the papers were taken out of the trunks and bags : this was one paper , and was taken out upon the th . of july in the presence of mr. wilson , who took particular notice of this paper , as may appear by his own hand . the trunk was sealed , it was a great trunk , and it was open'd in the presence of mr. samuel wilson and mr. starkey , who were both appointed by my lord of shaftsbury . l. c. j. was this paper found in one of those trunks or boxes that was deliver'd to you by mr. gwyn ? mr. blathwait . this paper was taken out of a velvet bag which mr. gwyn had put into the great trunk , which trunk was sealed and opened in the presence of mr. wilson and mr. starkey . sir fr. withins . did you find that paper in the trunk ? blaithwait . i took this and others out of the velvet bag which was in the great trunk . l. c. j. call mr. gwyn to give an account where he found these papers . look you gentlemen of the jury , you hear what his evidence is , would you ask him any thing while he is here ? then mr. gwyn coming in , l. c. j. where had you the trunk you delivered to mr. blaithwait ? gwyn . my lord , on the second of july by a warrant from the secretary i was commanded to go to my lord shaftsbury's house to search his papers , i did there meet with a great many papers , and i took a note how i had parted them , and into what parcels i had put the papers ; there were several sorts of them in a great hair trunk , and there was a velvet bag in which i put some papers that were loose in my lords closet above stairs . my lord shaftsbury as soon as i came , gave me the keys , and told me where his closets were , and said he would seal them up with his own seal : i staid for it , but he sent me word by a gentleman that i might put my own seal if i pleased : i did put my seal upon the trunk , but afterwards being sent another way , i delivered it to this gentleman mr. blaithwait : whether any of the papers were taken out afterwards i cannot tell . l. c. j. mr. gwyn , that your evidence may be the better understood , tell me , were all the papers that were in that velvet bag in my lord shaftsbury's closet ? mr. gwyn . in my lord shaftsbury's closet above-stairs . l. c. j. this you swear ; when you delivered it to mr. blaithwait , all the papers were in that bag ; was there nothing in that bag , but what you took in my lord shafsbury's closet ? gwyn . nothing , my lord. l. c. j. look you gentlemen , you do observe that this paper was put into the bag by mr. gwyn , and mr. blaithwait swears he found it in the bag , and delivered it to mr. secretary jenkins ; therefore if you please mr. secretary jenkins you shall be sworn whether that paper was delivered to you by mr. blaithwait , because we would clear it as we go , whether that be the paper was delivered to mr. secretary jenkins by mr. blaithwait : i pray sir , was that the paper that mr. blathwait did deliver into your hands ? mr. sec. jenkins . my lord this is the paper , this paper was delivered into my hands by mr. blathwait in the council-chamber . i cannot say that this numerical paper was taken out of the velvet bag ; but there were a great many papers taken out of it , and i having the honor to be at the examination of the papers ; this was ordered to be put ( and was put ) into my hands with nine papers more . l. c. j. was it out of your hands ? mr. sec. jenkins . it was out of my hands ; for upon monday last i took out the nine papers intrusted with me , and this tenth out of my desk , and caused my servant to mark them by numbers . then i sealed up these papers and sent them to mr. graham , mr. graham brought them back again to me without any alteration whatsoever ; then i put this tenth paper into the hands of mr. blathwait again . all the while it was in my hands , it was under lock and key , and none of my servants saw it , but the time it was numbred ; and no manner of alteration was made in this , or any other of the nine papers . lord chief-justice . now it appears this was the paper taken in my lord shaftsbury's closet . then this paper was read as followeth . we the knights , &c. finding to the grief of our hearts , the popish priests and jesuits , with the papists and their adherents and abettors have for several years last past pursued a most pernicious and hellish plot , to root out the true protestant religion as a pestilent heresie , to take away the life of our gracious king , to subvert our laws and liberties , and to set up arbitrary power and popery . and it ▪ being notorious that they have been highly encouraged by the countenance and protection given and procured for them by j. d. of y. and by their expectations of his succeeding to the crown , and that through crafty popish councils his designs have so far prevailed , that he hath created many and great dependents upon him by his bestowing offices and preferments both in church and state. it appearing also to us , that by his influence mercenary forces have been levied and kept on foot for his secret designs contrary to our laws ; the officers thereof having been named and appointed by him , to the apparent hazard of his majesties person , our religion and government , if the danger had not been timely foreseen by several parliaments , and part of those forces with great difficulty , caused by them to be disbanded at the kingdoms great expence : and it being evident , that notwithstanding all the continual endeavours of the parliament to deliver his majesty from the councils , and out of the power of the said d. yet his interest in the ministry of state and others have been so prevalent , that parliaments have been unreasonably prorogued and dissolved when they have been in hot pursuit of the popish conspiracies , and ill ministers of state their assistants . and that the said d. in order to reduce all into his own power hath procured the garrisons , the army and ammunition , and all the power of the seas and soldiery , and lands belonging to these three kingdoms to be put into the hands of his party and their adherents , even in opposition to the advice and order of the last parliament . and as we considering with heavy hearts how greatly the strength , reputation and treasure of the kingdom both at sea and land is wasted and consumed , and lost by the intricate expensive management of these wicked destructive designs ; and finding the same councils after exemplary justice upon some of the conspirators , to be still pursued with the utmost devilish malice , and desire of revenge ; whereby his majesty is in continual hazard of being murdered to make way for the said d.'s advancement to the crown , and the whole kingdom in such case is destitute of all security of their religion , laws , estates , and liberty , sad experience in the case , queen mary having proved the wisest laws to be of little force to keep out popery and tyranny under a popish prince . we have ▪ therefore endeavoured in a parliamentary way by a bill for the purpose to bar and exclude the said duke from the succession to the crown , and to banish him for ever out of these kingdoms of england and ireland . but the first means of the king and kingdoms safety being utterly rejected , and we left almost in despair of obtaining any real and effectual security , and knowing our selves to be intrusted to advise and act for the preservation of his majesty and the kingdom , and being persuaded in our consciences that the dangers aforesaid are so eminent and pressing , that there ought to be no delay of the best means that are in our power to secure the kingdom against them . we have thought fit to propose to all true protestants an vnion amongst themselves by solemn aad sacred promise of mutual defence and assistance in the preservation of the true protestant religion , his majesties person and royal state and our laws , liberties and properties , and we hold it our bounden duty to joyn our selves for the same intent in a declaration of our vnited affections and resolutions in the form insuing . i a. b. do in the presence of god solemnly promise , uow , and protest to maintain and defend to the utmost of my power , with my person and estate , the true protestant religion , against popery and all popish superstition , idolatry , or innovation , and all those who do or shall endeavour to spread or advance it within this kingdom . i will also , as far as in me lies , maintain and defend his majesties royal person and estate ; as also the power and priviledg of parliaments , the lawful rights and liberties of the subject against all incroachments and usurpation of arbitrary power whatsoever , and endeavour entirely to disband all such mercenary forces as we have reason to believe were raised to advance it ; and are still kept up in and about the city of london , to the great amazement and terror of all the good people of the land. moreover j. d. of y. having publickly professed and owned the popish religion , and notoriously given life and birth to the damnable and hellish plots of the papists against his majesties person , the protestant religion , and the government of this kingdom ; i will never consent that the said j. d. of y. or any other , who is or hath been a papist , or any ways adher'd to the papists in their wicked designs , be admitted to the succession of the crown of england ; but by all lawful means and by force of arms , if need so require , according to my abilities , will oppose him , and endeavour to subdue , expel and destroy him , if he come into england , or the dominions thereof , and seek by force to set up his pretended title , and all such as shall adhere unto him , or raise any war , tumult , or sedition for him , or by his command , as publick enemies of our laws , religion and country . to this end we and every one of us whose hands are here under-written , do most willingly bind our selves and every one of us unto the other joyntly and severally , in the bond of one firm and loyal society or association , and do promise and vow before god , that with our joynt and particular forces we will oppose and pursue unto destruction all such as upon any title whatsoever shall oppose the just and righteous ends of this association , and maintain , protect and defend all such as shall enter into it in the just performance of the true intent and meaning of it . and left this just and pious work should be any ways obstructed or hindered for want of discipline and conduct , or any evil minded persons under pretence of raising forces for the service of this association , should attempt or commit disorders ; we will follow such orders as we shall from time to time receive from this present parliament , whilst it shall be sitting , or the major part of the members of both houses subscribing this association , when it shall be prorogued or dissolved : and obey such officers as shall by them be set over us in the several countreys , cities , and burroughs , until the next meeting of this or another parliament ; and will then shew the same obedience and submission unto it , and those who shall be of it . neither will we for any respect of persons or causes , or for fear , or reward separate our selves from this association , or fail in the prosecution thereof during our lives , upon pain of being by the rest of us prosecuted , and suppressed as perjur'd persons , and publick enemies to god , the king , and our native countrey . to which pains and punishments we do voluntarily submit our selves , and everyone of us without benefit of any colour or pretence to excuse us . in witness of all which premisses to be inviolably kept , we do to this present writing put our hands and seals , and shall be most ready to accept and admit any others hereafter into this society and association . sir fr. withins . this paper is very plausibly penned in the beginning , and goes a great way so , but in the last clause but one , there they come to perfect levying of war ; for they do positively say , they will obey such officers as either the parliament or the major part of them , or after the parliament is dissolved , the major part of those that shall subscribe this paper shall appoint ; they will obey all such officers . foreman . pray what date is this paper of ? sir fr. withins . it was after the bill for the exclusion of the duke of york , for it says that way failing , they would do it by force . foreman . there is no hand to it at all ? sir fr. withins . no , none at all . one thing i had forgot , that they would joyn to destroy the mercenary forces about london , which is down-right levying of war against the king and his guards . mr. sanders . the design of it is pretended to oppose popery and arbitrary power , and destroy the papists ; but that doth not seem so much in its self : but when you have heard the evidence you will hear who were the papists that were to be destroyed by this army . john booth . jury . he has stood in the face of the court all this while . l. c. j. when did mr. booth come down ? jury . he was here before we went up , my lord , and hath been here ever since . l. c. j. look ye , gentlemen , they tell you he was carried away , and came down but now . mr. booth . no my lord , i came down but now . mr. shepherd . my lord , we desire a list of their names , that we might know who is here , and who is not . mr. godfrey . this man hath been here all this while , and all the others may be here , for ought that i know . sir. fr. withins . in the first place give an account what discourse you have had with my lord shaftsbury . l. c. j. speak out that the jury may hear you . booth . i will speak as loud as i can . in the month of january , about the middle of january last , i was introduc'd into my lord shaftsbury's acquaintance by one captain henry wilkinson . i say i was introduc'd into my lord shaftsbury's acquaintance by one captain henry wilkinson . this captain wilkinson is a yorkshire gentleman , he has known me above twenty years , and he and i have had familiar conversation a long while ; so waiting upon my lord shaftsbury , our first business that we went about was , captain wilkinson did pretend to receive a commission from my lord shaftsbury , and some others of the lords proprietors of the palatinate of carolina to be their deputy-governor ; and he told me the prospect of that journey was like to be very hopeful , and that his interest was good , and that he could procure me a commission , and such a number of acres for quality and quantity as i did desire : and he said he did not design to go over immediately in his own person , but he would send his eldest son , and his youngest son , and if he went , he would return again as occasion should serve . i consented to him in all this , and we discours'd it divers times together , and we went to my lord shaftsbury on purpose to receive commissions in order to this purpose . the first time i went there was the earl of craven , peter colbert , one archdell a quaker ; i thought him a quaker because he kept his hat on , when the rest of the lords stood bare in civility to him . we discours'd the thing about carolina . after this , and before , captain wilkinson and i had several discourses about the juncture of affairs in these times , tho i knew him to be an old royallist , and one that served his majesty and his late father very much in the wars ; yet being under great disappointments of preferments at court , and missing the reward he expected from the king , his heart was turned another way , and he had repented himself of those services he had done for the king , and was become a man of another opinion ; and there was some inducements upon me that i was inclin'd to the same opinion : so he express'd himself to my lord , and so from one thing to another we went on in discourse , and related the several parliaments , and the proroguing them , and the disappointments of the people , and the fear of popery and arbitrary power : and this was not done once , nor twice , nor ten times ; for i cannot enumerate them , for we kept a continual club , and convers'd together familiarly near three quarters of a year . after this first acquaintance with my lord shaftsbury at his house , i did frequently go with captain wilkinson , and between christmass and march four or five times : and i observed this , that when we came to my lord shaftsbury's they were cautious in our accession : in the first place it was to be known by some of the servants , who he was in company with : and in the second place the names were sent up , who they were , that were to speak with him : sometimes we had an alehouse at the bell in the same street : ( i forget the name of the street ) we staid at the alehouse till we had a sit time , captain wilkinson had acquaintance with his porter and his gentleman of his chamber : and so we often discours'd . and from the concerns of carolina we fell to matters more publick concerning the state. i remember he would use to inveigh sharply against the times , and look upon himself as not so valued , nor so respected , nor in those places and dignities as he expected he should be , and seem'd to be discontented , and he did fear that popery would be introduced , and arbitrary power : and when parliament-men were to be elected , there came every week news , bringing particulars of such boroughs and counties as had made particular elections for members for parliament ; whether knights , citizens , or burgesses : and he would often consider that parliament that was to sit at oxford , what they were as to their inclinations and dispositions : and he said , they would iusist upon the same things the other parliaments before had done . particularly he said the parliament would never grant the king any assistance of money , nor satisfie him in those things that he desired , unless he gave the people first satisfaction in those things that they insisted on before , and he believed would insist upon after ; and particularly the bill of excluding the duke of york from the crown : another was the abolishing the statute of the th . of elizabeth : and the third was giving his royal assent for the passing a new bill whereby all dissenting protestants , nonconformists , or what you will term them , should be freed from those penalties and ecclesiastick punishments that they are subject to by the present establisht law : and he said , if these and some other wholesome laws and bills were past by the royal assent of the king , he believed that when the people had received this security and satisfaction , that they would be very willing to grant the king such accommodations of money by way of assessment , or so , as his necessary occasions should also require : but without this he believed , there would be a breach between the king and the parliament , and that they had order'd the parliament should meet at oxford , and not at this metropolis at london , where they might go on without fear of being over-awed : that this was an intention to awe the parliament . but he said , himself and divers noble lords , and members of the house of commons had considered themselves and their own safety , and that they judg'd it dangerous to go to oxford , where they were sure the guards , the retinue of the court , and the assistance of the scholars ( which usually incline to the crown ) might so over-awe the parliament , that they might not so freely proceed in a way for the publick good as they intended ; and therefore he and others had consider'd with themselves , that it were fit for them to have guards and send them thither ; and to this purpose he had establisht a matter of fifty men , persons of quality , that he believed would have men along with them ; and he intrusted captain henry wilkinson with the command of these men , and they were to come to oxford at such a time , and if there were any breach between the king and the parliament , or any violence offer'd to any of these members by the guards , or retinue of the court , that then these men with others that other lords had provided , should repel his force , by greater force , and should purge the guards of all the papists and tories , and such as were against the protestant religion , and the establisht laws of the land ; and likewise these men should be ready to assist himself , and those other persons in his confederacy , to purge from the king those evil counsellors which were about him : particularly there were named , the earl of worcester , my lord clarendon , my lord hallifax , my lord feversham , and mr. hide , now lord viscount hide ; and these persons were look'd upon to be dangerous , and gave the king evil advice , and made him continue so very deaf to what the parliament urg'd him to ; and therefore they said they would not only purge the guards , and repel that force by a greater force , but also take those lords by violence from the king , and bring the king to london , to the chief metropolitan city , where those things should be establisht , which they design'd for their safety in these two respects , for the preserving the protestant religion , and likewise for the keeping and defending us safe from arbitrary power and government . upon this captain wilkinson did desire me that i would be one of those under his command : this i did consent to . and he requested me further , that i would provide for my self horse and arms ; and likewise arms for my man , and he would provide me a horse for my man. i did accordingly provide arms for my self , and a good stone-horse for my self , and arms for my man before the parliament did sit at oxford . i think the d . of march , i do not punctually remember the day , and when the parliament was set , we enquir'd and heard how things went on , and found that it was as my lord shaftsbury had predicted , that the parliament did insist upon those very things that he told they would do , but never believ'd or imagin'd they would be so soon dissolv'd . upon thursday before the parliament was dissolv'd , captain wilkinson told me he expected that very week to have a summons to go up to oxford with those men that were listed with him ; but then saturdays news came of the dissolution of the parliament , and therefore it took no further effect . the whole matter , the main design was this , that my lord shaftsbury should have so many men to attend him there for the security of his person , and likewise to repel the force of the kings guards , or any other persons that followed the king ; and also to remove from him those five lords and bring the king back to london , to establish those laws that i have mention'd . sir francis withins . pray what time did you discover this ? booth . about six weeks ago . sir francis withins . had you any discourse with the earl of shaftsbury after captain wilkinson spoke with you , or before the sitting of the parliament . booth . i said before that the first motion of these fifty men that were to be my lord shaftsbury's guard came from captain wilkinson ; but after this when i went with captain wilkinson to my lord shaftsbury , the same thing was discoursed there . the last time i was with my lord shaftsbury was about a week before he went to oxford , about ten days before the parliament set , or a week , and then i heard the same discourse from my lord shaftsbury's own mouth . sir fr. withins . had you any other discourse with my lord shaftsbury ? booth . i say i made three or four visits between christmass and march , and we had discourse every time particularly about the kings person , and if the king did refuse these motions , that then these men were to be taken from him , and he repell'd with a greater force , and be brought to it by force . sir fr. withins . did you ever make any solicitation to any to make this discovery ? booth . thus far i did , and i will tell you the whole matter in that point ; there was one walter banes an acquaintance of mine , and i found that he had at wilkinson's request engaged himself in some business that one brownrig an attorney in yorkshire had writ to him about , concerning some men that were to swear against my lord shaftsbury . i asked mr. banes what men these were , he said , he thought they were irish-men . i said , i don't know what conversation in that nature my lord shaftsbury might have with irish-men , for i know none of them ; but i am satisfied that he had conversation tending to these ends that you speak of with some english-men , and that i know . this mr. banes did take particular notice of , and he was very frequently upon me to tell him what the matter was , and i gave him some intimation of it . truly 't was very much upon my spirit , and i could not tell whether i was able to carry it through or not , or had better to let it alone as it was in silence : but discoursing still more with him , and at the result of that discourse we had by degrees , i did give him some intimation of it . and after that upon second thoughts i took a resolution to discover it : and when i did discover it , i do here in the presence of god declare , that no mortal did know any thing of what i had to say , in reference to the king ; nor did i make any more applications in the world , but took pen , ink , and paper , and writ it down , and sealed it under a cover and sent it to the council . sir fr. withins . gentlemen of the jury , would you ask him any questions ? mr. papillon . the jury told your lordship before , that after all had been examin'd they would consider what questions . l. c. j. where would you have these witnesses that have been examined to stand ? mr. papillon . we leave it to the sheriffs to appoint a place for them . lord chief justice . to keep them apart it 's utterly impossible , for we must have as many rooms then as there are witnesses . jury . let one man keep with them . l. c. j. empty that place where they were the last time , and let them stand there . edward turberville . sir francis withins . mr. turberville , have you had any discourse with my lord shaftsbury ? turberville . yes several times . in february last , i am not positive in the time , but about the beginning of the month , i waited upon my lord shaftsbury , about some moneys . i waited upon him to have his advice how i might come by 't , and to gain my lord shaftsbury's letter in my behalf to the president of the council to stand my friend ; and he said there was little good to be had from the king , as long as his guards were about him ; for were it not for his guards , we would quickly go down to whitehal and obtain what terms we thought fit . said i , my lord , i suppose his guards can't defend him from the whole kingdom . his lordship said , that the rabble were all of that side , especially the people about wapping , and aldersgate-street ; and the rich men of the city would vote for elections ; but they could not expect they should stand by them in case there should be any disturbance , for they valued their riches more than their cause . and at oxford i heard my lord say again , he wonder'd the people of england should stickle so much about religion , and that if he were to choose a religion , he would have one that should comply with what was apt to carry on their cause . mr. sanders . had you any other discourse with him at any other time ? master turberville . i told you all that is material that i can say to it . john smith . mr. smith . my lord , i only beg a word or two from your lordship of some reflections cast upon me . l. c. j. go to your evidence . mr. smith . my lord , this is something to my evidence . l. c. j. you may take another time for that . mr. smith . my lord , it hath been reported about in coffee-houses and taverns , that i should swear there was a general design against his majesty ; and that i swore it before the king and secretary of state ; and that i also swore it at the tryal of mr. college and mr. rowse : i take it upon my oath i never swore any such thing , neither can i swear there was a general design by the city , or the parliament against the king. lord chief justice . speak what discourse you have had with my lord shaftsbury . mr. smith . my lord , i suppose it is past all doubt , that i have been very often with my lord shaftsbury ; and i have often in his discourse observed that he spake very irreverently and slightly of the king ; sometimes saying he was a weak man , and sometimes saying he was an inconstant man ; a man of no firm or settled resolution ; and a man that was easily led by the nose , as his father was before him , by a popish queen , which was the ruine of his father : this was both in publick and in private . i have also observed sometimes in his discourse , something that he mention'd of the earl of essex ; and that the king should declare , that the earl of shaftsbury was not satisfied to be an ill man himself , but got over the earl of essex too : this the earl of shaftsbury declar'd publickly in his own house . another story was of the rebellion of scotland , that the king should say that the earl of shaftsbury was the chief promoter of that rebellion ; and when this was told my lord shaftsbury , that he should send word back again to the king , i am glad ( says he ) that the king sees not his own danger , nor what he runs himself into : and pray tell him , that , if i were to raise a rebellion , i could raise anotherguess rebellion than the rebellion was in scotland . but now as to the particular points i am to charge him with , i remember my lord , that my lord shaftsbury sent for me one time , and that by one manly ; sometimes they call him major manly , sometimes captain manly ; and this man found me at mr. bethel's club in newgate-street at the queens arms ; and there he told me my lord shaftsbury would speak with me that night . i immediately left the club , and went to my lord shaftsbury's ; and i was introduc'd into the dining room , where there were two gentlemen in discourse with my lord ; and as soon as he saw me , he askt me how i did : i told him i was very well , and came in obedience to his lordships command to wait upon him ; for major manly told me your lordship had a mind to speak with me : he said he had . soon afterward , these two gentlemen went away . upon this my lord turns about , mr. smith , said he , mr. hetherington was with me this morning , and told me he was afraid that the irish witnesses would go over to the court party , and retract what they had said formerly . my lord , says i , i know no person can better and with more ease , hinder that than your lordship , by procuring some small allowance for them ; for they complain much of poverty . says he , master hetherington has the charge of them , and hath a special care of them , and i believe they don't want . my lord , says i , i know nothing of that , he knows what provision he hath made for them . this is the thing , said my lord , that i would have you do , they stand in great awe of you , and you must persuade them from going nigh that rogue fitz-gerrald , that great villain , that is pamper'd up , and maintain'd by the king and the court party , to stifle the plot in ireland . my lord , says 〈◊〉 do you think the king would be at such vast charges for to bring over witnesses , and at last maintain men to stifle this plot , for that is the way to stifle the plot in england too , as well as that . sayes he , what is this frequent dissolutions and prorogations of parliaments for , but to stifle the plot here , and to hinder the lords in the tower to come to a tryal ? this is a strange thing my lord , said i , when he gave dr. oats , mr. bedlow and mr. dugdale such large allowances to prosecute this plot. sayes my lord , that is nothing , that may hold for a year or two , he may take it off when he will , but the chief means are put by whereby we might find out the depth of this plot , and if mr. dugdale and dr. oates be knock't on the head , then where is this plot ? then there will come an act of oblivion for them , and all things will be well as they were before . my lord , said i , this is very strange to me . i can give you instance of it , sayes he , when i was lately in the tower , i told some i saw popery coming in , and that it was hard to prevent it . i am sorry to hear it , said i , but what would you have me do with these irish witnesses ? say's he , perswade them not to go near white-hall , nor this fitzgerrald . and , said he , one thing more , i would have you mind , mr. smith , that if the king were not as well satisfied with the coming in of popery as ever the d. of york was , do you think the d. of york would be so much concern'd in the bringing in of popery as he is ? i am sorry for it , my lord if it be so , after this i parted with my lord shaftsbury , with full instructions from him to those irish witnesses . i met mr. hetherington the next morning , and i told him that i was with my lord shaftsbury : sayes he , i know your business and would have you meet us at the sun tavern in the afternoon . my lord , i went according to the time appointed , and met him at the sun tavern between , or , or of the clock , as near as i can remember . when i came to them i began to open those great and horrid crimes that i heard mr. fitzgerrald accused of , that he was a man came to discover a plot , and disowned it here , and retracted all he had said . i told them what a crime this was . in short , my lord , they promised never to go near the man. i parted that night and came to my lodging , and the next morning mr. hetherington and one mr. bernard dennis came to my lodging and told me , that this bernard dennis , was ready to give in information against fitzgerrald , that he had tamper'd with him to forswear all he had sworn before . i went presently with mr. hetherington and mr. dennis to my lord major , who was then sir patience ward ; after we had told the business to sir patience ward , sir patience ask't this dennis if there were any other persons present . yes , sayes he , there was . sayes sir patience , you are upon your oath , if you know not the nature of an oath , i will tell you . the information was drawn up ; the copy of this information i carry'd to my lord shaftsbury and shew'd it him , he read it , and was very well pleas'd with it , and said , mr. smith , don't you see the villany of that man and that factious party , and that the king runs the same steps as his father did before him , how can any thing of this nature be done without the king and the court pamper'd him up ? my lord , said i , i think now the thing is clear . i , sayes he , these are the very same steps that his father followed when he was led by his popish queen , and the poor man doth not see his danger . i parted from my lord , and came , and gave an account of this very discourse to the club in newgatestreet , and they were glad of it , and i told what my lord shaftsbury said , that the king would never be quiet till he came to his fathers end , he follow'd the same steps . another thing that i have observ'd particularly before the parliament went to oxford , i went to see him , and wee fell into some discourse , and my lord said there was great preparations made , and a great many gather'd together upon the road between london and oxford . my lord , said i , what is the meaning of that ? any body may see , say's he , that is only to terrifie the parliament to comply with the king's desire , which i am sure the parliament never will , for we are as resolute now as ever ; and more resolute , for we see clearly what the king aims at , and that is to bring in popery . which i told several years ago , and when i was last in the tower ; but , sayes he , we have this advantage of him , if he offer any violence to us , ( for we expect it , ) that we have the nation for us , and we may lawfully oppose him , and he will meet with a very strong opposition ; for all that come out of the countrey , shall be well hors'd and well arm'd , and so we shall be all , and here is the city which now has a question in debate among them , whether they shall bear the charge of their own members or no , but they are willing to do it , and send so many men to wait on them , and if we oppose the king , as we may do , for it hath been done in former times , the whole nation is to stand by us , and as i said when i was in the tower , i would dye , before i would ever bring in popery or any thing of that nature . jury . repeat that again . smith . he said ▪ that the king , if he offer'd any violence at oxford to the parliament , he would meet with a strong opposition , and that the gentlemen that came out of the country were well provided with horse , arms , and men , to oppose him , and that they might lawfully do it if the king offered any violence to them whilst they sat , and that the nation stood by them , and that they did represent the nation ▪ and that for his part he and all his friends would do it to the utmost of their power , and , as old as he was , he would be one that would oppose it to his power . my lord , said i , we can expect nothing but confusion , from this parliament in this nature , for then we shall be involved in another civil-war , nothing else can put an end to our miseries , or make this nation a settled nation , but a civil-war . then my lord said i , by this means wee shall make an end of monarchy , or else inslave the nation to popery for ever . no doubt of one say's he , but we are sure of one ▪ for the nation is of our side , and the city you know how they are , and where ever they strike , i am sure the nation will , and this i 'le stand and dye by . this is the substance of what i have to say against my lord shaftsbury , and upon the oath i have taken , i am sure i have not added a word . one word more i have to say , 't is reported i have been hired and suborn'd , i do admire why this city of london , where there are as worthy men , and as great lovers of the king and government as any in the world , should say any such thing ; i was never suborn'd by them , nor never took a farthing of their money , nor never took a farthing of the king in my life . l. c. j. who supposes it ? mr. smith . 't is in print , my lord , 't was in the book that came out last night , it is suppos'd , my lord , for it is in print . l. c. j. i had reason to expect that there was no such objection . brian haines . mr. sanders . give your knowledge of what discourse you have heard concerning my lord shaftsbury . mr. haines . sir , i have heard him villifie the king very often , and he told me about the narrative that i made about sir edmond-bury godfrey's death , mr. ivey and i went to him one day and he spoke to me of it , and i desired him not to expose my person to the king's anger , for i was sure he would never grant a pardon to any man that impeached the earl of danby . say's he , do not fear , if he doth not grant you a pardon , he makes himself the author of the plot ; and ▪ say's he , the earl of essex ; my lord maxfield and i , wee do all resolve if you put in writing , we will go to the king , and beg a pardon of his majesty for you , and if he doth not grant it , we will raise the whole kingdom against him ; for , say's he , he must not expect to live peaceably in his throne , if he doth not grant it . for he makes himself author of the plot. my lord , said i , he hath dissolved so many parliaments for the sake of the earl of danby , and prorogued so many parliaments , therefore he will never grant me this pardon . say's he , doe not fear , 't is the best pretence we can have in the world , and if you will but put in writing , and let me read it , that i may give my opinion of it , the work is done ; and if he doth not do it , we are prepar'd to raise arms against him . i was with him another time after i made this narrative , and he told me the two mr. godfrey's were with the king at windsor , and begged a pardon of his majesty for me , but the king would not grant it , but if he be an honest man , let him lye at my mercy , let him come in and declare what he knows . said i , i would not have your lordship expose my cause in these day's . this is the best time for it in the world , say's he , if he doth not do it , he can't expect to be long king of england . pray my lord said i , what shall i do in the mean time ? i will go beyond ▪ sea , said i. no , sayes he , don't leave the kingdom , he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you . i desir'd him a second time not to expose me to the king's fury , and i prayed him to help me to a little money to go beyond sea , for i was sure i could not be safe in england . sayes he , have a care of your self ; but , sayes he , he dares as well be hang'd as meddle with you . then i was in close conference with him one day , and i gave him so exact an account of all transactions from king charles the first 's reign , the commencement or coming to the crown to this very day , that he was mightily satisfied , finding by me that i was a traveller , he was mightily pleased , and free with me . pray my lord , what model do you take , or intend to do ? sayes he , do you not think but there are families in england , that have as great pretences to the crown as the king ? sayes he , there is the duke of bucks in the right of his mother , she was descended from edward , one of the edwards , and in her right he claimes the barony of ross , he hath as great a right to the crown of england , as ever any stewart of them all . jury . speak that again . mr. haines . i was in conference with my lord shaftsbury one day , and i gave him an exact account of all transactions , and i asked what they did intend to do with the government , if they pull'd the king down . sayes he , do you think there are no families in england , that have as much pretence to the crown as any of the stewarts ? i know none my lord , sayes he , there is the duke of bucks that is descended of the family of the plantagenets ; he named some of the edwards , and in her right he should have the barony of ross , and in her right he has as good a title to the crown of england as ever any stewart had . john macnamarra sworn . sir francis withins . pray give an account to the jury of what discourse you have had with my lord shaftsbury . john macnamarra . my lord , i was with my lord shaftsbury a little before he went to oxford , before the parliament sat there , and my lord told me at that time , that he would take care , together with those that were with him at oxford , for the witnesses that were concerned in the popish plot. mr. harrison . speak out pray sir. john macnamarra . my lord told me he would take care , with those that were with him , for the witnesses that were concern'd in the popish plot ; after my lord went to oxford , i writ him a letter , giving his lordship to understand , that whereas his lordship was pleased to promise , that he would take care of the witnesses , that he would be pleased to take care of me , as well as the rest of the witnesses ; after my lord came home from oxford , i went to him , to see what was done . his lordship was pleased to express himself and say , that the king was popishly affected and did adhere to popery , and that he took the same methods that his father before him took , which brought his father's head to the block , and we will also bring his thither ; and told me also , that he told some persons of quality that this would fall out five years before ; at the same time my lord told me , that there was a collection of money made , and that the meeting was at the sun tavern , and that there came a tory lord in to hinder their proceedings , but sayes he , we do remove to iron-monger-lane , and sayes he , you shall hear further in a fortnight . i came to my lord a fortnight afterwards , and his lordship was pleased to tell me , that there was provision made for the witnesses , and that it was in the hand of one mr. rowse that was servant to sir thomas player ; there was one mr. ivey , and i think my brother was by too , when his lordship spake these words ; he said that the king was a faithlessman , that there was no credit to be given to him , and that the dutchess of mazarine was his cabinet council , who was the worst of woman-kind . this is all that i have to say , my lord. sir francis withins . do you remember nothing at any other time ? john macnamarra . no. sir francis withins . did you hear any thing about deposing the king ? john macnamarra . yes , he did at the same time say , the king deserved to be deposed as much as ever king richard the second did . dennis macnamarra . mr. sanders . tell these gentlemen whether you have had any discourse with the earl of shaftsbury . dennis macnamarra . he said , my lord , that the king was a man that ought not to be believed , and there was no belief in him , and that he ought to be deposed as well as king richard the second , and that the dutchess of mazarine was one of his cabinet council , and that he did nothing but by her advice . sir francis withins . begin again . l. c. j. raise your voice a little , for the jury don't hear you . dennis macnamarra . that the king is a man that ought not to be believed , that there was no belief in him , and that he ought to be deposed as well as king richard the d . and that the dutchess of mazarine was his cabinet council , and that he did nothing but by her consent . l. c. j. who was with you at that time ? dennis macnamarra . there was mr. ivey , and my brother at his own house . l. c. j. when was this ? dennis macnamarra . 't was at the latter end of march or the beginning of april . sir francis withins . you say mr. ivey was by at the same time ? dennis macnamarra . yes . sir francis withins . call mr. ivey . jury . what place was it in ? d. macnamarra . in his own house . edward ivey sworn . mr. ivey . my lord , soon after the parliament was dissolv'd at oxford , i was at my lord shaftsbury's house , where he was speaking against the king , and said , that he was an unjust man , and unfit to reign , and that he was a papist in his heart , and would introduce popery . jury . say that again . mr. ivey . i tell you i was at my lord shaftsbury's house , where he was then speaking against the king , saying that he was altogether unjust and not fit to reign , and he wonder'd he did not take example by his father before him . and did really believe that he was a papist in his heart , and intended to introduce popery . i was sometime after with him and i told him one haines had told me he had something to discover about the death of sir edmond-bury godfrey and several other things , and my lord desired to see him , and i brought mr. haines to his house , and he desired him that what he had to say he would put in writing , and he should have a pardon , and that if the king did deny it , as he dares not deny it , but if he does , we will rise upon him and force him ? sir francis withins . had you any other discourse , at other times ? mr ivey . yes , i had other discourse but not to this purpose . sir francis withins . was you frequently with him ? mr. ivey , i was frequently with him ; he desir'd at the time i was with him to bid colledge to come to him , and i went and came again to haines with instructions how to proceed , and i took his examination of him , and carry'd it to my lord , and he desired it might be explain'd what he meant by the tall black-man , and says he , if he does mean the king , he must explain himself , and speak of the king , or the duke of york or the rest , and if he does , we will take care of him as long as he lives , but unless he does we will do nothing for him , and i was with him with my lord shaftsbury , and my lord shaftsbury did exclaim against the king. sir francis withins . what words did he speak ? mr. ivey . he said he was altogether an unjustman and not fit to reign , and that he believed he was a papist in his heart , and design'd to introduce popery , and therefore they design'd to depose him , and set up another in his stead ? sir francis withins . do you remember any discourse of richard the second , at that time ? mr. ivey , no sir , i do not remember any thing of it . bernard dennis sworn . sir francis withins . pray tell the jury what discourse you had with the earl of shaftsbury at any time , and what it was . b. dennis . my lord , i came upon a design to make cleer the plot in general , as far as i have travell'd , as in ireland , france , spain , maryland , virginia and england , and upon that account i was brought before a justice of the peace , in westminster in november last , this time month , and examin'd before justice walcup , a justice of the peace , and from thence to the committee of the house of commons , of whom collonel birch ( i believe he is here ) was chair-man , and gave in my evidence , and being called upon at the tryal of the earl of stafford , i was commended as i suppose to the earl of shaftsbury , and upon the account he sent me word of it , by william hetherington , who was then very intimate with the earl of shaftsbury to my knowledge ; and william hetherington came to me several times , and he precisely was my maintainer at that time ▪ that is , to find me what ever i wanted , and provide me my lodging , and carry me to some place where accommodation might be more better for me . upon this account one time the earl of shaftsbury sent to me , desiring that i would wait upon him at his own house . i came to him , and there in the gallery of his own house , walking very slowly he told me , what i gave in of the plot in general was very good and sufficient , but as to the queen and the duke of york , that i should speak more home and positive against them , at least that i might be a corroboration to others in what they swore against them ; this was all at that present time , that the earl of shaftsbury spake to me , and he desired me to go home to his lodgings . with that i went home , and within a month it may be , or thereabouts , he sent for me again , by the same william hetherington , and william hetherington told me , that the earl of shaftsbury would speak with me . so i came and waited upon his lordship at his own house , and say's he , mr. dennis i understand that you are a clergy man. yes my lord , said i. and say's he , i would advise you to take a black gown , and i will preferr you to a benefice , till such time as this business is over ; and , says he , at the end of this business i will not fail to preferr you to a better , and in the mean time i would advise you to take a black gown ; and this was a little , as i remember , after the parliament was dissolv'd at oxford ; and he sent a gentleman out of his own house along with me , to a doctor of divinity living hard by lincolns-inn fields , dr. burnet by name , as i remember , and the gentleman acquainted the doctor what i was , and about what occasion i came there ; so the doctor indeed discoursed with me very familiarly , and rend'red thanks to the earl for me into his conversation rather then another's . what discourse we had then was nothing to the matter , it was about matters of conscience , and religion . but mr. colledge that was the joyner here in town , and executed afterwards , being familiar with me brought me to one mr. ferguson a minister , as i suppose of the presbyterian form , for he goes in their garb as near as i can tell , and mr. ferguson at our first meeting was in richard's ▪ coffee-house , in an upper room one pair of stairs , and in some company ; and colledge going to him brought him aside , and spake to him concerning me , and he came to me apart , and discours'd with me ; from whence he brought me to a bookseller's shop . and bought for me the articles of the church of england , and in all these discourses there was a hand , as colledge told me , of the earl of shaftsbury who did procure him , and sent to dr. burnet to bring me that way . i do not deny neither , that i had an inclination before i left ireland , and when i was in spain , and when i was in france for to become a protestant , according to the laws and rules of the church of england . the force of what i have to say is this , the earl of shaftsbury one day after all these things were past , and after the parliament were dissolved at oxford , discoursing with me in his own house , major manley being in the same room then , who lives beyond tower-hill , he asked me what was the present occasion i came to him there , and it was pretty early in the morning , and the earl had a barber to trim him in his room . i told him my occasion was then , that i was something low in money , that i did a little want money at that time , and did not know to whom to speak for any thing but his lordship , and said i came to tell you so . well , say'd he , mr. dennis i have appointed mr. rouse , john rouse whom you know , for to give you and maintain you in money ; go to him especially once a week , and he will give you money . and , said he , mr. dennis , what is the number of your name in the country as near as you can tell , how many are you ? my lord , said i , to tell you exactly what number they be of , i cannot at present , but within a little time , i may tell you . i believe really there may be upon the matter or able men of my name , in the county where i was born . say's the earl of shaftsbury , mr. dennis , i would very willingly have you to advise those of your name , and those of your friends for to be in a readiness , when ever occasion shall serve , and to stand by , if occasion should be , for to assist the commonwealth of england ; for we do really intend to have england under a common-wealth and no crown ; and , say's he , we intend to live as we see holland does , that is , to have a commonwealth , and to have no supream head , particular man , say's he , or king ; nor owe obedience to a crown ; and , say's he , we will extirpate the king , and all his family as near as he can ; and mr. dennis , say's he , i do admire that your nation should be such fools as they are , for it is very certain that king james , queen elizabeth , king charles the first , say's he , and the king that now is , does wrong you to very destruction ; and , say's he , if you had been under a common-wealth , the common-wealth would take more pitty of your nation , and the gentry of your nation , then any doe of them now , in this time wherein the king governs , and upon this i doe count the irish fools . this is all that i can say . l. c. j. the king's council declare they will call no more witnesses , for they think they have called enough already , and there are several of them that doe swear words that are treasonable in themselves , if you do desire to ask any of the witnesses any thing , you shall have them all call'd one by one . fore-man . my lord , we will walk up again , and consider what questions to ask ▪ and come again presently . mr. papillon . it seems they will call no more witnesses then these . l. c. j. not against the earl of shaftsbury , being you are charg'd only with that . mr. papillon . it is so my lord , but we pray we may be satisfyed upon the statute the indictment is grounded , because we may hear it read before we go up , because your lordship speak's of two different statutes , the th . of edward , and you mention the statute of the th . of this king ; your lordship in your discourse to the jury mentioned them both , we pray your lordship to acquaint us upon what statute it is grounded , whether upon both or one of them . l. c. j. look ye gentlemen , this is grounded upon the statute of this king , though there is enough to find an indictment of treason upon the statute of the th of edward the third ; that which is treason within the statute of the th of edward the third , is treason within this statute , so this is the more copious statute ; for as i told you before , this statute has enlarged that of edward the third in a great many particulars ; and therefore look ye gentlemen , always consider this , when one statute contains the matter of another , and inlarges it , the indictment is always upon the last statute , that being the more copious statute : but you are to consider both . l. c. j. nor. the indictment is contra formam statut ' . and it being contra formam statut ' . it may be understood , statutorum or statuti , so that all statutes that may be the foundation of this indictment you may go upon . jury . we desire to know whether any of these witnesses stand indicted or no. l. c. j. look ye , gentlemen , don't talk of this , but consider with your selves , an examination or proofs concerning the credibility of the witnesses is not properly before you at this time ; for i must tell you , and inform you as to that , you are not to examine properly here concerning the credibility of the witnesses , that is not to be proved or controverted here before you , that is matter , upon a trial by the petty jury , for there the king will be heard for to defend the credit of his witnesses , if there be any thing that can be objected against them ; it is proper for the prisoner to do that , you are only to see whether the statute be satisfied , in having matter that is treasonable , and having it witnessed by two men , by two witnesses , who are intended prima facie credible , unless you of your own knowledge know the contrary ; for otherwise , you must consider what a disadvantage this would be in all such cases , if the credibility of the witnesses should be examined before the grand jury , where the king is not present , nor in a possibility of defending the credit of his witnesses ; the prisoner or the party indicted is not here ; that is a proper objection when he comes upon his trial ; for all men are intended credible , till there are objections against them , and till their credits come to be examined on one side and the other . mr. papillon . my lord , if your lordship thinks good , i will beg this , i desire your lordships pardon , whether your lordship doth not think that we are within the compass of our own understanding and consciences to give our judgment ? l. c. j. your own understandings and consciences , yes ; but look ye , gentlemen — mr. papillon . if we are not left to consider the credibility of the witnesses , we cannot satisfie our consciences . l. c. j. look ye , gentlemen , you are to go according to the evidence of the witnesses ; you are to consider of the case according to the things alledged and proved , unless you know any thing your selves : but if any of you know any thing of your own knowledge , that you ought to take into consideration , no doubt of it . jury . very well , my lord. l. c. j. the grand jury are to hear nothing , but the evidence against the prisoner ; therefore for you to enter into proofs , or expect any here , concerning the credit of the witnesses , it is impossible for you to do justice at that rate . the jury withdrew , and the court adjourn'd till a clock . l. c. j. let the witnesses be brought in one by one . foreman . we will first ask a question of mr. gwynn . mr. gwynn . foreman . who put up the papers ? mr. gwynn . i put up the papers my self . foreman . who went in with you ? mr. gwynn . none but my lords servants , i think , were there : but i put up the papers my self . foreman . pray , sir , whose hand writing is that paper of ? mr. gwynn . indeed , sir , i can't tell . foreman . how did it come into my lord shaftbury's closet ? mr. gwynn . my lord , this is a strange question . indeed , sir , i can't tell ; all the papers that i found in that closet i put into that bag. l. c. j. to satisfie the jury , was the paper in the closet before you came there ? mr. gwynn . my lord , it was certainly ●●●re , for there i found it ; i don't know the particular paper , but all the papers in that bag were there . l. c. j. from whom had you the key ? mr. gwynn . from my lord shaftsbury . foreman . don't you know , sir , there was a discourse in the parliament of an association ? mr. gwynn . sir , i was not of the last parliament . sir , i know nothing of it . foreman . you have not heard then , that there was such a thing in parliament concerning an association ? mr. gwynn . i have heard of an association talked of . foreman . mr. secretary , i would ask you some questions , if you did not know of a debate in parliament of an association ? mr. secretary . i was not present at the debate ; but there was a talk in town of an association . foreman . did not you hear of it in parliament ? mr. secretary . indeed there was an answer to a message from the house of commons that had some thing in it that did strongly imply an association ; but this particular association i do not remember to have heard propos'd . foreman . don't you remember in the house of commons , sir , it was read upon occasion of that bill ? mr. secretary . i heard such a thing spoke of ; but at the reading of it i was not present , to the best of my remembrance . foreman . what date , sir , was the warrant for my lord shaftbury's commitment ? mr. secretary . i refer my self to the warrant , for that i do'nt know the date . l. c. j. mr. secretary , you must speak about the time that it was ▪ mr. secretary . sir , i was the man that had the honour to sign that warrant by which the serjeant at arms did apprehend my lord shaftsbury , but what day of the month i do not remember ; and therefore i refer my self , if you please , to the warrant , and to the serjeant at arms. foreman , what month was it ? mr. secretary . sir ? foreman . about what month ? mr. secretary . july . foreman . the beginning of july ? mr. secretary . sir , i do not remember the day precisely , for i did not foresee that question would be asked me ; but i refer my self to the warrant , and that is beyond all doubt . foreman . i suppose all these witnesses that are examin'd , were examin'd before the committee . mr. secretary . sir , they were examin'd , and i was present at the examination . foreman . all of them ? mr. secretary . i don't know whether all of them ; but i am sure i was at the examination of several of them . foreman . how many , sir ? mr. secretary . i can't tell truly how many . foreman . call mr. booth . officer . he is not here , the tipstaff has him some where . foreman . is that witness a prisoner ? l. c. j. booth is a prisoner . foreman . then call mr. turbervile . mr. papilion . is mr. turbervile there ? officer . here is mr. booth come now . mr. godfrey . put turbervile out again . foreman . mr. booth , you told me of a discourse that past between the lord shaftsbury and your self , we desire to know where it was , and when . mr. booth . it was in thanet-house , sir , where he lived , about a week or ten days before the parliament sat at oxford . foreman . the precise time . mr. booth . i cannot be more precise . foreman . who introduced you ? mr. booth . i think one mr. wilson led me into the chamber . foreman . who was present when the discourse was ? mr. booth . none but he and i , sir. l. c. j. if we have these noyses , we will have every one of you put out of court. mr. att. general . richardson , richardson , pray turn them all out ; they are brought in on purpose . mr. booth . it was not the first , second , nor third time that i had waited upon the lord of shaftsbury . foreman . in what room was it that my lord spake those words to you ? mr. booth . it was in the room he usually sets in , on the left hand as we come out of the long gallery , i think we pass'd through a room before it , wainscotted about , as i remember , and hung . i have been in that room with him four or five times , i am sure . foreman . after this discourse with you , how long was it before you spake of it to any body else ? mr. booth . truly i think i did not publish this discourse that my lord and i had , from the time it was , till within this seven or eight weeks . foreman . you were never examined before then as a witness ? mr. booth . no , sir , i never was , nor no body will pretend it , i suppose . foreman . to whom , sir , did you give your first information ? mr. booth . sir , i sent my first information in writing to the lords in the council . foreman . by whose hand ? mr. booth . by the hand of walter banes. foreman . you had several discourses with him ; had you easie admission , or was it with difficulty you came into his company ? mr. booth . i was admitted by the influence of captain wilkinson at first , and ever after went with him , and had easie admittance and familiarity with him . foreman . was he with you every time ? mr. booth . no , not every time ; he was not this time with me . foreman . did he talk to this purpose every time ? mr. booth . something to this purpose he did talk every time , but not so fully ; for i was first acquainted with this business of oxford by captain wilkinson , and i had a great desire to understand it from my lords own mouth , because i would be satisfied in my lord's interest , as well as his conduct . foreman . pray , sir , what education have you had ? mr. booth . i have had the education of a gentleman , an academical education . foreman . were you ever in orders ? mr. booth . yes . foreman . do you own your self to be in orders still ? mr. booth . how do you mean to be in orders ? i tell you i was in orders ; but i am not now benificed . foreman . do you officiate as a minister ? mr. booth . no. foreman . were you ever an attorney's clerk ? mr. booth . never . foreman . or a justice's clerk ? mr. booth . never ; nor to no mortal . foreman . were you ever indicted for any felony ? l. c. j. that is a question not to be asked by any jury-man of any witness whatsoever : no man is bound to discover any thing of that nature that is criminal , concerning himself . foreman . if it be pardoned , my lord , he may . l. c. j. pardoned , or not pardoned , he is not bound to accuse himself , nor to fix a scandal on himself . mr. booth . no , my lord , nemo tenetur seipsum prodere . l. c. j. sir , we must not suffer such questions ; i will tell you the reason : it is proper for a prisoner that stands upon his justification to object it , but then the prisoner must prove it : it lies upon him to prove it . mr. papilion . mr. booth , you told us of fifty men that were listed under captain wilkinson , do you know any more of them ? mr. booth . i never directly conversed with any other . mr. papilion . did you know any more of them ? mr. booth . no , not directly i did not , but only by captain wilkinson's information . mr. papilion . how many stories was that room where you talked with my lord ? mr. booth . one pair of stairs , as i remember . mr. godfrey . was it the right hand as you came in ? mr. booth . i think so . mr. godfrey . was it the right hand or the left ? mr. booth . i went into the long gallery first , and stayed there about a quarter , or half an hour ; and i remember very well i looked upon some maps that were there , to divert my self a while ; and when i was called in , went out of the gallery on the left hand , and went through another room before i came into my lord's room . foreman . did you never hear my lord speak treason in any house but his own ? mr. booth . i never had occasion to hear this discourse from my lord ▪ but in his own house ; i never waited upon him in any other house . foreman . was you never desired to be a witness against my lord shaftsbury ? mr. booth . not till i intimated some thing of it . foreman . who was that too ? mr. booth . that was to mr. banes , i told you before so . foreman . and what then ? mr. booth . when he told me of his business with the yorkshire attorney brownrigg , i did say again , i did not know what my lord had done as to any thing of irish-men , but i was sure there was something as to english-men , as to that purpose . foreman . did he propose any reward , or any thing of that nature ? mr. booth . not a farthing ; for i think he had no commission to do it . foreman . are you acquainted with one callaghan and downing , two irish-men ? mr. booth . no. mr. godfrey . were you never in their company ? mr. booth . not that i know of . mr. godfrey . did you ever hear their names ? mr. booth . i don't know that i have . foreman . were you in their company lately ? mr. booth . not , as i know of . i do not remember either their names or their persons , nor do i know them from other men . foreman . do you know one mr. shelden ? mr. booth . no. foreman . do you know one mr. marriott ? mr. booth . no , sir : i have heard of one marriott that did belong to my lord duke of norfolk . foreman . when were you in his company ? mr. booth . never that i know of . foreman . has no body discoursed you from him ? mr. booth . no , no body . foreman , did you never hear of any witnesses he sent to his tenants ? mr. booth . i have heard from banes about brownrigg , about irish witnesses . mr. godfrey . did you never hear of any irish witnesses sent down by mr. marriott to the isle of ely ? l. c. j. we gave you all the liberty in the world , hoping you would ask pertinent questions , but these are trifles . i did not expect that any wise men would have asked these questions . mr. godfrey , was it to the purpose whether mr. marriott sent any irish witnesses to his tenant , or no ? what is that to this business ? foreman . my lord , i have it under the hand of the clerk of the council . mr. booth . pray , sir , did any inform you that i had any correspondence with this man ? l. c. j. nay , sir , you must ask no questions . mr. godfrey . mr. booth , do you go under no other name but booth ? mr. booth . no , nor never did in my life . mr. booth . my lord , i cannot go in safety here for the tumult . l. c. j. let the officers secure him : mr. sheriff , look to him , that the man be secure and safe ; i will require him at your hands else . mr. sheriff pilkington . what should i do ? l. c. j. send your officers to protect him , as becomes you , that he may be secured from the rabble here . mr. turbervile . foreman . mr. turbervile , when you had this discourse with my lord shaftsbury , who was present with you ? mr. turbervile . one of his servants ; truly i cannot tell his name . foreman . no body else ? mr. turbervile . i know the name of none of his servants , but mr. sheppard , i cannot remember any body else . foreman . did he carry you up to my lord ? mr. turbervile . it was he , i think , told me i might go in : i was in the dining room . foreman . what time was this ? mr. turbervile . in the morning . foreman . what time was it when you had this discourse with my lord shaftsbury ? mr. turbervile . it was in february . foreman . what time in february ? mr. turbervile . about the beginning ; i cannot tell exactly to a day . foreman . how long was this before you communicated this to any body ? mr. turbervile . it was about the fourth of july . foreman . then you concealed it from february to july : who did you communicate it to first of all ? mr. turbervile . the first deposition i gave was to mr. secretary . foreman ▪ which secretary ? mr. turbervile . secretary jenkins . foreman . pray what room was it you had this discourse in ? mr. turbervile . sir , it was the room at the upper end of the dining room ; i think they call it the dining room ; at the upper end of the room , and turns on the left hand where he lay . foreman . did you meet with no body about the beginning of july , after my lord's commitment , and tell them when you were challenged , and told you were to be a witness against him , as you were alive you knew no such thing ? mr. attor . general . my lord , this is not to be allowed : this is private instructions which the jury are not to take . foreman . no , sir , it is not private instructions . did you not speak such words to william herbert ? l. c. j. have you had any information concerning this to mr. herbert ? foreman . my lord , i have a long time ago . my lord , such a person did tell me so and so , and set down the day ; and he then said he was very angry with him for it . l. c. j. look ye , gentlemen , what discourse you take up at random in every coffee-house ? is that fit to be brought in when treason is in question against the king's life ? are these coffee-house discourses , do you think , ground enough for you to cavel at persons , because you have heard this discourse in a coffee-house ? foreman . my lord , i never was in a coffee-house in my life with mr. herbert ; but he declared this to me some months ago . l. c. j. and you think this is ground enough for you against him ? mr. papilion . my lord , we only ask this question , whether he hath not contradicted this , or said the contrary to any body else ? mr. turbervile . i do not remember that ever i spake one word to mr. herbert in my life ; and i can give you one reason . for i was discarded by all the people of my lord's interest at that time ; and if i had given under my hand that i had known nothing against him , i believe i might have been in their favour as much as before . mr. papilion . were not you one that petitioned to the common council in london ? mr. turbervile ▪ i did , sir. mr. papilion . and did not you declare then that you were tempted to witness against your conscience ? mr. turbervile . i believe i never read the petition : it was drawn by the order of mr. colledge , by a man that lives about guildhall ; by a scrivener about guildhall ; and i signed that petition , but never read it , nor knew what was in it . l. c. j. mr. richardson , any you officers , watch by those men that make a noise , and bring me in one to make an example . mr. turbervile . my lord , i go in danger of my life , for the people threaten to stone me to death , and i cannot go safe to my lodging . mr. papilion . what was your design in signing that petition ? what did you look for ? mr. turbervile . the design was that the city should take care of us . mr. papilion . were you in a poor condition ? mr. turbervile . truly i was not very poor , though i was not over full of money . mr. papilion . it is a strange thing that you should petition for relief , if you were not in want . mr. turbervile . we were told by some members of the house of commons , that there was a vote in the house of commons ready to pass , that the city should advance money for the support of the witnesses , and that we would petition that they would answer the design of the parliament . mr. papilion . what members were they ? mr. turbervile . it was a member of the house of commons that told me so , i will assure you two of them . mr. papilion . did never any body move you , or desire you to be a witness in this case against my lord shaftsbury ? mr. turbervile . no body in my life . when i came to speak the truth of what i knew , i did it voluntarily . mr. papilion . you did it voluntarily ? mr. turbervile . i did , i will assure you . mr. papilion . do you know any thing more than what you have said here ? mr. turbervile . no , not one tittle . mr. papilion . mr. turbervile , i desire to be satisfied in one thing , whether my lord shaftsbury was committed before or after your information ? mr. turbervile . truly , sir , i cannot tell positively , as to that point ; but i believe it was before ; i cannot tell . mr. papilion . did you hear my lord speak these words in any other room or place ? mr. turbervile . no , indeed , i did not . mr. papilion . it was about the fourth of july , you say , your depositions were taken ? mr. turbervile . about that time , i suppose the fourth of july — i hope your lordship will take care that we be not knock't on the head . l. c. j. that we give in charge to mr. sheriff ; and see you do take care of the king's witnesses at your peril . it is a reflection , not only upon the government of the city , to suffer these disorders , but upon the whole kingdom : therefore , mr. sheriff , look the witnesses come by no hurt . mr. john smith . mr. papilion . mr. smith , the jury ask you a question , whether or no you did not use to go by the name of barry ? mr. smith . sir , what names i have gone by is not pertinent to this purpose ; i tell you i have gone by several names , as all popish priests do . mr. papilion . did you never go by the name of barry ? mr. smith . it may be i might ; i have gone by several names , as all popish priests do . l. c. j. did you ever go by the name of barry ? mr. smith . i did , my lord ; it is usual for popish priests so to do . mr. papilion . what religion are you of , mr. smith ? mr. smith . i am a protestant , sir. mr. papilion . how long have you been a protestant ? mr. smith . many years . mr. papilion . when were you first converted ? mr. smith . first converted ? mr. papilion . ay , to the protestant religion : you say you have been one many years ? mr. smith . i have been a protestant , and was perverted to the popish religion ▪ and afterwards became a protestant again . l. c. j. bring in one of those men that make the noise . cannot you bring in one of them ? mr. papilion . when did you receive the sacrament ? mr. smith . i believe not above three months ago , as the rector of bow-church will inform you : i have it under the church-wardens hands in other places in london . mr. papilion . have you been desired to be a witness , or did you do it voluntarily ? mr. smith . never desired , i declare it ; i did it voluntarily of my self . mr. papilion . when did you give in your evidence first ? mr. smith . truly i cannot exactly tell when i gave it in ; i did not keep an account of it . mr. papilion . what month ? mr. smith . i cannot tell . mr. papilion . was it before my lord was committed , or after ? mr. smith . i believe it might be a little after . whether it was before or after , i cannot exactly tell . mr. papilion . to whom did you give your information ? mr. smith , my lord , they commanded the people to stone us to death . l. c. j. who did ? mr. smith , several persons , and when we were at the tavern , dr. oates's man came out and gave the rabble a bottle of wine , and bid them knock us down . l. c. j. do you know what the mans name is ? dr. oates i know nothing of it my lord. l. c. j. what is your mans name ? dr. oates , i keep half a dozen men , my lord. l. c. j. i hope you keep no men to affront the king's witnesses . dr. oates , no my lord , it is a mistake , i know nothing of it , we went thither to refresh our selves . m. papilion , mr. smith , who did you give your information to ? mr. smith , what information ? mr. papilion , the first information . mr. smith , my lord , am i to answer to these questions ? l. c. j. ay answer them , tell them . mr. smith , my lord ▪ the information i gave in to secretary jenkins , but i gave notice long before of what i intended to do to other persons . mr. papilion , when did you hear these words ▪ speak to the time exactly ? mr. smith , which words do you ask ? mr. papilion , those you mentioned even now . mr. smith , sir if you please , i know you take all in short hand , if you ask me what words , i will tell you , for if i do not express my self in the same words as before , you will take hold of me . l. j. c. i will tell you this , this may be an ill question , for he told you , he had discoursed my lord shaftsbury at a great many times , and that at sometimes he said these words , at other times other words , and for you to catch him upon a question , it doth not shew a fair inclination . mr. papilion , my lord , under your lordships favour , we only desire to discover the truth , we are not for catches . l. c. j. ask him then which of the words you would have him declare the time of , and he will tell you . mr. papilion , let him speak his own words , it was about the time when hetherington went thither . mr. smith , truly i will answer that as punctually as i can , the month or day i cannot well tell , but the person that came for me was major manly ; and he came to bethels club , what time that was , i cannot say , but if you please to inform your selves of those gentlemen that i name , i believe they will tell you mr. bethel was there present , and knew very well i went to my lord shaftsbury that night , and returned to the club again . mr. godfrey , was it in the evening or the morning ? mr smith , mr. godfrey , clubs are usually at night i suppose , you know that was . mr. papilion , where did you see my lord shaftsbury ? mr. smith , it was in his dining room . mr. papilion , did you hear these words in any other place , or at any other time , or any treasonable words against the king ? l. c. j. look you gentlemen , he told you of several other words at several other times . mr. papilion , but he said all at his house , my lord. l. c. j. ay , but at several times . mr. smith , i know mr. attorny , what the gentlemen would be at very well . l. c. j. answer them whether you did hear him speak any words that you conceive treasonable at any other time ? mr. smith , i did not indeed . mr. papilion , in another place ? mr. smith , i do say i did not . mr. papilion , did you petition to the common councel ? m. smith , no sir i never did . mr. papilion , are you an english-man or an irish man ? mr. smith , that 's no matter , no more than if i were a french-man or a dutch-man . l. c. j. give them an account whether you are an englishman or an irish-man . mr. smith , my lord , i beg your lordships pardon for that , if i were an irishman , whether thereupon my evidence would be prejudiced . l. c. j. look you mr. smith , i do hope the gentlemen of the jury have more discretion among them all , than to think that an irish-man is not a good witness , i hope they are not such persons . mr. smith , my lord , if you please whilst i was in the city amongst them , i never petitioned to the city , i never had a farthing from them , nor ever spake to any for it , i never had any occasion for it , but if i had , it is probable i have enough in england , and other places , without being beholden to your common council . l. c. j. will you ask him any more questions ? jury , no , no. mr. papilion , is mr. smith gone ? i would ask him one word , we would fain know what allowance you have , or what you receive , if you have any allowance , from any body ? mr. smith , from whom ? mr. papilion , nay , i know not from whom : i ask whether you have any from any body ? l. c. j. look ye gentlemen , is that a question that is pertinent ? i wonder you will go to such questions : we allowed you to ask questions your selves , because we look upon you as men of reason . mr. papilion , my lord , i do not know but it may be a proper question to ask him if he have any allowance from any man upon this account . l. c. j. upon what account ? mr. papilion , upon this account , if he says he has none 't is an answer . l. c. j. do you intend your question , whether he is bribed to give evidence , if you mean so , speak plain . mr. papilion , we ask if he have any allowance ? mr. smith , you don't ask me how the or l. was made up . l. c. j. you that are upon your oaths should have a care what you do . bryan haynes . mr. papilion , mr. haynes , when did you give in your information upon this matter ? mr. haynes , against the earl of shaftsbury , sir ? mr. papilion , ay. mr. haynes , the day that i was taken by the messenger . mr. papilion , that was before my lord was committed , was it not ? mr. haynes , yes sir , it was before my lord was committed . mr. papilion , did you ever make any other information to a justice of the peace ? mr. haynes , not of my lord of shaftsbury . mr. papilion , nor touching this matter ? mr. haynes , no not any information upon oath , i may have discoursed with a justice of the peace . mr. papilion , did not you give in an information of a design against the earl of shaftsbury ? mr. haynes , to none but to secretary jenkins . mr. papilion . you understand the question , whether you did give no information of a design against my l. shaftsbury to some justice of the peace ? mr. haynes , no no , to none but mr. secretary jenkins . l. c. j. you do not observe his question , did you ever give to any justice any information of a design against my lord shaftsbury . mr. haynes , yes my lord , i did to sir george treby , i made affidavit before him . mr. papil . when was that ? mr. haynes , i think it was in march last . mr. papilion , what was that design against my lord shaftsbury ? mr. haynes , the design was what mr. fitz-gerrald told me , he told me he gave under his hand to the king , that the earl of shaftsbury did resolve to set the crown upon his own head , or otherwise to turn the kingdom into a common-wealth . mr. papilion , fitz-gerrald told you this , and so you made affidavit of it ? mr. haynes , yes , before sir george treby . mr. papilion , what time ? mr. haynes , it was before the parliament met at oxford . mr. papilion , so you say the words were , when were the words spoken that you mentioned ? mr. haynes , the words against my lord ? mr. papilion , ay. mr. haynes , he spake them to me a little before i made affidavit , i cannot tell positively the time . mr. papilion , that was before his commitment . mr. haynes , yes , yes , my lord was committed in june last , this affidavit was made in march last before the recorder of london . l. c. j. north , when you ask him about the information of the design against my lord shaftsbury , he says that was in march last , and when you ask him about the evidence he gives now , that was the same day he was apprehended by the messenger . mr. papilion , about june you say it was , that you say you gave in the information against my lord shaftsbury . mr. haynes , the information i made against my lord shaftsbury was in june last , the th . as i take it of june last . mr. papilion , where was it you had this discourse ? mr. haynes , i had several conferences with my lord. mr. papilion , did he every time say the same ? mr. haynes , the last time i spake with him was in iron-monger-lane , for mr. whitaker told me he would speak with me , and he would fain have me explain my self , what i did mean by the tall man i mentioned in the narrative , and i went to the house , and they told me he was there , and i sent up a note , and he desired me to come up ; but i sent word i did not care to come up , because i would not be known , and so he sent me word to meet him after dinner , and when i came , my name is haynes my lord , said i , and i led his lordship by the hand and went in there , i had i believe a whole hours discourse with him , and pray my lord said i , among other questions , what religion is the king of ? truly says he , mr. haynes he hath no more religion than an horse ; for saith he , they say sir , he was inclined to popery , when he came first to england says he , he had a tincture of popery , and was much inclined that way , but since he was degenerated from all the principles of christianity , for he is just like a perfect beast . mr. papilion , this you say was in iron-monger-lane . mr. haynes , ay sir , at a pastery cooks shop . mr. papilion , what time was it ? mr. haynes , after dinner in the after-noon . mr. papilion , in june , or when ? mr. haynes , i cannot tell what time positively , it was about the time of the trial of fitz-harris . mr. papilion , was it the same time he spake about the d. of buckingham ? mr. haynes , no , no. mr. papilion , when was that ? mr. haynes , that was when i was with him at his own house , and desired him not to expose me . mr. papilion , what time ? mr. haynes , i cannot tell sir , for i never thought i should be called to an account for it , and i cannot keep an almanack in my head , and i desired them not to expose me to the king's fury , for i heard the king was displeased with me : no says he you are mistaken , this is the best opportunity we can have , and if he will not give you a pardon , we will raise the whole kingdom against him in arms , and then he makes himself the master and author of the plot , and consequently he must expect to be ruined , unless he grant you a pardon . mr. papilion , did you ever hear any other words than what you have now testified ? mr. haynes , yes sir , for i discoursed with him in iron-monger-lane a great while , and told him that our only and best way to have our ends of the king , was to raise a rebellion in ireland , and that i had relations and friends , and could get discontented persons enough , and his lordship would do the work here . mr. papilion , what , did you propound a rebellion in ireland ? mr. haynes , i offered to go beyond sea , and that now was the best time to raise a rebellion in ireland , and he said that was not the best way , for they had other means to take , and so the discourse was waved . mr. papilion , and is that all ? mr. haynes , that is all i remember now . mr. papilion , do you know of any other place or time ? mr. haynes , i was with him at his house . mr. papil . were you ever a witness for my lady windham or against her ? mr. haynes , no sir , but she arrested me , because i said i lay with her . john macnamara . mr. papilion , mr. macnamara , when was it you had this discourse with my l. shaftsbury , what is the time as near as you remember ? mr. mac. in march and april last sir. mr. papilion , twice then do you speak of ? mr. mac. yes sir. mr. papilion , which is that that was in april ? mr. mac. that was the last , the last discourse was in april . mr. papilion , to what purpose was that ? mr. mac. my lord said that the king deserved to be deposed as much as king richard the second did . mr. papilion , in april you say . mr. mac. in april . mr. papilion , when did you give information of this ? mr. mac. i cannot exactly tell sir. mr. papilion , repeat what you said . mr. mac. that the king deserved to be deposed as much as king richard the second , and that he took the dutchess of mazarines advice in every particular , which was the worst of woman kind . mr. papilion , what time in april was this ? mr. mac. it was in the beginning of april . mr. papilion , where ? mr. mac. in his own house . mr. papilion , who was present ? mr. mac. there was mr. ivey by . mr. papilion , when did you make information of this ? mr. mac. i cannot tell , it was a good while ago . mr. papilion , was it before his commitment ? mr. mac. yes sir it was . mr. papilion , to whom did you give information ? mr. mac. to the secretary of state , sir. mr. papilion , which of them ? mr. mac. mr. secretary jenkins , sir. mr. papilion , did not you petition the common-council sir , for relief ? mr. mac. yes sir , i signed a petition that was drawn up , but i did not see it till it was brought to me to sign . mr. papilion , did you read it ? mr. mac. no i never read it neither . mr. papilion , nor don 't know what is in it ? mr. mac. no nor don 't know the contents of it . mr. papilion . my lord , in that petition they say , they were tempted to swear against their consciences , and that some of the witnesses had made shipwrack of their consciences ; we ask them now , and they say , they do not know what was in the petition : if we should ask them who tempted them , and who those witnesses were , that made shipwrack of their consciences , it would signifie nothing ; for since they do not know what was in the petition , it is in vain to ask them any more . mr. mac. for my part , my lord , i never saw it till it was brought to me to be signed , and do not know the contents of it ; but i heard mr. colledge that was executed at oxford , was concerned in promoting the petition , by my l. shaftsbury's advice . dennis macnamara . mr. papilion , dennis macnamara , tell us how you were introduced to my l. shaftsbury , when you had this discourse ? d. mac. by my brother , sir. mr. papil . what , he that was here last ? d. mac. yes , sir. mr. papil . he introduced you ? d. mac. yes , sir. mr. papil . when was it ? d. mac. it was in march last , the latter end of march , or beginning of april . mr. papilion , cannot you tell which of the months ? d. mac. no , i cannot be positive in it . mr. papil . who was by ? d. mac. there was mr. ivey . mr. papilion , no body but mr. ivey ? d. mac. no body but mr. ivey and my brother . mr. papilion , where was it ? d. mac. it was in his own dining room . mr. papilion , were none of his servants in the room ? d. mac. not that i know of . mr. papilion , are you sure none of his servants were there ? d. mac. not that i know of . mr. papil . did you hear any thing else , at any other time ? d. mac. no. mr. papil . nor in any other place ? d. mac. no. mr. papil . when did you give in this information ? d. mac. i gave it in a good while ago , sir , i cannot be positive . mr. papilion , was it before my lord was committed ? d. mac. yes , a great while . mr. papilion , to whom did you give it ? d. mac. i gave it to the secretary of state. jury , cannot you remember how long it was before ? d. mac. no , i cannot at the present . mr. papil . which of the secretaries ? d. mac. secretary jenkins . mr. papilion , my lord , i only propose , whether we may not ask whether he have not a pardon , for it would be a satisfaction to us for some reason . l. c. j. north , look you here gentlemen , when the prisoner makes exceptions to the witnesses , then it is proper , but here are no exceptions to the vvitnesses . mr. papil . my lord , we make no exceptions , but we must satisfie our own consciences , my lord , that we must do , and that is very much , as we find the credibility of the vvitnesses . l. c. j. north , gentlemen , what do you mean that he should have a pardon for ? mr. papil . for crimes . l. c. j. north , you must not ask him to accuse himself . mr. papil . if he hath a pardon , he is in statu quo ; suppose , my lord , some of them have been guilty of poysoning , some of felony , some of robbing on the high-way , we do but ask them if they be pardoned ? l. c. j. north , a man must not be impeached , but where he may answer for it . mr. papil . my lord , if you do not give us leave , we must forbear then . l. c. j. north , i do not think it proper to ask . edward ivey . mr. papil . the discourse that you had with my l. shaftsbury , when was it , at what time ? mr. ivey , it was a little after the sitting of the parliament at oxford . mr. papil . vvas it at more times than one ? mr. ivey , yes , sir , several times . mr. papil . all the same discourse ? mr. ivey , no , not the same discourse . mr. papil . the words that you spoke of , when was that ? mr. ivey , that was after the sitting of the parliament at oxford . mr. papil . about what time was it ? mr. ivey , it was about the latter end of march , or beginning of april . mr. papil . when did you make information of this ? mr. ivey , i cannot be positive in that neither . mr. papil . before my lords commitment or after ? mr. ivey , a while before . mr. papil . to whom did you give it ? mr. ivey , to the secretary of state. foreman , who was present when my l. shaftsbury spake those words ? mr. ivey , both the macnamara's , as i remember . foreman , who else ? mr. ivey , truly , i do not remember any else privy to our discourse , neither am i certain , that both the macnamara's were there , one of them was there i am sure of it . foreman , what was the reason you concealed this information so long , had you no inducement to make it at that time , how came you to do it then and not before ? what was the reason , you say it was the latter end of april and may , my lord was not committed for a good while after , here was two months time ? mr. ivey , i am not certain how long a time it was before , but i made it as soon as i could . foreman , i ask you , whether you know any thing either of words , or treasonable actions , or any thing of my lord of shaftsbury , spoken or acted at any other time or place ? mr. ivey , no , i have declared what i know , as to the particulars . bernard dennis . mr. papil . mr. dennis , in the morning you told me something about the discourse you had with my l. of shaftsbury , tell me when it was ? mr. den. it was in april , or dayes after the parliament was dissolved at oxford . mr. papil . in the beginning ? mr. den. in march , after the parliament was dissolved at oxford . mr. papil . it was in march , and where ? mr. den. in his own house , here in this town , or dayes after the parliament was dissolved at oxford , immediately after he came home , i do not think he was at home days before . mr. papilion , who was present with you then ? mr. dennis , there was in the room mr. sheppard his gentleman . mr. papilion , who else ? mr. dennis , some of his servants , his pages i suppose , but whether they did hear this or no , i cannot tell . mr. papilion , did my lord whisper it , or speak out ? mr. dennis , my lord is not a man of an high voice , but of a mediocrite voice . mr. papilion , did he whisper it in your ear ? mr. dennis , no , i was just by him . mr. papilion , who was in the room besides ? mr. dennis , no body , only his servants . mr. papilion , vvhen did you make this information ? mr. dennis , i made it in the month of june . mr. papilion , in the month of june ? mr. dennis , yes sir. mr. papilion , before my lord was committed , or after ? mr. dennis , before . mr. papilion , vvho did you make it to ? mr. dennis , i made my information to the secretary of state. mr. papilion , vvhich of them ? mr. dennis , secretary jenkins . mr. papil . vvhy did you conceal it so long ? mr. den. because i was in the city so long . mr. papil . did you ever go about to muster your . men you had in ireland , i ask you whether you did or no ? mr. den. upon my word i did advise some of them to be ready . mr. papil . and did you provide them with arms ? mr. den. not i sir , i was not able to do it . mr. papil . vvhat religion are you of ? mr. den. i am a protestant . mr. papil . how long have you been a protestant ? mr. den. i have been a protestant since febr. last . and this i must confess , that when i was in spain and france , my resolution was to be a protestant . mr. godfrey , mr. dennis , pray who was in the room when you were there ? mr. den. the earl of shaftsbury sir. mr. godfrey , vvho else ? mr. den. mr. sheppard . mr. godfrey , vvho else ? mr. den. i cannot name them . l. c. j. mr. godfrey , when another man asks a question , you should consider what is said , and not ask the same question over and over again . mr. papil . in what place in his house ? mr. den. in his own chamber , in the great chamber , i do not know whether you call it the hall or the parlour . mr. papil . vvas it above stairs ? mr. den. yes , it was above stairs , my lord does not use to speak with any below stairs . mr. papil . is this all that you know , have you heard my lord say any treasonable words in any other place , or at any other time ? mr. den. in the long gallery , in his own house , at another time . mr. papil . vvhy did not you say so before ? mr. den. i did say so before , in the long gallery he told me he would have a common-wealth in england , and extirpate the crown of england and the king of england . mr. papil . is that all , speak all your knowledge ? mr. den. he said we should all irish-men conform our selves to a common-wealth , and by that we should get our estates again . mr. papil . i ask you if this is all you have to say ? l. c. j. do you remember any more ? mr. papil . more than you said in the morning ? mr. den. he said he would extirpate the king , and make england a common-wealth , and that we were fools and silly folks that did not comply our selves to their factious party , and that we should get our estates , and that he would get me a black gown and a benefice , in the mean time , and when all things were done he would prefer me to a better , and not only my self but all that were of my name , and would stick to me . mr. papil . is this all ? mr. den. this is all . mr. papil . then you have nothing more . mr. den. i never spake to him but in his own house . mr. papil . all your kindred are papists , are not they ? mr. den. no sir , i cannot say so , but most of them are . l. c. j. north , vvho can say that , that question no body can answer . l. c. j. look ye gentlemen , now you have asked these questions , you had best go and consider what evidence is delivered , and weigh well all those things that have been said to you , and you must consider your duty , you are to enquire here , whether it be fitting for the king to call my lord shaftsbury to question upon this account of treasonable words . mr. papil . my lord , we desire before we go , that either the law may be read , or we may have the statute-book up with us . l. c. j. the statute-book was never denyed , but you shall have the law read here : first the statute of the th . of edward the third , and then this last statute . l. c. j. north , i would say one thing , because i observe that some of you asked the question , whether the parliament did not debate about an association : whether it related to that paper or no , i am not certain , i hope you will consider that paper well , for my part i must needs say for my self , i heard of it , but i never heard it read before , and never heard the contents of it ; but it seems to me to show what those officers were to do , for the ends of this association , and one of those ends as i remember ( gentlemen , i refer you to the paper , and hope you will consider it , you are men of understanding ) i thought that one of those ends was to destroy the mercenary forces in and about the cities of london and westminster , and that the government was to be by the major part of the members of parliament in the sitting of parliament , not with the king , but the major part of the members of parliament . gentlemen i may mistake , for i profess i speak only out of memory ; but it seems to me to be of great consequence , and there is great matter to be presumed upon it , it being found under lock and key in his study : but i suppose my lord shaftsbury may give an account of it , but there is great presumption upon it , it doth not import to be an association by act of parliament . mr. at. gen. vvhen the parliament was prorogued or dissolved , then the major part of the members in each county engage themselves to follow their command and obey their order . l. c. j. north , gentlemen , i hope you will consider your oaths , and give all things their due weight . l. c. j. vvill you have the statute read ? jury , vve will read it above . the jury withdrew to consider the evidence , and returned the bill ignoramus , upon which the people fell a hollowing and shouting . mr. at. gen. my lord , let it be recorded this hollowing and hooping in a court of justice . the end . the true case of john butler, b.d., a minister of the true church of england in answer to the libel of martha his sometimes wife : treating of a marriage dissolved and made null by desertion and of a lawful concubinage in a case of necessity, wherein lawful marriage conveniently or possibly cannot be obtained. j. b. 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the true case of john butler, b.d., a minister of the true church of england in answer to the libel of martha his sometimes wife : treating of a marriage dissolved and made null by desertion and of a lawful concubinage in a case of necessity, wherein lawful marriage conveniently or possibly cannot be obtained. j. b. (john butler) [ ], p. printed for the author, london : . contains numerous errors in pagination. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (divorce) -- england. runaway wives -- england. concubinage -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - melanie sanders sampled and proofread - melanie sanders text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the true state of the case of john butler , b. d. a minister of the true church of england : in answer to the libel of martha his sometimes wife . treating of a marriage dissolved , and made null by desertion . and of a lawful concubinage in a case of necessity : wherein lawful marriage conveniently , or possibly cannot be obtained . psal. vii . ix . o let the wickedness of the wicked come to one 〈◊〉 but establish the just : for the righteous god trieth the hearts and reigns . pro. xxviii . xxiv . whoso robbeth his father or his mother , and saith , it is no transgression ; the same is the companion of a destroyer . london , printed for the author . . to the reader . wo unto the world because of offences , ( saith our saviour ) mat. . . but wo unto him especially by whom the offence cometh . wo is an harsh word , and be speaks misery , and so much the worse , out of our saviour's lips , because his words are never uttered in vain . that i am charged , and that deep and widely , with great offence , hurts me not so far as i am innocent : but wo be to him or her who is guilty , be the clamour most silent . adultery is a foul crime , and fornication , a dangerous sin ; and both these are laid at my door . and the smart of this slander is so painful and sore upon me , that i feel it wherever i go : for many very good christians , and holy people mourn for me i find , as if i am so indeed . and two good men my neighbours , and my brethren of the clergy , supposing me to be so indeed ; most kindly befriended me with a brotherly reproofe ; for which as i had great reason , i was very thankfull , and returned them my thanks in an answer as i thought meet : unto which i had no reply . but others more barbarously have hag'd lying reports , and cherishing slanderous clamours , have increased the noise . in the mean time suspecting that there were snakes in the grass , i became patient with dum silence , and saying to my self , that days would spake , and years would teach wisdom . job . 〈◊〉 . for tho much was said , and more was thought , much noise , and little musick , loud clamours , and small truth : yet the testimony of my conscience , concerning the sincerity of my conversation towards god and man , administred joy and comfort to my soul , in the midst of my wounded reputation , even as it were at the gates of death , cor. . . and yet after more than ten years waiting for a tryal of truth , i found my self rendered a publick shame , both among clergy and laity ; being wounded at a distance by barking curs , who keeping out of gun-shot , wounded me in the dark , so as 't was hard to say who hurt me : while to my face all men seem'd strangers , as if nothing ill had been once thought or spoken against me . hence was it trumpetted both in city and countrey to the ruin of my reputation , that i am or was a man deprived and cast out of the ministry , and my benefice , for misdemeanors , and that i have two wives at once ; am a whoremaster , a contentious man , a bankrupt , and a beggarly fellow , an enemy to the goverment , and abundance of such like stuff , which was almost every titile false . the first man who did me the kindness to say thus to my face , was mr. william cuffe , my fellow prisoner in the common goal at northampton . and verily i believe this innocent man spake as he really thought of me , being actuatedly my own most disobedient , and rebellious sons , to believe such lyes , of me . and tho he spake with too much of keenness beyond what became a man of his function ; having no proofe of what he spake , but out of bare hearsay , and common fame : yet do i freely forgive his slanders . and i do heartily thank him , that he gave me this first occasion to vindicate my self . i have reason to believe , that the ground-work of all these slanders , was laid by a more designing head , than that poor mans shouldiers were able to bear . no doubt but a diabolikal malice was at bottom of all , and at first contrived , and started those false reports , which cherished by my two rebellious sons , whereof one was a profess't roman-catholick , who by the principles of his religion was bound to seek all occasions he could imagine , with safety to his own person to destroy me , as one accursed by a papal decree , for anobstinate haeretick ; and for that reason i having disherited him of his birth-right as my eldest son : he became somuch the more embittered against me : insomuch as his mother thereupon deserted my bed , joyning issue with this rebellious and schismatical son of her delight , to divorce her self most obstinately , malitiously , and absolutely from our marriage bed , after we had lived together , much comfortably and happily for above thirty years as man and wife in holy wedlock . god is my witness how unapt i always was to harbour an ill opinion of this woman my somtimes , ( as i verily thought ) loving wife . for tho there was just suspition of her overmuch familiarity with other men , and of her want of love to my self ; because of a purloining knack she had of private selling my goods , over and above her allowance , and by keeping up a private purse ; and by a coldness of affection , in case of any difference with her intimates , or kindred , being all ways apt to take party against me . but espcially for that , when by meanes of adverse fortunes in the world , i was driven to lurk at some distance in remote places , for about three years space , she never was the woman that gave me one visit , during that kind of restrained exile ; no , tho for near ten moneths of the said time i was a close prisoner in the fleet : and for as many moneths before that , had not so much as once seen her face ; and yet she knew well where i was , and wanted for no conveniency to come at me ; and tho i often importuned her by letters , yet she would not regard me , but seemed as if pleased with my absence , and as if at that time she had begun to desert me utterly . and yet after all these things , when the storm of my troubles was over , i came home to her and abode with her as formerly , as if she had never given me any occasion of offence . and at length when she did utterly deny any further duties to me in her marriage bed ; yet still i used all possible means to reclaim her , for one whole year and more , untill i found her past all hopes of reconciliation : and then i concluded with the apostle , . cor. . . that seeing i could no longer contein , it was beter to marry again than to burn , and now it is more than eleven years since she has thus deserted me , and yet now at length she chargeth me with adultery , or fornication , or incontinency , or with all . and yet i thank god for it , who by his grace hath preserved me , that i never had carnal knowledge with any man's wife , before or since i knew her , and never had a child by any woman but her self until above one year after she utterly left me . and in attestation of these thing , and in vindication of my proceedings in the whole mater , i have written this ensuing treatise , in answer to her scandalous libel . and in vindication of the nullity of our marriage by her desertion of me , of the lawfulness of an honest concubinage , in a case of necessity , where lawful marriage cannot conveniently , or possibly be enjoyed . unto which discourse , i refer my readers , as to the malitious rebellions of both my sons , who were the chief incendiaries , unto all the evil that their said mother hath acted against me . and yet i have great reason to imagin , that the green heads of these infernally inspired villains , had yet a deeper foundation then their own unripe pales to build upon . there was among my pretended intimate friends , a certain divine of the church of england as he pretended to be : and might a man of integrity be judged by his hat and gown , and girdle he was so cap-a-pee . or might a man be distinguished by his graceful garb , a smooth tongue , affable discourse , and a courteous presence ; he could not be otherwise . but when we approach so near a man as to find an achitophel's head , rabshakel's lips , and a doegs hard heart , all met in the presence of a stubborn jew : and a church-man's habit upon the body of a secretly resolved papist ; what can a man look for but a beast out of a bottomless pit , throwing about his firebrands , arrows and death , and saying am not i in sport ? what can a man expect otherwise , but infernally contrived mischiefs , which without the gracious help of god above cannot reasonably be prevented . i have received this sting at mine heart . and these humble papers are intended as an humble antidote against the poyson thereof : and the good god grant me his blessing therein according to my integrity . let truth and righteousness ever flourish ; but let lyes and slanders of the ungodly always be detected , and come to nought . and the good lord of his mercy justify the innocent , and let me ever escape the malitious plots and contrivances , of the venemous lips of cham , ham. and let not the innocent and godly sons of the pure church , who have kept promise , tho to their hurt , be ensnared to believe the gilded lyes of a false brother . amen . the true state of the case between john butler , clerk , and martha somtime his wife , in a matter of marriage , dissolved by desertion . as it is now about to be controverted in the honourable court of arches , by a libel brought by the said martha against john , and the allegation of the said john in answer thereto , &c. the libel came to the hands of this respondent on the tenth day of june . and says as follows . in dei nomine , amen . coram vobis venerabili & egregio viro georgio oxenden , legum doctore almae curiae cantuar de arcubus london : officiali principali legitime constituto , vestrove surro . aut alio judice in hac parte competenti quocunque , pars discretae foeminae marthae butler uxoris johannis butler de hammersmith in com : mid : cler contra & adversus dictum johannem butler ejus maritum paroch . de hammersmith predict . ac con. & adversus quemcunque alium five quoscunque alios per viam quaerelae ac vobis in hac parte querelando dicit allegat . & in hiis scriptis injure proponit articulatim , pro ut sequitur , viz. imprimis , that the said john butler clerk , and martha butler formerly perkins , daughter of one isaac perkins , being free from all matrimonial contracts , were on or about the seventh day of may , which was in the year of our lord god , joined together in holy matrimony , by a minister in holy orders , in the parish church of weedon in the county of northampton , according to the rites and ceremonies of the church of england ; and after such their marriage , they did live or cohabit together as lawful man and wife , and for , and as lawful man and wife , they the said john butler and martha , were and still are commonly accounted , reputed , and taken to be ; and the said marriage hath been consummated by carnal copulation , and he the said john butler hath had several children born on the body of the said mar ha his wife , four of which ( to wit simon , alban , annsusan , and barbara ) are now living , and were and are commonly accounted , reputed the lawful children of them the said john and martha butler his wife ; and the marriage of the said john and martha butler doth appear to be entred in the register-book kept for marriages in the parish church of weedon in the county of northampton aforesaid . hoc que fuit & est verum publicum notorium manifestum pariter ac famosum , ponit tamen de quolibet alio temporis spatio majori medio vel minori , & ponit conj . & divisim & de quolibet . such is her first article of her libel . unto which is answered by this respondent , that it is not altogether true , being stuft with several presumptions which cannot be prov'd , nor aptly be discovered . and first , as to the pretended marriage this respondent saith , that it was really his desire , that such a marriage might have been effected as in the libel is pretended ; but in the year above mentioned it was a time of rebellion , and of great disorders both in church and state , and the lawful way of solemn matrimony , according to the rites and ceremonies of the church of england was gainsaid , and ●●erly forbidden in those days , and forty shillings fine imposed on every minister as should marry by the common-prayer book and hence lawful ministers in benefice durst not perform lawful marriage , under the pain of the said forty shillings 〈◊〉 . wherefore this respondent being ill willing to submit unto a scismatical and new invented form of marrimony , was constrain'd to make use of a stranger that he never saw before nor since , who was a man out of benefice , and promised to marry us in due form in the church , as in the libel mentioned . and in presence of witnesses did begin to read the form of marriage ; but in the management , whether out of mistake or ignorance , or willfulness , this respondent cannot say ; but so it was , that he neglected and utterly omitted to use that most essential part of the marriage , whereby this respondent should have been betrothed to the said martha the complainant . and altho this respondent did whisper and correct him by making known his mistake ; yet he amended it not , seeming as one confounded and in an amazement , insomuch that the company burst out into a loud laughter . so as he did not take this respondent by the right hand , nor cause him to take the said martha by her right hand , and to say after him saying , [ i john take thee martha to my wedded wife , to have , and to hold , from this day forward , for better for worse , for richer for poorer , in sickness and in health , to love and to cherish , till death us do part , according to god's holy ordinance , and thereto i plight thee my troth . ] which passage thus utterly omitted , and at that time not to be amended . somthing was said of making us man and wife without it . and considering the rudeness of those times , and the difficulty of marriage to be rightly obtained as the case stood : this respondnt observing that the place was thin of witnesses ; and those who were present not so sufficicatly read as to apprehend the deficiency , past over the matter with silence , and did cohabit with the said martha as his lawful wife ; whence followed a common repute , that the said martha was his wife lawfully married to him , and he had carnal copulation with her as with a wife , and did heartily love her , and owned her as his wife for many years , notwithstanding the defects in the solemnity of his marriage . and did humbly conceive as those times were managed that he was as well married by taking a woman into his bed without other ceremony , as if he had been married by the directory then in use , or by the justices ; forms of marriage . utterly illegal , tho' countenanced by the rebellion . and since by the act of indemnity in the reign of king charles the ii , this respondent humbly conceives his defficient marriage is become as legal and good in law , as if it had been most truly solemnised . and he doth heartily consent hereby that she was his lawful wife , and that this respondent had never denied her had not she cast off him . ly as to the marriage entered in the register-book kept for marriages at weedon aforesaid , as is alleged . this respondent doth farther say , that he hath seen such a pretended marriage entered in the said book , but withall , he utterly denies that it was lawfully and orderly registred , either by the minister that pretended to celebrate the marriage , or by the minister of that church , or by the clerk of the parish : but was put in by some stealth , or hired to be done many years after : for that about five or six years after the pretended time of marriage , at what time the strange minister that essayed to marry us was dead , this respondent did purposely call for the said register-book , and did plainly see and find that no such entrance was made , but afterwards upon a new search he plainly found that there was such a marriage set down ; but then it was so as that it was plainly interlined , and written with a strange hand , diverse from all the rest that were recorded therein . ly . as to the children which were had of the body of the said martha the complainant ; this respondent doth farther say , that out of his aboundant love to the said martha his pretended wife , he never doubted to own at all times the children by her brought forth , as his own natural and well begotten children ; and doubts not but that all or most of them which are dead , were lawfully and well born , and likwise that the two surviving daughters were so . and altho' there have bin suspicious carriages sufficient to provoke jealousies , and giving just cause to recriminate the libellatrice , and something thereof is mentioned in this respondent's alligation put into court : yet in this publick discourse this respondent is willingly silent . only as to the two sons in the libel mentioned , called simon and alban butler ; such has been their undutiful , disobedient , most abominably malicious . and diabolically rebellious carriage towards a pretended father , that no rational man can imagine , that truly natural and lawfully born children , can possibly degenerate so far as to be guilty of such monstrous language , and infernal actions as these pretended sons have been guilty off against this respondent . all neighbours can testify that this respondent hath done his utmost duty by them , as a tender father , to spare for no cost to his utmost ability , in contributing to their health and learning , and all holy nurture in the lord. the youngest has enjoy'd a fair portion under him , and might have been setled as heir of all that this respondent is like to leave behind him , had he not burst out into inhuman rebellions and base ingratitude . the eldest had several years in his hands the management of this respondent's whole estate , and did get or might have gotten a sufficient portion under him , until first running into intollerable debaucheries , and at last becoming a profest roman-catholick he caused himself to be discarded . the younger owes this respondent at this day l. upon account , and yet pretends by a kind of a cheat that he owes nothing . both of them have used violence against this their pretended aged father , have thrown him down by violence in his own house and rifled him ; have cheated him , robbed him , slandered , reproached , reviled and upbraided him at a strange rare , in presence of the complainant martha their mother , who in many things was their abettor : they have threatned him with sword in hand , swaggering over him in strange presumptuous postures : they have used all possible means to impoverish him , to ruin him , and to starve him , by abetting enemies to overthrow him , and have occasioned his imprisonment . and at this day by compliance with an horrid extortioner that has a mortgage upon his inheritance , these sons together with the complainant their mother , are very unjustly in possession of the inheritance of this respondent who is constrained to sue in equity to gain his bread out of their rapacious teeth , while they use all possible means in these hard times , playing upon his wants to rob him of all he has , in order by law to disable him from using a just defence . these humble complaints this poor respondent hath uttered in the bitterness of his soul ; upon the words of a priest , and of such a priest as has kept his oaths and promises to his hurt ; and god knows , who knows the secrets of all hearts , that he hath uttered no lie . and all who know him do know , and he presumes will restify to the integrity of his reputation . it is written deut. . . cursed be he that setteth light by his father or mother : it is god almighty hath said it , and all the world are bound to say , amen to it . is this respondent father to these brats ? if so , how much good would their repentance avail him beyond their ruin ? but he leaves them as to that matter to god the avenger , who knows all things . the same great god has determined it , chap. . . that such wretches are to be ston'd to death with stones , that all israel may hear and fear , and that no more such presumption may be done again . and the father a lone in this case is to be the witness . but alas ! as times go , rude villains find more friends then innocent parents : god save all according to his just vengence , amen . but what shall be said ? are these children ill born bastards ? god knows ! and if so , the fault is elsewhere , rather than with this respondent . however they are plainly the devils brats , and none of god's children according to the sense of the apostle . ● john . , , . and thus they are bastards of ungodliness , and the discreet woman their mother , as the libel stiles her , by taking share in their rebellions , cannot be thought so very faithful as is pretended . and now come we to the ●d . article , which says , item , that about , or at least years since , one mary tomkins did live in the house with them the said john and martha butler as their servant , and the said john butler being unmindful of his conjugal vow , and seduced and instigated by the devil , did about ten years since commit the foul crime of adultery , fornication , or incontinency with the said mary tomkins , his said maid servant , and it being taken notice of that she was with child by the said john butler her master , he the said john butler and the said mary tomkins went into holland or some other partes beyond the seas , where they lived incontinently together for the space of two years or thereabouts , and the said mary tomkins had there a bastard child born , and begot by the said john butler , called by the name of mary , and for and as the base child begotten by the said john butler , on the body of the said mary tomkins , the said child mary was and is commonly accounted and reputed , and thereof there was a publick voice , fame and report . ponit tamen de quolibet alio tempore spatio , &c. & ponit ut supra . such is her second article ; whereof her first charge therein is , that one mary tomkins was a servant in the house of this respondent ; which be it true , yet what maters it to her purpose ? except it be to call this respondent to remembrance , how that this complainant before her pretended marriage with this respondent , was her self no better but a meer maid-servant in the house of his grand-mother in law , who was then called martha or mat , and being sent out by her mistress to wash daglocks , or the befould locks of the sheeps ●ils , at a brook running by an open high-way side , at which time this respondent out of tender love griev'd at her disparagement , gave a groat to a poor woman to wash in her stead , that she might be excused and she was so : she ought not therefore to have envy'd , that he who had so much love for her self a maid-servant , had some lawful kindness also for another of the same degree . ly . to her second charge , that this respondent as one unmindful of his conjugal vow , and seduced and instigated by the devil , did about ten years since commit the foul crime of adultery with the said mary tompkins his maid-servant . this respondent farther saith , that this is a pernicious and slanderous lye , invented by the complainant martha her self at the insinuation and instigation of the devil , and her foul mouth'd sons . for as for mater of adultery , it is a thing utterly inconsistent with her own charge . for the said mary tomkins being no man 's wife , but a maid-servant , as her own self avers , and the said respondent being no woman's husband as she also her self must needs know , unless of the said mary tomkins ; with what face of impudence could she call it adultery , had such a thing been done as she alleges ? for the complainant her self has so often confest it that it is out of her power to deny it , how that above one year before , that ten years since , wberein she charges this adultery to be done , she had clearly divorced her self from this respondent's bed by a malicious and obstinate desertion , having utterly dissolv'd all bonds of wedlock between this respondent and her self by her own authority , by breaking her conjugal vows in willfully denying the duties of marriage required in holy writ . and yet farther to satisfy all the world how unjustly this respondent is charged with this foul crime , he does hereby solemnly protest and declare , and does hereby offer himself-before this honourable or any other court , to take his compurgatory oath , that he never had to do in a carnal manner with any man's wife breathing . and that he never did deny marriage duty to the said complainant his pretended wife , while she was his wife , and that he had no hand of contrivance in puting her away from him , but that the separation which was made was perfectly and purely her own act , in a free pernicious and obstinate refusal of her marriage duty . ly . as to the fornication and incontinency , wherewith this respondent is charged ; he farther saith , st as to fornication , which is an heinous sin , whereby a man is guilty of carnal knowledge or uncleaness with any woman , forbidden by god's law , or by excess of carnal usage with his wife or any other lawful woman : he saith as to the last , he cannot deny but that he hath been guilty , and the first and greatest act of fornication that his conscience can charge against him was with this complainant martha while she was his wife . and that as for any other mater of fornication this respondent doth heartily protest in the presence of god , and is ready to take a compurgatory oath upon the same , at what time soever it shall be lawfully required , that during all the time before and after the day of his pretended marriage with this complainant about the year , unto one whole year and more after the time of dissolution of the said marriage , by means of the willful , obstinate and malicious desertion of this complainant , he never had child by any other woman besides the complainant her self , and never in all that space went unto any common whore . and tho this complainant and her two ungracious sons , have often upbraided , slandered , and reviled this respondent , with most abusive raileries , and have filled the country with many slanders and suspicious reports of maters said or done above twenty or thirty years since , concerning what kindness this respondent might have shewn to particular persons more than ordinary ; this respondent doth solemnly protest and declare that he never had carnal knowledg of any such woman , for whose sake he was aspersed , nor did he ever attempt or desire such a thing of any one of them so spoken off . and as for the said mary tomkins , this respondent farther saith , that until utterly relinquished by his wife , and above one whole year after , she never had any child by him , nor was she with child by him : and after that time he was guilty of no other nor greater fornication with her , than what our holy father abraham the father of the faithful was guilty of , when purely for issue sake , and not of any lustful concupiscence , he went in to hagar his wives maid , or unto keturah his concubine in the life time of sarah his wife . now abraham was not charged with any thing of fornication in that case , but rather was acquitted by god almighty as purely and truly innocent , altho'he had done the very self same thing which this naughty woman chargeth against this respondent for adultery or fornication ; but the case of this respondent is much easier than that of abraham , forasmuch as at the time aforesaid abraham had a wife then in his bed with him ; but this respondent had no wife , unless it may be esteemed that the said mary tomkins was his lawful and his only wife , according to the sense of holy writ . lastly , as for incontinency , which in its self is no sin , unless it be expressed in unlawful uses . this respondent doth confess and allege , that he is one of those men , of whom our saviour hath declared , saying , all men cannot receive this saying , mat. , . and of whom st. paul hath declared , saying , they who cannot contein , let them marry , for it is better to marry than to burn . . cor. , . now this respondent being not naturally endowed with the gift of continency from heaven , had license by god's law to marry . and being married his wife denied him her conjugal duty ; that is , she did obstinately deny him the use of her marriage bed . in this case what should this repondent do ? to go in unto a whore , he might not do . and to marry another wife , without a lawful license from lawful authority , it was not convenient because of a statute law in force , that under a severe penalty , no man might have two wives . and tho in the truth of this case , it was not having of two wives , for that the marriage with the first was of course dissolved : yet being under judicature of others , who might censure according to their own sense ; there was danger of being pinched by the judge , tho not by the law , and therefore it was an hazardous case . and in those days wherein this desertion was made , popery had possessed the supream seat , and there were high commissioners superseeding all other courts in power , who acting in favour of persons popishly enclined : no sentence could reasonably be expected according to the justice of holy writ , wherein the popish doctrins clashed with the sense of the reformed church ; they holding marriage indissoluble , as one of their seven sacraments , without a dispensation from the pope : and these allowing a clear dissolution thereof , in case of a desertion , according to the doctrine of st. paul , in cor. , . in this case therefore a man 's own consoience was a good judge in the case , at least until contrary maters could be proved before a competent judge . and the testimony of holy writ was a sufficient law for conscience to be guided by , and this without the assistance of being backt by authority , in a case where an authoritative sentence could not be had : as it was in st. pauls time , wherein the magistracy being altogether paganish , no such sentence was required as needful . and as in the marquess of vicum's case , wherein the supream authority being popish he married again with out such a sentence . 't is true indeed he had a sentence by authority from the syndick of geneva : but that was as much as just nothing , for that first that syndick had no authority to summon his wife to appear at their court , she being not under their jurisdiction : and secondly being alay-power , set up of their own accord , without power from god , or his word , had not so much power as the one conscience of the marquess himself . and now as the case stands , this repondent humbly presumes , that the honourable court of arches , cannot and will not judicially reprove him , who hath acted nothing . but what is agreable to holy writ , and a good conscience ; and humbly prays that this pernicious complainant may be called in to swear this alligation of this complainant , and forasmuch as these secret dealings of the marriage bed being difficult and doubtful to be made plain by eye witnesses , that the said complainant may be required to answere upon her oath ; unto the charge of this repondent whether or no she hath not thus 〈◊〉 , malitiously and obstinatly denyed unto him this respondent her conjugal duties , and that tho she was often 〈◊〉 to the contrary , and all possible means were used , and that for above a twelve-moneth , to wit , from the th of july , unto the moneth of september , but she would not yield unto him . and this in trust that upon her just confession and due proof hereof made , this respondent may by lawful sentence of the said honourable court , be declared quit and free , and fully dissolved from all bands of marriage with this complainant the said malitious desertrice ; in order that he may lawfully confirm that lawful marriage , which in part he hath entered into with another woman . for this respondent humbly conceives that his first marriage with the complainant being by her default absolutely dissolved , and it being utterly unlawful for him to go in unto a whore , that necessity required him who could not contein , and conveniently could not marry with safety , to take another woman as he did , after the manner of the faithful , and holy abraham , for issue's sake , and to marry her , as well as reasonably could be done . and whereas this respondent has thus compurg'd himself , by his protestation of innocency , and his readines to make oath of the same , and there appearing none the least clear proof to the contrary ; he humbly expects and hopes , that notwithstanding this impudent slander of this wicked woman the complainant his pretended wife , against him , this honourable court , and together therewith , the whole world will pronounce and think him clearly innocent ; and that not only from the foul crime of adultery , but also from the heinous sin of fornication ; and from all unlawful incontinency . but before this respondent concludes his full and perfect answer to this second article of the libel : he humbly thinks himself concerned , as he is a divine in holy priestly orders , to argue for the better satisfaction of this honourable court , and of all persons , clergy and laity , unto whose ear this case may perhaps arrive ; what is to be done , in this case of desertion , and what ought lawfully to be done in all respects . and that according to the judgement of the ablest and best divines , in all christendom , and according to the civil , and canon laws in these times of reformation . and first as to the true state of the case of desertion , whether made by the man or the wife . st. paul saith , cor. . . if the unbelieving depart , let him depart ; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such a case : but god hath called us to peace . next , mr. john diodali of geneva , in his annotations upon the place , writes thus ; depart , i. e. be divorced for hatred to the religion , or marrieth another : or that all possible and reasonable remedies having been used , and a conve●●● time allotted for that purpose , the unbelieving party cannot be induced to a due conjunction . a brother , namely the believing party , is loosed from the bond , being thus forsaken by the unbelieving party . johannes wollebius , dr. theologiae in acad. basil. in compendio theologiae , cap. xi . fol. . [ scribit ut sequitur , ] viz. simpliciter conjugio repugnant adulterium & malitiosa desertio utrumque istórum parit divortium . [ de desertione dicit . ] cor. . . at si infidelis sese separet separatus esto , non est servituti subjectus frater aut soror in hujusmodi casibus . amandus polanus a polansdorf syntagmate theologiae christiana , lib. x. cap . de divortio conjugum . scribit . ut sequitur , viz. divortium est legitima conjugii solutio . cause divortii duae sunt tantum : una adulterium , altera desertio , id est malitiosa alterius conjugis disccssio , nulla justa causa , sed vel odio verae religionis propter quam cum conjuge habitare recusat vel levitate , vel injusta patientia fraeni conjugalis , vel aliis non justis , & sufficientibus causis , cor. . . inter has causas ea est differentia , quod adulterium sit propria atque unica causa dimittendi conjugem adulterantem , atque in eo casu proprie conjunx innocens divortium facit , ac proinde aliquid agit , conjuge dimittendo . in desertione autem malitiosa & pertinaci conjunx innocens non agit , sed patitur , aliud enim est dimittere conjugem adulterantem , aliud a conjuge ultro discedente dimitti & deseri namqui a conjuge ex destinata malitia discedente deseritur , is patitur & non agit , non dimittit conjugem , sed animo retinet , & retinere cupit . qua propter is maritus non potest dici secisse divortium contra christi verbum , quod , mat. . . & cap. . . extat , qui injuriam hanc ab infideli patitur ; & qui manet in vocatione sua quantum in ipso est , licet parte altera discedente . in procedendo , si non procedit reconciliatio , pars innocens non potest cogi ut recipiat ream . sed si persona accusans honeste vixit , & petit ferri sententiam . pronuncietur hoc modo : cum persona q̄uae deliquit suo scelere dissolverit conjugium , judex authoritate evangelii personam innocentem pronunciat esse liberam , & expresse ei concedit , ut pro sua conscientia pie contrahat aliud conjugium . wolfgangus musculus dusanus in commen . in mat. evangel . cap. v. necesse est ut certas causas statuamus ob quas liceat usurpare divortium etiam coram deo , salva conscientia & pacata . hujus generis geminam invenio culpam per quam solvatur matrimonii vinculum . una est quam dominus hic ponit , dicens nisi causa stupri , &c. altera est , quam apostolus assignat , cor. . . cum dicit quod si incredulus discedit , descedat . non est servituti subjectus frater aut soror in hujusmodi casu . si infidelis cohabitare nolit aut reliqua conjugii jura religionis causa recusarit . his inquit apostolus servituti non est subjectus . quod ergo christus non dicit , quisquis deseritur ab uxore sua quavis de causa & aliam ducit maechatur : sed quisquis repudiaverit uxorem suam quavis de causa , nihil ad eum pertinet ; a quo uxor non dimittitur , nec ejicitur , sed illa sese ultro persida separat , & discedit , mariti fidem obnoxium sibi jam amplius non habet , ambrosius apud musculum in eod . loco . locum hunc exponens ambrosus dicit non debctur reverentia conjugii ei , qui horret authorem conjugii . non est enim ratum matrimonium quod sine dei devotione est . ac per hoc non est peccatum ei , qui dimittibur propter deum , si alii se junxerit . contumelia enim creatoris solvit jus matrimonii circa eum qui relinquitur , ne accusetur alii copulatus . guiielmus bucanus s. s. theologiae in acad. lausannensi doctissimus professor in institutis theologiae , seu loc. com. christianae religionis . locus xiii . § . v. quot modis consumptum conjugium dirimitur ? duobus modis . i cum id quod per se , & jure nullum est , pro nullo habetur , vel ipso jure nullum esse dectaratur . . cum conjugium quod ratum fuit & confirmatum , dirimitur legitimis de causis . § . xii . anigitur possunt legitimis conjugia dirimi ? posse , justis de causis , deut. . . et ex ipsius christi verbis , mat. . , . § . xix . [ qua ratione cum christo est reconciliandus paulus qui cor. . . propter desertionem divortium fieri possit , statuis inquiens , &c. ] christus loquitur de faciente divortium , seu de eo qui dimitit injuste , de quo tantum interrogatus fuit . paulus vero de patiente , seu de eo qui injuste dimittitur ; qui interrogatus , an si infidelis fidelem deseret , fidelis teneretur sic astrictus infideli , ut ad secundas nuptias transire non posset ? respondet si infidelis discedat , personam desertam a servitute , idest a vinculo conjugii liber am esse , post quam scilicet omnia expertus fuerit , ut infidelem discedentem revocet ad officium . it a , quam christus ostendit causam divortii faciendi ; paulus vero causam divortii patiendi , & liberationem obtinendi propter desertionem . § . xx. [ qualem intelligit paulus desertionem ? ] hinc est quod magni nominis theologi infidelitatem illam de qua loquitur paulus , revocent ad genus videlicet ad quamlibet malitiosam injustam & pertinacem discessionem , & desertionem ; juxta illud , tim. . . [ qui suorum , maxime autem domesticorum our am non habet , fidem abnegavit , & infideli deterior est . ] et videtur etiam idem apostolus cum dicit [ non est servituti subjectus frater aut soror in ejus modi ] paria peccata intelligere . § . xxix . [ quid si magistratus officium negligat ? ] valeat perceptum apostolicum ad titum . . . [ haereticum hominem , ergo & atheum , apostatum , & blasphemum post unam & alteram correctionem devita . ] et dictum christi luk. . . [ si quis venit ad me , & non odit patrem suum & matrem , & uxorem , &c. non est me dignus . ] et mat. . . [ si oculus tuus scandalizat te erus eum . ] item , [ omnis qui reliquerit agrum , domum vel uxorem , &c. centuplum accipiet , mat. . . ] stephanus szegedinus panonius in theol. sincerae locis com. tab. xi . de divortio scribit & de absentia conjugis . [ quid de voluntaria & affectata absentia statuendum ? ] respondet talis absentia pro desertione habenda est : et est malitiosa . tria trium clarorum virorum memorabilia dicta . petri mellii . in casu criminis pro quo lex dei hominem interfeci jubet , divortium permitti potest : si aliter reconciliatio inter conjugales stabiliri neutiquam possit . stephanus szegedini . ibi inter volentes matrimonium solvi potest , ubi fines omnes conjugii impediti , ac sublati sunt preter adjutorium , quod etiam mendicis ipsis debetur . alberti bakonii melius est disitos angelice , quam conjuncto diabolice vivere : etiam eos quibus nulla ratio ad perpetuum suppetit divortium , & earatione pax magis colatur . tab , iii. si infidelis fidelem conjugem relig. causa repudiat : fratrem vel sororem , liberat a conjugii vinculo pertale repudium . such ( as by these quotations does appear ) are the doctrines of all the most learned divines of the reformed religion beyond seas , whether lutherans or calvinists . and our english divines do agree with them therein . thus the learned dr. hammond in his annotations upon , cor. . . and so the assembly of divines upon the same ; only as to marrying again after desertion they do not so largely express their sense , as these others have done . yet in his practical carechism , the doctor allows clearly marrying again in case of malicious desertion . book . § . and so nicholas bifield upon pet ' . . also the learned perkins , and divers others . now as for the learning of the civil law , this respondent cannot pretend to be so generally experienced : yet in confidence , that reformed civilians do agree with our divines , he shall only introduce one quotation out of a very learned doctor of the laws , and of the church and kingdom of denmark , melchior kling in his learned readings upon the four books of institutions of law , by the emperuor justinian , imprinted at leyden in the year . and dedicated unto christian k. of denmark , which speaks as follows ; lib. i. tit. x. de nuptiis fol. , num. . jus novi testamenti habetur in eo quot ad divortia attinet . enumer antur enim duae causae divortii , prima est adul . de quo mat. . secun . est si alter ex contrahentibus infidelis fuarit , & noluerit habitare cum fideli , sed discesserit permissum est fideli iterum nubere , cor. . fol. . numb . . certum est quod jus novi testamenti canonibus non cedit : igitur jus novi testamenti , incasibus in eo decisis simpliciter sine aliqua mutatione sive limitatione servandum sit . et in hoc casu sine dubio pugnae jus canonicum cum jure novi testamenti in multis . item utrum sola desertio conjugis sine adulterio sit causa divortii , & utum post divortium innocenti liceat , altera perte vivente contrahere matrimonium ? sed de his questionibus infra decemus . fol. . numb . . de divortio . aut quaeras utrum matrimonium propter haeresim vel talem errorem , in totum possit dissolvi ita quod fidelis , altera vivente , habeat transitum ad secundas nuptias & hoc casu sine dubio , fidelis potest nubere . now according to the sense of all these learned divines , both at home and abroad ; and the sense of the civil laws , which as it shall seem by this one learned doctor does agree with them in the same sense : it does appear that in case of a desertion made by the wife , the marriage with that wife is clearly dissolved , she having divorced her self from her husbands bed ; or rather as our english divines term it , she hath clearly made null and void , by that act of desertion that marriage which was between her self and her husband : and that so , as by the holy word of god , the marriage is declared null and void in its self without any farther sentence of the magistrate . for thus saith the text , if she will depart , let her go ; there needs no sentence of the magistrate in the case , especially where on , magistrate can be had in the case , or in a case where the magistrate either will not act , or at least will not make sentence , as the holy word requireth . for so saith the most learned bucanus ; in such a case after convenient admonition , and means used to reclaim such a desertrice , and she will not be reclaimed : a good husband may as freely and safely reject her society , so as never more to have to do with her , as he may reject an haeretick , so as never more to have to do with him , because he an is haeretick ; and this he may do without any sentence or leave had of the magistrate . tit. . . nevertheless for the conveniency , and the well-being sake of the case , the sentence of the magistrate is thought meet to be procured , were it for nothing else , but to abide as a sure test that all maters in the case were rightly and truly acted . for otherwise the desertrice , may return again , be it only to despight her wronged husband , and denying the desertion , may claim her old right anew . and besides there may be controversies about allowance of maintenance , all which by ajust sentence may at once be stopped . now this respondent allegeth , that in his case with his deserting wife , there was no authority but what at the highest was popish , that he could any way appeal unto ; and the ground of the desertion being chiefly and only for dis inheriting his eldest son , who had left his father's relig●on to become a roman-catholick ; he could expect no remedy but what would be superseded by the high-commissioners , from whom he could expect no right done him against the concern and interest of popery . 't is true indeed , that it was alleged , as if this respondent should say , that he had another woman with child by him , at that time , for-which cause his wife the complainant pretended to have relinquished him : and she alleges she can prove such words uttered by him . unto which he answer's , that true it is he was in a great passion , because of his son tùrn̄'d papist , and his wife violently siding with him , to excuse and justify him against this respondent : and what words in the heat of passion were utterd by him , he does not perfectly remember ; it is a mater on her part to be proved . but if some such like words dropt from him , he might be mistaken by the hearers , and misunderstood , or was it true that he said so , be sure it was not true that he said ; and he is ready to make oath thereof when ever called there to , that there was no such thing done , at that time , nor ever before , nor of above a twelve moneth after , and there is no track , or appearance , or testimony can be made of any such thing done as is pretended . but for a twelve-moneth after her desertion begun , he did continually solicit her to be reclaimed , and she would not , tho no sign nor token appeared , or was ever heard on , in all that time , of any woman with child by him . but this respondent is able to make proof , by several suspitious tokens of her unsaithsulness , and by her taking part with her kindred and acquaintance against him , and by secret parloynings made of his goods , besides a constant allowance alwayes made her ; and by her affected and voluntary absence from him for a whole year and half together , and by continual and causeless quarrels against him , that it was a causeless contrived malitious and obstinate desertion made against him , propagated and encouraged by her rebellious children . and now besides all these things it is now above eleven years since her desertion first begun , and yet in all this time she hath made no complaint . moreover this respondent hath several times offered her to refer all maters in difference with her , and offering to be concluded by reverend and holy fathers in god the bishops ; and particularly by the late bishop of bath and wells , unto whom she was contented to refer her self , and yet afterwards would not stand to it , nor to any other bishop , until at this time , knowing this respondent to be utterly destitute of maintenance , she sued out process in this honourable court , verily thinking to destroy this respondent , and to tread on him in his distress . and this notwithstanding he has been hetherto so kind to her , as to allow her maintenance all these years of his free good will , without any condition , until of late by meanes of false friends and mishaps of fortune , he wanted daily bread for his own relief , and could not allow her for want of wherewithall . and now having answered her scandalous charge , this respondent is ready to proceed to the mater of fact. and farther saith , that the said mary tomkins together with this respondent , and other company , did go over into holland , upon a very lawful and good account , having a license of absence from his dioe●●san , but not as an adulterer , or fornicator , or incontinent , or for fear of any discovery as this complainant malitiously insinuateth . for this respondent had a cure at delft in holland , and lived there publickly , being imployed to preach untò the english and scots in a publick church in delft for most of the time he tarryed there , and held correspondence with alban this complainants son all the time , who from time to time sent letters , and gave an account of his rents , and had a continual course of letters from this respondent . and there was no such thing as living incontinently with any woman , much lefs with the said mary tomkins . and the said mary tomkins had no bastard child born there , nither can any such thing be proved , nor was there any fame of any such thing , or any repute of a bastard child born there . but true it is that the said mary tomkins living there in delft in good repucation was delivered of a daughter who was baptised , and named mary , born on the th day of june . about nine years since . and of this child , this respondent does confess , he is ( as he verily believes ) the true father . and he humbly conceives it is a lawful anda well born 〈◊〉 for that being deserted of this complainant , his pretended wife , above two full years before this child was born , it was lawful for him to joyn himself , unto another woman , as by all the testimonies aforesaid it does appear . and what ever child he had at this time , was no wrong to her who had utterly forsaken his bed . and this child being but newly conceived at his coming away out of england , there could be no such thing as she malitiously in her libel suggests , ; that it was taken notice of , that the said mary tomkins was with child . now true it is , that this respondent was not married to the said mary tomkins , according to the customs of the church of england , for reasons as aforesaid : and whereas many will be apt slanderously to charge this respondent as one keeping a concubine , or living in concubinage with an unlawful woman : this respondent humbly answers , that in a sense he is lawfully married to the said mary tomkins , and that his children by her are lawfully born children , and no bastards . of a lawful concubinage in a case of necessity ; wherein lawful marriage conveniently or possibly cannot be obtained . and to this purpose he humbly conceives himself concerned to make it appear , according to gods , holy word , and the english customs , and good law of this land , there is a sort of most lawful and necessary concubinage , that in many cases cannot possibly be avoid . this first wife this complainant called martha butler , being never lawfully married to him this respondent could not be his lawfully married wife ; and yet both of us having done our true endeavours to be lawful man and wife , it was no fault of ours that we were not so ; for as the time then reigned , few were or could be lawfully married . but we were in a fair way to be lawfully married , and had been so , had not the mistake of the minister marrying , and unhappy accidents prevented us . wherefore having done what we could do , who shall blame us that we lived almost forty years together in concubinage , and were never truly married . until by the act of indemnity at the coming in of king charles the ii. our marriage , and a thousand more unlawful marriages , were all made good in law as if they had been the most regular marriages all of them , that ever were made by a minister in holy orders according to all the rites and ceremonies required by the laws and customs of the land. now all these thousands of marriages , which were made by the directory , and by justices , and by quakers , and many by taking one anothers words , were all of them but meer concubinages , and no more , but as if man and woman had gon to bed together , and begot children without any ceremony at all . for our law calls all bastards that are born out of marriage , and all directory , and justice marriages , were as much illegal , as those wihtout any ceremony at all , and were all equally fellows in concubinage , until the said act of indemnity set all strait , and made all good . now by the said act of indemnity of the xiith of king charles the ii. it is expressed that any the subjects of the said king , or the heirs or executors of any of them , shall not be sued vexed or inquieted by or in behalf of the kings , majesty , his heirs or successors , in their bodies , goods , lands , or tenements , for any manner of mater , cause , contempt , misdeameaners , &c. or any other thing suffered done , or committed , before the said th of june , against his late majesty , or that now is , his crown dignity . prerogative , laws , or statutes ; any statute , statutes , laws , customes , or usuages heretofore had , made or used , to the contrary in any wise not withstanding . and that all the said subjects , &c. may plead this act for their free pardon . now setting aside laws and statues of this realm , according to holy writ , there is no more ceremony requird , but consent on both parts , before witness sufficient , and beding together , according to exod. , . without any presence nessarily required of either magistrate or priest. and tho every one man , was to marry but one woman , who was to be lady or dame of the family , yet god did plainly allow of a lawful concubinage , or addional wives for the bed , for issue sake ; the issue whereof are no where termed bastards , either in old or new testament ; but upon all occasions in case of heirs male wanting by the proper wife , the son of concubinage , became heirs . thus ismael son of abraham by his maid servant should have been heir if isaac had not been born of sarah gen. , . and thus rehoboam son of soloman by naamah a meer concubine , was his heir unto his throne , for that he had no son by his proper wife : yea tho daughters , he had several . and thus jeph●bab son of gilead by a stranger , or a meer concubine , became the prince of the people , before any of his brethren , born of the lawful wife , because of his abilities above any of them . judg. . ● , , and , which had he been a bastard could not have been . for a bastard might not enter into any office in the church , to become so much as a constable or a church-warden much less a king or judge , deut. , . but was to remaine a slave equal to the gibeonites a hewer of wood , and a drawer of water . and at this rate none were esteemed bastards but children begotten in adultery or whordom , of another mans wife , or of a common whore ; and such could not inherit . incest was a foul sin , and yet the children born of incest did inherit , and were not reputed bastards , as pharez son of judah by his son's widow , and janna son of joseph arses by his nice : both which were heirs in the genealogy of our saviour , and therefore no bastards . but the pope made bastords of such , which by god's law are reputed well born . and from the pope , our statute laws still keep up the practice : declaring all childeren to be bastards , which are born out of marriage . so as childeren begotten out of marriage , was a sin against the king's laws and statutes and yet no sin against god's law. now it hapned that betewen the year from janu. . unto the of june . there were so many hundred thousand children born out of marriage , because of the true laws of marriage put down , that there was no other remedy to heal so many disorders in marriages , by sinning against the king's laws , but by an act of indemnity ; and by that act , all manner of sins against the king's laws , in case of deficient marriage , except some exceptions in that act expressed , whereof this is none . being pardoned . all sorts of comming together , by any single man and si , ngle woman , and not disallowed by gods laws , and the children born of such a beding together , are made as lawful to all intents and purposes , as if they had been married in all things according to the rites and ceremonies of the church of england . and hence all manner of concubinages between single persons during the time aforesaid were made good in law , by a statute-law . and thus the marriage of this respondent with this said complainant , became a lawful marriage by statute-law , as well as by gods law. and so it was also of all other concubinages of the same time , from , unto june . and the children of such a bed were lawful born children , and no bastards , but were and are to be taken , as the true and lawful heirs unto their fathers dignities and estates in as much as if they had been born of lawful marriage . and now the second marriage of this respondent with the said mary tomkins , being a lawful marriage according to god's word , barr'd of the benefit of the king's laws only , because of dangerous inconveniences in the way . and being in the same state as all the concubinages in the years aforesaid , laments only the want of the same remedy . and being a lawful marriage before god , pleads for its self as a lawful and innocent concubinage , tho not a good marriage according to the king's laws . ly . this respondent farther pleads , that tho the statute-law of this realm seem to condemn this his deficiency of marriage ; yet the customs of the kingdom do fully and plainly allow of it . for first whereas it appears by the chronicles of scotland that robert stuart the next heir unto david then king of scotland , as his eldest sisters son , lived with elizabeth the daughter of sir adam moor , as his concubine out of marriage , and had by her three sons , john , robert and alexander ; and afterwards the said elizabeth still living , he married with euphame the daughter of the earl of rosse , by whom he had two sons , called david , and walter . and after that being crown'd king , euphame dy'd , and he married his old concubine elizabeth : and being old he called a parliament of lord's spiritual and temporal , to advise him which son of right ought to inherit his throne . and it was resolved for the eldest son of the concubine , before the sons of his married wife . for that she had been a true wife to him before god in all things , excepting the deficiency of the rites and ceremonies of marriage . this therefore was approv'd of by all the wisdom of the realm to have been a lawful concubinage . and insomuch as the heirs of that concubinage are without any gainsaying admitted also to inherit the imperial throne of this realm ; it is also become an allowed custome in this kingdome also , that the heirs of a lawful concubinage may inherit the patrimony of their parentage . thus also in the case of william of normandy , who was born out of marriage , who was admitted , and his heirs after him , to enjoy the imperial throne of this kingdom , and owned as a lawful king by all the nobles and bishops of this realm . henry the seventh also of this kingdom was admitted and allowed in several parliaments , as the lawful heir of john duke of lancaster ; altho' he was the grand-child of john earl of sommerset , the son of the said john duke of lancaster by katherne swinford his concubine , born out of marriage ; and as i take it , in the life time of constance his wife : and the heirs of these concubinages do continue unto this day . now have parliaments admitted of such things as these as lawful and good successions ; and shall they not be called the custom of england : and if lawful customs , then custom pleads to be of kin unto a law ; yea , tho ar the sametime it seems to clash with law : but we must distinguish between matters of concubinage ; for tho' some of them may justly by law be condemned , yet some other of them in the mean while ought to have a despensation against the perils of the law. and among others , this case of the respondent humbly begs a reprieve , in asmuch as necessity for want of the power of continency requirs an honest company of some bed-fellows ; but it may not be an whore , and cannot with safety be a married wife according to the laws of this land , for want of an authoritative sentence to acquaint him of his former marriage , which when time was could not be gained ; and thus between three dangerous rocks necessity hath invited or rather thrust him into a bed of concubinage ; which is unto him in all points as it were a lawful marriage . but ly . this respondent having made two such marriages , and yet neither of them of choice as to the manner , but both of them of a sort of necessity , deficient of performance according to the good laws of this land , humble craves of the good reader his patience , to hear out the justification of his innocency in the last as well as in the first : and lest he may seem in the eyes of ignorant and scornful men more guilty of rashness and incontinence , than of honesty and innocency ; he humbly prays it may be considered in the first place , how apt a thing it is that many innocent and holy doctrines may be generally cry'd down as gross errours , which are quite otherwise ? as for instance in the case of priests marriage , which is a matter wherein the church is now perfectly satisfied , that it is both an honourable and a truly holy practice ; and yet it cannot be forgotten , how it was cry'd down in our grand-fathers days as a most pernicious , hellish , and an abominable sin. and as it was with priests marriage , i am of opinion we may find some other maters still spoken against , that may upon serious consideration be found as innocent and holy as that is at this day . and among other things i propose a lawful concubinage , as in some cases it may be required : and to this purpose it is written in the new-testament , heb. . . that marriage is honourable in all , and the bed undefiled : but whoremongers and adulterers god will judge . hence it follows without dispute , that marriage in its self is an honourable state , and that the bed undefiled is so too , and that in all things as in the case of marriage : but then upon inquiry , whether in this text , by the bed undefiled , is to be understood the self same thing with the married bed , or some other bed plainly different and distinct therefrom , is a mater disputable still . and now the words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ and ] or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as it is in the original , is a particle copulative , which couples words and sentences together ; and these words and sentences ought properly in such a case of coupling together to be of a diverse and dictinct signification ; for that which is the same thing in sence with what went before , needs no bond of copulation , being naturally joined therewith : for in such a sense had this learned author intended by these words one and the same thing , he would have written saying , marriage ( being ) a bed undefiled , or ( which is ) or ( if ) a bed undefiled is honourable ; then had it been a plain case what he meant by his words : but as the words run in the text , marriage ( and ) the bed undefiled . this bed undefiled according to plain grammatical construction , must be aptly significant of some certain bed distinct from the marriage bed ; or at least the words must start a riddle hard to be understood : 't is true indeed , that the word ( and ) is sometimes read as a particle exegetical ; as in ephes. . . it is written , blessed be god and the father of our lord jesus christ ; which sentence by the same author is written , cor. . . blessed be god even the father , &c. in which places the words god , and father of jesus christ , are plainly significant of the same person , ' yet coupled together exegetically by the particle ( and ) but that in this case , the word ( and ) couples not persons , but relations together ; for what god is in himself unto all the world , is a distinct thing unto what he is unto christ alone ; and in this case the word ( and ) is used as it were not properly in its own natural sense , but is taken for the word ( even ) as the author explains himself in another place , speaking to the same purpose ; but in this case the words appear not in the same livery ; for shall we read the words thus , marriage even the bed undefiled is honourable , yet still there will be a riddle in the case , as to the authors meaning ; for why did he make account that marriage could not be honourable , unless it were a bed undefiled ? no , that could not be , for marriage of its self is an honourable state in all cases and persons , whether it be holy or prophane , whether it be among jews , christians , or pagans ; and therefore there needs not these words , [ even ] the bed undefiled , or [ being ] or [ that is to say , ] the bed , &c. and again , would we read the words thus ; then would it follow that all marriages are even a bed undefiled , which is not so : for that there are many very prophane and unclean marriages made , whence follows therefore of necessity , that this learned and holy author does in this place clearly treat of a bed undefiled , as a bed plainly different and distinct from the marriage bed , or of some bed out of marriage , that may be truly stiled a lawful and undefiled bed. and as so he seems to comprehend all those cases of difficient marriages , between the year , and , in the act of indemnity aforesaid , intimating that in those cases where the lawful ceremonies of marriage could not aptly be had ; yet those beds being honestly managed , and undefiled , were therefore beds in themselves lawful and honourable , if no such thing as the act of indemnity had come forth to confirm them : and thus by the same rule and reason , this respondent pleads that his present beding with the said mary tomkins is a bed undefiled , and therefore lawful and honourable , even as the marriage bed , being made at a time when lawful marriage could not conveniently be had ; for he having taken into his bed an honest woman and no whore , and this without offence to god or to any man breathing , and not for satisfaction of unclean lust , but purely and truely to avoid fornication , and to procure of her body an holy seed to be educated in the nurture of the lord , in godliness and honesty , and true religion : and the children he hath by her do witness as much . but may not the true and proper grammatical construction of the word be testimony sufficient of the true and proper meaning of the text , and of the holy author thereon . let us next examine the custom and practices of the persons concerned in the words , which must be a certain exposition what this author meant by the bed undefiled he wrote of . now the author of this epistle to the hebrews , is commonly supposed to be st. paul ; some think it was rather st. luke , and others say it was st. barnabas : this respondent is able to make appear that it was st. barnabas ; but these things need not here to be debated . that it was one of the three is mostly agreed , and who ever it was , besure he was a christian jew ; and the hebrews unto whom the epistle was directed were also christian jews , which things must unavoidably be allowed to be true ; and if so , then this bed undefiled must be necessarily understood as it was commonly esteemed among the jews ; for had their customs and practices been reprovable , this holy author would have corrected them ; but as he stiles this bed undefiled , as an honourable state , even in the case of marriage : so a bed undefiled according the use and custom of the jews at the time of this epistle written , is to be an infalliable testimony in what sense these words are to be understood ; and to this purpose we are to enquire into the custom of the jews , first before , and ly after christianity bore date : now before christianity it plainly appears , that the jews had their marriage beds . and there was always allowed among the ancient hebrews also a bed of concubinage , which was also held to be in it self a bed undefiled and honourable , and a lawful custom ; and at this rate the patriarch abraham , a man without exception for holiness and honesty , had his married wife whose name was sarah ; and besides that wife he had his concubines hagar and katurah in his waves life time , by both which he had issue , and that of a bed indefiled , and not at all tainted with the stains of adultery or fornication : for had not his son isaac been born of sarah his wife , his son ishmael by his bond maid had been his true and lawful heir , gen. . . which could not have been had he been born a bastard , as now a days such a child is reputed to be : but god almighty so fully attested the legitimacy of ishmael's birth , by the blessing he gave him , as of a well born child , v. . does god usually give his blessing to bastards , who are utterly barr'd thereof unto the tenth generation ? deut. . . after the same manner also king david had michal his married wife ; and she dead , he married bathsheba his second wife ; and besides these wives he had several other women who were called side wives , of whom he had lawful issue . and yet these secundary and inferiour wives being none of them endowed were but meer concubines ; and yet those concubines were so far from being reputed whores or unfaithful women , that god almighty gave testimony to the contrary by stiling them concubines of god's own allowance , or proper gift , sam. . . does god patronise adultery or fornication by allowing of such a conoubinage to be a lawful and undefiled bed ? surely no ; what god allowes of therefore is no sin. king solomon had seven hundred wives , who were all kings daughters ; and yet by them all had no male-child : for his true and lawful heir was rehoboam his son , by naamah an ammonite his concubine , who was born before marriage and before he was king : and solomon dead , this son of a concubine born before marriage , without contradiction , was accepted of by god and man as solomon's true lawful and proper heir , notwithstanding that he had daughters by his wife or wives , and had nathan his royal brother , who or some of his issue were then living . hosea the prophet had also a married wife , whose name was gomer , and she yet living , by a special command from god , this prophet did yet love another woman whom he married not , but took her unto him for a term of years , months and days , and 〈◊〉 with her as his 〈◊〉 , having agreed with her for the term , to be a true wife unto him at a certain price of reward : and yet this was certainly a bed undefiled , obteined by a special appointment of the lord , hos. . , , , &c. whence follows that in the church of the jews before christ , there was a custom and practice of an honest sort of concubinage allowed by god's word , as an undefiled and honourable bed which cannot by any means be denied ; tho' some divines of good reputation are not willing to allow these things as well done . but after christianity came in , and the hebrew church became christian , it remains yet to be debated whether this custom and practice continued also into christ's time in full force and power as before , yea or not ? unto which question this respondent says , he humbly conceives it does continue . for first he reckons that all lawful customes and practices once allowed of by god's , word and examples of holy men , are not to cease until countermanded , or otherwise ordered , repealed , or abrogated by as good authority of god's word and good men , as at first gave them a being in the church . and now to testify that there never was any such repeal or abrogation of those ancient customs and practices allowed before christianty ; this testimony of the author to the hebrews is mine evidence : for the bed undefiled and honourable which he treats of , being certainly to be understood of the ancient customs and practices of the said hebrews , unto whom he writes , which being no where in god's word limited , repealed , or abrogated , or so much as once spoken against ; he stiles at the instant time of his epistle written to be a bed undefiled and honourable . true it is indeed that those hebrew customes do proceed farther than to a bare case of necessity , which this respondent is not concerned to justify or to meddle with , excepting only thus far , that if ancient concubinage be justifiable at large , how much more is it clearly justifiable a concubinage in a case of necessity only . and thus far this author to the hebrews does plainly justify , that an honest woman taken into bed purely and truly to avoid fornication , and for propagating of an holy seed , issue or offspring , tho out of marriage in a case of necessity , may be a bed undefilled , lawful , virtuous and honourable , and quit and clear of all adultery and fornication , notwithstanding any papal decrees , canon laws or statutes of any realm to the contrary whatsoever ; and such saith this respondent is the true state of his case . but yet to add still more light unto the sense of this holy author to the hebrews , this respondent brings in the evidence of the sacred birth of the ever blessed our lord jesus christ for confirmation : dareth any soul upon earth be so impudent as to defame the conception and birth of that most holy god man , who was born without sin , by saying that they were stained with fornication or incontinency , because performed out of marriage ; and yet how shall any man who stubbornly persists to deny all lawful concubinage , make out such his sentiments without reflecting upon our saviours conception and birth ? will such a man think to be excused by alleging that this was an extraordinry work of god ? this answer will stain his lips more and more instead of wiping his mouth ; for does god almighty ever do any thing either ordinarily or extraordinarily which he forbids us to do ? should god himself do that thing which in us is called adultery or fornication , or any other sin , he would cease to be god ; for fornication in its self is an unclean thing , and adultery worse ; and should god do one or the other , it would be doing an unclean thing , and to justify thatgod can do such a thing is blasphemy ; and to say that a bed out of marriage cannot be an undefiled , lawful and honourable bed is almost as bad : let therefore those wise and good men who have inconsideratly condemned the ancient holy patriarchs for their practices of concubinage , as guilty of sins which god winked at in those days , bethink themselves anew , and perhaps they may be of another mind . conclude we therefore that what god almighty hath caused to come to pass , was in it self an honourable , lawfull and holy thing ; and what god accounts in its self to be good , neither pope nor parliament can make evil ; what god hath proclaimed lawful and legitimate , it 's past man's power and authority to make illegitimate or a bastard seed . but this respondent stops not here , for there is another material case , testifyed by our saviour himself in the new testament , of a bed undefiled out of marriage ; and this was the case of the woman of samaria , ( joh , , , &c. ) of whom our saviour well knowing that she lived as a wife with a man who was not her husband , and therefore in plain terms was his concubine ; yet unto this woman in the very state , without any condition made in the case of discontinuing her course of life , and without any the least reproof for the manner of life she lived : our saviour freely tendered her the water of life , or the thing signifyed by baptisme , saying unto her positively , that had she known who he was she would have asked , and he would have given her of the water of life ; and after this he did tell her who and what he was ; and she hearing did believe what he said , and did ask for the water of life ; and by consequence she had it : and our saviour bad call her husband , whose concbuine she was , and she left her water-pot and went to call him ; and as it shall seem she brought him and many more neighbours with him , and he and thy were all or most of them partakers of the same blessing , as by the effect appears . now saith this respondent , had this state of concubinage been an unclean thing , or an incontinent course of life , as now a days it is reputed ; this concubine and her man that kept her , could not aptly have believed in christ , and been partakers of the holy ghost ; as it appears they did , and were a concubine , and yet endued with the holy ghost ; a concubine keeper and yet sent for to partake of the water of life , and yet neither he nor she at all reproved for the course of life they lived in , saying , sin no more , as our saviour in sinful cases was always wont to say ( as joh. . . and ch. . . ) say we then , and let all candid hearted good men say with us , that the state of concubinage in some cases at least , is an honest , a believing , and a saving state of life . and now having shewn those two sorts of beds which our authour to the hebrews commends as honourable ; next i come to treat of those he teaches to shun as dammable , and those are whormongers , and adulterers , whom god will judge . the whoremonger is such a wretch , who tho allowed to marry , or to keep his concubine , that is a woman proper to himself , provided he do not multiply concubines , nor keep any woman unlawfully compassed unto any man's wrong , or to that womans wrong , and useth her not meerly for his lust , in wantonness , or uncleanness , but our of a pure desire of an holy seed by her . yet not contented with that lawful liberty of god allowed , chooseth rather to spend the holy seed of mankind upon common women , who sell their bodies to the use of every commer : and thus exposeth his seed to be murdered in the body , as whores use to do by their conceptions , or to become a bastard brood , of whom no man knows the true father . and therefore the mother of such is to be burned , but the father god will judge . this is a crying sin which god hates . and yet at rome , and in some reformed states , such whores are allowed and encouraged , while an honest concubinage is esteemed the worst of whoredom . the second foul crime is adultery , wherein a wicked man conceives more pleasure in another man's wife , then in an honest woman . together with this sin are companions , the sin of sodomy or uncleanness with mankind , the sin of buggery or uncleanness with beasts , the sin of incest , the sin of lying with a woman during her uncleanness , and of giving seed to moloch . levit. . all these are great abominations , which defile the land. and now having done with the testimony of holy writ , come we lastly to the practise of the primitive times , next after the apostolical age : wherein we find that it was not , as it is now , holden in those days such an heinous crime , to have children born out of marriage , especially in case wherein marriage could not aptly be had . the first and most antient laws or canons we have of those days are those stiled the canons of the apostles . wherein it is noted that if a man go in unto a woman who is a virgin , and do in any wise deflour her , be she poor or rich , that man is either to make her his wife , or else he is to have no wife so long as she lives . this was the th of those canons : and it was confirmed for law at the th general council holden at constantinople . now this canon agrees nearly with the sence of holy writ . in exod. . , . and shewes that in those times marriages were ordered mostly according to holy writ : and concubinage was in use as in the antient jewish church . for about the year of christ , constantius chlorus had to wife helena the mother of constantine the great , and in her life time took into his bed theodora the daughter of maximian , by whom he had sons called constantius and anniballinus , and constantia his daughter . now these three according to the popes laws , and our present laws , were esteemed base born : but in those days the father of the church received them becoming christians , into places of authority , never once scrupling that they were base born . constantine also himself , the first christian emperour , had to wife minervina his lawful wife , by whom he had issue crispus caesar his first born son ; and also by fausta his concubine he had his sons constantine , constantinus , and constans ; which all three lived to be christian emperours , and yet were never any of them once questioned by any of the bishops of those days , for base born or bastard children . also valentinian , a very commendable and orthodox christian emperour , had severa his lawful wife by whom he had issue , gratianus his eldest son ; and justina his concubine , by whom he had issue , valentinian his younger son. him gratinus succeeding dyed without issue , and valintinian son of the concubine was called unto the throne , and was crowned by st. ambrosius , the godly and good bishop of millaine . and yet neither st. ambrose , nor st. augustine , nor any of the bishops of that age did ever question the emperour valantinian the father for keeping a concubine in his wives life time , nor valentinian the son for being base born , and therefore unfit to reign , because born a bastard . for had the bishop once questioned the mater . theodosius the great , then reigning at constantinople , could , and would have put him down , upon a word speaking of st. ambrose . true it is indeed , that in the heat of zeal by good men in the primitive times , virginity was buoyed up a great rate ; in pursuit of which , many holy church customs became neglected , and in an heat were decryed . and hence priests marriage began to be in disgrace , and at length was utterly thrust out ; and hence concubinage also was spoken against . but this respondent has not read of any process against concubinage as a criminal thing , until the papacy of rome being crowned heads , and became rampant , began to tyrannise at list . and the first that this respondent found upon record , was the case of lotharius king of north-france , who having a wife , kept a concubine in the ix century , and was first admonished , and then excommunicated by pope hadrian the ii. unto the ruin of that poor prince . and since this beginning , the proud popes have made decrees and canons as best served their own avarice , even as they listed ; and darkned the brightness of the holy gospel , out of all mens light in a manner ; insomuch as in the days of henry the viii the king , lords , and commons assembled in parliament unanimously complained of the popish encroachments in the case of marriage , brought in for filthy luker sake , which the church-men reapt thereby ; by mean whereof so many ways were invented for bastardising of children , that without a license of marriage from rome , it was a difficult thing for a person of any quality to have a lawful born heir . whence in the xxxii year of henry viii . chap. . a statute past , that all marriages shall be lawful which are not in holy-writ forbidden : and in that statute the beding of women was stilled the essence of consummation of marriages : see we then whence came up this custom of making base born children contrary to god's word ; not out of holy-writ , nor lawful church-canons , but out of the dregs and corrupt laws of the worst of popish times . and yet since that statute , we are not yet come to rights , nor cleared enough of those old popish corruptions . and this respondent humbly conceives , with submission to the most pious and learned states-men of those realms that were maters well weighed , the doctrine of a reformed concubinage , as it was used of old by the holy and good patriarch's , might be found to be of sacred and holy use , to prevent the ruin of royal , noble , and generous families , many of which have formerly ship-wrackt for want of a convenient remedy ; and besides , it would prove an honest help to destroy those foul and crying sins of whoredom and adultery , which ruins kingdoms as well as families . had it not been for this help of concubinage , king solomon had utterly failed of that royal race , whence our lord and blessed saviour jesus christ lineally descended . consider we how many kingdoms have been utterly ruined for want of an honest concubinage to supply the defects of barren and unhappy marriages . had alexander scot used a concubine , an heir of his body might have prevented those dreadful wars which followed between the families of bruce and baylid for compassing that crown . and had richard the iid of england been allowed an heir by a concubine , the wars of york and lancaster had never harrassed this kingdom as they did ; which at last was not ended but by a son sprung from a bed of concubinage : but happy was that concubinage of robert the ii of scotland , which advised to by a parliament of that nation . gave birth to that family of the stuarts , which have made both england and scotland exceeding happy . and being grafted into the family of the welch te●ther● ther 's of the royal blood of england , another family sprung from a bed of concubinage , are to this day reigning over both kingdoms . which if so , let no man by corrupt and unlawful comstoms go about to stain the legitimacy of such a race of princes , as both england and scotland have just cause to remember , with praise and thanksgiving to god , and especially for charles the first of blessed and never dying memory , the gracious gift of god , for whose blessed sake good things may justly be expected in time , both unto his royal race , and these his kingdoms . and thus much may serve in vindication of this respondent , or bedding with mary tomkins , and in answer to her iid , article . the third saith . iii. item . that the said john butler after having lived with the said mary tomkins in the foul crime of adultery , or incontinency in holland , or some other part beyond the seas , as in the present article is set forth , he the said john butler with the said mary tomkins , returned into england , and bought or took a house at hammersmith , in the county of mids . where they continued to live in an adulterous , incontinant manner for many years together ; and do still live and cohabit together as man and wife , and she the said mary hath had four other base children born of her body , and begotten by the said john butler one of which children is since dead , but the other three are still living , and are called by the name of john , george , and butler , and for as and the natural children of the said mary tomkins , begotten by the said john butler , they were and are commonly accounted , reputed and taken , and therefore as also of the said john butler and mary tomkins , there living in adulterous and incontinent manner together in hammersmith aforesaid , there was and is a publick and notorious ponit tamen de quolibet alio temporis spa . & numero liberor . & ponit ut supra . such is the third article of her label , which is forestalled by the answer to the second , saving that this respondent saith , he hath lived sometimes in hammersmith , in good reputation with all good people in the parish ; who he supposes cannot give credit to the lies and scandals of this article : and that she said mary tomkins doth cohabit with him there in good reputation , by the name of butler . iv. item , that the said john butler hath lately , to wit. withlast past turned the said martha butler his wife out of doors , and left her destitute of necessaries , whereby to support and maintain her self . hocque fuit & est verum , &c , & ponit ut supra . such is her iv article ; unto which this respondent saith , it is a meer forgery of lies , he having no such wife as martha butler ? once he had such a woman his wife , whom he never turn'd out of doors ; but she lived with him while she would , and left him of her self , but lived upon his estate , eat and drank at his charge , and lived upon his means , and does so to this day , and was never denied support and maintenance , would she come where t is to be had . v. item . that the said john butler hath an estate to the value of l. or at least l. per ann . hocque , &c. ponit tamen , &c. ponit ut supra . to which this respondent answers , that once he had such an estate , but by the ill dealings of the said complainant martha , and her sons by confederacy with nathaniel 〈◊〉 the mortgagee he is deprived at present of his whole estate by illegal and evil arts , and this complainant and her sons are in possesson thereof . vi. item . quod praefat . johanes butler suit & est paroch . de hammersmith in com. mids . ac ratione literarum requi● , ab ordinario loc●prius obtent . jurisdict . ●ujus cur● notor . subditus & subject , & ponit ut supra . hic respondes de his nil intelligit . vii . item . quod de & super premissis , &c. item . quod praemissa , &c. negat respondens . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e simply , adultery , and malitious desertion , do dissolve marriage . either of them do make a divorce . divorce is a lawful dissolution of the bonds of marriage . the causes of it are two only ; adultery and desertion . that is a malicious departure of one party from the other , either of hatred to religion , or out of levity or impatience of the restraints of marriage , or of any other unlawful cause ; refusing to perform marriage duties . in adultery the innocent husband dismisses his adulterate wife . but in desertion the innocent husband is passive , being deserted of his wife who leaves his bed . in the process , if no reconciliation be made before , the innocent ought not to be compelled to receive the guilty . but having lived honestly , the judge ought to pronounce him quit of the first marriage , with free liberty to marry again . we must shew the certain cause of divorce by means wherof with a safe and quiet conscience a man may marry again ; of this kind are two , divorce of adultry and desertion . christ does not say he who is deserted of his wife and marries again committs adultry . but he who dismisses his wife does so ; for she unfaithfully divorceth her self , and therefore deserves no more faith from her innocent husband . st. ambrose is positive , that who ever relinquisheth her husband , has utterly dissolved the bonds of matrimony , & that the relinquished sins not in marrying another . a perfect marriage may be two ways dissolved . i when by law it is in its self null or declared so to be . ii. when for lawful causes it is made null . our saviour's sense in mat. . , . with st. paul in cor. . , may be thus reconciled . christ treateth of one unjustly dismissing his wife , according to the question asked . st. paul teacheth of one injustly dismissed of his wife , in answer to the question ask't him in case of an infidel wife deserting : whether a believing husband be so strictly tied up , that he cannot marry another wife ? to which he answer's , that after all lawful means used to reclaim her , he may marry another wife . and the same learned author says , that by an infidel , st. paul means every one who is a malicious and cause less desertrice ; according to st. pauls sence in tim. . . and he farther saith , that if the magistrate neglect his office ; the innocent party is free to marry another woman without his sentence , and to reject his infidel wife , as freely as he may reject an haeretick after once and twice admonition . tit. . . this author says , that an affected voluntary absence of either party is to be taken for a malicious desertion . and that the unbeliever deserting , does absolutely dissolve the bonds of marriage . this learned author shews , that the law of the new testament takes place before all canon and civil laws , and that by authority of the new testament without doubt . after desertion the deserted is so free from the marriage with the desertrice , that he may take another wife . the tryal and condemnation of mervin, lord audley earl of castle-haven at westminster, april the th . for abetting a rape upon his countess, committing sodomy with his servants, and commanding and countenancing the debauching his daughter. with the learned speeches of the lord high-steward, the arguments of the king's-councel upon that occasion, and the lord audley's speech at the place of execution. castlehaven, mervyn touchet, earl of, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and condemnation of mervin, lord audley earl of castle-haven at westminster, april the th . for abetting a rape upon his countess, committing sodomy with his servants, and commanding and countenancing the debauching his daughter. with the learned speeches of the lord high-steward, the arguments of the king's-councel upon that occasion, and the lord audley's speech at the place of execution. castlehaven, mervyn touchet, earl of, ?- . [ ], , [ ] p. [s.n.], london : printed in the year, . gathered in 's. reproduction of the original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng castlehaven, mervyn touchet, -- earl of, ?- -- early works to . trials (sodomy) -- england -- early works to . trials (rape) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - taryn hakala sampled and proofread - taryn hakala text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal and condemnation of mervin , lord audley earl of castle-haven . at westminster , april the th . for abetting a rape upon his countess , committing sodomy with his servants , and commanding and countenancing the debauching his daughter . with the learned speeches of the lord high-steward , the arguments of the king's-councel upon that occasion , and the lord audley's speech at the place of execution . london , printed in the year , . the preface . 't is no less deplorable than wonderful ▪ that in this nation where the purest religion is profess'd , and where vice and immorality are punish'd by severe laws , wickedness should ascend to such a height , as equals ▪ if not exceeds , all the barbarous regions of the earth . time was , when gross enormities in this island , like batts and owls were obscur'd by night and darkness , and those that committed them were asham'd to own their crimes , or suffer their examples to infect the open air. they were contented to go to hell alone , without usurping the office of belzebub , or loading their souls with the guilt of tempting their incautious brethren ; but now the most scandalous , inhuman , unnatural , and beastly offences , stalk abroad at noon day , and he thinks himself a puny in wickedness , and scarce worth the damning , that can't boast of numbers of souls that he has lead to destruction . ravishing women , was a crime rarely heard of among our ancestors , and though no age has been so happy ▪ but it has produced some monsters in morality , as well as nature ; yet now this sin is grown so common , that scarce a sessions passes , wherein there is not one or more convicted of rape , and that in the most scandalous manner too , upon the bodies of meer children . nay , the debauches of this age have found out another way of ravishing women , and that is , of their honours and reputations ; for where the villains have impudently assaulted the chastity of vertuous women , and have encountred nothing but scorns , or the bastinado from a foot-man ; there they 'll be sure to fix a scandal , and boast of the favours they ne'er received . nay , a fellow that has neither sence in his head , money in pocket , nor a tatter to his back , but what a louse wou'd break its neck from , shall dignifie himself gallant to persons of the best quality , that ne'er could reach above the rank of a dung-hill-raker ▪ another abomination that shocks our natures , and puts our modesty to the blush , to see it so commonly perpetrated , is the devillish and unnatural sin of buggery . a crime that sinks a man below the basest epithet , is so foul it admits of no aggravation , and cannot be express'd in its horror , but by the doleful shrikes and groans of the damned . a sin that caus'd god almighty pluere gehennam de coelo , to rain down hell-fire upon sodom and gomorrah , and turn a fruitful and pleasant country , into utter barrenness and desolation . this sin being now translated from the sadomitical original , or from the turkish and italian copies into english ; not only in the infamous example of that monster ri — by , and other notorious sodomites ; but he●ring also that there is at this time several taken up at windsor , and others of the same gang now committed to newgate , who were ingag'd in a more than beast-like confederacy among themselves , for exercising this unnatural offence : i thought i could not more oblige the publick , than ( having this tryal lying by me in an old manuscript which was never yet printed , ) to publish it at this juncture , that by reading the sin , so tragically delineated in its horrid shape , and ugly visage , by the grave and learned sages of the law , and in the death of a noble peer , other men might be terrify'd , and scar'd from those sins that are attended with nothing but infamy and death in this world , and eternal damnation in the next . and , now , seeing i have some paper left , give me leave to tell the miscreants of our unhappy days , that the preceding sins of sodom , which spaun'd the unnatural sin of buggery , were the same that now reign among our english debauche's , and as they would avoid the effects , so they ought to be careful in removing the cause , or without the help of prophecy , 't is easie to foretel their r●ine . pride , luxury , and irreligion , were the infernal parents of sodomy , and that of their destruction : and he must have neither eyes , nor ears , that knows not how egregiously the same vices reign amongst us also . pride is in its achme , and nothing so much admir'd as ease and softness , courtship , address , and entertainment , and that delicata insania , effeminate madness , had banish'd all manly vertues . instead of those noble characters of vertue , wisdom , and courage , the great things in vogue , and the only obtaining bonne graces , are , that the fop eats and drinks nicely , manages his whore , his snuff-box , his wigg , his comb and glass discreetly , mouths his oaths finely , and handles his knife and fork to admiration ! but the great qualification they boast of , and which wholly imploys our modern wits , is in belching out blasphemy against the god that made them , and throwing bitter scoffs and prophane jests upon religion ; and having no other way to demonstrate their courage , they shew it in this : that they dare venture to be damn'd to be accounted contemptibly witty. but if they are not already so far sunk into beast , as they have lost the benefit of thinking , i wou'd faign stop their career by a few modest questions , viz. whether they can the better indure eternal torment , because they don't believe them ? or , whether they can extinguish the flames of hell , by going merily and laughing thither ? you all know that ri — by 's other heinous crimes was accompanied with horrid blasphemy . see your faces in his glass at the bar , on the pillory , and the brink of hell , and if that will neither shame nor fright you ; let me beg the favour of you to leave the kingdom , for that will be the best office you ever did , or can do for england , and the obligation shall be gratefully acknowledg'd by gentlemen , ( if it ben't a shame to stile you so ; ) your humble servant , the prefacer . the tryal and condemnation of mervin touchet , lord audley , earl of castle-haven , &c. on monday the th of april , in the year of our lord . about the hour of ten in the morning , the lord-keeper coventry , being by special commission constituted lord high-steward of england , with twenty six of the nobility came into westminster-hall , attended by an herald , and six sergeants at arms ; and the lord high-steward being sat in a chair of state , and the peers on each side of a table cover'd with green velvet , proclamation was made for silence . then sir thomas fanshaw clerk of the crown , read the commission , and the usher of the black rod kneeling before the lord high-steward presented his lordship with a white rod ; after which a second proclamation was made , commanding all persons to keep to silence , and the lord high-steward having desir'd the peers of the realm and the privy counsellers to be covered , the lords were call'd by their names , as followeth , earl of po●●land lord treasurer . earl of dorset and middlesex lord chambl . earl of manchester lord privy seal . earl of arundel lord marshal . earl of pembroke . earl of kent . earl of essex . earl of warwick . earl of carlisle . earl of bedford . earl of worcester . earl of derby . earl of leicester . earl of salisbury . earl of holland . lord viscount conway . lord visc . wimbleton . lord visc . wentworth . lord visc . dorchester . lord howard . lord peircy . lord strange . lord clifford . lord north. lord peeters . lord goring . judges assisting at this tryal . sir nicholas hyde , lord chief justice of england , sir thomas littleton , lord chief justice of the common pleas , sir humphrey davenport , lord chief baron , mr. justice jones , mr. justice whitlock , mr. justice crook , mr. baron denham . the king 's learned counsel . mr. sergeant crew , mr. attorney general , mr. sollicitor general , sir john finch , sir thomas fanshaw clerk of the crown , mr. keeling , with other officers and attendants . the lords having answer'd to their names , the lieutenant of the tower was requir'd to bring forth his prisoner , who was then in the treasury chamber , and from thence was guarded into the court by the warders of the tower , and being put into a place inclos'd for that purpose , cover'd with blew bays , and the lieutenant of the tower into another place adjoyning to it ; the prisoner having made his complement to the lord high-steward , and the rest of the noble lords that were to try him , the lord high-steward spake to him in these words . my lord , the king's majesty being inform'd by common fame , and the verdict of divers gentlemen of quality in the country where you ●ive ▪ that you stand impeach'd of several great and heinous crimes , that the truth of the charge may be known , he has this day brought you to your tryal , therein imitating the almighty in the xviiith of genesis , who came down to see if the sins of the people were as notorious as the cry that was about them ; and truly the kings of the earth , can have no better example than what has been given them by the great and all wise king of heaven ; and therefore our sovereign who is god's vicegerent upon earth , has now brought you to justice , and desires that all proceedings should be carried on with as much equality as the rules of equity and justice themselves have prescribed . and because ( my lords ) the crimes that will now be brought before you , are of such a horrid nature , that may justly raise in some of your lordships a detestation , and in others pity and compassion . i advise you to lay aside both these considerations , and let your reasons and consciences sway your judgments , and your heads direct your hearts . my lord audley , i question not but you are really satisfied ( as well as i am my self ) that the noble peers here assembled , have as much justice in their hearts as noble blood in their veins , and since such as they are to try you , if you are conscious of your own innocency , speak without fear ; for if you are falsely accused , those that do it shall not escape an exemplary punishment ; but if you know your self guilty , i advise you to give honour to god and the king , by confessing your faults , for neither vain confidence nor subtlety can obscure or prevail against the truth ; and if that touches your heart , your own conscience will be a thousand witnesses against you , and god also who is greater than them all . persist not therefore in an obstinate denial of the truth , for if you do , god will put it into 'th hearts of these noble lords to find it out , and to do what is just in relation to the punishment of the crime . consider of it , and the lord direct you . lord audley . my lord , i have been six months a prisoner , under a close confinement , without the advice of friends or counsel , and long imprisonment has reduced me into a very weak condition . when i was in my best state of health my voice was very low , and therefore i desire your lordships will be pleas'd to allow me the liberty of counsel to speak for me . lord high-steward . your long imprisonment has been a singular favour to you . you have had more time than ever any peer had that was brought to this bar. however , you shall ask nothing which the law can give you , but it shall be freely granted to you , and therefore i will propound your request to the judges , and leave them to give you satisfaction in it . my lords the judges . will the law allow us to give my lord audley the liberty of counsel to speak for him ? i shall be glad to have your opinions in it . lord chief justice hyde . in criminal causes counsel cannot be allowed in matters of fact ▪ in matters of law it may . lord chief baron . the law is express in this case , and counsel ought not to be granted . lord high-steward . read the indictment . clerk of the crown . mervin lord audley , thou art here indicted , &c. for that thou and gyles broadway , gen. both of fountain gifford , in the county of wilts , not having the fear of god before your eyes , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , did on the twentieth day of june in the sixth year of the reign of our sovereign lord charles , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france , and ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c. at fountain gyfford aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , did , by force and arms , &c. in and upon ann lady audley , then being in the peace of god and our sovereign lord the king , make an assault ; and the aforesaid gyles broadway , the aforesaid ann lady audley , by force and arms against the will of the said ann , then and there did violently , and feloniously ravish , and the said ann then and there against her will did carnally know against the peace of our sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the statute in that case made and provided ; what sayest thou mervyn lord audley , art thou guilty of the rape of which thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? lord audley . not guilty . clerk of the crown . how will you be tryed ? lord audley . by god and my peers . then the clerk of the crown read another indictment against the lord audley to this effect , viz. that he mervin lord audley , not having god before his eyes , nor respecting the order of nature , but moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the first of june in the sixth year of our sovereign lord charles , &c. at fountain gifford , in the said county of wilts , in the mansion house of the said lord audley , did there by force of arms upon one florentius fitz patrick , wickedly , devilishly , feloniously , and contrary to nature , exercise venery , and the said florentius fitz patrick , then and there did carnally know , and that detestable , and abominable , sodomitical sin called buggery , ( not to be named among christians , ) then and there with the said florentius fitz patrick , devilishly , feloniously , and contrary to nature did commit and perpetrate , to the great displeasure of almighty god and disgrace of all mankind , and contrary to the peace of our said sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the statute in this case made and provided , &c. the like indictment for the same offence , committed with the same person on the tenth of june the same year , at new sarum , in the mansion house of the lord audley , was also prefer'd , but not read against him . all which bills were found against the prisoner , in a court held by special commission ( granted for that purpose , ) at new sarum , before edward georges , sir thomas richardson , lord chief justice of the king's-bench , sir nicholas hyde lord chief justice of the common-pleas , sir john denham , one of the barons of the exchequer , sir edward hungerford , sir walter vaughan , sir lawrence hyde , sir thomas fanshaw , to them , or any three or more of them , to inquire into the matters of fact as is before alledged . to all which indictments the lord audley having pleaded not guilty , and put himself upon his tryal ; the lord high-steward deliver'd himself to the lords as followeth . my lords , the prisoner is indicted for rape and sodomy , by two indictments , he has pleaded not guilty ; and 't is my duty to charge your lordships with the tryal of it , and yours to judge of it . the matters of fact are to be prov'd by evidence , and your lordships are to balance it . i have already observed to you , that probably this cause may move some of you into pity , and others into detestation ; but neither of these ought to be thrown into balance , since a grain on either side may sway the scales ; therefore let reason rule your affections , and your heads govern your hearts ; hear diligently , weigh matters equally , and then the scale will lean on the right side . the judges will assist your lordships in point of law , and therefore if any doubt ariseth among you , you 'll propound it to me , and i to them . in these proceedings your lordships are not upon your corporal oaths , for the law presumes you of such honour and integrity , that you will act as justly without an oath , as others under that obligation ; and for the same reason the law admits of no challenges . god direct you to do it . his lordship having concluded , the king's attorney general opened the indictment in the following words . may it please your grace my lord high steward ; here are two indictments against mervyn lord audley , the first is for rape , and the second is for sodomy ; the prisoner is honourable , the crimes of which he stands indicted are foul and dishonourable , and if they should be prov'd true , i dare be bold to say , that never poet invented , nor historian related any thing so odious , inhuman , and abominable . suetonius has with horror display'd the vices of some heathen emperors , that having ingross'd an absolute power , were fearless of punishment , and shameless in committing abominable enormites ; yet no author has produc'd a man that ever equal'd , or came near the crimes that this lord is accus'd of . this is a crime , to the honour of our nation be it spoken , that is scarcely heard of in an age , and whenever it happens calls aloud for timely punishment , that the infection spread no farther , nor provoke divine vengeance to pour down the vials of his wrath upon the whole kingdom . i can speak it with great satisfaction , that in all king james's reign , and from his majesties first accession to the crown , till now , i never heard the like occasion to speak against a peer of the realm ; and as god knows i do it now with abundance of regret , so i hope i shall never have the like occasion to do it any more . his majesty who is your pattern of vertue , not only as a king , but in his personal capacity , and of whom it is hard to say , whether he excels most in justice , or mercy , ( tho' i am inclin'd to believe 't is in his mercy ) would have my lord audley , the prisoner at the bar , heard with as much favour as a crime of that horrid nature will allow . when the notice of this crime came first to his majesty's knowledge , he was amazed , and gave strick command that the truth might appear , and his throne and people might be cleard from the guilt of such abominable impieties ; therefore the prisoner was indicted according to law in his own country , and by gentlemen of known worth and integrity ; billa vera being found against him , he is brought to this bar to be tryed by these honourable lords his peers ; of whose wisdom and justice there can be no question , and therefore we may expect the event accordingly : first i shall begin with the rape . now rape is defin'd to be an unlawful carnal knowledge , and abuse of a woman by force against her will. this was felony by the common law , and tho' the statute of westminster , . cap. . lessen'd it into a misdemeanor , yet it was soon after . ed. . c. . made a capital offence without clergy , agreeable to the law of the almighty legislator , deut. . and gen. . and was accounted by our fore-fathers , so detestable and abominable a crime , bracton , l. . p. , that those who were guilty of it , were punish'd with the loss of their eyes , and their privy members , that they might at once be deprived of the wicked inlets , and instruments of their base and unlawful lusts ; but i shall not tyre your lordships patience with citing authorities , nor inlarging upon the hainousness of an offence that admits of no aggravation , and therefore shall only mention three or four rules in law , relating to the present case ; the truth of which i submit to the opinions of my lords the judges . first , when any offence is felony , either by the statute , or common law , all accessaries before and after , are incidently included , so that if any be aiding , assisting , or abettiag any to do the act , tho' the offence be personal , and done by one only , as is in this case , not only he that doth the act is principal , but also they that are present , abetting , and aiding the misdoer , are principals also . secondly , if the party on whom the crimes was committed , be notoriously unchast , and a known whore , yet there may be a ravishment . thirdly , in an indictment of rape , there is no limitation of time for the prosecution ; for nullum tempus occurrit regi , no time occurs against , or prevents the king 's suit ; but in case of an appeal of rape , if the woman do not prosecute in convenient time , it will bar her . fourthly , if a man take away a maid and ravish her by force , and afterward she gives her consent and marries him that did the act , yet it is a rape . as for the crimen sodomiticum , in the second indictment , i shall not paraphrase upon it , since it is of so abominable and vile a nature , ( that as the indictment truly expresses it , crimen inter christianos non nominandum ) it is a crime not to be named among christians ; and by the law of god , as well as the antient laws of england , it was punish'd with death . levit. . fleta , l. . cap. . sodomitae in terra vivi confodiantur : sodomites are to be buried alive in the earth ; or rather as some understand the phrase , be set deep and alive into a pit dig'd for that purpose , with their heads above ground , till they are famish'd to death , and this agrees with the mirror , cap. . the statute of . hen. . cap. . made it felony without clergy , which tho' repeal'd by . mar , yet it was revived by the . el. cap. . and is still in force . as to this indictment there is no other question , but whether it be crimen sodomiticum penetratione , whether he penetrated the body , or not ; to which i answer , the fifth of elizabeth , sets it down in general terms , and ubi lex non distinguit , ibi non distinguendum ; and i know you will be cautious how you give the least mittigation to such abominable sins ; for when once a man indulges his lust , and prevaricates with his religion , as my lord audley has done , by being a protestant in the morning , and a papist in the af●ernoon ▪ no wonder if he commits the most abominable impieties ; for when men forsake their god , 't is no wonder he leaves them to themselves . but here i find things that exceed all imagination , and is what the poet truly calls imprincipiti vitium , or meditated mischiefs , for his ill inclinations were bent , to force his wife to be naught against her own inclinations , which the wickedest man i ever heard of before would have vertuous and honest , how bad soever he is himself ; but on the contrary , the prisoner at the bar tells his wife , if she loves him , she must love antill his servant also ; and to incline the lady to lie with him , he fetcheth an argument from scripture , and tells her , that her body is his , and that she is bound to obey his commands ; and if she sinned in obeying him , it was no fault of hers , but his own , and he would answer for it . he allowed this antill , his vitious favorite , to spend five hundred pounds a year ; but would not allow his eldest son one hundred . if his lady or daughter wanted necessaries , they must lie with skipwith , another of his servants , before they could have money to buy what they wanted , telling his daughter he had rather she should have a child by skipwith , than any other person ; but these things , my lord , i had rather should come out of the mouths of the witnesses than from mine ; therefore , pray cryer , call walter tyte. cryer . vous avez walter tyte , who being sworn , the attorny general said . attorny general . walter tyte , inform my lord high steward , and the rest of these noble lords , the conditions and circumstances of antill and skipwith before they came into my lord audley's service , and how my lord audley preferr'd and enrich'd them afterwards . walter tyte. antill , my lord , was a footman to sir henry smith , and had not ( as i verily believe ) one farthing when he came to my lord , besides the cloaths on his back ; he liv'd with my lord as his footman and page several years ; then he had leave ▪ given him to keep horses in my lord's grounds , by which it was discours'd that , in a short time , he got two thousand pounds . he never sat at table with my lord , till he had married my lords daughter , with whom he gave him to the value of seven thousand pounds . henry skipwith was sent by my lord from ireland , to be my ladies page ; his father and mother was very poor people , yet he spent five hundred pounds a year of my lord's mony. he gave him at one time a thousand pounds , and has since made over to him leveral parcels of land , to the value of two hundred pounds a year . attorny general . pray what religion did my lord profess . walter tyte. at first every body knows he was a protestant ; but after the buying of founthill house , he turned to the romish religion , at the instance of some popish gentlemen who were neighbours . then the lady audley appearing as an evidence , she was sworn , and the attorney general said to her . attorny general . will your ladyship be pleas'd to inform these peers with the real truth , concerning my lords vile , and unheard of actions to your ladyship ? countess . my noble lords , i should be glad if a way might be found out , that i might deliver my testimony in a written affidavit , and not by word of mouth in this publick audience . lord high steward . i will propound it to the judges , and if the law will allow it , you shall be at your own election . my lords the judges , you have heard what the countess desires of us ; will you give your opinions , and satisfie her ladyship about it ? lord chief justice hyde . by the law , the testimony relating to matter of fact , that is ▪ what relates to the charge in the indictment , must be made viva voce , and not otherwise ▪ and the reason is , because persons may take a greater liberty of inserting in an affidavit , what is not really true ; which the awe of the court , or asking apt questions , may probably prevent , or discover the falsehood . lord high steward . your ladyship i hope is satisfied with the judges opinion , and the reasons on which its grounded . countess . why then my lords , the first or second night after we were married , antill came to our bed , and the lord audly talk'd lasciviously to me , and told me my body was his , and if i lay with any man with his consent , 't was not my fault , but his . he made skipwith come naked into our chamber and bed ; and took delight in calling up his servants to shew their nudities , and forc'd me to look upon them , and to commend those that had the longest . broadway , a servant of my lord's , by his lordships command , lay with me , and i making resistance , my lord audley held my hands , and one of my feet , and i would have kill'd my self with a knife afterwards , but he took it from me ▪ before that act of broadway's , i had never done it . he delighted to see the act done , and made antill come into the bed to us ▪ and lie with me in such a marmer , as he might see it , and though i cry'd out , he never regarded the complaint i made , but incouraged the ravisher . attorny general . pray young lady audley ▪ will you give my lord high steward , and these lords an account , of your fathers barbarous usage of you ! i was married to my husband by a romish priest in the morning , and at night by a prebend of killkenny . i was first compell'd to lie with skipwith , by the earls perswasions and threatnings , saying , i should have nothing but what skipwith gave me . he saw skipwith and i lie together several times , and so did many servants of the house besides . he tempted me to lie with others also , telling me , my husband did not love me , and if i would not , he would tell my husband i did lie with them . he used oyl to enter my body first , for i was then but twelve years of age , and usually lay with me by the earls privity and command . the next evidence that appear'd was sworn , was broadway , to whom the solicitor general said , broadway , give a true account of what you know of my lord audley's unnatural doings . broadway . i lay at his lordships beds feet , and in the night he call'd for some tobacco , which , when i brought to him , he caught hold of me , and bid me come to bed , which i at first deny'd , but at last consented , and went into the bed on the lords side , but he turned me upon my lady , and bid me lie with her ; my lord audley held both her hands , and one of her legs , and at last i lay with her , notwithstanding her resistance . the lord audley also us'd my body as a woman , but never pierc'd it , only spent his seed betwixt my thighs . i have seen skipwith lie with the young lady in bed , and when he got upon her , the lord audley stood by , and incourag'd him to get her with child . he also made skipwith lie with his own lady , telling him he could not live long , and it might be the making of him , and the like he said to me ! lord high steward . pray mr. attorney let skipwith be call'd , that we may hear what he can say ? skipwith . for the most part i lay in bed with the earl. he gave me his house in salisbury , and a mannor of two hundred and sixty pounds a year . i lay with the young lady very commonly , there being love between us before and after . my lord said he had rather have a boy of my getting than of any other . she was but twelve years of age when first i day with her , and i could not enter her body but by art , and my lord gave me things to open her body . sir john finch . pray let fitz-patrick be call'd . is your name fitz-patrick ? fitz-patrick . yes , sir. sir john finch . well , be sure you speak the truth , and give these lords the ●rue , and whole account , of what you know concerning the charge against my lord audley . fitz-patrick . henry skipwith was the great favourite of my lord audley , he usually lay in bed with him , and the lord would make him lye with his own lady , and with the young lady his daughter , and these things i saw several times , it being done in my lords sight also . my lord made me lye with him at fount-hill and salisbury , and once spent his seed , but did not penetrate my body , and i understood he had often done the like with others . he kept a woman in his house call'd blandina , who was a common whore to his lordship , and his servants . his house was a common brothel-house , and the earl himself took delight not only in being an actor , but a spectator while other men did it . blandina was once abused by himself and servants , for the space of seven hours together , until she got the french pox. lord high-steward . you gentlemen of the king's counsel , have you any more witnesses to produce , if you have , pray be expeditious ? mr. sergeant crew . my lord , we have several more , and desire that frere may be examined . lord high-steward . where is he , call him . frere . here , my lord. lord high-steward . pray speak what you know about my lord audley ; but be sure it be the truth . frere . i only know that skipwith , and the young lady audley , lay several times together while my lord was present , and that he said he would feign have her have a boy by him . attorney general . may it please your grace , my lord high-steward , we have several witnesses more to produce , but their testimonies being the same your lordships have already heard , and what i humbly conceive is sufficient to prove the charge in the indictment , against the prisoner at the bar , i shall give your lordships no further trouble ; but shall leave it to the clearness of the proofs which your lordships have heard , for i know your wisdoms to be such , that you know in so dark a business , a clearer proof can't be made ; for men though ne're so wicked , do not use to call witnesses to see it ; i shall say no more but commit the whole to your lordships considerations . lord high-steward . my lord audley , when i came first thither , i could not have believed there would have been such manifest proofs , as you find has been produc'd of horrible crimes against a person of your honour . i shall give you all the liberty you can desire in making your defence , and therefore desire to know what you have to say for your self , in reference to what has been sworn against you . lord audley . i humbly thank your grace for the favour you are pleased to grant me , though being no scholar , nor learned in the law , i have nothing to depend upon in my defence , but my own innocence , and your lordships good construction of my weakness . my lords , i must acknowledge that skipwith was but poor when he came to me , that he lay with me several times , when i was streightned for room in my house , and being a good servant i gave him good rewards . antil i thought deserved my favour also , and therefore had my consent to marry my daughter , and i gave him a good fortune with her . lord high-steward . i advise you my lord , not to deny what is plainly proved against you , lest you give the lords cause to suspect the truth of the rest . lord audley . my wife has been a whore , and has had a child , which i conceal'd to save her honour . she , and my son , and one mr. william wroughton , have plotted against my life , and all that 's alledg'd against me is only their inventions , and gives a dangerous example in the kingdom ; for no peer , or any other person , can be secure of his life , that has ( as i have , ) a wife who desires a younger husband , and a son that is gaping after my estate , and has the devil and wicked servants to assist their maliee , in indeavouring to take away my life wrongfully . this my lords , is my condition , and i hope your lordships will take care , that you don't involve the peers , the gentry , and commons , under a dangerous president in my condemnation ; for , if a wife of such a character , may be allowed to be a witness against her husband , no man is safe , when his wife dislikes him , and would have a younger husband . lord high-steward . if your lordfhip had proved a conspiracy to take away your life , you had urged what had been material ; but for want of proof it signifies nothing : however , i will propound your objections to the judges . my lords the judges , can a rape be committed against a whore ? and can a wife be a legal witness against her husband ? lord chief-justice . if the woman on whom the crime is committed , be a whore , yet it may be a ravishment : and in civil causes a wife can't be a witness against her husband , but in criminal causes she may . but , my lord , what do you say to what these fellows your servants have sworn against you ? lord audley . they are persons of mean and base extraction , and suborn'd by my wife and son to take away my life , and witnesses , according to law , should be honest men , and of untainted reputation , which these are not . fitz-patritk is a recusant , and therefore cannot be a witness ; besides , i have often beat him for his knavery and turn'd him away , and now he is hired by my son to swear against me . to which the judges answered , it did not appear he was convicted of recusancy ; that all are held legal evidences for the king , till they are convicted of crimes that may disable them ; and as to their reputation , no men of unstain'd credit , could be witnesses of such monstrous inhumanities ; besides , what the witnesses have sworn , has put their own lives into the same danger with his lordship's . lord audley . my lord , i desire to know , whether the statute intends that all kind of pollution , man with man , is buggery , or not , seeing the witnesses say there was no penetration ? lord high-steward . my lords the judges , you hear the lord audley's query , pray give him your opinions ? lord chief-justice . it is buggery by the law ; for the law of this land makes no distinction of buggery , if there be emissio seminis . lord high-steward . are persons of mean extraction , and of no estates , sufficient evidences against a baron ? lord chief-justice . against any man. lord high-steward . is a man that is particeps criminis , a party in the crime , a legal witness against the accused ? lord chief-justice . yes , my lord , for otherwise , facts of this nature , would seldom or never be discovered , and till he is attainted , he is ( bonus & legalis homo ) a competent evidence . then the lords withdrew to consider of the evidence , and being return'd , the lord high-steward asked them one by one whether my lord audley was guilty of the rape , or not guilty ; and they seriatim laying their hands upon their hearts , all answer'd guilty . then his lordship ask'd them whether he was guilty of sodomy , or not guilty ; and fifteen of the six and twenty answer'd guilty . then the lieutenant of the tower was commanded to bring forth his prisoner , and he being brought to the bar , the lord high-steward spoke to him as followeth . lord high-steward . mervyn lord audley , you have been indicted of two heinous crimes , rape , and sodomy ▪ you have pleaded not guilty , and put your self upon god , and your peers , who have found you guilty of both , and now my heart grieves for what my tongue must utter ▪ but justice is the way to cut off all wickedness . o think upon the turpitude of your offences , with an unfeigned sorrow , and a sincere repentance ; and as your crimes have been abominable , so let your mortification for them be as remarkable . 't is not a slight and formal contrition can obliterate your offences , for you have not only sin'd against the law of god and nature , but against the rage of man , jealousie ; and though you are not condemn'd for that enormity , you caus'd your daughter to be abused , and having honour and fortune to leave behind you , would have the spurious issue of a varlet to inherit both . my lord , i am sorry to see you so unconcerned , and that you discover no signs of sorrow , or repentance , for the crimes you have committed . how are you obliged to bless god , that his judgments did not seize and hurry you away , with the load of these sins upon your conscience , and in the very act of your filthiness ; but has ( i hope ) reserv'd you as a subject of his mercy , and when you were blinded in your sins , has brought you to this day of shame , that the sight of them might turn you to him by shame , sorrow , and repentance . these , my lord , are arguments that invite you to lay hold of his mercy , and secure a happy eternity , and therefore i advise you , to improve this opportunity , and for the few moments you have to live , indeavour to wash away your crimes in tears of true repentance , for the many crimes you have committed ; that the sentence i am going to pronounce , may prevent your dreadful doom from god almighty . the sentence . for as much as thou mervyn lord audley , hast been indicted of divers fellonies , and by thy peers hast been found guilty of them , thy sentence therefore is , that thou return to the place from whence thou camest , and from thence to the place of execution , and there be hang'd by the neck , till thy body be dead . and the lord have mercy on thee . the lord audley hearing his sentence , fell upon his knees , denied the fact , and desired the lords to intercede with his majesty , to grant him a little time to reconcile himself to god ; which their lordships promised they would , and then the court was dissolved . at the intercession of the lords , he had time given him by the king till saturday the fourteenth of may , and the sentence was changed into that of beheading . his coffin was sent to him about a week before his death , and he was daily visited by dr. wickham , dean of s. paul's ▪ to prepare himself for his dissolution . the day of his execution being come , he ascended a scaffold on tower-hill , in a plain black grogram suit , a falling band , and a black hat without a band ; accompanied by dr. winnerf , and dr. wickham , and several noblemen and gentlemen . then he address'd himself to prayers , and having done , he stood upon his legs , and leaning upon the two deans , after a short and private conference with them , he turned to the lords and spoke as follows . i thankfully acknowledge the great goodness of almighty god , whose divine majesty has bestow'd upon me honour , riches , and other endowments , which i have mispent in a vicious life , and have justly deserv'd death , as the reward of my sins against god ; but for the two heinous crimes for which i am now to suffer , i deny them upon my death , and freely forgive all that have been any way accessary to it ; even as heartily as i desire forgiveness at the hands of god , which i hope to obtain through his infinite goodness and mercy , and the assistance of your prayers , which i humbly beg of your lordships , and this whole assembly . it has been reported to my disadvantage , that i have been unsetled in my religion , and therefore i have made a confession of it to these two worthy doctors , and have publish'd it in print under my hand a week since , and do now again renounce all the errors and superstitions taught by the church of rome , or any other church ; and declare my self a member of the church of england , and stedfastly believe all the articles of that church , as they are confirmed by authority of parliament . having thus acquainted you with the articles of my faith , i must next acknowledge the great justice and mercy of the king's majesty . his justice in bringing me to a tryal , and his mercy in appointing me to be tryed by such noble peers , and in assigning me this kind of death , rather than that pronounc'd in my sentence ; but above all , for giving me so long a time to repent in , and sending these two worthy divines to assist me ; for i hope , nay , can speak it to my comfort , that i have made such good use of these favours , that i am fully prepar'd to die , and before you all give my hearty thanks to these two good men , for the great pains they have taken in coming to me , praying for me , and preaching and reading to me ; and i desire your lordships will give my humble thanks to the king for sending them to me , and for all the rest of his favours ; for which i pray god to bless his majesty , the queen , the young prince , the king and queen of bohemia , and all the royal family . and now my lords , and all you who are spectators , i humbly request you that you would remove your eyes from me , and your thoughts from what i am to suffer , and lift up your eyes , your hands , and your hearts , to heaven in prayer for me ; and so i take my last farewell of your lordships , and all the world. after this , his lordship betook himself to his private prayers , and then undrest , and prepar'd himself to receive the fatal stroke : then taking leave again of the lords and doctors , he prayed a while by himself , pull'd his hankerchief over his face , laid his neck upon the block , and having given the sign , the executioner at one blow , divided his head from his body . finis . a brief account of the indictment, tryal, conviction and execution of mr. robert bailzie of jeresswood upon the th, th and th of december : at his majesties capital city of edinburgh in his ancient kingdom of scotland : where the said mr. robert bailzie was hanged and afterwards quartered for high treason. baillie, robert, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing b estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a brief account of the indictment, tryal, conviction and execution of mr. robert bailzie of jeresswood upon the th, th and th of december : at his majesties capital city of edinburgh in his ancient kingdom of scotland : where the said mr. robert bailzie was hanged and afterwards quartered for high treason. baillie, robert, d. . sheet. printed for w. davies, london : . caption title. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (treason) -- scotland. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a brief account of the indictment , tryal , conviction , and execution of m r. robert bailzie of jerresswood , upon the th , th , and th of december . at his majesties capital city of edinburgh , in his ancient kingdom of scotland . where the said mr. robert bailzie was hanged and afterwards quartered for high treason . on monday december the th . about nine in the morning , the said mr. robert bailzie , of jerresswood , had his indictment by sound of trumpet , and heraulds in their formalities , to appear the th at two of the clock in the afternoon before the lords commissioners of the judiciary , at which time he did appear accordingly . the assize and witnesses being called , and silence made , and he in pannel ; his indictment was read by the clerk of the court with an audible voice , to the effect following , viz. that he , the said robert bailzie , having casten off the fear of god , allegiance to his sovereign lord the king ; had most treacherously , notwithstanding of several laws and acts , resett , harboured , maintained and corresponded with archibald champbell , late earl of argile , and mr. veatch , two desperat and ●ore-faulted traitors ; and that he had joyned in councel with the late lord russel , commissar monroe , the lord melvill , sir thomas armstrong , sir john cochran , the two cessnocks and divers others , in that hellish conspiracy for taking away the lives of his sacred majesty and royal highness , and for subverting the government , and for that effect had assisted , voted , and consulted , for the uplifting of ten thousand pounds sterling , for buying of arms , to be employed for raising of forces , &c. his majesties advocate produced his warrand from the lords of the privy-councel , for his insisting against him , and sir george lockhart , and sir john louder , upon their allegiance to assist the king's advocate , which they did . the advocates for the pannel ( i. e. prisoner ) were sir patrick hoome , mr. walter pringle , mr. william fletcher , mr. james grahame , and mr. william bailzie , who protested they might have the liberty of a free debate , which was granted , and they insisted , that as to the corresponding with the rebels libelled , it ought not to be sustained as a point of dittay , it being res hactenus judicata , the pannel being fined in six thousand pound sterling before the councel for the said crime already . his majesties advocate hereupon restricted his libel to the other crimes libelled . the lords found the libel relevant , and admitted the same to probation . then the jury were chosen and sworn , viz. the right honourable the earl of strathmoir . the right honourable the earl of balcarrass . sir. george skeene , provost of aberdeene . sir. james flemminge , provost of edinburgh . sir. john ramsey of whitehill . mr. andrew hepburne of humbie . mr. andrew bruce of earleshall . mr. john stewart tuttor of appin . mr. alexander miln of carrin . mr. james ellies of stein 〈…〉 ●ills . sir william drummond of hauthornden . major andrew white , lieutenant of edenburgh castle . mr. david grahame , sherriffe of wigtoun , and david burnet merchant in edinburgh . the witnesses were called , and first the right honourable the earl of tarrass ; who deponed , that mr. robert martin was sent from london by the pannel , and other conspirators there , to perswade his lordship , and several other south country gentlemen to rise in arms , secure berwick , the castles of edinburgh , and striveling , the officers of state and army ; which being done , they were to have pressed his majesty to have permitted the parliament of england to have sitten , and to pass the bill of exclusion ; and many more things his lordship very clearly deponed . the advocates for the pannel objected against the earl of tarras , that the could be no witness , for he being socius criminis incarceratus & sub metu mortis , and being indicted for the said crimes regiam majestatem , the act of robert the second and common law allowes no witnesses to be allowed in such cases . his majesties advocate answered , that in plots and conspiracies it was impossible to have proved the same , except such persons were sustained as witnesses ; so the lords repelled the objection in respect of the answer , and sustained his lordship a witness . the second witness was commisser monroe , who was brought from his majesties castle of blackness , by a party of horse of the lord drumlanricks troop , and deponed that the pannel was present at several meetings at london , and that he did contribute for sending mr. martin into scotland , and that he desired he might be sent to holland to the earl of argile , with the ten thousand pounds sterling ; and many more things to this purpose and effect . the third witness was murray of philliphaugh , and scot of gallousheilds , who both deponed conformes precedentibus in omnibus as to the riseing of arms , &c. his majesties advocate produced for further proof , the judicial confession of mr. william carstares before the lords of the privy councel , &c. the probation being closed , the advocates on both sides made very learned speeches to the assize , ( i. e. jury ) who immediately thereafter , viz. at the hour of twelve at night , did close themselves in , and having chosen the earl of strathmoir chancellor , ( i. e. foreman ) they rose about three a clock in the morning , and at nine brought in their verdict , viz. that they found it proven that he was art and part in the crimes libelled , and that he had concealed the same . which being publickly read , and the verdict thereafter closed by the said earl his seal , the sentence of death was pronounced as followeth . forsameckle as it is found by an assize , that mr. robert bailzie of jerresswood is guilty of the particular crimes mentioned in his dittay , therefore the lords justice general , justice clark , and remanent lords commissioners of his majesties justiciarie , and i in their names , decree and adjudge the said mr. robert bailzie to be taken to the mercatt cross of edinburgh , this present th instant of december , and there , betwixt two and four a clock in the afternoon , to be hanged on a gibbet until he be dead , his head to be cut off , and affi●ed upon the netherhow of edinburgh , his body to be quartered , the one quarter to be put upon the tolbooth of jedburgh , the other on lanrick , the third on aire , and the fourth on the tolbooth of glassgow , and ordaines all his lands and rents , goods and gear , to be forefaulted to his majesties use , his arms torn and rent , his coat armor all to be razed out of the lyon books , so that he , nor none of his posterity , shall bear arms in time to come . the sentence being given by sound of trumpet and heraulds in their formalities did tear his coat of arms in face of court , trample the same under foot , and did cast them in his face , and thereafter went to the mercatt cross , and performed the rest of the solemnities usual . just before the sentence he professed he was never privy to any conspiracy against the life of his sacred majesty , royal highness , or any person in the world , and that he never did design to subvert the government , but what he had done , was for the redressing of such grievances he thought were lying upon the nation , and that he died innocently , and with a good conscience . after sentence , all he said was , that he had too short a time. at the place and time in the sentence mentioned , he was executed , saying very little on the scaffold . finis . london , printed for w. davies in amen corner , . the tryal and conviction of sr. sam. barnardiston, bart. for high misdemeanor at the session of nisi prius holden at guild-hall, london, for his majesties court of kings bench before the right honorable sir george jeffreys ... lord chief justice of england on thursday, feb. , . barnardiston, samuel, sir, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and conviction of sr. sam. barnardiston, bart. for high misdemeanor at the session of nisi prius holden at guild-hall, london, for his majesties court of kings bench before the right honorable sir george jeffreys ... lord chief justice of england on thursday, feb. , . barnardiston, samuel, sir, - . england and wales. court of king's bench. [i.e. ] p. printed for benjamin tooke ..., london : . trial for sedition connected with rye house plot. reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng rye house plot, . trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal and conviction of s r. sam , bernardiston , bar t. for high-misdemeanor at the session of nisi privs , holden at guild-hall , london , for his majesties court of kings bench , before the right honorable sir george jeffreys , knight and baronet , lord chief justice of england , on thursday , feb. . . london : printed for benjamin tooke , at the ship in s. pauls church-yard , . i do appoint benjamin tooke to print the tryal of sir samuel bernardiston , baronet ; and order that no other person presume to print the same . geo. jeffreys . the tryal and conviction of sir sam . bernardiston , baronet . for high-misdemeanor , at the session of nisi privs , holden at guild-hall , london . there being in hillary term last an information in the court of kings-bench preferred by his majesties attorny general against sir samuel bernardiston , for a very great misdemeanor ; upon oath made that he was so extreamly indisposed , that he could not appear in person without danger of his life : the court were pleased to respite his recognizance , ( which he by order of the lords of his majesties most honourable privy council , entered into the last vacation to appear in this court the first day of this term , ) and to allow him the liberty of pleading to the information by attorney , which he did . and thursday the th . of february , . being the session of nisi prius after the term holden for the city of london and county of the same , was appointed for the tryal of this cause , and accordingly then the same came on , and was tryed before the right honourable sir george jeffreys , knight and baronet , lord chief justice of his majesties court of kings-bench , in this manner . clerk. call away cryer . cryer . you good men of nisi prius , summoned to appear here this day between our sovereign lord the king , and sir samuel bernardiston , baronet , answer to your names and save your issues . cl. thomas vernon and his fellows . vous avez plein inquest . call the defendant sir samuel bernardiston . cryer . sir samuel bernardiston , come forth or this inquest shall be taken by your default . mr. williams . he appears . cl. gardez vostres challenges . swear thomas vernon . cr. you shall well and truely try this issue between our sovereign lord the king , and sir samuel bernardiston according to your evidence . so help you god. cl. percival gilburn , who was sworn , and so the rest . the names of the twelve were these . thomas vernon , jur. percival gilburn , jur. edward bovery , jur. william withers , sen. jur. james wood , jur. robert masters , jur. samuel newton , jur. george torriano , jur. kenelm smith , jur. thomas goddard , jur. thomas amy and jur. richard blackburn . jur. then they were counted , and proclamation made for information in usual manner . mr. poultney . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; this cause is between the king and sir samuel bernardiston , and it is upon an information exhibited by mr. attorney general , wherein he sets forth , that there having been lately a horrid plot discovered ( as appears by the convictions of those that have suffered justly for it , and by the evidence that has been given of it , has been made so apparent , that i do not question , but that no man but who either has a hand in it , or else bears a good will to it , doth at all scruple the belief of it ) sir samuel bernardiston the defendant intending to scandalize and vilifie the evidence , wrote a letter wherein are contained these sentences . the return of the duke of monmouth to white-hall , and his being received into extraordinary favour of his majesty , hath made a strange alteration of affairs at court ; for those that before spake of him very indecently , now court , cringe and creep to him . his grace complained to the king of the scandalous misrepresentation that was made of him in the mondays gazette , upon which the gazetter was called to accompt for it , who alledged for himself , that a person of great quality sent him in writing the words therein recited , commanding him to put them in the gazette . yesterday being the last day of the term , all the prisoners that were in the tower upon the late sham protestant-plot , were discharged upon bayl. mr. bradon who prosecuted the murther of the earl of essex , the information put in against him in the kings-bench by mr. attorney for a pretended subornation &c. was not prosecuted , and his bail was discharged . and the passing sentence upon the author of julian the apostate , and the printer of the late lord russels speech was passed over with silence . great applications are made to his majesty for the pardoning mr. sidney in the tower , which is believed will be attained , and that he will be banished . the lord howard appears despicable in the eyes of all men ; he is under guard at white-hall , and 't is believed will be sent to the tower , for that the duke of monmouth will accuse him concerning the testimony he hath given , and the papists and high tories are quite down in the mouth , their pride is abated , themselves and their plot confounded , but their malice is not aswaged . t is generally said the earl of essex was murthered . the brave lord russel is afresh lamented . the plot is lost here , except you in the country can find it out amongst the adressers and abhorrers . this sudden turn is an amazement to all men , and must produce some strange events , which a little time will shew . and then he goes on further , and saies in another letter these words . i am to answer yours of the and th . past , and truly i cannot but with great sorrow lament the loss of our good friend honest mr. john wright , but with patience we must submit to the almighty , who can as well raise up instruments to do his work , as change hearts , of which we have so great an instance in the business of the duke of monmouth , that no age or history can parallel . i am now throughly satisfied , that what was printed in the mondays gazette is utterly false , and you will see it publickly declared so shortly . the king is never pleased but when he is with him , hath commanded all the privy council to wait upon him , and happy is he that hath most of his favour . his pardon was sealed and delivered to him last wednesday . 't is said he will be restored to be master of the horse , and be called into the council table , and to all his other places , and 't is reported he will be made captain general of all the forces , and lord high admiral , &c. he treats all his old friends that daily visit him with great civilities , they are all satisfied with his integrity , and if god spares his life , doubt not but he will be an instrument of much good to the king ' and kingdom . he said publickly , that he knew my lord russel was as loyal a subject as any in england , and that his majesty believed the same now . i intend shortly to wait on him my self . it would make you laugh to see how strangely our high-tories and clergy are mortified , their countenances speak it . were my shesorary to be moved for now it would be readily granted . sr. george is grown very humble : 't is said mr. sidney is reprieved for dayes , which bodes well . and then , gentlemen , he goes on further , and in a third letter sayes , the late change here in publick affairs is so great and strange , that we are like men in a dream , can hardly believe what we see , and fear we are not fit for so great a mercy as the present juncture seems to promise . the sham protestant-plot is quite lost and confounded . the earl of mackensfield is bringing actions of scandalis magnatum against all the grand jury-men that indicted him at last assizes . l. ch. j. that is the only true thing in the whole . mr. poultney reads — and the several gentlemen that were indicted in cheshire and northamptonshire will bring their several actions at law against them . and , gentlemen , then in a fourth letter are contained these expressions . contrary to all mens expectations , a warrant is signed at last for beheading col. sidney at tower-hill next friday . great endeavours have been used to obtain his pardon , but the contrary party have carried it , which much dasheth our hopes , but god still governs . gentlemen , all this the information saies , he has done against the peace of the king , his crown and dignity . to this he has pleaded not guilty . we will call our witnesses , and if we prove it , we question not but you will find him guilty . mr. recorder . may it please your lordship and you gentlemen of the jury ; i am of counsel for the king in this cause . upon the opening of these letters to you , you cannot but wonder much more than he does that wrote them . his matter of wonder was one way , and i suppose your matter of wonder is another way , that a man , such an one as he is , should have that confidence to write such letters as these are . gentlemen , i do not doubt but you observe in the series of these letters how he hath travelled through all the transactions of this horrid conspiracy , that was of late contrived against the life of the king , and the life of his royal highness , and for the destruction of the government ; and how he does endeavour to turn it all into ridicule , and to magnifie the men , that have come to publick justice for being concerned in that horrid conspiracy , as being very brave men . the brave lord russel he is lamented as a brave man lost ; the earl of essex , he forsooth was murthered , and mr. bradden who prosecuted that murther , he is a brave man , whom i suppose some of you have heard of , and what is become of him , how he is convicted of one of the most notorious facts that ever was acted by man in any civil government , which was that bradden should go up and down to get witnesses to make it appear to the world , as though somebody had murthered that earl. thus you see he goes through the conspiracy from one thing to another , and calls it a sham protestant-plot , and all to ridicule the discovery , which by these very letters you may easily be satisfied of the reality and extent of . you see how he magnifies his julian , but he likewise is come to condign punishment for that most pernitious and scandalous libel . in the next place he comes to the duke of monmouth , and tells you what a brave man they have in him , to be their captain general , and he did not doubt but to see him come to it ; and sets forth that he has denied all the plot , and how he doth persist in that denial . and this gentleman has raised his confidence in these letters to that degree , that i think , any man that has lived any time in this nation , cannot but wonder , that ever there should be such an impudent action committed in it . gentlemen , we shall call our witnesses and prove it positively upon him , that these letters he did write , and then i suppose he will give an account how he came to write them . mr. herbert . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . i have but one word which i desire to observe ; for the opening of the case , and a right understanding of the matter will have a great influence upon the proofs . and i shall not insist upon any thing that has been opened at large out of the letters , but one thing i would observe to you , and that is out of the last letter . great endeavours have been used to obtain his pardon , but the contrary party have carried it , which much dasheth our hopes . so it seems by this that the faction , the party , have their hopes still , and it seems likewise the writer of these letters , hath a very great share in them . we have gentlemen , nothing to do here before you , but to prove that sir samuel bernardiston was the author , writer and publisher of the letters , which contain that which is charged in the information , and that we question not but to prove clearly without contradiction . call mr. blathwait . who was sworn . mr. herbert . pray give in the letters . which was done mr. recorder . pray sir , look upon those letters , and give the court and the jury an account where you had them . mr. blathwait . gentlemen of the jury , these three letters sir samuel bernardiston upon the th . of december , before the king and the lords of the council did own to be of his hand-writing . i marked them at that instant of time , and i am well assured they are the letters he owned to be of his hand-writing . mr. williams . did he own them to be of his hand-writing ? mr. blathwaite . yes . l. ch. j. did he own them all three ? mr. blathwaite . yes , my lord , he did . mr. williams . pray sir , who are they directed to ? l. ch. j. mr. williams , he is informed against for writing not for superscribing . mr. williams . my lord , i ask that question for this reason , he is indicted for writing and publishing , therefore i would know who they are directed to . did he say they were published by him , or sent to any one ? mr. blathwaite . he did not deny but that he had published and sent them . mr. williams . did he confess it ? mr. blathwaite . he did not deny it . l. ch. j. i suppose they on the other side will give an accompt where they were taken . mr. herbert . yes my lord. swear mr. atterbury . which was done mr. recorder . heark you , mr. atterbury , do you know any thing of these letters ? mr. atterbury . if you please to let me see them , sir. mr. recorder . shew him them which was done , and he looked upon them , and gave them in again . mr. herbert . did you hear sir samuel barnardiston own them to be his letters ? mr. atterbury . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , i had a warrant from mr. secretary jenkyns , about two months , or ten weeks ago , to apprehend sir samuel barnardiston , and i did , according to order , by vertue of that warrant , apprehend him , and carry him before his majesty . when he was there , those three letters i had just now in my hand , were then shewn to sir samuel bernardiston . i marked them , and know them to be the same ; sir samuel bernardiston did own he wrote them letters all three . l. ch. just . were the superscriptions upon them all , as they are now ? mr. atterb . yes , they were all as they are now . l. ch. just . what say you , mr. blathwaite ? mr. blathwaite . yes , they were just so , the same superscriptions . mr. atterb . his majesty asked him , who subscribed them ? — l. ch. just . superscribed them , thou meanest , they are not subscribed . mr. atterb . yes , my lord , superscribed them ; and he looked on them once again , and said , they were superscribed by one of his servants , and so ordered to be carried to the post-house . mr. recorder . where is nehemiah osland ? jury-man . my lord , we would ask the witness , whether he did own , that he sent them to the post-house ? l. ch. just . he says he ordered his man to superscribe them , and so to carry them to the post-house . mr. williams . look you , mr. atterbury , did he say he directed any of his servants to carry them to the post-house , upon your oath ? mr. atterb . i am upon my oath , sir ; i say , that he did say , that they were superscribed by some of his servants , he could not say which of his servants it was , and then they were sent to the post-house . mr. williams . pray , sir , mind , and answer my question , did he say he directed any of his servants to carry them to the post-house ? l. c. just . did he take any notice to you , or did you understand by him , that they were sent to the post-house by his consent ? mr. atterbury . yes , my lord , i did understand him so . l. c. just . did he write these letters to keep them in his pocket , do you think , mr. williams ? mr. williams . i do not know what he design'd them for , my lord ; nor do i yet know , till they are read , what is in them : but i ask him this question , did he say he sent them to the post-house ? mr. atterb . with your leave , i remember one thing more , my lord ; while he was in my house , ( for there he was in custody two days or more ) talking about these letters , says he , i wonder how they were taken , they were sent to sir skippon , or some such name he named . mr. recorder . swear nehemiah osland . which was done . mr. herbert . look upon those letters , sir , shew him them . which was done . l. ch. just . is this man's name osland ? mr. recorder . yes , nehemiah osland . do you know any thing of those superscriptions ? osland . two of those superscriptions i writ by his order as his servant . mr. recorder . which are those two ? then he gave them into the court. l. c. just . can you tell whose hand is the other part ? osland . i did not see it writ , but the hand is somewhat like sir samuel bernardiston's hand . l. ch. just . you believe it to be his hand . osland . yes , i do . mr. williams . did you ever see the inside of those letters that you say you superscribed ? osland . no , i never saw the inside . l. ch. just . what directions had you about them , after you had superscribed them ? osland . i had no direction but to leave them where i used to leave his letters , and that was in a window that sir samuel barnardiston always left his letters in , and from thence one of the boys used to carry them to the post-house . mr. williams . sir , did sir samuel order you to superscribe those three letters , and send them to the post-house ? l. ch. just . he said he superscribed them by his command , and left them in the place that letters used to be laid that were to go to the post-house . mr. recorder . pray sir look upon those letters again . l. ch. just . whose hand is the superscription ? is that sir samuel's too ? osland . i believe it sir samuel's hand . l. ch. just . shew that other letter to mr. blathwaite : ●hat say you to it sir ? mr. blathwaite . gentlemen of the jury : this is another letter that was seized and brought before the king and the lords of the council , and this letter was afterwards owned by osland , to be writ by him by sir samuel barnardiston's order . l. ch. just . did sir samuel own this letter to be his hand-writing too ? mr. blathwaite . no , he did not , but osland did own it . mr. recorder . my lord , we prove it otherwise to be sir samuel's letter , because it is not his hand but his mans. you osland , do you know who writ that letter ? osland . i writ it . mr. recorder . by whose order ? osland . i transcribed it out of a copy given me by sir samuel barnardiston , as i was his servant . l. ch. just . and did you write the superscription too ? osland . yes , i writ the superscription . l. ch. just . in order to what ? to go down into the country too ? osland . in order to go where it was directed , my lord. l. ch. just . where was that ? osland . into suffolk to sir philip skippon . l. ch. just . this letter was written at london , was it not ? osland . in bishopsgate-street at sir samuel's house . mr. williams . what is your name sir ? osland . my name is osland . mr. williams . your christian name ? osland . nehemiah . mr. williams . then , nehemiah osland , i ask you this question upon your oath , when these letters were superscribed by you , did you lay them in that window you speak of , or did you give them back again to sir samuel ? osland . sir , i am not so certain as to swear to these particular letters ; but his usual custom was , he would write a letter , and then give it me to copy : his closet door was near another window , and there he would leave it . if it were but one letter , he would use to say , direct such a letter to such a person , or such a place , and when it was so directed , i was used to put my letters there , and thence one of the boys came and fetched them to carry them to the post-house . but sometimes he would send me down directly with it away to the post-house , if he had not any other business for me to do . mr. williams . but sir , mind the question . i ask you again : did you deliver these letters , or any of them back again to sir samuel barnardiston , or no ? osland . i cannot tell for these particular letters . i tell you what the usual custom was in the house . mr. williams . pray when you had superscribed them , or sir samuel , what became of them letters ? osland . they went to the post-house , as i believe . mr. williams . how long have you served sir samuel barnardiston ? osland . five months . mr. williams . did you serve any body before ? osland . no. mr. recorder . why , do you think he doth not serve him well now , mr. williams ? mr. williams . i know very well what i think of it mr. recorder . l. ch. just . well , come read them . clerk reads — this is directed to sir philip skippon knight , at ipswich , and dated novemb. . . reads sir , the return of — mr. williams . that is not sir samuels hand , i think . l. ch. just . no , but writ by his order . osland . i transcribed it by his special order : for he came to me and gave me a letter , says he , go and make a copy of this letter . mr. recorder . and you did transcribe it exactly as it was in the paper he gave you ? osland . i examined it after i had writ it my self , and read it over again . l. ch. just . what did you write it out of ? osland . a copy he gave me . l. ch. just . was that copy his hand-writing ? osland . i did not see him write it , but i believe it to be his writing . l. ch. just . come read it . clerk reads — sir , the return of the duke of monmouth to white-hall , and his being received into extraordinary favour of his majesty , hath made a strange alteration of affairs at court : for those that before spake of him very indecently , now court , cringe , and creep to him . his grace complained to the king of the scandalous misrepresentation that was made of him in the mondays gazette , upon which the gazetter was called to accompt for it , who alleadged for himself , that a person of great quality sent him in writing the words therein recited , commanding him to put them in the gazette . yesterday being the last day of the term , all the prisoners that were in the tower upon the late sham protestant plot , were discharged upon bail. mr. bradden , who prosecuted the murder of the earl of essex , the information put in against him in the kings bench by mr. attorney ( for a pretended subornation ) &c. was not prosecuted , and his bail was discharged . and the passing sentence upon the author of julian the apostate , and the printer of the late lord russel's speech , was passed over with silence . great applications are made to his majesty for the pardoning mr. sidney in the tower , which is believed will be attained , and that he will be banished . the lord howard appears despicable in the eyes of all men , he is under a guard at white-hall , and believed he will be sent to the tower , for that the d. of m. will accuse him concerning the testimony he hath given , &c. the papists and high tories are quite down in the mouth , their pride is abated , themselves and their plot confounded , but their malice is not asswaged . 't is generally said , the earl of essex was murdered , the brave lord russel is afresh lamented . the plot is lost here , except you in the country can find it out amongst the addressors and abborrers . this sudden turn is an amazement to all men , and must produce some strange events , which a little time will shew . mr. recorder . now , go on to the next . the second letter . clerk. reads — this is directed , to sir philip skippon knight , at ipswich , suffolk . l. ch. just . that is one of his own writing . mr. recorder . yes , my lord. clerk. it is dated london the primo december , . dear sir , i am to answer yours of the th and th past , and truly i cannot but with great sorrow lament the loss of our good friend honest mr. john wright , but with patience we must submit to the almighty , who can as well raise up instruments to do his work , as change hearts , of which we have so great an instance in the business of the duke of monmouth , that no age or history can parallel . i am now throughly satisfied , that what was printed in the mondays gazette is utterly false , and you will see it publickly so declared shortly . the king is never pleased but when he is with him , hath commanded all the privy council to wait upon him , and happy is he that hath most of his favor . his pardon was sealed and delivered to him last wednesday . 't is said , he will be restored to be master of the horse , and be called into the council table , and to all his other places· and 't is reported , he will be made captain general of all the forces , and lord high admiral , &c. he treats all his old friends that daily visit him , with great civilities ; they are all satisfied with his integrity , and if god spares his life , doubt not but he will be an instrument of much good to the king and kingdom . he said publickly , that he knew my lord russel was as loyal a subject as any in england , and that his majesty believed the same now . i intend shortly to wait on him my self . it would make make you laugh to see how strangely our high tories and clergy are mortified their countenance speaks it . were my shesorary to be moved , for now it would be readily granted . sir george is grown very humble . 't is said mr. sidney is reprieved for days , which bodes well . mr. kedder sat with me sometime this evening . l. ch. just . there is no more in the record . mr. recorder . no my lord. then go on to the third . clerk. this is directed , for mr. edward gael , linnen draper at ipswich . mr. williams . is it likely he should write these letters to a draper ? l. ch. j. it is , it seems , the ordinary riff-raff he writes . he thinks it not below him to keep a correspondence with all the scoundrels of his party in the country . mr. recorder . ay , all sorts of trades he is acquainted with . clerk. it is dated the primo december , . reads — mr. gael this evening mr. kedder came and sat with me — l. ch. j. will you have it all read ? mr. williams . no , my lord , we do not desire it . l. ch. j. then read what is in the record . mr. recorder . look where that passage begins , the late change. — clerk. where is it sir ? it is not marked . l. ch. j. if you cannot find it out , then read the whole . clerk. reads — mr. gael , this evening mr. kedder came and sat with me , when acquainted him what you and others writ me in reference to himself , as also of the death of mr. wright , which he was sorry for . he protested , if could perswade his wife , he would accept of ipswich choice , notwithstanding all the discouragement he had met with . one more he acquainted me with , that had seen a letter from mr. cutliffe to dr. clegat , extreamly discouraging him from coming to ipswich , where if he did come , said , would find himself mistaken , for that would never enjoy quietness or peace , notwithstanding his balsamick temper , &c. as he call'd it . these things frights mr. kedder , who i am now perswading so soon as is up again , to go down for a month or two , and then if doth not like the place and people , may return hither again . this i resolve to press hard on monday , when have promised to dine with me , as also mr. hodges . be confident , i shall think nothing too much to effect this business , though one or other still pulls down as fast as i build up — here is now a door of incouragement opened for sober men to come into publick employment . you will undo the town of ipswich if you bring not sober men into play : for gods sake consider of it . perswade mr. snelling , or some sober men , to come in their two ports-mens places void for other matters , refer you to sir p. the late change here in publick affairs , is so great and strange . l. ch. j. there begins the passage in the record . clerk reads — the late change here in publick affairs is so great and strange , that we are like men in a dream , can hardly believe what we see , and fear we are not fit for so great a mercy as the present juncture seems to promise . the earl of mackensfeild is bringing actions of scandalis magnatum against all the grand jury-men that indicted him at last assizes . and the several gentlemen that were indicted in cheshire and northamptonshire , will bring their several actions at law against them . acquaint mr. snilling — l. ch. j. there is all that is in the record . mr. recorder . there are but two lines more . clerk reads — acquaint mr. snilling we received the two barrels of oysters , and two couple of ducks , and desire him to take mony of buckle for them . i rest , yours . mr. recorder . now go on to the next . clerk. this is the fourth letter : it is directed to mr. william cavell , at brightwell near ipswich in suffolk , and dated london the th of december , . shall i read it all ? l. ch. j. no , no : if you can find that part that is in the record , contrary to most mens expectations , there it begins . clerk. reads — contrary to most mens expectations a warrant is signed at last for beheading colonel sidney at tower-hill next friday . great endeavors have been used to obtain his pardon , but the contrary party have carryed it , which much dasheth our hopes , but god still governs . acquaint buckle . — l. ch. j. there is all . clerk. here is but a line more reads acquaint buckle , here is no news of crafton hoy , notwithstanding the wind is fair , 't is his practice always to loyter by the way . i rest , your loving friend . mr. williams . pray let me see that letter . mr. recorder . we have done , my lord , we leave it here . l. ch. j. well , what say you to it that are for the defendant ? mr. williams . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am of counsel here for the defendant sir samuel barnardiston , and the question now before you is , whether this gentleman be knowingly guilty of the writing and publishing these four letters that have been read here to you , and which of them he is guilty of writing , and which not ? i do not see see that his name is put to any of them , nay , the letters are not subscribed by any body , and that , gentlemen ; you may see by looking upon the letters . for the evidence that hath been given , i beseech your lordship to observe what it is . as to his publishing of them i see no evidence at all to prove him any way concerned in that : some of them indeed are his own hand writing , and proved to be his letters , by his own confession before the king and council ; that mr. blathwaite and mr. atterbury the messenger swear directly , that sir samuel barnardiston did own the letters , but for the fourth they say he did disown that to be his letter , and it is not so much as his hand ; but what proof is it they have brought to apply this to him ? you see what a sort of proof is made : they produce you here a young man that was ( as it hapned ) his servant at this time , and lived in his family with him in the nature of a secretary , it seems ; and how fit he was to be entertained in that quality , you i question not observe . he says , he did copy this letter by the direction of his master . it is well if he did not keep a copy himself by him of such a letter as this for a particular use , as some honest servants have done before now , that have designed somewhat of advantage to themselves : but that is his evidence about this fourth letter . that then gentlemen which we would offer on behalf of the defendant , is this , whether there be any evidence of the publishing of these letters by sir samuel barnardiston , either of all or any , and which of them ? all the proof that i hear , comes from atterbury , and the clerk of the council mr. blathwaite , which is but this : atterbury says , that sir samuel should say , they were sent to the post-house ; and mr. blathwaite says , he did not deny the publishing of them , but he does not say , he confessed it . as to the sending to the post-house , if it be true , i shall leave it to your lordship how far that , my lord , can be a publishing of a libel ; whether that be a publishing within the information , or no ? a gentleman writes a letter to a private friend , and sends it to the post-house ; whether that be a publishing of a libel , i leave it to you ? for the fourth letter , this same trusty secretary cannot tell you , whether he delivered it back again to sir samuel , or no ; or whether he put it in the window ; or whether he delivered it in at the post-house , only , as he believes , he laid it in the window as he used to do other letters . but whatever he believes must not pass for evidence , especially in mate●rs of this nature , it being a great crime , as the information has set it forth . if then there is no proof ( as with submission i hope there is not ) of the publication of these letters , i suppose , gentlemen , you will not take it upon your oaths , that he is guilty of what he is here accused of without evidence . this information , gentlemen , doth mention several things which do very much aggravate the matter , if they were proved . many things are laid in it to induce the information , and which may much enhance the crime , but of which i see no manner of proof at all . many things are mentioned as facts leading to the main fact , which is the great offence ; but these not being proved upon him , i desire he may be acquitted of that part . l. ch. j. what do you mean , mr. williams ? mr. williams . of all your preamble . l. ch. j. what preamble do you mean ? mr. williams . that he being a person of a turbulent and unquiet spirit — l. ch. j. why mr. williams , would you have the jury find that he is not so ? mr. williams . my lord , there is no proof of it ; or that he did do it with a design seditiously to disturb the peace , that he did it with a seditious intent . l. ch. j. you would have the jury find , i warrant , that he did it piously , and with a good intent . mr. williams . my lord , there is a middle way — l. ch. j. no , no , mr. williams , let us have none of that doctrine , we must have a care of that , and your middle ways . for certainly the law supplies the proof , if the thing it self speaks malice and sedition . as it is in murder , we say always in the indictment , he did it by the instigation of the devil : can the jury , if they find the fact , find he did it not by such instigation ? no , that does necessarily attend the very nature of such an action , or thing . so , in informations for offences of this nature , we say , he did it falsly , malitiously , and seditiously , which are the formal words ; but , if the nature of the thing be such as necessarily imports malice , reproach , and scandal to the government , there needs no proof but of the fact done , the law supplies the rest . if the fact were indifferent in it self , then to make a crime of it , the accidental circumstances must be proved , but it needs not where the thing implies malice in its own nature . you would have the jury find he had no ill design in it ; he did it with a good intent , i warrant you . mr. williams . all i would ask , my lord , is but this — l. ch. j. do you think he did it to serve the crown ? if the jury will take it upon their oaths that sir samuel barnardiston wrote these letters to serve the crown , you say something . pray ask them that question : try if you can make them believe that , mr. williams . mr. williams . there is no evidence given about his malice . l. ch. just . yes , the very thing is evidence of it self . mr. williams . pray , my lord , let the fact lye upon its own weight : there is no proof given of any of these aggravating things . l. ch. just . how shall any man prove another mans malice , which is a thing that lies only in a mans mind ? how should any man know that i am malicious against the government , but by my actions ? mr. williams . i lay it before your lordship and the jury . l. ch. j. no proof can be expected , but what the nature of every thing will bear . mr. williams . then i pray this , my lord , that i may be at liberty next term if we be convicted to urge this , and observe in mitigation of the punishment , that there was nothing of these things proved . l. ch. j. urge what you can in its proper time , but offer nothing here but what is fit to be offered . mr. williams . here are mentioned in this information , ( though it be by way of inducement , yet they must be proved ) things that are matters of record , but they have proved none of them . l.ch. j. have you any of those records here , the convictions of my lord russel and colonel sidney ? mr. recorder . those things are so well known , i suppose they will not contest them . mr. williams . sir , i must lay hold on all advantages for my client . you have made them part of your case , pray prove them . mr. recorder . truly , my lord , we did not think they would have made that any question , and we have them not here . they know it well enough to be true . lord ch. just . if you have them not here , go and find them ; if they insist upon it , you must prove them . i will stay till you fetch them . mr. williams . my lord , we would not hinder your lordships business . — lord ch. just . no , no , it will be no hindrance , i will do something else in the mean time . this is a cause of publick example and consequence , and i will give it all the fair hearing i can . mr. williams . my lord , if you please there is i suppose no such haste of trying this cause now , to hinder business and keep you here longer than needs . this cause may as well be tryed the beginning of next term. lord ch. just . no , no , i will make an end of it now , if i stay never so long for it ; indeed the defendant says , i am down in the mouth : 't is true , i have got a little hoarsness , but i thank god , my heart is not down , nor i hope never will be to serve the government . mr. williams . if they will , they shall find the letters without the records . mr. jones . no , no , we must have the records , though it is true , it is but matter of form , yet we must prove our whole case . lord ch. just . well , i will stay till they are fetched . let the jury stand by , and i will go on and try another cause , and in the mean time , fetch these records . do not make two journeys , but bring all that are mentioned in the record . then the jury were set by , and the court went on in some other causes , and about an hour and a half after , the records were brought , and this cause was resumed , and proceeded thus . lord ch. just . well come , have you those records now ? mr. recorder . yes , swear mr. tindal . which was done . is that a true copy ? mr. tindal . yes , it is a true copy of the indictment , conviction and attainder of my lord russel . i examined it with mr. tanner . lord ch. just . well , put it in . and then a word of it was read by the clerk. mr. recorder . and here is the record it self of the attainder of col. sidney . which was some part of it read also . lord ch. just . what say you now to it , gentlemen , for the defendant ? mr. thompson . my lord , i have nothing more to say , than has been said . lord ch. just . all this was well enough known . mr. jones . ay , but they would give the court all the trouble they could , by making them send for that , which they could not deny . lord ch. just . gentlemen of the jury , here is an information exhibited against sir samuel bernardiston , and the information sets forth this matter . it doth take notice of a horrid conspiracy , a damnable conspiracy , lately hatched and set on foot for the destruction of the king , and for the subversion of the government , that there were divers persons who were indicted , and stood convicted , and were afterwards executed for this horrid conspiracy . among the rest , there is notice taken of my lord russel for one , and colonel sidney , ( he went by that name , algernon sidney i mean ) for another , to be two of those conspirators that were ingaged in that damnable conspiracy for the destruction of the king , and subversion of the government . now gentlemen , that these persons according to the inducement of this information , were so indicted , so attainted and executed ( as far forth as is recited in the information ) is proved to you by the two records , which the counsel on the other side insisted to have shewn , and which have been now produced . the one is sworn to be a true copy of the conviction and attainder of my lord russel , and the other which they produced was the record it self of the conviction and attainder of sidney . so that , as to that part it is plain , they were convicted and attainted , both the one and the other , as actors in that hellish plot. the next thing , gentlemen , and which was so much insisted upon by the defendants counsel , is this : the information takes notice that the defendant sir samuel bernardiston , being a man of a factious , seditious , disaffected temper towards the government , a man of ill principles , in order to disturb , disquiet , and discompose the government , he did cause several letters , four in number , to be writ and published , which letters have been read unto you . it hath been objected , that in as much as the words , falsly , seditiously , malitiously , factiously , and the like words are in the information , they would have you believe , that there being no evidence of any such thing , as faction , malice and sedition , or that the man did it malitiously , and advisedly and seditiously ( which are the words in the premises , as i may call them , or the preamble of the information ) therefore they must be acquitted of that part . now as to that , i told them then , and tell you now , gentlemen , that no man living can discover the malitious evil designs and intentions of any other man , so as to give evidence of them , but by their words and actions . no man can prove what i intend , but by my words and actions . therefore if one doth compass and imagine the death of the king , that by our law , is high treason ; but whether or no he be guilty of this treason , so as to be convicted of it by another , is not proveable , or discoverable , but by some words or actions , whereby the imagination may be manifested . and therefore my imagining , my compassing , which is private in my own mind , must be submitted to the judgment that reason and the law passeth upon my words or actions , and then the action it self being proved , that discovers with what mind the thing was done ; as in the case i put before to the counsel . suppose any man without provocation kill another , the words of the indictment are , that he did it malitiously , feloniously , not having the fear of god before his eyes , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil . now all these things , whether he had the fear of god before his eyes , or not ; or whether he were moved by the instigation of the devil , and of his malice fore-thought or no ; these cannot be known , till they come to be proved by the action that is done . so that in case any person doth write libels , or publish any expressions which in themselves carry sedition and faction , and ill will towards the government ; i cannot tell well how to express it otherwise in his accusation , than by such words , that he did it seditiously , factiously , and malitiously . and the proof of the thing it self , proves the evil mind it was done with . if then , gentlemen , you believe the defendant , sir samuel bernardiston , did write and publish these letters , that is proof enough of the words , malitiously , seditiously , and factiously , laid in the information . the letters are factious , seditious , and malitious letters , and as base as the worst of mankind ( though he had had all the provocation that ever could be given a man to libel another ) could ever have invented . and let sir samuel bernardiston put it under the countenance , or under the umbrage , or under the enamel of his zeal for the true protestant religion , if he will ; or if he have a mind to it , to give himself any fine name , by calling himself one of the sober party , or the godly party , or the upright party ; let him gild himself , and paint himself as he pleaseth , yet the inside is rotten , and 't is factious and seditious at the bottom to all intents and purposes whatsoever . and if he be guilty of it , as you gentlemen are to try and consider , the greater the man is , the greater the crime , and the more understanding he has , the more malitious he seems to be : for your little ordinary sort of people , that are of common mean understanding , they may be wheedled and drawn in , and surprized into such things ; but men of a publick figure , and of some value in the world , that have been taken to be men of the greatest interest and reputation in a party , it cannot be thought a sudden surprize upon them , no 't is a work of time and thought , 't is a thing fixed in his very nature , and it shews so much venome , as would make one think the whole mass of his blood were corrupted . i had thought the act of oblivion might have put sir samuel bernardiston in mind , that it was not fit any more to go down to white-hall , to make uproars , and tumults , and hubbub 's . but here is the matter that he now is accused of , and here is in it malice against the king , malice against the government , malice against both church and state , malice against any man that bears any share in the government , indeed malice against all mankind that are not of the same perswasion with those bloody miscreants , ( i cannot give them a milder name ) i mean the conspirators in the late damnable conspiracy , some of whom have been attainted and executed for it . here is the sanctifying of traitors , that were justly sentenced to execution according to the law of the land , and at the same time there is joyned with it the most inveterate insinuation against the government that can be , as though the king was prevailed with upon a sham protestant plot , to do things in order to destroy the government it self , and every one of the sober party , as they call themselves . for these persons could not have suffered , but as condemned according to the rules of law , but these letters carry an insinuation as if they were cut off by a sham-trick and design . for after the good news of the reprieve of sidney was contradicted , the warrant for his execution is taken notice of , and you see the manner of expression that is used , their party has prevailed , as though the putting the laws in execution , and hanging of traitors , were such a thing , that a party must be set up to prevail to do it , and mankind must be divided into parties , their party and our party , and the contrary party , they have prevailed , and truly now our party , the sober party , as he calls it , are in a very sad condition . then here is , as i said , the sainting of two horrid conspirators ; here is the l. russel sainted , that blessed martyr , my l. russel , that good man , that excellent protestant , he is lamented , and what an extraordinary man he was , who was fairly tryed , and justly convicted and attainted , for having a hand in this horrid conspiracy against the life of the king , and his dearest brother his royal highness , and for the subversion of the government . and here is mr. sidney sainted , what an extraordinary man he was ? yes surely , he was a very good man , because you may some of you remember , or have read the history of those times , and know what share mr. sidney had in that black and horrid villany , that cursed treason and murder , the murder i mean of king charles the first of blessed memory , a shame to religion it self , a perpetual reproach to the island we live in , to think that a prince should be brought by pretended methods of law and justice to such an end at his own palace . and 't is a shame to think , that such bloody miscreants should be sainted and lamented , who had any hand in that horrid murder and treason , and who to their dying minutes , when they were upon the brink of eternity , and just stepping into another world , could confidently bless god for their being ingaged in that good cause , ( as they call it ) which was the rebellion , which brought that blessed martyr to his death . it is high time for all mankind , that have any christianity or sense of heaven or hell , to bestir themselves , to rid the nation of such caterpillars , such monsters of villany as these are . nay , in these very letters is contained the very language of that cursed murderer and traitor walcot himself , that god almighty in his own time would raise up instruments . i know , gentlemen , you have heard and read what that bloody traitor said to that effect ; and you hear what expressions like it are in these letters , i am sorry for the death of our friend , honest mr. john wright , but god can easily raise up instruments to do his own work ; the very language of walcot . and i would have you take notice of it mr. blackerby , for i would have you take warning by these things . speaking to a gentleman that was taking notes . mr. blackerby . my lord , i have neither said nor done any thing that should give you occasion to speak thus to me . lord ch. just . these letters tell you , god will be sure to raise up instruments , but what instruments do they mean ? instruments of rebellion , and faction , and sedition , which they most falsly call , his own work . for it is that monstrous sin rebellion that they mean by it , instruments of treason , under pretence of fighting for god almighty they would fain be fighting against the government . it was the language of the former times , wherewith they destroyed the best of kings , and subverted the best of governments for a time , and were very near having totally destroyed three kingdoms , under pretence of doing god good service . and when once a people pursue such principles , and under the pretence of religion , endeavour to destroy monarchy and government it self , it is high time for all honest men to look about them . nay , and you may observe , gentlemen , another thing in these letters , it is not only the destruction of the civil government , the king and those that are in authority near him that are aimed at , but all persons that come with humble representations of their loyalty to him , all that address themselves to the king to shew their duty , and their dislike of that damnable design and conspiracy against him. for now ( says sir samuel bernardiston ) all the sham plot is quite blown off , and we cannot find any here , 't is lost except you can find it among the addressers and abhorrers in the countrey , or among a parcel of clergy-men . — so that all mankind , that ever thought themselves obliged to congratulate that blessed and happy deliverance , either to own our thankfulness to god for it , to whom we owe more than we are able to pay for his great mercy to us therein , or to express our joy to the king , in humble addresses , congratulating his deliverance from the horrid conspiracy lately designed against him , his brother , and the government ; these gentlemen , because they are loyal subjects , and desire to shew themselves so , must be branded with the names of abhorrers , torys , addressers , sham-plotters , and all the ignominy they can lay upon them . this shews it was not only aimed at the civil magistracy , but at all that dare be honest and oppose faction and rebellion . as for any thing that he has said of me , sir samuel bernardiston shall write and speak of me as long as he pleases . but though he says , i am down in the mouth ; it is true , i have a little lost my tongue by my cold , yet i hope i shall never lose my heart nor spirit to serve the government , nor forbear to use my utmost diligence to see that such offenders as these persons , that entertain principles so destructive to the government , be brought to condign punishment . and be they who they will , were they my own brothers , i should be of the same mind , and in that mind i hope in god i shall live and dy . gentlemen , the question before you is , whether the defendant be guilty of writing these malicious , seditious letters ; for that they are malicious and factious , no honest man can doubt in the least , and i do not find that the counsell for the defendant do offer to say any thing in defence of the letters , or can say , but that they are as venomous malicious , seditious , factious , tumultuous letters as can be written , and i must tell you , tread very near upon the borders of high treason it self . i am sure i may venture to call it cozen german to high treason . now that he did write and publish them , you have this proof before you : mr. blathwaite tells you , that sir samuel did own three of them , acknowledge them to be his own writing before his sacred majesty in council . atterbury the messenger says , he was by too when he did before the king acknowledge the writing of those three letters . as to the superscription to one of those three letters , you have the testimony of osland , the young man that lived with sir samuel bernardiston , he swears he writ it by his direction , being his servant . and as to the fourth letter , this young man does directly swear , that the original he copied it by ( for it is his writing ) he had from sir samuel bernardiston , and 't was of sir samuel's own writing , ( which he knows well , being acquainted with his hand ) and that sir samuel expresly directed him to copy it out , which he did by his command , and this is the same letter ; and so though 't is not under his hand , yet it is under his mans , and written by his direction . and he says he does believe the other three to be his hand-writing . so as to the dictating and writing of these letters , you have as full and as plain a proof as can be made . and as to his publishing of them , which is another part of the information , and of which mr. williams said there was no proof , i would say but this to you . is it not very preposterous , absurd and sensless , to think that ever it should enter into any mans imagination , that sir samuel bernardiston would take such a wonderful deal of pains and care to write these letters to sir philip skippon , and to the other two men , to tell them of his endeavours to take off mr. kedders scruples , and perswade him to go down to ipswich , and to desire them to take care of the sober party , and endeavour to get sober men into play , and all will do well , and that the duke of monmouth had denyed all the plot , and so given the lye to the king and the courts of justice , and now there was a door opened for sober men to come in , and god would raise up instruments , and the sober party will up again . do you think , i say , he would write all this fustian stuff , ( for i can call it no better than stuff , though it be very malicious stuff ) and carry to his man to copy out , and superscribe them and seal them , only to put them in his pocket ? if you can believe this , upon my word you have a faith able to remove great mountains ; but i assure you my faith cannot get to that strength . but for further proof of the publishing , you hear what the young man that was the defendants servant says . he tlles you the usual way of dealing with sir samuel's letters was this , there was a window near sir samuel's closet , and when the letters were sealed up , they were used to be put there in order that the boy according to the usual course might carry them to the post-house . and he doth believe these letters ( though he cannot particularly and positively speak to them ) were so used . besides all this , you have it by atterbury positively sworn , that about the same time that sir samuel bernardiston did acknowledge before the king , that he writ those letters , being in his custody , he did say they were sent to the post-house , and he wondred how they came by ' em . that proves it was done by his privity . and beyond all there is this circumstance , that the thing speaks it self , they are directed to men at ipswich , where sir samuel bernardiston is known to have a correspondence , they take notice of the receipt of letters from thence , and of the death of mr. wright , mentioned in those letters , which shews them to be answers to letters received , and must not these think you be sent , but kept still in his pocket ? there is notice also taken in them , of their country affairs : though they seemed to have met with some disappointment in such a business about mr. kedder , yet they were resolved to go on , and desires them to communicate this business of mr. kedder and dr. clegitt , to such and such of our friends , and desire them to bestir themselves , and get in sober men , such as mr. kedder among them . for it is mightily for our advantage , that there should be sober men brought into play at ipswich , and pray be sure to keep the sober party up . these things in their own nature speak , that these letters were intended and written , in order to preserve a correspondence between those of the sober party in ipswich , and their friends here , and therefore you may easily conclude what was to be done with them . so that , gentlemen , this information surely ( if ever any was ) is fully proved , as it is laid in all the parts of it . i would not have given you so much trouble at this time in an affair of this nature , that has been so evidently proved , because your question that you are to try , is only , whether the defendant be guilty of this offence , or not guilty ? ( you are not to inflict the penalty , that is the province of the court above ; ) but only because i see it is a matter of great expectation and consequence . i would not we should be gulled twice in one age , by the self-same men , and the self-same way , into the same treason and rebellion , and all those other mischiefs , that dreadful chaos and state of confusion , misery and destruction , that we were brought into in the late times . and that has made me take so much notice now in this place of the tendency of things of this nature , that we may learn to beware of , and know these men that carry sheeps cloathing , pretend zeal and religion , but their insides are wolves . they are traitors in their minds , whatsoever they are in their outward pretences . then the jury laid their heads together in the place where they stood , and being presently after agreed upon their verdict , the foreman gave it in , that the defendant sir samuel bernardiston was guilty of the offence and misdemeanour charged on him by the information . which verdict was recorded by the clerk. finis . a full and true account of the proceedings at the sessions of oyer and terminer, holden for the city of london, county of middlesex, and goal-delivery of newgate; which began at the sessions-house in the old-bayly, on thursday, iune st. and ended on fryday, iune d. wherein is contained the tryal of many notorious malefactors, for murders, fellonies, burglary, and other misdemeanours, but more especially the tryal of jane kent for witch-craft. together, with the names of those that received sentence of death, the number of those burn'd in the hand, transported, and vvhip'd. as likewise some proceedings in relation to the persons that violently took the lady out of the coach on hounslow-heath. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing f estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a full and true account of the proceedings at the sessions of oyer and terminer, holden for the city of london, county of middlesex, and goal-delivery of newgate; which began at the sessions-house in the old-bayly, on thursday, iune st. and ended on fryday, iune d. wherein is contained the tryal of many notorious malefactors, for murders, fellonies, burglary, and other misdemeanours, but more especially the tryal of jane kent for witch-craft. together, with the names of those that received sentence of death, the number of those burn'd in the hand, transported, and vvhip'd. as likewise some proceedings in relation to the persons that violently took the lady out of the coach on hounslow-heath. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) p. printed for t. benskin, [[london] : ] caption title. place of publication from wing; printer's name and publication date from colophon. reproduction of the original in the lincloln's inn library, london. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng crime -- england -- early works to . criminals -- england -- early works to . trials -- england -- early works to . trials (witchcraft) -- england -- early works to . witchcraft -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a full and true account of the proceedings at the sessions of oyer and terminer , holden for the city of london , county of middlesex , and goal-delivery of newgate ; which began at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , on thursday , iune st . and ended on fryday , iune d . . wherein is con●ain●d the tryal of many notorious malefactors , for murders , fellonies , burglary , and other misdemeanours , but more especially the tryal of iane kent for witch-craft . together , with the names of those that received sentence of death , the number of those burn'd in the hand , transported , and vvhip'd . as likewise some proceedings in relation to the persons that violently took the lady out of the coach on hounslow-heath . london , iune st . . this day the sessions of oyer and terminer , began at the sessions-house in old bayly , holden there for the city of london , county of middlesex , and goal-delivery of newgate , until the d. of the aforesaid instant , where the proceedings were as followeth . elizabeth hunt was indicted for picking the pocket of mary rome , of shillings ; the manner ( as it appeared to be upon evidence ) was thus : the prosecutor going through a narrow lane in cheapside , to avoid being hurt by a coach that was coming stood up in a door way , whereupon the prisoner and two more , supposed to be of her gang , shoulder'd her up , and in the mean while the prisoner picked her pocket , delivering the money to the comrades , who went off with it ; but the prosecutor immediately perceiving that she was robbed , apprehended the prisoner , who desired her to make no noise and she would give her satisfaction , and thereupon pulled out a considerable parcel of money , but upon her tryal she denied it , but the proofs being plain , not only by another witness , but also by her former confession , she was found guilty . katherine cook was indicted for stealing seaven silver spoons from sir robert iason , in the parish of st. dunstans in the west ; she at that time living with him in the nature of a servant , which appeared upon evidence thus : the spoons which were judg'd to the value of pounds , being used at dinner , they were delivered to her to make clean , when as she carried them into the pantry , from whence she alledged , they were conveyed by a woman that came in to ask whether such a person did not live there , naming a strange name ; but the witness swore , that upon her masters charging her with the fellony , she offered to pay one half of the value ; but she producing several witnesses to testifie her honesty and good behaviour in her former services , and there being no positive proof that she stole them , she was acquitted . lydia littleworth was tryed for robbing william theed her master , in the parish of st. michaels in the querry , on the th . of may last , and taking from him four broad pieces of gold , four guinnies , three and twenty shillings in silver , four gold rings , and some other things , the which she delivered to a woman to keep for her , and upon inquiry absolutely denied the fact ; but the woman suspecting she had stole the gold , made inquiry , so that the evidence being plain against her , she in court confessed that she took the money , expressing a great deal of sorrow for her wickedness , and upon the jury's return of their verdict , she was found guilty . ann bland had an indictment preferred against her , for taking three shillings privily from the person of elizabeth bennet , a butchers wife , on the th . of may last , the circumstances , as they appeared upon oath , being these : the prisoner coming to her stall in honey-lane-market , under pretence of buying a neck of veal , began to question the sweetness of it , desiring the prosecutor to smell , the which whilst she was doing , the prisoner watching her opportunity , put her hand into her apron-pocket , and taking her money departed ; but within a few hours , she was taken doing such another exploit ; to this she pleaded innocence , but it plainly appearing she was an old offender , and the prosecutor swearing positively that she was the woman that robbed her , the jury found her guilty . iohn cotton of the parish of st. mary matpellier , otherwise white-chappel , was indicted for stealing a hood and scarfe from iudith wheeler ; whereupon ( having well learnt his lesson in newgate ) he pleaded guilty to that and all other indictments within the benefit of the clergy . abraham kent was tryed for stealing iron bolts for ships and other things , from iames yeames of wapping , on the th . of april last ; one of them upon evidence , appearing to be found in his breeches , yet he denied that he ever stole any , but that coming through the yard , he gathered up some chips , amongst which was the bolt ; then being demanded why he concealed it in his breeches , he alledged that his breeches being ragged , it droped into them contrary to his knowledge ; but these silly excuses excused him not , for it appearing that he was a notorious pilferer , the jury brought him in guilty . thomas hermitage was indicted for robbing the lady williamses house on the th . of april , and taking thence two feather-beds , a pair of grates , coverleds , carpets , and linnen , to a considerable value , which upon search , were found at a broakers , where he had disposed of them , whereupon he pleaded guilty to the indictment . robert sutor , late servant to the earl of arglass , deceased , was indicted for robbing william crelling his lords gentleman , by breaking open a door , and taking thence a pormantle , in which was a gold pendilum watch , valued at pounds , a gold locket and gold buttons , pieces of broad gold , guinnies , shillings in silver , a siver-hilted sword , and other things of value , taking them from the aforesaid earls house in druery-lane , on the the th . past , for which , upon his being apprehended , he confessed that he was privy to the robbery , but that it was not he that committed it , but an irish man whom he named , alledging that he renched the door with a fork , and then taking the pormantle , perswaded him to go with him , which he consented to , and that for his share he gave him the watch and guinnies , which watch was taken about him , but with the money he had bought a horse , but upon his tryal he at first denied what he had said ; but finding the evidence to be strong against him , he again confessed the fact , and thereupon was found guilty . a woman was tryed for stealing several pieces of silk out of a shop in pater-noster-row , on the th . of may last , which being taken about her e're she could dispose of it , notwithstanding she pleaded that they were given her by a strange woman ; that excuse prevailed not , for she was found guilty . william stafford a life-guard-man , was indicted for killng mr. roundwaite , another of the guards , on the th . of may last , which upon evidence , appeared as followeth : the prisoner and the deceased came into a field near knightsbridge , where they equally drew , and made several passes at each other , and often pausing , fought again , which they continued till the deceased received seven wounds , one of which was under the left pap , inches , insomuch that he fell to the ground ; whereupon the prisoner walked off , but being pursued , was taken , the prisoner pleaded that he came to take a friendly walk with the deceased , and that being in the fields , the deceased drew upon him , and that what he did was in the defence of his life ; and indeed , there being no kind of former malice between them proved in court , the prisoner was found guilty of mans-slaughter only . iane kent , a woman of about years of age , was indicted for witch-craft , and using several diabolick arts , whereby she compassed the death of one elizabeth chamblet , a girl about years of age ; the father of the deceased gave evidence , that she first bewitched his swine , by reason she having bargained with him for two pigs , which he refused to deliver her without money ; and that a while after his daughter fell into a most piteous condition , swelling all over her body , which was discoloured after a strange rate : he farther deposed , that she also bewitched his wife , and that after the death of his daughter , he went to one dr. ha●●ks in spittle-fields , who advised him to take a quart of his wives water , the pairing of her nails , some of her hair , and such like , and boyl them , which he did , in a pipkin , at which time he swore he heard the prisoners voice at his door , and that she screimed out as if she were murdered , and that the next day she appeared to be much swelled and bloated : a woman that searched her likewise swore , that she had a teat on her back , and unusual holes behind her ears : a coach-man likewise swore , that upon his refusing to carry her and her goods , his coach overthrew ; but she producing evidence that she had lived honestly , and was a great pains-taker , and that she went to church , with many other circumstances , the jury found her not guilty . captain pursell who was lately committed to newgate , upon the account of violently forcing mrs. selleger out of her coach , upon hounslow-heath , petitioned the court that he might be admitted of bail ; but the court replyed , there was an indictment intended against him for fellony ; upon which , the gentleman that brought the petition , desired that he might be tryed , whereupon the court replyed , if the evidence for the king were ready he might . ann hi● was indicted for robbing the house of iane kinthorne , in the parish of st. gilis's in the fields , about two years since , but it appearing that the prisoner had taken them into her custody , by order of the prosecutor , to secure them from being taken by the landlord for rent , the jury acquitted the prisoner , and the prosecutor received a 〈…〉 . iohn welling , a youth about years of age , was in●icted for picking a gentlewomans pocket in honey-lane , of shillings , which appearing plain , he was found guilty . iohn iohnson was indicted for breaking open the chamber of chistopher turner , a gentleman of the temple , on the th . of may last , and for assaulting a laundress that was then in the chamber where it was , proved that he broke open the chamber door with an iron , after he had attempted to pick the lock , and found it bolted ; then entring and finding the laundress there , he swore an oath that he was betrayed , yet pulled out a pistol , he set it to her breast , and bid her kneel , and swear she would not discover him , which at present she promised , but afterwards shutting her self into a study , and cryed out , so that he being pursued was taken with much difficulty , and now being found guilty , was fined pounds . henry arnold was tryed for picking the pocket of one vox , of a watch , and silver tobacco-box , but for want of evidence , the iury acquited him . iohn lush was likewise indicted for breaking open the chamber of squire hoyle , in the temple , and stealing silk curtains and other things , to the worth of above l. for which he was found guilty . at this most remarkable session elizabeth hunt , lydia littleworth , ann bland , and iohn welling received sentence of death . thomas michael , iohn cotton , thomas hermitage , edward stafford , robert sutor , and thomas lush , were burnt in the hand iohn spittle ordered for transportation , iohn austin and abraham kent to be whip'● and iohn iohnson fined ● pounds . printed for ● . 〈◊〉 . . the case of tho. dangerfield with some remarkable passages that happened at the tryals of elizabeth cellier, the popish midwife, and the earl of castlemain, at the kings-bench bar at westminster, before sir will. scroggs kt, lord chief justice, &c. in the month of june, : together with divers informations never yet publisht, john gadbury his testimony, with all its evasions, some points of law insisted upon by the king & prisoners counsel; and the chief justice his opinion given therein, the manner and occasion of dangerfield's commitment to prison, and also of his being discharged again and some animadversions upon the l.c.j. words / written by the hand of an indifferent person. dangerfield, thomas, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing c estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the case of tho. dangerfield with some remarkable passages that happened at the tryals of elizabeth cellier, the popish midwife, and the earl of castlemain, at the kings-bench bar at westminster, before sir will. scroggs kt, lord chief justice, &c. in the month of june, : together with divers informations never yet publisht, john gadbury his testimony, with all its evasions, some points of law insisted upon by the king & prisoners counsel; and the chief justice his opinion given therein, the manner and occasion of dangerfield's commitment to prison, and also of his being discharged again and some animadversions upon the l.c.j. words / written by the hand of an indifferent person. dangerfield, thomas, ?- . p. printed for the author, london : . reproduction of original in bristol public library, bristol, england. attributed to thomas dangerfield. cf. bm. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng cellier, elizabeth, fl. . castlemaine, roger palmer, -- earl of, - . gadbury, john, - . trials (treason) -- great britain. sham plot. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - taryn hakala sampled and proofread - taryn hakala text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the case of tho. dangerfield : with some remarkable passages that happened at the tryals of elizabeth cellier the popish midwife , and the earl of castlemain , at the kings-bench-bar at westminster , before sir will. scroggs kt , lord chief justice , &c. in the month of june , . together with . divers informations never yet publisht . . john gadbury his testimony , with all its evasions . . some points of law insisted upon by the king & prisoners counsel ; and the chief justice his opinion given therein . . the manner and occasion of dangerfield's commitment to prison , and also of his being discharged again . and . some animadversions upon the l. c. j. words . written by the hand of an indifferent person . london : printed for the author . . the case , &c. he that goes about to justifie an ill act of his own , shall not onely loose his end , but heighten and add to the former d●sgraces of his life . and therefore it would be but a vain attempt sor any person of ordinary prudence and common reason to endeavour such a thing . but when a man has done an act applauded by the approbation of many sober persons , and suffers only the reproaches of a few , and most of those his enemies , it is but the dictate of self-preservation to remove the weight that oppresseth him . i have made my self the publick discourse , and in some measure the publick expectation both of town and country , and began to do those things for which his majesty was most graciously pleased to deem me worthy his ( never-to-be-forgotten ) favour ; for this reason i cannot think my self safe from the ill opinion even of the best of my friends , should i by a neglectful and careless silence , submit my self to be overborn by those violences and disgraces that have been put upon me in the pursuit of my gratitude for the greatest obligation that could be received from a most benign and royal bounty . therefore for the satisfaction of the world , and to vindicate my self , without any thoughts of prejudice or revenge , i hold it but an act of common justice to my friends and my self , to make a faithful , and render a true account , of the most remarkable passages in fact , that concerned the tryal of mrs cellier , against whom i thought i was to have been a witness , and had refreshed and recollected my thoughts to that purpose . in the next place i shall add some few observations upon the objections made against me and my testimony , and then leave it to all unbiassed persons to judge of my intended both loyalty and integrity therein . the charge itself i brought against mrs cellier was of a high nature , and form'd into an indictment from the relation which follows , given in by my self , that had been the chief actor in the whole concern by her means . about the latter end of march , in the year . mrs cellier came to me then a prisoner in newgate , ( that being the first time i ever saw her ) from which place in about a months time she obtained my discharge . i was no sooner out from thence , but i was arrested and carried to the counter , whither mrs cellier sent her servant , who told me , that if i could forthwith obtain my liberty , her mistress would purchase it at any rate , for that there was business ordered me to undertake the tuesday following ; and if i could not get out before that day , she could not tell if ever i should be freed by her or not . thereupon i removed my self to the kings-bench by mrs celliers assistance , who after i had been there about two days came to me , and giving me some money for the present , told me , i should have a weekly allowance for my immediate expences , but that i should not long continue there . at the same time she added further , that i might do as much service there , as if i were forth , by observing one stroud a prisoner there , who , as she said , knew much of the life and conversation of mr. bedlow ; and withal , commended me to the advice of two priests , then prisoners also there , which i was to take for the more secure management of that business . at the same time likewise mrs celliers ordered me to write to one blazedale an apothecary , for such ingredients as i should have occasion , for to lay the said stroud in a trance , whereby i might the better accomplish the defign , which was , of getting some papers in his custody , which were reported to concern mr. bedlow in his evidence . some time after , as well by order from mrs cellier as others , i was directed to compound and discharge my debts ; in pursuance whereof i was furnished with money , which not being sufficient to procure my liberty , i prevailed with a waiter to go with me to mrs celliers house , and by her instructions left at home , i went from thence to powis house , where i found her , and where i received as much more as quite discharged me ; so that in four hours after she brought me into the presence of the lady powis ; who together with her self , returned me thanks for my diligence in that business of mr. stroud . mrs cellier was also present when the lady powis sent me to peterly with a pacquet , and was the person the lady intrusted to make up the pacquet . mrs cellier was also present when i returned from peterly , and delivered the pacquet which i brougbt from thence to the lady powis & she was likewise by , when the lady read a letter openly to this effect , ( which i brought from the priest mr. jeane in the above-mentioned pacquet . ) good store of pamphlets must be wrote and spread abroad , persons must be imployed to go to coffee-houses and rail against the presbyterians , and if they meet with any who offer to contend , matters of treason may be ealy laid to their charge , and so have them secured . but there must be many persons imployed in these matters , and it will be best not to let them know one another , nor any one singly to know more than his part . some short time after there was a settlement made for me among the lords in the tower , in consideration of my expences ; and amongst the rest 't was ordered , mrs cellier should have ten shillings a week for my dyet , which was constantly paid her . mrs cellier was the person also who disbnrsed money to get lane a confederate against doctor oates out of prison , the charges of which amounted to about twenty pound . he was also brought to powis-house , and there altered his name , as well by the order of mrs cellier as others ; and she was allowed ten shillings a week for his dyet also . mrs cellier was the person that first imployed me to go to coffee-houses , and told me it was by order of the lords in the tower , that i should disperse pamphlets , and raise discourses to this effect ; that sir edmondbury godfrey was murdered by the e. of s's order , who joyned with the presbyterians to overthrow the catholicks . mrs cellier imployed persons to write copies of the letters and lists of the names that came from nevil a prisoner in the kings-bench , and sometimes she and i put our helping hands , and both wrote ; which letters were to the same effect with those that were taken in colonel mansels chamber , and were all by some means or other to be conveyed into the houses of all the most considerable presbyterians , for under that notion , all persons were comprized which were not for promoting the catholick interest : and this mrs cellier declared to me at powis house , which was our general rendezvous for near two months . mrs cellier was present at another time , when the lady powis read a letter which came from brussels , the effect whereof was thus . if you had taken this course sooner , much blood might have been saved ; but i doubt 't is now too late , and fear that the st. omers testimonies having been so baffled , has much impaired our endeavours : yet to my power i will assist , and do advise you to go on . thomas holder . about the latter end of july , mrs cellier remov'd from powis-house to her own habitation , whither i also went in a short time , some while after having been rebuked by the lord castlemain , for refusing the matter proposed to me in the tower , no less than to kill his most sacred majesty . i came home and told mrs cellier that the lord c. was displeased with me . oh , said she , 't is his lordships custom to fall out one hour , and be friends the next , and then advised me to go to confession , and receive the sacrament of father sharp at wild-house , which i did , and there received the same rebuke from the said father , for refusing the said proposal in the tower. at another time mrs cellier was present in her own house , when the lady powis laught at me , and said , well , well , mr. willoughby ( by which name i then went ) will be honest , and do us no hurt , i am sure . after that , having been with mr. gadbury , and from him received another rebuke for refusing that proposal to kill the king , i returned home and told mrs cellier of it , who replyed , that mr. gadbury was in his heart a very good catholique . not long after , i met the lady p. at mrs celliers house , where in the hearing of mrs cellier , she told me , i must go on with some intrigue against the duke came from flanders , to make him believe the presbyterians were plotting against the king ; and then there was a consultation between us for carrying on the design , though i was not to move till farther order . the next day mrs cellier was sent for to the tower , who upon her return , told me , i must speedily procure some persons that were well habited , to go to the coffee-houses and clubs to learn how things stood . mrs cellier was also present , when the lady p. told me , that i must stick hard against the d. of monmouth , d. of buckingham , the e. of shaftesbury , lord grey , lord howard , and others ; all which was to be done , when i went the first time to give his majesty an account of the new sham-plot , at which time i was to inform his majesty , that if he had dyed at windsor , they had posted about the town and suburbs a considerable army , with which they intended to have taken possession , and did design to bring the same to a common-wealth , and set up the d. of monmouth as head of the government : that the l. shaftesbury and others were granting out commissions to that purpose , and that i my self had a promise of one from a great presbyterian ; all which and more i told his majesty by their directions , just before his going to newmarket ; whereupon his majesty ordered me money , of which i sent an account by mrs cellier to the tower ; who at her return , advised me to beware of one colonel halsel , for that the lords fear'd he would discover me . mrs cellier carried word from me to the tower , where colonel mansel lodged , and upon her return told me , the lady p. would meet me in the afternoon at her house , as she did , and mrs cellier was present when her ladiship bid me go again to father sharp to confession , and receive the sacrament , for that i was to go in a short time after to the earl of shaftesbury . soon after mrs cellier received a letter , that that very night i must go to the said earl with this formal complement . my lord , i am a stranger to your lordship , neither introduced nor sent by any person ; but i desire to know , if it be in my power to serve you , whether i may have your lordships favour . then did mrs cellier deliver into my hand a short dagger , of which sort and fashion three or four had been brought to her , about three days before , by a virginia merchant , i being present at the same time when they were delivered to her . after i had been with the earl , upon my return home , i told mrs cellier i could not do my business , ( which was indeed to stab his lordship ) but would take some other opportunity . of all which mrs cellier sent an account to the tower , and as she told me , her self received for answer , that i should go forthwith to the king , and inform his majesty that i had been with the e. of shaftesbury , who had promised me a military imployment . then by direction i went a second time to the e. of shaftesbury ; mrs cellier furnished me then also with a dagger . but returning again without any success , as they called it , i received new orders to go to the king , and acquaint his majesty how i had been a second time with the e. of shaftesbury , and of a great quantity of papers that concerned the new plot , that were in colonel mansels chamber , for the search whereof my farther business was to pray a warrant ; which would not be granted , because i could not make such affidavit as was requisite . for which i was well scool'd , both by the lady powis and mrs cellier , who after they had told me several ways how i might have saved my oath , added withal , that i was obliged by my religion to part with my life for the good of the cause . some small time after , the lady p. came to mrs celliers house , where being all three together , the lady endeavoured to perswade me to go a third time to the earl of shaftesbury , which i refused to do ; whereupon the lady striking me gently on the hand with her fan , called me cow-hearted fellow , and said , she would go herself ; mrs cellier made answer , no , madam , that shall not be , for i will signifie to the world the bravery of our sex above the mens , and go my self and do the work . whereupon she went out of the room for a while , leaving the lady and my self together to discourse the method of putting the papers into colonel mansels room ; which papers when i had made them up , i shewed them to mrs cellier , who incouraged me to proceed , saying , she would warrant i should be well rewarded for my pains , and wish'd me good success . when i had convey'd the papers into colonel mansels room , mrs cellier came to me from the tower , and told me , i must go to the custom-house , and pretend to give intelligence of certain prohibited goods which were lodged in the colonels chamber , to the end the officers upon search might find the papers . soon after being to attend the king and mr. secretary coventry about the papers , and wanting some instructions , i went home to advise with mrs cellier , at what time i was taken by colonel warcup , one of the justices of the peace for the county of middlesex , and ingaged by bail to attend the king and councel the next day at three of the clock . upon my being brought to a hearing , i was committed to newgate , whither mrs cellier sent her maid to me , and something to my support , advising me to stand fast , promising i should want for nothing , and should be removed to the kings-bench . after which , the maid came a second time that day with a note , which ran thus . i am in custody , and if examined how i came to know you , will declare , i imployed you to get in desperate debts ; it cannot worst you . to colour which pretence , the maid also brought me two books of mrs celliers husbands concerns , and added further , that her mistress desired me to stand fast , for her life was in my hands . to this intrigue these particulars may be added . that i having told mrs cellier how i had been with the king alone at mr chiffins lodgings : oh , said she , what an opportunity have you lost ! soon after the lady powis coming in , mrs cellier told her the story ; at which the lady turning short about , with her face towards mrs cellier , said these very words , how bravely might he have killed the king , had he been provided ! that mrs cellier ordered me in our publick discourse to call the king lady mary , and the duke lady ann. that mrs cellier was one of those that ordered me to treat with mr. boyce , to try if i could corrupt him to be an evidence against prance ( a witness for the king. ) and that she was one of those that ordered me to go and treat with nicholas stubbs , in reference to recanting the charge he had laid against gifford the priest . this is the sum of the charge , without any flourishing or refining , all matter of fact , which i intended to have made good against mrs cellier , in reference to his majesties most gracious confidence which he had put in my future reality . a charge not only in my belief , but in the more venerable and sound opinion of those that had the conduct of the information , and management of the evidence , well guarded and supported by a sufficient strength of corroborating testimonies . but lest i may seem to abound too much in my own sence , here they are all in their order . let the world view them , and then give an equal sentence . john gadbury , witness . l. c. j. mr. gadbury , what do you know concerning this plot ? gad. i know nothing of it neither one way nor other . l. c. j. do you know of any contrivance of mrs celliers to kill the king ? gad. no , rather the contrary . l. c. j. do you know of any attempt to change the government ? gad. i will tell your lordship what i do know , if these gentlemen will not be too nimble for me , ( viz. the kings councel . ) i have suffered a great deal of prejudice of late in relation to a plot , but god is my witness , i know none , unless it were a plot to bring sir robert peyton over to the kings interest . that plot i had some concern in , and had some knowledge of mrs celliers concern in it , and she was so far from doing any thing against the kings interest , that she was willing to bring over with him three gentlemen turned out of commission when sir robert was ; so that how she could be acting for the king and against the king at the same time , i do not understand . l. c. j. mr. gadbury , you are a man of letters , pray will you give your testimony of the things you do know in relation to mrs cellier . gad. mrs cellier was not committed upon my accusation , therefore i hoped she might have been tryed without my testimony . but when i was in danger of my life , when i lay in the gate-house , and mrs cellier was reported to be a third witness against me , i raked up every trifle . but if i had thought it treason , i would have discovered it before . and as to that particular business concerning mr. smith a school-master , that smith sometime since did come to me , being my old acquaintance , to ask my advice in it , which was to go to the lords in the tower. i asked him what to do ? saith he , i can say enough against dr. oates to serve them and take off his evidence ; and asked me if he should do it . by no means , mr. smith , said i. mrs cellier afterwards told me , this smith and one phillips were willing to tell some stories or other of mr. oates and mr. bedlow and i told her this very story ; saith she , you being acquainted with him , it is possible you may do some good upon him ; and saith she , i had as lieve as ten guineys that you would do it : she said she did not care if she had been at the charge of ten guineys , if he would be honest and discover the truth . l. c. j. did she say she heard mr. dangerfield talk of a non-conformist plot , that would take off the popish plot ? gad. she said she had heard dangerfield say there was a non-conformist plot , and that he was to have a commission among them ; and i think she said she had heard him say , that he hoped under the colour of that , the popish plot would go on . l. c. j. did she say it of her own accord , that she hoped that would carry on the popish plot ? gad. my lord , i cannot remember particulars ; i have no reason to spare her , but i am unwilling to speak any thing that is contrary to truth , though she has done me the greatest injury in the world . l. c. j. how came you to talk of a non-conformist plot . god. it was onely common discourse as it was at coffee-houses . record . had you heard it before that she spake of it , because you say it was common ? gad. no , not till she spake of it . l. c. j. did mrs cellier tell you of any popish priests or jesuits coming hither from beyond the seas ? gad. upon the going over of one clay , i think she did say she heard there were some more coming over . l. c. j. what to do ? gad. god knows that . l. c. j. did she speak of any plot or contrivance to kill the king ? gad. no , she was always an enemy to plots , or else i would not have kept her company . l. c. j. did she say there were , or that she heard there were several priests and jesuits coming over ? gad. my lord , i think she said she heard it . i said several times the popish plotters would be destroyed ; but she answered , she was afraid the nation would be destroyed first . l. c. j. did she say the nation would be destroyed first ? i ask you once more ; we must try people according to oaths ; by the oath you have taken , when you said the popish plotters would be destroyed , what answer did she make ? gad. she said she was afraid the nation would be so , because she saw abundance of the best of the nation , went out into other nations to weaken our nation and spend their money ; and she feared the nation would be destroyed before them , ( viz ) the plotters . l. c. j. what discourse had you with mrs cellier passing through westminster-abbey ? gad. my lord , my memory has been exceedingly bruised ; but i remember , my lord , as i was going through the abbey in a rainy afternoon , she said , this abbey was formerly filled with benedictine monks , or something to that purpose ; and , saith she , what if it should be so again ? l. c. j. are you a protestant or a papist ? gad. a protestant , my lord. l. c. j. he talks as like a papist as can be : was it , what if it should be filled again ? gad. what if it should be again ? l. c. j. what did you say to that ? gad. i only smiled to hear a womans discourse , my lord. l. c. j. you make all the company laugh . what did she say of the temple ? gad. that the temple had been filled with friars too . l. c. j. and what then did she talk of filling it again ? what did she say concerning the temple ? gad. nothing , my lord. here mr. gadbury was going to read in his paper , which was his original information given before the king and councel ; but the court told him , that would not be allowed , but he might refresh his memory with it . l. c. j. now tell me what she said ; mr gadbury , keep it in your hand . gad. my lord , she put it by way of interrogation to feel my pulse . l. c. j. what did she say else ? gad. there was nothing but transient discourse , my lord. l. c. j. we must ask you what the truth is ; look upon your paper , and consider what you say , and consider that you are upon a solemn occasion , and are to testifie it in the presence of god almighty : i would have you tell plainly what it is , and neither to make it more , nor stifle it . gad. it was only transient discourse . l. c. j. say what it was : was it this place was once filled with benedictine monks ? gad. she said , that the abbey had been filled with benedictine monks , as the temple had with friars . j. jones . look upon your paper . you have looked upon the paper , and pra● tell us what she said ; did she say she hoped to see this place filled with benedictines ? gad. my lord , i don't remember that word hope . j. jones . how long have you been acquainted with mrs cellier ? gad. ten or a dozen years . l. c. j. did she never ask you any question about the life of the king ? gad. my lord , when the king was very ill at windsor , and she being fearful he would die , she did move the question to me . l. c. j. what question ? gad. to know whether i thought his majesty would live or no ; but it was her fear that he would not . l. c. j. had you seen the king ? gad. no , my lord. l. c. j. did she desire you to consult your art ? how then did she expect you should give her an answer from your art ? gad. from my art , my lord. l. c. j. did she desire you to consult your art how long the king would live ? gad. she did as i said . l. c. j. what did you say to that ? gad. i would not tell her . l. c. j. what answer did you make ? gad. i told her i would not meddle with it . l. c. j. she would have had you consult your art or scheme , or what ever it is , to know whether the king would live or die ? gad. it was something of that . l. c. j. and you said you would not meddle or make with it . gad. yes , my lord. l. c. j. she desired you to make a scheme ? gad. no , my lord , i cannot say she mentioned a scheme ; but she asked the question . j. ray. what else did she ask ? gad. only that question . l. c. j. how often do you think she spake of it to you ? gad. never , my lord , but when he was ill . i will not baffle any thing that may conduce to the safety of the king and kingdom . l. c. j. indeed it is very unconducible to the safety of the king and kingdom , if any go about to destroy him , and with evil intentions to ask how long he will live ; and you ought in duty to god and your soveraign to declare : did she ever make any enquiries about the kings death , more than what you have said ? gad. no more , my lord , but that she was fearful he would die . l. c. j. did she say she would go to somebody else ? gad. my lord , when she perceived me shie , saith she , i see you are afraid of me , i will go to some other astrologer . l. c. j. for what ? gad. to satisfie her curiosity , as a great many do . l. c. j. what curiosity did she ask besides this ? gad. she would ask me sometimes about the conditions of our bodies , whether they should be prosperous in the world ; and several other questions . l. c. j. were you nice in these curiosities ? gad. truly , my lord , i was shie of medling with any thing when i heard there was a talk about plots . l. c. j. was you nice to give her any satisfaction according to her hopes concerning those things you call curiosities , questioning whether she should be well fed , how many children she should have , &c. were you scrupulous in that ? gad. i think i might not be in that particular . l. c. j. how came it then that she should go to another astrologer ? gad. she asked me something about mr. dangerfield . l. c. j. for what ? gad. how to get him out of prison . l. c. j. pray you , how came she to say she would go to another astrologer ? you were not shie of answering these questions ? gad. it was something about mr. dangerfield . and , my lord , she asked me about some deeds or papers which he was to search for or seize , which concerned mr. bedlow . l. c. j. she had better have gone to one of the clerks than a conjurer for them ; but why should she go to another astrologer ? gad. because i was shie . l. c. j. did she not say when you refused to meddle with the death of the king , that she would go to another astrologer ? gad. yes , my lord , she did . l. c. j. did you do nothing for her at that time ? gad ▪ my lord , i did a scheme then , which since i found to be for mr. dangerfield ; but i knew not for what it was when i did it . l. c. j. can you apply one scheme to any body ? gad. my lord , when mrs cellier came to me , she gave me the time of a persons nativity , and i set the figure of heaven to that time , to know whether he were a person fit to be trusted , her husband being a french merchant , to get in money . l. c. j. then for ought you knew , dangerfield was a woman , and the question was , whether dangerfield was with child , and it happens to be a man ; how did it fall out ? gad. i have forgotten , my lord. l. c. j. when did you know it was for dangerfield ? gad. my lord , never before i came before the king and councel ; neither did i ever know his name before , for he went by the name of willoughby before . l. c. j. what other discourse had you with her ? did she not at any time talk of mr , dugdale ? gad. she did say she had heard of some people that were to discourse with mr. dugdale , she had heard the thing , but i do not know whether she knew any thing of it or no. l. c. j. what discourse had you about that ? gad. she told me there was a woman to go down to windsor , to beg mr. dugdales pardon , for he was penitent for what he had said in some tryal or other . whitehal , friday novemb. , . at the councel-chamber . margaret jenkinson , formerly servant to mrs cellier , swears , that she carried money from her mistress to mr. dangerfield in newgate , but does not remember how much it was . that he was afterwards in the counter , whither mrs. cellier sent this examinant with more money ; but that not being sufficient , she brought it back again , and afterwards carried what was necessary , with an order from her mistress to tell him , that business was ordered for him to do the tuesday following , and that she would purchase his liberty at any rate . but if it could not be done , she could not tell if he should ever be freed by her or not . that she did carry divers letters between dangerfield and her mistriss , but knew not what they concerned . that she did carry two small vials to him at the kings-bench , by her mistresses order ; that some time after she went again , and dangerfield desired her to bring a second vial , which she also carried . that dangerfield told her , he had made stroud drunk , having taken something that hindred himself from being in that condition , and that he gave her some notes to carry her mistress of what he had then got from stroud . margaret jenkinson . the information of john woodman of drury-lane taylor , taken upon oath the th day of november , before edmund warcup esquire . this informant saith , that he hath known mr. thomas dangerfield ever since march last past , and then went with mrs cellier to see him in newgate , where mrs cellier whispered with mr dangerfield through a grate ; and thereupon mrs cellier sent this informant with a quire of paper afterwards to mr. dangerfield , and a written paper which he was ordered to write out : and about three hours after , this informant went to mr. dangerfield for the written paper by mrs celliers order , which he carried to her at her house in arundel-street ; but what the papers contained he knoweth not . and mrs cellier confessed , she both delivered and sent money to mr. dangerfield . she sent this informant to mr. williamson , with a discharge for mr. dangerfield , for which he said he must have four pounds , and this informant supposeth that mrs cellier paid him that money . and this informant saw mr. dangerfield twice at powis-house about midsummer past , mrs cellier being with him . some papers lying upon the table there , and this informant having been in prison before that time , did receive some charity from my lady powis by mrs celliers hands ; and on occasion of returning her ladiship thanks for her charity , he saw the lady powis and mr. dangerfield at powis-house . and this informant saith , that he was acquainted with father harcourt for about twenty years last past , and wrought for him in his trade , and hath been sometime sent by mr. fenwick , mr. ireland , and others , with letters to divers places . and he hath heard there was one father sharp at wild-house , but never was certainly informed of , or knew any such person as father knollys . and this informant saith , he was once or twice with mrs cellier at the fleet , when she went to visit mr. nevil alias payne , but heard not their discourse . and this informant went two or three times with mrs cellier to the lord castlemains house at charing-cross , where this informant waited at the door ; and when she came down went away with her , but was not privy to her business . that this informant went with mrs cellier to mr. dangerfield in the kings-bench , where she discoursed with him privately about half an hour . and at another time this informant went with mrs cellier to the marshalsea to one mr. nettervile , and farther saith not . john woodman . the information of william woodman , son of the said john woodman , taken upon oath the same day . this informant saith , that he lived about six weeks with madam cellier , and left her about midsummer last past ; and when this informant liv'd there , he knew mr. willoughby alias dangerfield , who lay in powis-house , and was sent by him to the lord castlemains with a letter , who upon receipt of it , delivered forty shillings to this informant , which he delivered to madam cellier . and one time mrs sheldon sent joe her servant to madam cellier for a letter , which not being ready , this informant was afterwards sent with a letter to mrs sheldons , which letter was to be sent to windsor . another time this informant was commanded by madam cellier to go to tyburn , when mr. langhorn was executed , and was directed to stay there , and get any flesh or any other thing belonging to him . and at this informants return home , he found a bloody handkerchief , brought home , as was said , by mr. willoughby from the same place ; and there was that day at dinner , mr. cellier , mrs cellier , mr. nevil , mr. webb , mr. dormer , mr. ricaut , a virginia merchant , mr. wood , and mr. willoughby , at powis-house . and this informant was sent by madam cellier to mr. monson in the kings-bench , with letters , and ten shillings at a time in money . and he carried five shillings for her to mr. kemish ; seven shillings and six pence at a time twice to mr. netterfield in the marshalsea , who said , he was used to have ten shillings a week . another time this informant carried a letter to sir john gage in the kings-bench from madam cellier , who returned the same letter or pacquet , sealed up with his answer , as this informant supposeth . and this informant well remembers , that one time he went with mr. dangerfield to a coffee house in white-friers , and went up three pair of stairs , and there saw a gentleman , being a little blinking-man , whose hat hung over his eyes , whom mr. dangerfield saith now , was one mr. knowles a priest , who came with mr. dangerfield to powis-house in a coach , and brought a little trunk and other goods in a bag with him , and lodged two or three nights there . but being a timerous man , he would not stay , but returned again to the same house in white-friers , and carried his trunk and other goods with him : and this informant believes the said gentleman was a priest , for that he went to take the confession of one newton a painter , who dyed afterwards near the fleet upon the fleet-ditch-side , and the neighbours did suspect that there was a priest or jesuit came then to that house , and resolved to lay wait for him if he came again . and this informant saw mr. dormer twice at powis-house ; and he saw mr. webb three or four times at powis-house , where he dined with madam cellier and mr. willoughby most of the times . and this informant heard that mr. willoughby had been at peterly at mr. webbs house , and the horse he went on stood in drury-lane , being lame . and mrs jolly went once with mrs cellier to mr. nevill in the kings-bench , at mr. weavers-house , where mrs cellier dined , this informant attending them , mrs jolly in the mean time going about to distribute money to the prisoners . jurat . anno & die supradict . edm. warcup . william woodman . the information of william scarlet , taken before the right honourable sir robert cleyton kt. lord major , &c. jan. . . this informant saith , that in or about the month of april last past , this informant heard one margaret , then pretended servant to mrs cellier , say to mr. willoughby ; then prisoner in the counter , that her mistress had business of great consequence for him to do , if he could get his liberty by tuesday ; if not , she could not tell whether he should be fetcht out by her or not . at which time this informant saith , there was a report about trying the lords in the tower. and this informant further deposes , that in order to that , he this informant was employed by the aforesaid mrs cellier , to bring an habeas corpus ; together with which , this informant had the sum of fifty shillings , or thereabouts , delivered to him by the hands of mrs cellier , for the charges of the habeas corpus . and farther saith , that upon the day that the habeas corpus was allowed , he received the sum of thirty shillings more from mrs cellier , at which time the said mrs cellier did utter words to this or the like effect : that if mr. willoughby would stick to his business , she would make him a man for ever . and this informant further saith , that sometime after , mr. willoughby requested this informant to deliver a letter directed to one mrs eliz. sheldon , near st. james's , to this e●●●ct : madam , i desire you to send by this bearer , who is my trusty friend , the twenty guineys , being the queens charity for a week . and this informant farther saith , that mrs cellier told him when any business happened for the bailing of prisoners , she would imploy this informant , if he would accept of it . william scarlet . the examination of mary aires before the lords of the councel , november . . that she went with willoughby and duddel to nevil in the kings-bench , and left willoughby by , at a coffee-house by the way , and carried a sheet of notes taken at langhorns tryal , which willoughby writ . that she carried a letter from nevil to mrs cellier , and a letter from mrs cellier to the lady powis . she also saw lane at powis house , who went by the name of johnson ; and that mrs cellier ordered him to be called by that name . mary ayres . the information of bennet duddel joyner , taken before his majesty in councel , november . . that he had wrought at powis-house , and there seen mr. willoughby . that he went with mrs ayres to see a prisoner in the kings bench , but knew not his name was nevil : that mr. willoughby staid at a coffee-house thereby ; that when they returned , they brought home papers along with them from nevil . that soon after mrs ayres went to the tower. that he hath seen mr. willoughby and others often writing at powis-house . that one mr. lane lay there in the house . that mrs cellier was once in great fear , when she thought she had lost lane. that mr willoughby did once ask him if he could make a hand-press , in order to printing ; to which he made answer , that he would ask the lord p. and his lady if he might make such a thing . bennet duddel . the examination of anne blake , servant to mrs cellier , before sir william waller , october . . that mrs cellier delivered into her custody two parcels of papers , desiring her to lay them up safe for her , so as they might not be discovered . that she hid one parcel behind the pewter , in the kitchin , and the other parcel , among which was a little paper-book , tyed with red ribbons for better security , she hid in a tub of meal ; both which were seized by sir william waller . the mark of anne blake . saturday november , . at the councel-chamber . svsan edwards , servant to mrs cellier , made oath , that she carried two papers from her mistress to mr. dangerfield in newgate , with money and two books of account , that he might be perfect in them . and that she carried a message at another time from her mistress , that her life was in his hands ; and that if he did not stand fast , she was an undone woman . susan edwards . thomas williamson sworn before the right honourable sir robert clayton lord mayor , jan. . . declared upon oath , that upon the tenth of february , mrs cellier came to his house to implov him to bail papists out of prison ▪ for which she promised him fifteen shillings for each person , and an allowance for extraordinary expences , and for his incouragement gave him ten shillings in earnest . that after he had bailed out several , mrs cellier sent for him to her house in arundel street , and after several discourses , told him , that if he this informant could help her to two men of undaunted spirits ▪ that would swear to some directions that she had drawn up , to take off ●rances evidence , hoping thereby to save the convicting of berry , hill and green , mrs cellier promised the said persons should have forty pounds , or thereabout , for their reward ; and withal , he was desired to tell the said persons , that they should not need to fear a prison , for that by her interest she would so order it , that they should be only prisoners in the fleet , where they should have forty shilling a week duly paid : b●t this informant did not perform his promise to mrs cellier in that respect , though she gave him five shillings in earnest to undertake the business . that soon after mrs cellier employed him to get one mr. willoughby out of prison , saying , the said willoughby must be gotten out who ever remained , and for which the said mrs cellier paid him the sum of four pound , or thereabouts . that upon this informants telling mrs cellier that mr. willoughby was a brisk man ; she replied , that if he were not brisk , he would not be fit for our business . that upon discourse with the said mrs cellier , about the death of sir edmondbury godfrey , she said , it is laid on us now , but it will appear it was done by the presbyterians . tho. williamson . the examination of richard adams of lincolnes-inn esq upon oath , taken the th day of november , before his majesty and lords of the councel-board , at whitehal . this examinant saith , that about two or three years since , he became acquainted with mrs cellier , a french merchants wife , upon the account of being a lawyer , and a commissioner upon the statutes of bankrupt ; and about the th of september last past , he was prevailed with to give mrs cellier a meeting at the devil tavern near temple bar , to consult with other persons about the management of a discovery of a long concealed estate of one mr. dowdeswel a bankrupt , and a debtor unto mrs celliers husband five hundred pound , as she said ; and at her first entrance into the room , she was accompanied with one mr. dangerfield , alias willoughby , who suddenly began the duke of yorks health in a glass of wine ; and observing that this examinant had omitted naming the health , mrs cellier urged this examinant to gratifie the gentleman her good friend therein ; being complyed with by this examinant , then ( dangersield ) attempted to engage the examinant in a discourse , reviling persons of the presbyterian perswasion : his design not taking effect , mrs cellier passionately expressed great affections unto this examinant , declaring , that she was lately arrived in england , and desired to know of this examinant what was become of the old popish plot ; condoling the condition of our kings loss of reputation beyond seas , for sheding so much innocent blood , as perswaded thereunto by that wicked villain shaftesbury ; bidding this examinant have patience but one month longer , and he should see the plot blown up with a witness ; and that his royal higness was restless until the plotters were discovered ; saying thus , their names are well known unto us already , they are many in number , and great ones : and bidding this examinant not to stand in his own light , said she was in a capacity of raising his fortunes ; saying , she spoke affectionately unto him , and telling him , he was more capable of serving the kings and duke of yorks interest than other persons were , being a cast-off at court. to which sayings this examinant replyed , that he never had any concerns at court , unless she meant his being turned out of the commission of the peace , in good company , not with fools or knaves . and further saith , that mrs cellier was full of discourse , in extolling the great charity of lord powis's lady towards the distressed catholicks in prison , blaming this examinant for not improving his interest with his lady , who had expressed great kindness for this examinant . adding further , that this examinants prophetick sayings unto the lord powis , at his casual meeting of his lordship in lumbard-street , gave him great disturbance relating unto the death of sir edmondbury godfrey . and at this examinants and mrs celliers departure out of the devil tavern , earnestly desired this examinant , to see her at her house ; boasting , that the lady powis often did her the honour of calling upon her at her house . rich. adams . november . . the right honourable the earl of peterborough did declare at the councel-board , that mrs cellier informed his lordship how she had found out a man that was able to discover very dangerous practices against the king. that she gave a great character of one willoughby , who had much improved himself abroad in the services of the prince of orange , duke de villa hermosa , and other great princes ; and that this man by his often frequenting divers coffee-houses , had discovered divers great and dangerous things that were preparing against the parliament . that she did desire his lordship to procure a warrant for making search for some papers . and added , if such could be obtained , all the whole matter would be discovered ; but she desired the warrant might be obtained without the kings knowledge . the information of william kilbury , &c. this informant saith , that mr. dangerfield came to lodge at his house on whitsunday last past , and that a gentlewoman came in one mr. prince's name to take the lodgings for him , and that he lodged there about three weeks , and the gentlewoman who took the lodging said , she would assure this informant the gentleman was no priest , but said he might be a papist , but a very modest gentleman ; and about a fortnight after mr. dangerfield came thither , he went into the countrey one day , and returned the next ; and this informant believes , he said he went to peterley in buckinghamshire . and whilst he lodged there , some persons came to him , which ●r . dangerfield said were the lady powis her servants . and whilst he lodged in this informants house , he was desired by mr. dangerfield to find out some fit persons to get him some of the flesh of mr. langhorn , or the five jesuits executed about that time ; and two gentlemen with mr. dangerfield did go , as they said , to the place of execution for that purpose . and when this informant told mr. dangerfield , that by reason of the strict orders , he could not entertain him longer in his house , he being a papist , mr. dangerfield went away forthwith , and said he was to lodge at powis-house , whither if this informant came he would make him welcome , and farther saith not . william kilbury . the information of lucy prince , &c. this informant saith , that she hath been acquainted with mrs cellier about eight months since ; and one time she brought mr. dangerfield along with her to this informants house ; but this informant heard none of their discourse . and she saith , that she went to powis-house to mrs cellier while she lodged there , where she saw mr. dangerfield four or five times writing . and this informant saith , she doth know one mr. sharp , and hath heard and seen him say mass , at the chappel in wild-house , within this half year last past ; and he is a little man black haired . and the informant hath heard mrs cellier say , she gave him money to say mass , or pray for the soul of a person deceased . and she saith , that she saw mr. dangerfield and mrs cellier one time more writing in the gallery in powis-house , and others by them . and she hath heard mr. dangerfield often lament the death of the five jesuits , and mr. langhorn ; saying , they dyed wrongfully . and she hath heard mrs cellier say , they were innocent of the plot , and further saith not . lucy prince . the testimony of anne nethercoat , servant to captain richardson . mistress cellier being lodged with me at a certain time whilst under her close confinement , desired me to buy her a quantity of brown thread , which i did ; then she having about her a pen and ink , wrote divers notes , and prevailed with me to carry them as she should direct ; but for my better security , in case any thing should miscarry , and i put upon my oath to swear if i had at any time carried any letters , she had so wound the threads over the notes , that they appeared only like bottoms , and the answers were to be sent in the same manner ; but before i engaged my self in this affair with her , i acquainted my master with the design , who advised me to proceed , which i did , and as often as she delivered those bottoms to me , i gave them to my master , who forthwith carried them to the councel at whitehal ; the contents of them i know not more , than that she did in one of them request her daughter to send margaret jenkinson into the countrey , and take care she wanted for nothing , ( and here note that margaret was a witness against her . ) and that curtis should be allowed his ten shillings a week , and used with great tenderness , lest he should turn rogue as the other had done ; meaning mr. dangefield ; ( and here note , that curtis is the same man concerned in the duke of buckinghams business . ) and that she should be particularly kind to susan edwards , though she were both whore and thief , yet she might be a great instrument towards the saving her life , when she came upon the tryal . some time after this , mrs cellier not thinking the way of the brown-thread safe , in regard i had seemingly pretended i could not be so often at leisure to go with the bottoms as she would have had me ) ordered it so , that the notes should be made up in little boxes like pill-boxes , that so they might pass under the notion of physick ; and were to be left at one howards house a stone-cutter , on the fleet-ditch-side , near black friars , for mrs celliers son in-law , whose name was blaredale , and an apothecary in arundel-street ; but these i also discovered . now for my incouragement in this affair , mrs cellier promised to make my fortune , either by marriage , by the dutchess of york , or some other way , which i should think most fit , provided i would be true to her . then she further added for my incouragement , that the duke of york , whom she called master , ( and then was in scotland ) would not be long before he returned , and that then it would not be long ere she should have her liberty ; saying , she was so much in his favour , and so intimate , that she both had , and could be very frequently admitted the dukes closet , by a certain scratch of the door , which , she said , she always used , and he well understood , &c. anne neathercoat . the testimony of w. boyce , &c. about the middle of last summer , . mr. dangerfield came to treat with me , in relation to mr. prance , and desired to drink with me privately ; and thus he attacked me three or four times , still endeavouring to press upon me discourse relating to mr. prance , wherein he seemed to express many discourses that prance had raised of me to my prejudice , and to this purpose . w. boyce . the testimony of jane stubbs , &c. who saith , that about the month of june , . mr. dangerfield came to her husband , who lay then very sick , and desired her husband to tell him , if he had not been much tortured when he was in prison , about the firing fetter-lane ? to which her hu●band answered , he was hardly used at first , but better afterwards . then mr. dangerfield inquired into the condition of her husband , and gave him five shillings , and promised to get money to pay the rent of the house , which was five pound , and to come again , but did not . and asked her husband if he knew mrs cellier . jane stubbs . the information of alice leeson , wife of w. leeson of clerkenwel , in the county of middlesex , cook , the th day of june , . before sir john frederick kt. alderman , and one of his majesties justices of the peace of the city of london , as followeth . this informant saith , that having some occasion to go to the press-yard london , some time last term , she met with mrs cellier , where this informant did ask her how her tryal went on ? whereupon she replyed , i went to meet the lyons , but they did not appear , but this perjured villain dangerfield . but i am prepared for the lyons , let them go on when they will ; and truly , said she , i now study the law and the statutes , to bring perjured villains to their ends ; and i go up to mr. redding to assist me , and i assist him . and this informant telling the said mrs cellier , she wondred how this plot was so quasht , which was carried on by mr. oates and bedlow ! she told her , that they the said oates and bedlow were perjured villains ; and that there were more come into their religion since the said plot , than for many years before . and that she this informant should live to see their religion the most flourishing religion in the nation , viz. meaning the popish religion , as this informant believeth . alice leeson . having all this united force of evidence , testimony , and circumstances on my side , i came into court , ( without the least suspition of meeting with such exceptions against me ) to do my duty as a witness for his majesty , in the prosecution of an information , to the truth of which , in substance , and by allowance , i had sworn before his most excellent majesty himself , and his most honourable privy-councel ; and upon which mrs cellier had stood so long committed , by the approbation and act of the same authority . but to my amazing astonishment , and the no small surprize of others , the prisoner , who had before called me her good friend , and given such a character of my modesty , to my new-landlord and others , and judged me a good and undeniable evidence on their parts , objected against my testimony ; alleadging , that if she could make it out , that i had been whipt , transported , pillored , or perjured , i could not be allowed a witness against her ; which produced the following dispute . c. j. if you can produce any record whereby he is convict of any thing that can by law take away his testimony , do it . cellier . he hath been indicted for burglary . c. j. dangerfield , were you ever indicted for burglary ? dang . i will take it at their proof . c. j let every man have his right in gods name . cellier . my lord , i can prove him perjured . c. j. have you any record to prove him perjured ? is he convicted ? cellier no. c. j then you cannot do it . cellier . i can prove him guilty of forgery . c. j. if you do not produce the record , you do nothing . cellier . i have the copies of several records in court , which will be sworn to . which being produced , i then pleaded his majesties most gratious pardon . to that mrs cellier replyed , she had a copy of it , and that it did not extend to some of the crimes of which i then stood convicted . and to prove her allegation , she produced a copy of a record of an outlawry for felony , which occasioned the court to order my pardon to be read . but not having it about me , i prayed half an hours time to fetch it , which was granted ; and during my absence , some other witnesses were examined . first , thomas williamson sworn for the king , and thus interrogated . c. j. did you ever see dangerfield and mrs cellier in company ? wit. no , my lord , but i have been employed by mrs cellier to get persons out of prison , and among the rest mr. dangerfield . c. j. why was she so kind to dangerfield ? wit. i do not know that , my lord , but she bid me get him out who ever remained . j. raymund . why was she so earnest to get him out ? did she tell you what she would have with him ? wit. no , my lord. record . we only bring him for a witness that she was familiar with dangerfield . next to him , margaret jenkinson , who formerly had been a servant to mrs cellier , was sworn and thus examined . c. j. what discourse have you ever heard between dangerfield and mrs cellier ? wit. i never saw them together but twice , and it is a year since i left her service . c. j. when you saw them at dinner or supper , what other company was there ? wit. her husband was with her one time . c. j. what did they talk about ? wit. they talked about the prisoners which were condemned , which were the five jesuits . c. j. where was it ? at her house ? wit. no , at powis-house . c. j. how came you there ? wit. i carried notes backward and forward between them . after susan edwards , another servant to mrs cellier , was sworn for the king , and interrogated to this effect . rec. what intimacy have you known between dangerfield and mrs cellier ? c. j. did you ever see them together ? wit. yes , very often . and she said the popish plot would turn to a presbyterian plot . c. j. who did she say that to ? to dangerfield ? wit. no , my lord , but i have heard him say that he would make it his business it should be so . c. j. what did you say to him , when he said he must turn to rogue , and discover all their plots . wit. i said he would be no greater rogue than he was before . c. j. you were pretty nimble with him . wit. he thought he should be hanged . c. j. to mrs cellier . have you any record to shew that dangerfield was put in the pillory ? cellier . yes , my lord. upon that the copy of the record was read , for uttering counterfeit guinneys ; and the copy of an outlawrie upon record for felony . c. j. come gentlemen , what say you to this outlawry ? rec. it is not the same person . c. j. we ought to be very careful in these concerns , else we may do a work this day may make all the kingdom rue it . it is a sad thing , that people of a vitious profligate life , both hefore they come to newgate , and all along in their life-time , should be suffered as witnesses to take away the life of a worm . i question whether he will come again or no , he hath been gone a great while ; such are fit to be employed to find out , but hard to be believed when they have found out . c. j. captain richardson , is this the man that broke chelmsford goale ? c. rich. my lord , i can say nothing to that . c. j. was he burnt in the hand for felony ? c. rich. my lord , i believe he was . c. j. he made me believe as though he would fly . i believe he is : we will not hood wink our selves against such a fellow as this , that is guilty of such notorious crimes ; a man of modesty , after he hath been in the pillory , would not look a man in the face . it appears , that after he was burnt in the hand , he hath been outlawed for felony , and so it doth appear by the record . after i had been absent about half an hour , i returned with my pardon , which being read , instead of vtlagaria qualiacunque pro feloniis quibuscunque , the sence was more contractively expressed by the words , omnia malesicia & vtlagaria qualiacunque ; which omission seemed to render the pardon defective ; it being his lordships opinion , that the word vtlagaria did onely extend to outlawries between party and party , so that my evidence was wholly laid aside . c. j. such fellows as you are , sirrah , shall know we are not afraid of you . he produceth us here a pardon by the name of thomas of waltham , and saies his father and kinsman are both of that name and place . will you have him sworn whether his father or cozen thomas was ever convict of felony ? it is notorious enough , what a fellow this is ; he was in chelmsford goale . i will shake all such fellows before i have done with them . have you any more to say , mrs cellier ? are there any waltham-men here ? dangerfield . my lord , this is enough to discourage a man from ever entring into an honest principle . c. j. what! do you with all the mischiefs that hell has in you , think to brave it in a court of justice ? while his lordship was giving his directions to the jury , i was going away , as not thinking there was any more occasion for my stay , or that his lordship had any farther business with me . presently i heard a voice , c. j. where is dangerfield ? is he gone ? call him . so soon as ever i returned into court , c. j. have you any friends will be bound for you in a good sum of money ? dangerfield . no , my lord , not in court. c. j. then let him be committed . immediately i was taken into custody , and carried away to the kings-bench-prison , where i remained from friday the day after the tryal , till the wednesday-morning following ; at what time i was by a habeas corpus of my own procuring , brought to the bar , in order to my giving bail. but altogether unknown to me , there was a copy of a pardon produced , which i had pleaded at the old-bailey , for the remitting a fine upon me , wherein i was pardoned for felonies , robberies , and all misdemeanours , &c. which raised another argument . c. j. where was this pardon allowed ? and for what ? was it allowed for felony , as well as the fine , or for the fine onely ? j. dolbin . i allowed the pardon , and as i remember , 't was onely for the fine . the clerk of the crown remembers perhaps . c. j. mr. tanner , what say you ? m. tanner . my lord , i think it was for the fine only ; but the felony is included , and therefore pardoned i suppose . c. j. no , i suppose not : for if it were not allowed for the felony , as well as for the fine , i do not know but that the indictment ought to be removed , and the pardon allowed next essex-assizes . however , upon his lordships farther consideration , i was discharged . being now come to what more particularly concerns my self , i shall endeavour to keep within the bounds of respect and reverence to the office and dignity of the person to whom i am constrained to offer these reflections , out of a deep sence of an injured proselyte to reformation , as may render me such in the esteem of the world . and that my defence may rather appear to be a forced complaint , than a contumelious expostulation with a superiour in so high a degree , as being the only person that suffered under his severity . not forgetting to render my most humble thanks to some of those honourable judges his brethren , whose mildness was a lenitive that very much asswaged the rigorous entertainment of my loyal attendance . i shall take the words in the same order as they were spoken . dangerfield , was you ever indicted for burglary ? what the world may think of the question , i cannot tell , but to my apprehension it seemed very odd that such a person should put himself to the trouble of demanding a question , to which he could not choose but well know , or rather was very certain , that the party interrogated was no way bound to return an answer . if then the answer were not within the verge of constraint , consequently it was impertinent ; and if so , obnoxious : for considering the circumstances under which the testimony was well known to have lain , and how easily such petty obstacles might have been prevented , by the usual fore-sight of those that fail not to inspect the conversation of the most material witnesses in tryals of such concernment ; it was very strange , that a person summoned after so long deliberation , as a witness for the king , and ready to deliver his evidence against the prisoner at the bar , for no less than high-treason , should have his mouth stopt with a question , which the prisoner her self had not power to ask , but onely to prove the matter of fact . had his lordship demanded of mrs cellier , whether she had ever been indicted before of high-treason , he would have looked upon it as a great piece of despair or impudence , had she answered , yes , my lord , i have . yet he that would have smiled at self-accusation in a prisoner , could think it reason to sift the kings evidence to his own ruine . and i must arraign my self for i know not what burglary , to gratifie his lordship , and the prisoner , at the same time arraigned by the court for high treason . let every man have his right , in god's name . with submission , i am apt to believe , that here was either a mistake of the sex , or else a supposition at the delivery of the words , that man in english , like homo in latine , is of the epicene gender . else i cannot conceive what coherence there could be , between this distributive expression , and my answer to his lordships question , i will take it at their proof , unless he thought i deserved to be hanged for my obedience to the kings writ , to which i was ( as i thought ) amply enabled by his most gratious favour . no impartial man could think i came there to do mrs cellier wrong , or that such a thing was in my power ; for his lordship could not but know , she had acknowledged her life was in my hands . so that all the wrong she could expect from me , was to be false to the king and kingdom ; and all the right i could have done her , was either to have devoted my self for her dear sake , with an obstinate silence to the halter , or to have stifled my evidence with some generous piece of self homicide . upon the testimony of susan edwards , his lordship was pleased to spring this question to the maid . what did you say to dangerfield , when he said he must turn rogue , and discover all their plots ? i am unwilling to let fly the least extravagant thought . but certainly it was a particular way of proceeding , to give the kings evidence an opportunity to abuse and render the kings testimony ridiculous , and by a question so remote and forraign , that at first it onely created a wonder why it should be asked ; to make one of the best collateral witnesses the king had , the sport of his own court ; and all this ( for the wonder soon ceased ) to entertain the auditory with a sarcasme of a chamber-maid : i said he would be no greater rogue than he was before . how strong this smelt of premeditation , i leave to the world to judge . for his lordship could not choose but know what the answer would be , who had the question so ready , when there was not the least cause or necessity for it ▪ for susan edwards was summoned to prove the bringing the twenty shillings in silver , and the guiney to me from mrs cellier at newgate , ( upon my first apprehension ) with instructions what to say , should i be asked about the occasion of our correspondence . she was to have proved the message that she brought from mrs cellier to me soon after , that her life was in my hands , and that if i did not stand fast , she was an undone woman . which had it been fully sworn , i question whether mrs cellier , though i had been what they would have made me , must not have been discharged the jury , and reserved to a farther discovery . but to all this his lordship had not one interrogatory to purpose , onely amuseth the unwary damsel , ( who if she pass henceforward for a wit about the town , owes her advantage solely to his lordship ) and leads her into a question to destroy what he ought to have supported . as if the maid had been summoned thither not to give her evidence , but onely to shew her parts . which when his lordship had done , he could not forbear to congratulate the maids wit with a sardonick smile , give her the great applause , you were pretty nimble with him . whence i may with seneca presume to observe , that there is a difference between passion and sedateness ; and that apparent heats and transportments , are not always the ornament of a tribunal . quid ergo ? non irascor latroni ? non irascor venefico ? non ▪ sed procedam in tribunal non infestus sed vultu legis ; nec quicquam magnum est , nisi quod simul & placidum , l. . de ira , c. . but now directing his speech to mrs cellier , with a more friendly sweetness he enquires of her , have you any record to shew that dangerfield was put in the pillory ? as if it had been the work of that morning to arraign mrs cellier for treason , and try me by her evidence . you may be sure mrs cellier was loath to come to the test ; and i think his lordship was as unwilling she should : what records she had , he had allowed her fairly enough before to produce , without the help of such incouraging questions . though the court be of councel for the prisoner , there was no such need of prompting a woman , whose readiness in such affairs , had been so well experienced in the same place . however , it being now impossible for her to deny a favour so earnestly demanded , she produced a brace of records ; the one was a copy of an outlawrie for felony , upon which his lordship called to the kings councel , come gentlemen , what say you to this outlawry for felony ? here his lordship seemed to caress the advantage he had over me ; he calls to the kings councel , as one that saw he had put them to a puzzle , and consequently certain of the victory . i would not willingly incur the displeasure of any man , especially of his lordship ; but my justification urges me to say this , that though there are many reasons why a man may ask a preparatory question , which he is able to resolve at the same instant ; yet here it carried the resemblance onely of a preparatory formality , which the subsequent proceedings required . the knowledge of my offences , were the motives that induced mrs cellier to associate me with her self , in the deep contrivances of so wicked a conspiracy . his majesty himself , who never gave me those reproaches under the foul guilt of treason , as his lordship did when pardoned by his soveraign , well knew my crimes ; but beholding my penitence , gave a forfeited life to him , who had been the bane of a conspiracy against his sacred person . else mrs cellier had hard measure to be so long detained upon the acccusations of one who walked about the town with a defective pardon . and it may be looked upon as a recompence for her sufferings , that she was so easily delivered . otherwise , it was a severe case , that mrs cellier , laden with so many crimes , fouler than all mine put together , unless what she her self had involved me in , should be brought to the bar to encounter me her grand associate , her confederate , her intimate in the conduct of all her mysterions treacheries , with an inconconsiderable outlawry , ( i speak comparatively ) and all for want of a quibuscunque , and this too in order to her acquittal . we ought to be very careful in these concerns . i dare not presume to instruct his lordship , nor do i ; nor do thousands more question , but that his lordship exactly understands how far his care ought to extend . but whether needless and overweening nicety be care , i leave the casuists to dispute . care may be hurtful , where there is more care taken of the greater criminal , than of the less . care may be too injurious , if i may not say presumptive , when it over-curiously scans and descants upon a thing of so solemn a nature , as the pardon of a soveraign prince , whose onely let him be pardoned , is like the command of let there be day . and i dare be bold to say , that his majesty never intended i should suffer that prejudice and disgrace by his pardon , as his lordship hath put me to . else we may do a work this day , may make the kingdom rue it . i see his lordship continueth his care ; but there are many that fear , his care was too neglectful , to let so great a criminal as mrs cellier was , ( for while i have breath i must still maintain it ) break all the fences of the law ▪ for the meer defect of clerkship . and many good people there are , whose prayers , hopes , and wishes , are all to the same effect ; that the kingdom may not rue the cavils of that morning , under the pretence of care and tenderness of conscience . and the question may be fairly put , whether the great arch-angel of the three kingdoms , and the tutelar angels of the nation , his chosen assistants , shewed more care in committing so great an offendor as mrs cellier , and supporting my information ; or his lordship , in vilifying both my testimony and person to set her free . the world must needs believe that his lordship had a very high opinion of his prudence and justice , to advance them above the wisdom and equitable deliberation both of the king and his councel . but he had condemned several ( at what time there was no disputing about pardons , though far more furiously attacked ) and therefore as many must be saved , or else astraea's ballance would fall from the zodiack . it is a sad thing that people of a vitious profligate life , both before they come to newgate , and all along in their life-time , should be suffered as a witness to take away the life of a worm . his lordship next will deny the king his prerogative ; for that very person whom the king had set right in court , he calls one of a vitious and profligate life ; so far his lordship differs from the sence of the blessed : heaven rejoyceth at the conversion of a sinner , his lordship storms at mine . and because i had deservedly suffered before in bad causes , he was resolved to be even with me , and make me suffer for once undeservedly in a good one . i submit to his lordship , that it would be an hard case for such persons as he mentions , to take away the life of a worm . but his lordship mistakes mrs celliers character , for she was no worm , unless he means such a worm , as would have corroded and cankered the very root of the nations happiness . and then it was a sad thing , that a person of a profligate life pardoned , should not be admitted to give his testimony against a woman of a profligate life unpardoned . here was onely the difference in the proverb ; the worm was trod on , and his lordship turned again . might i be so bold , i would ask his lordship , who discovered the conspiracy of cataline , but curius ? flagitiis atque facinoribus coopertus & fulvia ? salust . who revealed the treasons of marshal biron , but his confident laftin ? accablé de crimes & de mauvaises affaires ? mezeray . for if a man be not of the cabinet-councel of the wicked , he shall never be able to know their intrigues ; and if he know them not , far less able to discover them . mrs cellier acknowledged , that had i not been brisk , i had never been fit for their turn . he that is not through-paced in bad principles , is not to be trusted in the murther of a prince ; men of vertue certainly were not to be invited to the attempts . but people of vitious principles , stick as close to them , as honest and good men to the precepts of vertue , which creates the difference and safety between communicating a piece of villany to a miscreant , and an honest man. from whence i collect , that no man can be a good witness in mischief against his confederates , unless he be involved in the same crime . and therefore the reason is plain to all men , why some are pardoned for burglary , some for robbing on the high-way ; to the end they be good witnesses to discover the mis-deeds of their accomplices . for to use his own words at the lord castlemains tryal : a man once pardoned , is restored to his former credit ; and so the king intends by all his pardons . now if that be true , ( as i would take all advantages to subscribe to his lordships opinion ) certainly his lordship was under a mistake , so needlesly to quarrel with his majesties broad-seal , or at least , to make so slight of his intentions . doubtless it was an high reflection upon the kings honour , to repeat and raise from the tomb of silence , to the ruine of a pardoned subject , the ghosts of buried crimes . and yet soon after he had affronted his majesties most gracious act and deed , to declare that the very intentions of the king are valid in his pardons . but the grandeur of the antient oracles consisted in their ambiguity . i question whether he will come again or no , he has been gone a great while . his lordship pursues his text very smartly , and in another man perhaps , he would have looked upon it as a kind of malitia praecogitata , to prosecute a person , that to his knowledge never did his lordship wrong , with so much vehemency ; for my part , my little reason tells me , that though it be the duty of far my betters , to reverence and to be careful of giving offence to a personage so highly entrusted as his lordship , yet that it is beneath the majesty of magistrates so eminently exalted , to trample upon the meanest of their inferiours . neither do i think , with all submission be it spoken , that his lordship kept within the bounds of true decorum , to sit in that place prepossessing the people with an ill opinion of the kings evidence . i am sorry i disobliged his lordships patience ; yet i dare be bold to say , ( though it be no easie task to hurry through the streets of london ) that i did not exceed the time allowed me of half an hour , to go from the court of kings-bench , beyond the royal exchange . however , at length i did return , as far as i can guess , contrary to his lordships both expectation and desire , by that expression which follows , when he said , i question whether he will come or not . a surmise , of which i cannot fathom the reason , for i neither had the least apprehension of the danger concealed , or fear of my disability to make good my charge , in regard his lordship had not revealed his future intentions to me . had his lordship had any suspition of me , it may be wondred he did not send his tipstaff along with me then , as afterwards he did , and which he might as justly have done . but here lucian in one of his dialogues , lends me his assistance , where he says : that he who inveighs against the absent , doth but claim the attention of the auditory to himself , by prepossessing their ears , and stopping them up after he hath filled them full of the worst he hath to say , by which he renders them impenetrable to any defence against the ill character he hath given . which he calls a very great injury , not onely in his own , but in the judgment of solon and draco , two wise and famous legislators . such are fit to be employed to find out , but hard to be believed when they have found out . this is a laconism wherein his lordship had undertaken much in few words , and therefore the harder to be interpreted . but i humbly suppose his meaning to be this ; that they who are and have been the discoverers of the plot , and fit to be believed , so far as to say there was a plot , are not when they swear in the prosecution of their discovery , in regard that such a prosecution is the act of men of profligate lives . if this be the meaning of this pithy sentence , as i believe salmatius himself could find no other , his lordship hath laid a fair foundation for the subverting , overturning , and invalidating all that hath been said or acted by all the testimonies and evidence for his majesty , in all the several late tryals , wherein his lordship himself presided : which if it should come to pass , i leave it , with submission to his lordship , to consider the fatality o● the consequences . my lord , it can be no good logick to grant the papists such a conclusion ; they are nimble enough to lay hold upon the sayings of great and learned men , especially when uttered as apothegms ; and they needed no such encouragement to prove their arguments . but heaven avert , that either your lordship , or any such stars of the first magnitude in the sphere of loyalty , should ever live to see such a mutation of affairs ! captain richardson , is this the man that broke chelmsfordgoale ? lord ! what a strange question was this , for all men that own impartiality to shake their heads at ? captain richardson must be favoured by the name of captain richardson , and the keeper of newgate must be tempted to answer for the keeper of chelmsford goale . as much as to say , is there no man here that can help a man out to vilifie this rogue ? but it seems captain richardson could neither answer his lordships question , nor his expectations . but to shew how ready i am to obey his lordships commands , i will freely give his lordship to understand , that i never did break the goale of chelmsford ; though if i had , i know not what kindness it would have done his lordship , but onely to render me more odious to the auditory . captain richardson , was he burnt in the hand for felony ? here was another strange riddle proposed , but not so difficult to unfold as that of sphynx ; for wherefore should that question be asked , when there was a true copy of a record produced for it ? but this was still to improve the ill-will and bad opinion of the people against me . my lord could never have been the conquering champion , had he not first made me the monstrous dragon . but i owed that respect to his lordship , that had he put that question to my self , i would have owned it . for indeed , i am apt to believe , that as the case then stood with me , any other person , though the best gentlemans son in the country , might have been lyable to the same scandal , or rather disgrace ; for then i was but a young stripling , under the tuition of my father , and no way privy to the fact laid in the indictment , till it was actually committed by another person ; who being , as i was under my father , clerk to another atturney , came to me one evening with a cabinet , which , as he said , he had taken from his mother , who was a woman very rigid , and careless of his maintenance : withal he told me , i should have a part , if i would conceal his crime , and help him off with the goods , which the ignorance of my youth was by such a dazling prospect easily tempted to undertake , as i did ; and for which the other boy gave me as many of the things , as he said amounted to one third part more . now to shew what a cunning gamester i was at this sport , i was no sooner possessed of my gay toyes , but i openly wore the rings which came to my share , and shewed my silver medals to the countrey-people , displaying my prizes with all the folly and pride imaginable of an unexperienced boy , and one that understood nothing of his danger . at length , the description of all the things being published in the gazet , the people of the town well knowing i had shewed them several of the goods mentioned in the advertisement , carried me before a justice of the peace , to whom , upon my examination , i owned where i had them , and how i came by them ; thereupon the justice committed me , and being brought to tryal , i was convicted for confederacy . which is the whole and plain truth of the story , of which his lordship would have made such an advantage against me he made me believe he would flie ; i believe he is : we will not hood-wink our selves against such a fellow as this , that is guilty of such notorious crimes . a man of modesty would not look a man in the face , after he hath been in the pillory . i do find now , that his lordship is coming to his application ; but if the spirit of wisdom be mild and soft , as the sacred oracle of scripture affirms it to be , i cannot imagine why his lordship should fall into such raptures and rhapsodies upon bare surmises . it 's believed i was fled , and and therefore we will not hood-wink our selves , &c. here his lordships supposition was without ground , because i did return again . neither do i remember , that i told his lordship i would flie , because it was a thing i never pretended to . now the logick of reason informs me , that where the supposition vanisheth , the inferences can never be true . but grant i had been pillored , most certainly the pardon reached that offence ; and tho it was thought to be defective in reference to the outlawry . i humbly conceive it was not so fair for his lordship at that time to tax me for want of modesty . i have been informed , that one of his lordships predecessours was once a robber upon the high-way , but having obtained his pardon fell to his studies , rose by the law that he had so often broken , and became a great and famous judge . so that reformation ought to be encouraged , not upbraided . for my part , though necessity prompted me to so many vile mis-deeds , yet within my self at the same time i abhorred the fact i was committing ; and therefore i humbly beg his lordships pardon , for differing from his lordships judgment of modesty . for he that hath once obtained the pardon of a prince , ought to be so far from secluding himself from the converse of mankind , or daring to look people in the face , that he would wrong the high favour done him , should he not make it his business to shew himself the publick object of royal mercy , and defie all those that tax him with his forgiven crimes . but these taunts and reproaches , ( though ten thousand times more frequently thrown in my dish ) shall never make me decline the just cause i am ingaged in , for the service of my king and country . in order whereunto , though i were the man that yesterday durst do an ill act , i am not to day afraid , after a full repentance of my crime , to look him in the face , who shall be so unkind as to tax me with immodesty for so doing . if his lordship knew of the defect in my pardon before i returned , he might have dispatched his business sooner , and not have put himself in such a heat for his attendance upon me : if not , i humbly conceive it was unseasonable to be so violent before the pardon came , and the defect were proved . here the pardon was scan'd , and adjudged defective as to the outlawry . such fellows as you are , sirrah shall know we are not afraid of you . i do not know that ever at any time i called his lordships courage in question ; and i appeal to all that were present in court , whether i failed in any point of respect and reverence to the dignity of the persons there sitting ; so that i cannot apprehend the reason why his lordship should believe that i thought my self such a terrour to him . however , his lordship hath owned himself under the notion of those that may have reason to fear such fellows as i am , though for the present he declares the contrary . such fellows , is a comprehensive expression ; but i hope there are no more such fellows as his lordship endeavours to make me , in the discovery of the plot ; if there are , his lordship hath not thought it convenient as yet to tell them his mind . but now i remember , i was no such fellow once ; i was allowed as a good witness at the tryal of knox and lane , and at the tryal of munson the priest . so change the times , and we are changed in them . and thus we see his lordship is not afraid of me ; who they are he doth fear , that 's onely for time to discover . he produces here a pardon by the name of thomas of waltham , and says , his father and kinsman were both of that name and place ; will you have him sworn , whether his father and kinsman were ever convicted of felony ? here is a proposal made to the kings councel , the strangest that could be imagined ; his lordship could not but well know who was the thomas of waltham concerned in the pardon , and the chief occasion wherefore it was granted ; which was , to make me a legal and warrantable testimony agaist a foul traitress , that had conspired the death of his most sacred majesty : and yet for that very reason he rejected the kings favour , to render it ineffectual both to his majesties expectation and my advantage . however , at the same time he could have been content , that the person whom he had resused for a testimony in the kings behalf , as one that had been pillored , burnt in the hand , and outlawed for felony , and unpardoned , as he concluded , for the last , should be allowed to impeach his father , his kinsman , and himself , upon his own oath ; nay , had i but said it , i question it not but it would have been enough . otherwise , if it were onely put by way of irony to the councel , it onely served to make an insignificant noise among the ignorant , and i fear me comes within the verge of a baffle upon royal prosecution . i do confess , that in all my observations of the late proceedings , i never saw the kings evidence so well hectored before . he has been in chelmsford goale ; i will shake all such fellows before i have done with them . here 's a show of words and threats as great as hail stones ; let all men take an extraordinary care how they get into chelmsford goale . he has been in chelmsford goale , and therefore i will shake all such fellows . here 's a new most horrid and monstrous crime , never heard of before , to have been in chelmsford goale ; 't is no matter for what he was in chelmsford goale . but i have already given the world an account , how i came into that dismal and execrable place , and for what , and shall therefore say no more of it . but to this terrible business of shaking ; i hope 't is easie to be demonstrated , that i stand upon a sounder bottom than to be so easily shaken . with submission , i believe it to be the same bottom on which the interest and safety of my most gratious soveraign and countrey , the protestant religion , and national government at present stand ; and then let his lordship endeavour to shake all together if he can , i am certain to be shaken in good company . truly i cannot choose but check my thoughts for thinking what throwes his lordship endured to deliver a midwife . mrs cellier , have you any more to say ? are there any more walthammen here ? to which i answered and told his lordship , that there was enough already said , to discourage a man from ever entertaining an honest principle . to which his lordship , what do you think with all the mischiefs hell has in you , to brave it in a court of justice ? thus was my mouth quite stopped , there was no speaking after this . however , i will leave this to all the world , whether the modest complaint which i made of the usage i had received for coming to do his majesty service , were a braving of the court or no. have you any friends will be bound with you a in good sum of money ? i was in good hopes his lordships hast had been over , and that he had been now going about to turn a kind banker , believing i might want money in the place whither he was sending me . for considering the safety wherein i thought my self , by vertue of my pardon ; and not believing his lordship would have made such publick reflections on the kings grace and favour therefore granted , to justifie me against all objections that would be made against me by the kings prisoners : i could not imagine any other reason why his lordship should examine me for security ; but it seems it was to another end : for not having any subsidie-friends in court , he gave the word of command , then let him be committed . and so i was committed to all intents and purposes ; for immediately i was taken into custody , & hurried away to the kings-bench prison , where being looked upon by those inferiour beasts of men , as one that lay under those severe aggravations , of which the scorn and contempt of superiour command had so tempestuously thrown upon me , and i was presently lockt up with knox and lane , and several others whom they had assimulated to themselves in lawless conditions ; who maliciously remembring that i had been a witness against them at their tryals , upon which they lay their conviction , not onely rudely assaulted , but farther menaced me with nothing less than murder . so that finding my self an unequal match , either for power or number , i acquainted the door-keeper with my condition , and told him withal , that it was his masters business as much to secure my life as my person , and therefore desired to be removed to some place of more security ; which soon after was done by one middleton , an officer belonging to that place . who after he had demanded and received from me several fees , which , as i was afterwards assured , were as unjustly extorted , as by me readily paid , according to the usual custom of those purse-leeches , put me into a kind of dungeon on the common-side , where i continued from friday till munday night , after a sort of hard usage ; which i am apt to believe , i should not have been constrained to have undergone , had there not been a private and particular order for it from some higher authority than the marshal , as he himself told me afterwards . however , upon wednesday morning after , i was brought by an habeas corpus of my own procuring to the bar , in order to my intention of giving in bail. but it seems , altogether unknown to me , there was a copy of a pardon which i had pleaded formerly at the old-bailey , for the remitting a fine imposed upon me , wherein i was also pardoned for felonies , robberies , and all other misdemeanours . by which pardon , being general , it appeared that i was also pardoned for the very crime for which his lordship had committed me to the kings-bench ; so unexpected a check did my good fortune put upon heat and temerity . i confess it was my happiness , that i did not call to mind that pardon at mrs celliers tryal , ( if i may not rather call it mine own ) for then i presume i might have prevented my falling under ( that misfortune i had ) the hands of a transported severity . but i must ingenuously acknowledge the reasons why i did not , and why indeed it was almost impossible i should ; for first , my mind and thoughts were wholly charged with the weight of the testimony which i thought i had been to give in against the prisoner . in the next place , i could not imagine , since the king had been pleased to give me a special pardon , that i could have had any occasion for a general one , which i then did not know included more than my fine . and then it was one of the greatest surprizes in the world to me , and to find his lordship so imbittered against me ; a thing which i so little expected , being no way conscious to my self that i had ever acted against his lordship any thing that might occasion so much fury , unless it were that i once endeavoured to have mrs cellier examined before the lords of the councel , to give an accompt of what she had once informed me in the time of our intimacy , touching a treaty between his lordship and the lady powis , in favour of sir george wakeman . this i am apt to think , went a great way , and was the main inducement to render my testimony contemptible and invalid ; and that which produced so many cautions to the juries how they gave credit to my oaths . and all men know , that self-interest is that which may expose the most sage oft-times to acts of unwariness , in publick cases of great weight . where was this pardon allowed , and for what ? was it allowed for felony , or the fine onely ? i will not here undertake to be my own interpreter , but leave it to the impartial to censure the continuation of his lordships nicety and curiosity . for he would infer , that if it were allowed for the fine onely , it was still to be allowed for the felony ; though mr. tanner the deputy town-clerk of london had delivered his opinion in answer to his lordships question , that he thought all was pardoned that was expressed in the pardon . his lordship supposed it was not , and therefore declared , that if the pardon were not allowed for the felony , as well as the fine , he did not know but that the indictment ought to be removed , and the pardon allowed next essex-assizes . but with all submission to his lordship , i shall humbly crave leave to ask this question ; what may be thought to be the intentions of a prince when he pardon 's a man ? doth he intend to pardon the one half , and leave him to answer the law for the other ; or is it intended in ample manner ? more especially , when it was sufficiently known the pardon itself could not satisfie the end for which the pardon was granted , without it were absolutely full for all crimes past . the first is to make a man believe he is pardoned , when he is not ; and the prince himself looseth as well the aim as the intention of his mercy and compassion : if the latter , then it is as fully to restore him to his former reputation , to avoid his being impeached for any past crimes , and to encourage him to a reformation for the future . yet all this being granted , his lordship will have the pardon however to be allowed in the country where the crime was acted ; as if the king intended by every pardon he is pleased to grant , that the parties concerned shall be forced to go into the several counties wherein they have offended , and perhaps into all the counties of england , to have their pardon allowed ; but in regard that upon his lordships better consideration i was discharged , i will submit to his lordships condescention : adding this to my former experiences , that sometimes there may be a reason for great men to advise , as well as others . and thus i have exposed , with all submission and caution possible , those conceptions which the impressions of my severe and unequal usage brought to the assistance of my most serious thoughts . i shall now produce the arguments maintained by the kings learned-councel at the tryal of the lord castlemain , upon the same subject in point of law , of which the subsequent relation gives a true account . the wednesday sevennight after , the lord castlemain coming to his tryal , i was subpoena'd on his majesties behalf , by the advice of his learned councel , to be a witness against him ; and the matter of fact having reference to the same thing , i think fit to give an accompt thereof . the arguments in law on both sides , and the rosolution of the judges of the court of kings-bench , about my being a witness in the case of the earl of castlemaine . mr. att. g. call mr. dangerfield . e. of cast . stop a little , sir , my lord. mr. att. g. swear him . e. of cast . no , i hope not . mr. att. g. why not ? e. of cast . my lord , here is an affair of law , and that i must submit to your lordship and the court , whether mr. dangerfield be now to be admitted a witness , who hath been at this court upon the like occasion , and had the censure that he was not to be admitted a witness , but had his mouth stopped then ; and i hope i may be permitted to shew my reasons whether he may speak or no. l. c. j. my lord castlemaine , you must shew the exceptions you have against him , if you will bar him of being a witness . e. of cast . my lord , he is a person that is outlawed for felony , and a stigmatized man , he hath been in the pillory , and a great deal worse , he hath been burnt in the hand ; now if your lordship think it should be disputed , i desire you would allot me councel to argue the law , and then i shall submit to you . l. c. j. i think it very reasonable you should have councel assigned you : for whether he be stigmaticus , or infamous by the pillory , it is fit you should be heard by your councel , whether he be a good witness or no. mr. att. g. pray , my lord , let the objections be first made . e. of cast . i told you , sir , before , he is an outlawed man , he was convicted of felony , and ran away , and upon that escape he was outlawed . mr. att. g. when do you say he was outlawed ? e. cast . in the seven and twentieth year of the king. mr. att. g. we say then he hath a pardon , wherein that outlawry is pardoned . l. c. j. when is that pardon ? mr. att. g. in the th year of the king. l. c. j. but , my lord , how do you prove he was burnt in the hand ? for that will be the greatest exception . if a man for felony come to be burnt in the hand , whether that be such a stigmatizing as will render him uncapable of giving evidence . mr. att. g. we say our general pardon followeth that , and so purgeth it . then the record of the outlawry was admitted and read , and after that the newgate pardon , in which mr. dangersield was particularly named . dated the th of june , car. . l. c. j. for his burning in the hand , what say you , mr. atturney ? mr. att. g. his own pardon comes after that . l. c. j. as for the outlawry it is pardoned , and by that he is restored to be a witness again ; but of my lords desire to have councel assigned him to speak to this point , whether a man branded and burnt in the hand for felony , be after to be received as a witness , i see no reason but he should have it . mr. att. g. if your lordship make that a doubt . l. c. j. i do for my own part . first , in this matter i am clear , if a man were convicted of perjury , no pardon after will make him a witness , for that were to do the subject wrong . the pardon doth not make a man an honest man , but takes off those reproaches that lay upon him ; for the law is so wise , it will not suffer needless contumelies to be heaped upon him , as to be called perjured raskal and the like , which is only to prevent abusive language , that tends to the breach of the peace . but a man once convicted for perjury in a court of record , no pardon ought , or ever might set him up again . but indeed , that is not our case ; we are upon this single point , whether a man burnt in the hand , to whom after a pardon is granted , may be a witness ? though perhaps it is not so strong in this case , as it is in the other of perjury . for a man it may be would not wilfully forswear himself , that hath committed a robbery . but i think it reasonable , and there is no reason to deny it , that my lord should be allowed councel to speak to the single point as the case is here . who would you have assigned you my , lord ? e. cast . i do humbly beseech your lordship , since you have been so favourable as to allow me councel , that i may have assigned me mr. jones , mr. sanders , and mr. darnel . l. c. j. well , let it be so . mr. jones . if your lordship please , we desire that his pardon may be read . l. c. j. are you prepared for it to argue it now ? mr. jones . no , my lord. l. c. j. my lord castlemain , do you rest upon this exception onely ? e. cast . my lord , i stand upon both . l. c. j. the outlawry is expresly pardoned . e. cast . then i must submit to that . l. c. j. have you any other exception ? e. cast . my lord , i do humbly conceive the pillory is another exception , and that the burning in the hand will render him incapable of being a witness . mr. j. dolbin . unless they will admit that , you must prove it . l. c. j. but see , my lord , whether this be so necessary for your defence , as to protract this cause for the argument . your councel not being ready , the jury must be adjourned , and the tryal put off . i say this to you , because i think it is the duty of my place to discharge my conscience , both for the king and the prisoner . but admitting that the law should so fall out , to be as is insisted upon , that he is uncapable of being a witness , yet i will say this to you , you may give in evidence the records of these convictions of whatever sort , and they shall be read . it was said the last day , there was sixteen ; if there were six hundred , they should be all read , and they will go all to invalidate his credit , and ought to have that influence upon all the juries that such persons come before . e. cast . i do bring here sixteen records of his infamous practices . mr. att. g. we do allow that we have yet heard of but six . l. c. j. now , my lord , if you think it worth the while to put your councel to argue this point , whether he be to be a witness or no ; or whether you think it may be as well , supposing he be admitted , that by producing the records you invalidate his credit . mr. darnel . my lord , i humbly conceive , by the law that point may be saved to us . l. c. j. mind what it is you would have saved ; you would have him sworn , and then have it saved whether he ought to be sworn . e. cast . i would not have him sworn till the point be over-ruled . l. c. j. will your councel argue it now ? mr. darnel . i would humbly pray first the pardon may be read ; there are a great many several persons pardoned , and whether this be a good pardon to any one single person of all the offences therein . then the pardon was read , and the words outlawries and felonies were in . mr. att. g. that doth do it . l. c. j. why , mr. darnel , do you think at newgate they take out a several pardon for a joint felony ? mr. darnel . such i have seen ; but , my lord , i humbly conceive upon the exception of burning in the hand , he is no witness . and , my lord , i find it hath been adjudged in h. . . that a man attainted and pardoned , cannot be sworn of a jury . and the same question hath been resolved to since , in jac. reported in goldsboroughs reports , . and , my lord , in bulstrode's second part , , 't is brown and crashers case . my lord cooke is reported there to be of the same opinion ; and that book goes farther , that by the same reason the testimony of such an one as a witness is to be refused also . mr. justice jones . this is sir henry finch his case , is it not ? mr. j. dolbin . no , that is in godbolts reports . mr. darnel . and the reason my lord cooke gives , is this , he saith , that notwithstanding the pardon , he is not probus & legalis homo . and jac. in brownlowes reports , fol. . the king pardoned a man attainted of giving a false verdict ; and 't is adjudged there he shall not be a witness ; for the punishment was pardoned , yet the court said the guilt remained . m. att. g. that is but a short note in that book , and there is not so much in the book as you mention . mr. darnel . i wrote it out of the book word for word as i repeat it . the king may pardon simonie , but he cannot enable the simonist to retain ; and so is crooke , , smith and shelbournes case . mr. att. g. the act of parliament expresly makes him incapable . mr. darnel . i think the king might sure have dispensed with that incapacity , but the pardon could not take away the guilt . mr. att. g. no sure , i think he could not against the express words of the act. mr. darnel . he can dispense with the punishment ; and those other books are clear in it , that after the pardon the guilt remains : and for these reasons and authorities i do conceive he cannot be a witness . mr. att. g. i take it , it is clearly contrary to the constant general opinion , and the constant practice of the law. for when a man is pardoned , i take it you may not say he is perjured , nor he is a felon ; and he cannot be reputed so to any intent or purpose whatsoever . l. c. j. i shewed you the practice of law in that case was consonant to reason , for it was to prevent railing language , which tended to the breach of the peace ; but it is another thing for him to be repelled and hindred from being a witness . mr. j. dolbin . i do take it when the king pardons him , he makes him as if he had never committed the offence . mr. j. jones . no , not so neither , brother . l. c. j. is not his blood corrupted if he be outlawed ? and the pardon cannot restore that . mr. j. dolb. as to heirship it doth not , but it restores him to his ability to purchase , as if he had never forfeited that capacity . mr. att. g. and it makes him liber & legalis homo , for it hath been adjudged , that such an one may wage battle , which he which is not liber & legalis homo cannot do . and if he be liber , &c. he is certainly fit to be a good witness . nay , i do know in my own experience , in the point of perjury , after pardon he was ( and i saw him ) admitted as a witness , and that was one burroughs a yorkshire man. l. c. j. was it ever questioned and admitted upon debate ? mr. att. g. i cannot say that . l. c. j. and i have known it stood upon , and such an one rejected . mr. j. dolb. i have always taken it even in the case of perjury , that after a pardon he is a lawful witness ; his credit is indeed left to be what it will be to the jury , and the constant course as to felony is so . how many persons are there every sessions at newgate , convicted upon the testimony of persons concerned in the same offence , and pardoned ? l. c. j. was it ever opposed ? mr. recorder . i cannot adventure to say the question was made , but the judges knew them to be so concerned . l. c. j. will they take notice without the question put ? mr. recorder . i think they are bound if the law be so , not to let persons lose their lives upon such testimony . l. c. j. we cannot tell whether it be so or no , unless we have it stirred . mr. record . i know particularly at the last sessions , withringtons case who was pardoned , and after by his testimony divers others were convicted . l. c. j. was the record of his conviction shewn ? mr. record . they did all know it very well . l. c. j. was it a felony for stealing ? mr. record . my lord , it was for robbery on the high-way : if it were in a case between party and party , except there had been record of it made out in proof , it had been no objection to his testimony . but in the case of felony , where the life of the party is concerned , the law saith , the court are of councel for the prisoner ; and if the court doth know in fact , ( as this was notoriously known ) that the witnesses are convicted of felony , and in law that a pardon will not make them witnesses , they are obliged to urge it and make it known ; therefore their practice , and their not taking notice , seems an authority , that they ought to be allowed as witnesses , though it is true , their credit is left to the jury . l. c. j. what think you if a man hath his ears cut off in the pillory , and after a general pardon comes , which doth pardon those offences for which he underwent that punishment , do you think he is a good witness ? mr. att. g. i do think he is a lawful witness . l. c. j. doth the stigmatizing signifie nothing ? mr. att. g. but by the pardon he is restored to be liber homo , a freeman in his own person to all intents and purposes . mr. darnel . that book h. . hath expresly resolved , that he shall not be a juror ; and the reason is , because he is not probus & legalis homo , and i cannot see why the same reason should not exclude him from being a witness . mr. att. g. there is a great deal of reason for it ; for in many cases men can be witnesses that cannot be of jury . l. c. j. it is very true , there are many such cases ; but shew me one , where a man that is excluded from being a jury-man is to be admitted as a witness . mr. att. g. the brother or other relation of the party . l. c. j. but shew me one put by for infamy as a juror , yet admitted as a witness . mr. record . a juror is to judge what a witness saith , therefore a clearer reputation is required for him that is to be a judge , than him that is to give evidence ; and he that is to be a judge of anothers credit , should stand fair in his own ; so that all will depend on that , the credit is to be left to the jury . mr. att. g. and , my lord , as to disreputation , a villain was never admitted to be a juror , and yet never denyed as a witness , and that for infamy . l. c. j. what infamy is it ? mr. att. g. it was base . l. c. j. but it was not wicked , he might be honest though in servitude . mr. att. g. he could not be of a tales , where none almost are excluded . l. c. j. that was , because he was not talis as other men are . mr. att. g. no , it was because he was not liber homo , but the pardon here makes the party liber & legalis homo , and so restores him to a capacity of all purposes . mr. soll. g. but my lord hubbard doth expresly say in searlyes case , taking notice that upon the conviction there is poena & reatus , the pardon coming after doth take away both . l. c. j. that is my lord hobarts opinion ; and it is true , the very reatus is taken away , so as never to be remembred again in order to punishment ; but doth it set a man right as to reputation , as if he had never offended ? it cannot be so in reason , if twenty men come and tell me so . mr. j. dolb. certainly he is guilty still in strictness of conception , but the law saith , he is not guilty , and the law will admit such a man to be a witness ; but still such an one will be a bad one in our thoughts , for all the pardon . l. c. j. brother , i agree with you in that ; and if i were in my lord castlemains case , i would admit him , and not labour farther to dispute the law ; but when he has given his testimony , he shall have all these records proved against him to invalidate what they can . to which the earl of castlemaine seemed to consent , and acquiesce in the opinion . mr. j. jones . i do confess my lord hales in his little book of pleas of the crown , doth say , that after a man hath his clergy , he hath his credit . l. c. j. he doth so indeed , brother . mr. j. dolb. and the case that mr. atturney puts of waging battle , is as plain a case as can be , for none can wage battle , but he that is liber & legalis homo : for it might have been objected you broke prison , therefore you are not liber , &c. and cannot wage battle ; but if it were answered the king has pardoned it , he would be restored to be liber , &c. which is the same case in reason with this . mr. sol. g. that is a restitution to a capacity between party and party , and not as to the taking off the punishment onely and a discharge from the king. mr. j. dolb. it were well it were once setled , for we have it often in our circuits . j. jones . but the matter is at an end now , my l. of castlemain consents . mr. recorder . but , my lord , it will be a thing of great consequence to have it ruled ; and it much concerns me , in respect of my place , to be at some certainty about it ; for there is never a sessions in the old-bailey , but something of this nature will occur . no robbery can almost be discovered , but we must make use of such as have been accomplices ; the king pardons , that he may have evidence against others . l. c. j. but that is before conviction . mr. record . after conviction , my lord. mr. darnel . my lord , in my lord chief justice hides time , in such a case , it was adjudged he should be no witness . mr. att. g. where is that reported ? mr. darnel . i have such a note , but i cannot tell the cases name . mr. att. g. you tell us of a case without any thing to warrant its authority , and that no body ever heard of but your self . we desire mr. dangerfield may be sworn ; and truly if your lordship pleaseth , i have another thing to urge . l. c. j. have you any other witnesses to examine ? mr. att. g. none but what are to corroborate his testimony . but in the common case of an approver , he confesseth his own guilt , and yet is a good witness against the approver . l. c. j. but there is no conviction . mr. att. g. yes , his own confession . l. c. j. but how far is he a witness ? mr. att. g. his confession shall be recorded , and if he doth not convict those he approves , he shall die ; and so he swears to save himself , yet a good witness . l. c. j. the law thought it convenient to discover felonies , and such great offences ; which were hard to be done , but by some that were parties to the offence , and so would incourage them that would discover to convict the rest ; but here comes a person that is convicted , and infamous by another crime , and would by his evidence take away the life of another not accused for that crime for which he was pardoned , but another . and that word reatus in my lord hobard is capable of an interpretation another way ; and a man may have his guilt taken away as to some purposes , but not to other . mr. att. g. but the book saith , it takes away all disabilities too . l. c. j. i think there is a difference between a pardon before conviction and after . mr. soll. g. but in mr. atturneys first case , even before conviction , there was a legal disability upon his breaking of prison , by reason of which , he could not wage battle till pardoned . l. c. j. it is a disability upon a presumption , not upon conviction : for the law presumes a man that is innocent will abide his tryal ; but if he break prison and fly from justice , it argues guilt ; but in a man that is convicted , the guilt is plain . mr. soll. g. but , my lord , the presumption runs as high to the disability in the one case , as the conviction in the other ; if then the pardon can take away one disability e pari , it may the other also . mr. att. g. nay , if you please to look into my lord hobard , you will find he saith , that the very acceptance of a pardon implies a guilt . l. c. j. no , pray mr. atturney , i do not agree in that , i would not have it concluded , that every great man in england that hath a pardon , is guilty of the offences thereby pardoned . mr. j. jones . my lord , i take it there is a difference between a special pardon and a general pardon : for by taking a particular special pardon , there cannot but be intended a consciousness of guilt ; but if a person be included in a general pardon , there is no consideration of any particular offence , and the laying hold of that , implies not a guilt , for all have it , unless those particularly excepted , and we cannot suppose every one guilty . l. c. j. truly i think the acceptance of a special pardon doth not at all in itself , without confession or conviction , imply a man to be guilty of the crime pardoned . for you know my lord cook says , no wise man will refuse gods pardon and the king● at any time , though we are conscious of no actual crime to need it . and besides , in these times , when no man knows when he is safe from the perjuries that do so much abound , it may be prudence , without a confession or implicitation of guilt , to get a pardon , which we need not , but only as a shelter against a false accusation . then mr. justice raymund went down to the common-pleas . mr. j. jones . because we will not go either against reason or law , or constant practice , my brother raymund is gone down to ask the opinions of the judges of the common-pleas . mr. record . my lord hales doth in his little book say , it restores him to his credit . mr. att. g. if it hath restored him to his credit , i hope they shall not blemish him so much , as to make the jury not believe him . l. c. j. ay , but i assure you it shall have its due weight according to the crimes charged upon him ; all the records shall be read , and all that can be observed from them shall . mr. att. g. we do not desire but all that ought to be observed should so be . l. c. j. do you think we sit here to have men loaden with all the guilt of most infamous villanies in the world come here , by their evidence take away mens lives , and their qualifications not observed ? mr. j. dolbin . my brother will come up presently , and we shall hear what they say to it . l. c. j. we have men grown so insolent now adayes , that upon what account , or what sort of confidence to term it i know not , run all whole societies of men , and persons of all qualities , as if there were any thing in their confidence that could render them better , than their own villanous actions proclaim them to be . humility becomes penitents , and no wicked impudent man can be thought to repent ; but these mens behaviours hath nothing of an appearance of repentance , but with sauciness think to make all fly before them , and that their boldness in accusing , shall without more ado justifie the truth of their accusation : but god knows , they discover what they are by their insolent carriage . then mr. justice raymund returned and delivered the opinions of the other judges to my lord and the other two judges privately . l. c. j. look you , i will tell you what my brother reports their opinions in the common-pleas to be : he says , he put the question to them in both cases , that he is outlawed for felony and pardoned , and burnt in the hand for felony and pardoned . they say they are of opinion , that the general pardon would not restore him to be a witness , even as to the outlawry of felony , because of the interest the kings subjects have in him , and his testimony could not be received upon the general pardon . but they say this further , that where a man comes to be burnt in the hand for a felony , they look upon that as a kind of a more general discharge than the pardon alone would amount to , if he had not been burnt in the hand : if he had been convicted and not burnt , a general pardon would not have made him a good witness ; but by that and the pardon , they think he is made a legal witness . mr. darnel . notwithstanding the outlawry ? l. c. j. that is answered otherwise . mr. att. g. it is discharged ; come pray swear him , ( which was done . ) are you sworn , sir ? mr. dangerfield . yes , sir. mr. att. g. come sir , then now tell what you know of my l. castlemain . l. c. j. but i conceive by their opinions in the common-pleas , that they think a pardon after conviction of perjury would not restore him to be a witness , because of the interest the subject hath in his testimony . then i proceeded to deliver my evidence , which was to this effect . that about the month of june , , the lady powis sent me with a letter to the earl of castlemain , that being the first time i had ever been to wait on his lordship ; to which letter i received another in answer , and delivered it to the lady powis , who read it to me as follows , this person i like well , and though he be no scholar , yet he may serve to instruct the youths as he shall be directed , by which i shall be eased of much trouble and suspition . by those youths was meant the st. omers witnesses , for his lordship was their tutor . his lordship was one of those that imployed me to fetch knox and lane out of prison . some time after that , i went to wait on his lordship with some letters and lists of names , that came from nevel , and upon the perusal thereof , his lordship ordered me to imploy divers persons to write copies from them ; saying , it was a business of consequence , and must not be delayed . then i informed him , that persons were at that very time , a writing at powis-house ; then his lordship replyed , let them go on and be encouraged , and i will pay my part , which his lordship did ; for some time after , i sent william woodman , then servant to mrs cellier , with a letter to his lordship , who in answer thereto sent forty shillings for his part of the writing . now those letters , and those which i put into colonel mansels chamber , were all agreeable in matter of fact , and tended onely in concurrency to the sham-plot . his lordship wrote the compendium , and i read one part of it as it lay before him at the same time . his lordship perused the papers of knox and lane , who intended to accuse dr. oates with sodomy ; and his lordship was also privy , and gave consent to the drawing up , and swearing to the false affidavits which lane made before sir james butler . the next day after i had been treated with by the lords in the tower to kill the king , i went to wait on the lord castlemain , who having sent his servant out of the room , demanded of me , why i was so unwilling to do that , for which i was taken out of prison . i desired to know what that was ? why , says his lordship , were you not yesterday at the tower ? i answered , yes , i was ; and then said , would your lordship have me kill the king , for that 's it you mean , i suppose ? then his lordship said , that was the business he meant ; and then he storm'd , and was so furious , that i cared not to stay any longer . that his lordship was privy to my part of the sham-plot , and used in his discourse to call the king tyrant . this was the true substance of my evidence , which being backt with woodman 's , the court proceeded , &c. finis . the tryal and condemnation of mr. will. staley for high-treason, at the kings-bench-bar at westminster, on thursday the st of nov. who was there condemned to be hang'd, drawn, and quarter'd for speaking of desperate, malicious, and treasonable words against the kings most excellent majesty : with the particular evidence given against him, the defence he made for himself, and all other material circumstances. staley, william, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and condemnation of mr. will. staley for high-treason, at the kings-bench-bar at westminster, on thursday the st of nov. who was there condemned to be hang'd, drawn, and quarter'd for speaking of desperate, malicious, and treasonable words against the kings most excellent majesty : with the particular evidence given against him, the defence he made for himself, and all other material circumstances. staley, william, d. . p. printed for r.g., london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng england and wales. -- court of king's bench. trials (treason) -- england. treason -- great britain. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal and condemnation of mr. will. staley for high-treason , at the kings-bench-bar at westminster , on thursday the st of nov. . who was there condemned to be hang'd , drawn , and quarter'd for speaking of desperate , malicious , and treasonable words against the kings most excellent majesty . with the particular evidence given against him , the defence he made for himself , and all other material circumstances . licensed , . london : printed for r. g. . the tryal and condemnation of mr. will. staley a papist . this person that now received tryal , was by trade a goldsmith , and by profession , as to religion , a papist . he had been bred a considerable part of his time beyond the seas , and there , 't is fear'd , by too much familiarity with the jesuits , had imbib'd some of their desperate principles . the sum of the matter upon proof against him , appeared to be thus : three gentlemen that by their garb , behaviour , and testimony of divers that knew them , appeared to be persons of worth and unreproachable credit , gave evidence against him , that upon the fourteenth day of this instant november , they being at a cooks shop in the parish of st. gileses , the prisoner at bar was with another man in a room opposite to that they were in ; and the door being open , they had a perfect sight of the prisoner , and were not above eight foot or thereabouts distant from him , when they stood at their door : and that the prisoner being discoursing with the old man that was with him , the old man said in french , that the king of england was a great persecutor or tormentor of the people of god ( meaning , as we must understand , papists ) . in answer to which , the prisoner at bar , stamping with his foot several times , and appearing to be in passion , said ( likewise in french ) words too insolent and malicious to be repeated and translated . and ( stretching forth his arm , and then clapping his hand on his breast ) speaking of his sacred majesty , said , i my self will kill him . and that afterwards they heard him say , that the king and parliament thought the business ( meaning the plot ) was over , but the rogues ( so this villain was pleased to call them ) were mistaken . two of these three gentlemen well understood french , but the third did not : however , the other two at the same instant express'd their loyalty , by telling him , with much commendable zeal , that the person in the next room spoke most detestable treason , and that they could not endure to hear it , repeating the sense of their words in english : and as for the words le roy d'angleterre , though he understood not the language , now deposed , he perfectly heard as well as they . but none of the three at that time knowing the now prisoner , nor having to their knowledg ever seen him before , and he with his companion just upon speaking the aforesaid words , being about going , one of the witnesses watcht him to the place where he went unto , being his father's house , and upon enquiry learn'd his name , &c. that next morning they came thither , and upon colour of buying something , carried him to the cross-keys tavern over against his dwelling ; where they staid three hours or thereabouts , whilst one of them went to seek , and could not in all that time procure a constable , because he had no warrant from a justice . but having at last got some from the guard at white-hall , and a constable , they seiz'd him ; and after examination , he was committed first to the gatehouse , and afterwards sent to newgate ; from whence he was now with a strong guard conducted , having on the day before been arraigned . he had the honour to have a most worthy jury , most of them knights and squires , all gentlemen of quality : nor had ever man a more fair and equal hearing ; but the defence that he made was frivolous ; sometimes alledging that the distance between him and the witnesses was greater , yet owned that the door was not shut . he also much insisted that they mistook the french words he spoke ; and whereas they rendred it in english , i my self would kill him , he affirmed that he meant and said , i would kill my self . but as well the witnesses testimony , as the sense of the foregoing and subsequent discourse took off that evasion . he further pretended that the old man ( whom he said was one of his workmen ) did not speak french , but a jargon , or kind of italian ; but the two witnesses being questioned to that , absolutely disproved it , affirming what was then spoken was french , and that they well understood it ; and several times repeated the very words both french and the english thereof in court. and besides , though it was asserted that the prisoner was offered to have what person he had occasion for summoned to attend at his tryal ; and that a gentleman was so kind , as to go to the prisoners fathers house with a note of several persons names that he ●●sired should appear on his behalf ; among●●●hom was the aforesaid old man that was with him at the time of speaking the words , and notice was given thereof to one of their agents ; yet the aforesaid old man , who it seems was a kind of italian , did not think fit to appear ; so that upon a full discussion of all that the prisoner had to say , the crime appeared so evidently proved , upon the statute made in the reign of our present soveraign for the preservation of his royal person , that without withdrawing from the bar , the jury found him guilty , and accordingly he forthwith received sentence to be drawn and hang'd , his bowels burnt , his body to be quartered , and disposed on the city gates , &c. finis . a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly; from friday the th of this instant january, to munday the th; being a full and true account of the tryals, examinations, and condemnations of several malefactors, for several crimes. and also an account of the tryal of four several persons for committing four several murthers. a man for killing a bayliff, a boy for killing his fellow prentice, a man for killing his fellow-workman, and another for killing a man in black fryers. with an account how many are condemn'd, how many burn'd in the hand, to be transported, whipt at the carts tail, and to stand in the pillory. with permission, roger l'estrange approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly; from friday the th of this instant january, to munday the th; being a full and true account of the tryals, examinations, and condemnations of several malefactors, for several crimes. and also an account of the tryal of four several persons for committing four several murthers. a man for killing a bayliff, a boy for killing his fellow prentice, a man for killing his fellow-workman, and another for killing a man in black fryers. with an account how many are condemn'd, how many burn'd in the hand, to be transported, whipt at the carts tail, and to stand in the pillory. with permission, roger l'estrange england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) p. printed for d.m., london : in the year . copy has print show-through. reproduction of the original in the guildhall library, london. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england -- early works to . crime -- england -- early works to . criminals -- england -- early works to . murder -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - derek lee sampled and proofread - derek lee text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly ; from friday the th of this instant january , to munday the th ; being a full and true account of the tryals , examinations , and condemnations of several malefactors , for several crimes . and also an account of the tryal of four several persons for committing four several murthers . a man for killing a bayliff , a boy for killing his fellow-prentice , a man for killing his fellow-workman , and another for killing a man in black fryers . with an account how many are condemn'd , how many burn'd in the hand , to be transported , whipt at the carts tail , and to stand in the pillory . with permission , roger l'estrange . london : printed for d. m. in the year . a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly . i shall , with as much brevity and truth as may be , give you a candid account of the trials of the several prisoners at the old-bayly ; and begin first with an irish man servant to a person of quality , who was indicted for stealing two hundred pounds from his said master ; but though some circumstances seem'd to stick close to him , yet he was acquitted by the jury . the next were two youngsters that came to a pastery cook's house , and called for a chamber and a fire , and there continued till they had ordered their business , so as to take two silver tankards away with them : one went out of the door , and the other out of the window by a small rope . the first was taken and tried ; and found guilty ; the last escaped with the booty . after this a milliner was indicted for breaking open a shop in covent garden ; but the principal evidence was one who had encouraged the sufferers to prosecute the said millener ; but in regard several pieces of ribbin were found in the milleners shop , that were taken out of the said shop in covent garden : the judge gave orders for another bill to be drawn against the milliner , and that he should be indicted as an accessary , upon which he was found guilty . after this , one was indicted for stealing several sheep , four of which were found in his custody , and also the skins of many more ; so that he pleaded guilty to all felonies within the benefit of the clergy upon his first indictment . the next was one who was arraigned and tried for a burglary committed in the house of a person of quality in the parish of st. giles's in the fields ; he running from thence was stopped by a blackamore : but nothing being taken away , he was acquitted . after this a woman was indicted , for that she together with two men , not yet taken , went into a house in the city , and pretended themselves persons of quality , one of the men saying he was steward to a person of honour , and the other a gentleman newly come from ireland ; they desired lodgings , and their requests were answered , and at night , it being christmas time , they desired to play a game at cards , for their divertisement , with their landlord , and he to oblidge them readily compli'd ; but the landlady being gone a gossiping or visiting , and none left but her husband and these new-come-gentlefolks at home , they desired him to send out for some double beer for them ; he stept to the next door and bid the maid bring it in : after that they called for wine , and he sent the same maid to fetch it ; then a little after they desired that he would fetch them some more double beer himself , and as soon as he was gone they took a candle and run up stairs to his chamber and broke his closet open , and took stom thence a silver tankard and money , to the value of twenty pounds , and left him only a light upon the stairs to see his losses : away march'd they , but some days after this woman was met with and brought , to newgate , and from thence to the bar , where she pleaded that one of the men that took away the money and plate was her husband , and produced a certificate from the parson of pancross to affirm it ; but the jury supposing it to be counterfeit , found her guilty , and the chiefest comfort she is like to have is transportation . now follows a bloody murther committed by one in whitechappel ; as soon as a bayliff had told him that he arrested him , he with a strange weapon run the officer into the belly , and made a pass at another , but though he mift his body , he hit his clothes : this hector with new supplies , was quickly secur'd ; and when one told him that he had kill'd the bayliff , he repli'd , if i have not i wish i had , and being sent from the justice of peace to newgate , he told his guard , if he had not killed him he should have gone to prison on foot , but now in a coach ; but for all he made so slight on 't then , he was in a more serious and sensible humour at the bar , and labour'd to excuse it with all the rhetorick he had , and all was too little , for the jury brought him in guilty , and jack ketch will make him free . another unhappy murther haypened at westminster by the discord of two young lads , who quarrel'd about cutting their apron-strings , being shoomakers , the younger not knowing how to revenge him self , took a threepeny knife and stabb'd the other , who run out of the shop with his bowels in his hands , cri'd , lord have mercie upon my soul , daniel has kill'd me . the lord chief baron after he had heard the evidence , wish'd the jury to consider whether the boy understood what he had done or not , he being but thirteen years and a month old , the jury afterwards brought him in guilty of man's slaughter . then a woman was indicted for high-treason ; she came into a shop and desired the master thereof to give her two sixpences for a shilling , he took the shillling , and perceiving it to be clipt , told her that she deserved to be questioned how she came by it ; upon which she run out of the shop as fast as she could , then persuite was made after her , and she was overtaken and brought back and carried before a justice of peace , who upon ezamination , said , her husband gave it to her ; they asked where she lodged , and having found her lodgings out , they found pots and sheers , and other necessaries for that imployment ; but in regard they rather supposed her absent husband to be guilty than her ; the jury favourably brought her in not guilty . after this , anothtr was indicted for killing one at clarendon house with a saw ; he was making a tool , and the deceased told him he should make none there , the other said he would ; then the deceased struck at him two or three times , which occasioned the other to strike him upon the arm with a mallet , which he was then using , the deceased challeng'd the other to sight , but he desired quietness , and would not ; then the deceased went to lock him in , the other prevented him by being too quick ; then he giving some more blows , the other struck him with the back of a saw which he had in his hand , and his hat being off he split his skull almost to his brains , of which wound he died in a little time ; and in regard , it did not appear to be a premeditated quarrel , the offender was only found guilty of mansslaughter . another was tried for murther , who happened into a house in black fryers with a young man : after breakfast was ended , they had a few quarrelsome words ; he that was kill'd affronted the other both in words and blows , and not being satisfi'd with that , urged him to wrestle with him , who refus'd it and left the room ; then he followed him and continued his abuses so long till at last he threw him down two or three times ; they parted then , and he that occasion'd the quarrel was arrested the next day ; and continuing in a poor condition upon the boards , and induring other hardship he died ; so that one made affidavit that the deceased charged him that quarrelled with him , for the murthering of him , by throwing him down several times and falling upon him , but the chyrurgeon clear'd him of that guilt , who supposed it a natural death , therefore he was acquitted . readers , what can subdue , what can asswage the bloody hands of men this sinful age ? a fervent prayer from a religious heart . these and far greater judgments can divert . then labour hard for such a frame as this , by which you heav'n may gain , and hell may miss . a yong man and woman were tried for a fellony committed by them at wapping , the woman being entertained as a servant , did the next day run away with a silver tankard , a farrenden-gown , and many other things . the gentlewoman missing them , used all the endeavours she could to procure them , and employing a thief-catcher , by the description given of her , he directed her ro the servant-maid that stole them from her ; who being apprehended told them where they were pawn'd and sold , and how the young man bid her sell them , and if she was questioned , he would come to justifie that the goods belonged to her mistress , who employed her to sell them . there being proof enough to make him appear an accessary , they were both found guilty of fellony . a porter was tryed for burglary , but it appeared that the woman prosecuted him out of envy ; for she said , that he came and broke open her house one morning ; whereas others of more repute said , that he was very familiar with her , and that same night did continue with her from five at night till seven in the morning , and he pawn'd his silver ticket for five shillings , and sent for six penny worth of ale , and call'd in a black-pudding man to give her a treat . several persons spoke in his behalf , and said , that he was a very honest man : and there being no proof that he had taken any thing from her , he was acquitted . there was an irishman tryed for a cheat , which was as follows , he with a footman came to a watch-makers shop , and desired to see some watches for his master ; after he had seen several , he pitch'd upon two , and desired that he would carry them or send them to his master , he therefore sent his man with them , the one being a gold the other a silver watch , and when they came to the temple he desired to carry them up to his master , whom he pretended was in bed , but as soon as he had got them he run away with them ; the other persued him , and afterwards brought him to a justice of peace , and he committed him to prison , and upon his tryal was found guilty of the cheat. there were three men and three women condemned , four ordered to be transported , and sixteen burn'd in the hand , and five to be whipt at the carts tail , and the said cheat design'd for the pillory . finis . an exact narrative of the tryal and condemnation of john twyn for printing and dispersing of a treasonable book with the tryals of thomas brewster, bookseller, simon dover, printer, nathan brooks, bookbinder, for printing, publishing, and uttering of seditious, scandalous, and malitious pamphlets : at justice-hall in the old-bayly, london, the th, and th of february, / . twyn, john, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing e estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an exact narrative of the tryal and condemnation of john twyn for printing and dispersing of a treasonable book with the tryals of thomas brewster, bookseller, simon dover, printer, nathan brooks, bookbinder, for printing, publishing, and uttering of seditious, scandalous, and malitious pamphlets : at justice-hall in the old-bayly, london, the th, and th of february, / . twyn, john, d. . brewster, thomas. dover, simon. brooks, nathan. [ ], p. printed by thomas mabb for henry brome ..., london : . "published by authority" reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng brewster, thomas -- trials, litigation, etc. dover, simon -- trials, litigation, etc. brooks, nathan -- trials, litigation, etc. twyn, john, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. freedom of the press -- england. trials (seditious libel) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - ali jakobson sampled and proofread - ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an exact narrative of the tryal and condemnation of john twyn , for printing and dispersing of a treasonable book , with the tryals of thomas brewster , bookseller . simon dover , printer . nathan brooks , bookbinder . for printing , publishing , and uttering of seditious , scandalous , and malitious pamphlets . at justice-hall in the old-bayly london , the th . and th . of february / . published by authority . london , printed by thomas mabb for henry brome at the gun in ivy-lane . . to the reader . it is by authority , that these tryals are published ; and exact care has been taken , that the criminals may be as fairly used in the narrative , as they were at the bar ; and how they were there dealt with , let the reader judge . it may be noted in the first place , that of four lives forfeited to the law , the kings incomparable clemency would take but one : for ( as the lord chief justice hide , often , and excellently observed ) it was only his majesties mercy toward the other three , to call that a misdemeanour , which the law calls treason . in the next place may be observed , the tenderness of the court , not only in the large allowances of freedom , and favour to the prisoners , while they were upon their tryals , but in the adjournment of the sessions from saturday till munday , only for their sakes ; that they might want nothing , which even they themselves thought necessary for their defence . and thirdly ; it is considerable , that the one half of the jury were book-sellers and printers , whose interest lay against the verdict , if they had not been governed by a stronger impulse of loyaltie and justice . to descant upon the hainousness of their offences , is not within the prefacers commission ; neither shall any mention be made unnecessarily of their names ; but to speak one word concerning the books themselves , for which they have suffered ; and another , touching the reasons of laying open to the world , what is here exposed , will not i presume be altogether impertinent , or vseless . of the treatise for which twyn dyed , a little shall suffice . it was moulded and timed for the th ▪ of october , and any man that shall compare the cast , and bias of it , with the rebels late declaration in the north , will swear that they were both written with the same ink. it was in fine , an arrow drawn out of a presbyterian quiver [ lex rex ] the very shaft , that formerly pierced the late king through the heart , now levelled at this. as to the pamphlets whereupon the other three were indicted : viz the speeches , and prayers of some of the late kings judges , &c. be it known to the reader , that this book was not , as it pretends to be , a true account of the words ( written , or spoken ) of dying men ; but a meer forgery and imposture , fathered upon those , that were executed ; but contrived by the traytors that scaped ; as deeming it their safest way , to publish the designs of the living , in the words of the dead ; and the most conducing to their project of destroying the present king , to perswade the multitude into a good opinion of the murder of the last . to conclude ; notorious it is , that the whole libel is a cheat , the letters and speeches a counterfeit , and framed only by recommending one rebellion , to stir up another . the phaenix , ( whereupon brewster only was indicted ) was printed soon after the burning of the covenant by order of parliament , and bears for the device , a phaenix rising out of the flames . the drift of which book is to charge damnation upon the deserters of that impious league , and to authorize a rebellion . upon the whole businesse , these are but three of above three hundred several sorts of treasonous , seditious , schismatical , and scandalous books , libels , and papers , printed since his majesties return ; which are already gathered into a catalogue , and the pamphlets themselves in readinss to be produced , whensoever authority shall require it . ( beside those numbers that have escaped the observation of the collector ) if there be any man that will yet pretend to doubt of a settled , formal plot against his sacred majesty , and the establish'd government ; let him but advise , with these horrible luxuriances of the press , and he shall either renounce his reason , or confess , that the generality of all the separate factions , within the kings dominions , are engaged in the conspiracy , and it is no more wonder to find a people distemper'd , that 's entertain'd with poyson , instead of wholesome nourishment , then to see the sea rage , when the winds blow . thus much said , might seem to give the disaffected party a greater reputation then convenient , were it not that their maine design has lately suffered so fatal a disappointment ; that many of them are at this instant , under a course of justice ; others in custody , and expecting it ; and the residue neither in humour , nor condition to prosecute the quarrel ; being so fully satisfied of the vigilance , power , and activity of the kings friends , ( which in effect , are as many , as either love the publique , or themselves ) that they find it morally impossible for them ever to bring any villanie to perfection , upon so desperate a bottome ; beside that they have undeceived the world , and made appear to his sacred majesty , that all mercy is lost upon them . to pass now to the reasons of publishing this relation , and there to make an end. first , there has not been any one traytor cut off by the stroke of justice , since the blessed time of his majesties restauration , whose case , and tryal has not been surreptitiously printed , and published ; and impudently , in justification of the offender , with most scandalous reflections upon the king , and his government ( except the late tryals in the north , which are violently presumed , to be at this instant upon the forge ) so that , to prevent mis-informations , is one reason of publishing this narrative . a second is , to manifest the insufferable liberties of the presse , and the necessity of bringing it into better order . thirdly and lastly , it is published for a caution to all persons whatsoever , that they may see the hazzard of dispersing of books , as well as printing of them , and to the end that none presume to flatter themselves with an expectation of coming off , in cases of treason and sedition , upon the plea of trade , or ignorance . his majesty being justly resolved upon a strict , and necessary severity toward all offenders in that kind for the future . five several indictments beeing drawn up , viz. one , of high-treason ; against john twyn , printer , and the other four , for sedition , viz. two against thomas brewster , book seller ▪ one against simon dover , printer ▪ and one against nathan brooks , bookbinder , were presented to the grand-inquest in london , at the sessions of goale delivery of newgate , holden at justice-hall in the old baily , the th ▪ day of february . except that against brooks , which was found the day following , by the same inquest . and after divers witnesses were sworn and examined before the said grand inquest , the said bils of indictment were severally returned , billa vera . the names of the said grand inquest , being as followeth , viz. arthur jourdan , arthur browne , simon rogers , james whetham , ralph blore , isaack barton , roger locke thomas cooper , roger hart , john watson , christopher pits , thomas gerrard , john cropper , thomas partington , ralph coppinger , matthew pelazer . samuell taylor . at justice-hall in the old-bayly . february . in the morning . the court being set , proclamation was made : o tes , all manner of persons , that have any thing more to doe at this sessions of the peace and sessions of oyer and terminer , held for the city of london , and sessions of goale delivery , holden for the citty of london , and county of middlesex , ●aw near and give your attendance , for now the court will proceed to the pleas of the crown of the said city and county . god save the king. silence commanded . clerk of the peace . set john twyn to the bar , [ who was set there accordingly . ] clerk john twyn , hold up thy hand . twyn i desire to understand the meaning of it ; [ but being told he must held up his hand in order to his tryall , he held it up ] clerk. &c. thou standest indicted in london by the name of john twyn late of london stationer , for that thou as a false traitor against the most illustrious charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland , king ; defender of the faith , &c. thy supream and natural lord and soveraign — , not having the feare of god in thine heart , nor weighing the duty of thy allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devill , and the cordiall love , true duty , and natural obedience , which true and faithfull subjects towards our soveraign lord the king , bear and of right ought to bear , altogether withdrawing , minding and with all thy sorce intending the peace and common tranquility of this kingdome to disturbe ; and sedition and rebellion within these his majesties kingdomes to move , stir up , and procure ; and discord between our said soveraign and his subjects to make and move ; the . day of october in the year of the reign of our said soveraign lord charls the second , by the grace of god &c. the th . at the parish of st. bartholmews in the ward of farrington without london aforesaid , traiterously didst compose , imagine , and intend the death and final destruction of our said soveraign lord the king , and the ancient and regal government of this kingdome of england to change , and subvert : and our said soveraign lord the king of his crown , and regall government to depose , and deprive ; and these thy most wicked treasons , and traiterous imaginations to fulfill , thou the said john twyn , the said . day of october in the year aforesaid , in the parish and ward aforesaid , advisedly , devillishly and maliciously didst declare , by imprinting a certain seditious , poysonous and scandalous book , entituled , a treatise of the execution of justice , &c. — in which said book , amongst other things , thou the said j. twyn , the th . day of october in the year aforesaid , in the parish and ward aforesaid , falsely , maliciously and traiterously didst imprint , &c. — against the duty of thy allegiance , and the statute in that case made and provided ; and against the peace of our said soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity . what sayest thou , john twyn , art thou guilty of this high treason , whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? twyn . i desire leave to speak a few words ; my lord , i am a very poore man : i have been in prison severall moneths — cl. are you guilty , or not guilty ? twyn . with all due submission to your honours ; i desire to speak a few words — lord chief just hide , you must first plead to your indictment , and then you may say what you will ; that 's the rule of the law ; we receive no expostulations till you have pleaded to the indictment , guilty or not guilty . twyn . i do not intend to answer to the indictment , by what i shall now say ; i am a poore ▪ man , have a family and three smal children , i am ignorant of the law , and have been kept prisoner divers moneths . — l. hide pray plead to the indictment ; you shall be heard ; say what you will afterwards . twyn i humbly thank you my lord. cl. are you guilty , or not guilty ? twyn . i beseech you to allow me councel , and some consideration ; i desire it with all submission . l. ch. ju. hide . you must plead first ; then aske what you will. cl. are you guilty or not guilty . twyn . not guilty of those crimes . l. ch. ju. hide . god forbid you should . cl. how wilt thou be tryed ? twyn i desire to be tryed in the presence of that god that is the searcher of all hearts , and the disposer of all things . l. ch. ju. hide . god almighty is present here ; there is no other tryal by the law of england , but by god , and the peers ; that is the countrey ; honest men . you shall have all your challenges , and all that 's due to you , by the help of god ; we are bound to be your councel , to see you have no wrong ; therefore put your self upon your tryal , say how you will be tryed . twyn . i desire to be tried in the presence of god. l. ch. ju. hide . so you shall ; god almighty is present here ; looks down , and beholds what we do here , and we shall answer severely if we do you any wrong . we are as carefull of our soules , as you can be of yours . you must answer in the words of the law. twyn . by god , and the countrey . cl. god send thee a good deliverance . l. ch. ju. hide . now say what you will. twyn . i am a very poor man. l. ch. ju. hide . nay , let me interrupt you thus farr , what ere you speak in your defence to acquit your self of this crime , that you may reserve till by and by ; this is but an arraignment , afterwards the evidence for the king is to be heard , then make your defence ; if you have any witnesses on your part , let 's know their names , we 'le take care they shall come in . if i did not mistake ; you desired to have councell ; was that your request ? twyn . yes . l ch. ju. hide . then i will tell you , we are bound to be of councell with you , in point of law ; that is , the court , my brethren , and my self , are to see that you suffer nothing for your want of knowledg , in matter of law ; i say , we are to be of councell with you ; but for this horrid crime , ( i will hope in charity you are not guilty of it , but if you are ) it is the most abominable and barbarous treason that ever i heard of , or any man else ; the very title of the book ( if there were no more ) is as perfectly treason as possibly can be : the whole book through ; all that is read in the indictment ; not one sentence , but is as absolute high treason , as ever i yet heard of . a company of mad brains , under pretence of the worship and service of god to bring in all villanies and atheisme , ( as is seen in that cook ) what a horrid thing is this ! but you shall have free liberty of defending your self . to the matter of fact ; whether it be so or no ; in this case , the law does not allow you councel to plead for you ; but in matter of law , we are of councell with you , and it shall be our care to see that you have no wrong done you . cl. set simon dover to the barr ; [ who being set , his indictment was read , to the purpose following . ] thou standest indicted in london , by the name of simon dover , late of london , stationer , for that thou , &c. the th . day of february , in the th . year of the reign , &c. at the parish of st. leonards fosterlane , in the ward of aldevsgate , london , falsly maliciously and wickedly didst imprint a certain , fals , malicious , scandalous and seditious book , intituled . - the speeches and prayers of some of the late kings judges &c. and the same didst sell & vtter , against the duty of thy allegiance , &c. how sayest thou simon dover ; art thou guilty of this sedition and offence , whereof thou standest indicted ; or not guilty ? dover , my lord , and the honourable bench , i desire i may be heard a few words , — l. ch ju. hide . when you have pleaded , you shall . dover , i shall be willing to plead , — l. ch ju. hide . you must either confess it , or plead not guilty . i hope you are not guilty of this foule crime . dover , i am not , by the laws of england , guilty l. ch. ju. hide , you shall be tryed by the laws of england , whether you are guilty or no. dover , i am willing to be so , and i am glad i am come before you to that purpose ; having been long a prisoner , i am not guilty of any thing in this indictment , neither as to matter , time , nor place . l. ch. ju. hide , what do you mean by time , and place ? dover , i am not guilty in manner or forme ; and now my lord , i being altogether ignorant of the law , i humbly beg councell , and a copie of my indictment ; i hope i shall not be destroyed , because i am ignorant of the law ; i have been eighteen weeks close prisoner . l. ch. ju. hide , what would you have ? dover , i desire time and councell assigned me , and a copie of my indictment . l. ch. ju. hide , for a copie of your indictment , though it be for a foule offence , yet ( in favour to you , it being not made so capital as the other ) we cannot deny it you , for councel , you may have what you will , we need not assign it . [ make him a copie , ] but i will tell you , we shall try it , now . dover , i do protest i knew not what i came for , i never imagined what my indictment was , i know not what there 's in 't . — l. ch. ju. hide , you shall have a copie made presently ; if you have councel , or witnesses , send for them ; we must try you to day , but you will have some time , for we will begin with the other . dover , i beg i may have a copie of the indictment , in english , i cannot understand latine . l. ch. ju. hide . that that is against you , is in english ; the latine signifies no more , but that you did seditiously and malitiously print all that which is in english dover , i hope i have done nothing , but i shall acquit my self of . l. ch. ju. hide , i hope you may ; but we can give you nothing but a copie of the record : send for your own clerke to understand it . cl. set thomas brewster to the barr. [ who was set ; and then his indictment was read ; ] which was , that he the faid , thomas brewster , late of london stationer , not having , &c. ( in the forme aforesaid ) the th . day of february , &c. at the parish of little st. bartholmews , in the ward of farington without london , maliciously , &c. did cause to be imprinted the aforesaid book of speeches , and prayers , &c. and the same did sell and vtter , against the duty , &c. who being demanded whether he was guilty of that sedition and offence ? answered . not guilty . cl. how will you be tryed ? brewster , by god and the countrey . cl. god send thee a good deliverance . l ch. ju. hide , say what you will now . brewster , may it please your lordship , i am wholy ignorant of the proceedings of the law ; i have been a close prisoner these eighteen weeks , no body to advise with me , scarce my wife suffered to come to me ; i desire some time to take advice . l ch ▪ ju. hide , i doubt we shall not be able ? if you mean till next sessions , — brewster , no my lord , i have had too long imprisonment already , would i had been here the first sessions after i was a prisoner . lord ch. ju. hide . if you desire a copie of the indictment , and councel , you shall have it . brewster ▪ i humbly thank you ; but i must have time to consult them , or they will do me little good . l ch ju. hide , if you have any friends , or witnesses , you may send for them . brewster , i thank you my lord. cl. thomas brewster , thou standst again indicted in london by the name of , &c. for that thou not having , &c. the th . day of july , in the th . year , &c. at the parish of little st. bartholmews , in the ward of farington without london , &c. falsely , maliciously , scandalously and seditiously , didst cause to be imprinted ; a book intituled , the phaenix , or the solemn league and covenant : &c. — and the said book didst sell and vtter , against the duty , &c. how saist thou ? art thou guilty of this sedition and offence , whereof thou standest indicted ; or not guilty . brewster , not guilty my lord. cl. how will you be tryed ? brewster , by god and the countrey . cl. nathan brooks to the barr. thou standest indicted in london by the name of nathan brooks , late of london stationer ; not having , &c. ( the same as to make time and place with that of dovers ) and knowing the said book to be scandalous and seditious ; did sell , vtter , and publish the same against the duty , &c. how sayst thou nathaniel brooks ? art thou guilty of this sedition and offence whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty . brooks , not guilty . cl. how will you be tryed ? brooks , by god and the countrey . cl. god send thee a good deliverance . l. hide , if you desire to have a copie of your indictment , and councel , you may have it . brooks , i am a poor man , i have not money to get councel , i hope i shall not want that that belongs to me by law , for want of money . l hide , you shall not by the grace of god. cl. set john twin , simon dover , thomas brewster , and nathan brooks to the barr. cl. john twyn , those men that you shall hear called , and personally appear , must pass between our soveraign lord the king and you , upon trial of your life and death ; if you will challenge them , or any of them , you must do it when they come to the book to be sworn , before they be sworn ; and you that are for the seditions and offences , look to your challenges . dover , we desire we may have a jury of book-sellers and printers ; they being the men that only understand our businesse . l , hide , there are those already that understand it as well as book-sellers or printers ; besides , half the jury are such , and they are able to make the rest understand it , but you may challenge whom you will. the jury were , william samborne , william hall , william rutland , john williams , thomas honylove , james flesher , robert lucas , simon waterson , robert beversham , samuel thomson , richard royston thomas roycrost . who were severally sworn by the oath following . you shall well and truly try , and true deliverance make , between our soveraign lord the king , and the prisoners at the barr whom you shall have in charge according to your evidence , so help you god. all foure . we are all satisfied with this jury . cl. cryer , make proclamation . o yes , if any one can informe my lords , the kings justices , the kings serjeant , or the kings attorney , before this inquest be taken between our soveraign lord the king , and the prisoners at the barr , let them come forth and they shall be heard , for now the prisoners stand at the barr upon their deliverance ; and all others that are bound by recognizance to give evidence against any of the prisoners at the barr , come forth and give evidence , or else you will forfeit your recognizance . cl. john twyn , hold up thy hand , you of the jury look upon the prisoner and hearken to his cause , you shall understand that he stands indicted in london , by the name of john twyn late of london , stationer ; [ here the indictment is read over again ; ] vpon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto hath pleaded not guilty ; and for his tryal , hath put himself upon god and the countrey , which countrey you are ▪ your charge is to inquire whether he be guilty of the high treason , in manner and forme as he stands indicted , or not guilty ; if you finde him guilty , you shall inquire what goods and chattels , lands and tenements he had at the time of committing the said treason , or at any time sithence : if you finde him not guilty , you shall inquire whether he fled for it ; if you finde that he fled for it , you shall inquire of his good and chattels , lands and tenements , as if you had found him guilty ; if you finde him not guilty , nor that he did fly for it , say so , and no more , and heare your evidence . mr. north , barrister of the law. john twyn , stands here indicted , for that he as a false traytor to the most illustrious charles the second , &c. not having the fear of god before his eyes nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , &c. [ here was opened the form of the indictment ] to which he hath pleaded not guilty ; if there shall be sufficient evidence given you of the charge in the indictment you must do the king and the nation that justice as to finde him guilty , that sentence of law may passe upon him . mr. serjeant morton , may it please your lordships , and you gentlemen that are sworn of this jury , i am of councell with the king ▪ against john twyn , the prisoner here at barr ; who stands indicted of a most horrid , and damnable treason . it is , the compassing and imagining the death of the king , to deprive him of his crown and royal government , and to alter and change the antient legal and fundamental government of this kingdome : which he has indeavoured to do and did intend to do , by printing a traiterous and seditious book , which in it self contains as many and as great treasons as it was possible either for the malice of the devil or the corrupt and treasonable thoughts of blood-thirsty men to invent ; it contains treasons against the king in his own royal person ; against his government , both ecclesiastical and civil ; full of treasons , ( as my lord chief justice was pleased to observe to you ) treasons against the queen , scandals against all manner of profession both in church and kingdom , of magistracy , and ministry : my lord , there are in this indictment thirteen paragraphs of that treasonable book recited , and each of them contains as many treasons , as there be lines in it ; nay ( my lord ) this treasonable book , it was intended to set a flame in this nation ; to raise and stir up rebellion in this kingdom against the king and his government . i shall observe to your lordship , the time when it was to be printed : it was in the beginning of october , your lordship knows , and i do not doubt but the jury have heard , that there was a great and dangerous design in this nation , set on foot by men of dangerous principles , to imbroyle this nation in a new warr , for the destruction of the king and his government ; it was executed in part , as farr as time and other circumstance would give way and leave to the undertakers ; ( the . of october last ) and my lord , it was proved upon the execution of a commission of oyer and terminer at york , that there was a council here in london , that sat to prepare matter for an universal rebellion all england over ; they sent their agitators into the north , west , all parts ; to give notice to their party to be ready to rise at a certain time ; several dayes were appointed , but it seems they could not be ready till that th . of octob. for the seditious books that were to lead on that design , and the libels and declarations could not be printed before that day ; and truely that had been printed and published too , if there had not been great diligence used by the kings agents and ministers , to take them just as they were preparing it . this book , gentlemen , doth contain a great deal of scandal upon the kings government , dispersing false and base rumours , to the prejudice of it . it is a rule in my lord cooke , that the dispersing of false and evil rumours against the king and government ; and libels upon justices of the kingdom ; they are the forerunners of rebellion . we shall now go the proof ; we shall prove that this prisoner at the bar , to print this book , had two presses in one roome ; that he himself did work at one of those presses , his servants at the other , by his command and in his presence : that he did compose part of it . print the sheets , correct the proofs , and revise them all in his own house , which were corrected and brought back into the work-house by himself , in so short a time that they could not be carryed abroad to correct , so that he must needs correct them himself : that this work was done in the night time , ( and it was proper , it was a deed of great darknesse and not fit indeed to see the light , and it was well it was strangled in the birth , or else for ought i know we might by this time have been wallowing in our blood ) we shall make it appear , that this man when mr. le-strange came to search his house , brake the forms , conveyed away as many of the sheets as he could from the presse to other places ; yet notwithstanding , gods providence was so great in the thing that he left there three or four sheets , which mr. le strange , then seized on , and many more within a little time after : and somewhat of the same matter , remained upon part of a form of i etter , which his hast would not give him leave to break ; when he was charged with it by mr. le strange , he confessed that he had printed some sheets of this seditious book , and being demanded by mr. le strange , what he thought of it ? he told him , he thought it was mettlesome stuff ; he had great joy in it , he confessed he had received money for printing of this ; and much other matter , taken upon examination before mr. secretary . we shall call our witnesses ; i should have observed to you , that this man would have it done with all the privacy that could be , and to be done forthwith ; there was great hast of it , about the beginning of october and the designe in the north , was upon the twelfth , so that it was clearly intended for that designe . several witnesses new sworn . joseph walker my lord , whereas my master is indicted for printing this book — lord hide your master ? who is your master ? walker he at the bar. l. hide . what say you of it ? walker i desire to see the book , [ it was shewed him . ] about the foure first pages of this treatise i composed . l. hide . who delivered it to you to compose ? walker . my master delivered the copy to me . l. hide . what doe you mean by composing ? walker . setting the letters . l. hide . well , and you set the letters to print according to the copy , and you had it of your master , had you ? walker . yes my lord ; but all this copy we did not print . [ part of the copy in manuscript being shewed him , he said , he composed by that copy . ] serj. morton . how much did you print ? walker . about three sheets . serj. morton . how many of those did your mr. compose ? walker . truly sir i cannot tell . l. hide . did he compose one ? walker . as to a whole one , i cannot say . mr. recorder . did he compose the title ? walker . here is no title . mr. recorder . no ? read the top . wal. a treatise of the execution , &c. [ he reads the title . ] recorder . did your master compose that ? walker . no , i did . l. hide . did your master give you that to compose ? walker . yes . serj. morton . who composed the second , third , and fourth sheet ? walker . i composed some of them , but to particularize i cannot . l. hide . who gave you what you did ? walker . my master . l. hide . can you turn to any part of that you did compose ? walker , i cannot tell that . l. hide . you composed you say foure pages ; there are eight in a sheet , who composed the other of the same sheet ? walker . i think my master did . l. hide . at the same time and in the same room with you ? walker . he wrought not in the same room . l. hide after you had stampt the sheet , who did peruse , and over-read it , to see if it were right ? walker . i carried them into the kitchen and laid them down upon the dresser by my master . l. hide . who compared them ? walker . i know not . l. hide . who brought them back to you ? walker my master brought them into the workhouse and laid them down . l. hide . was there any body in the house that might correct it ? walker . not that i saw . l. hide . when you had carried a sheet down , how long was it ere it was brought back again ? walker . about an hour , or an hour and a half . l. hide . was there any body in the house besides you and your master ? walker . there was my fellow apprentice , and the woman that keeps the house . l. hide . were there no strangers there ? walker . no my lord. mr. rec. were they printed in your masters house ? walker . yes . serj. morton . what room ? walker . in the press-room . serj. morton . did your master work at the presse about this work , any part of the time ? walker . yes , i saw him beat some sheets . l. hide . when you had printed one sheet , were there not some mistakes of the letters to be mended ? walker . yes , there were literals . l. hide . who made the amendment ? walker . upon my oath i cannot tell . l. hide . do you believe it to be your masters ? walker . i cannot tell that . l. hide . have you seen your master write heretofore ? walker . i have seen him write , but because i have heard of them that could counterfeit mens hands , i dare not swear it was his writing . l. hide . were the amendments that were brought back , like his hand ? walker . the letters were something like them , but i cannot swear positively , that they were his . l. hide . no , that you cannot , unless you saw him write them ; but was it like his hand ? walker . it was not much unlike his hand . mr. recorder . did not your master use to correct other works before this ? walker . yes . mr. recorder . then by the oath that you have taken , were not the corrections of this book like those of other corrections by his own hand ? walker . i know not that . mr. record . did any body correct books in your house but your master ? walker . no sir. serj. morton . did not you see your master with copie ? walker . yes he had copy before him . serj. morton . what time was this printed ? by night , or by day ? walker . in the night time . serj. morton . what directions did your master give you about printing it , did he direct any privacy ? walker . he was not much desirous of that . mr. record . at what time did you work about it ? walker . in the morning , from two till four or five serj. morton . pray sir thus ; were you in the house when mr. l'estrange came up ? walker . yes . serj. morton . were you at work then , or before ? walker . not when he was above , but immediately before , i was . mr. record . you are not bound to conceal treason , though you are bound to keep your masters secrets . serj. morton . what were you then at work upon ? walker . upon the signature d , the sheet d of this treatise . serj. morton . what did your master say when you told him mr. l'estrange was below ? walker . very few words ▪ i cannot be positive in them . seri . morton . to what purpose were they ? walker . hearing some body knock at the door , i went down into the composing room , and looked through the window , and saw people ▪ i imagined mr. l'estrange was there , and i told my master ▪ whereupon he said , he was und●ne , or to that effect . mr. record . did he not wish you to make hast in composing it . walker . no he did not . mr. record . how long had you been at work upon it ? how many dayes ? walker . i cannot tell justly . mr. record . you can gess . walker . about three or four dayes . mr. record . did not your master work in that time ? walker . he was in the work-house , and did set letters . mr. record . did he not likewise print ? walker . yes he did . serj. morton . did not you by his direction break the form when mr. l'estrange came to search ? walker . i brake one indeed . mr. serj. morton . what became of the other ? walker . my fellow prentice brake it . mr. serj. morton . by whose direction ? walker . i had no order for it , i brought it down and went to set it against a post , and it fell in peices . serj. morton . did you ask your master who delivered him this copy to print ? walker i did ask him two several times , but he made no answer . lord hide . did he not say , he would not tell you ▪ or that it was no matter to you ? nor nothing ? walker . yes he did afterwards say it was no matter to me . mr. record . did not your master nor fellow-apprentice tell you who brought the coppy ? walker . no. mr. record . and did not you know ? walker . no. serj. morton . was he not used to tell you the authors of books that you printed ? walker . the authors he did not ; but for whom they were printed he used to tell me : my lord i humbly beg pardon for what i did , i was his apprentice . lord hide . how many sheets did you print ? walker . two reams on a sheet , which makes . lord hide . the first page , being the title of it , your master brought to you to compose ; at the same time when you were composing one part , your master was composing another part of the same sheet in the next room , and part of it your master did print as well as compose , i think you said this . walker . yes . lord hide . likewise that the proofs were carried to him to overlook , and he brought them back within an hour or an hour and half after , and laid them down in the work-house ; and that you saw the hand of the amendments , but you cannot swear it was his , only you say , that it was not unlike it ; and that he had corrected former sheets that you had printed , and that the hand with which he corrected others , and this , was alike ; and that there was no stranger in the house to correct it . walker . not that i saw . lord hide . this is the substance of what you said . walker . yes . mr. record . did your other man , or you , ever correct ? walker . no. mr. record . did he use other correctors at any time ? walker . yes about some books . mr. record . what books . walker . hookers ecclesiastical policy . lord hide . you did rise to work at two of the clock in the morning about it , and your master said when you told him mr. l'estrange was below , that he was undone . walker . it was so my lord. mr. north mr. l'estrange , pray tell my lord and the jury of your taking this . mr. l'estrange . my lord i do remember that three or four daies or thereabouts before the twelfth of october last , i had notice of a press that had been at work for several nights in cloth fair , and imployed a person to watch the house ; who told me that they still gave over early in the morning , at day light , or soon after ; at length , intelligence was brought me in these very words , that now they were at it as hard as they could drive ( which was about four in the morning ) i arose , went to one of the kings messengers , and desired him to take a printer by the way , who did so , and i call'd up a constable , and so went to twyns house , where we heard them at work : i knocked a matter of a quarter of an hour , and they would not open the door , so that i was fain to send for a smith to force it ; but they perceiving that , opened the door and let us in ; there was a light when we came , but before the door was opened it was put out : when i was got up stairs , and a candle lighted , i found a form broken , ( that is , the letters dispersed ) only one corner of it standing intire , which was compared by a printer that was there , with a corner of a page newly printed , and appear'd to be the same ; this form was brought down out of the press room into the composing room . as yet we could not find the whole impression , but at last they were found thrown down a pair of back stairs , ( i remember ) they told me the impression was a thousand : i asked him where he had the copy ? he told me he knew not : it was brought to him by an unknown hand ; i told him he must give an account of it ; he told me at last he had it from calverts maid ; i ask'd him where the copy was , he told me he could not tell , ( when i speak of the copy , i mean the manuscript ) we searched near two hours and could not find it ; and at length went thence to the constables house in smithfield , and staid there a while with the prisoner . i asked him ( mr. twyn said i ) who corrected this sheet ? alas , said he , i have no skill in such things ; who revised it then ? who ●i●ted it for the press ? truely i had no body but my self ; i read it over ; what thought you upon reading it ? methoughts it was mettlefome stuffe , the man was a hot fiery man that wrote it , but he knew no hurt in it . serj. morton when you had taken these sheets , were they wet , or not ? mr. l'estrange . they were not only wet , but half of them were imperfect , printed only on one side ; missing the copy , i told him after he was carried to whitehall , ( mr twyn said i ) it may possibly do you some good yet to bring forth this copy , if you will be so ingenuous to produce the copy , and discover the author you may find mercy for your self , pray therefore get this copy , perchance i may make some use of it . after that , his servant , bazilla winsor brought out this part of the copy . [ producing a sheet of the manuscript in court. ] lord hide . joseph walker , was the whole copy of this book in the house at that time when you composed that which you did ? walker . i cannot tell ; i saw it but sheet by sheet . mr. recorder . did not you see the whole intire copy in your masters hand ? walker . no , but [ taking some part of the manuscript in his hand said ] this is the hand that i composed by . mr. record . mr. l'estrange where had you the entire copy . mr. l'estrange . it was only the copy of the last sheet that i took in the press . mr. record . who helped you to that ? mr. l'estrange . bazilla winsor , by direction of the prisoner as i conceive , for i told him if you can help 〈◊〉 to the copy , it may do you some good and soon after , part of it was brought me by her . i asked mr. twyn further , how did you dispose of those sheets which you had printed , those several heaps whether are they gone ? he told me he had delivered those sheets to mistriss calverts maid , at the rose in smithfield mr. record . you say he told you mistriss calverts maid received them of him , did you since speak with that maid . mr. l'estrange . i was long in searching twyns house and one of his apprentices made his escape , and probably gave notice of it , for the night i went to mistriss calverts house , she and the maid too were fled , i have since taken the mistress and she is now in custody , i have heard nothing of the maid since j. keeling . twyn owned to you that he had corrected some of the sheets , that he had read them , and sa d it was mettlesome stuff mr l'estrange . i did ask him in the house of the constable : who corrected this ? the corrector must certainly know what it was . said he , i have no skill in correcting . but when i speak of correcting , i mean who revised it , overlooked it for the press ; i read it over , sayes he . twyn . i never said such a word . mr. l'estrange . he spake this in the presence of two or three here present ; could you read over this book , said i , and not know that it was not fit to be printed ? i thought it was a hot fiery fellow , it was mettle or mettlesome stuff , some what to that effect . serj. morton . what did you hear him confess before sir hewy bennet ? mr. l'estrange . he owned the thing , that is , he acknowledged he had printed the sheet , i shewed there , and two other sheets of the same treatise . serj. morton . did he acknowledge he corrected them . mr. l'estrange . i know not whether before sir h. b. he did , or no. serj. morton . what know you about money received by him . mr. l'estrange . he said calverts maid paid him s. in part for that work . twyn . i said i had received money of calverts maid for work i had done , but named not that . mr. dickenson sworn . about the seventh day of october , it being wednesday as i remember , about five a clock we attended mr. l'estrange , my self and others ; we came to the house of the prisoner , in cloth-fair and ▪ upon the backside of his house we stood listening a good while , and heard presses a working ; upon that , i came to the fore part , by mr. l'estranges order , and knocked , but none would answer , i took the constables staff and knockt again , and none would answer yet ; after that , mr. l'estrange knockt near half an hour and no body coming , he at last sent for a smiths hammer to force it open . afterwards , they came down , and opened the door . then mr. l'estrange , and the printer ( mr. mabb ) went up stairs , i continued below with the constable , and the kings messenger to observe whether any went in or out . after which , some sheets fell down on the other side of the house , meeting with one of them , and perceiving they had discovered the sheets they inquired after , i read some part of it , and finding what it was , i went up and found the sheets thrown behind the door ; mr. twyn ( said i ) i wonder you would print such a thing as this , you could not choose but know that it was very dangerous to do any such thing ; he answered , that he did not consider what it was ; questionless said i , you could not but know it was very dangerous , for when you revised it , you must needs know the sence of it , and think it was a dangerous business , what did you think of it ? saies he i thought he was a good smart angry fellow , it was mettlesome stuff ; or to that purpose . this was the substance of our discourse : i did see some of the sheets printed on one side , and some on both sides , the form lay disordered , yet not so , but there was one corner of it yet remaining , and i having the sheet in my hand did compare them together ; and to the best of my remembrance i do remember these very words , execution of judgement , and lord have . l ▪ hide . who did he say revised the press ? dickenson . he seemed to confess that he had corrected it himself , for when i urged it to him that he could not chuse but know the matter of it by reading it ? truly saies he , i thought he was an angry smart fellow , it was good mettlesome stuff indeed . judge keeling . the question asked by my lord , is , whether he did confess he revised it , or whether you did collect it from his reply ? dickenson . truly by that answer i guessed he corrected it . recorder . did he confess that he read it ? dickenson . i put that question to him , and to the best of my remembrance he did not deny it . l. hide . to mr. l'estrange he confessed he read it over . tho. mabb sworn . my lord i was with mr. l'estrange in this mans house , and being there , going up , we found the press had been lately at work , there was at each press a sheet lay , i took them off the tinpin [ some of the jury understand that term ] they were just laid upon the points , printed on one side , i gave mr. l'estrange these two sheets , the same with these [ shewing two sheets ] some were perfect , others imperfect ; i could not find the forme a great while , i gave him the sheet to peruse ; and in the mean while i went down , and below i found the two formes , but broken , somewhat indeed was standing ; whereof i took part in my hand , and read in the letters ; mr. dickenson having the sheets , he heard what i read , and looking on the sheet found them agree . twyn . what were the words that you read ? mr. mabb . the words were execution and judgement , and lord have — there was a back pair of stairs out of his press room , partly between his house and his neighbours , and in the hurry they had thrown the sheets down there , part fell behind the door , and part at the bottom . when i questioned him how many was done ? he said five hundred , but i adjudged those i saw to be about seven hundred and fifty ; looking again over the door i espied the remainder of the sheets about two hundred and fifty more , and i brought them together , and then he owned there was one thousand . l. hide . what else do you know ? mr. mabb . at the constables house , i heard him use the words , that it was mettlesome stuff , and that no body corrected it but himself ; said i , i wonder you would offer to do it , you could not compose it but you must understand it . said he , it was my bad fortune to meddle with it ; said i , you lost a press but a little while since , i wonder you would do this ; he seemed to be sorrowful . serj. morton . he did confess he corrected it . mr. mabb . yes my lord. twyn . no my lord i did not . john wickham sworn . upon the seventh of octob. as i take it , about four a clock in the morning mr. l'estrange came to my house , being one of the kings messengers , and told me i must go immediately with him to cloth fair , and sent me to call one mr. mabb by the way . i met mr. l'estrange near mr. twyns house ▪ between five and six a clock , we had a constable and went and knocked at the door , they knocks at least half an hour before they got in ; i heard some papers tumbling down , and heard a ratling above before they went up , but i stood at the back door to secure any from running out that way : and at last , when they said there were some sheets thrown into the next house , i went and look'd and there were two or three hundred , and they were wet , newly come off the press , that 's all i can say . serj. morton . did you hear this man say that he had corrected it ? wickham . no , but i having him in custody at my house , i asked him about it , he said , it was a very bitter thing , that it was his unhappy fortune to meet with it . jury ▪ did he confess he printed it ? wickham ▪ not to me . serj ▪ morton . he said , it was a bitter thing , and that it was his unhappy fortune to meet with it ▪ make the best of tha● , compare that with the rest of the evidence . william story sworn . gentlemen of the jury , upon the seventh of october last early in the morning , i was sent for to mr. l'estrange into cloth fair , we went to the house of this twyn , after some time knocking , they went up stairs and brought down several papers , i know not what they were . i went into the next house with mr. wickham , and there we found two or three hundred sheets , and brought them to mr. l'estrange . i asked the prisoner at my house , whether he could not write or read ? he said , yes ; did not you use to read what you printed ? he said , yes ; did not you know treason when you read it ? it was a fury thing , i did not mind it much , but i should have got money by it ▪ mr. mabb . he owned he had but a very small price for the doing of it . mr. joseph williamson sworn . that which i can say , is , that i know this [ looking upon a paper ] to be my own hand writing , and to be the examination taken of this twyn . i took it , and he owned it after it was written . serj. morton what was the substance of it ? l. hide ▪ what did he confess before mr. secretary ? when he was examined . mr. williamson . he said that the copie of the book was brought to him by one evans , maid to mistris calvert ▪ that for the author , being asked if he knew him ? he said he did not , and that he had seen the copie of three sheets of the book ; that he had printed only two of those sheets , a thousand exemplaries of each . serj. keeling . did he confess that ? mr. williamson . yes ; and further , that he had delivered them to this evans at the sign of the rose in smithfield ; that he himself had corrected those sheets he had printed , and that he had read them after they were printed : that for his pains and printing of them , he had received fourty shillings in part , from this maid at the delivery of them , at the rose , that the maid carried away those exemplaries , from the rose , and that he parted with her at the door . serj. morton . i hope you observe gentlemen ; we have now done : we desire the prisoner may give his answer to it , and then we shall make our reply . l. hide . what say you ? you have heard the witnesses and what is laid to your charge . twyn . i did never read a line of it in my life . l. hide . that 's impossible , i 'le tell you : first your own man , who set part , swears you did both set and print part of this book your self ; you gave him the title to set , you composed one part of the book , whilst he was composing another part ; is it possible you conld compose , and not read a line of it ? he tells you further wheu the first sheet was printed , he brought it into the kitchin , and laid it down , knew not of any one in the house but your self ; about an hour , or an hour and a half after , you brought it back again corrected , laid it down , and the hand that corrected it , was not unlike your hand upon other corrections of books pray brother morton , let the jury have books , and mr. lee read the indictment , that they may see they agree . serj. morton . i observed to you , there were thirteen treasonable paragraphs , you shall find them marked out in the margent . l hide . you shall see there are treasons with a witnesse , see the very title . mr. lee. [ reads the title of the indictment ] a treatise of the execution of justice ; wherein is clearly proved , that the execution of judgment and justice , is as well the peoples as the magistrates duty , and if the magistrates pervert judgement , the people are bound by the law of god to execute judgement without them and upon them . l. hide . that you gave to your man to set . mr. lee reads , it is one of the scarlet sins of this nation , that the people suffer their rulers , &c. — the particular passages are too impious to be published , and indeed too foul to be repeated ; but in substance . those mentioned in the indictment , are as follows . first , the supream magistrate is made accomptable to the people . secondly , the people are rebelliously incited , to take the menage of the government into their own hands thirdly , they are animated to take up armes , not only against the person of his sacred majesty ; but likewise against the royal family . fourthly , they are stirred up to a [ revolt ] ( in that very term ) as an action honourable , and conscientious ; making publication in the next clause , of encouragement to any town , city , or county in the three nations to begin the work. fifthly , the people are laboured , not only to cast off their allegiance to the king ; but in direct terms to put his sacred majesty to death and to the purposes before mentioned tends the whole scope of the treatise . serj. morton . you may judge of the rest , by this ; we will not put you to any more expence of time , there hath been sufficient treason in that which you have read . l. hide now say what you will ; but i must tell you , in those particulars that have been compared , there is as much villanie and slander , as is possible for the devil , or man to invent : it is to destroy the king in his person ▪ to rob him of the love and affections of his people ; to destroy the whole family and all government , ecclesiastical and civil : and this read by your self , owned , and caused to be printed . twyn . except it was that sheet that mr. l'estrange read to me when i was taken , i never heard it before , nor read it . l. hide . your man swears that you did set and print part of it ; it 's impossible to compose and set , but you must read it ; nay you did examine and correct the sheets ; brought them up again ; mr. l'strange swears you confessed you read it over , it was mettlesome stuffe ; mr. dickenson sayes , you did not say you read it over , but he saying to you , it was impossible you should set it and not read it , you told him also it was mettlesome stuffe ; you could not judge it to be mettlesome stuffe , but you must read it ; there is mr. williamson sayes that you confessed before mr. secretary bennet , that you had seen three sheets , printed off two sheets , corrected those two sheets ; and after printed , and delivered them ; and that you had ● , in part of payment ; besides this , when mr. l'estrange came first , you were up , ( nay at two a clock in the morning ) when they came and knocked at the door , they heard presses going , you would make no answer till they call'd a smith with intent to force it open : when they came in , they found a form brought out of the printing ▪ room , and broken all but one corner : that taken up by a printer , and compared with the lines of the printed sheets , and found to agree . some of the sheets were printed on one side only , the rest perfected , you threw them down stairs , part into your neighbours house ; said , you were undone , when you understood mr. l' estrange was there . what needed all this , but that you knew what you were doing ? and did it purposely to do mischief ? twyn , i did never read , or hear a line of it , but when mr l' estrange read it when i was taken . judge keeling , was it printed at your house or no ? twyn , i know not but that it might ; not that i did it with my own hand . judge keeling , the papers were found wet wi●h you ; who was in your house ? twyn , my two servants . judge keeling , did any set them at work but your self ? did they work of their own heads ? twyn , i did use to set them at work , but i did not set them on that particular work . l. hide , have you any thing else to say ? god forbid but you should be heard , but the jury will not easily believe such denialls against so much evidence . judge keeling , tell us to whom you carried this copy to be corrected ? twyn , i know not who corrected it . l. hide , if you have any thing to say , speak it , god forbid but you should have a full hearing , say what you will ? twyn , i say i did not read it , nor heard it , till mr. l'estrange read it . l. hide . have you any thing else ? twyn . it 's possible i may upon consideration . l. hide . we cannot spend all the day , i must let the jury know they are not to take your testimony . serj. morton i am of councel for the king ; i shall reply if he will say no more . judge keeling ▪ you have heard your charge , this is your time to make your answer ; if you do not speak now , you must not speak after ; therefore if you have any thing to speak in your justification , or witnesses to call , now is your time . l. hide . let me give you this caution , we cannot spend time in vain , we have other business before us , and it grows late , the best councel i can give you is this ; you said at first , that you desired to be tryed in the presence of god ; you are here in the presence of almighty god , and i would to god you would have so much care of your self , and do so much right to your self , to declare the truth , that there may be means of mercy to you . the best you can now do toward amends for this wickednesse you have done , is by discovering the authour of this villainous book ; if not , you must not expect , and indeed god forbid that there should be any mercy towards you ▪ twyn . i never knew the author of it , nor who it was , nor whence it came , but as i told you . l. hide . then we must not trouble our selves ; did you never see the hand before , with which this copy was written ? twyn . no. l. hide . i am very confident you would not then have been so mad , as to have taken such a copy ; a copy fraught with such abominable treason , and lies ; abusing in the first place , the late king that is dead who was , i 'le be bound to say it , as virtuous , religious , pious ▪ mercifull , and just a prince as ever reigned , and was as villainously and barbarously used by his rebellious subjects ; nay , you have not rested here , but have fallen upon this king , who has been gentle and mercifull , beyond all president ; since ▪ he came to the crown , he has spared those that had forfeited their lives , and all they had ; and he has endeavoured to oblige all the rest of his people by mildnesse and clemency : and after all this for you to publish so horrid a book ; you can never make amends , god forgive you for it . twyn . i never knew what was in it . l. hide . you of the jury , i will say only this , that in point of law , in the first place , there is no doubt in the world by the law of the land , the publishing such a book as this , is as high a treason as can be committed ; by this he has indeavoured to take away the life of the king , and destroy the whol family ; and so consequently to deliver us up into the hands of forreigners and strangers ; it is a great blessing that we have the royal line amongst us . but i say there is no question ( and my brothers will declare the same if you doubt it ) that this book is as fully treason by the old statute ; as much the compassing and indeavouring the death of the king , as possible ; and he rests not there , but he incites the people to rebellion , to dethrone him , to raise war ; and the publishing of this book is all one and the same , as if he had raised an army to do this ; the proofe is , that he set part , printed part , and corrected it , by his own confession , read it over , it was mettlesome stuffe ; confessed how many sheets he printed , the reward and recompence you took notice of it ; and i presume no man among you can doubt but the vvitnesses have spoken true , and for his answer , you have nothing but his bare denyal , and so we shall leave it to you. set simon dover to the bar. dover . my lord , i pray time till munday morning , i have sent away the copy of my indictment . l. hide . the sessions will be done to night ; mr. recorder and the rest are to go away on munday , and therefore we must end to night ▪ dover . i beseech your lordship i may have time till night . l. hide . men clamour and say they are hardly used , their . tryals being put off ; are you content to lye in goal till the next sessions ? dover . no my lord , i have had enough of that , we are willing now to have it tryed . l. hide . you have had a kindness done you that it i● not laid treason , and therefore go on to your tryal ; but because you shall not say you are surprized , if you will not go on now , you must lye in the goal till the next sessions , we cannot bail you . dover . my lord , the indictment is full of law , and i understand not the formalities of it , i desire but till four a clock . l. hide . we must do it before we go to dinner , or not at all , for there is judgement to be given to the goal , and all of us judges are commanded by the king to attend him to night . dover . i am not able to plead to it . l. hide . then because you shall not say , you had not all the right imaginable , we will dispatch the rest of the goal to night , and adjourn the sessions till munday morning , and you shall then have a fair tryal by the help of god ; you and your company ; nathan brookes , and thomas brewster , are you all desirous to be tryed on munday morning ? all three , yes . l. hide . because you shall not want advice , or any thing else , you shall have all the liberty you will desire , to send for persons , but you must be prisoners till then . all three , we humbly thank you . then the jury went out , and after about half an hours consultation , they returned to the court and took their places . cl. are you all agreed of your verdict ? jury ▪ yes . cl. who shall say for you ? jury . the foreman . cl. set john twyn to the bar , look upon him my masters ; how say you , is he guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of newgate . look to him keeper . cl. hearken to your verdict as the court hath recorded it ; you say that john twyn is guilty of the high treason whereof he stood indicted , and that at the time of committing the said treason , or any time since , he had no goods , chattles , lands nor tenements to your knowledge , and so you say all . jury . yes . cl. john twyn , thou hast been arraigned for high treason and thereunto hast pleaded not guilty , and for thy tryal hast put thy self upon god and the country , and the country hath found thee guilty ; what canst thou now say for thy self , why the court should not proceed to judgement , and thereupon award execution of death against thee according to the law ? twyn . i humbly beg mercy ; i am a poor man , and have three small children , i never read a word of it . l. hide . i 'le tell you what you shall do ; ask mercy of them that can give it ; that is of god and the king. twyn . i humbly beseech you to intercede with his majesty for mercy . cl. of newgate . tye him up executioner . cryer . o yes , my lords the kings justices command all manmer of persons to keep silence while judgement is in giving , upon pain of imprisonment . l. hide . john twyn ( and john ●ursmore , one convicted for clipping of money : ) iam heartily sorry that your carriages and grievous offences should draw me to give that judgement upon you that i must . it is the law pronounces it , god knows it is full sore against my inclination to do it , i will not trouble my self or you with repeating what you have done , but only this in the general , john twyn , for you ; yours is the most grievous and highest treason , and the most complicated of all wickedness that ever i knew ; for you have as much as possibly lay in you , so reproached and reviled the king , the dead king , and his posterity , on purpose to endeavour to root them out from off the face of the earth ▪ i speak it from my soul , i think we have the greatest happiness of the world , in enjoying what we do under so gracious and good a king : yet you in the rancour of your heart thus to abuse him ! i will be so charitable to think you are misled . there 's nothing that pretends to religion that will avow or justifie the killing of kings , but the jesuit on the one side , and the sectary on the other ; indeed it is a desperate and dangerous doctrine , fomented by divers of your temper , and it 's high time some be made examples for it . i shall not spend my time in discourse to you to prepare you for death ; i see a grave person whose office it is , and i leave it to him . do not think of any time here ▪ make your peace with god , which must be done by confession , and by the discovery of those that are guilty of the same crime with you . god have mercy upon you ; and if you so do he will have mercy upon you . but forasmuch as you john twyn have been indicted of high treason , you have put your self upon god and the country , to try you ; and the country have found you guilty , therefore the judgement of the court is , and the court doth award . that you be led back to the place from whence you came , and from thence to be drawn upon an hurdle to the place of execution , and there you shall be hanged by the neck , and being alive shall be cut down , and your privy members shall be cutoff , your entrails shall be taken out of your body , and you living , the same to be burnt before your eyes : your head to be cut off , your body to be divided into four quarters , and your head and quarters to be disposed of at the pleasure of the kings majesty . and the lord have mercy upon your soul . twyn ▪ i most humbly befeeth your lordship to remember my condition , and intercede for me . l. hide . i would not intercede for my own father in this case , if he were alive . munday . feb. ¼ . te court proclaimed . cl. set simon dover , thomas brewster and nathan brooks to the bar , look to your challenge . the same jury sworn anew . cl. set tho. brewster to the bar , and the rest set by ; you of the jury look upon the prisoner : you shall understand that he stands indicted in london by the name of thomas brewster , &c. [ and here he reads the indictment ] for causing to be printed and selling a book called , the speeches , &c. vpon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto hath pleaded not guilty , and for his , &c. your charge is to enquire whether he be guilty of this sedition and offence or not guilty if you find him , &c. mr. north. my it please your lordship and you gentlemen of the jury , t. b. stands here indicted of a foul misdemeanor ; it is for causing to be printed , publishing and uttering a seditious , scandalous and malicious book ; the indictment sets forth , that he not having , &c. [ here mr. north opens the indictment ] and to this indictment he hath pleaded not guilty ; if there be sufficient proof of the charge , you are to find him guilty of the matter contained in it . thomas creek , george thresher , thomas loft and peter bodvel sworn . mr. north. tho. creek , tell my lord and the jury what you know concerning brewsters , and your printing of a book called the speeches , &c. and his uttering and publishing of it . creek i shall sir ; there is a mistake in the time , for it was before christmas , that mr. brewster , mr. calvert , and mr. chapman did come to me at the cock in little-brittain , and there they had some copie of the beginning of the speeches of the men that suffered , that were the kings judges , and they spake to me to print it ; and i did print part of the book , i cannot tell you how much , without i had the book , and then i can tell you how much i did print , [ the book being shewed him ] if this be my printing ; i suppose it was done afterwards , another impression , and i must not own it in that , [ be was shewed one of another impression ] my lord thus far i own , the printers that are of the jury will judge , [ pointing to the page ] this is my letter , and here i ended . l. hide what folio is that you ended at ? creek . you shall see , it is . mr. north. by whose order did you print that ? creek . they all gave me order together . l. hide . they all ? name them . creek . mr. calvert , brewster and chapman . mr north did they charge you to do it privately ? creek . with as much privacy and expedition as i could ? mr. north. when you had printed them , what did you do with them ? creek . i disposed of them by their order mr. north. did you print but one impression ? or more ? creek yes my lord , i did print part of ● second impression . mr. north. that we use as evidence , that he had uttered the first , because he went upon a second : how many did you print at first ? creek . to my best remembrance , the first impression was . l. hide . these three employed you to print this book , and you printed to the . folio . creek . yes . l. hide . and who printed the other part ? creek i cannot say positively . l. hide . these three did afterwards direct you to give out the sheets to such and such persons , book-binders to stitch up , and dispose . creek . yes . l. hide . the first was three thousand you say , what number did they take ? creek . they had all ; they sent for them of me as fast as i did them . j. keeling . who did you send the proofs to ? creek they were sent for to my house . j. keeling . sometimes by calvert , sometimes his man , sometimes his maid , sometimes by brewster . l. hide . do not you know who began where you left off ? creek . i am not able positively to say , i do believe , and i have heard , and spoken with them that said mr. dover did , but i cannot positively say it . l. hide . you were not by to see it done ? creek no. l. hide . what grounds have you to believe that dover printed the rest ? creek grounds ; truly it is so long ago , to swear positively i cannot . l. hide . it is but three years ago . creek . to the best of my remembrance , mr. dover in the time of printing of it , did meet me , and converse with me about it , but to express time or place , i cannot . l. hide . did you and he agree that he should print the other part ? creek no my lord ; i had nothing to do to agree it with him . l. hide . did he declare to you that he printed the other ? creek . to the best of my memory he told me he printed some sheets . mr. north. who changed sheets with you ? creek . some sheets were changed at mr. dovers . j. keeling . who paid for the printing ? creek . mr. brewster paid me some , and some mr. calvert paid me . l. hide . if you desire to ask him any questions you may . browster . by and by i shall , my lord. dover . i desire he may tarry till i come to my tryal . serj. morton . don't doubt it . mr. north. george thresher , speak your knowledge to my lord and the jury , whether brewster did not bring you the book called the the speeches , &c. to be stiched , and what you did with them , tell the manner of it . thresher . may it please you my lord and the honourable bench , it is thus ; this book it seems was printed , mr. brewer came to my house to know whether i could fold them and stitch them in blew paper ; that night i went to several printers , mr. dover was one of them ; we had several sheets from thence ( i did not see them printed ) i carried them home , and went about the working them that night . j. keeling . how many books were delivered to you ? thresher . first and last , about . j. keeling . who delivered them to you ? thresher . some were brought to my house . j. keeling . by whose direction . thresher mr. brewster's . j. keeling . did you deliver them to any body ? thresher . yes , to nathan brookes , ready stiched . j. keeling . who paid you for them ? thresher mr. brewster , for them he had , and brookes for them he had . mr. north. thomas loft , tell your knowledge in this businesse . thomas loft . may it please you , all that i can say is this ; there was to the number of about , or near upon a thousand , as i take it , folded and stiched in my masters house , one mr. perry , i was then his apprentice ; they were sent in as i judge by mr. brewster's order , but i cannot positively say it , my mr. appointed us to do them ; i saw mr. brewster there sometimes , but i cannot positively say that mr. brewster paid for the doing of them . mr. north. did not your mr. presse the dispatch ? loft . my mr. did so , but i know not whether they conversed to that purpose . mr. north. vvho fetched them away ? loft . his then apprentice did fetch some of them from our house mr. north. peter bodvell , tell my lord , and the jury what you know . bodvell . i did carry some three years agoe some bundles of books from mr. creekes house , and i think they were the bundles of the speeches of the kings judges . l. hide . from whence had you them ? bodvell . from mr. creekes . mr. north. what did you do with them ? were they sold ? bodvell i did see some of them sold in the shop . mr. north vvhosold them ? bodvell . my self , and my mistris sometimes , l. hide vvere they brought to the shop to sell by his privity ? bodvell . i do believe he knew of them . l. hide . by the oath you have taken , did he send you for them to the printers ? bodvell . he , or my mistris did . l. hide . has he been in the shop when they have been sold ? bodvell . i cannot truly tell , it 's three years agoe . j. tirrel . to whom did you pay the money that you receied for them ? bodvell . we put it in the box. j. keeling . do not book-sellers keep account ▪ what books they sell , and set down the money ? bodvel . not for pamphlets . mr. north. did he not send you to the book-binders for them when they were stitched ? bodvell it was by his or my mistris's order . j. keeling . what was your book ▪ binder's name ? bodvell . perry . j. keeling where was this book kept ? publickly , as other books , or in other roomes ? bodvell . in the shop my lord. j. keeling were they publickly to view as other books ? bodvell . not so publick as other books , but publick enough , mr. l' estrange knows . l. hide . i know you use to let your titles of a new book lie open upon your stalls , did you lay these open ? bodvell . no my lord , they did not do so . l. hide . who was the cause they did not , did your master direct the privacy ? bodvell . i think he did , we had some direction to that end . l. hide . not to lay them open upon the stall . bodvell . no. l. hide . give the jury some books , and read the indictment , let them be compared . clerk. reads the indictment , first the title ; the speeches and prayers of some of the late kings judges , ( viz ▪ ) major generall harrison ▪ october . mr. john carey , october . mr. justice cooke mr. hugh peters , october . mr. thomas scot. mr. gregory clement col. adrian scroope . col. john jones ▪ october . col. daniell axtell , and col. francis hacker , october . the times of their deaths , together with several occasional speeches , and passages in their imprisonment , till they came to the place of execution ; faithfully , and impartially collected for further satisfaction . [ mr. cooke's letter to a friend . ] folio . and so i d●scend to the cause , for which i am in bonds which is as good as ever it was , and i believe there is not a saint that hath ingaged with us , but will wish at the last day that he had sealed to the truth of it with his blood , if thereupon called ; for i am satisfied , that it is the most noble and glorious cause that has been agitated for god and christ since the apostolical times , being for truth , holiness , and righteousness , for our liberties , as men ▪ and as christians for removing all yoa●s and oppressions . ( and . ) it is such a cause , that the martyrs would come again from heaven to suffer for it if they might : i look upon it as the most high act of justice that our story can parallel , ; &c. [ not to trouble the reader with all the particulars mentioned in the indictment ; since the rest are but more of the same in other words . ] l. hide . what say you to this book ? brewster . i desire to ask mr. creek a few questions ; mr. creek , how much of that in the indictment did you print ? creek . the jury may see if they please . l. hide . truly if he saies true , he saies he printed no part of that with which you are charged , but the title page , he left off at folio . your charge is the title , and beginning at fol. . brewster . so that you see he printed nothing for me that is in the indictment . j. keeling . did you print the title ? creeke . yes my lord. l. hide . and you printed the rest , by his , calverts , and chapmans directions . creeke . they delivered me the copy together to print . l. hide . if you have any thing to say , speak to the court , the jury will hear you . mr ▪ north. pray my lord , give me leave to aske creeke one question ? there were two impressions printed , did not you print more in one , then in the other ? creeke i am upon my oath , to the best of my remembrance i printed the same that i did before , for i had some of it standing , and so i had the same sheets again . mr. north. had you no more ? creeke . no , i had rather lesse . brewster . that 's usuall , he that prints the first , doth print the same of the second . l. hide . he saies he did so ; what have you to say to the charge ? brewster . i conceive that part that i ordered the printing of , is not included in the indictment . l. hide . yes every part ; he sayes in both impressions he printed to the . folio ; and all the rest was printed by your direction . creeke . no my lord , i printed to the fol. by his direction , the rest was printed else where . j. keeling . your indictment was this , for causing to be printed this book , called the prayers , &c. and for selling and uttering of it ; for the evidence , that you caused it to be printed , he swears you directed some , and it is not likely you would print half , and let the other half alone ; we leave that to the jury , for your uttering that anon . l. hide . there are these two particular charges in the indictment , that you must answer ; the first , is your causing it to be printed ; and it is not essential , or of necessity that every particular that is in the indictment be proved to be done by you ; you caused this book to be printed , with such a title : that he swears he did for you , then let the jury , or any man living judge whether you did direct the book to be wholly perfected , or by halfs : the second charge is , that you vttered them : you delivered five hundred of these to be stitched up , and disposed of them , so that you are in effect both printer and publisher of the whole book . brewster he speaks of one part that i ordered , there is no more proof , and that was but to the . page ; he speaks also of some body else that was present with me ; and where they had the rest of the copy printed , he tells you he knows not . l. hide . have you any more to say ? brewster yes my lord , though he saies , i caused that part to be printed , yet he doth not say , i did it maliciously , or w th any design against the government . l. hide . the thing speaks it self brewster . book-sellers do not use to read what they sell . l. hide you have forgot what he swore ; you brought the proof . brewster . he did not swear that , he saies mr. calvert's man , and sometimes others . l. hide ask him again . creeke . i did declare , that the proofs were sent for , and carried away and read , sometimes by mr. calvert's man , and others , and sometimes by his servants , not by himself , they were wrapt up and sent . l. hide . for a man to pretend he did not know , when he being master , sends for the proofes by his servant ; for any man to suppose this is not the masters act ; ( nay and directing it to be done privately , ) you shall never find a man guilty ; they were sold in his shop . brewster . the grand part of the indictment lies that it was done maliciously , and seditiously , and then it saies knowingly ; though it be granted i did do it , and sell it , yet it does not follow that i did it maliciously , and seditiously ; i did it in my trade , we do not use to read what we put to print or sell ; i say my lord , selling of books is our trade , and for the bare exercising of it , knowing nothing of evil in it , it came out in a time too , when there were no licensers , or appointed rules ; so that what ever was done we are not accountable for , for we read very seldome more than the title ; that some of the jury knows , so that i hope i cannot be said to do it maliciously or knowingly . i can give testimony i am no person given to sedition , but have been ready to appear upon all occasions against it . l. hide . have you any more ? if you have , say it . brewster . my lord , they are the sayings of dying men , commonly printed without opposition . l. hide . never . brewster . i can instance in many , the bookseller only minds the getting of a penny ; that declares to the world , that as they lived such desperate lives , so they died ; so that it might shew to the world , the justice in their punishment , and so i think it a benefit , far from sedition ; it was done so long ago too , it was not done in private , it went commonly up and down the streets , almost as common as a diurnal : it 's three years and a quarter ago , or thereabouts . j. tirrel . you speak of your behaviour ▪ have you any testimony here ? brewster . i do expect some neighbours ; maj. gen. brown knows me , capt. sheldon , capt. colchester , and others ; i can give a very good account as to my behaviour ever since . l. hide . say what you will , and call your witnesses , and make as much speed as you can . j. keeling . there is another indictment against you , and while that is trying your neighbours may come . brewster . my lord i shall desist for the present . serj. morton may it please your lordship and you gentlemen of the jury ; i am of council for the king against tho brewster , bookseller ; that stands here indicted for that he , contrary to the duty of his allegiance which he owes to our soveraign lord the king , he did cause maliciously a seditious and scandalous book to be printed ; wherein there are divers scandalous clauses contained that are in disparagement of the kings royal prerogative , and against his government , crown and dignitie ; and likewise that he has sold and uttered the same books in contempt of his majesties laws . this is the effect of the indictment ; it has been proved to you by four witnesses , that for which he stands indicted : first , that he did cause part of the book to be printed ; that 's clearly proved by creek ; likewise , that he has sold , and uttered those books in his shop ; nay he confesses that he did , and saies they were sold openly , as a diurnal , and therefore he thinks it was lawful for him to do it ; he has gone about to make a defence of this his seditious behaviour ; he tells you he did not print all the book ; it is not said that he printed such and such a letter of the book , but that he caused such a book to be printed ; and it is to be presumed , if he caused one part , he would cause the other , or otherwise it would be a book of maimed sence and imperfect . gentlemen , for the uttering , and selling of them , that himself confesses ; you have heard the excuses he hath made , whether you will not find him guilty of this crime , that i must leave to you , and to the direction of the court. l. hide . you of the jury , you see the indictment is for causing a libellous and seditious book to be printed , under such a title , that is , the speeches and prayers , &c. it is for causing this , seditiously , factiously and wickedly to be printed : and for selling and publishing it abroad to the kings people : for the matter of evidence , you have heard it ; i will not repeat the particulars to you , only something to what he has said , that you may not be misled . first , he saies it does not appear , that he did it maliciously or knowingly , there are some things that you that are of the jury are not to expect evidence for , which it is impossible to know but by the act it self : malice is conceived in the heart ; no man knows it unless he declares it . as in murder ; i have malice to a man , no man knows it ; i meet this man , and kill him ; the law calls this malice . if a man speak scandalous words against a man in his calling , or trade , he laies his action , malice , though he cannot prove it but by the words themselves . if i say a printer , or stationer is an ignorant person , has no skill in his trade , i would not have any man to deal with him , he understands not how to set letters , or the like : here is nothing of malice at all appears , yet if you bring your action , you must lay it , maliciously , it is the destroying your trade , and you will have damages . i instance in this particular , that you may see there is malice , supposed to a particular private person in that slander , much more to the king , and the state. the thing it self , in causing a book to be printed , that is so full of scandals and lies , to inveigle , misguide , and deceive the people , this is in construction of the law , malice ; though no malice appear further . the next is this ; factiously , seditiously , knowingly ; this carries sedition , as well as malice . such a barbarous transcendent wretch , that murdered his prince , without the least colour of justice , to declare that he rejoyced in his bonds , and that the martyrs would willingly come from heaven to suffer for it : horrid blasphemy ! all the saints that ingaged in it , to wish that they had sealed it with their blood ! what can you have more to incourage and incite the people to the killing of kings , and murdering their lawful prince ! this they publish , and say it was spoken publickly , let it be upon his own soul that did it ; for in case he did it , no man knew it but those that heard it : but to publish it all over england , ( , of the first impression , and a second ) this is to fill all the kings subjects with the justification of that horrid murther ; i will be bold to say , not so horrid a villany has been done upon the face of the earth , since the crucifying of our saviour . to print , and publish this , is sedition . the next thing is your trade . i have a calling to use , and i may justifie the using of it , so long as i use it lawfully ; but that must not justifie me in all manner of wickedness against the king , and state. as if a lawyer ( i will put it in my own coat ) pleads a mans cause , and against the king ; this is justifiable , he ought to plead for his client , but he must plead as becomes him ; if a lawyer in defence of his client will speak sedition , do you think he is free from being punished : so of a printer ; if a printer prints seditious and factious books , he must look to himself ; that 's no part of his calling , to poison the kings people ; so though printing of a book be lawful , he must use it as the law appoints him , and not to incite the people to faction : writing of letters , you know it is common and lawful , but if i write treasonable letters , give notice to rise , do such and such unlawful acts , i am to be punished for these letters : a printer he is a publick agent , he is to do what he is able to answer , or else he must take what follows . he saies there was no act against bim ; it is true , you see he is not indicted upon the statute , but at the common law , for an offence in the nature of a libel . if i were a printer and would compile a pamphlet against a man , though not in authority , and disparage him , this is the publishing of a libel ; and an offence for which he ought to be indicted , and punished by the common law , and he that prints that libel against me as a publick person , or against me as sir robert hide ; that printer , and he that sets him at work must answer it , much more when against the king , and the state. another thing is this , he talks to you of dying mens words ; if men will be so vile to be as wicked at their deaths , as they had been in their lives ; put the case of that man on saturday , convicted for printing a horrible villainous thing , if he will be so unchristian to himself , as to justifie this at his death , or to speak as bad as he had caused to be printed , is that a justification to publish them , because they are the words of a dying man ! god forbid ; a robber declares at the gallows , it is for a noble cause , for taking a purse upon the high-way , that it is an unjust law to condemn to death for such crimes : shall any man publish this in print , and not be lyable to be punished for it ? if any that were tryed here upon saturday , shall vrlifie the lord mayor , or any of the bench , traduce them for doing of justice , shall this go unpunished , if a man take it up and print it ? this i speak to let you see , this is without colour of law ; he pretended he did it not knowingly ; i will not repeat the evidence , he sent for them , had them stitched , caused them to be kept privately , ( not upon the stall ) and observe , he tells you it was done long agoe ; it is but three years agoe , that they were as publickly sold as diarnals , he sayes : i shall repeat no more , i know you are men of understanding , and of obedience to your king ; it is high time to take notice of this dispersing of pamphlets , if therefore you do believe that he did cause it to be printed , or published it , or both , he is guilty of the misdemeanour ●aid in the indictment ; ( and he hath a great kindness in that it is not made capital ) if you do believe , that he did either cause it to be printed , or published , that 's enough to find him guilty of this indictment . cl. hearken to the other indictment , he stands indicted in london , &c. and this is for causing to be printed a certain book , called the phoenix , &c. publishing the same , [ the indictment was wholly read ] to this indictment he hath pleaded , not guilty ; so your issue is to inquire whether he be guilty of this offence or not guilty . mr. north , [ opened the indictment in manner as before . ] to this he hath pleaded not guilty , if the charge of the indictment be sufficiently proved , you are to find him guilty . serj. morton , may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , here is another bill of indictment preferred against tho. brewster , it is that contrary to the duty of his allegiance to his soveraign lord the king , and purposely to incite the people to sedition , and to withdraw them from their natural allegiance to the king , he hath caused to be imprinted , maliciously , falsly , and scandalously , a certain scandalous book entituled , the phoenix , &c. and this he hath done to disturb the peace of the kingdom , and to withdraw the people from their allegiance , and to the scandal of his majesty and government , he hath caused this book to be printed , uttered , and sold , and this we take to be a great offence against the king , his crown , and dignity . gentlemen , the dispersing of seditious books is of great danger to the kingdom ; false rumours they are the main incentives that stir up the people to sedition and rebellion , that raise discontentments among the people , and then presently they are up in arms. dispersing seditious books is very near a kin to raising of tumults , they are as like as brother and sister ; raising of tumults is the more masculine , and printing and dispersing seditious books , is the feminine part of every rebellion . but we shall produce our witnesses ; we shall prove that this tho. brewster caused this book to be printed , that when it was printed , he did receive three hundred ; that these he caused to be stiched up ; that he uttered , and sold them , part in his own shop , and part elsewhere . it being an offence of that great and dangerous consequence , which tends to the disturbance of the peace of the kingdom : i hope you will take it into your serious consideration , and if the matter stand proved against him , you will give him his due demerit . creek , thresher , loft , and bodvel sworn again . mr , north. creek , tell my lord and the jury what you know of the printing of the book called the phoenix . creek . my lord , it was in may , that mr. calvert , brewster , and chapman brought that book to me to print . l. ch. ju. hide . what book ? name it . creek . the phoenix , &c. it was printed for them three . all that i can say , is , that mr. brewsters part was delivered to me by his direction . l. ch. ju. hide . who paid you for printing of it ? creek . mr. brewster paid for his part . j. keeling . how many was his part ? creek . his part of , that was , and odd . l. ch. ju. hide . these three men joyn'd to bear each man his share ? creek . yes , every man was to have his share . j. keeling . did he wish you to do it with privacy ? creek . yes , with expedition and privacy . brewster . was the copy written , or printed ? creek . it was all printed formerly , some in quarto , some in octavo , and might have been bought single in any place almost . l. ch. ju. hide . what do you mean by all printed formerly ? creek . my lord , they were in several parcels printed , there was mr. calamy's sermon , and mr. douglas his sermon , and the rest . j. keeling . how long agoe was it since they were brought to you to print ? creek . it was in may , three years . brewster . did i order you how you should print them , or mr. calvert ? did not you hear him say , that they had staid two hours for me at an ale-house to be his partner ? creek . i did hear him say so . j. keeling . what made you so loath to be their partner , were they two hours perswading of you ? creek . no , they waited two hours for him to be their partner . serj. morton . thresher , did brewster deliver any of those books ●o you to stich up ! thresher . yes , and please you my lord , and i had them by mr. brewsters order to ●old . serj. morton . how many ? thresher . to the number of . or . mr. north. did he not enjoyn you privaey ? thresher . yes , i think he did . j. keeling . vvhen they were bound , had you a note to deliver those books safely to any ▪ thresher . yes , from his own hand ▪ he desired me to go and give them to such and such persons , booksellers : said i , i shall hardly remember them ▪ he thereupon gave me a note of their names to whom i should deliver them ; i judge they were to be trusted more then others . serj. morton . did you deliver them accordingly ? thresher . yes , i did . l. ch. j. hide . how many did you deliver in that manner ? thresher . two dozen and more . j. keeling . if you will ask him any questions , do . brewster . did i give you any order to deliver them to any particular booksellers ? thresher . yes , you did , i believe mr. lestrange , and mr. williams ( one of the jury ) can remember i shewed them the paper you wrote to that purpose . mr. williams . i did see the note . brewster . i do not remember i gave you any order , they were all common things before . j ▪ keeling . you may ask him what questions you will. brewster . i shall ask him no more . mr. north. peter bodvel , speak what you know concerning the selling or 〈◊〉 of the book called the phenix , &c. bodvel . i never knew of the printing of them , i never knew my master sell any of them , nor heard him give order for selling of them . j. keeling . did you sell any of them for him ? bodvel . i think i did sell some . serj. morton . vvere they in the shop to be sold ? bodvel . yes , they were . l. ch. j. hide . were they in the shop publickly , with the title page lying open upon the stall as other books do , when they are newly out ▪ bodvel . we seldom did so with bound books . j. keeling . where were the books found when they were seized ? bodvel . i think they were in some of the upper rooms . j. keeling . where were they found by the oath you have taken ? bodvel . that mr. lestrange can tell better then i , i did not see him find any of them . l. ch. ju. hide . by the oath you have taken , where was the place whence you were to fetch them , when you were to sell them ? bodvel . in the hall , the room over the shop . l. ch. ju. hide . were they put up privately ? bodvel . they were so . j. keeling . what private place was that ? bodvel . it was a hole in the wall . j. tirrel . by whose direction were they said there ? bodvel . i know not , whether by his , or my mistris . j. keeling . were not some found under the bed ? bodvel . i heard that mr. le●●r●nge found some of the titles under the bed . serj. mor. i think it is enough , what say you to it friend ? l. ch. ju. hide . observe this , and answer it , it appears that you and two more , ( calvert and chapman ) did agree with creek for printing this book , ( several parcels drawn into one volumn ) and you were to bear each of you a third part , and to have a third part of the books ; he swears you did both pay your part , and had your part of the books . these books were printed before , & so they were common enough , and therefore you must needs know what was in them . the third full part was brought to you , and delivered by your appointment ; you gave a note how they should be disposed of ; and you owned them not in publick . ( your own soul told you they were not to be justified ) two dozen were delivered privately to particular persons , by your direction ; lay these things together , and now answer them ; for the indictment is that you caused such a book to be printed and published . brewster . in the first place , the evidence does say , that mr. calvert did acknowledge when he gave him the copy to print , that he staid so long for me in order to be their partner , he that was the collector of it together : they were all printed before , and printed by license ; for the books i never read them ; we seldome read the books we sell , being they were before printed , and with license sold single , ( as the gentlemen of the jury know ) i thought there was no crime to print them all together : it was done in an interval when there were no licensers , we knew not where to go ; what has been printed formerly , we took it for granted it might be reprinted , till this late act for printing ; and this was done before this act. j. keeling . have you any more to say ? brewster . no my lord , i shall leave it to the jury , but my lord , here are now some neighbours to testifie that i am no such person as the indictment sets forth , that i did maliciously , and seditiously , do such and such things . l. ch. ju. hide . we will hear them , though i 'le tell you it will not much matter ; the law sayes it is malice . capt. sheldon sworn . my lord , all that i can say , is , he was ready at beat of drum upon all occasions , what he has been guilty of by printing or otherwise , i am a stranger to that , i know he was of civil behaviour and deportment amongst his neighbours . j. keeling . it is very ill that the king hath such trained souldiers in the band. capt. hanson , and others , offered to like purpose . l. ch. ju. hide . if you have a thousand to this purpose only , what signifies it ? j. keeling . are you his captain ? capt. sheldon . no my lord , capt. bradshaw . l. ch. ju. hide . he should be casheir'd the band ; not but that he should be charged with armes . i 'le tell you , do not mistake your self , the testimony of your civil behaviour , going to church , appearing in the train'd bands , going to pauls , being there at common-service , this is well ; but you are not charged for this , a man may do all this , and yet be a naughty man in printing abusive books , to the misleading of the kings subjects . if you have any thing to say as to that , i shall be glad to find you innocent . brewster . i have no more to say . l. ch. ju. hide . then you of the jury , there are some things in this indictment ( as in the other ) necessary to be stated to you , my brothers and i have consulted here about it , the indictment is for causing a factious and seditious book called the phoenix , &c. with divers other things therein to be printed . but pray let them see the book , and compare it with the indictment . cl. [ reads the indictment , and first the title ] the phenix , or the solemn league and covenant . [ edinburg , printed in the year of covenant-breaking ] a king abusing his power , to the overthrow of religion , lawes , and liberties , which are the very fundamentals of this contract and covenant , may be controlled and opposed . and if he set himself to overthrow all these by armes , then they who have power , as the estates of a land , may and ought to resist by armes ▪ because he doth by that opposition break the very bonds , and overthrow the essentials of this contract and covenant . this may serve to justifie the proceedings of this kingdom against the late king , who in a hostile way set himself to overthrow religion , parliaments , lawes and liberties . [ the rest is much at the same rate , only now and then a spice of blasphemy for the credit of the holy-league [ a greater sin ( is the breach of that scotch covenant , according to our author , pag. . ) then a sin against a commandement or against an ordinance , &c. ] l. ch. ju. hide . you of the jury , you see the indictment agrees with the book ; there 's a great deal of mercy that this man hath not been indicted of treason ; for those very particulars you have heard , are as high treason as can be . first , he doth declare , ` that the king abusing his ` power , the people may resist and take up armes against him ; that 's express treason without any more ado : then he tells you what a horrid thing it is to break that solemn league and covenant ; justifies the raising of armes , and rebellion against the late king , un-throning , and murdering of him . i tell you , that solemn league and covenant , was a most wicked and ungodly thing ; against the law of god , and the law of the land : to have such villanous stuff to be published , it is a great mercy of the king , it had not been drawn higher ; you see the man is so far from acknowledging any guilt , that he justifies the fact. brewster . no my lord , i do not justifie my self . l. ch. ju. hide . yes , you do ! the printer swears he was to go share and share like ; he had his part , he publishes them to some particular friends ; i say he justifies this . he tells you in his defence , that it was commonly printed , that it was done by printed copie ; and that done formerly by licence ; and when things are printed by licence , they do not expect or need any new , or second licence ; they were commonly sold asunder , here they are only printed together : that he sayes is nothing . what is this but justifying the printing of it ? observe , weigh , and see what kind of defence here is . the title , what is it ? the phenix , or solemn league and covenant ; you all know it , and rue it ; when was it printed ? it was when the wicked rebels here could not seduce sufficient numbers of the kings subjects to support their rebellion , and then they invite their dear brethren ( as they called them ) the scots to unite with them . the scots were cunning , they would not do it till they had entred into a covenant ▪ in a league , and then they consent to unite with the rebels here ; this league and covenant was indeed in defence of the king ▪ but how long ? so long as he defended them ( the presbytery and scotch discipline ) when they had got this good king into their hands , they put what terms upon him they pleased ; and then were these seditious sermons printed . douglas his was printed in scotland ; was it licensed here ? no , it was done there , and brought hither . then for the other sermon , by what licence was that printed ? observe the time when it was printed , was it not to set forward rebellion ? to set up the scotch presbytery ? and this in . when they were in arms against the king , after the king put himself upon his defence , and was at oxford ; do you tell me of the license of rebels ? ) then for your justification ; now ; when the king is so happily returned , now to publish these things a fresh to the people , that they might do the same again ! and i tell you once again ▪ it is mercy in the king that he was not indicted of treason . i shall leave it to you , you have had it fully proved . clark. set simon dover to the bar [ and here the indictment is read . ] mr. north. [ opens this indictment as the rest . ] serj. morton . we have but two witnesses , and they will prove the matter clearly ; there were two impressions of this book , we will prove he had a share in both of them . creek . [ sworn again . ] i delivered before what i can say . j. keeling . look you , you must deliver all that evidence over again , because it concerns another person . creek . i did say , and say still , that to the best of my memory , mr. dover did print part of that book , and that he and i did converse about it in the time it was doing , but i cannot swear it positively , because i cannot remember the time when , or the place where . ju. keeling . did you change sheets with him ? creek . with him , i cannot say , but some sheets were changed by our men . serj. morton . you say you think you had some discourse with him ; did not you speak about the danger of printing it ? creek . we talked of making an end of it . serj. morton . can you remember to what letter you printed ? creek . i have shewed the gentlemen of the jury . ju. keeling . had you no discourse of the danger of it ? creek . i thought it could not come to any thing , i did tell sir r. brown , ( then lord mayor ) that if they hanged twenty more , i thought i should print their speeches . j. keeling . you knew the contents of the book ? creek . yes i did . ju. keeling . such men as you , the king and the government hath a great interest in your trade ; that you should think it lawful to print what a man sayes when he dies , and to scatter it abroad though never so bad , it s a great offence , i would not have it pass for so clear a thing . l. ch. ju. hide . if you are of such principles to print what you list , you are not fit to live in a civil place , for a printer , or bookseller to print any thing one against the other , is actionable . l. ch. ju. hide . do you think the press is open to print what you list ? creek ▪ i did so then . l. ch. ju. hide . i 'le deal plainly with you ; for this book , if you had had your due , you ought both to have been drawn hang'd and quarter'd . l. ch. ju. hide . when did you give mr. l'estrange information of this matter ? creek . lately , when i was a prisoner in ludgate . mr. royston . [ one of the jury . ] i desire to ask him one question ▪ whether mr. creek saw this book a printing at mr. dovers house , or no ? creek . no i did not . serj. morton . they changed sheets ▪ thresher sworn . thresher . this is all that i have to say , that the first night that mr. brewster sent for me to stitch these books , it was very late before we could get them ▪ i went that night to mr. dovers , and had some of the sheets , the rest at mr. creeks , i did not see him print any of them . serj. morton . what quantity was there of them ? thresher ▪ i suppose there was two or three hundred sheets . mr. north. were they not of this book ? thresher . yes , of the speeches . mr. north. where were they delivered ? thresher . in the lower room , i suppose some of them were hanging upon lines before i had them . l. ch. ju. hide . what say you to it ? dover . i desire to ask him some questions . i do say , i never saw the man before , i would ask whether ever he saw me before in his life ? thresher . not before that , i was never in his house buy that night ▪ s by this token i saw you , and you me ; when i came for the sheets , you asked mr. brewster whether he and mr. calvert were agreed , or else you would not deliver the sheets . dover . i desire to know what time and place ; i am charged in the indictment on a day and place . l. ch. ju. hide ▪ that 's not very material . dover . he fixes nothing on me ▪ l. ch. ju. hide . that the jury can best tell ; have you any more questions ? dover . no my lord. [ the indictment and books were compared . ] dover . my lord , there is no person swears that i printed it , or part of it ; nothing fixed upon me . l. c. j. hide . the first man swears that you set it to printing . creek . i do not swear it positively , i never saw him print a sheet , it was the report of the town that he did it . l. ch. ju. hide . you printed it : for whom ? creek . for brewster , calvers , and chapman . l. ch. j. hide . but you say that you and he did converse about it when it was printing . creek . i did say to the best of my memory , we did . l. ch. j. hide . by the oath you have taken , who did you change sheets with ? creek . i cannot say , i did change any with him ; i say that some sheets were changed by my men , and they told me they had them of his men . dover . where are those men that changed the sheets , which of my men were they ? j. keeling . look you dover , you are indicted for causing to be printed this wicked book , and for publishing and vending of it ; you are a printer by your trade , as well as this man that comes against you , he says he did not see you print it , but he took it and believed that you printed it ; i tell you how far that weighs ; you are a printer by trade , and comes the other and desires the sheets , you would not deliver them unless mr. brewster , and mr. calvert were agreed ; how come the sheets to your house , being a printer , and yet you not print it ? answer that , dover . i shall my lord , it is no consequence at all ; admit i had these sheets , it is no consequence at all that i printed them ; for printers and booksellers usually have books they did not print themselves . l. ch. ju. hide . thresher , by the oath that you have taken , did you see those sheets hang ▪ upon the line in his house ? thresher . my lord , i judged these had lately hung up , and i saw other sheets hanging there , and i knew nothing to the contrary , but that those that hung upon the line were the same with these . l. ch. j. hide . here are sheets upon the lines , you delivered him to sold part of those on the lines : what would you have more plain ! you would not deliver them if they were not agreed ; then they were agreed , and you delivered them . dover . i say this , i look upon the witness to be altogether invalid , he is a person of no good repute . l. ch. ju. hide . a better man than you , for ought appears ; you are indicted for a foul offence , so is not he ? dover . i am not the man you take me to be . l. ch. ju. hide . you shall have evidence if you will , that you are at work at this time , upon as bad as this . dover . if it be a crime , i am sorry for is . mr. lestrange sworn . mr. lestrange . shall i speak to the whole matter , or only to the particular you last mentioned ? l. ch. ju. hide . say your knowledge . mr. lestrange . when i came to his house , which was about the middle of october , to search , i found at that present a little unlicenced quaking book , and in his pocket the libel that was thrown up and down the town , called , murder will out , ready printed . l. ch. ju. hide . which was a villanous thing and scattered at york . mr. l'estrange . since that , i was at his house to compare a flower , which i found in the panther ( a dangerous pamphlet ) that flower , that is , the very same border , i found in his house , the same mixture of letter , great and small in the same case , and i took a copy off the press : i found over and above , this letter [ producing the letter ] dated the th of february , and directed , for my dear and loving wife , j. dover . is it your lordships pleasure , i shall read it all ? l. ch. ju. hide . if it be touching the printing of things you found , do . mr. l'estrange . [ reads it ] i would fai● see my sister mary , therefore since sister hobbs will not come , take her order , and instead of her name , put in sister marys , it will never be questioned here ; however , do it as wisely , and handsomly as you can , &c. [ and thei● in a p. s. ] you must either get tom porter , or some very trusty friend ( possibly ● . d. may help you ) to get for you a safe and convenient room to dry books in , as soon as possibly you can . [ and again ] let me know what you intend to do with the two sheets and half , i will have it published when i am certain i shall be tryed . l. ch. ju. hide . let the jury see now , whether you are the man you would be thought . dover . i desire to know whether my name be to that letter . mr. l'estrange . no it is nor . l. ch. ju. hide . where did you receive or find this letter ? mr. l'estrange . my lord , i found it about his wife . l. ch. ju. hide . let the jury judge if this come from you or no. j. keeling . you of the jury , you must understand this , that what is said now , is only upon his reputation , not to the point in question at all ; that matter rests upon it's own bottom . l. ch. ju. hide . i 'le deal plainly with you , had he not stood upon such terms , i should not have spoke of this ; but when a man will be thus bold and confident , i thought it proper to let you see how he continues now in the goal . dover . i do not vindicate my self in it , but i speak against the witness , i do conceive that the witness does not fix any thing upon me . l. ch. ju. hide . have you any thing else to say to the indictment ? dover . i am indicted as a malicious and factions man , the witnesses sayes no such thing . l. ch. ju. hide . you are not indicted so , but that you have maliciously , and factiously caused to be printed such a seditious book , not your person , but the action . dover . there is nothing of that proved ; admit i was guilty of it , it was done when there was no act or law in being touching printing . the witnesses do not swear positively that i did do it ; one sayes , he did not see me , the other , that he only believed it ; that he did see some sheets upon the line , and they were the same for ought he knew ; does not remember the time or place of our discourse , i do not know that ever i had half an hours discourse with him in my life : i never had any meeting with him about any such matter , nor had any converse with him . the title of the book sayes , [ faithfully and impartially collected for further satisfaction ; ] so that it cannot be interpreted maliciously ; it 's a maxime in law , that the best interpretations are to be put upon the words of the indictment , in favour of the prisoner at the barr ; and i hope this honourable bench and the jury will mind that ; i am a printer by trade , what i did was for my livelyhood ; the scripture sayes , he is worse than an infidel that takes not care for his family : i speak not this to justifie any thing against his majesty or his government ; through my ignorance i may possibly transgress , if i have done any such thing , i am sorry for it , i hope i shall be more careful for the future : the other part of the indictment is for selling of them ; no man swears that i sold one book of them ; mr. creek saies , that some of his men told him , that he had some of those sheets from some of my folkes , but of whom he does not say : that i did meddle with them , knowing them to be scandalous , i hope there is nothing proved of that nature ; there being then no law , i humbly hope there was no transgression . l. ch. ju. hide . have you done ? dover . i humbly desire your honours and this jury , to take notice of what i have said . l. ch. ju. hide . you of the jury , i will not spend time ( it is too late ) in repeating the evidence , you have heard the evidence particularly , and his answer ; he doth in part make the same answer with his fellowes ; which was , that it is his trade : it 's true , no doubt but he ought to maintaine his wise and children , by his lawful calling ; but if a thief should tell you that he maintained his wife by stealing , is that lawful ? printing books lawfully , no man will call him to account for it ; but if he prints that that is abusive to the king and his government , that 's no part of his trade , and his trade will not bear him out in it : he is charged for printing and publishing of these scandalous books , that he did it knowingly , maliciously , falsly , factiously , and seditiously ; i told you , that although all these things be not proved , yet if he did it , the law calls it malice , faction , and sedition ; consider the circumstances , you see it is done in the dark ; the sheets delivered at his house , and discourse about delivery of them , he would not deliver them unless brewster and calvert were agreed ; i leave the evidence to you , in this case , pregnant strong undeniable circumstances , are good evidences : though a man doth not come and tell you , he declared to him he knew what was contained in this book , yet if there be sufficient evidence to satisfie you in your consciences , that he knew what was in it , and was privy to the printing and publishing of it ; there 's enough for you to find the indictment . you are to weigh circumstances , as well as pregnant full proof , in cases of this nature . clark. set nathan brooks to the bar ; you of the jury , you shall understand that he stands indicted , &c. reads the indictment . mr. north , afterwards opened the indictment . serj. morton . this man , we shall only prove him guilty of stitching , and dispersing the said books . thresher [ sworn ] this man i have not seen these three years . serj. morton . did he set you to work in stitching those books ? thresher . he brought none to me that i can remember ; but by mr. prewsters order i delivered about . or there . abouts , and carried them to his house in st. martins , and he took them at the stair-foot , and paid me for stitching of them in blew paper . serj. morton . who furnished you with blew paper ? tresher . i went by mr. erensters order to a stationer in breadstreet , and received some . brooks . i desire to know whether in those books he said he delivered me , there were those passages in the indictment . thresher . i know not ; they were the speeches and prayers that i delivered you . brooks . how did you deliver them to me ? thresher . they were stitcht , and i tyed them up with a piece of packthread , and carried them to him ; he received them himself , and came afterwards to an ale-house , and gave me a flagon of beer ; he knew what they were , for some being imperfect , he said mr. brewster must make them good ; and mr. brewster gave order , if he came for them , they should be delivered him . brooks . did you know there were those passages in them ? thresher . no not i. brooks . i knew only the title of it . l. ch. ju. hide . let there be what there will in it , if you knew the title , look you to it ; have you any thing else to ask ? brooks . no my lord. henry mortlock sworn . serj. morton . mr. mortlock , how many of those books did you receive of this nathan brooks ? mortlock . about fourty or fifty . serj. morton what talk had you about receiving them ? mortlack . i do not remember any discourse . serj. morton . where did you receive them ? mortlock . i am not certain , whether in my shop , or no. l. ch. ju. hide . were they open ? mortlock . they were tyed up . l. ch. ju. hide . did you speak for them ? mortlock . i cannot tell , he brought them to me . l. ch. ju. hide . how came he to bring them to you ? mortlock . may be i might speak for them , i paid him for them . l. ch. ju. hide . you and he knew what book it was ? mortlock . i think we did . l. ch. ju. hide . did you not open them ? they might have been the devil of edmonton , for ought you knew . did you open them afterward , and did they appear to be this book ? mortlock . yes . mr. l' estrange sworn . mr. l' estrange . i came to the house of nathan brooks , about october last , and knocking at the door , they made a difficulty to let me in ; at last seeing not how to avoid it , brooks opened the door ; i asked him , what he was ? he told me , he was the master of the house . by and by comes one that lodged in the house , and throws down this book [ shewing the book ] in the kitchin , with this expression ; i le not be hang'd ( says he ) for ne're a rogue of you all ; do you hide your books in my chamber ? this book had the speeches in it , with other schismatical treatises . after this i searched the next house , and there i found more difficulty to get in ; but after a long stay , i saw the second floor in a blaze , and then with a smiths sledge , i endeavoured to force the door ; at length , the fire was put out , and one comes down and opens the door ; i went in , and up staires where i found about . of the prelatick preachers , and certain notes of nathan brooks , wherein he mentions the delivery of several of these speeches , and other sedicious pamphlets . there is one particular , wherein he records , that thomas brewster did in the presence of captain hanson , undertake to bear his charges of imprisoment . this nathan brooks having been formerly imprisoned for a crime , wherein browster was to bear him out . l. ch. j. hide . what was it that burnt above ? mr. l' estrange . my lord , they had burnt i suppose , some of the prelatick preachers , ( a desperate book ) i found one bundle untied , and i suppose ( as the man told me after ) that it was a part of that which was burnt . l. ch. ju. hide . you say this was in the next house to brookes ; what had brooks to do there , had he conveyed those books thither ▪ mr. l'estrange . the owner of the house said , he knew nothing of them ; but a man and his wife lodging in the chamber where the fire was , said that nathan brooks had delivered with his own hands to them , those parcel of books that were there found . l. ch. ju. hide . you hear what he says ; that one of your guests came down , said , he would not be hanged for ne're a rogue of you all ; throws down the book — brooks . what 's that tome ; if a man have a book in his house , and throw it down , and say so , doth that concern me ? he did not bring it out of my chamber . one mercer sworn . mercer . my lord , [ having the book in his hand ] this is the book that i did find in a room brought up by nathan brooks , and i brought it down ; i had it in a room where two boyes and my sister lay . he came first and knockt at our chamber door ; said i , who is there ? sayes he , a friend , who are you ? brookes your landlord , saies he , pray you open the door , and lay up this book for me . no said i , if you were my father , or brother , i will not receive it , i will not meddle or make with you . after i had denied the book , he flings it into the next room . l. ch. ju. hide . how came you by the book ? mercer . after mr. lestrange had inquired there for books , i knew nothing ; but my wife called to my sister , and asked her if she heard mr. brooks in the boom ; she said yes , and he had left a book with her : having notice , i went up stairs , took the book , and brought it down presently . brooks . is that the book ? the very individual book that i brought up there ? l. ch. ju. hide . he swears this , that you knocked , and prayed him to take in a book ; he refused it . you went up to the next chamber , and there you left it ; and his wife asking afterwards if you had been there ; his sister said , yes , you had left a book , he brought it down , and this appears to be the very individual book , nothing can be more clear . mercers wife sworn . that morning they knocked at brooks his door , we were a bed , i heard a noise of theeves ; upon that i being awake , & my husband asleep , i waked him , and desired him to go to the window ; he asked who was there ? one said to him rise and open the door ; said my husband i am but a lodger , let my landlord open it if he will. who is your landlord ? mr. brook's , that 's the man i look for , sayes the other ; so with that after some time mr. brooks went down and opened the door . mr. lestrange coming up to my husband , sayes he , are you sure there is nothing in your rooms ? there is nothing said he . when my husband went down , i called to my sister ; said i , did you hear mr. brooks there ? yes , said she , he has left a book here : said i , do you know what 's in it ? it may bring us all into trouble . and my husband having confidently denyed any such thing , fearing he might be troubled , i called him up , and told him of it ; said my husband , i 'le call up the gentleman , and give it him , no said i , go take the book and carry it him . mercers sister sworn . thomazin mercer . it is very true that that is the very book i received from mr. brooks . l. c. j. hide . now the individual book is brought to light . brooks . what was the title of it ? t. mercer . i know not , but there was the speeches of the ten men that were executed . brooks . did you see that book , that very book ? t. mercer . yes . one mr. merridale sworn . mr. merridale . my lord , this very book did mercer bring down , told us , he would be hang'd for never a rogue of them all ; did he think to lay his books at my door ? i know this is the very book , i took notice of the picture of sir hen vane in it ; and he there owned it . mercer . i can tell that he owned it , and said , it was brought to him to be bound . l. ch. ju. hide . here are two hundred of these books are delivered to you to sell , fifty you deliver to another ; when mr. l' estrange comes to search , you open not your doors , when you see you could not stay longer , you run up to deliver it to mercer your guest , he would not receive it ; you deliver it to his sister , shee keeps it in her hands ; when her husband had denyed books to be there , and his wife understanding afterwards you had left it , she was afraid of her husband for denying it , calls him , and gives him the book , and then he said , he would be hang'd for never a rogue of you all ; throws down the book , and that was the very book the received from you , and your self did own it and confess it . brooks . as for mr. l' estrange , it is not so ; he sayes , when first he knocked at the door , i did not hear him , afterwards i called out who 's there , said one , which is mr. brooks ? said i , here , i told them if they would be civil , i would open the door , give me but leave to put on my breeches ; i went and opened it ; he doth not swear positively they are my books . my lord , this mercer was a lodger in my house ; i have often desired him to pay his rent , and since i have been taken , i have sent several messengers ; i told him i would seize his goods , and thereupon he speaks against me maliciously . i desire you to consider , i being only a workman , how can i be guilty of sedition and scandalous things ? i never printed any thing , i am only a book-binder , that 's my trade : i hope you will consider that , i am only a bare workman ▪ my lord , i desire when they go out , that some body may stand at the door , that no body may go into the jury . l. ch. ju. hide . we will take care of that ; have you any more to say ? brooks . no my lord. l. ch. ju. hide . you of the jury , you have heard so much of the other indictments of the same nature , i need not say much to this . that which he speaks touching his trade , i must repeat the same as before ; he is not questioned for using , but abusing of his trade , for publishing and despersing sedicious and scandalous books , printing and publishing , but the evidence is only for publishing . if you be satisfied that he published it , that 's the crime ; printing alone is not enough , for if a man print a book to make a fire on , that 's no offence , it is the publishing of it which is the crime ; you have heard the evidence , how far forth it is proved , two hundred delivered to him , fifty by him delivered to another ; this book you see his own conscience tells him what it was ▪ when mr. l'estrange came , he would have slipt it into his guests chamber , he refused it ; then he carries it to another , lay your evidence together , if you find him guilty of the publishing , it is enough . jury . we desire to know upon what statute law this indictment is grounded ? l. ch. ju. hide . upon none , but it is an offence at common law , i told you so at first . the jury went forth , and after near an hours consultation returned to the court , and took their places . cl. are you all agreed of your verdict ? jury . yes . cl. who shall say for you ? jury . the foreman . cl. set up the prisoners to the bar , how say you , is tho. brewster guilty of the offence whereof he stands indicted , for printing the sedicious book called the speeches , &c. or not guilty ? foreman . guilty of selling and uttering the said books . cl. what say you , is he guilty of the offence of printing and publishing the book called the phenix , &c. or not guilty ? foreman . guilty of publishing it . cl. how say you , is simon dover guilty of the offence for printing and publishing the speeches , &c. or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. how say you , is nathan brooks guilty of the offence for printing and selling the said book ? foreman . guilty of selling it . cl. hearken to your verdicts as the court hath recorded them ; you say , that &c. and so you say all ? jury ▪ yes . mr. north. my lord , we humbly pray sentence against the prisoners . l. ch. ju. hide . you three , tho. brewster , simon dover , and nathan brooks ; you have been severally indicted for a hainous and great offence ; brewster , you have been indicted for two several books , as full of villany , and slander , and repreach , to the king and government , as possibly can be : and i will tell you all three , it is the kings great mercy you have not been indicted capitally ; for every one of those books are fill'd with treason , and you for publishing of them , by strictness of law have for feited your lives , and all to the king ; it is his clemency towards you . you may see the kings purpose ; he desires to reform , not to ruine his subjects : the press is grown so common , and men take the boldness to print what ever is brought to them , let it concern whom it will ; it is high time examples be made . . i must let you and all men know , by the course of the common law , before this new act was made , for a printer , or any other , under pretence of printing , to publish that which is a reproach to the king , to the state , to his government , to the church , nay , to a particular person , it is punishable as a misdemeanour . he must not say , he knew not what was in it ; that is no answer in law. i speak this , because i would have men avoid this for time to come , and not think to shelter themselves under such a pretence . i will not spend time in discoursing of the nature of the offence , it hath been declared already ; it is so high , that truly the highest punishment that by law may be justly inflicted , is due to you . but tho brewster , your offence is double ; therefore the judgement of the court is , that you shall pay to the king for these offences committed , . marks ; and for you ( the other two ) simon dover , and nathan brooks , you shall pay either of you , a fine of marks to the king. you shall , either of you , severally stand upon the pillory , from eleven to one of the clock in one place at the exchange , and another day ( the same space of time ) in smithfield ; and you shall have a paper set over your ha●● , declaring your offence , for printing , publishing , scandalous , ' treasonable , and factious books against the king and state. you shall be committed til the next gaol-delivery , without bayl , and then you shall make an open confession , and acknowledgement of you offences , in such words as shall be directed you ; and afterwards , you shall remain prisoners during the kings pleasure ; and when you are discharged , you shall put in good security , by recognizance , your selves l . a peece , and two securities , each of you , of ● l . a peece , not to print or publish any books , but such as shall be allowed of : and this is the judgement of the court. in the interval , betwixt the condemnation and execution of john twyn , diverse applications were made to him , in order both to his temporal and eternal good ; and in particular , mr. weldon , the ordinary of newgate , spent much time and pains upon him , to convince him of that horrid crime , for which he was to suffer ; particularly pressing him to a confession both of his offence , and of the author of that treasonable piece , for which he was to die. his answer was , that it was not his principle to betray the au●hour ; but it belong'd to others : whereupon mr. ordinary demanded of him , what it was , that could prevail with him , to undertake the printing of it ? he said , he was a poor man , that he had received s . and the promise of a larger summe , whereupon he undertooke it ; but who it was that made him that promise , he would not'discover . mr. ordinary did likewise further urge him to a confession of the author , upon a confidence , that such a discovery might save his life . to which he replyed , that he neither could do it , not did believe himself obliged to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he could ; for better ( sayes he ) one suffer , then many . being pressed to receive the blessed sacrament , he return'd , that he was not free to do it ; he was against receiving according to the forms of this church ; and he hoped , he might do well enough without it ; and in this temper he continued till he came to the place of execution ; where going up the ladder , mr. sheriff told him , that if he had any thing to say , he should remember the cautions he had given him . twyn . i suppose this appearance of people doth expect that i should say something as to the matter i come here for . it is true , i come here condemn'd as a traytor , for printing a book , taken to be , and owned to be , and judged to be , scandalous and seditious . sir r. ford. and treasonable , put that in too . twyn . for my own part , i can say this , i knew it not to be so , till i came to the bar to be tryed ; i was surprized in the doing of it , both in the beginning , and at last , i was clear and free in my own thoughts as to intend any sedition . sir r. ford. i would not willingly interrupt a dying man ; i told you before that you must not declare any thing in justification , or mitigation , of so soul a crime ; but if you had any thing to say that was for the disburthening of your own conscience , or to give any good admonitions to the people to beware of falling into the like crime , you should be patiently heard : but i wonder you should go about to justifie your self in this , when you did confess both to my brother here , and my self , after sentence , that that which was passed upon you , was just , and deserved . twyn . i do not say otherwise of it , but that it was just ; but as to my ignorance of the matter of intending or imagining to foment and contrive any such thing tending to such ends , but barely for getting a little mony for my family ; i was as clear as the child unborn of any other design knowingly , of any such thing , i do look upon it as a surprizal ; first , i was surprized in this matter , by reason of that dangerous sickness , and weakness i was in when it was brought ▪ i received it with my own hands , but it was wrapt up in wast paper , and so i delivered is to my servant , he went on with it ▪ and two or three dayes after , it was taken from me by those that came to search my house , who themselves told me they came upon information ; so that it was a matter i was surprized with when it was brought in , by reason of my sickness and weakness , being unable to over look it : and likewise as soon as it was brought in , the third day i was discovered in it , by some way of information ; and whether those that were the senders of it in , might not be the discoverers , i know not ; some discovery was made by by the confession of those that searched my house they came by information , not by chance : then when they had taken me , i did ingeniously acknowledge and confess who i had it of ; and yet for all this , the searching after those persons concern'd was neglected that whole day ; they were at home , and easie to be taken , i could prove it . sir r. ford. mr. twyn , give me leave to tell you once more , that i am heartily sorry you have given me the occasion to interrupt you a second time ; all these things you pleaded at the bar , and said as much as you could ; the wisdom and justice of the bench did not think this to be a sufficient excuse of that treason you are found guilty of it ; i would ask to what end this discourse tends ; tell me your end ? twyn . my end is this , and it please your worship , to shew how ignorant and unacquainted i was with the nature of the thing ; and how far i was in my conscience , from intending that treason . sir r. ford. you say you were surprized , and that you knew not the treason ; was it not clearly and plainly ( by your own servant ) proved that you composed some part of it , and printed it your self , and corrected it ; you understood english , or else you could not correct it ; if you understood english , or sense , you could not be ignorant that it was a horrid piece of treason , such as no honest man ought to see and conceal one half hour . therefore do not justifie your self , it serves not to any purpose here , or in the world to come ; if you are not guilty of the malice , you have the more easie access to 〈◊〉 hereafter ; but that will not help you here on earth ; pray spend that little time you have to some better purpose then this ; if you have any thing to say that may become a modest man to say , we are willing to hear it ▪ if you can remember any person that assisted you in correcting it , or otherwise were concerned in it , say it . twyn . no person assisted me , i corrected it not , it was carried out of my house to correct , and brought in corrected . sir. r. ford. you shall not say that you are denied that christian liberty a dying man ought to have ▪ we are not to suffer any reflections on this business ; you had a fair tryal , i say we would not deprive you your liberty of speaking , but do not abuse that liberty that is given you , by spending your time impertinently , and fruitlesly , but if you have any thing further to offer to god , which is more for your good , go to that . twyn . i shall forbear to insist any further as to the narration of that matter , i shall be very unwilling and tender of reflecting any thing upon the king , or the government , or give offence to your worships , any way . sir r. ford. nothing but that , shall offend us . twyn . i shall go to prayer . sir r. ford. do , do , we will joyn with you , and pray for you . he continued in private prayer on the ladder some time . sir r. ford. executioner , do not turn him off , till he has given you a sign . mr. ordinary of newgate . mr. twyn , give a signe to the executioner , when you have done ▪ you must not throw yourself off , you will be your own executioner in that . twyn ▪ executioner , when i give you the sign , by pulling you by the shoo● , then turn me off . executioner . i will ▪ i will , the lord bless thy poor soul . afterwards the executioner comming down , mr. twyn told him the signe should be by moving his foot. twyn . o lord hear the prayer of thy poor servant , receive me into thy merry ▪ lord in thee ▪ i believe receive my spirit ; lord jesus ▪ let my prayers be acceptable in thy ●ights o lord my strength , and my redeemer ; o lord ▪ i beseech thee receive me into the armes of thy mercy , let me have an inheritance with thee , to live with thee for ever , and then come lord jesus come quickly . then giving the signe , the executioner did his office , and being cut down , his head was severed from his body , and his body divided into four quarters , which are to be disposed of as the king shall assigne ▪ since which time ▪ his head is placed over ludgate , and his quarters upon aldersgate , and other gates of the city . it will be here convenient , to make two observations upon the words of the prisoner . first , he sayes , that the proofs were sent out of his house to be corrected , and brought back again corrected , and so not corrected by himself : which is not onely contrary to what he formerly owned , as was made out by several proofs at his tryal , concerning his own correcting of it ; but to his solemn declaration at the bar , avowing that he knew nothing more of the business then what he there delivered : for , supposing such a confession , the next question would infallibly have been , to whom was it carried ? or , who corrected it ? as the readiest way to the discovery of the author . secondly , he sayes , that the persons concerned , ( meaning calvert , and her maid ) were neglected that whole day , being at home , and easie to be taken , which is disproved , both by his own servant , and mrs. calvert's : and likewise proved on the other side , that if he himself would have ordered his apprentice to have looked after the maid , ( as he promised , and was directed ) she had been secured that very morning : the fellow meeting her in st. bartholomews-close , within a quarter of an hour after his master was carried away ; not knowing that she had any concern in the business . as to the mistress her self , she is at present under custody . finis . the proceedings in relation to the tryal of edward fitz-harris, at the kings-bench-bar in westminster-hall, who stands indicted for high-treason which proceedings were on wednesday the th. and saturday the th. of this instant may, ... fitzharris, edward, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing p estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the proceedings in relation to the tryal of edward fitz-harris, at the kings-bench-bar in westminster-hall, who stands indicted for high-treason which proceedings were on wednesday the th. and saturday the th. of this instant may, ... fitzharris, edward, ?- . p. printed for j. millet ..., [london?] : . reproduction of original in huntington library. imprint taken from colophon. caption title. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng fitzharris, edward, ?- . trials (treason) -- great britain. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the proceedings in relation to the tryal of edward fitz-harris , at the kings-bench-bar in westminster-hall , who stands indicted for high-treason , which proceedings were on wednesday the th . and saturday the th of this instant may , . for that he by several hellish and diabolick practices , endeavoured to compass the death of his most sacred majesty , and to subvert the government . with the account of the substance of his plea , and the most remarkable circumstances that happened , during the debates on either side . on the th of this instant , about in the morning , edward fitz-harris was brought from the tower by water , strongly guarded to the kings-bench-barr in westminster-hall ; where being demanded what he would plead , he delivered his plea which was ready drawn up in writing to the court , and prayed that it might be read , which was granted ; but before the reading of it , one of the counsel for the prisoner stood up , and desired that he might be heard a few words , which were to this purpose , that they had endeavoured what in them lay to draw up their plea to concurr with the law in all points : and farther , that they had taken a view of the jornals of the lords house , and the entrys of the house of commons , to incert from them what was material in the behalf of the prisoner , and hoped the plea was such , as could not be refused , and therefore prayed that it might be read and accepted . a●ter which , the plea was audibly read , the substance of which was , that edward fitz-harris the prisoner at the bar , haveing been arraigned at the bar of a superior court , ( meaning the house of commons , ) and there put in jeopardy of his life , he did humbly conceive that he could not be twice arraigned for one and the same treason , nor tryed in any court than that where he was first arraigned , &c. referring the rest to a record that was pretended to be in the lords house . upon the reading of his plea , mr. attorney-general refus'd to accept of it , alledging it was not only nought , but altogether frivolous , being drawn up on purpose to question the jurisdiction and power of the court as to the tryal of the prisoner , and to gain time by delay : and farther , that he had not had such time to consider of the said plea as he ought , by reason he did not receive it before of the clock the night before , to the last it was answered , that some of the people that looked to the lords house were out of town , so that they could not without much difficulty procure such papers as were material in the behalf of the prisoner , and therefore hoped that that would not any ways be prejudicial to their plea , &c. when one of the counsel for the king standing up , made answer , that the plea was altogether frivolous , and contrived for delay to gain some advantage on the behalf of the prisoner , for at that time they rather ought to have pleaded to the matter of fact , than at all to question the jurisdiction of the court. as to the tryal of the prisoner , when all the judges had unanimously declared , that it was in their power to try him , notwithstanding his being impeached by the commons ; and farther , that the plea mentioned only treason in general , but named no particular treason , which they ought to have done , that they might the better have known how to have given their answer and stated their objections accordingly ▪ the which by reason of the nomination of treason in general , they could not do , not knowing whether the treason to be mentioned in the indictment was the same for which he stands impeached by the commons , and if not , then the debate as to law must consequently cease , and they must come to matter of fact. as to a record said to be in the house of lords , it was not mentioned what record , the which had it been , the jornal would be produced that there was no such record relating to the prisoner . after these and several other learned objections against the plea , mr. attorney general thought fit to demurr to it , which with the consent of the kings counsel , he did , and desired that the other side would joyn in demurrer , which they accordingly did , but prayed a considerable time might be granted to make preparation for answer , considering the life of a man was concerned in it , but that was strongly opposed by the kings council , who pleaded that in this case delays were dangerous , and that they had had four days already to consider on it , and that it was so foul a treason , that if the prisoner was guilty of it , he onght to have no favour or mercy shew'd him , and that his life ought to be destroyed , seeing he endeavoured to take away the life of the government . the counsel for the prisoner laboured to prove that it was usual to give time in such cases , and cited two presidents , but were over-ruled in both : by reason they were only indicted for misdemeanours , and the prisoner for the capitallest crime that the law makes mention of : then they objected that pluncket had time given him till the next term , out in that likewise they were over-ruled . my lord chief justice informed them , that he was indicted for treason in another kingdom , and that his witnesses being there , he could not possibly get them over before the term would be expired ; so that in conclusion , the prisoner had till saturday morning allowed him to prepare for his tryal ; when about of the clock he was brought to the bar. when mr. attorney general gave the court an account what more he had observed touching the insufficiency of the plea , and that it was drawn up on purpose to endeavour to lessen the jurisdiction of the court , which ought not to have been attempted : that the power of that court was unquestionable as to the tryal of the prisoner , notwithstanding any impeachment lodged in the house of commons , nor could it hinder the tryal as to matter of fact ; to which the counsel assigned for the prisoner , pleaded that the prisoner being impeached by the commons of england in the names of themselves , and in the names of all the commons of england , no inferiour court ought to undertake the tryal , that is , to take it out of he hands of the highest court of this kingdom , the which the lords and commons assembled in parliament are declaring , that such things had been formerly done but that they proved of fatal consequence to those judges who gave judgement in such cases , for that it was a breach of the rights and priviledges of parliaments , which ought not to be infringed , nor did it consist with the granduer of the nation , that such infringement should be made at this time , but did confess that there was no record in the house of lords as had been formerly suggested , inferring that an impeachment was much of the nature of an appeal , where the son and the wife of any murder'd person might bring their appeal , and notwithstanding the murtherer had been tryed and acquitted or after condemnation pardoned . and that an impeachment is not at the suit of the king but at the suit of the people , and that all the people of england , viz. the commons , are his accusers , and therefore the jury and judges upon the bench being commons of england , they could not see how they could undertake to try him , but that he ought to be tryed before the lords in parliament , they being the rightful judges to determine any matter at the suit of the people ; that is , i 〈…〉 se of an impeachment : in order to confirm which , many presidents and antient records were cited , especially the case of the earl of shaftsbury , who being committed by parliament for high misdemeanour , he moved at the kings bench-barr , that he might be brought thither by habaes corpus and bailed , but it was refused him by the judges then sitting , declaring they would not meddle in that case , by reason he was committed by parliament during the pleasure of the king and house of lords . to these and many more , the kings counsel very learnedly replyed , and stated their objections to each particular point , saying , that no impeachment lodged in the house of commons could hinder the proceeding of an inferiour court , for if so , the justice of all inferiour courts be incroached upon , and in time be much bestraightned and confined within narrow limits ; and notwithstanding all the prisoners counsel had said it was absolutely in their power to try him ; and that the nature of an appeal was different from that of an impeachment : and farther , since they had allowed , that the commons are the grand inquest of the nation , whether or no they had not made this presentment for the king ? and if so , the prisoner without any more ado might be tryed at the kings suit , and therefore prayed the court that the plea might be over-ruled . to which the court was pleased to answer , that notwithstanding all that counsel had said , they were fully satisfied that they had power to try the prisoner as to matter of fact , notwithstanding the impeachment of the commons , that they intended to preceed according to law , and had not any thing to do with matters in parliament , but this treason being committed out of parliament , and the criminal brought before them , they ought to do justice , but would not be hasty on them , but would give them yet longer time , by reason it was a matter of weight and moment ; and therefore ordered the lieutenants deputy to carry back his prisoner . finis . printed for , j. millet , in the year . the true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly which began on wednesday the th of this instant april and ended on thursday the th following giving an account of most of the remarkable trials there, viz. for murder fellonies and burglaries, &c. with a particular relation of their names, and the places of their committing their facts, with the number of those condemned to die, burn'd in the hand, transported and to be whipt. but more especially of the trial and condemnation of that notorious highway-man randolph poulson, and john francis dickison for high-treason, who received sentence to be hang'd drawn and quartered, and ann price for murther approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly which began on wednesday the th of this instant april and ended on thursday the th following giving an account of most of the remarkable trials there, viz. for murder fellonies and burglaries, &c. with a particular relation of their names, and the places of their committing their facts, with the number of those condemned to die, burn'd in the hand, transported and to be whipt. but more especially of the trial and condemnation of that notorious highway-man randolph poulson, and john francis dickison for high-treason, who received sentence to be hang'd drawn and quartered, and ann price for murther england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) p. printed by d. mallet, [london : ] caption title. imprint from colophon. reproduction of the original in the henry e. huntington library and art gallery. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng poulson, randolph, d. -- early works to . dickison, john francis, d. -- early works to . price, ann, d. -- early works to . crime -- england -- early works to . criminals -- england -- early works to . trials -- england -- early works to . murder -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly which began on wednesday the th of this instant april and ended on thursday the th following . giving an account of most of the remarkable trials there , viz. for murder fellonies and burglaries , &c. with a particular relation of their names , and the places of their committing their facts , with the number of those condemned to die , burn'd in the hand , transported and to be whipt . but more especially of the trial and condemnation of that notorious highway-man randolph poulson , and john francis dickison for high-treason , who received sentence to be hang'd drawn and quartered , and ann price for murther ann price was arraigned and tried for felloniously murthering her bastard male-infant in the parish of st. margaret's westminster ; the circumstances thus , she having lived in the nature of a servant with a gentlewoman ; as she confessed , was got with child by a man that was her fellow servant ; and carried it so cuningly , that no person in the house did in the least suspect her till after she was delivered , which was without help , when wraping the child in an apron . she locked it up in her box ; and rising betimes in the morning , made a fire and went to bed again ; so that her mistris finding her out of order , began to examine the cause ; whereupon supspecting what had happen'd , she got a midwife , who upon inquiry found she had been delivered ; the which she stoutly denied , but at last confessed she had , the child being still born , and that she had locked it in her box. where it was accordingly found , this being sworn by the witness ; her answer was , that she finding her pains come fast upon her : knckked with her shoo , as loud as possible , but could make none hear her , by reason she lay up three pair of stairs ; but the concealing of the child , being a material point of evidence against her ; upon the reciting the statute , she was found guilty of murther . sibel thomas was indicted for the murther of one mary hut , a maid of about eighteen years of age , living in white-chappel ; the manner thus , some angry words rising between the mother of the deceased , and the prisoner , the deceased , in taking her mothers part , gave the prisoner such bad language as provoked her to strike her , and after having thrown her in the kenel , to tread upon her ; who in a fortnights time after died ; but she being proved to be a sickly maid , and upon search no bruses being found about her , the prisoner was acquited . ann foster was tried for stealing of wearing apparel , lace , puter , silver spoons and other things to a very considerable value from a gentleman , living in the parish of st. clements deans , on the twenty-fourth of march last , several of the goods being found where she had disposed of them ; and the evidence being plain against her she was found guilty of the fellony . randol polson , who had formerly kept a lime-wharf near the horse-ferry , was indicted for stealing a mare , valued at six pounds , a saddle , bridle and whip , from one mr. mead ; the circumstances according to evidence thus , the prosecuter coming from dedford , met the prisoner and another near the halph-way-house , who bid him stand and deliver ; whereupon he turning his mare about , made up to the adjacent houses ; but they firing after him , caused him to dismount and stand to their mercy , who took about seven shillings in money , a pocket-book , and some ribon from him ; and after that his mare , the which was afterwards found in an inn in westminster , being brought thither by the prisoner and a boy , aud described to be kept private . so that upon this , and the prisoners own confession during his imprisonment in the gate-house , he was found guilty of stealing the mare , &c. joseph wood-all was indicted for murthering john crafts , of the parish of st. martins in the fields ; according to evidence thus , the prisoner being labourer to the deceased , who was a brick-layer , and not minding his work , the deceased told him , if he neglected it , he must employ another , upon which the prisoner told him if he would pay him his wages , he would be gon , but the deceased denying he owed him any ; having passed his word to secure the house where he lodged ; whereupon a quarrel arose , and the prisoner beat the deceased so unmercifully , that he died in three weeks afterward , and laid his death to the prisoner , who thereupon was found guilty of man-slaughter . edward richardson who had been formerly condemned for cliping and had got pardon for transportation , was indicted for several roberys on the high-way , to all which he pleaded guilty . john bully , who about three sessions's since was indicted upon the statute of the twenty-fifth of elizabeth , for that he having received orders from the see of rome , came over into england and acted as a priest , whose trial was put off once for his pretending want of evidence , and last sessions by reason of a special plea he brought , to which the kings attorny general made a demur , being now called up and his indictment read ; he pleaded guilty desiring the court to pardon him for the trouble he had put them to ; saying , that he had been ill advised in so doing , and that it was his full intent after his being cleared at lancaster to depart the kindom ▪ and that he had writtent a book touching the unlawfulness of murthering or deposing princes and had perswaded very many catholicks to take the oaths of allegiance and supremacie , after which he desired the court would have a favourable opinion of him , and threw himself wholly upon their mercy . martha du boardas , of the parish of st. martins in the fields being a french woman ▪ and not able to speak english , was indicted for robing stephen beamont a french marchant , with whom she lived as a servant or house-keeper , on the third of this instant , of a silver watch , a diamond ring valued at four pounds , three gold chains , thirty guinies , pounds worth of plate ▪ & in moneys l. the which upon the death of her master , she had conveyed away ; the plate and moneys upon the constables searching the house , being found in her custody , she aledged that her master gave them to her in his life time and brought witness to prove it , but notwithstanding she was found guilty of the fellony . richard eaton , a seaman was arraigned for breaking open a ship that lay in the river of thames over against waping , and taking thence sea-cloaths , beds , blankets , rugs , shifts , a pistol and several other things belonging to the captain , and other of the ships crue , the which he geting on shoar , called a porter to carry them away ; but being pursued a great part of the goods were found , where he had laid them ; being asked what he could plead for himself , his answer was , that he bought them of a sea-man ; but to producing the man , nor proving the buying of them , he was found guilty . sarah star was indicted for that she on the of this instant robed one john weller , with whom she was a servant ; of goods to the value of fourteen shillings ; being a servant in his house ; the things being sheets , table cloaths and napkins , which were found at an old womans house , where she hod carried them to have shifts made of them ; she pleaded a lodger gave them to her , but that excuse being groundless she was found guilty to the value of three shilling . john francis dickison , a notorious popish priest being taken in newgate , as he came to pervert on martha cook a convict , his indictment being grounded upon a statute made in the third year of king james , to prevent drawing away the king's subjects from their allegiance ; the manner thus , martha cook about three quarters of a year since being condemned for cliping and coyning , and remaining in newgate , two women that were her fellow prisoners , perswaded her to embrace the rom●sh religion , and after some yielding to their proposition ; the prisoner was sent by the priests into the press-yard to visit her , who upon promise to get her a pardon , made her renounce the protestant religion gave her the sacrament , confessed her , &c. and to encourage her to perservere in what she had embraced , oftentimes brought her money ; the which she disclosing to on partridg a presbyterian minister , he discovered it to the ordinary , who acquainted captain richardson with the same ▪ so that about the twenty-first of october last , the prisoner coming to visit his proselite , was seised in the hole , and after some time carried before sir william turner , where he owned himself to be a priest ; and that he was chaplain to the portugal embassadour ; whereupon he was commited , upon his trial he likewise owned himself a priest ; and but faintly denied the pervertion , mr. ordinary , mr. partridg , and martha cook giving evidence against him ▪ after the jury were satisfied of the statute , they brought him in guilty ; and he was sentenced to be drawn , hang'd and quartered as a traitor , &c. an indictment was preferred by one william roman against mary snell and sarah chapman , alias wood , for stealing a silver taster ' and a silver tankard vallued at seven pounds , which the former coming into his house to drink stole , and the other disposed of them , but the evidence not being positive against her , only mary snell was found guilty of this fellony . but a second indictment was preferred against sarah chapman , alias wood , for stealing corrals , vallued at pounds , from one mr. harding in the parish of st. mary woolnoth , the which she sold for about three pounds to a goldsmith in fleetstreet , which being plainly proved , she was found guilty . susanna hern and elizabeth rycroft , were found guilty , the former for stealing a silver tankard , the latter for robing her master of linnen cloth. there were men and women received sentence of death , viz. randolph poulson for stealing a mare and other things on the high-way , john francis dickason for high-treason . ann price for murdering her bastard ▪ child , martha beardos , ▪ susannah hern , sarah chapman , elizabeth rycroft and mary snell for fellonies and burglaries . burn'd in the hand , to be transported , and to be whipt . london , printed by d. mallet . . the tryal of edward coleman, gent. for conspiring the death of the king, and the subversion of the government of england and the protestant religion who upon full evidence was found guilty of high treason, and received sentence accordingly, on thursday, november the th, . coleman, edward, d. , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of edward coleman, gent. for conspiring the death of the king, and the subversion of the government of england and the protestant religion who upon full evidence was found guilty of high treason, and received sentence accordingly, on thursday, november the th, . coleman, edward, d. , defendant. england and wales. court of king's bench. [ ], p. printed for robert pawlet ..., london : . reproduction of original in university of michigan libraries. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng charles -- ii, -- king of england, - . coleman, edward, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (treason) -- england. popish plot, . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal of edward coleman , gent. for conspiring the death of the king , and the subversion of the government of england , and the protestant religion : who upon full evidence was found guilty of high treason , and received sentence accordingly , on thursday november the th . london , printed for robert pawlet at the bible in chancery-lane near fleet-street , . november . . i do appoint robert pawlet to print the tryal of edward coleman : and that no other person presume to print the same . william scroggs . the tryal of edward coleman , gent. on wednesday the twenty seventh day of november . mr. coleman ( having been arraigned the saturday before for high treason ) was brought to the kings bench bar , to receive his tryal , and the court proceeded thereupon , as followeth . court. cryer , make proclamation . proclamation for silence . cryer . o yes ! our sovereign lord the king do's strictly charge and command all manner of persons to keep silence , upon pain of imprisonmen● . if any one can inform our sovereign lord the king , the king's serjeant , or the king's attorney general , or this inquest now to be taken , of any treason , murder , felony , or any other misdemeanour committed or done by the prisoner at the bar , let them come forth , and they shall be heard , for the prisoner stands at the bar upon his deliverance . court. cryer , make an o yes . cryer . o yes ! you good men that are impannelled to enquire between our sovereign lord the king , and edward coleman prisoner at the bar , answer to your names . court. edward coleman , hold up thy hand . these good men that are now called , and here appear , are those which are to pass between you and our sovereign lord the king , upon your life or death , if you challenge any of them , you must speak as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they are sworn . the prisoner challenging none , the court proceeded , and the jury were sworn , viz. jury . sir reginald foster , baronet . sir charles lee. edward wilford , esquire . john bathurst , esquire . joshua galliard , esquire . john bifield , esquire . simon middleton , esquire , henry johnson , esquire . charles vmfrevile , esquire . thomas johnson , esquire . thomas eaglesfield , esquire . william bohee , esquire . court. cryer , make an o yes . cryer . o yes ! our sovereign lord the king does strictly charge and command all manner of persons to keep silence upon pain of imprisonment . court. edward coleman , hold up thy hand . you gentlemen of the jury that are now sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his charge . you shall understand , that the prisoner stands indicted by the name of edward coleman late of the parish of st. margarets westminster in the county of middlesex , gent. for that he as a false traytor against our most illustrious , serene , and most excellent prince charles , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. and his natural lord ; having not the fear of god in his heart , nor duely weighing his allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , his cordial love and true duty , and natural obedience , ( which true and lawful subjects of our said lord the king ought to bear towards him , and by law ought to have ) altogether withdrawing , and devising , and with all his strength intending , the peace and common tranquillity of this kingdom of england to disturb , and the true worship of god within the kingdom of england practised , and by law established , to overthrow , and sedition and rebellion within this realm of england to move , stir up , and procure , and the cordial love and true duty and allegiance , which true and lawful subjects of our sovereign lord the king toward their sovereign bear , and by law ought to have , altogether to withdraw , forsake , and extinguish ; and our said sovereign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , the twenty ninth day of september in the seven and twentieth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord charles the second , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. at the parish of st. margarets westminster aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , and traiterously proposed , compassed , imagined and intended , to stir up , and raise sedition and rebellion within the kingdom of england , and to procure and cause a miserable destruction among the subjects of our said lord the king , and wholly to deprive , depose , deject , and disinherit our said sovereign lord the king , of his royal state , title , power , and rule of his kingdom of england , and to bring and put our said sovereign lord the king to final death ▪ and destruction , and to overthrow and change the government of the kingdom of england , and to alter the sincere and true religion of god , in this kingdom by law established ; and wholly to subvert and destroy the state of the whole kingdom , being in the universal parts thereof well established and ordained , and to levy war against our said sovereign lord the king , within his realm of england : and to accomplish and fulfill these his most wicked treasons , and trayterous designs and imaginations aforesaid , the said edward coleman afterward , that is to say , the nine and twentieth day of september in the twenty seventh year of the reign of our said lord the king , at the parish of st margarets westminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , deceitfully , and trayterously composed , contrived , and writ two letters , to be sent to one monsieur le chese , then servant and confessor of lewis the french king , to desire , procure , and obtain , for the said edward coleman and other false traytors against our said sovereign lord the king , the aid , assistance , and adherence of the said french king , to alter the true religion in this kingdom established , to the superstition of the church of rome , and to subvert the government of this kingdom of england : and afterwards , ( that is to say ) the said nine and twentieth day of september in the year aforesaid , at the parish of st. margarets westminster in the county of middlesex aforesaid , the said edward coleman falsely , trayterously , and maliciously composed and writ two other letters , to be sent to the said monsieur le chese , then servant and confessor to the said french king , to the intent that he the said monsieur le chese should intreat , procure , and obtain for the said edward coleman and other false traytors against our sovereign lord the king , aid , assistance , and adherence of the said french king , to alter the true religion in this kingdom of england established , to the superstition of the church of rome , and to subvert the government of this kingdom of england : and that the said edward coleman , in further prosecution of his treason and trayterous imaginations and intentions , as aforesaid , afterward , viz. the twenty ninth day of september in the seven and twentieth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord king charles of england , &c. the said several letters , from the said parish of st. margarets westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , maliciously and trayterously , did send to the said monsieur le chese , into parts beyond the seas , there to be delivered to him : and that the said edward coleman , afterward , viz. the first day of december , in the seven and twentieth year of our said sovereign lord the king , at the said parish of st. margarets westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , did receive from the said monsieur le chese , one letter , in answer to one of the said letters first mentioned , and written by him the said edward coleman , to the said monsieur le chese , which said letter in answer , as aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , and trayterously received , the day and year aforesaid , at the parish of st. margarets westminster aforesaid , the said edward coleman did falsly , trayterously and maliciously read over and peruse ; and that the said edward coleman , the letter so as aforesaid , by him in answer to the said letter , received into his custody and possession , the day and year last mentioned , at the parish of st. margarets westminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , did falsly , maliciously , and trayterously detain , conceal , and keep. by which letter the said monsieur le chese , the day and year last mentioned , at the parish of st. margarets westminster in the county of middlesex aforesaid , did signifie and promise to the said edward coleman , to obtain for the said edward coleman , and other false traytors against our sovereign lord the king , aid , assistance and adherence from the said french king , and that the said edward coleman afterward , viz. the tenth day of december in the seven and twentieth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king , at the parish of st. margarets westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , his wicked treasons and traiterous designs and proposals as aforesaid did tell and declare to one , mounsieur revigni , envoy extraordinary from the french king to our most serene and sovereign lord king charles , &c. in the county aforesaid residing , and did falsly , maliciously and trayterously move and excite the said envoy extraordinary to partake in his treason ; and the sooner to fulfil and compleat his traiterous designs , and wicked imaginations and intentions , the said edward coleman afterward , viz. the tenth day of december in the seven and twentieth year of the reign of our sovereign lord king charles , the second of england , &c. aforesaid at the parish of st. margarets westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , did advisedly , maliciously , deceitfully , and traiterously compose and write three other letters to be sent to one sir william throckmorton kt. then a subject of our said soveraign lord the king of this kingdome of england , and residing in france , in parts beyond the seas , viz. at the parish of st. margarets westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , to sollicite the said monsieur le chese to procure and obtain of the said french king , aid , assistance , and adherance , as aforesaid , and the said letters last mentioned afterward , viz. the day and year last named as aforesaid from the said parish of st. margarets westminster , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , did falsly and t●aiterously send , and cause to be delivered to the said sir vvilliam throckmorton in france aforesaid , against his true allegiance , and against the peace of our sovereign lord the king that now is , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . court. upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and hath pleaded thereunto not guilty ; and for his tryal he puts himself upon god and his country ; which country you are . your charge is to enquire , whether he be guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty . if you find him guilty , you are to enquire what goods and chattels , lands and tenements he had at the time , when the high treason was committed , or at any time since ; if you find him not guilty , you are to say so , and no more , and hear your evidence . cryer . if any one will give evidence on the behalf of our soveraign lord the king , against edward coleman the prisoner at the bar , let him come forth , and he shall be heard ; for the prisoner now stands at the bar upon his deliverance . mr. recorder . may it please you my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury ; mr. edward coleman , now the prisoner at the bar , stands indicted for high treason , and the indictment sets forth , that the said edward coleman , indeavouring to subvert the protestant religion , and to change and alter the same ; and likewise to stir up rebellion and sedition amongst the kings liege people , and also to kill the king ; did on the th . of september in the twenty seventh year of the reign of our sovereign lord the king , at the parish of st. margarets vvestminster in this county , compose and write two several letters to one mounsieur le chese , that was then servant and confessor to the french king , and this was to procure the french kings aid and assistance to him and other traitors , to alter the religion practised , and by law established here in england , to the romish superstition . the indictment sets forth likewise , that on the same day , he did write and compose two other letters to the same gentleman , that was servant and confessor to the said king , to prevail with him to procure the french kings assistance to alter the religion in this kingdome established to the romish religion . the indictment sets further forth , that he caused these two letters to be sent beyond the seas . and it also sets forth that on the tenth of december , the same moneth he did receive a letter from the gentleman , that was the confessor , in answer to one of the former letters , and in that letter aid and assistance from the french king was promised ; and that he did traiterously conceal that letter . my lord , the indictment sets out further , that on the tenth day of the same moneth , he did reveal his treasons and traiterous conspiracies to one mounsieur revigni , who was envoy from the french king to his majesty of great britain . and his indictment declares , he afterwards did write three letters more to sir vvilliam throckmorton , then residing in france , to procure the french kings assistance to the alteration of the religion practised here in england . of these several offences he stands hereindicted . to this he hath pleaded not guilty . if we prove these , or either of them in the indictment , you ought to find him guilty . serj. maynard . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; this is a cause of great concernment . gentlemen , the prisoner at the bar stands indicted for no less than for an intention and endeavour to murther the king ; for an endeavour and attempt to change the government of the nation , so well settled and instituted , and to bring us all to ruin and slaughter of one another , and for an endeavour to alter the protestant religion , and to introduce instead of it , the romish superstition , and popery . this is the charge ( in general ) of the indictment . we will proceed unto particulars , whereby it may appear , and whereupon he indeavoureth to accomplish his ends . one or two letters written to mounsieur le chese ( he is a foreigner , and we have nothing to say to him , being confessor to the french king ) it was to excite and stir him up to procure aid and assistance ( and you know what aid and assistance means ) from a foreign prince , arms , and other levies . we charge him with it , that he did receive this letter , i and received an answer with a promise , that he should have assistance . he writ other letters to sir william throckmorton , who trayterously conspired with him , and had intelligence from time to time from him . this is the charge in the indictment ; to which he hath pleaded , not guilty . we will go on in our evidence : i shall , but more generally , open our method , that we intend to take . for it may seem strange , and is not reasonably to be imagined , that a private gentleman , as the prisoner at the bar is , should have such vast and great designs as this , to alter religion , destroy the government , i , and destroy the subjects too in a great measure . but 't is not himself alone , but he imploys himself for forreign assistance , great confederacies and combinations with the subjects of that king , many of whom he did pervert . in the course of the evidence i shall not open the particulars , ( mr. attorney , i think , will do that by and by ) those that we have occasion to speak of , and shall in proof mention to you , will be these . le chese , the french kings present confessor we have mentioned : before him there was one father ferryer , with whom he held correspondence . that ferryer being removed by death , the prisoner had an imployment here amongst us , by which he gave to le chese instructions how to proceed . this gentleman is the great contriver and plotter , which gives him instructions how to proceed . he doth give him an account by way of narrative , how all things had stood upon former treaties and negotiations , how businesses were contrived , and how far they were gone ; this he diligently and accurately gives an account of . this ( my lord ) doth discover and delineate what had been done before until . my lord , there was likewise sir william throckmorton and some others , that are englishmen too , there are none of them , but what were first protestants , but when they once renounced their religion , no wonder they should renounce their nation , and their prince too . he was gone beyond the seas , several letters past between them , and all to promote and encourage , and accomplish this design . my lord , there is likewise a consult of jesuits used too , where , in express words they designed to murther the king , or contrived , and advised upon it . my lord , there were four irish men ( i open but the heads of things ) sent to windsor to murther the king , this gentleman received and disbursed money about this business , and one ashby a jesuit here had instructions from him to prosecute the design , and to treat with a physitian to poyson the king , this the prisoner approved of , and contributed to it . there were commissions ( as i take it ) delivered from ferryer ; or by his hand , that came from forreign powers . sir henry titchburn was another that received and delivered commissions . pompone the french gentleman , he maintains intelligence with him about this business , the titular arch-bishop of dublin . there 's cardinal norfolk , by him he had accession to the pope . there was likewise the popes nuncio ( i do not open the transactions of these iustructions ) these particulars will be made out , not only by witness viva voce , and not single only , but by letters of this mr. colemans own writing . but i offer that to the consideration of the jury . mr. oats was the first man , that we hear of , that discovered this treason ; he was the single man that discovered so many active agents in so great a treason , as this was , and it needed to be well seconded , but , he being found to be but single , the boldness and courage of these complotters in it grew great thereupon . we know what followed ; the damnable murther of that gentleman , in execution of his office , so hellishly contrived , and the endeavours that were used to hide it , every body knows : how many stories were told to hide that abominable murther , how many lies there were about it , but it could not be supprest . the nation is awaken'd out of sleep , and it concerns us now to look about us . but all this while , mr. coleman thought himself safe , walked in the fields , goes abroad , jealousie increasing , and he himself still secure . the letters that are produced go but to some part of the year : from unto all lies in the dark , we have no certain proof of it ; but we apprehend he had intelligence until ; that there were the same persons continuing here , and his company increasing here : but this i speak but as probable , ( but very exceeding probable ) that there was other passages of intelligence between this person and other confederates . it seems ( my lord ) that this coleman was aware that he was concerned ; but god blinded and infatuated him , and took away his reason . it 's no question but he carried away some of those papers ; those that were left behind , and are produced , he forgot and neglected ; and by that ( my lord ) those which are produced , are evidence against him at this time . surely he thought we were in such a condition , that had eyes and could not see , and ears that could not hear , and understandings without understanding : for he was bold , and walked abroad , and that until this prosecution was made upon him , he endeavoured to murther the king , change the government , make an alteration of religion , and destruction of protestants , as well as the protestant religion ; and it will be proved by some letters , when they were rejected by the duke , that he sent them in the dukes name . and by this no man will doubt but he is a great traitor . attorn . gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , the kings serjeant hath opened the general parts of our evidence ; and we have reason to foresee that our evidence will be very long , and will take up much of your time ; and therefore i shall spend no more time in opening of it than is just necessary . and indeed ( my lord ) mr. coleman himself hath saved me much of the labour , which otherwise i should have bestowed ; for he hath left such elegant and copious narratives of the whole design under his own hand , that the reading of them will be better than any new one i can make . but ( my lord ) some short account i shall give you , such as may shew you the course of our evidence , and will make our evidence , when it comes to be given , to be more intelligible . my lord , it will appear , that there hath been for many years last past , a more than ordinary design and industry to bring in the popish , and extirpate the protestant religion . i doubt not but this design , in some measure , hath been contriving ever since the reformation , by the jesuits , or some of their emissaries , but hath often received interruption ; so that they have proceeded sometimes more coldly , sometimes more hotly : and i do think , at no time since the reformation , that ever this design was carried on with greater industry , nor with fairer hopes of success , than for these last years . my lord , you will hear from our witnesses , that the first onset , which was to be made upon us , was by whole troops of jesuits and priests , who were sent hither from the seminaries abroad , where they had been trained up in all the subtilty and skill that was fit to work upon the people . my lord , you will hear how active they have been , and what insinuations they used for the perverting of particular persons . after some time spent in such attempts , they quickly grew weary of that course ; though they got some proselytes , they were but few . some bodies , in whom there was a predisposition of humors , were infected , but their numbers were not great . they at last resolve to take a more expeditious way ; for in truth , ( my lord ) they could not far prevail by the former . and i wish with all my heart , that the bodies of protestants may be as much out of danger of the violence of their hands , as their understandings will be of the force of their arguments . but ( my lord ) when this way would not take , they began then to consider they must throw at all at once . no doubt but they would have been glad , that the people of england had had but one neck ; but they knew the people of england had but one head , and therefore they were resolved to strike at that . my lord , you will find , that there was a summons of the principal jesuits , of the most able head-pieces , who were to meet in april or may last , to consult of very great things , of a most diabolical nature , no less than how to take away the life of the king our sovereign my lord , you will find ( as is usually practised in such horrid conspiracies ) to make all secure , that there was an oath of secresie taken , and that upon the sacrament . you will find agreements made , that this most wicked and horrible design should be attempted . you will find two villains were found among them , who undertook to do this execrable work ; and you will hear of the rewards they were to have : money in case they did succeed , and masses good store in case they perished ; so that their bodies were provided for in case they survived , and their souls if they died . my lord , what was the reason they did not effect their design , but either that these villains wanted opportunity , or their hearts failed them , when they came to put in execution this wicked design ; or , perhaps ( which is most probable ) it was the providence of god , which over-rul'd them , that this bloody design did not take its effect . but these gentlemen were not content with one essay , they quickly thought of another ; and there were four irish-men prepared ( men of very mean fortunes , and desperate conditions ) and they were to make the attempt no longer since , than when the king was last at windsor . my lord , i perceive by the proofs , that these last assassinates went down thither ; but it came to pass ( for some of the reasons aforesaid ) that that attempt failed likewise . my lord , these gentlemen , those wise heads , who had met here in consultation , did then , and long before , consider with themselves , that so great a cause as this , was not to be put upon the hazard of some few hands ; they therefore prepared forces , aids , and assistances , both at home and abroad , to second this wicked design ; if it had succeeded as to the person of the king , and if that fail'd , then by their foreign and domestick aids and assistances , to begin and accomplish the whole work of subverting our government and religion . and here we must needs confess , as to the former part of this plot , which we have mentioned , i mean the attempt upon the kings person , mr. coleman was not the contriver , nor to be the executioner ; but yet your lordship knows , in all treasons there is no accessory , but every man is a principal . and thus much we have against him , even as to this part of the design , which will involve him in the whole guilt of it , that mr. coleman consented to it , though his hand were not to do it . mr. coleman encouraged a messenger to carry money down as a reward of these murtherers , that were at windsor ; of this we have proof against him , which is sufficient . my lord , mr. coleman , as a man of greater abilities , is reserved for greater employments , and such wherein , i confess , all his abilities were little enough . there were negotiations to be made with men abroad , money to be procured , partly at home from friends here , and partly abroad from those , that wish'd them well : and in all these negotiations mr. coleman had a mighty hand ; and you will perceive by and by what a great progress he made in them . this conspiracy went so far , as you will hear it proved , that there were general officers named and appointed , that should command their new catholick army , and many were engaged , if not listed . there were not onely in england , but in ireland likewise , where arms and all other necessaries were provided , and whither great sums of money were returned to serve upon occasion . but one thing there is , my lord , that comes nearest mr. coleman ; as there were military officers named , so likewise the great civil places and offices of the kingdom were to be disposed of ; i will not nameto whom at this time , more than what is pertinent to the present business . this gentleman , such were his great abilities , the trust and reliance that his party had upon him , that no less an office would serve his turn than that of principal secretary of state ; and he had a commission , that came to him from the superiours of the jesuits , to enable him to execute that great office. my lord , it seems strange , that so great an office should be conferred by no greater a man than the superior of the jesuits . but if the pope can depose kings , and dispose of kingdoms , no wonder if the superior of the jesuits can , by a power delegated from him , make secretaries . it is not certain what the date of this commission was , nor the very time when he received it : but i believe he was so earnest and forward in this plot , that he began to execute his office long before he had his commission for it ; for i find by his letters , which are of a more early date , that he had proceeded so far as to treat with father ferrier , who was the french kings confessor , before he had actually received this commission . you will understand by the letters , which we shall produce , what he had to do with him , and what with the other confessor , that succeeded father le chese . there were two small matters they treated of , no less than the dissolving the parliament , and the extirpation of the protestant religion . nay , you will find , and you will hear enough , when the letters come to be read , that mr. coleman made many strokes at the parliament , he had no good opinion of them . and we cannot blame him ; for without all peradventure they had made , and i hope ever will , make strong resistance against such designs as these . but a great mind he had to be rid of them ; and he had hopes of great sums of money from abroad , if it had been to be done that way . and it is very remarkable ( and shews the vanity of the man ) he had such an opinion of the success of these negotiations , that he had penn'd a declaration prepared by him , and writ with his own hand , to be published in print , up on the dissolution of the parliament , to justifie that action with many specious and plausible reasons . as he did this without any direction , so he takes upon him to write a declaration , as in the name of the king , without the least shadow of any command to do it , so he prepares a letter also in the name of the duke ; and i would not affirm , unless i could prove it , and that from his own confession , ( being examined before the lords upon oath ) that he had no manner of authority from the duke to prepare such a letter ; and when it was written , and brought to the duke , it was rejected , and the writer justly blamed for his presumption . by this you will perceive the forwardness of this man. and you must of necessity take notice , that in his letters he took upon himself to manage affairs , as authorized by the greatest persons in the kingdom , yet without the least shadow of proof that he was by them impowered to do it . my lord , you shall find , mr. coleman thought himself above all ; and such was his own over-weening opinion of his wit and policy , that he thought himself the sole and supreme director of all the affairs of the catholicks . you will likewise perceive that he held intelligence with cardinal norfolk , with father sheldon , and the popes internuntio at brussels . and i cannot but observe out of the proofs , that as we shall find mr. coleman very ambitious and forward in all great affairs , so he had a little too much eye to the reward ; he looked too much asquint upon the matter of money : his great endeavours were not so much out of conscience , or out of zeal to his religion , as out of temporal interest ; to him gain was instead of godliness . and by his letters to the french confessor monsieur le chese , it will be proved , that he got much money from the catholicks here , and some from abroad , but still he wanted money . what to do ? ( i do not mean the greater sum of two hundred thousand pounds to procure the dissolution of the parliament , but some twenty thousand pounds onely ) to be expended by him in secret service . i do not know what account he would have given of it , if he had been intrusted with it . but that he earnestly thirsted after money , appeareth by most of his letters . my lord , you will observe , besides his intelligences , that he had with father le chese , and several others , one that deserves to be named , and that is his negotiation with sir william frogmorton , who was sent over into france , and there resided a long time to promote these designs . he is dead ; therefore i will not say so much of him , as i would say against him , if he was here to be tri'd . but , my lord , i find in his letters such treasonable , such impious expressions against the king , such undutiful characters of him , that no good subject would write , and no good subject would receive and conceal , as mr. coleman hath done . my lord , it may pass for a wonder , how we come to be masters of all these papers ; it has in part been told you already . there was an information given of the general design , nay of some of the particulars against the kings life . and without all peradventure , mr. coleman knew of this discovery ; and he knew that he had papers , that could speak too much , and he had time and opportunity enough to have made them away , and i make no question , but he did make many away . we are not able to prove the continuance of his correspondence , so as to make it clearly out ; but we suppose that continued until the day he was seized . and there is this to be proved , that letters came for him , though we cannot say any were delivered to him , after he was in prison . but without all peradventure , the man had too much to do , too many papers to conceal : then , you 'll say , he might have burnt them all , ( for many would burn as well as a few : ) but then he had lost much of the honour of a great states-man ; many a fine sentence , and many a deep intrigue had been lost to all posterity . i believe that we owe this discovery to something of mr. coleman's vanity ; he would not lose the glory of managing these important negotiations about so great a design : he thought 't was no small reputation to be intrusted with the secrets of forreign ministers . if this was not his reason , god ( i believe ) took away from him that clearness of judgment , and strength of memory , which he had upon other occasions . my lord , i shall no longer detain you from reading the papers themselves . but i cannot but account this kingdom happy , that these papers are preserved . for ( my lord ) we are to deal with a sort of men , that have that prodigious confidence , that their words and deeds ( though proved by never so unsuspected testimony ) they will still deny . but ( my lord ) no denial of this plot will prevail , for mr. coleman himself hath , with his own hand , recorded this conspiracy ; and we can prove his hand , not onely by his own servants , and relations , but by his own confession . so that ( my lord ) i doubt not , that if there be any of their own party that hear this trial , they themselves will be satisfi'd with the truth of these things . and i believe we have an advantage in this case , which they will not allow us , in another matter ; namely , that we shall be for this once permitted to believe our own senses . our evidence consisteth of two parts ; one is , witnesses viva voce , which we desire ( with the favour of the court ) to begin with ; and when that is done , we shall read several letters , or negotiations , in writing , and so submit the whole to your lordships direction . pris . i beg leave that a poor ignorant man , that is so heavily charged , that it seems a little unequal to consider the reason , why a prisoner , in such a case as this is , is not allowed counsel ; but your lordship is supposed to be counsel for him . but i think it very hard i cannot be admitted counsel ; and i humbly hope your lordship will not suffer me to be lost by things that my self cannot answer . i deny the conclusion , but the premisses are too strong and artificial . l. c. just . you cannot deny the premisses , but that you have done these things ; but you deny the conclusion that you are a traitor . pris . i can safely and honestly . l. c. just . you would make a better secretary of state , than a logician ; for they never deny the conclusion . pris . i grant it your lordship : you see the advantage great men have of me , that do not pretend to logick . l. c. just . the labour lies upon their hands ; the proof belongs to them to make out these intrigues of yours ; therefore you need not have counsel , because the proof must be plain upon you , and then it will be in vain to deny the conclusion . pris . i hope ( my lord ) if there be any point of law , that i am not skill'd in , that your lordship will be pleased not to take the advantage over me . another thing seems most dreadful , that is , the violent prejudices that seem to be against every man in england , that is confess'd to be a roman catholick . it is possible that a roman catholick may be very innocent of these crimes . if one of those innocent roman catholicks should come to this bar , he lies under such disadvantages already , and his prejudices so greatly byasseth humane nature , that unless your lordship will lean extremely much on the other side , justice will hardly stand upright , and lie upon a level . but to satisfie your lordship , i do not think it any service to destroy any of the kings subjects , unless it be in a very plain case . l. c. just . you need not make any preparations for us in this matter , you shall have a fair , just , and legal trial ; if condemned , it will be apparent you ought to be so ; and without a fair proof , there shall be no condemnation . therefore you shall find , we will not do to you , as you do to us , blow up at adventure , kill people because they are not of your perswasion ; our religion teacheth us another doctrine , and you shall find it clearly to your advantage . we seek no mans blood , but our own safety . but you are brought here from the necessity of things , which your selves have made ; and from your own actions you shall be condemned , or acquitted . pris . it is supposed upon evidence , that the examinations that have been of me in prison , are like to be evidence against me now ; i have nothing to say against it : but give me leave to say at this time , that when i was in prison , i was upon my ingenuity charged ; i promised i would confess all i knew . and i onely say this , that what i said in prison is true , and am ready at any time to swear and evidence , that that is all the truth . l. c. just . it is all true that you say : but did you tell all that vvas true ? pris . i know no more , than what i declared to the two houses . l. c. just . mr. coleman , i 'll tell you when you will be apt to gain credit in this matter : you say , that you told all things that you knew , the truth , and the whole truth . can mankind be persuaded , that you , that had this negotiation in . and . left off just then , at that time when your letters vvere found according to their dates ? do you believe , there was no negotiation after . because we have not found them ? have you spoke one vvord to that ? have you confessed , or produced those papers and weekly intelligence ? when you answer that , you may have credit ; vvithout that , it is impossible : for i cannot give credit to one word you say , unless you give an account of the subsequent negotiation . pris . after that time ( as i said to the house of commons ) i did give over corresponding . i did offer to take all oaths and tests in the world , that i never had one letter for at least two years ; yea , ( that i may keep my self within compass ) i think it was for three or four . now i have acknowledged to the house of commons , i have had a cursory correspondence , which i never regarded or valued ; but as the letters came , i burnt them , or made use of them as common paper . i say , that for the general correspondence i have had for two or three years , they have had every one of them letters , that i know of . attor . gen. whether you had or no , you shall have the fairest trial that can be . and we cannot blame the gentleman , for he is more used to greater affairs , than these matters or forms of lavv. but ( my lord ) i desire to go unto evidence , and vvhen that is done , he shall be heard , as long as he pleaseth , vvithout any interruption . if he desire it , before i give my evidence , let him have pen , ink , and paper ( vvith your lordships leave . ) l. c. just . help him to pen , ink , and paper . record . then we desire to go on in our evidence . we desire that mr. oates may not be interrupted . court. he shall not be interrupted . attorn . gen. the first thing we will inquire , what account he can give of the prisoner at the bar , whether he was any way privy to the murther of the king ? lord ch. just . mr. oates , we leave it to your self to take your own way , and your own method : only this we say , here 's a gentleman stands at the bar for his life ; and on the other side , the king is concerned for his life : you are to speak the truth and the whole truth ; for there is no reason in the world that you should adde any one thing that is false . i would not have a tittle added for any advantage , or consequences that may fall , when a man's bloud and life lieth at stake : let him be condemned by truth : you have taken an oath , and you being a minister , know the great regard you ought to have of the sacredness of an oath ; and that to take a man's life away by a false oath is murther , i need not teach you that . but that mr. coleman may be satisfied in the trial , and all people else be satisfied , there is nothing required or expected , but downright plain truth , and without any arts either to conceal , or expatiate , to make things larger then in truth they are ; he must be condemned by plain evidence of fact. mr. oates . my lord , mr. coleman in the month of november last , did entertain in his own house john keins , which john keins was a father confessor to certain persons that were converted , amongst which i was one . my lord , i went and visited this john keins at mr. coleman's house then in stable-yard . mr. coleman inquiring of john keins who i was ? he said , i was one that designed to go over upon business to st. omers . my lord , mr. coleman told me then he should trouble me with a letter or two to st. omers , but he told me he would leave them with one fenwick that was procurator for the society of jesuits in london . i went on monday morning and took coach , went to dover , and had his pacquet with me , which pacquet when i came to st. omers i opened . the out-side sheet of this paper was a letter of news which was called mr. coleman's letter , and at the bottome of this letter there was this recommendation , pray recommend me to my kinsman playford . in this letter of news there were expressions of the king , calling him tyrant , and that the marriage between the prince of orange and the lady mary the duke of york's eldest daughter would prove the traytour's and tyrant's ruine . lord ch. just . in what language was it written ? mr. oats . in plain english words at length . lord ch. just . directed to whom ? mr. oats . it was directed to the rectour of st. omers , to give him intelligence how affairs went in england . lord ch. just . did you break it open ? mr. oates i was at the opening of it , and saw it and read it . there was a letter to father lechees , which was superscribed by the same hand that the treasonable letter of news was written , and the same hand that the recommendation to playford was written in . when this letter was open there was a seal fixt , a flying seal and no mans name to it . lord ch. just . what was the contents of that letter to lechees ? mr. oates . my lord , to give you an account of the import of this letter , it was writ in latine , and in it there were thanks given to father lechees for the ten thousand pounds which was given for the propagation of the catholick religion , and that it should be imployed for no other intent and purpose but that for which it was sent , now that was to cut off the king of england ; those words were not in that letter , but lechees letter , to which this was an answer i saw and read : it was dated the month of august , and as near as i remember there was this instruction in it , that the ten thousand pound should be employed for no other intent and purpose but to cut off the king of england . i do not swear the words , but that 's the sense and substance , i believe i may swear the words . lord ch. just . to whom was that directed ? mr. oates . to one strange that was then provincial of the society in london , which mr. coleman answered . lord ch. just . how came mr. coleman to answer it ? mr. oates . strange having run a reed into his finger , had wounded his hand , and secretary mico was ill , so he got mr. coleman to write an answer unto it . lord ch. just . did he write it as from himself ? mr. oates . yes , by order of the provincial . lord ch. just . what was the substance of that answer ? mr. oates . that thanks was given to him in the name of the whole society for the ten thousand pound which was paid and received here , and that it should be employed to the intent for which it was received . it was superscribed from mr. coleman . lord ch. just . was it subscribed coleman ? mr. oates . it was not subscribed ; i did not see him write it , but i really believe it was by the same hand . i went and delivered this letter . lord ch. just . i understood you because of the accident of his hand he had employed mr. coleman to write this for him . mr. oates . he did write this letter then , the body of the letter was written by mr. coleman . i did not see him write it , but i shall give an account how i can prove he wrote it . i delivered this letter to lechees his own hand . when i opened the letter he asked me how a gentleman ( naming a french name ) did doe . lord ch. just . when you carried this letter , you carried it to lechees , and delivered it to him ; then he asked you of the gentleman of the french name , whom meant he by that name ? mr. oates . i understood it to be mr. coleman . lord ch. just . did he know him by some french name ? what said you ? mr. oates . i could say little to this . lord ch. just . could you guess whom he meant ? mr. oates . he told me he was sometime secretary to the dutchess of york , which i understood to be mr. coleman . i stuck at it , and when he said he was sometime secretary to the dutchess of york , i spoke in latine to him , and asked whether he meant mr. coleman , and his answer i cannot remember . he sends an answer to this letter . i brought it to st. omers , and there it was inclosed in the letter from the society to coleman ; wherein the society expresly told him this letter was delivered and acknowledged . i saw the letter at st. omers , and the letter was sent to him . mr. coleman did acknowledge the receit of this letter from lechees in the same hand with that of the news letter , and so it was understood by all , i saw it . lord ch. just . how came you to see it ? mr. oates . i by a patent from them was of the consult . lord ch. just . you saw the letter of the same hand which the news letter was of with mr. coleman's name subscribed ? mr. oates . the contents of the letter did own the letter from lechees was received ; this letter was presumed to be the hand-writing of mr. coleman , and it was understood to be mr. coleman's letter . lord ch. just . you say the letter was thanks for the ten thousand pound ; what was the other contents ? mr. oates . that all endeavours should be used to cut off the protestant religion root and branch . lord ch. just . you say you delivered this letter , from whom had you it ? mr. oates . from fenwick , it was left in his hand , and he accompanied me from groves to the coach , and gave it to me . lord ch. just . did you hear him speak to mr. coleman to write for him ? mr. oates . strange told me he had spoke to him . lord ch. just . he doth suppose it was mr. coleman's hand because it was just the same hand that the news letter was . are you sure the letter was of his hand ? mr. oates . it was taken for his hand . just . wild. had he such a kinsman there ? mr. oates . yes he hath confessed it . attorn . gen. we desire your lordship he may give an account of the consult here in may last , and how far mr. coleman was privy to the murthering of the king. mr. oates . in the month of april old-stile , in the month of may new-stile , there was a consult held , it was begun at the white horse tavern , it did not continue there . after that there they had consulted to send one father cary to be agent and procurator for rome , they did adjourn themselves to several clubs in companies ; some met at wild-house , and some at harcourt's lodging in dukes-street ; some met at ireland's lodging in russel-street ; and some in fenwick's lodging in drury-lane . they were ordered to meet by virtue of a brief from rome , sent by the father generall of the society : they went on to these resolves , that pickering and groves should go on and continue in attempting to assassinate the king's person by shooting , or other means . groves was to have fifteen hundred pounds . pickering being a religious man was to have thirty thousand masses , which at twelve pence a mass amounted much what to that money . this resolve of the jesuits was communicated to mr. coleman in my hearing at wild-house . my lord , this was not onely so , but in several letters he did mention it ; and in one letter ( i think i was gone a few miles out of london ) he sent to me by a messenger , and did desire the duke might be trappan'd into this plot to murther the king. lord. ch. just . how did he desire it ? mr. oates . in a letter , that all means should be used for the drawing in the duke . this letter was written to one ireland . i saw the letter and read it . lord ch. just . how do you know it was his letter ? mr. oates . because of the instructions , which i saw mr. coleman take a copy of and write , which was the same hand with the news letter , and what else i have mentioned , the subscription was , recommend me to father lechees , and it was the same hand whereof i now speak . lord ch. just . what was the substance of the letter ? mr. oates . nothing but complement , and recommendation , and that all means might be used for the trappanning the duke of york ( as near as i can remember that was the word . ) just . wild. you did say positively that mr. coleman did consent and agree to what was consulted by the jesuits , which was to kill the king , and pickering and groves were the two persons designed to do it . did you hear him consent to it ? mr. oates . i heard him say at wild-house , he thought it was well contrived . recor. do the gentlemen of the jury hear what he saith ? lord. ch. just . gentlemen of the jury , do you hear what he saith ? jury . yes . attorn . gen. what do you know of any rebellion to have been raised in ireland ? and what was to be done with the duke of ormond ? mr. oates . in the month of august there was a consult with the jesuites , and with the benedictine monks at the savoy . in this month of august there was a letter writ from arch-bishop talbot , the titular arch-bishop of dublin ; wherein he gave an account of a legate from the pope , an italian bishop , ( the bishop of cassay i think ) who asserted the pope's right to the kingdom of ireland . in this letter ( to mention in special ) there were four jesuits had contrived to dispatch the duke of ormond ( these were his words ) to find the most expedient way for his death , and fogarthy was to be sent to do it by poyson , if these four good fathers did not hit of their design . my lord , fogarthy was present . and when the consult was almost at a period , mr. coleman came to the savoy to the consult , and was mighty forward to have father fogarthy sent to ireland to dispatch the duke by poyson . this letter did specify they were there ready to rise in rebellion against the king for the pope . attorney generall . do you know any thing of arms ? mr. oates . there were black bills , i am not so skilfull in arms to know what they meant ( military men know what they are ) that were provided to be sent into ireland ; but they were ready for the use of the catholick party . lord ch. just . who were they provided by ? mr. oates . i do not know . lord ch. just . how do you know they were provided ? mr. oates . that letter doth not mention who they were provided by , but another letter mentioned they were provided by those that were commission officers for the aid and help of the pope ; the popish commissioners they were provided by , and they had them ready in ireland . lord ch. just . who wrote this letter ? mr. oates . it came from talbot , i might forget the day of the month because my information is so large , but it was the former part of the year , i think either january or february , ( ) ( ) last january or february . lord ch. just . was this consult but in august last ? mr. oates . i am forced to run back from that consult to this ; mr. coleman was privy , and was the main agent , and did in the month of august last past say to fenwick , he had found a way to transmit the li. for the carrying on of this rebellion in ireland . lord ch. just . did you hear him say so ? mr. oates . i did , a week before . lord ch. just . you say he was very forward to send fogarthy into ireland to kill the duke of ormond . mr. oates . yes that i say ; and that he had found a way to transmit li. to carry on the rebellion in ireland . court. who was by besides fenwick ? mr. oates . my self and no body else . court. where was it said ? mr. oates . in fenwick's chamber in drury-lane . attorn . gen. do you know any thing of transmitting the money to windsor , or perswading any to be sent thither , and the time when ? mr. oates . in the month of august there were four russians procured by dr. fogarthy . these four were not nominated in the consult with the benedictine convent , but ( my lord ) these four ruffians without names were accepted of by them . court. who proposed them ? mr. oates . fogarthy . these four irish men were sent that night to windsor . how they went i know not , but the next day there was a provision of li. ordered to them by the rector of london , which is a jesuite , one will. harcourt in the name of the provincial , because he acted in his name and authority , the provincial being then beyond the seas , visiting his colledges in flanders . lord ch. just . did he order the li. mr. oates . mr. coleman came to this harcourt's house , then lying in duke's - street , and harcourt was not within ; but he was directed to come to wild-house , and at wild-house he found harcourt . lord ch. just . how do you know that ? mr. oates . he said he had been at his house , and was not within , finding him at wild-house , he asked what care was taken for those four gentlemen that went last night to windsor ? he said there was li. ordered . lord ch. just . who said so ? mr. oates . harcourt . and there was the messenger that was to carry it , i think the most part of this li. was in guineys : mr. coleman gave the messenger a guiney to be nimble , and to expedite his journey . l. chief . just . how know you they were guinies ? mr. oates , i saw the money upon the table before harcourt , not in his hand . l. chief . just . were the four irish men there ? mr. oates , no , they were gone before i came . l. chief . just . who was to carry it after them , what was his name ? mr. oates , i never saw him before or since ; the money was upon the table : when mr. coleman came in , he gave the messenger a guiney to expedite the business . recorder , you say mr. coleman inquired what care was taken for those ruffians that were to assassinate the king ; pray , mr. oates , tell my lord and the jury what you can say concerning mr. colemans discourse with one ashby . mr. oates , in the moneth of july , one ashby , who was sometimes rector of st. omers , being ill of the gout was ordered to go to the bath ; this ashby being in london , mr. coleman came to attend him ; this ashby brought with him treasonable instructions in order to expedite the king by poison , provided pickering and groves did not do the work : ten thousand pound should be proposed to sir george wakeman to poison the king , in case pistol and stab did not take effect , and opportunity was to be taken at the kings taking physick . i could give other evidence but will not , because of other things which are not fit to be known yet . l. chief . just . who wrote this letter ? mr. oates , it was under the hand of white the provincial beyond the seas , whom ashby left ; it was in the name of memorials to impower ashby and the rest of the consulters at london to propound ten thousand pound to sir george wakeman to take the opportunity to poison the king. these instructions were seen and read by mr. coleman , by him copied out , and transmitted to several conspirators of the kings death , in this kingdom of england , that were privy to this plot. recorder , know you of any commission ? we have hitherto spoken altogether of the work of others ; now we come to his own work a little nearer . l. chief just . who saw mr. coleman read these instructions ? what said he ? mr. oates , he said he thought it was too little , i heard him say so . l. chief just . did you see him take a copy of these instructions ? mr. oates , yes , and he said he did believe sir george wakeman would scarce take it , and thought it necessary the other five thousand pound should be added to it , that they might be sure to have it done . l. chief just . where was it he said this ? mr. oates , it was in the provincials chamber , which ashby had taken for his convenience at london , until he went down to the bath , it was at wild-house , at mr. sandersons house . l. chief just . ashby was imployed by his instructions to acquaint the consult of the jesuits , that there should be ten thousand pound advanced , if doctor wakeman would poison the king , now asbby comes and acquaints him with it . why should coleman take copies ? mr. oates , because he was to send copies to several conspirators in the kingdom of england . l. chief just . to what purpose should mr. coleman take a copy of these instructions ? mr. oates , the reason is plain , they were then a gathering a contribution about the kingdom , and these instructions were sent that they might be incouraged , because they saw there was incouragement from beyond seas to assist them . and another reason was , because now they were assured by this their business would quickly be dispatched , and by this means some thousands of pounds were gathered in the kingdom of england . l. chief just . to whom was mr. coleman to send them ? mr. oates , i know not any of the persons , but mr. coleman did say he had sent his suffrages ( which was a canting word for instructions ) to the principal gentry of the catholicks of the kingdom of england . l. chief just . how know you this , that mr. coleman did take a copy of these instructions for that purpose as you say ? mr. oates , because he said so . l. chief just . did any body ask him why he took them ? mr. oates , saith ashby , you had best make haste and communicate these things . mr. coleman answered , i will make haste with my copies , that i may dispatch them away this night ? recorder , was he not to be one of the principal secretaries of state ? . mr. oates , in the month of may last new stile , april the old stile , i think within a day after our consult , i was at mr. langhorn's chamber , he had several commissions , which he called patents : among his commissions i saw one from the general of the society of jesus , joannes paulus d'ol●●a , by vertue of a brief from the pope by whom he was enabled . l. chief just . did you know his hand ? mr. oates , i believe i have seen it forty times , i have seen forty things under his hand , and this agreed with them , but i never did see him write in my life , we all took it to be his hand , and we all knew the hand and seal . l. chief just . what inscription was upon the seal ? mr. oates , Ι.Η. Σ. with a cross , in english it had the characters of i. h. s. this commission to mr. coleman in the month of july , i saw in fenwicks presence , and at his chamber in drury-lane , where then mr. coleman did acknowledge the receipt of this patent , opened it and said ▪ it was a very good exchange . l. chief just . what was the commission for ? mr. oates , it was to be secretary of state. i saw the commission , and heard him own the receipt of it . just . wild , what other commissions were there at mr. langhorns chamber ? mr. oates , a great many , i cannot remember , there was a commission for my lord arundel of warder , the lord powis , and several other persons . but this belongs not to the prisoner at the bar : i mention his commission . l. chief just . were you acquainted with mr. langhorn ? mr. oates , yes , i 'le tell your lordship how i was acquainted . i was in spain , he had there two sons ; to shew them special favour and kindness ( being meer strangers at the colledge ) i did use to transmit some letters for them to the kingdom of england in my pacquet . when i came out of spain , i did receive recommendations from them to their father , and in great civility he received me . this was in november that i came to his house . he lived in shear-lane or thereabouts . i understood that his wife was a zealous protestant ; therefore he desired me not to come any more to his house , but for the future to come to his chamber in the temple . l. chief . just . had you ever seen mr. langhorn in london before ? mr. oates , i never saw him till nov. ( . ) to my knowledge . i was several times in his company at his chamber , and he brought me there to shew me some kindness upon the account of his sons . it was at the temple , for his wife being a protestant was not willing any jesuits should come to the house . i was to carry him a summary of all the results and particulars of the consult at the white horse and wild house . the provincial ordered me to do it , he knowing me , being in that affair often imployed . l. chief just . was it the second time you saw him that you saw the commissions ? mr. oates , i saw him several times in the month of november . l. chief just . when did you see the commissions ? mr. oates , in the month of april old stile , may new stile . l. chief just . how came he to shew you the commissions ? mr. oates , i hearing of their being come , had a curiosity to see them , and he knew me to be privy to the concerns . l. chief just . how did you know he had the commissions ? mr. oates , by letters . l. chief just . from whom ? mr. oates , from those of the society at rome , wherein one harcourt one of the fathers was certified , that the commissions were come to langhorn , and were in his hand , i saw the letters at st. omers before they came to harcourt , we read the letters there before they came to england , i had power to open them . l. chief just . did you open the letters ? mr. oates , yes ? l. chief just . when saw you the letters at st. omers ? mr. oates , i saw the letters at st. omers in the month of january ; then they came from rome ; and after i received summons to be at this consult in the month of april ; and accordingly we came over . l. chief just . vvhat time did you come over ? mr. oates , in the month of april . l. chief just . vvhat time went you to langhorns chamber ? i cannot reconcile the months together . just . dolben . did you not say you came to langhorn in november ? mr. oates . yes , before i went to st. omers . just . wild. how many came over with you ? mr. oates . i cannot tell how many came over together ; there were nine of us all jesuits . l. chief just . did not you say you went to langhorn in november ? mr. oates , that was before i went to st. omers . attorn . gen. tell how many priests or jesuits were lately in england , that you know of , at one time ? mr. oates . there was , and have been to my knowledge in the kingdom of england , secular priests eightscore , and jesuits fourscore , and by name in the catalogue , i think three hundred and odd . l. chief just . how long had you been in england before you were at mr. langhorn's chamber ? mr. oates . not long ; because i had letters in my pacquet from his sons , assoon as i had rested a little , i went to him . l. chief just . what said mr. langhorn to you about the commissions in his chamber ? mr. oats . not a word ; but seem'd glad . l. chief just . did you see them open upon his table ? or did you ask to see them ? mr. oates . they did not lye open upon the table , but the commissions were before him ; i asked to see them . mr. langhorn ( said i ) i hear you have received the commissions from rome ; he said , he had . shall i have the honour to see some of them ? he said , i might ; he thought he might trust me ; and so he might , because that very day i gave him an account of the consult . l. chief just . when was it you gave him an account of the consult ? mr. oates . in the morning . l. chief just . you say you were twice there that day . mr. oates . i was there the whole forenoon . l. chief just . that day you saw the commissions . mr. oates . i had been there several times the same day , and meeting him at last , he asked me how often i was there before , i said said twice or thrice ; but that day was the last time ever i saw him ; i have not seen him since to my knowledge . l. chief just . was that the first time that you saw him after you came from spain ? mr. oates . i saw him thrice in november , then i went to st. omers , the first time i saw him after i came from thence i saw the commissions . attorn . gen. what were the names of those men that came over from st. omers besides your self ? mr. oates . as near as i can remember , the rector of liege was one ; father warren ; sir thomas preston ; the rector of watton ; one francis williams ; sir john warner baronet ; one father charges ; one pool , a monk ; i think i made the ninth . attorn . gen. if the prisoner at the bar be minded , he may ask him any question . prisoner , i am mighty glad to see that gentleman sir thomas dolman in the court , for i think he was upon my examination before the councel , and this man that gives now in evidence against me , there told the king , he never saw me before ; and he is extreamly well acquainted with me now , and hath a world of intimacy . mr. oates at that time gave such an account of my concern in this matter , that i had orders to go to newgate , i never saw mr. oates since i was born , but at that time . l. chief just . you shall have as fair a search , and examination in this matter for your life as can be , therefore mr. oates answer to what mr. coleman saith . mr. oates . my lord , when mr. coleman was upon his examination before the council-board , he saith , i said there that i never saw him before in my life : i then said i would not swear that i had seen him before in my life , because my sight was bad by candle-light , and candle-light alters the sight much , but when i heard him speak i could have sworn it was he , but it was not then my business . i cannot see a great way by candle-light . l. chief . just . the stress of the objection lyeth not upon seeing so much , but how come you that you laid no more to mr. coleman's charge at that time ? mr. oates . i did design to lay no more to his charge then , than was matter for information . for prisoners may supplant evidence when they know it , and bring persons to such circumstances , as time , and place . my lord , i was not bound to give in more than a general information against mr. coleman ; mr. coleman did deny he had correspondence with father le chese at any time , i did then say he had given him an account of several transactions . and ( my lord ) then was i so weak , being up two nights , and having been taking prisoners , upon my salvation , i could scarce stand upon my legs . l. chief just . what was the information you gave at that time to the council against mr. coleman ? mr. oates . the information i gave at that time ( as near as i can remember , but i would not trust to my memory ) was for writing of news-letters , in which i did then excuse the treasonable reflexions , and called them base reflexions at the council-board ; the king was sensible , and so was the council . i was so wearied and tyred ( being all that afternoon before the council , and sunday night , and sitting up night after night ) that the king was willing to discharge me . but if i had been urged , i should have made a larger information . l. chief just . the thing you accused him of was his own letter . pris . he doth not believe it was my letter . l. c. just . you here charge mr. coleman to be the man that gave a guinny to expedite the business at windsor , &c. at the time when you were examined at the council-table , you gave a particular account of attempting to take away the kings life at windsor , and raising twenty thousand pounds and all those great transactions ; why did you not charge mr. coleman to be the man that gave the guinny to the messenger to expedite the business , when the pounds was sent ? that he found out a way of transmitting pounds to carry on the design ? he consulted the killing the king , and approved of it very well . and of the instructions for pounds , and said it was too little for to poyson the king . when you were to give an account to the council of the particular contrivance of the murther of the king at windsor , with a reward , you did mention one reward of pounds to dr. wakeman , and would you omit the guinny to expedite the messenger , and that he said that l . was too little ; would you omit all this ? mr. oates . i being so tyred and weak that i was not able to stand upon my legs , and i remember the council apprehended me to be so weak that one of the lords of the council said , that if there were any occasion further to examine mr. coleman , that mr. oates should be ready again , and bid me retire . l. c. just . you was by when the council were ready to let mr. coleman go almost at large . mr. oates . no ; i never apprehended that , for if i did , i should have given a further account . l. c. just . what was done to mr. coleman at that time ? was he sent away prisoner ? mr. oates . yes , at that time to the messengers house , and within two dayes after he was sent to newgate , and his papers were seized . l. c. just . why did you not name coleman at that time ? mr. oates . because i had spent a great deal of time in accusing other jesuites . just . wild. what time was there betwixt the first time you were at the council before you told of this matter concerning the king ? mr. oates . when i was first at the board ( which was on saturday night ) i made information , which began between six and seven , and lasted almost to ten . i did then give a general account of the affairs to the council without the king. then i went and took prisoners , and before sunday night , i said , i thought if mr. colemans papers were searched into , they would find matter enough against him in those papers to hang him ; i spake those words , or words to the like purpose . after that mr. colemans papers were searched , mr. coleman was not to be found ; but he surrendred himself the next day . so that on sunday i was commanded to give his majesty a general information , as i had given to the council on saturday ; and the next day again , i took prisoners that night five , and next night four . just . wild. how long was it betwixt the time that you were examined , and spoke only as to the letters , to that time you told to the king & council or both of them , concerning this matter you swear now ? mr. oates . my lord , i never told it to the king and council , but i told it to the houses of parliament . l. chief just . how long was it between the one and the other ? mr. oates . i cannot tell exactly the time ; it was when the parliament first sate . l. c. j. how came you ( mr. coleman being so desperate a man as he was ; endeavouring the killing of the king ) to omit your information of it to the council and to the king at both times ? mr. oats . i spoke little of the persons till the persons came face to face . l. chief just . why did you not accuse all thosse jesuits by name ? m. oates . we took a catalogue of their names , but those i did accuse positively and expresly we took up . l. chief just . did you not accuse sir george wakeman by name , and that he accepted his reward ? mr. oates . yes , then i did accuse him by name . l. chief just . why did you not accuse mr. coleman by name ? mr. oates . for want of memory ; being disturbed and wearied in sitting up two nights , i could not give that good account of mr. coleman which i did afterwards , when i consulted my papers ; and when i saw mr. coleman was secured , i had no need to give a farther account . l. chief just . how long was it between the first charging mr. coleman , and your acquainting the parliament with it ? mr. oats . from monday the th of september , until the parliament sate . l. chief just . mr. coleman , will you ask him any thing ? prisoner . pray ask mr. oats , whether he was not as near to me as this gentleman is , because he speaks of his eyes being bad ? mr. oats . i had the disadvantage of a candle upon my eyes ; mr. coleman stood more in the dark . prisoner . he names several times that he met with me in this place and that place , a third and fourth place about business . mr. oats . he was altered much by his perriwig in several meetings , and had several perriwiggs , and a perriwigg doth disguise a man very much ; but when i heard him speak , then i knew him to be mr. coleman . l. chief just . did you hear him speak ? how were the questions asked ? were they thus ? was that the person ? or , how often had you seen mr. coleman ? mr. oats . when the question was asked by my lord chancellour , mr. coleman , when were you last in france ? he said at such a time . did you see father le chese ? he said he gave him an accidental visit , my lord chancellor asked him whether or no he had a pass ? he said , no. then he told him , that was a fault for going out of the kingdom without a pass . have you a kinsman whose name is playford at s. omers ? he said he had one ten years old , ( who is in truth sixteen ) that question i desired might be asked . then the king bade me go on . l. ch. just did the king , or council , or lord chancellor ask you whether you knew mr. coleman , or no ? mr. oats . they did not ask me . l. ch. just . mr. oats , answer the question in short , and without confounding it with length . were you demanded if you knew m. coleman ? mr. oats . not to my knowledge . l. ch. just . did you ever see him ? or how often ? pris . he said , he did not know me . l. ch. just . you seemed , when i asked you before , to admit , as if you had been asked this question , how often you had seen him , and gave me no answer , because you were doubtful whether it was the man , by reason of the inconveniency of the light , and your bad fight . mr. oats . i must leave it to the king what answer i made mr. coleman , he wonders i should give an account of so many intimacies , when i said i did not know him at the council table . pris . it is very strange mr. oats should swear now , that he was so well acquainted with me , and had been so often in my company ; when upon his accusation at the council-table , he said nothing of me more than the sending of one letter , which he thought was my hand . mr. oats . i did not say that . pris . and he did seem to say there , he never saw me before in his life . l. ch. just . was he asked whether he was acquainted with you ? ( for those words are to the same purpose ) . pris . i cannot answer directly , i do not say he was asked if he was acquainted with me , but i say this , that he did declare he did not know me . l. ch. just . can you prove that ? pris . i appeal to sir tho. dolman , who is ●ow in court , and was then present at the council-table . l. ch. just . sir thomas , you are not upon your oath , but are to speak on the behalf of the prisoner : what did he say ? sir tho. dolman . that he did not well know him . l. ch. just . did he add , that he did not well know him by the candle light ? but mr. oats , when you heard his voice , you said you knew him ; why did you not come then , and say you did well know him ? mr. oats . because i was not asked . l. ch. just . but , sir thomas , did he say he did not well know him after m. coleman spake ? was mr. coleman examined before mr. oats spake ? sir tho. doleman . yes . l. ch. just . mr. oats , you say you were with him at the savoy and wild-house , pray , sir thomas , did he say he did not know him , or had seen mr. coleman there ? sir tho. dolman . he did not know him as he stood there . l. ch. just . knowing , or not knowing is not the present question ; but did he make an answer to the knowing , or not knowing him ? just . dolben . did he say he did not well know mr. coleman , or that he did not well know that man ? sir tho. dolman he said he had no acquaintance with that man ( to the best of my remembrance . ) l. ch. just . sir robert southwell , you were present at mr. oats his examination before the council ; in what manner did he accuse mr. coleman then ? sir robert southwell . the question is so particular , i cannot give the court satisfaction ; but other material things then said are now omitted by mr. oats ; for he did declare against sir george wakeman , that five thousand pounds was added , in all fifteen thousand pounds , and that mr. coleman paid five of the fifteen to sir george in hand . l. ch. just . this answers much of the objection upon him . the court has asked mr. oats how he should come now to charge you with all these matters of poysoning and killing the king , and yet he mentioned you so slightly at the council-table ; but it is said by sir robert southwell he did charge you with five thousand pounds ( for poisoning the king ) to be added to the ten thousand pounds , and he charged you expresly with it at the council table . pris . the charge was so slight against me by mr. oats , that the council were not of his opinion : for the first order was to go to newgate , and sir robert southwell came with directions to the messenger not to execute the order . i humbly ask whether it was a reasonable thing to conceive that the council should extenuate the punishment , if mr. oats came with such an amazing account to the council , sir rob. south . mr. oats gave so large and general an information to the council , that it could not easily be fixed . mr. coleman came voluntarily in upon monday morning . the warrant was sent out on sunday night for mr. coleman and his papers : his papers were found and seized ; but mr. coleman was not found at that time , nor all night , but came on monday morning voluntarily , and offered himself at sir joseph williamson's house , hearing there was a warrant against him : by reason of so many prisoners that were then under examination , he was not heard till the afternoon , and then he did with great indignation and contempt hear these vile things , as thinking himself innocent . pris . if i thought my self guilty , i should have charged my self : i hope his majesty upon what hath been said , will be so far satisfied as to discharge me . sir rob. south . mr. coleman then made so good a discourse for himself , that though the lords had filled up a blank warrant to send him to newgate , that was respited , and he was only committed to a messenger . i did say to the messenger , be very civil to mr. coleman for things are under examination , but you must keep him safely . saith the messenger , pray let me have a special warrant , that doth dispence with the warrant i had to carry him to newgate , and such a warrant he had . the king went away on tuesday morning to newmarket , and appointed a particular committee to examine the papers brought of mr. coleman and others . his papers were found in a deal box , and several of these papers and declarations sounded so strangely to the lords , that they were amazed ; and presently they signed a warrant for mr. coleman's going to newgate . l. ch. just . did mr. oats give a round charge against mr. coleman ? sir rob. south . he had a great deal to do , he was to repeat in the afternoon on sunday when the king was present , all he had said to the lords on saturday . he did say of mr. coleman , that he had corresponded very wickedly and basely with the french king's confessor , and did believe if mr. coleman's papers were searched , there would be found in them that which would cost him his neck . and did declare that the fifteen thousand pounds was accepted for the murther of the king , and that five thousand pounds was actually paid by mr. coleman to sir george wakeman . but mr. oats at the same time did also declare that he did not see the mony paid , he did not see this particular action of sir george wakeman , because at that time he had the stone and could not be present . mr. oats . i was not present at that consult , where the fifteen thousand pounds was accepted ; but i had an account of it from those that were present . l. ch. just . it appears plainly by this testimony , that he did charge you mr. coleman home , that fifteen thousand pounds was to be paid for poysoning the king ; and that it was generally said among them ( though he did not see it paid ) that it came by your hands , viz. five thousand pounds of it , which answers your objection as if he had not charged you , when you see he did charge you home then for being one of the conspirators , in having a hand in paying of 〈◊〉 for poysoning the king : he charges you now no otherwise than in that manner : he doth not charge you no● as if there were new things started , but with the very conspiracy of having a hand in paying the money for murthering the king. what consultation was that you had at the savoy , in the month of august ? mr. oats . it was about the business of the four irish ruffians proposed to the consult . the end of mr. oats's examination . mr. bedlow . sollicit . gen. we call him to give an account what he knows of the prisoners being privy to the conspiracy of murthering the king , ( particularly to that ) mr. bedlow , pray acquaint my lord and the jury what you know , i desire to know particularly as it concerns mr. coleman , and nothing but mr. coleman . l. ch. just . mr. attorney pray keep to that question close . attorn . gen. i have two short questions to ask him : the first is what he hath seen or heard touching any commission to mr. coleman , what say you ? mr. bedlow . in particular i know not of any commission directed to mr. coleman , i do not know any thing of it but what sir henry tichbourn told me , that he had a commission ; and he brought a commission for mr. coleman and the rest of the lords , from the principal jesuites at rome , by order of the pope . attorn . gen. a commission for what ? mr. bedlow . to be principal secretary of state : the title of it i do not know because i did not see it , but to be principal secretary of state , that was the effect . attorn . gen. i desire to know what discourse you had with mr. coleman about that design . mr. bedlow . if your lordship please , i shall be short in the narrative . l. ch. just . make use of your notes to help your memory , but let not your testimony be merely to read them . mr. bedlow . i carried over to monsieur le chese ( the french kings confessor ) a large packet of letters , april ( ) from mr. coleman , which letters i saw mr. coleman deliver to father harcourt , at his house in dukes-street . council . and harcourt gave them to you ? mr. bedlow . yes ; which letters were directed to be delivered to monsieur le chese , and i did carry them to le chese , and brought him an answer from le chese , and other english monks at paris ? i did not understand what was in it , because it was a language i do not well understand , it was about carrying on the plot ; at a consultation there were present two french abbots and several english monks at paris ; what i heard them say , was about carrying on the plot to subvert the government of england , to destroy the king and the lords of the council . the king was principally to be destroyed , and the government subverted as well as the protestant religion . court. when was this ? when you were to receive the answer ? mr. bedlow . it was upon the consultation : there was a packet of letters from mr. coleman , they did not know i understood french , or if they did , they had tryed me so long i believe they would have trusted me . l. ch. just . the letter that le chese wrote , to whom was it directed ? mr. bedlow . it was directed to mr. coleman , the packet was directed to harcourt , and within that le chese wrote an answer and directed it to mr. coleman , particularly to mr. coleman . l. ch. just . how do you know ? mr. bedlow . the superscription was this [ in french ] a monsieur monsieur coleman ; to mr. coleman , with other letters directed to father harcourt . l. ch. just . he saith plainly the letter was yours , you gave harcourt a packet of letters to be delivered to le chese , harcourt delivered them to him , and he did carry them to le chese , and heard them talk about this plot : that le chese wrote a letter to you ( particularly by name ) inclosed in a letter to harcourt , that answer he brought back . recorder . do you know any thing concerning any money mr. coleman said he had received ? the sums , and for what ? mr. bedlow . it was to carry on the design to subvert the government of england , to free england from damnation and ignorance , and free all catholieks from hard tyranny and oppression of hereticks . attorn . gener. what words did you hear mr. coleman express , what he would do for the catholick cause ? mr. bedlow . may , or , ( ) i was at mr. coleman's with mr. harcourt , and received another packet from mr. harcourt , and he had it from mr. coleman . l. ch. just . you say mr. coleman did give this packet to harcourt ? mr. bedlow . yes , and harcourt delivered it to me to carry it to paris to the english monks . i was to go by doway to see if they were not gone to paris before me . l. ch. just . and what did they say when you delivered the letters to the english monks ? mr. bedlow . they told me how much reward i deserved from the pope and the church , both here , and in the world to come . i overtook three , and that night i went to paris with them ; and upon the consultation ( ) i believe they sent the bishop of tornes the substance of those letters , and not having a final answer what assistance the catholick party in england might expect from them , they were resolved to neglect their design no longer than that summer , having all things ready to begin in england . recorder . what did you hear mr. coleman say ? mr. bedlow . that he would adventure any thing to bring in the popish religion : after the consultation , i delivered the letters to le faire , and he brought them to harcourt , he delivered the packet of letters to harcourt , who was not well , but yet went and delivered them to mr. coleman , and i went as far as mr. coleman's house , but did not go in , but stayed over the way ; but harcourt went in , and after he had spoke with mr. coleman , he gave me a beck to come to him ; and i heard mr. coleman say , if he had a hundred lives , and a sea of blood to carry on the cause , he would spend it all to further the cause of the church of rome , and to establish the church of rome in england : and if there was an hundred heretical kings to be deposed , he would see them all destroyed . l. ch. just . where was this ? mr. bedlow . at his own house . l. ch. just . where ? mr. bedlow . behind westminster abby . l. ch. just . in what room ? mr. bedlow . at the foot of the stair-case . l. ch. just . where were you then ? mr. bedlow . there , i was called in by harcourt , and was as near to him , as to my lord duras . ( my lord being hard by mr. bedlow in court. ) pris . did i ever see you in my life ? mr. bedlow . you may ask that question ; but in the stone-gallery in somerset-house , when you came from a consult , where were great persons , which i am not to name here ; that would make the bottom of your plot tremble : you saw me then . attorn . gener. we did before acquaint you with something of the substance of the letters ; we shall now acquaint you with something of the manner of finding them . your lordship hath heard mr. oats hath been examined before the council , and there it was said . mr. coleman's papers would make such a discovery ( if they were looked into ) as would be enough to hang him . i remember he said the lords of the council were pleased to order the papers to be seised ; the execution of their warrant they committed to one bradly , who was a messenger that attended the king and council ; and i desire he may be called : he did find and seise as many papers as mr. coleman was pleased to leave , and they are those papers which we now bring before you . the papers seised he put up in a deal box , and four or five several bags , and brings them to the council ; the clerks of the council are here attending the court : they will tell you these papers now produced were papers found in those bags : mr. bradly will tell you the papers seised in the bags and box were brought to them , and they will swear they were the papers and bags that were brought . record . mr. bradly , give my lord and the jury an account whether you went to mr. coleman , whether you seized his papers , and what papers you saw , and how you disposed of them after they were seiz'd . mr. bradly . the th . of september being sunday evening at six of the clock , i received a warrant from the council-board to apprehend mr. coleman , and to seize his papers , and to bring them to the council-board : he being not at home , i spoke with his wife , and told her i came to search her house , i had a warrant so to do , she told me i was welcom ; i dedesir'd her to send for her husband : i found in several parts of the house a great many papers ; i put them up in several bags : i found some in a private corner in a deal box. l. ch. just . what kind of corner ? mr. bradly . in mr. coleman's chamber , not in his own study , but in another place behind the chimney ; the box was tack'd together with a nail : i lifted it up ; and saw they were letters , i put it down again as it was , and gave it into the custody of one that was with me , to look to it : then i came to his own study where his ' scritore was , and put up all i could find in several baggs , and sealed them , and brought them to the council-chamber . attorn . gen. did you put up any other papers among them then what you found at mr. coleman's house ? mr. bradly . i did not , ( upon my oath , ) i had them all at mr. coleman's house . attorn . general . did you bring them all to the clerks of the council ? mr. bradly . yes , before i came out i tyed them all up , and sealed them with my own seal , and was constantly with them . at. gen. now we will give your lordship an account how these things were received , that were there found . sir robert southwell , look upon the large letter , and tell my lord and the jury whether that were among the papers brought by this messenger . sir robert southwel . my lord , i did not see this letter in several days after the papers brought me from bradly ; when he came in with three great baggs , and a box of letters on sunday night ; said i , which are mr. coleman's principal papers ? said he , those that are in the large speckled cloath bagg ; for these we took first in the scritore : these i took , and meddled not with the other , i presume other clerks of the council can give a particular account where this paper was found . at. gen. sir thomas doleman , look upon the letter whether you can remember any thing of it . sir th. doleman . i remember i found it in a deal box among mr. coleman's papers , those that bradly brought . court. that 's plain enough . at. gen. that we may not often prove what we shall often make use of , i would prove it fully once for all , that all these papers were of his hand-writing ; this we can prove by two sorts of evidences ; his own confession , and the witness of two persons ; one that was his servant ; and th' other a sub-secretary , that did write very many things for him . mr. boatman , look upon these papers ; tell my lord and the jury whose hand it is : are you acquainted with mr. coleman's hand ? what relation had you to him ? boatman . i was his gentleman that waited on him in his chamber five years : this is very like his hand . lord ch. just . do you believe it is his hand ? boatman . i believe it is . lord ch. just . little proof will serve the turn , because they were taken in his possession . at. gen. i desire to prove it fully ; look upon all the papers , turn all the leaves , see if they be not all one hand , and whether you believe all to be mr. coleman's hand writing or not . boatman . i believe it to be all his hand . lord ch. just . do you know when the last packet of letters came up , that were sent to mr. coleman , from beyond the seas ? boatman . two or three dayes after he was taken prisoner . lord ch. just . do you know where they are bestowed ? did you receive monsieur le chese's letters for mr. coleman ? boatman . yes . lord ch. just . did you ever write any for him to le chese ? boatman . no. at. gen. inform the court whether he kept any book to make entry of letters he sent or received ? boatman . yes , there was a large book my master did enter his letters in , and his news . at. gen. what is become of that book ? boatman . i know not . at. gen. when did you see that book last upon your oath ? boatman . on saturday . at. gen. how long before he was sent to prison ? boat. two days , because the next day was sunday , which he did not make use of it : on monday my master was in prison , and i did not mind the book . l. ch. just . were there any entries of letters in that book within two years last past ? boatman . i cannot be positive . at. gen. did he not usually write and receive letters from beyond sea ? till that time had he not negotiation as usually ? boatman . he had usually news every post from beyond the seas . prisoner . there 's letters from the hague , brussels , france and rome ; they are all with the council , which were all the letters i received . att. gen. we have another witness : cattaway , are you acquainted with coleman's hand-writing ? do you believe it to be his hand-writing ? witness . i believe it is , they are his hand-writing . att. gen. it will appear , if there were no other proof in this cause , his own papers are as good as an hundred witnesses to condemn him ; therefore i desire to prove them fully by his own confession . sir phil. lloyd a witness . these are the papers i received from sir thomas doleman ; i found them ( as he saith , ) in a deal box : among his papers i found this letter . mr. coleman hath owned this was his hand-writing ▪ it 's all one letter . att. gen. 't is all the same hand , and he acknowledged it to be his . mr. recorder . i desire mr. astrey may read it so that the jury may hear it . mr. astrey clerk of the crown reads the letter . the th . of september ( . ) it is subscribed thus ; your most humble and most obedient servant , but no name . mr. colemans long letter . since father st. german has been so kind to me , as to recommend me to your reverence so advantagiously , as to encourage you to accept of my correspondency ; i will own to him , that he has done me a favour without consulting me , greater than i could have been capable of if he had advised with me ; because i could not then have had the confidence to have permitted him to ask it on my behalf . and i am so sensible of the honour you are pleased to do me , that though i cannot deserve it ; yet to shew at least the sense i have of it , i will deal as freely and openly with you this first time , as if i had had the honour of your acquaintance all my life ; and shall make no apology for so doing , but only tell you that i know your character perfectly well , though i am not so happy as to know your person ; and that i have an opportunity of putting this letter into the hands of father st. german ●s nephew ( for whose integrity and prudence he has undertaken ) without any sort of hazard . in order then sir to the plainness i profess , i will tell you what has formerly passed between your reverence's predecessor , father ferryer and my self . about three years ago , when the king my master sent a troop of horse guards into his most christian majesties service , under the command of my lord durass ; he sent with it an officer called sir william throckmorton , with whom i had a particular intimacy , and who had then very newly embrac'd the catholick religion : to him did i constantly write , and by him address my self to father ferryer . the first thing of great importance i presumed to offer him ( not to trouble you with lesser matters , or what passed here before , and immediatly after the fatal revocation of the kings declaration for liberty of conscience , ( to which we owe all our miseries and hazards , ) was in july , august , and september . when i constantly inculcated the great danger catholick religion , and his most christian majesties interest would be in at our next sessions of parliament , which was then to be in october following ; at which i plainly foresaw that the king my master would be forced to something in prejudice to his allyance with france , which i saw so evidently and particularly that we should make peace with holland , that i urg'd all the arguments i could , which to me were demonstrations , to convince your court of that mischief ; and press'd all i could to perswade his most christian majesty to use his utmost endeavour to prevent that session of our parliament , and proposed expedients how to do it : but i was answered so often and so positively , that his most christian majesty was so vvell assured by his embassador here , our embassador there , the lord arlington , and even the king himself ; that he had no such apprehensions at all , but vvas fully satisfied of the contrary , and lookt upon what i offered as a very zealous mistake , that i was forced to give over arguing , though not believing as i did ; but confidently appealed to time and success to prove who took their measures rightest . when it happened what i foresaw came to pass , the good father was a little surprized , to see all the great men mistaken , and a little one in the right ; and was pleased by sir william throckmorton to desire the continuance of my correspondence , which i was mighty willing to comply with , knowing the interest of our king , and in a more particular manner of my more immediate master the duke , and his most christian majesty , to be so inseparably united , that it was impossible to divide them , without destroying them all : upon this i shewed that our parliament in the circumstances it was managed , by the timerous councels of our ministers , who then governed , would never be useful either to england , france , or catholick religion , but that we should as certainly be forced from our neutrality at their next meeting , as we had been from our active alliance with france the last year : that a peace in the circumstances we were in , was much more to be desired then the continuance of the war ; and that the dissolution of our parliament would certainly procure a peace ; for that the confederates did more depend upon the power they had in our parliament , then upon any thing else in the world ; and were more encouraged from them to the continuing of the war ; so that if they were dissolved , their measures would be all broken , and they consequently in a manner necessitated to a peace . the good father minding this discourse somewhat more then the court of france thought fit to do my former ; urg'd it so home to the king , that his majesty was pleased to give him orders to signify to his r. h. my master , that his majesty vvas fully satisfyed of his r. h s. good intention tovvards him , and that he esteemed both their interests but as one and the same ; that my lord arlington and the parliament were both to be lookt upon as very unuseful to their interest : that if his r. h. would endeavour to dissolve this parliament , his most christian majesty would assist him with his povver and purse , to have a nevv one as should be for their purpose . this , and a great many more expressions of kindness and confidence father ferryer was pleased to communicate to sir william throckmorton , and commanded them to send them to his r. h. and withall to beg his r. h. to propose to his most christian majesty , what he thought necessary for his own concern , and the advantage of religion , and his majesty would certainly do all he could to advance both or either of them . this sir william throckmorton sent to me by an express , who left paris the d of june stilo novo : i no sooner had it , but i communicated it to his r. h. to which his r. h. commanded me to answer , as i did on the th . of the same month : that his r. h. was very sensible of his most christian majesties friendship , and that he would labour to cultivate it with all the good offices he was capable of doing for his majesty ; that he was fully convinced that their interests were both one that my lord arlington and the parliament vvere not only unuseful , but very dangerous both to england and france ; that therefore it was necessary that they should do all they could to dissolve it . and that his r. h's . opinion was , that if his most christian majesty would write his thoughts freely to the king of england upon this subject , and make the same proffer to his majesty of his purse to dissolve this parliament , which he had made to his r h. to call another , he did believe it very possible for him to succeed with the assistance we should be able to give him here ; and that if this parliament were dissolved , there would be no great difficulty of getting a new one , which would be more useful : the constitutions of our parliaments being such , that a new one can never hurt the crown , nor an old one do it good . his r. h. being pleased to own these propositions , which were but only general , i thought it reasonable to be more particular , and come closer to the point , we might go the faster about the work , and come to some issue before the time was too far spent . i laid this for my maxim : the dissolution of our parliament will certainly procure a peace ; which proposition was granted by every body i conversed withall , even by monsieur rouvigny himself , with whom i took liberty of discoursing so far , but durst not say any thing of the intelligence i had with father ferryer . next ; that a sum of money certain , would certainly procure a dissolution ; this some doubted , but i am sure i never did ; for i knew perfectly well that the king had frequent disputes with himself at that time , whether he should dissolve or continue them ; and he several times declared that the arguments were so strong on both sides , that he could not tell to which to incline , but was carried at last to the continuance of them by this one argument : if i try them once more , they may possibly give me money ; if they do , i have gain'd my point : if they do not , i can dissolve them then , and be where i am now ; so that i have a possibility at least of getting money for their continuance , against nothing on the other side : but if we could have turn'd this argument , and said ; sir , their dissolution will certainly procure you money , when you have only a bare possibility of getting any by their continuance , and have shewn how far that bare possibility was from being a foundation to build any reasonable hope upon , which i am sure his majesty was sensible of ; and how much l . sterl . certain ( which was the sum we propos'd ) was better than a bare possibility ( without any reason to hope that that could ever be compassed ) of having half so much more ( which was the most he design'd to ask ) upon some vile dishonourable terms ; and a thousand other hazards , which he had great reason to be afraid of : if i say we had had power to have argued this , i am most confidently assured we could have compassed it , for logick in our court built upon money , has more powerful charms , then any other sort of reasoning . but to secure his most christian majesty from any hazard , as to that point i propos'd his majesty should offer that sum upon that condition , and if the condition were not performed , the money should never be due ; if it were , and that a peace would certainly follow thereupon , ( which no body doubted ) his majesty would gain his ends , and save all the vast expences of the next campaign , by which he could not hope to better his condition , or put himself into more advantagious circumstances of treaty then he was then in ; but might very probably be in a much worse considering the mighty opposition he was like to meet with , and the uncertain chances of war. but admitting that his majesty could by his great strength and conduct maintain himself in as good a condition to treat the next year as he was then in , ( which was as much as could then reasonably be hoped for ▪ ) he should have saved by this proposal , as much as all the men he must needs lose , and all the charges he should be at in a year , would be valued to amount to more then l . sterl . and so much more in case his condition should decay , as it should be worse then it was when this was made ; and the condition of his r. h. and of the catholick religion here ( which dep●nds very much upon the success of his most christian majesty , ) ●●●ivered from a great many frights and real hazards . f. ferryer seem●d to 〈…〉 sensible of the benefit all parties would gain by this proposal ; but yet it was unfortunately delay'd by an unhappy and tedious fit of sickness , which kept him so long from the king in the france comte and made him so unable to wait on his majesty after he did return to paris : but so soon as be could compass it , he was pleased to acquaint his majesty with 〈◊〉 , and wrote to the duke himself ; and did me the honour to write unto me also on the th . of september . and sent his letter by sir william throckmorton , who came express upon that errand ; in these letters he gave his r. h. fresh assurance of his most christian majesties friendship , and of his zeal and readiness to comply with every thing his r. h. had , or should think fit to propose in favour of religion , or the business of money ; and that he had commanded monsieur rouvigny as to the latter , to treat and deal with his r. h. and to receive and observe his orders and directions , but desired that he might not at all be concerned as to the former , but that his r. h. would cause what proposition he should think fit to be made about religion , to be offered either to father ferryer , or monsieur pompone . these letters came to us about the middle of september , and his r. h. expected daily when monsieur rouvigny should speak to him about the subject of that letter ; but he took no notice at all of any thing till the th . of september , the evening before the king and duke went to newmarket for a fortnight , and then only said , that he had commands from his master to give his r. h. the most firm assurance of his friendship imaginable , or something to that purpose , making his r. h. a general complement , but made no mention of any particular orders relating to father ferryer's letter . the duke wondering at this proceeding , and being obliged to stay a good part of october at newmarket ; and soon after his coming back-hearing of the death of father ferryer , he gave over all further prosecuting of the former project . but i believe i saw monsieur rouvigny's policy all along , who was vvilling to save his masters money , upon assurance that we would do all we could to stave off the parliament for our own sakes , that we would struggle as hard vvithout money as with it ; and vve having by that time , upon our ovvn interest , prevailed to get the parliament prorogued to the th . of april , he thought that prorogation being to a day so high in the spring , vvould put the confederates so far beyond their measures , as that it might procure a peace , and be as useful to france , as a dissolution : upon these reasons i suppose he vvent . i had several discourses vvith him ; and did open my self so far to him as to say , i could vvish his master vvould give us leave to offer to our master l . for the dissolution of the parliament ; and shewed him that a peace vvould most certainly follow a dissolution ( which he agreed with me in ) and that vve desir'd not the mony from his master to excite our vvills , or to make us more industrious to use our utmost povvers to procure a dissolution , but to strengthen our povver and credit vvith the king , and to render us more capable to succeed vvith his majesty , as most certainly vve should have done , had vve been fortified vvith such an argument . to this purpose i press'd mounsieur pompone frequently by sir will. throckmorton , who returned hence again into france on the tenth of november , the day our parliament should have met , but was prorogued . mounsieur pompone ( as i was informed by sir william ) did seem to approve the thing ; but yet had two objections against it : first , that the sum we proposed , was great ; and could be very ill spared in the circumstances his most christian majesty was in . to which we answer'd , that if by his expending that sum , he could procure a dissolution of our parliament , and thereby a peace , which every body agreed would necessarily follow ; his most christian majesty would gain his ends , and save five or ten times a greater sum , and so be a good husband by his expence ; and if we did not procure a dissolution , he should not be at that expence at all ; for that we desired him only to promise upon that condition , which we were content to be obliged to perform first . the second objection was , the duke did not move , nor appear in it himself . to that we answered , that he did not indeed to mounsieur pompone , because he had found so ill an effect of the negotiation with father ferryer , when it came into mounsieur rouvigny's hands ; but that he had concerned himself in it to father ferryer . yet i continued to prosecute and press the dissolution of the parliament , detesting all prorogations as only so much loss of time , and a means of strengthning all those who depend upon it in opposition to the crown , the interest of france , and catholick religion , in the opinion they had taken , that our king durst not part with his parliament ; apprehending that another would be much worse . second , that he could not live long without a parliament , therefore they must suddenly meet ; and the longer he kept them off , the greater his necessity would grow ; and consequently their power to make him do what they listed , would increase accordingly : and therefore , if they could but maintain themselves a while , the day would certainly come in a short time , in which they should be able to work their wills. such discourses as these kept the confederates and our male-contents in heart , and made them weather on the war in spight of all our prorogations : therefore i press'd ( as i have said ) a dissolution until february last , when our circumstances were so totally changed , that we were forced to change our councels too , and be as much for the parliaments sitting , as we were before against it . our change was thus ; before that time , the lord arlington was the only minister in credit , who thought himself out of all danger of the parliament ; he having been accused before them and justified , & therefore was zealous for their sitting ; and to increase his reputation with them , and to become a perfect favourite , he sets himself all he could , to persecute the catholick religion , and to oppose the french : to shew his zeal against the first , he revived some old dormant orders for prohibiting roman catholicks to appear before the king , and put them in execution at his first coming into his office of lord chamberlain : and to make sure work with the second , as he thought ; prevailed with the king to give him and the earl of ossory , ( who married two sisters of myne heere odyke's ) leave to go over into holland with the said heere , to make a visit , as they pretended , to their relations ; but indeed , and in truth , to propose the lady mary ( eldest daughter of his r. h. ) as a match for the prince of orange ; not only without the consent , but against the good likeing of his r. h. : in so much , that the lord arlingtons creatures were forced to excuse him , with a distinction , that the said lady was not to be looked upon as the dukes daughter , but as the kings , and a child of the state was , and so the duke's consent not much to be considered in the disposal of her , but only the interest of state. by this he intended to render himself the darling of parliament and protestants , who look'd upon themselves as secured in their religion by such an alliance , and designed further to draw us into a close conjunction with holland , and the enemies of france . the lord arlington set forth upon this errand the tenth of november . and returned not till the sixth of january following ; during his absence , the l. treasurer , l. keeper , & the duke of lauderdale , who were the only ministers of any considerable credit with the king , and who all pretended to be entirely united to the duke , declaimed loudly , & with great violence , against the said lord , & his actions in holland ; and did hope , in his absence , to have totally supplanted him , and to have routed him out of the kings favour ; and after that , thought they might easily enough have dealt with the parliament . but none of them had courage enough to speak against the parliament , till they could get rid of him ; for fear they should not succeed , and that the parliament would sit in spight of them , and come to hear that they had used their endeavours against it ; which would have been so unpardonable a crime with our omnipotent parliament , that no power could have been able to have saved them from punishment : but they finding at his return , that they could not prevail against him , by such means and arts as they had then tryed , resolved upon new councels ; which were to out-run him in his own course ; which accordingly they undertook , & became as fierce apostles , and as zealous for protestant religion , & against popery , as ever my l. arlington had been before them ; and in pursuance thereof , perswaded the king to issue out those severe orders & proclamations against catholicks , which came out in february last ; by which , they did as much as in them lay , to extirpate all catholicks , and catholick religion , out of the kingdom ; which councels , were in my poor opinion so detestable , being levelled ( as they must needs be ) so directly against the duke , by people which he had advanced , and who had professed so much duty and service to him , that we were put upon new thoughts how to save his r. h. now from the deceits and snares of those men , upon whom we formerly depended . we saw well enough , that their design was to make themselves as grateful as they could to the parliament , if it must sit ; they thinking nothing so acceptable to them , as the persecution of popery ; and yet they were so obnoxious to the parliaments displeasure in general , that they would have been glad of any expedient to have kept it off ; though they durst not engage against it openly themselves , but thought this device of theirs might serve for their purposes , hoping the duke would be so alarm'd at their proceedings , and by his being left by every body , that he would be much more afraid of the parliament than ever , and would use his utmost power to prevent its sitting : which they doubted not but he would endeavour ; & they were ready enough to work underhand too for him ( for their own sakes , not his ) in order thereunto , but durst not appear openly ; and to encourage the duke the more to endeavour the dissolution of the parliament , their creatures used to say up and down , that this rigour against the catholicks , was in favour of the duke , and to make a dissolution of the parliament more easy , ( which they knew he coveted ) by obviating one great objection which was commonly made against it , which was , that if the parliament should be dissolved , it would be said , that it was done in favour of popery ; which clamour they had prevented beforehand by the severity they had used against it . as soon as we saw these tricks put upon us , we plainly saw what men we had to deal withal , and what we had to trust to , if we were wholly at their mercy : but yet durst not seem so dissatisfied as we really were , but rather magnified the contrivance , as a device of great cunning and skill : all this we did , purely to hold them in a belief , that we would endeavour to dissolve the parliament , & that they might rely upon his r. h. for that which we knew they long'd for , and were afraid they might do some other way , if they discovered that we were resolved we would not : at length , when we saw the sessions secured , we declared , that we were for the parliaments meeting ; as indeed we were , from the moment we saw our selves handled by all the kings ministers at such a rate , that we had reason to believe , they would sacrifice france , religion , and his r. h. too , to their own interest , if occasion served ; and that they were lead to believe , that that was the only way they had to save themselves at that time : for we saw no expedient fit to stop them in their carreir of persecution , and those other destructive counsels , but the parliament ; which had set it self a long time to dislike every thing the ministers had done , and had appeared violently against popery , whilest the court seemed to favor it ; and therefore we were confident , that the ministers having turned their faces , the parliament would do so too , and still be against them ; and be as little for persecution then , as they had been for popery before . this i undertook to manage for the duke and the king of france's interest ; and assured mounsieur rouvigny ( which i am sure he will testify , if occasion serves ) that that sessions should do neither of them any hurt ; for that i was sure i had power enough to prevent mischief , though i durst not engage for any good they vvould do ; because i had but very few assistances to carry on the vvork , and vvanted those helps , which others had of making friends : the dutch and spaniard spared no pains or expence of mony to animate as many as they could against france ; our lord treasurer , lord keeper , all the bishops , & such as call'd themselves old cavaliers , ( who vvere all then as one man ) were not less industrious against popery , and had the purse at their girdle too ; vvhich is an excellent instrument to gain friends vvith ; and all united against the duke , as patron both of france and catholick religion . to deal with all this force , vve had no money , but vvhat came from a few private hands ; and those so mean ones too , that i dare venture to say , that i spent more my particular self out of my own fortune , and upon my single credit , than all the whole body of catholicks in england besides ; which was so inconsiderable , in comparison of what our adversaries commanded , and we verily believe did bestow in making their party , that it is not worth mentioning : yet notwithstanding all this , we saw that by the help of the nonconformists , as presbyterians , independents , and other sects , ( who were as much afraid of persecution as our selves ) and of the enemies of the ministers , and particularly of the treasurer ; who by that time had supplanted the earl of arlington , and was grown sole manager of all affaires himself , we should be very able to prevent vvhat they designed against us , and so render the sessions ineffectual to their ends , though vve might not be able to compass our own ; which were , to make some brisk step in favour of his r. h. to shew the king , that his majesties affairs in parliament were not obstructed , by reason of any aversion they had to his r. h's person , or apprehensions they had of him , or his religion ; but from faction and ambition in some , and from a real dissatisfaction in others , that we have not had such fruits and good effects of those great sums of money which have been formerly given as was expected . if we could then have made but one such step , the king would certainly have restored his r. h. to all his comissions ; upon which he would have been much greater than ever yet he was in his whole life , or could probably ever have been by any other course in the world , than what he had taken of becoming catholique , &c. and we were so very near gaining this point , that i did humbly beg his r. h. to give me leave to put the parliament upon making an address to the king , that his majesty would be pleased to put the fleet into the hands of his r. h. as the only person likely to give a good accompt of so important a charge as that was to the kingdom ; and shewed his r. h. such reasons to perswade him that we could carry it , that he agreed with me in it , that he believ'd we could . yet others telling him how great a damage it would be to him , if he should miss in such an undertaking ( which for my part i could not then see , nor do i yet ) he was prevailed upon not to venture , though he was perswaded he could carry it . i did communicate this designe of mine to mounsieur rouvigny , who agreed with me , that it would be the greatest advantage immaginable to his master , to have the dukes power and credit so far advanced as this would certainly do , if we could compass it : i shewed him all the difficulty we were like to meet with , and what helps we should have ; but that we should want one very matterial one , money , to carry on the work as we ought ; and therefore i do confess , i did shamefully beg his masters help , and would willingly have been in everlasting disgrace with all the world , if i had not with that assistance of twenty thousand pound sterling , ( which perhaps is not the tenth part of what was spent on the other side ) made it evident to the duke , that he could not have missed it . mounsieur rouvigny used to tell me , that if he could be sure of succeeding in that design , his master would give a very much larger sum ; but that he was not in a condition to throw away money upon uncertainties . i answered , that nothing of that nature could be so infallibly sure , as not to be subject to some possibilities of failing ; but that i durst venture to undertake to make it evident , that there was as great an assurance of succeeding in it , as any husbandman can have of a crop in harvest , vvho sovvs his ground in its due season ; and yet it vvould be counted a very imprudent peice of vvariness in any body , to scruple the venturing so much seed in its proper time , because it is possible it may be totally lost , and no benefit of it found in harvest ; he that mindes the winds and the rains at that rate , shall neither sovv nor reap . i take our case to be much the same as it was the last sessions : if we can advance the duke's interest one step forward , we shall put him out of the reach of chance for ever ; for he makes such a figure already , that cautious men do not care to act against him , nor always without him , because they do not see that he is much out-powred by his enemies ; yet is he not at such a pitch , as to be quite out of danger , or free from opposition : but if he could gain any considerable new addition of power , all would come over to him as to the only steddy center of our government , and no body would contend with him further . then would catholicks be at rest , and his most christian majestie 's interest secured with us in england , beyond all apprehensions whatsoever . in order to this , we have two great designes to attempt this next sessions . first , that which we were about before , viz. to put the parliament upon making it their humble request to the king , that the fleet may be put into his r. h's care. secondly , to get an act for general liberty of conscience . if we carry these two , or either of them , we shall in effect do what we list afterwards ; and truly , we think we do not undertake these great points very unreasonably , but that we have good cards for our game ; not but that we expect great opposition , and have great reason to beg all the assistance we can possibly get ; and therefore , if his most christian majesty would stand by us a little in this conjuncture , and help us with such a sum as . l. sterling ( which is no very great matter to venture upon such an undertaking as this ) i would be content to be sacrificed to the utmost malice of my enemies , if i did not succeed . i have proposed this several times to monsieur rouvigny , who seemed always of my opinion ; and has often told me , that he has writ into france upon this subject , and has desired me to do the like : but i know not whether he will be as zealous in that point as a catholick would be ; because our prevailing in these things would give the greatest blow to the protestant religion here , that ever it received since birth ; which perhaps he would not be very glad to see ; especially when he believes there is another way of doing his masters business well enough without it ; which is by a dissolution of the parliament ; upon which i know he mightily depends , and concludes , that if that comes to be dissolved , it will be asmuch as he needs care for ; proceeding perhaps upon the same manner of discourse which we had this time twelve months . but with submission to his better judgment , i do think that our case is extreamly much altered to what it was , in relation to a dissolution ; for then the body of our governing ministers ( all but the earl of arlington ) were entirely united to the duke ; and would have governed his way , if they had been free from all fear and controul , as they had been , if the parliament had been removed . but they having since that time engaged in quite different councells , and embark't themselves and interests upon other bottoms , having declared themselves against popery , &c. to dissolve the parliament simply , and without any other step made , will be to leave them to govern what way they list , which we have reason to suspect will be to the prejudice of france and catholick religion . and their late declarations and actions have demonstrated to us , that they take that for the most popular way for themselves , and likeliest to keep them in absolute power ; whereas , if the duke should once get above them ( after the tricks they have plaid with him ) they are not sure he will totally forget the usage he has had at their hands : therefore it imports us now to advance our interest a little further , by some such project as i have named , before we dissolve the parliament ; or else perhaps , we shall but change masters ( a parliament for ministers ) and continue still in the same slavery and bondage as before . but one such step as i have proposed , being well made ; we may safely see them dissolved , and not fear the ministers ; but shall be established , and stand firm without any opposition ; for every body will then come over to us , and worship the rising sun. i have here given you the history of three years , as short as i could , though i am afraid it will seem very long and troublesome to your reverence , among the multitude of affairs you are concern'd in : i have also shewn you the present state of our case , vvhich may ( by god's providence and good conduct ) be made of such advantage to gods church ; that for my part , i can scarce believe my self awake , or the thing real , vvhen i think on a prince in such an age as vve live in , converted to such a degree of zeal and piety , as not to regard any thing in the world in comparison of god almighty's glory , the salvation of his own soul , and the conversion of our poor kingdom ; vvhich has been a long time opprest , and miserably harrast vvith heresy and schisme . i doubt not but your reverence will consider our case , and take it to heart , and afford us what help you can ; both with the king of heaven , by your holy prayers , and with his most christian majesty , by that great credit which you most justly have with him . and if ever his majesties affairs ( or your own ) can ever want the service of so inconsiderable a creature as my self , you shall never find any body readyer to obey your commands , or faithfuller in the execution of them , to the best of his power , than your most humble and obedient servant att. gen. that i may make things clear as much as possible ; you see , here 's a letter prepared to be sent , writ with mr. coleman's own hand , to mounsieur le chese : this letter bears date the twenty nineth of september . we have an answer to it from paris , october twenty third , whereby mounsieur le chese owns the receipt of this ; and in this answer , is exprest thanks to mr. coleman for his long letter . sir. robert , pray tell how you came by this letter . sir. rob. southwell , i found this letter in mr. colemans canvas bag ; after we had once looked over the letters , we found it : sr. phillip lloyd examined it ; and we looked over those papers very exactly : because the house of commons were very much concern'd , and thought those papers were not throughly examined , i reviewed them again . this letter was found on sunday following , after the papers were seized . mr. att. sir rob. southwell , i pray read the letter in french first to the court , ( sir. rob. having read the letter in french ) mr. attorney desired him to read it in english . sir. rob. read it it in english ; the letter was dated paris twenty third october . and subscribed , your most humble and obedient servant , dcl at the bottom . the letter . from paris , . october . sir , the letter which you gave your self the trouble to write to me , came to my hands but the last night i read it with great satisfaction ; and i assure you , that its length did not make it seem tedious . i should be very glad on my part to assist in seconding your good intentions ; i will consider of the means to effect it ; and when i am better informed than i am as yet , i will give you an account : to the end i may hold intelligence with you , as you did with my predecessour . i desire you to believe that i will never fail as to my good will , for the service of your master , whom i honour as much as he deserves , and that it is with great truth that i am your most humble and most obedient servant d. l. c. at. gen. we made mention of a declaration : by his long narrative it plainly appears , that mr coleman would have had another parliament . and the reason why he was pleased to publish a declaration , was , thereby to shew the reasons for its dissolution . sir philip floyd , did you find this writing among mr coleman's papers ? sir p. f. i did finde it among his papers . at. gen. pray read the declaration . clerk of the crown reads the declaration . the declaration which mr. coleman prepared , thereby shewing his reasons for the dissolution of the parliament . we having taken into our serious consideration the heats and animosities which have of late appeared among many of our very loyal and loving subjects of this kingdom , and the many fears and jealousies which some of them seem to lye under , of having their liberties and properties invaded , or their religion altered ; and withal , carefully reflecting upon our own government since our happy restauration , and the end and aim of it , which has always been the ease and security of our people in all their rights , and advancement of the beauty and splendour of the true protestant religion established in the church of england ; of both which we have given most signal testimonies , even to the stripping our self of many royal prerogatives which our predecessours enjoyed , and were our undoubted due ; as the court of wards , purveyances , and other things of great value ; and denying to our self many advantages , which we might reasonably and legally have taken by the forfeitures made in the times of rebellion , and the great revenues due to the church at our return , which no particular person had any right to : instead of which , we consented to an act of oblivion of all those barbarous usages which our royal father and our self had met withal , much more full and gracious than almost any of our subjects , who were generally become in some measure or other obnoxious to the laws , had confidence to ask ; and freely renounced all our title to the profit which we might have made by the church-lands , in favour of our bishops and other ecclesiastical ministers , out of our zeal to the glory of our protestant church ; which clemency to wards all , and some even high offenders , and zeal for religion , we have to this day constantly continued to exercise . considering all this , we cannot but be sensibly afflicted to see , that the frowardness of some few tumultuous heads should be able to infect our loyal and good people with apprehensions destructive of their own , and the general quiet of our kingdome ; and more especially , their perverseness should be powerful enough to distract our very parliament , and such a parliament , as has given as such testimonies of its loyalty , wisdom , and bounty , and to which we have given as many marks of our affection and esteem , so as to make them mis-conster all our endeavours for to preserve our people in ease and prosperity , and against all reason and evidence to represent them to our subjects as arguments of fear and disquiet ; and under these specious pretences of securing property and religion , to demand unreasonable things , manifestly destructive of what they would be thought to aim at ; and from our frequent condescentions , out of our meer grace , to grant them what we conceived might give them satisfaction , though to the actual prejudice of our royal prerogative , to make them presume to propose to advance such extravagancies into laws , as they themselves have formerly declared detestable ; of which we cannot forbear to give our truly loyal subjects some instances , to undeceive our innocent and well-minded people , who have many of them of late been too easily misled , by the factious endeavours of some turbulent spirits . for example , we having judged it necessary to declare war against the states of holland , during a recess of parliament , which we could not defer longer , without loosing an advantage which then presented it self , nor have done sooner , without exposing our honour to a potent enemy without due preparation , we thought it prudent to unite all our subjects at home , and did believe a general indulgence of tender consciences the most proper expedient to effect it ; and therefore did by our authority in ecclesiasticks , which we thought sufficient to warrant what we did , suspend penal laws against dissenters in religion , upon conditions expressed in our declaration , out of reason of state , as well as to gratifie our own nature , which always we confess abhorr'd rigour , especially in religion , when tenderness might be as useful . after we had engaged in the war , we prorogued our parliament from april to october , being confident we should be able by that time to shew our people such success of our arms , as should make them cheerfully contribute to our charge . at october we could have shewn them success even beyond our own hopes , or what they could possibly expect ; our enemies having lost by that time , near strong towns and forts taken in effect by us , we holding them busie at sea , whilst our allies possessed themselves of their lands , with little or no resistance ; and of which , the great advantage would most visibly have been ours , had not the fewds we now complain of , which have been since unhappily started , and factiously improved by some few , dis-united our people , distracted our counsels , and render'd our late endeavours vain and fruitless ; so that we had no reason to doubt of our peoples ready and liberal concurrence to our assistance in that conjuncture . yet our enemies proposing to us at that time a treaty for peace , which we were always ready to accept upon honourable terms ; and considering with our self that in case that treaty succeeded , a far less sum of money would serve our occasions , than otherwise would be necessary : we out of our tender regard to the ease of our people , prorogued our parliament again to february , to attend the success of our treaty , rather than to demand so much money in october , as would be fit to carry on the war. but we soon finding that our enemies did not intend us any just satisfaction , saw a necessity of prosecuting the war , which we designed to do most vigourously ; and in order to it , resolv'd to press our parliament to supply us as speedily as may be , to enable us to put our fleet to sea early in the spring , which would after their meeting grow on apace . and being informed that many members were dead during the long recess , we issued out our writs for new elections , that our house of commons might be full at the first opening of the sessions , to prevent any delay in our publick affairs , or dislike in our people , as might possibly have risen from the want of so great a number of their representatives , if any thing of moment should be concluded before it had been supplyed . having govern'd our actions all along with such careful respect to the ease of our subjects , we at the meeting of our parliament in february . expected from them some suitable expressions of their sense of our favours ; but quite contrary , found our self alarm'd with clamorous complaints from several cabals against all our proceedings , frighting many of our good subjects into strange conceits of what they must look for , by their seditious and false constructions of what we had so candidly and sincerely done for their good ; and surprised with a vote of our house of commons , against our writs of elections , which we intended for their satisfactions , against many presidents of ours , or without any colour of law of their side , denying our power to issue out such writs , addressing to us to issue out others : which we consented to do at their request choosing rather to yield to our subjects in that point , than to be forced to submit to our enemies in others ; hoping that our parliament being sensibly touched with that our extraordinary condescention , would go on consider the publick concern of the kingdom , without any further to do : but we found another use made of our so easie compliance , which serv'd to encourage them to ask more ; so that soon after we found our declaration for indulging tender consciences arraigned , voted illegal ; though we cannot to this day understand the consistences of that vote , with our undoubted supremacy in all ecclesiasticks , recognizing by so many acts of parliament , and required to be sworn to , by all our subjects , and addresses made to us one after another to recal it , which we condescended to also ; from hence they proceeded to us to weaken our self in an actual war , and to render many of our subjects , of whose loyalty and ability we were well satisfied , incapable to serve us , when we wanted officers and soldiers , and had reason to invite as many experienced men as we could to engage in our arms , rather than to incapacitate or discourage any ; yet this also we gratified them in , to gain their assistance against our enemies , who grew high by these our differences , rather than expose our countrey to their power and fury ; hoping that in time our people would be confounded to see our concessions , and be ashamed of their errors in making such demands . but finding the unfortunate effects of our divisions the following summer , we found our parliament more extravagant at the next meeting than ever , addressing to us to hinder the consummation of our dear brother's marriage , contrary to the law of god , which forbiddeth any to separate any , whom he hath joyned , against our faith and honour engag'd in the solemn treaty , obstinately persisting in that address , after we had acquainted them , that the marriage was then actually ratifyed , and that we had acted in it by our ambassador ; so that we were forced to separate them for a while , hoping they would bethink themselves better at their meeting in january . instead of being more moderate or ready to consider our wants towards the war ; they voted as they had done before , not to assist us still , till their religion were effectually secur'd against popery , aggrievances redressed , and all obnoxious men removed from us ; which we had reason to take for an absolute denyal of all aid ; considering the indefiniteness of what was to proceed , and the moral impossibility of effecting it in their sences : for when will they say their religion is effectually secured from popery , if it were in danger then , by reason of the insolency of papists . when our house of commons , which is made up of members from every corner of our kingdom , with invitations publickly posted up to all men to accuse them , has not yet in so many years as they have complained of them , been able to charge one single member of that communion , with so much as a misdemeanour . or what security could they possibly expect against that body of men , or their religion , more than we had given them ? or how can we hope to live so perfectly , that study and pains may not make a collection of grievances , as considerable as that which was lately presented to us , than which vve could not have wish'd for a better vindication of our government ? or when shall vve be sure that all obnoxious men are removed from us , when common same thinks fit to call them so ; which is to every body , without any proof , sufficient to render any man obnoxious , who is popishly affected , or any thing else that is ill , though they have never so often or lately complyed with their own tests and marks of distinction and discriminations . finding our people thus unhappily disordered , we saw it impossible to prosecute the war any longer ; and therefore did by their advice make a peace upon such conditions as we could get ; hoping that being gratified in that darling point , they would at least have paid our debts , and enabled us to have built some ships for the future security of our honour , and their own properties ; but they being tran●●orted with their success in asking , were resolved to go on still that way , and would needs have us put upon the removing of our judges from those charges , which they have always hitherto held at the vvill and pleasure of the crown , out of our power to alter the ancient laws of trying of peers , and to make it a premunire in our subjects ( in a case supposed ) not to fight against our self ; nay , some had the heart to ask , that the hereditary succession of our crown ( which is the foundation of all our laws ) should be changed into a sort of election , they requiring the heir to be qualified with certain conditions , to make him capable of succeeding , and out-doing that popish doctrine , which we have so long , and so loudly with good reason decryed , that heresie incapacitates kings to reign . they would have had , that the heir of the crown , marrying a papist , though he continued never so orthodox himself , should forfeit his right of inheritance ; not understanding this paradoxical way of securing religion by destroying it , as this would have done that of the church of england , which always taught obedience to their natural kings , as an indispensable duty in all good christians , let the religion or deportment of their prince be what it will ; and not knowing how soon that impediment , which was supposed as sufficient to keep out an heir , might be thought as fit to remove a possessor : and comparing that bill which would have it a premunire in a sheriff not to raise the posse comitatus , against our commission in a case there supposed , though we our self should assist that our commission in our person : for not being excepted , is implyed with the other made by this very parliament in the th year of our reign , which all our subjects , or at least many of them , were obliged to swear ( viz. ) that the doctrine of taking up arms by the king's authority against his person , was detestable ; and we soon found that the design was levelled against the good protestant religion of our good church , which its enemies had a mind to blemish , by sliding in slily those damnable doctrines , by such an authority as that of our parliament , into the profession of our faith or practices , and so expose our whole religion to the scorn and reproach of themselves , and all the world : we therefore thought it our duty to be so watchful as to prevent the enemies sowing such mischievous tares as these , in the wholsom field of our church of england , and to guard the unspotted spouse of our blessed lord , from that foul accusation , with which she justly charges other churches , of teaching their children loyalty , with so many reserves and conditions , that they shall never want a distinction to justifie rebellion , nor a text of scripture , as good as curse ye meroz , to encourage them to be traitors : whereas our truly reformed church knows no such subtilties ; but teaches according to the simplicity of christianity , to submit to every ordinance of man for god's sake , according to the natural signification of the words , without equivocation or artificial turns . in order to which , having thought to dissolve that body , which we have these many years so tenderly cherished , and which we are sure consists generally of most dutiful and loyal members , we were forc'd to prorogue our parliament till november next , hoping thereby to cure those disorders , which have been sown amongst the best and loyallest subjects , by a few malicious incendiaries . but understanding since , that such who have sowed that seditious seed , are as industriously careful to water it by their cabals , and emissaries , instructed on purpose to poison our people with discourses in publick places , in hopes of a great crop of confusion , their beloved fruit , the next sessions ; we have found it absolutely necessary to dissolve our parliament , though with great reluctancy and violence to our inclination : but remembring the dayes of our royal father , and the progress of affairs then , how from a cry against popery , the people went on to complain of grievances , and against evil councellors , and his majesties prerogative ; untill they advanc'd into a formal rebellion ; which brought forth the most dire and fatal effects , that ever were yet heard of amongst any men , christians or others ; and withal , finding so great a resemblance between the procedings then and now , that they seem both broth of the same brains : and being confirm'd in that conceit , by observing the actions of many now , who had a great share in the management of the former rebellion , and their zeal for religion , who by their lives give us too much reason to suspect they have none at all ; vve thought it not safe to dally too long , as our royal father did , with submissions and condescentions , endeavouring to cure men infected , without removing them from the air where they got the disease , and in which it still rages and increases daily . for fear of meeting with no better success than he found , in suffering his parliament to challenge power they had nothing to do with , till they had bewitch'd the people into fond desires of such things as quickly destroyed both king and country , which in us would be an intollerable error , having been warn'd so lately by the most execrable murther of our royal father , and the inhumane usage , which we our self in our royal person and family have suffered , and our loyal subjects have endured by such practices ; and least this our great care of this our kingdomes quiet , and our own honour and safety should , as our best actions have hitherto been ; be wrested to some sinister sence , and arguments be made from it to scare our good people into any apprehensions of an arbitrary government , either in church or state ; we do hereby solemnly declare and faithfully engage our royal word ; that vve will in no case either ecclesiastical or civil , violate or alter the known lawes of our kingdom ; or invade any man's property or liberty , without due course of law. but that we will with our utmost indeavours , preserve the true protestant religion , and redress all such things as shall indifferently , and without passion , be judg'd grievances by our next parliament ; which we do by god's blessing intend to call before the end of february next . in the mean time , we do strictly charge and command all manner of persons whatsoever , to forbear to talk seditiously , slightly or irreverently of our dissolving of the parliament , of this our declaration , or of our person or government , as they will answer it at their perils ; vve being resolv'd to prosecute all offenders in that kind with the utmost rigour and severity of the law. and to the end that such licentious persons , if any shall be so impudent and obstinate as to disobey this our royal command , may be detected , and brought to due punishment , we have ordered our lord treasurer to make speedy payment of twenty pounds to any person or persons , who shall discover or bring any such seditious , slight or irreverent talker before any of our principal secretaries of state. record . i would have the jury should know the declaration ends , to one of his majesties principal secretaries of state , whereof he hoped to be one . att. gen. this is written in the name of the king ; for mr. coleman thought himself now secretary of state , and he penns the declaration for the king to give an account , why the parliament was dissolved . serj. maynard . the long letter , it appears , was to dissolve the parliament ; and to make it cock-sure , he provides a declaration to shew the reason of it : it was done in order to bring in popery ; that may appear by the subsequent proof . att. gen. i have other evidence to offer to your lordship , which is , that mr. coleman was not onely so bold as to prepare a declaration for the king , but also out of his own further ingenuity , prepares a letter ( contrary to the duke's knowledg ) for the duke , which before several lords he confessed ; and sir philip floyd is here ready to justifie it . sir phil. floyd . i did attend a committee of the house of lords to newgate , who examined mr. coleman , and told him of the letter mr. attorney mentioneth ; he then confessed , that it was prepared without the order and privity of the duke ; and when he was so bold as to shew it the duke , the duke was very angry and rejected it . l. chief just . he hath been a very forward undertaker on the behalf of the duke . mr. att. gen. i desire the letter may be read . the copy of the letter written to monsieur le chese , the french king's confessor , which mr. coleman confessed he himself wrote , and counterfeited in the duke's name . clerk of the crown reads the letter . the d. of june last past , his most christian majestie offered me most generously his friendship , and the use of his purse to the assistance against the designs of my enemies and his ; and protested unto me , that his interest and mine were so clearly linckt together , that those that opposed the one , should be lookt upon as enemies to the other ; and told me moreover his opinion of my lord arlington , and the parliament ; which is , that he is of opinion that neither the one nor the other , is in his interest or mine : and thereupon he desired me to make such propositions as i should think fit in this conjuncture . all was transacted by the means of father ferrier , who made use of sir william throgmorton , who is an honest man and of truth , who was then at paris , and hath held correspondence with coleman , one of my family , in whom i have great confidence . i was much satisfied to see his most christian majestie altogether of my opinion , so i made him answer the th of june , by the same means he made use of to write to me , that is , by coleman , who addrest himself to father ferrier , ( by the forementioned knight ) and entirely agreed to his most christian majestie , as well to what had respect to the union of our interests , as the unusefulness of my lord arlington , and the parliament , in order to the service of the king my brother , and his most christian majestie ; and that it was necessary to make use of our joynt and utmost credits , to prevent the success of those evil designs , resolved on by the lord arlington and the parliament , against his most christian majestie and my self ; which of my side i promise really to perform ; of which , since that time , i have given reasonable good proof . moreover i made some proposals , which i thought necessary to bring to pass what we were obliged to undertake , assuring him , that nothing could so firmly establish our interest with the king my brother , as that very same offer of the help of his purse , by which means , i had much reason to hope i should be enabled to persuade to the dissolving of the parliament , and to make void the designs of my lord arlington , who works incessantly to advance the interest of the prince of orange and the hollanders , and to lessen that of the king your master , notwithstanding all the protestations he hath made to this hour , to render him service . but as that , which was proposed , was at a stand by reason of the sickness of father ferrier , so our affairs succeeded not according to our designs , only father ferrier wrote to me the ●● th of the last m●●●h that 〈…〉 & that they had been very well lik'd of ; but as they contained things that had regard to the catholick religion , & to the offer and use of his purse , he gave me to understand he did not desire i should treat with monsieur revigny upon the first , but as to the last , and had the same time acquainted me , that monsieur revigny had order to grant me what soever the conjuncture of our affairs did require ; and have expected the effects of it to this very hour : but nothing being done in it , and seeing on the other hand that my lord arlington and several others endeavoured by a thousand deceits to break the good intelligence , which is between the king my brother , his most christian majestie , and my self , to the end they might deceive us all three , i have thought fit to advertise you of all that is past , and desire of you your assistance and friendship to prevent the rogueries of those , who have no other design than to betray the concerns of france and england also , and who by their pretended service , are the occasion they succeed not . as to any thing more , i refer you to sir william throgmorton , and coleman , whom i have commanded to give an account of the whole state of our affair , and of the true condition of england , with many others , and principally my lord arlington's endeavours , to represent to you quite otherwise than it is . the two first i mentioned to you are firm to my interest , so that you may treat with them without any apprehension . serj. maynard . gentlemen of the jury , pray observe that he takes upon him to prepare a letter , and that in the duke's name , but contrary to the duke's knowledge or privacy ; for when he had so much boldness as to tell him of it , the duke was angry and rejected it . but in it we may see what kind of passages there are , he takes very much upon him in this matter , and mr. coleman must keep the secret too . att. general . my lord , i have but one paper more to read , and i have kept it till the last ; because if we had proved nothing by witness , or not read any thing but this , this one letter is sufficient to maintain the charge against him ▪ it plainly appears to whom it was directed , and at what time . it begins thus , ( i sent your reverence a tedious long letter on our th of september , ) i onely mention this , to shew about what time it was sent . there are some clauses in it will speak better than i can ; sir tho. doleman and sir phillip floyd swear who hath confessed and owned it to be his hand writing , 〈…〉 . i desire the letter may be read . clerk of the crown reads the letter . sir , i sent your reverence a tedious long letter on our th of september , to inform you of the progress of affairs for these . or . last years ; i having now again the opportunity of a very sure hand to convey this by , i have sent you a cipher , because our parliament now drawing on , i may possibly have occasion to send you something which you may be willing enough to know , and may be necessary for us that you should , when we may want the conveniency of a messenger . when any thing occurs of more concern other then which may not be fit to be trusted even to a cipher alone , i will , to make such a thing more secure , write in lemmon between the lines of a letter , which shall have nothing in it visible , but what i care not who sees , but dryed by a warm fire , shall discover what is written ; so that if the letter comes to your hands , and upon drying it , any thing appears more then did before , you may be sure no body has seen it by the way . i will not trouble you with that way of writing , but upon special occasions , and then i will give you a hint to direct you to look for it , by concluding my visible letter with something of fire or burning , by which mark you may please to know , that there is something underneath , and how my letter is to be used to find it out . we have here a mighty work upon our hands , no less than the conversion of three kingdoms , and by that perhaps the utter subduing of a pestilent heresie , which has domineered over great part of this northern world a long time ; there were never such hopes of success since the death of our queen mary , as now in our days . when god has given us a prince , who is become ( may i say a miracle ) zealous of being the author and instrument of so glorious a work ; but the opposition we are sure to meet with , is also like to be great : so that it imports us to get all the aid and assistance we can , for the harvest is great , and the labourers but few . that which we rely upon most , next to god almighty's providence , and the favour of my master the duke , is the mighty mind of his most christian majesty , whose generous soul inclines him to great undertakings , which being managed by your reverence's exemplary piety and prudence , will certainly make him look upon this as most sutable to himself , and best becoming his power and thoughts ; so that i hope you will pardon me if i be very troublesom to you upon this occasion , from whom i expect the greatest help we can hope for . i must confess i think his christian majesty's temporal interest is so much attracted to that of his r. h. ( which can never be considerable , but upon the growth and advancement of the catholick religion ) that his ministers cannot give him better advice , even in a politick sence , abstracting from the considerations of the next world , that of our blessed lord , to seek first the kingdom of heaven , and the righteousness thereof , that all other things may be added unto him . that i know his most christian majesty has more powerful motives suggested to him by his own devotion , and your reverences zeal for god's glory , to engage him to afford us the best help he can in our present circumstances . but we are a little unhappy in this , that we cannot press his majesty by his present minister here upon these latter arguments ( which are most strong ) but only upon the first , mr. rouvigny's sence and ours differing very much upon them , though we agree perfectly upon the rest : and indeed , though he be a very able man as to his master's service in things where religion is not concerned ; yet i believe it were much more happy ( considering the posture he is now in ) that his temper were of such a sort , that we might deal clearly with him throughout , and not be forc'd to stop short in a discourse of consequence , and leave the most material part out , because we know it will shock his particular opinion , and so perhaps meet with dislike and opposition , though never so necessary to the main concern . i am afraid we shall find too much reason for this complaint in this next session of parliament : for had we had one here from his most christian majesty , who had taken the whole business to heart , and who would have represented the state of our case truly , as it is , to his master , i do not doubt but his most christian majesty would have engag'd himself further in the affair than at present i fear he has done , and by his approbation have given such counsels as have been offered to his r. h. by those few catholicks who have access to him , and who are bent to serve him and advance the catholick religion with all their might , and might have more credit with his r. h. than i fear they have found , and have assisted them also with his purse as far as crowns , or some such sum ( which to him is very inconsiderable , but would have been to them of greater use than can be imagined ) towards gaining others to help them , or at least not to oppose them . if we had been so happy as to have had his most christian majesty with us to this degree , i would have answered with my life for such success this sessions , as would have put the interest of the catholick religion , his r. h. and his most christian majesty out of all danger , for the time to come . but wanting those helps of recommending those necessary counsels , which have been given his r. h. in such manner as to make him think them worth his accepting , and fit to govern himself by , and of those advantages , which a little money well managed , would have gained us . i am afraid we shall not be much better at the end of this sessions than we are now ; i pray god we do not lose ground . by my next , which will be e're long , i shall be able to tell your reverence more particularly , what we are like to expect . in the mean time i most humbly beg your holy prayers for all our undertakings , and that you will be pleased to honour me so far as to esteem me what i am entirely , and without any reserve . mon tres reverend pere le votre r. le plus humble plus obeisant serviteur . [ several other letters were read , but because of prolixity they are omitted , these being most material . ] attorn . gen. i have done with my evidence , we need no more proof against him . prisoner . my lord , i would , if your lordship please , very fain ask of mr. oates ( because he was pleased to say he was present with me in may or april ) whether he knows the particular days of the months . [ here mr. oates ( who being tired , withdrew to rest himself ) was called , and the prisoner was asked , whether he would speak with bedloe , but he desired not to speak with him . ] mr. oates . the consult that was held in may new-stile , is april old-stile , it was within a day or two , or three of the consult . pris . where was the consult ? oates . it was begun at the white-horse tavern , then they did adjourn it to several clubs and companies , and you came two or three days after the consult to the provincial's chamber , we then desiring to go out of town . pris . was you there , and who else ? oates . there was the provincial , and micho , and strange the old provincial , and keins your companion . pris . what day of august was that at the savoy ? oates . i cannot swear the particular day of the month , i cannot so far charge my memory . the result at the consult in may was , that pickering and groves should go on in their attempt , to assassinate the person of his majesty by shooting , or otherwise . mr. coleman knew of this , and said , it was a good design . l. chief just . who was there ? was mr. coleman with them at the consultation ? oates . no my lord , but two or three days after the consultation he was at wild-house , and there he expressed that he approved of it . l. chief just . did he consent to it ? oates . he did consent to it . just . wild. did he use no words about it ? oates . he did shew his approbation of it . but in those instructions that were brought to ashby , he did say it was a very good proposition , but he thought the reward was too little . l. chief just . did he use any words to declare his assent ? oates . two things lie couched in the question , whether your lordship means the consult , or the instructions , he did approve of . l. chief just . how long after the consultation was it that he approved of it ? oates . it was two or three days before he did give his approbation . just . wild. what words did he say ? oates . he did express his consent , but to say the very words i cannot tell . l. chief just . will you ask him any more ? pris . i would know the day in august ? l. chief just . he saith he doth not remember the day . oates . i believe , i will not be positive in it , it was about the th day of august . just . wild , and just . jones . was it in august old-stile ? oates . yes . pris . i can prove i was in warwick-shire at that time . that day he guesseth , the th of august , i can make it appear i was fourscore miles off . l. chief just . you will do well to prove you was there when the guinny was given . will you ask him any more ? pris . no. l. chief just . you may say as you will , but mr. oates doth charge , that expresly in august ( according to the english stile ) you were at this wild-house , and that he saw fourscore pounds prepared . you mr. coleman asked the question , what preparations were made for the men going to windsor ? it was answered , fourscore pounds are prepared : and your self gave a guinny for expedition . it is a hard matter to press a man to tell the precise day of the month , but positively he doth say it was in august . pris . i was two and twenty or three and twenty days in august in warwick-shire . l. chief just . what have you now more to say ? pris . my lord , i never saw mr. oates but in the council-chamber , i never saw him in rome , in other parts i never saw the face of him , or knew him in my whole life ; nor did i see the other till now in court , as i hope to be saved . and then , my lord , as to their testimony , neither of them swear the self-same fact. l. ch. just . no man shall be guilty , if denial shall make him innocent ; they swear to the fact of killing the king both of them , and that 's enough . if one saith you have a plot to poyson that is killing the king ; and the other swears a plot to shoot , or stab him , that is to the killing of the king also : then there 's your own undertaking , in your letter , under your hand . pris . for treason ( with submission to your lordship ) i hope there 's none in that , though there are very extravagant expressions in it , i hope some expressions explain it , that it was not my design to kill the king. l. ch. just . no , your design was for the conversion of three kingdoms , and subduing of that heresie that had reigned so long in this northern part of the world : and for effecting whereof , there were never more hopes since our queen mary ' s time till now , and therefore pressing the king of france to use his power , aid , and assistance , and does this signifie nothing ? pris . doth aid and assistance signifie more than money ? the word aid in french is power ; they are promiscuous words . l. ch. just . you are charged to have had a correspondency and agency with foreign power to subvert our religion , and bring in foreign authority and power upon us , which must be the necessary consequence : how can this be proved plainer than by your letters , to press the french king that he would use his power . pris . consider the contexture and connexion of things , whether the whole series be not to make the king and the duke ( as far as i thought in my power ) as great as could be . l. ch. just . how well or ill you excuse the fault , that 's not the question ; they relate to the duke most of them , little to the king. you were carrying on such a design , that you intended to put the duke in the head of , in such method and ways as the duke himself would not approve , but rejected . pris . do not think i would throw any thing upon the duke , though i might ( in the beginning of it ) possibly make use of the dukes name , it is possible ( they say i did ) but can any imagine the people will lay down money l . or l . with me upon the dukes name , and not know whether the duke be in it ; and consequently no body will imagine the duke would ever employ any sum to this kings prejudice or disservice while he lived . i take it for granted ( which sure none in the world will deny ) that the law was ever made immediately subject to the king or duke , and consequently to the duke , i cannot think this will ever be expounded by the law of england , or the jury , to be treason . l. ch. just . what a kind of way and talking is this ? you have such a swimming way of melting words , that it is a troublesom thing for a man to collect matter out of them . you give your self up to be a great negotiator in the altering of kingdoms , you would be great with mighty men for that purpose ; and your long discourses and great abilities might have been spared . the thing these letters do seem to import , is this , that your design was to bring in popery into england , and to promote the interest of the french king in this place , for which you hoped to have a pension ( that 's plain . ) the dukes name is often mentioned , that 's true ; sometimes it appears it is against his will , and sometimes he might know of it , and be told that the consequence was not great . now say you these sums of money and all that was done , it did relate to the king or duke , and it was to advance their interest , and you thought it was the way to do it . how can this advance them unless it were done to do them service ; and if they do not consent to it , and how can this be treason , what kind of stuff is this ? you do seem to be a mighty agent , might not you for a colour use the duke of york's name to drive on the catholick cause , which you was driven to by the priests mightily , and think to get l . advance money , and a pension for your self , and make your self somebody for the present , and secretary of state for the future ? if you will make any defence for your self , or call in witnesses , we will hear them ; say what you can ; for these vain inconsequential discourses signifie nothing . pris . i have witnesses to prove i was in warwick-shire . l. ch. just . ( to boatman a witnesse . ) where was mr. coleman in aug. last ? boatm . in warwick-shire . l. ch. just . how long ? boatm . all august , to my best remembrance . l. ch. just . can you say that he was in warwick-shire all august ? that he was not at london ? boatm . i am not certain what time of the month he was in london . l. ch. just . that he was there in august , may be very true ; i do not ask how long he was in warwick-shire , but was he no where else ? ( to which the witness could make no positive answer . ) pris . i was at the lord denby's , and at mr. francis fisher's ; i was there at least twenty days . l. ch. just . have you any more witnesses ? pris . ans . none . l. ch. just . if you have a mind to say any thing more , say what you can . pris . i can say nothing more than what i have said . positively i say ( and upon my salvation ) i never saw these witnesses , oates but once , and bedlow never before . sir francis winnington , his majesty's sollicitor general , sums up the evidence , as followeth . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , the cause before you ( i dare adventure to say ) is a cause of as great a nature , and includes as great crimes , as ever came to this bar. it is not a cause of a particular treason , but ' t is a treason that runs to the whole , the king , the government , and the protestant religion , all are comprehended in it . the defence the prisoner has made is so very short , and of so slight a nature , that i shall contract my self very much in what i had to say , and only state to the court , and jury , the principal things i rely upon . the first crime laid in the indictment , is the design of killing and destroying the royal person of his majesty . the second , the subverting of the government , and in doing that , the destruction of the protestant religion . and these treasons have been punctually proved , as well by two witnesses , as by letters under mr. colemans own hand , whereby he corresponded with monsieur le chese , the french kings confessor , as also by the answers which were sent by monsieur le chese to mr. coleman . as to the proofs made by the witnesses , the substance of them is this . mr. oates swears , that in april last old style , and may new style , there was a general consult or meeting of the jesuites , at the white-horse-tavern in the strand ; and afterwards they divided themselves into several companies , or clubs ; and in those consults they conspired the death of the king , and contrived how to effect it . the manner of it was thus , ( as mr. oates positively swears ) that grove and pickering were imployed to murther the king ; and their design was to pistol him in st. james ' s park . grove was to have fifteen hundred pounds in money , and pickering [ ( being a priest ) was to have thirty thousand masses , which was computed to be of equal value to fifteen hundred pounds , according to the usual price in the church of ] rome . and this conspiracy and contrivance mr. coleman was privy to ▪ and did well approve of the same , as mr. oates affirmeth upon his oath . so that here is a plain treason proved upon the prisoner , by his assenting to the fact to be done , the law not allowing any accessaries in treason . and this in law makes the prisoner as guilty as any of the assassinates , who designed to kill the king with their own hands . if this design should fail , mr. oates swears , that the conspirators intended a farther attempt upon the royal person of the king , when be should be at windsor ; and four irish assassinates were provided by doctor fogarty , whose names he would not tell , and fourscore guinneys were provided by father harcourt ( a jesuit ) to maintain the assassinates at windsor , till they should have effected their wicked design . while the conspiracy was thus in agitation , mr. coleman , the prisoner , went to visit harcourt the jesuit at his house in town ; but finding him not at home , and being informed that he was at wild-house , mr. coleman went thither and found him there ; and mr. coleman asking what provision harcourt had made for the gentlemen at windsor ; harcourt replyed , that there were fourscore guinneys , which then lay upon the table , which were to be sent to them ; and said , that the person who was in the room was to carry them . to which mr. coleman replyed , he liked it very well ; and gave a guinney out of his own pocket to the messenger who was to carry the money to windsor , to encourage him to expedite the business . but in case the design of killing his majesty at windsor should be any ways prevented , then there was a further conspiracy , to destroy the king by poison . mr. oates swears , that in july last , ashby ( a jesuit ) brought instructions to london from flanders , that in case pickering and grove could not kill the king at london , nor the four irish assassinates at windsor , then ten thousand pounds was to be proposed to sir george wakeman to poyson the king. but it did appear by the letters that passed between white the provincial ( here in london ) and ashby , that mr. coleman said , he thought ten thousand pounds was too little ; and therefore thought it necessary to offer five thousand pounds more , which afterwards was assented to by the jesuites abroad . and mr. oates swears , he saw letters from the provincial at london , to the jesuites at st. omer , signifying , that sir george wakeman had accepted of the proposition , and received five thousand pounds of the money . by which testimony , of mr. oates , it plainly appears , that mr. coleman , the prisoner at the bar , was privy to the conspiracy , and aiding and abetting to the wicked and damnable design of murdering the king. the second witness is mr. bedlow , who swears that he was imployed by harcourt , the jesuit , to carry pacquets of letters to monsieur le chese , the french kings confessor ; and further says , he was at a consult in france , where the plot was discoursed on for killing the king ; and did bring back an answer from le chese to harcourt in london , and swears particularly , that on the th or th of may , . he was at colemans house with father harcourt , and some other persons , where mr. coleman , discoursing of the great design in hand , said these words following . that if he had a sea of blood , and an hundred lives , he would lose them all to carry on the design ; and if to effect this , it were necessary to destroy an hundred heretick kings , he would do it . so that here is another positive oath to an act of treason committed by mr. coleman , in relation to the murthering the king. the other part of the evidence consists of papers and letters , which generally relate to prove the latter part of the indictment ; to wit , the extirpation of the protestant religion , and introducing of popery , and the subverting of the government . and this appears by a letter written by mr. coleman , dated . septem . and sent to monsieur le chese , the french [ kings confessor ; wherein he gives him an account of the transactions of several years before , and of the correspondence between mr. coleman and monsieur ferrier , predecessor to le chese ; wherein he does also assert , that the true way to carry on the interest of france , and the promoting of the popish religion here in england , was , to get this parliament dissolved ; which ( says he ) had been long since effected , if three hundred thousand pounds could have been obtained from the french king ; and that things yet were in such a posture , that if he had but twenty thousand pounds sent him from france , he would he content to be a sacrifice to the utmost malice of his enemies , if the protestant religion did not receive ] such a blow as it could not subsist . and the receipt of this letter was acknowledged by monsieur le chese , in an answer which he wrote to mr. coleman , dated from paris oct. . . in which he gives him thanks for his good service , in order to the promoting the popish religion . several other letters have been produced and read , which were written by mr. coleman to monsieur ferrier and others , and more particularly one letter dated august . . written by coleman to the popes internuntio at brussels , wherein he says the design prospered so well , that he doubted not but in a little time the businesse would be managed , to the utter ruine of the protestant party . and by other letters he writes to the french kings confessor that the assistance of his most christian majesty is necessary , and desires money from the french king to carry on the design . but there is one letter , without date , more bloody than all the rest , which was written to monsieur le chese in some short time after the long letter of september . . wherein , amongst many other things , coleman expresses himself thus . we have a mighty work upon our hands , no less than the conversion of three kingdoms , and the utter subduing of a pestilent heresie , which hath for some time domineer'd over this northern part of the world ; and we never had so great hopes of it since our q. mary's days . and in the conclusion of the letter he implores monsieur le chese to get all the aid and assistance he can from france , and that next to god almighty , they did rely upon the mighty mind of his most christian majesty , and therefore did hope le chese would procure money and asistance from him . now any man that considers the contents of these letters , must needs agree , that the latter part of the indictment , to wit , the treason of endeavouring the subverting the government and the protestant religion , is fully proved upon mr. coleman , the prisoner at the bar ; and that these letters were written by him , and the answers received he does not deny . but all he has to say for himself , is that it was to make the king of england great ; whereas the contrary is most manifest , because the jesuits who love force and tyranny , always adhere to those princes that are greatest in strength and power . for it appears in history , that when the house of austria were in their greatness , and like to arrive to the vniversal monarchy in these parts of the world , the jesuits all adhered to that house ; but since the french king hath grown more mighty in power and greatness , they declined the interest of the austrian family , and do now promote the councels of france , thinking that now that king will become the vniversal monarch . i shall therefore now conclude the evidence , only observing to the jury , that the several treasons in the indictment are fully proved . the first as to the destruction of the royal person of the king , by two witnesses , mr. oates , and mr. bedlow ; the other part of it , viz. the subversion of the government , and extirpation of the protestant religion , by the several letters which have been before remembred , which have not been denyed by the prisoner to be his . therefore i hope gentlemen , when you meet with offenders that are guilty of such stupendious crimes , you will do justice upon them , which will be a great comfort and satisfaction to the king and all his good protestant subjects . serj. pembert . gentlemen , you hear the crime is of the highest nature , it 's the subversion of three kingdoms and the subduing of that religion which he defames by the name of pestilent heresie . it concerns us all to look about us , and all the kingdom , when there shall be a design managed in this manner , to destroy our king , and to take away our religion , and to enslave us all to the pope , and make us all truckle to the priests . it is wonderful it is capable ( at this day ) of so great evidence , there is digitus dei in it , or else it would be impossible such a thing should be made so manifest : all the rest that is said in the indictment are but circumstances that declare it : there is a strong evidence of many matters of fact in this design , which declare the intention hatched in his breast for many years together : here hath been a design to kill the king , and he doth not only consent to it , but commend it ; what can be said to his giving the money to him that was to pay the fourscore pieces of gold to those ruffians sent to windsor ? and adding l. to the l . for the doctor that was to poyson the king ? he denies all . no question but a man that hath had a heart to design such contrivances , will have the face to deny it publickly : it 's a thing to be acted in the dark , but there 's both mr. oates and mr. bedlow plainly prove it upon him , that he consented to the acting the kings death what 's the sence of his letters , but to shew his design , and to beg the assistance of france to them in their necessities ? the whole current is to destroy our religion . i think you gentlemen of the jury have had such evidence as will satisfie any man. pris . i deny all mr. oates his testimony , for his saying to the council he did not know me because he could not see me , when i was as near as the next gentleman but one , but knew me when i spake , and i spoke to almost all the matters asked . he accuseth me of a thing in august , but names not the day : now if there be one error in his testimony it weakens all the rest . i went out of town the th of august , it was the latter end i came home , about the middle of bartholomew fair , the last day of august . l. ch. just. have you any witness to prove that ? pris . i cannot say i have a witnesse . l. ch. just . then you say nothing . pris people cannot speak to a day , to a thing they neither imagined or thought of . l. ch. just . i ask your servant , do you know when mr. coleman went out of town ? coleman's serv. in august , i cannot say particularly the day . l. ch. just . do you know when he came home ? serv. i cannot remember . just . wild. where was you the last bartholomew day ? serv. i was in town . just . wild. where was your master ? serv. i do not remember . l. ch. just . you say you went out of town the th , and came home the last of august ; you say it is impossible that he should say right , but yet you do not prove it . pris . i have no more to say , but i entered down all my expences every day in a book , which book will shew where i was . l. ch. just . where is your book ? pris . at my lodging in vere-street by covent-garden : in a trunck that came by the carrier , that will shew when they were sent . l. ch. just . if the cause did turn upon that matter , i would be well content to sit untill the book was brought , but i doubt the cause will not stand upon that foot , but if that were the case it would do you little good . observe what i say to the jury . my lord chief justice his speech to the jury upon his summing up of the evidence . gentlemen of the jury ; my care at this time shall be to contract this very long evidence , and to bring it within a short compass , that you may have nothing before you to consider of , as near as i can , but what is really material to the acquitting or condemning of mr. coleman . the things he is accused of are of two sorts ; the one is , to subvert the protestant religion and to introduce popery : the other was to destroy and kill the king. the evidence likewise was of two sorts ; the one by letters of his own hand writing , and the other by witnesses viva voce . the former he seems to confess , the other totally to deny . for that he confesseth , he does not seem to insist upon it , that the letters were not his , he seems to admit they were ; and he rather makes his defence by expounding what the meaning of these letters were , than by denying himself to be the author . i would have you take me right , when i say he doth admit ; he doth not admit the construction , that the kings council here makes upon them : but he admits that these letters were his . he admits it so far , that he does not deny them . so that you are to examine what these letters import in themselves , and what consequences are naturally to be deduced from them . that which is plainly intended , is to bring in the roman catholick , and to subvert the protestant religion . that which is by consequence intended , was the killing the king , as being the most likely means to introduce that , which as 't is apparent by his letters , was designed to be brought in . for the first part of the evidence . all his great long letter that he wrote , was to give the present confessor of the french king an account of what had passed between him and his predecessor ; by which agency , you may see that mr. coleman was in with the former confessor . and when he comes to give an account of the three years transactions to this present confessor , and to begin a correspondence with him , about what is it ? why , the substance of the heads of the long letter comes to this . it was to bring in the catholick as he call'd it , ( that is ) the romish catholick religion , and to establish that here ; and to advance an interest for the french king , be that interest what it will. it 's true , his letters do not express what sort of interest , neither will i determine : but they say it was to promote the french kings interest , which mr. coleman would expound in some such sort , as may consist with the king of englands , and the duke of york's interest . but this is certain , it was to subvert our religion , as it is now by law established . this was the great end thereof , it cannot be denyed : to promote the interest ( i say ) of the french king , and to gain to himself a pention as a reward of his service , is the contents of his first long letter , and one or two more concerning that pention . his last letters expound more plainly what was mea●t by the french kings interest . we are ( saith he ) about a great work , no less than the conversion of three kingdoms , and the totall and utter subversion and subduing of that pestilent heresie ( that is the protestant religion ) which hath reigned so long in this northern part of the world ; and , for the doing of which , there never was such great hopes since our queen maries days , as at this time . now this plainly shews , that our religion was to be subverted , popery established , and the three kingdoms to be converted ; that is indeed , to be brought to confusion . for i say , that when our religion is to be subverted , the nation is to be subverted and destroyed , that is most apparent : for there could be no hope of subverting or destroying the protestant religion , but by a subversion , not conversion of the three kingdoms . how was it to be done otherwise ? why , i would have brought this religion in ( says he ) by dissolving of the parliament . i would have brought it in by an edict and proclamation of liberty of conscience . in these ways i would have brought it in . mr. coleman knows it is not fit for him to own the introducing of his religion by the murder of the king , or by a forein force . the one was too black and the other too bloody , to be owned . and few people ( especially the english ) will be brought to save their lives ( as he may do his ) by confession of so bloody and barbarous a thing , as an intention to kill the king , or of levying a war ; which though it be not a particular , is a general murder . i say , it was not convenient for mr. coleman , when he seem● to speak something for himself , to give such an account , how he would have done it ; therefore he tells us , he would have done it by the dissolving of the parliament and by toleration of religion . now i would very fain know of any man in the world , whether this was not a very fine and artificial covering of his design for the subversion of our religion ? pray , how can any man think , that the dissolving of the parliament could have such a mighty influence to that purpose ? it is true , he might imagine it might in some sort contribute towards it : yet it is so doubtful , that he himself mistrusts it . for he is sometimes for the dissolving of the parliament , and other times not , as appears by his own papers : for which we are not beholding to him , so much as for any one , more than what were found by accident , and produced to the king and council . but in truth , why should mr. coleman believe that another parliament ( if this parliament were dissolved ) should comply with popery ? that is to say , that there should be great hopes of bringing in of popery by a new parliament ? unless he can give me a good reason for this , i shall hold it as insignificant and as unlikely to have that effect , as his other way by a general toleration . and therefore next , upon what ground does he presume this ? i do assure you , that man does not understand the inclinations of the english people , or knows their tempers , that thinks , if they were left to themselves and had their liberty , they would turn papists . it 's true , there are some amongst us that have so little wit as to turn fanaticks , but there is hardly any , but have much more wit than to turn papists . these are therefore the counterfeit pretentions of mr. coleman . now if not by these means , in what way truly did he intend to bring in popery ? why his own letters plainly convict him of one step towards it , in endeavouring with foreign powers to bring in that religion , and to subvert ours . and for the other way of doing it , by killing the king ; i leave it to you whether there were any more probable way than that indeed to do it . and could he think , that the french king would not have thought himself cozened of his money , if he had not given him hopes that he would use the most probable methods that he could , to effect his design ? therefore there must be more in it ; for he that was so earnest for that religion , would not have stuck at any violence to bring it in ; he would not have stuck at blood . for we know their doctrines and their practises , and we know well , with what zeal the priests push them forward to venture their own lives , and to take away other mens , that differ from them , to bring in their religion , and to set up themselves . for indeed in the kingdoms and countries where popery reigns , the priests have dominion over mens consciences , and power over their purses . and they use all arts imaginable of making proselites , and take special care , that those in their communion , shall know no more than the priests shall give them leave to understand . and for this reason they prohibit the use of all books without their license . this blind obedience begets blind ignorance , and this is a great subtilty of theirs to keep them in it , that they may perfectly submit to them , what cannot they command , when they have made others slaves in their understandings , and that they must know no more , then what they give them leave to know ? but in england it is not so mr. coleman ; and therein you would have found a great disappointment . for if liberty of conscience had been tollerated here , that the consequence of it would have been popery , i deny . nothing is more unlikely , for though in the short reign of queen mary , popery came in for some time , which was but for a little time , and then the people were not so well grounded in the protestant religion , nor in the principles of it : but now they are , insomuch , that scarce a cobler but is able to baffle any roman priest that ever i saw or met with . and thanks be to god we have a preaching ministry , and the free use of the scriptures allowed amongst us , which they are not permitted to have . and after this i wonder , that a man , who hath been bred up in the protestant religion ( as i have reason to believe that you mr. coleman have been ) for ( if i am not misinformed ) your father was a minister in suffolk . for such a one to depart from it , is an evidence against you , to prove the indictment . i must make a difference between us , and those who have been always educated that way , and so are under the prepossession of their education , which is a difficult thing to be overcome . and i do assure you , there are but two things , that i know of , can make one do it , interest , or gross ignorance . no man of understanding , but for by-ends , would have left his religion to be a papist . and for you mr. coleman , who are a man of reason and subtilty , i must tell you ( to bring this to your self ) upon this account , that it could not be conscience , i cannot think it to be conscience . your pention was your conscience , and your secretaries place your bait. for such men ( i say ) as have been bred up in the protestant religion , and left it , i can hardly presume that they do it out of conscience , unless they do it upon a mighty search , not leaning upon their own understanding and abilities , nor hearing of one side alone . conscience is a tender thing , conscience will tremble when it leaves the religion it has been bred in , and its sincerity is shown by being fearful , least it should be in the wrong . no man may pretend to conscience truly , that takes not all courses imaginable to know the right , before he lets his religion slip from him . have we so soon forgot our reverence to the late king , and the pious advice he left us ? a king that was truly a defender of the faith , not onely by his title , but by his abilities and writings . a king , who understood the protestant religion so well , that he was able to defend it against any of the cardinals of rome . and when he knew it so throughly , and died so eminently for it , i will leave this characteristical note , that whosoever after that , departs from his judgment , had need have a very good one of his own , to bear him out . i do acknowledge , many of the popish priests formerly , were learned men , and may be so still , beyond the seas : but i could never yet meet with any here , that had other learning or ability but artificial onely , to delude weak women , and weaker men. they have indeed , ways of conversion , and conviction , by enlightning our understandings with a faggot , and by the powerful and irresistable arguments of a dagger : but there are such wicked soloecisms in their religion , that they seem to have left them neither natural sense , nor natural conscience . not natural sense by their absurdity , in so an unreasonable a belief , as of the wine turned into blood : not natural conscience , by their cruelty , who make the protestants blood as wine , and these priests thirst after it . tantum religio potuit suadere malorum ? mr. coleman , in one of his letters , speaks of rooting out our religion , and our party ; and he is in the right , for they can never root out the protestant religion , but they must kill the protestants . but let him and them know , if ever they shall endeavour to bring popery in , by destroying of the king , they shall find , that the papists will thereby bring destruction upon themselves , so that not a man of them would escape . ne catulus quidem relinquendus . our execution shall be as quick as their gunpowder , but more effectual . and so gentlemen , i shall leave it to you , to consider , what his letters prove him guilty of directly , and what by consequence ; what he plainly would have done , and then , how he would have done it ; and whether you think his fiery zeal had so much cold blood in it , as to spare any others ? for the other part of the evidence , which is by the testimony of the present witnesses , you have heard them . — i will not detain you longer now the day is going out . mr. j. jones . you must find the prisoner guilty , or bring in two persons perjured . l. c. j. gentlemen , if your consultation shall be long , then you must lie by it all night , and we 'l take your verdict to morrow morning . if it will not be long , i am content to stay a while . jury . my lord , we shall be short . j. wyld . we do not speak to you to make more haste , or less , but to take a full consultation , and your own time ; there is the death of a man at the stake , and make not too much haste , we do not speak it on that account . the jury went from the bar , and returned . court. are you all agreed of your verdict ? jury . yes . court. who shall speak for you ? jury . the foreman . court. edward coleman , hold up thy hand . court. is edward coleman guilty of the high treason , whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? jury . guilty , my lord. court. what goods chattels , &c. prisoner . you were pleased to say to the jury , that they must either bring me in guilty , or two persons perjured : i am a dying man , and upon my death , and expectation of salvation , declare , that i never saw these two gentlemen , excepting mr. oates , but once in all my life , and that was at the council table . l. c. j. mr. coleman , your own papers are enough to condemn you . court. capt. richardson , you must bring mr. coleman hither again to morrow morning , to receive his sentence . the day following , being november the th . mr. coleman was brought to the bar , to receive his sentence , and the court proceeded thereupon , as followeth . l. c. j. ask him what he can say for himself ; make silence cryer . court. edward coleman , hold up thy hand , thou hast been indicted of high treason , thou hast thereunto pleaded , not guilty ; thou hast put thy self upon god and thy countrey , which countrey ; hath found thee guilty ; what canst thou say for thy self , wherefore judgment of death should not be given against thee , and an execution awarded according to law ? mr. coleman . may it please you , my lord , i have this to say for my self ; as for my papers , i humbly hope , ( setting aside oral testimony ) that i should not have been found guilty of any crime in them , but what the act of grace would have pardoned , and i hope , i shall have the benefit of that : the evidence against me , namely oral , i do humbly beg , that you would be pleased , to give me a little time to shew you , how impossible it is , that those testimonies should be true ; for that testimony of mr. oates in august , my man , that is now either in the court or hall , hath gotten a book that is able to make it appear , that i was out of town , from the th of august to the of august late at night . l. c. j. that will not do , mr. coleman . coleman . i do humbly offer this , for this reason ; because mr. oates , in all his other evidences , was so punctual , as to distinguish between old stile and new , he never mist the month , hardly the week , and often times put the very day ; for his testimony that he gave against me , was , that it was the of august . l. c. j. he thought so , but he was not possitive , but onely as to the month. coleman . he was certain it was the latter end of august , and that about bartholomewtide . l. c. j. he conceived so , he thought so . coleman . now if i was always out of town from the day of august , to the late at night , it is then impossible , my lord , that that should be a true testimony , your lordship was pleased to observe , that it would much enervate any mans testimony , if to the whole he could be proved false in any one thing ; i have further in this matter to say , besides my mans testimony , the king hath since i have been seized on , seized on my papers and my book of accounts where i used punctually to set down where i spent my money ; and if it doth not appear by that book that i was all those days and times , and several other days in august , to be out of town , i desire no favour . you cannot suppose my lord , nor the world believe , that i prepared that book for this purpose in this matter ; and i can make it appear by others , if i had time ; but i only offer this to your lordship , that seeing mr. oates did name so many particulars and circumstances , it 's very strange that he should fail in a particular of such importance as about killing the king ; and no man living of common sense would think or believe that i should speak about such a thing in company that i did not well know , and this to be done frequently and oftentimes as he asserts it , when oates seem'd to the king and council ( and i believe the king himself remembers it ) when i was examined , that he did not know me , that he knew nothing of me , so that here is two things against this witness that can hardly happen again . my circumstances are extraordinary , and it is a great providence , and i think your lordship and the whole world will look upon it as such , if for any crimes that are in my papers , if there be any mercy to be showed me by the kings gracious act of pardon , i humbly beg that i may have it . l. c. j. none . col. if none i do humbly submit ; but i do humbly hope with submission , that those papers would not have been found treasonable papers . l. c. j. those letters of yours mr. coleman , were since the act of pardon , your papers bear date . . and there hath been no act since . but as for what you say concerning mr. oates , you say it in vain now mr. coleman , for the jury hath given in their verdict , and it is not now to be said , for after that rate we shall have no end of any mans trial ; but for your satisfaction mr. coleman , to the best of my remembrance , mr. oates was positive only as to the month of august , he thought it might be about the st . day or about bartholomew-fair time ; but he was absolute in nothing but the month . col. he was punctual in all his other evidences , but in this he was not , and when i was examined at the council table , he said he knew little of me . l.c.j. he charged you positively for having held conspiracy to poison the king ; and that there was ten thousand pounds to be paid for it , and afterwards there was five thousand pound more to be added ; and he positively charges you to be the person that amongst all the conspirators was reputed to pay the five thousand pound . col. he said it after such a fashion . l. c. j. he said it after such a fashion that sir robert southwell and sir thomas doleman satisfied us that he did the thing , and that plainly to his understanding ; and what say you he said ? col. that he did not know me . l. c. j. neither of them say so , that he said he did not know you , they deny it . col. he said so upon my death . l. c. j. 't is in vain to dispute it further , there must be an end. cryer , make o yes , our soveraign lord the king doth straightly charge and command all persons to keep silence while judgment is given upon the prisoner convict , upon pain of imprisonment . l. c. j. you are found guilty mr. coleman of high treason , and the crimes are several that you are found guilty of . you are found guilty of conspiring the death of the king ; you are likewise found guilty of endeavouring to subvert the protestant religion as it is by law established , and to bring in popery , and this by the aid and assistance of forraign powers . and i would not have you mr. coleman in your last apprehension of things , to go out of the world with a mistake if i could help it , that is , i would not have you think , that though you only seem to disavow the matter of the death of the king , that therefore you should think your self an innocent man. you are not innocent i am sure , for it is apparent by that which cannot deceive , that you are guilty of contriving and conspiring the destruction of the protestant religion , and to bring in popery , and that by the aid and assistance of forraign powers , and this no man can free you in the least from . and know , that if it should be true , that you would disavow , that you had not an actual hand in the contrivance of the kings death ( which two witnesses have sworn positively against you ) : yet he that will subvert the protestant religion here , and bring in consequentially a forraign authority , do's an act in derogation of the crown , and in diminution of the kings title and soveraign power ; and endeavours to bring a forraign dominion both over our consciences and estates and if any man shall endeavour to subvert our religion to bring in that , though he did not actually contrive to do it by the death of the king , or it may be not by the death of any one man , yet whatsoever follows upon that contrivance , he is guilty of ; insomuch , it is greatly to be fear'd , that though you meant only to bring it in by the way of dissolving of parliaments , or by liberty of conscience , and such kind of innocent ways as you thought , yet if so be those means should not have proved effectual , and worse should have been taken ( though by others of your confederates ) for to go through with the work , as we have great reason to believe there would , you are guilty of all that blood that would have followed . but still you say you did not design that thing ; but to tell you , he that doth a sinful and unlawful act , must answer , and is liable both to god and man for all the consequences that attend it , therefore i say you ought not to think your self innocent . 't is possible you may be penitent , and nothing remains but that . and as i think in your church you allow of a thing called attrition , if you cannot with our church , have contrition , which is a sorrow proceeding from love , pray make use of attrition , which is a sorrow arising from fear . for you may assure your self , there are but a few moments betwixt you and a vast eternity , where will be no dallying , no arts to be used , therefore think on all the good you can do in this little space of time that is left you , all is little enough to wipe off ( besides your private and secret offences ) even your publick ones . i do know that confession is very much owned in your church , and you do well in it ; but as your offence is publick , so should your confession be ; and it will do you more service then all your auricular confessions . were i in your case , there should be nothing at the bottom of my heart that i would not disclose ; perchance you may be deluded with the fond hopes of having your sentence respited . trust not to it mr. coleman , you may be flatter'd to stop your mouth , till they have stopt your breath , and i doubt you will find that to be the event . i think it becomes you as a man , and as a christian , to do all that is now in your power , since you cannot be white , to make your self as clean as you can , and to fit your self for another world , where you will see how vain all resolutions of obstinacy of concealment , and all that sort of bravery which perhaps may be instil'd by some men , will prove . they will not then serve to lessen but they will add to your fault . it concerns us no farther than for your own good , and do as god shall direct you , for the truth is , there are perswasions and inducements in your church to such kind of resolutions and such kind of actions , which you are led into by false principles and false doctrines ( and so you will find when you come once to experiment it , as shortly you will ) that hardly the religion of a turk would own . but when christians by any violent bloody act attempt to propagate religion , they abuse both their disciples and religion too , and change that way that christ himself taught us to follow him by . 't was not by blood or violence ; by no single mans undertaking to disturb and to alter governments ; to make hurly burlies , and all the mischiefs that attend such things as these are . for a church to perswade men even to the committing of the highest violences , under a pretence of doing god good service , looks not ( in my opinion ) like religion , but design ; like an engine , not a holy institution ; artificial as a clock , which follows not the sun but the setter ; goes not according to the bible but the priest , whose interpretations serve their particular ends , and those private advantages which true religion would scorn , and natural religion it self would not endure . i have mr. coleman said thus much to you as you are a christian , and as i am one , and i do it out of great charity and compassion , and with great sense and sorrow that you should be mislead to these great offences under pretence of religion . but seeing you have but a little time , i would have you make use of it to your best advantage ; for i tell you , that though death may be talkt of at a distance in a brave heroick way , yet when a man once comes to the minute , death is a very serious thing ; then you will consider how trifling all plots and contrivances are , and to how little purpose is all your concealments . i only offer these things to your thoughts , and perhaps they may better go down at such a time as this is then at another ; and if they have no effect upon you , i hope they will have some as to my own particular , in that i have done my good will. i do remember you once more , that in this matter you be not deluded with any fantastick hopes and expectations of a pardon , for the truth is mr. coleman , you will be deceived ; therefore set your heart at rest , for we are at this time in such disorders , and the people so continually alarm'd either with secret murthers , or some outrages and violences that are this day on foot , that though the king , who is full of mercy almost to a fault , yet if he should be inclined that way , i verily believe both houses would interpose between that and you . i speak this to shake off all vain hopes from you ; for i tell you i verily believe they would not you should have any twigg to hold by to deceive you ; so that now you may look upon it , there is nothing will save you , for you will assuredly dy-as now you live , and that very suddenly . in which i having discharged my conscience to you as a christian , i will now proceed to pronounce sentence against you , and do my duty as a judge . you shall return to prison , from thence be drawn to the place of execution , where you shall be hanged by the neck , and be cut down alive , your bowels burnt before your face , and your quarters sever'd , and your body disposed of as the king thinks fit ; and so the lord have mercy upon your soul. coleman . my lord , i humbly thank your lordship , and i do admire your charity , that you would be pleased to give me this admirable councel , and i will follow it as well as i can , and i beg your lordship to hear me what i am going to say , your lordship , most christian like , hath observed wisely , that confession is extreamly necessary to a dying man , and i do so too ; but that confession your lordship i suppose means , is of a guilty evil conscience in any of these points that i am condemn'd for , of maliciously contriving , &c. if i thought i had any such guilt , i should assuredly think my self damn'd now i am going out of the world by concealing them , in spite of all pardons or indulgencies , or any act that the pope or the church of rome could do for me , as i believe any one article of faith. therefore pray hear the words of a dying man , i have made a resolution , i thank god , not to tell a lie , no not a single lie , not to save my life . i hope god will not so far leave me as to let me do it ; and i do renounce all manner of mercy that god can sh●w me , if i have not told the house of commons , or offer'd it to the house of commons , all that i know in my whole heart toward this business ; and i never in all my life either made any proposition , or received any proposition , or knew or heard directly or indirectly of any proposition towards the supplanting or invading the kings life , crown or dignity , or to make any invasion or disturbance to introduce any new government , or to bring in popery by any violence or force in the world ; if i have , my lord , been mistaken in my method , as i will not say but i might have been ; for if two men differ , one must be mistaken ; therefore possibly i might be of an opinion , that popery might come in if liberty of conscience had been granted , and perhaps all christians are bound to wish all people of that religion that they profess themselves ; if they are in earnest , i will not dispute those ills that your lordship may imagine to be in the church of rome ; if i thought there was any in them i would be sure to be none of it . i have no design my lord at all in religion but to be saved ; and i had no manner of invitation to invite me to the church of rome , no not one , but to be saved ; if i am out of the way , i am out of the way , as to the next world as well as this ; i have nothing but a sincere conscience , and i desire to follow it as i ought . i do confess i am guilty of many crimes , and i am afraid all of us are guilty in some measure , of some failings and infirmities ; but in matters of this nature that i now stand condemn'd for , though i do not at all complain of the court ; for i do confess i have had all the fair play imaginable ; and i have nothing at all to say against it ; but i say as to any one act of mine , so far as acts require intention to make them acts , as all humane acts do , i am as innocent of any crime that i now stand charg'd as guilty of , as when i was first born . l. c. j. that is not possible . coleman . with submission , i do not say innocent as to any crime in going against any act of parliament , then it is a crime to hear mass , or to do any act that they prohibit ; but for intending and endeavouring to bring in that religion by the aid and assistance of the king of france , i never intended nor meant by that aid and assistance , any force in the world , but such aids and assistances as might procure us liberty of conscience . my lord , if in what i have said no body believes me , i must be content ; if any do believe me , then i have wip'd off those scandalous thoughts and abominable crimes , that , &c. and then i have paid a little debt to truth . l. c. j. one word more and i have done , i am sorry mr. coleman , that i have not charity enough to believe the words of a dying man ; for i will tell you what sticks with me very much , i cannot be perswaded , and no body can , but that your correspondence and negotiations did continue longer than the letters that we have found , that is after . now if you had come and shown us your books and letters , which would have spoke for themselves , i should have thought then that you had dealt plainly and sincerely , and it would have been a mighty motive to have believed the rest ; for certainly your correspondence held even to the time of your apprehension , and you have not discovered so much as one paper , but what was found unknown to you , and against your will. coleman . upon the words of a dying man , and upon the expectation i have of salvation , i tell your lordship , that there is not a book nor paper in the world , that i have laid aside voluntary . l. c. j. no , perhaps you have burnt them . coleman . not , by the living god. l. c. j. i hope mr. coleman you will not say no manner of way . coleman . for my correspondence these two last years past , i have given an account of every letter ; but those that were common letters , and those books that were in my house , what became of them i know not ; they were common letters that i use to write every day , a common journal what past at home and abroad , my men they writ e'm out of that book . l. c. j. what became of those letters ? coleman . i had no letters about this business , but what i have declared to the house of commons , that is , letters from st. germans , which i owned to the house of commons ; and i had no methodical correspondence , and i never valued them nor regarded them , but as they came , i destroyed them . l. c. j. i remember the last letter that is given in evidence against you , discovers what mighty hopes there was , that the time was now come wherein that pestilent heresie , that hath domineer'd in this northern part of the world , should be extirpated ; and that there never was greater hopes of it since our queen maries reign . pray mr. coleman , was that the concluding letter in this affair ? coleman . give me leave to say it upon my dying , i have not one letter , &c. l. c. j. what though you burnt your letters , you may recollect the contents . coleman . i had none since . l. c. j. between god and your conscience be it , i have other apprehensions ; and you deserve your sentence vpon you for your offences , that visibly appear out of your own papers , that you have not , and cannot deny . coleman . i am satisfied . but seeing my time is but short , may i not be permitted to have some immediate friends , and my poor wife to have her freedom to speak with me , and stay with me that little time that i have , that i might speak something to her in order to her living and my dying . l. c. j. you say well , and it is a hard case to deny it ; but i tell you what hardens my heart , the insolencies of your party , the roman catholicks i mean , that they every day offer , which is indeed a proof of their plot , that they are so bold and impudent , and such secret murders committed by them , as would harden any mans heart to do the common favours of justice and charity , that to mankind is usually done : they are so bold and insolent , that i think it is not to be endured in a protestant kingdom ; but for my own parlicular , i think it is a very hard thing for to deny a man the company of his wife , and his friends , so it be done with caution and prudence ; remember that the plot is on foot , and i do not know what arts the priests have , and what tricks they use ; and therefore have a care that no papers nor any such thing , be sent from him . coleman . i do not design it i am sure . l. c. j. but for the company of his wife and his near friends , or any thing in that kind , that may be for his eternal good , and as much for his present satisfaction that he can receive now in the condition that be is in , let him have it , but do it with care and caution . cap. richardson . what , for them to be private alone ? l. c. j. his wife , only she , god forbid else . nor shall you not be deny'd any protestant minister . coleman . but shall not my cosin coleman have liberty to come to me . l. c. j. yes , with mr. richardson . col. or his servant ; because it is a great trouble for him to attend always . l. c. j. if it be his servant , or any he shall appoint , 't is all one , mr. richardsson , use him as reasonably as may be , considering the condition he is in . court. have a care of your prisoner . on tuesday the third of december following , ( being the day of his execution ) mr. coleman was drawn on a sledge from newgate to tyburn and being come thither , he declared , that he had been a roman catholick for many years ; and that he thanked god ▪ he died in that religion . and he said , he did not think that religion at all prejudicial to the king and government . the sheriff told him if he had any thing to say by way of confession or con●●●●ion , he mig●● proceed , otherwise it was not seasonable for him to go 〈…〉 expressions . and being asked if he knew any thing of the 〈…〉 of sir edmondbury godfry , he declared upon the 〈…〉 he knew not any thing of it ; for that he was 〈…〉 . then after some private prayers and ejaculations to 〈…〉 ●he sentence was executed , he was hanged by the neck , cut 〈◊〉 alive , his bowels burnt , and himself 〈◊〉 . ; finis . a true and perfect account of the examination, confession, trial, condemnation and execution of joan perry, and her two sons, john and richard perry, for the supposed murder of will. harrison, gent being one of the most remarkable occurrences which hath happened in the memory of man. sent in a letter (by sir thomas overbury, of burton, in the county of gloucester, knt. and one of his majesty's justices of the peace) to thomas shirly, doctor of physick, in london. also mr. harrison's own account how he was conveyed to turky, and there made a slave above years, when his master (who bought him there) dying, he return'd to england; in the mean while, supposed to be murdered by his man-servant, who falsly accused his own mother and brother as guilty of the same, and were all three executed for it on broadway-hills, in gloucestershire. overbury, thomas, sir, d. . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing o a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true and perfect account of the examination, confession, trial, condemnation and execution of joan perry, and her two sons, john and richard perry, for the supposed murder of will. harrison, gent being one of the most remarkable occurrences which hath happened in the memory of man. sent in a letter (by sir thomas overbury, of burton, in the county of gloucester, knt. and one of his majesty's justices of the peace) to thomas shirly, doctor of physick, in london. also mr. harrison's own account how he was conveyed to turky, and there made a slave above years, when his master (who bought him there) dying, he return'd to england; in the mean while, supposed to be murdered by his man-servant, who falsly accused his own mother and brother as guilty of the same, and were all three executed for it on broadway-hills, in gloucestershire. overbury, thomas, sir, d. . harrison, william, fl. . , [ ] p. printed for john atkinson, near the chapter-house, in st. paul's church-yard, london : [ ] date of publication from wing. reproduction of the original in the cambridge university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng harrison, william, fl. -- early works to . perry, joan, d. -- early works to . perry, richard, d. -- early works to . perry, john, d. -- early works to . kidnapping -- england -- early works to . trials (murder) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - andrew kuster sampled and proofread - andrew kuster text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true and perfect account of the examination , confession , trial , condemnation and execution of joan perry , and her two sons , john and richard perry , for the supposed murder of will. harrison , gent. being one of the most remarkable occurrences which hath happened in the memory of man. sent in a letter ( by sir thomas overbury , of burton , in the county of gloucester , knt. and one of his majesty's justices of the peace ) to thomas shirly , doctor of physick , in london . also mr. harrison's own account how he was conveyed to turkey , and there made a slave above two years , when his master ( who bought him there ) dying , he returned to england ; being , in the mean while , supposed to be murdered by his man-servant , who falsely accused his own mother and brother as guilty of the same , and were all three executed for it on broadway-hills , in gloucestershire . london : printed for john atkinson , near the chapter-house , in st. paul's church-yard . licensed , september , . roger l'estrange . a true and perfect account of the examination , confession , &c. of john perry , and his mother and brother , for the supposed murder of w. harrison , gent. upon thursday the th day of august , , william harrison , steward to the lady viscountess campden , at campden in gloucestershire , being about seventy years of age , walked from campden aforesaid to charringworth , about two miles from thence , to receive his lady's rent ; and , not returning so early as formerly , his wife , mrs. harrison , between eight and nine o'clock that evening , sent her servant , john perry , to meet his master on the way from charringworth : but , neither mr. harrison , nor his servant , john perry , returning that night , the next morning early edward harrison ( william's son ) went towards charringworth , to enquire after his father ; when on the way , meeting perry coming thence , and being informed by him he was not there , they went together to ebrington , a village between charringworth and campden , where they were told , by one daniel , that mr. harrison called at his house the evening before , in his return from charringworth , but stayed not : then they went to paxford , about half a mile thence , where hearing nothing of mr. harrison , they returned towards campden ; and , on the way , hearing of a hat , a band , and comb , taken up in the highway ( between ebrington and campden ) by a poor woman , then leasing in the field , they fought her out , with whom they found the hat , band , and comb , which they knew to be mr. harrison's ; and , being brought by the woman to the place where she found the same ( in the highway , between ebrington and campden , near unto a great furz-brake ) they there searched for mr. harrison , supposing he had been murdered , the hat and comb being hacked and cut , and the band bloody ; but nothing more could be there found . the news hereof , coming to campden , so alarmed the town , that men , women , and children hasted thence in multitudes to search for mr. harrison's supposed dead body , but all in vain . mrs. harrison's fears for her husband , being great , were now much increased ; and having sent her servant perry ( the evening before ) to meet his master , and he not returning that night , it caused a suspicion that he had robbed and murdered him ; and thereupon the said perry was , the next day , brought before a justice of peace ; by whom being examined concerning his master's absence , and his own staying out the night he went to meet him , he gave this account of himself : that , his mistress sending him to meet his master , between eight and nine o'clock in the evening , he went down campden - field , towards charringworth , about a land's length , where meeting one william reed of campden , he acquainted him with his errand ; and further told him , that , it growing dark , he was afraid to go forwards , and would therefore return and fetch his young master's horse , and return with him ; he did , to mr. harrison's court-gate , where they parted , and he staid still : one pierce coming by , he went again , with him , about a bow's-shot into the fields , and returned with him likewise to his master's gate , where they also parted : and then , he the said john perry saith , he went into his master's hen-roost , where he lay about an hour , but slept not ; and , when the clock struck twelve , rose , and went towards charringworth , 'till ( a great mist arising ) he lost his way , and so lay the rest of the night under a hedge ; and at day-break , on friday morning , went to charringworth , where he enquired for his master of one edward plaisterer , who told him he had been with him the afternoon before , and received twenty-three pounds of him , but staid not long with him : he then went to william curtis , of the same town , who likewise told him , he heard his master was at his house the day before , but , being not at home , did not see him : after which , he saith , he returned homewards , ( it being about five o'clock in the morning ) when , on the way , he met his master's son , with whom he went to ebrington , paxford , &c. as hath been related . reed , pierce , plaisterer , and curtis , being examined , affirmed what perry had said concerning them to be true . perry being then asked , by the justice of the peace , how he , who was afraid to go to charringworth at nine o'clock , became so bold as to go thither at twelve ? answered , that at nine o'clock it was dark , but at twelve the moon shone . being further asked , why , returning twice home , after his mistress had sent him to meet his master , and staying till twelve o'clock , he went not into the house , to know whether his master were come home , before he went a third time , at that time of night , to look after him ? answered , that he knew his master was not come home , because he saw light in his chamber-window , which never used to be there so late when he was at home . yet , notwithstanding this that perry had said for his staying forth that night , it was not thought fit to discharge him till further enquiry were made after mr. harrison ; and accordingly he continued in custody at campden , sometimes in an inn there , and sometimes in the common prison , from saturday august the th , to the friday following ; during which time he was again examined at campden by the aforesaid justice of the peace , but confessed nothing more than before ; nor at that time could any further discovery be made what was become of mr. harrison : but it hath been said , that , during his restraint at campden , he told some ( who prest him to confess what he knew concerning his master ) that a tinker had killed him ; and to others he said , a gentleman's servant of the neighbourhood had robbed and murdered him ; and others again he told , that he was murdered , and hid in a bean-rick in campden , where search was ( in vain ) made for him . at length he gave out , that , were he again carried before the justice , he would discover that to him , he would discover to no-body else : and thereupon he was ( friday august the th ) again brought before the justice of peace , who first examined him , and asking him whether he would yet confess what was become of his master , he answered , he was murdered , but not by him . the justice of peace then telling him , that , if he knew him to be murdered , he knew likewise by whom he was ; so he acknowledged he did ; and being urged to confess what he knew concerning it , affirmed that it was his mother and his brother that had murdered his master . the justice of peace then advised him to consider what he said , telling him , that he feared he might be guilty of his master's death , and that he should not draw more innocent blood upon his head ; for what he now charged his mother and brother with , might cost them their lives ; but , he affirming he spoke nothing but the truth , and that , if he were immediately to die , he would justify it , the justice desired him to declare how and when they did it . he then told him , that his mother and his brother had lain at him , ever since he came into his master's service , to help them to money , telling him how poor they were , and it was in his power to relieve them , by giving them notice when his master went to receive his lady's rents , for they would then way-lay and rob him : and further said , that upon the thursday morning his master went to charringworth , going of an errand into the town , he met his brother in the street , whom he then told whither his master was going , and if he way-laid him , he might have his money : and further said , that in the evening his mistress sent him to meet his master , he met his brother in the street , before his master's gate , going ( as he said ) to meet his master , and so they went together to the church-yard , about a stone 's throw from mr. harrison's gate , where they parted , he going the foot-way , cross the church-yard , and his brother keeping the great road , round the church ; but in the highway , beyond the church , met again , and so went together , the way leading to charringworth , till they came to a gate about a bow 's shoot from campden church , that goes into a ground of the lady campden's , called the conygree ( which , to those who have a key to go through the garden , is the next way from that place to mr. harrison's house ) ; when they came near unto that gate , he , the said john perry , saith he told his brother , he did believe his master was just gone into the conygree , ( for it was then so dark they could not discern any man so as to know him ) but perceiving one to go into that ground , and knowing there was no way ( but for those who had a key ) through the gardens , concluded it was his master ; and so told his brother , if he followed him he might have his money , and he , in the mean time , would walk a turn in the fields , which accordingly he did ; and then following his brother , about the middle of the conygree found his master on the ground , his brother upon him , and his mother standing by ; and being asked , whether his master were then dead ? answered no ; for that , after he came to them , his master cried , ah rogues , will you kill me ? at which , he told his brother , he hoped he would not kill his master ; who replied , peace , peace , you are fool , and so strangled him ; which haveing done , he took a bag of money out of his pocket , and threw it into his mother's lap ; and then he and his brother carried his master 's dead body into the garden adjoining to the conygree , where they consulted what to do with it ; and at length agreed to throw it into the great sink , by wallington's mill , behind the garden ; but said , his mother and brother bad him go up to the court ( next the house ) to hearken whether any one were stirring , and they would throw the body into the sink : and being asked , whether it were there ? he said , he knew not , for that he left it in the garden ; but his mother and brother said they would throw it there ; and if it were not there , he knew not were it was , for that he returned no more to them , but went into the court-gate , which goes into the town , where he met with john pierce , with whom he went into the field , and again returned with him to his master's gate ; after which , he went into the hen-roost , where he lay till twelve o'clock that night , but slept not ; and having ( when he came from his mother and brother ) brought with him his master's hat , band , and comb , which he laid in the hen-roost ; he carried the said hat , band , and comb , and threw them ( after he had given them three or four cuts with his knife ) in the highway , where they were after found : and being asked , what he intended by so doing ? said , he did it that it might be believed his master had been there robbed and murdered ; and haveing thus disposed of his hat , band , and comb , he went towards charringworth , &c. as hath been related . upon this confession and accusation , the justice of peace gave order for the apprehending of joan and richard perry , the mother and brother of john perry , and for searching the sink where mr. harrison's body was said to be thrown ; which was accordingly done , but nothing of him could be there found : the fish-pools likewise ( in campden ) were drawn and searched , but nothing could be there found neither : so that some were of opinion , the body might be hid in the ruins of campden-house , burnt in the late wars , and not unfit for such a concealment ; where was likewise search made , but all in vain . saturday august the th , joan and richard perry , together with john perry , were brought before the justice of peace , who acquainting the said joan and richard with what john had laid to their charge , they denied all , with many imprecations on themselves , if they were in the least guilty of any thing of which they were accused : but john on the other side affirmed ( to their faces ) that he had spoken nothing but the truth , and that they had murdered his master ; further telling them , that he could never be quiet for them , since he came into into his master's service , being continually followed by them , to help them to money , which they told him he might do , by giveing them notice when his master went to receive his lady's rents ; and that he meeting his brother richard in campden town , the thursday morning his master went to charringworth , told him whither he was going , and upon what errand . richard confessed he met his brother that morning , and spoke with him , but nothing passed between them to that purpose ; and both he and his mother told john , he was a villain to accuse them wrongfully , as he had done : but john on the other side affirmed , that he had spoken nothing but the truth , and would justify it to his death . one remarkable circumstance happened in these prisoners return from the justice of the peace's house to campden , viz. richard perry ( following a good distance behind his brother john ) pulling a clout out of his pocket , dropped a ball of inkle , which one of his guard taking up , he desired him to restore it , saying it was only his wife's hair-lace ; but the party opening of it , and finding a slip-knot at the end , went and shewed it unto john , who was then a good distance before , and so knew nothing of the dropping and taking up of this inkle . ; but being shewed it , and asked whether he knew it , shook his head and said , yea , to his sorrow ; for that was the string his brother strangled his master with . this was sworn upon the evidence at their trial. the morrow being the lord's day , they remained at campden , where the minister of the place designing to speak to them ( if possible to persuade them to repentance , and a farther confession ) they were brought to church ; and in their way thither , passing by richard's house , two of his children meeting him , he took the lesser in his arm , leading the other in his hand , when on a sudden both their noses fell a bleeding , which was looked upon as ominous . here it will be no impertinent digression to tell , how the year before mr. harrison had his house broke open between eleven and twelve o'clock at noon , upon campden market-day , whilst himself and his whole family were at the lecture ; a ladder being set up to a window of the second story , and an iron bar wrenched thence with a plough-share , which was left in the room , and sevenscore pounds in money carried away , the authors of which robbery could never be found . after this , and not many weeks before mr. harrison's absence , his servant perry , one evening , in campden garden , made an hideous out-cry , whereat some who heard it coming in , met him running , and seemingly frighted , with a sheep-pick in his hand , to whom he told a formal story , how he had been set upon by two men in white , with naked swords , and how he defended himself with his sheep-pick , the handle whereof was cut in two or three places ; and likewise a key in his pocket , which he said was done with one of their swords . these passages the justice of peace having before heard , and calling to mind , upon perry's confession , asked him first concerning the robbery , when his master lost sevenscore pounds out of his house , at noon-day , whether he knew who did it ? who answered , yes , it was his brother : and being further asked , whether he were then with him ? he answered , no , he was then at church ; but that he gave him notice of the money , and told him in which room it was , and where he might have a ladder that would reach the window ; and that his brother afterwards told him he had the money , and had buried it in his garden ; and that they were at michaelmas next to have divided it . whereupon search was made in the garden , but no money could be there found . and being further asked concerning that other passage , of his being assaulted in the garden , he confessed it was all a fiction ; and that , having a design to rob his master , he did it , that rogues ( being believed to haunt the place , when his master was robbed ) might be thought to have done it . at the next assizes , which were held in september following , john , joan , and richard perry , had two indictments found against them ; one for breaking into william harrison's house , and robbing him of l . in the year ; the other for robbing and murdering the said william harrison , the th of august , . upon the last indictment , the then judge of assizes , sir christopher turner , would not try them , because the body was not found ; but they were then tried upon the other indictment for robbery , to which they pleaded not guilty ; but , some whispering behind them , they soon after pleaded guilty , humbly begging the benefit of his majesty's gracious pardon and act of oblivion , which was granted them . but , tho' they pleaded guilty to this indictment , being thereunto prompted ( as is probable ) by some who were unwilling to lose time , and trouble the court with their trial , in regard the act of oblivion pardoned them ; yet they all , afterwards , and at their deaths , denied that they were guilty of that robbery , or that they knew who did it . yet at this assize , as several credible persons have affirmed , john perry still persisted in his story , that his mother and brother had murdered his master ; and further added , that they had attempted to poison him in the gaol , so that he durst neither eat nor drink with them . at the next assizes , which were the spring following , john , joan , and richard perry , were by the then judge of assize , sir b. hyde , tried upon the indictment of murder , and pleaded thereunto ( severally ) not guilty ; and when john's confession before the justice was proved , viva voce , by several witnesses who heard the same , he told them , he was then mad , and knew not what he said . the other two , richard and joan perry , said , that they were wholly innocent of what they were accused ; and that they knew nothing of mr. harrison's death , nor what was become of him ; and richard said , that his brother had accused others , as well as him , to have murdered his master ; which the judge bidding him prove , he said , that most of those that had given evidence against him knew it ; but naming none , not any one spoke to it , and so the jury found them all three guilty . some few days after , being brought to the place of their execution , which was on broadway-hill , within sight of campden , the mother ( being reputed a witch , and to have so bewitched her sons , they could confess nothing while she lived ) was first executed : after which , richard being upon the ladder , professed , as he had done all along , that he was wholly innocent of the fact for which he was then to die ; and that he knew nothing of mr. harrison's death , nor what was become of him ; and did , with great earnestness , beg and beseech his brother ( for the satisfaction of the whole world , and his own conscience ) to declare what he knew concerning him ; but he , with a dogged and surly carriage , told the people , he was not obliged to confess to them ; yet , immediately before his death , said , he knew nothing of his master's death , nor what was become of him , but they might hereafter ( possibly ) hear . for sir thomas overbury , knight . honoured sir , in obedience to your commands , i give you this true account of my being carried away beyond the seas , my continuance there , and return home . on a thursday , in the afternoon , in harvest-time , i went to charringworth , to demand rents due to my lady campden , at which time the tenants were busy in the fields , and late e're they came home , which occasioned my stay there 'till the close of the evening . i expected a considerable sum , but received only . and no more . in my return home ( in the narrow passage among ebrington furzes ) there met me one horseman , and said , art thou there ? and i , fearing he would ride over me , struck his horse over the nose ; whereupon he struck at me with his sword several blows , and run it into my side ; while i ( with my little cane ) made my defence as well as i could : at last another came behind me , and run me into the thigh , laid hold on the collar of my doublet , and drew me to a hedge , near that place ; then came in another : they did not take my money , but mounted me behind one of them , drew my arms about his middle , and fastened my wrists together with something that had a spring-lock to it , as i conceived , by hearing it give a snap as they put it on ; then they threw a great cloak over me , and carried me away : in the night they alighted at a hay-rick , which stood near unto a stone-pit , by a wall-side , where they took away my money , about two hours before day ( as i heard one of them tell the other he thought it to be then ) they tumbled me into the stone-pit ; they staid ( as i thought ) about an hour at the hay-rick , when they took horse again ; one of them bad me come out of the pit ; i answered , they had my money already ; and asked what they would do with me , whereupon he struck me again , drew me out , and put a great quantity of money in my pockets , and mounted me again after the same manner ; and on the friday , about sun-setting , they brought me to a lone house upon a heath , ( by a thicket of bushes ) where they took me down almost dead , being sorely bruised with the carriage of the money : when the woman of the house saw that i could neither stand nor speak , she asked them whether , or no , they had brought a dead man ? they answered , no , but a friend that was hurt , and they were carrying him to a surgeon . she answered , if they did not make haste , their friend would be dead before they could bring him to one . there they laid me on cushions , and suffered none to come into the room but a little girl . there we staid all night , they giving me some broth and strong waters : in the morning , very early , they mounted me as before , and on saturday night they brought me to a place where were two or three houses , in one of which i lay all night on cushions by their bed-side : on sunday morning they carried me from thence , and about three or four o'clock , they brought me to a place by the sea-side , called deal , where they laid me down on the ground ; and one of them staying by me , the other two walked a little off , to meet a man , with whom they talked , and , in their discourse , i heard them mention seven pounds ; after which they went away together , and about half an hour after returned . the man ( whose name , as i after heard , was wrenshaw ) said , he feared i would die before he could get me on board . then presently they put me into a boat , and carried me on ship-board , where my wounds were dressed . i remained in the ship ( as near as i could reckon ) about six weeks , in which time i was indifferently recovered of my wounds and weakness . then the master of the ship came and told me , ( and the rest who were in the same condition ) that he discovered three turkish ships : we all offered to fight in the defence of the ship and ourselves , but he commanded us to keep close , and said he would deal with them well enough : a little while after he called us up , and when we came on the deck , we saw two turkish ships close by us ; into one of which we were put , and placed in a dark hole , where how long we continued before we were landed , i know not : when we were landed , they led us two days journey , and put us into a great house , or prison , where we remained four days and a half ; and then came to us eight men to view us , who seemed to be officers ; they called us and examined us of our trades and callings , which every one answered : one said he was a chirurgeon ; another , that he was a broad-cloth-weaver , and i ( after two or three demands ) said i had some skill in physick : we three were set by , and taken by three of those eight men that came to view us : it was my chance to be chosen by a grave physician of eighty-seven years of age , who lived near to smyrna , who had formerly been in england , and knew crowland in lincolnshire , which he preferred before all other places in england : he employed me to keep his still-house , and gave me a silver bowl , double gilt , to drink in ; my business was most in that place ; but but once he set me to gather cotton-wool , which i not doing to his mind , he struck me down to the ground , and after drew his steletto to stab me ; but i holding up my hands to him , he gave a stamp , and turned from me ; for which i render thanks to my lord and saviour jesus christ , who staid his hand and preserved me . i was there about a year and three quarters , and then my master fell sick on a thursday , and sent for me ; and calling me , as he used , by the name of boll , told me he should die , and bad me shift for myself : he died on saturday following , and i presently hastened with my bowl to a port almost a day 's journey distant ; the way to which place i knew , having been twice there employed by my master about the carriage of his cotton-wool : when i came thither , i addressed myself to two men who came out of a ship of hamburgh , which ( as they said ) was bound for portugal , within three or four days . i enquired of them for an english ship ; they answered , there was none . i entreated them to take me into their ship ; they answered , they durst not , for fear of being discovered by the searchers , which might occasion the forfeiture , not only of goods , but also of their lives : i was very importunate with them , but could not prevail ; they left me to wait on providence , which at length brought another out of the same ship , to whom i made known my condition , craving his assistance for my transportation ; he made me the like answer as the former , and was stiff in his denial , till the sight of my bowl put him to a pause : he returned to the ship , and after half an hour's space he came back again , accompanied with another seaman , and for my bowl undertook to transport me ; but told me , i must be contented to lie down in the keel , and endure much hardship , which i was content to do , to gain my liberty ; so they took me on board , and placed me below in the vessel in a very uneasy place , and obscured me with boards and other things , where i lay undiscovered , notwithstanding the strict search that was made in the vessel : my two chapmen , who had my bowl , honestly furnished me with victuals daily , until we arrived at lisbon in portugal , where ( as soon as the master had left the ship , and was gone into the city ) they set me on shore moneyless to shift for myself . i knew not what course to take ; but , as providence led me , i went up into the city , and came into a fair street ; and being weary , i turned my back to a wall , and leaned upon my staff : over-against me were four gentlemen discoursing together ; after a while one of them came to me , and spake to me in a language that i understood not : i told him i was an englishman , and understood not what he spake ; he answered me in plain english , that he understood me , and was himself born near wisbich in lincolnshire ; then i related to him my sad condition , and he taking compassion on me , took me with him , provided for me lodging and diet , and by his interest with a master of a ship , bound for england , procured my passage ; and bringing me on ship-board , he bestowed wine and strong waters on me , and at his return gave me eight stivers , and commended me to the care of the master of the ship , who landed me safe at dover , from whence i made shift to get to london , where being furnished with necessaries , i came into the country . thus , honoured sir , i have given you a true account of my great sufferings , and happy deliverance by the mercy and goodness of god , my most gracious father in jesus christ , my saviour and redeemer ; to whose name be ascribed all honour , praise , and glory . i conclude and rest , your worship 's , in all dutiful respect , william harrison . sir , it has not been any forgetfulness in me , you have no sooner heard from me , but my unhappy distemper seizing on my right hand soon after my coming down into the country , so that till now i have been wholly deprived of the use of it . i have herewith sent you a short narrative of that no less strange than unhappy business , which some years since happened in my neighbourhood ; the truth of every particular whereof i am able to attest , and i think it may very well be reckoned among the most remarkable occurrences of this age : you may dispose of it as you please , and in whatever else i can serve you , you may freely command me , as , sir , your most affectionate kinsman , and humble servant , burton , aug. , . tho. overbury . many question the truth of this account mr. harrison gives of himself , and his transportation , believing he was never out of england : but there is no question of perry's telling a formal false story to hang himself , his mother , and his brother : and since this , of which we are assured , is no less incredible than that of which we doubt , it may induce us to suspend hard thoughts of mr. harrison , 'till time , the great discoverer of truth , shall bring to light this dark and mysterious business . that mr. harrison was absent from his habitation , employment , and relations , near two years , is certain ; and , if not carried away , ( as he affirms ) no probable reason can be given for his absence ; he living plentifully and happily in the service of that honourable family , to which he had been then related above fifty years , with the reputation of a just and faithful servant ; and , having all his days been a man of sober life and conversation , cannot now reasonably be thought , in his old-age , so far to have misbehaved himself , as in such a manner voluntarily to have forsaken his wife , his children , and his stewardship , and to leave behind him ( as he then did ) a considerable sum of his lady's money in his house . we cannot therefore , in reason and charity , but believe that mr. harrison was forcibly carried away ; but by whom , or by whose procurement , is the question . those whom he affirms did it , he withal affirms never before to have seen ; and that he saw not his servant perry , nor his mother , nor his brother , the evening he was carried away . that he was spirited ( as some are said to have been ) is no ways probable , in respect he was an old and infirm man , and taken from the most inland part of the nation : and if sold , as himself apprehends he was , for seven pounds , that would not recompence the trouble and charge of his conveyance to the sea side . some therefore have had hard thoughts of his eldest son , not knowing whom else to suspect ; and believe the hopes of the stewardship , which he afterwards ( by the lord campden's favour ) enjoyed , might induce him to contrive his father's removal ; and this they are the more confirmed in from his misbehaviour in it : but , on the other side , 't is hard to think the son should be knowing of his father 's transportation ; and , consequently , of these unhappy persons ' innocency , as to the murder of him , and yet prosecute them to death , as he did ; and , when condemned , should be the occasion of their being conveyed above twenty miles , to suffer near campden , and to procure john perry to be there hanged in chains , where he might daily see him ; and himself to stand at the foot of the ladder , when they were all executed , as likewise he did . these considerations , as they make it improbable the son should be privy to his father 's transportation , so they render the whole matter the more dark and mysterious ; which we must therefore leave unto him who alone knoweth all things , in his due time , to reveal and bring to light. finis . the tryal and condemnation of george borosky alias borotzi, christopher vratz and john stern for the barbarous murder of thomas thynn, esq. together with the tryal of charles john count coningmark, an accessary before the fact to the same murder who was acquitted of the said offence : at the sessions in the old bailey, tuesday february , . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and condemnation of george borosky alias borotzi, christopher vratz and john stern for the barbarous murder of thomas thynn, esq. together with the tryal of charles john count coningmark, an accessary before the fact to the same murder who was acquitted of the said offence : at the sessions in the old bailey, tuesday february , . borodzycz, george, d. . england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). p., [ ] leaf of plates : port. printed for thomas basset, london : . reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng thynne, thomas, - . trials (murder) -- england -- london. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion march . . we do appoint thomas basset to print the tryals of charles john count coningsmark , george borosky , christopher vratz , and john stern , for the murder of thomas thynn , esquire . and that no other person presume to print the same . john moor mayor . fr. pemberton . the tryal and condemnation of george borosky alias borotzi , christopher vratz , and john stern ; for the barbarous murder of thomas thynn , esq together with the tryal of charles john count coningsmark , as accessary before the fact to the same murder . who was acquitted of the said offence . at the sessions in the old bailey , tuesday february . . london , printed for thomas basset at the george near st. dunstan's church in fleetstreet . . portrait of thomas thynn thomas thynn of long leate in com. wilts esq r. who was barbarously murdered on sunday y e th feb : / the tryal of george borosky alias boratzi , christopher vratz , john stern , and charles john count conings mark . on tuesday the th . of february . the sessions of the peace for the city of london , and of oyer and terminer for the city of london and county of middlesex , which was adjourned over till this day , was held at the sessions-house in the old bayley : and there having been an indictment found at hicks's - hall by the grand jury for the county of middlesex against charles george borosky , christopher vratz and john stern for murdering thomas thynn esq and against charles john count coningsmark as accessory before the fact , the said persons being in newgate , were brought to the barr to be arraigned and tryed : and they being forreigners , and interpreter was sworn to acquaint them in a language they understood , what they were accused of . cl. of the crown . charles borosky hold up thy hand . ( which he did . ) christopher vratz hold up thy hand . ( which he did . ) john stern hold up thy hand . ( which he did . ) charles john coningsmark hold up thy hand . ( which he did . ) tou stand indicted in the county of middlesex by the names of charles george borosky , late of the parish of st. martins in the fields , in the county of middlesex , labourer ; otherwise called george boratzi of the same parish and county , labourer ; christopher vratz of the same parish and county , gentleman ; john stern of the same parish and county , gentleman ; and charles john coningsmark of the same parish and county , esquire ; otherwise called john coningsmark of the same parish and county , esquire : for that you the said charles george borosky alias boratzi , christopher vratz and john stern , not having god before your eyes , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , upon the twelfth day of february , in the thirty fourth year of the reign of our sovereign lord king charles the second , with force and arms in the parish of st. martins in the fields in the county of middlesex aforesaid , in and upon thomas thynn , esquire ; in the peace of god , and our said sovereign lord the king , then and there being feloniously , wilfully , and of your malice afore-thought , did make an assault . and that thou the said george borosky alias boratzi , a certain blunderbuss of the value of five shillings , the said blunderbuss being then charged with gunpowder , and four leaden bullets ; which said blunderbuss thou the said george borosky alias boratzi in both thy hands so as aforesaid , loaden to and against the said thomas thynn then and there hadst and heldest . and that thou the aforesaid george borosky alias boratzi knowing the blunderbuss aforesaid , to be so as aforesaid , charged with gunpowder and leaden bullets , to and against the said thomas thynn then and there , with force of arms , feloniously , wilfully , and of thy malice afore-thought , didst discharge and shoot off . and that thou the said george borosky alias boratzi , with the said leaden bullets shot and sent out of the blunderbuss aforesaid , by the violence and force of the gunpowder aforesaid : and by thee the said george borosky alias boratzi so as aforesaid discharged and shot off , the said thomas thynn in and upon the right-side of the body of the said thomas thynn , near the short ribs of the right-side of the body of the said thomas thynn then and there feloniously , wilfully , and of thy malice aforethought didst strike and wound ; giving unto him the said thomas thynn then and there with the leaden bullets aforesaid , so as aforesaid shot and sent out of the blunderbuss aforesaid by force and violence of the gunpowder aforesaid , by thee the said george borosky alias boratzi ; so as aforesaid discharged and sent out , in and upon the right side of the body of him the said thomas thynn near the short pibbs , on the right-side of him the said thomas thynn four mortal wounds , every one of them of the breadth of one inch , and of the depth of six inches ; of which said mortal wounds , be the said thomas thynn from the said twelfth day of february in the th year aforesaid , unto the thirteenth day of the same moneth of february at the parish of st. martins in the fields aforesaid , did languish and lived languishing : on which said thirteenth day of february , in the th . year aforesaid , he the said thomas thynn at the parish of st. martins in the fields aforesaid , of the mortal wounds so as aforesaid given dyed . and that you the said christopher vratz and john sterne , then that is to say at the time of the felony and murder aforesaid , by the said george borosky alias boratzi ; so as aforesaid feloniously , wilfully and of his malice afore-thought , done and committed , then and there feloniously , willfully and of your malice afore thought , by force and arms were present , aiding , comforting , abetting , assisting and maintaining the said george borosky alias boratzi , the felony and murder aforesaid feloniously , willfully and of his malice afore thought to do and commit . and so you the said george borosky alias boratzi , christopher vratz and john sterne , the said thomas thynn in manner and forme aforesaid , feloniously , wilfully and of your malice afore-thought didst kill and murder against the peace of our sovereign lord the king , his crawn and dignity . and that thou the said charles john coningsmark before the felony and murder aforesaid , by the said george borosky alias boratzi , christopher vratz and john sterne in manner and forme aforesaid , feloniously , wilfully and of their malice aforethought , done and committed , to wit , the said twelfth day of february , in the th . year aforesaid at the parish of st. martins in the fields aforesaid them the said george borosky alias boratzi , christopher vratz and john stern the felony and murder aforesaid , in manner and form aforesaid , felloniously to do and commit feloniously , willfully and of thy malice afore-thought didst stir up , counsel , perswade and procure against the peace of our sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity . l. ch. just . why , you must read this to them now in their language , or else they can't understand it . l. ch. just . north. you that are the interpreter , tell them that you are going to interpret the indictment to them by degrees . mr. vandore . yes , my lord , i will. l. ch. just . don't read all the circumstantials , but only the substance of the indictment . then the clerke of the crown went near the bar , and dictated to the interpreter deliberately , who interpreted it to the prisoners . l. ch. just . well , you have told them the substance of it , that they are indicted for killing mr. thynn . mr. vandore . yes . l. ch. just . well , what says the first man ? cl. of cr. i asked him if he be guilty of the murder whereof he stands indicted , and he says he is not guilty . l. ch. just . does he say so ? mr. vandore . yes , he says he is not guilty . l. ch. just . why now tell him the formality , that he must put himself upon the jury here . then sir nathaniel johnson was sworn interpreter . l. ch. just . ask him this question . tell him he is accused of the murder of mr. thomas thynn ; ask him if he be guilty , or not guilty . mr. vandore . he says he is not guilty , my lord. i ask'd him just now . l. ch. just. then sir nathaniel johnson , if you can make him to understand it , tell him ; that our manner of tryal here is by twelve men , and that is by putting himself upon the country , and therefore ask him , how he will be tryed . tell him that the method is by saying , by god and the countrey . sir n. johnson . my lord , he is a very dull kind of man , he knows not how to answer , nor what to say ; nor won't say any thing , that is the truth of it . l. ch. just . ask him if he be willing to be tryed after the manner of the english . sir n. johnson . yes , he says he is willing to be tryed according to the fashion of the english . l. ch. just . north. he hath pleaded not guilty , and the other follows of course . l. ch. just . ask the other , the captain , the same thing . sir n. johnson . he desires a french interpreter , for he speaks french. l. ch. just. surely here are enough people that understand french , but ask him if he does not understand english . sir n. johnson . he can understand some he says . l. ch. just . then ask him , whether he be guilty , or not . sir n. johnson . he says he is not guilty , my lord. l. ch. just. now ask mr. stern , but first , ask the captain how he will be tryed . sir n. johnson . he says he will be tryed by god , and half his own country , and half english . l. ch. just , he shall have his request . sir n. johnson . he desires one thing further . l. ch. just . look you sir nathaniel johnson , you must tell him this ; he shall be tryed by half foreiners , and half english ; that is it i suppose he desires . sir n. johnson . my lord , he desires that there may be none of the jury that are any thing a kindred , or relation to mr. thomas thynn , nor any particular friend of his , and he is satisfied . l. ch. just . no , there shall not , we will take care of that . now ask mr. stern then the like question . sir n. johnson . my lord , he says he is not guilty . l. ch. just . ask him too how he will be tried ; whether by a jury ? sir n. johnson . he says hee 's content to be tried as the others are , by half strangers , and half english . l. ch. just . now then ask my lord conningsmark what he says . mr. thynn , he speaks english , my lord. l. ch. just . but not well enough may be , to understand the whole . l. ch. just . north. sir nathaniel , what does he say ? sir n. johnson . my lord , he says it is a concern of his life , and therefore he desires he may have not only one interpreter , but others : he desires he may have two or three , that they may make no mistake . l. ch. just . very well . sir n. johnson . he says that i understand the dutch language ; but his life and honour are concerned , and therefore he would have three or four . l. ch. just. who would he have ? sir n. johnson . sir tho. thynn said they had one that was brought by them . mr. thynn . that is vandore , who is sworn already . l. ch. just . look you , sir nathaniel , tell my lord , if he pleases , he shall have a french interpreter ; for i know he speaks that language very well . sir n. johnson . my lord , he says , that high dutch is his natural language , and he can express himself best in that . then one vanbaring was called for by the count , but did not appear . l. ch. bar. sir n. johnson , you must ask the count whether he be guilty of the indictment , as accessory before the fact. sir n. johnson . i have asked my lord , and not guilty he answers . cl. of the cr. how will you be tried ? sir n. johnson . he says , he will be tried by god and half his own countrey , or half foreigners and half english ; and he desires they may be persons of some quality , as they use to treat persons of his quality , and strangers . l. ch. just. there shall be such strangers , tell him . you have merchants of good account , i suppose , upon this pannel . under-sheriffe . yes , my lord , they are all such . sir n. johnson . he desires he may be tried distinctly from the others . l. ch. just . that cannot be : but look you sir , pray tell my lord this , that though the evidence must be given , and the jury must be charged all together , yet in this case we will distinguish his case to the jury , if there be occasion . l. ch. bar. and his evidence will come distrinct . mr. vandore . my lord , he asks this question of your lordship and this honourable court , if it be agreeable , and according to the justice of this nation , that my lord may be allowed two or three days delay , because he is to prepare himself and witnesses for his tryal . sir n. johnson . my lord , he says this , his witnesses are not prepared , and he not having had time to recollect himself , so as to fit himself for his defence , therefore he begs the favour of the court , that he may have a day or two's time to recollect himself . he says he is to answer circumstances with circumstances , my lord ; he says he has some witnesses as to circumstances that are very material to answer such circumstances as are brought against him ; he does not understand the law , my lord , nor has had no time to have any council to inform himself . l. ch. just. you must tell him this , that which he is charged with is matter of fact , that none can instruct him in but himself , council can do him no good in such a case as this . sir n. johnson . my lord , he says , the matters that are objected against him are only circumstances , my lord , and they require an answer , which he can do by other circumstances , and he desires time to re-collect himself , two or three days respite , he desires if it were but a little time , a day or two . mr. thynne . my lord , our witnesses are all ready , and the counsel instructed , and wait here to go on . l. c. j. north. look you , pray will you tell him , when the tryal is once begun , the jury can neither eat nor drink till they have given their verdict ; that is the law , and we can't change the law , therefore we cannot allow him the time he desires . he knows what he is accused of , and has known it a good while , and has had time to recollect himself , and prepare himself . sir n. johns . my lord , he says , the jury are not yet together , nor charged with him , and therefore till the jury are charged , he thinks he may have time , if your lordship please to allow it . l. c. j. look you , you must tell him , that he is to understand , that here is but one indictment against the principals and himself , and we cannot try this by piece-meals ; we cannot try the principals now , and my lord coningsmark another time . sir n. johns . if it must be so , he says , he must throw himself upon your lordship ; he hopes he shall have nothing but what is just and fair , and he hopes your lordship will be of counsel to him , as the fashion of this countrey is ; if any thing arises of matter of law , he desires he may have the advantage of it : and if he can't have a day or two , he says , the innocency of his case will protect him . count coningsmark knowing how innocent he is , won't stick for a day or two , but he will be ready to be tryed as your lordship shall think fit ; he has innocence on his side , and that will protect him . l. c. j. let my lord know , that we will be careful in examining all things that concern him . sir n. johns . he says , he does not fear it , my lord , having to do with such honourable persons , nor doubt it at all . l. c. j. then swear a jury . but look you , my lord coningsmark , consider this , as the gentlemen of the jury come to be sworn , if you do dislike any of them , you may except against them . sir n. johns . my lord , he says , being altogether a stranger here in england , and not knowing any of the persons , he begs the favour of the bench , that he may have the names of those that are returned of the jury , and a little time to consider of it . l. c. j. that we cannot do : all we can do for you is , we will take as much care as we can , that you may have indifferent persons , and persons of quality . l. c. j. north. pray tell him , the law gives him the priviledge of a peremptory challenge . sir n. johns . he says , my lord , he does not know who they are , but they may be persons that are touched , and may have something of evil will or spleen against him . his father served against the king of denmark , and against the poles and the papists , and his father was a protestant , and served the protestant cause . l. c. j. what countrey-men are they , mr. sheriff ? under-sheriff . they are french and dutch most of them , i do not believe there is ever a dane amongst them . l. c. j. we will call all french-men , if he had rather have them than dutch. sir n. johns . he would very gladly have them all high dutch ; if not , that he may have some . l. c. j. i thought he had excepted against the dutch. sir n. johnson . no , against the danes , for his father in the wars burnt their towns. l. c. j. examine them as they come to the book . if there be any of the roman catholick religion , and don't let any such be sworn . mr. sher. pilkington . there is none such amongst them , i dare say . l. c. j. sir nat. johnson , tell my lord , he shall have no roman catholicks at all . sir n. johns . he thanks your lordship . he desires he may have the pannel to look upon , and he hopes that is an easie favour . l. c. j. let him have the pannel , if it will do him any good . he is a stranger , satisfie him in what we can . ( which was delivered to him , and he looked it over : l. c. j. tell him as the jury is called he shall have every one of the outlandish-men and english-men brought before him . sir n. johnson . my lord , he thanks you for this favor . l. ch. baron . sir nath. johnson , tell the count , they call first an english-man , then a foreigner , and they shall be brought to view . l. c. j. pray have you told the other persons , that their time to challenge is before the jury is sworn . sir n. johnson . the polander says he can challenge none , because he knows none . l. c. j. what say the rest . mr. vaudore . they say they know no body , and can except against no body . cl. of cr. call sir will. roberts . [ who appearing , stood up . l. c. j. my lord coningsmark , there is the fore-man . sir n. johnson . he has nothing to say against him . l. c. j. then hold him a book , and swear him . [ which was done . cl. of cr. call mr. downing . interpreter . he says he is no foreigner . l. c. j. then he must not be sworn . cl. of cr. moses charas . [ who appeared . interpret . he has nothing to say against him . but he himself says , he does not speak english , but he desires to speak french. cl. of cr. then tell him in french , he must lay his hand on the book and be sworn , and hearken to his oath . sir fr. winnington . we challenge him for the king. l. c. j. for what cause ? sir fr. winnington . my lord , we take it that we need not shew any cause , unless there be any want of the number in the panel . l. c. j. then we must do him right , and tell him what advantage the law gives him . tell my lord , you that understand english , that this gentleman is challenged for the king , and if the king shew any good cause for it , he must not be sworn , else he must . and the way for him to cause the king's councel to shew their cause , ( if he desire it ) is to challenge all the rest . mr. williams . we wave our challenge ; for the reason why we challenged him was , because he did not understand english , which will be no reason at all . then he was sworn . cl. of cr. sir henry ingoldsby . sir n. johnson . he challenges him , my lord. cl. of cr. sir william gulston . sir n. johnson . he excepts against him , my lord. l. ch. j. does he challenge him in respect of what i said to him about the outlandish gentlemen , that the king is to shew cause ? or how does he challenge him ? interpret . my lord , he says , he hears he is a friend to mr. thynne . l. c. j. well , let him be passed by then . cl. of cr. sir john musters . [ who did not appear . sir n. johnson . he says , my lord , he only desires indifferent persons . cl. of cr. henry herbert , esq sir n. johnson . he challenges him . cl. of cr. richard paget , esq sir n. johnson . he desires to see him . l. c. j. let him be brought into the middle , that he may look upon the prisoners . interpret . he has nothing to say against him . then he was sworn . cl. of cr. james bucgone . interpret . he excepts against him . cl. of cr. claudius derolee . interpret . he excepts against slim too . cl. of cr. charles beelow . interpret . he says he looks like a man , and he does not except against him . and he was sworn . cl. of cr. ralph bucknall , esq interpret . he challenges him . cl. of cr. thomas earsby , esq interpret . he challenges him too . l. c. j. look you , sir nath. johnson , pray tell him he can challenge but twenty . sir n. johnson . he says very well ; he will not do any more . he desires the favour , that those that he challenges may not come near those that are sworn . l. c. j. well , it shall be so ; we will take care of it . cl. of cr. richard gowre , esq sir n. johnson . he excepts against him . cl. of cr. george hocknall , esq interpret . he challenges him . [ but then the count looking in his paper , retracted his challenge , and he was sworn . cl. of cr. peter vandenhagen . interpret . he says nothing to him . then he was sworn . cl. of cr. walter moyle , esq interpret . he does not challenge him . [ he was sworn . cl. of cr. christopher ripkey . interpret . he does not challenge him . [ he was sworn . cl. of cr. thomas henslow , esq interpret . he does not except against him . then he was sworn . cl. of cr. lewis doncarr . interpret . he challenges him . cl. of cr. peter lecane . [ he did not appear . david collivaux . interpret . he challenges him , because he knew mr. thynne , they say . cl. of cr. andrew lodderley . interpret . he challenges him . cl. of cr. james burk . interpret . he challenges him ! cl. of cr. daniel griggion . interpret . he does not challenge him . [ so he was sworn . cl. of cr. robert jordan , esq interpret . he challenges him . cl. of cr. lucy knightley , esq interpret . he challenges him . cl. of cr. john haynes , esq interpret . he does not except against him . [ he was sworn . cl. of cr. lewis le count. interpret . he challenges him . cl. of cr. john belliew . interpret . he challenges him . cl. of cr. james frontein . mr. williams . we challenge him for the king. cl. of cr. john massey . interpret . he challenges him . cl. of cr. andrew primo●● . interpret . he challenges him . cl. of cr. nicholas beufoy . interpret . he challenges him . he says they are all walloons , and therefore he challenges them . l. c. j. why does he except against walloons ? interpret . because they have always served against the swedes . cl. of cr. john lebarr . interpret . he does not except against him . [ and so he was sworn . cl. of cr. cryer , count these , &c. sir will. roberts , bar. jur ' walter moyle , esq moses charas , gent. chr. ripkey , gent. richard pagett , esq tho. henslow , esq charles beelow , gent. dan. griggion , gent. geo. hocknall , esq joh. haynes , esq and pet. vandenhagen , gent. joh. lebarr , gent. then proclamation for information and prosecution was made : and a chair was set for the count , at his request . cl. of cr. gentlemen , look upon the prisoners , you that are sworn , and hearken to their cause ; they stand indicted prout in the indictment , mutatis mutandis — against the peace of our sovereign lord the king , his crown and dignity . upon this indictment they have been arraigned , and thereunto have severally pleaded , not guilty : and for their tryal , have put themselves upon god and their country ; which country you are . your charge is to inquire , whether they or any of them are guilty of the offences whereof they stand indicted , or not guilty . and if you find them or any of them guilty , you are to find what goods or chattels , lands or tenements they had at the time of the felony and murder committed , or at any time since . if you find them or any of them guilty , you are to inquire , whether they or any of them fled for it ; if you find that they or any of them fled for it , you are to inquire of their goods and chattels , as if you had found them guilty ; if you find them or any of them not guilty , nor that they did fly for it , you are to say so , and no more , and hear your evidence . but if you acquit any one of the principals — l. c. j. that is a mistake , it must be all the principals . cl. of cr. if you acquit the principals , you are not to inquire of charles john coningsmark as accessory before . mr. keene . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen that are sworn of this jury , george borosky , alias boratri , christopher vratz , and john sterne , the prisoners at the bar , stand here indicted ; for that they not having the fear of god before their eyes , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the th day of february , in the th year of the reign of this king , feloniously and voluntarily , and of their malice aforethought , did make an assault upon thomas thynne , esq at the parish of st. martins in the fields , in this county ; and that he the said george borosky , having in his hands a blunderbuss , which he knew to be charged with four leaden bullets , did discharge it at mr. thynne , and gave him four mortal wounds , of which wounds he languished till the th day of february , and then dyed : and that they the said christopher vratz and john sterne were there present , aiding , assisting and abetting him to commit the said felony and murder ; and so that they the said george borosky , christopher vratz , and john sterne , did of their malice aforethought , in manner aforesaid , murder the said thomas thynne . and charles john coningsmark , the other prisoner at the bar , stands indicted , for that he before the felony and murder aforesaid , so done and committed , to wit , the th day of february aforesaid , did of his malice aforethought , move , incite , counsel , perswade and procure the said borosky , vratz , and sterne , to do that murder , against the peace of the king , his crown and dignity . to this indictment they have severally pleaded not guilty , and you are to inquire , whether they are guilty , as they are charged , or no. sir francis withins . my lord and gentlemen , i am of counsel in this case for the king , against the prisoners at the bar. there are three of them indicted as principals in this murder , the fourth as accessory before . in this case that is now before you , gentlemen , i cannot chuse but take notice unto you , that a murder of this nature has never been heard of to be perpetrated upon english ground , both in respect of the person murdered , and in respect of the circumstances of the fact. for the person murdered , a gentleman of that quality and estate , that he hath left but few equals behind him . that this man being in his coach , should be way-layed , surprized , murdered , and this murder committed in the midst of our streets , is that which works amazement in all english hearts . and our only comfort upon this sad occasion is , that there is not one native of this countrey found amongst all those that are accused to be instruments in this barbarous fact. i did observe to you , gentlemen , before , that there are three named to be principals ; borosky , whom for distinction sake , i shall call by the name of the polander , vratz , who is called the captain , and sterne , who is called the lieutenant . borosky the polander , we say , was the man that discharged this blunderbuss against this worthy gentleman that was slain , but though he was the only man that discharged it , yet if we can satisfie you that vratz and sterne were with him at the same time , aiding and assisting him when he gave the blow , they are as much principals as he that shot off the gun. it will be natural to open to you what is said against this captain vratz ; he is a swede by birth , and did formerly belong to count coningsmark ; he was a retainer to him . afterwards , i think in the war he was made a captain . this gentleman had been formerly in england , but at the last time he came , which was three weeks , or thereabouts , before the murder was committed , his lodging was in king-street at westminster . this captain vratz , we shall prove , did often discourse that he had a quarrel with mr. thynne , that several times before this murder was actually done , he ordered his servant to way-lay his coach , and upon that very fatal day , the th . of february , when this unhappy accident fell out , having information that mr. thynne was gone out in his coach , immediately he puts on his boots , gives order to his servant to bring his cloaths to him at such a place , because he should remove his lodging , he said , that night , that he should bring his cloaths to the black bull inn in holborn , and bring his horse thither too . when he went from his lodging , the polander went along with him , and they came to the black bull in holborn , where they met with sterne . we shall shew you , that these three gentlemen being thus armed , one with a blunderbuss , the second with pistols , and the other very well provided , rid out about six of the clock , the murder being committed about seven or eight . at their going out , they enquired which was their way to temple barr , they were seen to ride through the strand to st. jameses , the fact was done in the pall-mall , and we shall shew you the way of it was thus ; mr. thynne passing through the street to go home in his coach , three persons came riding up to the coach-side , and while the one stopped the horses , immediately the blunderbuss was discharged into the coach against mr. thynne , and gave him those wounds , of which the next morning he dyed . presently these three men ran away , but one of them let fall a pistol upon the place , which i shall observe as a material circumstance against these persons , because we shall prove whose the blunderbuss was . these things being done , this murder committed , and they gone away , it began to work in peoples thoughts , and circumstances began to come out , that this blunderbuss should be ordered to be bought by captain vratz , who had discoursed with many persons about the quarrel he had with mr. thynne , and given order to his servant to way-lay his coach , and these persons being rid out at that time , there was a great suspicion that they did it . great care there was taken , and great means used , as no doubt there would be , to apprehend the malefactors ; and by great providence it was found out at last , that this captain vratz , according to his word , had altered his lodging , and was got to a doctors house , that lived , i think , in leicester fields . being there surprized , and coming upon his examination , he did not deny but he was there one of the three that was at the place when and where mr. thynne was murdered , but he pretended , he did intend to fight him in a duel , and kill him fairly , as he called it . but gentlemen , i must observe this to you , in my small time of experience of the world , i never knew a man go to fight a duel and carry out with him a second with a blunderbuss . 't is not possible he should go with such a design as he would insinuate , but rather with an intention of murder . for the polander , he came into england but the friday before , and so we shall prove to you that which will stick hard upon the count. upon friday , he being landed , he inquires for the young count's tutor , which was at an academy of one monsieur fauberts ; and there he inquires for the count's secretary ; he lay there , i think that night , and upon saturday he was conveyed to the count's lodgings . there also he was lodged for one night . the count was pleased to be speak him a very good sword , and a coat for him , that he might be well armed , and there he lay saturday-night , as i said , the night before the murder was committed . upon sunday , gentlemen , there being a message sent to this doctor , where vratz lay , the night following that the count would speak with the doctor , the doctor came , and the doctor and the polander went away to capt. vratz lodging , and from thence to holborn , to the black bull , and the captain was carried in as much secresie as he could , for he was carried in a sedan ; and i think we shall be able to prove by the persons that carried him , that this was the man. for the other gentleman , stern , the lieutenant , as they call him , he was an antient acquaintance of capt. vratz's , had known him long ago in england , and complained to him , that lodgings might be very dear : but the captain told him , he had a design ; that if he would assist him , as a brave fellow , would maintain him , and he should not want money to bear all his charges . but we shall prove , that this was the third person that rid out with the polander , and the captain in this garb , that i told you of , this night that the fact was done . and indeed , gentlemen , upon their examination they have every one confessed the fact ; even the polander confessed ; that he did shoot off the blunderbuss ; and vratz confessed , that he was there , and the lieutenant sterns ; so that if there had been no more evidence , it would have been sufficient to maintain the issue , and in our circumstances , it is more perhaps than could be expected . this , gentlemen , is the principal sum of the evidence that will be given against the three principals . for the fourth , gentlemen , count coningsmark ; he is a person of great quality , and i am extraordinary sorry to find the evidence so strong against him , as my brief imports ; i wish his innocence were greater , and our evidence less ; for he is a person of too great quality , one would hope , to be concerned in a thing of this nature ; but that he was the maid abettor and procuror of this barbarous business , we shall prove upon these grounds : first , that he had a design upon mr. thynne's life ; for , gentlemen , coming into england , about three weeks before this matter was transacted , first he lies in disguise , and lies private , and removes his lodging from place to place frequently ; that he sent a person to inquire of the swedish resident , whether , or no , if he should kill mr. thynne in a duel , he could by the laws of england afterwards marry the lady ogle ? so that mr. thynne's death was in prospect from the beginning . gentlemen , we shall prove to you , as i did in some measure open before , that the count himself was pleased to give express order , that the polander should have a good sword bought him ; that before he came into england , he was very much troubled , by reason of the stormy weather , for fear he should be cast away ; that he lodged him in his own lodging the night before this act was perpetrated ; and that captain vratz was the morning before and immediately after with the count. another thing , gentlemen , that i had almost forgot ; the count was willing to be instructed in the laws of england , and inquired , whether a man might lawfully ride out upon a sunday ? and being told , that after sermon he might ; he was very well satisfied : and the day he inquired of it , was the day that the murder was committed . after the thing was done , count coningsmark the next morning pretended he was to go to windsor , and leaves his lodging ; but instead of going to windsor , ( being still in his disguise ) he goes to rotherhith , by the water-side , and there , i think , he continues two or three days in a black peruque ; ( and that is disguise enough for such a gentleman . ) and afterwards he goes to gravesend ; but , i think , he was upon the water some time , before he thought it convenient to land ; and there he was surprized in this disguise . and when he was surprized and taken , he shew'd himself to be in great disorder : but being charged with the fact , acknowledged nothing of the matter ; but how it should come to pass , that he should lie so long disguised , upon no pretence that can be known , and afterwards to pretend that he had a business to effect , and then he was to go into france , that will lye upon him to answer . but these are the inducing evidences that we give to you ; his keeping the polander in his house , his disguising of himself , and his inquiring , whether if he killed mr. thynne , he might not marry my lady ogle ? his flight the next day , and pretending to go to windsor , when he went quite the other way , and all in a disguise ; and these persons not having any appearance , or any reason whatsoever , for any particular quarrel to mr. thynne , but the count having some disgust to him , upon the terms that the witnesses will tell you of by and by , and being related to the count , we must leave it to you to judge , whether these gentlemen did it singly and purely upon their own heads , or whether they were not set upon it by the count. sir fra. winn. my lord , i shall not trouble you with repeating of our evidence , but we will begin and call our witnesses , directly to prove the murder done by these gentlemen ; we will prove the fact downright upon them , and then we shall afterwards come to the count. mr. williams . my lord , first we will direct our evidence to the principals , and then to the accessory . call william cole and william ellers . l. c. j. swear some persons to interpret the evidence that shall be given : i do it for the sake of the aliens that are of the jury ; for some of them understand no english , and they will not know what to make of the evidence , if they do not repeat it to them in their own language . then vandore and wright were sworn for the king. sir n. johnson . my lord desires that the doctor and the taylor that are in prison may be sent for , to be here , for they are witnesses for him . sir fra. winn. we desire they may be here too , for they are witnesses for the king , and i believe they are here , my lord. sir n. johnson . mr. vandore does not speak french. sir. will. roberts . mr. craven speaks dutch and french very well . mr. craven was sworn . sir n. johnson . the count desires the favor of pen and ink. l. c. j. let the count have pen and ink. mr. williams . call william cole and william ellers . who appeared , and were sworn . which is william cole ? set him up . acquaint my lord and the jury how mr. thynne was assaulted , and the manner of it . cole . my lord , my master was coming up st. james-street , from the countess of northumberlands . sir fra. winn. name your master . mr. williams . who was your master ? cole . mr. thynne . and i had a flambeau in my hand , and was going before the coach , and coming along , at the lower end of st. albons-street , i heard the blunderbuss go off ; so upon that i turned my face back , and saw a great smoke , and heard my master cry out he was murdered : and i see three horsemen riding away on the right side of the coach , and i pursued after them , and cryed out murder ; i ran to the upper end of the hay-market , till i was quite spent , and was able to go no further , and turning back again , my master was got into the house , and i understood he was wounded : that is all i know . mr. williams . you say you heard a blunderbuss go off , and turning back , you saw three men riding away from the coach. cole . yes . mr. williams . look upon the prisoners at the bar : can you say all them , or any of them were the men ? cole . no i cannot ; i did not see their faces , but i saw the horse of one of them was a little bay horse . mr. williams . but do you take any of them men to be one of the three ? cole . i did not see any of their faces . sir fra. winn. what time of night was it ? cole . a quarter after eight . sir fra. winn. pray what day of the week ? cole . sunday . sir fran. win. what day of the month ? cole . the th . or th . of february . sir fran. win. then , where is william ellers ? pray do you tell the court and the jury how mr. thynne was wounded , and by whom , and what you know of it . ellers . my lord , i came with my master from st. james-street from my lady northumberland's , and as i came at st. albans-street , there came three men riding by the right side of the coach , and as they rid , one of them turned about , and bid me stop , you dog , and just as i looked about , the fire was let into the coach upon my master , and the men ran away as fast as they could . sir fran. win. how many were there of them ? ellers . there were three . sir fran. win. were those men at the bar , or any of them the persons ? ellers . i cannot tell . sir fran. win. what were the words they said when the coach was stopped . hold , hold , or stop , you dog ? mr. williams . what condition was your master in then ? was he shot then ? ellers . yes . mr. williams . we will give you some evidence now out of their examinations . l. c. j. you had best give some evidence of his wounds . mr. williams . yes , we will. call mr. hobbs the chirurgeon . l. c. j. look you , mr. craven , you hear what these witnesses say , tell it to the gentlemen of the jury that are outlandish men , that these witnesses swear , there were three men did do this thing ; the one of them stopped the coach , and the other shot into it , but it was at that time of night , they could not know their faces , and they all rid away . mr. craven . my lord , if you please , the witnesses may speak by degrees , and between every witness i will give the jury an account . l c. j. well , it shall be so ; but these say no more than what i tell you , that three men did do this . then he interpreted it to the jury . l. c. j. what says that gentleman to you ? mr. craven . he says , he hears that three men did do it , but he says , he does not hear that they knew any of them . then mr. hobbs was sworn . mr. williams . had you the searching of mr. thynn's body after it was hurt ? mr. hobbs . yes . mr. williams . how did you find him ? mr. hobbs . i was with him , sir , that night he was wounded , and i found him shot with four bullets which entred into his body and tore his guts , and wounded his liver , and his stomack , and his gall , and wounded his great guts , and his small guts , and broke one of the ribs , and wounded the great bone below . sir fran. win. what time came you to him ? mr. hobbs . about nine or ten of the clock . sir fran. win. did he dye of those wounds ? mr. hobbs . yes , he did dye of those wounds . mr. williams . did you apprehend them all mortal , or any , or which of them ? mr. hobbs . i believe there was never a wound but it might prove mortal . sir fran. win. now tell us what day of the week , and what day of the month it was . mr. hobbs . it was sunday-night , the th . of february , i think . l. c. j. what did you observe of the bullets , was there any thing done to them more than ordinary ? mr. hobbs . i could not see any thing , i have them here , my lord. l. chief baron . were they iron or lead ? then mr. hobbs delivered them into court. mr. hobbs . two of them , the little ones , may be iron , for one of them went through a thick bone , and yet there was no impression on it . l. c. j. and this that has the impression , you think might be done against the bones . mr. hobbs . yes . l. c. j. was this left ragged on purpose to do the more mischief ? mr. hobbs . which , my lord ? l. c. j. this that is left at the end here . would this be more mortal than another bullet , or harder to heal ? mr. hobbs . no , but as they take up a greater space in flying . l. c. j. would not the raggedness hinder the healing ? mr. hobbs . no , only bruise the flesh , which bruised flesh must come away before it can be healed . all bullets wound by b●uising of the flesh . l. c. j. well , these were the four bullets that were found in mr. thynnes body . mr. hobbs . i verily believe they are . dr. lowre had them out of my hands for a day or two , but i believe them to be the same . l. c. j. was there any lodged in the stomach ? mr. hobbs . yes , one of the little ones . l. c. j. had they broke the great bone ? mr. hobbs . yes , the great bone in the bottom of the belly . l. c. j. two of them ? mr. hobbs . a great one and a little one ; two of them passed through that bone , and lodged in the back-bone . l. c. j. was any of them gone through the body ? mr. hobbs . one of them lay between the ribbs and the skin . l. c. j. none were got quite through then ? mr. hobbs . none . sir fr. win. call the coroner , mr. white . l. c. j. tell the jury , mr. craven , what this witness has said . [ then he interpreted it . ] l. c. j. what says that gentleman ? mr. graven . he says , 't is very well , he understands part of it . l. c. j. do the rest of them understand it ? sir n. johnson . he told it in french to the others . l. c. j. let mr. hobbs have the bullets again when the jury have seen them . [ then mr. white was sworn . ] sir fr. win. now we will ask the coroner a question or two . pray will you acquaint my lord , what you know of this murder of mr. thynne . mr. white . on the thirteenth of february , in the afternoon , i sat upon the body of thomas thynne esquire , and i found he had four holes on his right side , behind his short ribbs , and they seemed to be like holes made with bullets . and i gave order to open the body . l. c. j. and there the bullets were found ? mr. white . there the chirurgeon found them . l. c. j. were you by ? mr. white . i was at the taking of them out . l. c. j. 't is fit that the polander should have one to interpret what is said against him . mr. williams . captain vratz , you hear what is said , and understand it . interpreter . he says he does understand it . mr. williams . pray tell the polander what is said . that is , the two first witnesses say , three persons assaulted the coach , and one shot into the coach , and by that means mr. thynne was killed , by the shot out of the blunderbuss ; and the chirurgeon does say , that these four bullets were found in his body . [ then it was interpreted to the polander . ] interpreter . he says , my lord , he cannot tell how many bullets were in , he did not charge it himself , but he fired it , he says . sir fr. win. he confesses he fired then . sir w. roberts . my lord , the jury desire to know if the pole can tell who did charge it . l. c. j. north. ask him who charged it . interpreter . he can tell , my lord , he says . l. c. j. it will not be very material that , for his evidence can charge no body but himself . sir fr. win. now , my lord , if you please , we will call those persons the justices of the peace that examined these men upon their apprehension for the murther of mr. thynne . call mr. bridgman , and sir john reresby . [ who were sworn standing upon the bench. ] interpreter . my lord , he says the blunderbuss was given him by the captain . sir fr. win. mr. bridgman , were you by at the taking of the examination of these persons ? mr. bridgman . yes , i was and these were the examinations were taken . sir fr. win. were you by all the while ? mr. bridgman . sir john reresby and i did take these examinations . and i will read then if you please . l. c. j. as to that , let it alone , if you please . mr. bridgman , when the polander was examined concerning this murder , what did he say ? mr. bridgman . he owned , to the best of my remembrance ; but i refer to the examination if i mistake . l. c. j. look upon it to refresh your memory , sir , and then tell us . mr. williams . look first what the polander said , and then we will go on to the others . sir fr. win. now , sir , will you please to acquaint my lord , and the jury , what he or any of them confessed of the fact. l. c. j. what the polander confessed first . mr. bridgman . the polander upon his examination before sir john reresby and me , did own that he came into england at the desire of count conningsmark . l. c. j. speak only as to himself ; for it is evidence only against himself . sir fr. win. my lord , his confession is intire , and we can't separate it . l. c. j. but we must direct what is just and fitting . his evidence can charge no body but himself ; and that is the reason i would not have his examination read , for it cannot be read but only against himself . mr. bridgman . upon his examination he confessed , that he was present when the captain stopped the coach ; that he fired the musquetoon by the captains order ; and that before he did it , the captain bid him as soon as ever he stopped the coach , to fire . sir fr. win. did he confess he did fire ? mr. bridgman . yes , he did . l. c. j. north. as he does now . l. c. j. look you , now you do tell the polander , that the evidence against him is , that he did fire this musquetoon , or blunderbuss , or what you will call it ? interpreter . he does confess it . l. c. j. tell him what i say , that this evidence is given against him , that he did formerly acknowledge he discharged the blunderbuss into the coach , when captain vratz stopped the coach. interpreter . yes , my lord , he says 't is true , he fired according to his order . sir fr. win. pray , sir , consider what was confessed by the captain . mr. bridgm. he confessed he had a design to fight with mr. thynne , & mr. thynne having several times refused to fight with him , he resolved to oblige him to fight by force , and therefore he had taken these persons along with him ; that if he should fail in his revenge , or after the thing done he should be pursued , he might make his escape . he confessed he was there , and stopped the coach , but the polonian fired by mistake ; for he did not bid him to fire , but only in case he should be hindred from fighting , or making his escape . l. c. j. he confessed he came to fight mr. thynne . mr. bridgman . yes , he did so . l. c. j. and that he stopped the coach ? mr. bridgman . yes . sir fr. win. you said after the thing was done ; what was that thing ? mr. bridgman . after he had fought , in case he should be stopped in his escape , he bid the polander fire . sir fr. win. did he confess any thing of the delivery of the gun to him ? mr. bridgman . he confessed the polander had the gun , but he said nothing from whom he had it . l. c. j. now captain vratz , you hear what is said against you by this gentleman ; that you owned you came thither with a design to fight mr. thynne , and force him to fight if he should not be willing ; and you brought these men with you to carry you off , in case you should kill him ; that you did stop the coach , and you said you did not give him order to fire , unless he refused to fight you . mr. bridgman . no , unless he could not make his escape . l. c. j. now what say you to this ? sir n. johnson . he desires to understand it . l. c. j. why then speak it to him , you that are the interpreter . [ then mr. craven interpreted it to him in french. ] l. c. j. now speak aloud and tell us what he says . mr. craven . he says 't is very true , that he was there , and had that gentleman and the polander along with him as his servants , mr. thynne being a gentleman that had always a great many servants about him . and he says , my lord , that he had received an affront from mr. thynne ; upon that , he challenged him , and sent letters out of holland to desire him to give satisfaction by fighting , but could have no satisfaction ; and therefore because in england duels were forbid , he thought to make a rancounter of it , and took these gentlemen along with him , that if so be mr. thynnes servants should assault him , or knock him on the head , or hinder him from escaping , that they might get him off . sir fr. win. i beg one favour of you , sir , that you would ask him one question , and that is , what the affront was that mr. thynne gave him ? l. c. j. that he apprehends he gave him ? [ the interpreter asked him . ] mr. craven . my lord , he says , that at richmond he heard he spoke and gave out very ill language of count conningsmark , who was his friend , and a man he had many obligations to , and so of himself to , and he would never acquaint count conningsmark with it , but would have satisfaction , and take the quarrel upon himself , being a gentleman ; he says , that he heard that he called him hector , and gav● such ill language as was never to be suffered . sir n. johnson . and the fashion in germany is , if they won't fight , to shoot them . sir fr. win. how can you tell that , sir ? the interpreter that asked the question says no such thing . l. c. j. pray will you ask him this , whether ever he saw mr. thynne , and how many times . mr. craven . he says , he has seen him several times in the play-house , and riding in his coach ; he did not see him at richmond , for if he had , he would not have put it up so long . mr. williams . i believe he never spoke to him in his life . l. c. j. ask him that question , whether he ever spoke to him ? mr. craven . he says he had no friend to send to mr. thynne , and he could not speak with mr. thynne himself ; for mr. thynne might think that he was not a gentleman good enough to fight with him . l. c. j. ask him this , about what time he saw him at the play-house ? mr. craven . he says he does not remember exactly the time when he did see him at the play-house . l. c. j. ask him whether this affront that he pretends , was given him since he last came over , or when he was in england before ? mr. craven . he says 't is eight months agoe since he received the affront . l. c. j. that was before he went out of england . mr. craven . yes , it was before . sir fr. win. he says he writ to mr. thynne out of holland ; we desire to know by whom he sent his challenge . l. c. j. ask him if he sent a challenge to mr. thynne , and by whom . mr. craven . he says he could send no less than a gentleman ; and he had never a gentleman to send by , and so he sent his letter by the post . mr. williams . mr. bridgman , now we would ask you concerning mr. sterne the third man. mr. bridgman . let me have the examination , and i will look upon it and tell you . mr. williams . pray do , sir , tell us what he said . mr. bridgman . upon his examination he confessed , that the captain told him , he had a quarrel with a gentleman , and that if he would assist him in it , he would make his fortune . and that the captain gave him money to buy the blunderbuss . sir fr. win. sterne did confess that , did he ? mr , bridgman . yes . l. c. j. did he confess he was at the fact ? mr. bridgman . yes , he confessed he was at the fact ; and he said , when he came beyond charing-cross , he was about ten yards before , and he heard the captain say , stop to the coach , upon which he turned about , and presently saw the shot made , and he saw the other persons : ride away , and he made away after them : and the captain further told him that he would give two or three , or four hundred crowns , to find a man that would kill mr. thynne . sir fr. win. what did he speak about stabbing , or about an italian ? mr. bridgman . he said that the captain desired him to get an italian that would stab a man , and that he would get two ponyards for that purpose ; and that it was before the polonian came over . l. c. j. this is no evidence against the captain ; but pray will you tell sterne the lieutenant , what it is that mr. bridgman does testifie against him ; that he acknowledged thus and thus before him . and pray speak it again , mr. bridgman . mr. bridgman . the captain told that gentleman , that he had a quarrel with a gentleman , with whom he was resolved to fight ; that he wanted a good servant , and if he would assist him , he would make his fortune ; that he gave him money to buy the musquetoon , and owned he was there ; that he went out with the captain and polander on horseback , about five or six a clock on sunday ; that they went toward charing-cross , and when they were gone beyond charing-cross into the palmall , he heard the captain say to the coachman stop ; and turning immediately , he see the shot go off ; and that they riding away , he followed them : and that before the polander came over , the captain desired him to get an italian to stab a man. [ then that was interpreted to sterne . ] mr. craven . my lord , he denies that he spoke any thing of four hundred pound , or about the italian . l. c. j. tell him it is testified , that he confessed he was at the shooting of this gentleman . mr. craven . he says he was there , and being about ten yards off , he heard one say , hold to the coach , but he cannot say it was the captain . sir fr. win. but was he there ? mr. craven . yes , he says he was . sir fra. win. who caused him to be there ? l. c. j. ask him upon what occasion he was there ? mr. craven . he says the captain intreated him to be there to be his second , to fight with a gentleman , and that was the reason . l. c. j. pray tell him 't is testified here , that he bought the musquetoon , and charged it . mr. craven . he says he did assist at the loading of it he was by . sir fr. win. pray , my lord , let us know who it was assisting him ? l. c. j. why , that is no evidence against any body . sir fr. win. but , my lord , it was delivered to the polander charged , and we desire to know who loaded it . l. c. j. north. that is no evidence ; but yet the question may be asked , and the jury may be told 't is no evidence . l. c. j. but we must not let the jury be possessed by that which is not evidence . l. c. j. north. pray will you ask him , mr. craven , who helped him to load the gun. mr. craven . the captain was by , he says , and the captain and he did it together . sir fra. win. now we will ask sir john reresby the same questions , you were by sir , at the examinations of these three men , pray what did the polander say upon his examination ? sir john reresby . my lord , i cannot charge my memory with the particulars ; but if your lordship pleases , i will read it . l. c. j. no , refresh your memory with it , and then tell us the substance of it . sir john reresby . in general , he did confess to me , that he was the person that did discharge the blunderbus into mr. thynn's coach , and that he was commanded so to do by captain vratz . l. c. j. that is the substance of all . sir fra. win. that is as to him , but what did captain vratz say ? l. c. j. he said , that he did go out with an intention to fight with mr. thynne , and did take these persons with him ; that he did not order the polander to discharge , but he mistook him when he bid the coach-man stand , the other apprehended he bid him shoot , and he did so . mr. williams . what said sterne ? sir john reresby . stern did say this , that the captain told him he had a quarrel with an english gentleman , and desired him to go along with him and assist him in it , and be his second ; but said he , i was chiefly carried out to keep off the people , in case there should be a croud about them when they were fighting ; this is the chief part of what they did confess . l. c. j. we would not trouble you with more than is material . did he acknowledge he was there at the time when he was shot ? sir john reresby . yes , he did about nine or ten yards off , i think . l. c. j. all three confessed they were there ? sir john reresby . yes , they did so . l. c. j. north. they had a design of killing , which was unlawful . sir john reresby . they said , they came on purpose to fight . sir fra. win. call michael fenderoston : my lord , we would willingly spare your time , and offer only what is proper in this case , and now we shall produce our evidence against the count , and if any thing fall out in that evidence that touches these three men ( which we think will be but the killing of dead men ) your lordship will take notice of it . now we shall not go to open the heads of our evidence against the count , sir - francis withins has given an account of the general , and our witnesses will best declare it . mr. williams . we will begin with frederick hanson . ( who was swora and stood up . ) mr. hanson . how long have you known count conningsmark ? mr. hanson . a matter of four years . mr. williams . pray do you remember his last coming into england ? mr. hanson . yes my lord , i do remember it . mr. williams . then let us know the time . mr. hanson . i think 't is above a moneth since . mr. williams . where was his lodging first ? mr. hanson . the first time i saw him was in the post-house . mr. williams . did he come privately or publickly ? mr. hanson . privately to my best knowledge . mr. williams . which was his first lodging ? mr. hanson . in the hay-market . mr. williams . where there ? mr. hanson . at the corner house . mr. williams . how long did he continue there ? mr. hanson . a matter of a week . mr. williams . pray in all that time did he keep privately at home , or did he go abroad sometimes ? mr. hanson . i believe he kept his chamber all the time . mr. williams . were you with him at any time there ? mr. hanson . yes , i was . mr. williams . what company did use to be with him to your knowledge ? mr. hanson . to my knowledge , i have seen dr. frederick in his company . mr. williams . one dr. frederick , you say , who else ? mr. hanson . when i came from whitehall on a sunday in the evening , when my lord was going to bed , i called , if i could be admitted to see him , so i went in to him , and a little after the doctor came . sir fra. win. pray sir at that time that he was in that lodging , did he wear his own hair , or was he in a disguise ? mr. hanson . that sunday night he was in his night-cap and night-gown , ready to go to bed . mr. williams . when you first came to him to the post-house , did you go of your own accord , or were you sent for ? mr. hanson . count conningsmark sent for me . mr. williams . was it sent in his own name , or the name of another ? mr. hanson . it was in a strange name , carlo cusk . mr. williams . have you the note by you ? mr. hanson . no. mr. williams . in whose character was it writ ? mr. hanson . in the counts own character . sir fra. win. what was his name in his first lodging ? what title was he called by , captain , or what ? mr. hanson . i know of no other name but only the stranger . sir fra. win. was it known to any person in the family ? mr. hanson . no. mr. williams . when did he remove from thence ? mr. hanson . i know not . sir fra. winn. you say the first place of his lodging was in the hay-market , where did you see him the second time ? mr. hanson . at a corner house , i know not the name of the street . sir fra. withins . did he direct you to come to him ? mr. williams . had you any discourse with him , what his business was here in england ? mr. hanson . i asked him , if we should have his company here some time ; he told me , he was come over about some business , and was afterwards to go into france . mr. williams . then he never told you what that business was ? mr. hanson . no. mr. williams . where was his second lodging , do you say ? mr. hanson . it was at a corner house , not above two streets off from the former . mr. williams . how long did he continue in his second lodging ? mr. hanson . a few days , because the chimney did so smoak , that he could have no fire made in it . sir fra. win. then i ask , you in his second lodging , was he there publickly or privately ? mr. hanson . he was there after the fame manner that he was in his first lodging . mr. williams . whither went he afterwards ? mr. hanson . to st. martins lane , i think it is called . mr. williams . how long did he continue there ? mr. hanson . there i saw him the last time before he went away . mr. williams . when was that ? mr. hanson . it was the sunday evening after i came from whitehall . mr. williams . was it near the time of killing mr. thynne ? mr. hanson . it was about two or three hours afterwards . mr. williams . was he as private there , as he was in his other lodgings ? mr. hanson . yes . mr. williams . what company came to him thither ? mr. hanson . the same that came to him in the other . sir fra. win. who were they ? mr. hanson . the doctor was in his company . sir fra. win. and who else ? mr. hanson . i saw one captain vratz there . sir fra. win. sir , i ask you upon your oath , you are a man of understanding , did you frequently see captain vratz in his company ? how often do you remember you saw him at his lodging ? mr. hanson . i do not remember that i saw captain vratz at that lodging above one single time . mr. williams . pray sir thus ; did captain vratz come with the count into england this last time ? mr. hanson . to my best remembrance he did . mr. williams . you say captain vratz came with the count to england . mr. hanson . i believe he was before the count , but not long before ; i can't exactly tell . mr. williams . how long before the count ? mr. hanson . truly i can't tell , but i believe not long . mr. williams . what makes you think he came into england with him ? mr. hanson . because i saw him in company with the count , as soon as i saw the count. mr. williams . were they in company at the post-house ? mr. hanson . yes . sir fra. win. and you saw him once at his first lodging ? mr. hanson . yes . mr. williams . pray sir have you carried any message from the count to the swedish resident ? mr. hanson . my lord , i can say this upon my oath , to my best remembrance , count conningsmark never charged me , or gave me any positive order to go to the swedish envoy , but he did name the swedish envoy to me , as if he were willing to know his advice ; and so i being obliged to pay my respects to the swedish envoy , who had treated the young count and my self very civilly before ; and so paying my respects to the said envoy , i did remember the conversation i had with the count , and spoke with the said envoy about this business , and that is all that i can say . sir fra. win. what was that message ? mr. hanson . i say there was no direct message : but i say this was the business ; count conningsmark told me in private familiar discourse , that he had heard that esquire thynne had spoken some abusive languag●●● him , and he would fain know what the consequence of this would be , if he should call him to account about this business ; and he named the swedish envoy to me : and i saw his desire was to know his opinion about the businesses , what the consequence of it would be . so i spoke to the swedish envoy , and he gave me this answer , that if the count should any way meddle with esquire thynne , he would have but bad living in england ; but what the law would say in that particular case he could not answer , but he would enquire , and afterwards would give me an account , but i never spake with him after . sir fr. winn. i ask you , because you have been formerly examined in another place about this matter . do you remember any thing that ever you heard the count speaking of fighting with mr. thynne ? mr. hanson . count conningsmark spoke to me in the german language ; i spoke to the swedish agent in french ; and when i was before the king and council i spoke in english ; therefore i desire no evil construction may be made of it . i cannot remember the count spake of killing or duelling . on the contrary i can swear for count conningsmark this , that i am confident he never told me that he had resolved or would fight with mr. thynne , or would call him to account , but if he should call him to accompt , what would be the consequence of it . sir fra. winn. call him to accompt about what ? mr. hanson . the count in familiar discourse with me did tell me , that he had heard esquire thynne had spoken abusively of him . sir fra. winn. how had he spoken abusively of him ? mr. hanson . he reflected upon his person and upon his horse . mr. williams . was there any thing in that message about marrying my lady ogle ? mr. hanson . that was the last part of the question , that if he should meddle with esquire thynne , what the consequence might be , if the laws of england would be contrary to him in the hopes or pretensions he might have to my lady ogle . mr. williams . you mince your words mightily ; pray remember your self ; did he speak of killing mr. thynne , or that mr. thynne should be destroyed ? mr. hanson . no , his phrase was ; if he should have an advantage of him , when he should meddle with him , or call him to an account , what the consequence might be ; i can say this upon my conscience . sir fran. win. sir , you are in a place where you are sworn to speak the truth , the whole truth , and nothing but the truth ; what relation have you to count conningsmark's family ? mr. hanson . i have no relation to the family at all . sir fran. win. are not you governour to the young count ? mr. hanson . the countess has given me her younger son , for me to be his companion in his travels . sir fran. win. sir , i ask you a plain question , let it lye at your own door , if you won't tell the truth ; had you any conversation with count conningsmark , wherein he did desire you to ask advice of the swedish envoy or resident here , about duelling mr. thynne , or in case he should kill mr. thynne , or upon any such account ? mr. hanson . my lord , i say this was spoken in several languages , by the count in dutch , by my self to the envoy in french ; and i do know i swore before the king and counsel , but i cannot lay this to count conningsmark's charge , for then i must forswear my self . sir fran. win. sir , you can answer me all my questions in english , if you please , what the discourse was . l. c. j. pray sir thus , what was the discourse as near as you can remember it , between count conningsmark and you , relating to mr. thynne ? l. c. j. north. tell the whole sir , for you are bound to tell the whole indifferently . sir fran. win. and pray remember what you swore in another place . mr. hanson . the count sent to me a note , that he had a mind to speak with me , and he entertained me with a familiar discourse about his travelling , and about the setling of his business , and the●●upon he fell upon other discourse about mr. thynne ; and not to mistake , having h●●●me in my own chamber , i have put it down in writing , to satisfie my lord and all this honourable court , what i can say about this matter . mr. hanson reads — 't is very hard to give a true account . l. c. j. read it to your self if you will , and tell us the substance . mr. hanson . if my words may not turn to the prejudice of my lord count conningsmark , but this is the substance of the thing ; my lord count conningsmark did tell me in familiar discourse , that esquire thynne had spoken some reflecting words upon him ; he did desire to know if he did call him to account , whether in this case the laws of england might not go contrary to his design in his pretensions , that he might have upon my lady ogle . and in that familiar discourse , he seemed to think that monfieur lienburgh could give him advice . in a little while afterwards , i was paying my respects to the envoy , and reflecting upon the counts conversation , i spoke to him about this business , and his answer was this ; he told me , that if he should meddle with mr. thynne , he would have no good living in england : but as to the particular question , what the consequence of the law might be , he did not know , but inquire and tell me , but i never asked him any question about it afterwards . and if my conversation with this count , or with monsieur lienburgh , should turn to the count's prejudice , i should be answerable for it to god and my own conscience , all the dayes of my life . i desire mr. thynne's blood might be revenged , but i desire also , that innocent blood may be spared . sir fra. win. pray sir , will you look upon that paper , you signed it . l. c j. north. only to recollect your memory . then he was shew'd his examination before the council . l. c. j. now you have read it over , that there is under your own hand , do you now again deliver the substance of your discourse you had with count conningsmark as you will stand by it . mr. hanson . i see that there are expressions in this paper . l. c. j. speak not what is in that paper , but what discourse ( as near as you can ) you had with count conningsmark . mr. hanson . my discourse with count conningsmark was this ; in a familiar discourse amongst other things , he spoke , that he heard esq thynne had affronted him , i don't know upon what subject , but i believe it was words reflecting upon him and his horse ; he did not tell me that he desired me to go , nor did he give me any positive charge to go to the swedish envoy , but by the discourse i had with him , i did understand that he was desirous to have his advice , i thought his inclinations were , that i should go and ask his advice ; i did not go on purpose to do the message , nor did i receive any order that can be called a message in my life , to my remembrance ; but when i came to pay my respects in a familiar discourse , i did propose this to the envoy ; what might be the consequence , if the count should call mr. thynne to account ; and he told me the same answer that i have already told you . now this i desire only to consider , that it was spoken in divers languages ; and if a man should write down my expressions now , as they came from me , they would upon reading perhaps , appear not so well ; so if these expressions of mine should turn to count conningsmark's prejudice , as that i should swear that this phrase of killing or duelling was used , or that ever count conningsmark told me that he resolved to call , or that he would call him to an account , i might do him wrong perhaps , but if he should call him to account , what might be the consequence of it . sir. fran. win. i would not intangle you , but only i would seek after the truth . i do not ask you positively , whether he did bid you go to ask advice of the swedish envoy , that he did resolve so and so ; but did he discourse it thus , if he should duel him or fight him . ? mr. hanson . as i am before god almighty , i cannot say i heard such expressions . mr. williams . pray sir , you confess you acquainted the envoy with it ? mr. hanson . yes . mr. williams . did you bring the envoy's answer to the gent. or no ? mr. hanson . if i should be upon the gospel , i am sure i cannot exactly tell , what was the expression . l. c. baron . what was it that you discerned he doubted , if he did call mr. thynne to account ? sir fra. win. he spoke in relation to a marriage , pray what was it ? mr. williams . what did that if relate to ? mr. hanson . if he should ask him satisfaction about it , having heard that he had spoken abusive words of him ? sir fra. win. what then was to follow ? mr. hanson . if he should call him to account , then how the laws of england might do in this point ? mr. williams . to whom ? mr. hanson . to the count. mr. williams . what should befall him ? mr. hanson . whether the law should be contrary to him in the design and proposals h● might have , concerning the young countess of ogle . mr. williams . well , i see you will give no reasonable answer to that ; but now , when came the polander over into england ? mr. hanson . i cannot say positively i can tell when he came . mr. williams . but when did you see him first ? mr. hanson . upon the friday he came and asked me for the count at monsieur fauberts academy . now the young count conningsmark's chamber and mine joyns together , next to one another , and there came a man with him , i do not know his name , but if i see the man i know him . mr. williams . you say the polander came over on friday ? mr. hanson . he came to me on friday . mr. williams . and he came to you to the french academy , to enquire for count conningsmark ? mr. hanson . yes , he did so . mr. williams . had he any letters ? mr. hanson . yes , he had two letters . mr. williams . from whom and to whom ? mr. hanson . i asked him if he had any letter for count conningsmark , and he said no ; but he told me he had two letters , and the one was to the count's secretary , and the other was to the count's steward in london . so i gave him back his letters , and asked him whence he came ; he told me , he was just come into england . i asked him , whether he had been a great while at sea , and he told me , yes ; and that it was stormy , and he had like to have been cast away ; said i , i hear you are expected therefore ; have you paid your lodging ; no , said he ; then said i , go and pay your lodging , and come to me in the morning early . sir fran. win. you say you heard he was expected , pray who expected him ? mr. hanson . the count ; for he had spoken formerly twice of the polander , and in the great storm thought he had been drowned . to the best of my remembrance , i have heard the count speak twice of this polander . sir fran. win. of this man ? mr. hanson . i suppose it is the same . sir fran. win. you say you saw him on friday ? mr. hanson . yes , i did . mr. williams . when did he speak of the stormy weather ? and that he was afraid the polander might miscarry ? mr. hanson . about twelve or thirteen dayes before . mr. williams . now say as hear as you can what the count said . mr. hanson . he said the polander was a mighty able man , and understood horses , and the count had a mind to buy english horses , and intended to have had this polander as a groom to dress them after the german way , and no man was abler than the polander to do it ; and when he spoke of it , i went once to the change , and inquired whether the ship was lost . sir fran. win. by whose directions did you go to inquire whether the ship were lost ? mr. hanson . i had no direction , but only count conningsmark's speaking about it . sir fran. win. he seemed to be concerned at it , did he ? mr. hanson . yes , he was afraid that the polander would be drowned . mr. williams . you say you directed him to clear his quarters ? mr. hanson . yes , i did so . mr. williams . did you see him again the next day ? mr. hanson . yes , he came the next day . mr. williams . was he the next day in company with the count or no ? mr. hanson . i brought him to the count. sir fran. win. where ? mr. hanson . it was a little before noon ; because i went the back way , and i left him at the counts lodging . mr. williams . did you leave him with the count ? mr. hanson . yes , i did . mr. williams . pray , as long as you were there , what passed between the count and the polander ? mr. hanson . i remember very well what passed between the count and him , for i have thought of it . he spoke to him , and called him thou , as to his servant , and asked him , where he had been all the while , and he answered he had been at sea , tossed up and down . sir fra. withins . pray what directions had you given about a sword for that polander ? mr. hanson . i went to the counts lodgings , and being desired by him to stay , i desired he would excuse me , for i could not stay , because i was to go about another business ; he told me the fellow was all naked , and he had no man to send to buy him a riding-coat ; i told him i would very willingly and heartily do it . and after i had dined , i went to an house near the hay-market , and bought a riding-coat , and brought the riding-coat to the counts lodgings . i delivered it to the count. then the count told me his man had never a sword , and i asked him how much his lordship would please to bestow on a sword , he told me a matter of s . or thereabouts ; i told him i did not know where i should get such a sword , nor how to send for it , because i was to meet his brother , but i withal said , it is no matter for that , i will take care you shall have it ; this evening i went into st. martins-lane , but could not find ever a sword worth a groat . then i went as far as charing-cross to a cutler whom i knew , so i told him , sir , said i , i have a commission to bestow s. on a sword for a servant , therefore said i , i leave it to your discretion , use my friend well , and use your self favourably too . i asked him when i should have the sword , he told me in the evening ; i told him i would call for it when i came from the play , where i was to be with the counts brother . when i came back with the young count conningsmark from the play i called for the sword , but he told me it was not ready . i seemed to be a little angry , and told him that it was strange , a gentleman could not get a little sword got ready for him in an whole afternoon . well , sir , said he , pray do not be impatient , i will send you the sword , and afterwards he sent it to the academy , and i afterwards sent the sword to count conningsmarks lodgings . mr. williams . pray had you this direction for the sword , after you had brought the polander to the count , or before ? mr. hanson . count conningsmark did never give me any direction or charge to buy a sword for him , but i did offer my service if he pleased , because he said , he had no body to send . mr. williams . sir , you do not know the question , or you won't apprehend it ; pray when had you this direction from the count to buy this sword ? mr. hanson . on saturday in the afternoon . mr. williams . when was it you brought the polander to the count ? mr. hanson . in the morning . sir fra. winn. pray let me ask you another question , when was it you first heard mr. thynne was kill'd ? mr. hanson . i heard it i believe about eight a clock in the evening on sunday . sir fra. winn. had you any discourse with the count about the murder ? mr. hanson . yes , i had . sir fra. winn. pray tell what that discourse was ? mr. hanson . i was at whitehall till ten of the clock , and then i went to the count ; but i desire this may not be taken as an extraordinary visit , because i used to go to him on the sundays in the evenings , and those sundays before he was taken , i used to come to him in the evening , after i had been at whitehall . when i came into his lodgings , i found him in his night-cap , and night-gown ; he asked me what news , i told him i could tell him great news , and that was of the killing of esq thynne , who was shot in his coach ; the embassador of savoy had told me all that he had heard about it , and i told it him . after i had spoken of this business , he asked me where his brother was ; i told him , his brother was at the duke of richmonds . and after some discourse i went away . sir fra. winn. when you told him of the murder of mr. thynne , did he make no answer , nor say any thing about it ? mr. hanson . he did not make me any answer , by which i could conclude that count conningsmark was any way concerned in the business . sir fra. withins . pray sir , i ask you upon your oath , the count is a man of great quality himself ; when you told him of such an horrid murder , what , did he say nothing about it ? mr. hanson . he asked me several questions , what the people did say , but i would not make any mistake . sir fra. winn. tell all he said sir about it ? mr. hanson . i told him the greatest news i heard was , the killing of mr. thynne ; and i told him who brought the news , and i told him the court was heartily angry at it , that such an accident should happen , and i said it was an italian trick , not used in england . sir fra. winn. what said he then ? mr. williams . pray do you remember what he said ? mr. hanson . what i have answered now . he made me such questions upon this story as i have told you . l. ch. j. let him explain himself , pray as near as you can , relate what discourse you had with count conningsmark , that sunday night after you came to him and told him of the murder . sir. fra. winn. what did he say to you ? mr. hanson . i will tell you my lord ; the count was surprized as every man would be to hear of so sad an accident , and so the count asked me what the people said , so i told him what i heard at whitehall , i cannot call to my memory all the particulars ; but i said the king was heartily sorry , and all the court for so sad an accident , and i must wrong my self or count conningsmark , if i should undertake to relate exactly what passed , for i cannot remember it . mr. vvilliams . but you said just now , that you told the count it looked like an italian trick , not used in england . mr. hanson . yes , i did so . mr. vvilliams . what did he reply to that ? mr. hanson . not a word . mr. vvilliams . did he mention any thing of fortifications to you then ? mr. hanson . yes , he gave me a plain , or a draught of a fortification done with his own hand , and that was all the discourse . mr. vvilliams . so then he diverted the discourse to the business of fortification . l. ch. j. the evidence is heard , what it is that he ended all the discourse with , shewing him a paper of fortifications . sir fr. vvin. but this he does say , he asked him what the people did say of it ? mr. hanson . for my life i dare not say i remember any more than i have told . l. ch. j. look you , sir , now , will you in french deliver this , for the benefit of those jury-men that don't understand english . mr. vvilliams . we pray , my lord , our interpreter may do it . l. ch. j. when a man can speak both languages , he needs no interpreter , he is his own best interpreter . mr. vvilliams . my lord , i will tell you why i ask it ; there is a great deal of difference , i find , where you examine a man with the hair , and where you examine him against the hair : where you find it difficult to make a man answer , you will pump him with questions , and cross interrogate him to sift out the truth ; now if you leave this man to the interpretation of what he hath said himself , he will make a fine story of it , and we shall be never the wiser . l. ch. j. you may examine him in french if you will. mr. vvilliams . and i understand none but pedlers french. sir fr. vvin. the truth of it is , what your lordship says , cannot be opposed regularly ; but i do appeal to your lordship , and all the judges , and all the court , whether this man does answer like an ingenuous man ; you see he shifts . l. ch. j. i do not see it , nor do i believe any see he shifts in any thing you ask of him ; either he tells you what the question is , or the reason of it ; how far that is a reason , is left to the jury to consider . sir fr. win. certainly it can do no hurt to have an interpreter . l. ch. j. north. my lord , if there be two ways to take , 't is best to take that which will give satisfaction to all persons , let him be asked by the interpreter , what questions the counsel would have answered , and then let him to tell his answer in french. l. ch. j. if that be liked better , let it be so . mr. craven , can you tell the substance of the evidence that this gentlemen hath given ? mr. craven . no , i cannot , his evidence has been so long , and so many cross questions have been asked . sir fr. win. i would spare your time — l. ch. j. but this is the way to spend our time . sir fr. win. i know your lordship does not value time in such a case as this is , but you would have the truth found out . l. ch. just . you must repeat , first , the discourse you had with count conningsmark . sir fr. win. my lord , we will reduce it to two or three questions . mr. craven , will you please to ask him what discourse he had with count conningsmark . mr. craven . he says , the discourse he had with count conningsmark about the polander , was , that he came over as a groom to serve him to look after his horses ; that he had occasion for several english horses , and english servants to look after them as grooms ; and among the rest of his grooms , he intended the polander should be one , to dress his horses after the german way . sir fr. win. so far he goes as to that , that the polander came over to serve the count. l. ch. j. look you , sir , does not he tell you , the count had a purpose to buy horses here . mr. craven . he says , there was a discourse about bills of exchange of pistols to buy horses . sir. fr. win. pray then will you ask him , what discourse he had with count conningsmark about the death of mr. thynne , and what the consequences in law might be . mr. craven . my lord , he says , that the discourse with count conningsmark , concerning the swedish agent , was , that in case he should ask satisfaction of mr. thynne , for the affronts that he had given him , not understanding the customs of the nation , if he should call him to account , what prejudice it might be to him ; for he did not hear , he says , that count conningsmark designed any thing , or resolved upon killing him , or any thing of that nature ; but whether if he should call him to account , what the laws of england might be . mr. williams . call john wright . sir n. johnson . my lord , the count desires to know if he may be permitted to make his defence against these witnesses . l. ch. j. no , he is not to make his defence now . but pray tell him if my lord have a desire to ask any questions of this witness , he may ask what he pleases . l. ch. j. north. let the question be put to the interpreter , that we may know what the question is before the witness gives an answer . mr. graven . he askes him if he has not seen him oftner in his lodging undressed than dressed ? and whether he was not to take physick from his physician . mr. hanson . i do not remember that in all the time , i saw count conningsmark , i saw him dressed four times in his coat , i cannot say i remember three times in all . the first time when he came he was in a campaign coat ; but all the time he was in his lodging , as i remember , he was in his night-gown and cap. as to the other part of his question , whether i heard that he took physick ? i say this , when i saw count conningsmark first at his lodging ; when i came to him , on the sunday evening , i was told the count was in bed : it was late , but i ventured to go into his room , and sat a quarter of an hour there ; and afterwards the doctor came in , dr. frederick , i saw him oftentimes at his lodging ; and at the same time the young count was sick of an ague : and when he came one evening to see the young count , i asked him what was the distemper the count had ? the doctor answered me , that he had not told any body that the count was sick , or what he was sick of , but he hoped in god in a short time he would be recovered . mr. craven . he askes him if he gave him any positive order , that he should go of any message to the swedish envoy . mr. hanson . this i have answered before , and i say now , if this discourse that i had with the swedish envoy , turn to the lord count conningsmark's prejudice , it would grate upon my conscience all my life : count conningsmark never gave me any posisitive order to carry any message ; but i did gather , by his discourse , that the count might be desirous to know the envoy's opinion about this question ; and therefore i thought the count desiring it , i would do it to please him , rather than by order . but i do not know that ever the count had a mind to give me such an order , but i did it voluntarily . l. ch. j. in plain english , did he ever direct you to go to the swedish envoy ? mr. hanson . no , my lord , he never did direct me . l. ch. baron . how came you to chuse a forreigner to know what the laws of england are ? mr. hanson . i thought it would please the count to know his opinion . l. ch. bar. but how came you to chuse a forreigner , i ask ? mr. hanson . he has been years here in england , and sure he should know . mr. craven . my lord , he asks him , if ever he told him that he had a design to fight mr. thynne , or do him any prejudice , or send him a challenge ? mr. hanson . my lord , i am upon my oath , and this i say , i speake it before god and the court , count conningsmark did never tell me that he had any mind , or did resolve to call esq thynne any ways to account . mr. williams . call john wright . ( who stood up , and was sworn . ) sir fr. win. we shall ask him but a question or two , my lord. mr. williams . pray tell me the time when this polander came into england , that man at the bar. mr. wright . he came the th day of this month. mr. williams . pray what ship did he come in ? where did you first meet with him ? mr. wright . here in town . mr. williams . where was it ? mr. wright . at the cross-keys in throgmorton-street . mr. williams . pray when you first saw him ; what did he ask you ? mr. wright . he asked me where count conningsmark's lodgings were ? i told him , i thought he was at oxford , i meant the young gentleman , for i did not know the other was in town ; but i went and enquired , and they told me , it was at faubert's academy . mr. williams . whither went you with the polander then ? mr. wright . i went to my lord's lodgings . mr. williams . what lord ? mr. wright . the young count's lodgings . mr. williams . well , and what then ? mr. wright . and i came to mr. hanson , and he did deliver a letter to mr. hanson , and i stayed there about half an hour , or there-abouts . mr. williams . when was this ? mr. wright . upon friday , the th day of this month . mr. williams . how long was mr. hanson and the polander together ? mr. wright . about half an hour . mr. williams . what said hanson to him in your presence ? mr. wright . mr. hanson said nothing . mr. williams . was there any thing said about going back , and paying his lodging , and coming back ? mr. wright . mr. hanson came down to me , and told me , he was glad to see me , and bid me take the polander back with me , and bring him to him to morrow betimes , for he must dispatch him about his business . sir fr. win. then he said nothing to the polander ? mr. wright . no , but to me . sir fr. win. well , what did you do the next morning ? mr. wright . i came to him the next morning to this polander , and he took his things with him , which was a sea-bed that he had , and a gun with a wheel-lock , and some other things . sir fr. win. and whither did you bring him ? mr. wright . i brought him to the upper end of the hay-market , monsieur faubert's school . mr. williams . to what place did you come in the morning , say you ? mr. wright . sir , if it please you , i brought him within a door or two of mr. faubert's the horse-master , that teaches to ride the great horse ; for he did desire that we might go to an house hard by , because he would not carry his carriage to my lord , he had a sea-bed , a portmantle , a gun , and other things ; and so i brought him to an house , and there i called for a pot of ale ; and he put down his things and went out , i thought he had gone to make water , but within a little while after returns again , and mr. hanson comes in with him ; he asked me why i did not come sooner ? i told him , i had some other business , i was with some french merchants to look upon some goods . so he bid the pole pay me for my trouble , and take up his things , and go along with him ; and he did do so , and i never saw the pole afterwards . l. cb. j. you that are the interpreters , repeat what he bath said to the jury . ( which was done . ) sir fr. win. we have done with this man , the use we make of him , is to follow this polander , and we shall bring him to the count by and by . call dr. frederick harder . ( who was sworn . ) l. ch. j. the doctor understands english , don't he ? sir fr. win. yes , we are told he does . mr. williams . how long have you known the count that stands there at the bar ? dr. harder . i have known him a good while ; it may be this four or five years ; i have known him four or five years . mr. vvilliams . how long have you known captain vratz ? dr. harder . about a year and a half , or two years . mr. vvilliams . was my lord and capt. vratz acquainted then ? dr. harder . yes . mr. williams . was he in employment under my lord ? was he in the counts service ? dr. harder . he was with the count , but whether he was his companion , i cannot tell . mr. vvilliams . did he live with the count ? dr. harder . yes . mr. vvilliams . did capt. vratz , when the count came last over into england , come over with him . dr. harder . yes , by my knowledg . l. ch. j. do you know it or not ? dr. harder . capt. vratz came to me , and told me , my lord desired to speak with me , and i went with him to my lord. sir fr. win. was that the first message you received from the count ? dr. harder . yes , it was . mr. williams . how long was that ago ? dr. harder . the same day the morocco embassador did exercise in hide-park . sir fr. win. how long is that ago ? dr. harder . about a month ago . sir fr. win. what , was that his first lodging after he came last into england ? dr. harder . it was in the hay-market . l. ch. j. was it a corner house , as the other witness saith , or not ? dr. harder . yes , it was . mr. williams . was the count a private lodger there ? dr. harder . he lay in his bed when i came to him ; he came as a traveller privately . mr. williams . did he go by his own name , or another name ? dr. harder . no body did question him about his name , but when i did come to him , i did discourse him about his body . mr. williams . pray sir , thus ; you went often to visit him , pray did you enquire for him by his own name , or any other name ? dr. harder . he desired that he might be private , because he was to take some medicines , and he would not have it known . mr. williams . now sir , i would ask you , did you observe him to be in any disguise ? did he wear a perriwig , or how ? dr. harder . he had a perriwig . mr. williams . was it a fair perriwig , or what colour ? dr. harder . it was brown or black . sir fr. win. sir , was he in a disguise , or no ? dr. harder . he had his own clothes , but he had a perriwig . sir fr. win. pray what name did he go by , his right name , or any particular name ? dr. harder . in the first beginning i gave him no name , but said he to me , if any body ask you about me , i would not be known ; for if they know that i lie privately thus , they will think i ail some ill distemper , therefore i would have you call me by the name of carlo cuski . mr. williams . were you with him , pray sir , upon the sunday morning that mr. thynne was murdered ? dr. harder . i cannot certainly tell , but i was with him in the afternoon . sir fr. win. pray call your self to mind , sir. dr. harder . i cannot certainly tell . sir. fr. win. what time were you with him in the evening ? dr. harder . at nine a clock at night , or thereabouts . mr. williams . did you receive any letter from capt. vratz at any time ? dr. harder . i did , upon saturday morning , the saturday before mr. thynne was murdered . sir fr. win. have you that letter about you ? dr. harder . no. sir fr. win. what was in the letter ? dr. harder . he desired me to go to the count , who had a desire to speak with me . i came there and had some speech with him about his indisposition ; i told him he had better stay till next day before he took physick , because it was cold weather . and after that went with the polander to my lodging , and the captains man came in , and then said , here is a man that will direct you to capt. vratz lodging ; which i did not know . mr. williams . look you , sir , you say you went to the count , did you shew the count that letter from capt. vrats , or no ? dr. harder . the count saw it . mr. williams . then hear a little , when was it you shew'd the letter to the count ? was it saturday or sunday ? dr. harder . it was saturday . mr. williams . now , was the polander then in the count's lodgings , or no ? dr. harde . yes , he was . mr. williams . was there any discourse about him then ? dr. harder . i had never seen him in my life . mr. vvilliams . but was there any with the count ? dr. harder , no , not at all . sir fr. vvin. then , upon your oath i ask you once more , was the polander ever in company with you and my lord at any time ? dr. harder . no. sir fr. vvin. upon the sunday , upon your oath ? dr. harder . no. sir fr. vvin. nor the saturday evening ? dr. harder . no , i have not seen him since that morning when the captains man took him along with him to his master . mr. williams . pray how came the polander into your company on saturday morning ? dr. harder . i had him from my lords that morning . mr. williams . then my lord and the polander were together ? dr. harder . no , they were not together . mr. vvilliams . was the polander in my lord's lodgings ? dr. harder . yes , the polander was below stairs . mr. vvilliams . and did you take him from the lodging ? dr. harder . yes , i did . mr. vvilliams . how long did he continue with you ? dr. harder . not at all , i went home with him . mr. vvilliams . had you no discourse with him ? dr. harder . no , none at all . mr. vvilliams . where did you part with him ? dr. harder . i brought him to my house ; and when he came in a doors , the captain 's man being there , i told him there was a man would shew him the captains lodgings ; and he took him away along with him . mr. vvilliams . you say , the captains man had the polander from you ; pray name that man. dr. harder . i cannot tell his name . mr. vvilliams . was his name berg ? dr. harder . i believe it was . sir fr. vvin. you say you delivered a letter from capt. vratz on saturday morning to the count ? dr. harder . yes . sir fr. vvin. did the count read the letter , and tell you the contents of it ? dr. harder . no , it was not sealed . sir fr. vvin. did not you know the contents of it then ? dr. harder . no. sir fr. vvin. pray , when you delivered the letter from capt. vratz to the count , what did the count say to you ? dr. harder . the letter was not written to the count , but it was writ to me . mr. vvilliams . what was the reason that you shewed it to him then ? dr. harder . i received a letter from capt. vratz , that the count desired to speak with me ; and afterwards i was desired to direct this man , the polander , to captain vratz ; and so i directed him to capt. vratz , and nothing more i know . sir fr. vvin. well , sir , one thing more and i have done with you , for you will not , i see , give a reasonable answer ; pray , when the polander came along with you from the counts , did you observe he had any thing about him ? dr. harder . he had a great campaign coat . sir fr. vvin. did he seem to have any thing under it ? dr. harder . he had a portmantle under it , i think , or some such thing . mr. craven . my lord , the count desires to ask him some questions . l. ch. j. let him ask what questions he will. mr. craven . my lord , he asks him whether he does not remember , when he first came to town , he had not his body full of spots ? dr. harden . yes , my lord , when he came from tangier , he had spots over all his breast ; and it was feared they might get up higher towards his neck , and indanger him very much . mr. craven . he says , if my lord pleases , he will shew it openly . l. ch. j. no , there is no need of that goctor . did you give him physick for that ? dr. harder . yes , for that i did administer physick to him . mr. craven . he says , my lord , he over-heated himself in riding to tangier , thinking to do the king and the nation service , and the heat broke out in spots over his brest . l. ch. j. the doctor knows nothing of that . mr. craven . he asks , whether the doctor was not desired by him to cure him ; whether he did not tell him he would cure him of those spots ? dr. harder . he desired me to administer physick unto him ? mr. craven . he says , he went to strasburgh , and when he came back , he was in the same condition he was in before ; and he asks whether the doctor did not undertake to cure him ? dr. harder . yes , i did administer physick unto him ; and this my own man can testify and be witness of ; because my lord bid me take care that he might be private , for he would not have it known that he did take physick ; but i told my man , said i , 't is my lord conningsmark , and therefore pray take care of him , and see that the physick be made very well up . l. ch. j. you seem to intimate , as if he lay private to take physick , pray let me ask you this question , did you give him physick all this time ? dr. harder . not always purging physick , but some sort of physick all the time ? l. ch. j. what every night and morning ? dr. harder . yes , every day . mr. craven . the count desires to ask him where he was that unhappy day this business was done ? dr. harder . i found him that day ill , lying down upon the bed , i asked him how his physick had worked ; he told me he was afraid he had got some cold ; and indeed i found him very much disordered , and i went home and fetched him some physick to take that night . l. ch. j. by the oath you have taken , was there any other occasion , or had you any other discourse with him , when you came on the sunday night , but concerning his physick ? dr. harder . my lord , i will tell you the truth ; i never heard the count speak any word in my life , that he had any concern , or design of any quarrel at all , nor any discourse , but about the administration of his physick . l. ch. j. let me ask you this question , for they desire it here , what was the occasion ? and whether you know the occasion why my lord altered his lodgings so often ? dr. harder . the first occasion was this , because it was in the hay-market ; and his man said it would be quickly known if he did continue there ; so he would take another lodging , which was in buperts-street , and there he lodged three days ; but the chimney did so smoke , that my lord could not stay , because he could have no fire in his chamber , and the weather was very cold , for it did snow , and therefore i told my lord , it was not so proper for taking of physick : thereupon he desired me to take him another lodging in queen-street , which i did look about for , but it was not ready , so he had a lodging taken for him in st. martins-lane , where he lodged till he went away . mr. williams . pray , sir , the physick that you gave the count , did it require his keeping within doors ? might not he walk abroad with it , upon your oath ? dr. harder . it did require him to keep in . mr. williams . pray then , how comes it to pass that the count so suddenly could go by water to gravesend ? dr. harder . i do not know what was done afterwards . sir fr. win. i would ask you one question , and i would fain have you give me a fair answer to it , what became of the letter that capt. vratz writ to you , and you shewed it to the count. dr. harder . it remained there upon the table . sir f. win. did not you keep your own letter ? dr. harder . it was not of any concern . sir fr. win. if the letter were written to you , it is not so long since , but you can tell us the contents of it ; pray what were the contents ? l. ch. j. can you remember what were the contents ? dr. harder . he desired me to go to count conningsmark , who would speak with me ; and that i would give his man an answer when i came from him . sir fr. win. but what were you to go to the count to do ? dr. harder . nothing , but the count discoursed to me about his own body and indisposition . sir fr. win. but capt. vratz was no physician ; why should he send you a letter to talk about physick ? dr. harder . it was nothing but my lord would speak with me . mr. williams . we need not trouble our selves with this fellow , he confesses he found the polander in the count's house . sir fr. withins . pray , sir , let me ask you , who was with the count on sunday night ? dr. harder . mr. hanson was there , i think . sir fr. withins . who else ? dr. harder . the captain came in , and went out again . sir fr. win. what time of night was it that vratz came in to the count ? dr. harder . it was at the same time that i was with him . sir fr. win. that he swears to be about nine a clock ; was it after mr. thynne was killed ? dr. harder . we had not heard it . sir fr. win. sir , was it nine of the clock ? dr. harder . yes , it was . mr. williams . you say you found the polanderat the count's lodgings ? dr. harder . yes , upon saturday morning . mr. williams . then he came along with you from the count's lodgings ? dr. harder . yes , to my house . mr. williams . and you parted with him there ? dr. harder . yes , the captains man took him away with him . mr. williams . that was berg , wa'nt it ? dr. harder . yes . then this evidence was interpreted to the jury . mr. craven . he desires the jury should know what the doctor said about his sickness . l. ch. j. let it be repeated to them . mr. craven . he desires to know whether he may not speak it in french himself . l. ch. j. no , the interpreter must do it ; ( which was done . ) my lord , would you ask any more questions of the doctor ? count conn . no more questions but them i have asked . sir fr. win. call thomas howgood . ( who was sworn . ) mr. williams . pray , did you sell any sword to the count ? mr. howgood . i sold a sword to the governor , a broad horseman's sword. mr. williams . when was this ? mr. howgood . on saturday was fortnight . mr. williams . what time was it that he bespoke it ? mr. howgood . he bespoke it half an hour after six at night . mr. williams . what did he say to you when he bought it ? mr. howgood . he said he would call for it about eight a clock at night , when he came from the play. mr. williams . what kind of sword was it ? mr. howgood . an horseman's sword , as broad as two fingers , such as the gentlemen of the guards wear . sir fr. win. when he came for the sword , what said he ? mr. howgood . he was angry it was not done , and i told him that i would send it to him quickly . sir fr. win. where was it sent . mr. howgood . to the governor's lodgings at the academy . mr. williams . now , my lord , we will call several persons that were privy to the concealing of this gentleman , that can give you a better account , richard hays and robert french. ( robert french appeared , and was sworn . ) sir fr. win. pray , will you tell my lord what you know of the count 's concealing himself , and changing his habit. mr. french. i never saw him , my lord , before i came here in court , but it seems he did lodg in my house three or four days . sir fr. win. how long is it since ? mr. french. between three weeks and a month ago , just ten days before the murder . sir fr. win. what name did he go by then ? mr. french. i did not know his name . sir fr. vvin. who used to resort to him at that time ? l. ch. j. you say , sir , you saw him not , what company did come to him ? mr. french. i did not see him indeed . sir fr. vvin. pray did capt. vratz come to him to your house ? mr. french. he lodged with him all the time . sir fr. vvin. you say you know capt. vratz was there ? mr. french. yes . mr. vvilliams . did dr. harder use to come to him ? mr. french. yes , several times a day . mr. vvilliams . what name did he enquire for him by ? mr. french. the doctor took the lodging , and it was for a stranger , i heard no name at all . interpreter . my lord desires to know , whether you did not suspect he took physick in the house ? mr. french. i suppose the doctor did give you an account of that , i don't know that he did . interpret . did not your maid know of any such thing ? mr. french. my maid is here , she will give you an account . sir fr. vvin. call ann prince ; ( who was sworn ) pray do you acquaint my lord what you know of count conningsmark ; whether ever you saw him at your masters house in the hay market ? prince . yes , he lodged there . mr. vvilliams . when ? prince . he came thither last friday was a month . mr. vvilliams . how long did he stay there ? prince . till vvednesday . mr. vvilliams . at that time , who used to frequent his company ? prince . i know no body but the doctor that used to come to him . mr. vvilliams . what name did he go by ? prince . no name at all as i know of ; they did not ask for him by any name . mr. vvilliams . did the captain use to come to him ? l. ch. j. her master says he did lie there . prince . yes , he used to lodg there . mr. vvilliams . did the captain give him any physick ? l. ch. j. no , but the doctor did . sir fr. vvin. he only asks a merry qustion . l. ch. j. but we are now upon the life and death of a man , pray let us have those questions asked that are serious , not such light things as are permitted in ordinary cases . sir fr. vvin. now , my lord , we will call francis vvatts . mr. craven . maid , my lord asks , whether he did not take a vomit in your house ? prince . not that i know of . then francis watts was sworn . l. ch. j. how old is the child ? fr. vvatts . fifteen years old last christmass . l. ch. baron . ask him whether he understands what an oath is ? mr. thynne . he was sworn before the king and council . l. ch. baron . if he were sworn before the council , he may give evidence here sure . sir fr. vvin. were you at the counts service at any time . vvatts . yes . sir fr. vvin. how long ? vvatts . i was with him eleven days ; i came to him upon the friday . sir fr. vvin. how long was it before the death of mr. thynne ? vvatts . i think it was ten days before the death of mr. thynne . sir fr. vvin. what was your employment with him ? vvatts . his boy to wait upon him . sir fra. winn. did you lye in the same lodging ? watts . no , at my fathers . sir fr. winn. what was the agreement between your father and the count ? watts . six pence a day , and my diet . sir fr. winn. what company did you observe came to the count's lodgings ? watts . that gentleman there in the black perriwig . sir fr. winn. was he often with your master ? watts . yes , every day . sir fr. winn. how many lodgings had he while you were with him ? watts . three : one in the hay-market , and one in rupert-street , and then the last in st. martins . mr. williams . thus child , do you remember the time of killing mr. thynne ? watts . yes . mr. williams . were you in your master's service then ? watts . yes , i was . mr. williams . who was in your master's company that morning before mr. thynne was killed ? watts . i came up , as i used to do in the morning , to my master , and he aked me what was the matter with the bustle in the street ? and i told him some body was taken upon suspicion for killing esq thynne . sir fr. wynn. that was on the monday morning ; but the sunday morning before , what company did you observe there then ? watts . i cannot tell any thing exactly of the sunday morning . sir fr. wynn. was captain vratz there ? watts . i can't exactly remember . sir fra. winn. what time in the evening was it reported mr. thynne was kill'd ? watts . about eight a clock . sir fra. winn. can you tell who brought the first news ? watts . one of my lady seymour's maids , who was telling the people of it below . sir fra. winn. did you observe any body come to your master's lodgings afterwards ? watts . yes . sir fra. winn. pray who came ? watts . that gentleman in the black periwigg . mr. williams . pray in what habit was he , and how came he in ? watts . he came in a great coat ; i can't tell whether it was cloath or chamblet . mr. williams , and what , did he speak to any body , or go strait up ? watts . no , he spoke to no body , but went strait up stairs . mr. williams . did he go up to your master's lodgings ? watts . yes , i believe so , but i stay'd below in the shop . mr. williams . how long did you stay in the shop ? watts . i stay'd there about half an hour . mr. williams . did you leave him there ? watts . yes , i did . mr. williams . did he continue there all the time that you were in the house ? watts . yes . mr. williams . what time did you go away ? watts . about three quarters of an hour after that gentleman came in . sir fra. withins . do you remember you had any discourse with the count , about riding on sundays . watts . he asked me on sunday in the fore-noon , whether people were suffered to ride about the streets on horse-back on sundays . sir fra. winn. this was that sunday morning , was it ? watts . yes : he asked if they might be suffered to ride about the streets on sunday , i told him yes , before sermon time and after sermon time . sir fra. win. about what time of the day was it that he had this discourse ? watts . about ten or eleven a clock . sir fra. winn. are you sure it was sunday ? watts . yes . sir fra. winn. then i ask you another question ; upon sunday morning or any other time , do you remember that the polander was with the count your master ? watts . he came in on the saturday morning . mr. williams . was he in the company or presence of the count ? watts . i was above stairs when he came in . sir fra. winn. what do you know of any sword that was delivered to him ? watts . upon the sunday morning there was a sword brought to my master's lodgings , and my master's man took it of me , and carried it up stairs , and this man , the polander , afterwards had it below stairs . mr. williams . when was this sword brought to your master's house ? watts . it was on the sunday morning . mr. williams . what , the cutler brought the sword ? watts . no , it was sent by a porter from mr. hanson . mr. williams . what room was it carryed into when it was brought ? watts . i think i did not carry it up : yes truly , now i remember , i did , and delivered it to my master . mr. williams . pray what did the count say to you ? watts . i asked him if there needed an answer of the note i carryed with it , and he said no. mr. williams . to whom was that sword delivered afterwards ? watts . it was brought down , and afterwards this polander had it . mr. williams . that man there ? watts . yes . mr. williams . you say that the sword was given to the polander : pray speak that the jury may hear . who brought down the sword ? watts . i saw it in the polander's keeping when it was below , but i cannot say who brought it down . sir fra. winn. where did the polander dine on saturday ? watts . he dined with my master's man and i on saturday . sir fra. winn. where did he lye that night ? at whose chamber ? watts . at our lodgings in the garret , in my master's man's chamber . sir fran. winn. what day was this , do you say ? watts . saturday . mr. williams . when the polander had the sword , do you remember any boots that he had under his arm. watts . yes , he had boots under his arm. mr. williams . and he had the sword with him when he went away ? watts . yes . mr. williams . had he any coat ? watts . yes , a new coat . mr. vvilliams . well , i ask you once more , what time of day was it that he went away with the sword and the boots ? watts . it was in the fore-noon . mr. vvilliams . vvhat day of the week ? watts . sunday morning . l. chief . just . ay , but your doctor that you examined before , says , the polander went away with him , and he was not there on sunday morning . sir fra. vvinn . it is true , my lord , it was too tender a point for the doctor , he lyes under some suspicion ; and 't is proximus ardet with him . l. chief . just . well call him again : look you doctor , you were asked before , and now you are asked again , were you at count coningsmark's lodgings on the sunday morning ? dr. harder . i cannot certainly tell . l. chief . just . when did you see the polander at the count's lodgings , and whether was it on sunday morning ? dr. harder . on sunday morning i did not see him . the only time was when i fetched him from my lords , i have not seen him before nor since . l. chief just . then call up the boy again . vvhere did the polander dine on saturday ? vvatts . he dined with me and my master's man. l. chief . just . vvhere ? watts . below , in the kitchin of our lodgings . l. ch. just . where lay the polander that night ? watts . he lay in our garret . l. ch. just . when went he from your master's lodgings ? watts . on sunday morning . mr. williams . had he an old coat or a new coat upon him ? watts . he had a new coat . l. ch. just . was the doctor with him ? watts . yes , the doctor went away with him . dr. harder . i have not seen the polander above once in my life . sir fra. win. but were you at the count 's on sunday morning , or no , i ask you ? dr. harder . i do not know whether it was saturday or sunday . l. ch. just . but when you fetched him away , was it saturday or sunday morning ? dr. harder my lord , i can't very well remember . l. ch. just . had the polander a sword when you went away with him ? dr. harder . i cannot positively say , but ( as travellers commonly have ) he might have a sword. sir fra. win. now come to your self , and deal honestly , for you are upon your oath ; i ask you , friend , this , you say he might have a sword , do you remember a pair of boots ? dr. harder . no , i do not . sir fra. win. do you remember the coat he had uppermost ? dr. harder . yes , he had something under his coat , but i don't know it was boots . l. ch. baron . had he a buff-coat under his campaigne ? watts . yes . sir fra. withins . let me ask you one question , young man , do you remember you saw any musquetoon in your master's lodging ? watts . i did see a gun there . sir fra. withins . when was that ? watts . i saw it upon saturday . mr. williams . the musquetoon or gun that was in your masters lodgings , was it that which was bought by the polander , or no ? watts . i can't tell that . mr. williams . was it a long piece or a short piece ? watts . it was not a short piece . l. c. just . did the polander take it away with him ? watts . no , not that i know of . mr. williams . now , young man , i would ask you as to monday morning : about what time on monday morning did you come to your masters lodgings ? watts . it was between and a clock , a little after seven . mr. williams . what condition was he in ? was he in bed , or up ? watts . he was up . mr. williams . what was he doing ? was he packing up ? watts . not that i see . sir fra. win. it was when he asked you about the hubbub in the street ; pray tell what he said to you . watts . he asked me what was the matter with the bustle in the street ? and i told him that some were taken that had killed esq thynne ; and i told him all the story as near as i could : he asked me when esq thynne was murdered ? i told him the night before , but i did not mind any thing that was done : but as i went down stairs , i met with a stranger , and he went up stairs , but i never saw my master after , till he was taken . sir fra win. did he ask you what mr. thynne was ? watts . yes , and i told him i heard he was a man of a great estate , and well-beloved , and that the duke of monmouth was in the coach but a little before , and if he had not gone out , he had been kill'd too . sir fra. win. vvhat said the count to you , when you told him mr. thynne was well-beloved ? vvatts . he said nothing . sir fra. winn. can you remember who it was came to your master then ? watts . i know the man if i see him again . sir fra. winn. do you know his name ? watts . no , i do not know his name . mr. williams . were any of your master's goods carried away then ? watts . yes . mr. williams . what goods were carried away then ? watts . two portmanteaus . mr. williams . who carried them away ? watts . my father carried them away . mr. williams . what time was it ? watts . between and of the clock . sir fra. winn. it was time to be gone . how parted you and your master ? watts . the stranger did come in , and i never saw my master afterwards . sir fra. winn. what , did your master take no leave , nor say any thing to you ? watts . no. sir fra. winn. what kind of periwigg had he when he went away ? watts . he had a black periwigg . sir fran. winn. what cloaths . watts . a light coloured suit , with gold buttons . l. ch. baron . will the count ask the boy any questions ? mr. craven . did you see the gun in the room after the polander was gone ? watts . yes . lord chief just . 't is very plain , that this gun was none of the gun that did this mischief , but the gun the polander brought over from beyond sea. sir fra winn. call the boy 's father , thomas watts ( who was sworn ) how long have you known the count ? t. watts . i do not know him but as i have seen him . sir fra. winn. were you employed to carry any thing for him ? t. watts . two or three times i was . mr. williams . vvhen were you last employed by him ? t. watts . the morrow after the murder was committed . mr. williams . what time in the morning was it ? t. watts . it was between and of the clock in the morning . mr. williams . what was it you did for him ? t. watts . i carried a portmanteau , and a portmanteau trunck , and some other things . mr. williams . where were you directed to deliver these ? t. watts . his man told me they were to go to windsor . mr. williams . well , tell the whole story . t. watts . he bid me carry them to charing cross , that they might be put into the coach there . but when he came to charing cross , a coach-man and he had some words , and he bid him open his boot , and then he took the things from me , and put them into the coach. l. chief just . who was it that told you they were to go to windsor ? t. watts . it was his man. sir fran. winn. i would ask you , sir , when was the first time you knew the count ? t. watts . it was ten or eleven days before . sir francis winning . what was the occasion that brought you acquainted with him ? t. watts . i was dr. frederick's porter , and he sent me to carry some things to the count. mr. williams . was it your son that waited upon him ? t. vvats . yes . for when i brought the things , they said they had forgot to give me a sword which i was to carry with the things ; and i said , that i had a boy that i would send , and i did so , and so they took a liking to the boy . mr. vvilliams . what was the agreement for your son's service ? t. watts . six pence a day , and his victuals . sir fran. winn. what was the man's name ( as you remember ) that gave you the things to carry to the coach , which were said to go to windsor ? t. watts . i can't tell his name . mr. williams . he that pinched and pushed you back , and took the things from you and put them into the coach ? l. c. justice . did you see the count that morning ? t. watts . no , i did not see him . mr. williams . have you been laboured and sought to by any body to conceal your boy , that he should not be brought at this tryal ? t. watts . no , sir. mr. williams . had you no endeavours used with you about it ? t. watts . no. mr. williams . did no body speak of any such thing to you ? t. watts . no. mr. williams . did any merchant or any body send to you about this body , to take him into service ? t. watts . there was a merchant that would have helped the boy to a place on saturday last , but the persons that would have procured it were about it a good while ago . mr. williams . call derick raynes , and richard chappel . ( who were sworn and raynes stood up . ) when did you see the count , the prisoner at the bar ? raynes . on monday in the afternoon . mr. williams . what time was it in the afternoon ? raynes . in the evening . mr. williams . where was it ? raynes . at my house . mr. williams . where is that ? raynes . at rotherith . mr. williams . how came the count to your house ? raynes . i know not , i was not at home when he came . mr. williams . pray when you saw him , had he his own hair or a perriwig , or how was he habited ? raynes . he had black hair then . mr. williams . how long did he continue at your house ? raynes . from monday till thursday morning . mr. williams . was he privately there or publickly ? raynes . he walked up and down the house . sir fran. win. what country-man are you ? raynes . i am a sweed . sir fran. winn. what became of him after thursday ? raynes . on thursday morning he took water and went to deptford . sir fran. winn. what way did he go , by boat , or how ? raynes . a waterman carried him . mr. williams . pray what did the count say to you about his coming in a disguise to your house ? raynes . i knew nothing at all . i came late home , and when i came to know of him what he was , then he told me that he was count coningsmark . mr. williams . what did he say to you when you discovered that he was the count ? what did he tell you of his business ? raynes . he said nothing ; but that he was desirous to go to graves-end . sir fran. winn. upon your oath , sir , did you furnish him with any clothes ? raynes . yes , i lent him a coat . sir fran. winn. what say you to a black suit ? raynes . the black suit did not belong to me . sir fran. winn. what say you to a velvet cap ? raynes . i helped him to a coat , stockings , and shoes . sir fran. winn. then i ask you , what did he declare to you ? raynes . why , he did desire to have those clothes . sir fran. winn. you are an honest man , tell the truth . raynes . he declared nothing to me . sir fran. winn. when you dressed him , why did he put on that habit ? raynes . he thought his own clothes were too cold to go upon the water . sir fran. winn. had he no clothes before ? raynes . yes , he had . mr. williams . you had the warmer coat , had you ? sir fran. winn. did he desire you to let him have your clothes , because he was in trouble ? raynes . he desired a coat of me , and a pair of stockings to keep his leggs warm , and when he had got them , his own shoes would not come on , so i lent him a pair of shoes . sir fran. winn. i do ask you , did he declare the reason why he would have those cloathes , was , because he would not be known ? raynes . he said he was afraid of coming into trouble . sir fran. winn. why were you unwilling to tell this ? raynes . assoon as i came to know he was the man , i told him he should not stay in my house . sir fran. win. did you lend him those clothes or sell them ? raynes . i lent him them . sir fran. winn. had you them again ? raynes . no , i had not . sir fran. winn. are you paid for them or no ? raynes . no , my ship lyes at the key , and i came home late in the evening , and found him there . sir fran. winn. set up richard chappel . mr. williams . when did you first see that gentleman ? chappel . on thursday morning at ten of the clock . mr. williams . where ? chappel . at rotherith . mr. williams . how came you to him ? who brought you ? chappel . that man. mr. williams . what were you to do with him ? chappel . to carry him to graves-end . mr. williams . do you row in a pair of oars , or a sculler ? chappel . a sculler . mr. williams . whither did you carry the count that day ? chappel . to deptford . mr. williams . whither the next day ? chappel . to greenwich . mr. williams . and whither then ? chappel . to greenhithe , and then the next day to graves-end . mr. williams . was he in the same clothes all the while ? chappel . yes , all the while . l. c. baron . were you hired to wait upon him all that time ? chappel . yes , i was to have s. every hours . l. c. baron . was he alone ? chappel . no , this man was with him . l. c. justice . did he go in the sculler with him ? chappel . yes , to deptford . mr. williams . well , now we will call the gentleman that seized him at the water-side at graves-end . sir fran. winn. what did the count call himself ? what profession did he tell you he was of ? chappel . he told me he was a merchant . sir fran. winn. did he say he was a jeweller upon your oath ? chappel . yes , he said he had bought jewels . sir fran. winn. where is mr. gibbons , and mr. john kid ? who were sworn and mr. kid stood up . mr. williams . mr. kid , pray sir , will you acquaint my lord and the jury , in what condition you found the count at graves-end . tell the whole story , and speak aloud , that all may hear you . mr. kid. i had some information upon friday night of him . mr. willians . of whom , and what ? mr. kid. of the count where he was . so i made it my business to inquire into it . on saturday in the afternoon a gentleman came to me , and gave me certain information where he thought that gentleman the count was . this gentleman coming to me said , mr. thynne is a stranger to me , but said he , i would not have mr. thynn's blood lye at my door . this same person who is put out in the gazette , i believe , is at a neighbours house of mine . says he , i desire you to be private in it , because it may do you a prejudice : so we went into a coach at charing-cross to go to a justice of peace ; i did not know where sir john reresby lived , but inquired of mr. gibbon's , who told me , but he was not at home , and mr. bridgman was not at home ; so we went to the recorder , and there we had a warrant , and then i came by water to rotherith , and this same raynes that was examined , and his wife where he lay , were gone to greenwich to carry his clothes , a grey suit , and other clothes that he had left . so going down to greenwich we called every boat that was upon the river aboard of us , to know whence they came . and we had taken her sister along with us , and she called out her sisters name mall raynes , and her brothers name derrick raynes , and so at last we got the boat wherein they were on board us . and we asked the man , what he had done with the gentleman that lay at his house ? he declared , he was gone away he did not know whither . so i went back again to this gentleman that gave me this first information , who did go to him as a neighbour , to know whither he was gone , and where he was to be found , and where he would land. so he declared the particulars , that if we missed him that night , we should have him in the hope upon monday morning , upon a vessel that was to be cleared on monday morning . so upon sunday night coming to graves-end about or a clock , or there abouts , there he landed . there were or swedes at the same house where he was to land. so we thought it convenient to take him at his first landing , for fear of further danger . so i stay'd at the red lyon back-stayres , and he landed at the fore-stayres where the watermen were . as soon as he was laid hold of , i came to him , said i , your lordship shall not want for any thing that is convenient . he desired to know , whether i knew him ? i told him ; yes , and that his name was count coningsmarke . that is my name , says he ; i do not deny it . so the maior came and the custom-house officers searched him ? and found nothing at all of any arms about him . he desired he might be used like a gentleman , and so he was , for there was no abuse given to him , as i know of . coming up the river , the most of my discourse was about martial affairs ; a serjeant that had the command of a file of musqueteers , which the deputy-governour sent to guard the count to white-hall , a gentleman sitting there by me was asking me concerning mr. thynne's murder ; i told him , that i was at new-gate on friday , and there i saw those that had done that barbarous fact. with that , my lord asked , what lodgings there were in new-gate . and whether the captain had a good lodging ? i told him a very good one . he asked me , whether he confessed any thing ? i told him he had confessed some particulars ; and said i , 't is the most barbarous thing that ever was done . certainly , says my lord , this mr. thynne must have correspondence and commerce with some lady that this captain knew , that belonged to the court , or he would never have done it . as for the polander , i told him , that he had confessed , he wept mightily . with that my lord seemed very much concerned , and took up his clothes and bit them , and sat awhile up , but was very much discomposed , and then desired to lye down . sir fran. winn. that was , when you told him , the polander had confessed . mr. kid. yes ; my lord was mightily altered in his countenance . sir fran. winn. did you at the first time that you seized him charge him with the murder ? mr. kid. no , i did not . sir fran. winn. was he in a black perriwig ? mr. kid. his cap fell off , and his perriwig , just as i came to him . sir fran. winn. set up mr. gibbons . pray will you tell what passed . mr. gibbons . my lord , assoon as ever he came to shore , i walked by him , and gave him a little kind of a justle , and my reason was , to see whether he had not a black coat under his campaign : i walked close to him just in this manner , as he walked along , so he turns about again , and went down to the water side , and asked the water-men , watermen , have you stowed your boat ? he answered , yes ; then come away said he ; so soon as he came back again , i catched him fast hold by the arm , and the first word he said to me was , what do you come to rob me ? said i , my lord , you are my prisoner , and i told him i was the king's messenger that had waited there several days for him ; holding of him very hard whether , that was the occasion of it , or the waterman that were on the other side of him , he dropped down his sword between his leggs ; but when i named his name , he gave a little start and his perriwig dropped off of his face . we went up the street to the mayor , and the people crowding about us were very rude and very rugged , and he desired he might be well used . we did all we could to keep the people from him ; we went up to the mayor's house , and when we came there , i desired he might be searched , whether he had any arms ; he said , he had none , and there was none . sir fran. winn. when you had the custody of him , whither did you carry him ? mr. gibbons . we carried him to the mayor's house , and after we removed him from his house to an inn. sir fran. winn. what did you do the next day ? mr. gibbons . we stayed there about some or hours . after an hour or half an hours time , near upon an hour , my lord came to me , and asked me my name ; and he said , the reason was , that after his trouble was over , he would give me thanks for my civility to him . captain sinkleer , who stood by , gave him my name before i could , that it was gibbons . yes said i , my name is gibbons , and i belong to the duke of monmouth : why says he , the duke of monmouth has no command now , and therefore how could i take him by his order ? my lord , said i , i do not apprehend you by his order ; you have killed a very good friend of mine , and had not providence ordered it otherwise , you had like to have killed a more particular friend , and a master : so my lord he seemed to be very sorry at that ; but says he , i don't think they would have done any harm to the duke of monmouth . sir fran. winn. what else did he say ? mr. gibbons . i think i have told you all that is material . sir fran. winn. were you in the boat at any time , and gave him any account of the man's having confessed ; what did he say to it ? mr. gibbons . sir , i was not there , nor i did not come up in the same boat with him . mr. williams . did he mention any thing about a stain to his blood ? mr. gibbons . i ask your pardon , he did so . mr. williams . what did he say ? mr. gibbons . says he , it is a stain upon my blood ; but one good action in the wars , or one lodging upon a counterscarp will wash away all that . l. c. justice . what did he say was a stain upon his blood ? mr. gibbons . my lord , if you please , i will tell you . as i said , he asked me my name , because he would come to give me thanks for my civility after his trouble was over ; the captain being quicker than i , told him my name : yes , sir said i , 't is gibbons , and i belong to the duke of monmouth ; said he , he has no command now , how could you come upon his order ; said i , i do not come upon his command , but you have killed a very good friend of mine , and a country-man , and if providence had not ordered it otherwise , you had killed a more particular friend of mine , and a master , that i had served many years ; said he , i don't think they would have done the duke of monmouth any injury : after that he walked up and down a while , and then said he , 't is a stain upon my blood ; but one good action in the wars , or lodging upon a counterscarp will wash away all that . the mayor was in the room , and several others . sir fran. winn. pray sir , one thing more , when you did speak to him of confession , did he say any thing to you about captain vratz ? mr. gibbons . sir , he was only asking of me how things were , what the people said or some such thing ? i was not forward to tell him at first , but afterwards i did tell him , that the captain had made a confession , though it was a thing i did not know then . says he , i do not believe the captain would confess any thing . l. c. justice . did he say so ? mr. gibbons . yes , he did to the best of my remembrance . sir fran. winn. we have done with our evidence , my lord. l. c. justice . my lord coningsmarke , will you ask him any thing ? count coningsmarke . no. l. c. justice . then the next thing is , you heard the evidence that is given against you . now you must come to your defence ; i will put you in mind of some things , my lord , which things it will concern you to give some accompt of . it is here laid to your charge , that you were accessory to this murder of mr. thynne ; and that you were the person that directed and designed it . and these evidences there are against you , that you were cognizant of this , and that you were the person that designed this : that you came here into england about a fortnight or weeks before the death of mr. thynne , that captain vratz , who was one of them that killed him , came with you , that he lay at your lodging , that he was constantly with you , that you lay incognito there and private , would not be known what your name was , that you shifted lodgings from time to time , that borosky the polander came over by your order , was brought to your lodging , was provided for there , that he had clothes , and he had a sword provided by your lordship for him , and that there was care taken that it should be an extraordinary good sword , that you did discourse to mr. hanson about your calling of mr. thynne to account , and this much about the time , or a little before the time of his death , and what the laws of england would be in case you should call mr. thynne to account , and particularly you desired to know what monsieur lienberg's opinion might be concerning it , and especially what in relation to my lady ogle . and that after all this , mr. borosky was not only clothed by you , but was sent by you to vratz , ( that the doctor says ) and after vratz , him , that he lay in your lodging that night before this evil thing was done , and that after the thing was done , the same night vratz came to your lodging and was with you , and had private conference with you , that the next morning you got up and went away , tho' you had taken physick the night before , and tho' you your self nor your doctor thought you fit to go abroad , and you go away incognito , in a perriwig , disguised , you direct your servant to carry your clothes one way , while you go another , then you go down to the water-side , and lye private near the river , at a swedes house at rotherith , for several days together , you afterwards take great care to conceal your self by changing your clothes , and putting your self into a garb not like your own , & giving out you were a merchant or a jeweller or some other trade , that afterwards you trifled away the time and went or miles , and then struck in upon one side of the river , and afterwards on the other side of the river suspitiously up and down not to be known , and this not like your self in any manner , but in a pitiful poor disguise , and hire a sculler to carry you , from whom you concealed your self , and so all along you trifled away the time till you were taken at graves-end ; that afterwards when you were taken , you were inquisitive about the captain , whether he did confess ; that you should likewise say some such suspitious words as these , that you believed those that killed mr. thynne , had no design against the duke of monmouth , that you believed the captain would not confess , that you seemed to be concerned when you were told the polander had confessed , that afterwards you should say , my lord , this is a stain to my blood ; but one good action in the wars , or a lodging upon a counterscarp , will take away all this or wash it clean . and then , which is also testified against you , that you should ask the boy that very morning of the day , the murder was committed ; whether they used in london here to permit men to ride up and down on horse-back upon a sunday ? now these things , my lord , it will import you to give some account of . sir n. johnson . my lord says , he desires he may answer all these things one after another . l. c. justice . let him do so . and first let him answer what his reason was to come into england in such a manner incognito at this time , and lye concealed when he had been in england before , and lived in a mighty good equipage & condition ? mr. craven . my lord , he says , that hearing there was a peace between sweedland , and england , and holland designed , and like to be confirmed suddenly against the french , he came with a design to serve england , and to raise a regiment of horse here for the service of the king of england . count conningsmarke . if any such peace should be , if any appearance of an alliance between england , and holland , and sweedland , i had a design to propose if i could have a regiment . l. c. justice . why did he come unknown and in a disguise ? sir n. johnson . secondly , he says , my lord , the reason of his coming incognito was ; because he had a distemper upon his arms and breast , and having formerly tryed and imployed this physitian , and having experience that he was an able man , he was resolved to lye privately till he had cured himself , for he could not drink wine nor keep company having this distemper upon him , and he was afraid if he had kept company it would have hindred his cure , and he should not have been so soon cured as if he kept in the house , and he says , that his equipage could not come till after , and he would not willingly appear till he had his equipage as a man of his quality ought to do , and these were the reasons that made him keep private . l. c. justice . pray ask him upon what occasion he did change his lodgings so often . sir n. johnson . he says , that his first lodging was changed , because it was too cold for him , and he says , the next lodging where he was , those that were there can tell , the room where he was smoaked so cruelly , that he was not able to endure it . and he says , he liked the house so well , that he sent to see if the chimney could be mended , and it was not to be done , otherwise he had gone back to that house , and he has the man and his wife to bear witness of it if you please . l. c. justice . let him call them . count. call joseph parsons and his wife ( but they did not appear . ) l. c. justice . then ask my lord this , to what purpose he did bring over this polander here ? he ought to consider of that and give an account why he brought him hither . interpreter . he says this pole was taken into his service when he went to tangier , when he went several of miles to do the king service , and he had designed at that time to bring him into england to dress his horses after the german way . l. c. justice . had the polander been a groom formerly ? interpreter . he says he thinks he had been groom to his uncle before . l. c. justice . but to what purpose did he bring him hither ? interpreter . he says , there was a great discourse about strasburgh's being besieged , he did design to buy some horses , for every one did arm themselves , and he says , he sent over pistolls to be answered by the merchants here , to buy horses . l. c. justice . hath he any body to prove it ? count. there is mr. risby , mr. hanson , and my brother . young count. my lord , i had a bill of exchange . l. c. justice . for how much money , my lord ! young count. for pistolls to buy horses , and he has bought one horse , and was to buy more . l. c. justice . do you hear gentlemen what he says ? he came over to buy horses , and he returned pistolls for that purpose , and his brother does attest there was such a sum returned by bills of exchange , for the buying of horses . interpreter . my lord , he says , he does fear that the jury that do not understand english , do not understand his reasons for being in a disguise . l. c. justice . can't he give an account of it himself ? mr. williams . no , my lord , his evidence must be interpreted to them by the interpreter . l. c. justice . the doctor 's evidence hath been heard already about the same matter . sir n. johnson . he desires my lord to know this ; whether he may not say the fame things over again to the jury in french , there are a great many persons of quality that understand it , and they will see whether he speak true . l. c. justice . let him if he pleases . sir fran. winn. but then , my lord , i hope that your lordship will tell the jury it goes for nothing without proof . then the count spake to the jury in french. l. c. justice . my lord , i do not know whether the gentlemen that are of your right hand , heard you or not . jury-man . we understand not french. then the count spake it in dutch. interpreter . he says , if it had not been for the great stormy weather , the polander had been sooner in london , for he sent for him before . he says , the letters go from strasburgh to hamburgh in days , and that most commonly ships do come from thence in days , but in a great deal less time then the polander came over in . and he says , that he writ months before to setch the polander over , and he might have been long ere now if it had not been for the weather . l. c. justice . then my lord , i would ask you some more questions , which it concerns you to answer . upon what occasion did you make your discourse of mr. thynne's death to mr. hanson ? had you any discourse with him ? and upon what occasion ? sir n. johnson . my lord , he says in common discourses , 't is impossible to give an accompt of the discourse , or remember the occasion of it so long ago . l. c. justice . ask him if he had any quarrel with mr. thynne ? or knew mr. thynne . sir n. johnson . he says , my lord , that he never had any quarrel with mr. thynne , nor to the best of his remembrance with these eyes never saw mr. thynne . l. c. justice . then i ask you this , my lord , did you ever hear mr. thynne had married my lady ogle before you last came into england ? interpreter , he says , he never heard of it till he was going to strasburgh , and then all the whole town did talk of it . l. c. justice . how long is that ago ? interpreter . half a year ago . l. c. justice . then it was before his last coming into england . sir fr. winn. my lord , his discourse with mr. hanson , was not when he was last in town , but before . l. c. justice . then pray ask him this , what occasion he had to ask the boy upon sunday , whether horses might ride about the town of a sunday ? interpreter . he says , my lord , this is a very strange thing , that he should go and ask a scullion-boy , whether people might ride on sundays , when he himself over and over again has rid upon sundays to hide-park , as many persons of quality do . l. c. justice . has he any body to prove it ? sir n. johnson . here is major ogelthorpe ( who with divers other gentlemen testified they had seen him riding diverse times , on sundays in hide-parke . ) l. c. justice . then that question signifies nothing , there could be nothing in that question . sir n. johnson . my lord , he desires that i may be examined concerning this boy , of what i heard by chance from the boy himself , and i will give you an account of it upon my faith and reputation . l. c. justice . do so , sir nathaniel , say what you can say . sir n. johnson . my lord , i having had the honour to serve a while under my lord's father , i was desirous knowing the honour of the family , and bearing a great respect to it , to do my lord all the reasonable service i could . so hearing my lord was taken , and in newgate , i went to wait upon him , and coming there mr. richardson told me , there was a little boy waited at the count's door for his wages , as he said . so i spake to the boy , and asked him what does thou stay for ? he told me for his wages . said i , certainly my lord will pay you his wages ; how long have you serv'd him ? said he , a little while , and then said i , if you lived with him , what do you know of this business . and then of himself he began and told me , only this i know , that vratz was in my master's chamber that night , and the polander that night went out with a pair of boots under his arm , and more then this i do not know . said i. boy who do you serve ? says he , i have no master at present , but then of his own accord he told me , sir thomas thynne had promised him a place , and in the mean time , i am says he , to go to serve my lord privy-seal ; so my lord gave him twenty shillings for his wages . interpreter . my lord desires the boy may be asked , whether he did not go to fetch physick . l. c. justice . ask him , where is the boy ? watts . no , i do not remember it . l. c. justice . now , you should put the count in mind . sir fran. winn. we observe what a sort of interpreter sir nath. johnson is : he speaks more like an advocate than an interpreter , he mingles interpreter and witness and advocate together , i don't know what to make of him . l. c. justice . the count had taken physick that day . sir thomas thynne . my lord , i desire to be heard , i never spake to the boy in all my life . mr. thynne . nor i. but he gave the same testimony he gives now , before the king and council . l. c. justice . look you , sir thomas , it does not concern you at all to speak to that , there is no reflection made upon you in it . but , my lord conningsmarke , it will concern you a little ; to shew upon what occasion captain vratz came to you that night , that mr. thynne was killed . interpreter . he says , my lord , he can't tell why he came there , it 's a proper question to ask captain vratz himself . l. c. justice . that can't be . interpreter . he says , my lord , he kept his chamber at that time , he had taken cold upon his taking physick , and the captain came to give him a visit , and he never reflected upon any one he came for , he was lying upon his bed. l. c. baron . pray ask my lord this , why this man that was sent over to attend horses , should come upon the friday , and a campaign coat be bought him on the saturday , and he furnished with a sword on the sunday ? interpreter . my lord , the noise is great , but i suppose your lordship desires to know what was the reason , why he bought a sword for him and a coat . l. c. baron . ay , and how he came by the buff-coat . interpreter . he says , he had that before . l. c. baron . but why must he have such a strong basket-hilted sword furnished him in a days time ? interpreter . he says , my lord , as to the clothes , when he saw him with all his clothes torn , he must of necessity get him a coat , or else he was a shame to him , and his service . and as for the sword , it was no more ( he says ) then what servants of his bulke and making used to wear . sr. n. johnson . and he says , all the servants of gentlemen in germany , wear such broad swords . l. c. justice . you know it your self , sr. nathanael johnson , you have travelled there . s. n. johnson . yes , my lord , they do , and the poles , much broader and greater swords then the others . here is one in court , that hath a great broad sword now by his side . l. c. justice . now , my lord , it will import you to give some accompt , how , you having brought over this polander ( as you say ) to choose horses , and help you in the management of them , to take care of them , in the nature of a groom , how you came to part with him , to captain vratz assoon as he came over . interpreter . my lord , he says , being that he was sick himself , and there was no hopes of the alliance between england and holland , he had no such occasion for him , as when he wrote for him , and therefore saw no reason to keep him . l. c. justice . how long was it , before that he wrote for him ? count. my lord , after the siege of strasburgh , when every body thought there would have been a war , but it was not so ; therefore i had not need of him , but he had been weeks at sea , and my lord , 't is a common thing in germany . interpreter . he says , 't is common thing in their country , to give servants away , if there be no occasion for them . count. my lord , t is a common thing in germany , it may be , it may not be so much used in england to give a servant away . l. c. baron . what! the next day that he comes over ? l. c. j. what say you sir nathaniel johnson ? sir n. johnson . yes , my lord , 't is very frequent in germany to give a servant away if there be no use of him , for these polanders are like slaves . interpreter . and , my lord , he says , that mr. russel does know , that the merchant that sent him over hither is a man of good repute , and if this man had had an ill reputation in germany , he would not have sent him . witness . my lord , i know very well he is a man of very great credit in hamburgh , and of great estate . l. c. j. did he send over this polander ? witness . yes , my lord , so i understand . l. c. j. can you speak of his credit sir nathaniel johnson ? witness . of the merchant's credit i can my lord , i know him to be a man of considerable estate and credit . he is a man of such a reputation , that he would not send a man of an ill reputation . l. c. baron . oh sir , nemo repente fit turpissimus . he could not be so ill a man at the first dash , he must be a man probable for such a service . sir fr. winn. you may observe my lord , how sir nathaniel johnson who is interpreter in the case is a witness , and argues for the prisoner too . mr. williams . pray sir nathaniel , is a rancounter the killing a man after this manner ? sir n. johnson . a rancounter is another sort of thing sir , you don't speak as if you were a souldier . mr. williams . my being a souldier or not is nothing to the business , but the captain , said he , intended to have made a rancounter of it . sir francis winn. but my lord , we desire to take notice of sir nathaniel's forwardness ; for it may be a president in other cases . l. c. j. what do you talk of a president ? when did you see a president of alike tryal of strangers , that could speak not a word of english ; but you would feign have the court thought hard of , for doing things that are extraordinary in this case . mr. craven . my lord , he desires he may inform the jury , what he sent for this polander for . l. c. j. let him . then the count spake it in french and dutch. l. c. j. my lord , another thing is this , how came your lordship presently to go away in such a private secret manner , and to direct your cloaths to be sent as it were to windsor ? and your self to go away , and to make such a private withdrawing of your self down the river in this manner ? mr. craven . my lord , he says , that one markham that is here , came and told him that upon the killing of this man by the polander and the captain who were taken in such a fact , there was a discourse of it that it might turn to his prejudice , and that the common people do commonly fall upon strangers , that his taylor told him , that he had heard the common people name him as concerned in it , and that he believed , if the common people did catch him , they would tear him to pieces , and so his friends did counsel him that he would withdraw himself . l. c. j. is the taylor here ? call him . interpreter . call markham the taylor ( who stood up . ) sir n. johnson . my lord , he says that he was afraid the people might tear him to pieces , before he could come to justify himself . l. c. j. look you friend , did you come to count coningsmark's lodgings after mr. thynne was killed on the monday morning , markham . yes . l. c. j. what did you tell him ? markham . i told him nothing , but i was sent there by mr. hanson , says he , tell the count that the duke of monmouth and several noble-men have been here , now i had not seen the count at that time before , but he told me where he lodged , when i came there i told the count of it , but he told me he knew nothing of it , but sayd he , i am sorry if any such thing be done . l. c j. but what did you say his friends advised him to about it ? markham . i did say nothing of it . then the count spake to him in dutch. markham . that was afterwards . l. c. j. what was that afterwards ? markham . i was told , the people said , if he were taken , he would be knocked on the head . l. c. j. what time afterwards was it ? markham . after he went away . l. c. j. who told you so then ? markham . mr. hanson told me so then , i would not tell a lye for all the world. count. he can tell also when i went away — the rest he spake in dutch. interpreter . he says this man can witness , that he asked his man , what money he had left , and he told him that he had not above . or l. so he put his hand in his bag and took out some and put it into his pocket . count. so ill was i provided for an escape . l. c. j. ask him that question , do you know any thing of what money he took with him ? markham . no , i saw him take an handful of silver , but what it was i can't tell . mr. thynne . he had or l. about him when he was taken . interpreter . he desires leave to tell it to the jury , ( which he did . ) l. c. j. now my lord this will require some answer , how came you to tell those gentlemen that took you , that you believed mr. uratz and the rest would have done the duke of monmouth no harme ? interpreter . he says , the people told when he was taken , that the duke of monmouth was in the coach , and that they did follow the coach a great way and would not do the action till the duke of monmouth was out of the coach. count. they did tell me , the crowd that were about me , that those that were taken say'd they would not do it till the duke was out . interpreter . and he says , that gave him sufficient reason to say to mr. gibbons that he did believe , they had no design upon his grace the duke of monmouth . l. c. j. he heard it so commonly it seems . now my lord , there is one thing more that you should explain your self , in what you meant by this , when you said it would be a stain upon your bloud , yet one noble act in war or the lodging upon a counterscarp would wash it off . interpreter . he says my lord , that tho he knew himself not guilty of any thing , yet his being taken upon suspition , and clapped up in prison , would be a great disgrace to him , and would be worse resented in his own country than the thing it self was . it being not the custom in his country to take persons of his quality prisoners in that manner . l. c. j. now my lord , is there any person that you would have called to ask any questions of ? if you have , they shall be called . count. no my lord , but if you please to give me leave to tell something that may be necessary . then he spake in dutch. sir n. johnson . my lord , he says , if you will give him leave , though it does not come very well from himself , yet he desires to say something for his own reputation . mr. williams . he should be armed with witnesses to make his defence . l. c. j. t is fit for men that stand here to say any thing that is reasonable for themselves . my lord , if you can speak anything that you apprehend the jury can understand , speak to them what you please , so as they understand it , but do not be too long . mr. craven . my lord , if your lordship please , he says he will speak it first in french , and then in german . l. c. j. ay ; but then the english man of the jury will not understand a word of it ; he had better speak in english to the jury . l. c. j. north. my lord , it is an indifferent thing , it may be interpreted not being matter of fact. sr. n. johnson . my lord , he says it is a great happiness in all his trouble , that he was in a country , where he was to appear before a protestant judicature , himself being a protestant , and his fore-fathers also . he says that his fore-fathers under gustaphus adolphus were souldiers , and did there with their swords in their hands , and the loss of their bloud endeavour to settle the protestant . religion in germany , and protect it there ; he says , that it has been the honour of himself , and his family , that they have always been ready to venture their bloud , and their lives for the advantage of the protestant religion , as the examples of his grand-father , and father do shew , and there never was any thing done by his family , but what was done for the honour of his country , and his religion ; and he says , that if any of his former actions can give any the least suspition of his being guilty of this or any foul fact , he is very willing to lay down his life , and very willing to have it cut off imediately . count. imediately . sr. n. johnson . he says , that he is very ready upon all occasions to serve the king of england , and that he loves the english nation so well , as always to be ready to do any thing to serve them . count. without any interest in the world , against the will of all my relation , and i have brought my brother into england to be brought up into the protestant religion to shew my inclinations to the religion , and the english nation . ld. ch. just . have you done ? sr. fra. winn. yes , my lord , we have done with our evidence , and we have no matter of fact to reply unto ; but we think it is our duty , considering the defence my lord has made , that we should take some care to put the kings evidence a little together , it being a case of such nature , and so cruel and horrid a murder . my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am of counsel here for the king , and you are gentlemen upon an inquiry to find out the offendors in a very great , a barbarous , and a wilful murder . and , my lord , in relation to the principals , i need not spend your lordship , and the jurys time about them ; for all those three men , that are indicted as principals , do my lord confess the fact , tho they do it in a different manner , and tho in forme of law they are pleaded not guilty , yet when they come to be asked the question , there guilt flys in their faces , and they cannot deny it . so then for those three men there is no need to spend time in repeating the evidence . but , my lord , that that seems to require the consideration of the jury is , whether this wicked , and horrid murder be only circumscribed in the guilt of it to those three men that have confessed it , or whether any rational man in the world will beleive upon the account they give themselves , that they only had a design , a study , or a delight to kill this innocent gentleman . no , my lord , the thing must lie a little deeper , and there must be some other reason , why this barbarous murder was committed , i would crave your pardon for what i say . my lord , i would not speak any thing , that should mislead a jury in matters of bloud , and i think it was rightly sayd by your lordship , that when a man is tryed for his life , we ought all to behave ourselves seriously as in a matter of weight and moment . and so it is i think a very serious thing , and a matter of concernment to us all to inquire who hath shed innocent bloud ; for such was this poor gentlemans bloud , that was killed , innocent bloud . my lord , this count is a very unhappy person to have such a relation as has been proved to be of the principals ; i will do , my lord , no wrong in the repetition , if i do , and am mistaken i crave your direction , i am sure ( you will correct me in it . ) two of the persons that are principals that was captain uratz and the polander happen'd to be persons relating to my lords family as his servants . for it is agreed by the witnesses that were that counts friends , that i came over into england with the count , the last time he came over in that private manner , and 't is likewise proved , and not denyed by him , that captain uratz was frequently with him , not only to the very day when , this bloudy fact was done , but after that great crime was committed , i say , my lord , 't is a very unfortunate thing for this lord , that those men should have so near a relation to him , who have had their hands in it , and can give no account why they did it . my lord , i do know ( and your lordship has justly directed us ) that no evidence from one prisoner , or the confession of one can charge the others in point of evidence ; but i cannot but take notice that captain uratz could give no reason in the world for it , but as it were for some affront to the count and himself . but , my lord , the evidence that lyes heavy upon this lord at the bar is made up of these particulars . first , that here is a murder committed is plain , then that this lord did fly is also plain , and when he did fly ? gentlemen , he kept himself in disguise before that fact was committed , and whether or no the reasons be sufficient that he has given to your lordship , and the jury must be left to consideration . he says that he had not his equipage , that he was not very well , and that he could not drink wine : those i take to be the reasons given , why my lord coningsmark did conceal himself , till the time after the fact was comitted . l. ch. just . he was taking of physick , and he thought it might be prejudicial to him to drink wine , or keep company . sr , fr. winn. but , my lord , these kind of shifts we think , are not able to ballance the evidence , for that which is truly the evidence is this mr hanson , who is very much conversant in that family , and who did give his evidence very unwillingly , yet , he did really confess that which will go very far in this case ; for after he was pressed several times ( your lordship and the court , and the council pressed him ) to tell what was the reason of that discourse he had with the swedish resident , and he was asked , had you any command from my lord coningsmark ? he answered no ; but says he , i thought it would please him , if i could have the opinion of the agent or resident to know what the laws of england were , if so be he called mr. thynne to account , and what the consequence would be in reference to his design upon my lady ogle , and upon this he does go , and ask the question of the resident . now , what does he mean by this calling to account ? we must take things according to the reason of them . certainly it was some offence that he had taken to mr. thynne , and that is plain in regard when he was asked what the prejudice did refer to mr. hanson , was pleased to name that great lady , my lady ogle , and say'd she was mentioned , and he did desire to know what the influence of the laws of england would be in that matter , if he should call him to account . my lord , i think with submission it carrys this in it , as if he had a purpose in his mind to call mr. thynne to account by quarrelling with him and hazarding him in his life , i do not undertake , nor would not of myself to expound it , but this i will say , it must signify something , and must have some consideration , and without all doubt a person of this lords quality would not let fall such an expression , but for some end and purpose . my lord , after mr. hanson had given his long evidence , which came so difficultly from him , we traced it down by several witnesses , wright , harder , and others , that this polander came over as it happened on the friday , ( which is a thing that comes mighty close , ) upon the saturday he is provided with a coat and a sword ; on the sunday he committed this inhumane bloudy fact. now it is a mighty unfortunate circumstance upon this lord , that this should be a man whom my lord coningsmark should be so very much concerned for , that because he was not come , he should be afraid he had miscarryed in the weather , to that his answer was this , that he was sent for over by him to look after his horses , and he had come a great deal sooner , if it had not been for the stormy weather . but , your lordship observes , that it was not above three or four moneths before , and then by his own shewing the business of mr. thynne , and his mariage with my lady ogle was talked of far , and near ; and so my lord , it makes the suspition of the malice the greater , that he who has done this bloudy murder , and has been so much under the command of this lords family , that he should come but two days before , and the count provide him with a sword that very day , and then that letter from captain uratz to dr. harder , which he carryed to the count , and the count read , but of which he can tell you none of the contents ; that speak something in regard when the doctor went away , this polander was sent to the captain by the doctor ; but this is certain , however , there was a sword that was brought by the cutler , that sword was carried up to the count's chamber , that sword was delivered afterwards to the polander ; for he had it on the sunday morning when he went away with the boots under his arm , and the campagne-coat upon his back , with a buff-coat under it ; and he went out , and never returned till the fact was committed . i say my lord , it carries a vehement suspition , that he was privy to this murder , because this was a servant at his devotion , and your lordship and the jury see what kind of a creature he is , likely to do any thing , being at the command of so great a person . but then my lord , to come closer to the matter ( for i will only repeat that which is most material ) there is the evidence of the boy , who i must say , tells you a very sensible story ; he tells you upon what account he came to him , that he was there ten days before the murder was committed ; he swears expresly , that the polander lay there the night before , was there that morning , went away with the sword , and doctor harder with him ; that this murder was committed about eight a clock at night , that captain uratz came bustling into the count's lodgings , where he lay concealed , and the boy by agreement , being to go home every night , stay'd half an hour till past nine , and left the captain there at that time , and the captain had been there in the morning . my lord , surely it is a strange thing , and much to be wondered at , that the captain , who had the management of this murder , had no where to go for a refuge , but to his patron my lord coningsmarke , reeking hot with mr. thynne's blood , when the blow was given within an hour after the murder committed , ( for so the boy swears expresly , for the blow was given at a clock ) and afterwards he went to the doctors to bed about a clock at night , as the doctor hath confessed ; i take that for a mighty evidence . and then my lord , upon the monday morning when the boy comes in , the count asks him , what was the matter with the bustle in the street the last night ? will any man in england believe , but that he had had earlier news of it ? and for what reason should he ask the question , if mr. hanson speaks true , who brought the news in from whitehall ? but the great question that we wonder should be asked the boy , is , what mr. thynne was ? which certainly was a very odd expression , if we consider what mr. hanson says , that the count had mentioned him in his discourse , and my lady ogle too . one of the count's answers was , it could not be imagined that he could speak to a scullion boy ; but you see the boy swears it , and tells it so , as that it is very probable . [ we now come my lord to give an account of his flight . ] the father of the boy comes in the morning : and i would observe , though he pretended his business and his distemper brought him over , and that he was ill , and under cure yet this matter made the place too hot to hold him ; stay here he durst not , immediately he forgot his physicians prescriptions , and gave order to his man to send away his things . then the boy 's father was sent for , and the portmantles are given him , and he is told my lord was going to windsor ; but when he came to charing-cross , the things are put into a coach in the strand , and from thence they went for rotherith then came the man at whose house he lay , and he was a swede , and by the way i would observe the witnesses are most of them my lord 's own friends , unwilling to tell the truth till we get it , and that very hardly from them . this man was very unwilling to tell his knowledge , but he got him the cloaths , which cloaths , by the bulk of the man , one would think would hardly fit the count ; but the more he was disguised , the more was his security ; and when he was asked this question , why he desired to have those cloaths to secure him ? he said at last , it was to prevent trouble . now let us consider , my lord , whether the count has given any answer to that . my lord , there is nothing in what he said under pardon . he says , he went away , because he was afraid the people would tear him in pieces , before he could justifie himself . if he were innocent , he knew where to go to be secure from any hurt from the people ; he might have applied himself to your lordship , or to any other magistrate . he is so ingenious he could not but know he might have protected himself under the government , which protects and secures any man whatsoever if he be innocent . i have these two things more to mention and then i shall leave it to your lordship and the jury ; and one is the evidence of mr. gibbons , and mr. kid. mr. kid gives that , which to me is a very material evidence of what passed when they seized him : as they were coming up the river , the count asks him , whether there were any good lodgings in newgate ? and particularly exppressed his care of the captain , to ask whether he were well lodged . and when he was told that the polander had confessed , he says he seemed on the sudden to be very much concerned , bit his cloaths , and threw himself along with some agony . my lord , an innocent man needed not to use any such actions . then comes mr. gibbons , who was very instrumental in the pursuing of him , and is known to be an honest man , he gives this evidence , that when there was a discourse about mr. thynne , and his old master the duke of monmouth , the count presently replied , they meant to have done the duke of monmouth no harm ; and walking about the room , on a sudden , burst out into this expression , this is a stain upon my blood ; but one good action in the wars , or lodging upon a counterscarp , will wash it all away . now , my lord , as to what he answers to this , i say any man may make that evasion which he would excuse it by , to say that the accusation is a scandal or a stain , may be worse than the guilt of the action : but your lordship and the jury see plainly , if so be the thoughts of a man 's own heart be that he is guilty , it will break out some way or other . these things i only repeat , i leave them to the consideration of the jury . but when i have said this , there is one thing more , and that is above all relating to the captain : says mr. gibbons , i did not know that the captain had confessed , but i did venture to say he had ; but the count replied , he did not believe the captain had confessed . my lord , you see how the captain appears before you , and if the count will take upon him to say , he does not believe the capt. wo●●●●onfess ; it doth strongly argue he knew as much of the capt.'s mind , as he himself . then look upon the resolute behaviour of the capt. the familiarity he lived in with the count , that he had always been a dependent upon his family , it shews some reason for his assurance of secrecy from the capt. that he would not confess the author of this most notorious murder , and it lies heavy upon him . my lord , i look upon the discovery of this as a very miraculous thing ; and pray consider , gentlemen , where shall a man go to settle his thoughts for the original business ? do you ( or can you ) think it was begun , invented and contrived by yonder three men ? to what end or purpose ; or for what advantage to them ? you have heard the evidence that i have repeated to you ; you have heard what this lord has said for himself ; how he has fled , and what has been done . my lord , i will not use any thing of argument to perswade the jury ; but i cannot chuse but say , we know no where to go for the author of this villanous fact , nor whom to accuse as the prime contriver , but this count before you . i pray the god of heaven to direct you in your enquiry ; and if i have said any thing amiss , i beg your pardon for it . [ then a grèat shout was made , which the court rebuked the people for . ] mr williams . my lord , i did not think to have said any thing more in this case ; but i must crave your lordship and the juries patience for a few words . as for the three persons at the bar , ( the pole , the capt. and the lieutenant ) it is ( gentlemen ) very notorious they are guilty of this most hellish murder . but all the labour and difficulty of this matter is , how far this count is guilty , or not guilty . pray gentlemen do but observe the nature of this crime , and the manner of our evidence that has been given you . the crime he is accused of , is , for being accessary to a wilful murder ; accessary before the fact ; contriving of it , and laying the train , which these persons were made use of to fire . this being so , it is almost impossible to give you that clear light and pregnant proof against an accessary , as against the principals . the principal is he that doth the fact ; that is notorious and open . the accessary is the person that prepares the scheme , contrives the management , first sets the wheel on work , gives the necessary instructions , who lies behind the curtain . now , considering that , and the nature of the thing , it is impossible to give a clearer evidence than what you have had . pray gentlemen do but first consider who hath been the privadoes and the intimates of this count , with whom he has had conference since he came into england , hanson and dr. frederick , who are brought as witnesses ( though unwilling ones ) against him ; the boy that was imployed by him . he is in no other hands ; i cannot hear he was among any other persons but these , and capt. vratz , and the polander . these are his company , and those alone with whom he had conversation , now , gentlemen , that we should be able to produce these very men ( that were his only companions ) against him as witnesses , is a mighty thing , considering the privacy he lay in . as for vratz his most intimate privado , he came over with him into england , liv'd with him in his first lodging , and was continually with him during his stay . so then , what can we expect about this man , ( gentlemen ) when he had said his design with all the privacy he could , would have as little conversation with english-men as he could . it was very craftily laid , that he would converse with none but those that were privy to his design , or had an hand in it in a great measure . then pray consider how it was carried on , gentlemen ; vratz , who was the great commander , and the polander , who was the immediate actor in it , had been his own servants . vratz , i say , he had a great confidence in ; he came over with him ; and will not any man believe that this man , who eat of his bread , who lay in his family , was a likely man to do this for his sake that thus cherish'd him ? for whose sake pray can it be thought to be ? not for his own sake ; for the capt. tells you he never had any communication or conversation with this unhappy gent. mr. thynne . so that if it were as they would have it , that they did it out of respect to this count , who was the capt.'s friend , it will turn upon the same point , and confirm the suspicion . why should the polander do it , if he had no reason to do it upon his own aacount ? for he never saw the face of mr. thynne , but was brought hood-wink'd in a manner to the fact. therefore whether it were not done for his sake , is that which you are to consider ; and as a proof that for the count it was done , i shall pitch upon one circumstance that will bring it home to his door , and that is , the evidence of hanson his brother's tutor : and by the way i cannot but repeat it , that this thread goes through all the cloth , we have no witnesses but those of his own familiar acquaintance and dependance . now hanson has ( though very shufflingly ) told you , the count and he had some discourse about my lady ogle ; and though we cannot come to know all the circumstances , yet he does acknowledge so much as that there was mention made of requiring satisfaction of mr. thynne , or some account of him , and what might be the consequences of the laws of england , in reference to my lady ogle , in case he should call him to account . so far he is plain , though he will not tell what the discourse was ; that there was a discourse of my lady ogle , of mr. thynne , of asking satisfaction of mr. thynne , or calling him to account , and what the consequences in law might be . and pray , gentlemen , observe , being to take advice about this matter , they would not consult an english lawyer , though i see one behind him now , but a foreigner , the suedish agent ; not ask the opinion of one man of this kingdom . and then he gives you a mighty reason for it , that the swedish resident knew very well how to advise him in this affair , because he had lived in england about years : so that all his acquaintance and friends , the managers of the business , and those consulted with about it , all outlandish men ; i cannot say they are all guilty , but i will say this makes our proof more difficult . gentlemen , this being taken notice of as a mighty circumstance , i would bring it a little more home to this gentleman , whom we accuse as accessary before the fact. pray consider how all along he lay skulking , and hiding himself in disguise , and shifting his lodging from place to place . i need not repeat it , but i would desire you to think of what was concurrent with that very day , and , as it were , concomitant with the very murder , and that will appear to be sufficient to satisfie any rational man. we are not picking up an evidence upon flying words , or unconcluding circumstances , but we offer facts to you , and facts are to guide you , you being to compare facts with facts . as to his lurking and hiding , this gentleman gives you no manner of rational account , that he had any business with any man in england that should occasion his lying private ; but only he tells you , he labor'd under a distemper that he would not have discover'd ; and yet take him in that very distemper , and in the process of his cure , as soon as this fact is over , the next morning he values neither his disease , nor his physick , but goes by water , and made an attempt to flie abroad . will any understanding man believe that he came privately into england , that he lay sculking here , that he made use of another name , and other cloaths , that he should do all these things , and run away so immediately after the fact was done , and all onely because of a little distemper of spots on his breast . but then , says he , it was reported in the world , and told him the next morning , that the people , the rabble , would tear him in pieces . he was asked where he had this report , and he brought up a tailer , and depended mightily upon it , but the tailer denied it , and , gentlemen , he that fails in one thing he says , is not to be credited in another without good proof . he says that he said no such thing , so that gentlemen this fictitious argument of his fear falls to the ground . then observe what follows upon this villainous fact ; he flies away privately , he goes to a swedish house at rotherhith , from thence by a swede he must be put into a skuller , and that skuller must be towing of him for several days together , till he come to gravesend , from whence he was to have gone over sea. pray lay all this together , and weigh it well , and see if you can imagine any other reason for it all , than what we alledge . i would observe it to you gentlemen , and pray think of it , what the count has said to you in his own defence in so many languages without proof , must pass for nothing . the court has had a great deal of patience to hear him , and shewn him a great deal of favor in permitting it ; but without proof , i say , it all passeth for nothing . and what proof he hath made of it , i must submit to you ; for i will not spend your time in running into particulars : and where he has proved any thing , pray compare facts with facts , especially that concerning the captain vratz , which is not in my opinion to be answered , that he lived with him , that he should be with him on the sunday morning , that in the evening he should come thither again after the fact done , that he should be left in his chamber , and continue in the house so long . will any one believe , that when vratz came over with the count from abroad , lodged with him here , was every day with him in familiar conversation , should come that morning before , and in the evening immediately after , and stay with him so long , and yet the count be innocent ? nay , will not any man rather absolutely conclude him an accessary to the murder . then , gentlemen , take into your consideration his flight , and endeavors to escape out of the hands of justice ; if there were no more , that is a great evidence of his guilt , but you have much more , and as strong as you can desire or expect . he says he was afraid of the people ; alas he needed not to fear that , he finds a very fair and generous treatment here , he knew the temper of our english nation well enough , to know they do not presently flie in mens faces ; and he could not but know , he might , without danger , resign himself up to the law if he were innocent . gentlemen , we have given you a fair and a full evidence , we have offer'd you sufficient proof in fact , and have offer'd no shams to you ; and i do not doubt but you will do right to the honour of england , and the justice of the nation , which are deeply concerned in this case . [ then there was a great noise made . ] lord chief-justice . look you gentlemen , the council for the king have been very large in the repeating of the evidence , therefore you must not expect from me , that i should go over it again in the same method that they have done . i will direct you a little as to some points in law as to this case . here is as they tell you truly , a murder as horrid and barbarous as peradventure can be committed upon any subject . it is a murder of a very bad nature , so that the repeating of it is enough to make all men abhor it ; it needs no aggravation , it is in its own nature so very barbarous ; and those gentlemen that had a hand in it , must certainly needs be ashamed , and look upon themselves as not fit to be accounted men , whoever they be that had any hand in it , so barbarous and inhumane , and base in its own nature , and so unworthy of a man. i must tell you , gentlemen , when one man shoots another , and two are with him , though they do nothing but come on purpose to countenance that evil fact , that is murder in them all ; all that were present are guilty , when ever such an act is done : and three or four come together , and one does the fact , and the others stand by to countenance it , whether they be there to bring the party off , or to animate him , and put him into a condition that he may murder and kill , it is murder in all , and they are all as equally guilty , as he that shot , or actually gave the blow . now as to these three persons here the polander that shot , vratz who was with him and stop'd the coach , and stern that was by with them , they do all acknowledge themselves to be there at this murder ; the least they say for themselves , is , that they came to countenance a fighting with mr. thynne , that is the least any of them say ; for captain vratz makes this his excuse , that he intended to kill him ( as he calls it ) fairly , and the others were to stand by to let him make the best of it ; so that they all came with a murderous intent , and a murder followed . and i must declare this for law to you , that this is murder in them all , if you believe themselves ; so that i think there is little , very little for you to consider concerning these three men , but according to what they have acknowledged of themselves both before the council , and here likewise in your own presence , they seem all to be guilty of this murder . the more doubtful question is concerning count coningsmarke , that stands here before you , for he was not at the murder , nor is he charged as principal ; and the question will be as to him , whether he commanded , or gave any authority or direction to have this murder committed ; that is the thing that is now charged upon him , and without that he cannot be accessary in this case . now , gentlemen , you must consider as to that , several things are certain and positive ; that this polander was once his servant ; that he was brought over from beyond sea by his order ; that he was given by him to captain vratz ; that vratz was his great acquaintance , and lay in his lodging some time , though not at this very time . these things are plain : now what answer is given to this ? you hear , he says , the polander was taken for him , and hired as a servant beyond seas , knowing that he had skill in horses ; and the count having remitted money to buy horses , he was willing to have him manage the horses , and to have his judgment in them , and sent for him three months before for that purpose , and that he came for that purpose ; but knowing that the occasion for which he was to buy his horses was past over , there being like to be no war , and therefore there would be no occasion for horses , he was willing to part with the polander , as he says , is usual for persons of quality in his countrey to do upon such occasions , to give their servants to one another ; and so having cloathed him , first he gave him to captain vratz : and you hear how much of this is made good by witnesses , and how far this is satisfactory to you as an excuse and reason for this , i leave to you . there is more too that is very plain : it is apparent that the capt bid him come to his lodging after this murder was committed . according to the calculation of the time , it must be after the murder , for that was about eight a clock , and he was there about nine . you hear what answer the count gives to that ; that he came as formerly he had done , he knowing nothing of this , nor of mr. thynne 's murder , and that he did not speak to him concerning the next thing , gentlemen , is , 't is plain the count did lie private when he came to england ; and he tells you , he brings the doctour to witness it , his occasion of privacy was , because he had a sickness which he was loth should be known , having been formerly in splendour in england ; but now , without his equipage , he would not publickly appear ; and he was afraid , if he appeared in company , he should be inticed to drink high , and that would retard his cure. and the doctour tells you , he was under his hands for cure of his disease , which was some spots upon his body . it is plain too , that count coningsmark did go away the next morning after he had heard of the murther , he acknowledgeth it himself ; and that he did conceal himself upon the water , and was taken in such manner as the witnesses speak . but withall he tells you the occasion of this was , a stranger here , captain vratz , as he heard , was accused for the murther , and seised , and he did not know what this might occasion to him ; how the common people might fall upon a stranger that was of that man's acquaintance ; and it was through his fear of the people ( lest they should fall upon him before he could vindicate himself ) that he withdrew himself and concealed himself in this manner . as it was told you by the council it was an unreasonable fear in him , for there is no such disorderly proceeding ( we thank god ) in england ; but he tells you he was afraid of it ; and if he were , being a stranger , he might not know our constitution so well . but i must tell you another thing for law , gentlemen , which was urged by the council for the king. captain vratz doth say , that he , knowing of an affront that had been given to the count , and having received an affront himself , he did , without the count's knowledge , doe this murther , for revenge , upon mr. thynne . it has been said by the council , it will be all one whether it were with the knowledge of count coningsmark or not . now , i must tell you , gentlemen , the law is not so . for if a gentleman has an affront given him which he does seem to resent , if any of his servants officiously , without acquainting him with it , out of too much zeal and too forward a respect to their masters honour , will goe and pistol and kill him that they apprehend has affronted their master , he not knowing of it , it will not charge their master with any guilt at all . the law , gentlemen , is not so as was urged , for if it were without the counts knowledge and direction , if a zealous captain has gone and over-shot himself , out of respect to his master's honour , when really it was a dis-honour to himself and all that were acquainted with it , this cannot lie upon him , to make count coningsmark guilty . but it lies upon me to direct you ; for otherwise you might swallow it as a maxim , to be all one in law , which it is not . so that it will return to this , whether here he any proof that count coningsmark did consent to this murther , or any waies countenance the killing of master thynne , or command any of these persons to doe it . look you , gentlemen , there are some suspicious speeches that are mentioned here of the count 's . one is , that the boy should say that the count asked him whether men might ride in london on sundaies ? you hear what answer is given to that . the count denieth that he asked any such question : and to shew and prove that such a question could not likely be asked , he saies and proves , by divers persons , that it was an ordinary thing for himself to ride on sundaies in hide-park before this business long . it is also said , that when he was taken , he should say , that he did believe they intended the duke of monmouth no hurt : now that he said these words he doth not here deny ; but he saies he spoke it upon the common report that these men had watched the coach till they saw his grace out of it , and then they did doe this villany ; so that he apprehended they had no design to hurt the duke at ill . this is the answer he gives ; how satisfactory it is ; i leave it to you . then as to those other words ; that it would reflect upon his family and stain his bloud , but he presently recollected himself ; and said , one brave action in the wars or lodging upon a counterscharp would wash it off : you hear what he says to that : he looked upon it as an injury to his family , and it would be some stain to his bloud , that he should be accused of so base and unworthy an act ; but that accusation he thought might be washed off ; and so , though he were innocent , it might be looked upon as a stain , which a brave behaviour in the wars would wipe off . gentlemen , thus , as near as i can , i have given you an account of the most material things that are objected against him , and his answers to them . i must leave it to you , whether , upon the evidence which you have heard , you do believe that this murther was directed or countenanced by count coningsmark . if it were , he then is guilty as accessary before , and you must find it ; but if you believe he did not know it till after the murther was done , then he is innocent , and you must acquit him . and upon the whole , gentlemen , i must leave it to you . then , it being late , after an officer was sworn to keep the jury , the court adjourned for a while ; and in half an hour return'd ; and sent for the jury , who came in and , answering to their names , gave this verdict . cl. of cr. gentlemen , are you all agreed of your verdict ? omnes . yes . cl. of cr. who shall say for you ? omnes . foreman . cl. of cr. george borosky , alias borotri , hold up thy hand , ( which he did . ) look upon the prisoner ; how say you ? is he guilty of the felony and murther whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. what goods and chattels , lands and tenements ? foreman . none to our knowledge . cl. of cr. christopher vratz , hold up thy hand — . is he guilty , &c. foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. what goods , &c. foreman . none to our knowledge . cl. of cr. john stern , hold up thy hand — . is he guilty or , &c. foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. what goods , &c. foreman . none to our knowledge . cl. of cr. charles john conningsmarks hold up thy hand ( which he did ) how say you , is he guilty of the felony whereof he stands indicted as accessary before , or not guilty ? foreman . not guilty . count con. god bless the king and the honourable bench. cl. of cr. then hearken to your verdict as the court hath recorded it , you say that george borosky , &c. and so you say all . then the jury was dismissed , and the court ordered to take a recognizance from the court ; with three sureties , to appear the next sessions and to answer any-appeal if brought ; after which the judges went away , and the recorder , with the lord mayor and aldermen stay'd to pronounce sentence on the convicted malefactours . cl. of cr. keeper , set george borosky to the bar , hold up thy hand ( which he did ) thou standest convicted of murther for killing thomas thynne , esq what canst thou say for thy self why the court should not give judgment upon thee to die according to the law. interpreter . he says he prays god to have mercy upon him . cl. of cr. tye him up , set christopher vratz to the bar — interpreter . he says he heare he is condemned , but he was never rightly examined , nor fairly tried . cl. of cr. set john stern to the bar — interpreter . he says he did it for the captain 's sake , he went as a second along with him . then , the prisoners being tied all up by the executioner , proclamation was made for silence during the pronouncing of the sentence . mr. recorder . you the prisoners at the bar , george borosky , christopher vratz and john stern , you have been all indicted for the murther of a gentleman of great quality mr. thynne ; a great , an heinous and a crying crime , that cries aloud for vengeance : you have been brought to your trial and tried indifferently by a jury not consisting onely of the country-men of the party slain but compounded of foreiners and freeholders of the county too . these impartial men have found you guilty , and indeed the plainness of your guilt is such that you your selves have acknowledged your selves guilty . for when you were apprehended your guilt did so stare in your faces , and you could give so little an account how you had bestowed that time wherein he was murthered that you were forced to confess your interest in the fact. it is our duty to pronounce the sentence of the law against you upon this conviction ; but it is also our usage to open the nature of the crime for which the convicted person is to suffer death , for the conviction of the offenders themselves . now your crime is one of the deepest die , it is the wilfull shedding of innocent bloud , to which you could be led by nothing but what you are charged with in the indictment , the motion and seduction of the devil . this crime of murther is put into the highest and foremost rank . when god himself had given laws to the world under the old administration , after the command of honouring father and mother in the next place he forbids murther . this crime you have committed and that with the most aggravating circumstances that i have ever known attend any crime of this nature . it was committed upon a gentleman of great quality , that was so far from giving you any provocation to it , that you acknowledge your selves you never had any communication with him . it was done upon a day when you ought to have exercised and busied your selves in acts of piety and religious worship . it was done in the streets of the city near the king 's royal palace . but the greatest circumstance of all is the doing it in such a manner , that is it was done by way-laying ; a sort of killing the most unworthy , the most base and the most ungenerous of all other . for that it gives the party assaulted no liberty for any prevention or any defence by any prudence he can use ; and the consequence of it is , as much as lies in the malefactour , to destroy as well the soul as the body ; by such an insidious murther to take a man out of this life before he can have any opportunity to prepare for another life . therefore in our publick solemn prayers in our church it has very justly and worthily been made part of our liturgy to pray to be delivered from murther and sudden death . you that are strangers in this countrey if you had been tried and convicted of a breach of our municipal laws , the peculiar laws of this kingdom , much indulgence might be shewn to you because of your little acquaintance with the law. but that-is not your case , your offence is a transgression against the law of god , written in large characters in the nature of man. it is against the laws of all nations even your own country from whence you come , and any other country whereever you could go are severe in their laws against that by which you have broken the law in so foul a fact. the very barbarians could say , this man is a murtherer and divine vengeance will not suffer him to live ; so that they all think the divine justice concern'd to revenge it . you have slain this innocent gentleman which is but a single distemper as it concerns him , but if it should go unpunished it would turn to a pestilential contagion . if such assassinations and murthers of persons should not be severely punished it were a greater woe than ever was brought upon this kingdom . therefore it is thought fit by his majesty to make his justice signal and exemplary upon those that have thus basely and inhumanely brought themselves under the consure of it . that when the fame of this barbarous action shall go abroad his justice shall also be celebrated upon the actors , and that this kingdom is maintained by justice . i have but one thing more to say to you , and that is in tenderness to you your selves . you are to consider that you are to receive another judgment than that you will be condemned by here , and that you may be prepared for that is your great and your onely care . now it is repentance that is the onely antidote against the sting of death . you cannot be found innocent , your selves acknowledge your guilt , then let it be your care to be found penitent . for that purpose you shall have the assistance of some of our learned divines here , and you will doe well to hearken to their good counsels . i pray god you may submit to justice patiently , and that your contrition may be correspondent to your crime , that so you may obtain pardon and everlasting favour from god. it remains onely that we pass the sentence of law against you which is this , that you shall go from hence to the place from whence you came , from thence to the place of execution , where you shall be severally hanged by the neck untill you be dead : and the lord have mercy upon your souls . then the prisoners were carried away , and the court adjourned . finis . books lately printed for t. basset , at the george in fleetstreet . the most excellent hugo grotius in three books , treating of the rights of war and peace ; in the first is bandled , whether any war be just ; in the second is shewed , the causes of war both just and vnjust ; in the third is declared , what in war is lawfull , that is , vnpunishable . with the annotations digested into the body of every chapter . translated into english , by william evats , b. d. a discourse concerning the laws ecclesiastical and civil , made against hereticks by popes , emperours and kings , provincial and general councils , approved by the church of rome ; shewing , first what protestant subjects may expect to suffer under a popish prince acting according to those laws . secondly , that no oath or promise of such a prince can give them any just security that he will not execute these laws upon them . with a preface against persecuting and destroying hereticks . by a cordial friend to the protestant religion now by law established in these realms ; in o. price d. a short and easie french grammar fitted for all sorts of learners , according to the present use and modern orthography of the french , with some reflexions on the ancient use thereof ; in o. price s. d. a large vocabulary , english and french , for the use of such as learn french or english ; in o. price d. an hundred and fifteen dialogues , french and english , fitted for the use of learners ; besides four curious discourses of cosmography , in french , for proficient learners to turn into english ; in o. price s. these three last , by guy meige , author of the new french dictionary . an institution of general history ; or , the history of the world. by william howell , l. l. d. in two volumes , fol. the history of romish treasons . by henry foulis , b. d. fol. thirty five sermons . by robert sanderson , late lord bishop of lincoln . fol. lord cook 's magna charta . fol. — his pleas of the crown . fol. — jurisdiction of courts . fol. the proceedings and tryal in the case of the most reverend father in god, william, lord archbishop of canterbury and the right reverend fathers in god, william, lord bishop of st. asaph, francis, lord bishop of ely, john, lord bishop of chichester, thomas, lord bishop of bath and wells, thomas, lord bishop of peterborough, and jonathan, lord bishop of bristol, in the court of kings-bench at westminster in trinity-term in the fourth year of the reign of king james the second, annoque dom. . sancroft, william, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing s estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the proceedings and tryal in the case of the most reverend father in god, william, lord archbishop of canterbury and the right reverend fathers in god, william, lord bishop of st. asaph, francis, lord bishop of ely, john, lord bishop of chichester, thomas, lord bishop of bath and wells, thomas, lord bishop of peterborough, and jonathan, lord bishop of bristol, in the court of kings-bench at westminster in trinity-term in the fourth year of the reign of king james the second, annoque dom. . sancroft, william, - . lloyd, william, - . turner, francis, ?- . lake, john, - . ken, thomas, - . white, thomas, - . trelawny, jonathan, sir, - . england and wales. court of king's bench. [ ], p. : ports. printed for thomas basset ... and thomas fox ..., london : . "licensed and entred according to act of parliament" advertisement on p. . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng sancroft, william, - -- trials, litigation, etc. lloyd, william, - -- trials, litigation, etc. turner, francis, ?- -- trials, litigation, etc. lake, john, - -- trials, litigation, etc. ken, thomas, - -- trials, litigation, etc. white, thomas, - -- trials, litigation, etc. trelawny, jonathan, -- sir, - -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (seditious libel) -- england -- london. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the proceedings and tryal in the case of the most reverend father in god william lord archbishop of canterbury , and the right reverend fathers in god , william lord bishop of st. asaph , francis lord bishop of ely , iohn lord bishop of chichester , thomas lord bishop of bath and wells , thomas lord bishop of peterborough , and ionathan lord bishop of bristol . in the court of kings-bench at westminster , in trinity-term in the fourth year of the reign of king iames the second , annoque dom. . licensed and entred according to act of parliament . london , printed for thomas basset , at the george in fleet street , and thomas fox , at the angel in westminster-hall . . to his most illustrious highness william henry , prince of orange . may it please your highness , how deeply the design was laid , and with what violence carry'd on by those who lately steer'd the helm of this state , for the subversion of the establish'd religion and government of these three kingdoms , is already sufficiently well known to your highness . among the rest , one of their chiefest contrivances was , by a malicious , and illegal prosecution , to have extinguish'd the brigthest luminaries of the english church ; to the end , that the benighted people might the more easily , after that , have been misled into the pitfals of superstition and slavery . but as heaven began their disappointment , in eluding both at once there subtilty and malice , by the speedy deliverance of the seven renowned sufferers , from the jaws of their oppressors ; so the utter dissolution of their arbitrary command , and domineering power , under the conduct of the same providence , was fully compleated , great sir , by your deliberative prudence , and undaunted courage . to your illustrious highness , therefore the oblation of these sheets , containing an exact accompt of the prosecution , and tryal of those heroick prelates , is most justly due ; as being that , wherein your higness may , in part , discern the justice of the cause you have so generously undertaken ; and that it was not without reason , that the english nation so loudly implor'd your timely assistance . a clear convincement , that it was not ambition , nor the desire of spacious rule ; but a noble , and ardent zeal for the most sacred worship of god , which rows'd your courage , to rescue a distressed land , whose religion , laws , and liberties , were just ready to have been overwhelm'd with french tyranny , and romish idolatry . therefore , that the nation may long continue under the protection of your glorious administration , is the prayer of , great sir , your highnesses most humble , most faithful , and most obedient servants , tho. basset . tho. fox . december . . not long after the tryal of his grace the lord archbishop of canterbury , and the other six bishops ; and while the passages thereof were fresh in my memory , i perused that copy of this proceeding ; and tryal , which mr. ince , their lordships attorney , had caused to be taken for their use : and i have also lately read over the same again , as intended to be printed by mr. basset and mr. fox : and i do think it to be a very exact and true copy of the said proceeding and tryal , according to the best of my judgment , having been very careful in perusing thereof . ioh. powel . these peers were present , on the th . day of iune , . when the lords , the archbishop and bishops , were brought into court from the tower , upon the habeas corpus . viz. lord marquis of hallifax . lord marquis of worcester . earl of shrewsbury . earl of kent . earl of bedford . earl of dorset . earl of bullingbrook . earl of manchester . earl of burlington . earl of carlisle . earl of danby . earl of radnor . earl of nottingham . lord viscount fauconberge . lord grey of ruthyn . lord paget . lord chandoys . lord vaughan carbery . these peers were present on the day of the tryal , being the th . of iune , . and the feast of st. peter and st. paul. viz. lord marquis of hallifax . lord marquis of worcester . earl of shrewsbury . earl of kent . earl of bedford . earl of pembrook . earl of dorset . earl of bullingbrook . earl of manchester . earl of rivers . earl of stamford . earl of carnarvon . earl of chesterfield . earl of scarsdale . earl of clarendon . earl of danby . earl of sussex . earl of radnor . earl of nottingham . earl of abington . lord viscount fauconberge . lord newport . lord grey of ruthyn . lord paget . lord chandoys . lord vaughan carbery . lord lumley . lord carteret . lord ossulston . 't is possible more of the peers might be present both days , whose names , by reason of the croud , could not be taken . de termino sanctae trinitatis anno regni jacobi secundi regis , quarto , in banco regis . die veneris decimo quinto die junii , . dominus rex versus archiep. cantuar. & al. sir robert wright lord chief justice mr. justice holloway mr. justice powell mr. justice allybone judges . this being the first day of the term , his majesties attorney general , ( as soon as the court of kings bench was sat ) moved on the behalf of the king for a habeas corpus , returnable immediate , directed to the lieutenant of the tower , to bring up his grace the lord arch-bishop of canterbury , and the bishops of st. asaph , ely , chichester , bath and wells , peterborough , and bristol ; which was granted . and with great dispatch about eleven a clock the very same day the lieutenant returned his writ , and brought the said lord arch-bishop and bishops into court , where being set down in chairs set for that purpose , mr. attorney-general moved the court. viz. mr. att. gen. my lord , i pray that the writ and retorn may be read , by which my lords the bishops are brought hither . lo. ch. iust. read the retorn . clerk reads the retorn , which in english is as follows . viz. i sir edward hales baronet , lieutenant of the tower of london , named in the writ to this schedule annext , to our m●… serene lord the king do most humbly certifie , that before the coming of the said writ , to wit , the eighth day of june , in the fourth year of the reign of our lord james the second , king of england , &c. william lord arch-bishop of canterbury , william lord bishop of st. asaph , francis lord bishop of ely , john lord bishop of chichester , thomas lord bishop of bath and wells , thomas lord bishop of peterborough , and jonathan lord bishop of bristol , mentioned in the aforesaid writ , were committed and delivered to , and are retained in my custody ; by vertue of a certain warrant under the hands and seals of george lord jeffries , baron of wem , lord high chancellor of england , robert earl of sunderland , lord president of the privy council of our lord the king , henry lord arundel of warder , keeper of the pivy seal of our said lord the king ; william marquess of powis , john earl of mulgrave , lord great chamberlain of england ; theophilus earl of huntingtou , henry earl of peterborough , william earl of craven , alexander earl of moray , charles earl of middleton , john earl of melfort , roger earl of castlemain , richard viscount preston , george lord dartmouth , sidney lord godolphin , henry lord dover , sir john earnly , knight , chancellor of the exchequer of our said lord the king ; sir edward herbert , knight , chief iustice of the common bench of our lord the king , and sir nicholas butler , knight , lords of his majesties most honourable privy council , to me directed , the tenor of which warrant follows in these words ; viz. these are in his majesties name , and by his command to require you to take into your custody the persons of william lord arch-bishop of canterbury , william lord bishop of st. asaph , francis lord bishop of ely , iohn lord bishop of chichester , thomas lord bishop of bath and wells , thomas lord bishop of peterborough , and ionathan lord bishop of bristol , for contriving , making and publishing a seditious libel in writing against his majesty and his government , and them safely to keep in your custody until they shall be delivered by due course of law ; for which this shall be your sufficient warrant . at the council chamber in white-hall , this eighth day of iune , . and this is the cause of the taking and detaining , &c. lord ch. iust. well , what do you desire , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. we pray for the king , that the return may be filed . l. ch. iust. let it be filed . mr. att. gen. by this retorn your lordship observes , what it is my lords the bishops were committed to the tower for ; it is by warrant from the council board , where , when their lordships appeared , they were not pleased to give their recognizances to appear here , as they were required by the king to do ; and there upon they were committed to the tower , and now come before the court upon this retorn of the king 's writ of habeas corpus , and by the retorn it does appear , it was for contriving , writing , framing , and publishing a seditious libell against his majesty and the government ; my lord , it is our duty , who are the king's councel , pursuant to our orders , to prosecute such kind of offences , and when the proper time shall come for us to open the nature of the offence , your lordships will then judge , what reason there is for this prosecution ; but in the mean time , what we are now to offer to your lordship is , the officer of this court has an information against his grace the archbishop of canterbury , and the rest of my lords the bishops , which we desire may be read to them , and pray that they may plead to it , according to the course of the court. sir rob. sawyer . if it please your lordship , to spare us a word for my lords the bishops . mr. att. gen. my lord , we pray for the king the information may be read . sir rob. sawyer . we define to be heard a word first . mr. soll. gen. we oppose your speaking any thing , till the information hath been read . sir rob. sawyer . but what we have to offer is proper before it be read . mr. att. gen. your time is not yet come , sir robert. sir rob. sawyer . yes , this is our proper time , for what we have to say , and therefore we move it now , before there be any other proceedings in this matter . mr. soll. gen. it is irregular to move any thing yet , pray let the information be read first . mr. s. pemberton . if your lordship please to spare us , we will offer nothing but what is fit for us to do . sir rob. sawyer . and now is our proper time for it . mr. soll. gen. gentlemen , you do know the way of proceeding in such cases better than so , i am sure , as for you , sir robert sawyer , you have often oppos'd any such motion as irregular , and i hope the case is not alter'd , however you may be ; the course of the court is the same . sir rob. sawyer . with submission , if your lordship please to spare me a word , that which i would move , is , to discharge my lords the bishops upon this return , and from their commitment upon this warrant . mr. att. gen. surely these gentlemen think to have a liberty above all other people ; here is an information , which we pray my lords the bishops may hear read , and plead to . mr. soll. gen. certainly , sir rob. sawyer , you would not have done thus half a year ago . sir rob. sawyer . what would not i have done ? i move regularly ( with submission ) to discharge my lords the bishops from their commitment ; if they are not here legally imprisoned , now they are before your lordships upon this writ , then you will give us leave to move for their discharge , before any thing else be said to them ; and that is it we have to say , to demand the judgment of the court upon this return , whether we are legally imprisoned ? mr. att. gen. under favour , my lord , neither the court , nor they , are ripe for any motion of this nature yet . mr. s. pemberton . if we do not move it now , it will afterwards ( i fear ) be too late . mr. soll. gen. these gentlemen are very forward , but certainly they mistake their time ; this is a habeas corpus that 's brought by the king , and not by the prisoners ; and therefore they are too soon , till they see what the king has to say to them . mr. att. gen. your lordship cannot as yet be moved for your judgment about the legality of this commitment , because this writ was granted upon our motion , who are of councel for the king , and upon this writ they are brought here : and what is it we desire for the king ? certainly nothing but what is regular ; we have here an information for the king against my lords , and we desire they may plead to it . mr. s. pemberton . good my lord , will you please to hear us a little to this matter . l. c. iust. brother pemberton , we will not refuse to hear you by no means , when you speak in your proper time , but it is not so now ; for the king is pleased , by his attorney and sollicitor , to charge these noble persons , my lords the bishops , with an information , and the kings councel call to have that information read , but you will not permit it to be read . mr. s. pemberton . pray my lord spare us a word : if we are not here as prisoners regularly before your lordship , and are not brought in by the due pro●… of the court , then certainly the kings councel , or the court have no power to charge us with an information ; therefore we beg that you will hear us to that , in the first place , whether we are legally here before you ? mr. soll. gen. these gentlemen will have their proper time for such a motion hereafter . mr. pollexfen . no , mr. soll. this is , without all question , our only time for it , we shall have no time afterwards . mr. att. gen. yes , you will , for what do we who are of councel for the king now ask of the court , but that this information may be read ? when that is done , if we move to have my lords the bishops plead , then they may move what they will ; but before we make that motion , they cannot break in upon us with their motion : and with submission to your lordship , whether my lords the bishops were duely committed , is not yet a question . mr. finch . but it is , and this the fittest time for it . mr. soll. gen. pray will you hear us quietly what we have to say , and then answer us with reason , if you can ; i think we are in a proper way , but they are not my lord ; for ( as i said , ) my lords the bishops are brought by the kings writ upon our motion for the king , not upon theirs , and now we have them here before the court , we for the king would charge them with an information ; which information , that they and the court may know what it is they are charged with , we pray it may be read to them by the clerk ; and when it is read , let these gentlemen say what they will for them , they shall have their time to speak ; but certainly they ought not to obstruct the kings proceedings , nor oppose the reading of the information to these noble lords , who are brought here in custody into court , to this very purpose , that they may be charged with this information . mr. s. pemberton . but we have somewhat to say , before you can come to that , mr. sollicitor . mr. soll. gen. you ought not to be heard as yet . m. s. pemberton . under favour we ought to be heard . sir rob. sawyer . my lord , mr. sollicitor has opposed our being heard , but we now desire he would hear our answer to it , and that which we have to say , is this , that my lords the bishops are not here regularly in the court to be charged with an information ; and if the law be not with us in this point , as we doubt not to make appear it is , no question but when your lordship has heard what we have to say , you will give a right rule in it : my lord , we say , that by the rules of law , no man ought to be charged with an information or indictment , by the express statute of edward the third , unless he come into court by legal process ; that is a standing rule , and the practice of this and all other courts is pursuant to it ; now in this court you have several processes that go out of this court , and he that comes as taken by vertue of a capias , or an attachment after a summons , or by venire in the nature of a subpoena ; i say , he that comes in upon these processes , may be charged with an information ; but where a person is in prison , committed by another jurisdiction , and another authority , then that of this court ; when the ●…risoner is brought here by habeas corpus , the first thing the court has to do , is to enquire whether he be legally committed ; to that end the return is filed , and the party has leave to make his exceptions to it , as we do in this case . my lords are brought here upon a habeas corpus , the return of which has been read , and now the return is filed , we are proper to move , that my lords may be discharged ; for you now see what they are committed for ; it is for a misdemeanour in making and publishing a libel , that 's the matter for which they are committed ; and it appears by the return likewise , that they who are thus committed are peers of the realm , for so my lords the bishops all are , and for a misdemeanour they ought not by law to have been committed . l. c. i. you go too far now , sir robert sanyer , i would willingly hear you whatsoever you have to say ; but then it must be in its due time . mr. att. gen. this very discourse ( indeed i have heard ) has pass'd up and down the town for law ; we may see now whence they had it . mr. sol. gen. i know it has heretofore been urged by me , but denyed by them who now urge it , and i am glad that they now learn of me to tack about . l. c. i. look you gentlemen , do not fall upon one another , but keep to the matter before you . mr. s. pemberton . so we would , my lord , if the kings councel would let us ; first , we say , we being brought here upon a return of a habeas corpus , there was neither at the time of the commitment cause to imprison us , nor was there by the warrant any cause to detain us in prison ; and for that , besides what has been hinted at , we say further , that here it is returned , that we were committed by such and such persons , lords of the privy council ; but the return doth not say , that it was done by them , as lords of the privy council , which must be in council ; for if it be not in council , they have not power to make such a warrant for the commitment of any person , and that we stand upon ; here is a return that is not a good return of a legal commitment , and therefore we pray my lords may be discharged . mr. pollexfen . pray , my lord , spare me a word , that is the thing we humbly offer to your lordships consideration ; and under favour , i think we are proper both as to the matter , and as to the time ; the return is now filed before you : if by this return there appears to have been such a cause to commit these lords to prison , as is legal , then we acknowledge they may in a legal course be brought to answer for their offence ; but , with submission , it appears not by any thing that is in this return , that my lords the bishops were committed by the order of the privy council . all that is said , is , that they were committed by my lord chancellor , and those other persons , named lords of the privy council ; which we conceive is not a good return , for they can do nothing as lords of the privy council , except only as they are in council , and by order made in council , except that do appear , they have no power to commit ; then take the case to be so ; here is a man committed by one that has no authority to commit him , and he is brought by habeas corpus into this court , what shall the court do with him ? shall they charge him with an information ? no , it does appear that he was never in custody , but under a commitment , by those who had no legal power to commit him ; and therefore he must be discharged ; and that we pray for my lords the bishops . what the kings councel may have to say to them afterwards , by way of information or otherwise , they must take the regular methods of the law to bring my lords the bishops to answer ; but as the case stands here before you , upon this return , it does appear , they had no authority to commit them , by whose warrant they were committed ; and therefore this court has nothing to do but to discharge them . mr. finch . i beg your lordships leave to say one word farther on the same side , i think with humble submission , this is the most proper time for us to make this motion , for here is a habeas corpus returned , this return is filed , and then the kings councel move to charge my lords the bishops with an information , that motion of theirs ( we say ) is too soon , unless my lords are here in court , i mean legally in court ; for no man is in court so as to be liable to be charged with an indictment , or information , that is not brought into court by legal process , or as a prisoner upon a legal commitment ; then , my lord , with humble submission , we say , that it doth appear by this return , that my lords the bishops are not here legally in court , because this commitment of theirs was not a legal commitment ; and two objections we have to it , the one is , that the persons committing had no authority to commit , for the return says , that it was by vertue of a warrant under the hands of such and such , being lords of the council , and they ( we say ) have no authority to do this ; the other objection is , that the fact for which they were committed , they ought not to have been imprisoned for : the fact charged upon them is in the nature of it a bare misdemeanour , and for such a fact it is the right of my lords the bishops ( as peers of the realm ) that they ought to be served with the usual process of subpoena , and not to be committed to prison . these are the two objections that we have to this return , and this is ( under favour ) the proper time for us to make this objection , before the kings councel can charge my lords the bishops with an information . l. ch. iust. what say you to it , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. with submission , my lord , these gentlemen have out of course and preposterously let themselves in to this discourse , and when all is done , we must recurr to that which we moved to your lordship before , to desire that your lordship would order the information to be read , and when we call my lords to plead to the information , then will be their proper time to make this objection ; for 't is a strange thing certainly for men to make objections before they know what it is that they are charged with ; they say , the ground of their motion is , because my lords the bishops are here in court upon the return of an habeas corpus , and therefore they come in upon a commitment ( as they say ) for that which they ought not to be committed for at all , and we cannot charge them unless they be properly in court. now for that it is true , if that commitment of theirs were the only thing that was here before the court , then the court would , if that commitment were illegal , discharge them of that ; but when a man is present here in court , brought into court , let him come how he will , he is not to have any longer time then that instant to appear to , and be charged with the information ; 't is true , upon a subpoena , which is in the nature of a summons , there a man hath ( as it were ) an essoyn , and may make his excuse , and he shall have time ; but when he is present in court , either as a person priviledged , as an officer , or as a prisoner , he shall be charged presently ; and these gentlemen are not to let themselves into invectives against the commitment , thereby to keep off their being charged with the information . besides that , it is strange these gentlemen should know the priviledge of my lords the bishops as peers , better then all the lords of the council , who are most of them themselves peers , and they that make the objection should have considered , whether these lords that made the commitment , did not think themselves concerned in all the priviledges of peerage , as well as these seven noble lords ? sir rob. sawyer . is that an answer to our objection , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. i say , it is a strange objection , and i answer , 't is out of due time ; for this we say , that my lords the bishops being now here in court as prisoners upon a commitment , and we desiring to charge them with an information , you are not to examine the matter of their commitment , and therefore i do insist upon it , that the information should be read , and then you will consider , whether they are not bound to plead to it . mr. finch . my lord , i hope mr. attorney general will not think legal objections to be invectives . mr. att. gen. truly i know not what you call legal objections , i do not think yours are so , nor do i think legal objections are invectives , but i used that expression , as very proper for what you urged against the commitment . l. c. i. nay , gentlemen , don't quarrel about words . mr. finch . my lord , we would not willingly have words given us to quarrel at . mr. soll. gen. my lord , the question is , whether we are in the right method of practice , as to the course of the court , or they ? it may be these gentlemen think to make us angry , and take advantage of our being in a passion . mr. finch . mr. sollicitor , we desire to have our objections answered . mr. soll. gen. nay , if you begin to be angry , gentlemen , we can be angry too . l. c. i. i would have neither of you be angry . mr. soll. gen. it seems they would have an answer to their objections , but will not suffer us to give it ; they would first examine whether my lords the bishops have been duly committed , that ( we say ) is not to be done by the court as yet ; your lordship sees they are actually in custody , by a commitment of the lords of the council , that appears by the return before your lordship , and for what they were committed , what do we now pray for the king ? first , we move for a habeas corpus , then that this information may be read , and all is in order to bring this fact , ( for which they were committed ) to a trial ; 't is said upon the return , they were sent to the tower , for contriving , writing , and publishing a seditious libel against the kings person and government , which ( i think ) is crime enough for a man to deserve to be committed for ; they would have you to discharge these lords from this commitment , ( the return , as they say , being not legal ) before the information be read : but we think their motion is irregular , for here is a crime charged in the commitment , and upon that commitment they are here now as criminals before your lordship ; and mr. attorney has exhibited an information for the king , which is in the nature of a declaration at the kings suit ; and that in this court , which is the supreme court now in being for the trial of matters of this nature . we will come to that question , whether they were legally committed , when there is a proper time for it ; but now we find my lords the bishops in court , upon a commitment for a great crime ; i repeat it again , it is for contriving , writing , and publishing a seditious libel against the kings person , and against the kings government ; and whether the kings counsel shall not have leave to make out this charge by an information , sure can be no question at all in this court ; i hear them mention the statute of edward the third . but that is not at all to the purpose , that is but what was offered in another case that may be remembred , and offered by way of plea , and pressed with a great deal of earnestness , but rejected by the court ; and now what could not be receiv'd then by way of plea , these gentlemen would by their importunity , have you receive by way of parole at the bar ; i suppose the design is to entertain this great auditory with an hara●…gue , and think to perswade the weak men of the world , ( for the wise are not to be imposed upon ) that they are in the right , and we in the wrong ; under favour my lord , we are in the right for the king , we desire this information may be read , and let them plead what by law they can to it , according to the course of the court ; but that which they now urge , is untimely , and out of course . sir rob. sawyer . my lord , we offer this to your lordship — mr. att. gen. why gentlemen , you have been heard before your time already . mr. s. pemberton . pray , my lord , give us leave to answer what the kings counsel have objected . l. c. i. the kings counsel have answered your objections , and we must not permit vying and re-vying upon one another ; if you have no more to say , but only as to the matters that have been urged , you have been heard to it on both sides already . mr. s. pemberton . i would , if you please , answer what has been objected by the kings counsel , and state the case aright . mr. iust. allybone . brother pemberton , i do not apprehend that the objection you make against this commitment has any weight in it . the objection ( as i take it ) is this , that these lords were not legally committed , because they were committed ( says the return ) by such and such lords of the council particularly named , and it does not specifie them to be united in the privy council ; now truly , with me that seems to have no weight at all ; and i will tell you why . if my lord chief iustice do commit any person , and set his name to the warrant , he does not use to add to his name , lord chief iustice , but he is known to be so , without that addition ; and would you have a different return from the lieutenant of the tower to a habeas corpus , than the warrant it self will justifie ; the lords do not use to write themselves . privy counsellors , they are known to be so ; as well as a judge , who only writes his name , and does not use to make the addition of his office. sir rob. sawyer . pray , my lord , give me leave to be heard to this , i think truly it is a weighty objection , for , under favour , we say , it must upon the return here appear , that they were legally committed , before you can charge them with an information ; i do not take exceptions to the warrant , because it is subscribed by such lords , and they do not write themselves lords of the council , they need not do that ; and the return has averred that they are so ; but the return ought to have been , that it was by order of the privy council , and so it must be , if they would shew my lords to be legally committed , that they were committed by order of the privy council , and not by such and such particular persons , lords of the privy council ; so in the case put by mr. iustice allybone , of a commitment by your lordship , or any of the judges ; it must be returned to be by such a warrant , by such a one chief iustice , for that shews the authority of the person committing , and then your lordships name to it indeed is enough , without the addition ; but if it does not appear by the return that there was sufficient authority in the person to commit , your lordship cannot take it to be a legal commitment ; but now in this case , they could have no authority to commit but in council ; and this return seems to make it done by them as particular persons , and that 's not a good return ( with your lordships favour ) upon which these reverend and noble lords can be detained in prison ; but what do they on the other side say to this ? why , we shall be heard to it anon : but , my lord , they very well know , it would be too late for that effect which we desire of our motion , and therefore we lay the objections before you now in its proper time ( say we ) you ought not to read any information against us , because we are not legally here before the court ; and sure , that which was said by the kings councel , that your lordship may charge any one that you find here in court , which way soever he comes in , cannot be legal . mr. att. gen. who ever said so ? sir robert sawyer . i apprehended you said so , mr. attorney , or else you said nothing . mr. att. gen. sir robert sawyer , you of that side have a way of letting your selves in , to say the same things over and over again , and of making us to say what you please . sir rob. sawyer . truly i did apprehend you laid down that for doctrine , which i thought a very strange one ; for we say , with your lordships favour , he that is in court without a legal process , is not in court so as to be charged with an information . s. pemberton . my lord , it is not the body being found here that intitles the court to proceed upon it , but the person accused is to be brought in by legal process : then if we be not here by legal process , the information cannot be charged upon us ; and if we suffer it to be read , it will be too late for us to make this objection . l. c. i. that you have all said over and over , and they have given it an answer . mr. att. gen. pray , mr. serjeant , will you make an end ; you have repeated your objection over and over , i know not how often , and will never be contented with our answer . mr. i. allyb. sir rob. sawyer , that which you said in answer to the case i put , methinks does not answer it : for if the return be as good , that it was by a warrant from such an one , lord chief iustice ; as if my lord chief iustice had added the title of his office to his own name , when he subscribed the warrant : then this return , that this was done by such and such lords of the council , must be as good , as if they had added that to their own names . sir rob. sawyer . that is not our objection . mr. att. gen. your objection has been heard , and answered ; we pray the information may be read . mr. serj. pemberton . no , we are not come to that yet . mr. i. allyb. pray , would you have an averment by the lieutenant of the tower , in his return to an habeas corpus , that it was done by them in the council-chamber . mr. finch . my lord , the difference is this , with submission ; a commitment by sir rob. wright , ch justice , is a good commitment , and a return of that nature , were a good return , because he is chief justice all over england , and hath authority to commit wherever he is ; but a commitment by such an one , or such and such lords of the privy-council , cannot be a good return of a commitment ; because , though they be lords of the council , yet neither single , or apart , nor all together , have authority to do such an act , unless they be assembled in the privy-council ; there their authority is circumscribed ; so that that must needs be a great difference between a commitment made by a judge , who is always so , and a commitment by a lord , or so many lords , by the name of lords of the privy-council , who carry not their authority about with them , but are limited to their assembly in council . mr. i. allyb. mr. finch , indeed your objection is worth something , if my lord chief justice could not act but as under the character of chief justice ; for you are now arguing , that these lords could not do this act ; but as lords of the council , in council ; the same ( say i ) may be said of a commitment by the lord chief justice ; he cannot do it but under the formality of his authority , as he is chief justice , unless you will make it impossible for him to do any thing , but as chief justice , or unless you make it impossible to separate his person from his authority mr. finch . but , sir , the difference lies here ; the authority of the one is general and universal , and goeth with him wherever he goes ; the other's authority is limited to a particular sphere mr i. allyb. why , would you have it averred , that they did it being assembled in council ? mr. finch . under favour , they cannot justifie any thing that was done by them as lords of the council , but in the privy-council . mr. i. powel . truly , my lord , for my part , i think there is no such great necessity of haste in this matter ; here are exceptions taken to this return ; and the matter transacted now before us , appears to me to be of very great weight , peradventure a greater , or a weightier , has not been agitated in this place in any age ; it concerns these noble and reverend lords , in point of liberty : it comes suddenly upon us , and therefore , my lord , i think it very fit we should consider a little of this matter , and consult the precedents of returns , how they are ; for there are multitudes of returns of writs of habeas corpus in this court ; therefore it were requisite , that we did consult the forms of other returns , and how the precedents , as to this matter , have always been : if they are according as this is , then all is well ; but if they be otherwise , it is fit we should keep to the usual forms . l. c. i. what 's your opinion of it , brother allybone ? mr. i. allyb. i am still of the same mind i was , my lord , that he could make no return , but this return he has made ; and if his warrant was insufficient upon this account , that these particular persons , lords of the privy-council , did this act without saying , that they did it in privy-council , then 't is not his return that could mend it ; and truly i do not know that there does need any precedent for this ; for every one knows where the lords of the council are ; and 't is a sufficient averment , this , that is in the return . mr. pollexfen . they are lords of the council every where , but they do not act as lords of the council any where but in council . mr. i. allyb. so my lord chief justice is chief justice every where . mr. finch . and he can do judicial acts , as such , every where ; but the lords of the council cannot act but in the council . mr. i. allyb. nor is it to be presumed that they did do it . mr. finch . it is not a presumption that is to make any thing in this case , but the question is , whether here be a legal return of a legal commitment ? mr. i. allyb. such publick persons , in such publick acts , can never be presumed to act in their separate private capacities . mr. finch . but , with submission , your lordships can judge only what is before you in this return , whether it be a good return , and whether here be a good authority asserted in the persons that did commit my lords the bishops . l. c. i. truly , as to this objection and exception that has been made by them , i have considered of it , and what has been said on all sides , and i think 't is the usual way of commitment ; i never saw any other ; all the warrants that ever i saw , are of this form ; if there were any precedents , they should be shewn of that side . sir robert sawyer . there are multitudes of precedents otherwise , and none of this form. l. i. c. i confess , 't is a case of great weight , and the persons concerned are of great honour and value ; and i would be as willing as any body to testifie my respects and regards to my lords the bishops , if i could see any thing in it worth considering of . mr. sol. gen. there 's no colour for it , if they do but look upon the statute of the th and th of the late king , which arraigns the proceedings of his privy-council ; that tells you what things belong to the cognizance of the privy-council , and what not ; and there you have all the distinctions about commitments by the king and council , and by the lords of the council . and that act will shew , that this is a commitment according to the usual form : they know very well what the common style of the orders and commitments of council is , as in other places , and other commitments ; by such an one , chief iustice , that is the style that is very well known for such warrants : so a commitment by such and such , naming them particularly , lords of the council , that 's an order made by the lords in council ; and that statute distinguishes between commitments of one sort and the other ; and it does it , because sometimes warrants run in one form , and sometimes in another ; but they all come within the direction of that statute . my lord , we are in a plain case , my lords the bishops come regularly before you , upon a commitment by the council ; and therefore we pray they may be charged with this information . sir robert sawyer . pray , will your lordship give us leave to have that statute lookt into , which mr. sollicitor speaks of ; and then we shall see whether it be to his purpose . l. c. i. let the statute be read . mr. sol. gen. if it be keeble's book , it is the th of charles the first ; if it be the old book , it is the th and th of car , towards the end . clerk reads . provided always , and be it enacted , that this act , and the several clauses therein contained , shall be taken and expounded , to extend onely to the court of star-chamber ; and to the said court holden before the president and council in the marches of wales , and before the president and council in the northern parts . mr. soll. gen. it is the paragraph before that . clerk reads . and be it also provided and enacted , that if any person shall hereafter be committed , restrained of his liberty , or suffer imprisonment , by the order and decree of any such court of star-chamber , or other court aforesaid , now , or at any time hereafter , having , or pretending to have the same , or like iurisdiction , power , or authority to commit , or imprison , as aforesaid ; or by the command or warrant of the king's majesty , his heirs or successors , in their own persons , or by the command or warrant of the council-board , or of any of the lords , or others of his majesties privy-council , that in every such case , every person so committed , restrained of his liberty , or suffering imprisonment , upon demand — mr. soll. gen. that is all : your lordship sees these several disti●…ctions of the style of commitment . mr. att. gen. now , pray favour us a little : my lord , i think these gentlemen will not deny , but that the lords of the council can commit ; i must confess , they ask that which was pretty reasonable , if the case was as they would make it ; they would have my lords the bishops discharged , because there is not a return of a good commitment , and that stands upon this presumption , that what is here said to be done by all these lords , at the end of whose names this is added , lords of the privy-council , was done by them out of council , which , i suppose , your lordship will not presume , but will take it , that they did this as lords of the council in council ; and no man can say , but the lords in council can commit . mr. soll. gen. you may as well presume upon a warrant made by my lord chief iustice , because it is not said where he did it , and therefore he did it in scotland . mr. att. gen. i say again , unless your lordship will presume , that which is not to be presumed , this must needs be a very good return . mr. i. allyb. truly ( as mr. sollicitor says ) you may as well desire us to presume , that my lord chief iustice would commit a man in ireland or scotland ; i can see no imaginable difference . mr. finch . my lord , that which we pray , is , not that your lordship would presume , but that you would not presume , but take the return as 't is before you ; and then see whether it can be thought to be a commitment by the lords in council ? mr. s. pemberton . pray , my lord , spare us a little in this matter : here has been the clause of a statute read to you , from whence mr. sollicitor would conclude , that all commitments by several sorts of persons there named , are legal ; or else the enumeration of the several sorts of commitments , signifies nothing to this purpose . but i pray your lordship would consider this , that the very scope and end of that act of parliament is , to relieve against illegal commitments and oppressions ; then the several commitments therein named , can never all be called legal ; so that that signifies nothing to our purpose ; my lord , they tell us we stand upon presumption , no , we do not so ; we say your lordship ought not to presume the one or the other , but to judge upon what is before you , but here is nothing before you but this return of a commitment of these noble persons , my lord the arch-bishop of canterbury , and the rest of the bishops , which is said to be by these particular lords . now if your lordship will please to give us time to look into it , ( for this is an exception we take at the bar upon hearing the return read ) we would shew the constant way has been quite otherwise than this return makes it ; therefore we desire leave to satisfie your lordship concerning the usual form of precedents , and thereby it will appear , that it ought to have been , that they were committed by order of the privy council , and then he should have set forth the warrant it self , which would have shewn the names of the privy councellors , and he needed not to have put their names in the return as the particular persons that committed them ; but now , my lord , this does not appear to be an order made in council , as it ought to be , and the return is that which is before you , and you are to judge only upon what is before you . l. c. iust. so we do . mr. iustice allybone . pray , sir robert sawyer , would the saying of a governour of the tower in his return to a writ of habeas corpus alter the nature of the commitment ? mr. att. gen. my lord , we are in your lordships judgment . mr. iust. allybone . i say , brother pemberton , would any collateral saying of the lieutenant of the tower alter the nature of the thing , his return in this case is onely an inducement to the warrant of commitment , and his saying one way or t'other would neither vitiate nor mend the commitment . mr soll. gen. your lordship cannot take notice of the commitment but from the warrant . mr. pollexfen . the return is the fact upon which you are to judge . mr. iust. powel . certainly we must judge of the record , and nothing else , and the return is the record now , being filed . l. ch. iust. the return is as certain , i think , as can be . mr. soll. gen. by the return it appears , the bishops were committed by the warrant of such and such lords of the council , and that which is before you now is , whether you will not intend it to be done by them in council . mr. iust. powel . we can intend nothing , but must take the return as ' t is . lord chief iust. the warrant is good enough , i think truly , and so is the return . mr. pollexfen . i think in all the habeas corpus's that have been since the king's return , of persons committed by the council , the returns have been quite otherwise than this return is ; we do all pretty well agree ( for ought i can perceive ) in these two things ; we do not deny but the council board has power to commit , they on the other side do not affirm , that the lords of the council can commit out of council . mr. att. gen. yes , they may , as justices of the peace . mr. pollexfen . that is not pretended to be so here . l. ch. iust. no , no , that is not the case . mr. pollexfen . then , my lord , with submission , i will compare it to any thing else of this nature . i deny not but that the council may commit , but the question is , whether this return of their commitment be right ; suppose there should be a return to a habeas corpus , that such a one was committed by sir robert wright , and three others by name , justices of this court , for a contempt , without saying , that it was done in court , this would be an ill return ; although they had power in court to commit for a contempt , yet it must appear , that it was done in court , or it cannot be a good return : if i had thought or foreseen that such a return would have been made , i could easily have made out our objection ; but we could not foretell what they would return , and therefore we can only make this objection now upon the hearing of it read . in all the debates that have been heretofore in the great case of the habeas corpus concerning my lord hollis , and those other gentlemen who were in prison upon commitments by the privy council , the returns are , that they were committed by order of the privy council , as near as i can remember ; i will not take it upon me to be positive in it , but i believe , if your lordships thought fit to give us a short time to look into it , we should be plainly able to shew you , that all the returns of commitments of this nature , are said to be by order of the council-board , and never any of them naming the lords , for that may be true , and yet not a legal commitment . lord ch. iustice. i have seen several precedents of commitments in this form , and if you make no exception to the warrant , you can make no exception to the return , because that only sets forth the warrant . mr. pollexfen . the commitment you are to judge of , is upon the return , with submission , and supposing the warrant to be right and good , yet the return is not legal . mr. attorn . gen. we say , in common understanding , it cannot be but a commitment in council . mr. s. pemberton . but common understanding and legal understanding are two things , and we pray the judgment of the court. mr. soll. gen. and so do we , my lord , and pray your rule in it . mr. iustice allybone . you may by the same reason say , that upon all commitments by warrant from justices of the peace , that the commitment was out of the county , if the party does not alledge in the warrant or return , that the commitment was in the county . 't is an objection that would put us upon presuming , what we have no reason to presume . l. ch. iustice. if you would have our opinions , let my brothers declare theirs , i will soon tell you my mind . mr. iustice holloway . pray let the return be read again . ( which was done . ) mr. attorn . gen. so that the return says , they were committed by vertue of a warrant of such and such by name , lords of the council , and whether this be a warrant of the council , is the question , and we think it is plain enough , that 't is a good return . mr. iustice powell i have given you my thoughts already , i think we ought to consult precedents in a case of this weight and nature ; and truly i will not take upon me to say , whether it be a good return or not a good return , without looking into precedents . mr. iust. allybone . for my own part , it does not stick at all with me , for the reasons i gave before ; when any man that has an authority to commit , does commit a person to an inferiour officer , and that officer has an habeas corpus brought to him , it is enough for him to return his warrant , by which the party was committed , and whatsoever he sayes by the bye , cannot have any influence one way or other , to alter the nature of the thing ; now unless you would make every man that is a justice of the peace write his name and stile himself justice of the peace , this must be a good commitment . every commitment shall be presumed to be pursuant to the power of the person committing , and i am sure , take these lords separately , and they had no power to commit , and consequently such a warrant would be no authority to the lieutenant of the tower to receive them ; but when they send such a warrant as this , we shall presume it to be according to the power they have , and not according to the power they have not ; this warrant is returned by the officer , and i cannot but presume that it is all very well . mr. iustice holloway . my lords , i am very desirous and willing your lordships should have all the right and justice done you that can be , and by the grace of god , i will endeavour it all i can : i see in this case it is agreed on both sides , that the council have a power to commit , and the commitment is here certified in the words of the warrant ▪ and the lieutenant has made his return , that they were committed by vertue of this warrant ; if the lieutenant of the tower had returned any other commitment , you would have blamed him for a false return ; but now you find fault with his return , because he does not say , the warrant was made by the lords of the council , and in council ; that is a thing so notoriously known to all the kingdom , that my lords were sent to the tower by the council , that no body doubts it ; and being thus sent by this warrant , i do not see but that this is a very good return , and my judgment is , that the information ought to be read . lord ch. iust. i told you in the beginning after you had made your objections , that i thought it was as all other returns are , and i am of the same opinion still , i find no fault with the warrant , nor with the return . mr. serj. pemberton . there is no objection to the warrant at present upon this question . l. ch. iust. neither do i take upon me to say any thing , nor is there any thing now to be spoken of touching the fact for which these noble lords were committed . mr. att. gen. we pray , my lord , the information may be read . mr. iust. holloway . there is no question about the fact , but whether this be a good return which is here made , that they were committed by such and such lords of the council . l. ch. iust. i would do as much to give my lords the bishops case , and set them at liberty , as i could possibly by law , but we must not break the rules of law for any one . mr. soll. gen. pray read the information . mr. finch . no , my lord , we oppose the reading of it . mr. sollicitor gen. why will not you be satisfied with the opinion of the court ? mr. finch . we have another thing to offer , which we must have the opinion of the court in , before this information can be read. mr. att. gen. pray let us hear it what it is ? mr. finch . my lord , we did humbly offer one objection more to your lordship against the reading of the information , the former objection was concerning the persons committing , in that it does not sufficiently appear upon the return , that they were committed by the lords in council , the court have given their opinion in that . but the other objection still remains , whether they ought to have been committed at all , and therefore when they now appear upon this habeas corpus , we say , they were not legally committed to prison , because a peer ought not to be committed to prison in the first instance for misdemeanour . mr. sollicit . gen. if you please you may speak to that by and by , but that is not proper now for you to offer , or for the court to determine , whether a peer may be committed upon an accusation for a misdemeanour ? mr. finch . with submission , that is such a difficulty that lyes in the way against the reading of the information , that you must get over it , before you can come at the reading of it . mr. att. gen. you will have your time for all this matter by and by , but certainly , you cannot be admitted to it yet . l. ch. iust. truly i think you are too early with that exception . mr. finch . with submission , we think this is the proper time , and i will tell your lordship the reason why . ld. ch. iust. mr. finch , certainly every thing in the world , that can be said , you will say for your cllent , and you shall be heard ; for we are very willing to deliver these noble lords , if we can by law , and if the exceptions you make be legal . mr. finch . my lord , we do not doubt your justice , and therefore we desire to offer what we have to say in this point ; the only question ( now it seems ) is about our time of making our exception . mr. attor . ( we apprehend ) did say one thing which was certainly a little too large ; that however any man comes into court , if the court find him here , they may charge him with an information . mr. attor . gen. who says so ? i said no such thing . mr. finch . then i acquit mr. attorney of it , he did not say so : then both he and i agree the law to be , that a man that does come into court , if he does not come in by legal process , he is not to be charg'd with an information ; then since we do agree in that proposition , certainly we must be heard to this point , whether we are here upon legal process , before you can charge us with this information ? mr. attor . gen. you think you have said a fine thing now , and take upon you an authority to make me agree to what you please . mr. finch . certainly the consequence is plain upon your own premises . mr. attor . gen. do you undertake to speak for me ? mr. finch . i am in the judgment of the court , and to them i leave it . mr. attor . gen. i know you thought you had got an extraordinary advantage , by making me say what you please ; but there has been very little said , but what has been grounded upon mistakes all along : this is that i do say , if a man comes in voluntarily upon any recognizance , though he be not in custody ; or if he comes in upon any process , if the court find him here , though that process be not for the thing charged in the information , yet the court is so much in possession of the person , that he shall plead to any information , and that i do say , and will stand by . mr. soll. gen. my lord , we are here in a very great auditory , and this court is always a very great court , ( but here is a greater and nobler assembly , than usually we have here ) and these gentlemen , to shew their eloquence , and oratory , would , by converting propositions otherwise than they are delivered , put another meaning upon them , and so draw strange inferences from them ; but these arts we are sure will not prevail here ; we say plainly , and we are sure the law is so , ( let them apprehend what they will ) that your lordship cannot exhibit an information to any man that you find accidentally here in court ; then says mr. finch , we are agreed ; but withal ( say i ) take my other proposition , if a person be brought into court by legal process , or upon any contempt whatsoever , by an attachment , or warrant , or upon a habeas corpus after a commitment , being thus found in court , your lordship may certainly charge him with an information ; when these gentlemen , who are so eager on the otherside , did preside here , and stood in the places where mr. attorney and i now are ; i can name them abundance of cases of the like nature with this , when men have been compelled to appear to informations , and plead presently ; they are the persons that made the precedents ; they made the law , for ought i know : i 'm sure i find the court in possession of this , as law , and we pray the usual course may be followed . mr. finch . 'pray my lord spare us a word in this matter : i do agree with mr. attor . in this matter , but i do not agree with mr. sollicitor . mr. soll. gen. you do not agree with your self . mr. finch . i hope i do , and always shall agree with my self , but i do not agree with you , mr. sollicitor . mr. soll. gen. you do not in agree with what you were in . mr. finch . says mr. attorney , a man that comes voluntarily in , cannot be charged with an information ; with him i agree . says mr. sollicitor , a man that comes in , and is found in court by any process , may be charg'd with an information : i say no , if the process be wholly illegal , for he cannot be said to be legally in court : suppose a peer of the realm be taken upon a capias , and is committed to the marsha●…ea , and is brought up upon a habeas corpus , i would fain know whether you could declare against him . mr. attor . gen. no , we cannot . mr. finch . and why is that , but because the process is illegal , and he is not truly in court : then is it a proper time now , to make this a question , whether my lords here were legally committed , before you can lay any thing to their charge by way of information ; for if the commitment be illegal , it is a void commitment ; and if the commitment be void , the process is void , and then my lords are not legally in court. ld. ch. iust. that sure is but returning again to the same question that has been determined already . mr. soll. gen. if your lordship will permit them to go over and over the same things , we shall never have an end . mr. finch . my lord , we pray these gentlemen of the kings council may be a little cool with us , and then they will find , we do not talk the same things over and over again , nor meddle with that which the court have given their judgment in . ld. ch. iust. well , go on sir. mr. finch . my lord , we say , it is the priviledge of the peers of england , that none of them shall be committed to prison for a misdemeanour , especially in the first instance , and before judgment ; this ( we say ) is the right of my lords , the bishops , and that which they claim as lords of parliament . now it appears upon this return and the warrant , that the council-table hath committed them , ( for your lordship and the court hath rul'd it , that this commitment must be taken to be by order of the privy-council , and we meddle not with that further ) but we say that the council-table may commit a man unjustly , that is certain : there has been relief often given in this court against commitments by the council-table : and that they were unjustly committed , depends upon that point of their priviledge as peers . mr. serj. pemb. my lord , we say , that the lords of the council have illegally committed these noble persons , who are peers of the realm , and ought to have the priviledge of their peerage , which is not to be committed for a misdemeanour ; that the council ought not to have done : for the peers of england ought no more to be committed for a misdemeanour , and to be imprisoned , especially upon the first process , than they may be in a case of debt . it is true , in the case of treason , felony , or the breach of the peace , the peers have not such a priviledge ; they may be committed ; but for a bare misdemeanour ( as this does appear to be in the warrant of commitment ) they ought not to be committed ; but they were committed by the lords of the council , and we now complain of this to your lordship as illegal , and therefore pray my lords may be discharged . sir robert sawyer . will your lordship be pleased to favour me a word on the same side for my lords the bishops . it must be agreed to me , that if a peer be brought into court , as taken by a capias , he cannot be charged with a declaration ; and the reason is , because the process is illegal : then , my lord , with submission , when a peer comes upon a foreign commitment , and is brought in custody upon a habeas corpus , this is either in the nature of a process , or a final commitment , as a judgment ; they will not say , that this is a good commitment so as to amount to a judgment ; for the council-board could not give a judgment in the case ; besides , the commitment is illegal because it is not a commitment till they find security to answer an information here , but 't is a warrant to keep them for a misdemeanour ; besides , there is another thing we have to say to this warrant , ( for i am making objections against the validity of this commitment ) it does not appear that there was any oath made , and therefore the court must adjudge that there was no oath made , and then no man ought without an oath to be committed , much less a peer ; but that which we chiefly rely upon , is , that my lords ought not to have been committed for this , which is but a misdemeanour at most : and if they use it , as process to bring my lords the bishops to answer an information we say , by law no such process can be taken out against the persons of peers for bare misdemeanours . i do agree , that for fellony , treason , or surety of the peace , the persons of peers may be committed ; and that which is called surety of the peace in our books , mr. sollicitor knows very well , in some of the rolls of parliament , is called breach of the peace , but it is all one ; and the meaning , in short , is , that it is such a breach of the peace , as for which a man by law may be obliged to find sureties for the peace . if it should mean a breach of the peace by implication , as all trespasses and misdemeanours , are said to be contra pacem in the indictment or information , then it were a simple thing to enumerate the cases wherein priviledges did not lie ; for there could be no information whatsoever , but must be contra pacem , and so there could be no such thing as priviledge at all : and besides , we say , the very course of this court is contrary to what they would have ; for in the case of a peer , for a misdeameanour , you go first by summons , and then you do not take out a capias as against a common person , but the next process is a distringas , and so ad infinitum ; and i do appeal to them on the other side , and challenge them to shew any one precedent , when a peer was brought thus into court , to be charged with an information , without it were in the case of an apparent breach of the peace , for he must be charged in custody , and there must be a committitur to the marshal , to intitle the court to proceed ; your lordship will find very few precedents of cases of this nature about common persons , for till within these or years there was no such thing ever done against a common person ; but this was the rule ; first there went out a subpoena , and then an attachment , and when the party was taken upon the attachment , he is taken to come in upon process , and then the court would charge him presently ; but if he did appear upon the summons , they would not charge him , but he had time to take a copy of the information , and an imparlance of course , till the next ●…erm , before he could be compelled to plead . but in the case of a peer , there never was any such precedent , as the attaching his person , but only a summons and distress ; and i would be glad the king's council would shew that ever there was any such process taken out against the person of a peer , for a meer misdemeanour . my lord , 't is plain , what breach of the peace means in every information , and i only speak this to acquaint the court how the constant proceedings in all these cases have been . these informations were anciently more frequent in the star-chamber ; and what was the process there ? not the common process of a subpoena , that was not the course there ; but the process was a letter from the chancellor , that if the party upon that letter did not appear , in a common case , there went out an attachment ; but in a peers case , never ; and so it appears by cromptons iurisdiction of courts . tit. star-chamber . this appears likewise by the proceedings in chancery against the peers , till the queens time , they did not so much as take out an attachment after default upon a subpoena , but they would then in the queens time , be so bold as to take out an attachment against a lord for not appearing ; but that course was condemned as illegal ; so we find in my lord dyer . mr. attor . gen. that was at a common persons suit. sir robert sawyer . but the proceedings in the star-chamber were at the king's suit , and i am sure mr. sollicitor knows that the peers priviledges reach to informations , but as i was saying , it was so adjudged as to the chancery in my lord cromwel's case . xiiii . eliz. dyer , . ld. ch. iust. you take a great compass , sir robert sawyer , but pray remember what you laid down at first , for the ground of your discourse , that there was never any commitment of a peer for a bare misdemeanour , you must keep to that , that is the point you are to look after . sir robert. sawyer . my lord i will so , i do not cite these cases but for this purpose , to shew , that in all courts the peers have particular priviledges ; and i am sure they can produce you no precedents for any such proceedings against a peer ; in my experience of these matters , i never knew any such ; nay ; i knew it always to be otherwise , that in informations for misdemeanours , there did never issue out a capias against a peer ; and mr. attorney knows very well , it was so in the late case of my lord lovelace ; for that case of my lord devonshire , that was an express breach of the peace , tho' it was debated and disputed then ; so that i take it , these noble lords cannot be charged with this information , because they do not come in by legal process ; and unless they can shew me any case , where a peer did ever come in upon such a commitment , and answered to an information upon that commitment , it must certainly be allowed not to be the legal course ; though if such a precedent could be shewn , that past sub silentio , without debate or solemn determination , that would not do , nor could bind the rest of the peers ; if one man would lose a particular benefit he has , all the whole body must not lose it ; and the benefit is not small , of time to make his defence ; of imparling ; of taking a copy of the indictment , and preparing himself to plead as his case will bear ; and indeed a common person has used to have these priviledges , tho in some cases of late , they have taken the other course ; and if a capias went out ( which we say , cannot go against a lord ) and the party were brought in , he was to answer immediately : now , my lord , i take it , that the priviledges of peers is in all times the same with the parliamentary priviledge in parliament time , which reacheth to informations , as well as other actions . ( my lord cooke is express in this point ) in the . instit. . if that objection should hold good , that every information being contra pacem , that should be a breach of the peace , then ( as i said before ) priviledge will hold in no information , which is contrary to that and all our other books ; 't is only such a breach of the peace , as for which security of the peace may be required . but further , that this is a priviledge enjoyed by the peers spiritual as well as temporal , i suppose will not be denied , for i think they will not question , but that the bishops , and abbots that were lords of parliament were peers , and we find in our books when the court has been moved for a capias against an abbot , if he were a mitred abbot , and sat in the lords house , it was always said , that no such process ought to go , and so it is in the case of bishops ; but indeed for other noble men , the difference is this , where it does not appear upon record , that they are lords of parliament , there the courts have put them to bring their writs of priviledge , but where it does appear upon record , that they are peers , the court is to allow and take notice of their priviledge , and there needs no such writ . now that the parliament priviledge , and the priviledge of peers ( as to their persons ) is the same , appears by the form of the writ in the register fol. . fitz herb. nat. brev. . the words of the writ are these , that if such a one be sued at the suit of another , the writ commands , that a peer out of parliament time should have the same priviledge with those summoned by the king to the parliament ; and i know not any difference that can be put between them , and it cannot be denied , that all informations whatsoever , unless such as are for breaches of the peace , for which surety of the peace may be required , are under the controul of the parliament priviledge ; so that upon these grounds , i do press that my lords the bishops may be discharged : if there be any information against us , we are ready to enter our appearance to answer it according to the course of the court ; but if the information be for no other thing than what is contained in the warrant of commitment , then their persons ought to be priviledged from commitment . mr. pollixfen . if your lordship please to take it all together , you will find it a case very well worth your consideration , it being the case of all the peerage of england . mr. attor . gen. my lord , these gentlemen have taken a great deal of liberty , and spent much of your time in making long arguments , and after all , truly i do not know where to have them , nor can understand what they would be at ; it seems they agree that for treason , felony , and breach of the peace , a peer may be committed . ld. ch. iust. that is ( say they ) such a breach of the peace , as for which surety of the peace may be required . mr. attor . gen. then all the learning they have been pleased to favour us with , is at an end , for if here be any thing charged upon the bishops , for which sureties of the peace may be required , then this is a good commitment . ld. ch. iust. that they must agree upon their own arguments . mr. attor . gen. can then any man in the world say , that a libel does not require sureties of the peace ? for we must now take it as it is here upon this return . how my lords the bishops will clear themselves of it , is a question for another time ; but the warrant says they were commited for contriving , framing , and publishing a seditious libel against his majesty , and his government ; is there a greater misdemeanour ? or is there any thing on this side a capital crime that is a greater offence ? is there any thing that does so tread upon the heels of a capital offence , and comes so near the greatest of crimes that can be committed against the government ? not to enlarge at this time upon what the consequences of such things may be , is there a greater breach of the peace than such seditious practices ? no doubt , any man may be committed for it , and may be bound to find sureties for his good behaviour . sir robert sawyer . i say sureties of the peace , not of the good behaviour . mr. soll. gen. pray my lord , would you consider where we are , we are going towards france , i think , or some farther country ; they have set us out to sea , and i do not see after this rate , when we shall come to land ; certainly , these gentlemen are mightily out of the way , and would fain have us so too ; we are here upon a single question , as this case stands before your lordship , upon the return ; here is a libel , a seditious libel , said to be contrived , made and published against the king and his government , by these noble lords the prisoners ; this is the accusation ; suppose this be true , ( that is to be proved hereafter ) ( i hope they are innocent , and will prove themselves so ) but suppose it to be true , that they have made a seditious libel against the king and his government , will any man say , that this is not done vi & armis ? this is a libel with a witness ; nay , two or three degrees more may carry it to high treason , and all the informations that were exhibited by sir robert sawyer , when he was attorney general , ( and he exhibited a great many for libels ) constantly these words were in vi & armis , & contra pacem . bishop of peterborough . was it so in your own case mr. sollicitor ? mr. soll. gen. yes , it was so in my case , and you were one of them that prosecuted me , for ought i know ; or if you did not prosecute me you preached against me ; or if you did not , some of your tribe did : but so , my lord , it was in many other cases , within time of memory . sir robert sawyer has past a complement upon me , of my great skill in parliament matters ; but truly there needs no great skill in matters where the law is so plain ; a peer they agree may be in prison for treason , felony , or breach of the peace ; but that breach of the peace ( i say they ) is where the law requires . sureties of the peace ; but is there any certainty where sureties of the peace shall be required , and where not ? then i would put this cafe . these lords have contrived and published a seditious libel against the king and his government ; and whether this be not such a breach of the peace , as will require sureties of the peace , is the question before you : and it plainly appears to be so , in sir baptist hick's case , in hobbart . if a man write a private letter , provoking another to fight , although there be no fighting , this is a breach of the peace , now a letter can do no wrong in that kind , but as it incites and stirs up to fighting , which may occasion blood-shed , and i think there cannot be a greater breach of the peace , than for a man to come to the king's face , and publish a libel against him , and yet according to their doctrine , this man shall go away , and you shall not take him up , but take a subpoena against him , and wait for the delay of all the ordinary process ; and they tell you another thing , that a capias does not lie upon an information against the person of a peer , and that there is no precedent of any such thing , but i would pray them to remember the case of my lord lovelace , about some three years ago for breaking a foot-mans head. it seems , if a man libels the king in his own presence , that is not so great a matter , as a little correction to an insolent foot-man ; but there he was bound in a recognizance to appear here in this court , and accordingly he did appear , and was charged with an information , and as to that precedent i do believe sir robert sawyer and mr. finch won't contradict me ; this was in the first year of this king : there was likewise my lord of pembrooke's case , who went to a disorderly house , and there frighted some people , and we moved the court , and had an attachment against him , for a misdemeanour , and he was glad to compound the thing , or it had not ended so soon as it did ; and yet if a lord comes to the king's person , and affronts him to his very face , will not an attachment lie against him for it ? certainly it will. my lord , we have gone out of the way too much already , and these gentlemen will lead us farther , but we hope your lordships will reduce us to the methods of the law : here is an information which we desire may be read , if they have any thing to plead to it , their time for that will come after it is read ; if they think they have been illegally imprison'd , it appears plainly upon this return , who they were that did commit them ; here are a great many noble lords to answer an action of false imprisonment , if these lords think fit , and may have these learned gentlemen , that are very well able to advise them what they should do in it . sir robert sawyer . we pray your lordships judgment , whether the cases put by mr. sollicitor are like our case . mr. soll. gen. they are as like , as sir robert sawyer is to mr. attorney that was . sir robert sawyer . those cases are of apparent breaches of the peace , so likewise was my lord of devonshire's case , but certainly that was not at all like this . mr. finch . with your lordships favour i would add but one word , and i would repeat nothing of what has been said ; all that i shall say is this , there is a great deal of difference between an actual breach of the peace , and that which in the bare form of an information is a breach of the peace , by construction of law , it being contra pacem : suppose it be laid that a man did vi & armis speak words , will that make the words a breach of the peace ? mr. soll. gen. it must be vi & armis , and certainly is a breach of the peace . mr. finch . if a man write a petition , are the pen and ink that he uses , the arms ? mr. soll. gen. my lord , i hope mr. finch remembers what i heard him say in algernoon sidney's case , scribere est agere . mr. finch . i think it is so , mr. sollicitor , but every action is not a breach of the peace . ld. ch. iust. we let my brothers deliver their opinions , i will give you mine . mr. iust. allyb. the single question now is , whether or no that which mr. sollicitor was pleased to name as the crime , and lay it to the charge of my lords the bishops , that is a seditious libel , be a breach of the peace : i do confess that there is little of argument to be drawn from forms of indictments ; and i shall put no great stress upon the words vi & ●…mit , where the fact will not come near it , but if a commitment may ensue , ( as they seem to agree ) wherever surety of the peace may be required , nothing seems more important to me , than that surety of the peace should be required , where there is any thing of sedition in the case ; and wherever there is a seditions act , i cannot tell how to make any other construction of it , but that it is an actual breach of the peace , that is my opinion . mr. iust. powell . i am of the same opinion in this point too , as i was in the other point before , it was a matter of great consequence ( i thought ) upon the former point , but now it appears to me , to be of far greater consequence than it did at first ; for here , all the great , high , and noble peers of england are concerned in it , as to the●… priviledge . our predecessors in this court heretofore would not determine the priviledges of the peers ; but left them to themselves to make what judgment they pleased of them : i think truly 't is a thing of that weight , that it may be very fit for the court to take time to consider of it , and i declare for my own part , i will not take upon me to deliver ●…y opinion in a matter of this consequence , before i have consulted all the books , that can give me any light in the case . mr. iust. allybone . brother powell , i am not determining , limitting , or cramping the priviledge of peers , but i am only considering whether or no a seditious libel be a breach of the peace ; 't is agreed to be on all hands a breach of the peace . is there any thing that will require sureties of the peace to be given upon the doing of it ? for there sir robert sawyer has laid the foundation of his distinction , and if that shall draw any person under a commitment , then , say i , in my judgment , wherever there is a seditious libel , there is that which is an actual breach of the peace ; for i am sure , there is that , which is sufficient to require sureties of the peace ; i controvert not the right of the peers one way or other , but only declare my opinion , that this is a fact that comes within the rule laid down by them , that what will require sureties of the peace , is a breach of the peace . mr. iust. holloway . god forbid that in a case of this nature , any one should take upon him here to say , that every misdemeanour were a breach of the peace , i say not so ; but certainly there are some such misdemeanours as are breaches of the peace ; and if here be such a misdemeanour before us , then it is acknowledged that even in parliament time , a priviledged person might be committed for it : for in treason , felony , and breach of the peace , priviledge does not hold . i will not take upon me ( as my brother said ) to determine concerning the priviledge of the peers ; it is not of our cognizance , nor have we any thing to do , either to enlarge or confine priviledge , , nor do we determine whether this be such a libel as is charged in the information , that will come in question another time , but certainly as this case is , the information ought to be read , and my lords ought to appear and plead to it . ld. ch. iust. certainly we are all of us here as tender of the priviledges of peers , as any in the world can be , and as tender as we would be , and ought to be in trying any man's right ; it becomes us to do it with great respect and regard to my lords the bishops ; and therefore i would be as careful ( if that were the question before me ) to consider very well , before i give my opinion , as ever i was in my life . but when i see there can come no mischief at all to the priviledges of the peers , by what is agreed on all hands ; i think i may very justly give my opinion ; for here is the question , whether the fact charged in the warrant , be such a misdemeanour as is a breach of the peace , and the words of the warrant ( which is now upon the record ) being such as have been recited , i cannot but think it is such a misdemeanour as would have required sureties of the peace , and if sureties were not given , a commitment might follow ; and therefore i think the information must be read . mr. attor . gen. we pray the clerk may read it . clerk reads . middlesex ss . memorand . that sir thomas powys , knight , attorney general of our lord the king , who for our said lord the king , in this behalf sues , comes in his own person here into the court of our said lord the king , before the king himself at westminster , on friday next , after the morrow of the holy trinity in this term , and for our said lord the king , gives the court here to understand , and be informed , that our said sovereign lord the king out of his signal clemency — mr. soll. gen. read it as it is in latin. bish. of . peterborough . my lord , we desire it may be read in english , for we don't understand law-latin . mr. soll. gen. no , my lords the bishops are very learned men ( we all know ) pray read it in latin. clerk reads . memorundum , quod thomas powys , miles , attornatus domini regis nunc generalis , qui pro eodem domino rege in hac parte sequitur , in propr●…a persona sua venit hic in curia dict' domini regis coram ipso rege apud westmonasterium , die veneris proxime post crastinum sanctae trinitatis , isto eodem ●…ermino , & pro eodem domino rege . dat curiae hic intelligi & informari , quod dictus dominus rex nunc ex insigni clementia & benigna intentione suis erga subd●…os su●…s regni ●…ui angliae , per regiam suam praerogativam , quarto die aprilis , anno regni dict' domini regis nunc tertio , apud westmonasterium in comitatu middlesexiae , declarationem suam intitulatam , his majesties gracious declaration to all his loving subjects for liberty of conscience , gerentem datum eisdem die & anno , magno sigillo suo ang●…ae sigi●…dtim publicavit ; in qua quidem declaratione continetur , iames r. it having pleased almighty god , not only to bring us to the imperial crowns of these kingdoms through the greatest difficulties , but to preserve us by a more than ordinary providence upon the throne of our royal ancestors . there is nothing now that we so earnestly desire as to establish our government on such a foundation as may make our subjects happy , and unite them to us , by inclination as well as duty , which we think can be done by no means so effectually , as by granting to them the free exercise of their reilgion for the time to come , and add that to the perfect enjoyment of their property ; which has never been in any case invaded by us since our coming to the crown , which being the two things men value most , shall ever be preserved in these kingdoms during our reign over them , as the truest methods of their peace , and our glory . we cannot but heartily wish , as it will easily be believed , that all the people of our dominions were members of the catholick church , yet we humbly thank almighty god , it is , and hath of long time been our constant sense and opinion ( which upon diverse occasions we have declared ) that conscience ought not to be constrained , nor people forced in matters of meer religion . it has ever been directly contrary to our inclination , as we think it is to the interest of government which it destroys , by spoiling trade , depopulating countries , and discouraging strangers ; and finally , that it never obtained the end for which it was imployed . and in this we are the more co●…medi by the reflections we have made upon the conduct of the four last reigns . for after all the frequent and pressing endeavours that were used in each of them , to reduce this kingdom to an exact conformity in religion , it is visible , the success has not answered the design : and that the difficulty is invincible . we therefore , out of our princely care and affection unto all our loving subjects , that they may live at ease and quiet , and for the increase of trade , and encouragement of strangers , have thought fit by virtue of our royal prerogative , to issue forth this our declaration of indulgence , making no doubt of the concurrence of our two houses of parliament , when we shall think it convenient for them to meet . in the first place we do declare , that we will protect and maintain our arch-bishops , bishops , and clergy , and all other our subjects of the church of england , in the free exercise of their religion as by law established , and in the quiet and full enjoyment of all their possessions without any molestation or disturbance whatsoever . we do likewise declare , that it is our royal will and pleasure , that from henceforth the execution of all and all manner of penal-laws in matters ecclesiastical , for not coming to church , or not receiving the sacrament , or for any other non-conformity to the religion established , or for or by reason of the exercise of religion in any manner whatsoever , be immediately suspended , and the further execution of the said penal-laws and every of them is hereby suspended . and to the end , that by the liberty hereby granted the peace and security of our government in the practice thereof , may not be endangered , we have thought fit , and do hereby streightly charge and command all our loving subjects , that as we do freely give them leave to meet and serve god after their own way and manner , be it in private houses , or places purposely hired or built for that use , so that they take especial care that nothing be preach'd or taught amongst them which may any ways tend to alienate the hearts of our people from us or our government , and that their meetings and assemblies be peaceably , openly , and publickly held , and all persons freely admitted to them ; and that they do signifie and make known to some one or more of the next justices of the peace , what place or places they set apart for those uses : and that all our subjects may enjoy such their religious assemblies with greater assurance and protection , we have thought it requisite , and do hereby command , that no disturbance of any kind be made or given unto them , under pain of our displeasure , and to be further proceeded against with the uttermost severity . and forasmuch as we are desirous to have the benefit of the service of all our loving subjects , which by the law of nature is inseparably annexed to , and inherent in our royal person , and that none of our subjects may for the future be under any discouragement or disability ( who are otherwise well inclined and fit to serve us ) by reason of some oaths or tests that have been usually administred on such occasions , we do hereby further declare , that it is our royal will and pleasure , that the oaths commonly called the oaths of supremacy and allegiance , and also the several tests and declarations mentioned in the acts of parliament made in the th . and th . years of the reign of our late royal brother king charles the second , shall not at any time hereafter be required to be taken , declared , or subscribed by any person or persons whatsoever , who is or shall be employed in any office or place of trust , either civil or military , under us , or in our government . and we do further declare it to be our pleasure and intention from time to time hereafter to grant our royal dispensations under our great seal to all our loving subjects so to be employed , who shall not take the said oaths , or subscribe or declare the said tests or declarations in the above-mentioned acts , and every of them . and to the end that all our loving subjects may receive and enjoy the full benefit and advantage of our gracious indulgence hereby intended , and may be acquitted and discharged from all pains , penalties , forfeitures , and disabilities by them or any of them incurred or forfeited , or which they shall or may at any time hereafter be liable to , for or by reason of their non-conformity , or the exercise of their religion , and from all suits , troubles , or disturbances for the same , we do hereby give our free and ample pardon unto all non-conformists , recusants , and other our loving subjects for all crimes and things by them committed or done contrary to the penal laws formerly made relating to religion , and the profession or exercise thereof , hereby declaring that this our royal pardon and indemnity shall be as good and effectual to all intents and purposes , as if every individual person had been therein particularly named , or had particular pardons under our great seal , which we do likewise declare shall from time to time be granted unto any person or persons desiring the same , willing and requiring our judges , justices , and other officers , to take notice of and obey our royal will and pleasure herein before declared . and although the freedom and assurance we have hereby given in relation to religion and property , might be sufficient to remove from the minds of our loving subjects all fears and jealousies in relation to either ; yet we have thought fit further to declare , that we will maintain them in all their properties and possessions , as well of church and abby-lands , as in any other their lands and property whatsoever . et idem attornatus dicti domini regis nunc generalis pro eodem domino rege ulterius dat curiae hic intelligi & informari , quod postea scilicet vicesimo septimo die aprilis anno regni dicti domini regis nunc , &c. quarto , apud westmonasterium praedictum in comitatu middlesexiae praedicto , idem dominus rex nunc ex eadem clementia & benigna intentione suis erga subditos suos regni sui angliae , per regiam suam praerogativam , aliam regalem suam declarationem intitulatam , his majesties gracious declaration , gerentem datum eisdem die & anno ultimo mentionatis , magno sigillo suo angliae similiter sigillatam , publicavit ; in quâ quidem declaratione continetur , iames rex . our conduct has been such in all times , as ought to have perswaded the world , that we are firm and constant to our resolutions ; yet that easie people may not be abused by the malice of crafty wicked men , we think fit to declare , that our intentions are not changed since the th . of april . when we issued out our declaration for liberty of conscience , in the following terms — his majesties gracious declaration to all his loving subjects for liberty of conscience . iames rex . it having pleased almighty god not only to bring us to the imperial crown of these kingdoms , thro the greatest difficulties , but to preserve us by a more than ordinary providence , upon the throne of our royal ancestors ; there is nothing now that we so earnestly desire , as to establish our government on such a foundation as may make our subjects happy , and unite them to us by inclination , as well as duty ; which we think can be done by no means so effectually , as by granting to them the free exercise of their religion for the time to come , and add that to the perfect enjoyment of their property , which has never been in any case invaded by us since our coming to the crown ; which being the two things men value most , shall ever be preserved in these kingdoms , during our reign over them , as the truest methods of their peace and our glory . we cannot but heartily wish , as it will easily be believed , that all the people of our dominions were members of the catholick church ; yet we humbly thank almighty god , it is , and hath of long time been our constant sense and opinion ( which upon divers occasions we have declared . ) that conscience ought not to be constrained , nor people forced in matters of meer religion . it hath ever been directly contrary to our inclinations , as we think it is to the interest of government , which it destroys , by spoiling trade , depopulating countries , and discouraging strangers , and finally , that it never obtained the end for which it was employed . and in this we are the more confirmed by the reflections we have made upon the conduct of the four last reigns : for after all the frequent and pressing endeavours that were used in each of them , to reduce this kingdom to an exact conformity in religion , it is visible the success has not answered the design , and that the difficulty is invincible : we therefore out of our princely care and affection unto all our loving subjects , that they may live at ease and quiet , and for the increase of trade , and encouragment of strangers , have thought fit by vertue of our royal prerogative to issue forth this our declaration of indulgence , making no doubt of the concurrence of our two houses of parliament , when we shall think it convenient for them to meet . in the first place , we do declare , that we will protect and maintain our archbishops , bishops , and clergy , and all other our subjects of the church of england , in the free exercise of their religion as by law established , and in the quiet and full enjoyment of all their possessions , without any molestation or disturbance whatsoever . we do likewise declare , that it is our royal will and pleasure , that from henceforth the execution of all , and all manner of penal laws in matters ecclesiastical , for not coming to church , or not receiving the sacrament , or for any other nonconformity to the religion established ; or for or by reason of the exercise of religion in any manner whatsoever , be immediately suspended , and the further execution of the said penal laws , and every of them , is hereby suspended . and to the end that by the liberty hereby granted , the peace and security of our government in the practice thereof may not be endangered , we have thought fit , and do hereby straitly charge and command all our loving subjects , that as we do freely give them leave to meet and serve god after their own way and manner , be it in private houses , or places purposely hired or built for that use , so that they take especial care that nothing be preached or taught amongst them , which may any ways tend to alienate the hearts of our people from us or our government ; and that their meetings and assemblies be peaceably , openly , and publickly held , and all persons freely admitted to them ; and that they do signifie and make known to some one or more of the next justice of the peace , what place or places they set apart for those uses . and that all our subjects may enjoy such their religious assemblies with greater assurance and protection , we have thought it requisite , and do hereby command , that no disturbance of any kind be made or given unto them , under pain of our displeasure , and to be further proceeded against with the uttermost severity . and forasmuch as we are desirous to have the benefit of the service of all our loving subjects , which by the law of nature is inseparably annexed to , and inherent in our royal person ; and that none of our subjects may for the future be under any discouragement or disability ( who are otherwise well inclined and fit to serve us ) by reason of some oaths o●… tests that have been usually administred on such occasions ; we do hereby further declare , that it is our royal will and pleasure , that the oaths commonly called the oaths of supremacy and allegiance ; and also the several tests and declarations mentioned in the acts of parliament , made in the th . and th . years of the reign of our late royal brother king charles the second , shall not at any time hereafter be required to be taken , declared , or subscribed by any person or persons whatsoever , who is or shall be imployed in any office or place of trust , either civil of military , under us or in our government . and we do further declare it to be our pleasure and intention , from time to time hereafter , to grant our royal dispensations under our great seal to all our loving subjects so to be employed , who shall not take the said oaths , or subscribe or declare the said tests or declarations , in the above mentioned acts , and every of them . and to the end that all our loving subjects may receive and enjoy the full benefit and advantage of our gracious indulgence hereby intended , and may be acquitted and discharged from all pains , penalties , forfeitures and disabilities , by them or any of them incurred or forfeited , or which they shall or may at any time hereafter be liable to , for or by reason of their nonconformity or the exercise of their religion , and from all suits , troubles , or disturbances for the same ; we do hereby give our free and ample pardon unto all nonconformists , recusants , and other our loving subjects , for all crimes and things by them committed or done , contrary to the penal laws formerly made relating to religion , and the profession or exercise thereof , hereby declaring , that this our royal pardon and indempnity shall be as good and effectual to all intents and purposes , as if every individual person had been therein particularly named , or had particular pardons under our great seal : which we do likewise declare shall from time to time be granted unto any person or persons desiring the same . willing and requiring our judges , justices , and other officers , to take notice of , and obey our royal will and pleasure herein before declared . and although the freedom and assurance we have hereby given in relation to religion and property , might be sufficient to remove from the minds of our loving subjects all fears and jealousies in relation to either ; yet we have thought fit further to declare , that we will maintain them in all their properties and possessions , as well of church and abby lands , as in any other their lands and properties whatsoever . given at our court at whitehall the th . day of april , . in the third year of our reign . ever since we granted this indulgence , we have made it our principal care to see it preserved without distinction , as we are encouraged to do dayly by multitudes of addresses , and many other assurances we receive from our subjects of all perswasions , as testimonies of their satisfaction and duty , the effects of which we doubt not but the next parliament will plainly shew , and that it will not be in vain that we have resolved to use our uttermost endeavours to establish liberty of conscience on such just and equal foundations , as will render it unalterable , and secure to all people the free exercise of their religion for ever , by which future ages may reap the benefit of what is so undoubtedly for the general good of the whole kingdom . it is such a security we desire , without the burden and constraint of oaths and tests , which have been unhappily made by some governments , but could never support any ; nor should men be advanced by such means to offices and employments , which ought to be the reward of services , fidelity , and merit . we must conclude , that not only good christians will joyn in this , but whoever is concerned for the increase of the wealth and power of the nation . it would perhaps prejudice some of our neighbours , who might lose part of those vast advantages they now enjoy , if liberty of conscience were settled in these kingdoms , which are above all others most capable of improvements , and of commanding the trade of the world. in pursuance of this great work we have been forced to make many changes both of civil and military officers throughout our dominions , not thinking any ought to be employed in our service , who will not contribute towards the establishing the peace and greatness of their country , which we most earnestly desire , as unbiassed men may see by the whole conduct of our government , and by the condition of our fleet , and of our armies , which with good management shall be constantly the same , and greater , if the safety or honour of the nation require it . we recommend these considerations to all our subjects , and that they will reflect on their present ease and happiness , how for above three years , that it hath pleased god to permit us to reign over these kingdoms , we have not appeared to be that prince our enemies would have made the world afraid of , our chief aim having been not to be the oppressor , but the father of our people , of which we can give no better evidence than by conjuring them to lay aside all private animosities as well as groundless jealousies , and to choose such members of parliament , as may do their part to finish what we have begun for the advantage of the monarchy over which almighty god hath placed us , being resolved to call a parliament , that shall meet in november next at farthest . quam quidem regalem declarationem dicti domini regis nunc ultimo mentionatam idem dominus rex nunc postea scilicet tricesimo die aprilis anno regni sui quarto supra dicto , apud westmonasterium praedictum in comitatu middlesexiae praedicto , imprimi & per totam angliam publicari causavit , & pro magis solemni demonstratione , notificatione , & manifestatione gratiae suae regiae benignitatis & benevolentiae suae ad omnes ligeos suos in eadem declaratione ultimo mentionata specificatos postea scilicet quarto die maii anno regni sui quarto , apud westmonasterium praedictum in comitatu middlesexiae praedicto idem dominus rex debito modo ordinavit prout sequitur . at the court at whitehall , the th . of may , . it is this day ordered by his majesty in council , that his majesty's late gracious declaration , bearing date the th . of april last , be read at the usual time of divine service , upon the th . and th . of this month in all churches and chappels within the cities of london and westminster , and ten miles thereabout ; and upon the d. and th . of iune next in all other churches and chappels throughout this kingdom . and it is hereby further ordered , that the right reverend the bishops cause the said declaration to be sent and distributed throughout their several and respective diocesses , to be read accordingly . et ulterius idem attornatus dicti domini regis nunc generalis pro eodem domino rege dat curiae hic intelligi & informari , quod post confectionem praedicti ordinis scilicet , decimo octavo die maii , anno regni dicti domini regis nunc quarto supradicto , apud westmonasterium praedictum in comitatu middlesexiae praedicto , willielmus archiepiscopus cantuariensis de lambeth in comitatu surriae , willielmus episcopus asaphensis de st. asaph in comitatu flintiae , franciscus episcopus eliensis de parochia sancti andreae holborn in comitatu middlesexiae , iohannes episcopus cicestrensis de cicestria in comitatu sussexiae , thomas episcopus bathenensis & wellensis de civitate wells in comitatu somersetiae , thomas episcopus petriburgensis de parochia sancti andreae holborne in comitatu middlesexiae , & ionathan episcopus bristolensis de civitate bristol , inter se consuluerunt & conspiraverunt , ad diminuendam regiam authoritatem , regalem praerogativam & potestatem , & regimen ejusdem domini regis nunc ' in praemissis , ●…ac ad eundem ordinem infringendum & eludendum ; ac in prosecutione & executione conspirationis praedictae , ipsi iidem willielmus archiepiscopus cantuariensis , willielmus episcopus asaphensis , franciscus episcopus eliensis , iohannes episcopus cicestrensis , thomas episcopus bathonensis & wellensis , thomas episcopus petriburgensis , & ionathan episcopus bristollensis dicto decimo octavo die maii anno regni dicti domini regis nunc quarto supradicto , vi & armis , &c. apud westmonasterium praedictum in comitatu middlesexiae praedicto , illicitè , malitiosè , seditiosè , & scandalosè quoddam falsum , fictum , pernitiosum , & seditiosum libellum , in scriptis de eodem domino rege & regali declaratione & ordine praedictis ( praetensu petitionis ) fabricaverunt , composuerunt & scripserunt , & fabricari componi & scribi causaverunt , & eundem falsum , fictum , malitiosum , pernitiosum , & seditiosum libellum per ipsos praedictum willielmum archiepiscopum cantuariensem , willielmum episcopum asaphensem , franciscum episcopum eliensem , iohannem episcopum cicestrensem , thomam episcopum bathonensem & wellensem , thomam episcopum petriburgensem , & ionathamum episcopum bristollensem manibus suis propriis respective subscriptum die , & anno , & loco ultimo menconatis in praesentiâ dicti domini regis nunc vi & armis , & co . publicaverunt , & publicari causaverunt ; in quo quidem falso , ficto , malitioso , pernitioso & seditioso libello continetur — the humble petition of william archbishop of canterbury , and of divers of the suffragan bishops of that province ( now present with him ) in behalf of themselves and others of their absent brethren , and of the clergy of their respective diocesses , humbly sheweth , that the great averseness they find in themselves to the distributing and publishing in all their churches , your majesties late declaration for liberty of conscience , proceedeth neither from any want of duty and obedience to your majesty ; our holy mother the church of england being both in her principles and in her constant practice unquestionably loyal , and having to her great honour , been more than once publickly acknowledged to be so by your gracious majesty ; nor yet from any want of due tenderness to dissenters , in relation to whom they are willing to come to such a temper as shall be thought fit when that matter shall be considered and setled in parliament and convocation . but among many other considerations , from this especially , because that declaration is founded upon such a dispensing power , as hath been often declared illegal in parliament , and particularly in the years , and . and the beginning of your majesties reign ; and is a matter of so great moment and consequence to the whole nation , both in church and state , that your petitioners cannot in prudence , honour , or conscience , so far make themselves parties to it , as the distribution of it all over the nation ; and the solemn publication of it once and again , even in god's house , and in the time of his divine service , must amount to , in common and reasonable construction . — in contemptum dicti domini regis nunc , & legum hujus regni angliae , manifestum , in malum exemplum omnium aliorum in tali casu delinquentium , ac contra pacem dicti domini regis nunc , coronam & dignitatem suas , &c. unde idem atornatus dicti domini regis nunc generalis pro eodem domino rege petit advisamentum curiae hic in praemissis , & debitum legis processum versus praefatos willielmum archiepiscopum cantuariensem , willielmum episcopum asaphensem , franciscum episcopum eliensem , iohannem episcopum cicestrensem , thomam episcopum bathonensem & wellensem , thomam episcopum petriburgensem , & ionathanum episcopum britollensem fieri ; ad respondendum dicto domino regi de & in praemissis , &c. t. powys . w. williams . mr. attor . gen. my lord we humbly pray , that according to the rules of the court in such cases , my lord archbishop of canterbury , and my lords the bishops may plead to the information . mr. solli . gen. my lords the bishops are here in custody in court , upon the highest commitment that can be in this kingdom , to wit , that of the king in council ; and we pray , that according to the course of the court they may plead to the information presently . l. ch. just. what does his grace and my lords the bishops say to it ? mr. serj. pemberton . will your lordship give us leave who are of council for his grace my lord of canterbury , and the rest of my lords the bishops , to speak a word in this matter ? l. ch. just. ay brother , go on . mr. serj. pemberton . that which we have to desire of your lordship and the court , is this , we have now heard this information read , and 't is plain we could know nothing of this before , the warrant of commitment being only in general for a libel ; and this being a case of the greatest consequence , peradventure , that ever was in westminster hall , ( that , i think , i may boldly say , it is a case of the greatest consequence that ever was in this court ) and it being a matter of this nature , that these great and noble persons my lords the bishops are here taxed with , that is , for making a seditious libel contained in such a petition ( as though it was a libel to petition the king ) we do beg this of your lordship , that ( it being of this great importance ) to the end we may come prepared to say what we have against it , we may have an imparlance till the next term. mr. finch . pray my lord favour me with a word on the same side , for my lords the bishops , you lordship sees now , how necessary the trouble we gave you before , in making our objections against the reading of the information was , and what the drift and aim of the kings councel was , in the desiring the information to be read first ; for now it is read , what is it that they desire of your lordships ? they desire that my lord arch bishop , and my lords the bishops being in custody , and brought here in custody , they may be now so charged with this information , as to plead presently : this my lord we oppose , and with humble submission we ought to have time to imparle , and a copy of the information , that we may consider what we have to plead to it ; for however we come here into court , whether legally or not legally , yet ought we in the one and in the other case , to have time to consider of our defence . and my lord , till of later time this practice which the kings counsel now calls the course of the court , was never used , nor was any man required to plead immediately ; and my lord , if the practice of the court has not been anciently so ( as i do believe they will scarce shew it to be ancienter than a few years last past ) then with humble submission , though the course of the court have been so for some little time past , yet it is not in the power of the cou●… , ( as we humbly conceive ) to make a course in prejudice of all the priviledges that the kings subjects are by the antient rules of law intituled to ; they cannot make a new law in prejudice of any right or priviledge which the subject hath , and call it the course of the court : now that this which we desire for my lords the bishops , is the right and priviledge of the subject , is most manifest ; for there might be many defences that a man may have to make to an accusation of this nature , which it is impossible for him to know at the first hearing of an information read , and yet which would be necessary for him to make use of , or at least it would be impossible for him to make use of in such a manner as the law doth allow of and require . it may be the pleas which he has to plead may be such as that he has not time to put into form ; there may be matters upon the hearing the information read , that it would be necessary for him to give answer to , which he knew not of before , and therefore may neither have materials ready , nor be capable of putting them ( if he had them ready ) into such form as the law requires . they tell you on the other side , that if a man be brought into court by legal process , he may be charged with any information whatsoever , that they are not tied to the fact alleadged in the commitment , but finding the party under a legal imprisonment , they can exhibit an information against him for any other offence . then , my lord , would i fain know , which way any man alive can be prepared to make his just and legal defence , for he knows not his accusation ; for tho' he think it may be for that for which he was committed , yet it may prove otherwise , and then he can be no way provided with materials for his defence , but he must lose all advantages which the law gives him for his defence . my lord , if this be the course of latter times , yet you will not take that to be such a law , as is binding to all future times ; and we are sure the king's counsel cannot shew , that this was the ancient practice , for that was quite otherwise . l. c. iust. mr. finch , you were not here , i suppose , when this question came in debate in this court lately , in the case of a very great person ; 't was urged very earnestly and very learnedly by one that stands by you ; we upon that debate asked sir samuel astry , what the course of the court was , and he told us , that the course of the court ( of his own knowledge for all the time that he had sat as clerk of the crown in this court ) was , that when any one was brought in custody , or upon a recognizance , they were to plead presently . mr. finch . sir samuel astry has not been here so very long , as to make the practice of his time the course of the court. l. c. iust. but i will tell you what he said further , if you will hear me ; he said , he had enquired of mr. waterhouse , whom we all know to have been an old clerk in the crown office , and he told him , that that had been the practice all his time . mr. serj. pemb. my lord , i hope the course of the courts of westminster-hall shall not depend upon the certificate of such a one as mr. waterhouse , who is a man ( we all know ) is superannuated , and very defective in his memory . mr. iust. powel . certainly what they desire for the defendant is very reasonable , for i take the point to be only this ; whether a man may be compelled , being in custody , to plead to an information presently . mr. iust. allibone . pray brother powell spare me a word in this matter ; mr. finch , i suppose you labour that , the court will not deny you , that you may have time to plead according to the course of the court : we are not making new courses for particular facts , that by my consent we will never do ; but if you say such a thing is not the course of the court , and the king's counsel affirm it is , how shall this be determined ? and from whom can we take our information to determine what is the course ? i am sure there is none of us that are here now , can pretend to tell what the ancient course was , for my part i declare it , i cannot ; and i know no reason there should be any novelty introduced into the court upon any ground or reason whatsoever , nor will i consent to any while i sit here . therefore i desire to know what is the ancient course , and how we shall come to the knowledge of that course , if not by the certificate of those who have been ancient officers of the court ? l. c. iust. nay , that is certain , the court will bring in nothing new in any such case as this .. mr. iust. allibone . if that hath not been the antient course without exception , i am against it ; i know no reason my lords the bishops should have any thing new put upon them ; on the other side , they must not expect to have the ancient course of the court declined in their case . mr. pollixf . pray , my lord , hear me a little in this matter ; 't is not my desire that any law should be altered for any particular case , and the course of the court i know is the law of the court ; but i humbly crave leave to say , that i take the ancient course of the court to be quite otherwise , than what the king's counsel would have it ; there may be particular things done now and then , perhaps in particular cases , and upon particular occasions , which will not make what is so done to be the course of the court , nor be a binding rule to you . now as to this matter , of time o●… no time , to plead to an information , i remember the time very well , when i and some others that stood at the bar , and wondred when we saw this practice coming in , and thought it a very hard and mischievous thing , for ( in truth ) the several plots that have been , and the heats of men about those things , have brought in this course ; for certain i am , and i dare affirm there never was any such course here before , neither upon warrant from the chief justice , nor upon recognizance , or any other process , was a man compelled to plead instantly , without having a capias in the regular form after a contempt for not appearing upon summons : truly , my lord , we had no interest in the matter one way or other , to make us scruple it any otherwise than as we were concerned , that the law and justice of the nation should have its true and ancient current . and this i can assure your lordships , that here was both my lord chief justice saunders , and mr. serj. h●…lt and my self , who take notice when this was first offered at , to make a man plead immediately without giving him time to consider what he should plead , could not but say among our selves , that it was an unreasonable thing ; and we were inclined to speak to the court to inform them of the consequence of it , which needs must be very mischievous . sir samuel astry , we know , came to be clerk of the crown in my lord scroggs's time ; we know 't is usual and customary for the court to ask what is the course of the court in doubtful cases , and to receive the information from the officers of the court on both sides . if it be on the plea side from mr. aston , if on the crown side , from sir samuel astry , concerning things of practice , but i did never think that what they reported was final and conclusive to the court : but to make this matter clear , i humbly pray , that you would please to give order for the search of old precedents , how the old practice really hath been ; every thing that has been done in hot times , is not to be made a standing rule : if there do any such thing appear to have been done and practised antiently , truly , my lord , i will submit , and say i am under a mighty mistake ; but if this which is now urged for the course of the court , is nothing but what the zeal of the times , and heat of persecutions hath introduced ; surely that is not fit to be a constant rule for the court to go by ; for every one knows , that the zeal of one time may bring in that by surprize upon one man , which when things are cooll , or at another time will appear to be plain injustice . we have indeed seen strange things of this kind done before , but i hope to god they are now at an end , and we shall never see any such thing done hereafter ; and as for this particular point , i think it is a wonderful thing in the consequence of it , if the law should be as they would have it : here is a long information just read over to a man ( but whether long or short , as to the main point , 't is the same ) and you say the course of the court is , he must plead to it immediately ; surely matters of crime that require punishment to be inflicted on men , are of as much consequence and concern , as any civil matter whatsoever ; and men are to have their rights in those matters preserved , as well as in other matters , which is all i press ; for suppose a man has a special matter to plead , as particularly suppose it be the king's pardon , i cannot give this in evidence upon a trial after not guilty pleaded , then i ought to plead it ; but what if i have it not ready , 't is not telling the court of it , without shewing of it , that will do ; and it may be a man that is taken up , and brought hither in custody , cannot have it ready to shew ; but yet then by this rule a man shall lose the benefit of his plea , by being compelled to answer immediately : but they say , the court will do right , i suppose they will ; and my lords the bishops in this case i believe do not distrust , but that the court will do right ; but i never thought the law was brought to that pass , that such things as these were left wholly in the discretion of the court ; certainly imparlances , time to plead , and just preparations for a man's defence , are things that the law has setled , and not left in the discretion of the court ; and truly to me it seems all one utterly to take away a man's defence , as to hinder him of the means to prepare for it . my lord , here is an information before you against these noble lords , it is a matter of great moment , and tho' , i hope in god , there is no great cause for it , yet however since such persons are concerned , and 't is a matter of such great weight , i hope you will give us such an imparlance , as if we had this day appeared upon the ordinary process , which is an imparlance until the next term. l. ch. iust. there is a difference between this and that other case , if my lords the bishops had appeared upon the summons , they would have had an imparlance of course ; but when they are brought up hither in custody , that mightily alters the case , but that we may not be too hasty in a thing of this nature , let the clerk of the court be consulted with , that we may know what the true course is . mr. att. gen. my lord , we pray sir samuel astry may be examined a little about it . mr. iust. allybone . mr. pollixfen , i believe the court is unanimous in their resolutions of making nothing new in this case ; but pray give me leave to tell you , this is not the first time that this question has come to be agitated in this court since i came hither . now from whence can the court take their measures to be rightly informed what the practice of the court is , but from the information of the officers of the court , who by their constant imployment , are most capable of knowing what the course is . now if you come to offer any thing that may be matter of doubt to the court , concerning the practice of the court , you having known that this thing was controverted before ( for so it has been ) should have provided your self with something that must be a reasonable motive for us to doubt ; for this has not been only once , but often moved ; and our officers have been consulted with concerning this question , which took its rise from such objections as you have made now : now for you to tell us , that you desire that we would look into precedents , is , methinks , pretty odd ; if you had brought us any precedents , it had been something : and withall i must tell you , that you must not reckon the favour of the court in any particular case , to be the standing rules for the practice and course of the court ; but instead of bringing precedents , you only offer your own thoughts , and those would create no doubt in us , but what has been before satisfied upon examination of the officers of the court. mr. pollixfen . pray sir , will you give me leave to answer you one word . mr. iust. powell . truly i have not observed that ever this point was started so , as to beget a question since i came hither , but only in the cases of the quo warranto's ; and truly in that case i thought it hard they should be denied time to plead , especially the consequence being so fatal . l. ch. iust. yes , yes , brother , it has been several times . mr. iust. powell . truly , my lord , i have not observed it , nor do i remember it . sir rob. sawyer . my lord , i have always taken the distinction , as to these matters , to be this — mr. iust. powell . but , my lord , if the ancient course of the court hath been to grant an imparlance , and a copy of the information before they plead , i see no reason why my lords the bishops should not have the benefit of that ancient course ; for if a man that is sued at law for a two-penny trespass , shall have that advantage as to receive a declaration , and have time to plead what he can to it , why should not my lords the bishops in a matter of so great weight , have the same advantage too ? but indeed , if the course of the court had been anciently otherwise , i can say nothing to it ; for the course of the court is certainly the law of the court. mr. iust. allybone . brother powell you say well , if they did produce any one precedent to give us occasion to doubt in the matter . sir rob. sawyer . pray , good my lord , will you give me leave — mr. attorn . gen. why , sir robert sawyer , will you never have done ? mr. soll. gen. no , they are all so zealous , and eager in this case , that they wont permit either the court , or any body else to speak a word but themselves . mr. serj. pemberton . good mr. sollicitor , give us leave to answer the objection that the court hath made to us ; we would satisfie your lordship where the distinction really lieth , where there has been an opportunity for the party to come in , as by summons or subpaena , or the like , and he has slipped that opportunity , and so the king is delayed , in that case they always used to put the party upon pleading presently , when he was taken up upon a capias , and brought in custody ; but when there was never any subpoena taken out ( as the case is here , ) so that the party never had an opportunity to come in and render himself , and appear to answer it according to the due course of law , an imparlance was never yet denyed , nor time to plead ; and that is the case here . sir robert sawyer . my lord , mr. serjant has given you the true distinction , where process has gone out to summon any one to appear to an information , and he hath failed to appear according to the summons , and the prosecutor for the king takes out a capias , if he be brought in upon that capias , the ancient course has been so as they say : but for that other matter , where a man comes in upon a commitment at the first instance , and an information is put in just as this is , the same morning and not before ; if they can shew any one precedent of this kind fifteen years ago , i would be contented to yield that they are in the right , but i am sure they are not able to do it : in sir mathew hales's time when this was moved , it was refused ; and he was clear of another opinion . mr. attor . gen. i hope now my lord we shall be heard a little for the king , and i cannot forbear observing in the first place somewhat that these gentlemen have offered at , who are now inveighing against the heat of the times , when a great part of that heat , we know who were the inflamers of ; but what is all this to the purpose ? the question is barely this , whether when a man is brought in custody into this court , and charged with an information , he shall not by the course of the court be compelled to plead presently . sir robert sawyer . to indictments for treason and felony , he shall be compelled to plead presently , but not to an information for misdemeanours . mr. just. powel . it seems to me very hard he should . mr. attor . gen. sir there are many things that seem hard in law , but yet when all is done , the judges cannot alter the law ; 't is a hard case that a man that is tryed for his life for treason or felony cannot have a copy of his indictment , cannot have council , cannot have his witnesses sworn , but this has been long practiced , and the usage is grown to a law , and from time to time it hath been so taken for law , it cannot be altered without a new law made , as it hath been heretofore , so it must be now , till a greater authority alter it ; and so , as to the case here at present , if it were a new case , and it was the first instance , i must confess i think i should not press it , but if this be the constant practice of the court , and if these gentlemen that now oppose it , some of them ministerially , some of them judicially , have themselves established this practice , they have no reason to wonder , that we follow them in it , we do not blame them for what they do now ; for men when they are of council may be permitted to argue for their client contrary to their former opinions , but if these things by their procurement have done thus before , surely without offence we may pray the like may be gone now . 't is our duty on behalf of the king to desire that he may have right done him , as well as they on the behalf of my lords the bishops , and for the usage to cite precedents were endless , especially of late times , and these gentlemen know them all very well , for they were some of them parties to them themselves , and we can do no more , nor need , than to put them in mind of their own doings , whether it was so before their time or not , it concerns them to make out and retract their own errors ; but in our observation , if ever this was pressed or insisted upon on the kings behalf , this course has always been persued . sir robert sawyer . for a precedent my lord there is the case of my lord hollis , where there was given time after time . mr. soll. gen. that was only time to argue the plea to the jurisdiction of the court. mr. just. powel . mr. solli . have you ever known it contested , and upon debate so ruled , in an information for a misdemeanour , as this case is ? mr. sol. gen. if you please to ask sir samuel astry , he will inform you how the course has been . l. c. iust. what say you , sir samuel astry ? sir sam. astry . my lord , when i came into this place , there was an ancient gentleman that had been long a clerk in the office. l. c. iust. how many years is it since you came into this office ? sir sam. astry . about a dozen years , i think , my lord ; and he sat in this place where mr. harcourt does now , he was always accounted a loyal , honest , and intelligent man , that is mr. waterhouse , who is now alive ; and when i came into my office , i took my instructions in a great measure from him , and asked him , what the course of the court was , in such cases which i my self did not understand ; for tho' i had been an attorney twenty years , yet it was on the other side , the civil side ; and tho' i knew some things of my own knowledge , yet i did not so well know the whole practice of the court , and particularly i asked him , what was the course of the court in this case that is now in question , and he told me , that in all his time and experience , if a man appears upon a recognizance , or was a person in custody , or appeared in propria persona , as a person priviledged , he ought to plead at the first instance , and according to that practice , when sir robert sawyer was attorney-general it was the constant practice , and i am sure he knows it is no new thing . sir rob. saw. but upon what informations , sir samuel astry , were they informations upon misdemeanors ? sir sam. astry . yes , several . sir rob. saw. but was there not process taken out first to call the party in ? sir sam. astry . yes , where process was never taken out . mr. att. gen. for how long time is this that you speak of your own knowledge , sir samuel ? sir sam. astry . about a dozen years . mr. serj. pemb. it was never done till very lately , but after the party was in contempt for not appearing . mr. sol. gen. i would ask you , sir samuel astry , one question : was the usual process of subpoena first taken out ? for mr. serjeant pemberton says it was , do you find any warrant for such a difference as that ? mr. serj. pemb. do you find any such case as this is ? mr. sol. gen. nay , pray mr. serjeant , give us your favour , and let us ask our questions according to your own doctrine . how do you find the practice to have been as to that distinction they have made ? sir sam. astry . sir , i would be very loath to inlarge the precedents of the crown office furthar than the truth is ; i tell you whence i took my instructions , from mr. waterhouse , who was an ancient clerk in the office , he has been in that office sixty years , and the instructions i took from him , were , that this was the practice all his time , and it has been asserted all my time ; it has been often contested , i confess , and mr. pollixfen has always opposed it , and moved against it , but it has been always ruled against him : i know it was against his judgment , but the court always over-ruled it . sir rob. saw. sir samuel astry , can you give any one precedent before you came into this office ? sir sam. astry . sir , i can go no farther than this that i have told you , what information i received from him . sir rob. saw. what is all this but a certificate from mr. waterhouse ? l. c. iust. we can be informed no otherways than by certificate from the old clerks of the office. mr. serj. pemb. alas , he is a child , and not fit to do any thing . mr. pollixf . we all know mr. waterhouse very well , he is a very weak man , and always was so , and there is no depending upon any thing that he says . mr. sol. gen. pray , my lord , will you hear us a little for the king. the bishop of peterborough whispering with sir rob. sawyer , mr. sollicitor said to him , my lord , you had better look another way , and look towards the court , for there your business lies . l. ch. iust. well , mr. sollicitor , what say you ? mr. soll. gen. my lord , it appears plainly , that the king is in possession of this priviledge , and has been so for these dozen years , for so long the justice of the kingdom towards all the subjects , hath run in all the instances of it in this channel ; and tho' it has been contested as often as mr. pollixfen has been of counsel for the defendant , in such cases , it has always been ruled against him ; he indeed has made his continual claims ( sir samuel astry saies ) he has raised the dust , and made a hue and cry , but it has always gone against him . and i would ask the rest of you gentlemen that are of council for my lords the bishops , ( for some , or one of you i am sure , has been concerned in every information that has been exhibited in this court for this nine or ten years last past , i would ask you ) whether in any information that you have been concerned in , if the party being brought in by process , insisted to have time and an imparlance , it was ever granted him . i know you will not say , it ever was ; why then should there be more done in this case , than has been done in all other . cases this ten years ? 't is not sufficient to make declarations against the unreasonableness of the practice , for it is but what you have done your selves , and insisted upon for law ; and all those men that upon informations have been compelled to plead , have had injury done them ; or else these lords will have no injury by the court 's taking the same course . it is true , my lords , the bishops are peers , and here are seven of them , and seven lords go a great way ; they make a committee , i think , in the house of peers , and a mighty matter is made of it , that this is the case of so many lords : but will you alter the course of the court , because seven of my lords the bishops are concerned in it , and they make a mighty stir about the reasonableness of the thing ? how can it be believed that the law will not give a man time to make his defence ? they agree themselves , that if it were in the case of life and death , they must plead presently ; and doth not the same reason hold ? and may not an argument be drawn à fortiori , in the case of a misdemeanour ? if i am not to have time when i plead for my life , there is less reason i should have time to answer a trespass : but , my lord , 't is not reason that weighs in the case , 't is the course of the court , which is the law of the court that we are contending for ; and what is there in the case that should require so much time for my lords the bishops to plead to it ? it is charged in the information , that these noble prelates did make a libel which was produced by them , and published in the kings presence , they can easily tell whether th●… have done this , or not done it : what can they plead , but the general issue ? they talk of special matter to be pleaded , but can they shew any more that they can say , than what any poor ordinary countryman , if he were here to plead to an information , could say ? that is , whether he was guilty , or not guilty . these lords can tell whether it be true , that they did publish the paper laid in the information , and then your lordship will tell them what will be the consequences of that publication in point of law. we say all this was done at westminster , there the scene is laid , and it is not an information for an old stale thing done a great while ago , but a thing that was done yesterday , and a thing notorious enough , their contesting with the king about his declaration of indulgence . and as to what mr. finch has said , that this is a novel invention , and a trick to rob a man of his just defence ; sure he forgets who it is that taught us the trick , if it be a trick , we have learnt it from those that trick'd before us , and what is it that these lords do desire ? they would have an impa●… till michaelmas ▪ term : does or can your lordship think they ask than which is reasonable ? to have six months time to plead not guilty to an information for a libel ; and when so many men have been denyed it formerly upon the instigation of those very gentlemen , that now press so very hard to have it granted ; sure they must expect to be denyed it too ; and all this while these lords lye under this accusation , which is not so trivial a matter as some would make it , i believe my lords the bishops have a desire to be cleared , i suppose it is only their council that desire to delay it , upon what ground i know not , i believe they themselves would be glad to remove the imputation , which would be best done by a tryal , and the sooner the better : if they have a mind to justifie themselves , this is the readiest course for it , and they may do it presently , by pleading not guilty ; my lord , i know i am in a great auditory , and abundance of your lordships time has been taken up already . i press it therefore for the sake of the king , and for the sake of my lords the bishops , we shall else have all ●…ang in suspence , and hang in the air for six months longer , therefore let the matter be put upon a fair issue , so as it may come to a speedy determination ; i am sure is these lords be innocent to day , they will be innocent to morrow , and if it were my own case , i would desire to have it tryed as speedily as i could , and therefore i pray they may plead immediately . mr. i. powel . mr. soll. what do you say to the difference that was taken between a person that was brought in custody at the first instance where there is no contempt to the process of the court , and one that comes in here by capias , upon default of appearing at the summons . mr. finch . my lord , if i apprehend them aright , they give us more than we did ask , for mr. sollicitor has laid it down as a rule , that if a man is taken upon a capias in a mean process , he shall have no imparlance . mr. soll. gen. no , you are greatly mistaken , sir , and i pray don't lay down rules for me . mr. finch . if i am sir , i beg your pardon , but this i am sure of , if a venire fac. goes out , which is in the nature of a subpoena , and the party appear to it , that being the first time he could come into court , you cannot force him to plead to an information , but he has an imparlance of course . mr. i. powell . methinks it seems very reasonable , that this forcing a man to plead presently should be only a punishment for a contempt of the court , and pray , were my lords the bishops in contempt to the court when they came here to day ? certainly they were not , for no man is in contempt , but he that being served with process , disobeys that process , and if my lords the bishops had been served with a subpoena and had not appeared , then there would have gone out a capias to bring them in , and so they would have come in upon a contempt , and then they would have come within the rule . mr. soll. gen. if you have a mind to it , you may ask sir samuel astry again . mr. att. gen. if they come in upon bail they ought to plead presently . mr. i. allybone . mr. finch i 'le tell you what sticks with me , truly you could not but be aware that this would be required of you ; for this very thing was in debate last term , and you know what rules the officer said was the course of the court , why did you not therefore come prepared with some presidents , to shew us what the course of the court is ? mr. att. gen. truly my lord , at this rate , we shall keep your lordship here all this afternoon , if these gentlemen will not be satisfyed with the rule of the court , and for an answer to what mr. justice powel says , if any ryotb●… committed in the countrey , and the parties are bound by recognizance to appear here , that is no process of this court , and so consequently there can be no contempt , and yet they must plead presently . mr. i. powell . there is a particular reason for that , because they are bound by recognizance , sir samuel astry and others say , that if they come in by recognizance they must plead presently . mr. soll. gen. but for the thing it self , ( that the people that hear us , may not imagine that this court puts a hardship upon my lords the bishops , more than is done in other cases ) it is best to keep the same rule as is in all other cases ; for when all is done , when justice goes with an equal current , without any regard to one person or other , then every body is safe , and all persons concerned do their duty ; so in this case , here be no presidents produced , wherein it has been otherwise , then can no person complain but that things go in this case , as they do in all other cases ; perhaps such a case ( as to the fact of it ) never hapned before , but for the law of it , that is plain , and the same as in all other cases ; for that there may be an information against my lords the bishops , as well as other people , if they make libels , sure it is no doubt at all ; and if an information lies against them for it , they are under the same rules as others are : but these gentlemen talk of being surprized , and that this is the first time they have heard of this information , but have we told any news in this information ? was not all that is contained in it , notoriously enough known before ? was not the kings first declaration very well known ? was not his second declaration very well known ? was not his order of councel for the reading of the declaration very well known ? is not your own petition a thing very well known to yourselves and all the world ? then these being the particular facts , of which this information is made up , and we only say you did do this fact , and we ask you , did you do it , or did you not ? can there be any great surprize in this ? my lord , i cannot see any thing that alters this from the common case , but only their being peers , and since this question has been heretofore under contest , these gentlemen have had time enough to have prepared precedents , to differ this from the common rule , if they could ; but since they cannot , we desire they may have the same rule , that is in all other cases , and then to be sure , all will go right . l. c. i. sir samuel astry , pray will you tell us , whether ever the court used to grant an imparlance where a person comes in in custody ; or did you ever know , when a person comes in upon a commitment , time was given him to plead ? mr. ser. pemberton . have you ever known it disputed and denyed ? sir s. astry . my lord , i have known that 't is in the discretion of the court to grant what time they please . l. c. i. is it the course of the court to give an imparlance ? sir s. astry . no , 't is the favour of the court ; and if the defendants have at any time shewed a reasonable cause , that they have special matter to plead , or any other cause allowed by the court , the court has sometimes indulged them so far , as to give them time . l. c. i. but how is the ordinary course sir samuel astry ? mr. i. allybone . ay , for as i said before , things done in particular cases in favour , are not precedents . sir s. astry . i have told your lordship the course is this , that any person that appears upon a recognizance . or is taken up by your lordships warrant , or by a warrant from a justice of peace , or any other way in custody , or any officer of the court , that is a priviledged person , and that must appear in propria personâ , must plead presently ; if the court upon particular reasons do not give him time ; and this i received information of , as the practice of the court , from mr. waterhouse , who had been a clerk in the office sixty years . mr. soll. gen. he said so before , but these gentlemen will never be contented , unless they have a new law made for them . mr. pollixfen . my lord , i would not unnecessarily trouble your lordship ; but truly , this is a case of great concern . and first of all , i think we shall all agree , that what has been used for ten or twelve years past will not make the course of the court , and next i perceive they do not bring any one instance for any proceeding of this sort above ten or twelve years old , but then ( say they ) on the other side , why do not you bring presidents , that it has gone otherwise hretofore ? my lord , that cannot be done , for it is a negative on our side , that this which they desire is not the course of the court ; but then ( as it is impossible ) to prove a negative , so the proofs should come on the other side , that this has been done : they ought to shew it , if there has been any such thing as a standing rule , or else , it shall be presumed an innovation , as being contrary to all reason ; but my lord , because they put it upon us , there is this proof on our side , as much as a negative can afford : in those proceedings , that were in the great case of the habeas corpus , there was an information against elliot and others , they had time given them to plead over and over , so that there is one precedent : and as many as these cases in former times as can be found , will show that this was always the course ; but pray ( say they ) produce us one instance , that ever there was a man that came in upon a recognizance , that had time to plead ; truly my lord , i cannot just now tell whether any such instance can be produced , but i verily believe there may be a great many , but i turn it upon them , and that with great reason , with submission to your lordship : shew me any man ( if you can ) above a dozen years ago , that had not time allowed him to plead ; ay but ( say they ) mr. waterhouse an ancient clerk of the crown office , that has been there these sixty years , hath certified that this hath been the practice of all his time : my lord , we that have been conversant in the business of this court , did all very well know mr. waterhouse when he was here , and sat in court in the place of sir samuel astry . sir s. astry , no , sir , it was in mr. harcourt's place . mr. pollixfen , well , he executed a place here , and 't is no matter whether he were master of the office or no ; but i think we all knew him very well , he was a man as lame in his business as could be , for there are some men that will never do business well , let them be never so long at it ; and he was as weak in the practice of the court , and every thing else , as 't is possible for one that has been bred in an office , can be ; and at this time he is grown so decreppit and superannuated , that you may as well depend upon the certificate of an old woman , as any thing that he shall say in such a matter as this ; he is now almost fourscore years of age , and has lost that little memory and understanding he had , but if his certificate must be depended upon , because of his standing in the office ; pray my lord ; let him come hither , and do you ask him what he has to say in this matter . mr. soll. gen. aye , that is very well indeed . mr. pollixfen , good mr. sollicitor spare us , certainly there needs not such great hast in this matter , we are upon a business of very great weight and concernment , for you are now making a law for the whole kingdom in point of practice , in cases of this nature . we do say , indeed , that by the reason of the heat and zeal of these last ten years , such a usage has been introduced , but sir samuel astry tells you , it was opposed , and i hope that neither i , nor th●… thing will be the worse thought of , because i opposed what i thought an unreasonable and new invention ; my lord , i know in the case of the city of london , we had time to plead a whole vacation after an imparlance , and were not at all hurried on , as the king's counsel would do in this case ; my lord , if they can produce any ancient president for it , i will say no more , but there is no case in print in any of our books that ever i read or can remember , that countenances such an opinion ; a man by this means may loose his just defence , and he has no remedy , nor will it over be in his power to retrieve it , for he may be brought on a suddain into court upon a warrant , and when he is here he shall be charged with an information , and presently he must plead not guilty , because he has not time to prepare a plea of any other nature , let him have never so much other special matter , or occasion for it ; if you please to let this matter be examined what the presidents are , and what age those precedents are , then perhaps your lordship will get some satisfaction ; but otherwise , if the bare certificate of the master of the office is to be a guide to the court , what is law , and what is not , we shall be in a very uncertain condition , especially when the matter comes in the very face of it , a great deal of unreasonableness and injustice . they on the other side will argue that is not more unreasonable then the practice in the case of treason , and fellony , where persons are compelled to plead instantly . but under favour , my lord , there is no comparison between this case and that , though i know it was always thought a hardship and defect in our law , that a person should be denied time to plead in case of life and death , except he can shew some special matter of law that he has to plead , and then he has always time allowed him to put it into form ; and i could never think there was any reason to be given for it , but because the common defence of fellons would be little shifts and arts , which would destroy proceedings , and make them tedious , and that would be an encouragement to people to commit fellony ; and beside there is a trust which the law reposes in the court in capital cases , to take care that these men should not suffer upon any little tricks in law ; but if you come below treason and fellony , the law puts no such hardship upon the defendant nor reposes such aspecial trust in the court ; but a man may plead any thing he has to plead ; and can any man plead before he sees what he is ●…o plead to ? and shall the law allow him council to prepare his plea , and not allow him time to consult with that council about it ? these are thing●… my lord , that truly , to me seems unreasonable : but as to the practice and course of the court , i pray your lordship to give order , that the precedents may be searched , that you may know what the ancient practice was . mr. finch . whether you will grant an imp●…ance now or no , yet i hope however , you will think ●…it to give my lords the bishops time to plead . lord chief iustice. but mr. finch , we have had a certificate from sir samuel astry , which truly weighs a great deal with me , he tells you the practice has been so ever since he came here , and ●…t mr. waterhouse ●…old him , that it had been so all his time , which is sixty years . mr. pollixfen . my lord , there are persons here that will upon their oaths declare , that mr. waterhouse has often told them the practice was otherwise ; even in his time , and afterwards a long time before this new wa●… of proceeding came in . mr. ince . my lord , if i might have liberty to speak , i can say mr. waterhouse has told me . lord chief iustice. pray be quiet mr. ince . mr. iustice allybone . but pray mr. pollixfen give me leave to mind you , how the evidence stands against you , the objections are , that this has been a practice but for twelve years last past ; if that be true . i think it goes a great way , for the practice of twelve years is president enough , prima facie , that such is the practice , for how shall we come to the knowledge of the practice , but from our officer sir samuel astry , who has been here examined ? and he tells you , that upon his coming into the office , when it could not be so doubtful as now ( it seems ) it is , he took instructions from mr. waterhouse ; i allow you 't is but his certificate , but that must go a great way with the court. sir ro. sawyer . such a practice as this has been always very rare in informations for misdemeanours ; and they bring you nothing of any president older then sir samuel astry's time . mr. finch . pray my lord , give me leave to very the question , i do not now make it a question , whether your lordships should grant my lords the bishops an imparlance , but whether you would think fit to look into the course of the court before that time , that sir samuel astry speak●… of , and take time to consider , and search into presidents . mr. i. allybone . do you mr. finch give us any one reason or president , that may make us doubt , whether this be the course of the court or no à and you could not but be aware of this before , and therefore should have come prepared to make out your objection . mr. finch . mr. pollixfen and the rest of the practicers in my lord hales's time will tell you , that the course was otherwise in his time ; sir samuel astry indeed tells you , it has been so since his time ; but this was one of the points ( it seems ) that he was ignorant of , which made him inquire of mr. waterhouse , so doubtful was this practice . sir samuel astry . i was an attender upon this court before i came into this office , but it was in another place on the other side of the court ; and therefore was not concerned so much to know what was the course on this side , till i came into this office. mr. sol. gen. these gentlemen differ among themselves , one would have an imparlance , the other only time to plead , i believe truly they cannot tell well what they would have , i pray the rules of the court may be kept to . sir sam. astry . here are two clerks that sit by me , that have been a long time in the office , mr. harcourt my secondary , and the clerk of the rules ; i pray they may be asked their knowledge of this matter . mr. soll. gen. certainly these gentlemen think they have a priviledge above all other people , that they must not be subject to the same rules , as others are , we on our 〈◊〉 have taken all the methods that we could to make this matter manifest , and what is it that these gentlemen now propose ? they pray you to take time to consider , but have they used the right means of creating a jealousie or suspicion in the court , that the course is otherwise , they can give no instance of it , and all they say is , 't is a negative , that this is not the course of the court , but the imparlance that they beg is in the affirmative , surely that they can find proof of , if it be so : as for my lord holly's case , that is with us , and not against us ; let mr. pollixfen shew that ever any one of the men that were brought into court in custody either had time to plead , or an imparlance . l. c. i. sir samuel astry says he has given you his opinion , and here are two other clerks of the office that he refers himself to , are you willing that they should be asked ? mr. ser. pemberton . yes my lord , with all our hearts . l. c. i. mr. harcourt , how long have you been a clerk in the crown-office ? mr. harcourt . about seventeen or eighteen years my lord. l. c. i. how long have you known the practice of the court in this matter , and what is it ? mr. harcourt . i cannot charge my self so with particulars from the time of my coming into the office , but for these ten or twelve years past ( i remember ) it has been as the king's council pressed , and as sir samuel astry has declared . l. c. i. what say you mr. sillyard , how long have you known the crown-office ? mr. sillyard . i have been a clerk here about thirty years . l. c. i. well , and how has the practice been all your time ? mr. sillyard . i have not sat here as clerk of the rules but a little while , but since i have sat here , i have always observed it to be the practice , that one that comes in custody should plead immediately , it was a thing heretofore that did not so often happen , asit hath done here of late , therefore i cannot so well speak to it ; but it hath fallen out frequently within some years last past , and that hath been the constant course . sir. samuel astry . when you first came to be attorney general , sir robert sawyer , i am sure it was so . mr. att. gen. pray let me ask you mr. sillyard , you say , you have known the office thirty years , when you first came to the office , were informatitions as frequent as they are now , and have been of late ? mr. sol. gen. it was so in the case of mr. hampden , when you were attorney general sir robert sawyer , he was forced to plead immediately to an indictment , for a crime that perhaps you will say was near upon treason . sir rob. sawyer . yes truly , it wanted but one witness , that was all . mr. sol. gen. but yet the indictment was only for a misdemeanour , and there we strugled and debated the matter , but were forced to give it over , because the course of the court was against us , so it has been by the unquestionable testimony of sir samuel astry for these twelve years last past , and in those twelve years we have had many changes , perhaps there may have been twelve chief justices ; and they have all affirmed it , and if i then make it out , that in all these judges times that are within our remembrance it has gone thus , then there are enough of precedents in the matter . sir rob. sawyer . but my lord , i desire to know , whether that were the ancient course mr. sollicitor ? mr. sol. gen. they that make the objection ought to prove it ; but i will name sir robert sawyer another case , and that is the case of sir samuel barnardiston , which was the case of a libel too , he was forced to plead immediately , and it cost him l. fine . l. c. i. well , gentlemen , have you done on either side ? mr. s. pemberton . if your lordship will please to give us time till to morrow morning , we will come hither by rule of court , and bring you some certificates and assidavits , or else some precedents that we hope will satisfie your lordship in this matter . l. c. i. no brother , we cannot do that , the question is what the course of the court is , we have had an account of that from sir samuel astry , for twelve years of his own knowledge , and from mr. waterhouse by him for sixty years ; but for mr. waterhouse they except against him , and say he was a person that was always lazy and did not fo●…well understand his business , and now is superannuated , that is said , but is but ●…is dictum , perhaps it may be so , perhaps not ; and they have offered to examine mr. ince about some opinion that he has had from this mr. waterhouse ; it may be he may have asked him some question that may lead to it , and he may have given some slight answer , but then here are these two persons mr. harcourt , and mr. sillyard , and the one has been a clerk these sixteen or seventeen years , and the other has known the office thirty years ; though there were not heretofore so many informations of this nature and kind as now of late , but still they say , that a person that comes in upon a commitment , or a recognizance , shall never have any imparlance . mr. sol. gen. can they give any one instance that has any the least shaddow to the contrary ? mr. pollixfen . my lord , if we had time , we hope we should be able to satisfie you in this matter . mr. sol. gen. you have had time enough to prepare your selves for this question , if you had thought you could do any good in it . l. c. i. would the course of the court be otherwise to morrow then it is to day , we have taken all the care we can to be satisfied in this matter , and we will take care that the lords the bishops shall have all justice done them , nay , they shall have all the favour by my consent that can be shewn them , without doing wrong to my master the king , but truly i cannot depart from the course of the court in this matter , if the king's council press it . mr. att. gen. my lord , we must pray your judgment in it , and your direction , that they may plead . l. c. i. truly i think they must plead to the information . mr. att. gen. sir samuel astry , pray ask my lords whether they be guilty , or not guilty . then his grace the lord archbishop of canterbury stood up , and offered a paper to the court. archbish. of cant. my lord , i tender here a short plea , ( a very short one , ) on behalf of my self and my brethren the other defendants ; and i humbly desire the court will admit of this plea. l. c. i. if it please your grace , it should have been in parchment . mr. sol. gen. what is that my lord offers to the court ? l. c. i. we will see what it is presently , mr. sollicitor . bish. of peter . i pray my lord , that the plea may be read. m. sol. gen. but not received . mr. att. gen. no , we desire to know what it is first ? sir rob. sawyer . mr. attorney , if they will plead , the court sure is obliged to receive it . l. c. i. if it is a plea your grace will stand by it ? l. archbish. of cant. we will all stand by it , my lord , it is subscribed by our council , and we pray it may be admitted by the court. mr. s. pemb. i hope the court will not deny to receive a special plea , if we offer one . l. c. i. brother , let us hear what it is ? mr. sol. gen. read it if you please , but not receive it . clerk reads the plea ; which in english is thus : the bishops plea . and the aforesaid william archbishop of canterbury , william bishop of st. asaph , francis bishop of ely , john bishop of chicester , thomas bishop of bath and wells , thomas bishop of peterburgh , and jonathan bishop of bristol , being present here in court in their own persons , pray oyer of the information aforesaid ; and it is read to them , which being read and heard by them the said archbishop , and bishops : the said archbishop and bishops say , that they are peers of this kingdom of england , and lords of parliament , and each of them is one of the peers of this kingdom of england , and a lord of the parliament , and that they being ( as before is manifest ) peers of this kingdom of england , and lords of parliament , ought not to be compelled to answer instantly for the misdemeanour aforesaid , mentioned in the said information exhibited here against them in this court ; but they ought to be required to appear by due process in law issuing out of this court h●…e upon the information aforesaid , and upon their appearance to have a copy of the said information exhibited against them , and reasonable time to imparl thereupon , and to advise with council learned in the law , concerning their defence in that behalf , before they be compelled to answer the said information ; whereupon , for that the said archbishop , and bishops were imprisoned , and by writ of our lord the king , of habeas corpus , directed to the lieutenant of the tower of london , are now brought here in custody , without any process upon the information aforesaid issued against them , and without having any copy of the said information , or any time given them to imparl , or be advised ; they pray judgment , and the priviledge of peers of this kingdom , in this case to be allowed them ; and that they the said archbishop , and bishops , may not be compelled instantly to answer the information aforesaid , &c. rob. sawyer . hen. finch . hen. pollixfen . mr. att. gen. my lord , with your lordship's favour , this in an ordinary person 's case , would perhaps be thought not fair dealing , or that which ( it being in the case of these reverend prelates ) i shall not now name ; to make all this debate and stir in a point of this nature , to take the judgment of the court after three or four hours arguing , and when the opinion of the court has been delivered , then to put in a plea to the jurisdiction of the court , — sir rob. sawyer , it is no such plea. mr. att. gen. it is so in effect , but certainly it is such an irregularity , and such an unfair way of proceeding , as would not be endured in an ordinary case , and i hope you will give so little countenance to it , as to reject it , and make them plead according to the usual course and way of proceedings ; certainly a plea of this nature , after so long an argument , would be reckoned nothing but a trick . mr. serj. pemb. we hope the court and you are not of one mind mr. attorney in this matter , we desire the court to receive the plea. mr. att. gen. with submission , the court is not bound to receive pleas , that are put in purely for delay , as this is ; for the judgment of the court has been already given in the very matter of this plea ; and for rejecting a plea , it is done every day , if a man puts in a mere trifling dilatory plea , the court may reject it ; does this plea contain any thing in it , but what has been argued and debated pro & con , and setled by the court already ? if they will put in any plea in chief they may , but such a plea as this , i hope shall not have so much countenance , as to be receiv'd by the court. mr. pollixfen . do you demur to it , if you please mr. attorney , we will joyn in demurrer with you . mr. att. gen. no , there will be no need of that : mr. sol. gen. surely the court will never give so much countenance to it , as to receive it . mr. finch . if you will please either to reply or demur mr. sollicitor , we are here to maintain the plea. mr. soll. gen. if you were here you would say the same thing that we do ; my lord , this plea is , that my lord the bishops are not bound to plead instantly ; so that 't is not a question , whether they ought to answer , or not to answer , but whether they ought to answer immediately , and what do they say more ? they would have an imparlance , and time to consult with their councel what they shall plead , which is all but one and the same thing ; and what is the reason they give for this ? they induce it thus , these noble persons are peers of the realm , and so ought not to be compelled to plead immediately ; this , if i mistake not , is the sum of their plea. now pray my lord , what sort of plea is this ? it is not a plea to the jurisdiction of the court , tho' it do in a sort decline the justice of the court ? is it a plea in abatement ? no , it is not , for it is only to gain time , and do they now offer any thing more for themselves , than what was said by their council before ? only , that we are peers of the realm , and that such is the priviledge of peers , that they ought to have an imparlance , and time to plead , and that they ought not to answer presently : my lord , this matter hath been long agitated in the court already , your lordship , and the court have given your judgments , and we know your lordship , and the court will not admit of tricks to delay the kings causes , we all know the term is a short term , and what i said in the beginning upon this matter , i say again , it is the interest , and for the honour of my lords the bishops ( if they understand their own interest , and value their honour ) to have this cause tryed as soon as may be ; but this trifling and tricking is only for delay : for what issue can be taken upon this plea ? certainly none ; and if we should demurr , what will be the end of that ? but only to get time to slip over the term. if there were any thing worth the considering in this plea , and that had not been already debated and setled , then it might concern us to give some answer to it ; but we have spent three hours ( by my watch ) in the dispute , and the matter having been over-ruled already , it is time to have an end of it ; sure the court will never be so treated by these persons , that are of councel for my lords the bishops , for it cannot be thought that my lords the bishops do it of themselves ; and whether the court will be so served , we submit to your lordship . certainly you will not receive such a plea as this , especially it being in paper , you will never countenance such a practice , so far as to give these lords time to trifle with the court ; if any such thing as a plea be tender'd to the court , it ought to be in parchment , and if they would have an imparlance , there ought to have been an entry of a petit licentiam inter loquendi upon the roll , but not such a plea as this , for this in effect is no more then desiring an imparlance , which if it be granted of course , upon such a prayer entred upon the roll , you take it of course ; but if it be not of course , you cannot come in by way of plea , it must be by suggestion upon the roll , and a conceditur entred , if this be admitted as a precedent , every man hereafter that comes in upon an information , will take advantage of it , and plead such a plea as this , and if you grant an imparlance in this case upon this plea , you must grant an imparlance in every case ; certainly the law is not to be altered , the methods of proceedings ought to be the same in every case : and i hope you will not make a particular rule in the case of my lords the bishops , without a special reason for it . mr. serj. pemb. we put in this plea , my lord , and are ready to abide by it , and we say , that according to the course of the court , it ought to be received . mr. att. gen. no , but good mr. serjeant , 't is in the discretion of the court , whether they will receive it or not , for the matter has been in debate already , and has receiv'd a determination , the court has over-ruled them in this very point already , and there is no more in this plea , than was in the argument before , and therefore it ought to be rejected as a frivolous plea. mr. soll. gen. here is a plea offered in writing , and in paper , the court sees what it is , and i hope you will give no countenance to it . mr. pollixfen , i do hope my lord , you will not judge this as a frivolous plea , i think our case is such , that you will not do that , if you think fit you may over-rule it , but i hope you will not refuse it . mr. soll. gen. the court will certainly reject a frivolous plea , and they may do it . mr. pollixfen , but mr. solliciter , i hope the court will consider of it , whether it be a frivolous plea or not , it is true , there has been a debate about the course of the court , and there has been an examination of the clerk of the office , and the court has gone upon his certificate , but yet still perhaps it may remain in doubt , and it being a question of such a consequence as this , it may very well deserve the court's consideration ; there never was a judicial settlement of it ( that i know of yet ) nor do i know any way of having it satisfactorily setled , but by the judgment of the court entred upon record ; here we offer a plea that contains the matter in debate , and this plea will appear upon record , and if upon consideration of the plea your lordship shall think fit to over-rule it , and be of opinion against the plea , then will you by your resolution in a judicial way , settle the question that has hitherto been in controversy . l. c. i. mr. pollixfen , i would ask you whether the council have dealt ingeniously with the court or no in this matter ; after four hours debate , and the opinion of the court delivered , to come and sum up all the arguments in such a plea as this , and so put us upon debating it over again . mr. pollixfen . my lord , certainly this has been done before , without offence , after we had moved for a thing which was denied upon motion , it is no such great dis-respect to the court ( with submission ) to put the same matter into a plea , for the judicial opinion of the court. sir ro. sawyer . that without all question has been done a great many times . mr. sol. gen. how many times have you been accused of playing tricks sir robert sawyer . sir rob. sawyer . not so many as you , mr. sollicitor . mr. sol. gen. i don't ask it as if i questioned it , for i assure you i don't doubt it of your part at all . l. c. i. pray gentlemen don't fall out with one another at the bar , we have had time enough spent already . mr. pollixfen . truly , my lord , i would not trick with the court in any case , nor on the other side would i be wanting to advise and do for my client , what i am able and lawfully may ; we have laboured all we could to get time for my lords the bishops to imparle to this information , and we have been the more earnest in it , because it concerns us , who attends this bar , to take what care we can , that the course of the court may be observed ; but as for this matter , we suppose this practice of the court is not in law a good practice ; now what way in the world has any man to bring this so in question , as to have a judicial resolution of the court about it , but by such a plea ? we take it , that it is usual and legal for us to have an imparlance , and a man would imparle , but the court upon motion refused to give him an imparlance ; is it not ( think you ) very fit for the party to have this judicially entered upon record ? where all this matter will appear , and the party may be relieved by writ of error , if the judgment of the court should be wrong ; but truly i cannot see how the court can refuse the plea , for if so be a plea be pleaded , they have their liberty to answer it on the other side by a replication , or else to demur , and the judgment of the court may be had upon it one way or other , but the court will never go about to hinder any man from pleading where he may plead by law ; here is a plea put in , and the court sure will take no notice what is the matter of the plea , till the other party have either replied or demurred ; the same thing may happen in any other plea that is pleaded , and the party will-be without remedy upon a writ of error , because the plea being rejected , there does nothing appear upon record ; truly for the court to reject and refuse this plea , would be as hard as the refusing of the imparlance , and we know no way we have to help our selves . mr. sol. gen. you might have entered your suggestion for an imparlance upon the roll , and then it would have appeared upon record , and if the court had unjustly denied it you , you would have had the benefit of that suggestion elsewhere : truly , my lord , i think if any thing be tricking , this is , for it is plainly ill pleading . mr. finch . then pray demur to it . mr. sol. gen. no sir , 't is fencing with the court , and that the court won't suffer , it is only to delay , and if we should demur , then there must be time for arguing ; and what is the question after all , but whether you would be of the same opinion to morrow , that you are to day . sir rob. sawyer . i would put mr. sollicitor in mind of fitz harris's case ▪ which he knows very well , he put it in a plea , and we for the king desired it might not be received , but the court gave him time to put it into form , and i was fain to joyn in demurrer presently , and so may these gentlemen do if they please . mr. soll. gen. yes sir robert sawyer , i do know the case of fitz harris very well , i was assigned of councel by the court for him , we were four of us , and there was a plea put in , but no such plea as this , there was an indictment of high treason against him , in which case it is agreed on all hands , that the party must answer presently , but because he suggested here at the bar , ( says he ) i have matter to plead to the jurisdiction of the court , and shewed what it was , i was impeached before the lords in parliament for treason , for the same matter of which i am here accused : the court did give him time to put this into form , and we were assigned his council to draw it up for him , and accordingly we did put that matter into a plea , that we were here indicted for one and the same treason , for which we were impeached in parliament , and that that impeachment was still depending , and so we rested in the judgment of the court , whether we should be put to answer it here ; this was a plea that carried something of weight in it , and not such a trifling one as this . it is true , sir robert sawyer who was then attorney general did press the court to over-rule it immediately , but it being a matter of some importance , the court would not do that , but had it argued solemnly by council on both sides , and at last there was the opinion of three judges against one that the plea was no good plea , but what is that to such a trifling plea as this ? mr. att. gen. pray my lord favour me a few words about that case of mr. fitz harris , it is true , there was a plea put in , and it is true also , that that which brought that plea to be argued , was the demurrer that was put in by sir robert sawyer , who was so zealous and hasty in the matter , that because the court did not presently over-rule the plea , as he desired , he immediately demurred , before the rest of the king's council could offer at any thing about it ; and thereupon it was put to the judgment of the court , and no doubt must be argued , and spoke to on both sides ; but where pleas are really in abuse of the court , the court never gives any countenance to them : nay , truly i have known another course taken , i am unwilling to mention a case that hapned much about that time too in this court , because of that regard i have to my lords the bishops , but sir robert sawyer remembers it very well , i am sure ; it was the case of one whitaker , who for a thing like this putting in a trifling plea , not only had his plea rejected , but something else was ordered , i could shew the precedent , but that i am more tender than to press it in this case , because there the court ordered an attachment to go against him , but i will put these gentlemen in mind of another case , and that is the case of a peer too , it is the case of my lord delameere , which they cannot but remember , it being in the highest case , a case of treason , when my lord delameere was arraigned and to be tryed for high treason , he put in a plea before my lord chancellor , who was then high steward , and sir robert sawyer who was then attorney general , prayed the lord steward , and the peers to reject it , and the court did reject it , ( as we hope the court will do this ) and would never so far delay justice as to admit of a plea that carried no colour in it , and there was no demurrer put into the plea , but it was absolutely refused : my lord , in this case we have had the judgment of the court already , and therefore we must now desire that this plea may be rejected . mr. soll. gen. my lord , we have now gone out of the way far enough already ; it is time for us to return , and bring the case into its due methods . we pray your lordship to reject this plea. sir rob. sawyer . my lord , we are in your judgment , whether you will receive this plea or not . l. c. i. you shall have my judgment presently ; but my brothers are to speak first . mr. i. allybone . mr. pollixfen makes it a question , whether this plea may be reiected or not , or whether it ought to be received , and the court give their judgment upon it . mr. iust. powell . truly i do not know whether the court can reject this , as 〈◊〉 frivolous plea. l. c. i. surely we may and frequently do . mr. att. gen. you do it every day , it 's a frequent motion ; if a frivolous plea be put in , before it be entred upon record as a plea , the court may refuse it , if they see cause . mr. i. allybone . truly if it may be , this appears to me a very frivolous plea. mr. iust. powell . i do not know how the court can reject any plea that the party will put in , if he will stand by it , as they say they will here ; and i cannot think this a frivolous plea , it concerning the priviledge of peers , and lords of parliament . mr. i. allybone . brother powell , i would be as tender of the priviledges of parliament , and speak with as much respect of the priviledges of the peerage , as any body else ; but for the matter of the plea , truly it appears to me , that the peers are named in it only for fashion safe , and it is frivolous . mr. iust. powell . the matter of the plea , except only their being said to be peers and lords of parliament , was spoke to before , but it was only obiter , and by way of motion ; but now it may come before us for our judicial determination . mr. i. allybone . pray let the plea be read again . ( which was done . ) mr. iust. allybone . this plea is no more but that which has been denied already upon solemn debate , and if it be in the power of the court to reject any plea , surely we ought to reject this . indeed i know not what power we have to reject a plea ; but if we have power , this ought to be rejected . mr. iust. powell . i declare my opinion , i am for receiving the plea , and considering of it . mr. iust. holloway . i think as this case is , this plea ought not to be received , but rejected , because 't is no more than what has been denied already . i am not ashamed to say , that i should be very glad and ready to do all things that are consistent with my duty , to shew respects to my lords the bishops , some of whom are my particular friends ; but i am upon my oath , and must go according to the course of law. l. c. i. we have asked and informed our selves from the bar , whether we may or can reject a plea , and truly what they have said , hath satisfied me that we may , if the plea be frivolous ; and this being a plea that contains no more than what has been over-ruled already , after hearing what could be said on both sides , i think the court is not bound to receive the plea , but may reject it , and my lords the bishops must plead over . mr. att. gen. we pray they may plead in chief . clerk. my lord archbishop of canterbury , is your grace guilty of the matter charged upon you in this information , or not guilty ? a. b. c. not guilty . clerk. my lord bishop of st. asaph , is your lordship guilty of the matter charged upon you in this information , or not guilty ? bish. of st. asaph . not guilty . clerk. my lord bishop of ely , is your lordship guilty of the matter charged upon you in this information , or not guilty ? bish. of ely. not guilty . clerk. my lord bishop of chichester , is your lordship guilty of the matter charged upon you in this information , or not guilty ? bish. of chichest . not guilty . clerk. my lord bishop of bath and wells , is your lordship guilty of the matter charged upon you in this information , or not guilty ? bish. of bath & wells . not guilty . clerk. my lord bishop of peterborough , is your lordship guilty of the matter charged upon you in this information , or not guilty ? bish. of peterborough . not guilty . clerk. my lord bishop of bristol , is your lordship guilty of the matter charged upon you in this information , or not guilty ? bish. of bristol . not guilty . mr. att. gen. my lord , i pray the clerk may joyn issue on the behalf of the king , that so we may come to tryal ; and we would have these gentlemen take notice , that we intend to try this cause on this day fortnight , and we pray liberty of the court , that we may try it at bar. l. c. i. are you not too hasty in that motion , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. my lord , we should indeed make it the motion of another day ; but we do now tell them this exabundanti , because my lords the bishops are now here , and will i suppose take notice that we do intend to move it another day . mr. soll. gen. we now give them notice , that we intend to move . sir rob. sawyer . for that you need not trouble your selves ; we are very desirous it should be tryed at bar , and that as soon as you please . mr. att. gen. well then you take notice it will be tryed this day fortnight . l. c. i. well , what shall we do with my lords the bishops ? mr. att. gen. they are baylable , no question of it , my lord , if they please . l. c. i. then , my lords , we are ready to bail you , if you please . sir rob. sawyer . we desire your lordship would be pleased to take their own recognizance . l. c. i. what say you , mr. attorney ? i think that may do well enough . mr. att. gen. my lord , with all my heart , we will do it . l. c. i. in what penalty shall we take it ? mr. att. gen. a . i think my lord his grace , and l. apiece the rest . sir rob. sawyer . what necessity is there for so much ? mr. att. gen. look you , sir robert sawyer , to shew you that we do insist upon nothing that shall look like hardship , what my lords have been pleased to offer , concerning taking their own recognizance , we agree to , and what sums the court pleases . mr. soll. gen. it is all one to us , we leave it wholly to the court. sir rob. sawyer . only i have one thing more to beg of your lordship on the behalf of my lords the bishops , that you will please to order , that in the return of the jury there may be forty eight returned . mr. att. gen. i tell you what we will do , sir samuel astry shall have the freeholders book , if you please , and shall return twenty four . sir rob. sawyer . eight and forty has been always the course , when the jury is returned by sir samuel astry . mr. soll. gen. my lord , i pray the officer may return the jury , according as is usual in cases of this nature . mr. att. gen. you do admit of a tryal at bar , gentlemen ? sir rob. sawyer . yes , and try it when you will. l. c. i. they say it shall be this day fortnight , and let there be a jury according to the usual course . sir rob. sawyer . we pray it may be in the presence of the attorneys or sollicitors on both sides . l. c. i. what is the usual co●…se , sir samuel astry ? do you use to return twenty four , or forty eight , and then strike out twelve a piece , which i perceive they desire for the defendants ? sir sam. astry . my lord , the course is both ways , and then it may be , as your lordship and the court will please to order it . l. c. i. then take forty eight , that is the fairest . mr. att. gen. we agree to it ; we desire nothing but a fair jury . sir rob. sawyer . nor we neither , try it when you will. l. c. i. take a recognizance of his grace my lord of canterbury in l. and the rest of my lords in l. a piece . mr. att. gen. what your lordship pleases for that , we submit to it . clerk. my lord of canterbury , your grace acknowledges to owe unto our soveraign lord the king , the sum of l. upon condition that your grace shall appear in this court on this day fortnight , and so from day to day , till you shall be discharged by the court , and not to depart without leave of the court. is your grace contented ? a. b. c. i do acknowledge it . clerk. my lord bishop of st. asaph , you acknowledge to owe unto our soveraign lord the king , the sum of l. upon condition that your lordship shall appear in this court on this day fortnight , and so from day to day , until you shall be discharged by the court , and not to depart without leave of the court. is your lordship contented ? bish. of st. asaph . i do acknowledge it . the like recognizances were taken of all the rest of the bishops , and then the court arose . de termino sanctae trinitatis , anno regni jacobi secandi regis , quarto , in banco regis . die veneris , vicesimo nono die junii , . in eod ' term. ( being the feast of st. peter and st. paul . ) dominus rex versus archiep. cantuar. & al. sir robert wright lord chief justice , mr. justice holloway , mr. justice powell , mr. justice allybone . judges . clerk. cryer , make proclamation thrice . cryer . oyes ! oyes ! oyes ! our sovereign lord the king streightly charges and commands every one to keep silence , upon pain of imprisonment . cl. of the cr. call the defendents . cryer . william lord archbishop of canterbury . archbish. here. cryer . william lord bishop of st. asaph . bish. st. asaph . here. ( and so the rest of the bishops were called , and answered severally . ) clerk. gardez votres challenges . — swear sir roger langley . cryer . take the book , sir roger. you shall well and truly try this issue between our sovereign lord the king , and william lord archbishop of canterbury , and others , according to your evidence . so help you god. the same oath was administred to all the jury , whose names follow , ( viz. ) sir roger langley , barr. sir william hill , knt. roger iennings , esq thomas harriot , esq ieoffery nightingale , esq william withers , esq william avery , esq thomas austin , esq nicholas grice , esq michael arnold , esq thomas done , esq richard shoreditch , esq clerk. you gentlemen of the jury who are sworn , hearken to the record ; sir thomas powis , knight , his majesty's attorney-general , has exhibited an information , which does set forth as followeth : ff . memorandum , that sir thomas powys , knt. attorney-general of our lord the king , who for our said lord the king in this behalf prosecutes , came here in his own person into the court of our said lord the king , before the king himself at westminster , on friday next after the morrow of the holy trinity in this term ; and , on the behalf of our said lord the king , giveth the court here to understand , and be informed , that our said lord the king , out of his signal clemency , and gracious intention towards his subjects of his kingdom of england , by his royal prerogative , on the fourth day of april , in the third year of the reign of our said lord the king , at westminster in the country of middlesex , did publish his royal declaration , entituled , his majesty's gracious declaration to all his loving subjects for liberty of conscience , bearing date the same day and year , sealed with the great seal of england ; in which declaration is contained , james r. pro●…t in the first declaration before recited . and the said attorney-general of our said lord the king , on behalf of our said lord the king , further giveth the court here to understand and be informed , that afterwards , to wit , on the twenty-seventh day of april , in the fourth year of the reign of our said lord the king , at westminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , our-said lord the king , out of his like clemency , and gracious intention towards his subjects of his kingdom of england , by his royal prerogative , did publish his other royal declaration , entituled , his majesty's gracious declaration , bearing date the same day and year last mentioned , sealed with his great seal of england ; in which declaration is contained , james r. our conduct has been such ; &c. prout in the second declaration before recited . which said royal declaration of our said lord the king last mentioned , our said lord the king afterwards , to wit , on the thirtieth day of april , in the fourth year of his reign aforesaid , at westminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , did cause to be printed and published throughout all england ; and for the more solemn declaring , notification , and manifestation of his royal grace , favour , and bounty towards all his leige-people , specified in the declaration last mentioned , afterwards , to wit , on the fourth day of may , in the fourth year of his reign , at westminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , our said lord the king in due manner did order as followeth : at the court at whitehall the fourth of may , . by the king 's most excellent majesty , and the lords of his majesty's most honourable privy-council . it is this day ordered by his majesty in council , that his majesties late gracious declaration bearing date the twenty seventh of april last , be read at the usual time of divine service upon the twentieth and twenty seventh of this month , in all churches and chappels within the cities of london and westminster , and ten miles thereabout : and upon the third and tenth of iune next in all other churches and chappels throughout this kingdom . and it is hereby further ordered , that the right reverend the bishops cause the said declaration to be sent and distributed throughout their several and respective diocesses , to be read accordingly . w m. bridgeman . and further , the said attorney-general of our said lord the king , on behalf of our said lord the king , giveth the court here to understand and be informed ; that after the making of the said order , to wit , on the eighteenth day of may , in the fourth year of the reign of our said lord the king , at westminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , william archbishop of canterbury , of lambeth in the county of surrey ; william bishop of st. asaph , of st. asaph in the county of flynt ; francis bishop of ely , of the parish of st. andrew holbourn in the county of middlesex ; iohn bishop of chichester , of chichester in the county of sussex ; thomas bishop of bath and wells , of the city of wells in the county of somerset ; thomas bishop of peterburgh , of the parish of st. andrew holbourn in the county of middlesex ; and ionathan bishop of bristol , of the city of bristol , did consult and conspire among themselves to diminish the regal authority & royal prerogative , power and government of our said lord the king in the premises , and to infringe and clude the said order ; and in prosecution and execution of the conspiracy aforesaid , they the said william archbishop of canterbury , william bishop of st. asaph , francis bishop of ely , iohn bishop of chichester , thomas bishop of bath and wells . thomas bishop of peterburgh , and ionathan bishop of bristol , on the said eighteenth day of may , in the fourth year of the reign of our said lord the king aforesaid , with force and arms , &c. at westminster aforesaid in the county of middlesex aforesaid , falsly , unlawfully , maliciously , seditiously , and scandalously , did frame , compose , and write , and caused to be framed , composed , and written , a certain false , feigned , malicious , pernicious , and seditious libel in writing , concerning our said lord the king , and his royal declaration and order aforesaid , ( under pretence of a petition ) and the same false , feigned , malicious , pernicious , and seditious libel , by them the aforesaid william archbishop of canterbury , william bishop of st. asaph , franois bishop of ely , iohn bishop of chichester , thomas bishop of bath and wells , thomas bishop of peterburgh , and ionathan bishop of bristol , with their own hands respectively being subscribed , on the day and year and in the place last mentioned , in the presence of our said lord the king , with force and arms , &c. did publish , and cause to be published ; in which said false , feigned , malicious , pernicious and seditious libel is contained , the humble petition , &c. prout before in the petition , to these words ; [ reasonable construction , ] in manifest contempt of our said lord the king , and of the laws of this kingdom , to the evil example of all others in the like case offending , and against the peace of our said lord the king , his crown & dignity , &c. whereupon the said attorney-general of our said lord the king , on behalf of our said lord the king , prays the advice of the court here in the premises , and due process of law to be made out against the aforesaid william archbishop of canterbury , william bishop of st. asaph , francis bishop of ely , iohn bishop of chichester , thomas bishop of bath and wells , thomas bishop of peterburgh , and ionathan bishop of bristol , in this behalf , to answer our said lord the king in and concerning the premises , &c. t. powys . w. williams . to this information the defendents have pleaded not guilty , and for their trial have put themselves upon their country , and his majesty's attorney-general likewise , which country you are : your charge is to enquire whether the defendents , or any of them , are guilty of the matter contained in this information that hath been read unto you , or not guilty : if you find them , or any of them , guilty , you are to say so ; and if you find them , or any of them , not guilty , you are to say so ; and hear your evidence . cryer , make proclamation . cryer . o yes ! if any one will give evidence on behalf of our sovereign lord the king against the defendents of the matters whereof they are impeached , let them come forth , and they shall be heard . mr. wright . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , this is an information exhibited by his majesty's attorney-general against the most reverend my lord archbishop of canterbury , and six other honourable and noble bishops in the information mentioned . and the information sets forth , that the king , out of his clemency and benign intention towards his subjects of this kingdom , did put forth his royal declaration , bearing date the fourth day of april in the third year of his reign , entituled , his majesty's gracious declaration to all his loving subjects for liberty of conscience ; and that afterwards , the twenty-seventh of april , in the fourth year of his reign , he published another declaration , both which have been read to you ; and for the further manifestation and notification of his grace in the said declaration bearing date the twenty-seventh of april last , his majesty did order , that the said declaration should be read on the twentieth and twenty-seventh of the same month in the cities of london and westminster and ten miles about , and on the third and tenth of iune throughout the whole kingdom ; and that the right reverend the bishops should send the said declaration to be distributed throughout their respective diocesses , to be read accordingly . but that the said archbishop and bishops the eighteenth of may , in the said fourth year of his said majesty's reign , having conspired and consulted among themselves to diminish the king's power and prerogative , did falsly , unlawfully , maliciously , and scandalously , make , compose , and write , a false , scandalous , malicious , and seditious libel , under pretence of a petition ; which libel they did publish in the presence of the said king ; the contents of which libel you have likewise heard read . to this they have pleaded not guilty : you , gentlemen , are judges of the fact ; if we prove this fact , you are to find them guilty . mr. at. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , your have heard this information read by the clerk , and it has been likewise opened to you at the barr , but before we go to our evidence , perhaps it may not be amiss for us , that are of council for the king , now in the beginning of this cause , to settle the question right before you , as well to tell you what my lords the bishops are not prosecuted for , as what they are ; first , i am to tell you , and i believe you cannot your selves but observe , that my lords are not prosecuted as bishops , not much less are they prosecuted for any point or matter of religion , but they are prosecuted as subjects of this kingdom , and only for a temporal crime , as those that have injured and affronted the king to his very face ; for it is 〈◊〉 to be done in his own presence : in the next place , they are not prosecuted for any no●…easance , or not doing or omitting to do any thing , but as they are actors , for ce●…ring of his majesty and his government , and for giving their opinion in matters wholly relating to law and government ; and i cannot omit here to take notice , that there is not any one thing , which the law is more iealous of , or does more carefully provide for the prevention and punishment of , than all accusations and arra●…ents of the government ; no man is allowed to accuse even the most inferior magistate of any misbehaviour in his office , unless it be in a legal course , though the fact is true ; no man may say of a justice of peace to his face , that he is unjust in his office ; no man may come to a judge , either by word or petition , you have given an unjust , or an ill judgment , and i will not obey it , it is against the rules and law of the kingdom , or the like ; no man may say of the great men of the nation , much less of the great officers of the kingdom , that they do act unreasonably or unjustly , or the like ; least of all may any man say any such thing of the king , for these matters tend to possess the people , that the government is ill administred , and the consequence of that is , to set them upon desiring a reformation , and what that tends to , and will end in , we have all had a sad and too dear bought experience ; the last age will abundantly satisfie us , whither such a thing does tend : men are to take their proper remedies for redress of any grievances they lye under , and the law has provided sufficiently for that : these things are so very well known to all men of the law , and indeed to all the people of england of any understanding , that i need not , nor will not , stand any longer upon it , but come to the matter that is now before you gentlemen , to be tryed . the fact that we have laid , we must prove , rather to keep to the formality of a tryal , than to pretend to inform you , or tell you what you do not know , it is all publickly notorious to the whole world ; but because we must go on in the regular methods of law , we shall prove the facts in the order they are laid in the information . first , we take notice , that his majesty , of his great clemency and goodness to his people , and out of his desire that all his subjects might live easily under him ( of which i think never prince gave greater or more plain evidence of his intentions that way ) the fourth of april , . he did issue forth his royal declaration for liberty of conscience ; this matter , without all question , was welcome to all his people that stood in need of it , and those that did not , could not but say , the thing in the nature of it was very just , and gracious ; but presently it must be surmised , that the king was not in earnest , and would or , nor could not make good his promise ; but to take away all surmises , his majesty was pleased by his declaration of the twenty seventh of april last , not only to repeat his former declaration , but likewise to renew his former promises to his people , and to assure them that he still was , and yet is , of the same opinion , that he had at first declared himself to be of ; nay , we further shew you , that to the end that this thing might be known to all his people , even to the meanest men , who it may be were not willing or able to buy the declaration , and that the king himself might be under higher obligations , if it were possible , than his own word , he was desirous it should be repeated in the churches , and read in that sacred place , that all his people might hear what he had promised , and given his own sacred word for ; and he himself might be under that solemn tye and obligation to keep his word , by remembring that his promises had , by his own command , been published in the time of divine service , in the house of god ; and thereupon was the order of council made , that has been likewise read to you , which does direct , that it should be read in all the churches and chappels in the kingdom ; and you have heard , and we shall prove , what a return his majesty has had for this grace and kindness of his ; you 'l find when we come to read that which they call a petition , all their thanks his majesty had for his favour and goodness to his people , 't is only hard words , and a heavy accusation , such as a private person would be little able to bear , i will not aggravate the matter , but only say thus much , that his majesty , who was always a prince of as great clemency as ever this kingdom had , and who was represented for all that , as a prince of the greatest cruelty before his accession to the crown , by his enemies , is now accused by his friends for this effect of his mercy ; my lord , and gentlemen of the jury , his majesty resented this ill usage so far , that he has ordered and thought fit to have a publick vindication of his honour in this matter , by this tryal ; and we shall go on to our proofs , and we do not doubt but you will do his majesty ( as you do all other persons ) right . mr. sol. gen. my lord , we will go on to prove the parts of this information , and we will proceed according to the method which mr. attorney has opened , and which is pursuant to the order of the facts laid in the information . give us the first declaration under the great seal , the declaration of the th . of april , . the declaration was delivered into the court. mr. sol. gen. read the date of it first . clerk reads . given at our court at whitehall , the th . day of april , , and in the third year of our reign . mr. sol. gen. read the title of it , sir. clerk. it is entituled , his majesties gracious declaration to all his loving subjects for liberty of conscience . sir rob. sawyer . is it under seal ? is the great seal to it ? mr. sol. gen. give it down to sir robert sawyer , that he may see it , for i would have every thing as clear as possible . — sir robert sawyer , will you have it read ? sir rob. sawyer . no , we would save as much of the time of the court , as may be . mr. sol. gen. then pray put in the second declaration of the th . of april last . clerk reads . given at our court at whitehall , the th . day of april , . in the fourth year of our reign , and it is entituled , his majesties gracious declaration . sir rob. sawyer . is that under the great seal too ? clerk. yes it is mr. sol. gen. deliver that down likewise , that they may see it . sir rob. sawyer . we are satisfied , you need not read it . mr. sol. gen. then where is the order of council for the reading of it ? mr. at. gen. swear sir iohn nicholas . — [ there he is . sir iohn nicholas sworn . lord ch. iust. come , mr. attorney , what do you ask sir iohn nicholas ? mr. sol. gen. hand the order to sir iohn nicholas . — is that the order of council , sir iohn ? sir john nicholas . the book , sir , is not in my custody — there is the register that keeps it , he has it here to produce . mr. sol. gen. swear mr. gantlett . mr. gantlett sworn . mr. sol. gen. is that the council book ? mr. gantlett . yes , this is the council book . mr. sol. gen. then turn to the order of the fourth of may , the king's order of council , for the reading the declaration . mr. gantl●… . there it is , sir. the book delivered into court. mr. sol. gen. read it i pray . clerk reads . at the court at whitehall , the fourth of may , . — and so reads the order of council . mr. sol. gen. my lord , we have one thing that is mentioned in the information , that this declaration was printed ; if that be denied , we will call henry hills , his majesties printer , because we would prove all our information as it is laid . lord ch. iust. you must do so , mr. sollicitor you must prove the whole declaration . mr. sol. gen. cryer , call henry hills . he was called , but did not presently appear . mr. sol. gen. call mr. bridgman — though these declarations prove themselves , we have them here printed — but swear mr. bridgeman . mr. bridgeman sworn . mr. sol. gen. shew mr. bridgeman the two declarations . lord ch. iust. what do you ask him ? mr. sol. gen. we ask you , sir , if the two declarations were printed . mr. bridgeman . what declarations do you mean , mr. solliitor ? mr. sol. gen. you know what declarations i mean , well enough , but we●…l ask you particularly ; you know the declaration that was made the th . of april , in the third year of the king. — was it printed ? mr. bridgeman . yes , it was printed by the king's order . mr. sol. gen. was that of the th . of april , in the th . year of the king printed ? mr. bridgman . yes , they were both printed by the king's order . mr. at. gen. then the next thing in course , is the bishops paper . sir rob. sawyer . mr. bridgeman , pray let me ask you one question ; did you ever compare the print with that under seal ? mr. bridgeman . i did not compare them , sir robert sawyer . mr. sol. gen. he does swear they were printed by the king's order . sir robert sawyer . good mr. sollicitor give me leave to ask him a question — can you swear then that they are the same ? mr. bridgman , i was not asked that question , sir. mr. sol. gen. come then , mr. bridgeman , i 'le ask you . — do you believe they are the same ? sir rob. sawyer . is that an answer to my question ? mr. sol. gen. we must ask him questions as well as you , sir robert — what say you ? do you believe it to be the same ? lord ch. iust. you hear mr. sollicitors question , answer it mr. bridgeman . mr. bridgeman . yes my lord , i do believe it . lord ch. iust. well , that 's enough . mr. at. gen. if there were occasion , we have them here compared , and they are the same . sir rob. sawyer . with submission , my lord , in all these cases , if they will prove any fact that is laid in an information , they must prove it by those that know it of their own knowledge . — do you know it to be the same ? mr. sol. gen. that 's very well , sir. sir rob. s●…yer . ay , so it is , mr. sollicitor , it is a wonderful thing , my lord , that we cannot be permitted to ask a question . — do you know it to be the same , mr. bridgeman , i ask you again ? mr. bridgeman . i have not compared them i tell you , sir robert sawyer . sir rob. sawyer . then that is no proof . lord ch. iust. would you have a man swear above his belief , he tells you he believes it is the same . sir rob. sawyer . is that proof of an information ? lord ch. iust. well , you 'l have your time to make your objections by and by . mr. at. gen. then swear sir iohn nicholas . sir iohn nicholas . i am sworn already . mr. at. gen. i see you have a paper in your hand , sir iohn nicholas , pray who had you that paper from ? sir iohn nicholas . i will give you an account of it , as well as i can . mr. pollixfen . before they go to another thing , my lord , we think they have failed in their proof of their information , about the printing this declaration . mr. at. gen. where is mr. hills . mr. iust. allyb. they have laid , that it was printed by the king's order ; and it is such a matter , mr. sollicitor , as you may clear , if you will , sure . mr. sol. gen. there is mr. hills , now i see him . l. c. iust. i was going to give order that you should send to the printing-house for him . mr. iust. allyb. they may put this matter out of doubt too , if they will , on the other side ; for i see they have a copy in print , and there 's the original , they may compare them if they please . mr. sol. gen. i am very glad to hear such a strong objection . sir rob. sawyer . we would clear the way for you , mr. sollicitor . mr. sol. gen. no , you put straws in our way ; we shall be able enough to clear it without your help . swear mr. hills and young mr. graham here . hills and graham sworn . mr. sol. gen. mr. graham , did you compare any of these printed declarations with the original ? graham . yes , i did compare some of them , and did make amendments as i went along . mr. sol. gen. 〈◊〉 one that you have compar'd with the original . mr. att. gen. hills is here himself , we 'll ask him . are you sworn , sir ? cryer . he is sworn . mr. att. gen. pray were the king's declarations for liberty of conscience printed both of them ? hills . ay , an 't please you , sir. mr. att. gen. you printed them , i think . hills . yes , i did print them . sir rob. sawyer . mr. hills , you say they were printed : upon your oath , after they were printed , did you examin them with the original under seal ? hills . they were examined before they were printed . sir rob. sawyer . did you examin them ? hills . i did not , here 's one that did . mr. sol. gen. who is that ? hills . it is mr. williams here . mr. sol. gen. swear him . williams sworn . mr. sol. gen. do you hear , williams ? do you know that the king's declaration for liberty of conscience , two of them , one of the th of april , and the other of the th of april , were printed ? williams . yes , my lord. mr. sol. gen. did you examin them after they were printed , by the copy they were printed by ? williams . yes , i did . mr. sol. gen. where had you the copy ; who had you it from ? williams . i had it from mr. hills . sir rob. sawyer . mr. williams , did you examin them with the original under the great seal ? williams . the first declaration i did . sir rob. sawyer . the second declaration is the main . williams . the second was compos'd by the first . sir rob. sawyer . why , is there no more in the second declaration than there was in the first ? williams . yes , there is , sir. sir rob. sawyer . did you examin that with the original under the great seal ? williams . no , i did not . mr. sol. gen. can any one tell who did examin it under the great seal ? mr. finch . pray what did you examin it by , mr. williams ? williams . by a copy that i receiv'd from mr. hills . mr. att. gen. then we will go on ; and we desire sir iohn nicholas to give an account where he had that paper that he has in his hand . mr. finch . my lord , it does not appear that the copy that was printed is the true copy of the declaration . mr. att. gen. he says he had it from mr. hills . mr. finch . pray , mr. hills , what did you examin that copy by , which you gave to mr. williams ? hills . i had the copy from mr. bridgeman . mr. finch . did you examin it with the original under the great seal ? hills . i did not examin it , i had it from mr. bridgeman . mr. finch . what , was it under seal ? mr. bridgeman . it was the original signed by the king. mr. finch . but i ask you , was it under seal ? mr. bridgeman . not under the great seal it was not , it was the very declaration the king signed . sir rob. sawyer . but it ought to be compar'd with the original , or it is no good proof that it is the same . mr. sol. gen. sir robert sawyer , you understand collation better sure , you should be asham'd of such a weak objection as this . williams . we never bring our proof to the great seal . sir rob. sawyer . but if you will have it proof at law , you must have it compared with the original . mr. sol. gen. do you think there is any great stress to be laid upon that ? we only say it was printed . sir rob. sawyer . but you have made it part of your information , and therefore you must prove it . l. c. iust. i think there 's proof enough of that ; there need no such nicety . mr. pollixfen . well , my lord , we must submit , let them go on , we won't stand upon this . mr. att. gen. then pray let me go on . where had you that paper , sir iohn nicholas ? sir iohn nicholas . i had this paper from the king's hand . l. c. iust. put it in . mr. sol. gen. who had you it from , do you say ? sir i. nich. from the king. mr. sol. gen. about what time had you it from the king , sir ? sir i. nich. i had it twice from the king. mr. sol. gen. when was the first time , sir ? sir i. nich. the first time was in council the th of this month . mr. sol. gen. what became of it afterwards ? sir i. nich. the king had it from me the th , and the th i had it from the king again . mr. sol. gen. pray deliver it this way into the court : we will now go on , and prove the bishops hands to it . this is the paper upon which we bring this information , gentlemen ; it is all the hand-writing of my lord archbishop , and signed by him and the rest of the bishops . mr. att. gen. i suppose my lords the bishops will not put us to prove it , they will own their hands . l. c. iust. yes , mr. attorney , their council will put you to prove it ; i perceive your best way is to ask nothing of them . mr. att. gen. my lord , we will desire nothing of them , we will go on to our proofs . call sir thomas exton , sir richard raynes , mr. brooks , mr. recorder , and mr. william middleton . sir thomas exton appeared , and was sworn . l. c. iust. what do you ask sir thomas exton ? mr. att. gen. pray convey that paper to sir thomas exton . mr. sol. gen. shew that paper to sir thomas exton . — sir thomas , i would ask you one question : do you know the hand-writing of my lord archbishop of canterbury ? sir thomas exton . i 'll give your lordship what account i can . mr. sol. gen. pray , sir , answer my question ; do you know his hand-writing ? sir tho. exton . i never saw him write five times in my life . mr. sol. gen. but i ask you , upon your oath , do you believe that to be his hand-writing ? sir tho. exton . i do believe this may be of his hand-writing . mr. sol. gen. do you believe all the body of it to be of his hand-writing , or only part of it ? sir tho. exton . i must believe it to be so , for i have seen some of his hand-writing , and this is very like it . mr. sol. gen. what say you to the name ? do you believe it to be his hand-writing ? sir tho. exton . yes , i do . mr. sol. gen. do you know any of the rest of the names that are upon that paper ? sir tho. exton . no , i do not . l. c. iust. do you for the defendants ask sir tho. exton any question ? sir rob. sawyer . no , my lord. mr. att. gen. then call sir richard raynes . sir tho. exton . my lord , sir richard raynes has been sick this month , and has not been at the commons . mr. sol. gen. we have no need of him . call mr. brooks . mr. brooks sworn . mr. att. gen. pray shew mr. brooks that paper . mr. sol. gen. mr. brooks , i ask you this question , do you know my lord archbishop's hand-writing ? mr. brooks . yes , my lord. mr. att. gen. pray look upon that paper ; do you take that to be my lord archbishop's hand ? mr. brooks . yes , my lord , i do believe it to be my lord archbishop's hand ? mr. att. gen. what say you to the whole body of the paper ? mr. brooks . i do believe it to be his hand . mr. att. gen. what do you say to his name there ? mr. brooks . i do believe this name is his hand-writing . mr. sol. gen. call mr. william middleton . mr. att. gen. pray mr. brooks don't go away , but look upon the names of the bishop of st. asaph , and my lord of ely. mr. sol. gen. do you know my lord bishop of st. asaph's hand-writing ? mr. brooks . i have seen my lord archbishop of canterbury and the bishop of st. asaph's hand-writing , and i do believe this is his hand . mr. sol. gen. look you upon the name of my lord of ely ; do you know his hand-writing ? mr. brooks . my lord , i am not so well acquainted with my lord of ely's writing . mr. sol. gen. but have you seen his writing ? mr. brooks . yes , i have . mr. sol. gen. is that his writing do you think ? mr. brooks it is like it . mr. sol. gen. do you believe it to be his hand ? mr. brooks . truly i do believe it . sir geo. treby . did you ever see him write ? mr. brooks . no , sir. mr. sol. gen. but he has seen his writing . sir geo. treby . how do you know that it was his hand-writing that you saw ? mr. brooks . because he own'd it . l. c. iust. how do you know it , do you say ? mr. brooks . i know it , i say , because i have seen a letter that he writ to another person , which he afterwards own'd . l. c. iust. what did he own , mr. brooks ? mr. brooks . that he wrote a letter to another person , which i saw . sir geo. treby . to whom , sir ? sir rob. sawyer . have you the letter here , sir ? mr. brooks . no , sir , the letter was writ to my lord bishop of oxford . sir geo. treby . can you tell what was in that letter ? mr. att. gen. what is that to this question ? you ask him , how he knows his hand-writing : and , says he , i did not see him write , but i have seen a letter of his to the lord bishop of oxford . l. c. iust. and he does say , my lord of ely own'd it to be his hand that is there . mr. sol. gen. no , my lord , that 's a mistake , he own'd a letter that he had writ to the bishop of oxford to be his hand-writing , and by comparison of this with that ( says he ) i take this to be his hand-writing . mr. brooks . that is my meaning , my lord. mr. sol. gen. pray speak out , and tell us what are the reasons that makes you say you believe this to be the bishop of ely's writing ? mr. brooks . because it resembles a letter that i have by me of his writing to the bishop of oxford . mr. sol. gen. and you say he own'd that letter to be his ? mr. brooks . my lord bishop of oxford did answer it , and i waited upon the bishop of ely with the answer , and he did own it . sir geo. treby . how did he own it , sir ? mr. brooks . i had some communication with my lord of ely about the substance of that letter , and therefore i apprehended he own'd it . mr. iust. powell . that 's a strange inference , mr. sollicitor , to prove a man's hand . mr. att. gen. we have more evidence ; but let this go as far as it can . mr. serj. pemberton . certainly , my lord , you will never suffer such a witness as this . l. c. iust. brother pemberton , i suppose they can prove it otherwise , or else this is not evidence . mr. iust. powell . so they had need , for it is a strange inference of mr. sollicitor , that this is a proof of my lord of ely's hand-writing . mr. iust. holloway . the bishop of oxon was dead before any of this matter came in agitation . mr. sol. gen. my lord , we will bring other proofs . — call mr. chetwood & mr. smith . mr. chetwood and mr. smith sworn . mr. sol. gen. mr. chetwood , we would know of you if you know my lord bishop of ely's hand-writing ? mr. chetwood . i never saw him write . mr. sol. gen. that 's not an answer to my question : do you know his hand-writing ? mr. chetwood . i do not certainly know it . mr. sol. gen. have you seen any of it ? mr. chetwood i have seen my lord of ely's writing , that has been said to be his . l. c. iust. but surely you had better take a witness that has seen him write . mr. iust. powell . i think 't is hardly possible for a man to prove his hand , that has not seen him write . l. c. iust. i think 't is better proof , indeed , to bring some that has seen him write . mr. chetwood . my lord , 't is a long time since i saw my lord of ely's writing . l. c. iust. pray bring some other proof , if you have it . bp. of peterburgh . my lord , we are here as criminals before your lordship , and we are prosecuted with great zeal : i beg your lordship that you will not be of councel against us , to direct 'em what evidence they shall give . l. c. iust. my lord of peterburgh , i hope i have not behaved my self any otherwise hitherto than as becomes me : i was saying this ( and i think i said it for your lordships advantage ) that this was not sufficient proof ; and i think , if your lordship observed what i said , it was for you , and not against you . bp. of peterb . it was to direct them against us , how they should give evidence . mr. serj. pemberton . pray , my lord of peterburgh , sit down , you 'll have no wrong done you . sir. rob. sawyer . we that are of council will take care of that ; and pray , my lord , will you please to pass it by . l. c. iust. we are not used to be so serv'd , and i will not be used so . mr. sol. gen. if your lordship pleases to pass that by , for what your lordship said was in favour of my lords the bishops , but i see they do not take it so . mr. att. gen. pray , mr. chetwood , do you look upon the name of my lord of ely ; do you believe that to be his hand-writing ? mr. chetwood . i do believe it is . sir rob. sawyer . that 's very well , when he says he never saw him write . mr. iust. powell . what is the reason of that belief of his , i would feign know ? mr. chetwood . i have formerly seen his hand , i think it was his ; but i never saw lord of ely write his hand . sir rob. sawyer . then the question is , whether this be evidence ? mr. finch . how do you know that that which you saw formerly was my lord of ely's hand ? mr. chetwood . i have no such certainty , as positively to swear that that was his hand . mr. sol. gen. we will go on to other proofs ; and if we want better evidence at the end , we will argue with them . mr. chetwood . i am not certain that what i saw was my lord of ely's hand-writing , because i never saw him write . mr. sol. gen. you do very well to shew your good affection . mr. att. gen. mr. smith , i would ask you this question , do you know my lord of ely's hand-writing ? mr. smith . i have seen it often . mr. att. gen. look upon the name of my lord of ely in that paper ; do you believe it to be my lord's hand-writing , or no ? mr. smith . i did not see him write it , sir ; i can not tell whether it is or no. l. c. iust. did you ever see his name ? mr. smith . yes , but it was a great while ago , and here are but seven letters , and i cannot judge by that : i was better acquainted with his hand-writing heretofore . mr. sol. gen. pray , sir , answer me ; do you believe it to be his writing , or do you not ? mr. smith . i believe it may , for i did not see him write it . mr. sol. gen. but my question is , do you believe it , or do you not ? mr. smith . i say , i was better acquainted with it heretofore than i am now . mr. sol. gen. but pray answer my question : do you believe that to be my lord of ely's hand-writing , or do you not ? mr. smith . i believe it may , sir. sir rob. sawyer . why do you believe it ? mr. smith . i have no other reason to believe it , but because i have seen something like it . mr. iust. powell . how long ago is it since you saw him write ? mr. smith . i have not seen him write , so as to take notice of it , for some years : i could better judge of it when he writ his name turner , than now it is ely , because there was more letters to judge by . mr. middleton sworn . l. c. iust. here 's mr. middleton ; what do you call him for ? mr. sol. gen. to prove many of their hands . mr. att. gen. pray shew him that paper . mr. sol. gen. first , mr. middleton , do you know my lord archbishop's hand-writing ? mr. middleton . i have seen his grace's hand-writing . mr. sol. gen. do you believe it to he his ? mr. middleton , it is very like it . mr. sol. gen. but do you believe it , or do you not ? mr. middleton . i do believe it . mr. sol. gen. do you know my lord bishop of st. asaph's hand-writing ? mr. middleton . i never saw it as i know of . mr. sol. gen. what do you say to my lord of ely ? his name is next . mr. middleton . it is like his lordship's hand . mr. sol. gen. do you believe it , or do you not ? mr. middleton . it is like it , that 's all i can say . mr. sol. gen. cannot you tell whether you believe it , or not believe it ? mr. middleton . i do believe it is his hand . mr. sol. gen. did you ever see him write ? for i would clear this matter beyond exception . mr. middleton . i have seen his lordship write , but i never stood by him so near as to see him make his letters . mr. sol. gen. is that his hand-writing ? mr. middleton . it is like it , i believe it is his . mr. sol. gen. you did not guide his hand i believe — do you know my lord of chichester's hand-writing ? mr. middleton . sir , i am acquainted with none of their hands but with my lord of canterbury's and my lord of ely's . mr. sol. gen. do you know my lord of peterburgh's hand-writing ? mr. middleton . i had my lord of peterburgh's writing two years ago for some money , but i cannot say this is his . mr. sol. gen. do you believe it to be his ? mr. middleton . i never took notice of it so much , as to say , i believe it to be like it , i never saw it but once . mr. sol. gen. do you know any other of the names there ? what say you to the bishop of bristol's name ? mr. middleton . i saw once my lord of bristol's hand-writing . mr. sol. gen. what say you to that writing there ? mr. middleton . it is like it . mr. sol. gen. do you believe it to be his or no ? mr. middleton . truly , that i cannot say , for i never saw it but once . lord ch. iust. you never saw him write , did you ? mr. middleton . no , my lord , i never did . mr. sol. gen. then we will call sir thomas pinfold , and mr. clavel — sir thomas pinfold is there , swear him . sir thomas pinfold sworn . mr. sol. gen. sir thomas pinfold , do you know my lord bishop of peterburgh's hand-writing ? sir thomas pinfold . truly , not very well , i never saw but one letter from him in my life ; shew me his hand , and i will tell you — which was done . mr. sol. gen. well sir , what say you to it ? sir tho. pinfold . then upon my oath i say , i cannot well tell upon my own knowledge that it is his hand . mr. sol. gen. i ask you , do you believe it to be his hand ? sir tho. pinfold . sir , upon the oath that i have taken i will answer you , that upon this account , that i have heard there was a paper delivered by my lords the bishops to the king , and this paper that you offer me , i suppose to be the same , upon that score i do believe it , but upon any other score i cannot tell what to say . mr. sol. gen , i ask you upon your oath , sir , do you believe it is his hand-writing or no ? sir tho. pinfold . sir , i have answered you already , that upon my own knowledge i cannot say it is his hand-writing ; but because i have heard of such a paper , i do believe it may be his . lord ch. iust. did you ever see my lord bishop write ? sir tho. pinfold . i have been in his chamber several times when he has been writing , but i had more manners than to look upon what he writ . lord ch. iust. did you never see him write his name ? sir tho. pinfold . i do not know that i ever saw him write his name , but i have seen him writing i say , and so my lord bishop may have seen me writing ; but i believe he does not know my hand . mr. sol. gen. you have seen him write you say . sir tho. pinfold . i tell you mr. sollicitor , i have been in his chamber when he has been writing , but i had more manners than to look over him . mr. iust. powel . then you did never see any of that writing . sir tho. pinfold . i cannot say i did , my lord. mr. att. gen. pray did you never see any of his writing but that letter you speak of . sir tho. pinfold . no , not that i remember . mr. iust. powel . mr. sollicitor , you must call other witnesses , for this does not prove any thing . mr. at. gen. we will go on — swear mr. clavel . mr. clavel sworn . mr sol. gen. do you know my lord bishop of peterburgh's hand-writing or no ? mr. clavel . i have seen it many times . mr. sol. gen. do you know it when you see it ? mr. clavel . i believe i do , sir. mr. sol. gen. pray look upon that paper , and upon your oath tell us , do you believe that name to be his writing , or no ? mr. clavel . i do believe it is , my lord. mr. at. gen. pray look upon the rest of the hands there , do you know any of the other names ? mr. clavel . no , i do not . mr. att. gen. have you ever seen any of their writing ? mr. clavell . it is probable i may have seen some , but do not now remember it . mr. sol. gen. i think you are a bookseller , mr. clavell . mr. clavell . yes , i am so , sir. mr. sol. gen. i suppose you have had some dealings with them in the way of your trade , did you never see any of their writing ? mr. clavell . i have seen the names of some of them ; but it is so long since that i cannot remember . l. c. i. did you ever see my lord of peterborough write ? mr. clavell . i cannot tell whether ever i saw him write his name or no ; but i have had several letters from my lord of peterborough . mr. sol. gen. is that his hand-writing ? mr. clavell . i cannot say it is , i believe it is . mr. sol. gen. you have had letters from him you say ? mr. clavell . yes , and it seems to be like his hand . mr. pollixfen . but you never saw him write his hand you say ? mr. clavell . i cannot say i ever did . mr. sol. gen. these letters that you have received from my lord of peterborough , did he own them ? do you think they were counterfeit , or of his own hand-writing ? mr. clavell . i suppose he has owned them , sir. mr. i. powell . but you must answer directly , sir , did he own them ? mr. sol. gen. what did those letters concern ? were they about books , or what ? mr. clavell . they were sometimes about one business , sometimes about another . mr. sol. gen. was the subject-matter of any of these letters about mony ; and was it paid you ? did you receive , or did you give any account of it ? mr. clavell . they were about several businesses . l. c. i. look you , mr. clavell , you must give us as particular account as you can . mr. sol. gen. pray , sir , upon those letters were the things done that those letters required . mr. clavell . yes ▪ they were . mr. sol. gen. did you do your part ? mr. clavell . yes , i did . mr. sol. gen. now i would ask you , do you believe that name of my lord bishop of peterborough to be the hand-writing of my lord bishop ? mr. clavell . i believe it is . mr. i. powell . do you know that those letters that you say you received from my lord , were of my lords own hand-writing , do you swear that ? mr. clavell . my lord i cannot swear that . mr. finch . do you know whether the letters , that you received , as you say , were written by my lord himself , or by his secretary ? mr. clavell . i have received letters from him , and his secretary too . sir g. treby . but were you present with him when he writ any letters with his own hand ? mr. sol. gen. you do not mean a letter to your self sure , sir george ? sir g. treby . no sir , i say any letters . mr. clavell . i have been present with my lord often , but i cannot say i have seen my lord write . l. c. i. he has here told you , he has had several letters of my lords own hand , and from his secretary too . mr. i. powell . he has said it , but you see he says he never saw him write . mr. sol. gen. we have given evidence against my lord arch-bishop , lord bishop of ely , st. asaph , peterborough , and bristol . mr. i. powell . certainly mr. sollicitor you mistake — but go on — mr. sol. gen. we have given evidence i say against them , sir , but whether it be sufficient evidence , we shall argue by and by . — call mr. hooper and mr. chetwood again . mr. chetwood appeared . mr. sol. gen. do you know the hand-writing of my lord bishop of bath and wells ? mr. chetwood . i have seen it twice or thrice , but it is a considerable time since i did see it . mr. sol. gen. do you believe that is his hand-writing ? mr. chetwood . i never saw him writ●… his name in my life . mr. sol. gen. pray look upon the name , and tell us what you believe of it ? mr. chetwood . i believe it may , but i do not certainly know it to be his hand , i rather believe it is my lord bishop of bath and wells his hand , than i believe that other to be my lord of peterboroughs . sir g. treby . do you believe that to be my lord of peterborough's hand or no ? mr. chetwood . i say , i rather believe that this is the bishop of bath and wells his writing , than that which is above it or below it , to be their writing ; but truly i do not distinctly know my lord bishop of bath and wells his hand . mr. sol. gen. call mr. hooper . l. c. i. you are very lame in this matter . mr. sol. gen. the witnesses are unwilling , and we must find out the truth as well as we can . mr. hooper did not appear . mr. sol. gen. call mr. iames and mr. powell . mr. james appeared and was sworn . mr sol. gen. do you know my lord bishop of bristol's writing , mr. iames ? mr. iames. yes , i believe i do , but i am not so certain , because my lord writes several times several hands . mr. sol. gen. shew him the paper : is that my lord of bristol's hand ? mr. iames. i cannot say it is or no. mr. sol. gen. what do you believe ? mr. iames. it looks like his hand , and that 's all i can say . mr. sol. gen. but pray hearken , and answer to what i ask you ; you are prepared for one question it may be , and i shall ask you another : upon your oath , do you believe it to be the hand-writing of my lord of bristol ? mr. iames. upon my oath , i can only say it looks like it , that 's all . l. c. i. did you ever see him write ? mr. iames. yes , my lord , i have seen his hand-writing several times , and it is like his hand-writing , that is all i can say . mr. sol. gen. sir , remember you are upon your oath , and answer my question . mr. iames. upon my oath , i know no more than that , sir william williams . mr. sol. gen. i ask you , sir , whether you believe it to be his hand or not ? mr. iames. my lord , it looks like his hand , and it may be his hand . mr. att. gen. but you do think and believe one way or other : what do you believe ? mr. iames. it may be his hand , for what i know , and it may not . mr. sol. gen. it may be your hand . mr. iames. no , sir , it cannot be mine , i am sure . mr. sol. gen. what do you believe ? mr. iames. i believe it may be his hand , or it may not be his hand , that is all i can say . l. c. i. come , sir , you must answer fairly , do you believe it to be his hand , or do you not ? mr. iames. yes , i do believe it . mr. att. gen. you are very hard to believe methinks . mr. iames. no , i am not . mr. sol. gen. you do very well now mr. iames ; when you do well , we 'll commend you . mr. att. gen. call mr. nathaniel powell . mr. powell was sworn . mr. sol. gen. pray , sir , let 's know what 's your name . mr. powell . my name is nathaniel powell . mr. sol. gen. pray do you know the hand-writing of my lord bishop of chichester . mr. powell . i have not seen the paper , sir. mr. sol. gen. do you know his hand-writing ? mr. powell . yes , i believe i do . mr. sol. gen. look upon that name of his . mr. powell . i did not see my lord write that . mr. sol. gen. who says you did : no body asks that of you ; how you answer ! pray sir , remember your oath , and answer seriously , do you believe it to be his writing or no ? mr. powell . i believe it is like my lord's hand-writing , but i did never see him write it . mr. sol. gen. no body says you did . mr. powell . therefore i cannot swear positively it is his hand . mr. sol. gen. we do not ask that neither . mr. powell . i cannot tell whether it be his hand or no. l. c. i. sir , you must answer the question directly , and seriously : do you believe it , or do you not believe it ? mr. powell . i cannot tell what to believe in the case . mr. sol. gen. then i ask you another question , upon your oath , do you believe it is not his hand ? mr. powell . i cannot say that neither . mr. sol. gen. once again , i ask you , upon your oath , do you believe it to be his hand ? i ask you plainly , and let mankind judge of you ? mr. powell . i tell you , sir , i cannot tell what to believe . mr. sol. gen. my lord , if these things be endured , there will be an end of all testimony , if witnesses do not answer fairly to the questions that are asked them . mr. i. powell . truly to me , for a man to swear his belief in such a matter , is an extraordinary thing . mr. sol. gen. he is obliged to answer questions , when they are fairely put to him . mr. pollixfen . i think that is a hard question , not to be answered . mr. sol. gen. make your exceptions to the evidence if you please . l. c. i. first , he says , he knows his hand ; then he says , he has seen him write ; and then he says , he did not see him write this ; but he shuffles , he won't answer whether he believes it or not . mr. pollixfen . the question is , whether belief in any case be evidence ? mr. sol. gen. if they have a mind to a bill of exceptions upon that point , let them seal their bill , and we 'll argue it with them when they will ; in the mean time , we 'll go on , and that which we now pray , my lord , is , that this paper may be read. mr. att. gen. we have given sufficient evidence sure to have it read , therefore we desire it may be read. mr. serj. levinz . my lord , before this paper be read , we hope you will let us be heard to it : we think that what they desire ( to have this paper read ) ought not to be : for what is all the proof that they have given of this paper ? they have a proof by comparison of hands , which in a criminal case ought not to be received : and besides , my lord , what is that comparison of hands , that they have offered ? some persons come here and say , they cannot tell whether it be their hands , they believe it may or it may not , for ought they know ; how shall we convict any man upon such a testimony as this ? can we have our remedy against him for perjury , for saying , he believes it to be our hand ? therefore here is not any evidence to charge us . for first , it is only a comparison of hands ; and secondly , that comparison is proved in such an uncertain manner : some of them tell you , they do not know what to believe ; another tells you , i believe 't is rather such a lord's hand ; then the others are such a lord's hands , i believe 't is rather his hand than that above it , or that below it ; what sort of proof is all this ? therefore we pray it may not be read till they prove it better . mr. serj. pamberton . pray , my lord , spare me a word or two in this matter for evidence sake , there is a great deal of reason we should take exceptions to the evidence that has been given : for truly i think i never heard such a sort of evidence given before ; it is a case of as great concernment as ever was in westminster ●…all ; and for them to come to prove hands only by those that saw letters , but never saw the persons write ; this i hope will not amount to so much as a comparison of hands . your lordship knows , that in every petty cause , where it depends upon the comparison of hands , they use to bring some of the parties hand writing , which may be sworn to , to be the parties own hand , and then it is to be compared in court with what is endeavoured to be proved , and upon comparing them together in court , the jury may look upon it , and see if it be right ; and never was there any such a thing as this admitted in any poor petty cause , that is but of the value of forty shillings . and therefore as to this evidence , first , we say comparison of hands ought not to be given at all in the cases of criminals ; and i believe it was never heard of that it should . in the next place , if it be admitted to be evidence , yet it is not such an evidence , as that by comparison of hands the jury can take notice of it ; for in such manner of proofs by comparison of hands , the usage is , that the witness is first asked , concerning the writing he produces , did you see this writ by the defendant , whose hand they would prove ? if he answers yes , i did , then should the jury upon comparison of what the witness swears to , with the paper that is to be proved , judge whether those hands be so like as to induce them to believe , that the sames person writ both ; and not that the witness should say , i had a letter from such a person , and this is like the hand of that letter , therefore i believe it to be his hand : my lord , i hope this shall never be admitted for evidence in this court. l. c. i. i do take it , that the witness himself is judge of the comparison ; for if he does know the parties hand , and a paper be offered him to prove the parties hand , he is to compare it in his own mind . mr. serj. pemberton . it never was admitted to be so , that i know of , my lord , or ever read of . mr. sol. gen. you may remember several cases about that , particularly sidney's case . mr. pollixfen . pray , my lord , hear me a little as to that : it is a point of very great moment , whether in the case of a misdemeanour either in an indictment or information , it be good evidence to offer comparison of hands ; and that this court did adjudge quite contrary upon an indictment of forgery against my lady carr , appears in syderfin's reports ; they went to prove her letters written by her to cox , the court rejected it , and gave their judgement here , that it was no evidence ; and that for this reason , because of the evil consequences of it . for said they , it is an easie matter for any man's hand to be counterfeited ; that they sure will agree , for frequent daily experience shews how easily that may be done : is it not easie then to cut any man down in the world , by proving it is like his hand ? and proving that likenss by comparing it with something that he hath formerly seen ? this strikes mighty deep ; the honestest man in the world and the most innocent may be destroyed , and yet no fault to be found in the jury or in the judges ; if the law were so , it would be an unreasonable law. next , my lord , for the case of sidney , that was a case of treason . now in the case of treason there is always other evidence brought ; and this evidence comes in , but as a collateral evidence , to strengthen the other ; but in this case it is the single evidence , for ought that appears , for there is nothing more ( for ought i can see ) in the case , but whether this were their hands , and proved only by what another believes : now shall any be condemned by anothers belief without proof ? surely , my lord , that was never evidence yet to convict any one ; so that their proof failes in both points ; for first , it ought to be considered whether comparison of hands be evidence in a case of misdemeanour ; and next if it be evidence , whether you will take it , that the belief of a man that brings nothing to compare with it , or never saw the party write , but has received letters , and says , this is like it , and therefore he believes it to be his hand , be good evidence as a comparison of hands . mr. serj. pemberton . my lord , they are pleased to mention — mr. sol. gen. mr. serj. you have been heard already , and you are not to reply upon us ; or if you would , we must be heard first . mr. serj. pemberton . i would only speak to that case of sidney : my lord , that case differs from this toto caelo , the writing was found in his possession , in his study ; there was the proof that nailed him . mr. sol. gen. you shall see how we 'll apply it by and by . mr. att. gen. pray , my lord , favour me a word in this matter : that there is stronger and weaker evidence no man doubts ; but that which these gentlemen say , that in this case there is no evidence , must needs be a mistake : if they mean , that it is not so strong an evidence as is possible to be given , i agree with them , it is not : for if we had brought three or four men that had seen them write this very paper , and put their names to it , that had been a stronger evidence than this , that we have given ; but whether we do not give such a sort of evidence as may induce the jury to belive , that this is their paper , and their hands to it , we submit : they say , this is such a method as never was taken ; but i admire that that should be said by men of their experience and knowledge in the law ; for is there any thing more usual , or any other course taken for the proof of hands , than for a wittness to say , he knows the hand of the party very well , for he has often seen his hand-writing , or received lettters from him ? and if you shew him the thing that you would prove to be his hand , and he says , i do believe this to be his hand , for this reason , because i have had other things of his writing : certainly in the experience of any man that has practised , this is an evidence that is given every day , and allowed for evidence . for the case of mr. sidney , which your lordship has heard mentioned , it is certainly very opposite to this purpose ; it is insisted upon and pretended . that that was evidence , because it was found in his study : but without all doubt , that would not be the reason : for may not a book of another man 's writing be found in my study ? and he insisted upon it in his own defence : but the answer was , that it should be left as the question , whether the jury would believe it upon the evidence that was given , of its being his own hand-writing : and so in this case , though it be not so strong evidence , as if we had brought those that had seen them write it ; yet evidence it is , and whether it be sufficient to satisfie the jury , may be a question ; but no question , it is good evidence in law. mr. sol. gen. it is a wonderful thing , they say , that such evidence should be offered : but truly , my lord , it is a much stranger thing to hear mr. serj. pemberton say , it was never done before ; and then to make that remark to your lordship upon the case of sidney , which i 'le put to your lordship and the court as a case , and let him contradict me if he can ; and then we shall see how far it goes . sidney was indicted for high treason ; and the treason insisted upon was , a writing supposed to be his , it being found in his study ; the question was , whether it was his hand-writing or no ? there was no positive evidence that is was his hand-writing ; there was no evidence produced that proved it to be his hand-writing ; for there was no one that swore , that they they saw him write it ; there was nothing proved , but the similitude of hands . ay , but says mr. serj. pemberton , it was found in his study : will mr. serj. pemberton be content , that all the libels that are found in his study , shall , for that reason , be adjudged to be libels , to be his hand-writing , and he to be a libeller for them ? i think he will make a severe declamation against that , and he would have very good reason for it : certainly that which was evidence in one man's case , will be evidence in another . god forbid there should be any such distinction in law ; and therefore i conclude that this is good evidence . mr. serj. pemberton . the court went upon this . that it was found in his study , and compared with letters and bills of exchange produced in court ; which were sworn to be of his hand-writing . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i was by all the time ; for i was ordered to attend him in the tower ; and therefore i can tell what passed as well as any body . my lord , they proved no more as to that libel , but only by comparison of hands ; they had no other proof in that case , but by comparing the hand-writing ; and that was insisted upon to be a mighty fallible thing : that which they would have for us to compare , paper with paper , it is true , would make the proof somewhat stronger , if we could , in such a case as this , be able to produce such evidence : but i appeal to your lordship , and shall leave it to the jury , to consider which is better evidence ; these men , that have been produced , that have been conversant with these lords , and acquainted with their hand-writing , and who ( as your lordship sees ) are not willing men to give evidence , they avoid it as much as they can ; and they swear it all to be the hand-writing of the archbishop of canterbury , as they believe ; which is as far as any man can swear . one says the whole body of the paper is my lord of canterbury's hand , and he knows it very well ; so that we are not upon a single name , but a whole paper that contains many lines ; and this is as much as can be proved by any one , that did not see the thing written . then , my lord , for the rest of the company , the evidence is not so strong against every one of them , as it is against my lord archbishop ; but is strong enough certainly to convict them of what we accuse them of : and pray , my lord , what was the objection in sidney's case , but what has been mentioned here ? that any man's hand might be counterfeited . i remember in that case , there was one mr. wharton , a young gentleman , then in the court , that undertook to the court , that he would counterfeit that hand presently ; and he that was to swear the comparison , should not know , which was the one , and which was the other ; which certainly was a stronger case than this . and i see some of the learned gentlemen that are now standing at the bar , who pressed this matter very hard against mr. sidney , and mr. sidney lost his life upon that comparison of hands ; though mr. wharton did testifie how easie a matter it was to have a man's hand counterfeited ; and we all know was a man of value and quality ; so there is a president for mr. serj. pemberton , that never heard of this law before . they say the proving of similitude of hands is no evidence , unless you prove the actual writing ; what a condition then will england be in , when witnesses are dead ? is it not the most common practice that can be , to produce witnesses to prove such men are dead , whose names are set as witnesses to deeds ; and they swear , they believe it to be the hand-writing of those witnesses ? can there be any greater evidence of such a case , unless it be the confession of the party himself ? my lord , we are now only upon reading this paper . we have been heard , and they have been heard ; now we pray the paper may be read. mr. recorder . we pray it may be read. mr. serj. levinz . if your lordship please — mr. sol. gen. we are not to be replied upon , mr. serjeant . l. c. i. you have spoke brother levinz , and you have spoke brother pemberton , and i would willingly hear you what you have to say ; but we must not have vying and revying , for then we shall have no end . mr. serj. levinz . i would offer your lordship some new matter which has not been touched upon yet ; why it is not to be read. l. c. i. what 's that brother ? mr. serj. levinz . all the proof that has been given whatsoever it amounts to has been only of its being written , but no proof has been given of its being written in the county of middlesex , where the information is laid , and the matter is local . mr. sol. gen. first read it , and then make your objection . mr. recorder . my lord , as to the evidence that has been given , i would only put your lordship in mind of one case ; and that was the case of sir samuel barnardiston : and the great evidence there , was the proof of its being his hand-writing ; and that being proved , was sufficient to convict him of a libel : for they could not believe sir samuel barnardiston was guilty of making libels , unless they were proved to be his hand-writing . sir robert sawyer . he owned them to be his hand-writing . l. c. i. if you do expect my opinion in it , whether this be good evidence , and whether this paper be proved or no ; i am ready to give it . mr. finch . my lord , i desire to be heard before the opinion of the court be given . mr. sol. gen. if there be not proof enough to induce the jury to believe this is their paper ; yet sure there is enough to read it . sir robert sawyer . my lord , we have not been heard to this yet . mr. sol. gen. why is this fit to be suffered ? l. c. i. mr. sol. i am always willing to hear mr. finch . mr. sol. gen. but i hope your lordship , and the court , are not to be complemented into an unusual thing . mr. serj. pemberton . it is not a complement , but right and justice . mr. sol. gen. certainly it is right and justice , that there should be some limits put to men's speaking , that we may know when to have an end . sir robert sawyer . mr. sollicitor does mistake the right , my lord , for we desire to be heard to this point ▪ as not having spoke to it yet . mr. sol. gen. pray , sir , let me make my objection to your being heard : for i believe you and i have been chid several times , for speaking over and over the same thing . sir r. sawyer . this that we now offer , i●… not to the same point , that we have spoken to already . mr. sol. gen. we are now speaking to the reading of the paper , and you have spoken to it already . sir r. sawyer . if the court will please to hear us , we have that to offer against the reading of that paper , which has not been offered yet . l. c. i. sir robert sawyer , i take it , it is in the breast of the court ●…o he●… when they will , and as much as they will , and whom they will ; for if three or four have been heard of a side to speak what they will , the court may very well depend upon the learning of those three or four , that they say what can be said upon the point , and that 's enough ; but if six or seven desire to be heard over and over to the same thing , certainly the court may stop at three or four , if they will. sir r. sawyer . this is a new objection that none of us have been heard to yet . mr. finch . my lord , that which i offer is not contrary to the rules of law , nor contrary to the practice of the court ; nor was i going any way to invade that priviledge which mr. sollicitor claims of making objections , and not receiving an answer . mr. sol. gen. what a fine declamation you have now made ! i never claimed any such right ; but i oppose your being heard over and over to the same thing . mr. att. gen. pray , my lord , let 's come to some issue in this matter . l. c. i. i will hear you ; but i would not have you introduce it with a reflection upon the king's council . mr. sol. gen. my lord , if you impose that upon him , you stop his mouth ; for some men cannot speak without reflection . l. c. i. on the other side , pray mr. sollicitor , give us leave to hear fairly what they have to say ; for , i perceive , he cannot offer to speak , but you presently stop his mouth . mr. finch . my lord , that which i was going to say , is another matter than any thing that has been yet offered : we say , that this paper ought not to be read ▪ for that they are obliged by law to prove their information ; and consequently , having laid a particular place where the thing was done , in the information , they ought to prove that this was done in that place . the evidence that they have given , is of my lords the bishops writing this paper ; and they have laid it to be done in middlesex : and this , with submission to your lordship , is local ; and they must prove it to be written in middlesex , where they have laid it , or else they fail in their proof . this is another objection , which as yet hath not been spoken to : that if there be a proof of their hand-writing , yet there is no proof where that hand was written ; and therefore they are not yet got so far , as to have it read against my lords . mr. att. gen. for that point , my lord , we say , this would have been as properly said after the paper had been read , when they come to make objections against our proof , by way of defence : and with submission , it had been more proper then , than it is now for what are we now doing my lord , we are proving that such a paper was subscribed by my lords the bishops ; and sir iohn nicholas gives you an account , that he had it from his majesty at the council and that certainly is in the county of middlesex ; and i●… will concern you to prove that it was written elsewhere . mr. serj. pemberton . that 's very well mr. attorney ▪ sure you do not think as you speak . mr. att. gen. here is a paper composed and written by you , that sir iohn nicholas says he had from his majesty ; how he came by it . i suppose you will tell us by and by ; this is your hand-writing , that i think we have proved sufficiently , this is found in the county of middlesex ; and you come and tell us , that we must prove that it was written in the county of middlesex ; and it is taken to be written where it was found , unless you prove the contrary . mr. serj. pemberton . that 's pretty doctrine indeed , and very new . mr. sol. gen. my lord , here 's an objection made too timely : we are now upon reading of this paper : and the question is , whether it shall be read or not be read. surely we have given evidence enough to induce the court to read it : and it is another question , that will come time enough afterwards ; where it was writen ? l. c. i. truly , i do not think it was proper for you to stand upon the place where it was written as yet . mr. serj. levinz . when we are upon an information of a fact in middlesex , will you hear them give evidence of a fact in yorkshire ? mr. sol. gen. we are not to be driven by these gentlemen ; we are to be directed by the court. l. c. i. i think truly it is yet too early to make this objection . mr. serj. pemberton . surely , my lord , this is our time to oppose the reading of it , as not proved . mr. i. powell . mr. sollicitor , i think you have not sufficiently proved this paper to be subscribed by my lords the bishops . mr. sol. gen. not to read it , sir ? mr. i. powell . no , not to read it , it is too slender a proof for such a case : i grant you , in civil actions a slender proof is sufficient , to make out a man's hand , by a letter to a tradesman , or a correspondent , or the like ; but in criminal causes ( such as this ) if such a proof be allowed , where is the safety of your life or any man's life here . mr. sol. gen. we tell you a case where it was allowed ; and that is mr. sidney's case ; a case of treason , and printed by authority : we tell you nothing , but what was done to'ther day . l. c. i. i tell you what i say to it ; i think truly there is proof enough to have it read : and i am not ashamed nor afraid to say it ; for i know i speak with the law : say what you will of criminal cases , and the danger of peoples lives ; there were more danger to the government , if such proof were not allowed to be good . mr. i. powel . i think there is no danger to the government at all , in requiring good proof against offenders . l. c. i. here 's my lord archbishop and the bishop of st. asaph and my lord of ely , their hands are proved ; it is proved to be my lord archbishop's writing by mr. brookes , and he proves my lord of ely's hand by comparison , and so my lord of st. asaph's . now brother pemberton , there 's an answer to your objection ; it being proved that it is all my lord archbishop's hand : then they come and say , we 'll prove the hands of the others by comparison : and for that they bring you witnesses , that say , they have received letters from them , and seen their hand-writing several times : and comparing what they have seen with this very paper ; says the witness , i do believe it to be his hand . can there be a greater evidence or a fuller ? mr. serj. pemberton . admit it be a full evidence against my lord arch-bishop : what 's that to the rest ? there 's no evidence against them . mr. i. allybone . brother pemberton , as to the objection you make of comparing of hands ; it is an objection indeed , i do agree : but then consider the inconvenience which you and mr. pollixfen do so much insist upon : if a man should be accused by comparison of hands , where is he ? he is in a lamentable case ; for his hand may be so counterseited , that he himself may not be able to distinguish it . but then you do not consider where you are on the other side : that may be an objection in matters of fact , that will have very little weight , if compared and set altogether . for , on the other side , where shall the government be , if i will make libels , and traduce the government with prudence and discretion , and all the secrecy imaginable ? i 'll write my libel by my self , prove it as you can ; that 's a fatal blot to the government ; and therefore the case is not the same ; nor is your doctrine to pass for current here ; because every case depends upon its own fact. if i take upon me to swear i know your hand , the inducements are to my self , how i came to know it , so as to swear it : knowledge depends on circumstances ; i swear that i know you , but yet i may be under a mistake , for i can have my knowledge of you no other way but from the visibility of you , and another man may be so like you , that there is a possibility of my being mistaken ; but certainly , that is evidence , and good evidence : now here are several gentlemen that swear as to my lord archbishop's hand-writing ; i do agree , as to some of the others , that the evidence is not so strong ; for what that man said , that he did believe it was rather such a lord's hand , than that which went before , or that which came after , it is of no weight at all , and so some of the others ; but it is positively proved against my lord archbishop and one or two more ; so that that 's enough to induce the reading of this writing . mr. iust. holloway . good my lord , let me give my opinion . l. c. iust. ay , withall my heart , brother . mr. iust. holloway . my lord , i think as this case is , there ought to be a more strong proof , for certainly the proof ought to be stronger and more certain in criminal matters than in civil matters ; in civil matters , we do go upon slight proof , such as the comparison of hands , for proving a deed , or a witnesses name , and a very small proof will induce us to read it ; but in criminal matters we ought to be more strict , and require positive and substantial proof , that is fitting for us to have in such a case , and without better proof , i think it ought not to be read . l. c. iust. you must go on to some other proof mr. sollicitour , for the court is divided in their opinions about this proof . mr. soll. gen. then , my lord , we will come to the confessions of my lords the bishops , and i hope that will be believed by all man-kind . mr. att. gen. truly my lord , we did forbear that evidence , and would not have proceeded this way , if we had had fair play on the other side . sir ro. sawyer . mr. attorney , give us leave to defend our clients all the ways we can ; i think we doe nothing but what is fair ; the court you see is divided , therefore we did not without reason insist upon it . l. c. iust. you must go on as you can , for they will put you upon it . mr. att. gen. swear mr. blathwayt . mr. blathwayt sworn . mr. soll. gen. pray hand the writing to him . the writing shown to him . mr. soll. gen. have you seen that writing formerly sir ? mr. blathwayt . yes , sir. mr. soll. gen. what did you hear my lord arch-bishop say about that paper ? mr. att. gen. and the rest of my lords the bishops . mr. soll. gen. first we 'll ask as to my lord arch-bishop ; did he own it to be his hand-writing ? mr. blathwayt . my lord , i believe this to be the paper that my lord arch-bishop did own to be subscribed by him . mr. soll. gen. when was it owned by him ? mr. blathwayt . on the council day , the eighth of this month. mr. soll. gen. where was it owned , because we would obviate that objection of the county ? mr. blathwayt . it was at the council table at whitehall . mr. soll. gen. what say you to the bishop of st. asaph ? did he own it ? mr. blathwayt . yes ; all my lords the bishops did own it ? mr. soll. gen. name them particularly ; what say you the bishop of ely ? mr. blathwayt . in the same manner , my lord. mr. soll. gen. the bishop of chichester ? mr. blathwayt . in the same manner . mr. soll. gen. the bishop of bath and wells ? mr. blathwayt . yes , my lord. mr. soll. gen. the bishop of peterborough ? mr. blathwayt . yes , my lord. mr. soll. gen. and the bishop of bristol ? mr. blathwayt . yes , my lord. mr. soll. gen. so ; we have proved they all owned it . mr. iust. holloway . could not this have been done at first , and saved all this trouble ? sir rob. sawyer . have you done with mr. blathwayt , mr. attorney , that we may ask him some questions . mr. att. gen. ask him what you will. mr. ser. pemb. pray , mr. blathwayt , upon what occasion did they own it , you are sworn to tell the whole truth ; pray tell all your knowledge , and the whole confession that they made . mr. blathwayt . my lord , i am called here by a subpoena to answer on behalf of the king ; my lord , i am ready to doe my duty , and i beg of your lordship that you would please to tell me what is my duty ; for whatsoever i shall answer , i shall speak the truth in . mr. ser. pemb. there is nothing desired , but that you would speak the truth . mr. blathwayt . my lord , i am easily guided by your lordship what i ought to answer to . l. c. iust. what is it you ask him , brother pemberton ? mr. ser. pemb. we desire mr. blathwayt to tell the whole discourse that passed at the council , when he says my lords the bishops owned this paper . mr. soll. gen. that 's a very pretty thing indeed . l. c. iust. look you , mr. blathwayt , you must answer them what they ask you , unless it be an ensnaring question , and that the court will take care of . mr. blathwayt . if your lordship please to ask me any question , i shall readily answer it . l. c. iust. you must answer them . mr. ser. pemb. we ask you upon what occasion they came to own their hands ? what discourse was made to them , and what they answered ? mr. blathwayt . my lord , i beg your lordship's directions . l. c. iust. come , tell it , sir. mr. blathwayt . my lord , the occasion was this ; this paper was read in council , and i had the honour to read it before the king , and it having been read before his grace the arch-bishop , and my lords the bishops , they were asked whethey did own that paper , and , my lord , they did own it . sir rob. sawyer . mr. blathwayt , was that the first time that my lords the bishops came in ? mr. blathwayt . sir i was not asked that question . l. c. iust. what would you have , sir robert sawyer ? sir robert sawyer . we would have an account what passed at the council . l. c. iust. would you have all the discourse betwixt the council and my lords the bishops ? mr. ser. pemb. all that relates to their accusation , my lord , their whole confession , and what was said to them . mr. att. gen. do you think , mr. serjcant , that when we call a witness , you are at liberty to examine him to every impertinent thing ? mr. soll. gen. my lord , we desire that they may only ask reasonable and proper questions . mr. ser. pemb. mr. sollicitour he is sworn to answer and tell the whole truth , and that 's all we ask of him . sir rob. sawyer . sir , i will ask you a plain question upon your oath , did not my lord arch-bishop , and the rest of my lords the bishops , at first resuse to own it , or to answer whether it were their hands or not ? mr. soll. gen. that is not a fair question sir robert sawyer ; 't is a leading question . mr. ser. pemb. then i ask you in short , what did they refuse ? i am sure that is a fair question , for god forbid that any should hinder the king's evidence from telling truth . sir rob. sawyer . and god forbid that half evidence should condemn any man. l. c. iust. god forbid the truth should be concealed any way . mr. ser. pemb. pray , sir , when they were first asked , whether that was their hands or not , what answer did they give ? mr. blathwayt . sir , i have begged the favour of my lords the judges to tell me what i am to answer , and what questions are proper for me to answer to . l. ch. iust. you must answer any questions that are not ensnaring questions . sir robert sawyer . mr. blathwayt , you are upon your oath to testifie the truth . mr. blathwayt . sir , i am not acquainted with the methods of law , i desire my lords the judges would instruct me . mr. iust. ailibone . answer to the question that they ask you . ld. ch. iust. we observe what they ask you ; we 'll take care that they ask you nothing but what they should . mr. blathwayt . i desire the question may be repeated . mr. s. pemberton . when they were first asked if it were their hands , what answer did they give the king ? mr. blathwayt . his grace the archbishop , and my lords the bishops , at first did not immediately answer whether the paper were theirs or no. mr. s. peinberton . what did they say ? mr. blathwayt . they said they did humbly hope , if they were put to answer , no advantage should be taken against them . mr. s. pemberton . what did they say farther at that time concerning his majesties pleasure ? mr. soll. gen. that 's a leading question , mr. s. pemberton , you cannot leave your way of leading witnesses . mr. s. pemberton . it is a very strange thing ; if we ask a question that 's general , that 's excepted to ; if we ask any question in particular , then they find fault with us , that it is a leading question ; so that we can never ask a question that will please them . pray mr. blathwayt , what did they say concerning the king's pleasure , whether they would answer if the king commanded them ? mr. s. trinder . how can it be material what they said ? l. cn. iust. it is material that it should be asked , and that it should be answered . mr. s. levinz . you are to tell the whole truth , sir , pray tell us what did my lords the bishops say about submitting to the king's pleasure ? mr. soll. gen. what is that to the purpose ? mr. pollixfen . mr. sollicitour , his oath is to tell the truth , and the whole truth , and therefore he must answer my question . mr. s. pemberton . you are mighty loth , mr. sollicitour , to let us hear the truth ; i would not willingly lead him in any thing , and i cannot see that this is any leading question , unless his oath be against law , which says he is to tell the whole truth . mr. at. gen. my lord , i do beg your lordship's favour of a word in this thing : it is certain , if they ask any thing that shall take off the evidence that was first given , that it is not true , i cannot oppose it ; but if they ask questions onely to conflame , and to possess people with foolish notions , and strange conceits , that is not to the fact that we are now trying — sr. rob. sawyer . 't is onely to have the truth out that we doe it . mr. s. pemberton . there is no body here that will be enflamed , mr. attorney ; i have asked a fair question , the court has ruled it so . mr. blathwayt . i shall readily answer any question that the court thinks fit . mr. s. pemberton . sir , by the oath you have taken you are to tell the whole truth . l. ch. iust. is he to tell you all that was done at the council board that day ? mr. s. pemberton . no , my lord ; onely what passed there about my lords the bishops confession , the whole of that matter . mr. blathwayt . there has been so much said between the asking of the question and this time , that i desire it may be repeated , that i may know what to answer to . mr. s. pemberton . i ask you in short , sir , what did my lords the bishops say at the time of their appearing in council concerning the king's pleasure , whether they should answer or not ? mr. blathwayt . the first time my lords the bishops came into the council , they were asked the question whether they did own that paper ; they did immediately answer , they humbly hoped , as they stood there criminals , his majesty would not take advantage against them , but however they would obey his majesties command . sir rob. sawyer . were they commanded to withdraw ? mr. blathwayt . yes , thereupon they were commanded to withdraw , which they did . mr. s. pemberton . when they came in again what questions were asked them ? mr. blathwayt . they came in several times , more than twice , i have reason to remark this , that they did so ; do you mean the second time , sir ? mr. s. pemberton . yes , sir. mr. blathwayt . the second time they seemed unwilling to own the paper . sir rob. sawyer . and what did they doe the third time . mr. s. pemberton . but first let us know what more was done the second time . sir geo. treby . how was that unwillingness of theirs overcome ? mr. s. pemberton . when they exprest their unwillingness what did they say farther ? mr. blathwayt . if i remember right , they said as they did the first time , they humbly hoped his majesty would not take advant●…ge against them . mr. s. pemberton . then what did they say the third time ? sr. rob. sawyer . pray , were they asked whether they published it ? mr. blathwayt . as to the publishing it , it was laid before them , and i think they were asked the question whether they published it ? sir rob. sawyer . and what answer did they make ? mr. blathwayt . i remember his grace , and my lords the bishops , did not own they had published it , but they denied it . sir geo. treby . after they discovered their unwillingness the second time , what followed next ? mr. blathwayt . they did withdraw after the second attendence . mr. s. levins . but what was said to them ? was that all that was said to them the second time ? mr. blathwayt . i have said two things already , that they were unwilling to answer , and that they denied the publishing . l. ch. iust. this is strange usage of a witness , to put him to tell every thing that was said . mr. s. pemberton . i would ask you this question , sir , when they came in the second time , whether they did desire to know if it were his majesties command that they should own it ? l. ch. iust. that i must not permit you to ask , brother , that is to lead the witness . mr. s. pemberton . my lord , he will not answer general questions ; i have asked him all along general questions , and i cannot get an answer from him to them . mr. blathwayt . i am ready to answer any questions that the court thinks i should answer ; i am not backward to answer according to my duty . l. ch. iust. let one of you ask a question at a time , and not chop in one upon another . mr. soll. gen. in all the tryalls that ever i have been in , in all the cases of criminals , the king's witnesses used to be treated with respect , and not to be fallen upon in this manner . l. ch. iust. he shall be sure to have all respect paid him . mr. soll. gen. he is in office under the king. mr. s. pemberton . i do not think mr. blathwayt does believe i would shew him any disrespect , more than he would shew me . mr. att. gen. i beg one word , my lord. l. ch. iust. mr. attorney , what do you say ? mr. att. gen. my lord , i say i do oppose the asking of this question , not but that every man has a right to cross examine a witness , but if they ask such a question , let them tell us what use they would make of it . l. ch. iust. mr. attorney general , for that matter — mr. s. pemberton . my lord , if you please i 'll give mr. attorney an answer . l. ch. iust. brother pemberton , i was speaking to mr. attorney , and pray hear me , i will not ask you what use you 'll make of the question you ask , but do you ask fair and regular questions , and i 'll take care you shall have an answer to them . mr. serj. pemberton . i will deal plainly with the court , and tell you what use we intend to make of our question ; if they answered under a promise from his majesty , that it should not be given in evidence against them , i hope they shall not take advantage of it . mr. soll. gen. i say that is a very unmannerly question , but however it shall be answered . mr. serj. pemberton . why so , mr. sollicitour ? mr. soll. gen. my lord , it is to put something upon the king which i dare hardly name . l. c. iust. we do not know what answer will be made to it yet , but it does look like an odd kind of question . mr. soll. gen. if men will be so pressing , i , for the king , desire the question may be entred . sir r. sawyer . what do you mean , mr. sollicitour ? mr. soll. gen. i know very well what i mean , sir ; i desire the question may be recorded in court. mr. serj. pemberton . record what you will , i am not afraid of you , mr. sollicitour . mr. soll. gen. are you afraid of the law ? mr. serj. pemberton . no , nor of you neither . l. c. iust. pray be quiet , gentlemen . mr. att. gen. pray , mr. blathwayt , answer whether there was any promise made to my lords the bishops from the king. mr. blathwayt . my lord , i take the question to be , whether the king was pleased to make my lords the bishops any promise of not taking advantage of what answer they made . mr. att. gen. that is the question . mr. blathwayt . as that question is stated there was no such made . l. c. iust. look you , he tells you there was no such promise made ; there is an answer to your question , brother . mr. serj. levinz . we made no such question ; but the question i would ask is this , — mr. soll. gen. for the satisfaction of the court repeat what you said just now , mr. blathwayt . mr. blathwayt . i take the question to be , whether the king made any promise to my lords the bishops , that no advantage should be taken of what they said , and i say the king made no such promise . mr. serj. pemberton . we did not ask you the question , but we only told you what use we would have made of another question . mr. pollixfen . mr. blathwayt , i see you can very well distinguish what questions are to be answered ; i ask you in short upon your oath , when they were first called in , what was said to them , and what was answered by them ? l. c. iust. here has been a great deal of wrangling , but this is a fair question , and may reduce us to order again ; tell us o●…er again from the beginning what passed when my noble lords the bishops came in the first , second , and third time , when they were examined about this paper ? mr. blathwayt . my lord , i shall comply with your lordship's directions , i apprehend i am to answer together concerning the first , second , and third comings in of my lords the bishops into the council . the first time , ( as i said before , ) my lords the bishops were unwilling to own the paper , and did say they humbly hoped his majesty would not take advantage against them , but that they were ready to obey his command . the second time they were called in they did repeat it again , that they hoped his majesty would not take advantage against them ; after that there was mention made of the paper being published , i remember my lords the bishops said they had not published it . — sir r. sawyer . is that all ? mr. att. gen. you have no mind to hear all , i think . l. c. iust. how do you expect to be answered your questions , if you interrupt them ? go on , mr. blathwayt . mr. blathwayt . sir , i said last , that they having prayed the king that no advantage might be taken against them for what they should say , there was mention made of the paper its being published , and my lords the bishops did say they had not published it ; and his grace my lord archbishop said it was written with his own hand , and that he had not made use of his clerk. sir. r. sawyer . is that all you can remember that passed at that time ? mr. blathwayt . this is the substance of what i remember . l. c. iust. was this the third time ? mr. blathwayt . no ; that was the second time , my lord. mr. pollixfen . if there be not some order in this evidence , my lord , we shall not be able to observe any thing upon it . — pray what was done afterwards ? mr. blathwayt . my lord chancellour , upon their coming in , did require them to answer whether they did own that paper or not ; my lords the bishops did own the paper . mr. pollixfen . do you remember in what words or expressions ( as near as you can ) they did own it ? mr. soll. gen. is this a practice to be endured ? mr. finch . why , he may apprehend and take that to be an owning of it which was not . mr. soll. gen. has not he sworn the manner of it , and almost the very words ? mr. serj. levinz . we desire nothing of him but that he will tell us what words they said when they owned it . mr. blathwayt . it was the third time that they came in , that they owned it . mr. serj. pemberton . why , what did they say ? mr. blathwayt . my lord chancellour required them to answer , whether they owned the paper or no. mr. serj. pemberton . what did they say then ? mr. blathwayt . as near as i can remember , his grace and my lords the bishops did own the paper . mr. serj. pemberton . what words did they own it in ? tell the manner of it . mr. soll. gen. what 's this to the purpose ? mr. finch . mr. blathwayt , did you take notes of what passed there ? mr. blathwayt . i answer , sir , i did not take notes , for i attended the king at his elbow , and did not take notes ; mr. finch , you know the manner of the council in such cases very well . mr. att. gen. then we ask you for the king , because they shall not enflame people by such an expression , in what words did they own it , if you can remember ? mr. blathwayt . sir , i have declared my memory as well as i can ; when the other clerks come to be examined , if they can tell any more , let them . mr. soll. gen. but we will have no discourse to enflame the world ; did the king promise or declare that no advantage should be taken of their confession ? l. ch. iust. i would ask him that question , what was the manner that my lord chancellour exprest himself in to them , when they came in the third time ? mr. blathwayt . assoon as my lord chancellour had required them to declare whether they owned that paper , as well as i remember , his grace took the paper in his hand , and it was handed over , or shewed , to my lords the holding it forth to the court. bishops , and they owned and declared so , just as if they should lay it before the court , just so : i do not recollect my self of all the circumstances that passed , i only can tell you the substance . mr. soll. gen. he does not remember what they said particularly . mr. att. gen. mr. sollicitour , i know well enough what they mean by the question ; i know they would fain possess the world with a belief that there was such a promise made them , and yet they are prosecuted notwithstanding that promise ; therefore i do ask you , mr. blaithwayt , and for the king's honour i must ask it , did the king make any promise or declaration , that no advantage should be taken , or use made of it . mr. blathwayt . the king did not make any promise or declaration that no advantage should be taken , or use made of it . mr. soll. gen. he only put them upon it , whether they did own it or not . mr. att. gen. i ask you upon your oath , did my lord archbishop own it to be his head-writing ? mr. blathwayt . yes he did , and said he writ it with his own hand , and would not let his clerk write it . mr. att. gen. did he own the whole to be his hand-writing , or not ? mr. blathwayt . yes , he did . mr. att. gen. did every one of the bishops own their names subscribed to it ? mr. blathwayt . yes . mr. soll. gen. then , my lord , we pray now that it may be read . l. c. iust. i suppose now they will be content it should be read . mr. finch . if your lordship please to favour me one word , i think it cannot yet be read , and my objection is this : — l. c. iust. i thought you had made all your objections before , as to the reading of it . mr. finch . pray , my lord , spare us : here are two parts of this information ; the one is for consulting and conspiring to diminish the king's royal prerogative , and for that end they did make and write a seditious libell ; the other part is , that they did publish this seditious libell : we are hitherto upon the first part , the making and writing of it ; both parts are local ; untill they have proved the making and writing of it to have been in middlesex , it is not evidence upon this information . mr. soll. gen. we have proved it written and published in middlesex . mr. serj. pemb. the contrivance and writing of a libell is in itself penal , and they may be punished for it , if they be found guilty : now if they could give an undeniable evidence concerning the publishing of it , that is nothing to this point ; but if they should not give such evidence , or any evidence at all of the publication , yet if it be proved that it was written and contrived by them , they would be guilty for so much , if it be a libell , and this we say is local as well as all the rest ; and therefore we insist upon it , that the writing and contriving must as well be proved to be in middlesex , as the publication , for all is local . l. c. iust. there is no publishing yet proved . mr. serj. levinz . it is true , my lord , here is nothing of a publication yet , ( with your lordship's favour , ) for their answer to his majesty in council was , that they did not publish it ; all that is said yet , is , that they owned the paper to be their hands : my lord , does the owning of that own that it was written in the county of middlesex ? or that it was contrived or made there ? no surely , upon this evidence the place is clearly at large : my lord , this might have been done in the county of surrey , or somerset , or any other county : their information is , that they did consult and contrive to diminish the king's prerogative at westminster in the county of middlesex , and there they did write , and cause to be written , this libell , and there they did publish it ; suppose it should be granted that it is proved that this is the archbishop's hand-writing , and these are their names to it , is there any one evidence that any thing of this was done in middlesex ? and , my lord , that is the thing they are to prove . mr. sommers . if your lordship please , all matters of crime are so local , that if it be not proved to be done in the county where it is laid , the party accused is as innocent , as if he never had done the thing ; and , with submission , it is the very point of the information ; that it be proved they are guilty of the fact in the place where it is laid to be done . l. c. iust. this is the same thing over and over again ; but i am content to hear you , mr. sommers , at any time ; i have told you my opinion about reading of the paper already , if you 'll have it again you may . mr. pollixfen . pray , good my lord , spare us , before it be read . mr. iust. holloway . mr. pollixfen , you have not yet had the directions of the court for the reading of it . mr. att. gen. my lord , when this paper is read , which we pray it may be , we will answer their objections , but at present we say , they are out of time . mr. pollixfen . good lord , what a ●…ange thing is this ! we object against the reading of it , and you 'll answer us after it is read . mr. soll. gen. certainly , my lord , we have done enough to prove that this is a paper owned by them in the county of middlesex , and we pray it may be read . l. ch. iust. truly i am of the same mind i was before , that it is too soon to make the objection , and that the paper ought to be read . mr. soll. gen. we submit to your rule . mr. pollixfen . if it be the will of the court , i have nothing to say . mr. iust. powell . my lord , the contrivance and publication are both matters of fact , and upon issue joined the jurors are judges of the fact , as it is laid in the information ; but how can they be judges of a matter of fact done in another county ? and it must be presumed , in favour of innocence , not to be done in this county , but in another , except they prove it . mr. att. gen. we are not yet ripe for arguing that point . mr. soll. gen. we are speaking only to the court now for the reading of this paper , and the jury are not judges of that , whether the paper ought to be read or no ; that is merely a matter of law , and under the direction of the court ; and therefore i pray , since it is now in your lordship's judgment , whether that paper should be read , that you would please to order it to be read . l. c. iust. i can only give you my own opinion , let my brothers give theirs . mr. iust. holloway . there is no body against the reading of it , my lord ; i suppose my brother powell is not against its being read . mr. iust. powell . but they say the king's counsel must make it out first , that the writing of it , and the conspiring about it was in the county of midds . or there can be no judgment , so much as to read it . mr. pollixfen . my lord , if the objection be saved to us , we shall not so much oppose the reading it , only we would not be surprized in point of time . mr. iust. powell . nay , if they consent to the reading , we have no reason to hinder it . l. c. iust. brother , i believe they know well enough what they have to say for their clients ; let the paper be read . clerk reads : the humble petition of william archbishop of canterbury — sir. r. sawyer . read the whole petition ; pray , my lord , that the whole may read . read the top first , sir ; to whom it was directed . l. c. iust. read the whole . clerk reads : to the king 's most excellent majesty . the humble petition of william archbishop of canterbury , and of divers of the suffragan bishops of that province , now present with him , in behalf of themselves and others of their absent brethren , and of the clergy of their respective dioceses , humbly sheweth : that the great aversness they find in themselves to the distributing and publishing in all their churches your majesties late declaration for liberty of conscience , proceedeth neither from any want of duty and obedience to your majesty , ( our holy mother , the church of england , being both in her principles and in her constant practice unquestionably loyal ; and having ( to her great honour ) been more than once publickly acknowledged to be so by your gratious majesty , ) nor yet from any want of due tenderness to dissenters , in relation to whom they are willing to come to such a temper as shall be thought fit , when that matter shall be considered and settled in parliament and convocation ; but amongst many other considerations , from this especially , because that declaration is founded upon such a dispencing power , as hath been often declared illegal in parliament , and particularly in the years , and , and in the beginning of your majesties reign ; and is a matter of so great moment and consequence to the whole nation , both in church and state , that your petitioners cannot in prudence , honour , or conscience , so far make themselves parties to it , as the distribution of it all over the nation , and the solemn publication of it once and again , even in god's house , and in the time of his divine service , must amount to , in common and reasonable construction : your petitioners therefore most humbly and earnestly beseech your majesty , that you will be gratiously pleased not to insist upon their distributing and reading your majesties said declaration : and your petitioners ( as in duty bound ) shall ever pray , &c. mr. att. gen. my lord , we shall leave our evidence here , and hear what they can object to it . mr. finch . have you no farther evidence , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. we leave it here for the present . mr. sol. gen. the gentlemen of the jury desire to see the petition . l. ch. iust. shew it them . ( the petition was shewn to the iury. ) mr. finch . but will you give no farther evidence , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. i tell you we 'll leave it here , till we see what you say to it . mr. finch . there is nothing that we should say any thing to . mr. att. gen. make your advantage of it ; if it be nothing , we can have nothing . l. c. iust. what say you for the defendents , gentlemen . mr. finch . my lord , in short , we say that hitherto they have totally failed , for they have not proved any fact done by us in middlesex , nor have they proved any publication at all . sir robert sawyer . they have given no evidence of any thing . l. c. iust. pray gentlemen speak one at once , and then we shall understand the better what we hear . sir r. sawyer . my lord , we say , they have given no evidence of the conspiring , writing , or pulibshing in middlesex ; nay , as to the publication , there is none at all proved . mr. finch . here is no proof of any publication , nor of the writing or making in middlesex ; so that there is no proof at all against my lords , the bishops . l. c. iust. you heard what mr. blathwayt said , they owned it in middlesex . mr. finch . that is not a publication sure , or any evidence where it was done . mr. serj. levinz , suppose , my lord , that i own in middlesex , that i robb'd a man in yorkshire , will that make me guilty in middlesex ? mr. sol. gen. but if you had stole a horse in yorkshire , and had that horse in middlesex , and owned it , i doubt it would go hard with you in middlesex ? mr. sol. gen. mr. serjeant thinks he has put a very home comparison , but we shall shew how little significant it is by and by . mr. serj. levinz . my lord , in the first place we insist upon it ; here is no proof in this case at all , as to the doing of any fact at all in the county of middlesex ; in the next place , this information and petition do not agree ; for they have brought an information , and set forth , that my lords the bishops under pretence of a petition did make a libel , and they have set forth no petition at all , all the petitionary part is omitted : if i will take part of a man's words , and not the whole , and make a libel of that part , certainly that is very disingenuous and injurious ; for that part that i omit may alter the sense of the whole . they here ought to set forth the petition , with the direction to the king , and the prayer at the end , whereby it will appear what the whole is , and what was desired by their petition . but , my lord , to make this matter a little more clear , whatsoever they say of its being my lord archbishop's hand , we shall prove that if it were so , it could not be done in middlesex ; for we shall prove that my lord of canterbury had not been in middlesex for three or four months before . sir robere sawyer . pray let the information be read , then you will the see variance . mr. att. gen. there is not the latter part ( we acknowledge ) in the information . mr. sol. gen. there may be , and is , a sic continetur , and there is no objection in that at all . l. c. iust. it is sic continetur , and that 's — — — sir rob. sawyer . the truth of it is , this information has made a very deformed thing of it , has left it neither head nor tail ; they style it a petition , but it is without any direction to any body , and without any prayer for any thing ; and without those two it cannot be told what it is . mr. iust. allybone . sir rob. sawyer , if i mistake not , it is said only under pretence of a petition . sir rob. sawyer . there may be more in the paper , than in the information , and if all were in , one part might explain another . mr. sol. gen. so there may be more ; and i wonder to hear that objection from sir robert sawyer , who has exhibited so many informations for libells in pi●…es taken out of books . mr. recorder . all that we alledge in the information is contained in the paper , and that 's enough for our purpose ; we are not bound to recite the whole . l. ch. iust. indeed i think it is no material objection at all . mr. serj. pemberton . truly i think it is very material in this case ; here 's a petition that is preferred to his majesty ; take the whole petition together , and , say they , it is a reasonable petition ; chop off the direction and the prayer , and then here 's nothing but the body of a petition , without beginning or ending ; or if a man will say any thing concerning the king , and doe it by way of petition to himself , that will alter the case mightily , from a paper spread about , that should contain only the body of a petition , and nothing else . sir rob. sawyer . pray read that part of the information . mr. pollixfen . if so be there be an information , and that information charges a man with a pretended petition , and the evidence comes and proves a petition both top and bottom , that is not the petition in the information ; for that lacking the proper parts of a petition , is called a pretended petition , but that which is proved , is a real one . serj. baldock . my lord , there is nothing in this objection , as this record hath it . mr. att. gen. pray , my lord , give us leave to state it on our side , as they have done on theirs , and it will be the better understood upon the reading : i hope it is not come to that pass that they would have it , sure these gentlemen have not forgot altogether the practice that has been so frequent in this court ; if there be an information for a libell , is there any thing more frequent , than only to recite the material part ? sure they may say in such a libell is contained so and so , without setting forth the whole book . mr. sol. gen. how many tryalls have we had here , wherein there has been only a clause taken out of a book ; as particularly , baxter's bible , and iohnson's book , and all by virtue of a sic continetur . mr. finch . that comes not up to our objection here . mr. iust. powell . let us hear the record read , and then we can judge of it . sir rob. sawyer . we pray , sir , the information may be read . mr. att. gen. we are here upon all occasions chopp'd in upon , and i do not know how they come to take this liberty ; i am sure other people had it not in former times , when these gentlemen stood where we do ; as soon as ever we offer to speak , presently there are two or three upon us . l. ch. iust. let me hear them , mr. attorney , make their objection , and let the record be read , and that will answer that objection . mr. att. gen. my lord , as for that other thing , they come and tell us , we have set forth a petition , we say no such thing ; in the information we say , you composed a certain libell , pretens●… petitionis , in which are contained such and such things ; and now i pray let it be read . mr. sol. gen. pray , my lord , hear me a little first ; take the information as we have laid it , and i believe there are twenty presidents that i could give you in an instant of late days practice ; so was the information against mr. baxter , so was the information against mr. iohnson , so was the information against doctor eades , and so was the information against sir samuel barnardiston : they are all in this form , sic continetur ; so that as for that matter , we are well enough . but here 's another thing ( say they , ) you do not set out the petition ; we say , it is a libell , and it is not the name we rely on , but there is such a libell , so we in our information call it ; if it be not a libell , then are they very innocent ; and whether it be or no , is now in judgment before your lordship ; but if it be as we say , then it is not the speaking ill things in the body of a petition ; and then giving it a good title , and in concluding it with a good prayer at the end of it ; 't is not , i say , any of these that will sweeten this crime , nor alter , nor alleviate it at all ; if there be that which is seditious and libellous in the body of it , call the paper what you will , and smooth it with a preamble , or a conclusion , that will not make it any thing less a libell ; these things are plain and manifest : we say there is such a thing done , a libell made , pretens●… petitionis , do you call it what you will ; but we say , these and these things are a libell upon the king and the government : we have proved our case , we have proved there was such a paper under their hands , we have proved it was owned in middlesex , and then we are in your judgment , whether this be not evidence sufficient to convict the defendents : l. ch. iust. but they do make an objection about the writing and contriving of it , that it is not proved to be in middlesex . mr. serj. trinder . my lord , our information does not go with a continued clause , that they framed a libell , ut sequitur in haec verba , but we only say , they made a libell pretensu petitionis , and then we say , in quo quidem libello continetur , so and so ; we do not tie our selves up to a particular recital of all that 's in the paper . l. ch. iust. read the record : clerk reads : ipsi iidem willielmus archiepiscopus cantuariensis , ( and the rest ) dicta decimo octavo die maii , anno regni dicti domini regis nunc quarto supradicto vi & armis , &c. apud westmonasterium praedictum in comitatu middlesexiae , praedicto ilioite malitiose seditiose & scandalose quoddam falsum fictum pernitiosum & seditiosum libellum in scriptis de eodem domino rege & regall declaratione & ordine predictis pretensu petitionis fabricaverunt composuerunt & scripserunt & fabricari componi & scribi causaverunt , & eundem f●…lfum fictum malitiosum pernitiosum & seditiosum libellum per ipsos praedictos willielmum archiepiscopum cantuariensem , ( and the rest ) manibus suis propriis respective subscriptum die anno & loco ultimo mentionatis in proesentia dicti domini regis nunc vi & armis , &c. publicaverunt & publicari causaverunt ; in quo quidem falso ficto malitioso pernitioso & seditioso libello continetur the humble petition of , &c. — — — — mr. serj. levinz . it is quite another thing ; that which is produced from that which is in the information , by this leaving out a part ; for here is the prayer omitted , and the direction . mr. sol. gen. then , my lord , i think there is nothing in the case , but this mighty objection of the county ; and , says mr. serj. levinz , if my country-man confesses in this county , that he stole a horse in yorkshire , you shall not try him in london , but in yorkshire , because by his own confession the fact is in another county . mr. serj. levinz . i did not put the case so . mr. sol. gen. but take the fact of the case as it is here ; my lord , the bishops come in middlesex and own this paper , my lord archbishop owns it to be his writing , and the rest of the bishops own their hands ; if they had done as mr. serjeant's yorkshire-man did , and said , we own we did this , but it was in the county of york , then it would have been like the case that these gentlemen put ; but here we are in a plain case of another nature ; my lord archbishop comes here in middlesex , and owns that he writ the paper , the other bishops they signed it ; now it does lie certainly in their knowledge where this was done , and they should have declared then ; but they have owned it as their paper , and the signing and writing of it , which is enough for us . mr. finch . i own this to be my paper , therefore i writ it in the county of middlesex ; is that a consequence , i am very glad they are no better at their inferences . mr. sol. gen. they have owned the thing in middlesex , that we insist upon , and they have not owned it with any qualification ; if they had said , it was done in another county , then you must have taken it to be as they said it ; then if they do not distinguish the place of the fact , your lordship can only take it to be where they owned it , it would be supposed to be done in that place , for when they owned the fact ; it will be supposed , if they do not say where it was done , that it was done where they owned it , because the king cannot tell where it was done ; but the evidence comes out of their own mouths , they may give satisfaction where it was done , for they know it ; and till that be done , the supposition is against them , that it was done in the place where they owned it ; and that is a plain case , wheresoever a man is to speak of his own fact. indeed if i publish the writing of another person which is libellous , then there must be a particular proof of the place , because it is flot my own fact ; but if those lords publish a libell that they make themselves , it is in their own knowledge , and in their own power to tell where it was done ; because it is their own act and dead : it is true , if my lords had published a paper that was contrived by some of their council , it had been some excuse , and they must have only suffered for that publication in the place where it was done ; but they are here for writing this they have owned in this county , and therefore i●…●…es upon them to prove it done elsewhere . there is another objection , my lord , made , that here is no evidence of a publication●… ; my lord , i take it to be a publication in it self ; is it possible for a man to write a libell ? to set his name ? and part with it ? and it coming to the hands of the king , that this is not a publication ? it is not their saying , we did not publish it , that will excuse them ; for can there be a greater publication in it self than this , when men have set their hands to it , and owned their names ? what makes the fact in this case ? if a deed he denied to be factum of such a one , what is the proof of it , but setting the hand and seal , and the delivery ? there is owning the paper , and setting their hands is a publication in it self , and therefore they cannot make any such objection . my lord , if there were occasion , we have authorities enough to this purpose , and we will give them scope enough if they will argue this matter ; and if they have any evidence , we desire to hear what they can say to it . mr. att. gen. as for this matter of fact , my lord , if i take it right , they do not controvert the publishing , but ( say they ) pray make it out , where it was written or composed ; i confess this would be a business worth the while , for all persons that act in this manner , and are concerned in making of libels , to understand for their advantage , no man doubts in the matter of treason , but it is local : then put the case a man is found in middlesex with a treasonable paper in his pocket , i do not make a comparison , as if this was such a paper , i hope i am not so understood , but i only put it as a case , and that the law is so , is beyond all controversie ; then the man is indicted here in midds . for framing and composing such a treasonable libell , and he comes to be tryed , and ( says he ) pray prove where i made and composed it , for though you found it in my pocket , in the county of midds . yet i might doe it in the county of york ; upon my word , this had been a very good defence for mr. sidney , who was indicted , convicted , and attainted , for making a treasonable paper which was found in his study ; might not he have put the same objection ? might not mr. sidney have said ( it was great pity he did not understand it ) pray prove where i did it , for i did it elsewhere than in this county . — mr. sol. gen. he did say it , i remember . mr. att. gen. truly , my lord , i would not hear any answer given to this , for it would make the king in a very woful case ; here is a paper that is found in the county of midds . and this is there owned by you to be written and subscribed by you ; pray do you prove it , that it was written elsewhere . mr. serj. pemb. my lord , we will doe it , we will be governed by mr. attorney for once . mr. serj. levinz . we will prove that my lord archbishop was not in middlesex , in seven months before ; and truly i think mr. attorney's case of a paper found about a man , or in his custody , will not come up to our case ; for was this paper found about us , surely that is not pretended . mr. serj. pemb. your lordship sees by the very frame of the petition , that this petition which they call a libell , was made after the king's order concerning reading this declaration : now we shall prove that my lord archbishop , whose hand-writing they prove this to be , was not out from lambeth-house in two months before , nor till he was before the council . sr. rob. sawyer . which was long after that time when it was made . mr. serj. pemb. so that this cannot be written in the county of middlesex . — call francis nicholls . — mr. nicholls was sworn . sir r. sawyer . do you remember the th of may last ? mr. nicholls . yes , sir. sir. r. sawyer . pray how was it with my lord archbishop of canterbury at that time , and before that , did he go abroad ? mr. nicholls . my lord , i am very sure that my lord his grace of cant. whom i have served in his bed chamber this seven years , never stirred out of the gate of lambeth . house since michaelmas last . sir r. sawyer . till when , mr. nicholls ? mr. nicholls . not till the time he was summoned before the councill . mr. serj. pemb. now i hope we have given them a full proof that it could not be in middles . — call thomas smith . mr. smith was not examined . mr. finch . truly , my lord , i think that what we have proved or what proof we further offer of my lord of canterburies not being in middlesex for so long a time , is ex abundanti , and we need it not ; for with humble submission , in point of law , it is incumbent upon them that are to prove the charge in the information , to prove where it was done ; because , the locality of it is part of the thing , they ought to prove it ; in it's nature it is local , there is a place assigned in the inform●…ion , and unless they prove it was done in the place that they have laid , they have not proved the charge in the information . now , my lord , they have not made any proof of that , and for proof of publication , i think they have offered none to your lordship , they never did call it so yet , and truly i never did hear or know that the owning of their hands at the council-table was a publication of a libel ; it is owning the writing , but it is not an owning where the writing was made ; but where it was written , and where it was made , is of necessity to be proved ; before the charge upon a record , in a court of justice , can be said to be made out , it is a local charge , and in justice , the locality must be proved , or the information fails ; my lord , they have offered no proof to it , and they have not yet gone to the second part of the information , for as to the publication of it , there is not a tittle of proof offered , but only the owning of their hands upon their examination at the council , and no man did ever yet think that the answering a question , and owning a paper at the council-table , upon a question put by the king himself was a publication of a libel . mr. serjeant baldock . pray , my lord , hear me a word to that ; though the thing be never so local , yet there must be some place where a thing that was done , was done : then if nothing else appears , but what was done in westminster , in the county of middlesex , unless they shew the contrary , that must be the very place where it was done . mr. sollicitor general . here is a great deal of prevarication in this matter , and i would observe to your lordship how they do use the court ill in it ; pray , my lord , what is it we are upon ? we are proving that these seven lords , the bishops signed this paper ; and i think we have proved it sufficiently out of their own mouths : but ( say they ) it was not signed in the county of middlesex , but in the county of surrey . all this is but imagination , and they would have the court to imagine it too ; for how do they prove it ? they would have your lordship and the jury believe , that it was signed elsewhere , because my lord archbishop has not been out of his house in some months before ; it is all but inference , and argument , and imagination . but still , gentlemen , do you answer what i objected to you ? does it not lie in their power to shew where it was signed ? here are six more , besides the archbishop , where was it signed by them ? here are six of the bishops , that it does not appear where they signed it ; but they confess at white-hall , in middlesex , that they did set their hands — mr. serjeant levinz . ay , they did so , and what then ? mr. solicitor general . ay , and ay too ; if they did so , the presumption and common intendment upon such evidence is , that is was done in the place where it was owned ; and the rather , for that reason that i said before , that it lies in their knowledge , and therefore it is incumbent upon them to prove , that it was not in the county of middlesex : so that this objection i take rather to be an invention of the counsel than the truth of the fact , because they that can make this out , do not . and as to what they say of my lord archbishop , that he has not been out of doors for so long , who can prove such a thing ? certainly my lord was able to come , for any thing that appears ; he has been here twice , and he was able to come to the council-board : but when all is done , my lord archbishop is certainly able to put this matter out of doubt , for he may easily prove it , if the fact be so , and that will satisfie the court and every body , that it was signed by him at lambeth ; if he designs to deal sincerely with your lordship and the court , and the jury ; but certainly it is not to be proved by a circumstance , such a one as this is , but he ought to give your lordship and the jury satisfaction about this fact : he ought to say , 't is true , i did sign it , but it was at lambeth-house ; that indeed would be a down-right stroke to us : but to go upon a supposition , that because my lord archbishop was not out of his house for so long together , therefore they are all not guilty , is a very hard and foreign inference . my lord , there 's another matter that they insist upon ; and that is about the publication , that is as plain as any thing can be , that here is a full proof of a publication , for if the paper be libellous , where-ever that paper is , that is a publishing , where-ever the paper travels , how far soever it goes , it is a publication of it by these persons that signed it : i believe no body thinks that this should fly into the king's hand , but some body brought it to him ; and certainly , my lord , if your opinion should be , that this paper is libellous , then where ever it is , it is a publishing , which is our offence ; where-ever it is found , it is a publ●…tion ; for there is the mistake of these gentlemen , they fancy , that unless there was a publick delivery of this paper abroad , nothing can be a publication ; but i rely upon it , they setting their names to it , made it their paper ; and where-ever it was afterwards found , that did follow the paper where-ever it went , and was a publication of it ; it was in their power , being their own contrivance ; it was made and formed by themselves , and no body will believe , when it was their own hands that they put to it , that any body else could have any power over it ; for ought appears , no body else was at work about it , and when there were so many learned prelates that had signed such a paper , no one can believe they would let it go out of their hands , but by their consent and direction : is not this a proof of the publishing ? do they give your lordships any evidence that they had stifled this paper ? if they had so done , they had said something , but will any body believe that this thing was done in vain ? can any body assign a reason why so solemn a thing as this should be done to no end and purpose ? why a paper should be framed that rails at the kings two declarations ? why a paper that gives reasons why they could not read it in their churches , and signed with such solemnity by all these noble lords , we submit this to you in point of law , and the law is plain in it , that if this paper be libellous , and it is found in the county of middlesex , there is a publication of that libel . i shall mention to your lordship that case of williams , which is reported in the second part of roll's reports , mr. finch made use of it in the case of sidney ; it was the great case relied upon , and that guided and governed that case ( as i apprehend ) from the verdict and judgment that was given in it . this case was iacobi . it seems williams was a barrister of the inner-temple , and it seems being an high catholick for opinion and judgment , he was expelled the house , and he being so expelled ( being a sort of a vertuoso ) w●…ote a book called baalam's ass , and therein he makes use of the prophecy of the prophet daniel , and he makes application of it according to his own particular fancy . he writes there , that this world was near at an end ; and he said , those ill days were come that that prophecy had spoken of , and because of the impurity of prince , and priest , and people , and other things that happened , those were the worst of days , and therefore the last ; and that certainly we had the worst prince that ever was in the world , when he wrote this book , what does he do ? he was a little more close than my lords the bishops , and pins it up , or seals it up , and it was brought to the king ; and what is this more than the case before your lordship ? they indeed say , i do this by way of advice to the king ; so , said he , i do this by way of advice to the king , for god forbid that any of this should happen to the king , and so what he does was by way of advice , and he prayed god to avert it from him ; here was as good a prayer as there is in this paper ; and there was a good design , he made use of the prophet daniel , and applied his words . well , what was done upon it ? this was never published ; for the question was before the court , whether this sealing of it up , and not delivering it to any other body were a publication , the court was of opinion , that the very writing of it was a publication ; they did not value the delivery of it to the prince , but it was proved he writ it , and that made it treason . my lord , we have cases enough in my lord hobart for this matter , sir baptist hick's case , and my lady hatt●…n's case , there was only a letter sealed up and delivered to the party . l. c. i. you need not trouble your self about that mr. solicitor . mr. sol. gen. if the case then be thus , i take it , it will turn upon this fact ; they have given your lordship no proof where this paper was signed by them ; here are seven persons that had a hand in it , and here is only one person whom they have insisted to be infirm , and kept his house for a great while together . we say the publishing follows the libel where-ever it goes ; the libel is in the county of middlesex , they have confessed it in the county of middlesex , and they did not distinguish where it was done . then if they will not distinguish upon the evidence , no man ought to distinguish , but ought to presume it was done in that place where they owned it . mr. attor . gen. i did not apprehend we were got so far , that they opposed us in the publication . sir rob. sawyer . yes we did , for you have given no evidence of it . mr. attor . gen. surely , my lord , for that we have give a sufficient evidence , and they have given some proof of it , as to my lord archbishop ; that because he had not been from lambeth , therefore he did not publish , nor could cause it to be published ; for your lordship sees by this information , they are not only to answer the publicavit , but also the publicari causavit ; for do you doubt , gentlemen , of the law in this case , that if i compose a libel in surrey , for example , and send a person over into middlesex , i am not guilty of the publishing ? sir rob. sawyer . that is not your case , mr. attorney . mr. finch . that were clear if it were so , but it is not so . mr. attor . gen. my lord archbishop's case signifies nothing , if we shew it was published in middlesex , and you give no evidence to the contrary but it might be there ; and i am sure as to the rest of my lords the bishops , there is no evidence at all given . here is a petition that we say is a libel , they it may be will make that a question ; this is delivered to the king 's own hand in the county of middlesex , and there are as many cases as any one man can name , that this amounts to a publication by the party ; for if i send a letter by the post sealed , that no body can see but the party himself , and he that writ it , it is adjudged over and over again , it is a libel . mr. justice powel . that you need not labour , mr. attorney , for that 's the case of williams of essex ; but how do you apply it to the case now before us ? mr. attor . gen. that 's an answer to their objection as to the publication . mr. justice powel . but what say you to the first part , you have not proved that it was written in middlesex . mr. attor . gen. there is the case of barrow and lewellin in hobart , and likewise the case of sir baptist hicks , which is reported both in hobart and in popham ; and in popham , towards the end of the case , there is a remarkable passage . says that case , if it should not be punishable at the suit of the king , there would be no remedy ; for the party cannot bring an action , because he can be no witness for himself , and it is only known betwixt them two ; but a witness for the king he may be , to prove his own receipt of the letter , and the party's hand . mr. justice powel . you need not labour that point , i 'll tell you , mr. attorney ; for the law is very clear in that point , i think , if you bring it home to your case . mr. attor . gen. then here 's the case in short , my lord ; that my lords the bishops have caused to be made and written this petition , they are made parties to it by setting their names , and this is a continued act ; whatsoever is written there is my lord archbishop's writing , where-ever it goes , as i 'll put you a case that 's very well known . if i take away goods from a man in the county of cumberland , and i am found with them in the county of middlesex , it is a continued act , and makes all but one felony , and i shall be tried here in middlesex for it : if a man write a thing in one county , and it is sent and dispersed in another county , that still continues to be his fact , though it may be the first part was not in the same county with the other ; but suppose all this while that part should not affect my lord of canterbury , the causing it to be published does . mr. justice powel . do you think , mr. attorney , that writing in one county is such a continued act , that he may be said to write it in another county ? mr. attor . gen. sir i take it , where there is a complicated crime of writing and publishing a libel , and the beginning of it is in one county , and the carrying it on is in another , that is a continued act , and may be tried in either county . l. c. i. it is all one act of libelling ( as they say . ) mr. iust. holloway . in cases of felony 't is so , taking in one county , and being found with the goods in another , it is felony in either county . mr. iust. powel . but in that case they are two felonies ; for it is robbery in the one county , and but bare felony in the other . mr. sol. gen. suppose that my lords the bishops signed this paper in another county , and my lord archbishop consents to have it sent into middlesex , is not this a causing it to be published in another county ? mr. iust. powel . yes , it may be , if you prove his consent . mr. sol. gen. then suppose further , which may very well consi●…t with my lord archbishop's evidence , of his not being out of lambeth in so long time , the rest of the bishops might sign it in middlesex , or it may be in that place ; and then they carry it by my lords consent over hither , into this county , is not this a causing it to be published ? the delivery with his consent certainly is a proof of that , for our information goes two ways , for making , contriving , writing and publishing , that 's one : and then , for causing it to be made , contrived and published , that 's the other : and if i prove that he caused it to be published , he may be found guilty as to that part , and not guilty as to the other ; for the information is not so intire , but that the king has his choice , if the archbishop had not signed it , or written it , but had caused it to be published , he may be found guilty of so much : but if he be guilty of any one of these things , it is enough ; and if he be guilty of none of the other things laid in the information ; yet if he be guilty of causing it to be published , by his consenting that the rest of the bishops should do it , that will be enough to maintain this information . then , my lord , is there any evidence brought against what we have proved , that he did not consent ? mr. just. powel . but where was this consent of his given , mr. solicitor ? mr. sol. gen. pray , good sir , give me your favour , i think i am in a plain case . mr. serj. pemberton . so you are truly . mr. sol. gen. why , good sir , you ought to make out the locality , if you 'l take advantage of it . mr. serj. pemberton . that 's very well indeed , this is the first time i ever heard that doctrine . mr. sol. gen. i cannot help that , but certainly the law is plain , we have proved there was such a fact as this done ; and they do not go about to prove that it was done elswhere than where we have laid it ; for if they did , their witnesses would be cross-examined by us ; and then we know what would become of them , then the truth of the matter would come out : therefore i would make all this constare . the archbishop might be at lambeth , and yet guilty in middlesex , by his concurrence with what was done in middlesex : and i say , my lord , this is natural , upon the evidence that has been given , because when they were interrogated at the council , and confessed the paper to be theirs , they made no such explanation of their confession , of which they can make any advantage in their defence . here has been no body produced that proves any thing to be done out of middlesex ; so that still if he 's guilty of the fact proved , he must be guilty in middlesex . serjeant baldock . and it does not appear , in this case , but that my lord archbishop might write the same thing in middlesex , tho' he was at lambeth so long as the witness speaks of . mr. just. powel . how do you make out that , brother ? serj. baldock . he might do it when he c●…me over to the council . sir rob. sawyer . he must do it after it was presented . serj. baldock . might he not be so long here on this side the water , as to make such a short thing as this , before it was delivered ? half a quarter of an hour would have done it . l. ch. iust. that 's a thing not to be presumed , brother , especially since he is proved not to have been in middlesex for so long together . sir rob. sawyer . mr. serjeant is mightily mistaken , for it is not pretended , that it was delivered at the time when the archbishop , and my lords the bishops , were before the council . mr. recorder . either the making and contriving , or the publishing of this libel will do upon this information , for they shall be taken to be one continued complicated act ; and then the party may be tryed in either of the counties , as the king will ; as in the case of treason , it has been over and over again adjudged : that if a man does one act of treason in one county , and afterwards goes into another county , and does another act of treason , the jury of either of the counties may enquire of the fact done in the other . if they then should take those two as several acts , they were several offences , and they may be found guilty of the one and acquitted of the other ; but if they are taken as one continued act , they are but one offence , and the jury of either county may try it . if then , in this case , the jury of this county may take notice of the publication , which was here , as certainly they may , if they will agree , as the law certainly is ; that the writing of a letter will be a sufficient publication , if the matter be libellous . and there are multitudes of precedents for that ; and that the bare setting of a man's hand has been adjudged to be a publication : then give me leave , my lord , to bring it to a similar case ; suppose a man write a scandalous letter from london , to a judge or magistrate in exeter ; and sends it by the post , and the letter is received from the post at exeter , and there opened ; would any man make a question whether the gentleman that sent the letter may not be indicted and prosecuted for a libel at exeter , where the libel was received ? mr. just. powel . there 's no question of that , mr. recorder ; that comes not home to the fact in our case , undoubtedly in the case that you put , the law is as you said , but it is far different from this case . l. ch. iust. there 's no body opposes the publication , but the framing of it where it was made . mr. recorder . supposing then the party were at exeter ; and he were interrogated before the magistrate , whether that were his hand or no ? and he should own it to be his hand ; can any body doubt whether his owning that to be his hand , would be a sufficient evidence to prove a publication ? mr. just. powel . but is that any evidence where it was written ? or if it be not proved that it was received at exeter , would that be a proof of a publication at exeter ? l. ch. iust. they do not deny the publication . sir rob. sawyer . we do deny that there was any publication ; and they have proved no place where it was made . mr. sol. gen. my lord , we are not for turning my lords the bishops out of the way of proof , that is usual in such cases ; let them take it if they will , that this was contrived and made in surrey . but can they publish it in middlesex , without committing an offence ? and that is it we stand upon : we are not for laying a greater load upon my lords the bishops than our proof will answer . sir rob. sawyer . we thank you for your complement , mr. solicitor . mr. sol. gen. is this a fare way , of interrupting us when we are speaking ? durst any one have served you so when you were in the kings service ? we would make our duty as easie as we can to my lords the bishops ; and it may be easier than other men would have made it . but my lord , let it be a doubtful case , that we cannot tell which county it was made and contrived in , if it were made and contrived in another county ; yet when they brought it into middlesex , there was a publication in middlesex ; and if my lord of canterbury consented to it , and if he caused it to be published , how can any body ever get him off from that causing of it to be published ? here is a paper that must be supposed to be my lord archbishops paper : now either the world must look upon it to be an imposture put upon my lords the bishops , or a real paper made by them . if it were an imposture and an affront put upon the bishops , they ought to make it out for their own vindication , and to prove themselves innocent : if they do that , they do well , and they ought to have satisfaction ●…de them by those that have so highly injured them ; and the king cannot be better pleased , i am sure , than to find them so : but if men will look one way and act another , they must expect to be dealt with accordingly . will any man that has heard this evidence , and sees that these gentlemen will not go the right way to work to prove their own innocence , believe them to be not guilty ? 't is plain they contrived it and signed it ; for can any one imagine that they set their hands to a paper that was not formed and contrived by themselves ? then let it go , that this was done in another county , and we cannot punish the writing of it in this county ; yet still they are guilty of causing it to be published in this county , and for that we may punish them here : we will be content with having that found that we have proved , which certainly is an offence . sir rob. sawyer . we oppose that , sir. mr. sol. gen. you oppose it , i know you 'l oppose common sense , we don't speak to you , we speak to the court ; we are content with what is plain , and do not desire to insist upon any strained construction ; we say this is natural evidence for us ; if this thing be a libel , as we say it is , then the causing it to be published , is an offence : the publication we ●…ay was here in middlesex , and of that there is clear evidence , because it was found there , and came from the king's hand , to whom it was directed , and it could not come to the king's hand out of their custody , without their consent : this ( we say ) is a clear evidence of causing it to be published , let the rest go as it will , because we will take the easiest part of the case , and not go upon strains . mr. serj. trinder . the greatest question is , i think , now come to the publishing — l. ch. iust. the court is of opinion , that its coming to the king is a publishing . mr. justice powel . ay , my lord , if it be proved to be done by them . mr. serjeant pemberton . before the court deliver their opinion , we desire to be heard . l. ch. iust. brother , you shall be heard in good time , but let them make an end on the other side , and when the king's counsel have done we 'l hear you . mr. serjeant trinder . my lord , upon the question of publishing , it has been insisted upon , and the court seems to be very much of the same opinion ; that the writing of it is a publishing : that it is without controversie , if the writing of it fell out to be in middlesex , where the information is laid ; but that they would not have to be so by argument , because the archbishop had kept in at lambeth so long . but suppose , that it were so as they would have it ; that is only as to the archbishop , he being the writer of it , but yet notwithstanding , that the other six might subscribe it in middlesex , taking it , that there is such a face in their argument as they would have it . mr. sol. gen. we will lay no greater load on the other six than we do upon my lord archbishop , and we say they are all guilty of the publication in middlesex . mr. serjeant trinder . pray sir , spare me ; this paper was in the archbishops custody and power , he making of it himself ; and regularly it could not have come out of his custody , in common supposition , but it must come with his consent . it was afterwards in the power of the other six , they had it to subscribe ; where the subscription was non const●… , they it may ●…e can prove it themselves , but i will only deduce this argument ; that if it after comes into middlesex , it must be taken by presumption to be subscribed by them there and published , it must taken by presumption so to be . lord ch. iust. no brother , we ought not to do any thing by presumption here . mr. just. powel . no , no , by no means , we must not go upon presumptions but proofs . l. ch. iust. i will not presume it to be made in middlesex . mr. serj. trinder . but it is proved to be published in middlesex . sir robert sawyer . my lord , with submission , there is no evidence of the publication . mr. attor . gen. that the court is to judge of . sir rob. sawyer . pray , good my lord , what instance of a publication have they given ? mr. sol. gen. the court has heard ●…he evidence , we leave it there . sir rob. sawyer . was it their owning and acknowledging it was their hands , when the king asked them the question at the council-table ? surely the king's counsel won't pretend that was a publication , when it was done at the king's command ; it was certainly the king that published it then , and not my lords the bishops . mr. attor . gen. well said . sir rob. sawyer . don't you remember that when sir blathwayt said the king gave it to be read , and it was shewed to the bishops ? l. ch. iust. i remember what evidence mr. blathwayt gave of the passages at the council-board very well ; and i know what mr. attorney did press about the kings promising to take no advantage . mr. attor . gen. my lord , mr. attorney is on the other side , he did not press it . l. ch. iust. sir robert sawyer ( i mean ) , i beg both your pardons , gentlemen , i think i have done injury to you both . sir rob. sawyer . my lord , we say there is no evidence at all , that ever this was sent to the king by the archbishop , or any of my lords the bishops : and as for the cases that they have put , they might have put five hundred cases , and all nothing to the purpose . mr. sol. gen. so they might , and done just as others had done before them . sir rob. sawyer . and so are these ; for here is the question , we are in a case , where the publication is that which makes it a crime : now i would have them ( if they can ) put me any such case , and then apply it to this ; in william's case , the question is quite otherwise , and so in any case of treason it must be ; where-ever there is an overt act proved , it is the treasonable intention , and the ill mind of the traytor that is the crime , and the treason ( the overt act ) is only to be the evidence of it : in that case of williams , with submission , my lord , the publication was not at all necessary , but the very secretest act that could be done by him ( if it were an act ) is an evidence of the mind , and so the sending of the book to the king himself , though no body else did see it , was an evidence of the crime of treason , yet it could not be called a p●…blication . but in the other case of sir baptist hicks , which was in the star-chamber , about sending a letter of challenge , it was plainly resolved that it was no publication of the letter , and that was not the ground of the judgment given against him there , that it was the publication of a libel , but the very fact was a particular offence ; for ( said the court there ) if you will send a letter to a private man , and that is a letter that will provoke him to break the peace , that is an offence punishable in the star-chamber ; but that is not the reason which was alledged , because no action will lie for want of proof , but quite the contrary ; because they may produce the porter or party that brought it , and prove it that it came from this man's hands ; and i do not question but that in the king's bench at this day , if a man will write a letter privately to provoke another man to fight , there will lie an information , but not for a libel ; for there it will be necessary for to make it an offence , that there be a publication ; for that is the very form of the crime , and upon that ground were all those judgments against libels in the star-chamber . my lord , i agree to write a letter to the king of another person , or to make a petition to the king concerning another person , as of my lord chancellor , or the judges , or the like , to complain to the king of them scandalously , with provoking and reviling language , that is a publication ; and so if i write a letter to one man of another ; if there be scandal in a letter , that is a pub●…cation of a libel ; and that is the difference that has been always taken , where it is essential to make it a libel , that there be a publication , such a publication must be proved , and the delivery of a letter to a man that concerns himself , is no publication , but in this case they have not so much as proved that it was delivered to the king. mr. serj. pemberton . my lord , with your lordship's leave , i take it , that they have given no manner of evidence of a publication ; to say , the writing and subscribing of their names to a paper , is a publication of that paper , is such a doctrine truly as i never heard before ; supposing this paper had lain in my study , subscribed by me , but never went further ; would this have been a publication ? they never said any such thing . as to algernoon sidney's case , there was no colour for it , that it should be a publication ; but it was an overt act of treason to compose such a book ; they have proved by our confession here , that we have subscribed this paper , they would take it now , that therefore it must be presumed we sent this to the king , and so surmise us into an information for making and publishing a libel , which we sent to the king ; but they do not prove it at all : my lord , there are a thousand ways that it might come into middlesex , and perhaps come to the king's hands too , without our knowledge of delivery ; and sure you will not presume these noble persons without evidence to be guilty of such an offence as this is suggested to be ; so that , my lord , and gentlemen of the jury , 't is impossible for you to find this a publication in middlesex ; and for the other thing , ( the writing this paper ) they that would make it an offence , must prove where it was done . mr. ser. levinz . my lord , the answer that i shall give to what has been said on the other side , is very short ; the cases that have been cited are all law , but not one tittle to this purpose : in sir baptist hicks's case , and williams's case , it was proved they all sent them to the places whither they were directed ; but is there a tittle of proof that these bishops sent it here ? in all those cases , they must send it either by a porter or a carrier , and they send it as their own act , and when it comes there , by their sending , that is sufficient proof of their act in the place whither it is sent : and for sidney's case , there was treason in the very libel and book that he made ; and he was not indicted for publishing , but for treason in the place where it was found , because it was found in his possession : but was this ever in my lord archbishops possession in middlesex , or the rest of the bishops and were they publishing of it ? if it had , then it had been their act clearly : but that is the thing wherein they are defective , that they do not prove that my lords the bishops sent or brought it here ; but upon the question asked them by the king , they acknowledged it to be their hands : so that my lord there is no proof of any fact done here , but an acknowledgment of a fact done , no body knows where , upon the king's question here in middlesex ; is that any proof of this information ? mr. finch . pray , my lord , spare me a word on the same side , let us see what the evidence is . the evidence is this , that the king brought the paper to the council-table , and the bishops owned their hands to it : this is the effect of the evidence , and all that is to prove the forming and making a libel in middlesex ; and the publication of that libel . and what is therefore inferred from thence ? why , having proved that the king brought the paper to the council-table , and the bishops owned their hands : therefore , first the bishops made this libel in middlesex . secondly , they brought it to the council-table , and published it at the council-table , or else there is no proof at all : for here is nothing of evidence given of any fact , but because they acknowledged it , therefore they made it , therefore they gave it to the king in middlesex : this were good evidence if they had had the help of a supposition to make it good ; but they want that , nor must any such thing be admitted ; but i think they are such gross false consequences , that i doubt not you 'l be of opinion , here 's no proof of a publication in middlesex , and then there is no proof at all against my lords the bishops . mr. pollixfen . i must confess i hear them say two acts prove a publication in this case ; the one is , the writing of the libel , and the subscribing . if so , then i think upon the evidence that has been given , the court must needs be satisfied , that the writing of it was in surrey : the next is , their owning their hands ; for there is no act done that appears , or any evidence against them of any act done , from the time of the writing , to the time that they were asked , is this your hand ? surely no man would ever think this to be a publication , where one is asked by authority , whether such a paper be his hand , and he acknowledges 〈◊〉 in answer to that question ; to turn this to be a crime , i think it can never be done , nor never was done before . then there is nothing in the case , that they can hold to for evidence , and proof against my lords the bishops , but the writing ; and that is apparent to have been in surrey , or otherwise they must hold that the answer to the king's question , this is my hand , is a publication . but truly , my lord , i think neither of these will do : but my lord , to me this is a great evidence in it self against the proof of a publication , the care and wariness that has been used , that there should be nothing at all of this matter known , from the time that it was written , to the time that they came to be examined and summoned to appear as offenders . my lord , the nature of libels is to publish and proclaim scandal and defamation , or else it loses its end , and consequently its name : this , as it stands upon their evidence , is a monstrous proof for my lords the bishops , against the king's council ; for it seems , 't is a very private matter , so cautiously and warily carried , that there is not any evidence of the fact , but only the names of the persons that writ it , till they come to be examined by the greatest authority , is this your hand ? and then they own it so to be ; how can this be taken to be a publication ? and it will be a thing of wonderful consequence , if an answer to a question put by authority , should amount to a crime , as it would in this case , that would be as if authority that should be employed to do right , would be turned to do the greatest wrong ; for it is the duty of all men to answer when examined by a lawful authority , and it would never be offered at sure in any other case : if a man comes before a magistrate , and confesses any thing , that indeed is evidence , but is not a crime ; for there is a great deal of difference between evidence and the crime ; but that this should be both an evidence and a crime too , is , i think , a very strange construction ; and for the other part ( the writing of it ) i suppose the court is satisfied that it was in another county . sir geo. treby . i desire your lordship to spare me a word , which i think has not been observed by the council that have spoke before . the question that remains , is , whether my lords the bishops did publish this paper ? this is a matter of fact that lies upon the prosecutors to prove . now i think they are so far from having proved that the bishops did publish it , that on the contrary , they have proved that their lordships did not publish it . the evidence they have offered for this matter is a confession . this confession is testified by mr. blathwayt , and he says the bishops were ask'd at the council whether they did subscribe and publish this paper , and that their answer was that they did subscribe but not publish it . now a confession must be taken together , and must be admitted to be intirely true by them that produce it ; they shall never be allowed to take out and use one piece , and wave the rest . why then by this evidence of confession , taken as it ought , it appears that the bishops ( though they did subscribe ) did not publish the paper . so that , i say , the king's counsel have hereby plainly proved that the bishops did not publish this paper , and yet this is the onely evidence upon which they would infer that they did publish it . mr. att. gen. look you , it does lie upon you gentlemen to prove it was done elsewhere than in middlesex . mr. finch . sure mr. attorney is in jest . mr. att. gen. no , i am in good earnest , all the proof that we have given has been in middlesex , and you can best tell whether you did it in middlesex or no. mr. finch . my lord , we have done as to this objection ; for we say they have not proved their case . l. ch. iust. mr. finch you may observe ( and i am sure you do observe as well as any body in all cases , ) but i say you may observe that they are off of every thing but causing it to be published ; now that does lie upon the king's counsel to prove , that my lords the bishops did cause it to be published , for their owning of their hands does not amount to a publication . mr. s. pemberton . my lord , we are upon this point with them , whether here be any evidence of a publication at all . mr. iust. powell . pray let us clear this first ; for if there be no publication , there can be no causing of it to be published . mr. att. gen. my lord , if you think fit , we shall go on and reserve this point till afterwards . mr. sol. gen. they may make objections , if they think fit . l ▪ 〈◊〉 . iust. so they may , and they say if these objections are with us , we need go no farther . mr. s. pemberton . but ; my lord , if they be not with us , we have a reserve to give a farther answer to it and to offer evidence against the evidence they have offered . mr. sol. gen. with all our hearts , give in evidence what you can . mr. att. gen. then pray my lord let us go on to answer this objection . l. ch. iust. pray do mr. attorney . mr. att. gen. my lord and gentlemen of the jury , i would first observe how far we have gone . that there was such a paper written is clear beyond all question , and written by my lord archbishop of canterbury , and that it was signed by the rest of the bishops , but not in the county of middlesex , and that this paper was published is agreed on all hands . mr. iust. holloway . no they do not agree that . mr. att. gen. do i say it was published by them ? but there was such a paper published . mr. s. pemberton . no , we say it was never published at all . l. ch. iust. pray brother pemberton be quiet , if mr. attorney in opening does say any thing that he ought not to say , i will correct him , as i would do any body that does not open things right as they are proved , but pray don 't you that are at the bar interrupt one another , it is unbecoming men of your profession to be chopping in and snapping at one another — go on mr. attorney . mr. att. gen. i say , that the paper is proved to be written and signed by my lords the bishops , that i take for granted , and that the paper so signed and written is now published to the world , is also evident ; but the question is who it was done by , or who caused it to be done , we are reduced to that question : now , first , it is agreed on all hands , that if i send a letter to a private man containing scandalous things in it , though there is no proof more , but that it was sent sealed and received by the party , in that case it was a fault punishable in the star-chamber , as a crime ; but now that this was received by the king , and written by them , there is no room for doubt ; for you hear it was produced by the king at the council-board , and they asked upon it , if it were their hands ? that the king did receive it , there is no room for question , or that they did write it ; but the question is , from whom the king had it ? i am sure they must shew that some body else did it ; and unless they doe show that , i hope there is no manner of question , but it came from them , and they did it ; though no man living knew any thing of this matter , but whom they thought fit to communicate it to ; yet still they putting the king upon the necessity of shewing this power in order to his obtaining satisfaction for it , or else he must remain under the indignity without reparation , it ought to be put upon them to clear the fact ; for if he does not produce it , then must the king put up the highest injury and affront , that perhaps a man can give the king to his face , by delivering a libel into his own hands ; and if he does produce it , then say they , that is not our publication , we prove it to be your writing and signing , and we prove it to come from the hand of the king against whom it was composed , for we say it is a libel against his majesty , his government and prerogative ; if then , all those cases that have been cited be law , then sure there never was a stronger case in the world than this ; and i hope the law goes a little farther in the case of the king , than it does in the case of a private man ; no man must think by policy to give private wounds to the government , and disparage the administration of it , and then when he is called in question about it , says he , pray prove that i published it , or else you shall not punish me for it , we prove you framed it and writ it and signed it , and we prove it came to the king's hand , of whom it was composed , must we produce two witnesses of the delivery of it to the king ? surely there will be no need of any thing of that . mr. sol. gen. my lord , we have reduced it now to a very narrow question , for ( as mr. attorney has said ) my lord , there is no doubt but that my lords the bishops are the authours of this paper , there is no doubt but they signed it , and there is no doubt but that their signing of it , though it were at lambeth ( as they say ) is a publishing of it , but however this is plain and manifest , that this paper was published , and that this paper was publi●…d in middlesex , that is as plain too ; now then there is nothing left but this question , whether my lords the bishops who framed the thing , who wrote the thing , who signed the thing , were not the occasion or cause of its publication , or privy or consenting to it ; my lord , i will reduce it to a very plain point ; for we are upon a rational question , before a rational court , and a rational jury , whether these lords did all of them in the county of surry , consent to the publishing of this paper in middlesex ; for it is published in middlesex , ( that we see , ) and if they are guilty of that part of the information , of causing it to be published , now what do they say to it , say they , it is agreed that it is published in middlesex , but it is not proved to be published by us . lord ch. iust. no , they do not say so , they agree it was in middlesex , but not published . mr. iust. powel . mr. solicitor , they do agree it was in middlesex , but not published to be sure , not by them . lord ch. iust. mr. solicitor , i 'll tell you what they stand upon , they say you ought to prove it to be delivered to the king by the bishops , or some body employed by them ; for upon that went the resolution that was in william's case , that he sent it to the king ; but here is no body that proves that it was delivered to the king in this case , so that how it came to the king non constat . mr. sol. gen. there will be the question between us , whether this be not a publication . sir rob. sawyer . pray mr. solicitor prove your case before you argue it . lord ch. iust. first settle what the case is , before it be either proved or argued . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i 'll put you the case , here does appear in middlesex a paper that is a libel in it self , and this libel is proved to be written and formed by these persons , this libel coming into middlesex , the question is , whether they are privy to it , i say in point of presumption , it must come from them . lord ch. iust. i cannot suppose it , i cannot presume any thing . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i speak of that which is a common presumption , a natural presumption , what we commonly call a violent presumption , which is a legal presumption , and has always been allowed for evidence ; now whether there be not such a presumption in our case , as to induce your lordship and the jury to believe that it cannot be otherwise , or at least to put the labour upon them , to shew how it came out of their studies , and how it came to the king's hands , for it is in their power to shew the truth of this matter , how it was , if they do not , the presumption will lie upon them ; that the paper came to the king , that is plain enough , and its coming to the king's hands , is a plain proof of a publication in middlesex , and who should bring it to the king , but these gentlemen in whose power it was ? there is no man undertakes to say , he lost it , then what else is to be believed , but that it came from them , i speak of common supposition and belief , they may very well shew it if it were not so ; all that we can say in it , is , here is a paper in middlesex , this you agreed was once your paper , and in your power , pray shew what became of it , it lies upon you to clear this doubt . mr. recorder . my lord , there is but this question in the case , the question is not , whether the owning it be a publication , but whether here be any evidence that they did deliver it to the king ; now if they did deliver it to the king , that will be agreed to me to be a publication . mr. ius . holloway . no doubt of it , if you can prove it . mr. recorder . pray sir spare me , that they did it you have this evidence ; first , that they were the authours of this paper by their own confession , that this was in the county of middlesex , and that when they were asked concerning it , they owned it to be their hand writing ; now whether you can in the least question after all this , their delivering of it to the king , or that it came to the king's hands without their knowledge or consent , is that which lies before your lordship for your judgment . lord chief iustice. i will ask my brothers their opinion , but i must deal truly with you , i think it is not evidence against my lords the bishops . mr. iust. holloway . truly i think you have failed in your information , you have not proved any thing against my lords the bishops in the county of middlesex , and therefore the jury must find them not guilty . mr. attor . gen. i 'le put you but one case my lord , a man has an opportunity secretly to deliver a libel into the king's hands , when no body is by , and so there can be no proof of the delivery . mr. iust. powel . 't is a dangerous thing mr. attorney on the other side , to convict people of crimes without proof . mr. attorney general . but shall a man be permitted thus to affront the king , and there be no way to punish it . lord chief iustice. yes , there will sure , but it will be a very strange thing if we should go and presume that these lords did it , when there is no sort of evidence of it ; 't is that which i do assure you i cannot do , we must proceed according to evidence and forms and methods of law , they may think what they will of me , but i always declare my mind according to my conscience . mr. s. trinder . but as to that other point whether their owning of it , be a publication , has not been particularly spoke to . lord chief iustice. mr. attorney , and mr. solicitor , if there were enough to raise doubt in the court , so as to leave it to the jury , i would summ up the evidence . mr. solicit . gen. my lord , we know it is with the court , these lords insisted upon it , that it was a great while in their hands , but it seems as far as our evidence has gone hitherto , their confession went no farther than that it was their paper , and we must not extend their confession further than it was ; but i think we shall offer a fair evidence that they did deliver it in the county of middlesex . lord ch. iust. indeed , indeed , you ought to have gone to this mr. solicitor , before the court gave their opinions . mr. solicit . gen. pray call mr. blathwayt again . mr. blathwayt called . lord ch. iust. mr. solicitor , unless you are sure that mr. blathwait is a witness to the publication , 't is but spending the courts time to no purpos●… to call him . mr. solicit . gen. we are sure of nothing , my lord , but we must make use of our witnesses , according to our instructions in our briefs . then mr. blathwait appeared . mr. attor . gen. mr. blathwait you were sworn before . mr. blathwait . yes , sir. mr. attor . gen. your were present when this paper or petition was dell vered by the king , at the council-board . mr. blathwait . yes , i was so sir. mr. attor . gen. do you remember any thing of the bishops acknowledging their delivery of it to the king. mr. sol. gen. mr. blathwait i would ask you , was there any mention or discourse with my lords the bishops , how that paper came into the king's hands , was there any mention of what it was done for , upon the account of religion or how ? mr. blathwait . i don't remember any thing of that mr. solicitor , at which there was a great laughter . lord ch. iust. pray let us have no laughing , it is not decent , can't all this be done quietly without noise , pray mr. blathwait let me ask you , do you remember there was any discourse how that writing came into the kings hands ? mr. blathwait . i received it from the kings hands , and i know it was presented to him by my lords the bishops . lord ch. iust. how do you know it was presented to the king. mr. blathwait . i heard the king say so several times . mr. sol. gen. pray mind my question sir , first i ask you who produced the paper at the council-table ? mr. blathwait . the king. mr. sol. gen. what said the bishops when that paper was shewed them . mr. blathwait . then ( as i remember ) they were asked , whether that was the paper that they delivered to the king ? mr. sol. gen. then what said the bishops ? mr. blathwait . they at first scrupled to answer , and they said it might be made use of to their prejudice if they owned it . mr. att. gen. pray mr. blathwait consider again , was that the question put to my lords the bishops , whether that was the paper that was presented by them to the king ? mr. blathwait . i do think , to the best of my remembrance , that my lord chancellor did ask them to that purpose , i cannot speak to the very words . mr. sol. gen. and upon this , what answer did they make ? mr. blathwait . my lords the bishops scrupled to answer the first and second time ( as i told you before ) but they did own it was the petition that they presented to the king , to the best of my remembrance . mr. sol. gen. did the archbishop do any thing to own it ? mr. blathwait . yes both my lord archbishop of canterbury and the rest of the bishops did own all the same thing . mr. sol. gen. was this done at whitehall ? mr. blathwait . yes , at the council-table . l. ch. iust. pray recollect your self , and consider what you say , did they own that that was the paper they delivered to the king ? mr. serj. pemb. pray my lord give us leave to ask a question to clear this matter , was the question put to them , whether it was the paper that they delivered , or whether it were their hands that were to it ? mr. blathwait . my lord , i do not so exactly recollect the words . l. ch. iust. but pray tell us , if you can , what the question was ? mr. blathwait . my lord , i do not remember the very words , but i think if mr. serjeant pemberton be pleased to repeat his question , i shall give him a satisfactory answer , as well as i can . mr. serj. pemberton . sir , that which i ask you is this , whether the question that was put to my lords the bishops at that time was , whether this was the paper that they deliver'd to the king , or whether those were their hands that was to it ? mr. blathwait . my lord , i did always think that it was a plain case that that was the paper that they delivered to the king , and my lords the bishops did never deny but that they gave it to the king , and i had it from the king's hands . l. ch. iust. but we must know from you ( if you can tell us ) what the question was that was put to my lords the bishops , were they asked , whether those were their hands that were to that paper , or was it whether they delivered that paper to the king ? mr. blathwait . as to the first part , that they owned 't was their hands , that i am sure of ; but as to the other , i do not remember what the words were . at which there was a great shout . mr. att. gen. pray mr. blathwait recollect your self , you say the king produced it . mr. blathwait . yes sir. mr. att. gen. do you remember that the king asked them any question upon the producing of it ? mr. blathwait . my lord chancellor asked them , if those were not their hands to the petition ? mr. sol. gen. was there any other matter in discourse , whether that was the paper that was delivered by them to the king ? mr. blathwait . i cannot so positively say , what were the words that my lord chancellor used . mr. s. levinz . pray do not twist a man so , mr. solicitor . mr. sol. gen. and you are not to untwist a man neither , mr. serjeant . mr. att. gen. do you remember that the king said any thing of the paper being delivered to him ? mr. blathwait . the king has said it several times , i believe i have heard him say it ten times at least . mr. att. gen. did he say it at that time ? mr. blathwait . i cannot positively say that he did , sir. mr. s. pemb. he cannot answer it , why will you press it ? mr. blathwait . my lord , here is the clerk of the counsel that was then in waiting , he took minutes , and perhaps can remember more than i. mr. sol. gen. here they cry he cannot answer it , as if they could tell what he can answer better than himself ; pray mr. bridgman , was there any question to this purpose either from my lord chancellor , or from the king , whether that was the paper that was presented by my lords the bishops , or delivered by the king , for i see you are very nice as to words , and you do very well ; but was there not a question to that purpose . mr. bridgm. sir , i do not remember , for i speak to the best of my remembrance in all this matter ; i say , i do not remember that that question was asked in those very words , but i do remember something was said to that purpose , but by whom i cannot particularly say . sir rob. sawyer . to what purpose ? mr. sol. gen. it is very strange that they wont let the witness speak , but are continually interrupting him . sir rob. sawyer . mr. solicitor , no body interrupts him . l. c. i. why do not i behave my self between you all as i ought to do ? pray sir rob. sawyer , sit down , you cannot be contented when the man does you no harm . mr. sol. gen. pray consider , did my lords the bishops say any thing , or was there any discourse concerning the paper , whether it was delivered to the king or no ? mr. bridgm. mr. solicitor , i have told you as near as i can what i do remember ; i know not by whom it was said , but that question or to that purpose was asked , whether that was the petition they delivered , but i do not remember whether the question was directly asked or answered , there was something about it , and several passages there were ; but whether spoken by my lord chancellor or who , i cannot remember . mr. sol. gen. you say there was that which sufficiently denoted a question to that purpose , and they said nothing against it . mr. bridgm. no , there was no denial of it . mr. s. g. i see you do not remember the particular words , nor do we desire it of you . mr. bridgm. they did not deny it nor confess it . mr. sol. gen. then in your apprehension did they own that they delivered that paper to the king ? l. c. i. you must not ask that mr. solicitor , it is not a fair question to ask him what he apprehended . mr. sol. gen. he said it before himself . l. c. i. but his apprehensions are no evidence , and it is a sort of a leading question which we must not allow of . mr. sol. gen. then if your lordship do not like it , i will not ask it , but i will ask him another question . l. c. i. ay , ten if you will , so they be fair ones . mr. sol. gen. was it upon the first or second time of their being examined ? mr. bridgm. i cannot tell , it was not the first time , all of it , i believe ; for at the first time my lords the bishops made some scruple of answering or owning any thing , and whatsoever they owned , they said , they hoped it should not be made use of to their prejudice ; i remember no reply that was made , nor any thing farther , onely my lord chancellor said , they were not to capitulate with their prince ; but they were required to answer the questions that were asked them . mr. sol. gen. what were those questions ? mr. bridgm. i have told you already as well as i can remember . mr. sol. gen. but did you take it upon the main that they owned the delivery of that paper to the king ? mr. iust. pow. mr. solicitor , you have been told you are to ask no such questions . s. r. saw. nor never was there such wire-drawing of a witness in this world before . l. ch. iust. pray sit still , sir rob. sawyer , you are not to teach us what we are to do , mr. solicitor must ask questions that are proper for him and not such as these ; but the court must correct him and not you . mr. sol. gen. mr. bridgman is very cautious , and he is to be commended for it , but we would get the truth out of him , if we could , pray sir , if you can remember , recollect your self , whether by any question to that purpose , it was believed that they did own the delivery of the paper to the king. mr. bridgm. i told you , mr. solicitor , as to that at first , that i do not remember the very words of the question , but i believe there was no body doubted that that was not the paper . mr. sol. gen. you speak well in your way , but these gentlemen are very unwilling you should tell your opinion . l. ch. iust. his opinion is no evidence , therefore you must not ask any such questions , mr. solicitor . mr. bridgm. assoon as the petition was delivered , within a few hours after , i saw it , the king shewed it to several people , and he said , it was the petition the bishops had delivered , he took it into his own custody , and afterwards commanded me to write a copy of it , and there was no copy made of it but that one , but notwithstanding that , i do remember i did see a copy of the petition , within a day or two after it was presented about the town . mr. sol. gen. pray how many days was this before the discourse in counsel upon their examination ? mr. bridgm. how many days was what sir ? mr. sol. gen. when the king gave the paper to be copied . mr. bridgm. it was upon the sunday . mr. sol. gen. but you say ( as you believe ) it was in a few hours after the paper was delivered to the king , that you did see it . mr. iust. powel . but what makes him say that this was delivered to the king , but only hear-say ? lord ch. iust. pray mr. solicitor , will you produce that which is evidence , and not spend our time in that which is not . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i would make no more of it than it is . mr. s levinz . 't is a shamefull thing to offer such things in a court of justice . mr. s. pemberton . 't is a practice that ought not to be endured . lord ch. iust. pray brothers be quiet , or i 'le turn him loose upon you again , if you 'l not be quiet ; what is the matter ? cannot you let us alone ? we shall do every body right : come , to shorten this matter , i ask you but this one question , and that may satisfie any one that has honesty about him ; do you remember whether or no they were asked , if that was the petition that they delivered to the king ? mr. bridgm. my lord , i have answered that question as directly as i can , i do not positively remember that that was the question . lord ch. iust. mr. solicitor general , you must be satisfied , when proper questions are fairly answered , and therefore pray be quiet . mr. att. gen. however we pray we may ask the rest of the clerks of the counsel , it may be they may remember more — sir iohn nicholas you were at the council-table that day my lords the bishops were examined about this paper . sir iohn nicholas . yes , sir , i was . mr. att. gen. pray did you observe that the king produced the petition ? sir iohn nicholas . no , indeed , i did not see it . mr. att. gen. did you observe any thing that passed there in discourse ? mr. sol. gen. did you observe any questions that were asked the bishops , either by the king or by my lord chancellor ? sir iohn nich. i think my lord chancellor did ask them , if that was their hands to the petition , and they owned it . mr. sol. gen. do you remember whether they owned , that they delivered that paper to the king ? lord ch. iust. i 'le ask you , sir iohn nicholas , did my lord chancellor ask them this question , is this the petition you delivered to the king ? sir iohn nicholas . i do not remember that . then there was a great shout . mr. sol. gen. here 's wonderfull great rejoycing that truth cannot prevail . mr. s. pemberton . no , mr. solicitor , truth does prevail . mr. sol. gen. you are all very glad that truth is stifled , mr. serjeant . mr. s. trinder . pray sir iohn nicholas , let me ask you one question , was there any discourse about delivering that petition to the king ? sir iohn nicholas . indeed i do not remember it . mr. sol. gen. there is mr. pepy's , wee 'll examine him . mr. pepy's sworn . lord ch. iust. come i 'le ask the questions , were you bye at the council-board when my lords the bishops were committed ? mr. pepy's yes , i was . lord ch. iust. what were the questions that were asked either by the king or by my lord chancellor ? mr. pepy's . my lord , i would remember as well as i could , the very words , and the very words of the question were ( i think ) my lords , do you own this paper ? i do not remember any thing was spoken about the delivering , but i believe it was understood by every body at the table , that that was the paper that they had delivered . lord ch. iust. well have you done now ? but to satisfie you i 'le ask this question , was this question asked , my lords was this the paper you delivered to the king ? mr. pepy's . no , my lord. mr. att. gen. pray sir , do you remember whether the king himself asked the question ? mr. pepy's . you mean i suppose mr. attorney that these were the words , or something that imported their delivering it to the king. mr. att. gen. yes , sir. mr. pepy's . truly i remember nothing of that . mr. sol. gen. did you observe any discourse concerning their delivery of it to the king. mr. pepy's . indeed mr. solicitor i do not . mr. att. gen. swear mr. musgrave . mr. musgrave sworn . lord ch. iust. you hear the question sir , what say you to it ? mr. musg . my lord i will give as short an acount of it as i can , the first time after his majesty had produced the petition and it was read at the board , his grace my lord arch bishop of canterbury and the other six reverend lords bishops were called in , and it were asked of them , if they owned that , or if it was their hands , my lord archbishop in the name of the rest , did decline answering , upon the account that they were there as criminals , and were not obliged to say any thing to their own prejudice , or that might hurt them hereafter ; but if his majesty would command them , and if he would promise that no advantage should be made of whatsoever they confessed , then they would answer the question , his majesty made no answer to that , but only said he would do nothing but what was according to law , whereupon the bishops were ordered to withdraw , and being called in a second time the petition was shewn to them , and they were asked if they did own it , or if it was their hands , and i think my lord archbishop did say then , we will rely upon your majesty , or some such general thing was said , and then they did all own it that it was their hands , i cannot say the petition was read to them . mr. iust. pow. mr. blathwait ( as i remember ) it was the third time . mr. musgrave . it was the second time ( to the best of my remembrance ) lord ch. iust. pray sir , was there any question to this purpose ? is this the paper you delivered to the king ? mr. musg . i do not remember that ever any such direct question was asked . mr. iust. allybone . but ( as my brother pemberton did very well before distinguish ) there is a great deal of difference between the owning the subscription of a paper , and between the owning of that paper , mr. pepy's did say that they did own the paper , and upon my word that will look very like a publication . mr. musg . i remember my lord , there was at the same time a question asked , because several copies had gone about the town , whether they had published it , and my lord archbishop did say , he had been so cautious that he had not admitted his own secretary , but writ it all himself , and the rest of the bishops did say , they did not publish it , nor never gave any copies of it . mr. att. gen. my lord ( i confess ) now it is to be left to the jury upon this point , whether there not being a positive witness that was by when the thing was done , yet upon this evidence the jury can't find any otherwise , than that the thing was done ; truly i think we must leave it as a strong case for the king , i could have wished indeed for the satisfaction of every body , that the proof would have come up to that , but we must make it as strong for the king upon the evidence given as it will bear ; now my lord , take all this whole matter together , here is a paper composed , framed , and written by seven learned men , and this must be written by such persons , sure for some purpose ; it is directed as a petition to the king , and this petition did come to the hands of the king , ( for the king produces it in counsel , ) and my lord archbishop and the rest of the bishops owned their hands to it , then the question is , my lord , whether or no there be any room for any body living to doubt in this case that this was not delivered by my lords the bishops to the king , though it be not a conclusive evidence of a positive fact , yet unless they shew something on the other side , that may give way for a supposition to the contrary , that it came out of their hands by surprize , or that any body else delivered it to the king without their knowledge or consent ; here must needs be a very violent presumption , that they did do it ; and when nothing of that is said on their side , can any jury upon their consciences say that it was not published by them ? and it being found in middlesex , though it might be written and composed in surry , yet surely we have given a convincing evidence that either they published it or caused it to be published in middlesex . pray call mr. grayham . cryer . he is gone out of the hall. mr. sol. gen. my lord , there is in law a presumption that is evidence , though there be no positive proof . sir rob. sawyer . but not in an information for a libel . mr. sol. gen. this is a meer question of fact , there is no difficulty in the law of it at all , for it is plain , if these lords or any of them did consent and agree to the publishing of this paper in middlesex , they are guilty of this information , and whether they are guilty or not guilty , we do rely upon the circumstances proved , which are very violent ; first , that they were the men that contrived and set their hands to it , and so were the authours of it is undenyable ; for they have owned it . men of their learning and parts never did any such thing in vain ; and then that they were concerned in the publishing of it in middlesex , we offer for proof that which was said by mr. pepy's and mr. blathwait , who though they do not come directly and expresly to the formal words of such a question , yet they tell you , especially mr. blathwait , that they did apprehend it , and it was the collection of all their thoughts , and they took it for granted , as a thing that every body was satisfied in , that they did deliver that paper to the king. i must confess and agree there is no proof of the delivery of it by my lords the bishops to the king , but we know very well , that it is no wonder , when a paper is libellous , that men should use all the skill they can to publish it with impunity , and this is a thing that was done after some time of premeditation and serious consultation ; for it was some days after the order for reading the declaration was published , that this was framed and delivered , and it concerned them to be wary , ( as it seems they have been ) ; but take this altogether , my lord , the paper being found in the king's hands , it is in these persons power , and it lies upon them to make it out plain , what became of this paper , which once lay in their own hands and custody ; they can give an account of it , they can give light unto it : if they do not , i shall submit to the jury , whether this is not sufficient evidence to convict them , especially when being examined , they did not make that their excuse , they never said , this paper indeed we signed , but we did not intend to publish it , we intended to stifle it ; that had been some excuse : but for them to say now , they did not present it to the king , i must submit to the jury , whether they will believe upon this evidence , that these lords the bishops did present it , or cause it to be presented to the king , then they are guilty of this matter : and i leave it to them and their consciences , what they will think upon the whole . mr. recorder . my lord , if your lordship please — — lord chief iustice. what , again ? well , go on sir bartho . shore , if we must have a speech — — mr. recorder . nay , my lord , i would not trespass upon your lordship . l. c. iust. gentlemen of the jury , here is an information against my lords the bishops ; i think i need not trouble my self to open all of it , because i see you are men of understanding , men of great diligence , and have taken notes your selves some of you ; therefore , i say , only something of the proof that is required in such a case , and of the manner of the proof that has been given in this case , and then tell you my opinion in point of law. here is an information brought by mr. attorny general on behalf of the king , against these reverend fathers of the church , the arch-bishop and the rest ; and it is for publishing a seditious libel , under the pretence of a petition , in which are contained the words that are seen . gentleman , the information is long , it tells you . that the king , out of his gracious clemency to all his loving subjects , and for other considerations , had thought fit to publish a declaration of indulgence , that all his loving subjects might have liberty of conscience , upon the th of april , in the d year of his reign ; and that this was set forth by the king ; and that the king of his farther grace , about the th of april then next following — — mr. finch . i humbly beg your lordships favour . l. c. iust. what say you , mr. finch ▪ mr. finch . i ask your pardon for breaking in upon you when you are directing the jury : i know i should not do it , but i hope you will not be angry with me for it ? l. c. iust. if i thought you did any service to your client , i should willingly hearken to you . mr. finch . that which i humbly offer to your lordship , is only to remember your lordship where we were . l. c. iust. go on , sir. mr. finch . i would only say this , my lord , the question is , whether this be evidence , or no ? l. c. iust. i am sorry , mr. finch , you have that opinion of me , as to think i should not leave it fairly to the jury . mr. finch . i only speak it , my lord , because if it be evidence , we have other matter to offer in answer to that evidence , and in our own defence . l. c. iust. if you have more to offer , why did you conclude here , and let me begin to direct the jury ? but since you say you have other matter to offer , we will hear it . mr. s. pemberton . my lord , we submit to your lordships direction . l. c. iust. no , no , you do not , you say you have further matter to offer . mr. pollixfen . my lord , we shall rest it here . l. c. iust. no , no , i will hear mr. finch ; go on , my lords the bishops shall not say of me , that i would not hear their counsel ; i have already been told of being counsel against them , and they shall never say that i would not hear their counsel for them . mr. s. levinz . my lord , we beseech your lordship go on with your directions ; for all that mr. finch said , was only that this was not sufficient evidence . l. c. iust. no , brother , he says you have a great deal more to offer , and i will not refuse to hear him ; the court will think there was something more than ordinary , therefore i will hear him , such a learned man as he shall not be refused to be heard by me , i 'le assure you ; why don't you go on mr. finch ? mr. finch . my lord , i beg your pardon for interrupting you ; but all that i was going to say , would have amounted to no more than this , that there being no evidence against us , we must of course be acquitted . mr. just. holloway . my lord did intend to have said as much as that , i dare say . l. c. iust. well , gentlemen of the jury , we have had interruption enough — mr. soll. gen. my lord , i must beg your pardon for interrupting you now ; and i am very glad these gentlemen have given us this occasion , because we shall now be able to clear this point . there is a fatality in some causes , my lord , and so there is in this , we must beg your patience for a very little while , for we have notice that a person of very great quality is coming , that will make it appear , that they made their addresses to him , that they might deliver it to the king. l. c. iust. well — you see what comes of the interruption , gentlemen , now we must stay — — then there was a pause for near half an hour : mr. att. gen. pray , my lord , put the case that a man writes a libel in one county , and it is found in another , is not he answerable , unless he can shew something that may satisfy the jury how it came there ? mr. soll. gen. ought he not to give an account what became of it ? l. c. iust. no : look you mr. attorney , you must look to your information , and then you will find the case that you put , does not come up to it ; it is for writing , composing , and publishing , and causing to be published , and all this is laid in middlesex ; now you have proved none of all these things to be done in the county . mr. att. gen. they did in middlesex confess it was theirs . l. c. iust. ay , but the owning their hands is not a publication in middlesex , and so i should have told the jury . mr. finch . i beg your lordship's pardon for interrupting you . mr. att. gen. but , my lord , does it not put the proof upon them , to prove how it came out of their hands into the king's hands . l. c. iust. no , the proof lies on your part . mr. pollixfen . pray , my lord , give us your favour to dismiss us and the jury . mr. soll. gen. my lord , our witnesses will be here presently . mr. att. gen. sure , my lord , the presumption is on our side . mr. iust. powell . no ; the presumption is against you , for my lord arch-bishop lived in surry ; and it is proved was not out of lambeth-house since michaelmass , till he came before the council . mr. s. pemb. pray , good my lord , we stand mightily uneasy here , and so do the jury , pray dismiss us . l. c. iust. i cannot help it , it is your own fault . — — then there was another great pause . lord chief iustice. sir bartho . shore , now we have time to hear your speech , if you will. mr. po●…fen . my lord , there is no body come , nor i believe will come . mr. soll. gen. yes , he will come presently , we have had a messenger from him . [ call mr. graham . ] 〈◊〉 he is gone , and said he would come presently . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 my lord , he will bring ou●… witnesses with him . — then there was another 〈◊〉 . mr. s. pemb. my lord , this is very unusual to stay thus for evidence . l. ch. iust. it is so ; but i am sure you ought not to have any ●…avour — — mr. solicitor , are you assured that you shall have this witness that you speak of ? mr. soll. gen. yes , my lord , he will be here presently . l. ch. iust. we have staid a great while already , and therefore it is ●…it that we should have some oath made that he is coming . mr. sol. gen. the cryer tells you , that mr. graham did acquaint him , that he would return presently . l. ch. iust. give him the book . mr. soll. gen. let your left-hand give your right-hand the oath . the cryer sworn . l. ch. iust. by the oath that you have taken , did mr. graham tell you , there was any further witness coming in this case ? cryer . yes , my lord , he did ; he went out of the hall , and returned when your lorship was directing the jury , and he asked me what the court were upon ? and i told him you were directing the jury , and then he said my lord sunderland was a coming , but he would go and prevent him ; and afterwards he returned and finding your lordship did not go on to direct the jury , he said he would go again for my lord sunderland , whom he had sent away , and he is now gone for him , and he said he would bring him with him presently . l. ch. iust. well then , we must stay till the evidence for the king comes , for now there is oath made that he is coming . — and after a considerable pause the lord president came . mr. attor . gen. my lord , we must pray that my lord president may be sworn in this case , on behalf of the king. the lord president sworn . mr. attor . gen. my lord , with your lordship's favour , i would ask my lord president a question ; your lordship remembers where we left this cause ; we have brought it to this point , that this petition came to the king's hands , that it is a petition written by my lord arch-bishop , and subscribed by the rest of my lords the bishops but there is a difficulty made , whether this petition thus prepared and written was by them delivered to the king , and whether my lords the bishops were concerned in the doing of it , and were privy o●… parties to the delivery : now that which i would ask your lordship my lord president , is , whether they did make their application to your lordship to speak to the king. mr. soll. gen. did they make their application to your lordship upon any account whatsoever ? l. president . my lord , my lord bishop of st. a●…ph , and my lord bishop of 〈◊〉 came to my office , and told me , they came in the names of my lord arch-bishop of canterbury , and four others of their brethren and themselves , with a petition which they 〈◊〉 to deliver to his majesty , and they did come to me to know which was the best way of doing it , and whether the king would give them leave to do it or not ? they would have had m●… r●…d t●…ir petition , but i refused it , and said , i thought it did not at all belong to me , but i would let the king know their desire , and bring them an answer immediately , what his pleasure was in it ; which i did , i acquainted the king , and he commanded me to let my lords the bishops know , they might come when they pleased , and i went back and told them so , upon which they went and fetch'd the rest of the bishops , and when they came , immediately they went into the bed-chamber , and 〈◊〉 another room where the king wa●… this is that i know of the matter . mr. soll. gen. about what time was this , pray , my lord ? l. president . i believe there could not be much time between my coming from the king , and their fetching their brethren , and going in to the king. mr. soll. gen. they were with the king that day . l. president . yes , they were . mr. soll. gen. was this before they appeared in council ? l. president . yes , it was several days before . mr. soll. gen. then i think now , my lord , the matter is very plain . mr. iust. allibone . did they acquaint your lordship that their business was to deliver a petition to the king. l. president . yes , they did . mr. soll. gen. and they would have had my lord read it ( he says . ) mr. attorn . gen. and this was the same day that they did go in to the king. l. president . the very same day , and i think the same hour , for it could not be much longer , l. ch. iust. now it is upon you truly , it will be presumed to be the same , unless that you prove that you delivered another — pray , my lord , did you look into the petition ? l. president . no , i refused it , i thought it did not concern me . mr. iust. powel . did you see them deliver it to the king , my lord ? l. president . i was not in the room when it was delivered . mr. iust. powel . they did open their petition to your lordship , did they ? l. president . they offered me to read it , but i did refuse . l. ch. iust. will you ask my lord president any question , you that are for the defendants ? sir rob. sawyer . no , my lord. mr. sol. gen. then my lord , we must beg one thing for the sake of the jury , if your lordship can turn your self a little this way , and deliver the evidence you have given over again that they may hear it . l. president . my lord , i will repeat it as near as i can , i think i shall not vary the sense : the bishops of st. asaph and chichester came to my office , i do not know just the day when , but it was to let me know , that they came in the name of the archbishop and four other of their brethren — is it necessary i should name them ? l. ch. iust. do it , my lord , if you can . l. president . they were the bishops of ely , bath and wells , bristol , and peterborough ; they came to let me know , in the name of the arch-bishop , those four and themselves , that they had a petition to deliver to the king , if he would give them leave ; and desired to know of me which was the best way to do it . i told them i would know the king's pleasure , and bring them word again : they offered me their petition to read , but i did not think it fit for me to do it , and therefore i refused and would not read it , but i went immediately to the king , and acquainted his majesty with it , and he commanded me to let them know they might come when they would , which i immediately did , they said they would go and speak with some of their brethren that were not far off ; in the mean time i gave order that they should be admitted when they came , and they did in a little time return , and went first into the bed-chamber , and then into the room where the king was . mr. sol. gen. and this was before they came and appeared at the council . l. president . yes it was . mr. pollixfen . your lordship did not read any thing of the petition . l. president . no , sir , i did not , i refused it . mr. pollixfen . nor does your lordship know what petition they did deliver to the king. l. president . i did not know any thing of it from them then . l. ch. iust. now you may make your observations upon this two hours hen ; now we shall hear what mr. finch had ●…her to offer , i suppose . then my lord president went 〈◊〉 . mr. sol. gen. i think now it is very plain . l. ch. iust. truly , i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tell you , there was a great presumption before , but there is a greater now , and i think i shall leave it with some effect to the jury , i cannot see but that here is enough to put the proof upon you ▪ they came to the lord president , and asked him how they might deliver a petition to the king , he told them he would go and see what the king said to it ; they would have had him read their petition , but he refused it ; he comes and tells them the king said they might come when they would ; then those two that came to my lord president went and gathered up the other four ( the arch-bishop indeed was not there ) but they six came , and my lord president gave direction they should be let in , and they did go into the room where the king was ; now this , with the king 's producing the paper , and their owning it at the council , i●… such a proof to me , as i think will be evidence to the jury of the publication . mr. pollixfen . then my lord thus far they only can go , the arch-bishop was not there , and so there is no evidence against him . mr. sol. gen. as to the writing , we have given proof against him , for it is all his hand . mr. pollixfen . that still is in another county , and there is nothing proved to be done by my lord arch-bishop in middlesex ; and next , for the other six lords , my lord president does not say that this is the petition that they said they had to deliver to the king ; nor did he see them deliver any thing to the king , but that is left still doubtful , and under your judgment , so that it stands upon presumption , not upon proof , that this is the same and left under consideration . mr. attor . gen. then we will leave it fairly to the jury upon this fact. mr. pollixfen . if so , then we desire to be heard in our defence . sir rob. sawyer . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , you have heard this charge which mr. attorny has been pleased to make against my lords the bishops , and that is this , that they did conspire to diminish the royal authority , and regal prerogative , power , and government of the king , and to avoid the order of council , and in prosecution of this , they did falsely , maliciously and seditiously make a libel against the king , under pretence of a petition , and did publish the same in the king's presence . this , gentlemen , is a very heinous and heavy charge ; but you see how short their evidence is ; the evidence they bring forth ▪ is only , that my lords the bishops presented the paper to the king in the most private and humble manner they could , that which they have been so many hours a proving , and which they cry up to be as strong an evidence as ever was given , proves it to be the farthest from sedition in the doing of it that can be ; and you see what it is , it is a petition to be relieved against an order of council , which they conceive they were aggrieved by , they indeed do not deal fairly with the court nor with us , in that they do not set it forth that it was a petition . l. ch. iust. that was over-ruled before . sir rob. sawyer . i do not insist upon it now , so much an exception to the information , as i do to the evidence ; they set this forth to be a scandalous matter ; but it only contains their reasons , whereby they would satisfy his majesty why they cannot comply in a concurrence with his majesty's pleasure ; and therefore they humbly beseech the king , and beg and request him ( as the words of it are ) that his majesty would be pleased not to insist upon their distributing and reading of this declaration ; so the petitioners on behalf of themselves , and the whole clergy of england , beg of the king that he would please not to insist upon it . gentlemen , you may observe it , that there is nothing in this petition that contains any thing of sedition in it , and it would be strange this petition should be felo de se , and by one part of it destroy the other , it is laid indeed in the information , that it was with intent and purpose to diminish the king's royal authority , but i appeal to your lordship , the court , and the jury , whether there be any one word in it , that any way touches the king's prerogative , or any tittle of evidence that has been given to make good the charge ; it is an excuse barely for their non-complyance with the king's order , and a begging of the king with all humility and submission , that he would be pleased not to insist upon the reading of his majesty's declaration upon these grounds , because the dispensing power upon which it was founded , had been several times in parliament declared to be against law , and because it was a case of that consequence that they could not in prudence , honour or conscience concur in it . my lord ; mr. attourny has been pleased to charge in this information , that this is a false , malicious and seditious libel : both the falsity of it , and that it was malicious and seditious , are all matters of fact , which with submission they have offered to the jury no proof of , and i make no question but easily to demonstrate the quite contrary . for , my lord , i think it can be no question , but that any subject that is commanded by the king to do a thing which he conceives to be against law , and against his conscience , may humbly apply himself to the king , and tell him the reason why he does not that thing he is commanded to do , why he cannot concur with his majesty in such a command . my lord , that which mr. attorney did insist upon in the beginning of this day ( and he pretended to cite some cases for it ) was , that in this case , my lords the bishops , were not sued as bishops , nor prosecuted for their religion : truly , my lord , i do not know what they are sued for else ; the information is against them as bishops , it is for an act they did as bishops , and no otherwise ; and for an act they did and do conceive they lawfully might do with relation to their ecclesiastical polity , and the government of their people as bishops . the next thing that mr. attorney offered was , that it was not for a non-feasance , but for a feasance ; it is true , my lord , it is for a feasance in making of the petition , but it was to excuse a non-feasance , the not reading according to the order , and this sure was lawful for all the bishops as subjects to do ; and i shall shew it was certainly the duty of my lords the bishops , or any peer of the realm to do the same in a like case . it was likewise said , they were prosecuted here for affronting the government , and intermedling with matters of state ; but i beg your lordship and the jury to consider , whether there is one tittle of this mentioned in the petition , or any evidence given of it ; the petition does not meddle with any thing of any matter of state , but refers to an ecclesiastical matter , to be executed by the clergy , and to a matter that has relation to ecclesiastical causes ; so that they were not busybodies , or such as meddled in matters that did not relate to them , but that which was properly within their sphere and jurisdiction . but after all , there is no evidence , nor any sort of evidence that is given by mr. attorney , that will maintain the least tittle of this charge ; and how he comes to leave it upon this sort of evidence i cannot tell , all that it amounts to is , that my lords the bishops being greived in this manner , made this petition to the king in the most private and respectful manner ; and for him to load it with such horrid black epithets , that it was done libellously , maliciously , and scandalously , and to oppose the king and government , 't is very hard , 't is a case of a very extraordinary nature , and i believe my lords the bishops cannot but conceive a great deal of trouble , that they should lie under so heavy a charge , and that mr. attorney should draw so severe an information against them , when he has so little proof to make it out . my lord , by what we have to say to it , we hope we shall give your lordship and the jury satisfaction , that we have done but our duties , supposing here has been a sufficient evidence of the fact given , which we leave to your lordship and the jury . my lord , we say in short , that this petition is no more than what any man if he be commanded to do any thing , might humbly do it , and not be guilty of any crime . and , my lord , as to the matter of our defence , it will consist of these heads ; first , we shall consider the matter of this petition . secondly , the manner of the delivering it , according as they have given evidence here ; and , thirdly , the persons that have delivered this petition . and we hope to make it appear , beyond all question , that the matter contained in this petition , is neither false nor contrary to law , but agreeable to all the laws of the land in all times , we shall likewise shew you ( though that appear sufficiently to you already ) that the manner of delivering it was so far from being seditious , that it was in the most secret and private manner , and with the greatest humility and duty imaginable . and then as to the persons , we shall shew you , that they are not such as mr. attorney says , who meddle with matters of state , that are of out their sphere , but they are persons concerned , and concerned in interest in the case , to make this humble application to the king. and when we have proved all this matter , you will see how strangely we are blackned with titles and epithets which we no ways deserve , and of which , god be thanked , there is no proof . for my lord , for the matter of the petition , we shall consider two things . the first is , the prayer , which is this , they humbly beg and desire of the king , on behalf of themselves and the rest of the clergy , that he would not insist upon the reading and publishing of this declaration . surely , my lord , there is nothing of falsity in this , nor any thing that is contrary to law , or unlawful for any man that is pressed to any thing , especially , by an order of council ; and this is nothing but a petition against an order of council , and if there be an order that commands my lords the bishops , to do a thing that seems grievous to them , surely they may beg of the king that he would not insist upon it . and for this matter , they were so well satisfied about it , and so far from thinking that it was any part of a libel , that they left it out of the information , and so have made a deformed and absurd story of it , without head or tall , a petition directed to no body , and for nothing , it being without both title and prayer ; so that this is plain , is was lawful to petition . then , my lord , the next thing is , the reasons which my lords the bishops come to acquaint the king with , why , in honour and conscience , they cannot comply with , and give obedience to this order ; and the reasons , my lord , are two . the first reason that is assigned , is , the several declarations that have been in parliament , ( several of which are mentioned ) that such a power to dispense with the law , is against law ; and that it could not be done but by an act of parliament , for that is the meaning of the word illegal , that has no other signification , but unlawful ; the same word in point of signification with the word illicitè ; which they have used in their information , a thing that cannot be done by law ; and this they are pleased to tell the king , not as declaring their own judgments , but what has been declared in parliament ; though if they had done the former , they being peers of the realm , and bishops of the church , are bound to understand the laws , especially when ( as i shall come to show you ) they are made guardians of these laws ; and if any thing go amiss , and contrary to these laws , they ought to inform the king of it . my lord , the next thing is , because it is a thing of so great moment , and the consequences that will arise from their publishing of this declaration , and that too , my lord , ( for the latter i shall begin first with ) there can be no question about , or any pretence that this is libellous or false , for certainly it is a case of the greatest consequence to the whole nation that ever was ; therefore it cannot be false or libellous to say so . my lord , i would not mention this , for i am loth to touch upon things of this nature , had not the information it self made it the very gift of the charge ; for the information ( if there be any thing in it ) says , that it was to diminish the king's prerogative and regal power in publishing that declaration . now , my lord , what the consequence of this would be , and what my lords the bishops meant by saying , it was a cause of great moment , will appear , by considering that which is the main clause in the declaration , at which my lords the bishops scrupled , which is the main stumbling-block to my lords , and has been to many honest men besides , and that is this . we do likewise declare , it is our royal will and pleasure , that from hence-forth the execution of all and all manner of penal laws , in matters ecclesiastical , for not coming to church , or not receiving the sacrament , or for any other nonconformity to the religion established ; or for or by reason of the exercise of religion in any manner whatsoever , be immediately suspended ; and the further execution of the said penal laws , and every of them , is hereby suspended . now , my lord , this clause either is of some legal ●…ect and signification , or it is not . if mr. attorny , or the king's council , do say it is of no effect in law , then there is no harm done , then this petition does no ways impeach the king's prerogative , in saying , it has been declared in parliament , according as the king's counsel do agree the law to be . but , my lord , if it have any effect in law , and these laws are suspended by virtue of this clause in the declaration , then certainly , my lord , it is of the most dismal consequence that can be thought of , and it behoved my lords , who are the fathers of the church , humbly to represent it to the king. for , my lord , by this declaration , and particularly by that clause in it , not only the laws of our reformation , but all the laws for the preservation of the christian religion in general are suspended , and become of no force ; if there be such an effect in law wrought by this declaration as is pretended , ( that is ) that the obligation of obedience to them ceaseth , the reason of it is plain , the words cannot admit of such a quibble as to pretend , that the execution of the law is not the suspending of the law , and that the suspending the execution of the law , is not a suspending of the law ; for we all know the execution of every law , in its primary intent , is obedience to it , that of the penalty comes in by way of punishment and recompence for their disobedience . now , my lord , if this declaration does dischar●… the king's subjects from their obedience to , and the obligation from , those laws : then pray , my lord , where are we ? then all the laws of the reformation are suspended , and the laws of christianity it self , by those latter words , 〈◊〉 or for , or by reason of religion in any manner whatsoever ] so that it is not confined to the christian religion , but all other religions are permitted under this clause ; and thus all our laws for keeping the sabbath , and which distinguish us from heathens , will be suspended too . my lord , this is such an inconvenience as ( i think ) i need name no more ; and it is a very natural confequence from that clause of the declaration , it discharges at once all ministers and clergy-men from performing their duty in reading the service of the church , it discharges their hearers from attending upon that service . when a law is suspended , the obligation thereof is taken away ; and those that before thought themselves bound to obey , now conclude they are not so obliged , and what a mischief that will be to the church , which is under the care of my lords the bishops , your lordship will easily apprehend . these things , my lord , i only mention , to shew the great and evil consequences that apparently follow upon such a declaration , which made my lords the bishops decline obeying the order , and put them under a necessity of applying thus to the king , to acquaint him with the reasons why they could not comply with his commands , to read this declaration to the people , because the consequences thereof were so great , it tending naturally to lead the people into so great an error , as to believe those law●… were not in force , when in truth and reality they are still in force , and continue to oblige them . and that being the second reason in this petition , i come next to consider it , to wit , th●… the parliament had often declared this pretended power to be illegal , and for that we shall read the several records in parliament mentioned in their petition , and produce several ancient records of former parliaments that prove this point ; and particularly in the time of richard the second , concerning the statute of provisors , where there were particular dispensations for that statute , the king was enabled to do it by act of parliament●… and could not do it without . l. c. iust. pray , sir robert sawyer , go to your proofs , and reserve your arguments till afterwards . sir rob. sawyer . my lord , i do but shortly mention these things ; so that , my lord , as to the matter of this petition , we shall shew you , that it is true and agreeable to the laws of the land. then , my lord , as to the manner of delivering it , i need say no more , but that it is plain from their evidence , that it was in the most private and humble manner . and , as my lord president said , leave was asked of the king , for them to be admitted to present it : leave was given , and accordingly they did it . we come then , my lord , to the third thing , the persons , these noble lords ; and we shall shew , they are not busie-bodies , but in this matter have done their duty , and medled with their own affairs . that , my lord , will appear , first , by the general care that is reposed in them by the law of the land : they are frequently in our books , called the king's spiritual judges ; they are intrusted with the care of souls , and the superintendency over all the clergy is their principal care. but , besides this , my lord , there is another special care put upon them , by the express words of an act of parliament ; for , over and above the general care of the church , by virtue of their offices as bishops , the act of eliz. cap. . makes them special guardians of the law of uniformity , and of that other law in his late majesty's reign ; where all the clauses of that statute of eliz. are revived , and made applicable to the present state of the church of england . now in that statute of eliz. there is this clause . and for the due execution hereof , the queen 's most excellent majesty , the lords spiritual and temporal , and all the commons in this present parliament assembled , do , in god's name , earnestly require and charge all the archbishops , and bishops , and other ordinaries , that they do endeavour themselves , to the utmost of their knowledges , that the due and true execution hereof may be had throughout their diocesses and charges , as they will answer before god , for such evils and plagues , wherewith almighty god may justly punish his people , for neglecting this good and wholsome law. this is the charge that lies upon the bishops , to take care of the execution of that law ; and i shall pray by and by , that it may be read to the jury . mr. soll. gen. that is very well , indeed ! to what purpose ? sir rob. sawyer , so that , my lord , by this law it is plain , that my lords the bishops , upon pain of bringing upon themselves the imprecation of this act of parliament , are obliged to see it executed ; and then , my lord , when any thing comes under their knowledge , especially if they are to be actors in it , that has such a tendency to destroy the very foundations of the church , as the suspension of all the laws that relate to the church must do , it concerns them that have no other remedy , to address the king , by petition , about it . for that , mr. attorney , my lord , has agreed , that if a proper remedy be pursued in a proper court , for a grievance complained of , though there may be many hard words that else would be scandalous , yet , being in a regular course , they are no scandal . and so it is said in lake's case , in my lord hobbart . my lord , we must appeal to the king , or we can appeal to no body , to be relieved against an order of council , with which we are aggrieved ; and it is our duty so to do , according to the care that the law hath placed in us . besides , my lord , the bishops were commanded by this order , to do an ac●… relating to their ecclesiastical function , to distribute it to be ▪ read by their clergy : and how could they in conscience do it , when they thought part of the declaration was not according to law ? pray , my lord , what has been the reason of his majesty's consulting of his judges ? and if his majesty , or any the great officers , by his command , are about to do any thing that is contrary to law , was it ever yet an offence to tell the king so ? i always look'd upon it as the duty of an officer or magistrate , to tell the king what is law , and what is not law. in cavendish's case , in the queen's time , there was an office granted of the retorn of the writs of supersedeas in the court of common pleas ; and he comes to the court , and desires to be put into the possession of the office : the court told him , they could do nothing in it , but he must bring his assize . he applies to the queen , and she sends , under the privy seal , a command to sequester the profits , and to take security to answer th●… profits , as the judgment of the law should go : but the judges there return an answer , that it was against law , and they could not do it . then there comes a second letter , reciting the former , and commanding their obedience : the judges returned for answer , they were upon their oaths , and were sworn to keep the laws , and would not do it . my lord , the like was done in the time of my lord hobbart : we have it reported in anderson , in a case where a prohibition had gone ; there came a message from court , that a consultation should be granted ; and that was a matter wherein there were various opinions , whether it was ex necessitate , or discretionary , but there they return'd , that it was against law , for any such message to he sent . now here , my lord , is a case full as strong : my lords the bishops were commanded to do an act , which they conceived to be against law , and they decline it , and tell the king the reason ; and they have done it in the most humble manner that could be , by way of petition . if they had done ( as the civil law terms it ) rescribere generally , that had been lawful ; but here they have done it in a more respectful manner , by an humble petition . if they had said the law was otherwise , that sure had been no fault ; but they do not so much as that , but they only say , it was so declared in parliament ; and they declare it with all humility and dutifulness . so that , my lord , if we consider the persons of the defendants , they have not acted as busie-bodies ; and therefore , as this case is , when we have given our evidence , here will be an answer to all the implications of law , that are contained in this information : for they would have this petition work by implication of law , to make a libel of it ; but by what i have said , it will appear , there was nothing of sedition , nothing of malice , nothing of scandal in it ; nothing of the salt , and vinegar , and pepper , that they have put into the case . we shall prove the matters that i have open'd for our defence , and then , i dare say , your lordship and the jury will be of opinion , we have done nothing but our duty . mr. finch , may it please your lordship , and you , gentlemen of the jury , this information sets forth ( as you may observe upon opening it ) that the king having , by his royal prerogative , set forth his declarations that have been read , and made an order of council for the reading the said declarations in the churches ; and that the archbishop and bishops should severally send them into their diocesses , to be read ; my lords the bishops , that are the defendants , did consult and conspire together to diminish the kingly authority , and royal prerogative of the king , and his power and government in his regal prerogative , in setting forth his declaration ; and that , in prosecution of that conspiracy , they did contrive ( as it was laid in the information ) a malicious , seditious , scandalous , false , and feigned libel , under pretence of a petition , and so set forth the petition ; and that they published the petition in the presence of the king. to this charge in the information , not guilty being pleaded , the evidence that hath been given for the king , i know hath been observed by the court and the jury , and i know will be taken into consideration , how far it does come up to the proof of the delivery of this petition by my lords the bishops ; for all that was said till my lord president was pleas'd to come , was no evidence of any delivery at all ; and my lord pre●…dent's evidence is , that they were going to deliver a petition ; but whether they did deliver it , or did it not , or what they did deliver , he does not know . this is all the evidence that has been given for the king. but supposing now , my lord , that there were room to presume that they had delivered this petition set forth in the information , let us consider what the question is between the king and my lords the bishops : the question is , whether they are guilty of contriving to diminish the king's regal authority , and royal prerogative , in his power and government , in setting forth this declaration ? whether they are guilty of the making and presenting a malicious , seditious and scandalous libel ; and whether they have published it , as it is said in the information , in the king's presence ? so that the question is not now reduced to this , whether this paper , that is set forth in the information , was delivered to the king by my lords the bishops ; but whether they have made a malicious , seditious and scandalous libel , with an intent to diminish the king's royal prerogative , and kingly authority ? and then , if you , gentlemen , should think that th●… is evidence given , sufficient to prove that my lords the bishops have delivered to the king that paper which is set forth in the information ; yet , unless they have delivered a false , malicious , seditious and scandalous libel ; unless they have published it , to stir up sedition in the kingdom ; and unless they have contrived this by conspiracy , to diminish the king 's royal prerogative and authority , and that power that is said to be i●… the king , my lords the bishops are not guilty of this accusation . there are in this declaration several clauses , which , upon reading of the information ( i am sure ) cannot but have been observed by you , gentlemen of the jury ; and one special clause hath been by the council already opened to you , and i shall not enlarge upon it . my lord , this petition that is thus delivered to the king , if it be a libel , a scandalous and seditious libel ( as the information calls it ) it must be so , either for the matter of the petition , or for the persons that deliver'd the petition , or for the manner of their presenting and delivering it : but neither for the matter , nor for the persons , nor for the manner of presenting it , is there any endeavour to dim●…nish the king 's royal prerogative , nor to stir up sedition , nor reflection upon the king 's true royal and kingly authority . the petition does humbly set forth to his majesty , that there having been such a declaration , and such an order of council , they did humbly represent to his majesty , that they were not averse to any thing commanded them in that order , in respect to the just and due obedience that they owed to the king , nor in respect of their want of a due tenderness to those persons to whom the king had been pleased to shew his tenderness ; but the declaration being founded upon a power of dispensing , which had been declared illegal in parliament several times , and particularly in the years , , and . they did humbly beseech his majesty ( they not being able to comply with his command in that matter ) that he would not insist upon it . now , my lord , where is the contrivance to diminish the king's regal authority , and royal prerogative ? this is a declaration founded upon a power of dispensing , which undertakes to suspend all laws ecclesiastical whatsoever ; for not coming to church , or not receiving the sacrament , or any other nonconformity to the religion established , or for or by reason of the exercise of religion in any manner whatsoever ; ordering that the execution of all those laws be immediately suspended , and they are thereby declared to be suspended ; as if the king had a power to suspend at once all the laws relating to the establish'd religion , and all the laws that were made for the security of our reformation . these are all suspended by his majesty's declaration ( as it is said ) in the information , by virtue of his royal prerogative , and power so to do . now , my lord , i have always taken it , with submission , that a power to abrogate laws , is as much a part of the legislature , as a power to make laws : a power to lay laws asleep , and to suspend laws , is equal to a power of abrogating them ; for they are no longer in being , as laws , while they are so laid asleep , or suspended : and to abrogate all at once , or to do it time after time , is the same thing ; and both are equally parts of the legislature . my lord , in all the education that i have had , in all the small knowledge of the laws that i could attain to , i could never yet hear of , or learn , that the constitution of this government in england was otherwise than thus , that the whole legislative power is in the king , lords and commons ; the king , and his two houses of parliament . but then , if this declaration be founded upon a part of the legislature , which must be by all men acknowledged , not to reside in the king alone , but in the king , lords and commons , it cannot be a legal and true power , or prerogative . this , my lord , has been attempted , but in the last king's time ; it never was pretended till then ; and in that first attempt , it was so far from being acknowledged , that it was taken notice of in parliament , and declared against : so it was in the years . and . in the year — . where there was but the least umbrage given of such a dispensing power ; although the king had declared , in his speech to the parliament , that he wished he had such a power , which his declaration before seemed to assume ; the parliament was so jealous of this , that they immediately made their application to his majesty , by an address against the declaration ; and they give reasons against it , in their address : one , in particular , was , that the king could not dispense with those laws , without an act of parliament . there was another attempt in . and then , after his majesty had , in his speech , mentioned his declaration to them , the parliament there again , particularly the house of commons , did humbly address to his majesty ; setting forth , that this could not be done by law , without an act of parliament : and your lordship , by and by , upon reading the record , will be satisfied what was the event of all this . his majesty himself was so far pleased to concurr with them in that opinion , that he cancell'd his declaration , tore off the seal , and caused it to be made known to the house of lords , by the lord chancellor , who , by his majesty's command , satisfied the house of it , that his majesty had broken the seal , and cancell'd the declaration ; with this further declaration , which is enter'd in the records of the house , that it should never be drawn into example , or consequence . my lord , the matter standing thus , in respect to the king's prerogative , and the declarations that had been made in parliament ; consider next , i beseech you , how far my lords the bishops were concerned in this question , humbly to make their application to the king. my lords the bishops lying under a command to publish this declaration , it was their duty , as peers of the realm , and bishops of the church of england , humbly to apply themselves to his majesty , to make known their reasons , why they could not obey that command ; and they do it with all submission , and all humility , representing to his majesty what had been declared in parliament ; and it having been so declared , they could not comply with his order ; as apprehending that this declaration , was founded upon that which the parliament declared to be illegal ; and so his majesty's command to publish this declaration , would not warrant them so to do . this they did , as peers ; and this they had a right to do as bishops ; humbly to advise the king. for , suppose , my lord , ( which is not to be supposed in every case , nor do i suppose it in this ; but suppose that there might be a king of england that should be mis-led ; ) ( i do not suppose that to be the case now , i say , but i know it hath been the case formerly ) that the king should be environed with counsellors that had given him evil advice ; it has been objected as a crime against such evil counsellors , that they would not permit and suffer the great men of the kingdom to offer the king their advice how often do we say in westminster-hall ; that the king is deceived in his grant ? there is scarce a day in the term , but it is said in one court , or other ; but it was never yet thought an offence to say so : and what more is there in this case ? my lord , if the king was mis-informed , or under a mis-apprehension of the law , my lords , as they are peers , and as they are bishops , are concerned in it ; and if they humbly apply themselves to the king , and offer him their advice ; where is the crime ? my lord , these noble lords , the defendants , had more than an ordinary call to this ; for , besides the duty of their office , and the care of the church , that was incumbent on them as bishops , they were here to become actors ; for they were , by that order of council , commanded themselves to publish it , and to distribute it to the several ministers in their several diocesses , with their commands to read it : therefore they had more than ordinary reason to concern themselves in the matter . next , we are to consider , my lord , in what manner this was done ; they make their application to the king , by an humble petition , with all the decency and respect that could be shewn ; asking leave , first , to approach his person ; and having leave , they offer'd my lord president the matter of their petition , that nothing might seem hard , or disrespectful , or as if they intended any thing that was unfit to be avowed . when they had taken all this care in their approach , and begging leave for it , they come secretly to the king , in private , when he was all alone , and there they humbly present this petition to his majesty . now , how this can be called the publication of a malicious and seditious libel , when it was but the presenting of a petition to the king alone : and how it can be said to be with an intent to stir up sedition in the people against his majesty , and to alienate the hearts of his people from him , when it was in this private manner delivered to him himself only , truly , i cannot apprehend . my lord , i hope nothing of this can be thought an offence : if the jury should think that there has been evidence sufficient given , to prove that my lords the bishops did deliver this paper to the king , yet that is not enough to make them guilty of this information , unless this paper be likewise found to be in diminution of the king 's royal prerogative , and regal authority , in dispensing with , and suspending of all laws , without act of parliament : unless it be found to be a libel against the king , to tell him , that in parliament it was so and so declared : and unless the presenting this by way of petition ( which is the right of all people that apprehend themselves aggrieved , to approach his majesty by petition ) be a libelling of the king : and unless this humble petition , in this manner presented to the king in private , may be said to be a malicious and seditious libel , with an intent to stir up the people to sedition : unless all this can be found , there is no man living can ever find my lords the bishops guilty upon this information . therefore , my lord , we will go on , and make out this matter that we have opened to your lordship , if mr. attorney , and mr. sollicitor think fit to argue the points that we have opened . mr. pollixfen . pray , my lord , spare me a word on the same side . for the first point , it is a point of law , whether the matter contained in this petition be a libel . the king's council pretend it is so , because it says , the declaration is founded upon a power the parliament has declared to be illegal . but we say , that whatsoever the king is pleased to say in any declaration of his , it is not the king 's saying of it , that makes it to be law. now we say , this declaration under the great seal , is not agreeable to the laws of the land ; and that for this reason , because it does , at one blow , set aside all the law we have in england . my lord , if this be denied , we must a little debate this matter ; for they are almost all penal laws ; not only those before the reformation , but since ; upon which the whole government , both in church and state , does in a great measure depend . especially , my lord , in matters of religion , they are all penal laws : for , by the act of uniformity , which my lords the bishops are sworn to observe , and adjured by an express clause in the act ; no man is to preach , unless he be episcopally ordained ; no man is to preach without a licence . if all this be set aside , i confess , then it will go very far into the whole ecclesiastical government . if this be denied , we are ready to argue that too . l. c. i. they are to do so still . mr. pollixfen . my lord , i am sure the consequence is otherwise , if this declaration signifie any thing . and if it be the will of the king , my lord , the will of the king is , what the law is . if so be the king 's will be not consonant to the law , it is not obliging . my lord , the cases that we have had of dispensations , are all so many strong authorities , against a general , or particular abrogation . my lord , that is a matter of law , which if it fall out to be any way doubtful , it will be fit to have it debated and setled . if they will say , that the penal laws in matters ecclesiastical can be abrogated , or nulled , or made void pro tempore , or for life , without the meeting of the king and people in parliament ; i must confess , they say a great thing , as it is a point of great concern ; but i think , that will not be said : and all that has been ever said in any case , touching dispensations , proves quite the contrary , and asserts what i affirm . for , why should any man go about to argue , that the king may dispense with this or that particular law , if at once he can dispense with all the law , by an undoubted prerogative ? this is a point of law , which we insist upon , and are ready to argue with them ; but we will go on with the rest of those things that we have offer'd : and first , we will read the act of uniformity , made eliz. that clause of it , where they are so strictly charged to see to the execution of that law. this act , my lord , by the act of uniformity , made in the beginning of the late king's reign , is revived , with all the clauses in it , relating to this matter . if then this be a duty incumbent upon them , and their oaths require it of them ; and if they find , that the pleasure of the king ; in his declaration , is , that which is not consonant to this law , what can they do ? can any thing be more humble , or done with a more christian mind , than by way of petition , to inform the king in the matter ? for i never thought it , nor hath it ever ( sure ) been thought by any body else , to be a crime to petition the king : for the king may be mistaken in the law , so our books say ; and we , every day , in westminster-hall , argue against the king's grants , and say , he is deceived in his grants . it is the great benefit and liberty , which the king gives to his subjects , to argue the legality , or illegality of his grants . my lord , when all this is done , to make this to be a libel , by putting in the words , malicious , seditious , scandalous , and with an intent to raise sedition , would be pretty hard . — my lord , we pray , that clause of the statute may be read . mr. soll. gen. what for ? mr. pollixfen . it is a general law , and therefore the court will take notice of it ; and we pray , the jury may hear it read . mr. soll. gen. i agree it to be as mr. pollixfen has opened ; and i agree it to be as sir robert sawyer has opened it . mr. s. pemberton . my lord , we shall put it upon a short point : my lords the bishops are here accused of a crime , of a very heinous nature as can be ; they are here branded and stigmatized by this information , as if they were seditious libellers ; when , my lord , it will , in truth , fall out , that they have done no more than their duty ; their duty to god , their duty to the king , and their duty to the church . for , in this case , that which we humbly offer to your lordship ( and insist upon it , as very plain ) is this ; that the kings of england have no power to suspend , or dispense with the laws and statutes of the kingdom , that establish our religion : that is it , which we stand upon for our defence . and we say , that such a dispensing power with laws and statutes , is a thing that strikes at the very foundation of all the rights , liberties and properties of the king's subjects whatsoever . if the king may suspend the laws of the land , which concern our religion , i am sure there is no other law , but he may suspend : and if the king may suspend all the laws of the kingdom , what a condition are all the subjects in , for their lives , liberties and properties ? all at mercy . my lord , the king 's legal prerogatives are as much for the advantage of his subjects , as of himself ; and no man goes about to speak against them : but , under pretence of legal prerogatives , to extend the power of the king , to support a prerogative that tends to the destruction of all his subjects , their religion , and liberties ; in that , i think , they do the king no service , who go about to do it . but now we say , with your lordship's favour , that these laws are the great bulwark of the reformed religion ; they are , in truth , that which fenceth the religion and church of england , and we have no other humane fence besides . they were made upon a fore-sight of the mischief that had , and might come , by false religions in this kingdom ; and they were intended to defend the nation against them , and to keep them out ; particularly , to keep out the romish religion ( which is the very worst of all religions ) from prevailing among us ; and that is the very design of the act for the tests , which is intituled , an act to prevent dangers that may happen from popish recusants . my lord , if this declaration should take effect , what would be the end of it ? all religions are let in , let them be what they will ; ranters , quakers , and the like ; nay , even the roman catholick religion ( as they call it ; ) which was intended , by these acts of parliament , and by the act of uniformity , and several other acts , to be kept out of this nation , as a religion no way tolerable , nor to be endured here . if this declaration take effect , that religion will stand upon the same terms with the protestant religion . suspend those laws , and that romish religion , that was intended to be prohibited , and so much care was taken , and so many statutes made , to prohibit it , will come in ; and all this care , and all those statutes go for nothing . this one declaration sets them all out of doors ; and then that religion stands upon equal terms with the established religion . my lord , we say this farther , that my lords the bishops have the care of the church , by their very function , and offices ; and are bound to take care , to keep out all those false religions that are prohibited , and designed to be kept out by the law. my lords the bishops finding this declaration founded upon a meer pretended power , that had been continually opposed , and rejected in parliament , could not comply with the king's command to read it . my lord , such a power to dispense with , or suspend the laws of a nation ; cannot , with any shadow of reason , be . it is not long since , that such a power was ever pretended to by any , but such as have the legislative too ; for it is plain , that such a power must , at least , be equal to the power that made the laws . to dispense with a law , must argue a power greater , or , at least , as great as that which made the law. my lord , it has been often said in our books , that where the king's subjects are concerned in interest , the king cannot suspend , or dispense with a particular law. but , my lord , how can the king's subjects be more concern'd in interest , than when their religion lies at stake ? it has been resolved , upon the statute of symony , that where the statute has disabled the party to take , there the king could not enable him , against that act of parliament : and shall it be said , that by his dispensation , he shall enable one to hold an office , who is disabled by the test-act ? my lord , we say , the course of our law allows no such dispensation , as this declaration pretends to . and he that is but meanly read in our law , must needs understand this , that the kings of england cannot suspend our laws ; for that would be , to set aside the law of the kingdom : and then we might be clearly without any laws , if the king should please to suspend them . 't is true , we say , the last king charles was prevailed upon , by mis-information , to make a dispensation , somewhat of the nature of this , though not so full an one ; for that dispensed only with some few ceremonies , and things of that nature : but the house of commons ( this taking air ) in . represent this to the king , by a petition . and what is it that they do represent ? that he , by his dispensation , has undertaken to do that , which nothing but an act of parliament can do ; that is , the dispensing with penal laws ; which is only to be done by act of parliament . and thereupon it was thought fit , upon the king's account , to bring in an act for it , in some cases . my lord , the king did then , in his speech to the parliament ( which we use , as a great argument against this dispensing power ) say this , that , considering the circumstances of the nation , he could wish with all his heart , that he had such a power , to dispense with some laws , in some particulars . and thereupon , there was a bill , in order to an act of parliament , brought in , giving the king a power to dispense ; but , my lord , with a great many qualifications . which shews plainly , that it was taken by the parliament , that he had no power to dispense with the laws , of himself . my lord , afterwards , in . the king was prevailed upon again , to grant another dispensation , somewhat larger . — l. c. i. brother pemberton , i would not interrupt you , but we have heard of this over and over again already . mr. s. pemberton . then , since your lordship is satisfied of these things ( as i presume you are ) else i should have gone on , i have done , my lord. mr. s. levinz , but , my lord , we shall go a little higher than that , and shew , that it has been taken all along , as the ancient law of england , that such dispensations ought to be by the king and the parliament , and not by the king alone . mr. soll. gen. my lord , if you will admit every one of the council to speech it , before they give their evidence , when shall we come to an end of this cause ? we shall be here till midnight . l. c. i. they have no mind to have an end of the cause , for they have kept it three hours longer than they need to have done . mr. s. pemberton . my lord , this case does require a great deal of patience . l. c. i. it does so , brother ; and the court has had a greas deal of patience : but we must not sit here only to hear speeches . mr. att. gen. now , after all their speeches , of two hours long , let them read any thing , if they have it . sir rob. sawyer . we will begin with the record of richard the second — call william fisher. william fisher , clerk to mr. ince , sworn . l. c. i. what do you ask him ? sir rob. sawyer . shew him that copy of the record . the record was then shewn him . l. c. i. where had you those , sir ? mr. fisher. among the records in the tower. l. c. i. are they true copies ? mr. fisher. yes , my lord. l. c. i. did you examine them by the record ? mr. fisher. yes , my lord. sir rob. sawyer . then hand them in ; put them in . clerk reads . ex rotulo parliamenti de anno regni regis richardi secundi xv. no . — my lord , it is written in french , and i shall make but a bad reading of it . sir sam. astrey . where is the man that examin'd it ? — do you understand french ? mr. fisher. yes , my lord. sir rob. sawyer . the record is in another hand than this ; they may easily read it . mr. soll. gen. who copy'd this paper ? mr. fisher. i did examine it . mr. soll. gen. what did you examine it with ? mr. fisher. i look'd upon that copy , and mr. halstead read the record . l. c. i. young man , read out . fisher reads . vendredy lande maine del almes qu'estoit le primier jour — mr. soll. gen. pray , tell us what it is you would have read ? mr. s. levinz . i 'll tell you what it is , mr. sollicitor : 't is the dispensation with the statute of provisors : and the act of parliament does give the king a power to dispense , till such a time . mr. soll. gen. don't you think the king's prerogative is affirmed by many acts of parliament ? mr. s. levinz . if the king could dispense without an act of parliament , what need was there for the making of it ? mr. soll. gen. mr. serjeant , we are not to argue with you about that yet . l. c. i. read it in english , for the jury to understand it . mr. fisher. my lord , i cannot undertake to read it so readily in english. mr. i. powel . why don't you produce the records that are mentioned in the petition , those in king charles the second's time ? mr. s. levinz . we will produce our records in order of time , as they are . sir sam. astrey . there is the clerk of the records of the tower , mr. halstead , will read it very well in french , or english. then mr. halstead was sworn to interpret the records into english , according to the best of his skill and knowledge ; but not reading very readily — a true copy of the record in english follows , out of the rolls of parliament , in the th year of king richard the second , numero primo . friday , the morrow of all souls , which was the first day of this parliament , holden at westminster , in the fifteenth year of the reign of our lord , king richard the second , after the conquest , the reverend father in god , the archbishop of york , primate and chancellor of england , by the king's commandment , being present in parliament , pronounced and declared , very nobly and wisely , the cause of the summons of this parliament : and said , first , that the king would , that holy church principally , and afterwards the lords spiritual and temporal , and also the cities and burroughs , should have and enjoy their liberties and franchises , as well as they had them , and enjoyed them , in the time of his noble progenitors , kings of england ; and also , in his own time. and afterwards said , the summons of this parliament was principally for three occasions : the first occasion was , to ordain how the peace and quiet of the land , which have heretofore been greatly blemished and disturbed , as well by detraction and maintenance , as otherwise , might be better holden and kept , and the laws better executed , and the king's commands better obeyed . the second occasion was , to ordain●… and see how the price of wools , which is , beyond measure , lessened and impaired , might be better amended and inhaunced . and also , that in case the war should begin again , at the end of the present truce , to wit , at the assumption of our lady next coming , to ordain and see , how and whereby the said war may be maintained at the least charge of the people . and the third occasion was , touching the statutes of provisors , to ordain and see how our holy father might have that which to him belongs ; and the king , that which belongs to him , and to his crown ; according unto that , render unto caesar the things that are caesar ' s , and unto god the things which are god's . then the other record of richard the second was read as follows , out of the rolls of parliament , the fifteenth year of king richard the second ( no ) be it remembred , touching the statute of provisors , that the commons , for the great confidence which they have in the person of our lord the king , and in his most excellent knowledge , and in the great tenderness which he hath for his crown , and the rights thereof ; and also , in the noble and high discretions of the lords , have assented , in full parliament , that our said lord the king , by advice and assent of the said lords , may make such sufferance , touching the said statute , as shall seem to him reasonable and profitable , until the next parliament , so as the said statute be not repealed in no article thereof : and that all those who have any benefices by force of the said statute , before this present parliament ; and also , that all those , to whom any aid , tranquility , or advantage is accrued , by virtue of the said statute of the benefices of holy church ( of which they were heretofore in possession ) as well by presentation , or collation of our lord the king , as of the ordinaries , or religious persons whatsoever , or by any other manner or way whatsoever ; may freely have and enjoy them , and peaceably continue their possession thereof , without being ousted thereof , or any ways challenged , hindred , molested , disquieted , or grieved hereafter , by any provisors , or others , against the form and effect of the statute aforesaid , by reason of the said sufferance in any time to come . and moreover , that the said commons may disagree at the next parliament , to this sufferance , and fully resort to the said statute , if it shall seem good to them to do it : with protestation , that this assent , which is a novelty , and has not been done before this time , be not drawn into example or consequence for time to come . and they prayed our lord the king , that the protestation might be entred of record , in the roll of the parliament : and the king granted , and commanded to do it . mr. s. levinz . now , my lord , we will go on . — this was in richard the second's time : and a power is given by the commons , to the king , with the assent of the lords , to dispense , but only to the next parliament ; with a power reserved to the commons ; and to disagree to it , and retract that consent of theirs the next parliament . sir geo. treby . the statute of provisors was and is a penal law , and concerning ecclesiastical matters too ; viz. the collating and presenting to archbishopricks , bishopricks , benefices , and dignities of the church : and in this record , now read , the parliament give the king a limited power , and for a short time , to dispense with that statute . but , to obviate all pretence of such a power 's being inherent in the crown , as a prerogative , they declare , ( . ) that it was a novelty ; that is as much as to say ; that the king had no such power before . ( . ) that it should not be drawn into example ; that is to say , that he should have no such power for the future . mr. s. levinz . now we will go on to the records mentioned in the petition ; those in the last king's time , in , and ; and that in this king's time , in . — where is the journal of the house of lords ? mr. walker sworn . l. c. i. is that the book of the house of lords ? mr. walker . it is the journal of the house of lords . l. c. i. is it kept by you ? mr. walker . yes , my lord. l. c. i. where is it kept ? mr. walker . in the usual place , here in westminster . mr. soll. gen. what is that ? mr. s. levinz . it is the journal of the house of lords — but , my lord , there is one thing that is mentioned in the last record that is read , which is worth your lordship's , and the jury's observation ; that it is declared a novelty , and a protestation , that it should not be drawn into precedent for the future . l. c. i. that has been observed , brother : let us hear your record read . clerk read . — die mercurii o die februarii , . his majesty was present this day , sitting in the regal crown and robes , the ( peers being likewise in their robes : the king gave order to the gentleman usher of the black rod , to signifie to the house of commons his pleasure , that they presently come up , and attend his majesty , with their speaker ; who being present , his majesty made this speech following . my lords , and gentlemen ; i am very glad to meet you here again , having thought the time long since we parted , and often wished you had been together , to help me in some occasions which have fallen out : i need not repeat them unto you , you have all had the noise of them in your several countries ; and , god be thanked , they were but noise , without any worse effects . to cure the distempers , and compose the differing minds that are yet amongst us , i set forth my declaration of the th of december . in which you may see , i am willing to set bounds to the hopes of some , and to the fears of others ; of which , when you shall have examined well the grounds , i doubt not but i shall have your concurrence therein . the truth is , i am , in my nature , an enemy to all severity for religion and conscience , how mistaken soever it be , when it extends to capital and sanguinary punishments ; which ; i am told , were began in popish times . therefore , when i say this , i hope i ●…hall not need to warn any here , not to inferr from thence , that i mean to favour popery . i must confess to you , there are many of that profession , who , having served my father , and my self very well , may fairly hope for some part in that indulgence , i would willingly afford to others who dissent from us . but let me explain my self , lest some mistake me herein , as i heard they did in my declaration : i am far from meaning by this , a toleration , or qualifying them thereby to hold any offices , or places of trust in the government . nay , further ; i desire some laws may be made , to hinder the growth and progress of their doctrine . i hope you have all so good an opinion of my zeal for the protestant religion , as i need not tell you , i will not yield to any therein , not to the bishops themselves ; nor in my liking the uniformity of it , as it is now established ; which being the standard of our religion , must be kept pure , and uncorrupted , free from all other mixtures . and yet , if the dissenters will demcan themselves peaceably and modestly under the government , i could heartily wish , i had such a power of indulgence to use upon occasion . — sir geo. treby . pray sir , read that out distinctly . clerk reads . — i could heartily wish i had such a power of indulgence to use upon occasion , as might not needlesly force them out of the kingdom ; or , staying here , give them cause to conspire against the peace of it . my lords , and gentlemen : it would look like flattering in me , to tell you , in what degree i am confident of your wisdom and affection in all things that relate to the greatness and prosperity of the kingdom . if you consider well what is best for us all , i dare say , we shall not disagree . i have no more to say to you at present , but , once again , to bid you heartily welcome . mr. finch the next thing we shall shew you is , that after the king had made this speech , and wished he had such a power of indulgence to use upon occasion , there was a bill in the house of lords brought in , to enable the king to dispense with several laws : we shall shew you the journal , where it was read and committed ; but further than that it went not . l. c. i. what use do you make of this , mr. finch ? sir rob. sawyer . you may easily apprehend the use we shall make of it . ( the king , in his speech , says , he wish'd he had such a power ; ) the house of lords thought he had not ; and therefore they order'd a bill to be brought in , to enable him . — read the journal of the lords , of the th of march , . clerk reads . die veneris xiii o die martii , . after some debate , whether the house should be put into a grand committee , for the further debate of the bill concerning his majesty's power in ecclesiastical affairs , it was put to the question ; ( viz. ) . as many of your lordships as would have this house adjourned , and put into a committee , to consider of the said bill , say , content ; others , not content . passed in the affirmative . and then the lord chamberlain of the houshold was directed to take the chair , as formerly ; which he did accordingly . and after debate , the house was resumed , after the grand committee had appointed a sub-committee , touching the said bill . sir rob. sawyer . this is all in the journal of the house of lords , about this matter . — we will now shew you the bill it self . clerk reads . an act concerning his majesty's power in ecclesiastical affairs . whereas divers of his majesty's subjects , through error of judgment , and mis-guided consciences ( whereunto the licentiousness of these late unhappy times have much contributed ) do not conform themselves to the order of divine worship and service established by law ; and although his majesty and both houses of parliament are fully satisfied , that those scruples of conscience , from whence this nonconformity ariseth , are ill grounded ; and that the government of the church , with the service thereof ( as now established ) is the best that is any where extant , and most effectual to the preservation of the protestant religion : yet hoping that clemency and indulgence may , in time , wear out those prejudices , and reduce the dissenters to the unity of the church ; and considering that this indulgence , how necessary soevever , cannot be dispensed by any certain rule , but must vary , according to the circumstances of time , and the temper and principles of those , to whom it is to be granted ; and his majesty being the best judge , when , and to whom this indulgence is to be dispensed , or as may be most consistent with the publick peace , and without just cause of offence to others ; and to the end his majesty may be enabled to exercise it with universal satisfaction , be it enacted by the king 's most excellent majesty , by advice , and with the consent of the lords spiritual and temporal , and commons , in this present parliament assembled ; and by the authority thereof , that the king's majesty may , by letters patents under the great seal , or by such other ways as to his majesty shall seem meet , dispense with one act , or law , made the last session of this present parliament ( intituled , an act for the uniformity of publick prayers , and administration of the sacraments , and other rites and ceremonies ; and for establishing the form of making , and ordaining , and consecrating bishops , priests and deueotis in the church of england ) and with any other laws or statutes concerning the same ; or requiring oaths , or subscriptions ; or which do enjoin conformity to the order , discipline and worship established in this church , and the penalties in the said laws imposed , or any of them : and may grant ●…fences to such of his majesty's subjects of the protestant-religion , of whose inoffensive and peaceable disposition his majesty shall be perswaded , to enjoy and use the exercise of their religion and worship , though differing from the publick rule ; ( the said laws and statutes , or any disabilities , incapacities , or penalties , in them , or any of them contained , or any matter or thing to the contrary thereof notwithstanding . ) provided always , and be it enacted , that no such indulgence , licence , or dispensation hereby to be granted , shall extend , or be construed to extend to the tolerating , or permitting the use or exercise of the popish , or roman catholick religion in this kingdom ; nor to enable any person or persons , to hold or exercise any place or office of publick trust within this kingdom , who , at the beginning of this present parliament , were , by the laws and statutes of this realm , disenabled thereunto ; nor to exempt any person or persons from such penalties , as are by law to be inflicted upon such as shall publish or preach any thing to the depravation , or derogation of the book of common prayer , or the government , order and ceremonies of the church established by law. provided also , and be it enacted , that no such licence or dispensation shall extend to make any priest or minister capable of any ecclesiastical living or benefice , with cure , who shall not , before the archbishop of the province , or bishop of the diocess , where he lives , make such subscription to the articles of religion , as is enjoined by the statute of the th of elizabeth , made for reformation of disorders in the church . nor shall extend , or be construed to extend to dispense with the book of common prayer : but that the said book shall be constantly read in all the cathedral and collegiate churches , and in all the parish-churches , and publick chapels . sir rob. sawyer . here your lordship sees what the lords did in this matter . — we shall now shew you , out of the commons journal , what they did , concerning this speech of the king. — shew the journal of the th of february , . mr. jodrell sworn . l. c. i. did you examine that , mr. iodrell ? mr iodrell . it is the original book . the book delivered into the court. clerk reads . die mercurii xxv o die februarii , car. ii. resolved , that it be presented . — sir rob. sawyer . you must begin above . — the house then took into debate — clerk reads . the house then took into debate the matter touching indulgence to dissenters , from the act of uniformity . the question being put , that the present debate be adjourned till to-morrow morning . the house was divided . the yeas went out . sir iohn goodrick , and sir william lowther , tellers for the noes ; with the noes , . sir richard temple , and sir iohn talbott , tellers for the yeas ; with the yeas , . and so it passed in the negative . resolved , &c. that it be presented to the king's majesty , as the humble advice of this house , that no indulgence be granted to the dissenters , from the act of uniformity — mr. soll. gen. does your lordship think it to be evidence ? l. c. i. let them read it , mr. sollicitor , that we may hear what it is . clerk reads on . ordered that a committee be appointed to collect and bring in the reasons of this house for this vote , upon the present debate ; to be presented to his majesty , and that the nominating of the committee be adjourned till to morrow morning . sir rob. sawyer . that 's all . mr. s. g. pray , if there be any thing more , read on ; you shall not parcel out a record , and take , and leave what you will. mr. finch . did not you parcel out our petition ? mr. s. g. read on , if there be any thing about this matter . clerk. that is all . sir rob. sawyer . turn to the th of february , . clerk reads . veneris xxvii . februarii xv . car , ii. sir heneage finch reports from the committee appointed to collect and bring in the reasons of the house for their vote of advice to the king's majesty ; and in the close of those reasons to add , that the house will assist his majesty with their lives and fortunes , and to pen an address to his majesty for that purpose ; the several reasons and address agreed by the committee in writing , he read in his place , and did after bring up , and deliver the same in at the clerk's table . the first paragraph was read , and upon the question agreed to . the second paragraph was read , and upon the question agreed to . the third was read , and upon the question agreed to . sir rob. sawyer . go over that , and go to the address it self . clerk reads . may it please your most excellent majesty : we your majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects , the knights , citizens and burgesses of the house of commons , in parliament assembled , having with all fidelity and obedience considered of the several matters comprised in your majesty's late gracious declaration of the th of december last , and your most gracious speech at the beginning of this present session , do in the first place for our selves , and in the names of all the commons of england , render unto your sacred majesty the tribute of our most hearty thanks for that infinite grace and goodness wherewith your majesty hath been pleased to publish your royal intention of adhereing to your act of indempnity and oblivion by a constant and religious observance of it ; and our hearts are further enlarged in these returns of thanksgiving , when we consider your majesty's most princely and heroick profession of relying upon the affections of your people , and the abhorring all sorts of military and arbitrary rule : but above all , we can never enough remember to the honour of your majesty's piety , and our own unspeakable comfort , those solemn and most endearing invitations of us your majesty's subjects , to prepare laws to be presented to your majesty against the growth and increase of popery ; and withal , to provide more laws against licenciousness and impiety , at the same time declaring your own resolutions for maintaining the act of uniformity : and it becomes us always to acknowledg and admire your majesty's wisdom in this your declaration , whereby your majesty is pleased to resolve , not only by sumptuary laws , but by your own royal example of frugality , to restrain that excess in mens expences , which is grown so general , and so exorbitant , and to direct our endeavours to find out fit and proper laws for advancement of trade and commerce . after all this , we most humbly beseech your majesty to believe ; that it is with extreme unwillingness and reluctancy of heart that we are brought to differ from any thing which your majesty hath thought fit to propose ; and though we do no ways doubt but that the unreasonable distempers of mens spirits , and the many mutinies and conspiracies which were carried on during the late intervals of parliament , did reasonably encline your majesty to endeavour by your declaration to give some allay to those ill humours , till the parliament assembled , and the hopes of an indulgence , if the parliament should consent to it , especially seeing the pretenders to this indulgence did seem to make some title to it by vertue of your majesty's declaration from bredah ; nevertheless , we your majesty's most dutifill and loyal subjects , who are now returned to serve in parliament from those several parts and places of your kingdom , for which we are chosen , do humbly offer it to your majesty's great wisedom , that it is in no sort adviseable that there be any ' indulgence to such persons who presume to ●…issent from the act of uniformity , and religion established ( for these reasons . ) we ha●…e considered the nature of your majesty's declaration from bredah , and are humbly of opinion , that your majesty ought not to be pressed any further . because it is not a promise in it self , but only a gracious declaration of your majesty's intentions to do what in you lay , and what a parliament should advise your majesty to do , and no such advice was ever given , or thought fit to be offered ; nor could it be otherwise understood , because there were laws of uniformity then in being , which could not be dispenced with but by act of parliament . sir rob. sawyer . this is all that we read this for ; your lordship and the jury see what is here declared by the parliament , that the act of uniformity could not be dispensed with , without an act of parliament . next , my lord , we shall shew you what was done in the year . — read the king's speech the th of february , . the journals of the lords house were delivered in . clerk reads . die mercurii , . febr. . my lords and gentlemen , i am glad to see you here this day . i would have called you sooner together , but that i was willing to ease you and the country , till there were an absolute necessity . since you were last here , i have been forced to a most important , necessary and expensive war , and i make no doubt but you will give me suitable and effectual assistance to go through with it ; i refer you to my declaration for the causes , and indeed the necessity of this war ; and shall now only tell you ; that i might have digested the indignities to my own person , rather than have brought it to this extremity , if the interest as well as the honour of the whole kingdom had not been at stake ; and if i had omitted this conjuncture , perhaps i had not again ever met with the like advantage . you will find that the last supply that you gave me , did not answer expectation for the ends you gave it , the payment of my debts ; therefore i must in the next place recommend them again to your special care. some few days before i declared the war , i put forth my declaration for indulgence to dissenters , and have hitherto found a good effect of it , by securing my peace at home , when i had war abroad ; there is one part in it , that has been subject to misconstructions , which is that concerning the papists , as if more liberty was granted to them than to other recusants , when 't is plain there is less ; for the others have publick places allowed them , and i never intended that they should have any , but only have the freedom of their religion in their own houses , without any concourse of others ; and i could not grant them less than this , when i had extended so much more grace to others , most of them having been loyal , and in the service of me and the king my father : and in the whole course of this indulgence i do not intend that it shall any way prejudice the church , but i will support its rights , and it in its full power . having said this , i shall take it very ill to receive contradiction in what i have done ; and i will deal plainly with you , i am resolved to stick to my declaration . there is one jealousie more which is maliciously spread abroad , and yet so weak and frivolous , that i once thought it not of moment enough to mention ; but it may have gotten some ground with some well-minded people , and that is , that the forces which i have raised in this war were designed to controul law and property ; i wish i had had more forces the last sommer , the want of them then , convinces me , i must raise more against this next spring ; and i do not doubt but you will consider the charge of them in your supplies . i will conclude with this assurance to you , that i will preserve the true reformed protestant religion , and the church , as it is now established in this kingdom , and that no mans property or liberty shall ever be invaded . i leave the rest to the chancellor . mr. s. pomb . now go to the journal of the commons of the th of february , . the journal put in . clerk reads , veneris xiiij . die februarii , . mr. powle reports from the committee appointed to prepare , and draw up a petition and address to his majesty , the said petition and address , which he read in his place , and afterwards delivered the same in at the clerks table , and the same being again twice read , is as followeth , ( viz. ) most gracious sovereign , we your majesties most loyal and faithful subjects , the commons assembled in parliament , do in the first place , as in all duty bound , return your majesty our most humble and hearty thanks , for the many gracious promises and assurances which your majesty has several times during this present parliament given to us , that your majesty would secure and maintain unto us the true reformed protestant religion , our liberties and properties , which most gracious assurances your majesty out of your great goodness has been pleased to renew unto us , more particularly , at the opening of this present session of parliament . and further , we crave leave humbly to represent , that we have with all duty and expedition , taken into our consideration , the several parts of your majesties last speech to us ; and withal , the declaration therein mentioned , for indulgence to dissenters , dated the th of march last . and we find our selves bound in duty to inform your majesty , that penal statutes in matters ecclesiastical , cannot be suspended but by act of parliament . we therefore , the knights , cittizens and burgesses of your majesties house of commons , do most humbly beseech your majesty , that the said laws may have their free course , until it shall be otherwise provided for by act of parliament . and that your majesty would graciously be pleased to give such directions herein , that no apprehensions or jealousies may remain in the hearts of your majesties good and faithful subjects . resolved , &c. that this house doth agree with the committee in the petition and address by them drawn up to be presented to his majesty . sir rob. sawyer . now turn to the th of february , . in the same book . clerk reads . lunae th of february , . mr. secretary coventry reports and presents in writing from his majesty , his answer to the humble petition and address of this house , which was thrice read , and the matter debated , and is as followeth , ( viz. ) charles r. his majesty hath received an address from you , and he hath seriously considered of it , and returns you this answer , that he is very much troubled , that that declaration which he put out for ends so necessary , for the quiet of his kingdom , and especially in that conjuncture , should have proved the cause of disquiet in his house of commons , and give occasion to the questioning of his power in ecclesiasticks , which he finds not done in the reigns of any of his ancestors : he is sure he never had thoughts of using it otherwise than as it hath been intrusted in him , to the peace and establishment of the church of england , and the ease of all his subjects in general . neither does he pretend to the right of suspending any laws , wherein the properties , rights or liberties of any of his subjects are concerned , nor to alter any thing in the established doctrine or discipline of the church of england . but his only design in this , was to take off the penalties the statutes inflicted upon dissenters , which he believes when well considered of , you your selves would not wish executed according to the rigour and letter of the law ; neither hath he done this with any thought of avoiding or precluding the advice of his parliament ; and if any bill shall be offered , which shall appear more proper to attain the aforesaid ends , and secure the peace of the church and kingdom , when tendred in due manner to him , he will shew how readily he will concur in all ways that shall appear good for the kingdom . sir rob. sawyer . turn to the th of february , . clerk read . die mercurii xxij . february , . mr. powle reports from the committee , appointed to consider of an answer to return to his majesties last message , upon the debate of the house , an answer agreed by the committee , and drawn up , and put into writing , which he read in his place , and then delivered the same in at the clerks table , where it was twice read , and is as followeth , ( viz. ) most gracious sovereign , we your majesties most humble and loyal subjects , the knights , citizens and burgesses in this present parliament assembled , do render to your most sacred majesty , our most dutiful thanks , for that to our unspeakable comfort , your majesty has been pleased so often to reiterate unto us those gracious promises and assurances of maintaining the religion now established , and the liberties and properties of your people ; and we do not in the least measure doubt but that your majesty had the same gracious intention in giving satisfaction to your subjects , by your answer to our last petition and address ; yet upon a serious consideration thereof , we find that the said answer is not sufficient to clear the apprehensions that may justly remain in the minds of your people , by your majesties having claimed a power to suspend penal statutes in matters ecclesiastical , and which your majesty does still seem to assert in the said answer , to be intrusted in the crown , and never questioned in the reigns of any of your ancestors . wherein we humbly conceive your majesty has been very much misinformed : since no such power ever was claimed or exercised by any of your majesties pred●…ssors ; and if it should be admitted , might tend to the interrupting the free course of the laws , and altering the legislative power , which hath always been acknowledged to reside in your majesty , and your two houses of parliament . we therefore with an unanimous consent become again most humble suiters unto your sacred majesty , that you would be pleased to give us a full and satisfactory answer to our said petition and address , and that your majesty would take such effectual order , that the proceedings in this matter may not for the future be drawn into consequence or example . the answer to his majesties message , was again read by paragraphs , and the several paragraphs to the last , were upon the question severally agreed . the last paragraph being read , and the question being put , that the word unanimous should stand in the paragraph . the house divided . — the noes go out . tellers , lord st. iohn mr. vaughan for the yeas , . sir richard temple sir philip howard for the noes , . and so it was resolved in the affirmative . the question being put to agree to the paragraph , it was resolved in the affirmative . resolved , &c. that the whole address be agreed to , as it was brought in by the committee . sir rob. sawyer , now turn to the lords journal , and there your lordship will see , that the king does communicate this address to the lords , and desires their advice . read the st of march , . clerk reads , die sabbati primo die marcii , . his majesty this day made a short speech , as follows . my lords , you know , that at the opening of this session , i spoke here to your satisfaction ; it has notwithstanding , begotten a greater disquiet in the house of commons , than i could have imagined . i received an address from them , which i looked not for , and i made them an answer that ought to have contented them ; but on the contrary , they have made me a reply of such a nature , that i cannot think fit to proceed any further in this matter without your advice . i have commanded the chancellor to acquaint you with all the transactions , wherein you will find both me and your selves highly concerned : i am sensible for what relates to me , and i assure you , my lords , i am not less so for the priviledg , and the honour of this house . afterwards the lord chancellor read the several papers of addresses of the house of commons , and his majesties answer thereunto , and opened his majesties proceedings upon them . the address of the house of commons was read . sir rob. sawyer . pass over that , you have read it already . clerk reads , the next , his majesties answer to the address of the house of commons , was read as follows , — sir rob. sawyer . that hath been read too . clerk reads , then was read the reply of the house of commons to his majesties answer , as followeth , — mr. finch . you have read that likewise . clerk reads , upon this it is ordered , that the lord treasurer , duke of buckingham , earl of bridgwater , earl of northampton , earl of bristol , earl of berks , earl of bullingbrook , and the earl of anglesy , do forthwith withdraw and consider what humble thanks is fit to be given to his majesty for his great favour in communicating this business to this house , and report the same . and accordingly , the said lords committees did withdraw themselves for that purpose . the lords being returned , the duke of buckingham reported what the committee had prepared to present to his majesty by way of thanks , which was read as followeth . we the lords spiritual and temporal in parliament assembled , do unanimously present to your sacred majesty , our most humble thanks , for having been pleased to communicate to us , what has passed between your majesty and the house of commons , whereby you have graciously offered us the means of shewing our duty to your majesty , and of asserting the ancient just rights and priviledges of the house of peers . the question being put , whether to agree with the committee . it was resolved in the affirmative . ordered that his majesty be desired , that his speech , and the papers read this day , may be entred into the journal book of this house . the lord treasurer , the duke of buckingham , and the lord chamberlain , are appointed to attend his majesty presently , to know his pleasure , what time and place , this whole house shall wait upon him , to present the humble thanks of this house , for his great favour shewed this day . ordered , that upon monday morning next , this house will debate the whole matter of his majesties speech , and these papers ; and to consider the points of priviledg , and what else may arise thereupon . the lords that were appointed to attend his majesty , return with this answer . that his majesty has appointed this afternoon at five of the clock , for this house to wait upon him in the banquetting-house at whitehall . ordered that all the judges now in town , shall attend this house on monday morning next . sir rob. sawyer . the d of march , . is the next . clerk reads , die laine . die marcil , . the lord chancellor reported , that the whole house on saturday last , waited upon his majesty at whitehall , and presented the humble address of this house , and his majesty was pleased to return this answer . my lords , it ake this address of yours very kindly ; i will always be very affectionate to you , ●…nd expect you should stand by me , as i will always by you . then the house took into consideration the whole matter of his majesties speech on saturday , and the three papers which his majesty acquainted this house withal , and all the said papers in their order were read , and after a long debate , the question being put , whether this house shall in the first place enter into consideration of giving advice to his majesty ? it was resolved in the affirmative . it is ordered , that this business shall be taken into consideration to morrow morning , at nine of the clock , the first business . ordered that the judges now in town , shall attend to morrow morning . sir rob. sawyer . the th of march , . clerk reads , next , the house took into consideration the advice to be given to his majesty concerning the addresses made to him from the house of commons . the addresses of the house of commons , and his majesties answer were read , and after a long debate , the question being put , whether the king's answer to the house of commons in referring the points now controverted to a parliamentary way by bill , is good and gracious , that being a proper and natural course for satisfaction therein . it was resolved in the affirmative . sir rob. saywer . the th of march , . clerk reads , die sabbati die marcii , . his majesty in his royal throne , adorned with his crown and regal ornaments , commanded the gentleman usher of the black rod , to give notice to the house of commons , that they attend his majesty presently . the commons being come with their speaker , his majesty made this short speech , following . my lords and gentlemen , yesterday you presented me an address , as the best means for the satisfying and composing the minds of my subjects , to which i freely and readily agreed , and i shall take care to see it performed accordingly . i hope on the other side , you gentlemen of the house of commons will do your part ; for i must put you in mind , it is near five weeks since i demanded a supply , and what you voted unanimously upon it , did both give life to my affairs at home , and dishearten mine enemies abroad ; but the seeming delay it hath met withal since , hath made them to take new courage , and they are now preparing for this next summer a greater fleet , ( as they say ) than ever they have had yet , so that if the supply be not very speedily dispatcht , it will be altogether ineffectual , and the safety , honour and interest of england , must of necessity be exposed . pray lay this to heart , and let not the fears and jealousies of some draw an inevitable ruin upon us all . my lords and gentlemen , if there be any scruple remaining with you , concerning the suspension of penal laws , i here faithfully promise you , that what has been done in that particular , shall not for the future be drawn either into consequence or example . and as i daily expect from you a bill for my supply , so i assure you , i shall as willingly receive and pass any other you shall offer me that may tend to the giving you satisfaction in all your just grievances . next , my lord chancellor reported , that both houses waited upon the king yesterday , and presented him with the address against the growth of popery , and his majesty has been pleased to return this answer . my lords and gentlemen , i do heartily agree with you in your address , and shall give speedy order to have it put in execution ; there is one part to which i believe it is not your intention that it should extend ; for i can scarce say , those are in my pay , that are presently to be imployed abroad ; but as for all other parts , i shall take care it shall be done as you desire . after which the lord chancellor said , he had somewhat more to impart to the house by the kings command , which was , that his majesty last night , having spoken with several members of both houses , found some dissatisfaction remaining concerning his answer to their address in the particular of the officers to be employed abroad , of which number he had five or six that were of the best officers of france and flanders , and being his ●…wn subjects , he had been very sollicitous to get ; but if that bred any umbrage , the king commanded him to let them know , that he resolves to give both his houses full satisfaction to their desires . there was another particular that the lord chancellor said he thought fit to acquaint them with , which , though it was by his majesty's leave , yet it was not by his command , however he thought it his duty to acquaint the house with it , ( mr. secretary coventry intending to acquaint the house of commons with the same ) that his majesty had the last night , in pursuance of what he then intended , and declared this morning , concerning the suspension of penal laws not being for the future drawn either into consequence or example , caused the original declaration , under the great seal , to be cancelled in his presence , whereof himself and several other lords of the council were witnesses . sir rob. sawyer . turn to the th of march , . clerk reads . die lune decimo die marcil , . ordered , that what my lord chancellor said on saturday last concerning his majesty's causing the vacating his indulgence under the great seal of enggland , shall be entred into the journal-book of this house as on saturday last . sir rob. sawyer . we shall now come to that which past in the parliament in . — read the th of november . the journal of the lords , . put in . clerk reads . his majesty being on his royal throne adorned with his regal robes and crown ( the lords being in their robes also ) commanded the gentleman usher to give notice to the house of commons that they immediately attend his majesty ; who being come , his majesty made the following speech . my lords and gentlemen , after the storm that seemed to be coming upon us when we parted last , i am glad to meet you all again in so great peace and quietness ; god almighty be praised , by whose blessing that rebellion was suppressed ; but when i reflect what an inconsiderable number of men began it , and how long they carried it on without any opposition , i hope every body will be convinced that the militia , which hath hitherto been so much depended upon , is not sufficient for such occasions , and that there is nothing but a good force of well disciplined troops in constant pay that can defend us from such as either at home or abroad are disposed to disturb us . and , in truth , my concern for the peace and quiet of my subjects , as well as for the safety of the government , made me think it necessary to increase the number to the proportion i have done ; this i owed as well to the honour as to the security of the nation , whose reputation was so infinitely exposed unto all our neigbours , by having lain open to this late wretched attempt ; that it is not to be repaired without keeping such a body of men on foot , that none may ever have the thoughts again of finding us so miserably unprovided . it is for the support of this great charge , which is now more than double to what it was , that i ask your assistance in giving me a supply answerable to the expence it brings along with it ; and i cannot doubt , but what i have begun so much for the honour and defence of the government , will be continued by you with all the chearfulness and readiness that is requisite for a work of so great importance . let no man take exception that there are some officers in the army not qualified according to the late tests for their imployments : the gentlemen , i must tell you , are most of them well known to me , and having formerly served with me on several occasions , and always approved the loyalty of their principles by their practices , i think them fit now to be employed under me ; and will deal plainly with you , that after having had the benefit of their services in such time of need and danger , i will neither expose them to disgrace , nor my self to the want of them , if there should he another rebellion to make them necessary to me . i am afraid some men may be so wicked to hope and expect that a difference may happen between you and me upon this occasion ; but when you consider what advantages have risen to us in a few months by the good understanding we have hitherto had , what wonderful effects it has already produced in the change of the whole scene of affairs abroad , so much more to the honour of the nation , and the figure it ought to make in the world , and that nothing can hinder a further progress in this way , to all our satisfactions , but fears and jealousies amongst our selves : i will not apprehend that such a misfortune can befall us as a division , or but a coldness between me and you ; nor that any thing can shake you in your steadiness and loyalty to me , who , by god's blessing , will ever make you all returns of kindness and protection , with a resolution to venture even my own life in the defence of the true interest of this kingdom . sir rob. sawyer . turn to the commons journal the th of november , . the journal of the house of commons put in . clerk reads . die lune xvi . die novemb. . most gracious sovereign : we your majesty's most loyal and faithful subiects , the commons in parliament assembled , do in the first place ( as in duty bound ) return your majesty our most humble and hearty thanks for your great care and conduct in the suppression of the late rebellion , which threatned the overthrow of this government both in church and state , and the uttermost extirpation of our religion by law established , which is most dear unto us , and which your majesty has been pleased to give us repeated assurances you will always defend and support , which with all grateful hearts we shall ever acknowledg . we further crave leave to acquaint your majesty , that we have with all duty and readiness taken into our consideration your majesty's gracious speech to us ; and as to that part of it relating to the officers in the army not qualified for their imployment according to an act of parliament made in the th year of the reign of your majesty's royal brother of blessed memory , intituled , an act for preventing danger that may happen by popish recusants : we do out of our bounden duty humbly represent unto your majesty , that those officers cannot by law be capable of their imployments , and that the incapacities they bring upon themselves thereby , can no ways be taken off but by act of parliament . therefore out of the great deference and duty we owe unto your majesty ( who has been graciously pleased to take notice of their services to you ) we are preparing a bill to pass both houses for your royal assent , to indemnify them from the penalties they have now incurred ; and because the continuance of them in their employments may be taken to be a dispencing with that law without act of parliament , the consequence of which is of the greatest concern to the rights of all your majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects , and to all the laws made for the security of their religion ; we therefore , the knights , citizens and burgesses of your majesty's house of commons , do most humbly beseech your majesty , that you would be graciously pleased to give such directions therein , that no apprehensions or iealousies may remain in the hearts of your majesty's good and faithful subjects . mr. polixfen . my lord , we pray that these half dozen lines of the statute eliz. may be read . a statute-book was then produced by mr. ince . l. c. j. no , we will have it read out of our own book , which was delivered into court. clerk reads . this is eliz. cap. . an act for uniformity of religion , &c. whereabout is it ? mr. ince . 't is the th paragraph , [ at these words ] — and for the due execution , &c. clerk reads . and for due execution hereof the queens most excellent majesty the lords spiritual and temporal in this present parliament assembled , do in gods name earnestly require and charge all the archbishops , bishops , and other ordinaries , that they shall endeavour themselves to , the utmost of their knowledge , that the due and true execution hereof may be had throughout their diocesses and charges , as they will answer before god for such evils and plagues , wherewith almighty god may justly punish his people for neglecting this good and wholsome law. mr. serjeant levinz . no●… my lord , if your lordship pleases , the charge is a charge for a libel , and there are two things to be considered . first . whether the bishops did deliver this paper the king ? 〈◊〉 tha●… leave upon the evidence that has been given , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 say , them has been no direct proof of that . in the next place , supposing they did deliver this petition to the king , whether this be a libel upon the matter of it , the manner of delivering it , 〈◊〉 the persons that did it ? and with submission , my lord , this cannot be a libel , although it 〈◊〉 true that they did so deliver it . first , my lord , there is a little disingenuity offered to my lords the bishops , in only setting forth part and no●… the whole , in only reciting the body 〈◊〉 not the prayer . but , my lord , with your lordships favour , taking the petitionary part , and adding it to the other , it quite alters the nature of the thing for it may be , a complaint without seeking redress might be an 〈◊〉 ●…atter ; but here taking the whole together , it appears to be a complaint of a grievance , and a desire to be eased of it . with your lordships favour , the subjects have a right to petition the king in all their grievances , so say all our books of law , and so says the statute of the thirteenth of the late king ; they may petition , and come and deliver 〈◊〉 ●…tion under the number of ten , as heretofore they might have done , ( says the statute ) so that they all times have had a right so to do and indeed if they had not , it were the most lamentable thing in the world , that men must have grievances upon them , and yet they not to be admitted to seek relief in an humble ●…ay . now , my lord , this is a petition setting forth a grievance , and praying his majesty to give relief . and what is this grievance ? it is that command of his , by that order made upon my lords the bishops , to distribute the declaration , and cause it to be read in the churches : and pray , my lord , let us consider , what the effects and consequences of that distribution and reading i●… ; it is to tell the people , that they need not submit to the act of unifarmity , no●… to any act of parliament made about ecclesiastical matters , for they are suspended and dispensed with ; this my lords the bishops must do , if they obey this order ; but your lordship sees , if they do it , they lie under an anathema by the statute of eliz. for there they are under a curse if they do not look to the preservation and observation of that act ; but this command to distribute and read the declaration , whereby all these laws are dispensed with , is to let the people know , they will not do what that act requires of them . now , with your lordships favour , my lords the bishops lying under this pressure , the weight of which was 〈◊〉 grievous upon them , they by petition apply to the king to be eased of it , which they might do , a●… subjects ▪ besides , my lord , they are peers of the realm , and were most of them sitting as such , in the last parliament , where ( as you have heard ) it was declared , such a dispensation could not be , and then in what a case should they have been , if they should have distributed this declaration , which was so co●… to their own actings in parliament ; what could they have answered for themselves , had they thus contributed to this declaration ? when they had themselves before declared , that the king could not dispense . and that was no new thing , for it had been so declared in a parliament before , in two sessions of it , in the late kings reign , within a very little time one of another ; and such a parliament that were so liberal in their aides in the crown , that a man would not think they should go about 〈◊〉 deprive the crown of any of its rights ; it was a parliament that did do as great services for the ●…own as ●…ver any did , and therefore there is no reason to suspect , that if the king 〈◊〉 had such a power , they would have appeared so earnest against it . but , my lord , if your lordship pleases , these are not the beginnings of this matter , for we have shewed you from the fifteenth of richard the second that there was a power granted by the parliament to the king to dispense with a particular act of parliament , which argues , that it could not be without an act of parliament . and in , 't is said expresly , that they cannot be dispensed with , but by an act of parliament : 't is said so again in , the king was then pleased to assume to himself such a power , as is pretended to in this declaration 〈◊〉 yet , upon information from his houses of parliament , the king declared himself satisfied , that he had no such power , cancelled his declaration , and promised , that it should not be drawn into consequence or example . and so the commons by their protestation said in richard the seconds time , that it was a novelty , and should not be drawn into consequence or example . now , my lord , if your lordship pleases , if this matter that was commanded the bishops to do , were something which the law did not allow of , surely then , my lords , the bishops had all the reason in the world to apply themselves to the king , in an humble manner to acquaint him , why they could not obey his commands ; and to seek relief against that , which lay so heavy upon them . truly , my lord mr. attorney was very right in the opening of this cause at first , that is , that the government ought not to receive affronts , no , nor the inferior officers are not to be affronted , a justice of peace , so low a man in office , is not , for a man to say to a justice of peace , when he is executing his office , that he does not do right , is a great crime ; and mr. attorney said right in it ; but suppose a justice of peace were making of a warrant to a constable , to do something that was not legal for him to do , if the constable should petition this justice of the peace , and therein set forth , sir , you are about to command me to do a thing , which , i conceive , is not legal , surely that would not be a crime that he was to be punished for , for he does but seek relief , and shew his grievance in a proper way , and the distress he is under . my lord , this is the bishops case with submission , they are under a distress , being commanded to do a thing which they take not to be legal , and they , with all humility by way of petition , acquaint the king with this distress of theirs , and pray him , that he will please to give relief . my lord , there is no law , but is either an act of parliament , or the common law , for an act of parliament there is none for such a power , all that we have of it in parliamentary proceedings , is against it ; and for the common law , ( so far as i have read o●…it ) i never did meet with any thing of such a nature , as a grant or dispensation that pretended to dispense with any one whole act of parliament ; i have not so much as heard of any such thing mentioned by any of the kings council ; but here , my lord , is a dispensation that dispenses with a great many laws at once , truly , i cannot take upon me to tell how many , there may be forty or above , ( for ought i know , ) therefore , my lord , the bishops lying under such a grievance as this , and under such a pressure , being ordered to distribute this declaration in all their churches , which was to tell the people they ought to be under no law in this case , which surely was a very great pressure , both in point of law and conscience too , they lying under such obligations to the contrary , as they did . with submission to your lordship and you , gentlemen of the jury , if they did deliver this petition , ( publishing of it i will not talk of , or there has been no proof of a publication ) but a delivering of a petition to his majesty in the most secret and decent manner that could be imagined : my lords the bishops are not guilty of the matter charged upon them in this information ; it has been expresly proved , that they did not go to disperse it abroad , but only deliver'd it to the king himself ; and , in short , my lord , if this should be a libel , i know not how sad the condition of us all would be , it we may not petition , when we suffer . mr. finch . my lord , i challenge them to shew us any one instance of such a declaration , such a general dispensation of laws from the conquest , till . the first umbrage of such a thing is , that of 〈◊〉 but your lordship he●…s the declaration of the parliament upon it . before that , as there was no such thing , so your lordship sees , what the parliament did to enable the king ( not to do this thing , but something like it ) in richard the seconds time , where you see the parliament did give the king a power to dispense with the statute of provisors for a time ; but at the same time declared , that very grant of their own , to be a novelty , and that it should not be drawn into consequence or example . my lord , we shall leave it upon this point , to suspend laws is all one , as to abrogate laws , for so long as a law is suspended , whether the suspension be temporary , or whether it be for ever , whether it be at once or at several times , the law is abrogated to all intents and purposes : but the abrogation of laws is part of the legislature , that legislative power is lodged ( as i said before ) and i could never find it otherwise in all our law ) in king , lords , and commons — ld. ch. iust. you did open that before mr. finch . mr. finch . with this my lord , that my lords the bishops finding this order , made upon them to publish this declaration , did what in duty they were bound to do , and unless the jury do find , that they have done that which is contrary to law , and to the duty of their places , and that this petition is a libel , and a seditious libel , with an intent to stir up sedition among the people , ( we rely upon it , ) my lords , the bishops , can never be found guilty upon this information . ld. ch. iust. have you now done , gentlemen ? mr. finch . yes , my lord , till they give us further occasion , if they have any other evidence to offer , we must answer it , if not , this is the answer we give to what they have said . mr. solicit . gen. we make no bargain with you : if you have done , say so . ld. ch. iust. you must know , that you are not to have the last word . mr. solicit . gen. you have been three hours already , if you have any more to say , pray , conclude . mr. finch . if they say they have no more evidence , then we know what we have to do . ld. ch. iust. if you do say any thing more , pray let me advise you one thing , don't say the same thing over and over again , for after so much time spent , it is ●…irksome to all company , as well as to me . mr. finch . my lord , we have no more evidence to offer to your lordship at present , unless they , by offering new evidence , give us occasion to reply upon them . ld. ch. iust. gentlemen , you shall have all the legal favour and advantage that can be ; but , pray , let us keep to an orderly decent method of proceeding . sr. rob. sawyer . pray , my lord , favour me a word before we conclude , my lord , i do find very few attempts of this nature , in any , kings reign . in the reign of henry the fourth , there was an act of parliament that foreigners should have a free trade in the city of london , notwithstanding the franchises of london ; after the parliament rose , the king issued out his proclamation , forbidding the execution of that law , and commanding that it should be in suspence , usque ad proximum parliamentum , yet that was held to be against law. ld. ch. iust. sir robert sawyer , that which you are to look to , is the publishing of this paper , and whether it be a libel or no. and as to the business of the parliaments you mentioned , they are not to the purpose . sir rob. sawyer . my lord , i say , i would put it where the question truly lyes if they don't dispute the point , then we need not labour it ; but i dont know whether they will or no , and therefore i beg your lordships favour to mention one case more , and that is upon the statute of hen. . cap. . which enables the king by proclamation in many cases to create the law , which statute was repealed by . edw. . cap. . that very act does recite , that the law is not to be altered , or restrained , but by act of parliament , and therefore the parliament enables the king to do so and so : but that was such a power , that the parliament thought not fit to continue , and it was afterwards repealed , but it shews , that at that time the parliament was of the same opinion , as to this matter , that other parliaments have been since . mr. sommers . my lord , i would only mention the great case of thomas and sorrel in the exchequer chamber upon the validity of a dispensation of the statute of edward the sixth , touching selling of wine . there it was the opinion of every one of the judges , and they did lay it down as a setled position , that there never could be an abrogation , or a suspension , ( which is a temporary abrogation , ) of an act of parliament , but by the legislative power . that was a foundation laid down quite thorough the debate of that case : indeed it was disputed , how far the king might dispense with the penalties in such a particular law , as to particular persons , but it was agreed , by all , that the king had no power to suspend any law : and , my lord i dare appeal to mr. attorney general himself , whether in the case of godden and hales , which was lately in this court , to make good that dispensation , he did not use it as an argument then , that it could not be expounded into a suspension , he admitted , it not to be in kings power , to suspend a law , but that he might give a dispensation to a particular person , was all , that he took upon him to justifie at that time . my lord , by the law of all civilized nations , if the prince does require something to be done , which the person ( who is to do it ) takes to be unlawful , it is not only lawful , but his duty , rescribere principi , this is all that is done here , and that in the most humble manner , that could be thought of ; your lordship will please to observe how far it went , how careful they were , that they might not any way justly offend the king. they did not interpose by giving advice , as peers , they never stirr'd till it was brought home to themselves , when they made their petition , all they beg , is , that it may not so far be insisted upon by his majesty , as to oblige them , to read it , whatever they thought of it , they do not take upon them to desire the declaration to be revoked . my lord , as to mattters of fact alledged in the said petition , that they are perfectly true , we have shewn by the journals of both houses . in every one of those years , which are mentioned in the petition , this power of dispensation was considered in parliament , and , upon debate , declared to be contrary to law , there could be no design to diminish the prerogative , because the king hath no such prerogative . seditious , my lord , it could not be , nor could possibly stir up sedition in the minds of the people , because it was presented to the king , in private and alone , false it could not be , because the matter of it is true . there would be nothing of malice , for the occasion was not sought , the thing was pressed upon them , and a libel it could not be , because the intent was innocent , and they kept within the bounds set by the act of parliament , that gives the subject leave to apply to his prince by petition , when he is agrieved . mr. att. gen. have you done , gentlemen ? mr. finch . we have done , sir. mr. att. gen. my lord , i shall be a great deal more merciful to your lordship , and the jury , than they have been , who have spent these four hours , in that which i think is not pertinent to the case in question : they have let themselves into large discourses , making great complaints of the hardships put upon my lords , the bishops , by the order of councel to read his majesties declaration ; and putting these words into the information of seditious , malicious and scandalous : but , my lord , i admire that sir robert sawyer should make such reflections , and observations upon these words , when i am sure he will scarce find any one of his own exhibiting , that has so few of those aggravating words as this has , and therefore , that might have been very well spared , especially by him . in the next place , my lord , we are told , what great danger our religion is in by this declaration , i hope we have an equal concern for that with them , or any person else whatsoever : but however , i am sure our religion teaches us , not to preserve our religion , or our lives , by any illegal courses , and the question is , whether the course that my lords the bishops have taken to preserve ( as they say ) our religion , be legal or not ; if it be not legal , then i am sure our religion will not justifie the using such a course , for never so good an end. my lord , for the thing it self , i do admire that they , in so long a time and search that they have made , should not ( which i expected ) produce more presidents of such a paper as this is ; they challenge us to shew , that ever there was any such declaration as this , i 'le turn the same challenge upon them ; shew me any one instance , that ever so many bishops did come under pretence of a petition , to reflect upon the king out of parliament . sir robert sawyer . is that your way of answering , mr. attorney . mr. attorney general . pray , sir robert sawyer , you have had your time , don't interrupt us sure we have as much right to be heard as you . lord chief iustice. you have been heard over and over again , sir robert sawyer , already . sir robert sawyer . my lord , i don't intend to interrupt him . mr. solicitor general . we cannot make them be quiet , they will still be chopping in upon us . mr. attorney general . that is an art that some people have always practised , not to permit any body to speak , but themselves . but , my lord , i say , that those few instances , that they have produced , are nothing at all to this matter , that is now upon trial before your lordship and this jury ; nay , they are evidences against them , for they are only matters transacted in parliament , which are no more to be applied to this thing that is in controversy now , than any the most remote matter that could be thought of ; and though they have gone so high in point of time , as to the reign of richard the second , yet they have nothing between that and the late kings reign , to which at last they have descended down . but , my lord , i say , that all the talk of richard the seconds time is wholly out of the case ; truly , i do not doubt , but that in richard the seconds time they might find a great many instances of some such sort of petitioning as this , for our histories tell us , that at that time they had men in arms against the king , and we know the troubles that were in that kings reign , and how at length he was deposed ; but certainly there may be found instances more applicable to the case , than those they produce ; as for those in king charles the seconds time , do they any ways justifie this petition ? for now they are upon justifying the words of their petition , that this power has been declared to be illegal in , , and . for what was done in , do they shew any thing more than some debates in the house of commons ? and at last an address , an answer by the king , a reply of the commons , and then the thing dies . pray , my lord , is a transaction in the house of commons , a declaration of parliament ? sure , i think , no one will affirm that any thing can be a declaration of parliament , unless he that is the principal part concurs , who is the king ? for if you speak of the court of parliament in a legal sense , you must speak of the whole body , king , lords , and commons , and a declaration in parliament must be by all the whole body , and that is properly an act of parliament . why then they come to the year , where your lordship observes , that the late king did insist upon his right , for after the dispute which was in , his majesty did issue out another declaration , and when it comes to be debated in parliament , he insists upon his right in ecclesiastical matters , and though his declaration was cancelled , yet there is no formal disclaimer of the right . my lord , after all , how far these things that they have offered may work , as to the point that they have debated , i shall not now meddle with it , nor give your lordship any trouble about it , because it is not at all pertinent to the case in question , for i do ( after all this time and pains that they have spent ) take leave to say , that these gentlemen have spent all this time to no purpose . lord ch. iust. yes , mr. attorney , i 'le tell you what they offer , which it will lie upon you to give an answer to ; they would have you shew , how this has disturbed the government , or diminished the kings authority ? mr. att. gen. whether a libel be true or not , as to the matter of fact , was it ever yet in any court of justice permitted to be made a question , whether it be a libel or not ? or whether the party be punishable for it ; and therefore i wonder to hear these gentlemen to say , that because it is not a false one , therefore 't is not a libel : suppose a man should speak scandalous matter of any noble lord here , or of any of my lords the bishops , and a scandalum magnatum be brought for it , though that which is spoken has been true , yet it has been the opinion of the courts of law , that the party cannot justifie it , by reason it tends to the disturbing of the peace , to publish any thing that is matter of scandal ; the only thing that is to be lookt into , is , whether there be any thing in this paper , that is reflecting and scandalous , and not whether it be true or no , for if any man shall extra-iudicially , and out of a legal course and way , reflect upon any of the great officers of the kingdom , nay , if it be but upon any inferior magistrate , he is to be punished , and is not to make his complaint against them , unless he do it in a proper way ; a man may petition a judge , but if any man in that petition shall come and tell the judge , sir , you have given an illegal judgment against me , and i cannot in honour , prudence or conscience obey it , i do not doubt , nor will any man , but that he that should so say would be laid by the heels , though the judgment perhaps might be illegal . if a man shall come to petition the king , as ( we all know ) the council doors are thronged with petitioners every day , and access to the king by petition is open to every body , the most inferior person is allowed to petition the king , but because he may do so , may he therefore suggest what he pleases in his petition , shall he come and tell the king to his face , what he does is illegal ? i only speak this , because they say , in this case , his majesty gave them leave to come to him to deliver their petition ; but the king did not understand the nature of their petition , i suppose , when he said , he gave them leave to come to him . my lord , for this matter we have authority enough in our books , particularly there is the case of wrenham in my lord hobart , the lord chancellor had made a decree against him , and he petitioned the king , that the cause might be re-heard , and in that petition he complains of injustice done him by my lord chancellor , and he put into his petition many reflecting things , this , my lord , was punished as a libel in the star chamber ; and , in that book it was said , that though it be lawful for the subject to petition the king against any proceedings by the judges , yet it must not be done with reflections , nor with words that turn to the accusation or scandal of any of the kings magistrates or officers , and the justice of the decree is not to be questioned in the case ; for there wrenham in his defence would have opened the particulars , wherein he thought the decree was unjust , but that the court would not meddle with , nor would allow him to justifie for such illegality in the decree ; so in this case , you are not to draw in question the truth or falsehood of the matter complained against , for you must take the way the law has prescribed , and prosecute your right in a legal course , and not by scandal and libelling . my lord , there is a great deal of difference between not doing a thing that is commanded , if one be of opinion that it is unlawful , and coming to the king with a petition highly reflecting upon the government , and with scandalous expressions , telling him , sir , you act illegally , you require of us that which is against prudence , honour , or conscience , as my lords the bishops are pleased to do in this petition of theirs . i appeal to any lord here , that if any man should give him such language , either by word of mouth or petition , whether he would bear it , without seeking satisfaction and reparation by the law ? my lord , there is no greater proof of the influence of this matter than the croud of this day , and the ha●…angue that hath been made , is it not apparent that the taking this liberty to canvas and dispute the kings power and authority , and to censure ●…s actions , possess the people with strange opinions , and raises discontents and jealousies , as if the free course of law were restrained , and arbitrary will and pleasure set up instead of it ? my lord , there is one thing that appears upon the face of the information , which shews this not to be the right course , and if my lords the bishops had given themselves the opportunity of reading the declaration seriously , they would have found in the end of the declaration , that the ring was resolved to call a parliament in november ; might not my lords the bishops have acquiesced under their passive obedience till the parliament met ? but nothing would serve them , but this , and this must be done out of parliament , for which there is no president can be shewn , and this must be done in such a manner , as your lordship sees the consequence of , by your trouble of this day . there is one thing i forgot to speak to , they tell us , that it is laid malicious and seditious , and there is no malice or sedition found , we know very well , that that follows the fact , those things arise by construction of law out of the fact. if the thing be illegal , the law says it is seditious , a man shall not come and say , he meant no harm in it : that was the case of williams in his treasonable book , ( says he ) i only intended to warn the king of the danger approaching , and concludes his book with god save the king , but no man will say , that a good preface at the beginning , or a good prayer at the end , should excuse treason , of sedition in the body of a book ; if i meet another man in the street and kill him , though i never saw him in my life , the indictment is , that it was ex malitia praecogitata , as it often happens , that a person kills one he never had acquaintance with before , and in favorem vitae , if the nature of the fact be so , the jury are permitted to find according to the nature of the case , but in strictness of law , there is malice implyed : but , my lord , i think these matters are so common , and that is a point that has been so often setled , that the form of the indictment and information must follow the nature of the fact , that i need not insist upon it , if the act be unlawful , the law supplies the malice , and evil intentions . mr. solicit . gen. my lord and gentlemen of the jury , i am of counsel in this case for the king , and i shall take leave to proceed in this method ; first , i shall put the case of my lords the bishops , and then consider the arguments that have been used in their defence , and answer them as much as is material to be answered ; and then leave it to your lordship and the juries consideration , whether what has been said by these gentlemen , weigh any thing in this case ? first , my lord , i take it for granted , and i think the matter is pretty plain by this time , by my lord presidents evidence , and their own confession ; that it is not to be disputed , but that this paper was presented by these lords to the king , i think there is no great difficulty in that matter at all , but i just touch upon it , because i would follow them in their own method . then , my lord , let us take this case as it is , upon the nature of the petition , and the evidence that they have given , and then let us see , whether that will justifie the thing that is done : for the business of petitioning , i would distinguish and enquire , whether my lords the bishops , out of parliament , can present any petition to the king : i do agree , that in parliament the lords and commons may make addresses to the king , and signifie their desires , and make known their grievances there , and there is no doubt , but that is a natural and proper way of application . for in the beginning of the parliament , there are receivers of petitions appointed ; and upon debates , there are committees appointed , to draw up petitions and addresses , but to come and deduce an argument , that because the lords in parliament have done thus , ( there being such methods of proceedings usual in parliaments ) therefore my lords the bishops may do it out of parliament , that is certainly a non sequitur , no such conclusion can be drawn from those premises . my lord , i shall endeavour to lay the fact before you , as it really is , and then consider , what is proper for the court to take notice of , as legal proof or evidence : and i take it , all those presidents that they have produced , of what the lords did , and what the commons did , in parliament , is no warrant for them to shelter themselves under , against the information here in question . here mr. iust. powel spake aside to the lord chief iustice , thus : mr. iust. powel . my lord , this is strange doctrine ; shall not the subject have liberty to petition the king , but in parliament ? if that be law , the subject is in a miserable case . ld. ch. iust. brother , let him go on , we will hear him out , tho' i approve not of his position . mr. solicit . general . the lords may address to the king in parliament , and the commons may do it , but therefore , that the bishops may do it out of parliament , does not follow . i heard nothing said , that could have given colour to such a thing , but the curse that has been read in elizabeth . but pray , my lord , let us consider that evidence they have given , they have begun with that record in richard the seconds time , and what is that ? that the king may dispe●…se with the statute of provisors , till the meeting of the next parliament , and a protestation of the commons at the end of it , whether that be an act of parliament , that is declaratory of the common law , or introductory of a new law , non constat ; and for ought appears , it might be a declaratory act : and if so , it is a proof of the kings prerogative of dispensing . it might be an act in affirmance of the kings prerogative , as there are a great many such , we very well know ; and generally most of the laws , in that kind , are in affirmance of the kings power , so that the law turns as an argument for the king prerogative , and they have given him that , which will turn upon themselves , so it stood in richard the seconds time , but whether that be an argument one way or other conclusive , is lest to your lordship , and the jury . ay , but say they , there is no execution of such a power , till very lately , and the first instance , that they produce , is , that in the year . but your lordship knows , that before the r●…ign of henry the fourth , there was great jurisdiction assumed by the lords in original causes , then comes the statute of appeals , hen. . which takes notice that before that time , the lords had assumed an original jurisdiction in all causes , and would proceed , and determine them in parliament , and out of parliament , and it fell out to be so great a grievance , that it was thought necessary to make a law against it , that appeals in parliament should be abolished and destroyed , and then comes that law in favour of the subject of england , and that settles the bounds between the king and the lords in a great measure ; before that time , the lords were grown very powerful , and where there is a power , there always will be applications , and what is the effect of that statute hen. . for all that we endeavour , is , to make things as plain can be , that no further applications , no accusations , no proceedings in any case whatsoever be before the lords in parliament , unless it be by impeachment of the commons ; so that there is the salvo ; and the use that i make of it , is this , the commons by that very statute did abolish the power that the lords had arrogated to themselves , and ordered , that they should not meddle with any cause , but upon the impeachment of the house of commons , and establish the impeachment of the commons , which is as ancient as the parliament , for that was never yet spoken against ; the power of the commons impeaching any person under the degree of the prince , and that is the regular legal way , and so the commons asserted their ancient right , and whatsoever the lords took notice of , must come by application of the commons , then conferences were to pass between the houses , and both houses by address apply to the king , this is the proper way and course of parliament ; of which thy lord cook says , it is known to few , and practised by fewer , but it is a venareble , honourable way , and this is the course that should have been taken by my lords here , and they should have stayed till the complaint had come from the commons in parliament , and then it had been regular for them to address to the king ; but they were too quick , too nimble . and whereas the statute of hen. . says , that no lord whatsoever shall intermeddle with any cause , but by the impeachment of the commons , they interpose and give their advice before their time ; if there be any irregularity in parliament , or out of parliament , the commons are to make their complaint of it , and a man must not be his own judg , nor his own carver , nor must every man create difficulties of his own , nor set upon petitioning in this sort : but there i lay my foundation , that in such a matter as this , there ought to have been the impeachment of the commons in parliament before these lords could do any thing ; and i know nothing can be said for the bishops more than this , that they were under an anathema , under the curse that sir robert sawyer speaks of , and for fear of that they took this irregular course : but some would say ; better fall into the hands of god than of men ; some would say so , ( i say ) i know not what they would say ; but these being the methods that these lords should have taken , they should have pursued that method , the law should have carved out their relief and remedy for them , but they were for going by a new fancy of their own. my lord , the law continued thus , and was practised so till the . hen. . where the grievance was found , that offences in the intervals of parliament could not be well punished , and then comes the statute that sets up the court of star-chamber , and there men were often brought to judgment and punishment for their sins ; and though very great power was given them , yet they arrogated to themselves a greater ; and therefore that court is abolished by the statute of the th . car. . and what is the reason of abolishing that statute ? because the star-chamber did not keep within their bounds that the law set them , but assumed to themselves a larger power than the law would allow ; and grew very exorbitant and very grievous to the subject : and another reason was , which the statute of th . car. . founded it self upon , because there was nothing that was brought in judgment before that court , but might be relieved and remedied in the oridinary methods of justice in the courts of westminster hall : so that upon those two considerations , because that course was exorbitant , and because all the sins and misdemeanours that were punished there , might be punished in an ordinary way of law in another court , and therefore there was no need of that court , and so it was abolished , and the subject was pretty safe ; if there was a crime committed here , a man might come properly before your lordship into this court , and have it punished . my lord , they find fault with the words in the information , and they say , why are these words put in , seditious , malicious ? if the matter be libellous and seditious we may lawfully say it , and it is no more than the law speaks , it results out of the matter it self ; and , if it be a libellous paper , the law says it is maliciously and seditiously done , and these gentlemen need not quarrel with us , for so are all the informations in all times past , and 't is no more than the vi & armis , which is common form. it may be said , how can the publishing of a libel be said to be done vi & armis ? that is only a supposition of law ; and they may as well object to the conclusion of the information , that it was contra coronam & dignitatem domini regis ; if it be an illegal thing , or a libel , these are necessary consequences , it is no more than the speaking of the law upon the fact. but , my lord , let us a little consider , whether this matter were warrantable , and whether they had any warrant to do what was done ; they pretend it was done upon this account , that the king had set forth a declaration , and had ordered them to read it ; which to excuse themselves from , they make this petition , or this libel , ( call it what you will ) and they use this as the main argument , that they say the king has done illegally , and they tell the king plainly so , that it is illegal ; for they take notice of this declaration , and say , it is illegal ; because it is contrary to the declarations of parliament in , , and . pray , my lord , let us consider a little , whether there be any declaration in parliament that they have given evidence of ; have they read any declaration of the parliament in ? what is a declaration in parliament , but a bill that is passed by the king , lords , and commons ? that we know to be the meaning , and no other ; if it pass the commons it is no declaration in parliament ; nay , if it pass the lords and commons , it is not a declaration in parliament , except it also pass the king ; all these things are nullities , and the law takes no notice of them ; we have it in our books over and over , and no court ought to suffer such evidence to be given . i know these gentlemen are very well acquainted with the authority in fitz-herbert's , title ; parliament , there was an act that was said to be by the king and the lords , but because the commons did not agree to it , it is declared and adjudged to be a nullity , and the court would take no notice of it ; and how can any man call that a declaration in parliament , which is only a vote of the house of commons , or of the lords ? no sure ; that is one of the heads i go upon , it 's not a declaration in parliament , unless it be by act of parliament . indeed , my lord , there is another sort of a declaration in parliament before the lords , as they are a court of judicature , and that is a fair declaration too ; for if any thing comes judicially before the lords , either by writ of error , or by natural appeal from any of the other courts , or by adjournment , and there be any judgment given , that is a declaration in parliament , and may be fairly so called . so likewise there is another judicial declaration , which is , when any thing comes before the lords judicially , upon an impeachment of the commons , and they give judgment upon that impeachment , that is a declaration in parliament : but to say , that there is any other declaration in parliament , is to say more than these gentlemen can make out ; if they will shew me any such i will submit to them , and not speak a word against my lords the bishops , but , if these learned gentlemen cannot shew me any such , then they have not said that was true in this petition , that it was so and so declared in parliament . for let us consider what there is in this case upon this evidence , for that in . is only a vote and an opinion of the house of commons ; and i always understood , and have been told so by some of the gentlemen of the other side , that such a vote signifies nothing : but besides , it seems to be a mistaken address ; for they say in it , that the declaration in . which they address against , was the first declaration of that sort , to suspend laws without act of parliament ; and yet , in the same breath , they do take notice of the king's declaration from breda . but here is a mighty argument used from the king's speech , that because he wished he had such a power , this must be declared in parliament that he had no such power : is the speech of the prince a declaration in parliament ? all the speeches that were made upon the opening of the parliament , will you say , they are declarations in parliament ? then the chancellor , or the keeper's speech , or the lord privy seals , must be a declaration in parliament . whoever speaks the sense of the king , if he does not speak that which is law and right , is questionable for it , and several have been impeached for so doing ; for they look not upon it as the king's speech , except it be according to law : nothing can turn upon the prince but what is legal ; if it be otherwise , it turns upon him that speaks it . i never did hear that a speech made by the chancellor ( and i will appeal to all the lords that hear me in it ) was a declaration in parliament . then , my lord , we come to the business in . which with that in . and that in breda , shews , that this of the king 's is not such a novelty , but has been done often before . in . the king was in distress for money , being intangled in a dutch war , and wanted supply ; he capitulates with his commons , you have heard it read , and , upon the commons address , he asserts it to be his right , and makes his complaint to the lords how the commons had used him ; for when he gives them a fair answer , they reply , and there are conferences with the lords about it ; but at length it all ends in a speech by the king , who comes and tells them of his present necessitie●… , and so he was minded to re●… a little at the instigation of the commons , and he has a good lump of money for it . would this amount to a declaration in parliament ? can my lords the bishop●… fancy or imagine that this is to be imposed upon the king , or upon the court , for a declaration in parliament ? then , last of all , for that in . in this king's time , what is it ? the commons make an address to the king , and complain to his majesty of some of his officers in his army , * that might pretend to have a dispensation , something of that nature , contrary to the test act ; and what is done upon it ? they make their application to the king , and the king answers them , and that is all : but since it is spoken of in the court i would take notice , that it is very well known by the case of godding and hales , the judgment of this court was against the opinion of that address . but what sort of evidence is all this ? would you allow all the addresses of the house of commons to be evidence ? give me leave to say it , my lord , if you suffer these votes , these copies of imperfect bills , these addresses , and applications of one or both houses to the king , to be evidence and declarations in parliament , then what will become of the * bill of exclusion ? shall any body mention that bill of exclusion to be a declaration in parliament ? if so , then there is declaration against declaration , the declaration of the commons against the declaration of the lords . i know not what judgment my lords the bishops may be of now , concerning those things of votes and addresses being declarations in parliament , but i am sure they have spoken against it heretofore ; nay , i am sure , some of them have preached against it . and if my lords the bishops have said , these are declarations in parliament , and they are not declarations in parliament ; and if they accuse the king of having done an illegal thing , because he has done that which has been declared in parliament to be illegal , when it was never so declared , then the consequence is very plain , that they are mistaken sometimes ; and i suppose by this time they believe it . i dare say , it will not be denied me , that the king may , by his prerogative royal , issue forth his proclamation ; it is as essential a prerogative , as it is to give his assent to an act of parliament to make it a law. and it is another principle , which i think cannot be denied , that the king may make constitutions and orders in matters ecclesiastical ; and that these he may make out of parliament , and without the parliament . if the king may do so , and these are his prerogatives , then suppose the king does issue forth his royal proclamation ( and such in effect is this declaration under the great seal ) in a matter ecclesiastical , by virtue of his prerogative royal , and this declaration is read in the council , and published to the world , and then the bishops come and tell the king , sir , you have issued out an illegal declaration , being contrary to what has been declared in parliament ; when there is no declaration in parliament : is not this a diminishing the king's power and prerogative in issuing forth his declaration ? and making constitutions in matters ecclesiastical ? is not this a questioning of his prerogative ? do not my lords the bishops in this case raise a question between the king and the people ? do not they ( as much as in them lyes ) stir up the people to sedition ? for who shall be judg between the king and the bishops ? ( says the king ) i have such a power and prerogative to issue forth my royal proclamation , and to make orders and constitutions in matters ecclesiastical , and that without the parliament , and out of parliament : say my lords the bishops , you have done so , but you have no warrant for it . says the king , every prince has done it , and i have done no more than what is my prerogative to do : but this , say the bishops , is against law. how shall this be tryed ? should not the bishops have had the patience to have waited till a parliament came ? when the king himself tells them , he would have a parliament in november at furthest . l. ch. iust. pray , mr. sollicitor , come close to the business , for it is very late . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i beg your patience ; you have had a great deal of patience with them , pray spare me a little . i am saying , when the king himself tells them , that he would have a parliament in november at furthest , yet they have no patience to stay till november , but make this application to him . is not this raising a question upon the king's prerogative in issuing forth declarations ? and upon the king's power and right in matters ecclesiastical ? and when i have said this , that my lords the bishops have so done ; if they have raised a question upon the right of the king , and the power of the king in matters ecclesiastical , then they have stirred up sedition . that they have so done is pretty plain ; and for the consequence of it , i shall appeal to the case in the cro. . iac. . that is a plain direct authority for me . mr. iust. powel . nay , mr. sollicitor , we all very well know , to deny the king's authority in temporals and spirituals , as by act of parliament , is high treason . mr. sol. gen. i carry it not so far , sir ; we have a gracious prince , and my lords the bishops find it so by this prosecution : but what says that case ? it is printed in books , in noy . in moor . and in mr. just. cro. . says that case , the king may make orders and constitutions in matters ecclesiastical . mr. iust. powel . but how will you apply that case to this in hand , mr. sollicitor ? mr. sol. gen. i will apply it by and by , sir. i would first shew what it is ; there is a convention of the greatest men in the kingdom . mr. iust. powel . indeed , mr. sollicitor , you shoot at rovers . mr. sol. gen. there i●… the lord privy seal , the archbishop of canterbury , and a great many others ; it is the greatest a●…embly we meet with in our books , and all of them are of this opinion , that the king may make orders and constitutions in matters ecclesiastical . my lord , there is another authority , and that is , from the statute eliz. which erected the high commission court , and that statute was not introductory of a new law , but declaratory of the old law ; the king by his proclamation declares his sense to do such and such a thing ; the court , and all persons there , give their judgment and opinion upon that statute , that they looked upon it as the grossest thing , and the soulest affront to the prince , for any man to bring into question that power of the king in matters ecclesiastical ; 't is said to be a very high crime . why then , my lord , what is done in this case ? mr. iust. powel . mr. sollicitor , pray , when you are applying , apply that other part of the case too , which says , that it was a heinous offence , to raise a rumor that the king did intend to grant a general toleration ; and is there any law since that has changed it , mr. sollicitor ? mr. sol. gen. in the main , judgment goes another way ; as for that part , it was personal to the prince that then was , of whom they had scandalously reported , that he intended to do such a thing ; they look'd upon it as a scandal to king iames , that it was a sowing sedition , and stirring up people against the government , and that will come up to our case ; for as some men do it on the right side , others do it on the left ; and whoever he be that endeavours to bring a dislike of the king in the people , that is moving sedition against the prince , but that is personal to the prince himself , and does not go to his successors . now , my lord , i come to that which is very plain from the case of de libellis famosis ; if any person , in any paper , have slandered the government , you are not to examine who is in the right , and who is in the wrong , whether what they said to be done by the government be legal or no ; but whether the party have done such an act. if the king have a power ( for still i keep to that ) to issue forth proclamations to his subjects , and to make orders and constitutions in matters ecclesiastical , if he do issue forth his proclamation , and make an order upon the matters within his power and prerogative ; and if any one would come and bring that power in question , i say , that is sedition , and you are not to examine the legality , or illegality of the order or proclamation ; and , that i think is very plain upon that case , in the fifth report , for it says , if a person does a thing that is libellous , you shall not examine the fact , but the consequence ; whether it tended to stir up sedition against the publick , or to stir up strife between man and man ; in the case of private persons , as if a man should say of a judge , he has taken a bribe , and i will prove it ; this is not to be sent in a letter , but they must take a regular way to prosecute it according to law. if it be so in the case of an inferior magistrate , what must it be in the case of a king , to come to the kings face , and tell him ( as they do here ) that he has acted illegally , doth certainly , sufficiently prove the matter to be libellous . what do they say to king , they say , and admit , that they have an aversness for the declaration , and they tell him from whence that aversness doth proceed ; and yet they insinuate , that they had an inclination to gratify the king , and embrace the dissenters , that were as averse to them , as could be , with due tenderness , when it should be settled by parliament and convocation , pray , what hath their convocation to do in this matter . l. ch. iust. mr. sollicitor general , i will not interrupt you ; but , pray , come to the business before us : shew us that this is in diminution of the kings prerogative , or that the king ever had such a prerogative . mr. sol. gen. i will , my lord ; i am observing what it is they say in this petition — they tell the king it is inconsistent with their honor , prudence , and conscience , to do what he would have them to do ; and if these things be not reflective upon the king and government , i know not what is ; this is not in a way of judicature , possibly it might have been allowable to petition . the king to put it into a course of justice , whereby it may be tryed ; but , alas , there is no such thing in this matter . it is not their desire to put it into any method for tryal , and so it comes in the case de libellis famosis ; for by this way , they make themselves judges , which no man by law is permitted to do . my lords , the bishops have gone out of the way , and all that they have offered does not come home to justify them ; and therefore i take it under favour , that we have made it a good case for the king , we have proved what they have done , and whether this be warrantable or not , is the question , gentlemen , that you are to try . the whole case appears upon record ; the declaration , and petition are set forth , and the order of the king and council . when the verdict is brought in , they may move any thing what they please in arrest of judgment : they have had a great deal of latitude , and taken a great deal of liberty ; but truly , i apprehend , not so very pertinently . but , i hope , we have made a good case of it for the king , and that you , gentlemen , will give us a verdict . mr. iust. holloway . mr. sollicitor , there is one thing i would seign be satisfied in ; you say the bishops have no power to petition the king. mr. soll. gen. not out of parliament , sir. mr. iust. holloway . pray give me leave , sir ; then the king having made such a declaration of a general toleration and liberty of conscience , and afterwards he comes and requires the bishops to disperse this declaration ; this they say , out of a tenderness of conscience , they cannot do , because they apprehend it contrary to law , and contrary to their function : what can they do , if they may not petition ? mr. soll. gen. i 'll tell you what they should have done , sir. if they were commanded to do any thing against their consciences , they should have acquiesced till the meeting of the parliament . [ at which some people in the court hissed . ] mr. attorn . gen. this is very fine , indeed ; i hope the court , and the jury , will take notice of this carriage . mr. soll. gen. my lord , it is one thing for a man to submit to his prince , if the king lay a command upon him that he cannot obey , and another thing to affront him . if the king will impose upon a man what he cannot do , he must acquiesce ; but shall he come and fly in the face of his prince ? shall he say it is illegal ? and that the prince acts against prudence , honor , or conscience ? and throw dirt in the king's face ? sure that is not to be permitted ; that is libelling with a witness . l. ch. iust. truly , mr. sollicitor , i am of opinion that the bishops might petition the king , but this is not the right way of bringing it ; i am not of that mind , that they cannot petition the king out of parliament , but if they may petition , yet they ought to have done it after another manner : for if they may in this reflective way petition the king , i am sure , it will make the government very precarious . mr. iust. powel . mr. sollicitor , it would have been too late to stay for a parliament , for it was to have been distributed by such a time . mr. soll. gen. they might have lain under it , and submitted . mr. iust. powel . no , they would have run into contempt of the king's command , without petitioning the king not to insist upon it ; and if they had petitioned , and not have shewn the reason why they could not obey , it would have been looked upon as a piece of sullenness , and that they would have been blamed for , as much on the other side . mr. serj. baldock . after so long a debate i shall not trouble you long , most things that are to be said have been said , but i shall only say this in short ; i cannot deny , nor shall not , but that the subject has a right to petition , but i shall affirm it also , he has a duty to obey ; and , that in this case , the power of the king to dispense with penal laws in matters ecclesiastical is not a thing that is now in question , nor need we here have had these long debates on both sides : it may be perceived plainly , by the proofs that have been read , that the kings and princes have thought themselves that they had such a power , though , it may be , the parliament thought they had not ; and therefore the declarations of the one , or the other , i shall not meddle with in this case . that power it self which the king has , as king of this realm , in matters rather ecclesiastical and criminal than matters of property , may somewhat appear by what has been read before your lordship ; but all this will be nothing in our case , neither has his majesty now depended so much upon this thing ; the declaration has been read to you ; and what 's there said ? the king there says , that for those reasons he was ready to suspend those laws ; and be they suspended ? yet , my lord , with this too , that he refers it to , and hopes to make it secure by , a parliament : so that there being this , it has not gone , i think , very far ; and , it not having been touch'd here , it is not a point of duty in my lords the bishops , as bishops , that 's here inquired into ; whether they should have medled with this , or no , in this manner , is the question . that the king is supreme over all of us , and has a particular supremacy over them , as supreme ordinary , and governor , and moderator of the church , is very plain ; and , my lord , it is as plain that in such things as concern the church , he has a particular power to command them ; this is not unknown , but very frequent and common in matters ecclesiastical , and matters of state ; it is not here a question now , whether these declarations which they were commanded to take care of getting read , were legal or not legal ; what prudence there was , what honour there was , what conscience there was , for their not reading it , is not the question neither : but the point was , the king as supreme ordinary of his kingdom , to whom the bishops are subject , does in council order ; and what is it he orders ? their sending out and distributing his declaration ; they were concerned in no more than that , and it had been a very petty thing , a small thing , to send out the king's declaration to be read by the clergy : all the clergy were ordered to read it , but my lords the bishops were only commanded to distribute it ; this he might do by virtue of his power ecclesiastical . and if this be not an evil in it self , and if it be not against the word of god , certainly obedience was due from my lords the bishops ; active obedience was due from them to do so much as this ; it was no consent of theirs , it was no approbation of theirs , of what they read , that was required . so that if they had read it , or another had read it , by the king's order , especially if that order be legal , they are bound to do it by virtue of their obedience , and not to examine more . and , my lord , in this petition , here they come to relieve , not only themselves that , were present , ( for i speak to the preamble , as others before me have spoke to the conclusion ) but they do involve the rest of the bishops that were absent ; for it is in behalf of themselves , and their brethren , and all the clergy of that province . now that all these should joyn in the petition , is a thing very uncertain ; how does it construe here , whether they were altogether , and consented to it , or how all their minds could be so fully known , that they would be all involved in the disobedience to this order of the king. then , my lord , what is the thing they are greatly averse to ? there are two things required in the order , the bishops required to distribute the declaration to the inferior clergy ; and the inferior clergy are required to read it . then their averseness must be to distribute it , and the others to read it , and so they will be involved ; none of whom did ever appear to have joyned in it . and then they give reasons for their averseness ; and it is true , reasons might have been given , and good reasons should be given , why they would not do this in duty to his majesty ; more gentle reasons , and other kind of reasons , than those that they have given . l. ch. iust. pray , brother , will you come to the matter before us . mr. serj. baldock . i have almost done , my lord. mr. iust. powel . the information is not for disobedience , brother , but for a libel . mr. serj. baldock . no , sir , it is not for disobedience , but it is for giving reasons for the disobedience in a libellous petition ; and i am going on to that . the declaration is said in the petition to be illegal , which is a charge upon the king , that he has done an illegal act. they say , they cannot in honor , conscience , or prudence do it ; which is a reflection upon the prudence , justice , and honour of the king in commanding them to do such a thing : and this appearing to have been delivered to the king by my lords the bishops ; persons , to whom certainly we all owe a deference , as our spiritual masters , to believe what things they say , as most likely to be true ; and , therefore it having an universal influence upon all the people , i shall leave it here to your lordship , and the jury , whether they ought not to answer for it . mr. recorder . will your lordship please to spare me one word ? l. ch. iust. i hope , we shall have done by and by . mr. recorder . if your lordship don't think fit , i can sit down . l. ch. iust. no , no , go on , sir barth . shore , you 'll say i have spoiled a good speech . mr. recorder . i have no good one to make , my lord , i have but a very few words to say . l. ch. iust. well , go on sir. mr. recorder . that which i would urge , my lord , is only this ; i think , my lord , we have proved one information , and that they have made no answer to it ; for the answer they have made , is but argumentative , and taken either from the persons of the defendants , as peers , or from the form of its being a petition : as peers , it is said , they have a right to petition to , and advise the king ; but that is no excuse at all , for if it contains matter reproachful , or scandalous , it is a libel in them , as well as in any other subject ; and they have no more right to libel the king than his majesties other subjects have ; nor will the priviledge of their peerage exempt them from being punished . and for the form of this paper , as being a petition , there is no more excuse in that neither . for every man has as much right to publish a book , or pamphlet , as they had to present their petition . and as it would be punishable in that man to write a scandalous book , so it would be punishable in them to make a scandalous , and a libellous petition . and the author of iulian the apostate , because he was a clergy man , and a learned man too , had as much right to publish his book , as my lords the bishops had to deliver this libel to the king. and if the city of london were so severely punished , as to lose their charter , for petitioning for the sitting of a parliament , in which there were reflecting words , but more soft . — mr. iust. holloway . pray , good mr. recorder , don't compair the writing of a book to the making of a petition ; for it 's the birth-right of the subject to petition . mr. recorder . my lord , it was as lawful for the city of london to petition for the sitting of a parliament , as it was for my lords the bishops to give reasons for their disobedience to the king's command : and if the matter of the city of londons petition was reckoned to be libellous , in saying that what the king had done in dissolving the parliament , was an obstruction of justice , what other construction can be made of my lords the bishops saying that the king's declaration is illegal ? and if the matter of this petition be of the same nature with that of the city of london , your lordship can make no other judgment of it ; but that it ought to have the same condemnation . mr. iust. powel . mr. recorder , you will as soon bring the two poles together , as make this petition to agree with iohnson's book ; they are no more alike , than the most different things you can name . mr. serj. trinder . my lord , i have but one word . l. ch. iust. how unreasonable is this now , that we must have so many speeches at this time of day ? but we must hear it ; go on brother . mr. serj. trinder . my lord , if your lordship pleases , that which they seem most to insist upon on the other side , and which has not been much spoken to on our side , is , that this power which his majesty has exerted , in setting forth his declaration , was illegal , and their arguments were hypothetical ; if it were illegal , they had not offended ; and they offered at some arguments to prove it illegal : but as to that , my lord , we need not go much further , than a case that is very well known here , which i crave leave to mention , only because the jury , perhaps , have not heard of it ; and that was the case of sir edward hales , where after a long debate , it was resolved , that the king had a power to dispense with penal laws . but , my lord , if i should go higher into our books of law , that which they seem to make so strange of , might easily be made appear , to have been a frequent and constant practice . — l. ch. iust. that is quite out of the case , brother . mr. serj. trinder . i beg your lorships favour , for a word or two ; if your lordship please to consider the power the king has , as supreme ordinary , we say , he has a power to dispense with these statutes , as he is king , and to give ease to his subjects , as supreme ordinary of the whole kingdom , and as having supreme ecclesiastical authority throughout the kingdom . there might be abundance of cases cited for this , if there were need ; the statute of primo eliz. doubtless is in force at this time , and a great many of the statutes that have been made since that time , have express savings of the king's supremacy ; so that the king's power is unquestionable : and if they have come and questioned this power in this manner , by referring themselves to the declarations in parliament , they have done that , which of late days has been always look'd upon as an ill thing , as if the king's authority was under the suffrages of a parliament . but when they come to make out their parliament declarations , there was never a one , unless it be first in richard the seconds time , that can properly be called a parliament declaration ; so that that of the several parliaments is a matter perfectly mistaken ; and if they have mistaken it , it is in the nature of false news , which is a crime , for which the law will punish them . more things might be added , but i consider your lordship has had a great deal of patience already , and much time has been spent , and , therefore i shall conclude , begging your lordships pardon for what i have said . l. ch. iust. i do assure you , if it had not been a case of great concern , i would not have heard you so long : it is a case of very great concern to the king , and the government , on the one side , and to my lords the bishops on the other ; and i have taken all the care i can to observe what has been said on both sides . 't is not to be expected that i should repeat all the speeches , or the particular facts , but i will put the jury in mind of the most material things , as well as my memory will give me leave ; but i have been interrupted by so many long , and learned speeches , and by the length of the evidence which has been brought in , in a very broken , unmethodical way , that i shall not be able to do so well as i would . gentlemen , thus stands the case ; it is an information against my lords the bishops , his grace my lord of canterbury , and the other six noble lords ; and it is for preferring composing , making , and publishing , and causing to be published , a seditious libel ; the way that the information goes is special , and it sets forth , that the king was graciously pleased , by his royal power and prerogative , to set forth a declaration of indulgence for liberty of conscience , in the third year of his reign ; and afterwards upon the . of april , in the fourth year , he comes and makes another declaration ; and afterwards , in may , orders in council that this declaration should be published by my lords the bishops in their several diocesses ; and after this was done , my lords the bishops come and present a petition to the king , in which were contained the words which you have seen . now , gentlemen , the proofs that have been upon this , you 'll see what they are ; the two declarations are proved by the clerks of the council , and they are brought here under the great seal ; a question did arise , whether the prints were the same with the original declarations , and that is proved by hills , or his man , that they were examined , and are the same ; then the order of council was produced by sir iohn nicholas , and has likewise been read to you ; then they come to prove the fact against the bishops , and first they fall to proving their hands ; they begun indeed a great way off , and did not come so close to it as they afterwards did ; for some of their hands they could hardly prove , but my lord archbishop's hand was only proved , and some others , but there might have been some question about that proof ; but afterwards it came to be proved , that my lords the bishops owned their hands , which , if they had produced at first , would have made the cause something shorter than it was . the next question that did arise , was about the publishing of it , whether my lords the bishops had published it , and it was insisted upon , that no body could prove the delivery of it to the king ; it was proved , the king gave it to the council , and my lords the bishops were called in , and there they acknowledged their hands ; but no body could prove how it came to the king's hands . upon which , we were all of opinion , that it was not such a publishing , as was within the information ; and i was going to have directed you to find my lords the bishops not guilty : but it hapned , that being interrupted in my directions , by an honest , worthy , learned gentleman , the kings council took the advantage , and informing the court that they had further evidence for the king , we staid till my lord president came , who told us how the bishops came to him to his office at white-hall , and after they had told him their design , that they had a mind to petition the king , they asked him the method they were to take for it , and desired him to help them to the speech of the king : and he tells them he will acquaint the king with their desire , which he does ; and the king giving leave , he comes down and tells the bishops , that they might go and speak with the king when they would ; and ( says he ) i have given direction that the door shall be opened for you , as soon as you come . with that the two bishops went away , and said , they would go and fetch their other brethren , and so they did bring the other four , but my lord archbishop was not there ; and immediately when they came back , they went up into the chamber , and there a petition was delivered to the king. he cannot speak to that particular petition , because he did not read it , and that is all that he knew of the matter ; only it was all done the same day , and that was before my lords the bishops appeared at the council . gentlemen , after this was proved , then the defendants came to their part ; and these gentlemen that were of councel for my lords let themselves into their defence , by notable learned speeches , by telling you that my lords the bishops are guardians to the church , and great peers of the realm , and were bound in conscience to take care of the church . they have read you a clause of a statute , made in queen eliz. time , by which they say , my lords the bishops were under a curse , if they did not take care of that law. then they shew you some records ; one in richard the seconds time , which they could make little of , by reason their witness could not read it ; but it was in short , a liberty given to the king , to dispense with the statute of provisors . then they shew you some journals of parliament ; first in the year . where the king had granted an indulgence ; and the house of commons declared it was not fit to be done , unless it were by act of parliament . and they read the king's speech , wherein he says , he wish'd he had such a power , and so likewise that in . which is all nothing , but addresses and votes , or orders of the house , or discourses , either the king's speech , or the subjects addresses ; but these are not declarations in parliament that is insisted upon by the councel for the king , that what is a declaration in parliament is a law , and that must be by the king , lords , and commons ; the other is but common discourse , but a vote of the house , or a signification of their opinion , and cannot be said to be a declaration in parliament : then they come to that in . where the commons take notice of something about the souldiers in the army that had not taken the test , and make an address to the king about it ; but in all these things ( as far as i can observe ) nothing can be gathered out of them , one way or other , it is all nothing but discourses . sometimes this dispensing power has been allowed , as in 〈◊〉 . time ; and sometimes it has been denied , and the king did once wave it ; mr. sollicitor tells you the reason ; there was a lump of money in the case : but i wonder indeed to hear it come from him . mr. soll. gen. my lord , i never gave my vote for money , i assure you . l. ch. iust. but those concessions which the king sometimes makes for the good of the people , and sometimes for the profit of the prince himself ; ( but i would not be thought to distinguish between the profit of the prince , and the good of the people , for they are both one ; and what is the profit of the prince is always for the good of the people ; ) but i say , those concessions must not be made law , for that is reserved in the king's breast , to do what he pleases in it at any time . the truth of it is , the dispensing power is out of the case , it is only a word used in the petition ; but truly i will not take upon me to give my opinion in the question , to determine that now , for it is not before me : the only question before me is , and so it is before you , gentlemen , it being a question of fact , whether here be a certain proof of a publication ? and then the next question is a question of law indeed , whether if there be a publication proved , it be a libel ? gentlemen , upon the point of the publication , i have summed up all the evidence to you ; and if you believe , that the petition which these lords presented to the king was this petition , truly , i think , that is a publication sufficient ; if you do not believe it was this petition , then my lords the bishops are not guilty of what is laid to their charge in this information , and consequently there needs no inquiry whether they are guilty of a libel : but if you do believe , that this was the petition they presented to the king , then we must come to inquire whether this be a libel . now , gentlemen , any thing that shall disturb the government , or make mischief and a stir among the people , is certainly within the case of libellis famosis ; and i must in short give you my opinion , i do take it to be a libel . now , this being a point of law , if my brothers have any thing to say to it , i suppose they will deliver their opinions . mr. iust. holloway . look you , gentlemen , it is not usual for any person to say any thing after the chief justice has summed up the evidence , it is not according to the course of the court ; but this is a case of an extraordinary nature , and there being a point of law in it , it is fit every body should deliver their own opinion : the question is , whether this petition of my lords the bishops be a libel , or no ; gentlemen , the end and intention of every action is to be considered , and likewise , in this case , we are to consider the nature of the offence that these noble persons are charged with ; it is for delivering a petition , which , according as they have made their defence , was with all the humility and decency that could be : so that if there was ill intent , and they were not ( as it is nor can be pretended they were ) men of evil lives , or the like , to deliver a petition cannot be a fault , it being the right of every subject to petition : if you are satisfied there was an ill intention of sedition , or the like , you ought to find them guilty ; but if there be nothing in the case that you find , but only that they did deliver a petition to save themselves harmless , and to free themselves from blame , by shewing the reason of their disobedience to the king's command , which they apprehended to be a grievance to them , and which they could not in conscience give obedience to ; i cannot think it is a libel : it is left to you , gentlemen , but that is my opinion . l. oh. iust. look you , by the way , brother , i did not ask you to sum up the evidence , ( for that is not usual ) but only to deliver your opinion , whether it be a libel , or no. mr. iust. powel . truly , i cannot see , for my part , any thing of sedition , or any other crime , fixed upon these reverend fathers , my lords the bishops . for , gentlemen , to make it a libel it must be false , it must be malicious , and it must tend to sedition ; as to the falshood , i see nothing that is offered by the king's councel , nor any thing as to the malice : it was preferred with all the humility and decency that became the king's subjects to approach their prince with . now , gentlemen , the matter of it is before you ; you are to consider of it , and it is worth your consideration , they tell his majesty , it is not out of aversness to pay all due obedience to the king , nor out of a want of tenderness to their dissenting fellow subjects , that made them not perform the command imposed upon them ; but they say , that because they do conceive , that the thing that was commanded them was against the law of the land , therefore they do desire his majesty , that he would be pleased to forbear to insist upon it , that they should perfor●…●…hat command which they take to be illegal . gentlemen , we must consider what they say is illegall in it ; they say , they apprehend the declaration is illegal , because it is founded upon a dispensing power , which the king claims , to dispense with the laws concerning ecclesiastical affairs . gentlemen , i do not remember in any case in all our law , and i have taken some pains upon this occasion to look into it , that there is any such power in the king , and the case must turn upon that , in short ; if there be no such dispensing power in the king , then that can be no libel which they presented to the king , which says , that the declaration , being founded upon such a pretended power , is illegal . now , gentlemen , this is a dispensation with a witness , it amounts to an abrogation and utter repeal of all the laws ; for i can see no difference , nor know of none i●… law , between the king's power to dispense with laws ecclesiastical , and his power to dispense with any other laws whatsoever : if this be once allowed of , there will need no parliament , all the legislature will be in the king , which is a thing worth considering , and i leave the issue to god and your consciences . mr. iust. allybone . the single question that falls to my share , is , to give my sense of this petition , whether it shall be in construction of law a libel in it self , or a thing of great innocence ; i shall endeavour to express my self in as plain terms as i can , and as much as i can , by way of proposition . and , i think , in the first place , that no man can take upon him to write against the actual exercise of the government , unless he have leave from the government , but he makes a libel , be what he writes true or false ; for if once we come to impeach the government by way of argument , 't is the argument that makes it the government , or not the government : so that i lay down that in the first place , that the government ought not to be impeached by argument , nor the exercise of the government shaken by argument ; because i can manage a proposition in it self doubtful , with a better pen than another man : this , say i , is a libel . then i lay down this for my next position , that no private man can take upon him to write concerning the government at all ; for what has any private man to do with the government , if his interest be not stirred or shaken ? it is the business of the government to manage matters relating to the government ; it is the business of subjects to mind only their own properties and interest : if my interest is not shaken , what have i to do with matters of government ? they are not within my sphere : if the government does come to shake my particular interest , the law is open for me , and i may redress my self by law : and when i intrude my self into other mens business , that does not concern my particular interest , i am a libeller . these i have laid down for plain propositions ; now then let us consider further , whether if i will take upon me to contradict the government , any specious pretence that i shall put upon it shall dress it up into another form , and give it a better denomination ; and truly i think it will not , i think 't is the worse , because it comes in a better dress ; for by that rule , every man that can put on a good vizard , may be as mischievous as he will to the government at the bottom ; so that whether it be in the form of a supplication , or an address , or a petition , if it be what it ought not to be , let us call it by its true name , and give it its right denomination , it is a libel . then , gentlemen , consider what this petition is ; this is a petition relating to something that was done and ordered by the government . whether the reasons of the petition be true or false , i will not examine that now , nor will i examine the prerogative of the crown , but only take notice that this relates to the act of the government : the government here has published such a declaration as this , that has been read , relating to matters of government ; and shall , or ought , any body to come and impeach that as illegal , which the government has done ? truly , in my opinion , i do not think he should , or ought ; for by this rule may every act of the government be shaken , when there is not a parliament de facto sitting . i do agree , that every man may petition the government , or the king , in a matter that relates to his own private i●…erest ; but to meddle with a matter that relates to the government , i do not think my lords the bishops had any power to do more than any others : when the house of lords and commons are in being , it is a proper way of applying to the king , there is all the openness in the world , for those that are members of parliament , to make what addresses they please to the government , for the rectifying , altering , regulating , and making of what law they please ; but if every private man shall come and interpose his advice , i think , there can never be an end of advising the government ; i think , there was as an instance of this in king iames's time , when by a solemn resolution it was declared to be high misdemeanour , and next to treason , to petition the king to put the penal laws in execution . mr. iust. powel . brother , i think , you do mistake a little . mr. iust. allybone . brother , i dare rely upon it , that i am right ; it was so declared , by all the judges . mr. soll. gen. the puritans presented a petition to that purpose , and in it they said , if it would not be granted , they would come with a great number . mr. iust. powel . ay , there it is . mr. iust. allybone . i tell you , mr. sollicitor , the resolution of the judges is , that such a petition is next door to treason , a very great misdemeanour . mr. iust. powel . they accompanying it with threats of the peoples being discontented . mr. iust. allybone . as i remember , it is in the second part of the folio , or , where the resolution of the judges is , that to frame a petition to the king , to put the penal laws in execution , is next door to treason ; for ( say they ) no man ought to intermeddle with matters of government without leave of the government . mr. serj. pemberton . that was a petition against the penal laws . mr. iust. allybone . then i am quite mistaken indeed , in case it be so . mr. serj. trinder . that is not material at all , which it was . mr. pollixfen . they there threatned , unless their request were granted , several thousands of the king's subjects would be discontented . mr. iust. powel . that is the reason of that judgment , i affirm it . mr. iust. allybone . but then i 'll tell you , brother , again , what is said in that case that you hinted at , and put mr. sollicitor in mind of ; for any man to raise a report that the king will , or will not , permit a toleration , if either of these be disagreeable to the people , whether he may , or may not , it is against law ; for we are not to measure things from any truth they have in themselves , but from that aspect they have upon the government ; for there may be every tittle of a libel true , and yet it may be a libel still : so that i put no great stress upon that objection , that the matter of it is not false ; and , for sedition , it is that which every libel carries in it self ; and as every trespass implies vi & armis , so every libel against the government carries in it sedition , and all the other epithets that are in the information ; this is my opinion as to the law in general . i will not debate the prerogatives of the king , nor the priviledges of the subject ; but as this fact is , i think , these venerable bishops did meddle with that which did not belong to them ; they took upon them , in a petitionary way , to contradict the actual exercise of the government , which , i think , no private , particular persons , or single body , may do . l. ch. iust. gentlemen of the jury , have you a mind to drink before you go ? iury. yes , my lord , if you please . [ wine was sent for , for the iury. ] iury-man . my lord , we humbly pray , that your lordship would be pleased to let us have the papers that have been given in evidence . l. ch. iust. what is that you would have , sir ? mr. soll. gen. he desires this , my lord , that you would be pleased to direct that the jury may have the use of such writings , and statute books , as may be necessary for them to make use of . l. ch. iust. the statute book they shall have . mr. soll. gen. but they can have no papers , but what are under seal . mr. serj. levinz . they may have them by consent , and they may have a copy of the information . l. ch. iust. they shall have a copy of the information , and the declarations under seal . mr. pollixfen . if they have those , and the l●…bel , ( as they call it ) they will not need a copy of the information . m. attorn . gen. my lord , we pray that your lordship would be pleased to ascertain what it is they shall have . l. ch. iust. they shall have a copy of the information , the libel , and the declarations under the great seal . mr. soll. gen. but not the votes of the house of commons , nor the journals , for they are not evidence . l. ch. iust. no , i don't intend they shall . sir rob. sawyer . my lord , we pray they may have the whole petition . mr. iust. holloway . that is , with the direction , and prayer , you mean. mr. attorn . gen. yes , with all our hearts . [ then the court arose , and the iury went together to consider of their verdict , and stayed together all night , without fire or candle . ] on saturday the th . day of june , anno dom. . about ten of the clock in the morning , the archbishop , and the rest of the bishops , came again into the court , and immediately after the iury were brought to the bar. sir sam. astry . cryer , take the appearance of the jury . sir roger langley . sir rog. langley . here. cryer . vous avez , &c. [ and so all the rest were called , and answered . ] then proclamation for silence was made . sir. sam. astry . gentlemen , are you agreed on your verdict ? iury. yes . sir sam. astry . who shall say for you ? iury. foreman . sir sam. astry . do you find the defendants , or any of them , guilty of the misdemeanour whereof they are impeached , or not guilty ? foreman . not guilty . sir sam. astry . then hearken to your verdict , as the court hath recorded it — you say , the defendants , and every of them , are not guilty of the misdemeanour whereof they are impeached ; and so you say all ? iury. yes . [ at which there were several great shouts in the court , and throughout the hall. ] mr. sollicitor general , taking notice of some persons in court that shouted , moved very earnestly that they might be committed ; whereupon a gentleman of grays inn was laid hold on , but was soon after discharged . and after the shouting was over , the lord chief iustice reproving the gentleman , said , l. ch. iust. sir , i am as glad as you can be , that my lords the bishops are acquitted ; but your manner of rejoycing here in court is indecent , you might rejoyce in your chamber , or elsewhere , and not here . [ then speaking to mr. attorney , he said , ] have you any thing more to say to my lords the bishops , mr. attorney ? mr. attorn . gen. no , my lord. [ then the court arose , and the bishops went away . ] finis . advertisement . there will be shortly published poems on several occasions . by charles cotton , esq printed for t. basset , w. hensman , and t. fox . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e here the lord chief justice speaking aside said . l. c. just. i must not suffer this , they intend to dispute the king's power of suspending laws . mr. just. powel . my lord , they must necessarily fall upon that point ; for if the king hath no such power , ( as clearly 〈◊〉 hath not in my iudgment ) the natural consequence will be , that this petition is no diminution of the king 's regal power , and so not seditious or libellous . l. c. just. brother , i know you are full of that doctrine ; but however , my lords the bishops shall have no occasion to say , that i deny to hear their counsel . brother , you shall have your will for once , i will hear them , let them talk till they are weary . mr. just. powel . i desire no greater liberty to be granted them than what in iustice the court ought to grant , that is , to hear them in defence of their clients . * here mr. iust. powel speaking to the lord chief iustice , mr. i. pow. my lord , this is wide , mr. sollicitor would impose upon us ; let him make out if he can , that the king has , such a power , and answer the objections made by the defendants councel . l. ch. iust. brother , impose upon us ? he shall not impose upon me , i know not what he may upon you ; for my part , i do not believe one word he say●… . * here there was a great hissing . scandalum magnatum, or, the great trial at chelmnesford assizes held march , for the county of essex, betwixt henry, bishop of london, plaintiff, and edm. hickeringill rector of the rectory of all-saints in colchester, defendant, faithfully related : together with the nature of the writ call'd supplicavit ... granted against mr. hickeringill ... as also the articles sworn against him, by six practors of doctors-common ... published to prevent false reports. hickeringill, edmund, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing h estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) scandalum magnatum, or, the great trial at chelmnesford assizes held march , for the county of essex, betwixt henry, bishop of london, plaintiff, and edm. hickeringill rector of the rectory of all-saints in colchester, defendant, faithfully related : together with the nature of the writ call'd supplicavit ... granted against mr. hickeringill ... as also the articles sworn against him, by six practors of doctors-common ... published to prevent false reports. hickeringill, edmund, - . p. printed for e. smith ... london: . attributed by wing to edmund hickeringill. signed on p. by edm. hickeringill. numerous errors in paging. imperfect: pages stained with loss of print. reproduction of original in the union theolgical seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng hickeringill, edmund, - . compton, henry, - . trials (offenses against the person) great britain -- politics and government -- - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion scandalum magnatum : or the great trial at chelmnesford assizes , held march , for the county of essex , betwixt henry bishop of london , plantiff , and edm. hickeringill rector of the rectory of all-saints in colchester , defendant , faithfully related . together with the nature of the writ call'd supplicavit , seldom granted against any in these days , more seldom granted against any but common-rogues , and common-barreters , and common-villains ; yet granted against mr. hickeringill : who was thereupon bound to the good-behaviour , at the court of king's-bench westminster , octab. pur. xxxiv . r. r. as also the articles sworn against him , by six proctors of doctors-commons ; the reverend proctors names are like-wise ( according to the record in the crown-office ) particulariz'd . with large observations and reflections upon the whole . published to prevent false reports . london , printed for e. smith at the elephant and castle in cornhil , . the introduction was there ever more need than now ( to prevent false reports ) when every coffee-house table ( instead of a better carpet ) is cover'd and pester'd with false news ? false rumours and news ( the epidemical plague ) that our ancestors were so careful to prevent , that ( as the laws oracle , cook. cap. . institut . . tells us , that ) the law before the conquest was , that the author and spreader of false rumours amongst the people had his tongue cut out , if he redeemed it not by the estimation of his head. int. leg. alveredi , cap. . if this law had been reviv'd , thompson , heraclitus and the observator had much better be tongue-ty'd . for tho wise-men and good-men ( in a just scruple of conscience ) scorn to read such nauseous ribaldry , in reverence to that of the wise-man ; ( prov. . . ) a wicked doer giveth heed to false lips ; and a lyer giveth ear to a naughty tongue ; knowing that the resettor is as bad as the thief , and that the ear that loves to hear ( is as bad as the tongue that loves to speak ) false news , and equally guilty ; and he that loveth , ( as well ) as he that maketh a lye , is rank'd amongst dogs , and sorcerers , and whoremongers , and murtherers and idolaters . ( rev. . . ) yet the depraved nature of man is ( novitatis avida ) greedy of hearing tales from the very cradle ; and many englishmen now , ( like the athenians , acts . . ) spend their time in nothing else , but either to tell or to hear some new-thing . the lydians punish'd these false news-mongers with death , as if a man's reputation was as dear to him as his life , and the assassinate of a man's good name , was accounted a murderer . the grecians and the french have but one name or word to signify the devil and ( his son ) the slanderer ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , diable , or devil ; who was a murtherer from the beginning ; ( that is ) a lyer , and the father of lyes : and to delight in hearing or reading false and scandalous news , is an accessory , ( which in murder and all assassinations ) is equally punish'd and equally guilty with the principal . prudent men ( tho' ) and men of courage ( like a lyon , or a right english mastiff ) stalk and walk on , when little currs bark at them , answering their yelping , only with contempt : convicia , si irascaris , tua divulgas , spreta exolescunt , saith tacitus ; if you seek to revenge slanders , you proclaim them as your own ; but if you despise them , they vanish of themselves . there are but few bishops like arch-bishop cranmer , who was so much revil'd , that he might have made work enough for the lawyers , if he would have ply'd their courts with actions , upon the statute of scandal . magnat . ●ut he chose rather to win men with his goodness , not rendring evil for evil , ●●t ( so usually ) good for evil , that it became a proverb in those days , do my lord of canterbury a displeasure , and you have him your friend ever after ; that 's more christian-like , and bishop-like , than if men had cause to say , do my lord of _____ a displeasure , and you have him your enemy ever after . sure the world is near its end , and drawing its last breath , charity is so cold now a days , old and cold , ( god knows ! ) as for example , and woful experience , ecce signum ! the pressures that this defendant has undergone since he writ the naked truth , ( above a year ago ) are almost insupportable , and enough to make his back crack , at least , enough to fright men from writing or speaking any more naked-truths : it was always so ; the great prophet of old made the same complaint , to small purpose ( god wot ) amongst some men ; ( isa . . , . ) judgment is turned away backward , and justice standeth afar off ; for truth is fallen in the street , and equity cannot enter . yea , truth faileth , and he that departeth from iniquity maketh himself a prey ; and the lord saw it , and it displeased him that there was no judgment . how has this defendant been pester'd within this twelve months ? four and twenty great heads of barretry preferr'd against him in the crown-office , about fifty witnesses subpoena'd to prove them , yet , scarce ten of them sworn , and some of them that were subpoena'd , profest before they were subpoena'd that they knew nothing of the matter , and yet subpoena'd . what ? run men down with a noise ? is that such policy ? or , is it piety ? and when the defendant's innocence appear'd , and a verdict to that purpose by the worthy jury ; yet , afterwards how was he visited and vex'd in the ecclesiastical-court of arches , ( henry bishop of london promoter there against him ) and for some of the same barretry too , of which he had been honourably acquitted ? and when the danger appear'd of prosecuting him in that ecclesiastical-court for barretry ( against the statutes of praemunire and provisors ) though witnesses were sworn to them , yet it was upon second thoughts adjudg'd unsafe to insist upon them ; and five of the articles were laid aside ( wherewith they had long made a loud noise ) and only five clandestine marriages insisted upon , or marriages without banes ( first published ) in time of divine-service , ( and how can that be where there is no divine-service ) but the old rule , necessitas vincit legem , would not pass currant against a law of man , though it prov'd a good dispensation to holy david against a law of god : but , in all haste suspended and silenc'd he must be , ( i do not know when ! ) whether the ecclesiastical court have wit in their anger , and will not do all the harm they can ; or , whether they think there is more in matrimony than a matter of money ; or , whether they think it hard to silence a minister from preaching the gospel , though the register's had not the nine or ten shillings ( as formerly ) from the defendant for a blanck-licence , whilst scarce a man in an age is silenc'd for drunkenness , ignorance , laziness , fornication , or debauchery ; or , whether they resolve to be merciful in conclusion , or , ( if that be not so probable ) whether they suspend the execution of the suspension , that the longer the blow is a heaving it may fall the heavier , i cannot tell ; but they . have found the defendant work enough this twelve-month last past , if he had had no other work , but to fence and ward off the blows made at him : then six proctors ( they ) swear against him articles in the king's-bench , and procure the writ of supplicavit against him , a writ seldom granted against any in these days , ( as we are told by the compleat sollicitor , p. , . ) he says , he remembers that about eight years ago , ( in the days of usurpation , for his book was printed anno. dom. . ) a troublesome malicious priest sued one ( namely a supplicavit ) against some of his neighbours , but he had not heard of any since ; and the parties craving it should take their corporal oath that it is not desired for any malice , hatred , or envy to the party ( surely if the said six proctors swore it , they swore it freely , heartily and clearly ! ) besides , tho 't is a writ rarely granted , yet , when it is granted it is ( more ) rarely granted against any but common rogues , and villains , common barretors , and man-catchers ; is there greater indignity than to be crucified amongst thieves and rogues ? it has been the lot of his betters , ( tho ) the defendant offered an affidavit in his behalf , made before judg dolben , by three worthy citizens , and desired ( with all humility ) that as the bench had heard of one side affidavits against him , that they would please to leave one ear open , to hear some affidavits for him , and some pleas in his defence : intending to insist upon the statute of edw. . . which if it be in force , then the ecclesiastical courts sit not legally , nor can they be called by names bad enough ; and if that statute be not in force , then why did the lord chief justice pemberton insist upon it so lately at the king's-bench bar , and also mr. rotherham , for their client mr. weald of much-waltham in essex , about the time that the last parliament sate at westminster , telling the lord chief justice scroggs , that he would not urge it warmly ( or words to the like effect ) because he perceiv'd his lordship was not prepar'd at that time to give an answer to that statute ; or words to the like effect : a moot-case belike then , and a hard case to bind a man to the good-behaviour , or threaten him with a jaile , when not wiser in the construction of the force of a statute than the lord chief justice . but nothing would be admitted to be pleaded in the defendants defence , but utrum horum ( that is not false latin , whatsoever quisquis is . ) sad choice ( alas ! ) bail , or a jail : there is no fence against a flail . they that will hear but of one ear here , shall be made to hear on both ears one day ( the day of judgment . ) and tho mr. shepherd ( in his office of a justice of the peace , pag. . ) says , that in taking a recognizance upon a supplicavit , the ordinary sum is ten or twenty pounds ( and difficultly enough ( too ) to be procured by a poor rogue , tho a great rogue ) yet , since the time and sum is arbitrary and in the breast of the justices , no less than a hundred pounds must mr. hickeringill be bound in for affronting the men of doctors-commons , ( if the proctors swore through-stitch ) nay , one of the bench stood stifly for pounds , ( that the principal should recognize , but ( in that ) he was over-ruled ) and four sureties in l. apiece ; whereas a poor common-rogue could hardly have procur'd two manucaptors : ay , ay ; he that will have honour must sometimes pay for his ambition . but , as if all these troubles were too little for the defendant ( besides the weekly affronts ) by the weekly news-mongers in their tantivy-pamphlets , ( not to mention those familiar little friendly courtships , and caresses , of villain , rogue , colchester-hick — the great scribler of the nation : daring nat. thompson reports him to be convict of perjury , tho nat. hides his viler head for the same , and dare not give an appearance for himself and his consort to mr. godfrey woodward attorney , who has long been prepar'd for him , if he could come at him , for villifying and aspersing such a man as mr. hickeringill with so pernicious and false a slander , all the kingdom over . ) but these are small matters , loss of reputation , and to be called and accounted a common rogue , common barretor , common villain ; a small matter . oh! but in the neck of all , comes me , ( decima unda ) the tenth wave , an action of l. thick , brought by a great bishop too , of great interest , great power , great friends , great parts , great learning , and great all over ; against a poor priest , or younger brother , a minorite , to reform him , ( if any body could tell how ) and make him better : nay , it will be dangerous ( this whole long year ) for mr. hickeringill to say , as did the emperour , at a general council , ( when at the first setting out and opening thereof , the good fathers were gravell'd , and at a loss , where ( first ) to begin to 'mend , the ecclesiastical frame being so horribly out of frame , â minoritis , cries one of the great ones very politickly : no quoth the emperour , ) rather a majoritis ; let us first begin to 'mend the great ones . the naked truth , with ease , we tear ; not , such as vizor-masques do wear ; for vizors sconce and skreen men here ; but will not always last , i fear . this fam'd trial came on march , . at the nisi prius bar , before the lord chief justice , sir francis pemberton ; the jury , by the sheriff of the county of essex , were thus return'd ; viz. essex ss . nomina jur. inter henr. epis . lond. qui tam , &c. quer. et edmond . hickeringill , cler. defend . andreas jenner de dunmow magnâ , bar. ricardus everard de waltham magnâ , bar. edwardus smith de thoydonmount , bar. willielmus appleton de shenfield , bar. johannes bramston de roxwell , miles balnei . marcus guyon de coggeshall magnâ , miles . johannes marshal , miles . willielmus maynard de waltham stow , ar. willielmus glascock de farnham , ar. jacobus milbourn de dunmow magnâ , ar. alexander prescot de mountnessing , ar. willielmus pert de eâd. ar. samuel hare de leigh , ar. anthonius abdey de kelvedon , ar. ricardus ballet de hatfield broad-oak , ar. johannes meade de wenden , ar. johannes tendring de baddow magnâ , ar. willielmus petre de stanford rivers , ar. henricus paschal de baddow magnâ , ar. henricus humfreys de westhamingfield , ar. ricardus how de ingate-stone , ar. ricardus stanes de altâ ongar , ar. aurelius piercey wiseman de wimbish , ar. edwardus taverner de canfield , ar. none of the jury were challenged by either side ; most of the gentlemen ( first named in the pannel ) appear'd and serv'd ; being sworn , a little councel tremblingly made a shift to read the heads of the declaration , viz. the declaration in english ( faithfully translated out of the lawyers latin ) was to this effect , viz. trinity term , xxxiii . r. r. carol. . henry bishop of london , one of the prelates of this realm of england , as well for our soveraign lord the king , as for himself , complaineth of edmond hickeringill clerk , in the custody of the marshal of the marshalsea ; for that whereas in the statute made in the parliament of king richard the second after the conquest , at glocester , in the second year of his raign , held , amongst other things , it is enacted and strictly charged under great pain , that none should be so bold as to devise , speak or relate of the prelates , dukes , earls , barons , and other nobles and great men of the realm of england , nor of the chancellor , treasurer or clerk of the privy seal , steward of the king's house , justice of the one bench or other , nor of any great officers of the said realm , any false news , lyes , or any such falsities , whereof any scandal or discord within the said realm may arise . and whosoever this should do , should incur the penalty otherwise thereof ordained , by the statute of westminster the first , as in the said statute more fully it is contained . yet the said edmond hickeringill the statute aforesaid not regarding , nor the penalty of the said statute any ways fearing , but craftily designing the good name , state , credit , dignity and honour of the said bishop to hurt and blacken , and him the said bishop into great displeasure , distrust and discredit of our said lord the king that now is , and of the great men , and great officers of this realm of england , and also of divers worthy persons , subjects of our said lord the king that now is , to bring ; the fourth day of april , in the three and thirtieth year of the raign of our said lord the king , at chelmnesford in the county of essex , divers false news and horrible lyes of the said henry , then and yet being bishop of london , and one of the prelates of this realm of england , in the presence and hearing of divers of the subjects of our said lord the king , falsly , maliciously , and scandalously devised , spoke , related , published and proclaimed in these english words following , viz. the lord bishop of london ( meaning himthe said lord bishop of london ) is a bold daring impudent man , for sending some heads in divinity to all his clergy in those parts ( meaning the clergy within the diocess of london in those parts ) which are contrary to law ( meaning the laws of the realm ) and of his further malice , the said edmond afterwards , to wit , the said fourth day of april in the three and thirtieth year abovesaid , at chelmnesford in the said county of essex , scandalously , and maliciously , and further to defame and scandalize the said bishop likewise , devised , spoke , related , published and proclamed of the said henry , then and yet bishop of london , upon a discourse of the said bishop then and there had , these other false news and horrible lies , in these english words following , that is to say , his lordship ( meaning the said henry lord bishop of london ) is very ignorant . and the said edmond further craftily designing not only the good name , state , credit , dignity and honour of the said bishop to hurt and blacken , and him the said bishop into further great displeasure , distrust and discredit ●our said soveraign lord the king that now is , and of the great men , and ●●eat officers of this kingdom of england , and of divers other worthy subjects of our said lord the king , to bring ; but also to cause him to endure the pain and peril of the laws and statutes of this realm , against traitors and such malefactors , made afterwards , to wit the said fourth day of april , in the said three and thirtieth year of the raign of our said soveraign lord the king that now is , at chelmnesford aforesaid , in the said county , divers other false news and horrible lyes of the said henry , then and yet bishop of london , and one of the prelates of this realm , in the presence and hearing of divers of the king's subjects , scandalously , falsly , and maliciously devised , spoke , related , published and declared in these english words following , viz. i ( meaning him the said edmond hickeringill ) can prove his lordship ( meaning the said henry lord bishop of london ) to be concerned in the damnable plot , ( meaning the popish plot to destroy the king , and subvert the government of this realm ) late discovered . by means of which said several false news and horrible lyes , the said bishop is not only hurt and scandalized in his reputation , honour and dignity , and the said bishop hath lost the favour , good opinion and esteem which our said soveraign lord the king , and other great men , and prelates of this realm afore towards him did bear , and divers rumors and scandals between divers of the nobles of this realm , and great men , and other the king's subjects upon the occasion aforesaid , within this realm are risen and spread abroad , and great scandals and discords by reason of the premises , between the said bishop and others of this realm are risen , and daily more and more are likely to arise , to the great disturbance of the peace and tranquillity of the realm , to the contempt of our said lord the king , and great scandal of the said bishop , and against the form of the said statute of richard the second , to the bishop's damage l. and therefore he brings this suit. issue — non cul — this trial ( of so great expectation ) came on about nine a clock in the morning , wednesday the th of march , . to prove the declaration only one single witness was produced for the plantiff , namely , one samuel harris , clerk. witnesses sworn on the behalf of the defendant , were , the right honourable edward earl of lincoln , mr. benjamin edgar , mr. ambrose flanner , robert potter , henry bull , christopher hill , and daniel howlet ; all ( except that noble earl ) parishioners of the parish of st. buttolph's in colchester , and present when the words were ( pretended to be ) spoken . actions for words ought to be precisely and punctually prov'd , and all the words together without addition or diminution ; otherwise , as the defendant ( who pleaded his own cause ) told the court , the sense must differ , except they be taken together , with the antecedent and subsequent discourse , in sensu conjuncto , not diviso ; jointly and not severally : adding , that he had a thousand times said , that , there is no god ; and yet that saying ( that looks so scandalously , atheistically and blasphemously , taken disjointed and severally from the foregoing words ) are really innocent and harmless , and have been spoken a thousand times by every man , that has a thousand times read or repeated psal . . . the fool hath said in his heart , there is no god. so also , in infinite instances , as to say , it is not lawful to love god , nor to 〈◊〉 our neighbour dissemblingly , or hypocritically ; take away the last words , and 〈◊〉 looks scandalously and most prophanely ; but taken altogether , no harm all , but good and true , and like that of the apostle , — let love be without dissimulation . the said harris ( witness for the plantiff ) had got the words pretty well by heart , but yet did not swear them so roundly off , as was expected . for , ( as to the first words , namely , the lord bishop of london is a bold daring impudent man , for sending some heads of divinity to all his clergy in these parts : ) he swore them thus , — namely , the lord bishop of london is a bold daring impudent man , for sending a printed paper , wherein were some heads of divinity which were contrary to law. but the defendant again examining , and bidding him repeat the words , he said the words were — the lord bishop of london is a bold daring impudent man , for sending some heads of divinity in a printed letter which is contrary to law. whereupon the defendant taking notice and advantage from the difference of the expressions and words , the judg bid that same harris to repeat the words once more as he would bide by it . whereupon , harris sware that the words were these — the lord bishop of london is a bold daring impudent man , for sending some heads of divinity in a paper contrary to law. there the mercury was fixt after all its several shapes . the words in the second count , he swore roundly off without any haesitation ; but the words in the third count , he did not swear as they were laid in the declaration , and yet without doubt the declaration was made according to his single information ; but it pleased god , he did not swear them off so roundly ; for instead of these words — i can prove his lordship to be concerned in the damnable plot ( meaning ) the popish plot ; he swore these words — i can prove his lordship to be concerned in the horrid plot against my righteous name and person ; and that the words were spoken by the defendant without any intervenient question , all in one continued discourse . yet the counsel would gladly have insinuated to the gentlemen that were sworn , that the words should not be taken together , but to make a pause at horrid plot , as if the next words , against my righteous name , did not sufficiently give the meaning , without any subintelligitur ; for who can imagine in sober sense that a man means john a stiles , when he expresly says john a nokes ? or , who can imagine that a man means a popish-plot , when he expresly says , a horrid plot against my righteous name ? &c. and he and all the defendants witnesses argeed in one thing , namely , that not any colloquium , discourse or mention was made of any popish plot , during the defendants stay in the company , that th of april , . being easter-monday , at the said parish-meeting for the election of officers for the said parish of st. buttolph's in colchester , as their yearly custom was , on every easter-monday . the said harris his testimony was confronted with six honest witnesses , substantial men , who had no design upon the defendant's benefice of st. buttolphs , ( an appurtenance to his rectory of all-saints , time out of mind of man to the contrary ) but the said harris could not deny , but he had a pretension thereunto by a sequestration granted to him by the plantiff . and first mr. edgar told the judg , and those that were sworn , that he was present all the time from first to last , from the said harris his coming into the room at the said parish-meeting where harris found the defendant ; and gave good attention to all the discourse that past betwixt the defendant and the said harris all the while they were together , which was not long , the defendant soon leaving the room and departing . he was order'd to declare the whole discourse , which he did as followeth ; namely , that when the said harris came into the said parish-meeting , the fourth of april last , the defendant ask'd the said harris what business he had there , or what he had to do there in his parish ? to whom harris reply'd , that he had a sequestration of the said benefice of st. buttolphs from the lord bishop of london . to whom the defendant reply'd , saying , the lord bishop is not infallible , ( and that the pope is not infallible ; ) for instance ( continued the defendant . ) the lord bishop of london sent a printed letter to every one of the clergy in these parts , wherein he recommended to them the observation of the canons of forty , which canons are disanulled by law ; which law if the bishop did not know , it was his ignorance ; but if he did know it , it was insolence . besides , the defendant added these words , the bishop of london has a prejudice against me , for i can prove that he was concerned in the horrid plot against my righteous name and reputation . in short , all the defendants witnesses agreed with mr. edgar's testimony , and all of them swore positively , that they were present during the whole discourse betwixt the said harris and the defendant , that they all gave attention thereunto , and that they did hear and take good notice of the whole discourse that past at that time betwixt the defendant and the said harris , and that the defendant during the whole discourse , mention'd not these words — the lord bishop of london is a bold daring impudent man ; nor any mention made of any heads of divinity , nor these words , his lordship is very ignorant ; nor the least mention made of a popish plot by any in the room , nor any colloquium of the popish plot ( laid ) in the declaration ; but all agreed that the defendant in a continued discourse , said — i can prove his lordship to be concern'd in the horrid plot against my righteous name and reputation ; but harris said , against my righteous name and person . and yet the said harris confessed , that after the defendant was gone out of the said room from the said meeting , he went alone by himself into another room ; and writ something , and brought it so written to some of the company , to the said mr. flanner in particular , and desired him to subscribe to the same ; ( this spake his malice and design : ) presently after the defendant was gone away . but the said mr. flanner and the rest held up their hands ( as astonish'd ) and blest themselves from him , saying , there was no such words spoke by the defendant ; and thereupon mr. flanner and mr. edgar writ down the words ( as aforesaid ) which were spoken , thinking the man had some design against the defendant to do him a mischief , as it appears since , too true ; and therefore they could not but remember the whole discourse as well as he : at least , all could tell there was no such words spoken . the preacher was a prophet when he preach'd of the horrid sin of man-catching ; it was jezebel's-way to get naboth's vineyard , and his life to boot ; 't is often fatal to have a vineyard that other men covet , kings . . and it came to pass , when jezabel heard that naboth was dead , that jezabel said to ahab , arise , take possession of the vineyard of naboth the jezreelite , which he refused to give thee for money , for naboth is not alive but dead . ( cunning harlot ! ) and it came to pass when ahab heard that naboth was dead , that ahab rose up to go down to the vineyard of naboth the jezreellite , to take possession of it . ( but this is a parenthesis . ) it was good sport to the by-standers , to hear how the glib-toung'd counsel did lay on tongue against the defendant , and to improve their little-evidence-man : they did earn their guinies , to give them their due . the lacedominians ( a wise people ) banish'd all hackney-orators out of their dominions , as pernicious to their common-wealth , because they could ( like old ladies ) paint and bedawb their wrinckles , could black-patch their pimples and sores , and make them beauty-spots . candida de nigris & de candentibus atra . could disguize the truth , and cast dirt and asperse when and where and whom they list , an effeminate-trade ; yet for calumny these lawyers are usually out-done by every fish-wife and butter-quean . but to go on with the famous trial , some men are bound to the good-behaviour , ( as the defendant told sir george jeffries , in the midst of his harrangue , ) wishing that his tongue also was as fast ty'd and bound to the good-behaviour , as is the defendants : and withal , told the gentlemen that were sworn , that the less heed was to be given to sir george's words , because he was not a man of his word ; for that sir george had promis'd the last assizes at brentwood ( a year and half ago , ) that he would never be retain'd ( nor plead ) against the defendant , tho any man should give him an hundred guinies ; no , not against curse ye meroz . — but comes me out ( before the next assizes ) — the poor book , called the naked truth — the second part. and then stand clear from a common-barretor , the knight had forgot his promise to curse ye meroz — so fickle a passion is this same thing ( called ) love , ( as this defendant now told him ) neither man nor woman knows well when they are sure on 't ; if i were his lady i should be jealous of him , ( nay , i should ) if he were as inconstant in his love to me , as he has prov'd to this defendant ; ( i say again ) at this rate his lady will scarce know when she can be cock-sure of his love ; ( inconstant man ! ) well , perhaps she may give him a rowland , for his oliver ; the punishment , the usual and just punishment of a liquorish tongue , ( a luscious , wanton , extravagant tongue is to be plagu'd with a ) liquorish t — but enough of that at present , i am in his debt , and i 'll certainly pay him off with celebrating in heroick verse , the merits of the noisy-hero and his lady , to perpetuate them to all posterity ; let him shake his head , and stare with open-eyes how he pleases , 't is strange if he should not some time or other meet with his match ; we are told — — a poet should be fear'd when angry , like a comets flaming beard . he shall repent his inconstance , ( he shall , ) let him do his worst . a time may come yet , and a day of reckoning , god is righteous , and he usually shows his justice in this world , against the greatest atheists that live hectoring and torying in defiance of him , as if god had forsaken the earth , and where is the god of judgment ? to support the credit of their little witness-man , which they craftily foresaw would be shrewdly shaken by all the witnesses , they had provided ( ready for the work ) five clergy-men , to adorn the little black-coat with five circingles more , men of the same stamp , ( and if possible , ) swore as boldly and venturously for him and the bishop , as harris himself ; and brought for the very nonce . but good sir george jeffries ( that never before had told a lye at the bar ) if you 'll believe him , or any hackney breath-sellers , they come not for the sake of the guinies , but purely in devotion to justice , and love to their clyent and his cause , tho pro or con , who comes first to retain them ( right or wrong , ) tongue waggs in the cause , if it be retain'd , and if the angel appear , then the a — opens his mouth , ( a very pretty world ) nay , many of them do not read their breviats 'till the cause be call'd , and then with two eyes , in all haste , they are busy to spy out vantages ; ( poor clients are well help'd up , and what with an ignorant jury , or a pick'd-jury for that very purpose , ( as this was by order of the court of king's-bench , the last day of the last term , upon the motion of sir francis withins , just such another man. ) poor country-men have a fine time on 't , to go to law as tinkers mend kettles , to remedy one hole in their estate , they make two ; is not this remedy worse than the disease ? ) what ? do you think a lawyer will tell a lye ? but the good knight , sir george jeffries , told a whisker at this time , when the said black-coats swore so heartily , in vindication of harris his reputation ; one mr. powell swore he had known harris a twelve-month and more , and he never knew any ill by him ; so swore one mr. kiddier , and mr. grove ( i think his name was ) of london , and so swore also one thompson , and one shelton , two colchester ministers . look you ( my lord ) quoth sir george , here are clergy-men swear to the reputation of the witness for the bishop , clergy-men that here come by accident , and spying them in court , we make use of them . whereupon the defendant ask'd the said colchester-ministers , thompson and shelton , whether sir george was a man to be believ'd herein , or a man of his word , when he said these clergy-men came by accident , &c. speak ( sirs ) you are upon your oaths , did you come by accident , or for set purpose subpoena'd to give this testimony ? they answered ( for they durst not do no other , being publickly subpoena'd ) that they came on purpose , being subpoena'd . then , ( good sir george ) retorted the defendant , where is your veracity , your truth good sir george ? but sir george sat down very angerly , his mouth was stop'd for once , ( is it not a wonder ! ) and the good gentleman was silenc'd , his welsh-blood flying into his face , and answering for him only with a blush : nay , 't is well he had the grace to blush , he is not much given to it ; but this was put upon him from his own witnesses , the said black-coats , who had all of them more cause to blush , than sir george , but they blush'd no more than a black-d — nay , i 'll trust such black-coats with an oath , as soon as poorer men , if there be a bishop in the case , and hopes of favour and preferment ; what ? can any man think they will not stretch it for a bishop , when ( one says ) they will ride down sun and moon for a benefice , a prebendary , or a dignity . the men were true sons of the church , and knew the virtue of the oath of canonical obedience ; but unhappily the defendant snap'd them with one single question , and made them all swear ( in effect ) tongue thou liest ; and contradict themselves and one another , and all upon oath too . the question put to every one of these clergy-men ( who swore so thorow-stitch to harris his reputation ) was this ; namely , is it not an ill thing in a clergy-man , and a vicar ( who is sworn to perpetual residence in his parish ) to be non-resident for three quarters of a year , minding only the fleece but not the flock ? this gravell'd them , for they knew the danger of perjury , and knew not well how to avoid it . and therefore powel being first ask'd the question ( and the rest of them after him , one after another ) was at a stand , and knew not what to say . let 's have no pumping , no pumping , i beseech you good mr. powel , answer directly , ( said the defendant . ) is it not an ill thing for a minister to be non-resident ever since before mid-summer last ? yes , replyed he , and they ; ( there was no help for it . ) well then , has not mr. harris been non-resident and deserted his flock ever since mid-summer last ? yes , replyed mr. powel , and the rest of them ; and yet before they knew no ill thing . but ( says mr. powel ) there has been some differences and contentions about the parishes of st. buttolphs and st. leonard's in colchester , which the bishop gave to mr. harris by sequestration : but ( replyed the defendant . ) what is that to fingringhoe , to which vicaridge harris is instituted , and inducted to your knowledg , for you were present at his induction , and so was thompson and shelton , the other witnesses ; which all of them confest , ( for they could not avoid it by any evasion or equivocation ) only said , there was no vicarage-house at fingringhoe ; to whom the defendant retorted , that it might be a good excuse for not residing upon his vicarage , if he resided in any other house of the parish ; but what is that to his leaving his flock at the distance of fourty miles , namely , at london , and taking upon him another cure and charge , ( as curate under mr. grove ? ) and leaving none to supply the place for three quarters of a year , nor four sermons from mid-summer to michaelmas ; and those preach'd by a quondam logg-river , one mr. sills , rector of dounyland ( a good rectory ) but the man tho a rector , never yet could , nor ever was able so much as to read his accidence ; yet he that knows not how to supply his own cure as he ought , must ( for cheapness ) mumble ( to boot ) a little for this prime and single episcopal-witness : ( good doings the while ! ) this 't is to be in favour with a prelate , and this 't is to incur the displeasure of a prelate , and tell bold truths ; ( behold the difference ! ) the defendant silenc'd , stigmatiz'd , bely'd and slander'd , vilify'd as a common-varlet and common-barretor , paid off with indictments , informations , actions and accusations , in spiritual court , in temporal courts , henry bishop of london promoter , suspensions , supplicavits , excommunications , fines , outragious verdicts , plots and complots , conspiracies and horrid plots to ruine him and his family , by enriching the rich bishop , and all for what ? for a little naked-truth . ( sir george jefferies brought the books , and pointed with his index to the two last lines of the black non-conformist , namely — a bishop sayest ? thou lyest : him cornet call of the black-regiment , that jayles us all . the welsh-man looking merrily at the defendant , and glaring in his face ; ) for sir george insisted more to the jury , concerning the defendant's books , and his writing and speaking against lordly prelacy ( than upon the declaration ) producing two letters writ by the defendant to the bishop , wherein he complain'd to the bishop how hardly he was used , ( i wish they would print those letters , as well as produce them to the jury , ) as if it were a sin to groan when a man is pinch'd and tormented : first they make us sigh , and then accuse us for sighing to ease our hearts . but first sir george insisted upon the title and superscription of those letters ( to the bishop of london ) which was descanted upon ( notably ) by that critick in law , sir george jefferies ; namely , this to henry lord bishop of london these . do you see , gentlemen , ( quoth sir george ) henry lord bishop , no more i sir , ( quoth he , to the defendant ) it might have become you to have styl'd him , — reverend father in god — you have not said — to the right reverend father in god , henry lord bishop , &c. that , quoth sir george is omitted , and seems to be an aggravation ( at least ) if not another scandalum magnatum : nothing but plain henry lord bishop ; a gentleman of a noble extract and pedigree , i hope the jury will take notice of this omission , here is no — reverend father in god. that is ( replyed the defendant ) the very naked-truth on 't , you say right , sir george , there is no reverend father in god in the case , who denies it ! but , ( said the defendant ) i am not innur'd ( nor desire to be innur'd ) to court-complements ; ( i think ) to say henry lord bishop , is pretty fair for him , and pretty fair from me . sir george makes little or nothing of a lordship belike ; whereas the bishop of london's grand-father william compton , liv'd the greatest part of his life without the title of lordship . for indeed william compton ( this bishop's grand-father ) was the first of the compton's that ever was an earl since adam : and king james created him earl of northampton , ( i could tell the reader how , and for what too ) anno dom. . there are thousands alive that remember the business . but no doubt , but the bishop did come of a noble extract : but if sir george had not taken notice of it , the noble family would have been never the worse ; for when men are always dung in the teeth with the same and the same bastinado , self-preservation makes them stand upon their guard , and perhaps take the length on 't : and as it happens , this pedigree ( that sir george did so bluster with ) is not so long neither — not so long as a welsh-pedigree , ap lewis , ap george , ap morgan , ap taphee , ap lloyd , is a pedigree more than twice so long . but i should have wondred , if the welsh-man ( on this occasion too , you 'll say ) had not vapour'd with his extract and pedigree . but , to the business — here 's no reverend father in god : 't is readily granted , nor is the omission a sin of omission , 't is no crime ; for a younger brother to be a lord that 's pretty fair , and more honour than his grand-father arriv'd unto at his years : for a man that was but the other day a cornet in captain compton's troop in the earl of oxford's regiment ( i think ) by the king's grace to be made a prelate , and a lord bishop , there 's no reason in the world that he or any body else should take it so in disdain , to be called only lord bishop , since that old complement ( of popish-times ) namely , reverend father in god , was never given 'till priests grew abominably and loathsomely proud and ambitious , when pride and prelacy came in fashion . the defendant in his epistle dedicatory to the arch-bishop ( to avoid offence ) in his book called the black-non-conformist , does give that old father , the stile — namely , ( the stile that sir george does so want , and does so stare about to the jury , to find it missing ) to the reverend father in god william , &c. but the bishop of london is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , newly come to the faith , as being young in years , and a cornet of horse within the memory of youth , and unmarried , and much a younger brother to the defendant , both in years , in travels , in studies , at the university , in experience , nay , as a souldier too ; one a cornet , the other a captain , one a great traveller as the most gentlemen in england ; the other 's greatest travels is but over the diocess , in conferences , visitations , to gather procurations , and unconformable confirmations not according to law ( as is proved in the black-non-conformist ; ) and for the defendant to have called one who is ( indeed ) ( only by the king's grace ( as being made a bishop and a doctor ) and therefore only ) his senior , but his younger brother by many degrees in all other respects , as aforesaid ; if the defendant had pleased sir george's humour , and had stiled him reverend father in god , perhaps the bishop would have thought the defendant had jeer'd him , and then all the fat had been in the fire again , and all in a flame , the other action of scandalum magnatum . and let the by-standers judg , whether it had not been as much for the bishop's honour , if sir george had never touch'd upon the pedigree , but have left it quiet as he found it ; nor yet have star'd about , when he mist the old cogging , flattering , hierarchical , and prelatical complement ( of ) reverend father in god. a complement now worn out at elbows , and as tatter'd , trite , and thread-bare , as — your humble servant . and for the noble pedigree , the welsh-man had as good have let it alone , ( if it had been possible for a welsh-man to omit the occasion ; ) but the noble extract and pedigree ( which no body does deny ) had rested never the worse if he had suffer'd it to sleep quietly to all posterity , without this his index to disturb it . here 's a flanting-do with these welsh-men and their extracts , and their pedigree's ; and if old adam or noah were alive , they would equally love a beggar , as one ( who is as nigh a kinsman of their blood ) as the welsh knight himself : away with this musty , worm-eaten-heraldry , some by pimping ( and worse , ) have got to be lords ; stand clear there from all his progeny , remember ric. . sirra , we 'll scandalum magnat . you ! do you not honour a lord , and a lord's son ? a lord's son ! can you prove your words ? now it is the mode in some countries , for ladies that have lords , to have also a gallant , a strong back'd coach-man , or sweaty foot-man , or groom , ( spindle-shank'd gentlemen-ushers ( as useless ) being laid aside : ) and now it is the mode , the court-like mode , for a lord that has a wife , to keep a miss — likewise ; that it would puzzle this same little harris ( who would make no bones of a probable oath ( but swallow it roundly ) to swear who is a lord's son ; and yet what a pother men keep in the world with their noble blood , noble blood ; when the chirurgeon swears , that there is not one of a hundred lords ( upon trial of phlebotomy ) has so good blood in his veins as the defendant . in guinee , therefore , to secure the blood-royal infallibly ( in the blood and family-royal ; ) the eldest son of the king 's eldest sister does heir the crown , not the king's son ; for so there can be no foul play . but the said two letters were read , wherein the defendant inculcated the commands of our saviour to his disciples , that they should not lord it over one another , ( as the princes and men of the world do : ) look you , ( says sir francis withins ) he justifies his speaking against prelates . ( as if it were a sin to quote our saviour's own words ! ) but especially he and sir george storm'd when the defendant said , that prelacy is condemn'd , tim. . . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , absque eo ut unum alteri praeferas ; without preferring ( or , prelating ) one before another . ) worse and worse , saith mr. withins , he justifies , here 's scandalum magnatum again , an aggravation gentlemen , i hope you will remember it in the damages . ( ay , ay , trouble not your head ! ) the jury-men were wise-men and had conn'd their lesson perfectly , and knew their business and what to do , as well as sir francis could tell them ; he might have spar'd his breath to cool his pottage ; or , for the next cause ; and yet when his tongue did not go , his hand went , ( at every clause and period and sometimes at every word ) lifting up his hand and then the cadence , ( he had seen the singing-men how they act their prayers . ) and when the words of the letter were full of heavy complaints , made to the bishop by this defendant , at every period , or clause , — hah ( quoth sir francis : ) as when in the letter the defendant complains , that the bishop of london listned to clandestine affidavits — ( hah ! quoth sir francis ) about the false accusations of barretry — ( hah ! ) and taken illegally ( hah — ) and out of court ( hah — ) when there was no cause depending — ( hah — ) nor any issue joined — ( hah — ) nor any cause that was of ecclesiastical cognizance — ( hah — ) and sworn by two bum-lifts — martin and groom , ( hah — ) two fellows of the basest conversation — ( hah — ) the former , martin , whip'd for a thief , ( hah — ) in sudbury — ( hah — ) and the record thereof produc'd , and prov'd at the assizes , by mr. george catesby , town-clerk of sudbury ( hah — still quoth sir francis : ) and that the fellows swore through an inch-board , as swearing against records ( hah — ) and after his lordship knew this to be true , yet he or his chancellor sir tho. exton , or the registers — morris and betts , or all of them , still prosecuted the defendant as a common-barretor — ( hah — ) and for taking a bribe for granting an administration to thomas shortland which they knew by their register-books was never granted , and yet ( knowing all this ) they suffer'd this martin to swear that he brought the administration from chelmnesford , from the register's-office of that couple — morris and betts ; and groom ( their apparitor , fit companions in their spiritual court ) swore he saw the administration under seal of the court , and granted to thomas shortland by the defendant , as surrogate ; when they knew all was false as god is true , and that not the defendant , but gilbert arch-bishop of canterbury ( in the prerogative-court where the defendant was never concern'd in his life ) and marcus cottle ( not morris , nor betts registers ) and under the seal of the arch-bishop : of such vexations and grievances the defendant humbly complains , ( but smartly and warmly too ) in his letters to the bishop , and humbly entreats the bishop , either to give him reparation for the damages he has causelessly been put unto ; or , if he would stand upon the plea of his innocence and justification ( that he would please to give this defendant the benefit of righting himself by law — ( hah — ) and that the said bishop would be pleased to wave his priviledg , and give appearance to the desendants attorney mr. coleman — ( hah — ) and come in amongst the rest of the conspirators and plotters against the defendants righteous name and reputation — ( hah — ) and that all these mischiefs had their rise from that old inveterate piece of malice ( hah — ) sir john shaw — ( hah — ) who without any lawful power or authority — ( hah — ) had taken clandestine affidavits ( hah — ) in his house ( hah — ) about barretry ( hah — ) depending in the king's-bench — ( hah — ) where sir john shaw had no authority to give or take an oath — ( hah — ) in private — ( hah — ) against the laws of the land ( hah — ) and made them ready against the bishop came down , to set the bishop to roil mr. hickeringill , whom , he knew , would not tamely suffer himself and his reputation to be illegally and publickly brought in question by any bishop in christendom — ( hah — ) this was the sum and substance of those two letters which the defendant writ to the said bishop , that were never answered , but only ( as men are when they are prest to death , ) with — more weight — more weight — the defendant , in vain , opposed the reading of his private letters , saying it was not genteel , civil nor manly to produce such evidence , and nothing to the present declaration , and that tho there was nothing in them but what was modest and true , yet private letters are , and ought to be sacred in their privacy , and that — ( si liceat parvis componere magna . ) king charles . ( if it be lawful to compare great with small ) did justly upbraid the parliament with the incivility of publishing his private letters taken at naseby , tho there was nothing in them , ( nor in this defendants letters ) for which any man need blush , or be blam'd . but this is the ecclesiastical-candor ; any method to expose the defendant , no vengeance is great enough , no fine or verdict outragious enough , to crush one that dares ( as the defendant has ) discover the mystery of iniquity ecclesiastical , in extortions , illegal fees , oppressions , and courts kept in dessance of the statutes of this realm , excommunications , absolutions , prophanations , procurations , visitations , ( namely ) vexations , &c. there 's a villain indeed ! plague him , all hands aloft , all 's at stake , down goes — if you do not help ; this fellow is another ( germana illa bestia quae non curat aurum , a ) german beast that regards not preferment , as the cardinal told the pope when he chid him , because he could not ( by tampering with luther , and the proffer of gold , and a cardinal's cap ) prevail with him , nor take him off from writing and preaching against the abominations and corruptions of the church and church-men . church and church-men ! ay , set but the clergy — upon a man , and you need not set any dogs upon him to worry him ? church and church-men ! ha! do you know who you speak against ? what ? find fault with oppressions and extortions of ecclesiastical-courts , with apparitors , registers , commissaries , and all that fry of lay-elders ? church and church-men ! ha! do you speak against prelacy ? say that word again , say it again before witness — sirrah , villain , rogue ! how dare you at this time of day speak scripture , dangerous scripture , scripture against statute-law , rich. . . which statute makes a prelate , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acts . . some great one ; and you , sirra , would have him , as your saviour and the gospel would have him , as lowly as christ or his apostles ; you , sirra , do you speak scripture in a court of law ? ha! what do you produce a bible instead of a breviate ? do you plead gospel against law ? and christ and his apostles , in defiance of rich. ? an aggravation , an aggravation , ( as sir francis withins said ) the defendant justifies in a plea of non-culp — this is rich indeed ! these errors will be committed when you suffer parsons to be pleaders , and plead their own cause , and understand not the punctilio's and methods of nice-pleading — very fine ! what suffer scripture to be quoted instead of law , and christ and his apostles , instead of cook and littleton ? for shame . and yet the defendant ( ignorant man ! ) did not understand the mischief of urging a little scripture in this cause betwixt two church-men , and already there decided , namely , that of christ , st. paul , and st. peter against all prelacy , pride , lordliness and dominion one brother over another , not lording it over god's heritage . but , christ and st. paul and st. peter were poor men , silver and gold had they none , they were meek , humble , and lowly , and when they were reviled , reviled not again , nor brought an action of scandalum magnat . nor did fee a pack of lawyers to mouth it , upon an old statute , made in the time of popish prelacy , and when antichrist was rampant , and when the devil raigned , a time ( as the defendant told the court ) when the prelates did all , and all ill ; a time when the prelates were grand rebels as ever were in england : for then ( in the raign of rich. . ) was this statute made , when the clergy were as very rebels as wall the priest , wat. tyler , or any of that wicked crew . 't is true ; henry spencer bishop of norwich , was general for the king both in england and france ( did not armour disgrace bishop henry's lawn-sleeves ? ) the bishop of ely was lord chancellor ; ( countez , two. ) tho. arundel bishop of hereford , ( countez , three ) lord treasurer : nicholas ( abbot of waltham ) lord privy-seal ; ( four. ) william arch-bishop of canterbury ; ( five . ) alexander arch-bishop of york ; ( countez , six . ) william bishop of winchester ; ( seven . ) and thomas bishop of exeter ; ( eight . ) good men and true : ( that 's a lye ) a pack of damnable villains and rebells as ever were in england , for taking upon them ( by commission ) to rule the king and kingdom , and so the judges concluded that ( commission of thirteen persons to rule the king and kingdom , of which eight were prelates , with five lay-men , for fashion-sake , for the prelates could out-vote them when they list , ) a devilish rebellion , abominable prelates in rich. d's time , when the statute of scandalum magnatum was made : and struck at it has been by the last parliament at westminster , and others , as a statute obsolete , or ( in the judgment of the wisdom of the nation , the honourable house of commons ) to be repealed ; being made in the wicked time aforesaid when the devil danc'd , and simon magus vaunted himself to be one of the magnat , some great one , and yet also the successor of simon peter ; who was a poor fisher-man , and a fisher of men ; not a pick-pocket , nor a promoter of law-suits ; nor did he mend his market by turning church-man ( as some have done , too well known ) but to his dying day was poor and pennyless , having his faith and hope in another world , and being a disciple of him whose kingdom is not of this world. all this and more the defendant told the court , and the men that were sworn ( for to give the judge his due ) he gave the defendant sufficient leave , and leisure for three hours to defend himself against the crafty suggestions , and dirty language thrown at him , on purpose to vilify him with dirt , which the counsel had rak'd up together ; and in two set-speeches made on purpose , fetch'd it far , and not at all to the purpose or to the matter in hand , villifying him with the miseries and vexations with which they had loaded him in the barretry and supplicavit , ( as if his sufferings were his only crime . ) but something they must say for their guinies , and for their lord prelate , and in hopes of preferment , and his good word and recommendation ; but the defendant gave them such smart , such nimble , and such home repartees , and ( so free from all passion , and unmov'd ) that even his enemies , and all the hearers could not but acknowledg , that as he never spoke more at one time , so he never spoke better in his life . and yet to no more fruit , than if he had preach'd ( as st. bede did ) to a heap of stones ; for the jury were resolv'd-men ; never men better tutor'd , better cull'd , and obsequious — paedagogue said to his imps — ye 'ave con'd your lessen well , stroke them o'th'head , call them good boys , and buy them ginger-bread . there is cunning in dawbing , and a cause slenderly witnessed , had need be well-jury'd , or else the l. had not been worth a gray-groat ; no , not worth a brummingham . a plain countrey yeoman has neither hopes nor fears at court ( the wiser and happyer man he ) he is neither fearful a commission to lose , nor in hopes of a commission to get ; but values his oath , his soul , and his conscience above all . you talk of an ignoramus-jury in london , we 'll match them in essex with billa-vera-men ; you talk of a whigg-jury , we can match them with a tory-jury : does not the london-juries idolize the men of doctor's-commons ? bring doctor's-commons-men into essex , and tho most abominable contemners of statutes , oppressors , extortioners , buyers and sellers of offices , and ( they know all this is true , except their consciences be hardned ) yet let them come into essex , and ( as the common strumpet said to the fellow that call'd her whore , which she knew as well or better than he ) you , sirra , villain , i would you would prove me a whore , sirra ; bear witness — neighbours — scandal . magn. — he calls me whore , scarlet whore — bear witness — sir thomas exton must be call'd too , as a witness , for his master the bishop ( a very good witness said the judge and the council ) a man untainted , they meant unattainted , unconvicted , as yet ; a blot is no blot 'till it be hit ; if i live it shall be as well as betts and morris — but what had sir thomas to do at a parish-meeting , in the parish of st. buttolphs in colchester ? no , that 's true ; but he was not produc'd as a witness to prove the declaration ; no , no ; a good reason why , he could not swear , when he was not there ; but he was call'd to prove some private discourse that the defendant had with him , in his private chamber , whither the defendant came ( in doctors commons , they being old acquaintance ) and the defendant desired the said doctor exton to mediate an accommodation betwixt him and the bishop , as a common friend to both ; which sir thomas undertook to do , when the defendant had ingenuously made a private confession to him of the truth of the case , to the very same effect , that the defendants witnesses unanimously swore it ; namely , that the defendant did speak of a printed paper , which the plantiff sent down to every clergy-man , beginning with these words — good brother — &c. and ending with these words — your lo. brother , h. london . in which paper the bishop recommended to the clergy the observation of the . . and . canons or constitutions of forty ; ( which the defendant said again in open court were so far from being according to law , that it was non-sence , forasmuch as the constitutions of forty , have not nor canons , nor above eleven , and therefore it was insolence or impudence , to lay upon the clergy burdens not to be born , and duties impossible to be observ'd ; forasmuch as it is non-sence to bid them observe the and canons and d of the constitutions of forty ; there is not so many , and yet there is enow of those lambeth-canons , which ( the defendant said ) do seem to have a mark of non-allowance by the car. . . for if the words of that statute leave those canons of , only just in statu quo , then the mentioning the — not confirming them , &c. in the said statute , signifies nothing at all ; for so those canons would have been ( in statu quo ) altho that statute had never been made ; which law , the defendant said , if the bishop knew not , it was his ignorance ; if he did know it , it was insolence to oppose his sence and judgment to that of the king and parliament ; and to impose impossibilities upon the clergy . and this defendant confessed again , that those words he did say , and if the bishop be aggriev'd thereat , he is at liberty ( if he have not enough of this ) to bring another action of scandal . magnat . if he pleased , but not being the words of the declaration , that , and what sir thomas exton witnessed was nothing ( as the judg fairly told the jury ) to this present action . but this must be said for sir thomas exton , he did his good will , and no doubt but he will reap the thanks for the same , and perhaps be the better for the defendants money ( when they can catch it ) but no jusuite could equivocate more than sir thomas did , when he first gave his evidence against the defendant upon oath . for he had the words — ignorance — and impudence — spoken of the bishop ; ( which come pretty near to those words in the declaration — impudent man — and ignorant man — but being not the same , could not affect , nor ought not to affect the jury ( as the judge honestly told them , and less he could not say ) as to the proof of the declaration ; for the all , the stress , and weight of that , lay solely and singly upon little harris his evidence . and for that cause , the defendant neglected sir thomas his evidence , as impertinent to the matter in hand ; but i thank you , — latet anguis in herbâ . when sir george perceived that the defendant had ( and willingly ) slighted it , and neglected to examine sir thomas exton about the colloquium and foregoing discourse preceding the words — ignorance — and impudence — which when afterwards confessed by sir thomas upon the defendants reexamining him , and quite altering the sence ) to see , how sir george ( when he thought the defendant had done , and said all , and the plantiffs counsel claim'd the privilidg ( that a sort of females claim ) of having the last word , ) to see , and hear , i say , how sir george and sir francis did mouth and open upon 't ; — here is sir thomas exton ( gentlemen ) a man of untainted reputation , he speaks in effect the same thing , and almost the same words , — ( and yet the judg had said before , that what sir thomas witnessed was nothing to the proof of the declaration ; ) but sir george spent many words upon it notwithstanding — whereupon the defendant interrupted him , ( at which he stared and storm'd and fretted at a great rate , ) but to little purpose , for the judg very mildly , bid the defendant go on to examine sir thomas exton more strictly , since they endeavour'd to make work with his testimony , ( declared impertinent to the present cause now in question , as aforesaid . ) sir thomas exton , ( said the defendant ) was there no colloquium , no discourse preceding nor subsequent to to the words ignorance , — and impudence ? — yes ; replyed sir thomas ; you were discoursing of a printed paper , and the statute of car. . . which seems to disallow the canons of forty , which statute ( you said ) if the bishop did not know , it was his ignorance , but , if he did know the same , it was impudence to oppose his sense and judgment , to the judgment of the king and parliament . and herein ( when it was almost too late ; herein , when he had almost forgot his oath , ( which so lately he had sworn ) to speak the whole truth , as well as nothing but the truth ; herein , when the jury and the court was possest and prejudic'd with his evidence first given of the words — ignorance — and impudence three hours together , then indeed , upon further examination the truth was pump'd out of him : oh! the policy of this wicked world ! some are wiser than some , at least some are crafty , wise to do evil , but to do good they have no knowledg ; a craft that is easily and readily learn'd ; for , any man , that is not a very fool , may soon arrive to be a knave ; tho none but a fool will be a knave ; any fool has head-piece enough to be a machiaveilian , if he have so little wit as to be a knave , and so bad a heart as to be hard , or hardned in mischief : for scarcely any man wants wit enough ( if he have but wickedness enough ) to be a knave or perfidious . then , the defendant bid sir thomas exton say , upon his oath , on what occasion these words were spoken to him by the defendant in private , with him in his chamber ? — to which the doctor then ( and not 'till then ) replyed , that the defendant came to him as his old acquaintance , ( but a false friend to be sure ) that he would use his interest with the bishop , to accommodate those matters ; which honest office of a peace-maker sir thomas undertook , and promised to give the defendant the bishop's answer with all convenient speed , the bishop being then at his country-house , at fullham . ay ; but when the defendant came again to his chamber , to hear the bishop's answer , sir thomas begun with wrinckled brows to tell this defendant , that — did he ( the defendant ) think that after all the mischiefs he had done to the bishop's courts ( ay , there , there , it pinch'd ) in his late books all the kingdom over , that the matter could be taken up with a private submission in a parcel of fair and soft words ? will you ( quoth sir thomas ) publickly and in print retract and refute your books called the naked-truth ? who , i ? ( replyed the defendant ) what ? the same hand that gave the wound give the cure ? what ? vulnus opemque tulit ? continued mr. hickeringill . nothing like it , quoth sir thomas ; no , no , ( replyed the defendant ) you are high enough already , but i 'll see you all 〈◊〉 high as pauls first ; whereupon the defendant departed from him , for ever parted . and let all ingenuous gentlemen judge , how un-knight-like , ungenteel , un-christian , and inhumane it was in sir thomas , to make his table a snare ; and to be an evidence to improve ( tho he could not prove ) the present action of scandalum magnatum , from words ingenuously confessed to him in private as a common-friend and mediator betwixt the bishop and the defendant . can any man imagine , or can it be in the least probable , that any man should give more scandalous words against the bishop , at the very time , and to the very man that undertook to be a peace-maker ? and did not so much as take the least exceptions against what was spoken ; but went to treat the bishop to terms of accommodation , until the defendant peremptorily refused to retract , or write against the books called the naked-truth , the second part ; in lieu of which retraction , the defendant did write again indeed , but mended the matter , in the black-non-conformist ; these are the dear , dear books , that has cost the defendant so dear , and must be his ruine , if combined clergy-malice and revenge-ecclesiastical will do the feat . barnaby — tak 't for a warning , neither write nor speak ( as this defendant has ) against the vile corruptions , abominable extortions of the men of doctor's-commons ; hem ! heu ! wo , and alas ! devorat accipiter , vexat censura columbas . the birds of prey are never vext , but the poor doves must be perplext . or , thus ; make rome there for the birds of prey ; but fright the poor doves quite away . let the vexations , citations , actions , articles , promotions , writs , supplicavits , and oaths of the ecclesiastical-men , and men of doctor's-commons ( the only affidavit-men against mr. hickeringill ) be chronicled to all posterity ; together with that unconscionable , inhumane and outragious fine of l. by a pick'd jury ( pick'd and appointed on set purpose ) together with the names of the precious jury-men ; and let them pray that the righteous god do not deal as severely with them and theirs , to their ruine , as they have unmercifully and unchristianly ruin'd the defendant and his family , wife and children . god is just ( not only hereafter , but ) in this world , wait and see the finger of god in this affair ; shall he not avenge his own elect , tho he bear long with them ? yea , he will avenge them speedily ; he must , he will , to vindicate his word , his gospel , his christ , and his apostles , ( publick enemies to prelatical pride ) against all the hypocrites that put on religion , religion ; the church , the church , for a cloak to their tantivee-avarice , and high-flown ambition . good god! arise , and let thine enemies be scatter'd , and let all that hate thee , flee before thee . a single arm has done wonders when upheld by god. we read indeed , eph. . . that god gave some apostles , some prophets , and some evangelists , and some pastors and teachers , for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry , &c. but who the devil brought that man of sin , that son of perdition into the church ? tim. . , . that sits in the temple of god , and opposeth , and exalteth himself above all that is called god ? ( viz. the magistrate . ) away , away , with these carnal millenaries , the kingdom of christ is not of this world , nor the true apostles and disciples of christ ambitious to sit neither on the pinnacle of the temple , nor the pinnacle of the palace . when bishops begun to be very rich , then , then , they begun to be high-minded and to trust in uncertain riches , rather than in ( the words of ) the living god , tim. . . the words of our blessed saviour and his apostles against tyrannical and lordly prelacy ; and when they left the word , then they to clap their hands upon the tame magistrates sword , if one would not , the other should ; this is the plain truth on 't , and observ'd by all that observe any thing . for who heeds their excommunications , their suspensions , their silencings , their ecclesiastical mischiefs , curses and anathema's , if it were not for the old writ invented first by popish prelates , and since and now still made use of to this day , to eeke out their spiritual-weapons , which every man can take the length of . the bloody and numerous sect of the donatists in africa , what mischief brought that heresy to the christian-world , and all the quarrel arose , because donatus ( that diotrephes that lov'd to have the preheminence , ep. joh. . or , was ambitious of being a prelate , as the original properly signifies ) ruffled with cecilianus for the bishoprick of carthage . solomon says , from pride comes contention ; for a man ambitious to sit perking upon the pinacle of the temple ( the fittest place ( the crafty devil thought ) to insinuate his temptations upon our blessed saviour ) he will endeavour to break that man's neck , that says come down , into the seat of the church amongst your brethren , where our saviour has plac'd you ; nay , and the ( honest ) canons too . what inhumane cruelty did the prelates ( in the council of constance ) exercise to poor john wickliff , our country-man , rector of lutterworth in leicestershire , and ( his naked-truth in articles ) that cut them to the very hearts , because it cut their combs for them ; and not content with killing him , after he was buried one and forty years , they caused his bones to be digged up ( barbarous and cruel ecclesiasticks ! ) and to be burn'd ( inhumane divines ! ) nay , that great advocate for prelacy ( sir george jefferies ) in this assizes , took notice , that of all the witnesses that swear at the assizes , the clergy-men , the — clergy tell the strangest tales , and the most oddely , and most impertinently , of all other witnesses , ( perhaps 't is because they are forced to preach at the assizes without book . ) but of all the clergy-vvitnesses , never did any thing look so beshrimpen and appall'd as that same little harris , the bishop's special witness ; truly the man has reason to go snips , and have half of the l. given in damages to the bishop . for neither the bishop , nor any man alive , had to this day ever heard of those scandalous words in the declaration , if he had not broach'd them , and been the author of them ; for after the defendant was gone , little imagining ( as neither any in the company ) that any offence was taken , or any exceptions made , no not so much as by harris ( the man-catcher . ) the little blade goes to another room , writes what he lists , or what he remembers , ( and such a man had need of a good memory ) but 't is treacherous ; and out he brings his own scandalum magnatum , hoping to get some one in the company to be ( if possible ) as wicked as his little clergyship : but by god's good providence missing his aim , away he trudges , lest he should be called to an account for his own devised scandals , and be forced to find the author ; away trudges he , as fast as his wicked legs could tremblingly carry him , to that old piece of malice , sir j. s. that has always an open heart , as well as open ears , at a piece of mischief against the defendant . harris could scarcely ( on this side hell ) have met with a fitter tutor , whose friendship is artifice and superficial ; but his malice , revenge , and wickedness is natural , innate , deep , as his own , own self . nor could any present be more welcome to the bishop ( it seems by the consequence ) than articles against the man that finds such fault with his illegal confirmations , visitations , vexations , &c. therefore call a court — come to the cabal — all the breath-sellers , whose trade also is endangered by the wicked defendant : search old statutes , ( for the promoting whereof empson and dudley were hang'd ) vex and ruin ( by the aid of a good jury ) the defendant , and his family ; and only for a supposed transgression , proved by a slender and self-contradicting evidence , that swore three times , and every time varied ; and yet ( i 'le warrant ) he had said them over and over , since last easter , oftner than he had said his prayers : but he was not suffered to swear by book , tho he prayes and preaches all by book . ) for if ( at the first time ) he swore the words true , the other was false and he a false varlet , and not to be believed by any jury , that were not resolved ; and some would not have been suffered to attempt the third time , especially , . he was but a single evidence , and therefore neither the bishop ought to have believed him at first , nor the jury now , swearing against a presbyter ; because the holy scripture ( as the defendant urged ) ought to have some respect and observance , ( from a bishop especially ) who is commanded , against an elder not ( so much as ) to receive an accusation , but under two or three witnesses . . this little witness was not to be believed , because point-blank contraried by six substantial witnesses , who were not negative witnesses only , but affirmative and positive : for they did not only swear they did not hear any such words , but all jointly and positively affirmed , that they heard the whole discourse , heard all the words , and well remembred them , because harris ( after the defendant's departure , not before ) going into another room , and writing other words than the defendant spake , and bringing them to the rest of the company to subscribe , they writ down the true words whilst fresh in their memories , and all turn'd abhorrers of so vile a man , and so wicked a design : and all this was upon oath made appear to the judg and jury , by the oaths of all the six witnesses ; but no notice was taken of it by the judg , when he summ'd up the evidence , otherwise than that he honestly said , the evidence on both sides was quite contrary one to another , and could not be both true . and who could imagine , that an unbiass'd jury should judg six honest lay-men , ( that had no design but truth ) should swear false , in compliance with a puny clergy-man , not worthy a name or company amongst honest men , ( such man-catchers should be avoided by all men , as enemies to all commerce and conversation ) and such a fellow too as swears for himself indeed ; for he is the author of the scandalum magnatum , if he could not father his lies upon the defendant , as he has done , thank a good jury , by special orders of the bench to the high-sheriff himself , to pick them , and empannel them throughout the county . and the jury-men for estates and quality were well enough , but not one of them any other than such as know who and who is together ; and all or most of them in commission and dependance for their places and offices , at the arbitrement of — . how improbable is it , that the defendant should put a dagger into his enemy's hand , the hand of a creature that came to take his benefice from him and to eat the bread out of his mouth ? . how probable is it that one single evidence may and must forswear himself in this case , when six men contradict him at the same time and minute , soon after the words were spoken ? . how improbable it is , that a man should truly repeat another man's discourse , that cannot repeat his own discourse and words off-book , in sermon or prayers , or now upon oath ? . how improbable it is , that one man should swear truth against all the rest of the company , who are so positive in what they heard , and then swore unto , unanimously and constantly , like honest men , when no persuasions , no motives , no temptations , could alter them ? ( for they had all been tamper'd with , and mr. edgar , mr. hill , and daniel howlet were subpoena'd for the plantiff . ) but all would not do to win them for the bishop's side , and make them face about . . lastly ; what jury alive ( except this ) could , against the evidence of so many substantial witnesses , credit one single creature , that was so infamous ? first ; for deserting his flock , that he swore to feed , and was bound by oath , by law of god and man , justice , conscience , equity , and christianity , to look after , and mind the cure of them , and take the care and charge , but neglected by him three quarters of a year together ; and whilst the fleece grows , he is hired to another flock , staying till summer ( till the wooll be grown ) before he goes down to clip them . secondly ; infamous , because he had forsworn himself before this time , ( as the right honourable the earl of lincoln there in court testified upon his oath . ) when harris was his chaplain , and having often broke his word with the earl , and told him many a lie , he was not willing any more to trust him upon the security of his bare word ; whereupon harris takes up a greek testament that lay upon the table , and solemnly imprecates , by all the mercies and benefits that he should receive by the contents of that holy book , he would return to the earl ( at furrhest ) on the next saturday , and so be ready the next day to officiate , except sickness prevented . but the gentleman came not home till the tuesday following , and then came with tears in his eyes , that is , ( as the earl upon his oath explain'd it ) drunk , maudline-drunk . and the earl said , it was some considerable time , and not till his servants took notice of it to him , that weeping was the certain symptom of his being in drink ; that as other men rant and tear , and swear when they are drunk , this little episcopal tool always wept when he was drunk . whereupon the earl ( one time when he saw him weep ) ask'd him , what ail'd him ? harris answered , that he had a sister an apprentice in the exchange , and that he had heard sad news of her , namely , that her mistress and she had quarrell'd , and had some hard words together . another time he said he wept , because he had an vncle lately dead . this was over-night , but the next day , when the earl ask'd him of the quarrel betwixt his sister and her dame , and of the death of his vncle , ( at another time ) harris star'd at him , and ask'd his lordship , what he meant by these matters ? for he could not imagine what the earl should mean by such questions ; he said ( indeed ) he had a sister an apprentice , he had an vncle , but never heard of his death , nor ( at the other time ) of the said female-bickering . and as for the solemn oath that he had took and broke , he told the earl , there was a cause for his stay , for he was in pursuit of a girl , whom he intended also to marry , ( and he was as good as his word in that , for this episcopal implement has her ( much good may she do him ) body and bones . but would any jury , that were not of tory-consciences , credit the single testimony of this bishop's engine , when ( it was prov'd ) that he abandon'd all his interest that he expected in the mercies and benefits of the gospel , and the merits of our blessed redeemer , for a fit of wooing , or in pursuit of a wench . or , set a profligate clergy-man in competition with six honest , substantial laymen , and men of unstained honesty and reputation , except the tories are eagle-sighted , nimble and quick to foresee the inundation of popery , that ( they senslesly imagine ) is coming , tumbling in apace ; ( but i hope god will preserve his majesty with longer life than any of his father's children ; that as he is the alpha , he may be the omega , the last as well as the first of his father's children . thus i prophesy as i would have it , not ( i confess ) according to the course of nature , nor according to the bloody principles and bloody plots of papists , who ( as it is undoubtedly known , even by them that ridicule the popish plot ) never spare any prince that is not ( at least in heart ) heretical , and of whose inclination they have not good assurance , longer than they think good , or can come at him . i say , the jury possibly were quicker-sighted than other mortals , and could foresee the speedy appearances of approaching popery , if all be gospel , and infallible , that comes from a clergy-man , ( tho he be as lewd and bad as the irish friar , teague o divelly ) ; but lay-men are not to be believed against a clergy-man , ( this is the council of trent , right ! just right ! ) nor to have the benefit of the clergy ; you must not expect it , gentlemen ; never look for it , ( you lay-men ! ) till you come to be hang'd . from a tory-jury , good lord deliver us : that 's as honest a letany , as that letany that used to be read or sung just before the mass , i do not mean that letany , ( where 's harris with his innuendo ? the popish — suffer me to explain my self ; do not lie at catch , and at snap ; i do not mean that letany ) wherein was the suffrage now blotted out , and thought by the wise ( who think themselves wise enough to make our prayers for us in spite of our teeth ) to be omitted , and left out , for fear ( no doubt ) of displeasing his holiness , — namely , — from the bishop of rome , and all his vile enormities , good lord deliver us . but since neither the act of vniformity , nor the common-prayer-book , does license us ( as once it , did ) to pray so against the pope● ; yet i will take liberty ( without asking leave of an act of uniformity , or a common-prayer-book , ) to pray , — from a tory jury ( of forlorn , desperate , and hardned consciences ) — good lord deliver us . i ( once ) thought , the defendant might have ventur'd his life in the hands of this genteel jury , one moyety knights , i 'le assure you ; but ( as coleman said at the gallows , when his devil fail'd him ) there is no truth in men. when power and interest does but plead against it , there is no oath so sacred , but some sort of judges and jury-men will break it without any regard . ay , ay , the honest lord chief justice hale is dead and gone , in his room ( seldom comes a better ) came sir will. scroggs , but , as thought unmeet , discharged ; but to mend the market , ( who comes there ? ) who comes next ? sir francis pemberton , the present judg in this cause . with whom we will ( as he did ) conclude this trial ( for i have enough on 't , if you knew all , whatever the reader has ) sir francis summing up the evidence , and directing the jury , to this effect , — namely , — that this action was brought by the bishop of london , against mr. hickeringill , upon the statute — ( scandal . magnat . ) for speaking scandalous words of his lordship , and such words ( he told them ) as the defendant himself ingenuously acknowledged . ( such a rehearsal transpros'd would fright a man from ever making an ingenuous acknowledgment whilst he lived : if a man be not submissive , then he is proud and obstinate , and justifies , ( an aggravation , an aggravation , as mr. withins said ) but if he be coming , they 'll take him o' the chaps , and make him stand further off ; but this is the policy : the judg said , that the defendant acknowledged ) that if he had said the words modo & formâ , as they are laid in the declaration , the jury could not punish him enough . ( this 't is to be courtly and complemental , a man that is not us'd to it neither ; for really and truly the words in the declaration ( the lawyers say ) are not actionable , except the last innuendo , the popish plot , had been proved ; and instead of an innuendo , harris swore — plot against my righteous name : it is besides impossible to be prov'd by this declaration , because no preceding colloquium is laid ; ( but this 't is to be civil , and to make concessions , without which the judg would have been put to 't to have directed the jury , as to the scandal of them , or the law in that point . for 't is not scandal . magnat . ( the learned say ) to say , — his lordship is very ignorant , because 't is true of him , ( and of wiser men , and better men than henry bishop of london ) and therefore cannot be lies , and scandalous , or within that statute . the bishop of london for knowledg and wisdom is not worthy to carry st. paul's books , cloak , or parchments after him , if he were alive ; and yet that blessed apostle ( that could cast out devils with a word ) confesses he was very ignorant , and knew nothing as he ought to know . but not to insist of divinity , to come to philosophy , the wisest man of greece , and the chief of the seven wise men of greece , ( to whom the oracle of apollo awarded the golden tripos ) confess'd he was so ignorant , that he knew nothing but only this , namely , he knew that he was very ignorant , or knew nothing : hoc tantum scio , quòd nihil scio . 't is atheism to say , that st. paul made that ingenuous confession of his ignorance , ( in that and many more places ) only in complement , ( as some that are as proud as lucifer , or as the devil can make them , will yet say , — your humble servant . ) for shame — away with these scandal . magnat.'s , and undoing men and families for speaking nothing but the naked-truth , and which the bishop of london cannot , without blushing refuse to acknowledg that his lordship is very ignorant . which , if he does acknowledg , the defendant and he are agreed in one certain naked-truth . but if his lordship does not acknowledg that he is very ignorant , all the wisemen of man-kind must condemn him , as very ignorant ; for none but he that does not know himself , none ( but a fool ) but must know and acknowledg themselves to be very ignorant : 't is true , the issue is non-culp . because the defendant never spoke those words as they are ( modo & formâ ) laid singly , by themselves , in the second count of the declaration ; and all the witnesses ( except harris ) ( nay , exton the doctor 's commons man too ) says that the word ignorance had reference to the law or statute , of which , tho a bishop be ignorant , yet it is no blemish nor scandal to him : nay , scarce a bishop in england understands , or ever read so much law as the defendant , yet it is no scandal to them , nor disparagement ; nay , harris himself at last confesses , that the ignorance and the impudence had reference to the printed paper and the canons of forty ; and therefore these words — his lordship is very ignorant , could never ( as laid in the second count singly ) be spoken in manner and form as they are laid in the declaration . but were the bishop of london ( really and truly ) wiser than solomon , st. paul , or socrates , yet it is as clear as the sun at noon-day , that he was ignorant in tanto ( whatever he might be in toto ; ) namely , ignorant in so much , and in that ( which occasion'd all this discourse ) namely , in sending harris with a sequestration of the benefits , and the small tithes of the parish of st. buttolph's ( the place of this contest , and also the occasion too ) in colchester ; when the said small tithes and benefits , nay , all tithes , both small and great tithes , of st. buttolph's parish appertain to the defendant , as rector of the rectory of all-saints , and has been enjoyed by his predecessors since the raign of henry the th , and so to continue for ever , as is more fully declared pag. . of the black-non-conformist , and therefore it is no lye , ( and therefore not within the said statute of scandal . magnat . ) but a great truth , tho a costly one . truth has been a dear commodity to this defendant , but still it is too true , that the bishop was very ignorant in sending such a sequestration ; it had been better for the defendant by l. if he had been wiser , and then this sad occasion had never come : ( hard case ! ) to be whip'd on another's back , and taken up at these years for other men's faults ; and that the bishop should without law disturb the defendant's title to his free-hold , and then by the help of his tool and utensil , and a good jury , ruine him for complaining when he is pinch'd . the itch , the scab , the morphew , the boyls , the uncombs , the carbuncles , the leprosy , the pimples , ( a pox ) and the nodes , are but skin-diseases , and deformities coming immediately from the vicious ros , and gluten of the third concoction ; ( at third hand , poor par-boyling function , but it cannot help it ) for the mischief , the mischief , the author and origine of all this mischief , is the first ventricle , that 's erronious , and out of order . if the bishop ( the original cause of all this discourse and stir , in sending down a sequestration of the small tithes of st. buttolphs ( the defendant's free-hold ) by this same harris , in hopes to do the defendant a mischief or displeasure , ) had not been mistaken in this his attempt , these evils had not come , they were but the third concoction , and necessary consequents of the bishop's error . except some thought perhaps that mr. hickeringill is ( as heraclitus now calls him ) an ass , good for nothing but to be burthen'd ; or , worse than a worm , and — should say — prelate come tread me , come , stamp upon me . i know , such an ass-like sottishness had been , ( as it proves ) the wisest way , because the cheapest way , — but what patience can endure to be so nusled ? and so the word — impudent — if ( as it ought ) it have reference to that nonsensical ( at least ) imposition , upon the clergy , and to the statute ; who can deny but that it is insolence and impudence too , for a bishop so to insult over the clergy , as either to recommend to them articles to observe , which are no where to be found , or which interfere , or are not warranted by the statute ? and if the defendant had not been over-ruled by a sort of lawyers , he would have pleaded the words , specially as they were spoken , absque hoc , &c. and not to come upon an issue non-culp . — against a fellow that ( every body assur'd him ) would swear right-down thump ; and yet his memory fail'd him , for he could not for his life repeat the first words , right ; nor any one time repeat them , one like another and uniform . but let the world judge , whether any sorry witness be not good enough , when a bishop is plantiff , and before such a jury , and such a — ( god help ! ) it will not always be thus ; let not the tory pamphleteers ever henceforth prate of an ignoramus-jury ; here 's a billa-vera jury ( an essex-jury to a proverb ) that shall give them half way , and yet over-run them : ( but all this long parenthesis by the way . ) sir francis pemberton goes on to this effect , tho not perhaps in the very words , — that the jury had heard the defendant's ingenuous acknowledgment , and that he must direct them to find good damages , if they find for the plantiff ; saying that the bishop of london is a worthy and learned bishop , as any in england ( that 's a large place , and a large word , and a large comparison ; i know not how the old arch-bishop of canterhury would take it , if he should hear on 't ; ) and therefore ( quoth the judg ) you must vindicate his lordship's reputation , and give good damages , if you find the words — and they are sworn unto , by one that is a clergy-man ; he is ( said the judg ) a single witness ( for what sir thomas exton says , ( he told them ) they must not take to be any proof of this declaration ) but if they find that this single witness swears true , contrary to the other six for the defendant ; ( for , he said , he must say the evidence is quite contrary one to the other , and cannot both be true ; ) then ( if they find for the plantiff ) he told them they might have some respect to sir thomas exton's evidence in aggravation of damages : but said again , ( very honestly ) that sir thomas proved nothing as to the declaration ; but told them that sir thomas exton is a man of unstained reputation ; the judg not reflecting in the least , upon the known and constant extortions and corruptions of doctor's-commons ; nor , taking the least notice of dr. exton's disingenuity , in being a publick evidence in aggravation , for words spoken upon treaty of submission , and as to a friend , and without any exception or disgust , ( well liked of , by the doctor , ) at least , unmanly to make his table a snare , except a man had spoke treason ; ( but this is the candor of an ecclesiastical-lay-elder , or lay-vicar general ; ) for that is his place , he is the bishop of london's vicar-general , the bishop cannot help it , he has a patent for it for his life , granted by humphrey late bishop of london : good doings ! when our souls must be tutor'd by a lay-vicar that cannot preach , but has got a patent to send us to the devil , and ( at his good pleasure ) back again ; rare doings ! this is the man of reputation , ) who is ( the judg goes on ) unblemish'd in his repute : telling the jury , that he must say , as to the reputation of this single evidence for the plantiff ( for indeed the cause depends wholly upon his single reputation ) and that tho non-residence be an ill thing , and that is prov'd upon him , and cannot be denied ; yet a man may be a good witness , tho he do transgress a statute ; none of us ( said he ) but do transgress a statute some time or other . ( note by the way , this is not the same direction given at mr. rouse's trial , when for the breach of a statute ( of vniformity ) the dissenters could not be admitted to be jury-men , ( the black non-conformist is good for something yet , for since the publishing of the black nonconformist those new laws are not repeated ; ) and if they are by the breach of a statute uncapable of giving a verdict , surely they are much more incapacitated to give an evidence . but he goes on — telling the jury , non-residence is not good , it is an ill thing , ( indeed it is ) but god forbid but a man may be believed upon his oath , tho he be non-resident . ( and no doubt on 't , 't is very true , and so may a non-conformist also surely , ( god forbid else ) and with much more reason : for the one sins ( if non-conformity be such a sin ) out of weakness ; but this non-resident ( whom the judg excus'd ) has sinn'd three quarters of a year wilfully and wickedly ; a vast difference ! ( how many blemishes can episcopal favour draw a curtain over , and hide ! ) and indeed the judg ( if a body may say so ) mightily mistook ( through want of memory , or worse ) in summing up the evidence thus to the jury : for the defendant did not examine and force the clergy-men to swear harris's non-residence , as thereby uncapable of being a witness , ( as the judg summ'd it ) the defendant was never guilty of such nonsence and impertinence , ( and therefore the judg mistook himself ) but the defendant made the clergy-men ( that brought to support harris his credit ) to swear his non-residence , that with their own tongues they might swear that they themselves were not men of credit , nor sit to be believed , and therefore more unfit to prop another man's credit , that had ruin'd ( for ever ) their own , by swearing contrary things , and impossible to be true ; namely , that they never knew any ill thing by him , and yet they were forced after that to swear him a non-resident , that ( contrary to his oath canonical , and his duty to god and his flock , ) had left them to a log-river , that cannot read his accidence , much less supply his own cure , the said mr. sylls . ( the nonconformists have not got all the mechanick preachers , the church of england hath got some , log-rivers , broken trades-men , and i know who . ) but listen to the judg , how he goes on , but takes no notice of what the earl of lincoln swore against harris , no notice of his forswearing himself for the company of a wench , no notice of his being a maudlin-drunkard , no notice of harris his design to ensnare the said earl out of the fee-simple of the manor of throckingham , l. per annum , by a deed writ in court-hand , which he thought the earl could not read , when the earl intended only to settle the mannor of throckingham ; and for this piece of knavery , the earl swore , that he was credibly informed , that harris was to have , if it succeeded , a hundred guinnies . nemo repentè fit improbus ; no man can be a great rogue per saltum , suddenly ; villany , like youth , must have time to grow , gradatim . but the honest judg took no notice of the villany sworn against this harris , and thus particulariz'd by that noble earl , that scarce a jury in the world would hang a dog upon such evidence . but listen to what the judg said , to this effect , telling the jury that he left it to them . but on the other side , said the judg , the defendant has made indeed a very large defence , and has told true , that this statute of rich. . upon which this action of scandal . magnat . is brought , was made when popish prelates bore a great sway ; but it is not repealed , ( remember that ) it is in force , and is not yet repealed . and tho ( as the defendant hath alledged ) religion now is not the same , nor has the same head , nor the same face consequently ; yet the statute is not repealed . the defendant has produc'd six witnesses , to contradict the bishop's single witness : they do swear contrary one to another , both their testimonies cannot be true : they swear , that some of them writ down the words , upon mr. harris his coming to them to have them subscribe his paper , which they refused , saying , soon after the words were spoken , that the words were not so spoken by the defendant , but so and so , as now they all unanimously still agree in ; and if you believe them , you must find for the defendant . thus have i given the reader a true account , and also an ample and full account of this trial ( so much talk'd of ) nor have i omitted any one material thing , spoken by the counsel , or the judg , or given in evidence , on either side , but without partiality have given a faithful account . but the jury withdrawing , ( and dinner ready ) the crier adjourn'd the court ; but before he had fully cry'd out his cry , hold , hold , cries sir george jefferies , and sir francis withens , to the crier ; and he obeyed : whilst they whisper'd to the judg , and desired him to stay a little longer , for the jury would speedily return ( they knew their minds and resolutions belike ) with their verdict , thinking and intending to snap the defendant in court , and have him committed to prison , if they knew how , without bail , as the statute enjoins in the case , if scandalous words be found ( by the verdict of twelve men ) to be spoken of a prelate . — make room there — take heed , gentlemen , take warning ; and if you will avoid hard imprisonment , and l. and an unmerciful and cruel jury , speak not against the prelate — not a word , no , tho it be god's word ; and therefore make an index expurgatorius , and blot out of your bibles , luk. , , , . and pet. . , . and tim. . . tim. . , . acts . . for these , and many more , condemn a brawling , proud , young , covetous action-driver , and promoter , ( tho a prelate , so much the worse ) condemn all prelacy that insults over , tyrannizes over , or lords over the brethren , and like greedy and grievous wolves , entring in , not sparing the flock ; as if the flock of christ was made to be eat up , and devoured , not to be fed ; and as if the rich bishops could not thank god , and be content with their rich palaces and endowments , but they must enrich themselves with the tears , cries , and groans of the widow and orphans ; a blessed time ! but some say , that the bishop of london intends to build paul's with this l. ( when he gets it ) as far as l. will go . — i 'le speak more to that in the following observations . but first let us conclude the trial. the jury , after some consultation amongst themselves , soon agreed upon their verdict , being soon resolv'd upon the premises , and the conclusion , ( not before-hand surely ) but they made no great pause upon the matter ; the case was a clear case as any thing , not to be question'd , and about a trifle — only — l. damages . who are you for ? a silly question not to be nam'd ? who are you for ? for the defendant , do you say ? ( a likely matter ) when there is a great bishop , and privy-councellor , and great with the king and court ; for the defendant ? not a man ( i dare say ) was so simple . what! do you think wise men do not know which side of their bread the butter lies on ? and yet one of the defendant's counsel , ( for he had retain'd counsel , and fee'd them again at the assizes , rather to avoid the imputation of penury , than of any intent he had to make use of them ) came to the defendant whilst at dinner , and whispering him in the ear , assur'd him that the private verdict was given in , and for the defendant . after him came another with the same errand , whether deceived through weakness , or designing to deceive the defendant through wickedness , i shall not determine . this is certain , the plot was to inveigle the defendant into the belief of the verdict , which the defendant did so far believe , ( for neither he , nor any unbiass'd men could imagine any other verdict than for the defendant ; the declaration being but stammeringly , uncertainly , variously , and contrarily repeated by the episcopal implement , little harris ; himself prov'd infamous by a noble peer , ( whose oath not to credit , was the greater scandal . magnat . of the two ) and ex abundanti , six substantial witnesses contradicting that infamous engine of wickedness . ) besides , the declaration not prov'd in the least , namely , that the scandals were spoken before divers the king's subjects : here was but one subject , and he none of the best . and accordingly the defendant was treating with his landlord at the white-horse , how and with what suitable accommodation to treat the jury , ( for that is the custom belike ) ; but the jury were wiser , and expected a better treat , ( for a quite-contrary verdict ) by a greater purse . the plot was to cajole the defendant into a good opinion of the privy-verdict , that so staying in town , the adversary might snap him with a caption , ready cut and dried , to hale him to jail . and if they had succeeded in that after-game , it had been to them worth ten such verdicts ; for if they had got him into lobs-pound for six months , i do not know but the stone doublet might have lasted him his life-time . but they were not more cunning than he was crafty ; and being inform'd by his faithful friends ( that could see as far into a mill-stone as the best of them ) and as privy as the nasty verdict was , they scented it : and thereupon the defendant , with five more of his friends , took horse , and rid for london , where he now is , giving their wiles the go-by , to their great grief , and will not appear till he list , in good time , and when time shall serve . we 'll catch him , we 'll pound him , quoth ( sir sun ) — my friends — it is not to be done . for a man that is in safe harbour to put out to sea ( 'till the storm be over ) argues folly indeed ; the fool ( solomon says ) goes to the correction of the stocks ; or , puts his neck into the collar . to abscond for treason , murder , robbery , fellony or debt , would indeed be dishonourable to the author of naked truth . but , ( blessed be god , ) the man-catchers have laid nothing ( as yet ) to his charge , but words spoken against their pretty-courts and prelates , and these wrested ( too ) from their true meaning , ( as shall be proved hereafter in the supplicavit-business . ) if worthy men , and men of great reputation and renown may be credited so much as harris and the six proctors . and these accuse the defendant of nothing but some rash words ; ( take them at the worst ) they lay no crime to his charge , but such as is common to men , especially to men of the defendant's complexion . for he is a man subject ( above many others ) to many infirmities , somewhat cholorick by nature and constitution , ( which tho he strives ( through grace ) to quell , yet 't is hard quite to extirpate nature . ) but if none but such ( as never spoke a rash word , nor ever spoke worse words than is laid to the defendant's charge ) should cast the first stone at him , or put him in jaile , 't is hoped he might safely walk the streets again , and go to his grave in peace . in the interim he absconds neither for debt , treason nor felony , ( that 's a great mercy in these shamming-times ) but enjoys the happiness of walking incognito ( a happiness that princes seldom can arrive unto , and because of their publick-station are ( in vain ) ambitious of ) and sees and hears what 's done in the world , sees and observes — sees and takes notes — sees , ( as in a balcony ) the bustling cavalcade in the streets , and yet not annoyed with the clamorous and sweaty crowd ; sees and is not seen — there 's the pleasure as well as the grandieur of retirement , a grandieur that great men may envy , but uncapable to obtain the felicity , as well as the safety , the quiet and the security ; made the more conformable by necessity and the gentle hand of god ; ( for some good end no doubt ) a retirement happily freed from the noise and business of the world , the bawlings , brawlings and yawlings , the bustle and ruffle of the barr and pulpit , the throng and crowd of vexatious turmoils and impertinent visits ; ( a happiness not 'till now enjoyed , ) to be buried alive , to be buried and yet live , in hopes of a joyful arising ; to be buried safe from the poynant malice of enemies , ( for envy ceases in the grave , and they are malicious to purpose , that envy him this poor-play of — hide and seek — and bo-peep : ) and yet alive and brisk still with some friends , and with his best friend on earth — his loyal consort ; the happy mother of ten lusty children , and seven alive still , blessed be god ; heirs enough for his estate , and estate enough for his heirs , if the bishop do not make them poor enough — ( god knows ; ) at least — it is to be fear'd — nobleness of nature is not every body's portion ; but god help , however ; for the defendant ( if he be wise ) will never beggar himself and his family , to build cathedrals for singing-boys — be as cunning as they can — and they are subtle — very subtle — ay — so they are — and so might others too , with one quarter of the power they have in their hands ; — fight on macduff , and let him fall that first says , hold ! — enough . before ( it came to ) extremity , has not the defendant studied peace and pursued it , once , twice , thrice — if possible — and as much as in him lies , ( as you will hear anon ) by all the methods and ways of meekness and submission , as far as is consistant with a man of honour ? and have they not been inexorable , and like the meridian-shadows ( of men running north-ward ) which flys the faster , the faster they are pursued ? are they not inexorable to any terms , but what is worse than death , and ill becomes a gentleman or a christian ? has the defendant lived fifty years in the world , and travell'd half the globe of the universe , with all the advantages of an ingenuous education , in studying men and books , and is he yet to seek to know such men ? he knows what is in man ; knows what is in men flush'd with power and interest , and flesh'd with success and revenge . let them be beaten with their own rod , which with such industry , joy , interest , friends , power , glory , and combination they have so eagerly contriv'd : — the scabbard's thrown away — come on macduff , and coward he that first says — hold ! — enough . honesty is the best policy , and so ( machiavellians ) will find ( to their cost ) in time ; and christianity is the greatest wisdom ; and persecution , tyranny , oppression , and extortion the greatest folly in the world ! but , oh ye fools ! when will ye be wise ? saith solomon , when will ye be good ? never , never , some men will never be good ( but like a spaniel ) 'till they be beaten to 't , by ( the mistress of fools ) woful experience , and too late . a little honesty and christianity is soon and easily attained unto ; and will do wonders in government , and with ease ; whereas , ( as a lyar had need have a good memory , and yet is often put to his trumps ) a machiavellian , with all his quirks , and shams , and subornings , and tricks , is as very a fool as pope alexander the th , and his son caesar borgias , ( to whom ( the florentine ) machiavel , was both secretary and tutor in that black-art , called ( maachiavellian ) policy ) both of them coming to an ill end and a violent death , falling into the very pit they digg'd for others , and poyson'd with the very druggs they prepar'd for the italian-princes , by the just judgment of the righteous god — that sits in heaven , and laughs ( the atheist ) to scorn — yea — the lord shall have them in derision . and let some men triumph , crow , and insult , at the victory they have got by a little-tool , and especially ( that same special-jury ) and glory that they have silenc'd him ( the sin and shame lye at their door ) stopping his mouth , because of cheap-marriages without a license ; and he shall be in his church of all-saints the next lord's day , ( god willing ) and so on , let them do their worst . no man that falls by great power , — can ( possibly ) fall more gently — nor for less offences . there 's nothing sworn against him , nor laid to his charge , for which any good man , or man of honour has cause to blush , and be-ruby his cheeks . the bishop first offends in sending an unwarrantable sequestration , ( there 's the origine ; ) and for this occasion , the defendant suffers and pays l. there 's the consequence of that origine , or original sin. as soon as the judg had filled his belly , he return'd to the bench , and some thought to catch the defendant , but the bird was flown . the verdict was for the plantiff , damage l . and so they said all , being agreed upon the business , and their fore-man ( sir andrew jenner ) their learned speaker , or spokes-man . thus ended this famous trial , of which when i have made some observations ; ( for the torys have not got all the observator's on their side : ) i will give you an account of that other ecclesiastical-engine to batter the defendant , by affidavits sworn by six ecclesiastical lay-persons called proctors of doctor's-commons : ( ay , there , there the mischiefs ( against the naked-truth ) are hatch'd ; they act for life , at least , for a dirty livelyhood , which seems to stand on tip-toe , tottering , and just upon the goe . ) and therefore they would wire-draw and hook in westminster-hall ( base indignity ! ) to prop up their rotten and tottering frame , by craving ( forsooth ! ) from thence aid , in a writ called supplicavit . but first , let us not over-pass this signal trial without some remarks , or observations . observations made ( by an unknown hand ) upon the foregoing trial . first , we will observe the observations that have been already made of this noisy trial by the tory pamphleteers . the tory observator is wiser than to trouble himself with disquieting mr. hickeringill , or to abuse himself by nicknaming others , whether out of respect or sense of honour , or out of fear of mr. hickeringill's smarter pen , ( that never scratches but when defendant ) we will not determine . but thompson and heraclitus — how now ? thompson and heraclitus ! will any man of honour stoop so low to take notice of such contemptible wretches ? wretches below all scorn ! wretches that would have no name but for the ills they do . for they ( like erostratus ) are ambitious of a name , by committing unheard-of villanies , tho they thereby ruine themselves , and an ( once stately ) church . and ( without offence be it spoken ) it is a condescension ( meritorious ) for any man to debase himself so much as to take notice of such despicable and forlorn bravo's , ( the objects of every honourable and honest man's contempt ) any otherwise , or with any other design than ( those charitable visits made to the jail , when common robbers and murtherers are condemn'd to the gallows ) to enquire ( either ) after goods ( by them ) stollen ; or , by shewing them the evil of their ways , bring the condemn'd villains to repentance , before they be hang'd . which act of charity , humility , and bountiful condescension , i ( now ) piously take upon me , by ( thus ) observing their observations . ( nay , the tories shall not have all the observators on their side , the whigs shall have some ; for ( to tell you the naked truth on 't ) the politick and pious tories have bereft me of better employment , and very cunningly have given me leisure to ( do little else but ) observe their motions . god reward them according to their piety , and their works , and let them fall into the pit that with such combined interest ( cunning and power ) so industriously they have digg'd . and first for thompson , so vile a moth , that he is too much honour'd to be crush'd with the blunt end of my pen. but i use him here , as he will be used when he comes ( amongst other ( condemn'd ) murtherers and assassinates of mens lives and reputations ) at tyburn , ( namely ) — to tie up and halter the greatest rogue first . fogh ! i have done with him for ever ; now ( the very first time ) i come near him , no rotten carcase or jakes comes nigh him for a scent ; he stinks above ground — most abominably and nauseously , in the nostrils of all that have not lost their senses . his rogueship being very ignorant , and also such a bold , daring , impudent man , for sending some heads of — lies — in his printed papers — contrary to law ; whence it will appear , that he is concerned in the plot — the horrid plot against mr. hickeringill's righteous name and reputation , — belying him all the kingdom over , as a man convict of perjury , and so assassinates his honour and reputation ; the only answer ( yet ) made ( in defence of the extortions and oppressions so impudently continued to this day in ecclesiastical courts , in defiance of the statutes of this realm , and contrary ) to the naked truth . i am not able to endure the carrion any longer , and therefore i leave him to the justice of the nation , and to mr. hickeringill's swinging action against him , and his pretty consort ; and except he hide his hated head for ever , he will be punish'd for that dangerous and damnable lie and slander against the righteous name and reputation of mr. hickeringill , in saying , he was convict of perjury . nay , they would convict mr. hickeringill of somewhat worse than perjury , ( i fear ) if they could get any man-catchers , or teagues o divelly , into his company : nay , there was one mortlack , a black-smith of colchester , that asking a cunning-lawyer's advice , what he should swear against mr. hickeringill ? breath-seller replied , — canst thou not swear treason against him ? or , that he is a common drunkard , or a common whoremaster , or a common swearer ? treason ? quoth mortlack yes i can ; in what ? ( replied petty-fogger ) in words or deeds ? mortlack answer'd , in words , treasonable words . but crafty replied , how long ago ? how long is it since you can prove you were in his company ? and in what place ? mortlack answer'd , that he heard the words spoken in the king's high-way , near dilbridge , about four months before that time , ( for he could not prove that ever he was in mr. hickeringill's company except that time , when there were also above twenty people more . whereupon quoth crafty , speak no more then of treasonable words , for you will be hang'd for concealing treason thus long ; but what say you to the other ? mortlack answered , it is too apparent to all that know mr. hickeringill , that he is no common drunkard , nor common whoremaster , but — ( he took a great oath upon it , saying , ) i will swear that he is a common swearer , and that never a word comes out of his mouth , but an oath comes out . and he was as good as his word , and got two more to swear ( the same ) along with him , both of which have with tears ( since ) and on their bended knees , begg'd mr. hickeringill's pardon , ( that 's more than thompson hath done ) and he frankly and generously did forgive them , and they live in colchester to this day ; but mortlack is fled for it ever since . for by the craft of sir j. s. before sir mundiford bramston ( as master in chancery ) the villains swore to articles , whereupon a supplicavit ( this doctors common's supplicavit is not the first , nor the first supplicavit devis'd against him by that root of bitterness and revenge , sir j. s. ) was granted against him , and bound he was in chancery , in l. the principal , and l. the manucaptors ; and thus was he put to some little trouble and charge . and mr. hickeringill stands ( to this day ) in chancery ( upon record ) a common-swearer , &c. and yet he never swore so much as one rash oath in his life . what will not malice and man-catchers swear ? but none that knows mr. hickeringill believes them , but knows they are perjur'd villains , and ( like this thompson , or parson thompson of colch — as like his name-sake nat — as one devil to another ) the scum of mankind , and so black in the mouth with continual lies and slanders , ( both of them ) and especially against mr. hickeringill , that no recording ink can paint their smutty features dismal or black enough , they are so hellish and imp●like , where i leave them , to discourse with party-per-pale , half fool , half knave ; half-fool , or jester , — and half-knave in earnest , heraclitus ; what observation does he make of this famous trial ? busy heraclitus num. . treating of this affair ( this ishmael's hand must be against every body , is it not meet that every man's hand should be against this privy and masquerade - assassinate of men's reputation ? saying , he ( hick — forsooth ! ) wishes by this time he had made use of an abler counsellor . no doubt , tricks and niceties in law , are best defeated by men accustom'd to such querks and tricks , the disguize of truth , and the defeat of many an honest cause . these quirks ( the rabble that use them ) are useless in the vnited provinces , where every man pleads his own cause ; of which the same sun that views the first process , sees the end and determination before it sleeps in the ocean . whereas we labour with our nice pleadings , quirks and tricks , writs of errors , pleas , rejoynders and demurrers eternally . a man was indicted — quia furatus est equum , because he stole a horse , ( in holland he had dy'd for it ) but with us the indictment was quash'd for lack of form , there wanted ( forsooth the word ) felonicè ; and therefore ill . . ass . . a man was indicted that he was communis latro , a common thief , and the indictment was held vicious , because too general — never coming on to the particular proof . a man murder'd another , but the indictment ( by the clerks oversight , or worse , was only interfecit ) and was quash'd for want of the word murdravit . thousands of instances might be given of pretty quirks and niceties ( that are now made such essential parts of the law ) that he is accounted the man of law , that is most nimble at them , to take a cause with a — why not ; tick-tack ; as if some design had been to make the law ( like sives and cullenders ) full of holes for the nonce . but , some may say then — what shall become of the vermine , the locusts and the catterpillars , that ( like those plagues of egypt ) eat up evary green thing in the land ? how now ? is this good behaviour ? is sampson bound ? or bound with wit hs of smal cords , made on purpose to be broken ? explain your self , who do you mean by the vermine , the locusts and the caterpillars , that eat up every green thing in the land , and is the great plague-sore thereof ? who do you mean ? sir. you , that are so blunt and such a plain dealer , do you mean those throngs about temple-bar , and chancery-lane ? those crouds of pen and inkhorns ? that a man can scarce stir there without being justled or run down by them or their coaches ? speak out , who do you mean by ? the vermine of the land , the locusts , and the caterpillars ? why then , really , truly , and plainly , i call those locusts , and caterpillars , and vermine , that live on the sweat of other men's brows , and of the sweet labour and industry of the painful husbandman , and country-man , who ( if they were not fools ) would agree their quarrels over a good fire , and a pot of ale , by the men of their neighbourhood , ( for it must come to that at last , and why not as well at first ? ) before the estate be wasted , time consum'd , with danceing attendance to vermine . but what shall the locusts and caterpillars do ? ask mr. wilson , who tells you in his description of the new plantation , called carolina , that there is good air , room enough for the locusts and caterpillars , those unprofitable insects and devourers . room enough for the he 's and she 's , let them go there and work and engender ; why should not spiders spin ? and yet ( with heraclitus his good leave ) the defendant did ( if it were worth the mentioning ) ( in his pleading this cause ) this tick-tack which might as well have been kept secret , but that heraclitus will not be pleased without it : for the declaration is only un'prelat . not un'magnat . and though the plantiff does declare as episcop-lond . and un'prelat , yet ( said the defendant , ) it does not appear ( by the declaration , ) that the plantiff is un'magnat , and therefore not within the statute . for the defendant said further , that he had consulted the records of those times , whereby the meaning of the words ( bishop and prelate ) in those days , is best cleared ; and does not find that ever by prelates or bishops is meant magnates , or le grantz , or le seignieurs — and therefore scandalum praelatorum , nor scandalum episcoporum , can possibly by that statute be meant scandalum magnatum . . edw. . the proceedings and judgment of death against sir william de thorp , ( chief justice ) for bribery , and brought into parliament , which the king caused to be read overtment devent les grantz de parlement &c. openly before the great men — coram magnatibus , that could not be the bishops , abbots , priors , nor prelates — for they were ( always withdrawn ) in those days , out of the house of lords — in judgments or inquest upon life and death , as this was , — for the chief justice was hang'd for his bribery : ( right and good reason , — cave , cave . ) . edw. . sir john de lee , steward of the king's house , was charged in parliament for several misdemeanors — et apres manger vindrent les prelats , duc's , counts , &c. after dinner came the prelates , dukes , counts , &c. here ( being but a misdemeanor ) the prelates were present , it not being in a question of life or death . . edw. . alice perrers was accused for breach of an ordinance , ( so is the record , but it was really a statute , which in those days was called an ordinance ) fait venir devant ' les prelats , & les seignieurs du parlement — which also was not in a question of blood , and therefore the prelates are nam'd , as well as the magnates ; or les seigneurs . many instances of this nature may be given , wherein prelates were never signified by the words , magnates , le grants , or le seignieurs , or peers : for they are tried ( as all men ought to be by magna charta ) per pares , by their peers or equals ; and being tried by their peers , ( that is ) commoners , they therefore are commoners , not peers of the realm , as the other magnates , le seignieurs , and le grantz — are . and therefore tho the bishop of london be magnas , as he is a privy-councellor , and a great officer of the realm ; yet the declaration not mentioning any such thing , the defendant urg'd that it was deficient : but the judg over-rul'd him therein . yet . edw. . roger of wigmore , cousin and heir of roger mortimer , earl of march , desires that the attainder made . edw. . against the said mortimer , might be examin'd : et dont le dit seignieur le roy vous charge counts , barons , les piers de son royalme , &c. the lord the king charged the counts , barons , and peers of his realm , to examine the said attainder , and give righteous judgment . but if the prelates were meant by counts , barons and peers , then they also were to examine the attainder by that command of the king : but they had nothing to do with attainders , it being against their own canon-law , and oath of canonical obedience , as they afterwards declared in another case , to be seen in the rolls of parliament . . edw. . in a parliament called for breach of the peace of the kingdom , away went the prelates out of the parliament , saying , what had they to do with such matters ? et les dits counts , borones , & autres grants , per eus mesmes — and the counts , barons , and other great men , went by themselves , &c. to consult , &c. so in the same parliament , upon judgment given against sir john grey , for laying his hand on his sword in the king's presence , for which he was question'd for his life , ( no bishops nor prelates being there therefore ) yet the record says , — le roy charge touts le countes , barons , & autre grantz — the king charges all the counts , barons , and other great-men , to consult , &c. and then he must charge the prelates too , if he charged all the great men , if the prelates be magnates , or les grantz — which could not be in a question of blood. 't is true , the bishops are a kind of barons , and so were the abbots and priors , by virtue of the baronies bestowed upon them by the charity or blind devotion ( or for what other reason ) by william the conqueror , &c. who divided his conquests all over england into knights-fees ; and of several knights-fees ( laid together ) he made baronies : and some of these baronies the lay-men got , but the clergy ( in the scuffle and scramble put in ( never fear it ) for a share ) and got proportionably , and more ; some lord-bishops got , and some lord-abbots got , and some priors . by virtue of which baronies they had votes and places in the house of lords . but one house being not able to hold so many lords , the king divides his baronies into majores & minores ; the minors he tript off , but the bishops , abbots , and priors held it fast till hen. . and then the lord-abots and priors tripp'd off , ( this was a sore shock to the prelacy ) and only the bishops ( of all the prelates in r. . ) hold it to this day . and who parliaments ( as at bury st. edmonds , and also as aforesaid . edw. . ) have been held without the prelates ; and tho it is declared ( before the dissolution of the monasteries , the major part of the prelates ) in . hen. . in keilway's reports , p. . dr. standishes case . les justices de soi ent que nostre seigneur le roy poit asser bien tener son parlement per luy , & ses temporal seignieurs , & per ses commons tout sans les spirituals seignieurs : that our lord the king may well hold his parliament by himself , and his temporal lords , and by his commons , without the spiritual lords , &c. yet ( by virtue of their baronies ) they have right to sit in the house of peers , tho their brethren-prelates ( abbots and priors ) be outed , and the privilege of sitting in the house of lords does not now continue ( de facto ) to those gentlemen that now enjoy those baronies which the abbots had , with all their privileges and immunities , &c. of which privileges and immunities , &c. this was one , to sit in the house of peers , and granted and regranted , in the same manner the abbots , &c. held these baronies . but i do not know de jure , how far this immunity does extend , nor is it my province to argue it , tho i am possessed of the barony of the priory of wickes in essex , to me and my heirs , with all the immunities , &c. and therefore one would think i might claim the privilege of a prelate , out of that old statute , r. . that hath caused all this debate and debait . nay , all clergy-men ( that are rectors ) are prelates ; so lyndwood , a doctors-commons official , in his provincials . con. otho . sacer ordo . verb. illiteratos . quae ignonantia multò magis detestanda esset in episcopo , seu majori prelato . if there was a major prelate , then there was a minor prelate ; little men are men , tho little . — a hundred instances i could give , that all clergy-men that are rectors are prelates . now if the speaking against any prelate who is not magnas , ( nor so mentioned in the declaration , ( as here it is not mentioned that the plantiff is magnas ) and if in the language and dialect of those times , the word bishops does not imply magnates , or les grants , ) then surely all prelates , and all that have the fee-simple of those lands and baronies , granted to the king , and his heirs and assigns , by act of parliament , and given and regranted to others , together with all the immunities and privileges that the abbots had and enjoyed by virtue of those lands and baronies , &c. ought to have the benefit of this statute of scandal . magnat . quâ prelat . why they should not enjoy the privilege of prelates in that act of r. . of scandal . magnat . and all other privileges that ever the abbots enjoyed by virtue of their lands and baronies , being meer temporals , ( not gospel nor spiritual priviledges ) i cannot imagine , if the bishops do enjoy these benefits — quâ prelati , or quâ barones . howsoever the other priviledg of sitting in the house of lords , may be lost , for the long intervall or vacation of not being call'd thither ( time out of mind of man ) by the king 's writ , be lost , or — for what other reason , it is not needful here to discuss . for , if the bishops sit not in the house of lords purely ex gratia regis , but quâ barones , by reason of their baronies , then è fortiori , much more may those gentlemen that have the abbot's baronies , and other prelate's baronies , claim the old privileges belonging to their baronies , and for which and other immunities they have an act of parliament to them and their heirs : since bishops have not so firm a tenure of their baronies , and the privileges , temporalities , and immunities thereunto belonging , because they hold them ex gratiâ regis , and for contempt may lawfully be forfeited , and seized into the king's hands : but the baronies of us that hold them in fee-simple , and by act of parliament , ( with the immunities and privileges anciently belonging to the abbot-prelates , and prior-prelates ) cannot for such contempt , ad libitum regis , be so forfeited or seized . nay , since many rectors in england have baronies annex'd to their rectories , and their parsonage-house is the manor-house , where court barons are kept to this day , and the tenants do their homage and fealty , and they are really and truly prelates , i see no reason in law or equity , but they may have the benefit of this statute of rich. . of scandal . magnat . if it pertain to prelates , quâ prelati . and then every little rector may bring his action upon this statute , qui tam , &c. for contempt of his clergy-ship , and prelateship ; and then ( hey day ! ) we shall have a little pope in every parish , and a spiritual hogen mogen in every rectory . — hey ! then up go we ; and then thompson and heraclitus look to 't , we 'll pay you off for your nick-names , you had better have been tongue-ty'd . and none can give a reason , why this defendant should not also have the privilege of a prelate , which his predecessors had , ( the abbots of wicks ) when this statute was made , whose successor is this defendant in the barony , and to him and his heirs for ever . nay , really , thompson and heraclitus , i believe the defendant is in earnest , since so much money as l. may be ceined out of old statutes ; there are london juries , and middlesex juries , as well as essex juries — look to 't . 't is readily granted , that there is a disserence betwixt the bishop and the defendant , as to riches , &c. but what then ? as a prelate , a poor prelate has as much right to his priviledges as the rich , and more need of it a great deal : it is hard to pull off hairs from the bald crown ; or , to rob the spittle ; but there is no charity , nor reason , to take the few hairs from the bald crown to make a wigg on , for him that has a good head of hair of his own , and needs no wigg , nor such superfluous additaments . i grant , indeed , bishops are prelats and barons too : so is the defendant a little one ; and more than so , the defendant's barony cannot be seized into the king's hands , as the bishop's may , for contempt ; therefore i called the bishops , a sort or kind of barons . not such barons as the temporal lords , who cannot forfeit them to the king , nor the king cannot seize them for contempt , as aforesaid ; therefore there is a vast difference betwixt a baron who is a peer of the realm , and a spiritual baron ; the one is magnas natus , born a peer , and sits in the house of lords , as his birth-right and inheritance ; the other is greatus , and sits ex gratiâ regis , and may , upon the king's displeasure , or contempt , lose his seat near the wool-packs , and his baronies and temporalities forfeited into the king's hands . but , what non-sence is it for heraclitus to prate , numb . . jest . says , they ( the whiggs ) clamour and say , the dammages are excessive : ( honestly said for a fool or jester ) why so ? ( says earnest , or sober-sides ) i think , and so must every man that thinks at all , ( in one doctor 's opinion he might have said ) 't is a very cheap penny-worth to that which the honest man ( honest man ! quoth he ! and a proctor's boy ? good sence , and tory-like ) had , that pull'd off hick's ( what ? plain hick — still ? no dread of the . rich. ? will men never take warning , till they be maul'd l. thick ? sure , the fellow thinks the defendant cannot get as good a jury in london , or middlesex , as was lately in essex . hicks — ) hat ; except the privileges of the saintship be as great as those of the peerage . peerage ! the wise fellow thinks , that bishops are peers , and thinks there 's no difference betwixt words ( that are but wind ) and blows , or assault and batteries , and challengings to fight . the bishop is great , who denies it ? but 't is not so long ago since the defendant being then ( as now , ( for he is no changling ) rector of all-saints ; and cornet compton quartering in colchester , i doubt the defendant being an old captain , by commission from two kings , of sweden and portugal , by sea and by land , would not have thought himself obliged , in good manners , to give him the wall ; except he had , as sir george did , first told of his pedigree ; then ( indeed ) then , i grant . but not a word of this should have been said , but that they come so with their comparisons , when the defendant had told them , ( in the first words of the naked truth , second part ) that he honoured bishops , but did not idolize them ; could say — my lord , but — not — my god. but these hireling pamphletiers do so deify them , that they are netled , when men do not fall down and worship the — the distance is great ! — none envies his lordships greatness ; the distance is great , the king made it so great as it is , and can as easily make the distance less when he list . but enough of this folly , ( for such i acknowledg it ) but — only that the wise man bids us answer a fool according to his folly , ( that is ) beat the fool at his own weapon . . edw. . the two houses join , counts , barons & communes , and represent to the king , how the government of the kingdom had been a long time in the hands of the clergy , ( do you see ? an old complaint ; they were ( papists indeed , but ) true born englishmen , and could not tell how to buckle to a mitre or lawn-sleeves ; or that westminster-hall should truckle to doctor's-commons , ( a great indignity , and a shameful ! ) purent grant mischiefs & dammages sont avenoz , &c. for the great mischiefs and damages that came thereby , &c. says the parliament-rolls . but notwithstanding all this , — the prelates baffled both king , lords , and commons , having their spiritual weapons eek't out with two temporal writs , — namely , — de heretico comburendo , — the other de excommunicato capiendo : — the former ( with much adoe ) is damn'd to perdition , for the flames it made in smithfield , and all the kingdom over : the other , de excommunicato capiendo , — is yet in force , and fills the jayls dayly with men excommunicated ; many about mony-matters , and fees , illegal-fees , and oppressions , extortions , as not paying the knave a groat , &c. for when the popish prelates could not burn any that stood in their way for a heretick , yet , as obstinate and contemptuous , they sent him to the divel , and then he and the chancellours , and the king's-bench , and the sheriffs , got the poor soul buryed alive in a jayl , till he dyed , or submitted , and swore future obedience to holy-church . seven years after this of . edw. . the prelates ( having got the whipping hand ) claw'd it away , and to stop men's mouths from muttering , got this statute , . ric. . . nay , ( they are as cunning to preserve their prelacy , as — ) for the holy scripture , christ and his apostles having declar'd an abhorrence of spiritual pride , and ecclesiastical tyranny and oppression , ( calling them greedy dogs , that can never have enough , and wolves in sheep's cloathing , not sparing the flock , but tearing , rending and devouring it ) it concern'd them to fly to force and temporal power for aid of their abominable hierarchy ; and the magistrate , ( in those days ) what for fear , and what for folly , what for preferment , or to keep preferment ( since there was no other way ) gave his assistance to the beast and the false prophet , ( caw me and i 'le caw thee : ) rev. . , , . and he had power to give life unto the image of the beast , that the image of the beast , should both speak , and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast , should be killed . and he causeth all , both smal and great , rich and poor , free and bound , to receive a mark in their right hand , or in their foreheads : and that no man might buy or sell , save he that had the mark , or the name of the beast , or the number of his name . yet , in . ric. . eighteen years after this statute , — the house of commons forgot not that they were englishmen still , — and remonstrated to the king , complaining , — that he kept so many bishops about him in his court , and advanced them and their partakers . the king did not ( or the bishops would not suffer him to ) heed his subject's herein , — ( as aforesaid . ) and ( poor king ) it prov'd his ruine : for after he had lost the hearts of his people , it was not a few lawn sleeves , and flattering sycophants , and parasitical debaucht courtiers that could guard him from the unjust arms of hen. ; who had got the peoples hearts , only because the lawful king had lost them , by adhering to an effeminate debaucht crew . observe the machiavillian-skill of the ingineer's , what masters of art these ecclesiasticks ( divine and lay conjumbled ) have commenc'd in politicks , and all not worth to them one louse , after they have beat their heads together ; ( for a piece of cunning let them alone ! ) when advocats and counsellors , civilians or no civilians , lawyers and divines , clergy and lay , ana , the proctors and atturneys , the pulpit and the bar , ( breath-sellers all ) are in conjunction against a poor whig , to bring him to ruine , to trample on his conquer'd corps , to insult over his grave , to drink and cry — huzzah ! the enemy is fled , we are conquerors , and shall yet ( in spight of fate and the naked truth ) live and rule the roast , oppress and extort , make havock of of souls , bodies and estates , hang up or jayl their bodies , damn their souls , beggar their families , swallow and grow fat with their estates ; ( not so greedily there , have a care of choaking , ) come let us carowze and drench our selves , revell and be drunk with the tears of the widow and orphans ; huzzah ! — huzzah — ! incomparable epicures ! nay , i am told , from a very good hand , that the good bishop of london , in great piety and devotion , intends to dedicate ( this l. ) to st. paul , for a deodand ; and build up paul's ruins here in london with the defendant's l. ( as far as l. will go ) oh! most exemplary and episcopal zeal ! worthy his great soul and noble extract , and fit to be chronicled to all posterity . this heroick charity shall be writ upon his tomb , where he shall lie in paul's ( when 't is built ) nay , he shall lie ( as great men use to lie ) in state , and his exequies adorn'd with the magnificence of this grand exploit , celebrated in heroick verse , answerable to it and his own grandieur : i am just now ( before my fancy cool ) writing his epitaph , to be ready for him ; we are all mortal . but yet , the greatest glory of this atchievement , does belong to inch-board harris , that small heroe must come in to the meeter and merits , the one half of the l. he earn'd it dear , and swore hard for it , he has more right to it than any man alive , except the jury-men ; for the judg ( upon the whole matter , with some grains of allowance to humane frailty and temptation ) was there or thereabouts , at least , he was the best of them ; a judg swears to have no respect of persons in judgment , ( oh hard ! hard ! ) and therefore , i say , though the glory of the action , and the honour of the foyl , shall be given to the precious jury-men alone , ( for they only did the business , and the most that the counsel said to the matter , except railing and ribaldry , against the defendant , was not very pertinent to the declaration ) for want of matter in it , no doubt : yet the whole profit of the verdict does really and truly belong to harris ; he gag'd his poor soul for it , let him have it ; i say , 't is more than judas got ; he has my vote for it , and that signifies more thereunto than all the votes of all the men in the world besides ; for if i say — no — he never gets a penny of it , nor all the prelates in christendom on this side the alpes . therefore do not blaspheme st. peter nor st. paul , by thinking to wheedle them into the contract ; for they were monyless when alive , and have less need of l. now they are dead . god tells us he hates robbery for a burnt-offering ; and if paul's will not be built , or go on but slowly , god knows , ( there 's my s. buried ( already ) i wish i had it in my pocket again , for this trick , the fool and his mony should not be so soon parted to help to build a cathedral , whose walls must be cemented with the briny tears of the widow and orphans ; and the noise of the singing-men and singing-boys drowned with the groans , cries and howlings of men distressed and jailed by a bishop ; — for his great honour another b — ( this should not have been here inserted , for it is part of an epitaph belike . ) but i 'le divert my reader , and recreate my heavy fancy , from meditating on the doleful cruelties , and tragical adventures of ecclesiastical policy . ( oh! wo ! wo ! and alas ! that ever a bishop and his clerks should be so stony-hearted ) : i 'le chear you though , ( and my self too , and no more than needs , in this confinement and retirement ) with musing on those mischievous rocks ( near the isle of silly , at the lands-end of england , so fatal to mariners , and called ( i am in earnest indeed ) by sea-men , time out of mind of man to the contrary ) the bishop and his clerks . in a dialogue betwixt bo-peep and tory . bo-peep . those fatal rocks ( in sea ) that stand near th' isle of silly , nigh the land , ( by marriners so shun'd and blam'd ) the bishop and his clerks are nam'd . but , prethee ( tory ) tell me why they were so call'd ( for rythme ) truly ? tory. it was some whigg first call'd them so , meer scandalum magnat . i trow . bo. a whigg , ( dost say ? ) that is not so , whiggs were not born so long ago . to. not christned ( by that name ) you mean. bo. ever since abel whiggs have been , i must confess ; by tory-cain poor abel persecuted was and slain . no tory can this truth confute , for tory-cain did persecute , for difference in religion too , plagu'd the dissenter ; ( is 't so now ? ) for whiggish abel was so stout , he would not cringe , nor face about to east nor west , nor yet comply with th' act of vniformity which cain had made ; but did implore his makers mercy , and adore the best way that he could , and so as god did best approve on 't too ; not walking in the way of cain . but , his religion was his bane , for naked-truth abel was slain . but to the question keep and tell , why that name suits those rocks so well ? to. bishop and 's clerks ; call you rocks so ? ( harris ! come here , and swear once mo'e ! ) would you make bishops stony-hearted ? and have shook hands with grace and parted ? or , make them as of old ? when as bonner a friend to jaylors was ? when bishops by canonical oath were bound , ( it is the naked-troth ) by * canon-law to keep a jayl , or two , or sometimes three for fail . bo. hard hap ! when clerks are made of stone , and yet a name divine dares own . who e're ( alas ! ) does come them nigh , or , touch upon these rocks , they die : behold yond' wreck ( swims there ) i say , a stately ship it was this day , with flags and streamers in her trim , ( how pleasant 't was to see her swim ! ) how loftily she loum'd ! no sight e're pleas'd the eye with more delight . to gaze on her some ceas'd to eat , with joy forgetting work and meat . a bluff-tall-ship she was indeed , but her best quality was speed : no algerines ( swift though they be ) so nimbly cut the waves as she : no friggats e're crus't in the sea , but she could bring them to her lee at the long-run , both great and small she could with ease weather them all : no man of war did ever shame the naked-truth : ( that was her name ) : but now she 's split , and sunk to boot : ( that th' bishop and his clerks should do 't ! ) first , they torment us till we groan ! then jayle us ( next ) because we moan . have they not rockie hearts of stone ? to. why do these rocks so covert lie ? drown'd in their seas , hid from the eye , men lost , e're they these rocks espy ? bo. poor widows-sighs does them surround , and orphans tears , 'till they are drown'd . oh! but say some prelates , and high-flown churchmen , are not so stony-hearted , nor such tantivies , riding post to the devil , and driving men to heaven or hell , with switch and spur , as you think for ; but order is a good thing ; and since the naked-truth , and such books , taxes them so smartly , as if they were good for little but to be ' mended and reformed , the ecclesiastical fabrick may tumble down , ( god bless us ! ) robert grosthead , bishop of lincoln , tax't the shameful abominations of the court of rome , in his letters to the pope , that it hindered him from being canoniz'd and sainted , though he deserv'd a red letter better than any papist in the kalendar ; he was , if it be not ( contradictio in adjecto ) an honest papist ; and if the bishop and his clerks ( of rome ) had not been stony-hearted and impenetrable , beyond all amendment and polishing , neither luther , calvin , nor the protestant name had ever been heard of to this day . by grosthead's counsel rome had stood , had she not vow'd ne're to be good . rob. grosthead , the author of a great deal of naked-truth , flourish'd ( in spite of the pope ) anno ; and defines — heresy ( to be ) an opinion taken and chosen of a man 's own brain , contrary to holy scripture , openly maintained , and stifly defended . this is a true , good , and honest description of heresy ; and if so , for god's sake tell me true : if prelacy be contrary to scripture , contrary to the holy commands of christ and his apostles , in plain ( not doubtful ) words ; and if men stifly maintain it , and openly defend it , ( with actions , statutes , suspensions , silencings , curses , anathema's , excommunications and jails ) for god's sake who is the heretick now ? tell not me of statutes , they are void ipso facto as soon as made , if they be contrary to the statutes of god and christ , saith the lord coke , the oracle of the law , who ( tho a lawyer ) was not asham'd to be a christian . away with hypocrisy and cheat ! it shall , it shall tumble down , and fall on the heads , and crush all that shoulder it up , and endeavour to support it : it shall , i say ; i cannot tell you when , but it shall in due time ; they on whom this stone shall fall , it shall grind them to pouder . stay till the iniquity of the amorites be full , and till they have drunk brimmers full of the tears of widows and orphans , huzzah ! till they have fill'd the jails full of howlings , wo and lamentation , then down dagon , down to hell , for ever down — it is an infallible truth , that not only what is contrary to god , and the sence and meaning of his holy gospel , shall come to naught ; but also what is contrary to the sence and meaning , and desires of the greatest part of the nation , must tumble down , especially when it has no foundation of truth or honesty , but stands upon frail and rotten crotches : the next puff , or great wind , — ( stand clear ) for down it goes ; or the next calm , when the master-builders have time and leisure to view it , and find its danger , and its malignity , down it goes — the house of lords represent themselves , but the house of commons are the representatives of all the people in england : what therefore the generality of the people affect , that , i say , in time shall become a law. the honourable house of commons have not only struck at this statute , r. . which the prelates make such work with ; but the repeal thereof past the house with general approbation , and was committed , and sent up to the lords for their concurrence therein , it stopp'd there . — so much for this time . the words — called scandal . magnat . — which must cost this defendant l. are not actionable , taken in sensu conjuncto , ( as learned lawyers say ) nor can the innuendo in the third count lie , because he that drew the declaration forgot to mention the colloquium ; for if it had ( but ) been in , no doubt but harris would have swore it through and through : what an oversight was this ? therefore say some to the defendant , bring a writ of error next term , and quash it , and there 's an end of an outragious verdict , of a desperatee jury . or else motion for a new trial , because the declaration is , that the words were spoken before divers of the king's subjects , and but one little subject appeared . a writ of error ! where to be argued ? in the exchequer-chamber , before all the judges . this is a cunning way , more grist to the mill ; as good be in the clutches of an unmerciful prelate , as uninerciful breath-sellers . mr. chamberlin , mr. hollis , sir john elliot , &c. that were jailed for refusing to pay customs and ship-money , in charles the first 's time , because there was no law for the same , ( a clear case ) ; they took this course , and the judges ( ten of twelve ) gave the cause against them : they lost their fees , and their cause , and this defendant gets nothing but wit. exchequer chamber ! he knows a way worth two on 't ; he 'll keep himself and his estate out of all their clutches , keep in harbor till the storm blow over , let it bluster . and to jail the defendant , looks like an inhumanity like that of some creditors , that in cruelty arrest the dead corps , — a barbartty of no great credit to a bishop , ( that , if he do not propagate , at least should not by jails and shams hinder the propagation of the gospel ) especially not ( how bigg soever any man is ) at this time of day . money , a great deal of money will gadbury get , and more than ever the bishop will get by this affair ; for , flectere qui nequeant superos , acheronta movebunt . the horary questions will be , where the defendant's estate is ? where his lands ? where his goods ? where his moneys ? ( if any body could tell ; for i believe the defendant himself can scarcely tell that ) and lastly , where he himself is ? whether within a mile of an oak , or just under the bishop's nose ? and when all comes to all , the inquisitors will but throw good money after bad ; for the devil will cheat them , as he did madam cellier , both of the money and the sham-plot . and after all — the ass-trologer knows no more ( by all his intelligence with mercury and the moon ) where the defendant is , than i do ; perhaps not so well : nor ever shall , till the time come when truth is valued more than hypocrisy ; when innocence is a sufficient guard against power ; when gospel is preferr'd before an obsolete worm-eaten law , made in the days of popish prelacy ; then ( and not till then ) shall the defendant appear to their shame . and in the interim , make them know how deep and smartly a single pen can wound , when whetted and made sharp with truth , and edg'd by despair , through the inveterate malice ( but silly policy ) of unreasonable and wicked men : christo commonstratore non didicerunt , they never learnt this policy of their saviour . this method is like the policy of the late suborners , that would have wheedled the man into perjury , by telling him of two sorts of advancement ; if one would not , the other should ; if preferment , and money , and gold would not make him swear treason against — then he should be advanced to the gallows , and boo — should swear treason against him . wicked haman , ( that devillish privy-councellor to the king ahasuerus ) had experience of both these advancements ; first , to be a favourite ; and secondly and lastly , to the gallows prepared for mordecai . this brings to my mind a true story , and commonly known : there was a great man , but he was an atheist , but ( in pretence ) a papist ; and being sick on his death-bed , he called for two pictures , that he had provided against such a last extremity , and hung one on the one side of his bed , and the other on the other side . one was a picture of god almighty , ( you may know he was a papist by that ) the other was the picture of the devil , ( you may know he was an atheist by that ; ) in the first picture — this motto , — si tu non vis , ( if thou wilt not ) ; but in the devil's picture , on the other side his bed , this motto — iste rogitat , ( here 's one will. ) even so , beloved , like these two motto's , there is belike , as the suborners say , two sorts of advancement ; one by fair means , the other by foul : as if cicero himself , ( whose eloquence is meer canting , and a set , little pedagogical way of chanting words , ( by the silly ) admir'd for oratory above rhombus himself ) should say , if money and fair words will not make you a perjur'd villain , and a teague o divelly , then the gallows take thee , and the foul fiend . o the hypocrisy of some mens religion ! what have we to do with a devil in the likeness of samuel ? the white devil is the most devillish , the religious devil ; no man crosses himself , nor blesses himself from him , nor from the foul fiend ; when the suborner prays like a saint , and when this son of perdition , and devil incarnate , appears to the world in the likeness of a prophet , and yet has no god but his belly , no lechery like revenge , no food like man's blood , no recreation like issuing out excom . cap — and filling the jails , the royal seat of his soul being in his belly and midriff , the throne of the belly-god . let no man envy the gentleman his employment ; for if i had a dog that was such a biting , mischievous curr , and worry-sheep , i would hang him . look him in the mouth , do but see there , i told you his chaps were bloody , he has not lick'd his lips since he told a lie ; for his religion is meer cheat , as the king says ; his voice is jacob's voice , but his hands , his hands ( the bloody hands of this nimrod ) look you , gentlemen , his hands are the hands of esau . seal those cap — there ; are you sure they are all sent to the devil ? yes , ecce signum ! then pass them — fill the jails full — full — 't is done , one cries — the devil take them — ; the other cries — take them jailor ! — a glorious work ! sure the fool says in his heart , there is no god : no , the devil of hell is not so devillish an atheist : 't is the old fool , that wishes ( and lives as if ) there were no god. naturalists tell us of roots called the mandrakes , in proportion and parts like a man and woman , ( for like the palm-tree , there is difference of sexes , male and female of them , and these mandraks are never found in the earth alone , but male and female together lie , ( that 's more than some men do with their wives ) bedded together in the ground , from whence it cannot be eradicated and pluck'd up by any living creature , but it proves the death of that creature that does it : therefore they provide a dog , good for nothing else , as most sit for that office and employment , first digging about the mandrakes to facilitate the feat , and up come the mandrakes with a groan , and down falls the dog dead , dead , stark dead ; nay , no matter , 't is but a dog. compare we true devotion ( in the consciencious discharge of the duties of christianity ) and religion to be this mandrake , at which the persecuting nero's , dioclesian's , julian's , &c. the popish inquisition , the prelatical high-commission , with their anathema's , and their capias , and their constables , and jailors , and executioners , have long been plucking , tugging , and sweating , and enacting , to eradicate it , that rome might be made instead thereof , to plant their own inventions , conformable and uniformable ; to secure their lordly spiritual pride , tyranny , covetousness , and oppression , and ecclesiastical policies and subtilties , by capias's and curses , acts and writs against inoffensive people : let them alone with their employment , their bayliffs and bum's , their officers and apparitors , their commissioners and executioners , hangmen and jailors , and the rest of the black regiment ; let them alone , it will be the death of the dogs : and — how now ? — what am i going to write ? no near — ( as the seamen phrase it ) — starboard your helm , and keep your loof — no near — steddy your helm , — keep her thus — steddy — there . i must not say at present what i was going to say , and therefore i 'le take off my pen , and amuse my self with a welsh-man a while , one mr. sol. shaw , a man mr. hickeringill never saw nor heard of before , who from monmouth in wales , ( no worse place i assure you ) sent mr. hickeringill this following letter and lines , in a cover directed to mr. r. janeway , in queens-head-alley , london ; which for the honour of sir george jefferies , ( her own country ) i will make bold to print , ( if it be but to shew , that more welsh-men than sir george have been in love with mr. hickeringill . ) but ( besides ) in my judgment the reader , considering all circumstances , will think them worthy this lasting memorandum . for mr. richard janeway , in queens-head-alley in pater-noster-row , london . sir , the great distance between me and london , with a long discontinuance from the city , my acquaintance being now worn out , and having no correspondent , hath caused me to direct this unto you , being the printer of the naked-truth ; and though i am a stanger , i hope you will not take it amiss ; if you think it worth your pains , you may give it to mr. hickeringil in print ; and when i come to london , i will return you thanks . candlemass-day , feb. . / . your friend , sol. shawe . monmouth , candlemass-day , feb. . / . reverend sir , i have sent you , in the next page , some gratulatory lines upon the reading of your naked-truth , &c. i find your books , in these parts , to be like universal pills ; they have various operations , and work upon all bodies politick one way or other , by sweating , vomiting , purging , urin , &c. but generally the people take them as cordials , and digest them with a great deal of comfort ; for we are true britains in the west , and are glad to hear there is one wise man in the east ; we hope there are more . we are so yoaked with consistory collars , that our necks are worn bare , and our withers gauled ; and if we offer to winch , or draw back , we are presently pinch'd , and such goads run into our sides , that we are forced to go as they please , for they must needs go that the devil drives : and tho' we have but short pasture on our barren mountains , and lean livings in wales , that we can but just keep life and soul together , yet our fat task-master does so exact , that we can scarce keep skin and bones together ; we are so poor , we cannot creep ; we are so drained in our purses , that we are no way able to wage war with the beast . our trembling vicars , levite-like , conform to all , and issachar-like , bear any burdens that are laid upon their backs , and know not how to help themselves . and our poor church-wardens stand cap in hand to the worshipful mr. arch-deacon , the reverend doctor and commissary , and the sir reverence the register ; and are glad they can get off , and be dispatched , by paying of their mony , ( which is a parish charge , that grudg to give them allowance for their time : and if the church-warden offer to speak , the arch-deacon nods , and the commissary frowns , and the register mouths and rails , and calls them saucy , threatning them to march from court to court , and wait attendance upon his ar — that they are so tired in body and spirit , that they have no heart to their drudgery ; they had rather be of any office , ( scavengers to empty dung ) than to be church-wardens ; for they are forced to swear and forswear themselves , whether they will or no , for it is impossible for them to keep their oaths ; if they offer to speak , their mouths are stop'd with a canon bullet , a book of articles is given them , to present their peaceable neighbours by . the margin doth quote several canons which they cannot read , neither do they know when or where they were made : nay , they tell them of unwritten traditions , of customs , and ancient usages ; and frighten them with high words , and snap them up , saying , take the book , here is the guide you must go by , and present , or else you are forsworn . and when they make returns , which is writ by one or other of their proctors , for which they give a shilling , and subscribe , omnia bene ; they will not believe them , but tell them , the court is informed otherwise ; and put pusling questions to entangle them , and will not take in their presentments , till they have put in the names of some of their best parishioners , ( but they must not be quakers ) ; and thus the whole parish is set in a flame by these incendiaries ; and poor ignorant creatures , they cannot help it : if there be any dronish or debauched clergy-man that they complain of , they cannot be heard ; and they understand that some have been proved prophane in life , and common speaking , and heretical and popish in their publick preaching ; that the high arches do only check them , and continue them in their livings ; to the encouragement of debauchery , and the hazard of the precious souls of their hearers : but if there be but one pious and painful preacher , the whole inquiry is after him ; what doth that man do ? is he conformable in every point to the king 's ecclesiastical laws ? and if there be the lest iota or ceremony omitted at any time , he is presently suspended , ab officio & beneficio ; and thus the shepherd is smitten , and the flock scattered . sir , i have held you too long , i have been in the company of the clergy , where your books have been mentioned ; and some modest men have spoken , that there were many things too true : but the high hectors have run them down , and railed against your book and you , saying , they know not but you may be a jesuit , ( which they never said while you drudged for them ) : they say , that a pillory is more fit for you than a pulpit , and a rope than a cope : they say , e're long your mouth will be stopped , they will cut your gill , and then hicker where you will. they have silver and gold spurs , yours are but natural , and they will slash you ; they will pick out your eyes , and crow over you ; they will not leave a feather on your back , or a quill to make you a pen to scribble with ; they will cut your comb , and your stones too , and make a gelding of you , that you may only serve as a door-keeper for their nuns , &c. but i shall detain you no longer , but subscribe my self , sir , yours to honour and serve , sol. shawe . sir , your friends long to hear when the term will be over , and how it fares with you . so much for the prose , next follows the british muse , bred on pernassus , the penmenmaur . thy naked-truth ( brave hickeringil ) out-shines the glittering silver , and the golden shrines of great diana ; all her vanities are clearly seen by naked verities . this makes demetrius , and his crafty crew , with pursevants so hotly to pursue : for now their trade is likely to go down , they cry diana round about the town . the church , the church is come into disgrace : an uproar now is rais'd in every place . confusion is so great , they 'r in a smother ; some cry out one thing , some cry out another . the greatest part know not the reason , why they 'r met together to make hue and cry. o for a town clerk th' rabble to allay , and send th' assembly peaceably away ; for naked-truth robs not the church , but she discovers only her deformity , restoring her to primitiye beauty . and when a lawful convention of state , shall meet together , to take thy relate into their serious consult , 't will be found there 's nothing writ , but on a scripture-ground . they 'l see , that canon is not statute law , but only like a blazing wisp of straw , to scare the simple to conformity , against their conscience , law and liberty . it 's only hissing wild-fire that doth singe , to make fools unto ceremonies cringe . and by this means they will sind a just cause , to regulate such arbitrary laws : for king and parliament have not confirmed their canon laws , therefore they may be mended . except unto the romish church they fly , t' uphold confused babel-hierarchy . and this thy naked-truth doth shew as much , except they are resolved to be such . what tho' thy naked-truth by some be blamed ? yet naked-truth will never be ashamed . and what tho' thou ( like paul ) wert formerly , in commission by scribe and pharisee , to drudg for them , oppressing some with fines , that would not bow and stoop to their designs ! yet if thou now converted art , ' tic well ; thour't in the way to heaven , they to hell. and what tho' many of the saints do fear thou do'st dissemble ; because they do hear how thou did'st persecute the saints , and hale their persons innocent unto the jayl ! what tho' at present they be shy of thee ? yet thou proceeding in thy zeal to be a convert true , it will rejoice their hearts , that god hath raised thee to take their parts . and what tho' priests do wait by writ of cape ? yet by some basket thou shalt have escape . their ruffins sworn to take thy life away , by providence shall miss their hoped prey . tho' some may question , thinking that thou art , no true disciple from thy very heart ; yet when it shall be known what thou hast writ , and preached too , thou wilt be quite acquit . when by thy naked-truth the church hath ease , it will the brethren in all places please . but let me tell thee , mr. hickeringill , tho' many grave divines approve thy pill , prelats and proud priests say , thou hast no skill . the gout , the strangury , and such disease , may , by a velvet couch , receive some ease , and golden chariots rocking them doth please . a body full of humours , all can tell , disgusts that physick that will them expell ; because it makes them keek , and vomit up , their sweetest morsels , like a bitter cup. sick physick they don't like ( tho' that must cure ) ; this they resolved are not to endure . thou purgest head , the reins , and liver too , fluxeth the body , and makes such ado , that all their rottenness will be discovered : they like not this thy way to be recovered ; but will keep rather their distemper still , than purge and vomit thus to make them ill . diseases foul , physicians will conceal , and gross distempers they will not reveal : the credit is the patient's ; gain's their own ; this thou regardest not , but makes all known ; tho' they tormented are , and full of pain , yet they have riches , profits , honour , gain ; and they are courted too , have great retinues to wait on them , and they have great revenues : now this they love , and will not change their state , for all thy pamphlet-printing , and thy prate . they say , a mungrel-mountebank thou art , that mounts the stage , but hath no real art. thou runs from town to town to show thy feats , and vend thy mouldy drugs , which are but cheats thou railst against the cross , but dost purloin , picking men's pockets both of cross and coin. thou hast no licence to be thy defender , therefore against the law thou art offender . if this be true , there 's ground enough , i trow , by scandalum magnatum to o're-throw , and bring thee down upon thy bended knees , to ask forgiveness , and to pay thy fees. therefore the scribes do lay for thee their snares , and do consult to take thee unawares . the officers of doctors commons meet together often , and their heads do beat what course to take ; the learned chancellors , crafty civillians , foul-mouth'd registers , arch-deacons , surrogates are in a huff , the proctors and appariters do snuff : our wealth is gone , if we let this alone , we must with th' irish , cry , ohone , ohone . they all combine , and never will give out , until they have giv'n hickeringill the rout . their cobweb-canons , and their lime-twig-laws , thou valuest no more than rotten straws . thou fearest not their hollow pot-gun noise , being good for nothing but to fright the boys . they therefore now appeal , and crave the aid of statute-laws , to help them in their trade . look to thy self , they are resolv'd ( now in ) to lose the saddle , or the horse to win : they strive to make pilat and herod friends , and then the consistory have their ends. now velvet saddl's offer'd , with gold fringe , richly adorn'd with splendid trappeling ; and when the saddle's on their back , they 'l get a snaffel in their mouths with iron bit , except god give them grace , and better wit. for when they 'r mounted , they will spur them on , unto their own , and thy destruction . it is by this means they support their hope , to get thy neck into a hempen rope . ( the cross thou likest not , and will not have ) a gibbet's good enough for such a slave . if they can get the learned lawyers in to take their part , as they now do begin . this was the way they dealt with christ ( him kil'd ) and poor st. paul his back with stripes was fill'd . but it is hoped ( that will be forbidden ) ; for honest lawyers will not be priest-ridden : for they will show no mercy , switch and ride , till they have got unto the romish side . lawyers themselves at last will yoaked be , becoming traitors to their liberty : for if the statute do their canons draw , they 'll keep the king's liege-subjects in such aw , by raising up a spanish inquisition , bringing all down to ruin and perdition . they 'll set the mitre up above the crown , and bring all law , and all religion down . o the confusion that will follow then ! but i forbear , and will hold in my pen ; and so conclude with england's letany , defend us , lord , from french and popery , and god send thee a safe delivery . sol. shaw . we are commanded to — love the truth and peace , well put together ; for truth seldom meets peace without , tho it always makes peace within . truth seldom gets in this world external peace , but never misses internal and eternal peace . the word of truth , truth it self , our blessed saviour , and his apostles , never failed of inward peace of conscience , and joy in the holy-ghost , never fail'd neither of external ruffles , and war from without ; and therefore he said , he came not to send peace on earth , but a sword. it always was so from the beginning , is now , and ever shall be , that war should be betwixt the seed of the woman , and the seed of the serpent . but there can be no peace ( saith my god ) to the wicked ; neither peace external , internal , nor eternal . for truth is the essence of peace , the life and soul of peace ; it ceases to be peace , when truth is absent , and is meer war , confusion , and conspiracy . how i have studied the way of truth , let good men judg ; and how i have studied the way of peace , this following letter to henry bishop of london will evince . and not further to displease sir george jefferies , ( for i hate this vain jangling about words , and titles , and genealogies ) as it happens , ( the welsh knight will now be pleased , for ) the last letter sent from this defendant to the bishop was as smooth , docile , courtly , and alamode , as the best courtier of them all can write . and that the defendant ( absit invidia verbis ) has been as great a traveller as st. taphee , or as that great welsh-man and kill-cow hero , ( capt. jones himself ) that said , he had a priviledg or patent whereby he could lie by authority , ( wonderful preferment ! ) the welsh-man was proud on 't tho . the letter verbatim , thus : viz. to the reverend father in god , henry lord bishop of london , at london - house , in aldersgate-street . may it please your lordship , this is the second humble address that i have made to your lordship , that all differences , as well as the action of scandalum magnatum , brought against me by your lordship , may be amicably composed , before the utmost extremity be tried . if i had spoke the words modo & formâ , as they are laid in your declaration , i know not whether upon any submission . your lordship would find mercy enough to remit them . but , my lord , if you will vouchsafe me a hearing , with ( or without ) your own witness , or witnesses , i doubt not , but he or they will evidence my innocence , that i never spoke the words as they are laid , but without any interruption or intermission , in a continued discourse , i did explain , and explain , and express what horrid plot it was , which i said your lordship had a hand in , viz. against my righteous name and reputation in the barretry . and that those ungrateful words of — impudent , and ignorant , ( which are odious , if considered abstractly ) , had reference only to a discourse we had of a printed paper your lordship recommended to the clergy of essex in your last visitation , ( and amongst other things ) the observation of the canons of , by name disallowed by . car. . . which statute if your lordship knew not , i said , you were ignorant thereof ; or if you knew it , it was impudent to confront the said act of king and parliament , opposing your sence against theirs . all which , my lord , are not scandalous , taken together , nor against the statute , if true ; but the last words were very rashly and irreverently spoken , and i am so far from justifying the irreverence and indecency of the expressions , ( what provocation soever i might have ) that i will give your lordship what satisfaction your lordship shall reasonably require , with all humility and contrition . and i am the rather hopeful of the good success of this my humble submission , because ( i hope ) your lordship intended nothing else in bringing the action , but only to bring me to acknowledgment of the irreverence of the expressions , and not with a design to enrich your self by any money of mine , or undoing me and my family . yet , my lord , i doubt not but to make it appear ( if you will admit me ) to your lordship ) that the action against me is ill laid , and that you wlil certainly be non-suited , tho it be no policy to tell your lordship how and wherein at this time of day : however , it will approve me ingenuous towards your lordship , and that i do as industriously avoid a conquest , as well as all contest with your lordship , and that this submission proceeds from nobler principles than fear can suggest . but i have had so ill success in all my former applications to your lordship , that i have but little faith or hope in the success of this ; however nothing on my part shall be wanting to an accommodation . and since almighty god ( in mercy ) does not send a thunderbolt for every rash oath , or every irreverent word against his holy name ; your lordship , i faintly hope , will , after his example , find mercy and grace enough to remit , my lord , your lordship 's humble servant , edm. hickeringil . now let the reader judg , whether any soft concession or submissions can mollify this sort of men : flints will break upon a feather-bed ; but the bishop and his clerks ( near the isle of scilly ) are harder than flint , harder than the adamant , or the nether milstone . what advantage did sir francis pemberton , the lord chief justice , take at the defendant's ingenuous concessions ( which were more than needed ) in the case ? for there are not any words laid in the declaration , ( if never so true , and well-prov'd ) that are actionable , or within that statute , but are justifiable as they were spoken . and upon a writ of error , it will appear , ( for the oath of the judges is , to have no respect of persons in judgment ) that the words in all the three several counts are not actionable , nor scandalous ; and if so , then all this noise is like the shearing of hogs , a great cry , and a little wooll . to say , his lordship is very ignorant ; 't is too true , and if he be wise , he will confess it , as ( aforesaid ) st. paul did , and so socrates , and all the wise men ( before or since . ) agur or solomon , one of them , says , i am more brutish than any man , i have not the vnderstanding of a man. that danger is over ; the other is easy . for to say in sensu conjuncto , nay , in sensu diviso , that his lordship is a bold man : a souldier should be so , much more when he is a souldier of christ , much more when he mounts so high as to be a prelate , he had need be bold or daring , because of the many oppositions he must expect to encounter ; the apostle bids us — stand to our arms — and put on the whole armor of god , and stand , and when we have done all to stand . aristotle and all the philosophers make fortitude to be one of the four cardinal vertues ; ( i never heard it was scandalous before to say a man is bold and daring ; if it had on the contrary been said ) his lordship is fearful , a coward , and then ; then , then indeed the scandal . magnat . would be greatly scandalous , and within the statute ; and the action would well lie ; but not to say , his lordship is a bold daring man ; though you add a bold , daring , impudent man , for sending some heads of divinity in a printed paper contrary to law. is it not impudence to live in the practice and office episcopal , acting contrary to those methods , rules , and rubricks commanded in the statutes by king and parliament , and contrary to the common-prayer book , and act of uniformity ? yes , you must say — for a bishop cannot plead ignorance , nor frailty , for then his lordship would ( indeed be very ignorant . the defendant is the man that will prove , ( if any body have the face to deny it , and when time shall serve ) that there is a bishop within a mile of an oak , that has liv'd in the practice and office episcopal , acting contrary to those methods , rules , and rubricks , commanded in the statute by king and parliament , and common-prayer book , and act of uniformity . as for instance : he that confirms all comers , hand over head , without exception , without examination , without certificate , without knowing that they are baptiz'd or catechis'd ; is not this abominable , bold , daring , and impudent ? no great man ( if he be a subject ) is too great for the law , not too great to be corrected , reform'd , and better taught ; not too great for king and parliament , and their statutes : it is treason to deny this truth . what ? shall confirmation , ( of which the papists make a sacrament , and protestants make an ordinance and statute-law , ) be slubber'd over against the very design of it ? be slubber'd over , by confirming such as have neither sureties there , nor any witness , nor any god-father or god-mother , nor any minister , to testify that ever they were baptized ? o abominable ! what is bold , daring , and impudent , if this be not ? the canon law says , episcopus non potest statuere contra jura . lyndwood in con. oth. quid ad ven . v. corrigend . then dly ; for the bowings , noddings to the east , to the altar , to the wax-candles : is it not bold and daring , &c. to set up or countenance ceremonies , against the king's laws , and acts of uniformity , that were never of god's making , nor of the king and parliament's making ? is not this bold , daring , and abominably impudent ? then dly ; to recommend in a printed paper , canons for the clergy to observe , ( the , , and , of the canons of forty , ) when there never was any such in the world. and as for these lambeth canons , that ( to make all the republicks in the world our enemies ) falsely assert , that monarchy is jure divino , by the prime law of nature , and at large confuted in naked truth , d part. it was impudence in the clergy to make that first-of-the - lambeth-canons at first , and greater ignorance ; ( that a whole convocation should be no wiser , and yet so bold , daring , and impudent , as to impose upon the clergy and lay-people such vntruths and falshoods , as are in that first article of the constitutions of forty ) but strangely bold , daring , and impudent , for any man at this day to justify , vindicate , recommend , or defend them . the naked truth , d part , has confuted the vanity and ignorance of the convocation in that first article of their lambeth-canons , or constitutions of forty , against all contradiction , and beyond the skill of all the bishops and clergy of england to answer , at least hitherto ; they have slept quietly upon 't , and shall a single bishop , and one of the youngest sort too , revive them , and yet cannot justify the very first of them , which is not the worst of them neither , as is fully and particularly , and at large proved by the defendant in his former works , and condemn'd by the great wisdom of the nation in an ordinance . this 't is for men to stand on the utmost pinacle of the temple , and oversee and command all others , when a lower seat of the church would be as well or more easily supplied by them . what mischief to the church ( in all ages ) has it brought ? to make boy-cardinals , and boy-bishops , and novices , great before they be good , and to command wiser men than themselves . — like fresh-water , and courtier-captains of ships , and yet know not larboard from starboard , or how to right the helm , nay , perhaps can neither box nor ( so much as ) say their compass ; and yet these must be pilots and governors : 't is the ruin of the fleet. or to set up or prop a church of christ with the unsuitable and rotten props of cruelty and force ; as if christianity destroyed ( what it came to amend ) humanity ; or that to be a christian governor , is to be an inhumane devil , good for nothing but to run up and down , seeking whom he may devour , and worse than turks , jews , heathens , and infidels . it is this ecclesiastical policy , that has ruin'd the most resplendent empire of the christian world , ( spain ) not so terrible in her inexhaustible treasures , and indie-mines , as formerly in her warlike hands ; yet , how contemptible now ? how depopulated ? how despicable to all their neighbours , that were so formidable ( so latley ) to england , and the christian world ? how did king james court them ? and king charles the first humble himself , in hopes of an alliance with spain ? what cringing letters ( upon this hope ) were writ to his holiness ? what complements ( for i hope they were not in earnest ) to pope gregory the th , ( that wretch ) ? — sanctissime pater , beatitudinis vestrae literas , &c. nunquam tanto quo ferimur studio , nunquam tam arcto & tam indissolubili vinculo , ulli mortalium conjungi cuperemus , cujus odio religionem prosequeremur , &c. vt , sicut omnes unam individuam trinitatem , & unum christum crucifixum confitemur , in unam fidem coalescamus : quod ut assequamur , labores omnes atque vigilias , regnorum etiam atque vitae pericula parvi pendimus , &c. bless us ! what promises are here of propensity to rome , even to the hazard of life , kingdoms , and all , in devotion to his blessedness , ( so he is friled ) who will not stir a step from his infallibility ; one would think , that to have met him half way , had been devotion enough in all conscience , reason , scripture , law , or equity ; and for such mighty and wise kings and princes ( too you 'll say ) as were king james , and king charles the first , in so ( i hope ) never to be again imitated condescension and submission . it makes my heart ake to think on 't , or read the letters published at length by the indefatigable mr. rushworth , ( as before quoted ) and all the pope's demands signed by the king and prince , p. . of his historical collect. part . and all this for what ? for the spanish match . and now spain is glad to woo , instead of being wooed ; glad to court and address , instead of receiving addresses ; glad with gifts , pensions , ( even to the emptying of their inexhaustible treasure ) beggar themselves , and keep themselves poor and pennyless , to keep cart on wheels ; nay , and all will scarce do neither . and why ? and why ? they are depopulated by the inquisition , the severity and persecution according to law tho . and their trade is decayed , by reason of their foppish and numerous holy-days , or play-days ; families are needy and starved , because not suffered to work upon the six days , whereon god says , thou shalt labour . — that , were it not that the indian mines did supply them with merconary souldiers , ( poor refuge to trust unto , god knows ) they had given up the ghost long ago . and now — do not they gape for help , or some poor comfort , ( like men drawing on , or ) at the last gasp . nay , i my self know , ( scarce any man better ) that if there were war betwixt england and spain , ( which few men desire ) in this conjuncture ) jamaica , and the wind-ward islands alone , are ten men to one of all the natural spaniards in the indies ; and without the help of england , either in men or ships , money , or ammunition , could — i know what — but — i 'le reserve it to another season . i know on what score — the brave raleigh was sacrificed to gundamore's revenge , the spanish embassador . yet some politicians ( the scholars and disciples of nat. thomson , l'estrange , and heraclitus , ) think that the best way to keep a kingdom quiet , is to depopulate , jail them , beggar them , sham-plot them , — send them to the devil , and the jail ; spoil all trade , — discourage all adventures to sea — as if men were dogs , — and good for nothing but to be hang'd . and yet the wise man found it true , that oppression makes a wise man mad ; and with all his wisdom , and his politicks , he found ( too late ) that he was mated and bearded by his own servant , and he none of the best neither — jeroboam , who taking advantage of the people's discontent and murmurings , ( wanting only a head ) to relieve themselves , soon won eleven of the twelve tribes from the fool , that would listen to no advice , no address , but that of the young courtiers , — saying , — my father made your yoke heavy , but i will add to your yoke — : my father chastised you with whips , but i will chastise you with scorpions . — my little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins . cunning fool ! and subtil politician ! nay , the text says , — king. . . that the cause ( why the king hearkned not unto the people ) was from the lord — for his ruin — no wonder then the people grew stark mad ( cruelty and oppression had made them so mad ; and yet we do not read that rehoboam nor solomon opprest the people , but that they had a law on their side to vouch the whips and the scorpions too ; ( remember emson and dudley ! ) no wonder ( then ) the people run into rebellion to this day , v. . and run stark mad , and after a foolish religion too , but they that were made desperate by bad usage and cruelty ( it might be better with them , it could not be worse , they could but lose their lives , or their livings , lands , goods , and liberty ( more dear than life ) and therefore they publickly beat up their drums to a point of war — and makes the trumpets — sound — to horse — to horse — ver. . so when all israel saw that the king hearkned not unto them ; the people answered the king , ( to his head , and to his face , most irreverently ) saying — what portion have we in david ? neither have we inheritance in the son of jesse : to your tents , o israel ; now see to thy house — david . king. . , , , , . this 't is , to take no warning , no counsel , no advice , but of a sort of young , unexperienc'd , huffing , vapouring , sanguinary , blustering , bold daring coxcombs , and very ignorant ; the poor foolish king found it so ( to his cost ) good man. and what mischiefs have come to the church , to the nations , to christianity and christendom , by these rash sanguinary ways ? ( for every thing is most certainly best preserv'd , by the same means and methods by which it was made ; nor was the peace of christianity , nor its propagation , by might , nor by power , but by my spirit , saith the lord of hosts ) . the world shall have a large and particular account thereof , ( if mr. hickeringill live ) and can come at pen , ink , and paper ; of which his enemies ( with all their policies and subtilties ) have not had power enough , as yet , to deprive him . — but will , no doubt , drive on ( in the same road ) jehu-like — stand and see — what an old house some men have a mind to bring over their own heads — let them alone — you cannot advise them more mischievously to themselves , than to bid them follow their own advice , and consult only with their own malice , hatred , and revenge , cruelty and mischief — let them alone — and give them scope enough — go on . mr. hickeringill will also publickly make appear , ( if god spare him life , health , and liberty ) particularly and at large , how baneful it has been to the church , to make church-men and spiritual persons , vastly rich , and vastly powerful in temporals , ( so incongruous and incompatible with the apostles , the gospel , nay , christ himself , whose kingdom is not of this world ) and who never encouraged ( as some do ) but discouraged a worldly , proud , pragmatical tribe , overtopping clergie and lay , as much as their cathedrals overtop our houses : though they have endeavoured to shut him out of the pulpit a while , by the help of an old statute and a jury , they have not power to shut the doors of the press , ( god be thanked ) . luther and calvin's reformation of the idolatries and superstitions of rome , could never have spread ( far and wide ) if printing had not been invented : a few manuscripts might have been handled about , to some few particular persons , and learned men : but the tyranny prelatical , and oppressions of rome , in england , scotland , ireland , france , sweden , germany , denmark , holland , &c. could never ( without a miracle ) have been defeated . but by the printing-press , well employ'd , by able and learned pens , ( not scurrilous news-mongers ) . the three aforesaid crimes , are only personal and singular ; but there are other abominable crimes , of which the rest are guilty ; or , the most of them : is not this too scandalum magnatum ? of which many instances may be given ; some for example : namely , their connivance , confident and bold permission of all their under-officers in their ecclesiastical courts , ( if not their incouragement , assistance , and by their power and interest , a bold countenance ) of the daily , constant , publick , and impudent extortions and oppressions of the king's subjects , against the statutes of this realm , ( that limit the just fees ) in citations , probate of wills , administrations , &c. nay , against their own canon-law , ( concil . london . . edw. . anno dom. . ) and against their own table of fees : wretched , universal , and abominable impudence ! no name can be bad enough for this wilful and daring attempt , and contempt : what ? in god's name , are any prelats greater than the laws , or too big to be subject to the king's laws , or too great to be good ? god forbid . no wonder the whole tribe unite their power against the man , who has courage to charge those things home upon them , and whom they ( therefore ) hate , because he is , ( and few men more ) acquainted with their mysteries of iniquity , and knows how to charge them home : no wonder therefore they so much dread him , and do so unite their common-forces , and joint-interest , to ruin him , or jayl him , and so tie up his hands , as well as stop his mouth , by their ecclesiastical-canon-shot , of suspensions , silencings , excommunications , curses , and the like spiritual - artillery ; they act for life , ( as men that are drawing on ) . the silver-smiths cried out — great is diana of the ephesians : and yet to tell you true , this chast diana , whose image ( as the priests said ) came down from jupiter ; and the fools and bigots believed it , ( tooth and nail ) ; and the crafty priests , and the shrine-makers , and silver-smiths , ( false loons ! ) they knew that their great wealth depended upon the belief on 't : no wonder then that they cry , and whoop , and hallow , ( and the fools and bigots eccho'd to the cry which the shrine-makers made ) — great is diana of the ephesians ; and yet to tell you the naked-truth on 't , this chast diana was a common-huntress and common-strumpet and baggage , and as arrand a whore as any in rome . where is there a clergy-man , now-a-days , that will say , as of old , nolo episcopari — i will not bishop it , ( if i might ) or would gueld himself ( as some have done ) to make themselves uncapable of lawn-sleeves ? no , rather run and ride , with friends and relations , mony and flattery , cringing and foppery , to this miss , to that miss , mony and complyance against their consciences , by hook and by crook , have at it ; though good men find how hard it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven , much more difficult for a rich man to be a good church-man . for they that will be rich , ( tim. . . ) fall into temptation , and a snare , and into many foolish and hurtful lusts , which drown men ( yet they venture ) into destruction and perdition ; for the love of mony is the root of all evil , which while some coveted after , they have been seduced from the faith , and pierced themselves through with many sorrows . . rich. . the commons complain to the king , that the king kept so many bishops about him in his court , &c. and advanced them and their followers . ( an old complaint ) . when the devil tempted our blessed saviour , shewed him the kingdoms of the world , and the glory of them ; mat. . , , . then jesus said unto him — avoid — satan . but how many of our apostolical men , ( that vaunt themselves successors of the apostles ) do say , ( as the apostles did , acts . , . ) it is not meet , that we should leave the word of god and serve tables ? but we will give our selves continually to prayer , and to the ministry of the word . ay , ay , that 's a good work , the best work , and work enough , and the most proper work for apostolical men. we never read that any apostle turn'd action-driver , or promoter , surrounded with the black regiment of aparitors , proctors , hangmen , and jaylors . again , what bold daring impudence is it for them to keep courts , and not in the name and style of the king , contrary to . edw. . if it be in force ? a statute thought so necessary for the reformation , and so agreeable to the king's supremacy , in the wisdom of our ancestors , that one would wonder any good subject should scruple at its observance , much less live in contempt of it . it is a statute lawfully made , and never repealed . i know what coke says of it , and wherefore he durst say no more , during the tyranny of the high-commission ; which high-commission alone , kept off all punishment from the transgressors thereof : an extrajudicial judgment was ( once ) given against it . but where is the judg will declare against its force , and say in westminster-hall that it is repealed ? i grant , in queen mary's reign , all the statutes against the pope's supremacy are repealed , and her repeal , is repealed by queen elizabeth and king james . but the pope's supremacy continues in france , and yet process ecclesiastical might ( if the french king pleas'd ) run in his own name , and yet the pope and he continue very good friends , and the pope's supremacy continue : therefore the repealing the statutes made against the pope's supremacy , is no repeal of this statute ; there goes more than general words to repeal a law , and such a law. if this statute be repealed , why does not the judges so declare it ? if it be in force , no name is bad enough , nor any punishment on this side death , for the wilful and stubborn transgressors thereof : and 't is my wonder , that no men in england will put it home , to have it argued , that it may not continue a snare to the king's subjects ; for if that statute had not promis'd fair , and most learned counsellors at law of the same opinion , the contest with ecclesiastical courts had never been continued against them , for any thing , but only because of their vile extortions and oppressions , in high contempt of the law of god and man , braving his majesty's laws , his statutes , their own canon laws , their own table of fees , against justice , conscience , and equity ; what is impudence if this be not ? the king may seize their temporalities for contempt — no wonder they frisk , being so netled ; how they strive for life ? and for the words in the last count , more need not be said , than that it is ridiculous to insist upon them ; and therefore sir fran. withins said , they would take a verdict only for the words in the first count : for instead of damnable plot ( meaning ) the popish plot ; their own little single witness , harris , swore against them , namely , horrid plot against my righteous name and person : though that word person was false too , for instead of person , it was reputation , and so did all the witnesses agree ; never was such a cause carried , on the testimony of so infamous a man , a man of so bad memory , that could not tell his tale right twice together , nor twice the same way ; and therefore though he had not been proved infamous , ( by that noble earl ) yet he ought not to have been believed , against the testimony of so many substantial witnesses ( that if they were not crazy ) must needs have better memories than he . lastly , he swore for himself , and in revenge , and to get the defendant's benefice . and yet the precious jury would not only believe him against so many , but would not only find the words , that are not actionable in themselves ; as has been prov'd at large , and beyond all contradiction . for men , thus to ruin a man , and beggar him , to enrich a rich man that has enough already , ( one would think ) or , at least , as much as he deserves , is so like the parable , in sam. . , , , . of the ewe-lamb , ( the poor man's whole substance lost at a clap ) that the jury may thank god that they escape king david's threat : for david's anger , ( ver. . ) was greatly kindled against the man ; and he said to nathan , as the lord liveth , the man that hath done this thing shall surely die . and he shall restore the lamb four-fold , ( mark that , four times pounds ; how much is that ? l. ) because he did this thing ; and because he had no pitty . to dishonour god , by a rash oath , taking his name in vain , is , but ( by our law ) twelve pence for the temporal punishment . and to defame a prelat , ( that in comparison of god is but worms-meat ) shall the temporal punishment be no less than imprisonment , or l. in mony ? oh monstrous ! the mercies of the wicked are cruelty . but cruel men should remember ( in time they may have cause to remember ) the wretched end of empson and dudley , those grand pick-pockets , that from the breach of old statutes , and penalties , did ruine families . sir richard baker , p. . tells us , that their principal working was upon penal statutes , ( to use his words , ) they consider'd not whether the law was obsolete , or in use ; and had ever a rabble of promoters , ( a brave employ for a person of honour ) and leading jurors , ( mark that too ) at their command . they liv'd , and they liv'd to be hang'd for their pains , after three long years , ( for so long god suffered them to drink the tears of widows and orphans , namely , from anno dom. , till . ) and the promoters , ( mark that too ) canby , page , smith , derby , wight , simson , and stockton , ( 't is fit their loathed names should be chronicled to all posterity , and so shall others too that drive the same trade ) condemn'd to the pillory , and then to ride through the city with papers on their heads , and their faces towards the horses-tails . all seven died strangely in seven days after , ( in newgate ) for very shame . there 's an end , a wretched end of a pack of wretches , pack'd jurors , and promoters . the righteous god will hear the groans and cries of the widows and orphans , by unreasonable and wicked men ruin'd and undone , and will pay off the stony-hearted caitiffs ( that have lost all bowels of humanity and compassion ) with a vengeance . that atheists may know that there is a god that judgeth in the earth , and pays men in their own coin. this adonibezek ( too late ) acknowledg'd , when his thumbs and great toes were cut off , ( the very same cruelty which he had inflicted upon others . ) and thus the merciless , that ( without remorse ) delight in the ruin of a man and his house , palliating revenge with an hypocritical deodand , to ruin a man and his heritage , when god has rewarded them in their own kind , each of them over their own ruines , shall say , with adonibezek , judg. . . as i have done , so god hath requited me . for truth hath said it , they shall find judgment without mercy , who have shewed no mercy . tho this must be said in the behalf of that jury , ( that tho it was reported in london ( before the trial ) what the issue has prov'd , yet it is also said , ) that the jury in so great a fine , ( as l. ) intended nothing therein of prejudice to the defendant , but to bring him to a submission , in vindication of the bishop's credit , which ( how true it is is ) time will discover . but in truth the bishop's reputation had been sufficiently and better vindicated , if they had given credit to six substantial witnesses , who acquitted the defendant , that the words in the declaration were not spoken as they are laid , rather than to that little body , who was prov'd upon oath to be so infamous a person , by that noble earl ; and by his own vouchers prov'd to have so little regard to his duty , which he ows to god , to his own soul , and to his parishioners , and to his oath of residence in his said perpetual-vicarage , as to leave them utterly , and forsake them , taking another cure and flock , and leaving his own to the care of one that was lately a silly log-river , and knows not well how to discharge his own cure , nor to read his accidence . and all this , when not only all the said witnesses for the defendant did swear negatively , that they did not hear such words , but positively swore that they heard the whole discourse , and writ down the words immediatly upon harris his false recital of them , and his bringing them in writing to the witnesses for them to subscribe , which with abhorrence and astonishment they refused , ( the defendant being gone out of the room before , and knowing nothing thereof , and also gone out of town ) and the witnesses of their own accord writing down the true words , which they swore to , ( and several more of the company might have been brought to testify the same ) ; for tho there wanted no endeavour by all means ( possible ) to gain but one witness to back harris his evidence , — yet found they none — at last came one single false witness , who will ( as 't is said ) be indicted thereupon for perjury for his pains , and witnesses , substantial witnesses to prove it upon him , let him claw it off as well as he can , or his friends to help him . no man is too great for the law ; such fellows must be made examples of , that swear thorow-stitch , and become false witnesses , to get naboth's vineyard from him ; when it can be done no other way , must it be done by a single son of belial ? naboth had yet the honour to fall by two sons of belial ; hard case ! must the defendant be ruin'd by one alone , and such an one , and one so infamous ? nay , there was not only two against naboth , but also there was not six positive witnesses for him , as there was for this defendant , to swear positively that they were in company all the time , and heard all the words , which were not so , but so , and so . and lastly , were this little-blade of fortune rectus in curiâ , nor had any design upon the defendant's vineyard , and never so honest , yet it is against positive scripture , and god's holy word , for the jury to bring in a verdict ( thereupon ) against the defendant , ( as the defendant well told them ) because against an elder an accusation ought not to be received , but at the mouth of two or three witnesses : and neither common-law , statute-law , civil-law , canon-law , no , nor the bishop ( of rome ) himself can give the jury a dispensation against god's holy word ; and that they will find one day for so wilful a sin , and so fairly forewarn'd thereof by the defendant . — god forgive them ! it is ill for men ( that are but worms-meat ) to sin wilfully , and in defiance of the holy will and word of their creator . in the interim , — tho the sabeans and caldeans ruin'd job , yet they were but instruments ( the defendant sees the finger of god therein , and says with job , ) the lord hath taken away , blessed be the name of the lord. the world shall find in this world god's righteous justice , ( that 's my faith ) and in this case particularly , wherein god's truth is concerned against the cruelties , oppressions , and apparent , bold , and impudent extortions , and illegal fees of the ecclesiastical fellows , so unanswerably revealed by the defendant , in relief of the kings subjects , who are in behalf of their souls , ( plagu'd with their anathema's and excommunications ) in behalf of their bodies , ( hurried afterward to jails ) in behalf of their purses , liberties , and estates , so mangled by this nest ( at doctors-commons , and all the kingdom over ) by birds of the same feather , that no wonder they flock together to ruine the man that will be the ruine of their wicked trade ; and all the powers on earth will not long uphold them , to live thus as they do , in publick and daily defiance of the king's laws , in oppressions , illegal fees , and extortions , in open contempt of the many statutes made against them , and now in force , if any be in force ; surely they are as much in force , as that of rich. . about scandal . magnat . made when the prelates ( popish prelates ) were rampant , alas ! alas ! too rampant ; both laymen and clergy-men ( little clergy-men ) were more afraid of them than of serpents , toads , tygers , or wolves ; and well they might , for those venemous creatures , and ravenous brutes , were less dangerous , less mischievous , and less fierce and cruel , than those prelates , when they got a man at advantage . do you mark me ? i say , those prelates , — do not catch , mind the colloquium ( before-going ) of popish prelates , ( we are speaking of ) popish prelates , that were more mischievous , more inexorable , and hard-hearted , than snakes , tygers , bears , dogs , or wolves , or any other persecuting worry-sheep , or cruel blood-hounds . and yet those ( mind what i say ) popish prelates , with all their suspensions , curses , anathema's , and excommunications , and such kind of thunder , were esteemed by wise men , even in these days ( saving your presence , — sir-reverence ) a meer crack-fart . pope paul the third excommunicated our king henry the eighth , with such a pope's bull , that ( the historian says ) the like was never known before nor since . no wonder he bellow'd and roar'd so , ( for take a greedy ecclesiastick by the pocket , and hinder his cheat and extortions , ( as hen. . did ) and you make him roar and bellow like mad , as if you had got his hearts-blood , and all the joy and heaven some seem to aim at if we may judg the trees by their fruit ) no wonder they drew their spiritual weapons , and fling about curses , anathema's , silencings , suspensions , and grow blacker with haunting so many jaylors , jayles , bum's , promoters , hang-men , as did pope paul the third . and notwithstanding all this thundering ecclesiastical blast , and foisty grepitus , the emperor charles the th , and francis the first , the french king , ( two of the greatest christian princes then in the world , or that ever were in the world , ) and many more popish ( nay , italian ) princes and republicks ( whilst hen. . stood excommunicated by the pope ) did confirm their leagues , and entred upon new treaties and confederations with him . but i hear that some-body ( i 'le name no-body ) is mightily concern'd , saying , that the defendant's own witnesses proved the greatest scandalum magnatum against him , in words that all of them unanimously swore , namely , — that the defendant said at the same parish-meeting , ( only they are not , nor could not well be laid in the declaration ) namely , — that the bishop of london is not infallible , and the pope is not infallible . but for that , or any thing else sworn by the defendant's witnesses concerning any such scandalous words , the defendant told the plantiff's counsel , that if they were aggriev'd , they had their liberty to bring another action of scandalum magnatum , if they had not enough of this : and perhaps they will think they have enough of such promotions in time , when they have leisure ( without being drunk with passion , and a little over-seen in malice , and will take time ) to cast up their accounts ; and when they examine what they are out of purse , and what they have lost in the opinion of the world , and are come to themselves , will repent , — too late repent — and if they had repented of their extortions , pride , avarice , and oppressions , all men know that it had been better for them ; but now the more they stir , the more they stink . and if any should be angry at these words , the bishop of london is not infallible , and the pope is not infallible , and bring a new action of scandalum magnatum , or scandal against prelates , let them know , the defendant will not plead ( as now ) non-cul — but justify it by infallible instances . to omit many on this side the water , and all the great abominations of rome , i 'le instance in one particular , wherein all the papists shall take my part ( here 's a wonder and a miracle ! a true one ) against the pope himself , namely , pope innocentius , ( in his epistles ) asserting ( as also did st. austin ) that the lord's supper was equally necessary for children's salvation , and to be received as much and as necessarily as baptism it self . therefore popes have erred , ( in the opinion of the pope and the papists at this day ) and st. austin hath erred herein ; or else the papists and church of england err in holding the contrary , jointly against st. austin in the point . and if it were not that this trial gives me occasion to observe to the reader these useful hints , and lucky hits , i should ( as the reader well may ) be by this time quite weary of it : and also it is resolv'd they shall have their belly-full of mr. hickeringill , till they be glutted , and confess , for all their gaping so greedily with open mouth , and teeth , and fangs , to devour him , and swallow him up quick , in time they 'le shut their mouth , and acknowledg , that they have enough of him in all conscience . nor will he leave them , nor go ( as he hears they design ) beyond sea , a little governor in carolina , &c. no , he has more work first to do in his native soil ; they shall not be so rid of him , nor yet get one farthing of the l , except they can catch it , and they must be very cunning if they can ; perhaps they may ( as they have hitherto ) throw a great deal of gare and pains , trouble and vexation , and good money after bad . malice is like its father , namely , tho it go up and down , seeking whom it may devour , yet ( like the devil also ) it is never weary of mischief , as long as there is any glimpse of hopes to compass it , and accomplish it : though a worse hell upon earth , nor greater torment can befall them , than to go on , ( as they are willing and eager enough without bidding , and to ) proceed — halloo ! thus have i done at present with this mighty scandalum magnatum , and the defendant's adversaries have done too , and gone as far as they can ; that is , to make him retire , and give him leisure to observe their motions , and descant upon them ; that 's the worst , and they have done their worst . but out of the eater shall come forth meat , and out of the strong , sweetness . and really i do not think that mr. hickeringill has so much as a displeasing thought , or rising of heart , against this providence of god : for it is god's doings , in the secret methods of his divine wisdom ; and he best knows , by the seeming-cross-motions , ( as in the wheels of a watch or clock ) how to carry on the maker's design , which puzzles none but the ignorant and short-sighted . david — speaks experimentally ; i have been young , and now am old , yet have i not seen the righteous forsaken , nor his seed begging bread. who would have thought that joseph's imprisonment should be the shortest and nearest way to advance himself , and preserve the life of the people of god ? who would have thought , when job was on the dunghil , that his latter end should doubly transcend his beginning ? therefore let us say and pray — thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven . naked came i out of my mothers womb , and naked shall i return thither : the lord gave , and the lord hath taken away , ( and yet the cruel sabaeans , and the ravenous chaldeans , were the tools and instruments of the rapine ) blessed be the name of the lord. in all this job sinned not , nor charged god foolishly . job . , . nay , in a greater tryal of his patience than this , ( namely , the upbraiding and curtain lecture of his scolding and discontented wife ) he kept his ground , and retain'd his integrity , and the resignation of his own will , to the will of his creator ; for in all this did not job sin with his lips. job . , . no man can blame the defendant ( notwithstanding ) that he did so lustily and copiously defend himself , in shewing , to the utmost , the vanity of that futile contrivance against him , from such slender words , and so slenderly , all grounded upon an old statute made upon popish prelacy , were rampant , and were willing to shelter themselves by force of statute-law , ( which they could and did make , when and as they list ) to fence against the just reproof of all good men , ready to open at them , if their mouths had not thus been stop'd ; yet the house of commons ( notwithstanding ) were not afraid afterwards , . r. . to complain against them , in the name of the commons of england , and to perswade the king not to disoblige his people , for the sake of a few court-prelats . but do you think that that unthinking king would hear them ? and did not he lose their hearts thereby ? and did they not all join with an vsurper against him , that had no title to the crown , nor a thousand men ( at first ) when he landed . one says well , lege historiam , ne sias historia : let us observe the history of times past , lest our inconsiderate actions fill the chronicles of times to come . let us remember rehoboam , and richard — d . i dare say , the defendant does not so much as in a wish regret what 's past , for all things shall work together for good , &c. 't is only short-sightedness , and want of faith in god , that makes men stag and despond : nay , no good thing will he with-hold from them that ( desire to ) walk uprightly . and what unrighteousness has the malice of the adversary been able to prove against mr. hickeringill ; and yet there are man-catchers enough that have perverted his words , which were but due and just reproofs against a wicked , foolish , and perverse generation . the defendant has cause ( if any other have more cause ) to say , with holy david , psal . . , . my soul is among lions ; and i lie even among them that are set on fire ; and the sons of men that are set on fire , whose teeth are spears and arrows , and their tongue a sharp sword : they have prepared a net for my steps , my soul is bowed down : they have digged a pit before me , in the midst whereof they are fallen themselves . god shall send from heaven , and save me from the reproach of him that would swallow me up . he travaileth with iniquity , and hath conceived mischief , and brought falshood . hide me secretly , in thy pavilion , from the strife of tongues , until this tyranny be overpast . my enemies ( in the hebrew man-catchers ) would daily swallow me up , for they be many that fight against me , oh ! thou most high. every day they wrest my words , all their thoughts are against me for evil , yet have i not refrained to declare thy truth to the great congregation : and therefore they gather themselves together , they hide themselves ; they mark my steps , when they wait for my soul. psal . . , , , , , , . many bulls have compassed me ; strong bulls of bashan have beset me round . they gaped upon me with their mouths ; yea , the very abjects gathered themselves against me , making mouths at me , and ceased not . for dogs have compassed me ; the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me . deliver my soul from the sword ; my darling from the power of the dog. save me from the lion's mouth ; and then , i will declare thy name unto my brethren : in the midst of the congregation i will praise thee . psal . . , , , , , . shall they escape by iniquity ? in thine anger cast down the people , oh god. thou tellest my wandrings , put thou my tears into thy bottle : are they not in thy book ? when i cry unto thee , then shall mine enemies turn back : this i know , for god is for me . what time i am afraid , i will trust in thee . in god will i praise his word ; in the lord will i praise his word . in god have i put my trust , i will not fear what man can do unto me . psal . . . in the shadow of thy wings will i make my refuge , until these calamities be overpast . psal . . , , , , , . break their teeth , o god , in their mouths , &c. the righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance ; he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked ; so that a man shall say , verily there is a reward for the righteous ; verily there is a god that judgeth in the earth . but of all the whole book of psalms , there is not one psalm better suits his condition , or administers more comfort , than every verse of psal . . it was when david hid himself , and play'd bo-peep , sam. . , . in the wilderness of ziph , in a wood. he fled not from goliah , when hand to hand , but he would not contend with the power of the king ; and yet he did study self-preservation ( who can blame him ? ) against combin'd malice . and wherefore were david's enemies so malicious ? not for any fault of mine , ( he saith , psal . . , . ) for , loe , they lie in wait for my soul , the mighty are gathered together against me , not for my transgression , nor for my sin , o lord ! for they compassed him about with words of hatred , and fought against him , psal . . . without a cause . yet , though they compassed him about , yea , they compassed him about , ( yet , he had faith to say , psal . . , . that though they compassed him about like bees , ( stinging , stingy , and in swarms ) yet ( in faith ) he said , in the name of the lord i will destroy them . ay , but when ? might some say to david — when ? can you tell us that ? for to a carnal eye there was little probability of it . nay , in the very next onset , psal . . . thou hast ( saith he ) thrust sore at me that i might fall , but the lord helped me . that whole psalm , is spoken of christ and his kingdom , under the type of david , and his sufferings — typified , and his resurrection and ascension , by david's victory at length ; then god had delivered him from the hands of all his enemies , ( it was long first ) ( he was glad to fly for it first ) and from the hand of saul . but at length , vers . . of that psalm , the stone which the builders refused , ( typified of christ , and verified also in david ) the same is become the head of the corner : this is the lord 's doing , and it is marvellous in our eyes . in mr. hickeringill's retirement , his muse ( the heavenly and only companion of his solitude ) compos'd this psalm ( an infallible antidote ( if sanctified ) against all discontent , ( the common plague of mankind ) sorrows , and fears ; and which for that purpose he sent ( since his fiery-tryal ) to his most dearly beloved wife , to confirm her , ( not to bishop her ) but to strengthen her against the bishop's promotions and suits ; which for the publick-good , or common-weal , i here publish , viz. that which disquiets most poor mortals here , is not the pains they feel , but what they fear : and what we fear ; either — it will not come ; or else — sooner may come our fatal doom , and free us , lodging us in our long-home , where neither bishops nor his clerks will come to wrack us any more . then do not whine , the present good or ill ( alone ) is thine ; but — what 's i' th' depth of future times — can'st tell ? thou fool ! for thou the morrow know'st not well ; nor where thou shal't to morrow be ; nor tell whether on earth , ( thou'lt be ) in heaven , or hell. let fools and knaves then for the morrow pine , and fear they know not what , nor can divine : and let the morrow for its self take care : sufficient for the day its evils are . but enough of this , ( at present , at least ) let us in the next place consider the doughty articles , ( sworn by six doctor's-commons reverend fellows , called proctors ; on which was bottom'd , and founded , a supplicavit ) namely ; articles of the good behaviour , exhibited in the court of our lord the king , before the king , at westminster , against edmond hickeringill , rector of all-saints in colchester in the county of essex , clerk , for several misdemeanours by him committed . imprimis . that in trinity term last , articles were exhibited against the said edmund hickeringill , in the arches court of canterbury , for clandestine marriages at the promotion of henry lord bishop of london , of which high crimes he still 〈…〉 and he said edmund hickeringill , did several court days make his 〈…〉 said court , and behaved himself irreverently , and did affront 〈…〉 said court , and more particularly th of jan. anno vicessimo tertio of 〈◊〉 king , did again make his appearance in the said court then held in the common ●● all of doctors-commons london , by sir richard lloyd knight , doctor of laws , then sitting judicially in the said court , with many persons along with him , or following him to the number of thirty , or twenty persons as they do verily believe . tho. tillot , tho smith , jur. ad predict primum articulum tho. tyllet . & tho. smith in cur . die predict . hillar . anno xxxiii o coram codem rege . . item . that the said edmund hickeringill did on the said twentieth of january , then and there behave himself in the court of arches then sitting , as aforesaid , very indecently and insolently to the court , keeping his hat on , tho by the judg of the same court several times monished to the contrary ; and then the officer of the said court by the judg his command taking off his hat , he put it on again in a contemptuous manner . tho. tyllot . tho. smith , cha. tuckyr , jur. ad predict . secundum articulum tho. tyllet , tho. smith & carolus tuckyr , in cur . die & anno supradict . . item , the said edmund hickeringill , then very sawcily and impudently declaring to the judg of the said court of arches , that if the arch-bishop himself was there he would not stand uncovered : jo. miller , tho. stoker , char. turkry , jur. id predict . tertium articulum johannes miller , tho. stokes & carolus tucker in cur . die & anno supradict . . item , that the said edmund hickeringill in the open court there , among other opprobious and abusive language then used by him to the court , said it was no court by law , and that they had no power to call him before them ; and that perhaps the court of arches might do him a mischief , but that they never had done any good , or he used words to that effect : tho. stoker , john coker , jurad predict . quartum articulum , tho. stokes & johannes coker , in cur . die & anno supradict . . item , that the said edmund hickeringill did then in a moct opprobrious manner , tell the judg of the said court , that toads had poison in them , but had an antidote also ; that vipers had poison in them , but their flesh was an extraordinary medicine , or to that effect ; and that every the vilest or worst of god's creatures had something of good in it , saving , that court , which he then said never did any good , nor ever would , or to that effect , and that the persons , or many of them that came into the said court of arches with the said edmund hickeringill , laughed aloud at what the said hickeringill said , and followed him out of the said court with great noise , and laughed to the great disturbance of the said court : tho. smith , john coker , jur. ad predict , quintum articulum , tho. smith , & johannes coker , in cur . die & anno supradict . in banco regis westminster , dominus rex versus edmund hickeringill clericum . jeremy ives cheesmonger and citizen of london , joseph ashhurst draper and citizen of london , and samuel wells mercer and citizen of london , do depose as followeth , viz. that on the twentieth day of january , in the three and thirtieth year of this king , these deponents were personally present in the court ( commonly ) called the arches , held in doctors-commons london , when mr. edmund hickeringill , rector of the rectory of all saints in colchester , made his appearance there ; and heard the whole discourse , and saw the actions and demeanours that passed betwixt sir richard lloyd official there , and the said mr. hickeringill during his stay there ; and that the said sir richard commanded the said mr. hickeringill to put off his hat , which he refused to do ; whereupon the said sir richard commanded an officer to take off mr. hickeringill's hat ; which he delayed to do , saying he was afraid that mr. hickeringill would have an action against him for so doing ; but the said sir richard again and again encouraging him , at length he pull'd off mr. hickeringill's hat two or three times , the said mr. hickeringill putting it on so often as his hat was return'd to him , mildly telling the said sir richard at the same time , that it was not pride , insolence , nor any design to affront them , that made him then to be covered , but a sence of his duty , except they would own their court to be the king's court , and that they sate there by the king's authority and commission , and consequently would make out their citations , acts , and processes in the name and stile of the king according to the statute ; and that then ( but not till then ) no man should pay them more reverence and respect than he : but the said official not asserting their court to be the king's court , and as aforesaid to be kept in the king's name and stile ; and by his authority , mr. hickeringill would not be uncovered , saying , that it was against the oath of canonical obedience , against the oath of supremacy , against the canons and the statutes , to own any court ecclesiastical , but what sate by the king's authority and commission , and acted in the name and stile of the king : and if that court of arches was only the arch-bishop's court , he the said mr. hickeringill durst not , nor would he be uncovered before the arch-bishop himself if he were present ; because it is contrary to their own canon-law and the oath of canonical obedience , for a presbyter to stand bare-headed in presence of any bishop : or , he used words to the like effect ; saying , that if they could argue his hat off his head by statute-law , canon law , civil-law , or common-law , it should be at their service , and he would stand bare-headed before them ; or , he used words to the like effect . and the said mr. hickeringill during his whole stay there , used no other actions , nor speeches that might give just offence ; unless the said sir richard took offence , when he at the same time said , that every creature that god made was good , and had some good in it ; that a pearl was sometimes found in the head of a toad , and the toads flesh is an antidote against its own venom ; and the best cordial and venice-treacle is made of the flesh of the most poysonful , and italian vipers . but ( said mr. hickeringill ) the mischiefs , extortions , and oppressions of the king's subjects are apparent and many , and great , and daily committed by you in defiance of the statutes : but show but one good you do , or have done in the memory of man , or that any chronicle , or history mentions to be done by any ecclesiastical court , and then i may acknowledg your ecclesiastical fabrick to be of god's making ; or he used words to the like effect . jur ' octav . die febr. anno r. r. caroli secundi , &c. tricessimo quarto coram . w. dolben . jer. ives . jos . ashhurst . samuel wells . let all unbyass'd men , and honest citizens ( who know these gentlemen , know their quality , their good reputation ) whether it be more probable that they , who have no livelihood at stake , ( by such affidavits to win , or lose , or wreck their malice and spleen ) men of conscience and honour should attest the truth , of matter of fact , the truth whereof above twenty more substantial citizens can ( and are ready ) if needful to attest : or , six proctors of doctors commons , whose constant use , or rather , abuse , is to cheat and oppress , by injuries and extortions in illegal fees , and contrary to law. and whether they are not likely to have impudence enough to wrest a mans words to a contrary sence , and the worst sence , when they have impudence enough to commit daily such said extortions and oppressions in illegal feein defiance of the statutes of this realm . nay , how little they regard the statute of and edward the . and th . made against buying of places and offices , shall in good time be made more apparent . yet , nothing would serve sir francis pemberton chief justice , and mr. justice jones , &c. but mr. hickeringhil must find bayl , or go to jayl ; nor would they suffer any affidavit to be read in mr. hickeringhill's behalf , the chief justice absolutely refusing it , and saying , i will hear nothing in your defence , but — find bayl or i 'll commit you ; or words spoke to the like effect . sir francis pemberton had never bin the successor of scroggs , if he had not given good testimony and assurance that he is a wise man , and one that knows his cue : but as wise as he is , it would have been no blemish to his great wisdom to have heard affidavits and pleas in mr. hickeringhil's defence , especially , nothing being attested against him of such pernicious consequence , and that by proctors too , whose malice to the defendant , and inveteracy was so notorious to every man ; it might at least create a jealousie that the articles on which the supplicavit was founded , might possibly be sworn unto out of heat , malice , hatred , rage or revenge ; nay , most notoriously probably it might be so , that 't is a wonder the judges ( to whom god has given two ears , and who are sworn ( in the oath of a judge ) to have no respect of persons in judgment , ( oh dreadful oath ! and that which made judge hales tremble when he thought thereof , though he had less cause than others , so to be afraid , for he made conscience of his oath , and neither the whispers of courtiers nor the kings private letters would he regard in a cause of justice ) 't is a wonder , i say , that since one single word ( added or left out ) might alter the sence and meaning of mens words , they would suffer no testimony to be heard in behalf of the defendant . but against him as many as you please . and it is the harder measure , because it is usual to delay the sending out the writ of supplicavit ( so seldom granted at all ) against any man , especially a man of estate ; till first he be summon'd to shew cause ( if he can ) why such a writ should not be granted , and most especially not accustomed to be so hastily granted against a divine , and also a man of known and visible estate , from which there was no fear he should fly for the penalty of pound , and all for words too that are not worth a louse , if they had been spoken as the proctors swore them . but , if they were spoken to the same effect , that the other gentlemen and citizens have attested upon oath , and the same that several citizens and gentlemen ( then and there present ) can also attest , then the words are not so much as sawcy , but may safely be spoken in ( and to ) any lawful court in westminster-hall , upon occasion . much more , in and to a court , which , whether it be a lawful court is out of question , if the statute . edward . be in force , ( which no judge yet ever did take upon him in westminster-hall to declare to be repealed , for judges are but to declare the law , not , to make laws , nor repeal them , that is the work of a higher power . ) and if that statute be repealed , 't is strange , that sir francis pemberton should so urge that statute ( as aforesaid ) to sir william scroggs , so lately upon the bench , and he then at the bar , during the sessions of the last parliament at westminster , sir francis saying , — that he fore bore to urge it warmly , because he suppos'd that his lordship was not prepared at that time to give that statute an answer : or words to the like effect . which if he did say , openly at the kings-bench bar , or words to the like effect , then it is beyond all contradiction , that sir francis pemberton ( whilst at the bar ) did question the legality of their courts ecclesiastical as now managed as well , as much , nay more , and more dangerously to them then mr. hickeringill did . and if it be question'd , whether he did urge the said statute , edw. . . ( as aforesaid ) for his client mr. weild of much-waltham , the said mr. weild , and also divers others are ready to attest the truth thereof ; if any body dare deny so publick a truth . and let any indifferent , impartial . and unbiast men judge , whether it be not hard measure to be sent to jayl ( or which is as bad , find bail ) and all about the decision of a point of law , so disputable and questionable , that lawyers of known and great worth and learning ( without exception ) as any other , has urged that statute so lately in westminster-hall , and confessed , that he thought the chief justice was not then prepared to give it an answer ; i wonder what answer sir francis pemberton will give it now he is chief-justice ; it may very probably , nay ought before him to come in question , when so many of the kings subjects are excommunicated in those ecclesiastical courts , and forty days after its publication , sent to jayle , for if that statute be in force , the ecclesiastical fellows are guilty of a premunire , nay worse , nor can scarcely any name or punishment be great enough for them ; or bad enough . but , since the said chief justice said he would hear no plea's in the defendants defence , nor suffer any affidavits to be read or heard in his defence — god help to divert the reader , i 'le here make bold with a friend ; and reprint the last verses of the late new satyr ( call'd the mushroom ) in the post-script thereof , namely — to serve a turn ( of state ) a renegade , ( that has his conscience , god and king betrayd ) sometimes a base interpreter is made , though he an atheist be in masquerade ; and in rich robes ( through villany ) array'd : yet , this apostacy who dare upbraid ? the villian struts it , and seems not afraid : suborners tho' are shown in cavilcade ; to publick-wrath may liable be made : oh! then the villain will for all be payd ; then where 's your gay-apostate renegade . i have heard of a certain prince ( not in utopia , but in europe ) that said , so long as i can make bishops and judges , whom i list , i 'le have what religion and what law , i list . if , he had also said , and what juries , i list , nay , essex-juries , if i list , he had nickt the business ; and instead of saying our goods , our estates , our lives , our wives , our children , our lands and liberties are our own , it would be questionable , whether we might say , our souls are our own ; but ( worse than the tantivee-preacher , for he only said ) caesar shall have your goods , your bodies , your lands , your children and your wives , &c. caesar shall have all , all is caesars , on the outside of your souls , — but they belong to god , god shall have your souls — and if he would make his word good , we would clap up the bargain , immediately , and upon that condition , that he will make it good , that god shall have our souls , — let caesar take our wives , our lands , our children , our bodies , nay , our lives ; ( and the sooner the better ) we shall not grutch the exchange . but hard , very hard is mr. hickeringill's case , with these ecclesiastical fellows , who are either very ignorant , or very impudent thus boldly and daringly to confront the kings laws , and shall fare better in westminster-hall , then the man that reproves them , yet how industriously has our wise ancestors fenc't against these plagues ( of mankind ) promoters ? turbidum hominum genus , as coke calls them , instit . l. cap. . . eliz. . — . eliz. . jac. . in which last about old obsolete statutes ( snares with which promoters catcht men ) were at once repealed ; and yet says coke , notwithstanding all these statutes against promoters — four mischiefs still remain'd , i could have told him one more — that makes five mischiefs : but . jac. . did some good against this sort of cattle , who under the reverend mantle of law and justice instituted for protection of the innocent , and the good of the commonwealth ( t is cokes own words , inst . l. . c. . ) did vex and depauperize the subject ( will men never take warning ? ) and commonly the poorer sort , for malice ( mark that ) or private ends , and never for love of justice . shall honesty and ingenuity always be out of fashion , and under the hatches , and vile tims-serving slaves ( against their own consciences slaves ) always keep above deck ? where do we live ? that pimping , bawdy , scurrilous poetasters shall impunè libel the honourable peers and patriots of the kingdom , and the most glorious city in the universe ? and as that bold , daring and impudent hackney-muse ( in his late satyr ) like a judge arraigns , cundemns and deprives them of their priviledges and immunities ( to his utmost ) granted and confirmed by so many kings and parliaments , through feign'd suggestions of his own — for thus he rhymes — customes to steal is such a trivial thing , that 't is their charter to defraud their king : all hands unite of every jarving sect , they cheat the country first , and then infect . they for gods cause , their monarchs dare dethrone . our sacriligious sects their guides outgo , and kings and kingly power would overthrow . what 's this but to be a make-bate ? what 's this but to hang men up in effigie , for fancies of his own making ? what ? must we still down of our knees and beg pardon , and another act of indempnity from every rascally pamphleteer , and beggarly hirelings , that would fain make our wounds bleed afresh , would gladly trouble the waters that are quiet , in hopes of good fishing , to make up their hungry mouths , and greedy mawes ? any thing , any method to make the world believe that the citys charter is already forfeited , or , deserves so to be : and then — money — more money — and put it where ? in a bottomless bagg that will hold none ; you may as well fill a sive with water — as make debaucht torys rich , whose lusts would beggar , exhaust and consume the indies . is libels the way then ? nay , to libel the most loyal , best disciplin'd , best govern'd , best built , most glorious , most sober , most potent , most rich , and most populous city of the world ? and this — by every sneaking , rascally , dull , and insipid rhithmer and pamphleteer ; the world is at a fine-pass , when instead of bringing buckets to allay , and quence every vile incendiary , throws weekly sire-balls to kindle ( if possible ) our heats into a flame ? and instead of curing our distempers and wounds , or of endeavours to heal our breaches , must men be countenanced to make them rancor more ? is that the way ? as if they studied ( like some arithmaticians ) by the rule of false positions , to gain a conclusion they most wish for , and most especially ayme at ; namely , substraction and division ; but , he that sits in the heavens has hitherto laught them to scorn , and hath discovered their sham's , and has had their fallcies in derision . the hire of these pampleteers may prove ( one day ) to be ( as tory hilanders call their booty ) black-meal ( mock not ) when the mosse-trooping trade breaks them or their necks . search histories , consult the past-times , and then tell me , if there can be worse fools in nature then some that call themselves polititians ? how have they been bassled , disappointed and beloved with their own politick , wyles , shams , and gimcracks ? or could have devised a shorter cut , or a neerer way to stop their own wind-pipes , and ruine themselve , and their posteries ? except they should have made a noose of their own bedcords ; and yet ( like rogues that are branded ) might safely swear that they had got the law in their own hands : ( more shame for the branded rogues , to glory in that that is their shame , as well as bane . but , these are sad and melancholy contemplations , and therefore to recreate the reader , i 'le relate a foolish story , or a slory of a fool a country - bumpkin , who having been at london , at his return home his inquisitive neighbours ask't him what news at london ? news ? ( quoth hob ) i know none but that they say sir francis pemberton is made lord chief justice scroggs : scroggs ? with a murrain , cryes the neighbours , thou talks like a fool : ( or whether he was party per pale , as much knave as fool , some questioned ) if he had said — sir francis pemberton had been made lord chief-justice hales — the wonder had been the greater ; and the non-sense not more unwelcome ; scroggs ? ( quoth a ) a likely business ; scroggs ? and be naught ( to him ) this 't is to want good breeding : scroggs and be hang'd ( to him ) for a silly villian ? scroggs ( quoth a ) that was discarded or discharged honourably : scroggs that was questioned for as much as his life was worth in parliament ? scroggs ? ( quoth a ) a rascally knave or fool ( i 'le warrant him ) to talk such non-sense ; does not the fool deserve to have a writ of supplicavit sent after him to bind him to the good behaviour ? but i know not how to finish these observations , till i have cast away one look more upon another — ne're be good — heraclitus , who sayes this week , numb . . march. . . where speaking of hick — ( as in good manners the blade is pleas'd ( in familiar-wise ) to stile the gentleman he never saw ; at least , never beg'd his leave ( thus ) to clip or new coyn his name , ) in these words — ay cry they , this is brave , that a man must pay but a shilling that takes the lords name in vain , but if he do but abuse a bishop a little , he shall pay l . and yet 't is said hick — ( again ) himself so pleaded his own cause , but i doubt he finds a great deal of truth in that forreign proverb — the asse — ( it 's well 't is no worse ) that supposes himself a stag ( taking his eares ( i suppose ) for hornes ) does find , that he is deceived when he is to leap over a ditch . formerly , they gave him hard-names , such as knave , rascal , convicted of perjury , the great soribler of the nation ( mock not ) and now in all hast they make an ass of him ; this is language most suitable to such mens genius and way of writings , ( which slanders in time they may repent ; ) but as for his being an ass , is it not too true ? for who but an ass would write or speak so much plain and naked truth in a dissembling , hypocritical and lying age ? who but an ass would discover the extortions and oppresitions wherewith the ecclesiastical fellows load the kings subjects , and in hope to ease their shoulders , be burthen'd 'till his back crack with actions upon actions , promotions , informations , supplicavit's , declarations , articles , verdicts , libels , suspensions , excommunications , power and interest ? nor would the late essex-jury have so unmercifully heaped such a heavy load upon him , but they took him for an ass ; l. why , if a minister live the days of methusalem it is not to be collected in easter-offerings . l. is a horse-load they say ; if so , then l. is too much in all conscience to put upon an asses back . oh! but it is charitably designd for the building of pauls : if it be ; yet the work of building cathedrals of stone upon the ruines of temples of bone , or living-temples , or ( as was said before ) to rob peter to pay paul ; can never be pleasing to almighty god. and thus the hypocritical pharisees , for fear their hard hearted ness should be condemn'd by all , for suffering their parents to starve , they made an anathema of the goods they should have had for such relief , calling it corban , dedicating it to the church , and the pious deodand devouerd their charity . thus making charity ( without which all religien is a cheat and a bawble ) to give place to a foolish and hypocritical , as well as impious devotion . for my part i wish mr. hickeringil was not so overburthen'd , and made an ass of ; because of such back-burthens of afflictions the apostle paul confesses — we are fools for christ's sake , and truth 's sake . and then however , since stultorum plena sunt omnia , since folly is so endemical a disease and universal , in my judgment it is as good to be a fool for christ's sake and for truths sake , as to be ( like the weekly news-monger , and rayling pamphleteer ) a fool for the devils sake , or for the lyes sake ; besides the comfort of a good conscience , and a sound mind attends innocence in the streights-mouth — for a great soul ( like heaven ) is seated high , and like olympick-top doth quiet lye the middle-region-storms come not her nigh ; so ne're to heaven she seems to mate the skye , and with top-gallant brave the galaxye . god almighty always by some providence either takes off the load , or ( which is all one ) strengthens the back of all that trust in him ; yet this does not at all excuse the malice , the injustice , & the cruelty of men . which brings to my mind a most excellent copy of verses made by the ingenuous mr. john butler of crouchet-friars london , and by him presented to mr. hickeringil on the occasion of his sufferings , but dedicated . to the master , wardens , and assistants of the trinity-house , upon that stately useful light-house built upon st. agnes , to discover those dangerous rocks called the bishop and his clerks . afisherman whose nets were torn by stormy tempests , and by sherks , at last near to the rocks were born called the bishop and his clerks . but who those names did give , and why ? are problems none resolved have ; but this is sure , what ships do try their strength against them , find a grave . witness bows rent , sides torn , ' backs broak of many ships that prov'd a wrack , though made of iron , and of oak , did by these rocks asunder crack . are neptunes clerks , and bishops such no mercy from them can be found , as whosoever doth but touch upon them , sinks unto the ground ? or were the flamens in the time of pagan-worship so renownd for cruelties ? was it their crime , and only theirs ? and not since found ? or did the bishops who did come in place , when these were dead , and gone , retain their cruelty ( to doom men unto ruine , ) that not one . who touch't upon them could evade their anger , fury , and their rage , as if to sink men were their trade which they did use from age to age , or did some satyrs who had sinn'd and by the bishops sentenc't were in linnen white up to be pinnd , to give these names together swear ? or did the gondeliers who see romes bishop with insulting feet tread on great fredricks neck , that he in venice city shame might meet ? for which th' old doge doth every year with madam adriattique , make a marriage . and they tell you there , that for her lord she doth him take . or was it they that did behold henry the fourth , to seek the grace , on his bare feet in winter cold of that proud pope who hid his face in miss matildas-lap , till she did rub his ears , and him awake , that so poor henry being free , he other measures then might take ? or was 't tom becket in a huff , with his most right and lawful king , from whose posteriors came a puff , that him upon his knees did bring after he sainted was for treason ; yet then the king unto his shrine did barefoot go , against all reason , and scourged was by filthy swine . the monks which in that cloyster dwelt such great disgrace in days of yore , the greatest princes oft have felt . by prelates ; may they never more . it may be this , or that , or t' other gave the first rise unto the name , and cruelties they could not smother , did afterward confirm the same . but that these rocks no longer may be unto seamen cause of danger , this light-house now will shew the way which may secure any stranger . it was your wisdom and your care , this rare contrivance to invent , no pains , no charges you did spare our dangers that you might prevent . old strombolo that burns , to light seamen unto messinas phare , with agnes flames that shine so bright , for usefulness cannot compare . that future ages will record , who did this stately fabrick raise ; and to your glory tell abroad this deed to your immortal praise . come fellow seamen 't is the night we use clean linnen to put on , he'rs to our wives ; it is a right them once a week to think upon , the bishops and his clerks no more shall shipwrack bring as in late years , and as they us'd to do of yore , now the light-house of naked-truth appeares . men love darkness rather then light , because their deeds were evil . for every one that doeth evil hateth the light , neither cometh he to the light lest his deeds should be discovered : but he that doth truth cometh to the light , that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in god , jo. . , , . by their fruits you shall know them ; if they be mischievous , and bring forth nothing but sharp pricks , then they are briers , and thisles , and thorns , and nigh unto a curse , whose end is to be burned . — they loved cursing and anathema's so let it come unto them , saith holy david . any sober-man would think that a reasonable man might well enough be contented ( if he were not very ignorant and very impudent ) to enjoy quietly , the pleasures , the riches , the honours , the grandieur and the pomp that now ( attends bishops ) of so cheap ( too ) and easy acquest or purchase ; and stately and prince-like , as may be temporal and wicked lay-princes of the gentiles — — nay , as many the princes and peers of the nation ( who by inheritance come by the same ) and rights to which by gods providence , nature , and birth they are born unto ; nay , in their city houses for ease , their country houses for delight , far transcending the most peers of the realm ; one would think ( i say ) such bishops , after so full a meal , might say grace . and bless god for his goodnss to them , and never disturb themselves , nor the neigbourhood , with being promoters , inventers , action-drivers , exacters of penalties and utmost rigour of old statutes , for which crimes empson and dudley were hanged . what an odd sight it is to see lawn-sleves , surrounded with procters and jaylors , and apparitors , and promoters , and serjants and bayliffs , affidavit men , and hung about with articles , writs , labels , and libels , declarations , informations , indictments ? and then proctors and a little black-coat at his elbow ( hungry for a living ) and ready to swear through-stich , when his own interest , and the favour of a bishop is in the case ? what wanton pride as well as cruelty and hard heartedness to delight in visitations , vexations , when he might well enough content himself ( one would think ) with his exceeding many flocks and herds ( which the piety and charity of our devout ancestors , and the cunning and avarice of others , has monopoliz'd to them , leaving the poor ( now ) quite out of their ( old and primitive ) share thereof and good right unto ' ; ) without the wanton boulimy and greedy appetite after his neighbours little ewe-lamb , and all the substance and subsistence of a man and his house , no though he should pretend to dedicate his neighbours little ewe-lamb to god , as a sacrifice , or an anathema , or a corban , by grand hypocrisy ; as if god almighty did not hate robbery much more cruelty ( under colour , and by the help of summum jus , or the rigour of law ) for a burnt offring ? and if no less will serve the bishop of london's charity , then to give l . towards the building of pauls , it is more honour to take it out of his own numerous flocks and herds ( which once the poor had as much title unto , as the rich prelate , before avarice and pride came in fashion-ecclesiastical ) and not go to rob the spittle for a deodand and by force or rigour of law. i have known a gentleman , that had one odd humour and you will say , it was a very ill humour ; that after dinner when his belly was , full of good victuals , and wine , and strong drink ; the fop grew so wanton , and the ape wasso mischievously gamesy , and with good chear half drunk , or so half-tipsey , that he so far forgot himself , that instead of saying grace , he would be pinching and nipping those that sat nigh , or within his reach , especially ( if he had any old pique against them ) he would nip and pinch , 'till he made all black and blew , or left the print of his nayles in their flesh ; ecce signum : i 'le conclude this essay , with an epitome of the most considerable parts and passages in this long book ) that has swelled beyond the primitive intention ) and will best serve those ( that will not find leisure to read the whole ) in this following-letter , long yet most compendious , most emphatical , most humble , and most submissive letter , writ by mr. hickeringil himself , verbatim , to the right reverend henry lord bishop of london , at london-howse . my lord , so little success has attended all my former addresses that i am almost hopeless of this ; but understanding that your lordship expected my application , no deficiency should be on my part . though i must confess , that had it not been for this worthy gentleman mr. firman , ( the bearer hereof ) i was not readily perswaded to write to you . because you carry my letters to your lawyers for them to pick ' vantages , and accordingly two of my letters to your lordship most disingenuously were read against me at the tryal , but the judg told them they were no proof of your declaration , yet sir francis withins he made mimick and dumb signs to the jury at every word — nay , my very books were brought into court , and sir george jefferyes just such another man ( as the woman said ( that other-hopeful council ) he pointed at my books with his index , as not knowing what to say against them without blushing , ( of which ( yet ) he is not very guilty ) and onely made dumb shows too , which were not capable of answer or vindication , yet were sufficient hints to a willing jury that knew their meaning by their mumping , and their gaping ; and accordingly gave a verdict ( contrary to all mens expectations ) against me , and dammages — l. ( a good round sum , two horse-loads , and therefore would break the back of one horse , no wonder then a single parson should shrink or sink under the unconscionable load . ) yet i understand that this unreasonable verdict is so pleasing to you , that in the jollity of devotion you have made it a deodand ; and intends to dedicate the trophee of your victory towards the building of pauls . if so , i fear your piety is not of the cabal , or cabinet-councel with your charity ; nor will you find that it is pleasing to god to make a man an offender for a word , ( and no such mighty words neither ) if trump had swore true , for the wholly acquitted me of the words in the d. count , and yet they were words of his own making too , of his own single invention , and of his own ordering and marshalling in the declaration , and which no flesh alive heard me speak but himself , as was attested by all the by-standers , that swore not onely negatively against this evidence , but positively and contrarily as the judg declared ; and that they were not so , but so , and so ; as they penn'd them down ( whilst fresh in their memories ) when i was gone , and occasion'd by harris his going into another room by himself , and writing his own man-catching-shams , which he brought to the company to subscribe , which with abhorrence and detestation they all abominated , and both him and his projects , that ( with the help of a pickt , and specially appointed jury ) have been so successful ; and whom you may well thank , or else you had now been in my debt , not i in yours , nor ever was i in your debt nor beholden to you for a courtesy ( the most trivial courtesy ) in my life , which i did not requite ten times over , but mischief you have done not in aboundane , contrary to law . indeed , if you had prov'd your declaration that the words ( first ) were spoken before divers the kings subjects ( nay the words in the last count were not sworn unto by your own implement , ( though he devised them ) but ( by cross and unexpected questions ) he was forc't to swear against your own and his innuendo the popish plot , and also swore , instead , of a damnable plot ( which he swore at first ) dwindled it to a horrid plot ( onely ) against my righteous name and person ; though there he swore falsly , for my words were — against my righteous name and reputation in the barretry , and the very same words i writ to your lordship , and harris also confest there was some pause or comma , but no interlocution or interruption betwixt the word plot — and righteous name — which yet these lawyers would have improv'd , though harris contradicted them therein , and himself also . and as for the other words of ignorance and impudence , you will the rather remit the rashness and severity of the expression , since your injustice in sending that illegal sequestration of the profits of the small tithes of the parish of st. buttolphs , ( to which i was instituted and inducted as rector of all-saints long before you were quartered in colchester with your brother compton's troop . and therefore , if you do me no good , you did ill causelesly to provoke me , and in hopes to do me a mischief ; you did act illegally , and contrary to law. and all this in favour of an infamous creature , that had not the docility and exactness of memory that my parrot has , for if she could not have more perfectly conn'd and repeated the few words in the declaration more exactly and uniformly than he did , and have learn't by heart and off-book in half the time he has had to conne them ( and of his own making too ) i would pluck off her head . and do but think impartially with your self what a disparagement it is to your judgment and skill in men , not onely to prefer to your favour such a creature before me , but in favour of him , to endeavour by an illegal sequestration to wrong me of my right , and so take what is mine and give it to him : you may do lawfully what you will with your own , but what have you to do ( unlawfully ) to take mine from me to give it to him ? a fellow that is not so good as a chip in broth. i never was nor ever will be ambitious of a prelates favour if i can but keep out of their clutches ; and out of harms-way , and keep them from doing me a mischief , it is all the favour i ever expected , or ever will expect from them ; you will not suffer me quietly to keep my rights to which i am lawfully instituted , which wrong of yours has occasion'd all this stir ; thus the original sin is yours , but the punishment thereof is mine ; there is no conscience nor equity for it though ; let me tell you , without incurring your further displeasure , as hitherto i have , because i durst be so bold as a worm , namely to turn again , when trod upon by you , against the law of the land ; and because of saying this truth , and complaining to you for remedy and crying out and groaning , when you press me unmercifully , as well as illegally ; without compassion as well as without law , nay contrary to law , therefore you double my pressures — with — more weight — more weight . — first you torment me 'till i groan , and then you pinch me , ' cause i moan . and all this you know to be true , and yet your heart ( i fear will be ) hardned as much as ever , because i cannot make false submissions , and confessions of faults that were occasioned by your own injustice and causeless revenge , and default , ( to call it no worse ) if such submission or satisfaction as becomes a gentleman , or a christian to pay you , will serve your turn , you shall have them chearfully and readily , but base concessions , against truth and honour , all the prelats in christendom ( united ) shall never extort from me , use what cruelties you please , or shew the world your skill in men , your policy , and solidity of your judgment and discerning , in preferring such a wretch to my estate , whom i doubt not but speedily to convict of perjury , ( notwithstanding all the assistance you can give him ) and make an example of such an episcopal tool , of those ears , that can hear more than all the listening and attentive company ; and yet so silly , that he cannot repeat those short words twice together uniformly ; who was also prov'd infamous , by his endeavour to cheat the earl of lincoln , in hopes of an guinies ; and also by his forswearing himself for the company of a wench , and by being usually a maudlin-drunkard ; and this is your man , ( who you have in your great care of souls , in your judgment and skill , with so much bustle and detriment to the parishioners , preferr'd not only before me , but to my rights in law. well , if nothing but such counsels still please you — then still , go on — and endeavour the ruin of me and mine ; and yet with a corban or anathema , imagine to atone for the unmercifulness ; go on — i say — thus with a spice of devotion , in pretence to please him that hates robbery for a burnt offering , and would not permit the hire of a whore , nor the price of a dog , to enrich or adorn his sanctuary — but go on then — and under colour of law , or rigour , or summum jus , make blandishments for cruelty and revenge , and cement paul's with the briny - tears of my widow and orphans — when you have buried me in a jayl ; nay , carouze in their tears , and cry , huzza's with jollity and full sayls , fill'd with the sighs and curses of those you bereave , whilst thus you endear and honour the name of a bishop and prelat ; and by being a promoter and a striker , or action-driver , in temporal in spiritual courts , strike thus with your two-edged sword , that cuts both ways , and meditate to enrich your self ; or , ( to avoid that imputation ) design or pretend to build a temple of stones upon the ruins of ( the living temples of the holy ghost , and ) temples of bones . this counsel , ( though it is mischievous and fatal to you , and the werst you can take for your self , your reputation , and honour , and profit too ; yet because pleasing to malice , hatred , and revenge , 't is possible you may follow it ; but first judg how suitable it is to your office and family ) or rather this honest , sound , honourable and fair proposal : namely — that , since ( of this outragious verdict ) you shall never have a farthing , ( though you perhaps may throw more good mony against bad ) nor any mighty credit ; because it was the verdict of a jury picked for the nonce , and of men that held commissions only ad nutum , and good pleasure of the court , where you have great influence at present . and since all you can get , or shall get — is my bones — if you can catch them ; — and perhaps you will never catch them , — nor will i ever fly for it , my friends and enemies shall not so be quit of me . — but if you do get my corps , — it is but like the arresting of a — dead corps — sometimes ( but rarely ) practis'd , and that ( only ) by inhumane creditors — a barbarity that will ill become bishops at this time of day , — how confident soever they be , or may flatter themselves . besides , since the verdict , and also your prosecution , was expresly against the word of god , tim . . . which commands ( you especially ) not to receive an accusation against an elder ( older than your self ) but under two or three witnesses : here was but one , and an infamous one , and a man keen with self-interest and pretensions to the profits of my benefice ; though most illegally , and an intruder , and could not swear it perfectly neither . for what sir tho. exton ( your other precious witness ) did say , the judg declared , it was nothing to the proof of the declaration ; and therefore ought not to be accounted any thing to sway the jury , as to finding for the plantiff , ( whatever or however his testimony , or my private letters , might aggravate the dammages ) yet first the declaration ought to have been well prov'd , ( for 't is not scandal till communicated ) before men use to talk of dammages : but it was so far from being well prov'd , that the ( worse than ) parrot , could not say it uniformly twice together , nor alike . nor did your other witness , sir tho. exton , get more credit amongst all ingenuous and unprejudic'd men , by making my private submissions , and what i spoke in confession to him , ( as an old friend , and in mediation of peace , and an accommodation ) a publick accusation and aggravation ; but , judg you , — how inhumane , unchristian — un-knight-like , un-man-like , and ungentile is it for a man to be treacherous , and make his table a snare ? — a turk or bravo ( amongst the spaniards ) that live by killing men , will yet rather die than be treacherous , or , betray any man under colour of friendship . many that hug the treason , hate the traytor , and will be shy of him ; at least , they ought to avoid him , as an enemy to all society , commerce , and conversation , as a serpent in the bosome , or a toad , or any dangerous villain . god● keep all good men from trusting to the honour and ingenuity-ecclesiastical , especially that of a lay-vicar , ( bless us ! from the hermophrodite ! or church-monster ! ) or — gray-fryar , as sir thomas exton , doctor exton is , in one sence . it was an exton too , that treacherously and cowardly came behind king richard the second , and murdered him with a back-blow , when his valliant hands were busied with three or four rogues more , ( he killed one or two of them tho ! ) before that treacherous and cowardly villain — exton — strook him behind , and did his business . but , i send this to your lordship , that you may show it to your two doughty confidents and witnesses , and lawyers ( if you please ) as formerly ; but rather as an expedient to acquit your self , with honour and profit to you ( more than to my self ) from this outragious verdict of a pick'd jury , singled out by special order of the court of king's bench , ( i shall live to thank them ) ; which verdict , ( notwithstanding ) with all your interest , friends , power , and greatness united , shall never be worth one farthing to you , ( i say it ) neither in mony , nor reputation and honour : but , on the contrary , this fair and equal proposal , shall be both , certain profit in hand , and as certain honour ; namely — that , considering the premises , and the outragious dammages of l. ( if they had given you s. all the unprejudic'd world would blame them on such an infamous single evidence , against so many other witnesses , as well as against god's word ; and that s. would have been better for you , in mony and reputation than the l. for , if the jury , on a stretch , did it to vindicate your honour and reputation , then they are guilty of the greater scandalum magnatum , to prize your honour but at two thousand pounds . thus they have set the price on 't , in full value in their opinion ; for , as for dammages ( you sustain'd ) there was none prov'd . the proposal is this , viz. i will pay you , upon dedamand , single costs , ( or , if you have the conscience to take it ) double costs , as the master of the office shall tax them , ( so you will be sure of something ) ; and i will also give you sufficient security for the paiment of whatsoever another jury shall give you upon a new tryal , if the cause go for you . nay , to have an equal and indifferent jury , i will give you far more advantage still ; i will consent , that you shall chuse what county in england , essex , middlesex , tork-shire , or where you please , for the venue , and to try the cause in , over again , upon this only condition , that the last pannels of juries , return'd the last assizes , in other causes , in nisi prius , in any county , you please , or shall chuse , to draw any of them by lot , not looking into them , 'till you ( or some for you ) have drawn and are fix'd : and let the tryal be managed by what learned counsel soever , all england over , and before what judg soever best pleases you , and i will have no assistance in the management , ( but as the last time ) god , and my self , and my witnesses , and the justice of my cause . and , if you will not accept this fair , this honourable , this profitable proposal , then consider — how lost will the justice of your cause be in the opinion of all men , nay , even in your own opinion , if you be afraid to try another grapple , before an indifferent and equal jury , not prepossest , not pick'd , not pack'd , not depending upon — to help you out with it . and , though you have now given me a foyl , you had twelve such kind of men to help you ; but it will abate the good opinion of your courage , the good opinion of the justness of your cause , even in your own opinion , if you dare not , upon so fair terms , let go the catching hold you have got , and take fair hold , when you may assure your mony , your costs , your credit , and your dammages , ( all now desperate ) only by playing the prize over again once more before indifferent and equal judges ; and you shall have mony of me too for playing the prize again , with a naked , single , priest , friendless , helpless ( but ) not hopeless , though you are arm'd with all your power , friends , riches , ( and consequently ) learned counsel , high places , and interest , and flush'd ( also ) with your late victory and success . i 'le venture all i have in the world upon this contest , if you will stake an equal gage : what ? shall such a man as i am be run down with one little , single , ill - thriven , infamous priest , against god's holy word , and so many substantial witnesses ; nay , a priest that cannot tell his own tale off-book , with the exactness , uniformity and docillity of a parrot ? the world cries shame on 't , and of such a jury . nay , ( further ) i here promise that i will surcease the prosecution of that same harris , in order to convict him of perjury , 'till ( first ) this new tryal be over , he shall have his beggarly ears a little longer on this condition ; that 's some comfort for this episcopal witness . these are the certain benefits and honour you may be assured of , by consenting to a new trial : and if you do not consent , i doubt not but the judges will grant me a new trial , whether you will or no , at the term , upon such suggestions as i shall make to them , and upon such motives as has been prevalent with them in other cases ; and why i should not have justice , nay , their countenance too , more than vile extortioners , oppressors , or their abettors and partakers , i do not understand : i believe i shall live to see the day , that judges will value the oath of a judg , and have no respect of persons in judgment , though never so great ; ( oh! for judg hales at this day , and in this affair ! ) or , if they warp , will warp on the right side , and countenance the innocent sufferer for telling men of their sins , and not warp in confederacy with the sinners , and grand contemners of the king's laws , who are very ignorant , or else , bold , daring , and impudent , to act so contrary to law , in vile extortions , &c. at a fair hearing , my lord , you can never justify the wrongs you have done me , in despight of his majesty's laws , and god's laws ; ( where is mr. withins with his dumb shows to give item hereof ? ) his dumb shows could not keep him in the parliament-house from his knees . how can you answer the invading of my legal rights by an illegal sequestration , contrary to magna charta , and the petition of right ? how can you answer it , to turn promoter in the spiritual court ? is it for a bishop to be a striker , that is , an action-driver or promoter ? and to strike with his two - edged sword , and hack and hew both ways ? as you have hack'd me in spiritual court , and temporal courts ? ecce duo gladii ! the popishgloss , says , temporal and spiritual sword , but what is that to you ? how can you answer it , to vex me in despight of a premunire , with law-suits , and accusations of barrety , in the spiritual courts , ( as you have done ) in defiance of the many statutes of provisors ? are you above the law ? are you indeed ? we will try that one day : it is no scandalum magnatum , to say , that greater men than you ever were ( or ever shall be ) have been glad to kneel , and submit their sturdy necks to the laws of england . how can you answer it , to vex me in the spiritual court for barretry , in those very instances , whereof i have been honourably acquit , upon a fair hearing in the courts of our lord the king ? how can you answer it , as promoter , to cite me , and prosecute me , in the name of robert wiseman , doctor and knight , or i know not who , from my home , my employment , my cure , ( that you ought to further , not hinder ) and not in the name and style of the king , as enjoyned . edw. . . a statute that i doubt not but to make good against you all ? and then , what will become of you all ? how can you answer it ? when you were , or might be convinc'd at the king's head in colchester , that martin and groome , &c. your apparitors , who forswore themselves against me , and against the ecclesiastical records and registries , still to countenance the prosecution ? and when i was acquit ( honourably ) still to vex me again , and turn promoter to plague me for crimes ( of which i was prov'd innocent , and to vex me in a court that cannot take cognizance thereof , and have incurr'd the danger of a premunire , for the vexation you have done me therein causelesly , and for the illegal prosecution ? for you ( as promoter ) swore witnesses to those articles ; and cited i was , at your promotion , to attend your motions thereon , at lexden ; manent altâ mente repostum , when time shall serve , you shall hear on 't . and when you had plagu'd me almost a year with these barretry-articles , then they dwindled only to marriages without banes , or not paying your registers , or your under-officers mony ( as i used to do ) for blanck-licenses , or marrying too cheap , this is the worst inconvenience thereof ; and i think that i can prove that i have as much , or more authority to give blank-licences , then your lay-vicar , doctor exton , or , your lay-registers ; ( a fine world ! ) when matrimony must be the benefit of those gray-fryars , ( instead of the benefit of the clergy ) because the hermophrodites buy their places , or hire them . besides , there is not a minister in our town , or ( almost ) in the whole country but does the same , and why do not you turn promoter against them also , if justice be not only the pretence , but malice , spleen and revenge at the bottom ? why do you make fish of one , and flesh of another ? why a picque at mee only ? or is it because none of them had the wit , or at least , not the grace , nor honesty , nor courage to discover the ecclesiastical corruptions , which you are too privy unto , and ought to amend and not boulster them up ; i am ashamed on t ; and so may others too in time , and of such grand partiality . besides those poor five couples , which i am accused off , ( for marrying without banes first published in time of divine-service in the parish-church or churches ) is a fault impossible to be avoided ; for else the couples could never have been ( legally and in strictness of law ) marryed , having no parish-churches , nor any divine-service at that time ; and yet your procters in the articles swore they were high crimes . oh! ( my lord ) would you be willing to be so serv'd ; and to be so done by , as you have done by me ( to be plagu'd , vext and suspended of your benefice and office three years , for transgressing the rubrick in the common-prayer-book , which you so dayly transgress ( as well as other statutes ) in your nonconformist illegal confirmations , and the like ; which in time i can prove upon you , and not always bear and bear your blows , and be alwayes defendent . or , if i should be such a fool as to give you l . how can you in conscience or honour take a penny on 't , when you are not damnified a penny ? are men bound to repair when there are no dilapidations ? which of your many high-places or preferments have you ( thereby ) lost , either temporal or spiritual ? what minute favour of the king have you lost by this scandal , that had never been heard of , if harris had not broacht it ? what displeasure of the king or great men of the realm have you incurred hereby ? i know not what you may do tho' , by being unmerciful , cruel , or hard-hearted in using your power ( quite contrary to the apostles ) and abusing it and your self — for destruction , not edification ; you know not yet how apt mischief is to rebound , or the eccho to tell tales out of school ( as all eccho's do ) and of its fathers motions , and ring all the kingdom over , and make good the proverb — harm watch , harm catch — or how you will answer it , for your neglect of gathering the king's tenth's , of fingring hoe ; or , not returning the default , a peccadillo to your other crimes in this letter minutely mentioned . the greatest murthers ( as that of naboth ) was done by form of law , and two sons of belial for false witnesses to prove the declaration ; but my l . must go upon the testimony of one son of belial ; ( fy on 't let 's hear no more on 't ) my hap is harder then naboths : robbers are neverthetheless robbers , though they have a vizard on . if you will not consent to a new tryal , upon so profitable , so honourable and so advantagious terms , what will men think and say of you ? how will their jealousies of foul play be increased , when you dare not let go this catching hold , and take fair hold before equal judges ; especially since this verdict ( as i am told by substantial witnesses ) was discoursed upon the royal exchange before the assizes , that the jury would give averdict for the plantiff , and l . dammages . if this be so , this is to hang a man first and judge him afterwards , which ( if i prove to be true ) how can you or the judges , in justice or honour refuse a new trial , that will be so profitable to you , especially if you conquer : whereas now you will get nothing but my bones , which are old and will do you more harm then good ; you will wish you had not troubled your self with them ; they will prove as fatal to you as you can be fatal and mischievous to me ; ( if you do catch them ) and it will be some loss of ready money to catch them ; there will be some craft in the catching of them , i 'le assure you , with all your power , and yet i will seldom be a mile from your house , perhaps just under your nose , must men be run down with one single infamous , ill-looking , interested , ill-thriven , revengeful , beshrimpen , forgetful , dull priest , in defiance of gods word , and in defiance of the testimony of so many honest and substantial witnesses , whom no temptation could corrupt ! never think on 't , it cannot , it shall not be ; yes ! perhaps you may get my childrens beds from under them , i know not how stony-hearted you will be ; and yet ( i do ) in part . shall you first occasion all this by doing me wrong , and sending the wretch to usurp my legal rights by vertue ( or vice rather ) of your illegal sequestration ? must i suffer for your mistake and ignorance at least ; ( if it be no worse ) if it be no worse , it must be through your ignorance of my title ; and your prosecuting me for barretry ( as promoter ) in the spiritual-court , must be through your ignorance of the law , ignorance of the statutes of provisors or worse then ignorance , for — ignorantia crassa not excusat — a bishop and a privy councellor ( above all others ) cannot , nay , will not be admitted to plead ignorance of those laws that were made on purpose against prelatical insolence and usurpations ; for if your prosecution was illegal , blush and repent at least , and make me restitution for being promoter thereof , if legal , why did you abandon it and durst not mention it in the sentence ? however , it is mentioned in the process , and you shall hear on 't all of you , if i live . nor can you plead ignorance of the fundamental-laws and constitutions of the realm , and yet to commend , recommend in print , and in publick discourse ( in the presence of the mayor and aldermen of colchester , at your last visitation , kept at the king 's - head tavern in colchester , and in presence of divers other witnesses and worthy gentlemen ) to seem to justifie the canons , and constitutions of forty ; nay , the very first and worst of them — that ( foolishly as well as falsely asserts that ) the most high and sacred order of kings is of divine-right , being the ordinance of god himself , founded in the prime-laws of nature and clearely established by express text both of the old and new testament ; ( right lambeth — arch-bishop lauds nowne selfe ! ) the mischievous and bloudy consequents of this doctrine is aboundantly discovered in my d . part of naked-truth , p. . which if you had impartially read , you and i had been friends not foes : and none of you ( yet ) did or have been so hold as to answer it , or attempt to confute , otherwise then by oaths of ecclesiastical-fellows , whispers , cabals , pointings , and dumb-shows of council to an apprehensive jury ( to endeavour my ruin and how did you quarrel me at the same time at your visitation upon this very contest , shakeing your head , and saying , now you begun to know me ( not for a tantiviee , even ! curse ye meroz was a true english-man ) but said also ( and if you had not said it , this letter might have been spared ) that you never desired ●● speak more with me ; yet you could turn promoter against me in the ecclesiastical court , and defame me ( to a person of honour ) as a barreter , and vex me and plague me with actions upon actions ( i never was quiet one week since that contest when you said begun to know me ) articles , supplicavits , libels , informations , verdict of your pickt-jury ( much to your honour ) promotions , &c. but because you said ( then ) you begun to know me , you and the world have therefore ( since that time ) known me better , and do know you better too , upon that difference betwixt us , the rise , ground cause and occasion of all our after contests , and therefore you took my place of surrogate from me , the next day , for i also began to know you then and was more joy fully dismist in hopes that i and the world may know you better , and publickly renounce these canons of . which you publickly commended particularly , that ( which you then justified ) the first canon thereof , that same arch — lauds canon , the sybthorpian canon , away with them for shame ! manwarings canon ; for our difference thereupon is a difference about this most considerable point ( this day ) in the kingdom , a point on which all english-men's lives , estates , liberties , their children and their wives , does depend ; a point of difference betwixt me and you and your convocation and canon of . which not a tory jury , but a parliament had need to decide . what ? ha ? is it come to this ? is the boyle ripe , that has been so long a breeding ? is the push come to a head ? 't is high time to let out the corruption . behold the ghastly cicatrizes still ! or rather wounds which were ( i thought ) quite closed , and must men rend and tear them open again impunè ? 't is true , dr : laud , sibthorp and manwaring got preferment by this tantivee ( before they durst make it a canon ) principle ; laud was archbishop and chiefe minion ; but manwaring recanted in the parliament-house upon his knees with tears , and was grievously sentenc't , . carol. . . by both houses of parliament , to be first imprisoned ( the bishops could not help him , ) during the pleasure of the house . . he was fined pound ( that was not pound to the king ( and yet his offence border'd upon if it were not quite treason ) and the original-rise of my offence , onely my dislike of such villanous and damnable doctrines . . he was to make submission and acknowledgment of his offences at the barr of the house of commons , merciful judges ! for the poyson of this doctrine of devils afterwards occasion'd on one side our late bloody civil-wars ; and must we recommend and justifie at this time of day ? is it come to that after so much blood-shed ? an aggravation , an aggravation ! as withins said , — remember . and the canons of . as well as . or . when arch — laud lost his head ; and the king and kingdom all most ruin'd , and dare any man publiquely be at it again , when his majesty has so often declared that he will keep his oath , his coronation oath inviolably , when so many addresses has been made to his majestys thanking him that he promises that he will not break his oath , nor rule us arbitrary ; but as ( we are ) englishmen and he a good english king ; we do not live in turky , muscovy , nor yet in france ; how hastily soever , and furiously some men drive slaves and sycophants that having no children , no inheritance nor posterity , care not how they ruine posterity to get a little present paultry preferment , ( the price of their slattering souls ) nay , they ruine themselves by these principles as well as endeavour to ruine the king and kingdom ; such plaguy ear-wiggs ought not to come near the king-ear , for they wrigle in infection what they can , blessed be god , his majesty is not capable of such impressions ; no thanks to earwigs — ( like other men infected with the plague ) they care not how many they infect , when they themselves have got the tantivee sickness , or , like devils , care not how many they tempt to damnation , being themselves condemn'd ( the expression is not harsh , better for men to be cur'd with ink than a hatchet ) you have no better way to acquit your self from jealousies and fears , then by as publick an owning of me , as you have publickly vext me ever since i spoke against your constitutions of . . manwarring was to be suspended for three years ( gentle ! most gentle ! ) and yet his crimes were more mischievous and fatal then to marry people too cheap or without banes , or without a blank-licence , ( meer trangum's for want of other faults , and thus it alwayes is , when men are resolved to find a hole in a man's coat , and rather then fail they 'le make one where there is none , and then get procters , apparitors , and doctors , and an episcopal-tool , to swear in a willing court — lo here ! here is great holes ! high crimes ! ) whereas manwarings-doctrine and such like doctrine occasioned the ruine of our flowrishing kingdom and common-wealth . . he was disabled to have any ecclesiastical dignity or secular-office , ( but his fine was pardoned by king charles the first , and the doctor punisht with the two best livings in england , namely the rectory of stampford-rivers in essex , and the rectory of st. gyle's in the fields , and had a dispensation to hold them both ( do not tantivees know the way to the wood ? and the way not to be plagued with promoters , bishops , articles , informations , suits , supplivavit's , declarations and outragious verdicts , they are wise and know a way worth two on 't ; and willing to be of the religion mr. sheriff is off , especially if the court do but command him , to single out and especial jury for that very purpose and expedition . . that he shall be for ever disabled to preach at the court hereafter : ( and all such as he , they might well have added ( all such sycophant preachers might well be spared , even in lent , the very harvest for court preachments ) all such poyson-sellers , that for mischief might out vye the poysoners of france . ) but the best on 't is our king ( blessed be god ) does not overmuch heed vain pulpiteers , and does but smile when the bigotly feaver makes them talk idlely and prate impertinently ( like the gown philosopher phormio , that never saw a sword drawn in anger , or ( if he did ) tremblingly knockt his knees together , and yet the fop made bold to read militia lectures to hanibal — of the art of war. — ) no thanks ( tho' ) to these well-willers to the mathematicks ; though wise kings shut their ears , or smile to hear a pragmatical coxcomb , or imbost bygot , who mounted upon the stage of the over-topping pulpit ( bless us ! ) how liberally he flings about — have at all within his reach — and is as terrible as a french minister when he cockes his beaver , looks grim , and lifts up his threatning-arm heav'd up and arm'd with a geneva-bible — gentlemen — look to your heads — look to your hitts — do not dop your heads there — the man is n●t in earnest — draw-can-sir means no harm , he may fright fools and little bigots ; but can not hurt them . for his threats are as inefficacious perhaps as the bishop's-benediction — ( of paris ) when the flocking-beggars beset his lordships coach , and begg'd his alms ; instead of opening his purse , though he was close-fisted , he spread his empty palms , and laid them gently upon each of their heads , muttering his set-form of words , and gave them ( instead of a cardecu or a farthing ( a piece ) which they expected , ( to him ) ( or more readily come by , or always readier at hand ) a cheaper commodity ) his episcopal-benediction . at which disappointment the sawcy beggars told his good lordship , that if his bishoping , or bishop's - benediction , had not been in his lordships good opinion the cheaper ( if not ) the viler alms of the two , his lordship would not be so prodigal of it . the history does not say , whether they grew stiff in the knees ever after , as not willing to kneel on the cold hard stones , or in the dirt , any more , for his lordships benediction . — but the parisians , and jeering nickering shop-keepers , smil'd to see the wretches kneel so devoutly for an alms , and yet be angry when they thought themselves disappointed and fob'd off with the empty benediction of lawn-sleeves , ( i mean ) that popish lawn-sleeves , who smil'd in his sleeves , and said — si populus vult decipi , decipiatur — as if he should say — the world is a great cheat — the knaves cheat the foolish bigots . but if that parisian frenchified bishop had been forc'd by law to give a souce or a shilling to every one he so bishop'd , that as he pretended to both the two swords , the temporal and the spiritual , to do mischief with , so he might be forced to both the two charities , the temporal and the spiritual — to do good with — and be constrained by law to be good in spight of his teeth , as well as cruel and mischievous , and to be as honest as the publican , that said — half my goods i give unto the poor ; and if i have taken any thing from any man , by false accusation , ( mark that ) lo ! i restore him four-fold : and if the bishop had so given the poor their old moety , and primitive share , in his mannors , tithes , and glebes ; or , at least , let them go snips with him , in getting a shilling for every time , and every man , woman , and child , to whom he so liberally ( higgle-tee-pickle-tee , hand over head ) gave his benediction : i am of opinion , the popish bishops , whatever the protestant bishops may , would not frisk so often about their diocessess in frequent visitations , procurations , mony , more-mony , conferences , &c. but rather shut up their doors , and keep a big overgrown porter to keep out the crouding votaries from such benediction . however , the office of such a bishop would be ( then ) good for something , and they would be ( giving twelve-pence a blessing ) spiritually and temporally charitable ; as now some are ( with their two-edged sword , spiritual and temporal ) most troublesome and mischievous , ( in france ) by suspensions , silenceings , church-censures , curses , and anathema's , and mony — more mony — excommunications , prisons , jayls , hey-day ! for an apostolical man , alamode de france ! come , my lord — open the pulpit doors of all-saints again to me , ( or else i 'le open them my self ) which with so much ado you have endeavoured to shut , and exclude me , and bolt me out ( if you could tell how ) for a bibble-babble — marrying too cheap , or not with a blanck-license ( as hundreds others do uncheck'd ) therefore act not in revenge , nor partially , in devotion to your registers , that used you unworthily , ( in many mens opinions ) in making a promoter of you , for the accomplishment of their viler and baser ends : and let there be no more strife ( as abraham said to lot ) betwixt me and thee , betwixt my people and thy people , for we are brethren — why should we thus quarrel a days , and thus fall out by the way — about your registers , blanck-licenses , or fees illegal — or mony ? — and a little mony has ( to my knowledg ) often taken up this dispute with them — : for you know — mony is all they aim at , that buy their places , or hire them — you know it well enough ; — or , if you do not , i can tell you how , and where , and whom , and when — and as for your little harris his evidence , ( if it were true ) consider the first provocation you gave me , through your ignorance of my title to the benefits of the small tithes of st. buttolphs ; to usurp which from me illegally , you sent the creature with your sequestration ; would you be so done by ? or have your superiors to take from you your rights , and you must not speak for your self ? and tell them , they are ignorant and mistaken in your title ; or , if you do — slap — says the usurpur with an oath upon you , and reports your words in the worst sence , and another sence than you spoke them . for harris has not wit , memory , nor docility , to repeat my words twice together alike off-book ; and must i pay l. because he wants wit or grace ? my lord , 't is hard ! you would say your self , if it were your own case . why should we make our selves thus the town-talk , the kingdoms talk , the chat of every ale-bench and coffee-house ? this might have been — in time foreseen ; — but you did not know me , when you said you began to know me ; if you had , you would not have ventured to attempt to — wrong me of my said rights , to please ten thousand such as harris , a little minion , that neither you nor the church can have any credit of , more than of a little fucus , good for nothing but to paint your cheeks with a blush ; and to say too late — i had not thought . better late thrive ( tho ) than never — i assure your lordship ( as i did formerly ) i have not done half my best , ( that is — my worst , as you will call it perhaps ) ; and you will find it true , and the men of doctors commons too , ( say ) i tell you so ; whereas i , as i said before , do lie on the ground , and can fall no lower , i am shot-free ; or , if with so much advantage of power , and the outragious verdict of your pick'd-jury , you hit my body , yet you shall never finger my estate ; and my old corps will but make you sick of them , and prove fatal to you , and annoy you , if you do catch them ; extend then your utmost cruelty that your great power or revenge can contribute , yet stony-heartedness will bring no other renown to the bishop and his clerks , except the external blame and fame of being mischievous to all posterity , by virtue of a single oath of an infamous wretch , that swore for his own ends , against all the by-standers , and believed by a jury singled out for the service , against the word of god so expresly to the contrary , as aforesaid ; a bishop should not countenance this ; nor is scandalum magnatum an offence at common law , but an offence only against a penal statute , and the penalty , imprisonment ( only ) 'till the author be found out — but the very words of . rich. . are scarce intelligible in the last words ; yet , no punishment of the author is mentioned in the statutes ; and penal statutes ought to be taken strictly — and not extended to dammages — ( as the lawyers have finely spun it out ) — especially when no harm have you received , nor ever could , if harris had not broach'd his own lies , and father'd his spurious brats on me — and i must be charg'd with them l. thick , by false accusation : remember zacheus , luk. . . but , not a penny ( upon my word ) shall you get , except you will consent , as aforesaid , to a fair new trial , by an indifferent jury , empannell'd in other causes , and not pick'd for this exploit only . this is not a time ( my lord ) for bishops to rule with a rod of iron , and break men in pieces like a potters vessel ; christ and his apostles did not so . this method might have done ( simply tho ) in queen mary's days , and in the inquisition of spain , and in england too , when the high-commission-court was up , but the wringing of the nose brought forth blood — and the bloody and cruel bishops paid dear for it in conclusion — mens eyes are opened — it is not to be done now in england . — if we may judg at the minds of the people , more by the last parliaments , than the last addresses , ( which i like well enough of ) ; but were there not as many , and as numerous subscriptions to that usurper , richard protector , nay , more zealous expressions and promises ? but when he needed them , not a man stood by him — i know the case is vastly different — but not different in zealous promises and protestations . but as little rivulets alter their motions to follow the great tyde — and the stars obey the motion generally of the primum mobile , though they may have some little excentrick motions of their own : for , whatever the generality of this nation does affect or disaffect , it shall become a law ; ( it is naked truth ) oh! but we have a law and act of vniformity , and must not laws be put in execution ? i answer — no — not with partiality — but either hand all or save all — either punish all nonconformists or none — make not fish of one , and flesh of another — ( say ) — in your conscience and honour , is there any conscience or honour in this partiality — hang it — it breeds ill blood — shall a non-conformist-bishop send men to the devil for non-conformity ? hey-day — where live we ? besides , cruelty , severity , and persecution , does ill become a protestant bishop ; the servant of the lord should not strive — but with meekness instructing ( not jayling , nor cursing ) those that oppose ( mark that ! ) themselves . should they ( indeed ) curse them , and jayl them , and send them to the devil by excommunication , and tossing them to the magistrate , ( as nimbly as if they were but tennisballs , and all this racket about a moot-case , or , mony matter ) by significavits , in order to jayl them ? and then the nimble magistrate tosses them to the bishop again ? as the justices of middlesex admonish or desire you , in their late printed declaration , to deliver men to satan by excommunication , that so ( also and likewise ) they may not be capable of suing for their lawful debts , nor be competent witnesses , nor jury-men , nor testators . this is no persecution to speak of — but — except death — what is worse ? — nay , 't is worse than death to be thus us'd for a bawble . time was when i writ — curse ye meroz — that i was just of those mens scandling . — and in this particular , had no more wit than sir george jefferies — who then admir'd my folly , ( for such it was ) as all men admire those things that sit their own size , their pitch , and their attainment , their honour and their scantling . but , i confess , my lord , at that time , i knew no better , ( how does interest blind the eyes of the wisest ? ) 'till i consider'd the golden rule of our saviour in this case , of doing as we would be done unto ; and how loth we should be , that the rigour of law should be exacted for our non-conformity , or — premunires — and that empson and dudley were hang'd for being so rigerous ( against the general sence ) in exacting the penalty of statutes , in force too : some justices ( now ) admire this policy : hullou ! let them go on — they got the law in their own hand . — time was , when i look'd upon all non-conformity , to proceed from humour , frowardness , self-conceit , or design , rather than from tenderness of conscience ( the mock of atheists that have none ) until i had impartially weighed their arguments , which i could never ( as yet ) meet with any man that was able to answer ; if you can , you understand more than i. no , not that argument of king charles the first , mentioned just before the last verses of my black nonconformist — concerning conscience — god's throne — and therefore refrain — do not ( like the giants ) attempt to scale heaven — the babel is in vain to boot — though pope and devil — high-commission or inquisition should confederate against conscience ( god's throne ) it is hard for such persecuting saul's to kick against the pricks . besides the great friend of persecutors ( innuendo ) the aforesaid devil usually leaves them ( as he does witches ) when he had brought them to the gallows . — i do not desire you should , in a sowr humour — turn the cordial wine in this letter to vinegar , and cavil at it , as formerly , and make it my accuser ; but do — if you have the boldness — for i will justify it to a tittle ; and that there is no scandalum magnatum in it , to any but the wicked , who have most need on 't , and therefore much good may it do them . there is a divine nemesis , a divine vengeance ( the heathens could say ) that pursues bloody and cruel men — they shall not live out half their days ; like that heathen adonibezeck ( i shall live to hear them say ) as i have done , so god hath required me . and , my lord , you have not such enemies under heaven ( in time you will believe me ) as these ecclesiastical fellows that egg you on , and hearten you on to stalk as their promoter , for their own little ; and baser ends and gain , ( in their dear-bought offices and places ) to these harsh methods , so below the dignity of a bishop — saying — what will become of discipline ? what of the church ? fie on them ! what care they for discipline ? that ( as well as they love mony ) coine but little out of whores and rogues , swearers , drunkards , tories , and blasphemers ; except of a poor whore now and then — but mony will redeem or buy off a white sheet . but , if there be a consciencious non-conformist — they coin him presently — or — if he will not down with his dust — and ready darby — then curse him and jayl him . — brave doings ! and yet what wretches in england are greater contemners of the king's laws than they ? or , greater oppressors ? and how can you answer it , to talk of discipline and excommunication , and be a promoter , — and yet not deliver these fellows to the devil , amongst other vile sinners ? what has the house of prayer to do with a den of thieves ? for shame ! for shame ! for shame of the world , and speech of people , abhominate this partiality , or , pretend to no discipline at all . the very heathen romans did so hate partiality , that brutus sacrificed his son to justice : and shall a christian , nay , a protestant , nay , a protestant bishop , be guilty of partiality ? and draw his two-edged sword against some dissenters , and some non-con's , and some that marry without blanck-licences or banes , and yet connive at others ; nay , at the impudent contempt of the king's laws , in extortions and oppressions , and illegal fees , of his own servants and officers just in his eye , and under his nose ? it admits no answer — no cavil to evade it — a premunire is not harsh for harsh men , and partial and unjust , cruel men. augustus ( busy to reform the state ) blusht when a peasant bid him go home and reform his own house first , his wife and daughters , being the veryest whores in rome . whose vices ? what sins ? what oppressions does your discipline-mongers correct ? no , not their own ; good doings the while — when vice corrects sin — nay , it does not that neither — if there be friendship , tory-ship , tantivee-ship , or mony in the case — rare discipline ! — let me hear no more talk of discipline , except it were better . where does one ( of all the whores in england ) stand in a white sheet for lying in polluted sheets ; are they amicae curiae . besides , tho to me it seems improbable , that ever popery should be the state-religion , yet it is possible that it may be so , and then — by this act of uniformity-principle , we must all be papists or mariyrs — then i think we have uniform'd sinely , and have made a sine scourge for our own backs — and well may the inquisition-men stop our mouths with our own arguments , and methods unanswerably , with — out of thine now mouth will i judg thee , thou wicked servant — but , all this while , i had almost forgot our old friend mr. manwaring and his sentence — which was . — . that his said book was worthy to be burnt ; and that his majesty may be moved to grant a proclamation to call in the said books , that they may be all burnt accordingly , in london , and both the vniversities , and for inhibiting the printing thereof upon a great penalty . this was a true english-parliament — in , and not that of , nor : as the rascally-hireling pamphleteers thunder it , slaves like esau , that vilely sell their birth-rights . and all the addressers in england , can never chuse other than true english-men to defend their liberties , their lives , their estates , their children and their wives ( basely sold by pensioners formerly ) — tho the tantivy-slaves little deserve such a parliament . england is not frenchisied , nor ever will , never think on 't , they 'll dye ( first ) a thousand deaths , if possible : men may as well talk of — , — and , — and , — or — , as . for when we are dead , our children will be true free-born english-men ( and so dye ) if they be not bastards . now , my lord , compare the crimes of the laudian-convocation of , ( for which you do so stickle , and hate me , and vex me ever since i opposed them ) canon . with the crimes of manwaring charged upon him in parliament by mr. rous , namely , a plot , and practice to altar and subvert the frame and fabrick of this estate and common-wealth . . in labouring to infuse into the conscience of his majesty ( oh! may such ear-wigs never now come so near him ! ) the perswasion of a power not bounding it self with laws ( the very crimes charged against duke lauderaale and the e. of danby by the loyal long-parliament ) they sate never the longer for that tho ) but what car'd they ? which king james of famous memory , calls in his speech to the parliament ; tyranny , yea , tyranny accompaned with perjury . ( where is your jus divinum now , my lord ? and your prime-law ? ) in your constitutions of — : see the articles and impeachment of arch-bishop laud. . in endeavouring to perswade the conscience of the subjects , that they are bound to obey commands illegal ; yea , he damns them for not obeying them ( vide your can. . of , to the same tune . ) . in robbing the subjects of the propriety of their goods , ( vid. the proceedings twelve years together , from till , whilst bishop laud was a minion and a privy-counsellour ) in loanes ( you may call them gifts , for they were never repayed , ship-money , customs , and such like ) if a high-way-man say , with sword in hand , come — friend , i must borrow your purse , we had as good give it him as be cut . . he brands them that will not lose this propriety with most scandalous speeches and odious titles , to make them both hateful to prince and people ; so to set a division between the head and the members , and between members themselves , ( and how like , my lord , are your proceedings against me ever since you ( said ) you begun to know me , when i spoke against your canon and constitution of . how have i been vext and plagu'd ever since , a martyr for the publick-weal ) against your canons of , by your promotions , citations , processes ecclesiastical , about fiddle-faddle , suspensions , excommunications , except i would pay a guinny , ( which i did ) suits , articles , libels , actions , informations , whispers to judges and great men , supplicavits , informations in the crown-office , defamations as a person convicted of perjury , declarations , and now , an outragious , and convicted verdict of l. and yet , ( for god's sake ) what one evil have i done ? or , who swears against me , but the for-sworn rogues , groom , and martin , your apparitors , six proctors , harris and exton , all ecclesiastical fellows ? and yet here 's no plot ( belike ) against my righteous name and reputation ; i never was quiet one whole week together since that fatal time that your lordship begun to know me ; know me ! for what ? for what ? for what you shall know me till i dye , ( against your lambeth-canons of ) a true free-born english-man , that hath a lusty posterity , and estate for my heirs ; and heirs for my estate ( if i can but keep it out of your episcopal-gripes ) and i 'le gage all i have ( chearfully ) upon this quarrel and difference , the true cause of all our differences ever since , and more fit to be decided by a parliament , than a tory jury , pickt and singled out . if i had said , as you said , and as the convocation of said , and as the poor clergy ( then present ) durst do no other than say , it had been l. in my way , and a better penny , the canons of . with a curse and mischief attending them . but no bribes can tempt me , nor fears appale me ; as the cardinal told the pope of luther when he refused a cardinals cap , — germana illa bestia non curat aurum : therefore keep your gifts to your self , and your threats too , and reserve your high-places and preferments for tantivies , i am none ; nor for threat or money to be made a slave , or a traitor to the fundamental laws and constitutions of this kingdom ; and this , as mr. rouse stiled it , to the speaker without rebuke , this state and common-wealth ; not unlimited and absolute monarchy , but bounded within laws ; not by prime law of nature , nor by express texts of holy scripture , as falsly , can. . of your constit . . but by human bargain , compact and stipulation , contracted and agreed unto betwixt the king and his people . . to the same end , not much unlike to faux and his fellows , he seeks to blow up parliaments , and parliamentary powers . god grant there be no such vilanies alive at this day ! no such privy earwiggs — nor therein successors of laud. one would think a bible should better become bishops , than unhinging of governments and fundamental laws , that the sycophanis have no skill in , thus — unlike apostolical-men — and leaving the word of god to serve tables : acts . , . nay , leaving it to do mischief and get the kingdom 's curse , and sometimes a block for their pains , and unsuitable albtro-episcopal mischief . hamlet , king of denmark , was poysoned and kill'd , by poyson poured into his ears as he lay carelesly and securely , and supinely sleeping by his false friends and sychophants . we are told this day by nat. tompson's intelligence [ numb . . ] that john wolf [ i do not know whether your lordship ever heard of him or no ] that notorious pick-pocket , when he was [ on saturday feb. instant ] at salisbury , drawn to eexcution , confessed that he had pickt pockets at st. james's chappel , at the time of receiving the sacrament , &c. god bless us from church-pick-pockets ! amen . thus [ saith mr. rouse to the speaker ] you have heard the voice of the wicked one — judas ( quid dabetis ? ) what will you give me ? [ two good livings and preferment and favour , tantivie ] and i will betray this state , kingdom , and common-wealth . and observe how manwaring nickt the time for rendring this damnable doctrine , namely — in the heart of the loan , and printed in the term that ended in a remittitur . so that you might guess [ saith he ] there might be a double plot — [ namely — at westminster-hall as well as in the pulpit at white-hall ] by the law — and conscience to set on fire the frame and estate of this common-wealth , was mr. manwaring — [ just such another man as he that justifies the canons and constitutions of ? well — he got preferment by it , but it was his ruine , ] as well as the like doctrines the ruine of this kingdom and common-wealth . and by his divinity [ saith mr. rouse ] he [ manwaring ] would destroy both king and kingdom : [ mark that ] the king , for there can be no greater mischief , than to put the opinion of diety — [ whose will is a law ] into his ears : [ yet how ignorantly and impudently , by that lambeth-synod , attempted in that can : . of the constitutions of , from , falsely pretended express divine scripture : will men never take warning ? for if [ continues mr. rous ] from the king's ears , it should have passed to his heart , it had been mortal : you know how herod perished : [ i may add , you know how king hamlet perished and died by this ear-poyson ] will men never take warning ? king alexander the great , well answered his sycophant courtiers , that diefied him — he that empties my close-stool , is not of your opinion ; nor did the wenches that lay with jupiter and hercules think them to be gods ; or , but very lustful , beastly , goatish gods. jupiter appeared to io more like a bull than a god. now [ continues mr. rous ] this man [ manwaring ] gives participation of omnipotence to kings : tho a part may seem to quality , yet all doth seem again to fill up that qualification , and very dangerously , if we remember , that god saith of himself , i am a jealous god. he goes about to destroy this kingdom and common-wealth by his divinity . but do we find in scripture such a destroying-divinity ? [ yes , yes , if we believe a whole synod , and believe the constitutions of , my lord , mischievous canons of , i may well say , and so may all mine , and this poor kingdom too , ruined and undone by such synchophant-tantivee-doctrines . ] surely i find there [ namely in scripture continues mr. rous ] that god , is the god of order , and not of confusion — and that the son of god came to save , [ mark that — my lord ] and not to destroy . by which it seems he hath not his divinity [ mark that too — my lord ] from god , not from the son of god — and that we may be sure he went to hell for his divinity , he names sundry jesuits and friars , with whom he hath consulted ( mark that too ) and traded for his divinity . but not to be-ly hell it self ; the jesuits are honester than he [ mark that too ] for if he had not brought more hell unto them , then he found with them , he had not found this divinity in them , which he hath brought forth ; yea , in his quotations he hath used those shifts and falshoods , for which boys are to be whip'd [ mark that too ] in schools , and yet by them he thinks to carry the cause or a kingdom , [ mark that too , my lord ] you see the ground and occasion of this — difference betwixt your lordship and my self [ begun in the presence of mayor and aldermen of colchester ] is not private piques , but an adjudged case long ago — in many parliaments , and called in , in parliament , the case of a kingdom ; and so it is , and will be — see the book called , the loyalty of the last long-parliament — wherein , tho there was a long bill of pensioners ( who may yet live to be hanged , for it is far worse than robbing by the high-way ) said to be found amongst them , such as the treasurer had gratified with two hundred thirty one thousand six hundred and two pounds in two years time — ( oh liberal ! on a poor kingdom 's stock , and so empty an exchequer — as the widows and orphans howl ! ) yet the major part of the parliament did , and for ever will continue true english-men to the ancient constitution and frame of — government , and the fundamental laws — ( the scoff of tories and tantivies . ) this loyal long-parliament plainly told the king in their address against duke lauderdale — feb. . — . ( not nor . ) that he was abused — saying — some persons in great employment under your majesty , have fomented designs contrary to the interest of your majesty , and people , intending to deprive us of our ancient rights and liberties , that thereby they might the more easily introduce the popish religion , and an arbitrary form of government ( well coupled in troth — papist and tantivie — together ) to the ruine and destruction of the whole kingdom , &c. ( then particularizing ) the duke of lauderdale , did publickly affirm in the presence of your majesty sitting in council ( i am apt to think your lordship heard him ) and before divers of your majesties subjects then attending , that your majesties edicts ought to be obeyed — for your majesties edicts are equal with laws , and ought to be observed in the first place . — thereby justifying the said declaration ( of march , . ) and the proceedings thereupon , and declaring his inclinations to arbitrary councels , in terrour of your majesties good subjects . they conclude thus — we do therefore in all humility implore your sacred majesty — that for the ease of the hearts of your people , who are possest with extream grief and sorrow to see your majesty thus abused and the kingdom endangered ; that your majesty would graciously be pleased to remove the said duke of lauderdale from all his employments , — &c. wherein , if his majesty has gratified his people to ease their hearts from the said terrour , your lordship knows better than i. and in their addresses against the king's declaration of indulgence — they tell his majesty plainly , but with all humility — that penal statutes in matters ecclesiastical ( mark that ) cannot be suspended but by act of parliament — and yet some judges have been of another opinion , ( i know who , and where , and when , when time shall serve . ) and tho his majesty tell them in answer — that they question his power in ecclesiasticks , which he finds not done in the reign of any of his ancestors . and in fine — his majesty did desert the misinformations of earwigs , and adhered ( as most safe ) to his great councel of parliament , and did cancel that declaration — ( notwithstanding the suggested-power in ecclesiasticks ) and declared it should be no president for the future . let no man dare make any such suggestions for the future , and may such earwigs also be banish't to any part of earth , or into the earth — rather than thus to plague a king and kingdom at this rate , in all ages , and vex and grieve his sacred majesty and his parliaments — what a pother and a doe have parliaments had with these tantivies in all ages ? and how ruinous and ruful were the consequents — i know not whither you — my lord , can remember , but — i can , by woful experiment — you said you begun to know me — now you know me better , and i know you in part — i hope i shall know you better ; the onely design of this letter — i wish synods , and lambeth convocations , and bishops would keep to their bibles , and mind their own business ( work enough , in conscience , for bishops in england if they would stoop to be conformists to the act of uniformity , and more than a thousand bishops can legally perform , if there were so many in england ( for there was a greater number in a far less spot of ground in africa , contemporaries with s. austin the bishop of little hippo , that was never so big as islington ) which is not impossible ; nay — if we had a thousand bishops in england they could not at all do — the confirming work alone — let alone the work in the house of lords , and at the councel-board , and their promotions at doctors commons , and ther actions , suites , and declarations and libels , as action-drivers and promoters , and visitations , and vexations ) of ruinous consequence to the projectors as well as to the kingdom ) such as the tantivie doctrine of manwaring and little laud — that had better minded his book , his excellent book against fisher — then to turn politick-engineer , and master-gunner in planting of canons against the fundamental laws , that such tantivies are not skill'd in — but if they read but of a king in scripture , though it be rehoboam , ( that fool ) or caesar ( that heathen ) then heysday ! — for the pulpit — or the synod — hey for lambeth and the canons of . but , you will say , what have i to do ( a priest also ) with these state-matters ' to which i answer . . these state-matters ) improperly or foolishly handled by your tantivee-archbishop laud , and your tantivees ( bishops that would have been ) sybthorp and manwaring ) and by your tantivee canon . of the constitutions of was by you justified in your publick visitation , and before the mayor hnd aldermen of colchester , and the greatest part of the gentlemen of the town and clergy of that precinct ; and for you boldly to recommend or justifie this tantivie-canon of the constitutions of — — i know not whether all the clergy you have , or any friend in england would have thus adventur'd — suo periculo — to awake you out of this tantivee-dream — in which , as in the old disease ( the plague of english-men , and of english-men only ) called suder anglicus , or the english-sweating-sickness , if you sleep in it , 't is mortal , if you had a hundred thousand lives ; and i think you are beholden to me , above all mankind , him that you have thus vext above all mankind , for nothing but the cause — the cause of the kingdom — the cause — and fundamaentl-laws , scoff't at and derided by none but drunken tories , and sack-posset-tantiviees that cry — brother — let me pledge thee — brother sybthorp , brother two livings brother manwaring , brother arch-laud ; they will be loath to follow him though at the long run , and latter end — but it is that we must all come to — if we be tantivees — therefore as you love your self , my lord , and me — let me hear no more — in my part of essex — any more commendations , justifications , aggravations , or recommendations , of this ignorant synod , and tantivee-convocation — of lambeth — in their constitutions of — — nor of any such synod-men , that were never lick't into form-political ; let them tell sacred stories of god and christ — i but no more politick canons of — . against the fundamental laws — if you love me , or my betters , ( innuendo ) your lordship for one . . this politick-lecture of state-matters begun by you and your lambeth-synod has been a plaguyvexation to our kings and parliaments in all ages — read the history of the barons wars in king john's reign — hen. . hen. . the edwards — the richard's , the henry's — i had almost said — the charle's . by what i have said , you read the said bickerings in the reigns of king charles i. and our present soveraign king charles the ii , and his loyal house of commons , then which never any king was more happy than he in that — yet ( though ) chosen in a time of languishing expectation , after the prosits and benefits of a king ( which we had too long wanted ) they were english-men still — and he 's an ass that expects a fitter juncture or more auspicious election — for the choice of parliament to carry on any designs but what are catholick , and according to the good old cause — i mean the fundamental laws — which not a few swearing and beggarly pamphleting tories , and unthinking and very impudent tantivees , and withal very ignorant , are able to defeat , though they draw down their canons of — which i thought had been nail'd and damn'd , and ram'd . years ago , by the tories themselves and tantivees to whom they prov'd so fatal — will men never take warning ? must parliaments always be plagu'd with these earwiggs and tantivees ? flaterers and court sycophants , and blesphemous insinuators of divinity into humanity by a most atheistical invention of a new hypostatical vnion — but the holy trinity admits no partners , though the priests teach us , or inculcate never so villanously , traiterously , falsely , illegally , unscripturely , irrationally , or blasphemously . it is a high shame , that 's the truth on'c , that such tantivee-doctrines should thrive — and such as stand up for the ancient laws and liberties must suffer above all others : 't is a shame , power should be thus abused ( like a silk worm ) to ruin and consume its self to bedeck worse vermin — 't is a shame — i will not venture to say any more — but draw a curtain over some mens shame , because i will not show — all — their nakedness — i forbear — my lord i have done — and leave you to think sadly to think ( and with sorrow ( i hope ) and repentance too ) for justifying this first canon of the constitutions of . those chequer-works of different hue — black and white — good and bad — especially the first of them — nigro carbene notamur — let you and i remember that first fatal canon of the . of the constitutions of . that has been so mortal already , and will still prove ( without very timely and immediate repentance ) baneful to one of us , or rueful to both of us , or to this kingdom , state , and common-wealth . but still you will object — what have i to do to discuss these state-matters , sit chiefly for a parliament ? i answer — that you have given the occasion ( the sad occasion ) it now becomes me , and becomes necessary what before had been as impertinent as for a bishop or synod-man to meddle in the state-affairs . but . do you compare my skill or learning or vndeastanding in laws and state-matters — with meer cassock men , meer synod-men , that never yet were lick't into other form or fashion , than their own tantivee will and inclination — undisciplin'd , unrefin'd in judgment , by the study of the law of the land , the study of men , and the laws and tempers and constitutions of forreign kingdoms , more whereof i have seen than some tantivee circingles ever read off ( in heylin's geography , if they have it ) and do you compare my knowledg-salt-water-souldiers knowledg in state-matters , do you compare us that have been souldiers ( at least on this side the water in times of peace ) with meer cassockmen ? i hope there is no compare , at least the comparison is as odious , as groundless . but , i had almost forgot the provost of eaton , where i left him ( mr. rous to the speaker ) saying — for a conclusion , to give you the true character of this man ( dr. edward manwaring ) whom i never saw , i will shew it you by one whom i know to be contrary to him — samuel — ( we know all to be a true prophet , now we read of samuel — that he writ the law of the kingdom in a book , and laid it up before the lord. and this he did as mr. manwarings own authors affirms — that the king may know what to command , and the people what to obey . but , mr. manwaring , finding the law of this kingdom written in books , tears it in pieces , and that in the presence of the lord ( right tantivee ) in a pulpit , that the king may not know what to command , nor the people what to obey . thus mr. manwaring being contrary to a true prophet , must needs be a false one , and the judgment of a false prophet ( mark that ) belongs to him . i have shewed you an evil tree , that bringeth forth evil fruit , and now it rests for you to determine , whether the following sentence shall follow , cut it down , and cast it into the fire . thus have you seen , my lord , what a pother and a do , these clergymen have made in the kingdom , how parliaments have been plagu'd with these tantivee-jehu's , ( nay kings most of all , and themselves also ) the rash phaeton's setting the world in a flame by ambitiously mounting and driving switch and spur , gallop and tantivee in a chariot they have pride to mount , but no skill to drive , sindging and burning themselves to boot in flames of their own kindling . in your next visitation , i hope , we shall hear no more of these canons and constitutions of — — i wish it for my own sake , that would avoid all occasions of contests , differences , suits and disputes with all men , more especially with you , but i wish it also more for your own sake , you will most repent it in conclusion , if it take air , and be nois'd abroad so loud , till it come to the ears of the king and parliament , ( when we got one ) his majesty has promis't his subjects frequent parliaments ; the fundamental laws ; which whosoever attempts to undermine , and liker another faux , to blow up , it will be his ruin , and fall heavy on his head . better leave no lands , no fields to our heirs , than akeldama's only , or fields of blood ; or else in base tenure , at the will of the lord — much worse , at the mercy of every court sycophant that may well beg us and our estates for fools , if we be willing to part with our fundamental laws for manwaring's sycophantry , or , your so magnified can. . of the constitutions of — . and , in your next visitation , not my sufferings will so far daunt the english-clergy , but that they will remember , they are englishmen , not scots , nor irish tories , nor lambeth canon-men , especially when their eyes are a little more opened with more naked-truth — for magna est veritas & praevalebit ; men will not long be blinded ( under pretence of loyalty ) to abuse the king , the constitutions of the kingdom and themselves and their posterities ; nor be willing to bold their liberties , their estates , their lives , their wives and their livings ad nutum episcopi , no , nor ad libitum regis , but ad libitum legis . oh vile slaves ! willing by cowardly pedantry or ambitious sycophantry to be hoodwink't , and led by the nose to a certain precipice and ruine , or , to have a ring put through their nose , and led about like bears for sport , or , collars about their necks , because enamell'd perhaps , or made of silver — and snapping and biteing and snarling at him above all others that would take the collars off , wnuld unringle them , would unhoodwink the blind-men buffs in spight of their teeth : i 'le do 't , i am resolv'd , let them snarle and bite — poor hearts — it is their nature — they cannot help it , nor can i in reason expect other requital of my charity , i know them , the men and their communication — the men and their innate envy , and peevish revenge : in time , they will grow better , when prejudice and passion makes them not forget that they are englishmen ( not irish-men ) christians , ( not bigots ) and willing to be governed by our ancient english constitutions and laws ( not the manwaring and laud's canons and constitutions of — . ) have we , with so much adoe , been puzzling all this while , these years , and are we not yet got over the lambeth-canons and constitutions of ? must the church and kingdom twice be split on the same rock ? some men endeavour it might and main ; or else the loyal long-parliament were not the happy house of commons ( as the king styles them ) at least not happy in their intelligence , if they struck so violently ( without sufficient reason ) against duke lauderdail and the earl of danby , for this very cause of the kingdom , the good old cause ) ( without a sarcasm ) good for the king and kingdom , the best and surest , if not the only way to make the king and kingdom happy , safe and pleasantly united , against which ( the old and true foundation and principle ) none ever yet attempted , but it prov'd his ruine , bringing the old house over his head. and when you hav impartially weighed the mischiefs that have attended these new sybthorpian doctrines , manwaring and dr. lauds false canon of — . you and i shall never more quarrel , nay , let us now shake hands , enter the ring again , and try the other touch in a new tryal , or , let us shake hands , and be friends , and on condition you be so good natur'd as to remit this vnconscionable and outragious verdict i to shew my good nature , in requital will remit the injuries aforesaid , the original sin that has tainted the consequent differences and contests , i hope i have in this long letter given your lordship such sufficient satisfaction about the canons of — the vanity , the mischief and falshood especially of the . canon thereof that , like eager disputants , we shall end just where we began , and yet , both be wiser and better , and the kingdom too , for this contest , and then this outragious and vnconscionable and vnreasonable verdict will have a happy issue , in either curing the st. anthonies fire heat and tantivee-flame , that has not only endamaged me , but endanger'd the peace of the kingdom , if we believe the late long and loyal parliament , or if not convert , at least convict and rise up in judgment against those erostratus's , that get great titles by setting the church on fire again by such tantivee-heats as produc 't and brought forth that destructive-canon . of the constitutions of and burnt a fine church . yet some tell me , that all this long letter is but labour in vain , that you are set upon a will and revenge , and whom you once hate you know not how to remit , but i have other hopes : surely i do not wash a blackamore , nor preach thus long a sermon to as little purpose as st. bede when he preacht to a heap of stones , or , as if i were preaching to the rocks , near silly , called the bishop and his clerks , you cannot be so stony-hearted i think : but , either you will remit the verdict and be friends , or accept of those honourable and profitable proposals which i hear make you of a new-tryal : and if you will do neither , the world shall know it , that they may judge betwixt you and me , and my six substantial witnesses , and your single , interessed witness , that swears for his own ends , to get me out of my rights , which you have unlawfully indeavoured to invade by an illegal sequestration , the cause of the words betwixt us : and the canons of the cause and first occasion of your displeasure against me , which made you so willing in defiance of ( tim. . . ) gods holy word to receive an accusation , nay , and prosecute it too , upon the single testimony of an in famous wretch , who wants the necessary accoutrement of a lyar , a good memory , whom i have begun to prosecute for the perjury : i hope you will not still countenance him against such a man as i am , i have also prosecuted for perjury your other apparitors , groom , martin , and your six procters of doctors-commons : blush for them , help them not for for shame — ( i hope ) no — noli prosequi nay i am advis'd to make an attaint against the jury . i have in this letter , made very sharp reflexions and corroding epithites , of the laudian-faction and tantivee-principle ; it is not rashly done , but upon good advice , such spreading cancers and dangerous cannot be corrected , check't , nor cured without precipitate corrosives . for this lambeth divinity ruins humanity , polity , and policy . we do not live in muscovy ( where john valevodsky ( i believe i do not write it right ) the muscovy-duke and emperour of russia , tyrannically laid a tribute ( upon the people ) of several bushels of living fleas and ( in default ) an outragious fine and arbitrry . if it had been bushels of dead fleas , i believe i knew where he might have been fitted the last summer but fleas have a skittish property , and are sooner kill'd than jail'd , or put into pound , except they be dealt with as the spanish fryar dealt with the musquetoes of the bay of campeachy in america , namely , he excommunicated them , and then every body knows it is not very far to the jail or pound . the tyrant had as good have seized their lands , their liberties , their lives and their wives , without the ceremony of bushels of fleas ; only to pick a quarrel — for so the tyrannical bashaws of egypt at this day , bring thither a ship load of tin , and without the philosopher's stone , turns it immediately to a ship load of silver , by sending to every man , according to his estate , a quantity of tin , commanding them to send him , the like quantity of silver , and so the bargain is made ; or , if they do not like the bargain , a mute goes along with the janizaries , and does the mens business with a bowstring , if they do not cheat them , and save them the labour by making use of his own bed-cords , before they come nigh when he first hears they are coming and knows their errand tyranny needs no ceremony , but a long sword. these arbitrary cruelties are common in turky , muscovy , and a little ( i fear ) in france , and the priests make them believe they have a jus divinum , and express texts of alcoran ( in english ) holy scripture for all ; but the canons of . are not yet canonical , my lord , nor ever shall if i can help it , though you prosecute me with all the united power , privy whispers , affidavits , verdicts , articles , libels , supplicavits , informations , declarations , suspensions , silencings , jails , and bails , or your severest weapon , namely , ( what the fryar frighted the flys with ) excommunications . but i have by this fair proposal so profitable to you acquit my self in the judgment of all ingenuous men ; for if it be profit , or my money you seek , that i will secure , if you recover by an indifferent jury ; if honour , that is better secur'd , by this proposal : for it can be no honour to you , if you dare not try the cause before ( not a pitckt jury for the nonce ) but such a jury as is indifferently return'd upon other tryals . and if nothing will prevail with you but you 'l keep the catching hold you have got , nor listen to any thing but revenge , revenge , except i make dishonourable and base submissions , then scabbard ! be gone — fight on — be bold , and let him fall that first says — hold , i believe you do not read my books , for if you had impartially weighed the th . page of naked truth second part . second edition , i should have been more in your books then the canons and constitutions forty . read hen. . . or acts. . . . against spiritual-apostolical-persons medling with temporal councels and employments , disdain not to bedrawn out of a pit with rags — and do by me as you would be done by , when time shall serve ; for these contests are but a kind of hot-cockles , there will be no sport if we do not lye down in our turns ; especially when i prophesy so right , why , and how , and who it is that smote me . neither despise nor reject with scorn the good admonitions in this letter ; if i had not lov'd you well , and better than you deserve at my hands , i would not have bestowed so much pains upon you . but there is seldome a greater plague attending greatness than the flattery of their own judgments and conceits , as well as the flattery of sycophants without ; but what non-sense is it ? the king can make a man a knight , but he cannot make the knight one jot the wiser or more learmed ( he may be the poorer ) for his title : the king can make a bishop , but all the kings in christendome cannot with the lord convey learning and wisdom , but usually less ; for a lord-bishop has more diversions from his studies and books , by attending councils , and parliaments , and confirmations , and procurations , and visitations , promotions , suits and vexations , that it is next to impossible that he can study so much as a country vicar . robert grotshead , bishop of lincoln , writ a letter monitory to the pope , and the distance betwixt them two was was far greater than betwixt your lordship and my self ; nay , abbot bernard chid pope eugenius , and call'd him all to naught ; — the world is the better for these letters though pope eugenius was hardned in wickedness , and incorrigible , till the council of constance took him in hand conven'd him before them , imprison'd and unpop't the old gentleman , a● an adulterer , sodomite , symoniacks , &c. i am sure of one good event of this letter , namely i have acquit my self in my own conscience that i have thus studied the way of peace as well as truth — and by my fair proposal for a new tryal ; but if you reject it you get nothing but my bones when you catch them ; but the honour will be mine , in that you will seem to be convicted in your own conscience , that if i have fair play , i must worst you , having six to one against you , six honest witnesses to one little infamous one — that has not the docility or memory of a parrot or magotte-pye . for all men that have any briskishness of spirit are herein like tennis-balls , which you may safely handle and play with , nay , toss and bandy too sometimes ; but if nothing will serve your turn but with violence to throw them right down , or down-right , 't is odds , if they do not rebound , and hit you in the face with eagerness answerable to the impetuosity . and if no other councils but what are violent , will reach your ears and heart — go on — in time you will find ( as to tennis ) i will return your very best with excellent design , and perhaps into your hazzard — or — hit the hazard of your partners and partakers ; nay , i will write your epitath , that in memory of your conquest , and how obtained , shall outlast your tomb , and celebrate your name and fame to posterity ; though i cannot say , but it might have been more honourable to you to sport with flora ( as now do you ) at 〈◊〉 , then to be a promoter ( by my pen recorded for ) a promoter . for every thing has two handles , if a prudent man cannot hold it by one , he can certainly hold it by the other — nay ; even when he falls he falls but like a dye , which slur'd or cog'd or thrown which way you will , always rests on a true side and right bottom ; it is true i suffer , but the original sins was yours , in that illegal sequestration , and the justifying that first and worst canon of the constitutions of forty . thus am i whipt upon others backs that deserves the lash more then my self : sometimes you hold up to the men of doctors commons ( as promoter ) and they slash me with suspensions , excommunication ; and sometimes they take turn and hold me up to you by swearing against me , and then you swing'd me with supplicavit , affidavits , outragious verdicts ; between you both , i have had a good time out , i thank you ( with twelve men to help you ) pay'd me off to some tune at — chelmesford . now if you would be but as good to me as you were to the men of doctors-commons , the employment would be less drudgery , and more honourable ) as being a piece of justice for which the nation would call you blessed — namely — that you would turn promoter or informer against them for their many and impudent , dayly exetortions and oppressions of the kings subjects 'till they groan again — or , if that will not please you — do but hold them up to me — see how i 'le make them frisk again — yet — a little nearer — yet nearer — let mee but have them within my reach , and i will so chastise them , that the whole kingdom shall joy in me . but i confess to your lorship i do not like the sport , i had rather be quiet , if you and they would suffer me to rest , my lord , your lordships ( humble as well as ) humbled servant edm : hickeringill post-script . since i writ this , i missing of mr. firman , ( whom i never saw ) — carryed this letter my self intending to present it , as well as write it , with my own hand — but your porter and maid ( all the family i could find at london-house ) told me that you kept not hospitality there , but was gone to your country-house , for this summer , i know not how well to get it to your hands , nor how , nor when i shall have your answer , i going home to morrow , and therefore have order'd it to be printed , hoping that way it will not miscarry , ( whatever the manuscript may do ) which i have this day sent to you by the porter . and yet both may miscarry , for i could never yet find that you did ever read my letters , except to cavil at them , and produce my very apologies as evidence against me ; for my part i know not how to deal with you , you are too cunning for me , ( i am sure ) too powerful and when the quarrel first began about this tantivee , heylins , manwarings , sybthorp , lauds principle and canon , you did so espouse the cause against me and the good old cause and was so angry , that before the mayor and aldermen of colchester ( if you could have disgrac't me thereby ) you passionately said — that you never desired more to talk with me . for , ( i confess ) i was pretty warm upon you for your lambeth-canons , and you 〈…〉 not have netled me worse than to fright me ( with what the late loyal-long-parliament in their said address to his majesty confessed to be a terror to them , and grief of heart to his majesties subjects ) to hear of a manwaring , a heylin , a laud , a syhthorp , rediviv'd , or their canons or principles so destructive to the fundamental laws or the good old cause . but you are so seldom resident at london ( the great episcopal workhouse for a bishop of london's presence and residence ) and at fulham the greatest part of the year , that if you would admit a conference with me ( which would be good for both of us ) yet i know not how to obtain it , except i go to fulham , which is out of my way ( and so will be ) till you come to london , where the perpetual residence of a bishop of london is absolutely necessary , ( especially , since the new-buildings have almost doubled your diocess ) that if you had nothing to do there , but only to bishop or confirm all saints and all souls therein , if you were as high and great ( and i believe you are now past ( the age of ) growing , but if you were now as great ) as the giant bryareus that had hands , they would all be too little for the performance of ( one single episcopal badge ) the confirmation in the common-prayer-book . nor does the rubrick say , that men are bound to take a pair of oars , and go by water to fulham to be confirmed — as if men were dipt with the error anabaptistical , and thought it necessary to go to heaven by water , ( more then needs . ) surely , you came lately from reading the eucomiums given to laud by that blind ( in a double-sence ) that old tantivee-bard — peter heylin , upon that archbishop , and i would not have you ( whom i love so well ) to be so ambitious as to desire to be his successor , ( though ) to follow his steps : i hope you will be wiser before you come to the grave ; they are dangerous steps for you — believe me. the conclvsion . this letter is the quintessence and epitome of the whole book , and may ( for a shift ) serve those that will not or cannot find leisure to read the whole book , and though writ raptim , and in haste , yet ( though i say it that should not say it ) worthy for the matter to be writ in letters of gold , and transmitted to all posterity ; the subject is so good , so seasonable , and so needful to be handled . for however it happen to work doubtfully upon teagues and irish-tories , and slavish prostituted and hackney-pamphleteers ; ( whose only religion is their gain ) yet i doubt not but it has sufficient vertue in it to convert all english tories and tantivees , that are not sworn-slaves , and make them perfect whiggs : whose numbers increase daily ( they are never the fewer for me and this contest with the bishop ) and multiply wonderfully ; and so will still , when things are well-consider'd , and impartially-weighed , according to our ancient , honourable , safe , and most excellent english frame , and constitution of government ; our kings are kings of france , but ( god forbid ) they should be like the french king ; then indeed ( as the tantivee-preacher ratled it ) our very souls would not be our own , nor ( scarcely ) would god be suffered quietly to enjoy them , as his share , but all would be caesars , our estates , our libertiet , our children , our lands , our lives and our wives ; and then , what shall we have ? nay , what shall god have ? if all be caesars ? such tantivee-fops and senceless preaching-sots deserve to be hang'd , and till some of them be so served , or , made exampels of , we shall never be freed of these english incendiaries ; ( tory-pulpiteers , and tory pamphleteers ) but be ruin'd ( twice in an age ) with one and the same plagues and pests . and work ( as negroes do in barbadoes ) by day for their masters , and at night lie with their wives to get slaves for their masters too : and is it not better to have no charters , no priviledges , then to serve a weary apprentyship and give money to boot , for our freedom , and yet hold them by no surer tenure , then till a courtier be displeas'd , or wants money ? and as for ecclesiastical courts , if car. . . be in force , and was never repealed , and that the car. . . ( repealing car. . ) can never be construed to repeal , car. . then what force have they or power toward , impose or inflict any pain , penalty , &c. nor did they , or durst they inflict any pain or penalty ( as loath to venture l. for every offence ) nor did they censure any , till car. . . repealed car. . . but if it did not repeal car. . . as it is evident upon the parliament roll , it is car. . . that repeals the branch of eliz. — i think they have brought their hogs to a fine market , and stand liable for all the mischief they have done , to souls , to bodies , and to bones . i believe some in the parliament ( at least did intend ) to repeal car. . . but if it be ( as it is a great mistake ) it is fatal , and not to be remedied , but by a parliament , and if ever they should be so bold and daring as to inflict any penalty upon me — have at them for the .l . besides , i doubt not but edw. . . is in force ; for though it is repeal'd by mar. . yet that mar. . is repeal'd by jacob. . and samson is unbound again remoto impedimento revivescit ; and herewith agreeth the book-case in . ed. . tit . petition placit . . coke mag . chart , . 't is true that : jacob two questions were moved , first whether any bishops made especially since the first day of that first sessions of parliament . jacob. were lawful or no. . whether the proceedings in the ecclesiastical-courts , being made under the name stile and seal of the bishop were warranted by law ? the chief justices agreed that edw. . . was in force — for though the act . eliz. . revive the . hen. . . which empowers bishops to act as formerly , ( and consequently or obliquely the ed. . . is struck at ) yet can any man in his right wits imagine that it is either true or safe , that a statute should be repealed obliquely , and by consequence without the least thought thereof in the legislators ? this would be of most dangerous consequence . but the legislators could not think of repealing that which was actually and expresly at that time repealed already by . mar. . nor of repealing the ed. . . by . and . phil. and mar. . which was repealed already by mar. and . . phil. mar. that does not repeal ed. . . by name and consequents will not do , nor inferences , this is tricks and wiredrawing , to defeat a statute-law by finess or nicety of wit , or lawyers-criticisms . and therefore there is no need of flying to eliz. . for the repeal af . . phil. mar. . yet the judges generally extrajudicially were of another opinion . the case deserves the resolution of the judges in open-court , or in a parliament , or both ; an extrajudicial judgment then has been in jan and july and the judges gave their opinions as the bishops best liked , ( dr. laud especially ) but the same judges also to please him , were for the legallity of ship-money , and customes ( unsetled by parliament ) see appendix of dr. godolphins abridgment of laws . and coke instit . c. . p. . . the lord coke was overawed by the high-commission court , now the law is not in awe , though the gentleman that gives this narrative of the said tryall did not take it in short-hand ( he that has so vast a memory shall not need ) nor yet is willing to be known to be the author of these observations ; not that there is a a word or line in this book that he is not prompt , and at hand and ( to chuse ) willing to justifie , if any dare be so bold , daring and impudent , or so very ignorant as to oppose these profitable and well known truths , backt with the gospel and the law ; ha ? let me have no grumbling — you may whisper , point , make dumb-shows and signs ; but — i will have no grumbling aloud . but he is not willing to put his name to this book as author , yet nevertheless ( according to the common-custome of learned authors that preface their works with their own pictures or effigies ( they shall not need neither , some of them are not so handsom● , no more then the course face of this blunt author ) nevertheless the author ( to humour the common vanity ) gave me leave to give you part of his effigies , or a halfe-face of him , pourtray'd as followeth ( not in his first but last page of his book ) ( if you be oediposses ) you may soon unriddle the aenigma ; the author has a soul so great — i 'le say no more on 't — but as for his fancy and invention the whole creation is so immediately at its beck , that ( like chambers to be let ready furnished ) it never wants apt epithites , metaphors , or expressions to elucidate the thoughts of his weightier matter and judgment . but ( which are seldom pairs in one man ) his memory ( ay , that , that same — his memory ) like the french king , seizes all it can lay hold off , right or wrong : or like the men that drive the commons , impounds all that comes to hand — or , like a drag net , it sweeps all , and retains all , the good , the bad , but what its better judgment purposely waves and throws away , or like a serjeant , a bum , a snap , a trap , or a right english-mastive never lets go its hold , except the piece come out , when it has once laid hold ; and married , coupled or matcht with a body so perfect a slave to the greater soul , that it never tyres or playes the jade when set at work sometimes unmercifully and most tyrannically us'd , and yet the willing slave , like good horses , keeps it's self in good case , tight and in good plight , & for a sinner , if it were not sometimes priest-ridden , or rid with the spiritual incubus , or night-mare , i say , for so great a sinner — well to live-plump & fat - desiderantur caetera . thus have i with a pen , not pencil drawn the authors-picture ; and there is in some men's styles as in faces and features , such peculiar idioties and distinguishing ayres from all others , that it is needless to write the authors-name ( as was , over dull painting , accustomed of old ) — this is cock , this a bull. for the notoriety is as easie and remarkable , as a pick't jury , or a tory sheriff , or a hunted deer , that may indeed ( endeavouring shelter ) a while be concealed amongst the crowd , but any easie sagacity may single him out from the common herd . but do not you , ( ye weekly libellers and dirty pamphleteers ! ) do not you prophane any more this effigies ; especially trusty roger , mr. observator ! tremble at aspersion , least the villanous attempt you made against the printers widow , ( now mr d — s wife ) rise up in judgment against you , to her unspotted honour , and your strange and unheard of villany , look too 't — and d●re not to bring your works of darkness to light , the modest gentlewoman , which your goatship would have prophan'd , is yet alive to attest your villany , though you promis'd her , that , if she would consent to your goatship , or towzers heat ( above the rage of dog days ) you would , being then press-master , permit her to print all the quakers books and unlicensed pamphlets — only she should lay them aside before your coming to make a search , of which you would give her timely notice . ah! villainy — to make the kings favour and trust in trusty roger , a pimp to trusty rogers goatish lust ; oh tantivees — blush at your observator , do not hereafter ( ye reading don 's of the pulpit ! ) do not hereafter take matter out of his weekly pamphlets for your reading lectures in a country-church — blush at your whory , roary , scory , tory observator ; of which , mr. observator , i cannot but , in kindness to you , make this observation , to check , if possible ) your prophane billingsgate ; as if you were — sworn seavinger as well as pensioner to the tories and tantivees — but i spare you at present — however deface not this pourtrayture — this is no common effigies , nor every mans share — this is not the face of an hermophrodite or lay-vicar ( false and base , as treacherous and low — exton — what ? prefer the favour of a bishop before hickeringill ? it is a sin to cast dirt upon this medal : but if any silly tory or unthinking tantivee be so fool-hardy , he knows he may , in just requital , expext ( but that they are not worthy ) a whiggish mvshroom . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e ☜ ☜ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☜ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☜ ☞ ☜ ☜ ☞ ☜ notes for div a -e see the declaration of the middlesex justices : * bonifac. a. ca. conc. lambeth . . h. . . conc. lamb. sim. islepe . ar. can. . ed. . . ☞ another merlin , another merlin . episcopus non potest petere à subditis , nisi probaverit ea sibi debere per canones . con. othob . domus . etiam lynd wood provinc . hosea . . because thou hast rejected knowledg , i also will reject thee , that thou shall be no priest to me . hos . . , , , , . quae ignorantia multò magis detestanda esset in episcopo , seu majori prelato . lynd. con. otho . sacer. ord. verb. illiteratos . historic . collect. vol. . p. . ☞ ☞ job . , . job . , . psal . . . psal . . , . psal . . . ps . . , . psal . . , . psal . . , , , , , , . psal . . , , , , , . psal . . . psal . . , , , , , . psal . . ☜ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ mantoarings sentence . . . . . . . ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ ☞ notes for div a -e ☞ witchcrafts, strange and wonderfull: discovering the damnable practices of seven witches, against the lives of certaine noble personages, and others of this kingdome, as shall appeare in this lamentable history. ; with an approved triall how to finde out either witch or any apprentice to witch-craft.. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). b stc . estc s ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. b ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) witchcrafts, strange and wonderfull: discovering the damnable practices of seven witches, against the lives of certaine noble personages, and others of this kingdome, as shall appeare in this lamentable history. ; with an approved triall how to finde out either witch or any apprentice to witch-craft.. flower, margaret, d. . [ ] p. : ill. by m.f. for thomas lambert at the horshooe neere the hospitall gate in smithfield., imprinted at london, : .. title page has wood-cut illustration. attributed by stc ( nd ed.) to margaret flower. reproduction of original in: university of glasgow. library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng flower, margaret, d. . flower, philippa, d. . greene, ellen. baker, anne. willimot, joane. sutton, mary, d. . witches -- england -- early works to . trials (witchcraft) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - john pas sampled and proofread - john pas text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion witchcrafts , strange and wonderfull : discovering the damnable practises of seven witches , against the lives of certaine noble personages , and other of this kingdome , as shall appeare in this lamentable history . with an approved triall how to finde out either witch , or any apprentise to witch-craft . depiction of witches imprinted at london , by m. f. for thomas lambert at the horshooe neere the hospitall gate in smithfield . . witchcrafts , strange and wonderfull . my meaning is not to make any contentious arguments about the discourses , distinction or definition of witch-craft , the power of deuills , the nature of spirits , the force of charmes , the secrets of incantation , and such like ; because the scriptures are full of prohibitions to this purpose , and proclaimes death to the presumptuous attempters of the same : besides , both princes , ( yea , our owne learned and most judicious king ) philosophers , poets , chronologers , historiographers , and many worthy writers , have concurred and concluded in this ; that divers impious and facinorous mischiefes have beene effectuated through the instruments of the deuil , by permission of god , so that the actors of the same have carried away the opinion of the world , to doe that which they did by witch-craft ; or at least to be esteemed witches , for bringing such and such things to passe : for howsoever , the learned have charactered delinquents in this kinde , by titles of sundry sorts , and most significant attributes ; as pythonissae , dealing with artificiall charmes ; magi , anciently reputed so , for extraordinary wisedome and knowledge in the secrets of simples , and hearbes ; chaldei famous for astronomie , and astrologie ; negromancers , for practising to raise dead bodies , and by them to foretell euents of the earth ; geomantici , for conversing with spirits , and using incantations ; genethliaci , for presuming on the calculating of nativities ; or , if you will , assuming the credit of figure-casting ; ventriloqui , for speaking with hollow voyces , as if they were possessed with devills ; venefici , for dealing with poyson , and either killings , or curing that way : for you must understand , however the professors aforesaid , practise murther and mischiefe ; yet many times , they pretend cures and preservation ; with many others , carrying the shew of great learning and admired knowledge ; yet have they all but one familiar terme with us in english , called witches . as for the conceit of wise-men , or wise-women , they are all meerely coseners and deceivers ; so that if they make you beleeve , that by their meanes you shall heare of things lost or stolne , it is either done by confederacie , or put off by protraction , to deceive you of your money . onely ( as i said before ) there bee certaine men and women growne in yeares , and over-growne with melancholie and atheisme , who out of a malicious disposition against their betters or others thriving by them ; but most times from a heart-burning desire of revenge , having entertained some impression of displeasure , and unkindnesse , studie nothing but mischiefe and exoticke practises of loathsome arts and sciences : yet i must needs say , that sometimes the fained reputation of wisedome , cunning , and to be reputed a dangerous & skilfull person , hath so prevailed with divers , that they have taken upon them indeed to know more than god ever afforded any creature , and to performe no lesse than the creator both of heaven and earth ; making you beleeve with medea , that they can raise tempests , turne the sunne into blood , pull the moone out of her sphere , and saile ouer the sea in a cockell shell , according to the poet : flectere si neueam superos , acheronta movebo . if art doe faile to move the gods consent unto my minde : i will the devils raise , to doe what they can in their kinde . but howsoever speciall persons are transported with an opinion of their owne worth , & prevailing in this kinde , yet by lamentable experience , we know too wel , what monstrous effects have been produced , even to the horror of the hearers , and damnation , of their owne soules , by such kinde of people : for as it is in the tale of the envious man , that put out one of his eyes to have his companion lose both ; so fareth it with them and worse , to give away their soules to be revenged of their adversaries bodies , where in the monstrous subtlety of the devill is so apparent , that it is wonderfull one way to relate , and lamentable another way to observe the same . for no sooner shall such motives poyson the inward conceit or apprehension of such damnable caitiffes : but then steppeth forth the devill , and not onely sheweth them the way , but prescribeth the manner of effecting the same , with facility and easinesse , assuring that bee himselfe will attend them in some familiar shape of rat , cat , toad , bird , cricket , &c. yea effectuate whatsoever they shal demand or desire ; and for their better assurance and corroboration of their credulity they shall have palpable and forcible touches of sucking , pinching , kissing , closing , colling , and such like . whereupon , without any feare of god or man , knowledge of christ , hope of redemption , confidence of mercy , or true beliefe , that there is any other thing to be looked after but this present world ; according to that atheisticall position of epicurus : ede , bibe , lude , post mortem nulla voluptas . eat , drinke , sport , play , and take thy pleasures rest : for after death who knowes what shall be best . they admit of those execrable conditions of commutation of soules for the entertaining of the spirits , and so fall to their abominable practises , continuing in the same till god laugh them to scorne , and will by no meanes suffer them to abuse his holy name , nor deceive others by their prophane lives any longer : witnesse for the generall , those infinite treatises of many of them convinced by law , and condemned to death , to the fearefull example of all carnall and hypocriticall christians : but more especially you may over-looke ( if you please ) that learned discourse of daemonology , composed in forme of a dialogue , by the high and mighty prince , iames by the grace of god , king of england , scotland , france , and ireland , &c. and printed ( as i take it ) according to the copie of edenburgh , . as also a treatise of witch-craft made by that learned mr. alexander roberts , preacher at kings-linne in norfolke , , upon the discovery of the witchcrafts of mary smith , wife of henry smith glover , with her vocall contract between the devill and her selfe , in solemne termes , and such like imposturing filthinesse ; with many hurts and mischiefes which thereby she procured . as also a certaine discovery . made by iohn cotta doctor of physicke in northampton , of empericks , women about sicke persons , quacksalvars , and fugitives , which seeme to worke iugling wonders ; surgeons , apothecaries , practisers by spels , the true discovery of witch-craft , especially in the sicke , with many instances of that kinde : wizards , and servants of physicians , who may be called , ministring helpers : to this he hath added , the methodian learned deceiver , or heretick physician ; astrologers , ephemerides-masters , conjecters by urine , travellers : and last of all , the true artist his right description and election . as also a dialogue concerning witches and witch-craft , composed by george gifford , minister of gods word in maldon , . wherein the cunning of the devill is discovered , both concerning the deceiving of witches , and seducing of others into many great errors : as also an ancient discourse of the fearefull practises of foure notorious french witches , with the manner of their strange execution . as also the severall and damnable practises of mother sutton of milton mills in the county of bedford , and mary sutton her daughter , who were arraigned , condemned and executed for the same . as also , . the wonderfull discovery of witches in lancashire , being . in number , notorious for many infamed actions , and conuicted before sir iames altham , and sir edward bromley , barons of the exchequer : together with the arraignement and triall of iennet preston at yorke , with her fearefull execution for the murthering of mr. lister by witch-craft , with infinite other relations concerning the generall conuiction of witches , & their practises , & condemnation of the particular opinion of some men , who suppose there be none at all , or at least , that they doe not personally or truely effect such things as are imputed unto them , and which out of some dangerous impression of melancholy , vaine glory , or some other diseased operation , they assume to themselves by reason of a former contract with the devill . and so much for the certainty of story , and fearefulnesse of the truth concerning the damnable practises of witches , and cunning of the devill to deceiue them . but yet because the minde of man may be carried away with many idle conjectures , either that women confessed these things by extremity of torture , or that ancient examples are by this time forgotten ( although the particulars are upon record , for the benefit of all posterity : ) or that they were besides themselves , or subject to some weake device or other ; rather to bring in question the integrity of justice , than to make odious the lives of such horrible offenders : i have presumed to present on the stage of verity , for the good of my countrey , and the love of truth , the late wofull tragedie of the destruction of the right honourable the earle of rutlands children , who ( to his eternall praise ) proceeded yet both religiously and charitably against the offenders , leaving their prosecution to the law , and submitting himselfe and deplorable case to the providence of god , who afflicteth his best servants with punishments , and many times , sendeth extraordinary vengeance as well on the innocent , as the bad deserver , to manifest his glory : therefore by way of caution i aduise thee ( gentle reader ) whatsoever thou art , to take heed how thou doest either despise the power of god in his creatures , or vilipend the subtletic and fury of the devill , as gods instrument of vengeance , considering that truth in despight of gaine-sayers will prevaile , according to that principle ; magna est veritas & praevalebit . the story followes . after the right honourable sir francis manners succeeded his brother in the earledome of rutland : and so not onely tooke possession of beaver castle , but of all other his demeanes , lordships , townes , mannors , lands , and revenues appropriate to the same earledome : he proceeded so honourably in the course of his life , as neither displacing tenants , discharging servants , nor denying the accesse of the poore ; but welcomming of strangers , and performing all the duties of a noble lord , that he fastened as it were unto himselfe the love and good opinion of the countrey ; wherein hee walked the more cheerfully and remarkably , because his honourable countesse marched arme in arme with him in the same race : so that beaver castle was a continuall palace of entertainement , and a dayly receptacle for all sorts both rich and poore , especially such ancient people as neighboured the same : amongst whom , one ioan flower with her daughters , margaret and phillip , were not onely releeved at the first from thence , but quickly entertained as chair-women , and margaret admitted as a continuall dweller in the castle , looking both to the poultrey abroad , and the wash-house within doores : in which life they continued with equall correspondency , till something was discovered to he noble lady , which concerned the misdemeanour of these women . and although such honourable persons shall not want of all sorts of people , either to bring them newes , tales , reports , or to serve their turne in all offices whatsoever ; so that it may well be said of them , as it is of great kings and princes , that they have large hands , wide eares , and piercing sights , to discover the unswept corners of their remotest confines , to reach even to their farthest borders , and to understand the secrets of their meanest subjects : yet in this matter , neither were they busie-bodies , flatterers , malicious politicians , underminers , nor supplanters one of anothers good fortune : but went simply to worke , as regarding the honour of the earle and his lady , and so by degrees gave light to their understanding to apprehend their complaints . first , that ioane flower the mother , was a monstrous malicious woman , full of oathes , curses , and imprecations irreligious and for any thing they saw by her , a plaine atheist : besides , of late dayes , her very countenance was estranged , her eyes were fiery and hollow , her speech fell and envious , her demeanour strange and exoticke , and her conversation sequestred ; so that the whole course of her life gave great suspition that she was a notorious witch : yea , some of her neighbours dared to affirme , that she dealt with familiar spirits , and terrified them all with curses and threatning of revenge , if there were never so little cause of displeasure and unkindnesse . concerning margaret , that shee often resorted from the castle to her mother , bringing such provision as they thought was unbefitting for a servant to purloine , and comming at such unseasonable houres , that they could not but conjecture some mischiefe betweene them , and that their extraordinary riot and expences tended both to rob the lady , and to maintaine certaine debausht and base company , which frequented this ioane flowers house the mother , and specially her youngest daughter . concerning phillip , that she was lewdly transported with the love of one thomas sympson , who presumed to say , that she had bewitched him ; for he had no power to leave her , and was ( as hee supposed ) maruellously altered both in minde and bodie , since her acquainted company . these complaints began many yeares before either their conviction , or publike apprehension : notwithstanding , such was the honour of this earle and his lady ; such was the cunning of this monstrous woman in observation towards them ; such was the subtlety of the devill to bring his purposes to passe : such was the effect of a damnable womans wit and malicious envy , that all things were carried away in the smooth channel of liking and good entertainment on every side , untill the earle by degrees conceived some mislike against her ; and so , peradventure estranged himselfe from that familiarity and accustomed conferences hee was wont to have with her : untill one peake offered her some wrong ; against whom she complained , but found that my lord did not affect her clamorous and malicious information : untill one mr. vavasor abandoned her company , as either suspicious of her lewd life , or distasted with his owne misliking of such base and poore creatures , whom no body loved but the earles houshold ; untill the countesse misconceiving of her daughter margaret , and discoverig some undecencies both in her life and neglect of her businesse , discharged her from lying any more in the castle , yet gave her forty shillings , a bolster , and a mattresse of wooll ; commanding her to goe home ; untill the slacknesse of her repayring to the castle , as she was wont , did turne her love and liking toward this honourable earle and his family , into hate and rancour : whereupon despighted to be so neglected , and exprobrated by her neighbours for her daughters casting out of doores , and other conceived displeasures , shee grew past all shame and womanhood , and many times cursed them all that were the cause of this discontentment , and made her so loathsome , to her former familiar friends & beneficiall acquaintance . when the devill perceived the in ficious disposition of this wretch , and that she and her daughters might easily be made instruments to inlarge his kingdome , and be as it were the executioners of his vengeance ; not caring whether it lighted upon innocents or no , hee came more neerer unto them , and in plaine termes , to come quickly to the purpose , offered them his service , and that in such a manner as they might easily command what they pleased : for hee would attend you in such pretty formes of dog , cat , or rat , that they should neither be terrified , nor any body else suspitious of the matter . vpon this they agree ; and ( as it should see me ) give away their soules for the service of such spirits , as he had promised them ; which filthy conditions were ratified with abominable kisses , and an odious sacrifice of blood , not leaving out certaine charmes and conjurations , with which the deuill deceived them , as though nothing could be done without ceremony , and a solemnity of orderly ratification . by this time doth satan triumph , and goeth away satisfied to have caught such fish in the net of his illusions : by this time are those women devills incarnate , and grow proud againe in their cunning and artificiall power to doe what mischiefe they listed : by this time they learne the manner of incantations , spells , and charmes : by this time they kill what cattell they list , and under the covert of flattery and familiar entertainement , keepe hidden the stinging serpent of malice , and a venomous inclination to mischiefe : by this time is the earle and his family threatned , and must feele the burthen of a terrible tempest , which from these womens devilish devises fell upon him , he neither suspecting nor understanding the same : by this time both himselfe and his honourable countesse are many times subject to sicknesse and extraordinary convulsions , which they taking as gentle corrections from the hand of god , submit with quietnesse to his mercy , and study nothing more , then a glorifie their creator in heaven , and beare his crosses on earth . at last , as malice increased in these damnable women ; so his family felt the smart of their revenge and inficious disposition . for his eldest sonne henry lord rosse sickened very strangely , and after a while died : and his next , named francis lord rosse , accordingly , was severely tormented by them and most barbarously and inhumanely tortured by a strange sickenesse : not long after the lady katherine was set upon by their dangerous and divellish practises , and many times in great danger of life ; through extreame maladies and unusuall fits . nay ( as it should seeme , and they afterward confessed ) both the earle and his countesse were brought into their snares as they imagined , and indeed determined to keepe them from having any more children . oh unheard of wickenesse and mischievous damnation ! notwithstanding all this did the noble earle attend his majesty , both at new-market before christmas , and at christmas at whitehall ; bearing the losse of his children most nobly , and little suspecting that they had miscarried by witch-craft , or such like inventions of the devill , untill it pleased god to discover the villanous practises of these bad women , and to command the devill from executing any further vengeance on innocents , but leave them to their shames , and the hands of justice , that they might not onely be confounded for their villanous practises , but remaine as a notorious example to all ages of his judgement and fury . thus were they apprehended about christmas ; and carried to lincolne jayle , after due examination before sufficient justices of the peace , and discreet magistrates , who wondered at their audacious wickednesse ; but ioan flower the mother , before conviction ( as they say ) called for bread and butter , and wished it might never goe through her if shee were guilty of that whereupon she was examined ; so mumbling it in her month , never spake more words after , but fell downe and died as she was carried to lincolne jayle , with an horrible excrutiation of soule and body , and was buried at ancaster . when the earle heard of their apprehensions , hee hasted downe with his brother sir george , and sometimes examining them himselfe , and sometimes sending them to others ; at last left them to the triall of the law , before the judges of assize at lincolne ; and so they were convicted of murther , and executed accordingly , about the . of march , to the terror of all the beholders , and example of such dissolute and abhominable creatures : and because yee shall have both cause to glorifie god for this discovery , and occasion to apprehend the strangenesse of their lives , and truth of their proceedings : i thought it both meet and convenient to lay open their owne examinations and evidences against one another , with the manner of their proceeding and revenges , with other particulars belonging to the true and plaine discovery of their villany and witch-craft . the examination of anne baker of bottesford in the county of leicester spinster , taken march . . by the right honorable francis earle of rutland , sir george manners knight two of his majesties iustices of the peace for the county of lincolne , and samuel fleming doctor of divinity , one of his majesties iustices of the peace for the county of leicester aforesaid . shee saith , that there are foure colours of planets , blacke , yellew , greene , and blew : and that blacke is alwayes death , and that she saw the blew planet strike thomas fairebarne , the eldest sonne unto william fairebarne , of bottesford aforesaid by the pinsold there , within the which time the said william fairebarne did beat her and brake her head , whereupon the said thomas fairebarne did mend . and being asked who did send that planet ? answered it was not i. further she saith , that she saw a hand appeare unto her , and that shee heard a voyce in the aire said unto her , anne baker , save thy selfe , for to morrow thou and thy master must bee slaine : and the next day her master and she were in a cart together ; and suddenly shee saw a flash of fire , and shee said her prayers , and the fire went away and shortly after a crow came and picked upon her cloathes , and shee said her prayers againe , and bade the crow goe to whom hee was sent and the crow went unto her master , and did beat him to death , and she with her prayers recovered him to life ; but he was sicke a fortnight after , and saith , that if she had not had more knowledge then her master , both hee and shee and all the cattell had beene slaine . being examined concerning a childe of anne stannidge , which shee was suspected to have bewitched to death ; saith , the said anne stannidge did deliver her childle into her hands , and that she did lay it upon her skirt , but did no harme unto it : and being charged by the mother of the childe , that upon the burning of the haire and the pairing of the nailes of the said childe , the said anne baker came in and set her downe , and for one houres space could speake nothing , confesseth she came into the house of the said anne stannidge in great paine , but did not know of the burning of the haire and nailes of the said childe ; but said shee was so sicke that shee did not know whither she went. being charged that shee bewitched elizabeth hough , the wife of william hough to death , for that she angred her in giving her almes of her second bread ; confesseth that shee was angry with her and said she might have given her of her better bread , for she had gone too often on her errands , but more she saith not . this examinate confesseth that she came to ioane gylles house , her childe being sicke , and that shee intreated this examinate to looke on her childe , and to tell her whether it was forespoken or no , and this examinate said it was forespoken ; but when the said childe died she cannot tell . and being asked concerning nortley carrying of his childe home unto his owne house , where the said anne baker was , she asked him who gave the said childe that loafe , hee told her anthony gill , to whom this examinate said , he might have had a childe of his owne if hee would have sought in time for it ; which words she confessed she did speake . being blamed by henry mills in this sort ; a fire set on you , i have had two or three ill nights : to whom she made answere , you should have let me alone then , which she confesseth . the said anne baker , march . . confesseth before samuel fleming doctor of divinity , that about . yeares agoe , she went into northamptonshire , and that at her comming backe againe one peakes wife and denis his wife of belvoyre told her that my young l. henry was dead , and that there was a glove of the said lord buried in the ground ; and as that glove did rot and wast , so did the liver of the said lord rot and wast . further she said , march , . before sir george manners knight , and samuel fleming doctor of divinity , that she hath a spirit which hath the shape of a white dogge , which she calleth her good spirit . samuel fleming test . the examination of ioane willimot , taken the . of february , in the . yeare of the reigne of our soveraigne lord iames , over england king , &c. and over scotland the . before alexander amcots esquire , one of his majistise iustices of the peace of the said parts and county . this examinat saith , that ioane flower told her that my lord of rutland had dealt badly with her , and that they had put away her daughter , and that although shee could not have her will of my lord himselfe , yet she had spied my lords sonne , and had strick on him to the heart . and shee saith , that my lords sonne was stricken with a white spirit , and that she can cure some that send unto her , and that some reward her for her paines , and of some she taketh nothing . shee further saith , that upon friday night last , her spirit came to her and told her , that there was a bad woman at deeping who had given her soule to the devill : and that her said spirit did then appeare unto her in a more ugly for me then it had formerly done , and that it urged her much to give it something , although it were but a piece of her girdle , and told her that it had taken great paines for her , but shee saith that shee would give it nothing , and told it that shee had sent it to no place , but onely to see how my lord rosse did , and that her spirit told her , that he should doe well . the examination of the said ioane willimot , taken the second day of march , in the yeare above said , before the said alexander amcots . this examinate saith , that shee hath a spirit which shee calleth pretty , which was given unto her by william berry of langholme in rutland shire , whom she served three yeares , and that her master when hee gave it unto her , willed her to open her mouth , and hee would blow into her a fairy which should doe her good ; and that shoe opened her mouth ; and he did blow into her mouth and presently after his blowing , there came out of her mouth a spirit , which stood upon the ground in the shape and forme of a woman , which spirit did aske of her her soule , which shee then promised unto it , being willed thereunto by by her master . she further confesseth , that she never hurt any body , but did helpe divers that sent for her , which were stricken or fore-spoken : and that her spirit came weekely to her and would tell her of divers persons which were stricken and fore spoken . and she saith , that the use which shee had of the spirit was to know , how those did which shee had undertaken to amend ; and that she did helpe them by certaine prayers which shee used , and not by her owne spirit : neither did she imploy her spirit in any thing , but onely to bring word how those did which she had undertaken to cure . and she further saith , that her spirit came unto her this last night ( as shee thought ) in the forme of a woman , mumbling , but shee could not understand what it said . and being asked whether shee were not in a dreame or slumber when shee thought she saw it , she said no , and that she was as walking as at this present . alexander amoors . thomas robinson . test . the examination of joane willimot of goadby in the county of leicester widow , taken the . of march , . by sir henry hastings knight , and samuel fleming doctor of divinity , two of his majesites iustices of the peace of the said county of leicester . she saith , that she told one cookes wife , of stathorne in the said county labourer , that iohn patchet might have had his child alive , if he would haue sought forth for it in time , and if it were not death stricken in her wayes , and that patchets wife had an evill thing within her , which should make an end of her , and that she knew by her girdle . shee saith further , that gamaliel greete of waltham in the said county shepherd , had a spirit like a white mouse put into him , in his swearing ; and that if hee did looke upon any thing with an intent to hurt , it should be hurt , and that he had marke on his left , arme , which was cut away ; and that her owne spirit did tell her all this before it went from her . further shee saith , that ioane flower , margaret flower , and she , did meet about a weeke before ioane flowers apprehension in blackborrow hill , and went from thence home to the said ioane flowers house and there shee saw two spirits , one like a rat , and the other like an owle ; and one of them did sucke under , her right eare , as she thought : and the said ioane told her , that her spirit did say , she chould neither be hanged nor burnt . further , she saith , that the said ioatie flower did take up some earth and spit upon it , and did worke it with her finger , and put it up into her purse , and said , though she could not hurt the lord himselfe yet she had sped his sonne , which is dead . h. hastings . samuel fleming . the examination of ellen greene of stathorne in the county of leicester , taken the . of march . by sir henry hastings knight , and samuel fleming doctor of divinity . she saith , that one ioane willimot of goadby came about sixe yeares since , to her in the wowlds , and perswaded this examinate to forsake god , and betake her to the devill , and she would give her , two spirits , to which she gave her consent and thereupon the said ioane willimot called two spirits , one in the likenes of a kitlin , and the other of a moldiwarp , the first the said willmot called pusse , the other hiffe , hiffe , and they presently came to her , and she departing left them with this examinate , and they lept on her shoulder , and the kitlin suckt under her right eare on her necke , and the moldiwarp on the left side , in the like place . after they had suckt her , shee sent the kitlin to a baker of that towne , whose name she remembers not , who had called her witch and stricken her ; and bade her said spirit goe and bewitch him to death : the moldiwarp she then bade goe to anne dawse of the same towne , and bewitch her to death , because shee had ; called this examinate witch , whore , jade , &c. and within one fortnight after they both died . and further this examinate saith , that she sent both her spirits to stonesby , to one willison a husband-man , and robert williman a husbandmans sonne , and bade the kitlin goe to willison and bewitch him to death , and the moldiwarp to the other , and bewitch him to death , which they did ; and within ten dayes they died . these foure were bewitched while this examinate dwelt at waltham aforesaid . about three yeares since , this examinate removed thence to stathorne , where she now dwelt : upon a difference betweene the said willimot and the wife of iohn patchet of the said stathorne yeoman , she the said willimot called her this examinate to goe and touch the said iohn patchets wife and her childe , which she did , touching the said iohn patchets wife in her bed , and the child in the grace-wifes armes , and then sent her said spirits to bewitch them to death , which they did , and so the woman lay languishing by the space of a moneth and more , for then she died ; the child died the next day after she touched it . and shee further saith , that the said ioane willimot , had a spirit sucking on her , under the left flanke , in the likenesse of a little white dogge , which this examinate saith , that shee saw the same sucking in barley-harvest last , being then at the house of the said ioane willimot , and for her selfe , this examinate further saith , that she gave her soule , the deuill , to have these spirits at her command ; for a confirmation whereof , she suffered them to sucke her alwayes as aforesaid , about the change and full of the moone . h. hastings . samuel fleming . the examination of philip flower , sister of margaret flower , and daughters of ioane flower , before sir william pelham , and master butler , iustices of the peace , february . . which was brought in at the assizes as evidence against her sister margaret . she saith , that her mother and her sister maliced the earle of rutland , his countesse , and cheir children , because her sister margaret was put out of the ladies service of laundry , and exempted from other services about the house , whereupon her said sister ; by the commandement of her mother , brought from the castle the right hand glove of the lord henry rosse , which she delivered to her mother ; who presently rubd it on the backe of her spirit rutterkin , then put it into hot boyling water , afterward she pricked it often , and buried it in the yard , wishing the lord rosse might never thrive , and so her sister margaret continued with her mother , where she often saw the cat rutterkin leape on her shoulder , and suck her neck . shee further confessed , that she heard her mother often curse the earle and his lady , and thereupon would boyle feathers and blood together , using many devillish speeches and strange gestures . the examination of margaret flower . she saith and confesseth , that about foure or five yeare since her mother sent her , for the right hand glove of henry lord rosse , afterward that her mother bade her goe againe into the castle of bever , and bring downe the glove or some other thing of henry lord rosse , and she askt what to doe ? her mother replied , to hurt my lord rosse : whereupon shee brought downe a glove , and delivered the same to her mother , who stroked rutterkin her cat with it ; after it was dipt in hot water , and so prickt it often , after which henry lord rosse fell sicke within a weeke , and was much tormented with the same . shee further faith , that finding a glove about two or three yeares since of francis lord rosse , on a dunghill , shee delivered it to her mother , who put it into hot water and after tooke it out and rubd it on rutterkin the cat , and bad him goe upwards , and after her mother buried it in the yard , and said a mischiefe light on him , but hee will mend againe . shee further saith , that her mother , and shee , and her sister agreed together to bewitch the earle and his lady , that they might have no more children : and being demanded the cause of their malice and ill-will ; shee saith , that about foure yeares since , the countesse ( growing into some mislike with her ) gave her forty shillings , a bolster , and an attresse , and bade her lie at home , and come no more to dwell at the castle ; which she not onely tooke in ill-part , but grudged at it exceedingly , swearing in her heart to be revenged . after this her mother complained to the earle against one peake , who had offred her some wrong , wherein shee conceived that the earle tooke not her part , as she expected , which dislike with the rest , exasperated her displeasure against him , and so she watched an opportunity to bee revenged : whereupon shee tooke wooll out of the said mattresse , and a paire of gloves , which were given her by master vavasor , and put them into warme water , mingling them with some blood , and stirring it together , then shee tooke the wooll and gloves out of the water , and rubd them on the belly of rutterkin her cat , saying , the lord and the lady should have more children , but it would be long first . shee further confesseth , that by her mothers commandment , she brought to her a piece of a handkerchiefe of the lady katherine the earles daughter , and her mother put it into hot water , and then taking it out , rubd it on rutterkin , bidding him flie , and goe ; whereupon rutterkin whined and cried mew : whereupon she said , that rutterkin had no power over the lady katherine to hurt her . another examination of philip flower , before francis earle of rutland , francis lord willoughby of ersby , sir george manners , and sir william pelham . shee confesseth and saith , that shee hath a spirit sucking on her in the forme of a white rat , which keepeth her left breast , and hath so done for three or foure yeares , and concerning the agreement betwixt her spirit and her selfe , shee confesseth and saith , that when it came first unto her , she gave her soule to it , and it promised to doe her good , and cause thomas simpson to love her , if shee would suffer it to sucke her , which she agreed unto ; and so the last , time it suckt was on tuesday at night , the . of february . margaret flower , at the same time confesseth , that she hath two familiar spirits sucking on her , the one white , the other blacke spotted ; the white sucked under her left breast , and the blacke spotted within the inward parts of her secrets . when shee first entertained them shee promised them her soule , and they covenanted to doe all things which shee commanded them , &c. shee further saith , that about the . of ianuary last past , being saturday , foure devills appeared unto her in lincolne jayle , at eleven on twelve a clocke at midnight : the one stood at her beds feet , with a blacke head like an ape , and spake unto her , but what , she cannot well remember , at which she was very angry because hee would speake no plainer , or let her understand his meaning : the other three were rutterkin , little robin , and spirit ; but she never mistrusted them , nor suspected her selfe till then . these examinations and some others were taken and charily preserved for the contriving of sufficient evidences against them , and when the judges of assize came downe to lincolne about the first wecke of march , being sir henry hobert , lord chiefe justice of the common-pleas , and sir edward bromely , one of the barons of the exchequer , they were presented unto them , who not onely wondred at the wickednesse of these persons , but were amazed at their practises and horrible contracts with the devill to damne their owne soules : and although the right honourable earle had sufficient griefe for the losse of his children ; yet no doubt it was the greater to consider the maner , and how it pleased god to inflict on him such a fashion of visitation : besides , as it amazed the hearers to understand the particulars , and the circumstances of this devillish contract was it as wonderfull to see their desperate impenitency , and horrible distraction , according to the rest of that sort , exclaiming against the devill for deluding them , and now breaking promise with them , when they stood in most need of his helpe . notwithstanding all these aggravations , such was the unparalleld magnanimity , wisedome , and patience of this generous noble-man , that he urged nothing against them more then their owne confessions , and so quietly left them to judiciall triall , desiring of god mercy for their soules , and of men charity to censure them in their condemnation : but god is not mocked , and so gave them over to judgement , nor man so reformed , but for the earles sake , they cursed them to that place which they themselves long before had bargained for . what now remaines ( gentle reader ) but for thee to make use of so wonderfull a story , and remarkeable an accident , out of which , to draw to a conclusion , thou mayest collect these particulas : first , that god is the supreame commander of all things , and permitteth wonderfull actions in the world , for the triall of the godly , the punishment of the wicked , and his owne glory : of which man shall never attaine to know the reason or occasion . secondly , that the devill is the meere servant and agent of god , to prosecute whatsoever he shall command rather then give leave unto ; limiting him yet thus farre in his owne nature , that he can goe no further then the bounds within which he is hedged . thirdly , that this god hath punishments , ad correctionem , that is to say , chastisements of the godly , & ad ruinam , videlicet , judgements against the wicked , wherein yet man must disclaime any knowledge , and forsake prejudicate opinions . for the very just shall be tried like gold , and no man exempted from castigation whom god doth love . fourthly , that this devill , though hee bee gods instrument , yet worketh altogether by deceit : for as he was a lier from the beginning ; so let no man trust him , because hee aimes at the confusion of all mankinde , fifthly , that the wicked ( however they may thriue and prosper for a time ) yet in the end are sure to be payed home , either with punishment in this life or in the life to come , or both , as a finall reward of menstrous impicty . sixthly , that man in his frailty must not presume of prosperity , but prepare a kind of stooping under the hand of god , when it pleaseth him to strike or punish us . seventhly , that there is no murmuring nor repining against god , but quietly to tolerate his inflictings , whensoever they chance , of which this worthy earle is a memorable example to all men and ages . eightly , that the punishments of the wicked are so many warnings to all irregular sinners to amend their lives , and avoid the judgement to come , by penitency , and newnesse of life . ninthly , that though man could bee content to passe over blasphemies and offences against the statutes of princes , yet god will overtake them in their owne walkes , and pull them backe by the sleeve into a slaughter-house , as here you know the evidences against these people tooke life and power from their owne confessions . tenthly , and last of all , that private opinion cannot prevaile against publike censures : for here you see the learned and religious judges cried out with our saviour , ex ore tuo . therefore though it were so , that neither witch nor devill could doe these things , yet let not a witch live , saith god , and let them die ( saith the law of england ) that have conversation with spirits , and presume to blaspheme the name of god with spels and incantations . o then you sonnes of men , take warning by these examples ; and either divert your steps from the broad way of destruction , and irrecoverable gulfe of damnation , or with iosuahs counsell to achan , blesse god for the discovery of wickednesse , and take thy death patiently , as the prevention of thy future judgement , and saving innocents from punishment , who otherwise may be suspected without a cause . vtinam tam facile vera invenire possem , quam falsa convincere . the triall of a witch . now as touching the triall and discovery of a witch ( then which these cannot be any president more necessary and behoovefull for us ) there are divers opinions holden ; as some by the pricking of a sharpe knife , naule , or other pointed instrument under the stoole or seate on which the witch sitteth ( for thereon shee is not able to sit or abide ) others by scratching , or drawing of blood from the witch , by either party that is grieved , or the next of blood to the same , and others by fire ; as by burning any relique or principall ornament belonging to the suspected witch , which shall no sooner bee on fire , but the witch will presently come running to behold it ; and of these , trials have beene made both in hartfordshire , northamptonshire , and huntingtonshire ; but the onély assured and absolute perfect way to finde her out , is to take the witch or party suspected either to some mildam , pond , lake or deepe river , and stripping her to her smocke , tie her armes acrosse , onely let her legs have free liberty ; then fastening arope about her middle which with the helpe of by standers may be ever ready to save her from drowning ( in case she sinke ) throw her into the water , and if shee swimme aloft and not sincke , then draw her foorth , and have some honest and discreet women neere , which may presently search her for the secret marke of witches , as teates , blood-moales , moist warts , and the like , which found , then the second time ( binding her right thumbe to her left toe , and her left thumbe to her right toe ) throw her into the water againe ( with the assistance of the former rope to save her , if shee should chance to sincke ) and if then shee swim againe and doe not sincke you may most assuredly resolve she is a witch : and of this many pregnant and true proofes have beene made , as namely by one master enger of bedfordshire , upon the person of mary sutton ( a notable witch ) whom he cast into his mildam at milton mills , and found the effect as hath beene declared , and for her witchcraft was there condemned and executed , and as this so i could recite a world of others in the same nature . but the trueth is so manifest that it needeth no flourish to adorne it . finis . a vindication from colonell sands: being the true copie of a letter sent from colonell sands to his excellence the earle of eseex [sic] from worcester the . of october. wherein colonell sands doth declare his resolution to maintaine the cause hee hath begun, with the hazard of his life and fortunes. also manifesting to the world, that those reports of his being slaine, with the contents of the lord faulklands letter, to be false and scandalous. with his humble desire to his excellence, that the coppie of his resolution might be presented to the parliament, that they might be satisfied concerning his fidelity. read in the audience of both houses of parliament, and by them approved of. whereunto is annexed seven articles of impeachment of high treason, exhibited in parliament, against sir edward heron, high sheriffe of the county of lincolne. sandys, edwin, or - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing s thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a vindication from colonell sands: being the true copie of a letter sent from colonell sands to his excellence the earle of eseex [sic] from worcester the . of october. wherein colonell sands doth declare his resolution to maintaine the cause hee hath begun, with the hazard of his life and fortunes. also manifesting to the world, that those reports of his being slaine, with the contents of the lord faulklands letter, to be false and scandalous. with his humble desire to his excellence, that the coppie of his resolution might be presented to the parliament, that they might be satisfied concerning his fidelity. read in the audience of both houses of parliament, and by them approved of. whereunto is annexed seven articles of impeachment of high treason, exhibited in parliament, against sir edward heron, high sheriffe of the county of lincolne. sandys, edwin, or - . heron, edward, sir. [ ] p. printed for t. fawcet, london : octob. . . reproduction of the original in the british library. eng sandys, edwin, or - . heron, edward, -- sir. trials (treason) -- england -- th century -- early works to . great britain -- history -- civil war, - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no a vindication from colonell sands:: being the true copie of a letter sent from colonell sands to his excellence the earle of eseex [sic] fr sandys, edwin d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a vindication from colonell sands : being the true copie of a letter sent from colonell sands to his excellence the earle of eseex from worcester the . of october . wherein colonell sands doth declare his resolution to maintaine the cause hee hath begun , with the hazard of his life and fortunes . also manifesting to the world , that those reports of his being slaine , with the contents of the lord faulklands letter , to be false and scandalous . with his humble desire to his excellence , that the coppie of his resolution might be presented to the parliament , that they might be satisfied concerning his fidelity . read in the audience of both houses of parliament , and by them approved of . vvhereunto is annexed seven articles of impeachment of high treason , exhibited in parliament , against sir edward heron , high sheriffe of the county of lincolne . london , printed for t. fawcet , octob. . . a vindication from collonell sands . tuesday the .th day of this instant october , was read in the house of commons , the coppie of a letter , directed from col●onell sands to his excellency the lord generall , who is now resident with his army neere shrewsbury , the effect whereof is as followeth . by which is made mainfest , the most scandalous aspersion raysed upon the said collonell , by the ill-affected party , of his recantation and sorrow before his death ( who is yet living ) for taking up armes on the parliaments side against the king . the letter . sir , may it please your excellency to pardon my presumption in writing these few lines of the condition i am in , and how j have continued since your excellencies departure from worcester : the wounds j received are dangerous , but the chyrurgions put me in comfort , not mortall , but within some time of rest ; j may againe recover my strength , i have been in much anguish and paine , but am of the mending hand , thanks be to god . ( sir ) j am emboldened to informe your excellency of my resolution , ( if it please god to restore me to my former health ) to doe the king my liege lord and soveraigne , and his great councell of parliament , representing the whole state of the kingdome , the best service j shall be able to performe , to the losse of my life , or that j see peace in this our israel setled , this expression of my resolution , is to vindicate a most scandalous aspersion of late raysed and cast upon me , by the wicked and envious party , that j should be dead , and before my death did much repent me of taking up armes against his majesty , on the parliaments side , which if i should have done directly against his majesty , it would repent me , but in that it was by order from both houses , and for the preservation of the peace , religion and lawes of this kingdome , and of his majesties owne royall person , with his kingly of spring , j never had a thought of changing my resolution to persist in maintenance of that cause your excellency hath undertaken , to the losse of life and fortunes , ( sir ) j most humbly desire that this my resolution may be presented to the parliament , that they hauing good testimony of my fidelity towards them , may not be drawne to conceive the contrary of me and my actions , and not beleeve the false and scandalous aspersions raised against me . your excellencies in 〈…〉 sands . articles exhibited in parliament , against sir edward heron , high sheriffe of the county of lincoln . after the reading of this letter in the lords house , it was sent downe to the commons and in their house read , and after some debate of the same , the house fell into consideration of the many abuses of printing scandalous and libellous pamphlets against many gentlemen of good worth imployed by the parliament in the service of the state , to the disheartning and discouraging of them and other well-affected to proceed in preservation of the peace of the kingdome , and procuring the punishment of delinquents . now many pamphlets are and have beene printed against the proceedings of parliament , as a paper intituled the kings vindication , & c. and against the proceedings of our army , as the paper intituled a letter from the lord faulk land of the fight at worcester , and many other of the like nature , and after the house had debated thereupon , they appointed a committee to sit every afternoone , to receive information against the authors of such pamphlets , and the printers and sellers thereof , and to report the sence of them to the house , that they may receive condigne punishment according to their deserts . then the committe appointed for the drawing up the charge of treason against sir edward heron , high sheriffe of lincolne , presented the same to the house , containing these articles . . that the said sir edward heron , upon three severall summons of both houses of parliament , refused to make his appearance before them , but in a slight and scornefull manner returned answer ; he had a countermand from his majesty , and could not obey the orders of the house . . that in a traiterous manner the said sir edward heron procured many of the gentry of that county to subscribe to a seaitious and scandalous petition , by his direction framed against the proceedings of parliament , in defence of his majesties proceedings , and sent the same by his man to the parliament . . that being sent for by messengers from the house of commons as a delinquent , to answer the framing of t●● said petition to the house , hee refused not onely so t●●●… , but apprehended and arrested the messengers 〈◊〉 committed them to prison . . that in a trayterous and rebellious manner hee hath raised about one hundred men of the inhabitants of that country , and actually leavied warre vpon the kings good subjects apprehending , fining , and imprisoning all such as he could , which indeavoured to oppose his trayterous actions and d●signes . . that being commanded by a warrant from the lord and deputy-lieutenants of the county of lincolne , to lay downe his armes and make his appearance before them , and answer his contempt in not obeying the summons of the house , he returned a slight answer and retired with his company to his house , where he fortified himselfe with armes and ammunition , and stood out against the parliament . . that he hath bought of recusants , and ill-affected persons of that county , armor , and privately convaid to his house ther armes of professed papists , because they should not be disarmed , fostering and maintaining priests and papists in his house . . that he procured a cart-load of armes more to be brought to his house on tuesday the fourth of this instant moneth , and the same being seyzed upon by the parliaments forces , he in a trayterous manner , with about fifty persons issued out of his house armed , and assaulted those that had seyzed the said armor , and being demanded to yeeld himselfe , and goe with them to the parliament , he refused and stood upon his guard till he was taken by force , and brough to the parliament . these articles being read in the house of commons , and some debate upon the same , they were appointed to be read againe the next morning the second time . finis . the tryall and plea of james earle of derby, prisoner of war, before a court martiall at chester, octob. . the articles were severall particulars of treason, by his invading england, raising forces, &c. the answer is a confession of the fact. the plea is a plea of quarter, which he conceives to be a good bar to a tryall for life, by court martiall or councell of war, though not against a meer civill judicature. his plea was over-ruled by the court upon this account, that the court martiall was directed by parliament. so that the court proceeded to sentence, only gave him a fortnights time from the first of october. from this sentence he appealeth to his excellency the lord generall. derby, james stanley, earl of, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing t a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing t a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryall and plea of james earle of derby, prisoner of war, before a court martiall at chester, octob. . the articles were severall particulars of treason, by his invading england, raising forces, &c. the answer is a confession of the fact. the plea is a plea of quarter, which he conceives to be a good bar to a tryall for life, by court martiall or councell of war, though not against a meer civill judicature. his plea was over-ruled by the court upon this account, that the court martiall was directed by parliament. so that the court proceeded to sentence, only gave him a fortnights time from the first of october. from this sentence he appealeth to his excellency the lord generall. derby, james stanley, earl of, - . [ ], p. [s.n.], london : printed in the yeare, . cropped with slight loss of print. reproduction of the original in the harvard university library. eng trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . a r (wing t a). civilwar no the tryall and plea of james earle of derby, prisoner of war, before a court martiall at chester, octob. . . the articles were severall derby, james stanley, earl of c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - derek lee sampled and proofread - derek lee text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryall and plea of james earle of derby , prisoner of war , before a court martiall at chester , octob. . . the articles were severall particulars of treason , by his invading england , raising forces , &c. the answer is a confession of the fact . the plea is a plea of quarter , which he conceives to be a good bar to a tryall for life , by court martiall or councell of war , though not against a meer civill judicature . his plea was over-ruled by the court upon this account , that the court martiall was directed by parliament . so that the court proceeded to sentence , only gave him a fortnights time from the first of october . from this sentence he appealeth to his excellency the lord generall . kings . , . and the king of israel said to elisha when he saw them , my father shall i smite them ? shall i smite them ? and he answered , thou shalt not smite them , wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword , and with thy bow . london , printed in the yeare , . the charge and articles of high-treason against the earl of derby , with the tryal , examination , and confession , on tuesday and wednesday , before a court-marshal at chester . upon the th of this instant moneth , by an extraordinary messenger from chester it is advertized , that the earl of derby was brought before the court-marshal , consisting of col. duckenfield and commission-officers , where the judge advocate brought in , and read the charge against him , consisting of high-treason , viz. . that he had in a most traiterous and hostile manner , been aiding , abetting , and assisting to charles stuart ( son to the late tyrant . ) . that he had held correspondency and confederacy with the said charles stuart , and his accomplices ; and to the utmost of his power , indeavoured the subversion and extirpating of this present government ; as also the violating and abolishing the law and discipline , so happily by them established . . that he had trayterously indeavoured to involve this nation in another bloody and intestine war , by issuing forth and sending warrants in lancashire , and summoning in the people to a randevouz . . that he had most traiterously appeared in the head of a party , both in cheshire , lancashire , and other places within this nation , and granted commissions , signed c. r [ being a signal used by the grand enemy of this common-wealth ] to divers gentlemen , papists , and others , for the raising of forces against the parliament , &c. the judge advocate having read the charge , his lordship made a short speech in answer thereunto , to wit , that he had not acted in the least , contrary to the commands of his master the king ; but what he had done , was in order and obedience to the power and instructions from him received . after which col. duckenfield and the rest of the councel , proceeded to examination , and stated the matters of fact , consisting of high-treason ; which caused his lordship to look very pensively , and moved him so far , that he would fain do something which might be considered , and himself in it ; and withall , declares a good inclination to deliver up the isle of man , to the present power ; only here lies a scruple , that he is afraid it will be imputed as a very ignoble and dishonourable thing , to surrender up his children and lady in it . but after some time spent in this business , the councel referred the further proceedings in his tryal until another time . the matters of fact exhibited against him , are of a very high nature , and its probable may draw a severe sentence upon him : divers other persons of quality there are which were ingaged also in this treasonable design , who are likewise to be brought to the bar of justice : therefore i conceive it requisite , to present to the free-born people of this nation : certain rules and proposals , shewing the happiness and joy that will redound to all those at the hour of death that walke stedfastly in the wayes of holiness ; and the misery and torments that will befall on the contrary , to those that are opposers , and kick against the ordinances thereof . an evident demonstration whereof followeth . the substance of the earle of derby's speech to enforce his plea . i understand my self to be convented before you , as well by a commission from the lord generall , as by direction of an act of parliament of the th . of august last . to the articles i have given a full and ingenuous answer , what may present it selfe for my advantage , i have gained liberty to offer and urge by advise . and i doubt not but in matter of law the court will be to me instead of counsell in court . sir , i shall first observe to you the nature and generall order of a court martiall , with the lawes and axiomes of it , as far as concerns my case , and then shall apply my plea to such orders , &c. and therefore i conceive ( under favour ) that the laws of a court martiall , are as the laws of nature and nations , equally binding all persons , and in all places military ; and to be observed inviolably . and therefore it is , if a judgement be given in one court martiall , there is no appeal to any other court martiall . of which law martiall , the civill law gives a plentifull accoun , t far above what the common law doth ; as grotius de iure belli , &c. but because it is one onely point of martiall law , which i am to insist upon for my life , — i shall name it , and debate the jus , the right of it , — it is quarter for life given me by captain edge . which i conceive to be a good bar to avoid tryall by a councell of war for life . that you are a councell of vvar , will be admitted , and being so , that you must judge and proceed to laws of vvar , and no otherwise , cannot be denyed . that quarter was given me , if it be scrupled , i am ready to prove , and being given , that it is pleadable is above dispute . i shall onely remove one objection , which is , that though this be a court martiall , yet the speciall nature of it is directed by parliament . to this i answer , though the parliament direct the tryall as it is , yet it limits it to a court martiall , which cannot direct it selfe , nor is directed of its own nature by any such direction . for to appoint a court martiall to proceed by any other laws , than a court martiall can , — is a repugnancy in naturarei . so that as such court martiall retains it's proper lawes and jurisdictions for the support of it self ; so the pleas and liberties incident to that cannot be denyed the prisoner . that quarter , and such quarter as i had given , is a good plea for life to a councell of war , i shall not endeavour so much to evince by authors ( that being the proper work of the learned in civil lawes ) but by such way as that which we call ius gentium , is proved by common practice , and strong reason . for the first i shall not need to bring any forraign instances , being before you whose experiences hath made this thing familiar to you ; and i beleeve you will agree with me , that i am not onely the first peer , but the first man , tryed by a court martiall after quarter given ; unlesse some matters ex post facto , or subsequent to such quarter , brought them within he examen of such court martiall . and ( as i am informed ) upon the great tryall of the earle of cambridge , lord capell , earle of holland , &c that plea of quarter being throughly urged , it was onely avoyded upon this ground , that it was no good plea against a civill jurisdiction , there being no colour of dispute , but tacitely admitted & concluded , that it was a good plea against a military jurisdiction . and though the lord capell and lord gorings quarter seemed to have some advantage , as being given by the generall , and by way of articles , yet that quarter given to the earle of cambridg was given him by a particular captain , and that quarter , as quarter considered , as strong as the other , only both avoided by the civill jurisdiction in the high court of iustice . it being a rule in war , that quarter hath as much force being given in action , as articles have in a cessation , both irreversible by any military power . and though it may be a received opinion in politiques , that no generals or souldiers concessions should prejudice the states interest , yet they shall be barrs to their owne power . i confesse i love the laws of peace more then those of war , yet in this case i must adhere to those of war . and i would only know , whether a quarter was given me for a benefit to me , or for a mischief ; it for a benefit , i am now to have it made good ; if for a mischief , then it destroys the faith of men in arms . and i have read this for a maxime of war , that promisses made by kings , or states commanders , ought to be observed inviolably , else there never will be any yeelding . and i shall lay this before you as a rule , that quarter given by the meanest souldier ( if not forbidden ) obliges as farr as if the generall had done it . and i never read or heard , that any souldiers received to mercy , were ( after howres respite ) ever denied quarter , or tryed by a court marshall . it may be objected then , that it may rest in the power of no private souldier by giving quarter to pardon treason . to that i say , i pleaded it not as an absolute pardon , but as a barr to a court marshall . i shall infer further from conclusions of reason . the profession of a souldier hath danger enough in it , and hee need not add any to it , to destroy the right of arms . i am before you as a court marshall , it may be all of you , or most , have in some action or other since these troubles began , received quarter for your lives , and would it not be hard measure that any court marshall should try you afterwards . if this quarter be foyled or nulled , all the quarter , articles , termes or conclusions made since the warr began may be examinable by any subsequent court marshall , nay , by this the sword , the law of armes , all millitary interest , and your owne safety , are judged and jeoparded as well as mine . but i shall not multiply , presuming you will not judge by the laws of war , in which capacity only you sitt ; and that you wil● in religion and iustice allow that plea which is universally , even in all parts of the world allowable . if you are dissatisfied , i pray that as an essentiall to iustice i may have a doctor of the civill law assigned mee , or at least liberty to produce their books and opinions . and that in the interim you suspend your sentence touching my levying forces in the isle of man and invading england , i might plead my self ( and that truly ) a stranger to all the acts of treason , and in particular to the act of the th . of august , — and that the isle of man is not particularly named in any of the acts of treason , and not being particularly named , those acts reach not , nor bind those of that island , — and in particular , that i was in the isle of man , when the last act was made . and the law looks not backwards ; — and whilst i was in england , i was under an unlikelihood and unpossibility of knowing the new acts , which i leave to judgement . but because i have , as to my fact , confessed and submitted to the parliaments mercy , i do , as to your military power , earnestly plead quarter , as a bar to your further tryall of me . and i doubt not but you will deeply weigh a point so considerable , both to your concernments and consciences , before you proceed to sentence . and admit my appeal to his excellency the lord generall cromwell , on this single point . to the right honorable his excellency the lord generall cromwell . the humble petition of james earle of derby , a sentenced prisoner in chester . shewing , that it appeareth by the annexed what plea your petitioner hath urged for life , in which the court marshall here were pleased to overrule him , it being a matter of law , and a point not adjudged nor presidented in all this war : and the plea being only capable of appeal to your excellency , whose wisdome will safely resolve it ; and your petitioner being also a prisoner to the high court of parliament in relation to his rendition of the isle of man . in all he most humbly craves your excellencies grace , that he may as well obtain your excellencies judgment on his plea , as the parliaments mercy , with your excellencies favour to him , and he shall owe his life to your lordships service , and ever pray , &c. derby . to that objection , that a private officer cannot give quarter for life , is oppose the constant customes of men in arms in all nations , and the particular warrant of the civill law in that behalfe . one particular case was prest by his lordship , and presented to his excellency the lord gen. cromwell . a case wherein six private souldiers gave quarter to six thousand of the enemy , among whom were the chiefest officers of the enemies army , the generall only excepted . in the yeare ● . the prince of orange being with the states army at bergen ap zo●me , to prevent the enemy of a designe of landing in some part of zealand , or some of those lesser islands that divide it and holland , the enemy being shrouded and distracted , and so forc'd a shore , half a dozen private souldier of the princes army came to the place , to whom and above gave themselves prisoners ; and the quarter was made good unto them , and they allowed to their ransomes by the prince of orange , notwitstanding he was with his army on a very hasty march , with an intention to have cut them all off , in regard there was no quarter given by water , nor any certaine ransome . in which businesse above three hundred officers were prisoners . this case is attested by foulcke houncks . the . alcock . colonel cromwell and mr. hugh peters were present at this action . whereas further it has bin objected against the said earl of derby , that he kild one captaine bootle at the taking of boulton ; for his vindication , from that imputation , he produced an affidavit of a man of good repute voluntarily taken before doctor aylet in the chancery , in the year . as followeth . peter cropper of bickerstaffe in the county of lancaster gentleman , maketh oath , that about the latter end of the month of may , in the year . at the time when prince rupert took the town of bolton in lancashire , by assault ; he this depone●t , being there present , saw the now earle of derby neer unto the cross in bolton ; and it being rumored then , that the said earle had slaine one bootle , that had bin once his porter , he looked and saw the said bootle wounded , but not dead ; and soon after , one col. clifton , since deceased , standing by , with his sword ran the said bootle through once or twice , saying , if thou have not enough , thou shalt have more , or words to that effect ; upon which the said bootle fell down dead ; and he further saith , that this killing of the said bootle , was above an hour before the said town was taken , or any generall quarter given ; for that the princes souldiers did pursue those in the town above an houre after the said bootles death , before they ceased , and gave quarter . in the presence of edward stockley gentleman . peter cropper , jurat die may . rob. aylet . besides this , a gentleman of honour and repute , colonell russell , attested voluntarily before his excellency the lord generall , that the earle of derby , at the taking of bolton charged with prince ruperts life-guard , who entred the town next to the forlorn hope , and that quarter was not given of an hour and half after ; so that if the earl of derby killed bootle , it must needs be in the height of the storm , bootle being killed at the first entrance . upon the whole is is submitted to his excellency the lord generall , and the councell of the army , whether the earle of derby being a prisoner of war , after quarter given by a capt. of the l. gen. own regiment , may be sentenced to death by a court martiall . finis . a full and true account of the proceedings at the sessions of oyer and terminer, holden for the city of london, county of middlesex, and goal-delivery of newgate; which began at the sessions-house in the old-baily, on wednesday, septemb. th. and ended on thursday, september th. wherein is contained the tryal of many notorious malefactors, for murders, fellonies, burglary, and other misdemeanours, as likewise the tryal of ralph benton for killing the boy in walbrook, and what relates to the sister of stephen colledge. together, with the names of those that received sentence of death, the number of those burn'd in the hand, transported, and to be vvhipp'd. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing f aa estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a full and true account of the proceedings at the sessions of oyer and terminer, holden for the city of london, county of middlesex, and goal-delivery of newgate; which began at the sessions-house in the old-baily, on wednesday, septemb. th. and ended on thursday, september th. wherein is contained the tryal of many notorious malefactors, for murders, fellonies, burglary, and other misdemeanours, as likewise the tryal of ralph benton for killing the boy in walbrook, and what relates to the sister of stephen colledge. together, with the names of those that received sentence of death, the number of those burn'd in the hand, transported, and to be vvhipp'd. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) p. printed for t. benskin in st. brides church-yard, [[london] : ] caption title. place of publication from wing; printer's name and publication date from colophon. copy has print show-through. reproduction of the original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng crime -- england -- early works to . criminals -- england -- early works to . trials -- england -- early works to . trials (murder) -- england -- early works to . trials (burglary) -- england -- early works to . trials (robbery) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a full and true accovnt of the proceedings at the sessions of oyer and terminer , holden for the city of london , county of middlesex , and goal-delivery of newgate ; which began at the sessions-house in the old-baily , on wednesday , septemb. th . and ended on thursday , septemb. th . . wherein is contained the tryal of many notorious malefactors , for murders , fellonies , burglary , and other misdemeanours , as likewise the tryal of ralph benton for killing the boy in walbrook , and what relates to the sister of stephen colledge . together , with the names of those that received sentence of death , the number of those burn'd in the hand , transported , and to be vvhip'd . london , septemb. th . . this day the sessions of oyer and terminer , began at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , holden there for the city of london , county of middlesex , and goal-delivery of newgate , until the th . of the said instant , where the proceedings were as followeth . james farrel and robert hurling were indicted for the murther of john price a brick-maker , at hammersmith , the manner , as it appeared upon evidence , thus ; the two prisoners coming into an ale-house , called for drink , and within a while after for cards ; but there being no cards in the house , one of them pulled a pack out of his pocket , and seeing several brick makers and such like labouring men drinking , euticed them to play with them , which they did , till a quarrel happened about the reckoning , aud foul play ; whereupon farrel drew his sword , and his companion , and pursued one of the country-men out into the street , then returning and finding his companion scuffling with price , he run him into the body inches , and after that another was run through the arm : they pleaded they did it in their own defence , and expressed a great deal of sorrow , notwithstanding which they were both found guilty of wilful murther . john clifford an under-chamberlain in an inn , was indicted for robbing a gentleman that lodged in his masters house , of a piece of gold , valued at shillings , which he afterwards sold to a gold-smith in fleet-street , where in conclusion , it was found he made many frivilous excuses , but notwithstanding was found guilty . ann purkinson was indicted for robbing her mistris of six silver spoons , two silver dishes , a silver porenger , several parcels of linnen and wearing apparel , part of which , upon her being apprehended , 〈◊〉 found about her , and other things she confessed were sold and pawned , but being tutered in newgate , upon her tryal she denyed her former confession , yet the proof being positive by sir william turners clerk , and others that apprehended her , she was found guilty . hester wainwright was indicted for robbing a gentlewoman in st. andrews holborn , on the th of july last , of a mantua gown , several silk petticoats , linnen , wearing apparel , and ten pounds eleven shillings in money , the gown and several other things being taken about her ; she pleaded that she took them up amongst her own cloaths , and knew not but that they were her own till she came to open them ; but it being proved that she stole them , and wore the gowns publickly , she was found guilty . sarah chambden was indicted for robbing the house of nicholas finch , in the papish of st. clements danes , of plate linnen , bedding , and other things of great value , the person robbed being her sisters husband , but all the proof lay upon two porengers that were found in her lodging , which she alledged were given her by the prosecutors wife deceased , and the fact pretended to be committed , being of a long standing , the jury brought her in not guilty . one mary wilson was indicted by her husband of that name , for marrying with one hambleton , whom he alledged she was married to several years after she was his wife , but she denying that marriage , and alledgeing that she was wife to none but the prosecutor , he produced justice boly's clerk with her examination , wherein she confessed both marriages , alledging that her other husband was in town , but that he had so great a love for her , that he would not appear against her for fear of taking away her life , and the proof being defective , she was acquitted . thomas white was indicted for breaking open the house of edward hull , and taking from thence goods of a considerable value , which he absolutely denyed , but not being able to give a testimony of his good living , or having any to appear for him , and some of the goods being proved to be found of his disposing , he was found guilty of fellony only . catherine arnold was indicted for breaking open the house of william harvy , in the day-time , and taking thence several goods of value , but the evidence being only circumstantial , and no positive proof , she was acquitted . rebecca handcock was indicted for stealing a silver tankard , valued at l . from one mr. mekins in st. giles's in the fields , on the th of july last , the circumstances was these ; she in the company of another , who now gave evidence against her , coming to the prosecutors door to beg an alms , ( as the witness swore ) went into the house , and came out with something bulky in her lap , and it was proved by the servants , that at that time the tankard was lost , and that upon a warrants being taken out against her , she absented her self from the place of her abode for three weeks , but she alledged upon demand of what she had in her lap , that it was a loaf , which when she went in , she had in her pocket , and there pulling it out , she put it in her lap , so that the jury perceiving her to be a simple indigent woman , they , upon return of their verdict acquitted her . ann jaxon was indicted for stealing of coney_skins , to the value of pounds , from a furrier , the evidence against her was a youth , who at that time was confederate with her , who swore that she gave him two shillings to let her into the shop , and promised he should not want money ; he swore likewise , that she being in , packed up the skins into a bag , and went away with them , but there being no material evidence , the jury acquitted her . simon beale was found guilty for stealing a brandy taster , which he said the woman of the house droped into his pocket unknown to him . jeffery coleman was found guilty of robbing his master , viz. one mr. tann of hornsey , of cloth and other things , part of which were found about him , as he was going to dispose of them . william cook and william chaple two leighter-men , were indicted for stealing several hanks of raw silk out of a baile , as they were towing it from on board a ship. peter hodges and robert rogers were indicted for breaking open a house at eling , and stealing cloth , pewter , brass , bedding , and other things with which they were taken upon the road ; one of them pleaded he had no relation to 'um , but that he overtook the party that had them upon the road ; the other pleaded he was hired for six-pence to carry them to brainford , but they being in several stories , and the proof being plain that they were seen about the house at the time it was robbed , they were both found guilty . martin aubry being indicted for stealing a tankard , pleaded guilty : samuel neve was indicted for stealing a horse and a mare , which he stole in glocester-shire , and brought to the black lyon inn in water-lane , to which indictment he pleaded not guilty , and layed all the fault upon one that was dead in prison , saying ; they were his horses and mare , and that he only got him to let him ride from henly to london upon one of them , for which he gave him two shillings ; but it appearing he upon his coming to the inn had owned one of them , the jury found him guilty of the fellony . john how being indicted for stealing a silver tankard valued at ten pounds , pleaded guilty . one stephen aslington was indicted for killing francis featherstone of kinsington , in july last , the circumstances as appeared upon tryal , were these , the prisoner and the deceased drinking together , with several others , the prisoner went down into the garden , and the deceased followed him , where they fought , not any words of provocation having passed on either side , in which encounter e're any could come in , the latter received a desperate wound , of which he instantly died , but the prisoner alledging that what he did was in his own defence , and that he knew not of any fighting when he came out , but that the other forced him to it , the jury brought it in se defendendo . ralph benton an ensign of the train'd-bands , and pewterer in walbrook , was tryed for the death of andrew williams a youth , who on the th of may , was by mr. benton knocked down for attemping to destroy the bone-fire made before his door , but it appeared by the chyrugeon who dressed him , that his wound was perfectly cured , and that he had been in the country , and upon hi● return confessed himself well , that an agreement had been offered to be made in his behalf , but that he afterwards falling sick dyed ; many eminent physitians gave their testimony , declared that he dyed of a malignant feavor , and that the feavour was not caused by the wound ; but others affirming that great quantities of blood issued out of his mouth and nostrils , after he was dead , and that they believed the wound caused the feavor , and the feavor his death , the prisoner was found guilty of man's-slaughter . fardinando hews , elizabeth mays , and dorothy watson , were indicted for high-treason , in clipping his majesties coin , but there being but one witness against them , which is not sufficient in that case , they were acquitted . no indictment was this sessions preferred against godwins vvife , sister to stephen colledge lately executed , who was committed upon the accusation of her husband , for speaking treasonable words . there were this sessions persons received sentence of death , viz. hester wainwright , james farrel , robert hurling , peter hodges , robert rogers , ann parkinson , mary panks , richard wolley , and thomas stocdale ; burnt in the hand . to be vvhipp'd , and one set aside for transportation . finis : printed for t. benskin in st. brides church-yard . : the trial of the lord audley, earl of castlehaven, for inhumanely causing his own wife to be ravished, and for buggery castlehaven, mervyn touchet, earl of, ?- , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the trial of the lord audley, earl of castlehaven, for inhumanely causing his own wife to be ravished, and for buggery castlehaven, mervyn touchet, earl of, ?- , defendant. england and wales. court of common pleas. [ ], p. [s.n.], london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng castlehaven, mervyn touchet, -- earl of, ?- . trials (sex crimes) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - andrew kuster sampled and proofread - andrew kuster text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the trial of the lord audley , earl of castlehaven , for inhumanely causing his own wife to be ravished , and for buggery . london , printed in the year . . the trial of the lord audley , earl of castlehaven . judges , sir tho. coventry , lord keeper , lord high steward for that day . judges assistant . hide , lord chief justice . richardson , lord chief justice of the common pleas. davenport , lord chief baron . judge jones . judge harvey . judge whitlock . judge crooke . baron denham . kings council . . finch recorder . . sr. randal crew . . mr. attorney . . mr. solicitor . queens attorney . the names of the jury follow . the lords being all met and called , the jury appeared full , and the lord high stewards patent was read , which was dated the th . of april . anno dom. . the lord high steward made a short speech , praising and extolling the kings justice , and care of the state , that his majesty hearing of these abominable crimes by report , could hardly believe them not only reported , but now by his majesties special command , and direction , tryed and found by a jury of able men , and sufficient men at salisbury then , who opened the full business , and explained the meaning of the law for such heinous crimes ; first , for the — secondly , for the sodomy ; when , and in what kings reign these offences were made death by the common law. the prisoner being brought to the bar by the lieutenant of the tower , the lord steward spoke to him , bewailing of his case for falling so far from god , and expressed his sorrow for him , not only as for a subject , but as a peer ; and withall gave him this caveat ; that in , and out of all the confession , and deposition concerning this business , the earl never fell into these foul crimes , until he first fell from god , and changed his religion , and that by fountayle , and by perswasion of his neighbour roman catholicks , and that he leaving god , god left him , and that the dignity , of the person did aggravate the crime . the prisoner desires to speak . the lord steward told him he should have time and leasure enough to speak for himself . in the mean time if he had any thing to deliver shortly ; he should be heard , desiring him to speak boldly without fear ; that he should have an honourable tryal by those peers he saw present , who were without exception . but withal he desired him for his own weale , and the sooner to obtain mercy from the king , to confess freely without circumstances , that his own conscience was more than a thousand witnesses . then was the indictment read. first , for sodomitry , with florence fitzh-patrich , alias fumy , at sarum , the first of june . secondly , for a rape committed against his own wife , in compelling her , and forcing her to yield against her will , to the lust of one giles bradway at sarum , the th of june . he the said earl holding his wife by one arm and one leg , until the fellow had satisfied himself , the earl holding a knife in one hand ; which done , the lady endeavoured to kill her self with a knife , but they took the knife from her , and brake it . thirdly , that the same night he committed buggery with florence fitzh-patrich , alias fume , being the th of june at sarum . to all three indictments , he pleads not guilty , and desires leave to speak , which was granted so he were short . the earl alledges he is no scholar , that he hath been kept these six weeks close prisoner in the tower , where he could have no occasion to seek out any thing that might clear him , and entreats the lord steward that he might have liberty to have counsel . the lord steward replyed , that in all that time , he had more notice of the proceedings against him , than any prisoner before had , to his knowledg , being often before the council table , and face to face before his accusers ; yet to satisfie the earl , the lord steward asked the opinion of the judges , who all in one voice answered , that it could not be granted but in points of law ; if any such occurred , he should have present determination : then the lord steward said , that his tryal must be secundum veritatem facti , little de jure : if his lordship or the lords doubted any thing , let them shew it to the lord steward , and he would shew it to the judges , and so have present answer : that now he was to be judged by the peers , who were without any exception , and because of their absolute integrity , no oath was to be taken from them : so the earl pleads , not guilty , and submits himself to god , his peers , and the right of his cause . then begun the kings attorney to speak , and open the whole business with the circumstances and depositions , pressing them all against the prisoner , but so fairly and so judiciously , that none could do better , nor contrive so foul a business in fairer terms . first , mr. attorney clears himself of any former spleen against the person , but against the crimes ; that he should say nothing but what he could prove clearly ; ( which indeed he did perform ) that these ten years past , during the time of his service to our late majesty , and our now present sovereign , he had never opened his mouth against any peer in this land ; wherein he commended greatly the king in his government , and the peers in their duty to their sovereign ; then he shewed that these detestable crimes were now prosecuted by a legal course of law ; that his majesty and people might be clear of them : that the lord audley ( for so they still called him ) was legally indicted in his own countrey : mr. attorny goes on , causes the depositious to be read . first , he insists upon the rape : if a man , saith he , doth force a maried woman , and that she yeild thereafter , yet he dieth by the law , except she concieve ; yea though she cried not , nor complained in time , for this is no exception against the king , but against the woman ; mr. attorny persists , and shews there was no necessity of revealing it , because the woman was in their power . the earl tried his wifes chastity the first night of her mariage with him , and takes pleasure to make all men as bad as himself ; he tempts her first night after her mariage , to lie with his favorite anthil , whom the earl said he loved above all men ; he saies also to her , that her body was his body , she must therefore use it at his pleasure , and used scripture for it . to anthil the son of an inkeeper , being his favourite , he gave his eldest daughter in mariage with l . of portion ; this argues strong affection , and that which all mankind abhors , ( that is to have their wifes prostitute to others ) the earl took great delight in . next to anthil scceeds skipwith in the earls affections , whom from a foot-boy and a page he advanced to be his favourite , and so stiled him usually , and made him sit at his table , and makes him his bed-fellow : sed quorsum hoc ? i leave that to your lordships to judge : to him he was not so favourable as to anthil , in bestowing his wife upon him , and was the pander and the baud ; when as most men strive to leave their succession to legitimate children , and not to spurious births . so i will leave this point of rape with this truth , that to force a woman is a great sin ; but for an husband to consent that his wife shall be forced , is very much : but for an husband to behold it , to be a spectator , yea to force her , it goes beyond the bounds of humanity . now as to that sin which should not be named amongst christians , and a strange sin in this land , brought hither by strangers , i will scarce name it , the law of england saies , that knowledg is a burden , and i think it is in this particular , crimen est bestiale contra naturam , it is crimen sodomiticum sine penetratione cum faemina ; it is masculus cum masculo , and therefore penetration is not lawful to make it sodomy ; cubitus immunditus supplies the penetration ; voluntas solum requiretur , non copulatio ; so that the law of england makes distinction of degrees of this filthy sin , non est species luxuriae , sed bestialitatis , quia non sequitur conceptio . many more passages were cited by mr. attorny both out of scripture and law , &c. so he concluded that every breach of this filthy sin was within the compass of felony . then he fell upon henry skipwith , born in ireland , who being come from a footman , to be the earls bedfellow and favourite , got from the earl l . per annum , whereas he gave not his son one hundred : he gave him also his house at salisbury ; and gave him many leases ; and all his goods by gift and deed ; besides all these , he did prostitute unto him his lady , and his eldest sons wife . then did mr. attorny largely declare all my lord audlyes business , how skipwith and she did love one another in ireland before her mariage , but never enjoyed her , till after her mariage ; and by reason of her young years what oyls and grease the earl used , to make her fit for skipwith , which his heart abhorred to relate . he did aggravate the more against the earl , because skipwith being in such exorbitant and excessive favour with the earl ; whatsoever his wife had , must come by skipwith , whatsoever the young lady had , must come by skipwith ; yet all these favours bestowed uppon skipwith were nothing , in regard of that which is beyond all expression , that the earl should be to him the impulsive instrument , to betray the chastity of an innocent lady of years , his own daughter-in-law , whose children ( if any had been ) should have been peers of this realm ; and which is worse , if worse can be , the earl to be the spectator and enconrager of all these filthy crimes . this was confest by skipwith , and the young lady ; and as for the earl's filthiness with his maid blandina , that was also touched , how the earl's house was a common brothel-house , the earl himself delighting to be not only an actor , but a continual spectator of filthiness ; and also blandina was abused by himself and his servants for the space of seven hours together , until she had the french pox ; and so mr. attorney ended his speech , recommending the business to the peers . then were all the witnesses examined , fumy , alias florence , fitz-patrick , giles bradway , skipwith , scot , flore , walter tite , his steward , their former depositions were read to them all , which now again upon oath they did acknowledge to be true ; both the ladies depositions were also read , and some of the lords were sent to them to take their oaths whether they were true or not , which they constantly stood to upon oath . thus did mr. attorney clearly prove what he had alledged against the earl ; not one circumstance at all which he alledged against the earl , which was not proved by two of the witnesses at the least . then spake the kings sollicitor , resuming all that was said , and proved by mr. attorney , alledging more law to prove the same ; but in substance said no more than what was said before . then did the prisoner speak for himself . first he excepts against the witnesses , as base and unworthy persons , suborned by his wife and his son , to take away his life ; whereas , by law , witnesses ought to be honest persons and undefamed , which they are not ; and alledges law for it : for fitch-patrick , he said he was a recusant , and therefore could be no witness ; which was repelled , because he was never convicted for the same ; and therefore the judges could take no notice of his recusancy . the earl said further , that for his knavery he had oftentimes beaten him , and turned him away ; and that he was now hired by his son to bear witness against him : it was repelled again by the lord steward , because it could not be . it was answered again by the judges , that in law for the king , all witnesses are held to be sufficient , and that no honest and undefamed men could be witnesses of such bad and monstruus actions ; and besides , it concerned the deponents lives as well as the prisoners . the lord steward further adds , that the earl had fair dealing , beyond the practice , in that the witnesses were brought face to face to him , which were all brought there , except the two ladies . secondly , that supposing it were true which they deposed ( which he hoped would not so prove ) he urged to be cleared , whether the statute did intend that all kind of pollution ( man with man ) were buggery or not , seeing by their confession , there was no penetration . to this ( the judges advice being asked ) they answered it was buggery by the law , and that the law of this land made no distinction of buggery , if there be emissio seminis . thirdly , he excepted against the deposition of the witnesses for the rape , alledging that the actor being the witness , deposed , that he had spent after he had strugled with the countess , that he did not penetrate at all . to this it was answered by the judges ( after asking ) that the countess her own deposition ▪ did clear that matter , who declared upon oath that the fellow had carnal dealing with her , being held by the arm and leg by her husband , and never thereafter knew him . fourthly , he said that the wife could not be a witness against her husband : the judges being asked their opinions therein by the lord steward , answered , that in civil matters between party and party , a wife could not be a witness ; but for criminal matters , and for the king , the wife may be a witness , fifthly , he urged that his wife was incontinent , yea before he married her , and therefore a whore can be no witness : the judges opinions being asked in this case , they answered , that a common whore may be ravished , and so repelled his answer . sixthly , he alledged that his wife , his son , and one mr. william wroghton had plotted together against his life , and so all was but their suggestions ; this he could not prove , and was rejected and repelled again by the lord steward . lastly , he beseeched the lords to consider what a dangerous preparative it was to this kingdom , that a mans wife and his son , gaping after his succession , the devil and wicked servants complotting together , might bereave the greatest peer of his life . wherefore he desires them to see into what a misery the nobles , gentry , and commons did involve themselves by this example , if he were condemned ; and so humbly submitted himself to god , and the censure of his peers , and was removed to a place appointed , till the peers considered of it . the peers names who were of the grand jury . . weston , lord treasurer . . montague , lord privy seal . . earl marshal . . lord chamberlain . . earl of kent . . earl of worcester . . earl of bedford . . earl of essex . . earl of dorset . . earl of salisbury . . earl of leicester . . earl of warwick . . earl of holland . . earl of carlisle . . earl of berkshire . . earl of danby . . viscount wimbleton . . viscount conway . . viscount dorchester . . viscount wentworth . . lord clifford . . lord piercy . . lord strange . . lord north. . lord peters . . lord edw. howard . . lord goring . the peers being upon their honours , removed themselves to another room , and debated the matter near three hours ; all the lords except one , found him guilty ; and that was my lord north , who conceived him guilty of neither . but there was a great contestation for the buggery ; fifteen found him guilty , twelve not ; but the major part carried it . the kings serjeant at law desired judgment . thereupon sentence was pronounced against him by the lord steward , who adjudged him to be carried back to the tower , and from thence to go to the place of his execution , to be hanged till he died . the earl hearing his judgment , sate down upon his knees , and protested upon his salvation and damnation , that he was innocent , and then desired the lords to intercede for him to his majesty ; that his majesty would be pleased to give him some respite , to settle and reconcile himself to his god ( though he desired no pardon of his majesty of his life ) which the lords promised him , and so the court dissolved . the lord steward gave him a grave and godly admonition , desiring him to reconcile himself to god , and to be penitent for his offences . that he was beholding to his god , that he was not strucken suddenly in the very acts of sin , but he had this leasure to repent ; with many other comfortable speeches . notwithstanding this judgment , there was a warrant from his majesty , upon the lords intercession , for his beheading . the manner of the earl of castlehaven , his coming to the scaffold , carriage and speech there . mervin lord audley , earl of castlehaven , being at his arraignment , the of april . recieved the sentence of death . it was not long after before the warrant for his execution was signed , and that to be upon saturday the of may following ; notice whereof was given him , and his coffin carried into the tower about a week before , that he might the better prepare himself for death : the dean of pauls , doctor winerfe , failed not daily to visit him ; and to see how he stood , and to settle him in his religion , upon the st . of may he published in writing under his hand the articles of his faith ; and the day for him to suffer in being come , there repaired unto him of noblemen , gentry , and others , a world of people to behold the same . he came attired in a plain black grogram suit , a falling band , a hat without a band , coming along ( notwithstanding the mighty guard which attended him ) such was the concourse and press of people , both men and women , to see him , that his person was scarce free , but even both along in the throng , insomuch that his man was fain to settle anew , and amend his gown on his back , when he came to mount the scaffold ; which being ascended , the dean of pauls and doctor wickham , together with his servants , he saluted the noble personages , and whole assembly , shewing to them all a very noble , manly and chearful countenance , such as seemed no ways daunted with the fear of death . after a short while shewing himself to the people , he addressed himself to prayer , the deans accompanying him in that exercise , but somewhat apart ; which being not long , he stood upon his legs , and leaned upon the two deans , conferring with them ; then after he turned to the lords , and spake to this effect ; i acknowledge with thankfulness the great goodness of almihgty god , that it hath pleased his divine majesty to bestow on me many endowments , as honour , riches , and the like , which i have mispent , having been a vicious liver , and justly deserved death , forasmuch and in that the least sin at gods hands justly deserveth death , and no less ; but for the two heinous crimes with which i am branded , condemned , and here to suffer for , i do here deny them upon my death freely forgiving those that have accused me , and have been the occasion of my death , even as freely as i my self do desire forgiveness at gods hands , which i hope to obtain through his infinite goodness and mercy ; and somewhat the rather , by your christian prayers , which i expect and humbly beg of your lordships and this whole assembly . now forasmuch as there hath been speech and rumour of my unsetledness in my religion , i have for explanation thereof , not only made confession of my faith , to those two worthy doctors ; but for better satisfaction to the world in that point , exprest the same in writing under my hand signed ; which as it is here set down , i desire may be publickly read . the confession of his faith was read by a young gentleman with a loud voice , as followeth ; in the name of god , amen . i mervin earl of castlehaven being in my full strength and perfect memory , thanks be given to my maker , having been branded and openly accused for change , alteration and doubtfulness of my faith and religion , i thought it fit , like a christian man , to give satisfaction upon what grounds i stand for my belief , and i express it under my hand for the satisfaction of all charitable people and christian men . first , i do believe in the blessed and glorious trinity , three persons , one eternal and ever-living god , god the father , god my redeemer , god my sanctifier . i do believe upon the merit , death and passion of our blessed saviour christ jesus , and upon his mediation for the remission of my sins . i do believe and use with most humble reverence , the lords prayer , the creed of the apostles , and the ten commandments , as they are set down and allowed by the church of england . i do believe the canonical scriptures , that they are written by the inspiration of the holy spirit . i do believe the book of common prayer allowed of in the holy scripture , and in the church of england , to be an excellent form for the service of god , and to the use of the same ; and for the rest of my belief , i do refer it to the true orthodox faith of the church of england . and for the articles received at this present time in the church of england , and confirmed by the authority of parliament , i do not differ in any points , renouncing all the superstitious errors taught or believed in the church of rome , or any other church . in which faith i will continue , god willing , to my lives end ; in testimony whereof , i have here subscribed my hand the first day of may . then he proceeded . i acknowledge the great justice and mercy of the kings majesty ; his justice , in bringing me to the bar ; and his mercy in affording me such a noble and gracious trial here ; and i give his majesty humble and hearty thanks for signing my death to be in this manner , contrary to the sentence pronounced against me at my arraignment : but there is a greater favour than this , for which i am to render thanks unto his sacred majesty , and that is , the long time i have had to repent in ; whereof ( praysed by almighty god ) i can speak with comfort , i have made good use , and am now fully prepared for death , and much the better , by the good help and instruction of these two worthy men , to whom i acknowledge my self bounden , and do here before you all give them hearty thanks for their great pains taken in coming to me , praying for me , and preaching and reading to me . and i desire your lordships to present my humble acknowledgment to his majesty , and for his goodness in sending them to me , and my thanks for the same . i do also from my heart desire and beseech almighty god to bless the kings majesty , the queen , and the young prince , together with all such other issue as he shall hereafter in mercy bestow on them , and the whole state : and my trust and desire is there may be ever one of there line to sway the scepter of these kingdoms to the worlds end . and i beseech , and do heartily pray for the welfare and happy prosperity of the king and queen of bohemia , with all their princely issue . i do again desire your lordships to make tender of my humble acknowledgement of his mercy and goodness . and now lastly , that you will not bend your eyes so much upon me , as your hands and hearts to heaven in prayers for me ; and so i take my last farewel of your lordships and the world. then he went again to his private prayers , which being done , he prepared himself for death , striving to shew the like courage and magnanimity which he had formerly done , unto the last ; but sight of the headsman ( whom yet he freely forgave , and took him by the hand , bidding him do his office manfully ) together with the apprehension of his near approaching end , made him somewhat to change colour , and shew some signs of trembling passion ; for his hands shook a little in undoing his band-strings ; which his man perceiving , stept to him and helpt him , as also off with his doublet . then taking leave again of the lords , the doctors , and his man , saying a very short prayer by himself , he pulled down his handkercher over his face , and laid his head upon the block ; which was watched for by the executioner , who instantly at one blow smote it off . and thus died that great lord of castle-haven . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e if a man force a whore , yet he dieth by the law. no man being never so ill , but would have his wife better . the ladies were in a room behind the chancerie ; the lords that went to them were four , bedford , essex , warwick , & leicester the tryal of henry baron delamere for high-treason, in westminster-hall, the th day of january, , before the right honourable george lord jeffreys, baron of wemm, lord high chancellour of england, constituted lord high steward on that occasion on which day, after a full hearing, the lord delamere was acquitted from all matters laid to his charge. warrington, henry booth, earl of, - , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal of henry baron delamere for high-treason, in westminster-hall, the th day of january, , before the right honourable george lord jeffreys, baron of wemm, lord high chancellour of england, constituted lord high steward on that occasion on which day, after a full hearing, the lord delamere was acquitted from all matters laid to his charge. warrington, henry booth, earl of, - , defendant. 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in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng warrington, henry booth, -- earl of, - , -- defendant. trials (treason) - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - jason colman sampled and proofread - jason colman text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion i do appoint dorman newman to print the tryal of henry baron delamere , and order that no other person presume to print the same . march . / jeffreys canc. the tryal of henry baron delamere for high-treason , in westminster-hall , the th day of january , . before the right honourable george lord jeffreys , baron of wemm , lord high chancellour of england , constituted lord high steward on that occasion . on which day , after a full hearing , the lord delamere was acquitted from all matters laid to his charge . london , printed for dorman newman at the kings arms in the poultry . mdclxxxvi . the tryal of henry baron of delamere . die jovis , xiv to januarii , . cl. of cr. sergeant at arms , make proclamation . serj. at arm. o yes , o yes , o yes . my lord high steward of england his grace doth straightly charge and command all manner of persons to keep silence , and to give ear to the king's majesty's commission to his grace my lord high steward of england , upon pain of imprisonment . then the commission was read , his grace and all the peers standing up bare-headed . then the staff being carried between garter king at arms , and the gentleman usher of the black rod , was with three reverences delivered upon the knee to his grace , and by him re-delivered to the gentleman usher of the black rod , to hold during the service . cl. of cr. serjeant at arms , make proclamation . serg. at arm. o yes , his grace my lord high steward of england doth straightly charge and command all manner of persons here present , except peers , privy councellors , and the reverend judges now assistant , to be uncovered . cl. of cr. make proclamation . serg. at arms. o yes . my lord high steward of england his grace straightly chargeth and commandeth all justices , commissioners , and all and every other person and persons to whom any writ or precept has been directed for the certifying of any indictment or record before his grace my lord high steward of england , that they do certifie and bring in the same forthwith , according to the tenor of the same writ and precept , to them or any of them directed , upon pain and peril shall fall thereon . then sir edward lutwich one of his majesty's sergeants at law and chief justice of chester delivered in his writ and return at the clerks table . the writ of certiorari and the return thereof were read in haec verba . l. h. steward . call the lieutenant of the tower to return his precept , and bring his prisoner to the bar. cl. of cr. make proclamation . serg. at arms. lieutenant of the tower of london , return thy writ and precept to thee directed , together with the body of henry baron of delamere , thy prisoner , forthwith , upon pain and peril shall fall thereon . the prisoner was brought to the bar by the lieutenant of the tower : the writ and return thereof , together with his grace's precept , and the return thereof were read in haec verba . cl. of cr. make proclamation . serg. at arms. sir roger harsnet knight , sergeant at arms to our sovereign lord the king , return the precept to thee directed , together with the names of all the lords and noblemen of this realm of england , peers of henry baron of delamere , by thee summoned , forthwith , upon pain and peril shall fall thereon . the sergeant at arms delivered in his precept and return at the clerks table . l. h. steward . read the precept and the return . they were read in haec verba . cl. of cr. make an o yes . serg. at arms. o yes . all dukes , earls , viscounts , and barons of this realm of england , peers of henry baron of delamere , who by commandment of my lord high steward of england his grace , were summoned to appear here this day , and are now present in court , answer to your names , upon pain and perii will fall thereon . the peers summoned were called over , and those that appeared , standing up uncovered , answered to their names , each making a reverence to the lord high steward . cl. of cr. laurence earl of rochester lord high treasurer of england . l. h. treas . here. cl. of cr. robert earl of sunderland lord president of his majesty's privy council . lord presid . here. cl. of cr. henry duke of norfolk earl marshal of england . d. of norf. here. cl. of cr. james duke of ormond lord steward of his majesty's houshold . he did not appear . cl. of cr. charles duke of somerset . d. of som. here. cl. of cr. christopher duke of albermarle . he did not appear . cl. of cr. henry duke of grafton . d. of graft . here. cl. of the cr. henry duke of beaufort lord president of wales . d. of beauf. here. cl. of cr. john earl of mulgrave lord chamberlain of his majesty's houshold . e. of mulg . here. cl. of cr. aubery earl of oxford . e. of oxf. here. cl. of cr. charles earl of shrewsbury . e. of shrews . here. cl. of cr. theophilus earl of huntingdon . e. of hunt. here. cl. of cr. thomas earl of pembroke . e. of pemb. here. cl. of cr. john earl of bridgwater . e. of bridgw . here. cl. of cr. henry earl of peterborow . e. of peterb . here. cl. of cr. robert earl of scarsdale . e. of scarsd . here. cl. of cr. william earl of craven . e. of craven . here. cl. of cr. richard earl of burlington . he did not appear . cl. of cr. louis earl of feversham . e. of feversh . here. cl. of cr. george earl of berkeley . e. of berk. here. cl. of cr. daniel earl of nottingham . e. of notting . here. cl. of cr. thomas earl of plimouth . e. of plim . here. cl. of cr. thomas viscount falconberge . l. falconberge . here. cl. of cr. francis viscount newport treasurer of his majesty's houshold . l. newport . here. cl. of cr. robert lord ferrers . l. ferrers . here. cl. of cr. vere essex lord cromwell . l. cromwell . here. cl. of cr. william lord maynard comptroller of his majesty's houshold . l. maynard . here. cl. of cr. george lord dartmouth master general of his majesty's ordnance . l. dartmouth . here. cl. of cr. sidney lord godolphin . l. godolphin . here. cl. of cr. john lord churchill . l. churchill . here. then his grace the lord high steward addressed himself to the lord delamere the prisoner at the bar in this manner . l. h. steward . my lord delamere , the king being acquainted that you stand accused of high treason , not by common report or hearsay , but by a bill of indictment found against you by gentlemen of great quality , and known integrity within the county palatine of chester , the place of your residence , has thought it necessary in tenderness to you , as well as justice to himself , to order you a speedy tryal . my lord , if you know your self innocent , in the name of god , do not despond , for you may be assured of a fair and patient hearing , and in your proper time a free liberty to make your full defence : and i am sure you cannot but be well convinced , that my noble lords that are here your peers to try you , will be as desirous and ready to acquit you , if you appear to be innocent , as they will to convict you if you be guilty . but , my lord , if you are conscious to your self that you are guilty of this heinous crime , give glory to god , make amends to his vicegerent the king by a plain and full discovery of your guilt , and do not , by an obstinate persisting in the denial of it , provoke the just indignation of your prince , who has made it appear to the world , that his inclinations are rather to shew mercy than inflict punishments . my lord , attend with patience , and hear the bill of indictment that hath been found against you read . read the bill of indictment to my lord. cl. of cr. henry baron of delamere , hold up thy hand . l. delamere . my lord , i humbly beg your grace would please to answer me one question , whether a peer of england be obliged by the laws of this land to hold up his hand at the bar , as a commoner must do ; and i ask your grace this question the rather , because in my lord stafford's case it was allowed to be the priviledge of the peers not to hold up their hands . l. h. steward . my lords , this being a matter of the priviledge of the peerage , it is not fit for me to determine it one way or th' other ; but i think i may acquaint your lordships , that in point of law , if you are satisfied this is the person indicted , the holding , or not holding up of the hand is but a formality , which does not signifie much either way . l. delamere . i humbly pray your grace's direction in one thing farther , whether i must address my self to your grace when i would speak , or to your grace with the rest of these noble lords my peers . l. h. steward . you must direct what you have to say to me , my lord. l. delamere . i beg your grace would please to satisfie me whether your grace be one of my judges in concurrence with the rest of the lords ? l. h. steward . no , my lord , i am judge of the court , but i am none of your tryers . go on . cl. of cr. henry baron of delamere , thou standest indicted in the county palatine of chester by the name of henry baron of delamere of mere in the said county of chester , for that thou as a false traytor against the most illustrious and most excellent prince , james the second , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france and ireland , king , thy natural lord , not having the fear of god in thy heart , nor weighing the duty of thy allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , and true , due , and natural obedience which a true and faithful subject of our said lord the king , towards him our said lord the king , should and of right to bear , wholly withdrawing ; and contriving , practising , and with all thy might intending , the peace and common tranquillity of this kingdom of england to disquiet , molest , and disturb ; and war and rebellion against our said lord the king , within this kingdom of england , to stirr up , move , and procure , and the government of our said lord the king of this kingdom of england to subvert , change and alter , and our said lord the king from the title , honour , and kingly name of the imperial crown of his kingdom of england to depose and deprive , and our said lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put ; the fourteenth day of april in the first year of the reign of our said lord james the second now king of england , &c. and divers other days and times as well before as after , at mere in the county of chester aforesaid , falsely , maliciously , devilishly , and traiterously , with divers others false traytors and rebels , to the jurors unknown , didst conspire , compass , imagine , and intend our said lord the king , thy supreme , true and natural lord , not only from the kingly state , title , power , and government of his kingdom of england to deprive and cast down , but also the same our lord the king to kill , and to death to bring and put , and the antient government of this kingdom of england to change , alter , and wholly to subvert , and a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said lord the king throughout his whole kingdom of england , to cause and procure , and insurrection and rebellion against our said lord the king within this kingdom of england to procure and assist , and the same thy most wicked , most impious , and devilish treasons and traiterous compassing imaginations and purposes aforesaid to fulfil and bring to effect , thou the said henry baron of delamere , as a false traytor then and there , to wit , the said fourteenth day of april in the first year abovesaid , and divers other days and times as well before as after , at mere aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , falsly , unlawfully , wickedly , and traiterously with charles gerrard esq and other false traytors to the jurors unknown , didst assemble thy self , gather together , consult , and agree to raise and procure divers great summs of money , and a great number of armed men , war and rebellion within this kingdom of england to levy and make , and the city of chester in the county of the same city , as also the castle of our said lord the king of chester at chester in the county of chester aforesaid , and all the magazines in the same castle then being , to enter , take , seize , and surprise , and into thy possession and power to obtain ; and that thou the said henry baron of delamere afterwards , to wit , the th day of may , in the first year abovesaid , falsely , unlawfully , wickedly , and traiterously didst take a journey from the city of london unto mere aforesaid , in the county of chester aforesaid , thy traiterous purposes aforesaid to fulfil and perfect : and that thou the said henry baron of delamere , afterwards , to wit , the fourth day of june , in the first year abovesaid , at mere aforesaid , in the county of chester aforesaid , in further prosecution of thy unlawful , most wicked , and traiterous purposes aforesaid , divers liege people and subjects of our said lord the king , to the jurors unknown , with thee the said henry baron of delamere , and the aforesaid other false traytors , to the jurors unknown , falsely , unlawfully , and traiterously , in the war and rebellion aforesaid , and in thy traiterous purposes aforesaid , to join and adhere , didst excite , animate , and perswade , against the duty of thy allegiance , against the peace of our said lord the king that now is , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . how say'st thou henry baron of delamere , art thou guilty of this high treason whereof thou standest indicted , and hast been now arraigned , or not guilty ? l. delamere . my lord , i humbly beg the indictment may be read again . l. h. steward . let it be read again . which was done . l. delamere . may it please your grace , i humbly beg the favour to be heard a few words before i plead to this indictment . l. h. steward . my lord delamere , i am very unwilling to give your lordship any interruption , but according to the methods of law , which must be observed in your case , as well as all others , you must plead to the indictment before you be heard to any thing else . l. delamere . may it please your grace , i have something to offer to your grace's and their lordships consideration which is a matter of law. l. h. steward . i know not what matter of law you have to offer : if you have a mind to demur to the indictment , you may . l. delamere . will your grace please to hear what i have to say ? and then i shall submit it to your grace's judgment . l. h. steward . i would hear what you have to say , my lord , with all my heart , if i could : but i must then pass by all the forms and usual methods of proceeding , and that without any advantage to you too , and that i suppose your lordship will not desire of me . ask my lord , whether he be guilty , or not guilty ? cl. of cr. how sayst thou , henry baron of delamere , art thou guilty of this high treason whereof thou hast been indicted , or not guilty ? l. delamere . i beseech your grace to hear me , what i have to say , i shall not detain your grace very long , but i beg your grace to hear me . l. h. steward . my lord delamere , i must keep you to the known rules and methods of law : this is not your time to speak but to plead ; in your proper time you shall be fully heard whatsoever you have to say . l. delamere . if your grace please , i have something to say which concerns all the peers of england in point of right . l. h. steward . my lord , you must either plead , or demur to this indictment , that is the usual practice before any thing else can be done . l. delamere . my lord , i have a plea to offer to your grace and my lords ; and it is with reference to the priviledg and right of the peers of england . l. h. steward . if you have any plea to offer , it must be received , my lord. l. delamere . my lord , amidst the hardships i have lain under by my frequent imprisonments and close confinement — l. h. steward . my lord delamere , you must keep up to the legal method of proceedings : in cases of this nature i would , as far is possible for me to do , indulge a person of your quality , and in your condition ; but withal i must do right to the court , and not permit any breach to be made upon the legal course of proceedings . you must plead , or demurr to the indictment before you are heard to say any thing . l. delamere . will your grace be pleased to hear me tell you my reasons why i offer you a plea of this nature to the indictment ? l. h. steward . my lord , if you have any plea , put it in . l. delamere . will your grace be pleas'd to accept it as i have done it ? it may be it is not so formal , because i have had no councel allowed me to peruse and sign it . but as it is , i here offer it to your grace's consideration . l. h. steward . ay , put it in . then it was delivered to the clerk. l. h. steward . read it . cl. of cr. the humble plea of henry lord delamere , to the indictment of high treason against him , now to be tryed by the lord high steward and peers here assembled . the said lord delamere saving to himself all benefit of advantage of any further or other matter of exception to the generality , incertainty or insufficiency of the said indictment , and all matters and things which do or may concern the same , for plea hereunto saith , that he was by his majesty's writ summoned to this present parliament which began the nineteenth day of may last , and attended his duty there as a peer of this realm . that for high treason supposed to be committed by him , during the sitting of the same parliament ; he was the twenty sixth day of july last , committed , by warrant of the earl of sunderland one of his majesty's principal secretaries of state , to the tower of london . that the peers in parliament assembled , taking notice by his petition of the ninth of november last , of his being absent from his attendance in parliament , sent a message to his majesty to know the reason why he the said henry lord delamere , a peer of that house , was absent from his attendance there . upon the tenth day of november last , the lord treasurer reported his majesty's answer to the said message , viz. that the said lord delamere was absent from his attendance in parliament , because he stood committed for high treason , for levying war against the king this last summer , testifyed upon oath , and that his majesty had given directions that he should be proceeded against with all speed according to law. the house of peers not being satisfied with this answer , the debate thereof was adjourn'd till the monday morning following . on which day the lords resuming the debate concerning the lord delamere and the king's message ; after some debate , the lord chancellour , by his majesty's command , gave the house an account what proceedings had been against the lord delamere since his majesty's answer to their address concerning his absence from the house , which was to this effect : that the king had given order for a speedy prosecution of him : that the treason whereof he was accused was committed in cheshire ; and that being a county palatine , the prosecution ought to be there , and not in the king's bench ; as it might be if the treason had been committed in another county : and that therefore his majesty had given order for a commission of oyer and terminer into cheshire , in order to the finding of an indictment against him for the said treason : and that accordingly a commission of oyer and terminer was already sealed ; and if the indictment be not found before the end of the term , the said lord delamere's prayer being entred in the kings's bench , he should be bailed . all which proceedings do more fully appear in the journals of the said house of peers ; to which the said henry lord delamere doth refer himself . afterwards , that is to say , upon the 〈◊〉 day of 〈◊〉 the said parliament was prorogued by his majesty unto the tenth day of february next , as by the said journals it doth also appear . upon all which matters , the said henry lord delamere doth humbly tender this his plea to the jurisdiction of your lordships in this cause , and doth humbly conceive your lordships ought not to proceed in the tryal of him upon the indictment of high treason now before you : and that for these following reasons , first , inasmuch as it appears by the said petition of the said henry lord delamere , and the several orders of the lords , and the king's answers to the message of the lords thereupon , that the said house are already possessed of his said cause , which is for the same supposed treason for which he was at first committed , and which is the same treason for which he now stands indicted before your lordships . and for this reason your lordships , as he humbly conceives , by the law and custom of parliament , which is part of the law and custom of the land , ought not to proceed against him upon the said indictment ; but his said cause ought wholly to be determined and adjudged in the said house of peers , and not elsewhere , as in like cases has been formerly done . secondly , whereas it is the right and privilege of the peerage of this realm , that no peer thereof ought to be tryed or proceeded against for high treason during the continuance of the parliament , except in the said house of peers , and before . the whole body of the peers there . and whereas the aforesaid parliament is now continuing by prorogation until the tenth day of february next abovesaid , the said henry lord delamere humbly conceives that by the law and custom of parliament hitherto used , which is part of the law and custom of the realm , he ought not , nor can be tryed before your lordships for the said treasons , because the said parliament is still continuing , and not dissolved . and lastly , the said henry lord delamere doth further say , that he is the same henry lord delamere mentioned in the commitment , petitions , messages , answers and indictment now read unto him , and the said treason for which he was committed is the same treason mentioned in the commitment , petition , messages , answers , and indictment , as aforesaid . to which said indictment he humbly conceives he is not bound by law to make any further or other answer . l. delamere . may it please your grace , and you my noble lords , i do not offer this plea out of any diffidence or distrust in my cause , nor out of any dislike i have to any of your lordships that are here summoned to be my tryers ; i cannot hope to stand before any more just and noble , nor can i wish to stand before any others ; but your grace and my lords will pardon me if i insist upon it , because i apprehend it a right and priviledge doe to all the peerage of england , which , as it is against the duty of every peer to betray or forgoe ; so it is not in the power of any one , or more , to wave it , or give it up without the consent of the whole body of the peers , every one of them being equally interested . this , my lord , i humbly demand as my right and priviledge as a peer of england , and submit to the direction of your grace and my noble lords . l. h. steward . what say you to it , mr. attorney ? mr. attor . general . may it please your grace ; this plea that is here offered by this noble lord , is a plea to the jurisdiction , but , with submission , it needs very little answer , for it has very little in it : the force of the plea is , that he ought to be tryed by the whole body of the house of peers in parliament , because the parliament is still continuing , being under a prorogation and not dissolved ; and because there was some agitation of the matter concerning this prosecution , upon his petition , in the house of lords ; and therefore it concludes , that he ought not to be tryed by your grace and these noble lords upon this commission , but by all the lords in parliament . with submission , my lord , this is contrary to all the antient precedents , and against the known rules of law ; for the law is , if the king pleases to try a peer in parliament , then the record may be brought into the house , and there they proceed as in other cases , and all the peers are judges . thus it is in the time of a session of parliament ; but if the parliament be prorogued , there are many instances ( and indeed none to the contrary ) that after a prorogation , the proceedings are before the high steward by commission . and as to the other part of the case , i have this to say to it , that there is nothing at all depending in the house of lords that can oust this court of the jurisdiction ; for there was not so much as any indictment returned there , no , nor so much as found during the session of parliament . all the agitation was only upon my lords petition , and the king's answer ; that he intended as speedy a prosecution as could be : besides , my lord , your grace sees it is a plea in paper and in english , without any councels hand , and therefore i hope your grace does not expect that i should formally demur to a plea in this form , and that contains no more of substance in it . but i must desire your grace to over-rule it , and that the prisoner may plead in chief . l. delamere . my lord , i humbly pray that i may have councel , assigned me , to put my plea into form , and to argue the matter of it . l. h. steward . my lord delamere , i am sure i ought and ever shall be as tender of the priviledges of the peers of england , as any other person whatsoever : for i am concerned , as well in interest as inclination so to be , having the honour to be one my self : but i know your lordship will not think the priviledge of the peers is concerned in this matter ; nor will your lordship , i dare say , insist upon matters that are purely dilatory , if your lordship be satisfied that they are so : and therefore give me leave , my lord , to mind you of a few things , whereby your lordship will easily see . that the chief things on which you insist are grounded upon mistakes : first , you say , the house of peers was possessed of the cause ; which could not be , and i will tell you why : because there was no indictment ever removed thither , or lodged there . which plainly proves that the lords were never possessed of the cause . nor indeed was the bill found upon which you are now arraigned till after the prorogation of the parliament . so that they could never come to be possessed of this matter . these are mistakes in point of fact , and your lordship cannot but well know them to be so . and there is as great a mistake in the law , that during the continuance of a parliament ( though it were prorogued , yet if not dissolved ) a peer cannot be tryed but by the house of lords . this certainly is a very strange doctrine , and is not only against the reason and methods of law , but contrary even to your lordships own experience . for your lordship cannot but very well remember , that during the continuance of the parliament , after a prorogation , the lord cornwallis was tryed before the high steward , and such a number of peers as were then summoned , upon such a commission as i now sit here by . but indeed during the sitting of the parliament , then all the peers are both tryers and judges , as was in the cases of my lord stafford , and my lord of pembroke ; they being a court of judicature , then actually sitting ; and therefore this plea is grounded as upon mistake in fact , so , upon a mistake in point of law. so that though , as i said at first , it is both my duty and interest to preserve the priviledges of the peers , yet i must take care that no injury be done to the law ; and truly i take this plea to be altogether dilatory , and i suppose your lordship is satisfied of it , and will not insist upon it . l. delamere . if your grace please , it was alledged and agreed in the case of my lord of bristol , that the cause of a peer in time of parliament properly belong'd only to the house of lords ; and that which possessed the house of lords of his case , was , as i apprehend , no more than is in my case , a petition upon the account of being absent ; and there the lords claim the cognizance of the whole cause , and nothing was done but in the house of lords . and as to the instances your grace has mentioned of my lord cornwallis , ( and there was another of them , my lord morley ) this question was never under debate in those cases ; therefore i suppose they cannot be admitted as precedents . l. h. steward . but , my lord , it would have been an errour in the whole proceedings , if this court had not jurisdiction : and sure the judges , who are always called to assist in such cases ; and who , in matters of life , even in the cases of common persons , are so tender and careful , that there be no irregularity in the proceedings , would not have let things pass in that manner , had they been erroneous . l. delamere . my lord , i think no other precedents are produced but those two , and there the question was never debated . l. h. steward . i only put you in mind of those that were lately within memory ; but no question of it there are a great many more instances to be given . mr. attor . gen. i pray your grace's judgment to over-rule the plea , and that my lord may plead in chief . l. delamere . i hope your grace will be pleased to assign me councel to put my plea in form ; and that i may have time for it , that they may be heard to make a solemn argument in law. l. h. steward . my lord , if you insist upon it , and think it worth the while to have councel heard , we will hear them . l. delamere . i submit it to your grace , i only offer it that i may not be wanting to the support of the peers priviledges ; i assure your grace , i speak not to put off the cause , for i am willing to come to my tryal , and i have reason so to be , for i question not but to make my innocence appear . l. h. steward . my lord , i tell you what my opinion of the plea is , but if you insist upon it to have your councel heard , i will hear them . l. delamere . i have no councel here , if your grace please to give me time to send for them , and that they may prepare to argue it . mr. attor . gen. no , my lord , if your grace will hear councel , i for the king must pray that it may be done presently ; for a plea to the jurisdiction is never favoured , nor is the party to be allowed time to maintain it , but he must be ready at the time it is offered . l. delamere . pray , my lord , how was it done in the case of fitz-harris , his plea was a plea to the jurisdiction , and he had four days allowed him to put his plea in form , and to instruct his councel . l. h. steward , i am not able at present to remember what was done in such or such a particular case : but according to the general method and course of law , the plea to the jurisdiction is not favoured , nor time allowed to it , but the party must be ready to maintain it presently . mr. attorn . gen. but , with submission , my lord , that case of fitz harris is nothing to this noble lord's case neither : there was a formal plea put in in writing , and drawn up in latine , and a formal demurrer joined ; and thereupon i did take time to speak to it . but , with your grace's favour , by the law , the prisoner must be always ready to make good his plea , if he will oust the court of their jurisdiction . l. h. steward . mr. attorney , if my lord delamere does insist upon having his councel heard , it is not fit for me to refuse hearing what they can say . mr. attor . gen. but that must be presently then , my lord. l. delamere . it is my duty , my lord , to submit to what your grace and my noble lords shall determine : i would insist upon nothing that should offend your grace or them . mr. att. gen. if your grace pleases , you are the only judge in this case in matters of law : for these noble lords , the peers , are only tryers of the fact. therefore , i appeal to your grace's judgment , and pray for the king , that this plea may be over-ruled ; it being vitious , and naught , both in form and substance . lord h. steward . my lord delamere , i must acquaint you , that , according to the constitution of this court , matters of law are determined by me , as the sole judge , while i have the honour to act under this commission : but if your lordship insist upon it , to have your councel heard , god forbid that i should deny it you. i will hear what your councel will say : and afterwards i will , according to the best of my understanding , deliver my judgment . lord delamere . my lord , i have never had any councel assigned me . lord h. steward . my lord , if you have any councel ready , we will hear them . lord delamere . if your grace please to assign me councel , and give me time to send for them , and them time to prepare . i will obey your grace's directions ; but i could have none here ready , because none were assigned me . lord h. steward . my lord , you cannot , by the course of law , have councel allowed you in the case of a capital crime , till such time as the court , where you are called to answer , is apprized , that there is some matter of law in your case , that may need councel to be heard , to inform their judgment , and which they may think convenient to hear councel to : for if in case any prisoner at the barr shall before-hand be allowed to have councel to start frivolous objections , such as this ( and we all know , that there are some who will be easily prevailed with , to endeavour to pick holes where there are none ) and to offer matters foreign from the things whereof the party stands accused ; and upon the prisoner's bare request , councel must be heard to every trivial point , the courts of law would never be at an end in any tryal ; but some dilatory matter or other , would be found to retard the proceedings : but it does not consist with the grandeur of the court , nor your lordship's interest , to let such a frivolous plea interrupt your lordship's tryal . however , if your lordship has councel ready , i will not refuse to hear them . lord delamere . my lord , i hope , the priviledge of the peers of england , is not frivolous . i assure your grace , i do not offer this matter , as if i thought it more conducing to my interest , than my tryal now . no , my lord , it is not for my self , but for the whole body of peers , of which i have the honour to be a member : and if my lords , here , are satisfied it is not the right and priviledge of the peers , i acquiesce . lord h. steward . pray , good my lord , do not think that i should say any such thing , that the priviledge of the peers is frivolous ; for you do not hear me say , that this is one of their priviledges . as i would not willingly mistake you ; so i desire your lordship would not misapprehend or misrepresent me. i spoke not at all of the peer's priviledge , but of your plea : i tell your lordship , i think your plea is not a good plea , to oust this court of the jurisdiction of your cause . but if your lordship have a mind to have your councel heard to it , in god's name , let them come ; they shall be heard : and when that is done , to satisfie you the more , i will advise with my lords the judges , that are there to assist , what they take to be the law in the case ; and , upon the whole , i will deliver my judgment as well as i can . lord delamere . i hope , your grace will be pleas'd to advise with my lords , the peers , here present ; it being upon a point of priviledge . lord h. steward . good my lord , i hope you that are a prisoner at the barr , are not to give me direction , who i should advise with , or how i should demean my self here . lord delamere . i beg your grace's pardon ; i did not intend to give your grace any direction . lord h. steward . my lord , i shall take care to perform that duty that is incumbent upon me , and that with all tenderness to your lordship : and , i assure your lordship , i will have as much care that i do not injure you , as i will that i do not wrong my own conscience ; and i will endeavour to discharge my duty to both , with the utmost fidelity . lord delamere . i humbly thank your grace ; i question it not : but if your grace please — lord h. steward . my lord , you must pardon me ; i can enter into no further interlocutions with your lordship . if your lordship have any mind to have any councel heard , and your councel be ready , we will hear them . lord delamere . if your grace require of me to produce councel presently , and they to argue it immediately , i must acquaint your grace , i cannot do it : for i have none here . lord h. steward . my lord , i cannot tell how to help it ; the plea must then be over-ruled and rejected . clerk of the crown . henry , baron of delamere , art thou guilty of the high-treason whereof thou standest indicted , and hast been now arraign'd , or not guilty ? lord delamere . not guilty . clerk of the crown . culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? lord delamere . by god , and my peers . clerk of the crown . god send thee good deliverance . sergeant at arms , make proclamation . sergeant at law. o yes . if any one will give evidence on behalf of our soveraign lord the king , against henry , baron of delamere , the prisoner at the barr , concerning the high-treason whereof he stands indicted , let them come forth , and they shall be heard ; for now he stands at the barr , upon his deliverance . then his grace gave the charge to the peers tryers in this manner : lord h. steward . my lords , i know you cannot but well remember , what unjust and insolent attempts were made upon the rightful and unalterable succession to the imperial crown of these realms , under the pretence of that , which has been so often found to be the occasion of rebellion ; i mean , the specious pretence of religion , by the fierce , froward , and phanatical zeal of some members of the house of commons , in the last parliaments under the late king , charles the scond , of ever blessed memory . which , by the wonderful providence of almighty god , not prevailing , the chief contrivers of that horrid villany , consulted together how to gain that advantage upon the monarchy by open force , which they could not obtain by a pretended course of law. and in order thereto , it is but too well known , how they had several treasonable meetings , made bold and riotous progresses into several parts of the king's dominions , thereby endeavouring to debauch the minds of the well-meaning , though unwary and ignorant , part of the king's subjects . but these their evil purposes , it pleased god also to frustrate , by bringing to light that cursed conspiracy against the life of his sacred majesty , king charles the second ; as also , against that of our dread soveraign , that now is , whom god long preserve . these hellish and damnable plots , one would have thought , could not have survived the just condemnation and execution of some of the chief contrivers of them ; especially considering , that after it had pleased almighty god , to take to himself our late merciful and dread soveraign , no sooner was his sacred majesty , that now is , seated in the royal throne of his ancestors ; but he made it his utmost endeavours , not only to convince the world , that he had quite forgot those impudent and abominable indignities that had been put upon him , only for being the best of subjects , and the best of brothers : but did also give forth the most benign assurances imaginable to all his loving people , that he would approve himself to be the best of kings . and further , to evince the reality of these his gracious and heroick resolutions , he immediately called a parliament ; and therein repeated , and solemnly confirmed his former royal declarations of having a particular care of maintaining our establish't laws and religion : with which that wise , great , and loyal assembly , were so fully and perfectly satisfied , that they thought they could not make sufficient returns of gratitude for such gracious and princely condescentions . and yet , my lords , while the king and the parliament were thus , as i may say , endeavouring to out-do each other in expressions of kindness , that wicked and unnatural rebellion broke out ; and thereupon the arch-traytor , monmouth , was , by a bill brought into the lower-house , and pass'd by the general consent of both houses , ( and i could wish , my lords , for the sake of that noble lord at the barr , that i could say , it had pass'd with the consent of every particular member of each house ) justly attainted of high-treason . my lords , what share my lord at the barr had in those other matters , i must acquaint you , is not within the compass of this indictment , for which you are to try him , as his peers : for that is for a treason alledged to have been committed by him , in his majesty's reign that now is . give me leave , my lords , to detain you but with a word or two more on this occasion ; and that is , to let you know , that as my lord at the barr may , with great safety and security to himself , rely upon your lordship's candor and integrity , that you will be tenderly careful , and ready to acquit him of the treason whereof he is accused , if upon the evidence that shall be given you , you shall find him innocent : so i must tell you , the king has an entire confidence in your resolution , fidelity , and good affections to him , that you will not , by reason of the prisoner's quality , and nearness to you , as being a peer of this realm , acquit him if he shall appear to be guilty . my lords , i have one thing further to mind your lordship 's of , that , according to the usual forms of proceedings in these cases , if your lordship's have any questions to propound , wherein you would be satisfied as to any matter either of fact or law , your lordships will be pleased to put those questions to me , and i shall take care to give your lordships the best satisfaction i can . lord delamere . my lord high steward , i beg the favour of your grace , i may have one to write for me . lord h. steward . ay , by all means ; let my lord have whom he pleases to write for him . then sir thomas jenner , one of his majesty's serjeants at law , and recorder of the city of london , opened the indictment thus : mr. recorder . may it please your grace , my lord high steward of england , and you my noble lords , the peers of the prisoner at the barr : henry , baron of delamere , the prisoner at the barr stands indicted for that he , as a false traytor against the most illustrious and most excellent prince , our-soveraign lord the king that now is ; not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance ▪ the fourteenth day of april last , at meer , in the county of chester , did maliciously conspire , with other false traytors , to the jurors unknown , the death and deposing of the king : and for the better , and more effectual fulfilling of those his treasons , the said fourteenth day of april , at meer afore-said , did maliciously and trayterously assemble , consult , and agree with charles gerrard , esq and other false traytors , to raise great summs of money , and procure numbers of armed men , to make a rebellion against the king , and the city and castle of chester to seize , with the magazines there : and that afterwards , the twenty-seventh day of may last , he took a journey from london to meer aforesaid , to accomplish his treasonable intentions . and further , that upon the fourth day of june , in further prosecution of his trayterous purposes at meer aforesaid , he did encite divers subjects of our lord the king , to joyn with him , and other false traytors , in his treason : and this is laid to be against the duty of his allegiance , against the peace of our soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . to this indictment , may it please your grace , and the rest of these noble lords , my lord delamere , the prisoner at the barr , has pleaded not guilty ; and for his tryal , has put himself upon his peers . we shall therefore call our witnesses for the king ; and if we prove him guilty , we do not question , but your lordships will find him so . mr. att. gen. may it please your grace , my lord high steward of england , and you my noble lords , the peers : my lord delamere , the prisoner at the barr , stands indicted for conspiring the death of his majesty , and in order thereunto to raise a rebellion in the kingdom . my lords , in proving this charge upon him , we crave leave to give your grace , and your lordships , some short account by witnesses , that we have here , of a former design that was previous to this matter , for which this noble lord stands here accused : and we shall not trouble your grace , and your lordships , with any long evidence , because it has received many solemn and repeated tryals ; and , as to the proof of it , has been confirmed by as many verdicts . but we do it rather , to give some account as an introduction to a material evidence , by shewing , that cheshire , which was the province of this noble lord , was one of the stages , where that rebellion was principally to be acted ; and that , preparatory to it , great riotous assemblies , and tumultuous gatherings of the people , were set on foot by the conspirators . we shall then shew , my lords , that after the late duke of monmouth , ( the head of the conspiracy ) went beyond sea , ( especially after the death of the late king ) frequent messages , and intercourse of correspondency , were sent and held between him , and the rest of his accomplices abroad , and their fellow - conspirators here at home . and particularly , we shall prove , that a little before the rebels came over last summer , into the west , the duke of monmouth did dispatch one jones ( who was one of the most considerable agents in this contrivance ) to come from holland into england , to let his friends know , that though he had intended to go into scotland , and begin his work there ; yet now his resolutions were for england ; where , he hoped , his friends would be prepared for him . and with this message , and resolution of his , jones was to acquaint some lords , ( who they were , the witness will tell your lordships ; but ) among others , this noble lord , the prisoner , was one : and to acquaint them besides , that he would immediately set sayl for england , whither he would come so soon as he could get . that he had a design to have landed in cheshire , where he expected to be most readily receiv'd ; but finding that inconvenient , they should have notice four or five days before-hand , of the place of his landing ; which , he intended , should be in the west . and among the directions that jones had to give to those lords , one was , that they should immediately repair into cheshire , there to wait for the news . these instructions jones had given him in writing ; but sealed up with an injunction , not to open them till he came to sea ; and then he was to peruse that writing , and deliver his message according to his instructions : and in that writing was the name of this noble lord , as one that was principally relyed on , to carry on the rebellion in cheshire . and we shall give you an account , that the late duke of monmouth did look upon cheshire , as one of his main supports ; and upon my lord delamere , as a principal assistant there . my lords , this message was jones to communicate to captain mathews , and captain mathews was to transmit it to this noble lord , and the other persons that were concern'd with him . jones arrived with this message here in england , upon the twenty-seventh of may ; [ and i must beg your lordships , to observe the time particularly : ] but captain mathews , to whom he was directed , was not to be found ; nor major wildman , to whom , in the absence of captain mathews , he was to apply himself , as you will hear more fully from the witness 's own mouth : thereupon he sends for one disney , ( a name which your lordships cannot but know , he being since executed for treason ) and one brand , whom your lordships will likewise hear of ; and they meet with this same jones , who communicates his message to them , and they undertake to deliver it to the persons concern'd ; captain mathews being out of town , and major wildman not to be found . that very night , my lords , this same brand and disney they meet this noble lord , my lord delamere at the coffee-house , and give him an account of the messages : and as soon as ever he had received the message , upon that twenty-seventh of may , at ten of the clock at night , does my lord delamere dispatch out of town , with only one servant to attend him , and two other friends that he had pick't up , or appointed to meet him , and go with him . with all these badges of plot and design , does my lord delamere set out that night . it was the same night that jones came to town : it was late at night . he changed his name , and went by the name of brown. he chose to go all the by-roads , and would not keep the high-common-road ; and went with great speed , as we cannot but presume according to the message delivered by jones , on purpose to repair into cheshire . and if your lordships please to observe , you will find several remarkable instances of plot and contrivance in the matter : first , that a nobleman , and one of considerable a character in his country , as my lord delamere , should make such haste out of town with small an equipage , as but one servant ; then , that he should go so late at night : again , that he should change his name ; and that should prove to be a name not casually taken up , as the first name he could think of next his own ; but a name of distinction , that he was known by among all his own party : for all the communications between the confederates and him , were managed , as to him , under the name of brown : by that name , several of the late duke of monmouth's trayterous declarations were sent for ; which were to be sent to him , or by him , into cheshire : and that alone , with submission , my lords , would be a shrewd circumstance of suspicion , that a noble lord , such an one as my lord delamere , should assume the name of a commoner , and post out of town so ill accompanied in a disguise at that time of night ; especially the parliament being then sitting , as really it was . but besides all this circumstantial evidence , we shall prove , by positive testimony , what the hasty business was , that made my lord undertake this journey in this manner : for , having notice of the duke of monmouth's intention to land speedily in england , when he comes into cheshire , he actually sets about the work to put that county in a forwardness to assist in the rebellion , endeavours to stir up the people to joyn with him ; and acquaints one that he imployed in that affair , with the whole design , that he was engaged to raise so many thousand men , and so much money , to be ready by such a day . nor does my lord rest here : but , after the duke of monmouth was landed in the west , to corrupt the minds of the people , we shall prove what discourses he had , ( and these will testifie his inclinations to the cause ) concerning the great victories he had obtained over the king's forces , and how he applauded his conquests . my lords , we shall plainly shew you all this that i have opened in plain proof ; and then , we shall submit it to your lordships judgments , whether this noble peer be not guilty , as he has pleaded to his indictment . lord h. steward . call your witnesses , mr. attorney ; who do you begin with ? mr. att. gen. my lord howard of escrick : we desire he may be first sworn . which was done . lord h. steward . well , what do you ask my lord howard ? mr. att. gen. my lord , i call you to give an account what you know of a design of an insurrection that was to have been ; and in what parts ; and what share cheshire was to have had in it , in the late king's time. lord h. steward . you hear the question ; what say you to it , my lord ? lord howard . my lord , i am to direct my self to speak to what was done in the late king's time : for , as to that noble lord at the barr , i have nothing to say against him . lord h. steward . my lord howard , if i apprehend mr. attorney aright , you are not called as a particular witness against my lord delamere ; but only to give an account , what was agreed upon in any consultations , where you were present , in the late king's time , about a conspiracy for an insurrection ? lord howard . if so , my lord , then i am called , not to be an evidence against my lord delamere , but , against my self ; that is , to repeat what i have often delivered at several tryals , in the courts of justice ; and which i must always repeat with shame and confusion for my guilt , as i cannot but always reflect upon it with sorrow and horror . but if it be for the service of his majesty , and this honourable court , for me so to do , i shall endeavour to comply with it , and repeat it as well as i can , by the assistance of a broken memory ; it being an account of things done several years past , and from a memory interrupted by such accidents as are very well known , and as have disabled me to make a more distinct and particular relation before so great an auditory . my lords , i suppose , it will be expected , i should begin my account with the occasion and ground , and the time when those things happened . lord h. steward . take your own method , my lord. lord howard . truly , my lord , i am not able to fix the particular time , unless you will give me leave to reckon the years by the sheriffs of london , as the romans used to do theirs by their consuls ; for i have no other means of computing the exact time. lord h. steward . pray , my lord , tell the times , as near as you can , and use what helps for your memory you think best . lord howard . my lords , it was in that year , when mr. shute , and mr. pilkington were sheriffs for the city of london : and at that time , it is well known how great heats did arise upon the contests that were in the city , about election of officers for the year ensuing , — mr. attorney general . may it please your grace , my lord delamere seems to be faint with standing : if your grace please , a chair may be provided , for my lord to sit in . lord h. steward . ay , by all means : let a chair be provided for my lord to sit down . go on , my lord. lord howard . my lord , i was saying , that the contests about the disputed election of sheriffs , had occasioned such heats in the city of london , and other places , that it was even beyond the common expressions of discontent : i knew nothing of any particular design there was in hand till about six weeks after , when captain walcot came to me , a person i had known some time before , and , upon discourse , acquainted me , that he had found out that there were some persons engaged in a considerable action that was near its execution , and that in order to it , he had had notice given him to make preparation , and thereupon he had thought fit , for that reason , to withdraw from the place where he did at that time lodge , ( which was in red-lyon-court in fleet-street , as i remember ) and betake himself to a private lodging , that he might be the readier for action ; and to put himself into a better equipage for joyning in the enterprise , he had bought himself a horse , and sent his son into ireland to turn all he could into ready mony , and return it , that he might be the better able to go through with the undertaking . my lords , this was a great surprise to me ; for though i knew , as all the rest of the world did , that there were great discontents , yet , till then , i never had any intimation of any particular design : i told him i was going into the country , but should be glad to know how things went , and desired him to write to me , and gave him a little cabala or cipher to disguise the matter he was to write about : and when i was in the country , i did receive several letters which intimated something of a design that was going on , and at last he writ , with some warmth to me , of a necessity we were under to enter into action ; and of the readiness of my correspondents ; ( for the stile of the letters was that of merchants , for so was the cant that i had given him ) : but truly i was not over-hasty in my return to london , because i rather chose to see what would be the issue of what was then projected , before i did intermeddle in such an affair , and so made use of all the delayes i could to retard my return , and came not to town till that week which determined the long-continued controversy in london ; nay , and then also avoided meeting with any body in any set-way , till i could better see how things were managed , and what event they would probably come to ; thereupon i would not go to my own house , but took up my lodging at mile-end , and lay there or days , till the day came for confirming the new-elected sheriffs , and the election of a new lord mayor , which , as i take it , is on the day before michaelmas-day , and michaelmas-day : when that day was over , i could not find there was any intention of entring into any sort of action ; i found indeed there were great murmurings in the mouths of all sorts of people , and very angry warm speeches , and nothing else : so i thought the business was over for that time , and thereupon away i went to my own house . this , my lords , was upon the saturday as i remember : upon the monday morning , captain walcot came to me , and desired that he might have some private discourse with me in my garden ; and there he told me , my lord shaftsbury had withdrawn himself , and that he did believe things were in a great preparation for action : i desired him to tell me what it was ; he answered me , that he desired to be excused in that , for i must go to my lord shaftsbury , who would give me an account of the whole ; and withall he told me , my lord shaftsb●●● had been much deserted and ill used by those lords upon whose concurrence he had rely'd , and that was the reason why he had withdrawn himself , and kept himself so private : i told him , i did not know my lord shaftsbury had any desire to speak with me ; yes he said he had , for he had sent him to me on purpose , and he was to bring back my answer , whether i would joyn or no. i told him , if my lord desired to speak with me , i would wait upon him , and thereupon i went with him , and he carried me to a place where my lord shaftsbury was retired in the city , somewhere about foster-lane or wood-street , at the house of one watson : when i came there , after salutation , my lord shaftsbury began to make great reflections upon the misery and badness of the times , particularly , upon the issue of that great affair , the election of the sheriffs , which had ended so unfortunately to the terror of all good men : for whereas before the great and sure resort of innocency , was to the integrity of our juries , when returned by fair and equal sheriffs , they looked upon the eagerness of getting those persons sworn that were then in office to be a designe to intrap the innocent , the elected sheriffs being esteemed persons that would accommodate themselves to the humour of the court ; and now every man must be run down for crimes that he was no way guilty of , if the singer of the court did but point him out to destruction . the apprehension of this , he said , had made him withdraw himself , not knowing how soon he might be seiz'd , should he have remain'd in publick ; and he thought the danger was as imminent upon , and likely to reach to others , as well as to him ; and particularly to my self , and therefore , he said , the sense of this danger ought to put every englishman that had a value for his country , and any thing that was dear to him in it , upon using his utmost endeavours to give some prevention to those calamities which were impendent over us , and which threatned the destruction of all men that stood up for the rights of the people ; and this , he said , was his resolution . my lord , in order to this , he declared to me , what preparations had been made for the raising of force for this purpose ; he said , there were eight or ten thousand men ( i cannot fix the particular number ) that he was well assured to have ready in the city ; that there had been divers horse ( i think about fourscore or an hundred he named ) that about a fortnight before , had been , by parcels , drawn into the town , without being observed ; and these were in daily expectation to go into action ; but through the unhandsome disappointment of the duke of monmouth , and the other lords that adhered to him , who were to have joyned in the acti●●● and have set the wheels at work in other parts , he was ●●●t alone to do the whole in his province of london , they being not ready to concurr according to their engagement : but as he should have the greater danger , so he should have the greater glory ; and he resolved to go through with the attempt , or perish in the execution . to all this discourse , i gave such an answer as the nature of the thing required : i told my lord shaftsbury , i could not deny all those things to be true , as he had represented them in his discourse ; and that i would not distrust his judgment so much , as to suppose , he would enter upon such an affair , without due deliberation of all the circumstances requisite to it ; and so i would not question , but there was such preparations , and that he had assurance of such a force , as he had spoke of , whenever they should begin any action : but i told him something stuck with me , and troubled me very much , that , in a time of such difficulty , when the convenient help of the nation was all little enough to joyn in the work , he should stand by himself , and engage in such an enterprize , in separation from those other lords , of whose help there would be so much need : he said , he could not help it , they had appointed this time and that , but now , when it came to the push , they were not ready to do their parts ; but the people were now in such expectation of something to be done , especially in london , that it was impossible to restrain them , and as impossible to get those lords ready to joyn with them : i told him , i was altogether unacquainted with the proceedings in this affair , and that all of it was wholly new to me : but pray , my lord , said i , give me leave to act that part in this business , that , i think , will most conduce to the successful issue of it , which is , to be a mediator between you ; and let me desire you to let things rest as they are , till i have endeavoured to create a better understanding between your lordship , and those lords , of whose tergiversation you seem to complain . upon this , my lord was in : a great heat , and express'd himself with great warming but at last , with much ado , he gave me permission to go to the duke of monmouth , and assure him , and the rest of the lords that were concern'd , and tell them from him , that , if they would be ready to take the posts that were assign'd them , according to their own former agreement , and immediately enter upon action , he would joyn with them , but if not , he was resolved to go on alone . this was , as i remember , upon tuesday , the second of october ; upon the wednesday morning , i went to find out the duke of monmouth , but coming to his lodgings , he was gone to moor-pank , where , when i came , i found several persons with him , i but after a little time , i separated him from the company , and whispering to him , i gave him to understand , how great a disorder i found my lord shaftsbury in , and how great a complaint he made of his being deserted by him , and the other lords engaged with him , and what resolution he had taken to set upon the work alone : my lord , sayes he , i think the man is mad , his fear makes him lose his understanding ; i do not know why he hides himself from his friends , that no body can telll where he is ; but as to that which he speaks of , oft our forsaking him , and breach of faith , he is mistaken ; for , 't is true indeed , we are about doing the thing , that he is so eager for , but we are not for doing it so hastily , as his fears precipitate him to do ; and he must excuse us , if we comply not with his humour , to hazard the whole undertaking by a rash beginning . upon that , i said to him , my lord , i shall not discourse the particularities of the business with your grace ; but this is all that i at present address to your grace for , to be a means , if i can , with your grace , as i have been with him , to procure a meeting between you , that you may settle it with one another . withal my heart , sayes the duke , pray let it be so ; for , though my lord shaftsbury is angry without a cause , yet i would not have him lose himself in a temerarious undertaking : my lord , said i , i will tell him what you say , and will see if i can work him to a complyance with the proposal . the next day , being thursday , my lord , i went to my lord shaftsbury again , and reported to him , the discourse i had with the duke of monmouth , and what answer he had given to his complaint of their deserting him : he reply'd , it was false , they had positively ingaged to be ready by such a time , and had appointed the very day ; but now they were off , and would not tell when they would be ready and withal , he told me , he greatly suspected the duke of monmouth to have a secret correspondence with the king. i then desired him , that he would please to consent to the treaty that was proposed , and give the duke of monmouth , and the lords a meeting ; he , in great heat , replyed , no , he would come no more at them : it is strange , my lord , said i , that you should have such an opinion of these men , that they would go about to betray you ; they are not men of that size : but he persisted in it , that they had dealt perfidiously with him : for , after a positive agreement , when the thing was brought just to the birth , they withdrew their helping-hand ; but he was sure , in london , he could raise a sufficient force to do the work , and if he were but once set on horse-back , he would head them himself : but yet he was willing to put it off for a fortnight , or three weeks longer , if they would be sure to keep pace with him . with this proposal i went the next day , which was friday , to the duke of monmouth , and had the same answer from him , that i had before ; but withal , he bid me tell my lord shaftsbury , that he did make it his earnest request to him , to give him , and his other friends a meeting , before he engaged in this business : for , he found by his precipitation , he was about to destroy himself , and all that adhered to him . thereupon , i came to my lord shaftsbury again , upon the saturday ; and when i came there , after a long and importunate urging all the arguments i could think of ; i so far prevailed with him , that he agreed to give them a meeting , upon condition , that it should be the next day ; and because it should be so private , that no notice might be taken of it , he chose to have the meeting at his own house , where no body would suspect him to be , and whither he would be conveyed , under the disguise of a parson . i went back with this message to the duke of monmouth , who did undertake , that the other lords should be there . lord h. steward . my lord howard , not to interrupt you , did he name those other lords ? if he did , pray acquaint my lords , who they were ? lord howard . my lord shaftsbury named my lord russel , and my lord gray , and a great many more that should bear their parts . i went to the duke of monmouth , and told him of it , i say , and he engaged , that they should certainly be there : but , upon the sunday morning , when i came to the temple , there i found a message left for me , that my lord shaftsbury had receiv'd an alarum , that there were some great toryes lived near his house in aldersgate-street , who were continually spying about ; and so great a company might make their more than ordinary observation . that this gave him such a jealousy , as would not permit him to meet according to his appointment : afterwards , i came to a better understanding of the reason of this , and found there was some fineness in it , ( which i could not comprehend before ; but after this time , i never saw my lord shaftsbury , for he removed then to other lodgings . so that , what i now speak of him , is only what i had , by hear-say , from others : for , i had no knowledge of what pass'd , as to him , but what i had from capt. walcot ; who told me , that after that , there were several dayes of meeting appointed , but still , from time to time , put off ; but upon what reason , i cannot particularly remember . this is all i know of my lord shaftsbury ; and the latter part is wholly by hear-say from walcot : but by reason of this agitation , we continued under expectation till such time as my lord shaftsbury went into holland ; where he shortly after died . and truly , i thought , at that time , much of the design was quashed , and laid aside : but , soon after , ferguson came over ; who , when he came here , began to revive and quicken the business , and push it on to execution . i spoke with him at the one bell in the strand ; and there he gave me an account of all the steps that had been taken : he told me what preparations had been made in the city , in general ; what to seize the gates of the city ; what to possess themselves of the tower ; what to attacque the guards ; and several other things , which i can't now so well remember ; the impressions of them being worn out of my memory , by length of time , and other accidents . this , in general , is all that i can say , as to what was previous to the particular engagement wherein i was concern'd : for , at last , after many discourses , the troubles and difficulties of the times increasing , and the dangers that threatned us , as we thought , growing higher and higher , this gave an occasion for our uniting councels , and entring into a kind of juncto ; which , i suppose , is foreign to this affair before your lordships ; and therefore , i suppose , would be likewise impertinent for me , to trouble your lordships with . l. h. steward . mr. attorney , do you desire my lord howard should give an account of those other meetings , and consultations , at which he was present ? mr. att. gen. my lord , i think there will be no need of it ; and i am unwilling to take up your grace's time , to no purpose . lord howard . as for that noble lord at the barr , i know nothing concerning him . lord h. steward . then , gentlemen , will you have him asked any more questions ? mr. att. gen. no , my lord. lord h. steward . my lord delamere , will you ask him any questions ? lord delamere . no , my lord. mr. att. gen. before my lord howard goes , i would ask him one question in general , whether he knew of any design of a rising in cheshire ? lord howard . no , my lord , i knew of none at all . mr. att. gen. then we desire my lord gray may be sworn . which was done . mr. att. gen. pray , will you give his grace , and my lords an account , what you know of any designs of an insurrection or rebellion , when you were beyond sea , or before ? and who were engaged in it ? lord gray . my lord , i am subpoena'd hither , on behalf of the king ; and i am also subpoena'd on behalf of my lord , the prisoner at the barr : i do not know any thing , that i can speak of my own knowledge , against the prisoner ; nor have i any thing to say , that i know of , that will be for his advantage . but i am here ready to answer such questions , as shall be asked of me , either of one side , or the other . mr. att. gen. my lord , the question i ask you , is , what do you know of any design of a rising in cheshire , and when ? lord gray . about the time of election of sheriffs for the city of london ; i mean that memorable time of the contested election , which furnished the world with so much discourse , and was the occasion of such heats and animosities : about that time , the duke of monmouth , and my lord of shaftsbury began to discourse about making use of that , as an opportunity to accomplish their design ; for they thought the ferment was so high , that men would easily be disposed to an insurrection ; and after many discourses to that purpose , they came to this resolution , that they would apply themselves to make what interest they could , to procure a rising in three several parts of the kingdom at once : one in cheshire , whither the duke of monmouth was to betake himself : and there be advised by my lord macclesfield , my lord brandon , my lord delamere that then was , and the prisoner at the barr , what gentlemen were proper to apply to , for joyning in the design : the second was in london , which was assigned to be the province of my lord of shaftsbury ▪ and the third was , in the west ; which was committed to the care of my lord russel . the duke of monmouth did accordingly go his progress into cheshire , as is very well known ; and , upon his return , was taken into custody by the serjeant at arms : upon which , sir thomas armstrong was sent post to town , and get an habeas corpus ; and withal , to deliver a message to me , to be communicated with my lord russel , and my lord shaftsbury : which message , as near as i remember , was to this effect ; that he had been kindly received by the gentlemen of the country ; and had discours'd the matter with them , and found them all inclined very much to his satisfaction : that upon his being arrested , he had been advised to make his escape into cheshire , and rise immediately ; but that he would not do a matter of that great importance , without the approbation of his friends . this is all that i know of any thing , that was designed in cheshire . mr. att. gen. pray , my lord , what do you know of any messages that capt. matthews or jones brought over from holland , and to whom , and from whom ? l. gray , sir i will give the best account i can , upon the sudden , for i am not prepared to give a particular distinct account , in regard i did not know it would be expected from me , nor indeed that it would affect the prisoner at the bar. l. h. stew. pray , my lord , give my lords the peers as succinct and particular an account as you can . l. gray , my lord , soon after the late kings death , the duke of monmouth was at amsterdam with my lord argyle , where there was an account given of the design that was in hand , of an insurrection in scotland , and the preparations that had been made in order to it ; and at that time there came over to holland mr. crag , that came as i was inform'd from major vvildman , and his errand was to promote and recommend a reconciliation between the duke of monmouth , and my lord argyle , who till that time had acted in separate interests ; and crag then gave an account that means and money were prepared ; he had no particular message to the duke , because he did not know of meeting him there at that time : the duke of monmouth upon this encouragement , did send captain matthews into england , with a message to major vvildman , wherein he did desire him that he would procure a meeting with my lord macclesfield , my lord brandon , my lord delamere , and i think mr. charleton , and acquaint them that he had received a full account of my lord argyle's affairs , and the preparations that had been made for it , and accordingly he had ordered his own affairs to join with him ; he likewise sent crag with a message to the same purpose to other friends in london , and he dispatch'd away one battescomb into the vvest , to prepare things there . when crag returned back again to the duke , he gave him an account that major vvildman had procured a meeting with those lords and gentlemen , that i mentioned before , who were all of opinion , that the duke of monmouth should go for scotland , for they thought that his coming there , would be the best service he could do the interest at present , and they should know the strength of the enemy here , by their sending forces to suppess the rebellion there . there was likewise a particular message from major vvildman to the duke of monmouth , that he desired he would bring over with him a broad seal to seal commissions with , and to take upon him the title of king ; the other particular branches of the message , i do not so well remember , but only this , he was particularly asked , whether the prisoner at the bar was there , and he said he was , — mr. att. gen. pray , my lord gray , will you give an account what you know of jones's coming over , and what errand he was sent of . lord gray , jones came some time after crag returned , and he gave an account of other things conformable to what crag had said , and was sent back again to england by the duke of monmouth to give an account of his being ready to sail ; he gave him also a letter , the contents whereof i did not see , i had some short account of it , but whether it were written to any particular person , i cannot tell ; the sum of his message was , that he would land by that time he could get thither . mr. att. gen. my lord gray , you had frequent discourse with the duke of monmouth , and so i suppose can give an account who he kept correspondence with , and upon whose assistance he relyed . lord gray , i suppose few people will believe we were so weary of our lives , as to come and throw them away with threescore , or a very few more men , ( for it was but a very small number we began with ) except we had had expectation of good assistance , this i am sure of , by all my discourses with the duke of monmouth , he did depend very much upon cheshire , and was resolved to have landed and begun there ; but afterwards he considered of it , and thought better to send some sort of excuse for not landing in cheshire ; that the persons that were to be applyed to there , being men of great quality and interest in their countrey , and able to manage it without his assistance ; but in the vvest , the friends he relyed on , were not of that considerable quality , and therefore he chose to land there . mr. att. gen. what lords did he name , that he depended upon ? lord gray , i did name them ; my lord macclesfield , my lord brandon , and my lord delamere ; but i observed when the duke of monmouth spoke of his friends in cheshire , he did name my lord macclesfield , and my lord brandon as persons . e. of nottingham . my lord steward , i humbly pray this witness may be asked , to whom that letter was written , that he saith the late duke of monmouth sent by jones ? lord h stew. you hear my lord's question , who did monmouth send that letter by jones to ? lord gray . my lord , i never saw the letter , nor do i know any directions there were upon it ; i always looked upon it as a paper of instructions given to him about the time when , and the name of the place where the duke was to land . mr. att. gen. we will give an account of that by jones by and by , my lord. now swear nathaniel vvade , which was done . lord h. stew. well , what do you ask this witness ? mr. att. gen. wade , that which i call you for , is this , to give an account what you know of any design of landing in cheshire , or elsewhere , and of jones's coming over , and what errand he was sent upon ? mr. wade , my ld. i shall give an account as far as i know ; after the death of the late king , captain matthews came to amsterdam and gave an account there , that the duke of monmouth intended to be there shortly to meet and consult with my lord argyle , who , we understood , then was preparing for an expedition into scotland ; thereupon i was sent into freezland to desire my lord argyle to come to amsterdam , which he did ; and there the duke of monmouth did consult with him , and they did agree together , that at the same time that my lord argyle made an insurrection in scotland , the duke of monmouth should invade england , and to that end , that he should send to those friends he had in england to be ready to assist him when he came there ; and in order to it , he did send captain matthews , who amongst other things , was to go to the dukes friends in cheshire , and amongst them , my lord delamere was named to be one , and the business was to desire them to be ready to assist him when he should land ; accordingly captain matthews went ; but a little after his going away , i think one crag came over , and he came from major wildman , and his business was to endeavour a good understanding between the duke of monmouth , and my lord argyle , who were then at some difference ; and to endeavour to make them act jointly by united councils ; a little after he was sent back again into england to major wildman , to desire him to assist them with some money ; he went back again , and returned , but brought no money ; thereupon he was sent again , by the duke of monmouth , because the first time he was not sent by him ; the sum demanded was six thousand pounds , or four thousand pounds , and at last he sent for a thousand pound ; crag returned with this answer , that they could not assist them with money , for they did not know to what end they should have money , but to buy arms , and for that the people were well provided enough already , and there was no need of money for that purpose . the duke of monmouth a while after sent mr. crag , and pawned all the jewels he had , to raise money , and fitted out three ships for this service , laden with ammunition , and because he had promised my lord argyle to make a diversion , in england , while he invaded scotland , he resolved to go with that provision he had , and desired by mr. crag , that since those lords and gentlemen that were to assist them , had sent no money , as was desired of them , and expected from them , they should now trouble themselves with no further needless consultations ; but should repair each man into his own countrey , where their interest was greatest , to be ready when he should come ; and in order to this , the duke of monmouth did set sail from holland , and came to lyme , and landed there ; and did afterwards order his march , so that he might most conveniently meet with his cheshire friends , that is , towards gloucester , and so to get gloucester bridg , that thereby gaining the command of the river of severn , those of cheshire , if they did , as was expected , make an insurrection at the same time , they might easily join together . in pursuance of this design we came to keinsham bridg , and there a party of the kings horse set upon us , and we took some prisoners , and thereupon thought it advisable not to let the kings army join together , but to go back and engage those that were already come together , and that was the reason we did not go over the bridg. mr. att. gen. do you know any thing of jones's coming into holland , and for what ? mr. wade , my lord , i had forgot that ; a little before crags going last away , jones came over , and his business was to know why we staid so long , for the duke of monmouth's friends in england had expected him long before , and he was dispatch'd away quickly to acquaint them the duke was coming . mr. att. gen. who was he sent to , to acquaint with his coming ? vvade , to major wildman , he was directed to major wildman . mr. att. gen. who else were to be acquainted with it ? wade , among the rest , my lord delamere , my lord macclesfield and my lord brandon were to be acquainted that he was coming , and expected that they should raise what forces they could to assist him . lord h. stew. will my lord delamere ask him any questions ? lord delamere , no my lord , i never saw his face before , tat i know of . lord h. stew. who do you go to next , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. next we call richard goodenough ; swear him , which was done . that which i would know of you , mr. goodenough is , whether jones was sent of my message , and about what ? goodenough , my lord , i was beyond sea with the duke of monmouth , and mr. jones was sent ( among other persons ) to my lord delamere to give him notice that he should be ready against the time that the duke should land , and take care to secure himself , that he might not be seized here in town , for we were apprehensive such a thing would be attempted . mr. att. gen. what directions were given him , what lords to go to ? goodenough , my lord , we were informed in holland , that my lord delamere was one of those lords that had promised to draw his sword in his behalf . mr. att. gen. had you any discourse with the duke of monmouth about it at any time ? goodenough , yes , i have discoursed with the duke of monmouth several times . lord h. steward . ay , what did he say to you about it ? goodenough , my lord , he said ( among other things ) that he hoped my lord delamere would not break his promise with him ? lord h. stew. my lord delamere , will you ask him any questions ? lord delamere , no , my lord , i never saw his face before , that i know of , i will assure you . lord h. stew. that is pretty strange , so famous an under-sheriff of london and middlesex , as he was . mr. att. gen. then swear jones , which was done : pray will you give an account what message you received from the duke of monmouth upon your going over into holland , and to whom you were to deliver it , and what became of it ? jones , my lord , i went to holland about the latter end of april last ; my going , as i have acquainted his majesty and the council , was not only about this affair , for i had other business that called me thither , which i shall not now take up your time , or trouble you with repeating of ; but having some knowledg from mr. disney , that there were some intentions of doing something , tho it was communicated to me but very darkly , and therefore that little i did know , made me the willinger to go for holland so soon as i did ; but before i went , i had a mind to understand something more of the design , and therefore the night before i went , i came to mr. disney , and acquainted him with my intended journey ; mr. disney did perswade me against it , thinking that i had gone upon this account , but i told him the occasion , which he partly knew , why i went ; but withal i told him , i did intend to see the duke of monmouth , and if he had any message that he would have delivered to him , i would deliver it very safely ; he told me all the message i should deliver to the duke of monmouth , if i saw him , was to desire him to keep to the last conclusion which he would find in a letter that had been sent to him , and that if he had not yet received the letter , it was to come by the crop-hair'd merchant , or the crop-ear'd merchant , i cannot say which , but i think it was the crop-hair'd ; i asked him what that message was , lest the letter should miscarry , for i told him , if i should go to the duke of monmouth , and refer him to a letter wherein a message was to be brought him , which he was to keep to , and that letter should miscarry , i should in effect bring no message at all to him ; my lord , thereupon he told me , that i should acquaint the duke of monmouth that his friends in england would not by any means have him come for england , but that he should continue where he was , or if he thought good to go for scotland , they approved of it ; this is the sum of what he said to me , as near as i can remember . when i came to amsterdam , there was one mr 〈◊〉 that was kill'd at philips norton , went with me to the duke of monmouth's , and when i came to him , i acquainted him , as mr. disney appointed me to do , that there was such a letter sent by such a person , and that such a message was included in it ; my lord , he was in a great passion , i know not how to express it , and seemed to be very much troubled , and did reflect very much upon major wildman , and said , that was wildman's work , and he said , ( as i think that was the word he used ) wildman was a villain , or to that purpose ; but withal he said it was too late to send such a message now , and that he was resolved to come for england ; and he would make vvildman hang with him , or fight for it , with him ; that wildman did think by tying his own purse , he should tye his hand , but he should find it should not be so , and some other words of the like nature , he used ; but this is the substance of what he said ; he gave some account what preparations had been made , he said money was very short , and he had been fain to pawn all he had to raise what money was raised , upon his own charge . he asked me if i did think to return to england shortly ; i told him if he had any service to command me for england , i had some little business to do at rotterdam , which i would dispatch , and then i would perform his commands ; he told me , he would be glad i did return as soon as i could for england , and that this should be the message i should carry to wildman in answer to the message he had sent him , that he would come for england , and he should either fight with him , or hang with him , and that was all he had to say to him . i was coming away from him , but he stopped me , and told me he would not have me go out of town till he had spoke with me again ; this was upon the sunday , accordingly i did go in the evening to him , and when i came , he told me , he would have me stay till tuesday morning , for he was going out of town , and intended to be back again at that time , but if not , i should receive from my lord gray what he had to say to me . he did not come upon the tuesday , but my lord gray did come , and i think to the best of my remembrance mr. crag was with me ; he told me all he had to say was , that the duke intended to be in england within nine days , and that upon the thursday seven-night after i came away , the duke would be in england ; and he bid me to remember to tell brand that when he heard the duke was landed , he should acquaint sir robert payton with it , but not till he was landed ; for tho they did think that he would join with them when the thing was begun , yet they ought to be careful who it was communicated to , for fear it should be discovered and disappointed ; this was all that i had in command from my lord gray . i came to rotterdam , and dispatch'd my business there , and would have come away , but it happened there were no ships coming for england , nor would there be any in a fortnights time ; thereupon i returned to amsterdam ; when i came back , i went to see the duke to give him an account how it happened that i was not gone for england ; the duke told me he was glad i was not gone ; for now he had a further message for me to carry , and he would have me stay or days in town for it ; i staid three days , and came again to him , but he told me he was not ready for me yet ; then i stayed two or three days longer till the st of may to the best of my remembrance ; it was upon a thursday that he gave me the message that i was to bring into england ; i came to him in the morning , and he told me i should come to him upon the evening of that day , and when i came , there was a paper lay before him on the table , and he took the paper and sealed it up , i cannot say he wrote all that was in that paper , but the paper that lay before him was not finished when i came in , and that he did not write while i was there , i am sure ; but he took it up and sealed it before me , and when he had sealed the paper , he told me , i must assoon as i came for london , see for captain matthews , sir thomas armstrong's son in law , who lodged at mr. blake's in covent-garden , and desire him to acquaint my lord macclesfield , my lord brandon , and my lord delamere with his design of coming for england , and that he was resolved to set out upon the saturday morning after i came away , which was upon the friday ; he told me captain matthews was to send one post to that place that was named in the note to receive intelligence of his landing , and that should be brought to his friends here immediately ( he designed should be hours before the court had notice of it in town ) , and those lords were to be in readiness , that as soon as they knew he was landed , they might repair to their several posts to assist him . i told him that i would deliver what message he gave me , and asked him , what i was to do with the paper he put into my hands ; thereupon , as near as i remember , he used these expressions to me , i do by you , as princes do by their admirals , when they send them out upon any considerable expedition , which requires secrecy in the management of it , they have their commission delivered to them sealed up , which they are not to break open till they are at sea. so here i deliver you your instructions sealed up , which you are not to open till you are at sea ; and when you have opened them , and read what is contained in them , i would have you tear the paper , and throw it into the sea , or otherwise dispose of it , lest you be surprized and searched at your landing , and my papers found about you . my lord , i asked him , because i would be as punctual in my message as i could , what those lords were to do , when they came out of town , whether they should come directly to him or no ; he told me no , not that , but they should go into the countrey , and secure their interest for him there . i asked him then , if captain matthews be out of the way , and i be disappointed of meeting with him , shall i deliver this message to the lords my self ; he told me no , by no means , for those lords were persons of quality , and that that was not a thing to be done by me ; what shall i then do , my lord , said i , if captain matthews be out of the way ? you need not question that , saith he , but if you meet not with matthews , speak to wildman . my lord , with these instructions ( and this as near as i can remember is the sum of all he said to me ) i came away , and came to sea ; when i was out at sea , i broke open the letter that i had given me by the duke , and i will tell you as near as i can , what were the contents of it ; there was written in it to this effect : taunton in somersetshire is the place to which all are to resort ; the persons to be acquainted with the time of landing , are the lord macclesfield , the lord brandon , and the lord delamere ; the place to send the coach to , is to taunton to mr. savages house at the red lyon ; the place where the post was appointed to return , was captain matthews lodging , at mr. blake 's , and he was to receive the message , or if he did not , he was to appoint one that should receive it ; or if it were to return to any other place , that was left to him to do as he thought fit . and this was all , as near as i can remember ; when i had seen this , i came to london , and being very weary and tired , when i came home , i went to bed mr. att. gen. pray tell the court as near as you can , what day it was you came ? jones . i came out of holland the d of may , i came home the th , and looking upon my almanack , i find that it was the wednesday fortnight before the duke landed , that i came ; when i was come home , i sent for mr. disney , and he came to me immediately ; i told him i had seen the duke , and desired that he would help me to the speech of captain matthews ; he told me he was out of town too ; then i desired to speak with major wildman , he told me he was gone out of town too ; then i told him i must deliver my message to him , and i told him this message as i have told your lordships before , and therefore left it to him to convey it to the knowledg of those lords that were concerned ; he did seem to be unwilling , and told me he did not know how to communicate it to those lords , and asked me why i would not deliver the message my self ; i told him i did ask the duke of monmouth that very question , whether i might , and he had forbid me , and ordered me to deliver it either to captan matthews , or to major wildman ; and since they were absent , i knew not any to communicate it to , but only to him , in order to their having notice of it . he told me he would do what he could . mr. att. gen. pray who were present when you had this discourse with disney ? jones , there was none present but himself then , for it was the first time that i spoke with him after i came from holland ; i told him there was a post to go to receive intelligence , which should bring notice of his landing , hours before it could be known at whitehall , and therefore it were fit they should be in a readiness ; he did scruple at it , and said he did not know where to get any one that could convey the message to them , but he would do what he could ; and concluded to meet at night in smithfield , and he did so , and there were two persons with him , mr. crag , and mr. lisle , and another , i think his name was brand , and he took me and brand aside , and did ask me where was the place that the post was to go ; i told him where , and then he did discourse of the dukes coming over , but i mentioned not any thing of the lords , but only to disney ; and after an hours talk or thereabouts , we parted . i saw mr. disney once afterwards , but what he did with the message i cannot tell , he gave me no account of it ; i did indeed before i went out of town see him at the half-moon tavern in 〈◊〉 i went out of town , and met the duke of monmouth at lyme where he landed , and when i came to him , i told him what i had done with my message , and how it happened that i could not deliver it to the persons that he had ordered ; the duke told me he was satisfied that i had done what i could , but seemed to be troubled that matthews was out of town . and this is the sum of what passed in my knowledg as near as i can remember . mr. att. gen. had you no discourse with disney what he had done with the message , when you met at smithfield ? jones , no , because those men were strangers to me , and i had never seen them before . mr. att. gen. but afterwards had you no discourse with brand nor lisle about it . jones , no not at all : brand i never spoke but once with , and lisle would not own that he was the man that was there . lord h. stew. have you any more questions to ask him , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. no , my lord. lord h. stew. my lord delamere , will your lordship ask him any questions ? lord delamere , no , my lord , i never saw his face before this time , that i know of , in my life . lord h. stew. then who do you call next , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. the next witness that we call , my lord , is story , who was sworn . lord h. stew. well , what do you ask him ? mr. att. gen. mr. story , pray will you give an account what notice you had of jones's message , and what was done upon it , and what discourse you had with any body concerning my lord delamere , the prisoner at the bar , and with whom ? story , my lord , i had notice of it by one that lived at bishopsgate , who told me the th of may last , that mr. jones was returned home from holland upon a message from the duke of monmouth , and that he had agreed to go to taunton , and there he expected mr. dare or mr. williams to bring an account that the duke was landed ; and he said that mr. jones's message was delivered to disney in the absence of captain matthews , who was out of town ; that after disney had received the message from jones , he went and had some discourse with my lord delamere , and that that night my lord delamere went out of town with two friends , and went a by-way through enfield chase , towards hatfield . mr. att. gen. pray when was it you went out of town , story ? story , the th of may. mr. att. gen. who went out of town with you ? story , no body , but i overtook mr. brand that evening . lord h. stew. pray repeat what it was he acquainted you with ? story , he told me that the day before , jones was returned home with a message from holland , which message was to be delivered to captain matthews , but in his absence disney received it , and that evening after he had discoursed with my lord delamere , my lord that night went out of town , and two friends of mine he said went with him , and did convey him away by a by-way through enfield chase towards hatfield . lord h. stew. have you any more questions to ask him , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. pray , sir , had you any discourse with the late duke of monmouth at shepton mallet ? and about what ? lord h. stew. by the way , friend , where is that brand that you speak of ? story , he is kill'd ; i did not see him dye , but he is said to be kill'd at keinsham bridg. mr. att. gen. pray what discourse had you with the late duke of monmouth about the prisoner at the bar ? story , i heard the late duke of monmouth say at shepton mallet , that his great dependance was upon my lord delamere and his friends in cheshire , but he was afraid they had failed him , or betray'd him , or some such word he used , and he said he could have been supply'd otherwise , but that he had a dependance upon them . mr. att. gen. pray what office had you under the duke of monmouth ? story , i was commissary general . mr. att. gen. well , we have done with you . l d. h. st. will you ask him any questions , my lord delamere ? ld. del. if your grace please i have a question to ask him . l d. h. st. ay , with all my heart ; what question you will , my lord. ld. del. my lord , i desire to know whether he knows one saxon. st. what saxon does your l shp . mean , one that was in the army ? lord delamere , yes , one thomas saxon. story , yes , my lord , i knew him a prisoner in dorchester prison , where i was a prisoner my self . ld. h. st. has your lordship nothing more to ask him but that ? lord. delamere , no , my lord. mr. att. gen. now , my lord , we call some persons to prove , that that very night when jones came to town , my lord delamere the prisoner at the bar goes out of town without any servant , changes his name , and goes a by-way : swear vaux and edlin ? vaux was sworn . lord h. stew. well , what says this man ? mr. att. gen. pray give my lords an account whether you went out of town with my lord delamere , and when ? vaux , my lord , perhaps i may not remember the very words that i gave my evidence in before , but i will repeat the substance . mr. att. gen. it is not so long ago , but you may easily recollect your self ; pray what day was it that my l. delamere sent for you ? vaux , the th day of may , and i went out of town the th . mr. att. gen. you are upon your oath , and you must remember you are sworn to tell the truth , the whole truth , and nothing but the truth . vaux , sir i shall take care to do it as far as i can remember . mr. att. gen. whither was it that he sent for you ? vaux , to the rummer tavern in queenstreet , and the next day i went out of town with him . mr. att. gen. what day of the month did you go out of town ? vaux , it was the th day of may. mr. att. gen. what time of the night was it you went out of london ? vaux , it was about or of the clock . mr. att. gen. what name did my lord delamere then go by ? vaux , he went by the name of brown. mr. att. gen. my lord , i would acquaint your grace that this is an unwilling witness , and we are forc'd to pump all out of him by questions ? vaux , i do tell you the truth of all that i know . mr. att. gen. how far did you ride that night ? vaux , to hoddesden . mr. att. gen. what time did you get thither ? vaux , about of the clock . mr. att. gen. whither did you go then ? va. we went to hitchen , and i return'd back again the next day . mr. att. gen. whither was my lord delamere going then ? vaux . to see his son that was sick in the countrey . lord h. stew. what he told you so , did he ? vaux , yes , my lord. mr. att. gen. what other company went with you ? vaux , two gentlemen , the one i knew , th' other i did not . mr. att. gen. what was the name of him you did know ? vaux , it was edlin . mr. att. gen. pray was that the direct road to cheshire that you went ? vaux , we made it our way . mr. att. gen. you made it your way ; but i ask you whether it be the best way ? vaux , it is the freest rode from dust . mr. att. gen. but i ask you a plain question , upon your oath is it the best way into cheshire ? vaux , truly , my lord , i do not know that . lord h. stew. pray who gave you directions to call my lord delamere by the name of brown ? vaux , himself , my lord. l. h. stew. was that the first time my lord went by that name , as you know of ? vaux , yes , my lord , i never heard that he was called by that name till that time . l. del. i was called by the name of brown at that time , and i will give your grace an account by and by of the reason of it . l. h. stew. has your lordship any question to ask him ? l. del. no , my lord. l. h. stew. then go on to the next . mr. att. gen. our next witness is edlin , pray swear him which was done . pray will you give my lords and the court an account whither you went with my lord delamere out of town , and when ? edlin , the th of may last , i was at the custom-house , and there came mr. vaux , the gentleman that was here last , who told me he was going out of town as far as hitchen , and asked me to go along with him ; he said he was to go that evening ; i asked him what time he intended to return ? he told me he was resolved to return the next day . i told him , then i would go along with him , and we appointed the place of meeting to be at the bell-inn in coleman-street ; when i came there , he said there was a friend that was going along with him , one mr. brown , we went as far as hoddesden that night . mr. att. gen. pray mr. edlin , will you look upon that gentleman that stands at the bar ; is that he that went by the name of brown ? edlin , yes , my lord , that is he . mr. att. gen. well then , what time did you set out ? edlin , it was very near nine of the clock . mr. att. gen. pray when was it that vaux met you at the custom-house ? edlin , it was about of the clock in the morning . l. h. stew. pray did you hear or know upon the road , whither he was going ? edlin , my lord , i did never see my lord delamere before in my life . l. h. stew. but did not he tell you as he went along , whither he was going ? ed. he said he was going for cheshire to see a sick child . mr. att. gen. you say , sir , that you went first for hoddesden ? ed. we did so , my lord. mr. att. gen. pray sir , how long were you riding that , from the bell in coleman-street to hoddesden ? ed. it was hours i believe , or about hours and a half . mr. att. gen. then you rid hard out of town ? ed. my lord , it was towards of the clock when we got on horse-back , and it was about or a little more , when we came to hoddesden . l. h. stew. well , mr attorney , is that all you have to ask him ? mr. att. gen. yes , my lord. l. h. stew. will you ask him any questions , my lord delamere ? lord delamere , no , my lord. mr. att. gen. then , my lord , to confirm this evidence , and to explain it , i shall call you a couple of witnesses to prove that this gentleman went by the name of brown in the cant of those that were engaged in this business , that the name was known as his name by all the party , and called so constantly in their letters and messages ; swear tracey , paunceford , and thomas babington . which was done lord h. stew. which will you begin with first ? mr. att. gen. we begin with paunceford ; pray will you give his grace and these lords an account what discourse you heard at disneys concerning the prisoner at the bar , and what name he was usually called by , in your meetings ? paunce . my lord , i shall give as just an account as i can ; i was acquainted with mr. disney , and the th of june i was at his house — lord h. stew. what june do you mean ? paunce . last june , my lord , and there were three more besides , one joshua lock , and a country gentleman that i have understood since to be one hooper , and there was one halsey ; and being there , lock staid for some declarations . lord h. stew. what declarations were those you speak of ? paunce . the declarations of the late duke of monmouth . lord h. stew. were they printed at that time ? paunce . they were not ready at of the clock in the afternoon ; but about of the clock they were finished , and three were printed off , and were delivered to joshua lock , and when he had received them at that time , there was a discourse of having them sent into cheshire to one mr. brown ; after we had received them , we came over the water together , and we landed at salisbury stairs , and lock was very earnest for going out of town that night , with those three declarations , which , as he said , were to be carried to one mr. brown : this was at of the clock ; and so we parted . lord h. stew. pray into what countrey was he to carry them ? paunce . a little way out of town , he said . lord h. stew. just now you said they were to go to cheshire ? paunce . my lord , the discourse at disney's house was , that they were to be sent into cheshire , but when we came over the water , lock said he was to go a little out of town to one mr. brown. mr. att. gen. pray who was that mr. brown as they meant , as you apprehended ? paunce . i understood mr. brown to be my lord delamere by some discourse . lord h. stew. whose discourse did you understand it by ? paunce . the first time , my lord , that i heard of my lord delamere's going by the name of brown , was upon a discourse with one edlin . lord h. stew. prithee tell us what that discourse thou hadst with edlin , was . paunce . mr. edlin about the latter end of may last , went out of town , as i heard , and when he came back again , i asked him whither he went ? he said he was invited by a friend to go with him out of town , and my lord delamere went along with them , and went by the name of brown. mr. att. gen. what discourse had you with disney , or any body else about my lord delamere's going by the name of brown ? paunce . mr. disney did use to mention my lord delamere by the name of brown. mr. att. gen. pray were you at any meeting with any body , and whom , at any tavern , and what tavern where any such discourse was had ? paunce . my lord , i was at a meeting at the castle tavern with mr. vermuyden , and my brother babington , and one manning , but there was no mention then of any brown that i remember , nor of my lord delamere , but only there was something in relation to the landing of the duke of monmouth ; the question was asked where he was to land , and mr. vermuyden made answer he did not know . lord h. st. will your lordship please to ask this witness any questions , my lord ? lord delamere , pray , sir , did you ever know any body else that went by the name of brown besides me ? paunce . may i answer this question , my lord ? lord h. stew. answer it , yes you must , you are sworn to tell the truth , and the whole truth , man. paunce . my lord , there was a discourse of mr. vermuyden's going by the name of brown. lord h. stew. will you ask him any more questions , my lord ? lord delam . no , my lord. lord h. stew. then go on , mr. attorney . mr. att. gen. pray mr. babington , do you tell my lords what you know of my lord delamere's going by the name of brown ? babing . my lord , i shall give an account ; when i first knew any thing of the transactions , i was with my brother paunceford , mr. vermuyden , and one chadwick that went into the west , and there was a discourse of two gentlemen that went by names i did not know ; brown was one , and i was desirous to know who was meant by it ; i was at that time but newly acquainted with the concerns of these people ; and so i found they were fearful to entrust me ; but afterwards i was at the castle tavern where my brother , and my uncle vermuyden was , and in discourse of mr. brown , some body happened to name my lord delamere's name , but he was presently taken up , you mean mr. brown , ay , saith he , i do . l. h. st. about what time was this , pray you ? bab. about the middle or latter end of may last . mr. att. gen. were you at disney's when the declarations were printed there ? bab. mr. attorney , i will give an account of that afterwards , but i have something else to say first ; after this , i was diligent to know of my uncle vermuyden and my brother , who this mr. brown was ; my uncle told me it was my lord delamere , and desired me whenever i discoursed of him , to call him by that name , and i have very good reason to believe mr. vermuyden knew of the matter , because he was acquainted with a great many of that sort of people , and declared he had collected and knew of moneys that were gathered for that purpose ; and he had a good account of monmouth's landing , and of the force he had in the west , and how long it was presumed that he could maintain that force without assistance from any body else , and so i presume he was very well acquainted with the whole transaction : afterwards i happened to be at disney's over the water , there was my brother paunceford , mr. halsey , and my self . mr. att. gen. tell what passed there at that time . bab. disney shew'd me a declaration that was not perfected quite , but after that we fell into a discourse about mr. brown , and afterwards my lord delamere's name was named by some body , that some of the declarations were to be sent to him , and i remember mr. disney said he was afraid my lord delamere was not capable of doing that service that was expected from him in cheshire for want of some of those declaratious , which would be mighty useful to him to inform the people , they being monmouth's declarations . lord h. stew. had lock any of those declarations away for that mr. brown you speak of ? bab. i never knew lock my lord. mr. att. gen. what number of declarations did disney print ? bab. disney told us he hoped in hours to have printed , a good number of them were to be sent to my lord delamere , and several of them were dispersed . lord h. st. have you any more questions to ask him , mr. attorney ? mr. att. gen. no , my lord. lord h. steward , will you ask him any questions , my lord delamere ? lord delamere , no my lord. mr. att. gen. then may it please your grace , the next witness we shall bring , shall be to prove that my lord delamere took frequent journies backward and forward in a very little commpass of time , and the same witness will likewise tell you what discourse he had with my lord during the very time of monmouths rebellion , to stir up the people to joyn with him . swear hope , which was done pray tell my lords what discourse you had with my lord delamere , and when ? hope , upon the sunday before the coronation , my lord delamere came down post to my house , towards his own house in cheshire — lord h. steward , prethee where is thy house , for these noble lords do not know thee , perhaps , so well as i do , therefore tell us where it is ? hope , my lord , my house is at the three tunns in coventry . lord h. steward , well , go on , tell what thou knowest . hope — some time after that he came down post again , and a little after he went up again post , and he told me he went down another way ; and after that , the st of june , he came down post again , this was upon a sunday , the sunday sennight after the duke of monmouth landed . mr. att. gen. had he any servant with him at that time ? hope , yes he had . lord h. steward , had he a servant with him every time he came down post ? hope , no , he came over , i remember , without any servant , only with a post boy . lord h. steward , well , and what discourse had you with him at that , or any other time ? hope , my lord , that sunday the st of june , my house was very full of people to enquire news , it being in the time of the rebellion , every one was desirous to know how things went ; and there was one ingram in the house , that came to me , and asked what news from london , for they say , saith he , that the duke of albemarle is killed , and his hearse brought to westminster abby ; thereupon i knowing my lord delamere was come from london , i went into the room to my lord , and desired to know of his lordship what was the news in london ; he told me he was little at court , and therefore could not tell much news ; i then asked him what he heard concerning the duke of albemarle ; said i , they say here , he is killed ; saith my lord , i am sorry for it , if it be so , but i fear it is too true ; but if he be killed , it is said he is killed by his own party ; i asked him how ? he told me a party of the duke of albemarle's men were commanded to fire at the duke of monmouth's men , but instead of shooting at them , they shot into the ground , upon which they were very severely handled by their officers , which so inraged them , that they fired upon them , and killed several of them , and amongst others , the duke of albemarle was killed ; and he told me the duke of monmouth had several field pieces , and arms sufficient for near men . mr. att. general . pray , did he shew you any places in any maps ? hope . there was in the room . adams's map of england , and my lord delamere shewed me which way monmouth went , and pointed out such and such towns that he was possessed of , and withal said , he did fear there would be many bloody noses before the business was at an end . mr. att. general . how many times do you think my lord did ride post to and fro ? hope . about five times i believe . l. h. steward . within what space of time ? hope . from the sunday sev'night before the coronation to the twenty first of june following . l. h. steward . have you done with him mr. attorney ? mr. att. general . yes , my lord. l. delamere . my lord high steward , with your grace's leave , may i ask this witness any questions ? l. h. steward . yes , my lord , what you please . l. delamere . 'pray , did i go down post four or five times , do you say in that space ? hope . my lord , i say you did go so often backward and forward . l. delamere . what time was that , you say , i came without any servant , only with a post-boy ? hope . i cannot tell . l. h. steward . will your lordship ask him any more questions ? l. delamere . no , my lord. mr. att. general . then , my lord , we desire thomas saxon may be sworn which was done 'pray , mr. saxon , will you give an account to his grace , and my lords , what you know of my lord delamere , the prisoner at the bar , concerning any insurrection or rebellion designed by him in cheshire , and when ? saxon. at the beginning of june last , i was sent for to mere , my lord delamere's house in cheshire , where when i came , i was conveyed into a lower room , where were my lord delamere , sir robert cotton , and mr. crew offleys , and they told me i was recommended to them by my lord brandon , who had said , i was an honest useful man , and they hoped i would prove so : for they had sent to the duke of monmouth , who was in holland , and received an answer by one jones , and assoon as they had an answer , my lord delamere came away post into the country under another name , and by being conveyed through moorfields , came down to raise ten thousand men for the duke of monmouth in cheshire , by the first of june ; but now they had considered of it , and found they could not raise them till midsummer , for they must have time to raise a sum of money , forty thousand pound in that country to maintain the men : they asked me , whether i would not undertake to carry a message to the duke of monmouth , i told them i would , and i had there given me eleven guineas , and five pounds in silver for my journy , and i did hire a horse afterwards , and did deliver my message to the duke of monmouth . l. h. steward . when was this do you say ? saxon. this was the beginning of june . l. h. steward . what day of june ? saxon. i cannot tell to a day , what day in june it was , for i did not set it down ; but i believe it was the third or fourth of june . l. h. steward . how came you to be recommended by my lord brandon to these gentlemen : were you acquainted with my lord brandon ? saxon. i was acquainted with him : the first time i was with him was at over , the next time was at my lord 's own house . mr. att. general . ay , 'pray tell my lord , how you came acquainted with my lord brandon ? saxon. upon the monday in easter week last , being at over , i was sent for by my lord brandon to drink a glass of ale , and smoke a pipe of tobacco with him , and when i came thither , my lord told me he had a desire to be acquainted with me ; so we drank a considerable while ; and he was attended at that time with one hollingshead , and one mr. lee ; and after we had drank pretty smartly , and after some discourse , lee and hollingshead went forth , being called out to speak with some body , about an estate or a tenement that they were concerned in : after they were gone out , my lord brandon began to discourse about the elections of parliament-men , how unfairly they had been carried , he said , he stood both for the town and county of lancaster , but had lost it by an unfair election ; for the other party had made seven-score freemen in one night in the town , and by that means had carried it against him ; which had exasperated the country so much , that they were resolved to make it an occasion of raising up the country in arms , under pretence of maintaining the christian english liberties ; and that they had a design to send for the duke of monmouth , and make him king ; and that they must make use of such men as me , that were men of interest in the country , to stir up the people to rise in arms ; and if i would come to gosworth , his house , upon the monday after , he would tell me more of that business : i went according to the time , and there he told me a great deal to the same purpose , and withal he shewed me a letter that he had written to the duke of monmouth ; which letter i afterwards saw at bridgwater . l. h. steward . have you any more questions to ask him ? mr. att. general . no , my lord ; but if my lord delamere please to ask him any questions , he may . l. delamere . i humbly pray he may repeat the evidence he hath given against me , for i have not heard what he has said . l. h. steward . turn toward my lord delamere , and repeat the evidence that you gave against him , so as he may hear you : which he did to the same effect , as before . l. h. steward . 'pray , from whom did you receive that money ? saxon. i received it from my lord delamere . l. h. steward . my lord delamere , will you ask him any questions ? l. delamere . yes , may it please your grace . l. h. steward . then the method you are to take , is this , you must propound your questions to me , and then i will propound them to the witness ? l. delamere . i desire to know , may it please your grace , when was the first time that he declared this that he has now sworn against me . l. h. steward . my lord desires to know of you , when it was that you first made known this against him ? l. delamere . and to whom my lord ? saxon. i suppose i told mr. storey of it first , my lord , at dorchester after i was taken prisoner for the rebellion . l. delamere . when did he tell it storey , my lord ? saxon. i think it was a fortnight after my acquaintance with him . l. h. steward . were you then in the same prison with storey ? saxon. yes i lay with him in the same bed. l. delamere . if your grace please , i would ask him another question ? l. h. steward . ay , what you will. l. delamere . i desire to know , when was the first time that he made oath of this , and upon what occasion it was ? l. h. steward . what say you to that ? saxon. the first time i made oath of it , was when i lay sick . l. delamere . will your grace please to ask him , where that was , and when ? saxon. it was before his majesty's counsellors , that were sent to take my examination in newgate . l. h. steward . 'prethee , i do not know when thou camest to newgate , it may be thou hast been there oftner than once ? saxon. i gave my first information immediately after i was brought to town , when i was removed from dorchester goal to newgate . l. delamere . my lord , i desire your grace would ask him what time he came up ? saxon. the beginning of the last term. l. delamere . then i desire to know , my lord , whether he did remain a prisoner in the country all the other time ? saxon. yes , i did so , from the tenth of july , till the time that i was brought up to newgate . l. delamere . my lord , i desire to know of him , whether i had ever imployed him about any of my concerns , that should give me an occasion of trusting him with such secrets ? l. h. steward . what business of importance had my lord delamere ever imploy'd you about before this time ? saxon. i was never imployed about any concerns of my lord delamere's before that time , neither was i ever in his company , but only then , and then as recommended by him to him ; for they said , they must make use of such as me to make their designs known to the country , for the accomplishing what they did intend . l. delamere . recommended by him , who does he mean ? saxon. by my lord brandon . l. delamere . if your grace please , i desire to know what the business was that he was to do ? saxon. i was to inform the country concerning the time of the rising , my acquaintance abounded that way , and by their discourse they had got men in every place to acquaint the country when they should rise . l. h. steward . were you acquainted with any great number ? saxon. my lord , i was a publick tradesman in middlewich , and much acquainted with the ordinary sort of people . l. delamere . my lord , he says he was sent for to my house , i desire to know who was the messenger that was sent for him ? saxon. my lord , i did ask him his name , but he would not tell it me ; he told me he was but tenant to my lord delamere , and had been imployed in such businesses for my lord delamere's father , sir george booth , he was a lame man in one arm , for he had his hand shot away at the siege of nantwich . l. delamere . it was tom long the carrier , i suppose , or some such fellow or other , that i sent for him ; my lord , i desire to know what time of day or night was it when he came to my house ? saxon. it was just when it began to be dark , the messenger came to me in the afternoon to fetch me thither , and i sent for a man's horse that lived near me , and when it was brought me , he asked me what made me go so late , i told him i had occasion to go late , and i should return late , and the man stayd at my house for his horse till it was late ; but i not coming home , he left order for his horse to be brought to him . l. delamere . next my lord , i desire to know when he came to my house , whether he did alight from his horse at the stables that belong to the house or no ? saxon. i did alight just at the old buildings , and the man's horse that came with me and mine were taken into the stables . l. delamere . 'pray , my lord , ask him who took his horse from him ? saxon. the man that came with me , and he went into the house and brought out a candle . l. delamere . my lord , i would ask him whether the door he was let in at was that which was nearest to the stable , or which door ? l. h. steward . do you know what door of the house you were let in at ? l. delamere . my lord , i ask him whether it were the next door to the stable ? saxon. my lord , i cannot very well give an account of that , for i was never at the house before ? l. delamere . 'pray , my lord , let him recollect himself , whether it were the door next the stable or not . l. h. steward . ay , with all my heart , if he can . saxon. i did not see any other door but that i came in at , and therefore i cannot tell which door it was . l. delamere . these questions , my lord , i take to be proper for me to ask , and i believe i shall make it appear so to your grace to be so by and by . l h. steward . good my lord , take your full liberty , and ask what questions you please ; for i know my lords here will be all very well pleased that you have all scope allowed you that can be . l. delamere . i humbly thank your grace , i desire to know of him , who let him into the house ? saxon. the man that came with me went with me just to the door , and let me in within the door , and i saw no other man but that man , till i came into the room where my lord and those two gentlemen were . l. delamere . was there no body else but we there ? saxon. no , you were so wise ; you would let no body be by . l. delamere . my lord , i shall trouble this witness no farther at present . l. h. steward . then mr. attorney general , will you proceed ? mr. att. general . my lord , we shall give no more evidence at present , but shall rest it here till we see what defence this noble lord will make for himself . l. h. steward . then , my lord delamere , your time is now come to make your defence , you have heard what has been evidenced against you , and my lords now expect to hear what you have to say for your self ? l. delamere . may it please your grace , a great part of the day is spent , and i would beg the favour of your grace , that i may have the favour till to morrow morning to review the notes i have taken , and then i shall make my defence . l. h. steward . my lord delamere , i had this very thing in my thoughts before i came hither this day , because i did foresee that this was likely to be a long cause , and the proceeding in it would take up much time : i have a little doubt , i must needs say in my own mind , whether it may be done by law ; i know very well , if this were a trial in full parliament , there have been precedents to warrant the adjournment till another day , though it be in the midst of a trial ; and in the middle of the evidence : but this court , i take to be of the same nature , though of a degree higher , with the other ordinary courts of judicature ; and whether it be not obliged and tied up to the same method of proceeding with those other courts , where all capital offences are tried , is a thing i am in some doubt about : in those courts it has not been usual to adjourn the court after evidence given ; nay , it has been sometimes a question , whether the judges in those courts , after the jury are gone from the barr , to consider of their verdict , could adjourn themselves : i say , the judges have sometimes made a doubt of it , though i know , the point is now settled , and the practice is , that they may , and do : but this is most certain , after the evidence given , the jury cannot be adjourned , but must proceed in their enquiry , and be kept together till they are agreed of their verdict ; this has caused some hesitancy in me , what the law may be in this case ; therefore i think it may be proper to consult with my lords the judges ; for i desire , the thing may be considered and settled . l. delamere . my lord , i humbly beg this favour of your grace , but to adjourn till to morrow . l. h. steward . with all my heart , my lord , if it may be done by law. l. delamere . i hope it may , my lord , and i beg that favour of your grace . l. h. steward . my lord , i should be very glad to comply with your lordship's desires , but truly i have considered of it , and do doubt whether i can by law do it : in full parliament it is clear it may be done , but upon this commission , after my lords the peers are once charged , and the evidence partly given , whether i can then adjourn them till another day , is with me a doubt : my lords , if your lordships please , before such time as my lord , the prisoner at the barr , enters upon his defence , i will with your leave propound the question to my lords the judges , and hear their opinion what the law is . l. delamere . my lord , i shall hardly be able to finish all i have to say in any convenient time this day . l. h. steward . but , my lord , if an adjournment cannot be by law , i cannot help it . l. delamere . there has a great deal been said , and it will require a great deal of time to give it an answer . l. h. steward . ay , but if it cannot be done as you would have it , we must be contented to stay the longer together ; for i would not abridge you of your defence ; therefore , my lords the judges , if you will please to go together and consider of it , and report your opinions , what the law is in this case , and we will stay till you come again ? then the judges withdrew into the exchequer chamber . e. nottingham . my lord high steward , i do humbly conceive , this is a matter that concerns the priviledge of the peers , and because it is a matter that doth so much concern the whole peerage ; i think , my lords here ought in some measure to concern them selves about it : therefore , my lord , i have a short motion to make to your grace , that , considering the consequence that the precedent of this case may draw with it , since , my lords the judges , are gone together to consult of this point , of which , i may say , they are not altogether the sole judges : we may also withdraw to consider of this matter with them , because it may not be proper for my lords in publick here , to offer what they may have to say , to incline my lords the judges in their judgments one way or other ? l. falconberge . my lord , i humbly offer this to your grace , upon the motion that this noble lord has made , that , with submission , i take this to be a thing that concerns the priviledge of peerage only , and i conceive the judges are not concerned to make any determination of that matter . i think therefore , my lords here ought to retire with them to consider of it . l. h. steward . my lords , i think , with submission to your lordships , that this is a question naturally proper for my lords the judges to give their opinions in , whether this court , as a court of judicature for the trial of this noble lord , may , in the midst of the tryal adjourn till another day : and the priviledge of the peerage cannot at all come in question here as i conceive . l. falconberg . my lord , that we conceive is a point of priviledge which certainly the inferior courts can have no power to determine . l. h. steward . if your lordships have a mind to withdraw you may . lords . ay , withdraw , withdraw . then the peers withdrew , and after half an hour the judges returned and took their places as before , and after about an hour the peers returned to their former places . l. h. steward , my lords the judges have you considered of the matter that has been proposed to you , and what is your opinion ? l. c. j. herbert . may it please your grace , the judges in obedience to your graces commands have withdrawn , and considered of what your grace proposed to them , and with humble submission they take the question to be this . not , whether your grace may adjourn your commission from one day to another , for that is clear you may , and has been practised , for that is the case of the earl of somerset and his wife . but the question is , whether , after the prisoner is upon his tryall , and the evidence for the king is given , the lords being , as we may term it , charged with the prisoner , the peers , tryers , may separate for a time , which is the consequent of an adjournment to another day . and my lord the judges presume to acquaint your grace , that this is a matter wholly new to them , and that they know not upon recollection of all that they can remember to have read , that either this matter was done , or questioned , whether it might or might not be done in any case . my lord , if the matter had been formerly done , or been brought into question in any case , where it had received a determination , and reported in any of our books of law , then it would have been our duty to contribute all our reading and experience for the satisfaction of this great court : but being , as it is , a new question , and a question that not only concerns the particular case of this noble lord at the barr , but is to be a president in all cases of the like nature for the future : all we can do is , to acquaint your grace and my noble lords , what the law is in the inferiour courts in cases of the like nature , and the reason of the law in those points , and then leave the jurisdiction of this court to its proper judgment . my lord , in the first place , where the tryal is by a jury , there the law is clear , the jury once charged can never be discharged till they have given their verdict , this is clear ; and the reason of that is , for fear of corruption , and tampering with the jury , an officer is sworn to keep the jury together without permitting them to separate or any one to converse with them ; for no man knows what may happen , for ( though the law requires honest men should be returned upon juryes , and without a known objection are presumed to be probi & legales homines , yet ) they are weak men , and perhaps may be wrought upon by undue applications . this , my lord , it is said , fails in this case , because the lords that are to try a peer , are persons of that great integrity and honour , that there is not the least presumption of their being to be prevailed upon in any such way ; and for that reason , because of the confidence which the law reposes ( and justly ) in persons of their quality , they are not sworn as common ordinary jurors are , but are charged and deliver their verdict upon honour . my lord , in the case of a tryal of a peer in parliament , as your grace was pleased to observe , and as is very well known by late experience , there the matter has been adjourned till another day , and for divers days ; the evidence being given in several parcells , and yet there the danger is as great ( if any were to be supposed ) of tampering : but whether the lords being judges in that case , and in this case , only in the nature of a jury makes the difference , though in both cases it is but like a verdict , for they give their opinions seriatim , whether the peer tryed be guilty or not guilty , that they submit to your graces consideration . upon the whole matter , my lord , whether their being judges in the one , and not in the other instance , alters the case , or whether the reason of law in inferiour courts , why the jury are not permitted to seperate till they have discharged themselves by their verdict , may have any influence upon this case , where that reason seems to fail , the prisoner being to be tryed by his peers , that are men of unquestionable unsuspected integrity and honour , we can't presume so far as to make any determination in a point that is both new to us , and of great consequence in it self ; but think it the properest way for us , having laid matters as we conceive them before your grace and my lords , to submit the jurisdiction of your own court to your own determination . l. h. steward . my lords ; i confess i would always be very tender of the priviledge of the peers , wherever i find them concerned ; but truly i apprehend , according to the best of my understanding , that this court is held before me . it is my warrant that convenes the prisoner to this barr. it is my summons that brings the peers together to try him , and so i take my self to be judge of the court. my lords 't is true may withdraw , and they may call the judges to them to assist them , which shews they have an extraordinary priviledge in some cases more before the high steward , than juries have in inferior courts in cases of common persons : for if it be in a common case , no jury can call either counsell or judges to assist them , in the absence of the prisoner , but if they will have advice , it must be asked in open court in the presence of the party accused . but now , my lords , if you have a mind to consult with me in private , as i now sit by virtue of this commission , which is his majesties warrant for me to hold this court , i could not withdraw with you , but you must ask all your questions of me , in the presence of the prisoner in open court ; whereas if it were in full parliament , as were the cases of my lord stafford , and my lord of pembroke , then he that were the high steward might go along with you when you withdrew , and consult with you , and give his opinion , which i cannot do in this case ; for i am bound to sit in court , while you withdraw to consider of the evidence , and am not to hear any thing said to me , but what is said in open court in the presence of the prisoner , except it be when you deliver your verdict . this i confess my lords has a great weight with me , and i know your lordships will be very tender of proceeding in such a case any way but according to law ; for though you are judges of your own priviledges , yet , with submission , you are not judges of the law of this court ; for that i take to be my province . why then , suppose my lords , i should take upon me to do as my lord delamere desires and adjourn the court , and suppose the law should fall out to be that indeed i ought not so to have done , would it be any advantage to this noble peer , if he should be acquitted by your lorships after such an adjournment , might not the evil consequence of that be , that he might be indicted for the same crime , and tryed again ? for all the proceedings after that would be void , and lyable to be reversed . and if on the other side your lordships should think fit , upon the evidence you have now heard , and what he shall say for himself , to convict him after i have adjourned as is desired , and i pass judgment upon him , as it will be a duty incumbent upon me to pass sentence on him , if you convict him ; what will become of the case then ; and how shall i be able to answer it , as having done my duty , when i pronounce a judgment notoriously erroneous and illegall ? for so it will be , if the law prove to be against my adjourning : this , my lords , is a matter of great moment , and worth the consideration . but in the other case of a trial in full parliament , the lord that sits where i do , is only as the chairman of the court rather than judge , he gives a vote in such proceedings ; and therefore my lord the prisoner did very well at the beginning to ask the question , whether i had any vote in his tryal , as a peer jointly with your lordships : if i sat in full parliament i should without all question give my vote as well as any other peer , but sitting here by immediate commission from the king pro hac vice , high steward ; i acquaint you as i did him , i have no authority to give any vote : my business is to see the law observed and fulfilled as judge . certainly , my lords , your lordships and i , and all mankind ought to be tender of committing any errors in cases of life and death , and i would be loath , i will assure you , to be recorded for giving an erroneous judgment in a case of blood , and as the first man that should bring in an illegal precedent , the consequence of which may extend i know not how far . m. att. general . will your grace give direction for my lord to proceed ? l. h. steward , yes , he must proceed i think . l. delamere . may it please your grace , and you my lords , it is an offence of a very high nature for which i am this day to answer before your lordships ; yet i thank god i am not afraid to speak in this place , because i am not only certain and very well assured of my own innocency , no such thought having as yet entred into my heart ; but i am also well assured of your lordships wisdom and justice , which cannot be imposed upon or surprized by insinuations and florid harangues , nor governed by any thing but the justice of the cause . my lords , i can with a great deal of comfort and satisfaction say , that these crimes wherewith i am charged are not only strangers to my thoughts , but also to what has been my constant principle and practice ; for i think that in matters relating to the church and the things enjoyned therein , few have conformed more in practice then i have done ; and yet i do confess , and am not ashamed to say it , that i have always had a tenderness for all those who could not keep pace with me , and charity for those that have outgone me , and differed from me , though never so far ; nay though of a different religion : for i always thought religion lay more in charity than persecution . while i had the honour to be a magistrate in my country , i did constantly duly and impartially execute the laws , and in every publick trust i was very faithful in the discharge of it , for i never voted nor spoke in any manner but as my conscience and judgment did dictate to me . i have always made the laws the measure of my loyalty , and have still been as zealous and careful to give the king his prerogative , as to preserve to the people their properties , and have endeavoured as far as in me lay to live peaceably with all men . this , my lords , was not only the dictates of my own inclinations , but it was the principle of my lather , and the lesson that he taught me : i say of my father , who was so greatly instrumental in snatching this nation out of its confusion , and restoring it to its ancient government , by setling his late majesty upon his throne , and consequently was the means of his present majesty that now is , his coming so peaceably to the crown : and this i may the more boldly speak , because i speak it by good authority ; because in the patent that created my father a peer , his late majesty is pleased to say , his rising was mainly instrumental in his restoration . i beg the favour of your grace and my lords , that i may read to you that clause in the preamble of the patent , which i have here ready to produce . which was read , and then , my lord proceeded as follows , viz. my lords , i suppose most of your lordships did know him , and whosoever did so , i dare say did believe him to be a good man : for my part i did not know a better copy to write after than his example , which i endeavoured always to imitate , and that i hope will go very far to vindicate me from the imputation of being inclined to any such crime as i stand charged with . my lords , it is now late , and therefore i shall cut off a great deal of what i had intended to say to your lordships , that i may not take up too much of your time , and come immediately to my defence , as to what i stand accused of . and first , my lords , i shall observe that here have been a great many witnesses produced , and a great deal of swearing , but little or nothing of legal evidence to affect me ; for there is but one man that saith any thing home and positively against me ( and whom i shall answer by and by ) all the rest are but hear-says , and such remote circumstances , as may be tacked to any evidence against any other person , but are urged against me for want of greater matters to charge me with ; and therefore i hope the producing and pressing of these things against me , is rather a strong argument that i am innocent , and that there have been mischievous and ill designs of some against me , than that i am guilty ; for if they had had other and greater matters , your lordships would have been sure to have heard of them . with your lordships leave , i cannot but observe to your lordships an excellent saying of that great man my lord of nottingham ( whose name will ever be remembred with honour in our english nation , ) when he sate in the same place that your grace does now , at the tryal of my lord cornwallis , which i will read to your lordships . speaking to the peers he has this passage . i know your lordships will weigh the fact , with all its circumstances , from which it is to receive its true and its proper doom . your lordships are too just to let pity make any abatement for the crime , and too wise to suffer rhetorick to make any improvement of it : this only will be necessary to be observed by all your lordships , that the fowler the crime is , the clearer and plainer ought the proof of it to be ; there is no other good reason can be given , why the law refuseth to allow the prisoner at the bar counsel in matter of fact , when life is concerned , but only this , because the evidence by which he is condemned ought to be so very evident and so plain , that all the council in the world should not be able to answer it . my lords , i think the evidence that has been given against me this day does not come up to this . and i hope your lordships will regard this saying of my lord nottinghams , as more worthy of your consideration , than the fine flourishings and insinuations of the kings council , which tend ( if it be not so designed ) rather to misguide your lordships , than to lead you to find out the truth . my lords , i shall now tell you the method that i shall proceed in , in making my defence ; and i begin with saxon , for he i perceive is the great goliah , whose evidence is to maintain this accusation , and if i cut him down , i suppose i shall be thought to have done my own business ; therefore to that i shall apply my self first , and do it if i can ; and i will in the first place examine several persons that are his neighbours and have conversed , with him what they have heard and know of him ; and first i desire richard hall may be called l. h. steward . my lord delamere , if you begin that way to call witnesses against saxon , it is fit he should be here to know what is said against him . l. delamere . ay , with all my heart , my lord. l. h. steward . then call saxon agen . then saxon and hall came both in l. delamere . pray mr. hall tell my lords here what you know of thomas saxon. l. h. steward . what is it you ask of this witness ? l. delamere . my lord , i desire him to give an account what he knows of a letter , that was forged by saxon , in the name of one hildage . hall. about the nineteenth of december in the year , i received a letter by thomas saxon from richard hildage , wherein he desired me to send him the sum of six pounds odd money which i owed him ; i received the letter and paid the money , and to the best of my knowledge some little time after i met with the said hildage at newcastle , who asked me to pay him the money i owed him : i replyed i had paid the money , according to his note , but he said he never gave any such note , and threatned to sue me ; thereupon i sent one lord to hildage , that is here now in the court , and desired hildage his forbearance for a while , till i could get the money from saxon back again , and afterwards he sent again for his money , and i sent to saxon for it , but still the money did not come . l. h. steward . did you ever speak with saxon himself ? hall. no , but with his wife , who came to me about it , but he acknowledged , he wrote the letter before john lord. saxon. did not my wife tell you that richard hildage lent me the money ? l. h. steward . nay , you must not dialogue with one another , but if you have any questions you must propound them to the court : my lord delamere , have you any more questions to ask him ? l. delamere . no , my lord. l. h. steward . then what is it you would have him asked , saxon ? saxon. i desire you would please to ask him whether or no , he did not lend me the money ? l. h. steward . he , who do you mean ? saxon. richard hildage did . l. h. steward . what say you did richard hildage lend him the money ? hall. no , my lord. l. h. steward . look you , my lord delamere , the objection carries a great deal of weight in it , to prove him a very ill man , if it be fully made out . l. delamere . my lord , if your grace please i can prove that he owned the writing of the letter to another man. l. h. steward . my lord , he does own here , that he wrote the letter and that he wrote it in hildage's name , but he saith , the letter he so wrote in hildage's name was by hildage's direction , and if so , that takes off the objection made against him . l. delamere . i must submit that to your grace , whether what he says in that matter be evidence . l. h. steward . what hildage did , or did not , is the main turn of the question in this case ; for he might lend him the money , and yet afterwards might say , when he thought he might lose it , that he did not send any such letter , and all this be true , and saxon in no fault : i must confess , if hildage were here , himself , and should deny the lending of the money , or the giving him directions to receive it , you would have fixed a shrewd objection upon him ; but otherwise hear-says and discourses at second hand are not to take off the credit of any mans testimony . l. delamere . but hall says hildage denyed the receipt of the money , or any order for receiving of it . l. h. steward . that signifies nothing , being but by second hand . saxon. if it please your grace , here is my brother in court will give you an account of it . l. h. steward . well , well , hold your tongue ; will your lordship please to go on ? l. delamere . the next witness , my lord , that i shall call , shall be francis ling who came in . l. h. steward . what do you ask this witness ? l. delamere . mr. ling , pray will you tell his grace , and my lords , what you know concerning saxon's receiving any money in the name of mrs. wilbraham , without her order . ling. he called at this same hildage's at newcastle , and received twenty five shillings , and said it was for mrs. wilbraham in her name , but she never received a penny of the money , nor knew of his having received it , till he came to pay another quarter . l. h. steward . where is that mrs. wilbraham , is she here ? ling. no , my lord , she is a neighbour of ours , an ancient woman , fourscore years of age , and cannot come so far . l. h. steward . this is the same case with the other , you can never think to take off the credibility of witnesses by such testimony ; for this is only a tale out of an old woman's mouth : what if that old woman told him a false story ? ling. she said — l. h. steward . i care not what she said , this is no evidence at all . l. delamere . then 'pray call richard shaw who came in . l. h. steward . well , what says this witness ? l. delamere . shaw , can you tell any thing of thomas saxon's writing a letter , and sending it in the name of one paugston a bayliff ? shaw. he writ a letter , as i understand , concerning some money that i owed him ; for i owed him a little money , and being i did not pay it , he does forge a letter , and puts william paugston's name to it , so i got up the other morning — l. h. steward . where is paugston ? is he here ? shaw. no , my lord , he is not , but he told me he did not write the letter . l. h. steward . why , this is just the same again , and we all know how easie a thing it is to hear a bayliff tell a lye. shaw. i cannot tell , but i called — l. h. steward . all that is nothing , it is a difficulter matter to hear such fellows speak truth , than any thing else , i am sure . l. delamere . the next witness that i shall call , is , peter hough who appeared . l. h. steward . there is your witness , what say you to him ? l. delamere . pray acquaint his grace , and my lords , what you know of saxon's cheating you in the making of a bond. hough . my lord , he had six pound ten shillings in money , and ten shillings in work done , for which he was to give me a bond , and hereof he made the bond himself . i thought it had been right , and took it ; but about the time when the money was become due , i looked upon it , and it proved to be but for l. l. h. steward . what should it have been for ? hough . it should have been for six pounds ten shillings in money , and ten shillings in work . l. h. steward . did not he give thee a bond for all thy money ? hough . it should have been so , but i never had it . l. h. steward . had you never the money ? hough . no , i never had the money . l. h. steward . what did he say the bond should be made for ? hough . for seven pounds . l. h. steward . what say you to it saxon ? saxon. my lord , i had five pounds ten shillings of him in money , and ten shillings in work , for which i gave him bond , there were the witnesses names at it , the bond was fairly read , and i sealed it , and he took it with him . l. h. steward . ay , but he says it was to be for seven pounds . saxon. i never had any more of him than six pounds , and for that i gave him bond. l. h. steward . was the bond read to you ? hough . he read it himself , and he made it himself . l. h. steward . how did he read it ? what did you apprehend by his reading it was made for ? hough . i took it as he read it to be made for seven pounds . saxon. he may say what he pleases , but i had no more of him but six pounds ; i was to give bond for no more . l. h. steward . now the witnesses to this bond would be very proper to be produced here : for , if he did make the bond but for six pounds , when the debt that was to be secured was seven pounds , that is a sign that he had an intention to cheat him of the twenty shillings . l. h. delamere . that shews what a kind of man he is . l. h. steward . but this is but witness against witness , for he says he owed no more , and was to make the bond for no more . hough . it was as i tell you , i assure you , my lord. saxon. i had no more of him than six pounds . hough . did not i ask you afterwards one question more , and told you it was a cheat , and you said it should be mended ? l. h. steward . well , my lords have heard it , they will consider what weight to lay upon it . l. delamere . 'pray call edward wilkinson who appeared . l. h. steward . what do you ask him ? l. delamere . wilkinson , 'pray tell my lords , how saxon dealt with you about your horse ? wilkinson . my lord , he hired a horse of me for three days , and was to give me twelve pence a day , but he never came again , nor had i any satisfaction for my horse , but i lost my horse by the bargain , and my money too . l. h. steward . how long ago was it since he hired your horse ? wilkinson . my lord , it was the twenty third of june , to the best of my remembrance . l. h. stew. did not he agree with you for d. a day as long as he used your horse ? wilkinson . i expected to have my horse in days time . l. h. stew. but mind my question , did you agree that he should have him but days ? or , was he to give you d. a day for so long as he kept him out ? wilkinson . i was to have d. a day for him . l. h. stew. what , as long as he used him , or only for days ? wilkinson . he did agree with me to bring him again in days . l. h. stew. i perceive by the time , he rid into the rebellion with this horse , and he was a very knave for so doing , upon my conscience ? l. delamere . call william wright . who came in pray will you give my lords an account what reputation this thomas saxon is of in his countrey . wright . my lord , this thomas saxon came to live at sambige , and i had some dealings with him as well as other men , and i never found him to perfect his word in any thing . l. h. stew. what didst thou never find him ? wright . to perfect his word in any thing , my lord. l. h. stew. that is , make good his word i suppose , but that is your cheshire phrase . wright . whereupon i met with him one evening after evening prayer , and said to him , thomas saxon , if i cared no more for keeping my word than thou do'st , it were no matter if i were hang'd ; for to be sure , if thy mouth open , thy tongue lyes ; and he turn'd away from me , and would not answer me a word ; and since that he owed me some money , and when i asked him for it , he told me if i did trouble him for the money it should be the worse for me ; whereof all the town knows as well as i that i cannot set him forth in words as bad as he is . l. h. stew. can you instance in particular , friend , of any fraud , cheat , or cozenage that he has been guilty of ? for it is not what the town says , but what can be proved , that we must take for evidence ; the town that thou livest in may reckon thee but an idle fellow , and yet thou may'st be a very honest man for all that . wright . i trust , my lord , i am so , and shall always prove so . l. h. stew. well , what dost thou know ill of him ? wright . he did not keep his word with me . l. h. stew. wherein dost thou mean ? wright . as to money he owed me . l. h. stew. how much money did he owe thee ? wright . he owed me a deal . l. h. stew. how much dost thou call a deal ? wright . i cannot tell how much exactly . l. h. stew. does he owe thee any thing now ? wright . yes , but i cannot justly tell how much . l. h. stew. my lord delamere , i would be very unwilling to interrupt the method of your defence , or abridge you in your evidence ; but really this objection that you endeavour to prove by this witness , is not at all , as i conceive , for your lordships service : for it is a very hard case , if any one that owes money and does not pay it , shall for that very reason lose the credit of his testimony , this rather gives a countenance to what he says , that you know no other objections but such trivial ones to make against him . l. delamere . then , if your grace please , i will make short work of it , and spare your time ; i shall pass over this part of my evidence , though i have many more witnesses to this point , and come to other matters , to matter of fact to encounter this positive proof that has been given against me . your grace and my lords do observe , that this man saxon has testified that about the d or th of june last for there he fixed the time this man as an extraordinary person that was fit to be trusted in an affair of this nature , being confided in , and recommended by my lord brandon , was sent for by me to mere , where he found me and sir robert cotton and mr. offley , who did employ him to transact the matter of stirring up the countrey , in order to a rising and joyning with the late duke of monmouth : now i will first prove to your lordship in general , that sir robert cotton was not in cheshire for many weeks , nay several months , both before and after the time he speaks of : and next in particular i shall prove , as to the time that he has pitched upon , by divers persons that saw sir robert cotton here then in london , and give you particular reasons for it : first to prove that he was here in town so long in general : i shall produce his servants that saw him every day : call — billing who appear'd pray sir will you give an account what time sir robert cotton came to london , when he went out of london , and whether you were frequently in his company and saw him here . billing . my lord , to the best of my remembrance , sir robert cotton came to town the th of april last , and i was with him here in town , at his house at the horse-ferry till the latter end of july , and saw him constantly more than once or twice every day for that time , i used to come into his chamber most mornings before he was up , i used to buy in his provision for his house , i saw him in bed , or heard he was in bed every night . l. h. stew. did you belong to him ? billing . i am his servant . l. delamere . he lived with him in the house all the while he says ? billing . then about the latter end of july he went out of town for days to epsom , and then he came to town again , and continued here till the time he was committed to the tower , and never was in cheshire since the th of april last . l. h. stew. how come you to remember so punctually when he came to town , and that he staid here all the while ? billing . i know it by my accompts for the journey up , and by the tradesmens bills for the provision of the house ever since . l. h. stew. in what capacity did you serve sir robert cotton ? billing . i bought in all the provision for his house , and paid the tradesmens bills . l. h. stew. have you any papers in your pocket that will point to any particular time . billing . i have not the tradesmens bills here , my lord , nor my own accompts , but i have look'd upon them , and by that i am sure what i have testified is true . l. h. stew. who do you call next , my lord ? l. delamere . call margaret davis , who appeared , pray will you give an account to my lord , what time sir robert cotton came to town , and to the best of your remembrance when he went out of town again . davis . he came to town upon the th of april last , or thereabouts , and he has not been out of town any night since , except it were in august . l. h. stew. what day did he come to town do you say ? davis . about the th of april . l. h. stew. and you say he did not go out of town till august ? davis . no , my lord. l. h. stew. how do you know this ? davis . i was constantly in the house with him . l. h. stew. but how came you to be so exact as to the time ? davis . i saw him continually every day . l. h. stew. how came you to see him ? davis . i live with him in the house ? l. h. stew. pray recollect your self as to the time that he went out of town , for i perceive the other man says it was the latter end of july . davis . it was in august certainly , my lord. l. delamere . my lord , the other witness saith it was the latter end of july , and that may be very well consistent , neither of them speaking to a day . l. h. stew. well , are you sure he was in town all the month of june ? davis . yes , he was . l. h. stew. well , who do you call next ? l. delamere . mrs. sidney lane , who appeared . l. h. stew. what do you ask this gentlewoman ? l. delamere . i examine her to the same point : and i question not but i shall make it out to your grace , and my lords , none of us all three that he has named were there at that time . l. h. stew. i shall be very glad of it , my lord ? l. delamere . pray mrs. lane will you give an account when it was sir robert cotton came to town , and how long he staid here ? mrs. lane. he came to town the april before the coronation , and never lay out of town i am sure all those months of april may and june after he came to town . l. delamere . this gentlewoman , my lord , lived in the same house with him . mrs. lane. i did so , my lord , and saw him every night and morning . l. delamare . if your grace please i have or more witnesses to the same purpose , but i would spare their lordships time , if this point be fully cleared . l. h. stew. pray , my lord , do not abridge your self , for i know my lords will not grudge the time , but are very desirous you should have full liberty in what is pertinent . l. delamere . then i desire charles reeves may be called , who appeared i pray , my lord , that this man may give an account what time it was sir robert cotton came to town , and how long he stay'd here . reeves . if it please your lordship , he was in town before the coronation , and i saw him here every day from that time till after july , once or twice every day . l. h. stew. did you belong to him ? reeves . yes , and i do now . l. h. stew. in what capacity , friend ? reeves . my lord , i am his footman . l. delamere . may it please your grace , the next witness i have to produce is mr. ashburnham , being he cannot easily remove , i beg he may be heard in the place where he is . l. h. stew. ay , let him speak where he is , and let him speak out . l. delamere . pray sir , will you please to recollect your self what time you saw sir robert cotton , and where , the last summer ? ashburnham . my lord , i being at sir robert cotton's house at westminster , he desired me to present a petition of his to the house of commons for him , and it was about the latter end of the time allotted for petitions , i cannot exactly tell what day of the week or month it was , but i saw him that day i presented his petition , and i saw him at the committee of elections or days after . l. delamere . sir william twisden i desire may be also heard what he has to say to the same point . who answered to the same effect . l. delamere . mr. heveningham is my next witness , my lord , who i desire that he would please to give your grace and my lords an account , when he remembers to have seen sir robert cotton in town . mr. heveningham . my lord , it was a more than ordinary occasion that makes me remember the thing and the time so particularly . i was engaged in a dispute in the house of commons about my own election , and that was upon the d of june , then was a case debated in the house , whether a mayor that was elected a burgesse for any town could sit upon his own return , it was then carried he should not , and the next day which was the third of june , another question came on , whether sir joseph williamson was duly elected and returned , and i remember at that time i was walking with sir robert cotton in the court of requests , and mr. neal came out of the house , and told me , that it was carried by five , that he was not , and then sir robert cotton was with me . l. h. stew. so you speak as to the d and d of june ? mr. heveningham . my lord , had it not been upon this particular occasion , i could not have remembred the time so exactly . l. h. stew. you give a very good token for your remembrance , and my lords hear what you have said . l. delamere . will your grace please that the clerk of the house of commons may be called , and examined to the journal of that house , when it was sir robert cotton preferred his petition , and that will fix the time as to what mr. ashburnham and sir william twisden have said ? l. h. stew. call whom you please , my lord. l. delamere . it seems he is not ready , but i hope i have given your grace and my lords sufficient satisfaction , that sir robert cotton was not there at that time that this fellow speaks of . i will now go on and prove mr. offley was not there neither , and the first witness i call to that , shall be sir willoughby aston , whom i desire your grace will be pleased to hear speak in his place . l. h. stew. well , what do you say , sir willoughby ? sir w. aston . my lord , i desire to be guided in what account i shall give by the questions that shall be asked . l. h. stew. what is it that you ask sir willoughby aston ? l. delamere . pray can you remember , sir willoughby , what time it was , and whether about the latter end of may last , or when , that you know of mr. offley's being at your house , and how long he stayed there ? sir w. aston . i can give an account of his motion for ten days together , but that perhaps may be more than is necessary . l. h. stew. it will not be improper , sir , for you to give as exact and partiular account as you can of the times . sir w. aston . if your grace please , i will do it . l. h. stew. pray do , sir. sir w. aston . upon the th of may , which was tuesday , at night mr. offley and his lady , and some of their relations , came to my house , upon wednesday the th of may mr. offley was so sick that he kept his chamber and his bed all day , upon the th of may which was thursday , he was so ill that he kept his chamber all day , and rose about five at night , and i then waited upon him , and sate with him hours in his dressing room , on friday the th of may he went to church , that day was employed a great part in devotion , upon the th of may which was saturday , mr. offley and his lady went , and a great part of my family went with them , to one mr. pickerings six miles off my house , there they dined , and returned at night to my house , upon sunday the th of may , i have a particular remark whereby i remember that mr. offley went to visit mr. needham , upon monday the first of june , mrs. offley and the women of my family went to visit my lady brooks , but mr. offley not being well staid at home : on tuesday the second of june he was still at my house , there was a great deal of company there , and he was in the company all the day long : on wednesday the d , i fell sick in the morning about of the clock , but mr. offley was in the house all the morning , but in the afternoon he went to make a visit two miles from my house , at a place called the ware-house , where the ships ride at anchor ; and upon thursday morning which was the th of june he went from my house : now if your lordship desire to know any thing about any particular time about this compass , i 'le give you the best account i can . l. h. stew. can you tell where he went when he went from your house ? sir w. aston . he went directly home , as he said . l. h. stew. did you hear at any time that he stay'd by the way , between his going from you and coming to his own house ? sir w. aston . my son went with him two or three miles of his way , and i heard that at middle-wich he staid to speak with some of the militia officers that he met with by the way there at a muster , and afterwards went directly home . l. h. stew. pray is the usual way from his house to yours by my lord delamere's ? sir w. aston . no , my lord , directly another way . l. h. stew. will you ask sir willoughby aston any more questions ? l. delamere . no , my lord. mr. att. gen. if your grace please i would ask sir willoughby aston one question ? sir , i desire to know how far it is from your house to my lord delamere's ? sir w. aston . sir , it is about miles . l. h. stew. miles you say , sir ? sir w. aston . yes , my lord , of those northern miles . l. delamere . my lord , i have some more witnesses to examine to this point . l. h. stew. call whom you please , my lord ? l. delamere . i call mr. gregory next , my lord : who appeared pray give my lord an account , when mr. offley went from sir willoughby aston's last summer , and whither he went ? gregory . my lord , my master went from sir willoughby aston's house — l. h. stew. who is your master ? gregory . mr. offley , my lord. it was upon the th of june at of the clock in the morning , and went from thence to middlewich , and was at home at his own house about of the clock in the evening , as i was told , for i did not go directly home with him . l. h. stew. was he at mere that day at my lord delamere's ? gregory . no , not that i know of , i was not with him . l. delamere . then pray call thomas kidd . who appeared pray were you that day with mr. offley when he went from sir willoughby aston's ? kidd . yes , my lord , i was . l. delamere . what day was it ? kidd . the th of june . l. delamere . then whither went he ? kidd . he went the direct road to his own house , i never parted from him , nor did he stop any where till he came to middle-wich , where the countrey militia were exercising , and he just alighted off his horse , and spoke with major minshaw and some of the officers , but never so much as drunk by the way till he came to his own house . l. h. stew. what , to his house in staffordshire ? kidd . no , but to crew-hall in cheshire . l. h. stew. does mere lye in the road between sir willoughby aston's and crew-hall , so that your master might be there within that time ? kidd . no , that he could not do . l. h. stew. were you with mr. offley the whole journey home ? kidd . yes , my lord , i was . l. h. stew. were you no time from him ? kidd . no , my lord , i was not . l. h. stew. what time did he come home ? kidd . he came to his own house about or a clock at night . l. h. stew. and did not he go from thence that night ? kidd . no , my lord. l. delamere . now , my lord , i will prove as to my self that i was in london at the time as he speaks of . and first , i desire sir james langham may be heard to that : he appeared , but gave no evidence . l. delamere . pray call — booth who appeared l. h. stew. what is this gentleman's name ? l. delamere . he is my brother , my lord , his name is — booth . l. h. stew. what do you ask him ? l. delamere , pray can you remember what time in june you saw me in town here ? mr. booth . my lord , i saw my brother here in town , the d , th , th , th . and so on to the th of june , and the th of june i went out of town my self , i saw him sometimes twice or thrice a day in that time , for i did not lodge above half a score doors from him . l. h. stew. where was that ? mr. booth . in great russel street . l. h. stew. how come you to remember the time so particularly ? mr. booth . it was that day sennight before i went out of town , which was wednesday the th of june , and had it not been for that particular circumstance , i had not remark'd it so much as to be able particularly to remember it . mr. att. gen. pray , mr. booth , did you know of your brothers going out of town the th of may ? mr. booth . i heard he was gone out of town about that time . l. h. stew. why then , when came he hither to town again ? mr. booth . i cannot tell , but i saw him upon the d of june in the evening . mr. att. gen. my lord , it is not possible for him so to do in that time , if he rode post . l. h. stew. he did make a great deal of haste backward , and forward , that is certain . l. delamere . my brother does not know when i went , but as he heard , he says . l. h. stew. but pray ; my lord , mind the objection that has been made , for it carries a great deal of weight in it . it is plainly proved by two witnesses , that you went out of town the th of may at of the clock at night , and rode to hoddesdon , and the next day came to hitchin about noon , then they left you and return'd back again to london that night , and you told them you were going to see a sick child of yours in cheshire , how came you to make such post-haste back again , that he should see you here in london the d of june ? mr. booth . my lord , i am certain i saw him that day in the evening , and so on to the th . l. h. stew. did my lord then tell you how your friends did in cheshire ? mr. booth . i cannot remember the particular discourse we had . mr. att. gen. pray sir , when did he tell you he came to town ? l. h. stew. you say you used to see him every day once or twice a day . mr. booth . yes , i did so . l. h. stew. pray where was he the d of june ? mr. booth . he was not come to town ? l. h. stew. how long time was it before that , that you had not seen him ? mr. booth . i had not seen him of several days before . l. delamere . if it please your grace , here is another brother of mine that saw me at the same time , and tho' he be my brother i hope he is a good witness . l. h. stew. ay , god forbid else ; what is his name ? l. delamare . george booth . l. h. stew. well , what say you , sir ? mr. george booth . my lord , i saw my brother delamere here in town the th of june , by this particular circumstance which i cannot err in , that the next day , as i take it , i went down with him to the house of lords , to hear my lord macclesfield's cause , which was then there to be heard upon the appeal of mr. fitton , and my brother was in the house of lords at that time , which was the th of june . l. h. stew. my lord delamere , i think it not amiss to put you in mind of one thing , which it is fit your lordship should give some answer to : does your lordship deny that you went out of town the th of may ? l. delamere . no , my lord , i do not ; i acknowledge i did so . l. h. stew. then it will be fit for you to give an account where you were the th of may , and so all along till the d of june ? l. delamere . if you grace please , i hope i shall give you full satisfaction in that by and by , but i have one witness more to this point of my being in town at such a time , that i could not be in cheshire , when this fellow says i was ; and that is my lord lovelace . l. h. stew. there is my lord lovelace , what will you ask him ? l. delamere . whether he did not see me at the tryal of my lord macclesfield in the house of lords . l. lovelace . i vvas in the house of lords that day that my lord macclesfield's tryal was , and i remember i did see my lord delamere there . l. h. stew. but we are as much at a loss now as ever we were , for what day that tryal was does not appear : what day was my lord macclesfield's tryal ? l. delamere . the journal of the house of lords proves that to be the th of june . l. lovelace . my lord stood just by the bar , and if i am not mistaken took notes . l. delamere . my lord , i hope now i have satisfied your grace , and the rest of my lords , that none of us three whom this fellow has mentioned were there at that time at mere , when he says we were : for my own part i do positively affirm , and i speak it as in the presence of almighty god , that i have not seen sir robert cotton at my house that i know of these many years , and i believe mr. ossley was never in my house since i was master of it : and i do likewise protest that , to my knowledge , i never saw the face of this man till now that be is produced as a witness against me ; i am sure i never spoke with him in all my life , nor never sent for him to come to my house : and if your lordship please to consider the story that he tells , it will easily appear to be very improbable , for he neither tells you vvho the messenger was that was sent for him , nor the way that he came into the house , which any body that has ever been at the house could not mistake . for when i asked him what door it was he came in at it was for this reason , because he must needs have gone a great way about , if he had not come in at the usual entry into the house , for i have but one door into my house except that by the stables , which is a great vvay off the house ? and it being about that time of the year , if it were or of the clock in the evening , he must needs discern which way he came in : and , besides , my lords , is it probable what he says , that he should see no body stirring about the house except it were this man without a hand , that he says was sent for him ? i assure your lordships , i have not , nor had my father ever , that i know of , any servant or tennant that was maimed in that manner that he speaks of ; he saith , he was recommended to us by my lord brandon : but he cannot tell your lordship any thing that ever he had done , to recommend him either to him or us : i did ask him what important service he had ever done for me , that might give a credibility to my imploying him in such a business as this . my lord , i cannot help it , if people will tell false stories of me , but i hope your lordships will consider the credibility of it ; is it to be imagined that i would take a man i knew nothing of , upon another mans word , into so great a confidence , as to employ him about a business of this nature ? i am glad that he was called in here again for your lordships to view him , i beseech your lordships to look at him ; is this fellow a likely fellow to be used in such an affair ? does he look as if he were fit to be employed for the raising of ten thousand men ? does he seem to be a man of such considerable interest in his countrey ? a fellow , that though it be not direct evidence , yet by several witnesses , i have shewn to be a man of no reputation in his country , nay of a very ill one ; and could we have none else to employ in a matter of this moment but such a fellow as his neighbours would not take his word for any thing ? it is an improbable story upon these accounts , if i should say no more . your lordships likewise see , that he is so well thought of , that he dare not be trusted out of newgate , but is kept still a prisoner , and as such gives evidence here : and i know your lordships will not forget that he swears to save himself , having been a rebel by his own confession , and he would fain exchange his life for mine , till he has a pardon , which as yet , as i am informed , he has not ; the objection will still lye upon him , that he swears to save himself , which will render his testimony not credible , and the law requires the witnesses , in treason , to be credible ones : and yet , forsooth ! this man , that no body that knows him will believe a word he says , must be taken to be the man of integrity , zeal , and industry ; the man of management and dispatch , the man of interest and authority in his countrey , that nothing can be done , but he must have a hand in it . my lords , i think i need say no more of him ; your lordships time is precious , too precious indeed to be spent upon such a subject , and so i set him aside . my lords , there is a thing that i perceive the king's counsel lay a great weight upon , and that is my going down upon the th day of may , and my frequent riding post to and fro . i shall now satisfie your lordships of the reasons of my journeys . the first time which was betwixt the coronation and the sitting of the parliament was upon this reason ; i went down to take possession upon a lease of a considerable value which was renewed to me by the bishop . i did not think of going down at that time so soon ; but i had word wrote me out of the countrey that the bishop was ill , and that obliged me in point of interest to make haste down . and this i shall prove by one that was attorny for me , and another that was a witness of my taking possession : and for this , i first call mr. john edmonds who came in pray sir , will you tell his grace and my lords , what you know of my coming down into the countrey in the beginning of may , and upon what account , and what time it was ? mr. edmonds . may it please your lordship upon the th of may , my lord delamere did me the honour to come to my house , and he stayed there a little while , and desired me to be a witness of his takeing possession upon a lease of my lord bishop of chester's , and we went into the house that was next to mine , which was 〈◊〉 and there did take possession . l. h. stew. where is your house ? mr. edmonds . at boden , in cheshire . l. h. stew. when was this , do you say ? mr. edmonds . the th of may. l. delamere . pray sir , will you satisfie my lord , whether the bishop was not ill at that time ? mr. edmonds . my lord , i had been a little before at chester , and hearing my lord bishop was not very well , i went to mr. allen , and told him i was desirous to see my lord , and speak with him , if i might ; he told me my lord was so ill , that he would speak with no body . l. h. stew. was it a lease for years , or a lease for lives ? mr. edmonds . it was a lease for lives . l. h. stew. then that might require my lord's takeing possession . who do you call next , my lord ? l. delamere . mr. henry . l. h. stew. what do you ask this man , my lord ? l. delamere . pray , will you give his grace and my lords an account , whether you were not attorney , and delivered me possession upon the lease of my lord bishop of chester . mr. henry . my lord , i was attorney by appointment , and the th of may last i delivered possession to my lord delamere at one of the most remarkable places of the land that belonged to that lease of the bishop . l. delamere . my lords , i hope this a satisfactory reason for my going down at that time , the bishop being ill , and the lease being worth or l. the next time that i have to speak to , is , that of my going the th of may , and for that i give this answer ; i did go out of town the th of may , the occasion of my going was , i had taken up a resolution before to go see my child that was not well , but i had not taken my journey so soon , nor with such privacy , but that i had notice , there was a warrant out to apprehend me , and knowing the inconveniences of lying in prison , i was very willing to keep as long out of custody as i could , and therefore i went out of the way , and under a borrowed name . when i came to my house in cheshire , there were not above of my own servants that saw me all the while i was there , and i saw no body but them , but while i was there my wife sent me an express , that as to the warrant she hoped it was a mistake , and there was no such thing ; but my eldest son was very ill , and if i intended to see him alive i must make haste up , this was the occasion of my quick return , and i shall satisfie your lordships by proof , that i came thither in that manner to avoid the warrant , and for no other reason . l. h. stew. you say you went to see a sick child in the countrey . l. delamere . may it please your grace , my mother that is here , wrote me word that my child was not well . l. h. stew. pray , what made you come back again so soon ? l. delamere . because i had an express sent me by my wife that my other son vvas like to dye . l. h. stew. call your witness , my lord. l. delamere . mrs. kelsey , who came in pray will you give an account what i said , when i came down , vvas the occasion of my coming so privately and changing my name ? mrs. kelsey . my lord heard , he said , there was a warrant for taking of him up , and he gave me that for a reason ; besides his little son in the country was ill . l. h. stew. what , she lived in the countrey , did she ? mrs. kelsey . my lord , i was in the house with him . l. delamere . if your lordships please my mother may be examined ? l. h. stew. yes , with all my heart . she sate by him at the bar. l. h. stew. pray madam , will you lift up your voice , that my lords may hear what you say . lady delamere . my lords , this child of his that was in the countrey , was more than ordinarily pretious to him , in regard it was born to him at that time , when he was an innocent honest man , ( as he is now a prisoner in the tower for high treason , ) above two years ago , and i think it increased his affection to the child , that god had given it to him when he was in that affliction , my lord , i knowing the affection that the father and mother both had to the child , my care in their absence i thought ought to be more exercised about him : the child sucked , but i ●●w the child decline , and therefore i was of opinion that he sho●●d be weaned , and i sent up word , that if they did not take car● quickly and look a little after him , i was afraid he would go i● 〈◊〉 consumption . upon this my son came down , i saw him not indeed , because he was very private all the while he was in the countrey , but while he was there , it pleased god to visit his eldest son with a dangerous distemper , upon which my daughter sent for him post , if he intended to see his son alive . and thereupon i think he made what haste back again he could . l. h. stew. were you in the same house with him , madam ? lady delamere . my lord , i say , i did not see him all the time he was there , i only tell you what i heard . l. h. stew. how long was he in the country ? lady delamere . i cannot tell exactly that , i think he was not above two days . l. h. stew. he must be but one day by computation of time ? l. delamere . pray , my lord , i will satisfie you in that point presently : mrs. kelsey vvill give an account what time it was that i came down , and vvhen i went avvay . mrs. kelsey . my lord came down upon the sabbath-day night , and stayed there monday , and went away the tuesday morning . l. h. stew. look you , my lord , the th of may was upon a wednesday , that night you went out of town , and wont to hoddesden , thursday which was the th you came to hitchin at noon , friday was the th , saturday the th , sunday was the th , then you came to your house , munday the st of june , tuesday the d , then you came away , and upon wednesday the d you were in town , so says your brother . l. delamere . it was so , my lord. l. h. stew. which way did you come back ? l. delamere . i came post through coventry , my lord , and that was the time that hope speaks of , that i told him i had come another way into cheshire , when i came down . l. h. stew. my lord , you say you went down to secret your self from a warrant that you apprehended was out against you , and that made you go a by-way , how came you then to come so publickly back , the ordinary post rode ? l. delamere . if your grace please , i have told you i had an express came from my wife that told me it was a mistake as to the warrant , but my child was very ill , and i must make haste up . l. h. stew. have you any more witnesses , my lord ? l. delamere . yes , my lord , i desire mr. kelsey may be called , he came in . l. h. stew. well , what say you ? mr. kelsey . my lord came down upon the sunday night at of the clock , and stayed at home all monday , and on tuesday morning , at of the clock in the morning , he took horse ●●r london , and i have letters by me that are dated the th of ●●●e which was thursday , that told me my lord was come to town ●●e night before . l. h. stew. whose are those two letters ? mr. kelsey . they were from my lady and mrs vere booth , and both came by the same post . l. delamere . i shall call one witness more , my lord , to prove that my child was sick here in town and the time , and that is sir thomas millington , who was his physitian . sir thomas was called , and came in . l. delamere . pray sir thomas , can you recollect your self what time my son was ill last year . sir tho. millington . my lord , i was sent for to my lord delamere's son upon the th of may , and i found him then very ill , and he continued so for two days . insomuch as i told my lady delamere his mother that i thought the child would not escape , i told it likewise to sir james langham , who is my neighbour in lincolns inn fields ; what they did upon it , whether they sent for my lord delamere to town or no , i cannot tell , but i know punctually this was the time by reason of the bills i wrote are dated on that day , otherwise i could not have remembred the time , but the bills being sent me from the apothecary , i find that date to them . l. h. stew. pray , mr. attorney will you call edlin again , or vaux , either of them . mr. att. gen. here is edlin , my lord. l. h. stew. where did you part with my lord delamere , and when ? edlin . upon thursday the th of may at hitchin . l. h. stew. what time of the day was it when you parted ? edlin . it was about of the clock . l. h. stew. he went forward post into cheshire , did he not ? edlin . he did not go post , i suppose , for he went upon his own horse . l. h. stew. did he go upon his own horse ? edlin . it was the same horse he went to hitchin upon . l. h. stew. have you any more witnesses , my lord ? l. delamere . no , my lord , i hope i have given their lordships satisfaction in all points , and need to give no further evidence . l. h. stew. have you any thing more then to say , my lord ? l. delamere . my lords , i acknowledge i did go at that time privately a by-road , and by the name of brown , and as for jones , who it is said came from holland that day , i appeal to him himself , and i call god to witness i never saw the man before now in my life ; nay , till after i was made a prisoner upon this account , i never so much as heard of his name ; and your lordships see by the proofs , that all that has been said against me , except what this fellow saxon has testified , is but hearsay , nay indeed but hearsay upon hearsay at the third and fourth hand . my lords , if people will make use of my name , and say this , and that , and the other , and among themselves talk of messages sent to me ; can i or any man in the world help it ? at this rate who can be innocent , if a man must be guilty because others intend to draw him into treason ? for there is no more in the utmost that this proof can amount unto . it is at the pleasure of any two men in the world , to take away the lives , honours , and estates of any of your lordships , if it be a proof sufficient to make you guilty of treason , for them to swear you were intended to be drawn into treason . and , my lords , as to the truth of the thing it self , that there was any message or correspondence between the late d. of monmouth and me , i call god to witness i have neither wrote nor sent letter or message to him , or received letter or message from him , this years : i cannot tell what expectation he might have concerning me or any body else . it is very probable he might have expectation of assistance from some body , and that without such expectations he would not have made the attempt he did : but , my lords , all that is nothing to me , i had no correspondence either by letters or messages with him , so that all that has been said upon that point of his expectation , and what he declared , i must give the same answer to that i gave to the evidence about jones's message , that admitting it to be true , he did declare so , yet , no proof being made of an actual correspondence , it is no more but only an intention in him to draw men into the commission of treason ; and if that be allow'd for proof of guilt , i must repeat it again , there 's no man can be innocent . upon the whole matter , my lord , i must leave my case to the consideration of your lordships : i am not master of so much law or rhetorick as the kings counsel , to plead in my own cause , and i have had but little time to recollect and apply my defence to my accusation , but i hope what evidence i have offered has given your lordships full satisfaction that i am not guilty of what i stand charged with . and after all that has been said , my lords , i would beg your lordships to consider this , that if in case i were guilty of these things , and were conscious to my self of having been ingaged in an affair of this nature , can any man imagine i could have been so hardy as to have surrendred my self upon the kings proclamation , nay , if i with those other two gentlemen that he has named , had had any transactions of this kind , with such a fellow as he has been made appear to be by his neighbours ( that must needs be thought a man of no faith , because of no reputation , tho' he gives himself a great character as a man of great interest , of wonderful dispatch and dexterity in the management of such matters ) so as at first sight to put this large confidence in him ; can it be imagined i so little regarded my own life and all that is dear to me , as to have surrendred my self , were it not that i was certain of my own innocence and integrity : life it self , my lords , is to be preferred above all things but honour and innocence ; and job saith , skin for skin and all that a man hath will he give for his life , and why should i be presumed to have so little a value for it , as voluntarily to deliver up my self to destruction , had i been conscious that there was any one , who could really testifie any thing that could hurt me . besides , my lords , this very fellow saxon is but one evidence , and how far you will believe him , i must submit it to you , but surely one witness will never be sufficient to convict a man of treason , tho' thousands of hear-says , and such trival circumstances be tacked to it , especially when they are tacked to an evidence , which i dare say your lordships are far from thinking it deserves any credit . my lords , i desire your leave to ask this one question ; would not any of your lordships think himself in a bad condition as to his fortune , if he could produce no better evidence to prove his title to his estate than what has been produced against me this day to take away my life , and if such evidence as this would not be sufficient to support a title to an estate , certainly it can never be thought sufficient to deprive a man of life , honour , estate , and all . my lords , i am not the only man that has been or may be falsely accused ; god knows how soon the misfortune of a false accusation may fall to the lot of any of your lordships ; i pray god it never may , but since that may happen , i question not , but your lordships will be very cautious , how by an easy credulity you give incouragement to such a wickedness : for knights of the post will not end in my tryal if they prosper in their villany , and perhaps it may come home to some of your lordships , if such practices be incouraged , as i cannot but firmly believe they will not . my lords , the eyes of all the nation are upon your proceedings this day ; nay i may say , your lordships are now judging the cause of every man in england , that shall happen to come under like circumstances with my self at any time hereafter : for accordingly as you judge of me now , just so will inferior courts be directed to give their judgments in like cases in time to come . your lordships very well know , blood once spilt can never be gathered up agen , and therefore unless the case be very clear against me , you i am sure will not hazard the shedding of my blood upon a doubtful evidence : god almighty is a god of mercy and equity : our law , the law of england , is a law of equity and mercy , and both god and the law require from your lordships tenderness in all cases of life and death , and if it should be indifferent , or but doubtful to your lordships ( which upon the proofes that i have made , i cannot believe it can be ) whether i am innocent or guilty , both god and the law require you to acquit me . my lords , i leave my self , my cause and all the consequences of it with your lordships ; and i pray the all-wise the almighty god direct you in your determination . lord high steward . have you any thing more to say , my lord ? lord delamere . no , my lord. lord high steward . then mr. attorney , and you that are of the kings counsel , what have you to say more ? mr. soll. general . may it please your grace , and you my noble lords the peers of my lord delamere , the prisoner at the barr. the evidence that hath been given against this noble lord is of two natures , part of it is positive proof , and part is circumstantial , and though it be allowed that there must be two witnesses in cases of treason , and that circumstances tho never so strong , and sufficient to fortify one positive proof , do not nor can make a second positive witness ; yet i crave leave to say , that there may be circumstances so strong and cogent , so violent and necessary to fortify a positive testimony , that will in law amount to make a second witness such as the law requires . my lords , i do not say every circumstance will do it , but such as necessarily and violently tending to the same thing that was positively proved . as for example . if a man comes and swears against another that he said he will go immediately and kill the king , and another man that did not hear those words , comes and testifies his lying in wait , that circumstance of lying in wait , that was an action indifferent in it self , yet , when applyed to the positive proof , will be a second witness to satisfie the law , which requires two witnesses in treason . it must confess , my lords , when we will make circumstances to be a second evidence , they must be such as are necessarily tending to fortifie the positive evidence that was given by the single witness : now whether that be so in this case , i must , as becomes me , leave to your lordships consideration : it is not my business to carry the evidence further than it will go , and i am sure it is not my duty to let it lose any of its weight ; and if it have not that force it ought to have , i should be to blame , as not having done what belongs to me to do : i will therefore state the fact to your lordships plainly as it stands upon the proof , and submit the whole to your lordships determination . my lords , our positive proof with which i crave leave to begin , is but by one , single witness , and that is saxon , and his evidence is this , that being in cheshire where he lives , he was sent for about the d or th of june last to my lord delamere's house at mere , and there he was brought into a lower room , where he saw my lord delamere , sir robert cotton , and mr. crew offley : that my lord delamere told him he had received a message lately by one jones , that was sent from the duke of monmouth , whereby he understood that the duke would speedily be in england , and that they must provide men and arms to assist him when he came ; that he was a man recommended to them by my lord brandon , and that upon his recommendation they had thought fit to intrust him in the matter , and withal told him , they were to raise l. and men in that county : he tells you likewise , these gentlemen gave him guineys and l. in silver to go of an errand for them to the duke of monmouth , which he undertook to do , and hired a horse to that purpose . this , my lords , is the positive proof , and this , i must acknowledge , standing-single and by it self , will make but one witness ; but whether the circumstances that have been offered to your lordships by the other witnesses , be such violent circumstances as necessarily tend to fortifie and support that positive evidence , and so will supply the defect of a second witness , is the next question that i come to consider , and i shall take them into consideration in the same order that the evidence was delivered . the first step , my lords , that was made as to any evidence that toucheth this noble lord at the bar , was what was testified by my lord gray , ( for as to the other part of the evidence that related to the conspiracy in general , i need not trouble your lordships with the repetition of it ( that there was such an one is notoriously known ) but i say that part of the evidence in his history of the conspiracy , which my lord gray brought home to my lord delamere was this , that upon the first meetings and consultations , it was resolved upon , that the duke of monmouth should go into cheshire to make an interest there , and among the persons that he was directed to go to , and to apply himself to for advice there , as persons fit to be trusted , this noble lord was one . that upon the duke of monmouth's return out of cheshire , he did give his confederates here in town an account , how well he had been received , and that he liked all things very well there : this my lords , is the first circumstance offered that has been to you , to shew that he had a confidence in my lord delamere ; as a principal support of his designs at that very time . the next thing that we offer , is this message of jones's , and for that , our evidence has fully and plainly made it out to your lordships , that jones did go over into holland , and his business there was an errand from disney and major wildman , and the confederates here . the effect of his message was , that it was their opinion , that the duke of monmouth should go for scotland and joyn with my lord argyle ; but upon the receipt of the message , he being angry , said , it was too late for such a message now , and he would come into england , for he was ready to sail , and thereupon he did send this same jones back again into england upon a message , to inform the lords and others of his party , among whom my lord delamere was one , that he would have them betake themselves into their several countries , and not stay to be taken or clap'd up here , for that , he did understand , was the design ; and this message was delivered in writing ( now that the duke of monmouth did write a note and give it to jones , is verified by my lord gray's testimony too ) and this was sealed up , and he was not to open it till he came to sea , and when he did open it , he found it contained a signification of the place where he was to land , and where he was to rendezvouz , which was taunton , and who were the persons that were to have notice of it , among whose names we find my lord delamere's to be one ; but he does likewise tell you , he was not the man that was to carry the message to these persons , but he was to deliver it to matthews or wildman , and they were to transmit it to the other persons . he tells you likewise , that when he came to town , which was the th of may , he met neither with matthews nor major wildman ; whereupon being at a loss what he should do with his message , for want of those other persons , he acquainted disney that was executed , with his errand , who promised to take care that it should be delivered . this , my lords , is all jones's evidence , for jones does not say that he himself acquainted , or that disney did acquaint my lord delamere with the message . but here , my lord , is the main circumstance that renders the matter suspicious , that very night that jones came to town , and disney being acquainted with the message , had undertaken to get it delivered , does my lord delamere at ten of the clock at night go out of town , in the company of two friends under the disguise of the name of brown , and a bye-road , and so goes down to his own house in cheshire ; this i say , is the circumstance that renders the thing suspicious . now my lords , if we do prove by such sufficient evidence , as may make the matter manifest to you , that my lord delamere had notice of jones's message ( for upon that point the case will turn , whether he had notice such a message was brought , that such things were in agitation , such preparations made , and that they were all to go into the country ) then i say , his going down is a violent presumption , he had an intent to comply with the message , and joyn in the design . but now , my lords , comes the question , the main question , how is it made out that he had notice , jones brought such a message ? jones indeed , my lords , does not say that he himself imparted it to him , or that disney told him he had communicated it , but i think there is another witness , and that is storey , who saith , that brand , one that knew of the message , did acquaint him , that my lord had received it at the coffee-house , and that night went out of town . it is true , my lords , this is but a hear-say , but that which followed being matter of fact , my lord 's going out of town that night , so late in the night , and in such an unusual suspicious manner , gives more credit to the relation , than as a bare hear-say could have of it self . for unless there be some good account given of my lords thus going out of town , it is a kind of necessary presumption , that he acquainted with the message , part of which was , that he should go out of town ; and if so , it can have no other construction , with submission , than to be in pursuance of , and complying with the directions that that message brought him from the duke of monmouth . my lords , to carry this a little further , there were two witnesses produced that went out of town with him ; they seem indeed unwillingly to give their evidence , but i shall faithfully repeat what testimony they gave : their names were vaux and edlin . vaux he saith he met my lord delamere at the rummer-tavern in queen-street the th day of may , which was the day before jones came to town , and that then he appointed to go out of town the next day , which was the th , and accordingly he did go . edlin he saith , he met vaux at the custom-house upon the th of may in the morning , and being desired by him to go with him out of town , he did so , and there was with him a gentleman whose name was brown , and who now appears to be my lord delamere ; they went in company with him as far as hitchin , where they left him upon thursday the th at noon . this evidence is produced to shew , that my lord did go out of town at that time , and in that manner as has been alledged , and that these persons went with him to conduct him a private way that he should not go the common road. your lordships will consider what answer hath been given to this , and what account my lord delamere has given of himself . another thing my lords , that renders this matter suspicious , is the name which my lord was pleased to assume to disguise himself by , it being a name by which the party use to call my lord in their discourses of him ; and to prove that , we have likewise produced two witnesses , babington and paunceford . babington , he says , that in their consultations there were discourses of my lord delamere under the name of brown , and once at a tavern when my lord delamere was named by one in the company , he was presently catched up for it , and replied to , you mean mr. brown ; and so it seems that was the canting name under which they discoursed of my lord delamere . the other witness paunceford , he tells you , that being at disney's house , and concerned with him in the printing the late duke of monmouth's declarations ( for the printing of which , disney was executed ) one lock came for some of those declarations for mr. brown , and they were to be sent into cheshire : so that though your lordships observe the witness saith , some body else was called by the name of brown , yet you have had no account given you , that there was any other brown in cheshire . it is true indeed , my lords , that these are only things that disney said , and lock said ; but i must take leave to say , it is very suspicious , that if my lord went out of town into cheshire under the name of brown , and some persons shall on the behalf of brown come for declarations to be sent into cheshire , and my lord commonly in that parly go by the name of brown , that those declarations were for my lord , and that will be a great evidence of his correspondence with monmouth . but i confess , my lords , all this while our proof is circumstantial , and indeed there is no positive proof but that of saxon , and in him our proof must center , for without him i must acknowledge nothing that has been offered will be proof against my lord upon this indictment , for bare circumstances and bare suspicions will be no proof against any man , but such as are violent and necessary , and those joyned to a positive proof , such as the law requires . now then , my lords , i come to the consideration of what weight and stress is to be laid upon this positive evidence of saxons : and here i must confess there are objections made to this testimony , to which i cannot readily give an answer ; for saxon has sworn , that he was there at such a time , and that he was sent for and entertain'd as a person recommended by my lord brandon , as fit to be intrusted with the secret , and capable of being imployed to stir up the country , in order to the prosecution of a design they had on foot to raise a rebellion , and he does charge sir robert cotton and mr. crew offley to have been there at the same time . the evidence , my lords , that has been produced to falsifie this positive witness , in the point of sir robert cotton's being there , has been by five or six witnesses , who testifie sir robert cotton's being in town , and not elsewhere from the th of april to the latter end of july ; and i do not see what we have to say in answer to their testimony ; i must agree the proof to be full in that point , and if the evidence they give be true , i cannot say that saxon's evividence can be true in that point . likewise as to mr. offley , sir willoughby aston and others have testified , that he was not at my lord delamere's at the time saxon speaks of : for he gives you an account where he was every day from the th of may to the th of june , and his own servants bring him to his own house , upon the th of june in the evening , which is quite another way than from sir willoughby aston's to my lord delamere's ; if this likewise be true , what saxons says , cannot be true , i must agree it . there is another thing that is offered on my lord delamere's part , that he was himself in town at that time that saxon sayes he was at mere ; but here indeed the matter seems to be a little more strange and dubious , that my lord should make so much hast down , as to go out late at night , and so cautiously as to go by a wrong name , and yet to ride to town again the post-way to be here just the d of june , when saxon swears he was in cheshire . i must confess there is the proof of his two brothers that say , they saw him in town the d and th of june : there is likewise some account given of his going out of town , that it was upon a message received from his mother ; that his child in the countrey was sick , and indeed he did go a by-way and change his name for fear of a warrant in a messengers hands that was out against him to apprehend him . now , my lords , i do not hear any thing that has been offered , that there was any such warrant , or any discourse to ground that apprehension upon ; my lord had the first and only apprehension of a warrant ; but upon what reasons he himself best knows : this apprehension made him go out of town so privately , he sayes , because he would not be prevented of seeing his sick child . but how comes it to pass that my lord makes such a speedy return : by the proofs it appears he did not get there till sunday night , and upon the tuesday morning comes post for london . the account that he gives of that , is this , his hast was to see another child , that was here sick in town ; for he had received an express from his wife upon the monday to acquaint him , that the coast was clear , and there was no warrant out against him , but if he intended to see his child alive , he must make hast up to town ; and accordingly upon the tuesday morning early he sets out , and upon the wednesday in the evening is here in town again . but , with submission , my lords , there is no good account given by this noble lord , what reason there was for so many post-journeys backward and forward , as , had been testified , he to have made within a very little compass of time ; for besides this of his return post upon the d of june , there is only an answer given to one of the rest , which is , that of the th of may , when he saith he went to take possession of the land that he held by a lease then renewed to him by the bishop , which being of some value and consideration to his lordship , and the bishop being sick , he thought it necessary to go down post himself , and would not be content to receive livery by attornment . this is the only answer that is given to all those times of his riding post that have been given in evidence . these are matters of suspicion that are offered to your lordships , but i confess matters of suspicion only ; unless clear , positive , probable proof be joyned with them , will not weigh with your lordships to convict a man of high-treason where two witnesses are required . but whether these matters of suspicion be such violent and necessary presumptions as tend to fortifie the positive testimony , i must leave that to the consideration of your lordships . lord high steward . you do not call any more witnesses then i perceive . mr. soll. general . no , my lord. lord high steward . my lords , it has not been usual of late , for those who have sate in the place where i now am , upon those occasions to give you lordships any trouble in repeating or observing upon the evidence : in this case the evidence that hath been given has been very long , and it would be too great a presumption in me , should i have any manner of doubt in the least , that either your lordships have not well observed it , or the learned counsel for the king have been defective in collecting or remarking upon it , so as to need my assistance . but , my lords , i confess there is something i cannot omit taking notice of , not for your lordships sakes , but for the sake of this numerous and great auditory , that one mistake in point of law might not go unrectified , which seemed to be urged with some earnestness by the noble lord at the barr , that there is a necessity in point of law , that there should be two positive witnesses to convict a man of treason . he seemed to lay a great stress upon that , but certainly his lordship is under a great mistake , as to the law in that point ; for without all doubt , what was urged in answer to this objection by that learned gentleman that concluded for the king , is true , there may be such other substantial circumstances joyned to one positive testimony , that , by the opinion of all the judges of england , several times has been adjudged and held to be a sufficient proof . as for the purpose , in this case , suppose your lordships , upon the evidence that has been given here this day , should believe saxon swears true , who is a positive witness , and shall then likewise believe that there was that circumstance of jones's coming over from holland with such a message upon the th of may ( which is directly sworn in evidence , you are the judges of that evidence ) and what the other witnesses have sworn likewise , and is not denied by my lord , the prisoner at the barr , that he went out of town that night , changed his name , and went an indirect by-road , certainly these circumstances if your lordships be satisfied he went for that purpose do necessarily knit the positive testimony of saxon , and amount to a second witness . that is , if saxon's positive testimony be true , then suppose all these circumstances that gove the jealousie do make up a strong presumption to joyn with the positive evidence of saxon , then you have two witnesses as the law requires , especially , if the answer given by the prisoner to those circumstances be not sufficient ( as the slender account he gives of his so frequent journeys in so short a compass of time ) but that there still remains some suspicion ; i could have wished indeed , that matter might have been made somewhat more clear ; that no shadow of suspicion might remain . your lordships are judges : and if you do not believe the testimony of saxon , whose testimony hath been so positively contradicted by divers witnesses of quality , the prisoner ought to be acquitted of this indictment : if your lordships please , you may go together and consider of it . lords . ay withdraw , withdray . then the peers withdrew in their order according to their precedency with the serjeant at arms before them . lord high steward . lieutenant of the tower , take your prisoner from the barr : the prisoner was taken into the little room appointed for him at the entrance into the court. the peers staid out about half an hour , and then returned in the same order that they went out in , and seated themselves in their places as before . cl. crown . serjeant at arms , take the appearance of the peers , lawrence earl of rochester lord high treasurer of england . he stood up uncovered and answered . lord treasurer . here. and so did all the rest . lord high steward . my lords , are you agreed of your verdict ? lords . yes : the lord high steward took their verdict seriatim , beginning with the puisue peer in this manner : lord high steward . how say you my lord churchill , is henry baron of delamere guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted and hath been arraigned , or not guilty . the lord churchill stood up uncovered , and laying his hand on his breast answered , lord churchill . not guilty upon my honour . and so did all the rest of the peers . lord high steward . lieutenant of the tower , bring your prisoner to the barr. the prisoner was brought again to the barr. lord high steward . my lord delamere , i am to acquaint you that my noble lords your peers , having considered of the evidence that hath been given , both against you and for you , after they were withdrawn , have returned and agreed of their verdict , and by that verdict have unanimously declared , that you are not guilty of the high-treason , whereof you have been indicted , and this day arraigned , and therefore i must discharge you of it . lord delamere . may it please your grace , i shall pray to almighty god , that he will please to give me a heart to be thankful to him for his mercy , and my lords for their justice ; and i pray god deliver their lordships , and all honest men , from wicked and malitious , lying and false testimony ; i pray god bless his majesty and long may he reign . lord high steward . and i pray god continue to him his loyal peers , and all other his loyal subjects . cl. crown . serjeant at arms , make proclamation . serjeant at arms. oyes . my lord high steward of england , his grace straightly willeth and commandeth all manner of persons here present to depart hence in gods peace and the kings , for his grace my lord high steward of england now dissolves his commission . god save the king . at which words his grace taking the white staff from the vsher of the black rodd , held it over his own head and broke it in two : thereby dissolving the court. finis . the tryal and conviction of thomas knox and john lane for a conspiracy to defame and scandalize dr. oates and mr. bedloe thereby to discredit their evidence about the horrid popish plot : at the kings-bench-bar at westminster, on tuesday the th of novemb. ... : where upon full evidence they were found guilty of the offence aforesaid. knox, thomas, th cent. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and conviction of thomas knox and john lane for a conspiracy to defame and scandalize dr. oates and mr. bedloe thereby to discredit their evidence about the horrid popish plot : at the kings-bench-bar at westminster, on tuesday the th of novemb. ... : where upon full evidence they were found guilty of the offence aforesaid. knox, thomas, th cent. lane, john, th cent. england and wales. court of king's bench. [ ], p. printed for robert pawlett ..., london : . advertisement on p. . reproduction of original in library of congress. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints 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in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng knox, thomas, th cent -- trials, litigation, etc. lane, john, th cent -- trials, litigation, etc. popish plot, . trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion i do appoint robert pawlett to print the tryal of thomas knox and john lane , and let no other person presume to print the same . william scroggs . the tryal and conviction of thomas knox and iohn lane , for a conspiracy , to defame and scandalize dr. oates and mr. bedloe ; thereby to discredit their evidence about the horrid popish plot : at the kings-bench-bar at westminster , on tuesday the th of novemb. . before the right honourable sir william scroggs , knight , lord chief justice , and the other judges of that court. where , upon full evidence , they were found guilty of the offence aforesaid . london : printed for robert pawlett , at the bible in chancery-lane , near fleetstreet . m. dc . lxxx . the tryal and conviction of thomas knox and iohn lane for a conspiracy to defame and scandalize dr. oates and mr. bedloe , thereby to discredit their evidence about the popish plot . on tuesday the th . day of november at the kings bench bar at westminster , thomas knox and iohn lane were tryed for the misdemeanour and offence herein after in the indictment expressed , and which tryal was in manner following . proclamation being made in usual manner for information and the defendants called to their challenges , the jury were sworn , whose names follow ; the jury . sir iohn kirke thomas harriot henry iohnson simon middleton hugh squire francis dorrington iohn roberts rainsford vvaterhouse thomas earsby ioseph radcliffe iames supple richard cooper . who being numbred the clerk of the crown charged them with the indictment thus , clerk of the crown . gentlemen , you of the jury that are sworn , hearken to your charge , you shall understand that the defendants stand indicted by the oaths of twelve honest and lawful men of the county of middlesex , by the names of thomas knox of the parish of s. margaret's westminster in the county of middlesex labourer , and iohn lane of the same parish and county labourer , for that whereas edward coleman , william ireland , and iohn grove , and other false traitors against our soveraign lord charles the second by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france , and ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c. to the jurors aforesaid unknown , the th . day of april , in the th year of the reign of our said soveraign lord the king , at the parish of s. margarets westminster in the country of middlesex , traiterously amongst themselves had conspired , consulted ; and agreed , to bring , and put to death and destruction our said soveraign lord the king , and war against our said soveraign lord the king within this kingdome of england to stir up , and the religion in the said kingdome of england rightly , and by the laws of the said kingdome established , to the superstition of the romish church to change and alter , and the government of the said kingdome of england to subvert ; for which their said most wicked treasons , and traiterous conspiraries , consultations , and agreements , they the said edward coleman , william ireland , and iohn grove , in due manner and according to the laws of this kingdome of england were afterwards attainted , and underwent the pain of death for the same . and whereas william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , iohn lord bellasis , henry lord arundel of wardor , william lord petre , and sir henry tichbourn baronet , the th . day of nov. in the th . year of the reign of our said soveraign lord the king aforesaid at the parish of st. margarets westminster aforesaid , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , of the treasons aforesaid , were lawfully accused , and thereupon according to due form of law were committed to the tower of london , being the prison of our said soveraign lord the king , there safely to be kept to answer for the treasons aforesaid , whereupon they the said william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , iohn lord bellasis , henry lord arundel of wardor , and william lord petre , were in parliament impeached by the commons in the same parliament assembled . and whereas thomas earl of danby , afterwards to wit the said th . day of november , in the th . year aforesaid , at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , of certain treasons and other misdemeanours , was lawfully accused , and thereupon , according to due form of law , was committed to the said tower of london , there to be safely kept to answer for the treasons and misdeanours aforesaid , of which said treasons and misdemeanours , he the said thomas earl of danby is impeached in parliament , by the commons in the same parliament assembled , that they the said thomas knox and iohn lane well knowing the said william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , iohn lord bellasis , henry lord arundel of wardor , william lord petre , and thomas earl of danby , to be accused of the treasons and misdeameanours aforesaid , and they the said thomas knox and iohn lane , being devillishly affected towards our said soveraign lord the king their supream and natural lord , and devising , and with all their strength intending the peace and tranquillity of this kingdom of england to disturb , and to hinder and stifle the discovery of the said treasons , by the said vvilliam earl of powis , vvilliam viscount stafford , iohn lord bellasis , henry lord arundel , and vvilliam lord petre , as aforesaid supposed to be committed , and as much as in them lay to elude the due course of law , and the prosecution of justice against the said vvilliam earl of powis , vvilliam viscount stafford , vvilliam lord petre , iohn lord bellasis , sir henry tichbourn , and thomas earl of danby , to retard , they the said thomas knox and iohn lane afterwards , to wit the th . day of april , in the th . year of the reign of our said soveraign lord the king , at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , falsly , maliciously and unlawfully did consult and agree among themselves , titus oates clerk , and vvilliam bedloe gentleman , who informations of the treasons aforesaid had given , and whom they the said thomas knox and iohn lane the day and year aforesaid , well knew to have given information of the treasons aforesaid against them , the said vvilliam earl of powis , vvilliam viscount stafford iohn lord bellasis , henry lord arundel , and vvilliam lord petre , to scandalize , and upon the tryal of the said william earl of powis , william viscount stafford , iohn lord bellasis , henry lord arundel , and william lord petre , to represent them to be persons of evil conversation , and witnesses not deserving credit . and that he the said thomas knox afterwards , to wit the said th . day of april , in the th . year aforesaid , at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , in the names and with the consent and agreement of the said iohn lane , and one vvilliam osborn , to disgrace the information of the said titus oates and vvilliam bedlow , against them the said vvilliam earl of powis , vvilliam viscount stafford , vvilliam lord petre , iohn lord bellasis , and henry lord arundel , for our said soveraign lord the king , to be given falsly , maliciously , subtilly , and advisedly , did write and cause to be written three letters , and those letters , so written falsly , craftily , unlawfully , and advisedly , did direct and cause to be delivered to himself the said thomas knox , by which said letters falsly , craftily , and deceitfully , it was declared that they the said iohn lane and vvilliam osbourn were greatly troubled in their consciences by reason of certain things which they well knew , and had concealed concerning the nnjust contrivances of the said titus oates and william bedloe , in accusing the said thomas earl of danby , to be guilty of the treasons and other misdemeanours aforesaid , and that the said titus oates was a person of a wicked and vitious life , and made an assault upon the said iohn lane , and with the said iohn lane to commit that detestable sin called sodomy before that time had endeavoured . and that he the said thomas knox , the sooner and more effectually to perswade the said iohn lane and vvilliam osbourn falsly to accuse the said titus oates and vvilliam bedloe , that they the said titus oates and vvilliam bedloe unjustly , and against all truth had accused the said thomas earl of danby , of the treasons and other misdemeanours , aforesaid , and so to affirm against the evidence of our said soveraign lord the king , upon the trial of the said thomas earl of danby , for the treasons and other misdemeanours aforesaid , to be had afterwards , to wit the said th . day of april , in the th . year of the reign of our said soveraign lord the king aforesaid , at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , falsly , advisedly , corruptly , and against the duty of his allegiance , unlawfully gave to the said iohn lane , and william osborn divers great sums of money , and also further falsly , advisedly , corruptly , and against the duty of his allegiance , the day and year aforesaid , at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , did promise unto the said iohn lane and william osbourn , that they the said iohn lane and vvilliam osbourn , within a certain time by the said thomas knox , to the said iohn lane and william osbourn , propounded divers other great sums of money , and other great rewards therefore should have and receive against the duty of their allegiance , to the great retarding , obstructing and suppressing of justice , in manifest contempt of the laws of this kingdome of england to the evil and pernitious example of all others in the like case offending , and against the peace of our said soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , to this indictment , the said thomas knox and iohn lane , by their attorney plead that they are not guilty , nor either of them is guilty of the offence aforesaid , and further withal put themselves upon the country , and the kings attorney likewise . and your charge is to inquire if they are guilty or not guilty , &c. clerk of the crown . make an , o yes . cryer . o yes , if any one will give evidence , on the behalf of our soveraign lord the king , against thomas knox and iohn lane , of the misdemeanours and offence whereof they stand indicted , let them come forth and give their evidence . then trenchard esq of counsel for the king in this cause opened the indictment thus . mr. trench . may it please you lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , thomas knox and iohn lane , stand indicted for a great and high misdemeanour , and the indictment sets forth , that whereas coleman , ireland , pickering , and grove , and other false traitors did conspire to destroy the king , and change the religion established by law , to levy war against our soveraign lord the king ▪ and to introduce popery , and for these treasons were convicted , attainted , and executed , and further sets forth , that the lord powis , lord arundel of warder , and others were accused of the said treasons , and were committed to the tower , and afterwards were impeached for the same by the commons in parliament assembled , as also that thomas earl of danby , was impeached of high treason and other misdemeanours , that the defendants knowing mr. oates and mr. bedloe had given information of these treasons to stifle the evidence , and to scandalize them , did falsly conspire to represent them as wicked persons and men of no credit . and the indictment further sets forth that the defendant knox , with the agreement of lane , and one osbourn did cause several letters to be writ , in which it was contrived to accuse the said oates and bedloe , that they had conspired falsly to accuse the said earl of danby , and that oates was a person of a vitious conversation , and had a design to attempt an assault upon the person of the said lane , with an intention to commit that detestable sin of sodomy , the better to effect which wicked designs , the said knox gave several sums of money to osbourn and lane , and had offered great rewards unto them . to this indictment they have pleaded not guilty , and you are to try whether they are guilty or not , of this misdemeanour . then sir iohn maynard the kings eldest serjeant at law persued the charge thus . mr. serj. mayn . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury ; this cause is of great consequence , and my lord i desire the jury to observe that their question this day is not to inquire whether the lords or the other persons accused and impeached in parliament are guilty or not , but the question before them , is , whether the persons that stand here indicted are guilty of wicked and vile endeavours , to discountenance and suppress the evidence and scandalize their persons , who were to give evidence against these lords , we are not to give evidence against the lords , but against these persons . l. chief , iust. you are right brother . mr. serj. mayn . gentlemen , something i must observe to you , that is an inducement to this matter , that there hath been an horrid and abominable conspiracy against the king , the nation , the religion , and the law , appears ( my lord ) by the proceedings in parliament , wherein the lords and the commons , have several times joyntly declared , and , i think , 't is so publick that no body will doubt there is such a thing ; who is guilty that is another matter . l. cheif . iust. this court must take notice of that ▪ because , some have been tryed , convicted , and condemned for it by this court. mr. serj. mayn . your lordship says right . but , my lord , the first discovery of this conspiracy came from a single person , one that stood single and discouraged a long time , and that there were endeavours to discourage his further discovery that will appear . my lord , when it stood so , it happened that sir edmondbury god. frey had taken his examination , and these things will be material in the end of the cause . sir edmondbury godfrey having taken the examination of oates , then the endeavour was to suppresse this examination that he had taken , and that by no less a wickednesse then the barbarous murder of that honest gentleman , whom you all knew , and they not only took away his life , but they did strive to baffle and defame him when he was dead , and that will appear too , and is publick and known . my lord , all this while stood oates single , it fell out by the mercy of god , that a further discovery was made by bedloe , he was examined , and it is publickly known , and publick justice hath gone upon it . the next attempt was to corrupt the testimony of bedloe , with bribes and rewards , and by other ways , and the person that transacted it , reading , is attainted of it , scelere tutandum est scelus , when men have invented and designed any great wickednesse , they are forced to enter upon others to cover and conceal the former . my lord , it proceeded now , and comes to that which will be the question this day . having gone all these wayes , now they return again , to see if they can disgrace and baffle the evidence oates and bedloe had given , and the way to that is by disparaging and scandalizing them with foul offences , especially dr. oates , and that was thus ( as we shall prove to your lordship ) lane had been a servant with oates , and the other was one of the like condition , and he was tampered with to accuse dr. oates of that horrid sin of sodomy , and i think if he were such an one , little credit were to be given to such a man. this was the design they were to accomplish . and we shall prove to you , in order to it there were letters ( written and contrived by knox indeed ) written by osbourn who is not now before you , but a contrivance of them all . and , my lord , there must be a pretence ) for in truth these persons had been examined , and had charged him with this offence , but upon further examination they had renounced their discovery . l. chief . iust. had they all given evidence ? or who did ? mr. serj mayn . no , my lord pardon me , i am not speaking of their evidence but only of their examination , before the lords . l. chief . iust. what was it that was there witnessed ? mr. serj. mayn . then they pretended this matter , that they were touched in conscience , and now they repent , and must discover the truth for the truths sake , that themselves were false in the making of the charge , and this , my lord ▪ must be furthered with bribes and rewards as we shall prove to you . we shall make out the particulars by witnesses , and then we think we may leave it to your lordship and the jury to determine . in truth , my lord , it happens in this case as it did long ago , when the first discovery was of a like design , and as is told us by the historian . multi ob stultitiam non putabant , multi ob ignorantiam non videbant , multi ob pravitatem non credebant & non credendo conjurationem adjuvabant . then sir creswel levins his majesties attorney general , further opened the evidence thus . mr. attorn . gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . i am of counsel for the king in this cause whose suit it is . the evidence hath been opened fully by mr. serjeant . i shall only say this , that this is a counter-part of mr. readings case , only it seems in this to differ , that the counter-part exceeds the original , for , i think , that it is of a further extent then his was . it hath been told you by mr. serjeant , and , i know , the court will tell you , that it matters not whether those persons that are accused of the plot , and impeached for it were guilty or not , it is sufficient that they are accused , and that by these persons . for any body to endeavour to suppresse and withdraw the kings evidence , or to disgrace the kings evidence , that is not lawful , be the crime what it will be , but it is a much greater crime in a case of this nature of high treason , where the life of the king , the government of the kingdome , the religion , and the true worship of god established in it , and the laws of the nation are in danger : some of these persons are guilty , for mr coleman and several others , have been found guilty , and have been executed for it , the design in this case that lies before you gentlemen to try , was to throw a disparagement upon the testimony of those persons by whose evidence those traitors were principally attainted and executed . this is gentlemen to affront the justice of the nation , and indeed to cast a disparagement upon it ; and that sure is as great an offence as can be ; the matter of the evidence hath been opened to you , i shall only acquaint your lordship and the jury , that it hath been designed a great while , and so long designed , that one of the persons here accused , mr. lane , one of oats's servants , had the opportunity to get into his masters secrets , thereby the more effectually to betray him , and as it will appear by witnesses , did carry on the design till it was discovered , and by that discovery prevented as to any success . mr. recorder , your lordship is pleased to observe in the indictment that is now to be tried , there are but two persons that stand indicted , that is , lane and knox. i presume the gentlemen that are on the other side for each of the prisoners ( for i perceive those that are for the one are not for the other ) may expect that there should be proof made of what is laid as inducement in the indictment , and will not tend immediately to that which will be the question in this case : for there is recited in the indictment the conviction of coleman in this place , and others in other places , for the high treason the evidence whereof these persons are indicted for scandalizing , we have here the records ready to prove it . lord chief iust. i suppose they will admit that . mr. recorder , if they will not , we have that which will prove it . mr. withins , my lord , we shall not stand upon that . sir francis winnington , we are ready if you did . mr. serjeant maynard , and you will admit that doctor oates and mr. bedloe were witnesses upon those trials ? mr. withins , yes , and gave evidence very considerable . mr. recorder , then my lord , we must hint to you , that lane , who is one of the persons taken notice of in the indictment , was a servant to doctor oates , knox was not in his service ; but knox is a man that made use of lane as a handle to the matter he had designed ; therefore letters are prepared , but by whom ? that we shall give you an account of was by the direction of knox , though the letters that will be produced are directed to knox himself . lord chief iust. your indictment says so . mr. recorder , but we shall give you an account , that he was director of those letters himself ; but as your lordship may observe , there are not only letters , but some accusations or informations . we shall prove to your lordship whose hand-writing they were , and who dictated those informations : for i think that mr. knox is pretended to have the most brains ; and i believe mr. knox in the consequence will appear to have the most malice . and we shall prove in the next place , that inasmuch as it would be natural in the course of justice to ask , whether these persons should not have money for the reward of such a business ; we shall prove that there were treaties with mr. lane and one mr. osborne who is not indicted , ( but was likewise a servant to doctor oates , and had thereby an opportunity of deceiving him ) that they had meetings ; how guineys have been cunningly dropt down , which was to prevent , as i was acquainting your lordship , any such question that should be asked , what moneys and rewards they were to have for this great discovery of any wickedness that mr. oates should be guilty of . mr. knox he prepares them in this manner , at every meeting , when they were discoursing and pursuing this business , then by some unlucky accident or other mr. knox he is to drop a guiney or two , according as mr. lane and the other person had occasion or a desire to have it ; but none were to be given , but as by accident , as if knox holding his guineys in his hand , or in some other accidental way should drop them , and then osborne and lane were to pick them up in a kind of a jest only , as if knox had accidentally let them fall , and they had as accidentally taken them up . how this came to be discovered we must give you an account . matters being thus prepared by the instigation of knox , and transacted so far by lane and osborne , they thought it then fit to put their design in execution . accordingly their informations are produced before a justice of peace , who finding the matters were improbable ; ( for i think they had some scrutiny before the justice of peace , and before the lords committees of the lords house ) one of them gentlemen , though now he is pleased to say he is not guilty , yet at that time had a little more ingenuity , and did confess the whole matter , and how he was drawn in , and how far he was concerned , and how mr. knox had directed him , and the money and rewards he had received , and that besides divers other summs of money had been promised , and great rewards offered in case this design had taken effect . we shall call our witnesses before your lordship , and give in evidence the informations that they had intended to offer ; and if we shall prove the matters that have been opened to you , i believe the consequence of this case will appear as much to concern the government as any that hath come to this bar. sir francis winnington , my lord , if your lordship please we shall now go to prove our case ; the question was asked whether they would admit the several attainders of those persons that have been executed for this plot. i now ask them whether they will admit the several impeachments that are also mentioned in the indictment , both of the five lords in the tower , and also of the lord of danby . mr. withins and mr. scroggs , yes , we do . mr. iustice pemberton , all that they will allow . mr. recorder , then we begin with mr. radford . who was sworn . mr. attorn . gen. what is your name sir ? mr. radford , robert radford . mr. attorn . gen. come on , mr. radford , tell my lord and the jury what you know concerning this business , about lane and knox. mr. radford , sir , if it please your honour , r. lane , father of iohn lane was a yeomen of the guard extraordinary , and i am one of his majesties yeomen of the guard. as he was in waiting he was telling me a story — lord chief iust. richard was ? radford , yes , richard the father was telling me that doctor oates did attempt his son many times to do such and such things to him that was in the way of buggery ; said i , richard , i am ashamed of you , that you should cherish your son in such things as these are , so i went away in an anger , and told him , that if he were my son i would correct him severely for it , and said no more , knowing him to be a lying fellow , and all the whole guard know him to be a lying fellow , and that there is no truth in him . lord chief iust. all who ? radford , all the guard , and that is all i can say . mr. iustice iones , when was this ? radford , above a twelve moneth ago . and i knew that he was a lying man , and i durst not speak of it , because i knew he was so , and was afraid he would have put it upon me . lord chief iust. what , he told you that his son told him so ? radford . no , he told me only that his son was weary of doctor oates his service , and i told him that he was come away once before , and why did he go again ? he said his son could not be quiet . lord chief iust. did he say his son told him ? the question is plain , did he speak it of himself , and not that his son told him ? radford , he said only that he had attempted his son. mr. attorn . gen. my lord , we will call thomas allen. who was sworn . lord chief iust. what is this mans name ? mr. attorn . gen. mr. allen , my lord. what do you know of any application to bring this lane into oats's service ? tell your whole knowledge of the matter . mr. allen , my lord , about the month of december last , when he was gone out of doctor oates his service — lord chief iust. who was gone out of doctor oats's service ? allen , ●ane ; he desired me to intercede for him again and again , and accordingly he was admitted into his service again . mr. attorn . gen. did you hear any discourse before this of any attempt upon him . allen , how attempt ? mr. attorn . gen. did you ever hear of any complaints made by lane against doctor oates ? lord chief iust. did you ever hear lane complain that his master would be uncivil with him ? allen , no , i remember nothing of that . mr. recorder , now , if your lordship please , we shall give your lordship an account , that when he was admitted again , he bragg'd he should get a great summ of money , and for that we call mr. samuel oates . who was sworn . lord chief iust. are you brother to mr. oates ? mr. s. oates , yes sir. mr. attorn . gen. what do you know of any summ that this mr. lane did pretend to get , and on what account ? mr. s. oates , my lord , about a matter of a fortnight before he went away from my brother , i was in the withdrawing-room — lord chief iust. how long is it ago since he went away ? mr. s. oates , it was in april last , as near as i can remember . lord chief iust. well , go on sir. mr. s. oates , so there were several servants in the room , and they were talking and laughing together , and he was wishing , said he , i wish i had a thousand pounds ; said some of them to him , what would you do with it ? said he , i would take it and fling it upon the ground and tumble it : says one of them , you may wish long enough before you have it : i que ion not , says he , but ere long to find a way to get a thousand pounds . mr. recorder , do you hear him gentlemen ? this was a fortnight before he went away . mr. s. oates , i can only speak as to osborne as to the thing it self . mr. attorn . gen. did you ever hear him say which way he did intend to get this thousand pounds ? mr. s. oates , no , i do not remember that , but upon these scandalous things coming out , i was considering what he had said , and how he behaved himself in his service , and upon recollection i did think of this saying of his . mr. iust. pemberton , ay , he recollected it afterwards . mr. williams , speak those words over again , as near as you can remember . then mr. s. oates repeated his evidence to the same effect . sir francis winnington , what is that of osborne that you can say ? lord chief iust. what does that signifie to these defendants ? sir francis winnington , although he is not a party that does defend this matter , yet it is all one intire act that they three were in combination to corrupt the king's evidence , and to stifle it ; and though so far as it does relate of osborne , it will not convict him being absent , yet it will inlighten the king's evidence about the conspiracy , for he is mentioned in the indictment . lord chief iust. well , if you think it material , you may ask what questions you will about it . mr. s. oates , i was asking osborne a little after he was let out of the gatehouse , how he came to repent himself — lord chief iust. who had repented himself ? mr. s. oates , osborne . lord chief iust. had osborne repented himself , of what ? mr. s. oates , of what he had given an account of before the committee . mr. iust pemberton , do you know any thing of that ? mr. s. oates , i know nothing but what they did say upon their examination . l. c. iust. were you by , and present at their examination ? mr. s. oates , i heard nothing but what they said for themselves . i was at some part of their examination . m. iust. pemberton , what did knox and lane say ? mr. s. oates , osborne was a saying , that as we walked , said he , in the cloisters of the abbey , where he did dictate what we were to do . l. c. iust. this is no evidence . shall what osborne says at one time and apart from the rest be any evidence here ? mr. recorder , no my lord , we offer it only as an evidence of the general conspiracy . l. chief iust. osborne is a telling how knox and lane and he did conspire and contrive this business , is this evidence against these defendants ? i ask my brother maynard . mr. serj. maynard , my lord , if this were single clearly it were no evidence , but if it fall out in the evidence , that we shall prove osborne , knox , and lane were all in the conspiracy , though it is not direct evidence to convict the other , yet it will inlighten that evidence we give against them . lord chief iust. why did you not make osborne a party ? mr. serjeant maynard , he is laid in the indictment to joyn with them , but he is run away . mr. iustice pemberton , my brother intends it thus , that the business is so interwoven between them all , that to make it be understood , it is necessary to bring in something about osborne . mr. sanders , i pray they may bring something against them first . lord chief iust. ay , the counsel say very well on the other side ; first prove some fact against knox and lane , and then prove what you will afterwards . mr. serjeant maynard , it is an inducement to it , but i beseech you , in all cases that are capital , are not the king's counsel at liberty to prove circumstances as well as the substance ? lord chief iust. the court will direct it is no evidence against the now defendants , unless you prove the fact upon them . mr. serj. maynard , unless we do bring it down to knox and lane afterwards , that they were guilty , it will not be any evidence i know . mr. holt , if it be not evidence , we conceive with submission to your lordship , it ought not to be heard . lord chief iust. prove something first , brother , against the defendants , and then urge this . mr. recorder , they need not labour it on the other side , we shall . we agree it is no evidence against the defendants , but only circumstantial as of the general conspiracy . l. c. iust. but pray how can it be circumstantial evidence and yet no evidence ? prove the conspiracy or it signifies nothing . mr. serj. maynard , if it be circumstantial to make good the evidence of the fact , it will be material for us to urge it . l. c. iust. but first prove the fact . mr. recorder , we shall now prove , if your lordship please , that knox , who is one of the persons indicted , hath made his applications to others that had relation to dr. oates , to endeavour to perswade them to pick out something or other against dr. oates . call thurston and ray. mr. serj. maynard , my lord , we shall first go to the substance of the evidence , and then the circumstantial thing will be material which before were not material . l. c. iust. now you go right brother . mr. serj. maynard , we shall go this way , to shew that lane and osborne did accuse dr. oates , and after they had accused him , they were convicted in their own consciences , and did confess they had falsely accused him , and afterward did repent of that repentance , and that knox had an hand in all this . l. c. iust. i think you have not opened that clear enough ; before whom was that accusation ? mr. serj. maynard , before the lords , and before sir william waller . mr. recorder , for they were in the gatehouse , and there they sent for sir william waller to come to them , and there did confess the matter to him , whom we desire may be sworn . which was done accordingly . sir william waller , my lord , upon the . of april , during the sessions of parliament , there was a committee of lords appointed for the taking instructions about this plot ; being there attending upon the lords , this complaint of mr. oates was brought before them , of the horrid abuse of two of his servants . and the lords were pleased to order mr. warcup and my self to take their examinations . l. c. iust. what two servants were they ? sir william waller , they did belong to dr. oates . l. c. iust. vvhat were their names ? sir william waller , osborne and lane. l. c. iust. vvhat found you upon their examination ? sir william waller , upon the examination of osborne and lane , i did find they did agree together to a tittle . l. c. i. then tell us lane's evidence first . if they agreed in a tittle , tell it us what it was . sir w. waller . my lord , mr. lane did confess this . l. c. i. what , upon his oath ? sir w. waller . yes , upon his oath , my lord. l. c. i. to you ? sir w. waller . yes , my lord , that he had been induced by mr. knox to betray his master , and for to swear several things against him which knox had drawn up , and dictated to him . he did not write them himself , but osborne writ them , and he did sign them . there were four letters that were brought before us , there were three or four memorials , as they called them , three or four informations , which were those papers that they carryed to mr. cheyney to chelsey . l. c. i. who carryed them ? sir w. waller . knox took osborne and lane with him , and carryed them thither , as lane swore . and when they came thither , and he was acquainted with the business , he looked upon it as so foul and notorious a thing , that he would not meddle with it : but he advised them that they should go ( because knox pretended the lord of danby was much concerned in it ) to some other justice of peace , or some of the privy council that were friends of my lord of danby . l. c. i. knox advised this , did he ? sir w. waller . no , they said mr. cheyney did . they went afterwards ( and they did all confess it ) to mr. dewy , and m. dewy gave them the same answer , that he could not meddle with it ; and after this , mr. knox went and took several lodgings for them , fearing that dr. oates would hunt after them ; and one lodging , amongst others , was i think the three flower-de-luces in white-fryers . and afterwards they removed to a place in the paved alley , betwixt lincolns-inn fields and chancery-lane . during which time , knox did bid them stand firm to what they were to do , and they should not want for a considerable reward ; and have wherewithal to maintain them with their footmen , and live very well . and , my lord , lane did confess this , that he brought mr. osborne to knox first into the painted chamber , and made them acquainted there . and , my lord , there is one thing that i omitted ; mr. lane did confess to me , that mr. knox did at the one-tun-tavern , i think it was , drop a guinney upon the table , and said , i will not give it you , because now i can safely swear that i never gave you any money ; but be sure you stand fast to these informations , and to what i have dictated to you , and you may be sure you shall be well rewarded for your pains . and he told them this more , my lord treasurer would never have surrendred himself to the black rod , unless you had promised to stand fast to this evidence ; that was to swear to what evidence he had dictated to them . l. c. i. did lane produce the informations , and those things that knox tempted him to swear ? sir w. waller . my lord , they were produced before us . l. c. i. what were they ? what was the substance of them ? sir w. waller . one part was to swear , that m. bedloe should come to mr. oates , and say to him , that my lord of danby should offer him a considerable sum of money to go beyond sea. l. c. i. to whom ? sir w. waller . to bedloe . and that was only considerable as relating to mr. bedloe in any part of the examination : but as to mr. oates , they were to accuse him of having a design of abusing his body : for he sent to me — l. c. i. who did ? sir w. waller . lane sent twice . upon his first examination he did seem to be very shy : but upon the second , he sent one rix to me , one of the yeomen of the guard , to let me know , that he was troubled in his conscience at what he had unjustly done in charging mr. oates , and that he was desirous to discharge his conscience of the burden that lay on it , and to wave his own reputation , that he might acquit the innocent . l. c. i. why , where was the villany done that he repented of ? sir w. waller . my lord , it was in reference to his swearing against dr. oates . l. c. i. where ? before the lords ? sir w. waller . he was brought that very morning before the lords ; but notice being come that the king was come in , and the house was sitting , he was remanded , and afterwards sent rix to me , to tell me , he was sensible of the injury he had done to dr. oates , and would make a confession of all . l. c. i. where had he done him injury ? sir w. waller . in reference to those abuses that he had offered to swear , and i think had sworn , but before whom i don't know . i suppose you will have an account of that by and by . l. c. i. so then , this is the substance of what you say as to mr. oates , that lane sent to you , and shewed you several papers and informations against the credit of oates and bedloe , and told you that knox did tempt him to justifie this , and swear it ; and that he went with them to a justice of peace in order to do it , but he did not care to meddle with it , and bid them apply themselves elsewhere , and afterwards they came to you ; and whether it was sworn or no , you cannot tell , but you say he did confess he had wrong'd mr. oates in those scandals that he would have put upon him ; and that this was by knox's advice and direction . sir w. waller . but there is this thing further , he said truly that mr. oates would be something hasty and passionate , but that he was very religious , and was very constant in sending his servants to prayers ; and that what he had accused him of , it was an abominable falshood , and was done by the instigation of knox , who had incouraged him to it by the promises of a great reward . mr. iust. pemberton . and it was he that told you of the dropping of the guinney , was it not ? sir w. waller . my lord , he did confess that himself , but he said he lent it . sir fr. winnington . pray did lane confess to you from whom this money and reward was to be had ? for he was not a person that was likely to bestow so much money of his own . was it from any of the conspirators ? or from whom that the rewards , and this money should come , upon your oath ? sir vv. vvaller . i have examined them many times as to that , but could never learn any thing . mr. iustice pemberton . sir vvilliam vvaller , was knox ever before you ? sir vv. vvaller . yes , my lord , i took his examination , and it was only to excuse himself , that he received the letters from them , which they said they writ out of trouble of conscience , and would have him to take their examinations , and to go along with them before a justice of peace . l. c. i. that was knox's defence ? said he , they came to me , and i did not go to them , but they desired me to go along with them to a justice of peace . mr. iustice pemberton . did you let him know what they had said to you ? sir w. waller . no , my lord , i kept that private ; but there is one thing very material . that morning we took knox's examination , we were so long about it , that we could not dispatch it in the forenoon , and therefore ordered lane to be brought before us in the afternoon ; and then did knox write a note , and sent it up by a woman that was a nurse there in the prison , and there was a paper conveyed through the door to him to this purpose , we paid our — l. c. i. who writ that note ? sir w. waller . knox did , and confessed it to me . l. c. i. to whom was it convey'd ? sir w. waller . to mr. osborne from knox. and it was , we always paid our club — mr. sanders . how do you know it was from knox ? sir w. waller . he confessed it . mr. sanders . did he shew it you ? sir w. waller . no , i did not see the note , but he confessed it . mr. iust. pemberton . pray mr. sanders don't interrupt them , they are in their evidence . mr. serj. maynard . they must do that , for that is the best part of their defence for ought i know . sir w. waller . the words my lord were these , we always club'd , and you paid two shillings at the sugar-loaf . tear this . l. c. i why , what could this be ? sir w waller . why , i will tell you my lord , it was upon this account , that he should not gainsay what he had confessed and agreed to , that so they might not be in two stories . mr. serj. maynard . my lord , osborne and lane had formerly accused , and given some informations against dr. oats , afterwards you see what happened before sir w. waller , they renounce what they had done , and then my lord , was knox imprisoned , and thereupon he writes this note , we always club'd together , and you paid two shillings at such a place : the circumstances will come out by and by , they met at several places , and we shall prove that knox bore their charges , and paid for them , though by this note he would make it , that they bore their own charges . m. iust. pemberton . the succeeding evidence will open it . sir w. waller . my lord , here is one thing more that i had forgot , lane did confess , that for the preventing of any discovery of this horrid fact , it was agreed amongst them , that if any one should make a discovery of it , the other two should murder him . m. solicit . gen. we desire that the jury may observe that . sir w. waller . he did likewise declare , that the lords in the tower , would not be wanting to acknowledge the kindness in disparaging the kings evidence . mr. iust. pemberton . that was lane and osborne did confess that ? sir w. waller . yes , both lane and osborne swore it positively . sir fr. winn. if you have done as to lane , pray acquaint my lord and the jury , what you know of the confession of knox upon his examination . sir w. waller . knox confessed not any thing , but stood stiff to it , that the papers and letters were written by them , and contrived by them . m. iust. pemberton . and that what he did was at their request ? sir w. waller . yes , but the rest did both confess , that what was done was wholly by the contrivance of knox. l. c. i. did you ask knox if he had dropt a guinny ? sir w. waller . my lord , he confess'd he had dropt a guinny , but it was only to lend them , and they promised to repay him ; and that one morning he dropt , s. upon the bed , and they took it up . l. c. i. knox said he only lent it ? sir w. waller . yes , but they positively swore both the one and the other . m. iust. pemberton . what said knox to that ? sir w. waller . he lent them only . l c i. well , go on sir , sir w. waller . and lane did positively confess , that at all the places , and the several lodgings , and the treaties and entertainments they had been at , they were all at knox's charge , except twice which might amount to about d. and that he paid . l c. i. what said knox to it ? sir w. waller . he denied all . mr. iust. pemberton . as to the manner of it , what said knox to the dropping of it ? sir w. waller . he confess'd he dropt it , but only lent it them . sir fr. winn. you say lane was a servant to dr. oates , pray whose servant was knox ? sir w. waller . he did belong to my lord dunblane . and moreover m. knox did confess to me , that the papers so drawn up and delivered into his hands had been in the custody of my lord latimer for a long time . sir fr. winn. did he so , i hope the jury will believe him then . l. c. i. sir w. waller does swear , that knox confessed that all those scandals raised against dr. oats , had been by his hands delivered into the hands of my lord latimer , and were there for some time . sir w. waller . yes , my lord. sir fr. winn. i did not well hear you sir , one thing , you were saying in the beginning of your evidence , that these gentlemen spoke of my lord of danby's not surrendring himself , pray let us hear that over again . sir w. waller . mr. lane said this , that my lord of danby would not have surrendred himself to the black rod , but that he did depend upon their standing to what informations they had given in . l. c. i. upon your oath lane did say this ? sir w. waller . yes , my lord. mr. serj. maynard . my lord , now we will call another justice of peace , that took their examinations , and we shall then particularly apply our selves to mr. knox , that seems to make these excuses for himself . call mr. justice warcup . who was sworn . mr. warcup . i must beg the favour of the court , because my memory is bad , that i may refer to the informations that were taken before me . m. iust. pemberton . you may look upon them for the refreshment of your memory . mr. warcup . i answer to every part of this that hath my hand to it , i desire it may be read . mr. recorder . no that can't be , you must not read them , but only refresh your memory by them . mr. warcup . this iohn lane did confess he lived with dr. oats , and about the th . of april he left him , and while he lived with him , he said , he sent his servants dayly to prayer in the morning to the chappel , and left but one at home to dress him , and whilst he was with dr. oats , he was never charged by his master with the opening of any letters , and that the informations marked , , , & . — mr. williams . pray sir acquaint the court as far as you can by your memory . mr. warcup . lane my lord , before me deny'd all that he had said , that is , that what he had said before the lords was true , but that particular examination before sir vv. vvaller was by him alone . sir fr. vvinn . was he upon oath before you ? mr. vvarcup . yes , i find he was . l. c. i. did you examine him after sir vv. vvaller , or before ? mr. vvarcup . to the best of my remembrance it was before . mr. iust. iones . he was upon his oath there too ? mr. vvarcup . yes , and i must acquaint you i find it at the bottom to be ( iurat . ) he was brought before the lords of the committee for examinations , and did there likewise at first swear the things in these notes contained , and did afterwards come to the said committee , and beg their pardon , and gods pardon for what he had sworn , for it was false . l. c. i. who did ? mr. warcup . lane did . l. c. i. did you hear him ? mr. vvarcup . yes . mr. iust. iones . was he upon his oath the last time , when he said this to the committee ? sir vv. vvaller . yes my lord , i was by too , i heard him . l. c. i. so he swears backwards and forwards . sir fr. vvinn . such people use to do so . mr. vvarcup . that particular of the note , that mr. knox sent up by the nurse , i was by and did hear him confess it . sir vv. vvaller . but he did declare there to the committee , that it was his voluntary repentance , and that he was exceeding sensible of the abuses he had offered to dr. oats , in this design of accusing him in such a manner . mr. iust. iones . what , before the lords ? sir w. vvaller . yes my lord. mr. warcup . mr. knox did say he sent such a note up to osborne , and that the words were as i remember , we always club'd , and you paid two shillings at the sugar-loaf , tear this . l. c. i. look you , the use i see that would be made of this , is , that knox in a secret way , should give intimation to this osborne , that he should not own that he had been treated by him , or any money spent upon him , and this note is the cunning way of insinuating that matter , as i understand it . mr. warcup . i shall humbly acquaint your lordship with one thing further ; knox did confess that he had lain with these people in several private places , for there were warrants out for the apprehending them , upon the information given by dr. oats of this contrivance , that he had lain with them at white fryars , and charing cross , and at other places . mr. iust. pemberton . that he had obscured them when they were in danger . mr. warcup . that he had layn with them at that time . sir fran. win. pray , upon your oath , when he had told you he had layn with them in any private lodging — mr. iust. pemb. did he say he had advised them where to lie ? mr. warcup . he said he had been with them , and advised them where to lie . mr. iust. pemb. did he say he had taken lodgings for them ? mr. warcup . yes , he did . sir. fr. win. your question , sir , hath prevented mine ; but i would ask him a question further . did he confess to you he paid for those lodgings ? mr. warcup . truly , my lord , unless i read the information , i cannot tell . sir will. waller . my lord , i perfectly remember this , that knox did confess he had paid for their lodgings , but they were to pay him again ; but both osborne and lane did positively swear he did pay for all , and several times at several taverns where he treated them , he bid them call for what they would , and they should have it . mr. soll. gen. what do you know of being at the sugar-loaf at any time ? mr. warcup . i tell you what i find here he confess'd , that they complaining they knew not where conveniently to lodge , this examinant told them he would endeavour to find them a lodging , and the very self-same day , he went by the direction of one of my lord dunblain's servants , a coach-man to the sugar-loaf in white-fryers & took lodgings as for himself & two of his friends , and lay there with them to the time of his going from the same lodging , which was five or six days . mr. iust. pemb. and he did it by the direction of my lord dunblain's coach-man ? mr. warcup . yes , my lord , it is so in the information . mr. serj. maynard . is that information true ? mr. warcup . yes , my lord , i am sure he said it , or i should not have writ it down . lord chief iust. mr. warcup , had lane recanted what he had said against mr. oates at that time when the lodgings were taken ? mr. warcup . my lord , it was before they came to the lords that they took these lodgings . mr. iust. pemb. ay , that 's clear , it was before all came out . mr. warcup . i was commanded by the house of peers to give my warrant for the apprehending of them . lord chief iust. the lords sent to apprehend th●m upon the slander of mr. oates , and then he concealed them . mr. recorder . my lord , sir william waller speaks of one rix that was sent by lane to him to make a discovery , this is the gentleman . who was sworn . rix. may it please your lordship , there was one osborne that was concerned with this lane , who is since run away : osborne came first upon the guard to me , and desired me to get him into service . he desired to come into my lord treasurers service , and what he desired of me was to frame him a petition to my lord treasurer . we had no answer till two days after , and i being upon the guard with dr. oates , i did suppose i might get him into his service , i spoke to dr. oates , and he entertain'd him ; and after he had entertain'd him a while , this lane then being a servant with him , they both told me they were going off now from mr. oates . lord chief iust. who told you ? rix. lane and osborne , and that they should get preferment ; they were sworn brothers together , if one did go the other would go . i asked them why they would go away ; oh , said he , i shall keep my man my self . say you so , said i , i have been in town so long , and i could get no such preferment . then they told me they should have l. a year , and l. in money . mr. iust. pemb. who told you so ? rix. osborne and lane both . mr. iust. pemb. what , l. a year , and l. a piece . rix. yes : so i asked them how , but they would not tell me , but , said osborne to me , for your preferring me to mr. oates , you shall be no loser . i met him another time , for osborne came to desire me to lend him a cravat . said he , i must come down to your house to morrow morning to get a cravat , i desire i may have a good one , for i am to go before one of the greatest peers of the realm , to dine with him : where , said i , to which end of the town ? the other end of the town , said he to me : but , said i , why do you leave mr. oates ? oh , said he , let mr. oates look to himself , for i have enough against him . then i smelt something of some design against dr. oates , and brought it before justice warcup , and gave in my testimony , and upon further inquiry into it , the lords ordered him to send out his warrant for the taking of those fellows , knox , lane , and osborne , which he assigned over to me ; in a short time after they were taken , first lane was taken , and in a day or two osborne and knox , and were examined and taxed with it . osborne he made a confession before justice warcup , and they desired me to see knox and lane in prison , and i did see them in prison , and when they did come there , knox said , where is osborne , why don't he come to prison as well as i ? i am a better gentleman than he . oh , said i , he hath confessed ; so he was turned up into the prison . said i to mr. lane , will you drink a pot of beer ? said he , i don't much care if i do : and , said he , mr. rix , if i have not gone too far against my self , if you will stand my friend , i will make an honest confession . said i , i am glad there is so much grace in you , i will then do you all the good i can . pray , said he , will you please to go and call sir william waller : why not justice warcup , said i , who was first concerned in this discovery : no , he would have only sir william waller . i came and found him in the court of requests , so i went with him to smiths the tobacconist near the gate , and sent for lane ; the keeper brought him : i think this was about nine or ten in the morning , and from that time till about six at night he was in examination . i went then to mr. oates , and told him lane had made an honest confession . i waited on sir william waller till the afternoon , and then he made an order , that he having made an honest confession , should have the enlargement of the prison , and not be confined , as others were , which he had . lane sent for me the next day , i came down in a day or two after , and his sister was there with him , they were eating butter and radishes , and when i would have paid for the drink , lane cry'd no , by no means ; for knox hath sent me in three and twenty shillings the other day , and that will serve me , i hope , till i come out : but now , said he , i have made a confession , i believe i shall have no more money from him ; and i desire you would speak for my enlargement . i came down to him another time , and he told me he had received a note , which note was put up from a gentlewoman in the street , that if he would stand firm to his text , he should have five hundred pounds ; nay , he should not want one thousand pounds ; but in case they would not stand firm to their text , the lord treasurer would never have come in ; and if yet they did not stand firm , he would lose his head. lord chief iust. who came that note from ? sir will. waller . he told me this , that there was such word brought to him by the nurse , and she told him , that a gentlewoman very well clad came to her , and desired her to speak to him to stand fast , and that osborne and knox would be sure to stand fast , and that they two should be too strong for the other , he being but a single evidence ; and more than that , he should not want a thousand pound , if he had occasion for it . i asked the nurse what the gentlewomans name was , she told me , she had asked , but she would not tell her . lord chief iust. where is this woman ? this nurse ? sir will. waller . she was nurse to the gaol , and was turned out upon this discovery by the gaoler . mr. iust. pemberton . you had this from lane sir william waller . sir william waller . yes . rix. my lord , after this was done , lane's father and mother told me this at my own house , that had it not been upon their sons account , my lord treasurer would never have come in ; and they told me that one hest should come and tell them so : and lane himself told me , he thanked god that now he had made an honest confession , that now his heart was very light , he had a burden upon him before , but now he had confessed , and his heart was light . lord chief iust. what did he confess ? rix. he did confess , that my lord treasurer would never have surrendred himself , if he had thought they would not have stood firm , and if they did not stand firm , he should lose his head , mr. williams . you say lane confessed this as of himself ? rix. yes , and afterwards his father and mother told me so , and he did say as of himself , that he had a note put under the door . l. c. i. but from whom had he that note ? rix. from a gentlewoman in the street , he told me so . mr. iustice pemberton . what did he say as to knox ? rix. he told me he was set on by knox , and he drew up all the writings for him ; and knox told him , if you come to be examined at such or such a thing , make a stop , and turn this way and that way . mr. williams . pray acquaint the court and the jury , did lane tell you how he was drawn into this , and who drew him in ? rix. knox was the man that drew up the writings , and promised him those rewards he said . m. iustice pemberton . you say he told you that knox promised them ? how far knox will be concerned in this evidence , will be considered afterwards . mr. serjeant maynard . now we come to knox's own particular actings . what hath been said already , hath been out of other peoples mouths , now we come to him himself , and we call richard slightam . ( who was sworn . ) mr. att. gen. pray mr. slightam will you tell my lord and the jury what you know of this knox , what offers have been made you , by whom , and when , and for what ? slightam . i was offered money to carry notes from the one to the other . mr. sol. gen. why , what office had you there ? slightam . i was a prisoner there my self , and under-goaler too , and i was offered money to carry notes between the one and the other , that they might not betray one another . mr. recorder . by whom ? slightam . by knox l. c. i. what did they offer you ? slightam . i had three half crowns given me at one time by knox , and he promised me he would give me a considerable sum . l. c. i. but he did not name the sum ? slightam . no. l. c. i. what did he desire you to do for that money ? slightam . he desired me to carry notes from the one to the other , that they might not betray one another . mr. att. gen. between whom ? name them . slightam . knox , lane , and osborne . l. c. i. what did you say , that they might not betray one another ? why ? slightam . yes , that they might not betray one another , for they were fearful that they should , because they could not speak together , to lay their stories together . mr. at. gen. and hark you sir , what messages did you carry between them ? sligtham . none , i never carryed any . l. c. i no , what had you your money for ? slightam . i told them of it below , and they would not let me carry any . l. c. i. but you got your money ? slightam . yes , i got some money . mr. att. gen. knox you say gave you the three half crowns . did you speak with lane and osborne ? slightam . lane i spoke with every day , and lane said , he hoped that the lords would not put him in the pillory , for all he had sworn falsely . l. c. i. what lords ? slightam . my lord shaftesbury , and my lord privy-seal . mr. smith . what did knox say to you after osborne had confessed ? slightam . that is nothing , said he , if we do but stand firm together , what osborne hath given in evidence will signifie nothing . mr. smith . why ? slightam . for two , he said , were better than one . sir fra. winn. i think you say you had three half crowns given you by knox , pray who was the first that offered you money to carry the notes ? slightam . it was knox. sir fra. winn. ay , he carried the purse . slightam . yes , i suppose he did . mr. iust. iones . they were both in the gate-house prisoners at that time . slightam . yes , so was i. but they were lock'd in several rooms , and none could come at them . l. c. i. but you carried no note nor messages , upon your oath ? slightam . no. mr. williams . pray call mr. dewy , ( who was sworn . ) pray mr. dewy will you acquaint the court and the jury , what discourse you had with knox , who he came from , what he came about , and what recommendations he brought with him , and from whom . mr. dewy . my lord , sometime in the sitting of the last parliament that began in march , about ten a clock at night a message was sent in to me that one would speak with me from my lord latimer : i was either in bed or going to bed ; and i did not think there was really any such message , because my lord latimer did not know me , nor i him . they were very pressing to come in , insomuch as my man could hardly keep them out . i told them there was nothing sure of so much haste , but what might be done to morrow , or some other time : so i spoke not with them that night . either the next day , or some short time after , as i remember , mr. knox came to me with another gentleman , and he brought papers in his hands ready written ; he told me that they were informations of one lane and osborne ( as i remember those were the names he mentioned then ) and they were against mr. oates . then i began to look upon it as something extraordinary , the parliament being then sitting , and the committee of each house having the examination of this business . said i , mr. knox , you have been a justice of peace's clerk ( for i knew him so ) and you know 't is very unusual to take informations against a person without the parties being present , if he may be had to cross-examine the witnesses upon interrogatories , as the case may be : and besides , this looks as if it were to take informations against the king ; which we never do upon oath . so i dismissed them , and directed them to the committee of secrecy of the house of commons , for whom it was most proper . this is all i know of this business . mr. williams . did mr. knox tell you any thing what was contained in those examinations ? mr. dewy . yes , he did give me some information , that osborne and lane did repent of something , but i can't give you information particularly . mr. williams . pray tell the substance of it . mr. dewy . i can't remember what the particulars were , but lane and osborne were the parties to be examined , and i shifted them off as well as i could . l. c. i. did they come along with knox ? mr. dewy . they were not in my room , but they were without , i believe . l. c. i. and did he tell you at the same time that they had recanted ? mr. dewy . truely , my lord , i can't well remember ; but he said they repented of what they had falsely accused my lord treasurer of . l.c.i. did they say they had falsely accused mr. oates ? mr. dewy . no , they did charge mr. oates with some crime ; and they did speak something of false accusing , i can't remember what . l.c.i. did not they say , mr. oates ? mr. dewy . i remember it now ; it was as if mr. bedloe and mr. oates had made a conspiracy against my lord of danby . sir fr. win. i think you say , you knew mr. knox a justice of peace's clerk : pray sir , you are an ingenuous man , from whom did he pretend to come to you ? mr. dewy . he came to me from my lord latimer , as he said . sir fr. win. did he say so , that the lord latimer wished him to go to you ? mr. dewy . yes ; and i wondered at it , because i did not know my lord , nor my lord me . mr. withins . when was this ? mr. dewy . it was the latter end of april , or the beginning of may , as i take it ; i do not very well remember : but the substance of it i remember was , that they had over-heard mr. oates and mr. bedloe conspiring against my lord of danby . l.c.i. mr. dewy , can you remember whether they did come to give you information against mr. oates for abusing their bodies , or oates and bedloe's conspiracy against the earl of danby ? mr. dewy . truely , my lord , i can't be positive in it ; for the parliament was then sitting , and i shifted them off . mr. iust. pemb. you never looked into the information at all ? mr. dewy . no , i did not , i thought it not proper for me . mr. recorder . call henry wiggins and his mother : ( who were both sworn . ) mr. att. gen. come on mr. wiggins , what do you know of any endeavours of knox or lane , or any of these persons , to take off or scandalize mr. oates or mr. bedloes testimony ? l. c. i. what is this mans name ? mr. att. gen. henry wiggins . wiggins . about the latter end of february last , mr. knox and i met at charing-cross , and we went in and drank together ; and he proposed several things to me ; first he desired that i would get for him a copy of the papers my master had . l. c. i. who is your master ? wiggins . mr. bedloe . and especially what concerned my lord treasurer ; as also to take a journal of all my masters actions , and the names of the persons that came to him ; for , said he , my lord hears that my lord of shaftesbury and the duke of buckingham do cabal with him against my lord. but if my lord could but find out his enemies , he would oppose them , and strive to baffle them . my lord , to encourage me to this , he told me he would carry me to his lord , though it were at mid-night , to discourse with him . l. c. i. what lord ? wiggins . my lord treasurer : and he said he should give me incouragement to go on . said i , does my lord know of this ? yes , said he , i told my lord i had a friend lived with mr. bedloe , and he gave me incouragement to go on and treat with him . and he said moreover , my lord , mr. oates and bedloe were two great rogues ; that the king believed not a word they said ; and as soon as he had heard all they could say , they should be hanged . mr. williams . pray did he propose any reward to you ? wiggins . he told me his lord should give me encouragement . l. c. i. what should you do ? wiggins . he desired me to give my lord the papers , and then my lord should tell me what i should do about my master . sir fra. winn. what did he say of oates and bedloe , sir ? wiggins . he said , that oates and bedloe were great rogues , and that the king knew them to be so ; and when he had heard what they could say , he would hang them . mr. williams . pray upon your oath , did he offer you any money , or any reward ? wiggins . he offered me not any particular sum , but he told me i should have satisfaction and reward , or any place in my lords disposal i should be entertained into , if i went away upon this business . mr. williams . did he say any thing to you , to invite you , or incourage you to swear against your master ? wiggins . no , but he told me my lord should give me directions how to go on . mr. recorder . what say you as to lane and osborne ? wiggins . i did not know them at that time . mr. recorder . what time after was it that you did know them ? wiggins . i met with them a little while after , and they were discoursing all together , but i had no discourse with them . mr. recorder . did knox at any time speak to you , to bring him into the company of lane and osborne ? wiggins . no , sir. mr. recorder . this was the first time you met with him about this matter ? wiggins . yes , it was . l. c. i. what did you promise knox you would do ? wiggins . i told him i would do him any service that lay in my power , but nothing that would be to my masters prejudice ; and i was appointed by him to meet him at my lord treasurers . l. c. i. and what other meetings had you besides ? vviggins . i was but twice with him . l. c. i. you never agreed to any thing ? vviggins . i told it my master , and it was discovered soon after , so that the lords came to hear it . mr. att. gen. where is mrs. vviggins ? what do you know of any endeavours to corrupt this evidence ? mrs. vviggins . i know no more than what my son knows ; he first came to my house . l. c. i. who ? mrs. wiggins . mr. knox ; and asking me where my son was , i told him he lived with mr. bedloe : and he said , he very much rejoyced at it , and desired to speak with him . i told him , no , he could not , for his master had so much employment for him , that it was very seldom i my self could get a sight of him . said he , i have a little concern with him ; and he living with mr. bedloe , may do my lord treasurer great service ; and doing my lord treasurer service , he does his majesty service ; for his majesty loves my lord treasurer above all things in the world . and he would not be contradicted , but he would see him . then the next day i told him he should come , and we appointed to go to him ; but he should not see him alone without me , i told him ; he told me he desired it not . he came according to the appointment , and i carried him to charing-cross to an ale-house , and there i sent a porter for my son , and he came : and the first thing he said to him was , i am mighty joyful to know you live with mr. bedloe ; you may do my lord great service : in what , says my son ? in letting my lord know what company your master keeps , and what lords they are that dayly and hourly keep company with your master , and cabal against my lord. said i , mr. knox , that is the way to bring my son's neck to the stake ; that he shall never do . but , says he , i will tell him a way how he shall do himself no harm at all : and then he up and told him , he desired him to write him letters when he found any thing of secrecy , and set no name to it ; and if he came at twelve a clock at night , he would let him in to my lord treasurer's , and no body should take notice of it : and he would have had him taken a coach to have gone to my lady danby presently , to have an assurance from her mouth of encouragement , and that he should have any place in her lords disposal . l. c. i. were you ever with my lady danby ? mrs. wiggins . no , we deni'd it ; and it was discovered . and besides , my lord , i told him , if he would lay down my son a thousand pound he should not do it ; he should not betray his trust. and then he said , that the king knew mr. oates and mr. bedloe to be two great rogues ; and when he had got what he could out of them , he would hang them . mr. williams . have you had any offers of late not to come here as a witness in this case ? mrs. wiggins . no , my lord ; but there have been persons three times at my house to know whether i were subpoena'd yea or no , as from mr. knox. mr. williams . did ever any body perswade you not to come to give evidence ? mrs. wiggins . no. l. c. i. when was this you speak of ? mrs. wiggins . in february , the latter end . mr. serj. maynard . mr. dewy , who came in company with mr. knox to you ? mr. dewy . one mr. blayden . mr. serj. maynard . who is that ? mr. dewy . steward to my lord of danby , i think . mr. serj. maynard . here is slightam again , my lord. mr. att. gen. what have you to say more ? slightam . mr. lane told me they had many treats , and had so much money , a guiney , as i think he told me , to swear against mr. oates . l. c. i. who gave it him ? slightam . mr. osborne , or mr. knox , i can't tell which . l. c. i. where did lane tell you so ? slightam . in prison . l. c. i. in what prison ? slightam . in the gatehouse . mr. williams . call mr. palmer . ( who was sworn . ) we call him to corroborate what that young man vviggins hath said . mr. palmer . what he hath told here , he discovered first to me , and i discovered to his master , that mr. knox would have had him to take a journal of his masters actions , and to give it him every day . my lord , i am one of the yeomen of the guard , and i waited upon mr. bedloe , and he desired me to help him to a clerk : i helped him to vviggins , this young man. he had not been there three weeks , or a very little time , when knox came to him to tempt him ; and being a stranger to his master , he knew not how to discover it to him , and told me , such a thing is offered to me , but i am a stranger to my master , and i know not how to break it to him . l. c. i. the use you make of this , is no more , but onely to corroborate what he hath said , that he told it him while it was fresh , and that it is now new matter of his invention now . mr. recorder . it is very right , my lord , that is the use we make of it . call thomas dangerfield . ( who was sworn . ) mr. vvilliams . pray , sir , give an account what you know concerning mr. knox and mr. lane , and what designs they have had against mr. oates , and who supported them and maintained them in it . mr. dangerfield . my lord , all that i have to say in this case , is this : i do think it was in the month of iune i was at my lord castlemains , and he asked me , if i had been imployed in a business of knox and lane , that were prisone●● at the gatehouse : i told him , not. his lordship then wrote a letter to my lady powis , and desired i might be imployed in it : and she did tell me that it was a thing of material consequence , and that i should be furnished with money for the getting of knox and lane out . i took all opportunities for the doing of it that were necessary . i went to the gate-house , made enquiry after lane , and took care with his mother to relieve him , for i heard he was in an indigent condition at that time . l. ch. iust. did you give his mother the money ? mr. dangerfield . yes , my lord , twenty shillings , and i had that money from mrs. cellier by my lady powis's order . after that time there was one mrs. airy , who used to carry money to the catholicks in prison , she said that it was possible , as she had been informed from some of the priests in the gate-house , that some things might be had under the hands of knox and lane that would be very material against mr. oates : she said she had been informed so . i then desired that mrs. airy that pen and ink might be conveyed to them , that they might have the convenience of giving it under their hands , which she promised , and they did convey pen and ink under the door to this mr. lane. l. ch. iust. how do you know that ? mr. dangerfield . as mrs. airy told me . then she came again , and withal told me , that it was mr. knox's desire that lane should do something to signifie to him , or satisfie him that he did stand fast , then lane wrote a little note , and that note was to this effect . i will die before i will comply with that villain oates , and if any good people will do me the kindness to get me my liberty , i will do the catholicks the greatest service imaginable in discovering what i know about mr. oates . this i write from the bottom of my heart , and shall die in it . so help me god. l. ch. iust. how came you by the note ? mr. dangerfield . this note was written by lane's own hand , and given from under the door to one mr. parsons a priest in the gate-house . this parsons ga●● the note to mrs. airy , and she gave it to me . l. ch. iust. do you know lane's hand ? mr. dangerfield . yes , very well , as i shall shew you anon . l. ch. iust. what became of the note ? mr. dangerfield . my lord , i don't know what became of the note , for the countess of powis had it afterwards . l. ch. iust. do you believe it was of lane's own writing ? mr. dangerfield . i am very well satisfied of it my lord , according to the judgment i am capable to give of hands ; indeed i was not acquainted with his hand then , but that was the first to my knowledge , that ever i saw of it ; but after i having parted with the note , and seeing some of his hand-writing , upon recollection i can say i believe it was his own hand . l. ch. iust. did you ever see the note again ? mr. dangerfield . never afterwards . and then my lord , my lady powis was exceeding glad upon the hearing of it , and as i was informed of it afterwards , she was the greatest part of the following day upon her knees , giving god thanks for the great advantage , and strength that was come to their cause . l. ch. iust. what! for having a villain to come over to her side , that swore backwards and forwards ? mr. dangerfield . afterwards i received money several times , and gave his mother more to furnish and relieve him . and several times afterwards i received money from mrs. cellier by order of my lady powis for the doing of lane's business , that is , for his liberty ; and i had the papers from one lawson an attorney , that had been employed in the same business before ; and as i was informed by him , a motion or two was made at this bar for their liberty , but however he began to despair of it , and i was to undertake it ; but withal he said , he was glad he was rid of it , for he had been often employed in the business of the catholicks , and it had impaired his credit very much , and very freely delivered the papers to me , which indeed were not many . after that , my lord , i retained mr. sanders , as i think it was he , but there was a motion about it , and with great difficulty i did get lane out upon common bail ; and when i had done so , according to my lady powis's order , i brought him to powis house ; and then my lady powis ordered , that he should go by the name of iohnson ; because if any of the servants should talk of one lane being in the house , it might come to oates's ear , the house might be search'd , and if he were found there , it might be prejudicial to the lords , and all their business . and then , my lord , mr. wood came a little after with the same command from his lord , and he had some order — l. ch. iust. who is wood ? mr. dangerfield , that wood is my lady powis's gentleman : and he came and ordered that my lady powis gave particular command to the porter of the house , in my hearing , that he should give order to all the servants , to have a particular eye and care that he did not go from the house , for they were very dubious of him , having made so many equivocations before , for they feared mr. oates might find him , or he might go voluntarily and make a discovery of himself , and so contradict all he had given an accompt of there . for , my lord , before this , as soon as ever lane was gone out , they were very desirous to have what he had to say put in writing ; but they had not opportunity then , but we let it alone to some other time . then , my lord , soon after , about three weeks or a month after ; i cannot be positive in the time , because i had a great deal of business upon my hands ; but i suppose it was about three weeks or a month after , my lord powis sent for me to the tower ; and told me he was informed that mr. oates was then making search after lane , and if he found him at his house , it would be very prejudicial to their business ; and he desired me to take care , and to send him out of the way , that mr. oates might not find him , which i did ; and thinking of several places , i could not find any so convenient as gray's in essex , by the water-side . i came to lane , and told him that he should be furnished with mony and necessaries for his journey , and , in order to it , that very day i took him and gave him a pair of shooes and ten shillings in his pocket , and sent him to gray's . i received two letters afterwards from this lane , by which letters i am very well satisfied , that that note that he wrote before that was given under the door , was his hand . so then i received a third letter ( i think ) my lord , and in the letter he told me that some person of mr. oates's acquaintance had been in that town and seen him , and he thought it was not material that he staid any longer there , and desired to be removed . so then i shewed my lady powis the letter , and i suppose my lord powis had an accompt of it also ; but i cannot be positive in that , but i had order to remove lane , and by my lady powis's means i sent down one on horseback , and he discharged some debts lane had contracted in the house , and sent him away to london ; and after his return to london , he continued three days more at my lord powis's house : at which time , he says , he was forced to lye upon the chairs , for at that time were the st. omers witnesses removed from mrs. celier's , because they were afraid of being taken up by sir william waller , who was in search for them . so having some other business , i did not send him away presently , but i had particular order to send lane into some other place : and i did advise with mrs. celier where to send him , and she said , i think it will be necessary to send him to peterly , at one mr. waites's house in buckinghamshire ; for , said she , they are catholicks , and will be sure to take a particular care of him : but i told her it would be too far ; and i would think of some place nearer ; and then i thought it would be necessary to send him to tottenham , to the white hart ; and there he stayed , i suppose , four or five days , or a week . this was after the tryal of the five jesuits , as i remember . my lord powis sent to me , and told me ; says he , i am in several doubts about this lane , and if it should be known that he is countenanced by me , or any of our people , it would not be well ; so i leave him wholly to you , do what you will with him ; but i advise you to send for him up to town , and give him ten shillings a week , to live upon . so when i was at leisure i sent for him again from tottenham , and i told him ; mr. lane , it will be very necessary that you do take some care for a livelihood about town ; it is not safe nor adviseable for you to be about powis house ; and at that time i took care he should come there no more , and that if my lord powis's servants should meet him , they should take no notice of him ; which they did perform i suppose , and as i was told . but before this , and before i sent lane into the country , the second time , as near as i can remember , knox was at liberty ; i had been endeavouring , as soon as i had got lane out of the gate-house , to get knox out also ; but i found i could not , and i left that . but i have been informed by mr. knox himself , that one mr. nevil , aliàs paine , was furnished with mony from the lords in the tower , for the getting of knox's liberty ; and this nevil himself did say , as mr. knox told me , that he did it by their order ; and from this knox , by mrs. celier's perswasion , i received several papers , which were informations against oates ; or , at least , those papers that they had drawn up before they were in custody . these papers were sent by me to the tower , and from thence to mr. nevil to enlarge upon , i suppose , as he thought fit ; and after to my lord castlemain , and afterwards they were re-sent to me by mrs. celier , who ordered me to draw up an affidavit according to those directions , and get lane sworn to the same , which i did , and took lane , and asked him , said i , mr. lane , here is an affidavit , can you swear it ; yes , said he , i can swear it , before i read it to him . l. ch. iust. i believe so . m. dangerfield . nay , said i , you know not what it is ; so i read it to him ; said i , do you know this to be a truth ; yes , said he , i do know it to be all true : said i , i will read it again to you , because you are to make oath of it , and i would not have you do any thing , but what is safe , and then we went to sir iames butler , but he was not at home then to have it sworn . l. ch. iust. what was the purport of that affidavit ? mr. dangerfield . my lord , i cannot well remember the words , but it was about accusing mr oates of sodomy . l. ch. iust. on whom ? mr. dangerfield . it was for attempting buggery on the body of this lane. l. ch. iust. that was the substance of it ? mr. dangerfield . yes , my lord : and i did take this lane to sir iames butler , and he did make affidavit that it was true : and it was left there before sir iames butler . i suppose the affidavit may be in court , or a copy of it . so my lord , after that lane being gone from powis-house , and i having no manner of converse with him more ; but only that every saturday i took care he should have his money , sometimes i went to his mother's lodgings and left it there for him , sometimes he would come to me for it : after this we were remov'd from powis-house to mrs. celliers ; but he was always certain of ten shillings a week . sometimes he would pretend that it was too little for him to live upon ; and sometimes i would give him two , or three , or four shillings more of my self ; but i had no order to do that from any body . this is all my lord , i do know of lane as i remember . mr. justice iones . what do you know of knox ? mr. dangerfield . knox first delivered to me those papers , that were sent first to the tower , and afterwards to nevil , and afterwards to my lord castlemain , and redelivered to me ; and i did deliver them again to knox , after they were inlarged upon : and i believe , after that , knox had prevailed with lane to write them in his own hand . l. ch. iust. why do you believe so ? mr. dangerfield . because being writ in a fair hand , knox told me when the papers were delivered , these are the main things that i am to work by , and these must be produced against oates , and be writ over in a fairer hand , and by that i believe he prevailed with lane to write it in his own hand . l. ch. iust. whose hand were they in ? mr. dangerfield . it was a strange hand ; i knew not , and i do not believe it was knox's hand , though indeed , i can't tell , i know it not . mr. justice iones . did knox ask you who had the perusal of those papers ? and who had made additions to them ? mr. dangerfield . no , he took the papers , and took no notice of any addition or inlargement . mr. justice pemberton . pray sir , tell the manner of the delivering of those papers . mr. dangerfield . first , by mrs. cellier's perswasion , knox delivered to me the papers , which imported the whole matter of the charge against mr. oates : these i sent to the tower by mrs. cellier's hands , from thence they were sent to nevil to be enlarged upon , from thence to my lord castlemain , who was also to inlarge upon them , and from thence they were sent to mrs. cellier again , and from her delivered to me , and i delivered them to knox again . i found by his discourse and every thing else , that mr. knox was desirous of my correspondence , but yet seemed as if he were shy of any body 's taking notice of it . said i , to mr. knox , there is one mrs. downing , that lives at lambeth over the water , where mr. oates and dr. tongue , and several other persons used to meet , where i had been informed by some of the catholicks ; by parsons , my lady powis , and several others , that mr. oates , dr. tongue , my lord of danby , and others , did meet at the almes-houses there , where the plot was contrived and formed ; for they pretended to me there was no such thing really . so , said i , if you will go with me , we will discourse with her about the matter , for i heard she talked very freely in several matters nearly concerning mr. oates , and my lord of danby , and other persons . so , as i said , i told him , if you will go along with me , i have not been there yet , i will go and discourse with her , and put down what she says in writing . then mr. knox , my brother , and my self did go over to this mrs. downing , and had much discourse with her , where she did repeat many transactions that were very agreeable to the story that i had received from my lady powis , and several other persons before . knox did seem to be very well satisfied about it , and promised to take cognizance of it , and said , it was very material , but we did not put it down in writing . i did not , i know not what he did afterwards . we promised to come again another time , but i do not remember we did ever go afterwards . but mr. knox solicited me to go with him , and some business or other did still intervene ; that is all that is remarkable of mr. knox , which i do remember at that time ; but i do remember that after we were removed from powis-house , when i was at mrs. celiers , nay i think both before and after he was often treating with mrs. celier , but i know not what was their discourse , nor was i desirous to know . but mr. knox came then to me , and began to renew his correspondence , and withall told me , that he had some likelihood of bringing osborn over to their party . said he , i find he is gone again to his master , but he shall do his business , ( meaning , as i suppose , mr. oates ) for he had , as i understood by him at that time , been tampering with osborn , but he did tell me it was osborn's voluntary act , that he did own it , and that he did go to mr. oates again only ●o do mr. knox service . my lord , some time after this , knox came to me at mrs. celiers , and told me he had done the business , expressing the greatest joy that could be . what business , said i ? osborn is come over , said he , and i have had an account from the beginning to the end of all the transactions of his master oates , and i have not only an account of it , but it is put into writing , and i took osborn before a justice of peace , and he hath made affidavit of it . when i heard this , i thought it would give great satisfaction to the lords in the tower , and desired mr. knox to let me have a copy of that affidavit . he told me , no , he thought it would not be material to let me have a copy , for by that means it might become publick and be discovered ; and , said he , i have some further design in this , mr. oates is going down to my lord lovelace's in oxfordshire , and osborn is going with him , and he hath promised me to be a spy upon his masters actions , and to give me an account of all . and this will be material , but i do not think fit to let you have a copy of the affidavit at present . some time after this , i told mrs. celier the story , who i suppose went to the tower and gave the lords an account of it . and the next time i had the honour to see my lady powis , she was pleased to say , she liked it very well , but did not as i remember say any thing of the copy ; but being desirous to see what osborn had sworn , and whether it were agreeable to lane's affidavit that i spake of before , i desire knox to let me see it , but he had it not about him at that time . some time after that , as near as i can remember i was at proctor's coffee-house at charing-cross , and mr. knox came thither , whether by my appointment , or his , i can't well tell , but there we met , and one bedford was with me ; at that same time mr. knox desired we would go into a back-room , and now , said he , i will give you satisfaction , and drew out of his pocket an affidavit , it was a sheet of paper , if not written of every side , i believe of three sides ; it was very long , and he read it , my lord , and i did find by the contents of it , that it did imply the same thing that lane had sworn before sir iames butler ; that is , that mr. cates should attempt upon lane's body to commit sodomy , or something very agreeable to it . i told him , mr. knox , said i , this is very material , this will do you a great deal of service , the term is coming on , you would do well to get an indictment drawn up against mr. cates. said he , i will do his business , and will advise with persons able to instruct me in it , and i don't doubt but to carry on the business effectually . and to that purpose i desired him to let me have a copy of the affidavit ; he promised me i should , and said he would bring it several times , and he came several times to my lodging , but did not bring it ; but i having it read to me , and remembring the contents of it , the next time i saw my lady powis , i gave her an account of it . said she , this man is very diligent , and deserves to be encouraged , and as i believe gave the lords in the tower an account of it too , for then she was lodgd at the tower with her lord , and so her ladishop told me : and , said she , do you know whether this man be in a condition to prosecute this business against mr. cates ? said she , i believe he is put upon this by my lord of danby , and he i believe takes care of him to furnish him with money . said i , i have endeavoured to trace him out in that thing , and by all his correspondents i could never find , but only by one , that mr. knox was ever acquainted or held correspondence with my lord of danby , and that person is mr. nettervile , who is a worthy gentleman of my acquaintance in the pall-mall : and being in his chamber , knox came in , and speaking merrily after his manner to him , said he , knox when were you at the tower with my lord of danby ? said he , i hold no correspondence with him . yes , said mr. nettervile , 't is plain you do , and i believe a friend of mine saw you go in the other day : but knox did positively deny it ; that was all that ever i heard of his correspondence with my lord of danby . after this , when her ladiship came to me to ask me what condition he was in to prosecute the tryal ; i told her , i believed his condition was very mean , and it would be very acceptable , if he might or could be furnished with money . well , said she , i will take care of it , and give an account of it to my lord , and he shall be furnished . and in the mean time , if mr. knox wants money , be sure you take care and furnish him ; but you need not let it be very considerable , till you see what is raised . some time after this , mr. knox came to mrs celiers house to ask for me , i was then in my chamber , but not ready ; he came up to me , and told me , said he , really i am very poor , i am going to pavvn my sword , or something to that purpose , can you lend me five pounds ? really mr. knox , said i , i will tell you , the affidavit that you read to me i have given an account of it to my lady powis , and i suppose some other persons of honour have had an account of it also ; i am satisfied they are , and that the lords in the tower will take care that money shall be raised for your prosecuting of mr. oates . he seem'd to smile at this ; but said he , if this should be known , it would be very prejudicial to the business , and spoil it ; but yet however if you can furnish me with money at this time , you will do me a great kindness , for i have very great occasion . i told him , said i , i have not so much money by me , you come at an unseasonable time , though indeed i told him a lye , but i thought it not safe to part with money without further order . mr. knox went away , and i gave an account of it to mrs. celier , who went either every day , or every other day to the tower ; i told her what mr. knox said , and i do believe ( as she told me afterwards ) she told my lady powis of it , and mrs. celier seem'd to be angry that i did not let him have the money , and order'd me that at what time soever after that mr. knox should come to me , i should let him have what money he wanted . some time after this , mr. knox did come to me , and said his condition was very mean , and you told me , said he , that care should be taken by the lords in the tower to furnish me with money . said i , mr knox i can let you have or s. if that will do you any kindness ; i have no order for any sum at present , but as soon as it comes , it must come to you through my hands , and it must pass as if i lent it you , and you shall give me a note for it to repay it , lest any thing should come to be discovered , and coming to mr. oates hearing , should prejudice the business ; though i had been too forward before in giving mr. knox an account that the lords in the tower would contribute to this business . at that time i went up stairs and fetch'd down s. and gave it him : he came afterwards , and would have borrowed more of me at other times , once or twice after that , but i did not furnish him , for i had received no order to furnish him any further . and this , my lord , is all the correspondence i had with him , and as near as i can remember , i have given nothing in but what is a very true account of the transaction . sir fr. win. my lord , i crave one question of him , if he have done : after the papers were corrected and written fair , and enlarged upon by the several persons , did you read them ? and what were the contents of them ? mr. dangerfield . my lord , i did not read them , nor did i draw them , but i do believe that the contents were the same for substance with the affidavit that lane made before sir iames butler . mr. williams . sir , you mention several sums of money that you paid to knox , and paid to lane , pray where had you this money ? mr. dangerfield . the s that i gave to knox it was my own money , but if i must give an account where i had it , i believe it came originally from the tower. mr. williams . the ten shillings a week , whence came that ? mr. dangerfield . sometimes from the hands of my lady powis , at other times from mris. celier ; sometimes from mr. wood , and sometimes from my self , and i placed it to accompt . mr. serj. maynard . if your lordship please , we will now proceed to another part of our evidence . mr. williams . about what time were they to endict mr. oates ? was not this project on foot when the presbyterian-plot was on foot ? mr. dangerfield . my lord , i don't know what time ; but it was by my advice to be done this term , and so did nevil advise too . mr. serj. maynard . my lord , i would read some of the memorials or informations , that they were to swear against dr. oates concerning the business that you have heard . lord chief iustice. would you have them read , brother ? mr. serj. maynard . yes , my lord. lord chief iustice. who proves them ? then the iustices of peace swore them . mr. justice pemberton . sir william waller , did he confess he left them with my lord latimer ? sir william waller . these are the papers that were confessed to be carryed to my lord latimer . mr. warcup . osborn did swear , that the informations marked , , , , & , were all of his own hand-writing , and were dictated by the said knox. mr. just. pemberton . and he did confess , that these were the informations that he had delivered to my lord latimer . mr. vvarcup . yes , he did so . mr. serj. maynard . it will lie on his part , to prove that they were true . mr. just. pemberton . which will you have read , one , or all of them . mr. serj. maynard . one , or two ; take knox's first . which was delivered to the clerk of the crown , who read it in haec verba . [ numb . . ] the information of thomas knox , sworn before me this day of . this informant doth upon his oath declare , that on the first of this present april , there came one william osborne to the informant in the painted-chamber in westminster , and told to him the said informant , that he had somthing of moment to reveal to him ; and did also desire the informant to go with him into the abby , and he would reveal it to him ; upon which the said osborne , and the informant being together , the said osborne did tell the informant , that his conscience was mightily troubled for that he found the lord treasurer was maliciously prosecuted by mr. oates and mr. bedlow ; for that he having been a servant to mr. oates , and had often heard mr. oates and mr. bedlow consult together , in mr. oates his chamber in whitehall , and resolve how they might contrive a way whereby to destroy my lord treasurer : and that he had chosen to reveal this secret , and ease his conscience to the informant , rather than to any one else , because he thought he would keep it secret , for his own sake , because he had already suffered by endeavouring to serve the said lord treasurer , and thereupon the said osborne shewed to the informant some papers written , as he told the informant , all in his own hand , and which were relating to the said lord treasurer ; upon which the said informant , told the said osborne , that he was no servant of the said lord treasurers , and did not therefore desire to meddle in it ; and that particularly , because he had never spoke with the said osborne before , and desired to be excused ; upon which the said osborne did press the informant , and withal did tell him , that if he did not assist him in this affair , it was resolved both by him , and one mr. lane , that they would come in on the day of the said lord treasurers tryal , and declare the truth concerning what they knew , concerning the malicious design of the said mr. oates and mr. bedlow , against the said lord treasurer ; for that they could not rest for fear he should suffer innocently , whilst they could with so good a conscience , as they thought , save him : and the said osborne did withall declare , that the aforesaid mr. lane was resolved to speak to the informant , upon the foresaid matter : and the said lane did accordingly , upon the said first of april , in the evening , meet the informant , and shewed him some papers , wherein he had taken several memorials , relating to his majesty , the queen , my lord treasurer , and several other persons : and did withall declare to the informant , that his conscience was so troubled , to see the malicious proceedings of the said mr. oates and bedlow , against the said lord treasurer , that he could not rest in his bed , untill he had disburdened it , by telling the truth ; and if he had not met with this informant , he was resolved to declare it speedily to some one else ▪ or come himself at the day of the said lord treasurer's tryal , and there declare all that he knew , relating to that affair . and did withall conjure the informant , as also the said osborne , to keep all they had told him secret : for if it should come to the ears of the said mr. oates and bedlow , they would endeavour to poison , or murder them , the said osborne and lane , the first time they should see them . tho. knox. then a second was offered to be read ; but there appearing scandalous matter to be in it , reflecting on the king ; the court thought not fit , to suffer the same to be read through . mr. serj. maynard . my lord , i think it appears by the evidence sufficiently , how they did designe to accuse mr. oates . lord chief iustice. ay , brother , come let us hear what they can say to it on the other side . mr. withins . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the iury ; i am of councel for the defendant knox , and for knox only . mr. williams . pray sir , hold : my lord , we have here two witnesses more , that will fortify mr. dangerfield in what he hath said . call susan edwards , and mrs. blake . then mrs. blake appeared , and was sworn . mr. williams . pray mrs. blake , what can you say of any reward lane was to have , for accusing mr. oates ? or any promises were made to him ? mrs. blake . all that i can say of lane , is this ; that lane did say once to me , i am here ; and i was dr. oate's man , and he would have buggered me : and he did make complaint for want of linnen ; and spoke to me , to wash him some linnen . said he , here i have no linnen , neither will they let me have any ; and his boy here , will not stir to look for any , unless willoughby speak to him . then the boy was spoke to . lord chief iustice. what is all this ? what sayes the other woman ? mr. williams . he is called willoughby sometimes , & sometimes dangerfield ; for he went by both names : but i ask you , what money you know was given to him ? blake . he told me , he was to be allowed ten shillings a week ? lord chief iustice. this is only to strengthen his evidence . blake . he never said to me , from whom it was . then mrs. edwards was sworn . mr. serj. maynard . what do you say mrs. ? edwards . may it please you , i don't know lane ; i never saw him in my life , but only when he was sent for , by mrs. celier , to get an habeas corpus for willoughby , who was then in newgate ; and he did come the next day , and gave his answer to me . lord chief iustice. she sayes nothing , but only he was desired to get an habeas corpus for vvilloughby . mr. sol. general . yes , my lord , she is called to shew you , whether lane had not money from mrs. celier . edwards . that was the first time i saw him ; and the next morning , i saw him him again : and when he came to the door , he told his errand to me . he said , he could get no habeas corpus : for he was such a rogue , no body would meddle nor make with him . mr. dangerfield . i would fain have her asked this question , my lord , if you please ; did you ever see mr. knox , at mrs. celiers house ? edwards . if i see him , i can tell . then the defendant , knox , was shewn to her . edwards . i cannot say , this is the man : i have heard much talk of mr. knox , and that he hath been there ; but i cannot swear , this is he . mr. dangerfeild . my lord , if your lordship pleases , when lane was first brought to me to the countess of of powis house , he was very meanly equipag'd , and the countess of powis was informed of it , and did desire me to take some particular care to cloath him , and that i should put him into a disguise ; but at that time i had a suit of cloaths , that were lined with blew , which i gave to him ; and i also advised him to cut off his hair , and to put on a perriwigg , which he did , and hath worn it ever since , as i believe . lord chief iustice. well , let us hear what they say to it . mr. withins . may it please lordship , i am of counsel in this case for mr. knox ; there are two persons here made defendants : as for mr. lane , i have nothing to do with him , nor to say for him ; and his case hath made him appear to be a very evil man. but my lord , i do observe that indictment consists of two parts : the first is , that these two defendants did conspire together ; and this was the thirtyeth of april ( and the proof comes to that time , for it will be material in our case ) that they did maliciously and deceitfully combine , and conspire against titus oates clerk , and vvill. bedloe gentleman , who had discovered this horrid popish plot , and whom they knew to have given informations of it , to take away their reputation , and make them witnesses of no belief or credit ; that is one part of the indictment , the other part is that to further the same ; mr. knox did cause two or three letters to be written , as from osborne and lane to him purporting those aspertions to be layd upon oates and bedloe : for the last part of the indictment , the council for the king have not thought fit to proceed upon it , and they have not given an account of the letters : but for the first part , their conspiring to take off the reputation of oates and bedloe is the only thing they have proceeded upon as i conceive . i must needs say , my lord , that mr. knox as well as doctor oates and mr. bedloe , have had a very great misfortune to meet with these men . l. c. i. to meet with whom ? mr. vvithins . to meet with osborne and lane , for i do not here pretend to lay any aspersion , or make any reflections upon the credit or reputation of doctor oates or mr. bedloe . i think they have serv'd the nation too well to be villifi'd here . but i shall say this , that as osborne and lane had a great designe to disgrace and discredit mr. oates and mr. bedloe ; so they had a designe to draw my clyent mr. knox in , to pursue their malice . i did shew you , that they did begin their evidence as to time in april , and they have laid it so in the indictment : we shall prove to your lordship , and shew you , that before this , and before that mr. knox knew either osborne or lane , that they had drawn up this accusation against mr. oates , and read it to several witnesses , which we shall produce . and afterwards , when they came to advise how they should prosecute the same , they were advised first to go to mr. thewer : he told them that it was a dangerous thing to meddle about , and he would not involve himself , but bid them take care what they did in it . upon this they apply themselves to my clyent mr. knox , he told them the same thing ; it is a matter of great consequence , i desire not to meddle with it . said they , will you not assist us in this business , when we only discover this to acquit our own consciences , who knew these things to be treating and contriving against the king and my lord of danby ? for my part , says one of them , i cannot leave the town till i have discovered it . notwithstanding this , mr. knox would not undertake to meddle with it , but left them . they come to him the second time , and mr. knox being a young man , and it seems , being a servant in the family , entered into a corresdence with them , to prosecute what they had design'd to do . there is nothing appears ( and this i would observe , if your lordship please ) in the whole evidence , that mr. knox was to swear any thing against dr. oates , or mr. bedloe , ( as i remember ) but he was indeed engaged to carry on the prosecution , these witnesses enforming him of it ; and that it was a truth , i must observe to your lordship upon their evidence , they did insinuate , as if mr. knox had been at the charge of maintaining lane : but i think , that mr. dangerfield hath pretty well cleared whence that maintenance came , that he gave to mr. lane ; that it came through none of the hands of my clyent mr. knox. lord chief iustice. no , mr. withins , he is not accused for giving him a constant maintenance ; but for the money , the guinneys , and ten shillings . 't is true , it was said , it was to be paid again ; but from him they had the money : and it appears , that he provided lodgings for them , and paid for their lodgings . mr. just. pemberton . and pray observe this , that what mr. dangerfield speaks of , is of a time afterwards , after they had been taken and imprisoned , and confessed the matter . mr. withins . but this you observe i hope , my lord , from mr. dangerfield's evidence ; that knox was very poor , had not any thing to maintain himself with . lord chief iustice. the sums indeed , don't seem to be very great ; a guinney , and ten shillings in silver : but whatever it was , he gave it them , and took lodgings for them , and paid for them . mr. withins . i did intend to observe to your lorship , that 't is a pretty strange thing , that there should be a designe to corrupt persons , to commit this foul and horrid offence ; and nothing of a reward or corruption proved , but two guinneys , and ten shillings . mr. just. pemberton . what say you to the promises of five hundred pound , and a hundred pound a year a peece ? mr. vvithins . that was lane's own evidence . lane and osborne might brag what they would , of what they were to have , and from whom : but i believe , not one in the court , believed a word they said . for it does appear , that lane did forswear himself backwards and forwards , as the wind blew . so that , as for what lane hath said , it weighs not ; but we shall call two witnesses , to whom lane declared this matter in february and march , before the time that knox was concerned : so that if we make it appear , that the contrivance was theirs , and there was only a great deal of weakness and indiscretion in mr. knox , to believe such idle persons , against persons that had shewed themselves so considerable in this discovery . i hope it vvill not be thought such a crime in us , seeing there is nothing in it , but that a young man was led away ; and only his folly , and his indiscretion drew him in ; not any malice or ill design . sir vvill. vvaller . my lord , mr. knox did confess to me , that he did throw down a guinney , and then lane and osborne took it up ; but they both positively swore , that he threw it down for this reason , that he might safely swear , he never gave them it . mr. saunders . all that they swear is not agreed to be true ; my lord , if your lordship please , i am of counsel for the defendant knox , and as to that part of the indictment that charges him with writing the letters they do not proceed upon . mr. serjeant maynard . yes , we do , we proceed upon the whole — l. chief iustice. they proceed upon the whole , but you may say if you will , they give no proof of it . mr. saunders . then , as to that , with submission to your lordships judgment , the defendant is to be found not guilty . mr. iust. pemberton . you must observe , these are not several crimes , but one continued crime , and therefore the evidence must go to the whole . l. ch. iustice. you do well to observe it for your client , but if you require it of the counsel on the other side , it may be they will give you an answer , if you will undertake to affirm that they have given no evidence as to that part of the indictment wherein it says , mr. knox contrived three letters to scandalize mr. oats . mr. saunders . we submit it to the court whether they have or no. for the other part of the indictment wherein it is charged that he should maliciously contrive with lane to lay a calumny and scandal upon mr. oates and mr. bedloe , the very point we are to answer to is this , whether this were a malicious contrivance or no , and for that we shall give your lordship this evidence , that knox was a young ignorant man , and drawn in by lane and osborne to patronize their mischief they intended against oates and bedloe ; for my lord , mr. knox was not acquainted with them , or had any thing to do with them till that they had contrived this matter among themselves : for , my lord , we shall call you witnesses to prove , that before knox had to do with them , they would have had another person to prosecute this business for them . and if wel satisfie you that he was drawn in , i hope it will acquit us ; notwithstanding i will observe to your lordship and the jury , whether lane be guilty or not guilty does not affect us , if we were onely drawn into the contrivance . l. ch. iust. where ever lane's testimony stands single against knox , it is no evidence . mr. iust. iones . but if he was not in the plot at the beginning , but was drawn in , and did after proceed with them , as dangerfield proves , i doubt it will not acquit him . mr. iust. pemberton . consider a little your case , you say here was a contrivance of two , that knox was not in the beginning , but they offered it to others with whom it would not take , why let knox come in when he will , if he does come into the contrivance and takes the papers and manages the business to fix these scandals and encourage them to carry them on , knox is as guilty as all the rest . mr. saunders . but if these men come and tell him these things are true and we can swear them , and so is drawn in , it takes away the malice of the contrivance . l. ch. iust. this is the use the defendant knox his counsel make of it , at first knox was not acquainted with the matter , and when he did come to understand it he thought it to be true , as they affirmed it was true , and , said they , we will go before a justice of peace and swear it : he was willing , there being a discovery of several conspiracies against his lord's life , as they said , he being his servant , he was willing to prosecute the business , and this is the use they make of it . mr. iust. pemberton . come let us hear your witnesses . mr. scroggs . call frances lane and mary lane. l. ch. iust. but i 'll tell you what , it will be necessary to clear your selves as well as you can of those papers that were delivered by knox to dangerfield , and went about to the lords in the tower , and afterward to nevill , and by him amended , and after delivered to knox again by dangerfield : this does shew as if you were concerned in the whole affair , and in all the matter of the information before it was cooked and after it was dressed . you must give some account of that , for that sticks strongly upon you . [ then mrs. frances lane and her daugher mary lane were sworn . ] mr. scroggs . mrs. lane , are not you mother to lane the defendant ? frances lane. yes . mr. withins . pray will you give an account what your son said to you in february last . mr. serj. maynard . we pray they may ask their questions in general . mr. iust. pemberton . don't you point her to a time . l. ch. iust. answer me , what hath your son said to you at any time concerning oates ? frances lane. he spoke it about march. l. ch. iust. what did he say ? frances lane. he used him uncivilly , he had no mind to stay with him . l. ch. iust. what said you ? frances lane. i desired him to stay longer . l. ch. iust. how often did he tell you this ? frances lane. several times . l. ch. iust. he had left his service once , had he not ? frances lane. yes . l. ch. iust. was it before or after he left his service ? frances lane. before and after too . l. ch. iust. if he complained he had so used him before , why would he go to him again ? frances lane. because the times were hard and i perswaded him . l. ch. iust. ay , but would you perswade him after such an abuse of your son as that ? frances lane. i thought then he would not do so again . mr. iust. iones . when was the first time he complained to you ? frances lane. it was about christmas . mr. iust. iones . was it before christmas ? frances lane. it was after . mr. iust. pemberton . consider here you bring lane's mother to accuse him to excuse your self . l. ch. iust. but is this material ? mr. scroggs . it is material to our client mr. knox , who was drawn in here by a couple of rascals . we prove that before this time , which justice warcup and sir william waller have in their informations , they offered the same discovery to others . l. ch. iust. call them and prove it , but you will never have the better name for calling them ill ones . mr. scroggs . we lay all upon lane and osborne who inveigled knox. mr. saunders . pray mrs. lane tell the court and jury how and when your son came acquainted with mr. knox. frances lane. may it please you my lord , osborn brings a paper to our house and would have had my son have read it , but he could not , so he read it himself ; and there were some desperate things in it . l. ch. iust. what were they ? frances lane. i can't tell , they were concerning the king and the queen and my lord treasurer . l. ch. iust. when was this ? frances lane. in march last , at our house , and i desired them they would not meddle with such things , for i said they were things beyond them . my son promised me he would not meddle with it , but let osborne alone with it , but said i , pray go to one captain thewer , he is a good civil man , and a man of understanding . so they did go as i directed them . mr. iust. pemberton . who went ? frances lane. osborne did . mr. iust. pemberton . who went with him ? for you say they . frances lane. iohn lane my son. l. ch. iust. was there any thing particular in those papers concerning mr. oates being guilty of sodomy ? frances lane. i cannot say in particular , it is a great while ago , but he went to captain thewer , and he wish'd him , after he had read it , said he , don't meddle with any of these things for it will be the worse for you . l. ch. iust. as your son told you , you were not by . f. lane. yes they both told me so . with that says mr. osborne , i 'll find out one mr. knox , who had been some acquaintance of mr. wiggins , mr. bedloe's clerk , and so , said he , i will ask mr. wiggins , if he be acquainted with mr. knox. l. ch. iust. did your son at that time know knox ? f. lane. no , my lord , he had never seen him at that time : so my son went , and they found mr. wiggins and mr. knox walking in the abby . l. ch. iust. was lane with him then ? f. lane. he went with osborne , and came and told me , knox would not meddle with them . l. ch. iust. who came and told you so ? f. lane. osborne came and told me so and my son. l. ch. iust. you were not by ? f. lane. no , not i , but said he , as he told me , i will go to him again , and afterwards he did meet him again , as he said , and delivered them to him . mr. withins . did you ever see knox in your life ? f. lane. i had never seen him then . mr. withins . did you ever hear your son say he did know knox before that time ? f. lane. never in my life . mr. iust. pemberton . but you do not prove that they were not acquainted . l. c.iust . do you believe osborne said true , mr. saunders ? mr. saunders . not when he spoke to sir william waller to accuse my client of the contrivance . l. ch. iust. in that case when 't is against your client he did not , but in other cases he might , well go on . mr. withins . which is mary lane ? m. lane. i am she sir. i can say no more then my mother hath said , i was by at the same time . mr. saunders . do you know when iohn lane came acquainted with knox ? was it before april last or after ? mr. iust. pemberton . how is it possible that any one can swear a negative ? mr. saunders . if we can't prove the negative , nor they the affirmative , it will be presumed they were not , because it is not known . mr. iust. pemb. nor do you prove any informations before given to any one . mr. saund. yes , to thewer . mr. with. we will ask the daughter about that . f. lane. she can onely prove it by hearing it , for she was sick . mr. with. young mrs. lane , what was there in that paper that osborne brought to your house ? m. lane. there was concerning the king and the queen and my lord treasurer . l. c. iust. was there any thing in it concerning mr. oates ? m. lane. yes , there was concerning his beastliness . mr. iust. pemb. who read it ? m. lane. osborne i did hear reade it . mr. saun. your brother was not acquainted with knox then ? mr. iust. pemb. how can they tell that ? 't is impossible . l. ch. iust. the nature of the thing is such , that it can be proved no otherwise . but it seemed to them that they were of no acquaintance , it is hard to prove when an acquaintance begins . mr. saund. and further then this we cannot go in such a case ; for that thing of the great sums of money , certainly it was as little a thing as could be ; there was no more in the case then a guiney , and ten shillings and three half crowns as proved , and he was cheated of them it seems , for they would not do the work . mr. scroggs . 't is an improbable thing that he should be so poor as to sell the handle of his sword , and yet be ingaged in the management of such a plot , and not have money for it . l. ch. iust. there is no great store of money appears to be given to lane , but he was kept upon a mean maintenance . mr. iust. iones . but it was not without expectation of a reward . mr. iust. pemb. he tells you the wages was to be paid when the work was done . l. ch. iust. and when the roguery was discovered , they had no more money then . mr. iust. pemb. when the business came to be controverted thus , they had no reason to give it . mr. saund. though lane had maintenance , yet our client knox was not taken such care of , still there was provision made for him , but none for us , because we were drawn in and did not contrive it . mr. iust. pemb. but remember mr. saunders , by the same hand there was forty shillings given at one time . mr. with. well my lord we have done : we say that we had no part in the malice of the contrivance , and therefore ought not to be punished with them . l. ch. i. well mr. holt , what say you for lane ? mr. holt. my lord , i am assigned of counsel for the defendant lane. i have no witnesses at all to examine , but onely shall make some little observations upon the evidence that is given for the king. as for the indictment it self , though it is not several crimes , but one complicated crime , yet the evidence that is given is onely to one part thereof , and therefore i submit it to your lordship if the proof be proportionable to the charge , and whether the defendant ought not to be found not guilty . there hath been great mention made of the writing letters , yet it would be hard that the defendant should be found guilty of such an offence when the proof does not come up so high : that would introduce a severer punishment then the crime proved would justifie . mr. just. pemb. pray mr. holt don't go away with that : i must set you right a little there , the crime that is laid is , to discountenance the kings evidence , and to make them that they should not be believed ; the means are several , partly by casting of crimes upon them , partly by writing letters ; that crime is another thing , and therefore if they do not find them guilty of every one of the particular means , yet the crime must be found . l. ch. j. you are in the right thus far mr. holt , they have laid in the indictment , that they endeavouring to disparage the credit of oates and bedloe , have for money's sake , and by promises and contrivances , and writing of letters wherein was scandalous matter against oates and bedloe , they thereby did attempt to discredit them . now say you if this matter be not proved that there was any scandalous matter concerning oates and bedloe , then the contrivance is not proved : but what though all the facts in the indictment are not proved , yet if there be enough to prove your contrivance to discredit them , and if you suppose the evidence true that is given , it rests i think plainly upon your client , and you cannot get off from it : but if there be not sufficient proof to maintain the indictment for the crime of endeavouring to discredit oates and bedloe , unless they prove the letters also , you say something , but there is the business that sticks on you , they have proved enough without that . mr. holt. if the jury do not find them not guilty generally , may they not find them not guilty of writing the letters ? l. ch. i. no ; for if the other part of the evidence did not amount to a proof of a design of disparaging their testimony , you had a very strong objection of it : but if they lay five things , and they prove but one of them upon you , if that one serves to the disparaging of oates and bedloe , which is the substance of the indictment , that maintains the indictment . mr. holt. it does so my lord , but not the aggravations . l. ch. just. all that you say then is in mitigation of a fine , but if all be true that is proved upon your client , as i see no reason to doubt it , you will save but little by this defence . mr. holt. my lord , as to the matter , it all depends upon the credit of the witnesses , and credibility of the circumstances in themselves and one with another . some of the evidence is but very slight , and sure were but produced to spend time . l. ch. just. indeed there was a great deal of it to little purpose ; for ought i see this tryal needed not to have been above an hour . mr. holt. as for his saying he should have li. a year , and the bettering of his fortune , it was but his vanity and extravagance . l. ch. just. mr. holt does argue as much for his client as the case will bear . mr. holt. they have endeavoured to lay all upon us , now if so be we are affected with any severe evidence , i think the same evidence ( to requite them ) does affect them . l. ch. just. this is a kind of battel-royal , where every one hath two enemies to oppose . mr. holt. here is mr. dangerfield he comes , and in his evidence tells you , that my lady powis was so long upon her knees to thank god that her party was so much strengthned by the accession of law , my lord , i desire the quality of mr. lane may be taken notice of , a footman and a young rash fellow , one that both for age and quality could not be very considerable . lord chief iust. but two witnesses is better than one , mr. holt , do you remember that ? knox used that expression , if lane do but keep firm , we shall be too hard for osborne alone , for two witnesses are better than one , but by that he counted lane worth something . mr. holt. you must consider what he was to swear they could scarce get an evidence so proper for what they would have him swear . lord chief iust. mr. williams , what answer can you give to all the transactions that mr. dangerfield tells you of about knox ? besides , take notice of this , you would have this to be a contrivance by lane and osborne to be between themselves , and that your clyent must be a stranger to it ; and when he comes to know it , he knows it only as a remorse of conscience that they tell him they have , and desire him to go with him before a justice of peace to swear it , and he hearing something that might affect his master the earl of danby , and believing that always true , did encourage that matter onely for his masters service , and thought he did a good act in it : but your subsequent behaviour shews it was a conspiracy rather ; for , first , your secret wayes of sending your cunning notes , we all club'd together , and you payd two shillings at the sugar-loaf , bear this , which shews , and does to my apprehension , signifie as if he would never own that he spent any thing upon them , and that he was bountiful to them . and then the giving of money to the man to convey notes , that they might not betray one another ; does not all these subsequent actions , especially those dangerfield tells you of , and receiving the papers after they were enlarged upon speak it a conspiracy , what can you say to all this ? mr. vvilliams . my lord — mr. iust. pemberton . stay a little , and answer all together ; do but consider with your self , those informations your clyent knox did own he took , and before they were sworn , and carried them to my lord latimer's lodgings , and he himselfe owns , that he took lodgings for them , and lay with them , and when the lords were in pursuit of them . lord chief iust. and then does he steal them from place to place , takes lodgings for them , and payes for them . mr. iust. iones . he brings one of them to make affidavit , and will keep it by him , is shie of shewing it ; afterwards does shew it , this makes him a contriver too , as well as an executer . mr. saunders . if your lordship please — mr. iust. pemb. consider too the papers that were put in too of caution , that knox and they should not be found in several tales ; for knox had been examined before they were , that was the meaning of those instructions ? lord. ch. iust. if you have any witnesses to wipe your selves clean from the matter of receiving the papers from dangerfield , & taking lodgings for them when they were under that accusation , do . mr. saunders . i have a word to answer upon the testimonie of mr. dangerfield . mr. iust. pemberton . consider this , that he attempted another man upon the same account ; your clyent did tempt vviggins to do the same thing to his master . mr. saunders . that was in february before , and all that he said , was , that he would have had out of mr. bedloe's servant , what company his master kept , and what he did . lord chief iust. you do observe right . mr. iust. pemb. and to have betrayed his papers to him . lord chief iust. that does not reach this indictment indeed but that thing that he would have tempted him to , was to have discovered , and to have a transcript of all the papers that concerned my lord of danby ; that he should watch his company , and know what lords were with him , that he might make his opposition as well as he could , and that he should have what place he did desire under my lord. it does not affect the case of the indictment , but if shews you are a tempter of men , and that you are a cautioner , that you would hire a man to betray his masters papers , which is not fair , let the master be who he will. mr. iustice pemberton , it facilitates the belief of this . lord chief iustice , yes : ay , ay , it is to make the jury more apt to credite what the evidence of this particular fact is . mr. saunders , my lord , let me offer this word and i submit , mr. dangerfield himself does swear , that lane brought him a paper containing the same matter that he did falsly accuse m. oates of , and he read it over three times to him , and then he swore it before sir iames butler , my lord , i will put my cause upon that point , whether mr. dangerfield did not believe it to be true at that time . mr. iustice iones , your clyent is the more mischievous man to contrive it so as to make the thing to be believed when it was false . lord chief iustice , the use of the argument he makes is this , that as mr. dangerfield might be deceived into a belief that the information was true ; so might mr. knox as well , when he saw one ready to swear it ; but hath dangerfield done those subsequent acts which he hath done in the confederacy , for which he is now indicted ? mr. saunders , he swears in his information , that they came to his hands from lane and osborne . lord chief iustice , well gentlemen , you of the kings counsel and of the jury , you need not any summing up of the evidence , i think the thing is evident . mr. iustice pemberton , gentlemen , 't is a very clear case , as clear as the day , i think you need not go from the bar , but do as you will. then the iury laying their heads together , agreed without delay , and without moving from the barr. clerk of the crown , gentlemen are you all agreed of your verdict ? omnes , yes . clerk of the crown , who shall say for you ? omnes , foreman . clerk of the crown , how say you , are the defendants guilty of the offence and misdemeanour whereof they stand indicted , or not guilty ? foreman , guilty . [ at which the people gave a great shout . ] mr. serjeant maynard , my lord , i pray the verdict may be recorded . mr. iustice iones , let it be so . come , where are these two young fellows ? let us see if they can shew their faces now . [ and they were brought into the middle of the court. ] knox. will your lordship give me leave to speak one word for my self ? mr. iustice iones , no : no , there 's no speaking now , take them into your custody marshal . [ vvhich was done , and the court broke up . ] finis . books lately printed . the tryal , conviction , and condemnation of anthony brommich , and william atkins , for being romish priests , before the right honourable the lord chief justice scroggs , at this last summer assizes at stafford , held there for the county of stafford . where they receiv'd sentence of death accordingly . together with the tryal of charles kern , at hereford assizes last , for being also a romish priest. the lord chief iustice scroggs his speech in the kings bench the first day of this michaelmas term , occationed by the many libellous pamphlets which are published against law , to the scandal of the government , and publick justice . together with what was declared at the same time on the same occasion in open court , by mr. justice iones , and mr. justice dolben . sold by robert pawlet at the bible in chancery-lane . nevvs from the sessions, or, the whole tryal of george allen the butcher vvho murthered his vvife in the fields behind islington, on friday the th of this instant february, and the manner how the same came to be discovered : as also the full tryal of john harter the oastler, for stealing au [sic] horse, and an hundred and twenty pounds of money, for which he is convicted of felony : with the tryals of several other malefactors for divers notorious crimes, and other remarkable passages at the sessions begun at justice-hall in the old bayly, the th of febr. / . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing n estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) nevvs from the sessions, or, the whole tryal of george allen the butcher vvho murthered his vvife in the fields behind islington, on friday the th of this instant february, and the manner how the same came to be discovered : as also the full tryal of john harter the oastler, for stealing au [sic] horse, and an hundred and twenty pounds of money, for which he is convicted of felony : with the tryals of several other malefactors for divers notorious crimes, and other remarkable passages at the sessions begun at justice-hall in the old bayly, the th of febr. / . england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). p. printed for george smith, [london] : . reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng allen, george -- trials, litigation, etc. harter, john -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (murder) -- england -- london. trials (robbery) -- england -- london. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion nevvs from the sessions . or , the whole tryal of george allen the butcher vvho murthered his vvife in the fields behind islington , on friday the th . of this instant february , and the manner how the same came to be discovered . as also the full tryal of john harter the oastler , for stealing an horse , and an hundred and twenty pounds of money . for which he is convicted of felony . with the tryals of several other malefactors , for divers notorious crimes , and other remarkable passages at the sessions begun at justice-hall in the old bayly , the th . of febr. / . printed for george smith , . news from the sessions , &c. at this sessions for london and middlesex , and goal-delivery of newgate , amongst many other criminals of diverse kinds , george allen for the heinousness of his barbarous crime , was sadly remarkable above others : having not onely committed a bloody murther , but such as was aggravated to the highest degree , by being perpetrated on a poor innocent of the weaker sex , and the nearest relation in the vvorld : this inhumane fact was done on friday the th . of this instant february in the evening . in the fields behind islington ( lately the bloody scene of several lamentable tragedies , as that of the eminent quaker who drown'd himself in vvheelers-pond on friday night the th . instant whose corps was not found till thursday last , and another person since killed in a fray not far from thence . the manner how this allen came to be suspected and discovered was thus . the murthered party his wife , and he had for a long time lived at difference ; insomuch that she was forced to leave him , and return home to uxbridge her native place , to live with her friends , and had lived from him there for about two years : during which time he being by trade a butcher , workt as journy-man with one of that profession in an alley in turn-mill-street ; but the week before the murther committed he went down thither , and seeming very willing to be reconciled by fair words prevailed with the womans credulity and good nature to live with him again , promising for to use her far more kindly for the future ; and accordingly on friday the fifth instant they came up together from thence to london , and arrived at grays-inn lane just as it began to be dark , but he pretending that his lodging was a great way off , led her from thence round through hatton-garden , and so again into the fields , where he inveigled her along till they came as aforesaid behind islington , near the gravel-pits , and there carrying her pattins for her with one of them he knockt her on the head , and leaving her dead went home to his lodging in turn-mill-street : next morning her body was found , and comming to strip her , in her stocking they found her wedding ring , which 't is more than probable she had hid there , that he might not take it away from her , it being his usual custome formerly to plunder her of every thing of any value to supply his extravagencies . the rumour of a woman so found , who by all circumstances appear'd to have been murthered , spreading about the country , soon came to uxbridge where her father and uncle were living , who no sooner heard it but they were struck with a kind of prophetical apprehension , that it might be this person murthered by her unnatural husband . and therefore ordered a friend that was comming to london to inquire after it , who comming to islington knew the slain persons cloaths , and thence concluding on violent presumptions that her husband must indeed have a hand in it , immediately procures a warrant and apprehends him in newgate market , before the justice of peace , he absolutely denyed all , and affirmed he parted with his wife at grays-inn-lane end , and since had neither seen nor known what was become of her . but being committed to newgate , and forced ( for he was very unwilling ) to go to hear the sermon there the next lords day . it seems the same made some impression on his spirit , for the next day being closely examined , he confest he did k●ll her , and that the intention of the murther first entred into his heart as they were passing over hatton-garden , and that he did it with one of her pattins , which was sufficiently proved now in court , for notwithstanding such his acknowledgement at the barr , he pleaded , not guilty : it was also proved by several persons from uxbridge , that he had formerly attempted to poysen her , and to that purpose had sent her several times poyson , which once before had like to have cost her her life , and also that here in london he kept company , and was in league with another woman , whom he had promis'd marriage , and appointed a day for that purpose : telling her , his wife in the country had married another man ; and therefore he was free to dispose of himself : yet being questioned , he now cleared that person , and affirmed that she neither instigated him , nor was privy to this murther . there was likewise a letter produced and read , which he owned to be of his writeing , it was dated on the munday after the fact , directed to his wives father ( contrived on purpose to conceal his guilt ) for therein he acquainted them his wife was very well , and that he had taken a little house , beyond london , at stratford , &c. all which making his murtherous intention so apparent he could not at last deny that he kill'd her , but said it , on provocation of ill language , and that she tore him by the hair , whereupon he did indeed strike her a blow with her pattin , and left her on the ground , but did not think to have killed her ; but being not able to give any account why he led her that way , at that time o' th night , his design was evident : being askt what he had to say for himself , one of the honourable judges , no less gravely then religiously told him his condition , required him rather to say much against himself , as being guilty of so great and horrible a sin , of which he feared he was not sufficiently sensible : to which the prisoner replyed that indeed he was not sensible of it , and that he hoped that the court would pitty him : and so desired transportation . but was told , that our laws are more just then to allow that favour to such bloody criminals : so he was left to the jury , who immediately brought him in guilty of murther . there was also one john harter , endicted for felony , his case appeared on proof to be thus : a gentleman of barkshire usually lying at an inn in old-fish-street , where this john was oastler , being to go forth o' th town early on munday morning , the th . instant , desired him to get his horse ready , which being done , he having one hundred and twenty pounds to carry down with him , lays it on the saddle , and then steps into his chamber , or the kitchin to fetch his coat : whilst he was gone , john having notice of the money , mounrs the steed , and rides away with the money directly to cain-wood , where taking out so much of the mony as he thought fit far his present occasion , which was to buy him a perriwigg and new suit , that he might pass undiscovered , he hides the rest there , and brings the horse into a by-lane neer holloway , and there leaves him tyed , and comes back to lon●on : in the mean time a friend of the country-mans that dwelt in drury-lane that was very well acquainted at the inn , comes thither , hears the sad story of his loss , and goes homeward , where neer drury-lane he spies this fellow already disguised in a gentile wigg , yet not so much but that he knew him , and caused him to be apprehended ; before the iustice he forthwith confessed the fact , and told how he had disposed of the horse and money , which were recovered all but about l. which he had spent . the jury at first brought him in , not guilty , as supposing it could not be felony , because the horse was delivered by the owner into the oastlers custody , but upon the advice of the court , that he had no such special custody committed to him , and the witnesses better explaining his former testimony , they amended their verdict , and found him guilty . a person was indicted for robbing a woman in the evening near thistle worth ; who tes●ified that as she was walking two men came behind her and one of them clapping his hands over her eyes pluckt her to the ground whilst the other rob'd her , and then muffling her hood over her face , fled . a shepheard hearing her cry out , making to her rescue , savv them at a distance and pursued one of them near half a mile , of whom he gave a description so like the prisoner at bar that he was apprehended and presented upon suspition . but no direct or sufficient proof appearing , and the fellow producing several to speak in his behlf , he was acquitted , so also vvas another , upon the same score that stood indicted for stealing of broad cloath out of a west country carryers vvagon . there vvere three more arraigned for murther : that 's to say , a souldier for killing a man in a fray in st. gilese's , and tvvo vvomen for destroying their bastard children , vvith several others for fellonies , petty larcernies , and other offences too tedious here to relate . finis . the tryal and condemnation of sir william parkyns, kt., for the horrid and execrable conspiracy to assassinate his sacred majesty king william, in order to a french invasion of this kingdom who upon full evidence was found guilty of high treason, at the sessions-house in the old-baily, march , / : together with a true copy of the papers delivered to the sheriffs of london and middlesex, by sir j. freind [sic] and sir w. parkins, at the place of execution. parkyns, william, sir, ?- , defendant. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and condemnation of sir william parkyns, kt., for the horrid and execrable conspiracy to assassinate his sacred majesty king william, in order to a french invasion of this kingdom who upon full evidence was found guilty of high treason, at the sessions-house in the old-baily, march , / : together with a true copy of the papers delivered to the sheriffs of london and middlesex, by sir j. freind [sic] and sir w. parkins, at the place of execution. parkyns, william, sir, ?- , defendant. friend, john, sir, d. . england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). [ ], - , [ ] p. printed for brabazon aylmer ..., london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng parkyns, william, -- sir, ?- . friend, john, -- sir, d. . trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion i do appoint brabazon aylmer to print and publish the tryal of sir william parkyns , and that no other person do print the same . houblon , mayor . the tryal and condemnation of sir william parkyns , kt. for the horrid and execrable conspiracy to assassinate his sacred majesty king william , in order to a french invasion of this kingdom : who upon full evidence was found guilty of high-treason , at the sessions-house in the old-baily , march . / . together with a true copy of the papers delivered to the sheriffs of london and middlesex , by sir j. freind and sir w. parkins , at the place of execution . london : printed for brabazon aylmer , at the three pigeons over against the royal exchange in cornhil , mdcxcvi . the tryal of sir william parkins , k nt . on tuesday the th . of march , / , at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , london . the court ( according to their adjournment the preceeding day ) met , and proceeded to the tryal of sir william parkins , in this manner . clerk of the crown . set sir william parkins to the bar. sir w. parkins , my lord , if your lordship please , my wife came to see me in prison , and sent a trunk , with some linnen , and other things necessary for my use ; and the sheriffs of london finding them , have seized , and detain them : and i desire your lordship would please to order them back again . the trunk has in it many necessaries , and all things have been torn from me : and i beg the favour of your lordship , to order it to be delivered back to me . mr. sheriff . my lord , if your lordship please , we were sent for to mr. secretary trumbal's office ; and there was a trunk opened , with plate and houshold linnen : and mr. secretary was pleased to deliver the said trunk into our hands , and to take my brothers hand in a rec●ipt for it . we found it in the secretaries office , and had a warrant to bring it down . l. ch. j. holt. i believe your trunk was seized in order to search for treasonable papers . sir w. parkins . yes , my lord , i believe it was . i hope it shall be delivered back again . l. ch. j. h. what was in it ? mr. sheriff . there was diaper linnen , and some other things , and about an hundred and f●●ty ounces of plate . we had it from mr. secretary trumbals office , we did not seize it , but fo●nd it in his office , and brought it down . l. c. j. holt. he must have it again , he ought to have wherewithal to subsist , and for his necessar● support while in prison ; let the plate be sold , for his support while he is in prison . care shall be ●aken of it , sir william . sir william parkins my lord , i have nothing to subsist on , unless i can make something of what is there . my wife lacks necessaries , and i have four children , and we have nothing to subsist on . l. c. j. holt. had you sent and complained of this before , care should have been taken about it . sir w. parkins . my lord , i was told there was a petition to your lordship , and they talkt of an order from the council ; but when i came to inquire , there was no order of council , only to search and examine it . l. c. j. holt. i heard nothing of it , let the money be advanced ; care shall be taken of it . sir w. parkins . i thank your lordship . cl. of the cr. sir william parkins , hold up thy hand ; which he did . thou standest indicted , &c. the substance of the indictment . london , ss . the jurors , &c. present . that whereas an open , notorious , publick and cruel war for a great time hath been , and yet is carried on and prosecuted by land and by sea by lewis the french king , against the most serene , illustrious and excellent prince , our lord , william the third , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c. during all which time the said lew is the french king , and his subjects , were , and yet are enemies of our said sovereign lord the king , and his subjects , one sir william parkins , late of the county of middlesex , a subject of this kingdom of england , well knowing the premisses , the fear of god in his heart not having , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , as a false traytor against the said most serene and excellent prince , william the third now king of england , &c. his supream , true , natural and vndoubted lord , the cordial love , and true and due obedience and allegiance which every subject of our said lord the king towards him doth bear , and of right ought to bear , withdrawing and intending to extinguish , and minding , and with all his strongth designing and endeavouring the government of this kingdom of england , under him of right duly and happily established , altogether to subvert , change and alter , and his faithful subjects and freemen of this kingdom of england to subjugate and enthrall , in an intolerable and miserable servitude to the french king , on the first of july , in the seventh year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king , and divers other dayes and times , as well before as afterwards , in covent-garden and elsewhere , in the county of middlesex , falsly , maliciously , devilishly and traiterously , did compass , imagine , contrive and intend , our said sovereign lord the king that now is , then his supream , true , natural and lawful lord , of and from his regal state , title , honour , power , crown imperial and government of this kingdom of england , to depose and altogether deprive , and him to kill and murder ; and to move excite and procure , and aid the said lewis the french king and his army , this kingdom to invade , &c. and to make and cause a miserable slaughter amongst the faithful subjects of our said sovereign lord the king. and that he the said william parkins to the said enemies of our said sovereign lord the king , then and there , was adhering and assisting ; and the same most wicked and devilish treasons , &c. to fulfil , &c. and in prosecution , &c. of that traiterous adhesion , he the said william parkins as such a false traitor during the war afo●esaid , ( viz. ) upon the first day of july in the year aforesaid , and at other dayes and tim●s , as well before as afterward , in covent-garden and elsewhere in the county of middlesex , ●id falsly , maliciously , &c. and with force and arms with one robert charnock , lately convi●ted of treason , and with divers other false traytors , to the jurors aforesaid unknown , did m●et , propose , consult , and agree , to procure from the said lewis the french king , forces , ●ubjects and souldiers , great numbers , &c. this kingdom of england to invade ; and to levy , ●rocure and prepare great armies and armed men against our said sovereign lord the king , ●● be raised and formed ; and with the enemies aforesaid , to and upon such invasion and ingress● into this kingdom of england , to joyn and unite rebellion and war against our said sovereign lord the king , within this kingdom of england , to make , levy , and wage , our said sovereign lord the king to depose , &c. and further , with the said false traytors , on the first day of july in the year aforesaid , in covent-garden aforesaid , traiterously did consult , consent and ●gree , to send the said robert charnock , as a messenger from him the said sir william parkins , and the said other traytors , to the jurors unknown , to and into the kingdom of france , &c. to the late king james , to propose , ask and obtain from the said lewis the french king , the forces and armed men aforesaid , for the invasion aforesaid to be made , and to give and deliver to the said king james , and other the said enemies and their adherents , intelligence and notice of such traiterous intentions and adhesion , and all other particular matters , &c. relating thereunto : and also intelligence from them of the said intended invasion , and other things and circumstances concerning the premisses to receive , &c. and in order to the better assistance , &c. of the said enemies of our said sovereign lord king william , in the war aforesaid : and to excite and procure the said enemies of our said sovereign lord the king , the more readily and boldly to invade this kingdom of england , and the said treasons , &c. of him the said sir william parkins , to perfect and bring to pass , &c. he the said sir william parkins during the war aforesaid , did ( viz. ) on the th day of february , with the said robert charnock and others , meet , consult , &c. our said sovereign lord king william , by lying in wait to assassinate , kill and murder ; and this execrable assassination the easier to fulfil and bring to pass , did prepare and consult with other false traytors , of the wayes , means and methods , and of the time and place when and where , and in what manner , viz. by lying in wait they might more easily kill and slay our said sovereign lord the king ; and did consent and agree with the said false traytors , that forty men and horses , part of the traytors aforesaid , some of them by the said sir william parkins to be procured , with musquets , carbines and pistols , charged with gunpowder , and loaden with bullets , and with swords and other arms , to lye in wait and ambush against our said sovereign lord the king in his coach , being when he should go abroad a hunting , to set upon and murder , while others so armed , the guards attending upon him should kill and murder : and that he did take upon him to provide five horses for those men who should kill and murder our said sovereign lord the king : and also that he the said sir william parkins , the said treason and trayterous conspiracies to execute , &c. afterward , to wit , the day and year last abovesaid , divers arms , musquets , carbines , swords , and other arms , &c. falsly , maliciously , secretly and trayterously , did obtain and buy , collect and procure , and cause to be obtained , &c. and in his custody had and kept , with intention the same in and about the detestable , horrid and execrable assassination , killing and murdering of our said sovereign lord the king , and in the said invasion to employ . and also the said trayterous imaginations the better to bring to pass , he the said sir william parkins , in the parish aforesaid , divers souldiers and armed men , and men ready to be armed when the said assassination should be , did levy , enroll and retain , and cause to be levyed , enrolled and retained : and those said souldiers and armed men thus levyed , enrolled and retained , the treasons aforesaid to bring to pass , then and there ordered to be in a readiness to be used and imployed , &c. against the duty of his allegiance , and against the peace of our said sovereign lord the king that now is , his crown and dignity ; as also against the form of the statute in that case made and provided . cl. of cr. how say'st thou , sir william parkins , art thou guilty of this high treason , whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? sir w. parkins . not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? sir w. parkins . by god and my countrey . cl. of the cr. god send thee a good deliverance . sir w. parkins , i beg your lordships favour for a word or two . my lord , i have been kept in hard prison . i was committed , and no body was permitted to come to me till friday last . and being here charged with divers facts , it was necessary for me to have divers witnesses ; and they are disperst : and therefore i beg of your lordship that my tryal may be put off , that i may get my witnesses together . l. c. j. holt. when had you notice of your tryal ? sir w. parkins . on wednesday last in the afternoon i had notice , and not before then . but being kept so close prisoner , i had not the opportunity of any council till friday at noon ; and then it being but two days , and i in distress and hardship , it was impossible for me to get my witnesses together . l. c. j. holt. what witnesses do you want ? sir w. parkins . i have divers witnesses to prove where i was from time to time , when these things were done that are charged upon me ; but they are out of town , and i cannot get them together in so short a time . l. c. j. holt. when had he notice ? mr. baker . he had notice on wednesday last in the afternoon . mr. sollicitor gen. mr. baker , how was it that he had not counsel sooner ? mr. baker . i told him last wednesday , that i would procure an order for counsel , and he should have it the next morning ; and mr. burley came to me the next morning , and had the order . l. c. j. holt. you were told on wednesday you might have what counsel you would , and you had an order on thursday . sir w. parkins . my lord , i could not have any , without application to the court at white-hall , and no body came to me , and it was friday before any body came to me . l. c. j. holt. you had your sollicitor , you might have imployed some body , and have sent for your witnesses ; you might have told your sollicitor , and he would have come to me . sir w. parkins . i could not get him till thursday , and i had no body to send . l. c. j. holt , if you had spoke to the keeper , he would have sent . sir w. parkins . i did it as soon as i could : the keeper was not always in the way . it was execution day , and he was not at home that day . l. c. j. holt. you say you have divers witnesses , but name none . how long is it since you were committed ? sir w. parkins . this day fortnight i was committed : a fortnight ago , my lord. l. c. j. h. and the commitment charges you with high treason . were you not committed for high treason ? sir w. parkins . i never saw the commitment . mr. sollicitor gen. my lord , he had fair time ; for he saw his name in the proclamation long before he was committed : he might have prepared from that time . l. c. j. h. the keeper dare not keep a copy of the commitment from you ; you might have had a copy of it . sir w. parkins . no body was permitted to come to me , if i had had it , but the very goaler . mr. baker . i gave sir william notice of his tryal ; and he said , the time was short , and he would petition for longer time . i told him it was appointed for that time , and that i did believe he would not have longer time given him . l. c. j. h. we do not see any reason to put off the tryal upon these suggestions . sir w. parkins . my lord it is very hard . i humbly beg the favour that i may have counsel allowed me . i have no skill in indictments , i have no understanding in these matters ; i beg your lordship to assign me counsel . l. c. j. h. you are not ignorant , that counsel has always been refused , when desired in these cases . sir w. parkins . here is a new act of parliament lately made . l. c. j. h. that act does not yet commence . sir w. parkins . it wants but one day . l. c. j. h. it is not in our power to take notice of it sooner : we cannot make it commence a day before the time . sir w. parkins . will your lordship please that it may be read ? l. c. j. h. you shall have it read , if you will. sir w. parkins . if your lordship please . then the act was read accordingly . l. c. j. h. sir william , this law has no effect as yet ; but the law stands as it did before the making of that act. sir w. parkins . it is reasonable that i should have counsel . l. c. j. h. but , sir william , we must go according to law. sir w. parkins . my lord , the law is grounded upon reason ; and i have had such short notice , that i could not have time to prepare to make my defence . i hope that which will be reasonable to morrow , is so to day : and no doubt your lordship may order it , especially when your lordship sees how straight it is upon me , that i cannot make my defence . l. c. j. h. we cannot go against law : we cannot make a law , but must go according to it . sir w. parkins . but it is just and reasonable , the act savs . l. c. j. holt. the parliament have thought fit to make such a law to commence the th of this month ; and it is not law , till the parliament have appointed it to be law , and we cannot make it commence before . sir w. parkins . if i had had convenient notice , i had been within the compass of that act , and there is no other man can want the benefit of that act but my self . l. c. j. holt. we cannot alter the law , but are bound by our oaths to proceed according to the law that is in being at present . sir w. parkins . pray , my lord , may not the trial be put off for some little time ? i am utterly unprovided for making my defence . l. c. j. holt. you do not name any witnesses that you want , nor the time you can have them in . sir w. parkins . i will name both , if you please , my lord. mr. att. gen. you have had as much notice as any have had . l. c. j. holt. you have had as much notice as sir john friend had yesterday . mr. att. gen. and as much as is necessary , even after the act of parliament takes effect . sir. w. parkins . sir. j. friend was charged with single facts , about the time ; and i am charged with many things , much more particular , than he was . mr. sol. gen. my lord , this act does not meddle with notice of trial , but it continues the same as it was before . l. c. j. holt. no , nothing at all . sir w. parkins . my lord , i hope you will be my counsel . l. c. j. holt. so we will , and do you all the right we can . then the petty jury impannelled for his trial was called , and the prisoner was informed by the court that he might challenge , without cause shewn , and as many as he would , assigning a good cause . accordingly the prisoner , amongst others challenged two , assigning as a cause , that they were the king's servants . but he was told by the court that that was no cause of challenge ; but the king's counsel did not insist on that , if there were enough besides . and this was said , that it might not go for a precedent , that this is a sufficient reason for a challenge . the twelve that were sworn , were , william northee , tho. edlin , edward gold , robert sanderson , daniel thomas , ralph marsh , henry whitchcott , joseph whiston , robert bampton , tho. ems , of stanhopp . tho. sutton . nicholas rufford . after which , proclamation for information was made in usual manner . cl. of the cr. sir. w. parkins , hold up thy hand , ( which he did ; ) you gentlemen of the jury look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause : he stands indicted by the name of sir william parkins , &c. for that he as a false traitor , &c. ( where the indictment was again read . ) upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto hath pleaded not guilty . your charge is to enquire whether he be guilty of the high treason , whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty . if you find him guilty , then you are to inquire what goods or chattels , lands or tenements he had at the time of the high treason committed , or at any time since . if you find him not guilty , you are to enquire whether he fled for it : if you find that he fled for it , you are to enquire of his goods and chattels , as if you had found him guilty : if you find him not guilty , nor that he did fly for it , say so , and no more . now hear your evidence . sir w. parkins . my lord. l. c. j. holt. what say you , sir william ? sir w. parkins . you were pleased to say that you would be my counsel . if your lordship sees any fault in my indictment that may be any advantage to me i desire your lordship to inform me . l. c. j. holt , i have read it , and i observe none . mr. mountague . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , this indictment does contain as heavy an accusation as ever was brought against any one : for it charges the prisoner not only with the traiterous design of subverting the government , and of killing the king ; but also it charges the prisoner with designing an invasion upon these kingdoms , and an assassination of the king's person . the indictment sets forth , that the prisoner did meet with mr. charnock and other false traitors ; and there it was agreed how to procure some french forces to land here in england , and also to raise a rebellion against his majesty within this kingdom . mr. charnock was sent as a messenger from the prisoner and the rest , over to the late king james , to acquaint him with this bloody design , and to desire him to procure and borrow of the french king as many forces as he could spare , to make this descent upon these kingdoms : and to facilitate his descent , they promised to get as many together as they could , to meet him upon his landing . and it was agreed that forty men should be provided , of which the prisoner was one , to lie in wait , and set upon the king in his return from hunting , and to assassinate him . some were to fall upon the guards , while others murdered the king in his coach. the indictment further charges the prisoner with providing several horses and arms , and that he did provide five horses for them that were to commit the assassination . and the indictment also does charge the prisoner with getting together several arms. to this indictment the prisoner has pleaded not guilty . if you do not believe him guilty of what the indictment charges him with , god forbid but he should be acquitted . but if you believe him guilty , the nation does expect you should do justice to the king and kingdom . mr. att. gen. my lord , and you gentlemen of the jury , the prisoner , sir william parkins , stands indicted of high treason , for compassing and endeavouring the death of the king , and adhering to his majesty's enemies . the overt-acts laid in the indictment to prove this treason are these ; that the prisoner , together with several others , had several meetings and consultations , wherein it was agreed to send a messenger over to invite the french king to invade this kingdom , and to depose the king , and subject this kingdom to the tyranny of a french power . and further , that he entred into a conspiracy with several persons to murder his majesty . these are the overt-acts to prove this treason against the prisoner . the evidence to prove this will be in this manner : it will appear , that the prisoner had a commission from the late k. james to raise a regiment of horse in england ; and that in may last the prisoner had a meeting with several others at the old king's-head in leadenhall-street , where there were present the lord ailesbury , the lord montgomery , sir john friend , sir john fenwick , sir william parkyns , mr. charnock , capt. porter , mr. cook ; and mr. goodman came in after dinner . at that meeting it was consulted among them , how they should bring back the late king james , and depose his present majesty king william . and in order to that , did resolve to send a messenger , mr. charnock , one of them , to the late king james , to desire him that he would obtain from the french king about ten thousand men to invade this kingdom ; eight thousand foot , a thousand horse , and a thousand dragoons : and to incourage the late king james to do this , they did assure him by their messenger , they would meet him with two thousand horse upon his landing . they all agreed they would do this , and mr. charnock did agree to go upon this errand . about a week after mr. charnock not being willing to go without good assurance from them that sent him , did desire there might be another meeting . and accordingly there was another meeting of the same persons , of which the prisoner was one ; and that was at mrs. mountjoy's , a tavern in james-street . and at that meeting they did all agree , as formerly , to continue the resolution they had taken , to send mr. charnock over to the late king james , to assure him of their assistance , if he would give them notice when and where he would land . and they did take notice , that that was a very proper time for such an invasion to be attempted ; for the king was then gone into flanders , and most of the forces were drawn thither , and the people very much dissatisfied ; and therefore it would be very easy to accomplish such a design at that time . and they did therefore desire mr. charnock to go upon that errand , and to desire that the late king james would be speedy in his coming . after a few days mr. charnock did go to france , and delivered his message to the late king james , who took it very kindly , but said , the french king could not spare so many forces at that time . and he came over again , and brought that message to those gentlemen that sent him . this was in may or june last , and so the conspiracy ceased at that time . but you will hear , last winter it was revived again , and was attempted and carried on very near to a fatal success . you will hear , gentlemen , that the prisoner at the bar has had as great a hand as any in this barbarous conspiracy and treason ; not only in the invasion that he and the rest sent the messenger over to procure , but in the blackest part , the assassination of the king. about january last sir g. berclay , lieutenant of the guards to the late king james in france , was sent over into england , to excite persons to go on in the assassinating of the king ; and for his assistance there were sent over , before and after him , about twenty troopers of the late king james's guards in france : and sir g. berclay , to incourage persons to ingage in this horrid conspiracy , brought over with him a pretended authority from the late king james to justify them ; and that was a commission from the late king james . he communicates this design of his to mr. charnock , capt. porter , and others ; and amongst the rest to the prisoner at the bar , having a great confidence in him . he did acquaint him he had such a commission , and shewed it him ; and that the commission was to levy war against the king's person , which they took as a sufficient authority to attack his person . in order to the accomplishing this horrid conspiracy , several meetings there were , at which the prisoner was present , and very active , sometimes at capt. porter's lodgings , at other times at the nag's-head in covent-garden , and the sun-tavern in the strand . you will hear , that at these meetings they did propose several ways and methods to accomplish this conspiracy ; and several persons , some of which have suffered the just punishment of the law , were appointed to go and view the ground , where most conveniently the king's person might be assaulted . king , that has been executed for it , and capt. porter , and one knightly , went to view the ground , to see the most convenient place . and the day before they went , there was a meeting , at which was present the prisoner and several others , where it was resolved upon , that they should go and view the ground ; and capt. porter , mr. knightly , and mr. king , accordingly went to see the most convenient place . after that , at brentford , they went over to richmond , where his majesty used to go a hunting to divert himself . at last they pitch'd upon a place , a lane between brentford and turnham-green , and they thought that a convenient place for doing this barbarous thing . and when they had viewed the ground , they were to come back in the evening to the nag's-head-tavern , where the rest were to meet , to give them an account of their proceedings . accordingly in the evening they came back , and at the said place were the prisoner , sir g. berclay , mr. charnock , and others ; and there they had an account of the thing , and they did resolve it should be done in that place ; and the manner was this , that sir g. berclay , with seven or eight chosen out of the rest , were to attack the king's coach , and ( to kill the king , while the other party were to attack the guards ; and the number in all was to be about forty . this was agreed upon . and the first time they agreed upon to put this barbarous design in execution , was the th of february , upon a saturday , the day the king usually went a hunting . but it happened , by very great providence , that the king did not go abroad that day . they contrived further , to make the thing very sure , that there should be two persons , whom they called orderly men , that should be placed at kensington , to give notice when the king went abroad , one chambers , and durance a fleming . and afterwards durance was likewise imployed to view the place at turnham-green and to take notice of those places that were most convenient for the lodging and placing of their men two or three in a house , that they might not be observed to be in a readiness the day they were to accomplish their design . now the th of february , they being disappointed by the king 's not going abroad , they resolved to accomplish it upon the saturday following , the king usually going a hunting upon saturdays , and therefore that day was pitch'd upon . accordingly on the friday following there was another meeting at the nags-head in covent-garden , where were present sir george berclay , captain porter , mr. charnock , and the prisoner . there they had some discourse , and were in doubt , because of the first disappointment they had received , whether there were not some discovery , and the thing taken air ; but they were soon resolved of that , for it was said , if the thing had been discovered they should not have been there to meet ; that seemed very probable , and gave them new assurance that they were not discovered ; and thereupon they resolved to put it in execution the next day , the day which they had before resolved on , being saturday the d of february , and to do it in the same manner as had been resolved on before . at that meeting captain porter told them he had had a misfortune , that some of the horses he had undertaken to provide were fallen lame ; he acquainted the prisoner , sir william parkins , with it ; and he was careful to supply him with other horses , and told him he could get him a note to one lewis , master of the horse to the lord feversham , for three horses out of his stable ; and accordingly did send him a note for three horses to be had from thence . february the ●d in the morning , the time appointed to put it in execution , they met together , and had notice from kensington that the king did go a hunting ; and then there was great joy among them all , for then they thought they should be sure to accomplish their design , and so they ordered all things to be got ready . but afterwards , about twelve a clock , news came that the king did not go abroad , that the coaches were come back , and the horses all of a foam ; and then they thought it had taken air , and that they were discovered , and that put them into a great consternation . now , gentlemen , this is the account you will have by the evidence , of the conspiracy for assassinating the king , at the several meetings at which the prisoner was present . there will be a little more evidence if there be occasion , to confirm this , as to the part the prisoner had in this barbarous conspiracy : for it will appear to you , gentlemen , the prisoner had a commission from the late king james to raise a regiment of horse , and had sent a messenger on purpose to invite the late kings james over about may or june last , and he had provided many arms for that purpose . about michaelmas last he sent a parcel of choice goods , as he called them , put into several cases , there were seven or eight of them ; and they were put into three large cases , and sent by his order from his house in warwickshire , to one heywood's . it seems this heywood married mr. charnock's sister , and mr. charnock sent a lettter to heywood , to desire him to lodg some goods in his house of sir william parkins's , for he durst not trust them in his own house in warwickshire , because he had no servants to look after them , and did desire they might be lodged in his house , and he gave him a letter directed to heywood . and they were accordingly carried to heywood's , and locked up , and privately kept till this horrid conspiracy came out : and then the prisoner sent his own servant down the tuesday after the discovery , and gave him order immediately to go down to warwickshire , to one evans his servant there , to desire him to remove all those goods away with all expedition , and to secure and hide them . accordingly on wednesday , the day after , he came thither , and acquainted evans with his message ; and they went on ash-wednesday in the dark with a cart , and they were desired to stay till the next day ; but they could not stay longer , but would have the goods removed that very night ; and accordingly they were carried from thence to sir william parkins's house , and they were buried in the ground to preserve them , being goods of very great value . but afterwards search being made in sir william's house , and when they came to be discovered , and the cases broke open , you will hear they were goods of great concern , of an extraordinary nature , carbines , cases of pistels , and dozen of swords : so that this will make it apparent without dispute , how far the prisoner has ingaged in levying of war , and encouraging an invasion . further it will appear upon the prisoner , that he had a considerable number of horses at his house in hertfordshire , for he had another house at bushy in hertfordshire ; some of these were brought up to the george-inn in holburn . but there is another thing i must open to you before that of the horses : about christmas last the prisoner did acquaint one mr. sweet , an officer of the excise , ( i am very sorry we should have any officers any where trusted with high-treason , as he was ) the prisoner gave him an account , that he had assurance formerly that the late k. james would land , but now he had it under his own hand that he would land speedily ; and he had made preparation on purpose to meet him , and that great things were expected from him , and that he had his own troop ready that consisted chiefly of old soldiers , and several persons would be voluntiers under him . he told him he was to go into leicestershire , and that there were several gentlemen from the north and the west to meet together , to settle a correspondence , and to consult of methods how to meet the late king upon his landing . and accordingly he did go , and you will have an account he came to leicester on friday night , and captain scudmore went with him , and he staied all saturday , and part of sunday . and while he was there , there came several persons to him , particularly capt. yarborough son of sir thomas yarborough , and another person with him ; they came as far as york to meet with the prisoner at leicester and several other persons , and there was a great resort to them at leicester at that time. sir william parkins came back to bushy on monday night , and acquainted sweet again , that he had been his journey to leicester , and met several gentlemen from the north and the west , and found them all fully engaged in the design for the service of the late king james , and that there was no danger of the miscarrying of it ; this was in january last that this expedition was made by the prisoner . afterwards you will have a farther account of the horses of the prisoner , it was very unfortunate that those horses were generally brought to town the evening before the day the king was to be assassinated . feb. . sir w. parkins being in town the day before , sent to his groom to bring up three of his horses the th of february in the afternoon ; which horses were all furnished for troopers , and had saddles and pistols for that purpose : and his servant brought them according to his order , and acquainted him friday in the afternoon , february the th that he had brought them ( he lodged in norfolk street with mr. charnock ) ; sir w. parkins pretended to him at first , that he would go out of town that evenening ; but then changed his mind , and told him he must get them ready on saturday the th , the first day the assassination was intended : and in the morning , when his man came to him to know when his horses were to be got ready , he told him he had changed his mind , he would not go that day , he would not go out of town till monday ; for the design miscarried by the king 's not going abroad ; and then major homes , who was one of the conspirators , went out of town with him , as you will hear , and they came to town again the th of february , which was the day before the day of the intended assassination ; then there were more horses brought up , four or five , and all of them with pistols , jack-boots , and other furniture proper for troopers . they came up on friday to the george , and the prisoner gave order to this particular servant that came up with him , james ewbanck , who was his groom , to go very early the next morning to kensington , it was saturday the th , and he was to go to one brown , as he said , that was concerned in the king's kitchin or his confectionary , and lived about two doors above the gate turning to the king's house ; and that he was to tell him he was sir w. parkins servant , and that he came from a man that lodged at a confectioners house over against grays-inn , which , by the description of the person , will appear to be sir george berclay , and he would give him an answer . the man went accordingly about eight a clock , and spoke with this brown , and told him that he was sir w. parkins's man , and that he came from the gentleman that lodged at the confectioners over against grays-inn . brown said he had nothing to say to him , but bid him give him his almanack , and wrote in it , that he would be in town himself in two hours , and bid him to carry that to the man that lodged at the confectioners's . this man you will hear was one of those orderly men lodged at kensington to give notice ; this man went by the name of chambers , he will tell you what he was , he was a scotchman , spoke very broad , by which it will appear very particularly and plainly it was sir george berclay . this servant came back to his master , sir w. parkins asked him what he had done ; he told him that he had been at kensington , and that brown had set it down in his almanack , that he would be in town himself in two hours . sir w. parkins bid him go to the gentleman at the confectioner's , and tell him so much : and accordingly he went , and brought word to sir w. parkins , that the gentleman would be ready at home . now you will find this was on saturday morning . about eleven a clock captain porter , with one mr. lewis that i mentioned before , came to the george-inn ; and there porter asked this groom one ewbank , whether he had received above two saddles or no , for there had been orders given for two and twenty saddles to be carried to the george-inn by sir w. parkins's order to furnish other horses besides his , for sir w. parkins had told his groom there were other horses of his friends that stood there , and bid him take care to see them well fed . the th of february when they came thither , they thought there had been more saddles delivered than those two , and he asked his groom if he had no more than two saddles delivered ; no , says he , i had but two . now gentlemen , by the evidence you will see he had provided thirty saddles , under the notion of buying them for the use of the marquess of regiment ; then , says sir w. parkins , there is a mistake , i have had but two and twenty of the thirty , for there is but two brought in here . this you will hear fully proved by the evidence that will be given against the prisoner . and that there may be no room to doubt but that the prisoner was engaged in this horrid conspiracy , it will be proved to you by his servants , so many of his horses coming up that day , with pistols and jack-boots , and other arms , upon friday at four a clock ; and that on saturday , after they were discovered and disappointed , they ordered all away in great hurry and confusion . i have opened and stated to you the nature of the evidence , we shall call our witnesses and give you no further trouble . call captain porter , ( who appeared and was sworn ) mr. attorn . gen. mr. porter , will you give the court and jury an account of your meeting at the king's-head-tavern in leadenhall-street , who were there , and what the meeting was about , and what was there agreed upon ? capt. porter . about the latter end of may , or beginning of june , we had two meetings , one at the old king's-head , in leadenhall-street , and the other at mrs. mountjoys at the wonder-tavern in james's-street . there was the lord aylisbury , lord mountgomery , sir jo freind , sir w. parkins , sir jo. fenwick , mr. charnock , and one cook , and my self ; mr. goodman came in after dinner . there we consulted which was the best way for the late king james to come in again ; and all resolved to send a messenger over to him , to desire him to procure of the french king men , viz. horse , dragoons , and foot : mr. charnock said , if you send me over , what shall i tell him you will do ? we all promised him , if the late king would come over with such a number of men , we would meet him at the head of horse , wheresoever he would appoint us to meet him . mr. attorn . gen. before you go upon the second meeting , did sir w. parkins agree to that message ? by what circumstance do you know that he agreed to it ? capt. porter . mr. charnock said he would not go upon a foolish message , and therefore did put it to them again what they would do ; and we did all agree , every one , to be at the head of horse to meet the late king james on his landing . mr. cooper . did sir w. parkins agree to that ? capt. porter . yes , sir , he did . mr. attorn . gen. where was the second meeting ? go on to that . capt. porter . the second meeting was at mrs. mountjoy's , where mr. charnock was , and desired to see us before he went away , and to know our resolutions , whether we were all agreed to what we had before resolved ; and we all promised him as before ; and then he said he would go in two or three days . mr. attorn . gen. and did they agree to it ? capt. porter . yes , they did . mr. attorn . gen. did they agree to their former resolution taken at the first meeting ? capt. porter . they did all agree to it . mr. attorn . gen. who was there ? capt porter . i cannot say the lord mountgomery and mr. goodman were there , but all the rest were there that were at the first meeting . mr. attorn . gen. when did you speak with mr. charnock ? capt. porter . three or four days before i was brought to prison about the riot , and he told me he had been with the lord aylisbury and sir w. parkins , and the rest of them that sent him , and brought several messages from the late king james to them . mr. attorn . gen. now give an account of the effect of that message . capt. porter . mr. charnock told me , king james said the french king could not spare so many men that year . mr. attorn . gen. mr. porter , give an account of the design for assassinating of the king , and what part the prisoner at the bar had in it . capt. porter . some weeks before i heard of this designed assassination , i came to lodge at a house in norfolk-street , where mr. charnock lay , and sir w. parkins for the most part when he was in town ; and most commonly in an evening mr. charnock and i used to go to drink a bottle . one morning i was going out , and met him , and ask'd him where i should meet him at night ? he told me he should be in private company . must not i be there , said i ? if it be not very private , let me go with you . no , says he , some gentlemen are come over from france , and the business is kept very private , there is something going to be done . then pray , said i , let me be concerned in it . says he , they see no body yet ; in a little time you will hear more of it . a little while after i was taken with the gout , and mr. charnock came to see me , and told me , sir george berclay was come from france , and several officers with him , and that he had a commission from the late king james to raise and levy war against the body , upon the person of king william . l. c. j. holt. who told you so ? capt. porter . mr. charnock . he ask't me whether i could procure any number of men ? i said a great many would , but i could not trust them . some days after they brought me to sir g. berclay and one homes , a little while after i was got well of the gout . and then there were several meetings , one at the globe tavern , one at the nags-head , where sir w. parkins was present , one at the sun tavern in the strand , where we consulted the best way to assassinate the king as he came from richmond . mr. charnock told me , that sir g. berclay had received l. of the late king james's secretary to buy horses and furniture for the expedition . mr. charnock asked me how many i could bring ? he told me , he could bring in twenty . i told him i could bring seven or eight . sir w. parkins was to furnish five horses , and to mount three of them with his own men , and the other two were to be mounted with my men , and mr. charnock was to mount the rest . mr. attorn . gen. do you know the names of the men he was to mount ? capt. porter . i never had the names of the men from himself . mr. attorn . gen. what was done in this consult ? capt. porter . i ask'd mr. charnock why i might not see the commission ; he said he never saw it himself , but sir w. parkins had seen it . i ask'd sir w. parkins , smoaking a pipe , whether he had seen it ; he told me he had seen and read it , that it was for raising of war against the prince of orange , and it was all written with his own hand . mr. attorn . gen. you went to view the ground , did you not ? give an account of that . capt. porter . one of us went on the other side of the water to view the ground , by a little wood ; and another went on this side the water . sir george berclay was of opinion that it was best on the other side of the water ; he ordered one captain knightly to meet me and capt. king ; we three went to view the ground ; and when we came back to the nags-head , where was sir w. parkins , mr. charnock , and sir g. berclay , we told them we had view'd those places , and lik'd them very well . mr. attorn . gen. was sir william parkins there at that meeting ? capt. porter . yes sir , he was . mr. attorn . gen. mr. porter , give an account of the days you intended to do it . capt. porter . saturday the th and the d , the days the king used to go a hunting . mr. attorn . gen. was there any man at kensington to give notice ? capt. porter . yes , there were two men ; one of them had his lodging at kensington . mr. attorn . gen. what was his name ? capt. porter . chambers : and there was another man , a fleming , who went every day to thrust himself among the guards , to bring us intelligence daily . mr. attorn . gen. what was the reason it was not executed the first day ? capt. porter . durant brought us notice the guards were gone ; but afterwards notice was brought us that the king did not go ; upon which we adjourned till the next day . mr. attorn . gen. what was the method agreed upon ? mr. porter . the method was this . one rookwood , that came out of france upon this expedition , to head another party , mounted upon sir g. berclay's horse , sir g. berclay and my self were to mount those horses sent us by sir w. parkins , and we were to attack the guards and the king's coach. mr. attorn . gen. when was the next meeting , after you were disappointed ? capt. porter . it was upon friday before the d , at the sun tavern in the strand . mr. attorn . gen. who was there at that meeting ? capt. porter . no body but sir g. berclay , mr. charnock , sir w. parkins , and my self . mr. attorn . gen. and what was discoursed of then ? capt. porter . sir w. parkins came in , and told us the thing was discovered . i said , i cannot fancy it could be discovered , for we could not have been there if it had been known ; and thereupon we resolved to go on with it again : and i asked sir w. parkins if his horses were in town ? and he said they were to come that night . said i , my horses are one sick , and another lame . said sir w. parkins , if i had known that , i could have brought more horses out of the country ; but just now i have sent to mr. lewis , master of the horse to the lord feversham , i believe he will help me to more horses . and i sent a note to sir w. parkins for two horses to mount my men upon ; and he sent me two horses , and told me mr. lewis would help me to two or three more , all three lusty horses ; one was accoutred with pistols , and the other had only saddles . mr. attorn . gen. did you see sir w. parkins ? capt. porter . i did not see him the d : some of us did meet at the blue posts at spring-garden , and having notice that the thing was discovered , i went out of town . mr. attorn . gen. have you ever heard that sir w. parkins had a commission from the late king james ? capt. porter . i heard mr. charnock ask him one night why scudmore and the rest would not go ? said he , they do not go , because i do not go ; and i have other business to do , i have a regiment to look after . mr. attorn . gen. then the prisonner was to be one of the number to assassinate the king. capt. porter . not in person , for he said he had other business to look after . l. c. j. holt. mr. porter , how many horses had you from mr. lewis ? capt. porter . i had none ; but only sir w. parkins sent me word , if i wanted any i might have three ; for i told him i would have none till i heard the king went. l. c. j. holt. had you a note for the three horses ? sir w. parkins . not from me . capt. porter . mr. cranborn told me he had a note ; i do not say i had a note . mr. att. gen. sir william , will you ask the witness any questions ? jury-man . we are desirous to know , whether at any of the meetings the discourse was to assassinate the king ? capt. porter . at all the meetings . l. c. j. holt. did sir w. parkins discourse of the assassination himself ? what did he say when such discourses were had ? capt. porter . i cannot say particularly what he said : but he agreed to it , and said it was very necessary to be done , in order to the bringing in the late king the more easily ; but he had other business to do , and could not be there himself . mr. attorn . gen. will you ask him any questions ? mr. baker . captain porter , stand down . then adrian sweet was sworn . mr. sol. mr. sweet , will you give the court and jury an account what sir w. parkins said to you about the late king james's landing ? mr. attorn . gen. what you know of the prisoner relating to that , and what discourse you had about the late king james's landing . mr. sweet . he told me he did expect the late king james's landing this summer ; and sir w. parkins did say his own troop was composed of old soldiers . mr. attorn . gen. let me ask you a little : how long have you known sir w. parkins ? mr. sweet . about three years . mr. attorn . gen. what time was this discourse ? mr. sweet . about christmas last . mr. attorn . gen. where was it ? mr. sweet . at his own house . mr. attorn . gen. what was it he said to you about this matter ? mr. sweet . we were talking of the late king james's coming . l. c. j. holt. what did he say ? mr. sweet . he said he had bought saddles , and that his own troop was composed of all old soldiers . mr. attorn . gen. but did he tell you of any assurance he had of king james's landing ? mr. sweet . yes , he said he had the king's word for it . mr. attorn . gen. was there any discourse of his going into leicestershire ? mr. sweet . yes , he told me he was going into leicestershire to meet some friends , and he did go : for afterwards he told me he had met them , and that all was well , and that the west was as well inclined to k. james's interest as the north , and that a lord's brother was concerned . mr. attorn . gen. what other discourse had you about this matter ? mr. sweet . nothing more as to particulars . mr. attorn . gen. what orders had you to come up to town ? why do not you tell it ? mr. sweet . i will as soon as i can . sir w. parkins sent me a letter about the th of february , that i should come to him the next day , and i came the next day to sir william , into norfolk-street . mr. attorn . gen. where was it ? mr. sweet . at mrs. knoxes , where mr. charnock lodged . he told me the business he had designed for me , he did not think fit i should do , because of my family . mr. attorn . gen. what directions had you from him when you went into the country ? mr. sweet . he gave me orders to go to his lady with directions to send up three of his strongest horses . mr. attorn . gen. when was this ? mr. sweet . in february , about the th or th day . and at my going away sir w. parkins told me , if i had not a letter from him the friday following , i should come to town again ; and he askt me if i had made provision for my family ; i told him i had not : thereupon he was angry , and said i might go into the country again then . mr. attorn . gen. when was this ? mr. sweet . friday night or saturday morning . mr. attorn . gen. what day of the month ? mr. sweet . the th or th . l. c. j. holt. you say you came wednesday the th : wednesday was the th . mr. sweet . i came on friday night , on saturday morning i went home again . mr. attorn . gen. but on saturday morning , who did you speak with ? did you speak with sir w. parkins ? mr. sweet . he left order i should come again at eleven a clock . there i met one chambers , whom i saw the night before , and one lee. mr. attorn . gen. you saw them the night before . mr. sweet . yes , i saw them . mr. attorn . gen. what discourse had you with them ? mr. sweet . none , but in the morning . mr. attorn . gen. what discourse had you in the morning ? mr. sweet . mr. chambers told me he had been at kensington , and saw sir william , and shewed me his wounds , and said those wounds were sore , and called for revenge . mr. attor . gen. where did he tell you he was wounded ? mr. sweet . at the boyn . mr. soll. gen. you say sir william parkins told you his troop consisted of all old souldiers , did he tell you what use his troop was for ? mr. sweet . i understood for what use , he did not tell me . mr. cooper . where did you dine that day ? mr. sweet . i dined with sir william parkins , mr. charnock , mr. chambers , and one or two more that i did not know . mr. attor . gen. sir william , will you ask him any questions ? sir w. parkins . did i tell you mr. sweet i had a troop of horse ? mr. sweet . i will name your own words , and no other ; you said your own troop was composed of old souldiers . l. c. j. holt. how many horses ? mr. sweet . i do not hear . l. c. j. holt. how many horses was you to bid his man to bring to town ? mr. sweet . three . l. c. j. holt. was it three of his strongest horses ? mr. sweet . yes , my lord , three of his strongest horses . mr. attor . gen. did he say any thing of volunteers to joyn with him ? mr. sweet . yes , he did say he knew some old officers who would be volunteers , and would go with him . sir wil. parkins . where were these words spoken ? mr. sweet . in your garden . sir wil. parkins . in what county ? mr. sweet . in hartfordshire . sir wil. parkins . then , my lord , i desire your judgment , whether words spoken in hartfordshire , will affect me here ? l. c. j. holt. if there be a design against the king , and there be several overt acts , some of them committed in one county , and others in another , the party may be indicted in either of the counties ; and then the overt-act done in one county , may be given in evidence in the other : and in this case it is requisite there should be some evidence of an overt-act in middlesex , as there is of several meetings at several taverns , in hatton-garden at the globe , the sun-tavern , and the naggs-head . now these consults are overt-acts , but still of the same treason ; and if a treason be committed in several counties , the prisoner may be indicted in any one of these counties . sir w. parkins . mr. sweet , you did not say that i told you i had raised a troop , or would raise a troop . l. c. j. holt. but he does tell you farther , he was with you , and had discourse with you in norfolk-street , where you were in company with mr. charnock , and others . sir wil. parkins . i do not observe that mr. sweet said any thing of me in norfolkstreet . mr. attor . gen. you told him that you had some particular business for him , but that you would have pity upon his family . mr. attor . gen. sir william , will you ask him any more questions ? sir wil. parkins . no , sir. mr. attor . gen. call ewbank . he appeared , and was sworn . mr. attor . gen. do you know sir william parkins ? mr. ewbank . i was his servant , a groom to him . mr. attor . gen. for how long ? mr. ewbank . not a twelvemonth . mr. attorn . gen. give an account what journey you took with sir william parkyns about christmas last . mr. ewbank . in january last i went with him into leicester shire . we went from his own house at stony-stratford , and lay there all night . mr. attor . gen. what time was this ? mr. ewbank . i do not know what time exactly . mr. attor . gen. what day of the week ? mr. ewbank . on thursday . mr. attor . gen. whither did you go from stony-stratford ? mr. ewbank . the next night we went to leicester . mr. attor . gen. and what gentlemen went with him ? mr. ewbank one captain scudmore . mr. attor . gen. you went the next day to leicester ; how long did you stay ? mr. ewbank . 'till sunday morning . mr. attor . gen. what company did you observe came to him ? mr. ewbank . i knew none of them , i was never there before ; there was one yarbury , his man said . mr. attor . gen. whence came he ? mr. ewbank . out of yorkshire . mr. attor . gen. was there another ? mr. ewbank . there was one in black cloaths , they said he was a minister . mr. attor . gen. did you see any other ? mr. ewbank . i was much about my horses , i knew no body there . mr. attor . gen. but did you see any body come ? mr. ewbank . it was market day , and several came up and down stairs , whether they went to my master or no , i cannot tell . mr. attor . gen. whither did you come when you came back from leicester-shire ? mr. ewbank . to a town called susa . mr. attor . gen. when came you back to bushy ? mr. ewbank . the night following . mr. attor . gen. who came with you ? mr. ewbank . captain scudmore . mr. attor . gen. what time did you come back ? mr. ewbank . about eight a clock on monday night . mr. attor . gen. after this , when did you bring up horses to the george inn for your master , and how many ? mr. ewbank . three horses . mr. attor . gen. what time was the first ? mr. ewbank . sometime after that , i do not know exactly . mr. attor . gen. what day of the week ? mr. ewbank . upon friday . mr. attor . gen. what month was it in ? mr. ewbank . i do not remember . mr. attor . gen. was it valentine's day ? mr. ewbank . yes , my lord. mr. attor . gen. where did you bring them ? mr. ewbank . to the george-inn . mr. attor . gen. where ? mr. ewbank . in holbourn . mr. attor . gen. were there any pistols ? mr. ewbank . no , they were left in town . mr. attor . gen. where were they left ? mr. ewbank . i do not know . mr. attor . gen. when you came to town with those three horses , did you go to your master presently , and acquaint him with it ? mr. ewbank . yes , i did . l. c. j. holt. what said he ? mr. ewbank . he said he thought he should go home that night . mr. attor . gen. did he go home , or did he change his mind ? mr. ewbank . we did not go 'till monday . mr. attor . gen. did he say he should go on saturday . mr. ewbank . he then said he would go home that night . mr. attor . gen. when did he go ? mr. ewbank . on monday . mr. attor . gen. who went with him ? mr. ewbank . major homes , a fat thick man. mr. attor . gen. he went home with him on monday , did he ? mr. ewbank . yes , sir. mr. attor . gen. when did he come to town again ? mr. ewbank . on friday morning . mr. attor . gen. how many horses did you bring up then ? mr. ewbank . four horses . mr. att. gen. who came with him then ? mr. ewbank . major homes , and i , and another servant . mr. a 〈…〉 how were those horses furnished ? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with pistols ; every horse had pistols . mr. att. gen. how were they furnished besides ? mr. ewbank . nothing besides . mr. att. gen. did you bring any boots ? mr. ewbank . none . mr. att. gen. where did you leave those horses on friday night ? mr. ewbank . at the george inn. mr. att. gen. what directions had you from your master that night , to go any where the next morning ? mr. ewbank . one came to me , and said , i must go to kensington to one brown. mr. att. gen. tell whom you were to go to . mr. ewbank . to one brown. mr. att. gen. what did he tell you that brown was ? mr. ewbank . he ordered me to go to such a place . l. c. j. holt. what place ? mr. ewbank . to a house within a door or two of the gate that goes to the king's house to one brown. mr. att. gen. did he say he belonged to the king's kitchin ? mr. ewbank . the man lay there , and the man where he lodged belonged to the king's kitchin. mr. att. gen. what was your message ? mr. ewbank . it was , that i was to tell him , i came from a gentleman that lay at the confectioners in holbourn , i knew the gentleman's face . mr. att. gen. what did he say to you ? mr. ewbank . he bid me set up my horse at the red lion , and he would come to me presently , so i called for a tankard of ale ; and when he came , i have , says he , no buisness to send ; but he writ in my almanack , i will come to town at or a clock . mr. att. gen. did you go back to him ? mr. ewbank . yes , i did , and told him what brown had set down in my almanack . mr. att. gen. what man was that , what sized man , what manner of man ? mr. ewbank . a lusty man , a great nose , wide mouth , swarthy coloured . mr. att. gen. what age ? mr. ewbank . a middle aged man. mr. att. gen. what did he say to you ? mr. ewbank . he asked me if i had been at kensington ? i said , yes ; and that mr brown had writ in my almanack , he would be in town at nine or ten a clock . he askt me whether i was going ? i said to my master ; and he bid me tell my master , he would be at his chamber at nine or ten a clock . mr. att. gen. what said your master to you ? mr. ewbank . he bid me get the horses ready , for he would go home about two or three a clock in the afternoon . mr. att. gen. what time came your master to the inn ? mr. ewbank . about or a clock . mr. att. gen. who came with him ? mr. ewbank . one lewis . mr. att. gen. did you know him ? what is he ? mr. ewbank . i had seen him before . mr. att gen. what did he say he was ? mr. ewbank . my lord feversham's gentleman of his horse . mr. att. gen. what discourse was there at the same time ? what did your master say about saddles ? mr. ewbank . he asked what saddles were brought . i told him two , and said they were the gentlemans i left with him . mr. att. gen. what did mr. lewis say then ? mr. ewbank . he said there was some mistake then , for he said he thought there were more . mr. att. gen. how many were there in all , did he say ? mr. ewbank . four and twenty . mr. att. gen. did mr. lewis or sir william parkins say four and twenty ? mr. ewbank . sir william parkins did not say how many there were of them , but mr. lewis said there were four and twenty ; to the best of my knowledge . l. c. j. holt. where were those saddles ? mr. ewbank . i do not know , my lord , i saw them not . mr. att. gen. what were the two saddles for ? mr. ewbank . for two horses , sir. mr. att. gen. who delivered them to you ? mr. ewbank . sir william parkins . mr. att. gen. where did they stand ? mr. ewbank . at the gorge inn , they were two gentlemens saddles . mr. att. gen. for what horses were they ? mr. ewbank . for horses that were not my masters : mr. att. gen. did he speak any thing to you of the horses ? mr. ewbank . he bid me see the hostler give them some corn. mr. att. gen. were they your masters horses ? mr. ewbank . not that i know of . mr. att. gen. did your master give you those two saddles ? mr. ewbank . there were those two saddles , i might take them up ; my master bid me see the hostler give the two horses their corn. mr. att. gen. were they not your masters horses ? mr. ewbank . not that i know of . mr. att. gen. when did you go out of town with those horses ? mr. ewbank . about four a clock in the afternoon . mr. att. gen. after this , when did you hear from your master next ? mr. ewbank . on monday after i had a letter from him . mr. att. gen. what was that letter for ? mr. ewbank . to go into warwickshire , to one evans his servant . mr. att. gen. did he tell you what it was for ? mr. ewbank . i did not read it , it was sealed . mr. att. gen. did you carry that letter ? mr. eubank . yes , i did . mr. att. gen. when ? mr. eubank . i came to him on tuesday about four a clock . mr. att. gen. what did evans and you do after that letter was deliver'd ? mr. ewbank . evans went and fetched some boxes from one mr. heywoods two miles off . mr. att. gen. did you go with evans to fetch those boxes ? mr. ewbank . no sir. mr. att. gen. who bid you go with him ? mr. ewbank . why , there was a man drove the team , he was a stranger . mr. att. gen. was you there , when they brought these goods back ? mr. ewbank . yes , i was . mr. att. gen. what did they do with them ? mr. eubank . they buried them in the garden . mr. att. gen. in the boxes ? mr. ewbank . yes sir. mr. att. gen. how many boxes were there ? mr. ewbank . i think five or six . i did not know what was in them . mr. att. gen. did you help to bury them ? mr. ewbank . no , i did not help to bury them ; but my brother evans told us they were choice goods , i did not know what . l. c. j. holt. what time of the day or night were the boxes fetched by evans from mr. heywoods ? mr. ewbank . they went away about four in the afternoon . mr. att. gen. how far is mr. heywood's house from sir william parkins house in warwickshire ? mr. ewbank . about four miles . mr. att. gen. what time did they return ? mr. ewbank . about or a clock at night . mr. att. gen. did they bury them then ? mr. ewbank . yes , i did see them buried . mr. att. gen. why did they bury them ? mr. ewbank . because they said they were choice goods . jury man. my lord , i understand he said he saw them buried . sir william parkins , did you see them buried ? mr. ewbank . i saw some earth put upon them , but they put more the next morning . mr. att. gen. i will only ask you one question . that person at the confectioners , had he a lame arm , or no ? mr. ewbank . i did not perceive it . mr. attor . gen. sir , will you ask him any more questions ? sir w. parkins . he says , mr. homes went out of town with me ; you would insinuate as if it were major homes in the proclamation ; who was it ? was it not mr. homes in holborn ? was he not all last summer at my house ? mr. ewbank . yes sir , he was . mr. att. gen. you do very well to explain it . have you any more questions to ask him ? sir w. parkins . no sir. mr. baker . call hipwell . he appears , and is sworn . mr. att. gen. is your name hipwell ? hipwell . yes sir. mr. att. gen. where do you live ? hipwell . in warwickshire . mr. att. gen. who do you live with ? hipwell . of my self sir. mr. att. gen. is your name hipwell ? hipwell . yes sir. mr. att. gen. do you know any thing of any goods carried from mr. heywood's house to sir will. parkins ? give an account of what you know of that matter . hipwell . i came from lichfield fair from my house to my master on wednesday . mr. att. gen. you said you had no master ; is he your master ? hipwell . he is my master when he pleases . mr. att. gen. hipwell , pray give an account of what you know of goods carried from mr. heywood's house , and who came for them . hipwell . there was , to my best remembrance , either seven or eight boxes . mr. att. gen. who came for them ? hipwell . there came one of his men , one richard , and one whetstone , and one marstone . mr. att. gen. what was whetstone ? hipwell . he was a tenant of sir will. parkins's . mr. att. gen. what did they bring to carry the goods ? hipwell . a waggon and two mares . mr. att. gen. what time was this ? hipwell . it was , to my best remembrance , about nine or ten at night . mr. att. gen. what did you do there ? what orders had you from your master ? hipwell . my master , when i came home , it was near seven a clock , and he gave me-order to go to sowe to borrow a mare of one jo. biles , and i brought that mare which i borrowed , with me home . mr. att. gen. what was that mare borrow'd for ? hipwell . i know not . mr. att. gen. what use was there made of her afterwards ? hipwell . before the team came to fetch these goods , which was about nine or ten at night ; my master told me sir will. parkins's man was to come to fetch bedding and other goods , what they were he knew not ; and gave me order , when he knockt at the gate , i should let him in . mr. att. gen. what were the goods in ? hipwell . they were first in boxes , and then sir w. parkins's man did knock off the outside lining of the boxes , which were deal-boards , and took out of two boxes three lesser boxes , and two out of another ; i think there were eight , i am not sure whether seven or eight . mr. att. gen. did they carry them away that night ? hipwell . they did carry them away that night ; sir w. parkins's man , his name was richard , and whetstone , they carried them away with them ; i lighted them down with a candle and lanthorn . mr. att. gen. and this , you say , was ash-wednesday at night ? hipwell . it was ash wednesday at night . mr. soll. gen. sir william , will you ask him any questions ? sir william parkins . no. mr. baker . call mr. heywood . he appeared , and was sworn . mr. att. gen. mr. heywood , give an account to the judge and court of what you know of any goods of sir will. parkins lodged at your house , and of a letter directed to you about them . mr. heywood . sir william parkins's man came to me about michaelmas last , with a letter from one mr. charnock ; the effect of it was , to desire me to lodge some goods at my house , because he was taking his servants from his own house , and was loth to leave them in an empty house ; and therefore he desired me to lodge them in my house , which i did . mr. att. gen. what were the goods put up in ? how were they put up ? mr. heywood . i think , in three chests , pretty big chests , and they were laid up together . there was bedding , and a piece of tapestry or two , as i remember . mr. att. gen. did that letter come from mr. charnock ? mr. heywood . sir william parkins's man brought it ; his name was richard evans , i think . mr. att. gen. what relation was mr. charnock to you ? mr. heywood . i married his sister . mr. att. gen. and you took those goods upon that letter , upon his recommendation ? mr. heywood . yes sir. mr. att. gen. now give an account whether you did not see mr. charnock before ash-wednesday , and what discourse there was between you about these goods . mr. heywood . i came up to london upon the th day of february , and was in london the th , th , th . and when i was in town , i went to mr. charnock to his lodgings : i was hardly half a quarter of an hour with him , but i told him , sir i william parkins had goods at my house ; and i asked him when he would fetch them away ? as near as i can remember , these were the words . said i , i cannot stay ; when shall i see you again ? said he , i shall have business at the temple , and will meet you at the temple coffee-house , and bring sir william parkins along with me ; which he did . they came to me about eight or nine a clock on tuesday morning ; i think it was about nine . says he , sir william parkins is at my lodgings , just going out of town , and would desire to see you . and i went , and there sir william was , and ready to go out of town . i told him , he had goods at my house , and asked him what he would do with them ? when he would take them away , or dispose of them ? he said , the first opportunity ; or to that effect . l. c. j. holt. when was this ? mr. heywood . in february last . l. c. h. holt. what time ? mr. heywood . the middle of february ; i think it was about the th day . l. c. j. holt. did you desire the goods might be removed ? mr. heywood . i asked him when he would take them away ? and he said he would take them away the first opportunity , or to this effect . mr. att. gen. when was the time they came for them ? mr. heywood . i think his man came to my wife on shrove-tuesday , as near as i can remember , as my wife said when i came home : and she said my husband is not at home , but you may have them away when you will. and so the man went away , and came again the next night , which was ash-wednesday . i came home from a fair about five or six a clock , and the man came about six or seven , and said , my master desires to have the goods away . i asked him when ? he said , to night . said i , it is a very unseasonable time , to fetch them away to night ; let them lye till the morning . says he , the waggon is coming , let me have them to night ; which i did . he said he had but two horses , and desir'd me to lend him a horse , which i did ; and i order'd my servant to deliver the goods ; which he did , and they took them away : what was done with them afterwards i know not . mr. baker . call whetstone . who appear'd , and was sworn . mr. att. gen. pray give an account when you went with a team to mr. heywoods house , and what you know of that matter . whetstone . i was at work , and his man came to me . mr. att. gen. whose man ? whetstone . sir william parkins's man. and he desir'd i would go with him to mr. heywood's house for some goods and bedding ; which i did : says he , i will go the next way to the house , and do you go with the team ; and said , i must not come to the house till it was later ; and so there he stopp'd me . l. c. j. holt. who told you so ? whetstone . sir. will. parkins's man. so he went forward to the gate , and then came back , and called me to come on . so i came to the house and loaded the boxes and the bedding that was there . mr. att. gen. how many boxes were there ? whetstone i cannot tell whether seven or eight . mr. att. gen. whither did you carry them ? whetstone . to sir william parkins's house . mr. att. gen. what did they do with them there ? whetstone . they carried them away , and threw them into the ground . mr. att. gen. where ? whetstone . by the wall side , where they were found . mr. att. gen. were you present when they were found ? whetstone . yes , sir , i was . mr. att. gen. then you can give an account of those choice goods , what they were . give an account what they were . whetstone . they were arms. mr. att. gen. how many ? whetstone . i have forgot . mr. att. gen. call mr. wats the constable to give an account of that . mr. watts appeared , and was sworn . mr. att. gen. mr. wats , was you present when sir william parkins's house was searched ? mr. watts . yes , sir , i was . mr. att. gen. what did you find in sir william parkins's garden ? mr. watts . arms. mr. att. gen. what quantity of arms ? mr. watts . four dozen of sword , twenty four carbines , twenty five cases of pistols . mr. att. gen. what kind of swords were they ? mr. watts . they were broad swords , two-edged swords . mr. att. gen. were they hilted ? mr. watts . they were not , but there was a box of hilts for them . mr. att. gen. where did you find them ? mr. watts . in a border , under the wall. mr. att. gen. whose wall ? mr. watts . sir william parkins's wall. mr. att. gen. did you see the boxes broke open ? mr. watts . yes , sir , i did , i had them all at my house . mr. att. gen. was you by when they were broken open ? mr. watts . i was not there at first , but afterwards when they were broke open i was : the company that was there , broke them open , and brought them to my house . mr. att. gen. he had them in his house ; he is the constable . sir william , if you will ask these men any questions , do . call turtle , freeman . and bedding mr. baker . which will you have first ? mr. att. gen. mr. freeman . who was sworn . mr. att. gen. mr. freeman , where do you live ? freeman . at the george inn in holbourn . mr. att. gen. what are you there ? freeman . an hostler . mr. att. gen. freeman , do you give an account what horses have been kept there of sir william parkins's , and what time he was a guest to the house . freeman . my lord , he was a guest to the house all last summer , before i came to the house , several times , sometimes more , sometimes less . mr. att. gen. but this last winter , give an account about february last , what horses , and what time . freeman . sometimes there were three horses , sometimes four , sometimes five ; the most that ever he had was five . mr. att. gen. when did the five come in ? what time was that he had five ? freeman . to my best remembrance , the five were the week before this stir ; the week before the plot broke out . mr. att. gen. the week before the proclamation ? freeman . yes sir. mr. att. gen. what day was it ? freeman . on friday night . l. c. just . holt. how many ? five ? freeman . yes , my lord. mr. att. gen. who came with them ? freeman . i saw none but the groom , and one of his own servants , i saw no other . mr. att. gen. how were they accoutred ? freeman four of them with holsters and small pistols , and the other a red mare with a port-mantle , and the horse-cloth wrapt up with one or two pair of jack-boots , and some collers , and a horse-cloth , and i know not whether there were a bridle or two . mr. att. gen. when did these horses go away again ? freeman . saturday in the afternoon . mr. att. gen. and did you observe any persons on saturday morning ? freeman . there were two men mounted two of the horses , who went out with the horses two or three hours : they went out about nine or ten , and returned between twelve and one. mr. att. gen. and what did you observe , nothing at all ? freeman . nothing , but that they had rid very hard , the horses were very hot . i know not where they had been , the horses were very sweaty . mr. att. gen. do you remember what horses were brought up the week before ? freeman . yes . mr. att. gen. how many were they ? freeman . two or three . they very seldom stayed a night ; if they stayed a night it was a great chance indeed . mr. att. gen. can you remember those that came the week before , how long they stay'd there ? freeman . there were three very good horses stayed a week . mr. att. gen. did they come in no name ? freeman . the gentleman that brought the horses paid the bill ; only the groom told me , sir william parkins ordered they should be well fed ; but whether they were his horses or no i know not ; i never received any mony of sir william parkins , all the while they were in the stable ; the groom always paid me . mr. att. gen. but did you never observe a roan horse that came in the day before ? freeman . yes , there was . mr. att. gen. from whence came that horse ? freeman . from mountague house . mr. att. gen. you mistake : was it not somerset house . freeman . yes , somerset-house , i am sure it was somerset-house . mr. att. gen. do you know one mr. lewis ? freeman . i suppose the tapster does , i do not . l. c. j. holt. how many horses came from somerset house ? freeman . only the roan gelding . sir vvilliam parkins . what kind of horses were they ? what height was the bay gelding ? freeman . i say the roan guilding was about hands high . sir. vv. parkins . then there was a bay gelding , what sized horse was that ? freeman . about fourteen hands . sir vvilliam parkins . they were no great sized horses . freeman . it might be they might be fourteen hands and an half . sir william parkins . but hostler , have you not known those horses to be mine a long time ? freeman . yes , sir i have . l. c. j. holt. what , the roan ? freeman . no , not the roan , i cannot say whether i ever saw him before . mr. att. gen. call the tapster . [ turtle appeared , and was sworn . ] mr. att. gen. give an account what you know of any horses of sir w. parkins coming to the george-inn . turtle . i know sir william parkins used to set his horses at our inn , this four or five years . the last time of his coming to town in february , he came to town with three horses the first time . mr. att. gen. what time of the month ? turtle . i do not know the day of the month. mr. att. gen. what day of the week ? turtle . it was in february , it was about a week before the plot , the last of his coming to town . mr. cooper . do you know the day of the week ? turtle . no truly , i do not , for i never kept an account of the horses coming in or out . the last time of his coming with horses , he came with four or five horses , to the best of my knowledge , the friday before the plot broke out : and then he gave order to his groom to have his horses ready to go out of town on saturday morning ; but he did not go out with all his horses , according to his order . but two gentlemen went out with two of them , and staied about two or three hours , and they seemed hard rid . and these four or five horses went out of town in the afternonn ; and he gave an account to his servant that he intended to be in town again about sunday or monday following . mr. att. gen. when came mr. lewis ? turtle . i do not know him by that name ; but when i served the earl of oxford , i knew him to be the same , the gentleman of horse to the lord feversham . mr. att. gen. what time did he come ? turtle . he was there upon saturday in the yard , but sir william parkins did not see him there . l. c. j. holt. you are askt when did lewis come . turtle . he was in our yard the first time i saw him , asking for sir william parkins if he were there . mr. att. gen. what time ? turtle . about three in the afternoon . mr. att. gen. did you not see him before ? turtle . i saw him about an hour before sir william's horses went away , and i told him that when they returned again , they were to go out of town , and designed to be in town again on sunday or monday . and on sunday , about three a clock , mr. lewis came to enquire if sir william's horses were come to town ? i told him , no. again , on monday about nine he came to the tap-house , and askt if i heard any thing of their coming ? i answered , no. mr. att. gen. how were they accoutred , when they came to town on friday ? turtle . to the best of my knowledge , two or three had holsters , and four or five cases of pistols . mr. att. gen. did you observe any other furniture ? turtle . i saw a pair or two of jack-boots , they rode in them , the groom rode in them . mr. att. gen. did you see any more wrapt up ? turtle . no , i did not . mr. cooper . do you know what time the horses were saddled , that day , the saturday that they went away ? sir w. parkins . let me ask you a question or two . you say , you observed there were three or four cases of pistols ; did you not observe that i always used to ride with pistols ? turtle . yes , sir : i know very well you did sir w. parkins . and for those boots , were there any more than two pair ? turtle . i saw but two pair . sir w. parkins . was there not a gentleman that came to town with me ? we alighted at mr. homes's house , and sent the boots thither , they were the boots we rode in . turtle . i know you use to ride with three or four cases of pistols . sir w. parkins . and were not those small horses ? what sized horses were they ? not one of them above fourteen hands and a half , some under fourteen , they were horses i used to ride upon . mr. soll. gen. did you ever see sir william come with so many before ? turtle . there used to be some at the sword and buckler . mr. att. gen. how many there ? turtle . four or five at a time . he has come with five or six at a time , when he used to come with a coach and four horses . mr. att. gen. how long since ? turtle . seven or eight years ago . mr. att. gen. how long have you lived at the george inn ? turtle . i have lived there about three years . mr. att. gen. did you observe any other horses come in there ? turtle . there were two or three horses that were pretty sizable . mr. att. gen. whose were they ? did any body own them ? turtle . yes , there was a man that seemed to own them , that paid for their meat . mr. att. gen. did you know who that was ? turtle . truly i did not know him , i never saw him in my life before . mr. soll. gen. sir william , have you any questions to ask him ? l. c. h. holt. sir william parkins , the attourney and king's witnesses have done , now is your time to make your defence . sir w. parkins . i rely upon your lordship , i am ignorant , i know not how to defend my self ; your integrity is such , that i depend upon your lordship to sum up the evidence to the jury . as to the assassination , there is but one witness , and that is captain porter ; and he declares i had no hand in it , but only to furnish four or five horses , but not any thing that i did . l. c. j. holt. yes , yes ; you agreed to that resolution in several debates , that it was necessary to take off the king. sir w. parkins . i deny it . but there is but one witness against me , and the law says there shall be two as to one overt-act ; and as to the assssination , there is only captain porter , and no other . l. c. j. holt. well , well , that is true . sir w. parkins . as to the regiment , captain porter does not say i was to raise a regiment , but that he was told by a gentleman that i was desired to be in this matter , but i could not , for i had other business to do . l. c. j. holt. yes , yes , he said you had a commission , and had bought saddles , and had a troop . sir w. parkins . who said that , my lord ? mr. att. gen. mr. porter said you told him you had a commission to raise a regiment , and you told sweet your troop did consist of old soldiers , and several voluntiers besides . sir w. parkins . still nothing of a regiment . i did not tell him i had raised a troop , or was to raise a regiment , but that i told him my troop would consist , ay would consistdf — . l. c. j. no , that you had bought saddles , and that your troop did consist of old soldiers ; and that you did go into leicestershire , and told him how disposed in leicestershire they were to your design , and that the west stood as well affected as the north. sir w. parkins . that i went into leicestershire , and met several gentlemen ; i hope this is no evidence of treason . he says i said they were well disposed , he did not say well disposed to king james . pray my lord call him again . l. c. j. holt. let mr. sweet be called . mr. soll. gen. mr. sweet , what did sir william parkins tell you of leicestershire ? mr. sweet . he said he had been there , and met his friends , and all was well . l. c. j. holt. did he name king james ? mr. sweet . no , not king james at that time . mr. soll. gen. what was the discourse ? mr. sweet . he named not king james , but only mentioned the king's interest . l. c. j. holt. what did you understand by that ? mr. sweet . i understood him always king james . he said the west was as well inclined to the king's interest as the north. mr. att. gen. what did he tell you he was to go about ? mr. sweet . he said he was to meet some friends in the north , and that some came as far to meet him as he went to meet them . mr. att. gen. at the time he said he was to go to leicestershire to meet his friends , was it at that time he had discourse with you about king james landing ? mr. sweet . no , sir. mr. att. gen. when captain scudmore was with him , had you discourse with him before ? mr. sweet . no , sir ; i never saw captain scudmore before in my life . mr. att. gen. but when your first discourse was with him about king james his landing , what did he say ? mr. sweet . sir william parkins told me now he did believe he would land , for he had his own word for it . mr. att. gen. what did he say of any preparation that he had made ? mr. sweet . the preparation was his own troop . l. c. j. holt. did he tell you he had a troop , or that he was to have one ? mr. sweet . i speak his own words ; which were , my troop consists of all old soldiers . mr. att. gen. and what did he speak of voluntiers ? mr. sweet . he said he had some gentlemen that would follow him as voluntiers , and would go with him . mr. mountague . when you had discourse of the present king , what name did he give him ? mr. sweet . he called him the prince of orange . sir w. parkins . consider that , did you ever hear me call this king prince of orange since he was king ? mr. sweet . i do not know , i am not positive in that . mr. how long have you been acquainted with sir william parkins ? mr. sweet . three years . mr. soll. gen. have you ever heard him call this king prince of orange ? mr. att. gen. what did he use to call him ? you had frequent discourse with him about the present government ? mr. sweet . he would call him king william , and the little gentleman . mr. att. gen. what did he call him else ? mr. sweet . king william , the little gentleman , our governour . sir w. parkins . when did you hear me call him the little gentleman ? pray consider of it ; i am sure i always called him king william , but never the prince of orange , nor the little gentleman ; i am sure i never used such an expression . l. c. j. holt. recollect your self , speak the truth , and no more ; did you ever hear him call him little gentleman , or prince of orange ? mr. sweet . i am studying the time : i am sure i have heard him call him prince of orange , and king william too : but when he spoke of the king , i understood him to mean king james . l. c. j. holt. sir william , when you came from leicestershire , you talked with him of the king's friends , and how well disposed they were for the king's interest , and he understood it of king james ; and you said , the west was as well disposed as the north. were you to go to leicestershire to see whether the people were well disposed to king william ? sir w. parkins . no , my lord , nor king james neither . l. c. j. holt. why did you concern your self with the king's friends in the west and in the north ? mr. soll. gen. when was it that sir william spoke to you of the king 's landing ? mr. sweet . about christmas . sir w. parkins . did i tell you positively , that he was to land ? mr. att. gen. you said , you had his word for it . sir w. parkins . that cannot be , it carries no probability with it . it were strange , if i should have it from the king 's own mouth , when i never was out of england ; indeed , if i had been out of england , it had been something . mr. cooper . he did not say from the king 's own mouth , but you had the king's word for it . l. c. j. holt. sir w. parkins , why did you send your man to kensington , to speak with one brown ? and what was that person that lodged at the confectioners in holbourn , over against grays inn ? sir w. parkins . i know neither brown nor the other : but i lent my man , at the request of mr. charnock , who lodged at the same house with me : he desired me to lend him my man to go on an errand for him , and i lent him my man , that was formerly his servant , and he knew the man ; i knew neither of them , nor their business , nor whether there were any or no. he imployed him , about what i know not , nor their business . l. c. j. holt. have you any more to say ? sir w. parkins . i think , my lord , there is but one positive evidence as to any overt-act . l. c. j. holt. what do you think of the design to bring in king james , to assist him with horses , and providing horses and arms ? sir w. parkins . there is no positive proof of that of arms. l. c. j. holt. yes , of arms ; about michaelmas last there were arms sent to your house , which you sent to mr. charnock's brother-in-law . these arms lay there till ashwednesday at night , and then were fetcht away by night , and removed and buried at your house , and taken up again , and an account has been given what arms they were ; there were four dozen of swords , there were hilts to them , and cases of pistols , and several carbines . sir w. parkins . my lord , it does not appear , that they were bought , nor for what intent they were bought . l. c. j. holt. but then he tells you , your going to leicestershire was understood to be for king james , and settling his interest there , which by and by i must leave to the consideration of the jury , that is an overt-act : and when you came back , you gave an account how they were disposed in the west as well as in the north. sir w. parkins . but is this an overt-act of treason , to tell how people stand affected ? l. c. j. holt. but your going with that design . sir w. parkins . he does not prove that design , i went to see my friends . l. c. j. holt. mr. sweet , did not he tell you he was to go into leicestershire ? mr. sweet . yes , to meet some of the king's friends . l. c. j. holt. did he tell you who ? mr. sweet . yes , my lord , that there was a lord's brother ; and when he came back , he told me all was well , and that the west was as well inclined as the north. l. c. j. holt. to what ? mr. sweet . to the king's interest . l. c. j. holt. did he speak of a lord's brother ? what did he say of a lord's brother ? mr. sweet . there were several persons concerned , and among them a lord's brother . juryman i desire your lordship to ask him , for we took it so before in the course of the evidence , when he discoursed of the king 's landing , we took it of the late king james . l. c. j. holt. did he ever mention king james ? did he name king james or king william ? mr. sweet . he never used to say king james , but i took him to mean king james , he called him the king. mr. att. gen. who could land but king james ? mr. soll. gen. about what time was that discourse ? mr. sweet . about christmas . sir w. parkins . if i did say the king is to land , i hope this discourse cannot be interpreted treason , but words . he says , i said i had it from the king 's own mouth , which is impossible ; but if i had said , i had it from the king 's own mouth , and did tell him so , it is no overt-act , it cannot be interpreted treason . and then for the other , i am charged with being in a consultation for sending over mr. charnock , there is but one witness , there is only mr. porter for that , and that is but one evidence , and there ought to be two witnesses , but here is but one . l. c. j. holt. there are two as to that particular . but i must tell you , sir william parkins , if any person does design and contrive that the realm be invaded , the king deposed , and another set upon the throne , that is treason , and the same species of treason within the th of edw. . as that of imagining , compassing and designing his death and destruction is now the question is , whether there be another witness to prove overt-acts of this design . sir w. parkins . i do not conceive there is , the rest is but of words . l. c. j. holt. that you bought arms. sir w. parkins . but that does not appear , nor wherefore they were bought . l. c. j. holt. what occasion had you for such a quantity of arms ? sir w. parkins . after all , i did not buy those arms , and i could prove to your lordship , if i had time , that those arms were in boxes , and all rusty , when i came first to my house in warwickshire . l. c. j. holt. but why were they bury'd in your garden ? they were at mr. heywood's house before , and removed by your direction , and then carry'd to your own house , and bury'd in the garden , just when the plot broke out . sir w. parkins . my lord , it is easily imagined , that no body at such a time would care to have it known that he had arms , tho' never so innocent , found upon him at that time . mr. soll. gen. but you had horses , and holsters , and furniture for horses . sir w. parkins . i used to come with three or four horses , according as i had friends or servants with me ; and i never used to keep less than seven or eight horses this twenty years , and sometimes more ; and they were little horses , and no way fit for that service that is pretended . l. c. j. holt. have you any thing more to say , sir william ? sir w. parkins . i hope , as to the assassination , i am clear . perhaps the world may think i have had an inclination to king james , and perhaps they may not think amiss in it ; but i never had any opportunity of doing any thing , nor never did any thing for him . and i hope , by interpretations , my life shall not be taken away , and i cannot believe it will please the king that i be found guilty upon slight grounds . l. c. j. holt. no question , it will better please the king , and every body else , rather that you be found innocent than guilty , if you be not guilty . sir w. parkins . therefore . i hope , you will not find me guilty upon inferences , according to that old saying , better five guilty men escape , than one innocent man suffer . l. c. j. holt. you are under a mistake in thinking it necessary to have two witnesses to one overt-act ; for if one witness be to one , and another to another , of the same species of treason , it is all the law requires . sir w. parkins . but this is not the same species of treason , levying war is one thing , and assassinating is another . l. c. j. holt. but your design originally was restoring king james , and deposing king william . sir w. parkins . that appears but by one witness . l. c. j. holt. one way by assassination , the other by invasion . sir w. parkins . still it is but one witness , my lord. l. c. j. holt. one witness ? it is two witnesses for the design of the invasion and restoring of king james . sir will. parkins . two witnesses ? to what particular , my lord ? i beg your lordship ; but one , besides circumstances . l. ch. just . holt. you said the king would come . sir will. parkins . so my opinion was . l. ch. just . holt. no , not your opinion , you said you had his word for it . sir will. parkins . was it possible for that to be true ? which way should i have his word , when i was not out of england ? l. ch. just . holt. but you had horses , and arms , and a troop , and you bought saddles , you had thirty saddles in order to furnish a troop . sir will. parkins . does any body swear it was in order to that ? l. ch. just . holt. when you talkt of the king 's landing , and that you had his word for it ; at the same time you had thirty saddles , and you said your troop did consist of old soldiers . sir will. parkyns , it wou'd be , but it was not done ; i hope your lordship will consider that . the preservation of subjects , i hope , will be more acceptable than the destruction of them . l. ch. just . holt. we will do the king right , and you too . the king and kingdom is very nearly concerned at this time . sir william , have you any more to say ? sir will. parkyns , i think there is but one witness , and all the rest is nothing but words ; and one witness is not sufficient by the law of england . this is all i have to say . l. ch. just . holt. i have told you my opinion . sir will. parkyns , my lord , your lordship has known me many years ; my way was not for fighting , but the gown ; i was always a peaceable man all my time , and very unlike this all my time : and now in my old age , that i am troubled with the gout , and have lost the use of my right hand , it is very unlikely that i should do such a thing as this . therefore i hope you will interpret all in a milder sense , and that you will be favourable to me , and not inrerpret any thing to my destruction : and so i humbly submit . l. ch. just . treby , sir william , my lord chief justice desires to have our opinion . we ought to be tender in case of blood ; your life is at stake , and we ought to be very careful concerning it . but in matters of treason , the life of the king and of all the people are likewise at stake ; we must be indifferent in this case , and by the grace of god i will be so . the question you propose , is , whether there be two witnesses in this case for the matter you are indicted for ? the matter is compassing and imagining the king's death . there is one witness that does positively prove that you did agree to that design of assassinating the king's person , and that you did promise , provide , and contribute to furnish horses and men for that action . this is proved but by one witness it is true ; and if it went no further , you objection would have good ground , there would be a defect of another witness . but this compassing the king's death may be made more evident by other overt-acts , besides that of assassinating . the conspiring with a foreign prince to invade this kingdom , and providing arms , are overt-acts to compass the king's death ; for it cannot be supposed , but that he that would have an insurrection and invasion here against the person of the king , did intend the destruction of the king ; he that would take away his defence , and leave him to his mortal enemies , he can have no design that the king should survive , and call him to an account , and render vengeance to him . and therefore this being in its nature treason , the providing arms , and going up and down to raise men , to make insurrection is so . sir will. parkins . that is not said , my lord ; this is not said , that i met with any , with an intent to raise men , no , by no evidence : it is said i went to meet with some friends ; pray , my lord , go not beyond what the evidence is ? l. ch. just . treby . your words i think i did take , and i will do you no wrong . you said , you went into leicester-shire , and that it was to meet your friends ; he says , the king's friends . by friends , it is plain king james his friends , and not king william's ; as you spake of the king 's landing , and that at christmas last , when every body knows king william was here , and had been so for sometime . sir will. parkins . that of landing was at christmas ; the journey was long after . l. ch. just . treby . the coupling i make , is , that at christmas you used the word king , and he says you meant k. james ; now the question is , if you meant by the word king , the same in january , as in december . and you said further , that you found the west as well inclined to the king as the north , and that a lord's brother was concerned in it . if by king were meant king william , how impertinent were this discourse ? to say that the west was as well inclined to king william as the north , and that a lord's brother was concerned ; in what ? in being true to king william ? what a strange kind of discoursing is this i was willing to hear you explain this as well as you can . but here is this of providing of arms proved by four or five witnesses , and secreting of them in this manner : and you have no witnesses to prove that you provided these for the use of the government . it is not lawful to provide arms , as you did : and to provide arms for a whole troop , and secret them in this manner is the gleatest evidence to me that there was no other use of them . whether you had provided for a whole troop or no , i may not be skillful enough to know that ? but it is plain to me , an insurrection was intended . if you had found them in your house in warwick-shire , you ought to have discovered them , and have used them for the government ; and that when you had a commission , and not before . then he says , you had a troop . sir will. parkins . he only tells you my troop would be composed ? l. ch. just. treby . does he not say you had a troop , that consisted of old soldiers ? sir will. parkins . it is to be , not it was . l. ch. just. holt. did he say it did consist , or would consist ? mr. sweet . he said his troop was composed of all old soldiers . sir will. parkyns , does it appear ? here is but one man. does this troop consist of men in the air ? are none of these men known ? suppose i should tell him a brag , a lye ; shall i lose my life for talking of a troop in nubibus ? mr. att. gen. though we have not found your men , we have found your arms. your going into leicester-shire , and bringing that word back , that is a fact. sir will. parkyns , where was it , and when were they bought , and made ready ? it does not appear ; and i do affirm , and can prove to your lordship , if you give me but one days time , that they were at my house in warwick-shire when i first came there , two years ago , or i will be crucified , if it be not proved to your satisfaction that they were at my house in warwick-shire , long before any thing of this discourse was had or thought on . j. rookby , if your lordship desire my opinion , i suppose it is to the matter of law propounded by sir william parkins . he says there ought to be two witnesses to the same overt-act . i take the law to be this , that there need not be two witnesses to the same overt-act ; but if there be one witness to one overt-act , and another to another overt-act of the same species of treason , this is two witnesses in law. now it seems to be one species of treason , for it is a compassing and designing the death of the king several ways , one by assassinating his person , the other by bringing in foreign forces , and preparing arms to meet that force here . now here are many witnesses to prove arms prepared and found , and some were present when the boxes were opened , and proved that these arms were directed by you the prisoner to be sent to heywood's house . it is true , mr. charnock writ the letter , but it was by sir william's directions , and sir william parkin's servants fetcht them away from this place ; this is as plain as any thing in the world : and this i take to be another overt-act , and proved by several witnesses , touching the same treason , the compassing and imagining the death of the king. sir william parkins tells you of being educated to the gown ; i do not know what occasion a gown-man should have for so many arms. sir will. parkyns , if you please to let me send for some witnesses , i will prove that were there two years ago . j. rookby , there was a design two years ago , and a design to destroy the king. sir will. parkins . i desire the statute of treason , of edw. . may be read , and the new one . l. ch. just . holt. let it be read . it was read accordingly . l. ch. just. holt. there is another statute , of edw. . more for your purpose . sir will. parkins . my lord , i expected to have found it in this ? then the other statute was read. l. ch. just . holt. sir william , you have heard the statute read , do you infer any thing from it ? sir will. parkyns , it requires two witnesses , and there are not two witnesses . l. ch. just. holt. that i must leave to the jury , whether the witnesses do not prove an overt-act to demonstrate a design you had to depose the king : for if so be here be a design to despose the king from his throne , and that be manifest by any overt-act , that is high-treason by this very act. sir will. parkyns , that i agree to ; but there must be two witnesses to it . l. ch. just . holt. nay , suppose the design be to dethrone the king one way or another , one way by an assassination , the other way by joyning in an insurrection or invasion ; there must be a witness to each overt-act . sir will. parkyns , there must be two witnesses to each overt-act . l. ch. just . holt. to each ? no , for the new act which commences to morrow , declares it to be sufficient to have one witness to one overt-act , and another to another overt-act . sir will. parkyns , but it must be one species of treason . j. rookby , that that i deliver'd my opinion in , was , that one witness to one overt act , and another to another overt act. of the same species of treason , is good now ; and i am fully confirmed by this act of parliament , which commences in a day or two . let the act be read . l. ch. just . holt. a design to depose the king , which is manifest by some overt act , that is an overt act to prove the design of deposing the king ; for he that designs to depose him from his kingly state and dignity , if that design be manifest , that is an overt act for designing his death . sir will. parkyns , but it must be manifested , it must not be by interpretation . l. ch. just . holt. if that be proved , if the next overt act be proved , that you design the kings deposition , then it is apparent you design his death . sir will. parkyns , but they are different things . l. ch. just . treby , sir will. parkyns , we have seen a king deposed , and yet alive , it is very true , and yet not the success that always does it . but whenever persons agree together to bring in foreign forces , and prepare arms to meet them , and make insurrection against the king in possession ; this is reckoned an overt act by my lord chief justice hales , and my lord cook ; and yet those men are reckoned to be the most tender men in these cases : and the reason is very plain . sir will. parkyns , if your lordship please , let that be read . l. ch. just . treby , for any act that has a natural tendency to the destruction of the king , that is the expression of an internal thought of compassing and imagining his death : providing of arms , and making an insurrection against the king , is an overt act , and an agreeing to shoot him , is an overt act. sir will. parkyns , i desire it may be read , and i am satisfyed . the new act was then read . j. rookby , i believe in a great cause in parliament , my l. stafford's case , it was declared for law , that one witness to one overt act , and another to another , was declared sufficient in law. sir will. parkyns , i believe it has been done . but yet if your lordship please , here is a beneficial law , which , if your lordship had pleased to put off my tryal another day , i might have had the benefit of . j. rookby , it would have been the same thing as to an overt act , for this is only indicative of the same law in several particulars . sir will. parkyns , no , my lord , but i could have had witnesses to have taken them off ; but here it turns upon the matter of sweet ; and it is manifest , he has spoken what cannot be true , viz. that i had the kings word for it . j. rookby , if a man write a note to you , that he will do a thing , that might be said to be his word , though by a letter . sir will. parkyns , if i had it from his own mouth , not else . l. ch. just . holt. it is not impossible but you might speak with him . sir will. parkyns , no ? it is impossible ; for can i speak from hence to france ? mr. charnock went over , but i never went over . j. rookby , if any man should have said the latter end of the last month , i believe there is an assassination intended against k. william , meerly because he had his word for it , we might say , we had the king's word for it , that is a proper expression , if it come by letter or publick fame . l. ch. just . holt. he might send you word so by a message . sir will. parkyns , he manifestly contradicts himself , backward and forward , in his evidence . captain porter swears for to save his own life , and the other contradicts himself . j. rookby . captain porter's testimony has been sufficiently confirmed by the acknowledgment of dying persons . l. ch. just . holt. sir william , have you any more to say ? sir will. parkyns , no , my lord. then the king 's learned counsel summ'd up the evidence to this effect . mr. soll. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , i am of counsel for the king in this matter , and it is my turn to sum up the evidence that has been given against the prisoner at the barr. he stands indicted for compassing and imagining the death of the king , for designing to depose the king , and by an insurrection , incouraging and abetting the king's enemies , and doing what he could to procure an invasion upon his own countrey . some of these crimes run into one another ; designing the death of the king , the assassinating , and deposing of the king , amount to the very same thing , it is compassing and imagining the death of the king. my lords the judges have given you their opinion in that point of law , and it is , i think , agreeable to all the resolutions since the making of that statute . i think this statute made in the edw. . was explained in the time of his successor , rich. d . but i am sure in the time of henry th . when it was designed to set up richard , it was adjudged high-treason , for compassing and designing the death of the king. for deposing of him , was destroying him in his politick capacity , and assassinating of him , was to destroy him in his natural capacity . the design was to overthrow the present government establish'd by law , whereby every man injoys his own property , every man injoys his own freedom , and those that will be quiet , may have their own liberty , as well as at any time they ever had it . but some people are very impatient , they are not contented to have servitude themselves , but would bring it upon their fellow subjects . and it would not be very ill , if those that be in love with it , would go where they may fill their bellies with it , in another place where they may have it , and not bring it upon those that would be very impatient under it , as we all are , and i hope shall always be . to prove the invasion , we have captain porter , and he tells you he had seen a commission from the late k. james , all written with his own hand . sir will. parkyns , i beg your pardon , he does not say such a word . i beg , my lord , the witnesses may be called . l. ch. just . holt. if i remember right , mr. porter said you had read the commission , and it was writ with k. james's own hand , and he said it was because he could not trust his ministers . sir will. parkyns , no , my lord , he said not so ; but all i said , was that scudmore was to take one . mr. soll. gen. pray mr. porter , give my lord and the jury an account what sir will. parkyns told you . capt. porter , i askt capt. charnock , if i might not see the commission ; he told me he never saw it himself , but that sir william parkyns had , and that it was written with k. james's own hand . he said , sir will. parkyns said it was to raise war against the king's person . mr. soll. gen. by whose hand was it writ ? capt. porter , with the king 's own hand . mr. soll. gen. did he give you any reason why it was written with his own hand ? capt. porter , because he would not trust his ministers . mr. soll. gen. i would not do sir william wrong in any respect : i well rember mr. charnock told him he had seen it , but i would not offer that as an evidence against the prisoner . but captain porter says , sir william parkyns said he had seen it , and said it was written with king james's own hand . and mr. porter says , they had meetings at several places , and he names you the places where ; the nags 's - head tavern , the sun tavern in the strand , the globe tavern in hatton-garden ; and particularly that it was agreed , that mr. king that was executed , and mr. knightly and himself , should go and view a place that was most proper for the assassination , and they were to come and give an account what place they thought most proper . and that accordingly they did go to view a place , and came home at night , and met at the sun tavern in the strand , and sir william parkyns was there ; and there they gave an account what place they had viewed that was proper , and all agreed to it . he says indeed , that sir william parkyns was not to execute this design in person , but one scudmore was to be a man to be employed . and sir william parkyns did say it was very necessary to be done , for that it would facilitate the introduction of k. james . there is likewise concurring evidence with captain porter ; he says , that sir william parkyns was to procure five horses , three for himself to mount men upon , two to lend mr. porter to mount men upon ; and if there were further occasion for horses , he could procure them from one mr. lewis , gentleman to the lord feversham . accordingly we have produced you three witnesses , freeman , tartle , &c. and they give you an account , that upon friday , the day before the fixt day designed for the assassination , there did come three horses to town from sir will. parkyns ; but the business being put off upon a disappointment , they were sent out of town again , to return the friday afterwards , the day before the discovery . then four horses were brought to town , and a fifth horse was borrowed of this lewis , a roan gelding . sir will. parkyns , pray sir , observe what sort of horses they were , what heighth . mr. soll. gen. they were about fourteen hands high , sir william , so four were brought to town , and the fifth was brought from somerset-house , so that there were the five horses captain porter speaks of , three whereof were to be mounted by sir william parkyn's own men , the other two were to be lent to captain porter to mount his men. and this is concurring witness to captain porter's evidence , and it is very near two witnesses to prove this species of treason . and then captain porter goes further , and he proves that sir william told him that he had a commission to raise a regiment of horse , and that he was providing so to do . then we call mr. sweet , and he gives you an account that he had been acquainted with sir william parkins for three years past ; and that talking with him about the king , his present majesty , and sometimes about k. james , he says the king was to land very speedily , and that he had a troop consisting of old soldiers , and several voluntiers to follow him . he said , he was to take a journey into leicester-shire , and accordingly he went. and when he return'd , he told him he found the west as well inclined as the north. and this is all the evidence we produce from mr. sweet . then to prove he did go into leicester-shire , we produce his servants , that he did go accordingly , and met with several persons . what was done there they cannot prove ; but they corroborate mr. sweet's testimony , that he did go , and we have all the reason to believe he went upon that design that mr. sweet said he did . then , as a further concurring evidence , that he was to raise a regiment , or a troop , whether a troop or regiment , is not material ; here is the matter of his arms. there were four dozen of swords found in his house , thirty two carbines , and five and twenty cases of pistols ; these were hid in his garden . we have trac'd these arms , and find they were sent from his house to mr. heywood's . but there he thought they did not lye very safe , therefore sir william parkins sent for them very privately ; and they were brought back to his house , and there they were buried . the same person says he saw them taken up afterwards ; so that they were one and the same arms that he sent away , and that were afterwards buried in his house . so that this is a concurring evidence with what mr. sweet says , and with what captain porter says . and these are three witnesses to that treason he had a commission to prosecute . now against all this , he makes but very small objection . for the matter of two witnesses he has been over-ruled by the court. for the arms , he says , they were in his house , and he found them there when he came there first : but of this he has no manner of evidence . but if they had been there when he came , how came he at this time to secret them ? why might they not have been as publick now as before ? he might have kept them , and given some reason why he did so . but when he gives no manner of reason why he secreted them , he gives you a just suspicion that they were for that end for which the witnesses say they were designed , that is , to arm that number of men he was to raise , that were to be ready to assist king james when he came to land here . so that if you believe what the witnesses have sworn , i think , with submission , you cannot but find him guilty of the crimes for which he stands indicted . mr. cooper . my lord , sir william parkins has given us a good caution , which i shall take care to observe , that is , not to strain either fact or law to his prejudice . but , my lord , when a crime of this nature is so far proved against the prisoner , as no man can acquit him in his judgment ; then , i think , it is good service to the publick , to make it so plain , as to be out of doubt to the juries conscience , and satisfaction of all that think themselves concern'd in this crime , and that it is worth their while to hear this tryal . my lord , sir william parkins his indictment is divided into two parts ; one that accuses him for assassination ; the other to invite the french into this kingdom , and to meet them with an armed force . for the first part , i must do him that right , there is but one positive evidence for his being concern'd in the assassination . but that evidence says he agreed to it in several meetings ; and in one that he said , it was necessary in order to the other design he was ingaged in , and that it would facilitate the descent of the late king james into this kingdom . but that one evidence is confirmed by several concurring circumstances : by his sending for his horses to town the day before the first saturday that the king was to be assassinated : by his sending them out of town upon that disappointment ; and sending for them again before the second saturday when the king was to be assassinated : by his having more horses than usual , and taking care of three horses that were none of his own , brought by a person unknown : and all these eight horses carried away that saturday , upon the disappointment , by the king 's not going , as they hoped he would , a hunting . and , my lord , i must observe to you , that upon the message that was sent by sir william parkins , one of those horses was brought from somerset-house , and brought by mr. lewis , who it is apparent was privy to this design . besides this , there is another circumstance in the evidence , that has not been observed ; and that was the sending for mr. sweet up to town before the second time that the king was to be assassinated . the first time he came up , he was asked in what condition he had left his family , how they were provided for ; and he said , he had left them without mony : sir william parkins then chid him , and said he might as well have staid at home ; and said , he had once a design to have used him in a matter he had for him to do in town , but he had compassion on his family , and therefore would not make use of him . all these favour of that design which captain porter positively accuses him for . but as to the other part of the indictment , which is his design to meet the french with an armed power , that is sworn to by two witnesses . captain porter tells you he was at the two consults , where that was resolved upon , the old king's head tavern in leaden-hall-street , and at mrs. mountjoy's in james-street . they all agreed to meet the late king with horse , when he was to land with a foreign power ; and sir william parkins was with them . and mr. sweet tells you , sir william acquainted him with the design , and said he had a troop of old soldiers ; my troop , in the present tense he spoke it : he did himself that right to examine into that matter : and the evidence repeated it , my troop consists of all old soldiers , and he was to have several gentlemen voluntiers that were to join him . as to the joining with the french , the raising of rebellion in england , and deposing the king , which is killing him in his politick capacity , two witnesses go home to that . and the evidence as to that is corroborated by several strong circumstances : the journey that sir william parkins said he would undertake into leicester shire , he did go : he comes back in february , and makes report to mr. sweet of the success of that journey ; that the king's friends ( by which terms he meant the late king james's friends ) were well affected , that the king would land. that when he spoke of king william ( as sometimes he did ) he called him the little gentleman , sometimes king william , sometimes the prince of orange : but whenever he spoke of the king by way of execellency , he always meant king james . and when he spoke of the king 's landing , it could not be meant of king vvilliam , as every body knows . the prisoner has said in his defence , that the man that was sent to kensington was formerly mr. charnock's servant , and that mr. charnock desired him to let him go on a message for him . but yet , my lord , i must observe , that the evidence swears positively that he was sent by sir vvilliam parkins , and brought back the message in his almanack , to the person that lodged at the confectioners , to whom sir vvilliam parkins had directed him to resort , to that person that lodged at the confectioners over against grays-inn gate ; who did not remit him to mr. charnock , but to sir vvilliam parkins , to tell him that he would be at home till sir vvilliam parkins should be ready for him . my lord , sir vvilliam parkins has complain'd , that if he could have had time to get his evidence , he could have proved that these arms had been at his house two years , and that he sound them at his house . but if sir vvilliam parkins could prove that he had these arms in his house two years , and that he found them at his house , we would confess , and avoid it : they were recommended by a letter from mr. charnock ( a very suspicious person in this matter ) to be disposed of , and they were hid , and lay conceal'd at mr. heywood's house , till this design was disappointed , and then carried to sir vvilliam parkins's house , and were buried in his own garden for the better securing of them : and this on the breaking out of the plot. sir vvilliam says they were rusty . but now it appears they were clean , and the hilts off , packt up together , and all fit for use . my lord , in the last place , he has recourse to arguments of pity , which is the most moving of all : he has told us of his age , and family , and education . i am very unfit to answer such arguments , and unwilling to extinguish pity : but this we must answer , that he did not pity himself at that time when he might have done it : and he should have had pity upon his country , upon the best of kings and men , when they thought they had him in their power . but then they had no pity on him , for it is plain they persisted in their resolution ; after one disappointment , they proceeded to a second , and so their design was frustrated . my lord , this is the sum of the evidence , and of his defence , as well as i could recollect it . and though these considerations may not quite extinguish your pity , yet we hope it will incline you to do the king and kingdom justice ; and this is all we shall ask of you . then the lord chief justice holt directed the jury to this effect : l. c. just . holt. gentlemen of the jury , sir vvilliam parkins , the prisoner at the bar , is as you have heard , indicted for high-treason , that is , for compassing , imagining and designing the death of the present king. there have been several witnesses produced , to make this evident upon his indictment . the first of them is mr. porter , that has been a witness heretofore against several upon the like occasion . and he gives you this account , that about the latter end of may , or beginning of june last , there was a meeting of divers persons at the old kings head tavern in leaden-hall street , in this city , where they dined together . there was sir vvilliam parkins himself , sir john femwick , and divers others that he has mentioned to you . at that meeting they did consult together which way the late k. james might be restor'd ; and it was thought very necessary that there should be a french force sent over to act here in his behalf , towards his restoration . and they did among themselves agree and determin what number might be convenient , and did propose men : and that a messenger should be sent over to k. james , to endeavour to prevail with the french king to furnish him with such a number of men , to be sent over into england . mr. charnock , that was then in the company , was agreed upon among them to be the messenger to go over to king james . he accepted of it on their promise that they would raise among themselves horse , to meet king james at such time as he should land. this being at that time determined , and mr. charnock having accepted of the employment , by what i perceive , the messenger did make a preparation to go forward . a few days after this , about a week , or thereabouts , there was another meeting , at which most of the same persons were , that were present at the former , and among them sir william parkins was one : and this was at one mrs. mountjoy's house , that keeps a tavern in st. james's - street● : there they did discourse of what they had formerly agreed upon , and did consider whether or no they should proceed in that design , that was before resolv'd upon in the former meeting : and they did all of them agree to persevere in the same design , and did determin that mr. charnock should go over with that message . accordingly mr. charnock did go ; for mr. porter met him afterwards , about five or six weeks after ; and mr. charnock told him he had been there ; and that he had been with those several gentlemen that were at those meetings , and had acquainted them with the success of his errand ; which was , that king james did tell him , that at that juncture of time , the french king had such occasion for his forces , that he could not that year furnish him with them . so that is one thing proved by mr. porter against sir william parkins , in which mr. porter is very peremptory and positive . but then mr. porter tells you further , that there was a design of assassination set on foot , and that sir george berclay was engaged in it ; who about the latter end of january last , or the beginning of february , was sent over hither with a commission from the late king james . sir george barclay , and sir william parkins , captain porter , and divers others , had several meetings , in several places ; at the globe tavern in holbourn , the nag's - head , the sun tavern in the strand , and other places . and at these meetings it was taken into consideration , which was the best and most effectual way to bring about their design , to restore king james : and it was agreed among them all , that the best course that could be taken , was to kill king william : and at all these consults , at which these resolutions were taken , sir william parkins vvas present . and when mr. porter was asked , whether sir william parkins did consent to that resolution , he says , he said he thought it very convenient . this is sworn by mr. porter . this design of the assassination being so resolved upon , the next thing was , how it might be effected : and there were several ways that were proposed . one way was to assassinate him on the other side of the water , the king going frequently once a week a hunting , when he had a mind to divert himself , using to come back in the evening . then it was proposed to do it by falling upon the guards on this side of the water . the place not being agreed on where it should be done , they did send it seems three persons to view the ground ; there was mr. porter , mr. king , and one knightly . so some days before the th of february , these persons viewed the ground ; and having viewed the ground , they returned in the evening to a tavern , where these persons met together , mr. charnock , sir george berclay , sir william parkins ; and they made their report upon the view of the ground : and upon that report those persons made , it was then agreed , that the attempt should be made on this side of the water , that is , in a lane that the king was to come through ; a lane between turnham green and brentford . and when the attack was to be made thereabouts , sir william parkins was to furnish five horses , whereof three were to be mounted by men of his own providing , the other two by men of mr. porter's providing . it was mr. porter , mr. charnock , and one rookwood , that were to be principally engaged ; and the number of men were to be about forty , or somewhat more : and sir george berclay with his party , were to attack the king in his coach , while rookwood and the other party fell upon the guards . well , the time agreed upon at first , was saturday the th of february , that day it was expected the king would go out a hunting ; and there were two men planted at kensington , and they were to give notice when the king went , and those persons were to go and lye in small parties thereabouts ; and when notice was given that he was out , they were to make the attack . but it seems this design was disappointed by the king 's not going abroad that day , so they lost their end at that time . but it seems notwithstanding this , the design was not at an end ; they were not so discouraged at this disappointment , but they did agree to make another attempt : and there was another meeting that captain porter tells you of ; and that was on friday following , the st . of february , at the sun tavern in the strand , if i mistake not : and at that meeting was sir william parkins , sir george berclay , and rookwood : and they did agree to do the business the next day , in the same manner and method they formerly had agreed to . sir william parkins was not to be one himself , tho he was to provide others . you are told further , that captain porter having the misfortune to have two of his horses fall lame , he acquainted sir william parkins with it ; and sir william parkins promised to help him to two more , and mr. lewis was to furnish them . you are told further , that before this , sir william parkins sent to mr. sweet to come to town ; he sent to him about the th of february ; mr. sweet comes to town about the th of february ; there he had discourse with him , and tells him he had some work for him ; and ask'd him how he had left his family ; whether he had settled his family ? no , says sweet . then says sir william parkins , you are not fit for that employment that i intended for you ; you may go out of town again . then he comes the friday following ; then his groom was to bring some horses to town , and he does bring four to town . then mr. sweet came to town ; and on saturday sir william parkins says that he would go out of town that afternoon ; but he stayed till monday , and then he went out of town . friday following the horses came to town again , and were set up at the george inn. the next day was to be the assassination . mr. lewis was to furnish mr. porter with two horses ; five horses were to be furnish'd upon sir william parkins's account ; and five horses sir william parkins had there at that time : this is proved to you by the hostler . then mr. lewis himself comes on saturday in the afternoon , to speak with sir william parkins , to enquire for him ; but sir william was not in the way . these are circumstances that prove and confirm captain porter's evidence , as to sir william parkins providing horses : he had five horses , and mr. lewis was the person to furnish him with one , and it may be might be prevailed upon to furnish captain porter with more : but it seems there was no occasion for more , for the king did not go abroad that saturday ; this was the last saturday , so the design perfectly fell . then further , concerning the commission ; he told you at first , that he asked mr. charnock if he might see the commission ; he said , he had not seen it himself , but that sir william parkins had seen it . mr. porter was earnest with sir william parkins to know if he had seen the commission ; and sir william parkins told him he had seen it and read it , and the commission was writ with king james's own hand : this captain porter tells you . and , what was the substance of it ? to make war upon the person of the king ; called in the commission by the name of the prince of orange : he had read it , and it was writ with king james's own hand . so that , gentlemen , as to the business of the assassination , the commission was the foundation upon which they went. this is the sum and substance of captain porter's evidence , so confirmed by these circumstances . but then there is another witness , and that is mr. sweet , an acquaintance of sir william parkins ; and he tells you , that about christmas last , he was assured by sir william parkins , that the king would land. by the king he understood he meant the late king james . he asked him how he knew it ? says he , i have his word for it ; and , says he , i have saddles , and i have a troop of old soldiers ; my troop , consists of all old soldiers : this he positively says . and besides these , there were to be some voluntiers , and they were to be old officers . and he tells you , he was to go into leicestershire , and he did go at the latter end of january ; and on thursday he vvent to stratford , and lay there the first night , and the next day to leicester : there went with him one scudmore , and afterwards there was with him one yarbury : and when he came back , he said , he found the gentlemen of the west very well affected to the king's interest , and as well disposed as those of the north. then , in the next place , you are told , that about michaelmas last , mr. charnock at his desire , sends a letter into warwickshire , to one mr. heywood , to receive some goods to his house that were to come from sir william parkins , and lay them up carefully : and accordingly were those boxes , those chests sent ; and they continued to lye there until the latter end of february last ; at which time , mr. heywood says , he being in town , met sir william parkins , and spoke to him concerning those things at his house , and ask'd him what he should do with them , how shall i dispose of them says he ? whereupon sir william says , we will shortly take care of them . upon this sir william sends his servant into the country , and notice vvas given upon ash wednesday that those things should be removed , and his servant goes in the evening vvith cart and horses to fetch them home : there these chests and boxes vvere found , three great chests , out of vvhich the lesser vvere taken , and all carried avvay about nine or ten a clock at night , from that place , to sir william parkins's house in warwickshire . when they were carried there , they vvere buried , till such time as they vvere aftervvards taken : when they vvere dug up , upon the breaking open of the chests , it did appear vvhat sort of goods they vvere ; truly they were arms , a considerable quantity of arms ; there were four dozen of swords without hilts , pair of pistols , and carbines , and there was a parcel of hilts ready to be put to the swords . this gentlemen , is sworn to you by the evidence against sir william parkins : it was in the night , about the time that the plot broke out and was discover'd . and it seems the arms were not rusty arms , but they were very bright and good arms , they did not want any scouring and cleansing ; bright arms , very fit for service . and there is one circumstance more , that seems to affect sir william parkins about the assassination ; and that is a letter that was sent on saturday the th of february to one call'd brown , at kensington , early in the morning , by sir william parkins's man ; and this brown writ in his almanack , and this was sent to a man that lodged at a confectioners in holbourn , over against grays-inn-gate , ( sir william parkins remaining in town ) and he goes to that person , who seemed to be a scotch-man and talkt like a scotch-man ; and he bid him go to sir william parkins , and tell him he would be at home till he was ready to come to him . this now is the substance of the evidence given against sir william parkins . now sir william parkins says for himself , that he does admit , that for what capt. porter does say , it is a very positive evidence ; but that is but one vvitness : and no person by law , in cases of high-treason , ought to be convicted upon the testimony of one witness , let him be never so positive . for that he is in the right ; no man is to be convicted by one witness . but the question is , whether there be not two witnesses for one and the same treason , which i told you at first was for compassing , imagining and designing the death of the king ? capt. porter is clear as to the assassination ; and there is no other witness to the same overt-act ; but sweet is for the original design , which was the restoring the late king james , and for which mr. charnock was to be sent into france in may or june last , and so it was determined at the consult held as aforesaid . but then what does mr. sweet say to that , which was still a part of the same design , tho' at another time ? mr. sweet speaks of king james's landing , of a design of having a force in readiness to meet king james , and to assist him after he had landed : and this is now to the self-same purpose , even as strictly as sir william parkins himself can desire . now if there were no more in the case , if we leave out the business of the assassination , and consider only what was determined at the kings-head , and at mrs. mountjoy's tavern , and what was the advice of sir william parkins afterwards ; that sure tended to the same end , the bringing about the same sort of design that sir william parkins was ingaged in even in the summer , that is , to be ready to assist king james if he had landed at that time . now if the business of the assassination had been left out of the indictment , and there had been no more than a design and purpose to depose this king , and set up the late king upon the throne ; that had been high-treason within the statute of edw. d. that were an overt-act to prove a design for the deposing of king william . so that if the assassination were out of the case , there had been a full proof , if mr. sweet does prove any such matter , which by and by is to be considered . but then supposing the meeting at the kings-head , and at mrs. mountjoys had been omitted , then the case had been no more than this , than a design to depose the king , that is , an overt-act of a design to depose the king , never that i know contradicted . but then there is several ways thought of . first the design was by arms , without any relation to killing the king , but only by arms. then they come to think further , and to consider that the late king james cannot be restored , unless king william be killed ; and then they determine upon that . now the design of restoring the late king by arms , is one overt-act ; and the design of assassinating the king , is another overt-act . so although , the law does require there should be two witnesses to the same sort of treason ; yet the law does not require two witnesses to every overt-act : for if one witness prove one overt-act , and another witness prove another overt-act , there is two vvitnesses within the meaning of the statute . and that has been always practical , and never denied that i know of . besides , as my brother mentioned before , the new act of parliament , that has not yet taken effect , says , that there shall be one witness to one overt-act , and another to another , of the same species of treason . now it doth appear , that these are overt-acts of the same species of treason . but then sir william parkins does object , that mr. sweet , and the other witnesses besides capt. porter , do not prove any overt-act against him at all . now then you are to consider the force of mr. sweet's evidence , and i will open to you first the discourse at christmas about the late king james's landing . he told him he had his word for it , and that his troop consisted of such a number , and his providing of arms. he says these are only words . now then consider also whether these words are not overt-acts . that sir william parkins had arms , beyond what he as a private man had occasion to use , that is most plain , he does not give any account about it . he says he wants witnesses , and that he had not time to provide witnesses ; he does not give any account to what purpose he should have them , or what he was to do with them . being a private man , certainly he had not occasion for these arms. then the removing these arms to mr. heywood's house , and then afterwards carrying them away in the night to his own house , and burying them , a little after the plot was discovered ; then what kind of arms these were . if providing of arms were an overt-act , having of arms was certainly an overt-act . and then , gentlemen , he had a troop ; his troop consisted of old soldiers , and he had arms. now mens discourses and words must explain their actions . an indifferent action may be explained by words . it is lawful for a man to buy a horse and pistols ; but if he tell any one he will buy a pistol , and with that immediately go and murther the king ; if he tell you he will buy a horse , and go with it and lie in wait for the king , and kill the king ; there his own words are an explication what he bought his horse and pistol for . now when he says the late king is to land , and arms are found upon him , i must leave it to your consideration to what purpose he would use his arms , seeing he gave no account what they were for . but he tells you he found them at his house in warwickshire two years ago . but to have such a quantity of arms , was no way suitable to the circumstances he was in . then another thing was his going into leicestershire with capt. scudmore ; there meets him one mr. yarbury : and he comes back on thursday , and home to bushy on monday night ; and tells mr. sweet he found the gentlemen of that country were very well affected to the king , as well affected in the west as they were in the north. what king must he mean ? he had no commission from king william , he does not pretend to it , to go into leicestershire to know the minds and affections of men there ; he had no authority from king william to go upon such a design . and then speaking that the king would land , whether he means king james or no , i must leave it to your consideration . it is very true , it is not fit that there should be any strained or forced construction made , when a man is upon a trial for his life ; that is out of question , you ought to have very satisfactory evidence to convince you that a prisoner is guilty of what he is charged with . but however you are to consider , not only the things , but the circumstances that do attend those things , and the circumstances men are under , when they do or act any thing whatsoever . for to pretend in this case , that sir william parkins went to know the affections of the people in licestershire to king william ; and that he meant those in the west were as well affected to him as those in the north , cannot be imagined . and mr. sweet tells you , that always when he did speak of the kings landing , he understood him to mean the late king james . and indeed that must be meant : for king william was in england , and landed before , and it does not appear that sir william parkins had any design to engage himself in king william's service . so that i must upon the whole matter leave it to your own consideration ; if you are satisfied that sir william parkins is guilty of this matter wherewith he is charged , then you are to find him guilty ; you have heard the evidence , and you are to consider of it . if you are not satisfied in the matter for which he stands charged in the indictment , then you are to acquit him . then the jury withdrew to consider of their verdict , and an officer was sworn to keep them , according to law , till agreed ; and about a quarter of an hour afterwards they returned into court , and the prisoner was brought to the barr. clerk of arr. gentlemen , answer to your names , william northey . mr. northey , here , ( and so of the rest . ) cl. of arr. gentlemen , are you agreed of your verdict ? jury . yes . cl. of arr. who shall say for you ? jury . our foreman . cl. of arr. sir william parkins , hold up thy hand ( which he did ) look upon the prisoner ; how say ye , is he guilty of the high-treason , whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty , my lord. cl. of arr. what goods or chattels , lands or tenements , had he at the time of the high-treason committed , or at any time since ? foreman . none that we know of . goaler , look to him , he is found guilty of high-treason . cl. of arr. then hearken to your verdict as the court has recorded it . you say that sir william parkins is guilty of the high-treason whereof he stands indicted ; but that he had no goods nor chattels , lands nor tenements , at the time of the high-treason committed , or at any time since , that you know of . l. c. j. holt. discharge the jury . cl. of arr. gentlemen , the court discharges you , and thanks you for your service . l. c. j. holt. then we had best adjourn the court till five in the evening . cl. of arr. cryer , make proclamation . sir william parkins . my lord , if you please , i desire i may have the liberty of friends , and relations , and a minister to come to me , and that they may be in private with me . l. c. j. holt. you shall have an order of court for the same . cryer . oyes , oyes , oyes : all manner of persons , that have any thing more to do , at this general sessions of the peace , sessions of oyer and terminer , holden for the city of london ; and goal-delivery of newgate , holden for the city of london , and county of middlesex , may depart from hence for this time , and give their attendance here again at five in the evening , and so god save the king . about six of the clock , the lord mayor , mr. common serjant , and several justices of the city of london returned into court , and proclamation being made for attendance , the prisoner was brought to the bar. cl. of cr. sir william parkins , hold up thy hand . thou standest convicted of high-treason , for conspiring the death of our sovereign lord king william iii. what hast thou to say for thy self why judgment should not pass against thee to dye according to law ? sir william parkins . i have nothing more to say . cl. of cr. all manner of persons are commanded to keep silence while judgment is giving , upon pain of imprisonment . then sentence was pronounced againct sir john friend , and sir william parkins together . mr. com. serj. you the prisoners at the bar , sir john friend and sir william parkins , have been indicted for high-treason , in conspiring the death of the king ; for tryal thereof you have put your selves upon your countrey , which countrey have found you guilty the crimes you are convicted of , are the greatest a man can commit . murder and robbery are injuries but to private persons : but to contrive the destruction of the king , is letting in ruin upon thousands of people . for robbery and murder there may be something pleaded for justification , as for private revenge &c. but to set , conspire , and debate the destruction of a prince , the best of men , the father of his countrey , no man ever had any colour of excuse for that . i would not add to your unhappiness , i am sorry for the severe judgment that you have brought upon your selves . all that remains for me to do , is , to pronounce on you the sentence . and the court doth award , that you , and each of you , be carried to the place from whence you came , and from thence be drawn on a hardle to the place of execution , and be there severally hanged , but cut down while you are alive ; that your privy members be cut off ; that your bowels be taken out , and burnt before your faces ; that your heads be sever'd from your bodies , and your bodies be divided into four quarters , and your quarters to be at the king's disposal : and the lord have mercy on your souls . then the court adjourned to the d . day of april . finis . a true copy of the papers delivered by sir john freind , and sir william parkins , to the sheriffs of london and middlesex , at tyburn , the place of execution , april the third , . sir john freind 's paper . knowing that i must immediately give account to god of all my actions , and that i ought to be especially careful of what i say in these last hours , i do solemnly profess , that what i here deliver is from my very soul , with all the heartiness and sincerity of a dying christian . the cause i am brought hither to suffer for , i do firmly believe to be the cause of god and true religion , and to the best and utmost of my knowledge and information agreeable to the laws of the land , which i have evermore heard do require a firm duty and allegiance to our sovereign ; and that as no foreign , so neither any domestick power can alienate our allegiance . for it is altogether new and unintelligible to me , that the king's subjects can depose and dethrone him on any account , or constitute any that have not an immediate right in his place . we ought , i think , not to do this ; and surely when it is done , to assist him in the recovery of his right , is justifiable and our duty . and however things may seem at present , i do believe , i am sure i heartily pray , that he shall be one day restored to his rightful throne and dominions . as for any sudden descent of his majesty upon these his dominions , in order to the recovery of them , i declare i had no certain knowledge of it , nor can i tell what grounds there was to believe it , so little reason had i to be in a present preparation for it . i suppose it is not expected i should here endeavour to clear my self of the assassination , which was not the thing alledg'd against me ; however , it was mention'd , through what means i know not : as it was insinuated to my disadvantage , i forgive such as were therein instrumental : and i do also from the very bottom of my soul , freely forgive , and beg of god to do so too , such as were any ways accessary towards the taking away my life , which i really look upon to be their misfortune more than mine . i profess my self , and i thank god i am so , a member of the church of england , though , god knows , a most unworthy and unprofitable part of it ; of that church which suffers so much at present for a strict adherence to lovalty , the laws , and christian principles . for this i suffer , and for this i dye . though i have a perfect charity for people of all professions , and do heartily wish well , and would endeavour so to do , to all my fellow-subjects , of what persuasions soever . and indeed , i have met with a great deal of uprightness and sincerity among some people of very different opinions in religious matters . and i hope and desire it may not be taken as an uncharitable censure , or undue reflection , that i objected to the legality of popish evidence , being advised so to do for my better security , upon the foundation of a statute law. having owned my self a member of the church of england , i must take this opportunity , and i do it for god's glory , to apply my self to you that are royalists of that church , and of the same faith and principles with my self : and i beg of you for god's sake , and the love of your souls , to be very constant and serious in all religious offices , and holy duties of divine worship and service , which i have too much neglected , as i own to my great sorrow : let no excuse , no dangers , prevent or hinder you in these most necessary and serious matters ; and be , i beseech you , very careful and circumspect in all your actions , behaviour , and conversation , as i earnestly exhorted all that came to me . i have , i thank god , a great deal of satisfaction in my present sufferings , and have found it so ever since i have been under them : and blessed be god it doth continually increase upon me . and i do now lay down my life with all chearfulness and resignation , in sure and certain hope of a resurrection to eternal life , through our lord jesus christ ; through whose merits alone i hope for the pardon of my sins , and the salvation of my soul. and so , o lord , into thy hands i commend my spirit , for thou hast redeemed me , o lord , thou god of truth . and i do heartily and humbly beseech thee almighty god , and my most gracious father , to forgive and bless this sinful nation ; deliver it from the guilt of rebellion , blood , and perjury , that is now on all sides more than ever , and from all those other hainous sins which cry aloud . preserve and bless this church . comfort our distressed king ; restore him to his right , and his misled subjects to their allegiance : bless also his royal consort , our gracious queen mary ; his royal highness the prince of wales , that he may grow in stature , and in favour with god and man ; support and strengthen all those that suffer in any kind for a good cause ; give them patience under all their afflictions , and a happy deliverance out of them . forgive all mine enemies . pardon my former neglect , and remissness in religious worship , and holy duties , and all the sins i have been guilty of to this very moment . consider my contrition , accept my tears ; and now thou art pleased to take me hence , take me into thy favour , and grant that my soul may be without spot presented unto thee , through the merits of thy most dearly beloved son , jesus christ our lord. amen . john freind . sir william parkins's paper . it hath not been my custom to use many words , and i shall not be long upon this occasion , having business of much greater consequence to employ my thoughts upon . i thank god i am now in a full disposition to charity , and therefore shall make no complaints , either of the hardships of my trial , or any other rigours put upon me . however one circumstance i think my self obliged to mention ; it was sworn against me by mr. porter , that i had own'd to him , that i had seen and read a commission from the king , to levy war upon the person of the prince of orange : now i must declare , that the tenour of the king's commission , which i saw , was general , and directed to all his loving subjects , to raise and levy war against the prince of orange and his adherents , and to seize all forts , castles , &c. which , i suppose , may be a customary form of giving authority to make war ; but i must confess , i am not much acquainted with matters of that nature : but as for any commission particularly levelled against the person of the prince of orange , i neither saw nor heard of any such . it 's true i was privy to the design upon the prince , but was not to act in it ; and am fully satisfied that very few , or none , knew of it , but those who undertook to do it . i freely acknowledge , and think it for my honour to say , that i was entirely in the interest of the king , being always firmly perswaded of the justice of his cause , and looked upon it as my duty , both as a subject , and an english-man , to assist him in the recovery of his throne , which i believed him to be deprived of , contrary to all right and justice ; taking the laws and constitutions of my country for my guide . as for my religion , i dye in the communion of the church of england , in which i was educated . and as i freely forgive all the world , so whoever i may any ways have injured , i heartily ask them pardon . william parkins . the tryals of sir george wakeman baronet. william marshall, william rumley, & james corker, benedictine monks for high treason, for conspiring the death of the king, subversion of the government, and protestant religion. at the sessions in the old-bayley, holden for london and middlesex on fryday the th. of july . published by authority. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryals of sir george wakeman baronet. william marshall, william rumley, & james corker, benedictine monks for high treason, for conspiring the death of the king, subversion of the government, and protestant religion. at the sessions in the old-bayley, holden for london and middlesex on fryday the th. of july . published by authority. wakeman, george, sir, fl. - , defendant. marshall, william, defendant. rumley, william, d. , defendant. corker, james maurus, - , defendant. p. [s.n.], dublin : reprinted . the words "william marshall, .. corker," are gathered by a right brace on the title page. copy cropped at foot. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng charles -- ii, -- king of england, - -- early works to . wakeman, george, -- sir, fl. - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . marshall, william -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . rumley, william, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . corker, james maurus, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - taryn hakala sampled and proofread - taryn hakala text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryals of sir george wakeman baronet . william marshall , william rumley , & james corker , benedictine monks . for high treason , for conspiring the death of the king , subversion of the government , and protestant religion . at the sessions in the old bayley , holden for london and middlesex or fryday the th , of july . published by authority . dvblin , reprinted . the tryal's &c. vpon fryday the th . of july , . at the sessions● house in the old-bayley , london , the court being met , and proclamation made for attendance the trials proceeded thus . cl. of cr. sir george wakeman , william marshall , and william rumley to the bar. sir george wakeman hold up thy hand , which he did . ( and so of the other two . you stand indicted by the names of sir george wakeman late of the parish of st , giles in the fields , in the county of middl : bar : william marshall of the same parish and county gent : and william rumley of the same parish and county gent. for that you as false traitors against the most illustrious , serene & most excellent prince charles the second , by the grace of god of england , scotland , france , & ireland , king , defender of the faith , &c : your supream and natural lord , the fear of god in your hearts not having , nor weighing the duty of your allegiance , but being moved & seduced by the instigation of the devil & the cordial love , true ▪ due & natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , do & of right ought to bear , towards him , our said soveraign lord the king utterly withdrawing and ende●● ouring and intending with all your strength the peace and common tranquility of this kingdom of england to disturb , and the true worship of god within this kingdom of england used , and by the laws of the same established , to overthrow , and the government of this realm to subvert , & sedition and rebellion within this kingdom of england to move stir up and procure , and the cordial love , true , due and natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , ought and of right are bound to bear towards him our said soveraign lord the king wholly to withdraw , put out & extinguish , & him our said soveraign lord the king to death & final destruction to bring & put , you the said sir george wakeman , william marshall & william rumley the th day of august , in the th . year of the reign of our said soveraign lord king charles the second , at the parish of st : giles in the field , of resaid , in the county aforesaid falsly , malieiously , subtilly , advisedly and traiterously , did purpose , compass , imagine , & intend fed●tion and rebellion within this kingdom of england , to move , stir up and procur● ; and miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said sovereign lord the king to cause and procure , and our said soveraign lord the king , from his royal state , title power , and government of his said kingdom of england , wholly to deprive , depose , cast down and disih●● herit , and 〈◊〉 our said soveraign . 〈◊〉 be king to death and final destruction to being and put , and the government of this kingdom of england and the sne●● religion of god within the s●me rightly and by the laws of the same established , at your will and pleasure to change and 〈◊〉 and the state of this whole kingdom of england , through all 〈◊〉 parts well in t●●uted and 〈…〉 wholy to subvert and destroy , and war against oursaid soverain lord the king within this kingdom of england to levy ; to accomplish and fulfill those your m●st wicked treasons , and traiterous imaginations , & purposes , you the said sir george wakeman , will. marshall and will ▪ rumley , and other false traitors unknown , the aforesaid th . day of august with force and arms at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , maliciously , subtilly advisedly , and traiterously , did assemble , unite , and gather your selves together ; & then and there falsly maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devillishly and traiterously did consult , consent and agree ; our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring and put , and the religion within this kingdom of england rightly and by the laws of the same established , to change and alter to the superstition of the church of rome ; and to move , procure and perswade them the said william marshall william rumley and other false traiters unknown , to the agreement aforesaid to fulfill and accomplish ; you the said sir george wakeman after , to wit , the said th . day of aug. in the parish aforesaid in the county aforesaid , to them the said william marshal , william rumley and other false traitors unkown did traiterously promise to give your assistance the government of this kingdom to subvert , and the true worship of god in this realm rightly and by the laws thereof established , and us●d to the superstition of the church of rome to alter : and that you the said sir george wakeman then & there falsly , malitiously , subtilly , advisedly , devillishly and traiterously did undertake to kill & murder ●ur said soveraign lord the king : and in further prosecution of the treasons traite●ous conspira●ies , intentio●s and agreements aforesaid , you the said sir george wakeman the said th day of august at the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , falsly traiterously and against the duty of your allegiance , did receive and had ( from a certain person unknown , pretending to be provincial of the jesuits in england , and claiming authority for the granting comm●ssions in that part from the see of rome , ) one commission to institute and authorise you the said sir george wakeman to be physitian general of the army , to be raised for the waging war against our said sovereign lord the king within this kingdom of england , and the same commission then and there falsly , advisedly , maliciously and traiterously did inspect and read over , and traiterously did keep in your possession , and to the same falsly , knowingly , advisedly and traiterously did consent and agree , with that intention , that you the said sir g●orge w●keman should have receive & exercise the place and office of p●ysitian general of the army aforesaid , when you the said sir george wakeman , william marshall , william rumley and the said other false traitors unknown , should have performed and accomplished your treasons , compassings , imaginations , purposes and traiterous agreements aforesaid . and that you the said william marshall and william rumley in further prosecution of your treason● , traiterous c●●spiracies , intentions and agreements aforesaid , the said th day of august in the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , did fa●sly , subtilly and traiterously consult , conclude , consent and agree that you the said wil●●am marshall , william rumley and other false traitors unknown should pay the sum of l . t●wards furthering & co●summating the traiterous agreements aforesaid , amongst the said false traitors had , our said soveraign lord the king to kill and murther the true worship of god within this realm rightly and by the laws of the same established to the superstit●on of the church of rome to alter , and the government of this kingdom of england to sub●ert , against the duty of your allegiance , against the peace of our said soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute in this case made and provided . cl. of cr ▪ how sayest thou sir george wakeman , art thou guilty of this high-treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? sir george wakeman , not guilty . cl. of cr. culprit . how wilt thou be tried ? sir george wak●man , by god and my country . cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance . ( and so the other two. ) cl. of cr. set james corker to the bar. ( who was arraigned and pleaded the last sessions . ) james corker , hold up thy hand . you the prisoners at the bar , sir george w●keman , william rumley , william marshal and james corker , those men that you shall hear called and personally appear , are to pass between our soveraign lord the king & you upon trial of your several lives and deaths ; if therefore you or any of you will challenge them , or any of them , your time is to speak unto them as they come to the book to be sworn , and before they be sworn . call ralph hawtrey esq ; who appeared , and there being no challenges , the that were sworn are as follows . jury . ralph hawtrey of rislipp esq : henry hawley of new brantford esq : henry hodges of hanwell esq : richard downton of isl●worth esq : john bathurst of edmunton esq : robert hampton of greenford esq : william heydon of greenford esq : john baldwyn of hillingdon esq : richard dobbins of harvile esq : william av●ry of enfield esq : richard white of cripplegate gent : william wayte of st , clement danes gent : cl. of cr. cryer cou●t these . ralph hawtrey ▪ . cryer , one , &c. cl. of cr , richard white . cryer , twelve good men and true , stand together and hear your evidence . then the usual proclamation for information was made , and the prisoners being bid to hold up their hands , the c●●rk of the crown charged the jury with them thus . cl. of cr. you of the jury , look upon the prisoners , and hearken to their cause . they stand indicted by the names of ( prout in the indictment mutatis matandis ) and against the form of the statute in that case made and provided ; and he the said james corker , stands indicted by the name of james corker of the parish of st giles in the fields ▪ in the county of middlesex clerk : for that , he with thomas white , john fenwick , william harcourt , john gaven , and anthony turner , as a false traitor against the most illustrious , most serene , and most excellent prince , charl●s the second , by the grace of god , of england ▪ scotland , france and i●eland , king , defender of the faith , &c. his supream and natural lord ; not having the fear of god in his heart , nor weig●ing the duty of his allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , true , due , and natural obedience , which , true and faithfull subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , towards him should , and of right ought to bear , wholly withdrawing ; and devising , and withall his strength , intending the peace and comm●n tranquility of this realm to disturb , and the true worship of god within this kingdom of england used , and by the law established , to overthrow , and the govermen● of th●● realm to subv●rt and sedition and rebellion within this kingdom of england to move sti●up and procure , and the cordial love , and true , and due obedience which true and faithful subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , towards him should , and of right ought to bear utt●●ly to withdraw , put out , and extinguish , and our said soveraign lord the king to death and final destruction to bring , and put , on the th day of april , in the thirtieth year of the reign of our said soveraign lord king charles the second● at the parish of st giles in the fields , in the county of middlesex aforesaid ; he the said jam●s 〈◊〉 , tog●ther , with the said thoma● white ; john fe●wick , william harcourt , john gave● , and a thony t●rper , with divers other false traitors subjects of our said soveraign l●rd th● king , to the jurors unknown , falsly , subt●lly , advisedly , maliciously , and trait●rously , 〈◊〉 purpose , compass , imagine , and intend sedition and rebellion within this kingdom of england to move , stir up , and procure , and a miserable slaughter among the subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , to procure , and cause , and our said soveraign lord the king of his kingly state , title , power and government of his said kingdom of england , u●terly to deprive , depose , cast dawn , and disinherit , and him our said soveraign lord the king , to death and final destruction , to bring , and put , and the government of this kingdom of england , and the sincere religion of god within the same , rightly , and by the laws of the same established , at his will and pleasure , to change and alter , and the state of this whole kingdom of england , through all its parts well instituted and ordained , wholly to subvert and destroy , and war within this kingdom of england , against our said soveraign lord the king to levy : and to accomplish , and fulfil their said most wicked treasons and traiterous imiginations and purposes ; he the said james corker , together with the said thomas , white , john fenwick , william harcourt , john gavan and anthony turner , and other false traitors against our said soveraign lord the king , to the jurors unknown , the said th day of april , with force and arms ▪ &c. in the parish aforesaid , and county aforesaid , falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devillishly , and traiterously did assemble , unite and gather together , and then and there falsly , maliciously , subtilly , advisedly , devillishly and troiterously did consult , consent and agree , our said soveraign lord the king , to death and final destruciton to bring and put , and the religion of this kingdom of england , rightly , and by the laws of the same established , to the superst●on of the romish church to change and alter , and the government of this kingdom of england to subvert ; and that one thomas pickering , and one john grove , should kill and murder our said soveraign lord the king , and that he the said james c●●ker , together with the said thomas white john fenwick , william harcourt , john gavan and anthony turner , and other false traitors , against our said soveraign lord the king , to the jurors unknown , should therefore say , celebrate , and perform , a certain number of masses then and there amongst themselves agreed on , for the soul of the said thomas pickering , and for that cause , should pay to the said john grove , a certain sum of money , then and there amongst themselves agreed on ; and that be the said james corker , together with the said thomas white , john fenwick , william harcourt , john gavan and anthony turner , and other false traitors to the jurors unknown , in further prosecution of the treasons and traiterous consultations and agreements aforesaid ; afterwards the said four and twentieth day of april , and the parish aforesaid , in the county aforesaid , falsly , subtilly , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly , and traiterously , did severally each to the other engage themselves , and upon the sacrament traiterously did swear and promise , to conceal , and not to divulge the said most wicked treasons , and traiterous compassings , consultations and purposes aforesaid amongst themselves had , traiterously to kill and murder our said soveraign lord the king , and to introduce the romish religion within this kingdom of england , and the true reformed religion within this realm , rightly and by the laws of the same established , to alter and change : and that he the said james corker , together with the said thomas white , john fenwick , william harcourt ▪ john gavan and anthony turner , and other false traitors to the jurors unknown , in fu●ther prosecution of their said treasons and traiterous intentions , and agreements aforesaid , afterwards the said four and twentieth day of april , at the parish aforesaid , in th● county af●resaid , falsly , subtilly , advisedly , maliciously , devillishly , and traiterously , did prepare , perswade , excite , abet comfort and counsel four other persons to the jurors unkn●wn , subjects of our said soveraign lord the king , traiterously our said soveraign lord the king to kill and murder , against the duty of his allegiance , against the peace of our soveraign the king , his crown and dignity , and again● the form of the statute in that case made and provided . upon these several indictments they have been arraigned , and thereunto have severally pleaded , not guilty , and for their trial put themselves on god and their countrey , which countrey are you . your charge is to enquire , whether they be guilty of the high treason whereof they be indicted , in manner and form as they stand indicted , or not guilty , &c. then edward ward esq ; of counsel for the king in this cause , opened the indictment thus . mr. ward . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , sir george wakeman bar. william marshal , and william rumley , the prisoners at the bar stand indicted ; for that they as false traitors against our soveraign lord the king charles the second , their supream and natural lord , not having the fear of god before their : eyes ; did traiterously endeavour and intend with all their strength the peace 〈◊〉 tranquility of this kingdom of england to disturb , and the worship of god in the same rightly , and by the laws of the same established , and the government of the kingdom in all its parts well instituted and ordered , to subvert and overthrow , and sedition and rebellion within the same , to move and procure , and to bring and put the king to death and final destruction ; and to that purpose the th of august , in the th year of the king that now is , they did falsly , maliciously , subtilly advisedly , and traiterously compass , imagine , intend , and devise those things that i have enumerated to you ; that is sedition and rebellion in the kingdom to move , the peace and tranquility of the same to disturb , the worship of god to overthrow , and the king from his royal state , title , power , and government , wholly to depose , and to put the king to death and final destruction , and the religion at their wills and pleasure ; to alter , and to introduce the romish superstition , and war within the kingdom to levy against our soveraign lord the king. and to accomplish these treasons and purposes , they the prisoners at the bar , with other false traitors unknown , the day and year before mentioned , did assemble and meet together , and did then and there consen● and agree to put the king to death and final destruction . and to perswade marshal and rumley to these treasons , the said sir george wakeman promised his assistance ; first , to subvert the government , and then to alter the religion to the romish superstition , and traiterously undertook to kill the king : and he did receive for that purpose , from the pretended provincial of the jesu●ts in england , ( who claimed an authority from the see of rome , of granting out commission ) a commission which constituted him physicia● general of the army ; which army was to be raised for the levying of war against the king , and the subversion of the government and religion : that he read this commission , that he kept it in his possession , that he consented to it , accepted it , and intended to execute the employment , whe● their designs were accomplished . the indictment further sets forth , that marshal , and rumley , a●d other false traitors , agreed to pay the sum of l . for the carrying on and effecting of this treason ; and this is laid , to be against the duty of their alleg●ance , ag●●nst the kings peace , crown and dignity , and against the form of the statute . to this i●●ictment , they have pleaded , not guilty ; if we make out these crimes against them or any of them , you are to find them guilty . there is also another indicted , that is james corke● ; for that he ●s a false tra●tor . against the king , and withdrawing his allegiance , and due and natural obedience which he owed to him , as his soveraign , together with other persons there mentioned , white , fenwick , harcourt , gaven and turner , did intend to overthrow the religion , to subvert the government , and to do all those treasons that i have here enumerated , and that they did the th . of april in the th . year of this king , at the parish of st. giles in the fields in your county , compass and imagin the kings dea●h , levying of war ▪ and those other things and in order thereunto , they did contrive that pickering and grove should kill the king , and that corker and the others should say masses for the soul of pickring , and should pay grove a sume of money . that to this they plighted their fai●h and received the sacrament upon 〈◊〉 : and the corker and others the day and year aforesaid , traiterously perswaded , excited and abetted four other persons to murder the king. to this he hath pleaded not guilty , if we prove him guilty of any of these things , we hope you will find it so . then sir robert sawyer one of the kings learned council in the law , opened the chargethus . sir robert sawyer . my lord , & you gentlemen of the jury , the prisoners at the bar with whom you are charged , stand indicted as principal actors and instruments of that late most catholick and bloody plot sometime since discovered , and i hope by the blessing of a mighty god in a great measure prevented . the design , gentlemen , was against the king and the church ; both church and state were too little a sacrifice to be offered up to the universal supremacy of rome . they well knew , gentlemen , that so long as god should preserve the life of our prince , and as long as those legal pales , whe●ewith the church of england is e●compassed , di● but continue firm , neither the gates of hell nor rome could prevail against it . and i wish that all protestants were of the same mind . i shall not enter now into any large discourse of it nor trace the several steps of this plot , which is so well known to all men of this n●tion at this day , but only touch upon those parts of it that ●o concern the prisoners now at the bar , unless they shall give me occasion to recur to any former passage● gentlemen , we shall make proof to you , that the th of april . there was a very great consult of a numerous company of jesuits here in london ; and there was the foundation laid or at least the exec●tion was then determined of bringing this plot to its accomplishment . to this consult we shall make it appear , that the gentlemen at the bar were privy and consenting to it . the king must die that is resolved on , and you have hea●d formerly of the several ways that it was to be acted ; ●ome persons were desig●ed to shoot him , these have received their tryal and condign punishment ; then there was another sett , and they were to stab him , and some of these have been brought to juistce too ; but th●n there was a third sort , ( for they did invent all the imaginable ways of death ) and that was poysoning ; that & will come principally before you at this time . and they had chosen out a very proper instrument for it , a gentleman whose experience 〈◊〉 him able , wh●se near relation● to and dependance upon the royal family , gave him a great opportunity to commit that horrid crime . but gentlemen , tho his perswasion might go a great way yet he would not ●oi gratis , and thereupon he must be hired for a great sum 〈◊〉 money not under l , and then he undertook that great employment . we shall prove to you that this was his bargain , that part of his wages he had received , for he would be su●e of something in hand before the work were done . we shall make it appear , gentlemen , that he was privey also to the consult ( for i apply my self at present peculiarly to him ) and approved of it . and as a further reward besides that of money , he was to be preferred to be physitian general of the army that was then to be raised , that employment was designed for him , nay he accepted of the commission as we shall endeavour to prove to you : we shall also prove , that the other gentlemen at the bar , the other male●actors that stand there , were privy to the great consult of the death of the king. that there was l . which was to be furnished by the pen●dictine monks , for tho the jesuits were the great engineers , yet all other orders were to contribute , and l . was to be furnished by them . and in the course of our evidence we shall give you several instances which will concernall these particular prisoners now at the bar ; and one truly that there was such a design of poysoning , which is very remarkable and that was from a very great engineer that hath suffered already , and that was mr. ireland , and wherein i must desire that you would observe another thing that falls out very materially , that though mr. ireland at the time of his death , and all along disowned that he was here in london in august , and with great asseverations did affirm it ; it will appear by the course of our evidence that he was here in london then , and had frequently discourses that it was an easie matter to take off the king by poyson : and for that purpose do i mention it to you as an in●●ance that poyson was one of the great ways that they intended to murther the king by . and gentlemen you will collect from that evidence what credit is fit to be given to the words of such dying men , and whether living witnesses that are upon their oathes , are not rather to be believed then those whose concern it is for more reasons then one to perswade the people that they are inno●ent . and you will likewise collect , that those who have lived in the sin of comitting such horrid crimes as these are , will not stick to protect that same church ( wh●ch they would propagate by those crimes ) by denying the plainest truth . we will not trouble you any further with the opening of the evidence , because the witnesses are many and their testimony various , but we shall call our witnesses and let them tell it you themselves . mr. ward . call dr. o●tes , mr. bedlow , mr. dugdale mr. jenison and mr. pran●● ; ( who were all sworn , and mr. dugdale set up . ) sir robert sawyer . gentlemen , we call first mr. dugdale to give you a general account of the plot , not so much for the proof of the things here charged particularly on the prisoners , as the general design . mr. word . pray sir speak your knowledge of what you know concerning the plot in general . mr. dugdale . i have for this years known something of it ; but nothing particularly till within these two years . about two years since it was communicated to me be mr. ew●rs , mr. gavan , mr. peters , mr. lews●n , and some other priests which i cannot now remember their n●mes and they did perswade me to be of the management of the business , for the car●ying on of the design , for the introducing their religion , and for the killing of the king , and the duke of monmouth ; both those two things were communicated to me upon my o●th by mr. gaven , mr. ewers . mr. peters mr. lewson and my lord stefford . mr. j. atkins , what mr. gaven that was executed you mean ? mr. dugdale , yes he was the man. i have had several pacquets of letters which co●cerned the plot : all the letters that came from mr. harcourt or from any others concerning the plot , were directed to me : i have had sometimes , sometimes , sometimes more letters at a time , but i never saw any almost but they all tended to the carrying on of this design . lo●d ch. just . did they shew you those letters , or did you open them ? mr. dugdile . i did open several of them , a great many , and some of them that i could not handsomly seal up again , i kept . lord ch. j. they did not know you opened them ? mr. dugdale no they did not all the time . l. c. j. to what purpose did they write ? mr. du●dale . my lord , they were to give instructions to mr. ewers how he should manage the affairs for carrying on the design , how he must go about for the raising of money , and for the ingaging the gentlemen in the countrey , as particularly mr. gerard of hilderson . and mr. h●ward of h●recross , and sir james simms and one gent●●men that is de●d , one captain atherley and several other gentlemen were engaged in it , to be officers when they had accomplished their business of killing the king. si● robert sawyer . you say they were to be officers , what were they to be military officers ? or what . mr. dugdale . yes they were to be military officers . sir. robert sawyer . was there any army to be r●ised ? mr. dugdale . yes , there was an army spoken of to be raised . s●r robert sawyer , by whom ? mr. dugdale . there was money ready in july'ast , for i saw acquittances that came from s● . omers that the money was paid . but then there was caution given to be sure not to make any rumor of arms or any thi●g , till the king was dispatched . l. c. j. did they write that in a letter ? mr. dugdale , they writ that in a letter directed to me ? l. c. j. to you ? mr. dugdale , yes , to me . l. c. j who writ that letter ? mr. dugdale . my lord , tru●y i cannot be certain at present who it was , but upon recol●ection i can , may be , remember who it was : but it contained that there should be caution given to all , to be sure that none should mention armes , or any thing till the king was dispatched . sir robert. sawyer . from whence did that letter come mr. dugdale ? mr. dugdale , it came from , harcourt i am certain , and in mr . grove's pacquet , but i am not certain of the person that writ the letter , but i can recollect hereafter perhaps who it was . lord ch. just . did it come from beyond-sea or london . mr ▪ d●gdale . it came from london , i s●ppose it came thither from beyond-sea . lord ch. just . the letter came to you , you say , was it dated from any place and what ? mr. dugdale , i am not certain whether it was dated from any place , there were several let●ers that came from all parts , som● from s. omers , some from paris , some from rome . sir robert sawyer , pray what do you know of any correspondence that was between your principal 〈…〉 staffordshire , and those conspirators here at london . mr. dugdale . yes . there was a correspondence between them . lord ch. just . between whom ? name them . mr. dugdale , betwixt mr . ewers , mr . gaven , and mr . vavasor . these were in staffordshire ; and betwixt mr . ireland , mr . harcourt , mr . fenwick , and mr . grove , these i know . l. c. j , where were these last ? mr. dugdale , in london these persons were , they did write constantly three times a week letter into staffordshire about this business . l. c. j. but pray was there any thing mentioned in any of these letters concerning killing the king. mr. dugdale yes , there was . l. c. j. was there any thing plain of that in those letters ? mr. dugdale there was in one from mr . whitebread . l. c. j. what did that letter say ? mr. dugdale there was one from him that did give a caution to mr . ewers , that he should be sure to choose no persons but such as were stout & hardy , or to that effect . l. c. j. to do what ? mr . dugdale . to kill the kin● l. c. j. was that expressed in the letter . mr. dugdale , yes my lord it was . l. c. j. and did they write that they should choose hardy persons to kill the king. was that the subject of 〈◊〉 ? mr. dugdale , yes , my lord it was . l. c. j. did it come by the common post ? mr. dugdale yes my lord it did , but they had devised it so , that there was care taken they should not be discovered , they would set but two letters of their names to them and they were directed all to me , so that i was to bea● all the danger . s●● robert sawyer . how was the direction ? was it directed plainly to you on the out-side ? mr. dugdale , yes it was , and if it were discovered , i was sworn by mr . ewers to deny it , and 〈◊〉 they could not be discovered . mr. j. atkins did they give you any oath to that purpose ? mr. dugdale yes , i was sworn to times at least to secresie , and promised it on the sacrament . sir rob. sawyer . besides what came in those letters , had you any discourse with any touching killin● the king ? m. dugdale , y●s . sir robert sawyer ▪ with whom ? mr. dugdale . with mr . gavan , mr . ewers , mr . lewson and my lord stafford . l. c. j. and would they have perswaded you to have done it ? mr. dugdale yes , i was to have been employed as an actor in it , either to have taken his life away by shooting , or by st●bbing , or some way . l. c. j. did they proposeit to you , & how , in what manner would they have you do it ? mr. dugdale , no my lord , i was not told absolutely in what manner ; but i was directed to come to london , and i should have instructions about it there . l. c. j. tell us again who they were 〈◊〉 did s●licit you ? mr. dugdale . mr . ewers , mr . gavan , mr . peters , mr . lewson and my lord stafford . mr. j atkins . my lord stafford you say ? mr. dugdale , yes , i said so before , my lord. l. c. j they ingaged you in the business in general you say , and you were to have directions about it at london . that is that you say ? mr. d●gd . yes my lord , mr. ireland was to take care of me there . sir rob. sawyer . pray sir had you discourse of the several ways , what ways were to be taken . mr. dugd. i had no particular way mentioned , but i was told that it was easie to be done by shooting or stabbing . l. c. j. did you ever come to london upon that errand ? mr. dugd. no , never . l. c. j. when they had ingaged you to do the thing , why did not they send you about it . mr. dugd. i was not to come till october . l. c. j. when was it that you were ingaged first ? m● . dugd. i had particular intimation of the matter of the plot about two years before , but i was not to come up till october . l. c. j. which october ? mr. dugd. last october . l. c. j. why you were ingaged a great while before , how chanced you were not to come up till october . mr. dugdale , i was engaged a year and a half before , but it was not positively then said to me , that i was to be instrumental in killing the king till that time , which was about july , when my lord stafford came down , and i was to come up in october . l. c. j. i thought you had said that you were ingaged in it a year and half before . mr. dugdale . that was only in the plot in general . l. c. j. was there no time appointed for the killing the king then ? when was it that you were first ingaged to be an instrument to take away the kings life ? mr. dugdale , two years ago i was spoke to about the plot , but i was not particularly assigned till the last summer , and then i was appointed to come to london in october . l. c. j. what said they then to you ? mr. dugdale , my lord stafford did offer me l . he told me i should have that for a reward at present ; and if things did go on , i should have a better reward when the thing was accomplished , but this was for my present incouragement . l. c. j. when were you to have the money ? mr. dugd. when i came to london , l. c. j. and why did not you come to london then . mr. dugd. i was to come to london and the plot was broke out and discovered first . mr. word , pray do you know of any letters about the death of sir edmundbury godfrey ? mr. dugdale , yes there was a letter came down to my lord astons , it was directed to mr. ewers and it contained in it , this very night sir edmundbury godfrey is dispatched ; those were the words of the letter . l. c. j. what night was that ? mr. dugdale , i have well remembred it since , and it was saturday , night , which was about the th of october , or thereabouts as i remember : it had those words , this v●ry night sir edmundbury godfrey is dispatched , and it went on with more things rela●ing to the plot which i cannot particularly now remember ; and i catched mr. 〈◊〉 at the reading of it , and said i to him , do you think this is the way to have the design succeed , if this do not overthow the plot i will be hang'd . not so said he , be patient and do not mistrust it , he was a man that was used to punish deb●uch'd person● , and it will rather reflect upon them then us . l. c. j. did that letter come to your hand ? mr. dugdale , yes it did , but it was writ to mr. ewers . mr. just . atk. what day did it come to you ? mr. dug . upon monday morning . mr. just , atkins , when was it writ ? mr. dugdale , it was writ the saturday night before . l. c. j. did mr. ewers shew it you ? or did you break open the letter ? mr. dugdale , mr. eweres shew it me for an incouragement , that one of our enemies was taken out of the way . mr. just . wyndbam , did you report it to any body ? mr. dugdale , yes to the parson of the town , and a relation of my lord astons . l. c. j. what was his name ? mr. dugd. one mr. sandwich and mr. philips , said i , do you not hear of a knight , a justice of westminster that is killed ? no said they ? we hear nothing of it , but it seems mr. sandwich went to dinner to and there he did report it . l. c. j. why did they look upon sir edmundbury godfrey as such an enemy to them ? mr. dugdale , they had intrusted him before , but he began to be strict with dr. oates , searching and prying into all the whole concern , as m● . ewers told me ( for i knew no more than he informed me of ) so they thought good to take him off . sir robert sawyer , gentlemen , will you ask him any questions . corker , i would have been glad to have heard what he said , but i could not hear the tenth part . sir robert sawyer , gentlemen , there is nothing that does particularly reflect upon you at the bar , but is only to prove the general design of the plot. sir ge●rge wakeman , 't is the worst made out that ever i think was tryal . mr. dugdale , if there be any more questions that your lordship or the court will be pleased to ask me , i will be sure to answer them . l. c. j. i will tell you the effect of what he says , and that is this ; he speaks in general , that there was a plot to bring in popery , and in order to that , the best way was to kill the king ; and to that purpose , there were several letters sent weekly into staffordshire , and very often directed by the cover to him , wherein were seven or eight several letters , as from ireland , and harcourt , and grove , to people that were in staffordshire ; that is to ewers , and l●wson , and vavasor , and many times they did write concerning the going on with this plot of killing the king , that they must use great secre●ie in it , and makes mention what officers they should have for an army to support that matter , when they had done ; they ingaged him particularly , first about two years ago to be one in it but more precisely in june or july last was twelvemonth , and he should have gone he says in october after up to london , in order to it ; and there he should have directions from ireland , how he should manage himself . and he gives you an accompt , that my lord stafford promised him he should have l . as part of his reward , and when the work was done , he should be better gratified ; and he says , he did intend to have gone up in october to this purpose , but the plot broke out , and he was prevented . sir rob. sawyer , pray mr. dugdale , you have been form●●ly examined : did you hear any thing of a massac●e ? or of any particular persons to be murdered , be●●des the king and the duke of monmouth ? mr. dugd. i do not remember any in particul●● ▪ but they two ; but in general , all protestants they intended to cut off . mr. ward . all protestants ? mr. dugd. yes . mr. just . atkins , pray sir , what did induce them to have so much confidence in you ? had you any such zeal for their religion ? mr. dugdale , yes , in so much that they thought i was a priest in the countrey . mr. just . atk●ns , had you been free in your purse ? did you give them any mony ▪ mr. dugdale , yes , i gave them for this , and for the praying for my soul the sum of pound , which was secured upon a d●●d of land ; and i promised them another pound when they made moan 〈◊〉 the want of money . and when mr. peters said , if they did not make more hast with their contributions , they should be at a great loss : and mr. gavan promised me , i should be canonized for a saint . l. c. j. when had you given the pound ? mr. dugdale , i had given it them in money , it was upon a deed of land , which was conveyed to mr. gerrard , & was to be sold for the raising of that mony . corker , mr. dugdale , you make mention of a certain letter sent from london here from mr. har●●urts , but not mr. harcourts letter , in which letter you say it was mentioned that the king should be killed , and that an army should be raised , and some such matters of grand defign . sir , don't you know from whom that letter came , i ask you ? mr. dugd. i cannot directly at present call to mind the persons name , i may by and by perhaps ▪ corker , then my lord , i appeal to the court , and beg the judgment of the court whether a letter of that vast concernment about killing the king , the destruction of the nation , and the raising of an army should be sent from a man that he himself does not , nor can tell his name , nor the place this letter came from . that a man should be so mad to send by the common post a letter of such vast concern , and yet neither the party to whom , nor the party from whom it came , be remembred . mr. dugd. i can give you satisfaction as to some letters i have received , and i can tell you in particular from whence they came . one came from paris to st. omers , and so from st. omers to ●ondon , and from thence by a special messenger to ti●all in staffordshire ; and my lord aston and mr. ewers read it one night in my sight in the parlor . corker , just now he said it was by a special messenger , and before he said the letters came by a common post . mr. dugd. i speak of another letter now , then those i spake of before . l. c. j. he did indeed say before , that there was a letter as you repeat it , that had the importance of killing the king , but he could not particularly charge himself with the person that writ it , but saith he , i can now remember another letter that was sent by a special messenger and he will tell you who that letter was writ by , and who it came from . from whom came it ? croker . that was only to correct a former lye. mr. dugd there was j. w. writ to it , and i suppose it was from sir john warner . l. c. j. where was it dated ? whence did it come ? mr. dugd. there was one from paris , it was first begun at paris where advice was first to be had , and assistance was promised how it should be carried ●n , and they thought it was the best way after they 〈◊〉 killed the king , for the papists to give the first alarm that it was those still king-killing persbyterians that had done that act , and that then the church of england men would be willinger to joyn with the papists to cut them off . lord ch. just . this was the substance of the letter . mr. dugdale . yes , this was the substance of the letter . and the letters from london said they thought it good advice , and there were several lords in england set their hands to it , acknowledging it as good advice : and in that very letter there was an army mentioned , that there should be an army ready to cut off those that should escape haveing their throats cut . lord ch. just . who brought that letter . mr. dugdale . i do not know who brought it from london to bos●obell , but there was a special messenger brought it thence to tixall , and his name was — carrington . lord. ch. just . you say there were several lords see their hands to it , what lords were they ? mr. dugdale . i have formerly mentioned them , there was my lord stafford , my lord bellasis an● my lord arundell . lord ch. just . to what purpose did they set their hands to it ? mr. dugdale that they approved it as good advice . lord ch. just . then gentlemen , this is that he says . here is a letter that was brought by one — corrington to my lord ast●ns , and the substance of th● letter was to justifie the killing of he ●●ng by the 〈◊〉 of an army , and that this letter came from s. omers , and that it had the letters j. w. subscribed to it , which was supposed to be sir iohn warner and that this letter was looked upon by some at london , and that they as approving of it , set there hands to it as good advice , and then sent it down into the countrey . corker . was the letter dated from st ▪ omers ? was st : omers writ in the inside , what say you . speak . mr. dugdale . there were letters i say , that came in that pacquet from st. omers , one came from paris , another from st. omers , and another from london . l. c. j. and all these in one cover mr. dugdale . yes . sir george wakeman , how could the same cover cover all those letters ? mr. dugdale all the letters were covered in grove's pacquet . l. c. j. here is the matter , he supposes there was a letter writ first at paris , and that is , then sent to st. omers ; and then there was a letter writ there by sir john warner or some of them , and sent to london , and perused in england by the lords , and all sent in one cover into stafford-shire . corker . your lordship makes sense of it but he made none but contradictions , and said he did not know whence it came , nor who writ it . you say sir , you were one of those to kill the king , pray when were you to kill the king. mr. dugdale . in october , i was to have done it when i came up . corker . mr. lord , here is a plot and a design driven on several ways to murder the king. dr. oates in his narrative , as i perceive , gives us a description of several contrivances that were made use of to commit this murther . he in all 〈◊〉 discription tells us only as i take it , of . ways of killing the king , the one by grove and pickering , another by the 〈…〉 relations , makes not any mention of a fourth design to kill the king , or of any other plot or design at london to kill the king ▪ but he saies if grove & pickring miscarried , it was to be done by the four ruffians , & they miscarrying , it was to be done by poyson , now comes he with a thing that never was thought of before , that oates never gives any relation of . lord ch. just . what then ? corker . he my lord , tells us that this was to be done in october , when all the other tthings that were to be done , were past ; and what , should they design to kill the king in october , when it was to be done before in july or august . l. c. j. look you the first part of your objection , wherein you say he names but three wayes of killing the king , what do you infer from that , because this gentleman sayes there was a fourth , there was not . dr oates told you as much as he knew of the matter but he does not undertake to give you an accompt of all the plot or plotters in this affair . it you make any reasonable objection against mr. dugdale's testimony i will allow it , but these inferences i must not . that this is a strange story of mr. dugdale's , because t is not part of oates discovery , is that a reasonable objection ? but then for the latter part , that dr. oates says the king was to have been killed in july or august , therefore what should they think of killing him in october ; he tells you that in june and july they did engage him in the general plot , and first then be instrumental in killing the king , but he was not to be gone , till october , to london to do it . corker . when the thing was done . mr. just wyndham . no , no , because the thing was not done , or because it might miscarry by others , therefore he was to come then . l. c. j. they could not tell when it would be done , or by what hand it would be done ; therefore they were engaging as many as they could , provided the thing were not done . marshall . amongst other things that seem to render his testimony suspected , there is one which is taken from the common practice of all men in cases of like nature , for where there is da●ger in matters of concernment , men use to be very circumspect who they choose , and make choice of as few as possible ? but now here is person after person conspiring without end , and letters to this person ▪ and to that person , and nothing is proved to be done upon it , so that here is the greatest confusion imaginable , an . of men , nay , ●lmost a whole nation are acquainted with it , when a few might serve the turn . sir robert sawyer , why do you say t is known to the whole nation , when it was so close a conspiracy ? l. c. j. north , you that are at the bar , we do not object to what you say as to the way of it , but as to the time that you deliver it in , it is the course that you deliver your objections when the kings evidence is done , indeed when the kings counsel have done what questions they have to ask of the witnesses , then you may ask them what questions you will , but for the observations that you would make by way of objection to the evidence , and as to their credit you should reserve to the last , when be kings evidence is done . prisoners . my lord , we desire we may be allowed pen , ink and paper . mr. recorder , let them have it . lord ch. justice , indeed there is one thing very considerable on your side , and t is fit there should be an account given of it . t is very strange that a thing of that nature should be writ so plain , i mean the killing of the king in a letter that should be sent by the common post , what say you to that ? mr. dugdale . mr. ewers did it for no other end in the world , but that they intended if it should be discovered all should be flung upon me , and i was sworn to deny it , and they were to go free . l. c. j. what were the words of the letter . mr. dugdale , in that of mr. whitebreads it was contained down right plainly , he should choose such at were hordy for the killing of the king. l. c. j. and how did that letter come ? mr . dugdale by the common post ? sir george wakeman . no man living can believe it . mr. j. pemberton , there was no mention of ewers on the out side , nor no name to it , was there ? mr. dugdale , no , none at all my lord. mr. j. pemberton . no name to the letters ? mr. dugdale , only the two first letters of their names ▪ marshall , would they in such cases , can any man think , be so mad as to venture their lives , and all for they knew not what ? would the lords , whose names he says were subscribed to one of the letters , engage their lives and fortunes in the signing of a letter , wherein both were so much endangered , and commit it to such an hazard ? rumley . would they set their hands to such a letter , as they could not be certain into whose hands it might come ? and he says he does not know who it came from . mr , j. pemberton , mr . dugdale , was that letter by a common post , that the lords set their hands too ? mr . dugdale , no , it was by a special messenger . l. c. j. look you gentlemen , the answer that he gives to your objection is this ; you say it is strange , and indeed it is so , that such a design shoul be writ so plain in english in a letter , but he says there was no body in danger by it , but himself , for there was no body could tell from whence it came , because only two letters of the name were subscribed ; and , says he , it was directed to me only , and so i might have suffered , but ewers name was not mentioned , to whom it was intended to go . rumley , yet he says , he does not certainly know who it came from . mr. recorder . gentlemen you have your proper time for that , if you will make any remarks . mr. j. pemberton . will you ask him any more questions ? as for your arguments you must not use them now . l. c. j. north , but they have desired pen , ink , and paper , is it given to them ? mr. recorder , you must allow the prisoners pen , ink , and paper , if they desire it . l. c. j. ay , all of them , if they would have it . ( which was done . ) l. c. j. mr . dugdale , this letter that came from whitebread , it came with others , did it not ? mr. dugdale , yes , my lord it did . l. c. j. the cover was directed to you , was it not ? mr. dugdale , yes my lord , it was . l. c. j. had the other letters particular directions to particular persons ? mr. dugdale , every letter was directed to me . l. c. j. what , besides the cover ? mr . dugdale , yes , besides the cover . l. c. j. who were you to communicate them to ? mr. dugdale . they had a particular mark that they were known by , there was always a black cross upon them , i was to give them to mr . ewers , and he was to communicate them to others concerened . l. c. j. what was upon the other letters ? mr. dugdale , i had no letters but what i delivered to ewers . l. c. j. was he the only man that they were delivered to ? mr. dugdale , yes , my lord. l. c. j. and he distributed them as he pleased , did he ? mr. dugdale , yes . l. c. j. had you more marks than one ? mr. dugdale , no , my lord , no more marks than one . l. c. j. so you were only agent between mr. ewers and them , and none else ? mr. j. windham , they were all directed to you , how did he know who they were to go to ? mr. dugdale , i was to deliver them to him , and he dispersed them to the several persons , and he rid constantly abroad about it . l. c. j. were there several marks to know who they were to ? mr. dugdale , my lord , he knew by conversing with them , their several hands , and so could tell by what was written , what was intended , and what the business was , and for whom . corker , there must have been several transactions , and a man must have received several letters before he knows anothers hand . m. j. pemberton , will you ask him any questions , you must not argue upon it yet . rumley , how many letters came to you pray from beyond sea ? mr. dugdale , an hundred i believe in two years time . rumley , from how many several persons ? methinks you should produce some of those letters . m. dugdale , there were letters from sir john warner very often i cannot remember all . rumley , methinks you might be more ready in your evidence , then upon every turn to say you can't remember . have you none of those letters ? mr. dugdale , i burnt those letters which i kept before i intended to discover the plot ; but in a multitude of l●tters , 't is hard to tell particulars , i tell you what i remember of them . corker , you make mention of killing the king , and raising an army , and these were specified in two letters . in those matters which concerned the raising of an army , were there only letters , no commissions sent for the raising of forc●s ? did you never see any of the officers ? did you never communicate with any of them ? l. c. j. did you see any commissions first ? mr. dugdale , no , i never did see any of them . l. c. j. did you ever talk with any that were intended to be officers ? mr. dugdale , yes , i have . l. c. j. name them . mr. dugdale , there was sir james symons , and mr. howard , i have talked with them ? l. c. j. with them two ? mr. dugdale , and with one captain adderley that is dead . corker , why there are three officers to wards the raising of several thousands of men . mr. j. pemb. look you , mr. corker , you must direct your self to the court , and propose your questions here . corker , mr. dugdale tells us , that for the promoting of this design , that he gave l . and with the same breath says , he was to receive l . methinks this is to do and undo . mr. j. dolben , pray keep this arguing of yours till the last . l. c. j. north , the court hath told you already this is not proper for you . 't is true , you must have liberty to ask questions , because there are some questions that else may be forgotten , and the opportunity will be lost , but when you have asked those questions , make your own observations upon them in private to your selves , and afterwards it will be time for you to argue upon it to the jury , when the kings council shall have done their evidence : but now to make these inferences , will do you little services , and can't be permitted : mr. dugd. my lord , i desire to answer it now ; it was my lord stafford that promised me the money , and i went presently to know of mr. ewers what it meant , because i had given my money before , and my lord stafford did not , i suppose , know any thing of it . l. c. j. how long was it before that you gave the money ? mr. dugd. it was two or three years before , at the beginning when the plot was first discovered to me for the introducing of their religion . mr. j. atkins , he was a great zealot , but my lord stafford did suppose the mony might quicken him . mr. dugd. it was for my incouragement , and i should have a greater reward after . corker , he received the money , i suppose , when he was in prison for debt , rather than for any thing else . l. c. j. north , you may observe that by and by . l. c. j. look you , this is what he hath said , it is all but in general , and he does not name any of you four : but here was a general contrivance , he says , to bring in popery ; i am afraid that is too true ; and as the best way to effect that , they resolved to kill the king ; and i am afraid that is too true too , for it was indeed the likeliest way . then stood up mr. prance . mr. ward , mr. prance , pray will you give the court an account only in general of what you know of any design that was at this time ? mr. prance , it was a fortnight or three weeks before micha●lmas , i went to one mr. irelands chamber in russel-street , where was mr. fenwick and mr. grove , and there they were discoursing of men that were to be raised for the settling of the roman catholick religion ; and i asked mr. fenwick , how that could be done ? and he said , very easily in a short time . then i asked him , what poor tradesmen should do ? and he said , i need not fear , for i should have church-work enough to make crucifixes , basons and candl●sticks . mr. j. atkins , you are a working goldsmith ? mr. prance , yes . th●n i asked , who should govern them ? and he said , my lord powis , my lord stafford , my lord arnndel , my lord bellasis , and my lord petre. two or three days after that , grove came to my shop to buy some spoons for a christning ; and then i did ask him , what office he was to have ? he said . he did not know , but he said , that my lord bellasis , my lord powis , and my lord petre , had commissions to govern the army . and after that , there was one mr. paston in dukestreet , i went to him to know how i could direct a letter ; and after a little time , we fell into discourse concerning the affairs of the times . he told me , the lords had given out commissions , one was to sir henry bennifield in norfolk , another was to mr. stoner in oxfordshire , and another was to mr. talbot of longford . he said that they had given commiss●ons for to raise an army . mr. ward , what was that army to do ? mr. prance , it was to settle the catholick religion . mr. ward , did you hear any thing mentioned of killing the king ? mr. prance , yes , i did . l. c. j. who told you this that you speak of about the commissions ? mr. prance , mr. paston , my lord , in duke-street . l. c. j. was he a priest ? mr. prance , no but he kept some in his house , and they said mass every morning . l. c. j. is he of any profession ? mr. prance , he was a counsellor , but doth not practice now , he hath an estate of ●r a year . l. c. j. now go on , and say what he told you . mr. prance , he said , there were commissions given out to sir henry bennyfield and one talbot of longford . l. c. j. when was it he told you this ? mr. prance , it was in august la●t . l. c. j. and did he say they had commissions sent to them ? mr. prance , yes , they had them in the country , where they were to raise their troops : i heard of more , but i only remembred those three . mr. ward , do you know one messenger ? mr. prance , yes ▪ mr. ward , what discouse had you with him ? mr. prance , my lords butler told me — l. c. j. who told you ? mr. prance , my lords butler . l. c. j. what lord ? mr. prance , my lord arundel . he waited then on one sheldon that was almoner to the dutchess of york . he told me , that mr . messenger was to kill the king , and he was to have a good reward for the same . soon after i was going over lincolns-inn-fields , and met with mr . messenger , and asked him , why he would kill the king ? he seemed to be surprized , and starting back , said , who told you that ? said i , your butler told me . oh , said he , we are quite off of that now : but then i was going away , and he called me back , and asked me , if i would go and drink with him ? no , said i , i cannot stay at this time . however , pray , said he , keep counsel for we are off of that now ▪ mr. ward , will you ask the witness any questions ? corker , yes , my lord ▪ those commissions you speak of , when were they sent ? in august ? mr. prance , no , i do not say so , but that mr. paston told me of them in august . i cannot tell the day . sir rob. sawyer , if you observe it , gentlemen , he only tells you what some of the priests , and persons of your religion , acquainted him with ; not any thing particularly against you . mr. ward . then next we call mr. jennison . ( who stood up . ) sir ro. sawyer . mr. jennison pray give the court an account of what you know of any design in hand , or what discourse you had with any person about such a thing . mr. jennison . sir in the month of june . i was at mr . ireland's chamber . sir ro. sawyer . where , sir ? mr. jennison . in russel-street next the white-hart . and there arose a discourse about religion , and some hopes there were , he said , that the romish religion , should be publickly owned again in england ; & when i came in , i remember mr . ireland did say , there was only one in the way , that stopp'd the gap , and hindered the catholick religion from flourishing in england again ; and said , it was an easie matter to poyson the king. lord ch. just . who was by pray when he said so ? mr. jennison . his sister was by . l. c. j. name her , sir. mr. jennison . mrs. anne ireland . l. c. j. who else ? mr. jennison . none else . l. c. j. then there was only you , and ireland and his sister . and you say , that they were discoursing concerning their hopes of bringing in religion and ireland said , there was but one in the way , and that it was not an hard matter to poyson the king. mr. jennison . yes my lord ; and so i not knowing any thing at all of the p●ot , or imagining ●he design , did answer , perhaps it may be done , but it would be a very horrid thing if it should ▪ then mrs ireland did rebuke her brother , and asked him , why he talk'd so ? and then he answered with some salvo or other , that he did not think it ought to be done . then i pursued the discourse about religion , and told him , i thought it would never come in by violence , and that it was a great scandal to religion for the professors of it to propagate and promote it by any such way : and then i put him in mind of the gunpowder treason . of the ●ll succese it had , and the great injury it did to the cause ▪ he answered , that was only a state-trick , and an invention of my lord cecil's . l. c. j. ay , they do say so , i know ; were you a papist then ? mr. jennison . yes , my lord , i was . l. c. j. are you one still ? mr. jennison . no , my lord. mr. ward . mr. jennison , were you with him again at any time ? and what time was it that you met him , as you remember ? mr. jennison , the of august after i came from windsor . l. c. j. vvhere did you see him . mr. jennison , at his own chamber in russel street . l. c. j. how do you so precisely remember the day , that it was the th of august ? mr. jennison , i remember it by this , the beginning of august i went to tunbridge with mr . tonstall and another gentleman ▪ and there i staid till the th , when i came to town , and staied two or three days , and on saturday in the afternoon i went to windsor to take my leave of mr. b●wes , being to go down into the north , & the c●●●st●idal sunday , and came back again on munday morning , and came to town about twelve a clock the th day , as i have considered it since it was , and a munday . l. c. j. and then you went to irelands c●ambe● , did you ? mr. jennison , yes , then i went to mr . irelands chamber . l. c. j. by the o●th you have taken , because it is very material not to your cause , but it shews how fit it is that the world should know with what truth or falshood these men dare die , and this man did in particular . it was affirmed by him to the very last of his breath , that he was never here in london after the third of august , till some time in september , but was all the while in staffordshire ; and they did at the last tryal produce sir iohn southcot , and his coach-man , and his lady , and i know not how many other witnesses to give an account where he was from the third of august , all along till the middle of september ; and they testified that they kept days together in his company ; and then they produced people in cheshire to say , that they saw him there . therefore i do now ask you upon your oath , are you sure that you saw ireland here the th of august . mr. jennison , yes , my lord. l. c. j. do you swear that positively ? mr. jennison , yes , my lord , i do ▪ sir robert sawyer . he will till you the discourse he had with him then . mr. jennison . after that i came to mr. ireland's chamber , i understood he was newly come out of stafford shire . and he pull'd off his boots while i was there upon the frame of a table , or else upon a jack , i cannot positively tell which , but i believe it was on the frame of a table , i asked him , how all our friends did in stafford-shire ? he told me , very well , and that they would be glad to see me there . then he asked me , whence i came , and where i had been ? i told him , i had been at windsor . he asked me , what news ? how the court diverted themselves ? i told him , i understood his majesty took great delight in hawking , and fishing , and chiefly in fishing , and used to go out very early in the morning , accompanied only with three or four persons of quality . lord ch. just . did he ask you what company he had ? or did you tell him of your own accord ? mr. jennison ▪ no , i think i told him of my own accord , that the king went out very early , and had but little company with him . lord , said he , i wonder the king should go so thinly guarded , he were easily taken off , i wonder he should go so open . said i , god forbid , sure no body would be so wicked ; and then he qualified it by some expression ; so that at that time i made no i 'l reflection upon it , till after the plot br●ak out , and then discoursing of it to my father and my sisters , i said i wish it be not true , pray god there be nothing in this plot , because of the discourse that happened between mr . ireland and me . 't is very suspitious , said i. sir robert sawyer . at that time had you any discourse whence he came , and about his wea●iness ? mr. jennison . he said , he came out of stafford●shire , and came post : i understood he came very early that morning ▪ i told him that schollars such as he , would rather choose to come upon an ambling horse , and that i was weary my self . sir robert sawyer . were you very well acquainted with mr. ireland that sufferd ? mr. jennison . yes , very well . sir robert sawyer . are you sure he was in london the nineteenth of august . mr. jennison . yes , and i talked with him then . lord ch. just . how long had you known him before ? mr. jennison . a year and half . sir robert sawyer ▪ pray when did you go out of london ▪ to the north ? what time did you go away ? mr. jennison . i went the fourth of september , as the coach booke will make it appear . l. c. j. the evidence they gave was , that he did not come to town till the th . of september , but he was gone the th it seems to the north , and that is before that time . well , will you ask him any questions ? corker , mr. ireland had been in staffordshire ? had not he ? for the th you say he came to town , i do not well remember , but the design of the ruffians of killing the king , about which oates speaks , was before the th at the consult of which ireland was so grand an instrument . l. c. j. that was in may , was it not ? corker , no , that of the ruffians was in august , as he says . sir rob. sawyer , will you ask him any questions ? look upon him ; you see how creditable a witness he is . corker , did you , pray sir , leave your religion , and make this discovery before the pretended plot came out ? when did you leave your religion ? mr. jennison , about three months ago . l. c. j. he told you that as soon as the plot broke out , said he , i told my sisters and my father of it , and said , i pray god this plot have not more in it than we are aware of , for i had some discourse with mr. ireland , which i took no notice of then , because he qualified it at that time , and said it was not lawful , and i did make nothing of it then , but now it runs much in my mind . corker , this he says , but this man did not leave his religion , to make this discovery till it appeared advantageous to him so to do . mr. recorder , it is an observation you make , but it had been well if you , and all of that perswasion would have left it when you saw what it led to . l. c. j. i know not what advantage you mean , nor do i see any colour you have to say so , for they say this gentlemans father is one of a a year , and he is his eldestson ? corker , are you your fathers eldest son ? mr. recorder , there is an elder brother , my lord , but he is a priest . l. c. j. is your elder brother a priest ? mr. jennison , my lord , i don't know that , he is in newgate about it . l. c. j. is it reported that he is so ? mr. jennison , my lord i don't know it of my own knowledge . corker , he does not know it , and therefore he is not the heir , and therefore the advantage of his estate is not such , but that he might well lay hold of this discovery ▪ sir r●b . sawyer , i hope by and by gentlemen , you will make a better defence than this . mr. j. pemb. what you say should be by way of question proposed to the court. mr. record . but you take it upon your oath that you saw ireland the th of august ? was that after you met with mr. ●owes ? mr. jennison , i did not meet with mr. bowes . mr. record . how long after you had left him was it ? mr. jennis . i did not see him there , i went to see him ▪ but he was not there . l. c. j. but he says precisely that the th of august he went to mr. irelands chamber , where he saw him pluck off his boots and talking , as if he had come out of staffordshire post , so that indeed he was in staffordshire , but not all the time he said he was . mr. ward , then pray call mr. bowes . ( who was sw●n ) sir rob , sawyer , pray sir will you give the court an account , when you saw this gentleman , and about what time he went out of town . mr. bowes , my lord , i saw him in august , the beginning , or about the middle of august , in tunbridge ▪ before my coming to town . sir robert sawyer , pray when did he leave this town ? when did he go out of town ? mr. bowes , i cannot point blank tell the time , but i could recollect my self , i believe in a little time . sir rob. sawyer , do you know of his going to windsor ? mr. bowes , i did not see him there , but he writ a letter to me that he went thither to meet me there , but i saw him not till he came to town again . l. c. j. who is 't you speak of ? mr. bowes , mr ▪ jennison . sir roh . sawyer , what did he write you in that letter ? mr. bowes , sir the letter is here in court , i don't remember the particulars . sir rob. sawyer , it is here in court ? mr. bowes , yes , it is i think . mr. recorder , shew it him , for it may refresh his memory about the time . ( which was done . ) l. c. j. is that the letter ? mr. bowes , this is the letter . sir rob. sawyer , pray when did you receive it ? mr. bowes , it was in december before christmas , here is a gentleman that then saw it . sir rob. saw. pray sir will you please to look upon it , and then acquaint the court with some of the contents . l. c. j. n●●th , you are sure , mr ▪ bowes , that mr. jennison was in town in august ▪ mr. bowes , he came then from tunbridge . l. c. j. that is all , we can make no more of it : did he meet you at windsor ? mr. b●wes , no my lord , i was gone to windsor before , and when he came i was gone out of the town . l. c. j. what time went you to windsor ? mr. bowes , the twelfth or thirteenth of august ; it was on a monday or a tuesday after i came from tunbridge . sir rob. sawyer , then we shall call one witness more , and we shall prove by him ▪ that is one mr. burnet , that the th of august he did meet mr. jennison going to winddsor . pray call mr. burnet . ( who was sworn . ) l. c. j. pray sir do you know mr ▪ jennison ? mr. burnet , i met him as i was coming from windsor , that day dotchets horse race was . i. c. j. what day was that ? mr. burnet , i cannot exactly remember the day , l. c. j. what month was it ? mr. burnet , in august . i. c. j. was it the middle of august , or the latter end ? mr. burnet , it was about the middle of august . ● . c. j. this does not so ●uch relate to you , but it is to give satisfaction to all the world , that what was asserted by mr ireland all along , and at his death , and seems to be justified by so many witnesses as were produced on that account , to prove that he was not here in august , is utterly ●●true ; for this gentleman mr. jennison swears he saw him here in town the th of august , and to prove that mr. jennison was here , here is mr. bowes and this other gentleman that come to fortifie his testimony , who swears precisely , tha● the th of august he was at mr. irelands chamber , where he saw him pluck off his boots , and talk'd as if he came post then from staffordshire . corker , i suppose it will not be permitted us to make any argument upon this neither as yet . l. c. j. no , no. sir rob. sawyer , but now gentlemen it will behove you to take notes , for we shall come home to you , and we begin with dr. oates . ( who stood up . ) mr. ward , pray sir , will you tell your whole knowledge of this matter , and apply your self as near as you can to every one of the prisoners at the bar. dr. oates , my lord , in the month of july mr. ashby came to town sick , and being sick , and one of the society , the prisoner at the bar , sir george wakeman was his physician , and being his physician he did write him some instructions how he should order himself before he went , and at the bath ; that he should in the first place take a pint of milk in the morning , and a pint of milk at night , and should drink no morning draughts but milk , and that he should have one hundred stroaks at the bath at the pump , i do not so well understand what that means , but i suppose the court doth , but ▪ these were the words of the instructions . in this letter sir george wakeman did write , that the queen would assist him to poyson the king , and this letter was brought by a messenger to master ashby . within a day or two after i saw mr. ashby and sir george wakeman the prisoner at the bar ( he was so called ) but i had no acquaintance with him , but just the sight of him ) i saw him sit in a writing posture , i saw him lay by his pen , rise up and go away , and the same hand that he left behind him in a paper where the ink was not dry , was the same hand that writ the letter to mr . ashby . and ▪ my lord , in that time of converse while he was writing , this mr . ashhy did give him some instructions concerning the commission he had received of being physician to the army . now ▪ my lord , in some few days after there came a gentleman for some of the fathers from wild● house , that had the title either of sir richard or sir robert , but he was a middle-statured man , and a brisk man , about the age of four of five and forty , and be came with commands from the queen for the fathers to wait upon her at somerset house and i did wait upon these fathers , there was father har●ourt , father kaines , father longworth and father fenwick , and another father , i cannot remember his name . and may it please your lordship , we did attend at somerset - house , and the fathers went in to the queen into a chamber where she was , and i waited in an anti-chamber , and i did hear a woman● voice which did say , that she would assist them in the propagation of the catholick religion with her estate , and that she would not endure these violations of her bed any longer , and that she would assist sir geo. wakeman in the poisoning of the king. now , my lord , when they came out , i desired that i might see the queen , and so when i came in i had , as i believe , from her a gracious smile . now if it please your lordship , while that i was within i heard the same voice speak thus to father harcourt , and asked him , whether he had received the last l . and it was the same tongue , as l can possibly guess , the same voice which i heard when i was without , and i saw no other woman there but the ●ueen , and there were these fathers . my lord in that very month of july sir geo. wakeman was proposed ● l . in the presence of father harcourt , and father fenwick i think was there , and father ireland . l. c. j. were you there ? dr. oates i was there . l. c. j. was this proposal made to sir george wakeman after this discourse you heard at somerset - house ? dr. oates , my lord , i will not be positive whether it was before or after , but it was near that time , this l . he did refuse . l. c. j. but you say , you heard the l . was proffered him ; pray who did propose it to him ? dr. oates , ashby , was to do it . l. c. j. but who did it ? dr. oates it was ashby in the name of the provincial , from whom he had received instructions so to do . l. c. j. but you say in your hearing l . was offered him by ashby . dr. oates , yes , my lord , l. c. j. what said he ? dr. oates , he refused it . l. c. j. what words did he use ? dr. oates , he said it was too little . l. c. j. what was the l . to be given for ? dr. oates , to poison the king. l. c. j. were those the words ? dr. oates , yes , they were . l. c. j. how did the discourse begin ? dr. oates i will tell your lordship how : there was a meeting of the fathers for this very purpose to treat with sir george wakeman before ashby went to the bath , & there being a meeting they did break this business to him ; but what preamble they made to it i cannot remember . my lord , as for the other prisoners at the bar , mr. corker — l. c. j. but before you go from this matter , you say you know not how they brought it in , but they brought it in some way , he was to meet with them to that purpose , and there ashby did tell him he should have l. what answer made he to it ? dr. oates , he said it was too little for so great a work . l. c. j. is that all ? dr. oates that is all that i remember . l. c. j. did he say what he would have ? dr. oates , i can't remember that , but he said that was too little . lord ch. j. did he say he would have five more , or any other sum ? dr. oates , no , that was not then mentioned ; but there were letters presently dispatched to whitebread to tell him , that sir george wakeman had refused the l . and then this same whitebread did order the fathers in london to propose five more , which proposal was made to sir george wakeman . this i speak but by hear say , and it was accepted , and l . of it received in part , and sir george wakeman's name was subscribed to the entry-book . l. c. j. did you see his name subscribed ? dr. oates , yes , my lord , i did . l. c. j. where ? dr. oates , to the entry-book . l. c. j. where was that book kept ? dr. oates , it was the book that the jesuits kept : it was then in our custody . l. c. j. whose custody ? dr. oates , the father custody : lord ch. just . whos 's particularly ? and at whose chamber was it kept ? dr. oates , at wild-house . sir ro. sowyer . do you know who was the keeper of it ? dr. oates . i cannot positively say that , i suppose the secretary and the fathers . sir ro. sawyer . and what did you see writ in that book ? dr. oates . that such a day ( which day i cannot remember ) but such a day in august so much was proposed to sir g. w. and he accepted it , and received it : those were the words , or to that purpose . lord ch. just . were those the words writ in the book ? dr. oates , yes , or to that purpose . lord ch. just . do you know whose hand writ that ? dr. oates , yes , my lord , i can tell whose hand , it was father harcourt writ those words ▪ l. ch. just . sir george wakeman's hand was not to it , was it ? dr. oates , yes , it was just underneath : received so much money of father harcourt by the order of edward coleman : now there was the goldsmiths name to it , i cannot undertake to say who it was , but in my conscience i think it was st●ley . lord ch. justice . how much was the money ? dr. oates five thousand pounds . l. c. j. was sir george wakeman's hand subscribed to that receipt ? dr. oates , yes it was . l. c. j. once more ; what were the words in the book ? dr. oates , memorandum . such a day l . was proposed to sir george wakeman which he accepted . i tell you the purport , and the words as near as i can . l. c. j. was it said for what the money was proposed ? dr. oates , i will not be positive in that , i suppose it was . lord ch. just . but you say it was written such a day l . was proposed to sir george wakeman . and by him accepted ? dr. oates , yes , my lord , and then underneath it the receipt was written , and this receipt was written thus , received in part of this l . l . of father harcourt by order of ed : coleman . george wakeman . l. c. j. was the receipt , which is said such a day , the same day that the other ? dr. oates , there was no other date to it . l. c. j. had the first a date to it ? dr. oates , yes , my lord , it had . l. c. j. what day was it ? dr. oates , it was in august . corker , what day in august ? dr. oates i cannot tell . corker , about what time in august ? dr. oates , it might be betwixt the beginning and the middle . l. c. j. but we will suppose for the present question a ●ay ; suppose it was written the th of august , there was proposed ● l to sir g. w. and by him accepted , & then comes afterwards this note , received then l in part of this l with his name to it . was there any other date to that ? dr. oates , no , that was set down as the same day , received l in part by the order of edward col man. l. c. j. and then sir george wakeman's name was set to it at length , was it ? dr. oates , yes , it was . sir george wakeman , where was that received ? in whose chamber ? dr. oates , i cannot say that . l. c. j. was there any place mentioned in the note where it should be received ? dr. oates , no , my lord ; i was then sick of the stone , and was not at the payment of the money . l. c. j. but did the note mention any name ? received of any body ? dr. oates . it was by order of mr. edward coleman , l in part of this l sir george wakeman , does he say this was in the entry book ? dr. oates , yes , it was . sir g. wakeman , where was that kept ? dr. oates , sometimes at wild house , sometimes mr. langhorn had he custody of it . sir g. wakeman . i humbly beg of the court that mr . staley may be sent for . l. c. j. he only sayes he believes mr : staley paid it . sir g. wakeman , does he me●tion no place where it was received ? l. c. j. no. sir g. wakeman , no● no person it was paid to ? l. c. j. no , he says , a●l i saw is this , that in the entry book someimes kept at wild-house , sometime by mr. langhorn , the●e was w●●tten , this day ( which was some day in august ) proposed to sir g. w. l , and by him accepted , and under that a line or two more which contained , then received , l by order of edward coleman , being part of this l . george wakeman . sir george wakeman , will your lordship please to give me leave to speak something now , i may forget it hereafter . mr. ward , we have not done yet . mr. just . pemberton . sir george , they have not yet done with this witness for the king. l. c. j. north , take a memorandum of it in your paper . sir robert sawyer , pray what do you know more of the prisoner at the bar , sir g●orge wakeman ? dr. oates , this is all i can recollect at present . s●r r. sawyer , do you know any thing of any commission that he had ? dr. oates . i did urge that he received a commission to be physician-general of the army . l. c. j. did you see that commission ? dr. oates . yes , i saw it in sir george wakeman's hands . lord ch. just . had you seen it before ? dr. oates , yes , i had . l. c. j. where did you see it in his hand ? dr. oates , when he was writing at mr. ashbys . l. c. j. what note was that he left behind him there ? dr. oates , it was an apothecaries bill , as i suppose . l. c. j. what month was it that you saw the commission ? dr. oates . it was in july , mr. ward , what do you know of his being privy to the consult in april ? dr. oates . i cannot speak any thing to that . lord ch. just . did he write his name to that bill ? dr. oates . i cannot say that ▪ my lord , it was finished , but i cannot be positive about the name : l , c. j. but you say , that you believe that the name of goerge wakeman . was the same hand wi●h that you saw when he writ the apothecaries bill ? dr. oates , it was as near as i can guess the same with that letter that was writ to ashby ▪ wherein he does direct him to take a pint of milk in the morning , and a pint of milk 〈◊〉 the evening and that he should have . stroaks at the bath : and this hand was the sa●e with that of the apot●ecaries bill . l. c. j. you never saw sir george-wakeman write in you life , did you ? dr. oates , i saw him in a writing posture , and i saw him lay by the pen. l. c. j. but you did not see him write ? dr oates . no my lord , but the gentleman that sat by him was lame of both his hands , and c●uld not write : and i saw him lay by the pen , and when he was gone away the ink was not day . lord ch. just . you speak of that only to shew the likeness of the hand . sir george wakeman . have you not said that you do not know my hand ? dr. oates . i have told the court be●o●e how far i have known your hand . i saw a letter that i s●y was signed and subcribed george wakeman , and that was the same hand that was to the receipt , and to the apothecaries bi●l . sir george vvakeman . have you not said positive●y that you do not know it , and is not that matter on record ? d● oates , i did see a le●●er subscribed george wakeman , 't is a fine gentile hand , and after i saw him in a writing postu●● , i saw him say by the pen , the ink and paper was wet ; i did not indeed see him write , but there was no body in the room that could write , or in a writing posture but h● , for the other gentleman was lame of both hands . sir george wakeman . but i pray give a positive answer to what i ask you ; have you not said you do not know my hand ? dr. oates , i do not remember i have said so . mr. just . pemberton , but he sayes now he believes that the hand that writ the letter to ashby and the bill that he saw green , when no body was by that could write but you , were the same . sir george wakeman , have not you said before the king and council , that you never saw me in all your life , and that you did not know me ? dr. oates , my lord , you may be pleased to know , when i saw sir g , wakeman at the council , i had been up two nights together , and the king was willing once to excuse me from staying any further examination , and being so ill and indisposed for want of rest , in respect both of my intellectuals , and every thing else , i might not charge him so home , but now i have a proper light whereby i may see a mans face , i can say more to him . sir g. wakeman , this is just coleman's case , the light was in your e●es . dr. oates . this is the same gentleman : i desire he may propose his questions to the court. l. c. j. this is his question , whether you did say before the king & council you did not know sir george wakeman ? dr. oates . i do not remember whether i did or did not . i saw one called sir george wakeman , and this is that man ; but i will not say this was the man that was before the council when i was there . mr. just . p●mberton , did you see the commission in this mans hand ? dr. oates , yes , i did . l. c. j. did you know this gentleman before he wa● at the council ? dr. oater i saw this gentleman with mr. ashby , and he can't deny it . sir g. wakeman can 't deny it ! yes i hope you will be able to prove it , you said you never saw me in your life before you saw ●e at the counc●● . l. c. j. did you ever see him more than once ? dr. oates . yes , twice in mr. ashby's chamber . l. c. j. what two several dayes ? dr. oates yes , two several dayes . mr. just . pemberton . where was it that you saw him when the writing you say was green that he left bhind him ? dr. oates . it was at mr. ashby's chamber . l. c. j. you never saw him before that , did you ? dr. oates . no. ] l. c. j. how often after ? dr. oates . but once after that . l. c. j. was that at the council ? dr. oates , no. l. c. j. look you what he sayes , he never saw you but twice before he saw you a● the council . dr. oates . i saw you when the l was proposed to you . sir g. vvakeman . where was that ? dr. oates . at wild-house . sir george vvakeman . did mr . ashby lie there . dr. oates . he did lye there , because the provincial was beyond sea , and he came up to london in order to go to the bath . sir george vvakeman . what day was that proposal made to me ? dr. oates . it was before mr. ashby went to the bath . sir g. wakeman , in what month ? dr. oates . in the month of july . sir g. wakeman . by whom ? by mr. ashby ? dr , oates , yes . sir g. vvakeman . in the presence of whom ? dr. oates . father harcourt , father ireland , and father fenwick . sir g. vvakeman . you will be sure to name those that can be neither witnesses for me nor against me . lord ch. just . who can help that ? dr. oates . i reckon up such as you did keep company with . l. c. j. do you know when mr . ashby went to the bath ? dr. oates . the latter end of july or beginning of august , as i remember . and this was before he went , he stayed but fourteen or sixteen days , as i remember , in town . l c. j he says he saw you but twice , once when you writ that note , and the second time when the proposal was made to you . sir g. wakeman , and you knew all these things at that time when i was examined before the king and council , turn this way and answer me . dr. oat●s . i am not bound to answer that question . l. c. j. but you must answer his questions if they be lawful . sir g. wakeman , i say i ask him , whether he knew all these things before that time i was examined before the king and council . lord ch. just . that must needs be , for all these things were done before . sir g. wakeman , then i ask him this question , why did you say before the king & cou●ci● , that you knew nothing of me but concerning one letter that was writ from mr. ashby to mr . fenwick ? shall prove this upon you ; but , my lord , let me observe this , can any one believe that if such evidence had been given in to the king and council against me as he now speaks of , that i should not have been immediately taken into custody . but that i should have my liberty so long as i had ? l. c. j. i will tell you , sir george , you will do very well and properly to call up your witnesses by and by when you com to make your defence , and to prove what he said at the council-table . pray dr oates , what was the reason you did not give the same evidence then you do now ? dr. oates , i c●n by and by give an answer to it , when it is proved by him what i did say . ●s to 〈◊〉 corke● i say this , he had a patent from the see of rome to be bishop of london ; and mr. corker was privy and consented to a proposal that was made by langhorn to the benedictine monks , whereof he is one . and these benedictine monks did contribute l. to the society of the jesuits in order to the carrying on of this design . and mr corker , though he did deny before some justices of the peace , that he did go out of the kingdom , yet he did go over to lampspring in germany , and staid there some short time , and he did write a letter ; but whether it was dated from lampspring in germany or no i cannot tell , because there was only the date of the month , but not of the place from whence it came , but the latter end of august it was , a●d therein he wrote , that he did consent to the proposal for the raising of the said l. for he is president of the benedictine monk● , and therefore it was necessary that he should give the suffrage , and he had been with ●ather l● chese and the english monks in paris , and had given an account what prospect of affairs he had in england , and how the design went on . l. c. j. was this in a letter ? dr. oates . yes , it was . l. c. j. to whom was that letter directed ? dr. oats , it was directed either to father h●●cheot , or to father howard then in . london . l. c. j. you saw the letter ? dr. oates . yes , i saw the letter . l. c. j. were you acquainted with his hand-writing ? dr. oates , i will shew you how far i might be acquainted with his hand : my lord , this gentleman , as i think , went away in july , as near as i can remember , i won't be positive in the time he went over , but in the month of june i saw this gentleman with mr . fenwick , and he had given him an account either of some friend or kinsman of his at st. omers ▪ that had not his pension paid , and mr . corker did give a note under his hand to mr . fenwick where to take up so much money , and the money was to be received of mr . langhorn . l. c. j. how much was that money ? dr. oates , it was about 〈◊〉 l. and he subscribed his name to it , james corkers for that is his name , though he is indicted i know not how by the name of anthony : and i have a summons to give evidence against anthony corker . lord chief just . he is indicted by the name of james . dr. oates . and then i saw his name to an examination that was taken by sir charles harbord , and some other justices that were of the house of commons that took the examination of this corker , and it was the very same hand he usually writ , only it was not so fair , nor so well in his examination . this is that i say against mr. corker . sir rob. sawyer , shew him that hand there : pray , sir , look , upon it . ( then a paper was shewn to him . ) dr. oates . this is the same hand . corker , is that a copy of my examination before the justices ? l. c. j. it is the original . corker , i am glad it is there . l. c. j. shew it the prisoner . dr. oats , mr. corker did use to bestow the queens charity — l. c. j. is that your hand ? corker , yes , my lord. l. c. j. shew him the other . corker , these are both my hand as far as i can see . dr. oats , that note he gave to fenwick for the receiving this money was the same hand with this , and so was the letter that came , as we suppose , from lampspring in germany ; but i cannot say it did so , wherein he did give consent to the raising and giving this l. for the carrying on of the design . sir rob. sawyer , what was that you had more recollected ? dr. oats , he did dispose of the queens charity ( as it was so called ) but mr . corker did say it was to carry on the design ; and this he did say in the month of june , when he was with mr . fenwick . now what he meant by that design , i leave to the ju●y to judge , only some parcels he had distributed two or three shillings to some , and forty shillings to another , to some more , to others less : but a great part of it he did use for the carrying on of this design , and he said the queen had given him orde●s so to do . sir rob ▪ sawyer , what do you know of his being privy to the consult of the th of april ? dr. oats , he did know of it , and i will tell your lordship how i know he knew of it . he did except against pickering being chosen . l. c. j. to do what ? dr. oats , to do that wicked thing to kill the king , for said he , pickering is commonly attendant upon the altar , and he thought it not so convenient that he should be employed about that business , because he might miss an opportunity by being ▪ at high mas , whereas another , a lay-man migh● do it . sir rob. sawyer , were you present when the exception was made ? dr. oats , yes , it was when the order was given about the money to ●enwick ▪ l. c. j. at whose house was it ? dr. oates , at the benedictine convent in the savoy . sir rob. sawyer , was it expressed at that time what pickering was to do ? dr. oats , his being privy to the consult in april , i had it only from his own mo●th , for he wondered that the jesuits should employ pickering in that business , when they might have a lay-man who was more fit ; he being a religious man and attending upon the altar , it was not so convenient . l. c. j. where was that l. to be raised ? dr. oates , out of the benedictinct estates . l. c. j. was he their president ? dr. oates , yes , he was . mr. just . elly● dr. oates , was he against the thing , the doing of it at all , or against pickerings doing of it only ? dr. oates , he was only against pickerings doing of it . ▪ he would have had a lay-man employed in it . mr. just . pemberton , that is plain , for he did give consent that the l. should be raised for the carrying on the whole design . sir rob. sawyer , do you know any thing besides that letter you have mentioned , which he writ , to give his consent ? dr. oates , nothing , b●t that because he had given his consent the mony was paid . l. c. j. do you know it was afterward ; paid ? dr. oates , i believe that the money was paid , for our fathers said that they had received it . mr. recorder , what say you to the rest of the prisoners ? dr. oates , mr. marshal i do charge with the same , that is , that he was act●ally present at the benedictine convent when the l. was agreed to be cont●ibuted , but it was not to be paid till they had an answer from mr. corker . sir. rob. sawyer , that letter you speak of was an answer to it i suppose ? dr. oates , yes my lord , it was so . sir rob. sawyer , what do you know of the consult , was he privy to that ? dr. oates , i will not be positive as to mr . marshals being privy to the consult , i know that he was privy to pickerings undertaking to kill the king. sir rob. sawyer , how do you know that ? dr. oates , because he was of corkers opinion that they had better take a lay-man . mr. recorder , what say you to rumley ? dr. oats , he is a benedictine monk , or at least-wise a lay-brother . and he was privy to this consult in which the l. was agreed to be paid and given , and i do judge he did consent to it , for he did pray god that it might have good success , and that the catholick cause might once again flourish in england . l. c. j. north , he was there then , was he not ? dr. oates , yes he was there , but only as a servant , a lay-brother of that order . l. c. j north , why , is he professed ? dr. oats , yes , i think he is . l. c. j. north , what time was this , mr. oats ? dr. oats , in august . l. c. j. north , was it the former part of august ? dr. oates , i cannot be positive , but i think it was . sir rob. sawyer , can you say any thing more against the rest of the prisoners ? dr. oates , i do not recollect any thing more at present , mr. ward , now gentlemen , if you please to ask him any questions you may . rumley , were you there present ? dr. oates , yes , i was . rumley , was it in the month of august ? dr. oates , yes , it was . sir rob. sawyer , will any of you ask him any more questions ? corker , he says i went in june to lampspring , now i would ask mr. oates where lampspring is ? dr. oates , we suppose it to be in germany . corker , 't is almost at the furthest end of westphalia , and he says that being there , i had o●●●ourse with le che●se and the english monks at paris about this design , i would ●ain make sense of this if i could . dr. oates , to satisfie mr. corker , i cannot say that he went to lampspring , but only as he said himself , and they used to say they go to one place when they go to another : as ireland said he went to st omers , when he went into staff●rdshire . corker , where and when did i give my consent to the design about murthering of the king , for you named the th of april . dr. oates , this is that i say to the court , that the privity that mr. corker , had of the consult of the th of april was that i had out of his own mouth , in which he did declare , that he did think the jesuits had not done well to make choice of one of their order to do that business since he was to attend upon the altar , but it would have been well if they had made choice of some other lay-man to match grove . corker , you tell me i had a patent to be bishop of london . dr. oates , i saw it in your own hand . corker , who gave me that patent ? dr. oates , i did not enquire into that ▪ cor. did you hear me say , i accepted of it , and should be bishop of london . dr. oates , i heard you say this , you hoped it would not be long e're you should exercise your episcopal function . ( at which the people laughed . ) dr. oates , i now recollect something more . i remember mr. marshal was present when father hitchcot and father howard and conyers the benedictine mo●k , were there present about the laying of a wager , whether or no the king should eat any more christmas pies , and this benedictine monk conyers did la● he should not , and another gentleman lay'd that he would , and this gentleman mashal did go halves with conyers that he would not . marshal , i desire you would tell my lords the judges how long you have known me , and where you have seen me ? dr. oates , i have seen this gentleman several times , but had never any familiarity with him , but i have seen him ●fficiate at the altar . marshall , how long have you known me . dr. oats , first and last two years ▪ but the first time that i knew you to hear you speak , was when father hitchcot and the rest were there . marshall , he says , he hath known me this two years , and yet never spake to me . dr. oats , i knew him by sight . marshall , he looked upon me as a priest it seems , he knew me to be engaged in this busine● as he says , i wonder he should never converse with me . dr. oats , there are a great many that i know by sight , whom i never did converse with . l. c. j. what do you infer from that ? it may be you know some of the ben●h by sight that you never spake to before nor they to you . marshall , what day of the month was this consult ? dr. o●t● , it was in august . marsh●ll , but what day of august ? dr. oates , 't is a great priviledge that i tell you the month . it was between the first and the middle of august . l. c. j. he tells you it was the former part , but it lies in his breast whether he will or no to tell you exact the day . marshall , my lord , 't is impossible to make a defence , if circumstances of time and place be not mentioned . l. c. j. 't is fit he should answer if he can tell the time , but if he cannot we can't help it . marshall , but if he does not name the very day he may name the place . l. c. j. he does name the place , it was at the benedictine convent . marshall , why can't he as well remember the day ? dr. oats , if they will tell me when the feast of the assumption is , which is a feast of their making , then i will give them a pretty near account when it was . marshall , the feast of the assumption is the th of august . dr. oates , my lord , it was either the day before or the day after . marshal , now he hath avouched this positively . dr. oates , nay , i will not be positive . marshall , but you were ●o , that it was the day before or the day after . dr. oates , i appeal to the judges of the cou●t . l. c. j. if he will say it let him , but people are not to be snapt up thus . mr. oats , you are ●pon your oath , and pray answer the question that is asked by the prisoner as positively as you can . if you can , say so , if you cannot , say so . dr. oats , my lord , i do believe verily it was either the day before or the day after . l. c. j. are you sure it was ? dr. oats , my lord , i do verily believe it ▪ marshall , but what accusation is it of a thief or a murderer upon the high-way unless you tell the time exactly ? l. c. j. you see he will not answer positively . marshall , mr. oats , was i at any other consult besides this one ? dr. oats , yes , you were upon the th day of august , if it fell upon a wednesday . marshall , what matter is it what day it fell on ? dr. oats , if it were a wednesday , then the th of august you were at a consult when we had letters from arch-bishop talbot , wherein we had an account of the state of ireland , how the irish affairs did stand , but it did not pay an ir●sh letters price , and therefore i suppose it came from this side of the water , though it was directed as if it came from dublin . and this was read there , and there was in it a prayer that a commission might be sent down , and there were some jesuits , and some benedictines , amongst whom marshall was one , and he did give his consent that the commission should be sent down . l. c. j. what commissions were they ? dr. oats , for officers in the army that was to be raised there . marshall , where was that letter read ? dr. oats , at the benedictine convent . marshall , and this you say was the th of august . l. c. j. and that was on a wednesday as the a●manack say . dr. oats , there he agreed to send the commissions into ireland for the appointing of officers , and did consent to the poysoning of the duke of orm●nd . rumley , when was picke●ing taken ? dr. oats , he was taken the ●ight before , or micha●●mas day in the morning . rumley , were not you there , mr. oats ? dr. oats , yes , i was . l. c. j. were you at all the consults ? dr. oates , no , i was sick when sir george wakeman was offered the l. and receiv'd the five . l. c. j. what consults were you at ? dr. oats , i will answer to those consults that these persons are affected in , there was one consult about the beginning or middle of august , there was another the th of august , and then there was another consult wherein the l. was paid or ordered to be paid to wakeman , and i was not there . rumley , who was the messenger that took pickering ? dr. oates , i do not know him . l. c. j was the consult of sir george wakeman after the th . of august ? dr. oats , no my lord. mr. ward , will you ask him any more questions ? dr. oats , my lord , i desire i may have leave to re●i●e , because i am not well . l. c. j you must stay dr. oats , till after their defence 〈◊〉 mr. 〈◊〉 if you desire to have any refreshment you shall have it got for you . sir rob. sawyer ▪ then we call mr. bedlo● next ( who stood up ) pray sir , speak your knowledge concerning the prisoners at the bar. mr. 〈◊〉 . my lord ▪ before i speak any thing to the prisoners , i desire there may be a difference between the clerks of the council and me decided , they have mistak●n a word in my evidence , and put in new-market for vvindson . l. c. j. what does that signifie to the present business ? mr. bedloe , i desire it may not be brought against me in my evidence . l. c. j. then 't is only for a caution before hand . mr. bedloe . the latter part of the last summer , it was i think about the beginning of august sir george wakeman was at harcourt's chamber , i my self was there first , and when he came in he fetch'd a turn or two about the room seeming angry and discontented , and asked harcourt if he had any thing for him . then harcourt asked him how he did proceed ? said he , i don't know whether i shall or no ; for what reason am i d●ill'd on in such a concern as this ? says mr. harcourt , stay sir george you need not be so hasly to bla●●e us , for we are better provided for you than you think for . vvith that harcourt went to his cabinet and took out five or six papers , and brought a small bill , and asked sir george wakeman ; said he , sir george , how are you provided ? said sir george , i have been ready long since , but you have not been so punctual with me : but what have you there ? said harcourt , i have a bill of l. from whom , said sir george wak●man ? then he named a gentleman , but i don't know him , nor can't remember h●m . and said he , i came now from whitehall , and receiv'd it from such an one , which he said was by the queen's order , and that he had it from her. this bill is charged upon such a goldsmith , and named him , he dwelt somewhere about st. dunstan's chur●● , but i can't remember his name , i 'le tell you by and by why i think he dwelt there . assoon as sir geo. had read it , 't is well said he , if it be accepted , i find more incouragement from my good lady and mistriss , than from any of you all . they had some little more discourse , and sir george asked of harcourt who i was ; said he , 't is a friend that hath been long engaged in our business , and is to do the next great work to yours . vvell said sir george , i will go and see if the bill be accepted , and you shall hear of me to night ; and accordingly he did go . i did not stay but a very little time after him , and therefore i collect he could not go far to get the bill accepted : for i did cross lincoln-inn fieids and came down a lane by temple-bar , and between the queens head and chancery lane end i met with sir george wakeman : said i , have you been with your bill already , and is it accepted ? yes said he , 't is accepted : and when is it to be paid ? i am to go , said he , in the afternoon to receive it . l. c. j. vvho said so ? mr . bedloe , sir george wakeman . l. c. j. to whom ? mr , bedloe to me . and seeing of him return from the city-ward again , i concluded it was not far off , and spoke to him as i tell you . sir george and i were not very well acquainted , but i had known him five years . and upon that character mr. harcourt had given of me , i thought i might make bold with him , & when i asked him and accosted him with that short question , is your bill accepted ? he made me answer it was , and he was to receive it in the afternoon , and thought it not fit to dispute any thing with me . l. c. j. you don't know what goldsmith it was upon ? mr. bedloe . it must be one that lives about st. dunsians church or flecestreet . for he could not go for in that time . l. c. j. where was harcourts chamber ? mr. bedloe , i● dukes-stree next the arch. now i asked harcourt afterward ; whether this was part of the l . said he , we have not adjusted that matter yet , but he received this only as a present supply . and he did in a short time , after receive as much as made it up l . but i asked whether it were for the old business , yes said he , 't is for the fame design , if we should fail of it by other means : ( and so was the discourse to sir george wakeman . ) if we should fail of it at windsor then this way is to be taken , and if this fail too , we will make sure of it at new-market . l. c. j. what do you know of the other prisoners ? mr. bedloe , mr . corker i have seen with kains and le fevre , but never in their company but once , where being in the great court at somerset ▪ house we walked out of the court into the piazza , and there we were speaking of our business . kaines was saying to me , you brought such a letter such a time for me and i have lost it . i do not know what to do for it . said i , do you remember the contents of it ? yes , said he i do . said i , you should take such letters in such a character as none could read but your ●elf , and then burn the letters themselves . said he , i hope it will not come to light , for none will meddle with my papers that can do me any hurt . i heard nothing from mr. corker that did relate positively to the murder of the king , but corker and le fevre were speaking in general about the business , what letters they had received from beyond sea how to manage their affairs . l. c. j. about what matter ? mr. bedloe , about the plot , what letters they had received from beyond sea , and how forward they were in their proceedings here . corker . what did we talk about ? l. c. j. what was it about still ? mr. bedloe , it was about raising the army , and what interest he had with the people , it was in general , i come not to particulars . corker , did kaines or i , or any of us name any such thing as plot , design , or the like ? mr. bedloe , we were discoursing of the business in general . i don't take upon me to speak to particulars . l. c. j. what was it about , say you ? mr. bedloe . about raising an army , what interest he had in the people , who had been sent into the countrey , what they had done , and the like . corker , did you hear any word of killing , army , or d●sign ? mr. bedloe , yes , every one of those w●rds were used . i don't take upon me to tell how the words were placed . mr. ward . what say you to the rest ? l. c. j. when was this discourse ? mr. bedloe , july was twelve moneth . mr. ward . what say you to mr . marshal ? mr. bedloe . mr. marshal hath reason to know me , and i suppose will not pretend to the contrary ▪ fo● he cannot but remember that i knew him when i went to the gate-house . he hath corryed several letters that have been brought from beyond sea , and others that have been writ in england into the countrey , and i hav● been with him in latham's chamber in the savay , and somerset-house , so long since as latham was one of the qu●ens monks . he hath carryed the same letters that i have brought from beyond the 〈…〉 four , or more at a time to communicate to the country gentlemen of the catholick party , that were assi●ants to us , particularly to s●● francis radcliff & others i am sure he hath carryed , and he knew what was the effect of those letters , and what were the answers to them ; he read them as well as any of them , for i think . he is of the same order to the best of my knowledg , though i never saw him in his habit . l. c. j. what was the import of the letters ? mr. bedloe , i never brought any one letter to the religious fathers , and i have brought a great many , but what did import what i have now given in evidence , and did relate to the full substance of what i say now . sir ro : sawyer . can you mention the particulars of any one letter that he knew the contents of ? mr. bedloe . i do mention one which i very well remembet and that was to sir francis radcliff , and i remember it though it be long since because i w●● well acquainted with sir francis r●dcliffs son , and i brought comendations from his son to england . sir robert sawyer , well sir , what was the contents of that letter ? mr. bedloe , it was a copy of the letter from le cheese in paris to the monks & jesuits in england in answer to the first letters that ● brought over to them relating to the management of the design . lord ch. just . was it mentione in that letter what the design was ? mr. bedloe , in that which i carried over to le cheese , it was , that all things were in readiness , and the time now drawing near for they did hope in ● year or two , or in a little time they should be in a capacity to put this in practice , and they did not question but to subvert the oppression and tyranny the catholick● were under in england . sir robert sawyer , was mr . marshal acquainted with the contents ▪ mr. bedloe , he was one of them that use to examine the answers . it was written to him partly , for if he were not a member of then order as i think he is , he was one of the club & consult that saw the contents of al● letters . i have not seen him so often as i have done the others , but i believe he hath been there as often but he hath received to my remembrance twice letters to communicate into the country concerning the subversion of the government , and the introducing of pope●y . mr. ward , what say you to mr . rumly ; mr. bedloe , i cannot be positive as to my own knowledg , but what mr . harcourt has said . l. c. j. do you know any thing of your own knowledg by him ? mr. bedloe i have been told he hath communicated letters of this business into the country . and that he was one employed when any secret letters were sent . l. c. j. so you cannot declare upon your oath that you know that mr . rumley kn●●●he contents of any 〈…〉 to the plot. mr. bedloe , no my lord , i do not . i have a good remembrance of faces , but i do not remember his . sir george wakeman , w●●t day was it th●t i had the discourse with harcourt , and received the bill from him as you say ? mr. bedloe , you ask me a qu●stion as if i were in the state i was formerly in , when i might have an indulgence of or telling a lye . n i have no delight to damn my soul , to ma●e you a martya ; but to satisfie you as well as i can , i say , it was the beginning of august . or part of the beginning , i do not sp●ak to a day . sir george wakeman , how do you know it was a b●l● of exchange for this money ? mr. bedloe . you did read it aloud . sir go●● ge wakeman , had i any acquaintance with you ? mr. bedloe , no , but mr . harcourt told you who i was . sir geo●●ge wakeman , and would i upon the first sight of a man discover to him what would endanger my life ? mr. bedlow , ay , and an hundred times more , if mr ▪ harcourt , did but tell you i was his 〈…〉 . l. c. j what were the contents of that note ? mr. bedloe , i● was directed to a 〈…〉 , whose name i tell you i cannot remember . si ge●●ge vvakeman , you are good at remembring some sir-names , why can't you remember this n●me as we●l ? mr. bedloe , i can remember names that do relate to any business , but only hearing this name by the by i cannot remember u , f●r i ●id not then think it of such consequence . sir george vvakeman , you do not k●ow me ? mr. bedlow , yes i do . sir g●orge vvakeman , i cal god to 〈◊〉 i never saw you before in my life tha● i know of . you have a very remarkable face , and if a man had once seen you he must know you again . l. c. j. who subscribed that note ? mr. bedloe , i don't know , 〈◊〉 was one of the queens gentlemen that harcourt had if from . and whereas s●● george vvakeman sayes he does not know me , i did take physick of him at the bath ? sir george wakeman , vvhen was i at the bath . mr. bedloe , it is some years since . s●r g vvakeman , i never was there but once , and that was a year and an half ago . mr. bedloe , no sir , it is more , than that , for you were there when the queens was there . lord. ch. just . how long is it ago that you were there sir george ? sir george vvakeman , it was about two years ago . mr. bedloe , it is three years this samm●● . l. c. j. then that is well enough ▪ for that is some years since . mr. bedloe , i had acqu●intance enough with him while he was there ▪ sir g. vvakeman , i say this , my lord , if i had been acquinted with mr . bedlow , i should have known him to be a g●eat rogue , wh●ch is but what he hath said of himself ; and then i should not have thought it fit to have trusted such an one wi●● such a great secret as this . l. c. j. it may he call himself great 〈◊〉 for that which you would have applauded him for , and canonized him too . it may 〈◊〉 thinks he was 〈◊〉 for , going so far as he did ; but perhaps you are of another or 〈◊〉 . mr. bedloe . my lord , i could not count my self an honest ●●an , that had conse●t●d to the death of the king and sir edmundbury gods●●y . sir g wakeman , but though he gives you an account of such a bill delivered to me , yet neither he tells you the time , nor mention● the man upon whom it was drawn : here are all the ●●arks of falshood that can possibl , he . l. c. j. no , he does not mention the man upon whom it was drawn , nor from whom ; nor can he say that ever you received it , but you were to receive it . sir g. vvakeman , how came he to omit that ? but because i should have no plea for my self when i came to be accused of it . mr. bedloe , pray sir george don't press me to say more than i know . i do tell you all that i can say of my self . mr. recerder , have you any more questions to ask him ? marshall , i ask you this question ; first , why will you damn your soul to send me to heaven ? lay your hand upon your heart , and in the presence of god declare whether ever you saw me in your life , before you came to the gatehouse ? whether ever you saw me in any part of the world whatsoever ? and whereas you say now that i owned that i knew you there ; it was so far from it , that all the company that were there , will say that you did not know me , and declared your self a stranger to me . mr. bedloe ▪ no , sir , pardon me ; you did not deny but that you had seen my face . marshall . no , all the company that were there will say that you owned your self a stranger to me , you told me mr . marshal , be not afraid , i will do you no hurt . but mr . bedloe , where have you seen me ? mr. bedloe , at the benedictines convent in the savoy . and my lord , the first word that i said , when i saw him , was , that this mans name is marshall , and he carried such & such letters into the countrey , and sir william waller can testifie the same . ( vvho standing upon the bench was sworn , ) mr. recorder , mr . marshall , you had best to hearken to what sir vvilliam waller says , sir william waller . my lord , i went to the prison to see mr . mashall , and mr . bedloe was there with me , mr . bedloe asked him if he did not know him , and called him by his name ; he declared he had seen him before , but said he did not know him . l. c. j. did he call him by his name as if he knew him ? sir william vvaller . yes , my lord he did . l. c. j. look you , mr . marshal , he sayes that you your self owned that you had seen him before , though you were not of his acquaintance , marshall . what sir william waller says , i must oppose , though i am extremely sorry so to do . sir william , you may please to remember , that you came to me after mr : bedloe was gone . sir william waller . no , i was there with you before he came in . marshall , i believe those of the gatehouse do remember that i spoke with mr . bedloe in private in an interior room ; what you spoke was in the open hall there . you asked me whether mr . bedloe had not been there ? i to●d you yes that was in the publick ●lace ; whereas mr . bedloe talked with me only in a private room . sir w●lliam waller . my lord , what i have said is upon my oath , and 't is nothing but the truth . marshall . and i am upon my life , therefore i am very sorry i must for the truth sake , and defence of my life contradict what you say . what your● worship and i spoke was in the publick room ; but what discourse mr . bedloe and i had , was in another private room . l. c. j. look you , sir william waller , was you there when mr . bedloe was with him . sir william vvaller , i was my lord. l. c. j. vvhere ? sir vvilliam vvaller , in the common room . l. c. j. vvhat did he say concerning mr . bedloe in the common room ? sir vvilliam vvaller . mr. bedloe called him by his name and asked if he knew him ? he said he had seen his face , but did not know him . l. c. j. do you hear that mr . marshall ? marshall , truly , my lord , it goes against my heart to speak any t●●g in opposition to what sir vvilliam vvaller says , for i would not for all the world reflect or ▪ say ▪ any thing that should glance upon sir vvilliam vvaller , as if he had taken a false oa h●b●t all in the gat●h ▪ use nay mr bedloe himsel● knows that he had discourse with me in a private room before sir vvilliam vvaller came . l. c. j. mr. bedloe speak yourself ; was sir william vvaller there , when you came to the gatehouse ? mr. bedloe , my lord , i had an order from the council-board to go and see the prisoner , there was no body that told me his name , nor that i knew , knew it ; but i would not do it , i was so cautious , but in the hearing and company of a justice of peace , and therefore i went away before they had called him down , and i went to see if the house of commons were sitting ; and when i came back , sir w. vvaller was just coming thither , and so i went in with him , for i met him at the bottom of the stairs . we came into the common room , and there was mr. marshall with the keeper , and i was in no other room , but the common room . and sir w. vvaller withdrew to the end of the room while i asked him some questions ; and pray will you please to ask sir w. waller whether i did not call him by his name as soon as i saw him ? sir vv. waller . yes , my lord , he did : he asked him if his name was not marshal ? and whether he did not know him ? and he said he had seen his face , but had no acquaintance with him . marshall , were not you with me first in that room which turns in on the right hand from the common room ? mr. bedloe , i do not know any such room in the gatehouse . marshall . there were your guards , mr. bedloe , and there were several others in the gate-house ; they cannot but remember what room i was brought into , they cannot possibly but remember , that when sir william waller came to me , he asked me whether mr. bedloe , had been with me . l. c. j. look you , gentlemen , they have done , call what witnesses you will , and make your defence as well as you can ▪ marshall , my lord , i did not think or imagine any such thing would be spoke of ; or that there would need any attestation for it . lord ch. just . look you , they have done ; we will hear what your witnesses will say , as long as you will. marshall , my lord , mr. bedloe see●'d a perfect stranger to me when he came to the gate-house ; and to encourage me , told me mr. marshall ( says he ) do not fear , i will do you no hurt at all . did not you send ( saith he ) to such an one , to have mr ▪ bedloe questioned about such and such things ? which i denied , and he did not seem by any word that he spoke ▪ to have seen m● before in his life . l. c. j. he told sir w. vvaller your name was marshall , though you went by a wrong name , the name of marsh . marshall , he might easily know my name by those that took me . l. c. j. but i tell you , you went by a wrong name then , marsh . marshall , my lord , i am called promis●uo●sly marsh and marshall . but marshall is the ● am● i own . l. c. j. and that is the name he knew you by . marshall , i did not call my self marsh when i was taken , but told my true name . mr. bedloe , my lord , i did not hear of any name at all , but i said , this is marshall , one of the benedictine monks ▪ as soon as i came in : marshall , mr . bedloe seem'd to encourage me to hope , and bid me not fear ; said he , you will have an honourable bench , and a good jury . and this they that were there , can testifie . lord ch. just . call them : call your vvitnesses . marshall , but , my lord , i did not know any thing of this . and sir w. waller's question that he asked me was , if mr. bedloe was with me . l. c. j. you hear what he sayes . marshall , i am infinite loth to say it , because he swears it ▪ and you well know , mr. bedloe , you talked with your guards a while , and then turned at last to me . mr. bedloe , yes , i did talk with my guards , but sir w. vvaller was in the room as well as i. l. c. j. by what name were you committed ? marshall , i had letters about me writ to me by that name ; and i thought it my duty to answer to that name that the letters did call me by . l. c. j. vvell , have you any witnesses ? marshall , this is a surprize , i did not know of any such thing . l. c. j. h●ve you any witnesses , sir g. vvakeman ? sir g vvakeman , yes , my lord , i have several . marshall , but mr . bedloe , can you say you have seen me any where before you saw me at the gatehouse ? mr. bedloe , yes . marshall , vvhere ? mr. bedloe , at the savoy . marshall , and any where else ? mr. bedloe , yes and at other places . marshall , name one other place in the whole world , and i will be contented to dye . mr. bedloe , i will tell you why i cannot name any other place positively . i did carry the letters thither : there were the consults about them , and there i used to converse with you most . marshall , can you prove that ever you were in the savoy in your life ? and i will be hanged without any thing more to do . if you can prove it either by man , woman , or child , i will go to the gal●ows , and will not say one word more . mr. bedloe , my lord , i have other witnesses , but at present i cannot produce them : there are some in kent , they are some of them in one countrey , and some in another , i reserve them for another time , but there is oath made of it before the secret committe●s of the lords and commons . l. c. j. how can he imagine that this should be put upon him ? therefore you may well b●l●eve that ●e hath never a vvitness present . it may be he hath none can prove he ever was at vv●stmi●ster h●ll in his life , for who could imagine such a question should be put to him ? marshall , having been there several times , i suppose he did not use to go alone ; 't is imp●ssib●e , b●t if they had been with him often there , he might prove i● ; if he say true , su●e some sh●uld attest● 〈◊〉 . l. c. j. 't is likely 〈◊〉 should be so , b●t ●e hath them not h●re . mr. j. 〈◊〉 , why , do you think he can bring vvitnesses for every act that he did in his l●●e ? marshall , i he have them not here ▪ ●et him h●ve time to produce them . lord ch. just . he hath a witness in kent , would you have us keep up the jury till he sends for his witness out of ken● ? mr. bedloe , there is my landlord , at whose house i lay so long , can testifie it . marshall , who is that ? mr. bedloe , mr . c●tt a beltmaker in the new exchange ▪ he hath gone often with me when i have gone into the convent , and he hath gone round about , and his maid that used to carry the ●ortmantle , wherein i brought over the letters from beyond sea. l ▪ c. j. can you name any one body that ever see you in the savoy ? mr. bedloe , i do name one , and besides ; my lord , i lay in the savoy half a year at one woodroffs . marshall . was that the place you saw me in ? mr. bedloe , no , no body came there but monks and messengers . marshall , was you there at the time when the savoy was searched ? mr. bedloe , no , but i gave sir w. waller directions to search in the most material places of it . mr. recorder , he says a material thing , if he be in the right , that he did give directions to ● sir w. waller to search in the most material places of the savoy . we will ask that question of sir william whether he did or no ? sir w. waller , both mr. oates and mr. bedloe did give me directions to search in the savoy ; they told me of such a particular room where pickering lay , and where such a closet was , & many other things ; and it was by their directions that i made the search . l. c. j. look you what sir w. waller says ; he says that both mr. oates and mr. bedloe did describe several rooms to him in the savoy , which it was impossible for them to make such a description , if they had not been there before . marshall , i desire to know when that discription was given ? sir w. waller , two or three days before i took mr. marshall . marshall , mr. oates made searches there before . l. c. j. but we speak of bedloe now . marshall but mr. bedloe might have knowledge from him and others that were there . l ▪ c. j. do you think he must needs go officiously to inform bedloe of what he found upon an imagination that such a question should fall out hereon ? and if he received no information , how then could he descr●b● the rooms without he knew them ? marshall , may there not be several houses that i may give a discription of , upon the hearsay of others , though i were never in them my self ? lord ch. just . no , i know not very w●ll how ; and there is no reason you should imagine he received information from oates . marshall , my lord , there is reason enough , because both do c●mb●ne in the same accusation . mr. bedloe , my lord , i gave sir w. waller directions to search in such a place , under such a bench in pickerings apa●tment , where he found the gun that was to kill the king. l. c. j. well , call your witnesses , sir george . sir g. wakeman , call mr. chapman . l. c. j. but before they begin , sir robe●● sawyer , we must do all the right to every one we can ; i do not find by the strictest observation that i have made , that mr. bedloe , who is the second witness , does say any great thing , any material thing against any one of them ; but as for rumley , he says nothing at all . he says in effect , against sir george wakeman , no more than this , that he saw harcourt give him a note for l . which he said was from the queen ; upon which sir george said he was more beholden to his good lady and mistress , than to any of them all . the note he does not know who drew it , nor upon whom it was drawn ; nor does he say what it was for , more than harcourt told him , which was in doubtful words , that it was about the old business ; but harcourt did not tell him this in the presence of sir george wakeman , but he spoke to harcourt about it . it is no more , than sir george wakeman received from harcourt the bill of exchange , he does not know upon whom , nor for what . sir r●b . s●wyer , my lord , he says more , with submission ; for he says this further , that there was a discourse about the business ; and he did tell you , that sir george wakeman should complain that they had not done well with him , and asked why he was drill'd on ; but when the note● was produced , he said , my matters are already prepared , but you are not so ready to perform your promises . then said harcourt , if you are ready for us , we are ready for you ; and told him , if he did not do it , they would do it at new-market . l. c. j. what is all this ? pray mr. bedloe stand up again , we are now in the case of mens lives , and pray have a care that you say no more than what is true upon any man whatever . i would be loth to keep out popery by that way they would bring it in , that is by blood or violence . i would have all things go very fair . pray what , upon y●ur oath , was the first part of sir george wakemans discourse with harcourt when they met ? l. c. j. north , relate again your whole knowledge concerning sir george wakeman , and the bill of exchange , and the discourse after it , because we are now upon the considera●ion of it , what effect it will have upon him . mr. bedloe , my lord , i was with harcourt in the chamber , and sir george wakeman came in , and walked a turn or two about the room , and seemed to be discontented . how do you , sir george , said harcourt ? says sir george , for what am i drill'd on thus in a concern of this importance ? what is the matter with you , sir george , said harcourt ? why , is this a business to be slighted , said sir george , as i am ? for i have no performance of your promises . why , said harcourt , what would you have ? we are ready for you . then said he , i am ready for you . and then harcourt spoke merrily to him , why are you so angry , sir george ? and upon that he goes to his cabinet and searching among his bags , he found a little note among them , and gave it to sir george ; saith he , there is a bill for you : i have been to day at w●itehall , and received it by the queens order , from such a gentleman [ whose name i cannot now remember ] ; and 't is upon such a man for l . [ but i cannot remember the goldsmiths name neither ] well , said sir george , 't is well some body gives me encouragement ; i have more encouragement from my good lady and mistress , than from any of you . nay , said harcourt , for encouragement , that you shall not want ; for the rest shall be paid in due time . sir george wakeman , if the queen had given me l . for the service i had done her , was that any ha●m ? i have deserved it , i am sure , for nine years service . sir rob. sawyer ▪ what other discourse had they then ? mr. bedloe , said harcourt , but sir george , this must be well followed , and closely observed , because so much depends upon it ; for if we should miss to kill him at windsor , or you miss in your way , we will do it at new-market . l. c. j. who said so ? mr. bedloe , harcourt , l. c. j. did harcourt say before sir georges face , if we miss killing him at windsor , and you miss your way , we will do it at new-market . mr. bedloe , yes , he did say , if we miss killing him at windsor , and you miss in your way ( which we hope you will not ) we will do it at new-market . l. c. j. he says now quite another thing than he said before ▪ l. c. j. north , mr. recorder , sir r. sawyer , no , he said the same before . l. c. j. what answer made sir george wakeman ? mr. bedloe , sir george wakeman said , if i find you ready , i will be ready in all things . l. c. j. was the word spoke of poysoning ? mr. bedloe , i have spoken that already . if we miss at windsor , and you miss in your way ; i do not remember whether the word poyson was used ; but i knew by what mr. harcourt ▪ and others had told me , that poyson was meant by it . l. c. j. was all this one intire discourse ? mr. bedloe , yes , my lord. then sir george said privately to his fellow-prisoners , there is my business done . sir rob. sawyer , here is a positive proof of the receipt of money , which coupled with what oats says , and the discourse that mr. bedloe tells you of , makes it out what it was for . this was paid in part , was it not , sir ? mr. bedloe , the answer that mr. harcourt gave to sir george , was , that he should have the rest in due time . l. c. j. but what say you to marshall , but that he carried letters ? sir george wakeman , was there no body present but you ? mr. bedloe , there was only harcourt , you and i. l. c. j. but what say you to corker ? mr. bedloe , corker hath been in the company with le faire , talking of news , what encouragement they had by letters from beyond sea , as those they had from france ; such and such letters speak that they are in readiness of money , men and arms ; and if we are ready here , they are ready for us . this was usually the discourse and all upon the same design . now when we talked of this business , we did not say the word plot , but we all know what was intended by it , that is the plot. l. c. j. and what said corker ? mr. bedloe , he said it was well , he did know what readiness such and such persons were in when the design was likely to take effect . i know not their names ; we were talking of several persons several times , some in england , and some beyoud sea . l. c. j. what can you say to marshal ? mr. bedloe , i do say , that he hath been to consult of the return of letters which were the answers to those i brought from beyond sea . l. c. j. did he know the contents of those letters ? mr. bedloe , yes , my lord , he hath been in consultation what answer to make again . l. c. j. and was all this about the plot ? mr. bedloe , yes , for the subverting the protestant religion , and bringing in popery , and raising of an army . marshall , can you prove i knew any of those gentlemen the letters were carried to mr. bedloe , i name one , that was to sir francis radcliff . marsh ▪ how does he know that i know sir francis radcliff ? l. c. j. well sir george , will you call your witnesses ? sir george wakeman , call , mr. chapman , ( which was done . ) my lord there was a letter or note of directions from me to mr . ashby , and 't is affirmed by master oates , that in that letter i should let master ashby know i did approve well of the proposals that were made to me to poyson the king , and that the queen would assist me in it , and that in the same letter there were directions given what he should take , and how many strokes of the pump he should make use of , and several other things fit for a physician to direct his patient in . now , my lord , i will prove by ▪ this gentleman master chapman● , who is mayor of bath , that he received this very note from master ashby , that he read it from the beginning to the end of it ; that there was no word in it , or mention of the king or queen in the whole letter , unless it be of the king or queens bath . and , my lord , i think he hath a piece of this letter still , that part that was the physical part he tore off , and kept himself : now 't is none of my hand , i never writ a letter to ashby upon any occasion whatsoever ; and i will tell your lordship how it came to pass , i did not write that letter , i hope by a providence , for i never but used to write my physical directions with my own hand . it happened that i came home late , and i was very ill ; ashby sent to me for his note , because he was to go out of town the next morning ; being weary and indisposed , i laid me down on the couch , and sent for my man , who is an apothecary now , and is the better able to write such a letter ; i dictated the letter to him , all my family , and all that were by , can testifie the same ; he knows very well my hand and hath part of it to produce ; for when the queen was there , i made use of him for my apothecary , and those physical directions i sent down for the bath , i sent always to him . he is a very good witness as to my hand . l. c. j. but you may speak of one letter , and mr . oates of another . sir g. wakeman . why ▪ did i write two letters of directions ? what need that ? he says he saw a letter with my name subscribed to it . l. c. j. yes , it was so , and that you should be assisted by the queen to poyson the king ; and being asked how he did know that was your hand ? he said , i did not see him write , but i saw him in the posture of writing ; and when he went away , there was left on the table , and the ink as not dry , a physical bill , which was the same hand with that the letter was . sir george wakeman . ay , my lord , but he does not call that a letter but it was a physical bill , and not a letter ; so that there was but one letter . l. c. j. but there was a note of physical directions in the letter . dr. oat●s , that letter was at least half a sheet of a side , close written , wherein , were those passages that i mentioned ; but i cannot give an account of all contained in it , but this my lord i remember , that he should take a pint of milk in the morning , and a pint of milk in the evening , and should have so many strokes at the bath ; but this was several days before ashby went to the bath , i believe at least ten , presently after , he came to town . and i say , that this letter that the court asks me how i prove i● to be his hand , i prove it thus : i saw him write a bill to an apothecary for mr . ashby to take something when he was in town . l. c. j. but was that business of being assisted to kill the king in the same letter tha the physical directions were in ? dr. oates , yes , my lord. sir g. wakeman , then 't is the same letter ▪ l. c. j. how does that follow ? might there not be two ? sir g. wakeman . there is only that part of it which is the physical prescriptions , he hath torn off the other part . then mr. chapman was examined . mr. chapman , my lord , the th . of july last mr . thimbleby ' came to the bath . lord ch. just , who ? mr. chapman , mr . thimbleby ; a man of a about forscore years of age , a very feeble and infi●m man , assoon as he came to me , he told me that sir g. wakeman recommended me to him , and desired me that i would provide a lodging for him as near the king and queens bath as i could : i did so ; and then he shewed me a letter from sir george , whereof this was the lower part of half a sheet of paper ; there was full directions how to take the physick , and after the taking the bolus to drink the waters so many day ▪ and then to use the bath , and after that the pump , and after that he was to take a dose of pills after his bathing . i took off this latin bill that concerns me my lord and gave him the english part l. c. j. did you read the english part ? mr. chapman , my lord , my son did read it as well as i , who should have come up and testified the same , but that it is impossible for both my son and me to leave the shop and come together , because of my employment . l. c. j. but in that letter there was nothing mentioned of killing the king was there ? nor of the queen ? mr. chapman , no , my lord , not upon the word of a christian , except it were the king and queen's bath . then the paper was shewn him . l. c. j. whose hand is that ? do you believe it is sir george's hand ? mr. chapman , no , my lord : i have brought some of sir g. wakeman , bills here . lord ch. just , do you know whose hand it is ? mr. chapman , no my lord , mr. just . aikyns , what name was subscribed to that letter . mr. chapman , there is none subscribed to this paper . lord ch. just , was there no name to it ? mr. chapman , i did not take notice of that . lord ch. just , but look you , this cannot be that letter , because that letter mr oates speaks of was of sir george's own hand , as he thinks by comparison , and his name subscribed to it . sir g. wakeman . i never writ any other letter , but what was dictated to my man , ●nd sent by ashby to the bath . my lord , he hath owned it himself before the house of lords that i writ but one letter ; and i had my libertty before . now it was told him there , that if he had mentioned that letter when i was examined before the council , i had been certainly taken into custody then , and shou'd never have had my liberty so long . i had my liberty from the last of september , and could have gone to const●●●i●●●le ● in the time i had my liberty , and certainly i should have provided for my self if i 〈◊〉 known my se●f guilty , seeing so many cast into prison upon that account . mr. recorder , 't is not probable that mr. ashby would communicate such a lette● to this gentleman that had such a design in it . sir g. wakeman . but if any one can let him prove that i had any other business with him , than meerly the business of a physician with his patient . my lord , i have a physician in town that will testifie that i was to meet him in consultations about ashby . l. c. j. the answer is no more than this , that you did write letter , or there was a letter writ by your directions , to ashby , which hath not any such matter in it as oates speaks of , but this answers not mr . oates's testimony ; 't is true , the question will be upon mr . oates's credit , how far the jury will believe him : if mr . oates swear true , then you did write another letter ▪ and this is not the letter , and there is no contradiction in your answer to what he says , but mr . oates stands with the jury how far they will believe him . sir g. vvakeman . gentlemen of the jury , take notice i never writ any letter but that ▪ lord ch. just . how dos that appear ? if mr . oates swears true , you did write another letter . mr. just . aikins , mr . chapman , was there any mention of milk in that letter . mr. chapman . no my lord , it is ridiculous to drink milk with the waters , it will make it curdle . dr oates , that is not the hand the letter i saw was in . lord ch. just . he says 't is not the same hand . dr. oates , it was another , a gentile hand . mr. just . pemberton , and there was no mention made of milk in it , the contents are not the same . sir george wakeman , the contents were the same : but as for the milk it is so ridiculous a thing , that never a physician in england , but will say 't is perfect poyson . i appeal to mr . chapman , who hath so long known the way there used , if any one prescribed milk to any one that took the waters . l. c. j. mr. oats , was there in the letter you saw , where mention is made of the strokes that were to be received from the pump , any mention of the milk to be taken ? dr. oats , the direction of the milk was for the time he staid in town . mr. just . aikins . the milk was to be used while he stayed here , was it ? dr. oates , yes , my lord. l. c. j. look you , there were two things that he should do , the one of them was to be done while he was here , that was the milk ; the other was to be done when at the bath , and that was the strokes . sir george vvakeman . no , 't is no such thing ; for he went away two days after that letter was written . mr. just . pemberton , mr. chapman , i● this part of the body of the letter ? mr. chapman , yes , my lord , upon the word of a christian ; i tore it off my self . mr. just , ellys , if dr. oates swears true , it cannot be the same letter . l. c. j. your answer to it , which should make it improbable , is , that it is ridiculous to prescribe milk , now he says those were directions what he was to do before he went to the bath . sir g. wakeman . why should i repeat the number of the strokes twice , and write two letters about one thing ? mr. just . pemberton , is there any date upon the letter ? mr. chapman , no. mr. just . pemberton . off of what part of the letter did you tear it ? mr. chapman , off the bottom of it . lord. ch. just . north , what , it was writ cross was it ? mr. chapman , yes , i believe so . mr. just . atkyns , the truth of it is , this is no evidence , and ought not to be offerd as such , for 't is but part of a thing which we do not know what it was in the whole . mr. chapman , i can give it upon my oath , that there was nothing in it of the king or queen , except the king or queens bath . l. c. j. mr. oates , if i remember right , you say the directions that you saw were at the beginning of the letter . dr. oates , he was very weak when he came to town , and his directions to him then were , that he should take a pint of milk in the morning , and that when he went to the bath he should have a hundred strokes , or thereabouts . l. c. j. was this in the beginning of the letter ? dr. oates , it was after a line or two that was complements . lord ch. just . was there any receipt for physick in latin in it ? dr. oates , no , my lord , there was not ; no , my lord , it was half a sheet of paper ; it was full of it self to the bottom ; this is not the letter , , my lord. mr. just . pemberton , he says this is neither the hand , nor the name subscribed , nor the contents of the letter , all these differ . sir george wakeman , i 'll tell you the reason why my name was not subscribed , i was sick , my man is h●re to witness that he carryed it himself , and delivered it to ashby . mr. just . pemberton . but , sir george , you do not observe that to the letter which he saw your name was subscribed . sir george wakeman , this then is that i desire may be taken notice of , 't is not probable that i should write two letters for the same thing , and i never writ any other letter in my life . l. c. j. this is that you say , and let it be taken notice of , that it is not probable that you should write two letters for the same directions how he might use the bath . mr. just . pemberton , this might be writ to serve a turn very well . sir george wakeman , then i 'll tell you the reason why my name is not to it , and so satisfie you about it as much as i can ; i was very ill after i had dictated that letter to him , and went immediately to bed. it was not writ very fair , or something was left out which he interlined , and so he transcribed it again in his own chamber , and i was then asleep , and so did not put my name to it , and he went away two hours in the morning before i awoke . mr. just . atkyns , who wrote the letter ? vvas the letter you tore off in the man's name , or in sir george's name ? mr. chapman , i know not who wrote it . mr. just . atkyns , was it said to be , by my master's directions ? what were the contents of the letter ? mr. chap. it was only thus , as for● as you com● to the bath , after resi●ng a day , in the first place take your b●us , and after drink the waters , which he did for ●ix d●ys together . dr. oates , my lord , i would answer to this : this was not the letter , for therein he only told him what he should do before he went to the bath , and how many stroks he should receive : besides , my lord , there was not one syllable of the bolus , in the letter , or what bath he was to go into ; but when he came there he was to receive so many strokes of the pump . sir g wakeman , nor one syllable of the milk in it neither . dr. oates ▪ yes there was ▪ he did take milk night and morning , for i attended upon him . sir g. vvakeman , my lord you see this witness is a protestant , mr. just . pemberton . mr . oates , you say that the letter that you saw was written ten days before he went to the bath ? dr. oates , yes , if not more : sir g. vvakeman , why should i tell him of an hundred strokes so long before he went to the bath . l. c. j. you might mention it to give him satisfaction . well , have you any more ? sir george vvakeman . yes , my lord. call hunt. who stood up . lord ch. just . what do you call him to , sir george ? sir george wakeman , this is my man. what do you know concerning a letter of directions that was sent to mr . ashby , give an account of it . hunt , if it please your honour , my master was out late : and comeing home , i told him mr . ashby had sent for some directions for the bath ; and being weary and indisposed , ( for it was late , and he was not well ) said he , i cannot write my self , do you take my pen and ink and write . i did take the pen and ink and write ; and when ● had written something was false in it , pray said he , correct that : i did so , and interlined it , and when my master was in bed i writ it over again , and the next morning , before he was awake , i carryed it to mr . ashby my self , and there were only directions in it what to do at the bath . l. c. j. when was mr . ashby to goe to the bath ? how soon after ? hunt , he was to go the next morning . l. c. j. if what mr . oates swears be true , this letter that he saw was ten days before , so what he speaks is quite another thing . sir g vvakeman , i never writ any such letter in my life , and i hope the jury will take notice of it . mr. just atkyns , do you know any thing of mr . ashby's drinking milk while he was here ? hunt. no , but he was saying he was advised by a friend of his to drink milk . l. c. j. when at the bath ? hunt , no. when he was in town . l. c. j. when he was in town : that it consistent with mr . oates's testimony . sir george wakeman . my lord , there is a physician that was in consultation with me about mr . ashby , i think it of great consequence to shew that i came to him about no treasonable affair , i vow to almighty god i did not . l. c. j. if you have any more witnesses , call them . sir george vvakeman , call elizabeth henningham . who stood up : l. c. j. sir george , what do you ask her ? henningham . i was present , my lord , at the writing of the letter . his servant writ , and he dictated to him , every word of the letter i saw , but there was no such thing in it . l. c. j. i am very confident that this is true that you say , but it is not to the thing that mr . oates speaks of , and charges you withall : that you did write such a letter as these people mention , and there was nothing in it , but like a physician's directions to his patient , i do believe , and this was just when he was going to the bath , but mr. oates tells you ( if he says true ) that this letter he speakes of , to which sir george wakeman was subscribed , was ten days before he went to the bath ; and that there was no mention of any bolus in that , but the direction was in the first part how he was to use himself while he staied in town to drink milk , and when he came to the bath to use the pump , so that this your witnesses say , and you urge , is true , but not pertinent . sir george vvakeman , i say , my lord , it is not probable that i shou'd write directions so long before he went. henningham , my lord , he said himself he wanted directions to go to the bath in my own hearing . mr. just . pemberton , yes ▪ he might , and indeed he did so , for the first contained none , but how he should behave himself while he was here , l. c. j. have you any more witnesses , pray call them . sir g. wakeman . my lord , i have thi● to say , as i told you before , that i had my liberty for twenty four days after my examination before the council . mr . oates call'd at the bar of the house of commons , & there gave an account of this very letter that he mentions now , i say it was at the bar of the house of commns . and thereupon the commons sent an address to the house of lords , with astonishment that i was not under confinement ; and thereupon mr . oates was called to the bar of the house of lords , & was commanded to give an account what it was he knew concerning me , that should create such an astonishment in the house of commons : he told them of this letter , and my lord chancellour said to him , do you know it was sir george wakeman's hand ? no said he : how do you know it was his letter then ? i know it only by this , said he , it was subscribed george wakeman . if he had such proof as he says he had now if he had seen me writing , & came into the room where the paper i writ was yet wet whether he would not have mentioned it there when he was examined about the knowledge of my hand . l. c. j. call your witnesses : but what say you mr . oates , your self to it ? dr. oates , my lord sir g. wakeman had his liberty because i was so weak , by reason of being up two nights together , one whereof was so very wet and being hot , wet and cold all in a few hours time , so that i thought it would have cost me my selfe ; not being used to such hard services ; i did not char●e sir george so fully : though it may be objected to this court , that i was bound to speak the whole truth ; and so i did , as opportunity and health would give me leave . and as to the letter , and what i said about it in the lords house , sir george is mistaken . he says here that i said i knew his no otherwise , but by seeing sir george wakeman subscribed to it . sir george wakeman , i will prove it by the ●ecord . dr. oates . now , my lord , i humbly desire that he may propose his questions to the court : and i desire to know whether i did say , i did not know it any other ways but by its being signified g wakeman . sir g. wakeman , pray my lord , be pleased to give me leave — lord ch. just . mr. oates , did you mention in the house of lords whether you knew his hand or on ? dr. oates , my lord , i cannot call to mind what i then said i did say , i saw such a letter signed george wakeman , but if he will bring the record , and one that shall swear those were the words , i will leave it to the jury . but this , my lord , i would add , if you will give me leave , the words i did say , as near as i can remember , were these ; when they asked me how i knew sir george wakemans hand ; i said , i saw such a letter signed george wakeman . now , my lord , upon this information they did think fit to take sir george wakeman up , and secure him ; and now i come face to face ; and am not only to satisfie judges , but a jury ; i shew you what reasons i have to believe it , and what they may have , that it was his hand : for i say i saw him in a writing posture , i saw him lay by the pen , i saw him withdraw from the paper , i saw none but another gentleman there that was ●ame of both his hands , and the ink was not dry , and it was the same hand with the letter . sir g. wakeman , was my name to that note ? dr. oates , no , i will not swear that ; but the character of the hand was the same , if i may judge of writing : lord chief justice north , look you , sir george , you spoke of witnesses you would call to prove what he swore in the house of lords ; if you can call any witnesses for that , do . sir. g. wakeman , call sir philip lloyd : i hope your lordship will please to allow me at least this advantage ( i know not whether it be an advantage ) that the record of the house of lords may be made use of as a record here . if i prove it by the record it will be a good evidence . l. c. j. have you that record here ? sir geo. wakeman , i have a copy of that record , and a witness that will swear it . then sir philip lloyd appeared , and stood up . l. c. j. what do you ask sir philip lloyd ? sir george wakeman , i desire to know of sir philip lloyd , what mr. oates said of me before his majesty and the council the last day of september ; sir , you were there present , and sent by the king to me , and commanded to bring me in to the council . sir philip lloyd , i will , my lord , as well as i can , recollect and tell you as near as i can what mr. oates did then accuse him of . it was upon the one and thirtieth day of september , mr. oates did then say he had seen a letter , to the best of his remembrance , from mr. white to mr. fenwick at saint omers ▪ in which letter he writ word , that sir george wakeman had undertaken the poysoning of the king , and was to have l. for it ; of which l. had been paid him by the hands of coleman . sir george wakeman upon this was called in , and told of this accusation , he utterly denyed all , and did indeed carry himself as if he were not concerned at the accusation , but did tell the king and councel he hoped he should have reparation and satisfaction for the injury done to his honour . his carriage was not well liked of by the king and council , and being and matter of such consequence as this was , they were willing to know further of it ; and because they thought this evidence not proof enough to give them occasion to commit him , being only out of letter of the third person , thereupon they called in mr. oates again , and my lord chancellor desired mr. oates to tell him if he knew nothing personally of sir george wakeman , because they were in a matter of m●meut ; and desired sufficient proof whereupon to ground a commitment ; mr. oates , when he did come in again , and was asked the question , did lift up his hands ( for i must tell the truth let it be what it will ) and said , no , god forbid that i should say any thing against sir george wakeman , for i know nothing more against him . and i refer my self to the whole council whether it was not so . dr. oates , i remember not one word of all this . sir george wakeman , my lord , this is a protestant witness too . dr. oates , my lord , give me leave to make an answer : when i did report this letter , the council did ask me whether or no sir george was any ways concerned in this letter , i replied , i had it by report , that sir george had received l. of this money . my lord , the council did not press me to my knowledge ; i will not be positive , but if the council did pre●s me , and i did make that answer , i do appeal to the whole board whether or no i was in a condition to make any answer at all , when by reason of my being hurried up and down , and sitting up , i was scarce compos mentis . l. c. j. what , must we he amused with i know not what for being up but two nights ? you were not able to give an answer ; that when they call and send for mr. oats again to give a positive charge , and then you tell us a story so remote ; what was mr. oates just so spent , that he could not say i have seen a letter under sir george wakemans own hand . dr. oats , my lord , i did to the best of my remembrance make mention of that letter , that sir g. wakaman writ , before the board . i say to the best of my skill and knowledge , but i will not be positive in it . l. c. j. you have heard what sir philip lloyd says . mr. justice dolhen , what say you , did mr. oates make my mention of this letter ? sir philip lloyd , truly , my lord , i can't remember that there was any such letter mentioned . i tell you what i do remember ; and afterwards because he came and gave this deposition before the lords and commons , that he found such a letter upon the table from sir george to ashby , indeed i did very much wonder at it , and it made me reflect upon that other passage at the council , of his denying to accuse sir george further , and it hath been in my mind ever since . l. c. j. and you do declare , that when the lords of the council asked him whether he knew any thing more particularly against sir george wakeman , he did lift up his hands and said , no , god forbid i should charge him any further , i know no more against him . sir philip lloyd , yes , my lord , so it was . dr. oates , my lord , i believe sir philip lloyd is mistaken , but however i was so weak ; and the king and council were so sensible of it , that the king himself hád like to have sent me away once or twice before , because he found i was so weak . l. c. j. it did not require such a deal of strength , to say , i saw a letter under sir georges own hand . l. c. j. north , well , it must be left to the jury : if you have any more witnesses call them . l. c. j. just . mr. oates , sir george wakeman urged it right , that he should not have been permitted to have his liberty so long , if you had charged him home thea . sir g. wakeman , call mr. lydeott . dr. oats , to speak the truth , they were such a council as would commit no body . mr. recorder , that was not well said . sir george wakeman , he reflects on the king and all the council . l. c. j. you have taken a great confidence , i know not by what authority , to say any thing of any body . but this is naturally true , that when the council were offended at the carriage of sir g. wakeman at the board , and therefore sent for mr. oates again , doubting in themselves whether what they had would be sufficient to commit him ; for indeed it was not only a wild thing , of what was mentioned in a letter of a third person's , that sir george had accepted of fifteen thousand pounds , and received the five ; therefore said they , we will know of mr. oates some more particulars , and sent for him in again , and asked him , do you know any thing of your own knowledge ? if he had come in then and said , yes , i have seen a letter subscribed under sir george wakeman's hand , would not they have committed him ? surely they would . and now the council's not committing him , is an argument , that they had not sufficient evidence , and oates did omit at that time to charge him with this letter . then mr. lydcott stood up . sir g. wakeman . mr. lydcott , have you a copy of the lords records ? mr. lydcott . yes , it is . sir g. wakeman , pray what did mr. oates say to my lord chancelor in the house of lords ? l. c. j. you must have that which is proper evidence . you shall have all the fair dealing that can be , and all that can be admitted for your defence shall be . sir g. wakeman , my lord , i humbly thank you , i find it . l. c. j. ay , but this is now what the clerk writes down as minutes . 't is an hard construction to make this evidence . were you present when mr , oates was there and said this ? lydcott . no my lord , all i say is this , this is a copy of the record in the lord's house ▪ l. c. j. did mr . oates set his hand to that record ? lydcott , yes , in some places , 't is titus oates set in diverse places as his hand to examinations . l. c. j. but is mr . oates own hand set to the record ? lydcott , i know nothing of that ? l. c. j. this is the objection , it will be hard , that if a clerk takes the depositions of oates , or any one else , and takes them as near as he can , but he never subscribes it ; and you prove only 't is a copy of what the clerk wrote , that cannot be allowed as evidence . lydcott , 't is a copy in most places of what is under mr . relfs own hand . l. c. j. but you can't swear the clerk writ true ? lydcott , no , that i can't . l. c. j. it may be an entry of what the house of lords did upon the examination ; that is not evidence here . mr. j. pemberton , if you can produce any one that heard mr . oates give in his information , you say well . sir. g. wakeman , i believe there is a difference between the entry book , and the book of records ; and i hope you will look upon the book of the house of lords as the highest evidence , beyond any verbal averment , my life is in your hands , i ask you whether it be not so , or no ? l. c. j. north , if there be a record in any court of record , that such a man appeared in court , 't is an evidence that he was in court , and a record for it ; but when there is an examination in a court of record , these not passing the examination of that court , but being taken by the clerks , we always in evidence expect there should be some body to prove , that such an examination was sworn , and subscribed to . lord ch. j. have you any witnesses here , that were by , and heard what mr . oates did then depose , and can testifie what mr . oates said when he was called in , and particularly what answer he made to that single question of my lord chancellors , how he came to know it was your hand ? sir g. wakeman , i can bring none but these records , or the lords themselves , and i can't expect it from them . and that which they call a record , i am not able to judge whether it be a record or no. l. c. j. were there not others called with him into the lords house ? sir. g. wakeman , no , there were none but the lords themselves . l. c. j. you should have had the clerks here : that made the entry , or saw him set his hand to the examination . l. c. j. north , this is nothing , but as he sayes , a transcript out of the journal . lydcott , i believe it is written m●●t under mr. relfs own hand . there is a great deal of it that contains the whole n●●●tive that oates gave in . l. c. j. north , you desire to give in evidence what mr. oates said at the bar of the house of lords to what my lord chancellor asked him , if you have any witnesses that can prove it , they shall be heard . sir g. wakeman , my lord , i have no witnesses only the record . l. c. j. that is only a copy of a narrative . sir g. wakeman . if you will not allow it to be a record , i can't help it . mr. recorder , this is no part of the record of the house of lords , it can't be allow'd ▪ l. c. j. well , have you any other witnesses to any thing else ? sir g. wakeman , i desire you would examine sir philip lloyd once more . ( who was called , but answer not . ) mr. recorder , he is gone out of the court. l. c. j. well , what say the rest ? mr . corker , have you any witnesses in the first place ? corker , no , my lord. l. c. j. mr. marshal , have you any witnesses , answer that first ; before you enter upon your defence , you shall be heard afterwards . then sir philip lloyd came into court again . mr. recorder , sir george , here is sir philip lloyd , here now ; what would you ask him ? sir g. wakeman , sir philip lloyd , i desire to know concerning the last examination of mr . oates , and mr . bedloe before the council ; ( you were there present as i am informed ) pray will you tell what you know . sir philip lloyd , to what point sir ? sir g. wakeman , to their whole evidence . sir philip lloyd , i suppose what they have given in lately , they have acquainted the bench with already . it was some day this very month , but i would know what it is sir george would have me to speak to ? l. c. j. what was there relating to sir george wakeman ? l. c. j. north , but pray consider , whether it be a question fit to be asked of the clerk of the council , what was done in council without leave of the board . i don't think he is bound to answer the question . mr. just . pemberton , sir george , if you would ask him to any one particular question , it were something . sir g. wakeman , i have done with him ; i hope he will excuse me , i have put him to this trouble . l. c. j. then mr. marshal , have you any witnesses ? marshal , i cannot say i have any direct positive witnesses . lord chief justice , think not that you shall be concluded , we are not in hast , you shall have time to say what you will ; but if you would use any witnesses , call them . marshal , for the present i shall have no use of any . l. c. j. well , mr. rumley , have you any witnesses ? rumley , i think i have . l. c. j. i can't tell of any need you have of any , for there is but one witness against you . corker , but he desires that his witnesses may be heard , 't is but short . sir rob. sawyer , there is no need of it mr. rumley , we can't insist on it against you , you must be acquitted . mr. recorder , will he have his witnesses called ? if he will , he shall , though there is no need of it . rumley , no , my lord. l. c. j. then sir robert sawyer , would you say any thing more for the king , before the prisoners make their defence ? sir r. sawyer , my lord , there is one thing which i would have answered , that is , the variance between what mr. oats said before the council and what he says now , upòn the testimony of sir philip lloyd , whò says , that he gave no testimony of this letter , under sir george wakemans hand ; but being asked , whether he knew any thing of his own knowledge , he said , he had only met with a letter from white to f●●wick , wherein it was said , so much was proposed to , and accepted by sir george wakeman : and that he should then declare that he could say no more , and lifting up his hands affirm with a protestation he knew no mo●e . gentlemen , we hope to give you satisfaction in this ●atter , for it was after a long and tedious examination ; and we shall prove to you , that he was in great confusion , being almost tired out with examination , which is not impossible to happen to any man though of the strongest constitution and memory , after two nights waking , and continual hurrying up and down . we shall call sir thomas doleman to prove , that he was under great confusion , and that the king and council were so sensible of it , that some of them would have had him gone away a great while before he did go away , swear sir thomas doleman ( which was done . ) sir r. sowyer , you hear what hath been objected and said by sir philip lloyd , will you tell your knowledge of this matter ? sir thomas doleman , my lord , mr. oates did appear before the king and council , i think on the saturdays before which was michaelmas eve. the council sat long that morning , the council sat again in the afternoon , and mr. oates wa● employed that night i think to search after some jesuits who were then taken , and that was the work of that night . the council i think sat again on sunday in the afternoon , mr , oates was then examined , the council sat long , and at night he was sent abroad again to search the lodgings of several priests , and to find out their papers which he did seize upon , and one of the nights in that season was a very wet night ; he went either with a messenger or with a guard upon him . on monday morning the council sat again , and he was further examined , and went abroad ; and monday night mr. oates was in as feeble and weak a condition as ever i saw man in my life . and was very willing to have been dismissed for that time ; for he seem'd to be in very great weakness , and disorder ; so that i believe he was scarce able to give a good answer . sir r. sawyer , was that the time sir philip lloyd speaks of ? sir tho. doleman , i think he was called in on monday night . sir. george wakeman , i received the summons on saturday by a letter from sir robert southw●ll . sir tho. doleman , you were called in on monday night , the night before the king went to new-market . sir george wakeman , i appeared upon sunday , and was dismissed by sir philip lloyd , who came out and let me know that the king said , he would have the hearing of it himself the next day . sir tho. doleman , then sir , you were called in , and you gave your answer ; and the whole council was amazed at the manner of it : for you did not in my opinion , or in the opinion of several others , deny it so positively as one that was iunocent could , but used many great expressions of your own great fidelity and loyalty to the king , and your family , and of the services they had payd the crown , and did require satisfaction and reparation for the injury done to your honour . sir george wakeman , my lord , i will give you a brief account of it ; i leave it to you , whether i behaved my self i●l or no ; i confess , i think i might have behaved my self more submissively ; there was nothing of duty wanting in my mind , but i will give you an account of what i said verbatim . my lord chancellor told me , that i was accused of the blackest of crimes ; that i had undertaken to poison the king. i asked him who was my accuser , he pointed to mr. oates , and told me mr. oats was my accuser . says i , mr. oates , do you know me ? did you ever see me before ? mr. oates ●said no. why then said i , how come you to be my accuser . said he , i will tell you ; i was at st. omers , where there was a consult of the jesuits , at which mr. ashby the rector of the colledge at st. omers did preside ; and in that consult it was debated who was the fittèst person for that horrid undertaking of poisoning the king , and unanimously it was agreed upon at that consult , that you were ; sir george wakeman by name : and now he says it was debated here in england . then , my lord , said i to my lord chancellor , here is no proof , therefore i hope there is no need of any defence . said he , there is no smoak but there is some fire . my lord , said i , if you understand by that , there can be no accusation without some guilt , i should be sorry i should not understand both sacred and prophane history , better than to think so . then he pressed me to know what i could say for my self . said i , my lord , i come of a loyal family , my father hath suffered very much to the value of eighteen thousand pounds and more for the royal family . my brother raised a troop of horse for the king , and served him from the beginning of the war to the end . he was major to the marques of worcester , at worcester fight , and lost his life by the wounds he received in the kings service . as for my own part , said i , i travelled very young , and came over when ireton was lord mayor , and both by my religion , and my name , was suspected to be a favourer of the royal party , and therefore was imprisoned , & did not come out till i had given great security : and the second time i was committed , was , when i entred into a plot the only plot i was guilty of , i conspired with captain lucy , and several others to attempt something for his majesties restauration , when few durst appear for him . i wa 〈…〉 ized on in my bed ; there were several arms found in my apothecaries cellar , and we were both committed to prison ; and we should both have suffered death certainly if his majesties happy restoration had not prevented it . when my lord prest me still to say what i could say for my self , as to what was charged on me ; i told him , my lord , i am under the most foul and false accusation that ever innocent gentleman was , and i expect reparation ; and upon that they were offended , and i was bid to withdraw . and i added this beside , my lord , that there was not a family in england that was so much instrumental in his majesties restoration as that family was ; that collonel charles gifford was my near kinsman , so was collonel carlos ; and that the pendrels were menial servants to the family , and i hope they deserve some favour . lord chief just . what have you to say , sir george , in your present defence here . make what observations you will now , upon the testimony hath been given against you . sir george wakeman , my lord , i say this , if it had been allowed me , to make use of the records of the house of lords , it would have made all things so evident and clear ; as nothing can be more ; for then , when he was called to that bar , to give an account what he had declared to the house of commons concerning me , he gave an account of this letter . mr. just . pemb. sir george , you must not make mention any more of these things , that could not be given in evidence . sir g. wakeman , then my lord , i have no more to say . l. c. j. what say you mr. corker ? c●rker , my lord , i hope the court will not require that i should bring any particular evidence in confutation of what is here alledged against me ; for , before i came to this bar , i did not know any particular accusation that was against me ; and therefore i could not be ready to answer it , and ma●e my defence , or bring particular witnesses to evidence , and shew my innocency . besides , my lord , it is a known general maxim , that a positive assertion is as easie to be made , as to prove a negative , is oft-times hard , if not impossible . men may easily devise crimes , and frame accusations against innocent men in such a manner that the contrary cannot possibly be demonstrated . no mortal man can tell where he was , and what he did and said every day and hour of his whole life . therefore i think ; t is not only positive bare swearing , but 't is probable swearing , that must render a man guilty of a crime . otherwise my lord , it would be lawful , and in the power of oates and his companions here , to hang by turns , upon bare oath , all the innocent men in the whole nation , though never so innocent , and that for crimes never so ridiculous and absurd . and i say this further , he that swears against another , first , ought to be himself a credible witness : and then secondly , strengthened by probable circumstances ; circumstances that bring : a●ong with them so●e probable evidence dist 〈…〉 from the witnesses themselves : otherwise i think , that the party accused , without any proof of his side , ought to remain in the possesion of his own innocency . now i th 〈…〉 my lord , there will be never an one of these two necessary conditions to be found in the evidence against me ; for first , the witnesses against me , are persons that are , or at least formerly , have been of scandalous lives . lord chief just , you should prove it , before you say it . you shall have all things allowed you that are fit : but you must not heap up contumelies upon men un-proved , or call men names , when you have proved nothing against them . if you can prove any thing , of gods name do it ; prove them as fully as you can . corker , i do only say this , they have been reported , and owned by themselves , as men that have been of scandalous lives . l. c. j. if the jury know it of their own knowledge , i leave it to them ; but you have proved nothing . corker , well , my lord , but then in the next place , neither will the positive oaths of men formerly infamous , be any con●incing arguments of our guilt : and then next , as to the other circumstances that should render me guilty , mr. oates does not here make me guilty alone of this grand conspiracy ; but he involves the nobility , gentry , and the whole body of the catholicks in this treason . now my lord , i refer it to the judgment of the court , whether so many persons as he names , and these of such eminent quality , and of such considerable estates in their countries , persons settled under so good a king , in so peaceable a kingdom ; so quiet in condition ; men of good and vertuous lives , and unblemished conversations , before this 〈…〉 our should hazard their honours , their lives , their families , their bodies , their souls ; their all in such a design . l. c. j. what is this to your care ? corker , my l●rd if this be not probable , i hope i am free of the plot. lord chief just ▪ but what is this to your case ? pray hear , you are now making a sp 〈…〉 a●a●●st mr. oates and mr. 〈◊〉 ●hat they do accuse people of great honour and quality , he hath given no acc 〈…〉 against any as yet that you are to take notice of ▪ you ought to make use of 〈…〉 g as an argument to the jury , but of the evidence , that hath been given to the j●ry ▪ if you can make me of any thing , that mr. oates or mr. bedl●w hath said here to contradict them , or invalidate their testimony , you have said we 〈…〉 . but to ta●k of 〈◊〉 . a sto●y of accusing noblemen , and such like when there is nothing of that before you ; you must first prove what you wil infer from . corker , my lord this i take to be of ve●y great concern to my self , that since the truth of this evidence does de●end upon the certainty of the pl●● , and this pretended conspiracy against his sacred majesty , i● the●e be no such pl●● and conspiracy , and if by circumstances i can render ●t improbable , i hope the jury will take it into consideration . l. c. j. ay , ay i am of that opinion , if thou canst but satisfie us and the jury , that there is no plot , tho shalt be q●●tted by my consent . corker , i will , my lord , shew you the improbab●lity of it . l. c. j. ay , do but give us one probable argument , ( you being a learned man and a priest why we should believe there is no plot. corker , my lord , i would have endeavoured to have shewn you the improbability of it , but yet ● would not urge it , because it may not be so g●a●eful to your lordship . but to me 't is not probable , that so many honourable & vertuous persons should be involved in a plot so dangerous , so morrid and detestable in it self ; wherein my lord ▪ as he says , so many thousands of people and even a whole nation were to be overwhelmed : of which if a discovery had been made by any person , it would have prevented the utter ruine of so many millions . 't is not rational or probable , that such vast whole armies should be raised , and forreign nations concerned in the plot. all which , notwithstanding all the evidence that can be made out of this plot , is but only their positive swearing . l. c. j. just , now you made your objection , that it was a strange thing that such a design should be communicated to so many ; now you make it a wonder , why so few should know it , only oates and bedloe . your argument before was , that it was a wonderful thing , that so great a concern should be communicated to any one ; and now you wonder more , that none should know it but they two . corker , therefore my lord. i from thence argue thus , that since there is no other evidence , nor further proof of it then from mr. oates , and mr. bedloe , i infer there is no such thing at all . l. c. j. yes , as for your army , there is more than so ; do you remember what mr. dugdale and what mr. praunce say ? corker , yes , my lord , considering these persons , what they are , their vile oaths , and the incouragement they have met with , by such indearments and caresses , as they have found , their credit is not much to be weighed . now my lord , i apply to the accusation that is against my self . l. c. j. ay ay ▪ that is your best way , for it would have been an hard task for you to prove that there was no plot. we were in great expectation what arguments you would bring us for it . sir george wak-man , my lord , will you give me leave to observe one thing more to your lordship , and the court ; mr. oates does mention in his narrative of at least thirty or forty pages , and all this upon oath ( so he saith in the end of his narrative ) but i would observe , that there is not a letter dated in france or in the lowcountries , or received here , but he swears positively as to the date of it , and reception of it ; but now , when he comes to mention any thing wherein a mans life is concerned , he will not tie up himself to a moneth . l. c. j. yes , he does , and to part of a moneth . he tells you it was the beginning or middle , or latter end ; and he speaks punctually as to the twenty first of august . sir g. w. but in all his whole narrative , he speaks to a day . mr. recorder , as my lord says , he speaks punctually to the st . of august . and as to the letters , he took the date of them in his memorial . corker , my lord , i would only take notice , that at the first , mr. oates thought to take advantage of some words of mine at my ex●mination ; he told you , that i had gone into france , but that i denied it when i was examined before the justice of peace , my lord , i deny all this ; for the justice of peace examined me where i had lived — l. c. j. we have nothing of this matter here before us . m. j pemberton , you are to answer what he says now . corke● , 't is what mr. oates says now , for i knew nothing of it till now . now my lord , as to t'a● i say , i did not deny it before the justice of peace that examined me ; for i told him , i lived with a certain lady twelve years , till shee died ; and during that time , i never was beyond the sea but once , which was five years since , for the cure of a quartane ague that i had , and i went over to france ; othewise during all that time that i was with my lady , i did not go beyond sea. upon this , the justice began to ask me other questions ; whereupon my lord , i recollected my self , and said , sir , i told you i had not been beyond sea during the time i had been with my lady but that time , five years since ; but my lady being dead , i went over last summer in august to perfect the cure of that ague ; for i had it seven years , spring and fall . and this i told him of my self , without asking . the last summer i went over , and there i staid till two days before september ; therefore i did commit no mistakes in what i said , or used any cloke to cover it . now my lord , he says , i went to lamspring which is in the further end of germany . lord ch. just . he says , you said so . corker , pray ask him how he knows it ; he says by my letters : sure if this man were privy to those great conspiracies which he charges me to be a partner in , it is not probable but that i should tell him where i went ; and then if i did tell him so , i must go thither and back again in weeks time , which was morally impossible to do , to go thither and to return ; for , i was but six weeks out of town . l. ch. just . how you argue sir ? he says , you told him you went to lamspring ; say you , certainly i would tell him true , because he was engaged with me in conspiracies ; but this can't be true , because of the length of the way , is this a way of arguing ? may not you tell him , you go to one place , and indeed go to another ? corker , what reason or motive had i to tell him a lie ? lord c. ju. it is a hard matter for us to give an account of jesuits answers , even one to another . corker , i am not a jesuit , i wont say the least untruth to save my life . then as to my being president ( as he calls it ) of the congregation ; all the congregation , and all that know us , know that stapleton ( formerly chaplain to the queen ) is and hath been for twelve years ; president of that order . and i am confident that all catholicks , and most of the court , do likewise know it to be true ; and by consequence , it is likewise untrue . that there was an agreement made by the jesuits and benedictine monks when i was at paris , to which i was not privy , but could not go on till i was acquainted with it , and consented to it . now my lord , if i be not president of that order , that must , be a flam and a story . l. c. j. you say that , prove who is . co●ker , m : stapleton was , as 't is well known . l. c. j. call who you will to prove it , if you can . cork●r . h●re is one of the lay-brothers of the order . l. c. j. who is that ? corker , mr. rumley here . l. c. j. he cannot be a witness for you or against you at this tryal . cork●r , 〈◊〉 l●rd , since i did not know of it before , i could not bring any body . lord ch. ju● . you put it upon your selves . corker , my lord , i say then i never was at any consult where any such sum of money was proposed or agreed , nor was it requisite or necessary that i should be so much privy to it , for i was not superiour of the order , nor president of it , by reason of which my consen● should be necessary , or any such letter be writ to me or any such received 〈◊〉 and then my lord , dly . i must take notice again , he acc●ses me of being bishop of london , and that i did consent to this agreement of paying so many thousand pounds ; 〈◊〉 i were guilty of this , and likewise of contriving the kings death , and especially consenting to pickerings murther of the king , when that pickering was taken i should have been taken too , or i knowing my self guilty should have fled . l. c. j. you excepted against pickering and thought him not a convenient man , because he was one of your order . corker , i hope he does not positively say i consented to the kings death , he says indeed i knew something of it , now i was near him when he was taken . al the officers that came to take mr . pick●ing came to my chamber . mr oates sayes he was there at the takeing of pickeing ; if i were guilty of all these things being superior and master to this pickering , 't is a strange thing that he should neither know me nor own me , nor accuse me , nor take me , nor apprehend me untill almost a month after ; all which time i had my liberty ; but then takeing notice of my going down there , & haveing further information of ●e that i had lodged there he took me into his catalogue of bishops , and he came to take me . but if i had been guilty of these hainous things ; there is no reason but they should have app●ehended and taken me when pickering , and grove , and ireland and sir g. wak-man were taken . l. c. j. i will tell you what for that : if you were now arraigned for being a priest , you might well make use of that argument , that when they took pickering and grove , if they knew you to have been a priest they should have taken you too , and yet for all than you we●e a priest , you could not have denied it . but would it have been an argument because you were not then taken , you were not so ? so you might be in the plot and not be taken & t is no argument from your not being taken that you were not . corker . ●ay my lord , if he came to discover the p●otters it had been his duty to have taken me before if 〈◊〉 had been one in the plot . l. c. j. so it hath been his duty to have taken you as a priest . corke● 〈…〉 as , 〈◊〉 he sayes , equall in the same crime with pickering , and therefore he should have taken me ●hen he took him . l. c. j. ha●e you any thing more ? corker . beside my lord , i fi●d he undertook to tell the names of all those that were en●aged in this conspi●acy , but among them all my name is not , therefore 't is a new invention of his . l. c. j. that is not said here , you go off from what is said here . l. c. j. north. can you p●ove tha● ? 〈◊〉 first do it , and ●hen make your observations upon it , if you can prove what he said be●●re the lords by witnesses ; but otherwise you must not discourse upon what you have not proved . l. c. j. here is nothing of that before this j●●y . corker . i cannot prove it othe●wis● than by the 〈◊〉 . i desire it may be looked upon , and i refer it to the consideration of the 〈◊〉 w●ether i● he did say he did not know any thing else of any man whatsoeve● , but wha● he had then declared , and i am no● there accused ; whether this a cusation be now to be b●lieved ? l. c. j. that hath been answered already . mr. just . d●lbin . but it is not proved by them . c●●k●r . i leave it to the jury , whethe● they will believe it or no. ● . c. j. you say well , if you refer it to the jury let them consider it . corker . i say they ought to take it into their consideration , they are not rashly to give a verdict against me ; and gentlemen i believe i may refer it to your consciences , whether you do not know what i say to be true in this business ? l. c. j. mr. marshall what say you to it ? marshall . truly my lord , what i have to say for my self is this . about a month ago i was told the time of my tryal was at hand , and being then full of good hope , i did endeavour to provide for it , and i had a great confidence my lord that it would succeed ; but truly upon the ill success of the late tryals , either my hope or my heart failed me , and i did resolve to cast my self upon god and his providence , and however my silence might have bin interpreted , i did resolve with silence and submission to resign up my self to whatsoever your lordship and the worthy jury should be pleased to decree upon me . but my lord , since your lordship is pleased to fling forth some encouragement , and to hang out the white flagg of hope , for your lordship hath been pleased to use many gracious expressions , and so my lord upon this i shall contrary to my former determination now en●eavour to make defence for my life as well as i can : but my lord not being so well able to do it , or of so quick capacity as that learned and wise council which we have here of counsel for us , to wit , the honourable bench of judges , for upon inquiry why by law we were allowed no council , i was told that the whole bench of judges were alwayes of counsel for the prisoner , and indeed they look upon it as an obligation upon them as far as truth and justice will permit them to plead for us , now my lord with an humble heart i would suggest some heads of defence to this learned , wise and honourable council , and leave it to them to manage my cause for me according to t●uth and justice , which they are better able to do for me than i for my self . my lord , i have i thank god no spleen nor hatred in my heart against the worst of my enemies , nor shall be desirous of revenge , i leave them and their proceedings to god ; neither am i willing to charge mr . oates and mr . bedloe with worse than the necessity of my defence will occasion me to say of them . now my lord the best of men may be mistaken in a person , and if i prove mr , oates is mistaken in the person in me , then i charge mr . oa ▪ with no great crime , & yet make my own defence . now my lord , offer these things for that defence and i hope your lordship will appear my great advocate , and what i suggest in a few heads you will i hope put it into a method , and manage it better than i can my self . my lord , when i was first brought before mr. oates ( as truly all that were with me do know ) i carried my self with a great deal of courage and confi●ence , for i was certain that he did not know me , and i did believe it would be only my trouble of going thither and coming back again . lord ch. just . to go whither ? marshall . to vvestminster . and pray take notice of this : when i was first apprehended i was never sought for , nor named as a t●aitor in this business ; but coming accidentally into a house to ask for one where they were actually searching though i saw the constable at the dore and lights in the house yet i went in and asked if such an one was within . i think this confidence wi●l not rationally suppose me gu●lty , the house being under suspicion . l. c. j. here is no proof of all this ? marshall . all that were there know it : sir sir william waller , ●hich took me knows it . l. c. j. sir vvilliam vvaller , is this so ? sir william waller . my lord , when i cam to search the house i placed one at the door , and him i ordered to let whoever would come in , but no person whatsoever go out , when i was searching this person comes and knocks at the door , but did not know 〈◊〉 i suppose , of any person searching in the house ; for when the door was opened and he let in and understood it , he presently endeavoured to get away again . marshall . by your favour , my lord , i am very ioath to contradict what sir william vvaller says in any thing , i would willingly believe him a just person that would say nothing but the truth ; but god almighty is my witness that i never knocked , the door was open , and i came in of my own accord both in at the first and second doors this the constable will testifie . l. c. j. and you would not have gone away again if you could , would you ? marshal . i will give you better proof of it : while they were searching in an interior roem ( & this is well known by them all that were there ) i was in an outward room by my self this sir william waller knows , and when they came back and found me there , the constable and the rest wondered i was not gone . i was left alone by the door by my self , the outward door i found open , and there is another door which leads out into an alley , which any man can open in three minutes time , and i know how to do it . now i could not learn it since i was taken , for i have not been permitted to go abroad , but been under close confinement . but if it be worth the while , and you will give me leave to go there , i can shew you how 't is opened in less time than i can speak three words . lord chief just . would you have the jury stay here while you go and shew us the door ? if you have any witnesses to prove it , call them . come to the purpose , man. marshal . my lord , i say , if it were worth the while , that it might be made appear , that if i would go away i could , but i did not get away , but stayed with a great deal of confidence , my lord ; therefore i urge this to the point , that mr. oates is mistaken . after i had been there a while before mr. oates , sir william waller wished me to withdraw , and after i had been absent a while and came back again , sir william waller wished me to pluck off my periwig , and turn my back to him and mr. oat●s : i did not then well understand the meaning of it . but afterwards sir william waller out of his great civility came to see me at the gatehouse , and brought with him two very worthy persons , sir philip mathews and sir john cutler . sir philip mathews upon discourse hearing me declare that mr. oates was a perfect stranger to me , said , that mr. oates in testimony that he knew me , had given such a certain mark behind in my head i told sir ▪ philip matthews , if he pleased to pluck off my periwig , he should see whether there was any such mark or no ; but he being an extraordinary civil person told me , he would not give me the trouble . i desire mr. oates to declare now before-hand what that mark was behind my head , and if there be such a mark , 't is some evidence that his testimony is true ; but if there be no such , then it will appear to this honourable court and the jury , that he did not know me , but was mistaken in the man. l. c. j. i suppose he does not know you so much by the mark behind your head , as by that in your forehead . ma●shal . but why did he then speak of the mark behind my head ? mr. recorder , how does that appear , that he did give such a mark ? sir wil●iam waller , i shall give your lordship a short account what was done : when i brought him to mr. oates , i did desire indeed to see his periwig off , to see if there were any appearance of a shaven crown . after that i had pon● that , i caused him to withdraw till i had taken mr ▪ oates's examination upn oath , and after i had taken that , i desired him to come in again , and i read it to him and taxed him with i● ▪ to which he gave a general denial to every particular , and thereupon i committed him to the gatehouse . l , c. j. what is this to the business of the mark ? sir w. waller , i do not know of any mark ; but this i do know , that as soon as ev●● he came in , mr. oates called him by his name . marshall , i desire sir philip mathews may be called . mr. recorder , he is not here , what would you have with him ? marshall , to ask if he did not know in particular , that the mark was such a spot behind my head . hath he not been here to day ? mr. recorder , i can't tell that . lord ch. just . but he called you by your name before ever you plucked off your perriwig , so saith sir w. waller . marshall , that which i was to shew , if i could , and truly all my defence lyes upon it , is that mr. oates is a perfect stranger to me , and consequently hath nothing against me . now if mr. oates did give a false mark to know me by , and there is no such mark , i think 't is a proof that he is mistaken . l. c. j. sir w. waller sayes the contrary , he called you by your name , and there was no mark mentioned : but if you will suppose what you please , you may conclude what you list . marshall , sir w. waller plucked off my perriwig , and bid me turn my back to him . l. c. j. that was to see whether you were shaven or no. marshall , sir w. waller had not so little knowledge as to think that the priests go shaven here in england , where t is death for them , if they be discovered , besides my lord , it was put in the common news books which were dispersed abroad in the country , that it was a white lo●k behind . well if there be any thing of favour or inclination to mercy in the court i shall find it ; but if there be none , it will not succeed , though i spoke ten thousand times over , nay though it were spoken by the tongue of men and angels it would do me no good ; therefore i inforce it again to the jury to take notice of , that there was a particular mark given . lord ch. just . that you have not prov●d . marshall , my lord , i would beseech you to take notice of what every man knows ▪ and t is against reason to beli●ve that sir w. waller knowing the world so well as he is supposed to do , should think we went with shaven crowns in england . l. c. j. and therefore dr. oates must look for another mark must he , how does that appear ? marshall , all england know that those who go over to any seminary or cloister , never come over again to england till their hair be grown out , that it may be no mark or testimony that they are such person● . l. c. j. do you think al● mankind knows that . marshall , all that is rational does . l. c. j. well , you hear what sir w. waller says . marshall , i always looked upon sir w ▪ waller as a very learned upright perso●● , and did ●●●y upon what he should testifie for my defence , and he knows when dr. oates brought in his first testimony against me , i did beg that what ●e sa●d should be written down by him , said sir w. waller it sh●ll not be written do●n , 〈…〉 you to remember what he says , now i hope sir w. waller as an honest and worthy gentleman will keep his word , and i desire him to do it as he will answer it before god at the great tribunal . l. c. j. ask him what you will. you adjure him and yet you wont ask him . marshall , now my lord , i le tell you how mr. oates came to know my name ( which is another proof that he is a stranger to me . ) wh●● i came first in , i asked mr. oates if he knew me , and looking seriously upon me , he asked me what my name was . now we knowing no more of a mans thoughts but what his words discover , it may seem by that very question that mr. oates was a perfect stranger to me , now when i told him my name was marshall , he was pleased to answer , you are called marsh . but my lord , i should consider that which hath been before offered to your lordship , but that i do not much insist upon , that if mr. oates had a commission to search for priests and traitors , he was as well bound to tell you i was a priest as a traitor , that is an argument for me i say . if he had a commission to apprehend priests , i conceive if he knew us to be priests , he should by force of such a commission have seised upon us . l. c. j. he needed no commission to do that , he did search to find out traitors . marshall , he heard us particularly named , looks upon us , goes away , denies that he knows us , gives us leave to sleep out our sleep , and if we would to be gone . therefore 't is without any likelihood or probability that he had any thing to say against us . l. c. j. you have not proved one word of all this . marshall , he owned it himself , that he had searched the savoy for traitors , and did not take us . i speak this out of his own mouth , therefore it is incredible , and i hope the jury will take notice of it . he was searching for traitors and knowing me to be a notorious traitor as he would have me to be , that he should find me in bed , have his majesties officers with me , and not seize upon me . mr. j. pemberton , it does not appear to us , you have not proved it . l. c. j. sir w. waller , did he say first do you know me , and then oates ask his name ? sir william waller , i speak ●olemnly as in the presence of god , there was not one word of all this . corker , i beseech you may i speak one word ? l. c. j. have you done mr. marshall . marshall , truly my lord , i am astonished , i protest and confess before god i am astonished . there is mr. gill the constable who owned this , and promised to be here to attest it , for there was a dispute about it between dr. oates and me : for said i presently , if you took me in bed and knew me to be a traytor why did you not seize me he answered me again expresly before sir w. waller , i had no commission then to seize you : but said i , you acknowledge i was then a conspirator , and such your commission was to seize . you might have declared to the officers you knew me to be a traytor , and have bid them take charge of m● : t is impossible that you should so well know it and not do it sure . l. c. j. was there any such thing as this sir w. waller . sir. w. waller . really my lord , i do not remember any thing of it . lord ch. j. mr. marshall call your witnesses . marshall , 〈◊〉 mr. gill the constable here , he owned it . i think i had as good mak● an end , i may leave it here , for what i shall say i find will be to little purpose . l. c. j. you do not prove what you affirm . marshall , my lord , i do not go as mr. oates and mr. bedloe do , who bring no circumstance of probability or likelihood , they only say they were such a time amongst such and such persons , and such and such things were agreed , but shew no probab●lity of it . but i instance in such things as do carry a probability in themselves , and i name those that were by . l. c. j. and have no proof of it in the world . and what you call sir w. waller for , he says the contrary , there was no such thing . marshall , i say my lord , what he says is to my great astonishment . do you rememb●r sir w. waller this , that mr. oates said there , when he was asked if he law me last summer , i saw you not only in august , but in june and july . sir w. waller , i remember something of that . marshall , i humbly thank you sir for acknowledging that . l. c. j. what use do you make of that ? marshall , i shall make use of that . the dispute was so eminent betwixt us that it was impossible to forget it . l. c. j. well , have you done mr. marshall ? marshall , no my lord , tho i had as good hold my peace . i could not have witnesses to disprove mr. oates in particulars of time and place , because i could not foresee what time or place he would name . my lord , i had witnesses here at the time of my last tryal to prove and swear if they might be admitted , that i was here neither in june , nor july or august , but spent some months at a place called farnborough in warwickshire . l. c. j. can you prove this ? marshall , i can prove that i had such as would have proved it then . now my lord this is that i say , if ▪ the court be inclined to any favour or mercy : life being a thing of such concern , i hope some little stop may be allowed to have sometime to bring such people , but if there be no inclination to mercy , it would be the same thing if the proof were here . l. c. j. the court will do you all justice here , and that is their mercy ▪ marshall , i am confident ▪ i shall have great justice done me , i would not have said one word in my defence if i did not believe so , i took heart by what your lordship had said , & i have already done that which i thought most material for it . i have urged first the false mark that he gave to know me by . and then his taking me in bed and disowning to know me , besides mr. oates hath been positive in his testimony about the th of august , i could not now have witnesses to disprove that , because i knew it not before , but i can have several witnesses to prove that i had then witnesses to prove it , sufficient witnesses from farnborough who were sure and certain that i was that very day there , and would instance in some particular reasons why i was there that day . and then these witnesses will swear that i was never from thence for three mouths at any distance but twice at a neighbours house , and they can tell the places where i was then . l. c. j. you come and tell us what other folks could tell , why have you not them here ? can the july take notice of this . marshall , i hope you will not throw away my life , when in days time i could 〈◊〉 witnesses to prove it . l. c. j. then we must throw away the lives of the jury , for they must be kept fasting all those days till they give in their verdict ; for they must be shut up t●●l then . marshall . my lord , with your leave , there have been those that have been upon their tryals , and sent back to prison before the jury have given a verdict , and after tried agai● . l. c. j. north , ay , if they be discharged quite of you . lord ch. just . i tell you the jury must be kept together close , till they give their verdict . marshall . the jury was not kept up when mr. whitebread and mr . fenwick were tryed , and they were afterwards tryed again . lord ch. just . the jury were wholly discharged of them . marshall . if you have any regard of my life you may discharge them of me , lord ch. just . truly this is as reasonable as any thing you have offered . marshall . if your lordship believe what i say is true , you throw away my life unless you grant me this time , i should be a very infamous man if i did not prove it then ▪ l. c. j. if the jury believe it i am satisfied . mar. my lord , i should then come full of shame , if i did not prove what i say , therefore i hope the court will allow me time to prove what i affirm , that that particular day , & the day before & the day after i was in the countrey , & stirr'd not . and then as to the day before the assumption which he charges upon me , & the day after , i can bring witnesse ▪ to prove i was those days at another house almost mile off london , so there is nothing in all that is said against me by mr . oats which comes to be determinative & positive in his testimony , but i can disprove it if time be allowed me , but if that cannot , i can bring such proof as can testifie , that i had before those that could evidence it . corker ▪ i told your lordship i think , that the constables and other persons that came there to take pickering , said they knew nothing of me , and had nothing to say to me . your lordship tells me this i ought to prove . i must confess i could not expect that , when there were so many , an hundred people at least , that all those people coming in i should be put to prove it . but here is a servant that was in the house then , that will tell you the same , that will attest they said they had nothing to say to me . mr. just . pemberton . call any of your witnesses that you have . mr. just . dolben . mr , corker , you remember that the last time you were here at the bar , you desired time because you had not your witnesses , it is now above a month ago , and therefore you have no reason to say your witnesses are not ready . let us see them , that we may see you did not abuse us , mr recorder . who were the persons that were th●n at tunbridge ? c●rker . i tell you si●cerely my lord , i did not know what they would say , but then i did take notice when my accusation was read against me , that there was a time mentioned of the th . of april that i conspired the k●lling of the king. now i could prove the contrary of that i thought , for i did remember , and so my friends know very well , that always in the spring time i go once or twice , must commonly about miles out of town to take the air. so my lord , from that observation i did really bel●eve i was actually there at that time , & from this be●ief i did then tell your lordship , that i thought i cou●d bring witnesses that would provel was at that place then . according to your lor●ships order i sent for the gentlewoman that kept the house , and she coming up i asked her , mistress said i , can you tell when i was at ▪ tunbridge ; said she i believe you were there about or near april , but that is not , the thing said i ▪ i aske you ▪ can you positively say that it was either before or after the th . can you give me any determinate circumstance of it . she could not swear nor durst what day i was there exactly , then said i go back again , for i resolved to die in my innocency without proof , rather then my witnesses should speak what was false or doubtfull , marshall , i desire that one thomas summer may be called , he was the man that went down to ●etch up the witnesses from farnborough . mr. recorder , what is your witness mr . corker . corker . my witness 's name is ellen rigby ( who stood up ) lord ch. just . what is it you ask her ? corker , i desire she may be asked , whether she knows that i was in the house when the search was in the savoy when mr . pickering was taken ; and whether then they cha●ged me , or said i was a person that they had nothing at all to do with . marshall . and me the same . l. c. j. do you hear the question ? mr. corker , was not i in the savoy when pickering was taken ? marshall . and i ? rigby . yes , you were both in bed then . corker , are you ready to swear it , if my lord will permit you ? righby , yes . and the company that came in never asked for you , but when they saw you , said , they had nothing to do with you . lord ch. just . who said so . rigby . the company that came and searched the house for pickering . lord ch. just . was mr . oates there ? rigby . yes my lord mr . oates was there . l. c. j. did he say that he had nothing to say to them ? rigby . several of them did say so and he among them . they asked me who were in the house ▪ i told them several . they said they had nothing to do with any but with mr. pickering . l. c. j. north. who did you tell were in the house ? rigby . i told them there was pickering , marshal , he●kett , corker , smaydon the porter and his wife , two children , &c. corker , now 't is incredible he shou●d search for traytors , and as he says , know us to be such , and should not ask for us : nay , when he saw us , leave us there , and never bid the officer secure us . mr. just . pembert●n . who did ask you the question ? rigby . there were five or six , mr. oates and mr. bedloe ▪ corker , i desire to know this of you , have you not heard all along that m● . stapleton is president of the benedictines , and how long he hath been so , for she was house-keeper . marshal , who is president of the benedictines ? rigby , mr. stapleton . corker , how long hath he been so ? rigby , four years and a quarter , for any thing i know to the contrary . l. c. j. in his absence , who was ? righby , i know not who . l. c. j. did not corker . officate ? righby , never in his life . l. c. j. do you know who did ? rigby , i can tell he did not . corker . pray ask her if she knows of any consult of the jesuits in the benedictine convent ? l. c. j. how should she know that ? was she one ? corker , because there can none come to the house , but she must entertain them , there was no other servant at all but she . marshall , now my lord , since she is here , let her see mr. oates and mr . bed●oe ; ask her whether ever she saw them in the house in her life ? rigby , i saw mr. oates in the house ; ●e came a begging to mr. pickering for charity l. c. j. what was the time ? rigby , this summer was twelvemouth : and mr . pickering bid me shut the door , and never let that man come in again . marshall . that was in the very heat of the plot , the very nick of time when he was employed to carry on the conspiracy , as he says ; and that then we should suffer him to be in such necessity , and sent away with a flea in his ear , when he could gain such advantages by discovering us : is it likely that we would trust him with the whole plot , and yet suffer him to want ? i appeal to your lordship and the jury whether that be probable . then sumner appeared and stood up . l. c. j. what say you to him ? marshall ▪ i desire he may be asked whether he does not know that here were witnesses to testifie i was then at farnborough ? lord ch. just . that is not a question to be asked , what another body can swear . marshall . he was sent down , my lord , to fetch the witnesses up . l. c. j. well to satisfie you , we will ask the question , though it be improper ; were you sent down for witnessss ? sumner , yes my lord , l. c. j. why do not they come ? sumner , they did come . l. c. j. why are they not here ? the last sessions was adjourned particularly to a certain day , and you knew when you were to be tried . mr. recorder . for this very reason , that all might take notice of it , it was adjourned to the th . day at this place . marshall , your lordship does suppose we have a better purse then we have . would you have them leave their employments , and come up , and be at great charges ? 't is not in the capacity of every one to endure it ? l. c. j. what would you have us to do in this case ? marshall . what is but reasonable , give me but three or four days time , and i can have my witnesses up . mr. j. dolb. i pray ask them whether they were not told of the time of their tryal ? l. c. j. why did not you send for them before , when you knew what day it was to be ? mr. just . dolben , you knew as much before as you do now . if you did not , what did you send for them up for then , more than now ? corker . there was no certainty at all of the time when we should be tryed , we were told it was near , but not the very day ; some said the . some the . some the th . some , not at all , mr. recorder , you must not say so ; for notice was publickly given here that it should not be till the . and the sessions was adjourned till then . marshall ▪ i was told it would be two or three days after last term . i confess , god almighty hath been pleased to give me a long imprisonment to prepare for my last close . i do not fear death though it should appear in far more frightful shapes , than that we may be like to suffer ▪ so my lord , it is not so much a concernedness for my own life , as for the honour and justice of the court , that i plead for a respit to . have witnesses that may positively and particularly disprove the testimony of mr . oates and all the world will think it an hard case when i do attest and call to witness such as have a great probability to prove what i say to be true ; when i can have such a numerous train of witnesses to prove that i was that particular day threescore miles out of london , and would positively swear it , if permitted . it will be hard , & will , i fear , draw an heavy censure upon this honourable court , if some time be not allowed . l , c. j. it cannot be allowed you , for then we must tye up the jury , and make them 〈…〉 marshall , you may discharge them of me . l. c. j. we cannot do it now . mr. just ▪ pemberton . there is no reason for it now , for you had time for your witnesses before . what do you come here to make a great harangue about witnesses which you had , and did not bring them . l. c. j , did you know they would come to prove , to any day ? ma. i know they could prove such a day . l. c , j. why then were they not here ? marshall . pray , my lord , give me leave . i hope i shall not speak more than is reasonable and just , and then i care not how it succeeds . every judge is as much obliged to follow his conscience , as any formality in law. l. c. j. pray teach your own disciples don't teach us ; you come and talk here what regard we are to have to our own consciences , as if we did not know that better than ●ny papist or priest in the world . marshall , i suppose that , and 't is rational too . and i do suppose that this bench is infinitely just and merciful , and upon that supposition i plead . then if there be great reason to believe that i can disprove mr . oates in his positive testimony , then there is great reason to believe that i can save my life . and if there be reason to believe i can save my life , i suppose there will be more regard to this , than to any formality of law. be pleased to ask him , whether he were not to fetch witnesses that could attest this . l. c. j. what can you say ? sumner . i went down into the country for witnesses . l. c. j. why did you not bring them up again●● this time ? sum. i had no order for this time . mar. we did not know when we should be tryed , cl. of the peace . my lord , i did tell the messenger when the sessions was . l. c. j. did the officers here acquaint you when the sessions was , sumner . i had order from capt. richardson , at first , i did ask leave to go down to fetch his witnesses ; says capt. richardson , you have order to do what he shall direct , to provide him his witness●● , that was for the last , not for this . l. c. j. how far were the witnesses off ? sumner . theescore miles . l. c. j. why , you have had notice long enough of your tryals , to get up witnesses three●ore miles . mr. recorder , capt. richardson , did not you tell the prisoners when their tryals would be ? mr. justice dolben . they had all notice of the sessions by the adjournment , and should have provided for it . marsh . but that i humbly offer , is this , whether you will believe i can have such capt. richardson , ever since the last sessions they have all of them had the permission of any people to come to them in order to the preparing for their tryals . l. c. j. as when ? capt. richardson , as for this sessions . l. c. j. first you did know that the sessions did begin on wednesday ▪ if you had prepared your selves against wednesday ▪ you had been delayed but for two days . marshal . but how could i prepare witnesses for that which i did not know would be testified against me ? l. c. j. why did you prepare them for the last tryal ? why , had you not the same witnesses you had then ? marsh . because it was upon somewhat he had said upon my taking ▪ that he saw me in ▪ june and july , i did provide witnesses for it . mr. just . pemb. he ho●ds to the very day he said first , and this is but plain trifling● l. c. j. truly , if the merit of your cause be no better than such weak a●●e●tions , 〈◊〉 defence is but very poor ▪ m●r. but that i humbly offer is this , whether you believe i can have such witnesses , & therefore stay till they be sent for . mr. j. dolb , we have no reason to believe you . mr. just . windham , we have no reason to believe you , when you have had time to prove it , and have not got them . l. c. j. why were they not here now ? marsh . my lord , i do give you a double reason . then , my lord , i offer this , that my name is in no list , paper , nor narrative that ever was put forth ; and if i had been guilty , as he says , would not he have named me amongst the other conspirators ? l. c. j. no , i think he should not , it would have given you notice , and too much opportunity to have gone away . mar. he gave me leave , when he left me in my bed . l. c. j. but yet for all that it does not prove your innocency . all people that are guilty , don't run away for it , for you have abundance of priest-holes , and hiding-holes . well , have you any more witnesses ? if you have , call them . corker , call alice broadhead [ but she did not presently appear , ] then i desire mrs. eliz shelden may be called ; [ who being in the gallery , answered and came down . ] mar. i desire to know whether she knows who is president of the benedictine monks ? l. c. j. who is president of the benedictines , mistress ? sheldon , mr. stapleton . l. c. j. how many years hath he been ? sheldon , a great many years , my lord , to my knowledge . l. c. j. how many ? sheldon , four or five years . mr. recorder , where is dr. oat● ? call him . l. c. j. but if he were absent , did not mr. corker officiate in his place ? sheldon , never my lord. corker , mr. stayleton was actually at paris when i was there , and therefore i could not officiate in his stead ; there is another that can testifie the same , that is , ali●● broadhead [ who appeared then ; ] pray ask her the same question . l. c. j. who his president of the benedictines ? broadhead , mr. stapleton , i have known him for many years , and there hath not been for a great many years any other . corker , then i do desire that i may observe this , that mr. oats doth seem to accuse me positively of nothing , but only of consenting to the benedictines contribution of l which he says they could not do without my leave , because i was their president ; but i have brought three witnesses which say , and are ●eady to swear , that mr. stapleton is president , was so these many years , and i never was so in my life . mr. recorder , here is doctor oates again now . but he was not examined . l. c. j. have you done now , all three ? sir g. wak●man , i say , my lord , i find that it was imputed to me , at least as a sin of omission , that when i was before the council , i did not s●fficiently detest , and abominate , and abhor this crime that is laid to my charge . i now detest , abhor , and abominate the fact charged on me . i call god to witness , i never was in any consultation about it in my life , i never received any bi● for any money upon this account , nor did i ever receive any money . l. c. j. had no● you two thousand pound : sir g. wak●man , no my lord , i wish i may never enter into the kingdom of heaven , if i received one farthing for any such thing co●ker , he says , that i was employed in distributing moneys ; and i profess before god , i never distributed any money upon such account , all that i had was an annual an●●ity which i gave among● the poor . i protest before god , i never in my life did deliver or hold it as a matter of faith or commendable doctrine , that it was lawful for the promoting of the catholick religion , to murder the king , or destroy my country . and i renounce and detest it from the bottom of my soul . and this is all can be expected from a good christian upon that account ; and i hope the jury will have no prejudice against me for that ; and neither pope or any breathing upon earth can dispense with me from that obligation . marshall . and if no door can be opened for a merciful sentence upon any consideration offered by the living ; at the loud cries of the dying , i hope there m●● and all the earnest vows , and all those solemn protestations of innocency by such as were lately executed for the crimes we stand here charged with , left behind them as sacred testimonies of their loyalty and unviolated faith to the king. and i beg leave to put before the eyes of this honourable court , and this whole assembly , this landskip of horror , wherein may be seen those caves of darkness , tho●e baths of glowing sulphur such men must be eternally judged to be condemned unto , if what they then spoke had not the characters of the fairest truth found instamped upon it . now if a right survey be taken of this landskip , and it be well observed what these men so solemnly signed & sealed to with their last breath , it must be confessed they either conspired finally to damn their own souls , or were not conspirators against the king , nor were they guilty of what was charged upon them . present content , where the enjoyment is like to continue , works with a strong influence upon humane nature , and chains it fast to the present world . but , my lord , with the approach of death , reformation of conscience does offer to advance , and we do observe those who have lived a very ill life , frequently to make a good end , but , my lord , it is a thing scarce ever heard of or known , that those who have lived all their lives well , should die ill ▪ nor can such as were looked upon while they lived as persons of much integrity , great candor of spirit , and unquestionable truth in all their attestations , dying should become prophane to blasphemy , become irreligio●s even to sacriledge , and false even to the worst of a●heism . my lord ▪ this cannot readily be believed , or easily imagined ; nor will be , though it be possible ; and yet all that wil● not believe this , must own an innocency ▪ where guilt is so strongly suppos●d . and if there be great cause to doubt whether those that were ●ately executed and were supposed to be leaders in this conspiracy , were guilty upon the consideration of those solemn dying protestations they have made to the contrary : i humbly conceive it may be much more rationally doubted whether others brought in only by the by , as i am ▪ as a letter carrier , and only as marginal notes of the great conspirators may not be wholly innocent . now my lord , if no credit be to be given to the protestations of men dying , that have ever been judged sober and just ; how can faith be reposed in the testimony of such living persons as know no god nor goodness ? and if the reputed just man at the very point of death can be judged rationally false in his protestations , though death be in his eyes , and hell threatning to in 〈◊〉 him ; may not ●e , my lord , who hath owned himself a v●●lain in print , be thought false in his testimo●y , while preferment tickles him , ●●●ards march before him , and ambition b●ckons to him , which he greedily ▪ follows , though god and conscience tell him , t is unjust . england is become now a mournful theater , upon which ●●ch a tragedy is acted , as turns the eyes of all europe towards it ; and the blood which hath been already spilt , hath found a channel to convey it even to the remotest parts of the world . and though it inspires different breasts with different resentments , yet it may speak a language that none who are friends of england will be willing to understand . our present transact●●ns here are the present discourse and entertainment of foreign nations ; and without all doubt will be chronicled and subjected to● censure of e●s●ing ages . now ▪ my lord , i have great reason to believe , that not any one of those honourable persons that now fit judges over us , would be willing to have their names writ in any characters , but those of a just moderation of a profound integrity , of an imp●rial justice , and of a gracious clemency . and though we would not be all thought to be well-wishers to the roman catholick religion , yet we would be all thought friends to re●igion ; and though we exclaim against idolatry and new principles of faith , yet we all stand up for old christianity ; whereas if the testimony of living impety he applauded and admitted of , and the cries of dying honesty sc●ffed at and rejected , what will become of old christianity ? and if any voice , cry or protestation of dying men may pass for truth , and obtain belief , where is now our new conspiracy ? the question now seems to come to this , the belief of christianity now in roman catholicks , and the appearance of their innocency , are so fast linked together by those solemn vows and protestations of their innocency made by the late executed persons , that no man can take up arms against the latter , but must proclaim war against the former , nor can our innocency bleed ; but our christianity must needs by the same dart be wounded . nor can any tutelar hand stretch it self forth . lord. ch. just . north , you speak ad faciendum populum , and should not be interrupted , but only i think you lash out a little too much . marshall i speak this to add the testimony and solemn vows of the dying to what we say living for our own defence . and i desired they may be put in both together , and weighed in the scales of an impartial judgement . now my lord , i say , the question seems not so much whether roman catholicks are conspirators , as whether indeed they be christians . nor is it the great doubt now whether they designed to kill the king , but whether they believe there is a god. for whoever grants this last ▪ the belief of a god , of a heaven , and an hell , and considers what asseverations they made at their death , what solemn protestations they insisted upon , does with the self same breath proclaim them innocent . mr. j. pemberton , but mr. marshall , will you go on to affront the court in this manner , to vouch for the truth of their speeches which they made at the gallows , and affirm them innocent after they have been found guilty , and executed according to law ? marshal , my lord , i do not avouch them innocent , i only desire there may be consideration had , and that the words of such dying men may be thought of . if they did believe a god and a judgement-seat that they were going to , could they be innocent and christians too ? l. c. j. i was loth to interrupt you because you are upon your lives , and because 't is fit you should have as much indulgence as can be allowed . your defence hath been very mean i tell you before hand ; your cause looked much better before you spok●● a word in your own defence , so wisely have you managed it . mr. recorder , but really for your particular part mr. marshall , you abound too much in your flowers of rhetorick which are all to no purpose . marshall , i hoped it would be no offence to insist — l. c. j. but i will tell you , and i 'le he heard as well as you , sir ; because of the protestations of these men , which you make a stir about . if you had a religion that deserved the name of a religion , if you were not made up of equivocation and lying , if you had not indulgences and dispensations for it , if to kill kings might not be meritorious , if this were not printed and owned , if your popes and all your great men had not avowed this , you had said something ; but if you can have absolutions either for 〈…〉 made saints as coleman is supposed to be there is an end of all your arguments . there is a god , you say , and you think we shall go to that god because he hath given us the power , we can let our selves in & turn the key upon hereticks . so that if they kill a king , and do all the wickedness they can devise , they shall go to heaven at last : for you have a trick , either you can directly pardon the killing of a king , or if you excommunicate him he is no king , and so you may kill him if it be for the advancement of religion . but it will be in vain for you or any priest in england to deny this , because we know you print it and publickly own it , and no body was ever yet punished for any such doctrine as this . therefore all your doings being accompanied with such equivocations and arts as your religion is made up of , 't is not any of your rhetorick can make you be believed , i do believe it is possible for an atheist to be a papist , but 't is hardly possible for a knowing christian to be a christian and a papist . 't is hardly possible for any man of understanding , setting aside the prejudices of education to be a papist & a true christian , because your doctrines do contradict the foundations of christianity . your doctrine is a doctrine of blood & cruelty , christs doctrine is a law of mercy , simplicity , gentleness , meekness and obedience ; but you have nothing but all the pride that ever a pope can usurp over princes : and you are fill'd with pride , and mad till you come again into the possession of the tyranny which you once exercised here : in so much that 't is strange to me , but that princes abroad think you more conducing to their ●olitick interest , else sure they could not endure such spiritual tyranny to lord it ●ver their souls and their dominions . therefore never bragg of your religion , for it 〈◊〉 a soul one , and so contrary to christ ; that t is easier to believe any thing , than to be●leve an understanding man may be a papist . well sir , if you have any more to say , ●peak it . you have provoked me to this ; and indeed i ought to do it , because you ●ave so much reflected on the justice of the court : but if you have any thing to say in your defence , speak it , or to your own particular case . as for your religion , we ●now what it is , and what merciful men you are : and if we look into the bottom of ●ou , we know what you were ever since queen maries dayes : and if we look into ●he gun-powder treason , we know how honest you are in your oaths , and what truth there is in your words , and that to blow up king , lords and commons , is with you a mercifull act , and a sign of a candid religion ; but that is all a story with you : or it is easier for you to believe that a saint after her head is cut off , did go three miles with her head in her hand to the place where she would be buried , than that there was gunpowder treason ( at which the people gave a shout . ) l. c. j. north ; you must not meddle any more with the speeches of those that dyed . marshall , i did not intend , my lord , to call any thing of justice in question . l. c. j. what do you think we will be imposed upon in this manner ? perhaps you have tricks enough to gull your own party , but you have not to deceive protestants ; ●hey can look through all your arts ; nay , i never saw such men of weak parts , as your priests generally are ; so that i wonder , you should have any disciples , but silly women , or men without learning . marshall , if we were guilty of this conspiracy , we should gull only our selves . l. c. j. go you on with one harrangue , i warrant you i will give you another ; you ●all not be hindred to say any thing that is p●rtinent ; but this is not at all so . we have a bench of aldermen have more wit than your conclave , and a lord may●● , that is as infallible as your pope : have you any thing more to say for your selves ? 〈…〉 know our religion better than our selves ; for i know not of any such doctrines owned amongst us . l. c. j. no i then i believe you have not read your own books ; i suppose that your busines is not now to read , but to seduce silly vvomen , or weaker men . what , do'nt you publish them all over the world ? is there any index expurgatorius , into which you have put these doctrines ? surely you know not any thing , if you know not this . l. c. j. north , if you have any thing more to say in the proper defence of your tryal , pray speak it now . corker , as to those damnable doctrines , we profess our selves innocent of them . i desire that the jury may not go upon such a prejudice , that i entertain such principles of religion , as matters of my faith . they are horrid crimes , i protest against them , and own them not , i desire the jury to take notice of it . marshall . i have this further to offer to your lordship , that mr. bedloe owned before the lords , that he knew no more to be guilty then he had declared , and among all those i am not named , and this was a month of six weeks before i was taken . mr. just . pemberton . there is no such thing at all proved here , or given in evidence , and therefore why do you insist upon it ? marshall . in this i appeal to the knowledge of your lordship : and if you know it , i hope you will be pleased to acquaint the jury with it . l. ch. just . i do not know for my own particular what answer was made , i was 〈◊〉 in the house , nor do i know it . judges . none of us know it . marshal , i desire the w●● thy jury to take notice , that among all the persons named , there is no such name mentioned as mine . mr. just . pemberton . there is no such thing proved here . marsha●l . they deny all the lords records . l. c. j. well , have you done ? look you gent. ● the jury — marshall , i desire but one word , th●se things i have insisted upon as far as can for my self ; but the main matter i rely'd upon , was , that mr. oats did not know m● neither as to my calling , conversation , words nor actions , he can bring no person , 〈◊〉 nor woman , that ever saw him in my company , nor took notice of our meeting together . nor bedloe neither ; he can name no place where he saw me , none but the savoy , against which no proof can be found . and then at the searching of the house , i desire the jury to cake notice , that at that time he disowned us , and said he did not know us . a sufficient rational cause cannot be given , why he should say now he knows me , and did not then take me . mr. just . pemberton . you have said all this before . marshall . then my lord , for a conclusion , i have been told , and i will onely desire the jury to take notice of it , that every jury that finds a man guilty of death upon the testimony of witnesses that come in against him , do take it solemnly upon their consciences , that what such witnesses swear is true . l. ch. just . that they believe they swear true ; for we have no infal●llibility with us . t is one thing to say t is true , and another thing to say we believe it is true . looke you , the jury may give a verdict that is false , and yet go according to their consciences . do you understand that priests mr just . pemberton . you need not teach the jury what they are to do . mar. but considering in case an oath be false , & the jury have reason to doubt what the prisoners say in their own defence , upon wh● they hear or have learnt of their own knowledge , if they sin i such doubt grounded upon that double matter , then they are in great danger to bring the fault to their own doors , and make the crime of perjury their own . mr. just . pemb. what do you go over things again and again ? l. c. j. all this signifies but little , if you had popery here , you would get but little by it . we should hardly part with our peter pence for all your speeches . we all know what things are , 't is not a parcel of words patcht thus together will do your business . marshal . i wish all thoughts were as open fac'd as ours are . l. c. j. look you gentlemen of the jury , here are four prisoners ; as to one of them , that is rumley , the truth of it is , there is but one witness against him ; and by the law there ought to be two ; so i cannot say , but you ought to discharge him : we do not find , that there is testimony sufficient according to the law to condemn him , and therefore you ought to acquit him . as to the rest , here is sir george wakeman , mr. corker , and mr. marshall ; there hath been two sorts of evidence given , i will repeat them as well as i can , and as short as i can . there hath been a general evidence , and a particular evidence : there was a general evidence given by mr. dugdale of the plot in general , and by mr. prance , and something of intimation by mr. jennison . these of dugdale , prance and jennison do not mention so much as the names of the three gentlemen that are up in their lives ; but i le tell you why it was necessary , and answers a great objection that they seem to make : for you are to believe men say they , and to believe men upon probable circumstances , something to guide you besides the positiveness of an oath , and that is well enough said . now here is something besides and that is the plot ; that there was a conspiracy to introduce popery by the likeliest means , which was to kill the king ; and that such people as these men were to do it , now that there was such a general design to do it is a circumstantial evidence ( as to these men , i call it so . ) and these are circumstances which may answer the objection they make , when they ●ay , you are not to give credit to positive oaths , without any thing to govern you by ; for you have this to govern you by besides the oath that there was a plot. the testimon● of mr. jennison does go more particularly to the business of ireland which i would observe by the way for the sake of that gentleman that stands so much upon the innocency of those men , and would have them to be believed upon their own assertions , because he says they dare not dye with a lye in their mouths . i believe it is notorious enough , mr. jennison that comes here is a man of quality , and one against whom there is no objection , and he is justified by one or two more . he says he saw mr. ireland the th of august , when he to his death took upon him to avert he was then in staffordshire , and brought several of his own religion who would outface it to the court that he kept them company so many days and was in the country all the while . there was a maid before this that came and testified that she saw ireland & saw him at his own door in aug. but this gentleman comes and proves it upon him more particularly , and tells you when the day of the week and of the month that he was with him at his own lodging , that night he came from windsor , that he was pulling off his boots , and pretended to come post from staffordshire , & so that he was in staffordshire is true , because he came th●●e post but he hath always constantly denied that he was here , & that may serve for the integrity even of their dying oaths . and you are not going according to your own doctrine so immediately to hell , i hope you suppose a purgatory where you may be purged from such peccadellos as this of dying with a lye in your mouths . as for the testimony of the particular evidence , first against sir g. wakeman mr. oates says , he saw a letter subscribed george wakeman , and it was writ to mr. ashby , and therein among other expressions was this particular , that the queen would assist him to kill the king. he was asked how he knew it was his hand , he said he had never seen his hand before , but afterwards he saw him ●●iting ( as he thinks writing ) in a writing posture , and there he looked upon that p●●per when he was gone from it while it was wet , and that character to his thinking was just the character of the letter . now i must observe this to you . first , supposing it to be true , yet it is some what hard for a man that had never known a mans hand in his life , to see a hand to day , and sometime after to come and see his hand to a bill of physick , and to recollect the character so much backward as to know this is that or that mans hand that i saw before . 't is one thing to know hands we are used to , but 't is another thing if we see a hand that we never saw before in our lives , and then by reflection at another time , and by comparison of hands to say this is the same , that is hard , but that is supposing it to be true . sir g. wakem . as all people will that are accused , does deny the fact , & says there was no such thing . against him besides he says he saw in a book that the jesuit priests kept among them of their transactions and affairs , he saw in harcourts chamber a book wherein was written . this day ( and there was a certain day in aug. named , but he cannot tell what day ) ( this day ) agreed with sir g. w , for l . to which he consented , and under was written , received l . part of l . by order of mr. coleman , george wakeman . this he says he saw , and he believes that to be the very same hand that he saw before , so it is by a comparison of hands . he does not charge sir g. w. to the best of my memory , with any positive thing of his own knowledg more than as i tell you of this matter . sir r. saw. yes my lord , he says he saw his commission . l. c. j. indeed he does say he saw a commission in his hands to be physitian gene-ral of the army that was to be raised . and that he denied l , and would have . the truth i leave with you gentlemen . look you gent. we will shew our selves what we ought to do , let them be as they will , we would not to prevent all their plots , let them be as big as they can make them ) shed one drop of innocent blood. therefore i would have you in all these gentlemens cases consider seriously , and weigh truly the circumstances , and the probability of things charged upon them . there is an additional evidence against sir george walkeman by bedloe : he says he saw him have a note for l . which was said came from the queen , there were discourses of doubtfull words , but whether they be plain enough to satisfie your consciences , when men are upon their lives , i leave to you . that sir g. wakeman , should say , are you ready for me , why am i dril'd on thus in a matter of this concern . this he would have to imploy the poisoning of the king , but there is but one thing that sounds any thing plain to the matter , and that was this said he , if they miss ( speaking of killing the king ) if they miss at windsor , and you miss your way , then it shall be done at new-market . this he did swear directly , and then sir george wakeman repli'd he would be ready . now if you believe this , then there are two witnesses against sir g. wakeman , for the matter of the bill alone would do nothing . but when he says he saw such a bill it must be for something , and if he did say so , if they miss killing him at windsor , and you miss your way we will do it at new-market , and he replyed , i will be ready , the thing is made plain ; i leave it to you , and this is all the evidence against sir george wakeman as i remember . i hope my brothers if they remember more will repeat it to you . i cannot undertake to repeat every word , i remember so much as is material , and my brothers i hope will help me out in what they have better observed . as to mr. corker , oates says that he saw a letter under his hand , that is , his name i suppose was to it , wherein he consented to the raising the l . which was to be raised out of the benedict●nes estates , and was in order to the carrying on of this plot. i do not find that he does prove that he did know mr. corkers hand . and he says of him further , he was their president , and so it was necessary to have his consent for the raising 〈…〉 the murdering of the king ; for said he , he is a man that waits at the altar , and methinks you should choose some fitter person . for that , says mr. corker , which he says , that i was president , i was not president , and he makes it necessary for me to set my hand , because i being president it was supposed it could not be done without me , and dr. oates does intend such a thing by his inforcing of it too : but he does produce to you two or three witnesses that do say mr. stapelton hath been president for or years ; and said he , if i were not president , what needs all this ado about my consent , so he contradicts him in that particular that he was not president , and it is not only a bare immaterial thing , because his being president made his hand more necessary to the raising the l . and for that matter of his saying that he did except against pickering , and they might have chose another , he does not charge him to be actually at the consultation , but he says he knew of it , because he said pickering was not a fit man to do it . and he said they had better choose a lay-man . he proves no fact but only these words . and mr. bedloe , he speaks against him , and what he says is rather less then what oates says . for t is that he talked with le fever the priest about the plot in general words . it may be , he was talking with some body else , and yet he could hear that they talked together in general about it , that is all against him . against mr. marshall t is rather less then against corker , that is that he did consent to the l . that should be raised among the benedictins , he being a benedictine too , and that he took exceptions against pickering as corker did , that it was not convenient to employ him in killing the king. and this is that oates says , and that he was a carrier of letters up and down , and a factor that way . and bedloe says , that he knew that he carried letters , and was at the consult where they were read and answered , and when they asked him where , he said at the benedictine convent in the savoy , and names in particular a letter to sir francis radcliffe , and that there was a discourse concerning the plot in his hearing . they say for themselves , they cannot answer any more then by circumstances , t is a very strange thing , if dr. oates knew this of us , why did not he take us before ? and says sir. g. wakeman , why did not he accuse me of this letter that he talks of before the king and council . he makes an answer which to me indeed is a very faint one , as if he were so weak and tired that he could not speak any word farther . when the council asked sir george wakeman , what he had to say for himself , and he behaved himself ruggedly , they call for oates again ; what , said they do you know any thing of your own knowledge ? no said he , god forbid , i know nothing more as sir philip lloyd says , and as the matter speaks : for if he had charged him that he had seen that letter , the lords would infallibly have committed him . if he had but said , i saw a letter with his name to it , which by the character i believe was his , because i saw his writing elsewhere . and t is wonderfull to me , i don't know if a man be never so faint , could not he say , i saw a letter under his hand , as well as i knew nothing more of him , there are as few words in one , as in the other . if he had said i beg your lo●ships or his majesties pardon , i am so weak i cannot recollect my self , it had been something , but to make a great protestation that he knew nothing of him . this is that that is said by sir philip lloyd on his behalf . these other gent. say , that oates did not know them , and the woman does say that she did tell them when they came to search , that corker and marshall were there , and dr. oates and they said , they had nothing to do with any but pickering . ●hey make answer now and said , that they had no commission to take any but him . 〈…〉 . prehend them . for what defence they make about what talk was had at the gate-house , t is all contradicted by sir william waller . and indeed if it were possible , they have almost undone themselves in their own defences , by making weak observations and insisting upon trivial things ; improper for the court to hear , and impertinent for them to urge . but i deal faithfully with you , i will discharge my own conscience to you . it lies upon the oaths of these two men . tho there was a plot in general , proved , yet that does not affect these men in particular , but was only used to answer that objection , that it should not be believed upon positive swearing , hand over head , without something else . here was something else , the plot in general , and their being priests is another circumstance to me , who are mad to bring in popery , and would do any thing to get their tyranny again established amongst us . and there is more then probable evidence of that i assure you . sir tho. doleman , did indeed say mr. oates way very weak , so that he was in great confusion , and scare able to stand , weigh it with you how you it will , but to me t is no answer . i tell you plainly , i think , a man could not be so weak , but he could have said he saw a letter under his hand . it was as short as he could make an answer , and t is strange that he should go and make protestation that he knew nothing . and so i pray you weigh it well , let us not be so amazed and frighted with the noise of plots , as to take away any mans life without any reasonable evidence . it you are satisfied with the oaths of these two men so . i have observed to you what objections they make so themselves , and those objections are materiall . what sir george wakman says about his not accusing him before the council , and what these men say that he did not apprehend them . and t is very strange they should have so little knowledge , and so little acquaintance with oates and bedloe , and so great a matter as they speak should be true . and t is well enough observed that he was a begging there ; 't is very much that such a man should know of such a great designe on foot , and they would use him in that manner . these are the things that i remember worthy of your consideration . these mens bloods are at stake , and your souls and mine , and our oaths and consciences are at stake . & therefore never care what the world says , follow your conscience ; if you are satisfied these men swear true , you will do well to find them guilty , & they deserve to die for it . if you are unsatisfied upon these things put together , & they do weigh with you that they have not said true , you will do well to acquit them . mr. bed. my lord , my evidence is not right sum'd up . l. c. just . i know not by what authority this man speaks . c. cr. make way for the jury there , who keeps the jury . then an officer was sworn to keep the jury , the judges went off the bench , leaving mr. recorder and some justices to take the verdict . and after , about an h●urs space the jury returned , and the foreman coming up to the table , spoke thus to mr. recorder . foreman . sir , the gentlemen of the jury desire to know , whether they may not finde the prisoners guilty of misprision of treason . mr. recorder . no , you must either convict them of high treason , or acquit them . foreman . then take a verdict . cl. c. gentlemen , answer to your names , ralph hawtrey . mr. hawtrey . here , &c cl. of cr. gentlemen , are you all agreed of your verdict ? omnes . yes . cl. of cr. who shall say for you ? omnes . foreman . cl. of cr. sir g. vva. hold up thy hand ( which he did . ) look upon the prisoner , how say you ? is he guilty of the high treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty , foreman . not guilty . cap. richardson . down on your knees . sir geoage vvakeman . god bless the king , and the honourable bench. and in like manner were the other three acquitted ▪ then after the verdict 〈◊〉 the court did adjourn 〈…〉 the afternoon . a true and perfect narrative of the tryal and acquitment of mr. john satterthwayt at the assizes held at kingston, march being accused for firing the house of mr. peter delanoy, dyer in southwark / written in his own hand, in a letter to his friend in london. satterthwayt, john. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true and perfect narrative of the tryal and acquitment of mr. john satterthwayt at the assizes held at kingston, march being accused for firing the house of mr. peter delanoy, dyer in southwark / written in his own hand, in a letter to his friend in london. satterthwayt, john. p. s.n., [london? : ?] reproduction of original in hungtington library. caption title. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng delanoy, peter. trials (arson) -- england -- early works to . great britain -- politics and government -- - . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true and perfect narrative of the tryal and acquitment of mr. john satterthwayt . at the assizes held at kingston , march . being accused for firing the house of mr. peter delanoy , dyer in southwark . written with his own hand , in a letter to his friend in london . kingston , march . . sir , i presume it 's no news to you that i was apprehended and committed to the marshalsea , for the wicked and felonious entring into , and setting on fire , the house and dye-house of peter delanoy of southwark , dyer , it being made publick to the world , by our infallible , unerring , protestant news-monger , and therefore i forbore declaring to you my case , or giving any account of my self about it , enduring my heavy irons , my melancholy imprisonment , and all other my reproachful sufferings quietly , till god was pleased to deal with me according to my innocency . and i should still with the same resolution have forborn troubling you , were it not to vindicate my self from the scandals , that infamous tongues asperse me withal , concerning the contriving of the said fire , together with the honourable profession of a souldier , the imployment i follow . and therefore i hope you 'l please to peruse patiently these , and pardon me for them . in the first place i do declare , and i take god to be my witness therein , that i am a protestant , of the church of england , that i was born and educated so , and never knew my self any other religion , nor any of my relations to be of the church of rome , although my accuser swore me a roman catholick . i do in the second place profess before almighty god , that knows the truth of all things , i never saw , spoke to , or drank with the maid that accused me , till after i was apprehended nor did i euer see , or hear of mr. delanoy , or his house , or what trade he was , until such time i was brought before the justice no , nor was i in southwark of a month before i was taken , or thereabouts . i am a gentleman you know , and a souldier , though ●t be an imployment obnoxious to a sort of people in this age , who are dis-satisfied that his majesty has any guard for the security of his person ▪ i wish my condition were capable of disposing of l. i should put it to some better use than so hellish and internal design . it may seem incredible , that a person of my parts , and profession too should be imploy'd in , or that ( if it were true ) i should treat with an unknown woman , about so weighty an affair ; or if it were so , what should induce me , next morning and next door , ( as i am informed it is ) to come , where i had committed such a fact over ●ight ? now , sir , i am acquitted , and i do nevertheless solemnly protest ; as i hope for mercy at the last day , i am as innocent of that crime as the child that is yet unborn , else may i never see god in his throne , which , with the following particulars of my case , i hope may satisfie you . and if you , the moderate , and the doubtful , be but satisfied , i value not my misfortunes ; let the envious and rude rabble think what they please , for 't is not easie to perswade them to believe the truth , when they are once possest with the contrary ; nevertheless , if any of them will be so critically curious , as to enquire into any one of the particulars of my case , they will find what i have therein roughly set down , will plainly appear to be a great truth . i shall say very little as to the woman that swore against me ; only give me leave to tell you , that those who are acquainted with her , know well what she is , and such as do not , may easily be satisfied , if they please , by several of her late masters , who have been to visit her in prison ; i pray god forgive her , for i do from my soul , yet while i live , i shall never forget her , nor the bear at the bridge-foot , where i was so bit for nothing , i may live to see h●s bear run , except he keep him strongly chained , he 's not so rich as i am innocent . but now as to my trial : i was this morning indicted , convicted , arraigned , and tryed , with margaret clark , my accuser , both by one indictment , to which i pleaded not guilty , ( as god knows i might without sinning , safely do ) and so did my yoke-mate ; there were witnesses sworn , two men , and two women , of little credit , and less fashion ; the men wanted matter to swear , and especially a peevish waterman ; they proved the fire ; that was evident before , by the maids own confessing , ( though she pleaded not guilty now ) which was sufficient for her turn ; the two women , the other witnesses , one of them very briskly swore , she had oft seen me in southwark , and particularly on thursday before the fire broke out , but could not say , she had either seen me in delanoy's house , or in his maids company ; the other witness swore , she saw a man go on sunday into delanoy's house in a red coat , and come out again , but did not see his face , nor could she say i was the person ; very angry the witnesses were they could swear no better ; how my persecutors were pleased , i leave that to themselves , believing they had rather hanged me innocent , than the maid guilty , judging so , from what words a giddy brain , passionate coxcomb , an apprentice to delanoy , spoke in court , who thought he had more wit than my judge , and more honesty than my jury , and would have me damned before i was condemned ; i am so much a christian , as not to wish him harm , but the contrary , desiring his soul may find favour from the great judge of assize in the other , for certain i am , his face will find but little from the lesser judges of this world. the maid her self was examined ; she denied impudently what she had before confessed , as to her self , but stood firmly to her first principles ; as to my particular , i was the person , and like cataline , resolved to add greater evils to those she had before committed ; but she being arraigned , her evidence was of no effect . the stress lying chiefly on thursday , jan. . and sunday , feb. some of my witnesses were examined , and then the judge proceeded to give the jury their charge . in fine , they brought her in guilty , and me otherwise , a favour i could not have expected from many southwark juries , i thank this kindly for 〈◊〉 i am contented , but i hope to have no further experience of their favours ; and now i only wait for my discharge , not doubting in a day or two to be with you . there were many prisoners , and several trials of sundry natures , which i shall not trouble you with ; only those of three gentlemen , seamour , alias herring , smith , and sherby ; two of them are cast in five indictments , and the third in four indictments , for robbery and felony on the high-way : with which i conclude my tedious epistle , and leave you to peruse my case truly stated with a copy of my commitment . a breviate of the case of mr. john satterthwayt , one of his royal highness's troop of his majesties guards , committed to the prison of the marshalsea , for the wicked and felonious entring into , and setting on fire the house and dye-house of peter delanoy , on sunday night , the first of feb. last , . . isabella satterthwayt his mother , and john satterthwayt of grays-inne , his unkle . to prove his education was in the protestant , and not in the romish religion . . his certificate out of the petty-bag office. to prove his receiving the sacrament , and taking the several oaths of allegiance , supremacy , and test . . his officers and fellow-souldiers . to give an account of his life and conversation , and what sort of people he usually kept company and convers'd withall . . mr. john griffith , mr. dovenport , mr. fish , mr. huddleston , and mr. whatton gentlemen of his majesties guard. to prove they with the said mr. satterthwayt all met at the pay-table at whitehall , on thursday jan. . and that about three of the clock in the afternoon , they went to the one tun tavern in st. martins-lane . . the said five gentlemen , the master of the house , his drawer , the constable , and part of his watch. to prove him at the said one tun from about three of the clock as aforesaid on thursday afternoon , till about three of the clock on friday morning , jan. . . four of the said gentlemen , &c. to prove he never was out of their company from friday morning at three of the clock , till about two in the afternoon , during which time they were not out of their quarters in and about pickadilly . . mr. bagley and his wife , in vine-street in st. giles . to prove he came to their house on friday about two of the clock in the afternoon , that he staid and slept there till about eight at night , and then went home to his mothers house next door . . his said mother , and mary hills her lodger . to prove he came home about eight of the clock as aforesaid , went to bed , rose not till next morning about nine of the clock jan. . when he was called by an officer to go to the guard. . the said officer , and most of the guard. to prove his coming accordingly to the guard , staid there till three of the clock in the afternoon , the usual time of relief , and then came to the cock and bottle in new-street in covent-garden . . lieut griffith , mr. jahn griffith , mr. fish , mr. davenport , mr. huddleston , mr. cardiffe , the master & mistress of the house , &c. to prove he came thither about four of the clock on saturday afternoon aforesaid , staid there in their company in the said house till about nine of the clock at night , at which time the said company parted . . tho. spanton his farrier , and mr. john griffith . to prove he called on his said farrier betwixt nine and ten of the clock on saturday night aforesaid , and ordered the said farrier to come to the swan-inne in castle-street , and he should be paid his bill . . mr. philips master of the said swan , his wife , mr. john griffith that lay with him , and the said farrier . to prove he came into the swan-inne on saturday night about ten of the clock as aforesaid , paid both the landlady and farrier , lay there all night , rose not out of bed till sunday afternoon . that about four of the clock he spoke to the landlord to get him a fowl for supper , which was accordingly fetch'd about the time people came from evening prayer ; that he supp'd there , and in fine stirr'd not abroad all day , till about ten of the clock at night , being sunday febr. . . . his said mother , & the said mary hills . to prove he came home about half an hour past ten at night on sunday febr. . as aforesaid , that he went to bed , and rose not till about nine on monday morning , febr. . . . mrs. h. the person he was to meet , and mrs. p. &c. to prove they had some time before , viz. jan. in the afternoon , resolved on a meeting in southwark ; but till that morning the hour and place was not appointed ; the said mrs. h. then sending a maid to him , to let him know she was going into southwark , received back this answer , that he would presently meet her at the bear at the bridge-foot . . his said mother , &c. to prove he stirr'd not out of doors on monday , till about ten of the clock in the morning . . mr. davenport . to prove he called to speak with him about eleven on monday aforesaid , when his mother told him he was gone out about an hour before . surry ss . to the keepers of the common goal of the said county . whereas john satterthwayt , whom we herewith send you , is charged upon oath before us , by one margaret clark , a late servant to peter delanoy , of southwark , dyer , for the wicked and felonious entring into , and setting on fire the house and dye-house of the said peter delanoy , on sunday last past : these are therefore in his majesties name to require you , to receive the said john satterthwayt into your custody , and him to keep safe , until he shall be thence delivered by due course of law. given under our hands and seals the d . day of feb. ann. dom. . ja. reading . jo. freeman . vera copia . wonderfull newes from the north. or, a true relation of the sad and grievous torments, inflicted upon the bodies of three children of mr. george muschamp, late of the county of northumberland, by witch-craft: and how miraculously it pleased god to strengthen them, and to deliver them: as also the prosecution of the sayd witches, as by oaths, and their own confessions will appear, and by the indictment found by the jury against one of them, at the sessions of the peace held at alnwick, the . day of april, . novemb. . . imprimatur, john dovvname. moore, mary, fl. . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing m thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) wonderfull newes from the north. or, a true relation of the sad and grievous torments, inflicted upon the bodies of three children of mr. george muschamp, late of the county of northumberland, by witch-craft: and how miraculously it pleased god to strengthen them, and to deliver them: as also the prosecution of the sayd witches, as by oaths, and their own confessions will appear, and by the indictment found by the jury against one of them, at the sessions of the peace held at alnwick, the . day of april, . novemb. . . imprimatur, john dovvname. moore, mary, fl. . [ ], p. printed by t.h. and are to be sold by richard harper, at his shop in smithfield, london : . preface signed: mary moore. annotation on thomason copy: "decemb. .". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng witchcraft -- england -- early works to . trials (witchcraft) -- england -- alnwick -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no wonderfull newes from the north. or, a true relation of the sad and grievous torments, inflicted upon the bodies of three children: of mr. moore, mary b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion wonderfull news from the north . or , a true relation of the sad and grievovs torments , inflicted upon the bodies of three children of mr. george muschamp , late of the county of northumberland , by witch-craft : and how miraculously it pleased god to strengthen them , and to deliver them : as also the prosecution of the sayd witches , as by oaths , and their own confessions will appear , and by the indictment found by the jury against one of them , at the sessions of the peace held at alnwick , the . day of april , . novemb. . . imprimatur , john dovvname . london , printed by t. h. and are to be sold by richard harper , at his shop in smithfield , . a preface to the reader . courteous reader : with a sad heart i present unto thee the ensuing discourse , not out of malice to the person of any , but to shew the great mercy of almighty god , and to magnifie his glorious name for preservation of me and my children , and for delivering us from those extreame torments and miseries wherewith by diabolicall meanes we have beene afflicted . in prosecution of which sad story , i have delivered nothing but truth , as is testified by very many people of great ranke and quality , as also by divines , phisitians , and numbers of other people , who have beene sad spectators of our miseries . beseeching the almighty god to deliver thee and all good christian people from the like miseries , and torments , which have happened unto me , and my poore innocent children . thine , mary moore . a briefe description of mr. george muschamps childrens unnaturall tryalls , from the yeare of our lord , . vntill candlemas , . the time of their releasement . first in harvest , some two moneths before michaelmas , about four or five of the clock in the afternoone , mistris margaret muschamp suddainely fell into a great trance , her mother being frighted , called company , and with much adoe recovered her ; as soone as the childe looked up , cryed out , deare mother , weepe not for me ; for i have seene a happy sight , and heard a blessed sound ; for the lord hath loved my poore soule , that he hath caused his blessed trumpet to sound in my eares , and hath sent two blessed angels to receive my sinfull soule . o weepe not for me , but rejoyce , that the lord should have such respect to so sinfull a wretch as i am , as to send his heavenly angels to receive my sinfull soule , with many other divine expressions : calling good mother send for my deare brother , and honest mr. huet , perhaps the lord will give me leave to see them ; that faithfull man may helpe my soule forward in praying with me , and for me ; for we know the prayers of the faithfull are very powerfull with the lord . they b●●●g three miles off , in the holy island , were sent for , and with what speed might be , came ; she all this while in her heavenly rapture , uttering such words as were admirable to the beholders , her brother and the minister came to her , which heard her expresse much joy . the minister exhorting her , to whom she gave such satisfaction , that he blesled god in shewing such mercy to a childe of eleaven yeares old . all that night she continued , apprehending these heavenly visions , the minister praying with her , and for her , as she desired him . after she fell into a little rest , and when she awaked , remembred not any thing she had sayd or done . witnesses to this first , mr. huet , minister . mrs. kenady , her two brothers , and two sisters , with her mother . george robinson , and his wife . katherine grame . odnel selby , and his wife . margaret dikson , with divers others in the house then present . after this she continued well till candlemas . on candlemas eve , betwixt the houres of one and two in the afternoone , being the sabboth , her mother with most of her servants being at church , onely her two brothers , and two sisters with her , she was suddainely striken with a great deale of torment , called for a little beere , but ere they could come with it , the use of her tongue was gone , with all her limbs , pressing to vomit , and such torments , that no eyes could looke on her without compassion : her mother comming home with a sad heart , beheld her childe , using what meanes could be , but no ease , till eleaven or twelve a clock at night she fell into a slumber and slept till six in the morning ; as soon as berwick gates were opened her mother sent for phisitions , both of soule and body , with the lady selby , colonell fenvvicks widow , with other friends , who forth with came to behold this sad fight , with many others that came to the childe waking out of her sle●pe , which was without present torment , but had lost the use of both limbs , tongue , stomacke , onely smiled on them , and signed , that we could understand she had all her other senses very perfect , but would let nothing come within her mouth of any nourishment , for her jawes were almost closed : physitians gave their advice , with other friends ; and what could be had , was gotten for her : but her signes from the beginning were , away with these doctors drugs , god had layd it on her , and god would take it off her . she beg'd that mr. balsom , mr. strother , and mr. huet , wou'd be her doctors in their earnest prayers to the lord for her ; for she was confident there was no helpe for her , but from heaven : yet her mother to her great expences neglected no lawfull meanes that could be used . about . a clock she had a tormenting fit before all the company ; but it was not above an houre : but from that time till whitson eve , being . weekes , she slept as well in the nights , as any one , but as soone as she awaked in the morning begun her torment : first three or foure houres every day , encreasing till it came to eight houres , every houre a severall torment , such strong cruell ones that cannot be exprest , as many with weping eyes beheld it , that ministers would pray by her till the sad object would make them leave her to the lord , expecting nothing but death . sir william selby his lady , the countesse lendrik , the lady haggarston , with many others , would look , till sorrow would mak them forbeare : yet as soone as these torments were over , the child would instantly smile , and make signes she felt no paine at all : solying quietly till the next morning , onely we wet her lips with a little milke and water ; for nothing she would let come within her jawes ; but would smile and shew her armes and breast , and say god fed her with angels food : for truely all the . weekes fast , did not appeare to diminish her fatnesse or favour any thing at all . on whitson eve in the morning she had eight hours bitter torment , in the afternoone her mother being abroad , left her husbands brothers daughter mrs elizabeth muschamp with her , who made signes to her to carry her into the garden , in her mothers absence ; her cozen casting a mintle about her , gave her her desire , and sate in the garden with her on her knee , who in the bringing downe had so little strength in her neck , that her head hung wagging downe ; but was not set a quarter of an houre , till shewing some signes to her cozen , bolted off her knce , ran thrice about the garden , expressing a shrill voyce , but did not speake presently : she that was brought down in this sad condition came up staires on her owne legs , in her cozens hands : captaine falset , his wife and his daughter being then in the house , did behold this miraculous mercy of the lord done to this child : her mother being at berwick , three miles off , was sent for , and imparted her joyfulnesse unto the lady selby , and good mr. balsome , whose prayers with the rest ( as the child sayd ) had prevailed with god for mercy . when her mother came home , her daughter which she left in so bad a condition , came with her cloathes on , down to the gate , calling mother , mother welcome home . now the mothers joy may be imagined , but not expressed ; desiring her mother presently to send many thanks to mr. balsome , and mr. strother for that the lord had answered their prayers for her . the next day being the sabbath , she beg'd on her mother to returne thanks to the glorious god , who never failed any that trusted in him , and her self would ride into the holy iland and joyne in thanks and prayers to the lord , with mr. huet , sir thomas tempest , captaine shaft , with the rest of the parish that feared god ; she by gods power did it the next thursday , being a lecture in berwick , her selfe , and with mr. balsome and mr. strother gave glory to the lord for his never forgotten mercy to her ; though her flesh did not diminish , yet her strength was but weake , and her stomack by degrees came to her again , and for seven or eight weeks was very well : then her mother removed to berwick , where the garison being kept , the discharge of a musket would cause her to fall into very great extasies , being there severall times for hours space , she would be suddenly taken with her former torments . for three weeks space she lost her stomack , and all her limbs , and of a sudden recoverd all again , not remembring what she had either done or suffered . to avoyd this inconvenience , her mother removed from berwick , and carried her in one of these sad conditions one mile off berwick , where she continued seven weekes more in these afflictions . her eldest brother upon s. johns day at night in the christmas following betwixt the houres of . and . was taken exceedingly ill , that it was thought he would not live : the next morning he was a little eased of his extremity and pain , but both his stomack and the use of his legs taken from him , so that he was forced to have help to put on his cloathes , was lifted into a chaire where he sat all day long , but could neither eate nor drinke any thing , but a little milke or water , or sowre milke . he consumed away to nothing , yet not heart-sicke ; but would reason , talke and laugh with any friend as if nothing ayled him . his mother now being prest downe with sorrow , sent to the doctors both at newcastle . durham , and edenborough , not doubting or suspecting any unnaturall disease ; the physitians all agreed by the course of nature he could not live a month to an end , which was sad newes to his sorrowfull mother , god knowes . after two or three weekes she had another fit of her former torments ▪ after she had lyen three or foure weekes in her extremity , begun , and cryed the rogue , never till then , offering a word in her torments , but as if some were striking at her ; she seemed to save her selfe with hands and bedcloaths from blowes , deciphering a wretched creature as we all after knew by her description : sometimes he would fight with her in the shape of a dragon , of a bear , a horse , or cow : many fancies she did expresse ; and good things , she sayd , fought for her , and still got the better of him : the enemies weapons were a club , a staffe , a sword , and dagger ; her good things got them all , as she thought , and after the wretch , she thought , got the dagger againe . now when she fixt her eyes upon her objects , no action you could use would move either eyes or gesture , till she came out of her fits , then did not remember any thing she either did or sayd : after a while she would make her hand goe on her brest , as if she would write , with her eyes fixt on her object ; they layd paper on her brest , and put a p●n with inke in her hand , and she not moving her eyes , writ , jo hu. do. swo . have beene the death of one deare friend , consume another , and torment mee ; whilst she was writing these words , she was blowne up ready to burst , shrinking with her head , as if she feared blowes : then would she be drawne , as in convulsion fits , till she got that writing from them that had it , and either burne it in the fire , or chew it in her mouth , till it could not be discerned . let any one snatch the paper from her and hide it as private as he could , she would have gone to the party and place , still in torment till she got it , and either burne it or chewed it , that none could discerne one word she had wrote , then immediately she would have ease : thus for a moneth or six weekes , every other day , with severall torments , and such like expressions continued ; her good things , as she called them came still and saved her from her enemies . these words written , and her other expressions , caused her sad m●ther to have very contradictive thoughts : so that one day her neece muschamp that had been her companion in most of these sad conditions , being troubled to thinke what this childs writing should mean ; sayd to her aunt , there is one that i have ever feared since my cousin margaret was first afflicted ; but i dare not name her whom i have suspected : her aunt answers , and onely one i suspect : and these letters make me tremble to thinke on it ; but the lord pardon our thoughts , if we thinke amisse : so revealing our thoughts one to another , and pitcht both on dorothy svvinovv . her neece saith , mrs. svvinovv came to see the childe when you were away , and spake harshly of you , and besides the childes looking on her , which she never did on any else , makes me feare her : her aunt answered , if she could doe me hurt , and not her owne soule , i feare her more then any else , but that cannot bee ; so lord pardon us , if we thinke amisse , and let us not speake any further of her . this childes mothers occasions called her to newcastle , which journey was not pleasant , leaving so sad a house at home , and her childes writing , and her neeces thoughts , and her owne , made her very sad , that her servant wondering to see such a change , presumed to aske the cause of it she knowing her servant to be trusty , revealed the suspected party to him , no living soule being by ; her occasions being dispatched returned home . but in her absence her daughter had beene quite distracted , run up and downe with a staffe in her hand , saying she would kill the rogue : in this rage she apprehended her good things ( for so she called them ) in the likenesse of a dove , and a partridge , and begun and sung , judgo and revenge my cause o lord : next , how long wilt thou forget me lord ; shall i never be remembred ? and concluded , behold and have regard , ye servants of the lord ; and so came out of her fit , not remembring any thing , either done or s●yd ; she never having any of these psalmes by heart , or any booke by her , nor as yet any voice to sing them to this day . by her at that time was my neece muschamp , mr. moores six sonnes , and his daughter , with my owne children and servants , and divers neighbours . after my comming home , she fell into another of these strange fits ; the minister of tweedmouth being by , seeing and hearing many strange passages , which cannot halfe be remembred : but part of her discourse was ; that if she had two drops of his blood or hers , within ten dayes , it would save her life ; if not death long comming , but torment perpetually . divers of these fits she had , in every one expressing their bloud would save her life ; from ten dayes to six , from six to three , which was on a saturday , being heavily tormented , her tongue taken from her , with her eyes fixt on her objects , wrote thus againe , jo . hu. do . svvi . hath been the death of one deare friend , consumes mother deare friend , and torments me ; for three dayes they have no power , but the fourth they will torment me : two drops of his or her bloud would save my life , if i have it not i am undone , for seven yeares to be tormented before death come . whilest she was writing the teares comming downe her face , still saving her selfe in this bitter agony , as it were , from her enemies blows . as soone as her mother came from newcastle , she sent ( that servant she revealed her minde to at newcastle ) to one john hutton , he was one it was suspected that could do more then god allowed of ; bidding him confesse who had wrong'd her child , or she would apprehend him : her child in her extremity writing the two first letters of his name , with anothers . so when this servant told him his message another being by to witnesse his answer , which was thus : william hall , your mrs. knowes as well who hath wrong'd he● child as i : for the party that with a troubled minde your mrs. had concealed all this time , and at newcastle in her chamber all alone told you is she that hath done her all this wrong . the servant answered , god blesse me , could he tell what his mistresse said to him , no living soule else prese● it , bidding him reveale the party ? the rogue sayd , a great stone is not easily lifted , and he had one foot in the grave already : repeating many old sayings : but sayd , dorothy svvinovv wife then to colonell svvinovv , was the party that had done all the mischiefe to her child , and was the cause of all her further crosses . this answer being brought , and her childs last writing , three dayes they had no power , the fourth to torment ; and the sabbath being one of the three , the monday following , her mother , her neece muschamp , her son in law edvvard moore , george armorer , william hall , and william bard , rid to etherston thinking mr. waltōn to have beene a justice of the peace ; but was not : then she with her company went directly to sunderland , where jo. hutton dwelt , and sent for him , who forthwith came , and though they had never seen him , but by the childes description , nor he them ; he knew them all naming their names ; and fell downe on his knees for to pray for the child ; but her mother bidding him rise , she desired none of his prayers , but tell her how he came to know what she spake to her servant all alone , so far off , he repeated before all the company what he had formerly spoken . she sayd her eldest son was very ill too , the lord blesse him , not thinking that he was wronged ; but the rogue answered , one was the cause of both : she in a maze sayd , i had a sister that dyed in a restlesse sicknesse , god grant she was not wronged too : the rogue sayd , mistresse , mistresse , one is the cause of all , envy nothing will satisfie , but death . said she is this possible ? mistresse sayd he my life is in your hand , but i 'le maintaine dorothy svvinovv was the death of the lady margery hambleton , the consuming of your son , and the tormentor of your daughter , and the cause of all your evill ; and if you would have my hearts bloud take it , for my life is in your power , none speaking of bloud to him . she told him the child had wrote two drops of his or her bloud would save her life ; and if the devill had left so much in him , she would ( if it pleased the lord ) have it ere they parted . the wretch using still godly words and his prayers , desired to take his bloud privately , that none should see ; so the child nickt him halfe a dozen times in the forehead , but no bloud appeared ; then he put forth his right arme and that was not till her mother threatned his heart bloud should goe before she wanted it ; then he layd his thumb on his arme , and two drops appeared , which she wip'd off with a paper , the which she had writ the words in , and bid him farewell : he bid them ride softly , they had both tide and time enough , it being a fine quiet day ; of a sudden as soon as they were on horse back it grew very boystrous , that they had much adoe to sit on their horses ; riding fast , at sunderland towns end , came two white lambs to them , and kept close with their horses till they came to bambrough , being two long miles , neither sheep nor lambs neere them ; the water was very deep , yet being venterous they rid it over . on munday night she fell into a heavenly rapture , rejoycing that ever she was borne , for these two drops of blood had saved her life , otherwise she had beene seaven yeares in torment without any ease , or death had come : behold her two angels ( which she was bold to call them ) on her right hand , and her tormenters on her left , setting her selfe with a majestick carriage , her words so punctuall and discreet , that it was admirable to the beholders . saying her angels bid her now be bold to speake out , looking on her left hand , saying , thy name is john hutton , and hers is dorothy svvinovv , she hath beene the death of my aunt hambleton , the consumer of my brother , and the tormenter of me ; she knowing my aunts estate was but for life , and her onely sonne had marryed fausets daughter , who to enjoy the estate , he having but one sonne , was the cause of yong james fausets unnaturall fits : but thinking mr. fauset would follow her more strictly there , then we could doe here , let him alone , to be the more vehement with us , every fit promising me case , if i would consent to lay it on my mother ; but i will never consent , but if it were possible indure more torment ; since she is all that the lord of his goodnesse hath left to take care of us five fatherlesse children ; except our father in heaven , which protects her for our sakes . thus for two houres together she continued in a very heavenly religious discourse with these angels , rejoycing that she had got two drops of blood ; saying , if her brother had as much , it would save his life also ; witnesse to these words were mr. moore of spittle , his six sonnes and a daughter , mr. elizabeth muschamp , mrs. margaret selby , anne selby , and george lee , who was almost cast away comming into barwick harbour in a ship by that fearfull tempest which hutton raised . george armorer , william hall , william beard , henry orde , with divers neighbours , all admiring the lords great power expressed in that afflicted childe . her mother being destrous to have some small quantity of huttons blood , rode the next day to him with two servants , who brought him to her sonne , he not being able to goe to him . he acknowledged still his life was in her hands , and came riding behinde one of her servants home to the spittle where she dwelt , and being brought before mr. moore , confirmed all that he had formerly confessed , and withall sayd , mrs. svvinovv had two bad women about her , the millers and the websters wives , who had beene the death of jo. custerd and his wife , with many other things of their wickednesse : that night he desired to goe to rest , and when he pleased to call him , he would confesse further to him alone ; the next day came mr. william orde , mr. broad minister , with mr. heberin , and edvvard saufield , who heard all this confirmed , and so the mother tooke her sonne in her armes to the place where the wretch was , and got his blood . he stayed there seven or eight dayes , and yet mr. moore had never power to examine him any more , the wretch still desiring to be gone , the mother in the presence of margaret selby , margaret orde , and william beard , charged him , that although he had beene long the devills servant , at last to be but a bridge for gods creatures to goe over , in confessing the truth ; who answered , mistris , mistris . if i were a yong man , able to endure all the torments that should be layed on me , i would take my death that mrs. dorothy svvinovv was the death of the lady hambleton , the confumer of your sonne , and the tormentor of your daughter , and the cause of all your other troubles . now whilest he was there the girle was never troubled , but he was not past the townes end , till she fell into a terrible fit ; saying , dorotht svvinovv with two witches more were come to torment her worse then ever hutton did , and the one was a yong woman , and the other an old : so that till they had justice of dorothy svvinovv , her mother and they should never be at peace : upon this her mother rid to justice foster of nuham , and upon oath gave information against both hutton and mrs. svvinovv , to apprehend them , who after delayes apprehended him , and sent him to newcastle goale , but not her , though it will appeare she was three several times in his company after he had the information upon oath , whereof he gave her a coppy , with the coppy of huttons examination , but would never let mrs. muschamp see it ; seeing that delay , she spoke with a durham justice at bellford , which not being in the county , and in haste he could not grant her a warrant to apprehend the sayd mrs. svvinovv ; but bid mr. foster doe justice , which is not yet done . the girle having many tormenting fits , in the midst of which her angels alwayes appearing to her , banishing the witches , which she apprehended ; the girle would cry out and relate to her angels how she by the two witches had been tormented , forcing her to get the information , whereof her mother kept a coppy ; so that let her mother give the paper to whom she would , or laye it anywhere , the child would goe to either place or party most strangely . as soone as her angels departed . her torments leaving her , she told them that her enemies would have killed her : but justly might she sing the . ps plead thou my cause o lord , &c. repeating the first part thereof so sensibly and distinctly , that the ministers there present admired to heare it . as likewise her declaring the death of the rogue hutton in prison before it was knowne there , saying if he had been urged he would have discovered the other . witches ; foretelling many strange truths , appointing divers meetings with her angels , such a day and such an houre , to consult with them what should become of her brother , and what punishment her enemies should have , bidding every one they should not so much as looke after her , for if they did it would anger her angels , and undoe her , for there were some strange angels besides her owne to meet her ; this being the fourth meeting with them , and it would declare all , saying she must have all cleane cloathes about her ; for this day or to morrow she must meet them under such a tree in the garden : after comming out of her fit , she remembred not any thing what was done or sayd . her mother observing her words , which hitherto had beene so remarkable , clothed her childe all in white , and freely commended her to the lord , watching his glorious time in the afternoone , being in a walk under a tree with her brothers and sisters ; suddenly she gave a great shrike , and skipt over a double ditch and another , and run to the garden doore . her eldest sister came to her mother saying , margret is gone to her angels meeting , who with hast ran with the key of the garden doore , where her childe was standing , beating at it , saying , i come , i come : she opened the doore and left her to her protector , and hastily went to the other side of the house to secure that part of the garden : but ( alas ) ere she came , a wicked creature set on by the enemies instigation , had been looking after her , and her childe wringing her hands , weeping bitterly , as if she could have torne her flesh from the bones , or haire off her head , saying who was here ? what wicked creature had stayd her blessed angels from her ; and for three houres together tooke on grievously , her mother weeping with her , begging of the lord not to punish the innocent for the wickeds fault . after some time the child went into the garden againe , where finding one of her angels , she sayd , lord , it was not my fault : but well is me that you will come unto me ! but ( alas ) where are the rest ? her mother being within , hearing these words . a quarter of a yeare ( a long time to be without comfort ) still weeping : then she had this answer from her angels , that for twelve weeks they would not visibly appeare to her . this she remembred for three dayes , and related to her brothers and sisters and the rest of the houshold the shape of those angels : which were bodyed like birds , as big as turkies , and faces like christians , but the sweetest creatures that ever eyes beheld : one of the strange ones came flying over the trees with a sweet voyce , and gave her notice the rest were come ; which she found most true . two or three lighted upon the ground , and the rest with the heavenliest voyces that ever were heard , with a resolution to declare the truth of all . and if the justices , and judges at the assizes would not doe justice , her owne two angels ( who were alwayes to her like a dove and a partridge ) would visibly , to the admiration of all the beholders , appear like a man and a woman , and justifie the truth , if the wicked wretch had not scared them away . but now the one of her angels bid her have a care she were neither frighted nor angred for twelve weeks , in which time they would not come to her ; but in the meane time her enemy would make every third fit a terrible one , which was most true . in the meane time colonel svvinovv dyed , and she comes into the countrey , and because foster would doe no justice , i got her apprehended in berwick ; she made such friends that it was a greater freedome to her then she had formerly from all other lawes , and went at pleasure . the girle with her mother being one sabbath day at berwick church , comming along the bridge with her husbands son , and daughter ; dorotry svvinovv being at the farther end thereof , the girle never seeing her but in her fits , knew her and was ready to fall downe in her mothers hand , crying yonder is the wofull thiefe ; her mother knowing it true , sayd now to the girle it is not she , who answered , i have seen her a hundred times to my smart , it is she : her mother troubled much at the sight too , would have had the girle back , but her desire was to be at home , who was no sooner come in , but she fell inro a terrible fit , for two houres long ; sometimes her tongue drawne in within her throat , other whiles hanging over her chin on her breast . sad and heavy sights were seen in her afflictions , still bidding all that were by her see the wicked wretch dorothy svvinovv with the two witches at her back , saying she would not let her goe back to berwick , lest the justices should have been witnesses themselves ; but let her come home , where she knew all their hearts were hardened : for alas , she sayd i have two weeks and two dayes yet before my comforters come , which made her enemies thus cruell , that if it were in her power to take their lives she would but the lords preserving power would never leave them who suffered these torments for his owne glory and their soules health saying , ours were but the corrections of a loving father to shew his great power in his weakest children , rejoycing exceedingly that he thought her ( a sinfull creature ) worthy so much happinesse , accounting it more joy to see her blessed angels then all the world could afford , thanking god especially for making her a watch over her mother , brothers , and sisters , and would foretell strange things before they happened . when her . weekes were past , the very day and houre came divers to see the event , and waited with patience her appoynted time , which was the very minute of the houre of the day . weekes , they were scared from her , mr. broad , minister , mr. stevens , physitian , mrs. muschamp , and mrs. hagarston , besides their owne neighbours were witnesses , hearing her expresse much joy to meete with those long absent deare friends , relating the intention some had to looke after them againe ; so apprehending them in the chamber , where the spectators heard her for two houres , most divinely and heavenly discourse with them , answering and replying to that religious discourse , praying for her enemy dorothy svvinovv , with the teares running downe her face , that if the lord had mercy in store to grant her it , lamenting the sad condition she had run her soule into , for satisfying her malice to lessen her hope of eternity , making such a description betweene hell torments and heavenly joyes , as that no divine on earth could have gone beyond her : crying out for justice , saying , if she were in hold as a fellon ought to be , her power would be gone , and their torments eased ; but now with much joy she blest god her angels would never leave her againe , whilst they were in affliction ; saying , she would go to the judges ( and desired to carry her brother there to ) and begge for justice ; if she got it , her brother should come home as well as ever he was , she no more tormented , and there should be no more hard heartednesse against her mother , which the lord knowes was such without any just cause , that her passion is by gods power beyond imagination : every fit she spake to this effect , till the sizes came : in her fit her brother asked her if it were possible that he could ride that could neither go or stand ; she answered that the lord would inable him , therefore he should goe , and her angels would goe along with them , and bring them safe back againe . so their mother not daring to disobey such divine commands , whose confidence doth wholly depend upon gods providence from heaven , rid behinde her sonne , and came to the judge , relating her sad condition ; he heard her , but being falsely informed , did not resent it : she went to the justices to remove dorothy svvinovvs body to the county where the act was committed : they pretended ignorance , the childrens mother went with them to a counsellour to instruct them , whose answer was he would not meddle in it : yet these dejectments did not drive her from an undoubted confidence in an all sufficient god ; the next day betweene one and two of the clock in the afternoone the girle suddainely had a fit and after her torments her angels appeared unto her , to them she complaines , saying , no justice abroad , no peace at home , what should become of her mother ? for that godlesse thiefe dorothy svvinovv , by the instigation of the divell , had hardned the heart of both judges and justices against her , and now at this instant ( sayd she ) is using meanes to harden her husbands heart against her too ( which she knowes will be cruellest to her of all ) and withall begun to consume her eldest sister , and that she would this night , or to morrow morning go to the judge , begge once more for justice ; if she got it , her brother with the rest should be well , if not , worse then ever ; saying , if the judge denyed her it , it would not be well with him ; this was part of her two houres discourse . witnesses the chamber full , amongst which was , colonel sipthorp , and his wife . colonel roddam . captain tompson , his brother and two sisters . mr andirson , and mr. svvadvvell . mrs. clether . mrs. allgood . dr. genison . before she was out of her fit came dr. genison , who invited the mother with her children to his house , being the next house to the judges chamber , in regard the girles first appoyntment was alwayes kept ; so after her supper sent to see if it were more convenient to waite upon the judge that night , or the next morning : the answer was returned that night was fittest : so dr. clether and his wife , with dr. genison and his , went along with the mother and their children thither , there was a great many spectators to see the event . thus being set downe in the chamber , her mother began her former suit , in begging justice : his answer was , that that which belonged unto the county palatine of durham , belonged not unto him : so she requested him in his returne back , either to doe it , or else give order to the justices in the county to apprehend her ; of a suddaine the girle fell into a fit , relating before them all dorothy svvinovvs malice from the beginning , the cause of the troubles that broke sir ro. hambletons heart , the death of his lady , and how she sought still by evill meanes to take away her mothers life , when the lord would not permit that , got leave first to torment her , then to consume her brother , and now hath begun to consume her eldest sister , and harden her father in lawes heart , to make her mothers life more sorrowfull , with her hands up , and eyes fixed upon her objects , begged justice for the lords sake , for jesus christs sake ; saying i ought to command justice by the lawes of the realme , in the name of our soveraigne lord the king , but i beg not in the name of any mortal man , but in the name of the king of kings , justice for christs sake , justice for his mercies sake , it we have but ordinary justice , which ought not to be denyed to the poorest creature who demands it , my brother that sits there shall goe home as well as ever he did , i no more tormented , my mother no more afflicted , and my sisters torments at an end : if we have no justice my torments shall be doubled , my brother worse then ever he was , and my sister ( which she hath this day begun to torment ) worse then any of us , and my mothers afflictions , by the hardning of folks hearts against her will be unsufferable ; but the lords preserving mercy will never leave them who depend upon his providence ; but it will be worse for them who deny us justice then for us . these words with many more significant expressions , that the judge thought she feigned : but as soon as she was out of her fit , did not know what was past , as all the beholders did see , onely an innocent bashfull girle , without any confidence at all when she was out of her fits . so her mother returned home with them , where she found her other girle began to consume . that night she came home the girle fell into a fit , pressing to vomit , but nothing came up but a piece of fir-stick full of crooked pinnes : after her angels came , she cryed out of the judges injustice , saying , now the enemy when she sees she can have no justice , strived to choake her with these things , being stones , coles , brick , lead , straw , quills full of pins , with straw full of pins , tow , and virginall wire , all full of pins ; one great stone for three weekes together came alwayes to her throat and went back again , till at the last the lord brought it up . she bid watch with her brother three weeks ; for they would if they could either cut his throat in the night , or else burne him with fire ; therefore let the watchers be very wakefull , and carefull , so blessed be god they were , and did heare as it were knives sharpning on the staires , and severall times fire was found in the roome one night , like to have burnt them , but by gods mercyes were saved . she sayd now dorothy svvihovv was seeking a new way to take away her mothers life ; for she was consuming the child within her , and withall bad them watch with her brother and sister that night twelve month they began to torment him ( which was saint johns day at night ) betwixt the houres of . and . in the morning , and that very moment of the houre they would seek to take his life and the use of his sisters legs , if christians prayers and diligent watching did not prevent them ; so it pleased the lord to move the hearts of good friends to watch with them till the houre came . the girle then had her fit , and cryed out , the grand witch meg is come to the doore with a lighted candle in each hand , pray on one halfe houre longer , and their power will be gone , who observed her request , there was a suddaine smell of brimstone , but nothing seene by any ; but here are some of their names that were witnesses to most of her tryalls , and first them that prayed by her . mr. broad . mr. edvvard orde . mr. george atherlony . mr. edvvard moores six sonnes , and one daughter . with divers others , which were too tedious to relate . after this her brother and sister continued still consuming , and she every other day falling into her fits , and after torment her angels alwayes appearing unto her , she still declares that dorothy svvinovv hardened the hearts of all that her mother had to deale with , sayd , it should be worse and worse , till of an instant the lord should make her greatest enemies her greatest friends ; declaring how that if she were in hold her paine were gone , as well as huttons was for telling her owne releasement a quarter of a yeare before it came ; saying , it was neither for her owne desires or her owne ease , that the lord released her , but to helpe her mother when she could not helpe her selfe , which was most true to her great griefe and sorrow , but much joy to thinke that the lord should not onely foretell it , but inable her own to helpe her : she still expecting justice , sent these strange things the girle cast off her stomack to durham , which could scarce be believed ; yet by chance one being by at the casting of them , which was there present , got a warrant to apprehend dorothy svvinovv , and served it her owne hands , with many contradictions ere it was done : where dorothy svvinovv came into a chamber in the constables house , which afterwards she confessed was for feare of taking her blood , which was never in the others thoughts : yet obeyed not that warrant , till a second , then went but onely and put in bayle , as though it had beene for an ordinary fault , which the girle in her fits cryed out of , saying , that still gave her further power to worke her wickednesse . still all this quarter the girl in her fits desired them to watch with her , on candlemas eve , and they should not thinke their labour lost , and betwixt the houres of one and two the next day the glory of god should appeare , her mother being confident of the lords mercy , gave notice to all that came nigh her ; so some that feared god came to see the event , which releasement being writ from her owne mouth will confirme these warnings of her former trialls , which have all with much patience beene gone thorow , that the preserving mercies of the most glorious god , who never failes those that depend upon his most firme promises was never more declared on earth then in the weakest of his creatures , preserved by a gratious god , to whom let all that read and heare these unexpressible mercies , give all glory , honour , laud , and praises . the expressions of margaret muschamp when she was in her last extreame fit , upon the second day of . february , . they thought because their time was but short , to have tormented me worse then ever , but i defie them . i have reason to blesse god more for his mercies to me , then i thinke ever sinfull creature had . both my torments are at an end , and those fearefull sights i doe not now see , though it hath pleased god to suffer and let them have power to torment me , yet i was never without comfort . my time was sad when i had no comfort , but i thanke god who hath given me patience . i blesse god who never suffered the devill to have so much power , as to cause me blaspheme his name , or to speake words to offend him . it is a great mercy that he granted me patience to endure my payne ; if it had pleased god i should have beene content as well with torment as releasement . to her angels . because i shall have no more torment , shall not i see your faces againe ? that 's sad to me , that 's more griefe to me , i had rather endure my paine ; that 's more griefe ten thousand times , but since it 's gods will , i am as well content with the one as the other , i still trust in god he will send you to protect and watch over us . i have endured my paines a great while , it is two yeares agoe yesterday ; yet i blesse god for it , alwayes with much patience , my paine hath beene very vehement for the time , yet i blesse god i did never speake wordes to offend him : i confesse i doe not deserve it , i deserve no such thing , rather judgement , not such godly chasticement : since he granted them power , he never left me to my selfe . is this the last farewell ? if it had been gods will , i had rather indured all the torments could be put to a creature . but since it hath pleased god it should be so , i am content , the thing that 's his will , the lord grant that it never be sorrowfull to me , but make his will my will , that we may never repine . he knowes the secrets of all hearts . as for that wicked woman , if she had had any fear of god , she would have thought that though she had done it never so secretly , yet god would finde it out : she should have thought no such thing ; but where the divell gets entrance , his temptations are very strong . these torments are more welcome to me , then if i had been in my perfect health ; if i had not knowne what torments had been , what pain had been , i should never have seen such joyfull sights : these are more joyfull to me then all the paine . our paine , what 's all our pain ? what 's all the pain on earth ? gods mercy is above the divels power . their time is limited . they sought my mothers life , but could not get it . oh! to think of hells torments which she hath run her soule into , that 's more torment then all ours . it's comfort for me , joy for me , that god hath showne his power , that god hath given the divell power to torment , i care not what the divell can doe ; i defie all the divels in hell , for where the divell hath any power , he triumphs as much as he can , though he triumph and we are weake , god is strong , his power is not lessened . that wicked woman dorothy svvinovv was the cause of the death of my aunt margery hambleton , she was the cause of those troubles , which she thought should have broke my aunts heart , but they broke sir roberts , that the estate might fall to her sonne : she was the cause of james faucets unnaturall fits , but she let him alone , because she knew that if he came to london he would follow her more strictly then we can here . she set two witches more to torment us : jo. hutton , that dyed in prison was my great tormenter , these witches have begun my sisters torment , though our torments have been more long , yet her time hath been most sad , because she wanted comfort : though i have had my paines , i never wanted comfort . she hath entred into the divels service , ought she not to think of the torment of her soule ? if it had not been thus with us , we should have despised the mercyes of god , our comfort is for joy in heaven , that 's more comfort for us , that 's more happinesse to thinke of , then all our paines and torments ; if our bodyes were torne at horse heeles , and dragged with wild beares , yet all were nothing to heavens joyes . our souls are a precious jewell , we ought all to looke after them ; our bodies are but dust and ashes : if our bodies were tortured with all torments , one blinke of heavens joyes will sweeten all . now my torments are at an end , i care not though they were longer : the torment of my body is nothing , but to thinke of the torment she hath hazarded her soule into , is the torment of hell fire . wee confesse wee all deserve that , but not by that meanes she hath . none will believe it , she sets such a faire face upon it : where the divell tempts , delusions are strong . the divell hath gotten power to harden all hearts . those that are to do us justice , will not : though they deny us justice , yet god can and will in his due time , grant us justice over them all . though god hath suffered the divell to have power to torment us ; they now have their times : certainly our times are in a better life ; we have no pleasure here , all our pleasure is in the world to come . i have cause to blesse god , who doth send these blessed angels to watch over me : my paynes were always with joy , never sorrowfull , and when i had no comfort , yet i had hopes that god who layed them on me , would take them off me in his due time . have not i reason to blesse god ? none hath reason more : the lord grant i never forget his mercies : he hath been very mercifull to us , in granting us patience to endure more then wee could expect at his hands . what is this they have run their soules into ? the lord grant them hearts to repent them of their sinns ; the lord grant us penitent hearts to repent us of our sinnes : we have all done as much as deserves hell , where is gnashing of teeth , paines , fire and brimstone for ever . we have cause to blesse god that hath not suffered us to go neither to witches , nor any of the divels servants , but to looke to god . no creature thought we could have indured , what can we indure of our selves ? no , without god we can doe nothing , what cannot god inable us to indure ? there is nothing that can be done , but we can do it by gods assistance , we cannot say we can doe any thing of our selves , no not the least thing in the world , seeing our helpe is in an able god , we can do any thing . i know the lord will never suffer the divell to have any further power over our bodies ; though they hurt our bodies , they shall not hurt our soules , they shall not come neare our soules . our soules are all the comfort we can expect , what are our bodies ? our bodies are nothing ; i blesse god that would have his glory tryed on our weake bodies , which no creature thought could have indured such torment . we have reason my brother , sister , and all of us to blesse god ; yea , all creatures that behold it have reason to blesse god , and to thinke that he is a mercifull god to us , it is his mercy we know , it is his promise that all those that repent with penitent hearts , he is still ready to forgive them , we acknowledge it is gods mercy , not our deserts . they have tormented my brother a yeare a gone st. iohns day at night , and they have tormented me two yeares agone yeasterday , my sister is pined away , they began with her since lammas , she hath lesse comfort then we have had . she from the beginning hath had great paine without comfort , and though my paine have beene sorest , yet i have had great comfort . since god hath granted this day to be my releasement , have i not reason to blesse this god ? my brother and sister are still under their burthen : let them not thinke it a burthen , but rather beg patience to indure it . if ever god give them health , we have all reason to have thoughts of eternity , and never to forget the word of god . my sister is worse then my brother , or then ever i was , my torments were vehement , sometimes a day , sometimes eight houres , sometimes shorter , sometimes longer ; and though my time was sore and vehement , yet still i had ease after it , but my sister hath no ease . now when i am released , what shall become of my brother and sister , if it please god to give them so much power as to torment them ? if that god make me a watch over them , that i may declare their grief , it is a great mercy . they thought to have choaked me , once they made me cast up pins , and stones , and things that creatures would not thinke possible should have come out of my mouth , yet god inabled me to indure that not any creature thought i could . they thought to have done the like to my brother , but god did not suffer the divell to have so much power , but they have striven so to do . for my brother george he had neede to have a care of himselfe , he by the sight of me i saw consumed ; we have reason to blesse god he is away . if you love my sister bettyes life bring her not home , you may as well take a knife and cut her throat , as be the cause of her torments . if they love my sister and brothers life , bring them not in sight one minute , by looking on them doth them more hurt then we thinke of . if my sister had gone away to and not looked so much on my brother as she hath done it had beene better for her . she hath done her selfe more wrong then us , in setting these two more against us , though it hath pleased god to let them have so much power over our bodies , yet they never had power over our soules . they are trying all ways in the world to have power to torment my mother , they are seeking to torment her by an unnaturall way , if we have not a care of our selves , and one of another by gods mercies . shall they never have more power to torment me ? they thought this last night to have made me more passionate then ever i was ; i blesse god though they made me somewhat passionate , yet stil god inabled me with patience not to be much extravagant much after their desires , those justices all of them have denyed us justice : let them take heede of themselves : let them take heede of a heavy burthen that may fall upon themselves : though our mother be loving unto us ; yet let them take heede of a heavy burthen may fall on them : i wish to god it be not so , that the innocent doe not suffer , the lord grant they may have a sensiblenesse of the wrong they have done us , and suffer not the innocent to indure for them . now after this , when they cannot get power to torment me , will they ever be more vehement with my brothers and sisters ? whensoever she is put in hold till she come to her tryall she should not have her liberty ; for if she come abroad amongst her company , she will be as cruel as ever . if these two witches were catcht and in hold , she would goe to death to the utmost to make them more vehement then ever : though they torment the rest , yet they shall never have power to torment me . it is sayd in the word of god , you shall not suffer a witch to live ; yet she consults with witches , and consults with their wayes , which by the lawe of god deserves death . shall i never behold your faces againe ? if it were so it would be more sad to me then all my paine : though you be not in my sight , yet i trust in gods mercy so much , as that you will still watch over us , and protect us . god grant we never forget gods mercies , to be impatient , seeing we have rest in torment . what mercies can be showne unto a creature , but it hath pleased god to shew it to me ? that it hath pleased him to grant mee so much patience , though of my selfe i was not sensible of my torments , that was a mercy and much comfort to my soule , that though they tormented my body , they never had power to cause me speake unbefitting words to hazzard my soule . but had it not pleased god to have sent you to me that time , what have would become of me ? i had beene distracted and like a mad body . when the divell was strong and had most power , god still crossed him of his opportunity . those that are so malicious , seldome any thing satisfies their mindes , save this extravagant way , that is a fore thing : many times malice is never satisfied without life : shall i never see you with my eyes here ? yet ye will reveale this , either by me , or by some other means it shall be more strange before it be all declared . now after this time shall i never have more torment by any witch , nor none i hope . shall i meet you in such a place , at such a time ? i will . seeing you have set mee that time of appoyntment , i hope you will put me in minde of it : i will , if it be gods will to make me do it . mr. francis broad , and mr. george atherlony two ministers , with doctor stephens a physitian , were with her in divers of her last tormenting fits . these words were spoken in the hearing of two ministers , and at least a hundred others . and taken by mr. edward ord. margaret white of chatton , her owne confession of her selfe . confesseth and saith , that she hath beene the divels servant these five yeares last past , and that the divell came to her in the likenes of a man in blew cloaths , in her owne house , and griped her fast by the hand , and told her she should never want , and gave her a nip on the shoulder , and another on her back ; and confesseth her familiar came to her in the likenesse of a black grey-hound , and that the divell had carnall knowledge of her in her owne house two severall times . likewise the sayd margaret whites confession upon oath of others , as followeth , viz. mrs. dorothy svvinovv of chatton , and jane martin of the same , and sister to the sayd margaret , white of chatton , aforesayd , confesseth upon oath that mrs. svvinovv , and her sister jane , and her selfe were in the divels company in her sister janes house , where they did eate and drinke together ( as by her conceived ) and made merry . and mrs. svvinovv , and her the sayd margarets sister with her selfe , came purposely to the house of mr. edvvard moore of spittle , to take away the life of margaret muschamp and mary , and they were the cause of the childrens tormenting , and that they were three severall times to have taken away their lives , and especially upon st. johns day at night gone twelve moneths ; and sayth that god was above the divell , for they could not get their desires perfected ; and saith , that mrs. svvinovv would have consumed the childe that mrs. moore had last in her wombe , but the lord would not permit her ; and that after the childe was borne mrs. swinow was the occasion of its death , and mrs. swinow came riding on a little black nag to the spittle with a riding coat , and that she and her sister were also the occasion , and had a hand in the death of the sayd child : and further confesseth that she and her sayd sister were the death of thomas yong of chatton ( by reason ) a kill full of oates watched against her sisters minde ; and further saith , that the divell called her sister jane ( besse : ) she confesseth , that her sister jane had much troubled richard stanley of chatton , and that she was the occasion of his sore leg. this is acknowledged and confessed to be true , before john sleigh justice of peace , and robert scot towne clarke of barwick . margaret white , i her marke this was confirmed after , in the presence of mr. ogle of eglingame , mr. walton of etherstone , mr. foster of newham , justices of the peace , being present a multitude of people at kime●stone : this same was afterward taken upon oath at morpeth , in the presence of mr. delavall , high sherriffe of northumberland , mr. ogle , mr. fenwick , mr. delavall , mr. shafto , mr. kilinworth , mr. hall , six justices of the peace . warrants issued out after her inditement was found , for the apprehending of her , but as yet not taken . northumber . ad generalem sessionem pacis tent . apud alnwick pro com. pred. die mercurii viz. . die aprilis , . coram gulielmo selby mil. georgio fenwick ar. henrico ogle ar. & al. justic. ad pacem in com. pred. conservand . assignat . &c. necnon , &c. nomina jurator . ad inquirend. . &c. johannes ilderton . ar. will. armorer , gen. nich. forster , gen. ephr. armorer , gen. franc. alder . gen. richard . widhouse , gen. georgius lisle , gen. alex. armorer , gen. christoph . ogle , gen. edvardus bell , gen. radulphus watson , gen. hugh arrowsmith , gen. jo. creswel . gen. joh. ord , gen. georgius craw , gen. franc. forster , gen. henricus johnson , gen. qui quidem jurator , putant ut sequitur . iur. pro custod . libert. angl. authoritat . parliamenti super sacram suam presentant . quod dorotheo swinow nuper de chatton in com. northumber . vid. die martii anno dom. millesimo , sexcentesimo , quadragesimo , octavo , ac divers . al. dict. & vicibus tam antea quam postea deum pre oculis non hab. sed instigatione diabolicaseduct . quosd . malas & diabolicas artes angl. vocat witchcrafts , inchantments , charmes , and sorceries , nequit diabolic . ac felonice apud spittle in com. palatin . dunelm . die & anno supradict . usa fuit & exercit . ratione quarundum malarum & diabolicarum artium quidem sibilla moore de spittle pred. in com. palatin . dunelm . pred. infans existen . & ad tunc in pace dom. r. ad tunc existen . a pred. vicesimo quarto die martii supradict . usque primam diem aprilis anno supradict . languebat . & pred. sibilla apud insulam sacram in com. palatin . pred. ad mortem suam devenit & vitam suam dimisit & sic jur. pred. super sacr. suum pred. dicunt quod vid. dorothea pred. sibilla ratione practitionibus & exerit . diabol . artiū pred. apud insul. sacr. pred. in com. palatin . dunelm . pred. modo & forma pred. felonice & diabolice interfecit contr. pacem publicam nunc . copia . ex. per crow . cl. pa. northumber . ad generalem sessionem pacis tent . apud alnwick pro com. pred. die mercurii , viz. vicesimo quarto die aprilis . coram gulielmo selby mil. georgio fenwick ar. & henrico ogle ar. & al. justic. ad pacem in com. pred. concernant . assignant . &c. necnon &c. vvhereas dorothy swinow of chatton widdow , doth stand indicted at this sessions of divers witchcrafts , inchantments , charmes , and sorceries , and especially for useing and practising the sayd diabolicall arts upon sibilla moore an infant and child of mrs. mary moore widdow : it is therefore ordered by the court , and the high sheriffe of the sayd county , his bayliffes and officers , and all others whom it may concern , are hereby required forthwith to apprehend the body of the sayd dorothy swinow , & her to carry & convey unto the goal of the said county , there to remain untill she shall be thence delivered by due course of law . to the high sheriffe of the sayd county , and to all constables and officers , whom it may concerne . crow , cl. pac. northumber . ralph delaval esquire , high sheriffe of the sayd county , to all bayliffes of liberties , sheriffes , bayliffes , constables , and whomsoever else it may concerne , greeting ; by vertue of an order from the sessions of the peace to me directed , these are to charge and command you , and every of you , that immediately upon sight hereof , you attach and apprehend the body of dorothy swinow of chatton widdow , and her safely convey to the common goale at morpeth , there to remaine untill she shall be from thence delivered by due course of law ; hereof faile not , as you will answer the contrary at your utmost perills . given under the seale of my office this . day of april , anno domini , . per eundem vic. finis . the tryal and condemnation of dr. oliver plunket, titular primate of ireland, for high-treason at the barr of the court of king's bench at westminster, in trinity term, . plunket, oliver, saint, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryal and condemnation of dr. oliver plunket, titular primate of ireland, for high-treason at the barr of the court of king's bench at westminster, in trinity term, . plunket, oliver, saint, - . england and wales. court of king's bench. p. printed by joseph ray for eliphal dobson, dublin : . reproduction of original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng popish plot, . trials (treason) -- great britain. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryal and condemnation of d r oliver plunket titular primate of ireland , for high-treason , at the barr of the court of king's bench , at westminster , in trinity term , . i do appoint francis tyton , and thomas basset , to print the tryal of oliver plunket . fr. pemberton . dublin , printed by joseph ray at colledge-green , for eliphal dobson bookseller on cork-hill . . the tryal and condemnation of dr. oliver plunket titular primate of ireland . the third of may . in easter . carol. secund. reg. dr. oliver plunket was arraigned at the kings-bench bar for high treason for endeavouring and compassing the kings death , and to levy war in ireland , and to alter the religion there , and to introduce a foreign power , and at his arraignment , before his plea , he urged for himself , that he was indicted of the same high treason in ireland , and arraigned , and at the day for his tryal the witnesses against him did not appear , and therefore he desired to know if he could be tried here for the same fact ? the court told him , that by a statute made in this kingdom , he might be tried in the court of kings-bench , or by commission of oyer and terminer in any part of england , for facts arising in ireland , and that his arraignment there ( he being never tried upon it ) was not sufficient to exempt him from being tried here ; because till a tryal be passed , and there be a conviction or acquittal thereupon , an arraignment , barely , is no plea : for in such cases the party is not put twice in danger of his life , which only is the thing the law in such cases looks after to prevent . he then desired time for his witnesses , which they told him he could not do till after plea pleaded ; whereupon he pleaded not guilty , and put himself upon the country for his tryal ; and after some consideration had about time to be allowed him to bring his witnesses from ireland , the court appointed the day for his tryal , to be the first wednesday in next term , which was full five weeks time . and accordingly on wednesday the th . of june , in trinity term , he was brought to his tryal , and proclamation , as in such cases is usual , being made , it proceeded thus . clerk. of crown . oliver plunket , hold up thy hand , those good men which thou shalt hear called and personally appear , are to pass between , &c. plunket . may it please your lordship , i have been kept close prisoner for a long time , a year and an half in prison ; when i came from ireland hither , i was told by persons of good repute , and a counsellour at law , that i could not be tried here ; and the reasons they gave me were , that first the statute of hen. . and all other statutes made here , were not received in ireland , unless there were an express mention made of ireland in them : so that none were received there but such as were before poyning's act. so i came with that perswasion that i could not be tried here , till at my arraignment your lordships told me it was not so , and that i must be tried here , though there was no express mention made of ireland . now , my lord , upon that , whereas my witnesses were in ireland , and i knew nothing of it , and the records upon which i very much relye were in ireland , your lordship was pleased to give me time from the th . of the last month to this day ; and in the mean time , as your lordship had the affidavit here yesterday , and as captain richardson can testifie , have not dispatched only one , but two to ireland : into the counties of armagh , dublin , &c. and where there were records very material to my defence : but the clerk of the crown would not give me any copy of any record at all , unless he had some express order from your lordship ▪ so that whether it were that they were mistaken , or wilfully refused . i could not get the records which were very material for me . for in some of those records some of these that accuse me were convicted of high crimes , and others were outlawed and imprisoned , and broke prison ; and there were other records also of excommunication against some of them , and i could not get the records , unless your lordship would instruct me in some way or other , how i can get over them that are most material for my defence . the servants that i sent hence , and took shipping for ireland , were two days at sea , and cast back again , and from thence were forced to go to holly head , and from holly head in going to dublin they were thirteen or fourteen days , the winds were so contrary ; and then my servant went about to go into the county of armagh and derry , that were a hundred miles from dublin , and meath , and other places ; so that in so short a time , my lord , it was morally impossible for them to have brought the witnesses over ; and those that were ready to have come , would not stir at all , unless they had a pass from hence , because some of them were roman catholicks , and they had heard that here some were taken prisoners that were roman catholicks , and that none ought to come without a pass ; and they being witnesses against the king , they might be clapped up here , and brought into very ill condition : so they sent one over that made affidavit . l. c. j. it was the affidavit was read here yesterday . plunket . so that , my lord , i conceive your lordship will think i did it not out of any intent to put off my tryal ; for captain richardson is here , who knows that i writ by the post , and desired them to come with the pacquet-boat , and they writ over to the captain after they were landed ; so that i depended upon the wind and the weather for my witnesses , and wanted your lordships order for the records to be brought over , and that their examination might be brought into court , and their own original examination here might be compared with it . so i humbly beg your lordships favour , the case is rare , and scarce happens in five hundred years , that one should be in my circumstances . i am come here where no jury knows me , nor the quality of my adversaries ; if i had been in ireland i would have put my self upon my tryal to morrow without any witnesses , before any protestant jury that knew them and me . and when the orders went over , that i should be tried in ireland , and that no roman catholick should be upon the jury , and so it was in both the grand and other jury ; yet then when i came to my tryal , after i was arraigned , not one appeared : this is manifest upon the record and can be proved . l. c. j. there was no prosecution of you there . plunket . but , my lord , here is no jury that knows me , or the quality of my adversaries ; for they are not a jury of the neighbourhood that know them , and therefore my case is not the same with other cases . though i cannot harbour , nor do not , nor will not , nor ought not , the least conceipt of hard measure and injustice ; yet if i have not full time to bring my records and witnesses altogether , i cannot make my defence . some were there then , some afar off , so that it was a miracle that in six or seven counties they could do so much as they did : but they got in seven or eight of them , yet there were five or six wanting : therefore i beseech your lordship that i may have time to bring my records and witnesses , and then i will defie all that is upon the earth and under the earth to say any thing against me . l. c. j. look you , mr. plunket , 't is in vain for you to talk and make this discourse here now ; you must know , that by the laws of this kingdom , when a man is indicted and arraigned of treason or felony , 't is not usual to give such time ; 't is rare that any man hath had such time as you have had , five weeks time to provide your witnesses : if your witnesses are so cautions , and are such persons that they dare not , or will not venture for fear of being apprehended , or will not come into england , without such and such cautions , we cannot tell how to help it ; we can't furnish you with witnesses , you must look to get your witnesses your self ; if we should stay till your witnesses will come , perhaps they will never come here , and so you will escape out of the hands of justice . do not be discouraged in this , the jury are strangers to you peradventure , but they are honest gentlemen , and you shall have no other upon your jury ; and you may be confident , that if there be not some fact proved against you , that may amount to treason , you shall be discharged ; they are persons that understand so much , and we will direct them so much . you shall have as fair a tryal as if you were in ireland ; but for us to stay for your witnesses , or send you back to ireland , we cannot do it : therefore you must submit to your tryal . we heard your affidavit yesterday , and we did then tell the gentlemen that moved it , as much as we tell you . you are here to be tried , look to the jury as they are called , and except against them if you will. plunk . my lord , i desire only to have the favour of time , some time this term. l. c. j. we can't do it . cl. of cr. swear sir john roberts . plunk . i humbly present this to your lordship , i am then in eminent danger of my life , if i cannot get ten days to have my witnesses over : i desire i may have but to the th . of this month , and then if they do not come you may go on . l. c. j. we cannot do it , you have had five weeks time already . plunk . i desire but a few days . cryer . sir john roberts , take the book , look upon the prisoner ; you shall well and truly try , &c. plunket . my lord , i desire to know whether they have been of the juries of langhorn , or the five jesuits , or any that were condemned ? l. c. j. what if they have ? that is no exception . then the jury was sworn , whose names follow . sir john roberts , thomas harriot , henry ashurst , ralph bucknall , richard gowre , richard pagett , thomas earsby , john hayne , thomas hodgkins , james partherich , samuel baker , william hardy . cl. of cr. oliver plunket , hold up thy hand . you of the jury look upon the prisoner and hearken to his charge . he stands indicted by the name of oliver plunket , late of westminster , in the county of middlesex dr. of divinity , for that he as a false traytor against the most illustrious and most excellent prince our sovereign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france , and ireland king , and his natural lord , the fear of god in his heart not having , nor weighing the duty of his allegiance , but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the devil , the cordial love , and true and due natural obedience , which true and faithful subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , towards him our said sovereign lord the king do and of right ought to bear , utterly withdrawing , and contriving , and with all his might intending the peace and common tranquillity within the kingdom of ireland , as also of this kingdom of england to disturb , and war and rebellion against our said sovereign lord the king in the kingdom of ireland , then being the dominion of our said sovereign lord the king in parts beyond this seas ; to stir up and move , and the government of our said sovereign lord the king there to subvert , and our said sovereign lord the king from his regal power & government there to depose and deprive , and our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , to death and final destruction to bring and put , and the true worship of god within the said kingdom of ireland , by law established and used , to alter to the superstition of the romish church ; the first day of december , in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord charles the second , now king of england , &c. the th , and divers other days and times , as well before as after , at dublin in the kingdom of ireland , in parts beyond the seas , with divers other false traytors unknown , traiterously did compass , imagine , and intend the killing , death and final destruction of our said sovereign lord the king , and the antient government of his said kingdom of ireland to change , alter , and wholly to subvert , and him our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , from the crown & government of his kingdom of ireland aforesaid to depose & deprive , and the true protestant religion to extirpate , and war and rebellion against our said sovereign lord the king , there to move and levy . and to fulfil and accomplish his said most wicked treasons , and traiterous compassings , imaginations and purposes aforesaid ; he the said oliver plunket , the said first day of december , in the abovesaid th . year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , with force and arms , &c. at dublin , in the kingdom of ireland , then being the dominion of our said sovereign lord the king in parts beyond the seas , maliciously , devilishly and traiterously did assemble and gather together himself , with divers other traitors unknown , and then and there devilishly , advisedly , maliciously , subtilly and traterously did consult and agree our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , to death and final destruction to bring , and from his crown and government aforesaid to depose and deprive , and the religion of the romish church into the kingdom of ireland aforesaid to introduce and establish ; and the sooner to fulfil and perfect his said most wicked treasons and traitorous imaginations and purposes , he the said oliver plunket , with divers other false traitors unknown , then and there advisedly , maliciously and traiterously did further consult and agree to contribute , pay and expend divers great sums of mony to divers subjects of our said sovereign lord the king , and other persons unknown , to procure them the said persons unknown , our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , traiterously to kill , and the romish religion into the said kingdom of ireland to introduce and establish . and that he the said oliver plunket and other traitors unknown , afterwards , to wit , the said first day of december , in the two and thirtieth year of the reign of our said sovereign lord the king abovesaid , at dublin aforesaid , in the kingdom of ireland aforesaid , within the dominion of our said sovereign lord the king , with force and arms , &c. unlawfully , maliciously devilishly and traiterously did receive , collect , pay and expend divers great sums of mony to divers persons unknown , to persuade and induce divers other persons also unknown , the said false traytors in their said treasons to help and maintaintain , against the duty of his allegiance , and against the peace of our said sovereign lord the king , that now is , his crown and dignity , and against the form of the statutes in that case made and provided . to this indictment he hath pleaded , not guilty . mr. heath . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , this is an indictment of high-treason against dr. oliver plunket the prisoner at the bar , and it sets forth , that in the th . year of the king , at dublin in the kingdom of ireland , he did compass and imagine the death of the king , and to deprive the king of his kingdom of ireland , and to raise war to extirpate the protestant religion in the kingdom of ireland , and to establish the romish religion there . and it sets forth further , that for the accomplishment of these treasons , the defendant with several others did meet together at several places at dublin in the kingdom of ireland , and elsewhere , and at these several meetings did consult and agree to put the king to death , to raise war , to extirpate the protestant religion , and set up the romish religion . and the indictment further sets forth , that to accomplish these treasons , the defendent did raise great sums of mony in the kingdom of ireland , and did get several persons to contribute several sums for these treasons : and that the defendent with others did disburse several sums of mony to several persons , to persuade them and entice them to be aiding and assisting in these treasons , and to recompence them for them . to this indictment the defendent hath pleaded , not guilty . if we prove these things , you are to find him guilty . mr. serj. maynard . my lord , we will quickly come to the evidence . but in short , you have heard his charge is as high as can be against the king , and against the nation , and against all that is good . the design and endeavour of this gentleman was the death of the king , the destruction of the protestant religion in ireland , and the raising of war : and to accomplish this , we charge him , that there was a confederacy made , assemblies and consultations had to these ends , and raising mony to accomplish it . gentlemen , dr. plunket was made , as we shall prove to you , as they there call him , primate of ireland , and he got that dignity from the pope upon this very design . he did by vertue of that power , which he thought he had gotten , make out warrants , significations , i know not what they call them , to know how many men in ireland could bear arms from sixteen to forty ; he raises taxes upon the people and the clergy there . but , my lord , the particulars will best fall from the witnesses that we shall call and prove it by , and we need not make any aggravation ; for such a thing as this cannot be more aggravated than ' t is . mr. att. gen. may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , the character this gentleman bears , as primate under a foreign and usurped jurisdiction , will be a great inducement to you to give credit to that evidence we shall produce before you . we shall prove , that this very preferment was confer'd upon him upon a contract , that he should raise men in ireland , for the pope's service , to settle popery there , and to subvert the government . the evidence that we shall give you , will prove how it leads to destroy the king , and i take it according to the resolutions that have been , to raise war in the kingdom , and to introduce a foreign power ; will be certainly evidence of an attempt and machination to destroy the king. assoon as he was in possession of his primacy , he goes about his work . there are two great necessaries to be provided , men and money . for men , having this great spiritual jurisdiction , whereby , indeed , all that are under it are become slaves , he issues out his warrants to all the clergy of ireland , to give an account , and make return from the several parishes , of all the men in them above fourteen and under sixty . and returns were accordingly made by them , that he might accordingly take a measure what men to pick out for the service . the next thing was money , my lord ; and your lordship takes notice , that when the mind is enslaved , the purse , nay all the body bows to it . he issues out his warrants to his clergy , to make a collection of mony , in all parts great sums were levied , and when they were levied , we shall give you an accompt by our proofs , that several sums were issued out , and sent into france to further the business . there was also provision made of great ammunition and arms , and we shall prove in particular , several delivered out by this gentleman's order , to carry on this thing ; and to go through stitch with this business , he takes a view of all the several ports and places in ireland , where it would be convenient to land : for they were to have from france an auxiliary force , and upon his view he pitched upon carlingford as the place . we shall prove the several correspondencies between rome and him , and france and him , and several messengers imployed , and monies issued out from time to time for their maintenance . this will be the course of our evidence ; and we shall begin first with some that do not speak so particularly to this doctor , but prove there was a general design in all parts of the kingdom of ireland , to bring in the king of france , and extirpate the protestant religion : and then we shall call the particular persons to the particular facts against him . first we call florence wyer . [ who was sworn . ] mr. sol. gen. are your sworn , sir ? wyer . yes , sir. mr. sol. gen. pray give the court and the jury an account of what you know of any plot in ireland , to introduce the romish religion , or to bring in the french king. wyer . yes , i know there was a plot , both before plunket's time , and in his time ; for it was working in the years . and . but it was brought to full maturitie in the year . for then col. miles rely , and col. bourne was sent to ireland from the king of france , with a commission to muster as many men as he could , promising to send an army of men with a commission , upon st. lewis day in august next following , to land at carbingford , to destroy all the true subjects , to destroy the religion as it was established there , and to set up the french kings authority and the roman-catholick religion . and one edmond angle that was a justice of peace and clerk of the crown , sent for all the rebels abroad in the north to come up into the county of longford , and they marched into the head town of the county and sired the town ; the inhabitants fled into the castle : then they came up to the gaol , thinking to break it open , and by seting the prisoners free , to join them with them ; but then angle was shot , received a deadly wound , and drop'd off his horse , and they fled . so then when they were without the town , one charles mac canell alighted , and took away all the papers out of his pocket ; which , if they had been found , would have discovered all . this occasioned col. bourne to be suspected ; and being so suspected , he was taken prisoner , and turned to newgate in dublin . then col. reiley sled away again to france , and the plot lay under a cloud during the life of primate reiley the prisoners predecessor . this primate reiley died beyond sea. then many of the popish religion would have had the primacie conferred upon one duffy ; but the prisoner at the bar put in for it ; which might have been opposed , if the prisoner had not engaged and promised that he would so manage affairs , that before the present government were aware , he would surprise the kingdom , provided the pope and king of france would send a competent army to join with theirs for the effecting of it . so the first year of his coming over , i was in the friery at armagh : i was an acquaintance of the friers , and they invited me . and one quine told the prisoner , that they thought duffy would have been primate . said he , 't is better as it is ; for duffy hath not the wit to do those things that i have undert●ken to do ; meaning that he did undertake to supplant the protestant religion , to bring in popery , and put the kingdom under subjection to the king of france . mr. sol. gen. how do you know that ? wyer . those were the words , and the meaning i knew before , because i had heard it talked of . l. c. j. who was the first of these primates you speak of ? wyer . edmund reiley . he set this business on foot first . l. c. j. about what ? wyer . about calling the rebels together out of the north when they came to longford . l. c. j. what year was that ? wyer . it was in the year ( . ) l. c. j. when died he ? wyer . he died a little while afterwards . l. c. j. then duffy would have it conferred on him ? wyer . yes , after reileys decease he would have had it conferred upon him ; and there was a contention between him and the prisoner , who did engage he would bring things to that full maturity , that before the present government were aware he would do the work . l. c. j. how do you know this ? wyer . i know this , because i had an account of it from certain school-fellows that were with me in ireland , then studying in rome ; they wrote this to me , desiring me i would take a good heart with the rest of my country-men , and assuredly in a short time the kingdom would be relieved , and the irish restored to their former patrimonies . l. c. j. this you speak of their information . what do you know of your own knowledge ? wyer . all that i know of is , he coming into the friery of armagh — l. c. j. about what time ? wyer . it is either or years ago , and there was a fast there , and i was invited by the friers , being their acquaintance ; one quine one of the friers told him — l. c. j. told whom ? wyer . the prisoner , that he did expect duffy should have been primate ? but the prisoner made answer , 't is better as it is ; for duffy had not the wit to manage the things that i have undertaken for the general good of our religion . l. c. j. now tell me this ? what things were those he had undertaken ? did he explain himself ? wyer . no further than those words : but i did conceive this was his meaning ; because i knew partly of it my self , knowing of the former plot. l. c. j. i ask you only what words came from him ; and you say they were , that duffy had not the wit to manage what he had undertaken for the general good of their religion . wyer . yes ; and then again in his assembly , kept by him , he charged his inferiours to collect such several sums of mony as he thought fit , according to the several parishes and dignities , to assist and supply the french forces when they came over . l. c. j. how know you that ? wyer . i have seen the mony collected ; and i have seen his warrant sub poena suspensionis to bring it in , to redeem their religion from the power of the english government . again , there were those rebels that went to longford — l. c. j. what time were those collections ? wyer . from time to time since he came into ireland . l. c. j. about what time ? wyer . year , year , year ago , and the last year of all . l. c. j. then it was several times , you say ? wyer . yes ; and he procured the macdonels a piece of mony out of the exchequer , pretending to do good service to his majesty ; but he sent them for france , meaning they should improve themselves and bring themselves into favour with the king of france , and come over with the french king to surprize ireland . this one of the said rebels told me . so i have seen the prisoners letter directed to the grand tory flemming , desiring that they should go to france , and he would see them , in spight of all their enemies in ireland , safe ashoar . and flemming should return again a colonel , to his own glory , and the good of his country . mr. att. gen. do you know his hand ? wyer . yes , i do as well as my own . i have seen capt. o neal , son of general o neal , coming every year into ireland , and carrying three regiments to the french king into france ; and he used to come over to ireland every year to get a recruit ; and he did get my brother to go with him , and so much importun'd me , that i could hardly withstand him ; but i did not yield to his desire : he told me it was to improve me for my good ; to improve my self in military discipline , and then i should return for ireland a captain under the french king , to surprize the kingdom and settle the popish religion , and then i should be restored to my estate . l. c. j. who told you this ? wyer . oapt . o neal. and in the mean while , says he , i hear dr. plunket is the only man entrusted in ireland to make these preparations , and get things ready against the french king 's coming , who is to land at carlingford . mr. att. gen. how often were you in the doctor 's company ? wyer . not very often . plunket . i never saw him with my eyes before in all my life . wyer . i have seen him in the priory the first year that he came over to ireland ; and you know the meetings held at george blykes house in the fives ; and i have seen him in his own house . mr. just . dolben . how came you to know the prisoners hand ? wyer . because i was well acquainted with his hand , seeing his hand amongst the priests . mr. just . dolben . did you ever see him write ? wyer . yes , in the priory , and in his own house . mr. just . dolben . how often ? wyer . not often . mr. just . dolben . how often ? wyer . ten or a dozen times : i should know his hand from all the writing in london , if it were among never so many . let me but see it ; i will know it . l. c. j. have you ever heard him own himself primate ? wyer . yes , my lord , he writes himself oliverus armacanus primas & metropolitanus totius hibernioe , that is his stile . l. c. j. who did he say made him primate ? wyer . the pope , my lord. l. c. j. have you heard him say so ? wyer . yes , i heard him discourse of it in the priory . mr. att. gen. he was a publick officer , and they might well know his hand . l. c. j. i believe any body that hath seen us write but a little , would soon know our hands . wyer . his hand is as well known over ireland , as mine is among my acquaintance . l. c. j. well , go on . wyer . during the time of his imprisonment , i have seen his commands to some of his inferiour dignitaries , commanding them sub poena suspensionis , to bring in the monies assessed for bringing in the french army ; and that there was no better time than the time of his imprisonment to bring it in . l. c. j. who were they , you say , that were commanded sub poena suspensionis ? wyer . since his taking , i have seen in the time of his imprisonment his commands to his inferiour dignitaries , not to be forgetful of the monies that were assessed towards the supplying the french army ; and that there was no better time to bring in the french , than when he was in prison . l. c. j. how long ago was that ? wyer . the first of february ( . ) the second and last of it was in july and november last . l. c. j. and this was to bring in the mony ? wyer . yes , to supply the french army . and that there was no better time than during his imprisonment , and they should not be so much suspected . l. c. j. and these mandates you have seen under his hand ? wyer . yes , i have , my lord. mr. att. gen. what do you know of his summoning or issuing out these warrants for lists of men ? wyer . i have not seen any of the warrants ; but the priests have told me they were commanded by his warrants to let him know how many there were in all their parishes from to . mr. att. gen. you say you never saw the mandates ? wyer . no , i did not . mr. scrj. jeff. what do you know about the prisoners viewing the ports ? wyer . i have seen him going about from port to port , to derry , to carriefergus , castle down , and carling ford , and all about . mr. scrj. jeff. when he went to take a view of those ports , can you tell to what purpose he did it ? wyer . yes , i heard it among the church , that he went on purpose to view the sea-ports to know the strength of all the garrisons , and to see which was the most convenient way to bring in the french army . mr. serj. jeff. did you ever speak with the prisoner at the bar about his going ? wyer . no. mr. serj. jeff. what place did he pitch on as most convenient ? wyer . carling ford . mr. att. gen. were you in the prisoners company when he viewed the ports ? wyer . i have seen him go to and fro ; i did not go all the circuit round with him . plunket . did you ever see me at carlingford ? wyer . no plunket . did you ever see me at any other of the ports ? wyer . i have seen you at hamiltons coming back from derry . do you not remember that you lodged at at sir geo. plunket . i never lodged there in my life . sir fr. withings . have you any thing more to say concerning the plot in general ? wyer . no , in general i have not . mr. serj. jeff. he hath not only given an account of the general , but fixed it upon the prisoner . mr. att. gen. dr. plunket , will you ask him any questions ? plunket . you say you remember you saw me at my first coming as primate years ago , and that you were at the priory when i was there ? wyer . yes . plunket . you were invisible to me . l. c. j. if you will ask any question , do ; but do not make these kind of observations . plunket . tell me this , why did not you acquaint some justice of the peace then with what you knew , that which you had heard years ago ? wyer . when i first kn●w it , i was as willing to have it conceal'd as they . l. c. j. what is your question , dr. plunket ? pray tell it us . plunket . he says , my lord , that years ago i had such a design in hand , and he knew the mony was collected for these very ends , and he knew of the design from that same capt. o neal whom i employed and sent abroad ; and that i had a design to bring in the french at carlingford , and went about to all the ports in ireland , and pitched upon that as the most convenient ; and yet it is so inconvenient for the bringing in a foreign force , that any one that knows any thing of the maps of the world , will easily conclude it otherwise . but , i say , my lord , why did not he tell some justice of the peace that i was upon such a design , but let me live in ireland years after , and never spake of it till now ? l. c. j. what say you to the question ? plunket . when he saw me all the time , and to the time of my taking prisoner , and never said one word ; for i was a prisoner months only for my religion , not one word of treason spoken of against me for so many years : why did not he acquaint some justice of the peace with it before ? l. c. j. what religion were you of then ? wyer . i was a roman catholick . plunket . and are you not so now ? wyer . yes , i am so . mr. just . dolben . therefore it will be no wonder that you did not discover it . mr. serj. jeff. but i ask you , why did not you discover it all this time ? wyer . because i was a papist my self : the first that did discover it , he and i did consult about it , i had charged him so to do , and i set him on work ; but he was ill paid for having discovered it : you got him to be trepann'd , that he hath gone in danger of his life for it . plunket . who is that man ? wyer . moyer . sir fr. withins . call henry o neal. ( who was sworn . ) what know you of any design in ireland to introduce the popish religion ? o neal. in august ( ) . bishop tirril came with odd horse-men to vicar-general brady's house , and alighted at the door ; and he gave them there an oath , which they took willingly and freely from hand to hand , to forward the popish plot against the protestant religion , to make an end of them all in one hour from end to end in ireland ; and said he , i will come within two days with an order from the lord oliver plunket ; and you need not be afraid , for the lord oliver plunket and i have sent some gold and mony into france to get men and bring them from france over sea : and do not fear , this will go on in one hour through all ireland from end to end . in september ( ) a little while after , the same meeting was in a place which they call virginia , in the county of connaght , where they took a priest , he is here , and he was with me , and desired me to come up to dublin and discover this ; and there i did discover it to sir john davis ; which is all that i can say : for this plunket i never saw him in my life . mr. jones . you were a papist then ? o neal. yes , i was . mr. jones . are you a roman-catholick still ? o neal. yes , i am . mr. jones . and were you acquainted with all these orders ? o neal. yes . l. c. j. how came you to know of this oath ? o neal. i was in the house with them ; i was concerned to take my oath with them , and i durst not but take the oath . l. c. j. had you the oath of secresie given you ? o neal. yes : and so this priest commanded me to go along to dublin and discover it . mr. serj. jeff. what is his name ? o. neal. john macklegh . sir fr. with. do you know of any other transactions about the plot ? o neal. no , i will not swear for all the world more than i know . sir fr. with. — then call neal o neal. ( who was sworn . ) what do you know of any design carrying on in ireland against the government and the protestant religion ? n. o neal. i will tell you all i know : i was at vicar bradey's house the . of august . l. c. j. what year ? n. o neal. ( . ) and bishop tirril came with horsemen to the house , and went into the house , and discoursed a little while ; and they took their oaths every one round to keep secret the plot , to destroy the protestant religion and the protestants , that they might have their estates again . and he said they did not need to fear : for , said he , you have a very good man to assist you , and that is the lord oliver plunket , and you need not fear but it will go through all ireland . mr. at. gen. will you ask him any questions ? plunket . why did not he discover it before ? mr. serj. jeff. were you a roman-catholick at that time ? n. o neal. yes , and i am so still . mr. paget jury-man . i desire he may be asked how he came to be there ? l. c. j. you say , i think , this was at vicar-general bradey's ; how came you to be there ? n. o neal. i was there several times before that ; for my nurse , or my foster-mother ( i don't know which you may understand best ) was house-keeper to him . l. c. j. were you required to take the oath ? n. o neal. no , my lord , i was acquainted in the house , i had been there two or three weeks before . plunket . why did not you tell it to some justice of the peace ? l. c. j. he was a papist , and so he is now . n. o neal. there were many that were wiser than i , that did not discover it . l. c. j. how old are you ? n. o neal. i believe about two and twenty years old . l. c. j. and this was but in ( . ) mr. att. gen. swear owen murfey . ( which was done . ) come , what say you ? o. murfey . mr. edmond murfey discovered the plot ; he went to one lieutenant baker and did discover the plot to him , that there was a design to bring in the french. l. c. j. speak out aloud , i can't hear you . o murf. all i know is from mr. edmond-murfey ▪ l. c. j. what do you know of any of your own knowledge ? o murf. mr. lieutenant baker told me , that he did hear of the french ▪ l. c. j. speak what you know your self . o murf. if it please your lordship , this is more : i saw that evidence that edmond murfey did produce in ireland , when he was sent to the gaol there ; but without trial or any thing . mr. att. gen. then swear hugh duffy ( which was done . ) speak aloud , and tell my lord what you know of this plot and the prisoner . you know the prisoner , don't you ? duffy . i know him , yes , i know him well enough . l. c. j. what say you more of him ? duffy . my lord , i say , i have seen this dr. oliver plunket raising several sums of mony to carry on this plot ; sometimes s. per ann. sometimes . mr. sol. gen. of whom . duffy . of all the priests in ireland ; of every priest according to his pension and parish . l. c. j. in all ireland ? duffy . yes . l. c. j. and towards the proceedings of the plot ? duffy . it was to give to his agent which was at rome , and for the carrying on the business . mr. att. gen. how come you to know this . duffy . i was servant to dr duffy , who was infinitely beloved by this man : he was father confessor to the queen of spain : there was nothing that happened between them , but i was by all the time . l. c. j. were you chaplain to him ? duffy . yes . l. c. j. you are a papist then ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. this is a friar , my lord. l. c. j. were you in the company with them ? duffy . yes , i was . l. c. j. what did pass there ? duffy . about the plot , how they could confirm the plot : and this man plunket said he could prevail with the king of france and the other with the king of spain . mr. att. gen. pray acquaint my lord particularly when this was , and in what place , and what they said . duff . it was in ( ) ( ) and ) at his own house ; and at he kept or jesuits there , and a matter of a hundred priests . mr. att. gen. what passed in the company ? l. c. j. who else was there ? duffy . the discourse , my lord , was always about the plot , how they could contrive the matter between them ; and so they did conclude afterwards to raise so much mony upon several priests , all the priests in ireland , sometimes s. sometimes . l. c. j. apiece , do you mean ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. what discourse had they about the french at any time ? duffy . yes a hundred times ; he talked several times , that he did not question but he should prevail with the king of france not to invade spain : and i have seen his letter to cardinal bouillon to expostulate with him about the king of france , why he should wage war with the king of spain who was a catholick , but rather should come and redeem ireland out of its heretical jurisdiction . mr. att. gen. did you see the letter ? duffy . yes . mr. att. gen. why , do you know his hand ? duffy . yes i know it as well as i know my own ; i know it if there were a thousand papers together . mr. att. gen. and what was the import of it , pray ? duff . that cardinal bouillon should prevail with the king of france not to invade spain : and the contents of the rest of the letter were , that he did admire he should not rather wage war with the king of england , who hath been an apostate , and help their poor country that was daily tormented with heretical jurisdiction . mr. att. gen. how came you to be in france ? were you employed ? duff . i went to france to live there in a covent . plunk . did cardinal bouillon shew you my letter ? duff . yes . plunk . what year ? duff . ( . ) mr. att. gen. pray sir , you were speaking of raising of mony ? duff . yes . mr. att. gen. did you see any precept about it ? duff . yes , i have seen several procepts ; i was curate to one father murfey ; and while that man was with dr. oliver plunket , and other jesuits , i did officiate in his place , and he sent his letters to me to raise s. and s. a time , several times . l. c. j. you your self ? duff . yes . mr. att. gen. what for ? duff . it was to send to dr. _____ . who was at rome . mr. att. gen. did you send any mony that you know of ? duff . yes . mr. att. gen. tell what time you gave the mony your self . duff . in ( ) ( ) and . mr. att. gen. where ? duff . at his own dwelling-place at _____ mr. just . jones . of what quality was the prisoner amongst you ? duff . he was primate of all ireland . mr. just . jones . under whom ? duff . under whom ? under the pope . mr. just . jones . how do you know he was so ? duff . we had it in his writings . l. c. j. did he stile himself so in his letters ? duff . yes , if he writ but to the least man in the country , he would write , oliverus armacanus primas totius hibernioe . l. c. j. and so you always understood him ? duff . yes . mr. att. gen. were you present at any of the general consultations or meetings ? duff . yes , i was . mr. att. gen. what number might meet at that time ? duff . five hundred men and women . mr. att. gen. where was this ? duff . at clouds . mr. att. gen. what was the occasion and design of that meeting ? duff . confirmation from the bishop . mr. att. gen. and what was done there besides ? duff . the second thing was , that the gentlemen of the three counties should conclude together about this matter . l. c. j. about what ? duff . about joining the french and spanish together . mr. just . dolben . where was that meeting ? duff . in the county of monaghan . mr. just . dolben . was the prisoner there ? duff . yes , he was the chief man. l. c. j. when was this . duff . in ( ) to the best of my knowledge . mr. just . dolben . were you there your self ? duff . yes . mr. att. gen. what was the transaction of that day , besides the sacrament of confirmation ? duff . it was agreed that the gentry of armagh , monaghan and conaght should join together ; and then they went into a private council to get a list of all the officers that were in the last rebellion , and those that lost their estates . mr. att. gen. how do you know that ; did you go into the consult ? duffy . yes , i was in the same consult my self , and was as willing to proceed in the matter as any one in the world . l. c. j. where was this ? duffy . within two miles of clouds , at one father house . l. c. j. was that at the time when there were so many persons met ? pray speak what was done there besides confirmation . duffy . why , they were withdrawn aside into a garden ; some stood up , and some sat down ; and oliver plunket stood in the middle of them all as a prelate , and every one kneeled before him and kissed his hand . mr. att. gen. what was then said ? duffy . then they did consult and gave special order to some of them to get a list of all the officers in the late rebellion , and that losed their estates , and that they should be more forward than others to proceed in that wicked design . l. c. j. what was that design ? duffy . to destroy all the protestants together . mr. att. gen. was it to mingle the irish , and spanish , and french army together ? duffy . yes , it was . mr. att. gen. did you hear the prisoner speak about it ? duffy . yes , and he made a speech before them concerning our own faith and religion . mr. att. gen. was there any mention of mony at that time ? duffy . it was , that every man of them that could dispose of mony should provide some for those gentlemen that would soon come into ireland . mr. serj. maynard . who were those gentlemen ? duffy . the french army and the spanish army together . mr. att. gen. were you at any other meeting ? duffy . no. mr. att. gen. after he was taken , do you know of any order he sent out to gather mony ? duffy . yes , at the assizes of dalkieth , i think it was in june two years ago , he was apprehended — mr. att. gen. indeed he was first apprehended as a very busie papist . duffy . i have seen two or three several ordors to raise mony , and for the same purpose ; and that it was the only time to bring the matter to an end when he lay in gaol himself . mr. att. gen. was that the effect of the letter ? duffy . yes ; and that the french and spanish kings should take this advantage that now was offered whilst he was in prison . mr. just . jones . you say some mony was sent to dr. cray ? duff . yes . mr. just . jones . to what end ? duffy . to comply with this design . mr. jones . where was that dr. cray ? duffy . he was at rome , he was made a bishop there . mr. att. gen. who employed him there ? duffy . this man employed him always , l. c. j. what was his name ? duffy . cray . mr. jones . you say some of the priests paid some . some . duff . yes . mr. jones . did the lay gentry agree to pay nothing ? duffy . i don't know for the gentry . l. c. j. but i think you paid something your self ? duffy . yes , i paid for two or three years my self . l. c. j. and that was for the design ? duff . yes , for the french & spanish army , & all the purposes together . mr. att. gen. what do you know of any precept to be given in of all sorts of persons of such an age ? duffy . i gave a list of the age of every person from to . mr. att. gen. by whose order ? duffy . by his order . m. serj. jeff. to whom did you give it ? duffy . to dr. plunket . mr. serj. jeff. that is , to the prisoner ? duffy . yes ; out of my own precinct . mr. att. gen. had you an order from him ? duffy . yes , it was directed to the parish-priest ; and i being curate in his place , received the order . sir fr. with. to what purpose was it ? duffy . to know what men in ireland were able to bear arms. m. just . jones . what was the number contained in your list ? duffy . . mr. just . jones . what in one parish ? duffy . yes . mr. serj. jeff. what was the parishes name ? duffy . coghan . mr. att. gen. do you know any thing of his going to view the ports ? duff . i accompanied him to carlingford , mr. att. gen. did you ? duff . yes , in person i did . mr. serj jeff. what did he say ? duff . he went round about the place where some of the custom-ships come in ; there was a great castle there near the sea , and he went to view the place , and could not get a boat : and there was a great talk of carlingford to be one of the best havens in ireland ; there was no great garrison at the place , and any ship might come to the gates of the town and surprize it , being a little town . mr. att. gen. what did he conclude upon that ? duff . that he might get the french army to land safely there . mr. att. gen. what do you know of delivering any amunition and arms ? duff . he did send some of this mony to get amunition into ireland . plunket . you say you were murfey's curate ; can you shew any such institution as you say came to you to raise mony ? duff . i could have brought them , but i thought it needless . plunket . can you name any other person i received mony from ? duff . i have seen your paper of the county of monaghan . plunk . have you seen any of them pay any monies ? duff . yes , i have seen twenty of them pay mony . mr. just . dolben . why , you are acquainted with this man , are you not , mr. plunket ? plunk . my lord , i believe i have seen him . mr. just . dolben . don't you know he was chaplain to bishop duffy ? plunket . no ; i never was in his company . mr. serj. jeff. pray tell him what time of the year it was that you were at carling ford . duffy . it was at the end of the year ( ) and the beginning of the year ( . ) mr. att. gen. pray , if you can recollect , was you once , or twice , or twenty times in his company ? duff . as i am a christian , i have been a hundred times in his company . and when you were creating priests , you would always send for me to be present ; and i wonder how the man should forget himself ? plunket . i do not say i have not seen him , or that i am a stranger to the man ; but in the company of bishop duffy i never saw him , nor i never sent him orders to pay any mony : and if he did pay any mony , he might shew the order . mr. serj. jeff. if he did pay any mony , you did ill to take it . mr. att. gen. pray let him have fair play to ask any questions . mr. soll. gen. tell how you came to remember that you saw him at sir nich. plunkets . duff . dr. duffy did send me to sir nicholas plunkets , and i met dr. plunket as i was coming out of the city . i had been half a year at the spanish embassadours , and he sent me for ireland again , and then i lived at the convent in dublin ; and then when i knew that he would come to town , i went to rings end , where the ships came in , to meet him . plunk . you say you were with him at my house ? duff . yes . plunk . if you were , you were invisible : but i ask you , why did not you tell this to some justice of the peace ? mr. just . dolben . good mr. plunket , he tells you he was as willing to forward it then as you . l. c. j. how come you now to change your mind ? duffy . i went into france in ( ) and i was not a year there altogether ; but when i have seen how the poor people there are brought into such slavery by the french king , i thought of it , and had rather the devil should reign over us , than the frenchman . mr. just . dolben . he gives you a very good rational account why . duff . i have been at sir nicholas plunkets , and dr. patrick plunkets , where there fell some variance about something this man had done to father duffy . says bishop duffy , i might have had you drawn and quartered , if i were as ill a man as you : and i might have been primate of ireland , if i would have undertaken those things that you undertook . upon that , says sir nicholas plunket , what is that ? why , it was said it was to raise men in ireland at any time whenever the french or the spanish king should wage war with england , scotland or ireland . and this man did confess before my face to father duffy , that it was not only to exalt himself , but all the roman clergy , and all the gentry that had lost their estates . plunk . mr. duffy , one word with you ; is not this out of malice to me for correcting some of the clergy ? duff . you had nothing to do with me , for i was a friar . mr. att. gen. swear edmond murfey . ( which was done . ) tell your whole knowledge of dr. plunket and the irish plot. murf. may it please you my lord. i was one of the first discoverers of this plot ; but of nine witnesses , i have but one in town . l. c. j. well , tell your own knowledge . murf. now i beg your lordship as to dr. plunket , that you will respit it till next term , i could bring ten witnesses . mr. att. gen. do you speak your own evidence . murfey . i refer it to the king and council what evidence i have given . l. c. j. do not trouble your self , be directed a little ; you are here now to speak what you know concerning any treasons , or any other matters against the king , done by dr. plunket ; speak your own knowledge ; for as to other witnesses we do not call you . murfey . if i be called in question for this evidence — mr. att. gen. come , sir , you have been at the spanish embassadors lately , answer my question : have you ever been with plunket in ireland ? murf. yes , sir. mr. att. gen. have you ever heard him own himself primate of ireland ? murf. yes , titular primate . mr. att. gen. under whom did he claim that authority ? under the king , or under the pope ? murf. i think he could not be under the king at all . mr. att. gen. under whom then ? murf. it must be either the king or the pope . l c. j. answer me directly . did he claim to be titular primate under the pope ? murf. i suppose he did . l. c. j. was he reputed generally so to be ? murf. yes , my lord. mr. att. gen. mr. murfey , remember what you swore before the grand jury ; pray recollect your self whether that be true , and tell all . l. c. j. you are upon your oath , you must speak the truth and the whole truth , you must not mince or conceal any thing . mr. serj. jeff. were you sworn before the grand jury ? murf. i was sworn before the king and parliament . mr. serj. jeff. did you give in any evidence to the grand jury ? murf. yes , i did . mr. serj. jeff. was that you swore before the grand jury true , upon your oath ? murf. i can't say but it was . mr. serj. jeff. repeat it , tell my lord and the jury what it was , and tell the truth . murf. i have forgot it . mr. att. gen. why then i would ask you a little ; you remember i was by , and 't is no laughing matter , mr. murfey , you will find it so . what do you know of any orders issued out by mr. plunket , to raise mony from the priests ? murf. i know there was orders , and i took the orders my self in my hand . mr. att. gen. from whom had you those orders ? murf. from another , and not from him . mr. att. gen. under whose hand were those orders ? murf. they were from the primate . mr. at. gen. did you see any order under plunket's hand for raising of mony ? murf. no , but under the vicar-generals , by his authority , as i suppose . mr. att. gen. upon your oath , did you not swear before the grand jury , that you saw the orders under his hand ? murf. no , i did not : or i was mistaken , for it was only by his direction . mr. att. gen. pray had you any converse with o. plunket about the raising of mony ? murf. o. plunket about the raising of mony ! mr. att. gen. yes , that is a plain question . murf. it was about other matters i conversed with him . mr. att. gen. but did you converse with him about mony ? murf. no , not about the mony . mr. att. gen. upon your oath , did you converse with him about bringing in the french ? mr. serj. jeff. declare the truth , come . l. c. j. come , don't trifle ; what discourse have you had with the prisoner about raising of mony , or bringing in the french ? either of them , sir. murf. i know this , if the d. of york and d. of ormond had proceeded according to their intentions , it was a general expectation at the same time , that all the french and irish would come and fall upon the english nation , as i understood . l. c. j. pray answer the question directly , you must not come and think to trifle with the court , you must speak the truth , you are sworn to it ; you must not come to quibble and run about to this and that and t'other , but answer directly : have you had any discourse with the prisoner about orders for raising of mony in ireland ? murf. yes , i have seen orders from his vicar-genral for the raising of mony . l. c. j. hath he owned them to be by his direction ? murf. not before me , but others he has . mr. att. gen. have you seen any mony paid to him ? murf. to whom ? mr. att. gen. to plunket . murf. to the vicar-general i have . l. c. j. but to plunket . murf. none to plunket . l. c. j. have you had any discourse with him at any time about the raising of mony , which the vicar-general gave order for ? murf. i have had discourse with the vicar-general . l. c. j. sir , don't trifle , have you had any with him . murf. with him ? l. c. j. yes , with him . murf. yes , i have had some discourse with him . l c. j. tell me what that discourse was ? murf. i think it was about this . if the d. of york , and the d. of monmouth fell out together , that he had some men to raise about that matter , and if the d. of monmouth would raise the protestant religion — m att. gen. you see he hath been in spanish hands . l. c. j. were you a protestant , sir ? murf. no , i am a priest . mr. serj. jeff. he is to seek yet . murf. i am indifferent whether i be protestant or a papist . mr. att. gen. my lord , he is a priest in orders , and so hath acknowledged himself . murf. yes , i am a priest , but it makes me forget my self to see so many evidences to come in , that never knew plunket . l. c. j. sir , you refuse to answer those questions that we put to you here . murf. what i said before the parliament i answer punctually . l. c. j. you are asked questions here , and produced as a witness , will you answer directly or not ? murf. yes , i will. l. c. j. then let me hear what discourse you had with the primate plunket concerning any mony raised by him or his vicar-general . murf. may it please your lordship , first of all i did not impeach primate plunket , but the officers and justices of the peace . mr. jones . had you any discourse with him , yea , or no ? murf. that he should find so many catholicks in ireland if the d. of york and the d. of monmouth fell out . mr. just . jones . why it plainly appears what you drove at at first , to put off this tryal if you could . l. c. j. the papists in england have been at work with you . mr. serj. jeff. i perceived this gentleman was very busie looking upon his hat , i desire he may be searched if he have no paper about him . mr. att. gen. mr. solicitor and my self heard the evidence he gave to the grand jury . then he went out of the court and would scarce be perswaded to come back again . mr. att. gen. we both heard him , and he gave the fullest evidence , much suller to all instances , and particulars of this high treason , much suller than duffy to the grand jury . afterwards about weeks ago the tryal coming on , he ran away and lay hid , i took a great deal of pains to find him out , and sent messengers about ; at last i heard he was got to the spanish embassadors , i sent , and they spied him in the chappel ; but the spanish embassadors servants fell upon the messenger and beat him ; the embassador was first sent to about it , and his excellency promised that he should be brought , and when he was found he told me but the last night , that all he had sworn before the grand jury was true , and he was ready to make it out again . l. c. j. and now he says , he knows not what he said then , and pray take notice of that . murfey . i told the grand jury this , that my lord plunket had a design to get or men in ireland , if the d. of york and the d. of monmouth should fall out . mr. att. gen. did you tell a word of that to the grand jury ? murfey . yes , sir , or i was mistaken . mr. att. gen. not one word of that did he then say . l. c. j. do you own this man , dr. plunket , to be of your religion ? mr. serj. jeff. do you know this seeker ? plunk . he says himself he is indifferent to be a protestant or a papist . mr. serj. jeff. i will only try you by one question more , for you are sought out , and it may be you may be found ; do you know how many men he was to raise in ireland ? remember what you said to the grand jury . murf. men. l. c. j. what were they to do ? murf. for establishing if occasion should be — mr. serj. jeff. establishing , establishing what ? murf. of the romish religion . mr. serj. jeff. well , so far we have got men to establish the romish religion , what , was plunket to do this ? murf. as far as i understood . mr. just . jones . and you understood it by himself ? murf. i received letters from the vicar general to get so much mony collected , and assoon as i got the letters to my hands , i sent them to a privy councellor . l. c. j. do you not know that he was ingaged to assist the french army ? murf. i do not know that by him , but by others . mr. just . dolben . did you ever discourse with him about it ? murf. i did discourse with him about several matters . mr. just . dolb. about the french army ? murfey . yes . l. c. j. do you know that he did endeavour to bring them into ireland ? murf. i had a correspondence in france at the same time — l. c. j. with whom ? murf. with one mac carty . l. c. j. and do you know that he had correspondence in france ? murf. yes , i know that . mr. just . dolb. with whom had plunket correspondence in france ? murf. he had correspondence with dr. cray , and others in france as i understood by others . mr. just . dolb. was the end of that correspondence to bring men from france into ireland ? murf. yes , so far as i understand . mr. just . dolb. you understood the letters when you read them , did you not ? murf. i know not how these people come to swear this business , whether they had not malice against him — mr. att. gen. well , sir , pray give you your evidence , we will take care of the rest . mr. just . dolb. i reckon this man hath given the best evidence that can be . l. c. j. yes , it is evidence that the catholicks have been tampering with him . mr. serj. jeff. i desire he may be committed my lord , because he hath fenced from the beginning . [ which was done accordingly . ] mr. att. gen. swear john mac legh . [ which was done . ] sir fran. wyth . tell my lord and the jury what you know of any plot in ireland to bring in the french. mac legh . i was a parish priest in ireland in the county of monaghan , and dr. oliver plunket received several sums of mony in ireland , and especially in the diocess where i am . i raised some of it , and paid him s. at one time , and s. another time , in the year ( ) i paid him s. in the year ( ) i paid him s. and it was about july , and it was for the better advancement of the french coming in . mr. jones . did he tell you that the mony was to be employ'd that way ? mac legh . yes , that the mony was to be kept for arms and amunition for the roman catholicks in ireland . l. c. j. before you paid it , did you receive any order from him ? mac legh . yes , i received an order sub poena suspensionis , and there was a publick order throughout ireland , or we would not pay it ? nay several would not pay it , and they were to be suspended . plunk . can you shew any of the orders under my hand ? mac legh . yes , i can shew them , but only they are afar off , i did not expect to have them asked for . plunk . have you no superiors of your own ? mac legh . yes , but you being lord primate , you could suspend bishops and inferiour clergy together . plunk . when was this ? mac legh . in the years ( ) and ( . ) plunk . what is the reason you kept it secret all this while ? mac legh . in the year ( ) i did discover it to one mr. o neal , who i sent to dublin to discover this plot. i was in france my self , my lord. plunk . how many years is it since you returned from france ? mac legh . in may in the year ( . ) plunk . why did you not speak all this while till now ? mac legh . i did send one mr. henry o neal to dublin , for i durst not go , lest i should have been suspended and excommunicated . mr. att. gen. this is the priest that henry o neal speaks of . l. c. j. is not this a very good reason ; if he had come to dublin to discover , you would have suspended him . plunk . but my lord , then he might have shewn my suspension and brought me into a premunire . mr. serj. jeff. if you please , doctor , let us who are for the king have done with him first . i would ask you another question sir , were you at one vicar bradeys house ? mac legh . yes , i was . mr. att. gen. tell what was done there . mac legh . there was bishop tyrrel came there with horsemen well mounted and armed , he came into the house about . in the morning , and staid till about at night . i was very much among them , and was as willing to be of the plot , as themselves . mr. att. gen. tell what was done there . mac legh . there bishop tyrrel said , that he had order from dr. oliver plunket and others , to pertake of the plot to bring in the french , and subvert the government in ireland , and destroy the protestant religion and the protestants . mr. att. gen. was there an oath given ? mac legh . yes , they were all put to their oaths , which they did take willingly to keep it private during their lives time , and the reason was they were to have their estates during their lives time . mr. serj. jeff. now tell us when this was . mr. att. gen. my lord , henry o neal and phleem o neal speak to the same purpose . mr. serj jeff. do you remember whether henry o neal was there ? did he take the oath of secresie ? mac legh . yes . mr. att. gen. what do you know of any letters from plunket ? mac legh . in france i landed at brest , and going through britany , i met with bishop tyrrel and dr. cray , who was my lord oliver plunkets agent , and duke john of great britany came into them ; for he heard of these bishops being newly come out of rome , sent for them , and i being a priest of tyrrels diocess , i went along with them , and they were well accepted , and shewed dr. oliver plunkets conditions with the king of france , which was this ; to get dublin and london-derry , and all the sea-ports into their own hands , to levy war and destroy the protestant religion , and that they should have him to protect them during his life-time . l. c. j. did you see those conditions ? mac legh . a copy of them i did , the governour of britany did shew them to the bishop . mr. serj. jeff. what language were those conditions in ? mac legh . they were in latine , sir. mr. serj. jeff. was edmond murfey put out of the diocess . mac legh . not as i know of . l. c. j. what do you know of his being primate ? upon what conditions was he made primate . mac legh . he was made primate by the election of the king of france . and upon his election , he made those conditions with the king of france , to raise men to join with the french , to destroy the protestant religion . mr. just . jones . you know that man , dr. plunket ? plunk . yes , my lord. mr. att. gen. will you ask him any questions ? plunk . none , but what i asked the others . mr. just . dolben . then if that is all , he hath given a good answer to that already , he was as forward then as the rest . mr. att. gen. then swear john moyer , ( which was done . ) mr. just . jones . what do you know concerning any plot in ireland , and dr. plunkets being in it ? moyer . i know him first , my lord , to be made primate of ireland , ingaging that he should propagate the roman faith in ireland , and restore it to the catholick government , and i know the time by relation , that i came to rome within two months after his being made primate of ireland upon the same conditions , that have been related to you , and i was brought into the convent of st. francis in rome by one father , and this father was very intimate with cardinal spinola , and when he used to go abroad he used to carry me along with him as a companion , and there i found several of the roman cardinals say , that the kingdom of ireland should come under the catholick government by the way and means of the lord primate plunket . mr. att gen. what do you know of your self ? moyer . as i was coming then from rome , i happened to come into a convent of the order of st. francis , and there came out of ireland a young gentleman of the family of the o neals , who hath been my lord primates page . plunket . i never had a page . moyer . you termed him so my lord in ireland , and as i came , this young man had a pacquet of letters with him , as though they were commendations to enter him into the colledge de propaganda fide , directed to the secretary of that colledge . and thinking them to be letters of recommendation , an old father , called one thomas crawley , and i thought it not prejudicial to open the seal ; and the contents were these , i translated them years ago , and here are the contents following , if you please they may be read , i will do my best to read them in english , the original were in latine , and some phrases in italian . and when i was surprized by mr. murfey the last year , and taken suddenly , all my papers were taken away before i could return back again , by the soldiers and the tories , i only kept a copy of this letter i had in english as near as i could , and if i did not diminish any thing by the translation ; upon the oath i have taken , i have not put any thing in it , but what the contents of the letter were . l. c. j. was that letter under his own hand ? moyer . my lord cannot deny that . plunket . do you know my own hand writing ? moyer . does your lordship deny , that i know your hand ? plunket . pray sir will you answer it . moyer . yes , i do very well . plunket . when did you leave ireland ? moyer . i will tell you that , my lord , 't is some or years ago . mr. serj. jeff. you were giving an accompt of the letter , read it . moyer . here is the contents , illustrissime domine , it was directed to seignior who is now secretary of the colledge de propaganda fide , ( so then he read his paper . mr. sol. gen. you say , you translated that out of a letter under the prisoners own hand . moyer . yes , i translated it immediately , and to prove it , i have statutes which his lordship made in the general national council , which are under your own hand , my lord. mr. sol. gen. when did you make this translation ? moyer . five years ago . mr. sol. gen. where did you make it ? moyer . i made it out of the original in ireland . mr. sol. gen. where is the original ? moyer . when i was taken by mr. murfey and mr. hethrington the last year , the souldiers and tories came and took them away with other papers i had of the same business . l. c. j. was the paper you translated that from , of his hand writing ? moyer . no , my lord , the paper i took this out of , was a copy of the original . l. c. j. was the original of his hand writing ? moyer . yes , it was . l. c. j. where did you take it ? moyer . in caprennica , when i met with my lords page . l. c. j. what made you take a copy of it ? moyer . it was in latine and italian , and i translated it afterwards . l. c. j. and the english father , you say , made bold to open it . moyer . yes , because he thought 't was a letter of recommendations , but the original of the statutes made at clouds , i did take the original and gave a copy to the page . l. c. j. have you the original here ? moyer . yes , my lord , under his own hand . plunk . that 's another thing . l. c. j. but we would know that other thing . mr. serj. jeff. my lord , i desire that he would produce it , 't is his own hand writing , see whether his grace can deny it . moyer . the signing of it is his own hand writing , i got the writing along with the letter , and thinking to have a copy of the one as as well as of the other ; it was the statutes i got , and i never knew i had them till i was in madrid in spain . then the paper was shewn to the prisoner . plunk . my lord , 't is my hand . moyer . indeed , my lord , 't is your own hand . mr. serj. jeff. he owns it . moyer . and there is an order in those statutes , wherein ireland was bound to send so much mony to rome upon such a design . the the witness read the title in latine . mr. just . dolb. look out that clause for the raising of the mony . moyer . my lord , 't is that i look for . cum toti clero in hibernia necessarium sit . mr. just . dolb. that is but negotia generally . mr. serj. maynard . that was to solicite their affairs . mr. att. gen. 't is l. in the whole . plunk . is it l ? moyer . 't is in figures , a and two [ . ] plunk . my lord , this is counterfeit , 't is put in by other ink. mr. just . dolb. like enough so . l. c. j. nothing more ordinary , yau leave a blank for for the sum , and then , may be , you put it in with other ink. mr. just . dolb. how much do you say was the mony , dr. plunket ? plunk . my lord , every agent that is kept at rome hath a maintenance , as all countries have their agents at rome . mr just . dolb. how much was it ? plunk . it was l. a year . l. c. j. look you , mr. plunket , consider with your self , or in this case is not farthings difference , but the money was to be raised by your order . plunket . ay , but whether it was not raised to this effect ; there is never a nation where the roman catholick religion is professed , but hath an agent for their spiritual affairs at rome , and this was for the spiritual affairs of the clergy of ireland . mr. serj. jeff. and the letter was for spiritual affairs too , was it not ? plunk . i desire nothing , that is a truth , every nation hath an agent , and that agent must be maintained ; and the reason is this , because we have many colledges beyond sea , and so there is no country of roman catholicks , but hath an agent in rome . l. c. j. you had better reserve your self till by and by , to answer that & the letter together ; for this is but a small part of the evidence . mr. att. gen. about this letter you were speaking of , pray , will you tell what fell out about it . moyer . i will tell you how it fell out afterwards . then i came along into marseilles in france , and there were captains that had as much notice as i had in that letter , for they were discoursing that they would advance themselves in the french kings service , and hoped , that by the king of france's help to have the roman catholick faith set up in their own country ; why , that discourse passed off , for i was mightily afraid of any such thing , because i was of another opinion ; for perhaps i might think the roman catholick faith would flourish as well as ever it did , and hoped so as well as any body else , but not by the sword. as i came to madrid , there came one hugh o donnell , son to o donnell , with letters of recommendation , and those letters were to intitle the young man earl of tyrone , and likewise that his majesty the king of spain should help him for ireland , according to the form of the letters he had . and then as i came for ireland , speedily after there came letters of recommendation to me , that i should present sent my self to my lord primate , to hear confessions , and be heard preach . i came to his lordship at his own house the th . of december ( ) and there he kept me several hours , and approved me ; and the copy of the approbation i have to shew . and after a long dispute we went aside , and went to look father patrick , and there he shewed me such and such things . and after a long discourse i told my lord primate , i see your lordships letter , which you sent by young o neal , in such a place , and he shewed me the contents of it ; and , said i , ay , my lord , 't is a good intention & design , if it can be done without bloodshed ; then my lord mused a little , and , said he , well father francis , ( which is my name in religion , my christian name is john ) pray will you keep it secret , well my lord , said i , you need not fear ; for , said he , what ever i have done herein was not for my own good , but for the publick good of the catholicks . well , said i , 't is well , then does he commend me into the parish of where this mr. murfey here was to put in a bull , that i had from my lord primate , which bull was brought here last year ; and there he proferod me high promotions , if i would further such things , and solicite such gentlemen as i knew would be private in such a business , such as were old commanders among my friends and relations . shortly after this i saw plunket and bishop tyrrel , and captain con o neal practising to bring souldiers ready for ireland , assoon as they could get opportunity . this captain con o neal coming to the place where we kept our priory , and he and his brothers were sons to general o neal. and there captain con comes in the night time and lodges with us , and discoursed with his brother and i , because i was his companion beyond sea , about these matters , that he expected my lord primate and bishop tyrrels coming thither that night , to make some proposals about the church and other assairs . after ten a clock , or thereabouts , my lord primate and bishop tyrrel came with others in their company , and there they and father o neal did consult amongst themselves , that they should send captain con to france , and to barcellona , with such and such instruments ; and sending those instruments away , captain con departs the country and goes for france soon after ; and speedily my lord primate undertook , that he and bishop tyrrel should view munster and vlster , and other parts of ireland , to see how affairs stood . soon after my lord primate calls a general provincial council , and sends out his orders to levy such and such taxes and subsides , and warrants to all the parish priests , that they should give them new lists to know whether the numbers they had sent to rome before , would comply with that list . and then o neal went to view the forts of charlemont and dun gannon , whilest those lords did collect the mony ; the orders i have seen with my own proper eyes , and his own man confessed before the council in ireland that my lord gave them under his hand . mr. serj. jeff. what year was this ? moyer . it was in ( ) to the best of my remembrance : l. c. j. look you sir , was this at a provincial meeting ? moyer . yes , my lord , a general national council , to send over instruments to tell them , that they were ready to assist any foreign army , that should help on the design . l. c. j. and to raise mony ? moyer . yes , my lord. mr. just . dolben . have you paid him any mony ? moyer . i was exempted my self ; but i have seen others . mr. just . dolben . how many ? moyer . i believe . mr. just . dolben . it was not then a secret thing , but openly done by them . moyer . yes , i saw them when they came with orders , there were four priests , and they had a great cloak-bag going with orders up and down . mr. serj. jeff. why were you exempted ? moyer . because i am a regular priest . sir fr. withens . you say you saw the orders for raising of mony , how do youknow for what it was to be employed ? moyer . it was there specified down . plunket . can you shew any of the orders ? moyer . i could not take them , they did not concern me . sir fr. withins . how was it specified ? moyer . to levy so much mony per priest . i cannot remember the particular sum ; but that every priest should give so much towards an agent in rome to solicite their business and forward it . l. c. j. what year was it ? moyer . ( . ) l. c. j. was any of the mony specified for raising an army or bringing in the french ? moyer . it was both for the agent and to summon a national council , to get things ready prepared to entertain and accept the french army when it should come . i am not so good in expressing my self in english . l. c. j. your sence is good , 't is no matter for your expression . mr. jones . what more do you know ? moyer . i know that he had the same council , and that they did agree upon the business , and this i know by one patrick borne , and i being willing that this wicked action should be hindred , sent to the next justice to discharge my self of it , which justice was as favourable to the business as my lord himself was . l. c. j. will you ak him any questions , mr. plunket ? plunket . i desire to know when he left ireland ? moyer . i cannot tell how to number the years , but i think it was in or , to the best of my remembrance it was or years ago . plunket . when did you return ? moyer . i came back in , you know it , my lord. plunket . very well , when did you see the letter with the young man in caprennica ? moyer . in ( . ) plunket . how then did you know my hand which you had never seen ? moyer . i have seen it several times to several instruments , to seignior and i have seen several other letters of your hand . plunket . how did you know my hand ? moyer . i cannot positively say , i then knew your hand , but according to relation , i heard it from those cardinals i conversed with at rome . l. c. j. but now you are acquainted with his hand , is it the same hand which you have seen up and down in writings with his name to ? moyer . yes , my lord it is the very same hand . mr. serj. jeff. i ask you , sir , when you came back again and told him you had seen such a letter under his hand with o neal , did he own it to you ? moyer . yes he did own it , and that he did not do it for his own benefit , but for the publick . mr. serj. jeff. did he desire you to be secret ? moyer . yes , he did , and to be discreet , and he would see me highly promoted . and , my lord , you sent proposals to me , to give me l. that i should not prosecute you , according as they told me , and they gave me one guinny in hand for it . l. c. j. some of it came to the hands of murfey i believe . plunket . my lord , i cannot say any thing to this , my hands are tyed , because my witnesses are not here . my lord , if i had my witnesses and records , i did not care for all these witnesses . l. c. j. but you know , you had time to bring them . plunket . my lord , i desire to know whether this be his hand , ( shewing the paper to mr. moyer . ) moyer . yes , i believe it is . plunket . i desire it may be read . moyer . yes , i am very well satisfied it should . cl. of cr. reads . for my very reverend father anthony guardian of armagh , your letter & citation — 't is dated in july ( . ) plunket . he can best read it himself . cl. of cr. read it right ( the paper being delivered him . ) moyer . my lord , i pity him with all my heart , that a man of my own function , should be brought into question for such things as these are , ( he reads ) very reverend father guardian , 't is dated july ( . ) your paternities paternal letter and citation homeward , i did instantly peruse . as for my lord o. plunket , i wrote a letter to him the day before i saw your reverends last , that he might cause my fame , which is as dear to me as my life , to be recalled ; or i should cause his name to be fixed at every publick place , which by the almighty i will do , nature and all reason compelling me to do it . plunket . my lord , i say this , he says he came to my house when he came over , and i imparted this secret to him , yet you see i had denounced him throughout my whole diocess , and he here calls me by all those names of elemas , simon magus , and barjesus , and 't is impossible if i had communicated such a secret to him , that i would deal so with him . mr. just . dolben . he does not say , you imparted this secret to him , but he says , when he told you of the letter , you answered him , but you seemed surprized and mused first . l. c. j. you seemed to flatter him then , and told him you hoped to see him , the best of his order , highly promoted . mr. just . dolben . how came you to fall out , moyer ? moyer . when first they had this meeting at brantry , seeing a cloud coming , and dreading a war , and the consequencies of it , i went and applied my self to sir hamilton , one of his majesties privy councellors in ireland , and i gave in all my informations december ( . ) mr. just . dolb. and thereupon he denounced you excommunicate ? moyer . yes , and afterwards , when he saw i was in communication and familiar with these privy councellors , then he was certain i had discovered the matter , and then he got a great many devices to get the letters out of my hand . plunket . you shall see under his own hand all the stratagem of this , if i had my witnesses here , you should then see under his own hand , upon what account he fell out with me . pray , my lord , ask him if this other letter be his hand . moyer . i believe it is my own hand . l. c. j. read it . moyer . ( reads ) very reverend , father guardian ( then speaking ) my lord , you know that i was loth to discover my self , being among people knowing of the plot. l. c. j. well , read it over . moyer . ( reads ) the . of april ( ) i was somewhat comforted by your letter . but now i hope your reverence hath considered what wrong i have sustained , by my envious adversaries calumnies , only for standing , as i have a soul to save , for your rights and priviledges , as also for endeavouring to hinder my native countries ruine and destruction . mr. just . dolb. read that again . ( which he did . ) plunket . observe , that i was his adversary , for standing for the rights and priviledges of the fryers . mr. just . dolb. as also for endeavouring to hinder his countries ruine and destruction . l c. j. the one and the other were the reason of your falling out . moyer . ( reads on . ) moyer . my lord , i was i confess a begging fryar , and stood up for the priviledges of the fryars . plunket . did you write any process to rome against me ? moyer . no , i never did it . plunket . my lord , does not he say i was in disgrace at rome ? moyer . no , nothing of that . l. c. j. i don't hear it , but what if he did ? what is that to the purpose . plunket . to shew his contradictions , now he says , i was great in rome , and but then in his letter he says , i was in disgrace at rome . now he says , all that he had against me , was for his fryers , and to hinder the destruction of his country ; because i hindred the fryers to beg there , is the destruction of his country . as he was doing there upon that he fell out with me , and upon that his own superiors sent this order . l. c. j. we can't meddle with your superiors orders , they are no thing before us . mr. serj. jeff. my lord , i think for the present we have done with our evidence . plunket . my lord , to shew what was part of the falling out , i would ask him if he was indicted for any crime , and found guilty by a jury ? moyer . that was for discovering , for i discovered it before . plunket . my lord , he confesses he was convicted for giving powder and shot to the rebels . mr. just . dolben . no , no , he does not say so ; produce the record , if you have any of such thing . moyer . to satisfie the court. mr. serj. jeff. look you , dr. plunket , if you will ask him any questions , that by law he is bound to answer , do it of gods name , we will not interpose , but if you ask him any questions that may tend to accuse himself , we must tell you , he is not bound to answer them . plunk . he hath been convicted and found guilty , he will confess it himself . l. c. j. he is not bound to answer such a question . moyer . it was a tory swore against me , that you did absolve . mr. just . dolb. don't tell us a story of your tories . l. c. j. look you mr. plunket , don't mispend your own time ; for the more you trifle in these things , the less time you will have for your defence , i desire you now to consider , and well husband your time for your defence ; what have you to say for your self ? plunk . my lord , i tell you , i have no way to defend my self , in that i was denied time to bring over my records , and my witnesses , which are or . and if i had them here , i would stand in defiance of all the world to accuse me ; but i have not sufficient time to bring over my records and my witnesses , and i am brought here from out of my native country ; were i in ireland , there both i and they should be known : but when i was to be tried there , they would not appear ; and it is all false and only malice . these men used to call me oliverus cromwellus out of spight . mr. serj. maynard . you are very like him , a destoyer of the government . mr. serj. jeff. were not you acquainted with him ? plunk . this is all i can say , if i had my witnesses here i could make my defence . l. c. j. here are some things , that if you can give an answer to , you will do well to do it ; for they stick close to you . they do testifie against you here , that you did undertake to raise a body of men in ireland , men they speak of out of in your own nation , and all these were to join with the french , for the introducing the religion of the romish church into ireland , and setling that again there . and that you , in order to this , did take a survey of all those roman catholicks that were able to bear arms , from to ; and there is plentiful evidence , that you did go a circuit there to peruse all the towns , and see which might be most convenient for the taking in , and entertaining the french , and landing their forces ; and charlemont , you did design that for one strong place to be taken , and dun-gannon for another , and that you did design the french army to land at carlingford , and all that was with you , tells the reason you gave , why that should be the place , that they might come up with a burdened ship to the very gates of the town , that you did , in order to the entertaining these foreign forces , raise mony , that you did send out your orders sub poena suspensionis to all that were of the roman clergy , and that this mony was received , several of them testified that they paid it to you , and this man hath seen great numbers of persons pay mony to you upon these accounts . all these are treason , what say you to them . it does import you to consider what answer you can give . plunk . my lord , first as to the first point , i answer , that i never received a farthing of mony out of my own district , and but for my own livelihood , and that i can prove by those that have received it for me , that i never received over threescore pound a year in my life , unless some genleman would now and then give me s. for my relief . for , my lord , this is the way in ireland , every priest hath so many families allotted to him , and every roman catholick family gives s. a year ( as they that profess that way , know ) and the priests give me who am superior over them , in my own district , some s. some s. and i never got so much in my life as to maintain a servant , and this was attested before the council in ireland . mr. just . dolb. ay , but the witnesses say , out of your own district you sent into another bishops diocess to collect mony . plunk . my lord , i say i could never get so much as to keep a servant , and till now i never got a farthing out of my own diocess , unless i have been called to an arbitration or some such thing , it may be for my journey and expences or miles they would give me something for my maintenance ; if you should find any thing else , i will be content to suffer ; and if my evidence were brought from ireland , there is nothing but what would be made clear , both under their own hands and by records , and that is all well known , and was attested in his presence before the council in ireland , which threescore pounds was a very small thing to maintain me , and i never had above one servant , and the house i lived in was a little thatch'd house , wherein was only a little room for a library , which was not foot high , where once this fellow came to affront me , because i had hindred him from begging , and that 's for the mony. for the men , i defie any one that ever see me make a list of men in my life , or can produce any list made by my order . i was never in my life at kinsale , at cork , at dun-gannon , at limerick , &c. or those parts of munster which were the chief ports where the french should come in , and not in carlingford , which is the narrow seas in vlster , which any one that knows the world will judg to be a very improper place for the french to land in . 't is all one as to say that the french should come in at a poor place where they could get nothing , it being at the narrow seas , and they never saw me there in their lives . l. c. j. yes , one does say , he was with you . plunk . well , one does say he saw me there , but if i had my witnesses here , i could prove he was a friar , and declared an apostate by his own provincial , as this gentleman is , and because i hindred them to beg in my districts , therefore they have this malice against me , that is all . well , my lord , that is for that : i was never in my life in connaght ; and they cannot say , i took any list in vlster , nor was twelve miles in munster in my life : but thus , my lord , sometimes there would be , as our way is , so many families assigned to every priest , ( and this is the plain truth ) this priest perhaps complains to me of the inequality , my companion near me hath , and i have but threescore , which i must rectifie ; though i never knew but one of these complaints . and if i had my witnesses from ireland , and the records , i would defie all these witnesses together . for my sending to rome , i had never an agent in rome for these seven years past , because i was not able to maintain him , and indeed it was a great shame to us ; because there is never a community of fryers , that hath a colledge beyond sea , but hath some agent at rome . l. c. j. 't is a shame to have one there , not to want one . mr. just . dolb. well , if you have witnesses , i cannot tell what to say . plunk . if i had gotten but to the latter end of the term , i had desied them altogether . and your lordship should have seen under their own hands what they were . l. c. j. you forget this all this while , your own letter , wherein this matter is , that you had searched the towns and considered it . mr. att. gen. he does deny there was such a letter , he does not own there was such a letter . plunk . i my lord , i never did write such a letter . and that young man that he speaks of , i could prove , if i had my witnesses , that he never was in any service or company in ireland , nor writ any letters by him . l. c. j. did you never send any letter by one o neal ? plunk . no my lord , but he went over a begging . moyer . this young mans brother in law will testifie , that he was your lordships page . plunk . i have witnesses that he came there begging , naked , and was sick months , and went over a begging , and was at rome as a stragler . moyer . call hanlet , ( who came in ) sir fr. wyth . did you know neal o neal ? hanlet . yes . sir fr. wyth . whose servant was he ? hanl. my lord plunket sent him to rome ; he was sent there with his letters , and i saw the young man and the letters . mr. jones . did he come a begging there ? hanl. no. plunk . where did you see him ? hanl. at mant. plunk . where is that ? hanl. in france . plunket . and you saw him with my letters ? hanl. yes . plunk . and this man says , the letters were opened at caprennica , because he thought they were letters of recommendation . hanl. why , he went that way afterwards , and they were not opened when i saw them . mr. serj. jeff. did you know he was the doctors servant ? hanl. yes , he was . plunk . did you see him in my service ? hanl. i saw him in mant. mr just . dolb. how do you know he was the bishops servant . hanl. because he shew'd me his letter . l. c. j. was he owned for his servant , and was he taken for his servant . hanl. yes . plunk . did he go on foot or on horsebak . hanl. he went on foot . plunk . he was in a poor condition in a place not above four miles from rome , that i can prove . l. c. j. did he beg as he went ? hanlett . no. l. c. j. mr. plunket , if there is any question you will ask of the witnesses ; or if there be any evidence you would give your self , this is your time for the doing of it ; if not , we must leave your case to the jury , who have heard the evidence all along . plunk . only this , my lord , your lordship sees how i am dealt with . first and foremost , i have not time to bring my witnesses , or my records , which if i had , i would not weigh one farthing to leave my cause with any jury in the world . besides all this , i am brought out of my own native country , where these men lived , and i lived , and where my witnesses and records are , which would shew what these people are . i sent by the post and did all that i could , and what can i say when i have not my witnesses against these people , they may swear any thing in the world ; you cannot but observe the improbability of the thing in it self , and unto what a condition i am brought . my lord , my life is in iminent danger , because i am brought out of my own country , where these people would not be believed against me . mr. sol. gen. my lord , i think this matter lies in a narrow compass , the evidence hath been long ; i would only repeat the short heads of that which hath been given at large . he is indectid for a conspiracy to kill the king , the overt act is an endeavour to introduce a forreign power into ireland , to raise an army , and levy war there ; and the proof of it hath been very full . the proof in general , that there was a plot to introduce the french , is plain by all the witnesses , and the proof in particular upon this person at the bar , hath been as plain as any thing can be . they prove to your lordship in general , that there was an expectation that the french should come in , that there was an invitation of florence wyer the first witness , to go over into france , and speedily he should have a command upon his return , in ireland , that there were preparations ; for this appears by the oath of secrecy given to several men . forty men that came along with bishop tyrrel to keep it private during their lives ; and there was a farther proof of that general conspiracy by duffy , that when there was a general meeting of so many thousand people for confirmation , there was by the gentlemen at that meeting a secret consultation how to carry on the design , and how to list men , and to look out the old officers in the late rebellion , and to see what posture they were in , as to the management of this design , and this comes now particularly to the prisoner who was by at this consultation , so the witnesses do tell you . but that that comes nearer to him , is , that he did issue out orders for the raising of mony , and that he did raise mony pursuant to those orders , and did receive mony for that very purpose ; this is proved by three witnesses , duffy , and mac legh , who paid the mony , and by moyer the last witness , who saw him receive it from several persons . this is positive upon him ; nay , they say farther , that there was a list made of the several men , in the several parishes , that were able to bear arms upon occasion , from sixteen to sixty , and there was a list of a matter of threescore thousand men that were ready upon any occasion to rise for the purpose , and this list was delivered over into the hands of the prisoner at the bar. there is one witness , duffy , that says farther , that he saw a letter under his hand in france to the cardinal bouillon , to invite the french king into ireland , and he did wonder that he should spend his time and blood in wars against spain , which was a roman catholick , and not come into ireland to extirpate the hereticks . and this letter is confirmed by another letter , which was seen by moyer , a copy of which is produced , which he translated from the original in latin , and the letter was sent to rome by neal o neal , whom the prisoner says he had no concern for , but to give him some recommendations . plunket . i gave him no recommendations . l. c. j. no , he says he did not give him any , nor sent any letter by him . mr. soll. gen. then he urged , that he went along begging by the way , but 't is proved he was sent by him , and sent with letters , and that by his brother in law , who met him at mants . and 't is proved by moyer , who saw the letter opened , taking it to be but a common letter of recommendation , he read the letter and took a copy of it , and translated that copy , which translation is enough to verifie all the matter which the witnesses have sworn , for 't is agreeing to what he said to cardinal bouillon in his other letter , that it was more proper for the catholick princes to agree together to extirpate heresie , than to vary amongst themselves , that now was the time : for there were threescore thousand men ready to rise upon such an invasion . this is the substance of the letter , and this proves fully the conspiracy this man was ingaged in , his receiving mony , his listing men , and his invitation of foreign princes . and this is fully proved . mr. serj. maynard . and so his viewing the ports too . mr. sol. gen. it was likewise agreed that carling ford should be the port , and 't is like enough to be the port , for 't is a very large port , that ships of the greatest burthen may come up to the town , and the town it self but a weak town . this is the substance of the evidence , and this is proof enough , we think , to convict any man of this fact. mr. serj. jeff. my lord , i shall trouble you but with one word that hath been omitted . i think 't is a cause of great example , and that thing which the prisoner seems to make his excuse hath been answered by a favor and indulgence from the court in a very extraordinary manner . for , in as much as this gentleman would make it a very hard case , that he is brought out of his own country , and hath not his witnesses ; it is very well known that by a particular favor of the court , which is not usual in these cases , he had between five and six weeks time for preparation for his tryal : so that truly as to what does appear , i think all the witnesses that have been examined , are witnesses to be credited , except you gentlemen , of your selves can convict upon your own knowledge these persons of any misdemeanor , which i think you cannot , much less of perjurie . but besides , the witnesses we have produced , all which speak to the plot in general , and four of them fix it upon the person at the bar ; they speak particularly , and every one agrees in circumstances , and that other that spoke mincingly , i put it upon ; it is the greatest evidence that can be . for that person that could come before a grand jury , and there be the main witness , but when he comes here , must be scru'd and pump'd to discover the seventy thousand men . and i suppose you did observe how difficult it was to know of him , whether this person was primate of ireland , or whether it were from the authority of the king or the pope , a very probable thing , that he should be such a one as the king designed to be primate and superintendent of ireland . further , my lord , this i desire to take notice of too , that wyer , the first witness , fixes four particular things upon the prisoner at the bar , which have not yet been taken notice of . first he fixes a discourse with another person that was competitor with him for this very office , bishop duffy , and he gives the reason why he was admitted into the office rather than the other , because he was a man of greater ability to carry on the design , and though he does not give you an account of the design ; yet the rest of the evidence do , and make it to be the design then carrying on . another thing is , he tells you of the sending one into france , that was to come back again in order to this design , i think his name was mac donnel , and then the great tory flemming and he were to come back again colonels in the army that was to be raised . the next person , that fixes it upon him , is mr. han o neal , and he gives the plainest circumstances , that at a time in august when bishop tyrrel came to the house of one bradey with so many men well equipped with such and such arms , and took the oath of secresie ; he himself , but not only he , but the other priest mac legh , was present at the same time , and took the said oath , and he does tell you that that very priest was sent to dublin to discover it at that very time , and so he hath fixed the person , and time , and the business they came about . then mac legh comes and tells you the same thing in every circumstance ; ay , but says the prisoner at the bar , and he would make it to be a great objection , how chance that they have concealed this all the while , and not discovered it to some justice of the peace ? why , says one , i was under your jurisdiction in that place , that is the very reason he gives wherefore he durst not , and says another , i was concerned and as earnest as the prisoner or any body else , but going into france , i observed the slavery that all the subjects were under , under the tyranny of that king , and apprehending that the same king was to come into ireland by the means of these gentlemen ; i was concerned at it , and had rather the devil should reign over us than such an one , and therefore i will discover it . and he said very well i think , that he had rather have the devil to reign ; for it seems to be him , or one in his shape that reigns after that manner . and there are two persons that swear to the very year that they were obliged to raise the mony , and swear positively , they saw his orders sub poena suspensionis , i do not know whether they mean hang'd or suspended from their office. but it seems it was so terrible that it made them pay twenty shillings a piece for three years successively . and there is another gentleman that tells you , that out of a small living , wherein he was concerned only as curate to a third person it had been paid two or three times ; and another , though he was exempt himself from the payment , yet so great a confident was he of the prisoner's at the bar , that he was present when he saw thirty or fourty pay this tax , and whereas the prisoner at the bar would make it thought a strange thing , that he should raise so much mony , who had but a house seven foot high , it seems there is above that thatch'd house a chappel . plunket . there is no chappel . mr. serj. jeff. but now , my lord , that which substantially proves what these witnesses say , is the letter that is sent to rome to the secretary of the college de propaganda fide , which is the last letter that the last gentleman speaks of , wherein he does particularly take notice , that he had taken care to raise such moneys , and view all the ports and places of strength . and , my lord , that which is a very great circumstance to back the evidence of the first letter to the french cardinal bouillon which was taken notice of by the first witness , and there is such a passage in this too , that the catholick princes should not spill one anothers blood , when they might better employ it here in ireland for the propagation of the faith ; this last letter takes particular notice of that very instance too , that instead of drawing their swords against one another , they had better come to promote the catholick faith in ireland . these four witnesses are punctual and precise in every particular circumstance of the case , and against them there is nothing but the common objection . if i had such records , and witnesses here , i could make my defence ; that is , if he had those things that he has not , he might appear to be another man than he is ; but i am sure , as it appears upon the evidence that hath been given by all the witnesses , there is a plain proof and a full proof of every treason laid to his charge . plunket . my lord , i desire these witnesses may be called [ giving in a paper . ] cryer . david fitz-gerard , eustace commines and paul gormar . l. c. j. who gave him this paper , he had it not before ? stranger . i was told that these were good evidences for dr. plunket , and i gave him the names . l. c. j. where are they ? stranger . they are hard by . mr. att. gen. where is eustace commines , for he was one that gave in evidence against the prisoner . [ then paul gormar appeared . ] l. c. j. what would you ask him ? plunket . i desire to know of him , whether mr. moyer did allure and intice him to swear against me ? gormar . indeed , my lord , he never did . l. c. j. will you ask him any more ? gormar . but this , my lord , mr. moyer and i were in discourse , and he said if there was law to be had in ireland , he would shew mr. plunket his share in it . l. c. j. well , what of that ? gormar . my lord , i did come out of ireland to reveal what plots the irish had against the king , and as for this mr. plunket , as i have a soul to save , i never heard of any misdemeanor of him . mr. just . dolben . how came you here to day ? gormar . i was summoned . mr. just . dolb. by whom ? was it the attorney general or plunket that summoned you ? gormar . here is the summons . mr. serj. jeff. it is a common sub poena . plunket . i never sent for him . gormar . it was not against you , they know i had nothing against you , i thought you did more good in ireland than hurt , so i declare it . l. c. j. have you any more witnesses ? if fitz gerard or commines will come , we will hear them . plunket . my lord , i have not any more witnesses . l. c. j. look you , gentlemen of the jury , this gentleman here , mr. plunket is indicted of high-treason , and 't is for conspiring the king's death , and endeavouring to bring the french army into ireland for to invade that kingdom , and to plant the romish religion in that kingdom . you have had evidence against him that hath been fully examined . and these things do seem to be very plain by the witnesses , that he himself hath taken a commission , or a grant , or what you will please to call it , from the pope to be primate of ireland , that he hath taken upon him to make laws as the provincial and that he hath undertaken and endeavoured to settle the popish religion in that kingdom , and in order to that , he hath invited the aid of the french army , and that he hath for the better landing of them , looked out what places were most convenient for them ; that he hath set a tax upon the clergy within his province for the facilitating of all this , and for the making preparations for the entertainment of this army . this the witnesses testifie against him , and that there were some towns , as dungannon and another town , that were to be betrayed to the french. now you must consider concerning these witnesses : if you believe the evidence that hath been given , and which hath been repeated by the kings counsel , and if you believe that he did design to bring in a french army , to establish the roman religion there again , and that he took upon him to raise mony for that purpose , survey'd the ports , and made such provisions , as the witnesses speak of , and was in that conspiracy ; you must find him guilty , i leave it to you , it is a pretty strong evidence , he does not say any thing to it , but that his witnesses are not come over . plunket . i can say nothing to it , but give my own protestation , that there is not one word of this said against me is true , but all plain romance , i never had any communication with any french minister , cardinal , nor other . then the jury withdrew for a quarter of an hour , and being returned gave this verdict . cl. of cr. oliver plunket , hold up thy hand . how say you , is he guilty of the high-treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . plunket . deo gratia. god be thanked . then the verdict was recorded , and the court rose . and the keeper went away with his prisoner . on wednesday . junii , oliver plunket was brought to the bar to receeive his judgment . mr. att. gen. my lord , i pray your judgment against the prisoner oliver plunket . cl. of cr. oliver plunket , hold up thy hand ; thou hast been indicted of high-treason , thou hast been thereupon arraigned , thou hast thereunto pleaded not guilty , and for thy trial hast put thy self upon god and the country , which country hath found thee guilty , what hast thou to say for thy self , why jadgment of death should not pass upon thee , and execution be thereupon awarded according to the law. plunket . my lord , may it please your lordship , i have something to say , which if your lordship will consider seriously , may occasion the courts commiseration and mercy . i have , my lord , for this fact been arraigned in ireland , and brought to my trial there . at the day of my trial all the witnesses voluntarily absented themselves , seeing i had records and witnesses to convince them evidently and shew what men they were , and the prepensed malice that they did bear to me , and so finding that i could clear my self evidently , they absented themselves on the day of my tryal no christian appeared , but hither over they come , and procure that i should be brought hither , where i could not have a jury that knew the qualities of my adversaries , or who knew me , of the circumstances of the places , times , and persons ; the juries here as i say were altogether strangers to these affairs , and so , my lord , they could not know many things that conduce to a fair tryal , and it was morally impossible they should know it . i have been accused principally and chiefly for surveying the ports , for fixing upon carlingford for the landing of the french , for the having of seventy thousand men ready to join with the french , for collecting mony for the agents in this matter , for the assisting of the french and this great utopian army . a jury in ireland consisting of men that lived in that country , or any man in the world that hath but seen ireland in a map , would easily see there was no probability that that should be a place fit for the french to land in , though he never was in ireland , yet by the map , he would see they must come between the narrow seas all along to vlster , and the rocks , and such places would make it very dangerous ; and by their own confession it was a poor town , and of no strength , a very small garrison , which had not been so , if it had been a place of any consideration . and whereas i had influence only upon one province , as is well known , though i had the title of primate of all ireland , as the archbishop of canterbury hath of all england ; yet the arch bishop of york will not permit him to meddle with his province ; and 't is well known by the gentry there , and those that are accustomed to the place ; that in all the province of vlster , take men , women and children of the roman catholicks , they could not make up seventy thousand . this , a jury there , my lord , had known very well , and therefore the laws of england , which are very favourable to the prisoner , have provided that there should be a jury of the place where the fact was committed , as sir thomas gascoine , as i have heard , had a yorkshire jury , though he was tryed at london . and then after my coming here , i was kept close prisoner for six months , not any christian was permitted to come at me , nor did i know any thing , how things stood in the world. i was brought here the third of may , to be arraigned , and i did petition your lordship to have some time for my tryal , and i would have had it put off till michaelmass , but your lordships did not think sit to grant so long , but only till the eighth of this month , when my witnesses who were ready at the sea side , would not come over without passes , and i could not get over the records without an order from hence ; which records would have shewn that some of the witnesses were indicted and found guilty of high crimes , some were imprisoned for robberies , and some of the witnesses were infamous people , so i petitioned the eighth of this month , that i might have time but for twelve days more , but your lordship thought when the motion was made , that it was only to put off the trial , and now my witnesses are come to coventry yesterday morning , and they will be here in a few days , and so for want of time to defend my self in , i was exposed to my adversaries , who were some of my own clergy , whom for their debauched lives , i have corrected , as it is well known there . i will not deny my self , but that as long as there was any toleration and connivance , i did execute the function of a bishop , and that by the second of elizabeth is only a premunire , and no treason . so that , my lord , i was exposed defenceless to my enemies , whereas now my witnesses are come , that could make all appear . i did beg for twelve days time , whereby you might have seen as plain as the sun , what those witnesses are that began the story , and say these things against me . and , my lord , for those depositions of the seventy thousand men , and the monies that are collected of the clergy in ireland , they cannot be true , for they are a poor clergy that have no revenue nor land ; they live as the presbyterians do here , there is not a priest in all ireland , that hath certainly or uncertainly above threescore pounds a year , and that i should collect of them forty shillings a piece , for the raising of an army , or for the landing of the french at carlingford ; if it had been brought before a jury in ireland , it would have been thought a meer romance . if they had accused me of a proemunire for the exercise of my episcopal function , perhaps they had said something that might have been believed , but my lord , as i am a dying man , and hope for salvation by my lord and saviour , i am not guilty of one point of treason they have swore against me , no more than the child that was born . but yesterday . i have an attestation under my lord of essex's hand concerning my good behaviour in ireland , and not only from him , but from my lord berkley , who was also governour there , which the kings attorney saw ; but here i was brought , here i was tried , and having not time to bring my witnesses , i could not prove my innocency , as otherwise i might . so that , if there be any case in the world that deserves compassion , surely my case does ; and 't is such a rare case , as i believe you will not find two of them in print , that one arraigned in ireland , should be tried here afterwards for the same fact. my lord , if there be any thing in the world that deserves pity , this does , for i can say , as i hope for mercy , i was never guilty of any one point they have swore against me , and if my petition for time had been granted , i could have shewn how all was prepense malice against me , and have produced all circumstances that could make out the innocency of a person . but not having had time , and being tried , i am at your mercy . l. c. j. well , you have nothing further to say in bar of judgment , you have said all you can ? plunk . i have nothing further to say , but what i have said . then proclamation was made for silence , while judgement was passing upon the prisoner . l. c. j. look you , mr. plunket , you have been here indicted of a very great and hainous crime , the greatest and most hainous of all crimes , and that is , high treason ; and truly yours is a treason of the highest nature , 't is a treason in truth against god an your king , and the country where you lived . you have done as much as you could to dishonour god in this case ; for the bottom of your treason was , the seting up your false religion , than which , there is not any thing more displeasing to god , or more pernicious to mankind in the world : a religion that is ten times worse than all the heathenish superstitions , the most dishonourable and derogatory to god and his glory of all religions or pretended religions whatsoever ; for it undertakes to dispense with gods laws , and to pardon the breach of them . so that certainly a greater crime there cannot be committed against god , than for a man to endeavour the propagation of that religion ; but you , to effect this , have designed the death of your lawful prince and king. and then your design of blood in the kingdom where you lived , to set all together by the ears , to destroy poor innocent people , to prostitute their lives and liberties , and all that is dear to them to the tyranny of rome and france ; and that by introducing a french army . what greater evil can be designed by any man ? i mention these things , because they have all been fully proved against your , and that you may take notice , and repent of them , and make your peace with god , by a particular application for mercy for all these faults : for it seems to me , that against god , your prince , and fellow subjects , you have behaved your self very ill , designing very great evil to all these ; and now it hath pleased god to bring you to judgment . i must tell you , peradventure what you urge for your self might introduce pity , if it were to be believed , that is , that you are innocent , and had witnesses to prove it , but we cannot suppose any man innocent , that hath had a legal and a fair trial , and a trial with as much candor to you , as your case could bear , or as perhaps any man in such a case ever had . you had time upon your request to send for your witnesses , to help you in your defence , and to have proved your innocence , if you could have done it ; time long enough to your own content , you your self thought it so , at the time it was given . to give a prisoner under your circumstances five or six weeks time to send for witnesses , is not usual , we could have put you upon a present defence , and hurried you out of the world by a suddain trial , if we had had any design against you ; but we go on in a fair way , and with legal proceedings , and with as much respect to you , as in such a case could be used , for we gave you all the fair hearing and liberty that you desired to have . look you , as to what you urge , that your trial was in this kingdom , whereas your offence was in another , that is a thing that does not become you by any means to object ; for you have had a trial here by honest persons , and that according to the laws which obtain in this kingdom , and that too of ireland , which is by a statute not made on purpose to bring you into a snare , but an ancient statute , and not without presidents of its having been put in execution before your time . for your own country will afford you several presidents in this case , as o rurke , and several others that have been arraigned and condemned for treason done there . so that you have no reason to except against the legality of your trial. you say , now you have witnesses that could prove all this matter , why that lies in the mouth of any man that is condemned to say ; but pray consider with your self , what regard ought to be given to this . we cannot help it , if your witnesses don't come , you may remember they wanted not time nor opportunity to come over , but you told us they would not come unless they had a passport . plunket . my lord , they got a pass to come over afterwards , and so in eight days they came hither . lord chief justice . you might have provided your self , if they wanted such a thing . in the first place , no body is bound to give it them ; much less could you expect it for them without asking . plunkett . i could not get the copies of the records neither by any means , unless i had an order from the council , and they would not give that order , unless your lordship appointed it . l. c. j. we cannot tell that , you should have petitioned in time . plunkett . how could any one foresee , unless he was god almighty , that they would deny it , or that he could not get out a copy of a record , paying for it , without a petition . all the friends i had told me , upon motion there it might be had , but here i have it under the lieutenants and councils hands , that they would give no copy of records without order from hence , which before i could know it , it was impossible for me to have them ready against my trial. l. c. j. look you sir , i do speak this to you , to shew you that those objections , which you seem to make against your trial , have no weight at all , but in this case it is not the jury that are so material as the witnesses themselves . i appeal to all that heard your trial , if they could so much as doubt but that you were guilty of what you were charged with . for consider here were persons that were of your own religion , the most of them priests , i think almost all of them in orders . plunkett . there were two friars and a priest , whom i endeavoured to correct this seven years , and they were renegadoes from our religion , and declared apostates . l. c. j. look you sir , they gave an evidence very home to your matter ; you had liberty to examine them , and they gave you a rational accompt of any thing you ask'd . let me but put you in mind of one thing . you made exceptions to one's evidence , ( and indeed that was very much of your exception to all ) why he did not reveal this in all that time : truly he told you he was of your mind , till he went into france , and saw what a slavery and mischief you endeavoured to introduce upon his and your own countrymen , and this his spirit rose against , to see what a condition ireland was like to be brought into . and pray , did not he give you a full answer to that question ? plunkett . i had sufficient witnesses to prove he was an apostate , and was chastised by me , and therefore had prepensed malice against me . lord chief justice . therefore i have spoken this to the satisfaction , i hope , of your self , and all that hear it . i do now wish you to consider , you are near your end . it seems you have lived in a false religion hitherto ; it is not too late at any time to repent , i wish you may have the grace to do so ; in the mean time there is no room for us here , to grant you any kind of mercy , though , i 'le tell you , we are inclined to pity all malefactors : who ever have done evil , we are inclined to pity them , and wish heartily that they may repent , as we do , that you may of what you have done . but all we can do now , is , to say what the law says , and that is to pass judgment upon you . plunkett . may it please your lordship to give me leave to speak one word . if i were a man that had no care of my conscience in this matter , and did not think of god almighty , or conscience , or heaven , or hell , i might have saved my life ; for i was offered it by divers people here , so i would but confess my own guilt , and accuse others . but , my lord , i had rather die ten thousand deaths , than wrongfully accuse any body . and the time will come when your lordship will see what these witnesses are , that have come in against me . i do assure your lordship , if i were a man that had not good principles , i might easily have saved my own life ; but i had rather die ten thousand deaths , than wrongfully to take away one farthing of any mans goods , one day of his liberty , or one minute of his life . l. c. j. i am sorry to see you persist in the principles of that religion . plunket . they are those principles , that even god almighty cannot dispence withal . l. c. j. well , however the judgment which we give you , is that which the law says and speaks . and therefore you must go from hence , to the place from whence you came , that is to newgate , and from thence you shall be drawn through the city of london to tyburne ; there you shall be hanged by the neck , but cut down before you are dead , your bowels shall be taken out , and burnt before your face , your head shall be cut off , and your body be divided into four quarters , to be disposed of as his majesty pleases . and i pray god to have mercy upon your soul. plunket . my lord , i hope i may have this favour , of leave for a servant and some few friends that i have , to come at me . l c. j. i think you may have liberty for any servant to come to you , i know nothing to the contrary . plunket . and some friends that i have in town . l. c. j. but i would advise you to have some minister to come to you , some protestant minister . plunket . my lord , if you please , there are some in prison , that never were indicted , or accused of any crime , and they will do my business very well ; for they will do it according to the rites of our own church , which is the antient usage , they cannot do better , and i would not alter it now . l. c. j. mr. richardson , you may let his servant come to him , and any friend in your presence , to see there be no evil done , nor any contrivances that may hereafter have an influence upon affairs . mr. just . jones . be you present , or some body . plunket . my servant i hope may come , without his being present . l. c. j. yes , yes , his servant may be with him alone . well . sir , we wish better to you , than you do to your self . plunket . god almighty bless your lordship . and now , my lord , as i am a dead man to this world , and as i hope for mercy in the other world , i was never guilty of any of the treasons laid to my charge , as you will hear in time ; and my character you may receive from my lord chancellor of ireland , my lord berkley , my lord essex , and the duke of ormond . then the keeper took away his prisoner , and upon friday the first of july , he was executed according to the sentence . finis . advertisement . some passages of the life and death of john earl of rochester , who died the . of july , . by gilbert burnet , d. d. are to be sold by eliphal dobson bookseller on cork-hill , . a true and impartial relation of the informations against three witches, viz., temperance lloyd, mary trembles, and susanna edwards, who were indicted, arraigned and convicted at the assizes holden for the county of devon, at the castle of exon, aug. , with their several confessions, taken before thomas gist, mayor, and john davie, alderman, of biddiford, in the said county, where they were inhabitants : as also, their speeches, confessions and behaviour at the time and place of execution on the twenty fifth of the said month. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true and impartial relation of the informations against three witches, viz., temperance lloyd, mary trembles, and susanna edwards, who were indicted, arraigned and convicted at the assizes holden for the county of devon, at the castle of exon, aug. , with their several confessions, taken before thomas gist, mayor, and john davie, alderman, of biddiford, in the said county, where they were inhabitants : as also, their speeches, confessions and behaviour at the time and place of execution on the twenty fifth of the said month. lloyd, temperance, d. . trembles, mary, d. . edwards, susanna, d. . [ ], p. printed by freeman collins and are to be sold by t. benskin ... and c. yeo ..., london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng lloyd, temperance, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. trembles, mary, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. edwards, susanna, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (witchcraft) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - paul schaffner sampled and proofread - paul schaffner text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true and impartial relation of the informations against three witches , viz. temperance lloyd , mary trembles , and susanna edwards . who were indicted , arraigned , and convicted at the assizes holden for the county of devon at the castle of exon , aug. ▪ with their several confessions , taken before thomas gist mayor , and john davie alderman of biddiford in the said county , where they were inhabitants . as also their speeches , confessions , and behaviour , at the time and place of execution on the twenty fifth of the said month. london : printed by freeman collins , and are to be sold by t. benskin , in st. brides church-yard , and c. yeo bookseller in exon. . to the reader reader , this relation was written by a faithful ●●●able hand , employed in taking th●●●●minations and confessions of tem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lloyd , mary trembles , and susanna edwards , who were executed the th of august . when i have told you , that it is the onely t●●●● , authentick , and exact account ; and that if any others creep abroad , they are lame and imperfect ; i need no other argument to recommend it to thy perusal ; onely that it is the more remarkable , in regard we have had no conviction or execution of any witches for many years past . if thou dost not believe the being of witches , study the sacred writ ; consider that the w●●●●● of nations have provided laws against such persons : read those of king a alfred , and the canons editus sub b edgaro rege . and that it hath been the judgement of this kingdom , appears by an act of parliament which hath provided punishments proportionable to the quality of this offence . thou mayst at leisure consult the learned monarch king james , in his daemonologia , fol. . and the late tryal of witches before the honourable judicious great man , judge hales . see also dr. more 's learned discourse , intituled saducismus triumphatus , where the subject of witches and spirits is handled at large . a true and impartial relation of the confessions of three witches . the information of dorcas coleman , the wife of john coleman of biddiford aforesaid marriner , taken upon her oath before thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. the th day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford . ss . the said informant upon her oath saith , that about the end of the month of august , in the year of our lord god . she was taken in tormenting pains , by pricking in her arms , stomach , and heart , in such a manner , as she was never taken so before . upon which , she this informant did desire one thomas bremincom to repair unto doctor beare for some remedy for these pains . and very shortly afterwards the said doctor beare did repair unto this informant . and upon view of her body he did say , that it was past his skill to ease her of her said pains ; for he told her that she was bewitch'd . and further saith , that at the time of her tormenting pains , she this informant did see her the said susanna edwards in her chamber : and that she this informant would point with her finger at what place in the chamber the said susanna edwards would stand , and where she would go . and further saith , that she hath continued so ever since , more or less every week . and saith , that when the said susanna was apprehended concerning grace barnes of biddiford aforesaid , that this informant did go to see the said susanna . and that when the said susanna was in prison , she did confess unto this informant , that she had bewitched her , and done her some bodily harm by bewitching of her . and thereupon she fell down on her knees , and desired this informant to pray for her the said susanna edwards . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of thomas bremincom of biddiford in the county aforesaid gent. taken upon his oath before us , thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , & john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. the day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon his oath saith , that about two years ago , dorcas coleman the wife of john coleman of biddiford aforesaid marriner , was taken very sick , and in her sickness this informant did repair unto one doctor beare for some remedy for these pains . the said mr. beare being come unto her , and upon view of her body did say , that it was past his skill to ease her , by reason that she was bewitched . and further saith , that after that the said mr. beare had left her , he this informant did see one susanna edwards of biddiford aforesaid widow , to come into her chamber to visit her the said dorcas . this informant further saith , that assoon as the said dorcas did see the said susanna edwards , she did strive to fly in the face of the said susanna ; but was not able to get out of the chair wherein she sate . this informant , and john coleman the said dorcas's husband , did strive to help her out of the chair : upon which the said susanna edwards began to go backwards for to go out of the chamber . and further saith , that when the said susanna was almost gone out of the chamber , the said dorcas did slide out of the chair upon her back , and so strive to go after the said susanna . but this informant and her said husband seeing her in such a sad condition , did endeavour to take her up from the ground , but could not , until that the said susanna was gone down over the stairs . this informant further saith , that at the same time of her tormenting pains , and when she could neither see nor speak , by reason that her pains were so violent upon her , this informant hath seen her , the said dorcas , to point with her hand which way the said susanna edwards was gone . and further saith , that immediately after he hath gone out at the fore-door of the house where the said dorcas doth live , and hath seen the said susanna edwards to go the same way that the said dorcas did point with her hand . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of john coleman of biddiford in the county aforesaid marriner , taken upon his oath before thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. the th day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon his oath saith , that dorcas coleman his wife has been a long time sick in a very strange and unusual manner ; and he hath sought far and neer for remedy . and saith , that one doctor george beare being advised with concerning her sickness , in this deponents absence , ( whilst he was at sea ) the said mr. beare hath ( as this informant was told by his said wife , and his uncle thomas bremincom , at his return ) said , that it was past his skill to prescribe directions for her cure , because that the said dorcas was bewitcht . this informant further saith , that about three months now last past , his said wife was sitting in a chair , and being speechless , he this informant did see one susanna edwards of biddiford aforesaid widow , to come into the chamber under a pretence to visit her . whereupon this informants wife did strive to come at her the said susanna , but could not get out of the chair . upon which , this informant and the said thomas bremincom did endeavour to help her out of the chair ; and the said susanna did go towards the chamber-door . and further saith , that when the said susanna was come at the chamber-door , she the said dorcas ( remaining speechless as aforesaid ) did slide out of the chair upon her back , and so strove to come at her the said susanna ; but was not able to rise from the ground , until the said susanna was gone down the stairs . and further saith , that the said dorcas hath continued in such a strange and unusual manner of sickness ever since unto this day , with some intermissions . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . examined with the original whereof this is a true copy . john hill town-clerk . the information of grace thomas of biddiford in the county aforesaid spinster , taken upon her oath the d day of july , in the th year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. before us thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon her oath saith , that upon or about the d day of february , which was in the year of our lord . this informant was taken with great pains in her head and all her limbs , which pains continued on her till neer or upon the first day of august then following ; and then this informants pains began to abate , and this informant was able to walk abroad to take the air : but in the night-season she was in much pain , and not able to take her rest . this informant further saith , that upon or about the th day of september now last past , this informant was going up the high street of biddiford , where this informant met with temperance lloyd of biddiford aforesaid widow , and she the said temperance did then and there fall down on her knees to this informant , and wept , ( saying ) mrs. grace , i am glad to see you so strong again . upon which this informant said , why dost thou weep for me ? unto which the said temperance replied , i weep for joy to see you so well again , as the said temperance then pretended . this informant further saith , that in that very night she this informant was taken very ill with sticking and pricking pains , as though pins and awls had been thrust into her body , from the crown of her head to the soles of her feet ; and this informant lay as though it had been upon a rack . and saith , that these pricking pains have continued upon her body ever since ; and that her pains are much worse by night than by day . this informant further saith , that on thursday the first day of june last past in the night , she this informant was bound and seemingly chain'd up , with all her sticking pains gathered together in her belly ; so that on a sudden her belly was swoln as big as two bellies , which caused her to cry out , i shall die , i shall die ; and in this sad condition this informant lay as though she had been dead for a long space ( which those persons that were in the chamber with her this informant did compute to be about two hours ) . and this informant further saith , that on friday-night last , being the th day of june , this informant was again pinch'd and prick'd to the heart , with such cruel thrusting pains in her head , shoulders , arms , hands , thighs , and legs , as though the flesh would have been then immediately torn from the bones with a mans fingers and thumbs . and further saith , that she was even pluck'd out over her bed , and lay in this condition for the space of three hours ( as she was informed by some of the said persons then in this informants chamber ) . this informant further saith , that upon the first day of this instant july , assoon as the aforesaid temperance lloyd was apprehended and put in the prison of biddiford , she this informant immediately felt her pricking and sticking pains to cease and abate . and saith , that she hath continued so ever since unto this time ; but is still in great weakness of body . and further saith , that she believeth that the said temperance lloyd hath been an instrument of doing much hurt and harm unto her body , by pricking and tormenting of her in manner as before in this her information she hath set forth . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of elizabeth eastchurch , the wife of thomas eastchurch of biddiford in the county aforesaid gent. taken upon her oath before us thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. the d of july , in the th year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second , &c. anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon her oath saith ▪ that upon the d day of this instant july , the said grace thomas , then lodging in this informants said husbands house , and hearing of her to complain of great pricking pains in one of her knees , she this informant did see her said knee , and observed that she had nine places in her knee which had been prickt ; and that every of the said pricks were as though it had been the prick of a thorn. whereupon this informant afterwards , upon the same d day of july , did demand of the said temperance lloyd whether she had any wax or clay in the form of a picture whereby she had pricked and tormented the said grace thomas ? unto which the said temperance made answer , that she had no wax nor clay , but confessed that she had only a piece of leather which she had pricked nine times . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of anne wakely , the wife of william wakely of biddiford in the county aforesaid husbandman , taken the d day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon her oath saith , that upon the second day of july instant , she this deponent , by order of the said mr. mayor , did search the body of the said temperance lloyd , in the presence of honor hooper , and several other women . and upon search of her said body , she this informant did find in her secret parts two teats hanging nigh together like unto a piece of flesh that a child had suckt . and that each of the said teats was about an inch in length . upon which this informant did demand of her the said temperance whether she had been suckt at that place by the black man ? ( meaning the devil ) . whereunto the said temperance did acknowledge , that she had been suck'd there often times by the black man ; and the last time that she was suck'd by the said black man was the fridy before she was search'd , ( which was the th day of june last past ) . and this informant further saith , that she hath been an attendant of the said grace thomas about six weeks now last past : and that on thursday now last past ( which was the th of june last past ) in the morning , she this informant did see something in the shape of a magpie to come at the chamber-window where the said grace thomas did lodge . upon which this informant did demand of the said temperance lloyd whether she did know of any bird to come and flutter at the said window . unto which question the said temperance did then say , that it was the black man in the shape of the bird ; and that she the said temperance was at that time down by the said thomas eastchurch's door of the house where the said grace thomas did lodge . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the like is deposed by honor hooper , servant unto the said thomas eastchurch , as appears by her information , taken upon her oath the day and year abovesaid , before the said thomas gist mayor , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman temperance lloyd her examination , taken the d day of july , in the th year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. before us thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddisord aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant being brought before us by some constables of the said burrough , upon the complaint of thomas eastchurch of biddiford aforesaid gent. and charged upon suspition of having used some magical art , sorcery , or witchcraft upon the body of grace thomas of biddiford aforesaid spinster ; and to have had discourse or familiarity with the devil in the shape of a black man : and being demanded how long since she had discourse or familiarity with the devil in the likeness or shape of a black man , saith , that about the th day of september last past she met with the devil in the shape or likeness of a black man , about the middle of the afternoon of that day , in a certain street or lane in the town of biddiford aforesaid , called higher gunstone lane : and then and there he did tempt and sollicite her to go with him to the house of the said thomas eastchurch to torment the body of the said grace thomas ; which this examinant at first did refuse to do : but afterwards , by the temptation and perswasion of the devil in the likeness of a black man as aforesaid , she did go to the house of the said thomas eastchurch , and that she went up the stairs after the said black man ; and confesseth , that both of them went up into the chamber where she the said grace thomas was , and that there they found one anne wakely the wife of william wakely of biddiford , rubbing and stroaking one of the arms of the said grace thomas . and the said examinant doth further confess , that she did then and there pinch with the nails of her fingers the said grace thomas in her shoulders , arms , thighs and legs ; and that afterwards they came down from the said grace thomas her chamber into the street together ; and that there this examinant did see something in the form or shape of a grey or braget cat ; and saith that the said cat went into the said thomas eastchurch's shop . the said examinant , being further demanded whether she went any more unto the said thomas eastchurch's house , saith and confesseth , that the day following she came again to the said thomas eastchurch's house invisible , and was not seen by any person ; but there this examinant did meet with the braget cat as aforesaid ; and the said cat did retire and leap back into the said thomas eastchurch's shop . the said examinant , being further demanded when she was at the said thonas eastchurch's house the last time , saith , that she was at the said mr. eastchurch's house upon friday the th day of june last past ; and that the devil in the shape of the said black man was there with her : and that they went up again into the said chamber , where she found the said grace thomas lying in her bed in a very sad condition . notwithstanding which , she this examinant and the said black man did torment her again : and saith and confesseth , that she this examinant had almost drawn her out of her bed , and that on purpose to put her the said grace out of her life . and further saith , that the black man ( or rather the devil ) did promise this examinant that no one should discover her . and further confesseth , that the said black man ( or rather the devil , as aforesaid ) did suck her teats which she now hath in her secret parts : and that she did kneel down to him in the street , as she was returning to her own house , and after that they had tormented the said grace thomas ▪ in manner as last above mentioned . being demanded of what stature the said black man was , saith , that he was about the length of her arm : and that his eyes were very big ; and that he hopt or leapt in the way before her , and afterwards did suck her again as she was lying down ; and that his sucking was with a great pain unto her , and afterwards vanish'd clear away out of her sight . this examinant doth further confess , that upon the first day of june last past , whilst the said mr. eastchurch and his wife were absent , that the said examinant did pinch and prick the said grace thomas ( with the aid and help of the blackman , or rather the devil ) in her belly , stomach , and breast ; and that they continued so tormenting of her about the space of two or three hours , with an intent to have killed her . and further saith , that at the same time she did see the said anne wakely rubbing and chasing of several parts of the said grace thomas her body : although the said anne wakely , being present at taking of this examination , doth affirm that she did not see the said examinant . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . devon. ss . biddiford ss . whereas the said temperance lloyd hath made such an ample confession and declaration concerning the said grace thomas , we the said mayor and justices were induced to demand of her some other questions concerning other witcheries which she had practised upon the bodies of several other persons within this town , viz. she the said examinant did confess , that about the day of march , which was in the year of our lord . she was accused , indicted , and arraigned , for practising of witchcraft upon the body of one william herbert , late of biddiford aforesaid , husbandman : and that although at the trial of her life at the castle of exeter , she was there acquitted by the judge and jury then ; yet this examinant doth now confess , that she is guilty thereof , by the perswasion of the black man ; and that she did prick the said william herbert unto death . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . devon. ss . biddiford ss . and whereas upon or about the th of may , which was in the year of our lord . she was accused before the then mayor and justices of the town of biddiford aforesaid , for practising witchcraft upon the body of one anne fellow the daughter of edward fellow of biddiford gent. and although her body was then searched by four women of the town of biddiford aforesaid , and the proofs then against her not so clear and conspicuous , the said mr. fellow did not further prosecute against her ; yet this examinant doth now confess that the said black man or devil , ( or some other black man or devil ) with her this said examinant ▪ did do some bodily hurt to the said anne fellow , and that thereupon the said anne fellow did shortly die and depart this life . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . devon. ss . biddiford ss . whereas we , thomas eastchurch and elizabeth eastchurch his wife , honor hooper , and anne wakely , upon yesterday , which was the d of july , . did give in and deliver our several informations upon our oaths , before thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. of biddiford , against temperance lloyd of biddiford aforesaid widow , for using and practising of witchcraft upon the body of grace thomas of the same town spinster , as by our several examinations it doth and may appear . but because we were dissatisfied in some particulars concerning a piece of leather which the said temperance had confessed of unto the said elizabeth eastchurch , in such manner as is mentioned in the said elizabeth eastchurch's examination , and we conceiving that there might be some inchantment used in or about the said leather : therefore upon this present th day of july , we , with the leave and approbation of the said mr. gist the mayor , did bring the said temperance into the parish-church of biddiford aforesaid , in the presence of mr. michael ogilby rector of the same parish-church , and divers other persons , where the said temperance was demanded by the said mr. ogilby how long since the devil did tempt her to do evil . whereupon she the said temperance did say and confess , that about twelve years ago she was tempted by the devil to be instrumental to the death of william herbert named in her said examination . and that the devil did promise her that she should live well and do well . and she did then also confess that she was thereupon an instrument of the death of the said william herbert . and as to the said grace thomas , she further said and confessed , that on friday was sevennight , ( which was the th day of june last past ) she the said temperance came into the said thomas eastchurch's shop in the form and shape of a cat ; and fetcht out of the same shop a puppit or picture , ( commonly called a childs baby ) and that she carried the same up into the chamber where the said grace thomas did lodge , and left it about the bed whereon the said grace thomas did lie ; but would not confess that she had prickt any pins in the said puppit or baby-picture , although she were demanded particularly that question by the said mr. ogilby . also the said temperance did then and there confess , that she was the cause of the death of anne fellow , the daughter of edward fellow named in her said examination . also she did then and there confess , that she was the cause of the death of one jane dallyn the late wife of symon dallyn of biddiford marriner , by pricking of her in one of her eyes , which she did so secretly perform , that she was never discovered or punished for the same . also the said temperance lloyd did confess and declare , that she did bewitch unto death one lydia burman of biddiford aforesaid spinster , because she had been a witness against her the said temperance at the trial for her life and death at the assizes when she was arraigned for the death of the said william herbert , and had deposed that the said temperance had appeared unto her in the shape of a red pig at such time as the said lydia was brewing in the house of one humphry ackland of biddiford aforesaid . being further demanded again in what part of the house of the said mr. eastchurch , or in what part of the bed whereon the said grace thomas lay , she left the puppit or baby-picture above-mentioned , saith , that she would not nor must not discover ; for if she did discover the same , that the devil would tear her in pieces . and afterwards the said mr. ogilby desired the said temperance to say the lords prayer and her creed ; which she imperfectly performing , the said mr. ogilby did give her many good exhortations , and so departed from her . in witness whereof , we have hereunto set our hands this th day of july , in the four and thirtieth year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , annoqque dom. . july . . sworn before us thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of thomas eastchurch of biddiford in the county aforesaid gent. taken upon his oath before us , thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , & john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. the d day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon his oath saith , that upon yesterday , which was the second day of july , he did hear the said temperance lloyd to say and confess , that about the th day of september last past , as she was returning from the bakehouse with a loaf of bread under her arm , towards her own house , she the said temperance lloyd did meet with something in the likeness of a black man , in a street called higher gunstonelane within this town , and then and there the said black man did tempt and perswade her to go to this informant's house to torment one grace thomas , who is this informant's sister-in law . that the said temperance did first refuse the temptation , saying that the said grace thomas had done her no harm . but afterwards , by the further perswasion and temptation of the said black man , she did go to this informant's house ; and that she went up the stairs after the black man : and confessed that both of them went into the chamber where this informant's said sister-in-law was , and that there they found one anne wakely , the wife of william wakely of biddiford , rubbing of one of the arms and one of the legs of the said grace thomas . and this informant further saith , that the said temperance did also confess , that the black man did perswade the said temperance to pinch the said grace thomas in the knees , arms , and shoulders ; intimating with her fingers how she did it . and that when she came down the stairs again into the street , she saw a braget cat go into this informant's shop ; and that she believed it to be the devil . and this informant did hear the said temperance to say and confess , that on friday-night last ( which was the th day of june ) the black man did meet with her neer her own door , about ten of the clock of that same night , and there did again tempt her to go to this informant's house , and to make an end of the said grace thomas . whereupon the said temperance did go to this informant's house with the said black man , and that she went into the chamber where the said grace thomas lay . and further did confess , that she did pinch and prick the said grace thomas again in several parts of her body , ( declaring with both of her hands dow she did do it ) . and that thereupon the said grace thomas did cry out terribly . and confessed that the said black man told her that she should make an end of her the said grace thomas . and further she the said temperance did say and confess , that the said black man did promise her the said temperance that no one should discover her or see her . and she also confessed , that about twelve of the clock of that same night the black man did suck her in the street in her secret parts , she kneeling down to him . that he had blackish clothes , and was about the length of her arm. that he had broad eyes , and a mouth like a toad , and afterwards vanisht clear away out of her sight . this informant further saith , that he heard the said temperance to confess , that about the first day of june last past the said black man was with her again , and told her , that on that night she the said temperance should make an end of the said grace thomas ; and confessed that she the said temperance had that night griped the said grace thomas in her belly , stomach , and breast , and clipt her to the heart . and that the said grace thomas did cry out pitifully . and that the said temperance was about the space of two hours tormenting of her . and that one anne wakely ( with several other women ) were then present in the chamber , but could not see her the said temperance ; and that the black man stood by her in the same room also . this informant further saith , that he supposed that the said grace thomas in her sickness had been afflicted thorough a distemper arising from a natural cause , did repair unto several physicians , but that she the said grace could never receive any benefit prescribed by them . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of william herbert of biddiford in the county aforesad black-smith , taken upon his oath the th day of august , in the th year of the reign of our soveraign lord charles the second , by the grace of god , of england , scotland , france and ireland king , defender of the faith , &c. before thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. devon. ss . biddiford ss . this informant upon his oath saith , that neer or upon the d day of february , which was in the year of our lord god . he did hear his father william herbert to declare on his death-bed , that temperance lloyd of biddiford aforesaid widow had bewitched his said father unto death . this informant's father further declaring unto this informant , that he , with the rest of his relations , should view his father's body after his decease ; and that by his body they should see what prints and marks the aforesaid temperance lloyd had made upon his body . and further saith , that his said father did lay his bloud to the charge of the said temperance lloyd , and desired this informant to see her aprehended for the same ; which was accordingly done : and saith , that she was accused for the same , but that she was then acquitted at the assizes . this informant further saith , that upon the fourth day of july now last past , he went to the prison of biddiford , where the said temperance was , ( she being then in the said prison concerning mrs. grace thomas ) and demanded of her whether she had done any bodily harm or hurt unto the said william herbert deceased , this informant's late father ; unto which she answered and said , surely william i did kill thy father . this informant did demand of her further , whether she had done any hurt or harm to one lydia burman late of biddiford spinster . unto which the said temperance lloyd answered and said , that she was the cause of her death . this informant demanded of her the said temperance , why she had not confessed so much when she was in prison last time ? she answered , that her time was not expired ; for the devil had given her greater power , and a longer time . and this informant did hear the said temperance lloyd to confess , that she was the cause of the death of anne fellow the daughter of edward fellow of biddiford gent. and also that she the said temperance was the cause of the bewitching out of one of the eyes of jane the wife of one simon dallyn of biddiford aforesaid marriner . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . examined with the original whereof this is a true copy . john hill town-clerk . the information of john barnes of biddiford in the county aforesaid yeoman , taken upon his oath before us thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. the th day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon his oath saith , that upon easter-tuesday , ( which was the th day of may last past ) this informant's wife was taken with very great pains of sticking and pricking in her arms , stomach , and breast , as though she had been stabbed with awls , being so described unto him by the said grace , in such manner , as this informant thought that she would have died immediately ; and in such sad condition she the said grace hath continued unto this present day , in tormenting and grievous pains . and further saith , that upon sunday last , which was the th day of july instant , about ten of the clock in forenoon , this informant's said wife was again taken worse than before , insomuch as four men and women could hardly hold her . and at that same time , one agnes whitefield , the wife of john whitefield of biddiford aforesaid cordwainer , being in this informant's house , and hearing somebody out at the door , she did open the door , where she found one mary trembles of biddiford aforesaid single woman , standing with a white pot in her hands , as though she had been going to the common bakehouse . and thereupon this informant's wife did ask of the said agnes whitefield who it was that was at the door ? unto which the said agnes whitefield answered and said , that it was mary trembles . then this informant's wife did reply and said , that she the said mary trembles was one of them that did torment her , and that she was come now to put her the said grace out of her life . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of grace barnes , the wife of john barnes of biddiford in the county aforesaid yeoman , taken upon her oath before thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. the d day of august , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford . ss . the said informant upon her oath saith , that she hath been very much pain'd and tormented in her body these many years last past , insomuch that she hath sought out for remedy far and neer , and never had any suspition that she had had any magical art or witchcraft used upon her body , until it was about a year and a half ago , that she was informed by some physicians that it was so . and further saith , that thereupon she this informant had some suspition of one susanna edwards of biddiford aforesaid widow , because that she the said susanna would oftentimes repair unto this informants husband's house upon frivolous or no occasions at all . and further saith , that about the middle of the month of may last past , she was taken with very great pains of sticking and pricking in her arms , breast , and heart , as though divers awls had been pricked or stuck into her body , and was in great tormenting pain for many days and nights together , with a very little intermission . and saith , that upon sunday the th day of july last , she was taken in a very grievous and tormenting manner ; at which instant of time one agnes whitefield , the wife of john whitefield of biddiford , was in this informants husband's house , who opening the door , and looking out , found one mary trembles of biddiford single woman , standing before the door . and thereupon this informant did ask of the said agnes whitefield who it was that stood at the door ; who answered , that it was the said mary trembles . upon which this informant was fully assured , that the said mary trembles , together with the said susanna edwards , were the very persons that had tormented her , by using some magical art or witchcraft upon her said body as aforesaid . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of william edwards of biddiford in the county aforesaid black-smith , taken upon his oath before us thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c the th day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon his oath saith , that upon the th day of july instant this informant did hear susanna edwards to confess , that the devil had carnal knowledge of her body ; and that he had suckt her in her breast and in her secret parts . and further saith , that he did hear her the said susanna to say , that she and one mary trembles of biddiford aforesaid single woman , did appear hand in hand invisible in john barnes's house of biddiford aforesaid , where grace the wife of the said john barnes did lie in a very sad condition . and further saith , that he did then also hear the said susanna to say , that she and the said mary trembles were at that time come to make an end of her the said grace barnes . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of joane jones , the wife of anthony jones of biddiford in the county aforesaid husbandman , taken upon her oath before us thomas gist mayor , and john davie alderman , the th day of july anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon her oath saith , that upon the th day of july instant , she this informant being present with susanna edwards of biddiford aforesaid widow , there came in to see the said susanna one john dunning of great torrington , which said john dunning this informant did hear him to demand of the said susanna edwards how and by what means she became a witch . unto which question the said susanna did answer , that she did never confess afore now , but now she would . and further saith , that she did hear the said susanna edwards to confess unto the said john dunning , that she was on a time out gathering of wood , at which time the said susanna edwards did see a gentleman to draw nigh unto her ; whereupon she was in good hopes to have a piece of mony of him . this informant further saith , that the said john dunning did demand of her the said susanna , where she did meet with the said gentleman ; she the said susanna did answer , that it was in parsonage close . and further saith , that after the said john dunning was gone , this informant did hear the said susanna edwards to confess , that on sunday the th of july instant , she with mary trembles , and by the help of the devil , did prick and torment grace the wife of john barnes of biddiford aforesaid . and this informant further saith , that she did hear the said susanna edwards and mary trembles to say and confess , that they did this present day , being the th of july instant , torment and prick her the said grace barnes again . and further saith , that she did hear the said mary trembles to say unto the said susanna edwards ; o thou rogue , i will now confess all : for 't is thou that hast made me to be a witch , and thou art one thy self , and my conscience must swear it . unto which the said susanna replied unto the said mary trembles , i did not think that thou wouldest have been such a rogue to discover it . and further saith , that the said susanna edwards did say and confess , that the devil did oftentimes carry about her spirit . and further saith , that she did hear the said susanna to say and further confess , that she did prick and torment one dorcas coleman the wife of john coleman of biddiford aforesaid marriner . and further saith , that she did hear the said susanna edwards to confess , that she was suckt in her breast several times by the devil in the shape of a boy lying by her in her bed ; and that it was very cold unto her . and further saith , that after she was suckt by him , the said boy or devil had the carnal knowledge of her body four several times . and this informant further saith , that her husband anthony jones , observing her the said susanna to gripe and twinkle her hands upon her own body , said unto her , thou devil , thou art now tormenting some person or other . whereupon the said susanna was displeased with him , and said , well enough , i will sit thee : and at that present time the said grace barnes was in great pain with prickings and stabbings unto her heart , as she did afterwards affirm . this informant further saith , that one of the constables and her said husband , with some others , were sent by mr. mayor to bring the said grace barnes unto the town-hall of biddiford aforesaid ; which they did accordingly do : and immediately , assoon as he with others had led and with much ado brought the said grace barnes into the town-hall , she the said susanna edwards turned about and looked upon her said husband , and forthwith this informants said husband was taken in a very said condition as he was leading and supporting the said grace barnes up the stairs of the said town-hall before the mayor and justices ; insomuch that he cried out , wife , i am now bewitched by this devil , meaning susanna edwards ; and forthwith leapt and capered like a madman , and fell a shaking , quivering , and foaming , and lay for the space of half an hour like a dying or dead man. and at length , coming to his senses again ▪ her said husband did declare unto this informant , that the said susanna edwards had bewitched him . and this informant further saith , that she did never know her said husband anthony jones to be taken in any fits or convulsions , but a person of a sound and healthy body ever since he had been this informants husband . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the information of anthony jones of biddiford in the county aforesaid husbandman , taken upon his oath before us thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. the th day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said informant upon his oath saith , that yesterday whilst the said susanna edwards was in the town hall of biddiford concerning the said grace barnes , he did observe the said susanna to gripe and twinkle her hands upon her own body , in an unusual manner : whereupon this informant did say unto her , thou devil , thou art now tormenting some person or other . whereupon the said susanna was displeased with this informant , and said , well enough , i will fit thee . and at that present time the said grace barnes was in great pains with prickings and stabbings unto her heart , as the said grace did afterwards affirm . this informant further saith , that one of the constables & he , with some others , being sent by the order of mr. mayor to bring the said grace unto the town-hall of biddiford aforesaid ; immediately , assoon as they had brought the said grace unto the town-hall , she the said susanna turned about and looked upon this informant , and forthwith with this informant was taken in a very said condition as he was coming up the stairs of the said town-hall before the mayor and justices ; insomuch that he cried out , wife , i am now bewitched by this devil susanna edwards . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the examination of mary trembles of biddiford in the county aforesaid single woman , taken before thomas gist mayor of the burrough , town , and mannor of biddiford aforesaid , and john davie alderman , two of his majesties justices of the peace within the same burrough , &c. the day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford ss . the said examinant being brought before us , and accused for practising of witchcraft upon the body of grace barnes the wife of john barnes of biddiford aforesaid yeoman , was demanded by us how long she had practised witchcraft , said and confessed , that about three years last past , one susanna edwards of biddiford aforesaid widow , did inform her , that if she would do as she the said susanna did , that this examinant should do very well . whereupon this examinant did yield unto the said susanna edwards , and said that she would do as the said susanna did . and this examinant further confesseth , that the said susanna edwards did promise that she this examinant should neither want for money , meat , drink , nor clothes . and further confesseth , that after that she had made this bargain with the said susanna edwards , that the devil in the shape of a lyon ( as she conceived ) did come to this examinant , and lay with her , and had carnal knowledge of her body . and that after the devil had had knowledge of her body , that he did suck her in her secret parts , and that his sucking was so hard , which caused her to cry out for the pain thereof . and further confesseth , that on tuesday in easter-week , which was the th day of may last past , she this examinant did go about the town of biddiford to beg some bread , and in her walk she did meet with the said susanna edwards , who asked of this examinant where she had been . unto whom this examinant answered , that she had been about the town , and had begged some meat , but could get none . whereupon this examinant , together with the said susanna edwards , did go to the said john barnes's house , in hope that there they should have some meat . but the said john barnes not being within his house , they could get no meat or bread , being denied by the said grace barnes and her servant , who would not give them any meat . whereupon the said susanna edwards and this informant went away from the said john barnes his house . and afterwards on the same day the said susanna edwards did bid this examinant to go to the said john barnes his house again for a farthings worth of tobacco . whereupon this said examinant did go , but could not have any ; whereof this examinant did acquaint the said susanna edwards , who then said that it should be better for her the said grace if that she had let this said examinant to have had some tobacco . and further confesseth , that on the day of this instant month of july , she this examinant , with the said susanna , did go to the said john barnes his house in biddiford aforesaid , and went at the fore-door invisibly into the room , where they did pinch and prick the said grace barnes almost unto death ; and that she saw the said john barnes in bed with his wife on the inner-side of the bed. the said examinant being further demanded how many times the devil had had the carnal knowledge of her body besides the time above-mentioned ; she saith and confesseth , that the devil hath had the carnal knowledge of her body three other times ; and that the last of the said three times , was upon the said th day of july as she was going towards the common bakehouse . and that at that time she , with the help of the devil , would have killed the said grace barnes , if that she the said examinant had not spilt some of the meat she was then carrying unto the said bakehouse . thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . the examination of susanna edwards of biddiford aforesaid , in the county aforesaid widow , taken the th day of july , anno dom. . devon. ss . biddiford . ss . the said examinant being brought before us , and accused for practising of witchcraft upon the body of grace barnes , the wife of john barnes of biddiford aforesaid yeoman , was demanded by us how long since she had discourse or familiarity with the devil ; saith , that about two years ago she did meet with a gentleman in a field called the parsonage close in the town of biddiford . and saith that his apparel was all of black . upon which she did hope to have a pice of money of him . whereupon the gentleman drawing near unto this examinant , she did make a curchy or courtesie unto him , as she did use so to do to gentlemen . being demanded what and who the gentleman she spake of was , the said examinant answered and said , that it was the devil . and confessed , that the devil did ask of her whether she was a poor woman ? unto whom she answered , that she was a poor woman ; and that thereupon the devil in the shape of the gentleman did say unto her , that if this examinant would grant him one request , that she should neither want for meat , drink , nor clothes : whereupon this examinant did say unto the said gentleman , ( or rather the devil ) in the name of god , what is it that i shall have ? upon which the said gentleman vanished clear away from her . and further confesseth , that afterwards there was something in the shape of a little boy , which she thinks to be the devil , came into her house and did lie with her , and that he did suck her at her breast . and confesseth , that she did afterwards meet him in a place call'd stambridge-lane in this parish of biddiford , leading towards abbottisham ( which is the next parish on the west of biddiford aforesaid ) where he did suck bloud out of her breast . and further confesseth , that on sunday , which was the th day of july instant , she this examinant , together with mary trembles of biddiford aforesaid , single woman , did go unto the house of john barnes of biddiford aforesaid , yeoman , and that no body did see them ; and that they were in the same room where grace the wife of the said john barnes was , and that there they did prick and pinch the said grace barnes with their fingers , & put her to great pain and torment , insomuch that the said grace barnes was almost dead . and confesseth , that this present day she this examinant did prick and torment the said grace barnes again , ( intimating with her fingers how she did it ) . and also confesseth , that the devil did intice her to make an end of her the said grace barnes ; and that he told her that he would come again to her once more before she should go out of town . and confesseth , that she can go unto any place invisible , and yet her body shall be lying in her bed. and further confesseth , that the devil hath appeared unto her in the shape of a lyon , as she supposed . being demanded whether she had done any bodily hurt unto any other person besides the said grace barnes , saith and confesseth , that she did prick and torment one dorcas coleman , the wife of john coleman of biddiford aforesaid marriner . and saith , that she gave her self to the devil when she did meet with him in stambridge-lane , as aforesaid . and saith , that the said mary trembles was a servant unto her this examinant , in like manner as she this examinant was a servant unto the devil ( whom she called by the appellation of a gentleman as aforesaid . ) thomas gist mayor . john davie alderman . examined with the original , whereof this is a true copy . john hill town-clerk . the substance of the last words and confessions of susanna edwards , temperance lloyd , and mary trembles , at the time and place of their execution ; as fully as could be taken in a case liable to so much noise and confusion , as is usual on such occasions . mr. h. mary trembles , what have you to say as to the crime you are now to die for ? mary . i have spoke as much as i can speak already , and can speak no more . h. in what shape did the devil come to you ? mary . the devil came to me once , i think , like a lyon. h. did he offer any violence to you ? mary . no , not at all , but did frighten me , and did nothing to me . and i cried to god , and asked what he would have , and he vanished . h. did he give thee any gift , or didst thou make him any promise ? mary . no. h. had he any of thy bloud ? mary . no. h. did he come to make use of thy body in a carnal manner ? mary . never in my life . h. have you a teat in your privy-parts ? mary . none . the grand inquest said it was sworn to them . h. mary trembles , was not the devil there with susan when i was once in the prison with you , and under her coats ? the other told me that he was there , but is now fled ; and that the devil was in the way when i was going to taunton with my son who is a minister . thou speakest now as a dying woman , and as the psalmist says , i will confess my iniquities and acknowledge all my sin . we find that mary magdalen had seven devils , and she came to christ and obtained mercy : and if thou break thy league with the devil , and make a covenant with god , thou mayst also obtain mercy . if thou hast any thing to speak , speak thy mind . mary . i have spoke the very truth , and can speak no more : mr. h. i would desire they may come by me , and confess as i have done . h. temperance lloyd , have you made any contract with the devil ? temp. no. h. did he ever take any of thy bloud ? temp. no. h. how did he appear to thee first , or where in the street ? in what shape ? temp. in a woful shape . h. had he ever any carnal knowledge of thee ? temp. no , never . h. what did he do when he came to thee ? temp. he caused me to go and do harm . h. and did you go ? temp. i did hurt a woman sore against my conscience : he carried me up to her door , which was open : the womans name was mrs. grace thomas . h. what caused you to do her harm ? what malice had you against her ? did she do you any harm ? temp. no , she never did me any harm : but the devil beat me about the head grievously because i would not kill her : but i did bruise her after this fashion laying her two hands to her sides . h. did you bruise her till the bloud came out of her mouth and nose ? temp. no. h. how many did you destroy and hurt ? temp. none but she . h. did you know any marriners that you or your associates destroyed by overturning of ships and boats ? temp. no ; i never hurt any ship , bark , or boat in my life . h. was it you or susan that did bewitch the children ? temp. i sold apples , and the child took an apple from me , and the mother took the apple from the child ; for the which i was very angry : but the child died of the small pox. h. do you know one mr. lutteril about these parts , or any of your confederates ? did you or them bewitch his child ? temp. no. h. temperance , how did you come in to hurt mrs. grace thomas ? did you pass through the key-hole of the door , or was the door open ? temp. the devil did lead me up stairs , and the door was open : and this is all the hurt i did . h. how do you know it was the devil ? temp. i knew it by his eyes ? h. had you no discourse or treaty with him ? temp. no ; he said i should go along with him to destroy a woman , and i told him i would not : he said he would make me ; and then the devil beat me about the head. h. why had you not called upon god ? temp. he would not let me do it . h. you say you never hurted ships nor boats ; did you never ride over an arm of the sea on a cow ? temp. no , no , master , 't was she , meaning susan . when temperance said 't was susan , she said she lied , and that she was the cause of her bringing to die : for she said when she was first brought to goal , if that she was hanged , she would have me hanged too ; she reported i should ride on a cow before her , which i never did . h. susan , did you see the shape of a bullock ? at the first time of your examination you said it was like a short black man , about the length of you arm. sus. he was black , sir. h. susan , had you any knowledge of the bewitching of mr. lutteril's child , or did you know a place called tranton burroughs ? sus. no. h. are you willing to have any prayers ? then mr. h. prayed , whose prayer we could not take ; and they sung part of the psalm , at the desire of susanna edwards : as she mounted the ladder , she said , the lord jesus speed me ; though my sins be as red as scarlet , the lord jesus can make them as white as snow : the lord help my soul. then was executed . mary trembles said , lord jesus receive my soul ; lord jesus speed me ; and then was also executed . temperance lloyd said , jesus christ speed me well : lord forgive all my sins ; lord jesus christ be merciful to my poor soul. mr. sheriff . you are lookt on as the woman that has debaucht the other two : did you ever lie with devils ? temp. no. sh. did not you know of their coming to goal ? temp. no. sh. have you any thing to say to satisfie the world ? temp. i forgive them , as i desire the lord jesus christ will forgive me . the greatest thing i did was to mrs. grace thomas ; and i desire i may be sensible of it , and that the lord jesus christ may forgive me . the devil met me in the street , and bid me kill her ; and because i would not , he beat me about the head and back . mr. sh. in what shape or colour was he ? temp. in black , like a bullock . sh. how do you know you did it ? how went you in , through the key-hole , or the door ? temp. at the door . sh. had you no discourse with the devil ? temp. never but this day six weeks . sh. you were charged about years since , and did you never see the devil but this time ? temp. yes , once before : i was going for brooms , and he came to me and said , this poor woman has a great burthen ; and would help ease me of my burthen : and i said , the lord had enabled me to carry it so far , and i hope i shall be able to carry it further . sh. did the devil never promise you any thing ? temp. no , never . sh. then you have served a very bad master , who gave you nothing . well ; consider you are just departing this world : do you believe there is a god ? temp. yes . sh. do you believe in jesus christ ? temp. yes ; and i pray jesus christ to pardon all my sins . and so was executed . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a -e a . . b . . the case and trial of capt. robert norwood, now prisoner in new-gate, truely and impartially stated, and published for satisfaction of my allied friends, and very many others desirous thereof. together with some observations upon the law and its professors, very worthy a most serious consideration. both which, (with a brief answer, by way of postscript, to a secret calumny charged upon me) are here presented to the view and judgement of the whole nation: which, if duly considered, with the shrot [sic] discourse annexed, will clearly discover where england's death and life lies. norwood, robert, captain. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing n a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing n a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : , : ) the case and trial of capt. robert norwood, now prisoner in new-gate, truely and impartially stated, and published for satisfaction of my allied friends, and very many others desirous thereof. together with some observations upon the law and its professors, very worthy a most serious consideration. both which, (with a brief answer, by way of postscript, to a secret calumny charged upon me) are here presented to the view and judgement of the whole nation: which, if duly considered, with the shrot [sic] discourse annexed, will clearly discover where england's death and life lies. norwood, robert, captain. p. s.n., [london : ] signed at end: robert norwood. caption title. imprint from wing. item at : identified as wing c ; number cancelled in wing ( nd ed.). reproductions of the originals in the harvard university library and the henry e. huntington library and art gallery. eng trials (heresy) -- england -- early works to . a r (wing n a). civilwar no the case and trial of capt. robert norwood, now prisoner in new-gate, truely and impartially stated, and published for satisfaction of my al norwood, robert, captain b the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - taryn hakala sampled and proofread - taryn hakala text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the case and trial of capt. robert norwood , now prisoner in new-gate , truely and impartially stated , and published for satisfaction of my allied friends , and very many others desirous thereof . together with some observations upon the law and its professors , very worthy a most serious consideration . both which , ( with a brief answer , by way of postscript , to a secret calumny charged upon me ) are here presented to the view and judgement of the whole nation : which , if duly considered , with the shrot discourse annexed , will clearly discover where england's death and life lies . in march last , some gentlemen with whom i had formerly held society , coming to my house to speak with me , did declare that they heard or understood of some erroneous opinions which i should hold , and speak forth to the people ; at which they seemed to be offended . whereupon , i told them i was not ashamed , but should be ready to give an account , not onely of my faith , but of my life and conversation also , in westminster-hall , or at pauls cross , to themselvs , or any other gentlemen who should reasonably , upon a fair and just account , desire the same . some time after that , i was desired to give them a meeting at ab-church london ; which ( as to so many pri 〈…〉 e and particular gentlemen ) i promised i would ; and accordingly did . and lest there should be any mistakes misapprehensions , or misconstructions of words , but that it might stand to be tried and examined by all men ; i put it in writing read it publikely to the whole assembly , and then gave it them , with my hand subscribed thereto : unto which was annexed some queries , whereunto i desired an answer in writing from m. shidrack simpson their called-pastor , on that day seven-night ; or else that some other might in love , peace , and quietness , have liberty to give answer thereunto , as my printed papers testifie . which request would not be received , neither hath himself , or any other of the clergie given answer thereunto , to this day : but in stead of answering the questions , he ( my self being not there present ) excommunicates me . whereupon , within four or five days after , i sent him a letter , in which was inclosed another paper , signifying my desire to have him prove those things which he calls errour and blasphemy , to be so , and that from scripture or reason ; wherein i also promised repentance , and publike recantation thereof , in case he should so prove them ; as also , my earnest desire of answer to those and the former queries proposed , in reference not onely to my own , but many others satisfaction : one whereof was this , verbatim , what the true and very hell is spoken of in scripture , and you from god or christ ( as you say ) so much promise to , and threaten the people with : the very right and true knowledge whereof , is of the greatest and highest concernment to be clearly made known and discovered to the people , of all other things ; all other things being but as it were accessaries thereunto ; therefore must certainly be made known to you , of you be what you say you are : yet it 's very much to be feared , that very few of you have the true knowledge either of the one or the other ; but that most fancie both the one and the other as the papists their purgatory , and the poets their elizian fields , is abundantly manifest : both god and the devil , both death and life , both heaven and hell , being very much nearer to us then we are aware of . whether this be the denial of the things or no , i commit to the judgement of all men . as also in the and pages of my book intituled parson simpson's excommunication excommunicated , where speaking of the clergie , you shall finde it thus : let me tell them this of a truth , and that which they shall assuredly finde one day , that except they break off their sins by true and unfeigned repentance their lying , their hypocrisie , their covetousness their railing and persecuting , they shall to hell , and be tormented day and night with the devils , yea and remain there until they have paid the utmost farthing . you have also in several other places of the said book , both heaven and hell according to the scripture fully asserted by me . in my letter before spoken of , i wrote to him that if he would promise me answer within some certain days therein prefixed ( the number whereof i do not now remember ) i should forbear to publish my second paper : which he not doing i then made publication thereof to the world , with this assertion , that if i proved not him and the rest of the clergie of england generally , who cry out of others for heresie and blasphemy the greatest deceivers or falsifiers of the truth , and blasphemers ( as themselves call it ) in the nation , let me die the death . i am the same still , and shall be ready upon my life to prove and make good the same against them , whenever i shall in a fair and just way be called to it . which i speak onely out of the love i have unto this nation , and the desire of its peace ; which cannot be , whilst they have any power or influence in , upon , and over the same : they have been , they are the chief occasioners of all the bloodshed that hath been , and is yet likely to be , in england , nay in all nations . some few weeks after this , i obtained a copie of the form of his excommunication , with his arguments against my positions ; to which i very shortly after gave answer in print : which discourse i dedicated to the parliament . which said book and papers , any who desires further satisfaction in the things discoursed may have them at m. giles calvert's bookseller , at the signe of the black spread-eagle at the west-end of pauls . not many days after this , tho. andrews , the cities lord maior , and one of the said simpsons society , who by his place and office is more especially bound to keep , defend , and preserve the laws of the nation , the liberties and freedoms of the people inviolate ; yet he , contrary thereunto , signes and sends a warrant to bring me before the bench at the sessions-house in the old bayly ; no fault , crime , or misdemeanour being specified in the said warrant : the illegality whereof was then and there declared by the lord chief justice rolls and baron thorp : by which act he is perjur'd , and ought of right to give an account to the common-wealth for his mal-administration of justice in this and several other particulars of far higher weight and concernment , which i now forbear to instance in . at my being brought thither , there were onely these two articles found and read against me , viz. that the soul of man is of the essence of god , and , that there is neither heaven nor hell but what is here . the lord chief justice rolls asked me what i said to it and whether i spake those words or no . my answer was , that there had been divers and several disputes at my house about those things ; and what my own opinion or judgement was therein , i had made it publike in print , and presented several members of the parliament and council of state therewith . and i farther said , that if i had said them very words as they were there laid down , yet was it not contrary unto , or against any act of parliament . to which neither the lord chief justice , nor any other of the bench , gave answer ; but there i stood some space of time , whilst they fell upon other business . at length , i asked the lord chief justice what i should do in the case , being thus like a rogue , murderer , or felon forcibly and violently taken out of my house , and that , now i was brought thither , no breach of any law whatsoever was found against me . the lord chief justice fell again upon other business . whereupon , i asked him again what i must do in the case ; and desired that he , as he was lord chief justice of england , would advise me . he answered , you must ( i think ) put in security to answer it the next sessions . to which i replied , i was forcibly , suddenly , and violently taken out of my house , and brought hither ; and i have no friend here . whereupon , m. recorder steel very civilly replied , that i was very well known , and my own word was sufficient . whereupon , my own word was taken to appear the next sessions ; which i accordingly did . then i found an indictment drawn against me , with much addition of words , and them laid down in another form then before , and much different from my true sence and meaning . then i was compelled to put in security to appear the sessions following , to answer to that indictment . accordingly i did appear : where , that morning they had appointed for my hearing , appeared also judge nicols , who , as he came not all the sessions before that morning , so he went away again assoon as he had given me my dispatch . before i came to answer , i demanded to have my prosecutors bound over , according to law , to make good the several charges laid down in the indictment against me . which by him was refused . i told him , i should then make no answer at all , except that he would there declare that the bench , upon my requiring , were not bound thereunto by law . he answered , no . whereupon i replied , and told him , how then , or of whom should i expect to receive satisfaction , for my molestation , injury , and charge , in case the crimes should not be proved against me ? his answer was , that it was now in this case , as it was formerly in the kings time : he that then prosecuted for the king , was not bound over ; neither is it necessary that he who prosecutes for the state should ; for there was but onely the change of the name : before , it was in the name of the king ; and now , in the name of the state . here ( gentlemen ) you have the judgement and opinion of a learned and reverend judge given upon the bench at the sessions what the nation hath run so many hazards , spent so much treasure , lost so many precious lives for , made so many fatherless and widows , so many poor dismembred creatures the land over , onely for the change of a name . and verily , as yet we have very little , if any thing at all more ; neither indeed shall or can we have , until those square-headed benchers be dismounted ; and their long-tail'd retinue thrown over the bars , and turned out of their several cloysters and meeting-places ; amongst whom is little to be found , except corruption , deceit , and confusion ; their very formalities , which they so much glory in , speaks no less : square-heads nor longtails neither will nor can perfect and settle the peoples or nations rights ; no , it must be round-heads : for nothing is or can be perfect , or bring forth perfection , but that which is round , perfectly round : square-heads are fit subjects to receive , & treasures to retain in their quadrangle-points , the several forms , dictates , subtil , diabolical , sophistical reasons and arguments of the corruptest times , persons , and interests ; accordingly are their critical , uncertain , irrational , corrupt , false , contradictory judgements , motions and arguments . let not themselves , or any other , be offended at these expressions , in discovery of truth , since the pleaders at the several bars , and those also upon the benches , are notoriously known to be conversant in such quibbles or expressions , upon most weighty occasions , to hide and obscure the truth . are their studies so much to study the law for defence of truth , or to contract the law into one perfect undivided and undividable being speaking one and the same thing always alike to all ? but contrarily , their care and study is , how to make the law speak multiplicities of riddles , whereby to confound the entire union-meaning thereof , and so to serve their own , their lords and masters turn , what the prince , state , or clients desires occasions and interests call for , or have occasion to use it in , though never so contrary to , or against it self , as it is or should be one pure simple act in reason neither looking backward nor forward but ever , & always , and in all times the same . how came the law in the late king's time so loudly , so strongly , so certainly and undeniably to speak his designes and interests so legal , so justifiable , that , in the grand case of ship-money , but two ( as i remember ) of all the judges dissented ? and also , how many went away with him , owned his proceedings to be according to law and sate at oxford in judicatory executing all things in a formality of law ? those who remained here , and joyned with the parliament , they declare and judge their proceedings warrantable , and justifiable also ; and both these by one and the same law . some , upon putting to death the late king , desert the parliament in that particular : others justifie that also to be legal and warrantable . some of the parliaments party , by those with the king , are adjudged and condemned for traitors : others , that were for the king against the parliament , are by those here adjudged and condemned for traitors also ; and this still by one and the same law . i would ask them all this one single question . whence , from what , or from whom your selves , or any other at this time , hold and derive your rights , power , and authority ? in , from , and by the law ; or in , from , and by the sword ? if in , by , and from the law ; then he or they who shall offer violation to any so holding and deriving , offers violation to the law , and ought to suffer for the breach and violation thereof according to the law . if in , from , and by the sword onely ; then are you , and all others so holding and deriving , accountable onely thereunto . in , from , and by both , you cannot hold and derive . to say , partly from one , and partly from the other , is inconsistent . the sword , indeed , as servant to the law , may execute its commands ; and so protect the law , which is its proper work : but then you must first finde a command in and from the law for the swords actings : if not , know , you are compleatly under the power , dictates and commands of the sword . what use or need then is there of any of your sittings , of any of your judgements or judicatories ? whilst the sword is in its regencie , there is no room for , nay all other laws , commands , and actings whatsoever , which are not subservient unto it , cease , as being altogether inconsistent ; and must be and remain so , until it have ended its conquest , and the people re-united into one free and entire body , for the setling and establishing themselves in peace , security , and rest , by such laws as themselves shall chuse : then is the sword again given up into the peoples power and command ; having effected its right end , is transmitted unto its right place . it s true original was from the people , for their defence in their rights and liberties : and when it hath attained that , then must it to them be resigned ; and this is the right end and nature of all true conquests , and truely noble conquerors , or rather , of all true and noble saviours , redeemers , or deliverers . and truely , for any man or men to conquer , that him or themselves may reign and rule , sit in and enjoy their seats and places conquered , his or their private and particular interests and accommodations , is not thank-worthy ; but this , to make or give enjoyments to others : and this , at least in form and shew , hath been the practice of all conquerors ; of which this nation hath had manifest experience : no sooner hath any conquest been made by any , but the conqueror calls a parliament , summons the people to chuse themselves laws ; though their ends have been to settle themselves . here , gentlemen , you may see who or what hath been , next to the clergie , the greatest cause of england's miseries . the clergie hath preached us into blood , and hath brought gospel for justification of each party ; and the other long-rob'd gentlemen , they have pleaded and argued us into blood , and adjudged each parties actions and proceedings legal : and by them of each party , hath the people been condemned by one and the same law . thus both clergie and lawyer can make their cameleon shew any colour . how then we the people can expect peace and settlement whilst either of these two generations remain amongst us , is to me a paradox . i would not here be taken to charge or condemn every particular gentleman of either calling or profession ; for i know of both that are truely honourable , for the sincerity of their affections to the nations rights and priviledges , its peace and prosperity ; in respect to which they are willing not onely to sacrifice their places , callings , and professions , but their lives also : but i speak as to that principle which reigns in and guides the most or generality of them , who have ever been found to transgress for a morsel of bread ; and whom if i prove not to be the greatest traitors and enemies to this commonwealth in the nation ( if to subvert and pervert the laws of the nation be the greatest treason , as it in many parliaments hath been adjudged ; or that ( according to that undeniably-true and generally-received maxime ) it be granted , that salus populi suprema lex , that the highest , supremest law of laws and so end of all law , is the peoples safety ) or if those two judges died justly , whose fact and execution , for their brethren the judges sakes , are still kept in remembrance , in that place at westminster where the king and lords used to sit in the time of parliaments by the wool-sacks , the judges seats , when called in for their counsel , as a continual monitor unto them , and all that succeed them for ever : i say , if i prove it not , then let me die the death , as i justly deserve , should i not make good this my charge against them , which i am and shall be ready to do , at any time , before a competent judge & jury . and , to say the truth , the highest treason must needs arise from the breach of the highest trust . now then , he or they to whom the law , with the administration thereof , is intrusted , have undoubtedly the highest and greatest trust : for it , namely the law , is of the highest and greatest concernment to all and every particular person in the nation , of any or all other things : there is a sacredness in it , and it ought to be kept sacred and inviolate by every one of us , upon the highest penalties ; it being that , and that onely , which without and in stead of castles , bulworks , forts , and towers , keeps , preserves , and maintains the whole nation or people , not onely in a joynt union and communion one with another , but also all and every one in their several and particular rights and liberties in peace and security . and this , gentlemen , my brethren of this nation , is our law ; which had our judges and their dependencies kept pure and inviolate ; had they fully , plainly , and stoutly cleared and maintained , according to their oathes , places , and trusts reposed in them , these wars must of necessity have been prevented . and if we yet could by any means obtain this thing , namely , the clearing and vindicating of our laws in the particulars mentioned , we might presently turn our swords into plow-shares , and our spears into pruning-hooks ; which cannot be done , until these men , with their appendixes , be undone . i shall now , after this long digression made for the nations sake and cause , ( which i hope pleads me justly excused ) return to the prosecution of my relation . my next reply to judge nicols was that in case he would there in open court declare that it was a legal and just proceeding , not ( as is before expressed ) to have my prosecutors bound over to make good the indictment against me , i would then proceed to answer the charge . he answered , it was legal . then i did proceed , and spake to the indictment it self , which runs thus : that robert norwood being one most monstrous in his opinions loose wicked , and abominable in his practices , not onely to the notorious corrupting and disordering , but even to the dissolution of all humane society , rejecting the use of any gospel-ordinances , doth deny the necessity of civil and moral righteousness amongst men . to which things when i came to speak , and declare in open court to the people , that if any man or men could prove these things against me , i was willing not onely to suffer imprisonment , but death also ; i was answered from the bench , that that was no part of my charge , but it was onely as a preamble . then i am sure it was a most scandalous indictment , or an indictment drawn most scandalously ; which is contrary to our law , and for which , he who drew the same is accountable to the law : and for what end it was , except to make me odious to the people , or to pick mens pockets , or both i know not . when i came to the several things in the indictment , which were a number of words put together , to what end or purpose i know not , except to make me ( as i said before ) more odious to the people ; there being but one thing in the whole indictment , consisting of thirteen sheets and a half , colourably coming within the compass of the act or law by which i was tried , called , an act against several atheistical blasphemous and execrable opinions ; which is , that i should say , as it is laid down in one part of the indictment , that there is not any such thing as the people call hell and damnation : and in another place , that i should say , there is neither hell nor damnation . neither of which , were my opinion such as condemned by that act , which condemns such onely who deny both heaven and hell , both salvation and damnation ; and this must be testified to be avowedly done , and that by two witnesses , as is expresly laid down in that act. now my charge in the indictment at most is onely for saying there is neither hell nor damnation , or such a hell and damnation as the people imagine ; and this is testified but by one witness ; which also was spoken in discourse , or dispute , therefore could not , upon a rational and just account , be said to be avowedly ; especially my book and papers , attested with my own hand fully speaking my owning and acknowledging both heaven and hell , both salvation and damnation ; which i offered to give as evidence , but it would not be received . and the law always ought to be interpreted in the best sence , to the most advantage ; and not in the worst sence , or to the most and greatest disadvantage to the party accused . so that you may here see what ground there was for either judge or jury to finde me guilty . let all men take , and lay my charge in the indictment to their own rule , without shewing me the least favour , or being in the least tittle partial , and see and judge what agreement there is between them ; how or wherein any thing charged upon me in that indictment , is condemned or adjudged by that act or rule . yet see the close combination between the clergie and the other gentlemen of the long-robe , together with the chief judge at the sessions , the present lord maior andrews . sidrack simpson his called-pastor excommunicates me ; but as yet hath not , either to the world , or my self , given an account of that action , nor proved the things asserted by me such as he condemns them for ; no , he dares not that his doings should betried and examined ; neither himself , nor the rest of his brethren , dare come unto the light ; why ? because their deeds and doctrines are evil : truth never shuns the light , but readily comes to the test and trial . he having excommunicated me , andrews gets me to the sessions-house , being ( as i said before ) chief judge there . the clergie ply it hard , to get me turned out of the high court of justice , that i might not have any shadow of honour , esteem , or protection from the state . parson caryl by name , to whom i sent one of my papers for answer , in respect of what passed between him , his brother owen , and my self , before his excellencie the lord general cromwel ; but from none of them ever did i receive any answer : onely caryl meeting of me , told me he wondered the parliament would continue me in that court . to which i answered i never was a dishonour to the nation , nor ever did any thing unworthy a gentleman . and i would have him and all men know , that it 's neither names nor places will make me or any man the less or the more honourable ; no , it is the inward power or spirit acting it self forth in truely honourable and noble actings , that makes or gives those denominations : it 's not names that makes or gives the things ; but it 's things that gives or makes the names . upon my being indicted at the sessions , alderman estwick moved that i might be turned out of the court , though yet no crime was found or proved against me . if not justice , yet wisdom and discretion would have led him to have forborn such a motion , until some crime worthy thereof had been proved against me : he knows very well , that many times an innocent and guiltless person is indicted yea , and condemned too , when the nocent and guilty goes free : he needed go no further for a president or example , then himself and the lord maior ; which in due time shall be made appear to the world ; both of them deserving to be indicted upon a far higher account then an errour in judgement , which yet also remains to be proved such . upon this motion , and perhaps the instigation of one or two more , without the consent , vote , order , or desire of the court , the attorney-general makes a motion in the house for my discharge from that place . what just ground or cause he had for it , i leave the world to judge ; as also , if he had not just ground and cause so to do , whether he did not therein notoriously abuse the house . the attorney-general , and some other of the long-robe-benchers , taking themselves ( as some of themselves were pleased to speak ) to be often affronted by me , especially in the case of sir john stowel ; first , in that i told the atturney-general it was not fit for him publikely to threaten that court , to which , in that capacity , he was but a servant : and then , when the court was in argument concerning the business of the said sir john stowel , the aforesaid judge nicols , contrary to the orders of the court , took me up very angerly , because i said i loved the nation so well , and so much respected its reputation and honour , that rather then the faith thereof , so solemnly given by the army , and confirmed by both houses of parliament , should be violated , and so his blood brought upon the nation ; i had rather go to the gallows , and be hanged my self : or words to this purpose . but , in stead of looking into the true state of the matter , and weight of so blunt an argument , he told me expresly , he would endure no such words : yet was not he president of the court , neither had he in the least more priviledge of vote or speech there then my self . some other words passed , which i shall forbear to report . this judge nicols , as i said before , comes now down on purpose to be my judge . here lies the sum of the whole matter : simpson excommunicates me , but as yet hath proved nothing worthy of blame against me , much less of such a censure ; gives no account either to me , or to the world , of this action . the lord maior andrews gets me indicted at the sessions-house , sends an illegal warrant for me , declared so by judge rolls and baron thorp , upon the bench at the sessions ; executes the said warrant by a hired constable , one of no worth , by whom i was forcibly taken out of my house , and carried to the sessions . estwick ( perhaps smelling that i was acquainted with and took notice of something he must give an account of ) moves my ejectment out of the high-court of justice . the attorney-general glad thereof , receives the motion , though without order or direction from the court , and moves the house : the house receives the motion , coming from one of their own members , he being also in great trust for the management of business for that court , and gives me a discharge . now comes the last game to be plaid , and that is , by some means or other , if possible , to fasten something upon me that should render or make appear to the whole world , that i justly deserved all these things ; else it must lie as a blot upon them all for ever : therefore must judge nicols be sent down to do the work . now let all the nation be judge in the case ; i will be silent : if i have transgress'd the law , let me not be spared , but let the law be executed in its rigour ; i beg no favour . but in case i had said or held some such thing in discourse , or by way of disputation , as that act condemns , as the witnesses testified it was ; shall that be taken and received for an avowed act , rather then that which i have attested under my hand , dedicated and presented to the highest judicatory in the nation , which , as i said before , i offered as testimony , but it was refused ? this is a strange acting construction , and interpretation of the act , and an unheard-of judgement upon a mans avowed principles . i further told the court , that if disputations were not allowed , or if men must be called to account and judged for what in disputation is either affirmed or denied , the universities and schools of learning must be shut up , and all mens mouthes stopped : for , in all disputes , there must be the negative and the affirmative ; disputes being still of contraries . and verily , this is no other then to binde men up according to the laws of the bishop of rome , and our former bishops here , to their faith and belief ; which is contrary to what the parliament hath constantly held forth to the people in their several votes and declarations ; that act being intended principally , if not onely , against the carnal and fleshly actings of corrupt and bestial men . but , if i mistake not , as i have formerly published , the true knowledge of god and of the devil , of hell and heaven , of salvation and condemnation or damnation , is of the highest concernment to be truely known , and rightly understood , of any other thing ; these being , or at leastwise are made to be , the very end of all the religion , praying , preaching , and all things else of that nature : therefore doubtless men may not reasonably be debarred from searching for or after the knowledge of that upon which the all of man depends . men have as little reason to trust the clergie now , as those in christ's time had to trust the scribes and pharisees : as they were advised not to trust them , so , say i , it 's good not to trust too much to these , lest the blinde leading the blinde , both fall into the ditch . and verily , if they cannot tell us truely what either of them be , or wherein , whereby , or wherewith they consist , subsist , and exsist ; they may as well lead us to hell as to heaven , into condemnation or damnation , as well as into salvation ; to the devil , as well as to god . this i am sure of , that most of their preachings and practices are from the devil , if the scriptures speak truth ; and therefore must needs lead thither : what else means the bleating of those many poor ewes and lambs left fatherless through your instigations and preachings ? have you not , amongst you preached three nations into blood ? can you , now you have kindled this fire from hell , which is like to devour and consume all can you ( i say ) by your preachings quench it again ? you may see it 's true what james saith , behold , how great a thing a little fire kindleth ! m. simpson you see your self , and all men may see it , in this matter , what inconveniences you have put the state and many others upon ; and you your self know your self to be the occasioner of it : and should not a spirit of more meekness and moderation appear in those that are persecuted , then in their persecutors , a new fire , or fresh flame would presently lay hold upon the nation . i have done with you for this time . then i told the court likewise , that it was an easie matter to be mistaken , or to be traduced in a mans words , especially in argument or disputation ; and it was a very easie matter to do it by any man in his pulpit ; he might take one part of his speech , and not the other . i told the court also , that if i did speak the words in the sence they understood them , i did there unsay them again . yet therein i desired i might not be mistaken : for as i accounted it my honour to desert an errour , so i did also account it my honour not to desert the least truth ; neither should i , were i presently to die in the place . i further said , i never did , neither do i now deny the things ; but do here , in the presence of the court , and all the people , acknowledge both . and i further told the court , that if any man accused for heresie and an heretick , even in the hottest of persecutions in queen maries days ; yet if at the stake , or any time before , he made his recantation , he was acquitted , discharged , and delivered . and i did there solemnly declare , that i held and owned both heaven and hell , both salvation and damnation : but all this would not serve turn ; i must to new-gate , there to be kept prisoner for six months , without bayl or mainprise . i have concluded my relation , and give all the world to know , i am not at enmity with , nor bear i evil will unto or against any person in the nation . i know every one is in his proper work , and that all and every one , yea all things ( as it is written ) shall work together for good ; therefore am i not offended at any . and because i love the nation therefore would i that the nation might be saved : it cannot be saved but in righteousness : for as all things that are made and created , must be saved by him that made and created them ; so also must they be saved in that way or word , in or by which they were made and created ; and that is in righteousness ; which way or word is christ the righteousness , or christ the wisdom of the father : for wisdoms works or goings forth are all in righteousness ; or what is done or brought forth in righteousness , is the work of wisdom , or wisdoms workings , in which and by which the worlds were made , as is fully asserted and inserted by and in the scriptures . all and every unrighteousness is sin , as the scriptures also testifie ; and all sin is weakness : and therefore , as it is written , sin or weakness certainly bringeth forth death . every departure from light , is darkness ; every departure from strength , is weakness ; every departure from life , is death : according to the several measures or degrees of their departure or separation , so much are they wrapped , infolded , involved , or sealed up in their contraries ; though all these names signifie but one and the same thing . and verily , nothing is truely righteous , will or can work righteousness perfectly , but love , love in truth : names , and shews , and forms , will not do it ; but love in life , love in power . the reason is , nothing is truely wise but it ; and it 's better then wisdom , or it 's wisdoms excellencie ; or the excellencie of wisdom is love : and therefore saith christ of himself , behold a wiser then solomon is here : hence christ is said to come out of the bosome of the father , because he is the father's love , or the love of , or rather in the father : and hence is he said to be the saviour of the world because nothing but love either will or can save it ; because nothing else can in truth work righteousness but it ; nothing else being truely righteous , or righteousness in truth , but it . brethren be not deceived ; it 's not the sufferings , it 's not the blood , it 's not the death of christ slain at jerusalem , will save you , as witnesseth the scriptures : this is the saviour or salvation , that great salvation god sent into the world : therefore when he comes , he brings this command with him , namely , love one another ; and saith , as the truth is , that under that is comprehended all . and you must know god , or christ ; and his commands are himself . now i say , as before it hath been said , that light or truth is come into the world , or hath received its resurrection , though not as yet its ascension in and over the world : but as men then did , so men now do , love darkness more then light ; why ? because their deeds are evil ; and this therefore is the condemnation . brethren , it 's undeniably true , that he which doth , or that which is truth , willingly and readily comes unto the light , at least , if it may have liberty so to do : and on the contrary , it is as certain , that he which doth , or that which is evil , as much a voids and shuns the light . brethren , the days of your ignorance god hath hither to winked at , but now he willeth that all men should come to the knowledge of the truth : wherefore , brethren , let me in love , in the bowels of love , of mercy and compassion , intreat and beseech you . and i do earnestly intreat you all of and in the nation , of all ranks , qualities , states , and conditions ; you of the clergie , you the professors of the law , i beseech you again and again , to consider , all unrighteousness is sin , all sin is weakness , weakness bringeth forth death : why , o why then will you die ? behold , death lies at the very door of this nation . consider , is any thing called for but your unrighteousness , which will certainly be your death ? what is it you are to part with ? is it any thing but that which will evidently and eminently be your destruction ? consider , all things must die , must pass away , but love , but charity ; and they , or that , abides for ever ; that is god , that is christ ; to whom or to which when the whole man is in the same love subjected and united , then indeed is it properly said to be saved , or to be in a condition of salvation , when that true light which is life , or life which is light , that wisdom which is pure and unspotted of the world , free from all flesh and fleshliness , yet living in flesh , but not flesh ; that is , he or it which is not touched with humanity , even the alone-wisdom of the eternal deity in himself ; which when he or it shall arise in his or its own pure light , life , and strength in us , and we in the sight of the loveliness , beauty , and excellencie thereof , are in our selves , in our earthly , selfish , fleshly , carnal , or worldliness , subjected and united in love thereunto ; then , from thence , in the light , life , power , and strength thereof , shall we act in the righteousness of , or rather , in love unto all . verily , i cannot but abhor the doctrine and principles of most christians ; and i profess before all the world , they are principles and doctrines of devils , and the very bane of or unto all godliness and honesty , wholly destructive to the true scripture , which hath and must have its union with , and so its life , subsistence , existence , and consistence in the light and truth it self ; the very form , shadow , or outside of things , being set up , worshipped , adored , received , trusted unto , and rested in , in stead of the light , life , power , and truth it self . i will give you a very late example or president , ( just now brought to my hand by an honest gentleman ) which was of an officer belonging to the excise-office london , who having wickedly forsworn himself , and being reproved for it , readily replied , that christ died for perjured persons . and , to say the very truth , it is that we all wipe our mouthes with : we sin by oppression , by injustice , by deceit , or by other carnal , fleshly , sensual , and devilish actings : why christ died for sinners ; we lay all upon the back of a poor weak man like our selves , dying at jerusalem : and this also the clergie ( when men are upon their death-beds ) stop into their mouthes , with some of their bread and wine perhaps also ; and then all 's well , they must to heaven without dispute . o rome , rome , rome ! my dear country-men , you of this nation , i speak unto you all ; for whom , and whose true and real peace and happiness , i could ( god is my witness , from my very soul i speak it ) with much more chearfulness and readiness of spirit be offered up a sacrifice in the fire , then to be freed and delivered from my present bonds and imprisonment : o that i could deliver you from the present , and those future sorer evils that are coming upon you , except repentance indeed prevents them ! brethren , you may easily see where your salvation lies , who or what your salvation is : there is no salvation but in union with light and life ; no salvation but in christ , the righteousness and wisdom of the father ; wherefore , in isaiah he is called the wonderful counseller , and so the prince of peace , whose kingdom must be established with judgement and justice : he is there also called the mighty god , and the everlasting father . in isai. . , i have ( saith the text ) called thee in righteousness : so that you see there is no peace , no salvation , no rest , but in union ; no union , but in righteousness ; no righteousness , but in love : your inward or inmost salvation lieth here , and your outward , utmost or outmost salvation lieth here also . if the outmost figures stand and hold in union & communion each with other , according to , and in proportion with the inmost light and life , receiving their strength and subsistence from thence ; then are they safe or saved . thus one operating into three , and three operating again into one , is the life of all and every one ; which speaks the wisdom , love , and righteousness of or in the father , which is the onely and alone saviour or salvation , and that is union . he who died at jerusalem , i say , my brethren , is not the christ , is not the saviour the scriptures point you unto : i deny not but that he or that which is the life and light , and so the saviour of the world , abode or dwelt in , and manifested it self with , by , and thorow that veil of flesh , the anointing or anointed of the father ; and that he was the anointed above his fellows : and it must be the very same anointing that must save you : know you not that christ is in you , except you be reprobates ? that is , as it in the first epistle to the corinthians , as he is of god made unto us his power and wisdom , and his wisdom and righteousness . christ in or after the flesh , in his particular form , cannot be in any man : in and after the spirit in the love , wisdom and righteousness of the father , he is and may be : so that this must be your eye-salve , your meat and your drink which you must be made partakers of , have fellowship and communion with , even the pure virgin-spirit , which hath not , neither can it defile it self with women , with fleshly or earthly weaknesses ; and not his corporeal flesh and blood : for consider , that which you cannot participate of , that can you not be saved by : can you eat his flesh , and drink his blood ? could you , that could but feed and refresh the flesh and blood : for nothing can feed or refresh that which is not of the same nature and essence with it self . in all unions , there is necessarily required oneness or sameness : then needs must it be meant of a more neer invisible nature and essence which we are to be made partakers of . and as that place cannot be taken in a literal sence , according to the outward form of flesh ; for , as it 's said , his words are spirit and life : so of necessity must all the other texts in scripture coherent to that , speaking of his outward form and figure in all things relating thereunto , be taken in reference to an inward invisible power , nature & essence . and indeed , we all who will live in the life of the spirit , must be slain in , to or after the flesh , the life of the flesh must be totally extinguished , before we shall or can live the pure virgin-life of or in the spirit . brethren , consider and know , that the whole scripture , yea the whole creation , is but a dark mystery , riddle , parable , ar sealed book unto us , until the spirit of light from god open , unfold unriddle , or unseal the same . i having much exceeded what i intended , in this last and some other discourses occasionally falling in with this relation of the state of my case , must necessarily break off very abruptly , having onely leasure to subscribe my self , the nations faithful and truely-real friend and servant , in and under the highest and supremest law of love , unto death to be commanded , robert norwood . postscript . understanding that it is by divers reported that i should carry on some private or particular designe , i thought it convenient , both in respect to my self , and all others , to make this my solemn protestation , in the sight of god , and all men , that i am , and ever have been , so far from designing , or joyning with designers , that i have constantly declined all converse with , and temptations from men in or of that way . yet , according to that little spark of wisdom and light in me , have i been made willing and ready to embrace and receive every truth made known to me , in and from whomsoever it hath appeared , without respect to persons , or minding my particular outward advantage or disadvantages therein , or thereby : which must and will be acknowledged and subscribed to by all that know me ; and this in peace and love : my voice hath not been lifted up , nor my cry ever heard in the streets . in the late king's time , my temptations were not little , nor sollicitations few , with offers sutable , and far exceeding what upon any account could be thought of by me , would i but have complied with , or but sate silent in reference to the interests then on foot . all that know me , know me to be very free , plain , and open , almost to all men : i was plain in the king's time , plain with him and his council at the then-council-board ; by whom , and for my non-compliance with his illegal , unjust , destructive proceedings to himself and the nation or commonwealth , my sufferings were not small nor inconsiderable . in the late earl of essex his time , i had the like sollicitations for a compliance with them then in their plottings , complottings , and counterplottings : i was then by them threatned also for opposing the scotish interest then on foot ; though then i did nothing but in the publike view of all men : i dealt plainly with those designers : i usually , as in other things , so in this , declared my self , that i would not be guilty of so great an absurdity and ridiculousness , as to say , when i fought against the king's army , i fought not against the king , when he was in the head of it , and they commissioned by him . i have not , from the beginning of these times , wanted the counsel of many , and they no slender or weak statists or polititians in account of the world , as to the carriage and ordering of my self and affairs according to the maximes and principles thereof : i have ever answered , honesty slights policy ; and that i ever accounted plain honesty the best of policies . neither ever could i , or shall i , by all the polititians in the world , be beaten out of that maxime . to me it 's most safe and sure : for what is attained by policie , must be kept by policie , force , or both ; in both which ( besides the various perplexing courses , countercourses the spirit of man must run , act or be acted in , the continual cares and fears that possess , and so dispossess , not onely themselves , but others , of all true and real enjoyments ; and to the securing whereof , nothing , no relations , no conditions may or must be spared ) there is , neither can there be any thing but uncertainty of and in the end : and this truely and properly is the devil , or that deceiver in man . politicks and designers ever run in a retrograde motion unto god or truth : therefore can there be no rest or peace , no certainty or stability . where there is not a true and certain foundation , there cannot be a firm , stable , and lasting structure . it hath been often told me by a gentleman known to and coversant with most of the actors and plotters of these times , and is pretty well read in politicks , that i had always luck to rise of the right side . my answer still was , would he be honest , he would do so too . i never did , neither will i ever do any thing that relates to the publike , but what i care not who sees and knows . so far am i from a designer , that i could willingly carry all my actings , designings , and plottings , upon my forehead , plain , open , and evident , to be seen and read by all men , of all sorts , sides , or parties whatsoever . nay , i do , and ever did account it much belowe a truely worthy , noble , and ingenuous spirit , to act , or be acted in , with , or by any designes or designers whatsoever . it 's said , that every wise man hath his end : i say too , if his end be true , and that his end and way be one and the same , else he is no : a wise man , or acts not in wisdom . if that i would have , desire or seek , be just and right , i neither care nor fear who sees or knows it . i must and will say , whatsoever man or men judge me a plotter or designer , they are themselves deeply guilty , and from that guilt ises that his suspicion . he who stands firm in himself , whose deeds and actings have been and are in truth , fears not the greatest or suddenest approaches of the highest light . i will give them and all men these two reasons , which may strongly induce them to believe the contrary . first , i never did , neither do i desire greatness in the world . secondly , i never did , nor do i desire popularity . for i well know them both , and what their natural tendencies are . though many things of high , if not of highest concernment to this nation , have come thorow my hands , as is known to many ; yet have i seldom or never appeared in them . verily , i have had as many opportunities and advantages cast upon me for my particular advancement , as most men ; and many have judged me of as answerable parts . it 's true , i had once , and but once ( in all these troubles ) thoughts of enjoying my self quietly in peace and rest , without any more medling or looking upon the present state and course of things ; and so of building unto my self a nest here : and to that end , did my heart and hand exceed perhaps its due bounds : but god met me , and fell upon me with blowe upon blowe . i ever did , and do still desire a private life above all , and have again endeavoured it , though in a very mean condition comparatively : but i must not be my own carver . i have , i do , and that upon the duest , most serious , and most deliberate advices , thoughts , and consultations in and with my self , judge and determine , neither poverty nor riches to be the best , the surest and safest condition ; therefore the most desirable . the lord , who knows my heart , knows it was unfeigned love to the nation , its common good , common weal , or weal common , not to my private or particular self , hath drawn me forth in and unto all my publike actings . had i sought advantages to and for my self , i could not have missed them : but , in stead thereof , i have spent my self , my time , and estate , without any satisfaction . what i was at first , i am the same still . there seemed to me , in the beginning of these times , to be a very free , upright , ingenuous , innocent conjunction of hearts and spirits for a real common good , for liberty and freedom in truth , for reformation in all things according to the rule of truth , real , and not verbal , formal , or notional onely ; and this indeed was the end of all our covenants and engagements ; which shall yet be brought to pass and accomplished , which shall yet stand for and against : and this continued , until the corrupt , private , and particular interests of some in authority , ( with the clergie , and by their instigations ) rent and tore in pieces , making that which in a true , rational , grammatical sence is one entire union in it self , looking onely one way , to look as many several ways as their several interests & foolish fancies led them to imagine ; even as they do the scriptures , and all things else ; union speaking death to them , their subsistences being in and by dividings and divisions . i must deal plainly with the actors and officers of and in this state , as i have formerly with those in the late king's time : your actings , your ways , and workings , are not sutable to , nor agreeable with principles of honour and honesty , peace and safety , either in reference to your selves , or the commonwealth , but directly destructive to both . have you brought salvation , liberty , and freedom to your selves ? know , you cannot enjoy these without them ; your all lies wrapped up in them , though not theirs in you . look to it , i intreat you . should i say otherwise , i should be found a flatterer , lyer , and dissembler , and for ever unworthy to have respect from , or be admitted to the meanest trust or service in or to any prince or state whatsoever . robert norwood . finis . reader , in stead of judge nicols , read judge warberton . an ansvver to the articles against master calamy, master martiall, master burton, master peters, master moleigne, master case, m. sedgwicke, m. evans, &c. and many other painfull divines who were impeached of high treason by his majesty : first answering particularly the articles themselves, then shewing the mis-information of his majestie by the bishops, concerning the same : expressing the great care and vigilancy of those theologians which they have and doe daily undertake with great zeale for the rooting out of popery the confounding of rome and for the erecting the pious truth and sincerity of the holy gospel of christ. calamy, edmund, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing c ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing c estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; :e , no ) an ansvver to the articles against master calamy, master martiall, master burton, master peters, master moleigne, master case, m. sedgwicke, m. evans, &c. and many other painfull divines who were impeached of high treason by his majesty : first answering particularly the articles themselves, then shewing the mis-information of his majestie by the bishops, concerning the same : expressing the great care and vigilancy of those theologians which they have and doe daily undertake with great zeale for the rooting out of popery the confounding of rome and for the erecting the pious truth and sincerity of the holy gospel of christ. calamy, edmund, - . [ ], p. printed for william bond ..., london : . attributed to edmund calamy. cf. blc. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng treason -- england. trials (treason) -- england -- th century. great britain -- history -- charles i, - . a r (wing c ). civilwar no an ansvver to the articles against master calamy, master martiall, master burton, master peters, master moleigne, master case, m. sedgwicke, calamy, edmund a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an ansvver to the articles against master calamy , master martiall , master burton , master peters , master moleigne , master case , m. sedgwicke , m. evans , &c. and many other painfull divines , who were impeached of high treason by his majesty . first answering particularly the articles themselves , then shewing the mis-information of his majestie by the bishops , concerning the same . expressing the great care and vigilancy of those theologians , which they have , and doe daily undertake with great zeale , for the rooting out of popery , the confounding of rome , and for the erecting the pious truth , and sincerity of the holy gospel of christ . london printed for william bond , and are to be sold over against the white horse in grubstreet . . doctrina parit virtvtem an answer to the articles against master calamy , master marshall , master burton , master peters , master moleigne , master case , master sedgwicke , master evans , &c. and many other painfull divines , who were impeached of high treason by his majesty . where vertue flourisheth , there malice strives to confound , and emulation to subvert . this hell-nourished malice has been entertained in the hearts of some malignant , and ill-affected members to the church , and in their inveterate spleene they have endeavoured to eradicate that basis or firme foundation of faith , which was laid in christ by zealous divines . i need not speake too obscurely , for my meaning includes the bishops , who have envyed the prosperity of religion a long time , and have diligently aboured to supplant the same by preposterous introducement of popery , ceremoniall superstitions , and canonicall innovations . and who soever that was zealous for the truth , and did in any manner oppose them in their prelaticall institutions , was either prosecuted by them in the extreame severity of justice , ( and that sometimes extended too beyond its limits ) or else suspended by them tam ab officio , quàm ábeneficio . thus they tyrannically insulted over the church , and without any let or contradiction usurped , whatsoever pleased themselves best . they have often times deluded the king with calumnious , and parasiticall suggestions , and by that meanes , under a pretence of his protection , have surreptitiously inserted divers things unknowne to his majestie . but they themselves being found too vitiously delinquent by the parliament , were many of them arraigned of high treason , and committed to the tower , where they maliciously first forged articles of high treason against master pym , the lord kymbolton , &c. and withall directed the same unto his majestie , with a stupendious declaration concerning them : and implored his consent unto them . but they were intercepted in that frustrate expectation : then they moulded second articles of high treason against master calamy , master marshall , master burton , master case , master sedgwicke , master evan , &c. with many other painfull divines : intimating againe to his majestie , that they were traitors , and were great disturbers of the church , who did not onely substract , or at least laboured to induce the people to substract lawfull obedience to his imperiall crowne , but also did derogate obsequious loyalty , both frō his royall dignity in postponing him behind the parliament . but give me leave ( gentle reader ) to discusse the verity of the thing , and to answer these poore or at least false subjections against them . as for the first article , their actions can sufficiently testifie to the contrary , for rather then disturbers of the church , they have laboured to extract all divisions , and disturbances from it , endeavouring to regulate the free power , and authority thereof , according to the holy word of god , as it is specified , or at least prototypically presignified in the scriptures . for their substraction of loyalty from the crowne , and their labouring to induce the people to substract their dayly practise in their preaching can apparently nullifie : for they have always pressed , and exstimulated the people with great fervency of affection to all possible obedience to his majesty , and all requisit loyalty to his imperiall crowne . and seeing these two have beene found false and erronious , the other consequently must be an untruth , for they have laboured to bring the people to become obsequious reciprocally , and mutually as well to the king , as parliament , so that by subsequent conclusion , no post-position can be found inclusive in them . but i suppose , that it was the bishops sole malice to misinforme the king , having an intestine envy against them . for because they would have introduced popery , and these laborious divines did beat it downe to the confusion of rome , and its adherents , therefore they have laboured by all possible meanes ( if they could ) to supplant them , and subvert their intentions . but ( alas ) god is more powerfull than the divell : men in authority may triumph , and usurpe too much arrogancy over their brethren for a time , but at length the same machination which they intended against others , shall fall on their owne heads . for these painefull divines have not onely zealously opposed those romish innovations , which lately began almost to flourish in our church : but have likewise laboured with all sedulity , care , and vigilancy to reduce the same to the sincere truth of the holy gospell of christ . yet notwithstanding they have beene opprobriously scandalized by the prelates , and their adherents , having invective aspersions cast upon their innocuous names ; the reason no man can perfectly enucleate , unlesse their intents were to bring the church to an anarchie : for if the pillars of the church be shaken , yea taken away , the structure can no longer remaine , and the foundation it selfe will be everted . yet in spite of all their malice , they are defended from the tyrannicall mindes and intentions of the bishops , and will maugre all their wolvish resolutions , be preserved from their nefarious machinations against them : yet envy is a most insufferable torment , and greater than any tyranny , therefore i will conclude with that sentence in latine . episcoporum — invidia siculi non invenêre tyranni majus tormentum . — finis . a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, on the and days of july, containing the tryals of several persons for murder, many for robberies : one young fellow found guilty of a rape, also the tryal of a female-muggleton for blasphemy, and for all the other malefactors that for any considerable crimes were there arraigned : with the number of those that are condemn'd, burn'd in the hand, and to be whipt, &c. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayley, on the and days of july, containing the tryals of several persons for murder, many for robberies : one young fellow found guilty of a rape, also the tryal of a female-muggleton for blasphemy, and for all the other malefactors that for any considerable crimes were there arraigned : with the number of those that are condemn'd, burn'd in the hand, and to be whipt, &c. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) [ ], p. printed for d.m., london : . "with allowance." imperfect: pages faded with print show-through. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials -- england. crime -- england. criminals -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - derek lee sampled and proofread - derek lee text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , on the , and , days of july , . containing the tryals of several persons for murder ; many for robberies . one young fellow found guilty of a rape . also the tryal of a female-muggleton for blasphemy . and all other the malefactors that for any considerable crimes were there arraigned . with the number of those that are condemn'd , burn'd in the hand , and to be whipt , &c. with allowance . london : printed for d. m. . a narrative of the proceedings at the session for london and middlesex , holden at the old bailey , on the third and fourth days of july , . the first brought to a tryal was a young man charged with stealing a silver tankard of the value of l. s. out of a gentlemans house in the parish of st. brides ; the prisoner appeared to be of an idle loose conversation , but no proof being made directly of his taking the plate , nor its being found with , or disposed of by him , ( for indeed it never was heard of ) he was thereupon brought in not guilty . an elderly comely woman was convicted of stealing a green silk petticoat on the first of july , from a shop keeper near pauls , whither she came on pretence of buying , but it being missed before she was out of sight , she was brought back , and at the end of the shop , droped the petticoat , but the jury were so favorable , as to value it but at d. so that her back is like to pay the wages due to the activity of her fingers . the next was a young fellow for a filthy bruitish offence being arrained on the statute of eliz. cap. . for having the carnal knowledge of a maiden child , under the age of ten years , the case was thus , ( as far as 't is necessary or fit with modesty to be related ) on the twenty fifth of may last , a poor woman-sent her child being between eight and nine years old to a masters house of hers for six pence , which she had before earned ; this gentleman happened then to be abroad , and the prisoner ( a lusty lad of about or years old ) being his prentice , invited the girl in , but she refusing , he pluckt her in and carried her into a back room , telling her he would give her the six pence anon , but having shut the door , laid her on the chairs , and fell to practice his brutality , the consequence of which is , that the child to this day has a disease , as was attested by a chirurgeon belonging to the hospital where she is in cure ; the child fearing the mother would have beat her , did not presently declare the matter , though she came home crying , but there was little notice taken then , nor indeed till on the wednesday following , some unusual symptomes caused the mother to inquire into it , and then had a full discovery ; nor did the prisoner when soon after she taxed him much deny it , but seemed to make some overtures of paying d. a week toward her cure ; so that the matter of fact was proved as was possible in such a case by the testimony of a midwife , and other matrons , and the child 's own relation who declared it very plainly in court , upon all which he was found guilty , and being by the statute excluded from benefit of clergy was condemn'd to dye . another young fellow was convicted for stealing a silver tankard valued at five pound ten shillings at stepney , on the thirteeth of may , it was taken with him before he was far gone , viz. in the house of office , being seen by one who told the master of the house to take it out of the room , where he and another companion of his were a drinking ; he now pretended that fearing his associate might be naught , he took the tankard with him to the necessary house , only to secure it , and meant to have presently brought it in , having no thoughts of stealing it , but the jury had little reason to believe him , and therefore brought him in guilty . a woman was indicted for stealing a very great quantity of apparel , and rich linnen , divers pieces of gold , and three l. in silver , to which she resolutely pleaded guilty , and was afterwards tryed for another felony , but upon that acquitted being an old offender , she was for the first condemned , but by a jury of women was found quick with child . there were several indictments brought against a fellow , one for stealing a wheelbarrow and shovel , another for horses harness at maribone , &c. but he pleaded guilty to them , all within benefit , which yet was like to be no benefit to him , for it was said he had been burnt in the hand at kingston , and tyed up at maidston before , however that not appearing , he was now for surety sake burnt foundly . after this succeeded indictments of murder against four several persons . the first , a young fellow , who on the th of june at pancrass , going to drink in a nine-pin-yard with a man that wrought together with him ; the other was trying his skill to tip the four corner-pins , and the prisoner to interrupt him flung his hat at them : whereupon the other person now dead took his hat , and carried it over a bank , and there flung it into water , and stamped on it ; but still in a way of merriment , which the now prisoner thought to answer by taking up one of the pins , and with both hands heaving or tossing it towards him , intending , as he alleadged , and some of the witnesses believed , onely to dash up the water upon him : but the pin unhappily hit him on the left part of the head nigh the ear , and so fatally , that it knockt him down for the present ; and though he got up and went home , seeming pretty well , yet the next day he died . however , there appearing no malice preceding , the prisoner was onely found guilty of manslaughter , and burnt in the hand . the second , was a person charged with killing his wife . the matter of fact was thus : on the of may , about eleven a clock at night a noise , and , as some said , a crying out was heard ; and neighbours coming out , found this woman lying at her own door almost dead ; but no body near her : they carried her into an house , and using means brought her to life , so as to speak , desiring to be put to bed ; but though asked , she did not declare any body had wronged her . however there was a suspition her husband had beaten her ; and some asking him about it , he at first denied it ; but afterwards said , if he did , it was onely with his hands and feet , as one witness alleadged . the woman died about two hours after , and there was no bruise found about her that could be judged mortal : besides , it was proved she had most part of her life been troubled with fits , and especially of late ; and likewise had a little before received some hurt by a cows kicking . upon the whole matter , there appeared no reason for judging him the means of her death ; and therefore he was acquitted . the third , was a carpenters man , who getting up on a strange horse to ride him to water , assoon as he was on his back the horse run away with him , and in fanchurch-street flung down a deaf and dumb lad of about years old , so violently , that he soon after died ; but it being evident that the prisoner could not rule the horse , but had his own life at the same time endangered by a fall , he was likewise discharged . the fourth was more black and fatal , which was of a foot souldier , who on the th of june , marching towards brainford , had it seems drank too much , and lay asleep in a field in chiswick parish , where a countryman was cutting pease , who observing that he had neither sword nor belt , concluded somebody in that condition might have stoln them from him ; and therefore seeing afterwards three other soldiers come along , desired them to wake him , and take him with them , which they , though strangers , were willing to do . they found him lying on his musquet , and that cockt , which one of them uncockt , and with much difficulty awaked him , desiring him very civilly to go along with them , and not lie there , lest he should lose his arms ; withal asking him if his musquet were loaden , who answered swearing , that it was both with powder and ball ; but instead of going with them turned back towards london ; whereupon the person killed , very courteously and with kinde words , took him by the arm and turned him the other way , telling him that was the way they were to march , and he would help him along ; but the prisoner tumbling down , and as they were standing at a small distance , rising up again upon his knees , cocks his musquet again , and presents it at them , and giving fire , shot one of the three souldiers into the right part of the belly , just below the sash , making a wound of two inches broad and ten deep , of which he instantly died without speaking a word , and his comrade and the rest seiz'd the prisoner , who had now nothing to say for himself , save only that he was in drink , but that was an insufficient excuse in law , it appeared he knew his musket , to be charged with a bullet , and that he voluntarily cockt it again , when they out of their care had uncockt it , so that he was necessarily found guilty of murder , and received sentance of death . a notable shop-jilt , was tryed for stealing of yards of taffata ribbon , on the tenth of june , out of a shop in cornhill , the gentlewoman that prosecuted being alone in her shop , and finding her customer so nice and hard to be pleased suspected her , and turning up her scarfe , saw the piece of ribbon under her arm , which thereupon she dropt ; all that she had now to alleadge was , that it was her way , to put her hands under her scarfe , but she had no intention good-woman to steal the ribbon ; however , she is like to be led and drove both at once another way , being sentenced to be whipt at the carts tail , the jury finding it but of the value of ten pence . a country fellow was indicted for having two wives , married to the first about six years agoe in cheshire , to the second about two years ago at dukes place , the last he owned , but denied the first , though he had formerly confest it before a magistrate , yet there being no other proof , for the woman her self could be none , he was acquitted . a souldier was convicted of felony , for departing from his colours without leave , contrary to the form of the statute , it was proved that he had been mustered and received pay , and had absented himself , and torn the lace off his hat , and changed his habit , that he might not be known , for which offence he was condemned . a man and his wife having been lodgers at a butchers , were indicted , together with another woman for stealing of two hundred and ten pound out of one of his rooms , when all the family were at their shop in newgate market , which 't was supposed was done by counterfeiting a key to the door ; there were divers witnesses examined , but none that could directly or expresly fasten it on the prisoners , so that they came off not guilty . the last tryed were a woman for stealing a silver tankard , worth seven pound ten , about three years ago , and a man for stealing another silver tankard , sept. last from an ale-house in st. martins in the fields , who were both found guilty , the man having been burnt in the hand before was set by for transportation , and the woman having been an old offender , received sentance of death . in all there were five condemned , three men , and two women , six burnt in the hand , and five ordered to be whipt , several that were in goal on suspition of robberies on the highway , and burglaries in the country , were ordered to be carried the respective circuits , and in calling over the goal , the maid formerly committed for blasphemy was brought to the bar , and askt several questions , to which she modestly answered , seeming to confess her having taken upon her to be god , and yet declaring that she went to church , and being demanded the reasons why she went thither , replyed , to hear the word of god , so that the court having gravely advised her to repent , askt if she could procure good bail , and who would do so much for her , she said , she did not doubt but some of her masters that she had lived with would be her sureties , having as she declared , lived in london twenty years ; in the mean time till she could provide such bail , she was sent back to prison . finis . a cleare and necessary vindication of the principles and practices of me christopher love, since my tryall before, and condemnation by, the high court of iustice. whereby it is manifested, that a close prison, a long sword, a high court, and a bloody scaffold, have not in the least altered my judgment. whereas also the cruelty of the sentence, the insufficiency of the proofs, and my own innocency, are demonstrated. as also my grounds and reasons of giving in a narrative, and the lawfulness of the matter and titles of my petitions (though to usurpers) manifested and maintained. together with a declaration of my judgement concerning cromwells unlawfull invasion of the kingdom of scotland. written by me christopher love, master of arts, minister of lawrence iury, london; penned by me the eighth of august, fourteen days before my death. love, christopher, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (thomason e _ ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing l thomason e _ estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; :e [ ]) a cleare and necessary vindication of the principles and practices of me christopher love, since my tryall before, and condemnation by, the high court of iustice. whereby it is manifested, that a close prison, a long sword, a high court, and a bloody scaffold, have not in the least altered my judgment. whereas also the cruelty of the sentence, the insufficiency of the proofs, and my own innocency, are demonstrated. as also my grounds and reasons of giving in a narrative, and the lawfulness of the matter and titles of my petitions (though to usurpers) manifested and maintained. together with a declaration of my judgement concerning cromwells unlawfull invasion of the kingdom of scotland. written by me christopher love, master of arts, minister of lawrence iury, london; penned by me the eighth of august, fourteen days before my death. love, christopher, - . [ ], [i.e. ], [ ] p. [s.n.], london : printed in the y[ear ] p. misnumbered . annotation on thomason copy: "december". imperfect: imprint cropped; date of publication suggested by thomason. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng love, christopher, - -- early works to . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . great britain -- history -- commonwealth and protectorate, - -- early works to . a r (thomason e _ ). civilwar no a cleare and necessary vindication of the principles and practices of me christopher love, since my tryall before, and condemnation by, the love, christopher d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a cleare and necessary vindication of the principles and practices of me christopher love , since my tryall before , and condemnation by , the high court of iustice , whereby it is manifested , that a close prison , a long sword , a high court , and a bloody scaffold , have not in the least altered my judgment . whereas also the cruelty of the sentence , the insufficiency of the proofs , and my own innocency , are demonstrated . as also my grounds and reasons of giving in a narrative , and the lawfulness of the matter and titles of my petitions ( though to usurpers ) manifested and maintained . together with a declaration of my judgement concerning cromwells unlawfull invasion of the kingdom of scotland . written by me christopher love , master of arts , minister of lawrence iury , london ; penned by me the eighth of august , fourteen days before my death . jeremiah . , . as for me , behold i am in your hands , do with me as seemeth good and meet unto you , but know ye for certain , that if ye put me to death , ye shall surely bring innocent blood upon your selves , and upon this city , and upon the inhabitants thereof , &c. london printed in the 〈…〉 to the reverend fathers and brethren , the ministers in and about the city of london , subscribers of the petitions for my reprieve and ●ardon . reverend sirs , it is no little comfort to me , that when men cast me out of the world , that god doth not cast me out of your hearts , ( which would have been more bitter than death unto me ) how much am i bound to blesse god , and thank you , that you should intercede should not dye , when so many sonnes of violence think me not worthy to live ? though your mediation for my life should not succeed , yet herein i should rejoyce , if your meeting together lay a foundation of love and union among your selves , though not of advantage unto me . it hath been no little grief of heart to me to consider , that whiles the prelates contend●d for vniformity , thinking to have the coat of christ without rent , and the separatists for purity , thinking to have it without spot , by their contentions they have left the church this coat of christ full of both . i know it is your work and wisedome to labour for the things that make for peace in the churches of the saints . as for a state-peace , or state-union , that 's more proper for statesmen ; i should not desire to live to that day , to see the ministers of london unite upon a state interest to maintain the present power ; this were to say a confederacy with them that say a confederacy ; this were rather a combination , than a vnion . all that i shall say touching the men in present power , they have gotten power into their hands by policy , exercise it by cruelty , and they will lose it with ignominy . as it was said of boniface , he entred the popedome like a fox , reigned like a lyon , but dyed like a dog : reverend fathers and brethren , as you have not bin ashamed of my chain , so , i beseech you , wax more confident by my bonds , and be much more bold to preach the word without fear . god hath not promised to preserve this or that kinde of government in the states and kingdomes of this world , but he hath promised to preserve a ministry in his church , and loe he will be with you to the end of the world . i have no more to say , but to take my last farewell of you all , for i am ready to be offered up , and the time of my departure is at hand ; i see men thirst after my blood , though you long after my life , oh ! that my blood could soder the differences , and my dead body fill up the breaches that are among the godly , that they might walk together in truth and love , in the fellowship of the gospell ; this is the prayer of your dying , yet comforted servant , who is not worthy to have a name among you , therefore is cut off from the land of the living , christopher love . from the tower of london , aug. . . i may say as austin did , though a good conscience be sufficient for my self , yet a good name is necessary for others ; a good name is as precious oyntment , yet there will not be wanting many flying reports to corrupt it ; many are the obloquies and reproaches which by the sonnes of slander are cast upon me , they would faine have my name to be buried and rot above ground , before my friends can bury my body under it , yet herein is my comfort , there will be a resurrection of names as well as of bodies at the last day ; i am assured that god will not only wipe off all tears from mine eyes , but all reproaches from my name also ; i am , as saith the apostle , counted a deceiver , yet true ; as an apostate , yet firm to my first principles . there are two things at which offence is taken , first my petitioning for my life to the parliament ( so called ; ) secondly , my giving in a narrative of the whole matter ; to both which i shall give full satisfaction . about my petitioning , a double offence is taken , first at the titles of my petitions ; secondly at the matter of them . i shall speak briefly to both , to take away any stumbling block out of the way of any . touching the titles of my four petitions they run in this forme . to the supreme authority , the parliament of the common-wealth of england . although i am far from going about to justifie their right to this title to whom i give it , yet i shall justifie the lawfulnesse of my practice in giving them this title which they assume to themselves , especially in a case of life as mine is : for in triviall matters i had rather lose my own right which belongs to me , than give them this title which belongs not to them . the reasons which sway with me why i gave them this title ( though i am not satisfied they have a right to it ) are these . . they would not receive my petitions without giving them their assumed titles ; yea to my knowledge they have rejected petitions which have not had these titles . . i am upon sure and clear grounds perswaded , that giving to men titles they assume to themselves , is not a reall owning that they have a right to those titles . titular and reall are usually distinguished ; by giving them the title of supreme authority , and parliament , i do acknowledge them a titular authority , and a titular parliament , but by ingaging to them ( which i have never done , and i hope shall never do ) i do acknowledge them a reall authority , and a reall parliament : that i may further evince the truth of this second reason , viz. that giving of titles to men they assume to themselves , is not a reall owning that they have a reall right to those titles , i shall give sundry instances in scripture to make it good ; hushai did call absalom , that notorious usurper , king , saying , god save the king , god save the ki●g , ( an expression the people gave him ) yet hushai knew that david only was ( even then ) the lawfull king of israel set over him by god , and absalom only an intruder , and made king by the tumults of the people , yea david himself did bid hushai call absalom ( that usurper ) king. sam. . . say to absalom , i will be thy servant o king . yea further david himself did call absalom king , sam. . . david said to hushai , returne to thy place , and abide with the king ( that is with absalom ) yet he knew himselfe to be the lawfull king , and did not acknowledge that his sonne absalom had any right to the kingdom , though he did give him the title of a king . so athaliahs usurping is called by the spirit of god reigning , yet the spirit of god ownes not her right to reigne , but approved of the killing of her , and the setting up ieh●ash the true and lawfull heire in her room . yea christ himself called the devill the prince of this world , iohn . . and . and . yet is it imaginable that christ thought this title of right belonged to the divell ? certainely no , musculus on iohn . . well observes , non est i●le ( viz. satan ) princeps mundi legitimus , sed per rapinam . paul called the devills principalities and power , eph. . . yet none will be so shamelesse as to say , that paul thought this their rule , dominion , and power , of right belonged to them , but is meerly usurped and intruded into . see annot. on the bible on ephes. . . . titles are not alwaies approbative , but distinctive ; my meaning is , that giving of titles to persons or things argues not ones approving of a just right to those titles , but seems meerly to distinguish those persons or things from others that are called by other names or titles ; as i call them at whitehall a councell of state , to distinguish them from a councell of warre , i call those at westminster the parliament of the common-wealth , to distinguish them from the lords and commons assembled in parliament . . titles are giving to things or persons sometimes meerly by allusion , not approbation , as in scripture phrase sin is said to reigne , and the devils are said to rule , not that either the one or the other hath an approved right to rule over man , as a lawfull prince hath to rule over his subjects , but they are said to reign or rule by way of allusion to the reign of princes in their dominions . . titles may be given without sin to persons or things , though of right they belong not to them , where they are generally received or mentioned by such titles by the people where i live . about names and titles much indulgence is to be given to the common usages and customes of the people ; i may call things or persons by such names or titles as i know belongs not of right unto them , because they are ordinarily knowne , and generally received by such names and titles . i could give manifold instances out of scripture to prove this ; david called abs●lom king , not that he thought him so of right , but because he was commonly known and generally received by that title among the people . so herod was called by the evangelist king of the jews , so did the jews generally call him by that title , yet none but that sect or sort of people called the herodians did owne it as herods right to be the king of the iews , who were so called because they pleaded for herod to be the lawfull king of the iews , which the pharises and others withstood , because he was not one of the iewish nation , as he ought to be . deut . . yet all the iews called herod king , though they did not acknowledge him to be their lawfull king ; t is manifest giving of titles are but titular acknowledgments and no more . . if names may without sin be given to places and things ( which belong not to them ) i see no reason why they may not be given to persons . there are names and titles given to many places both upon superstitious and idolatrous grounds , yet may without sin be used ( i speak not of the first imposers ) when those places are so called and commonly knowne by such names . luke that writ the acts of the apostles , calls a place in athens , mars-hill ( as it was commonly called ) and this he might do without sin , though this name was originally imposed on that place in honour of mars , yet he calls the place as it was commonly called , though called so upon an idolatrous ground . acts . . so for t●ings also we may without sin call them by those names which others give them , though they may deal superstitiously or sinfully in the first imposition of such names . thus paul mentions a ship of alexandria whose signe was cast●r and pollux , names originally imposed by the gentiles , upon an idolatrous ground , yet being generally received , paul calls the ship after this name . . it was a matter of absolute necessity ( as to my life ) for me to petition them , i being condemned to dye ; t is true for a trivial , or ordinary occasion i should never petition them , but in an extraordinary case i might lawfully do it ; david in a case of extreme necessity did eat the shew-bread , which in an ordinary case he might not do . t is true indeed , cato would not petition caesar for his life , he had rather dye than petition , but that i conceive was rather out of some animosity or height of spirit , or petty discontent , than out of a rectified judgment ; for my part i am fully satisfied that i have not sinned in giving them their assumed titles ; names and titles do not determine rights , conveniunt rebus nemina saepe suis , it is true sometimes , but not alwayes : . titles men assume to themselves , or are generally given by others , may be given them by me without sin , or without owning a right to those titles ; this i may make appear by sundry late instances ; henry the eighth had this title given him , defender of the faith , yet he had no right to this title ; for he defended only the popish religion ; he opposed the faith rather than defended the faith , and the true reason why the pope gave him this title defender of the faith , was because he opposed the doctrine of luther , and wrote against him ; yet none scrupled to call him and the succeeding kings of england the defenders of the faith . so the king of spaine is called the catholick king , yet he hath no true right to this title , for he is not a catholick or universall monarch , yet our new state have lately sent to the king of spaine under this title , the catholick king ; so the king of france is call'd the most christian king ; so the duke of bavaria having by arms ejected the palsgrave writes himselfe prince elector palatine of the rhine , so the king of poland takes this title to himselfe king of sweden , yet hath no right to that kingdom ; yet none that ever i heard of scrupled to give these titles to them , considering that titles do not determine rights , and considering also , that no addresses to them will be received by them , unlesse the titles they assume to themselves be given them by those who make applications to them . having thus spoken to justifie the lawfulnesse of the titles of my petitions , i come now to justifie the matter of my petitions . before i speak to the matter of my petitions positively , i shall in a word declare negatively what was not the matter of my petitions , as , . i did not promise to act any thing for the promoting and maintaining this present government , that had been equivalent to taking the engagement . . i did not promise to joyne with the present power to oppose the scotish army though i was often sollicited to it . . i did not declare that for which i was condemned was a sin against god , i am of the sam● mind i was when at the high court after i had my sentence , i said , though they condemned me , yet god and my owne conscience did not condemne me , they condemned me for treason , yet my conscience did not tell me that it was a sinne against god which they counted treason . i confessed it was a transgression of their lawes , but no transgression of any command of god . in my first petition i have these words , that i lay my mouth in the dust , that there may be hope that the lord will pardon his manifold iniquities , and that your honours will passe by his offences contrary to your lawes . in my second petition i have these words , through unadvisednesse and weaknesse he is fallen under your sad and heavy displeasure , and hath offended against the lawes of this common-wealth . in my third there is no mention of sinne at all . in my fourth petition there is this passage , the consideration whereof melteth the heart of your petitioner , and makes him ( after a more narrow search of his heart and wayes ) more deeply sensible than ever of his sinne against god , and more sorrowfull for his crimes and offences against the parliament in his late and great miscarriages . in all which passages i have not renounced the righteousnesse of the cause for which i suffer , nor acknowledged the thing it selfe to be sinfull , which i still maintaine as justifiable , and can say with the apostle , happy is he that condemneth not himselfe in the thing which he alloweth . . i did not in my petition justifie the acts upon which i was condemned to be righteous ; nor the court to be legall : i do publickly protest against the former to be most unrighteous , unmercifull , and severe lawes , as draco's written in blood ; and have before the high court protested against the latter , that they were not a leagall court of judicature to judge me for my life , therefore i did earnestly plead it was my birthright to have a jury , my duty to demand it , though their pleasure to deny it . . i did not absolutely justifie the sentence of the high court , i had rather patiently undergoe the sentence than absolutely to justifie it ; i must confesse through advice of lawyers , and earnest solicitatious of friends , i did in my last petition , after a sort , and in some sence say the sentence was just ( in what sence i shall by and by shew ) my words are these , he humbly acknowledgeth he hath so highly violated the lawes of the commonwealth , as that thereby he hath rendred himselfe guilty of the sentence of death , justly past upon him by the high court of iustice . in which words , first , i do not justifie their lawes , nor , secondly , the legality of the court , thirdly , nor the sufficiency of the testimony of the witnesses ; there did not any two witnesses evidence any one fact against me that was treason by their new acts , and that some members of the high court have confest unto me . having spoken negatively what was not the matter of my petitions , i now come to speake positively what was the matter of my petitions , wherein i have said or done nothing contrary to conscience , or my former principles . the matter of my petitions containes three parts , first , the narratory part , secondly , the promissory part , thirdly the petitionary part ; at the last none can be offended , ( unlesse such as thirsted after my blood ) in that i did but begge a grant of my life , that i might bee rescued from going downe into the grave . none can justly blame mee for begging my life from any who have my life in the power of their hands ; i neede not speak to that . but the two former parts of my petitions ( viz. the narratory and promissory parts ) require more to be spoken concerning them . as touching the narratory part , i shall begin with the first petition , the narratory part runs thus . most humbly sheweth , your petitioner having received the sentence of death by the high court of justice , is preparing himself in all humility , and serious submission to drink that bitter cup , the terrour whereof , though much abated through the pardoning mercies of god , in the blood of sprinkling , yet your petitioner , being brought down to the dust of death , desires to see the righteous lord in this sentence ; acknowledging it to be just with the the most high to cut him off , both in the midst of his dayes , and the midst of his ministry ; but desires to be deeply humbled under the mighty hand of god , lying low before the lord and you , putting his mouth in the dust , that there may be hope that the lord will pardon his manifold iniquities , and that your honours would passe by his offences , done contrary to your laws , which as he formerly did , so still doth confesse renders him faulty , for which he is unfeignedly sorry ; your petitioner goeth not about to plead excuse , but with an humble submission prostrates himself at your feet , acknowledging he hath offended against the acts of this commonwealth , and thereby is fallen under your sore displeasure , of which he is very deeply sensible and sorrowfull also . this is all the narratory part , which i hope offends no sober minde , nor christian ear , it offends some i have said no more , it offends none ( i hope ) that i have said so much . i desire to give you a few things to observe out of these words in my first petition . . i said , i desire to see the righteous lord in this sentence . i doe acknowledge god to be righteous ( what ever men are ) in all that is brought upon me , he is righteous should a worse sentence than death passe upon me . . i do acknowledge it to be just with the most high to cut me off , both in the midst of my dayes , and in the midst of my ministery . i doe not say it is just with men , they shall answer for what they have done ; but it is just with god , he is just in mens injustice , and righteous in mens unrighteousnesse . . i say in my petition , that i desire to be deeply humbled under the mighty hand of god , lying low before the lord and you , putting his mouth in the dust , if there may be hope that god will pardon his manifold iniquities , and your honours passe by his offence done contrary to your laws , which as formerly did , so i doe still confesse renders me faulty , for which i am unfeignedly sorry . in which words i desire the reader to observe i doe onely in the generall beg pardon for my manifold iniquities , without restraining it to this particular fact for which i am condemned . i am assured that what they count sin is duty , and what they judge treason is loyalty . secondly , when i beg their honours to passe by my offences done contrary to their laws , i do not intend it as if my offending against their laws made me a transgressor against gods lawes ; no they are transgressors against gods law for making such laws , not i for breaking them . thirdly , i used this passage [ against your lawes ] on purpose to distinguish their new lawes from the ancient and fundamentall lawes of this nation . fourthly , when i say i am by their laws rendered faulty , i doe not , nor never did intend it as to god , but if i respect their laws singly i am faulty by them , for i confesse i have broken them ; yet as to god they are faulty in making them , not i in breaking them . fifthly , when i say i am unfeignedly sorry that i have done it contrary to their laws , my meaning is , because of the penalty their lawes inflict , viz. imprisonment and death , for this i am sorry ; as for gods law i desire to grieve more for the offence than the punishment , but as for their laws i am not bound to doe so . fourthly , when i say i prostrate my selfe at your feet , acknowledging i have offended against the acts of this commonwealth , and thereby am fallen under your sore displeasure , of which i am very deeply sensible and sorrowfull also , i desire the reader to observe , . i call their laws the acts of this common-wealth , to distinguish them from acts of parliament . . by these words you may understand my intent in the foregoing clause , where i said i was sorry for my offences done contrary to their laws , these words explain those , that my sorrow is that i have fallen under their sore displeasure ( which i feel by imprisonment and sentence of death ) rather than transgressing their acts ; i have more cause of grief that their laws are not abolished , than that they are broken . this is all i have to say about the narratory part of the first petition , the narratory of my second petition is as followeth : most humbly sheweth , that your petitioner doth with all thankefulnesse acknowledge it a singular providence of god , and speciall favour of the parliament , that a dore of hope is yet open , and opportunity once more offered to prostrate himself at your feet for a grant of his life , which if you vouchsafe , he shall accept as an act of great grace and mercy . it is no little grief of heart to your petitioner , that through unadvisednesse and weaknesse he is fallen under your sad and heavy displeasure , and hath offended against the lawes of this commonwealth , for which he is unfeignedly sorrowfull ; and now by the sentence of the high court ( to which he submits with all christian meeknesse and humble acknowledgement of gods ●and therein ) is in inevitable and suddon danger to lose his life , without your mercifull interposition . and whereas there is surmise of a plot continued against the peace and welfare of this common-wealth , he doth protest in the presence of god , the searcher of all hearts , that he knoweth of no plot or designe against the present government , nor it privy in the least to any preparations or intendments towards any intestine insurrections , or forreign invasions , or to any correspondency now held with any in , or of the scotish nation , or any other whatsoever . he is not ignorant how much malignants will triumph at his death , nor is he without naturall affections to his dear wife and children , nor without real● desires of life to doe god and his countrey service , which are powerfull perswasives to him to doe what ever he can , without wounding his conscience . in which words i desire the reader to take notice , . that by using the word parliament , i doe not own them as a reall , but as a titular parliament . . when i mention unadvisednesse and weaknesse , i understand it in the manner of management of such a businesse , that is , was without that caution and care that became a businesse of such a nature . it was my unadvisednesse and weaknesse , i confesse , that i ever met with such persons who were some of them so false , others so fearfull , most of them so undiscreeet , yea it was my unadvisednesse to meet with so many of them . . when i say i am unfeignedly sorrowfull , it is not singly for offending against their laws , but conjunctly , because i am fallen under their sad and heavy displeasure , and offended against their lawes . this explains a like clause in my first petition , it implies i am sorrowfull for the penalty their lawes inflict ( viz. imprisonment and death ) for therein i finde the sad effect of their heavy displeasure , so that my sorrow is rather that i am a sufferer by their cruell laws , than that i am a breaker of them ; indeed as to the laws of god , and the unquestionable lawes of this nation , a man ought to be more sensible that he is a transgressor , than that he is a sufferer : but a man is not bound to be so for transgressing their treasonable lawes . . take notice , i call their new lawes the lawes of this commonwealth , to distinguish them from the old lawes of this kingdome , which i will keep , not only for fear , but for conscience sake , but as for their laws a man may forbear to break them , out of fear , or in prudence , but not for conscience sake . . when i speak to the sentence of the court , take notice i onely say , that i submit to the sentence of the high court with all christian meeknesse , and humble acknowledgment of gods hand therein . take notice i doe here submit to the sentence , not justifie it ; and i doe acknowledge therein god to be righteous ; for he is righteous in the unrighteousness of men . i doe acknowledge gods hand in this sentence to be just , though mans hand to be cruell . as for other passages in the narratory part there is nothing questionable , therefore i shall speak no more to it . the narratory part of my third petition is as followeth . most humbly sheweth , that whereas there are but a few hours between your petitioner and death , he is humbly bold , before he breath out his soul to god , to breath out his request to the parliament , by making his last addresse to you , humbly acknowledging he hath incurred your high displeasure , of which he is deeply sensible , and violated the lawes of this commonwealth , for which he is unfeignedly sorrowfull , and now also submits to the sentence of the high-court . i desire the reader to observe , that this third petition for the narratory part of it , is but a repetition of what was in the two former petitions , therefore what i have said to the former , will suffice for this also . the naratory part of my fourth petition is as followeth . sheweth , that your petitioner doth humbly adore the wonderfull goodnesse of god , & most thankfully acknowledge the great mercy of the parliament , for so seasonable and acceptable an act of grace , to such an offending suppliant , that when there was but a step between him and death , the number of his dayes being accomplished , and he almost cut off from the land of the living , then you mercifully interposed , and gave him his life for a moneth longer , which was to him as a resurrection from the dead ; the consideration whereof , melteth the heart of your petitioner , and makes him , after a more narrow search into his heart and wayes , more deeply sensible than ever of his sinne against god , and more sorrowfull for his high crimes and offences against the parliament , in his late and great miscarriages . he humbly acknowledgeth he hath so highly violated the laws of this commonwealth , as that thereby he hath rendred himself guilty of the sentence of death , justly past upon him by the high court of justice . he doth also herewith humbly offer to your honours a free and full narrative under his hand of the whole designe to the best of his remembrance , which he leaveth to your grave wisdomes and favourable interpretations . this would require a more large vindication than the former . wherefore i shall desire the reader to take notice of these following particulars . . i doe in the same sence call them a parliament in this petition as i did in the former ; i know that the giving them the name parliament ( without engaging to them ) is but a titular , not a reall acknowledgement , yea in the titles of my petitions i call them the parliament of the commonwealth , i do not call them ( nor doe i beleeve them to be ) the kingdomes parliament . i have observed the name parliament hath bin three different wayes applied : the juncto of oxford was called a parliament , but that was only the kings parliament : the members now sitting at westminster are called a parliament also , but they are the parliament of that faction , who stand for the government of a commonwealth , in opposition to the kingdomes government : the lords and commons assembled at westminster were called a parliament , and they only were and are the kingdomes parliament , to preserve whose privileges the people of this nation are under so many oaths and covenants . i call them the parliament of the commonwealth , to distinguish them from the kingdomes parliament . . in saying i am an offending suppliant , my meaning is only that i have offended them whose new laws i confesse i have broken . . in saying , the consideration whereof ( that is , that my life is given me for a moneth longer , which is as a resurrection from the dead ) melteth my heart i doe confesse , sence of their kindnesse doth more gaine upon me than the feare of death ; what i writ to mr. scot , i still affirm , their displeasure might have broken my bo●es , but their mercy hath broken my heart . i confesse it hath done so : this favour hath much won my heart towards them in love and thankfulness , as they are gentlemen ( who had my life in their hands ) but not so as to comply with them in a state-interest , to promote and maintain their present government . . in saying i am more deeply sensible , than ever , of my sin against god , i blesse god i am so , my imprisonment , and the sentence of death past upon me , hath made me to search more narrowly into my heart and wayes , and caused me to see my sinfulnesse , unserviceablenesse , and unprofitablenesse in the lords vineyard , for which he may justly cut me off as a withered branch , and lay me aside as a uselesse vessell , wherein he will take no pleasure . it would be a sottish stupidity in me , should not all these sharp and bitter afflictions make me more sensible of my sin against god ; nor dare i excuse my self to be withont sin in my late actings , that is , in the manner of management thereof , being too open and indiscreet , and too credulous of men ; these , and other infirmities did cleave to these actings , as there doth failings cleave to the works of my calling , and to all my duties , yet i have never thought the facts i have done in their own nature to be sinfull , but lawfull . i cannot conceive it to be a sin against god , to desire in my prayers to god as a private man , that there might be an agreement between the king and the scots , upon the interest of religion , and terms of the covenant , or to be present when letters were read , which were either sent from or to the honest covenanting party in scotland ; nor can i believe it to be a sin to move for money for the relief of major generall massey , ( who had been so usefull for , and instrumentall in the good of this nation ) and that not for a military use ( that was disclaimed by me ) but namely for a supply of his personall necessities . i know no sin in this , yet this is all that was proved against me , for which i am condemned to dye . . when i say i am sorrowfull for my high crimes and offences against the parliament in my late and great miscarriages . i desire three things may be taken notice of , . the reason why i call my late actings high crimes and offences against the parliament , because they were the very words of my charge . i was charged with high treason , and other high crimes and offences . to the first i still pleaded not guilty , the second i confest before the high-court , that i was guilty of those things which their laws counted high crimes and offences , in concealing what my accusers had done . secondly , i doe in these words mention the object of these high crimes and offences , not against god , but against the parliament ( so called for distinctions sake ) thirdly , i call my late actings great miscarriages ( not sins ) because i did miscarry as to the manner of managemement , and as to the desired issue and event , that there might be a healing of breaches , and composing of differences among the godly in both the nations . . in saying i have highly violated the lawes of this common-wealth , i call them thus to distinguish them from the old and fundamentall lawes of this kingdom● , which i have not broken in any thing that i have done . . in saying i have by the high violation of their lawes rendred my selfe guilty of the sentence of death justly past upon me by the high court of iustice , i would be rightly understood in these words , that they might not be wrested beyond , or contrary , to my intendment ; that you may fully apprehend what i ayme at in this expression , i desire you would take notice of a few particulars . . i do not say i am proved to be guilty of the sentence of death , but i have rendred my selfe guilty , &c. that is , though they have not proved , yet i confesse it , i have done those things ( contrary to their late acts ) which are punishable with death by their cruell lawes ; so that if the reader marke my words , i do not place my guiltinesse of the sentence of death upon the things proved against me , but upon the things done by me . and when i say the sentence of death is justly past upon me by the high court of iustice , i do not place the justice of the sentence on the clearnesse or sufficiency of the proof , ( for there was no treasonable fact ( as they call it ) proved against me by two witnesses ) but upon my violation of their lawes ; that is , i had done those things which are punishable ( by their bloody lawes ) with death ; i did violate their lawes , and upon my violation of their lawes , not upon the clearnesse of the evidence , do i acknowledge the sentence of death to be justly past upon , by their bloody and tyrannicall lawe ; : for although eight witnesses came in against me , yet they were very deficient in their evidence , sometimes they contradicted one another , they did not agree among themselves ; sometimes a witnesse contradicted himselfe ; none of the witnesses proved , that ever i received letter , that ever i writ letter , that ever i collected , gave or lent one peny of money , yet i am condemned to dye ; i confesse i did write two letters , and did give a small summe of money , ( not upon any military accompt ) both which facts are adjudged treason by their new acts , in which regard i do acknowledge the sentence of death is justly past upon me , that this was the sence that i intended , many friends who were with me in the tower can beare witnesse . thirdly , in a sence ( though a rigid and forced sence ) i must confesse , the sentence may be said to be just , for although there was no single personall fact proved against me which made me guilty of treason ; yet my facts being ( they say ) of a continued time , and complicated nature , i cannot deny , but upon the whole matter , they have by rigid collections , and strained consequences , hookt me within the generall clause of the act of august the second . to abett , countenance , or incourage the scotish nation , or the forces adhering to them , which is declared to be treason . there was no act but this could reach me , and no particular clause in this act but these generall words of abetting , countenancing , or incouraging the scotish nation , or the forces adhering to them , for which i was condemned . i do not deny but i might in a sort be brought under some of these generall words , if the members of the high court would put a harsh and rigid interpretation ( as they have done ) upon what was proved against me ; they might have put a more candid and faire interpretation upon what was proved against me ; if they had not been led more by interest than by conscience , they might have saved their oathes and my life too ; i believe some of them said in their consciences at least , we find no cause of death in this man , but others mighty say , as the iewes to pilate , you are no friends to caesar , you are no friends to the state , if you condemne not this man to dye . others of them haply may through blindnesse and partiality be so bound up in their consciences , as herod was , that he must cut off iohn baptist's head for his oath sake ; so , forsooth , because they had sworne to execute justice upon all that came before them , according to those acts , they by forced inferences , and tortured collections , bringing me under one clause of the act of august . . thought they were bound by their oathes to condemn me , so to avoid the appearance of perjury they commit murther , as herod did in cutting off iohn baptist's head , pretending that he should break his oath if iohn baptist did not lose his head . fourthly , though i should grant the sentence to be just according to their rigid inferences , and strained and forced collections , yet i do not by such ( no nor yet by any ) acknowledgment of mine , absolutely justifie the sentence . to clear this in a few words , take notice , a sentence may be said to be just in a two-fold sence , or consideration . first , in an absolute sence . secondly , in a respective or relative sence and consideration . f●rst , a sentence is then said to be just in an absolute sence in the generall , when for the substance of it , it is such that no injustice can be charged upon , that is , when it hath all those requisites , and ingredients , that are required to , and are necessary for , the making up such a sentence , and they are chiefly these three . first , that the law or lawes which are proceeded by , be for the matter and substance of them consonant and agreeable , at least unto generall rules of scripture . secondly , that the ministers of those lawes be such who are lawfully designed and deputed to the management and exercise of them . and thirdly , that in their sentence they walke by , and proceed according to the substantiall rules and directions given them in those lawes ; and where these three things concurre to a sentence , it may be said to be just in an absolute consideration , and when it misseth it in any of these , it cannot truly and rightly bear the domination of such a sentence ; now that the sentence past upon me , was a just sentence in this absolute consideration , i have not , and i hope never shall , acknowledge . but then secondly , a sentence may be said to be just in a respective or relative consideration ; that is , as it hath reference to , and respects those lawes which are the rise and foundation of it : now , though a sentence should misse it in the two first respects of a sentence absolutely just , that is , though the lawes proceeded by should be vitious for the matter of them , and the ministers of them vsurpers , that have no right nor title to the exercise , either of those , or any other laws , yet if their proceedings be such , as that the sentence being laid to the line , and weighed in the ballance of those lawes , shall be found in any sence ( yea , though a strained and forced sence ) to be a sentence according to , and that holds proportion with those laws , or any other clause or clauses of them , in this sence , and so far , the sentence may be said to be just , just not simply and absolutely , but only in reference and relation to those lawes . and when i acknowledge the sentence to be just , i understand it in this sence , viz. according to their rigid and forced inferences from their unjust and cruell lawes . object . if it be demanded , what was the reason that i refused formerly to mention a word about the justice of the sentence in any sence , yet afterwards do it ? sol. i shall give you a brief and ( i hope ) satisfactory account to both parts of this question ; i shall first give you the reasons why i formerly refused to speake a word about the justice of the sentence , then give you reasons why i did speak something to it in my last petition . the reasons why i formerly refused to mention a word ( in my three first petitions ) about the justice of the sentence , are these . . lest i should harden the hearts of my unjust judges ; they themselves confest mine was as intricate and dubitable , a case as ever came before them , to finde by what act , and by what clause in that act i was found guilty , therefore they spent more time about my tryall , than about any mans since their high-court was established . i refused therefore to say that was justice , which god will say is murder in the great day of their account , and which themselves could hardly say was just , untill by the subtill insinuations , and rigid inferences and collections of the lawyers ( of that court ) they hook't me within the compasse of those generall words , to abett , countenance , or encourage . . lest i should injure my godly brethren who should be afterwards tryed . the most they proved against me by two witnesses , was prefence at the hearing of letters read : now i thought with my selfe , should i confesse the sentence just , i should pre-judge my brethren , and in effect , say the sentence would be just against them , as well as against me ; upon this ground i refused to say the sentence was just ; but this reason is of no force now , for all my brethren in the tower , who were engaged in the same businesse , they have either confest , or intend to confesse against themselves . . i could not be informed ( upon discourse with divers of the members of the high-court ) what personall fact of mine ( proved against me ) made me guilty of treason by any publique act of theirs , nor could i understand by any of them , if they did proceed secundum allegata , & probata , how they found me guilty of treason ; all the refuge they had to run to , was this , that i was an abetter , countenancer or encourager of the scotish nation , and forces adhering to them ; and upon that clause they sentenced me . now , when i saw some of my judges could give me no more satisfactory reasons of their sentence , it made me the more to doubt of the justice of the sentence , even according to their own lawes ; upon these grounds i forbore to speak of the justice of the sentence : in mentioning the justice of the sentence , i did not use lightnesse , or shew ficklenesse , but what i did it was upon solemn and serious advice and consideration . the reasons why i did say the sentence of death was justly past upon me , are these . . because i knew i had done those things which their cruell lawes punish with death , as i did write a letter to massey , and gave a small sum of money to him , both which are punished with death ; yet they proved neither of these ; so that i place the justice of the sentence , not upon the sufficiency of the proof , but upon my violation of their bloody lawes . . i had not so much hopes , that saying in any sence the sentence was just would formerly so much advantage me as now i have , therefore would not give so likely an offence for so unlikely and uncertain an advantage . . i considered with my self , that the sentence of the court ( whether just or unjust as to my acknowledgment ) was but a nice controversie in law , not a clear case of conscience in divinity . i did not refuse to say the sentence was in any sence just , as if i thought it were a sin in its own nature to say that by their laws the sentence was just , i never loaded my conscience with that , but i forbore it out of christian prudence ; i would not harden my judges , nor insnare my brethren . . the last reason why i did say the sentence was just , is this , because my judges did upon the evidence bring me under these generall and comprehensive words , to abett , countenance , and encourage the scotish nation . these words are of such a latitude , that they might bring me under them by forced inferences , strained consequences , and rigid interpretations ; so that in this sence ( this rigid sence ) the sentence may be said to be just . yet for all this that hath been said , my judges have great cause to be troubled , as . for sitting in so arbitrary , illegall , and tyrannicall a court . . that they judged me upon such incompetent , insufficient , and uncertain evidence . . that they judged me to dye by such an act , they indeed are to be judged as traytors who made the act , not i who broke it . . for being such vassalls to those who commissionate them , most of them having offices , or places of profit from the state , are in fee with the state , and for that very reason are not competent persons to be judges of matters of fact against any mans life ; indeed the iudges of the land are onely judges of matters of law , and may be in fee with the state , may receive a yearly revenue , but the jury who judge of matters of fact , ought not to be in fee with the state ; therefore by law the prisoner at the bar , may lawfully except against if he see just cause , either in that , or any other regard . . they have great cause to be troubled , that when they could not prove one treasonable fact against me by their new laws , either that i ever writ letter , or received or sent letter , or gave one penny of money , when , i say , they could prove neither of these against me , that they judge me to dye upon such a quirk in the act , and by such harsh interpretations force my actings to come under those generall words , abetting , countenancing and encouraging , i am bold to say , that treason was never made by such generall words , as abetting , countenancing and encouraging , in any state or kingdom in the world , but in ours by our commonwealth-men ; and some of my iudges have confest , there was never such generall words found in any law to make a man guilty of treason : ignorant men talk of the norman slavery , but there is no such slavery in the world as this is , for a man to dye upon such words as these ; for ought i know speaking well of a scotch man may be judged abetting , and looking lovingly on a scotch man may be judged conntenancing , and speaking comfortably to a scotch man may be judged encouraging ; so that if a man speak well of , or look lovingly on , or speak comfortably to any of the scotish nation , he may , for ought i know , be brought under this unmercifull and cruell act as well as i . though i am not the first sentenced to death by the flew acts , yet i am the first man in england sentenced to dye by those generall words of abetting , countenancing and encouraging , which are not found in any ancient laws or statutes , and which no iury in england would have condemned me upon , as lawyers have informed me . what will after-ages say of these proceedings , but that this kind of justice is extremity of rigor , and that there is a talent of unrighteousnesse to one dram of justice found in this sentence ? i am very confident , that after my head is off my shoulders , some of my iudges will have terrif●ed & troubled consciences , as herod had after he had cut off john baptist's head , he thought he had seen johns ghost , which was nothing else but meerly the reflections of his naturall conscience for his cruell murder of that innocent man : and i hope and beleeve i shall have more peace of conscience in undergoing the sentence on a block , than they will have for inflicting the sentence when they come to lye upon their death-beds . i pray god lay not my blood to their charge . this is all i have to say touching the narratory part of my petitions . i proceed now to justifie the second part of my petitions , which is the promissory part ; as i have declared nothing that is sinfull in the former , so i have not promised any thing that is sinfull in the latter . before i shall undretake to justifie what i have promised , i shall premise a few particulars . . had i been free , i should have promised them nothing , because i owe them nothing . . i promise them onely negatives , which i may lawfully make to a company of high-way robbers , if they will spare me life , when some of their society would spill my blood . now , that i might satisfie the world in what promises i have made , i shall lay them down in order , as they are in my petitions . in my first petition i did onely promise , that for the remainder of my dayes i would lead a peac●able and quiet life in all godlinesse and honesty , and that in my place and calling i would endeavour the peace and welfare of this common-wealth . the first part of this promise is my duty , as i am a christian , it was the apostles prayer in tim. ● . . therefore ought to be my practice . the second part of this promise is my duty as i am an englishman , to endeavour the peace and welfare of this common-wealth . where by common-wealth i understand not this form of government in opposition to a kingdome , but by common-wealth , i understand the whole body or community of the people of this nation , i shall endeavour their peace and welfare as i am a native of this nation . in my second petition i promised only this , to endeavour in my place and calling the composing of differences among the godly , and preserving spirituall peace and love throughout the churches of the saints , as well as the civill peace and welfare of this common-wealth . and i further promised , neither to plot , contrive , or designe any thing to the hurt of the present government , and , if it be required , to put in further security for performance thereof . in which words i promise four things . . in my place and calling to compose differences among the godly . it would be my sin to widen differences , it is my duty to compose them . i would have christ's coat without rent , as well as without spot . i can truly say for the breaches among the godly i have had sad thoughts of heart , the grief of my heart hath been for the division , and the desire of my soule , for an vnion , and closure of the differences that are amongst us . oh that my body could make up that breach , i would cast it in , or my blood soder the differences , i would let it out with gladnesse , for the attainment of so desired an end . . to preserve spirituall peace and love throughout the churches of the saints . it is my duty not only to endeavour to restore peace and love where it is not , but to preserve it where it is . . to preserve the civill peace and welfare of this common-wealth , which is the same with that promise in the first petition ; by common-wealth i understand , not a form of government , but the whole body , or community of the people of this nation . i promise to seek their civill peace and vnion . i am bound to the two first as i am a christian , and to the latter as i am an englishman . . neither to plot , contrive , or designe any thing to the hurt of the present government , and if it be required , to put in further security for the performance of the same . in which promise i doe not absolutely binde my self to doe nothing against this present government , so as not to pray , or not to preach against their vsurpations and oppressions , but i doe confine my promise to not plotting , contriving or designing the hurt of the present government , that is , that i shall not engage in any plot , contrivement or designe against them who are in present power , and this promise i had resolved to keep , had they given me my life , though i might have opportunity and secrecy to carry on such plot , contrivement , or designe against them . such a negative promise as this , in such a case of extremity as i am now in , i might lawfully make to a company of theeves , when they have their knife at my throat , or their swords at my heart , i may lawfully promise to them , that i will neither plot , contrive , nor design to hurt them , to way-lay them , and take them ; i promise no more to the present power , and this i should make good , and if i might not be believed , i did offer security for the performance hereof ; yet were i at liberty , at my free choice , i should not promise so much unto them , nor would i advise others to engage themselves in the least unto them , yet it would not offend me , if any man in the condition i am in did promise so much , if he would promise no more . in my third petition i promised and offered further security , neither to plot , contrive or designe the subversion of this present government , accounting it as a brand of the highest ingratitude to imploy my life against you , if i shall by an act of grace and favour receive a new life from you . in which words , i beseech the reader to observe , my promise is only negative , i make no positive promise to them of a concurrence with , or acting for this present government ; this is the same promise in terminis with that in the second petition , only there is an additionall clause here , viz. that i account it as a brand of the highest ingratitude , to imploy my life against them , if i should by an act of grace and favour receive a new life from them . i do not say i shall imploy my life for them if i should receive my life from them , that i dare not do , yet i will say i will not imploy my life against them , and this promise i would have kept , had they given me my life , as long as i had lived under their present government . in my fourth petition i promised that i would neither plot , contrive or designe , any thing prejudiciall to the present government , but in my place and calling oppose any malignant designs whatsoever , ( whether in this or the neighbour nations ▪ ) that may tend to the ruine of this common-wealth . and a while after i promised , never to imploy that life against you , i shall receive from you , but bold it my duty to lay out my life for the glory of god , the good of his people , the peace and safety of this commonwealth . i have promised four things in this petition , the lawfullnesse whereof ( as the case stands ) i shall sufficiently evince . first , i promised neither to plot , contrive , or designe any thing prejudjciall to the present government . this is the same , in terminis , with what is promised in my second and third petitions . to vindicate which , i refer my reader to what i said there . secondly , i promised in my place and calling to oppose any malignant designes whatsoever ( whether in this or the neighbour nations ) that may tend to the ruine of this common-wealth . in which words i desire the reader to take notice . first , that i hold my self still bound to oppose malignant designs as much as ever i did , i still retaine as great a dislike of a malignant interest as ever . secondly , when i mention malignant designs , i do not understand the honest scots undertakings , in preserving their king , country , religion and all against the invaders , to be a malignant designe ; farre be it from me i should once imagine it ; but by malignant designs , i mean such which the covenant expresseth , the covenant brandeth them for malignants , incendiaries , and evill instruments , who divide the king from his people , or one of the kingdoms from another ; they are the malignants which i did oppose , and should oppose , who did labour by arms to force the two houses of parliament , this the cavaleers would have done but could not , but this the army hath done . thirdly , i do not say i shall oppose all designs that may tend to the ruine of the government of the common-wealth , but that may tend to the ruine of the common-wealth , that is , to the ruine of the body of the people of this nation . thirdly , i promised never to implo● that life against you i should receive from you . this is the same , in termin●s , with that in my third petition ; could they give me a thousand lives , i would not imploy one for them , yet if they had given me my life , i would not imploy that life against them . fourthly , i promised to lay out my selfe for the glory of god , the good of his people , the peace and safety of this common-wealth . that is not the government of this common-wealth , but of the community or whole body of the people ; i thinke there is none that will question the lawfullnesse of this promise . thus you have seen to a tittle both the narratory and promissory part of all my petitions , wherein i have declared , and promised , nothing that will strengthen this government , that doth contradict my principles , wound my conscience , or justly offend my godly brethren . i promise nothing in a way of active concurrence or complyance with their state government , neither to preach or pray for them , fight or act for them in the least . thus i have justified the lawfullnesse of the titles of my petitions , &c. also of the matter of them , both of the narratory , promissory , and petitionary part of them . i now begin to justifie my practice , in giving in a narrative of the whole transaction . this i did not out of constraint , but voluntarily . in my narrative offence is taken at two things . first , that i accuse my selfe . secondly , that i accuse others , yet at first i did refuse to doe either . to this i shall give a clear and satisfactory answer , to justifie what i have done . it is true , before i was condemned to dye i deemed it against the law of nature to accuse my selfe , and against the law of love to accuse my brother , therefore then would do neither . and i am still of this judgment , before a man sees his accusers face to face , and is convicted , i would not have a man confesse a word in a case of that nature as mine is ; but as the case stands with me , being a condemned man , i conceive it is not against the law of nature to confesse against my selfe , nor against the law of love to confesse against my brethren , who are partakers with me in this businesse ; i shall begin with the first , viz. to prove the lawfulnesse of my practice in giving in a narrative of what i had done ; this is not forced from me , i offered this from the begining ( i mean since i was condemned , i would not do it before ) to let them know what i had done in this whole businesse , but it would not be accepted unlesse i would name other men , which i was then loath to do , but , upon further consideration , i afterwards inclined to it . the reasons which induced me to give in a narrative of what i my self had done ( i being now a condemned man ) are these . first , as self justification can do me no good , so self accusation can do me no hurt ; before i was convicted i would not confesse a word , that were to make me guilty of mine owne blood , if out of my owne mouth they should condemn● me ; then confession might have been a prejudice to me , but now it can be none . secondly , my acknowledgment may soften , and sweeten , the spirits of those toward me , in whose hands my life is , remove many prejudices out of their minds , that i am not obstinate or perverse , when they shall see me deale with them with an ingenuous freedom , and opennesse of heart to them . thirdly , i do it to take off jealousies . out of the minds of them who are in power , who surmise plots and designes carrying on against them , who suspect there is not a full discovery of this businesse ; upon this ground therefore i shall discover what i well remember , and distinctly know in this businesse . fourthly , i am willing the world should know the worst i have done , therefore i shall acknowledge , not only what is proved against me , but those things none in the world could accuse me of , they are such things as i need not , i ought not be ashamed of , viz. that i desired , as a private man , there might be an agreement between the king and the scots , upon the interest of religion , and tearms of the covenant ; or that i relieved massey with money , not upon any military accompt ▪ but meerly as a supply for his personall necessities , &c. these are things i am not , i need not , be ashamed of . fifthly , if i should now conceale what i had do●● , the world would thinke w●rse of it than it is , and worse of me than i am . sixthly , i intend upon the scaffold to make an acknowledgment of what i have done , and why may i not do it before ? i need not , ought not , be ashamed to justifie what i have done , upon the scaffold , i have done nothing either by the lawes of god or of this nation for which i ought to dve , although by their bloody lawes , they have condemned me to dye . these are the reasons why i have confest against my selfe . i am now to give reasons why i have in my narrative confest against other men , when before i did refuse to doe it . to this also i shall give a brief yet satisfactory account ; it is true , before i was condemned i would not accuse any man , because then my testimony haply would be looked upon as valid in law against them ▪ so that in that case , i had rather lay downe my owne life than be instrumentall in taking away the life of another man . i might have had my owne life given me for a prey , would i have but informed against other men , and so devoted their lives for a sacrifice to the bloody rage of men , but ● still withstood it . i then was , and still am of this principle , to judge it better to be a sufferer with the brethren ▪ than an accuser of the brethren , especially when my accusation may turne in the least to their prejudice . the reasons which swayed with me to name other men in my narrative , are these . . because my testimony ( being a condemned man ) is not valid in law , and so can do them no harm , as to estate or life . . i do name those persons only , who are already discovered , and certainly known to those in power ; should i goe about to vindicate them , i should do them no good , and now i do nominate them . i can do them no hurt . . most of the persons i have named , have given me their consent that i should name them ; so that themselves being judges , they thought i could do them no injury . . most of the persons i have named in my narrative , have of their own accords confessed as much ( if not more ) than i have spoken concerning them ; yea before i have sent in my narrative ( for i am one of the last , though my danger is the greatest ) they have sent in theirs , and confessed against themselves more than i have mentioned in my narrative . thus i have spoken as briefly as the matter would permit , to justifie the title and matter of my petitions , and the giving in of my narrative ; this i doe , because i would give no offence either to jew , or gentile , or the church of god . there are other scandalous aspersions and slanderous reports cast upon me , which i must endeavour to satisfie the world about . i have publikely made . solemne and true protestations , both on the first and last day of my appearing before the high court of justice , the truth wherof i still stand to maintaine ; it is bruited abroad , that both by the testimony of the witnesses , and by my owne confession i have contradicted my own protestations , which is most notoriously false , i did therefore in the end of my tryall declare , that it was my rejoycing , that though . witnesses came in against me , yet none of them did contradict or falsifie my . protestations ; i had rather dye , than any should make my glorying voyd , yea , i had much rather be made a sufferer than a lyar . in going about to vindicate my self in these particulars , i shall give you the reason why i made these protestations , because the charge was so black and foule against me , of corresponding with the king , queen , iermin , and piercy , of raising great sums of money for the scots to maintaine a war against this nation , &c. to remove prejudices from the minds of my judges , and of the hearers then present , i did make these three protestations , the truth whereof i stand now to justifie and seal with my blood . . the first protestation i made before the high-court was this ; viz. that i never writ any letters either to the king of scots , or the queen his mother , or to the church or state of scotland , or to any particular person of the scotish nation , since the beginning of the warres between england and scotland , to this day . this first petition hath not been falsified , either by the testimony of my accusers , or my own confession . none of the . witnesses did prove that i ever writ a letter , yet , i confesse , i did write one to massey in scotland , and another to bamfield in holland , yet my protestation is not falsified , for they are both of the english , not of the scotish nation ; though i did write to massey who was in the scotish nation , yet is he not of the scotish nation ; so my protestation holds true . . my second protestation was this , that i never received any letters writ to me , either from the king of scotland , on the queen his mother , or the church or state of scotland , in the generall , or from any other particular person of the scotish nation , from the beginning of the warres between the two nations to this day . this protestation is true also , and hath not been contradicted by my own confession , or any of the witnesses , only capt. potter did swear , that he received a letter from colonell bamfield with a great l. on it , and that there were enclosed letters from scotish lords and from mr. bayly a scotish minister . he said in his examinations : before the committee of the councell of state , that he conceived the letter from bamfield was writ to me ; but before the high-court , being on his oath , he could not say so ; nay , he said he thought it was not writ to me ; nor can i imagine why colonell bamfield should write to me , for i had never heard from him , or writ to him before ; nor did i ever see his face . but if bomfields letter with a great l. written on it , had been writ to me , yet my protestation is not contradicted , for bamfield is an english man , not a scotch man : now my proteftation was , that i received no letters writ to me from any of the scotish nation , since the wars began . moreover , the letters from the scotch lords , and mr. bayly the scotch minister ( which were enclosed in bamfields letter ) had not a great l. written on them , as bamfields letter had , and were not writ to me ; and had those letters from the scotch lords , and the scotch minister been written to me ( which they were not ) yet my protestation is not falsified , for captain potter received them , opened them , read them , before he shewed them to me , he kept them and carried them away , as was confest in open court , but i did neither , nor did i write an answer to those letters from the scotch lords , or the scotch minister ; indeed i did write to bamfield in holland , but he is of the english , not of the scotish nation : so my protestation not contradicted . my third protestation was this , that i never collected , gave , or lent ●ne penny of money to send into scotland , or any foreign parts , either to the king , queen , church ▪ or state of scotland , or to any particular persons of the scotish nation , since the beginning of the wars unto this day . as to these three particulars i have said it , and doe say it againe , i am as innocent as my harmlesse child that is not years old . this third protestation is true also , though i did send l. to one bamfi●ld in holland , and l. to massey in scotland , for they are of the english , not of the scotish nation ; yea , though i did give money to relieve poor scotch men , prisoners , and others here in london , yet this contradicts not my protestation , for therein i said , i did not give money to send into scotland , or any other fo●eign parts , to any persons of the scotish nation ; but i did not say i did not give here in london to any person of the scotish nation , i did relieve many of the poor scotch prisoners who were taken at dunbar fight , and brought to black-wall : yet this doth not falsifie my protestation ; though i did give money to poor scotch men in london , yet i sent none into scotland to any scotch person since the wars began , to this day . when i first put pen to paper , i did not intend to look fo far back as the tryall , but because the tryall is so mis-represented , and mis-reported in some bookes in print , especially in that lying book , called , the plea for the common-wealth , and because many black and hideous things are laid to my charge , of which i am not guilty . wherefore i shall doe two things , . lay down what none of the . witnesses did prove against me . . give a brief extract of what they did prove against me , that so the world may be satisfied upon what i was condemned to dye . none of the . witnesses did prove in court . . that i writ letter to the king of scots , or queen , or jermin , or piercy , or to any other persons in foreign parts , either in or of the scotish nation , since the wars began , to this day . . or , that ever letter was writ in my house , or in any place else where i was present . . or , that ever i directed , ordered or perswaded any others to write . . or , that i did know of any person that did write letters into scotland , or any foreign parts . . or , that ever i sent , or gave my consent to the sending away of any letters into scotland , or any forein parts . . or , that ever i received any letter from scotland , or any foreign parts . . or , that i ordered any other person to receive letters for me . . or , that ever i did so much as read any letter in my house , or anywhere else , that did come from scotland , or from foreign parts . . or , that ever i collected , gave , or lent any money , either for the king of sc●ts , the queen his mother , the church and state of scotland in the generall , or for any particular persons , either in , or of the scotish nation , since the beginning of the wars to this day . . or , that ever i invited any foreign forces to invade either england or ireland . . or , that i was , in the least , privy to , or accquainted with any preparations or endeavours tending to the raising of intestine insurrections at home , or joyning with any foreign invasions from abroad . none of these particulars were proved against me , yet i was condemned to dye ; which doth manifest to the world , that i i am put to death rather upon an interest of state , than principles of conscience ; rather to put a terror upon others , than for the merits of the facts i have don my self , yet my oppressors slay me , and hold themselves not guilty . the most that was proved against me , was this , that i was present at meetings in severall fasts , to begge a blessing on the treaty between the king and the scots , that there might be an agreement between them , upon the interest of religion , and termes of the covenant ; that i was severall times present at my house when letters were read , that either were sent to , or received from scotland ; that i moved for money for massey and titus ( yet one of the witnesses swore that it was not upon a military account ) to maintain the war in scotland , but meerly to relieve the personall necessities of massey and titus ; that two of the witnesses brought fifteen pound for massey and titus to my house , viz. potter brought ten pound , and far brought five pound , but neither charged me that i received it . here i desire the reader to take notice , that though . witnesses came in against me , yet no two of them did concurre in their testimony to prove any one thing against me , unlesse that i was present at the bearing of letters read , which other men brought to my house . as for all other things , though two witnesses might sometimes speake ad idem , yet not to the same thing , eodem tempore . 't is true , two swore that i moved for money , yet one swore i did it in a meeting , the other swore i did it to him alone at another time , but lest it should be thought i am too favourable in my own cause , i have here made an extract , out of the depositions of the witnesses , that so you may see the worst that is proved against me . a brief extract or collection out of the depositions of the witnesses against master love . the first witnesse was captain potter . potter sware , he brought ten pounds to my house , which he intended for masey and titus , he laid it downe in my parlour , . or . being present , but proved not that i saw him , or bid him lay the money down , or that i received it , i can truly say i did neither . potter sware he did receive letters , one from bamfield , another from four lords in scotland , viz. argile , loudon , lothian , and bellcarris , and another from mr. bayly , on the superscription was a great l. but said it was not to me , but he said he shewed them me , and some others at my house , and when he came in he said , mr. love , i have nues to shew you ; in one of the letters there was a motion for ten thousand pound , but , said he , we all disliked that motion , dissented from it , and resolved to send a nagative answer , yea he might have said , that i was the man that disswaded them from doing any thing in that businesse . potter said , an answer to those letters was brought and left at his shop he said he thought it came from me and dr. drake , but , god is my witnesse , i neither sent , carried , nor left , letter at his shop in all my life . alford said , william drake held a correspondence with scotland , but he knew no ministers that knew this . he said , that after he came from callis he brought to william drake a narrative from captaine titus of all his proceedings at iersey , and how the cavaleers abused him , and also brought a copy of a letter from the king , he said , this was read at my house . he said , there was a commission and instructions read at my house , a little before the treaty at bredah , to authorise the lord willoughby , bunce , massey , titus , graves , to use their interest in the king , and in the scots , commissioners to agree in their treaty upon the terms of the covenant . i desire you to take notice , that this was the only meeting i was at about an agree agreement between the king and the scots , and at this meeting i did declare against the sending this commission and instructions , as being an act of high presumption , for private men to commissionate , and an act of notorious falshood to say this was in the names of the presbyterian party , when none knew of it but those present , but it seems it was sent away by alford without my knowledge or consent ; indeed alford sware , that i was present , but could not say that directed in it , yea he contradicted himself , in saying at one time the commission and instructions were agreed upon , and at another time , that they were read at my house but not agreed upon . alford said , after dunbar fight , that there was a letter which was said to come from massey , relating how many were lost , writ for arms by the way of holland , he spake also of his owne and titus necessities , being strangers in scotland , he said all waved the businesse for arms , but a proposition was made for supplying those gentlemens necessities , without reference to armes , or any such thing , the summe was either , or . l. he said , that i did move for the contribution of money , but mentioned no summe , nor could he say the money was raised , i doe verily beleeve the summe promised to massey and titus was never gathered , nor sent unto them from england . huntington said , that in the heginning of march , . he was at my house , where he heard a commission read by william drake , written in characters , to be sent to the lord willoughby , bunce , massey , &c. and said that i should say , upon the hearing of it read , come , come , let it goe , which in the presence of god i declare , is notoriously false ; yea another of the witnesses said , that all the company was against sending it . bains could not testifie a word concerning me . adams said , he could not say mr. love had a hand in letters sent to scotland , or in letters of sending moderate propositions to the king . he said , that when alford returned from callis , he brought with him a narrative from titus , and a copy of a letter from the king , but he could not swear the letter was read at mr. love's house . the narrative from titus , was to give account how he was ill used by the cavalier party . he said there was a motion about a commission and instructions to be drawn up , and sent , but by whom he could not say , he could not say it was agreed to be sent , it was read in mr. love's study , and mr. love was there some part of the time . he said , the substance of the instructions , was to use all arguments they could to move the king to give the scots satisfaction , to take the covenant , but he could not say , that he heard mr. love say , come , come , let it goe . adams being ask'd , whether was there not a letter , sent from piercy for money to be sent to the king , read at mr. love's house ? he said , no certainly ; he said he saw such a letter in masons hand . he being asked , whether about august . a letter was not sent from massey to some here , that he had back friends in scotland ; complaining , he could not be promoted there , and whether was not this communicated at mr love's house ? he answered , no certainly . and being demanded , whether mr. love was not named to draw up a letter to be sent to scotland ? he said , i was not named , but himselfe was , and some others . he said , one sterkes , whom be took to be a scots agent , met sometimes at mr. love's house . i desire you to take notice , that this sterkes was no scots agent , he was not in scotland for years before , and he told me himself , that he was no agent . he said , there were eight or ten meetings in master love's house , within two years . he said , when massey's letter was read mr. love was there , it did declare the poverty of his condition . being asked , whether mr. love did not write down the summes that each would give to massey , he said , that i had a pen in my hand , did write something , but he knew not what i did write , but particular men did write their summes , but he could not say , that i writ either names or sums . he said , at a meeting at my house , i being sometimes present , there was a letter read penned by mr. love and dr. drake , but being askt why he thought mr. love penned it , he said , meerly because of the language of it . this letter was declared to be sent to the assembly of the church of scotland , and this was after dunbar fight . this letter was read in my house , it is true , but never written by me . he mentions a letter in the nature of a declaration to be sent to scotland , penned either by mr. love or dr. drake , but i know nothing of this , i remember no such thing , but afterwards he said he had no ground to say master love penned it . he said , he conceived me to be a correspondent , but could not say that i was so . iaquell said , that the narrative alford brought from titus at callis was read in my house , but could not say that the copy of the kings letter was read there . he saith , that i was not in the room when he came in , and that i went out oftentimes . he said , potter received letters from bamfield , and the marquesse of argyle , and brought them to my house , and that potter read the letters , in one of the letters there was a motion for five thousand pounds , but it was refused by all , none liking of that businesse . he said , it was thought convenient the messenger should have money , but could not say that i agreed to give him any . colonell barton sware nothing against me , but only that i was at a fast at his house , but could not tell whether i exercised there or no . captaine far sware , that at the ending of the treaty at iersey , a letter was sent from titus , to desire sombody to be sent to callis , to take an account of his negotiations ; said , this letter was read in my study , and that i was present ; and said , it was agreed alford should go , being his sonne was gone from him . i desire the reader to observe how captaine far forswears himselfe , and contradicts another mans testimony , for alford sware , he was never at my house till after he came from callis , yet far saith , he was there before ; that he was desired at my house to go to callis , yet alford swears he was never at my house till he returned from callis . captaine far said , when alford gave an account , at his returne from callis , i● was at my house , but he could not say that i was present , but , he said , i was absent sometimes . he said , at a meeting at my house , william drake read papers under the name of commission and instructions , they were read in the company , but they were not agreed upon , because private persons could not do such a thing as give commission , &c. he conceived the commission was in the name of the presbyterian party , but could not say so ; he said william drake undertook to draw up the instructions , but he could not say they were drawn up , or sent . he said , that those that were named commissioners , they were to advise but not to treat in the behalf of the presbyterian party . after the fight at dunbar , a letter from massey , to assist both with money and arms , was read , but he said he came in late and did not hear it read ; he could not say positively such a letter was read , but that i told him so , and that i told him we could not do it . he said , that i told him we had agreed to raise a summe of money for massey and titus , either livre. or livre. he said that i asked him what he would do , so he brought five pound and laid it upon my table when severall persons were in the room ; and being askt whether i was in the room , he said , yes , my lord , but he could not say any els was , so he contradicted himself ; before he said severall persons were present , now , he said , he could not tell that any els but my self was in the room ; yea , he could not say that i received it , or see him lay it downe , or bid him lay it downe ; and further he saith , he doth but conceive that the money was for massey or titus . he could not say that i was privy to the negotiation with titus , nor that i was present at the reading of the copy of the kings letter , which alford brought from callis , nor that i was present whil'st that the narrative was read . he being askt , whether i did send alford to callis , or agree to the sending of him ? he answered that he thinks i did not . he being askt , whether i gave my consent to the sending away of the commission ? he answered , that he could not say that i was there when it was sent away . and being askt , whether i did not protest against it ? he answered , that it was agreed by all that the commission should not be sent . he being askt , whether he thought that i received the five pound he laid on my table ? he answered no , but he thought another did receive it , and named who . thus you have an extract of all the eight witnesses have deposed without extension or omission of any materiall passage in any mans testimony . i wish from my heart that all the depositions , together with my defence made in court , were truly published by an impartiall hand , then i should be confident the reader would justifie me , though the high court have condemned me . being now upon the testimony of the witnesses i crave leave to insist a little larger upon it than i at first intended , that i may manifest the more clearly , the insufficiency , falsnesse , and contradictorinesse thereof ; what the evangelist observes touching the accusers of christ , i may without vanity say of mine , that they did not agree among themselves , one witnesse sware one thing , and another sware the quite contrary , yea they did not only contradict ●ne another , but sometimes contradict themselves , as i have made appear more fully in my defence before the high court . i did never see witnesses more confounded than they were ▪ so that though their testimony did condemne my person , yet i ( nay themselves ) have condemned their owne testimony ; so that may i say , without vanity , that promise is made good , isa. . . every tongue that shall rise up in judgement against thee thou shalt condemn , this is the heritage of the servants of the lord . to evidence this to the world , i shall give you a brief , and true relation , of sundry remarkable passages concerning the witnesses , either before , or in , or after , the tryall , which will , if not nullifie , yet invalidate and disparage their , testimony , in the thoughts of judicious and impartiall men . i shall begin with the first witnesse , which was captaine potter . i beseech you take notice , concerning him , of these particulars . first , if ever his testimony be published , he doth rather justifie than accuse me , he fastens nothing capitall upon me ; yea , secondly he swears , he met at my house sometimes on a friendly , sometimes on a christian account , or to hear news , that was the worst he did swear about the meeting at my house . thirdly , he swore in court , that till master prideaux remembered him of some things out of the examinations of other men he could not remember them , or speak to them , yet things done so long agoe , and forgotten by a man are counted to be sufficient proof against me . fourthly , he was threatned with death if he would not , and promised his life by mr. prideaux and mr. scot if he would confesse what he knew , and witnesse against me . and because he did not swear to every addition and agravation against me , put into his examination ( by capt. bishop clerke of the committee ) which he discovered in court , and said , all was not his , therefore he is condemned to dye , and in great danger to lose his life . the second witnesse was major alford , he was in much trouble before he came in against me , he told his sister , and other friends , they would put him to death , if he did not testifie against me ; but now he sees me condemned , he is filled with shame , that he cannot walk the streets , and with sorrow , that he can neither sleep , nor eat his bread with comfort . yea , mr. cranford coming once to visit him , did finde him lying on his bed in a dark room , in much disquiet of minde ; he told mr. cranford , that nothing did trouble him so much in all his life , as his witnessing against me , and were it to do again , he would never doe it , if he had ten lives to lose . mr. cranford told me this , that he heard it from alfords own mouth . i hear that he is not well , but i believe i may say agrotat animo magis quam corpore , and that he hath great cause to be . the third witnesse was major huntington , a man whose face i never saw but once at my house , nor since , but at my tryall : he is not only a dissembling fellow , but a most perjured wretch ; he did hardly swear one true word , as relating to things done at my house , yea , as to me , he sware most falsly that i said of the commission , come , come , let it goe , which is a most notorious lye ; yea , captain far , another of the witnesses who was then present , sware the quite contrary , that all the company was against the sending the commission , and did allege the reason that i gave against it , that private men had not power to commissionate , &c. the fourth witnesse was lieutenant colonell baines , that arch-apostate from his first principles , he told the court a long story , but did not , could not say one word concerning me , so he went as wise as he came . the fifth witnesse was major adams , who is a monster among men , and will be , i am perswaded , a monument of misery to all that know him ; i have many things to say concerning him . first , he was a hired witnesse against me ; one major cobbet ( a pragmaticall fellow ) was imployed by mr. scot to subborne this major adams , and did so , and to that end did give him l. to that purpose , i seeing him stand by me in the court , did charge this cobbet with it ; all the eva●ion he had was this , that he lent the . l. to major adams his wife , because he thought he was poor , yet i could have produced witnesses in court ( but the high-court would not permit it ) to prove , that adams had received a vast summe of money from mr. scot , and from others by mr. scots appointment , to betray me , and the rest of the ministers and citizens now in the tower ; so that we may say of this adams , as nehemiah did of shemaiah , that suborned prophet , neh. . , . and so i perceived god had not sent him , for tobiah and sanballat had hired him . and therefore was he hired , that they might have matter for an evill report , that they might repr●ach me peradventure , god may fill him with such horror of conscience , and consternation of minde before he dies , that he may bring back the money , the price of my blood , to those tabiahs and sanballets who hired him , as judas did in trouble of conscience bring back the pieces of silver to the priests and pharises , who did hire him to betray jesus christ . secondly , this adams , would ordinarily come once or twice a week to my house un-invited , on purpose , i now perceive , to insnare me ; he would be very inquisitive after newes from scotland , and would be very free to offer me money , and asking , whether i knew of no publique use that required money ? but , as the lord ordered it , i never received a penny from him . thirdly , this wretched adams hath been in pay with mr. scot above these moneths , yet he was not to discover himself , but to cary himselfe as formerly , that so he might insnare honest men with the lesse suspicion . this , this is the onely man who hath accused . godly ministers , many worthy citizens ; all who are now in trouble , were brought to prison upon his single information . i speak this upon knowledge ; for by a speciall providence i have gotten a copy of his informations he hath given in to mr. scot : yea , he hath informed of every private fast that he himself was at , signified what persons were present , who preacht and prayd , and what they prayed about the state ; he hath accused many of the secluded members also . there hath been such a continuance in , and contexture of studied wickednesse , and all under a high pretence of profession , that i think there is not such a parallel in the whole world . oh! i do wonder how this wretch can sleep by night , or eat his bread by day , with any comfort , who hath bin the cause of ● godly ministers imprisonment , and of the withdrawing of others from their families and pulpits . oh! i durst not lye under this mans guilt for worlds . fourthl● , to cover all this wickednesse , they must accuse him of high-treason , clap him close prisoner , yet underhand they did maintaine him there ; yea , he did shed tears , and pretend trouble , that he was forced to come in against me . he told mistris jackson in the poultrey , that he did not know whether he had not better chuse to be hanged , than to swear against me ; yea , he took a cup of wine or beer ( in the presence of mr. spencer a minister , and his son , who lives in the poultrey ) wishing it might be his poyson , if either he had accused me , or would accuse me . this mr. cranford told me he had from mr. spencer himselfe . all this was to cover his wickednesse , that he might not be suspected to be a hired or suborned witnesse . and herein you may see the falsenesse and wretchednesse of this man , he that pretended trouble and sorrow before he did come in a witnesse against me , now discovers impudency , impenitency , and hardnesse of heart , after he hath maliciously sworn against me , to take away my life ; the lord open his eyes , and touch his heart , that he may at length see , and bewaile his great wickednesse . the sixth witnesse was mr. jaquell . i dare not say he accused me out of studied knavery , as adams did , but onely out of base feare and cowardize , to save his own life he would cast away mine . concerning mr. iaquell i shall mention but a few particulars first . he did fully resolve , before he was taken into custody , neither to accuse himself , or any other ; yet , through fear , did both . secondly , when he was brought in open court to be a witnesse against me , he did , for at least half an hour , refuse to swear , or to be a witnesse against me , yea , when he came first in the court , be said he was a close prisoner , accused of the same crim● that i was accused of , that he was not a competent witnesse against me , yea , he said oftentimes that he could not in conscience be a witnesse against me ; the counsell for the common-wealth , and the court did still presse him to take his oath against me , yet he did still refuse ; he was fined l. and sent out of the court ; and immediately he was called into the court again , and urged to take his oath , and threatned if he would not ; they told him they had fined him l. for refusing to swear against me ; upon this he was more yielding to take his oath , yet he did not take his oath as any of the rest did , but did only put up his hand by his buttons , and when i asked him , whether he was under an oath ? he answered , that he was as good as under an oath ; at length he did mutter out that he was under an oath , but yet since i was condemned his owne wife came to me , told me how much her husband was troubled for what he had done , and did assure me , that her husband told her , that he did not looke upon himself as under an oath . thirdly , when this poor man heard that i was condemned to dye , then in the anguish of his soule he did write me a letter , wherein , among other things , he did confesse he had done me wrong , and desired me to forgive him the wrong he had done me , and had this passage among the rest in his letter , which i have transcribed to a word . surely ( said he ) in that day that i shall hear of your life being violextly taken away , mine will be but a little comfort to me , being an instrument in takin● away of yours . the seventh witnesse was colonell barton . hee had nothing to say against me , but that i was once at his house at a fast , of which i am not ashamed . the eighth witnesse was captain far . he was so astonished and confounded , that he could not speak an entire sentence of himself ; but only what he was prompt by mr. prideaux . he was so struck with fear , that sometimes he spake non-sence , otherwhile falshoo●● , and otherwhiles spake manifest contradictions to himselfe : the poor man was so amazed , that he knew not what he said , or what he d●d , but mr. atturney had his examinations , which were taken in private , and patcht together by mr. scot , and captain ●ishop , and by the help of those papers , mr. prideaux made a ●hift to rubbe up his slippery memory , and to helpe his slow tongue ; and mr. prideaux perceiving that captain far was likely to marre his own evidence , had he been let alone to himselfe , therefore mr. prideaux helps him at a dead lift , and puts to captain far no lesse than fourscore and eighteene questions , or leading interrogatories a thing which i think was never heard of before practised , in any court since william the conquerours dayes , untill then ▪ yet by the poor misled members of the court this was well accepted of , though i did protest against it as a most illegall practice . now i am condemned , i am informed , that this captain far is much troubled to thinke of my death . touching these accusers i will say but this , they did prosecute my life , to preserve their own ; i have done with them , i pray god begin with them , to humble their hearts , and shew them their sinne● , that they may see , and fear , and do no more so wickedly ; for my part i would not change conditions with them they are in a sinning , but i onely in a suffering condition . i had rather be a sufferer with the brethren , than an accuser of the brethren . i have more peace and quietnesse who am to dye , than they will have who have bought their lives at so dear a rate , as with the price of my blood . having spoken largely about my witnesses , i shall mention but a word about the partiality of my iudges . i think there was never such violent , indirect procee●ings to take away the life of a minister , since the reign of queen mary , to this day . they suffered the examinations of the witnesses , composed by mr. scot and captain bishop , to be read in court , which is contrary to law and justice , and the customes of all courts . they commanded the scaffolds to be put up the first day , when my black and bloody charge was read , and the witnesses produced in court , but pulled down the scaffolds when i made my defence● , not caring how many heard my charge , nor how few heard me to clear my selfe . and they gave me but from saturday till wednesday to make my defence , although the depositions were to write out , which were sheets of paper , which i was to peruse and answer . though they pulled down the scaffolds when i made my defence , yet they put them up again , when the counsell for the common-wealth were to make their reply to my defence ; all this was that i might lye under more disadvantage in the judgement of the spectators . yea , such was the partiality of the court , that they refused to hear my witnesses , when produced them in court . and after they had assigned me counsell , they rejected two of them , one of them could not be there , and the fourth , viz. mr. hales , was not acquainted with my case , i never spake with him untill halfe an hour before the court sate , he never saw nor read the depositions , yet they would not allow my counsell a days time to study my case , but he must plead then , ●x tem●ore , or not at all . oh extremity of rigour ! yea further , though i had a notary to write for me , yet have they taken away all the books from him ▪ so that nothing shall come to the publique view , but with what additions or alterations they please , to my greater disadvantage ; but my hope is , that some faithfull pen or other hath writ my defence , and the witnesses depositions , and according to them let my innocency be judged by indifferent and unprejudicated men . but enough of this . i have but one thing more to doe in this vindication of my person and ministry , and that is to answer a grand objection which is brought against me , object . viz. that all the blood of ●co●lana is charged upon me , and the rest of my brethren whom they call my confederates . answer . to take off this false and most notorious slander , i shall dispatch these . particulars , viz. . give you something to observe in the generall . . manifest that i have no hand in the war with our dear brethren of scotland . . lay down arguments drawn from instances of scripture , clearnesse of reason , & interest of state to prove the unlawfulnes of the e●glish arm●'s invading of scotland ; then conclude with some demonstrative suggestions , what may be the intollerable mischiefes , sad corsequence , and unexpressible calamities that may befall the godly party in both nations , if the english army prevaile over our brethen of scotland , to subdue and conquer them . . touching this objection , i shall give you something to observe in generall , that is this , that these men do as n●ro did , set rome on fire , and then charge the christians with it ; so do these new common-wealths men put two kingdomes on fire , blow the sparks of dissention into a flame , so causing a mighty combustion and conflagration , yet charge it upon us , who pour out tears to quench the burning which their lusts and ambition ( who affect only earthly domination & rule over their brethren ) hath kindled in the neighbour nation . as the gunpowder traytors charged that plot of blowing up the parliament ( which themselves onely contrived ) upon the puritans , who were ever friends , never enemies to parliaments , till this apostate generation of men stood up ; so doe these trayterous hereticks lay lasting seeds of division between the two nations , invade scotland , imbrue their hands in their brethrens blood , slay them with a rage reaching up to heaven , spill their blood like water on the ground , yet we must be charged with all this blood , who have had no hand in , but a detestation of the invasion of the neighbour nation ; the lord judge bttween them and us . what act have i done ( my enemies themselves being judges ) to make me guil●y of the blood spilt in scotland ? did i ever encourage cromwell to invade scotland ? or ever invite the scotish nation to invade england ? let cromwell and his confederates look to it , the bloud of scotland will cry in the eares of him who is the avenger of blood , who hath said , the earth shall not cover the blood of her slain ; i may say as elijah said to ahab , it is thou , and thy fathers house , that hath trouble israel ; so it is not i , but cromwell , vane , bradshaw , and the rest of that crew , who have troubled scotland . when god comes to make inquisition for blood , they will be charged with all the blood of scotland . if they will say , the king had not agreed with the scots , had it not been for me and my confederates , and so by consequence i am guilty of all the blood shed in scotland . to this i say , . if i , by any strained consequence , should be found guilty of the blood of scotland , then cromwell and his army , who did actually and cruelly shed their blood , are directly guilty of all the blood shed in scotland . . by no kind of consequence can the guilt of scotland's blood be charged on me : i would fain know what act i have done , that hath a remote tendency to the sheding of blood in scotland ; can i be said by consequence to be guilty of the blood of scotland , only for praying the king may agree with the scots upon the interest of religion , and terms of the covenant ? there is no more consequence in this , than to say tenterden steeple is the cause of goodwin sands ; nor no more consequence , than in the iesuits argument , that because christ did feed the multitude with five loaves and two fishes ; therefore there must be seven sacraments . thirdly , for my part i am a man of such an obscure station , that it was not within my sphere to be able to doe any thing to promote the agreement between the king and the scots , otherwise than by my poor prayers . i was at no meeting ( as i remember ) to promote that end ( fast onely excepted ) but one at my house , at which time william drake propounded this question , what we should do to promote the agreement between the king and the scots at the treaty at bred●h ? he drew out some papers written in characters , which he called , a commission and instructions to severall persons in holland to use their i●terest to fu●ther the agreement between the king and the scots . when i heard it , i declared my self against it , as being an act of high presumption for private persons to send commi●●ion and instructions , and an act of notorious falshood to say it was in the name of the presbyterian party , when none knew thereof but those present , that i know of ; yea one of the witnesses , viz. captain far , swore that all the company were against sending them . i know no more that i have done to promote the agreement , yet the blood of scotland is charged upon me . but suppose i had done a hundred times more than i did , to promote the agreement between the king and the scots , upon the interest of religion , and terms of the covenant , yet how can i be justly charged with all the blood of scotland , for desiring the king should agree with that kingdom who had proclaimed him king ? what law of god , or of the land , have i broken , if i had done so ? the covenant counts them malig●ants , incendiaries , and evill instruments , that desire or endeavour the contrary , videlicet , divide the king from his people , or one of the kingdoms from another . . i say no more concerning this , i shall be more large in the d. viz. lay down some arguments to prove the unlawfulnesse of the english army's invading scotland . yet i intend not to handle the case of invasion , to shew in what cases only an invasion of another nation in a hostile manner is lawfull : i am from all my books , that i cannot consult with casuists in that point ; all that i shall doe at present , is to give some scripture instances , that may hint unto us the unwarrantablenesse of the war with that nation of the same religion , and in covenant with us ; and then give reasons and considerations , drawn from interest of state , against the unlawfull invasion of scotland . had god given me life , i intended a large treatise concerning the usurpation of the government of england , and the unlawfulnesse of the invasion of scotland ; but my collections being lost and taken away , they must dye with me ; i hope more able hands will write against the invasion , though they cannot fight against the invaders . i will offer but a few scripture instances that may suggest something against this bloody war with our brethren in covenant with us . read amos . . . . . i will not turn away the puni●●ment of tyrus because they have delivered the whole cap●ivity to edom , and remembred not the brotherly covenant . so that scotland may say as in obadiah , ver. . the men of my confederacy that were at peace with me have deceived me , and prevailed against me . yea the english did to scotland , as edom did to israel , amos . . edom did pursue his brother with the sword , and did cast off all pitie , and his anger did teare continually ; did not cromwell do so to scotland , worse than edom to israe● ? let dunbar fight testifie , and the worse than butcherly usage afterwards of the prisoners there taken ; i may say to cromwell as god said to edom , for thy violence against thy brother jacob [ thy brother scotland ] shame shall cover thee , and thou shalt be cut off for ever , obad. v. . then in obad. v. , , , it is said , thou should'st not have entred into the ga●e of my people , in the day of their calamity , yea thou should'st not have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity , neither should'st thou have stood in the cross way to cut off those of his that did escape , neither shouldst thou deliver those of his that did remaine in the day of distresse . then it followes , as thou hast done , it shall be done to thee , thy reward shall returne upon thine owne head . i shall mention one scripture history that is pertinently applyed and published in print , entituled , the history of pek●h , it is worth your perusall ; pekah king of israel did sinfully invade jud●h , had the worser cause , and the lesser number , yet prevailed over iudah , then said oded the prophet , because the lord was wrath with iudah he hath delivered them into your hand , and yee have flaine them in a rage reaching up to heaven , and now ye purpose to keep under the children for bond-men , and bond-women unto you , but are there not with you , even with you , sins against the lord your god , & c ? and doth not c●o●●ell do this to scotland , as pekah did to iudah ? nay he is not so mercifull , for pekah returned the captives , restored the spoyle , arrayed them , and shoo'd them , gave them to eat and to drinke , and carried all the feeble of them upon asses , &c. chron. . . cromwell is so accustomed to works of cruelty , that he is far from shewing such acts of mercy to his brethren of scotland , as pekah did to his brethren of iudah . there is one chapter in ezekiel , that i have often thought of , which cannot be more aptly applyed to any in the world than to cromwell , and the rest of the invaders of the scot●ish nation it is the of ez●kiel v. . to the end , because thou hast had a perpetuall h●tred , and hast shed the blood of the children of israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity , in the time that their iniquity had an end , therefore as i live saith the lord , i will prepare thee unto bloud , and bloud shall pursue thee , and v. . because thou hast said , these two nations , and these two countries shall be mine , and we will possesse it , whereas the lord was there , therefore as i live saith the lord , i wil do according to thine anger and according to thine envy which thou hast used out of thy hatred against them , and i will make my self knowne amongst them when i have judged thee , &c. it is in scripture record accounted a more deplorable judgment to have nations of the same religion , and under the same government to wage war one with another , than to have a war with any other nations whatsoever , read chron. . , . nation shall rise against nation , that is the kingdome of israel against the kingdom of iudah , who were of the same religion , and also under the same government , during the reignes of saul , david , solomon , and part of rehoboams , so in . chron. . , . per totum , many instances out of scripture might have been produced to suggest to you how unwarrantable a thing it is for cromwell with his english army to invade , spoyle , and lay wast , their poor brethren of scotland . we are commanded zech. . . . ●o shew mercy and compassion every man to his neighhour , oppr●sse not the widdow nor the fatherl●ss , nor the stranger , nor the poor , and i t●none imagine ev●ll against his brother in your heart ; and the reason may be drawn from mal●chy . . have we not all one father ? hath not one god created us ? why doe we deal treacherously every man against his brother , by prophaxing the covenant of our fathers ? i have no more to say in this matter , but will say of cromwell , though he may prosper for a while against the people of god , yet i may say of him as god did of j●hojakim , tkine eyes and thi●e heart are not but for thy covetousnesse , and for to shed innocent bloud , and for oppression , and for violence to do it ; therefore , thus saith the lord , they shall not lament for him , saying , ah my brother , or , ah my sister , they shall not lament for him , saying , ah lord , or ah his glory , he shall be buried with the buriall of an ●sse , &c. ier. . , ▪ . i am in the next place to give some reasons to prove the unlawfullnesse of the invasion of our brethren of scotland , i shall lay down a few considerations whereby you may see the evill nature , and dangerous consequence of this war . first ; this warre with scotland is worse than the former war intended against scotland in the year . it is worse in many regards : . the first war was called bellum episcopale , this may be called bellum haereticale , ( if i may so say ) the first war would have brought in popish ceremonies , this war brings in damnable heresies , and hellish blasphemies ; by the first they would have scrued up monarchy into tyranny , by this they will pull down monarchy , and turne all to anarchy . . this war in the year . is worse than that intended about the yeare . , because then we were not under so many covenants , and engagements one towards another as now we are , cromwell invaded them after a covenant and articles of agreement for assistance made with them , after help and brotherly assistance received from them , yet he hath forgotten the brotherly covenant , with them , and all the kindnesses we have had from them in the day of out deep distresse . thirdly , this war hath not such an authority as the former had , the first was raised by the king and his councell , this by cromwell and a faction . fourthly , the souldiers , many of them , doe behave themselves worser than the souldiers the king and bishops did raise against the scots at first ; the kings soldiers were but ignorant and prophane , these many of them hereticks and blasphemers ; those did pull down crosses and pictures , these pull downe ordinances ; those drunk with wine or strong drink , but these drunk with error , having a spirit of gyddinesse and contradiction against the truth , which is the worst sort of drunkennesse . fifthly , far worse in the event also ; in the kings and bishops war not above slain one both sides , but in this war cromwell with a more cruel and bloody minde hath most barbarously slaine at least of the scotish nation , since he entered scotland , oh the bloody cruelty of this man ! . a second reason may be taken from the time when cromwell invaded them ; it was not when scotland was over-run with malignity , during the time of hambletons prevalency , but it was when the power of that kingdome was in the hands of the most religious and covenanting party in scotland , after hamblitons army was destroyed , and montrosse defeated ; and the godly party who managed the cause of god for these years faithfully , had all the power of that kingdome in their hands , then cromwell invaded them , which to me is an evident demonstration , that the invasion of scotland was by the instigation of jesuites , and the papists party to root out the protestant party in ●cotland , and to bring their persons in vassalage and thraldome as to their civill liberties . . a third reason may be drawn from the slight grounds cromwell had to invade scotland , because they would not be a common-wealth , therefore they shall not be a people ; because they will not break their covenants , therefore cromwell will break them ; because the● will not lay their consciences waste , he will lay their land waste and make it desolate ; because the scots are for a scripturall presbytery , and a well-regulated monarchy , for found doctrine and the power of godlynesse , therefore it is that cromwell is so much their enemy . whatever els may be pretended , ●et these were the true grounds why cromwell and the rest of the iesuited spanish faction did invade the neighbour nation . . a fourth reason may be taken from the wicked ends cromwell aims at in his invading scotland , viz. merely to satisfie his ambitious and covetous desires to be absolute lord of the estates , liberties and lives of all the people in these . nation ; it doth not content him to have one kingdome , viz. ireland for ireton his son , nor another kingdome , viz. england for himself , but he must have scotland also . his end is as was that of the children of ammon invading israel , in amos . . that they might inlarge their borders ; his end , and the end his souldiers aim is like that of the chaldaeans , that bitter and hasly nation to march thr●ugh the bredih ●f the land , to possess the dwelling places that are not theirs ; his end is like that of m●unt seir , who said , ●hese two nations , and these two countreys shall be mine , and wee will passesse them . so saith cromwell , these two nations , and these two countrves , viz. england and scotland shall be mine , and i will possesse them ; nor will all this content him , he seeks to be an universall monarch , like that ch●ldaean monarch in hab. . . he is a proud man , neither keepeth at home , who exlargeth his desire as hell , and cannot be satisfied , but gathereth unto him all nations , and heapeth unto him all people , but shall not all these take up a taunting proverbe against him , woe to him that encreaseth that which is not his , &c. we punish him with death who breakes open a house and robs but one family , but what a thousand deaths doth he deserve , who breaks into a kingdome , and robbes many thousand families , even a whole nation . the prophet hab akkuk pronounceth a woe to him that builds a town with blood , and establisheth a city by iniquity . hab. . . what a woe then shall befall cromwell , that doth not build townes with blood , but destroys many townes by blood , but builds up none ? that doth not stablish a city , but destroyes many cities in england and scotland by iniquity ? . a fifth reason may be drawn from the covenant and treaties between the two nations . i begin with the covenant so far as it concerns scotland . in the first article we promise to endeavour the preservation of the reformed religion in the church of scotland , in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government : but cromwells invading scotland tends directly to the destruction of the reformed religion in scotland , both in doctrine , by the many heresies the army spreads amongst them , and in worship , by those who are above ordinances , and in discipline and government by those that are inveterate enemies to the presbyteriall government , and are most of them for independency , or anabaptisme , brownisme , or scepticisme , &c. in the third article we promise to preserve the liberties of the kingdoms : but cromwells invading scotland , brings england under guilt , and scotland under beggery and slavery . in the fourth article we promise , that we shall endeavour the discovery of all such as have been or shall be incendiaries , malignants , or ev●ll instruments , by hindring the reformation of religion , dividing the king from his people , or one of the kingdomes from another . if these things be the brands that the covenant puts upon incendiaries , malignants , or evill instruments , then is not cromwell and his faction the great incendiaries , malignauts , and evill instruments , who have hindred the reformation of religion , nay blemished the very name , and destroyed the very face of religion ? and have they not divided the king from his people , not only by interrupting his agreement with the parliament , and dividing him from them , but by dividing his head from his body ? and have not they divided one of the kingdoms from another , and by this unjust invasion laid such seeds to dissentions , and irreconcileable differences , as are likely never to be healed , yea so divided as never likely to be united together any more ? in the fifth article it is said , where as the happinesse of a blessed peace between these kingdomes , denyed in former times to our pr●genitors , is by the good provide●ce of god granted unto us , and hath been lately concluded and setled by both parliaments , we shal each one of us indeavour that they may remaine conjoyned in a firme peace and union to all posterity . let the world judge whether cromwell and his invaders have endeavoured that the kingdoms may remain in a firme peace and union to all posterity ; he was so far from endeavouring to have this union kept to all posterity , that he dissolved this union within seven years after he promised to preserve this union , for he took the covenant in the yeare . and entred scotland , in a bloody hostile manner , in the yeare . thus you see cromwells invasion of scotland is repugnant to the whole scope and tenour of the covenant ; it is contrary to the articles of the treaty between both kingdoms ; for this is one among the rest , that one nation shall not wage war with each other , but give three moneths warning before hand ; but cremwell did not not give three dayes warning to scotland before he invaded their land . . i may draw the sixth reason from the judgement of the parliament , when free and full , they were still averse to any breach with , and war against , their brethren of scotland , as knowing it would endanger the protestant religion , and godly party in both the nations . i well remember the king called a parliament here in england in april . on purpose to raise money to carry on the warre against the scots , but the parliament utterly refused to grant any money to so ill a purpose , and did all they could to disswade the king from the warre with scotland , publiquely protesting against the war as dishonourable , and dangerous to religion , and both kingdomes ; whereupon , through the designes of the prelates and popish party that parliament was dissolved , within dayes after it was called . although the dissolving that parliament was a great grief of heart to all the godly in this nation , yet it was a rejoycing , that the parliament refused to engage in the war of scotland . after this , there were publique thanksgivings throughout all england , enjoyned by king and parliament , for the pacification between england and scotland . if the wisdome of the parliament in the year . judged it unlawfull to wage war against scotland upon the sollicitations of the king and bishops , because they would obtrude popish ceremonies upon that nation , may not we judge it much more unlawfull to wage war with scotland , to bring blasphemies , heresies , and slavery upon them , and that after we have had a brotherly assistance from them , and have entered into covenant with them ? there are l●●●e pretences to justifie the war with scotland in the year , by cromwell , than in the year . when the king intended to wage war with them . . a seventh reason may be drawn from the intollerable mischiefs , sad consequences , and unexpressible calamities likely to befall the protestant and covenanting party in the . kingdoms , the mischiefs and sad consequences of cromwells invading scotland , i shall reduce to . heads . . the war with the irish rebels is by this means neglected , and lengthened out ; had cromwell staid in ireland , and had but one half of the souldiers he hath now in scotland , in all likelyhood the irish wars had been ended long before now , the rebels destroyed , and the english had had a quiet and peaceable possession of that land . but cromwell ( through the counsell of the pope , king of spaine , and the iesuites ) had rather fight with the protestant covenanting party in scotland , than with the rebels of ireland . . by this means most grievous and burdensome taxes are continued and increased . i shall mention one thing , which to the vulgar may seem incredible , viz. that the iuncto at westminster have ( by the excise , customes , sequestrations and taxes ) received more money in one year , than all the kings of england , put them all together , since the conquest , did raise upon their subjects for such a space of time , yet the kings called oppressors , and these called saints , &c. . a totall eradication of the presbyteriall government in both the kingdoms . presbytery is the but , at which the prelates of old , and the sectaries of late , have shot their invenomed arrows . . a great indangering of all the protestant churches and states in europe . the kingdomes of england and scotland make up the greatest body of the protestant religion in christendome , being best able to defend themselves , and succour other reformed churches , when indangered and designed to ruine by popish enemies , therefore the discountenancing of the covenanting party in england , and the ruining of them in scotland , is the readiest way to indanger , conquer , ruine all other reformed churches in the world ; and how will this imbolden and encourage popish adveraries to invade and ruine the protestants whiles they see england and scotland ( who make up the greatest body of the protestant religion in christendome ) engaged in an un-brotherly and un-christian war between themselves , and weakning , impoverishing , and destroying each other ? . cromwells invasion of scotland , is an extraordinary ground of joy to the pope , and all his confederates . had the conclave of rome plotted together , they could not wish a more happy and hopefull designe to advance the interest of rome , and catholick religion ; that doth more glad and gratifie the popish party , than to see the protestant party in england and scotland ruining one another . i have read a very remarkeable story of a great politician in france , that is , cardinal richelieu , that a little before his death be left instructions and advice with the late french king , that he would use his utmost endeavour to foment the late differences between the king of england and the parliament , and , if it were possible , by the sollicitations of his instruments , to draw the house of commons in england to change their government , from a kingdome into a common-wealth ; by which means england and scotland would be imbroyled in warres one against another , which is the onely and best policy of all to weaken and destroy the protestant religion , and advance the interest of france , and catholique religion . the truth of this story is asserted by an italian of good note and credit , and published by him , and printed in italy , anno . i shall say no more touching this particular , but only this ; that i doe verily beleeve cromwels invading scotland in the year . makes it a year of iubilee in rome ; but a year of slavery to england and scotland , and a year of sorrow to all the protestant churches round about us ; which puts me upon the next sad consequence of this war , viz. . it will be , and is a great grief and sadning to all protestant states and churches round about us ; when they consider how we who have lived under one king , united in one covenant , ingaged in one and the same quarrell , that we should ruine and destroy one another , and that with such bloody rage , and cruell hatred as we doe ; what a grief is it to them to consider , that we who might have been their he●pers , are our own destroyers , neither able to assist them abroad , nor defend our selves at home ? . it will lay lasting foundations of irreconcileable discord between the two nations , that we who were the dearest friends , will be to each other the greatest enemies . . there will be a toleration of all heresies and blasphemies in the church , and an increasing of all oppression and violence in the state . these two usually goe together . iudges . . they chose new gods , then was there war in their gates . these , with manifold more inconceivable mischiefes are likely to arise , by reason of cromwels groundlesse and unwarrantable invasion of our neighbour nation . the last work i have now to doe about this vindication of my self , is to take off some aspersions and slanders unjustly laid upon me . . some report that i am under great fears of death , that much terror and trembling laies hold upon me . to which i say , that through the sence of the pardoning mercies of god , through the blood of sprinkling , the bitternesse , fear , and sting of death is much abated ; that i am delivered from the fear of death , to which all the former part part of my life i was subject unto bondage ; i speak it without vanity to the praise of gods glorious grace , i formerly have had more feare at the pulling out of a tooth , than now i have at the thoughts of the cutting off my head . i mention it to the praise of god , who supported me , the hearing of the sentence of death pronounced against me in the court , did no whit dismay me , i had as much calmnesse and quietnesse in my minde , at that very ho●●e , as ever i had in all my life yea since i have been condemned , i blesse god , i have not had one troubled thought , nor broke one hours rest , nor forborne one meals meat , yea the very night before i was to suffer , i supt as heartily , and slept as sweetly , as ever i did in all my life ; the hopes i have of an eternall life , doth swallow up the fears of a temporall death . . objection , but you confesse you have sinned , therefore you are put to death for your sinne . sol. i have indeed , and i ought to confesse my sinns against god , so condemne my self , and justifie god , acknowledging that i have sinned , and he is righteous in all that is come upon me , so that it is just with the most high to cut me off in the midst of my dayes , and in the midst of my ministry ; but yet i never said that i had sinned against god in the particular facts for which that cruell sentence was past upon me ; i say still as i did at the bar , when i received the sentence of death , that god did not condemne me , when i was judged , that neither god nor my own conscience did condemne me of sin ; i have transgressed their bloody lawes , it is true , yet not broken any command of god in so doing , they have sinned in making such lawes , not i in breaking them . i am far from thinking that i have sinned in what i have done , to desire the king might agree with the scots upon the interest of religion , and the terms of the covenant , to relieve that gallant gentleman major generall massey , to pray for and endeavour after the good of the godly in the neighbour nation of scotland , who are brethren in covenant with us ; i count all this my duty , not my sinne ; yet i deny not , but as infirmities doe cleave to my duties , so in the way of mannagement of this businesse , inadvertency , indiscretion , and too much opennesse might cleave to these actings of mine , but that the thing it self was evill that i never have , never shall confesse . . object . some are not ashamed to say , that i am a debaucht person , that i have been guilty of uncleannesse . sol. this i declare in the sight of god is most abominably false ; as luther said of himself , that he was not tempted to covetousnesse : so through the grace of god , i can say it without vanity or falshood , i have not been tempted to uncleannesse . i know no ground of this report but this , that on easter-day night last was six yeare , one of my name , master edward love , a chaplain in the army , was questioned before justice rich , dwelling about chancery lane , for being found in bed whith a whore , now because he was one of my name , some malignants did charge it upon me , but that grosse lye was soon quelled , but is now revived , and suggested to some in present power , on purpose to exasperate them against me : but why should i be troubled at these slanders ? my betters have been falsly accused as well as i ; two harlots accused athanasius that he was uncleane with them , when he was the chastest man of that age ; beza was accused of drunkennesse and uncleannesse also , who was free from both ; the jesuits accused calvin that he had the foule disease , that he was eaten up of v●●min ; yea the lord jesus was accused to have a devill , though the fulnesse of the god-head dwelt in him : . object . it is reported that i was unnaturall to my parents , that i would not relieve them in their necessities . sol. i am loth to commend my selfe , yet when another mans mouth doth accuse me , it is lawfull for my owne to praise me . my duty and naturall affections to my parents hath abounded , as i had great cause , for their tendernesse and care in my education , they have been dead above seven years since ; it is true , they had a competent livelyhood in the world , but fell to decay , and when they were necessitated , i speak it truly , when i was not worth li. in all the world , my parents had ten of it . object . it is reported that i neglected mr. erbury , who was the means of my conversion and education , that when he was plundred in wales , and came to england in a necessitous condition , that i would not relieve him . sol. as for master erbury , though he is fallen into dangerous opinions , yet , he being my spirituall father , i do naturally care for him , as timothy did for paul , my heart cleaves to him in love , more than to any one man in the world ; i speake to the praise of god , he was the instrument to my conversion , near twenty years agoe , and the means of my education also in the vniversity , for which kindnesse , the half i have in the world , i could readily part with for his reliefe . it is true , about eight or nine years since , he was plundered in wales , and did come to see me at windsor castle , but a sonne could not make more of a father , than i made of him , according to my ability ; when i had not twelve pounds in all the world , i let master erbury have six of it , indeed he afterward gave me a horse , for which i received not much above forty shillings ; yea i procured him a place in the army , to be chaplaine to major generall skippons regiment , where he had eight shillings a day . object . others say that what i denyed in court , was afterward proved against me , and then i did confesse it . sol. this is a manifest untruth ; those protestations i made the first day of my tryall , i made them also the last day , rejoycing that they were not falsified nor contradicted by any of the witnesses ; but i have spoken to this more largely before . if other slanders shall be cast upon me , i hope you will have so much charity , not to believe reports raised upon me , when i shall be silent in the grave , not able to speake in my owne vindication . this i say without vanity of falshood , i have been kept for these twenty years , from the time i first knew god , from falling into any scandalous evill , but only into those infirmities of unavoydable and dayly incursion , unto which all the godly are subject in the course of their pilgrimage . i love not to speak in my own praise , yet i judge it lawfull when other mens mouthes falsly accuse me , my owne mouth may modestly commend me . as an appendix to what i have already written , i have but a few things to desire the reader to take notice of . . i am informed that there is something blotted out of my last petition , after it went from me , without my knowledge or consent . to assure all the world that i was no malignant , i did put this clause in my fourth petition , that in my place and calling , i should oppose all malignant designs , whether in this or the neighbour nation , that may tend to the ruin● of this common-wealth . somebody blotted out the word [ malignant ] and would thereby hold the world in hand , as if i should engage to oppose the king and scots which are now entred england , which was far from my heart ; i judge it no malignant designe for the scots to defend their nation , and the title of their king , upon the interest of religion , and terms of the covenant , this is an honest and justifiable designe . indeed mr. owen and mr. bond were with me in the tower , and desired me to put it out , but i told them i could not doe it , because i said , though i would be lookt upon as one that would oppose malignant designes , yet i would not be lookt upon as one that would oppose the honest scots , or as if i thought their actings were malignant designes . i sent the petition to sheriffe titchburn , if he observed it , he will justifie me that the word malignant was in the petition . whether they have blotted out any thing more , or put any thing in , god knows ; i am not ashamed to own the petitions . i have given you the substance of them in my vindication . i desire you to take notice also , that by [ common-wealth ] i do not understand the present government , ( i wish that were ruined ) but by common-wealth i understand the body or community of the people of this nation , i shall in my place and calling oppose any malignant designes that may tend to their ruine . . i desire you to take notice , that it is very likely they will not publish the depositions of the witnesses in court , but the private examinations taken from them in private , and patcht together by mr. scet , and captain bishop ; they were not ashamed to produce them and read them in open court , and some of the witnesses had so much honesty left , as to dissavow them in open court . believe nothing ( beloved ) but what was sworn in open court , nor all that neither , for some of the witnesses swore falsly , as i made appear in my defence . i desire the reader to take notice , that there is a lying pamphlet put forth , entituled , a short plea for the common-wealth . in which there are many grosse lies , especially in things which relate to me . it is not fit for me to enter the lists with him ; it becomes not a dying man to write of controversies , which will beget dispute ; therefore i shall not answer the book , though i could easily do it , but only sum up the many lies he relates concerning me ; as in page second edition . he insinuates , he is loath to say it out for shame , or to name me , yet he would deceive the reader , by saying , the meetings of these traytors here , produced the first treaty at the hague . and elsewhere he saith , that i am chief of these traytors ; so that in the lump , he is willing to have the reader believe as if i were at those meetings , when i was at none , neither about the treaty at the hague , nor the treaty at iersey neither , till both were dissolved . indeed alford , adams , far , &c. who were my accusers , were at those meetings from first to last , as they themselves confest ; yet such was the wisedome of mr. scots councell of state , they must be acquitted , and i executed , that know nothing of all those meetings . in page . second edition . he saith , for what mr. love is concerned to say nothing of what preceded titus his going to iersey . here he would insinuate also , as if he could say something of me before titus his going to iersey , which he cannot doe , if he could , he would not have spared me . in page . second edition . that one was sent to titus from my house , and that he returned , and gave an account at my study . the latter part is true , he that was sent to titus did give an account of his journey at my house , but the first part is a lye ; if it were a truth , why would he not name the man , as he doth others ? bu● for fear that every one who heard the tryall at the high court would have bin able to cry shame upon him . major alford was the man was sent to titus to callis , but not in my house ; for potter swore alford was sent when they met at a tavern , yea alford himself swore , that it was william drake that desired him to meet titus at ●allis ; and swore also , that he was never within my house , nor ever spake with me , till after he returned from callis ; yet this impudent fellow , the author of the ●●ea , doth charge me with it . in page . second edition . he saith , that upon the debate of sending a commission , that i should say , come , come , let it goe , which is a grosse lye ; indeed huntington did swear thus in court , but was forsworn ; i was against sending the commission , and gave reasons against sending it , yea capt. far said upon oath , and that times together that the company were against sending it , because private persons had not power to commissionate , &c. in page . second edition . he saith , that a letter wrote with b. on it , brought to capt. potter from bamfield , and said by the party that left it at potters , that it came from mr. love . captain potter did not affirm this in court , indeed he said he thought it came from me , or doctor drake , but for my part i never brought , nor sent letter to his shop in all my life . in page . second edition . he saith , that i made dreadfull protestations , that i never wrote letter to the king , queen , iermin , piercy , titus , massey , &c. that i never received letter from any of them , that i never contributed any money ●or gathered any for the king , &c. or massey and titus , &c. this is a loud lye , it is well there are many witnesses to contradict him ; and surely , if the author of this book had not east off all fear of god , and regard to the good name of his brother , he could not be so impudent , as to affirm that these were my protestations . i never named massey or titus in my protestations , for then i had protested a falshood , ( which i durst not doe ) i did write a letter to massey , and did contribute money to massey and titus , yet my protestations are not contradicted ; for i protested , i writ no letter to the king , queen , church , or state of scotland , in the generall , or to any particular person of the scotish nation . the truth of this i shall stand to . for though i did write and give money to massey , yet my protestation is not falsified , for he is of the english not of the scotish nation . in page . second edition . he saith , that at my examination i made such a deep and generall profession of my innocency , though the proof , and his confession at the court contradicted it , &c. the first part of this speech is true , the latter notoriously false . as to the questions propounded to me , about correspondence with the king , queen , &c. writing a letter to the church of scotland , or sending titus to iersey ; as to these things i said i was innocent , and so i say still . but as for the latter part of his words , that the proof , and my confession at the court contradicted my answer at my examination , that 's abominably false ; though he was not ashamed to say so in the generall , yet he durst not instance in any particular , nor will any other in my life time , whilst i can answer for my selfe . i do affirm this to all the world , that at my examinations i did deny nothing that was true , nor would i confesse any thing that was criminall . and because i am belyed , about my examination before the committee , and may be more abused after i am dead , therefore i am necessitated to discover that jugling and basenesse of mr. scot , and captain bishop , about my examination , which i thought never to have made publique . whiles i was examined before the committee , that pragmaticall fellow captain bishop ( who , i suppose wrote this lying book ) did put in or lines into my examinations , which i never said ; he supposing i would be so mease-mouthed as not to read it , or to put my hand to his for●eries with out any more adoe : but i did , to his shame make him blot out at least lines in my examination , which was but very short ; some of the committee did ingenuously say sometimes , that i did not speak such words as captain bishop did put in . by his abuse of me , who would not be abused by him , i cannot but think how he injured other men . i did refuse to put my hand to it , seeing i was abused by captain bishop , but told them , if they would give me a copy of it , i would subscribe my hand ; but they denyed me a copy , which made me susspect they did not intend to deale fairly with me ; as i found true soone after . about weeks after i was examined , mr. prideaux , and mr. scot came to examine me in the tower ; i still refused to accuse my selfe ; mr. scot shewed me a paper , told me it was the examination taken from my mouth ; he read it to me , when i saw and heard it , i renounced it , told him plainly it was a forged paper , that it was not mine . he replyed , it was that very individuall paper that was written and taken from my mouth ; and that he himself did endorse it with his own hand . to this i reply , whether he endorsed it , or no , i could not say , but i can say , and do affirm , the paper was not mine , and i gave him two evident and undenyable demonstrations that it was not the paper written at my examinations . for , . in that paper there were many lines blotted out , but in this there were none . . in the paper shewed me at the tower was written to this effect , that i should say , i was not present at the reading or hearing of any letters read from scotland , which i never said ; and i did put him in minde , that i refused to answer that question , whether i was present when letters were read ? because ( said i ) then your next question will be , who else was present ? so i must accuse others , which i shall not doe : and then , further , if i should say i was not present , and you could prove that i was present at the hearing of any letters of news from foreign parts , you would taxe me of a falshood , which none shall be able to fasten upon . this did somewhat silence , and satisfie mr. scot , that it was not the paper that was taken at my examination ; wherefore , i beseech the reader not to beleeve any thing that shall come forth , either pretended to be my examination , or the examinations of other men against me , they are but the forgeries and contrivements of mr. scot and capt. bishop . mr. love would have denyed the jurisdiction of the court , had he not remembred what it cost his master charls . he behaved himself exceeding haughtily , prevar●cating uncivilly , &c. elswhere the man speaks more than i did , but here he speaks lesse than i did , in the former part of his speech ; here he saith , i would have denyed the jurisdiction of the court ; if i had not remembred , &c. i confesse i did deny the jurisdiction of the court , and did declare before the court , that they were not a legall court of judicature , to judge me for my life ; that it was my birth-right to be tryed according to the lawes of this land , which was to be by a iury of my neighbourhood , and when they told me they were as a iury , then i replyed , i have liberty by the lawes of this land , to except against of them . though they did deny me a legall tryall , yet a necessity was put upon me to plead to cleare my owne innocency . but the latter part of his speech is notoriously false , i leave my self to be judged by the spectators , whether i did behave my self exceeding haughtily , prevaricating , untivilly , as this man doth accuse me . in page . second edition . he saith , that i did not acknowledge the lawes or authority , by which i was judged , to be the lawes of the land , but that i said in my petition , by [ your lawes ] i am justly condemned , which said he , my brother● master calamy instructed me in , to put me out of all hopes of mercy , that his good tricks , and the rest of his close brethren , might not come to light . this common lyer stumbles upon a truth now and then ; the first part of the words are true , viz. that i did not acknowledge the authority , or lawes , by which i was judged , to be the lawes of the land ; and that i called them [ your lawes , ] this is most true , and for this very reason i called them [ your lawes ] to distinguish them from the lawes of this nation : but the following words are notoriously false ; as first , that i should say in my petition , ( the first he must mean , for the clause [ your lawes ] is not in the other ) by your lawes i am justly condemned , i never said so in that petition . he that will be so shamelesse to falsifie my petitions , which are made so visible , will not be ashamed to belie my words . secondly , to say that master calamy instructed me to call them your lawes , that is false also . thirdly , to say it was that master calamies good tricks might not come to light ; he hath done nothing that he may be ashamed to owne before the sunne . in page second edition . he saith , that when master peters , and col●nel okey spake to me , i railed on them , and called them a company of hereticks , and schismaticks , that the curse of god is on you and will destroy you , i will not have to do with you : this is false also . if this man hath belied others in his booke whom he names , as he hath done me , there is not one true page in all his book ; yet this lying book must be printed by du-gard , printer to the councell of state , forsooth . i see all is not to be taken for truth that comes from that councell . in page second edition . he saith , that mr. love and my confederates ( as hath been proved by the court ) have assumed to themselves a supreme power in authorising by commission , &c. i wonder the man is not ashamed to fasten this on me , who did declare it was an act of high presumption , for private men to take upon them to commissionate ; yea one of the witnesses did positively sweare , that those that met when that commission was read , were against sending the commission , because private men could not give commission ; yea none of the witnesses did sweare , that i assented to this commission , but only huntington , who sware falsly in it self , and contradictorily to the testimony of another witnesse . in page second edition . he hath these words , they have kept massey and titus their agents in scotland , received and gave advice concerning raising parties in england , likewise concerning many arms , and bringing over foraigne souldiers , generalls , shipping , &c. all which mr. love hath held forth to be according to his judgment , conscience , and covenant . if this man were not an atheist , or an antiscripturist , the example of ananias and saphira might make him tremble , lest he should be stricken downe dead , with a lye in his mouth ; did any witnesse , say of me , that ever i gave advice to raise parties in england ? or to bring over foraigne souldiers , generalls , shipping ? yet this false and deceitfull man , will make the world believe , as if this were proved against me ; indeed i declared before the high court , that it was according to my iudgement , conscience , covenant , to desire as as private man , that the king might agree with the scots upon the interest of religion , and tearms of the covenant , rather than joyne in with papists and irish rebells . and this i still stand to as my judgment . these and many other falshoods might be found in this book , if i should make a thorough search into it . he calls it a short plea , but i may call it a long lye ; and it is not for the honour of the present government , to have a common lyer to be a pleader for their common-wealth . having thus finished the third particular , which i desired the reader to take notice of , i now come to a fourth . i desire the reader to take notice of the justice of the men in present power , those men who did send letters to the king , queen , iermin , piercy , who did send titus an agent to iersey , these men must be acquitted , but i , who did not thus , must be condemned and executed . i may aptly apply that latine proverbe , dat veniam corvis , vexat censura columbas ; or else that english proverbe , some men may better steal a horse , than another look over the hedge . . i desire the reader to take notice of the bloody policy of the men in present power , as also of the simplicity and folly of the members of the high court , the politicians that sate at sterne , did make some of the silly members of the high court believe , that to preserve the honour of the state i must be condemned , for two of the high court told me , they must condemne me for the honour of the parlinment ; and if they did condemne me , yet the parliament would pardon me , if i would but petition them for mercy ; by this means they inveagled the high court to passe the bloody sentence of death upon me with the lesse regret of conscience . . i desire all men to take notice , that there hath not been such an eager , furious and unjust prosecution of a ministers blood , since the dayes of queen mary , as there hath been of mine . for , first , although no two witnesse did prove any particular fact that was treasonable by their new acts , yet i must dye . yea , secondly , though the reverend ministers of london , the ministers of kent , and of worcestershire , did petition in my behalf , yet they will have my blood . thirdly , though divers citizens of london , and many of them of their owne party , did petition for me , and so did my owne congregation , and divers other wayes and means used for the preservation of my life , yet so thirsty are they after my blood , that nothing will satisfie them but my death . fourthly , yea , although divers of those who are members of the high court of justice did use their utmost interest to preserve my life , yet all these applications , together with mine and my wifes , are ineffectuall , they rather hearken to the bloody solicitations of a malignant , hereticall , and iesuiticall party , who thirst after my blood , than to the desires of many godly and peaceable minded men . . i desire the reader to take notice , that although the independent ministers did petition for my reprieve ( for which i thank them ) yet they refused to joyn with the presbyterian ministers to petition for my life , unlesse they would do those things which they could not do to save their owne lives ; i say they refused to joyn with them to petition for a pardon , unlesse they would owne the present power , declare against the scots , and such like hard tearms would the independent brethren , tye the presbyterian ministers too , els they would not joyn with them to beg for my life , so that it seems their aime was more at the bringing over the ministers to joyn with the state faction , than out of any ayme to save my life . . i desire the reader to observe , that since the days of queen mary , there hath been no protestant minister so unchristianly dealt withall , as i have been , and received such hard measure , and that from those , who professe religion , as i have done , which i shall plainly evince by undenyable demonstrations . first , they hired one witnesse with vast summes of money , promises of preferment , to betray and insnare me , and bring in evidence against me . secondly , they threatned other of the witnesses with death , if they would not testifie against me . thirdly , they sent severall persons to me to the tower , to discouese and dispute with me , on purpose to intrap and insnare me fourthly , they put up large scaffolds on the first day of my tryall , when the bloody charge was read against me , that the greater number might hear it , and be prejudiced against me , but pulled them down againe , when i was to make my defence in my own justification , that so my defence might be smothered ; then put the scaffolds up againe , when the councell for the common-wealth pleaded against me . yea , thirdly , they took away the writings and books which my notary took in court , that so nothing might come to light , but what pleaseth themselves ; so that they will put in and put out passages about my tryall as shall make most for their advantage , and my prejudice . sixthly , they rejected two of the councellors which themselves had assigned me , that they should not plead for me , because they had not taken the engagement . seventhly , they would not alow mr. hales , who was one of my councell to have an hours time to prepare himself to plead in my case , but he must plead presently or not at all ; although , as i told the court , i never saw master hales till that morning , so could not acquaint him with my case , nor did mr. hales ever see the depositions of the witnesses , yet for all this they would not allow him one dayes time to study my case ; yet it pleased god to assist mr. hales , that he did plead ex tempore , to overthrow the charge , proved it illegall , &c. they were so silenced at , and ashamed of , their illegall proceedings , that after my notary had written a while , they forbade him to write any more , which they never did before ; they were afraid lest mr. hales pleading in my behalfe should come to light . eighthly , they have raised lying and slanderous reports of me , on purpose to kill my name , as well as murder my body . ninthly , whereas i sent colonel fortescue with a petition to cromwell , to desire him to mediate to the house for my life , upon his returne to london with severall letters in my behalfe , they have clapt him close prisoner , would not suffer him to come near me so that i know not what he did in my behalfe ▪ yea , they secured his letters , would not suffer them to be delivered to those to whom they were directed , th●● so there might be no sollicitations for the preservation of my life ; so that all the cost i am at in sending is in effectuall by this means , although it hath already cost me , for two messengers , above one hundred and five pounds , yet the great kindnesse and labour of love the two gentlemen exprest , is never the lesse acceptable to me , although it be not successefull for me . tenthly , although i do not envy the safety , or desire the ruine of others , yet i cannot but take notice of the rage of some men towards me , that i must dye , yet others live , who have been correspondents from the beginning , who have sent letters to the king , queen , iermin , riercy , who sent titus over as an agent to jersy , ( which i never did . ) all this alford , adams , and far , who are my accusers , have done , yet they must be acquitted , and i executed ; i mention not this out of envy to them , i have none in my heart towards them ; i wish their lives , not their deaths ; but the reason why i mention this is , to let the world see why their rage is thus against me , it is not for the merit of my facts , for then they should punish others , who are far more guilty , but it is meerly their rage against my person , and calling , as i am a minister , and because i will not prostitute my conscience to their ambition and usurpation . eleventhly , the high court would not allow the common privilege , to have witnesses for me heard , though i earnestly desired ; i had many witnesses ready in court ▪ who could have testified many things to invalidate and take off the testimony of some of the witnesses , but i could not have that ordinary favour granted me . twelfthly , yea , they have done that to me which was never done to any , viz. they have kept me close prisoner from the th . of august , till the very day of my execution , that none but my wife had leave to come to me , others who got to me came but by stealth and connivance , there is no robber nor murderer at newgate , but after they are condemned , any friends have liberty to come to them , but i must not have the favour which every murderer and robber hath ; will not the righteous lord judge for this ? i doubt not but he wi●l ; ●hey who have shewed judgement without mercy , may find no mercy another day , yet from my heart ▪ beg mercy for them , who would shew no mercy to me ; i pray god forgive them , who would not forgive me . god is my record i do not dye with a revengefull heart , yet i do believe god will , before this generation passe , avenge my blood , and that by some signall providence . i will minde you but of one passage in scripture , and shall conclude , in . chron. . , , , , . king i●ash remembred not the kindnesse which iehoidah the priest had done him , but did slay his sonne , viz. zechariah ; and when zechariah died , he said , the lord look upon it and require it ; then what followes , it is said , it came to passe , as the end of the year , that the hosts of syria came up against ioash , and they came to judah and ierusalem , and destroyed all the princes of the people , and sent the spoyle of them unto the king of damascu● ; but i pray observe what a signall providence of god was in this , for in verse . it is said , the army of the syrians came but with a small company of men , and the lord delivered a very great host into their hand , so that they executed judgment against ioash . for my part , i am no prophet , nor do i pretend to a prophetick spirit , yet this perswasion i have strongly setled upon my heart , now i am a dying , that cromwell and his confederates shall be destroyed , that they shall not dye the common deaths of men ; and my perswasions are , that there are not many years between them and ruine , yea though there were no scots in scotland , nor no king and his army in england , yea i am confident their downfall is at hand ; how it shall be i imagine not , but that it shall be i doubt not . the last part of this appendix was written the of august , the last day but one before my death . this vindication , together with the appendix was made by me , and written with my own hand , so i testifie christopher love . from the tower of london , august . . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a e- sam. . & ▪ . kings 〈◊〉 per to●u● . potter the first witnesse that came in against me . alford the second witnesse . huntington the d. witness . baines the th . witness . major adams the th . witness . mr. jaquell the th . witnesse . mr. b●rton the th , witnesse captain fa● the th . witnesse . captain potter the first witness ▪ major alford the d . witness . major huntington he d. witness , leiutenant colonell baines the th . witness . major adams the th . vvitness , mr. jaquell the th . witne●e . co● . ●arton the ●● . witness● captain f●● the th . wi●ness● . chron. . . jer. . , , . first rea●on may be by comparing t●is with the first war . amos . . hab. . . heb. . . first lye , second lye third lye . fourth lye . fifth lye . sixth lye . seventh lye . in page ●o second edition . the eighth lye . the ninth lye . the tenth lye . the eleventh lye . the tryals and condemnation of lionel anderson, alias munson, william russel, alias napper, charles parris, alias parry, henry starkey, james corker, and william marshal, for high treason, as romish priests, upon the statute of . eliz. cap. together with the tryal of alexander lumsden, a scotchman, and the arraignment of david joseph kemish for the same offence : at the sessions of oyer and terminer in the old-baily, on saturday, january th, . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the tryals and condemnation of lionel anderson, alias munson, william russel, alias napper, charles parris, alias parry, henry starkey, james corker, and william marshal, for high treason, as romish priests, upon the statute of . eliz. cap. together with the tryal of alexander lumsden, a scotchman, and the arraignment of david joseph kemish for the same offence : at the sessions of oyer and terminer in the old-baily, on saturday, january th, . anderson, lionel, d. , defendant. russel, william, defendant. parris, charles, defendant. starkey, henry, defendant. lumsden, alexander, defendant. kemish, david joseph, defendant. marshall, william, defendant. corker, james maurus, - , defendant. england and wales. court of oyer and terminer and gaol delivery (london and middlesex). [ ], p. printed for thomas collins and john starkey ..., london : . reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng anderson, lionel, d. . russel, william. parris, charles. starkey, henry. lumsden, alexander. kemish, david joseph. marshall, william. corker, james maurus, - . trials (treason) -- england. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread - emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the tryals and condemnation of lionel anderson , alias munson , william russel , alias napper , charles parris , alias parry , henry starkey , james corker , and william marshal , for high treason , as romish priests , upon the statute of . eliz. cap. . together with the tryal of alexander lumsden a scotchman , and the arraignment of david joseph kemish for the same offence . at the sessions of oyer and terminer in the old-baily , on saturday january th . . published by authority . london , printed for thomas collins and john starkey book-sellers in fleet-street near temple-bar , . the tryals , &c. on saturday the th of january , . at the sessions-house in the old-bayley , by vertue of his majesties commission of oyer and terminer and goal-delivery of newgate , for the county of middlesex and city of london , the persons hereafter named were arraigned and tryed . and after the usual proclamation for attendance was made , the court proceeded in this manner : cl. of the crown . keeper , set david joseph kemish to the bar , ( which was done . ) david joseph kemish , hold up thy hand , ( which he did . ) thou standest indicted by the name of david joseph kemish of the parish of st. giles's in the fields , in the county of middlesex , clerk , for that thou being born within the dominions of our soveraign lord the king , and being a priest , made and ordained by authority derived from the see of rome , after the feast of the nativity of st. john baptist , in the first year of the reign of queen elizabeth , and before the th of november , in the thirtieth year of the reign of our soveraign lord the king that now is , the laws and statutes of this kingdom of england not regarding , nor the penalties in the same contained any ways fearing , the said th day of november , in the thirtieth year of the king aforesaid , at the parish of st. giles's in the fields , in the county of middlesex aforesaid , traiterously , and as a false traytor of our soveraign lord the king , thou wast and didst remain and abide against the form of the statute in this case made and provided , and against the peace of our soveraign lord the king his crown and dignity . how sayest thou , david joseph kemish , art thou guilty of this high treason whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? kemish . not guilty . cl. of the cr. culprit , how wilt thou be tryed ? kemish . by god and my country . cl. of cr. god send thee a good deliverance . kemish . i cannot speak , i am not able to stand upon my legs a quarter of an hour . l. c. j. what does he say ? capt. richardson . he says he is so ill and weak he is not able to stand . l. c. j. then he must have a stool . kemish . i am not able to speak in my own defence , and i have had no time to prepare my self . l. c. j. captain , he shall speak softly to you ; and you shall report it to the court again . capt. richardson . you may speak softly to me , and i will give an account what you say . l. c. j. how will he be tryed ? ask him . kemish . i would desire my tryal might be deferr'd till i be in a condition to answer for my self . l. c. j. what say you , brothers , i think his request is very reasonable , he appears not to be in a condition of taking his tryal now ; and mr. attorney is willing he should be set aside till next sessions . mr. att. gen. 't is , i think , very fit , if your lordships please . mr. just . dolben . he must plead first . have you recorded his plea ? cl. of cr. yes , 't is recorded . l. c. j. why then look you captain richardson , you must take him back , the court does think fit , and mr. attorney does think fit , by reason of his extraordinary ●nfirmity , that it is not seasonable to try him now . and that the world may not say we are grown barbarous and inhumane , we are all contented he should be set by . therefore let him be returned back , and in the mean time you must take care that he have that reasonable looking to as is fit for a man in his condition to have . l. c. baron . acquaint him with what the court says to you . capt. richardson . i will , my lord. m. att. gen. my lord , i desire that the judges may declare their opinion in it . l. c. j. they have done so already , we do all consent to it . therefore take him , and go get him a bed . cl. of the cr. set william russel , alias napper , to the bar. who was arraigned upon an indictment of the same form , only the day of the fact differing , which was laid to be the th of november , in car. . to which he likewise pleaded , not guilty , and put himself upon the country . cl. of the cr. set henry starkey to the bar. whose indictment was the same , only the time differing , which was the th of january , car. . and he also pleaded , not guilty , and put himself upon the country . cl. of the cr. set william marshal to the bar. who being arraigned upon a like indictment , and the time mentioned to be the th of january , car. . and being asked , whether guilty , or not guilty , answered thus : marshal . my lord , i do find by this indictment , that i am arraigned for the same crime for which i was tryed before : i do humbly desire to know , whether , according to law , i can be tryed twice for the same fact ? lord ch. j. no , according to the law you cannot be tryed twice for the same fact , nor are you ; for before you were indicted for having an hand in the great conspiracy , for being a conspirator in the plot , and now you are tryed for being a priest , and abiding in england . marshall . i was tryed before your lordship as a traytor . lord ch. j. you were so . marshall . now i am tryed for a priest . lord ch. j. which is another treason . marshall . if i am tryed for a priest , i conceive i cannot be tryed unless as a criminal priest : and i conceive i cannot be tryed as a criminal priest , unless it be as a priest that hath had some attempt or design against the government . lord ch. j. nay , you mistake there ; there may be priests that have had no hand in the plot ; if you were acquitted for the plot , yet you remain a priest still . do you suppose then that every priest had a hand in the plot ? marshall . my lord , i humbly conceive , that priesthood as priesthood is no crime at all . lord ch. j. that is no crime at all . mr. just . dolben . come , you must plead without more a do : and you must not use any more speeches . lord ch. j. you must be governed in all things by the direction of the court. marshall . i do submit to the direction of this honourable bench ; but , my lord , give me leave to say , i suppose i am indicted upon . eliz. now if it be made appear , that according to that statute priesthood alone is not treason — mr. just . dolben . then you must speak it afterwards , but now you must plead . marshall . but if it be at least made doubtful , then it becomes a matter of law , and i have just occasion to insist upon it , and pray counsel . mr. just dolben . you must plead to the indictment first . marshall . why can i ask counsel after plea pleaded ? lord ch. j. yes , you may if matter of law arise : and you may have counsel as to that matter . mr. just . atkins . the court is of counsel for you in such a case . lord ch. baron . but you must plead first . mr. just . pemberton . you cannot be heard at all till you have pleaded to the indictment . l. c. j. pray take the directions of the court. marshall . i have a great deal of reason to submit to this honourable court , that hath been so full of mercy and clemency , and therefore i do answer , that i am not guilty . cl. of cr. how wilt thou be tryed ? marshall . by the king and my countrey . l. c. j. no , no , that will not do . marshall . by god and my countrey . cl. of cr. god send thee good deliverance . set alexander lumsden to the bar. whose indictment being of the same nature , only reciting the fact to be . maii . car. di . he pleaded , not guilty , and put himself upon the countrey . cl. of cr. set james corker to the bar ; who was also arraigned for the same treason done upon the . octobr. . car. di . and being asked , whether guilty or not guilty , answered in these words . corker . my lord , i humbly beg the judgment of the court ; i humbly conceive , my lord , i have been already tryed and acquitted for this crime . l. c. j. look you , that hath been over-ruled already in the case of marshall just now , who is in the same condition ; you are not now tryed for the same fact for which you were tryed before . corker . my lord , i suppose there is something particular in my case : i was expresly indicted as clerk , one that received orders from the see of rome . mr. just . pemberton . his addition was clerk , that is all . l. c. j. but you were not charged in that indictment for this fact. corker . my lord , i pleaded to that indictment , under that qualification of clerk. l. c. j. so men do when they say in the indictment , labourer , plead to it in that qualification , but if a man plead by the name of gent. the question is not whether he be a gent. or no , but whether he be guilty of the fact he is indicted for ; and the question in your case was not whether you were clerk or were not clerk , but whether you had a hand in the plot or no. mr. just . atkins . if the jury had found you a priest at that time , it had been a void finding more than they were to inquire of . mr. belwood . he was told so at that time he was not tryed for a priest . mr. just . ellis . after you have pleaded , then you may urge what you have to say . corker . then i say , i am not guilty . and he put himself upon the countrey . cl. of cr. set lionel anderson , alias munson to the bar. whose indictment was for being a priest , and abiding here the jan. car. . and he pleaded not guilty , and put himself upon his country . cl. of cr. set charles parris alias parry to the bar , whose indictment was of the same nature , for abiding here maij. car. . and he also pleaded not guilty , and put himself upon the countrey . cl. of cr. set all the prisoners to the bar that are to be tryed . william russel , henry starkey , william marshall , alexander lumsden , james corker , lionel anderson , and charles parry . captain richardson . they are all on . russel . my lord , i have been confined , i have not had my liberty till within these two or three days . l. c. j. what then ? russel . i have not had my friends to come to me , to advise me upon what account i was to be tryed . capt. richardson . he says , he wanted his friends to advise for what he was to be tryed . l. c. j. why , he knows he is to be tryed for a popish priest . capt. richardson . here is one says he is sick . l. c. j. who is that ? capt. richardson . 't is anderson . mr. j. pemberton . then he must have a chair to sit down on . l. c. j. wee 'l try him first that is sick . then the prisoners were called to their challenges , and the jury of middlesex appearing upon their summons , and none of them being excepted against , the twelve that were first called and sworn , were the gentlemen after named . jury . john bradshaw . lawrence wood. matthew bateman . john vyner . francis mayo . martin james . anthony hall. samuel jewel . richard bealing . thomas hall. richard bromfield , and samuel lynne . then they were numbred , and proclamation for information in usual manner was made . l. c. j. come , begin with the sick-man anderson ; and set away the rest . cl. of cr. lionel anderson , hold up thy hand . you that are sworn look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause . he stands indicted by the name of lionel anderson , &c. upon this indictment he hath been arraigned , and thereunto hath pleaded , not guilty ; and for his tryal hath put himself upon god and his countrey , which country you are . your charge is to enquire , whether he be guilty , &c. then roger belwood esq ; of council for the king in this cause , opened the indictment . mr. belwood . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . the prisoner at the bar , lionel anderson , alias munson , stands indicted for high treason , and it is alledged in the indictment , that he being born within the kings dominions , and made a priest , and having received orders by pretended authority , from the see of rome , he did the th . day of january last come into the kingdom of england , that is , as 't is laid , in the parish of st. giles in the fields in this county ; and there he did abide contrary to the form of the statute . and this is laid to be traiterously done . to this he hath pleaded not guilty , and we are to prove it upon him by the kings evidence , whom we are now to call . anderson . my lord , for my staying in the kingdom , i had the kings express command , and an order from the council-board in the year . ) they ordered mr. peter welsh , and my self , and some more to stay , for writing against the temporal power of the pope , for the power of the king of england against the court of rome . after this plot was discovered , i came to the king , being afraid of being involved in the general calamity . so i came to the king , and said , sir , i desire to know what i may do . l. c. j. do , why ? anderson . good my lord hear me out . my lord privy seal brought me an order from the council board , and so 't is recorded , and i think dr. oates will be so just to me , as to acknowledge that he hath seen it , and this is all that i have to say . l. c. j. if you have an order from the council to protect you , you must apply your self elsewhere ; our business is to try the single issue , whether you have offended against the law. anderson . my lord , i that am but a poor single individuum , who am born with an innate and implicit obedience to my king , judge whether it lies in my power to dispute with him and his council , whether they can do this or no , or that i must obey the kings command . mr. belwood . this is not a time for him now to insist on this matter . l. c. j. reserve your self till the kings counsel have done , and the evidence given . mr. just . jones . let him save his speech till such time as he comes to answer for himself . l. c. j. give him a chair , if he be not able to stand . then sir john keiling , one of the kings learned counsel in the law , pursued the charge thus , sir john keiling . may it please your lordship and you gentlemen of the jury , lionel anderson otherwise munson the prisoner at the bar , stands indicted here , for that he being a subject born within the dominions of the king , hath taken orders from the see of rome , and hath contrary to the law come into england , and stayed here as a traytor ; for this treason he is indicted , and the indictment is grounded upon the statute of the th . eliz. a statute made almost a hundred years since , and it was upon great occasion ; for it tells you plainly , that these priests that had taken orders from the see of rome , were not only busie in seducing and perverting the kings subjects to the romish superstition , but they had made many attempts upon the government , raising sedition and , rebellion and levying of war against their soveraign , which is evident from the preamble of the statute it self . and it is true , the lenity and mildness of our princes hath in a great measure let this statute lye asleep : they have not been willing to execute the severity of the law upon all occasions at all times ; but the occasion being renewed at this time , for the remedying of which , this statute was principally made , ( that is to say , raising seditions , and commotions , and rebellion against the king , the particulars of which i shall not inlarge upon it hath been notorious in this place ) that is the reason of the present prosecution of these persons . who have not been contented to enjoy the indulgence of our princes , ( which hath been extended to them , notwithstanding all their former numerous affronts that they have given ) but have rais'd new commotions , and made attempts upon the person of our king , and of our government , and that is the occasion upon which these persons come to be tryed . it is not purely ( tho' that is a main ingredient ) that they are tryed quatenus priests , but as ordained by the see of rome , and coming into england and abiding here . for a priest , if he be ordained by the see of rome , if he comes not here , can do no hurt ; but it is his coming and abiding here , that makes him the subject of this punishment , and hath occasioned this mans prosecution . now my lord , we shall prove that this anderson alias munson hath taken orders from the see of rome , whose authority constituted him a priest , and this we shall prove by several instances and steps ; and then we doubt not but you will take that care for the preservation of the government , and for the peace and quiet of the nation , which becomes you , and give a verdict according as your evidence shall lead you . then sir george strode , the kings serjeant at law , managed the evidence . mr. ser. strode . my lord , we shall call our evidence . the fact is this , that this person being a subject of the kings , and having received orders from the see of rome , that is , being a romish priest , did come and abide here contrary to the statute ; not that his priesthood is the crime , no t is his being a subject of the kings , and owning an authority from abroad , and thereby denying the authority of his own soveraign . to prove this , we shall call dr. oates , mr. bedlow , mr. dangerfield , and mr. prance , ( who were all sworn . ) set up mr. dangerfield first . mr. dangerfield , tell my lord and the jury what you know of the prisoner at the bar , mr. anderson . mr. dangerfield . what i do know against him ? l. c. j. yes , for being a priest . mr. dangerfield . what , that particularly ? l. c. j. yes , that particularly . mr. dangerfield . my lord , about the latter end of may , or beginning of june , when i was a prisoner for debt in the kings-bench , this person took occasion to speak privately to me , and desired me to go into his room : he told me he had received a letter from my lady powis , and that letter was burnt . but the next letter that came from my lady powis , he would shew it me . and he did so ; and the contents of the letter was , as near as i can remember , just thus : sir , you must desire willoughby to scour his kettle ; which was , to confess and receive the sacrament , to be true to the cause . a little after , that was saturday , and i think it was the next day , being sunday , i went into mr. andersons , aliàs munson's chamber , and there i went to confession , and received absolution . and he sent me to another person to receive the sacrament , who was saying mass at that time . and when i had received the sacrament and returned to him again , he did tell me , that he , as a priest , did give me free toleration to go and be drunk , and drink with one stroude ; and i asked him , being something scrupulous in the matter , whether i might lawfully do it , having but just received the sacrament ? he told me , yes , he gave me authority so to do , being for the good of the cause . l. c. j. were you a papist then ? mr. dangerfield . yes , i was . mr. just . atkins . you went to confession to him , and received absolution ? mr. belwood . what was the good of the cause that he meant ? mr. serj. strode . if you please , give an account of the whole thing . mr. dangerfield . that was , as i was employed in a general affair for the catholicks : for i was to use my endeavour to bring over stroud to be a witness for the lords in the tower , concerning the plot , and to invalidate mr. bedloe's testimony . anderson . here i am upon my life and death ; all the world knows me , that hath heard of my name — mr. just . pemberton . pray make no speeches , if you will ask any questions you may . anderson . no , i wont . i wish that all the punishment of hell and damnation may come upon me , if i ever opened my mouth to this rogue for one farthing , or about any business in the world. l. c. j. you must not call him rogue in open court. let us have that respect shewn us that is fitting , and so shall you have , but this language we must not suffer . anderson . in the first place , i will bring all the prisoners in the kings-bench prison to testifie , that i desired to be removed to newgate , for here was the greatest rogue come in that was in england . mr. just . pemberton . this must not be suffered . l. c. j. if you will ask him any questions , you may . anderson . well , come mr. dangerfield , in the first place , who ever saw you with me ? 't is impossible but some body must see you with me , if we were together , as you say . mr. dangerfield . my lord , there is one hill , that is now a prisoner in the kings-bench , that saw me several times go into his chamber . l. c. j. was there any body by when you confess'd your self to him ? mr. just . dolben . confessions use to be in secret . mr. dangerfield . no , my lord , he was not in the chamber , neither was it reasonable he should , but he saw me go in often . anderson . surely , mr. dangerfield , you and i could not be so well acquainted , but somebody or other must take notice , that we spoke together sometimes . now if you can produce any one body that will testifie it , i will be bound to be hang'd , and say no more . mr. just . atkins . he is not bound to bring witnesses to this purpose . he swears the fact charged upon you positively . mr. dangerfield . this hill , my lord , that is in the kings-bench , hath made oath of it before mr. justice foster . anderson . but , my lord , this one thing i have to say against this man. there is a statute made since the king 's most happy restauration , enumerating treasons , which says , that all treasons shall be as in that act : and further adds , that none shall be convicted of treason , but by two lawful and credible witnesses . now the wisdom of our legislators , having an eye to future safety and past practices , does provide , that no one shall suffer as a traytor , but one that is by good and credible testimony convicted of treason . l. c. j. pray speak out , sir , for i cannot hear you . anderson . my lord , i understand the meaning applicable to me thus , that since the statute does use the word ( credible ) as well as legal , it does judge that both would be very necessary . now that he is not a credible witness i can prove — l. c. j. why is he not credible ? certainly if he be legal he is credible . anderson . no , my lord , that does not follow . first the — mr. recorder . 't is not his time to make this sort of defence . mr. just . dolben . he should have done it before the witness was sworn , if he would except against his testimony . l. c. j. but why is he not a good witness , pray ? anderson . my lord , a man pilloried twice , that hath broke prison once , and committed other hainous offences — l. c. j. where is the record of any of this ? anderson . my lord , i 'le tell you how i prove it . that worthy gentleman , col. mansel , whom this villain would have involved in — l. c. j. you must not do thus , abuse persons with words without proof . mr. just . pemberton . he must not be suffered so to do . anderson . my lord , i will do so no more , indulge a little to my innocency and infirmity . l. c. j. you don't seem to have so much infirmity upon you . anderson . col. mansel , when this gentleman was the kings evidence , as he is now , brought in the record of this gentlemans being pilloried , and the council did not think fit to commit col. mansel , but committed him . l. c. j. have you that record here ? anderson . i have not . sir john keiling . we pray we may go on then . mr. serj. strode . set up dr. oates . dr. oates , will you tell what you know of this matter . dr. oates . my lord , he is a priest . i can in sincerity say it . i have heard him say mass my self . l. c. j. where ? anderson . 't is very true , i acknowledge i did it . but my lord i will shew you . mass is no proof of a priest : for first the statute makes a distinction of priests — dr. oates . he does execute the office of a priest ; for i have been at confession with him as a priest , and have seen him consecrate the sacrament , and i have seen his letters of orders as a priest . l. c. j. did he wear the habit of a priest ? dr. oates . yes , at mass . mr. belwood . pray , sir , are you sure you saw his orders as a priest ? dr. oates . yes , i did . l. c. j. did he shew you the letters of his orders ? dr. oates . yes , he did . l. c. j. of what order is he ? dr. oates . a dominican-fryer he is . l. c. j. what can you say to that ? anderson . i can say enough ; but what can i say against the king's evidence ? your lordship sees this makes a very fine jingle , but there is no proof of it . l. c. j. we can go no further than the evidence . he says , you are a dominican-fryer : that he heard you say mass : that he saw you consecrate the sacrament . and i am sure you allow none but a priest to do that . anderson . i understand by the laws of england , that i am tryed upon a statute which makes priesthood a crime . now i will ask mr. oates a question : mr. oates , can you prove , that i received orders from the see of rome ? you are to prove by this statute three things against me . i am tryed upon a penal statute , which ought to be construed most in favour of the prisoner . mr. just . pemberton , ask him any questions , if you will , but this is not your time for arguing . l. c. j. look you , we must do with you as we have done with others , and will do with the rest . if you mean that this statute should never have any effect , that is , that the priests shall not be convicted as such , unless we can produce witnesses , that saw them take orders , then you have avoided all the statute ; but if so be it be plainly proved , that you have done the acts of a priest , those that none are allow'd of to do , or undertake to do , but a priest , is not this a satisfaction , and a plain one too , to your self and all the world , that this issue , whether you are a priest , or not a priest , is well proved in the affirmative . dr. oates . my lord , i saw his letters of orders . anderson . my lord chief justice , i would speak a little to what you say . mr. just . pemberton . look you , sir , you must not have such liberty as this granted to you . you may , if you will , ask questions , but it is not your time to dispute . mr. just . jones . you must not invert the order of tryals . when a witness is called , he must give his evidence . if you will ask him any questions you may do it . but if you will observe any thing , you have time to do it when the kings witnesses are all heard . mr. just . atkins . dr. oates , the prisoner did not understand sure what you said . did not he confess to you he had orders from rome . dr. oates . yes , he did confess so . l. c. j. you confessed it your self . anderson . my lord , how comes it to pass , that i did not come here in a yellow coat , and was not arraigned for a fool ? if i am a priest , that i should tell him i was such an one . l. c. j. nay , i can't tell , because you did not put it on . if you would ask him any questions , do . anderson . yes , whether you do know me to be an englishman ? and whether you saw me take orders from the see of rome ? dr. oates . you said you were an englishman , and a gentleman , and the son of an english gentleman . l. c. j. do you deny you are an englishman ? anderson . i am not , nor no man is to be tryed upon a presumption ; 't is but a conceit in law , and penal laws are to be taken strictly in favour of the prisoner . l. c. j. me-thinks you speak very like an englishman ? mr. belwood . my lord , we call now mr. bedloe . you know the question , what it is sir , concerning the prisoners being a priest . mr. bedloe . he is a priest , and an englishman , if his mother was honest , and he honestly born ; for he is mr. andersons son of oxfordshire , as i was told . l. c. j. but what say you to him , as to his being a priest . mr. bedloe . i have heard him say mass . l. c. j. did you ever receive the sacrament from him ? mr. bedloe . never . but i have seen him administer the sacrament , and he was in a priests habit . l. c. j. where ? mr. bedloe . i think it was at the venetian residents ; i am sure it was at some of the embassadors houses . anderson . this matter is so unlikely , i know not what to say to it . mr. just . pemberton . will you ask him any questions ? anderson . upon my salvation i never saw him before . mr. just . dolben . it is a strange thing , that you should take upon you to say upon your salvation you never saw him . how many might come into a room , and you not see them while you are at mass ? l. c. j. he might see you , tho' you did not see him . he might come in , and you not see him . mr. just . atkins . is that any argument , or any thing to the purpose , or does that contradict the evidence ? does the minister , or ought he to know all his congregation whilest he is in preaching ? anderson . i never saw him , i say . my lord , i 'le give you but one argument , which is called argumentum congruentiae . mr. just . jones . will you ask him any questions ? anderson . to what purpose will it be for me to ask him ? mr. bedloe . when he was first taken i was not stirring , but while i was making ready , they told me , there was one suspected to be a priest . i heard him speak in the next room , and i knew his voice , and said , that is mr. anderson . i presently knew his tongue before i saw him . l. c. j. you knew him very well then ? mr. bedloe . i never had any great converse with the man : when he was taken , they asked me , if i knew any thing of this man about the plot ? i told them , no ; but he was in orders from the church of rome : for i heard him say mass at such a place . he told me , said he , i have been in orders , but i revok'd them , and turned protestant . mr. belwood . set up mr. prance . pray , sir , tell what you know . mr. prance . my lord , i have heard him say mass several times at wild-house , and he hath given the sacrament there , and i have seen him take confessions — l. c. j. how often ? mr. prance . several times . l. c. j. then you know him very well ? mr. prance . yes , very well . anderson . i never saw him in my life . l. c. j. but he hath seen you . anderson . my lord chief justice , i will bring witnesses to prove , that i never did say mass at wild-house , nor went to the chappel : i was an excommunicated man , for writing for the king 's temporal power against the pope . l. c. j. how long have you known him ? mr. prance . seven years . l. c. j. how often have you seen him say mass ? mr. prance . a dozen times . anderson . it may seem strange that i should have the impudence to deny what this worthy gentleman says . mr. prance dare you say you know me ? l. c. j. why , were you never there ? mr. just . jones . well , well , will you ask him any questions ? anderson . who did i give the sacrament to ? mr. prance . a whole rail-full hath been at the sacrament at a time , several people i have seen receive it from him . l. c. j. did he deliver the sacrament to you ? mr. prance . no , he did not , i commonly received at somerset-house . mr. serj. strode . we have done , my lord. mr. just . jones . the kings counsel have done with their evidence , and now you may say what you will. anderson . my lord chief justice , may i speak now ? l. c. j. yes , you may . anderson . my lord , all the world knows me , and i am known to most of the dignified clergy in england : my lord bishop of london , and dr. lloyd , and the bishop of durham sent to me to tell me , that if they knew of my tryal they would be here . my lord , i have lain under an ill censure for scribing and writing against the temporal power of the church of rome . i never said mass in any popish church , i am confident , these ten years : that i have said mass , i won't deny . i would not tell a lye to save my own life , nay , nor would i tell a lye to take away the life of the greatest villain upon earth . but , my lord , i protest there is not one word true that hath been sworn against me , but what dr. oates hath said concerning my saying mass . oh! my lord , i would not deny it if i were to be hang'd presently , and is not that a great evidence of my innocence and sincerity . but this does not prove that i am guilty of what i am accused for ; for i am indicted upon a penal statute , and three things must be proved strictly to bring me within that law ; first , that i am an englishman — l. c. j. 't is proved you are an oxfordshire man. anderson . no , my father is lincolnshire , and my lord chief baron knows him . lord chief baron . i do know a gentleman of that name there . mr. bedlow . i was told he was oxfordshire . mr. just . dolben . he speaks it himself to be an englishman . all the world knows it by your speech . anderson . i know my father is so . l. c. j. why do you deny it your self ? anderson . 't is one thing to deny it , and another thing to have it proved so . i am not to prove it , they are . l. c. j. he says you are so . anderson . he talks like a parrot : these things are to be proved strictly ; no mans life is to be taken away by presumption , which is but a conceit in law , and ought not to overthrow that maxim of law , that penal laws ought to be taken most strictly in favour of the prisoner , and i ought to be proved ad literam within the law , and that according to the statute made since his majesties happy restauration , by two lawful witnesses , and not only by two lawful , but by two credible witnesses too . and i suppose the gentlemen of the jury being apprized of this my exception , if they will take this for truth 〈◊〉 these men say , whom yet perhaps they would not trust for 〈…〉 ●heir shops , they do as it were wage the law , and take it upon their consciences , that what these men say is true . l. c. j. so they do . mr. just . dolben . if these things are not well proved , nothing will be proved . mr. just . atkins . have you any witnesses that you would call ? mr. just . pemberton . if you will call any , you may . anderson . how shall i call them , when i did not know of my tryal . mr. recorder . if you will send for any witnesses , the court will stay , if they be to any thing material . anderson . my lord , i have against this gentleman mr. dangerfield almost all the prisoners of the kings bench for witnesses . l. c. j. call them , and name them . anderson . mr. adderly , mr. puller , who can say that i never drunk a pot of ale with this man while he was there . l. c. j. who would you send for ? anderson . those persons , to prove that i had a grudge and prejudice against this man , and that i desired to be removed to newgate for that very reason . mr. just . dolben . but the question is , whether you be a priest , or no ? and you can't send for any one , that knows you , but will say , that he hath taken you for a priest all along . anderson . but still 't is but a presumption , not a proof . mr. just . dolben . the jury is to be judge of that , how far that goes . l. c. j. what do you expect for proof ? do you imagine there should be no proof to convict you upon that statute , unless we produce some witnesses that actually saw you take orders ? anderson . yes , i suppose so , my lord , because penal statutes are to be taken strictly . l. c. j. look you then , how vain would you make a statute of england , the laws of your countrey ? how idle a thing were it to expect any possibility of proof , such as to convict a priest , if this be the interpretation of the law , that no man should be convicted by a jury upon this statute , but one against whom two witnesses should swear they saw him take orders ? where can we find such a witness ? anderson . admit that this law were thus evaded , yet there would be no inconvenience , and i will prove it to your lordship by authority . it was the opinon of all the judges , delivered about nine years agoe to the king and council , upon a question about laws against the romish recusants , they all agreed , that this law was only made in terrorem . mr. j. pemb. look you sir , you must not talk so , it is not to be permitted . mr. j. dolben . will you go to arraign the judges here ? l. c. j. no , no , the kings counsell did very honestly and prudently upon that matter , for said sir john keiling , 't is very true , our kings have not since this law was made , put the statute in execution unto rigor , till you your selves occasioned it : but still the law was a good law , and absolutely necessary at its making , as necessary as the preservation of the queens life , and the quiet of her dominions ; and now 't is become as necessary for the preservation of the protestant religion , which all your arts are employed to undermine ; and more necessary again , for the preservation of our kings life , against which your contrivances are so bent . mr. j. pemb. do you think that you shall be heard here to dispute against the law , and say it was no matter for the law , it is a void law , and scandalize the judges , that they gave it for their opinion , that it was only in terrorem ? anderson . no , i dispute for the law. mr. j. pemb. you must employ your time otherwise if you intend to be heard , anderson . then this is that i require , i desire these things may be proved , first that i am an englishman , and then that i took orders from rome , and then that i abode here contrary to the statute , which things in this penal statute must be proved . l. c. j. you have upon the matter proved the first your self in your appeal to my lord chief baron , that he knew your father , who is a lincolnshire man. anderson . i might be bred and born beyond sea , tho my father was so . l. c. j. if you will give no proof to the contrary , a little proof will serve the jurys turn , hearing you speak , and knowing your father was a lincolnshire gentleman . anderson . no negative can be sworn , they must prove the affirmative . l c. j. that will turn the proof upon you to the contrary . mr. j. atkins . a reasonable proof against you , with such probability , will put it upon you to disprove it . mr. j. pemb. look you mr. anderson , if you have any witnesses to call for , or send for , the court will give you leave to stand by a little and send for them ; but if you continue to argue in this manner , the court will give their directions to the jury . l. c. j. but mr. anderson , the court will do you all the justice that can be expected . if you have any material witnesses to be sent for , the court will have patience till they come ; but then you must be sure they are material witnesses , for we will not go to loose time upon a bare surmise . if it be only to prove this negative , that mr. dangerfield was never in your company in the kings-bench , it will signify nothing , for there are three witnesses without him . mr. j. pemb. have you any witnesses to prove that you were born beyond sea , or any thing that is material , we will stay for them . mr. j. ellys . there is nothing now in question , but whether you be an englishman and a priest ; and if you can prove that you are not so , you say well . but i think you deny not now but that you are a priest , only you would have us prove that you are an englishman . your speech betrays you , and there is so much evidence against you , that i have not heard in any case as i know of . and all your witnesses will be to little purpose . anderson . only this i desire to observe , that i have been a man always countenanced by the best of kings , and his privy council ; and if the parliament had not been dissolved , i had been protected by the parliament : now i say , if your lordships think me worthy of any consideration ( as i have been a man that have given several testimonies of my loyalty , and obedience to the government ) i desire your lordships would please to stay till you know the kings pleasure . l. c. j. you know where you must apply your self for that , we are barely upon our oaths , and so is the jury too , to try the fact , whether you be a priest ; and this i will tell you , and i must say to you , i dare appeal to your own conscience , whether this issue , your being a romish priest , is not as plainly and evidently proved , to the satisfaction of all mankind , as any thing can be ? anderson . but 't is all by presumption still . l. c. j. well , gentlemen of the jury , the matter that he insists upon , are two things ; first , says he , you have not proved me to be an englishman , and yet at the same time he appeals to such as knew his father , to be an english gentleman ; and his language , his tongue betrays him . 't is true , some kind of evidence is to be given , that he is an englishman , he himself tels you , that he is born of english parents ; but 't is a forreign matter , that he should be born beyond sea. and if it were so really , then it comes on his side , if he can produce any witness he says something , otherwise we leave it to you , whether you are not satisfied in your consciences , by hearing him speak , and understanding who his father was , that he is an englishman . the next thing is for his being a priest : i do not know , nor can there be expected a plainer proof than this that hath been given , because he doth those acts which none but a priest amongst them does ; he says mass , he consecrates the sacrament , he takes confession , he gives absolution , and all this proved by four witnesses . anderson . that the clerk does at mass , give absolution . l. c. j. does , or can any but a priest absolve ? d. oates . my lord , the clerk , he that serves at mass at that time , gives pro forma absolution to the priest , without which , the priest cannot approach to the altar , after he hath made a general confession for the whole congregation , the clerk absolves the priest , that he may absolve the congregation . l. c. j. well , the fact is plain upon you , we must never expect to convict a priest upon this statute , if such proof is not sufficient . mr. j. dolben . he does acknowledge that doctor oates hath heard him say mass . l. c. j. go on to the next . mr. belwood . the next we will try , shall be james corker , with whom the jury was charged as with the other . mr. belwood . may it please your lordship , and you gentleman of the jury ; james corker , the prisoner at the bar , stands indicted for high treason , for that being born within the kings dominions , and made a priest by authority from the see of rome , did traiterously come and abide in england , contrary to the law. to this he hath pleaded not guilty . l. c. j. well , call your witnesses . mr. serj. strode . doctor oates , mr. bedloe , and mr. praunce , ( who were all sworn ) doctor oates , pray tell my lord , and these gentlemen , what you know of this mr. corkers being a priest . dr. oates . my lord , he hath said mass at somerset-house , and before the proclamation and declaration in . made against the catholicks , he was one of the queens priests , he is a benedictine monk , and he hath said mass at somerset-house ; and i have heard him say mass at the savoy . l. c. j. in a priests habit ? dr. oates . yes , i have seen him in a monks habit. corker . when ? l. c. j. have you ever seen him give the sacrament ? dr. oates . yes , i received the sacrament from him my self . l. c. j. where ? dr. oates . in the savoy . l. c. j. did he consecrate the sacrament ? dr. oates . not that that i received , i cannot say whether he did or no. l. c. j. do any administer the sacrament but priests ? dr. oates . they are in orders first . and 't is against the laws of the church for any but priests to do it . l. c. j. none use to do it but priests , doe they ? dr. oates . i cann't tell ; but he that i took it from , i always took to be a priest : besides , i saw his patent to be bishop of london , and they don't use to make them bishops before they be priests . l. c. j. did he shew it you ? dr. oates . i saw it . mr. j. atkins . from whom was that patent ? dr. oats . it was from the see of rome . mr. j. atkins . under what seal was it ? dr. oates . i cann't tell that , but i remember that i saw the patent . l. c. j. well , will you ask him any thing ? corker . when was it that you heard me say mass ? dr. oates . the first time that i heard him say mass , is near upon three years agoe , and then i heard him say mass about the last winter was two years . l. c. j. how often have you heard him say mass ? dr. oates . several times , a dozen times i believe . corker . was there any body with you when you heard me say mass ? dr. oates . i believe there was an whole church full at somerset-house . corker . can you nominate any in particular ? mr. j. atkins . how can he do that ? he says there was an whole church full . m. j. pemb. will you ask him any more questions ? corker . no. mr. serj. strode . then set up mr. bedloe . pray sir , will you tell my lord and the jury , what you know of mr. corker's being a priest . mr. bedloe . i have seen him wear the habit of a benedictine monk , before the suppression of the covent in the savoy : and i have seen him confessing several people in somerset-house . l. c. j. and gave them absolution ? mr. bedloe . yes . l. c. j. doe they use to let them see when they confess ? mr. bedloe . they confess in publick , but they speak so softly we cann't hear , but the whole chappel sometimes may be full of people confessing . l. c. j. when was this ? mr. bedloe . about four or five years since , when father lathum was there . l. c. j. did you ever hear him say mass at father lathum's ? mr. bedloe . no , i never saw him say mass , but only confess . l. c. j. did you never see him deliver the sacrament ? mr. bedloe . no , my lord. corker . when you saw me in my habit , was it when you came to father lathum's ? mr. bedloe . i judge so it was several times , with several of them . corker . can you nominate any one that saw me at the same time ? mr. bedloe . there were a whole chappel full of catholicks . mr. justice pemberton . that is no great matter whether he can or no. mr. justice atkins . 't is an immaterial question , why do you ask it ? mr. bedloe . my lord , what i did , was done so privately , that if i went but from strand-bridge to the monks , i either took a boat and went by water , or a coach and went round about to avoid suspition . mr. belwood . then set up mr. prance . pray sir tell what you know of this . mr. prance . i have heard him say mass at mr. pastons in duke-street . l. c. j. how often ? mr. prance . never but once . corker . when sir ? mr. prance . it may be two years agoe . mr. justice atkyns . that is another place too , mr. corker . l. c. j. have you any thing to ask him ? corker . no , my lord. l. c. j. what have you then to say for your self ? corker . my lord , this i have to say for my self , and i do protest it to be true , i never in my life did ever say mass , or hear confessions at somerset-house . l. c. j. what say you to mr. paston's ? corker . no , nor at mr. paston's , nor ever was in the company of that man , nor ever saw him here in my life to my knowledge . l. c. j. that may be . corker . i likewise protest , that i never said mass in any publick place since i was borne . l. c. j. it may be , you count not mr. paston's a publick place . corker . if it be a private place , then i should know who were in the company , and who were admitted there . l. c. j. no , you were not or years ago so nice , and cautious whom you admitted to see you in the exercise of what you call your religion ; because the execution of the law was not so strict , as now adays it is . and therefore 't is very probable , and may very well be , that you were at mr. pastons house , and yet not know all the company . corker . but , i say , i never did say mass there . mr. justice pemberton . here are three witnesses against you , and do you think your bare word will be taken against their three oaths ? mr. recorder . what say you to the savoy mr. corker ? and i ask you , because i would know whether you can speak truth in any thing . corker . i say , as to the savoy , i never received any one confession there . and i do protest i never said mass , nor heard confession in somerset-house , nor at mr. paston's in dukes-street . and , as for the savoy , i humbly beg , that since the denyal of it will not clear me , i may not be my own accuser . l. c. j. well , gentlemen of the jury , you hear what is proved against him by three witnesses , that they heard him say mass , and receive confessions , and deliver the sacrament . they tell you what order he was of , and that they saw him do the acts of a priest . corker . i appeal to all the world that ever came to somerset-house , whether ever any one heard me say mass there ? l. c. j. here is one hath . mr. serjeant strode . we will try william marshall next , who was charged upon the jury as the others . mr. belwood . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , william marshall , the prisoner at the bar , stands indicted for high-treason . the offence is not for being a priest barely , but that he being born an englishman , within the kings dominions , and having received orders from rome , did , against the laws of the kingdom , come and abide here . mr. serjeant strode . swear dr. oates , and mr. bedloe ( which was done ) dr. oates , pray stand up . l. c. j. what can you say to mr. marshall's being a priest ? dr. oates . i have heard him say mass in the savoy , and i have seen him in that posture that the priests are in when they give absolution . l. c. j. have you seen him in a priests habit say mass ? dr. oates . yes , in his habit , as a benedictine monk. mr. justice jones . did you ever see him give the sacrament ? dr. oates . yes , and consecrate the host . mr. just . jones . well , have you any thing to ask him ? marshal . when was this ? dr. oates . i have known him these three years to be a priest . marshall . that is a year longer then you knew me at the tryall . dr. oates . it is a great while since that tryal . l. c. j. ay , that is a good while ago . marshall . but where mr. oates , and when ? dr. oates . at the savoy . marshall . when ? dr. oates . within the compass of three years several times . marshall . how does that afford me any occasion of defence ? i can make no plea , unless he ascertains time . mr. just. pemberton . 't is good evidence , without confining himself to precise time . l. c. j. he says a dozen times within that compass . marshall . but why does he not name some particular time , for unless he name the time , how is it possible for us to disprove him ? l. c. j. he tells you many times in three years . marshall . but when ? l. c. j. why within three years . mr. justice dolben . what if he could tell you when ? marshall . let him name the day , then we could disprove him ; and let him name the day , and if i do not disprove him , i will be hang'd . l. c. j. 't is an improper question that you ask. mr. just . pemberton . he is not bound to name the day . dr. oates . well , i will pitch upon a day now . marshall . when was it ? dr. oates . several times last summer was twelve-moneth . marshall . what before the plot ? dr. oates . several times in that summer before the plot was discovered ; and several times the winter before , when i came over from spain . marshall . did you hear me say mass before you went over to spain ? dr. oates . yes i did . mr. justice dolben . call another witness . mr. belwood . mr. bedloe . mr. serjeant strode . pray will you tell what you know of mr. marshall . mr. bedloe . i know a great deal of him . l. c. j. what of his being a priest ? mr. bedloe . i have seen him in his habit , of a benedictine monk in the savoy . l. c. j. have you heard him say mass ? mr. bedloe . no , my lord , i have not : but he hath been preparing to go to take confessions . l. c. j. did he own himself to be a priest ? mr. bedloe . he was in the habit of a priest , but i never saw him execute any part of the office of a priest . mr. justice pemberton . did you hear him declare , that he hath been going at any time to take confession ? mr. bedloe . the monks have said , when he hath been gone , that he went to take confessions . l. c. j. upon your oath , have you ever heard him own himself to be a priest , or ever say , that he was going to take confession . mr. bedloe . no , my lord , but i have seen him in a monks habit , and within half an hour he was in a secular habit : for when they went abroad they took confessions in their secular habit. l. c. j. how often have you seen him in a monks habit ? mr. bedloe . i do not know whether it were more then once . and i asked then , where is our father going ? mr. justice pemberton . and what said they to you ? mr. bedloe . he was going to take confessions . mr. justice dolben . have not you your self been confessed by marshall ? mr. bedloe . no , my lord. l. c. j. what say you to him , will you ask him any questions ? marshall . i do not i think need to ask this vvitness any questions . l. c. j. that shall be observed for you , if it be to your advantage . if you have any thing to say for your self , pray speak it . marshall . if there be but one witness , vvhat need i make any defence ? l. c. j. vvhat say you to mr. oates testimony ? marshall . as for mr. oates , if your lordship will but promie , that it shall not prejudice me , as to the point of having but one vvitness , i have much to say for my self : but , i think i need not trouble your lordship with it . sir john keiling . vvere not you here when marshall was tryed for the plot ? mr. bedloe . yes . mr. justice pemberton . you must not ask him any questions about that . marshall . my lord , i say , if your lordship will but grant , that the vvitnesses may have free access , and go away safe — mr. bedloe . i believe the court , upon his tryal , was satisfied that he was in orders , received from the church of rome . sir john keiling . swear mr. prance ( which was done ) what did you hear him say at his last tryal ? l. c. j. this is hard evidence truely . mr. justice jones . if he would do it voluntarily of himself , he might , we did not ask him the question . mr. prance . my lord , i stood just by him when he stood at the bar , and i heard him say this to the other man mr. corker , though we are priests , this does not reach us . l. c. j. but is this good evidence ? mr. prance . i did hear him say , he was a priest . mr. justice pemberton . vve did all hear him say so i believe . mr. justice atkyns . i dare say none of the court asked him the question . marshall . my lord , i was not asked , nor had any occasion , and certainly i should not pick an occasion to condemn my self . if i did it , i did it without occasion . besides , my lord , i humbly conceive , that there must be proof against a man , or his confession won't make him guilty . mr. justice pemberton . i would not have you too sure of that . marshall . certainly if a man do confess at another time , without proof against him that will not do . mr. justice pemberton . i believe the jury will take your own confession . l. c. j. don't be over confident of that , for we have memories too aswell as you . mr. just . pemberton . you are not beli'd by mr. prance , i believe , mr. marshall . mr. just . ellis . if he have confess'd it , that is sure proof enough . sir john keiling . swear mr. dugdale . ( which was done ) you were at the last tryal , sir , i only ask of you , can you remember any thing of this ? mr. dugdale . to the best of my remembrance , i heard him own that he was a priest . sir john keiling . then say what you can for your self . marshall . my lord , i have only one material witness against me . they say that i said so ; if i did say so , i must say it to the court , and if it was to the court , it must be upon some question asked me . l. c. j. you must not say so ; i am afraid if you appeal to the court , it will do you no good . mr. just . dolben . it is plain that you are so free of your discourse , that you might say things that were not pertinent . l. c. j. 't is not proper for the court to give evidence ; if we did , we should do you little service in this matter . marshall . i do believe i shall receive all justice from the court. and i have experienced it so already . now as to the present testimony against me , i conceive that only mr. oates is a material witness ; no one else swears that they ever saw me officiate or perform the duty of a priest . as for mr. oates , he says he heard me say mass several times the last summer before the plot. and mr. oates did say he was present in june , july , and august . sir william waller , though he was pleased to forget other things , yet did remember that , and did testifie that he saw me in june , july , and august . now then i humbly conceive , if he heard me say mass at any time in that summer , it must be in one of those three months . was it in any one of them ? dr. oates . my lord , i came over in april from saint omers , and i did , as i remember , hear him say mass one time before i went again , and heard him say it several times after , which was about the middle of june , i think . marshall . now i say , if this honourable court will but please to promise , that the witnesses that come hither shall come and go safe , i believe there are witnesses that may contradict dr. oates . l. c. j. what can your witnesses prove ? you must not make bargains with the court. mr. just . pemberton . why should you suspect that your witnesses should not go free ? marshall . because some have received great abuses . mr. just . atkins . it was so said , but not made out . m. just . pemberton . there was only one person that came here , and affirmed so , but he did not prove it . mr. recorder . and the court did say that they should be punished that did it . l. c. j. the witnesses none of them , that i know of , were abused . mr. bedloe . it was only the kings witnesses that have been abused . l. c. j. what can your witnesses prove . marshall . he came over the th . of april , and i can prove that from the beginning of april to the end of july , i was not within threescore miles of london . dr. oates . as to his officiating as a priest , i cannot speak positively as to the time , but i think in last summer was twelve month. mr. just . dolben . he says , he thinks he did once in that time , but he is sure , that he did see you several times that summer . marshall . but what part of the summer ? dr. oates . from the time of my coming over again , to the time of the discovery of the plot. l. c. j. when was it that you heard him first . dr. oates . when i heard him first was in the year . before i went into spain : i went away in the month of april , and i am sure he said mass before i went into spain ; and when i came back again in the winter , i came in november , and stay'd in town about ten days , and then went to the savoy and heard him say mass . marshall . what november ? dr. oates . before the summer i came out of flanders . l. c. j. he says he went into spain in april , ( . ) marshall . and he heard me say mass before he went over ? dr. oates . yes . marshall . pray look , my lord , mr. oates will confess himself , he was but newly reconcil'd to the church of rome a little while before he went. dr. oates . i was reconcil'd to the church on ash-wednesday , and i went in april following . marshall . where did you hear me say mass then ? dr. oates . in the savoy , at that time before i went into spain . marshall . do you pretend to have known the savoy ever before your coming back again ? dr. oates . yes , i do . mr. just . pemberton . he does swear it . marshall . so he does , but he can't prove it . mr. oates came over in the company , as he says , of mr. thimbleby and mr. hitchcock , and by his means he did get to be commended to be received into the order of the benedictines , and he was then sent to mr. pickering in order to it ; now , my lord , is it credible that mr. oates having no acquaintance with the savoy before he had acquaintance with mr. hitchock , which was when he came from spain , should hear me say mass before he went thither ? mr. just . pemberton . all this is but a story to the court. l. c. j. what a wild inference do you make from this un-intelligible business ? marshall . mr. oates says so himself . mr. just . dolben . we all know you said mass so openly in the savoy , that any people whatsoever might come , and you did not know who they were . l. c. j. though he was not one of your order , yet he might know you . marshall . to my knowledge there was never three masses said in the world at the savoy . mr. just . dolben . the world knows the contrary . marshall . let mr. oates be positive in any thing , and we will disprove him . mr. just . pemberton . he hath gone as near it as is necessary ; he tells you , after his reconciliation , before he went over into spain . marshall . but i say , he could not be at the savoy before he was acquainted there , and i can bring witnesses to prove , that i was not then at the savoy ; but i pray , my lord , will these witnesses do me any good ? l. c. j. what will they prove ? marshall . that all the summer , from the beginning of april to the end of the summer , i was in the countrey , threescore miles from london . dr. oates . i am not so positive in that , my lord , but as near as i remember , before i went into spain again . your lordships all know that i was not so positive as to any one time ; but the summer before the plot broke out , i heard him say mass several times in the summer . l. c. j. now he is positive that he saw you say mass in the summer before the plot was discovered . the substance of his deposition was your saying mass , the time is not material : he tells of a many times within that compass . marshall . how shall i disprove that ? mr. recorder . he hath given you one particular time from ashwednesday , when he was reconciled to rome , till he went to spain in april . marshall . if he names times , then am i able to disprove him : and he did name one , but when he saw me offer to prove by witnesses , that i was not then in town , he goes off from it . mr. just . pemberton . 't is impossible for witnesses to be positive to a day , a week , or such a thing . mr. just . ellis . how is it possible to be so , unless it be a thing that he had taken such particular notice of , as to intend to swear to it , and give evidence about it afterwards . now , i believe , dr. oates at that time had no thoughts of giving evidence as to any such matter ; but this he is positive in , that he did hear you say mass at the savoy . marshall . my lord , if mr. oates had said he had seen me officiate at somerset-house , or wild-house , it might have been something like ; but at the savoy , it is known , that none are let in but friends , nor could mr. oates come in , but upon a particular acquaintance . l. c. j. how does that appear so ? marshall . by those that live in the house . mr. just . pemberton . you must not spend the courts time in this manner of discourse . if you have any witnesses that you think in your self are material , the court will suffer you to call them , and pray call them presently . marshall . here is the house-keeper her self that will witness , that she never saw mr. oates there . l. c. j. if the great turk had come there with apair of beads and a crucifix , you would have let him come in . but in the mean time , mr. oates , you have given him a pretty compass of time , whereby he hath an opportunity of disproving of what you say . and you give him one particular short time , but can you give any time afterwards in the summer you speak of , within any month , or two , or three . because you say at several times . dr. oates . i cannot be positive , but i will tell you one time was the sunday before they held their conspiracy , which was , i verily believe , the sunday before the th of august . l. c. j. do you believe it was in august ? dr. oates . yes , i do , and confine my self to the month of august . marshall . then call ellen rigby . dr. oates . i was acquainted with mr. pickering soon after my being reconciled , and being acquainted with him , i went along with him several times to the savoy . mr. just . pemberton . what do you talk of one hitchcock , and i know not whom , he was acquainted with pickering before . marshall . vvhen , my lord ? l. c. j. presently after he was reconciled . marshall . vvell , but you pretend now , that since you came over here , you were in the savoy ; had you a key to get in ? l. c. j. he was reconciled on ashwednesday , he went in april to spain . marshall . here is ellen rigby . l. c. j. vvell , what would you have with her ? marshall . i ask , did she ever see mr. oates in the summer before last ? mr. just . pemberton . don't you lead your vvitness with such questions . l. c. j. do you know mr. oates ? rigby . i have seen him when i see him come to ask charity of mr. pickering . l. c. j. how often ? rigby . twice or thrice . l. c. j. vvhat time in the summer ? rigby . i cannot say , but i saw him in summer was twelve-month . dr. oates . why then did not this woman , when she knew this evidence that would lay a blemish upon me , come and give it for pickering to have saved him ? mr. just . dolben . will you give me leave to ask this woman this question . whether she ever heard you say mass ? marshall . ay , my lord , with all my heart ; and if she says she hath , i will be hang'd without any more ado . mr. just . dolben . then you are sure your proselytes will say any thing you would have them ? marshall . i my self am a perfect stranger to the savoy in a manner . mr. just . pemberton . is he not acquainted with the savoy ? rigby . yes , he was there one month , when pickering was taken . marshall . pray ask her whether ever , before mr. oates went over , she saw him in the savoy . l. c. j. you shall have your question asked , but do you think you can build upon that , if she did not see him , he did not see you . did you ever see dr. oates there betwixt march and april , before he went over into spain ? rigby . no , there was no body in the house but mr. pickering . l. c. j. was there never mass said in the house ? rigby . yes , while her majesties servants were in the house . l. c. j. but was there mass never said since in the house ? rigby . never since i came out of it , which was a twelve-month ago . mr. just . pemberton . was there not mass said in three or four years time there ? rigby . not in our house , i lived but in one house . marshall . i call her to know whether dr. oates was there ? and my lord , here is that which i insist upon , that none is let in there to hear mass , but those that have some particular acquaintance and intimacy in the house . l. c. j. she only speaks to one particular part of the house . she can't say but mass was said in the other parts . rigby . there was no mass said there , that i know of . l. c. j. why , was there no mass said , but in that particular house you lived in ? rigby . i can't say that . l. c. j. but the question is , whether ever you , mr. oates , saw him say mass in this womans house ? dr. oates . i do not know that ever i saw this woman in all my life , before the tryal . marshall . he came there under a disguised name . l. c. j. he tells you he went along with pickering . dr. oates . pickering served the mass . l. c. j. well , call your witnesses , if you have any other . marshall . i can prove that i was out of town the whole summer , from the beginning of april to the end of the summer . but if mr. oates will not stand to any time , i cannot be able to disprove him . but then i le only offer one or two things more . l. c. j. when did you come to london , in august ? marshall . i will tell you as near as i can to a day . i came in the middle of bartholomew fair , which begins the th of august . l. c. j. so it was the latter end . mr. just . pemberton . well , if you have any witnesses , call them , and do not spend the courts time in vain . marshall . my lord , i have something very material , i think , to offer . the only material witness that is now against me , was a witness against me in my last tryal ; now i do conceive that i being found , not guilty at the last tryal , that witness ought to be look'd upon as perjured . and i appeal to the court , whether it were so or no. mr. just . atkins . that 's a false collection , mr. marshall . l. c. j. 't is a strange inference you make , do you think , that every witness is perjured , because the jury don't find according to what he says ? he is not perjured , for he may swear true , and the jury not believe him . marshall . i ground it my lord , upon what my lord jones said to the jury that sate upon coleman , who at their going out told them , either they were to find him guilty , or bring in two men perjured . thus it was his opinion , that the finding of the jury contrary to the evidence , did make them perjured ; and there was none of the court did oppose him . mr. just . jones . what then ? marshall . and if this were the sense of the whole court , that a man must either be found guilty , or the witnesses perjured , that is my case , and he is not to be believed . l. c. j. see how unconsequently do you talk . the court might say , that you must believe these men perjured , if they swear a positive thing , and you find it not ; but if you make use of it thus , that therefore they are perjured , 't is false , for they are not so , till they be convicted upon record . and though the jury do not believe them , yet they may swear true . marshall . 't is true . l. c. j. then you make no inference from it . marshall . my lord , i am before the same court that i was tryed by before , and before the self-same judges , who know that upon my tryal he was not believed , and therefore is perjured . mr. just . pemberton . you must consider , that sometimes the jury will go against the direction of the court ; but if the witness be not believed by them , that does not argue that he does not swear truth , or is perjured . i tell you , my brother jones might say , you must find this man guilty , or think these men perjured : many times a judge will say so , but the jury often find against the direction of the court ; shall these men be perjured then presently ? mr. just . jones . there was two positive witnesses , as positive as could be in the world , and nothing at all to contradict them . mr. recorder . will you give the jury leave to believe you mr. marshall ? for you your self said , you were a priest . marshall . yes , if i said so . i humbly desire the jury to take notice of it , that they are the self same witnesses that brought such a positive testimony the last time , which if the jury had believed , they must of necessity have brought me in guilty ; i would not spend the time of the court , but i would observe this , it was all sworn positively , that i did consent to the kings death , and other things . l. c. j. you had the better luck . marshall . then they are not to be believed now . l. c. j. this is to no purpose , neither is it to be suffered : for you break in contrary to all the laws of practice , if we suffer this as an argument , that because an evidence was not believed in one case , therefore he is perjured : and the jury gave in a verdict contrary to the witnesses testimony , that therefore he is perjured in another case . marshall . this does invalidate the testimony sure of such a witness . l. c. j. you have said it often enough , come pray conclude . mr. just . pemberton . no , mr. marshall , you must not be suffered in these harangues to impeach the witnesses ; if you have any thing material against dr. oates , or if you can shew any record of his conviction of perjury , it may be something . marshall . my lord , it is for my life , and 't is the second time that i plead for my life , much beyond my expectation ; and therefore i hope i may have the freedom to speak . and though i confess this jury is not obliged to proceed according to the verdict of the former jury , yet this jury , as well as that , is obliged to proceed according to the appearance of truth . and his being found false in his testimony the last time , should make him of no credit here . mr. just . dolben . it is not so , they are not to take notice of it , unless you bring them a record of conviction . mr. just . pemberton . he gave a good evidence then no doubt of it , though they would not believe it . mr. just . atkins . upon what grounds that jury went , is unknown to us . marshall . then , my lord , another thing is this . the law does except against all witnesses who are strongly or rationally supposed to have a spight or malice against the prisoner , much more where there is a manifest sign that he hath a malice . now i will endeavour to shew how it comes to my case : mr. oates accused me last time of treason , and that in the highest nature ; if this had been true , he had shewed himself a good subject , and me disloyal . and the jury not believing him , i was found the good subject . now he pursues his malice . l. c. j. you shall not go on in this manner , and make such notorious false inferences , that because it was not found according to his testimony , therefore he is perjured . the jury did not beleive it , might not he speak true for all that ? hath not many a witness sworn true , yet the verdict gone against their evidence ? and therefore you don't mind , ye are all guiddy-headed , if you once get a thing into your heads , you can't get it out again . mr. just . atkins . if the jury did not believe it , a great many others did . l. c. j. all you build upon is but a false conclusion ; because the jury found you not guilty , therefore they found him perjured . marshall . my lord , — mr. just . pemberton . pray sir , if you will speak any thing that is material and modest , the court will admit you to it ; but if you only go to throw dirt upon the kings witnesses , men of good reputation , and men that have shewed themselves honest , and that have spoke truth all along , ne're a one of their testimonies but what is confirmed by anothers , so that not one of them stands single , and for you to say they are ill men . marshall . my lord , i do not say they are ill men , i speak of matter of fact. l. c. j. you conclude falsly , and if you did but mind it , you would never repeat it over and over again . that because the jury did not believe his evidence , therefore he is perjured . do you suppose then that any other jury should never believe him ? marshall . my lord , i reckon his evidence is not so good , and if i am found not guilty , there must be malice in him to accuse me . l. c. j. look you gentlemen , the single question is , whether he be a romish priest or no ? it is proved by mr. oates that he hath several times heard him say mass , that he hath seen him deliver the sacrament , and seen him consecrate the host . he insisted upon it how often , mr. oates says , ten or a dozen times , in what time he cannot charge himself particularly with a month or two ; but at last he did tell him positively , because marshall said , how is it possible i can make my defence to generals unless you fix sometime ? therefore says he , i was reconciled to the church of rome on ash-wednesday , and afterwards between that and april , when i went into spain , i heard him say mass , that was once . but i heard him say in the summer several times . being asked what part , he says , i cannot say exactly , but i think in the month of august ; if he had said any thing as to the particular time , between ash-wednesday and his going into spain it had been something , but against that he makes no pretence , as to his saying mass in the savoy , that can contradict it . if he can still , he shall call his witnesses that can prove he did not say mass between the ash-wednesday , and the april he went into spain . he does indeed say , that he was a great part of the summer in the countrey , in june , and july , to bartholomew fair , threescore miles off , but to that , mr. oates says it was sometime in august and so he might be in the countrey till then , and yet say mass after , he might come to town the th , or th , or eight and twentieth , and he might be here in august . so you hear no evidence that contradicts supposing it proved true , what he imagines his witnesses can say . the last time that he charges him to have said it in the summer , may be true according to his own word and confession when he came to town . then there is mr. bedloe , he only tells you he saw him in a priests habit , but he did not see him execute the office of a priest , but he looked upon him as a priest , called him father ; and that is all that he charges him with , that is concurring evidence , and backs mr. oates ; but alone perhaps it would be very weak . but they set up here prance , and he says directly , that at the tryal , he did confess himself to be a priest ; and he seems to deny it , and would appeal to the court ; but his appealing to the court would not help him in that case . so i leave this to you upon this evidence , if you believe mr. oates that swears he saw him before he went into spain , and after say mass with the concurring evidence of mr. bedloe that saw him in his habit , and with the subsequent evidence of those two more that do swear that he did say so , you must find him guilty . and a mans own confession is evidence against himself . and if mr. marshall will recollect himself , he would not be too positive in that point . if all these particulars satisfie your conscience , i say , that he is a romish priest , you must find him guilty , if you are unsatisfied you must acquit him . cl. of cr. set william russel to the bar. william russel alias napper , hold up thy hand : you that are sworn , look upon the prisoner , and hearken to his cause , &c. mr. belwood . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , william russel aliás napper , stands indicted for high treason . the offence charged in the indictment is , that being born within the kingdom of england , and having received orders from the see of rome , he did come and abide here . to this he hath pleaded , not guilty . mr. serj. strode . swear dr. oates and mr. prance . dr. oates , will you tell my lord and the jury , what you know of mr. russels being a priest ? dr. oates . my lord , this russel went by the name of napper , and is a franciscan fryer , and i heard him say mass several times at wild-house . l. c. j. what in his habit ? dr. oates . in priests habit. l. c. j. when was this ? dr. oates . the last summer before the plot , i have heard him twenty times sing mass . mr. just . jones . did you ever see him give the sacrament ? russel . where , pray was this ? dr. oates . at wild-house . russel . what is his name ? l. c. j. oates . russel . i do not know him i say , my lord. l. c. j. did he do it publickly ? dr. oates . yes , in the chappel . mr. just . jones . did he give the sacrament ? dr. oates . i did receive the sacrament from him . russel . why , first of all , i say i do not know him . l. c. j. it may be so , more know jack pudding , than jack pudding knows . russel . well then if one witness must stand , i have no more to say . l. c. j. will you ask him any questions ? russel . he says he heard me a month ago . l. c. j. no it was last summer was twelve month. russel . then he must prove it . capt. richardson . he does prove it , he swears it . russel . well , i can make it appear , last summer was twelve month i was in the countrey . dr. oates . and i heard him say mass , november . he was then one of the chaplains of wild-house . russel . give me leave to recollect my memory . mr. belwood . set up mr. prance . you hear the question , sir , is the prisoner at the bar a priest ? mr. prance . yes , i have heard him say mass twenty times in his habit. l. c. j. did he give the sacrament ? mr. prance . yes , i saw him give the sacrament to several , and he did hear confessions ; he had a great many people about him . russel . when was this ? mr. prance . two or three years ago . russel . where ? mr. prance . at the spanish embassadors , at wild-house . mr. att. gen. my lord , here is sir william waller , that took him with his vestments , and all his trinkets . ( who was sworn . ) l. c. j. come , what say you , sir william ? sir will. waller . that morning i took him , as soon as i came into the room , i asked him his name ? he told me his name was russel ; i asked him , if ever he went by any other name ? he deny'd it for some time , but looking amongst some of his papers , i found some letters , directed to him by the name of napper . and then he did confess his name was william russel napper . searching among his clothes , i found some religious habits ; i asked him , if they were his ? and he confessed and owned them to be his . russel . it was in my custody ; it was none of mine . l. c. j. why did you say so then ? russel . i kept it for another . l. c. j. but you told him it was your own : vvhat say you to that ? russel . i do not remember that . mr. just . dolben . vvell , he swears it . l. c. j. here are two positive vvitnesses against you , what say you to it ? vvhat say you to his saying , he hath heard you say mass twenty times ? l. c. baron . vvhat say you to the saying mass at the time dr. oates speaks of ? russel . i believe he is mistaken , as to the time and year . i was entred into the house in — . mr. justice pemberton . then you think it was at another time ? russel . he could not hear me at that time , for i was then in the country . l. c. j. have you any thing to say ? it shall be allow'd you , it was at another time , but it seems 't is true . look you , gentlemen , you have a very plain business of it ; here are two vvitnesses that swear they saw him give absolution , deliver the sacrament , and heard him say mass , and one say twenty times . and sir william waller , who says , that he confessed the priests habit to be his own . russel . consider my circumstances , and give me a little time ; i have not had any time to get my friends near me , or to prepare my self . l. c. j. i do not see any good time would do you . i think the best use you can make of your time , is to repent . dr. oates . my lord , the court here is pestred with papists ; here are a great many about here . l. c. j. if they be vvitnesses we can't keep them out . mr. bedloe . some of them may be vvitnesses , but all are not ; and if they be , they come to catch advantages . mr. just . dolben . i don't understand why they should be turned out . mr. just . pemberton . let them alone : be at quiet . l. c. j. no , no , they will revile us , that they had not an open and a fair hearing : we won't have it said , that we do any thing in hugger-mugger ; what we do is done openly and honestly . cl. cr. set charles parris , aliàs parry , to the bar. hold up thy hand . you that are sworn , &c. mr. belwood . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . the offence for which the prisoner at the bar stands indicted , is high treason , the same offence for which the rest have been indicted — l. c. j. then call your vvitnesses . mr. serj. strode . dr. oates , and mr. prance . ( vvho were sworn . ) l. c. j. vvhat can you say against the prisoner , as to his being a priest ? dr. oates . my lord , he is a reputed priest , and hath said mass several times . i have heard him say mass at wild-house , not in the publick chappel , but in another room . l. c. j. vvhere do you say ? dr. oates . once at wild-house . l. c. j. vvhere else ? dr. oates . at mr. paston's . l. c. j. vvhen was this , vvinter or summer ? dr. oates . vvithin the compass of a year , reckoning — and — . it was of a saturday one time , and twice at mr. paston's , and once or twice , i can't tell which , at the other place . l. c. j. and in the priests habit ? dr. oates . yes , in the priests habit. l. c. j. and did you see him consecrate the host ? dr. oates . yes . l. c. j. and give the sacrament ? dr. oates . yes . parry . my lord , as to that he speaks of seventy seven or seven eight , what month of seventy eight , i desire to know ? dr. oates . i cannot confine my self to a month ; i knew him to be a priest , but i was little acquainted with him , but he was a reputed priest . mr. just . jones . but you are sure this is the man ? dr. oates . yes , this is the man. parry . am i the man ? what is my name ? dr. oates . you went by the name of johnson . l. c. j. did you never go by that name of johnson ? parry . no , my lord , but by this name of parry : parry is my name , and by that name i went , a●d never by any other name than parry , whatever he says . l. c. j. why , by that same name you are indicted , and you are the man that he saw . mr. just . pemberton . will you ask him ever a question ? parry . i have askt him already what i would ask him . sir john keiling . then set up mr. prance . l. c. j. what do you say as to mr. parry ? mr. prance . my lord , i know he is a priest ; i have heard him say mass at the venetian embassadors , and at mr. pastons too . l. c. j. how often ? mr. prance . once at paston's , and two or three times at the venetian embassadors . l. c. j. and you saw him give the sacrament ? mr. prance . yes . l. c. j. in his habit ? mr. prance . yes . parry . at what time ? mr. prance . i believe it might be half a year before the plot. and i know you by another circumstance . you brought a chalice to my house , and it was whole , and you broke it , and told me , i must not touch it till it was broke , and so you defaced it . l. c. j. that was an holy vessel , was it not ? mr. prance . yes , and he told me i must not touch it till it was broken in pieces . l. c. j. if you had not been a priest , he had been as holy as you , and he might have touch'd it as well as you . l. c. baron . his breaking was to desecrate it . mr. prance . he bought some oyl boxes of me about that time . parry . i do not know this man. mr. prance . you were several times with me . l. c. j. why have you forgot the chalice you brought to his house ? parry . i have no reason to forget my self , for i never did any such thing : for i never brought nor sold to him any chalice or any such thing , and besides , suppose i had — l. c. j. nay , there is no great stress laid upon that , but to shew you , that he knows you , he did not mistake the man. the stress of the evidence lies , that he heard you say mass at the venetian embassadors , and at pastons . and then dr. oates speaks of wilde-house . mr. bedloe . i had order to send for two witnesses out of monmouthshire — l. c. j. here is proof enough . mr. justice pemberton . what have you to say for your self ? parry . i have this to say , and can shew it evidently , that is , i have witnesses to prove , that i never was at wildhouse to officiate in the year and before the plot. and for this or moneths that mr. prance does alleadge i was in london , i was in the country . l. c. j. when ? parry . six or seven moneths before the plot. l. c. j. he did not confine himself precisely to any six or seven moneths . parry . my lord , i desired him to fix upon a moneth . mr. justice pemberton . he cannot do it . l. c. j. if he can , let him ; we will ask him the question . when was it that you saw him do thus ? mr. prance . my lord , i am not certain what time it was , but about two , or two years and an half ago , i am not certain , 't is impossible for me to remember it . mr. justice pemberton . you must take him in what he says , this he is sure of , he did hear you say mass , and give the sacrament , but as to the time , he believes it to be about this time , but he is not positive , nor can be in it . parry . he only believes it now , because he knows i have witnesses for that time . he hath sworn it positively , it was six or seven moneths before the plot , and i have witnesses to produce , can prove , how long before the plot i was in the country . l. c. j. call your witnesses . parry . call lanscroon and jacob. l. c. j. how long was it before the plot , as near as you can , tell the time mr. oates ? dr. oates . i have heard so many priests , that i cannot possible give an account of the day . parry . i desire to know of mr. oates who was embassador at wildhouse at that time when he sayes he heard me ? mr. recorder . were you never at paston's ? parry . no. mr. recorder . nor at the venetian residents ? parry . no. mr. recorder . mr. parry was not , but mr. johnson was . parry . i know not mr. johnson , my name is parry . mr. recorder . i mean mr. johnson , alias parry . l. c. j. mr. prance , you are sure that is the man ? mr. prance . yes ; and i heard him confess himself to be a priest . l. c. baron . and this is the man that brought the chalice to you ? l. c. j. why did you never go with a chalice to this man , and break it ? parry . my lord , i never bought any thing of him , nor sold any thing to him , nor had any converse with him . sir john keiling . i do never wonder at their denying any thing , i would feign know whether he would not deny the sun shines now or no ? parry . and then for the private room , what room of the house was it ? prance . i took him up in the middle of cheapside , and therefore i must sure know him . parry . he did not know me , but only took me on suspition at random , because i was in the company of a roman catholick . then the witness lanscroon stood up . l. c. j. what would you have this man asked ? parry . about the year and , wherein mr. oates alleadges he heard me , let them answer to that , how long i was at windsor ? and whether i did not dwell constantly there ? l. c. j. well , you hear the question . how long was he at windsor ? lanscroon . from what time do you ask ? mr. justice pemberton . nay , you must not be lead into an answer . how long was he at windsor ? lanscroon . from christmass , to alhallantide . mr. justice ellys . and was he never at london all that time ? lanscroon . no. mr. justice pemberton . how can you tell that ? mr. justice atkyns . was he alwayes in your fight all the time ? lanscroon . yes , he was there always . mr. justice atkyns . were you there always your self ? lanscroon . yes . l. c. j. what are you ? lanscroon . a painter . l. c. j. and was you and he always together at that time ? lanscroon . yes . l. c. j. what in a room ? lanscroon . yes . l. c. j. can you affirm , that for a twelve moneth together , you saw him every day ? lanscroon . yes . mr. recorder . how many years ago do you speak of ? lanscroon . from to . mr. recorder . i don't ask you that , but how many years ago ' t is ? l. c. j. when came he down to windsor ? lanscroon . christmass ( . ) l. c. j. the testimony of mr. oates goes to november , and he speaks of christmass following . mr. recorder . how many years ago was it , i ask ? lanscroon . a year ago last christmass . mr. recorder . that is and . mr. justice pemberton . your witness is understood , mr. parry . then stood up the other witness jacob. l. c. j. what say you about mr. parry's being at windsor ? jacob. he was a gentleman that came along with me in the coach to windsor . l. c. j. when ? jacob. before christmass ( . ) l. c. j. how long before ? jacob. ten days . he came there to take the air for his health , he was not well . l. c. j. how long staid he there ? jacob. he staid at windsor till alhallantide after , he staid there a year . l. c. j. did you see him there every day of that year ? jacob. yes . l. c. j. why , what reason had you to see him every day ? jacob. he dined every day at our house . l. c. j. your house ? what house ? jacob. the painters . mr. justice dolben . however , that is but from christmass , and he speaks of november before . l. c. j. did he dine there all that time ? jacob. yes . l. c. j. did he never keep a fast in all that time ? jacob. no. l. c. j. did he dine a wednesdays and fridays ? jacob. yes . l. c. j. did he dine there every friday constantly ? jacob. yes . l. c. j. there was one good friday in that time . dr. oates . pray ask this witness if he never heard him say mass ? mr. justice dolben . then he must be sworn , and may be he will deny it . l. c. j. did he dine of ashwednesday , and good friday ? jacob. yes , my lord. l. c. j. so , he sayes you eat of good-friday and ashwednesday , the pope shall know it . mr. recorder . what say you ? did he eat flesh upon those days ? jacob. yes , he did . l. c. j. you can tell what he did eat , can you ? mr. recorder . did he eat beaf or mutton ? mr. justice dolben . go , you talk like an idle boy . l. c. j. he tells you , that you eat meat too , that is more : parry . my lord , we eat fish , and such things all catholicks do . mr. record . ay the priests do , but their pupils do not , they will not allow it to them . l. c. j. well , have you done , have you any more witnesses ? parry . my lord , i would ask mr. oats , and desire he would answer me to it , what he did depose against me before my lord of shaftsbury , and the committee of lords , concerning one mr. collins , that i heard his confession at my lord ambassadors , now i have it to shew , that i did not officiate there , nor frequent the house . l. c. j. who is it that will prove you did not come to the house ? parry . the venetian ambassadors servants . l. c. j. i do not understand what you mean. parry . i am to ask of mr. oats , and i desire he should answer to it , what he did depose before my lord shaftsbury and the committee of lords , touching mr. collins . l. c. j. he cannot remember it may be . mr. j. pemb. you must not ask such questions as these are , it does not refer to this matter . parry . he did give in that i heard mr. collins's confession , i ask why he does not give it in now ? l. c. j. that is a forreign matter , what have we to do with it now ? mr. j. pemb. if you will prove any thing against him , you may , but you may not ask such questions as that . parry . i have proved that i was in , and . in the countrey . mr. j. pemb. they tell us of ten days before christmas , and mr. oates speaks of november . l. c. j. look you gentlemen of the jury , here are two witnesses against him , mr. oates and mr. prance . — parry . my lord , i have one thing i desire to be taken notice of , that is , this letter of the ambassadors , who upon the examination of all his family does testify and declare , that i did never officiate in any respect in his family . l. c. j. it cannot be read . mr. j. pember . it is not any evidence . parry . how shall i clear my self , if the testimony of the ambassador , and his whole family be not admitted ? mr. j. atkins . 't is a hard thing for you to clear your self . l. c. j. why don't you bring them hither as your witnesses ? mr. record . where is my lord ambassador , why does not he come hither ? parry . he hath left the kingdom . mr. record . then you may boldly say any thing of him , and we cann't disprove you . l. c. j. is all his family gone with him ? parry . there is but one remaining , i think he 's here . l. c. j. call him . parry . monsieur rivier . ( who appeared and stood up ) l. c. j. what do you ask him ? parry . do you know this hand , sir ? l. c. j. it must not be read if he do . parry . he is one of the servants to my lord egmont , and he lived in the house , and he knows — mr. j. pemb. ask him any question , but don't tell him what he knows l. c. j. why don't you ask him some questions ? why , you have not catechisms in your church , you don't know how to ask questions . parry . ask him whether he ever heard me say mass at my lord ambassadors house ? l. c. j. it 's to no purpose if he did not , here are some have . parry . then my lord , he knows that there was a strict examination at wild-house by my lords orders , whether i did frequent the house , and it was reported by them all i did not , and they must know if ever i did officiate there , for there is none admitted to say mass there , but by order . mr. j. pemb. look you sir , do you know that mr. parry ever said mass at wild-house ? rivier . no my lord , i do not know it . mr. j. pemb. it was in a private room , dr. oates sayes . rivier . i never saw him there . mr. j. pemb. if you ask an hundred here , they would say the same thing . l. c. j. come , when matters are plain 't is in vain to contend ; here is the business gentlemen , here are mr. oates and mr. prance , two witnesses against mr. parry , mr. oates says , he hath heard him say mass one time at one place , and twice or thrice at another . mr. prance hath heard him often , and mr. prance does tell you plainly , that he cannot err , that he is not mistaken in the man , for he came to his house with a chalice , and broke it there , and he knew him so well , that meeting him by chance , he took him up in the streets ; so if you believe them , they swear it positively , and you must find it so . then the lord chief justice went away . cl. of cr. set henry starkey to the bar. hold up thy hand , &c. mr. belwood . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury . henry starkey stands indicted for the like offence with the other prisoners ; that he having received orders from the see of rome , came into england , and this is high treason ; to this he hath pleaded not guilty , we will prove it upon him . sweat doctor oates and mr. prance . ( which was done . ) mr. serj. strode . pray sir will you tell my lord and the gentlemen of the jury , what you do know of this starkeys being a priest ? dr. oates . my lord , mr. starkey is a priest , and i once heard him say mass at mr. paston's . l. c. baron . when was that ? how long was it agoe ? dr. oates . it is about three years agoe . l. c. baron . did he give the sacrament then , or at any other time ? dr. oates . none received but himself . mr. belwood . was he in priests habit ? dr. oates . yes . l. c. bar. did he receive the sacrament , and consecrate the host ? dr. oates . yes , in both kinds . l. c. baron . will you ask him any questions ? starkey . he tells me of the priests habits , what are they sir ? dr. oates . under it he was in a secular habit , but first he had a thing about his neck , a piece of linnen , i have forgot what they call it , and over that he had a surplice girt about him , and a stole about his neck over that . starkey . dr. oates , if you be so , for i do not know you , a priests habit is a cassock and a cloak , the ornaments of a priest are not a surplice , but an — mr. j. pemb. you are well skill'd in it i see . starkey . and how did you know that i said mass ? did you know that i took orders ? for if i took no orders , it was no mass ; for it is the priest makes the mass , and not the mass the priest ; and then if i was no priest , it could be no mass . mr. j. pemb. that is a pretty argument indeed ; do any but priests say mass ? starkey . i can bring instance of a gentleman in this town , a private lay-man , who did say mass about this town , and he was a protestant , and at last he stole the chalice . mr. j. pemb. he did well , did he not ? l. c. b. 't is a great evidence this arguing of yours , if he did not swear it , that you are a priest . starkey . i wonder that this gentleman should so well remember me , i don't know him . mr. j. pemb. do you think you know every one that hath seen you at mass ? sir john keiling . set up mr. prance . what say you sir to this ? mr. prance . my lord , i heard him say mass at my lady somersets , and at mr. pastons . starkey . as i hope for mercy from almighty god , i was never there in all my life . mr. prance . more than that , i heard him confess himself a priest to one mr. duncomb . starkey . what is that he sayes ? mr. prance . did you know one mr. duncomb that is dead ? starkey . yes , he was a schoolmaster . mr. prance . well , i heard you say mass at his house . starkey . i 'll tell you what then , it was with a pot of ale , and at or a clock in the afternoon , for that was the only time i was there . dr. oates . i have heard him say , he said mass in the kings army . mr. j. pemb. he tels you , he heard you say , that you did often in the kings army say mass . starkey . you never heard me say so in your life , for i never did . but pray my lord give me leave to speak : i appeared for the king , when he had but men in appearance for him . i am but a younger brother , an esquires d brother ; i spent in the king's service above l . which i got my self , and bled for it before i had it . i spent my annuity of sevenscore pound a year for the king , i lost my leg for him , and spent my estate to that degree , that that day when i receiv'd the sentence of banishment , i had but two half crowns left . l. c. bar. mr. starkey , you may urge this to the king , for his mercy and clemency , 't is nothing to the point here before the jury to be tryed . whatsoever you have merited by your services , you must apply your self to the king for his mercy , it is nothing here . starkey . pray my lord , give me leave to add one thing more , i did discover to the king a plot designed against his person , state , and government , and i suffer to this day for it . l. c. bar. you may be a priest for all that . starkey . but my lord , by the civil law it is a conclusion , that although a man be a traitor , and in the same plot , he is to be indemnified for discovering the conspiracy against his prince , much more for discovering another . mr. j. pemb. we have nothing to do with that here , but whether you are a priest or not . starkey . that i must leave to the proof . l. c. bar. well then , i 'll tell you gentlemen , this person is indicted for being a priest and coming into england . for the point of his being a priest you have heard two witnesses depose ; and they both tell you , that they have heard him say mass , as great an evidence of it as can be , for none say mass but priests . dr. oates tels you at mr. paston's . mr. prance says at mr. paston's , at my lady somersets , and one mr. duncombs . if you believe this , you must find him guilty . mr. j. atkins . and they speak too , to his receiving the sacraments in both kinds . stark . if i was there , sure there was some body else besides my self . cl. of cu. set alexan. lumsden to the bar. hold up thy hand , &c. your charge is to enquire of him as of your first prisoner , and hear your evidence . mr. belwood . may it please your lordship , and you gentlemen of the jury , alexander lumsden the prisoner at the bar , stands indicted for high treason , for that he being a priest , and receiving orders from rome , did come here into england , and abide contrary to the statute . sir john keiling . swear dr. oates , mr. dugdale , and mr. prance , ( which was done ) l. c. bar. come dr. oates , what say you to this man ? dr. oates . i heard him say mass , he is a dominican fryer as i remember . i heard him say mass times at wild-house . l. c. bar. and consecrate the host ? dr. oates . yes , and i reciv'd the sacrament from him . l. c. bar. and see him take confession ? dr. oates . yes mr. j. pemb. will you ask him any questions ? lumsden . what time was this , if it please you sir ? dr. oates . that summer that was before the plot broke out . mr. lumsden knows me well enough . l. c. bar. do you not know him ? lumsden . truly i do not know that ever i saw him , or conversed with him in my life . l. c. bar. what say you mr. dugdale ? dugdale . my lord , i was at whitehal that day mr. lumsden was taken ; and by the importunity of some friends i did goe to him , but i did not know him , but by discourse he did confess himself a priest ; i asked him if he was a franciscan , he said he was a dominican . dr. oates . he is procurator-general of the kingdom of scotland . mr. record . they have such a parcel of people , and such names for them . mr. serj. strode . mr. prance , what do you know of lumsden's being a priest ? mr. prance . i know he is a priest , and have heard him say mass several times at wild-house . l. c. bar. was he there in the habit ? mr. prance . yes , and consecrated the host . l. c. baron . how long since ? mr. prance . two years since , i heard him times . l. c. bar. do you know what countreyman he is ? mr. prance . an irish man i think . dr. oates . no , he is a scotchman , he will not deny it . l. c. baron . what countreyman are you ? lumsden . a scotchman . l. c. baron . of what part of scotland ? lumsden . aberdeen . l. c. bar. were you born there ? lumsden . yes . l. c. baron . you have no more to say , have you ? lumsd . my lord , i am not here i think , to be my own accuser , i humbly conceive so , and whatsoever is against me , must be proved , not simply asserted . they ought to give proofs and reasons ; but so it is , it is but a simple assertion what they say . i desire they may prove it . l. c. bar. no , they need not ; it is sufficient if they prove it by such circumstances that the jury are satisfied and convinced that it is true . but it is not to be looked for , that no proof should be given against the priest , but by them that saw him receive orders . mr. j. atkins . 't is impossible almost to prove that . l. c. bar. but if they prove the circumstances , that you have executed the office of a priest by saying mass , which none does but a priest , 't is enough to guide them in their verdict . mr. j. ellis . and they have proved that which is next to a positive assertion . l. c. bar. that need not be . mr. j. ellis . but let us not lessen our proof neither . mr. j. pemb. you must consider that the proof is certain , for they have sworn an assertive positive thing , which thing is enough to a jury to prove you a priest , because none others but priests may do such things in your church as you have done . therefore it is a good argument and evidence , to conclude you a priest , from this evidence that hath been given . dr. oates . i have heard him own himself a priest times . lumsden . the exercise of the priestly function is but a penalty of marks . l. c. bar. ay , that is , if the king will go no higher . but you are prosecuted upon another law. mr. j. ellis . 't is evidence , and a great evidence , that which hath been given , for we must go according to the nature of the thing . 't is impossible the act of parliament should be put in execution , if they must prove they received orders from the see of rome . but when they have proved those things done by any man , which none ought to do but a priest ; it hath been in all times allowed to be a special evidence . mr. j. pemb. 't is a plain and sufficient evidence . mr. j. ellis . but if there were any need of it , and you would have any more , he hath confessed upon the question asked him , whether he was a franciscan , no , he was a dominican . l. c. bar. have you done ? then gentlemen of the jury , you must not at this time of the day be insnared by that argument , that there must be a positive proof of this reception of orders from the church of rome , because it hath been all along accounted , and is an undoubted proof for your satisfaction , if it appear he hath exercised the offices of the function ; those offices that are not done but by priests . now this hath been proved by two witnesses , and by the confession of the priest himself to dr. oates and mr. dugdale . so i must leave it upon the point of fact to you , whether it be not sufficient proof . but this case will differ from all the rest , and the court is very tender in the case of life , that it should be without all question what is determined ; therefore as to your enquiry for him , it must go only whether he be a priest or no , for the others , you must consider them as englishmen , and enquire of them as such ; he is a scotchman , as he says , and they say so too . now then there are some words in this statute , whereupon the court hath conceived a doubt , whether his case comes within them , which are the words about the kings dominions , which now are far more enlarged than were those of the queen when the statute was made : if then you find him a priest , you must find the other matter specially . mr. j. ellis . look you gentlemen , we are to be of counsel for the prisoner , and it being matter of law , we shall take time to advise upon it before we give our opinions in it ; but for the matter of fact , i doubt not but you will find that he is a priest ; and then the other matters , that he was born at aberdeen in scotland ; and the other matters you may find specially , there needs no more . mr. record . swear an officer to keep the jury . who after the recess of a quarter of an hour , returned into the court , and having answered to their names , and appointed their foreman to give in their verdict , he delivered it thus . cl. of cr. lionel anderson alias munson , hold up thy hand , look upon the prisoner , how say you , is he guilty of the high treason , whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. james corker , hold up thy hand . how say you , is he guilty , &c. foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. is william marshal guilty , &c. foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. is william russel alias napper guilty , &c. foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. is charles parry guilty , &c. foreman . guilty . cl. of cr. is henry starkey guilty , &c. foreman . guilty . cl. of crown . alexander lumsden , hold up thy hand . look upon the prisoner , how say you , is he guilty of the high-treason whereof he stands indicted , or not guilty ? foreman . we find he is guilty of being a priest , and born at abberdeen in scotland . mr. justice ellys . read the notes to them . cl. of crown . you find that alexander lumsden is a scotchman , of years of age , born at abberdeen in the kingdom of scotland , being then under the dominions of king charles the first , and now under the dominions of our present sovereign , and in the reign of the said king charles the first ; and that at the time in the indictment mentioned , he was a priest in holy orders , by authority derived from the see of rome , prout in the indictment . and that he came and was remaining in england , prout in the indictmment . but whether upon the whole matter he be guilty of high-treason within this law or not , you do not know , and crave the opinion of the court. foreman . yes . cl. of crown . then hearken to your verdict , as the court hath recorded it ; you say , &c. mr. recorder . call for the executioner . then the judges went off from the bench , and the court proceeded to judgment . cl. of crown . set lionel anderson , alias munson to the bar. lionel anderson , alias munson , thou standest convicted of high-treason , what canst thou say for thy self , why judgment should not pass upon thee to die according to the law ? anderson . i can say this , that i would have gone out of england , but the king kept me here , telling me , he had need of my service ; and , i had a protection from the council-board . the bishop of london , when i was taken first , sent a letter to sir clement armiger , that neither i , nor my books , should be medled with ; that i had written for the king and the government , for which i was excommunicated at rome . and when i was taken , and in custody of some of the horse-guard , the duke of monmouth sent to have me freed again . i beg'd of the king , that i might go ; said i , i wont expose the king to the worst of rebels : but he told me , that i should stay in england ; and mr. peter welsh and i had orders from the council , he one , and i another , to stay . mr. recorder . for that matter you may be assured , i promise it you faithfully , and publickly , that i will acquaint the king with what you say . anderson . i thank you sir. mr. recorder . for this court hath nothing to do with that , the king is the proper judge of that matter , to determine his own pleasure , as he thinks fit : tye him up anderson . sir , i had no notice of my tryal , but this morning . i sent to my lord bridgewater , to know when i should be tryed , he told me , i should have ten dayes notice of it . now i have witnesses to disprove mr. prance's testimony : for mr. oates , i own he hath heard me say mass ; but for mr. bedloes testimony , as i hope to see the face of almighty god , i know him not . when i was taken , said he to me , mr. anderson , let me see your protection , and i shewed it him ; you have two names , said he , i do not know whether it be you or no. and then besides , these are not legal witnesses . mr. recorder . nay , that must not be allowed you to say . you have been fairly heard , and tryed . they were upon their oaths , and the jury , twelve men , upon their oaths , without any exception made to them ; they have convicted you ; therefore this is to calumniate the proceedings of the court. anderson . i tell you this more ; they are not the kings evidence properly , for they swear for themselves , upon the accompt of benefit , if any priest be convicted , they are to have so much mony. mr. recorder . the court heard the evidence that was given , and if you will have it of the court , the court does really believe them , and so did the jury too . anderson . i am satisfy'd . mr. recorder . tye him up then . cl. of crown . james corker , hold up thy hand . you stand convicted of high-treason , what can you say for your self , &c. corker . nothing , but that i refer my self to god my just judge and saviour . mr. recorder . tye him up . cl. of crown . william marshall , hold up thy hand , thou art in the same condition , what say'st thou for thy self ? marshall . i have very little more to say , then what i have said already . i thought the law had not allowed any man to have been condemned upon the testimony of one witness , but required two . now there was but one positive witness against me , the rest only said , i had confessed my self to be a priest . two of them did swear , they heard me confess it at my other tryal : if it had been at this tryal , it had been another thing , and there had been some validity in the proof ; but , to say , they heard me confess it at another time , i humbly conceive , according to the law , bears no force . i have this further to add , his majesty , some years ago , put forth a declaration under the broad-seal , for a to●leration of religion , and liberty of conscience , whereby the roman catholicks had the use of their religion in their private houses . now , i have been informed , that according to law , whatsoever is put forth under the broad-seal , must be recalled by something under the broad-seal , or it remains in force , which was never done as to this declaration , and then i lye under the protection of that declaration . mr. recorder . as for the first part , 't is plain , to the satisfaction of every body , that there hath been two sufficient witnesses , upon whose testimony you are convicted . for whether you were asked the question or not , yet if you will say you are a priest , that confession of yours is evidence against you , though you might possibly say so without being asked the question . marshall . is it credible i should do so ? mr. recorder . yes , the jury believed it so . dr. oates . one of the jury stood by and heard the words . mr. recorder . and now , because i will put it out of all doubt , 't is not the business , nor the duty of the court to give any evidence of any fact that they know of their own knowledge , unless they will be sworn for that purpose : for though they do know it in their own private consciences to be true , yet they are obliged to conceal their own knowledge , unless they will be sworn as witnesses . but now you are convicted , i must take the liberty to tell you , that at your last tryal you did own your self to be a priest . and i must put you in mind further of something which you may very well remember , when i detained you after your acquittal , and recommitted you when sir george wakeman was discharged ; i did then tell you , you having owned your selves to be priests , i was bound to take notice of that confession of yours , and therefore obliged to detain you . such a token as that is , may perhaps bring it to your memory : but as it was hinted to you before , you are a voluminous talker , and abundance of things may drop out of your mouth , that you don't consider before they are past . marshall . 't is for my life , and therefore i may be permitted to speak sure . mr. recorder . that is as to the first point . and then as to the kings declaration , which was the other matter you insisted upon , i presume it does not stick with any body that knows the matter ; but least it should , i would say this to it . 't is very well known in the first place ( i do not go now to determine the law upon it , because you know what opinions and judgment it received afterwards ) yet this i will adventure to say , that it was never the intention of that declaration that ever priests should come and reside here , but it was only intended for tender consciences , as the very letter of the declaration it self does shew , not to countenance priests and jesuits , that have cast off all their allegiance to the king , and endeavour both to destroy him and his government . marshall . pray sir , will you give me leave to speak as to that . if so be the use of their religion were permitted to roman catholicks , that religion not being to be practised without priests , it is to be supposed , that the priests are permitted . mr. recorder . but if a man were to argue with you now , in your own way , pray are there not priests in england , besides those priests that were born here ? you know , of your own acquaintance , there are several roman catholick priests , not englishmen born , that are constantly here , who can perform the offices . marshall . nay , i don't know that : but this i know , if they be not born in england , or have lived in england , so as to know the tongue , roman catholicks will be little the better for them . mr. recorder . nay , i don't say much the better , but much the worse for their coming at them . and in case they would only use the english truth , i presume they would not have so many proselytes , but you gull them with stuff they understand not . marshall . pray sir give me leave a little , i have one word more . for all matters of treason , and treacherous conspiracy , i was freed before in this court ; now i would observe , what the best lawyers that ever were in england have observed for me , that there is no crime in priesthood it self : for my lord coke in his fifth report . leaf , commenting largely upon the statute of the twenty seventh of eliz. and inlarging upon the sence and meaning of that statute , and calling to mind , who the men were that were formerly executed by force of that statute , and why , concludes thus . hence it appears , that no man yet hath or can be executed for his function of priesthood , but because there was annexed to the priesthood treacherous designs and treacherous attempts . and the same lawyer in the d. institutes , th . leaf , says , that in this statute of the th . of elizabeth , 't was very wisely and justly done by the statute-makers , to provide that the judges should proceed in their judgments upon that matter , only according to what is expressed and specified in that statute . and those words were a sanctuary to the judges , and put in to prevent the shedding of guiltless blood . now if so be that so great a lawyer , in a discourse about priesthood and treachery , does thence conclude , that priesthood as priesthood is no crime , nor no function belonging to it hath any crime in it , well may i conclude so too . and indeed if it had , then a great part of the world would be traitors , nay , it would bring in christ himself who was a priest , to be a traytor too . therefore priesthood as priesthood hath no treason essentially linkt to it . and when he says , that they must proceed according to what is specified , he does in the forementioned place shew , that it was not specified at all , that any that were executed , were for priesthood executed . and i am accused of nothing else in the world , but bare priesthood as priesthood , without any design or treachery joyned to it . and if according to law priesthood be not liable to condemnation , then i am not to be condemned . mr. recorder . now you have been heard . marshall . yes , sir , and i thank you for it . mr. recorder . this long speech of yours will signifie but little , when you consider the act of parliament , upon which you are indicted , ( 't is true , set that act of parliament out of the case , and then to be a priest is not high-treason ; nay , in case a man be born out of the kings dominions , and be a priest , and remain here , that is not high-treason within this statute , because priesthood it self does not make the crime ; ( god forbid any one should affirm it ) but when all that is granted , when an act of parliament hath taken particularly notice of the great mischiefs and inconveniencies that have attended the government , and the continual danger that the supream head hath been in , by having persons which were born within the kings dominions , ( as you were ) to wave their allegiance , and to acknowledge a supremacy in any foraign prince or prelate , as you all do , when you take orders from the see of rome ; the wisdom of the nation hath thought reasonable that such should be adjudged traitors . and this act of parliament upon which you stand convicted , does plainly say , if any one born within the kings dominions will take orders from the see of rome , and shall after reside here , he is guilty of high treason . and this is not only thought so by us that are here , but by all my lords the judges that were present at your tryal ; for god forbid we should condemn you for any thing as high treason , if you had not been within the compass of the act of parliament . and what is treason , the act of parliament particularly describes , which all hath been proved upon you . and because you are pleased to speak it to the court , and lay it on the consciences of the court , i discharge my conscience , the jury having convicted you for high treason , i am very ready to pass judgment upon you according to the law , and i will clear my conscience of that presently . tie him up . cl. of cr. william russel , hold up thy hand , thou art in the same case , what canst thou say for thy self ? &c. russel . i can say this , my lord , that in my conscience , i do not acknowledge my self guilty of what they accuse me for , but i must submit to the laws as they are made ; but i do protest before almighty god , and this whole court , that i am innocent of all that is laid upon me . mr. recorder . why , what were you never at wild-house , and said mass there ? i would feign hear , whether you in the state and condition you are in , ( though your jesuits have a thousand tricks and evasions ) have confidence enough to say you never were , nor said mass there ? russel . i ought not to accuse my self . mr. recorder . you are convicted . but every thing that you say is but an evasion , and a trick to catch and insnare the ignorant , but people of any sort of sense , will not be gull'd so . russel . for my witnesses , you are my witness , i have but one witness upon that business . mr. recorder . the jury have believed them . russel . 't is possible it may be so . mr. recorder . nay , 't is beyond possible , 't is true . russel . the witnesses that have deposed against me , for my part i know them not . mr. recorder . you have heard of dr. oates , mr. prance , and of sir william waller too . tie him up . cl. of cr. charles parris alias parry , hold up thy hand . you are in the same condition , what have you to say ? parry . what have i to say for my self ? i have this to say , that those that did depose against me , did not say one word of truth , i take god to witness for it . i am a dead man by the law , and i can suffer , and i can praise god for his holy will in that . i am as ready to suffer the law , as the law is to inflict suffering upon me , for it is for gods glory ; but i may pretend , and will pretend to , that i am not subject to the law , in asmuch as i have declared , that i am a frenchman , and they are to prove that i am not . i was threatned by sir william waller when i was under the protection of an embassador ; and notwithstanding his protection , which was a violation of the law of nations , that one under his protection should be so used , and that slighted as if it were nothing . but because they did not regard it , i shewed it under his hand and seal ; i alledged in the next place , that i was a frenchman ; but because i would not take my oath that i was born a frenchman , sir w. waller did threaten me with irons ; and therefore all that i said was compelled and forced from me ; then i said i was a monmouth-shire man , because my father and my mother were so , they are of that countrey ; but however it belonged to them to prove whether i was a frenchman or no. mr. recorder . no , i believe they cannot , would you have them prove you a frenchman . parry . i alledged my self to be a frenchman , but they would not believe me . mr. recorder . why , no body does . we believe you to be an englishman . parry . and if it please you , they are to prove it . mr. recorder . well that is over now , tie him up . parry . i am not a subject , and as not a subject , am not under the penal laws . cl. of cr. set henry starkey to the bar. henry starkey , hold up thy hand . thou art in the same condition with him that went last before thee , what canst thou say for thy self ? &c. starkey . in the first place mr. recorder , here is mr. prance hath sworn a false oath . mr. recorder . i must not hear that mr. starkey . starkey . will you please to hear me sir. mr. recorder . i will give you all the freedom you can lawfully desire in the world , but it must be that which will consist with my duty , and the reverence you owe the court. you shall not revile the kings evidence as long as i am here , by the help of god. starkey . if that it were true , that i had said mass at my lady somersets and mr. duncombs , yet it is not sufficient to prove a man to be a priest , for any man may take the priests garments , and do the ceremony and the office , because there are thousands that have suffered death for it that have not been priests . and so , to do these acts is not evidence of being a priest . mr. recorder . indeed i don't understand what makes a romish priest , nor do i desire it . starkey . but you will give me the letter of the law. mr. recorder . and the jury hath found you a transgressour of the law. starkey . the letter of the law is this . that if any one of the queens subjects , shall transport himself beyond the sea , and shall in a seminary take orders , by authority derived from the see of rome , and shall return into england , and shall not present himself here to the ordinary , or else to such a certain number of justices of the peace within such a term , but shall seduce the kings leige people — mr. recorder . no that is another act. starkey . then he shall be adjudged a traitour . now mr. recorder i come to this , as i told you before , i had discovered a plot to the king that was designed against his person , state , and government , and did deliver into his hands eleven articles of treason , which i had writ with my own hands ; and this he hath owned , and will ▪ own so mr. recorder , upon this , i was threatned by those that were parties to the treason , that the king should not be gone twenty four hours , but i should be imprisoned . when the king went , what must i do ? must i stay there and hazard my life , or trust to the kings mercy ? i was forced to come along with the king for protection . i came to whitehall , and the king rose up and gave me his hand to kiss , and so did the duke of york , and told me i was welcome . i went to my lord chancellor hyde , who , when he saw me , embraced me in his arms , and said , thou art welcome , i am glad to see thee in england . i had occasion to speak with the bishop of london , dr. shelden about another person , and when i came to him , he asked me , what is your name ? my lord , said i , my name is starkey , with that he catches me fast by the hand , and when he had done that , he took me in his arms , and told me , i am glad with all my heart to see you safe here in england . and mr. recorder , i do suffer to this day for the service i have done the king. mr. recorder . mr. starkey , i can only say this to you , i do promise you faithfully , as i promised the other gentleman that went before , i 'le tell the king what you alledge . he is the best able to give an accompt of it , and is the fittest judge of his own mercy . but i could recommend to you , mr. starkey , a thing that would be very acceptable , and then as far forth as t is modest for me to speak , i am pretty well assured , i might say , i could prevail for mercy to you , that is , as you did discover one plot before , so you would discover this hellish plot that is now on foot . starkey . mr. recorder , i have wished many times that one of the commissions that are said to be delivered out , had been brought to me ; for he that had delivered me a commission , should never have delivered a second to any one else . mr. recorder . well , the king is the fountain of mercy , and he is the best judge of the fit objects of it . i will , as i said , tell him what you say . starkey . if the king does not own what i told you , then count me the greatest knave that ever was . mr. recorder . you remain now under the conviction of the law , what mercy the king , who is the fountain of mercy as well as of justice , will extend to you , is in his own power . starkey . then mr. recorder , i have another thing to offer to you , and that is the kings general and free act of pardon , made in the twenty fifth year of his reign , wherein he pardons all treasons , misprisions of treasons , felonies , and misprisions of felony , except what is excepted thereafter , and priesthood is not there excepted . mr. recorder . you know very well , that the proof of your treason hath been since the twenty fifth of this king , and within three years past . i presume you do not think that the kings act of pardon pardons all treasons past and to come , as the popes bull does sins . tye him up then . starkey . but how shall i do then , when i am lame ? i want a leg , and i must use my stick . mr. recorder . then let him alone . starkey . but i pray , good mr. recorder , will you be pleased before you give sentence upon me , to acquaint the king with what i have to say for my self . mr. recorder . no , i cannot do that , the kings pleasure is to be known afterwards . set lumsden aside , and set all the rest to the bar. then proclamation was made for silence , whilst judgment was a giving . mr. recorder . you the prisoners at the bar ; you have been severally accused , arraigned — starkey . mr. recorder , may i speak one word ? i have presented this year , wherein at the th . of this month i have been a prisoner , several petitions by my friends to the king , and desired to be transported ; for my age and infirmities and want of a leg did not stand well with my being in england these troublesom times . the king , i am told , hath promised i should , but i see no fruits of those petitions . and pray consider this , that i should have been imprisoned if i stayed out of england , and now to be prosecuted in england in this manner , and to be drawn , hang'd , and quartered is very hard . mr. recorder . whether it be true or not , god knows , i shall acquaint the king with it . it only remains with me to take notice of it for that purpose . and for my part i am sorry with all my heart to see so many persons brought to receive the sentence of death by my mouth . but i must say this , you your selves have been the occasion of it , and therefore must blame your selves for it . you have had the benefit of the best laws , the law of england , which gives every subject the liberty to make a defence for himself , when ever he is accused of any crime ; he hath the liberty to hear the witnesses what they say against him ; to call any witnesses for him , and to make defence for himself . and not only so , but he hath likewise twelve men upon their oaths , that are his peers , against whom he hath the liberty to make a challenge without shewing any reason , to a certain number ; and if it shall appear that any of them have the least prejudice or malice against any persons that are to be tried for their lives , to a greater number . such and so great is the benefit of the laws of england , beyond all the laws of any other nation in the world . but all these forms having been passed , and a jury of men , against whom you made no exception , having found you guilty of the offences for which you were indicted , there remains now nothing more with the court , but to pass that judgment of death upon you , which the law requires , and which is the business that lies upon me now . but before i do that , for i know you may think it a presumption , or at least a needless and unnecessary thing for me to take upon me , and give any directions to you , the business of whose profession it hath been to give precepts . however i think it is necessary for the satisfaction of some persons that are here present , that i should give them some accompt , why i think this law , and the putting it in execution at this time is not unreasonable . for it is to be known , that every subject of this realm by his being born within the dominions of the king , does owe an immediate allegiance to the king , and is to take notice by the law , that there is not any person hath any superiority over him ; for under god he is the supream head and gonour . and if any person born within the dominions of the king shall so far forget himself , and what he ows to the king by his birth , and that supremacy which he should maintain with his life and fortune , as to acknowledge any other forreign person to be supream , and to have a power to depose the king , and dispose of his dominions ( as every one does , that takes orders from the see of rome ) he cannot but be thought deserving of the greatest punishment . wherefore the wisdom of our nation , the parliament , at the time when they made the law , found that the religion established ( that religion which i hope in god will remain notwithstanding all the enemies it ever had or shall have ) was invaded by such priests as you : they found the life of the queen at that time in great danger , by the attempts of those persons whom they had made their proselytes , into whom they had infused principles , that it was no crime for them to depose their queen , since they had the authority of their pope to justifie the fact. and if once men can preach such doctrine , and also but prevail with their hearers to be of such a perswasion ; if care were not taken , we shall soon see an end of all sort of government , and of our religion too . but in as much as these principles were not so visibly endeavoured to be put in practice till of late times , though you were not permitted , but connived at , yet that is no reason but the occasion of making the law being revived , the execution of the law should revive with it . i suppose it is not unknown to any of us , that there hath been an hellish plot against the life of the king , and to destroy our religion , i would to god i could say the plot was at an end . for i must say , some of you , i fear , had too great a hand in it : and what a sort of monsters were prevailed upon to compass the same , by you that are priests and jesuits , who have wrought them up to such a belief , that murther in this world is a certain way to saintship in that which is to come . and though you seem to deny it , your practices are a proof of it beyond all contradiction , which is the reason that this law , which was a good law at the time of the making , and thought fit to be put in execution then , though it hath slept some time since , should now be put in execution against you , who have occasioned all those mischiefs to this nation in these latter times , which occasioned the making of the law. and one thing more i should say to that man , who pretends to merit by the good services he hath done for the publick , that he should injoin a man to scour his kettle , as he calls it , to receive the sacrament , and then give him a dispensation to be drunk , and make another so ; to promote a damnable design , is such a power of priesthood , fit only for the pope and his imps to put in practice . but to say no more ; in charity i am bound to compassionate your condition , which with all my soul i do , and heartily can say to you , i am sorry to see you in that misery ; it was in your own power to have prevented it ; but seeing you have made your selves obnoxious to the law , the only thing required of me , is to pronounce the sentence that that law hath decreed . and therefore in the name of the court , i do pronounce this to be your judgment . marshall . may i ask one question , mr. recorder , before you pronounce sentence ? mr. recorder . no , mr. marshall , you can't speak now ; but this is your judgment , and the court does award it , that you the several prisoners now at the bar , be conveyed from hence to the place from whence you came ; and that you and every of you be conveyed from thence on hurdles to the place of execution , where every of you are to be severally hang'd by the neck ; that you be severally cut down alive ; that your privy members be cut off , your bowels taken out and be burnt in your view ; that your heads be severed from your bodies ; that your bodies be divided into four quarters , which are to be disposed at the kings pleasure . and the god of infinite mercy , have mercy upon your souls . then the prisoners were carried away , and the court adjourned the sessions . finis . boteler's case being an impartial narrative of the tryal, & penitent behaviour of master uuilliam boteler, executed september th at chelmsford, about the murder of capt. wade : with the substance of a sermon preached on that occasion, and his last speech faithfully taken. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing b estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) boteler's case being an impartial narrative of the tryal, & penitent behaviour of master uuilliam boteler, executed september th at chelmsford, about the murder of capt. wade : with the substance of a sermon preached on that occasion, and his last speech faithfully taken. boteler, william, d. . [ ] p. printed for j. clarke, and p. brooksby, [london] : [ ?] place and date of publication suggested by wing. reproduction of original in bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng boteler, william, d. . -- trials, litigation, etc. trials (murder) -- england. dueling. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - jason colman sampled and proofread - jason colman text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion boteler's case . being an impartial narrative of the tryal , & penitent behaviour of , master vvilliam boteler . executed , september th . at chelmsford , about the murder of capt. wade with the substance of a sermon preached on that occasion . and his last speech faithfully taken . with allowance ; ro. l'estrange . printed for j. clarke , and p. brooksby . boteler's case . &c. thou art here christian reader presented with a candid and impartial relation of a deplorable tragedy , which yet the good hand of providence , that sometimes through seeming severities waits to be gracious , and calls sinners by inscrutable methods even at the eleventh hour , was pleased at last to crown with a blessed catastrophe , though waded unto through waters of marah , and frightful streights of an ignominious temporal death . the design of this publication is far from casting the least reflections or murmuring surmises on the judicial proceedings , owned by the deceased to be just and legal ; nor is it out of any over-bias'd fondness to his memory . for , alas ! the dead have no flattorers , and he is now ( we hope ) in glorious rest , regardless either of detraction or applause , as much beyond the good offices of friends , as malice of enemies . there are far more worthy reasons and useful motives , that seem not less to necessitate , than invite the divulging of these papers . — as first for the discovery of truth , and checking those swarms of different , yet equally false reports every where spread concerning this unhappy accident : the quality of the gentleman slain engaged a general pitty , and some ungrateful circumstances , a just and more than ordinary detestation against it's authour ; whence busie fame snatching up some partial rumours composed of dark probabilities , and many real mistakes , aggravated it to that hideous proportion ; that not onely the credulous vulgar ( who are neither able nor willing to examine things to the bottom , or distinguish a right ) became prepossessed ; but likewise some more intelligent , seem'd carried along with the impetuous torrent , and to disabuse such from undue impressions is but justice to the dead , and charity to the living : let malefactors suffer according to their demerits , yet still 't is below the generosity of a gentleman , and the dignity of a christian , to blacken any man's memory with feigned crimes , and groundless imputations : he that does not detect calumnies when he can , is tacitely guilty of them , and those that scatter slaunders on anothers tomb , deserve to have their own monuments sullied with ignominy . . a yet greater and most important inducement , is to promote gods glory by proclaiming the infiniteness of his love , the riches of his grace , and miraculousness of his power in working good out of evil , making destruction instrumental to conversion : sanctifying affliction , bringing a wretched soul to a sense of his misery : and ( as charity oblieges us to hope ) to a hearty sincere repentance not to be repented of ; if the blessed spirits of just men made perfect , and holy angels in heaven rejoyce at the conversion of a sinner ; ought not mortals on earth to remarque it , by magnifying the mercies of so good a god , and publishing his wondrous works , that the present and succeeding generations may celebrate them with due praises and thanksgivings . . nor can this certain and well known narrative but be highly useful ( if rightly improved ) to the readers ; ( especially such as were master boteler's acquaintance ) by way of caution and information ; you that were his friends ( and without reflection let me add , sometimes perhaps companions in riot and extravagance ) would you meet him again with joy in happiness ; imitate him then in his contrition and repentance ; you whose vitious practises have first prevailed to make you wish there were no future state of reward or punishment , and further continuance in sin so sear'd your consciences , stupesied your understandings , and degraded your reason : as with the fool in the psalmist , to say in your hearts there is no god : here you may behold how empty and idle , how pernicious and frightful , how loathsom and detestable such conceits appear ; when once serious apprehensions of death approach , opening the self-blinded eyes of the soul , and taking off those vain imaginations , which the depravity of nature , the inconsiderateness of youth , the madness of wine , or a proud fantastick humour of singularity have raised , and which tend no less to the disturbance and distraction of humane society in general ; than to the particular ruine and destruction , ( as well temporal as eternal , ) of all those that suffer themselves to be infatuated by them . as for the truth of what is here offer'd to publique view ; let me assure thee ( christian reader ! ) that there is nothing contained , but what was either found in mr. boteler's own hand-writing , solemnly declared by him as therein mentioned , taken from his dying lips , or known matter of fact ; all ready to be attested by worthy persons , ministers instrumental to his conversion , and attending him in his last agonies , or others of approved integrity : nay so conscienciously scrupulous has the collector been , that many remarkable expressions , though well remembred in substance , ( and which might much have embelisht these memoirs ) yet because not taken in the very words they were delivered in , are wholly omitted ; his aim in this undertaking not being at any private lucre or interest , but general satisfaction and edification . to which end , may his pains be sanctified by the divine blessing , and gratified by thy kind acceptance , serious perusal , and everlasting advantage . but we too long detain the greedy reader from matter of fact , to which we now proceed . master william boteler was born in northampton-shire , about the year . descended of an antient family , and in his youth liberally educated in litterature and exercises , tending to the accomplishment of a gentleman : since the present wars between the confederates and french , he went over , attending a person of quality into the campagn , and at the battel of seniffe , gave signal proofs of his courage ; where his patron unfortunately happening to be kill'd , the whole care and management of his stately funeral was left to him , who dispatcht the same with so much decency , gallantry , and fidelity , as much indear'd him to the deceased gentlemans relations : amongst whom he has past most of his time since in the north in very good repute ; till coming up to london ( the great randevous of business ) as a candidate of fortune , in expectation of some imploy : he suddenly and most unexpectedly met with that sad and disasterous fate ; which put a period to his life . the wicked instrument that drew this mischief upon him , was one parsons , a fellow of a debauched life and ill fame ; who having heretofore insinuated into the affections of one mr. wade , living in the county of essex , and not above four miles from the town of bishops-starfford , a gentleman of considerable quality , and captain of the train-bands : he was pleased commonly to entertain him at his house , assist him upon any occasions , and in a word had conferred many singular obligations from time to time upon him : but in july last a difference suddenly arising between them upon some small occasion , which is differently related , and nothing necessary to be known : high words past on either side , so long till captain wade call'd him thief or high-way-man ; and he in return gave the captain the lye , who was thereupon so far provoked as ( 't is said not without some blows ) to turn him out of his company : thus away goes parsons in a huff , meditating revenge , and coming up to london , concealing the quarrel , trepans mr. boteler down to bishops-starfford , and at length tells him the difference , that he was resolv'd to have satisfaction , withal requesting him to be his second : which boteler ( also declared at his death ) absolutely refuses , but is at last unhappily persuaded to go to captain wade , ( whom he had often seen in london , but had never been at his house ) and tell him how enraged parsons was , and that he staid then in such a meadow ; but withal offering his mediation to reconcile them ; but after a little way they parted . boteler declared further , that he parted with captain wade before the murther was committed , and saw him not afterwards ; but endeavour'd all he could to avoid his company ; we shall referr the more particular relation of circumstances to master boteler's solemn confession , taken after his condemnation by the high sheriffs chaplain , according to the honourable judges order , which he twice took the sacrament upon , and dyed in ; the true coppy whereof shall herein in it's due place be inserted . what is here inserted out of a tenderness to the memory of a true penitent , is not intended as any sort of reflection upon the honourable bench , the witnesses , or the jury : he himself at his execution acknowledging the sentence to have been just and legal : but however having satisfied publique justice in suffering according to the law ; and having also freely submitted both to the sentence , and to the punishment , it is lookt upon as an act of christian charity , to divide as far as the case will bear it , his crime from his misfortune . the evidences themselves agreeing with a great part of what he himself delivered , and not contradicting any part of the rest : but however so it was , that upon thursday the th . of july , he was arraigned at chelmsford assizes ; whereupon hearing of the evidence , he was brought in guilty . he behaved himself at his tryal with a very becoming modesty , protesting his innocency as to being present when they fought , or that he saw a sword drawn between them : but for further discovery of the truth , the ministers attending him , were commanded to press him to a full and candid confession of all circumstances : which he freely consented to , as follows . the confession of mr. boteler , after his condemnation , taken from him by the chaplain to the high sheriff , according to the honourable judges order . upon a strict and serious examination of the prisoner condemned , he humbly confessed as follows , viz. that parsons came to his lodging in london on the saturday morning ( july . ) and beginning to renew the former acquaintance betwixt them , ( mr. boteler haveing for a long time declined his company by reason of his being reported a common robber on the highway ) desired of him , that he would accompany him to mrs. ainsworths at bishops-starfford , where they would be merry , and take the country air ; which mr. boteler refused , assuring him that he was going into a course of physick for his health , and therefore not willing to leave the town ; however upon parsons's importunity , at last consented , and as they rode together ( not before ) he told mr. boteler , that captain wade , and himself had lately quarreled , and that the captain had call'd him theif , and given him such opprobrious language , that he could not put it up , but resolv●d to have satisfaction of him , and therefore if the captain would fight with seconds , desired mr. boteler he would do him the kindness to be his second ; but this mr. boteler absolutely refused , and told parsons he would rather endeavour to compose the difference , and make them friends , which if he could accomplish , it would not repent him of his journey , but he should be glad of the friendly office. they came to mistris ainsworths that night , and there lay , and also sunday night ; on munday morning parsons called up one of the servants early , and ordered him to make ready the horse he usually rode upon , and also one for mr. boteler , telling him he would show him a neighbouring park , which was very pleasant and worth seeing ; whereupon they rode out together ; in the way parsons told mr. boteler , it would then be a very fit time to know captain wades mind ; mr. boteler answered , it was most proper for him to go himself , and he would willingly go along with him , for he knew not the way alone ; parsons replyed , he was afraid to go to the captains house , least the servants should take an advantage of him , who knew very well he had lately quarreled with their master , but if he would go to the captains house , he would direct him the way , and wait his return in a field not far distant ; mr. boteler accordingly went , telling him at his departure that if he did not return in a short time , he should ride back again towards bishops-starfford , and he would follow him , mr. boteler came to the captains house , asked for him , and understanding he was at home , alighted from his horse , and was conducted by a servant into the house , who immediately acquainting his master , he not long after came down , and treated mr. boteler with great kindness and civilty , offering him a breakfast , which he refused , but drank with him , and in their discourse told him , he was concerned to hear there had been a quarrel betwixt him and parsons , and that he should think himself happy could he be an instrument to reconcile them : capt. wade answered in a passion , that parsons was a very ungrateful rogue , that he had affronted him and given him the lye twice , and he would never put it up ; mr. boteler replied , that if they both continued in such a heat , parsons demanding satisfaction for the opprobrious language given him , and he resolving on the other side not to pass by the affront offered by parsons , there was little hopes of a reconciliation ; captain wade then asked him where parsons was : mr. boteler answered , in a field not far off : then the captain demanded why he came not himself to his house ; he answered , because he feared his servants , or that himself would take advantage of the challenge ; capt. wade protested he scorned any thing of that nature , and then enquired of mr. boteler , whether parsons had not importun'd him to be his second ; he answered he had very earnestly desired it , but he altogether refused him , and therefore desired the captain he would forgive parsons and be reconciled : the captain solemnly protested he would not , but he would go and speak with parsons himself : which mr. boteler hearing , was very earnest with him , that in regard he was thus wheadled down by parsons , not knowing any thing of the difference , and yet might seem concerned in it , that he would put off the meeting of parsons for that day at least , and then if parsons resolved to fight , he would be a second to the capt. rather than to parsons ; but the capt. not hearkening thereunto , in a rage took up his sword , and told mr. boteler he would walk a little way with him , and so speak with parsons : mr. boteler desired him to desist , because being both in a heat danger might ensue : however the capt. went to the door with mr. boteler , who called for his horse , and would have immediately got up , but the capt. told him again he would willingly walk a little way with him , and then mr. boteler seeing he could not prevail , led his horse in his hand , and so they walked on together ; the capt. asking mr. boteler in the way , which field he had left parsons in , he pointed to the field , but desired the captain to retorn , which he absolutely refusing , mr. boteler told him , if he was resolv'd to go to parsons he would leave him , for he fear'd some mischief would , follow ; the capt. replyed , farewel then honest will , god bless thee , and so shook hands and parted : mr. boteler got on horse-back , and rode on gently towards bishops-starfford , and after he had rode half way , or thereabouts , parsons upon a swift gallop overtook him , and crying out to him onely , he is fallen , passed by him , and never stop'd till he came to bishops-starfford ; m. boteler rode after him , and when he came into mrs. ainsworths house , found her crying upon the bed , and parsons in the room with his boots on : no sooner did mr. boteler come in , but she cryed out , oh! mr. boteler , what have you done ? parsons hearing that , swore that mr. boteler was not near when they fought , and if the capt. were dead , he onely had kill'd him , and moreover that what he had done , be had done fairly : and having thus said , quitted the room , call'd for his horse , and rode away : mr. boteler after he was gone , thought it convenient for him to stay there , and whilst he was considering what to do in this case , mrs. ainsworth and her servant plainly told him he should not stay there ; and bringing the horse to the door , would not let him be quiet till they had prevailed with him to be gone , not suffering him to stay to take his coat and his other perriwig which he left behind . after he had rode four miles , or thereabouts , he saw parsons standing at a smiths shop , whilst his horse was shoo'd , having drop'd a shooe by the way : and after that riding a little way with parsons , ask't him the manner of their duel , who told him , that after they had chose a smooth green place at the end of a land , they made several passes at one another , and it was his fortune to break the captains sword , and then catching hold of his hand and wringing it behind him , he ask't whether he would beg his life ; the capt. saying he scorned it , he stab'd him into the breast , and so he fell : after he was fallen he thrust his own sword into the ground , and it breaking , he took the peice broke off , and whirl'd it from him , and so took horse and rid away . mr. boteler hearing this , told parsons he thought it not safe to keep him company , and desired him to ride on by himself : then said parsons , prethee will don't leave me , but let us ride together to london , and assure thy self if thou bee'st questioned , i will quickly clear thee and own the fact ; but mr. boteler still desired parsons to ride before , and then he did ; and mr. boteler kept at some distance from him in hopes to be left behind , but when he came to the green-man , parsons having dropt another shooe , staid there at the smiths , when mr. boteler came by , who seeing him there , took the way over hackney-marshes in hopes to loose him , and so they rode into london together ; when they came into drury-lane , where they set up their horses , mr. parsons sent for some women of his acquaintance ; and declared to them that he had fought a duel , and that mr. boteler was not near the capt. and himself when they fought , and if mr. boteler was call'd in question about it , he wisht that he might be struck blind and dumb , and many other horrid judgements befall him , if he did not surrender himself and own the fact . mr. boteler upon this left him , and went to his own lodging where he commonly lay before ; and the next day din'd with his friends at the usual ordinary , and being admonisht by a gentleman that had heard that he was search'd for by the hue and cry , sent immediately to secure parsons : but missing of him , was advised to take another lodging till parsons was taken : whereupon he went to a friends house , being an inn in bloomsbury , and being seiz'd by the constable and watch , at the first surprize betwixt sleeping and waking , deny'd his name , but afterwards confessed it , and protested his innocence , submitting to the officers , and so was brought to prison . this confession he solemnly made , declaring it to be the whole truth , as far as he was concerned in , or privy to the death of mr. wade , either before or after the same was committed ; and upon this he received the sacrament . and of the verity thereof there is this further probability , that he declared the very same to several friends upon his first apprehension , and all along to his death continued constant therein , without variation or contradicting himself in any circumstances , even to his death ; nor was any part thereof disproved by any of the witnesses , but several particulars confirm'd . being now under a sentence of death he began to consider his latter end ; and as by the christian charity of authority he was indulged a larger space of time than ordinary to fit himself for that great and dreadful change , so he improved those precious minutes most frugally to his spiritual advantage , by frequent converse with ministers , reading the holy scriptures , and other pious books ; and lest he should be tempted to mispend any part of his time vainly , or worse , instead of redeeming that which was past , which was now become his great business , as well as interest , he was very cautious of being spoken withal by any without first knowing their names ; so that if any of his old profane idle acquaintance came , he put off their impertinent visits by sending word of his being retired , and busie ; but with the ministers and others , whose discourse savoured of heavenly things , and tended to the edification of his soul ; he declared himself much delighted and refreshed in their society , yielding up himself to follow to his power all their wholsome directions : he was now much given to meditation and private prayer , mightily bewailing the wickedness of his past life , and magnifying god that had made him sensible of the danger he was formerly in : in a word , there appeared a perfect real change ; and that the reader may judge how happy a frame of spirit he was under , let him peruse the following engagement or covenant drawn up by mr. boteler himself , soon after his condemnation , and found in his own hand-writing in his book : the original remaining in the hands of a worthy minister , chaplain to a noble lord , whence this is faithfully copied . mr. boteler's solemn covenant with god , private-lately drawn up by himself , and found in his own manuscript . oh ! most dreadful god for the passion of thy son , i beseech thee , accept of thy poor prodigal , now prostrating himself at thy door ; i have fallen from thee by mine iniquities , and am by nature the son of death , and a thousand-fold more the child of hell by my wicked practises ; but of thine infinite grace , thou hast promised mercy to me in christ , if i will turn to thee with all my heart : therefore upon the call of thy gospel i am now come in , and throwing down my weapons , submit my self to thy mercy : and because thou requirest , as the conditions of my peace with thee , that i should put away my idols , and be at defiance with all thine enemies , whom i acknowledge i have wickedly sided with against thee ; i do here from the bottom of my heart renounce them all , firmly covenanting with thee , not to allow my self in any known sin , but conscientiously to use all means that i know thou hast prescribed for the death and utter destruction of all my corruptions : and whereas i have formerly inordinately and idolatrously let out all my affections upon the world , i do here resign my heart to thee that madest it , humbly protesting before thy glorious majesty , that this is the firm resolution of my heart , and that i do unfeignedly desire grace from thee , that when thou shalt call me thereunto , i may practise this my resolution , through thy assistance , to forsake all that is dear unto me in this world , rather than to turn from thee to the ways of sin ; and that i may watch against all its temptations , whether of prosperity or adversity , lest they should withdraw my heart from thee ; beseeching thee also to help me against the temptations of satan , to whose wicked suggestions i resolve by thy grace never to yield my self a servant ; and because my own righteousness is but as filthy rags , i renounce all confidence therein , and acknowledge that i am of my self a hopeless , helpless , undone creature , without righteousness or strength . and for as much as thou hast of thy bottomless mercy offered most graciously to me , wretched sinner , to be again through christ my god , if i would accept of thee , i call heaven and earth to record this day , that i do here solemnly avouch thee for the lord my god , and with all possible veneration , bowing the neck of my soul under the feet of thy sacred majesty , i do here take thee the lord jehovah , father , son , and holy ghost for my portion and chief good , and do give up my self , body and soul for thy servant , promising and vowing to serve thee in holiness and righteousness all the days of my life ; and since thou hast the lord jesus christ the only means of coming unto thee , i do here upon the bended knees of my soul accept of him as the only new and living way , by which sinners may have access to thee , and do here solemnly joyn my self in marriage-covenant to him . oh! blessed jesus ! i come to thee hungry and hard bested , poor and wretched , miserable , blind , and naked , a most loathsome polluted wretch , a guilty condemned malefactor , unworthy for ever to wash the feet of the servants of my lord , much more to be married to the king of glory ; but since such is thine unparallel'd love , i do here with all my power accept thee , and do take thee for my lord and husband , for all times and conditions , to love , honour , and obey thee before all others , and this to death ; i embrace thee in all thy offices , i do renounce my own worthiness , and do here own thee to be the lord my righteousness ; i renounce my own wisdom , and do here take thee for my only guide ; i renounce my own will , and take thy will for my law. and since thou hast told me i must suffer if i will reign ; i do here covenant to take my lot as it falls with thee , and by thy grace assisting to run all hazards with thee , verily confiding , that neither life nor death shall part between thee and me . and because thou hast been pleased to give me thy holy laws as rules of my life , and the ways in which i should walk to thy kingdom , i do here willingly put my neck under thy yoke , and set my shoulder to thy burthen , and subscribing to all thy laws as holy , just , and good ; i solemnly take them as the rule of words , thoughts and actions , promising , that though my flesh contradict and rebel , yet i will endeavour to order and govern my whole life according to thy directions , and will not allow my self in the neglect of any thing that i know to be my duty . only because through the frailty of my flesh , i am subject to many failings , i am bold humbly to protest that unallowed miscarriages , contrary to the settled bent and resolution of my heart , shall not make void this covenant , for so thou hast said . now almighty searcher of all hearts , thou knowest that i make this covenant with thee this day , without any known guile or reservation , beseeching thee , that if thou espyest any flaw or falshood therein , thou wouldst discover it to me , and help me to do it aright . and now glory be to thee , o god the father , ( whom i shall be bold from this day forwards to look upon as my god and father ) that ever thou shouldst find out such a way for the recovery of undone sinners ; glory be to thee o god the son , who hast loved me , and washed me from my sinns with thine own blood , and art now become my saviour and redeemer : glory be to thee o god the holy ghost who by the finger of thy almighty power hast turned about my heart from sin to god ; o dreadful jehovah , the lord omnipotent , father , son , and holy-ghost , thou art now become my covenant-friend , amen , so be it , and the covenant which i have made on earth , let it be ratified in heaven . will. boteler . having thus by sincere repentance , a lively faith , and hearty endeavors to work out his salvation with fear and trembling ; secured his eternal interests , his affections were wholly set on things above , so as to be little solicitous for , or about his temporal concerns , for though several of his friends did strenuously endeavour to obtain a pardon , ( or at least further reprieve ) yet he appeared freely willing to pay the forfeiture of his life , often sighing out his cupis dissolvi , and expressing a godly jealousy over his own heart , lest it should start back again to vanity : but at last the fatal day is prefixt for his execution , viz. munday the th . of september , the news whereof he received from mr. high-sheriff ( to whom for his many civilities he gratefully exprest his acknowledgments ) with an unmoved christian-courage , as tidings he had long expected , serving only to waft him out of the rageing straights of a sinful world into an ocean of bearitude ; so that having the day before devoutly again received the sacrament , and care being taken to have his funeral sermon preached before him alive on the morning of his execution ; he was about a clock conveyed to the church , where a numerous congregation being assembled , the minister before designed , and for whom mr. boteler himself had chosen the th . of micah and the th verse for his text on this occasion , being disabled by unexpected indisposition , another able divine supply'd the place , and after an excellent practical discourse from a very suitable scripture , viz. revel . . . the former part of the verse , repent , or else i will come unto thee quickly . towards the close , applyed himself to the particular solemnity in these words following . the latter part of the sermon preached at mr. boteler's execution . i have now done with my text , and must intreat your patience and attention , whilst i apply my self to this most unfortunate person before you , which is the sole occasion of this most sad and sorrowful solemnity : a person whom god hath thought fit to come upon , and surprize by a most dreadful visitation , a death whose very ignominious pomp and base formalities are most terrible and affrighting , to feeble , unconstant and starting nature ; and yet i have very great inducements to believe , that his natural courage , and christian fortitude , will make him both willing and able to drink of this bitter cup , which he acknowledges to be much sweetned by some circumstances in the mixture and preparation thereof . i must confess according to the common law of england , he hath had a very just sentence past upon him , and he hath often , with tears in his eyes , and groans in his expressions , bewail'd all the unlucky circumstances of that fatal concern , and hath also ( in sincerity i hope ) implor'd the almighties pardon and forgiveness for associating himself with that most ungrateful villain , who so barberously murthered his too kind , and over-obliging friend , and notwithstanding his solemn and frequent protestations to the contrary , suffers this miserable gentleman to pay the price of that blood , the guilt of which still blushes in the conceal'd murderers face , as being the true reflections of his accusing and convicted conscience , all which doth really demonstrate the over-whelming pressures of that heart , which could not but conscionably burst forth into a vocal confession of its own guilt . however , through goood report and bad report , the condemned is now hasting to his execution , and having received the holy sacrament as his strengthning and spiritual viaricum , is now in hopes through the conduct and security of his blessed saviours merits , to be brought through this red sea of blood , into the most glorious and satisfying land of promise ; he knows indeed it is a bitter passover , and must be eaten with sowre herbs , but still desires to remember it is the lord 's passover , and therefore hopes he shall not think of the herbs , nor be angry with the hands that gathered them , but rather look up to him only in whose power it is to institute that , and also to govern these , being assur'd that all misfortunes upon earth , are permitted by him who is supream in heaven , and that all these little and inconsiderable motions in nature , are mov'd and guided by the great and irresistable wheel of providence . i cannot but acknowledge myself plac'd here as the faint eccho of this dying person , and therefore t is but fit i repeat that , which he desired might be part of his last words , and the subject of my present discourse , had i had a convenient time alotted for a matter of so great weight and importance . hear then ( i beseech you ) hear this dying penitent , breaking forth into the pathetical words of the church , spoken by the prophet , mic. . . . . rejoyce not against me , o mine enemy , when i fall , i shall arise , when i sit in darkness , the lord shall be a light unto me ; my shameful fall will be my glorious rise , this little darkness upon nature , and shadow of death , i am now about to pass through , will be but an happy entrance and passage into everlasting light and brightness ; now in full assurance of this , give me sir , leave to exhort you , who are now going to suffer , to persevere and continue stedfast to the end , and to be constant to the last gaspe , in your devout and pious resolutions , that you would bear with patience the indignation of the lord , consider the rod and who hath appointed it . let me prevail with you heartily and sincerely to forgive that enemy , leaving that vindication of your self to that great god to whom vengeance belongeth , you may resolve to dy in that christian charity , which must compleat your sincere and acceptable repentance . to conclude , let me further exhort you , seriously to consider , that you are passing from the church to the last scene of your fatal tragedy , and therefore in the midst of every preparative and religious exercise , let the thoughts of dying at the next instant , heighten your zeal and vigor , quicken your graces and vertues , and highly inflame your devotion : marriners who foresee a storm or tempest ready to encounter them , begin then to use their utmost art and diligence to secure themselves , and cry loud to their gods for assistance , as they did in the ship that carried jonas . and thus whilst you with seriousness , contemplate on your sudden and succeeding execution , whilst you are offering up your last prayers , you cannot but be earnest with god to save you from perishing , you cannot but cry mightily , and beg heartily that you may take hold on that secure plank , your saviour's cross , which may carry you to your desired haven , that you may be thrown upon christ , the rock of your salvation , & so escape eternal shipwrack ; that you may be hid in the clefts of his wounds , till your heavenly father's wrath is gone & passed over : the very meditation of that ignominious death which your god thought fit you should at this time suffer , ( considering also what your saviour hath suffered before you ) ought to enliven your faith , strengthen your patience , inflame your love , confirm your hope , & will then carry you out of a pleasing contemplation into a perfect enjoyment of the blessed vision , into that impassible state of eternal joy & felicity , where there shall be no more doubts , nor fears , no more troubles nor distractions , no more sorrow , nor crying , nor pain , to which god of his infinite mercy , &c. from the church the prisoner walkt on foot to the usual place of execution , marching to meet the king of terrors , with the courage of a roman shall i say ? nay rather the fortitude of a christian : for indeed he only can look death in the face undauntedly , upon solid grounds , who knows that his redeemer liveth , without this the flower of nature shrinks and droops at the sight of a chilly grave : for when others brave it , their unconcernedness is the effect only of stupidity , or a feaverish passion ; let them but consider it in cool blood , and they shall be ready with the emperour adrian in a fit of trembling and perplexity to cry out : o animula vagula , blandula hospes ; comesque corporis quae nunc abibis in loca pallidula ; rigida , nudula , nec , ut soles , dabis joces . on the contrary , here you might behold a staid and even resolution , equally void of womanish fear , or hectorly impudence , that shew'd a due consideration of the weighty errand he was going about , & that upon true measures he could bear with the difficulties of the way out of a sense and comfortable prospect of his journeys end : and now too might you see the most marble-hearted spectators in all the numerous croud to melt at their eyes , and compassion to seize the most obdurate breasts . being arriv'd at the place ▪ where he was to suffer , he mounted two or three rounds of the ladder , and thence with a modest look , and chearful voice spake as follows : the last confession , or speech of mr. boteler at place of execution . gentlemen : i have very great reason to believe , that i shall die here with as little pity , and as much malice as ever any did ; but i beg of you to hear the words of a dying man , who within a few minutes must go out of this world. in the first place , as to the thing i suffer for , i am very well satisfied , and am content to die , believing that i die justly and righitously by the law of the land ; but as touching the murder of mr. wade , i am not guilty ; parsons came to me , and desired me to go to mr. wade , to tell him that he was in such a place , and would speak with him , which i was loath for to do ; but upon his perswasions i went to him . ( this captain wade i never had any malice or envy in my heart against in my life , nor any provocation from him ) but , as i said , i went to him , and told him that parsons was resolved not to put up the affront he had given him : i told him also that parsons was in a field in such a place : i said , sir , i am sorry that parsons hath any thing against you , that he is so enrag'd ; he desired me to go with him to the field , and shew him where parsons was , for he would go to him : but i was unwilling to go with him , and more than once desired him to let me be gone , that i might not be concern'd one way or other , desiring him likewise to forbear , or at least defer meeting , to see if a reconciliation might not be had , and if afterwards parsons would fight with seconds , i would serve him rather than parsons : but he would needs have me go forth of his house with him ; so i walk'd with him a little way , and then i said , fare ye well , sir , god bless you . and he said , god bless thee , honest will , and so we parted . i do declare that i never saw them near one another , nor any sword drawn . if any thing lies upon my conscience , it is this , ( and i have laid it before the lord with humility , and am satisfied that god hath pardon'd it through the merits of christ ( that i should be an occasion to bring him out of his house , whereby he came to his end . i do declare , that parsons told me both before and when he was come to london , that he did believe the captain was not dead . but i have very justly deserved a greater death than this , by my many sins that i have committed against god , and i do desire that my fall may be to the saving of many a man here . my wickedness was great , i was come to meer atheisme , i did not beleive there was a god , but liv'd in continuual practice of sin ; going to bed prophaning of his holy name , and rising again with curses in my mouth , let all that hear me this day repent , and not forget the lord that made them . i was educated like a gentleman ( as many do know ) and very well brought up as to religion , but i had left all that , and kept bad company , and was drawn in only as you have heard , but you see , he that did the fact is escaped , and i must dye . now i desire that every one that lives , and sees me here , may take example by me , who am going out of this world within a few minutes ; there is never a one here , but does provoke the almighty every minute to cut him off , were not his mercies infinite ; and i can freely lose this life , confessing i have deserved an eternal death , yet i believe through the merits of my dear saviour that he will receive me immediately into glory . now there is another aspersion that is cast upon me , that i was a high-way robber , and i do declare , that i never had any such design , never was of any gang to that purpose , nor ever saw any man robb'd that i remember in all my life . as touching the bloody coat that people judge i did the act in , i do declare that it was done by my being let blood , and that six or seven weeks before the murder was committed , as many gentlemen can witness , nor had i that coat on then . another thing i would clear that was cast upon me , which is , that i was a roman catholick , but i do declare that i am not , but am a protestant and of the church of england , though one of the least and worst thereof . now i have done , and leave it to you , whether you will beleive the words of a dying man or no ; for how could i expect to be saved , if i should go out of the world with a lye in my mouth . i pray god of heaven freely to forgive parsons , that hath brought me to this , and to give him to consider what he hath done , and grant him repentance for it , and to have mercy on his soul . but though i dye i am confident that he will clear my innocency , but i find that i was so little believed , that people thought i would say any thing to save my life . and now i desire you all to joyn with me in prayer to almighty god to forgive me my sins , to have mercy upon me , and to save my soul . so he kneeled down to prayer , and prayed very affectionately , humbly , and enlargedly , with much brokenness of heart , and such pathetical expressions , that , being not exactly taken , it would be injurious to represent them with the least variation from his own words , then a minister went to prayer with him , and after he had prayed to god again in few words , he then rise up and said , the god of heaven bless you all , and when he was on the ladder , he said . the lord jesus christ have mercy on me , then the hangman asking him to forgive him , he answered , oh with all my soul i forgive thee ; and then last of all gave the signal of his innocency that he promised to the minister , by clapping his hands , and said , jesus christ receive my soul , and so was turned off . there were present a great many persons of quality ; and a vast number of common people , but so affecting was his language and behaviour , extorting tears from his very enemies , so that scarce any there but wept , and bewaild his untimely end , as if he had been one of their own relations : his body in a fair cofin was convey'd back to chelmsford , and that evening decently buried , being atttended to the church with a very numerous company . considering the original occasion of all this sad tragedy , wherein these two gentlemen so unfortunately lost their lives one in the field by the sword of an ungrateful villain , and the other by the hand of justice ; i know not how i can more usefully close this narrative , than with a few words against the mischievous humour of duels , t is most strange how such an unreasonable , brutish and bloody custome should so far prevail against the laws , as still to be accounted brave and honourable , as if a gentleman were obliged to hazard his life , or forfeit his honour at the pleasure of every desperate ruffin ; that honor is too thin and brittle , that a foolish rash word can pierce ; t is certainly a dear purchas'd conquest , that stains a man with the deserved title of a murderer , a sorry triumph where the conqueror must either run away and hide his head , or ignominiously fall a sacrifice to expiate the guilt of his victory ; does not he who denies that he can be wrong'd more nobly , then he who confesses that he is both subject to wrongs , and hath received so great an one that he cannot but pursue its revenge , he who conceals his wrong , is only wrong'd in private , whilst he who revenges his wrong , is wrong'd in publique , and certainly the publike wrong is more ignoble ; and seeing we conceive our selves concern'd in honour to punish such as would divulge an affront that was smother'd as soon as given , we cannot but be said to wrong our own honour , when we in seeking revenge , proclaim such wrongs as had else either vanisht , or been lessen'd by the concealment . thus have i heard of a prudent old man , at whose bald head a rotten orange being thrown , in the street , clapt his hat upon 't , and said , i shall spoil that knaves sport , who expected to see me come shewing my head all besmear'd over , and complaining of the injury : t is one of the most picquant revenges to undervalue our enemies , so far as not to think them worthy of our notice ; and we shew our selves to be greater then they , when we let the world see , that they cannot trouble us , when children and natural foolls , or mad men do the same things that we fret at in others of more advanced years , and understanding , we pass them without a frown ; which shews , that it is not the acts done us by our enemies , but our own resentment , which in effect injures us ; he who pardons , proclaims he fears not his enemies for the future , but revenge implies apprehensions of what we desire on that account to lessen ; thus cowards are generally cruel , never counting themselves secure till their enemies have lost all capacity to resist : in revenge we act the executioner , but we personate a prince when we pardon , in the one we bestow a favour , and so are noble , in the other we discover our infirmity . may such considerations or ( if reason cannot be heard ) at least such direful examples , as this we have here impartially presented the world with prevail , for the future to abate this wicked custome , grounded on fantastick punctilio's of honour , generally promoted on trifling , shameful occasions , alwayes attended with black and fatal consequences , and chiefly practised by those that may justly claim the least share in the noble vertues of real magnanimity and fortitude . pascitur in vivis livor , post fata quiescit . finis . a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly at a sessions there held on wednesday the th of january / . giving a full account of the true tryal and sentence of lodowick muggleton for blasphemous words and books. as also the tryals and condemnation of a vvoman for killing her bastard-child; and of a man for personating another person in giving bayl before a judge. with an account how many are condenmed, burn'd in the hand, to be whipt, and transported. with allowance. roger l'estrange. approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing t estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly at a sessions there held on wednesday the th of january / . giving a full account of the true tryal and sentence of lodowick muggleton for blasphemous words and books. as also the tryals and condemnation of a vvoman for killing her bastard-child; and of a man for personating another person in giving bayl before a judge. with an account how many are condenmed, burn'd in the hand, to be whipt, and transported. with allowance. roger l'estrange. england and wales. court of quarter sessions of the peace (london) p. printed for d.m., london : / . copy has print show-through. reproduction of the original in the guildhall library, london. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng muggleton, lodowick, - -- early works to . trials -- england -- early works to . crime -- england -- early works to . criminals -- england -- early works to . murder -- england -- early works to . blasphemy -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a true narrative of the proceedings at the sessions-house in the old-bayly , at a sessions there held on wednesday the th of january / . giving a full account of the true tryal and sentence of lodowick muggleton for blasphemous words and books . as also the tryals and condemnation of a vvoman for killing her bastard-child ; and of a man for personating another person in giving bayl before a judge . with an account how many are condemned , burn'd in the hand , to be whipt , and transported . with allowance . roger l'estrange . london : printed for d. m. / . the proceedings at the sessions in the old bayly , on wednesday the th of this instant january / . not to trouble the reader with a tedious relation of things trivial or impertinent , the most considederable or remarkable transactions of this sessions were as follows . first , the tryal of that grand and notorious impostor lodowick muggleton , of whom to give the world a brief account , we must acquaint you , that he was originally a journyman-taylor , and ( some say ) afterwards kept a botchers stall ; but having a strange enthusiastick head , began about the year , to enter into confederacy with one reeves ( another brother of the sheers ) who resolve to cut out a new scheme or fashion of religion ; and to that purpose declare themselves , the two last vvitnesses of god that ever should be upon the earth ; and that they had absolute and irrevocable power to save and damn whom they pleas'd ; to which end one call'd himself the blessing , the other the cursing prophet . and the said reeves dying some years since , muggleton pretends his spirit was left with him , and the whole power of witnessing , blessing , and cursing , devolved into his hands , which he as impiously practised upon the least affront or opposition ; pronouncing persons damn'd by their particular names , blasphemously adding , that god , angels , or men could not afterwards save them . and as all hereticks covet to be authors and ring-leaders to a sect , so by divers printed books and corner conferences , he easily seduced divers weak and instable people ( especially of the female-sex ) to become his proselytes , who from him call themselves muggletonians : so impossible it is for the wildest and most senseless , as well as most impious notions , when broached with impudence among the rabble , not to meet with some heads so irregular as to embrace them for serious truths , or divine revelations . this muggleton's house being searched about august last , a great quantity of his books were seized , some of which , it was now proved , he owned the writing of , and that he had caus'd them to be printed ; for which he was now indicted , many wicked passages out of them being recited in the indictment , but so horrid and blasphemous , that we think fit to spare the christian modesty of each pious ear , by not repeating the same here , where there is no necessity for it . the prisoner pleaded not guilty , but frustrated the general expectation , by saying nothing further either to excuse or justice himself , but had a counsel appear'd for him , who ingenuously declar'd himself asham'd to speak a word in favour of such a cause ; onely desired the court to take notice , that the books were dated before the last act of grace ; but it being usual to antedate or post-date titles of books , as best suits with the publisher's interest , and that he had since that act owned and published the same , that plea was over-rul'd ; and the said muggleton being found guilty by the jury , was afterwards sentenced by the court to stand three days in the pillory at three the most eminent places of the city , with papers shewing his crime ; and his books so seized , divided into three parts , to be burnt over his head upon the pillory : and besides , to be fined five hundred pound , and to continue in goal till the same be paid , and afterwards for his life , unless he procured good bail , such as the court should accept of , and not of his own gang , faction , or sect , for his being of the good behaviour . the next was a woman of about forty years of age , and one that had six children by a husband since dead , but was , it seems , still of too youthful a temper ; for being lately deliver'd , by her self , of a bastard-child on a wednesday-morning , she most barbarously murthered it by crushing the head , and wounding it both in the scull and eyes ( as is supposed ) with a pair of sizzars , and then fairly puts it into a platter and sets it upon a shelf , where it continued till saturday-morning , when a woman lodging above her in the same house , coming down to visit her , and examining her more strictly , by reason of some symptoms the observed , she now prisoner confess'd she had miscarried , and looking for the embryo they found a perfect child murthered , as you have heard . she pretended her self distracted when the fact was done ; but it appearing that she had sense enough to endeavour to conceal it , she was convicted and condemned a man was likewise condemned to die for a kind of unusual crime , but such as the law , by reason of its bad example and mischievous tendency , has thought fit to restrain with capital punishment ; which was , that there being a suit at law depending between two persons , the prisoner comes and personating another man , is bayl for one of the parties before a judge ; upon which afterwards the man whose name he had assumed knowing nothing of the business , was taken up , to his great damage , &c. he begg'd heartily for transportation , but it could not be granted . four bayliffs and followers were arraigned by one they went to arrest , who pretended to have lost some odde trifles ; but they were not found guilty . two persons were condemned to die , two burn'd in the hand , and two sentenced to be whip'd : and so the sessions ended with the day . finis . an historical narrative of the german princess containing all material passages, from her first arrivall at graves-end, the th of march last past, untill she was discharged from her imprisonment, june the sixth instant. wherein also is mentioned, sundry private matters, between mr. john carlton, and others, and the said princess; not yet published. together with a brief and notable story, of billing the brick-layer, one of her pretended husbands, coming to new-gate, and demanding of the keeper her deliverance, on monday the eighth instant. written by her self, for the satisfaction of the world, at the request of divers persons of honour. carleton, mary, ?- . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing h estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an historical narrative of the german princess containing all material passages, from her first arrivall at graves-end, the th of march last past, untill she was discharged from her imprisonment, june the sixth instant. wherein also is mentioned, sundry private matters, between mr. john carlton, and others, and the said princess; not yet published. together with a brief and notable story, of billing the brick-layer, one of her pretended husbands, coming to new-gate, and demanding of the keeper her deliverance, on monday the eighth instant. written by her self, for the satisfaction of the world, at the request of divers persons of honour. carleton, mary, ?- . , [ ] p. printed for charles moulton, london : . preface signed: mary carlton. reproduction of the original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng carleton, mary, ?- -- early works to . rogues and vagabonds -- early works to . trials (bigamy) -- england -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - celeste ng sampled and proofread - celeste ng text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an historicall narrative of the german princess , containing all material passages , from her first arrivall at graves-end , the th of march last past , untill she was discharged from her imprisonment , june the sixth instant . wherein also is mentioned , sundry private matters , between mr. john carlton , and others , and the said princess ; not yet published . together with a brief and notable story , of billing the brick-layer , one of her pretended husbands , coming to new-gate , and demanding of the keeper her deliverance , on monday the eighth instant . written by her self , for the satisfaction of the world , at the request of divers persons of honour . london , printed for charles moulton , . most noble , generous , and vertuous ladies and gentlewomen , i am not ignorant what great advantage the frequent false reports of my actions and demeanours hath given to the dishonour of our sex : let me tell you , i had rather chuse to be dissolved into attoms , then justly to deserve to be the occasion of any such thing . i therefore adventured upon this collection , to evince to the world , the falshood and insufficiency of the designs against me . there is no person of understanding , but may easily discern and conclude as much as i desire for vindication of my self from those things my enemies aspersed me with , or that have lately been upon the stage . he who was first the contriver and promoter of the false suggestions against me , coming to visit me within one hour after the just sentence of not guilty , i told him , if the modesty of my sex would permit me , i would require the comba●e of him to appear in the field . i look'd upon him but as a base detractor : i required his retiring from my presence : he obeyed . his looks represented his guilt . i could mention him , but it 's below me to take notice of him , further then to know him for a villain . but it being the opinion of all philosophers and divines , as well ancient as modern , that detraction is the chief branch of envy , which is nourished by lying , by which people of honest conversation are grievously wounded . — diogenes the cinick being ask'd , what beast bit most deadly ? answered , amongst furious and wild beasts , none like the detractor . — and amongst tame and gentle beasts , none like the soother and flatterer . — themistocles the thebane , upon the same occasion , said , there was no greater pain nor misery in the world , then to behold the honour or credit of an honest or good man or woman to be in the mercy of a venomous tongue , and to be tortured by detracting speeches . a spanish author that i have seen , hath this saying , that all nations do observe it as a law , that a dissolute life in men , is not held to be such a vice as in women : that let a report passe of a woman , true or false , irreparably she lyeth under infamy . therefore i do imagine , that our ancestors were so prudent , that in the instituting of several orders of knights , they had still in charge , that they should defend innocent ladies . and i never read of any knight that undertook a distressed ladies quarrell , but he vanquished and overcame . that example of valentinus barnthius , a native of toledo in spain , in his history , wherein he mentioneth a daughter of one of the kings of england , that was married to the duke of saxony and prince of piedmont , she not yielding to the immodest sollicitation and request of pancalier , whom the duke her husband had left as his lieutenant in his absence , whilest he was busied in the warrs of france ; the count imposed on her , the crime of adultery : for confirmation ( wanting other proof ) he required the combat of any that should gainsay his assertion . the which was accepted by a knight of the noble house of mendoza ; who slew him , notwithstanding many disadvantages of a late sickness , of his long travel , and disproportion of his strength and stature , &c. francis the first of that name , king of france , granted the combat to castaigneray and the lord jarnac ; castaigneray having by words dishonoured a lady , that was by blood allied to jarnac : in the opinion of all persons , castaigneray by reason of his often combats , strength , judgment in arms , and the use of weapons , would be too hard for the lord jarnac ; yet the lord jarnac slew him : the which convinced all the spectators , that the innocency of the lady influenced the sword of jarnac . many other stories of like nature i could instance , but i shall conclude with this : sure there is none will a woman deprave , unless he be a coward or a knave . i do not mention these stories , to reflect upon any of the english gallants , for not taking part in my cause , i at first apprehended i needed it not ; and now do much lesse need it : for that my enemies by their insufficient prosecution , made way for the world to conclude my innocency . but i may in some sort complain of my husband , who wore a sword by his side , and yet could suffer me to be stript of my necessary rayment . but instead of that civil defence , the least of kindnesses he might have afforded me , that had enjoyed all hymen's rites with me so lately before that tragick-part , he encountreth me with a volume of one sheet in quarto , wherein he hath these passages , that i by my parts deluded him . in answer to which , he deluded me by his pretences . reader , thou shalt receive them from his own pen ; in his epistle to the said work , he hath this passage , i shall not give my self the trouble , to recollect and declare the severall motives and inducements that deceitful but wise enough woman used to deceive me with , &c. in page the h he saith , her wit did more and m●re ingage me and charm me : her qualities deprived me of my own : her courteous behaviour , her majestick humility to all persons , her emphaticall speeches , her kind and loving expressions ; and amongst other things her high detestation of all manner of vice , as lying , &c. her great pretence to zeal in her religion ; her modest confidence and grace in all companies , fearing the knowledg of none ; her demeanour was such , that she left no room for suspition , not only in my opinion , but also in others both grave and wise . some other things he insists upon , as his undertaking to tell the story of the management of the business betwixt us ; in which he is so far from doing me justice therein , that he wrongeth me and his own soul by lying . for confutation of which , i refer the reader to the ensuing discourse ; only there is one passage that i am unwilling to let slip , that is in page the th , he saith , that my father was in town upon my commitment , and did acknowledg me to be his daughter , and that i had playd many such tricks . it 's strange this father of mine could not be produced at the tryal , if that had been true ; as strange it was , that the jury-man himself ( that was one of the jury upon the tryal of mary mauders ) that they produced , who seemed to be a man of conscience and judgment , could not swear nor say , that i was the mary mauders alias stedman . but i wave all ; and make it my request to all ladies and gentlewomen , seriously to consider the whole ensuing discourse : the which if done , i may rest confident , that there is none but will set a hand to the erecting my reputation to a higher pitch , then from whence my detracting enemies endeavoured to depress it . from my lodging , june , . ladies and gentlewomen , yours in all submissive observance , mary carlton . epimenides the philosopher being asked by the rhodians , what that virtue called truth was , answered , truth is that thing , whereof ( more then all others ) the gods do make profession , and the virtue that illuminateth the heaven and the earth , maintaineth justice , governeth , preserveth , and protecteth a state or kingdom , and cannot indure any wicked thing near it ; also it maketh all doubtful and ambiguous matters clear and apparent . the corinthians also demanded of chilo the philosopher , what truth was ? said , it was a sure gage and standard , to measure all things by it who neither diminisheth at one time , nor increaseth at another : it s a buckler , a shield that can never be pierced : it s an army never danted , a flower that never faileth , a haven that none shall perish in , or suffer peril . the lacedemonians inquisitive after this rare virtue , importuned anaxachus to delineate truth to them ; he drew its portraicture in these fair , lines , viz. truth is a perpetual health and welfare , a life without ending , an unguent that healeth all misfortunes , a sun always shining , that never suffereth by eclipse , a gate never shut , a journey in which none can wax weary : it s a virtue , without which all strength is feebleness , and infirmness it self ; wisdom , folly , and madness : without it , patience is but a counterfeit , and liberty but a prison . augustus caesar , in the triumphs that he made for mark anthony , and cleopatra , brought with him to rome a priest of egypt , aged years , that was famous for not telling a lye in his whole life ; the senate ordered his statue to be erected , and himself to be high-priest . in the time of the emperour claudius , there dyed at rome one pamphilus , that was upon good ground suspected never to have told truth all the days of his life ; he , by the emperour's order , was denyed buriall , his house to be razed , his goods confiscate , in detestation of so venomous a beast , who was so suspected , that when by accident he did speak truth , the hearers suspected their own knowledge . i am not to insist upon this theam ; but truth is an amiable and delightful thing ; it hath been no less my deliverer , then it was my sanctuary ; its precepts will i observe in this ensuing discourse , that as to matter of fact i will have due regard , that time nor envy shall have no advantage against me , to detect me in any particular or material circumstance : my ambition never tempted me to write a history of my life , but my necessity hath constrained me to give you a history of part of my life ; that is to say , from the first time of my l●st coming into england ; for that the world yet never had an exact account of what passed between me , and mr. john carleton , now my husband by the law of england , unto which we are both subjects . i having been at colen , the place of my nativity , from thence for dispatch of some affairs of mine , i went to vtrick , from thence to the brill , where i took shipping in a small vessel bound for england , and landed at graves-end the th of march last past , in the evening , and came in the tilt-boat from thence to london , betimes the next morning : in the company that were passengers , there was one a parson , for so his habit did be speak him , who offered me the civility of a glass of wine ; but it being so early , we passed several taverns , and could not procure admittance , from billings-gate , until we came to the exchange-tavern against the stocks , kept by one mr. king ; the door being open , and mr. king in the bar counting of brass farthings , the parson askt him , if we might have a pint of wine ; mr. king replyed , that we might : a pint of rhenish wine , and a pint of sack was c●lled for ; and during the drinking of it , the parson offering to kiss me , i refused : mr. king perceiving that i did not much like the parsons company , came in , and entertained me in discourse ; askt me , if i was a stranger ; i told him , yes , i came from colen in germany ; and mr. king said , since it was so early , that i could not go with conveniency to seek a lodging , if i pleased to repose my self for a time , his house was free ; that although it was a publike house , yet he had not overmuch to do in it , i might be assured , it was a civil house , and that he had a kindness and a pity for strangers ; and moreover added , to his courteous discourse , his care of me , saying , that if i had a charge , i should have a care , for the town was full of wickedness , and that i might have some trick put upon me . i thankt him , and told him , that i had a charge ; that i was so much a stranger , that i had no where to go unto that i knew of at present ; but where e're i went , i had wherewith to defray my charges . mr. king said , his house should be at my service . i answered him , that i lookt upon him as a civill person . i took my leave of the parson , and upon mr. kings invitation , went to my chamber , parcel of his house that he had alotted me for my appartment : returning mr. king many thanks for his civility , i took my leave of him also : he told me , that his wife should wait upon me when i rose . let the world judge , if it be probable that i could design any thing to insnare mr. carleton , when at my accidental coming into that house , nothing could be more remote from my thoughts or apprehension , then he was ; or then that which hapned afterwards . by what i shall further say , i doubt not but to undeceive the world , and demonstrate , that they designed against me : and whether i have that estate they dreamt of , it is not material ; i am not much to be blamed , if i have it , and conceal it , since they have pursued me in that envious sort , of which the world is witness . well , when i rose about of the clock , mistris king , the mistriss of the house , attended me ; i was furnished with all respect with what i askt for , or what was necessary : after which , i applyed my self to writing of my letters , sent them away by the post beyond the seas , wherein i gave instructions , for the managing of those affairs that concerned me . wednesday the first of april , mrs. king made a great feast , where were divers persons of quality , as she said , amongst the rest , her brother mr. john carleton . at this entertainment , mrs. king did advise me to call her cozen , the which i did . thursday the d of april , mr. john carlton came in his coach , with two foot-men attending of him , calling him my lord , and mistriss king did also call him my lord. with that i askt mrs. king , if it was not the same person that din'd with us yesterday ; she said , true , it was so , but he was in a disguize then , and withall , that in a humour he would often do so : but , saith she , i do assure you he is a lord. upon that i replyed , then his father must be an earl , if living . she affirmed , that he was a person of great honour . the same time my lord presented me with a rich box of sweet-meats : i could do no less then thankfully accept thereof . my lord came every day afterwards to mr. kings , and by his importunity would carry me abroad in a coach to holyway and islington . mrs. king would often ask me , what my lord did say to me ; i told her , nothing that i observed , but his lordship abounded in civility-mixt with complements . how , said she , madam , he loves you . loves me , for what mistriss king , i replyed . she said , for your great parts and endowments . i asked her , how my lord could tell that i had either . she said , my lord could see within me . i answered , that my lord must have very good eyes , if he could see within me , or else i must be very transparant . after which , i did order the matter so , that his access to me was not so easie : mistriss king importuneth me to admit my lord to visit me ; i told her plainly , that i did not understand his lordships meaning . he provided me a great banquet , at which his lordships mother was very fine drest , who questioned what i was . i told my lord , that i had received civilities from him , and he had the like from me , and that i had no necessity to give any account to any person what i was , for any thing that i intended ; and that if any design or affair of his required any such thing out of conveniencie or otherwise , he might forbear it . his lordship excused his mothers inquisitions , by saying , she was his mother , and that parents did think themselves concerned , in looking after the good of their children . but ( said he ) madam , wave all this , however i will marry you to morrow . what ( said i ) my lord , without my consent : my lord , i desire your lordship not to come near me any more , i will not lye under such questioning and scrutinie : your lordship will be safe in following my advice , in not coming at me at any more . upon this his lordship wept bitterly ; i with-drew my self from his presence : he writ a letter of high complements to me ( the which letter perished in the storming and taking of my out-works , by the forces of mr. george carleton , my husbands father : ) . at the same time i had a gown making upon my own account by mistriss kings taylor in the strand , i took a coach and went thither ; all this while the young lord , not knowing where i was , remained impatient untill my return , where i found him standing at the bar ( not the bar his lordship was afterwards pleased to be one of the instruments to make me stand at ) at the exchange-tavern , and suddainly claspt about my middle , and violently carryed me to my chamber . i asked his meaning : he answered , that i had forbid him my presence ; that it had almost made him mad ; that he desired nothing more of me , then but to let him look upon me . upon that he did , with a very strange jesture , fix his eyes upon me : in compassion to him , i askt him what his lordship meant , and intended ; he replied in a kind of discomposed manner , i would have you to be my wife . i answered him , my lord , i rather think you have courted me for a mistris then for a wife : i assure you , that i will never be a mistris to the greatest of princes , i will rather chuse to be a wife to the meanest of men . upon which , he uttered divers asseverations in confirmation of the reality of his intentions , and earnest desire of the honour in making me his wife , without any respect to what i had . the next day being saturday easter eve , the taylor brought me my gown to my lodging , i being drest and adorned with my jewels , he again renewed his sute to me , with all importunity imaginable ; and a little before that time , having intercepted my letters , and understanding how my estate did lie , he and all his friends renewed their sute to me , to give my consent to marry the young lord : his courteous mother is now most forward , pressing me to consent , by telling me , that she should lose h●r son , and he his wits , he being already impatient with denyals and delayes , adding withall , that he was a person hopeful , and might deserve my condiscention : i withstood all their sollicitation , although they continued it untill . of the clock that night : the young lord at his taking his leave of me , told me he would attend me betimes the next morning , and carry me to st. pauls church , to hear the organs , saying , that there would be very excellent anthemes performed by rare voyces , during which time , young captain sakvell who they had made privy to their undertaking , out of some discontent ; threatned to discover the whole business , but he was promised l . to be silent , and plied closely with sack , that he was dead drunk that night : the morrow being saturday , the th of april last , in the morning betimes , the young lord cometh to my chamber-door , desiring admittance , which i refused , in regard i was not ready : yet so soon as my head was dressed , i let him have access he hastned me , and told me his coach was at the door , he carrieth me to his mothers in the gray-fryers london , where i was assaulted by the young lords teares , and others , to give my consent to marry him , telling me that they had a parson and a license ready : so i being amazedly importuned thereunto , did then and not before , give an amazed consent : to the church of great st. bartholomews we are carried , married by one mr. smith , from thence we travelled to barnet , that it might not be known at court , that he had married a forraign princess : he lyeth with me sunday and monday right , we return to st. bartholomews again , and were there married again the second time with a license , ( they having before falsly pretended a license ) that there might be no defect or flaw in the marriage . on friday following , being the . of april , lodgings are taken for my lord and my self in durham yard , and much state and grandeur is used for the credit of his lordship . the next friday following , being may day , his lordship with great state carrieth me into hide-park where i was accommodated by the courteous respect of divers persons of quality , with great rarities . my husband by this time , publickly owned the title of lord , by the which title privately , he carried on his design upon me , he being one day in company with some of his old acquaintance , hearing him boast of the fortune he had matched , they told him , that they might possibly commit an errour , in calling him mr. carlton , and that they should readily give him his due , by what title soever was proper to him , and that they knew not better how to be instructed then from himself , who they thought would be least guilty of flattery in that case . why truly , said he , my princess calleth me lord : upon that , he took upon him the acceptation of the title , publickly as well as privately . the first time he came to me , he pretended to be a lord , the which title he could not well-maintain , as the case stood , unless he made me a princess : now let but the world judge how divilishly i had been cheated , if i had been a princess , i had no reason to undeceive them in their wilful mistakes , when i saw by their practises , how much i was deceived , and disappointed ; for now by this time , m●s. king calleth me sister , and i come to understand that his lordship was a young clark , his father finding that his lordships concealed honour had taken aire , addresseth himself to me , least i might take dislike thereat , in finding my self so palpably deceived ; and by all meanes i must make over my estate unto my husband , saying unto me , daughter , you will do well to settle your estate upon my son , itwill satisfie the world , and redownd to your honour . i told him i saw my self deceived , and that although i could not keep my affections from him , i would keep my estate untill that i did die : i cannot but make a stop here , when i remember how violently they lately did prosecute me , without all peradventure this saying of mine animated them to seek my life so vigorously . this was the cause of my first breach with them , and the cause of my troubles that did immediately insue . in one or two dayes , the scene alters , and a letter from dover is contrived , to be a discovery of me ; for an accouut of which , i refer you to my speech in my tryall , for vindication of my self in that particular . my husband 's father cometh to my lodging in durham yard , with mris. clark , and my husband and others , called me cheat and harlot , violently stript me of all my apparell and jewells , pulled off my silk stockings from my leggs , cut the lace of my bodies , and scarce left me any thing to cover my nakedness with ; hurried me before a justice , where the father and the son are bound to prosecute me for having of two husbands ; they prefs me to confess the truth ; i did insist upon no other justification then my innocency : the which at last was my security and refuge , against their malitious and unnatural dealing with me . but i can do no less then say , that my husband did nothing but with reluctancy , and was prest thereunto by his friends . notwithstanding all which , i was committed prisoner to the gate-house , westminster , without one penny of money , or any manner of relief ; but my husband came thither to visit me , and charged the keeper i should want nothing , so far as l. went , he would see paid ; and afterward on the th of may , sent me this letter , the copy of which i here insert verbatim ; the which i have now by me , and shall keep it as a relict . my dearest heart , although the manner of your usage may very well call the sincerity of my affection and expressions to you in question ; yet when i consider , that you are not ignorant of the compulsion of my father , and the animosity of my whole relations both against you and my self for your sake , i am very confident your goodness will pardon and passe by those things which at present i am no way able to help : and be you confident , that notwithstanding my friends aversion , there shall be nothing within the reach of my power shall be wanting , that may conduce both to your liberty , maintenance , and vindication . i shall very speedily be in a condition to furnish you with money , to supply you according to your desire . i hope mr. bayly will be very civill to you ; and let him be assured , he shall in a most exact measure be satisfied , and have a requital for his obligation . my dearest , alwayes praying for our happy meeting , i rest , your most affectionate husband , john carlton . may the th . . at the same time , his brother george came and drank a health to my confusion , fell down dead drunk , and afterwards said , that ● had poysoned him . other of my husband's friends came to visit me in the gate-house , ( of the many hundreds of others , i shall say nothing ) one of them said , madam , i am one of your husbands friends and acquaintance , i had a desire to see you , because i have heard of your breeding . alas , said i , i have left that in the city amongst my kindred , because they w●nt it . another in his discourse delivered as an aphorism , that marriage and hanging went by destiny . i told him , i had received from the destinies marriage ; and he in probability might hanging . to wave many others of the like nature . on the d of june , . i am by order brought to the sessions in the old bayly . the court being sate , a bill of indictment was drawn up against me by the name of mary moders , alias stedman , for having two husbands now alive , viz. thomas stedman and john carlton . the grand jury found the bill , and was to the effect following : viz. that she the said mary moders late of london , spinster , otherwise mary stedman , the wife of tho. stedman late of the city of canterbury in the county of kent shooemaker , may , in the sixth reign of his now majesty , at the parish of st. mildreds in the city of canterbury , in the county aforesaid , did take to husband the aforesaid thomas stedman , and him the said thomas stedman then and there had to husband . and that she the said mary moders , alias stedman , april , in the th year of his said majesties reign , at london , in the parish of great st. bartholomews , in the ward of farringdon without , feloniously did take to husband one john carlton , and to him was married , the said thomas stedman her former husband then being alive , and in full life : against the form of the stautute in that case provided , and against the peace of our said soveraign lord the king , his crown and dignity , &c. afterwards i was called to the barr ; and appearing , was commanded to hold up my hand : which accordingly i did ; and my indictment was read to me as followeth : clerk of the peace . mary moders , alias stedman , thou standest indicted in london by the name of mary moders late of london spinster , otherwise mary stedman , the wife of , &c. and here the indictment was read as above : how sayst thou , art thou guilty of the felony whereof thou standest indicted , or not guilty ? nor guilty , my lord. clerk of the peace . how wilt thou be tryed ? i said , by god and the country . clerk of the peace . god send thee a good deliverance . aud afterwards i being set to the barr in order to my tryal , i prayed time till the morrow for my tryal : which was granted , and all persons concerned were ordered to attend at nine of the clock in the forenoon . i was sent to new-gate , and in the evening my husband came to the place i was lodged at , and desired admittance . after i was acquainted with it , i desired he should be admitted to my presence . upon his entring the room he said , how do you do , madam ? i thank you , my lord , as well as ever i was in my life , never better . i pity you , madam . i scom your pity , my lord , i have too large a soul. but ( said he ) i come to take my leave of you for ever ; you have not long to stay here , i am sorry for you . why , ( said i ) my lord , have you numbred my dayes ? my propitious stars a better sort of influence then you imagine them to have . well ( said he ) i shall pray for you , madam . i said , my lord , why , are you righteous ? the prayers of the wicked are not effectuall . upon that , he stept backward to be gone . i stept forwards to him , and said , nay , ( my lord ) 't is not amiss , before we part , to take a kiss . why , said he , will you kiss me ? i told him , yes : and did so . a person of honour desired him to stay and take a glass of sack ; he said , no. i replyed , i am sorry your lordships breeding is so poor , it will not give you leave to be civill . on thursday the th of june , at . of the clock in the morning , i was brought by my keeper to the barr , and silence being made , the jury was sworn , and the witnesses were called , viz. james knott , sarah williams , mr. george carlton the elder . the court with great patience staid the p●osecution above an hour and a half , in regard mr. george carlton alledged he was not ready with his witnesses . after which , the court proceeded , and acquainted mr. carlton , that they were not bound to stay so long as they had already ; but he was bound to be provided to prosecute . the indictment was read , which was to this effect ; that i had at several times married several persons that were now living ; that i had married in st. meldreds parish in canterbury some years last past , one thomas stedman , a shoe-maker now living ; and that in april last past i had feloniously married one john carlton , against the statute in that case made and provided . james knott was sworn , and said , that i was married in the place aforesaid , unto one thomas stedman , who is now alive , and would have come up , if he had had money to have born his charges ; and that he gave me in marriage : that i was born at canterbury , and that my father in law his name was richard foord . he being asked , if he knew my own father and mother ; he said , no. and further said , that it was about a week or a fortnight before the act for marriages by justices of the peace was put in execution . the lord chief justice ask't knott , what were the words used in the marriage ? he answered , that he was so young , that he could not remember that . william clark sworn , said , that there was an indictment against me at dover , for marrying of one day , after stedman , and that i was prosecuted by stedman , of which i was cleared . mr. george carlton the elder being sworn , gave in evidence , that he saw my husband at dover . being asked , whether he knew him to be her husband ? he answered , that he could not swear it . james knott gave further evidence , that i had two children by stedman . mr. george carlton the elder being askt , if he had any thing further to say , acquainted the court , that he had searcht the register-book of the parish church of st. meldreds , canterbury , but could not find any such marriage registred . and further said , that the present parson of the parish did tell him , that the clerk of the said place was often guilty of neglect in that kind . mr. george carlton the younger being sworn , said , that i was married unto his brother , john carlton , in april last , in great st. bartholomews . mr. smith , the parson that married me there , gave in evidence , that he married mr. john carlton and my self , in april last , by the book of common-prayer , and had a licence produced to him for his warrant ; i craving leave to speak , said , i acknowledged that i was married to mr. carlton , at the time , and in the manner as is before expressed ; therefore they might save themselves the labour , and the honourable bench the trouble of further proof in that case . mr. george carlton the elder being askt , if he had any other evidence to offer , answered , that he had more witnesses to prove my being marryed to other persons . the bench replyed , that there could be nothing given in evidence that was not contained in the indictment . the court askt knot , who were with him besides at the wedding he mentioned in his evidence ; he said , that there was mr. man , the parson that marryed us , the sexton , my sister , and himself that gave me . some of the jury desired the court to ask knot , how old he was now : he answered , that he was one or two and thirty years of age. mr. carlton being askt , if he had any more witnesses , answered , no. i standing all this while at the bar , not once interrupting or disturbing the evidence of the other side , the court calling upon me to make my defence , i without any disturbed thought , or unquiet mind , did in a deliberate composed manner , address my self to the bench in this sort : my lord , in the first place , i do with all due respect and submission , humbly beseech your lordship , and this honourable bench , not to impute any thing that i shall say to confidence , but rather to the necessity that lyeth upon me , to make my defence for my life . a thing that will sufficiently oblige any to make the best defence they can : but that doth not weight so much with me , as that which is every whit as dear to me as my life . my lord , it is my reputation and my innocency , that incourageth me to speak before your lordship at this time , and it is that which produceth confidence in me , that as i am innocent of the thing urged upon me by them , the justice and reason of you before whom i stand , by the which i hope to be acquitted and rendred to the world what i am , not what my prosecutors would have the world to believe me to be . my lord , i shall not trouble you with any thing impertinent , nor with any things that related to these affaires more then needs i must : when his son my husband , came and addressed himself to me , pretending himself a person of honour and upon first sight pressed me to marriage : i told him , sir , said i i am a stranger , have no acquaintance here , and desire you to desist your suit ; i could not speak my mind , but he ( having borrowed some thredbare complements ) replyed , madam , your seeming virtues , your amiable person , and noble department , renders you so excellent , that were i in the least interested in you , i cannot doubt of happiness ; and so with many words to the like purpose , courted me . i told him , and indeed could not but much wonder , that at so small a glance he could be so presumptuous with a stranger , to hint this to me ; but all i could say , would not beat him off . therefore my lord. i do humbly acquaint your lordship that old mr. carlton did rather design upon me , then i upon him , to say nothing of what passed before i was married to his son , of which there was enough to demonstrate that evidently , so soon as i was married to his son , he desired me to make over my estate to his son , to satisfie the world , that was somewhat amused , and in doubt of what is seems they had spread abroad for their own reputation : i answered him , sir , i shall not dis-invest my self of my estate , untill i did . mr. carlton intercepted my letters , by that understood how my estate did lie , that he had that expectation of what i had , is farther evident ; for his son came to me , pretending to be a person of honour and great quality , and the better to accomodate himself in his application to me , he borrowed his brother georges cloak , it is the same he hath on his back in court before your lordship ; and if any be deceived , i am . my lord , if that they could but have been insured that i had been the person as to estate , that they imagined me to be , your lordship should not have been troubled at this time , in these matters , if i understand them aright , they would have been contented to have practised concealment , in case i had had more then one husband . instead of this defamation that i am loaded with , my lord , my crime is , that i have not an estate , or at least such a one as they imagined it to be ; therefore my lord , i say , i am brought at this time to this place ; and therefore , my lord , were my jewels seized to defray the charge of their expensive courting of me . to colour what they have done , they fix the offences of some woman of canterbury , a person that may be dead , or gone out of the land for ought i know , upon me : the place i know not , a place that i am a stranger unto ; if that had not bin so , they have had time enough since my first commitment to have produced more evidence then any that hath as yet been urged before your lordship : my lord , they brand me for marrying of a shoo-make , and another sad piece of mortality , a brick-layer . my lord , my soul abhorreth such a thought , and never was accommodated with such condiscention , to move in so low an o●b . my lord , by all that i can observe of the persons that appear against me , they may be divided into two sorts ; the one of them come against me for want of wit , the other for want of mony. that mony hath been proffered to subborn some against me , i have witness to prove . my lord , these people have been up and down the country , and finding none there that could justifie any thing of this matter , they get here an unknown fellow , unless in a prison , and from thence borrowed , you cannot but all judg to swear against me . my lord , were there any such marriage as this fellow pretends , methinks there might be a certificate from the minister , or place : certainly if married , it must be registred ; but there is no registry of it , and so can be no certificate , no minister nor clerk to be found : and if i should own a marriage , then you see that great witness cannot tell you , whether i was lawfully married , or how ? but it is enough for him ( if such a paultry fellow may be believed ) to say , i was married . i was never yet married to any but john carlton , the late pretended lord : but these persons have sought alwayes to take away my life , bringing persons to swear against me . my lord , when old mr. carlton saw that he could not obtain his end of me , he threatned me with a justice , and a prison ; and the justice bound him over to prosecute me ; he must make the best of it , and therefore it is no wonder that he repaireth to such means and instruments to effect my ruine . my lord , i desire that my witnesses may be called . elizabeth collier said , that she coming to the gate-house to see her husband , being a prisoner there for debt , one pretended that he came to see his wife there , named mary maullers . upon that , she took upon her to personate the said person he asked for : he said , i , 't is true , thou art that unhappy woman that i married . the which person she never saw before in her life . mr. ed. bayly , deputy-keeper of the gate-house , saith , that he hath heard people , at the least , of canterbury , ancient livers and inhabitants there , say , that they never knew , nor did ever see me , before they came to see me in the gate-house , upon the fame that was spread abroad of my being born at canterbury , and having acted such a part at canterbury . the lord chief justice was pleased to ask me , where i was born ? i answered , in germany . he ask'd me , where ? i said , at colen . mr. clark was askt by the court , whether he could prove , or swear , that i was the mary mauders that was tryed at dover ? he answered , that he could not , neither prove it , nor swear it himself ; for he was a stranger to the whole business . i perceiving the sleight evidence , and that i needed not either to say more , or offer more evidence in my behalf , submitted my cause to the bench and jury . upon my being askt by the bench , if i had more to say ; i replyed , no. the court gave instructions to the jury as followeth : first , the indictment was briefly recited . and as to the evidence , the court observed , that there was but one witness to prove the indictment , and that he could not remember the manner of marriage , nor the words used there . and if that i had been married , and had two children , and that the jury should believe that single evidence , and that he had sworn aright , i was to dye . the judge told the jury , that they had heard of a tryall against me , for having had two husbands before , one stedman , and day , at one time , and that from a jury-man that was upon the jury at the same tryall ; yet he could not swear , that i was the woman . the jury went forth , and continued absent a quarter of an hour : upon their return , and silence being made , the jury being called over , they were askt as the custom is , who should say for them ? they answered , the fore-man . the court askt , whether they found the prisoner guilty , or not guilty ? the fore-man answered , not guilty . upon which , there was a great shout of the people . after silence being made , i moved the court , that they would order the restoration of my jewels . they answered , that i had owned mr. carlton for her husband , he must sue for them , if old mr. carlton shall deny the delivery of them . when the jury was returning with their verdict , my husband in the garden , met them ; he askt one of them , if they had found me guilty ? he in answer to his question , said , no , my lord , we shall leave you to make much of your princess . he replyed , by god , i am undone , i will never own her . their envy against me rested not here , they preferred severall other bills the same afternoon ; and endeavoured as much the next day : but the grand jury perceiving it to be rather upon malice , then upon any just ground that they had so to do , flung them our . during my stay at new gate after the tryal a kinsman of my lords came to visit me , said , madam , i think you are with child . i answered him , that if i were , it would be a young clerk he would be born with a pen and ink in his hand and a bond about his neck . saturday he th of june , i was discharged from my restraint ; since which , i shall acquaint the world with what hath hapned to my vindica●ion : it was one of my pretended husbands , by whom a bill was prefer ed ( but not found , as i said before ) by billing the brick-layer . upon whusun-monday , the th of june instant , the said billing came to new-gate , demanded of the keepers to deliver his wife to him : the turn-key , and other subordinate officers of the goal , told him , they had none of his wife ; he insisted upon it , and with-stood all deni●l , mentioned my name , and the particulars of my tryal : the keepers remembring there was a former mistake of the same person , given in evidence on my behalf at the tryal , called one grizel hudson a convict , a pretty woman , and in good habit ; the turn-key a ked billing , whether this was his wife ? billing replyed , yes ; and askt her , why she did not come to him upon his first sending for her ? she told him , that the keepers would not permit her to stir out of the prison , in regard her fees were not paid . billing said , he would pay the fees ; and whispered her in the ear , saying , that they had a mind to hang her ( meaning the carltons ) but he would not prosecute her : true it was , he had put in an indictment against her , but he could not help that . well moll , said he to her , have ye all your things ? she said , yes . but , said he , moll , why do you stay here amongst such wicked company , rogues and whores , i see their irons about their legs . why , said she , i have left some li 〈…〉 ingaged in the cellar . to the cellar the keeper carryed them both ; and there billing left a note under his hand , to pay five shillings to the tapster : which note he hath to produce , to satisfie any that shall make further enquiry in this particular . he further said , that she had cheated him of fourty pounds , and that he would pawn the lease of his house , rather then she should want money , although she was a wicked rogue , if she would but live with him : she promised she would . he told her he would give her a sky-colour'd silk petticoat , and wastcoat , and a podesway gown , new holland for smocks , and all other things necessary . billing turning himself to the company the●e present , said merrily , that she had cost him much bef●re when he marryed her , but he never lay with her , but he had kist her , and f●l● her a hundred times . billing askt her again , if she would leave these wicked rogues , and go long with him . she said , she had another debt to pay : he askt what it was ; she said , twenty pounds to such a one , a stranger then present , unto which person he gave a note to pay l. in one moneth after the date thereof : ( it's mo●e then probable he will be made so to do . ) he further said to her , that now it will trouble me to pay all this money , and then you to run away from me in a short time . withall , said he , moll , you need not , for i have a better estate them the young man that tryed you for your life . so gave the particulars of his estate , what in money , houses , leases , and land. he added moreover , that he did love her out of measure , notwithstanding she had done him other mischief , then what he had before-mentioned . she ask him , wh●t they were ? he said , she had stollen from his daughter a knife and a wrought sheath , a handkercher , and a seal'd ring . with that , the standers by told him , that he was mistaken , that this grizell hudson was not the person : he swote it was , and that he knew her well enough ; that he saw her in the gate-house , and that she knew what passed between us there : but , said he , moll , thou art a cunning rogue , i desire nothing of thee but to be honest , and live with me ; the which she promised , and he parted with great content thereupon . reader , take the whole , and view it well ; i leave it to thy ingeruity , whether from the tryal it self , and other circumst●nces , there be not enough to clear one , in thy judgment . i have omitted cloathing of it in polite language , in regard i was confined to render it in those proper terms and words , that every accident carryed along with it self , without adding or diminishing . finis . an encomiastick poem upon the german princess . fames trump sounds forth the amazons renown , whose worthy feats have kingdoms ovethrown ; the triumphs of their sex may win the bayes from masculine fortunes more unworthy praise . some are for valour , some for learning prais'd , beauty and piercing wit have others rais'd . man's highest honours can't pretend to claim what is not justly due to womans name . and yet all histories defective are , and have not nam'd a female half so rare , as this our princess ; whose wit so refin'd , made frustrate what her en'mies had design'd ; deceiving her deceivers , cast them all into the pit they digged for her fall . no more shall cleopatra boast her . parts , which won great antony's and caesar's hearts ; though with one passion she did both enflame , in all estates her self being still the same . to vainer purpose did thalestris come from distant regions to procure a son of alexander : 't was not ( i greatly fear ) courage or wit 's effect , but hot desire . this forreign princess such perfections brought into our english world , as lessons taught most proper ; for our age declining still from bad to worse , goes on to what 's most ill : our ancestors renowned vertues priz'd , but we all reall honours have despis'd : how well doth she our dulled souls revive , and good examples to the great ones give , to brave and noble vertues to aspire , and make the under-duller world admire . thus , though disguis'd , her most illustrious worth through all impediments of hate brake forth , which her detractors sought within a prison t' eclipse , whereby her fame 's the higher risen . as jems i' th' dark do cast a brighter ray , then when obstructed by the rival-day ; so did the lustre of her mind appear , through this obscure condition , more clear . and when they thought by bringing to the barr to gain her publicke shame , they rais'd her far more noble trophees , she being clearly quit both by her innocence and exc'lent wit. finis . the speech of the earl of argyle at his trial on the th of december, argyll, archibald campbell, earl of, - . approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing a estc r ocm this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the speech of the earl of argyle at his trial on the th of december, argyll, archibald campbell, earl of, - . sheet ([ ] p.) printed for richard janeway ..., london : . created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng trials (treason) -- great britain. broadsides -- england -- th century. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - judith siefring sampled and proofread - judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the speech of the earl of argyle at his trial on the th . of december . my lord iustice general and remanent honourable lords of iusticiary i look upon it as the undoubted privilege of the meanest , subject , to explain his own words in the most benign sense . and even when persons are under an evil character , the misconstruction of words , in themselves not ill , can only amount to presumption or aggravation , and not a crime . but it is strangely alledged ( as well as impossible to make any that knows me believe ) that i could intend anything , but what was honest and honourable , suitable to the principles of my religion and loyalty , though i did not explain my self at all . my lord , pray be not offended , that i take up a little of your time to tell you , i have from my youth made it my business to serve his majesty faithfully ; and have constantly to my power , appeared in his service , especially in all times of difficulty ; and have never joyned , nor complied with any interest or party , contrary to his majesties authority , but have all along served him in his own way , without a frown from his majesty these thirty years . as soon as i passed the schools and colledges , i went to travel to france and italy in the beginning of the year and continued abroad till the end of the year . my first appearance in the world , was to serve his majesty , as collonel of his foot-guard ; and though at that time all the commissions were given by the then parliament , yet i would not serve without a commission from his majesty , which i have still the honour to have by me . after the misfortune of worcester , i continued in arms for his majesties service , when scotland was overrun with the usurpers , and was alone with some of my friends in arms , in the year . and did then keep up some appearance of opposition to them by taking several of the castles they had garisoned in argyle-shire ; and taking and killing three hundred of them in one day . after which , i joyned with those his majesty had commissioned , and stood out to the last , till the earl of middleton his majesties liuetenent general gave me order to capitulate , which i did without any other engagement to the rebels , but bail to live peaceably ; and did at my capitulating , relieve several prisoners by exchange , whereof my lord granard out of the castle of edenborough was one . it is not well known that i was imprisoned by the usurpers , who was so jealous of me , that contrary to their faith , they seized on me , and kept me from prison to prison , till his majesties happy restauration , only because i would not engage not to serve him , though there was no oath required ? i do with all gratitude acknowledge his majesties bounty and royal favours to me when i was pursued before the parliament in the year . his majesty was graciously pleased not to send me down in any opprobrious way , but upon a bare verbal bail , upon which i came down post , and presented my self a fortnight before the time ; and having satisfied his majesty at that time , of my entire loyalty , i did not offer to plead by advocates , and his majesty was not only pleased to pardon my life , and to restore me to a title and fortune , but to put me in trust in his service in the most eminent judicatories of the kingdom , and to heap favours upon me beyond whatever i did , or can deserve , though i hope his majesty hath always found me faithful and thankful , and ready to bestow all i have , or can have , for his service ; and i hope he never had , nor never shall have ground to repent any favour he hath done me : if i were now guilty of the four crimes libelled , i should think my self a great villian . in the prosecution of the story of my life in the year , when the rebellion broke out , that was repressed at pentland hills , upon a bare advertisement from the now lord archbishop st. andrews , without any order either from the council or general , the intercourse being stopped , did i not bring together about two thousand men , and sent a gentleman to general dailyel , offering to joyn with him , if the rebellion had not presently been happily crushed ? and when i met with considerable trouble from my neighbours rebelliously in arms , and had commissions both in publick and private accounts , have i not carried dutifully to his majesty , and done what was commanded with a just moderation , which i can prove under the hands of mine enemies , and by many infallible demonstrations ? pardon me yet a few words . did i not in this present parliament shew my readiness to serve his majesty and the royal family in asserting vigorously the lineal legal succession of the crown , and had a care to have it expressed in the commissions of the shires and boroughs in which i had interest ? was i not for offering proper supplies to his majesty and his successor ? and did i not concur to bind the landlords for their tenants , though i was mainly concerned ? and have i not always keep'd my tenants in obedience to his majesty ? i say all this , not to arrogate any thing to my self for doing what i was in honour and duty bound to his majesty ; but if after all this , upon no other ground , but words that were spoken in absolute innocence , and without the least design , except for clearing my own conscience , and that are not capable of the ill sense wrested from them by the libel , i should be further troubled , what assurance can any of the greatest quality , trust , or innocence have , that they are secure , especially considering , that so many scruples have been started , as all know , not only by many of the orthodox clergy , but by whole presbyteries , synods , and some bishops , which were thought so considerable , that an eminent bishop did take the pains to write a treatise ( which was read in council , and allowed to be printed , and a copy given to me ) , which contains expressions that may be stretched to a worse sense than i am charged for . have i not shewed my zeal to all the ends of the test ? how then can it be imagined , that i have any sinister design in any thing that i have said ? if i had done any thing contrary to the whole course of my life , which i hope shall not be found , yet one act might pretend to be excused by a habit. but nothing being questioned but the sense of words misconstrued to the greatest beight , and stretched to imaginary inclinations , quite contrary to my scope and design ; and so far contrary , not only to my sense , but principles , interest and duty , that i hope my lord advocate will think he hath gone too far in this process , and say plainly what he knows to be true by his acquaintance with me , both in publick and private , that i am neither papist nor phanatick , but am truly loyal in my principles and practice . the hearing of this libel would trouble me beyond most of the sufferings of my life , if my innocence did not support me , and the hopes of being vindicated of this and other calumnies before this publick and noble auditory . i leave my defences to these gentlemen that plead for me : they know my innocence , and how groundless that libel is . i shall only say , as my life has been most of it spent in serving and suffering for his majesty , so whatever be the event of this process , i resolve , while i breathe , to be loyal and faithful to his majesty ; and whether i live publickly or in obscurity , my head , my heart , nor my hand , shall never be wanting where i can be useful to his majesties service , and while i live , and when i die , i shall pray , that god almighty would bless his majesty with a long , happy and prosperous reign , and that the lineal legal successors of the crown , may continue monarchs over all his majesties dominions , and be defenders of the true primitive christian apostolick catholick protestant religion , while sun and moon endure . london : printed for richard ianeway , in queens-head-alley in pater-noster-row . master glyn's reply to the earle of straffords defence of the severall articles objected against him by the house of commons published by speciall direction, out of an authentick copy. glynne, john, sir, - . this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing g ). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing g estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) master glyn's reply to the earle of straffords defence of the severall articles objected against him by the house of commons published by speciall direction, out of an authentick copy. glynne, john, sir, - . england and wales. parliament. house of commons. [ ], p. printed for lawrence chapman, london : anno . reproduction of the original in the british library. eng strafford, thomas wentworth, -- earl of, - -- early works to . great britain -- history -- charles i, - -- early works to . trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . ireland -- history -- rebellion of -- early works to . a r (wing g ). civilwar no master glyn's reply to the earle of straffords defence of the severall articles objected against him by the house of commons. published by s glynne, john, sir c the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the c category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images - jonathan blaney sampled and proofread - jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion master glyns reply to the earle of straffords defence of the severall articles objected against him by the house of commons . published by speciall direction , out of an authentick copy . london , printed for lawrence chapman , anno . master glyns reply to the earle of straffords defence . my lord of strafford having concluded the recapitulation of his evidence , mr. glyn applied himselfe to their lordships in manner following . may it please your lordships , my lord of strafford ( as your lordships have observed , ) hath spent a great deale of time in his evidence , and in his course of answering hath inverted the order of the articles ; he hath spent some time , likewise , in defending the articles not objected against him , wherein he hath made a good answer , if in any : wee shall presume to withdraw a while , and rest upon your lordships patience ; and i doubt not but to represent my lord of strafford as cunning in his answer , as hee is subtill in his practice . the committee withdrawing for about the space of halfe an houre , and then returning to the barre , mr. glyn proceeded as followeth . my lords , your lordships have observed how the earle of strafford hath been accused by the commons of england of high treason , for a purpose and designe to subvert the fundamentall lawes of both the kingdomes , of england and ireland , and to introduce an arbitrary , and tyrannicall government : the commons have exhibited articles in maintenance of that charge : my lord of strafford hath thereunto answered in writing . the commons have proceeded to make good their charge by proofe , and thereunto my lord of strafford hath made his defence ; and this day my lord of strafford hath taken upon him to recollect his evidence , and make his observation upon it , the most he could to his advantage . my lords , wee that are intrusted for the house of commons , stand here to recollect the evidence on our part , and to apply it to the generall charge , and how farre it conduces thereunto . my lord of strafford in recollecting the evidence of his defence , as i did mention before , hath ( under favour ) exprest very much subtilty , and that in divers particulars , which i shall represent to your lordships . my lords , before i enter upon the recollection of the proofes produced on the behalf of the commons , i shall make some observations , and give some answer to that recollection of his ; though very disorderly to the method i propounded to my selfe . and first , in generall , it will appeare to your lordships , ( looking upon your notes , and observing his recollection ) that he hath used the repetition of evidence on both sides , in such manner as you know who useth scripture ; that is , to cite as much as makes for his purpose , & leave out the rest . and likewise , that in repetition of the evidence , he hat● mis-recited , plainly , very much of the proofs on both sides , & likewise hath pretended some proofes to be for his defence , which indeed were not : and hee hath taken this farther advantage ; when it makes for his defence , he hath disjoynted the proofes , and testimonies , and severed them asunder , that it might appeare to your lordships , like raine falling in drops , which considered in distinct drops bring no horrour , or seeming inconvenience with them ; but when they are gathered together into an entire body , they make an inundation , and cover the face of the earth . he would not have your lordships look on those testimonies together , but distinctly , and asunder , wch being put together look horrid , as will appeare to your lo. when you duly consider of them . these bee the generall observations , which in my answer i doubt not but to make good : but before i shall enter into observations of what hee hath spoken , i shall answer in generall to some things which hee hath in generall alledged . in the first place , hee hath made a flourish this day , and severall other dayes in the way of his defence , that if hee could have had longer time , hee could have made things appeare clearer , and have produced more proofes . give mee leave to informe your lordships that he is no way straightned of time , for he hath bin charged above three months since ▪ he knew what was laid to his charge , and therefore his pretence of want of time , and of his disabilities to make better proofes , are but flourishes . and it appears plainly , whatsoever he hath had occasion to make use of , even the least paper , though hee fetched it from ireland , there is not one wanting ; he hath copies of papers from the councell table , from the parliament of ireland , and all that may any way tend to his justification , and yet he stands upon that flourish , that if he had had time he could have made it more cleare . my lords , he hath mentioned often this day , and oftner the dayes before , that many of the articles laid to his charge are proved but by one witnesse ; and thereupon he takes the advantage of the statute of e. . that sayes , a man ought not to be condemned for high treason without two witnesses . my lords , this is a fallacy knowne to his own breast , i doubt not , and not taught him by any of his councell , or others learned . the treason laid to his charge , is , the subverting of the lawes ; the evidence is , the articles proved : and though some one article appeares to be proved but by one , yet put the evidence together , you shall never find it to bee within the words or meaning of the statute ; for the charge is proved by a hundred witnesses : and because one part of the evidence is proved onely by one witnesse , since , when you put them together , you will find a hundred witnesses , it is not within the words nor meaning of the statute , neither will his councell direct him to say so , i am confident . my lords , another observation i shall be bold to make , is , that hee was pleased to cast an aspersion ( as we must apprehend ) upon them that be trusted by the house of commons this day , that we that stand here , alledged and affirmed things to be proved , that are not proved : hee might have pleased to have spared that language ; we stand here to justifie our selves , that we doe not use to expresse any language , but what our hearts and consciences tels us is true ; and howsoever he is pleased to cast it upon us , i am confident i shall invert it upon himselfe , and make it appeare , that hee hath bin this day guilty , in the highest degree , of what he most unjustly layeth to our charge . and now my lords to enter upon the particulars , hee hath beene pleased to make it his generall theame to day ( though hee hath not spoke much to day but what he hath spoken formerly ) that these particulars considered by themselves make not a treason , and therefore put together he wonders how they should make a treason : several misdemeanours can never make a murther , and severall murders can never make a treason ; and he wonders it should be otherwise in this case . my lords he did instance it ( if my memory failes me not ) in a case of felony ; that if a bloudy knife should bee produced in the hand of the party suspected to have slaine the man , if the party had bin there seen before the death , it were a strong evidence ; but there must bee death in the case , the fact must be committed , else there can be no murther : but he himselfe might answer himselfe , for there is a great difference : there cannot be murther but there must be death , but hee knowes very well there may be treason and yet no death ; it is too late to forbeare questioning treason for killing the king , till the king be killed : god forbid wee should stay in that case , for the very intention is the treason , and it is the intention of the death of the law that is in question , and it had beene too late to call him to question to answer with his life for the death of the law , if the law had been killed , for there had been no law then ; and how should the law then have adjudged it treason , when the same were subverted and destroyed ? and therefore he is much mistaken . the greatest traytor , in the memory of any that sits here to heare me this day , had a better , a fairer excuse in this particular then my lord of strafford , and that is guido faux ; for hee might have objected , that the taking of the cellar , the laying of the powder under the parliament house , the kindling of the match , and putting it neare , are not so much as a misdemeanor , if you look no further ; for it was no offence in him to lay barrels under the parliament house , and to kindle the match , and to lay it neere ; but collect all together , that it was eâ intentione to blow up the king and the state , there is the treason : but god be blessed it was not effected ; so that the rule is the same . nay , my lord of strafford hath not so much to say , when he is charged with a purpose and intention to subvert the law ; for to that purpose gave he trayterous counsels , and executed actions , thereby discovering his intentions to destroy the kingdome , and to destroy the kings claime by law , and discent . it is true , they were not put in execution , but they declared his intentions ; therefore this gives an answer to his first flourish , which is not so great an argument as the greatest traytor might use for himself , and yet it proved treason in him . my lords , he hath been pleased to divide his treasons into two parts , and his division i allow of ; that is , treason by statute-law , as he tearmes it , though it be treason by the common-law ; and constructive treason : and upon that method hee hath recited the evidence produced on either part ; give mee leave to follow and trace him a little , and afterwards to discharge my duty in taking my owne course , and representing the evidence as it appeares , truly ; and i will avoid ( as much as i can ) to fall into my lord of straffords errour , in mis-reciting a particle ; if i doe , it shall be against my will . he begins with the fifteenth article , and pretends that that is not proved ; the ground and foundation of that article was a warrant issued out by himselfe to a sergeant at armes , one savill , which gave directions and power to that serjeant to lay souldiers on any person that should contemne the processe of the councell ▪ boord in ireland ; that was the effect : now ( sayes he ) this warrant is not produced , and addes , that the judges will tell your lordships , that if a man bee charged with any thing under hand and seale , the deed must be produced and proved , or else no credit is to bee given to it . truely , my lords , it is true , if it had beene a bond , or a deed , where those that seale it use to call their neighbours to testifie , and be witnesses to it , perhaps it might be a colourable answer , that because we do not produce the deed , and prove it by witnesses , you can therefore give no credit to it : but , my lords , in case of authority to commit high treason , i suppose my lord of strafford , nor any other did call witnesses to prove the signing , sealing and delivering of the warrant for execution of high treason ; and therefore it is a new way and invention found out by his lordship , for ought i see , to commit high treason , and to give authority for it ; and it is but taking away the originall warrant , and hee shall never be touched for any treason . but i beseech your lordships patience , till i come to open that article , and your lordships will finde the warrant , ( though it be not produced , ) proved by three or foure witnesses , and his hand & seale proved too . and wheras he pretends the sergeant at armes is no competent witnesse , because he excuses himselfe ; my lord mistakes himselfe , for i take it to bee no excuse to prove a warrant from any person whatsoever , if it be to commit high treason : and therefore savills testimony is the more strong , being so farre from excusing , that hee doth accuse himselfe : and though he is charged with laying of souldiers upon the kings people , contrary to an expresse ▪ act of parliament made in . h. . yet my lord is pleased ( i know not how to terme it , whether it be merrily , or otherwise ) to use his rhetorick , here is a great levying of war , when there is not above foure musketiers , or six at most , laid upon any one man . my lords , it is a plain levying of warre , and without all question , and in all sense , it is as much mischievous to me to be surprized by foure or six musketiers , to enforce me to any thing they would have , as if there were an army of forty thousand brought upon me ; for if that strength will but over master me , it is all one to me whether i be mastered by foure , or by foure thousand . and therefore let not this be a rule , that to send foure , or six , or ten musketiers up and downe is not considerable , because of the smalnesse of the number ( the danger is the same ; ) yet this is no levying of warre , because they goe not in troops of greater number , as it pleases my lord of strafford to affirm . my lords , your lordships remember what the effect of the warrant is sworn to be , that howsoever the sergeant at armes , and his ministers that executed it , brought but foure , or six , or ten , yet the sergeant might have brought all the army of ireland , for there was authority so to doe . and admitting the matter of fact proved , he mentions an act of parliament made . eliz. whereby a penalty is laid upon men that shall lay souldiers on the kings subjects , and yet ( as my lord observes ) it must now be treason in the deputy . my lords , the very casting of an eye upon that act , shewes it to be as vainly objected , as if he had said nothing ; for in truth it is no other than as if he should say , the king hath given me the command of an army in ireland , and therefore i may turne them upon the bowels of the kings subjects : it is no more in effect . your lordships have heard him the other day mentioning two acts of repeale , and i expected he would have insisted upon them ; but it seemes he hath beene better advised , and thinks them not worthy repetition , nor indeed are they . and if the matter of fact be proved upon the fifteenth article , i am confident he will find the statute of . h. . to be of full force . my lords , i am very sorry to heare , that when levying of warre upon the kings subjects is in agitation , and he charged with high treason , he should make mention of the yorkshire men , and the army now on foot , whereby he would insinuate , that if he be charged with high treason , then they must be likewise , though they lye quartered , and have meat and drink with the assent of the people ; which may breed ill bloud for ought i know . from the fifteenth article he descends to the three and twentieth , and that is the article whereby he stands charged with speaking of words , and giving of councell to his majestie to incense him against his parliament , pretending a necessity , and telling him he is loose and absolved from all rules of government ; that he had an army in ireland which he might make use of to reduce this kingdome . in this he is pleased to begin with the testimony of my lord ranelagh , conceiving an apprehension and feare in him , that the army should goe over to england , which my lord sayes , is no more but his saying , and master treasurer vane's . i pray god my lord ranelagh had not much cause to feare ; but by the same rule he may lay a charge of unwarrantable feare upon all the commons ; for sure the commons of england did feare it , else they would not make an article of it : but my lord ranelagh's feare did not arise from a slight cause , and he shewed himselfe a good common-wealths man in expressing it , and he is to be commended for it , howsoever it be apprehended by my lord of strafford . for his observation of the single testimony of mr. treasurer vane , give me leave to take the same latitude as his lordship did ; for he shewes to three or foure articles what he could have proved ; as to the article concerning the army , he could have proved the designe of it by sir john burlacy , and some others , if they had beene here . but by this rule and liberty hee hath taken to alledge what he could have showne , give me leave to tell you what we might have showne , and are ready to shew : we could have made it expresse , and proved it by notes taken by secretary vane the fifth of may , when the words were spoken , which notes should have beene proved , if we had proceeded on the three and twentieth article , to corroborate the testimony of mr. secretary vane , and that by two witnesses . wee could likewise have showne how we came to the knowledge of it , it being by means unknowne to master secretary vane , and have made him an upright councellour and witnesse : but we shall prove his intentions to bring in the irish army another way , when i come to open my owne course and method . my lords , hee pretends these words were spoken the fift of may , but when they were testified by master treasurer , he did not speak of the fifth of may , and yet now my lord remembers the day ; and i wonder how hee came to the knowledge of the day , unlesse he likewise remembred the words . but that my lord observes , is , that being spoken then , how should he perswade the king , that he had an army in ireland , when in truth he had none there ? for the army was not on foot till a moneth after . this , my lords , is plainly answered ; and if he had thought of his owne answer , he had answered himselfe : for he tels you , that in april before , he had taken a course for the levying of the army , he had nominated the officers , giving direction for raising it : and , the day of the rendezvous of the army was appointed the . of may . and so in his owne answer he makes an answer to the objection , and the objection is taken away out of his own confession . from that article he falls to the seven and twentieth article , whereby he stands charged with levying money by force upon the kings people in yorkshire : he is pleased to observe , that all the proofes for the maintenance of that article , is onely the levying of money with foure souldiers by sergeant major yaworth . where he is pleased to disdaine the war , because it was so weak , yet it was too strong for them ( god help them ) that were forced upon pain of life to pay it . and whereas he pretends the warrrant was not from him , i shall reserve that till i come to the article , and when i come to the proofes , i beleeve it will remain fixed upon him . and there he left his statute treason , and now he fals to the second kind of treason , and that was the introductive or constructive treason : he begins with the third article , that is , concerning some words that he should be charged to have spoken in ireland ; & i shal desire that your lordships would be pleased to look upon your notes , how he answers that article ; my lords , sayes he , i am charged to say that ireland was a conquered nation , and that their charters were nothing worth , and bind the king no further then he pleaseth ; therefore i am a traitor because i speak the truth . there was his answer in his collection . and for their charters he sayes , he might might very well say so , for he intended it no otherwise , but according to the validity of them , for they were severall wayes questionable , and ought not to bind , unlesse they were good in law . but if you look upon his arguments , he hath , like a cunning oratour , omitted the principall part of the article ; and that is , that ireland is a conquered nation , and they were to be governed as the king pleaseth , the king might doe with them what he lists ; this hee omits : although they be proved by three witnesses , and are appliable to his intentions fully ; yet he could make use of so much as makes for him , and leaves out the rest , like your lordships know whom . then he descends to the fourth article , and this concerns some words he should speak upon an occasion betwixt him and my lord of cork , that he should tell my lord of cork , he would have neither law nor lawyers dispute or question his orders . and upon another occasion , that he would make my lord of cork and all ireland know , that all acts of state ( which are acts of councel ) there made , or to be made , should be as binding as any act of parliament : this he said was proved but by one witnesse : and i extremely marvell to heare him say so ; for the latter words wee proved by foure , or five , or six witnesses , that is , that he would have acts of state as binding as acts of parliament . whereas he sayes these are all the words produced against him in the time of seven yeeres government there , your lordships have heard of many words , and if we would trouble your lordships further in this kind , we could prove such words spoken , as often almost as he remained dayes in ireland , that is , for the mis-recitall . the other part two witnesses proved ; but the residue , that they must expect law from the king as a conquerour , that acts of state should be equall to acts of parliament , and when an act of parliament would not passe , he would make it good by an act of state , these speeches at other times were proved by five witnesses . then he falls back to the second article , touching the words , that the kings little finger should be heavier then the loines of the law . my lords , these words were proved expresly by five witnesses , to be by him spoken ; and if he had produced five hundred that had said he did not speak them , they had not been equivalent to disprove five ; but he produces none . sir william penniman repeats other words , and inverts them , and none but he . another party , a minister , reports a report that hee heard concerning these words , but , my lord , saith he , the occasion of the speaking of them was not mentioned . truly perhaps it might bee the forgetfulnesse of my lords memory , but let me put him in mind . and your lordships remember that the occasion was exprest by one , and that is sir david fowles , that he laying a command upon sir david to repaire a bridge , and calling him to account why it was not repaired , sir david fowles told him , he could not doe it by law . and therefore omitting it , my lord said to him , sir , some are all for law and lawyers , but you shall know that the kings little finger will be heavier then the loines of the law . here is the occasion , though he would have another businesse , the knighting money to be the occasion . from the second he falls to the three and twentieth article , that is , concerning words , that he should counsell his majestie , that he might use his prerogative as he pleased ; but in saying there was no proofe offered , hee here begins to fall upon the other fallacy , that is , to pull things asunder ( whereas we produce them together ) and would make that that is a faggot , to be but a single stick ; but , under favour , when i come , with your lordships patience , to open the force of the proofes , and put them together , he shall find ( contrary to his expectation ) that they are fully proved by the testimony of many witnesses , upon consideration of the precedent , concurrent , and subsequent acts and intentions of my lord of strafford . i shall not now run over my lord primates testimony , or my lord conwayes , or master treasurers , or my lord of bristols , but make use of them in their proper places , when i shall put all together , to shew his design , and to prove his speaking of the words . then hee comes to the five and twentieth article , which i shall not insist on , though he pretends it not proved ; i shall referre that to my recollection , that i may not answer to his pieces , but bring all together , and then the horrour of his fact shall more speciously appeare . onely this ( under favour ) i cannot passe over , when he comes to justifie an advice and counsell of the kings being loose and absolved from all rules of government , and that he might use his prerogative as hee pleases , he is pleased to mention the argument of the judges in the ship-money , and what they should deliver , he makes the warrant of his counsell . now your lordships may observe , he would justifie his actions by law , in some cases , where it is to his advantages , but in other cases hee must be ignorant of the law . but , my lords , for him to mention any thing in the argument of the judges , concerning the ship-money , which is now condemned , and to make that a ground of his counsell and advice to the king , and not the judgement in truth , but the argument of the councell at barr , that therefore he is loose , and absolved from all rule of government ; for him to make the parliaments deferring to give supply , to be that necessity which was insisted upon in the councells argument , and to be such an unavoidable necessity , as to beget an invasion upon propriety and liberty , it rests in your judgements , and the judgements of all that heare me , what argument this is , and what he declares his opinion to be this day . in the latter part , let me close hands , and agree with him ; he sayes , proofes must be taken by themselves , they must not be judged by peeces , but together ; and now in good time i shall joyne with him , and shall desire the same judgement , that things may not be taken asunder , but judged together , according to his owne words . for the twentieth article , he is thereby charged with being an incendiary between both nations , and an occasion of drawing two armies into this kingdome , and to incense the warre . my lords , i remember ( if i did not mis-conceive , and my memory misprompt me ) my lord said , he could have no occasion to incense a war , being a man of estate , and should have no benefit by it , having sufficient to live without it : but in due time i shall make it appeare , to my apprehension , and i beleeve to your lordships , when you have heard it , that the incensing of this war , and provoking of it , was the principall instrument of bringing to passe his designe of subverting the lawes , through the whole work of it . my lords , in the passage of this , he takes occasion to speak of the testimony of master secretary vane , who testifies , that my lord was for an offensive , and himselfe for a defensive warre : whence my lord argues , here is no great difference , for both were for a warre : but , my lords , is there no difference betweene an offensive and defensive warre , in case of subjects that live under one king ? is there no difference to bring an army to offend them , and for the king to raise a force to defend himselfe ? truly i think there is a great difference , and a very materiall one too : but your lordships see hee makes no difference between them . my lords , in the foure and twentieth article he mentions , that he is charged with being an occasion to breake the parliament , and layes hold of that , as in the other articles , that it was not proved , but declined . my lords , when hee shall heare the repetition of the evidence , though part of the article was not particularly insisted upon , yet i beleeve it will appeare to your lordships , and the world , that he was the occasion of breaking the last parliament , and it is expresly proved by witnesses enow ; and though he sayes , how should any body thinke him an occasion of it ; that did so often advise parliaments ? yet i shall shew anon , that when he did advise them , it was to compasse his owne designe and plot , without which his ends could not be brought to passe . he came from the foure and twentieth article to the seven and twentieth , and he answers against that article , that when armies are in the field , men cannot walke so peaceably , as an atturney with his box and papers in westminster hall . i know not what he meanes ; but when two armies are in the field , they may raise warre against the kings people , as well as the king for his just defence ; it is the way to make his people terrified with armies , and to avoid them as a serpent , and therefore it is a dangerous aspersion , as i conceive . with these he concluded , except some things that hee took , by way of artificiall insinuation , to perswade your lordships , that it was dangerous to raise a treason that had laine asleep i know not how many hundred yeeres , and create a treason . a strange thing indeed it is , that a man should be charged with a treason for subverting the law ! a strange thing that one should be charged with treason for killing a justice sitting in the seat of justice , and yet it should bee no treason to destroy king , and kingdome , and people , and all ; all which are destroyed , if the law be subverted . and now having touched upon what he hath spoken , with your lordships good favour , i shall crave leave to run the course i have propounded with my selfe , and that very briefly , that is , upon the whole matter to shew how far the evidence , produced on the commons part , doth prove the charge . my lords , that laid to his charge is a design and purpose to subvert the fundamentall lawes of two kingdomes , and to introduce an arbitrary and tyrannicall government ; not that he did effect it , but that he did intend it : for if he had done it , it had been t●● late to question it , he had left no rule whereby to cal● him to triall ; but his intention and his endevour are his charge . my lords , how farre this is proved ; if your lordships be pleased to call to mind , the articles , and the evidence produced on the commons part , your lordships will find , i beleeve , that his words , his councells , and his actions , doe sufficiently prove his endevouring to destroy . in the first article , where my lord of strafford hath the first opportunitie offered him to put this endevour in execution ( that is the first place of eminency amongst his other places and commands , which , i take it , was his being made president of the north ) he is no sooner there , but there be instructions procured to enable him to proceed in that court , almost in all causes ; for a man can scarce think of a cause which is not comprehended within the instructions obtained after his comming thither : but i shall put your lordships in mind of two clauses of the instructions procured in the eighth yeer of this king , and after he was president ; that is , the clause of habeas corpus , and prohibitions ; that no man should obtaine a prohibition , to stay any suit that should be commenced before him , in the councell of york ; that if any man should be imprisoned by any processe out of that court , he must have no habeas corpus . a prohibition is the only meanes to vindicate the estate of the subject , if it be questioned without authoritie . a habeas corpus is the onely meanes to vindicate his liberty , if it be detained without law : but these doores must be shut against the kings subjects , that if either they be questioned ▪ or restrained before him , there must be no reliefe . how far he could goe further i am to seek , there being no means for the subject to ●●lieve himselfe , if he be questioned for his estate with●●… authoritie ; no meanes to redeeme himselfe , if his person be imprisoned without law . and he had so incircled himselfe about , that if the judges should fine the party that returnes not the habeas corpus , according to law , there was a power , and a warrant , by the instructions , to the barons , to discharge the officers of that fine . and now i referre it to your lordships judgements , whether this be not to draw an arbitrary power to himselfe . for the execution of this power , it is true , it is proved to be before the instructions in the eighth yeere of the king ; but then it riseth the more in judgement against him ; for your lordships have heard how he went into a grave judges chamber , blaming him for giving way to a prohibition , granting attachments against one that moved for a prohibition ; and though this was done before the instructions were granted , yet the instructions comming at the heeles of it , sheweth his disposition and resolution more clearly , for he acts it first , and then procures this colour to protect it : and though he pretends there was no proofe , yet i must put your lordships in mind , that when these things were in question , concerning the apprehension of a knight , by a sergeant at arms , he kneeles to his majestie , that this defect might bee supplied , and this jurisdiction maintained , else he might goe to his owne cottage . and here being the just commencement of his greatnesse , if you look to the second , it followes , that at the publick assizes he declared , that some were all for law , but they should find the kings little finger heavier then the loines of the law . he did not say it was so , but he infused it as much as he could into the hearts of the kings people that they should find it so ; and so he reflects upon the king , and upon his people : the words are proved : and to speak them in such a presence , and at such a time , before the judges and countrey assembled , they were so dangerous , & so high expressions , of an intention to counsell the king , or act it himselfe , to exercise an arbitrary government , above the weight of the law , as possibly could be exprest by words . and this is proved by five witnesses , and not disproved , nor is any colour of disproof offered , but only by sir william penniman , who saies , he heard other words , but not that he heard not these words : if hee doth , he must give me leave not to beleeve him ; for five affirmations will weigh downe the proofe of a thousand negatives . he staies not long in england with this power ( though while he staies you heare how he vexes the subject ) but then he goes into ireland ; and as his authority increases , so he ampliates his designe ; and no sooner is he there , but the third article is laid to his charge , that when the city and recorder of dublin , the principall city of ireland , presented the mayor , upon a solemne speech and discourse concerning the lawes and liberties ( as your lordships know that is the subject matter of a speech at such presentments , as when the lord mayor of london is presented to the king ) i beseech your lordships observe the words he then used , they were a conquered nation , and that we lay not to his charge , but they were to be governed as the king pleases , their charters were nothing worth , and bind but during the kings pleasure . i am to seek , if i were to expresse an arbitrary power , and tyrannicall government , how to expresse it in fitter words , and more significant terms than these , that the people shall be governed at the kings will , that their charters , the sinewes and ligatures of their liberties , lands , and estates , should be nothing worth , and bind no longer then the kings pleasure , specially being spoken upon such an occasion , and the words proved by two or three witnesses of credit and quality . from thence we descend to articles , that shew the execution of his purpose . there be three things a man enjoyes by the protection of the law ; that is , his life , his liberty , and his estate . and now , my lords , observe how he invades , and exercises a tyrannicall jurisdiction , and arbitrary government over them all three . i shall begin with the fifth article , that is concerning my lord mountnorris and denwit . my lord mountnorris , a peere of that realm , was sentenced to death by procurement of my lord of strafford ; who , howsoever hee pretends himselfe not to be a judge in the cause , yet how farre he was an abettor , and procurer , and countenancer , and drawer on of that sentence , your lordships very well remember ; he was sentenced to death , without law , for speaking words at a private table , god knows , of no manner of consequence in the world , concerning the treading upon my lord of straffords toe ; the sentence procured seven moneths after the words spoken , and contrary to law , and himselfe being put in mind of it , my lord mountnorris desiring to have the benefit of the law , and yet he refusing it . and then it was in time of peace , when all the courts of justice were open , and to sentence a man to death of that quality , my lord of strafford himselfe being present , an author , a drawer on of it , makes it very hainous . your lordships remember this article was fully proved , and though he pretends his authority by a letter from his majesty , i shall in due time give a full answer to that , so that it shall rise up in judgement against him , to aggravate his offence , and that in a great measure . here he exercises a power over life , his excuse was , that he procured a pardon for my lord mountnorris ; but the power was exercised , and the tyranny appeared to be the more ; he would first sentence him to death , and then rejoyce in his power , that he might say , there remaines no more but my command to the provost marshall to doe execution . to exercise a power over his life , and to abuse him afterwards , is very high ; but no thanks to him that the sentence of death was not executed , it was the grace and goodnesse of his majesty that would not suffer my lord mountnorris , a person of that eminence , to be put to death against law . but the other was hanged , and , as appeares , against law ; and though my lord pretends the party was burnt in the hand , yet that was not proved , nor materiall : and for him to doe this in time of peace , when the courts of justice were open , it argues a desire in his breast to arrogate a power above law . and in truth i may not omit some observations that my lord made this day ; he hopes his majesty would bee pleased to grant him a pardon . i perceive hee harboured in his thoughts , that hee might hang the kings subjects when he would , and then get a pardon of course for it . the lord blesse me from his jurisdiction . my lords , give me leave to goe back againe , here is power over the lives and liberties of the subject ; but he exercised likewise a tyrannicall power over his estate . your lordships may be pleased to remember the fourth article , where he judges my lord of corks estate , in neither church land , nor plantation land , and therefore had no pretence of a jurisdiction ; for it is a lay fee divolved by act of parliament to the crown ; yet he deprives him of his possession which he had continued for twenty nine yeeres , upon a paper petition , without rules of law . and whereas my lord of cork went about to redeeme himselfe ( the law being every mans inheritance , and that which he ought to enjoy ) he tels him , hee will lay him by the heeles ▪ if he withdraw not his proces : and so when he hath judged him against an expresse act of parliament , and instructions , and bound up a great peere of the realme , hee will not suffer him to redeeme that wrong , without a threat of laying him by the heeles , and he will not have law nor lawyers question his orders , and would have them all know , an act of state should be equall to an act of parliament : which are words of that nature , that higher cannot be spoken , to declare an intention to proceed in an arbitrary way . the next was in my lord mountnorris his case , and rolstone . and here i must touch my lord with misrepetition . rolstone preferred a petition to my lord deputy , my lord deputy himselfe judges his estate , and deprived him of his possession , though he cannot produce so much as one example , or precedent ( though if he had , it would not have warranted an illegall action ) but hee cannot produce a precedent , that ever any deputy did determine concerning a mans private estate ; and if hee hath affirmed it , he proved it not : some petitions have been preferred to him , but what they be non constat . but , though never any knew the deputy alone to determine matters of land , yet he did it . to the seventh article we produce no evidence ; but my lord of strafford cannot be content with that , but he must take upon him to make defence for that which is not insisted upon as a charge ; but since he will doe so , i refer it to the book in print , where he determines the inheritance of a nobleman in that kingdome , that is , my lord dillon , by a case falsly drawne , and contrary to his consent ; and though he deprives him not of his possession , yet he causes the land to be measured out , and it is a danger that hangs over his head to this day . and had we not knowne that we had matter enough against my lord of strafford , this should have risen in judgement against him ; but i had not mentioned it now , if he had not mentioned it himselfe . the eighth article containes severall charges , as that of my lord chancellour , how he imprisoned him upon a judgement before himselfe and the councell , how he inforced the seale from him when hee had no authority , nay , though it were excepted by his patent that hee should no way dispose of it ; but he looked not to authority , further then might make way to his will . another concerns the prime earle of that kingdome , my lord of kildare , whom he imprisoned , and kept close prisoner , contrary to the kings expresse command for his deliverance ; and in his answer my lord acknowledges it , but sayes , that that command was obtained from the king upon a mis-information . these things i would not have mentioned , if he had passed them over ; but since he gives them in , give mee leave to mention , and say , we had a ground to put them into charge , and could have proved them , if there had been need , punctually and expresly , and i beleeve little to my lords advantage . but your lordships i think doe remember my lady hibbots case , where the lady hibbots contracts with thomas hibbots for his inheritance for . l. executes the contract by a deed , and fine levied , deposits part of the money , and when a petition was exhibited to the l. deputy and councell for the very estate , your lordships remember how this came in judgement before my lord deputy ; there was but a petition delivered , there was an answer made ▪ and all the suggestions of the petition denied ; yet my lord spake to hibbots himselfe , that was willing to accept the money , not to decline the way that he was in by petition ; five hundred pound more will doe him no hurt to carry into england with him : and yet , without examination of a witnesse , a decree was made to deprive this lady of her estate : and the purchasing of this land by my lord of strafford was proved by two witnesses , though not absolutely , yet by confession of sir robert meredith , and others , whose names were used in trust for my lord of strafford , and that it proved according to my lord of straffords prophecie ; for the man had five hundred pounds gaine above the contract with my lady hibbots : but after , the lands were sold for seven thousand pound ; so that the lady hibbots offence was her making of a bargain whereby to gain five hundred pounds ; but there was no offence in my lord , to make a bargaine for three thousand pounds , and to gain foure thousand pound presently : this you see proved by hibbots the party , and by master hoy the son of the lady hibbots . so that here is a determination of a cause before the councell table touching land , which was neither plantation , nor church-land , without colour of the instructions , contrary to law , to statute , to practice ; and if this be not an exercising of an unlawfull jurisdiction over the land and estates of the subject , i know not what is . in his answer to this case hee did open it ( yet whether he mistook or no i know not ) that hee had a letter from the king , but he produces none in evidence ; and that is another mis-recitall . i am sorry he should mis-recite , and fix it upon the person of his soveraigne in a case of this nature . now he falls more immediately upon the liberty of the subject , and that is by the warrant mentioned in the ninth article , to be issued to the bishop of downe and conner , whereby he gives power to him and his officers to apprehend any of the kings subjects that appeared not upon proces out of his ecclesiasticall courts , expresly contrary to law ; and your lordships have heard how miserably the kings subjects were used by this warrant , as hath beene proved by a gentleman of quality , sir james mountgomery : and howsoever hee pretends it was called in , it was three whole yeers in execution , before it was called in ; and though he pretends his predecessours did ordinarily grant warrants of that nature , yet he proves no such thing . my lord primate was examined , and he sayes , that bishop mountgomery did tell him there was such a warrant , and one witnesse more speakes of one warrant , and that is all the witnesses produced , and that but to be a copy too . your lordships have heard how he exercises his jurisdiction and power over particulars , and that in a numerous manner ; now your lordships shall find it universall , and spread over the face of that kingdome that was under his jurisdiction , and that is in the tenth article , which concernes the customes : where hee doth impose upon the kings subjects a rate and taxe against law , and enforces them to pay it , or else punishes them for it ; which is expresly an arrogating to himselfe of a jurisdiction above the law . my lords , in his answer he pretends that this is rather a matter of fraud than otherwise : in truth and so it is , and that a great one too . but as it is a fraud , a dis-service , and deceit to his majestie , so it is likewise an exercise of a tyrannicall jurisdiction over his subjects : that it is a fraud to his majestie it plainly appeares , for the king lost exceedingly by it ; whereas before the rent affoorded the king was . l. there was improved by the new lease , that my lord of strafford took but . l. and i beseech your lordships observe how much the king lost by it ; for my lord had comprehended in his new lease the impost of wine , for which the king before that time received . l. a yeere ; and likewise the custome of london durry , colerane , and knockfergus , for which the king had reserved . l. a yeere , besides the moity of the seisures : so here is . l. that the king lost of the old rent expresly : and , if your lordships please , observe the gain and benefit my lord of strafford made by it ; in one yeere he and his sharers received . l. and in the last yeere . l. and that expresly proved upon two accounts : and if this be his dealing , where is his service to the king in his pretence to advance the customes ? it is true , he sayes , the king hath five eighth parts , but it was but within these two yeeres , the king had it not before . and i would very gladly have heard whether the king received his part of an account of . l. if he had received it , i beleeve wee should have heard of it . my lords , there is something more ; here is a new imposition on the kings people without law , and yet i will doe my lord of strafford no injury : but i tell you how the proofe stands ; it was a book of rates framed before he came to the forme , for the booke of rates was in march , and the date of his assignment is in april following ; and therefore my lord saith , it could not be for his benefit . but , my lords , all this while my lord of strafford was in england , and in agitation for the procuring of it , and they come one upon the heeles of another , and i beseech you observe cui bono ; the book of rates was procured within a moneth of the patent , but god knowes whether it were not within the compasse of his intentions to take the patent ; and therefore whether he were not the instrument of raising rates , it rests in your lordships judgement , and all that heare me ; i am sure the benefit redounded to himselfe : and so here is an arbitrary government in imposing and forcing to pay , for that i desire your lordships to take with you ; and hee might as well have raised nineteen shillings on a pound , as nine pence , or three pence , by the same rule of law . the next article in number was the eleventh , and i would be glad my lord had not mentioned it ; it concernes the pipe-staves , wherein he pretends he did the king great service , and that , he sayes , was the reason of our passing over it : but that was not the reason ; it had beene a foule businesse if we had opened it ; but having enough besides , we made not use of it : for the substance of the proofes by multiplicity of witnesses had beene , that the parties themselves that bought the pipe-staves for foure pound odd money , were faine to sell them to his instruments for six pounds , and after to buy them againe for ten pounds , else there must be no licence to export them : but that i would not have mentioned if he had let it slip over . i come to the twelfth article , and that is concerning the tobacco , wherein he pretends the kings service , and , if my memory faile me not , the desire of the parliament , that hee should take this into his hands for the king . my lords , therein , under his favour , hee hath mis-recited the evidence , and spoken that hee cannot justifie ; for he can shew no such desire of the parliament . it is true , there was a desire of the parliament , that the king would be pleased to take his customes into his hands for the advancement of his revenew , that it might goe to maintaine himselfe , and he might not be abused , and others live by it ; but to take the tobacco into his hands , he never did , nor can produce a witnesse to prove such their desire ; and therefore , under favour , he fixes a wrong upon the parliament , and injures your lordships by his reciting that he neither did nor can make good ; for there was no such thing . but if you observe the course he takes , he makes proclamation to hinder the importing of tobacco into ireland ; that if it be imported , it must be sold to him at his own rate ; and by this meanes he first hinders the liberty of the subject from doing what the law allowes him , and so takes on him an arbitrary power ; and secondly , he ingrosses this commodity to himselfe , deceiving his majestie , to whom he professeth so much fidelity ; for whereas there is . l. rent to the king , he , by the computation of merchants , receives neere ▪ l. a yeer : and because their computations are not alwayes true , i doe not care if i allow him . l. mistaken , and then he will gaine neere . l. so that if he intends the kings benefit , it is wonder he told not his majestie of the great profit that might thereby have risen , and let him partake of it , as in justice he should have done , according to the trust reposed in him : but you have heard of no such matter . and surely my lord of strafford would not have omitted it , if it had been for his advantage , especially in this presence , where hee omits nothing to cleere himselfe , or to insinuate with his majesty . now i come to the thirteenth article , the article concerning flax , which i know is fresh in your lordships memories , and i beleeve will be so in the memories of the subjects of ireland for many yeeres , how he ingrossed it into his hands , and interrupted the trade of the poore people , whereby such miseries and calamities befell many of that nation , that , as you have heard it proved , thousands dye in ditches for want of bread to put in their mouths . and whereas he pretends that this was proved but by one witnesse , and that man to be imprisoned , and of no credit , though he was his owne instrument ; your lordships remember sir john clatworthy his testimony , and anothers , and his own warrant produced , and acknowledged here to justifie the execution of it , and such a thing was thereby taken into his owne hands , that i professe i never heard the like , that the poore people should be constrained to use their owne as he pleased , and that pleasing of himselfe laid an impossibility on the people to execute his pleasure , which was a bondage exceeding that of the israelites under the egyptians ; for there was not laid so much upon the children of israel , but there was a possibility to performe ; they might with much labour perchance get stubble to burn their brick , but the natives here must have a charge laid upon them without possibility to performe , and the disobedience must cost them no lesse then the losse of their goods , which drew with it even the losse of their lives for want of bread . this was not proved by onely one witnesse , but by many . and your lordships remember the remonstrance of that parliament of ireland , which declares it to a greater height than i have opened it . the fifteenth article is that of levying warre upon the kings subjects , expresly within the statute of . e. . and . h. . your lordships have heard the warrant proved by the party himselfe , to whom it was directed ; whereby power was given to lay souldiers upon any party , that did not obey my lord of straffords orders at the councell table , but not to circumscribe him to a certain number ; but the seargeant at arms , and his ministers , might lay as many as they would . it is true , this warrant was not it selfe produced , but a copy was offered , which was not read ; and therefore i will not offer it to be proved , but the party that executed the warrant it self , proves it to be under the hand and seale of my lord of strafford , he proves the expresse authority of it , which was to the effect i opened ; three or foure more , who saw and read it , proved the same : and that it was under the hand and seale of my lord of strafford , that accordingly it was executed upon divers of the kings subjects ; it was proved by three witnesses expresly in the point , how by colour of this warrant the sergeant at armes , and his officers , sent souldiers to lye in the houses and lands of the kings subjects ; how the owners were thereby forced out from their own habitation ; how their goods were wasted and devoured , their corn and victuals eaten up , and the souldiers never left them , as long as any part of their estates remained to maintain them . my lord of straffords defence is , that it hath been used before his time in ireland ; wherein hee hath againe mis-recited ; for he did not offer a proofe , nor a particle of a proofe , that ever any man did know souldiers laid upon any party for refusing to appeare to a warrant , or for other contempt at councell table , before himselfe did it ; but hee offered to prove , that formerly souldiers were sent against rebels , and that after they were declared to be rebels , and justly too ; and he proved an use and custome to force men to pay the contribution mony due to the king , but that was by consent of the people , who granted a contribution of . l. a yeere , for encrease of the kings revennue ; and that it might not be upon record in the exchequer , and so claimed as due in time to come , they consented that souldiers should be laid upon them that refused it ; and the word ( consent ) is within the statute of . h. . againe , did he prove all manner of rents were levied by souldiers ? no such thing ; but such rents as were designed for payment of the army : he proved by sir arthur terringham the laying of souldiers once for the payment of a summe of mony ; but sir arthur being demanded whether it were the kings rents , or comprehended within the same generall rule , he could make no answer thereunto . your lordships remember , he sayes he did not know it , and therefore probably it was the kings rents ; and doubtlesse it was so . but if he had produced presidents , it could not be an authority for treason , that if people did not appeare to his orders , he must levie warre against the kings subjects ; and for his extenuation of the warre , that the same was of no great danger , there being not above five or six souldiers layd at a time . i would to god the people oppressed by it , had cause to undervalue it : i am sure foure or six musketiers are as strong to oppresse a man as foure thousand ; so the matter of fact is strongly and expresly proved . besides , though there came not above foure or five to a house , yet the authority given to the sergeant was generall ; he might have brought more if hee had listed : and in truth hee brought as many as the estate of the party would maintain . and as to the not producing of the warrant , i have already answered it . if it were in the case of a deed wherin men call for witnesses , it were something ; but god forbid that the treason should be gone , and the traitor not questionable , if his warrant can be once put out of the way . the next article which is laid to his charge is , for issuing out a proclamation , and warrant of restraint , to inhibit the kings subjects to come to the fountaine , their soveraigne , to deliver their complaints of their wrongs and oppressions . your lordships have heard how hee hath exercised his jurisdiction , and now he raises a battery to secure and make it safe . if he doe wrong , perhaps the complaint may come to the gracious eares of a king , who is ready to give reliefe , and therefore he must stop these cries , and prevent these meanes , that hee may goe on without interruption . and to that end he makes propositions here , that the kings subjects in ireland should not come over to make complaint against ministers of state , before an addresse first made to himselfe . it is true , hee makes a faire pretence and shew for it , and had just cause of approbation , if he had intended what he pretended ; but as soon as he came into ireland , what use made hee of it ? he ingrosses the proceedings of almost all the courts of justice into his owne hands , and so pre-possesses the king by a colourable proposition , and prevents their comming over before they had made their addresse to himselfe , and then he becomes the wrong doer , and issues proclamations for the hindering of the kings subjects to seeke redresse without his leave ; which is as great a proofe of his designe , and as great an injury to the people , governed under a gracious prince , as a heart can conceive . and what his intention was in exhibiting this proposition , it will appeare in the sentence of a poor man , one david , who was censured , and most heavily fined for comming over into england to prosecute complaint against my lord of strafford . it is true , that this was not the cause expressed , but this was the truth of the matter . your lordships remember a clause in the order at councell boord , whereby is set forth the cause wherefore the party is not sentenced , which i never saw in an order before , nor should now , but that my lord foresaw there was danger in it , that he might be charged in this place for the fact ; and therefore puts in negatively why the party was not censured . clausula inconsulta inducit suspitionem . and how defends he this article ? he sayes , his predecessours issued proclamations to hinder the kings subjects from going over , lest they should joyne with o neale and tirconnell beyond sea , and so it might be dangerous to the state ; but because they may joyn with forreiners , shall they therefore not come to the king to make just complaint ? what this argument is , i referre to your lordships judgments . then he pretends a former president , affirming that the like instructions were given to my lord of faulkland ; but was there any , that none should come to their soveraigne to make their just appeale if injured ? surely there was never any such instruction before , and i hope never will be againe . the next article is the nineteenth : and now when hee had so plentifully exercised his tyranny over the lives , the liberty , and the estates of the kings subjects . a man would think he could goe no further ; but see a tyranny exercised beyond that , and that is over the consciences of men : hitherto hee dealt with the outward man , and now hee offers violence to the inward man , and imposes an oath upon the kings subjects , and so exerciseth a tyranny over the consciences of men . and setting aside the matter of the oath , if he hath authority and power to impose such an oath as he shall frame , he may by the same power impose any oath to compell consciences . he pretends a warrant from his majestie to doe it , but the kings ministers are to serve the king according to law ; and i dare be bold to say ( and we have good reason to thank god for it ) if any of the kings ministers tell him that any command he gives is against law , there is no doubt but in his goodnesse and piety hee will withdraw his command , and not enforce execution ; and therefore if there were an errour , the king is free , and the ministers to be justly charged with it . but there was no command from the king to compell and enforce them to take the oath by the power of the star-chamber , to commit them to prison , to impose heavie fines , and tyrannize over them ; all which he did in the case of steward . and now one would have thought hee had acted his part , when he had acted as much as lay in his own power ; and yet he goes beyond this , he was not content to corrupt all the streames ( which was not a diverting of the course , as he spoke in his answer ; for he not onely turned the course of the water , but changed the nature of it , converted it into poyson , a legall and just proceeding into a tyrannicall and arbitrary government , which is not turning , but corrupting of the cleere and christall streams to bitternesse and death . ) but yet the fountaine remains cleere , and perhaps when his hand is taken off , you shall have the streames run as pure and uncorrupt as ever they did . this is it troubles him , remove but this obstacle , and the work is perfect ; and therefore now he will goe about to corrupt the streames : if hee can but infuse his poyson into the kings heart , which is the fountain , then all is done ; and now he attempts that , and approacheth the throne , endeavours to corrupt the kings goodnesse with wicked counsels ; but god be thanked he finds too much piety there to prevaile . and therefore the next article is that , that charges him to be an incendiary to the warre betwixt the two kingdomes : and now i shall be bold to unfold the mysterie , and answer his objection : to what purpose should he be an incendiary ? were it not better to enjoy his estate in peace and quietnesse , then have it under danger of a warre ? now your lordships shall have the riddle discovered . the first thing hee doth after his comming into england is , to incense the king to a warre , to involve two nations , of one faith , and under one soveraigne , to imbrue their hands in each others blood , and to draw armies into the field . that he was this incendiary , give me leave to revive your lordships memories with the proofes which will make it plaine ; and first give me leave to note unto your lordships , that his majestie , with much wisedome , did in july . make a pacification with his subjects , and even at the very heeles of this pacification , when all things were at peace , upon the tenth of september , which was the next moneth but one , your lordships remember the sentence of steward in the star-chamber of ireland , for not taking the oath ; your lordships may call to mind the language my l. of strafford was pleased to use of the scots : when all was in quietnesse , he then calls them no better then traitours and rebels , if you will beleeve what the witnesse testifies , whom my lord is pleased to call a school-master : and truly admit hee were so , because he is a school-master , therefore not to be beleeved , is a non sequitur . and another witnesse , one loftus , speaks to the words , though not in the same manner ; but , i say , the tenth of september , when things were at peace and rest , when the king was pleased to be reconciled to them by that pacification , what boiled in his breast then to the breaking forth of such expressions , i know not , unlesse it were an intention to be an incendiary . my lords , i must say and affirme , and he hath not proved it to the contrary , that all this while ( i am confident ) there was not any breach of the pacification on either side , and it lyes on his part to prove there was : but the parliament of scotland then sitting , and making preparation for their demands in pursuance of the articles of pacification , hee , comming over into england in september , immediately upon the pacification , answers , that he found things so distracted here ▪ that it was fit the scots should be reduced by force , if they could not be otherwise : yet no breach appeares , no war was denounced , there was no intention of a warre : but see what harboured in his breast all the while ? the fourth of december following , my lord traquaire made his relation to the councell of the scots proceedings : and all this while there was no demands brought by the scots themselves , nor reason of their demands brought by others , though they were prepared ; yet you have heard his advice was for an offensive warre , and that the demands were a just cause of the war . and though he pretends hee said no more then what the rest of the lords of the councell concurred with him in , i will joyne in issue with him in that , and if some of your lordships be not satisfied , you have many noble lords among you , from whom you may be satisfied that it is not so ; i am sure he proves it not . it is true , in the proposition of the demands some of the lords of the councell did say , that these demands hypothetically , if the scots did not give satisfaction by their reasons , were a just cause of warre ; but not any lord of the councell was of opinion , that the very demands , positively , without hearing of the reasons , were a just cause of warre , but himselfe ; and i beleeve the noble lords of the councell their consciences can tell them , and i beleeve will deliver it to the rest of the peeres , that i speake truth . for the offensive warre he pretends a concurrence of the rest , but it was disproved ; many were for it upon these termes , if they did not give reasons , and shew just cause for their demands ; and many were against an offensive warre upon any terms , and therefore herein he fixes that upon the lords of the councell , that hee cannot make good . all this while his intentions are discovered by a matter precedent , but after the breach he discovers his anger further towards the scottish nation , and makes it his designe to incense the king to this warre . my lords , hee is not at an end yet , for he confesses himselfe that hee advised the king to call a parliament ; and now i come to his work of merit , but it was to his destruction , and serves to prove this article directly ; for to what purpose was this parliament called ? exitus acta probat ; it was no sooner set , but within three weekes a proposition is made for supply towards a warre against the scots : who was the cause of calling the parliament ? himselfe ; and therefore who was the cause of this proposition but himselfe ? and so the calling of the parliament is a concurring evidence of his being an incendiary to put on the warre ; and it shall appeare anon absolutely , that he was the occasion of it , though he thinkes there be no proofe of it . did not he goe over into ireland , and by his solicitation there , subsidies were granted by the parliament , onely to maintaine this warre , and to shew their ingagement in it ? and who was the occasion of drawing them on , i referre to your lordships judgements , by the circumstances precedent . your lordships heard his good opinion of the scots , when he began to discourse with the citizens touching money , and their affording of the king supply , and seising the mint , by giving them no better expressions than rebels ; for , saith he , you are more forward to help the rebels , than to pay the king his owne : i know not who hee meant , but certainly the scots were in his thoughts ; so that from the beginning he incensed the warre against them : first , hee exclaimed against them during time of peace . he alledges in his answer , that things were found in such distraction , that it was fit the scots should be reduced by force ▪ he gave advice precipitately without hearing the reasons , and not concurrent to the councell , for an offensive warre ; and putting all together , i referre it to your lordships judgement who is the incendiary ; for how can it be proved more cleerely , unlesse it should appeare under his hand and seale , proved by two or three witnesses ? now , my lords , how comes this to be his designe ? here the mystery comes to be unfolded . having thus incensed to the warre , and ingaged the king to the uttermost , and having a parliament now dissolved without supply , he sets up an idol of his owne creation , as a means to draw on his designe , and that was necessity ; necessity is it that must enforce the king : what to doe ? to levie money , to use his prerogative , to raise supplies upon his subjects without their consent , against their will , necessity must be his argument , and this warre must be thē occasion of that necessity , and without that he cannot suggest to the kings eare , or advise this necessity , till this bee brought to passe . and now he hath brought it to passe , he began in the one and twentieth , two and twentieth , and three and twentieth article , to perswade the king ▪ that necessity hath surprized him , by the parliaments deserting of him ; that the parliament had forsaken the king , in denying supply , and having tried the affections of his people , hee was loose , and absolved from all rules of government , and had an army in ireland which he might employ , to reduce this kingdome . that he spake these words to the king , part is proved by two concurrent witnesses , that is , that having tried the affections of his people , he was now loose , and absolved from all rules of government ; which words are proved by two witnesses of eminent quality , that is , my lord of northumberland , and sir henry vane : and truly , howsoever my lord in his speech pretends , that the most materiall words are proved but by one witnesse ( it seeming that hee held it not a materiall charge , that he counselled the king that he was absolved from all rules of government ) for my part , if your lordships be satisfied those words were proved , i could willingly satisfie my owne conscience in it , and make no great matter to quit the rest ; for i know not how he could expresse it in higher termes , then that the king was absolved from rules of government , for then he might doe what he would . it is true , the latter words , touching the irish army , are expresly proved but by one witnesse , master secretary vane ; but are fortified againe with such circumstances as make up more then one , yea , more than two other witnesses , if your lordships will have the patience to have it represented , as it is proved . for howsoever it be slighted by him , if your lordships will call to mind the words of sir george radcliffe , his bosome friend ( to whom he had contributed without question his advice in all causes ) the said sir george radcliffe expressed it before , and told some of his friends ( supposing that he never should be called in question , and that the power of my lord of strafford had been enough to protect any thing he had done , and out of the aboundance of the heart his mouth spake ) the king must now want no money ; if he did , no body would pity him , now he had his sword in his hand . sir robert king proves it so . my lord renula discovered the smoake of the fire that hee had just cause to suspect , and on good grounds , i am sure ; and if the commons of england had not just cause to suspect him ( as i beleeve he is convinced they had good cause ) what is the reason this suspition should bee entertained at that time , my lord of strafford being not then questioned for it ? and yet my lord renula should say , shall wee turne our swords upon our owne bowels ? shall we bring this army to turne the points of our blades upon that nation from whence we were all derived ? and that was before any conference with master secretary vane . sir william penniman himselfe , his owne witnesse and friend , sayes , at york , before my lord of strafford was questioned , that there was a common fame of bringing the army into england , and there is something in that surely ; and after all this , to produce one witnesse that expresly proves the very words spoken in terminis , as they bee charged , if your lordships put the whole together , see whether there be not more then one witnesse . and , under favour , my lord cottington , if you call to mind his testimony , i must justifie , he did declare , that he heard my lord of strafford tell the king , that some reparation was to be made to the subjects property ; which must inferre , he had advised an invasion upon the property ; else by no good coherence should a reparation bee made . and that he testifies this , i must affirme , and most here will affirme it ; and i think your lordships well remember it : and that is an addition to it ; for if your lordships cast your eye upon the interrogatory administred to my lord admirall , and my lord cottington , that very question is asked ; so that his owne conscience told him , he had advised something to invade upon the people , when he advised to a restitution after things should be settled : and so i referre it to your lordships consideration , whether here bee not more then one witnesse by farre . it is true , he makes objections to lessen this testimony ; first , that this army was to be landed at ayre in scotland , and not here ; and this was declared to sir thomas lucas , master slings by , sir william penniman , and others . secondly , that others that were present , when the words are supposed to be spoken , did not heare any such words . for the first : perhaps the army might be originally intended for scotland , and yet this is no contradiction but he might intend it afterwards for england ; surely this is no logick , that because it was intended for one place , it could never be intended for another place ; so his allegarion may be true , and the charge stand true likewise . beside that it was intended orriginally for scotland , what proofe makes hee ? hee told severall persons of the designe , but i will be tryed by himselfe , he told some , it was for scotland , he told others it was for england ; and why you should beleeve his telling on one side , more then on the other side i know not ; though he pretends a reason of his severall allegations that the world should not know his designe , but if you will not beleeve him one way , why should he be beleeved the other way ? and if not the other way , why the first way ? for the second , severall persons were present when the words were spoken touching the irish armie , and they were examined , and remember not the words ; but one man may heare , though twentie doe not heare ; and this is no contradiction at all : for those persons whom he examined , the lord treasurer , marquesse hambleton , my lord cottington , did not heare the words that are proved by two witnesses , concerning the kings being loose , and absolved from rules of government : and if they did not heare those words , no marvaile they did not heare the other : and therefore that which hee himselfe pretends to be a convincing testimonie , is nothing at all ; so that his objections are clearely taken away , and the single testimonie fortified with testimonies that make above one witnesse , and so the words are fully proved . but to fortifie the whole , i shall handle all these articles together , this designe to subvert the law , and to exercise an arbitrary power above the law in this kingdome , will ( upon the proofes putting them altogether , and not taking them in pieces as my lord of strafford hath done ) appeare to have been harboured in his thoughts , and settled in his heart long before it was executed . you see what his counsels were , that the king having tryed the affections of his people , was loose and absolved from all rules of government , and might doe every thing that power would admit , and his majesties had tryed all wayes , and was refused , and should be acquitted of god and man , and had an army in ireland , wherewith if hee pleased he might reduce this kingdome : so there must be a triall of his people , for supply that is denyed , which must be interpreted , a defection by refusall , and this refusall must give advantage of necessity , and this necessity must be an advantage to use his prerogative against the rule of the law , and consent of the people ; this is his advice . which shewes that this very thing that hapned did harbour in his thoughts long before the breach of the parliament , and the occasion of the armie . your lordships have heard it confessed by himselfe , that before this last advice , he had advised the calling of a parliament : to the parliament a proposition of twelve subsidies was made for supply , and ( which may be spoken with great assurance ) before they had consulted , or given any resolution to that proposition , the parliament was dissolved , upon a supposal that the supply was denied . now that this was predesigned by my l. of strafford himselfe , i beseech you observe these things following , that is , the words in the two and twentieth article , that his majestie was first to try the parliament , and if that did not supply him , then he would serve the king any other way . his words are proved by mr. treasurer , that if the parliament supplyed him not , hee would serve him any other way ; and this is before the parliament set : now if your lordships heare the proofes of my lord primate ( which my lord of strafford slights taking it singly ) my lord primate before the parliament was called , when my lord of strafford was in ireland , and not yet come into this kingdome , testifies , my lords , saying , that if the parliament will not supply his majestie , the king was acquitted before god and man , if hee tooke some other course to supply himselfe , though against the will of the subjects . i beseech your lordships observe how he prophecies these things must come to passe , and advised them accordingly . my lord conway testifies , that before the parliament sate , my lord of strafford said , that if the parliament would not supply his majestie , the king was acquitted before god and man , if hee tooke another course to supply himselfe , though it were against the will of the subject , and he doubts not but the parliament would give , what ? twelve subsidies : and your lordships very well remember , twelve were propounded ; but i beseech you observe the coherence of all : the parliament must be called , they must be tryed , if they deny there is necessity , and this necessity is a warrant for the king to proceed ; so that my lord of strafford must be judged to be either a prophet , or to have this designe before hand in his thoughts . now the parliament being broken before answer to the demand given , he vents his counsell in the three and twentieth article , and how far it is proved your lordships have heard . now comes the bullion to be seized , the copper money to be advised , and now comes he to tell the king that the aldermen of london must be put to fine , and ransome , and laid by the heeles , and no good would be done till some of them bee hanged , so you heare his advice ; i beseech your lordships observe what successe this advice tooke ; foure aldermen were instantly committed , and then the councell of the three and twentieth article is fomented . first , he foments the warre , then there is a necessitie , the defection of the parliament must set the king loose from rules of government , and now see whether the occasion of the warre , the calling of the parliament , the dissolving of it , be not adequate to what he propounded to himselfe , namely , to set up an arbitrary government . your lordships remember how fresh my lord of bristowes memorie is , touching my lord of straffords opinion upon the dissolution of the parliament , how he declared unto my lord of bristow instantly within three or fower dayes after , that the king was not to be mastered by the frowardnesse of his people , or rather of some particular persons ; and your lordships remember sir george wentworths words spoken the very day of dissolving the parliament : which may be very well applyed as a concurrent proof to his intentions of bringing the army into england . he was my lords owne brother , that knew much of his councell , and his words are , that the english nation would never be well , till they were conquered over againe . so my lords put all together , if he declared his owne intentions , if actions , in executing of this tyrannicall , and arbitrary power , if counsels of as dangerous consequence , in as high a strain as can be , be not a sufficient evidence to prove an intention , and desire , to subvert the law , i know not what can prove such an interpretation : and now i referre it to your lordships judgements , whether here be not a good proofe of the article laid to his charge . my lord in the seven and twentieth article hee is charged with levying of warre upon the kings people , by forcing them in yorkshire to pay money : to prove they were so forced , you have heard by two witnesses , that sergeant major yaworth , by musketeers , fower together in the towne , and one by one out of the towne , did compell them to pay the fortnights contribution , else they were to serve in person : that hee did this by warrant is likewise confessed by sir william penyman ; and whether this were an authoritie derived from , or commanded by my lord of strafford , that is the question ; and , my lords , it is plainly proved , that it was commanded by my lord of strafford , for sr. william penyman himselfe being examined , alledged that the warrant was made in pursuance of the relation , and direction made by my lord of strafford . your lordships heard what my lord of strafford did say before hand , as is proved by two witnesses , ( sir william ingram and mr. cholmeley ) that this money should be paid , or levied on the subjects goods ; then his declaration to sir william penyman , ( in pursuance of which he made his warrant ) that it was the assent of the lords of the great councell , that this money should be levied ; and taking all together , whether it fixes it not upon him to be the authour and instrument , it rests in your judgements in point of fact : and so i suppose the seven and twentieth article rests on him , and so i shall conclude the evidence produced on the behalfe of the commons . and now give me leave to put your lordships in mind of some evidences offered by my lord of strafford himselfe in his answer , and in the passages of his defence , for his clearing and justification , but tending directly to his condemnation . i will enter upon some passages he mentioned to day , and often before ▪ when he is charged with invading the estates of the peeres of the kingdome of ireland , and determining them , upon paper petitions in an arbitrary way ▪ your lordships have heard him speake it before , and repeat it this day , that he did it out of compassion for the more expeditious proceeding on behalfe of the poore , against these mighty ▪ but then , my lords , i beseech you compare some other part of his proceedings . your lordships remember the businesse of the flax , which concernes the poore wholly and universally ; and if compassion had beene the rule and direction of his actions towards the poore ▪ surely this would have beene a just cause to have commiserated them in this case ; but hee exercised his power over them , and over them wholly , and over them universally : and therefore it shewes , it is not his compassion to the poore , nor respect to the rich , or mighty , that will any way restraine or obstruct his wayes , to his owne will . and therefore you may see what truth there is in his answer , by comparing one part of the charge with another , when the businesse of the flax brought that calamity upon the kings subjects , that thousands of them perished for lacke of bread , and dyed in ditches . secondly , your lordships have often heard him use a rhetoricall insinuation , wondering that he should be charged with words , and they strained so high as to be made treason , to question his life , and posterity , though the words might be spoken unadvisedly , or in discourse , or by chance : your lordships remember the fifth article touching his proceedings against my lord mount-norris where words were spoken in an ordinary discourse at dinner , and slight ones , god knowes , of no consequence at all , such as another man would scarce have harkened after , and yet my lord extends them to the taking away of my lord mount-norris his life ; gets a sentence of death against him , and that against law , with a high hand , in such a manner , as i thinke your lordships have not heard the like ; and therefore , i beseech you , compare one part of his answer with another , and see how ready he is to make use of any thing that may excuse himselfe ; and yet when he comes to act his power , you see his exercise of it . you have heard how hee magnifies his zeale for advancing the kings benefit , & revennue , and his care of his service , and would shelter and protect himselfe under it , to justifie an exorbitant action ▪ but if your lordships call to mind the businesse of customes for tobacco , ( which in truth were the kings right and due , and a great profit was thereby advanced ; and he trusted to advance it . ) the king must loose of his former rents in the case of custome , and received a small rent in the case of tobacco , my lord himselfe in the meane time imbursing such vast summes of money : where is then the discharge of his trust ? where is his care to advance the kings rents ▪ to encrease his revennue ? compare that part of his answer with this , and see what credit is to be given to his affirmation . my lords , throughout the passages of his discourse he insinuates , ( and never more then this day ) with the peeres of the realme , magnifying them almost to idolatrie ; and yet my lords , when he was in his kingdome , in ireland , and had power over them , what respect shewed he then to the peeres of the kingdome , when he judged some to death , trampled upon others in misery , committed them to prison and seized on their estates ; where then was the peerage he now magnifies ? and to shew it was an insinuation for his owne advantage , you may remember , when there was an unlawfull act to be committed , that is , the levying of money in the north , what regard had he then to the peeres of the kingdome , when hee comes to justifie and boulster up high treason it selfe , under the name and authoritie of the great councell , where most of the peers of the realm then were ? and so by this time i know what credit your lordships give to his words spoken , when he lyes under your mercy , and power : but what doe i speake of the peers of the kingdome , and his using of them ? my lords , he spared not his soveraigne , his majestie in his whole defence ; for being charged with offences of a high nature , hee justifies those offences under the pretence , and under the authoritie of his majestie , our gracious king and soveraigne , even murder it selfe , in the case of denwit , and my lord mountnorris . treason it selfe , in the fifteenth article by a command in ireland , and in the seven and twentieth , by a pretended authoritie from his majestie in the face of his people ; hee justifies my lord mountnorrice his sentence by a letter from his majestie , denwits sentence by a commission from his majestie , and hee read three or fower clauses to that purpose . my lords , my lord of strafford doth very well know ( and if he doth not know it , i have a witnesse to produce against him , which i wil not examine , but refer it to his owne conscience , that is , the petition of right ; ) that the kings servants are to serve him according to law , and no otherwise : he very well knew if an unlawfull act be committed , specially to a degree of treason and murder , the kings authority and warrant produced , is no justification at all . so then , my lords , to mention the kings name , to justifie an unlawfull act in that way , can doe him no good ; and his owne understanding knowes , it may doe the king harme , if wee had not so gracious a king , that no such thing can doe harme unto . but , my lords , to produce the kings warrant to justifie his actions under his patent and command , what is it else , but so farre as in him lies , in the face of his people , to raise a cloud , and exhale a vapour ? to interpose betwixt the king and his subjects ? whereby the splendour of his glory and justice cannot bee discovered to his people . my lords , what is it else , when the people make complaint against the ministers ( that should execute justice ) of their oppression , and slavery , and bondage ? for the minister , when he is questioned , to justifie this under the kings authority , what is it , i say , but , as much as in that minister lies , to fix this offence , to fasten this oppression upon the king himself , to make it to be beleeved , that the occasion of these their groanes proceeded from his sacred majestie ? yet god be thanked the strength of that sunne is powerfull enough to dispell these vapours , and to disperse the cloud that hee would have raised ; but in the meane time my lord is nothing to bee excused . my lords , he may pretend zeale to the kings service , and affection to his honour , but give me leave not to beleeve it , since , when he is questioned by all the kings people , and in the face of his people , and offences laid to his charge , which himselfe now confesses to be against law ; he should justifie it under the kings authority ; that savours not of a good servant : i will say no more . my lords , he is charged with exercising of a tyrannicall power over the kings people , and in his defence your lordsh●ps have often heard ( and i may not omit it ) that he shelters himself under the protection of the kings prerogative , though he be charged with tyranny of the highest nature that may be : see then how foule and malignant an aspect this hath . my lords , what is it else , but to endeavour , as much as in him lies , to infuse into the kings heart an apprehension , that his prerogative is so bottomlesse a gulfe , so unlimited a power , as is not to be comprehended within the rules of law , or within the bounds of government ? for else why should he mention the prerogative , when he is charged to exceed the law ? what is it else , but , as farre as in him lyes , to make the people beleeve ( for i may not forget the words hee hath used ) by his magnifying of the prerogative , that it hath a speciall stamp of divinity on it , and that the other part of the government that god pleases to put into the kings hands , had not that stamp upon it ? as if anything done by one , was to be justified by authority derived from heaven , but the other not . these expressions your lordships remember ; and i may not omit to put your lordships in mind of them ; and i can expound them no otherwise , then , as much as in him lies , to make the subject beleeve and apprehend that which is the buckler and defence of his protection , to be the two edged sword of his destruction , according to the doctrine he preached ; and that that which is the sanctuary of their liberty , is the snare and engine of their slavery . and thus he hath cast a bone of contention , as much as in him lay , betwixt king and people , to make the subjects loath that glorious flower of his crowne , by fixing a jealousie in them , that it may bee a meanes of their bondage and slavery . but there is so much piety and goodnesse in the kings heart , that i hope , upon faire understanding , there will be no such occasion ; but no thankes to the party , that so much adva●●ed the prerogative in the case and condition he stands in , to justifie that which is laid to his charge of high treason . my lords , i beseech you give me leave ; there is no greater safety to kings and people , then to have the throne incircled with good counsellers ; and no greater danger to both , then to have it encompassed with wicked and dangerous ones ; and yet i beseech you call to mind how hee hath attempted to deprive the subject of all meanes to discover this danger , by insinuating to your lordships , what a dangerous thing it were , if counsellers should be called in question for giving of counsell ; for who then ( saith he ) would be a counseller ? where is your safeguard ? where is the kings service ? is not this , as much as in him lies , to deprive the people of the means whereby they must make themselves happy , and whereby the king must be happy , that is , by his having good councellours about him ? and yet he infuses that venome , that the questioning of counsellours is dangerous both to king and peeres , if it should be brought into example . my lords , for many yeeres by past , your lordships know an evill spirit hath moved amongst us , which in truth hath been made the author and ground of all our distractions , and that is necessity and danger : this was the bulwarke , and the battery that serves to defend all exorbitant actions : the ground and foundation of that great invasion of our liberties and estates , the judgement in the ship money , and the ground of the counsell given of late to doe any thing , and to perswade the king that he was absolved from all rules of government ; and yet your lordships have observed in the course of his defence , how often he hath raised this spirit , that god be thanked hath beene laid , to the great comfort of king and kingdome , by your lordships , and all the commons in parliament . and when he stands under this question , and goes about to justifie his exorbitant actions , how often hath he created this idol againe ? and therefore i am affraid he discovers too much his owne heart in it . my lor : i may not omit some other passages in his defence , how he hath cast scandalls upon three nations in this place ; that is , in his first day of defence , when the irish remonstrance , made by all the commons of ireland , was produced by the commons of england ; he expressed in a passion , that things were carried against him by faction and correspondence , and ( if hee had time he would make it appeare ) with a strong conspiracy . here is a scandall cast upon the parliament of ireland with a reflection on the commons of england ; howsoever , it is true your lordships may remember the recantation he made that day , which i will not omit , desiring not to lay any thing to his charge but what is true ; but it is the reflection of a scandall that i cannot omit to put your lordships in mind of ; and the rather , because this remonstrance , presented from the parliament of ireland , did beare date before my lord of strafford was charged here , which is very remarkable , viz. the seventh of november ; and therefore , though he pretends a correspondence , certainly there could be none then , for he is not charged here til the tenth . and the same day , justifying a sentence in the castle chamber , your lordships remember he affirmed , that unlesse a strict hand were kept upon the nation there , they would find it hard to prevent perjury , one of the most crying sinnes in ireland . now to lay an aspersion upon the subjects of ireland , being under the government of the same king with us , how fit this is to be done by a man in that condition that my lord of strafford is , i referre to your consideration . another passage i remember , whereby in his defence he fell upon that nation ; in answer of which i may not omit to do the service i owe to the commons for whom i am trusted , and that is , that talking of an arbitrary and tyrannicall government , in reference to some orders of the commons house in ireland , hee used words to this purpose : you talk of an arbitrary government , looke upon these orders , here is an arbitrary government : and yet when he produced the orders , they appeared to have so much justice and discretion in them , that he can lay nothing to the charge of them , though in a passion he is not backward to asperse them . my lords , if this lyon ( to use his own language ) now that hee is chained and muzzled under the restraint and question of high treason , will here take the boldnesse to vent this language , and expresse this malignity , how would he doe if he were unchained ? how would he devoure ? how would he destroy ? &c. my lords , something concernes your lordships ; your lordships remember that hee was not backward in his owne answer , to fix a charge of high treason upon the lords of the great councell ; and howsoever , hee hath affirmed this day , i must open it againe , that the charge of the seven and twentieth article he fixes in his answer to be by consent of the lords of the great councell , though he hath since recanted it ; and yet you have heard him alledge , that he will stand and fall by the truth of his answer . my lords , i am now at an end . you have my lord of strafford here questioned for high treason , for going about to subvert the fundamentall lawes of both kingdomes , in defence whereof your noble ancestors spent their lives and bloods . my lords , you are the sonnes of those fathers , and the same blood runs in your veines , that did in theirs ; and i am confident you will not think him fit to live , that goes about to destroy that which protects your lives , and preserves your estates and liberties . my lords you have the complaints of three kingdomes presented before you against this great person ; whereby you lordships perceive that a great storme of distemper and distraction hath been raised , that threatens the ruine and distraction of them all . the commons , with much paines and diligence , and to their great expence , have discoved the jonas , that is , the occasion of this tempest . they have still and will discharge their consciences , ( as much as in them lyes ) to cast him out of the ship , and allay this tempest . they expect and are confident your lordships will perfect the worke , and that with expedition , lest with the continuance of the storme , both ship , and tackling , and mariners , both church and common-wealth bee ruined and destroyed : the danger and horrour of this storme , your lordships shall heare by the gentleman that is next to speake . finis . an appeal of murther from certain unjust judges, lately sitting at the old baily to the righteous judge of heaven and earth; and to all sensible english-men, containing a relation of the tryal, behaviour, and death of mr. william anderton, executed june . . at tyburn, for pretended high treason. grascome, samuel, - ? approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : - (eebo-tcp phase ). a wing g estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) an appeal of murther from certain unjust judges, lately sitting at the old baily to the righteous judge of heaven and earth; and to all sensible english-men, containing a relation of the tryal, behaviour, and death of mr. william anderton, executed june . . at tyburn, for pretended high treason. grascome, samuel, - ? , [ ] p. s.n., [london : ] by samuel grascome. caption title. discusses the trial of william anderton, tried for high treason, after being accused of printing two pamphlets: "remarks upon the present confederacy and the late revolution in england" and "a french conquest neither desirable nor practicable". he was sentenced to death and executed at tyburn on june th, . -- cf. plomer. includes "to the right honourable sir john fleet, lord mayor of the city of london, and the rest of the commissioners for the goal delivery of newgate. the humble petition of william anderton a convicted prisoner in newgate.". reproduction of the original in the christ college library, oxford. created by converting tcp files to tei p using tcp tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between and available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the , texts created during phase of the project have been released into the public domain as of january . anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. % (or pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf- unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p , characters represented either as utf- unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng anderton, william, d. -- early works to . lawton, charlwood, - . -- french conquest neither desirable nor practicable. anderton, william, d. . -- remarks upon the present confederacy and the late revolution in england &c. trials (treason) -- england -- early works to . execution and executioners -- early works to . sedition, england -- early works to . printers -- england -- biography -- early works to . printing -- england -- history -- early works to . - tcp assigned for keying and markup - spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images - john latta sampled and proofread - john latta text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an appeal of murther from certain unjust judges , lately sitting at the old baily , to the righteous judge of heaven and earth ; and to all sensible english-men , containing a relation of the tryal , behaviour , and death of mr. william anderton , executed june . . at tyburn , for pretended high-treason . were all men truly good , publick laws would be of little or no use . for all political laws are the good daughter of a bad mother , as being preventionally or occasionally the off-spring of ill manners ; but without them there is no living in any comfort or security : hence all civilized nations have ever gloried in their laws , as their honour and safety , and heretofore none more than the english , and perhaps none with greater reason ; for it may be a difficult task for a well-read historian to find out a kingdom under the cope of heaven , where the lives , liberties , and properties of subjects are more cautiously and critically secured ; but especially in case of life ( the foundation of all humane blessings ) wherein no conjectures or presumptions are allowed , but the law requires at least two credible and positive witnesses , and if any thing be doubtful or controverted , always judgeth in favorem vite , and makes even the judg himself of councel to the prisoner , that he may by no means miscarry through any error , ignorance , passion , or inadvertency . but after all , the law is a dead letter , and cannot execute it self ; and when it so happens , that the laws , which were made against offences , are seized by the offenders , and turned against those whom they were designed to protect , the sins of any nation can scarce draw upon them a more heavy curse and judgment : for then the sheep are daily dragg'd to tryal before the wolf , and nothing but villany is maintain'd , encouraged , and promoted ; and an honest man had a thousand times better fall into the hands of a confederacy of high-way-men , who will rob and dispatch him with some kind of generosity , than under the clutches of a corrupt minister of law , who after a swinging mortification in a nasty prison , shall at length in a great deal of state , with mighty formality , and tedious ceremony , proudly doom him to death , and all under colour and pretence of those laws , which , if they could speak for themselves , would acquit the prisoner and hang the judge ; and whether the following case be not a fresh and lamentable instance of something too like this , i shall leave wholly to the readers judgment , after an impartial perusal . mr. william anderton knowing himself to be mortally , though caulesly hated , by some persons , had absconded of late for a considerable time , as it has been the hard fortune of divers great and good men to do in these difficult times ; but being by a parcel of false villains betrayed to mr. robert stephens , messenger of the press , and his sworn enemy , he was apprehended on the second of may this present . and stephens ( whose malice much out-weighs his brains ) not content with his person , plainly plundered the house , carrying away goods to a considerable value , which there was no colour of law for him or any man else to seize ; and this i suppose might be one great motive , to make him swear so desperately at the tryal , that he might take away a man's life , who otherwise might come upon him for robbing him of his goods ; the booty secured , away he goes , in triumph with his prisoner , to my lord chief justice holt , where he railed against him in a very indecent manner ; the judge was very calm , and said very little to the matter , but , upon the accusation , committed mr. anderton to newgate , not for high treason as is falsely alledged , by that lying pamphleteer , licensed according to order , who published that malicious account of his conversation , behaviour and execution which was cryed about streets immediately after his death ; that judge knew the law better , and i believe is not in himself so very forward to overstrain it . whilst he thus stood committed for misdemeanour , he was bailable ; and accordingly very sufficient bail was offered for him ; but aaron smith , who wisely weighs what advantage is to be made of every prisoner , and considers not only the person himself , but the interest he is engaged in , and the friends he may be supposed to have , thought too few guineas were offered ; and therefore still kept off the bail endeavouring to make a better market ; but while things hung thus between the bail and the bail-master , on a suddain the controversy was ended by the coming of a fresh warrant upon the former , which committed the prisoner for high treason . this way of proceeding being somewhat unusual gave occasion to divers censures ; some said , it was only a trick to prevent his being bayled : others said , that the fact , though never so fully proved , could not amount to high treason , and that they could not touch his life ; and that they had hereby done him a kindness , because upon his tryal he would be discharged without any further imprisonment or corporal punishment : but these , i suppose , were more conversant among the lawyers than the politicians , and could better tell what ought to be done , than what some men were contriving to do . others judg'd this fresh commitment to be the result of new councels , and a plain evidence , that they had taken new measures ; and therefore did hence conclude , that he was thought a person not only dangerous , but fit to make an example , and that therefore it was resolved he should be hanged right or wrong : and the event proved these to be in the right . now such illegal proceedings and bloody councels very ill becomes those who complained of smaller failings in others , and have turned all things upside down under a pretence to mend matters and reform abuses ; but there is nothing more sanguinary , than a pretending state-reformer ; nothing more cruel and savage , than a moderation-man got into power . but these doings being naturally so odious to english men , i hope they will consider , that the difference is not great , whether they be hanged with popish or protestant halters ; and will see at last , that they have a very ill security for their lives , liberties , and properties , when those who take upon them to guard them from popery , become more lawless and cruel than papists . there were indeed some even in the councel who did dislike these proceedings : but others prevailed ; and it would not be forgotten , that there is a certain sly plump divine , who perhaps is as good at hocus pocus tricks , as any man in europe ; he can cut a man's throat so neatly , that he shall never know who hurt him ; he will put at his pleasure all into confusion and hurry , make men so mad that they know not where they are , nor care what mischief they do ; and all the while , as if he had gyges's ring , shall walk invisible , and shall not be so much as suspected to have had any hand in the matter : to this crafts-master robin stephens made haste over the water to set forth his great services , and to receive ample praises , if not a reward . but his expectation was sadly baulk'd ; for the oracle fell foul upon him , telling him , that now he was threatened to be turn'd out of his place he could find these men , and that it might justly be thought that he had been confederate with them all this while , and false to the government ; and that if he did not give better testimony of his good affection to the government , and that he was an enemy to such kind of men , he might lose his place for all this . now all this is only an use of instruction to a messenger who was malicious enough of himself ; for the plain english of it is this ; 't is true you have taken a printer , but what of that ? for unless you go through with your work , and swear him out of his life , you do the government no service , and had as good have done nothing at all : guilt is ever merciless and bloody , a man is got into the head of a schism , has seiz'd on n●bath's vineyard , and there wanted not much but they had kill'd to secure the possession ; for had not fuller's plot miscarried we had had a jezebel's fast , and sons of belial had been set up to testify , that the poor old innocent gentleman did blasphemy god 〈◊〉 the king ; now the prisoner was of a trade that told tales , and the wicked mufty strongly presum'd that this was the man , who had not only often refresh'd his memory with the mention of his guilt , but did give him some disturbance in the possession of his ill-gotten goods , and therefore he was unpardonable , such a man he could not endure should live . but though he knows not how to forgive , yet i heartily wish he may repent , that god may forgive him , lest he find hell a more difficult place to get out of than of late he imagin'd . i shall pass by several circumstances , which perhaps some would think material , that i may avoid tediousness and come to the tryal itself , which was begun on thursday june , but respited till saturday following , that this bloody scene might be acted with the greater solemnity . the court being set , several appeared on the bench , but his real and effectual judg was treby , one of the old republican strain , and as fit a person as could have been pickt out for such a murderous design ; this man being recorder of the city of london , when the lord russel was condemned for high treason , and by his place being to pass sentence upon him did declare himself exceedingly troubled in mind and mightily dissatisfy'd because there was only one positive witness , and other circumstantial evidence against his lordship , and not two positive evidences to the same fact , as he said the law required : but see how mens consciences can face about , when their malice is to be gratified ; he could now brow-beat , revile , and in effect force a jury to bring in a verdict of high treason , when there was not one positive evidence to any matter of fact , nor indeed any evidence at all , that could directly affect the prisoner as to the matter in his indictment . the lord deliver me and all honest men from trebyan justice . herodotus relates of cambyses , that he took an unjust judge and caused his skin to be slead off , and tann'd , and therewith the seat of justice to be lined , and then put his son in the place , who sitting upon his father's hide , could not want a monitor to make him careful to pronounce righteous judgment ; and for my part i cannot give a reason why christians should not be as sollicitous to have justice duly administred as heathens . mr. anderton made it his request , that he might have a copy of his indictment , but it would not be granted ; and indeed so great care was taken , and so strict a charge given , that neither before nor after his tryal could any copy be obtained , so long as he lived ; whether it may be had now i know not . the crime laid to his charge was the composing , printing and publishing two malicious treasonable libels : the first intituled , remarks upon the present confederacy , and late revolution in england ; the second , a french conquest neither desirable nor practicable . as to the later of these it is now certainly known , that he had no hand in it , and that it was printed at a press which he never saw , and by persons with whom for a long time he had no communication : and it must be allowed to be a reasonable supposal , that his judge knew this at the time of his tryal . for the government had at that time in their custody those persons , who knew when and where it was printed ( and as it was said ) had made a discovery of all ▪ perhaps of more than they knew : the papers of that sort taken upon the prisoner were sent to him the day before he was seized ; and some have a vehement suspicion , that it being resolved he should be taken the next day , those pamphlets were sent before hand that something might certainly be found upon him : but his innocence in that matter hath since been made evident to all the world by an irrefragable testimony ; for this september sessions at the old baily , price in open court made oath , that he and the prisoners then at the bar , newbolt and butler , printed the french conquest . this was both a surprise and a choak-pear to some there , and a murmuring noise ran through the court , whilst some whisper'd , and was anderton then hanged for that which othes have done ? and the attorney general , a man who need not be taught to speak , was struck dumb and look'd blank , i suppose in anger and indignation that he should be impos'd upon to accuse a man of a thing for which he lost his life ; and the same man in the same court proved innocent . for this i do think of him that he would not knowingly prosecute a false accusation against an innocent man , tho this is more than i would say of the judge . upon the tryal the principal evidence against the prisoner was robin stephens the messenger : now all courts of judicature use to have a particular regard to the credibility of the witnesses , and not to throw away any mans life upon the testimony of infamous malicious persons ; and such as care not what they swear . now the man is yet living to bear witness of it against whom robin stephens in malice made oath before a justice of the peace , that he was a busie , troublesome dissenter , came not to his parish-church , nor had received the sacrament there , for the space of twelve months then last past , and the gentleman being brought before the justice of peace to satisfy the law in that case , he gave such convincing evidence to the said justice that he was a constant churchman , and for eleven of the said twelve months had received the sacrament at his own parish-church , that the justice gave him his warrant to take up stephens for making a false oath ; and the warrant he lately had to produce , and i believe hath still . but what a rare fellow this is for honest mens lives to depend on , you shall farther perceive by the testimony he gave upon the tryal . one thing whereof mr. stephens made oath was , that at the time of mr. anderton's apprehension , he did in words disown the government , and call'd k. w. hook nose , not submitting himself . now as to the words this is absolutely false ; for some scuffle there was but not a word spoken . mr. anderton in the time of his health and liberty was a man of integrity , and so far from being given to lying , that he particularly hated a lyar , and such a person no one can think would persist in a needless lye at his death ; and to the very last he denyed the speaking any such words ; but for a further evidence he told to several persons the very reason of his silence . for he said he knew robin stephens to be short-sighted , but withal that he knew his voice , and that while he did not discover himself by speaking , he was in some hope to give him the slip . but if robin stephens be pleased a little better to recollect himself , he may then perhaps remember that another person about three days before that time had said such words to him ; but he ought to have a care how he transfers matters from one man to another ; for that is the way not only to condemn the innocent , but to acquit the guilty : but after all , suppose it true , that he had spoken that unhandsome word ; a disrespectful term it might be , but treason it was not , neither was it any thing to his indictment ; and why then should a judge make such a bustle about it , and exercise his wit thence to prove the prisoner disaffected to the government ? what hath a judge to do with a man's affections ? if a jury will be prevail'd on to find a man guilty of high treason for saying a man has a hook-nose , who really has a hook-nose , they will hang a man for speaking truth ; and that is an ill country for an honest man to live in . another part of mr. stephens's evidence was , that he there took an old trunk fill'd with papers and pamphlets , and that he had seen the said trunk formerly , and knew it to be mr. anderton's , and lest the poor old trunk should not be sufficiently taken notice of , it is put into the ordinary's paper , and also into that which was cry'd about on the day of his execution . now the reason of swearing to the knowledge of the trunk was , because it was not found in any of the rooms that could be proved to belong to mr. anderton : but if robin stephens had never seen that trunk before , then he must make a false oath in swearing that he had seen it before , and that he knew it to belong to mr. anderton : and indeed he had never seen that trunk before , nor did it belong to mr. anderton . for i can name the gentlewoman to whom the trunk did belong ; and in whose constant use it hath been for these ten years last past and upwards , in whose house robin stephens never was that she can tell , nor doth she so much as know him ; and some weeks before mr. anderton's apprehension she innocently lent the said trunk to a person who said she had occasion for such a thing for a little time , and did expect it to have been returned but now she must lose her trunk , and dare not own it , lest she should bring herself into a great deal of trouble for doing a common neighbourly kindness . but the evidence which was principally relyed on , and which seemed most strongly to affect the prisoner , was the matter of the desk , as to which robert stephens made oath , that he took out of the said desk or of a sort of the remarks and french conquests . now herein lay the great master-piece of robin stephens's villany , for he had seen the desk formerly , and might well remember and swear to the knowledge of it , and moreover the desk was taken in a room , which was owned to belong to mr. anderton ; but all this comes short ; for it is no treason to have a desk , yea even a notoriously known desk ; and therefore to do the feat it was requisite , that some books should be found in that desk , and then it would be reasonably supposed , that the books did belong to the owner of it ; though this is no infallible reasoning . for mens books , moneys , and other commodities , are often laid up in other mens desks ; every thing is not a man 's own , which he has in possession . but the truth is , there was not so much as one of the remarks or french conquests in the said desk ; and if after mr. anderton was apprehended , robin stephens or any of his gang did steal the said desk , and put such treasonable papers into it , i would ask of any indifferent person , whether he , or they , or mr. anderton ought to be hanged for it ? i could name the person who hath more than once told me , that when-ever he could appear with safety , he would be ready to make oath , that about an hour before mr. anderton was seized he had occasion to look for something in the said desk ; and that at that time there was nothing in it , but two quires of clean white paper , and some bound books ( i.e. such as the bible , common prayer-book , whole duty of man , and books commonly used in families ) and not any stitcht books , and that he was with mr. anderton to the very minute that he was taken , and is as sure , as it is possible for man to be , that neither he nor any other did put any such books into the said desk from the time he had occasion to search it , to the time of mr. anderton's apprehension , for which he gives many convincing matters in evidence , too long to be here inserted . he had no occasion to speak of this till after the tryal ; for he could not foresee such a malitious contrivance , nor know before-hand what stephens would swear ; or if he had , he durst not appear to give evidence , lest he himself should fall under the same sate ; but it is well known , that the prisoner peremptorily denied any such books to have been there , though he own'd the desk ; and he used an argument to convince the bench of the truth of what he said , drawn from the very evidence given against him , viz. that the desk was small and not able to contain half so many books , as were sworn to be taken out of it ; and for proof hereof desired that the desk might be brought into the court for the juries , and all others satisfaction : but his righteous judge would not allow it , but shuffled off the matter , saying , that the number of books was only matter of supposal . but then is blood with him so cheap , and can he be satisfied in conscience to hang a man for a supposal , and that supposal false ; and such a supposal , that he himself durst not suffer to be examined , lest it should have made it apparent , that their grand evidence was a perjured rogue ? this was the only piece of evidence that did in the least seem to affect the prisoner ; and therefore ought to have been fairly and fully canvassed , and not so lightly huddled and sham'd over ; all the other evidence was nothing to the purpose ; and if even this had been true , it could not have cast him . for the having books in a desk is neither compossing , printing , nor publishing , which is the crime charged in the indictment . the substance of the aforesaid testimony concerning the books being taken out of the desk was seconded by the evidence of hooper beadle of the hall , and the constable and his beadle . now though the falshood of the thing is already made manifest , yet i shall retain some charity for these persons , till i find cause to the contrary ; because it is very probable , that they might be deceived . for if stephens , or any agent of his , in the time of the huddle , and removal of things , did put such books into the desk , and afterwards examine it before the said constable and beadles , they might ignorantly swear to his contrivance ; and they might truly say such books were taken out of the desk , and not know that stephens and not mr. anderton put them in . but there is one thing , which shews them to be too loose and heedless in the matter of an oath , in that they alledged so many of the french conquests to be there , when it is certain there was not the fourth part of so many in the house , which ( as i have already told you ) were sent him the day before , and which the government it self now ( if it did not then ) well knows were not printed by him . and yet after all this multitude they were content to fall to one of each , that they might be particularly sworn to ; and when mr. constable was asked , how he knew those to be the books , and was desired by the prisoner to read the titles of those books whereof he accused him , truly it appeared , that the learned gentleman had been bred to no such dangerous things as writing or reading . now could a more unquestionable witness have been produced to printed books , and their titles , than a man that cannot read ? but for a help at a dead lift , it was said that he had made his private mark on the said books ; but then it ought to be considered . that his private mark was made to the two books at the lord chief justice holt's chamber , which robin stephens produced out of his pocket , when the prisoner was brought to be examined . now what did his mark set on two books at the lord chief justice's chamber , which were all the while before in another man's custody , signify to prove that those were the books , which were about four hours before taken out of a desk in s. james's ? robin stephens might have produced what books he pleased , and in all likelihood this man would have set his private mark on them ; but if he would have been sure , he ought to have set his private mark at the time of their being taken out of the desk ; but if there were not villanous treachery in the case , there was no such book to be marked . would any judge , who had either a grain of sense or conscience , hang a man upon such evidence as this ? i suppose it is for a blind , that stephens swore , that coming to the door ( i. e. scudamore's ) and asking what lodgers they had , turning his head aside , he saw the prisoner's mother in the yard , who crying out murther , the prisoner came out of the house , and fell upon him . for i cannot imagine what should make him swear such a needless lye , unless it were to cover the treachery , whereby the prisoner was betray'd , and to bear the world in hand , that he accidentally discovered him by espying his mother . for his mother was not in the yard , but in the common room , which they used for their kitchen ; and stephens came into the yard , and directly to the door , which by chance at that time was bolted ; and when he could not by force get in ( for the prisoner's wife and mother spying him out at the window would not open the door ) he took down a pane of glass , and was striving to come in that way , whereupon they opened the door , and at the out-cry of his mother and wife in that room , the prisoner mr. anderton came upon him , who had escaped the buzzard , had it not been for the strong guard he had set . this piece of evidence also admirably well agrees with another , that he saw him shoving up a bed , which ran upon wheels . now the bed stood in a room , from which you must come thorough two doors into the yard . in short , mr. anderton did not shove up the bed , nor was he first seen to stephens at this time of his apprehension , either in that room , or in the yard , but in their kitchen or common room lying between both . and indeed as to this matter the prisoner convinced him of the falshood of it in the open court ; but however it was taken no notice of . the witness must not be disparaged or discouraged , though some men will be apt to wonder at his wit , how he could contrive to forswear himself in so many particulars . besides stephens , the constable and the beadles , there were also two printers sworn , viz. roberts and snowden , the substance of whose evidence was , that they had seen the characters in the hall , together with the &c. and that they did believe it was the letter that printed that book , ( i. e. the book then shewed in court ) as also that the two books were printed with one and the same letter or character . now if this evidence be true , it ought to have acquitted him ; if it be false , it ought not to have hurt him . for the government well knows where and by whom one of the books was printed , and that it was not printed by mr. anderton , nor had he any manner of hand in it , or any communication at that time with those printers ; and if both the books were printed with the same letter or character , then i think it is a pretty fair and clear inference , that he printed neither of the said books , and consequently ought upon this evidence to have been discharged . but be the matter true or false , what signifies believing in this case ? is one man to be hanged for anothers believing ? malice is put to its shifts , when without any colour of legal evidence it is forced to believe a man out of his life . but if such evidence as this shall be looked on as good and satisfactory in matter of life , i think the whole society of printers are deeply concerned in it , and that they are all in very dangerous circumstances ; for i am assured by a very understanding printer , that there is not a printing-house in town , but hath of the same sort of letter or character , so that upon such an oath as this , any or all the printers of the town might have been taken , and whom they thought fit hanged . for there is none of them but had characters as suitable to the book , as that which was sworn to ; and if it had been seized , and thus sworn to , they were as lyable to be hanged as anderton . at this rate the government need not give themselves the charge of a messenger of the press , nor the trouble of such frequent searches ; but as soon as any seditious or treasonable pamphlet comes abroad , it is but going to the next printers and seizing his letter , and having found some of the same sort of character , to get a couple of rattle-headed fellows to swear to it , and hang him ; and thus they may pick and chuse what printers they please to hang. was ever such a wise oath made by two printers ? but snowden was made choise of , for his notoriously known malice against the prisoner , and no doubt but his fellow was endued with some excellent quality or other . there was brought in another witness , who made oath , that about three quarters of a year before , he had sold the prisoner paper by the name of williamson . now what is the crime of buying paper ? the stationers would have an ill trade , if every man should make himself a traytor , who becomes a customer to any of them . whatever they conjectured , no body offered to prove , that he made any ill use of his paper ; and then if he had bought half the paper in the town , i know not what harm had been in it , provided that he had honestly paid for it . what need was there to have troubled such a witness as this ? there can scarce be thought any other reason , but that they were resolved to run a man down with noise and number , against whom they wanted sufficient evidence . thus i have examined the witnesses , and i do not know that i have omitted any thing material spoken by them ; their business was to fix the press , letter , and pamphlets upon the prisoner , to prove he worked there , but particularly , that he printed the two books laid in the indictment ; which if their evidence did not amount to , it signified nothing . now if a man carefully consider the whole evidence in relation hereto , he will plainly perceive , that it was either false , inconsistent , or impertinent , and after all nothing to the purpose . for he stood indicted for composing , printing , and publishing two particular pamphlets , viz. the remarks and ●●●●●h conquest . i suppose they themselves did not think him the composer , that word was put in for formality's sake ; but however if they did , there was no offer in the least to prove it ; nor was there any proof , that he printed both , or either of the books laid in the indictment , or any other book , or that he printed at all ; nor was it proved , that he published the said books , or any other books ; nay , there was not the least thing , that looked like an evidence towards any one of these things ; so that there was not one tittle of his indictment proved . let us now see what art this reverend judg could use to condemn him ? for any man who had known the laws of england would have thought he had been safe enough . the prisoner with a great deal of calmness and clearness had all along made appear the insufficiency of the evidence ; but the judg , he as much crys it up , strains all his rhetorick to set glosses upon it , over-rules all , and though for fashion-sake he leave it to the jury , yet he perswades them , that they could not but see in it , what no body else could : and now like a knavish disputant , who begs the the question , he takes for granted , that the matter of fact was proved , though the contrary was as clear as noon-day . but then from this false supposition of the proof of matter of fact , there arose matter of law , viz. whether printing were treason ? and in consequence hereof , whether it were within the purview of the statute of the edw. ? as to this , the prisoner desired he might have the benefit of councel , and pleaded his right to it , urging not only the privilege of every english-man , but that it was the practice of all our courts of justice , and that no man was denied councel where any matter of law arose , and instanced in the case of sydney and others , to whom the judges freely and readily assigned councel as to matter of law , and own'd it to be their right . but the business of our tender judge was by any means whatsoever to cast the prisoner , and to make several new presidents in this one man , nor durst he trust so plain a case with the meanest lawyer : or that had been to expose their own malice and weakness , an 〈…〉 and whole court would easily have seen through the business ; but as for the prisoner himself they thought he might easily be dealt with , and the matter veiled ; for either by the advantage of their skill in law , or the awe of their authority , such a person might be easily quelled , and therefore they peremptorily deny to him , what was ( as the learned in the law tell me ) never denied to any man before , councel as to matter of law. being thus shamelesly over-ruled , he was constrained to be his own councel . a hard case , and a very discouraging part to plead law against a judg of law , who improved his art and authority , against him to the utmost , and appeared resolutely bent to have his blood right or wrong . nevertheless not to be wanting to himself , he undertook that part , and made such a plea as stunn'd his jury , and gave satisfaction to the whole court , except such as came thither with a resolution to murther him . the things which he principally insisted on , as to matter of law , were three . . that printing ( though even that was not proved ) was not treason . . that the crime laid to his charge came not within the purview of the edw. . . that if it did , yet by the said statute he ought to be discharged ; because there was not such witness against him as that statute requires , and without which it condemns no man. and these he proved fully and clearly by several cases in law , by several authorities from that great oracle of law the lork coke , and from our plain laws and statutes themselves , he argued from the statute whereon he was indicted , that whereas that made two things treason ; conspiring the death of the king , and levying war. the printer , who worked for hire , could not be guilty of this what-ever the author might ; and further that the books contained nothing of such matter , but the contrary , of which he produced an instance full and plain ; he also urged , that that statute allows no conjectural presumptions , inferences , or strains of wit , but direct and manifest proof by , at least , two witnesses , whereas there was not one against him , that spoke to the purpose , or any thing like it ; he pressed and explain'd the statue mo marie , even to a demonstration of his case . for whereas that statute saith , no act , deed or offence , shall be adjudged treason , but such as are declared and expressed to be such by the of edw. . it is absolutely impossible , that printing should be any ways declared or expressed in that act , it not being known in england till eight kings reigns after , and not long invented , before it travail'd hither . any man that had but a grain of sense , reason , or conscience , would have thought this should have struck the matter dead ; but he still urged further an act of their own ; and where men will not so much as stand to their own acts , happy are they who have nothing to do with such . in the reign of king charles the second , an act was made to prevent abuses in printing , &c. by which the printer upon the first offence is disabled to follow his trade for three years , and upon the second disabled for ever with fine , imprisonment , or other corporal punishment not extending to life or limb ; this is pretty severe , and yet a great way off treason ; but this being in favour of that king was made only for his life , and consequently expired with him ; but no longer since then the last sessions of parliament was this very act revived , and the present government obtain'd it not without great strugling : but to what purpose ? or i would fain know what favour was done it , if there were more effectual remedies before ? and i think it may be worth while for the parliament when they sit next to consider for what reason they revived that law , or whither it be to any purpose for them to make that or any other law , if even whilst they are fresh made , and in all mens view and knowledge , a judg shall dare openly not only to set them aside , but to violate them , and judge contrary to them . but i shall trouble the reader no further with his plea , which had been here inserted , but that some thought it would be too tedious , and not so proper for all sorts of persons , as being fraught with much latin and french , which he was necessitated to use as to the matters he cited . in short , he acquitted himself so well , that all indifferent persons were abundantly satisfied , and yet it proved to no more purpose than a wall-lecture . the reason is , the tryal was only a piece of pageantry , and the man was condemned long before ; but to over-rule this without more ado , had been a down-right affront both to law and reason , and therefore mr. judge must needs make a flourish ; and now a man would expect , that he should have gon through all the cases , statutes , and arguments used by the prisoner , and fairly and fully confuted him ; but i thank you , no such matter ; if the man had but little honesty , yet he had more wit ; he warily leaves it all in the lurch , and to put a blind upon the matter , makes a bluster with two or three old musty impertinent presidents , which had not seen the sun for many ages , the chief of which was that of sir john oldcastle lord cobham , and he might as well have urged the case of the man in the moon . for what was my lord cobham's case to printing ? that famous wicklevite lived in the reign of richard the second , some scores of years before printing was thought on , which came not into england till the reign of henry the seventh ; and the prisoner had very well observed , that what is not expressed in the statute edw. . ( and it is impossible printing should be expressed there ) is barr'd from being any ways adjudged or interpreted treason , by the statute mo marie . in short , in summing up the evidence to the jury , the judg acted not the part of a judg , but rather of a keen malitious councel or accuser , and mustered up all his arts to insnare and impose upon the jury ; he aggravated to the utmost every little punctilio , which he thought might be any thing servicable to beget in the jury an hard opinion of the prisoner ; he could not let the bed with wheels alone , but whipt it up and down like a top ; he could not forbear brushing the poor man's night-gown ; he rambled from st. james's to hoxton , and fetcht in every little trifle with all the witty malice imaginable ; nay , if you will believe him , he lookt into the very soul of the man , and told the jury what was within him ; he was an ill-minded man , a disaffected person , he was no lover of the government ; and in my conscience i cannot tell how he should , the government had not used him to well , that he should be passionately fond of it ; but above all he took mighty pains to beat it into their heads , that printing was an overt act : but on the other hand , of there being two witnesses to the proving the fact ( alas , he knew there was not one ) or of any thing the prisoner had pleaded though plain and substantial law , or of any thing that did make for the prisoner , not a word did he speak ; and when he had thus disguised the business with all the skill he had , the jury were sent out to consider of their verdict . whilst the jury were withdrawn all sorts of people were big with expectation , what would be the issue of the business ; many , who who were very well affected to the government , thought he could not be found guilty , and do not stick to say still , that he had very hard measure ; nay , even robin stephens , who thirsted for his blood , was fearful he would escape ; for as he was passing along the streets coming up to three gentlemen , one of whom asked what they thought would become of mr. anderton , stephen's laying his hand on mr. m — sh 's shoulder said thus , the rogue pleaded bravely , and i believes hopes he hath friends among the jury to get off ; but if such as he are acquitted , the government must give us orders to stob them whereever we find them . i think this is a faithful servant of the government indeed , a man who will go through stitch with his work ; but then , my dear country-men ! what would become of the laws , if every rogue should have a license to murther whom he pleaseth ? after two hours debate the greater part of the jury became very well inclined to have found not guilty ; but there was a true trojan amongst them , one who loved mischief and the government in his soul ; and he was for hanging men for being jacobites , not for being guilty : and being since told of the severity of their verdict , he readily acknowledged , that the evidence did not amount to the proof of the fact , but , saith he , what of that ? i believed he was guilty , and i will hang a hundred of them for half so much evidence . a very useful man , and certainly deserves a pention , if he have not one already . when the jury appeared , the question was asked , whether they were agreed of their verdict ? a zealous man answered , no. whereat the court fround , and shew'd themselves much displeased , when the fore-man of the jury ( who is a man well affected to the government , but withall a sensible man , not malicious , and desirous that all men may have fair play for their lives ) put this question to the bench , whether the having those things by him , without making any further use of them , did affect the prisoner as to life ? now this question was very pertinent . for all that was proved against the prisoner , was that such things were found there , and it ought to be taken notice of , that though the thing was call'd in question , yet it was not proved , that the room , where the things were found , did belong to him ; and there was a person present in court , and brought thither by means of robin stephens , who offered to make oath , that the room was hired by one williams , and that the said williams had paid the last quarters rent for it ; whereupon stephens and others gave her very ill names , and with great threatnings drave her out of the court , and both she and her husband have been somewhat scurvily used since . the question , though very proper , was nothing pleasing ; but after some frowning and pouting , treby arose and answered , no. in which answer he plainly acknowledged , that all that was offered in proof against the prisoner , did not affect him ; but then he further said , that was not their business , they were to find it printing , and that was a sufficient overt-act . but then is printing treason ? if so , then we have a trade that is treason , at which men work every day , and are allowed by law , which is not more severe against any thing , than treason . but perhaps he will say , he meant the printing these books ; but with his good leave , there was no such thing proved , nay , not so much , as that he printed at all . and must a jury find a matter of which no manner of evidence at all is given ? he might as well have bid them find it conjuring , for any proof that was offered of it . but if the thing were supposed , yet i believe his lordship is the first , that ever declared printing as such , to be an overt-act of treason ; and i shall leave it to the learned in the law to declare , when they shall think fit , what crime that is , and how to be punished , when a judg takes away a man's life by declaring that to be an overt-act of treason , which the law doth not so account . but i cannot omit it , as seeming to me a thing of sad and dangerous consideration , that when some of the jury-men , as by way of complaint , said thus . my lord , our fore-man is of opinion , this fact is not proved . he presently replied , whether it be proved or no , you ought not to determine ; the bare finding the books in his custody would not be treason ; but the case is , gentlemen , here is a man that has a printing-press , to which no man has admission but himself ; and this man is found with errata and &c. ( not a tittle of all this proved ) so that he must needs print the treason . to this a pert jury-man answered , 't is a very strong presumption , my lord ! and then baron powel clenched the nail with this grave saying . a violent presumption is as much as if a man had been there and done it himself . what blessed times are these ? would not a man think , that astrea were come down from heaven again , and sat in court ? for was ever such brave justice known ? the jury are sworn to proceed according to their evidence , but the judg tells them , they are not to determine whether the thing be proved or no. i. e. they are brought thither to be forsworn , and to hang men contrary to their oath upon the bare say-so of a lying corrupt judg. the law says there shall be positive evidence in case of life , but a great lawyer says , a violent presumption is the same thing . in plain terms , ( country-men ) this is not to murther a single man , but to murther the laws ; and the most innocent english-man breathing has no security of his life against a presuming judg. these answers , or rather shams , being returned to the questions , after some other ill words , and ill looks , the jury were sent back again , where almost three hours more were spent in debating the matter before they could come to a conclusion , and then part complied , rather tired and frighted than convinced ; the last , who came in , was the foreman ; and it is besitting the times , for the head to follow the tail ; nor were they arguments , but terrours , which shock'd his judgment , and brought him off at the last ; some of his fellow jury-men used him rudely , gave him very ill language , and threatned him high with the government , and thus all being awed into a compliance , away they come with their wicked , but to the court welcome , verdict , and bring in the prisoner guilty . and now the judg , to shew how acceptable it was to him , falls a stroaking the jury ; and endeavours to make them some amends for the hard words he had given them before , telling them , that they had done like honest and good men , and had brought in a verdict agreable to their evidence . the most impudent lye that ever was spoke from a bench ; for there was not one tittle of evidence either as to his composing , printing , or publishing , which was the crime laid to his charge in the indictment . but the foreman , when he came to have the liberty of his thoughts , was not pleased with what was done ; and that he might prevent the mischief , what in him lay , he did declare his dissatisfaction , and that also was made known , and at another time , had been enough to have staid judgment : but they had gained their wicked point , and would not depart from it ; sentence according to course was put off to the last day of the sessions , in the mean time the prisoner , that he might either save his life , or leave those who sought his blood without excuse , had a petition drawn and delivered , which is as followeth . to the right honourable sir john fleet , lord mayor of the city of london , and the rest of the commissioners for the goal delivery of newgate . the humble petition of william anderton a convicted prisoner in newgate . sheweth , that whereas your petitioner has been by the jury found guilty of printing the books laid in the indictment , and thereby is concluded from questioning the legal evidence they had for it , though your petitioner humbly appeals to your lordships observations and consciences , whether all that was sworn came up to more , than bare circumstantial evidence , of his bare printing them ; which in cases of treason , as your petitioner is informed , has never been allowed . and whereas your petitioner was advised , that bare printing these books ( admitting the same proved ) could not by the laws be construed as an overt-act of treason in the bare printer ; and your petitioner requested the court again and again , that this matter might be argued by his counsel , which the court were pleased not to permit . your petitioner yet notwithstanding , not doubting of your lordships inclinations , not only to do him all justice , but to shew him all the mercy and favour you can that may consist with your lordships justice ; and humbly conceiving , that this court , by further considering your petitioner's case , may , even yet , be capable of relieving your petitioner , especially , if upon hearing what your petitioner can say , your lordships shall be satisfied , that your petitioner hapned to be convicted through any errour or mistake , ( as no man was ever exempt from errour , and the best of men are always readiest to confess it ) your petitioner therefore humbly beseecheth your lordship's patience seriously to read and consider some few ( of many ) reasons which your petitioner hath heard from others , which he herein has set down as briefly as he can as followeth . ) first , they lay down , that the treason laid in the indictment , being that of the intent of the heart , ( expressed in the statute by compassing and imagining the king's death ) requires by law two proofs , the one of the fact , the other of the inference , and that both these must be plain ; that of fact called the overt-act ) must be proved by direct and positive evidence , by two witnesses at least , and not by circumstantials only ( as this of printing was against your petitioner , there being no positive proof at all , not so much as by one witness given of his printing either of the books laid in the indictment . ) and then , that of fact being thus proved , must by necessity of inference as evidently and certainly prove , that the party in doing such overt-act could intend or imagine thereby nothing less than the king's death ; and if either of these proofs fall short of such necessary certainty such indictment must fail , the law , for great reasons , regarding only such plain and direct proofs in these great charges . now can a printer , quatenus only the printer of these books , be thereby inferred to assent to and approve of the matters and things contain'd in these books , and that necessarily too , quatenus the printer ? by the same legal logick every printer may be proved to have in his heart and approve of all the opinions , notions and imaginations contained in all the books he ever printed : for , a quatenus ad omne valet consequentia . 't is true ( say they ) writing and speaking have , in some instances , been accounted as overt-acts , and there might be good reason for it , as a man expressing his own mind by his own writing , and by his own words , which , according to the manner of his writing or speaking , may evidently appear to come from his own heart ; and your petitioner doth not doubt but that the writing a book , as in cardinal pool's case , and the signing the warrant for the execution of king charles the first , as in the case of the regicides , which cases were urged by some of the court against your petitioner , were sufficient overt-acts , to prove the compassing and imagining the king's death . but can these instances be any thing to the case of a printer ? whose business it is , as a printer only , to print the thoughts of others , being accounted in law only as a meer mechanick , and whose end thereby is to get money for his work. and for further reason in this matter , they observe , that as it doth not appear that bare printing was ever pretended to be an overt-act within stat. edw. . so when the parliament of car. . carried up treason to the highest , for the preservation of the king's person during his life , and ( among other things ) particularly therein took notice of printing , yet would they not thereby lay so great a penalty upon the printers , as , no doubt , considering the unreasonableness of comprising such tools and mechanicks within an act intended for persons of higher designs : but this parliament kept the printers in their remembrance , as intending to consider them by themselves in another act , as they very soon after did ; for the very same parliament in and car. . make an act which they stile , an act for preventing abuses in printing seditious , treasonable , and unlicensed books and pamphlets , and for regulating printing and presses ; and therein , as they fix them their rules and bounds , so they allot them their punishment : which , for the first offence , is disability for three years ; and for the second , perpetual disability , fine , imprisonment , or other corporal punishment at discretion . wherefore , the premises throughly weighed and considered , your petitioner humbly implores your lordships , that , in favour of life , in a new and extraordinary case , and that too , of treason , your lordships would be pleased to extend so much mercy to your petitioner as to suspend your judgment and pronouncing sentence upon on him untill your lorships shall have heard what can be further offered by counsel on his behalf . and your petitioner shall ever pray , &c. here is no need of a comment ; this petition speaks for it self , and doubtless will continue to speak to their everlasting shame , who answered it only with neglect and scorn . when the last day of the sessions came , and the prisoner was asked in course what he had to say , why sentence should not be passed upon him ? he desired that his petition might be read ; but the court not being willing to take notice of the knowledge of any such petition , thereby to elude his request , he foreseeing it , had provided one ready , and offered it to be read , but no man daring to take and read it , he took the freedom to read it himself , and then offered these things further in arrest of judgment , which he drew up by way of queries . . whether if a jury not being competent judges of the matter of fact whereof they are to judge , and bring in their verdict against the defendent contrary to law ; i say , whether judgment ought to pass upon the defendent because of that verdict ? . whether if a judg , ( who is counsel for the defendent , and therefore indispensibly bound to take particular cognizance of what the defendent urgeth in his own behalf , as well as what is alledged against him ) in summing up the evidence , doth omit ( out of forgetfulness or otherwise ) the only material point upon which the whole indictment is founded , and which the defendent so much urged in his own behalf ; and also which inevitably led the jury into this mistake of their verdict ; whether , i say , this be not sufficient to stay judgment ? . whether any judg , &c. can construe printing to be a sufficient overt-act , till it be so declared by parliament ? . whether the stat. of car. . does not plainly intimate the contrary ? and likewise the and car. . lately revived . these queries , and this petition , will some time or other be thought considerable ; and the rather for that the prisoner did make it his humble and last request , that these things being matter of law , he might be allowed counsel to plead them , or any other matter of law in his case . and he backt his request with this modest reason ; that being matter of law , he thought the satisfaction of the judg's conscience concerned in it , as well as his life ; but if his counsel could be satisfied or fairly over-ruled in it , he would acquiesce without more ado . the matter now lay wholly before the city recorder salathiel lovel ; and some persons perhaps will wonder how the soppish tool could so easily get over these matters ; but he is mounted into a station above himself , and now thinks himself above all sense , reason or law : thus much he knew , that his business was to doom the man to die , not to expose the matter by disputing the case , and therefore after a flourish or two of empty rhetorick , he in a bravery proceeds to pronounce that dreadful sentence , which the law allots to treason ; which is not barely death , but to have the heart and bowels torn out and burnt , and the body dismemb'red , and the quarters set up or disposed as authority orders . thus innocence falls before the guilty ; and it is the triumph of a hardned sinner to wash his hands in blood . whilst mr. anderton was preparing for his death , his friends were struggling for his life : he had many friends upon the account of his known ability , industry , and integrity ; others were taken with his manly behaviour , and clear pleading upon his tryal ; and others were more forward to move in his case in pity or indignation at his lawless usage . those who were concern'd in it , might have observed the activity and zeal of charitable and pitiful christians , the fair and open dealing of some generous noble persons , the pretty fetches and tricks of little courtiers to hook in a prize , but above all the artifices of a council in declining what was before-hand resolved should not be granted . the queen ( as still upon occasion it was answered ) could do nothing without the council , nor the council without the queen ; if the council was met , the queen was not there , or if she was there , there wanted such and such of the council , without whom nothing could be done ; and thus things at every turn were shuffled off : but where the danger is imminent , and time short , persons are willing to watch hard and look out sharp ; taking this course his disconsolate wise had at last so fairly set the council , that it was thought they could not avoid giving her a direct answer ; for though they were resolved he should not live , yet ( the matter being so warmly debated amongst all sorts of persons ) they were not willing to say peremptorily he should die : to put her by now , this artifice served effectually ; a number of waiters attending about the council chamber fell foul upon the poor woman , in no very courtly language , reproaching and reviling her , that she did not bring her husband to confession : in short , they so teazed and plagued her , that they drove her away , and an old hag followed her , persecuting her , and all that came near her as friends , with such vehement and bitter language , that they were forced to quit the place . but of these things there is a worthy pious gentlewoman , who never spares any pains to promote a work of charity or mercy , can give a better account than i ; and they being too long to be inserted here , with her , and to her careful observation , i leave them . it did at last plainly appear , that the reason of caiaphas prevailed , it was expedient one should die . ( pardon the expression , for the very words were used , ) and therefore no matter whether the law was strained , or not ; they had caught a man whom they thought fit should die , if not for his crimes , yet for example : and thus we have bravely secured our lives , liberties and estates , when men are hanged for reasons of state , not for offences against law. i now draw near to his last exit , only i crave leave to premise a very short account of his life . mr. will. anderton was born at wakefield in yorkshire , sept. . . his father's name was also william anderton , an eminent clothier in that town , his mothers elizabeth , the daughter of mr. maximilian topham , she is yet living , a woman of a masculine spirit , yet as pious as couragious : for though in this man she lost the son both of her love and support , ( for she is fallen into poverty ) and would readily have given her own life in exchange to have saved his , yet she bore it with such a christian magnanimity , that she did not stick to say , that she thanked god , that he had singled out one of her children to dye in so good a cause . he was brought up in the grammar-school there , till he was fit for the university , for which he was designed by his father , whose desire was to have made him a clergy-man ; but he , considering with himself , that since his father's death , by many losses and crosses , the estate had been very much impaired , and that there were others beside himself to be brought up , and disposed of in the world , so that a tolerable university-maintenance could not be allowed him without crushing his mother , and brother and sisters , he resolved to betake himself to a trade . when his school-master heard of this , he was extreamly troubled ; for he looked on him as a boy of as great hopes as any he had taught ; and to divert him from his resolution , did promise and undertake , that amongst his friends and acquaintance he would procure him a maintenance , but the boy being unwilling to depend on such uncertainties made haste away up to london , in the year . where he was unfortunately bound apprentice to one thomas snowden a printer , and withal a furious bigotted fanatick ; who using to pray ( after his fashion ) every night in his family , never failed in one part of his prayer to blother out most malitious invectives and venomous imprecations against the church of england , and its members , especially the clergy . his new apprentice , who had been bred by his loyal parents in the doctrine and practice of the church of england , could not endure this ; but when his master fell to praying backwards , would get up on his feet , and manifestly shew his dislike . at first his master reproved him , and thought to have perswaded him with argument , but at that weapon the apprentice was too hard for him , which made his angry master have recourse to the argumentum bacillinum , thinking he would at least be able to cudgel his young man into fanaticism : but still as often as the master came to the malicious part of his prayers , so often the apprentice arose , though he was as often beaten for it ; till in the end his master perceived his immoveable resolution , and knowing that he could not justifie his own proceedings , gave him leave to pray his own way , and to go to church : but withall bore him such an eternal grudge for it , that he laid hold on all advantages imaginable to use him ill ; and by the silly oath he made against him at the tryal , any man would think , it stuck by him still . such doings made the apprentice so very uneasie , that about half of his time being served , after complaint made to the chamberlain , he was turned over to one miles fletcher , with whom he lived very comfortably the rest of his time , he respecting and faithfully serving his master , and his master entirely loving his apprentice . it is a trade wherein some excel in one part , and some in another ; but mr. anderton had attained to that perfection in it , that several skilful persons now give him the character , that take him for all parts of his trade together , he hath scarce left his fellow behind him in england . when this unnatural revolution was brought about , wherein men in the face of heaven forsoook and renounced those principles which before they had valued themselves upon , against and above all the world ; our sufferer chose the better , not the stronger side , adhereing to the orthodox not the apostate church of england , and being for true not sham-loyalty , which became the occasion of his glorious though untimely end . from the time of his commitment to the very moment of his death he was of a very even and sweet behaviour , being modestly couragious , chearful without lightness , and devout without ostentation . he made it his particular request , that some minister or ministers would be with him every morning and evening to read the prayers of the church , and perform such other offices as in such case as his did belong to that function , which except one day in the week was duly observed , and sometimes oftner ; for when any clergy came accidentally to visit him , if they did neglect to offer , he commonly requested them to pray with him . he gave little or no entertainment to any hopes of life , as being sensible that it was rather malice than matter against him ; and that a crime may be pardoned , but malice is not to be satisfied without the destruction of its enemy , if he once come in its power . he often express'd a great satisfaction in the cause for which he suffered ; saying , that it ministred to him both comfort and courage , and that he doubted not but that god would acquit whom the court had condemned . as to the ordinary , he indeed in point of conscience refused to communicate with him , yet mildly and modestly telling him that he was desirous to give him no trouble , and requested of him that he would not any ways concern himself with him or about him ; at which mr. smith fell into such an unseemly intemperate fit of rage , that he reviled the prisoner with bitter words , and very generously damned both him and all the ministers that came at him to hell : but he took it patiently , and returned not the least word that might seem to sound harshly . as his wife once laid her hand on his fetters and wept ; he intreated her to forbear , saying , he was less than a man that could not bear that , but that her tears were more grievous to him than his fetters : another time as he was hanging a link on the chair thereby to ease himself somewhat from the weight of his fetters , and perceiving his wife to look very heavily at it , he said chearfully to her , my dear , these are my arms alluding to the arms of their family , being sable , two single shack-bolts , and one-double argent , which if the criticks will give me leave ) i take to be very honourable bearing , as being originally given to such , who having behaved themselves valiantly in the holy wars , yet had the misfortune to be for some time made prisoners by the infidels ; or to such who did either by their prowess fetch off , or by their charity redeem such prisoners . but it would be endless to insist on these small matters , i will therefore hasten to the great and last act of this sad tragedy . when tucker told him that the dead warrant was come , and that he was in it ; he gave him thanks for giving him notice of it , that he might be sure he had now nothing else to do , but to prepare to dye ; saying further , the lord's will be done . he received the holy sacrament twice during his imprisonment ; but whether it be customary , or that they had particular order , the keeepers all ( except walker , who was all along not only civil , but even compassionate towards the prisoner ) the evening and morning before he suffered became exceeding rugged and harsh not only to him , but to all that came to him ; insomuch that his mother and brother coming that morning to receive the communion with him could neither beg nor buy admission ; and the poor old woman was forced to depart without joyning in the last act of christian communion with him , or so much as taking her intended last farewel of him ; which looks as if some persons took a pride in baseness and cruelty , and studiously set themselves to add to the sorrows of the afflicted . other very unbecoming actions towards him i could mention , which i shall forbear , being unwilling to set forth that barbarity which some delight to act . when he was brought down to go to the place of execution , he entred into the sledge , and rode along in it with that calm behaviour and decent courage , as stroke the beholders with remorse and amazement , and made his enemies gnash their teeth with indignation , to see him triumph over their malice even in his death . in his passage all the way the people rather seem'd sorrowful , than inclinable to offer any abuse , except near s. giles's church , where a rude fellow treated him with very spiteful language , to which he made no return , but lifting up his eyes to heaven , said , o sweet jesus ! how much more hast thou suffered for me and for mankind ? and shall not i learn of thee patiently to bear the undeserv'd reproaches of this inconsiderate man ? as he was coming up to the place of execution , a clergy-man , got up into the cart to be ready to receive him ; at which the ordinary seemed to be much incensed ; for he gave him very ill words , bidding him get him down , and saying , he ought not be there , nor should he be suffered ; the minister replyed little , but stayed still , till ( see how one ill nature helps another ) major richardson came up , and with threatnings and his cane lifted up forced him to come down , who immediately thereupon applied himself to the sheriffs ( for by this time they were come up ) when some ill person suggested that he was a papist , to which the prisoner presently answered , mr. sheriff , upon the words of a dying man he is not , but a minister of the church of england . i mention this purposely that people may take notice what ill use is made of the words papist and popery ; and how necessary it is that they were better understood : for to be called a papist is dangerous , but to be one or to teach the worst of popish doctrines is advantageous ; heretofore the power of deposing kings and equivocation , either as to oaths , promises , or any transactings were accounted popish doctrines , and those who owned them were universally condemned ; but now you have those very doctrines in every pulpit in the town , and the persons by all applauded . what preposterous doings are these , to hate the name and love the thing ? to knock an honest man o' th' head , for being maliciously and falsely called a papist , and to admire him for a saint who really acts upon popish principles , whilst he raiseth these scandals , and rails against popery ? whether may not people be led , who will suffer themselves to be thus deluded ? i pray god open their eyes , that they may see the things that belong to their peace , before they be hid from their eyes . due to return to our business , the ordinary made all the opposition he could ; but the sheriff granted the prisoner's request , bidding the ordinary hold his peace , and saying it was a thing never deny'd to a dying man. being in the cart , and also the prisoner's brother , he used an office which seemed to be collected out of several offices in the common-prayer book , with such small alterations as might serve to adapt them to the present occasion ; being since asked the reason , he said that he did it both for the authority of the thing , and also to avoid any cavils that might be made at , or any snares that might be laid for , any of his own conceptions . but but when he came to mention the creed he put these particular questions to the prisoner . do you believe these articles which you are now about to rehearse with me , to contain that faith which hath all along been received by the church of christ ? and particularly by the church of england ? and is this the faith wherein you die , and wherein you hope for salvation ? the prisoner making answer , i do so believe , and am now ready to die in that faith , and in that faith hope for salvation . then said the minister , if so , say after me : then they repeated the creed , raising their voices somewhat higher than ordinary ; after that the minister asked him several questions concerning his repentance , his charity , his endeavours o● restitution for any wrongs by him done his forgiving of others any wrongs done to him , and the like . and then , at the earnest request of the dying man he denounced the absolution , then proceeding to divers other prayers they concluded with that sentence in the office for the burial of the dead : o holy and merciful saviour , thou must worthy judge eternal , suffer me not at my hast hour for any pains of death to fall from thee . this being over , the minister ( whether that he could not endure to see the man die , or that he would not communicate with the ordinary , or for some other reason best known to himself , ) after he had particularly embraced mr. anderton , fervently recommended his soul to god , and taken his last farewel of him , went down out of the cart : the sheriffs civilly commanded a way to be made , and were readily obeyed , he passing through the crowd , not only with ease but respect . during the time the prisoner was at his private devotions , an order came to remit the quartering of his body , which being by some thought a reprieve , it was handed to him , and having read it , and finding it no more , he returned it , saying , i thank you mr. sheriff , the will of the lord be done . having leave from the sheriffs to speak his mind if he had any thing to say to the people ; he began to speak , but being troublesomely interrupted by the ordinary , and also finding he could not be heard , he desired a speech he had prepared might be taken out of his pocket and given to the sheriffs , to be by them printed , or disposed as they thought fit , which hath been since printed , and is as followeth : to my countrymen , liberty and property hath for some years made an hideous cry in these kingdoms , and nothing more than the rights and privileges of the subject is the pretence of our present deliverers ; and doubtless it was for the sake of these that so many of my insatuated and blind countrymen rebell'd against their lawful and injur'd monarch , whilst religion ( rebellions umbrage ) was made the covert of the hidden designs of those who have now demonstratively shewn , that they sought nothing less than our ruin : and that these were only pretences to gain their ends , the very blind , although they cannot see , yet must certainly feel it . under the like pretences do our deliverers still continue to deliver us even from what they please , that they think will but in the least help to effect what they came for : under the notion of the necessity of a war , they deliver us from our mony , and from our traffick and commerce , by which so great a part of the kingdom is sustained : under the notion of carrying it on , they kidnap our young men , the flower of our kingdom , and directly contrary to law transport them ; and to save their own foreigners put them in them first onsets of their battles , as the heathens did the christians of old , that their enemies swords might be blunted with killing them , before they came to encounter them : they exhaust all our stores both for sea and land , and carry away all our artillery ; and if any man seem but to disapprove of these their proceedings under the notion of law they murther him : nay , if they do but so much as suppose him not to be on their side , he must be a traitor , and no matter what the law says , they say he shall die . can any thing be more plain to demonstrate this than my present case ? my supposed crime was printing , and all that the witnesses could personally say against me , was , that i was a man against the government , and had called the prince of orange hook-nose , though i protest i never did ; not one of them could say , nor did they offer to say , that i ever printed the books of which they accuse me , or procured them to be printed , or published any of them , or that the materials were mine , or that i hired the room where they were found ; but i was an ill man , and that was sufficient : by which 't is plain , that they were resolved right or wrong to have my life . that they designed not to try but to convict me is as plain ; for they refused positively to allow me counsel to such matters of law , as was never refused to any before ; and though i caused several statutes to be read , some to prove that there must be two witnesses at least to the fact ; others , that though there had been two , as there was not one , yet positively declared that it was not treason : nay , the very last session of parliament was it enacted , that the printer of seditious and treasonable books should for the first offence be punished no otherwise than not to follow his trade for three years , and for the second offence never to follow it more , and such farther punishment as seemed fit to the court , not extending to life or limb. now though mine ( had it been proved ) had but been the first , yet you see contrary and in direct opposition to the law , they make it high treason : and when the jury could not agree to find me guilty , and came down to ask the court , whether the finding these things there , and supposing them to be mine , since it could not be prov'd that i printed these books , or had made any use of them , could affect my life ? i say , when the jury asked this question , and the lord chief justice treby told them positively , no , it did not ; yet withal he told them , that that was not their business , their business was to find me guilty of printing : and while they stayed , the court frown'd upon them to that degree , that the foreman told them , he was not to be frighted ; upon which they publickly reviled them , calling them , ill men , ill subjects , and a pack of knaves ; and so terrified them into a compliance . that this is true , those who were near know too well , although the partial writer of the tryals hath most perfidiously published not only an unfair , imperfect , and lame account , but hath also stuff'd it with down-right untruths and falshoods , and left out whatsoever made for me ; not so much as mentioning the contradictions of the witnesses in what they did swear , their swearing to some things that made for me , and when i took hold of them they denied them , nor hath he in the least told the world of the judg's over-ruling whatsoever i offered , without giving any other answer than that it should be so because they would have it so ; with many other such things , which the conscientious auditors can testify . and now i pray consider where is this liberty and property ? where the rights and privileges of the subject ? nay , where the very laws themselves ? and consequently where is the security of any man ? why , even in the deliverers pockets , where your money is , and where also without all doubt , if you look not well to your selves , your estates e're long will be likewise . what are the proceedings but arbitrary in a superlative manner , and such as no reign ever produced before ? these were they you were heretofore only afraid of , being jealous without just cause ; but now you see them actually come upon you . i hope you your selves will put a stop to them , by laying these proceedings before the parliament , for had it been sitting at this present these proceedings durst not have been practised ; and i pray god to put so speedy an end to them , that as i am the first , so i may be the last that may suffer by them . i have hitherto lived a member of the orthodox church of england as by law established , and i declare i now die in the unity of the same : therefore , according to its discipline , i hold my self obliged to ask pardon of the whole world , of every particular person whom i have any ways offended ; and i do freely and sincerely forgive every one that has offended me , particularly my most false and perjured witnesses , and among them more particularly robin stephens , my most unjust and unrighteous judges , and my repenting jury ; and i pray god may not lay this their sin of wilful murther to their charge at the general bar , where they shall appear as criminals , and not judges . may the almighty bless , preserve , prosper and restore our sovereign lord king james , to the just possession of his indubitable lawful crowns ; strengthen him that he may vanquish and overcome all his enemies here on earth , and crown him with eternal glory hereafter : and that he may never want heirs to inherit his crown , bless i beseech thee , o god , his royal highness the prince of wales , and give him such a numerable issue , that there may never want one of his loins to sway the scepters of these kingdoms so long as sun or moon endure . amen . amen . william anderton . june . . several sorts of men have their several objections against this poor man's speech , which he wrote the day before he dyed , between the hours of eight and one , being fourteen times interrupted in the writing of it , and forced to convey a copy of it through a key-hole to a friend , least it should be taken from him . some complain , that he did not pray for the queen ; but these surely forget what man they have to do with . formerly in such cases men used to pray for their king ; and when they were acquitteed used to say , god bless the king , without any further notice of other persons , unless there were particular reason for it : but since a joint regency hath been set up , it hath followed in course that they pray'd for the king and queen ; but he was a man who would not countenance this , or take any notice of it , and therefore used the old form and way , not caring who excepted against it . but if any honourers of their queen by mistake except these , they may know , that he honoured her as much as they ; and doubtless she will believe no less of him , who prayed so heartily for the prince of wales , the son of her womb , his majesties care , and all their good subjects hopes . others alledge , that it hath too much levity in it for the speech of a dying man , and for that reason quarrel with the word kidnapping in it , and that is the very term now by all used , and by which all men express and understand the fact signified by it ; and he that would speak to be understood by all , should speak in the language used by all : when words are new and fresh , they carry along with them somewhat of the lightness , quaintness , or other particular humour or quality of the first deviser , but when they are once appropriated and naturalized by use , that humour is lost , and they become in some measure necessary ; and he that will find fault with a man for speaking as other men do , perhaps will find in the end , that more will find fault with him . on the quite contrary , there are others who are as much displeased with the sharpness and severity of it ; so difficult a matter it is to please all palats . but this is only in that part of his speech , where his subject matter plainly engaged him to speak somewhat after that manner ; and therefore the objectors ought to consider , that there are some things in their own nature so harsh and ungrateful , that a man cannot mention them without seeming to grate or bite ; but then how evil and severe are those things themselves ? and if a man must necessarily speak of such matters , they ought to lay the blame on the things , which extort from a man such severity of language , not on the man , who speaks properly and according to the nature of the things , which was always esteemed a virtue and commendation . some persons can find fault with the excellencies of a man , as i remember it was one objection against mr. ashton's paper , that he reasoned too logically : the same crime i am apt to think will never be objected to him , who pick'd the quarrel . were any of these smooth men to suffer in the same manner with such kind of justice as mr. anderton had , perhaps it might set their tongues and pens on edge to speak and write as severe truth as he did . there are others , who employ time , which might be better spent in seeking or making exceptions against this brave man ; but i will leave them with trinculo to mutiny by themselves ; i wish all of them had seen him and conversed with him in the time of his confinement ; they then would rather have admired him , than disparaged him ; a man upon whom the terrours of death made no impression ; no man that came to him could ever discover any the least sign of fear , or perturbation of mind in him , but found him always in the same sweet even temper , excepting only in his devotions and exercises of religion , wherein he was very fervent and vehement , as powring out all his soul to his god. to carp and cavil is no hard matter , but to die is not so very easie ; and i hope i shall be thought to make no ill wish , if i wish that those who are so ready to censure , may be able to make as brave and as christian an end , as this poor man did , who is persecuted both living and dead . during the time that the ordinary busied himself , he was observed not to mind him , but to imploy himself in his private devotions , and after the delivery of his speech to the sheriffs , his cap pulled over his eyes ready for execution , he prayed thus ; most great and most merciful lord god! do thou look down upon me thy poor unworthy servant in this hour of my great extremity , and have mercy upon me . sweet jesus , receive my soul into thine everlasting kingdom , for into thy hands do i commend my spirit , because thou hast redeemed it , o lord god of truth ! come lord jesus , and receive my pretious soul , father of mercy have mercy upon me ; o god the son , redeemer of the world , have mercy upon me ; lord , comfort and support my soul in these my last minutes , come sweet jesus , come quickly , and save me sweet jesus by thy most pretious blood , by thy agony and bloody sweat , and by the coming of the holy ghost , o lord , do thou deliver me . here the ordinary put in saying , you must give a sign when you are ready ; whereupon the sheriffs charged him not to interrupt them ; and as he was proceeding his sister desired to speak to him , which was granted ; who kissing him and weeping over him said , be of good comfort though there is no pardon for you here yet there is above . so when they had taken a christian leave of each other , he returned to his devotions , when after a short pathetical prayer constantly calling upon his saviour the cart drove away . his body was conveyed to a house near , till the dusk of the evening , and then brought to town , both for quietness sake and to prevent giving offence ; but as privately as it was done , that blood-hound stephens pursu'd him dead , and was observed to walk several times by the house , and to give notice to the mob ; so that he who was designed to have been stollen to his grave by a few friends late in the night , was follow'd by a very numerous train , but without any manner of incivility , and now lies interr'd in little s. bartholomew's church-yard , expecting a joyful resurrection , and the coming of the righteous judge , before whom william and mary , anderton and treby shall appear without any other difference or respect , than what their sins or their virtues shall make ; and from whom they shall receive according to what they have done in the flesh , be it good or evil . finis . the speech of maj. gen. harison, upon his arraignment, tryal, and condemnation; with the sentence of death pronounced against him, to be hang'd, drawn, and quarter'd as also the speeches of alderman tich mr. burn, hugh peters, col. axtel, and col. lilburn; at the sessions house in the old bayley, before the most honourable lords, and others his majesties commissioners of oyer and terminer; upon the reading of the charge and indictment of high-treason, that they had wilfully, maliciously, and trayterously, advised, abetted, assisted, contrived, and compassed the death of our late dread soveraign charles the first by the grace of god of ever blessed memory king of england, scotland, france, and ireland, defender of the faith, &c. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a of text r in the english short title catalog (wing h a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from -bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo a wing h a estc r this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons . universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase , no. a ) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set ) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, - ; : ) the speech of maj. gen. harison, upon his arraignment, tryal, and condemnation; with the sentence of death pronounced against him, to be hang'd, drawn, and quarter'd as also the speeches of alderman tich mr. burn, hugh peters, col. axtel, and col. lilburn; at the sessions house in the old bayley, before the most honourable lords, and others his majesties commissioners of oyer and terminer; upon the reading of the charge and indictment of high-treason, that they had wilfully, maliciously, and trayterously, advised, abetted, assisted, contrived, and compassed the death of our late dread soveraign charles the first by the grace of god of ever blessed memory king of england, scotland, france, and ireland, defender of the faith, &c. axtel, daniel, d. . lilburne, robert, - . peters, hugh, - . [ ], [ ] p. printed for charles gustavus, london : . reproduction of original in the folger shakespeare library. eng harrison, thomas, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . axtel, daniel, d. -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . lilburne, robert, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . peters, hugh, - -- trials, litigation, etc. -- early works to . charles -- i, -- king of england, - -- early works to . trials (treason) -- early works to . regicides -- early works to . last words -- early works to . great britain -- history -- puritan revolution, - -- early works to . great britain -- history -- commonwealth and protectorate, - -- early works to . a r (wing h a). civilwar no the speech of maj. gen. harison, upon his arraignment, tryal, and condemnation; with the sentence of death pronounced against him, to be han [no entry] d the rate of defects per , words puts this text in the d category of texts with between and defects per , words. - tcp assigned for keying and markup - aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images - mona logarbo sampled and proofread - mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited - pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the speech of maj. gen. harison , upon his arraignment , tryal , and condemnation ; with the sentence of death pronounced against him , to be hang'd , drawn , and quarter'd . as also the speeches of alderman tich mr. burn , hugh peters , col. axtel , and col. lilburn ; at the sessions house in the old bayley , before the most honourable lords , and others his majesties commissioners of oyer and terminer ; upon the reading of the charge and indictment of high-treason , that they had wilfully , maliciously , and trayterously , advised , abetted , assisted , contrived , and compassed the death of our late dread soveraign charles the first by the grace of god of ever blessed memory king of england , scotland , france , and ireland , defender of the faith , &c. london , printed for charles gustavus , . the speech of major gen. harrison , sir hardress waller , and hugh peters , at justice-hall in the old-bayley ; upon the reading of the bills of indictment , &c. the bill of indictment being ( on tuesday last ) read at hicks-hall , against those unjust judges , who contriv'd , arraign'd sentenc'd , and executed that most vertuous prince our late soveraign king charles the first of ever blessed memory ; and the said bill being found by the grand jury of knights and gentlem●n of quality of the county of middlesex , on wednesday ( octob. . ) twenty eight of those whom the grand jury had found , were brought from the tower to justice hall in the old bayley before the most honorable lords , and other his majesties c●mmissioners of oyer & terminer ; the names of the prisoners were , sir hardress waller , thomas harrison , robert tichburne , william heveningham , henry marten , robert lilburne , john carew , isaac pennington , owen roe , john jones , john cook , henry smith , john downs , george fleetwood , thomas wait , simon meye , hugh peters , thomas scot , gilbert millington , adrian scroop , gregory clement , edmund harvey , vincent potter , augustine garland , james temple , francis hacker , peter temple , daniel axtel . the court being sate , called three prisoners to the bar , viz. sir hardress waller , col. harrison , william h●venningham . the first was sir hardress waller , which with the two others were indicted to this purpose following : that they together with oliver cromwel , henry ireton , robert titchbourn , isaac pennington , robert lilburn , john hewson late of the city of westminster shoo-maker , &c. had wilfully , maliciously , and traterously , advised , abetted , assisted , contrived , and compassed the death of our late dread soveraign charles the first , by the grace of god of ever blessed memory , king of england , scotland , france , and ireland , defender of the faith , &c. sir hardress waller began to excuse his long being out of england , and unacquaintance with english affairs ; but eing bid to answer positively , whether he was guilty or not guilty of the high treason whereof he had been indicted , and then arraigned , answered , guilty . the next was col. thomas harison , who at the first refused to hold up his hand , till the lord chief baron , judge forster , and other judges told him his duty in that particular : after which , he said , i confess it is but a formality , and therefore i will do it ; and so held up his hand : bu● several times offered to sally out into discourses , refusing to answer guilty or not guilty , till the judges declared the necessity of answ●ring one of the two , which they were forced to do divers times before he would be brought to give an answer , but at last he did , and said , not guilty . william heveningham answered the like ; but col. george fleetwood pleaded guilty without any demur . these being dismist , isaac pennington , henry marten , gilbert millington , robert titchbourn , owen roe , robert lilbourn , were called to the bar. isaac penningtons age gave him not time to make long apologies , for he very suddenly answered not guilty ; so did gilbert millington , and owen roe . henry marten being the next began to quibble with the court , and to deny his name to be mentioned in the act ; whereupon the court were put to the trouble of calling for the act of oblivion , and there read his name ; but he answered , that his name was marten not martin , as in the act expressed . but being told they knew him to be the man , let his name be what it would , was bid to answer , who then said , not guilty . titchbourn being next , began to excuse his want of skill in law affairs ; pleading , that he was before very wise , learned , and judicious lawyers , and that being unable to plead for himself , desired the court to assign him councel to assist him therein : to which it was answered , that he was not yet come to his tryal , but onely arraigned ; and asked him guilty or not guilty ? to which he could not tell what to answer ; he said he did acknowledge part of the indictment . but being told he must say guilty or not ; answered , not guilty . so did lilburn and all the rest . col. daniel axtel desired he might have the liberty of an english-man , that the law was his birth right , and so he might lawfully claim it , that he did conceive there was law in his case , and so desired to have councel in it , that he did believe the parliament — but there he was bid to plead to the indictment , guilty or not guilty ; which after much roving , and being told the danger of standtng mute , he answered , why then , not guilty . and being asked by whom he would be tryed he did not answer ; at which one bid him answer , by god and his countrey . but he answered , he could not do so ; for he did not believe god to be there . in conclusion , he said , he would be tryed by the lord iesus christ , and by his countrey , hugh peters being asked whether he was guilty of the high treason whereof he was indicted , he lifted up his hands and eyes , and said ; guilty ? no not for ten thousand worlds . 't is probable , he may have regret of conscience , for ushering in his former doctrines ( or rather blasphemies ) of heresies and rebellions ; and with the penitent thus contemplate with a ferve●t spirit o miserable and wretched souls , to use such barbarisme against our gracious soveraign , and protes●●●● 〈…〉 ay the wisest of men and the b●st of princes . o s●d and mis●rable are all those who have committed such horrid impiety in the assassinating of their most gracious soveraign , that whosoever heard thereof ▪ it could not but make both his ears to tingle , his heart to faint , and his knees to tremble . o it was we that in a tumultuous and disloyal way made covenants to oppose the king , and countenance that empostress maiden who ( pretending to enthusiasmes ) perswaded the people to rebellion , and blasphemed christ by the name of covenanting iesus . it was we that was the cause of the late execrable miseries throughout the three kingdoms ; good god what advocate shall we have to plead for us at the barre of gods iudgement , now ●hou art calling for us to make an account of these things ? when inquisition is made for blood , and the cry of the soules under the altar shall obtain their desired vengeance upon us . how hath every loyal bre●st shrunk ▪ and every faithful soul thrill'd at the horror of that fatal blow , which at one stroak murdered not onely one prince , but three kings in one , the best of men , and three kingdoms , the most flourishing of all people , and in them the most royal blood of imperial majesty , the purest of all religions , the justest of all laws , the wisest constitution of all governments , and ( had we known our own happiness ) the happiest of all people ? what tongue of men or angels can sufficiently express the detestation of that bloody fact that separated the best of heads from so lovely a body ? the best of kings from his most loyal subjects ? the best of husbands from a most affectionate wife ? the best of fathers from most sweet and dutiful children ? and the best of masters from thousands of most happy servants . in a word , the horridness of that transcendent impiety was such , that ( next to the murdering of our most blessed saviour ) it was the most accursed act that ever yet was perpetrated upon the face of the earth . on thursday major general harrison was again brought to the bar , and pleading to his indictment , after some time spent thereupon , he was brought in guilty , and received sentence to be drawn , hanged , and quartered ; upon pronouncing whereof , he said , the lords will be done , although ye kill the body , yet ye cannot hurt the soul . finis .